Sitting of 7 May 1963

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
PRIVATE BUSINESS

  KILLINGHOLME JETTY BILL
  [Queen's Consent, on behalf of the Crown, signified]
  Bill read the Third time and passed.

  BRITISH RAILWAYS BILL
  As amended, considered; to be read the Third time.
FACTORY LANE, WARRINGTON (LEVEL CROSSING) BILL [Lords]
  LONDON COUNTY COUNCIL (GENERAL POWERS) BILL [Lords]
    LONDON COUNTY COUNCIL (MONEY) BILL
    Read a Second time and committed.
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  PUBLIC BUILDING AND WORKS

    National Buildings Record (Architectural Photographs)
    Mr. Robert Cookeasked the Minister of Public Building and Works whether he will make available to the National Buildings Record those architectural photographs in the possession of his Department not now available for public inspection at the National Buildings Record.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Public Building and Works (Mr. Richard Sharples): Yes, Sir.
    Mr. Cooke: I thank my hon. Friend for his reply. Will he bear in mind that there are many architectural photographs of great use to the National Buildings Record in the possession of other public
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    bodies such as the British Travel and Holidays Association? Will he use his offices to get those put into the National Buildings Record?
    Mr. Sharples: Yes, Sir. I will certainly look at the point which my hon. Friend has raised.

    St. James's Park (Pelican)
    Mr. Stodartasked the Minister of Public Buildings and Works whether, in view of the fact that spring has now officially arrived, he will provide a companion for the pelican in St. James's Park.
    The Minister of Public Building and Works (Mr. Geoffrey Rippon): I hope that Paul will not be lonely much longer as His Highness the Ameer of Bahawalpur, has very generously offered to send him companions.
    Mr. Stodart: Is my right hon. Friend aware of the great joy that this announcement will give to the pelican in the park? Has he noticed the indications in recent days of a desire for companionship? May I assume from what my right hon. Friend has just said that he is possessed of knowledge, which was denied to his predecessors, about the sex of pelicans? If he is not possessed of such knowledge, would he consider obtaining a larger number of pelicans so that the law of average might thereby give nature a better chance of taking its course?
    Mr. Rippon: It is difficult to find out the sex of pelicans, but so far we have been fairly accurate. It is rather an academic question because no eggs have been laid, much less hatched, by any of these birds, and we have been keeping them since the time of Charles II.

    Building Work (Statistics)
    Mr. Boydenasked the Minister of Public Bui ding and Works if he will devise an index of building work in progress and completed compiled on a comparable basis for each month, or convenient period, and so constructed as to show the amount of work being done and completed in the main branches of the industry.
    Mr. Sharples: I am grateful to the hon. Member for his suggestion. We will bear it in mind in the consideration

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    we are now giving to the improvement of statistics about building work.
    Mr. Boyden: I am very glad to hear that Answer and I hope that the Minister will pursue the matter with vigour. Is he aware that it is not much use getting the building industry to be much more scientific if the actual administrative controls are not equally scientific? Will he pursue this question with energy?
    Mr. Sharples: Yes, Sir. We have recently set up an economic intelligence unit at the Ministry and the need is probably for better local information so that the trend of the load of work in different parts of the country can be seen more clearly.

    Building Components (Standardisation)
    Mr. Boydenasked the Minister of Public Building and Works what steps he has taken to secure the co-operation of the building industry in increasing the amount of standardisation of components used in building, and with what results.
    Mr. Rippon: I am in constant touch with all sections of the building and building materials industries and with the associated professions on this as on all matters affecting the construction industries.
    As a result of the first statement on dimensional co-ordination which I issued in February the British Standards Institution is preparing draft British Standards on floor to floor heights and on staircases. I will be issuing further statements on dimensional co-ordination in due course.
    Mr. Boyden: Would the right hon. Gentleman agree that among small builders and the brick-making industry there is considerable opposition to proposals which have been made? What is he doing to reconcile those interests with those of the makers of prefabricated buildings?
    Mr. Rippon: I have not found this opposition. In my statement yesterday, when I was opening a very good new brickworks, I said that I saw no reason to change the size of bricks and that we could build up our dimensional pattern, as it were, without altering the size of bricks.
    Mr. R. W. Elliott: Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that one of the con-
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    clusions of the Report on the Production of Building Components in Shipyards was that local authorities might, with considerable advantage, form themselves into housing consortia? Would he agree that standardisation of component parts would be very desirable in shipbuilding areas in order that shipyards with their spare capacity might more quickly play a part in the housing drive?
    Mr. Rippon: I am sure that there are many variations in the size of components which have nothing whatever to do with design. I think that standardisation will help in all these directions.

    Embassies (Interior Decoration)
    Mrs. Emmetasked the Minister of Public Building and Works whether officials advising on the interior decoration of embassies abroad are specially qualified or have refresher courses; and how many qualified women are employed on this duty.
    Mr. SharpLes: The architects responsible for designing and maintaining embassies and high commissioners' residences abroad are also responsible for their interior decoration, and work in conjunction with furnishing experts in our Supplies Division. Two women on the Chief Architect's staff, who hold the diploma of decoration at London University, are available to give expert advice. My right hon. Friend also has the benefit of the advice of an Advisory Committee on Decoration and Furnishing, appointed by his predecessor in 1960, which includes two women amongst its members.
    Mrs. Emmet: Is my hon. Friend aware that, in spite of these apparently excellent arrangements, when one travels around our embassies and high commissions one is struck by the lack of imagination and appreciation of historical circumstances which might have helped in the decoration of the house, and that perhaps a slightly stronger feminine element in his Department might be helpful?
    Mr. Sharples: It is always difficult to meet everybody's taste in matters of this kind, but I hope that my hon. Friend will pay a visit to the embassy in Warsaw, which is now being furnished, as soon as it is completed.

    Historic Buildings (Guide Books and Postcards)
    Mr. R. W. Elliottasked the Minister of Public Building and Works what increase in sales of guide books and postcards of historic buildings has taken place during the last twelve months.
    Mr. Rippon: In 1962 nearly £125,000 was received from sales of guide books, postcards and colour slides at ancient monuments in my care, an increase of £19,000 over the previous year.
    Mr. Elliott: I thank my right hon. Friend for that very pleasing reply. Will he continue to improve and increase these publications, bearing in mind their highly important effect on the tourist trade?
    Mr. Rippon: I should have added that the figure includes sales at historic buildings as well as ancient monuments. I quite agree that these are important. We have increased sales quite dramatically over the past few years.

    Hampton Court
    Mr. R. W. Elliottasked the Minister of Public Building and Works what increased public access he proposes to allow to newly restored parts of Hampton Court.
    Mr. SharpLes: Two late Tudor rooms, near the Wolsey Suite, are to be repaired this year, and then opened to the public as part of the tour of the State Apartments. A small collection of exhibits associated with Hampton Court Palace will be shown in these rooms and the adjoining Wolsey Suite. The Cumberland Suite, on the east side of Clock Court, is also to be restored this year, and the public will be admitted when work is completed.
    Mr. Elliott: I thank my hon. Friend for that reply. Will he continue to publicise Hampton Court, which is as historic a palace as any in Europe?
    Mr. Sharples: Yes, Sir. I agree with my hon. Friend.

    Historic Buildings (Operatic, Musical or Theatrical Performances)
    Mr. Goodhewasked the Minister of Public Building and Works what operatic, musical or theatrical perform-
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    ances are planned in 1963 at historic buildings under his control.
    Mr. Rippon: Arrangements have been made for performances of various kinds during 1963 at the Tower of London; Edinburgh Castle; St. Andrew's Cathedral; Audley End, Saffron Walden; Old Sarum, Wiltshire; and Pevensey Castle, Sussex. I will, with permission, circulate the details in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mr. Goodhew: Can my right hon. Friend tell the House whether these include any son et lumière performances?
    Mr. Rippon: There will be a season of son et lumière at the Tower of London from the end of May to the end of September.
    Mr. G. Thomas: Did i hear the Minister mention any Welsh places among those names?
    Mr. Rippon: Unfortunately, no; but we shall always be delighted to receive proposals for occasions of this kind which are in keeping with the great historic Welsh castles and other buildings.
    The following are the details:
    Tower of London
    A season of son et lumière, extending from the end of May to the end of September.
    Edinburgh Castle
    Edinburgh Tattoo—3 weeks in August and September.
    Audley End, Saffron Walden
    A concert by the Saffron Walden Musical Society, on 27th May.
    Old Sarum, Wiltshire
    A performance of "Cymbeline" by the Studio Theatre Club, Salisbury, on 17th-20th July.
    Pevensey Castle. Sussex
    A play by the Trinity Players on 5th June, and performances of Richard III by the Eastbourne Shakespeare Society on 24th-29th June.
    St. Andrew's Cathedral
    A Masque took place in April.

    New Government Buildings (Bridge Street)
    Mr. Goodhewasked the Minister of Public Building and Works what progress has been made in the design of new Government buildings for Bridge Street and Parliament Street, Westminster.
    Mr. Rippon: Sir William Holford is engaged on an appreciation of the site and an outline plan for its development.
    Mr. Goodhew: I thank my right hon. Friend for that news, which will be welcome to all hon. Members. Can he tell us whether some sort of design will be available at an early stage for hon. Members to see?
    Mr. Rippon: I hope that Sir William Holford's outline proposals will be ready during the summer. I will, of course, keep the House fully informed of the way in which this is developing.
    Mr. C. Pannell: Will the right hon. Gentleman represent to the Leader of the House, and, if necessary, to the Prime Minister, the necessity of setting up, in co-operation with Mr. Speaker, an accommodation committee—a committee of Members of the House—so that we shall not be faced in the end with a building that we do not like and accommodation not suitable to us? Could not we have a committee of Members of this House to watch over the building of this Parliamentary precinct, in exactly the same way as we had a committee set up under Lord Winterton during the rebuilding of the Palace of Westminster, after it was bombed? I am sure that he will be seized of that.
    Mr. Rippon: I shall convey the hon. Gentleman's views to the appropriate quarters. I am sure that we are all aiming at the same objective.
    Sir G. Nabarro: Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind the archaic practice of Members of Parliament having to dictate correspondence to secretaries seated at their elbows, who might usefully be replaced by dictating machines, installed at Government expense, in each room used by Members for dictating in such a new building?
    Mr. Rippon: I shall consider that.

    London Zoo (Parking Facilities)
    Mr. W. T. Rodgersasked the Minister of Public Building and Works how many cars will be accommodated in the new parking facilities to be provided as part of the major reconstruction now taking place at the London Zoo in Regent's Park.
    Mr. Sharples: We are informed by the Zoo authorities that no new parking facilities, apart from minor additions, are being provided.
    Mr. Rodgers: Does the Parliamentary Secretary realise what alarming news that is? The reconstruction of London Zoo is designed, after all, to increase the number of visitors. Would he not agree that in this sphere where the Government have decisive influence, they ought to be showing some anxiety to help solve the urban traffic problem?
    Mr. Sharples: Our responsibility in this is that of landlords to the Zoo. It is for the Zoo authority to work out its plans and for the planning authority, the London County Council, to approve the scale of parking facilities provided.
    Mr. Rodgers: Does that mean that the Government have not been consulted? If they have been consulted, what recommendations have they made about the need to provide parking provision to allow for up to 2 million visitors in every year?
    Mr. Sharples: This is particularly a matter for the London County Council as the planning authority. Our concern is only as landlords.
    Sir J. Langford-Holt: Does not this go further than that? Is not my hon. Friend aware that the scandalously inadequate parking facilities are over-employed and that the overflow goes into a Royal Park—Regent's Park? Is not my hon. Friend directly responsible for that?
    Mr. Sharples: No Sir. We provide car parks at Gloucester Slips and there is room there for about 400 cars. That can take all the cars necessary at the moment.

    Departmental Staff, Scotland
    Mr. W. Hamiltonasked the Minister of Public Building and Works what proportion of his staff is situated in Scotland; and whether he will consider further dispersal from London in conformity with the declared policy of Her Majesty's Government.
    Mr. Sharples: About one-twelfth of the staff of the Department in the United Kingdom work in Scotland. We are examining the organisation of the Department following the transfer of responsibility for works for the Service Departments and intend that all works in Scotland shall be designed and controlled in Scotland unless there are exceptional reasons for other arrangements.
    Mr. Hamilton: Does not the hon. Gentleman agree that in principle Government Departments should give a lead in the policy of dispersal of Government employees from London to the provinces? Will he give an assurance that his Department will be one of the pioneers in the advocacy of that principle?
    Mr. Sharples: Yes, Sir. That is, of course, a matter which we are examining carefully, and it certainly is our intention to do that.

    Royal Palaces (Deep Shelters)
    Mr. W. Hamiltonasked the Minister of Public Building and Works what provision for deep shelters is being made from public funds at the Royal Palaces for protection in the event of nuclear attack.
    Mr. Nippon: None, Sir.
    Mr. Hamilton: Does the Minister's Answer imply that the Government are writing off not only the mass of the civilian population but what are commonly described as the "top people"? Can the right hon. Gentleman give the House an assurance that in the event of a nuclear attack the civilian population and Royalty will be protected adequately by the provision of deep air raid shelters?
    Mr. Rippon: The Answer implies exactly what is says, that no burden is being placed on public funds. That was the Question which the hon. Gentleman asked. If he wishes to ask other Questions, he should put them on the Order Paper.
    Mr. Hamilton: Is the Minister aware that I have repeatedly tried to get details of the provision made in the Civil Estimates, and the right hon. Gentleman repeatedly refuses to give detailed information?

    Housing
    Mr. Frank Allaunasked the Minister of Public Building and Works (1) what percentage of the gross national product in Great Britain is devoted to council housing; and what was the proportion ten years ago;
    (2) what percentage of the gross national product in Great Britain is directed to housing; what was the pro-
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    portion ten years ago; and what information he has from the Organisation for European Co-operation and Development as to the approximate proportion in other West European countries.
    Mr. Sharples: The percentage of the gross national product in the United Kingdom devotes to housing was 3·5 in both 1952 and 1962. The percentage devoted to council housing was 2·5 in 1952 and 1·2 in 1962. With permission I will circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT figures for the precentages of gross national product devoted in 1960 to housing in seventeen Western European countries, taken from a United Nations publication.
    Mr. Allaun: As more than 18 million people in Britain receive less than £15 10s. a week, and therefore cannot afford to buy their own houses, how does the Parliamentary Secretary advise them to find homes if council housing is cut in this way? Regarding the percentage, is not it true that we are bottom of the "league" of the ten countries listed in the O.E.C.D, Report for November, 1962, and that some countries spend twice as much as we do in this proportion? Surely the Minister must have some regard for the massive human suffering caused to millions of families which cannot find homes of their own?
    Mr. Sharples: I understand that my right hon. Friend the Minister of Housing and Local Government will be making a statement shortly. He has already announced that local authorities with urgent housing needs will be allowed to build as many houses this year as they can. I do not think that the figures entirely bear out what the hon. Gentleman says. They are not strictly comparable. For example, the international definition of expenditure devoted to construction lays down that expenditure on conversions should be included, but in the United Kingdom this has not been done. Regarding the final point put by the hon. Gentleman, 66,000 more houses were completed in. 1962 than in 1952 and I think that what matters is the total number of houses completed.
    Lord Balniel: Are not we impressively high in the Teague of home ownership?
    Sir G. Nabarro: We are top of the league.
    Mr. C. Pannell: Whether we are top of the league in home ownership is entirely another matter. There is the difficulty about whether this Ministry—[HON. MEMBERS: "Ask a Question."]—I am coming to the question—should answer this Question. Does not the Minister appreciate, from the point of view of public policy, that local authorities allocate houses on the usual priorities, whereas whether a person owns a home depends at present on the length of his purse? Is not there a question of public policy in this and is not the Ministry thoroughly ashamed?
    Mr. Sharples: I think that we are straying into the territory of my right hon. Friend the Minister of Housing and Local Government.
    Following are the figures:

    Gross Fixed Capital Formation in Housing as Percentage of Gross National Product: 1960

    (Extracted from the Annual Bulletin of Housing and Building Statistics for Europe published by the Office of the United Nations in Geneva.)

    per cent.

    Austria

    …

    …

    …

    4·5

    Belgium

    …

    …

    …

    5·0

    Denmark

    …

    …

    …

    3·0

    Finland

    …

    …

    …

    5·7

    France

    …

    …

    …

    5·2

    Greece

    …

    …

    …

    5·3

    Ireland

    …

    …

    …

    1·9

    Italy

    …

    …

    …

    5·5

    Netherlands

    …

    …

    …

    4·3

    Norway

    …

    …

    …

    3·9

    Portugal

    …

    …

    …

    3·1

    Sweden

    …

    …

    …

    5·1

    Switzerland

    …

    …

    …

    7·0

    Turkey

    …

    …

    …

    n.a.(4·2–1959)

    United Kingdom

    …

    …

    …

    3·0

    Yugoslavia

    …

    …

    …

    n.a.(4·7–1959)

    Western Germany

    …

    …

    …

    5·4

    Shipyards (Building Components)
    Mr. Sorensenasked the Minister of Public Building and Works if he will give further details of the proposed use of shipyards for the making of prefabricated dwellings, particularly their approximate cost, the time taken in their construction, the procedure for their allocation, and the number of types of dwellings.
    Mr. Rippon: I can add nothing at present to what is said in the Report which I have published on the Produc-
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    tion of Building Components in Shipyards, and to the replies I gave to Questions in the House on 30th April.
    Mr. Sorensen: Is the Minister satisfied that the points in my Question are entirely covered by the statement to which he refers?
    Mr. Rippon: I do not suppose that any Question is entirely covered by the previous statement of a Minister. I indicated in my Answer that the questions the hon. Gentleman is asking about cost, design and marketing are problems raised by the Report which will be dealt with initially at the three inquiry centres which I have set up.
    Mr. C. Pannell: May we anticipate another statement from the Minister? Surely the right hon. Gentleman appreciates that it is not enough merely to have the Report of the architect; that we want to follow it up and see the practical application of marketing and the rest; and that we wish to know whether the Minister proposes to consider the question of the long-run which I mentioned last week, or possible subsidies in the early days?
    Mr. Rippon: I am not disputing that. It was not a question of the architect's Report only. Quantity surveyors, a naval architect and others were concerned. I believe that we shall be able to judge the problems better when we get the shipyard owners, members of the building industry and representatives of local authorities together round the table to discuss the possibilities.
    Dame Irene Ward: May I ask whether it is the intention of Departments such as the Ministries of Health and Education to guide organisations like the regional hospital boards in making inquiries about how these matters are progressing because that would be very helpful?
    Mr. Rippon: That is certainly a possibility. In these matters I am in close touch with my right hon. Friends concerned with building.
    Mr. Manuel: Regarding the present impetus for more prefabricated buildings, whether constructed in shipyards or anywhere else, is the Minister aware of the great importance of the need to control design to make certain that there will be no loss of architectural features and

    217
    that we shall not have drabness and sameness about these houses which are to be produced quickly, because that would be criticised by many people?
    Mr. Rippon: I have repeatedly emphasised the importance of design. That is why I believe that it is no use for industries to go ahead with prefabrication until they have discussed the matter with their clients and have heard their views about what is wanted.

    Purchase of Stores (Scotland)
    Mr. Willisasked the Minister of Public Building and Works what was the total value of stores purchased in Scotland in the year 1962–63; what is the estimate for the current financial year; and what proportion of total purchases this represents in each of those years.
    Mr. Sharples: The figure for 1962–63 was £1,370,000 or something over 10 per cent. of the total purchases made. It is not possible to give the figures for the current financial year as many contracts have still to be let.
    Mr. Willis: Is the Minister aware that we are quite pleased that at least it is over 10 per cent., but can he do even better than that?
    Mr. Sharples: Regarding Scotland's share in the general arrangements to help development districts, firms in these districts are invited to tender, and on all suitable occasions preference is given to them, provided that no additional expense is incurred.

    Building Research and Development, Scotland
    Mr. Lawsonasked the Minister of Public Building and Works how much of the building research and development undertaken by his Department is done in Scotland; and whether there has been any increase in the last five years.
    Mr. Rippon: When my new Directorate General of Research and Development undertakes development work i will consider how and where it can best be carried out.
    Mr. Lawson: Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that just as a policy of the dispersal of personnel from
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    London could be carried out and helped a great det1 by the Government, so in a case of this sort Government action in ensuring that research and other establishments are set up well away from London could be of great advantage to the nation?
    Mr. Rippon: I agree.

    Building and Engineering Services, Scotland
    Mr. Rossasked the Minister of Public Building and Works how much of the £10,750,000 for building and engineering services this year will be spent in Scotland; and what will be the estimated employment provided.
    Mr. Rippon: About £900,000. This will be the equivalent of work for about 800 to 1,000 men throughout the year.
    Mr. Ross: This is not as satisfactory as one might have hoped. Can the Minister say how it compares with last year?
    Mr. Rippon: If the hon. Gentleman puts that Question on the Order Paper, I will answer it. These figures, of course, relate only 10 a fairly limited part of the total expenditure of the Ministry in Scotland. This vote covers only the operations of lifts, and boilers, and painting, repairs and replacements. We try to strike a fair balance and to do as much work in Scotland as we can. But it must be related to the buildings in Scotland.

    Downing Street (Rainwater Heads)
    Mr. Liptonasked the Minister of Public Building and Works if he will give a list of the persons whose initials are inscribed on the rainwater heads in the new buildings in Downing Street; and who selected them.
    Mr. Rippon: I will with permission circulate the list in the OFFICIAL REPORT. The selection was made by the architect, Mr. Raymond Erith.
    Mr. Lipton: One appreciates the desire of those concerned to escape oblivion at all costs. Does the Minister realise that if Government buildings are to be cluttered up with the initials of all their transitory occupants, it will certainly mar the face of London?
    Mr. Rippon: I do not know about "transitory occupants". I thought that perhaps the hon. Gentleman felt that to have initials in lead was a symbol of permanence.
    Mr. Barnett: May I ask whether the Minister would make some slight alteration in the inscription on these rainwater heads to record the fact that today has been announced the advent of the first Labour-controlled council in Portland?
    Hon. Members: Answer.
    Following is the list:
    No. 10.

    H. M.—Rt. Hon. Harold Macmillan, M.P.

    D. E. M.—Lady Dorothy Macmillan.

    T. J. B.—Mr. T. J. Bligh, D.S.O., 0.B.E., D.S.C.

    D. S.—Mr. D. Stephens, C.V.O.

    J. F. H.—Mr. J. F. Hewitt.

    R. E.—Mr. Raymond Erith, A.R.A., F.R.I.B.A.

    No. 11.
    S. L.—Rt. Hon. Selwyn Lloyd, C.B.E., T.D., Q.C., M.P.
    No. 12.

    M. R.—Rt. Hon. Martin Redmayne, D.S.O., J.P., M.P.

    M. H. Y.—Mr. M. Hughes Young, M.C., M.P.

    C. J. H.—Sir Charles J. Harris, C.B.E.

    A. H. W.—Mr. A. H. Warren, M.B.E.

    Ancient Monuments and Historic Buildings (Season Tickets)
    Sir P. Agnewasked the Minister of Public Building and Works whether there has been any improvement in the sales of ancient monuments season tickets.
    Mr. Rippon: Yes, Sir. Sales of these season tickets, which admit the holder to all ancient monuments and historic buildings in my care, have risen from 80 in 1958–59 to over 25,000 last year.

    Serpentine (Sailing Dinghies)
    Dr. Bennettasked the Minister of Public Building and Works, whether he will consider allowing sailing boats on the Serpentine.
    Mr. Rippon: Arrangements are being discussed with the boating contractor for making available a small number of sailing dinghies for hire on the Serpentine.
    Dr. Bennett: I thank my right hon. Friend very sincerely far such a satisfactory Answer which I am sure will please
    220
    very many people in the country and quite a lot of hon. Members. I have tried to get this concession for thirty years. May we hope that there will not be too many baptisms by immersion? Would my right hon. Friend care to lay down provisions for a certain amount of buoyancy gear in these boats when they come into operation?
    Mr. Rippon: I congratulate my hon. Friend on his success after thirty years and thank him for making the original suggestion. Of course, these dinghies will be selected for their robust nature, and we shall have regard to safety requirements.

    Ancient Monuments and Historic Buildings (Visitors)
    Mr. Wolrige-Gordonasked the Minister of Public Building and Works what are the attendance figures for the last five years at ancient monuments and historic buildings under his control.
    Mr. Rippon: Nearly 1½million more people paid for admission in 1962 than in 1958. The figures were 6,128,000 in 1958, 6,516,000 in 1959, 6,843,000 in 1960, 7,228,000 in 1961 and 7,554,000 last year.

    Ancient Monuments and Historic Buildings (Guide Books)
    Mr. Moreasked the Minister of Public Building and Works whether, in order to meet the convenience of the increasing number of visitors from abroad who are interested in this country's heritage of ancient monuments and historic buildings, he will, in suitable cases, publish guide books in foreign languages.
    Mr. Rippon: Yes, Sir. There are already guides in French, German and Spanish for the Tower of London; in French and German for Hampton Court; and in French for Dover Castle, Stonehenge, Edinburgh Castle and the Palace of Holyroodhouse. A guide in Italian for the Towel' of London is now in preparation.
    Mr. Rees-Davies: Will my right hon. Friend consider the possibility of a publication by his Department in respect of all the listed buildings under his control? I know that this matter has

    221
    been raised before and was under consideration. Can my right hon. Friend, within the context of this Question, say anything about the future?
    Mr. Rippon: I think that that is rather a tall order, but we will certainly consider providing guides in any appropriate language where the demand seems to exist.
    Mr. C. Pannell: In considering the question of guides, will the right hon. Gentleman use his influence to ensure that guides in the Palace of Westminster are properly briefed, which is not so in many cases? Is he aware that many hon. Members are sometimes appalled by what they hear of the heritage of this noble place—
    Mr. Speaker: Order These people who operate as guides in the Palace do not come within the responsibility of the Minister.
    Mr. Pannell: On a point of order. I was asking whether the Minister would use his influence. I do not know which other Minister apart from the Minister of Public Building and Works can use his influence with the appropriate authorities of the House.
    Mr. Speaker: No doubt one can ask any Minister to use his influence in any direction, but not within the rules of order.

    Stonehenge
    Sir H. Lucas-Toothasked the Minister of Public Building and Works whether he will make a statement about the fallen stone at Stonehenge.
    Mr. Sharples: Stone 23 fell during a gale in March the soil having been weakened by the exceptional winter weather. Fortunately it suffered no damage.
    We have consulted the Ancient Monuments Board for England which has advised that before the stone is re-erected we should take the opportunity to arrange a careful archæological examination of the hole and subsoil and also consider whether it would be desirable to protect any of the other stones. When we have more information on this point we shall consult the Ancient Monuments Board again.
    Sir H. Lucas-Tooth: When restoring very ancient monuments of this character, at what point in the history of the monument is the restoration aimed?
    Mr. Sharples: The aim in the restoration of this particular stone will be to re-erect it as it was before. We also have to consider certain other stones which look as though they may fall at some time in the comparatively near future.

    Historic Buildings (Grants)
    Sir H. Lucas-Toothasked the Minister of Public Building and Works how many grants have been made for the repair of outstanding historic buildings since the Historic Buildings and Ancient Monuments Act, 1953, came into force.
    Mr. Rippon: Up to 31st March, 1963, 1,060 grants have been offered in England, Scotland and Wales. The value of these grants is just under £4¼ million.

    Contractors (Air-Houses and Geodetic Domes)
    Mr. Dalyellasked the Minister of Public Building and Works whether he will establish an organsiation within his Department to hire out to contractors, as protection against inclement weather, air-houses and geodetic domes, technical details of which were sent by the hon. Member for West Lothian to his development unit in February, 1963.
    Mr. Rippon: No, Sir, but I hope to provide more information on this subject while encouraging the industry to make its own arrangements for protection.
    Mr. Dalyell: How can small contractors take advantage of scientific knowledge in this respect?
    Mr. Rippon: I think that, in the first instance, it is for the industry and its clients to make their own arrangements. I do not foresee any difficulty in this regard. I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for the technical information which he provided and which is now being studied by my Director-General of Research and Development in association with the acknowledged American expert on these matters, Professor Buckminster Fuller.

    Royal Marine Barracks, Bickleigh
    Mr. Haymanasked the Minister of Public Building and Works whether he will make a statement on the proposal to provide barracks for the Royal Marines at Bickleigh, near Plymouth.
    Mr. Rippon: Accommodation is being built for one Royal Marine Commando at Bickleigh. The Royal Marines already live in a camp on the site but it comprises only temporary and sub-standard buildings.
    Mr. Hayman: Is the Minister aware that already about £750,000 is being spent to rehouse the Royal Marines at Plymouth and that Bickleigh, only six miles away, is on the edge of the Dart-moor National Park? Is he further aware that many amenity societies are alarmed at this proposal to put a permanent camp there? Will the right hon. Gentleman do what he can to avoid any costly blunder in defence again?
    Mr. Rippon: The first stage of this project is in progress. We have had consultations with the Devon County Council and the Royal Fine Art Commission on this. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman is right in drawing attention to the importance of this site. We shall be very careful to ensure that the building is not out of harmony with its surroundings. We will put up a great many trees in order to screen off the building.
    Sir H. Studholme: Will the hon. Member for Falmouth and Camborne (Mr. Hayman) go to Bickleigh and look for himself—
    Mr. Speaker: Order. There cannot be any Ministerial responsibility in this Minister to direct the steps of another hon. Member.

    Richmond Park (Film)
    Mr. Liptonasked the Minister of Public Building and Works why he allowed a film to be made in Richmond Park, giving lessons in bull-fighting, which was shown in a British Broadcasting Corporation television programme on 5th April last.
    Mr. Rippon: I did not.
    Mr. Lipton: What action is the right hon. Gentleman taking to ensure that there is no repetition of this very doubtful practice? Is he not aware that bullfighting is illegal under British law and that it is a misuse of the Royal Parks for the right hon. Gentleman to allow them to be used for this kind of thing?
    Mr. Rippon: The hon. Gentleman did not listen to the Answer. There will be no repetition because there has been no first instance. The hon. Gentleman is, perhaps, charging like a bull at a red flag which does not exist.

  POST OFFICE

    Postal Deliveries, Alton
    Miss Quennellasked the Post master-General if he is aware that letters posted in London at mid-day on Friday do not reach their Alton address on Monday morning following; and what steps he is taking to improve this service.
    The Assistant Postmaster-General (Mr. Ray Mawby): A letter for Alton posted in London at mid-day on Friday should normally be delivered next morning. If my hon. Friend would let me have details of any instances in which this service has not been given I should be glad to look into the matter.
    Miss Quennell: I thank my hon. Friend for that Answer. However, I regret to have to inform him that since I tabled the Question he has exceeded his own record in this regard, and I shall be delighted to supply him with the facts and figures.

    Proposed Railway Closures (Postal Services)
    Sir J. Duncanasked the Postmaster-General whether he is represented before the transport users consultative committee in all cases where it is proposed to close railways for passengers and mails; if he offers to make increased payments for the carriage of mail in all marginal cases where such increased revenue might lead to keeping open the lines; whether he states at all such inquiries the increased cost to him and inconvenience and delay to the public if alternative road transport has to be used
    and what is his general policy in relation to the speedy transmission of mail in view of the Beeching Report.
    Mr. Mawby: The effect of a proposed railway passenger closure on the Post Office is a matter which my right hon. Friend would, if necessary, normally expect to take up direct with the British Railways Board or with my right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport rather than by making representations to the transport users consultative committee. But it would not be appropriate for us to make increased payments for the conveyance of mails simply to enable an uneconomic railway line to be kept open.
    We are in direct consultation with the British Railways Board about the implications for the Post Office of the proposals in the recent Report. It is too early yet to assess the precise effects on postal services of the reshaping of the railways; but in general we should expect to maintain the present standards of the letter post and improve the reliability of the parcel post without incurring additional expenditure.
    Sir J. Duncan: Will my hon. Friend reconsider the first part of his Answer because the inquiries at the transport users consultative committee stage will be of considerable importance locally? If Post Office representatives give evidence in support of the speedy delivery of mail, it may help the committee to come to the right conclusions.
    Mr. Mawby: We will certainly consider that point, but we must bear in mind the point which I made in my Answer. Obviously we should have to consider what the effect on us would be in each case, particularly whether alternative methods of transport would be available.
    Mr. Mason: Since we are suffering a loss on the parcel service, is the hon. Member aware that, if the Beeching proposals were ruthlessly carried out, they would either kill the parcel service completely or plunge all the G.P.O. services into the red? What protest is the hon. Gentleman's Department making to the Minister of Transport to ensure that these proposals are not so quickly carried out?
    Mr. Mawby: I could not agree with the hon. Gentleman on either of those points. There is no reason that we can see why either of those two things should happen. The hon. Gentleman will have seen that we are fast developing the use of modern forms of transport and are
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    using the railways for bulk transport, and so on. We are following the railways' line of using motor transport for the shorter distances, even regardless of the proposed closures.
    Sir J. Duncan: Will my hon. Friend consider, on demand by Members of Parliament, giving this information about the delays in delivering mail if railways or stations are closed?
    Mr. Mawby: As I said, we will certainly consider that point.
    Mr. Ross: Is not this a bit awkward in that we do not know exactly what will happen? We understand that the Post Office may or may not make representations to the Minister of Transport in respect of certain lines. Would it not be much better if this were dealt with by the Post Office in exactly the same way as anyone else would deal with it so that people in the locality concerned know how they will be affected?
    Mr. Mawby: As I said earlier, the fact that we are very close consultation with British Railways on the whole question is, overall, the best possible way of dealing with it. Obviously, our view on each closure must be, and will be, taken into account by British Railways. On the individual matters, it is possible that we will want to be represented, and we are not closing our minds to this. What I am saying is that we will look at each closure on its merits.

    Special Stamps
    Mr. Emrys Hughesasked the Postmaster-General why he is issuing a Shakespeare postage stamp; and when it will be issued.
    Mr. Mawby: Our policy is to issue special stamps to mark current events of outstanding national or international importance and Royal and postal anniversaries and occasions. A wide variety of commemorative festivals and exhibitions are planned in this country to mark the 400th anniversary of the birth of Shakespeare Taken together they will constitute an outstanding event fully warranting a special stamp issue. This will be made on 23rd April, 1964.
    Mr. Hughes: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that that is the first satisfactory Answer that I have received from the Postmaster-General since I have been in

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    this House? Now that it has taken 400 years to recognise Shakespeare, will the hon. Gentleman say when the time for other celebrities will come?
    Mr. Mawby: Bearing in mind the points that I have made, I see no reason why we should not follow the lines which the hon. Gentleman has indicated.
    Mr. G. Thomas: Will the Assistant Postmaster-General now give consideration to a stamp for William Williams Pantycelyn?
    Mr. Mawby: If the hon. Gentleman will give me details about who this gentleman is, I will study them.
    Mr. Emrys Hughesasked the Postmaster-General when he proposes to issue a Burns postage stamp.
    Mr. Mawby: My right hon. Friend has no present plans for issuing a Burns postage stamp.
    Mr. Hughes: When Shakespeare appears on the stamp he will blush at that Answer. Is the hon. Gentleman aware that nearly every other person knows the date of the birth of Burns, but that very few English people know the date of Shakespeare's birth?

    Parcel Post Service, East Anglia
    Mr. Hiltonasked the Postmaster-General on what date the East Anglian parcel mail experiment is to commence; and if he will give further particulars of this experiment.
    Mr. Mawby: While I cannot give a precise date, our aim is to start in June. The experiment is designed to improve the reliability of the parcel post service and reduce costs. The present system whereby parcel mails travel from place to place in small consignments, the movement of which is difficult to control, will be replaced by one in which the mails are moved in bulk consignments between relatively few main centres, with distribution from a collection into these centres by road. British Railways are collaborating in the experiment and movement of the bulk loads of mails between the major concentration centres will be largely by rail.
    Mr. Hilton: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that although the postal services may not be perfect in Norfolk they are
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    reasonably satisfactory and during the recent wintry spell they were put to a very searching test and came through with flying colours? We in Norfolk are not in any way against the experiment. I hope that this experiment will further improve our services. I wish the Postmaster-General well in his new venture.
    Mr. Mawby: I thank the hon. Gentleman on behalf of the many postmen to whom he has paid respects. I am particularly happy to know that this is the case in Norfolk. This experiment, as he probably knows, is the result of a study group on mail handling, one of the many processes in which we are trying to keep ourselves adapted and in line with modern developments so as to ensure that we will give a first-class service to the customer.

    Postal Service, Leyton
    Mr. Sorensenasked the Postmaster-General what rearrangements of the postal service will be made in the present Borough of Leyton area when the amalgamation of that borough with neighbouring boroughs has been effected.
    Mr. Mawby: None, Sir.
    Mr. Sorensen: Would the Government consider the possibility of making the boundaries of postal districts co-terminus with the boundaries of the new boroughs, especially in view of the fact that in Leyton there are three or four postal areas some of which overlap into neighbouring boroughs, thus causing much confusion? With a view to avoiding this confusion and for the sake of greater neatness, will the hon. Gentleman consider my suggestion?
    Mr. Mawby: As we see it, postal and local government boundaries do not necessarily coincide. Changes in the latter will not in themselves call for alterations in postal boundaries. However, I will certainly examine the suggestion.

  WIRELESS AND TELEVISION

    Pay Television
    Mr. Masonasked the Postmaster-General what representations he has received from pay television promoters

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    to enlarge experiments on pay television, particularly by the use of more than one channel; and what was the nature of his reply.
    The Postmaster-General (Mr. Reginald Bevins): Some of those who are interested in taking part in the experiments have asked to be allowed to try out a two or three programme service so as to demonstrate the full potential of pay television, in particular for minority programming in education, the arts and sport at peak hours.
    While not ruling this out later on, the Government consider that at this stage an experiment on the basis of a single programme, as envisaged in the White Paper (Cmnd. 1893), should be capable of demonstrating the possibilities of pay television.
    I have replied in this sense.
    Mr. Mason: I am much obliged for that reply. I appreciate the pressure which must be brought to bear on the Minister by this new lobby to expand their pay television services? Will the Minister say whether it is possible to have more facilities available for the growth of pay television? Is it not a fact that because of the lack of resources this would prove very difficult? Could the Minister now state what in total we have agreed to for the development of these experiments?
    Mr. Bevins: I am not aware of any lobby for pay television. All I can say at the moment is that the Government and the Post Office are examining the applications we have received. We are having discussions with the various interested parties. As soon as I am in a position to say what is likely to emerge, I will very gladly tell the House.
    Mr. Mason: Will the Minister tell the House how many companies have made approaches to him for permission to start experiments?
    Mr. Bevins: Speaking off the cuff. I think about ten.

    B.B.C. (Plays)
    Captain Litchfieldasked the Postmaster-General if he will give a direction to the British Broadcasting Corporation under Section 15(4) of the Licence and Agreement not to broadcast plays calcu-
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    lated to discourage recruitment into the Armed Forces.
    Mr. Bevins: I think that my hon. and gallant Friend may be referring to the B.B.C. programme "A Little Bit of Gold Said Jump". I did not see the programme and I have not had an opportunity to read the script. But my power under Section 15(4) is a reserve power which I am most reluctant to use.
    Captain(Litchfield: I appreciate my right hon. Friend's reply and I understand the point he makes, but does he think it really acceptable that material which is grotesquely misrepresentative of Service conditions should be broadcast?
    Mr. Bevins: It is difficult for me to answer my hon. and gallant Friend on that point because I have not seen the programme, but, when I have the time, I will very gladly read a copy of the script and then, perhaps, communicate with him.
    Mr. Gibson-Watt: Does my right hon. Friend agree that there are many people who would not wish the Government to direct the British Broadcasting Corporation on an issue such as this and who consider that it should be left to the good sense of the Corporation to avoid this type of programme?
    Mr. Bevins: Yes, and I am sure that the B.B.C. will take note of the views expressed by my hon. Friends.
    Mr. W. Hamilton: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether this programme was any more distorted than the advertisements produced by the War Office for recruitment to the Armed Services?

    UNDER-DEVELOPED COUNTRIES (ECONOMIC AID)
    Ql. Mr. A. Hendersonasked the Prime Minister whether he will take steps to establish a Department of Aid to be responsible for the co-ordination of all forms of economic aid, including investment and technical assistance, to under-developed countries.
    The Prime Minister (Mr. Harold Macmillan): No, Sir. Responsibility for technical assistance was unified with the establishment of the Department of Technical Co-operation in 1961, and

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    there is adequate machinery for the co-ordination of policy on all other aspects of our overseas aid.
    Mr. Henderson: Is the Prime Minister aware that in the first Progress Report of the Department of Technical Cooperation, published in April of last year, the view was expressed that there should be co-ordination of technical and financial assistance? Will he study the United States system, where a Department of Aid has been established with full powers of co-ordination over every form of assistance to under-developed countries?
    The Prime Minister: I think that the situation is a little different here. The United States has one Department—the State Department—dealing with all external affairs. We have the Foreign Office, the Commonwealth Relations Office and the Colonial Office.
    Sir C. Osborne: Will these matters be raised next year at the United Nations Economic Conference? If they are, will Her Majesty's Government give full support?
    The Prime Minister: I should like to inquire into that.

    LEASEHOLD SYSTEM
    Mr. G. Thomasasked the Prime Minister whether public statements on the leasehold system, made at a Press conference on Saturday, 27th April, by the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs, represent the policy of Her Majesty's Government.
    The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir.
    Mr. Thomas: Is the Prime Minister aware that the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs, who has expressed his deep dislike of any measure of leasehold enfranchisement, merely expressed in this Press interview opposition to any other constructive proposals being made? Would it not be better for the Minister to spend his time bringing a solution to the leasehold problem rather than just sniping at the efforts of others?
    The Prime Minister: The Government made their contribution by the passing of Landlord and Tenant Act, 1954.

    ARTS AND AMENITIES
    Mr. Robert Cookeasked the Prime Minister whether he is satisfied that adequate attention is being given to the arts and to amenities by Her Majesty's Government; and if he will make a statement.
    The Prime Minister: Government expenditure on the arts is now £11 million a year compared with £3½million in 1951. The Historic Buildings and Ancient Monuments Act, 1953, and the Government's use of the National Land Fund have arrested and reversed the decay and loss of our major historic houses and their contents. The Waverley procedure has largely halted the loss of great works of art from this country and yet made London the greatest art market in the world. The present exhibition at the National Gallery of eighty-nine major works of art acquired since 1953 contains striking evidence of what the Government has done in that field. We now have before Parliament a Bill to clear the way for two great new library developments under a new British Museum Trustee body. The Arts Council grant has grown since 1951 from £675,000 to £2·7 million and the National Theatre is coming to fruition. In the light of these examples, I do not think my hon. Friend need fear that the Government is giving inadequate attention to the arts.
    Mr. Cooke: May I thank my right hon. Friend for his very full and impressive reply? In view of the important new responsibilities which he has placed on the Minister of Public Building and Works and in view of the greatly increased work at the Treasury, the Ministry of Housing and Local Government and other Ministries concerned with the arts, will he ensure that the Government do not lose initiative here? Will he personally lend his support to a new Government initiative in the arts and related matters?
    The Prime Minister: This is a wide subject. There are varying views about what more might be done and about the possibility of having better machinery. I was saying only that I think we have had very considerable success in the last few years.
    Mr. E. L. Mallalieu: Does the Prime Minister think it right that, owing to the

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    smallness of the grant made to the Royal Shakespeare Company, that company is able to continue its excellent work only by being subsidised by its artistes accepting low fees?
    The Prime Minister: That is a special aspect of a very large issue. I do not know the details of it. If the hon. and learned Gentleman would write to me, i should be very glad to see if there is anything I can do.
    Sir G. Nicholson: My right hon. Friend used words which seemed to me to imply that he believed that the decay in our national architectural heritage had been arrested. Is he aware that almost daily buildings of great architectural value are being destroyed or mutilated? Will he undertake not to be complacent in this matter but to realise that, far from the decay in our national heritage having been arrested, it is still going on?
    The Prime Minister: There is a difference between decay through neglect, which has been largely arrested by the various methods available, and sometimes a great conflict of views on whether a building should be preserved or destroyed for some other purpose. That is another question.
    Mr. Fletcher: I do not disparage what the Government have already done, but does the Prime Minister acknowledge that the present assistance given to the arts and amenities in general is both rather haphazard and inadequate? Will he in particular take notice that the British Museum requires a great deal of money for the purposes of the modernisation to which he referred? Should not that be the direct responsibility of the Treasury? Would it not be unfortunate if the fact that the British Museum requires a great deal of money results in less money being available for other museums and institutions throughout the country, as is feared?
    The Prime Minister: All this must be taken as a whole. I am hoping that the Bill to reorganise the management of the Museum will go through. I am sure that this is a step which is much needed.

    INDIA (MILITARY AID)
    Mr. F. M. Bennettasked the Prime Minister by what methods he intends to ensure that the proposed long-term
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    military aid to India will be deployed wholly for defence of the sub-continent against external aggression.
    The Prime Minister: As I stated in reply to the right hon. Member for Dundee, West (Mr. Strachey) on 2nd May, no decisions about long-term military aid to India have yet been taken. Conditions governing the provision of arms and military equipment to India were set out in an exchange of letters of 27th November, 1962, between the British and Indian Governments. The texts were circulated in the OFFICIAL. REPORT of 29th November.
    Mr. Bennett: I fully appreciate the care with which the Government have approached this problem. Does the Prime Minister fully realise the real extent and depth of the disquiet and apprehension felt in Pakistan at the moment about how this aid might be used in the future, more particularly as even at the height of the Indo-Chinese conflict last year no less than four-fifths of the whale Indian Army was deployed against Pakistan and not against China?
    The Prime Minister: I am aware of the views both of the Government of Pakistan and of the Government of India. What my right hon. Friend is trying to do— I am sure that it is right to try to do it—is to see whether we can in any way facilitate a solution of the many problems which divide the two Governments, for it is a very unhappy thing for the subcontinent that they should be divided when there this external threat.
    Mr. Healey: Does not the Prime Minister agree that both Britain and the Commonwealth as a whole will gain far more if this country supplies India with the aircraft she so desperately needs to protect her country against Chinese Communist aggresson than if Britain continues to act as the arsenal of apartheid in South Africa?
    The Prime Minister: As regards India, the long-term agreement is now being discussed. I looked into the point raised by the Leader of the Opposition. Spare parts for the Indian Air Force are one of the emergency items we agreed to supply under the technical agreement of last November. The backlog is very great and there are some difficulties, sometimes of production and sometimes of supply.

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    However, these are being overcome and agreement has been reached on a large spares programme, the delivery of which is already in progress.
    Mr. Strachey: Would not the Prime Minister agree that, if he continues to link the question of an agreement between India and Pakistan, which we all desire, with the settlement of long-term military aid to India, the probable result will be to leave India helpless and not to secure an agreement with Pakistan?
    The Prime Minister: No. I do not think that is the right phrase and I am sorry that the right hon. Gentleman has used it. We are not linking it. We shall make the long-term agreement shortly, as soon as all the work is completed. What we have done is to express the view that we should be sorry to see an appreciable part of the Indian Army deployed not for defence against China but against Pakistan. This is not the same thing as linking one witih the other. We shall go ahead with our plans, but we shall also try to do our duty—I think it is our duty—to see if we can in any way be of assistance in solving this problem.

    PRIME MINISTER OF CANADA (TALKS)
    Mr. Healeyasked the Prime Minister to what extent he has discussed with the Prime Minister of Canada the control of nuclear weapons inside the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation.
    The Prime Minister: My recent conversations with Mr. Lester Pearson covered a wide range of subjects on which we exchanged views. Such talks between Commonwealth Prime Ministers are of course confidential.
    Mr. Healey: Can the Prime Minister at least tell the House whether the Prime Minister of Canada is proposing that his country should make a contribution to the inter-allied force which Her Majesty's Government are to propose at the forthcoming meeting of the N.A.T.O. Council in Ottawa?
    The Prime Minister: I think that the Canadian Government, who are taking part in the meeting, will express their views then. It is not for me to express decisions on behalf of a Prime Minister who has been in office only a few days.

    NORTH-EAST COAST (DEVELOPMENT DISTRICTS)
    The following Question stood upon the Order Paper:
    Dame IRENE WARD: To ask the President of the Board of Trade, in view of the lack of correspondence between development districts and areas where more industry is required, as revealed by the latest unemployment figures, if he will now schedule the whole of the North-East under the Local Employment Act.
    The President of the Board of Trade (Mr. F. J. Erroll): With permission, Mr. Speaker, I will now answer Question No. 74.
    No, Sir, not the whole of the North-East. But I have decided to list as development districts the remainder of Tyneside, the Barrow-in-Furness Group and Ulverston; and to restore the White-haven Group to the list.
    On Tyneside, Blaydon and the Tyne South-East Group are already listed: the remaining groups are Tyne North-East, Tyne North-West and Tyne South-West.
    My right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour has recently been reviewing the travel-to-work pattern on Tyneside as a whole, and has decided that the volume of travel between the existing groups makes it unrealistic to continue to produce separate unemployment figures for them. In future, a single figure will be given for the combined area, which will be known as Tyneside.
    Dame Irene Ward: Will my right hon. Friend accept my very warm thanks and the thanks of the North-East Coast for this new initiative, and kindly convey to the Lord President of the Council Lord Hailsham, the deep appreciation of the North for the battle that he has fought to help us in our troubles?
    At the same time, will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that the Tory Members from the North-East are now on the march—[HON. MEMBERS: "Where to?"]—and note that we want a deep-water port on the Tees very much indeed and a great many other things as well? Will he assure us that he will give

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    sympathetic consideration to our further requirements as he has done to the ones we have just put forward and which he has accepted?
    Mr. Erroll: I very much appreciate my hon. Friend's thanks and I assure her that the Government as a whole, including the Lord President of the Council, will continue to work for the North-East and will certainly remember her request for a port on Tees-side.
    Mr. Shinwell: Why does the right hon. Gentleman take pride in this decision? Is he aware that many districts have been included in development schemes under the Act, but that there has so far been no development? There are no advance factories. In my constituency and elsewhere derelict areas are increasing. If the right hon. Gentleman wishes to ascertain the views of people in the North-East will he, instead of listening to his hon. Friend, consult the workers in the North-East, particularly those who are unemployed?
    Mr. Erroll: I assure the right hon. Gentleman that I do not take any pride in any unemployment wherever it may exist in the United Kingdom. The purpose in scheduling these areas is to make the greater opportunities under the Local Employment Act and the Budget available to the localities which I have mentioned. I always regret it if there should be certain localities which do not receive so much in the way of new development as others, but every new project started in a development district, whichever one it may be, helps to reduce the total of unemployment, and for that I am glad.
    Mr. P. Williams: As a fellow marcher with my hon. Friend the Member for Tynemouth (Dame Irene Ward), may I ask my right hon. Friend to note that every single, positive, constructive act performed by the Government to help the North-East is barracked and disliked by the Opposition, because they resent its success?
    Does my right hon. Friend believe that, although this step forward is worth while, two further things should be done for the North-East: first, to widen the development districts even further to include areas such as the Team Valley Trading Estate;
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    and, secondly, to put a terminal date on the concessions in the Budget so as to provoke industry to come in as quickly as possible?
    Mr. Erroll: Naturally, I agree with what my hon. Friend has said about the Opposition. The Team Valley Estate is now included in the list of districts which I have just announced. As regards any time limit on the inducements in the Budget—they are not concessions—these, obviously, should remain as long as the need for them exists. Of course, as localities become prosperous, so they will, first, be put on the stop list and then be descheduded. Industrialists would be well advised to take advantage of the inducements now so as to get the benefit of them.
    Mr. Moody: May I, on behalf of the people of Gateshead and Felling, express to the right hon. Gentleman our appreciation of what he has brought to the development district? Now that we know exactly what our needs are, will he ensure that something is done quickly so that the skills of the North may be used for the benefit of the nation?
    Mr. Erroll: I thank the hon. Gentleman very much for what he has said. It will encourage me still further to do all I possibly can.
    Mr. Slater: Will the Minister, while accepting the sentiments expressed by the hon. Member for Sunderland, South (Mr. P. Williams) and the hon. Member for Tynemouth (Dame Irene Ward) about the views of the Opposition as regards the North-East, draw the attention of his hon. Friends to what happened last year in the House, when hon. Members from this side who represent the North-East were able to raise a debate on the situation then prevailing there and bring to the attention of the Government the serious plight of our people through lack of industrial facilities?
    Mr. H. Wilson: Will the President of the Board of Trade make inquiries, so that he can report to the House on this question? We are told that the Lord President of the Council has been fighting hard all these months. Could we know against whom he has been fighting? Was it, in fact, the President of the Board of Trade?
    Mr. Erroll: No. The right hon. Gentleman knows very well that a Conservative Cabinet, if not a Labour Cabinet, work together as a team. It was my hon. Friend the Member for Tynemouth (Dame Irene Ward) who suggested that there might be a difference of view. I assure the right hon. Gentleman that she is misinformed. Also, I remember that the right hon. Gentleman found it necessary to resign from his Government.
    Several Hon. Members rose—
    Mr. Speaker: I think that we must move on now.
    Mr. S. Silverman: Owing to the unsatisfactory nature of the Answer which the President of the Board of Trade has given, I beg to give notice that I shall seek early opportunity to draw attention to its inadequacy.
    Mr. Short: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. My constituency is very much affected. Would you allow me to ask a question?
    Mr. Speaker: No doubt the constituencies of many hon. Members are affected, but there is other business and no Question before the House. I regret that lit is not possible on these occasions to call all hon. Members whose constituencies are affected. I wish that it were, but it is not.
    Mr. Ainsley: In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that—
    Mr. Speaker: Order. Notice has already been given by the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman).

VASSALL CASE (TRIBUNAL'S REPORT)
3.40 p.m.
The Prime Minister (Mr. Harold Macmillan): I beg to move,
That this House takes note of the Report of the Tribunal appointed under the Tribunals of Inquiry (Evidence) Act 1921, to inquire into the Vassall Case and Related Matters, presented on 24th April, and of the operation of the Act,
The House will, no doubt, recall the circumstances in which, about six months ago, it approved without a Division a Motion to appoint a Tribunal to inquire into the Vassall case and related matters. It was with some reluctance that I decided to ask the House to take this action. When this affair was first brought to my attention, I thought that the quickest and most practical way of investigating the security machinery and learning the lessons of this particular case would be by a small committee of experienced civil servants. We already had the advantage of the massive Report of Lord Radcliffe's Committee of 1962, and in their investigations Lord Radcliffe and his colleagues were themselves assisted by the findings of Sir Charles Romer following the Portland case.
As I told the House last autumn, I thought that, from the practical point of view of trying all the time to draw the net tighter, we had to find the answer to certain specific questions. Would the spy have been caught earlier if the Romer and Radcliffe recommendations had been in force from the outset of his career of espionage? Was there a slip-up in observing the regulations as they then were? In other words, the problem to which my mind was chiefly directed when the Vassall case was first reported to me was to ensure that the new system which we had recently brought in was being effectively operated and that, if there were new lessons to be learned, we should discover them and apply them rapidly and effectively.
I observe that in certain quarters the view has recently been expressed that it was a pity that I was not able to sustain this approach. However, it became increasingly clear to me, as the allegations against Ministers, officers and civil servants grew in seriousness and intensity, that there could be no course by which

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public confidence could be restored and justice done to the men who had been attacked other than the full procedure of an inquiry under the Tribunals of Inquiry (Evidence) Act, 1921.
It is difficult, after this lapse of time, to recall the atmosphere of hysteria which prevailed during those weeks. Every now and then, of course, a wave of this kind of emotion sweeps over a large number of people, and, while it is in full flood, it is almost irresistible. Happily, however, if firm measures are taken, the tide soon begins to flow the other way and people begin to look back with amazement and shame on what has happened.
I referred in November to the wide-spread determination not to tolerate the growth of what I could only call the spirit of Titus Oates, or of Senator McCarthy. Now that comparative calm has been restored by the Report to which we are addressing ourselves today, I think that many people will feel that it was right to call a halt. However, there is now beginning to develop a further reaction. Many hon. Members are wondering whether the Tribunal procedure is not altogether too heavy an instrument to be employed in this kind of case. I will come later to some proposals which I have to make in this regard, but I say at once that I do not think that the terrible accusations which were eventually made against Ministers and others concerned could have been rebutted in any way except by this procedure. These were not accusations of administrative laxity. They were charges either of treachery to the State or of moral turpitude.
The Tribunal was asked to report on four matters in particular. The first two were allegations against my noble Friend the First Lord of the Admiralty and his Service chiefs and allegations reflecting upon the honour and integrity of any other Ministers, naval officers or civil servants. This, of course, included the whole range of gossip and innuendo and accusation against my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Hillhead (Mr. Galbraith).
On these, the graver charges, the verdict is clear beyond all doubt. Not only were they proved to be false, or based upon no evidence whatever, but they collapsed miserably, like a pack of cards. They were either withdrawn at the Tribunal, or were not pressed by those who had first
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given them currency. They were admitted to be at the best based upon gossip and tittle-tattle at the worst on pure invention.
Indeed, in the calmer waters in which we find ourselves it seems incredible that they should have been put forward at all. On all of this the Tribunal's findings are clear and if we are not surprised we nevertheless—I think all of us in every part of the House and throughout the country—rejoice at the clear verdict. I would only add that in the debate last November there were criticisms of the efficiency of my noble Friend in the administration of his Department as opposed to accusations of dishonour. But the Report makes it clear that no blame attaches to the Ministers, and as regards my noble Friend not one of the specific errors of judgment referred to in this Report, or, for that matter, in the Report on the Portland case, occurred while he was in charge of this Department.
Here, I should explain why the Government have put down this Motion in its present form. It was thought that by using the words "take note" it would he possible for the debate to cover a wider ground than if we had been confined merely to the text of the Report itself. I think that that was done with the general wish of the House. I would, however, be very ungracious if I did not take this opportunity of expressing our debt of gratitude to Lord Radcliffe, Mr. Justice Barry and Sir Edward Milner Holland, who devoted so many hours to the tough task entrusted to them and who have clearly covered with meticulous scrutiny every single point that could have the slightest relevance to what they were invited to do. We are indeed fortunate that men of this quality can be found when the need arises to give their services so readily.
I have referred to the specific matters on which the Tribunal was asked to report and to the general satisfaction as to the nature of the Report. I think that it would not be right to pass on without expressing a word of sympathy for those who have been the victims. However conscious of innocence a man may be, it is very disagreeable to be under an accusation of this kind for so long a time. The two Ministers concerned have long commanded respect and affection and I am sure that they

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have taken comfort from the universal sympathy which has been felt for them.
Now I turn to the more general question. I am satisfied—although perhaps that is the wrong word, for one is never satisfied—at least I am convinced that the recent improvements in security following the great 1962 Report have done a great deal to improve and tighten up the security measures in all the public services. As the Tribunal itself says, there will always be a danger of a break down because of the human factor, however carefully the regulations are made and however scrupulous our efforts to enforce them.
But apart from these two major points on the grave charges rebutted and disproved, there are particular findings I should like to mention. I think that both in the House and outside there is a widespread feeling of sympathy with individual officers, mentioned by name in the report, to whom have been attributed certain errors of judgment.
Mr. F. J. Bellenger: Mr. Pennells?
The Prime Minister: If the right hon. Gentleman will be patient he will hear my reference to Mr. Pennells.
The House will recall—perhaps the right hon. Gentleman was not here—that last Thursday I tried to put the criticism of Mr. Pennells in perspective and in the context of his long record of efficient and conscientious service. His daughter has sent me a careful memorandum and today my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary saw her at her request.
It is not for me to palliate or rebut the conclusions of the Tribunal on this matter after a most careful and thorough inquiry, but I think that I may be allowed to say this, or to remind the House of it: the Tribunal expressly said that it did not censure the officers it had named. It recorded only errors of judgment.
There is not one of us in this House who can claim, whether our careers have been long or short, in public or private affairs, not to have committed errors of judgment. It is the misfortune of these officers that their slip, or error of judgment—which might have had no
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evil consequences and may not, indeed, have contributed decisively to what occurred—should have got them mixed up in this affair.
The Tribunal went on to make certain criticisms of the physical and documentary security in the Admiralty. These, of course, have been remedied. Indeed, the greater past of the work had already been done before Vassall came under suspicion. It would not be revealing secrets to say that the final improvements were delayed in order to assist those concerned in tracking the spy.
There are additional precautions which suggest themselves, some of which I have had the opportunity of discussing with Lord Radcliffe in broad terms, as I told the House I would do. One of the major problems which confronts us all the time in security matters springs from the need to maintain embassies and Service representatives attached to them in countries behind the Iron Curtain.
It might well be thought by some readers of the Report that it is unwise to employ local staff for domestic purposes, but, on the other hand, there should be the advantage that such staff can be recruited only through official sources and must be regarded automatically as suspect. It is true that it may be difficult to keep guard perpetually because of the ordinary humanity with which life has to be maintained. Nevertheless, it should be understood, and is understood, that locally recruited staff are normally agents. or potential agents.
Some people have thought that we should send out staff from this country, or have a corps specially organised for this sort of work. Those who have the most experience of this—and I must trust their judgment—doubt whether this would solve the problem. It is the conditions of life which make any person vulnerable. The smallest diversion from correctitude, perhaps a trivial operation on the black market in buying something not supposed to be in supply, perhaps a breach of minor regulations—all these can make a man or woman vulnerable to attempted subversion, and I doubt whether it would be practicable or safer to try to recruit a large staff of this kind from home for all the various domestic and other tasks.
We have decided that it would be wiser that all subordinate staff of the Service

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attachés should be subject to Service discipline and be recruited from the Services. This has the advantage that it makes it much easier to post them on their return and enables them to complete their normal Service careers in non-vulnerable positions. The procedure for reporting from embassies abroad has been reviewed so that embassy staffs will be on the alert for any development affecting security, and any information will be notified to the security service promptly.
Broadly speaking, I think that the regulations now in force are scrupulously adhered to, and if they are we should be able to reduce risks from these foreign posts to the minimum. As the House knows, one of the most important protections has always been and must continue to be that tours of duty should be fairly short, for the strain on our people is undoubtedly severe.
I now turn from general security abroad to this country. With the exception of the few points with which I have already dealt, I do not think that there are any new measures that could be introduced beyond the action taken following the Radcliffe and Romer Reports of a year ago, unless, of course, we were to go over to a quite different system of life and one which would introduce a form of security police running not only through the Government Departments, but through the many industrial establishments which deal with matters of interest to a foreign country.
To be effective, this would have to extend wider and wider I would only pose to the House the question whether we might not be in danger of abandoning our way of life in a desperate effort to protect it if we took that course. Of course, however effective the regulations, and however strenuous the efforts to apply them rigorously, there will always be human errors which may or may not lead to difficulties. Ninety-nine out of a hundred of these errors will not lead to difficulty. One may leave a document open, or fail to keep the rules about locking up the right things. This sort of thing is bound to happen from time to time, but it can be, and is, corrected as far as possible by constant supervision.
I have seen some comment on one other aspect I want to refer to. Why, it is asked, do men and women who work
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with someone whose character seems a little out of the ordinary not take upon themselves the duty of reporting their doubts? This is, of course, a duty in Departments of this kind, whether Governmental or industrial. But it is a duty which I think we all realise is very distasteful and very difficult to enforce. What is important is that when such a report is made it should be seriously considered. However, eccentricity or oddity is not necessarily a weakness which leads to treachery, nor can ordinary life be carried on by comrades in an office in day to day work in an atmosphere of perpetual gossip and suspicion. Here again, we Lave to try to find a reasonable balance.
I said that I would have something to say about possible methods of dealing with future cases of this kind as they may arise. I must warn the House that I think that they will arise. I think that more spies will be caught. It may well be that, with all this tightening up over recent years, we shall bring to justice traitors who have so far escaped. As the whole system improves, we may be able to catch people who have, for the time being, escaped, and, at the same time, we should be able to make it more difficult to recruit new agents.
I think that more cases there will certainly be. I am bound to tell the House of the strange paradox which confronts me from time to time. Naturally, the security services are very pleased when they tell me that they have been able to lay hands on a suspect. But, as the House will well understand, I feel inclined to greet these things, which reflect full credit on the security services, with somewhat less enthusiasm. The knowledge that there had been a spy causes more condemnation than the success in catching him brings approbation.
Nevertheless, I think it right to say that the work of the security forces, very difficult to carry on in the conditions of a free society, is done with increasing skill and certainly with the greatest devotion. This was the conclusion reached by Lord Radcliffe and his colleagues in their large-scale inquiry of 1962; it has been confirmed by the work done since.
However, if there are cases of this kind, and, more especially, if they create the kind of public excitement that has been built round the Vassall case, what

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are we to do? How are we to investigate the circumstances after the spy has been dealt with by trial? The only way to obtain the full powers of compelling witnesses, and all the rest, is under the Tribunals of Inquiry (Evidence) Act. We have, of course, had a committee of a judicial character, but not armed with this full authority—for example, the Romer inquiry—and we sometimes have had just ordinary disciplinary inquiries within the service.
I must tell the House that I find myself in agreement, or certainly in sympathy, with those hon. Members who feel that the present position is rather unsatisfactory. I think that in the case which has been the cause of this Report the allegations were so serious that an inquiry under the 1921 Act was not only justified, but absolutely necessary, but there may be cases where none of this atmosphere of scurilous rumour has been created, but where it is still felt that full inquiry should be made into all the circumstances, partly with a view to disciplinary action, if that is necessary, and partly with a view to learning and applying any lessons for improvement.
I therefore put forward for the House's consideration a plan that I have discussed with some of my advisers, and on which I have already spoken to the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition. It might well be advantageous to set up a small standing body—a permanent body—to act as a Security Commission. This might consist of a judicial chairman, assisted and supported by two other members. Those who have had experience of the problems of maintaining security in the public services might well have a valuable contribution to make in this. In addition, we might have a small standing committee of Privy Councillors from both sides of the House.
It would then be possible for the Government to decide, after consultation with the Privy Councillors, whether in any particular case an inquiry by the Security Commission was called for. The responsibility for the decision whether to invite the Security Commission to conduct an inquiry must, naturally, rest with the Government of the day, but they would be fortified and assisted in their decision by consultation with the Privy Councillors.
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The question of powers would then remain. There might be cases in which the full powers conferred by the 1921 Act were necessary, but here, perhaps, the initiative might rest with the Security Commission itself. If, at the outset—or, indeed, at any stage of its investigation—the Security Commission felt that its inquiries could not be effective without powers to compel evidence, it would so inform the Government. Parliament would then be asked to pass a Resolution conferring on the Commission, for that particular inquiry, the powers under the Act of 1921. But there might be many cases in which the Commission did not think that that was necessary, so that this rather formidable engine would not be brought automatically into play.
Of course, after the inquiry was held, the Security Commission would report to the Government, and the Prime Minister of the day would consult the standing committee of Privy Councillors when the report had been received—
Mr. George Wigg: Would the Prime Minister be good enough to consider that one of the first subjects his proposed new tribunal might deal with is the circumstance in which full details of it appeared in yesterday's Daily Mail? Would he also consider that a second subject for this Security Commission to consider might be the fact that, when the Romer Committee was set up, the appointment of Vice-Admiral Sir Geoffrey Thistleton-Smith was also leaked by a Department, so that it appeared on the front page of the Daily Mail before it was announced to the House?
The Prime Minister: I very much regret leaks of information, but I do not think that great harm has been done to the nation, or great information conveyed to the enemy. It is just one of those things. It has been discussed quite freely by a number of hon. Members.
What I want to make clear is that this proposal that I am seriously making—and I think that the hon. Member for Dudley (Mr. Wigg) would also like to take it seriously—has the merit of retaining the responsibility for executive decisions where it ought constitutionally to belong but, at the same time, it would take account of the fact that the security of the State transcends the varying policies of successive Governments and is

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the concern of all Members of Parliament, and is a matter in which, I think, the Privy Councillors, by the nature of their oath, may have a special part to play. We have not reached conclusions. We throw out the suggestion for discussion, and I think that it might lead to a structure that will be generally acceptable.
I come now to some observations that I feel it right to make about the Press. Lord Radcliffe and his colleagues did not think it part of their task to offer judgment on the Press, and gave their reasons very clearly in paragraphs 13 and 14 of their Report. They only refer to the Press in, I think, about 50 of the Report's 276 paragraphs, where it was necessary to do so in order to carry out their task —that is, to sift the truth. It is true that there are certain criticisms, but they appear in the framework of the main narrative and in no case constitute a general criticism or attack upon the Press. However, this affair has, naturally, stimulated much discussion about the functions of the Press and its relation to public matters.
Before I pass to some general observations, the House will, perhaps, expect me to make a reference to the two newspapermen committed to prison far contempt of court. This is a much narrower issue and, of course, arises from the duties and powers given to the Tribunal under the 1921 Act. If, in these instances alone out of several others, the Tribunal felt that the questions to which it required a reply were essential links in the chain of events that it was its duty to examine, that is a case for the courts, and it was so treated. But, apart from that question, much wider issues have been raised upon which I would, rather hesitatingly, make some comment.
Newspapers, in their task of finding out the truth and publishing it, may have a feeling that in some cases Governments or their officials tend to push out the frontiers of what is called "secrets" too far, and there may be substance in this. I feel sure that none of us would wish the caution of security to be used to conceal incompetence. In war, there is a very careful and strong censorship of the Press, and that has always been preserved. In peace, in the past, this has normally not been necessary, but I am afraid we must face the
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fact that in this unhappy twilight world in which we live in a state of truce—neither war nor peace—it is not always easy for the Government and their officers, or the Press, to know exactly where the line should be drawn, and that the system can only work on the basis of mutual confidence.
Apart from these security matters, the Press has a right—and, I think it would say, a duty—to find out the truth, to publish it and comment on it as it thinks fit. That is its right, and I think that we all feel that the advantages of a free Press far outweigh any of its disadvantages. Naturally, like any right, this has a corresponding obligation.
As for n en in public life—and here we are all in the same boat—I do not think that they must be too sensitive. They must expect, whether by the reporter's words or the cartoonist's pencil, to suffer some wounding blows. This is part of what we assume when we voluntarily enter upon public affairs. At the same time, we have the right to expect that while the Press should be informative, and may even be inquisitive, its curiosity should no: amount to something like persecution. We may be wounded, but we should not be hounded.
Similarly, we on our side should recognise the circumstances in which the journalists and the Press labour—the editions that have to be brought out by night and clay, the difficulties of avoiding all mistakes. So we must not ourselves be too sensitive. But what I think we have the right to complain of, and this matter has now been dealt with, is if statements are made as fact when they are only inference and have no foundation, and then, from them, deductions are drawn which I feel certain are realised, within a day or two of their bring printed, by those responsible for them to have been fantastic.
Who could really believe, for instance, except when suffering from a fever of suspicion, that my noble Friend acted in the way he was supposed to have acted, that is, falsely and teacherously to his own office, to the Government of which he was a member, and to the Crown, or that his senior officials and officers were guilty of the charges made against them? And who, indeed, could have supposed the story about my hon. Friend the Mem-

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ber for Hillhead—properly repeated by my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham, West (Mr. Tapsell) to the Chief Whip—to be anything but pure melodrama? Yet, once made, such allegations must be inquired into and demolished. I can only say that from all this there are lessons to be drawn by both sides. I believe that they will be, and I leave it there.
Let me try to sum up. I feel sure that it was right, in the circumstances, to set up a Tribunal, although I regret the reasons that made that procedure necessary. I have tried to indicate that in arming ourselves as well as we can we must try to strengthen security by every legitimate means and see that it does not break down through inefficiency, incompetence or forgetfulness. We must equally avoid the dangers of making conditions in our public service, as well as in many of our industrial establishments, almost intolerable. I have expressed what I know to be the view of the House—our pleasure at the unqualified vindication of the Ministers concerned. I have indicated the lines of a possible machinery which must, of course, wait until we have given it further consideration. Meanwhile, I think that we are doing all that can be done to strengthen our security.
Given the necessary limitations within which we have to work both at home and overseas, I feel that all the time progress is being made and that the main thing now is to apply conscientiously and efficiently the procedures that have been laid down. This has been a sad incident from which nobody draws great satisfaction, but at least we have this—it has been one in which it has been shown that the truth has prevailed.
4.14 p.m.
Mr. Harold Wilson (Huyton): There were two parts to the Prime Minister's speech, and they were in very different tones. I think that it is clear that he was more interested in the part relating to the Press. We all remember the very angry, bitter, rattled tones and demeanour of his speech on 14th November. There were moments when he returned to that this afternoon, though at the end of his speech his view rather was that the Press had learned its lesson, that we have all learned our lesson, and that it will be good to let bygones be bygones.
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The right hon. Gentleman put forward some interesting philosophical comments about relations—we all agree that they are extremely difficult—between those in public life and those in the Press. But it was obvious that he was approaching this side of his speech with more interest and enthusiasm than he had that part of the speech in which he dealt with the problems of national security.
When the right hon. Gentleman was dealing with national security I could not help feeling that his approach was remarkably complacent. He made very little attempt to analyse the Report and the weaknesses and defects in the security machinery. Indeed, one could say that the whole tone of this part of his speech could be summed up by the words which he used when he was interrupted by my hon. Friend the Member for Dudley (Mr. Wigg)—"Just one of those things".
I think that the most serious thing on which the public will have seized in his speech is that the Government feel that this is becoming so much a part of what we must expect, that there will be so many incidents, that this is now so regular, that we have to have special machinery to deal with the problems of inquiries arising out of espionage.
I will come to the various points made by the Prime Minister, but it is important to emphasise that what this Report is about, first and foremost, is national security. We can argue about defence, as we do in the House—and there are differences between the two sides of the House on defence questions. But how can the Government talk about defence policy when on security, the very centre of a nation's defence policy, without which a defence policy can never be credible or viable, the British Government and a British defence Department are presented to the world by this Report in the appearance of a leaky vessel?
When he was talking about the establishment of the Tribunal, the right hon. Gentleman referred to the need to restore confidence. If that were the object, may I tell him that it has not been achieved? Confidence has not been restored. Apart from its reference to a man who is dead, and who is unable to defend himself, and apart from a few mild rebukes to the Embassy in Moscow, the whole of the Report is that no one is wholly to blame.

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But the reaction of the man in the street will be, "There damned well ought to be somebody to blame".
What we have here is an account of a man of pretty limited intelligence, not a master spy, just a small-time traitor, who, for seven years, was able to remain undetected and to abstract secret —top secret—documents almost at will. I do not think that the House will be under any illusion about the kind of document which may have gone out of the Admiralty as a result of this. There is probably no record of what they were. I doubt whether the Government know what they were. But he had access to atomic material, as we are told in the Report, British and allied.
In Moscow, he must have had access to a very wide variety of documents of a very special degree of security. In the Military Branch to which he was posted after his return he had access to all the most secret materials of our senior defence Department, affecting British plans, weapons and dispositions, and similar material relating to the plans, weapons and dispositions of our allies.
I must confess that I am rather worried by the tone of the document itself on some aspects of this. For example, we read in paragraph 198 that
"the security arrangements in Military Branch were such that, if he had been a more adventurous spy, he could readily have gained access to a great deal of secret material."
In the next paragraph we read:
"We have not found any reason to think that Vassal] exploited this situation, or that it contributed in any way to his espionage activities. otherwise we should consider those responsible deserving of censure."
That is a pretty remarkable argument. What they are saying is, "If we had had to face a really dedicated and trained spy, not an overgrown wolf-cub who had gone wrong, then the system would have been wide open in respect of security."
The whole point is that not too much harm was done because Vassall did not bother to take advantage of his opportunity and because at certain key periods Vassall's Russian masters told him to lay off. But if Vassall had been more—to quote the Report—"adventurous", then those responsible would have been "deserving of censure".
Even so, the Tribunal strongly criticises the security system. I draw attention to the whole of paragraph 198,
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which refers to the common keys in the security cupboards. It reads:
"Staff used whichever cupboards were available to them in their rooms for storing all their materials, regardless of its classification, and regardless of the type of cupboards. Key control was also less than adequate."
There is much here which would give cause for concern, and in these paragraphs which I have quoted, to take only a very small part of the Report, we ought to have had enough to shake the Government's complacency on this question.
I think it right to say that we should not even have had this information available to us if the Prime Minister had not been forced. very much against his will, to set up this inquiry. There was a Long delay between Vassall's conviction and the appointment of the working party of officials, and an inquiry with full powers was not set up until the Prime Minister was forced, by admittedly wild speculation, as he has very fairly said, to set up an inquiry which he had repeatedly and brusquely refused when this was requested by Hugh Gaitskell and other members of the Opposition Front Bench. The pity is that he did not announce the inquiry first, for that would have had some tempering effect in preventing some of the wild speculations.
When the right hon. Gentleman set it up not only the whole tone of his speech, but the order of priorities in which he drafted the terms of reference, showed where his interests lay. It was not security as much as a desire to put the Press on the spot and to get an answer to these charges which loomed first in the list of priorities. Today, we have the feeling from his speech, "Everything is improving." He said that a lot of improvement has been made as a result of the Romer Report and the Radcliffe Report. How do we know? We have been reassured many times before on these quesitions. Now we are told that the counter-espionage services are catching quite a bag of spies.
I join the right hon. Gentleman in commending them for their efficiency. But I wish that he did not sometimes approach this job as if it were a matter of shooting pheasants. The important thing is not how many spies we catch, but how many there are to catch. I think that I am right in telling him that his reaction is not the reaction of the

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country. I think that he was perhaps relieved at the tone of the Report, but in the country the Report came as rather a shock to very many people.
I ask the right hon. Gentleman to observe the immediate reaction of the Press on the publication of the Report —and I am not referring to the Opposition Press. The day after publication we had a very deep chorus of real national concern. For example, the The Times leading article—and The Times had in no way been involved in the Report—said:
"So far as security is concerned, the Report of the Radcliffe Tribunal on the Vassall case is clearly the beginning not the end of the affair."
It referred to the inquiry as carrying
"a disturbing hint of complacency."
It said:
"There appears a certain incompatibility between the apparently casual security procedures which emerge from the body of the report and the conclusion that hardly anyone is deserving of serious censure. It is hard to resist the impression that the matter is being treated as one of those accidents that bedevil the affairs of even the best-regulated families."
That was rather what I felt about the right hon. Gentleman's speech this afternoon. The leading article continued:
"although the honour and integrity of the Ministers, naval officers and civil servants in the case have mostly been vindicated, Britain's security arrangements have not."
Similarly, the Daily Telegraph was very critical of the state of the security services. The Sunday Times leading article was a blistering analysis of the whole Moscow story. In a leading article under the heading "Big Black Blot" the Daily Mail said:
"If the past history of this country had produced anything nearly as shocking as the Report of the Radcliffe Tribunal on the spy Vassall. the British story would have been very different."
That is why I think that the Prime Minister should have taken time this afternoon to tell us more about the security aspects of the problem. There is concern, deep concern, and ground for deep concern, about the state of our security, and this afternoon we have had no reassurance about it.
Since the right hon. Gentleman became Prime Minister we have spent
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in six years £37,472,000 in annual Votes on security services, plus probably another £25 million on miscellaneous security services within individual defence Departments. Shall we say that we have spent £60 million on security during his period as Prime Minister? This Report begins to evaluate what we are getting for that expenditure, and still more does his frank admission that we shall need special machinery for handling this situation.
Before I come to the Report and the lessons to be drawn from it, I ask the Prime Minister one question on which he has, in fact, given us some information. Perhaps the Leader of the House, who is to wind up the debate—will tell us a little more. On 14th November, the Prime Minister said in the House:
"I am happy to add that Lord Radcliffe has agreed that on the completion of the Tribunal's work and separately from it he would be ready to bring to my attention any weaknesses in existing security arrangements which come to his notice."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 14th November, 1962; Vol. 667, c. 400.]
I gathered from the Prime Minister that there has been preliminary discussion between the Prime Minister and Lord Radcliffe. May we be told whether he intends to present a full report on the lessons of the Tribunal in respect of the working of the security services? What has the Prime Minister in mind about bringing this Report, or such part of it as can be made public, to the House?
I turn to the Report itself—and the House will forgive me if I concentrate on one or two aspects of it because I am sure that other hon. Members will want to deal with many other aspects of this very long and very important document. There is the whole question of the breakdown within the Moscow Embassy. No one is to blame, of course, but the whole story of Captain Bennett's anxieties, the failure to take action, the divided responsibility between the Foreign Office and the Admiralty, are enough to cause some of us deep disquiet.
Captain Bennett suspected that Vassall was a homosexual. In his first report he said that Vassall had an "effeminate personality". He told the ambassador about it. Memories seem very hazy about what was said and what was done. In fact, I am bound to say that memories seem very hazy about everything except

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those issues which seem to point to the guilt or responsibility of Mr. Pennells. On that, memories seem to have developed crystal clarity. That is the one man who cannot defend himself. But on what happened in the Moscow Embassy there seems very grave doubt, even to the point at which documents seem to have been lost, which is most unlike the Foreign Office.
Captain Bennett went on to withdraw his allegation in the next report, but he repeated it to his successor in words which I will not quote to the House. When Vassall was arrested Captain Bennett told security officers that Vassall was an undoubted homosexual. The Admiralty was told. The first report was on the record for the positive vetting which presumably came when Vassall was put on secret work. This first report was available at that time.
The big question which arises is this how was it that in six or seven years the Admiralty never got on to a weakness which was so obvious that the Russians were on to it in six or seven months, or possibly in a lesser period than that? There is also the question of Mikhailski's appointment. Hon. Members will want to query the whole system of locally recruited staff. The right hon. Gentleman dealt with that problem this afternoon. I want to ask him to tell us whether the Soviet Embassy in Kensington has any substantial locally recruited staff; and can he tell us—I do not know the answer —whether the American Embassy in Moscow relies similarly on Russian staff? Perhaps the Government will give us the answer to those questions.
I cannot entirely rid myself of the suspicion that Mikhailski was put in that job with a purpose—and not so much an espionage purpose. His speciality was compromising homosexuals. There were other cases of his operations in the Report. It is possible—I only ask—that someone knew something about Vassall from the outset? We cannot check this. We do not know when Mikhailski was appointed. Why do we not know? Surely there must be Foreign Office records on this matter? After all, Mikhailski was on the strength of the Foreign Office. He had to be paid. If there were records, have the files been lost, because the Report suggests that it was impossible for the committee, from
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any records or evidence given, to say when Mikhailski was taken on to the strength of the British Embassy in Moscow.
Surely the Foreign Office must report home about new recruits, particularly new locally recruited members of its staff, so that the security services can know, check and record? Were there no previous experiences in regard to his other employments? It is strange that we know all the records of certain people—for example, those relating to Mr. Pennells—but we do not even know the date when Mikhailski was appointed to the Embassy in Moscow.
I come to a more serious problem, that of positive vetting, and I must say that this seems to have been a most amateurish job. Having read the whole story of the positive vetting of Vassall in this case, I am bound to conclude that a hire-purchase firm would have made more searching inquiries over a washing machine account. Let me give this example. Captain Bennett, who had been Vassall's superior in Moscow, was not approached. Even if he had been in the Far East, as the Admiralty thought—in fact, he was in Portsmouth—he should have been communicated with.
Captain Bennett's successor, Captain Northey, was not asked for his view. He was in Moscow. I find it inconceivable to think that either of them would have presented favourable reports had they been asked about the suitability of Vassall for top-secret work. It is one thing to pm a few lines for an annual routine report for a clerical officer, but quite another for a report on a man's suitability to do secret work.
Many of us have experience of this in various branches of Government service. I was once the head of a Civil Service branch with about 350 clerical and executive officers I was doing annual reports and I confess that they were comparatively routine matters for inclusion in their personal files. But had I been asked at that time about the suitability of Mr. X for a job involving the regular handling of classified material, I think that I should have had to apply very different criteria. One would, therefore, have given a very different answer. A number of hon. Members hi.ve to do this frequently when they are asked for testimonials and references by people they know. In one's

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reply one obviously asks oneself what kind of qualities are required in the job before one signs the reference or supplies the testimonial.
I cannot believe that Captain Bennett or Captain Northey, if asked to report on Vassall's suitability for top-secret work—in the light of the views that both of them had expressed about his personal defects —would not have put in a report of such a kind as to set the red lights flashing in the Admiralty. However, they were not asked to give a report. Instead, two elderly ladies—estimable no doubt—were asked to assess Vassall's character; but from a security angle.
To judge from the reports of the positive vetting, there was one failure. Vassall had been for four years in the Royal Air Force. Nevertheless, when this positive vetting was being undertaken no one thought of asking Vassall's R.A.F. superiors or colleagues what they thought on the subject. I would have thought that those who served alongside and over him for four years would have had a much clearer idea of his suitability for handling Service secret material than two elderly ladies who knew him only socially. In any case, I should have thought that four years of Service life would have revealed his personal defects with more success than most inquiries.
I must point out that under the American system of positive vetting—and we had better get used to it, because under Article XIV(2) of the Polaris Agreement we have to apply it to all those involved both in the Services and in industry—there is a full probing of past records. One is asked every address at which one has lived, every job one has held, the names of one's employers, and the whole of one's Service career. These are checked and this is all on the American positive vetting form. I have seen it.
There is nothing like that on the British positive vetting form. On the British one there is a whole batch of questions about past Communist associations, on the naive assumption that a Communist who is being vetted will tell all about his associations. I suppose that the idea is that one is more likely to get the truth if one asks eight questions rather than one. However, on the American form there is only one question on Communist association.
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So I ask the Government why past Service records are not included in this positive vetting system, for I believe that the whole tragedy of the Vassall case could have been avoided? I must also ask this. Is it the case that in these questions our authorities were too easily reassured by the school to which the man went, the fact that he came of a good family and that his uncle was a housemaster at Repton? Has it anything to do with the fact that he was a personable young man with a good accent and manner, a member of the Conservative and Bath Clubs, as Vassall was? I wonder if the positive vetting of Vassal] would have been so casual had he been a boilermaker's son who had gone to an elementary school?
I think that too much was taken for granted simply because he seemed a decent sort of chap. I cannot escape the conclusion, upon reading the Report, that on this whole question of security—of the remorseless day by day struggle between their espionage and our counterespionage, on which the security of our country depends—it is the old contest of gentlemen versus players. We are up against a ruthless, highly professional service—and when one fights professionalism in the gentlemanly posture of the Establishment, one is beaten before one starts.
Before I leave the Report, there is one question about which i am not fully convinced and which seems a little inconclusive in the Report; it is the view of the Radcliffe Tribunal that the Vassall case and the Portland case were not connected. Can we be sure about this? There is at least a suggestion that the same controller or spy-master operated in both cases. Paragraph 54 of the Report tells us that when Lonsdale was arrested Vassall was told to suspend his activities.
There is one other fact not referred to in the Radcliffe Report—and my hon. Friend the Member for Dudley mentioned it on 24th March, 1961, in the House and has never had a reply. What happened when Lonsdale was arrested was this. There was a shocking leak from Bow Street about his arrest. I do not know from whom, but it informed the world and immediately alerted the Russians about his arrest. It enabled

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them to apply security procedures at once.
I know that the then Attorney-General was livid when he heard about it and nearly went into orbit, because it is possible that if the Russians had not been alerted at that time the continued system of communications on to which the security services had been put by the arrest of Lonsdale might have enabled them to have got on to Vassall and the question of the documents being abstracted from the Admiralty. I do not know for certain, and the Tribunal may be right that there was no connection between the Lansdale case and the Vassall one.
However, we accept the Tribunal's view that the Admiralty authorities did not know that another spy was in the Admiralty. The Admiralty is acquitted of the charge that it knew that a spy was there, but is it not an equally serious matter that the Admiralty did not know that a spy was present there?
I turn to some of the lessons that should be drawn from this Report. Hugh Gaitskell, in a previous debate on security, once laid down that the security services should fulfil four conditions. He stated in May, 1956—when we were debating the Commander Crabbe case—what they were. He said:
"These assumptions are: first, that the operations of these services are ultimately and effectively controlled by Ministers or by a Minister; secondly, that their operations are secret; thirdly, that what they do does not embarrass us in our international relations. And perhaps one might add, fourthly, that what they do appears, as far as we can make out, to be reasonably successful,"—
At which point HANSARD records some laughter and Hugh Gaitskell added:
"in this sense, that if there were a wide-spread feeling that the secret services were extremely incompetent and inept then it would be the duty of hon. Members to raise the matter."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 14th May, 1956; Vol. 552, c. 1752.]
Can one honestly say that these conditions are fulfilled? If they are not fulfilled, then, as Hugh Gaitskell said, we as a House have a right and a duty in this matter.
What, therefore, is wrong? I think that the first thing that comes out of the Report is that security is being subordinated to economy. I am not saying necessarily that the House should be asked to vote more money, because I do
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not know how the money already voted is spent, nor does anyone else in the House, except the Prime Minister. We do not know whether some of the money is wasted. It is not accounted for. It is the only part of the Appropriation Account which the Public Accounts Committee does not examine, But, certainly, on the key points high-lighted by the Report, we were short of money and short of staff.
Mr. Penuells—and, here again, this action contradicts the rather over-facile criticism of him—queried the system of sending unmarried officers to places like Moscow. This does not mean an obsession with the homosexual side. An unmarried man—or woman—of perfectly normal tendencies can be compromised by the ruthless service they have in Moscow.
Again, the positive vetting procedure, as stated in the Report, was years behind schedule, presumably because of shortage of money and shortage of trained personnel. Again, we are told that we could not afford at that time a security officer in Moscow. I think that there is good reason to feel that this shortage of resources for dealing with these jobs is partly explained perhaps by spreading the security services too wide. It is probably true that they are too busy on things of secondary importance.
This brings me to the second lesson—the need to declassify. We have far too many documents classified as secret, so that our security service is spread far too thinly in trying to protect them. The greater the secrecy the less the security. We should classify less and protect the documents we do classify with real vigour and vigilance. I cannot help feeling that a great deal of our security work is devoted not to protecting our military strength, but to concealing our political weakness. The whole R.S.G. story suggests that it was political embarrassment rather than security weakness on which our services were deployed. We should not be afraid to tell the people more, and those things which, on security grounds, cannot be told we should guard with all our strength. This is the trouble with D notices. Not only on R.S.G.s, D notices are being used not to keep information from a potential enemy but to protect the Government from ridicule in the Press or in the political field.

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The third question, and I am glad that the Prime Minister dealt with this, is the problem of the re-employment of staff returning to Service Departments from countries where they may have been under pressure. It was not only Vassall—Houghton, involved in another case, had been compromised first when he was in Poland. I am glad that the Prime Minister now makes it plain that junior members of Service attaché staffs in these embassies will be recruited from the Regular members of the Force concerned.
What I could not understand in the Report was why it was said that while we do not return a Service attaché to a particular department which deals with intelligence or the affairs of the country where he has just been, for some reason a clerical officer, a much more junior official, has developed such expertise that it is an advantage to the community and the Government to put him in that sort of work. I should have thought that he was highly vulnerable by reason of having been in the country and that it would be a service to this country to put such people in the victualling department or in a department dealing with naval law or something like that, a long way from somewhere where they would be likely to get security material of the kind to which Vassal] had access.
My next point refers to Ministerial responsibility. The noble Lord, Lord Carrington, comes out, as the right hon. Gentleman has said, in a white sheet. He did not know that there was a spy in the Admiralty, and it was wrong to suggest that he did. While there is no reflection at all on his personal integrity, it may be a reflection on his administrative ability that he did not know.
We are in danger of evolving a new and strange doctrine of Ministerial responsibility. I tend to take a more old-fashioned view. I agree with the way this was formulated years ago, in this very context of security, and I commend these words to the House:
"…I want to say a few words on the subject on Ministerial responsibility. When what is known as the Maclean and Burgess case was entering its final phase, with the findings of the Australian Royal Commission and the publication of the White Paper, I made it clear that full Ministerial responsibility must be taken by those Ministers, past and present, who presided over or were connected with the Foreign Office during all this period. This was not a mere act of quixotism or chivalry;
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it is a plain constitutional truth. It will be a sorry day when we try to elevate something called the Foreign Office or the Treasury or any other Department of State into a separate entity enjoying a kind of life, responsibility and power of its own, not controlled by Ministers and not subject to full Parliamentary authority.
Ministers, and Ministers alone, must bear the responsibility for what goes wrong. After all, they are not slow to take credit for anything that goes right."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 7th November, 1955; Vol. 545, c. 1484.]
These were the words, wise and impeccable, of the then Foreign Secretary, the present Prime Minister, on 7th November, 1955. I agree with him. They are tough and honest words and I agree with them. Therefore, if the First Lord is not to take the responsibility for what went wrong in his Department, only one Minister can—the head of our security services, the Prime Minister.
I wonder whether, in the present circumstances, with the full blast of espionage activities we now have to deal with, as this Report and the right hon. Gentleman's speech have made clear, it is possible for him to do this job. Like him, I abhor the idea of a police State, or the creation of new and fearsome posts, or anything approaching the idea of a security police, but in the anxiety which recent events have aroused there may be a case for the temporary appointment of a Minister, perhaps a Minister of State, responsible to the House and working direct to the Prime Minister, to survey our security services. Last year the Prime Minister appointed a member of the Cabinet to be in charge of P.R.O. and propaganda services. We have never discovered what he does. There is a far stronger case for appointing a man—and there are many such men in all parties in the House—who would carry the confidence of the House in this matter.
I have referred to Lord Carrington. Let me say now, with reference to the hon. Member for Glasgow, Hillhead (Mr. Galbraith), that the whole House, of course, will accept the conclusions of the Report on the hon. Gentleman, and that all of us welcome his announced reinstatement in the Government.
So, Mr. Speaker, we have this Report. Nobody is guilty, except the dead, nobody is being punished except the two journalists who refused to disclose their sources; and before I conclude, I must follow the right hon. Gentleman in referring to the question of the Tribunal procedure and

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the position of the Press. The Tribunal refused to obey the instruction of the Prime Minister that this inquiry should be turned into an inquisition on the conduct of the Press. The Tribunal dealt with security principally and the Press very much in passing, but great damage has been done.
As the Sunday Times put it:
"By the evening of the Radcliffe Tribunal's first open day (it not, indeed, from the moment when a very angry Mr. Macmillan announced its setting up) it was evident that the deepest wounds were going to be felt in Fleet Street, not in Whitehall; and so it has proved. These are scars which will take a long time to heal.
I think that that is true. Certainly, some of the wilder Press accusations and inventions have been exposed by the Tribunal as fiction, and most of these would have been avoided if the Prime Minister had proceeded to set up an inquiry as soon as the case for it became clear.
This is not the occasion for us to debate the Press. We are still waiting for the Government to find time to debate the Report of the Royal Commission, including the need for a really effective Press Council with an independent chairman and lay members. I would feel, however, arising out of the Report, that there is one code of conduct which should be rapidly applied, either voluntarily or in some other way and that the Press should be bound to stop this odious practice of buying for large sums the memoirs of convicted criminals. It has long been the practice in the procedure of this country that no one can make a profit out of a proven crime. This ought to be stopped, along with the undignified scramble in court, if a man is found guilty, as journalists jostle one another in their efforts to buy his memoirs.
What about the question of the disclosure of sources? If these journalists had had the same loss of memory that afflicted certain of the other witnesses they would not have been sent to gaol. Although one has completed his sentence and has been released today, I think that it would be right for the right lion, Gentleman to advise an act of clemency in the other case. He has made his point, for what it is worth. I repeat, on.the general principle, what I have said in the House before: no one, cer-
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tainly not the Press, claims absolute privilege for the security of his sources. No Press man in a capital murder case would allow an innocent man to be hanged by refusing to tell the truth and disclose his course of information. No one claims that his privilege, whatever it is, is absolute.
Nor, when the public interest is involved, can we argue that the code of journalistic ethics should override the public interest. What I am not happy about under the present Tribunal procedure is the way in which the public interest is decided. As far as I can understand, this question has never arisen in the 700 years' history of the courts. The Attorney-General once told us that. But it does come up, and it is liable to do so again, in tribunals. In my view—and I know that some of my hon. and learned Friends, and right hon. and learned Friends, will disagree —where there is a clash between the journalistic code of ethics, which involves the public interest, on the one hand, ant the public interest and security, on the other, the decision should be made by Parliament. Parliament is responsible for the Tribunals of Inquiry (Evidence) Act. We have not repealed it, or amended it. We are responsible for the decision to establish a Tribunal in a certain place. We are responsible for the terms of reference—in this case, as in all the others.
If, then, a Tribunal appointed by this House is frustrated in its work by a refusal to disclose sources, it should report back to us, exactly as a Select Committee reports back if it is unable to get on with its work because of a refusal of information. There may be a case where a Tribunal cannot do its job at all, and cannot get at the truth. In those circumstances, I suggest that it should report back to Parliament, which created it and gave it its job. I cannot think that Parliament would fail to act in such a case.
But there may be a case—as in the case of this Tribunal—where a Tribunal was not stopped in its tracks, and was not prevented from doing its job, but which ran into difficulties on certain points. This Report was not prevented from corning out by the failure of Mr. Mulholland and Mr. Foster to disclose their sources. In such a case the Tribunal should get on with its work, make its

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report, and draw the attention of Parliament to the fact that the public interest was affronted by the refusal to disclose sources. It would then be for Parliament to decide how germane these questions were to the whole Report, and to decide whether proceedings should be instituted.
I know that many hon. Members will disagree, and I put this forward purely as a personal point for consideration by the House. Some right hon. and learned Members will say that a Tribunal, once appointed and charged with the discovery of the truth, should be furnished with all the necessary powers, without reference back to this House. Against that, it could be argued that the Tribunal is not dealing with a legal matter or with the interpretation of the law, and that, when appointing it, the House could not realise in every case what is involved, or be able to foresee the clash between the public interest and the considerations affecting the freedom of the Press that might arise. That is why I stress that this is a personal view. Such a conflict of interest should be decided by the House and not by the courts.
Finally, we have the proposal of the Prime Minister for dealing with future cases. As I understood what he said, the security services are having some degree of success. It is possible to understand the divided feelings that the right hon. Gentleman has when these matters are reported to him, and that when so many of these may be coming along to him it will be necessary to set up some permanent machinery.
I can appreciate the argument. After all, if we appoint ad hoc inquiries into each case the people who carry them out will not obtain the necessary expertise and knowledge of the security srvices. So the Prime Minister wants us to have a special commission on spies, which would develop the necessary expertise, rather as the old Railway Rates Tribunal developed a certain familiarity with the problems in that field. If so many of these cases are expected to arise we shall have to be prepared, as a House, to consider the appointment of this spies commission. But I am bound to ask what the public reaction will be? What will be the reaction of our friends and allies when they realise that the problem has now grown to such dimensions that,
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for the first time in our history, we have to set up a permanent court to deal with this problem—a commission for spies?
The House will want to consider this question. I was glad that in putting it forward the Prime Minister linked it with the suggestion that there might be a committee of Privy Councillors. But we shall have to go further. If I understood him correctly, he said that we shall probably want to keep the Tribunal machinery in being—and he is probably right—for the very special cases for which it would be the right machinery.
But there is a good deal of disquiet on the part of hon. Members on both sides of the House about the working of the Tribunal machinery. The Prime Minister seemed to suggest that he was a little worried about it. I therefore suggest that the Government should consider appointing a Select Committee to consider the whole working of the 1921 Act, including some of the other questions that have arisen, such as costs, Press secrecy and the disclosure of sources, so that the House, in due course, may be advised and guided on the question whether any amendments are needed to the 1921 Act. The Select Committee co Procedure has already dealt with one aspect of the impact of these Tribunals on the House, but a full-dress Select Committee is needed.
The fact that the right hon. Gentleman has felt it necessary to announce this new machinery will be taken by the House as an indication of the gravity of the situation that we face. If that situation is as grave as the right hon. Gentleman seemed to indicate, I am bound to point out that other parts of his speech were a little complacent and inadequate. The House will not be able to leave this question of security where it is. We have been dealing with one Report, and the lessons to be derived from it. but it will not be long before the House will have to insist on a further and fuller debate on the whole question of our national security.
4.57 p.m.
Mr. Ian Gilmour: In attempting to address the House for the first time I ask for the indulgence which hon. Members are accustomed to grant to a Member finding himself in this highly nerve-racking situation. During the by-election campaign in

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Central Norfolk, which resulted in my becoming the representative of an extremely pleasant and varied constituency, the V assail agitation was at its height, although nobody seemed very interested in it. I am not competent to deal with matters of security, but as a journalist and a lawyer I should like to try to say something about the confrontation which took place between Government, the Law and the Press.
Complaints have been made against the procedure of the Tribunal, on the ground that it was inquisitorial. But such a Tribunal surely has to be inquisitorial, because it is engaged upon an inquiry. These Tribunals are set up to try to discover the truth about something, and they succeed very well. If we have an inquiry into something we necessarily have an inquisitorial procedure. No inquisitorial procedure—no inquiry. The normal British trial is not designed to find out the whole truth about something it is designed to produce a decision on the evidence, after a contest carried on between two sides according to certain narrow, fixed rules—a very different thing from an inquisitorial Tribun al.
In a previous debate it was suggested that a Select Committee would be a more appropriate investigating body, but I doubt whether that view could easily survive a study of the Committees set up to investigate the Jameson Raid and the Marconi scandal. It was only because of the glaring defects of those Committees that we started having Tribunals. What went on in the Marconi Committee was described at the time by F. E. Smith as "a grotesque travesty of judicial procedure". And I should have thought that the alternative proposal put forward—that Tribunals should refer matters for decision to the House of Commons—would be liable to produce a similar travesty. To have these matters decided according to the political advantage of the party in power, while using the protective colouring of judicial procedure, would be a reversion, it seems to me, to the more vexatious constitutional habits of the Stuarts.
If it is accepted that every now and then it is in the interests of the nation that the truth or falsity of something should be established as conclusively as may be, and that, therefore, an investi-
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gating body should be set up, it follows that that investi-
gating body must have the means of ensuring that it is able to do its job. It has been widely assumed that the issue of whether people should be punished for refusing to answer questions is one between liberty and authority. That is not so. It is not true that all the libertarian arguments are on one side.
I think that the McCarthy episode illustrates that —because McCarthy's victims were not the only people who refused to divulge their sources or their friends. The most conspicuous offender in that respect wasp the late Senator himself. In his speech which began McCarthyism, to the Republican Women of Wheeling, West Virginia, on 9th February, 1950, he said:
"I have here in my hand a list of 205 Communists in the State Department."
A diligent researcher, I think, eventually established that when he said that he did not have anything in his hand at all. In any event, he never gave any source or authority for his allegations, for the reason that he did not have one.
McCarthy juggled the figures a bit and went on to the next false and unsupported allegation and, in the process, he demoralised American public life, he destroyed many people's careers, and he damaged American liberties, including freedom of the Press and freedom of opinion. Neither the American Press nor the American Senate was ever able to pin McCarthy down and conclusively establish that he had no sources at all. As a result, he was able to create havoc and despair for four years. If the United States had possessed a tribunal of inquiry machinery, the whole McCarthyite plague might have been stamped out almost before it had begun. So I think that we ought to be rather careful about describing the persistent probing of people's sources as necessarily an abridgement of liberty.
In the campaign against the imprisonment of the two journalists—I hope that the House will think this a fair summary —broadly two arguments have been used. The first is that of conscience. We can all respect the consciences of Mr. Foster and Mr. Mulholland and, no doubt, in certain circumstances everybody would refuse to answer questions. But there is no ground whatever, I think,

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for believing that the consciences of journalists are more tender than those of other people, or that they should be treated as such. Parliament certainly did not think so in 1948, when it ordered the journalists concerned in the Allighan and Walkden affair to reveal their informants; nor did the Press itself in 1958, when at the Bank Rate Tribunal the journalists who were asked to do so revealed theirs. It is a little odd that what was accepted in 1958 should have become a desperate threat to the freedom of the Press in 1963.
Much of the alarm about the imprisonment of the two journalists, it seems to me, springs largely from two misconceptions. The first is to confuse Lobby correspondents with gossip columnists and general reporters. What is applicable to a Lobby correspondent is not applicable to everybody else.
What I regard as the greater misconception goes deeper. From much of the Fleet Street comment on what has happened one would get the impression that before the Tribunal there was day after day a torrent of secret and accurate political information poured into the ears of journalists, who were all the time relentlessly ferreting out reams of news, as a result of which the public was kept closely and reliably informed of everything that was going on; and that now, as a result of the Tribunal, this marvellously beneficent process of popular education had been jeopardised. This picture of the Press, before the Tribunal, is mere fantasy.
Over the years, there has probably been less political news published in England than in any other free country. William Randolph Hearst described news as what someone did not want published; everything else was advertising. In that sense there has long been a scarcity of political news in this country. A great deal of political speculation is published, some of it well on the mark and some of it miles from the truth. And in the Hearstian sense a good deal of political advertising is published. Journalists are assiduously briefed and earnest background discussions are held, as a result of which the newspapers normally print what they are told, or give their space over to money, sex and crime.
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This situation is very far indeed from being entirely the fault of the Press. The position of the Press has been undermined, as we know, by Gladstone's Treasury memorandum forbidding civil servants to give information to the newspapers, which has shielded the workings of the Executive from the intimate scrutiny of the Press; later by the Official Secrets Act and the capricious working of it; by the bid of the Press barons for personal power in the 1920s; and, more recently, by the increasing domination of the managerial over the editorial side of newspapers; and of course, by the ever-shrinking number of ownerships.
For the Press to have accepted all these disasters meekly and then turn round and make a tremendous hullabaloo about journalists being treated like other people and having to answer questions sems to me irrational; and for it to try to make up for these deep-seated disabilities by demanding for journalists a sort of confessional privilege is as futile as trying to cure a bad rash by scratching the spots.
Aside from the actual imprisonment of the journalists, the Press should surely have welcomed the events of the last few months. Relations between Press and Government should not be too intimate or cosy. It is no bad thing that there should be friction between the Press and politicians, and it is surprising that it is the Press which resents it. Yet the Press has behaved like a rejected suitor. It has fallen in love with its chains. The institutionalised confidential relationships which it values so highly have helped to emasculate it for years, and it has not even noticed. The father of the right hon. Member for Dundee, West (Mr. Strachey) used to say that the newspapers were the watchdogs of society. The trouble is that rather like seventeenth century judges, they have become watchdogs under the Throne.
We see the consequences of this Press impotence or abdication in the events leading up to the Bank Rate and Vassall Tribunals. Drugged by their normal diet of non-news stories and non-events, the newspapers tend to lose their heads when they are faced with what may really be a news story. Unsuitable people are put on Ito the story. When one watchdog barks, all the others bark too,

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although they have seen or heard nothing. Editors notoriously find it easier to believe what they read in other newspapers than in their own, and so their story has to be made as exciting as those elsewhere. Few journalists can withstand the tyranny of the deadline and the tyranny of the rival papers; and so rumours, fictions and inventions multiply. The watchdogs all give each other hydrophobia, and, eventually the only cure is a Tribunal.
During the last few months Fleet Street has shown none of the irreverence to itself which it takes pride in showing to everybody else. It should be concerned less, I would think, about its relations with the Government and more about its relations with its readers. Its problem is not whether journalists should answer questions. The problem which faces it is to see that journalists get better sources, so that newspapers can once again become the watchdogs of the nation.
5.12 p.m.
Mr. J. Grimond: It is a very great pleasure and honour to follow the hon. Member for Norfolk, Central (Mr. Ian Gilmour) on his maiden speech, and, on behalf of the whole House, to welcome and congratulate him most sincerely on a notable contribution. I know that it is not customary for a maiden speaker to be controversial. I am not quite sure whether he who follows to congratulate him can he a little controversial about his speech. if I am, I hope that he will take it as a compliment.
I should like to say that I have known the hon. Member a long time and I have even, on occasion, been asked to contribute to his paper, not so frequently of recent years, but still our relationship is good. I should also like to say that one of the things that endears him to me is that, in the past at any rate, he has not been afraid, in a most liberal and humane way, to differ occasionally from the line of the Conservative Party, and I hope that he will continue to do so.
I found the hon. Member's observations on the Press extremely interesting. The first thing that I should like to congratulate him on is that as a Press owner he is prepared to stand up and speak. I think that one of the difficulties in dealing with the Press is the hysterical terror shown by the owners of
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the Press of any form of criticism, and their total reluctance to come out in public and explain what they are trying to do and what are their motives. They claim, I think rightly, to be an important element in our affairs. They claim to be an estate of the realm and they must obviously be open to the same examination to which they subject politicians, businessmen and many other people.
What I found also interesting in the hon. Member's speech was that, in fact, so far from defending the Press, he was, on balance, extremely critical of it. If anything should happen to him in his future political career, I hope that he will be elevated to another place where he may debate these matters with his fellow owners who, no doubt, will be able to meet his criticisms.
However, I did not entirely agree with all that the hon. Member said. To begin with, I think that politicians tend to be hypocritical about the Press. In fact, we are all extremely anxious to appear in the Press, favourably if possible, but somehow at all costs. A lot of this arises from an undesirable desire for personal advertisement, but a lot of it is absolutely essential to democratic progress. If Parliament ceases to be reported, Parliament will cease, even more than ever, to be an important factor in the government of this country. The attention paid by the Press—if only in its headlines—to the proceedings of the House of Commons is one of the things that gives me confidence in the future democracy of this country.
I do not want to get involved now about television of the House of Commons, but those who say that we should not go on television because we like our consultations to be private, we like to speak only to each other, are really not being strictly honest.
Certainly, no one can possibly defend the personal abuse which fills much of the Press. No one can defend the presentation of fiction as fact, but, on the other hand, it is always unfair to generalise about the Press as a whole. It covers an enormous number of extremely conscientious journalists who take infinite trouble to find out the facts, and it also cover a great many editors whose opinions are widely respected and highly responsible. It covers papers from the highest form of technical paper, through

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the weeklies, and down to papers that are, in fact, not papers at all, but entertainment.
One of the difficulties in dealing with the case of a few journalists is that one cannot apply the same standards right throughout journalism, because same of it is not journalism at all in the sense that Milton spoke about journalism. I doubt whether the hon. Member for Norfolk, Central would like to be linked in all respects with some of his contemporary rivals. There are certain differences even between the Spectator and the New Statesman and there is a much greater difference, of course, throughout the whole of the Press.
The hon. Member made a good point when he said that to ask people to reveal their sources of information is not always an infringement of liberty, and he quoted the case of Senator McCarthy. What I found alarming about that incident was that there appeared at times to be the claim that the State has an absolute right to demand that anyone shall expose the source of his information, whether he is a journalist or not. It may be that the State will inevitably make that claim, but it is extremely important that it should be resisted. It may be that, in the upshot, people have to go to prison, but I do not accept the view, nor, I think, does the hon. Member, that in every case the State has the absolute right to demand the sources of information.
I very much agree with the hon. Member that it is a good thing that relations in general between politicians and the Press should sometimes vary from the poor to the bad. I thought that the hon. Member was a little unfair, although I must say how difficult it is to be fair to the Prime Minister because I doubt whether the Prime Minister feels that the Press are lions under his throne. I have many criticisms of the Press, because I think that it accepts hand-outs too easily, but, on the whole, I do not think that it can be said that the Press is the paid lackey of the Government, and I am thankful that it is not.
As long as the Press reports the major aspects of politics—and I must put on record on this point that this is done in the cheapest forms of the Press which is the most widely read—it plays an impor-
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tant part in our affairs. I personally hope that there will be a stronger Press Council and that it will have a lay chairman. I hope that the Press will be more self-critical and that when criticism is made it will be directed to those who are responsible, the owners. Are not journalists, for the most part, merely carrying out their orders? May I once again congratulate the hon. Member on behalf—
Mr. W. R. Rees-Davies: The right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond) levels these criticisms which affect the position of the Press and says that it is the newspaper barons and not the journalists who are to blame. Would not he go as far as saying that the professional standards which are applied by the General Medical Council or the Bar Council to their professions could reasonably be applied also in relation to those in a professional capacity within the Press?
Mr. Grimond: I should have no objection to agreeing with that. It is one reason why I think that the Press Council ought to be strengthened so that it could establish those standards. But I cannot help suspecting that if the Press owners let it be known that they disapproved of the kind of things said lately about Ministers and civil servants, these things would disappear from the Press.
The Prime Minister opened this debate on a much more subdued note than he used in his speech when announcing the setting up of the Tribunal. The right hon. Gentleman made one positive suggestion with which I should like to deal. I am one who favours the creation of special committees of Parliament to look after specialist subjects, so I am not at all adverse to the idea which he put forward. But I think that there are grave difficulties. The idea is that there should be a committee of Privy Councillors. I recently joined the "trade union" of the Privy Council and, therefore, I cannot be accused of bias in this matter. But I am not certain why the committee should be confined to privy councillors, or that a two-tier system in Parliament is altogether good. But that is a minor point.
I understand that this committee is to sit after there has been some breach of security and decide whether it is a

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matter which should go to a standing tribunal. To my mind, a lot of the trouble which has arisen from this and other tribunals is because of insufficent care in pinpointing the matter into which the tribunal is to inquire and the failure in giving sufficient care to the drawing up of its terms of reference. To my mind, this tribunal procedure should be used sparingly. I am not at all clear that to have a standing tribunal would be a good thing. It would become a repository for far too many cases.
I am not clear about what powers the Privy Councillors or the standing tribunal would have. Would it consider only particular cases or be able to consider, for instance, the positive vetting procedure? Would it be allowed to investigate arrangements for security within a Department? What is to be the effect on Parliament? Let us take the case of a spy who has been discovered. He is brought to trial and therefore at that stage the matter is sub judice. I suppose that then it is referred to the Privy Councillors and it will be still sub judice because it may go to the tribunal. If Parliament is not careful it will shut itself off from a discussion of the matter for a considerable period at a very vital moment, and I think that we ought to consider very carefully whether we want to do that.
What is to be the effect on legal action? We know already that there has been difficulty in following up offences after they have been considered by a tribunal. Therefore, while I do not object to this, I feel that we ought to have from the Leader of the House considerably more detail of the proposals. The right hon. Gentleman should deal with the questions I have asked.
Coming to the Report of the Vassall Tribunal, my first question is, were Lord Radcliffe and his colleagues supplied with all the information already made available to the Civil Service, both written information and a list of the witnesses? If not, what became of it? Who decided that the Tribunal should not get it?
The Prime Minister skated rather easily over the genesis of this Tribunal. It was most peculiar. If hon. Members cast their minds back, they will remember that there was a serious breach of security by Vassall. The Prime Minister was pressed again and again to set up a high-
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level tribunal to inquire into that breach but he steadfastly refused to do so. There were also allegations against the First Lord of the Admiralty, and on this ground also the right hon. Gentleman refused Ito do more than appoint three Civil servants.
Then there came the dinner party described in the Report as a singular meeting". Allegations were made that the hon. Member for Glasgow, Hillhead (Mr. Galbraith) had arranged to meet Vassall in Italy and that Vassall was to decamp to the Russians and the hon. Gentleman was in some way involved. I made it perfectly clear in the previous debate that I never believed a word of the allegations against the hon. Gentleman. But the curious thing is that this cock-and-bull story—the journalist concerned apparently said that he was absolutely satisfied that there was no word of truth in it—was the thing which induced the Prime Minister to set up this whole Tribunal. Very rarely can there have been a more eccentric reason to put into operation the whole paraphernalia of a judicial tribunal.
Did the Prime Minister believe that there could be any truth in the allegations? I could never understand why he accepted the resignation from the Government of the hon. Member for Hillhead. It has indeed been said that the Prime Minister encouraged his resignation. This was the genesis of the Tribunal and, as I say, it is the most extraordinary reason that could ever have been given for setting up an inquiry of this sort. The security of the country had no effect so far as the Tribunal was concerned. But as the result of a dinner party at which these allegations were made we had this inquiry.
This had one important effect from the very outset. It confused two separate issues. One, to my mind, was not suitable for consideration by a tribunal at all—the vague allegations mentioned in the terms of reference. But there was a matter of definite public importance to be inquired into and that was the breach of security by Vassall. That was a proper matter for inquiry. But if hon. Members read the rest of the terms of reference, they must surely conclude that they are intolerably wide. The Tribunal was to inquire into:
"any other allegations which have been or may be brought to their attention, reflecting

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similarly on the honour and integrity of persons who, as Ministers, naval officers and civil servants, were concerned in the case."
The Tribunal did an extraordinarily good job in not getting hopelessly lost in these terms of reference.
As I said, I believe that this procedure should be used sparingly and terms of reference should be prepared very carefully. It must be used with reference to a definite matter of urgent public importance and should not be used to drag a net along the sea bottom, so to speak, to see who gets caught in it. People who were caught in the so-called leak tribunal had a very strong case for saying that their reputations were harmed for no reason.
Regarding the security aspect, which to my mind is a proper subject for inquiry, no one is blamed too much except Mr. Pennells. I think that the Tribunal was right not to apportion blame. It learned the lesson of past tribunals. I do not think that is the business of the Tribunal but, as the Prime Minister has said, the business of the Government who are ultimately responsible for security and for taking action on the findings of a tribunal. I do not dissent from the Tribunal being sparing of blame. I do dissent from the Government showing any complacency about the facts found by the Tribunal or this House taking the attitude that everything is well.
After all, Vassall was still going on photographing documents for a considerable time after the Lonsdale case, and I cannot get away from the feeling that security is given a low priority and even judging by certain reactions since the announcement of the findings of this Tribunal—that it is taken much too casually in some high places. The first need is to re-emphasise the point made about secret material. The committee on security which sat before under Lord Radcliffe strongly emphasised the importance of not classifying too many documents. In sections 27 and 28 of this Report it is pointed out that it is difficult to prevent people in the position of Vassall from handling secret documents. I am surprised at that.
My recollection of the Army is that there were certain documents which were handled only by clerks of a certain rank and precautions were taken over
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locking up these documents or moving them about. I am surprised that, unless far too many documents are classified, more cannot be done in this direction. Surely if clerks like Vassall are to be allowed to handle secret documents, they should be positively vetted. That point has been made at various inquiries. Vassall was not subjected to positive vetting for over a year after he was, in fact, in the pay of the Russians, and when his vetting was carried out, it did not discover very much.
Again, it seems to me that positive vetting must be something more than the taking up of references supplied by the civil servant himself and that not only must other people be asked but his past record must be closely examined. Had it been in this case, it is inconceivable that something would not have been found out which would have made Vassall a doubtful security risk.
This whole question of security risk has altered, as is known. The Report points out that up to quite recently what security primarily was concerned about was people who might be a danger because of subversion. Only when the Privy Councillors looked into this matter did the examination of people who might be subject to pressures because of personal feelings become important. What is important now is not only to trace breaches of security after they have happened but to ensure that people like Vassal' do not get into a position where they can happen. If it is said that that involves certain infringement of the rights of individuals, this too often has been made an excuse for what is simply incompetence. It is no infringement of the liberty of the individual to go through a procedure known to him in order to check his suitability for a certain post. It is no infringement on the rights of an individual to ensure that the system of security is effective. What I agree might be an infringement would be to take inappropriate action after checking his or her suitability or to carry out a general and secret examination of all the people in the public service unknown to them and whether it was necessary or not for the posts they hold.
Then we get to Moscow. Had there been any complaints about security in the Moscow Embassy before? Had there been any demand that. Vassall's position

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should be filled by a Service man? I am glad to hear from the Prime Minister that this is now to be the case, but had not this suggestion been made before? It seems lo me extraordinary that the Russians could find out so quickly and accurately the weakness of Vassall which was unknown to his superiors for seven years. I can hardly believe that there were not suspicions in Moscow that he was susceptible to certain pressures.
This was eventually brought to the attention of the powers in the Embassy by Miss Wynne. What has happened to Miss Wynne? She appears to be a woman of perspicacity. I hope that she has been promoted and that other people like Miss Wynne are being ecouraged. I hope that she has not been neglected. I find it very odd that, Miss Wynne having drawn this matter to everyone's attention, no action should have been taken on it. This must arouse doubt about whether action has been taken on other recommendations. There is a very strong recommendation in Lord Radcliffe's previous Report that people who have been brainwashed should not be employed in posts involving security. May we have an assurance that this recommendation has been carried out? May we also have an assurance in rather more precise terms than the Prime Minister gave that the other recommendations of the previous Report are in operation? It must be remembered that this Report had been made before Vassall was discovered and tried, yet it does not appear that any great efforts were made in the Embassy with regard to it.
We all feel extremely sorry for Mr. Pennells. It is said that he should have made representations. How do we know that he did not? He made a very sensible representation that married people should be sent to Moscow. This would seem to be a sensible and, indeed, elementary representation, yet it was turned down. Perhaps he had come to the conclusion that it was no good making representations because no notice was taken of them. Mr. Pennells was not responsible for the procedure which Lord Radcliffe, rightly, found inadequate. Quite why he should be picked out in this way when a good deal of responsibility rested on his seniors is not apparent. The Prime Minister explained that Mr. Pennells had given long service, and I suppose that, apart from expressions of regret in this
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House, there is, unfortunately, little more that we car do about it.
I wish to finish by returning to the question of the tribunal procedure. As I read the 1921 Act, it does not limit this House either in the form of the tribunal or in the terms of reference given to it. These are both points of great importance. While I think that a judge who is accustomed to dealing with evidence is the most suitable person to act as chairman, it is, as a general rule, probably wise to let him have assessors who are particularly experienced in the matter into which inquiries have to be made. While these tribunals have, through no fault of their own, dredged up unfortunate allegations against individuals, I wonder whether they get to the bottom of the particular flatters into which they are supposed to inquire. The House is rather too easily impressed with their efficiency and efficacy. They are ad hoc bodies set up to deal quickly with a difficult matter, and it would be surprising if they could elicit the full facts.
What I am sure about is that this form of tribunal is not a suitable instrument for reinstating the characters of Ministers. When this Tribunal was set up, I inquired why the matter could not be dealt with by Ministers going through the ordinary process of law and issuing writs for libel. The Attorney-General pointed out that this might have bad consequences with regard to criminal libel. I accept that there are difficulties, but since then this is exactly the course which the Secretary of State for War has taken. When allegations were made about his behaviour he announced in the House that if they 'went on he would take proceedings for libel. I think that he was right. As far as I know, the allegations have stopped. It therefore cannot be said that this is not a procedure open to Ministers because one Minister has just exercised it. There was no suggestion that a tribunal should be set up to examine the allegations, such as they were, made about the Secretary of State. If it is to be said that the libel procedure is not, or should not be, open to Ministers, we should have had a tribunal on that case.
It may be argued that the present law of libel needs reform. That is a different point. It may be a good one. But I do not accept either that Ministers need to

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be placed in a particular category or that the ordinary process of law is not open to them. Neither do I accept, after what has happened in the case of the Secretary of State for War, that it is Government policy that this should not happen. I therefore believe that that aspect of tribunals can often be dealt with in that way. Otherwise they should be confined to matters of fact as far as possible and to definite matters of public importance. They should be appointed as quickly as possible, and I much regret that this Tribunal was not appointed as quickly as possible. A lot of trouble would have been saved if it had been appointed quicker.
There is the difficulty to which the hon. Member for Norfolk, Central drew attention, that this is an inquisitorial procedure which is not the common method of British law; that there is no charge against anyone and that there is no presentation of both sides of the case. It is a dangerous procedure which should be used sparingly. If it is used, it should be used on a definite matter and should be used quickly, and the terms of reference, for which this House is and must remain responsible, should be most carefully drawn up.
5.38 p.m.
Sir Charles Mott-Radclyffe: As has been rightly pointed out already, the principal features of the Tribunal's Report concern security much more than any action of the Press. One has only to read it to realise that nearly three-quarters of the paragraphs in it are directed to that issue.
There are two or three essential points which i think should be brought out. The first which should be brought out very clearly is the constant pressure which is exercised by the Communists against all members of the British Embassy in Moscow, and, for that matter against all members of Western diplomatic missions. It applies not only in Moscow but in every Iron Curtain country and pretty well everywhere else in the world. Every human weakness is exploited.
The moment that a human weakness is shown the Communists are quickly on it. If it is an ideological weakness defection is very easy. Detection is much more difficult. If a man has a weakness for money he can easily be compromised by black
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market activities. If he has homosexual weaknesses he can be easily blackmailed. If he has a weakness for a blonde or brunette he is subject to blackmail of a different kind. The point which is brought out is that all human weaknesses are watched for month in and month out by the Communists as a sustained effort to penetrate the whole of our security system, wherever it may be. This is their kind of peaceful co-existence in the field.
To be honest, I admit that, to some extent, democracy is at a disadvantage because all along the line we are on the defensive. We are bound to be. The Prime Minister posed the question: what chinks are there in our existing armour and how can they be repaired? How can our security services be made more efficient within the framework of a free society? If all traditional civil liberties were abandoned, the matter would be a great deal easier of solution. If the passports of all civil servants working in what is called a sensitive branch handling secret documents were impounded so that before they could go for a ski-ing holiday in Switzerland or could take their children for a holiday in Brittany in the summer they had to get an exit permit from the Home Office, if anybody could be arrested without a warrant, and if telephone tapping and microphones were a matter of course, our security services would be much more efficient, but I think that somewhere along that path we should have to stop and look back and ask ourselves who was winning the cold war.
Nor do I think that we can conceivably run a Foreign Service upon the basis that in every embassy abroad there is one man, a kind of equivalent of the N.K.V.D., known to be there for the sole purpose of spying on the private lives of all the other personnel in the embassy and on what they are doing out of office hours. We must not forget, as my hon. Friend the Member for Norfolk, Central (Mr. Ian Gilmour) said in his brilliant maiden speech, that McCarthyism came very close to breaking the morale of the American foreign service.
It is plain that the Report focuses on certain obvious weaknesses in the system. I think that it is a bad principle that the Foreign Office does not apparently, or did not then, have any say in the matter of who should be appointed as the naval attaché's clerk

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in Moscow or to any other post. I realise that the Foreign Office could not be expected to know much about the personnel in the Admiralty or who the candidates were likely to be, but I should have thought that it was desirable that the same system of vetting, both negative and positive before the man went to Moscow and after he came back, should be applied to all clerks in Service attaché's departments in exactly the same way as it would be applied to any member of the Foreign Service.
The second weakness which is clearly brought out in the Report is that the senior members of the staff of the Embassy in Moscow were curiously unaware of the degree of ingratiation which Mikhailski had succeeded in achieving with the junior staff. They should have been more aware of that. To be fair, I realise that this is a good deal easier said than done. It is easy enough in a small post where everybody knows what everybody else is doing to check on that kind of thing. It is not easy in a bigger post unless everybody lives in a compound—and compound existence is, for many obvious reasons, very undesirable. But in big cities like Moscow, where staff are living all over the place in different blocks of flats miles apart, it is not as easy to check on this as appears at first sight.
It is also true that more notice should have been taken inside the Embassy of the warnings given by the two members of the staff, Miss Wynne and another officer, against Mikhailski's activities. Here again, I can well imagine that the Ambassador must have been in an awful dilemma. No doubt this frequently occurs elsewhere. A careful course must be steered between being too lax, with the vast repercussions which flow therefrom, and perhaps breaking a man's career on gossip alone. It is not always a very easy decision to take.
I come now to the other side of the Report. Two Ministers' careers might well have been broken by gossip alone, all of which has been found to be without foundation. Grave charges and insinuations were bandied about, concerning both public and private lives, in a most irresponsible way. The fact that these charges have been found to be completely baseless is not a matter
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of surprise to any of us who know Lord Carrington and my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Hillhead (Mr. Galbraith), whose return to the Front Bench we all welcome. The whole of that smear campaign and the way it was built up leave a somewhat unpleasant taste in the mouth.
I come next to the two imprisoned journalists. I should have thought that this was almost a kind of occupational hazard of their profession, and indeed of other professions. I do not subscribe to the theory—I do not think they are asking for it—that they should enjoy an immunity not enjoyed by any other section of the community. I suppose that once in every fifty years or so some doctor or some lawyer might find himself in a position where he felt unable to disclose something which had been said to him in confidence by a patient or by a client, and might well have to suffer the consequences. That would go for a profession of journalism as well. If some of the wilder requests had been acceded to and if there had been no sanction at all against a journalist who refused to disclose his source, we should surely get into the ridiculous position that any journalist could invent anything, however damaging, about anybody in public life, could attribute it to a non-existent source, and suffer no consequences. I do not think that is a situation which any of us in the House would like to see, and I believe that very few people outside would like to see it either.
I want, lastly, to say something about Vassall himself. I was very glad that the Leader of the Opposition referred to the rather disgraceful practice by which criminals & time to time sell their reminiscences to newspapers for large sums. Vassall's letters were bought for a sum alleged to be between £6,000 and £7,000. While he is serving his sentence I suppose that money will be wisely invested by some friend of his and it will be a nice little nest egg when he comes out of prison.
When he comes out, having served his sentence, he may well be able to sell the story of his life in prison to some other newspaper for a very large sum. Therefore, we have the paradox that at the end of the story Vassall will be infinitely better off than he would have been had he continued as a loyal and honourable

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civil servant with whatever pension was due to him at the end of his service.
If a muddy pool is dredged, the smell is quite unpleasant and all sorts of particles and bits and pieces come to the surface which will not go through the mesh of any sieve. However, when the operation is over it is at least possible to distinguish between the clear water and the polluted water. I think that the whole House ought to be grateful to Lord Radcliffe and to his colleagues for performing the dredging operation.
5.49 p.m.
Mr. F. J. Bellenger: I wish to refer briefly to the maiden speech of the hon. Member for Norfolk, Central (Mr. Ian Gilmour) and to the speech of the Leader of the Liberal Party, the right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond). Every hon. Member who listened to the speech of the hon. Member for Norfolk, Central will agree that it was a witty but, as the Leader of the Liberal Party said, somewhat provocative speech, which is not usual in maiden speeches. I do not want to answer in the same terms, but I do not think that we ought to let the remarks the hon. Gentleman made pass without saying something. He said that journalists who are supposed to be the watchdogs have nothing very much to bite on and, therefore, imagine all sorts of things.
Journalists are under a sense of frustration today as opposed to the days when they were famous reporters of what was going on. Today Foreign Office journalists, or those who make a speciality of foreign affairs, go to the Foreign Office every morning, I believe, and are given a Press briefing. In other words, it is useless for the hon. Gentleman to criticise the Press and reporters if they are not allowed freedom to get their news in every legal way that they possibly can. I do not think that the system of hand-outs and Press briefings which take place in Government Departments nowadays to most of our journalists is a good substitute for the days when journalists, particularly the foreign correspondent of The Times in Paris, was able to report all sorts of things that the public would never hear of under present conditions.
I do not agree with the Leader of the Liberal Party that the law of libel is a sufficient safeguard by which a Minister
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or a Member of the House or, indeed, many other people can establish or reestablish integrity and bona fides. Hon. Members may have seen some correspondence in The Times recently about the time it takes to get an action for libel brought before the courts and the initial expense that has to be incurred in order to bring the case on with all the witnesses.
Following up what the hon. Member for Norfolk, Central said about Tribunals, I should have thought that in a case such as the one we have just had and which we are now debating a Select Committee of the House of Commons would have been a more appropriate body to investigate these various matters. After all, one of the Ministers—the hon. Member for Glasgow, Hillhead (Mr. Galbraith)—is a Member of this House and his honour was impugned. What better body to sit in judgment on him than the House or a Select Committee of the House? Then there is the case of the First Lord of the Admiralty, about which I shall have something to say in a few moments.
I have sent a note to the hon. Member for Hillhead telling him that I intend to refer to him. Long before the Tribunal had reported, hon. Members and a much wider circle than that had acquitted the hon. Member of any improper relations, as the Report makes clear. However, having said that, I am bound to say this. I look with a certain amount of alarm at the free and easy way in which Ministers of the Crown can deal with junior civil servants.
As it turns out, the company that Mr. Vassall was keeping was quite different company from that which the Minister was accustomed to keep, and, unfortunately, a certain amount of mud stuck to the hon. Member for Hillhead, partly for that reason and partly, I am bound to say—do not let us be squeamish about this—because of the gossip which emanated not only outside in the Press, but inside this building.
It is a strange coincidence, as the Leader of the Liberal Party said, that the hon. Member for Nottingham, West (Mr. Tapsell) could have that dinner party quite casually and discuss the matters which were discussed and which the journalist admitted he did not believe. If hon. Members lend themselves to that

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sort of gossip, it is small wonder that even under the Lobby code of secrecy it spreads wider and, as in this case, spreads outside the House.
Mr. Rees-Davies: In the absence of my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham, West (Mr. Tapsell), would it not be fair to say that until Boyd-Maunsell arrived at the dinner my hon. Friend did not know what the journalist was going to say and after the dinner he went straight to the Chief Whip and reported it? It is fair to say that, is it not?
Mr. Bellenger: I do not know whether it is quite so, but I accept it from the hon. Gentleman that the hon. Member for Nottingham, West knew nothing whatever about what the journalist was going to have dinner with him for. When I accept engagements to have dinner, either with journalists or others, I have a shrewd idea of what the occasion will be about. It could hardly have been a purely social engagement. However, the hon. Member has been in the House, listening to this debate, and perhaps he can explain to the House a little more about what did happen at that dinner party.
We ate entiled to know, because arising out of that dinner party certain things followed. The most important thing, in my opinion, was the resignation which the hon. Member for Hillhead offered to the Prime Minister, which the Prime Minister accepted, whereas I should have thought that he would not have accepted it until after the Tribunal had reported and not before.
Mr. Wigg: Surely my right hon. Friend is wrong in his dates. The hon. Member for Glasgow, Hillhead (Mr. Galbraith) had resigned before the dinner party. My right hon. Friend seems to have overlooked the fact that, when the Prime Minister was told that there was a possibility of the hon. Member for Hillhead "doing a Pontecorvo", what the Prime Minister then did was to act as if the situation was in doubt, but he took no precautions whatever to safeguard against the possibility of it being true. In other words, the hon. Member for Hillhead had resigned and the Prime Minister then Wed this irresponsible tittle-tattle as an excuse for setting up the Tribunal.
Mr. Bellenger: My recollection is not the same as my hon. Friend's about the
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date of the resignation, but perhaps he is right. I see that the hon. Member for Nottingham, West has returned to the Chamber. My point is this. The Calle-tattle—worse than that; the slanderous conversation, in my opinion —which took place at that dinner party formed the basis for the Tribunal, but, in effect, it did a great injustice to the hon. Member for Hillhead. I cannot put all the blame on the Press. I put some of it on hon. Members. We know the gossip that goes on in the various precincts of the House. Much of it is harmless, but some of it, as on this occasion, is very dangerous indeed.
So much for the Report as it affects the hon. Member for Hillhead. The fact that a Minister can say that one of his clerks has "a screw loose" and pass it off just like that and can associate with him on the very easy terms that he did is something that having had experience of Ministerial office, cannot understand.
I come to the security aspect. Whatever the Report says in its conclusions, it stands out a mile not only that our Whitehall security arrangements were sketchy, to say the least but—something far more dangerous—in Moscow they were almost criminally negligent. I want to refer to three points which, I hope, other hon. Members will not gloss over. If they disagree, I hope that they will answer them. If they are of the same opinion as myself, I hope that they will say so.
The three points which are as clear as daylight and which involve the then Ambassador. Sir William Hayter, are glossed over in a whitewashing summary at the end of the Report. I do not think that Parliament should accept this. I have an Amendment on the Order Paper which, I understand, will not be called, so that we shall not have an opportunity to express cur opinion by a vote, but what I do say is that the Ambassador, Sir William Hayter, who is whitewashed in the Report, was guilty of more than negligence.
I take, for instance, what was said by his own naval attaché, Captain Bennett. I have the references in the Report. if hon. Members want them, although I imagine that they have all read them. Here was Vassall's immediate superior who said, right at the start,

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that he was a homosexual, or, at least, had a homosexual tendency. The Report says somewhere that, if this had been known or established, he would have been sent home. Apparently, in the eyes of the tribunal, homosexuals, at least behind the Iron Curtain, are not the best sort of people to put in positions of that kind where they may be handling secret documents. But we are told in the Report that the Ambassador, when he was told about it by the naval attaché who went to see him, laughed it off; he thought that it was a joke.
I wish to say nothing about the private relations of these abnormal gentlemen. I am at present concerned only with their public position. It seems that, too often, in high places these peculiarities or abnormalities, to call them such, are shrugged off or laughed off with a simper. In my view, when they affect the security and safety of our State, as we now know that they do, it is criminal, or criminally negligent, for an Ambassador to take no action, as Sir William Hayter took no action.
Commander Anthony Courtney: I wonder whether it will help the right hon. Gentleman's argument on that point if he knows—this does not appear in the Report—that the Ambassador was, for several years before his appointment to Moscow, chairman of the Joint Intelligence Committee of the Chiefs of Staff and was, therefore, in the best position of any member of the Foreign Service, or, indeed, of all in this country to know the real extent of the menace facing him in Moscow.
Mr. Bellenger: I do not know about that. I am speaking purely as a man of the world, as a Member of Parliament, as we all are, used to all sorts of strange things happening in our constituencies and elsewhere. I do not gloss over, as the Report has done, the negligence of Sir William Hayter in doing nothing.
There is the case of Miss Wynne, the typist, who raised the alarm quite soundly. It is said in the Report that two other people had been sent home. For what, we do not know. We cannot say whether it was for any similar occurrence. But here was somebody in the Embassy doing, in public-spirited
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fashion, what she and all members of the staff had been told to do, that is, to report any strange occurrence. Miss Wynne did report, but nothing happened.
I ask right hon. and hon. Members opposite to consider whether there is blame to be attached to the Ambassador at that time. I shall not say too much about this because, obviously, the matter has been hushed up. It has been hushed up in the Report. The Press dare not say too much, but we in Parliament can say just what we think and how this Report strikes us. The only real condemnation in the Report is of Mr. Pennells, a dead man, for whom no evidence whatever was given.
If the Tribunal is to apportion any blame, it should apportion some to the living as well as to the dead. But this has not been done, and I submit to the House that the Report is not a satisfactory document. Indeed, it is more than one-sided. I make no comment about it being unfair, but it seems to me that the Tribunal, however eminent its members, was more concerned to judge the dead than the quick.
What is to be done about the future? Obviously, in the mind of a good many right hon. and hon. Members there is real concern about the security issue. The Prime Minister's speech today was, in many respects, a somewhat complacent effort and he had in mind an objective rather different from that which many of us have. Perhaps the Prime Minister was right in his approach. He was certainly right in endeavouring to re-establish the bona fides of the hon. Member for Hillhead, although, as I have said, no hon. Member, long before the Tribunal reported, dreamt for a moment that there was any truth in the serious allegations about the hon. Gentleman. But we are concerned with security. We heard the Prime Minister say today that there will be quite a few more cases coming along. That is a serious statement to make. It seems to suggest that our security, even after this affair, after the Romer Report and the earlier Radcliffe Report, is not watertight.
As my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition said, the public generally are deeply concerned. There is a feeling outside, which has been expressed or hinted at—one has only to read the article by Mr. Malcolm Muggeridge in this

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morning's Daily Herald—that these personal abnormalities seem to occur in high places. Vassall was suitable to dine at the Ambassador's table, but he was known as "Vera" to all the junior staff. What does this indicate to hon. Members who know how many beans make five in this very material world?
All this sweet innocence at the Embassy was in marked contrast to the more practical approach of Mr. Mikhailski. Of course, he was planted there. I wonder how many homosexuals we plant in the Russian Embassy here? Have we an agency here to supply these most accommodating gentlemen? Of course not. Russian security is far tighter than British security. I say to the hon. Member for Windsor (Sir C. Mott-Radclyffe) that, when the battle is going on day in and day out between the Western nations and the enemy, no holds are barred to them, only to us, apparently, because we are too gentlemanly, or too ignorant to prescribe the right security methods.
I put a specific point to the Government. It is quite evident that a new pattern is now emerging among spies. In earlier days, the spy was the glamorous Mata Hari sort of woman who used to get her man. Now, it seems that persons with weak tendencies, tendencies towards homosexuality, are easy prey to the Russians, who seem to specialise in this sort of trap. The Tribunal suggests somewhere that it took it for granted that, if Vassall's character had been detected and it had been known that he was a homosexual, he would have been whisked off home at once.
I put this question to the Leader of the House who, I understand, is to reply to the debate. In the vetting procedures which are to apply in the future, will he ensure specifically that those with homosexual tendencies are kept away from our foreign embassies or, at least, from positions of importance in those embassies so that they cannot fall into a trap set by those who are already waiting for them? This is an important question. The House probably knows my views on the matter generally, and I do not wish to elaborate them now. Whatever may be said for toleration towards those who have these tendencies, the fact remains that they are security risks.
What does the right hon. Gentleman intend to do? This is what the public
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have at the back of their mind. They have heard too much about it. They are beginning to wonder whether there is an element in what they would call generically the "Establishment" which can get away with it while men in the workshops and industrial establishments who are dealing with secret weapons or processes are subject to much more rigid investigation and vetting if they happen to have Communist tendencies or associations. I say nothing about that. When we are dealing with the security of the State, we have to take every precaution we can and we must exclude people who are a danger to the State.
When I first started work, I went to the General Post Office as a boy messenger. Although I was not very old at the time, I remember clearly to this day how I had to go to Bow Street and swear an oath and be subject to investigation into my antecedents before I was accepted for service n the Post Office in those days. I put it to the right hon. Gentleman that there has been considerable slackness in this matter and I ask him to give a specific answer to my question tonight.
Now, the position of the First Lord of the Admiralty. It used to be a custom that, if things went wrong in a Department, the Minister took the blame. He did the honourable thing and resigned. The hon. Member for Hillhead resigned. The First Lord is still there. I do not say that he knew that there was a spy in the Admiralty, another spy. The Tribunal said that he did not, and I accept it. Houghton, who was said to be a liar whose word was not acceptable to the Tribunal or any court, knew that there was another one there and said so.
This may be passed off with a shrug and the comment that he was such a liar that no one could believe him. But there have been certain suspicious happenings. There are one or two other incidents which have been investigated and hushed up. What about the Admiralty messenger who was trussed up and murdered? The murderer has never been found. All sorts of suggestions are being made, some of which, of course, the Tribunal dismissed. In view of what the Prime Minister said this afternoon, I am still wondering where the other eases are coming from.
The First Lord should take the blame and resign. His Department has been at

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fault not only on this occasion, but on previous occasions, and he should do the decent thing, like the hon. Member for Hillhead, and resign from his office. Because Ministers are responsible under their warrant to the Crown and to Parliament, we do not in this House criticise civil servants, although the Tribunal has exposed many weaknesses in our Civil Service and it was not afraid to say that one civil servant, now dead, was remiss and lacking in judgement. If this be true of civil servants—we cannot criticise them—what about Ministers under whom they serve? In my view, the First Lord should resign his office, and I hope that there will be others who will say so as clearly as I have.
I do not know at the moment what to think about the Prime Minister's suggestion. Obviously, we cannot openly debate the security issue in this House. There are many aspects of this case we shall never know. I shall be interested to see the minutes of evidence when published, since perhaps much more may be disclosed in the questions and answers of witnesses. But we shall not know how Vassall was detected.
It would be interesting to know this because we could thereby perhaps see the associations of the trail laid between him and others, possibly still in the Admiralty. The Tribunal says that there speculation must and. But it will not end. This will be talked about fox a long time, and when the next spy turns up I will not be surprised if it is a matter of such importance that the Opposition puts down a Motion of censure on the Government. They have not done so today, and after the speech of my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Oposition I wonder why not.
It is not sufficient for the Prime Minister merely to talk to the Leader of the Opposition, as he did after this Report was published. There are ex-Ministers of the Crown here—Privy Councillors—who have had a great deal to do with intelligence matters especially in the Service Departments. From time to time, some of them should be allowed access in some way or another—whether in ways suggested by the Prime Minister or not I do not know—to these matters, because then they might be able to put before the Prime Minister, who is pri-
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marily responsible for security, certain points which he would not look at if put across the Floor of the House, as he would not today accept my right hon. Friend's suggestion of a Select Committee to consider security matters.
I ask the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster to give serious attention to some of these matters which cannot be discussed openly, but which are causing great apprehension and perturbation in the minds of those who have served as Ministers of the Crown and who know the possibilities of serious trouble. There, I must leave the matter for tonight.
I am not satisfied with this Report. I think that it is a whitewashing Report. It is one-sided inasmuch as it criticises a dead man and says nothing against those others who gave evidence—or did not give evidence because of their convenient covering up. For that reason, I put down my Amendment, which I regret is not being called. Nevertheless, I have expressed the motives behind my Amendment even if I am unable to get the House to vote on it.
6.18 p.m.
Sir Richard Thompson: The important thing about our consideration of the Report is to get the conclusions right which we draw from it and to act on them. First of all, before we come to the conclusions, we should consider the very wide terms of reference which were laid down in this case. In the four principal terms involved, it would be fair to say that the allegations referred to in the first and in the second are wholly disproved by the Report and I do not propose to say anything about them. The third one referred to
"any breaches of security arrangements which took place;"
The Report was, I would say, less reassuring on this than on the first and second terms. The fourth,
"any neglect of duty by persons directly responsible for Vassall's employment and conduct, and for his being treated as suitable far employment on secret work",
is the one on which criticism in this House has been mainly focussed. It is the section of the Report dealing with this aspect which I think is of most material concern to us in considering the future.

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Having read the Report twice, and having considered its implications very carefully, I would say that the general conclusion is that the Tribunal was broadly satisfied with what one might call the system. It did not say that the system worked perfectly, and it drew attention to a number of cases where it did not. But it drew the conclusion that the system was, on the whole, satisfactory and that when it failed, or just faltered this was attributable to human failure
Mr. Niall MacDermot: Can the hon. Gentleman quote one sentence from the Report which indicates that the Tribunal thought that the security system in the Admiralty or in Moscow was adequate at that time?
Sir R. Thompson: No. I am talking about the Report as a whole. I readily concede that one can pick out particular sentences criticising particular people and particular actions. But on the whole it is fair to say that the criticism is directed more at errors of judgment and appreciation in particular cases by particular people than at the arrangements as a whole. I will have more to say later if the hon. and learned Gentleman will bear with me.
Like practically every other hon. Member who has spoken today, I very much regret that the only person who has been singled out by name for blame in all this is a dead man. I make no apology for mentioning the matter again because his brother is a constituent of mine who came to see me, rightly distressed and concerned about this aspect of the Report.
All of us in this House find it very distasteful to levy criticism against a man who cannot reply, especially when we consider the wealth of evidence which those who were called and were able to defend themselves were able to deploy. I hope that Mr. Pennells's relatives will feel that although he was the only one singled out by name at the Tribunal, many of us do not consider that he was solely at fault.
Mr. Wigg: Twice the hon. Gentleman has said that Mr. Pennells is the only one mentioned by name. He cannot have read the Report. It is not true that Mr. Pennells is the only person mentioned
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by name. There are others, including some who are also dead.
Sir R. Thompson: I am basing myself on the conclusions at the end of the Report. The first of them refers to Mr. Pennells, and that is the one I have in mind. If the hon. Member for Dudley (Mr. Wigg) goes through those conclusions, he will not find anyone else mentioned by name in this critical manner.
One of the things which is particularly distasteful is that Mr. Pennells has not been able to defend himself, while other people in much higher positions, where there has been a doubt, have received the benefit of it. often after they have been able to defend themselves in cross-examination. There may be no way round this, but I am bound to say that it is something which to many of us makes the conclusions of the Report distasteful. This is no reflection on the competence of the Tribunal. It heard sworn evidence from a great number of people. One day perhaps that evidence will be published and we shall he able to form our own judgment on it. Nevertheless, if, as the Tribunal says, Mr. Pennells was
"…remiss and lacking in judgment…"
can we really be sure that the same should not De said of senior embassy officials in Moscow?
There are seventeen conclusions in the Summary of (Findings of the Report. Four of them offer some criticism of the existing arrangements or of the people who operated them. These are No. 1, No. 3, No. 7 and No. 11. No. 1 refers to Mr. Pennells and I shall not go over that again. No. 3 and No. 7, however, refer to certain procedures in the Moscow Embassy which were in force at the time Vassall was actually employed there. No. 11 refers to a failure in the positive vetting procedure, attributable to not making sufficient inquiry into the facts of Vassall's service while he was in Moscow. So, omitting No. 1, the remaining points of criticism all go back to what happened, and was not sufficiently appreciated, at the time when Vassall was serving in the Moscow Embassy.
Taken together certain things were happening in the Embassy which seem almost incredible. After all, Moscow is the centre of the Communist world. It is the place from which all the subversion

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of which we have heard during the debate emanates. It seems amazing that there should have been so many grounds for criticism of security procedures in the most sensitive place in the world, where one would have hoped that our drill was absolutely as perfect as it could be.
I touch briefly on these failures which have been noted by the Report. There was failure to check on the associations between the staff and local people I realise how difficult that is, but, considering all we know of the systematic and determined and consistant efforts of the Russians to corrupt people who are suspected of character weakness in one way or another, it seems odd that exceptional care should not have been taken, especially in Moscow, where they were all living in dispersed quarters, to try to see that in particular junior and inexperienced and recently arrived staff were not subjected to this kind of pressure.
It also seems astonishing to persist with the employment of Mikhailski. The Report says that this man was under some suspicion. That must have been generally known. One can see reasons for keeping him on. All staff had to be accepted through an official Russian agency and it might take months to get some one else if he were sacked. Indeed, one might never get someone else. Nevertheless, it cannot have been good for the security of the Embassy, or for the morale of the staff, to know that a man at any rate under some suspicion was still being kept on. Then there was the failure to follow up Miss Wynne's report. That really seems to have got completely lost in the long grass. Nobody really did nything about it.
Another thing I find difficult to understand is the absence at the material time of a full-time security officer based on Moscow in the Embassy. To be fair, I realise that this has now been remedied. But it seems extraordinary that at that time we were apparently relying on periodic visits from someone based on Warsaw and not permanently resident in the post.
Then there were the obvious doubts which Captain Bennett had about Vassall. According to the Report, Captain Bennett seems to have changed his mind about this man on a number of occasions. It is easy to believe that he could not quite
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make up his mind as to whether Vassall was a good security risk or not. He started by thinking him indolent, incompetent, and a bit of a nuisance. Then he formed a better impression. This was followed by third thoughts. One way or another, in reading this Report, one can find half a dozen occasions on which a contradictory view of Vassall was expressed. That can only add up to the fact that the doubt in Captain Bennett's mind was quite genuine.
It seems most astonishing that when the security vetting arrangements took place on Vassall's return from Moscow, someone who could have spoken very frankly about the man, who could have said something really material about him, who could have explained why there were doubts about his loyalty or competence, was not consulted. That is why it is a little hard to understand why Mr. Pennells, an honest, hard-working Admiralty official with a jolly good record—to which, I am glad to say, the Report makes reference—should incur criticism, while this less-defined but surely less defensible matter in the Embassy, with so many pointers ignored and so many steps not taken, should apparently be accepted as one of those things which, in the difficult life of the Moscow Embassy, must be accepted. In security matters like this, a suspected man such as Vassall should never get the benefit of the doubt. That may seem uncharitable, but when the country's security is at stake we should not hesitate.
The Press did not come out at all well in this affair. It was not the subject of inquiry, but it was the inspiration of it, and it has come out of it very badly. Again and again, we find that reports put over as fact proved on examination to be based entirely on hearsay, gossip and, in some cases, imagination. It would come as a very great shock to members of the public if that section of the Report from paragraph 222 to the end could be generally circulated and made available. It would surprise them very much to realise what fantastic stories were put about at this time, on what flimsy evidence, and with what damaging consequences.
This is not a light matter, but I sometimes think that those responsible far the conduct of the Tribunal did not go

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after the right people. The right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond) said he thought it the duty of the Press owners to speak up. I wish they had spoken up more in this case. I believe that those who ran the Tribunal should, instead of trying to get information out of the smaller fry—the reporters, with a deadline to meet, a story to pursue, and the rest of it—have said to the proprietors and managing editors, "You are the people who, if you wish, can release Mr. —" whatever his name was, "from any bond of secrecy under which he may feel himself to be held." I believe that we might have got a better Report if those concerned had gone after the big fish, and not the tiddlers in the pond.
I was very interested in what my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said about how the machinery might be made better for the future, and the Leader of the Opposition put forward some quite thoughtful addenda to what was originally said. I am sure that the House will wish to apply itself to this subject very seriously. The present arrangement is not satisfactory. The tribunal procedure, thank heavens, is not invoked very often, and we have not yet found a better method. But a better method I am sure we must find, and that is something to which Parliament as a whole should apply its mind.
6.34 p.m.
Mr. George Wigg: The hon. Member for Croydon, South (Sir R. Thompson) was not correct in saying that Mr. Pennells is the only person who is criticised in the Report. The security officers, Mr. Sherwood and Mr. James, are criticised for the way in which positive vetting was carried out. But perhaps the most wounding thing appears paragraph 185 of the Report, which deals with the case of Mr. Lewin. He is introduced into the Report for no obvious reason, but it is said of him that his relation with Vassal] was "a somewhat equivocal one". Then follow words that do not. I think, need have been used, except for a specific purpose. The paragraph adds that the relationship
"…apparently did not involve any homosexual practices."
The word "apparently" is about as condemnatory as it could be in relation to a civil servant who is still serving—
The Civil Lord of the Admiralty (Mr. C. Ian Orr-Ewing): The hon. Member said that those words referred to a civil servant who it still serving, but the man in question retired some years ago.
Mr. Wigg: Mr. Lewin's reputation in retirement is no less precious to him. Mr. Pennells is dead, Mr. Regan and Mr. James are dead. I have the greatest sympathy with the anxiety of Mr. Pennells' daughter to protect her father's honour when she thinks that it is attacked, but the time to have said these things is not the present. The voice of the hon. Member for Croydon, South might have had some effect if he had joined it with the voices of my hon. Friends the Members for Ebbw Vale (Mr. M. Foot) and for Coventry, East (Mr. Crossman) and myself when, on 14th November, we condemned this procedure for what it was—a shabby, charlatan, political trick by a Prime Minister who had been driven into a corner by gross errors of judgment.
I supported the Prime Minister when he set up the Romer and Radcliffe Committees in 1961, and I still supported his action when he appointed the Cunningham Committee. If he is responsible for security he is right to inform himself on the facts, and he can do it in any way he chooses. As the matter arose in the Services, he could have set up a court of inquiry, but at the time of the Vassall trial he set up the Cunningham Committee. He did that on 23rd October, 1962, but there was suspicion in the Admiralty by the middle of 1962 that another spy was at work and I suggest that had Sir Charles Cunningham and his colleagues got to work as soon as that suspicion arose even the spies now in the pipeline might have been caught a little earlier.
Let us go back still further to the committee set up after the Lonsdale case. Whatever may be true about the First Lord of the Admiralty on this issue—and I am prepared to admit that the noble Lord's honour is completely untarnished, and that it was perfectly proper for him not to know—that does not apply in the Lonsdale case. Mr. Houghton and Miss Gee did not take out just the odd document. At the weekend they moved out the whole central registry to the Soviet Embassy—the lot.

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What did the Prime Minister do? These people were arrested in January, 1961, but did the Prime Minister set a board of inquiry, or gather round him a group of civil servants immediately after the facts were known in order to establish the facts? No. He waited until the political heat was turned on, and then appointed the Romer Committee. But before the Romer Committee had reported, Blake was caught. The Prime Minister was then in a little difficulty—these committees breed like rabbits. He therefore set up a more eminent committee, the Radcliffe Committee, before the Romer Committee had reported, and the Radcliffe Committee produced its Report in April, 1962.
I want to remind the House of the background against which we are talking. This Conservative Government have been in power for twelve years, and they have spent, including this year's estimates, £18,400 million on defence. Security expenditure is about £8 million a year and, as my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition said this afternoon, there is another £4 million per annum for what, I understand, is called the "slush fund", which is drawn from by various Departments—that is, about £12 million a year.
Against the background of this expenditure, let us now ask why the Government have such a wide range of security classification. I have undergone the discipline of reading Mr. McNamara's report, presented to the House of Representatives on 30th January and covering United States defence expenditure of 51,000 million dollars over five years. Every Service and every weapon is examined. If any hon. Gentleman opposite wants to rouse the bosom of the Primrose League by referring to the mercenary attitude of the United States about Skybolt, well, Skybolt is examined in detail. He can get his facts right by reading Mr. McNamara. We have to compare that with the fiddling document produced by the Minister of Defence as an explanation of our defence policy at the present time.
Thus, the reason for the wide range of security classification is that, at all costs, the House of Commons and the British people must not know the truth about our defences—we are weak, we are powerless. If I use an expression that
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I have used before it is because it is one with which I am familiar. Under a Conservative Administration we will spend £18,400 million on defence—and we could not knock the skin off a rice pudding. It is a basic truth. Thus, we have tight security classification to protect facts which have awkward political implications.
The first thing to be done is to narrow the area of classification. That was one of the recommendations of the Radcliffe Report of April, 1962. Yet this afternoon the Prime Minister said not a word about security classification. The wider the security classification, the greater the risk of penetration. Thus, over the last decade we have had case after case of penetration of our vital secrets. Had the hon. Member for Croydon, South, read the Report with any care he would not only have dashed to the defence of Mr. Pennells—and I do not deprecate that—but would have found the facts with which to defend him.
When we read paragraph 159, which discusses the vital area of positive vetting, we find that the instructions that have to be obeyed are not Service or security instructions, but the instructions of the Treasury, and when Mr. Pennells was called upon in 1954 to examine the problem of six vacancies in naval attache's office he suggested that married men should be sent behind the Iron Curtain, not only because they would be more contented, but because the Foreign Office had said that the greatest risk of penetration came not only through black market operations, but from relations of men with women and women with men and from men with men. Mr. Pennell's suggestion was rejected for reasons of economy. For the same reason, there was no security officer at the Embassy in Moscow. For the same reason, when Mr. Vassall's turn came for positive vetting, he was not positively vetted until months later. Positive vetting is a very costly business. We never begrudge the money we vote for defence and we must see that it is spent wisely. But it is very short-sighted to economise falsely and without regard to the consequences.
We cannot run away from these problems. One thing that we must ask is why we have got ourselves in this jam. Again, it is primarily not only because we have a Tory Administration, but be-

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cause we think in Tory terms. Let us go back to the Burgess and Maclean incident. In 1955, the present Prime Minister, and I am one of his greatest admirers—not like hon. Members opposite, who admire him only in terms of what he can give them; I admire him when he is right and condemn him when he is wrong, and it is a matter of great regret to me that the causes of my congratulation daily grow less—was impeccable. He said, "You cannot have the credit without taking the blame, and Ministers must be responsible". In the same speech, in 1955, he claimed that positive vetting had been introduced in all Departments where it was necessary and the Government then set up a Committee of Privy Councillors to define future security policy.
Then, in 1956 came the report of the Privy Councillors' Committee. I warn hon. Members that whatever they do they must beware of Privy Councillors, especially when they have been out of office for any length of time. They become verbose and pompous, and they no longer believe in revolutionary ideas. If we want to see where the greatest harm has been done to our security service we shall see that it was in the findings of the Privy Councillors in March, 1956. They included two right hon. Gentlemen from this side of the House.
It is difficult to find in the whole of the pages of the English language bigger nonsense than the recommendation contained in paragraph 4:
"The Conference point out that, whereas once the main risk to be guarded against was espionage by foreign Powers carried out by professional agents, today the chief risks are presented by Communists and by other persons who, for one reason or other, are subjected to Communist influence".
That was clearly believed by the political innocents who place before their name "right honourable Gentleman". They believed this, and it was a doctrine which was acceptable to the thick heads on the Government side of the House. But what a recommendation to make!
I have here a copy of the security questionnaire which a civil servant has to answer. I am willing to lend copies of it to hon. Members. It consists of four pages, but almost two are involved in filling up questions 14 and 15—in filling up in exactly the same way whether one is a member of the Communist Party or the Fascist Party. It
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is subdivided in each case into five subheads. It is expected that any member of the Communist or Fascist Party likely to engage in espionage will fill that in truthfully. This is the way in which we work.
I have managed to get hold of a copy of the security investigation data for sensitive positions in the United States. When we come to this vital issue, one question is asked, "Are you now or have you ever been a member of the Communist Party or any Communist or Fascist organisation?" The man is asked for three references. We want two. We want information over a period of five years, and the person has to give his present address and character referees and to state his occupation.
In the American document he is asked to give all the schools that he has attended right back over all his life. He is asked to give particulars about his mother, his father, his brother and his sister, and he is asked to give not only the occupations in which he has been employed but the names of the persons who have been responsible for his supervision.
I am not arguing in favour one way or the other, but I remind the House that under paragraph XIV(2) of the Polaris sales agreement—and it is astounding that we have found this out by a side wind—similar positive vetting complexes are required as take place in the United States. We were not told this at the time of the Polaris agreement. Trade unionists in the House who are not greatly interested in defence were not told it. It reads:
"The Government of the United Kingdom will undertake such security measures as are necessary to afford classified articles, services, documents or information substantially the same degree of protection afforded by the Government of the United States in order to prevent unauthorised disclosure or compromise."
Clearly, if we are to have the Polaris agreement den, at some time or other, we must have a vetting complex here which is similar to that in the United States. I will leave that to sink in.
Mr. Emrys Hughes: I have not overlooked that point. This is why I shall make a speech on the Adjournment about it tomorrow.
Mr. Wigg: I am delighted to hear that, and I hope to be present either to interrupt or to support the hon. Member.

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I come back to Vassall. We read in the Report that Vassall was weak, and not intelligent. He was a snob, he was of good family, and he was a member of the Bath Club and had been a member of the Conservative Club. The last two facts were sufficient to get him through positive vetting. I will not go as far as my right hon. Friend, but I think that these were the decisive factors. They were brought out in the positive vetting section, where the officer was Mr. E. S. Sherwood. It was stated that he was a member of the Bath Club. We are told that Vassall was a practising homosexual from his youth and that he practised it while in Moscow. I am not thinking only of Soviet terms. He practised it among diplomatic circles in Moscow. This does not mean to say that it was in our Embassy.
Mr. Rees-Davies: There is no evidence whatever that any of the diplomatic colony were engaged in it. It was suggested that he engaged in this practice with those whom he met through the Russians.
Mr. Wigg: We have no evidence. We are told that he was a practising homosexual in his youth and that he probably practised it at the Admiralty and that he practised it in Moscow. These are facts. The only point I want to make is that he was certainly a homosexual since youth. if there had been a positive vetting in relation to the schools which he had attended, and if there had been an inquiry into his Service record, beyond a shadow of doubt some of the question marks here would have arisen. It is clear, if one reads between the lines, and particularly if one reads another section to which I do not want to refer again, that Vassall left Monmouth Grammar School rather suddenly in rather peculiar circumstances. When he came back to London he was employed as a temporary civil servant, and it is equally clear that he took up some old associations. There were many suggestions that these relations continued.
I am saying that it is utterly inconceivable that if positive vetting had been carried out with efficiency—I will not make too much of the Bath Club—Vassall would not have been discovered. I am not being wise after the event.
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After the Lansdale case I returned to the House and made a speech on the subject the same night. It was clear that Houghton and Gee were not the people for whom the antiquarian bookshop was being run in Ruislip. It was clear that this was a professional organisation and that professionals were at work. One would have thought that the Admiralty would have been on its toes, particularly after the Ramer Report. If the doctrine of Ministerial responsibility had been accepted, the First Lord would have gone and someone else with a fresh mind would have endeavoured to put the matter right.
We are facing a challenge. We can be told of this in rather extravagant terms, like the speeches of the Civil Lord, who, I am glad to say, is leaving the Government Front Bench and is returning to business, or it can be done in the more responsible way of the Prime Minister. The challenge affects us all, whether we are on the Liberal, Conservative or Labour benches, because if it goes wrong we all meet the consequences. For this reason my approach to defence has always been to try to find the largest area of agreement and to seek a common purpose, if possible.
This was where the Prime Minister went wrong. In the case of the Romer Committee and the Radcliffe Committee the Prime Minister consulted Mr. Gaitskell, who told us about it in the debate on 14th November last. The Prime Minister consulted Mr. Gaitskell about the terms of reference and about who should be on the Committee. He showed him the Report. Then, for some reason, the Prime Minister suddenly took fright and altered his line. He belatedly set up the Cunningham Committee and then, without a word to Hugh Gaitskell, he appointed the Tribunal under the Tribunals of Inquiry (Evidence) Act as if he had not been asked to do so by the Labour Party Front Bench.
I do not expect the Prime Minister to admit that he was wrong, but happily —this is a great strength of the Prime Minister—it appears that we are now back to the pre-Tribunal policy. He is consulting my right hon. Friend. Perhaps, in future, we may proceed on the basis of its being a national problem and not something which the Prime Minister should exploit for his personal advantage.

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Let us look at the problem which must have presented itself to the Prime Minister at that dramatic moment when the hon. Member for Nottingham, West (Mr. Tapsell) broke in and told him of this little dinner party at which it had been suggested that a Minister of the Crown was about to "do a Pontecorvo." If the Prime Minister, for one split second, believed that the hon. Member was anything but a tittle-tattle and half-witted he would have said, "My heavens. Here is a Minister who, only a few days ago, was a Service Minister, and you tell me that he is about to 'do a Pontecorvo'". Surely his bounden duty would have been then to impound his passport, as should have been done in the case of Burgess and Maclean, and to obtain from him an assurance to report his movements, or put him under surveillance until such time as the issue had been decided.
But, in fact, as my right hon. Friend and I have tried to point out, the Prime Minister decided to have a Tribunal to ascertain something the nature of which we are not very sure. The Prime Minister talked about charges. But there were no charges. One suggestion was that someone would "do a Pontecorvo." Clearly, the Prime Minister did not believe the nonsense of the hon. Member for Nottingham, West—not a word of it. Nor should he have done. He took it for what it was and said, "If this is the game, now is the time for a counter-attack." The Tribunal was the counter-attack. Some of my hon. Friends were very cross with us because we wanted not an exchange of platitudes when the Tribunal was set up, but a debate on the consequences and a discussion of the issues involved. The Tribunal was conceived in political expediency. Most of the Tribunals which had been held, almost without exception, had done someone some injustice. I remember the brilliant and moving speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale, when he talked about what had happened to Sir Alfred Butt. Somebody always suffers as a result of this procedure. We therefore said, "This is a political issue. If you raise a political issue, send it to a Select Committee".
The Prime Minister would not do that, and the Motion was put on the Order Paper in such a way that we could not even amend it except by a manuscript
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Amendment. It was all done hurriedly, as an expedient which had to be forced through quickly in order to attack my right hon. Friend the Member for Belper (Mr. G. Brawn), to discredit the Labour Party—because the Prime Minister was in increasing difficulties with his own party—and to attack the Press.
Not only am I interested in defence, but I undertook a discipline which, I think, was not undertaken by other hon. Members. I went to the Tribunal. What happened on the first day? On the first day of that Tribunal its character was altered completely by a brilliant speech and submission by Mr. Gerald Gardiner, who put it to the Tribunal that these were political terms of reference. Amongst the Tribunal's terms of reference were to inquire into
"any other allegations which have been or may be brought to their attention".
In other words, the Tribunal was required to dignify into an investigation status every piece of gossip that anyone cared to bring to its attention. Any anonymous letter had to be examined.
Mr. Gardiner pointed out that the Attorney-General had appeared in this situation as an actor on the political scene. He then turned up for the Tribunal and discharged his task honourably, leading the Tribunal; but how could he do the two jobs? Mr. Gerald Gardiner said that if it was to be a political Tribunal he would demand, on behalf of those he represented, to be heard.
At this point I pay tribute to the wisdom of Lord Radcliffe, and I defend the Report. It was a job which reflects great credit on three brilliant lawyers. I am not really competent to say a great deal on this subject, because I know virtually nothing about the law. But they ascertained the facts and I think that Lord Radcliffe is a very wise man. On the night of 21st March I said exactly that, and I say it again now. Thus the Tribunal, although it was concerned for wrong reasons, has done a job. It is, indeed, the English way of dealing with such matters. It often happens and we should be proud of it.
For here was something with a rather nasty overtone and then when it went to the Tribunal Lord Radcliffe immediately grasped the matter and saw the nonsense

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in it. He refused Mr. Gerald Gardiner's application and from then on there was only one victim left—the Press. But the Press has had it hot and strong and it should be realised—and I hope that Pressmen will note this—that however bad it reads in print, it sounds far worse to hear it.
When I buy a newspaper I do so in an endeavour to buy the opinions of the men who write in it and not what they have picked up from the earlier editions or the papers of the night before. But let us bear in mind that they are often forced into this situation by the actions of the Government. I mentioned earlier —it was a slip of the tongue, because I referred to today's issue—the Daily Mail of yesterday. In it were details of the Prime Minister's proposals about a spy tribunal. How did it get there? Did it come as a result of the presence of a Daily Mail reporter in Admiralty House or did the Prime Minister or one of his acolytes tell him? Exactly the same thing happened when the Romer Tribunal was set up.
It should be realised that this sort of thing puts an intolerable strain on other journalists who are not the recipients of leaks because they, too, have their living to earn and, tonight, I want to defend two journalists—Mr. Hoskins and Mr. Waller. I am not their public relations officer, but I want to come to their assistance. I do not think that Mr. Hoskins's story was any revelation. He was merely writing what any intelligent observer would have spotted at the Lonsdale Tribunal. But he, like Mr. Wailer, did a useful service in focussing attention on the facts.
I went to the Lonsdale trial and, as a result of my visit, forced a debate in the House. I was absolutely certain that there was someone else at work. I said to the Leader of my party when the Lonsdale case came up and when the Vassall case came up, "You can be certain that within six months there will be another one." Our security service lacks direction and at some points is an amateur organisation controlled to its vitals by the Treasury and run in terms of political expediency to meet the needs of the Government.
There were the rumours which spread in connection with the Secretary of State
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for War. I raised this matter in the House and I did it after much thought and consultation. But I take the responsibility for what I did. I did not ask anyone's permission. Nor did I make any allegations, but when one is the recipient of certain information one must consider what to do with it. If one goes to the Minister in question the chances are that one will be brushed off. So in my wisdom—for what it was worth—I came to the House and asked the Front Bench opposite either to deny or to investigate the rumours.
Obviously in these sort of matters we cannot know the whole truth because, as my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition said, the first requirement of the security services is secrecy. In some cases it might be dangerous to say anything at all. But with these rumours it was important that they should be denied or investigated. What was it all about? The personal conduct of a Minister—any Minister in the personal sense —is his responsibility which he shares with his colleagues. I have nothing to say about him, or about that. But when one deals with a case like this it is a different matter.
I have in mind the case of Commander Ivanov, the Soviet Assistant Naval Attaché, who came to this country and assiduously cultivated certain classes of the more diseased sections of our society, became a skilful bridge player within eighteen months and played bridge for money with some of the best players in London. I will not guarantee the amount, but it was costing him between £20 and £50 a week. He drove expensive cars, was expensively dressed and visited what are known as the "hot spots". I am relating what I have been told.
Ivanov visited places where people game for high stakes. It someone asks me to believe—and I take the trouble to verify my facts—that that officer is acting other than under instructions, I do not believe it. I did not believe it when I saw Mr. Lonsdale in the dock at the Old Bailey. He was the most English of characters. He behaved like an English officer. He had a high conception of duty and was "taking the rap". I believe that Ivanov was doing exactly the same thing.
It must be obvious to everyone that stories of this kind spread far beyond

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this country. They are carried in newspapers throughout the world and in many countries there is speculation on them. During the last Recess I went abroad and the first questions put to me upon leaving the plane were about these sort of stories. It is, therefore, in terms of the honour of this country as well as the security of Ministers—and the Prime Minister, of course, bears the real responsibility—that rumours and stories of this kind should be dealt with with alacrity. In the discharge of his public duty the Prime Minister must say, "I have gone into this and there is nothing in it" or, "There is something in it which clearly needs investigating."
We have a right to expect this from the right hon. Gentleman and, in return, the Government have the right to expect from us our support in what, after all, must he an extremely difficult task. As I have said, these matters raise a vital issue, the consequences of which affect us all. We should look at this whole question not only in terms of tittle-tattle or human reputationsalthough, as human beings, we must, I suppose, do that. We must realise that we are dealing with a long-term, grim battle which involves not only the security of this country, but- the whole concept of the Western way of life.
7.8 p.m.
Mr. Stephen Hastings: The hon. Member for Dudley (Mr. Wigg) was not the first to allude to what has been described as the "amateurish nature" of our security organisation. I am surprised that hon. Members have the effrontery to say that in the light of the history of this case and many cases that have gone before it.
To catch a spy is a triumph. To be surrounded by the possibility in Government Departments of numbers of spies without knowing where they are is a failure from the point of view of the security services. The debate so far has smacked too much of wisdom after the event, so to speak. What were trivial incidents have been magnified and made to appear glaringly significant both in our Embassy in Moscow and in this country.
It has emerged that however good our physical security may be—that is, the security of documents or the personal
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security of the people who work with secret information—we shall always be vulnerable to Russian attack. There is the possibility—this has been alluded to; I think that my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister referred to it in his opening remarks—of having a security system analogous to that employed by the Russians, but it is well to consider what that would involve. The procedure is, I think, well known.
It involves on the security side alone a vast apparatus functioning in all their missions and embassies abroad, and in their Departments of State in Moscow, by which every public servant is spied upon by his neighbour and in which nobody knows who is and who is not an informer. I should have thought that any hon. Member who has dealt with and met Russians officially abroad or in this country has at some time or another noticed the somewhat surly suspicion there is between them when there are several together. I do not believe that the Russians are an unfriendly race. I believe that this stems from nothing less than the functioning of the apparatus which I have tried to describe.
Is this really the sort of system which we could ever contemplate having here? Of course it is not. Even there it fails. It is not so very long ago since the Petrov case and Khoklov who defected in Berlin, straight from the Soviet assasination school outside Moscow. Even if we employ these rigorous security controls, it does not in any way produce the final answer and is quite impossible to operate, and always has been, in a free State.
The truth surely is that there is a strict limit to the level of security which we can apply in a free society, and to go beyond it is to place liberty itself in danger. This seems to me to be the proposition which lies behind this debate in so far as it concerns security. One more remark in that connection which I should like to make, as an ex-official abroad, is t hat the more rigorous security becomes the more it conflicts with efficiency. It makes everything slow up and everything more irritating and difficult. One must, of course, get over this. Security is paramount, but there is a point of balance here as well which we should bear in mind.
To return to Lord Radcliffe's findings, one point which naturally has come up

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on more than one occasion, and which I think the right hon. Member for Basset-law (Mr. Bellenger) in particular talked about, was that it should not have been the case that the only person on whom blame was clearly placed should be a dead man. I have read the Report several times and it seems to me that it is objective and sensible. There was reason in this reference to Mr. Pennells, and it was qualified, as the right hon. Member for Bassetlaw said, by remarks about the excellence of his career, aside from this misjudgment.
The point that they were trying to make, surely, is that there have been a number of instructions to the Admiralty and comparable Service Departments to ensure that people going to these posts understand the dangers. The way in which the brief is put over is what matters. It is not enough to read it out or to treat it as a matter of routine. Surely what we must do is to try to understand the atmosphere of suspicion which surrounds those who serve us abroad in these embassies. It is not something which is immediately evident from the Report of the Tribunal or from newspapers. It is not anything that I can describe. It is an unpleasant thing to live with, and truly to brief and prepare somebody for a post of this nature is not a matter to be taken lightly. Leading on from that, there was surely ample reason for Captain Bennett or his successor, or anybody in the Moscow Embassy, to accept that the briefing had been done and the instructions carried out. A priori, therefore, there was every reason to think that Vassall was an acceptable person for a post of this kind.
The question of Mikhailski, which is vital to the whole case, has been mentioned once or twice in the debate. My hon. Friend the Member for Croydon, South (Sir R. Thompson) said that he could not understand how Mikhailski was retained for so long. It is important to understand this. Of course, Mikhailski seemed to be a suspicious character, but anybody in the position of being locally employed anywhere behind the Iron Curtain is a suspicious character. The question of how one comes to the point and says, "This is the man, he must go", is a different matter. The Report says that he was under suspicion but it does
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not recount how many others there were on whom suspicion was laid. Also, there is the extraordinary difficulty of managing in a country where the language is difficult and known perhaps only to a few members of the staff, despite the best efforts. If the Russians want to make life difficult if not nearly impossible for our Embassy in Moscow they can do it. This is a factor in the situation concerning locally employed people which we should remember.
As to the limitations of positive vetting, I think that the hon. Member for Dudley has a point. It is something which emerges from the Report. It is not glossed over at all. The Report says that, within the limitations, the Tribunal is satisfied that the procedure was followed, alhough there was an error of judgment and the procedure could have been taken further. I am inclined to agree. This is an occasion where the system of positive vetting might well be reviewed with a view to tightening it up.
In referring to other points which emerge from the Report, I go back to the opening speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition who cited certain paragraphs from it as evidence of how loose the arrangements were in the matter of documental security. The right hon. Gentleman cited paragraph 198. If that paragraph is read out of context and alone, the situation appears to be as the right hon. Gentleman indicated, but if one goes on to read paragraph 199, which is not so very far, one finds this:
"Early in 1962, with the improved concentration on security questions that was being felt in the Admiralty, steps were taken in Military Branch to remedy the situation and considerable progress had been made by the time Vassall came under suspicion. Further improvements had then to be halted lest they should alarm but they have now been completed."
This is one of several examples. I could quote others, such as the question of a security officer in Moscow. There was no such officer in Moscow when Vassall's spy career began. There is now, as a result, I think, of the Romer Report and earlier investigations.
In the last paragraph of the Radcliffe Report there is a reference to the reaction of the First Lard with a view to tightening arrangements generally in the Admiralty. Right through the Report it

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is quite plain that, as a result of what has gone on before, these arrangements have been and are being tightened. There are limits to doing this, but this process has been going on.
Now another point which applies to what the hon. Member for Dudley was getting at. I think that the hon. Member is confused when he talks about security and the security service. The hon. Member was talking about the protection of secret documents. Incidentally, in my view there are few secrets that count. The hon. Member was also speaking of people who are not members of the security service but who simply, on instructions, try to protect these documents and prevent penetration by the enemy. This is one form of security, but it does not constitute the security service.
There is one sentence in the Report, and one sentence only, on this subject which explains a great deal but the details of which, as the right hon. Member for Bassetlaw spotted, are not there and are never likely to come out, and it is quite right that they should not come out.
On page 18 the Tribunal refers to
"a laborious and very capable piece of counter-espionage"
—and there the story ends. That is all that Ls said about the way in which Vassal] was caught, but it does not need any feat of imagination by the House to imagine the extraordinary amount of effort, persistence and, probably, brilliant analysis that lies behind that sentence. This is not security in the terms in which it has been discussed generally in the debate, and certainly not in the terms referred to by the hon. Member for Dudley.
Mr. R. T. Paget: I do not follow what the hon. Member is saying. Since at any time all that was necessary was to have a look in Vassall's flat, why did it require such great genius to discover that he was a spy?
Mr. Hastings: I do not set myself up as an expert in these matters, but if the hon. and learned Member thinks that we can bowl out spies as deeply embedded as Vassall simply by having a peep into his flat, he has a lot to learn.
Mr. Paget: He had a camera and all the other stuff in his flat. That is the extraordinary thing.
Mr. Hastings: Perhaps he had had them there for some months after our security officers knew what he was doing. That is neither here nor there. The identification of the man is a separate matter, covered by one sentence in the Report. It is not the aspect of security that was discussed by the hon. Member for Dudley.
Mr. Wigg: When I was discussing declassification I was doing so as hurriedly as I could. I was talking about certain parts of the Radcliffe Report of April, 1956. That Report contained a whole section about the need for declassification, and it properly dealt with the difficulties involved. But Lord Radcliffe and those with him reached the conclusion that nothing could be done. If nothing could be done in a case where a man is a traitor, why not accept it?
Mr. Hastings: There is a great deal that we can do. We are on two different points here. There is perhaps something to be done about the other aspect.
Much has been said about the journalistic aspect—about the plight of the journalists, and whether or not the Press has come well out of this investigation. I do not wish to add to that, beyond offering my sincere congratulations to my hon. Friend the Member for Norfolk, Central (Mr. Ian Gilmour) on the best analysis I have yet heard of the Press angle. His speech was much enjoyed by the House. It was a delight to me and, I am sure, to all hon. Members on this side of the House when my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Hill-head (Mr. Galbraith) and my noble Friend, the First Lord, were vindicated by the Report, and I do not wish to make a speech on the Tribunal, or upon the result of the case, without saying as much.
I now urn to what lies behind all this. What have we been doing? We have been discussing the merits or demerits of the way in which we handled the case of a single Russian spy. We have not yet considered the threat which for years has been presented to us by the Russians and the immense difficulty of coping with it. For instance, it is a matter worthy of comment that—if my figures are correct—whereas we have 106 people working in Moscow, counting all

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British officials, in the Russian Embassy in London and in the Russian trade delegation, which is closely connected with it, there are no less than 218 Russians. Is it pertinent to ask what they are all doing? Are all these persons really necessary? If we study the figures of Russian employees throughout the continent of Africa we find some pretty strange facts as well. There may be nothing we can do about it, but we should be aware of it.
Everybody who has read anything on this subject knows the long and evil category of organisations, bearing strange initials, which conduct these activities on behalf of the Soviet Union—the O.G.P.U., the N.K.V.D., the M.V.D., the M.G.B., and now the ubiquitous K.G.B., to say nothing of the G.R.U., which spies on behalf of the Red Army. I hope that hon. Members will not ask me what these initials stand for; they are unpronounceable in any case. But they represent a pretty formidable category.
We know that the Russian State has always been addicted to these forms of activity, and we also know only too well that subversion is part and parcel of the Communist doctrine and faith. Let it be said and remembered: it never alters. But behind this, and behind what my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said, when he expressed the opinion that we should see more of these cases—as I have no doubt we shall—lies the central calculation that the Russians have made. They now realise that because of the Western deterrent they will never gain their end by hot war, as it came to be called a year or two ago. This is no longer a practical possibility. So they have simply switched weapons. This makes all talk of defence a little difficult and confused today, as I am sure the hon. Member for Dudley will agree.
Russia's main weapon today is probably subversion, and she is stepping it up. That fact makes this debate of great importance. I am sure that this calculation has been made. The methods of the Russians are ruthless. It might not be out of place to refer to the fact that the sympathies of many of us today may be with an unfortunate Englishman who is about to stand trial—if we may call it that—in Moscow. This man has spent six months there without access
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to anybody in the Embassy, and without a charge of any kind being made.
I ask one question on this, without making any comment upon it. The first time that I knew that we were going to have this debate was when business was announced last Thursday. On the next day the announcement was made that this trial in Moscow was to go on at the same time. This unfortunate man has languished in gaol for six months, after having been abducted from another so-called independent country. He has been held for six months without any charge being made against him and then, on the day after it is announced that we are to have this debate, it is announced from Russia that he is to be tried. I leave the matter there.
I think that we have been engaged in too much introspective thought, and that we have not had quite enough understanding of the size of the problem—and certainly not enough appreciation of the incredible job that must have been done, and is doubtless still being done, by our security services, to have put so many clever men in the dock. They are not all small spies like Vassall.
Comparisons have been made with the American system. If I were in charge of the Federal Bureau of Investigation and looked at the British record in this connection, I would not feel too happy. It is ridiculously naive to imagine that this country and America are not riddled with red spy networks. The free world is open to this sort of thing. In a sense, the West is defenceless against it. In those circumstances, when we catch a spy we have something to be glad of, and something for which we should be grateful to our security services.
In future those who have engaged in what might be described as muck-raking —and much of this has come from the benches opposite, as well as from Fleet Street—might usefully devote the same zeal to considering the threat and to thinking about our enemies, as they have to persecuting honourable men.
7.30 p.m.
Mr. R. H. S. Crossman: I am sorry about the last few minutes of the speech of the hon. Member for Mid-Bedfordshire (Mr. Hastings). I thought that the beginning of his speech was interesting and I should like to com-

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ment on it later. He posed two choices, as the Prime Minister had done previously. He said that we had our freedom and that we wanted to have security compatible with that freedom, and that the alternative to the present system would be to adopt the Russian system.
That is the purest nonsense. It is quite a false dilemma and I can show that it is quite simply. No other Western country has a record of Russian espionage success equal to our own. If what the hon. Member said were true, if the only alternative to accepting the Government's lax attitude to security were to accept totalitarianism, it would be true that America and France and every other Western country would have had a sensational series of spy disasters. The fact is, and this is at least more hopeful, that only in this country in the last ten years has this particular susceptibility to Russian success been demonstrated.
Sir Kenneth Pickthorn: Has the hon. Member noticed—
Hon. Members: Sit down.
Mr. Crossman: I shall sit down when I have concluded my sentence. I am sure that the hon. Member wants to make a pertinent observation. The point I was making is that there is evidence that the Russians have had five major successes here in the last six years, and I doubt whether there is any other Western country in which that evidence exists.
Sir K. Piekthorn: Has the hon. Member noticed that a few days ago Mr. Alan Dulles said that he remembered a score of Vassall cases?
Mr. Crossman: Of course I noticed that Mr. Alan Dulles said that. I am saying that since 1956, since the Burgess-Maclean case, we have had a series of these disasters, one in the Foreign Office and no fewer than four in the Admiralty. To say that the only alternative to accepting that is to accept totalitarianism is a defeatism which no one on this side of the House is prepared to accept without further evidence.
I turn now to the major theme which I wish to discuss—the Prime Minister's contribution to this debate. It was remarkable. It was in marked contrast with what he said last time. I remind the House of what the Prime Minister told us that the Tribunal was to do. This
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was in the debate setting up the Tribunal, and he began by saying:
"…I became aware that there was building up, both in the Press and the House…a dark cloud of suspicion and innuendo…Indeed, looking back I now see what right hon. Gentlemen had in mind when they started this whispering campaign…"
The attack was primarily on the Opposition who were accused of starting a whispering campaign. The right hon. Gentleman went on to say:
"The public confidence must be restored, either by the exposure of guilt or by public proof that those who pose as the protectors of the public have themselves been guilty of trying to destroy private reputations from motives either of spite or gain."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 14th November, 1962; Vol. 667. c. 393–400.]
The Prime Minister was saying that the Tribunal's job was to prove that the Opposition were guilty of trying to destroy private reputations from motives either of spite or of gain, and that if it could not prove that the Opposition were guilty, it was to prove that the Press was guilty. Those were the two sets of people about whom these demonstrations were to take place. I need not waste time saying anything about what the Tribunal said about the Opposition. My hon. Friend the Member for Dudley (Mr. Wigg) has explained how this was blown up and exploded on the first day of the Tribunal by Mr. Gardiner.
I do not defend everything that the Press did. Indeed, I believe that it came out extremely badly, but consistent news suppression meant that unless there had been Press agitation, we would not have had the Vassall Tribunal. Evidently, without Press agitation, which unfortunately contained these allegations, the Government are not prepared to reveal the facts. It is clear that, without the attacks, which were made without Press agitation, the Government would not have taken action about security.
If there had been a record on behalf of the Government to show that when they found a desperate security situation they manfully took us into their confidence, so far as they could, and then acted, there would not have been this Press agitation. Although I do not defend the Press, without the Press attacks, which were made without knowledge, we would not have got even the facts which we have been given.

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I should now like to quote from the Tribunal's reply to the Prime Minister's demand that the Press should be pilloried. It said:
"We think it desirable to make plain that at no time have we regarded it as part of our function to express judgments as to whether this or that newspaper ought or ought not to have published any particular statement…".
The next statement is important:
"Newspapers have their own methods of operation and they cannot always be expected to proceed on the kind of factual basis that justifies an assertion before a court of law or a tribunal of inquiry."
What the Tribunal was saying was that, faced with spy sensations and the Government's refusal to give information, the Press could not always make statements which could be justified before a court of law. It was extremely shrewd and sensible of the Tribunal to say to the Prime Minister, "We will not take part in your plan; we will report the facts and we will let the House of Commons decide whether the Opposition was guilty, and whether the Press was guilty".
The Opposition have already been cleared, because nobody has dared to make the charges this time. Last time, we had speech after speech from hon. Members opposite denouncing the Opposition for whipping up agitation. What has been remarkable on this occasion has been the Prime Minister's attitude and his most emollient references to the Press. Indeed, his appeasement of the Press is a remarkable tribute to its political importance as an election approaches. The Prime Minister discovered that it was not popular with Tory Party headquarters to antagonise every newspaper in the country. I watched that wooing back of the mistress. It was delicately done, but it rather took the edge off the right hon. Gentleman's speech, for it showed either that he was not sincere last time, or that he was not very consistent.
The stage was set for the debate, but the Prime Minister did not want this debate when he set up the Tribunal. The Prime Minister wanted a debate after Lord Radcliffe and his colleagues had shown how my right hon. Friend the Member for Belper (Mr. G. Brown) had been wicked and how the Press had been
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wicked, a debate in which the House of Commons would go on, as he thought, to take what measures were necessary against the criminals. But he had to have a debate instead in which he covered up security disasters which were revealed by the Report and he had to be extremely polite to the Press. We move with the times, and we know what the Prime Minister does.
I turn to the problems revealed by the Report—
Mr. Rees-Davies: Before the hon. Gentleman does that, he should deal with the statement by Lord Radcliffe about the right hon. Member for Belper (Mr. G. Brown) on page 71, paragraph 236, where after the right hon. Gentleman had spoken of responsibility going
"far beyond the ordinary business of a Minister…"
Lord Radcliffe said that the correspondence was wholly innocuous. He might then take the trouble to read paragraph 14 on page 4 where Lord Radcliffe said:
"…it was our duty to make up our minds whether…we agreed with the comment or would ourselves support the validity of the inference."
in fourteen cases—[Interruption.]—Take your punishment. In fourteen cases of eight newspapers—
Mr. Crossman rose—
Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Sir William Anstruther-Gray): Mr. Crossman.
Mr. Crossman: Having allowed the hon. Member for the Isle of Thanet (Mr. Rees-Davies) to make his speech as an intervention in mine, I return to my own.
I come to what the Tribunal has achieved. It did not achieve what the Prime Minister wanted. I was interested in the Prime Minister's account of what he wanted if for. I think that we would agree with me that this is not a very good way of investigating security. I do not think that members of such a Tribunal are terribly good about security. Judges are perhaps not the best of people to plunge into that kind of world. According to the Prime Minister, the main point of the Tribunal was to clear innocent Ministers. This the Tribunal did, but I must point out that when our tribunals clear one or two innocent people, they invariably damn others.

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My hon. Friend the Member for Dudley mentioned the paragraph of the Report to which I am now referring. I must mention it again because it is important that we see what happens with tribunals of this sort, even when people like Lord Radcliffe claim to have taken the very greatest care. Paragraph 185 refers to the headmaster of Monmouth School, Mr. Lewin. The paragraph says:
"At that time Mr. Lewin's knowledge of Vassall, who was not a senior pupil, was slight; but Vassall sought him out at the War Office where he was serving and over the next five years there were occasional random meetings, almost wholly, we think, on Vassall's initiative. The relationship was a somewhat equivocal one, although it apparently did not involve any homosexual practices."
For a report which was not to damage anyone, that is pretty hot. It would have been criminal libel if it had been said anywhere else. Every one of these con- founded tribunals destroys some perfectly innocent, decent pepole.
I have to record it again because I do not want us to go away not seeing that we have to study the tribunal procedure. In the course of clearing the first Lord of the Admiralty and the hon. Member for Glasgow, Hillhead (Mr. Galbraith) it has simultaneously, if almost by chance, crushed one man. I know nothing about this man and for all I know he ought to be crushed, but let it be done where he has the possibility of defending himself. Nothing has been done for him at all, and a man's reputation has been killed in the course of clearing the reputation of others.
We have to consider whether this is the best machinery. I was extremely glad of the remarks of the Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition. If the suggestion of the Leader of the Opposition were adopted and we had a Select Committee, we could consider whether this was the right way of dealing with these matters. The Select Committee would report in due time how to improve our tribunal procedure, particularly when we are using tribunals in connection with the reputation of hon. Members.
I quite see the need for inquiries of this kind. I put up the suggestion for a Select Committee at our last debate, but since then I have read the admirable book by Francis Donaldson on the
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Marconi Committee. Anybody who has read that book and the book on the Jameson Raid will appreciate how difficult it, is for a Select Committee on a matter involving high political emotion to produce a good judicial account. I accept that we cannot go back to the Select Committee procedure, but we have to fins some form of semi-judicial procedure.
It is impossible to suggest that what we now have is the best procedure that we can get. We ought not to be content with machinery which has never failed to do a major injustice on each of the fifteen occasions on which we have used it.
I come now to the two journalists. I entirely agree with those who say that there is no principle of the freedom of the Press involved. It does not matter that they were journalists. It does not matter which of these witnesses refuse to answer a series of questions in an inquiry to defend the reputation of political persons. But when a witness in such a case is difficult, it should not be left to the High Court to gaol him for contempt of court.
If a tribunal of investigation which we set up in our interests—and we set it up because some of us were affected—gets into difficulties with a witness, the inquiry should report back to the House and the House should decide what to do. We must take the responsibility for gaoling the witness and not leave it to the High Court. This would require a change of the law, of course, because it is quite clear that as the tribunal machinery is now operated, the court was quite correct, and the journalists were in contempt of court. There was no question but of the judicial correctness of the decision and we would therefore have to have a different kind of tribunal if we were to take the responsibility.
Hon. Members will remember that the editor of the Spectator was one of the witnesses in the Marconi case and firmly refused to reveal his sources. That was before a Select Committee which then reported back to the House of Commons. The House of Commons at the time in its wisdom did not condemn and gaol him. It would not have dared to do so. I rather fancy that if the House had had to make its own decision about whether to gaol Foster and

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Mulholland for six months, the decision would not have been taken so easily. It is our responsibility if it is our reputations which are being cleared and not that of the courts. First, we must not kill the reputations of other people and, secondly, we must not leave to the High Court the odium of imprisoning journalists or other witnesses who have been difficult, and in this case I do not believe that the final report would have been substantially different if the sources suppressed by these two men had been revealed.
That is all I wanted to say about the form of the Tribunal. I shall spend the rest of my time on the security problem. Here I differ from other hon. Members because I do not think that this is a very competent Report. I shall frankly say why. I lived four years of my life under security conditions. These people were eminent judges. One of the troubles about judges—my father was a judge—is that they have a respect for evidence. They say they cannot make up their minds until they have the evidence. But the essence of security is to make up one's mind without the evidence, because if one waits for the evidence it is too late. The point is that lawyers, because of their great regard for evidence, are not necessarily the right people to form opinions about spies and about the character of a spy.
I will illustrate that again with the case of Mr. Lewin. Take a typical instance from this Report which appears in paragraph 185. This is typical of the judges. They came to the conclusion that there was evidence that the Press was lying in saying that Mr. Lewin sponsored Vassall. In strict legal terms they are correct. He was not actually sponsoring him. What are the facts? The facts are that first the headmaster, according to the Report, gave him an incredibly good recommendation to the Admiralty although he had left school five years before. That is myserious. The headmaster of 1943 who knew him as a junior member of the school was in the Admiralty at the same time and they decided together not to meet. We have to believe both of them that this is true, by the way.
These judges are such nice men. I should like to point out one or two interesting passages on Lord Radcliffe's
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view of Vassall. On page 12 of the Report Lord Radcliffe says:
"There is only one other point to notice in this general review of the Moscow period and that is to say what it was that Vassall did for the Russians in the way of providing information. Here we have to follow Vassall's own account as we have obtained it in examination of him, It is impossible to crosscheck it by outside evidence, but we have taken his account as trustworthy, both because he gave it to us in a convincing manner…"'
In what other way would an intrepid spy give such an account except in a convincing manner? I will read another passage in order to indicate the curious relationship with Vassall. On page 71 we have a nice passage:
"We received certain explanations…about the occasions and circumstances of this correspondence. They left us with the general impression that Mr. Galbraith was a kindly and considerate head of his office who liked to encourage some personal relations with those who served him as his staff, and that "—
now listen to this—
"Vassall not only was a somewhat insinuating young man who liked to develop any social contacts which came his way but had also formed a genuine admiration and attachment to Mr. Galbraith…"
These words, "genuine admiration and attachment" are applied to a highly professional spy and indicate a very curious attitude.
At this point I am slightly impressed by the views of someone who knows more about spies than I do—Miss Rebecca West. She listened to the Tribunal and formed the opinion that it was quite wrong to think of Vassall as a weak and feeble little man. For seven years he had been doing something which was pretty tough to do, and he knew what he was doing.
I am not at all convinced that these people appreciated the security situation. Though they revealed fascinating information their conclusion is not very sound. Everyone who has studied the matter impartially has come to the same conclusion, that the conclusion of the Tribunal bore no relation to the evidence in the Report, not because the Tribunal was dishonest but its members were too nice to see what they had revealed. And what they revealed in this Report is an almost desperately serious security situation.
When we consider that in the year 1963, the vetting done now bears no relation to the vetting we did throughout

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World War II. Those of us who worked in security organisations know what vetting took place. We did it ourselves. There was a serious effort made to find out then, and if I am told, "You cannot do this in peace time, it is impossible in peace time to have the kind of security we had in war time", I ask, quite seriously, "Why is it impossible that a very limited number of people should be required to deal with these things? Why should not they have imposed upon them rigorous security requirements whether in war or in peace time?"
I wish to say two things about security. One has been said before but it needs to be said time after time. We cannot have security if we have confidential information classified as secret information and secret information classified as top secret, and so on. We must de-classify and have only genuine secrets kept secret. Secondly, the number of people required to deal with these things must be reduced to the minimum. I know that that means that some important people will have to take rather more trouble. They may even have to take a document and lock it up themselves instead of leaving it for someone else—like Mr. Vassall—to do it for them. They may have to do menial things themselves in order to reduce risks. This is what we had to do in war time and we were cashiered or court-martialled if we did not do it.
It is totally unrealistic to say that in peace time we cannot do this—with the one proviso that we should cut down secret information to what is genuinely secret and cut to the absolute minimum the number of people who have access to it. Thirdly, we must impose security regulations on politicians. That is, perhaps, most important. In war time security regulations were imposed on politicians. They did not get the secrets if they were found to be insecure. I have no confidence that members of the Government have had security regulations imposed upon them at all, and I am certain that the security regulations on top civil servants are lax. There has been laxity in relation to the politicians and laxity in relation to the heads of the Civil Service.
I am not being wise after the Admiralty event. In 1955 we had a debate on the Burgess and Maclean scandal. The Prime Minister was then Foreign Secretary and
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he and I spoke in that debate. We had an excellent debate and some of us pointed out that the really serious fact was laxity at the top in the Foreign Office. It was not only on security grounds that Burgess and Maclean, or Blake or Vassall, should not have been employed. It was on the grounds that they were not worthy to be trusted by anybody at all, quite apart from security, except for their membership of clubs—except for the "old school tie network."
Both political parties were guilty in the case of Burgess and Maclean. We know that the decision to make Burgess a full member of the Foreign Service was taken under a Labour Government. There has been criticism about that and we know about it. It was an outrage to make Burgess a permanent member of the Foreign Service. Nobody who knew his character should have employed him in any responsible work. No one should have employed Maclean after his behaviour in Cairo.
The case of Blake is rather different. He was a man who by all security rules was unemployable. Men who have been emotionally or personally tied up with a resistance movement, and are potentially open to pressures, cannot be put in charge of any sound organisation. These three men were all allowed in. Why?—"Well, old boy, you know it is different with him, or with his wife…" and in Britain this is the approach of the Government to security —this nice social cosiness of the oligarchy. The oligarchy is civil, old-fashioned and weak—
Mr. Wigg: No, it is not.
Mr.Crossman: Members of the oligarchy are let down time after time. I am glad that the Leader of the Opposition singled out one point in his attack on this issue. After the Burgess and Maclean incident it might have been dangerous for a back-bench Member to do that because there was only one incident. But since then we have had three other occasions, all of them of this curious type, where one can look at the man and say, after the event, "You could not possibly have given him a job". Yet he got it. The best security organisation in the world—
Mr. Wigg: What about the Lonsdale case?
Mr. Crossman: I am sorry. There were four occasions. I was leaving out Commander Crabbe.
The trouble is that it does not matter what security regulations are made for documents if a Minister has the "old-boy" attitude. If exceptions are made for him and for him, the Russians will get through every time and so will any professional organisation. But, for heaven's sake, do let us get rid of the idea that the Russians have some kind of magic. So far as I can see, what the Russians have been doing is what the British have done regularly for the last hundred years at every opportunity. There is nothing original about it. Do not let us get the idea that the Russians are unique. It is not they who are unique—we are unique. We are uniquely bad we are uniquely easy-going; we are uniquely open to corruption in these ways which in a modern world are extremely expensive. I think that this debate will have done some good if it has brought that home to the Government.
What appalled me was the Prime Minister's oligarchic good humour. In effect, the right hon. Gentleman said "Well…we must not go too far…it is one of these things…" That was shameful, and the Leader of the House knows it, and back-bench Members of Parliament who care about security know it. This is snot a party matter at all. This is something which we have to stamp on whatever party is in power. Therefore, I say that this debate could be useful only on one condition, and that is that it refutes the atmosphere and the attitude of the Prime Minister in his speech introducing the debate, that we get something more realistic from the Leader of the House, and that we face the fact that a ghastly series of errors has been committed.
I am not asking that people be sacked, but I must comment on ministerial responsibility. We have two men, the First Lord and the Prime Minister. The Prime Minister is in charge of security, counter-intelligence and the rest of it, and one is in charge of the Ministry. There have been five major spy scandals. The Prime Minister says, "I cannot sack poor old Carrington". I was told in the debate two years ago, when the first scandal
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occurred, that he was "new to the job." Now he has got used to the job, and so he must be kept there in case there are more spies to be caught. Then, let us keep Carrington and let us get rid of the man in charge of security. If the Prime Minister shields the First Lord and then does nothing about it himself; if he takes the responsibility and he is in charge, and if he himself is shown totally incapable of facing the problem, this House must draw its own conclusions.
7.59 p.m.
Commander Anthony Courtney: I followed the hon. Member for Coventry, East (Mr. Crossman) with more than usual interest and attention because he said much better many things which I should have said had he not said them before me.
This is to me a shameful and sad occasion, because we are investigating the shortcomings of two great Departments of State and, I hope, the Ministerial responsibility which lies at the head of them after a series of appalling security cases. I mention King, Burgess, Maclean, Houghton and Blake. I cannot help coming to the conclusion from the Vassal) Tribunal's Report that little credit—in fact, may I be more positive and say discredit—attaches to the great majority of men and women who handled these matters in the Admiralty, in the Foreign Office and, more particularly, in the Embassy in Moscow at every stage of this lamentable affair, with honourable exceptions.
Miss Wynne, to whom reference has been made, may now be serving in a very hot climate far from this House, but she is deserving of promotion on the spot for what she did so public-spiritedly on that day in Moscow. Even more deserving of mention is, perhaps, the unnamed official in the Embassy in Moscow who watched and reported on Mikhailski for the whole of 1955 without having any practical notice taken of his public-spirited efforts. May I, without going out of order, mention the Chief Inspector of the Dorsetshire Constabulary, whose nous and common sense principally led to the investigations which culminated in the arrest of Houghton and Lonsdale.
We have had an appalling case of treachery to the State resulting in grave damage to the country's security, so

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grave that this House has no conception of the full extent of the information which has been passed to our enemies during all the years that Vassall was operating, even if the Admiralty and the Government realise it. I do not follow the hon. Member for Coventry, East in his polemics and party political points about the Press and its relations with this House. I wish to concentrate on what I believe to be the all-important nub of this debate, namely, the security aspect, principally in Moscow. I wish to concentrate on the responsibility of the two great Departments of State, the Admiralty and the Foreign Office.
Naturally, as has been said by my hon. Friend the Member for Mid-Bedfordshire (Mr. Hastings), all of us in this House are very glad that individual Ministers who were smeared in the course of the earlier allegations have been completely cleared. All the cases to which I have referred were intimately concerned with the Foreign Service as a whole. Two of them only—and here I venture to correct the hon. Member for Coventry, East—were specifically concerned with the Admiralty in the context which we are discussing.
Why should the Admiralty be the target of Soviet intelligence? Why is it that at the only two exposed points where the Admiralty is represented abroad, Moscow and Warsaw, we have had in five years a traitor in each? Many times—I hope that I will not be out of order in bringing this up—I have drawn the House's attention to the grave implications of the rise of Soviet sea power. Is it not natural and menacing that the great effort of the G.R.U. should be directed towards the maritime services of this country?
The right hon. Member for Bassetlaw (Mr. Bellenger) was puzzled at a seeming connection between the Lonsdale and Vassall cases and wondered whether there was some link between them. Surely the explanation is that one of the two Russian intelligence services was concerned with both. I refer to the G.R.U., which is the Soviet Military Intelligence organisation. I think that the right hon. Member will appreciate that the case of Vassall, when he started in Moscow, would be the job of the K.G.B. I hesitate to go into technicalities, but I think that the House should be clear about
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the difference between these two intelligence organisations and how they operate.
The Admiralty collectively and the naval officers concerned individually must take the responsibility for the shortcomings in the Admiralty which are so clear to us from the evidence given before the Tribunal. I should like to refer specifically to Mr. Pannells. I knew him well. Two of my hon. and gallant Friends served with Mr. Pennells. I knew him as a hard-working friend, a first-rate civil servant and an honourable and quiet family man. Perhaps the House will permit me to read an opinion of him sent by a captain in the Royal Navy which has been received today. It
states:
"…his devotion to duty made him grossly over-worked even by Admiralty standards and this I feel sire contributed to his death at a comparatively early age."
The hon. Member for Coventry, East struck what. I thought was a very good note in suggesting that the niceness of the judicial members of the Tribunal is responsible for the conflict of common sense between the conclusions and the evidence on which those conclusions were based. This has puzzled me and, I believe, many hon. Members. It lies in the niceness of civil servants like Mr. Pennells, who had never been nearer Soviet homosexuals and the K.G.B. than Purley, and it is surprising that he should be placed in this position of responsibility in the Admiralty, positively vetting young men whom he will send to a place of which he has no comprehension at all except that which he learns from a long memorandum circulated to him by the Foreign Office. The fault there lies in the system. That is reflected in the decision announced by my right hon. Friend today that Service personnel only should be seconded to embassies abroad in these particularly "tricky" countries for service with military and naval attachés.
I am afraid that, departmentally speaking, I must agree with right hon. and hon. Members opposite that the responsibility for these shortcomings must lie with the Minister concerned, my noble Friend the First Lord of the Admiralty, for whom I have the greatest personal liking and respect. But responsibility must be accepted. I believe that it is accepted in the Admiralty and I believe that it always will be accepted. Directors

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of Naval Intelligence accept responsibility for what goes on in their departments and the Board of Admiralty as a whole accepts responsibility for what goes on in the Naval Staff Divisions and in Admiralty Departments.
That cannot be said, in my view, of the Foreign Office. I regret to have to say it, but the fact which emerges from the evidence given before the Vassal] Tribunal indicates to me at least a sad lack of taking responsibility by senior officials, particularly in the extraordinarily difficult conditions in Moscow.
What was the threat in Moscow which had to be dealt with? The House knows that I have the greatest respect and liking for the Russian people and the Russian nation. I admire them and have spent a lot of time in their country, but I have never blinded myself or this House for the four years that I have been here to the existence of the dark side of the picture. The Russian secret service has forgotten more than we shall ever know about practical, efficient espionage, as we see from the evidence before us today. It is a tradition which has lasted for four centuries. I did not like the gibe of the hon. Member for Coventry, East that we have been doing the same thing for just as long, but are very inefficient. We never had an Ivan the Terrible. We never had the oprichniki, which was as much above the law and outside the State and was as capable of these horrible methods as the K.G.B. and the G.R.U. are today.
All this applies in Moscow, where we have an atmosphere which is very difficult to convey to hon. Members—an atmosphere of overwhelming suspicion, a claustrophobic feeling of being inside a compound, or a ghetto as we sometimes call it in some Iron Curtain countries. I have experienced it. I know the feel of it. I am always very glad when I get out of it. We know today of the cynical use of arbitrary arrest and of the staging of a trial so that tomorrow's papers shall carry in one column this debate and the conclusions, if any, to which we come, and in another column the depositions and charges against Wynne, in Moscow, where the evidence will show—we can all forecast this with certainty—that we have been engaged with moderate success, in the face of the efficient Soviet security organisations,
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in espionage in conjunction with the Americans, implicating members of our own Embassy in Moscow. We know of the harssing of embassy staff in Iron Curtain country countries.
I believe that it is specific Russian policy to develop a psychological dominance over embassies, particularly that in Moscow, which I have studied from the inside in wartime and from the outside since. I am sorry to have to say it, but I consider that the Russians are remarkably successful in this and that this long catalogue of negligence, of "bettor not" and of the feeling that it will be "all right on the night" throughout these serious incidents can be traced fundamentally to that. Individuals who are not prepared to accept this psychological dominance are usually removed or "framed", or find it necessary to go. Life is made a little too difficult for them, for in multifarious ways the Russians can bring pressure to bear on the embassy staff.
I know personally two naval attachés concerned in this case. It is my opinion that each of them, in his individual way, became part of this psychological dominance. Their successor, who, incidentally, was, in the words of authority, the best naval attaché we have had since the war, was driven nearly crazy, but served out his full time and did magnificently. He is still fighting the civil servants for about £1,400 which he overspent in the course of his duties.
There is the cynical Russian use, as always—or, should I say, misuse—of diplomatic privilege and immunity as a counterpart to the harassing of our own Embassy staff in Moscow. Figures have been given by my hon. Friend the Member for Mid-Bedfordshire which are striking in themselves. We know from the evidence of other security trials that these facilities are misused for the purposes of the espionage in which the Russians are so efficient. The dice is very heavily loaded against us in this respect.
I turn to the responsibility of the Foreign Office in Moscow. I mentioned in an intervention that we were lucky enough to have had as head of our mission in Moscow during the material time in the Vassall case a distinguished diplomat who had previously spent several years as chairman of the Joint

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Intelligence Committee of the Chiefs of Staff. That Committee has a Foreign Office chairman, and it is rightly occupied inter-departmentally with all the major questions of espionage, security and intelligence generally with which the Government are concerned. It is no coincidence, surely, that a man with these attributes should be sent to this very difficult post in Moscow.
It is to me significant that nowhere in the Report can I find acceptance by the Foreign Service, the Foreign Office or the Tribunal itself of the principle of the ultimate responsibility of the head of the mission in Moscow for what went on during his tenure of office. As a Service officer, I believe that the non-acceptance of this principle is false and wrong. It is power without responsibility, which, after all, is anathema to the British system of doing things, and lies at the root of many of the troubles which have come out in a vague way, pasted over as so many of them have been, in the course of this Report.
I should like to quote extracts from a few paragraphs of the Report which bear on what I have just said. The Tribunal says this in paragraph 89:
"The responsibilities for security in Moscow reflected this duality"—
between the naval attaché and the Ambassador himself.
"The Ambassador, as local chief, was ultimately responsible for all Embassy staff…"
That is plainly stated.
Paragraph 91 says this:
"It was not to be expected that the Ambassador could give more than a directing attention to questions of security."
That is a question of opinion on which we can argue in the House. It is not a question of fact on which the contents of this Report should be sacrosanct. I cannot accept—I believe that there are many hon. Members on both sides of the House who will be with me in not accepting—that the Ambassador could not, and could not be expected to—
"give more than a general directing attention to questions of security"—
when he himself, of all men in or out of the United Kingdom, was immediately conversant with the seriousness of these problems through his chairmanship of the J.I.C.
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Paragraph 123 says this:
"Sir William Hayter himself, while not denying that something was said, remembered it only in the vaguest way and thought that the allusion to Vassall was made half jokingly."
In view of the atmosphere in Moscow, that rings very oddly to me.
Paragraph 130 says that Sir William Hayter
"is only brought into the matter at all by the talk that Captain Bennett had with him some time in the autumn of 1954.'
Paragraph 140 says this:
"The senior staff…seem…to have
disliked and distrusted him"—
that is, Mikhailski—
"from the first…Had the authorities realised it earlier, they would have taken action more rapidly and more decisively than they did."
The authorities, not the Ambassador, are mentioned.
Paragraph 143 says that the head of chancery—
"seems not to have been easy to persuade that any further action"—
that is, about Mikhailski—
"would be effective or necessary".
Paragraph 44makes it plain that even after Mikhailski was officially under special suspicion it was decided
"with the approval of the Ambassador, to retain him "—
in the Embassy.
Paragraph 149 says this:
"…is not easy for us to account for the inaction over this minute."
This is after Vassall had been reported on personally in conjunction with Mikhailski by the military attaché.
I agree with this statement in paragraph 94:
"We have no doubt at all that the Ambassador…and all his senior officials in the Embassy were well aware of and alive to danger of this kind…
It is to me almost incredible, first, that nothing serious was done about it, and, secondly, that the responsibility has not been laid by the Tribunal where it properly belongs.
I should like to ask two questions about the attitude of the Tribunal. Five I was most impressed by a great deal of what was said by the hon. Member for Coventry, East, whose speech I shall read with great care in HANSARD tomorrow on this particular aspect. Why

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was it not mentioned in evidence that the Ambassador and his successor had both been chairman of the Joint Intelligence Committee? I should like a reply to this question. If it was put in the Report and omitted, why was this done? It is not secret. I would say that it is clearly not of small significance to anybody involved in these matters of any experience. It would indeed be the very opposite. Who requested the deletion, if that is so?
I agree with the hon. Member for Coventry, East about this, which, I gather, was the tenor of that part of his remarks. It is unrealistic to expect these three distinguished and learned gentlemen, applying their judicial faculties to this very complicated case, to put it against the proper perspective of the atmosphere and background of Moscow. That again, may I repeat, is why it seems to me that the conclusions varied from the substance of the Report.
There was an uncritical attitude throughout the Report towards Foreign Office efficiency. It is almost incredible to me that the Tribunal should say, in paragraph 152(2), that
"The general security system observed in the Embassy was sound and well maintained."
The Tribunal says this in paragraph 128:
"…we accept the view that personal inquiries in the Embassy were, in practice, virtually impossible owing to considerations of propriety and staff morale."
Did Miss Wynne observe that? Did this unnamed official who acted so promptly and patriotically throughout 1955 observe that? They were the only people who observed anything. I certainly do not accept the opinion in this paragraph.
Finally, paragraph 94 says this—this really is rather a gem:
"…the practical question is how far the warnings were communicated to and enforced upon the junior staff"—
of the Embassy—
"a number of whom, not belonging to the Foreign Service, would not even have the background of its general discipline and expertise."
I should like to conclude my remarks with some constructive suggestions. We have seen an utter failure, after a success-ion of such failures in the face of a ruthless and efficient enemy. I believe that we can do much better than we are
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doing now, even with the preservation of our democratic processes, a point which has been brought out on both sides in this debate. I consider that the great weakness in Moscow lies primarily in power without responsibility, in the lack of acceptance by heads of missions of responsibility for everything that goes on in their embassies, with proper account being pair when it goes wrong. I commend this point to the attention of the Government.
The question of representation was touched on by my hon. Friend the Member for Mid-Bedfordshire. Two and a half years ago we had a virtual declaration of war—ideological, economic and political—by the representatives of 81 Communist parties. The so-called cold war is on. We have seen, during the course of today's debate, how near it is to hot war in this intelligence engagement which is always with us. We know of the harassing of our own diplomatic representatives in Iron Curtain countries. We are aware of the misuse of diplomatic immunities and privileges by inflated foreign embassy staffs in our own country.
Is it not possible for the Government to consider the reduction mutually of missions between ourselves and Communist countries, perhaps to the status of chargés d'affaires, in circumstances where, as we see clearly in the Report, the basis of good faith and integrity, which, after all, underlie diplomatic usage in any country, is manifestly seen not to exist? I suggest that the use which is made of certain communication facilities, and certain bag facilities, could be limited mutually. I feel sure that in the circumstances the balance of advantage would be greatly in favour of this country.
In China, we have a mission, headed by a chargé d'affaires, which works admirably in conditions where it is not even officially recognised, except as negotiators for an exchange of embassies. This is a prototype of the small type of mission which I think might usefully be introduced.
None of us can say how many more cases of this kind will come to light. The Prime Minister suggested that there might be a number. I am sure that the criticisms brought out by right hon. and hon. Members—I regret to have to say

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this—principally on the other side of the House, are valid ones. There are great holes in our security organisation, to some of which I have drawn attention. In conclusion, I wonder—I commend this thought to the Government, and my right hon. Friend on the Front Bench knows why I refer particularly to that point—just how much more of this sort of thing the British public will stand.
8.26 p.m.
Mr. Niall MacDermot: am sure that the whole House will wish to congratulate the hon. and gallant Member for Harrow, East (Commander Courtney) on his remarkable and courageous speech. It is difficult to follow it or debate with the hon. and gallant Gentleman because, for my part, I agree with almost every word which he uttered. Like him, I wish to concentrate upon the security questions which are raised by this Report and, to some extent, the tenor of my remarks will run parallel with his.
I spent over six years of my life, during and immediately after the war, in security, some of that time in the security service itself. I say this not to suggest that I have any special qualifications to comment on the Report except, perhaps, that I am aware more than most hon. Members of the difficulties involved in counterespionage. It is clear to me, from a reading of the Report, that the security services today have a far more formidable opponent to contend with than we had during the war. I think that, except, perhaps, in the last six months when Himmler got full control of the German intelligence service, we had the measure of the German intelligence service throughout the war. Today, we have to contend with a much more powerful organisation.
Several criticisms have been made of the judgments and comments of the Tribunal on the facts which it found. To some extent, I agree with what has been said, but I think that we should remember what were the terms of reference of the Tribunal. It was not asked to investigate the efficacy of our security precautions or the security system in force at the time. All the Tribunal was asked to do was to inquire into allegations of negligence, corruption and incompetence on the part
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of particular individuals working within the framework of that system.
In this light, it can be seen that the Tribunal bent over backwards to be fair, exceedingly fair, towards the individuals involved. I agree with the general comment that it is unfortunate that there should have been singled out for particular criticism a gentleman who is now dead and who, it seems to me, should not have been asked to bear any greater responsibility for the inadequacy of the system than anyone else is asked to bear. This is all he was criticised for—that he did not realise that this was a thoroughly rotten system which needed changing and improving. That is the only real criticism levelled against Mr. Pennells, and it is a criticism which, it seems to me, can forcefully be applied to a great number of people who are mentioned in the Report.
We are in the difficulty that we have not seen the evidence and, therefore, we have to base our comments upon the facts as found by the Tribunal. It seems to me that what the Report shows is a failure of security at three points.
First, there was a failure in selecting far what was known to be a highly dangerous post, from the security point of view, a man who, in the various adjectives used by the Tribunal, was a weak, vain, effeminate young bachelor. Second, there was a failure to investigate properly the indications which were given in Moscow that he might be a security risk. Third, there was a failure to bring these matters to the attention of the security authorities when the time came far his positive vetting on his return to the Admiralty in this country.
A recital of some of the facts found by the Tribunal is sufficient to establish these points. By April, 1953, the Foreign Office was well aware that there was a particular risk for people serving in our embassies behind the Iron Curtain of their being involved in compromising situations and then being blackmailed with a view to their recruitment in the Russian intelligence service. It was known that particularly vulnerable to this kind of approach were bachelors and young girls. The Service Departments were warned accordingly and asked to ensure that they selected only people who were suitable for these dangerous posts.

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It seems to me that the Admiralty, in effect, did nothing about this warning. The result was that, for one of these dangerous posts, there was selected this young bachelor who was a weak, vain, effeminate, insinuating snob. I do not think that the Tribunal can be accused of overstating the matter when it says that this was a very bad choice. It seems most unfortunate that the Tribunal picked on Mr. Pennells alone as deserving censure for what was, obviously, a thoroughly defective system in the way in which Vassall was appointed to the job.
For example, who was the official who overruled Mr. Pennells's representations that preference should not be given to applicants who were single? We are not told this in the Report, and it seems to me that this official is at least as deserving of censure as Mr. Pennells. It does not appear from the Report that the interviewing board had any real confidential character assessment before it at the time when Vassal] was appointed. The Tribunal, in exculpating people from blame throughout, stresses that no one knew or had reason to know that Vassall was a practising homosexual, but there was abundant evidence that he was an effeminate young man, and, surely, this called for the closest inquiry into his strength of character.
I pause here to make, in parenthesis, a point which has not yet been made in the debate. Why it is that homosexuals are a particular security risk? It is not that they are less brave than other men. History does not show that. It is not that homosexuals are in their character or nature more vulnerable to corruption. It is not that homosexuals are more likely to be traitors. The point is that homosexuals in this country are peculiarly vulnerable to blackmail. It is because of our attitude of extremely prudish embarrassment towards the whole subject of homosexuality that a person who has been compromised in a homosexual situation is fair game for a foreign intelligence service.
Let us look at the facts in this case. We know from the Tribunal's Report that there were people who had been caught in compromising situations by the Russian intelligence service. They all, as they had been advised and in-
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structed to do, reported the matter to their superiors in the Embassy. The result was that they were returned at once to this country and, I hope, did not suffer for the peccadilloes which had led to their blackmail. But Vassall did not. The reason he did not is that he must have known that, if he had mentioned his homosexuality and the situation he was in, he would have been a condemned man for life in his service. It seems to me that we are paying the price as a country for our attitude to homosexuality, and that, from a security point of view, the sooner we give effect to the recommendations in Part I of the Wolfenden Report the better.
Mr. Emrys Hughes: Does my hon. and learned Friend think that our secret service would hesitate to employ homosexuals to put Russians in comprising situations if it wanted Russian military secrets?
Mr. MacDermot: I have no knowledge of its methods; I do not know whether that would be so or not. All I am pointing out is that our attitude towards homosexuality renders us as a country peculiarly vulnerable to this kind of attack by the Russian intelligence service.
Mr. William Shepherd: Does not the hon. and learned Gentleman realise that homosexuals are dangerous from two points of view, first, their promiscuity, and, second, from the fact that they have a grievance against society and are prepared, therefore, if necessary, to go against society? Whatever might be done in the reform of the law will not alter the attitude of society.
Mr. MacDermot: The grievance results from the attitude of society to which I have referred, and I have seen no evidence that homosexuals are any more promiscuous than heterosexuals.
Throughout the Report there is abundant evidence of Vassall's effeminacy and the fact that this was well known. The Report tells us that the general assessment of the majority of those who knew him in the Admiralty—this was before he went to Moscow—was that he was effeminate, not manly, a "bit of a miss", foppish. These were the terms used. On his arrival in Moscow, Captain Bennett thought that he was a possible latent homosexual. Captain Bennett was so worried about it that, in August, 1954, on

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his return to this country, he mentioned the matter specifically to Mr. Pennells. This was before Vassall had yet been recruited by the Russian intelligence service. He referred again in his report at the end of 1954 to Vassall's irritating effeminate personality, and he mentioned the matter to the Ambassador who, whether because he was embarrassed or I know not what, assumed that Captain Bennett must be speaking half jokingly. I agree with the hon. and gallant Member for Harrow, East, that this was a curious assumption.
Being unable, apparently, to produce tangible evidence to support his suspicions, Captain Bennett then, unfortunately--perhaps disastrously—retracted and gave to Vassal! a character assessment which patently he never deserved. But Captain Bennett still remained of the same opinion, apparently, because, when he was approached in 1962 by security officers who were then inquiring into Vassall's case, he volunteered the assessment that Vassall was an undoubted homosexual.
The Tribunal, in exonerating Captain Bennett, seems to me to use a very dangerous argument. It says that he was entitled to assume that the proper process of screening and selection had been employed. 'This seems a specific instance of the kind of dangerous niceness referred to by my hon. Friend the Member for Coventry, East (Mr. Crossman). Anyone who has experience in security intelligence will know that vetting at its best is a very haphazard affair and that it is highly dangerous for anyone to assume that, once a person has passed a positive vetting test, thereafter one can, as it were, stifle any form of suspicion one has about him because he has been cleared.
If Captain Bennett had grounds for suspecting Vassall, as it is clear that he did, it would be quite disastrous if, by training, he had been led to the attitude that he should not really entertain such ungentlemanly suspicions about someone on his staff in a post of this kind.
Then there is the further evidence. Captain Northey, who succeeded Captain Bennett, assessed Vassall as a "pansy little man". Most of his colleagues in the junior ranks called Vassall effeminate and "pansy" and nicknamed him "Vera". An American Press corre-
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spondent, Mr. Johnson, and a fellow Press correspondent in Moscow, thought that Vassall was "queer". Finally, one of the elderly ladies Vassall gave as a reference for vetting made the pointed observation that he took very little interest in the opposite sex.
It is remarkable indeed that none of these assessments of his character and personality led to his being withdrawn from his post in Moscow or were brought to the attention of the security officer who eventually had to undertake his positive vetting. This seems all the more extraordinary when one considers the circumstances of the employment of the services of Mikhailski. He was engaged by the British Embassy as an interpreter and general runabout for the convenience of the Embassy. He was supplied by a Russian agency in circumstances which the Tribunal notes were themselves suspicious. But the Tribunal excuses this on the ground that to refuse anyone offered by the agency resulted in months of delay before someone else was offered.
It is clear that Mikhailski cultivated Vassal] at an early stage and that homosexual relations took place between them —which is the answer to the hon. Member for Cheadle (Mr. Shepherd)—and that Mikhailski introduced Vassall to Russian agents who compromised and recruited him.
By the end of 1955, as has been pointed out, an anonymous member of the Embassy staff—we are not told his name —had become so suspicious of Mikhailski that he had prepared a memorandum, which was seen by the Ambassador. No action was taken except for a short circular sent round the staff referring to Mikhailski by name. We are told that after much discussion it was decided to retain him on the ground that if he was got rid of whoever would follow, after considerable delay, would be no less under Russian control.
This was an astonishing decision, and clearly shows that they had accepted that Mikhailski was under Russian control. Immediately afterwards, there came the report from Miss Wynne giving positive evidence that Mikhailski was under Russian control and naming people who had been particular targets for his approaches, one of them being Vassall.
No one approached Vassall about this and no action was taken on that minute.

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Still less did anyone think of returning home this "pansy little man", as the naval attaché thought him to be, although he was now known to be an object of the approaches of the Russian secret service. The Tribunal makes the extraordinary note that
"…it is not easy for us to account for the inaction over this minute"
The Tribunal seems to think that it was part of its duty to account for the inaction. I do not know why.
In September, 1956, an attempt by the Russian secret service to blackmail a wireless maintenance engineer through black market offences into which he had been led by Mikhailski was reported by him and he was returned to England. In consequence Mikhailski was dismissed but even then there was no follow-up of Miss Wynne's report. In April, 1957, an air attaché's clerk, who again had been compromised through Mikhailski into a black market offence, reported that he had been approached by the Russian intelligence service and he was returned to this country. Still there was no follow-up of Miss Wynne's report.
It is certainly somewhat extraordinary that this inaction should be thought to be less deserving of censure than the inaction of Mr. Pennells before Vassall had ever been recruited for Moscow. Perhaps most extraordinary of all is the part of the story contained in paragraph 35 of the general survey. It is not referred to in detail later and perhaps this is one of the parts excluded from the Report. Paragraph 35 says:
"…it is known of Mikhailski…that he was a close friend of a diplomat in another Embassy, a friend of Vassall, who is reported to have been sent home from Moscow because of his homosexual leanings, and that he was concerned in yet another case of homosexual compromise affecting a third Embassy."
I should be interested to hear more information about that paragraph. When was this known? By whom? What was done about it? Why is it not dealt with in the general body of the Report?
I suggest that the conclusions to be drawn from this disturbing picture are that at that time—we do not know whether there still is—there was a great lack of awareness of the proper responsibility towards security on the part of senior staffs both in the Admiralty, the Foreign Office, and in the Moscow
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Embassy, and that a far greater degree of education in security matters is required.
What is to be done about it? What hon. Members may not know is that the Departments are responsible for their own internal security. The security service is a secret intelligence body concerned with counter-intelligence. It is not an executive body at all, and it has no executive powers. It cannot give orders to the Departments, it cannot give instructions to them—unless matters have changed a great deal in the last twenty years.
The only person who is in a position to ensure that there is proper control and co-ordination of security throughout the Department of State is the Prime Minister. It is to him that the security service is responsible, and it seems to me that what this Report shows is needed is a far greater degree of co-ordination and instruction of the individual Departments by the security service. We get a picture of divided responsibility and divided control throughout.
I have every confidence in the security service. I am sure that it is highly efficient at spy catching, but spy catching is an entirely different matter from security. Security is the responsibility of Departments, and consists of controls designed to prevent people of weak character being appointed to positions where they are vulnerable from the security point of view, and controls designed to ensure that secret information is restricted in circulation to the absolute minimum number of people, and that physical difficulties are put in the way of any spy or agent getting such information, copying it or getting it out of the Department.
Those are the sort of things that are dealt with by security. Security does not catch spies—it is intelligence that does that. As to that, I feel sure that we can be confident that we have a highly efficient body. But I certainly do not feel at all confident that our Government Departments are as yet anything like as security conscious as they should be, or have as efficient an organisation as they ought to have.
I want to add my plea to the Home Secretary that he should now consider the release of the journalist, Mulholland. Mulholland may have cut, and did cut, a very sorry figure as a journalist when trying to defend the articles he had

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written, but that has nothing to do with the reasons for which he is now in prison. Because a man may have acted dishonourably in one capacity is no reason for continuing to penalise him in another capacity in which, as I think we all would agree, he did act honourably according to his lights. So many people have received the benefit of the charitable spirit which has prevailed in all the inquiries into this matter that it seems to me that, Foster having been released, it is time that Mulholland also was released. The point of principle has been established, and it is mere vindictiveness to keep him in prison any longer.
Once again, we have been disturbed to see the tribunal procedure operating in a way that exposes people who are not subject to any kind of charge and are not in a position to defend themselves, being pilloried in public, in the Press, and having their reputations destroyed. They do not even have the privilege enjoyed by anyone charged with any offence, Or against whom a civil action is brought, of refusing to give evidence. They can be compelled to give evidence. It seems questionable to apply the rigours of our system of examination and cross-examination to a kind of semi-judicial proceeding that has nothing whatever to do with our legal tradition at all.
This inquiry is a form of inquisition and, if it is to be an inquisition, there is quite a case for saying that it should be left to the tribunal to do its own inquiring, that it should do the questioning, and that witnesses ought not to be subject to this process of examination and cross-examination. Whatever be the right answer to this problem, I am sure that the time has now come when we need to set up a committee, a Select Committee or a Departmental Committee, to inquire into the working of the procedure.
8.50 p.m.
Mr. Philip Goodhart: I have listened to almost every word that has been spoken from the Opposition benches, and I congratulate the hon. and learned Member for Derby, North (Mr. MacDermot) on being the first on his side to recognise that catching spies is a supremely difficult task, and that our intelligence service has done a pretty good job in this case.
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I part company from him rather sharply, however, over his view that one of the reasons why Mr. Vassall was recruited so readily into the Russian secret service was that we had not implemented the first part of the Wolfenden Report.
If the hon. and learned Gentleman looks at paragraph 31 of the Report we are now discussing, he will see that, in fact, Vassall had been surprised with a Russian officer and threatened with prosecution under the Russian law. It therefore seems that not only have we to implement Part I of Wolfenden, but we have to get the Russians themselves and the Communist world to implement it.
Mr. MacDermot: But if Vassall had come clean and had reported to the naval attaché in Moscow what had occurred he would have been returned to this country at once and would not have been subject to any legal proceedings in Russia.
Mr. Goodhart: One does not know what happened precisely in that confrontation and the threats which were used to Vassall at that point. It must be a matter of conjecture. This is one of the unsatisfactory things about 'a debate of this sort; we are talking about secret matters and much, therefore, must be complete conjecture.
It is difficult to talk about the successes of our intelligence services, and it is possible that at the moment we are debating quite the wrong subject and that the lapses over the Vassall case will pale into insignificance when compared with possible defects in our intelligence in the Far East with respect to the recent uprising in Brunei.
The Report has been criticised as having been a fairly bland affair, and I join in some if those criticisms. There are some points of detail which I find it difficult to accept as showing a good state of affairs. Is a former deputy commissioner of the Nigerian police really a suitable person to carry out positive vetting? I have been involved in one or two positive vetting cases, and it has seemed to me that the questions asked of me were put from an old-fashioned point of view. I think that the Tribunal has dwelt over-much on the importance of the circulars about conditions behind the Iron Curtain which had

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been sent to the Admiralty and elsewhere and the importance of briefing people about the fact that they were liable to meet subversion.
I was in Moscow in 1954 and 1955. I visited the Embassy a number of times and met a number of diplomats and junior staff there. It seemed to me that there was no doubt on the part of everyone concerned that they were under siege and that every Russian or other national behind the Iron Curtain they met was a potential spy.
I find it perplexing that more attention was not paid in the Embassy in Moscow to the very close contacts which Mr. Vassall had clearly had with Soviet nationals. One of the effects of such conditions is that the diplomatic community is pushed in on itself and that one's individual business becomes everyone's business. If one does not turn up at the Embassy ping-pong party on Thursday because one is having dinner with one's Russian's contacts, that sort of thing is noticed after a while, and I am surprised that this sort of information had not been filtered back.
At the same time, I join those who have expressed the hope that some sort of recognition will be given to Miss Wynne for the report which she sent in. It is never pleasant to bear tales on anyone, and no doubt the report which she sent in was distasteful to her. It seems to me right that she might be considered for the M.B.E., with the Agatha Christie clasp.
Looking back to 1954 and 1955, one has to remember the atmosphere which prevailed. At that time McCarthyism was riding high in the United States and it was a common topic of conversation in embassies and throughout much of the country that the McCarthyites and their persecution were doing immense damage to the American foreign service and the American Government. Occasionally some malefactor was discovered, but by and large the overall effect was of immense damage to the American system. I draw attention to a view clearly expressed in paragraph 209 of the Report when it said that spying on one's colleagues and the reporting of character defects, if it became part of our system, would be
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not only injurious to the Civil Service but would be intolerable to our way of life. We have suffered in this one instance as a result of maintaining this attitude.
If we tried to impose a totally alien security system on our Civil Service we would stand to lose far more than we would gain. McCarthyism was not just guilt by association. It also involved, as the hon. Member for Norfolk, Central (Mr. Ian Gilmour) pointed out in a brilliant maiden speech, the making of charges behind the cloak of privilege which were not than substantiated. From the moment that Senator McCarthy stood up in West Virginia, in February, 1950, and said that he had in his hand a list of Communists who were working in the State Department, those who were trying to combat it were desperately attempting to get him on to a stand where he could be asked questions by some sort of tribunal and be made to back up his charges. It was not for years—until, finally, he came before a sub-committee of the Senate—that one was able to get Senator McCarthy into a position from which he could not wriggle out and by which it was proved that he had absolutely no basis for many of the wild accusations he was making.
Our tribunal system has been much criticised today because of the unfairness it may do, in passing, to individual reputations; in this case those of Mr. Lewin and Mr. Pennells. Nevertheless, let us think back to the damage that Senator McCarthy did to the whole of the American State Department and to the American structure of government as such. If there had been a proper tribunal system in the United States I am convinced that McCarthyism could never have made the inroads on the other side of the Atlantic that it did. So, before we get too loud in our criticism of the tribunal system and before we show ourselves too ready to scrap it, I hope that we will realise that unsubstantiated charges can do just as much damage to liberty and reputation as anything else.
9.4 p.m.
Sir Frank Soskice: During the seventeen years in which I have sat in this House I have always thought that the task of the hon. Member who is to wind up a debate is far from enviable. One sits in a state of acute anxiety

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throughout the afternoon and listens to a flood of arguments washing like a deluge over all the points one has prepared so that, by the end of the debate, one rises to one's feet with a certain anxiety lest tautology may be the title appended to one's speech.
It has, however, one very definite consolation, because it is by custom of the House the task of the hon. Member who winds up--indeed, my great pleasure—to congratulate a new hon. Member on his maiden speech. That I do with a right good will. The hon. Member for Norfolk, Central (Mr. Ian Gilmour), I thought, made a most admirable, highly controversial speech. Comparisons are odious, and it is not customary for those congratulating a new Member to draw comparisons between his speech and other speeches by maiden speakers.
If it were not contrary to custom, I would most certainly say, as I certainly think, that the speech which the hon. Member made is one of the best we have heard from maiden speakers for many years. I hope that we hear a lot more from him. If the speech thatthe hon. Member made this afternoon is, in his view, a non-controversial one, we shall be all the snore eager and excited to hear a speech which, in his estimation, is thoroughly controversial. Therefore, we have a lot to look forward to in the coming years and I am sure that the hon. Member will gratify our anticipation.
Whilst I am on that note in the introductory part of my speech, I should like to say to the hon. Member for Glasgow, Hillhead (Mr. Galbraith), who is sitting next to the hon. Member, that I am sure that we all feel intense pleasure in the reflection that his reputation is completely and authoritatively re-established. I feel that we would all wish to extend to him and his family our sympathy for the anguishing months through which they must have lived until this final pronouncement was made by the Tribunal.
Having made those two introductory observations, I should like to try to summarise what, as far as I can see, are the main points of principle so far as the public interest is affected which emerged from the debate and from the contents of the Report. First and foremost, I suppose, is the security question as it emerges from the text of the Report.
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Secondly, I suppose, is the question whether the procedure followed by the Tribunal under the terms of the 1921 Act ought to be reviewed on the basis that defects in its operation have been disclosed. Thirdly, there is the position of the Press as it has been affected by the proceedings of the Tribunal and of the Queen's Bench Division on the Tribunal's Report.
May I address myself, first, to the security question? I certainly share the view of almost every hon. and right hon. Member who, with greater or less emphasis, with, if I may say so, the sole exception of the Prime Minister, has expressed some surprise at the somewhat lenient way in which the various figures who have paused across the stage have been treated as far as the discharge of their security duties was concerned. As for Mr. Pennells, I will say no more than that I would re-emphasise the comment which has been made that it was, after all, he who recommended that selection should not be limited to a single man or a single woman. I should have thought that that was a matter of considerable importance. It is not easy to conceive of a married man, with the solidity which family life generally brings with it, becoming involved in the sort of compromising situation in which Vassall became involved, or in which a single woman might also become involved. I suppose that black market operations might tempt married as well as single men, but that would obviously have been a major precaution to take. The unfortunate Mr. Pennells was discerning enough to point that out, although his recommendation in that respect was overruled by someone whose individuality is not known.
Having said that, however, it seems to me that some of the conclusions of the Tribunal, as distinct from its findings of fact, are lenient. It is important to make clear to oneself exactly what the Tribunal was called upon to do. Basically, it was called upon to find facts—to ascertain how it came about that various incidents took place, and whether there was any foundation of fact in a wide variety of rumours which had been disseminated.
In the concluding passages of the Report, with the exception of Mr. Pennells and a few others, the Tribunal proceeds affirmatively to exonerate—from

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the point of view of security considerations—practically everybody whose name was mentioned, including those in the Moscow Embassy. Its references to the Moscow Embassy are perhaps the most surprising passages in the Report. My hon. and learned Friend the Member for Derby, North (Mr. MacDermot) has already put to the House a series of points, in succession, which I had intended to put on that aspect of the case.
To me, the Report is a terrifying document, because of the facts which it discloses. Turning to what seem to me the three central component parts—the wretched little creature Vassall, having been selected out of a short list of eight people by a process which can reasonably be regarded only as somewhat haphazard, was sent to the danger spot, Moscow. It was known when he got there—and it had been known for some time—that the Russian technique included the bringing about of compromising situations, upon which a process of blackmail was based. It was well known that that was a risk to which anybody going to that place would be continuously exposed.
In this country, if Mr. X invited Mr. Y to dinner, I suppose that it would be somewhat unrealistic, in ordinary circumstances, for Mr. Y to say to himself, "Probably the purpose of this invitation is to compromise me", but in Moscow, if Mr. X invited Mr. Y to dinner, and Mr. X happened to be Mr. Mikhailski, the odds on the object of the invitation being to compromise Mr. Y would be about 99 to 1.
It was in this situation that this little man—this somewhat vainglorious and pansy little creature—was plunged into the maelstrom of Moscow diplomatic life. It is not as if he lived in the Embassy, under the eye of the Ambassador. He lived in Ulitsa Narodnaya—about two miles from the Embassy. What happened to him when he completed his work at the Embassy and returned to the flat which he shared for some time at this address was known, to nobody So far as is known, nobody tried to find out. What he did, being invited out here and there, apparently seems to have been nobody's concern.
When to that consideration is added the fact that he was obviously a person who had struck many people as a possible
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homosexual, it is quite extraordinary that no steps were taken by anybody to prevent what ultimately took place—and, indeed, that everybody who might have taken steps was exonerated from any responsibility.
My hon. and learned Friend has already retailed the circumstances. There was Miss Wynne, who says that it was obvious that the known suspect, Mikhailski, was deliberately directing his attentions to Vassall: there was Captain Bennett, who thought that Vassall was not a roaring homosexual, but a latent one, or a person with homosexual proclivities. The younger members of the Embassy referred to Vassall as "Vera". I should have thought that the Christian names more usually applied in that sort of situation were Gladys or Florence, but the name "Vera" contained a very obvious connotation and any respectable man who was addressed by the Christian name "Vera", in this country at any rate, would react extremely violently.
If these facts are taken together and added to the situation of acute danger in which this man was living, the only way one can describe it is to say that it was a situation in which a pretty obvious homosexual—however that term is defined and whether he was a practising homosexual or just the kind of person who has homosexual tendencies —was let loose in Moscow in circumstances in which everybody who had anything to do with it knew that a man like that would be the obvious target for Russian secret service agents, and not only knew that he would be the obvious target, but was, in fact, the actual target for a person who at the Embassy was thought to be under Russian influence, the man Mikhailski.
The result Which anybody might have expected took place. Of course, when he is compromised, the damage is done. Nobody knows about it and he goes about his espionage work and this little man goes on for seven years undetected. Then he comes back to London and he goes to N.I.D. and has access to top secret documents and in 1956 he is subjected to positive vetting.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Huyton (Mr. H. Wilson) has already subjected the process which was applied to Vassall to an examination and com-

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parison with the kind of vetting which would have been applied in the United States, for example. I agreed with the Prime Minister when he said that there was a limit to the degree of dragooning and personal investigation tolerable in this country. Fortunately, this country does not live according to Russian norms and it may well be the case, and no doubt is the fact, that we find it difficult to acquire the kind of security-mindedness which is habitual in many authoritarian countries.
We lived through the Hitler period and the Second World War and we have since lived through the cold war, but in this country it still goes against the grain to accustom oneself to the idea that one must constantly, in any given situation, watch the man next door and see whether he ever displays any of those characteristics which we sometimes notice in people whom we know, but which we are polite enough to pretend not to notice, but which, if we wish to evaluate them, point to those persons as being security risks.
But when all is said and done, to say that the system, at any rate, worked well, is incomprehensible. It may well be that on the facts which it investigated in its remarkably careful and thorough and comprehensive Report the Tribunal could properly come to the conclusion that it could not say positively on the evidence that it could be established that any individual was to blame. I myself would have had some difficulty in concluding that no one was to blame, certainly in the case of the British Ambassador, who had overall responsibility for security.
But if that is the Tribunal's approach, the real tertium quid which should have been on trial, and perhaps was not, was the security system itself. One asks whether, on these facts, the security system should be regarded as wanting. I would have said that it was appallingly bad, and that is the view which has been expressed by almost every speaker who has addressed the House.
Was this the right procedure? Personally, I take the view that the procedure under the 1921 Act is in itself extremely valuable when applied in the proper circumstances. If one is to scotch malignant rumour affecting a whole lot of people and attributing to them some kind of personal misbehaviour, personal dishonesty, or something of the sort, one of
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those amorphous rumours which it is very difficult to pin down and about which it is difficult to know where it will go and from what it emanates, the Tribunal procedure is undoubtedly particularly valuable for use by the House of Commons.
When this House sometimes runs into the situation in which personal aspersions are made against Members of this House or against Ministers, I would have thought that it was constitutionally of extreme value for the House to be able to say, "We divest ourselves of the inquiry. We put the inquiry into the seisin of independent judicial authorities, and we ask them, using the special procedure aplicable to the inquiry into that kind of rumour, to see exactly what happened, to ascertain the facts, to see whether the rumours had any foundation, and, if tley did not, authoritatively to give denials to what is said by way of aspersion."
For that sort of situation, I would have thought that this kind of procedure was ideal. No doubt, the unfortunate individuals whose names are mentioned go through many months of extreme mental anguish until the final pronouncement is reached, but when it is reached, if they are innocent, and it exculpates them, I would have thought that they were in a far better position than they would be if any Select Committee procedure were adopted. The public have complete confidence in persons of the calibre of Lord Radcliffe, and if Lord Radcliffe and his colleagues come to the conclusion, after an exhaustive investigation of the evidence, that a charge or an imputation against an individual is unfounded, that, I would have thought, finally disposes of that charge.
By contrast, while I would not wish to impugn the proceedings of any Select Committee of this House, I nevertheless think that it is the case, from the point of view of the public, if a Select Committee is investigating the conduct, say, of a Minister or Member of this House, its proceedings will not carry the same degree of public confidence. It will be said, "Well, after all, the Member or the Minister, as the case may be, is being tried by his colleagues. Some of the members of the Select Committee will be colleagues on the same side of the House as that on which the individual impugned sits." I would have

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thought that by the very nature of things the same public confidence would not go with an inquiry of that sort and that the same degree of authority would not be vested in its findings as goes with the findings of a completely independent judicial tribunal.
Therefore, I think that it would be a great pity if, by any change in the law, we in effect put an end to the procedure of this sort of Tribunal. Since the Act was passed in 1921, there have been about 15 cases in which its aid has been invoked, and while considerable suffering has been occasioned to the unfortunate victims of the imputations while it was sitting, nevertheless, it finally and for good scotches rumours. There is nothing so utterly pestilential as the malignant rumour that is allowed to continue to circulate. It may shed suspicion on the unfortunate victim which, if it is not finally scotched, may follow him for the rest of his public and, indeed, his private life.
These are the first two issues which seem to me to arise out of this debate. I should like now to go to what I think is the third, the position of the Press. Great anxiety was expressed, certainly some time ago—although I think that it has been to some extent allayed—by the Press as a whole as to whether the requirement that journalists should disclose their sources could be said to inhibit the complete freedom of the Press. If I thought that that was a well-founded anxiety, I should myself at once accede to the view that we should change the law to prevent it. But I do not.
How often is a journalist required to disclose his sources? It is very rare. According to Lord Denning, in the Court of Appeal, at the hearing of the Mulholland and Foster case, it happened on only three occasions his Lordship knew of; in the case of the Parnell Commission in 1889; in an Irish case in 1935; and in an Australian case in 1941.
If any member of the profession of journalism is brought fair and square to face the problem, "Do you think that you should have a privilege which the law does not give to others?" I think that the answer he would give would be, "No". It would be "No" because
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suppose a judicial proceeding was going on and an individual journalist had knowledge which could produce a fair result; if he were asked, should he disclose that knowledge, he undoubtedly would say, "Of course I should". Everybody would; any conscientious journalist would. If he were then asked the further question, "Who is to decide whether the information you possess may influence the result to prevent an injustice? Should it be you or the judge?", I am sure that any conscientious journalist would say, "Most clearly the judge, he is much better qualified than I am to form a view about that."
I should have thought that that was the conclusive answer which anyone would accept, and which I think is now widely accepted, on the question of there being any special change in the law to give journalists a privilege which, after all, priests do not have, doctors do not have and which, broadly speaking, no one has, except legal advisers.
A doctor to whom a patient may impart the confidential information that he suffers from a venereal disease is bound, should the occasion arise, to disclose that information in a court, although the disclosure may mean the break-up of a family. I do not think that any journalist would wish to be put in a more favourable position vis-àvis the law of privilege than a doctor or a priest; a Roman Catholic priest, for example, who is bound to disclose information confidentially imparted to him in the confessional.
It has been suggested that the right way to deal with the situation which arose in the case of this Tribunal was for the matter to be referred back to this House. I put it to the House that that really is not right. We in this House formulated the terms of reference to the Tribunal and must surely accept the result of those terms of reference. The Tribunal required a disclosure by journalists of sources of their information. If that was the wrong result, it is we who are responsible.
If the matter is to be referred back to us; if the Tribunal is required by an alteration of the law, that sort of situation developing, to refer back to this House and say, "What are your directions now?", what would we be able to do?

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We should have to alter our own terms of reference to the Tribunal—[Horn. MEMBERS: "Why not."] Hon. Members say, "Why not?" We should not have got them wrong in the first place.
Mr. Michael Foot: We were not permitted to amend the terms of reference in the first place. If the Government had produced their proposition in proper terms, so that the House could have had the opportunity of amendment, we might have considered an amendment. Some of us protested against the original establishment of the Tribunal on those terms on the ground that we were not even permitted to amend the terms which we were asked to vote about.
Sir F. Soskice: The hon. Member is perfectly right. This House does decide by a majority. It may be that the minority view was right and that it was wrongly voted down by the majority. But as long as we decide matters by majorities in this House, we cannot complain if the Tribunal takes on itself to discharge faithfully the task which we by majority entrust to it.
I have come to the limit of the time fairly allotted to me.
The Prime Minister: Go on.
Sir F. Soskice: The Prime Minister says, "Go on". I am aware that in that respect I disagree slightly with the view expressed by my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition.
The Prime Minister: Wholly.
Sir F. Soskice: But I wholeheartedly agree with the strictures of my right hon. Friend against the Prime Minister. I disagree with what he said about the Prime Minister in only one respect. I thought that he was far too mild. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] I thought that that observation might produce a change of view. I had provided for it. On that note, I may say to the Prime Minister, I conclude my observations.
9.31 p.m.
The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Mr. Iain Macleod): The concluding observations of the right hon. and learned Member for Newport (Sir F. Soskice), as perhaps he noticed, were not greeted with overwhelming enthusiasm by his hon. Friends, which is not surprising, because they were in direct contradiction,
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as I understood them, of the point of view put to us by the Leader of the Opposition. I will come to the point about the Tribunal.
I have heard every speech in what I think has been a very good debate. I suppose that, in a sense, it might have been an even better debate if it had not been in the aftermath of one particular security case and when one particular Tribunal's Report was very much in our minds. I join with the right hon. and learned Member for Newport in the congratulations which many hon. Members have given to my hon. Friend the Member for Norfolk, Central (Mr. Ian Gilmour) on his outstanding maiden speech.
I shall consider, first, the relationships with the Press, secondly—which is at the heart of the matter—the question of security, and, thirdly, the interesting points raised about the procedure under the Tribunals of Inquiry (Evidence) Act. First, I wish to deal with the problems which arise from the relationship between politicians and the Press. May I take a text for this and quote something which President Kennedy said on 16th December last year? He was being asked whether he was still as avid a reader of the Press as he had been and what role he thought it should play in a democratic society. He contrasted the position in America with that in Russia and went on:
"…there is a terrific disadvantage not having the abrasive quality of the Press applied to you daily, to an administration, even though we never like it, and even though we wish they didn't write it, and even though we disapprove, there isn't any doubt that we could not do the job at all in a free society without a very, very active Press."
I like the word "abrasive". It exactly sums up the relationship that there should be. I do not believe that the relationship between a government and the Press can be anything but tough if both sides are doing their job, although there is no reason why they should not have a certain regard for each other as well.
Most people feel uneasy about the revelations in this Radcliffe Report. Although I am an associate member of the Institute of Journalists, I do not agree with the statement which it put out so swiftly after publication. I think that the two anxieties of the ordinary person are these. First, the realisation of how

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quickly competition becomes cannibalism and how much copying of other people's stories is practised, and, secondly, the presentation of what is in truth speculation as if it were fact.
Perhaps I can illustrate the last point. Since the agenda of Cabinet meetings is secret, nothing is revealed except the names of the Ministers outside the Cabinet who have attended. Sometimes, as with the pre-Budget Cabinet, everybody knows what is being discussed. But, for the rest, it is a matter of speculation, and the speculation is very often wrong. It is wrong because the presence of, shall I say, the Attorney-General is linked to whatever legal matter may be in the headlines. But the time scale of the speculation is wrong because it is likely that the Attorney-General's presence relates to something not yet in the headlines and which, perhaps, may never be there. There is a similar position with other Ministers. From this initial speculation other inferences are drawn until the end stories are far from reality.
First, does it matter that the people of this country read political stories which are not soundly based? I think that it does. Clearly it conflicts with C. P. Scott's dictum that "Comment is free, facts are sacred." Secondly, we must ask ourselves whether this can be avoided. I am bound to say that, given the techniques of modern mass circulation journalism, I think that the only honest answer is "No"—anyway, not entirely.
I agree with the point—I believe that it is in paragraph 14—of the hon. Member for Coventry, East (Mr. Crossman) about the different factual basis that a journalist must have. It is not possible or desirable to ban political speculation, and, more important still, it is not practicable for a working journalist to put into his story all the reservations that he either knows or thinks ought to be there. If he did the sub-editor would knock them straight out. The journalist does not write the headlines, so the story which he produces in the end which gives an appearance of factual reporting may be no more than intelligent guesswork.
I think that one of the reasons for this is that in many papers the outlines of the news pages are planned before the
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news is firm. Therefore, when a story which proves to have less foundation when investigated than was thought may be swollen to fit the space reserved for it. There is a classic example for all time of how a story based on very little can escalate, and that is the story of my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Hillhead (Mr. Galbraith). The right hon. and learned Member for Newport was quite right. For months my hon. Friend and his family have had to bear the whole brunt of what Baldwin once called —I think he used the words in connection with another tribunal, if I remember rightly—"the unthinking cruelty of modern publicity." I believe that in calmer moments, looking hack on it, many people must now be sad and ashamed of what they wrote and what was said here and elsewhere.
The remedies are for the Press itself. Parliament cannot effectively impose them, nor should it try. The Leader of the Opposition made the interesting suggestion that newspaper proprietors might have a self-denying ordinance not to buy the stories of spies, murderers and others. I agree with him. This suggestion was made by my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House of Lords when the Motion to set up this Tribunal was moved. It was also made, as I expect the right hon. Gentleman remembers, by Mr. Randolph Churchill in the News of the World a week ago. Therefore, the right hon. Gentleman is in good but for him rather unusual company in putting the suggestion forward. Parliament should not try to impose these remedies. We have enough to do putting our own house in order. However, there are lessons for the Press in this Report. There are also lessons for the Government.
Before leaving this topic I should like to say—I am sure all Members will join me in this—that these disturbing events need not in any way affect the close traditional Lobby links that all Members have with the Press.
On the question of security in a free society, the Leader of the Opposition was quite right. The Report and the debate were first and foremost about security. We cannot be, we must not be, and I assure the House we are not, complacent because, after all, it did happen. When all the words in the Report have been read, when all the explanations have been

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made, it did happen that a spy was there for those years. Everyone must be or ought to be extremely anxious about this.
The Leader of the Opposition put some direct questions to me which I should like to answer as well as I can. He first raised a very interesting point about local staff. He asked what the Americans do in Moscow and what the Russians do here. I am told that the American Embassy in Moscow employs local staff. I therefore presume—I have not had time to check this—that it has to employ them through the same agency whose methods are described in the Report. The Russians have no local staff in London and I think this is their invariable custom.
My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister referred to this point. It seems to me be a difficult one. I do not put this on grounds of economy, but if an Embassy is to take the whole of its staff with it—this would mean presumably cleaners, charwomen, gardeners, everybody—the number of people who would have to undergo very strict vetting indeed would be enormously swollen and they would be automatic targets. This has to be balanced against the undoubted fact, which the Report brings out with great clarity, that all of these people that one employs in this way come from a corps organised for this purpose and are agents or potential agents.
The right hon. Gentleman then asked when Lord Radcliffe was going to make a separate Report dealing with any weakness in the security arrangements which came to our notice during this inquiry. The House will remember that my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister in moving the Motion for setting up this Inquiry said that he had asked Lord Radcliffe to do this and that Lord Radoliffe had agreed to do so. The Prime Minister in his speech today referred to a number of points which are not recommendations in the Tribunal's Report but which suggested themselves on an examination of these incidents. The Prime Minister has discussed these matters with Lord Radcliffe. I do not think that it would be appropriate to publish them as a formal additional Report, but naturally my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister,
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just as he showed the Leader of the Opposition the full Report, would be glad to discuss this matter further with him if the Leader of the Opposition so wishes.
The right hon. Member for Bassetlaw (Mr. Ballenger) made some references to my noble Friend the First Lord of the Admiralty. The right hon. Gentleman said that he was not going to say that he—that is, the First Lord—knew that a spy was in the Admiralty. I am bound to say that I should hope not. The right hon. Gentleman went on to say that in his view it was right, on the general doctrine of Ministerial responsibility, that my noble Friend should tender his resignation. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman did not hear the Prime Minister's words this afternoon on this particular point, and so it would be right for me to repeat them to the House. My right hon. Friend said, "And as regards my noble Friend, not one of the specific errors of judgment referred to in this Report, or for that matter in the Report in the Portland case, occurred while he was in charge of the Department", I think that disposes of that point.
The most difficult point is the question whether one can in a free society make the positive vetting system better up to the point of being almost unassailable. Some suggestions on this were made. The hon. Member for Dudley (Mr. Wigg) said that, if there had been more investigation into Vassall's school and Service records, it would have thrown up evidence of his homosexual tendencies or behaviour. Vassall's school record is put down as satisfactory. His Service record is put down as "Very good conduct throughout iervice". This appears in paragraph 23 of the Report.
I concede this point: if it were possible—I m not sure that the sheer mechanics of it would make it possible —to have a much more detailed system of investigation—in other words, to spread the P.V. system much wider and have far more investigations-1 suppose it is conceivable that such evidence would be thrown up.
The right hon. Member for Bassetlaw asked me whether anyone who is known to be a homosexual is excluded from positions of importance in the embassies or in relation to classified material. The

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answer is "Yes", but I recognise that this begs the question because one has to use the words "If it is known". If hon. Members study the Report they will see that all Foreign Service personnel, attachés and their staffs, are now positively vetted—this is in paragraph 77—and that any such tendency would normally rule out the person concerned, which is in paragraph 158.
I was asked whether we were protecting too much, whether it would not be better to protect less and protect it better. There is a good deal in this, but, of course, as the Leader of the Opposition knows—I think that he raised this point first and other hon. Members on both sides followed it—this was part of the recommendations of the Radcliffe Committee of April, 1962, which, I know, the right hon. Gentleman has studied. Lord Radcliffe's Committee at that time recommended a number of ways in which the definitions of security classification could be sharpened and their use more strictly controlled, although, of course, it recognised the difficulties which existed in achieving a completely satisfactory situation. I assure the House that this has been pursued and carried out. Instructions have been given to Departments to implement these recommendations, and detailed guidance on these matters has been given.
Before I come to questions about the tribunal of inquiry procedure, I wish to make a short reference to the case of Mr. Pennells. One can understand the feeling with which my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Harrow, East (Commander Courtney) and my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon, South (Sir R. Thompson) particularly, and those who served with him at the Admiralty, speak on this matter. It should be clearly stated that the one error of judgment which is suggested against Mr. Pennells was his failure to raise with the D.N.I. the question of whether the system of selection should be reviewed. It is not in dispute that he served faithfully and efficiently for many years in the Civil Service. Nor, I think, can the House, if it considers the matter, reasonably come to the conclusion that the Tribunal could have commented in any other way. Having gone into such detail, it could scarcely have omitted the name and, if
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it had, the name would have been discovered within a very short time. Clearly, the Prime Minister, in authorising the very limited number of deletions from the full text, could not have left out the name, and in any case it would have been no protection.
What one can say to the family and the daughter of Mr. Pennells, who, I think, will be comforted by some of the things said from both sides of the House today, is that everyone who is in public life must be conscious that, if every action of his over a period of years were looked at under the microscope, it would be found that there were things he had done which he ought not to have done or things that be had left undone which he ought to have done. This must be so. Certainly, no Minister would wish to claim that, on every single file on every single day while he was in office, he took exactly the right decision.
In fact, as was pointed out by the hon. Member for Dudley—my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon, South was wrong in this—there are in paragraph 171 people named as responsible for an error of judgment. So one should emphasise once more that this is an opinion of the Tribunal. it is not possible to hear Mr. Pennell's side of the case, and this single error of judgment, if, indeed, he were guilty of it, does not affect the fact of his life of faithful service to the Crown.
Mr. Bellenger: The point of the argument was not directed to whether the Tribunal was right or wrong in singling out Mr. Pennells for not making a recommendation to the D.N.I. but it was related to what one can only call the whitewashing of others who were equally responsible or remiss.
Mr. Macleod: I do not think that those words can reasonably be attributed to people of the calibre of Lord Radcliffe, Mr. Justice Barry and Sir Edward Milner Holland.
Mr. H. Wilson: The right hon. Gentleman really has not answered the point about the Service career rating. Would he deal with the point which some of us made about why in the P.V. procedure no attempt was made to get the views of Vassall's chiefs in Moscow on the particular question of his suitability for handling secret material?
Mr. Macleod: The right hon. Gentleman has emphasised the point I was making a few moments ago, that the Tribunal did emphasise exactly this point and said that, if those mentioned in paragraph 171, which I shall not read to the House, had gone further—the right hon. Gentleman is quite right—there might have been a different result.
The Tribunals of Inquiry (Evidence) Act, 1921, has been used on sixteen occasions during the past forty-two years. Thus, it can be said that, as the Leader of the Liberal Party suggested it should be, it has been used sparingly. The Leader of the Liberal Party asked me whether everything which was before the civil servants was also before the Tribunal. The answer is "Yes, it was from the beginning."
The biggest single block of the sixteen cases were matters which concerned the police of this country. We are rightly jealous of any attacks which may be made upon the police. I think that only four can be looked on in any way as having taken place to clear, or otherwise, the conduct of Ministers. These were the 1936 Budget leakage case, the 1948 Lynskey Tribunal, the 1958 Bank Rate Tribunal and the Vassall Tribunal. Sometimes, particularly in the Vassall case, the question of security is even more important.
Mr. Wigg: This Act came into existence because the Conservative Government in 1921 were in very great difficulties. On the very first occasion it was invoked in order to protect Ministers.
Mr. Macleod: A better reason was given by my hon. Friend the Member for Norfolk, Central in his maiden speech when he said that the system of Select Committees, particularly in the Marconi case, had proved completely unsatisfactory.
Do we need such a procedure at all? The right hon. and learned Member for Newport betrayed more enthusiasm for the Act than I feel myself, but I agree with him that we do need such an Act because it is a fact that neither the laws of libel nor the criminal law would be equal to the task. Quite apart from the delays in these matters, the laws of libel are concerned only with statements
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actually published about particular individuals. They cannot, therefore, deal with gossip and cannot be used at all when allegations are made about public bodies like Government Departments. The issue of writs by the two members of the Government concerned would not have dealt with more than a minute part of the Vassall story; nor would it have dispersed more than a fraction of the public concern aroused.
Finally, the criminal law of itself is not sufficient, because there may not have been sufficient evidence for prosecution, as in the Waters case, or indeed no crime at all, as in the case of Mr. Belcher. For these reasons, I hold that even with all its difficulties it is right to have such a system, and I do not believe that a Select Committee of this House could do this as efficiently in these cases.
Two main arguments are used against the Act. The first is the procedural argument which we heard so much at the time of the Bank Rate Tribunal and at the time of the setting up of this one, but it is one we have not particularly heard today. The criticisms made after the 1958 Tribunal included suggestions that there should not be a hostile opening by the Attorney-General which was unanswered, that there should be an opportunity for counsel for individuals to make corresponding statements, that innocent people might have to pay large costs, and that it was unsatisfactory for the same counsel—the Attorney-General—to examine in chief and to cross-examine. All these matters, I think, have been largely and in most cases wholly met by the procedure.
The second argument was put very well today by the hon. Member for Coventry, East. It is that even if we accept—and some of us do not, so I will not pursue it now—that we do need some sort of tribunal like this, is it not possible for innocent people, insignificant people, ignorant people, to get caught up in this great juggernaut while we are trying to put right some rumours, malicious gossip or whatever it may be that such a tribunal in some cases is designed so well to deal with.
Here I share the hon. Gentleman's anxiety to the full. I myself by accident saw something of it during the Bank Rate Tribunal, when I was Minister of

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Labour. A member of my staff, who had been only three days in my Department and whom I had never met, said in a railway train—and I could have done without this tribute then—that he had a splendid Minister who told him everything.
By the time this story had rolled on a few stations and had passed on a few times from mouth to mouth, it had emerged greatly embellished. Fortunately, in that case it was easy to disprove. But other people are less fortunate. This is the main anxiety people have and I will consider the points about whether we should have a Select Committee or some other method to inquire into the whole procedure of Tribunals.
We are debating a Motion to "take note." I imagine that this means we shall not vote, and that is good. We take note of a number of things. We take note that the standards of security were lax in some cases and we must do everything we can to improve them. We take note of the analysis of the Press stories, but
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leave the remedy to the Press. We take note, with profound satisfaction, of the utter and complete vindication of the two Ministers. There was no fire. Indeed, there was no smoke in the stories.
We take note also that the procedure of the tribunals does come under criticism, and I think that what has been said by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister of a suggested new method at least in security cases will show that we do not intend to leave this where it is. Enough criticisms there may be, but I do not think that anyone reading this brilliantly lucid Report can come to any other conclusion but that my right hon. Friend was right in his concluding sentence when he said that truth had prevailed. We take note of that and rejoice in it.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved,
That this House takes note of the Report of the Tribunal appointed under the Tribunals of Inquiry (Evidence) Act, 1921. to inquire into the Vassall Case and Related Matters, presented on 24th April, and of the operation of the Act.

CIVIL DEFENCE (NURSING AND FIRST AID)
9.59 p.m.
The Minister of Health (Mr. J. Enoch Powell): I beg to move,
That the Civil Defence (Training in Nursing) Regulations 1963, a draft of which was laid before this House on 9th April, be approved.
Perhaps I might be taken at the same time, Mr. Speaker, to be referring to the corresponding Scottish Regulations—though I am not, of course, moving them —because their purport and reasons are precisely the same.
Mr. Speaker: If the House wishes, the discussion can extend to the next ensuing Regulations.
Mr. Powell: The purpose of the Regulations is as simple as their form. It is to add to the existing civil defence functions of local authorities the new function of giving training in home nursing and first aid. I do not think that it needs much argument to show that this is an appropriate and a desirable function for the civil defence authorities. In almost any major emergency it could not but be of great advantage that as many people as possible should have a basic knowledge of home nursing and of first aid. One can easily concede circumstances in which life would be saved and suffering would be minimised if those immediately in contact with casualties were able to put this simple basic knowledge into effect. The inclusion of this function amongst the civil defence functions of local authorities will automatically attract to any expenditure upon it the normal 75 per cent. civil defence rate of grant.
The House will notice that Regulation 3 requires the authorities, in the exercise of their functions, to comply with directions, and, in the first instance, it is proposed to direct that the local authorities should take on the training of such of their own staffs as wish to receive it, for, clearly, this is an operation that will be more usefully conducted in deliberate phases. It is to secure that that this Regulation is included.
This is not a work that has been neglected hitherto. In fact, it is within the knowledge of all hon. Members that the voluntary aid societies have done an immense amount of work and prepara-
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tion in his respect. That is in no way diminished, and it will go on by this new function that is conferred upon local authorities. I am glad to say that the voluntary aid societies themselves have assured me that they will co-operate in the organisation of these courses and in the giving of this instruction.
I am very glad to commend these Regulations to the House because, whatever may be true of other kinds of civil defence preparation, here is a type of preparation which, in deepest peacetime and in any conceivable circumstances, could not but be beneficial. All effort expended in carrying out these Regulations, all expenditure incurred in doing so, cannot but be of general advantage, quite apart from any contemplated emergency or cavil defence requirement. I therefore hope that the House will give its approval to these draft Regulations.
10.4 p.m.
Mr. Emus Hughes: I should have thought that we would have had an opportunity of discussing these Regulations separately, as this is a very big question. We have not had many opportunities in the last three years of discussing civil defence, and these proposals have been announced in a very sketchy speech.
For example, why are we being asked to undertake this work now? If the preparations for the defence of the civil population had been as they ought to have been, these Regulations would have been brought to the House a long time ago. Apparently, we have had a crisis in civil defence. The background against which these nursing Regulations must be placed is that we have had a possible emergency in which the whole of the American civil defence organisation was mobilised, and ours was not. Instead of having these very sketchy references to a possible emergency, we should a long time ago have had a full debate on the general background against which these Regulations are brought before The House.
Let us try to understand what the situation will be. We are told that
"It shall be the function of every council of a county or county borough to train persons in home nursing and first aid."
But what sort of emergency will this be?

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We are told that one hydrogen bomb, exploded over Scotland, would burn up and destroy everything within a radius of 150 miles of Glasgow, but here we are very casually informed that we must train persons in home nursing and first aid for this eventuality.
Have the Ministers realised the magnitude of the problem? Imagine Glasgow or Edinburgh, which will be in this area in which it is assumed that everything will be destroyed, having to conduct training in home nursing and first aid. Have Ministers thought of what hospitals people will go to? In the sort of emergency visualised, every hospital in the region of every big industrial centre will be wiped out. What kind of home nursing and first aid is contemplated?
I imagine the Ayrshire County Council, which is a very progressive body, putting this question to the Minister: what kind of home nursing will you organise in the event of an attempt being made to destroy the aerodrome at Prestwick? Is it home nursing against gas or against shock or is it a skeleton nursing service which tries to function in an impossible situation? Perhaps the Joint Under-Secretary of State for Scotland will tell us.
We have been told that in Scotland it is necessary to have underground shelters for certain civil services. Will the nursing be organised from these underground shelters? All these questions seem not to have occurred to the Minister. At any rate, we have had an inadequate reply to them. The local authorities will inevitably ask exactly what is meant by these Regulations. Will there be water supplies? Will the nursing services function if there are no water supplies and no sanitation? My questions are pertinent and should be answered in the debate.
Will the Minister try to visualise the effect in the county council buildings at Ayr after a hydrogen bomb has exploded over Prestwick? That is the reality with which we are faced. What will the nurses do? How will they be mobilised? Will they look for people among the smouldering ruins? Will they wish to send them to hospitals which do not exist or to hospitals in which the water supplies and sanitation have been cut off?
This is a pathetic series of regulations by a Ministry which has not envisaged
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the possibility of a hydrogen bomb falling, but which proposes to make a small effort to train people who in these days are sensible enough to know that, home nursing and first aid cannot be organised against the possibility which I have envisaged.
When we have a debate on a spy trial, the House is crowded. But when we consider what will happen to the civil population in the event of war, we find almost a conspiracy of silence in an attempt to have the whole matter relegated to the background of our consciousness.
Will the hon. Lady give us more detailed information about the position in which the nursing services will be placed in such an eventuality? There is no point in training nurses simply to attend to a few broken legs or a few scratches or other small casualties. We are asking local authorities to elaborate plans about which the Government have no conception. How will the nurses operate when half the population will be on the move in a mass evacuation?
The Minister says that the Government will bear 70 per cent. of the cost and that the local authority will pay 30 per cent. But even 30 per cent. of the cost of adequate preparations to meet a catastrophe and calamity of this kind would make local authorities bankrupt. Let us have a little reality and let some guidance be given to local authorities, who are intelligent enough to know the problems which they face.
10.16 p.m.
Mr. Cyril Bence: I do not wish to delay the House for long. I agree with some of the comments which my hon. Friend the Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Emrys Hughes) has made on the frightful chaos which will exist after a hydrogen bomb has fallen on the Clyde area or in the London connurbation, but I disagree with his view about giving grants to local authorities to train people in home nursing and to do voluntary home nursing in the ordinary course of events and not when a hydrogen bomb has fallen. I believe that such training is very desirable.
In three burghs in my constituency we have an excellent organisation known as the Women's Voluntary Service. I am proud of the fact that my wife is an

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organiser of the W.V.S. They do excellent work in the Burgh of Clydebank. It is very desirable to have more women, especially those who have brought up their families, doing voluntary work of this nature in local authorities. I believe that the majority of the work of a voluntary nature in both England and Scotland in respect of rescue work and Red Cross has been done by women. One can easily see, from the splendid displays that are put on at weekends, how women are playing their part in the ranks of those interested in civil defence.
It is a wonderful thing that women should learn nursing, first aid and how generally to help people in their own homes. In this connection, the W.V.S. meals-on-wheels scheme in Clydebank serves about 140 meals a week and in the winter their nursing training came in useful and they were able to help elderly people in their homes. The Regulations are concerned with home nursing. I applaud people being trained, not necessarily with war in mind, but with a view to helping the population generally.
Mr. Emrys Hughes: This is a civil defence matter. It has nothing to do with the W.V.S.
Mr. BenceThe W.V.S. has a section which forms part of the general civil defence scheme, just as the Red Cross plays an important part. Nobody wants war—that is, unless he is a madman—and I have nothing but admiration for people who, without necessarily having war in mind, are trained in nursing so that they can cope with the ordinary accidents that occur in our daily lives, fires in homes caused by oil heaters, and so on.
Mr. Emrys Hughes: The Regulations are concerned with civil defence and I hope that my hon. Friend will realise that they have nothing to do with ordinary accidents in the home.
Mr. Bence: I recall that not long ago a fire broke out in a home in Clydebank in which four children lost their lives. The W.V.S. are quickly able to help in road, rail and other accidents and I am saying that the more people who are able to cope under these circumstances the better. They can use their skills within
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the civil defence set-up and I hope that my hon. Friend the Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Emrys Hughes) will realise that "civil defence" has a wider connotation than that of trained nursing staff sitting round waiting for a war to begin. The civil population need looking after when there are ordinary, everyday accidents and, should war break out, their nursing knowledge will be all the more valuable.
I worked in a large motor plant for many years. There, hon. Members may be interested to know, I took a course in first aid, under a voluntary scheme. I am talking of the days before the last war, although I did not go in for that training with the coming war in mind. What I learned was extremely useful in peacetime a Id when war broke out my knowledge was equally useful. I welcome the Red Cross, the W.V.S. and local authorities creating in our midst—and this goes for factories, too—an increasing group of highly trained nursing staff. For this reason, I welcome the Regulations.
10.19 p.m.
Mr. W. B. van Straubenzee: I am glad that the hon. Member for Dunbar onshire, East (Mr. Bence) made those helpful comments. I can assure hon. Members that I intend to be even more brief than he was. The hon. Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Emrys Hughes) hinged his remarks on the phrase "civil defence," which, I agree, is the basis of these Regulations. He complained, as he has before, that we have not had an opportunity to discuss the principle behind these Regulations, With respect, the hon. Gentleman is wrong.
If the hon. Member had been in the House on St. David's day he would have been able to take part in a useful discussion on the broad principles behind these Regulations and he would have heard a most useful contribution, as always, from the hon. Member for Islington, East (Mr. Fletcher) who usually leads in this matter for the party opposite and no doubt will be speaking later tonight. He is on record as believing that civil defence was effective even in this modem age, but I will not refer further to that point because I shall be out of order. The hon. Member,

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however, must not complain if he chooses not to be present when these matters are discussed.
The logical sequence of what the hon. Member for South Ayrshire says is that one should take no precaution in the face of atomic war. We are not discussing tonight whether these weapons are right or wrong; but, whatever our view, we should agree surely that in the foreseeable future we shall live in a dangerous world, and whether or not we hold the weapons or believe that we should hold them there is, regrettably, always the possibility of their being delivered on us, whatever our policies may be.
It is, therefore, always incumbent on a Government of any party to take such reasonable precautions as they can and train people as fully as they can in case any such ghastly emergency arises. In part, this is why these Regulations are before us. I should like to emphasise all that the hon. Member for Dunbartonshire, East has said on this point. It surely must be right to encourage training, of all things, in home nursing and first-aid particularly among young people.
Mr. Emrys Hughes: Is the hon. Member not aware that the local authorities have full power under present legislation to do everything that my hon. Friend the Member for Dunbartonshire, East (Mr. Bence) has mentioned?
Mr. van Straubenzee: That is not so, with respect, and that is why the Regulations are before us. Plainly, if local authorities have full powers already, in the civil defence terms which we are now discussing, the Regulations would not be necessary. The hon. Member overlooks the fact that the very Women's Voluntary Service which we were discussing earlier bore at one time the title, "Women's Voluntary Service for Civil Defence". This is how it started. Now all of us, on both sides of the House, gladly and warmly pay tribute to the work of these voluntary workers far outside the limits and scope of civil defence. I remember as a traveller to the Far East being wholly dependent on two splendid ladies who darned for us all the way from this country to India. That had nothing to do with civil defence but we were very grateful to them.
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It should not go out from the House that we have any reservations on the wisdom of this training encouraged by local authorities both in England and Scotland. We wish to give that work a push forward tonight.
10.23 p.m.
Mr. E. Fernyhough: The hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr. van Straubenzee) is quite wrong. There is no county council or county borough in England or Scotland which does not provide evening classes which people can attend to obtain knowledge and training in first aid and various similar matters. Practically every local authority which is responsible for education runs classes of this kind, and there would be no need for these Regulations if it was merely a question of having people trained. I do not for a moment question the wisdom of training people in first aid. Obviously, when there has been a visitation by Nature of tempest, fire, or flood, their help can prevent suffering and may save life, but the matter with which these Regulations are concerned is a much more formidable affair.
I have just finished reading about the destruction of Dresden. I wonder to what extent the facilities that will be provided by these Regulations helped there. But what happened then was infinitesimal compared with what would happen in a nuclear war. Looking at the matter closely, it seems clear that if the Government believe that there will ever be an occasion when we need civil defence they should be doing far more than is provided by these Regulations.
Nine out of ten local authorities spend more money on public lavatories than on civil defence. If the Government are thinking in terms of the consequences of a nuclear war, these Regulations are pathetic and ridiculous. An American general has just said that if the circumstances which the Regulations envisage were to come about, 750 million people would die. Does the right hon. Gentleman think that, if that sort of catastrophe overtook the West, Regulations of this kind would have any effect? In my view the Government do not believe that there is any defence against this sort of thing. They have told us that it is the great deterrent—
Mr. Speaker: Deterrent or not; expenditure on public lavatories or not—the question is whether we should make

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it a function of local authority, under the relevant Statute, to provide this kind of training in nursing and first aid.
Mr. Fernyhough: I agree, Mr. Speaker. I do not contest your Ruling for a second. All that I am seeking to point out is that these Regulations do not go far enough. They should be far wider in scope if they are to do the job which the Government require of them.
We should not be talking of the Regulations if it were not for the terrible thing that is hanging over our lives. These Regulations ought to meet the situation to which I am referring. If it were not for the fear and danger which exists the right hon. Gentleman would not be introducing them. I am merely pointing out that if that fear were to materialise it would bring about a situation very much more difficult to cope with than anything which these Regulations visualise. They do not go half far enough.
If the Government believe that a catastrophe of this nature might overtake us, and that the deterrent will not deter, instead of bringing in pettifogging regulations of this kind they ought to embark on a great scheme of civil defence, including the building of shelters and all the other things that will be required. If they did that they would be making some sense.
10.28 p.m.
Mr. Eric Fletcher: I welcome the introduction of these Regulations. As other hon. Members have said, nobody can foresee with any precision what the circumstances would be if a catastrophe of the kind envisaged were ever to occur in this country. It is relevant to observe that the catastrophe might be such as to make all the civil precautions in the world of no avail to save one human life. It is for that reason that we all profoundly hope that the wisdom of statesmen in all countries will avoid any such catastrophe.
Nevertheless, it seems to me that it must be right for the Government, with the support of this House, to take al/ such reasonable measures as can be taken, because there might, of course, be a catastrophe less than a total catastrophe. We might, perhaps, be involved in a war which is not a nuclear war, and circumstances might arise even in a
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nuclear war in which the fact that a large number of people had had the forethought to take some training in home nursing and first aid or other civil defence measures would be of benefit both to themselves and others. It is for those reasons that I welcome these Regulations.
I would merely add two things. I was a little surprised—I think my hon. Friend was, too—to find that in fact such Regulations were necessary, because I also should have thought that local authorities already, under their general powers, if not their educational powers, had the necessary authority to conduct trailing courses of this kind.
I should like to ask the Minister to amplify something of what he said with regard to paragraph 3. Is the House to understand that the Minister is going to give directions from time to time to local authorities as to how they are to exercise their functions under these Regulations? If so, will he please be good enough to say whether he will always publish those directions so that they are known to Members of this House and to the public? Secondly, will he say whether we are right in thinking that because of paragraph 3 local authorities can only discharge the functions in the manner which the Minister directs? Of are they free, in addition to observing the directions from the Minister, of their own volition to carry out any additional training schemes, or to extend the purposes of their training over and beyond the Regulations contained in the Minister's directions?
Finally, I would say I am sure that the introduction of Regulations of this kind must do a great deal to encourage and hearten and support the large number of voluntary organisations throughout the country which are already devoting so much of their time and energy to civil defence work.
10.32 p.m.
Mr. Powell: With the leave of the House, I should like to reply. I felt that the hon. Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Emrys Hughes), and to some extent the lion. Member for Jarrow (Mr. Fernyhough), were very effectively answered by the hon. Member for Dunbartonshire, East (Mr. Bence) and my hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham (Mr. van Srraubenzee). The simple

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answer is that short of the absolute extinction of all human life it is hardly possible to conceive circumstances in which knowledge of home nursing and first aid would not be beneficial in relieving pain and, perhaps, in saving life, and that remains true whatever other civil defence preparations are made. We are tonight discussing only this particular civil defence preparation. It is valid whatever other medical preparations are made. It is valid whatever be the nature of the attack and whatever be the extent of the casualties, for this simple but valuable information will be applicable to the main forms of human injury and the methods of coping with them as well as may be in primitive or different conditions. So that is the answer to all the queries of the hon. Member for South Ayrshire.
Mr. Emrys Hughes: The right hon. Gentleman comes here with Regulations presumably involving Government expenditure. Has he any estimate of the expenditure which is likely to he incurred?
Mr. Powell: I think that this will emerge as this develops stage by stage and I was going to deal with that in answering the point made by the hon. Member for Islington, East (Mr. Fletcher). Both he and the hon. Member for Jarrow asked whether this was not duplicating the existing power of local authorities. It is true that under their further education powers local authorities have the power to run courses of this kind, but that is not what we are doing here. We are here making this a function of local authorities to carry out this training which will indeed be their duty in accordance with the directions under Regulation No. 3. Moreover, we are here providing for them in the fulfilment of that duty a higher grant than would accrue under the further education provisions.
The hon. Member for Islington, East asked about the directions to which Regulation No. 3 refers. Regulation No. 2 leaves this function quite at large, and it is therefore necessary, if it is to be exercised by stages, that, short of the most elaborate prescription, one should be able to move from stage to stage on the basis of directions. These will be given the same publicity as any other
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circular to local authorities—they will be in the form of a circular—and will be public documents in the same way.
The exercise of the functions will have to be in conformity with the directions which will be given from time to time under these Regulations, but, as with the first directions, so I am sure with any subsequent ones, their content would be worked out in full consultation and agreement with the local authorities. The object of Regulation No. 3 is to enable this work to develop in an orderly and rational way and is one which has the support and agreement of the local authorities themselves.
10.37 p.m.
Mr. Archie Manuel: I think that we still want some questions answered by the Minister responsible for the implementation of these Regulations in Scotland. Certain local authority expense comes into this question, and many of our Scottish local authorities are already weighted down with a great deal of expenditure. I am thinking particularly of those areas with a high level of unemployment where rent rebate schemes and other methods of assisting people are in operation.
I am not against people being trained in home nursing and first aid, but as my hon. Friend the Member for Jarrow (Mr. Fernyhough) said, people particularly interested in this form of training can obtain it through further education classes. We are particularly fortunate in Scotland in that many first-aid classes are run by railway employees. Some of these men devote most of their spare time to training people connected with the railways, and also those outside them, in first aid. They attend many functions and render their services free of charge to many organisations.
We are keen to provide training in home nursing and first aid, but I think we should recognise that Regulation No. 3 is taking a step which has not hitherto been taken in that it provides that local authorities must comply with directions given by the Secretary of State. They will have to set up classes and devote certain buildings to this purpose.
The Minister of Health made clear that this would be a direction to local authorities. I am quite willing to allow him

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to direct English local authorities however he likes, but I hope that it is not his influence which is to be extended over the Border.
Mr. Emrys Hughes: My hon. Friend and I have been members of a local authority which has faced these problems for many years. Is it not likely that, when the Ayrshire County Council gets this direction, its first question will be, "What is it to cost?"
Mr. Manuel: That is the very point that I am on. Perhaps I am embroidering it a little, but my hon. Friend must surely realise that that is the point of what I am saying. If this is to mean a further increase in rate-borne burdens, it will be very unfair. If it is to be a direction to the local authorities, there should be a 100 per cent. grant. I have no doubt about that at all. The Minister will say that it is to be 75 per cent. or something like that. When he speaks of a bigger share of the cost than usual being borne by the central Government, what does he mean? Twenty-five per cent. would still be a considerable sum to be borne by the local authorities.
If this is to be a direction, every town and village will have to institute classes in nursing and first aid. Public halls, school buildings and the like will have to be used two or three nights a week, heating will often be needed, and the expense will be by no means small.
As I have said, there is a fair amount of this training going on now. Some of my personal friends devote all their spare time, unpaid, to first aid. In Scotland, the classes run by railway employees come under the auspices of the St. Andrew's Ambulance Association. When I worked for a time in London, I found that the railway classes here and in England generally were run by the St. John's organisation. I have attended both. It would be fairly easy to recruit railwaymen who could undertake these classes very competently.
I want an assurance from the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland that she agrees with me that, if a direction is to go to the local authorities to do this job, there ought to be a 100 per cent, grant towards any on-cost occasioned thereby.
10.45 p.m.
The Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Lady Tweedsmuir): The hon.
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Member for Central Ayrshire (Mr. Manuel) asked whether the grants should not be 100 per cent. instead of 75 per cent. particularly in areas of unemployment. The normal rate for civil defence measures arid for the training of the Civil Defence Corps is 75 per cent. I quite agree with him in welcoming the great deal of valuable work done by such bodies as tie St. Andrew's Ambulance Association. I was lucky enough to have a full course with the British Red Cross Society and I assure him that these courses are very much wider in their content than the present limited training proposed in these Regulations.
Therefore, if the local authorities pay the expenses in the first place and the Government reimburse 75 per cent. of the expenditure, it is estimated that in Scotland the total expenditure by the Government will be about £3,000 annually.
Mr. Emrys Hughes: How much?
Lady Tweedsmuh: About £3,000 annually. That is just the point for the hon. Member. It will be reckoned by those good.it arithmetic that the local authorities will contribute only about £1,000.
Mr. Emrys Hughes: Does the hon. Lady imagine a situation following an air raid in which tremendous damage is caused to the whole country with the paltry sum cf £3,000 to be given by the Government?
Lady Tweedsmuir: As was made clear by my right hon. Friend, this is a preliminary scheme. There is no immediate intention of using the power of direction in Scotland conferred on the Secretary of State by Regulation No. 3. However after the experimental stage is over, and experience has shown us which are the best ways in which training courses can be administered, it might very welt be the time to issue general directions to local authorities, as is provided for in Regulation No. 3.
I am very glad that on the whole these Regulations have been welcomed by the House, particularly those applying to Scotland, because what we are trying to do is to make as many people as possible self-reliant.
Mr. Fernyhough: Has the hon. Lady any guide as to the numbers it is envisaged will be trained at the cost of £3,000?
Lady Tweedsmuir: No, not initially, because we are not making the local authorities comply with this direction. I must remind the hon. Gentleman in any case that I am referring only to Scotland. We cannot say bow many people there will be trained, but the Scottish local authority associations have declared themselves generally in favour of this Measure.
10.49 p.m.
Mr. William Ross: Various words and phrases have been used to describe these Regulations and our attitude towards them. "Welcome them" is the wrong phrase. I think that the House will approve them but we do not welcome them, because they are a reminder of the constant danger that hangs over not just Britain but the world. We may deplore the necessity of presenting them yet approve them.
If the right hon. Gentleman had come to us with any pretence that with this Measure we could adequately deal with the dangers that would follow the dropping of an H-bomb, the House just would not have believed him. If he had said that, there would have been a lot more reliance on what was said by my hon. Friend the Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Emrys Hughes).
I have no doubt that this is a justified token first phase. No one will object to it. I do not think we can ignore the fact that even if the worst came to the worst life would probably still persist
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somewhere and that help might well be needed.
My hon. Friend the Member for Jarrow (Mr. Fernyhough) talked about the Dresden raid. Sitting beside him is a man who represents the most bombed part of Scotland—Clydebank. In the war, when I was in the Highland Light Infantry, we did our route marches and exercises round there and the people gave us food and help. Then we went to the same place to act as emergency first aid teams. I am certain that there were people on those nights who wished that they had had the training and the ability to play a part in the relief of suffering.
In the circumstances we should be completely wrong not to pass the Regulations, but at the same time we should in no way relax our efforts to ensure that it will never be necessary to use them in the circumstances envisaged by my hon. Friend. Nevertheless, they will be useful in respect of civil calamities which might follow in the ordinary course of events.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved,
That the Civil Defence (Training in Nursing) Regulations, 1963, a draft of which was laid before this House on 9th April, be approved.
Civil Defence (Training in Nursing) (Scotland) Regulations, 1963 [draft laid before the House, 9th April], approved.—[Lady Tweedsmuir.]

ORDERS OF THE DAY

  LOCAL EMPLOYMENT [MONEY]
  Resolution reported,
  That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to make further provision for the payment of grants under the Local Employment Act 1960 towards the cost of machinery, plant and buildings required by undertakings in development districts, it is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of any expenses incurred by the Board of Trade under or by virtue of any provision of the said Act of the present Session—

  (a) authorising the payment of grants towards expenditure incurred on or after 3rd April 1963 in equipping with machinery or plant industrial undertakings in development districts within the meaning of the said Act of 1960, being grants of an amount equal to 10 per cent. of the cost of acquiring and installing the machinery or plant;

  (b) directing that the amount of any grant to be made under section 3 of the said Act of 1960 (building grants) shall be 25 per cent of the expenditure incurred in providing a building or extension of a building, except in the case of applications in respect of which a grant under that section was offered before 3rd April 1963, and extending for the purposes of that section and of the said Act of the present Session the references to buildings and the provision of buildings;

  (c) enabling the Board to exercise their powers under sections 2 and 5 of the said Act of 1960 in relation to land in a locality which has at any time ceased to be a development district so far as may be necessary for the purpose of fulfilling any agreement entered into by the Board before that time;

  and the payment into the Exchequer of any receipts of the Board under or by virtue of the said Act of the present Session.
  Resolution agreed to.

  NEW INDUSTRIES, FALMOUTH AND CAMBORNE
  Motion made and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. F. Pearson.]
  10.51 p.m.
  Mr. F. H. Hayman: I rise to make a speech about the need for new industries in my constituency of Falmouth and Camborne in Cornwall. I have rather a lot to say and I may have to speak rather quickly.
  In my constituency we suffered from severe unemployment between the wars
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  and even before that, and now the whole of the constituency is a development district under the Local Employment Act. I welcome the Local Employment Bill, now before the House, as a step to improve the worsening conditions in many of the development districts, and I welcome the Contracts of Employment Bill as an attempt to soften the harshness of the "hire-and-fire" aspects of industry, particularly ship repairing, which is the chief industry in Falmouth, employing about 2,200 men.
  This industry subsists on casual labour, even though most of the men are very highly skilled in many specialised crafts. I will give an example. The men can be given notice within an hour to terminate their work at 4 p.m. They may be off work for weeks and then one evening get a telegram 'telling them that they are wanted next day. They go back the next morning, and by 4 p.m. they can be "fired" again. I hope that the Contracts of Employment Bill will do something to humanise this very harsh practee, and that the employers will do all that they can to facilitate it because it has harmful results not only for the man., but for his wife and family.
  Last year, Falmouth had an average of 8 per cent. unemployment—throughout the year ended 31st March last. Of 71 development districts in Great Britain, Falmouth was the third highest in numbers of unemployed—799. The shipyard workers represent one-fifth of the insured working population in the Falmouth employment district; so the extent of unemployment among them could well have represented 25 per cent. over the year. At one point last November two-thirds of the whole labour force in the shipyard were unemployed.
  A study of the figures issued by Ministers reveals that there has been a fall of 500 in the number of insured workers in Falmouth since 1956; and more than 300 in Camborne-Redruth. This means that in the whole of my constituency there has been a drop of more than 800 in the total labour force. I am sure that hon. Members will agree that it is a tragedy that so many skilled workers have left the county and that so many more have turned to unskilled work in an effort to keep their homes and families intact.
  Cornwall is the only county in England with a declining population.

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  Many of our young people who have passed through the excellent technical colleges in my constituency cannot find work in their native county. The steady erosion of new recruits for industry and other services in Cornwall is a tragedy. This is all despite the fact that Falmouth shipyard possesses a fine, modern dry dock which is capable of taking vessels of up to 80,000 tons—something which even Belfast does not have. The owners, Messrs. Silley Cox & Co. Ltd., are trying to get some non-marine work, and I hope that the Board of Trade will assist in their endeavour.
  On 17th April last there was a conference of councillors and representative bodies in Falmouth convened by the mayor, Miss Frost, at which the whole question was discussed for some hours. At the close of the conference a resolution was passed pleading with the Government to arrange for British ships to be repaired in British yards and not sent to continental ones. Those attending the conference viewed the present situation with considerable alarm.
  Local authorities incur huge debt liabilities to provide housing, hospitals, schools, roads, sewerage, and so on. The county council has a loan debt of about £6 million and the local authorities as a whole in my constituency have loan debts of £7 million or more. Industry depends on the provision of these essential items of community life by the community itself. The community can never escape these liabilities in the way industrial enterprises can and sometimes do.
  Until now the Board of Trade has not channelled a single new industry to the Falmouth—Penryn area. Falmouth has secured its first industrial site, which has still to be developed, and at Penryn a site suitable for light industries exists. I have written to the President of the Board of Trade about a project for building catamarrans in Falmouth and my constituents are waiting anxiously for the decision of the Board's Advisory Committee. We hope that it will be able to support this far seeing project. There are other boat building yards in Falmouth which do excellent work.
  Falmouth arid its hinterland is an excellent tourist centre. Apart from the wonderful climate and scenery, the sailing and yachting is superb. Proposals
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  have been made to the Board for developing Falmouth as a commercial port. How far that is possible I am not sure, but I hope the proposals will receive serious consideration by the Board.
  Camborne—Redruth is the largest urban district in Cornwall with a population of over 35,000. It was one of the earliest industrial areas in Great Britain. We have produced many notable inventors, including Richard Trevithick, one of the greatest engineers that Britain has ever produced. The average rate of unemployment during the year ended. 31st March last was 5·3 per cent.
  Camborne-Redruth was far-seeing in the acquisition of industrial sites and provided its first site before the war ended. The total cost of developing its latest site will be about £200,000 I understand. Towards this sum, some substantial Government grants have been received and it is hoped that the Government will be generous towards the later instalments of this large project. We are very grateful for what we have received already, although the greater burden falls on the urban district. The whole estate is a fine asset of which we can all be proud.
  Our workers have shown great adaptability in training and adjusting themselves to the skills and techniques required for the new industries which have come to us in the post-war years. Recently, Tecalemit (Engineering) Ltd., a firm which, we thought, would, in the not distant future, employ 250 men, informed us 10 days ago that it was unable to occupy the fine new factory which had been built for it by the Board of Trade. The decision of the firm not to occupy it has come as a great shock to us all—not least to the skilled men attracted by the firm for training in its special processes in a pilot plant. Although they have been offered jobs at Plymouth, one can readily appreciate their reluctance to entrust their lives, homes and families to further promises by the firm. We appreciate there may be delicate financial adjustments to be made between the Government and the firm, and I do not ask for details tonight. Nevertheless, we hope the public purse will be properly safeguarded.
  Last year, I. C. I. withdrew from my constituency where, a few years before,

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  they had employed 500 workers at Cam-borne and at Ponsanooth. The firm which they had taken over about thirty years ago had started in the district over 130 years before. It is interesting to note that Dr. Beeching was a director of I.C.I. at the time the decision was taken.
  The Beeching Report on the railways has caused consternation in Cornwall. Hayle station, in my constituency, is one of those to be closed. Hayle has a population of about 5,000 and depends on the tourist industry to a large extent. I will send to the Parliamentary Secretary a detailed letter from the secretary of the Camborne Chamber of Commerce about the implications of closing all stations in my constituency to parcels traffic. I hope he will study it carefully and take up with Dr. Beeching the points made in the letter, because my constituency is the most industrialised area of Cornwall.
  To withdraw these railway facilities from a whole development district seems to me very serious. Indeed, it is regarded as such by the whole county. The chairman of the county council called a conference about the Beeching Report which took place on Maundy Thursday—a conference attended by Over 100 people from all parts of the county.
  There are signs of a mining revival so far as the production of tin is concerned. We are glad that some of the disused mines in Camborne and Redruth are being or are about to be reopened, and we hope that the same will apply in the Kerrier rural district, part of which is in my constituency. We hope that the Board of Trade will do all it can to assist these enterprises. There are also the granite quarries in the middle and southern parts of my constituency which have produced granite for Westminster Bridge and for the Embankment near the Festival Hall. The granite industry has had hard times of late years, but there seems to be an improvement in other parts of the county and we hope that the Board of Trade will do what it can to rescussitate work in the granite quarries of the constituency. There are also great resources of non-potable water available in old mines which have been flooded. These supplies can be attractive to some kinds of industry. One Government Department has already made great use of it.
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  A conference was held at Truro on 1st March, convened by Camborne Urban District Council and attended by delegates from all parts of the county, at which alarm was expressed at the growing unemployment in the county and particularly in my constituency. I should like to pay tribute to the county planning committee for what it has done to try to secure new industries for Cornwall and also pay tribute to the great skill and adaptability of Cornish workers, both men and women.
  I would remind the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade that it was said recently that 750,000 new jobs were created in the London region between 1951 and 1961, or nearly half of the new jobs in the whole of Great Britain. I hope that Cornwall will not be forgotten and that my constituency will have a fair share of Government Departments in any redistribution of Departments which might take place, and a fair share of Government contracts. I hope that I have shown how much my constituency needs and deserves new industries. I hope, too, that my speech will bear fruit. The whole of my constituency is a development district with 25,000 workers, to each one of whom should be accorded full human dignity.
  11.8 p.m.
  Mr. G. R. Howard: In following in the debate the hon. Member for Camborne and Falmouth (Mr. Hayman), I should like, first, to thank my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade for his visit to Co wall recently. He came to my constituency and saw many people. I think that they were impressed by his sympathetic hearing of the various cases which they put to him.
  On the question of a mining revival, we are grateful to the Government for what they have done in the Finance Bill to help the mining industry. We hope that as a result this important industry will be given a further impetus in Cornwall and that people will correct the wrong impression which they have at the moment that the present Government do rot want further mining interests to be developed in Cornwall. This is wrong. They do, and I hope that through the help given in the Budget this will be shown to be so.

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  We must realise that if industry is to come to Cornwall we must get the transport situation right. It must be understood that there is adequate transport. If a new Beeching is to deal with the roads, I hope that he will be in co-operation with the Beeching of the railways and not against him. Transport must be treated as an integrated system, and where branch railway lines are closed adequate road transport must be provided in lieu of them. Industries cannot be attracted to places like Cornwall unless there are adequate facilities to serve their needs.
  The hon. Gentleman mentioned the very vast efforts made in Falmouth by certain new firms and others who are doing extremely well with export orders as well in this industry. I am disappointed that D.A.T.A.C. has not helped them more. I have spoken about my hon. Friend's visit and how grateful we are to him for coming, and I would finish by saying that I hope he will impress upon the Government the fact that we should be considered as a special area and should be granted the concessions announced by the Chancellor during the Budget debate, because this would be of great help to us, and that he will be able to say something about this in his reply.
  Mr. Geoffrey Wilson: I want to add only a word or two to what has been said. I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for St. Ives (Mr. G. R. Howard) that communications are really the answer to this matter. We want not only better railways, but better ports, air services and roads.
  11.12 p.m.
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade (Mr. David Price): No one in my position as Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade could possibly quarrel with the hon. Member for Falmouth and Camborne (Mr. Hayman) for raising the need for new industries in Falmouth and Camborne, supported by other Cornish hon. Members on the case for Cornwall generally, on the Adjournment. I am sure that the whole House was impressed by the informed manner in which the hon. Gentleman presented his case. I think that it was the more impressive for the support which he got from my hon.
  396
  Friend the Member for St. Ives (Mr. G. R. Howard) and, in a brief intervention, from my hon. Friend the Member for Truro (Mr. G. Wilson).
  We in the Board of Trade agree entirely that there is a need for more industry in Falmouth and Camborne, as there is in Cornwall generally. I hope that this short debate will have the effect of bringing to the notice of industrialists the possibility of establishing new factories in Cornwall. It is sometimes forgotten that Cornwall, as well as being a famous holiday centre, has a long industrial tradition, as the hon. Gentleman reminded the House when he last raised this question on 1st February, 1961.
  To get the measure of the problem, it might be helpful if I were to give the House the latest unemployment figures for the hon. Gentleman's constituency. In April, 1963, in the Camborne-Redruth group, the figure of wholly unemployed was 796 or 5·4 per cent. of the insured population. Within three people that is exactly what the figure was a year previously. In Falmouth, the figure was 353 or 3·5 per cent., which was substantially lower than in the previous April.
  I think that the House will agree with me that one does not get a fair picture by just taking one month's figures. It is far better to look at the running average. It is the trend that matters. The hon. Gentleman will be interested to know that the average of wholly unemployed for Camborne and Redruth for the last twelve months was 783, that is, 5·3 per cent. of the population, and for Falmouth it was 780, or 7·8 per cent.
  I think that we can take some comfort from the fact that neither in Falmouth nor in Camborne-Redruth has the rate of unemployment increased since last year in accordance with the general trend in the country as a whole. Nevertheless, it is still too high. The House will have-noted from the figures I have quoted that unemployment in the CamborneRedruth group does not fluctuate widely, although there is a seasonal decline in the summer.
  On the other hand, unemployment in Falmouth is subject to very wide fluctuations both according to the season, since it is a holiday centre, and according to the fortunes of Silley Cox, the famous Falmouth ship repairers and shipbuilders.

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  The level of unemployment in Falmouth in April of this year was very much lower than for April last year. This is due to the fact that Silley Cox were working at a high level of employment when the April count was taken, but some of the men in the shipyard have been laid off since. I will say more about the prospects of ship repairing in Falmouth in a moment.
  What are the Government doing to encourage new industry to go to Camborne —Redruth and 'Falmouth—indeed. to all the Cornish development districts? And what are the prospects of success? As the House will know, both Falmouth, and Camborne and Redruth, are listed as development districts under the Local Employment Act, and a large part of the county is so listed. This means that new and expanding firms are eligible for all the benefits available under the Local Employment Act, 1960, and, in answer more particularly to my hon. Friend, the new standard benefits under the Local Employment Bill—an Act, we hope, soon, when it has passed all its stages in Parliament.
  All firms in the Falmouth and Camborne—Redruth areas are also eligible for the tax concessions announced by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer in his Budget, and, of particular relevance to Camborne, also the capital allowance in respect of mining in development districts which is covered in Section 39 of the Finance Bill to which the House gave a Second Reading yesterday. Taken together, these constitute very considerable added inducements to industrialists to site their expansions in development districts, and, I hope, particularly in Cornwall.
  Last autumn, as my hon. Friend the Member for St. Ives was kind enough to remind the House, I took the opportunity to visit Cornwall and spoke to local authorities about their plans to attract new industry to the county. Although Cornwall has an obvious disadvantage which all hon. Members have referred to of being a fair way from the main centres of industry and population, it has a number of important attractions which, for the right kind of industry, should more than offset the disadvantage of distance.
  Let me suggest some of them. First, available labour; second, a most agree-
  398
  able climate; third, delightful country in which to live. This is not unimportant when one is having to move key workers. Then, it has good social amenities and unlimited opportunities for outdoor recreation; a competent and helpful county council, well supported by the subordinate local authorities, only too anxious to help the immigrant industrialist; and, as has been mentioned, good educational facilities.
  When I was in Cornwall I was particularly impressed by the desire of local authorities to help themselves and also by the evidence which I received from firms which had moved to Cornwall of the big welcome which they had received from everybody on moving to Cornwall. I again emphasise how important it is for a development district to give a good reception and a helpful reception to the industrialist when he is making inquiries, because it is very rare that he goes just to one place. He looks round in many places and makes his choice on the margin—because a local authority has helped him to meet the local water board and the electricity board, and so on, so that he feels, "This is the sort of place where I can settle down, and be happy, and where they want me as a neighbour."
  I turn to the specific prospects in Camborne and Redruth, and Falmouth respectively. Camborne and Redruth have suffered a serious disappointment in the decision of Tecalemit not to take over the new factory built for it by the Board of Trade. May I say it has been equally a big disappointment to me? I can assure the hon. Member that the reason for Tecalemit's decision has been strictly commercial, namely, that it no longer needs a new factory anywhere in Britain at the present time. It was not the result of any dissatisfaction with the factory or with the location. The factory, which is a new and highly adaptable one, of some 30,000 sq. ft., is, therefore, now available, and we in the Board of Trade are doing all we can to see that it is taken over by a suitable firm. I can tell the House that we have already shown it to several firms, although I think that it is a little too soon to expect a firm bid.
  The abandonment of this project means that there are at present fewer industrial jobs in prospect in Camborne than we had hoped until recently. Nevertheless,

  399
  there are other new developments going ahead in this area where the assistance we have already offered under the Local Employment Act, excluding offers declined and excluding the value of the Tecalemit factory, totals nearly £57,000. The number of additional jobs which we expect to accrue for projects at present known to us is between 400 and 500, which is a substantial number in relation to the number of workers wholly unemployed at present, which, as I said, is 793.
  The fortunes of Falmouth are closely linked with ship repairing and, as I said earlier, some workers in the yards have been laid off since the April count, but I understand that the position is likely to improve in the short run with new work coming in. We must expect that the fluctuations of activity in ship repairing to make it inevitable that there must be some degree of fluctuation in the unemployment rate in Falmouth, apart of course from the seasonal variations in the holiday trade.
  The rota system of employment for the dockyard workers ensures, however, that they all get some work during the year, with a reasonable level of average weekly earnings. To some extent these dockyard workers who register as wholly unemployed when no work is available for them are in the same position as workers temporarily stopped in other industries, hence we cannot assume that they would all necessarily wish to take regular factory jobs as an alternative if it were available to them, and I think
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  that the hon. Gentleman appreciates that this doubt must lie in the minds of industrialists when they look at Falmouth.
  At the same time, the hon. Gentleman will recognise that neither Falmouth nor Camborne is suitable for the very large and dramatic industrial project like a motor car factory. It is on the smaller ventures that our hopes must rest. Furthermore, given the character of Cornwall, it would be unreasonable to look to manufacturing industry alone as the sole source of new jobs. While Falmouth has not yet succeeded in attracting new industry on any large scale, I was interested to see that a new type of catamaran is to be built that will provide some male employment. We have granted an I.D.C. and the application for financial help is going through the normal procedure.
  The hon. Gentleman mentioned granite mining. I understand that this industry will be eligible for the depreciation allowances under Clause 39 of the Finance Bill if the House approves it.
  I note that the hon. Gentleman recently asked my hon. Friend the Financial Secretary to consider steering the Board of Trade to Falmouth as an alternative to new industry.
  The Question having been proposed after Ten o'clock, and the debate having continued for half an hour, Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
  Adjourned at twenty-two minutes past Eleven o'clock.

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Preamble
The House met at half-past two of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of St. Edmundsbury and Ipswich

COURT-MARTIAL OF MAJOR P. R. CORY
2.35 p.m.
LORD RUSSELL OF LIVERPOOL: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether their attention has been called to the judgment of the Courts-Martial Appeal Court allowing the appeal of former Major Peter Ralph Cory against his conviction by court-martial in November 1961 of five offences of fraudulent misapplication of funds: whether, having regard to the Court's description of the trial as "astonishing", and its severe criticism of the conduct of the military authorities before, during, and since the trial, and the long delay between trial and appeal, Her Majesty's Government will ensure that a Court of Inquiry is convened by the Army Council to investigate and report on all these matters: meanwhile, will Her Majesty's Government take immediate steps to reinstate Major Cory in his rank and seniority in his Corps, and grant him adequate financial compensation for the months which he has served in Wormwood Scrubs owing to this serious miscarriage of justice?]
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (LORD DILHORNE): My Lords, the answer to the first part of the noble Lord's Question is, Yes. With regard to the second part, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for War and I have already instituted a searching investigation into every respect of the case, and the investigation has already started. With regard to the third part of the Question, Major Cory has been reinstated in his rank and seniority in the Corps. He has received his full pay and allowances, and the War
546
Office and Major Cory's solicitors are in correspondence with regard to compensation.
LORD RUSSELL OF LIVERPOOL: My Lords, I should like to thank the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack for his reply to my Question. I would also ask him if he can tell us whether the Court of Inquiry will investigate, among other matters, why Major Cory's request for certain papers to be given to him which were essential for his defence at the trial was not granted.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I did not say that a Court of Inquiry was being appointed: I said my right honourable friend and I were causing an investigation to be made. Certainly the matter relating to the papers will be a matter which will be the subject of investigation.
LORD RUSSELL OF LIVERPOOL: May I also ask whether the following matter will be included in the investigation? Having regard to the fact that the Courts-Martial Appeal Court described the trial as "astonishing", will some inquiry be made as to why the Judge Advocate General had previously advised the Army Council that Major Cory's petition against his conviction should be dismissed?
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, that is one of the matters which will be investigated, along with many other matters.
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, would the noble and learned Lord consider publishing the results of his inquiry in view of the really grave public concern in this case and the anxiety caused to us all regarding the way in which these courts-martial are conducted? Would he perhaps agree that it would be in the public interest for his findings to be published?
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I was certainly intending, as indeed was my right honourable friend, to report when the investigation was complete. The precise form which that report would follow, I would rather leave over for the time being. I would say that the investigation is likely to take a considerable time. There are a large number of documents which have to be looked at, including a very long shorthand note, and

547
indeed some of the investigations have to take place in East Africa. But the matter is being pressed on with as speedily as possible, and, in due course, I will report and my right honourable friend will report; but I would rather leave over the precise form of that report for the time being.
LORD KILLEARN: My Lords, does the noble and learned Lord appreciate how the facts revealed in this Question have appealed to the sense of justice of the whole House, and how relieved people have been that, on the facts as apparently so far proved, something is being done in the interests of justice? Finlly, as we are defenders of the rights of the individual, I hope the suggestion that these papers be published will be met.

AGRICULTURAL IMPORTS FROM EUROPE
2.39 p.m.
LORD WISE: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether negotiations are taking place with Denmark and other European countries regarding alterations in terms of the importation of agricultural products into this country, and if so, can definite assurances be given to British and Commonwealth farmers that no agreements for increased imports or otherwise will be entered into which could be detrimental to their interests as agricultural producers.]
THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD (LORD ST. OSWALD): My Lords, as my right honourable friend said on February 27, EFTA Ministers, at their Geneva meeting on February 18 and 19, instructed the Permanent Representatives to prepare a detailed programme for the speedier elimination of the remaining tariffs on industrial goods. Trade in agricultural goods was also to be discussed. The bilateral talks with the Danes and others have been held in this context, as a preliminary to decisions by Ministers in Lisbon. In the discussions at Lisbon,
548
United Kingdom Ministers will have very much in mind the need to maintain a proper balance between home-grown and imported food supplies, including those from the Commonwealth, with fair opportunities for our own farmers and consideration for the interests of consumers.
LORD WISE: My Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for that Answer, may I ask him whether, before any decision is arrived at, full consultation will take place with the Commonwealth producers, as well as our home producers? Because we are very scared that some arrangements will be made which may be detrimental to the interests of home farmers and those in the Commonwealth, to the advantage of the European countries.
LORD ST. OSWALD: My Lords, until we know what course the negotiations in Lisbon are going to take, I do not think I can give the noble Lord that assurance.
EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, may I press this matter? This, surely, is of vast importance to all the farmers in this country, as well as to the consumers. If I am right in gathering from that answer that the Government feel they are entitled to go into the EFTA Conference and enter into commitments in advance of further consultations with the Commonwealth and with home producers, I think it would be disastrous.
LORD ST. OSWALD: I do not know whether the noble Earl and his noble friend are referring to ratification or to a point of agreement which might be reached in Lisbon. Ratification is a very different thing, naturally, from a point of agreement among the EFTA countries.
EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: But, surely, that is rather burking the issue. It is no good making agreements with each of these countries and then proceeding to ratification afterwards. Surely, before agreements are finalised between the countries concerned in Europe and the Government, the question whether there is an agreement or not ought first to be discussed with Commonwealth producers and with the home producers as well. I am very dissatisfied with the answer which the noble Lord has given.
LORD ST. OSWALD: In my original Answer I have already given an assurance that the interests of the Commonwealth nations would be taken into account; and, naturally, this Government always have the interests of Commonwealth trade very much at heart as well as in mind.
EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: May I ask, then, whether the Government will give a pledge now that there will be no increase in quotas or the grant of more preferential terms to EFTA countries before they have taken into consideration the position of the Commonwealth and the home producers, and especially that there will be no restriction on output in this country where the farmers have made such an enormous contribution to our balance of payments?
LORD ST. OSWALD: I have already said that all those interests would be taken into account in the negotiations.
THE EARL OF SANDWICH: My Lords, will the Treasury, acting on behalf of the taxpayers, also be consulted before the Lisbon meeting? Every time tariff reductions take place in these negotiations with EFTA or any other group of countries, the price of food falls and the amount of deficiency payments grant greatly increases.
LORD ST. OSWALD: These negotiations have just begun. Noble Lords with experience of this type of negotiations will realise that it is unwise and quite aside from all practice to discuss negotiations before they are concluded. I think I must stop on that point.
LORD WALSTON: My Lords, would the noble Lord not agree that the timetable in this is, in fact, entirely the wrong way round and that it would have been easier for his own Department and better for the country if the negotiations had first gone very much farther with our own farming interests; secondly, been held with Commonwealth interests, and, finally, with EFTA, rather than the other way round?
LORD ST. OSWALD: That is a matter of opinion, my Lords, but we have already said that all interests will be borne in mind during the course of these negotiations and subsequent negotiations with other interested parties.
EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, with regard to the question which was put by the noble Earl, Lord Sandwich, may I ask this? Is it not a fact that the high cost to the taxpayer at the present time is due to two things? First, there are no adequate controls in operation with regard to these prices because the Government took them off twelve years ago. Second, no proper steps have been taken to restrict imports from these countries and, therefore, the reduction in price that comes from allowing them to flow in without restriction at all is not reaching the consumers.
LORD ST. OSWALD: My Lords, in the first place that is a matter for debate; secondly, it is a question which may come up as part of the negotiations, and therefore I cannot feel free to discuss it at this moment. I must therefore ask the House to permit me to quote the lines from John Donne which say:
"And whilst our souls negotiate there,
We like sepulchral statues lay,
All day, the same our postures were,
And we said nothing all the day."
I feel that that, in all probability, is the proper posture for a Parliamentary Secretary at this particular moment.
EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, it brings no comfort to the British farmer or consumer.
THE EARL OF SANDWICH: My Lords, does not the noble Lord recall that the same John Donne said:
"…never send to know for whom the bell tolls;
It tolls for thee."?

UNITED NATIONS AND THE PAPUANS
2.45 p.m.
LORD COLYTON: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what provision the Secretary-General of the United Nations has made for the designation of United Nations experts to advise and assist in preparing the arrangements for the self-determination of the Papuan inhabitants of West New Guinea in 1969,

551
as required by Article XVI of the agreement between Indonesia and the Netherlands.]
THE MINISTER OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (THE EARL OF DUNDEE): My Lords, when speaking, on behalf of the Secretary-General of the United Nations, at the ceremony transferring full administrative responsibility to the Government of Indonesia on May 1, Mr. Narasimhan, U Thant's Special Envoy for political affairs, said:
"In consultation with the Government of Indonesia, I have decided in principle to designate a few United Nations experts, serving at headquarters and elsewhere, to perform the functions envisaged in Article XVI of the Agreement. These experts will visit West New Guinea as often as may be necessary and spend such time as may be required to enable them to report fully to me".
LORD COLYTON: My Lords, while thanking my noble friend for his reply, I would ask him three questions. First, as I understand it from Article XVI of the Agreement these experts were to remain in New Guinea during the period before self-determination. Second, I believe there has been no transfer of sovereignty to Indonesia. There has been only a transfer of administration. Can my noble friend tell me where the sovereignty now resides? Third, is it not rather a bad thing that the first action of the Indonesian Government should be to disband the first freely-elected representative Council ever to exist in New Guinea, which Council has in fact, under Articles XIV and XVIII, to be consulted from time to time after the transfer of administration to Indonesia?
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: My Lords, the first question asked about Article XVI, which says that the duties of these United Nations experts, prior to the arrival of the United Nations' representative who will participate in the arrangements for self-determination, will be limited to advice or assistance in preparations to carry out the provisions for self-determination, except in so far as Indonesia and the Secretary-General may agree on their performing other expert functions. They will be responsible to the Secretary-General for the carrying out of their duties. I do not know whether there was any stipulation that they should always be there. In reply to the second
552
question, I think that technically the sovereignty resides with the United Nations until after the plebiscite has been held. I am sorry, but I did not quite catch the gist of the third question.
LORD COLYTON: The third question was whether it was not a bad sign that the first act of the Indonesian authorities was to disband the freely elected representative Council which under the agreement has a part to play in these matters of self-determination.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: My Lords, it does not sound at all a good sign, I quite agree.
LORD OGMORE: My Lords, now that these poor people have been handed over to the inefficient and corrupt Indonesian Government—
SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS: Oh!
LORD OGMORE: That is true. Is it not a fact that it would be quite intolerable if the United Nations abrogated their responsibility and merely sent experts in occasionally? Should they not be there all the time to see that some slight measure of justice may be accorded to these poor people?
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: My Lords, I think that that is a matter of opinion, which sounds reasonable to me. I would make it plain that Her Majesty's Government, not having been a party to the agreement, have no responsibility and that I ought not to enter into a debate on matters of opinion.
LORD OGMORE: My Lords, why does the noble Earl say that Her Majesty's Government have no responsibility? Of course they have. Her Majesty's Government are a member of the Security Council, a Permanent Member, and a member of the Assembly of the United Nations, and to say that the Government have no responsibility is an act of complete irresponsibility.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: My Lords, if there were any emergency arising out of this matter or any question brought before the Security Council we would play our part, but it is quite misleading to say that, because we are a member of the Security Council, we have any kind of primary responsibility for this agreement. If we are to be held responsible

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for everything that is done by the United Nations all over the world, Heaven help us!
EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, is it not a question of maintaining a matter of principle, which has always surely been in the minds of any British Government, to see that justice is done in countries like this, especially in a territory where, unless this tendency of the Indonesians is properly curbed and watched for justice, it will spread to the other part of New Guinea, in which, as a Commonwealth, we are interested?
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: My Lords, it so happens that in the short time I was at the United Nations eighteen months ago, I had to make the pronouncement about our attitude to West New Guinea before the United Nations arrived at this decision. We felt it was a great pity that the inhabitants of Indonesia should not be given a better opportunity of expressing their opinion according to the principles of self-determination, but we are not going to get very much further if we are going on the assumption that whatever we say in New York, Her Majesty's Government are to be held responsible for what the United Nations does.
EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: Surely we ought to hold the Government responsible for the attitude they take in relation to the British people?
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: My Lords, I have just tried to tell the noble Earl what action I took in giving our advice on this subject to the United Nations.

MINISTRY OF HOUSING AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT (PROVISIONAL ORDER (BOLTON) BILL
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF HOUSING AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT (LORD HASTINGS): My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a second time. The Bill is to confirm a Provisional Order which has been made by my right honourable friend the Minister of Housing and Local Government under Section 303 of the Public Health Act, 1875. Section 303 of the Act of 1875 enables my right
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honourable friend, on the application of a local authority, wholly or partially to repeal, alter or amend, with certain exceptions, by means of a Provisional Order, any Local Act which relates to the same subject matter as the Act of 1875.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Hastings.)
On Question, Bill read 2a, and referred to an Unopposed Bill Committee.

TUBERCULOSIS (EXTENSION OF PAYMENTS PERIOD) ORDER 1963
2.55 p.m.
THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD (LORD ST. OSWALD): My Lords, I beg to move that this Order, a copy of which was laid before this House on April 23, be approved. For the convenience of the House, I suggest that this Order and the similar one relating to Scotland be taken together. Section 3 of the Diseases of Animals Act, 1950, empowers the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, in accordance with a scheme made by him and approved by the Treasury, to make payments to owners of cattle in return for their eradicating tuberculosis from their herds. The current Scheme, made under that provision, is the Tuberculosis (Attested Herds) Scheme, 1958. There is a similar Scheme made by the Secretary of State and applying to Scotland. These Schemes provide for the payment of bonuses to owners of attested herds either on the basis of milk sales or upon the number of animals in the herds.
The power to make these payments ends on September 30 of this year but the Act provides that it may be extended for five years on not more than three successive occasions so as to continue for five, ten or fifteen years, as the case may be, from September 30, 1958. This power to extend the period is now being sought for the second and, as things have worked out, the last time in the present draft Order, which provides that the period shall be extended for the five years from October 1, 1963, to September 30, 1968. But as no herds have entered the Attested Herds Schemes since 1959 in Scotland and Wales and since 1960 in England, final payments of bonus will be made in 1966–67, well before this Order expires

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It is a matter for great statisfaction, which I hope the House will share, that the work of clearing tuberculosis from the national herd has progressed so well that it will not be necessary to seek a further extension of the period of payment. The fact that the Attested Herds Schemes will have run their course in less time than Parliament provided for in the Act reflects the energy with which the problem of tuberculosis was tackled by the farming community and the veterinary profession, both in private practice and in Government service. It is true that by 1950, earlier Attested Herds Schemes had resulted in one-fifth of the cattle population being brought up to attested standard, but at that time a formidable task still remained. To be able to declare the whole of Great Britain an attested area by 1960 was a remarkable achievement. Freedom from the disease was not, of course, purchased cheaply, and since 1935, when the first Attested Herds Schemes were introduced, until the end of the present schemes, it is estimated that farmers will have received about £115,000,000 in bonus payments. This is an investment in both human health and in the health of our livestock, and it is, therefore, of direct benefit to the national economy. It is an investment which we are determined to protect, and that is why it is necessary for us to go on check-testing all cattle at regular intervals and to remove immediately any reactors discovered. For these reasons, I hope that the House will approve the Order.
Moved, That the Tuberculosis (Extension of Payments Period) Order 1963, be approved.—(Lord St. Oswald.)
LORD WISE: My Lords, I am very happy on this occasion to agree entirely with the noble Lord. I appreciate the compliment which he has paid to the British farming community and to the veterinary surgeons of the country. This is a simple Order in comparison with the one he moved yesterday, and it is an Order which I think the whole House can approve and be well satisfied with. It is interesting to hear that, though the Order is to be extended to 1968, it will not be necessary to implement it up to that date. I am sure that everyone appreciates the good work that has been done in freeing the cattle of this country from this disease.
LORD WALSTON: My Lords, may I add just a word in support of my noble friend Lord Wise? This is an occasion when one can say that this satisfactory state of affairs is due to a large extent to what the Government have done. Of course, the farmers have played a large part, which I should be the last to deny, as has also the veterinary profession, and perhaps at this stage a special tribute should be paid to the Ministry's veterinary staff, particularly to Sir John Ritchie, who has been head of the veterinary department throughout the course of this scheme. It is a great cause for satisfaction that in such a comparatively short space of time we should have become, I think that I am right in saying, the only country in the world, with the possible exception of some Scandinavian countries, now entirely free of bovine tuberculosis in its cattle. As the noble Lord has said, it is a matter for congratulation and benefit not only to the agricultural industry, but also to the national health. It gives me great pleasure to associate myself with what my noble friend Lord Wise has said.
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL: My Lords, perhaps I may say one word about the human aspect of this. Other countries, and particularly Western countries, are doing a great deal in this field, but I think it should be put on record that, as a result of the clean milk policy of this country, which includes the pasteurisation schemes as well as tuberculin-testing (and I would remind my noble friend that it was a Labour Government which introduced the Clean Milk Bill in 1950), orthopædic hospitals in this country, which 25 years ago were full of small children suffering from bovine tuberculosis, are now closed. Indeed, so many of these children's hospitals throughout the country, where originally the majority of the cases were attributable to infected milk, are empty that it is now possible for local authorities and regional councils to ask themselves how they will use these empty buildings. I think that is a tremendous achievement, and it would be a good thing if the noble Lord could bring this to the attention of the whole country. Unfortunately, chastity has no gossip value, and chastity has no newspaper value. If the children were infected, then there would be headlines—
A NOBLE LORD: Chastity?
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL: Yes. There are two ways of interpreting chastity, but perhaps the noble Lord knows only one. It would be delightful if the whole country recognised the great progress which had been made in this field.
LORD OGMORE: My Lords, I should like to say a word of congratulation from these Benches to all concerned, and particularly to the veterinary profession, which I believe has played a yeoman part in this remarkable achievement. I should like to ask the noble Lord one question in regard to Irish cattle. When I was a boy we had large numbers of Irish cattle come into this country, and particularly to Wales, and they were a great asset to the farming community. When I was in the West of Ireland a few years ago I found that they were in great trouble there, because they had not put into force the particular tests that we had with regard to tuberculosis, and for this reason many of their cattle were not admitted to this country. As a result, great hardship was caused to the farmers in Western Ireland on this score. Considerable steps were being taken by the farming community there, under the leadership of a Colonel Blood, who is, I gather, a descendant of the gentleman who tried to steal the Crown Jewels in the reign of Charles II but, fortunately, failed. But this particular Colonel Blood was having more success in his field than his ancestor had, and he was doing a great deal in regard to the marketing of cattle, clean milk and tubercular free herds. I wonder if the noble Lord could give any indication of the effect of all this on the Irish cattle trade to this country.
LORD KILBRACKEN: My Lords, since my noble friend has raised the point, and since I am farming in Ireland and have an accredited herd there, perhaps I might inform the House that the position now is that tuberculosis has been eradicated from 20 of the 26 counties which are an accredited area. Only cattle from those counties which include
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the whole Western area, to which he referred, are now coming into this country.
LORD ST. OSWALD: My Lords, I should like to thank all noble Lords who have given their approval, encouragement and support to this Order. I am particularly grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Walston, for his words about the Animal Health Division of my Ministry. The suggestion of the noble Baroness, Lady Summerskill, will of course be examined with the great care that we always give to her suggestions. I can tell the noble Lord who asked about Irish cattle that all Irish store cattle imported to Great Britain are, as his noble friend said, attested, and all Midland and Western counties of Eire are now attested areas.
LORD REA: My Lords, could the noble Lord say whether that applies to Charollais cattle?
LORD ST. OSWALD: My Lords, as the noble Lord knows, Charollais cattle have been imported from France only under special licence. So far, there is no other legal method of importing them, except under special Ministry of Agriculture licence; and naturally these have to be passed from an animal health point of view.

TUBERCULOSIS (EXPENSION OF PAYMENTS PERIOD) (SCOTLAND) ORDER 1963
THE MINISTER OF STATE, SCOTTISH OFFICE (LORD CRAIGTON): My Lords, I beg to move that this Order be approved.
Moved, That the Tuberculosis (Extension of Payments Period) (Scotland) Order 1963, be approved.—(Lord Craigton.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

NURSING HOMES BILL
House in Committee (according to Order).
House resumed: Bill reported without amendment; Report received.

LOCAL GOVERNMENT (FINANCIAL PROVISIONS) (SCOTLAND) BILL
3.9 p.m.
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Craigton.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[The LORD AIREDALE in the Chair.]
Clauses 1 and 2 agreed to.
Clause 3 [Reduction of Exchange Equalisation Grants in respect of low rent income]:
LORD SHEPHERD LORD SHEPHERD moved to add to subsection (4):
"( ) The year 1963–64 shall cover the period from 29th August 1963 to the end of the financial year".
The noble Lord said: On behalf of my noble friend Lord Hughes, who has been unavoidably detained, I beg to move the Amendment standing in his name. He deployed the arguments in support of this Amendment fairly fully on Second Reading, and therefore I should prefer to move the Amendment formally, listen to the Minister's reply, and then decide what action we should take in regard to it. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 4, line 27, insert the said subsection.—(Lord Shepherd.)
LORD CRAIGTON: I am sorry that the noble Lord, Lord Hughes, cannot be here to move his Amendment. What he wishes done is important to the Scottish local authorities, and I hope that the Committee will forgive me if I reply as though he had moved the Amendment as forcibly as he spoke about this matter on Second Reading, because (though we do not agree with him) he regards the putting off of the date of coming into operation of Clause 3 as exceedingly important. After the Second Reading, I talked to the noble Lord and promised him that I would examine this point most carefully. I have done so, and I am bound to say that I do not find this to be an Amendment that should be made. Although I
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will quote some figures to support this contention, the real argument here is not one of timing or figures but one of principle.
The Government are being asked, in effect, to put off the operation of Clause 3 for three months in order to give local authorities time to take the necessary steps to enable them to get their rents up to 85 per cent. of gross annual value by August 29. In showing why it is not right for this Amendment postponing the effect of Clause 3 to be accepted, I must give the background to the clause and say why it is being introduced at this particular time and in this particular way.
As I said on Second Reading, the purpose of Clause 3 is not to raise rents, but to restrict Exchequer liability where Exchequer grant is paid on housing deficits due to the charging of unreasonably low rents. The clause originated from the 1960–61 Report of the Public Accounts Committee, published in the middle of 1961. There they recommend in terms that
"early consideration should be given to the exclusion from the calculation of Exchequer equalisation grant for housing deficits which are due to the charge of unreasonably low rents."
It was announced in November, 1961, that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State accepted this recommendation, and that fresh legislation would take effect in May, 1963, after consultation with the local authorities. At about the same time the Secretary of State was making it clear to local authorities that he regarded gross anual value as a guide to reasonable rent.
The first chance to legislate was this Bill, published in October last year, as we had promised in 1961 to do, and this Bill had its Second Reading in another place last November. The Bill continues Exchequer equalisation grant, with some changes, and operates from the beginning of the year commencing May 16, 1963. In the Bill we set the standards against which the actual rent incomes should be set, and not a target that authorities have to achieve. We are not making authorities charge rents above or at a certain level. We are saying simply that if their rents are below that level it is not right that the extra housing deficit should rank for grant. If the majority of ratepayers wish to continue these low rents, that is up

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to them. It is within their control. The taxpayer was contributing through Exchequer equalisation grant, and now he is protected.
What matters is that the Secretary of State should fulfil his undertaking to the Public Accounts Committee at the earliest possible opportunity, which is the beginning of 1963–64. I know that the noble Lord, Lord Hughes, made the point that some of those local authorities who have not raised their rents already will find it difficult—though few indeed will find it impracticable—so to raise their rents for the remainder of 1963–64 as to achieve an 85 per cent. average during the whole year. At first glance, this worried me, too, as the noble Lord knows. But on careful investigation I am convinced that this is not a good case at all, for two reasons.
First, there are, I am informed, quite a number of authorities, who, when they became aware of these provisions in the Bill, raised their rents so that they will achieve the 85 per cent. average for 1963–64. The warning was there for all to read; and they heeded it, even if they had not heeded the advice so often given, that gross annual value was, in the Secretary of State's view, a guide to reasonable rent. Those who find themselves—those with whom the noble Lord is concerned—in the temporary difficulty that this Amendment seeks to overcome, cannot really blame the Government. The Government gave them ample warning and these people have failed to heed it soon enough. There are always exceptions, but I must also make the general point that, over Scotland as a whole, to achieve the 85 per cent. figure rents would have to go up only to 90 per cent. for the last nine months of 1963–64.
Secondly, I have looked most carefully into the financial effect of accepting or rejecting the noble Lord's Amendment. The reduction of grant is, as he said, not the shortfall between actual and notional rents, but only the percentage of grant for that authority in that shortfall. I calculated what reduction in grant under Clause 3 the more badly placed authorities—those with low rents and receiving a high percentage of grant—could have if they simply increased their rents to the 85 per cent. mark for the last nine months of the year. The figures brought out show reductions, broadly, of the order of £2,000 to £10,000—that is, about 1 or 2 per cent.
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of the total grant amount they receive. One of the cities which the noble Lord mentioned, Aberdeen, would show a deduction figure of £7,000 out of a grant of £530,000; one county, Stirling, £12,000 out of £550,000, and another, Lanark, £16,000 out of £2 million.
But there is another significant set of figures which the Secretary of State could not ignore. These are the amounts which, as the Public Accounts Committee noted, represented an unfair burden on the taxpayer. Even on an 85 per cent. basis (and one could make it worse by taking it on a 95 per cent. basis, which the Bill ultimately seeks to attain) some authorities have been receiving in past years large sums simply as a result of charging what from the point of view of this Bill are unreasonably low rents. For example, the city that might lose £7,000 next year got in that way £26,000 in 1962–63, and the county that might lose £12,000 got £53,000, and the one that might lose £16,000 got £80,000. Of course, as I say, if we made the figure 95 per cent. the calculation would be worse.
I am entirely satisfied that in no case would any reduction of grant, consequential on Clause 3, represent a sufficiently serious hardship in 1963–64—and that is the only year affected—to justify the action suggested by the noble Lord, even if no prior warnings had been given. Nor, though I have examined them—and I have no doubt that the noble Lord would have raised them again to-day—do I find anything misleading in the statements of Scottish Ministers in another place. They were made in the context of the provisions of Clause 3, which were there for all to read, and many local authorities read them. Nor is there any serious point, as he suggested in his Second Reading speech, in the late addition of the second table. Its effect can be, in terms of grant lost, only very marginal, and for those who have so far failed to take action it may be to their advantage.
I trust that I have given an adequate answer. Those (and I sympathise with the noble Lord who moved the Amendment) who understand the mysteries of local government—and among them I include the noble Lord, Lord Hughes—know that my arguments are sound. The procedure by local authorities when a Bill is presented, and before it is passed through every stage, is well known. The

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consequences of inaction here, for whatever reason, are, in terms of money, only fractional. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Hughes, and the noble Lord who moved this Amendment, because the Amendment, and the speech I have made, will highlight the wisdom of early action by those concerned; and I trust that after the explanations I have given the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his Amendment.
LORD HUGHES: I must apologise to the House that an engagement elsewhere, helping Fife County Council to attempt to attract industry to Fife at the Exhibition, has delayed me longer than I expected. I do not now wish to press the Amendment, for reasons which have emerged since discussing it, although I think the reasons which persuaded me to put it forward, and which I have no doubt my noble friend Lord Shepherd has advanced, were perfectly sound: that to a certain extent the Government were trying to persuade the local authorities that by taking advantage of this measure they can get something which time alone will prevent them from getting the advantage of.
Since going further into the information I received from the noble Lord, Lord Craigton, on the operation of the Exchequer equalisation grant, I am firmly convinced that in this measure the Government are perpetrating a piece of sharp practice on the local authorities in Scotland: because it does not matter what they do; they are not going to get anything out of the measure. If I understand the scheme properly—and I ought to, after all the briefing I have had from the officials from St. Andrews House last week—this is not a measure to increase rents but a measure to protect the Exchequer against having unduly to subsidise local authority rents by taking into account the housing deficiency payment as an element for the payment of Exchequer equalisation grant.
The Bill lays down certain percentages which local authorities must attain, and, so far as I can see, whether they increase their rents to attain these percentages or whether they do not, at the end of the day they will be in exactly the same position. They are going to lose exactly the same amount of Exchequer grant either way, because either they will have
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the grant deducted since their rent has in fact reached the figure of 85 per cent. or upwards, or it will be deducted because a notional figure of that amount is put in its place. So that there is nothing which Scottish local authorities can do to retain the amount of Exchequer equalisation grant they are getting at the present time so far as the housing deficiency element of finance is concerned.
From that point of view, I think the Government, either wittingly or unwittingly, have persuaded the local authorities that by doing certain things for rent they will get more Exchequer equalisation grants than they otherwise would do. The fact remains that that is not the position. The only additional income local authorities will get will be the income they get from putting up their rents. That may or may not be a good thing, depending entirely on the level of the rents at the present time. But, as has been borne in on me by the Secretary of State, that is beside the point. This is a measure to reduce the amount of grants being paid out, and, having ventilated the subject, having shown, on the one hand, that by the timetable it is impossible for the authorities to benefit from these percentages and, on the other, that, in any event, so far as the grant is concerned they are in exactly the same position at the end of the day, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: I would only ask the Minister, who has made a very long and clear statement on this matter, that we might have an opportunity of examining it, and do as my noble friend now suggests, and allow the Amendment to be withdrawn. If anything further occurs to us about it we can indicate to the Secretary of State and perhaps consider it on Report.
LORD HUGHES: What may be appropriate is an Amendment in a quite different form at the next stage.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 3 agreed to.
Remaining clauses and Schedules agreed to.
House resumed.
Bill reported without amendment.
LORD CRAIGTON: My Lords, it is normal, I understand, to move that this Report be now received. There will also be a Third Reading. I should like to know whether noble Lords opposite would like me to move that the Report be now received, in which case we can discuss on Third Reading the point which the noble Lord raised.
EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: It is a question of time and the Business of the House. If there had not been such a controversial point arising from Scotland on this Bill, perhaps we should be in a different position. But if the Leader of the House would agree, I should prefer that the Report stage take its usual form and that we should now go on with the rest of the Business to-day.
LORD CRAIGTON: My Lords, it occurs to me that for the local authorities to be paid grant this Bill must receive the Royal Assent by the 16th of this month, and I understand that it is not correct or allowed to have the Report and Third Reading together. Delay might therefore occasion very great difficulty for the local authorities: we might not have authority to pay them grant if we were to delay the Report stage at this juncture. So if your Lordships do not mind, I think I must take the responsibility for saying that we can, if necessary, carry out any procedures on Third Reading in this House. I must take personal responsibility for moving now, That this Report be now received.
Moved, That the Report be now received.—(Lord Craigton.)
EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, I have no objection to that course, if my noble friend is aware that he can come back on his point at Third Reading and, if necessary, move an amended form of Amendment.
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL AND MINISTER FOR SCIENCE (VISCOUNT HAILSHAM): My Lords, it is possible on Third Reading to move an Amendment in this House, although we do not normally do so.
LORD HUGHES: My Lords, I think that in the circumstances which the noble Lord, Lord Craigton, has indicated the Government will obviously be obliged
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to give consideration to any reasonable Amendment which is proposed on Third Reading. We do not know whether they will accept it, the Government not always being reasonable; but that is a different kettle of fish.
On Question, Report received.

FORT WILLIAM PULP AND PAPER MILLS BILL
Brought from the Commons, endorsed with the Certificate from the Speaker that the Bill is a money Bill within the meaning of the Parliament Act, 1911; read 1a, and to be printed.

WEIGHTS AND MEASURES BILL
3.27 p.m.
Order of the Day for the House to be again in Committee read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Derwent.)
EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, I am glad that the noble Viscount the Leader of the House is in his place, because on this Motion we wish to raise the question of Business for the day and the position with regard to the process of Business in general. The Amendments remaining on the Paper, some of which are very important, are likely to take a considerable time and, after our experience of last evening, one begins to observe the weariness of Members of your Lordships' House in Committees of this character and our being unable to provide sufficient Members in the House to have really representative decisions taken upon matters of importance. We feel, therefore, that it would be quite unwise either for us to promise that we can get all the Amendments which are still on the Paper through the House to-day or, on the other hand, for the Government to say that they intend to sit to whatever hour it takes to do so. We are not paid servants and there is some limit to human endurance.
In the circumstances, therefore, I think we ought to make it clear to the noble Viscount the Leader of the House that we were not satisfied with the situation last night, and I am sure that the result of that was that the Government themselves were not satisfied either. So I

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think we ought to have perhaps a word from the noble Viscount the Leader of the House as to what he considers the position with regard to to-day's Business and possible future Business of the House.
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL AND MINISTER FOR SCIENCE (VISCOUNT HAILSHAM): My Lords, I think we must get on with to-day's Business and see how far we get. The intention is to conclude the Committee stage to-day. Obviously it is a matter which the noble Earl can raise again. I did not happen to be here last night, but I understand that the weariness was on the side of the Opposition rather than of the Government.
EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: I do object to that, when, after having adjourned for Dinner, the maximum number that the Government could get into the Committee Division was insufficient to form the legal quorum for a Division to be effective. I think that is the Government's responsibility, not mine or my Party's. That really was the position and it is quite likely to happen again if, day after day, Members of the House are to be subjected to these very long sittings, and certainly without the reserves in this unelected House for the Opposition to be able to meet that situation. That is unreasonable. I am quite prepared, as the noble Viscount has suggested, to go on as far as we can with this Bill, but I think that some time limit ought to be settled for to-day. Noble Lords were here until half-past ten last night after the Division, and that surely is late enough for the detailed work that is put in here in Committee by people who are not patient oxen of the Government but are here in an unelected Assembly. If it is necessary, I would be very glad to confer with the noble and learned Viscount the Leader of the House as to what time limit we should have to-night.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, naturally I am always glad to confer with the noble Earl. At present it is our intention to conclude the Committee stage. I do not want in the least to say anything provocative to the noble Earl, but I must point out that the quorums for Divisions apply to Lobbies on both sides. What I am informed happened last night
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was that the Opposition were too weary to go into their own Lobby.
LORD MORRISON OF LAMBETH: My Lords, the noble and learned Viscount the Leader of the House, ought to have apologised for his absence last night, but, typical of him—so cocksure of his followers, whom he regards as Lobby fodder—he does not apologise at all; he really ought to have done. I was not here last night myself, and I do apologise to the House, especially to my noble friends, for not being present. Who knows?—if I had been present I might have been able to help the Government in their misfortune. I am a little doubtful if I would have done, but theoretically it is possible. I think the noble Viscount should treat the point of my noble friend the Leader of the Opposition with respect.
We must make up our minds, or the Government must make up their mind, whether your Lordships' House is to work the hours that the House of Commons does. I must say I am sorry for the House of Commons for having to work such long hours as they do. But one of the boasts of this place has been that, traditionally, when it gets to about 7 o'clock and a noble Lord begins to make a speech he says, "My Lords, I will not detain you for long at this late hour"—even if he proceeds to do so. I must say, from my experience of speakers, when they say their speech is going to be very short I sit back and prepare for a long, one. This habit of the Government's keeping the House sitting late hours, adjourning for Dinner, going on till ten or half-past is not appropriate to an Assembly of this sort, and I think the noble Earl the Leader of the Opposition is quite entitled to protest.
All the Government seem to do is say, "We want this Bill through by a certain date; we do not put on a guillotine, but we are going to keep the House going till a certain hour", in the hope that the House will not be able to stand it and thereby will hurry up. It is not fair, not only to us but to noble Lords opposite, because they are human too. We are all God's children on both sides of the House, and it is not reasonable that in a Chamber of this kind the noble Viscount should try to keep sittings going for such limitless hours that people may have a breakdown in their health. If somebody drops dead in the course of debate in this

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House, let everybody know who will be responsible. I think my noble friend the Leader of the Opposition has raised a reasonable point; and I hope the Government Front Bench, including the Leader of the House and the Chief Whip (who, by the way, is not here at the moment, though this is largely his business) will discontinue this custom of themselves privately deciding how long the House is going to sit and telling our people without adequate consultation.
I hope they will take into account the human strength and human frailties of Members on both sides of the House and have a little consideration and not drive us in the way the noble Viscount is proposing to do. He will get the worst of it in the end. His own people will find themselves from time to time in the same humiliating dilemma. Because it was a dilemma they were in last night—not exactly a dilemma; they were in the soup last night; and they will get into it again if they go on with this policy of driving this House too far.
I have been Leader of the House of Commons; I was for some years—that is another story. But even there, although they are accustomed to long hours, I came to learn if you over-drive them tempers will fray, health will give way; and I came to the conclusion it would be better if we could avoid overdriving the House of Commons. That is why I started the process of having the Whitsun Recess last for a fortnight and some days, which the present Government have often followed, and I think wisely, because by July honourable Members of another place begin to get tired, if people are tired they are liable to be bad-tempered, especially in another place. It is not so easy to make noble Lords bad-tempered, but it can be done, especially in the case of the noble and learned Viscount the Leader of the House.
I do put it to him it is unwise to treat this House almost as if it were paid double time for overtime; it is wiser to treat it as a human institution. He will not lose anything by it in the long run. He is in danger of getting people a bit irritated and tired of the dictatorial way in which the Business has been conducted. I put it to him it is not wise, even in your Lordships' House, where we are patient, to make people irritated
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and upset and fed up. It will not pay in the end. I would urge the noble Viscount to think again about it and to take a somewhat more humane approach to the very important problem that has been raised by my noble friend the Leader of the Opposition.
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[The LORD AIREDALE in the Chair.]
Clause 35 [Local weights and measures authorities in special areas]:
On Question, Whether Clause 35 shall stand part of the Bill?
LORD MORRISON OF LAMBETH: We come now to the merits of this question, That the clause stand part, which we are opposing on this side. It will be remembered that this was reached last night, the clause was opposed by the Opposition, the Labour Party in this House, and it was then that the Division took place; but there was not a quorum in the Division, and therefore the question fell and the Business of the House fell and the House was automatically adjourned. So we return to this business.
This Bill, and the handling of this question as to who shall discharge the functions of weights and measures inspection in Greater London, is one of the most curious pieces of legislation I have ever met. I had it in my head, but I cannot put my finger on it, that the London Government Bill provided that the question of weights and measures would be determined according to legislation in another Bill in the present Session. But, as I cannot find lit, I may have been wrong about the Bill; if it was not in the Bill perhaps it was in the White Paper or a declaration of intention. At any rate, there is nothing which determines the issue in the London Government Bill, which was the appropriate place to settle whether the London boroughs or the Greater London Council should be the weights and measures authority: that was where it ought to have been, in the London Government Bill, because that Bill determines the powers of the various local authorities in the Greater London area. But instead of being in the Bill which really was the appropriate Bill,

571
it is to be found in the Weights and Measures Bill.
How is it handled in this Bill? Not by definition, but again by statutory instrument—that is to say, by ministerial decision subject only to the Negative Resolution procedure in both Houses of Parliament if they disagree with the provision. If one looks at Clause 35(1)(b) and (c) it will be found that until the Board of Trade makes an order bearing on this matter the existing weights and measures inspecting authorities will be the existing local authorities—that is to say, in the administrative county of London, the London County Council; I think in Middlesex the same; and in Surrey, Essex and Kent I think it will be the County Council, though it may be that in some of those cases county district councils are authorities; I am not so sure. But I know that in the County of London it is the London County Council. However, the Government propose to abolish the London County Council for reasons with which we are all familiar on both sides and in every quarter of the House.
It is then proposed, having maintained the present situation until an order is made, under Clause 35(1)(c) that
"the Board"—
that is to say, the Board of Trade—
"may by order, which shall be subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of either House of Parliament, direct that, as from such date as may be appointed by the order, the local weights and measures authority for such area consisting of or including that part shall be such authority as may be specified in the order."
What a Government this is! They are incapable of making up their mind even at this late stage as to who the weights and measures authority shall be. Rumour has it, probably with truth, that the Government intend that the London boroughs shall be the weights and measures authority. That means that, whereas now in the administrative County of London as it is there is one authority for this purpose, the London County Council, the Government propose that after the County of London is abolished and the Greater London Council comes into being, it will not be the Greater London Council which is the authority—this is, if my guess is right—but about fourteen London boroughs will be the
572
weights and measures authorities. This is really absurd. It is most undesirable that this business of inspecting weights and measures authorities should be shared among fourteen authorities (if that is the figure) whereas it has been done by one for perfectly good reasons which have previously commended themselves to Parliament.
We would think, even though we say this is the wrong place and that it should be done in the London Government Bill, that the right thing would be to provide in this Bill that the weights and measures authority should be the Greater London Council. It is not a question of personal social services, so the Government cannot plead that. It is an inspectoral service and is not directly concerned with local government contact with human beings, except traders and so on. There are a number of technical considerations in weights and measures. The London County Council has conducted a fair amount of technical work. There are weighing machines and measuring machines to be kept, and to be kept up to date. There is a considerable amount of research to do. Moreover, in the interests of the trades people themselves, it is desirable that the administrative standards for the inspection of weights and measures should be uniform and not subject to variation over the whole of the Greater London area, because if you have 34 authorities in the Greater London area you are liable to have 34, or somewhat fewer, standards of administration in weights and measures.
So we submit to the Committee that this clause ought to go out. If it goes out, then the Government will have to put something else in, either here, or, as I think should be the case, in the London Government Bill. It is not appropriate that this service should be split up among 34 different authorities. It is not a social, human service in the way in which we have been describing this term, even if it has human repercussions. It is not that kind of service; it is a service of inspection. It is desirable that it should be uniform in its standards over the whole of Greater London. It is desirable that the authority should be big enough to conduct research, to test, to be accurate over the whole of this matter of inspection and control of weights and measures; and I trust that the Government, having been hanging

573
about all this time, not being able to make up their minds early enough to put it in the London Government Bill, then not being able to make up their minds in order to put the definition in this Bill, and even now not seeming to be ready, or the Minister of State for the Board of Trade, may be able to say that the Government will put down a definition clause on Report or an appropriate provision in the London Government Bill.
That they could do. But why this should not be settled on the Floor of Parliament, I do not know. I think it ought to be, and that this should not be a matter which is determined by statutory instrument in the way proposed, because when we get the statutory instrument all that this House and all that another place can say simply is, "Yes" or "No". There can be no amendment of the provision of the measure itself; there is merely a fiat "Yes" or "No". I say that the Government are treating the House of Commons with contempt, and are now treating your Lordships with contempt. They got punished last night for doing that, and I hope they will get punished to-day for doing it.
At any rate, we do not assent to this clause going through. There was once a book written by a former Lord Chief Justice called The New Despotism which denounced all this delegated legislation. I did not agree with the learned Lord Chief Justice, but this sort of thing gives him a bit of a case. This is tyrannical; it is deliberate dodging of Parliament, not only of your Lordships' House but of another place as well. It really is shameful conduct on the part of the Government. If they believe that the responsibility is with this House, which has boasted that it is the guardian of liberty, the check on tyrannical and bureaucratic government is to do what we want it to do—namely, to omit this clause, so that the Government will then have to take, at any rate constitutionally, the right Parliamentary course.
3.49 p.m.
THE MINISTER OF STATE, BOARD OF TRADE (LORD DERWENT): I do not think the Committee will want me to answer at great length. The case put by the noble Lord was put by his colleagues at considerable length yesterday and I gave an answer. Noble Lords
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opposite did not like the answer; I can give no other answer to-day. The point of this clause is—
LORD MORRISON OF LAMBETH: You had better be polite, too. You will get into trouble, too.
LORD DERWENT: The noble Lord wants me to give one answer to-day having given a different answer yesterday. Why he should expect that on the same question, I fail to see.
LORD MORRISON OF LAMBETH: Be courteous.
LORD DERWENT: The London Government Bill and the Weights and Measures Bill have both been introduced during the current Session. Both Bills will require the Board of Trade to direct which local authorities in the Metropolitan region shall be weights and measures authorities. The London Government Bill may be altered during its course through Parliament. Furthermore, when it has passed through Parliament, two or more of the local authorities may decide, in so far as weights and measures alone are concerned, to combine together as a weights and measures authority; and according to what is decided after that Bill has become law, so will the weights and measures authority be set up. It is for that reason that in this Weights and Measures Bill the Board of Trade have power to make certain authorities or groups of authorities the weights and measures authority after the London Government Bill has become law. If we did not have this clause in the Bill there would be no method of making the appropriate—I use the word advisedly—weights and measures authority under the other Bill. It is for that reason this clause is in.
EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: I apologise, too, for not being here last night, but I would not say that I was 100 per cent. fit at the moment. I am wholly dissatisfied with the answer given by the noble Lord. I pass over the terseness of his opening and take the substance of his argument. Of course, this is delegated legislation carried to an extreme. It is special legislation to enable a Government Department to do in London boroughs what ought not to be done, having regard to the principles usually followed in such

575
Statutes to secure the largest efficient area possible and with the least possible expense to the Treasury. That has been the custom. There have been variations here and there from traditional history, but they have been put right as rapidly as legislation could be enacted to do it.
Here we have a situation where one is going to change over from a system which has worked quite satisfactorily in the large and wide area of the London County Council, and then to leave it to a Minister to settle on the spot the principle whether or not a borough should be its own weights and measures authority, as against what has been the practice in London during the considerable number of years the London County Council has been in existence.
The Opposition in this House has been perfectly right to pay attention to this clause. It is not easy to amend it, but it could easily be left out. If, on the other hand, the Government want to have a clause of this kind they should take it back, reconsider it and bring forward something to satisfy the House at large on Report stage. Apparently the question of cost does not appeal at all to this Government. In 1951–52 this country's budget was £4,200 million; now, under the same Government, we have a budget of something like £6,300 million a year. But there seems no prospect at all of having the proper economy set stage by stage in each branch of legislation in regard to the spending of money. Here is a case in which you would go to a deliberate increase in expenditure on the weights and measures inspectorate of Greater London by not accepting the point of view that we submit to-day. I think it is scandalous.
LORD DERWENT: With great respect to the noble Earl, I know the argument; he has explained it very clearly, and it was also made last night. The argument is not really that this clause is wrong, but that the London Government Bill is wrong. That is not a matter which we
are now debating and what may come out of the London Bill—Parliament may alter it—may not be exactly what the noble Earl or I think at this moment. It is essential that we should have some method of seeing that what does come out of the London Government Bill works efficiently.
LORD MORRISON OF LAMBETH: We are much obliged to the noble Lord. Can he tell us, in that case, what are the Government's intentions about it, and where they will bring in the appropriate Parliamentary legislation? By which Bill?
LORD DERWENT: The appropriate legislation is this clause.
EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: Well, there we are.
LORD STONHAM: That underlines the point I made last night. It is not a discussion, nor can it be, about the rights or wrongs of the London Government Bill. Our difficulty now is the uncertainty created in our minds by Clause 35 of this Bill because of what is going to happen under the London Government Bill. That is a matter which arises from the extraordinary ill-timing of these two Bills so that we are considering them both in the same week. Therefore, obviously we are in difficulty, quite apart from the fact that when we come to consider the London Government Bill in Committee we shall be objecting to some of these provisions.
LORD DERWENT: With respect to the noble Lord, I do not think he is uncertain because of this clause. He is uncertain because of the timing of the Bill. That is not what we are discussing at the moment. He may be uncertain as regards the provision of the London Government Bill, but I do not think this clause is creating the uncertainty.
On Question, Whether Clause 35 shall stand part of the Bill?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 63; Not-Contents, 26.

CONTENTS

Ailwyn, L.

Bossom, L.

Craigton, L.

Ampthill, L.

Braye, L.

Davidson, V.

Amulree, L.

Bridgeman, V.

Denham, L.

Atholl, D.

Cholmondeley, M.

Derwent, L.

Auckland, L.

Colville of Culross, V.

Devonshire, D.

Balfour of Inchrye, L.

Conesford, L.

Dilhorne, L. (L. Chancellor.)

Beauchamp, E.

Cottesloe, L.

Dudley, L.

Effingham, E.

Jellicoe, E.

Montgomery of Alamein, V.

Ferrers, E.

Kilbracken, L.

Newton, L.

Ferrier, L.

Lansdowne, M.

Ogmore, L.

Fortescue, E.

Lloyd, L.

Palmer, L.

Gage, V.

Long, V.

Perth, E.

Goschen, V. [Teller.]

Lothian, M.

Rathcavan, L.

Gosford, E.

Mancroft, L.

St. Aldwyn, E. [Teller.]

Grenfell, L.

Margesson, V.

St. Oswald, L.

Hailsham, V. (L. President.)

Massereene and Ferrard, V.

Sinha, L.

Hanworth, V.

Meston, L.

Somers, L.

Hawke, L.

Mills, V.

Spens, L.

Horsbrugh, B.

Milverton, L.

Swinton, E.

Howe, E.

Monck, V.

Templemore, L.

Hylton, L.

Monsell, V.

Twining, L.

NOT-CONTENTS

Addison, V.

Fraser of North Cape, L.

St. Davids, V.

Alexander of Hillsborough, E.

Freyberg, L.

Shepherd, L. [Teller.]

Amwell, L.

Harvey of Tasburgh, L.

Silkin, L.

Attlee, E.

Henderson, L.

Stonham, L.

Burton of Coventry, B.

Hughes, L.

Summerskill, B.

Champion, L.

Latham, L.

Walston, L.

Crook, L.

Lindgren, L.

Williamson, L.

Douglas of Barloch, L.

Lucan, E. [Teller.]

Wise, L.

Faringdon, L.

Morrison of Lambeth, L.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Resolved in the affirmative, and Clause 35 agreed to accordingly.
Clauses 36 and 37 agreed to.
Clause 38 [Annual reports by local weights and measures authorities]:
4.5 p.m.
LORD STONHAM LORD STONHAM moved in subsection (1) to leave out "Each local weights and measures authority shall, in respect of each financial year of the authority, make to the" and insert:
"the chief inspector of each local weights and measures authority shall, in respect of each financial year of the authority, make to the authority who shall send a copy thereof to the".
The noble Lord said: As Clause 38 now stands, the duty of sending an annual report to the Board of Trade falls on the weights and measures authority; that is, the statutory authority. One would think that that would be the logical way to deal with this particular problem, and that I freely admit, but I am moving this Amendment in order to give the Government an opportunity to say why they have chosen this course. It is strongly felt that the responsibility for preparing the annual report has been for a good many years the direct responsibility of the chief inspector, and also that, as has been the case for many years, the local weights and measures authority should then be required to forward a copy of the report to the Board of Trade.
Under Clause 41(3) the chief inspector is responsible generally for the operation
578
of the arrangements in his area to give effect to the purposes of the Act. He will undoubtedly be held responsible for the efficiency of those arrangements, particularly by any Board of Trade inquiry under the next clause, Clause 39. It is thought to be important, therefore, that the chief inspector should retain freedom to direct attention in his official annual report to any defects in the arrangements.
This, indeed, has been one of the important uses of these annual reports hitherto, in exactly the same manner that a medical officer of health to a borough is able in that way to draw attention, not only to health conditions in his area, but to defects which in his view should be remedied. Obviously, not the least value of such a statutory report, if made by a chief inspector, would be that it would be brought to the notice of all the members of the council of the local weights and measures authority, and not merely to one of the committees which might be largely dominated by a chairman with little interest in this branch of administration. I am not suggesting that this is a difficulty which is very rife or prevalent, but it is within my knowledge that it has happened in some places and there is some reason to think that it still maintains in some areas.
Therefore, I feel that we should not just lightly accept the decision that the Government have made so far, to put the responsibility straight on to the local authority, the weights and measures authority. There must be some good

579
and sufficient reason, I submit, and the Government should state that reason, why they have discontinued the long and satisfactory process of requiring the chief inspector of weights and measures to give the report. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 42, line 37, leave out from beginning to end of line 38 and insert the said new words.—(Lord Stonham.)
LORD DERWENT: I am grateful to the noble Lord for putting down this Amendment because, as he said, it gives me the opportunity of saying why the Government have decided on the course they have. This clause deals with the annual reports made by local weights and measures authorities to the Board of Trade. Under existing law, local authorities are required to send in statistics only about the visits made by their inspectors to traders' premises and the equipment verified and inspected. However, in recent years it has been increasingly the practice, I am glad to say, for inspectors to submit fuller reports of their work to their authorities, and these reports are normally, or frequently, at any rate, forwarded to the Board of Trade. They invariably include the statistical information required by law. That must be in the report sent to the Board of Trade.
As the clause is at present drafted, it will be the duty of each local authority to submit a report on the arrangements they have made in their area to give effect to the purposes of the Bill—the responsibility for that is on the local authority—and the practical effect of the Amendment would be to substitute the chief inspector for the local authority; in other words, to make the chief inspector report to the Board of Trade, and not the local authority. By Clause 41, subsection (3), which the noble Lord mentioned, the chief inspector is to be responsible to the local weights and measures authority for the operation of the local authority's arrangements, and it is clearly right that, as part of his duty, he should report to his authority on the work of his department. But it is the council which is responsible for administering the weights and measures functions conferred on it by the Bill.
LORD STONHAM: Would the noble Lord allow me to interrupt him? Does
580
that mean that, under Clause 41(3), the chief inspector of weights and measures has a statutory duty to report to his local authority?
LORD DERWENT: Yes, it does indeed. We feel, therefore, that it is the council which should be responsible for the report to the Board of Trade: the chief inspector to the council, and the council to the Board of Trade. Whether councils should be compelled to forward without alteration or comment the full reports submitted to them by their chief inspectors is another matter. They frequently do. In the Government's opinion, it would be undesirable to compel local authorities to forward the reports of their chief inspector to the Board of Trade even in cases where the authority disagreed with the report. If the Amendment were carried, they would still have to send it to the Board of Trade, although what the inspector was saying would not necessarily be by Statute. We feel rather strongly that the final decision on the words of the report to the Board of Trade should rest with the local authority, and that is why we have tried to provide that whoever is responsible for a particular section of work should be the one actually responsible: the chief inspector being responsible to the local authority, and the local authority being responsible for sending the report to the Board of Trade. We feel that it should be the local authority's report that we receive. In that report must be certain information required under Statute.
LORD STONHAM: I regard that as a comprehensive and most satisfactory explanation from the noble Lord, and one which I not only fully accept but with which I fully agree. I am glad, however, that the Amendment was moved so that the explanation could be made, and be read by others interested in it. With that, I ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 38 agreed to.
Clause 39 agreed to.
Clause 40 [Expenses of authorities and compensation of officers]:
On Question, Whether Clause 40 shall stand part of the Bill?
4.17 p.m.
LORD STONHAM: We have not tabled an Amendment to this clause, but I wish to draw the attention of the noble Lord to a difficulty which will arise under the clause with regard to the compensation of a number of inspectors. I think the number likely to be affected is something like 25 to 35, whose pay, compensation and prospects of advancement may, and probably will, unless great care is taken, be adversely affected by the changes that will take place through some local authorities losing their weights and measures powers under Clause 34. Due to the timing of local government commission reviews in various parts of the country and to the delay since the original Bill was introduced in your Lordships' House two years ago, the effect of transfer on these staffs may well be harsh and complicated, as well as denying experienced officers the opportunity to continue in posts, or to continue towards posts, appropriate to their present level of responsibility. The trouble will arise particularly, as I understand it, with regard to junior inspectors absorbed into the county staff, and also to senior and chief inspectors, trained and experienced men used to exercising responsibility, who may well be placed in subordinate positions owing to these changed circumstances.
This, of course, is a serious matter. I think we are all agreed that there is almost certainly going to be a shortage of inspectors and a difficulty in recruiting sufficient trained inspectors quickly enough to carry out the considerably increased duties which will fall upon them under this Bill. Therefore it is important that we should try to avoid, so far as we possibly can, the bad effects which may accrue to experienced officers owing to changes brought about by the Bill, which changes are entirely beyond their control. I am aware that I have not given the noble Lord notice that I intended to raise this point on this clause, and I shall quite understand if he is not able to give me a comprehensive answer at this stage; but, by giving notice now, I am at least giving long notice that I may raise it again later on.
LORD DERWENT: I think I can give the noble Lord what hope he will consider is a satisfactory reply. I have had only a few seconds to think what to say,
582
but I believe it is all right. Subsection (2) of this clause is the important one dealing with the point which the noble Lord has raised. This requires the Board to make regulations relating to the payment of compensation to any employee of a local authority who suffers loss of employment or loss or dimunition of emoluments owing to the employing authority either being required to relinquish the weights and measures functions under the Bill or voluntarily relinquishing them to the county, or entering into a combination with another authority, where probably, again, there would be a reduction of staff. The regulations will prescribe whether the authority losing the function or the one gaining it is to pay the compensation, and may make exceptions, impose conditions and include directions as to the manner in which compensation is to be claimed, and to whom it is to be paid.
That is pretty comprehensive. Under those regulations provisions can also be made by regulations for the determination of any questions which may arise under the regulations. Compensation can be provided for in the case of unqualified as well as qualified weights and measures staff. The Board intend to issue, as soon as practicable after the Bill has been passed, appropriate regulations based on the precedents of Section 60 of the Local Government Act, 1958, in respect of comparable regulations relating to other local authorities. The object will be for these regulations to come into effect simultaneously with this Part of the Bill; that is to say, six months after the passing of the Bill. The noble Lord has said he would like to consider whether this is satisfactory before the next stage of the Bill. Perhaps he need not even bother to answer now. If he will let me know whether he wants any further information before the next stage of the Bill I will write to him and give him full details.
LORD STONHAM: I am most grateful and I will certainly study what the noble Lord has said to-morrow morning and write to him. My own feeling is that the compensation provisions are perfectly satisfactory as such. The one thing about which I am still in doubt is the possible loss of seniority or prospects of promotion. But I will certainly write to the noble Lord.
Clause 40 agreed to.
Clause 41 [Inspectors of weights and measures]:
4.23 p.m.
LORD STONHAM LORD STONHAM moved to add to subsection (2):
"Provided that any such person who is aggrieved by dismissal from office may appeal to the Board against such dismissal ".
The noble Lord said: This is a very simple Amendment and one which I hope will appeal to the Committee's sense of justice. In this matter we are concerned with a very responsible, trained staff who have great responsibilities placed upon them and who will have increasing duties to carry out. The Bill provides that weights and measures authorities must notify the Board of both appointments and dismissals of members of weights and measures inspectorate. I find it extraordinary that there is no right of appeal written into the Bill against dismissal, for example, on the ground of incompetence or on any ground other than the commission of a felony. This is a numerically small body of men with great responsibilities; with perhaps only three or four of them in a large area, each with his particular number, each a registered person and a man apart; and they are not able to transfer easily from one job to another unless on promotion.
If they are dismissed they should surely have the right of appeal. Particularly in regard to the terms of Clause 35 (on which we have just had a long, even over-long, discussion) I believe they should have this right of appeal. The noble Lord may say in reply that such a right is explicit or implicit in the Bill. I hope he will not say that, because these inspectors are a special kind of people. It should be made clear to everyone, and particularly the local authority employers, that they are not lightly to be dismissed and that they have this right of appeal. I have it in mind that these heavy responsibilities and extra duties will almost inevitably lead to demands from the inspectors for higher salaries, and it may well be that the smaller local authorities, whom the Government seem determined to make into weights and measures authorities, may not feel able to pay these salaries. They may resist the wage demands and they may therefore even dismiss their weights and measures inspectors without what I would regard as just cause.
I do not think it is of any use for the noble Lord to argue that this office of weights and measures inspectorate is just the same as any other local government employment, because it is not. The Board of Trade do not have to be notified of the appointment of a deputy town clerk or of a senior administrative assistant; but the Minister of Health has to be notified of the appointment of a medical officer of health—in fact, it is a joint appointment made with the local authority—and any medical officer of health who felt he could complain about the reason for his dismissal would most certainly have the right of appeal to the Minister.
I submit that this is an exact parallel and that this right of appeal against dismissal should be written into the Bill. The noble Lord may feel that the Amendment asks for a right of appeal in all circumstances and that that might be too much. If that is what he feels, then I would ask him to give an indication whether he would be prepared to consider a more limited right of appeal appropriate to certain dismissals for certain reasons. We could then think again on another occasion. But I thought it best on Committee stage to table the Amendment in its present terms and then to consider what further action we might decide later to take in the light of the reply of the noble Lord. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 45, line 33, at end insert said proviso.—(Lord Stonham.)
LORD DERWENT: I am afraid I am not going to recommend this Amendment. I must therefore explain the Government attitude in this matter. It was explained in another place but it must be explained again. The Amendment is to give inspectors the right to appeal to the Board of Trade against dismissal. I think we made it clear in another place, and I repeat it now, that the right of dismissal should be—and I will mention the special cases raised by the noble Lord—in the hands of the employer. We do not think that weights and measures inspectors differ in any way in this respect from anyone else employed. The employer is the local authority, and we think it is up to the local authority to decide whether or not they wish to terminate the employment

585
of one of the inspectors. I should have thought the grounds for dismissal would normally be one of two kinds: either defects of character or technical incompetence. Those would seem to be the most normal reasons for dismissal.
Frankly, the Board of Trade would be in no position to judge whether the local authority had made a reasonable decision in respect of character; and as regards technical competence, this point was strongly made by the noble Lord, Lord Douglas of Barloch, in a previous Amendment on which he spoke. An inspector of weights and measures has to possess a certificate of qualification granted by the Board to the effect that he has sufficient skill and knowledge for the proper carrying out of the functions of an inspector before he can be appointed. An appeal to the Board of Trade against dismissal for technical incompetence, therefore, can be judged only by the re-examination of the inspector concerned. I suggest that it would be a most unusual, unprecedented step to require a professional officer to re-sit his qualifying examination later in life in order to determine whether or not he retained the technical skill and knowledge necessary for his duties.
This is really a practical problem. The few cases of the dismissal of inspectors of which the Board have become aware have all been due to character defects and have had nothing to do with the man's competence. We think that the Board of Trade are not competent to judge character defects, and the employer is. The noble Lord raised the point of medical officers of health, but they have a different historic background, dating from the time when the Ministry paid part of their salaries. These circumstances have never applied to inspectors of weights and measures. In the great bulk of cases local authority employees have no right of appeal to a Minister, and we do not think it a good thing to start it for any particular branch of local authority employees. I hope that in view of what I have said, the noble Lord will be satisfied and not press this Amendment.
LORD STONHAM: The noble Lord is wrong in saying that all local authority employees do not have a right of appeal. A town clerk would have a right of appeal. The noble Lord also suggested that my mention of medical officers of
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health was not a parallel, and I do not agree with him. I should have thought that the profession of inspector of weights and measures was about as ancient as the medical profession. But, obviously, the noble Lord is not in a position to accept this Amendment. He did not say—and if it is the case I should he glad if he would say it—that the right of appeal was implicit in the Bill. The noble Lord shakes his head. In that case, there is no right of appeal at all. Therefore the noble Lord might tell me what an aggrieved inspector would do and how he would get himself reinstated, if he thought that he had been wrongfully dismissed.
LORD DERWENT: He has the same rights in law as any other employee who thinks that be has been wrongfully dismissed.
On Question, Amendment negatived.
Clause 41 agreed to.
Clause 42 agreed to.
Clause 43 [Performance by inspectors of additional functions]:
4.35 p.m.
LORD DERWENT LORD DERWENT moved to leave out subsection (1) and to insert instead:
"(1) The arrangements made by a local weights and measures authority to give effect in their area to the purposes of this Act may include the provision under the super-vision of the chief inspector for their area of a service for the adjustment of weights and measures, but not of other weighing or measuring equipment; and where such a service is so provided the authority shall charge such fees in connection therewith as may be prescribed; but—

(a) except by way of the adjustment of weights and measures—

(i) during the period of two years beginning with the date of commencement of this section; and

(ii) with the express authority in writing of the Board; and

(b) except for a chief inspector acting in the supervision of such a service as aforesaid,

no person holding office as an inspector who is employed in the inspection of weighing or measuring equipment for the purposes of its use for trade shall also undertake, whether as part of such a service as aforesaid or otherwise, the adjustment for those purposes of weighing or measuring equipment of any description."
The noble Lord said: Although this appears to be a long and substantial

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change, it is, as I will explain, little more than a drafting amendment. Your Lordships may recall that when the earlier Bill was before this House several Amendments to the corresponding clause were tabled. In one of these Amendments [OFFICIAL REPORT, December 15, 1960, col. 630] the noble Lord, Lord Latham, sought to replace the words "an organisation" by the word "arrangements", and in moving his Amendment he said that local authorities took the view that in many cases there was no need to set up an entirely separate organisation for the adjustment of traders' equipment.
In resisting the Amendment my noble friend Lord St. Oswald, who was there speaking for the Government, explained that the use of the word "organisation" did not imply that separate premises, separate equipment and separate personnel must he used. All it implied was that those persons engaged in the work of adjusting should report direct to the chief inspector of weights and measures, and that a separate set of accounts should be kept so that the cost and charges for ordinary weights and measures testing work and any adjusting work carried out by the local authority could be kept separate. However, the same point was raised again on the present clause in another place, and my honourable friend the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade, while explaining that the word "organisation" did not have the meaning attributed to it by the opposition, promised to look at the wording again. This has now been done, and this Amendment will, I hope, finally remove the qualms which have been felt about the drafting of this particular subsection.
The clause now makes it clear beyond doubt that separate premises and separate equipment are not required to be used for adjusting traders' weights and measures. Moreover, although inspectors of weights and measures are still precluded from adjusting traders' weights and measures two years after the date of commencement of the clause, and the persons employed on adjusting work will still be required to report to the chief inspector of weights and measures, there is no prohibition on such persons' performing a dual function
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—namely, of assisting an inspector in his duties under the Bill and of adjusting traders' weights and measures. This is the alteration in the clause which in another place we undertook to make. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 46, line 11, leave out subsection (1) and insert the said new subsection.—(Lord Derwent.)
LORD LATHAM LORD LATHAM moved, as an Amendment to the Amendment, in paragraph (b) to leave out "a chief inspector acting" and insert "supervising or assisting". The noble Lord said: I am afraid that I cannot agree with the noble Lord, Lord Derwent, that his Amendment is no more than a matter of drafting. He has recounted accurately the dispute we had in December, 1960, with his colleague, the noble Lord, Lord St. Oswald, about the connotation to be attached to the words "arrangement" and "organisation". In its original form, this subsection was seriously criticised by local authorities. In another place, the Parliamentary Secretary undertook to reconsider this and presumably this Amendment is the result of that reconsideration. But the Amendment now proposed does not meet the defects which the local authorities envisage; indeed, all it does is to change the wording, somewhat ingeniously, leaving the requirements of the clause precisely the same.
We are anxious to avoid the expense of providing special staffs, expensive equipment and transport in order to continue to afford a service which has been made available to traders by the majority of authorities for over seventy years. In order to comply with the requirements of Clause 43(1), as written in the Bill and in the noble Lord's Amendment, one authority of which I have knowledge would require to employ at least two additional assistants, purchase duplicate sets of testing instruments and provide two vans, at an annual cost of about £2,000—and all this for fees which in the year 1961–62 totalled, as respects this authority, some £305. I am assured that losses of this character, measured of course by reference to the size of the area covered by the authority and the population, are made in respect of the provision of this service.
If the Government really wished to abolish local authorities' adjusting services, as it is believed they do, they could not do so more effectively by writing an absolute prohibition into the Bill than by putting in what is, in fact, in Clause 43(1) and their current Amendment. What we see in this connection is an assistant working under the supervision of an inspector, and when necessary, particularly at temporary rural verification centres, using one set of testing equipment, which should be permitted, to adjust simple weights and measures as a convenience to traders. The noble Lord's Amendment could easily be adapted to meet these requirements by altering a few words in paragraph (b) of subsection (1), which is what this Amendment to the Amendment does.
The adoption of this Amendment, in the altered situation which would thus exist, would, if the service is to be continued, save wasteful use of manpower and of capital resources. As it stands at present, without the Amendment that I am moving, the subsection would require the chief inspector to supervise the adjustment. Why should this waste of his time and technical skill be continued in the wasteful way I have indicated? It is therefore to be hoped that this Amendment to the Amendment will be accepted by the Government. It involves no question of policy, but only a question of economical and efficient operation and administration of the service. I accordingly hope that the noble Lord will be able to indicate that, if necessary, there will be another think, with the remaining half (shall I say?) of the defects dealt with and removed, one half having been already removed by the Parliamentary Secretary's further consideration, to which the noble Lord referred. I beg to move the Amendment to the Amendment.
Amendment to Amendment moved—
In paragraph (b) leave out ("a chief inspector acting") and insert the said new words.—(Lord Latham.)
4.44 p.m.
LORD DERWENT: I am afraid that we do not like the Amendment to the Amendment, upon two grounds. First of all, there is a matter of policy, to which we object, which comes out in the Amendment to the Amendment; and secondly, we believe there is still some misapprehension about the effects of the
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clause. This Amendment to the Amendment would permit inspectors other than chief inspectors to supervise or assist in the supervision of the adjusting of traders' weights and measures. We do not think it would be right (and this is the matter of policy) to allow any inspector to supervise the adjusting service. The service is a part of the arrangements made to give effect in the area to the purposes of the Bill when it becomes an Act.
LORD LATHAM: May I interrupt, for clarity's sake? I did not suggest that the chief inspector should provide, but that he should supervise. That is quite different from provision.
LORD DERWENT: But I think the Amendment to the Amendment will allow the ordinary inspector to supervise.
LORD LATHAM: Supervise or assist?
LORD DERWENT: To supervise. It is that that we do not like. We do not think he ought to be allowed to supervise, because the chief inspector is made responsible to the local authority by Clause 41(3).
LORD STONHAM: If I may interrupt, I think the noble Lord is wholly wrong in taking this view. If he reads the last six lines of his own Amendment, which we do not seek to alter, it makes it perfectly clear that
"no person holding office as an inspector…shall also undertake, whether as part of such a service as aforesaid or otherwise, the adjustment for those purposes of weighing or measuring equipment of any description."
That is quite conclusive, and we do not propose to alter it.
LORD DERWENT: I am advised that the effect of this Amendment does alter that. I will have another look at the drafting, but that is what I am advised, and I believe it to be so. If I find that I am wrong, I will come back to noble Lords.
There still seems to be some misapprehension about the provisions of this clause, particularly when it comes to staffing, expense and so on, which the noble Lord explained. The fact that a chief inspector is the only officer authorised to supervise adjusting of weights and measures does not mean that his physical presence is necessary all the time the adjusting is going on. Nor does

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it prevent an inspector and an adjuster from working together in the same room, either in the weights and measures office or elsewhere. All it means is that, so far as adjusting is concerned, the adjuster will work independently of the inspector, reporting direct to the chief inspector. At times when he has no adjusting work the adjuster will be quite free to assist the inspector with the latter's duties. What the Amendment to the Amendment does not provide is that the chief inspector is entirely responsible for this. He need not be there, but he must see that it is done properly; he supervises. I am advised that the effect of the Amendment would be to allow an inspector to supervise.
LORD STONHAM: I should like the noble Lord to realise that we regard this as a matter of importance, and we feel that the Government have taken the wrong decision unless (the noble Lord will not tell us this, and I hope that it is not the case) they are determined to wipe out this valuable service which weights and measures authorities in many parts of the country give to traders. I ask the noble Lord to forget London, and to forget the big cities, so far as weights and measures are concerned in this matter, and have regard only to the situation in his own Yorkshire. Weights and measures people will arrange to take a village school; an assistant will set up his equipment, and the people will come from miles around bringing their weights for testing and so on. The assistant perhaps will test a weight, add a little bit of lead, stamp it, and say, "Sixpence, please"; and that's that. It is an extremely valuable service to people who would otherwise have to go long distances to have these things tested.
The weights and measures authority do not earn any money out of it; in fact, the service is an expense; it is a cost which is never recovered. But because they are aware that it is a very valuable service they want to continue it. They, and we, are afraid that the noble Lord's Amendment to the Bill does not, without our Amendment, cover this point. They are afraid that it means we shall have to set up an organisation which will be so expensive that they will be obliged to say that they are going to discontinue
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this modest and valuable service altogether.
I think the noble Lord gave the whole game away with his first words when he introduced this Amendment, because he said that it is little more than a drafting Amendment; and my understanding of a drafting Amendment is that it is a different form of words but leaves the meaning unchanged. I do not know whether the noble Lord is getting the point about his draft Amendment. This whole mass of words, about 30 lines and 150 words, is just a drafting Amendment, whereas my noble friend has said there has been an ingenious use of words to get rid of the word "organisation" but to leave the actual effect exactly the same as it was before.
What will happen if the Government do not accept our Amendment to the noble Lord's Amendment? There will be an end to this service, because it is going to be too expensive for local authorities to carry it on. That means depriving people of the chance of getting their weights and measures adjusted and kept right; as a result, they may well fall into error, and eventually bring prosecutions on themselves. The scale-makers could not be bothered to provide a service of this kind: they want merely to sell new weights, and not to repair them. They are just not interested in doing a repair service like this; so unless this adjustment is done in this way by the inspector's assistant it will not get done at all. We feel strongly that this is the position, and I should like the noble Lord to have respect for this opinion, not because I am expressing it, but because it is the view of people who know vastly more about this question than I do, or, possibly, any other Member of your Lordships' House. I would ask the noble Lord, therefore, to consider very carefully before he rejects my noble friend's Amendment, and, even if he feels obliged so to reject it, to give an assurance that it will be very carefully considered, and that all we have said will be taken into account so that we may have a more successful result at the Report stage.
LORD DERWENT: I will return to the noble Lord's Amendment, to cut out the words "a chief inspector acting", and to substitute "except for supervising or assisting". The Amendment then

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goes on, "no person holding", and I think that if the noble Lord will look at it again he will find that anyone can supervise. I would ask him to look at his own Amendment again to see whether, in fact, that is not what it means.
LORD LATHAM: It is not what it is intended to mean.
LORD DERWENT: What it is intended to mean is something quite different. I really think that is what it means, and it is for that reason I must resist the Amendment. If the noble Lord at the next stage, having seen what I have said about it, will put down another Amendment we can re-argue it. But on this one I am, in fact, advised that anyone can supervise. So I do suggest that the noble Lord will do what I have said and have a look at the drafting again and see if I am not right. If I am right, clearly, it must not be accepted.
LORD LATHAM: Let us be fair to each other. The noble Lord has undertaken to reconsider his Amendment. I will do the same as regards my Amendment to the Amendment.
LORD DERWENT: I believe that ours is right.
LORD LATHAM: Is the noble Lord's proposal withdrawn?
LORD DERWENT: I only suggested that the noble Lord should have a look at his drafting; that it means something different from what he thought.
LORD LATHAM: The noble Lord said he would have a look at the Amendment and the clause, as amended, because apparently he is not certain that it meets the points that have been made by myself and my noble friend Lord Stonham.
LORD DERWENT: One must be very careful in using the phrase, "have another look", but at this moment I am myself convinced that our Amendment meets the case; but I will, of course, look at it again, and, if it does not, will let the noble Lord know.
LORD LATHAM: You look, and I will look.
LORD STONHAM: While the noble Lord is looking, I should be grateful if
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he would read it as it would run with my noble friend's Amendment included, which will be:
"…except for supervising or assisting in the supervision of such a service as aforesaid, no person holding office as an inspector…"
and so on. That surely means that a person holding office as an inspector can supervise or assist, and it is, therefore, quite impossible to say that there would be no supervision by a qualified person.
LORD DERWENT: I did not say that. I said that anyone other than an inspector could supervise, but not a chief inspector; and I explained that we believe, as a matter of policy, that the chief inspector is the only person who should be allowed this authority.
LORD STONHAM: Does not a chief inspector hold office as an inspector? Does not "chief inspector" embrace an inspector in this context? I should have thought in this context it did. He is an inspector of weights and measures.
LORD DERWENT: No; he does not.
LORD LATHAM: In the circumstances, on the understanding that we both do some looking, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment to Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 43, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 44 to 47 agreed to.
Clause 48:
General powers of inspection and entry
48.—
(7) Nothing in this Act shall authorise any inspector to stop any vehicle on a highway.
4.58 p.m.
LORD STONHAM LORD STONHAM moved to leave out subsection (7). The noble Lord said: We seek to delete subsection (7) from Clause 48, because, in our view, it is going to place a very serious handicap on inspectors of weights and measures whose duty it is to ensure that goods being delivered where there is a weight requirement are of the correct weight or weights which they are said to be. Subsection (7), which we wish to delete, goes out of its way to say, in effect, that an inspector shall not stop a vehicle on a highway.
There is, of course, nothing in the Bill which specifically authorises him to stop such vehicles, and it might therefore be said that subsection (7) is superfluous. It seems to us, however, that its inclusion in the Bill is to draw attention to the fact; as it were, to deprive the inspector of his freedom as a civilian to request the driver of the vehicle to stop and to call on the services of a constable, for example, to cause the vehicle to be stopped for the purpose of the inspector's duties under the Bill when it becomes an Act.
Inspectors have had, for over 70 years, under local authority by-laws which are repealed in this Bill, powers to stop vehicles delivering coal. In another place Amendments were moved to continue these powers. We are not moving any such Amendments, but we are desirous of removing this subsection (7), which is in effect a penal clause on inspectors and a handicap. Therefore, we prefer the Bill, I think quite rightly, to be silent on this particular point. In our view, the presence in this Bill of this subsection deliberately, and quite unnecessarily, places a handicap on inspectors who are attempting to carry out their duties of protecting the public from a particularly mean type of fraud, a fraud which is practised mainly on poor people.
Inspectors are allowed by the Bill to check weights when a vehicle is stopped, and for the Bill to underline that they are virtually not to stop lorries plays into the hands of the crafty and unscrupulous delivery men. I do not mean they are all crafty and unscrupulous, but some of them unfortunately are. Some even have the inspectors' car numbers pinned up inside their cabs, even written down the reverse way so that they can recognise them in the driving mirror. Must we go out of our way in a Bill like this to handicap the inspectors and help the crooks? I have had an example sent to me, for instance, of loads of sand and ballast: 3,911 loads were tested and 459 were wrong weight. This is not a small matter. It was not just one odd one, but some 12½ per cent., one out of every eight loads, were wrong weight.
It is no good arguing, as the noble Lord does—I usually try to give his arguments first—that the inspector can follow the van to the depôt. If he did that, the bags would be changed; therefore it
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would not be any protection at all. I noticed in another place that one of the Joint Parliamentary Secretaries, in answering this particular point, uttered as abject a lot of nonsense as I have ever listened to. He suggested that the inspector could stop a policeman and convince the constable that the lorry ought to be stopped and go into all sorts of technical arguments. The lorry would be miles away while that was going on. I think the Government have made a mistake in including subsection (7) in the Bill. It is not necessary, because the inspectors do not have any powers specifically to stop vehicles; and, at the same time, it is wrong to handicap them in doing their duty by specifically saying in effect that they must not do so. I hope, therefore, the Government will agree to delete this subsection. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 49, line 37, leave out subsection (7).—(Lord Stonham.)
LORD DERWENT: May I, before anyone else speaks on this, make certain I have the point right? I understood that in the other place the suggestion was that this power which the inspectors have now should be maintained. As I understand it, it is not the wish of the noble Lord that they should be given power to stop vehicles; he only wants the deletion of the provision which says that they cannot.
LORD STONHAM: That is right. I want to delete this subsection, which says:
"Nothing in this Act shall authorise any inspector to stop any vehicle on a highway."
That is what I want taken out.
BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY: I hope very much we shall get somewhere on this matter to-night. I cannot quite make out why the Government have been so adamant towards this whole matter all through the passage of the Bill in another place. Obviously I know the reasons they have given, but I am somewhat mystified, because I have not been able to find any body of opinion which agrees with the Government on their attitude. I think that what makes my statement more important is that I am not referring to political opinion. I cannot find any opinion, whether among consumers or weights and measures authorities or the trade or the distributors, which agrees with the Government on this particular matter.

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The noble Lord, Lord Derwent, was quite correct in the challenge, or statement, he just made to my noble friend Lord Stonham about the Amendment which was moved in another place to Clause 48, which is not the same Amendment, to my regret, that we are moving to-day. As the Committee knows, in another place an Amendment to Clause 48 was discussed which gave inspectors of weights and measures power, for the purposes of carrying out their duties under this Bill, to stop at all reasonable times a vehicle carrying solid fuel for sale or delivery to a purchaser. This suggestion was not made once, as I am sure the noble Lord knows, but it kept cropping up right through the debates in another place. It was turned down by the Government as recently as March 25; that was the last time we had any comment from them on it.
During that time a great deal of correspondence came my way on this particular matter. It came my way because of a general interest in the consumer, and it reached me from consumer organisations. It also came my way, as I have said before in this House, because of an interest I should declare, as Chairman of the Domestic Coal Consumers' Council. But the point I really wish to emphasise is this: that that Domestic Coal Consumers' Council on a matter like this represents a most responsible body of opinion. It comprises representatives of consumers of solid fuel, of distributors, both private and co-operative traders, of the National Coal Board and of the Gas Council. Perhaps I might add to that list something I think the noble Lord knows very well, and that is that among the consumers' representatives are included a chief inspector of weights and measures and a number of local authority representatives. All these people are in close touch with their authorities' weights and measures inspectors.
In the Domestic Coal Consumers' Council I have always been pleased, because I think it is right, that in the discussions we have particular viewpoints expressed on what I might call a sectional basis, and never on a political one. I have never heard anybody in that Council agree with the viewpoint of the Government on this particular matter. In so far as the Government's refusal on March 25 to accept the Amendment in another place is concerned, I did not find
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anybody who was disposed to go along with the Government on what they were proposing to do—to withdraw from inspectors the right which they had in the past to stop vehicles.
I should have thought here that this was something which might have been given more thought by the Government. I myself raised it on Second Reading but, with due respect to the noble Earl opposite, because he had not a great deal of notice to deal with this, we did not get a considered reply, and I am greatly hoping that the noble Lord to-night will not give us the reply which the Parliamentary Secretary gave in another place. I have a reason for saying that—namely, that that reply which was given in another place I brought before my Council, without any comment from myself, and I had no idea what their decision would be. These people, who really do know what they are talking about on this particular matter, were not disposed to accept the reply of the Minister, and, furthermore, they did not agree with it.
I have here a letter from a chief inspector of weights and measures in one of our largest cities. I want to tell the Committee and the noble Lord what is in it. I do not wish to give the name of the chief inspector because I have not asked for permission to do so, but I am quite willing to show the Minister the letter afterwards; I think it is most important. He has been talking about the efforts of the coal trade to deal with that minority of traders, referred to by my noble friend Lord Stonham, who are guilty of offences; and the chief inspector goes on to say to me—I quote:
"Thus, when greater power is sought by trade and inspector alike, the Government seeks to sweep away one of the most important powers in coal supervision so that a dishonest dealer may in the future just drive away out of the local authority area as the inspector approaches."
Then this inspector gave me various examples of where the coal merchant's delivery man had attempted to do that and had been prevented from doing so—subsection (7) was not then in operation.
The chief inspector goes on to say:
"Assuming Clause 48(7) becomes law, I am morally obliged, as the officer responsible to the city's ratepayers for commodity control, to find some way to circumvent its provisions. At the moment, I foresee that during the bad months of the year, from December to March, I shall have to ask for uniformed

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police to be seconded for duty in each of our patrol vans, and I am of opinion that Parliament never intended that such action should be necessary to implement the housewives' charter."
Then he throws one grain of comfort to the noble Lord, I think, when he says that
"…the Bill produces some positive improvement in consumer protection, but the negative effect of Clause 48(7), particularly in large industrial cities, cancels out the positives to such an extent that I consider that the protective service which I provide in this city under present legislation is better than that which is envisaged should this controversial clause become law."
I would suggest that if a chief inspector of weights and measures writes to that effect it is something which should be taken into consideration.
I really take the viewpoint that this Amendment put forward by my noble friends and myself does not go far enough, but I thought that I would be moderate this afternoon and see whether we could get a grain of comfort from the Government on this particular matter. I hope that the noble Lord realises that this is a matter which the industry, the distributors and the local authorities feel strongly about, and which they are not willing to let drop; and, if the noble Lord could look at this and could give us some hope to-day, I think it would be much appreciated.
LORD DERWENT: The noble Baroness has put me in a most extraordinarily difficult position. I came here prepared to answer at length what I believed was behind this Amendment, because I thought it was going to rest, irrespective of what it said, on a mistake in drafting—therefore I apologise to the noble Lord, Lord Stonham—and was going to ask for powers that would enable these inspectors to stop lorries. That in fact is the basis of the speech of the noble Baroness. I do not think that on this particular Amendment I should go into my answer to that one; I shall deal purely with the Amendment on the Marshalled List. I am in some difficulty—
BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY: May I just interrupt the noble Lord to say that I hope he will deal with what I hoped was quite a large part of what I was saying—namely, this statement from
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the chief inspector, which deals solely with leaving out subsection (7)?
LORD DERWENT: It purports to do so, but of course it deals with the wider question of how to stop lorries, and that really is not the Amendment on the Marshalled List. I want to explain my difficulty about this Amendment to the noble Lord. It is not quite so easy as he thinks. If we accepted this Amendment it would leave the whole question in the air. In the ordinary way that would not particularly matter, because if they had never had this power and you leave the matter in the air they would not assume they had got it. But if one accepts that, then having had the power to stop, they may assume they still have that power while in fact they do not have it. Moreover, if they tried to stop a vehicle, whether this subsection were in the Bill or not, and the driver refused to stop, the position is that he could refuse to stop unless one could prove that he knew who was trying to stop him, which is an almost impossible thing to prove; there is no power to stop him under the Bill. There is no such power under the Road Traffic Act. Under the Road Traffic Act the only people with power to stop are police constables in uniform. I agree that this does not take away, or give, a power in this clause, but we are of opinion that it leaves the matter so much in the air that if we agreed to this Amendment it might lead to a considerable amount of trouble.
I say frankly that I thought this was a mistake in drafting and I was prepared to meet the much wider case which the noble Baroness has put. At the moment I cannot accept it for reasons which I have stated. I want to have another look at this in view of what the noble Lord said. I would be greatly obliged if he would withdraw this Amendment, let me have another look at it, and let me write to him as to what effect we really feel it will have, leaving the matter in the air. Then, if he wishes to put down another or different Amendment, I can re-argue the matter later.
BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY: May I raise a point while my noble friends on the Front Bench are making up their minds? My information is that the noble Lord opposite is not correct. I am informed that, contrary

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to what the Parliamentary Secretary said in another place, and what I believe the Minister has now repeated, that only a police officer in uniform should be able to stop a vehicle, Section 224 states—I quote
"…it shall be lawful far a person authorised by a highway authority…",
which is not the same thing.
LORD STONHAM: I must inform my noble friend that I had made up my mind some time ago, but I was consulting my noble friend Lord Latham to see whether he wanted to intervene. I would just put these points, first of all. There was no mistake in the drafting of my Amendment.
LORD DERWENT: No, that was my misunderstanding.
LORD STONHAM: My speech was entirely directed to the Amendment. I cannot once recall having put down an Amendment and then attempting to discuss some other Amendment which had no relation to it, so I am arguing only for the Amendment which I have moved. The position to-day, prior to the passing of this Bill, is that inspectors have the right to stop coal lorries, and only coal lorries. That is the only right they have. The only other right the inspector has is that once a vehicle has stopped he can weigh anything on it if he wants to do so; but the only lorry he can stop as of right is a coal lorry. Because of the repeal of local by-laws, that power would be taken away.
The position is—and here I am going to quote the actual words of the Parliamentary Secretary in another place—they have [OFFICIAL REPORT, Commons, Standing Committee B, January 29. 1963, col. 531]:
"…power to request the police, as the honourable Member and I have, but I must insist that the inspector should not have the power to compel the police to stop a vehicle."
Of course they have not; I was not asking for that:
"The final decision must rest with the police when they have heard the inspector's case and decided, in view of road conditions and the inspector's case, whether they will co-operate."
And I suppose they will have time to fill up their pools coupons while the lorry is scampering off and getting away with it!
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Therefore there is no doubt whatever about the position. All I am saying in my Amendment is this. I am not asking for the inspectors to have any powers in this matter. I am only asking the Government not to draw attention to the fact that they have no powers. It is as simple as that. I hope that after more cogitation, perhaps at the next stage, the noble Lord will accept the Amendment, which to me seems unanswerable. If he will write to me we will consider his argument, but I am almost certain that we will put the Amendment down on Report.
LORD DERWENT: One difficulty is the question of leaving matters in the air. If the noble Lord would look at Clause 48(1) he will see:
"Subject to the production if so requested of his credentials, an inspector may…"
Then you go to the end of paragraph (a), which says:
"inspect and test any weighing or measuring equipment which is…used for trade or in the possession of any person or upon any premises for such use."
I am told that it is arguable that "premises" can be a vehicle, and that is another thing I want to look at. If that is the case—and I am told that it is arguable—it may be necessary to have this subsection. For that reason I would not think of accepting it now, because it has other implications. I will look at the implications and let the noble Lord know. He is then perfectly at liberty to take any other steps he wants to.
LORD LATHAM: Why are the Government concerned to interfere with what has proved to be a satisfactory practice for many years? Why give the cheat a kind of charter of liberty by saying that there is no power? There is the power of tradition and there is the power of honesty.
LORD DERWENT: This position has not been in force for many years, because up to the passing of this Bill the inspector has the right to stop a coal lorry, and under this Bill it is taken away.
BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY: May I have an answer to my two questions, if the noble Lord would give me them? Am I not correct in assuming

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that Section 224 of the Road Traffic Act states that
"it shall be lawful for a person authorised by a highway authority"
to do this, and that therefore it is incorrect to say that only a policeman can do it? The second point—and I am sorry if I am being stupid—is that the chief inspector has told me that if subsection (7) remains in this clause it means that a dishonest dealer can in future just drive away out of the local area if the inspector approaches.
LORD DERWENT: Whether subsection (7) is in or out of the Bill, he can in fact drive away out of the local authority area. It makes not the slightest difference to his ability to drive out of the area, because under this Bill the power of stopping the lorry, if moving, is taken away. If it is stationary and the inspector comes up and he then tries to get away, he is committing an offence. The Road Traffic Act gives a general power to stop vehicles on the highway only to a police constable in uniform and a limited power, not to stop "a vehicle", but to stop traffic for school crossing patrols. I think I am correct in that.
BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY: I am quoting the actual words.
LORD DERWENT: He could stop it to be weighed.
BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY: Yes, I know.
LORD DERWENT: That is an important part of the Road Traffic Act, but the general power is given only to a police constable in uniform, who can stop a vehicle as well as traffic, and a general power to stop traffic—which is not quite the same thing—in regard to school patrol crossings.
BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY: I am sorry, but I am not going to let the noble Lord get away on that basis. What the noble Lord says is quite correct, but I think it is rather a slanted interpretation. I am not being offensive. My understanding is that many inspectors appointed under the Road Traffic Act, 1960, by their local authorities use this Section 224 for the purpose intended, which is the purpose mentioned by the noble Lord, and there appears to be no
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reason why they should not use it for the purpose of stopping coal lorries. It is done. It is not only by policemen.
LORD DERWENT: I am sorry, I am not trying to get out of this, but, as I read the section, they can stop it to allow a vehicle or any trailer drawn thereby to be weighed, either laden or unladen. That is actually the vehicle itself. It is not a general power of stopping which the highway authority can give.
LORD STONHAM: This discussion has been quite valuable. I am interested in Lord Derwent's suggestion that a motor vehicle may be "premises". When he thinks it out, he will find that a lorry is a motor vehicle so long as it is moving, and "premises" when it stops. What we are concerned with is the right of an inspector to stop.
LORD DERWENT: I will look at it.
LORD STONHAM: I think we shall come to agreement at the next stage, at least on that lesser point. In view of the assurances given to look at it again, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 48 agreed to.
Clauses 49 and 50 agreed to.
Clause 51:
Prosecution of offences
51.—(1) In England and Wales, proceedings for any offence under this Act or any instrument made there under shall not be instituted except by or on behalf of a local weights and measures authority of the chief officer of police for a police area.
5.29 p.m.
EARL FORTESCUE EARL FORTESCUE moved, in subsection (1), after the second "or" to insert:
"in the case of an offence under section 45 of this Act".
The noble Earl said: On behalf of my noble friend Lord Milverton, I beg to move the next Amendment. It is considered unnecessary that a chief officer of police should be empowered to prosecute weights and measures offences. Such a provision may have been necessary some time ago, but with the enactment of the present Bill, containing increased powers of enforcement and control generally over weights and measures offences, and the development

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of an efficient and experienced local weights and measures administration, it is submitted that there is no case for the conferment of general prosecuting powers of this kind upon police officers.
Police officers are not qualified as inspectors of weights and measures; nor are they responsible to the weights and measures authorities. The Board of Trade take the view that it is useful to give this power to the police, since there may be cases where local weights and measures authorities wish to pass a case to the police for prosecution because additional offences have been committed. It is submitted, however, that where, for example, a question of larceny or fraud arises in addition to an offence against a weights and measures enactment, there is no reason why joint prosecutions should not be undertaken by the police and the weights and measures authority together. There may be a case for the police to prosecute an inspector of weights and measures who commits an offence under Clause 45. But apart from this special case it is considered that the prosecuting powers under the Bill should be vested in the weights and measures authority acting through their own inspectors. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 50, line 32, after ("or") insert ("in the case of an offence under section 45 of this Act").—(Earl Fortescue.)
LORD DERWENT: Will noble Lords opposite allow me to deal with Amendments Nos. 29, 30 and 31 together, because they all deal with the same subject and are related points? Of course, this being a Committee stage noble Lords can take up my remarks afterwards. Subsection (1) of Clause 51 provides that proceedings for an offence under the Bill, or any instrument made under it, are to be instituted only by or on behalf of a local weights and measures authority or by a chief officer of police for a police area. The three Amendments would have the effect of removing, and in one case limiting, the power of the police to institute proceedings. One Amendment seeks to give the Board of Trade this power, and another seeks to give it to the chief inspector of weights and measures as well as to the local authority. So all three Amendments really deal with the question: who should be allowed to prosecute?
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May I first refer to the question of the powers of the police to institute proceedings? They already have this power under existing law, and the Board have no evidence that the powers of the police to prosecute weights and measures offences have ever caused any difficulties. On the contrary, they have evidence that the police have prosecuted weights and measures offences, and have even, on occasion, been requested to do so by the local authority. Generally speaking, this has been where some other offence or offences have been committed by the same person, and it has therefore been convenient for the police to prosecute in all the offences. That has been the usual case when the police have been asked to prosecute on behalf of the local authority.
The real point is this. What appears at first sight to be a straightforward weights and measures offence may, on investigation, reveal facts which indicate the existence of much more serious offences—for example, larceny or conspiracy to defraud—which the police are the proper authorities to handle. As my honourable friend the Parliamentary Secretary said in the other place when this matter was discussed there, it is particularly in these circumstances that the powers of the police to prosecute are necessary, when offences other than weights and measures offences are also involved. There have been a number of cases of this kind, and the evidence has been handed over by the local authority to the police who have prosecuted, with the weights and measures inspector appearing in court as a witness for the prosecution. That has happened quite often.
LORD STONHAM: Would the noble Lord allow me to interrupt? Even if he accepted our Amendments, there would be nothing to prevent a local authority from handing over certain matters to the police for prosecution.
LORD DERWENT: May I go on with the argument on the three Amendments? As to the Board of Trade being authorised to institute proceedings, as is proposed in one of the Amendments, the Government believe that the proper authorities to prosecute for weights and measures offences are normally the local weights and measures authorities, and in exceptional circumstances the police. We see

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no reason to extend to the Board of Trade the power to prosecute.
The proposal in Amendment No. 30, to give specifically to chief inspectors of weights and measures the power to prosecute, is unnecessary. The power given by this clause to local authorities may be delegated by them to chief inspectors or other persons authorised to act on local authorities' behalf. The terms of Clause 41 make it clear that the chief inspector, who is authorised by his local authority to prosecute for an offence under this Bill, has power to do so. For these reasons I ask the House to reject the Amendment which we are talking about, which is the first Amendment.
EARL FORTESCUE: In view of the Minister's statement, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD LATHAM LORD LATHAM moved, in subsection (1), to omit "chief officer of police for a police area" and to insert "Chief Inspector of Weights and Measures". The noble Lord said: May I move Amendment No. 30 and, like the Minister, embrace in my submissions Amendment No. 31? As the noble Lord the Minister will know, this matter was dealt with in December, 1960, in conection with the first Bill. If I may say so with the appropriate respect, the Minister has advanced no new argument against the Amendments as compared with those which were forthcoming in December, 1960, through the agency of the noble Earl, Lord Dundee. We still press for the deletion of the power to the police to institute proceedings.
For the most part, this weights and measures legislation is highly technical, and its purpose is to control trade and trading practices, rather than the punishment of criminals. I would not give an unrestrained interpretation of that, however. It is strongly felt that the power to institute proceedings should be restricted to bodies advised by experts who are qualified and experienced in trade practices, and able to evaluate the propriety of prosecution or otherwise. For this reason it is urged that the power to institute proceedings should be restricted to local weights and measures authorities, to the Board of Trade and
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to persons acting on behalf of those authorities.
It may be argued that the police have had all these powers since 1926, but there was a good reason for this in 1926 inasmuch as certain police authorities were then also responsible for the administration of the Weights and Measures Acts. So far as is known, this arrangement now persists only in the case of one authority, and it is understood that that authority is in course of changing over to civilian administration. Inquiries have been made of the Institute of Weights and Measures Administration into the extent to which the police have exercised their powers. So far as can be ascertained from an exhaustive inquiry, there have been no police prosecutions under the Weights and Measures Acts during the past five years. I was therefore a little surprised to hear the noble Lord the Minister say that prosecutions had been numerous. I think that was the word he used.
LORD DERWENT: I said that there have been cases of this kind. Those are the words I used.
LORD LATHAM: I thought the noble Lord qualified it by saying that there had been a number of cases. I wrote down the word "number".
LORD DERWENT: There have been a number of cases of this kind.
LORD LATHAM: However, it seems to me that there is an unanswerable case for regarding this as a civilian procedure, and I hope that, on reflection, the Minister may be able to accept the Amendments. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 50, line 32, leave out from ("the") to end of line 32 and insert ("Chief Inspector of Weights and Measures").—(Lord Latham.)
5.40 p.m.
LORD DERWENT: I am sorry; but as to the case of the chief inspector, it is not necessary for it to go into the Bill; the local authority can make him a prosecuting authority, in effect, so we need not worry about that side of the Amendment. As to the Board of Trade, there seems to be no particular reason why they should have this power, which they have never needed and do

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not want to exercise. The matter which is really of substance in these Amendments is this question of the police. We believe that there have been a number of cases—I do not say a great number, but a number of cases—and it has been found necessary. If there had been any mishandling by the police of any of these cases, or unwarranted interference with weights and measures authorities by the police, then I should say that we would look at it; but all the evidence is on one side. These powers have not been used very often, but they have been used. Nobody has ever complained about the way the police have behaved: that they have taken prosecutions which should have been taken by local authorities, and so on. I am sorry; I must resist the Amendment.
LORD LATHAM: I am surprised that the noble Lord should go on talking about "a number of cases".
LORD DERWENT: "A" number of cases.
LORD LATHAM: Not within the last five years—after the most diligent inquiry.
LORD DERWENT: I am afraid I have not got that information with me.
LORD LATHAM: I have given the information to the Committee, and it is in direct conflict with your own.
LORD STONHAM: I hope that the noble Lord will study this a bit more. I am not disputing what he has said about the chief inspector. It may well be that he can be empowered by his local authority to prosecute, and I do not doubt that in the great majority of cases, as of now, the chief inspector will be the operative prosecutor. But this is a matter which goes deeper than that. The weights and measures authorities, and certainly the weights and measures inspectorate, feel that this change is not only entirely unnecessary and unjustified but is an actual affront to them. Now inquiries have been made in order to get the facts right on this point which my noble friend Lord Latham twice pressed, and, so far as we are aware—and it will be up to the noble Lord to correct us if we are wrong—there have, in fact, been no police prosecutions in weights and measures matters for five years. More than that, the old police powers in this matter came
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under the Act of 1926, when indeed the old weights and measures Statutes were really common informer Statutes.
My understanding of the position at present is that the only remaining police authority for weights and measures purposes is in Lancashire—only one—and that will presumably disappear. With the disappearance of that authority as a weights and measures authority will disappear the need for the chief officer of police to have any powers of any kind under the Weights and Measures Act. It seems an extraordinary time, when police powers have virtually died out completely in weights and measures matters, now to reintroduce them in a new Statute. I really cannot see any justification for it. The noble Lord made quite a point of those cases where, apart from a weights and measures offence, there was some other felony which, of course, the police would have to deal with: but the police would deal with that in any case because it would have to be referred to them by the local authority. There is no question about it.
I would ask the noble Lord to consider the reverse side of the medal. The police have a great many duties, but it is impossible for them, even chief officers of police, to have great knowledge, skill and experience in weights and measures matters. They are matters as to which the weights and measures inspectorate have to undergo long training and acquire great experience over the years. It might well be possible—indeed, it could arise—that an over-zealous young constable, having read one or two facts about the Weights and Measures Act, might cause considerable difficulties, merely through a lack of knowledge. I do not think—and the activity going on prompts me to think I am right—that the noble Lord has really considered this point. Obviously, he is not very well briefed on the number of prosecutions by chief officers of police in weights and measures matters; he is not very well briefed on the number of police authorities still continuing weights and measures powers; and he has put forward only one point which can be shot down immediately, and that is that some weights and measures offences have other offences which are police matters mixed up with them. If that is the case—and I am quite sure that it does arise on occasion—then what would happen

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immediately would be that the local authority would call in the police in regard to those offences which were not strictly weights and measures matters; they were felonies of some other kind, and would obviously be dealt with by the police.
I do not think that in this matter we have really had any answer at all, except what amounts to saying that the Government have made up their mind, not having thought very much about it, and are not prepared or are not ready to answer the facts that we have put forward. I can only suggest to my noble friend who moved the Amendment that we may have to consider a strong protest about this unless we can get an assurance from the other side that the matter will be looked at again.
LORD DERWENT: May I now give the information for which I sent and for which the noble Lord asked? The statistics quoted by the noble Lord, Lord Latham, related only to county councils and county boroughs, not to the many other weights and measures authorities. Even the county councils and county boroughs have in the last five years passed cases to the police. I have here a questionnaire which was sent out to county councils and boroughs, and these are some of the questions and answers:
"Has your authority, within the past five years, passed to the police any report by an inspector of weights and measures disclosing, in addition to weights and measures offences, other offences such as larceny? If so, state precisely what action was taken by the police".
There were 14 county councils which said, "Yes", and 17 boroughs said, "Yes". Another questions is:
"Has your authority, within the past five years, instituted any proceedings under the Weights and Measures Act in which police officers have been the principal witnesses?"
Of the county councils, four of them said they had, and two of the boroughs. Then:
"Has your authority within the past five years, prosecuted a weights and measures offence in the same court as police have prosecuted the same offender for other kinds of offences committed at the same time?"
Of the county councils, six of them said, "Yes", as did five of the boroughs.
As regards the action the police might take on their own—this is a different one, but I will read this one, too:
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"How many informations, if any, for weights and measures offences have been laid in the area of your authority by police officers during the last five years?"
The 24 county councils which were asked replied, "None"; 24 boroughs were asked, and the reply was, "None".
LORD STONHAM: That is confirmation.
LORD DERWENT: This is interfering with the weights and measures authority's work: that is the suggestion put forward. The other cases were where, in fact, the police had had cases of their own and had been asked to join them with the others or to pass them on. The police do prosecute, and there is no reason to take this power away from them. It has been working satisfactorily, and there has been no difficulty. We really do not see why we should alter it now.
LORD LATHAM: That information proves the accuracy of the figures given by my noble friend and myself: that there were no prosecutions which were purely for offences under the Weights and Measures Act and others were associated with other offences.
LORD DERWENT: There was none associated with county councils and county boroughs, but there were some—I am afraid I do not have the number—with the other weights and measures authorities.
LORD LATHAM: What you need is a computer.
On Question, Amendment negatived.
Clause 51 agreed to.
Clauses 52 and 53 agreed to.
Clause 54 [Regulations and orders]:
5.51 p.m.
LORD FARINGDON: I do not think this Amendment needs very much explanation. It is intended to require that the Board, before making any regulations under Clause 47, shall consult with weights and measures authorities who, with their inspectors, will be controlled by the orders under this clause. I must say that it seems to me a little difficult to understand why this provision has not in fact been put into subsection (2) of this same clause. However, for some reason best known to Her Majesty's Government

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it has been omitted, and I hope very much that the noble Lord will feel inclined to accept this Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 52, line 24, at the end of line 24 insert—
("(6) Before making any regulation under Section 47 of this Act, the Board shall consult with and consider any representations with respect to the subject-matter of the regulation made to the Board by such organisations as appear to the Board to be representative of local weights and measures authorities and inspectors.")——(Lord Faringdon.)
LORD DERWENT: This follows the usual practice, which I will explain. This empowers the Board of Trade to make general administrative regulations with respect to the manner of performance by local weights and measures authorities and their inspectors of their functions under the Bill. What, in fact, the Bill says is that important matters—and this is the usual practice, I might say—are dealt with by order and consultation is compulsory. Minor matters are made by regulation and it is not the practice to make consultation compulsory. But, in this particular case, although we do not want to vary the usual method of dealing with it, I will repeat an undertaking given by my right honourable friend in another place that consultation with the local authority associations and the Institute of Weights and Measures Administration will take place except for matters obviously of no importance. But otherwise those consultations will take place on the regulations. On the orders they have to take place. I hope that that will be satisfactory.
LORD FARINGDON: I thank the noble Lord for that reply. I am perfectly satisfied. I would apologise to the Committee for moving this Amendment. If I had read Hansard of another place I should have seen the answer given there.
LORD DERWENT: I may have put it more clearly.
LORD FARINGDON: I congratulate the noble Lord. I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 54 agreed to.
Clauses 55 to 60 agreed to.
Clause 61 [Transitional saving for effect of certain orders as to milk or bread]:
LORD DERWENT LORD DERWENT moved, in subsection (1), to leave out all words from "shall" to "are" and to insert instead:
"until the repeal of that Act by virtue of section 63(1)(b) of the Act have effect subject to the amendments hereafter specified in this section; and the Bread Order 1953, the Bread (Amendment No. 2) Order 1956 and Article 4 of the Milk (Great Britain) Order 1962".
The noble Lord said: With the permission of the Committee, I will take Amendments Nos. 33 and 34 together. The effect of these Amendments is to allow milk to be sold generally in the quantities of one-third of a pint with effect from six months after the enactment of the Bill, provided that the quantity is marked on the container. Your Lordships will be aware that at the present time, milk may be pre-packed for sale only in half-pints or multiples of half a pint except in the case of milk for school children which may be in one-third pints.
Schedule 4, Part V, would allow milk to be sold generally in a quantity of one-third of a pint as well as in the present quantities; but Schedule 4 will not come into force until two years after the passing of the Bill. What these Amendments will do, therefore, is to bring forward by eighteen months the date from which the one-third pint size may be sold. These Amendments are moved in accordance with an undertaking given by the Government in another place. As the Committee may be aware, there was in that place discussion about the problems of milk vending machines and Amendments were moved with the object of allowing sales from vending machines in quantities other than those specified for retail sale generally. The Government felt bound to resist those Amendments. We take the view that vending machines are only one form of retail sale and we felt that it was wrong in principle and perhaps, almost as important, unenforceable in practice, to differentiate in the Bill between vending machines and other forms of retail sale.
For these reasons my right honourable friend the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade opposed the Amendments in Standing Committee in another place which sought to exempt vending machine sales from the requirement to sell milk in specified quantities. On Report in another

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place an Amendment was moved to allow sales of milk vending machines only in one-third pint quantities six months after the Bill is enacted. On that occasion my right honourable friend said that, while he could not accept that Amendment (which would differentiate between sales from vending machines and other sales), if it were the general wish that the Bill should allow the earlier introduction of the one-third pint as a permitted quantity for all retail sales the Government would be willing to move an Amendment in your Lordships' House to allow one-third pints, provided they were marked with their quantity, to be sold through all retail outlets, including vending machines, six months after the Bill came into force. That is the purpose of these two Amendments: to bring forward the date when retail sales of milk may be made in one-third pints. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 57, line 10, leave out from ("shall") to ("are") in line 16 and insert said words.—(Lord Derwent.)
LORD STONHAM: I appreciate that this Amendment is moved to fulfil an undertaking given in another place. It springs from the pressure which was applied in Commttee stage and on Report in another place for an Amendment in respect to milk vending machines to make milk vending an economic possibility or to continue it as such. I imagine that the noble Lord is under the impression that this Amendment permitting the sale of one-third pints will do what he hopes it will. Unhappily, circumstances have changed since this Amendment was discussed in another place, and this Amendment is now practically useless for the purpose for which it was intended. It will be quite unnecessary if the Government accept—as I hope they will—an Amendment which I shall move when we finish discussion on the present Amendment.
I am expressing the views now which have been communicated to me by the Central Milk Distributive Committees, which consist of the Amalgamated Master Dairymen Limited, the Co-operative Union Limited, the National Association of Creamery Proprietors, and the National Dairymen's Association; and similar views have been put forward by the National Farmers' Union. So that
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this is a representative body of opinion, representing all the milk producers and, I believe, all the milk distributors. They are against the noble Lord's Amendment to legalise for all purposes the use of the one-third of a pint container, first, because the introduction of the third of a pint almost certainly will lead to a reduction in the consumption of milk, because customers who may take half a pint will turn to the smaller container; secondly, to pack milk in these small containers, 24 to a gallon, is uneconomic, and thirdly, while third of a pint bottles suitable for children began to be introduced in the early 1930s, there is no reason why a teenager or adult should not drink half a pint. Moreover, they point out that the Hodgson Committee recommended that a third of a pint should be legalised for sale at premises of the ultimate seller but it would remain illegal for prepacked milk to be sold or delivered for sale where the foregoing provisions do not apply.
The earlier Bill we discussed in this House two years ago contained this proposal. At that time, those in favour of the third of a pint—and I was not among them—pointed out that it was a convenient quantity to sell in cafés and canteens. But, since then, the requirement for milk in such places is often dispensed from refrigerated dispensing machines, such as the machines in which four or five gallons of milk are placed in the container and milk is drawn off into individual glasses as required. This is proving very popular and there are 7,000 of these machines in use. Dairymen feel that the use of the third of a pint should be confined, as now, to the milk-in-school scheme and that at this stage in the progress of the dairy industry there is no need to introduce generally this smaller-than-usual sized container, because the industry's efforts are to sell more milk and not less.
Far from reaching the situation which he wishes to meet, the noble Lord's Amendment will deal a serious blow to the farmers, the milk distributors and the public. Though I do not approve the compromise, I fully appreciate the reasons why this Amendment was put forward. It was no longer economically possible to sell half-a-pint of milk in a vending machine for 6d. They had either to change the coin, which was impossible,

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or reduce the quantity. The solution of the ⅓-pint container has been put forward, but that would make the milk too expensive—unfairly so.
The Minister of Agriculture has, in my view, completely destroyed the noble Lord's Amendment. It is astonishing to me that there is not more co-ordination among Government Departments—unless it is that, when one expresses a view, the other Department takes the contrary view. I should not have thought that that was the case with the noble Lord, Lord Derwent. The following letter, dated April 23, was sent by Mr. C. Coffin, of the Ministry of Agriculture, addressed to the Central Milk Distributive Committee:
"When an Amendment on similar lines was discussed during Report stage in the House of Commons, it was suggested than one-third pints should be sold in existing vending machines, which axe designed to take sixpences. I have been asked to let you know that in the Minister's view a price of 6d. for one-third of a pint sold from a vending machine would not in present circumstances be reasonable."—
I do not dispute that, and neither do dairymen. The Minister is right:—
"If it were to be charged, the Minister would feel bound to consider whether to reimpose price control of vending machine sales in line with the warning which on Mr. Hare's instructions, we gave the industry in 1960, when price control was lifted."
This means that milk distributors will not be able to sell one-third pint containers from milk-vending machines because the Minister of Agriculture will not allow them to do so. Therefore, the case for the noble Lord's Amendment is absolutely destroyed.
There has been no demand from anyone for one-third of a pint containers for any purpose other than milk in schools. The only demand for permission to sell a smaller container arises from their proposed use in vending machines, and the Minister of Agriculture has now declared that one-third pint containers cannot be used in vending machines at a charge of 6d. In these circumstances the noble Lord may proceed with his Amendment, and at this stage I am not going to advise my noble friends to vote against it; but it will be absolutely useless for the purpose for which it was intended unless the next Amendment which we shall discuss is accepted. I believe that when he moved this Amendment, to fulfil an assurance given in another place, the
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noble Lord was not aware of this statement from the Minister of Agriculture. I submit that it entirely alters the situation, and I hope that in the light of a totally different situation the noble Lord will think again about this Amendment.
LORD DERWENT: I have no wish to enter into the question of price, because this Bill does not deal with price, except to say that it is no good the noble Lord pretending that unless the price is 6d. these containers could not be sold in vending machines, because that is not so. We have been pressed for many years to allow the one-third-pint. This size will meet the needs of people living alone, of whom it is estimated there are over two million in this country. In 1926, when the Act limited containers to half-pints of multiples of a half-pint, the one-third-pint container had not come into use.
I do not wish to over-state the case, but I find the noble Lord's argument quite staggering, particularly, if I may say so, coming from that side of the House. No distributor is compelled to sell one-third-pints, if he does not want to do so, and the argument that consumers should be compelled to go on taking the half-pint size, even if they want one-third of a pint, in the interests of the trade, is staggering. Dairies need not sell one-third-pints but, if they are prepared to sell them and people want to buy them, why should they be prevented because it is inconvenient to the trade? I ask your Lordships to approve my Amendment.
6.10 p.m.
EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: I think the noble Lord, Lord Derwent, knows that on previous occasions I have had something to say on the question of one-third pint bottles. I am sorry that on those occasions he did not understand me well enough, or he would not, I think, have made the speech that he seems to have made now—I am afraid that I heard only the end of it. This seems to be a question of what he calls the freedom of a person who wants to buy a third of a pint to buy a third of a pint. I should have thought that the Board of Trade would be exceedingly interested in how to cut down the cost of milk to the consumer. Anybody who knows anything about the milk trade knows quite well that one of the biggest factors in this matter now is the question

619
of the delivery. If it is continuously made legal in this way to sell one-third of a pint, then there will perhaps always be a comparatively small number, knowing what the consumption of milk is, of persons living in their houses who will want one-third of a pint of milk.
The costs of delivery to-day are astounding. It is true that supermarkets are coming in and are very much upsetting the general basis of service to the consumer. The consumer, especially if he has a car, likes to bear the burden himself of being the fagger about of the commodities he buys. But the average housewife throughout the country has provided for her, by private and other traders, delivery at the house; and the cost of delivery of general food commodities upon which they rely upon for a daily service is rising tremendously.
There are, as I have said, before illustrations which can be given. The cost of delivery of a loaf of bread, which most customers in the country do not want to carry, is to-day something over 2½d. per loaf on the average of delivery of bread at the door, on a daily service all over the country. If you come to the question on which the Government have to be brought in, as to what is to be the general basis of costs and profit to the milk distributive trade, then you find that the costs of delivery of a third of a pint of milk at the door daily is so tremendous that there is no profit at all, and often a complete loss, on the delivery of a single bottle of a third of a pint. I think this fact ought to be taken into consideration, because the Government have to go into conference every year, it is true from the point of view of the milk trade, unnecessarily late (perhaps I should not say "unnecessarily", because it is partly due to the time taken to get the accounts completed for the period) and then an arrangement has to be come to with the Government as to what is to be the gross margin of profit per gallon for distribution. It rarely exceeds 2d. per gallon gross profit—and when I say "gross profit", I mean after including in the costs the cost of delivery.
Anybody who knows the situation knows that it is becominig increasingly difficulty to get people to work on the delivery; and that is one of the factors. But the other great thing is that, because of the cost of delivery, it is almost
620
impossible for most milk distributors to take it into part of their ordinary distribution. That is quite wrong. It may well be, I suppose, that a considerable amount is sold, and rightly so, in bulk to schools in one-third pint bottles. That is a suitable size, for the child to drink at a particular sitting, and probably if quantity were more it might not always be completely drunk. There has never been any objection to delivering great quantities in bulk of one-third pint bottles to the schools; but when it comes to delivery at the door of one-third pint bottles, there is little left, after meeting the cost of delivery out of the cost of the milk in the bottle.
I am sure that this point has been put up to the Board of Trade over and over again. I cannot for the life of me understand why they do not see the reason of this; because in the end, when it comes down to the question of settling the price of milk in the country, the costs which are then added to the usual cost of delivering a pint, with the occasional half-pint, then even the occasional half-pint and the occasional one-third pint add so much to the cost of delivery that it becomes almost impossible to get the situation which the Board of Trade would wish to get with the milk distributive trade. Those are the facts, and I know them from back to front. I have spent a great deal of my life in dealing with the expansion of milk consumption in this country. I believe that this is a thoroughly stupid and reactionary position and I still hope that the Government will reconsider it. I shall probably come back to it again.
LORD DERWENT: The noble Earl said that he did not hear the beginning of what I said. I realise his point, and I appreciate that I said at the beginning that some dairies may not wish to handle one-third pints and that others may wish to handle them though not to deliver them, because of the cost of delivery. But, of course, nobody is compelled under this Bill or under these two Amendments to sell one-third pints. All these two Amendments do is to bring forward the date on which a third of a pint may be sold. I visualise (I may, in the event, be proved wrong) that most one-third pints will be sold from vending machines or over the counter—I agree with the noble Earl there. But there may be dairies that will be prepared to

621
deliver them; and there may be some that will not want to deal with them at all. But that is not the concern of these Amendments, which merely bring forward the date when one-third pintsmay be sold, generally speaking, in the retail trade.
Resolved in the affirmative, and Amendment agreed to accordingly.
LORD DERWENT: I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 57, line 29, leave out subsection (3) and insert—
("(3) Section 7(1) of the said Act of 1926 shall not apply to milk pre-packed in a quantity of one-third of a pint if the container is so marked as to indicate clearly that it contains that quantity of milk.")—(Lord Derwent.)
Clause 61, as amended, agreed to.
6.26 p.m.
LORD STONHAM LORD STONHAM moved, after Clause 61, to insert the following new clause
Temporary provisions regarding sale of milk in vending machines.
. The Sale of Food (Weights and Measures) Act, 1926 shall have effect (until the repeal of that Act by virtue of section 63(1)(b) of this Act) subject to the addition of the following words at the end of section 7:—
"Nothing in this Act shall prevent any sale by wholesale, or any sale by retail through a vending machine, of pre-packed
I quite see the point the noble Earl was on.
On Question, whether the said Amendment shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 46; Not-Contents, 20.

CONTENTS

Ailwyn, L.

Dilhorne, L. (L. Chancellor.)

Lothian, M.

Albemarle, E.

Ferrers, E.

McCorquodale of Newton, L.

Aldington, L.

Ferrier, L.

Margesson, V.

Allerton, L.

Fortescue, E.

Melchett, L.

Ampthill, L.

Fraser of Lonsdale, L.

Mount Edgcumbe, E.

Auckland, L.

Gage, V.

Napier and Ettrick, L.

Blackford, L.

Goschen, V. [Teller.]

Newton, L.

Bridgeman, V.

Grenfell, L.

Palmer, L.

Colgrain, L.

Hailsham, V. (L. President.)

Perth, E.

Colville of Culross, V.

Hanworth, V.

Rathcavan, L.

Conesford, L.

Hastings, L.

St. Aldwyn, E. [Teller.]

Craigton, L.

Hawke, L.

St. Oswald, L.

Davidson, V.

Horsbrugh, B.

Strathclyde, L.

Denham, L.

Jellicoe, E.

Swinton, E.

Derwent, L.

Lansdowne, M.

Templemore, L.

Devonshire, D.

NOT-CONTENTS

Addison, V.

Hughes, L.

Shepherd, L. [Teller.]

Alexander of Hillsborough, E.

Latham, L.

Stonham, L.

Burton of Coventry, B.

Lindgren, L.

Strabolgi, L.

Champion, L.

Lucan, E. [Teller.]

Summerskill, B.

Crook, L.

Milner of Leeds, L.

Walston, L.

Faringdon, L.

Morrison of Lambeth, L.

Williamson, L.

Henderson, L.

Rusholme, L.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

milk made up in any quantity of fluid ounces whose container is marked with an indication of the number of fluid ounces it contains and with the words 'Not for sale other than in a vending machine'.
And notwithstanding anything in section 66(2) of this Act, this section shall come into force immediately on the passing of this Act."
The noble Lord said: I beg to propose this new clause which will allow the sale of pre-packed milk, provided the container is marked with an indication of quantity and is only for sale from a vending machine. On the previous Amendment the noble Lord, Lord Derwent, said that he was not concerned in any way about price. But on this occasion it is impossible to run away from the situation which has been created by the acceptance of the Amendment to Clause 61. The whole of the dairy industry, farmers and milk retailers alike, and millions of the public, wish to sell and to buy six penny worth of milk from a vending machine. It has proved a great help to farmers and housewives alike. Until recently, it was possible to sell half a pint for 6d., but with recent increases in milk prices it has become

623
impossible economically to do so. The Government have acknowledged this by permitting sales, under the Amendment just accepted, of one-third of a pint. But this is only acceptable if the Amendment which I am now moving, and a consequential Amendment in Schedule 4, are also accepted by the Government. There are two reasons for this: first, the high cost of altering the machines, or the high cost of giving change, and, secondly, the convenience of the customer in keeping the price at 6d.
Even before the Minister of Agriculture said that he would introduce price control of milk if vendors sold a third of a pint for 6d., the National Farmers' Union and all other interested bodies said they did not wish to do so; that it would not be fair; that it would be overcharging; and they were most anxious therefore, and are most anxious, that this Amendment should be accepted. They want to be able to supply a quantity more nearly related to the cost, say, 8 or 9 fluid ounces, and to mark the quantity clearly on the cartons. I would point out that there are already in the Bill similar provisions relating to other commodities. For example, in Schedule 6 there are extensive provisions permitting the sale of coal and coke in non-specified quantities, provided it is pre-packed, and providing also that the intending purchaser is advised of the net contents of the packet. The same obligations would, of course, be willingly accepted by farmers and by the milk industry.
The increasing facility of automatic vending machines to meet consumer needs arising under the modern social pattern of life involves ever-growing labour and capital cost for machine manufacturers, product and packaging manufacturers and for the machine operators, distributors and retailers. Thus, the necessity of stability in product selling through machines may not compare to normal retail selling without considering the exceptional labour and financial implications; and it would be impracticable for economic and technical reasons to vary prices necessitated by a rise in the cost of milk since new and more complicated coin mechanisms to allow for a multiplicity of coins would have to be fitted in all automatic machines selling the quantities laid out in Section 3(a) of Part V to the Schedule
624
of the Bill. And dairymen would have to bear the cost of the rise in price themselves either by keeping the same quantity at a fixed price or by overcharging if they do not—which they will not be allowed to do by the Ministry of Agriculture—or bear a crippling expenditure with regard to the changing of the machine.
I would point out that the sale of liquids by value other than by volume is acceptable in petrol pumps and automatic paraffin vending machines, and it is of increasing social and economic importance to keep the single coin selling price stable and to cover changes in basic costs by varying the quantity in the carton, subject also to the safeguard, as this Amendment proposes, that the quantity must be clearly marked on the carton.
LORD HAWKE: May I interrupt the noble Lord at this point? Does he advise that the quantity should be clearly marked on the outside of the machine as well as on the carton, so that the purchaser knows?
LORD STONHAM: I have not said so in the Amendment, but I am perfectly willing, and I am quite sure the farmers and everybody else selling would be willing, that this should be done. Above all things, they want the purchaser to know the quantity that is being bought, and of course it would be on every carton, and I would agree, too, that it should be on the outside of the machine.
There are more than 6,000 vending machines in use, which have cost some £365 each. It would cost £30 per machine Ito alter the coinage used, and this would not add to the customers' convenience if they had to pay, say 7d., 5½d. or 5d. instead of the nimble 6d. It would also take a very long time to get the machines altered, all to no real purpose at all, unless the apparently stubborn obstinancy of a Government Department serves any real purpose. Weights and measures inspectors would experience no enforcement difficulties, because the cartons would be marked not only with the quantity but with the words "For sale in vending machines only". They could not be sold in any other way. I would point out that the popularity of these machines is indicated by the fact that they have multiplied twelve times in five years and now

625
account for sales of 12 million gallons of milk every year. Unfortunately, with the recent increase in the cost of milk, this development, which has been of great value to farmers, has stopped. Therefore, unless this now clause is accepted there are fears that the trade will be fined, involving serious loss to farmers and loss of convenience to the public.
One of the things which I have said many times during the course of this Bill, and the one we had two years ago, is that we should not knowingly and unnecessarily do something in this Bill which is going to damage or cripple an industry. I do not say that not to accept this Amendment is going to cripple the farming industry, but I do say that it is going to hit them very hard indeed. They cannot afford to have a drastic curtailment in the sales of milk. Nearly half these machines are in factories, works and offices where they perform a catering function. There are a number on railway stations, some in catering-type businesses and many outside dairies, where I personally know of one near my home, and they do perform a very useful function in enabling housewives to get a supply of milk when they run short and the shop is shut. In fact, they supplement the normal home delivery and, of course, provide a very health-giving type of refreshment to passers-by and travellers generally. I would point out that under my proposal there would be complete control as to measure, and there would be complete consumer protection by quantity marking.
When a similar new clause was moved in another place, the Government rejected it because of what I regard as a stubborn adherence to the custom that milk must be sold in standardised quantities. They have since moved away from that point to some extent by making one-third of a pint a standardised quantity, but I hope I have made it clear to the noble Lord, Lord Derwent, that that provision, because it would be overcharging the customer, and because the Ministry of Agriculture has made it clear that they will not allow it, will be of no use at all for the vending of milk through these machines. Therefore, unless he wants to inflict a very serious injury on farming communities he will accept this Amendment.
I would also ask him to look at it from the standpoint of consumer protection,
626
which is the whole basis of the Bill. The Amendment, I submit, wholly satisfies all the principles we are fighting for. It is supported most anxiously by the National Farmers' Union, the Milk Marketing Board and the Central Milk Distributors Committee, which includes the Co-operative Union. I do, therefore, ask the Government to help the farmer and the public by accepting this Amendment so that it can come into operation immediately after the passing of the Act. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 61, insert the said new clause.—(Lord Stonham.)
6.38 p.m.
LORD DERWENT: The purpose of this Amendment is to exempt sales of milk from vending machines, and wholesale sales of pre-packed milk, from the requirement in existing law that milk must be sold in specified quantities. The exemption would be subject to the containers being marked in fluid ounces and with an indication that they were for sale only from vending machines; and that, of course, is a tightening-up of the Amendment which was moved in another place. Under existing law, pre-packed milk must be sold in specified amounts of half-a-pint or multiples thereof. One-third pints are allowed only for schools under the schools milk scheme. Containers need not be marked. Under Schedule 4, Part V, of this Bill, specified quantities will still be required but will permit one-third pints for general sale; and containers will have to be marked. That is the existing position. The proposed new clause would have effect only from the date of the passing of the Bill until Schedule 4 comes into effect. And the Amendment to Schedule 4 would, of course, operate two years after the Bill is passed. I am going to resist this Amendment for the following reasons, and I intend, I am afraid, to do it at some length, because the argument should be clearly stated.
First of all, the obligation to pack certain staple commodities in specific quantities can give very valuable protection to the consumer. Milk is, of course, one of these staple products and it has, for over 30 years, been subject to the requirement that it must be sold in fixed quantities. The Government cannot accept that sales of milk from vending machines or otherwise, should now

627
be exempted from this requirement. The making up and marking of the containers in fluid ounces would not give the consumer anything like the same protection as the specified sizes—half-pint, and so on. I repeat what the noble Lord, Lord Stonham, has just said to us. This Weights and Measures Bill is a very important part of consumer protection. I wonder what the housewife who buys from a vending machine outside a dairy when the dairy is closed will think if she is told she is getting 8 fluid ounces in the carton. Will she realise that it is not half-a-pint? Will she know what she is getting? I very much doubt it. In our view, it would be a retrograde step to weaken this protection. It has been generally suggested on behalf of consumer interests that the specified quantity requirements in the Bill should be extended, not reduced.
Secondly, I resist this Amendment because to exempt sales from vending machines alone from the requirement to pack in specified quantities would breach the general principle, which applies in existing law as well as in the Bill, that specified quantity requirements for particular commodities apply equally to sales from vending machines and to other retail sales. That is the general law, too. If an exemption were allowed for milk sold from vending machines it would be—I was going to say hard, but it would be almost impossible, to see how exemptions for vending machine sales of other goods could be resisted; such things as packets of tea and the other groceries listed in Part VIII of Schedule 4. It would be very difficult to refuse special quantities for those.
Thirdly, although at present milk may be the main commodity sold from vending machines that is subject to such requirements, sales of many other goods through these machines might develop rapidly in the future. We are legislating for the future, not for what has been going on up to now. The new retailing methods change very quickly indeed. Sales through vending machines must not be allowed to become a means of evading requirements in the Bill which have been drawn up to protect the consumer. Fourthly, the issue of principle is this: are we to have one law for trade conducted by human beings and another for
628
trade conducted by machines? Should the law dictate to the machines as it does to human beings, or should the law be dictated to by the machines? In the Government's view, retail trade should be the same whether it is from vending machines or over the counter. We believe that is in the best interests of the consumer.
The noble Lord argued, that coal sold in vending machines is exempt from the specified quantity requirements which apply to most coal sales, and that milk should also be exempt. That is not a valid point. The coal exemption applies not only to vending machines but to all sales up to 60 lb. in a securely closed container. It is not only vending machines; it is a special thing for coal up to 60 lb. A comparable provision to exempt all milk sales below a fixed amount—which would need to be about half-a-pint to meet the point raised by the noble Lord—would have a very much wider impact. For example, it would apply to all over-the-counter sales and to home deliveries, and this would undermine the specified quantity requirements generally for milk.
Price is not a matter with which this Bill is concerned. One would have thought, and one has seen, that it is not beyond the bounds of human ingenuity for the trade to find a way in which machines could charge an appropriate sum for either the one-third or half-pint of milk. Every day of our lives we use machines, where change is given. Either the machine gives change which is then used for the appropriate amount in another slot, or, in other cases, we use 6d. or 1s. and the goods come out with the change attached. If the cost is 5d. the change comes out with the carton. The noble Lord talks as though it is quite impossible: but it is not; it is done all the time. In our view this proposal goes against one of the principles of consumer protection. Commodities such as milk must be sold only in certain quantities, and in no others; and it makes not the slightest difference, in our view, whether it is sold in vending machines, across the counter or by delivery. I am afraid that we shall not give way on this point because we believe that it is most important.
LORD STRABOLGI: I cannot understand the argument of the noble Lord, Lord Derwent, that the same principle

629
should apply to a vending machine as to over-the-counter sales by a human being. Surely the function of a vending machine is quite different. To start with, it is used mainly by people who leave home before the milk arrives and who do not want their milk to lie on the doorstep all day in the hot sun. They prefer to use vending machines when they return in the evening. The quantities which they require are often different. Secondly, the vending machine is often used by people who wish to drink milk—as, indeed, they are being encouraged to do—in the hot summer, possibly in the street, if they are taking a walk or sitting out in the open, and they do not want such a large quantity as half-a-pint. I feel that the noble Lord's argument does not bear close examination if one considers the practical circumstances and the use to which machines are put.
LORD DERWENT: I am afraid that the noble Lord has not understood either my argument or that of the noble Lord, Lord Stonham. We agree that there are many cases—2 million people living alone—who want a lesser amount of milk, and we say that it must be one-third pint or half-a-pint but not some odd amount in fluid ounces.
LORD FRASER OF LONSDALE: I have a natural instinct to support the Government, because I think they are generally more likely to be right than the Opposition. But I am bound to say that I feel the noble Lord, Lord Stonham, with whom I seldom agree, has made out a case which requires more answering than we have yet had from the Front Bench. The noble Lord on the Front Bench asked: Are we to be slaves of machines?—as if that were almost a knock-out for the noble Lords opposite. But surely we are slaves of machines: we cannot escape from the fact. If we are going to use machines, whether they be railways or motor cars, we must operate them as they will operate, and we cannot lightly pass laws to say that they must work differently. It is true that man's ingenuity can make a machine do almost anything, including giving a penny change, or even 5d. change; but to do that costs a great deal of money—so much that the machine becomes, for all practical purposes, either unusable or not worth altering. It is a fact that 6d.
630
is 6d. and 1s. is 1s., and they will remain so until we decimalise, when it is to be presumed 6d. becomes 7·2d. and 1s. becomes 14·4d. That would solve all these problems. There would then be enough money to pay the fanner for half-a-pint of milk.
LORD DERWENT: When we decimalise shall we not have to alter the machines?
LORD FRASER OF LONSDALE: That leads me to the question I wanted to ask the noble Lord, Lord Stonham or the noble Lord, Lord Derwent: whether Lord Stonham's proposal or the Government's proposal is such that, if we do decimalise in the next three or four years, all these machines will have to be altered, because the amount of material in the machine cannot be altered? That appears to be the principle on which the Government are standing—for example, that you must sell ten cigarettes and not nine. Is the principle (I cannot believe that this is so) that you must sell half-a-pint of milk and that you must not sell 8 ounces? I am not quite sure whether 8 fluid ounces are more or less than half-a-pint, just as the noble Lord thinks the housewife would not know. I am sure she would not. But if in fact she found it convenient to get the milk and it was cool and fresh, and the shop was shut, she would say, "Thank God for the milk", and she would not worry whether 8 oz. was more or less than half a pint or a pint—I am not sure which it is even. But surely she will judge by her own instinct whether this commodity is worth having at that place, in those circumstances, for 6d.
We cannot ignore the convenience of using coins; nor can we say, "To hell with these machines. They must be our slaves and must take account of giving change." You can make a machine give change, but only at great cost. I cannot feel at present that the Government are right to resist this. This will have implications much wider than milk; there is no question but that we are moving into a time when automatic vending will relieve men of undue and irksome labour; it is going to be one of the advances in the next few years. I can see it in all kinds of fields. Therefore, before we commit ourselves to this principle that we must sell the commodity only by weight or by

631
specific number rather than to adjust what we sell to the coin, the Government ought to give this matter a little more thought.
LORD DERWENT: To acknowledge the noble Lord's argument he should really have voted against the Bill on Second Reading. One of the main points of this Bill is consumer protection, so that the consumer knows what he is buying and it can be checked. The noble Lord is saying, "To hell with that; let us do what is most convenient"—I am sorry; perhaps he did not use that actual phrase—" If the housewife does not know what she is buying, what on earth does that matter?" That is not a matter for this Amendment, and the noble Lord really should have voted against the Bill on Second Reading.
LORD STONHAM: I think that the noble Lord, Lord Dement, in answer to his noble friend Lord Fraser of Lonsdale, has just uttered a larger untruth or inaccuracy than any that he has used in his speech, because the whole of my speech in moving the Amendment—and the noble Lord, Lord Fraser of Lonsdale, obviously heard it—was devoted to ensuring consumer protection, in that the consumer must know what he or she is buying by quantity in the cartons of milk. Really, the noble Lord's speech is so unrelated to realities and the facts as to be quite frivolous. It has not been produced by the noble Lord, that is obvious, because he himself would not utter such nonsense.
LORD DERWENT: I believe in my case absolutely.
LORD STONHAM: Very well, then; it is remarkable what one can bring oneself to believe. But the noble Lord insisted that the housewife must know what she is buying and that we must have fixed quantities, and therefore we have this magical fixed quantity of one third of a pint. Does the housewife know what one third of a pint is? It is 6⅔ fluid ounces. The noble Lord says that 6⅔ oz. is a fixed magical quantity which the housewife will instantly recognise even if there is to be precisely one-third of a pint; but to sell 8 or 9 fluid ounces is not a fixed recognisable quantity. I took down what he said, that the housewife would not know what she was buying. I will
632
tell the noble Lord that any housewife worthy of the name would be well aware that when she got 9 fluid ounces she was getting more than when she got one third of a pint. That is what would concern her and she would know that she was getting better value for money. The noble Lord said that the requirement to sell in fixed quantities is a great safeguard to the consumer. Greater safeguards to the consumer are those which ensure value for money.
LORD DERWENT: I said, in certain commodities.
LORD STONHAM: Milk is the commodity that we are talking about now. It is a much greater safeguard to the consumer that he should buy 9 oz. for the 6d. and know he is getting it than to get one-third of a pint for 6d. and not know that it is a lot less than 9 oz. The second thing—and the noble Lord, Lord Fraser of Lonsdale dealt with this—was that to exempt sales of milk from vending machines alone would make it difficult to resist demands for similar sales for other goods. Is not the noble Lord aware that precisely these same milk vending machines sell other liquids on which there is no control at all over quantity? It makes absolute, fantastic nonsense of the noble Lord's argument.
Then he says that there would be demands for similar off-quantity sales from vending machines in regard to other goods. What happened when the price of chocolate went up? They did not alter the coin in the machine; they gave a little less chocolate. It is the same in regard to all forms of confectionery in vending machines; and, as I think Lord Fraser of Lonsdale said, you get 9 cigarettes instead of 10, simply because the tax was increased and the price went up. The noble Lord is not in this standing for consumer protection at all, and his noble friend need not, holding the views he does, have voted against the Second Reading of the Bill. In my view the noble Lord is standing for sheer obstinacy, and in so doing he, and those who advise him, are doing serious injury to the farming industry, which he ought to know has not been having a good time of late.
He said that it was not beyond the bounds of ingenuity to devise a means of giving change; but I quoted the

633
cost—something like 6,000 times £30—for altering the machines so that they can take other coins. Just imagine the labour costs, for instance, in attaching with a piece of selotape or something like that, a ½d or 1d. on each carton in order that it can give change.
LORD SHEPHERD: And disease.
LORD STONHAM: Yes. That would in fact quite destroy any possibility of the thing being economic. We have given the facts from this side of the Committee, and they have been supported from the Benches opposite. We have indicated that this Amendment is badly needed by all the organisations representing the farmer, the Milk Marketing Board, all the organisations representing milk distribution; and we have shown that it is wholly within the principles of consumer protection and for the convenience of the housewife. There can be no reason at all why the Governernment should reject this Amendment other than the knowledge that they have more bodies on that side than we have on this. I can only hope that if they do not accept the Amendment and we go into the Division Lobby your Lordships will vote according to the facts and support the Amendment.
6.59 p.m.
LORD AMPTHILL: As the industry with which I am connected has been mentioned—I refer to the tobacco industry—I should like to say that it uses a tremendous number of vending machines. I think that probably my comparatively small unit of that industry has more vending machines than the number mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Stonham. Unlike the milk industry, the tobacco industry is subject to some impost of duty which of course affects the price at which cigarettes are sold. We do not
make packets of ten or twenty cigarettes especially for automatic machines; the automatic machines are adjusted and altered to give change. Although that costs a certain amount, it does not cost anything like the figure which Lord Stonham mentioned. I have not briefed myself at all to talk on this, but if I had known that tobacco and automatic vending machines were going to be mentioned I would have come with a raft of information. But the tobacco industry, for all we know, may next August have another 10 per cent. surcharge put upon it, and we shall have to adjust all our thousands and thousands of automatic machines. I agree with Lord Stonham that if we could go back to the good old days of 6d. for ten and 1s. for twenty cigarettes everything would be "jammy", but we are out of those days now and I think that the milk industry has to face up to modern finance in the same way as has the tobacco industry.
LORD SHEPHERD: I do not think the noble Lord was quite fair in his comparison between the alteration of a tobacco-vending machine and the same process in relation to a milk-vending machine. I should not like to say what is the margin of profit in the tobacco industry and the tobacco distributing trade. I would hazard a guess that it is considerably larger and wider than that which is available to those who produce and sell milk and those organisations which sell milk through vending machines. Therefore, it is not a very fair comparison for the noble Lord to say, from his experience in the sale of tobacco, that it is easy to carry out alterations to a milk-vending machine.
On Question, Whether the said Amendment shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 20; Not-Contents 39.

CONTENTS

Addison, V.

Fraser of Lonsdale, L.

Rusholme, L.

Archibald, L.

Henderson, L.

Shepherd, L. [Teller.]

Attlee, E.

Hughes, L.

Stonham, L.

Burton of Coventry, B.

Latham, L.

Strabolgi, L.

Champion, L.

Lawson, L.

Summerskill, B.

Crook, L.

Lindgren, L.

Walston, L.

Faringdon, L.

Lucan, E. [Teller.]

NOT-CONTENTS

Albemarle, E.

Ampthill, L.

Colville of Culross, V.

Aldington, L.

Bridgeman, V.

Conesford, L.

Allerton, L.

Colgrain, L.

Craigton, L.

Davidson, V.

Hanworth, V.

Mount Edgcumbe, E.

Denham, L.

Hastings, L.

Newton, L.

Derwent, L.

Horsbrugh, B.

Palmer, L.

Devonshire, D.

Jellicoe, E.

Perth, E.

Dilhorne, L. (L. Chancellor.)

Lansdowne, M.

Rathcavan, L.

Ferrers, E.

Long, V.

St. Aldwyn, E. [Teller.]

Ferrier, L.

Lothian, M.

St. Oswald, L.

Fortescue, E.

McCorquodale of Newton, L.

Strang, L.

Goschen, V. [Teller.]

Margesson, V.

Strathclyde, L.

Grenfell, L.

Massereene and Ferrard, V.

Templemore, L.

On Question Amendment agreed to.

Clause 62 [Other savings]:
EARL FERRERS EARL FERRERS moved, after subsection (1), to add:
"(1A) No contract for the sale or carriage for reward of any goods shall be void by reason only of a contravention of any provision of, or of any instrument made under, this Act with respect to any document which is, or is required by that provision to be, associated with the goods."
The noble Earl said: The purpose of this Amendment is to ensure that a contract which is otherwise legally carried out is not made void simply because of a failure to comply with the delivery note provisions of the Bill. Under Clause 23 and certain provisions of Schedules 5, 6 and 7, a delivery note is required to be supplied with goods in certain circumstances, and failure to supply a delivery note is an offence which carries the penalty specified in Clause 52(2). Furthermore, the omission or misstatement of any particulars required to be in the note is also an offence and carries a similar penalty. I understand that, in the event of such an offence, not only would the penalties provided by the Bill apply, but in certain circumstances the operation of Common Law would, in fact, render the contract itself void. The law regarding the voidability of contracts is highly complex, and I do not propose to involve myself in it here. But it should be sufficient to say that as a general principle a contract is illegal and void at Common Law if the manner of its performance is prohibited by Statute; and the failure to comply with the statutory requirements to supply a delivery note would be likely to amount to illegal performance rendering the seller's contract void. This would mean that a seller who delivered goods but failed to supply a delivery note, or supplied a defective delivery note, would not only be liable to the statutory penalty under the Bill but would also be unable to
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recover payment, even though the goods complied fully with the terms of the contract.
I think your Lordships will agree that it would be unreasonable in such circumstances that the seller should be penalised twice over. The Amendment therefore provides that no contract for the sale or carriage for reward of any goods shall be void by reason only of a contravention of the delivery note provisions in the Bill or in any orders made under it. In all other respects the Common Law is not affected. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 58, line 8, at end insert the said subsection.—(Earl Ferrers.)
LORD SHEPHERD: It would not be void merely because there had been a contravention of the issuance, and not of the content of, a delivery note? If the delivery note is irregular in some shape or form, that might have an effect upon the carrying out of the contract. Would the noble Earl say whether action would still be possible if the content of the delivery note was irregular?
LORD LINDGREN: Before the noble Earl replies, may I ask this, which joins up with what my noble friend Lord Shepherd has said? Surely, there is some onus on the person receiving goods. A delivery note is a document setting out the goods to be delivered. The person signing it then accepts the responsibility for having checked the goods delivered. There is the association between the delivery note and the invoice for the goods. With the delivery, issue and requisition of goods there is often a mistake; one cannot avoid it. But there is some responsibility on the recipient of the goods, and the signature for the goods must have some relationship to the issue of the delivery note. Having listened to the noble Earl who moved the Amendment, I cannot see that any responsibility

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is placed upon the person signing a delivery note for the receipt of the goods.
EARL FERRERS: I think that the point is this. If you deliver goods and do not deliver a note, then you are prosecuted because you have failed under this Bill to deliver a note. But under Common Law as it stands at the moment a person could say that someone had not fulfilled his contract because the note was not delivered, and therefore he would not pay him for the goods, even though he had received the goods. That is what this Amendment tries to do away with.
On Question, Whether Clause 62, as amended, shall stand part of the Bill?
THE EARL OF PERTH: My noble friend, Lord Boyd of Merton, asked me whether I would make a point on this clause on his behalf. He would have been speaking as one of the Wardens of the Worshipful Company of Goldsmiths. He had hoped that this might have come up last night—he was very optimistic, I think, in hoping that. Most unhappily, he could not be here to-day, so of course I said, remembering in particular that he was so long my chief, that I should be only too glad to speak on his behalf.
The point is as follows. It is proposed to abolish the use of pennyweights for trade, and the goldsmiths are somewhat disturbed at the effect this might have on hall-marking. For example, if a person were charged after the abolition of the use of pennyweights for trade with selling a piece of plate which was below the standard defined in pennyweights, he could plead that the standard was meaningless because it had been abolished. Goldsmiths accept the advice of the Board of Trade, that the use of the pennyweight for defining standards of fitness is not, in the words used in the Bill, a "use for trade". But they wonder whether a bench of magistrates might be inclined to rule otherwise, on the ground that a criminal Statute should be clearly understandable. Clause 62(1) does not help, because it refers to use of measurements by agreement. There would not necessarily be an agreement between an assay office and a person prosecuted. Indeed, I can well imagine exactly the opposite.
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It was suggested that a new subsection to Clause 62 might be used to make it clear that this Bill shall not affect existing legislation concerned with hall-marking. But Her Majesty's Government saw difficulty on this, I understand, because it might cast doubt as to whether use by others, for similar purposes, of units not included in the first Schedule and not specifically referred to in Clause 62 was prohibited. It would greatly help if my noble friend could give an assurance that the use of the pennyweight for defining standards of silver will remain effective when the provisions of Clause 10, including in particular subsection (8), take effect.
LORD DERWENT: I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Boyd of Merton for having given me plenty of warning about this. I was able not only to talk to the draftsmen but to the legal people, so we know where we are. I am quite satisfied that the use of the pennyweight for defining the standard fineness of silver is not a "use for trade" within the meaning of Clause 9 of the Bill. There is, therefore, nothing in the Bill to prevent the use of the pennyweight for defining such a standard, and I can give the noble Lord the assurance that the use of the pennyweight for defining standards of silver will remain effective when the provisions of Clause 10, including in particular subsection (8), take effect.
THE EARL OF PERTH: May I thank the noble Lord very much. I am sure that the Company of Goldsmiths will also welcome the assurance the noble Earl has been able to give.
Clause 62, as amended, agreed to.
Remaining clauses agreed to.
Schedules 1 to 3 agreed to.
Schedule 4 [Foods]:
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (LORD AIREDALE): The Lord Chairman points out that this Schedule and Schedules 6 and 7, which are contentious because Amendments have been put down to them, are also extremely lengthy and are divided, each of them, into a large number of separate Parts. It may be to the convenience of the Committee if I observe these separate Parts and, at the appropriate times, put the questions to the Committee, "That

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this be Part I of the Schedule", "That this be Part II of the Schedule", and so on.
Part I [Meat and food containing meat]:
7.20 p.m.
BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY moved, in paragraph 2(b), to leave out "sold" and insert:
"weighed for the determination of the purchase price in the presence of the buyer".
The noble Baroness said: This Amendment particularly, and the two ensuing Amendments, are designed to restrict the sale of meat by gross weight in cases where the meat is not sold and weighed in the presence of the buyer. We believe, and wish to put forward, that where meat is sold it should not have a container which weighs more than a thin piece of wrapping paper. We submit that if a housewife receives her meat in a container she may not know the net weight and she may not want to pay for the meat plus the container. We feel that if the container plus the meat is the basis of the purchase price, then unless our Amendment is accepted the purchaser will not know whether she is paying the net purchase price or the price of the meat plus the container.
The real principle involved here is our desire to see articles sold by net weight, and it seems to me that the Government are really extending the principle of selling goods gross weight—in other words, by weight including wrapper—which is something about which we are not at all happy. I wonder whether the noble Lord, Lord Derwent, could tell the Committee if it is true that in the United States and in a good many other countries, including countries in the Commonwealth, the net weight has to be given. I have been looking up the Report of the Hodgson Committee, and it seemed to me that that Committee recommended this also, with certain limited exceptions. Furthermore, I think it is true to say that the Institute of Weights and Measures are also in favour of this principle. I wonder whether the noble Lord could tell us why the Government seem to be adamant on this issue and to take a contrary view to the people I have mentioned.
I think every one in the Committee to-night would agree that where meat
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is weighed in the presence of the customer there must be a piece of paper on the scales; and I remember that in another place the Parliamentary Secretary pointed out that this piece of paper would be of infinitesimal weight. I know that. But again we say that if it is a very small piece of meat that is put into a container, the container then may not be of such an infinitesimal weight as the piece of paper. I believe that pre-packed meat can be sold by net weight without a container allowance; and I am wondering whether the noble Lord can give us an assurance on this matter, or whether he can tell us that he will look at it again—I know it is a difficult matter—before we have the next stage of the Bill. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 68, line 20, leave out ("sold") and insert the said new words.—(Baroness Burton of Coventry.)
LORD DERWENT: I was not quite certain whether the noble Lady was speaking only to Amendment No. 37.
BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY: Yes.
LORD DERWENT: I am grateful to her, because the others are not on quite the same point. I agree with the noble Lady that it is a difficult point. She, I am certain, is right in theory: that wherever possible sales should, in practice, be by net weight. She asked me about the United States. I am not sure, but I believe sales there to be by net weight, although whether there are variations I cannot tell her. I believe that in this particular case, as I hope to show, the two considerations which we must have in mind are whether it is practical and whether it is hygienic.
As the noble Lady has said, this Schedule allows the sale by gross weight of certain products when sold in containers—and this is important—of less than certain permitted weights. The gross weight is allowed only when the container is less than a certain laid-down weight. The reason for this provision is that there are some goods which, mainly for reasons of hygiene, should clearly be weighed in or on some form of wrapper. It is purely a matter of hygiene. Thus, a piece of liver will generally have a sheet of greaseproof paper placed under

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it on the scales to prevent them from becoming sticky. Many small retailers—and this, also, is important, I think—do not have the type of weighing equipment which would enable them to determine the net weight in such a case because the small container or wrapper is so small, and this subsection therefore allows the retailer to give the gross weight of the goods when the container or wrapper is below a certain weight. He can give the gross weight of goods with the wrapper.
Paragraph 2, to which the Amendment relates, deals only with non-pre-packed goods: pre-packed goods are covered by paragraphs 3 and 4. The effect of the Amendment would be twofold. First, it would limit the scope of the gross weighing provision for non-pre-packed goods to goods which are weighed for the determination of their price in the buyer's presence; that is, it would exclude any articles which had been weighed and priced in advance. Secondly, it would really have the effect of excluding meat sold in response to telephone orders for delivery. The Amendment would compel the butcher who wished to follow the common custom of putting various joints in his window with weight and price tickets already attached, to weigh these articles on his scales without the sheet of greaseproof paper which one would have thought was probably hygienically necessary. Equally, when the butcher weighed up the meat he was sending out on his delivery round he would have to put it on the scales without the greaseproof paper. In the particular circumstances, there would be little point in such a requirement.
I would remind your Lordships that the wrapper allowance for meat is really exceedingly small. For a 2 lb. joint, for example, which is a fairly big piece of meat, it is just over a quarter of an ounce—and, as a matter of fact, that would hardly register on many butchers' scales. In view of these strict limitations and what is practical and hygienic, I hope the noble Baroness will feel inclined to withdraw this Amendment, though I appreciate that it is a problem.
BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY: I thank the noble Lord for his answer. I do not intend to press this Amendment. I appreciate the difficulties; but I should like to read what he has said
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about it. I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD DERWENT: I wonder whether this would be a convenient moment to take some refreshment, in view of the fact that we may be sitting late. We are making pretty good progress. What would the Committee like—an hour and five minutes or an hour and ten?
LORD LATHAM: We will have the bonus—an hour and five.
LORD DERWENT: I beg to move that the Committee do adjourn during pleasure for an hour and five minutes, until twenty-five minutes to nine.
[The Sitting was suspended at half-past seven o'clock and resumed at twenty-five minutes before nine o'clock.]
LORD STONHAM LORD STONHAM moved to leave out paragraph 5. The noble Lord said: I regard this Amendment as the third act in a trilogy which started some two years ago when we had a rather similar Amendment on fish and poultry. It concerns the provision that when a butcher is ordered or requested by the customer to remove some part of the meat and the meat is then delivered at a time later than that at which the order was placed, the butcher has to make a written statement comprising the original weight before the bones and part of the meat are removed and the final net weight. But if the butcher, having removed the bones and other impedimenta, wraps them up again in the same parcel he is not required to put the separate weights on the ticket. Two years ago when we had these discussions about the filleting of fish and then placing the bones and other offal back on top, the Government saw the wisdom of the Amendments we then moved and accepted them. With regard to the evisceration of poultry and such goods, they did not see the wisdom then; but in the passage of time and in this new or third Bill they have deleted those requirements. But this paragraph 5 still remains.
I freely admit that it is at present the law that if a butcher, at the request of the customer, removes the bones and part of the meat, he is required to put on the ticket not only the original weight but the

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final weight under pain of all sorts of penalties. That requirement has been ignored continuously by butchers. In fact, I would hazard a guess that most of them do not even know it is the law. Therefore I feel that we should not be stupid about this and, as it has been the law for so long and ignored for so long, we should now take the opportunity of acting sensibly and removing it.
I do not often go to a butcher's shop but sometimes I do; and particularly to a pork butcher. I have heard him ask the customer: "Shall I remove the skin?" He removes it very expertly from the pork chop and it is paper thin, or a little more than paper thin—it might make a difference of a quarter of an ounce to the chop. The idea that the butcher must weigh the chop before and after the removal of the skin when it is removed at the request of the customer is just too ridiculous. Similarly with taking the bone out of a leg of meat or trimming off fat. I think we must agree that this clause handicaps the butcher and annoys the housewife. If, in the new Act of Parliament, we insist on its implementation, it would deprive the housewife of a service which she wants and which is of value to her. Butchers, housewives and the Government have sensibly ignored the existing law in this matter, and I think it would be wholly foolish to revive or re-enact what is in fact a dead letter. Therefore I hope the Government will accept this Amendment, leave out of the Bill this paragraph 5 and remove at least one foolish item from the Bill. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Leave out paragraph 5.—(Lord Stonham.)
EARL FERRERS: The noble Lord, Lord Stonham, has put the present position of the law clearly. This paragraph provides that where part of the meat is removed by the butcher, at the customer's request and before it is delivered, the delivery note must state not only the original weight on which the purchase price was based, but also the actual weight sent out for delivery. The noble Lord has argued his case, as he usually does, with clarity and feeling. But there has been a change in the Bill since it was last before your Lordships' House. An Amendment in another place inserted in Clause 26(3) a provision that traders shall not be guilty of a short-weight offence
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where the deficiency is caused by treatment of the goods, which took place with the buyer's consent, between sale and delivery. This clarifies the position in cases where, for example, a joint is boned, or a fish filleted, or a chicken gutted, at the buyer's request. I am glad to say, and I know that it will please the noble Lord greatly, that the Government agree to his Amendment to remove this subsection.
LORD STONHAM: May I be allowed to say how delighted I am that the Government accept this Amendment? All I can say is that it shows the value of adjourning for dinner—and "Up the Revolution!"
Part I, as amended, agreed to.
Part II [Fish, poultry and sausage-meat]:
8.43 p.m.
LORD STONHAM LORD STONHAM moved, in paragraph 2, to leave out sub-paragraphs (2) and (3) and to insert instead:
"2.—(1) Subject to sub-paragraph (2) of this paragraph and paragraph 4 of this Part of this Schedule, goods to which this Part of this Schedule applies shall be sold net weight.
(2) When sold by retail, the quantity of goods sold being—

(a) quantity by net weight; or

(b) if the goods are weighed for the determination of the purchase price in the presence of the buyer in a container which does not exceed the appropriate permitted weight specified in Table B of Part XII of this Schedule, either by net or by gross weight.

shall be made known to the buyer before he pays for or takes possession of the goods."
The noble Lord said: The purpose of the Amendment is to ensure that fish, poultry and sausage-meat should be sold only by net weight.
LORD DERWENT: Would it be convenient for the noble Lord to take Amendments Nos. 41 and 44 together, as they deal with the same subject?
LORD STONHAM: I am quite sure that it would be for the convenience of your Lordships, but I could not agree to take Amendments Nos. 42 and 43 here, because they deal only with fish and on these I am looking forward to a major battle with the noble Lord. I do not think that we need to spend a great deal

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of time on this Amendment, though in my view it is important. I refer your Lordships to table B, which allows for a very small tare (if I may use that expression) of 4½ grammes per lb. on the gross weight, and proportionate allowance for greater weight. The Amendment would also cover the wholesale sale of fish, but I propose to deal with that in a separate Amendment, as it is a different point.
We feel strongly (and this feeling was expressed by my noble friend Lady Burton of Coventry in the Amendment she moved prior to dinner) that the weight should be made known to the buyer before he buys, pays for or takes possession of the goods. The object of the Amendment is to ensure that goods to which Part II of the Bill applies should be sold only by net weight, except when on retail sale they are weighed for the determination of the purchase price in the presence of the buyer. As I have said, the Amendment would also remove the exception for fish when sold otherwise than by retail, but I want to deal with that separately on a somewhat different Amendment.
All the way through the passage of the Bill two years ago, and again to-day, we have fought for this principle of net weight whenever it could possibly be applied. I feel that with the goods which we are now discussing—poultry, sausages and fish—in almost all circumstances, apart from the exceptions which are provided for in another part of this Schedule, these goods could be sold by net weight; and the Amendment we propose to substitute for the sub-paragraphs already in the Bill are a very much better way than the Government's proposals and a greater protection for the consumer. I therefore trust, since we are dealing only with very light tare, that the Government will feel disposed to accept the Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 69, line 24, leave out sub-paragraphs (2) and (3) and insert the said new paragraph. (Lord Stonham.)
LORD DERWENT: I agree with the noble Lord that net weight is the proper thing when it can be reasonably applied. I am, however, going to suggest that I think it is stretching the point a little far in this connection in Amendments
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Nos. 41 and 44. I confess that I am not altogether clear from the drafting of Amendment No. 41 what its effect would be, since, although it does not delete the existing sub-paragraph (1) of paragraph 2, it suggests the insertion of a new sub-paragraph (1) However, I am replying on the assumption that it relates to retail and wholesale sales of all goods covered by this Part of the Schedule.
One effect of Amendment No. 41 would be to limit the scope of the provision in paragraph 2(2)(b) which allows goods to be sold by gross weight, but limit it to goods which are weighed for the determination of their price in the buyer's presence. Like a similar Amendment on the previous Part of the Schedule, the Amendment would have the effect of preventing a seller from putting a piece of paper on the scales when he wished to weigh an article in advance, and put it in his window with a weight and price ticket attached, or when he weighed goods in response to a telephoned order for delivery to the customer.
LORD STONHAM: Would not putting the piece of paper on the scale come under Schedule A and not Schedule B of the container allowances?
LORD DERWENT: I do not think so. I am advised that this is exactly the effect this would have. But the main purpose of these two Amendments appears to be, first, to require fish, with some exceptions, to be sold wholesale by net weight; and, secondly, to exclude all pre-packed goods from the provisions allowing gross weight, and to require them to be marked with their net weight. Those are the two main objects. As to the first, the wholesale fish, I think it would be for the convenience of the Committee if the noble Lord would allow me to deal with wholesale sales of fish when we come to Amendment No. 42 and related Amendments which are directed to this question.
As to the second (and this is the Government view on this point, which is really the only one we are arguing), we cannot accept the proposal as reasonable or practicable—they are probably the same thing. This is the point. Fish, poultry and sausage meat are three of the various products in this Schedule which are liable to lose weight to an unpredictable extent from evaporation or

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other causes, and for which it is extremely difficult for a factory-packer to mark a weight which will be accurate at the time of sale. If the article is only lightly packed—say, with a band or a wrapper round the sausages—and it is almost entirely exposed to the air, such a marking is quite impossible. This is why the Bill allows the weight to be made known to the buyer instead of requiring the pack to be marked with its net weight. If the buyer is to have the weight made known to him at the time of sale, for example by having the pre-packed article weighed in front of him, this weighing must necessarily include the container or bag: that is, it must be the gross weight. I hope, therefore, that on these two Amendments—one is a minor point—the noble Lord will think that I have made out my case.
LORD STONHAM: With respect, I feel that the noble Lord has made out his case much better than he usually does, and in the light of the explanation which has been given I ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
8.52 p.m.
LORD STONHAM LORD STONHAM moved, in paragraph 2(2), after "fish" to insert:
"exempted under paragraph 4 of this part of this Schedule."
The noble Lord said: On this Amendment we really intend to do battle. We feel that we have—
LORD DERWENT: Again, may I ask the noble Lord to consider, if he would take a minute to look at it, whether we could not possibly take Amendments Nos. 42, 43, 45 and 45A together. They are closely linked.
LORD STONHAM: I am entirely agreeable to that course, and I can only regret that the noble Lord was about half a sentence ahead of me in making that suggestion.
LORD DERWENT: I am sorry.
LORD STONHAM: The object of this and the other Amendments, which I am now discussing collectively, is to ensure that fish, with certain exceptions, when sold by wholesale shall be sold by net weight. I would first draw your Lordships' attention to the fact that the word-
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ing used in this Amendment, with all its faults, is the same wording as has been chosen by the Government in paragraph 20 of Schedule 6 to the Bill applying to solid fuel. Therefore, although it is a different kind of commodity, I cannot accept any fault if there should be any deficiencies in the wording of the Amendment, because I have more or less precisely copied that, and would suggest that what can be done in the case of fuel can certainly be done in the case of fish.
We have had these discussions now for two years, and all through the piece in another place and here we have been assured that it would be unfair to the wholesalers of fish to sell to their customers, the retailers, by net weight. If there is anything in which there is a greater possibility to do a legitimate "fiddle" than in selling fish by wholesale, I should like to hear about it. After all, fish in the very nature of things are wet. There is also the fact that in order to preserve them they have ice added to them. Therefore, even net weight does not mean as much in the case of fish as it means in most things. But the unfortunate retail fishmongers are denied even the consolation of net weight for the commodities they buy. They have to put up with boxes which are saturated with water and contain a varying degree of ice and water, and almost always a net deficiency in the quantity of goods which they are going to sell compared to what they have paid for. When this matter was discussed in your Lordships' House some two years ago the noble Earl, Lord Dundee, assured the House that the Government had taken the best advice and were confident that it was possible to sell only by gross weight. But under pressure he admitted that the only advice he had taken was from fish wholesalers; and therefore I regard the advice as somewhat suspect and trust that on this occasion we shall not be impressed by advice of that kind.
I would mention that among the four Amendments is, of course, an exclusion for herring which are sold by the cran measure; and I am happy to say, being a basket-maker, that the cran is a wicker basket and is a statutory measurement. Therefore, of course, herring sold by cran measure are a perfectly proper

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weight. You will also note in the Amendments that I suggest that kit measure should be acceptable. I am not very happy about this, because kit measure is a rather unknown quantity. It normally refers to so many stones of fish, but obviously in a kit the quantity can vary. I mention these things only to show the lengths to which I have gone in order to accommodate the warm feelings of the Government towards the wholesalers of fish.
Also in this Amendment I have endeavoured to meet the Government in another way, because I have excluded such places—and there are some—to which inshore fishermen will bring their catches where there is no adequate equipment for weighing. In such cases, if the Board of Trade were satisfied, on economic or other grounds, that provision for weighing would not be justified (these would be only quite small places, but we do not want to handicap the small fishermen who would sell in this way) they could direct that the provisions of this Amendment should not apply in that particular area.
I feel that this is a most important part of this Amendment, for it is quite apparent that in all the representations that have been made by the wholesale dealers in fish, their anxiety is to ensure that there should be no inspection of fresh fish by weights and measures officers until they reach the retailer's premises; and the reason why that has been put forward has allegedly been because of the fear of delays in transit—I expect that that argument is in the noble Lord's brief; I cannot tell him which page, because I have not seen it; but I have no doubt that it is there. I should like to dispose of that argument, which does not bear examination, because the overriding fact is that wholesale trade in fish is, and has been for many years, universally conducted in terms of net weight. Therefore, what I am asking for in this Amendment is the statutory enforcement of what all good, respectable wholesalers of fish are already doing—that is, selling to their customers by net weight.
In another place in Committee Mr. Denzil Freeth, who I understand is one of the Parliamentary Secretaries, said:
"It has been the practice in the trade that boxes should be sold to the retailer on the basis of approximate weight".
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He was very careful not to specify his authority for that statement. But the fact is that there is nothing approximate about the charges invoiced to the retailer. If the gross weights of the boxes are approximate, there is a very definite weight which is charged to the retailer, and always the invoices are in terms of weight. The weakness is that far too often far too little care has been taken to ensure that the weight packed is the same as the weight charged for, and short-weight at the wholesale stage has long been the principal grievance of the retail trade in fish.
I would point out here that there appears to be some difference of opinion among Government spokesmen in this matter, which may be accounted for by the passage in time in consideration of these Bills. In your Lordships' House on January 31, 1961, the noble Earl, Lord Dundee, said [OFFICIAL REPORT, Vol. 228, col. 138]:
"I think in fact the trade is virtually always conducted in terms of net weights when it reaches that stage."
That is the stage of sale to the retailer. Yet on February 7 this year Mr. Denzil Freeth said:
"The honourable Member for Hillsborough"—
that is my honourable friend Mr. George Darling—
"said that a number of wholesalers do in fact already sell to the retailer in terms of net weight. I agree that this is an excellent thing and should be encouraged. Indeed the time may come when so much of the trade is done in terms of net weight that it may be right to insist upon all trade being done in net weights."
I submit it is perfectly clear that time has come now; it has come in this Bill and on this Amendment, and if the Board of Trade were not aware of this fact they should certainly be so now. My honourable friend said that an increasing number of fish wholesalers are adopting the practice of weighing the fish into the boxes. That difference is very significant. The wholesalers he mentioned are voluntarily labelling their boxes with the net weight of the contents. I submit there is no valid reason why this practice should not be universal and compulsory.
I say now, as I think I said on Second Reading, that the two Government spokesmen I have referred to said absolutely opposite things from which

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they managed to draw the same conclusion, which would make it appear that they started from the answer and worked back to their arguments. The noble Earl, Lord Dundee, admitted that the Government were very much inclined to favour the recommendation of the Hodgson Committee, which advised compulsory sale of fish by net weight at both wholesale and retail stages, but as a result of conversations with people who knew something about it the Government were forced to a different conclusion, said Lord Dundee. These people he later admitted were wholesalers. It was suggested by the Minister in another place that retail fishmongers should be content with the provisions of Clause 24 of the Bill, but I would ask why they should be expected to be content. Retailers of every other food commodity mentioned in the Schedule are protected by a requirement of net weight from their wholesalers. Why should the retailers of fish be excluded from this provision?
In the case of fresh fish, the time element in handling, preparing and selling on the same day as the fish arrives is just as important as has been urged at the wholesale stage. Everyone who has paid a visit to a fishmonger, particularly in the forenoon, will have seen that his whole show may not be out; that he is taking fish from boxes. He has not had the least chance of weighing or checking their contents; he has to accept the gross weight which is given to him, and it is virtually impossible for him to establish evidence in cases of short weight. Those cases are numerous. They add to the prices which the housewife pays because the retailer has to protect himself; and the fishmonger, therefore, actually derives less protection from Clause 24 than do the traders in less perishable commodities.
I submit that the exception which the Government have made in favour of wholesale fishmongers is completely unjustifiable; it is contrary to the majority practice in the trade at present. We are entitled to insist in this Bill—as Lord Derwent has quite rightly said, we are legislating for some years ahead—that the malingerers should be brought into line by statutory provision, and that means selling at wholesale level by net weight. In those circumstances,
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with the exceptions for which I have already allowed, allowing for all the Government objections, I think the case is unanswerable, and I trust that the Government will accept the Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 69, line 24, at end insert the said words.—(Lord Stonham.)
9.8 p.m.
LORD DERWENT: I am afraid I have not been doing my homework as well as the noble Lord, Lord Stonham. I have not read the remarks of all previous Government speakers in regard to the line they take, and it would appear, if they have been reported correctly by the noble Lord, Lord Stonham, that I do not take the same line; but mine is a line that I have always intended taking. I am going to resist these Amendments on the ground that, from a practical point of view, they are inadvisable and I think would handicap the eventual consumer. These four Amendments are closely linked, and together their effect would broadly be to require most wholesale sales of fish to retail fishmongers to be by net weight only. Broadly speaking, we do not think that in the present state of the wholesale fish trade—I am going to say a little more on this; the noble Lord, Lord Stonham, need not be upset at this sentence—a requirement to sell by net weight would be desirable. We do not think that at the moment.
Amendment No. 43 recognises that it is not practicable to apply a requirement to sell by net weight to wholesale sales of fish at some ports, because of the lack of suitable equipment. This is certainly a consideration which the Government have had in mind in not imposing a requirement that wholesale sales of fish should be by net weight, but this is not the only, or the main consideration. The most vital consideration is that fish must be sold quickly and that nothing must be done to interrupt its speedy transport to the consumer. We believe that this is what is most important at the moment. The trawlers must be unloaded, their catches weighed, sold, filleted, weighed again, packed and despatched so that they arrive at their destination early the next morning; and any slowing of this process can be serious. There is no doubt that the noble Lord appreciates this because he has left in the Bill selling

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by kits, and the only purpose of kits is for speedy handling. Therefore, he realises that this point is of prime importance.
This process could be serious if one had to weigh more carefully and, through the activity of inspectors, checkweigh boxes at both the ports and the inland markets. This might well delay fish very considerably. There are also different methods of selling fish at the ports which are likely to go on for some time, as fish can be sold without its weight being ascertained. We find that there are further categories of sales which could not reasonably be required to be sold strictly by weight. For instance, the first buyers upon landing at the port often sell some of their purchases of kits to smaller wholesalers in the condition in which they bought them, again without having the time or facilities to verify the weight precisely. Usually, at this stage the fish is roughly packed in ice as it comes off the boat, and accurate weighing would in any case be quite impracticable. It would be wrong, and would probably confuse traders, if certain wholesale sales were required to be by weight only, while others taking place at the same quayside and in the same market were exempted.
The Government have therefore decided not to cover wholesale sales of fish at all, recognising that the general short-weight provisions in Clause 24, in spite of what the noble Lord has said, will afford protection to the wholesaler and retailer whose suppliers are in fact purporting to sell a specific weight of fish. That is particularly so if, as Lord Stonham says, most wholesalers sell by net weight now. Then, notwithstanding anything in Schedule 4, the retailer has a full and adequate defence against any short weight by reason of Clause 24. So that point does not seem to have very much in it. It is not true that all other wholesalers of food are covered. For example, wholesalers of fresh fruit and vegetables, cheese and groceries are not covered. Fish is not the only commodity. There are slightly different reasons for some of the others, but we believe that it is not practicable at present to do what the noble Lord suggests because of getting the fish to market, to the retailer and to the customer, fresh. We believe that sometimes now, in certain weather, freshness—I will not say is open to doubt, but is
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certainly a bit difficult; and if there is any more delay we are quite certain that would happen. I am afraid that we are not prepared to accept the Amendment.
LORD STONHAM: The only practical point which the noble Lord raised against what I said—and he really did not attempt to answer the case—was that nothing should be done to hold up delivery, and the only thing whereby my Amendment could be alleged to hold up delivery would be in those minority of cases where the wholesaler does not at present charge by net weight. In the majority of cases he is already weighing, but that does not prevent him from delivering the fish quickly to market. In those other cases where they do not sell by net weight, the only extra process is weighing the fish. We have excluded in the Amendment all those ports or small fishing villages where there would be no adequate equipment for weighing. In the others, the main fishing ports, there is modern weighing equipment and no difficulty and very little delay at all.
I am bound to confess that this is no answer at all. When the noble Lord says, "We do not at this time think it is practicable to introduce a net weight ", one might ask: at what time will it be practicable to have honest dealing in matters of this kind? I do not wish to delay the Committee any further; we have a great deal to do. But I regard this as a most unsatisfactory answer, and must give notice that we shall return to it again, when I hope, having studied the arguments in this particular debate, the noble Lord will be prepared to take a different view.
On Question, Amendment negatived.
Part II agreed to.
Part III [Cheese]:
9.17 p.m.
LORD STONHAM: The object of this Amendment is very clear. I wish to include foods which are composed of a great majority of cheese and minute proportions of other substances; for example, cheese and celery, cheese and tomato, and so on. Some of it is dreadful stuff, but nevertheless it is sold. But the point is that many of these articles contain very little else but cheese. I may be wrong, but it is thought that, by the terms of the Bill as now drafted, they

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would be excluded because they would not be wholly cheese and therefore could not be so described. I should have thought that, if a commodity consisted of, say, 95 per cent. of cheese and 5 per cent. of some other commodity, then if it is right to include cheese in these provisions it would be right to include the mixed commodity. I do not think it is necessary to pursue the point; in any case, I have nothing else to say about it at this short notice. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 70, line 23, after ("cheese") and ("and any article, which, though it also contains other food, consists substantially of cheese").—(Lord Stonham.)
LORD DERWENT: I think I can give a satisfactory answer to the noble Lord—not accepting it, but explaining it. The Amendment seeks to include, in Part III of the Schedule which at present relates only to cheese, articles made substantially of cheese. That is the object of the Amendment. The point I want to put to the noble Lord is that there would be little point in extending Part III in this way. Pre-packed goods which are made substantially but not wholly of cheese, such as cheese spreads or (what I am told exists) prepared welsh rarebit, are already subject to the requirements of Part XI of the Schedule and will have to be marked with their net weight. That concerns pre-packed goods.
Sales of goods made substantially of cheese which are not pre-packed we believe to be fairly limited and specialised. We are not satisfied that it would be appropriate to require that the weight of all these must be made known to the purchaser, for these reasons: prepared foods such as cheese cake and pastry cheese-rolls may be customarily sold either by weight or by the piece, and it would not, in my view, confer any necessary protection on the customer to require that in all cases they should be sold by weight. So, pre-packed goods are already looked after, and as to this very limited number of part-cheese, non-pre-packed goods, we think that, as sonic of them are sold in other ways, it would not serve any useful purpose.
LORD STONHAM: I am most grateful to the noble Lord for that explana-
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tion. To take the kind of cheese that are bought wrapped up in silverfoil, one sometimes get deceived by things like that. They are wrapped up in silverfoil, and there is some honest-to-goodness cheese in it: then some frightful stuff is added, tomato or something like that—merely a taste. Is the noble Lord saying that if they are pre-packed in some way or other then such mixtures are already covered by the Bill, and that tit is only esoteric developments of this sort which are not covered?
LORD DERWENT: Yes. If they are pre-packed, genuinely pre-packed, they are covered by the Bill. If there is doubt about the pre-packing—they are just in something—they are normally, I am advised, sold by so much a piece, so the net weight need not really be marked on them. I think the number of goods which are part cheese which are sold not pre-packed and not by the piece are very limited, if they exist at all.
LORD STONHAM: I still think it would have been much better to accept the Amendment, but I do not think it is of major importance and, in view of the explanation, I beg leave to withdraw it.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD SHEPHERD: On behalf of my noble friend Lord Peddie, I beg to move this Amendment. The object is quite simple, and I am sure that the Minister recognises it from olden days. It is that all pre-packed cheese should be sold exclusively by net weight. We on this side of the Committee hold the belief, and have held it on previous occasions, that there is no practical reason for permitting wrapper weights to be included in the weight of pre-packed cheese. The wrappers are generally of uniform size and weight. I think that if the noble Lord were to do any of his personal shopping he would discover that cheeses have a general standard of pack, with standard appearance, and that there is little to differentiate between the types of packing as between one store and another. Therefore, we feel that there is no reason whatsoever why, under this Bill, all cheeses which are pre-packed should not be clearly marked with the net weight. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 70, line 36, leave out from ("pre-packed") to ("only") in line 37.—(Lord Shepherd.)
LORD DERWENT: There are, in fact, reasons why this Amendment should not be accepted in the interests of the consumer, and I will explain them quite briefly. Paragraph 3 of Part III, to which the Amendment relates, requires pre-packed cheese to be marked with its net weight only if it is in a container heavier than the permitted weight specified in Table B of Part XII. The Amendment would require the net weight to be marked on all pre-packed cheese, even if it is in a lightweight wrapping within the permitted container allowance. This would be unreasonable and impracticable, as I hope to show. Many cheeses—and this is the point—unlike some other goods, are subject to unpredictable loss of weight after pre-packing, and many of the light-weight containers normally used cannot at the present day prevent this loss of weight.
It is not practicable for the packer in these circumstances to mark the cheese with a weight that will be correct at the time of sale, and the Bill provides instead that the weight of such pre-packed cheese in light-weight containers—not heavyweight—shall be made known to the customer at the time of sale. As the cheese is pre-packed, this weight to be made known must inevitably be the gross weight. I believe this is in the interests of the consumer. I would add that the weight of the Table B container which may be included in the gross weight is very small. For quantities up to 1 lb. the wrapper allowance is 4½ drams, or just over a quarter of an ounce. In all cases where wrappers above this permitted weight are used, the net weight must be marked.
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL: Can the noble Lord tell me whether this includes grated cheese in tins?
LORD DERWENT: If pre-packed, yes.
LORD SHEPHERD: Do I gather that the Minister is accepting the Amendment?
LORD DERWENT: No, you do not.
On Question, Amendment negatived.
9.27 p.m.
LORD STONHAM LORD STONHAM moved in paragraph 4 to leave out sub-paragraph (a) and insert:
"(a) prepacked soft cheeses (other than processed cheeses) sold intact as ripened and weighing not more than one pound".
The noble Lord said: On behalf of my noble friend, Lord Peddie, who is flying back from Manchester in order to move this Amendment and has not yet arrived, I beg to move this Amendment. The object of this Amendment is that of clarifying an exemption, provided in paragraph 4(a), for pre-packed natural cheese which is not of the Cheddar or Cheshire type. Are soft cheeses of the Camembert type, cream and cottage cheeses intended to be exempted? If so, why should they be? It seems an extraordinary thing that the only pre-packed natural cheeses which will be caught by the clause as it stands at present are Cheddar or Cheshire type cheeses. There are a great many kinds of cheese which ought to be sold by weight, and many in fact which are, and have been for a great many years, sold by weight.
I understand that in one supermarket recently the following varieties of pre-packed cheeses, in addition to Cheddars and Cheshires, were all marked with a declaration of weight. In other words, the makers, the wholesalers or packers, found it practicable and desirable—they were not bothered by the so-called technical difficulties—to mark their cheese with a declaration of net weight without any Act of Parliament. The cheeses were Dutch Edam, White and Blue Stilton, Gorgonzola, Austrian smoked, Lancashire, Leicestershire, Double Gloucester, Wensleydale and Caerphilly. Others which are commonly sold with the weight marked when pre-packed are Derby and Dunlop. As I understand it, all these would be exempted from sale by weight when pre-packed in accordance with the terms of the Bill as it stands at present.
It seems to me that the Government in this matter, remembering our discussions two years ago, have had no regard to the effect which those discussions had on the consciences of the makers and sellers of cheese. Obviously what we then said went right home to their hearts, and they went back to their factories and warehouses and started to make

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arrangements whereby they could be honest brokers and mark with the net weight the pre-packed cheese they were selling. The Government, being quite unconscious of this—because obviously they do not trade in supermarkets, and therefore have not observed these things—still stick to the original Cheddar and Cheshire as the only cheeses which will not be exempt. I would ask the noble Lord to look at the list I have read out and accept the Amendment; or, if he cannot do so now, to tell us that he will look at it again so as to widen this paragraph to bring it more nearly in accord with common practice among cheese manufacturers and wholesalers. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 70, line 40, leave out from "say" to end of line 42 and insert the said new subparagraph.—(Lord Stonham.)
LORD SHEPHERD: May I support my noble friend and appeal, if I may, to the knowledge and experience of the Minister, who before he took on this post was connected with trade and industry? I am sure that he will recognise that, particularly in the distributing trades, considerable advances have taken place. Therefore when we look at legislation before us we should not think merely of what was in the past and is to-day in our stores, but, realising that this Bill will remain on the Statute Book for perhaps 20 or 30 years without any amendment, should think of the trends that will take place in the distributing trade in future. I wish that my noble friend Lord Sainsbury could have been here this evening, because he has probably a greater experience than any of us in the distribution of food.
One of the things I have noticed is that customers to-day more and more wish to buy pre-packed foods. The Bill mentions only Cheshire and Cheddar, the popular cheeses before the war; but if we look into Sainsbury's, or any other big store, we find a great variety of cheeses being sold. As well as the names that have been mentioned by my noble friend Lord Stonham, there is Lancashire cheese, which, it seems to me, would be excluded from the provisions of paragraph 4.
When the noble Lord comes to put his case for paragraph 4 remaining, he will
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have to make a case to include all these other types of cheese. If the noble Lord goes to the Continent he will find that, in order to meet the requirements of customers, all cheeses are sold by net weight. I am thinking of Holland and Switzerland in particular. These countries are able to meet all the problems that seem to bedevil noble Lords opposite and are able to sell not only cheese, but other varieties of food as well, pre-packed by net weight. We should not think only of Cheddar and Cheshire cheeses, as the main cheeses that are bought in the stores. We should consider the wide variety of the purchases that are being made, and increasingly (I hope the noble Lord will accept this) in net weight form. It seems to me that this is the trend, and if there is to be consumer, protection, then that type of cheese which other manufacturers in other countries are able to have, with the provision of net weight, should be obtainable in this country.
LORD DERWENT: This is a technical question. I would say straight away, for those who have not lived with cheeses, that pre-packed cheeses have a net weight, but it can be extremely misleading, as I will go on to show. As a general rule for instance, in France all pre-packed goods require to have net weight or volume on them; but they have not got over the difficulty about cheese. The net weight has to go on, because all goods are covered; but it does not give a true picture.
The effect of this Amendment would be to bring within the requirements of Part III a wider range of pre-packed cheese. As the noble Lord has said, at the moment the pre-packed requirement applies only to Cheddar, Cheshire and processed cheese. The Amendment would bring in all other pre-packed bard pressed cheeses, blue cheeses, and soft cheeses (except whole soft cheeses, such as Camembert, up to 1 lb.). Part III already covers all cheese sold loose, and the great bulk as a percentage of pre-packed cheese is already covered in these cheeses of Cheddar, Cheshire and so on. Cheddar, Cheshire and processed cheese account for about 80 per cent. of the trade. So we are talking about 20 per cent. For pre-packed cheese the Bill represents a major extension of existing

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law which at present requires no pre-packed cheese, other than cheese spreads, to be marked. We think that to go further at this moment would raise considerable difficulties.
The cheese exempted includes a great many different varieties, as the noble Lord said, not one of which by itself accounts for more than 2½ per cent. of the total consumption. So we are not dealing with the bulk of the trade here.
LORD SHEPHERD: But if the principle is right, the percentage does not matter.
LORD DERWENT: There are serious practical problems about extending the requirements of the Bill to many of these cases. For example, weight losses from evaporation or "throwing" moisture, which occur even when these cheeses are packed in heavy containers, which some of them are for protection, make it impracticable to mark the net weight on the container. A number of cheeses, both home produced and Continental, are subject to very pronounced unpredictable losses of weight during distribution. Such losses may arise not only from evaporation in the normal sense, but also from "throwing" of moisture in certain conditions of heat or lack of humidity. The loss of weight varies considerably, and if you put on the net weight on packing of cheeses which have been subject to different temperatures there will be different weights when you come to sell and they will be something quite absurdly different from what they were when they started, even if they started at the same packed weight.
LORD LATHAM: Ought not the consumer to know that?
LORD DERWENT: We have considered this problem very carefully, and we think that they can be weighed at the time of sale, but if you put on the weight at the time of packing it is definitely misleading. I would say that at this present moment containers are being developed, many of them not yet with great success. Even the heavy containers, as I have said, have not stopped this "throwing" of moisture, as I call it; it is not only evaporation. We have power under Clause 21 to bring in other varieties if this were to be shown to be practicable or desirable. At the moment we cover 80
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per cent. of the trade. We feel that most of the rest of the trade, if we mark it, will be misleading.
LORD LATHAM: I suppose the noble Lord will agree that what his argument amounts to is that the consumer should bear the cost of the evaporation, humidity shrinkage, or whatever it may be.
LORD DERWENT: Whether it is packed with the net weight on it or not, he will still bear the effect of the evaporation.
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL: Would the noble Lord agree that I was right about hard Parmesan cheeses? When I asked the noble Lord whether these would be included, he said they would. I listened very carefully, and he said that because of the nature of the container being tin they would not be marked.
LORD DERWENT: We were talking about the previous Amendment which was dealing with the weight of the packing. We were not on this Amendment. On the previous Amendment, it depended on how the noble Lady's Parmesan was packed.
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL: The noble Lord, who is obviously an authority on cheese, should know that grated Parmesan cheese is always packed in a tin.
LORD DERWENT: That is not so nowadays. Sometimes it is in cellophane packets.
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL: Would the noble Lord tell me where I can get some in cellophane packets?
LORD DERWENT: I will try to bring some to the House for the noble Lady.
LORD SHEPHERD: The noble Lord was drawing our attention to the problem of Continental cheeses. He said there was a considerable difficulty which arose from Continental cheese.
LORD DERWENT: Not only Continental.
LORD SHEPHERD: I am speaking of Continental cheeses which are sold on the Continent by net weight. I think the noble Lord is suggesting, with all the difficulties he has explained to the Committee, that on the Continent, where the

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cheese is stamped with the net weight, the customer does not get the net weight content. Is that what he is saying?
LORD DERWENT: The customer may not get the net weight content.
LORD SHEPHERD: This is a serious matter, because here, under the Board of Trade, we are receiving imports of cheeses in pre-packed cartons with a net weight clearly stamped. Are we to understand that these cartons are coming in and being sold to the customer with these pre-packed marks, and the Government are saying that it is possible that the public are being misled. Are the Board of Trade doing nothing to see that those particular marks are dealt with before those imported cheeses are sold?
LORD AMPTHILL: If the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, is referring, under "pre-packed cheese", to things like Brie and Camembert, I would point out that you do not buy them by weight, whether in France or England. You open the lid and have a good prod. If it is in good condition, you buy it.
LORD DERWENT: Of course my noble friend is right. We are trying to protect those who want to be protected. I think the answer, quite frankly, is this. In practically all Continental countries the tolerances which are allowed in net weight are very wide indeed, and here they are not allowed.
LORD SHEPHERD: In other words, the noble Lord is saying that these figures mean just nothing.
LORD DERWENT: The tolerances are greater and they mean something on the Continent, but it is perfectly true that they may well mislead in this country.
LORD STONHAM: I think this has been an extremely useful discussion, which I, for one, want to examine much more closely. I think it is one of those cases in the Bill where a different form of marking of net weight would be advisable. The best thing we could do now—because we do not want to prolong the discussion indefinitely—is to say that we will look at this matter again and probably come forward on the Report stage with different Amendments in the light of what the noble Lord has said. With that, I would ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Part III agreed to.
9.44 p.m.
LORD STONHAM: I wonder whether I could ask the Government what their intentions are with regard to continuing the sitting on this particular Bill. We have dealt with—and we have not wasted any time, I know the noble Lord will agree—27 Amendments in five working hours, excluding the dinner adjournment. There are 27 more Amendments to deal with. At the same rate of progress we shall be here until half-past two in the morning. I have a vested interest in the matter, because I have to start a debate when these proceedings finish. Leaving that aside, I do not think we can give full and proper consideration to the Committee stage of this Bill for a further five hours. This is an important Bill. I would therefore ask the noble Lord what the Government's intentions are in the matter. I do not want to have to move that the House resume. I should like to come to a reasonable agreement on this point. If he cannot give me an answer immediately I hope that he will do so within the next half-an-hour.
LORD DERWENT: I do not think that these Amendments are going to take as long as the earlier ones. If the noble Lord looks at the Amendments, I think he will find that we shall finish in a reasonable time.
LORD STONHAM: I am glad that the noble Lord is so hopeful, but the next series of Amendments on bread are extremely important ones, and I am sure that these will take at least half-an-hour unless the noble Lord likes to shorten the proceedings by getting up and saying that he is going to accept the Amendments.
LORD DERWENT: In so far as the next Amendment is concerned, if I may be allowed to say so, if someone will move it very shortly I may be able to help.
Part IV [Bread]:
9.47 p.m.
LORD CROOK LORD CROOK moved, in paragraph 1, to leave out sub-paragraph (c), and to substitute:
"(c) the expression 'whole loaf' includes a sliced loaf and any prepacked bread shall be deemed to be a whole loaf unless—

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(i) it is made up in one of the following quantities, that is to say, twelve ounces, one pound, one and a half pounds, or a multiple of one pound, and

(ii) the container is marked with an indication of quantity by net weight."

The noble Lord said: I think that one should move Amendment No. 49 together with Nos. 50 and 51. The noble Lord on the other side puts me in a little difficulty. If I shorten what I have to say and do not put the proper case and we thereby do not get what we want, I shall have to come back afterwards to rebut anything the noble Lord says if he is not good enough to us. I think I can sum it up in this way. We have no desire to change the broad purpose of Part IV. We want to clarify requirements by eliminating practical uncertainties in the requirements as they are now drafted. What the Amendment seeks to do is to set down a sharp and clear statutory definition between the ordinary loaf baked whole and sold whole, and, on the other hand, pre-packed bread. I cannot help thinking that there are tremendous difficulties here, particularly for the inspector who has to be charged with the job of enforcement. For that matter, I think there are difficulties for the purchaser.
Had the noble Lord not indicated that there was quite a chance he would accept these Amendments if I were brief, I should have developed these points, particularly with regard to the use of sliced bread and the difficulties of knowing whether when one slice is removed one is in possession of a whole loaf or not a whole loaf; whether it is to be subjected to the test which the inspectors have, and the like. I am, however, quite happy—if the noble Lord is likely to meet this series of Amendments and to accept something we thought from the beginning was helpful to the Government, to the weights and measures authorities and the inspectors—to say that I am prepared to move and then sit down, in the knowledge that, having moved No. 49, if I do not get what we want, I shall move Nos. 50 and 51 at considerable length. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 71, leave out line 8 and insert—
("(c) the expression 'whole loaf' includes a sliced loaf and any prepacked bread shall be deemed to be a whole loaf unless—
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(i) it ins made up in one of the following quantities, that is to say, twelve ounces, one pound, one and a half pounds, or a multiple of one pound, and

(ii) the container is marked with an indication of quantity by net weight.").—(Lord Crook.)

LORD DERWENT: I hope I did not mislead the noble Lord into thinking that I was going to accept. I am going to ask if he will withdraw the Amendments and let me reconsider part of them, and the other parts I hope I shall be able to persuade him do not need reconsideration. But he can speak again; and we may shorten it by this process. I will take these three Amendments together, since they are inter-connected. Their object is twofold. First, they seek to change the standard weight of whole loaves from the 14 oz. or a multiple thereof provided in the Bill, to 1 lb. or a multiple thereof. Secondly, they would require sliced bread to be pre-packed in a range of specified sizes.
May I first deal—and I hope the noble Lord will give way on this particular point—with the question of the size of a normal loaf. The 14-oz. size for a normal "small" loaf and the 28-oz. size for a "large" loaf provided in the Bill is the same as in the present law. It has been in operation now since 1946, and I think the trade and the public find it a convenient size. To require it to be changed back to the pre-1946 size of 1 lb., et cetera, would not only impose a change from a size to which everyone has become long accustomed but would force the bakers to change their equipment at a substantial cost. No one, presumably, would expect a baker to sell a 16-oz. loaf for the same price as a 14-oz. one. So that the effect of the Amendment would be to disorganise the baking trade in order to give the consumer a slightly larger loaf than she is used to for a slightly higher price. From that point of view, I do not see any merit in it.
When we come to the second point, sliced bread, I think the noble Lord has raised an important point, and we have some sympathy with the aim of his Amendments, in so far as they seek to require pre-packed sliced bread to be subject to the same requirements as ordinary whole loaves. On this basis I am prepared to reconsider the drafting of Part IV to deal with this point. But I do not think it would be right to

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allow bread to be pre-packed in quantities different from those required for the unpre-packed whole loaves. The drafting would not do that. On the Amendment to omit lines 9 and 10, where the Bill provides that a commodity is to be sold by net weight it is unnecessary to provide specifically in the Schedule that the quantity shall be brought to the notice of the buyer, since that is implied in the requirement to sell by net weight. So the position is that the last Amendment is not necessary. On the first one, I hope that the noble Lord will agree, that it would perhaps be a retrograde step to alter the size of an ordinary loaf. On the question of pre-packed loaves we will reconsider the drafting to meet the point the noble Lord has raised.
LORD LINDGREN: Before my noble friend Lord Crook speaks again, perhaps the noble Lord, Lord Derwent, could tell us how, in fact, at the present time the housewife knows that she is getting the value in weight in the loaf when delivered or bought over the counter. It is never weighed. I am old enough—and perhaps the noble Lord, Lord Derwent is also—to remember the time when we went to buy a loaf and we got makeweight with it. If in the old days it was completely impossible for the baker to determine the weight of the bread, how is it possible to determine the actual weight of the bread when it is baked to-day? I know that we have had scientific development, but that scientific development has not overcome all the factors of humidity and the rest of it. In the olden days the question of makeweight often used to be a sizeable factor when it came to getting the extra slice—and, so far as I was concerned, the extra slice was quite a factor of sustenance in those days. Can the noble Lord tell us how one determines the weight; that if it is supposed to be 14 oz., in fact it is?
LORD DERWENT: I am afraid that I am not a baker and not technical enough to tell the noble Lord. There is a certain tolerance allowed, which is very small, and bakers and their products are repeatedly inspected, and I think I am right in saying that the actual retailer is inspected. Apart from that, I am afraid that, without due notice,
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I cannot tell the noble Lord the actual method of seeing that a loaf is the proper weight. I will write to the noble Lord if he likes, but I am not expert enough to tell him.
LORD CROOK: I thank the noble Lord for his statement. I think we have reasonably in a few minutes done something that might have taken a long time. I could not have developed the case in less than a quarter of an hour. I will withdraw the Amendment in the hope that we can get agreement on this point. I think that on the question of sliced loaves we are apparently together. It must not be taken that I am in agreement with everything the noble Lord said. I well remember the change from the 1 lb. loaf to the 14 oz. loaf, which was a war legacy. I see the point about multiples of 14 oz. and 16 oz. and so on. We shall have a chance on Report to come back to pre-packed goods, and we may be able to come back to something agreed between the noble Lord on behalf of the Government and those on this side. For that reason I shall be happy to withdraw No. 49 immediately and Nos. 50 and 51 I shall not move.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Part IV agreed to.
Part V agreed to.
Part VI [Intoxicating liquor]:
9.55 p.m.
LORD CROOK LORD CROOK moved to add to paragraph 2:
"and
(c) In the case of beer if a notice is displayed indicating the original gravity".
The noble Lord said: With your Lordships' permission, I will move Amendment No. 53 and would link with it Amendment No. 57, once again in order to save your Lordships' time. I feel very much in the position of one concerned with a slightly altered version of the old poem, in that I am here with bread and beer and not with bread and wine. I consider that in regard to beer the Amendment I move is one of considerable importance to the public as a whole, and one which has been the subject of agitation over a considerable period of years by those connected with working-class clubs. Therefore, if I have to keep your Lordships for a few moments it is because of past history of over thirty

669
years of agitation, to try to get the condition and price of beer where for instance, members of the Club and Institute Union think it should be.
The Club and Institute Union, who are persons responsible for our putting down this Amendment, have throughout the country 3,560 bona fide membership clubs of working people, and their registered membership as at the beginning of this year was over 2,425,000. They have been pressing for legislation, by having Questions asked in the House, by getting private Members' Motions moved, and by propaganda among many of us for some thirty years. The propaganda has been for the compulsory disclosure by brewers of the original gravity of the beers they sell. This is not a new problem. I may perhaps remind your Lordships that as long ago as 1887 the Local Government Board Report said:
"In the present state of the law as regard the constituents of beer, it is difficult for an analyst to report that a given sample of beer has been sold as beer of a particular brand, and thus afford any means of comparison."
I am not so much concerned to-day with whether beer has been watered. I do not believe it has to be watered now. I believe, in the way that I propose to try to show your Lordships, that the water is there originally because there is in fact no guarantee of the quality of beer by gravity in this country.
For those of your Lordships who have not tried to see what happens in the making of beer, may I say that the alcoholic strength depends on two things: first, the original proportion of solids to water; and, second, how far those solids are allowed to ferment. If the fermentation is checked at an early stage the beer created may have a strong taste—it may have plenty of what is called "body", and yet it may contain far less alcohol than otherwise would be the case. Indeed, I am told by experienced beer drinkers that they have great difficulty in determining the gravity of the beer that they are drinking. But these regular drinkers of this great English drink in the great English places, the clubs and the pubs, ought to know what it is that they are going to get; and they should know not only for ordinary reasons of quality, but for tax reasons. If every time they order a pint of beer they are going to provide a large quantity of the revenue
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that will stop your income tax and mine being pushed up a bit more, they should at least know to what extent they are doing it.
Your Lordships will probably know, if you have followed the Budget statements at any time over the years, that gravity is measured in degrees and that tax is paid on degrees. Under 1016 degrees (which is normally called a sixteenth) there is no tax payable at all, but on beers from 1016 to 1030 degrees (which is the standard) the standard taxation under the current Budgetary provisions is £5 11s. 9½d.; and on every extra degree 6s. 7½d. is payable. Therefore, the price paid for beer is so substantially related to the original gravity that it is an important thing for consideration.
Nothing of this kind would matter if anyone who knew anything about the subject in the last thirty years had any feeling of reliance in regard to the production which has gone on in the breweries, but the reports of chief inspectors of weights and measures over the years, based on samples of beer which they have taken, have given no encouragement to anybody to believe that this commodity was of a given strength or that they were getting a square deal. Had the hour not been so late I should have read in some detail from a number of the reports of chief inspectors of weights and measures throughout the country in order to try to convince your Lordships. But I propose merely to give a few samples of the kind of thing one can expect in this field.
The Chief Inspector in Kent in recent years referred to bitter beer sold at a gravity of 1029·4 to 1038·9—which is a big range—and all that bitter beer cost the same price, notwithstanding the difference: 6s. 7½d. a degree. In regard to mild beer in the County of Kent the variety ranged from 1028 to 1032·4 degrees. There again the prices were the same. I would go beyond asking your Lordships to note that the prices were the same for the same beers, and would point out that mild beer at 1032 degrees was in fact more expensive than bitter beer at only 1029. In Hull the weights and measures inspectors discovered that two samples of mild of the same price had no less than 2·5 degrees

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of difference, and in the two samples of mild beer more than 3 degrees of difference. In one pub one sample of bitter at 1s. 4½d. was 4 degrees less than the bitter sold in the same bar, though with a different name, at 1s. 3d.
In Northumberland brown ales have shown as much as 20 degrees variety among them, and stout as much as 13 degrees. Those of your Lordships who go into the North Country, where beer means a great deal to a large number of working people—and the noble Lord who is to reply, with his great knowledge of his own Yorkshire and further North, will know how right this is—know that in two wars we even got into the position of having strikes by men about the gravity of their beer. Indeed, I make no apology for reminding your Lordships, who may think that any control of the gravity of beer in an Act of Parliament is something foreign to this country, that one of the pieces of emergency legislation in 1916 was to control the content and gravity of beer. That was done on two grounds: one was with regard to the amount of the nation's foodstuffs that could be committed to beer; and the other was the giving of a standard product to munition workers and the like. But it is significant that the Government thought it good to keep that going until 1924 when, under the pressure of certain groups of people, legislation was withdrawn.
Up in the North country, where this question was so difficult, and is so difficult, the noble Lord the Minister who is to reply will know that "Best Scotch" up there does not mean the drink of which noble Lords who come from North of the Tweed think, but beer. The best account one can give of this deviation from quality is shown by a report from up there that the "Best Scotch" marketed by some companies is of a lower gravity than the ordinary beer of other brewers. One famous brewer of the North, when asked to explain by the public analyst—and I take this from the public analyst's report—said that his company could not produce the beer as cheaply as the larger concerns, so the lower gravity beer was marketed at the same price as the higher gravity beers sold by other companies. Money, he explained, was thus saved on materials, and in addition they got a rake-off on the tax that they did not have
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to pay. It is only the late hour that stops my turning the 1029 gravity into sitting down at 10.29 p.m. But benefiting from the approach that the noble Lord made on the recent Amendment, I sit down in the belief that this is such a reasonable attempt to help the Government that they cannot help falling over themselves to accept it.
Amendment moved—
Page 72, line 12, at end insert ("and
(c) in the case of beer if a notice is displayed indicating the original gravity").(Lord Crook.)
LORD LINDGREN: I do not know whether it is necessary to declare an interest, but I have one, in fact, as beer is my beverage. If I may be entirely out of order, I have a complaint that I can get a pint of beer with my lunch in your Lordships' Dining Room, but when it comes to a late Sitting and we have dinner, we are denied a pint of beer. As a beer drinker, I am interested, so far as I can be, in getting value for the money that I spend on it. I am reminded of the lawyer who, in a case before a learned judge who asked what beer was, said that it was a combination of water, science and tax, and the greatest part of it was tax.
When I was a Member in another place, the then Member for Hornchurch had quite a hobby of baiting the brewers, and we enjoyed his little exercises in regard to the activities of brewers in all sorts of ways. What I am concerned about is whether the setting of the original gravity will be any help at all to a normal beer drinker like myself, in relation to price. Because at that time, and largely arising from the statements and the activities of the then Member for Horn-church, when visiting a brewery in my constituency in Northamptonshire the head brewer said—and perhaps we can use this as a little piece of education at this time of night—that the original gravity on which tax is paid has no relationship to what I believe he called the "present gravity" when the beer is sold. In fact, after the original gravity was determined, which is before fermentation (or, at least, I understood him so), there is a degree of processing which has quite an effect upon the palate and upon the character of the beer. The final product, which that brewer, as I understood it, referred to as "present gravity", had

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no relationship whatever to original gravity.
At that time the then Member for Hornchurch was in fact rather pressing in regard to original gravity, and it was said then by this brewer, who certainly knew his trade with regard to brewing, that the publicising of the original gravity, which of course has a very great reflection on the ultimate price because it is upon that that the tax is paid, would not necessarily help and might in fact be misleading so far as the normal consumer of beer is concerned. Therefore, while I want to know, if I can, that I am getting value for money, perhaps either my noble friend Lord Crook or the noble Lord, Lord Derwent, can tell us whether in fact the naming of the original gravity would give any protection or indication to the consumer of the beer of the actual value in so far as that commodity is concerned.
10.12 p.m.
LORD DERWENT: The effect of these two Amendments would be, first, to require that where draught beer is sold for consumption on the premises a statement in writing of the original gravity must be displayed for the information of purchasers; and, secondly, to require bottled and canned beer to be marked with an indication of its original gravity. The expression "gravity" in Section 171 of the Customs and Excise Act, 1952, is defined as meaning the ratio of the weight of a volume of liquid to the weight of an equal volume of distilled water at 60 degrees Fahrenheit. In other words, it means the specific gravity of the liquid. "Original gravity" means the gravity before fermentation has taken place—and those last few words apply to the beer and not the drinker. Clearly this is a measure of quality and not of quantity, and is therefore outside the scope of this Bill, which deals with quantity. It was for this reason that a similar Amendment in another place was ruled out of order. This is not a suitable place for this Amendment, and I ask the Committee to reject it.
LORD STONHAM: Allowing for the force of the noble Lord's argument about its being outside the scope of this Bill, gravity and, as he said, strength must imply weight, and I therefore think he has dismissed it in a somewhat cavalier fashion, particularly after the
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expertise displayed by my two noble friends, who showed such a wealth of knowledge and experience in these matters. But they are quite right in saying that this is a matter which has very considerable concern. We shall be dealing in a few minutes' time with the question of the measures of spirits provided by pubs, and I would have said that there are probably ten men concerned with the gravity of beer to every one who is concerned with the measure of spirits.
I wonder whether the Government are right to dismiss this in this way. My noble friend Lord Crook said that it was difficult to know what the gravity was, but the noble Lord, Lord Derwent, has explained that the gravity is a measure of strength and quality; and that is exactly what the people who drink beer as a hobby have in mind. The noble Lord will remember the story of one of the ladies from his part of the country who had, in company with a friend, visited a strange district and sampled the beer. After about an hour his friend asked him what he thought of the beer. He said, "I really don't know, but I shall be damn glad when I've had enough".
These people do take these things seriously, and the question I want to put to the noble Lord is: if in a Bill which deals with weights we cannot deal with gravity of beer, a very important subject, under what measure can we deal with it, considering this has been a matter of acute controversial arguments, not only among customers but from the customer to the publican for very many years? We have sought to bring the matter up on this Schedule in order to get a decision from the Government, and we should like a little help from the noble Lord.
LORD DERWENT: We cannot really bring in all the matters of controversy just because they are matters of controversy. This is a question of quality. Other measures deal with short weight of beer or whether the wrong tankard is used as a measure, but this is a measure of quality. This is not the appropriate Bill, and I do not think I am the appropriate Minister to advise on legislation about quality.
THE DUKE OF ATHOLL: Does the noble Lord visualise every "olde worlde"

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pub, the beams of which we admire so much, covered not only with notices of the essential amenities of the particular hotel but also with notices stating the specific gravity of every kind of beer sold by the particular hotel?
LORD CROOK: I am not prepared to start an argument about the kind of specific gravity I should like in the beer I drink, but I am prepared to deal with what the Minister said, because clearly he is trying to put up a new variant of the argumentation put up in Parliament over the last thirty years. On this occasion perhaps he is trying to take the place of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Whatever the noble Lord may say, my statement is completely accurate. The method of original taxation of the beer of this country is on the original gravity of beer. This translation by Ministers and by opponents of this kind of thing in another place has always been related to the attempt to show that the specific gravity, the original gravity, was merely part of the qualification of the beer. In fact I have some of the stuff of the brilliant arguments of the Brewers' Association about this over the past. It was part of the quality depending on factors, of which the strength referred to is only one, such as flavour; palatefulness—a wonderful word: do not ask me to take responsibility for it; blend; flavour of malt and hops, natural raw materials which are never uniform from year to year or between farm and farm; head retention (this does not mean what your Lordships may think—keeping your head—it is just to keep a head on top to make it possible to make a little extra money); briskness; brightness, and so forth; and, for certain beers, hops of special quality, pick of the malting barley or protracted treatment of barley malt may be needed. Nobody denies that all those things are there and it is for the buyer to make his choice of quality.
I am attempting to do here what my noble friends have tried to do over a period of years: to secure the kind of thing we had thought Her Majesty's Government were trying to secure in this measure and in other measures—that is, a square and fair deal for the working people of this country. If I put my argument to-day on no higher plane than that, I should be putting it on a very
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good one. You nearly got into trouble, very seriously, in two wars, on this. In fact, there were strikes and the then Prime Minister, who has just announced that he is giving up Parliament shortly, to our regret, with my friend Ernest Bevin, then Minister of Labour, had to deal with a firm hand with the troubles that came from lack of beer up on the North-East coast. These are real issues where working people are concerned. It is simple for us, who have no bigger grouse than that we pay a penny more in this House than in the other and cannot get beer with our dinner but only with lunch. But to working men this is one of their relaxations and it is a serious issue. I press the Government not to keep on sitting on the working people with this kind of argument.
LORD DERWENT: May I say that I agree with 70 per cent., possibly 75 per cent., of what the noble Lord says, but this is not the Bill for this Amendment.
LORD CROOK: Then may I ask the noble Lord two things? Could he tell me, in view of our lack of success over the past thirty years, whether the Government could offer any guidance on what kind of Bill would be appropriate to receive this and whether, in the absence of any provision in this Bill, the Government will take steps to introduce an appropriate measure?
LORD DERWENT: I do not think that the legislation is yet drafted. Perhaps the noble Lord would like to try to draft it privately.
LORD CROOK: I would rather try draught beer. May I ask leave to withdraw the Amendment?
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
10.22 p.m.
LORD STONHAM LORD STONHAM moved, in paragraph 3(a), after "one quarter" to insert "and". The noble Lord said: I hope it will meet your Lordships' convenience if I deal with Amendments Nos. 54 and 55 together. These two Amendments would have the effect of allowing gin, rum, vodka and whisky to be sold in nips only of 1/4th or 1/5th of a gill, instead of three different measures including 1/6th. This is a serious and I think useful Amendment which, if accepted, will make things much better

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and much simpler for everyone concerned. I remember when we discussed this two years ago—it certainly will be within the recollection of the noble Duke, the Duke of Atholl, who I am glad is going to help us again on this to-night—the noble Earl, Lord Dundee, said that in Scotland they regard 1/6th of a gill as merely a dirty glass. That is what the Government wish to inflict on Englishmen—a dirty glass. In Scotland, they firmly adhere to their quarter of a gill.
I understand that their adherence to this is weakening and at times a lesser measure is accepted, and if that movement had gone any farther than it has my Amendment would have been to have only one measure, namely, 1/5th of a gill, in all licensed establishments in the United Kingdom. But I have limited the Amendment so as to exclude 1/6th and therefore leave the Scots to have their quarter of a gill, if they wish, and people in England and presumably in Wales to have 1/5th, though the publican has to choose which of the two he will have.
The practical case for this Amendment rests on the fact that there is little discernible difference between the two measures, one-fifth and one-sixth. This is a matter of importance to the customers, and of particular importance to the enforcement officers, the weights and measures inspectorate. One-quarter gill equals 1¼ fluid ounces; one-fifth equals 1 fluid ounce, and one-sixth equals 0·83 of a fluid ounce. The difference between 1 and 0·83 is very small. I think the matter would be difficult of enforcement, and it seems to me to be foolish to have this multiplicity. It gives an opportunity to some proprietors, perhaps less generous and less scrupulous than others, to inflict the smallest measure on their customers, and probably overcharge for it.
The most important point, I believe, is the question of enforcement, because we are going to throw a great deal of excess work on the weights and measures inspectors. It seems to me that it would be much more sensible just to have the one-quarter and one-fifth measures, and allow the licensee to choose between those two. It seems to me that there is no real justification for permitting the three-quantity basis for the sale of these
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liquors. I hope that the Government will regard this as a sensible and useful Amendment and accept it, and so reduce the alternative to two measures. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 72, line 19, after ("one quarter") insert ("and").—(Lord Stonham.)
10.27 p.m.
LORD DERWENT: I do not think that difficulties of enforcement are really going to exist. The point at issue is this: that different measures are commonly used for these spirits—and, incidentally, we are talking about gin, rum, vodka and whisky—
LORD STONHAM: And vodka.
LORD DERWENT: Vodka is included nowadays, yes. But different measures are commonly used for these spirits in different parts of the country, and one sixth of a gill, which the noble Lord does not like, is commonly used in the South of England. The Government do not think it would be right to force customers to change their habits merely for the sake of uniformity. We are reducing the number of measures to the three most commonly used, and to go further than this at present, as the Amendment proposes, would force customers in many areas to have more than they want, at a higher price than they may be willing to pay, and, what is perhaps more important, higher than they are accustomed to paying. Obviously, if sellers of spirits had to dispense a larger measure than they do now—which is what the Amendment would in many cases require—the price would go up.
On the other hand, if local customs should change and one measure only should become accepted—supposing the South of England gave up using one-sixth of gill—then the President of the Board of Trade has power to amend the Schedule by order. I suggest that that is how it ought to be left at the moment. It really is dictating too much to people to say to them that their area has always used one-sixth of a gill, but that they will be the same as Yorkshire and must use one-fifth. But should that not become an issue at a later date, and should uniformity be required because people are not using one of the measures, we can easily make the order.
LORD CROOK: I am bound to say that the Minister's advisers have not given him very accurate advice. On what he has been saying two or three ways round he is quite wrong. He is suggesting that this kind of measure is now commonly in use in the South of England. He is also suggesting that if we do what is set out in the Amendment we are imposing a dictation. I would reply that if we are imposing a dictation it is just a tiny bit more than the Government are going to do in the Bill.
I want to give the advice to the noble Lord that he has not been given by those who have advised him about what is the present position in the service of drinks in this great Metropolis. Drinks are not served in this Metropolis at the moment by this kind of measure at all. The kind of measure which the noble Lord has claimed is common, is not, in fact, common. There will be changes in measure and in price all over London immediately this Bill becomes law. At the moment, these spirits, particularly whisky, are sold by measures called optics, manipulated by a flick of the finger, from the bottle. You can buy those optics—I will take the noble Lord to look at them if he has never seen them—to give anything from 32 to 21 drinks out of a bottle. It depends entirely upon the nature of the place to which you go—and not always the price you want to pay—and your ability to make your own judgment, what it is you will get.
If you go into some of the night clubs to which some Members of your, Lordships' House have been, and I have always wanted to go, you will know that inside the optics it is possible to put a little piece of glass, so that even if you think you are getting a 21 optic the piece of glass in the middle is giving you 28. I am surprised that the noble Lord was not told this, because it is one of the commonest scandals that has been known to anybody who has tried to deal with this kind of thing, as I have, over a period of time. I would ask the noble Lord to believe that this may be just that little bit more dictation, but so small that we express our concern, as well as our surprise and pleasure, that the Government have gone as far as they have.
LORD DERWENT: I am glad that I have been able to please the noble Lord
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with one matter. When this Bill is in force the practice of which he complains will be absolutely, without a peradventure, illegal.
On Question, Amendment negatived.
EARL FERRERS EARL FERRERS moved to add to Part VI, paragraph 3:
"and nothing in this paragraph shall make unlawful the sale at the express request of the buyer of any mixture of liquids containing any of the liquors aforesaid in a quantity not otherwise permitted by this paragraph."
The noble Earl said: This Amendment, I am sure, will readily commend itself to your Lordships. The purpose of it is to permit the sale of draught spirits in mixtures in quantities other than those specified in the Schedule where the buyer expressly so requests. As at present drafted, the Schedule permits the sale of whisky, gin, rum and vodka only, as we have been discussing, in quantities of a quarter gill, a fifth of a gill or a sixth of a gill or multiples thereof, except where the spirit forms part of a mixture of three or more liquids.
In discussion in another place, it was suggested that this requirement was too restrictive, since in the case of certain mixtures of two liquids, the customer would be unable to get the drink that he or she wanted. It was pointed out that some people prefer their gin and vermouth, or their gin and Dubonnet, with less than the full measure of gin.
Other, less abstemious, gentlemen require it with a full measure of gin. They might, for example, want two-thirds vermouth to one third gin—or they might want Dubonnet with only a dash of gin. In either case, the obligation on the seller to give the full measure of gin could result in a drink which was larger, or contained more spirit, than the customer wanted. Again, another person might want a particular amount of gin with his vermouth that was larger than the measure normally provided by the bar. There was general support in another place for an Amendment to deal with this problem by allowing the sale of a mixture containing a different quantity of spirit from the measures specified in the Schedule where the buyer expressly demanded it. My honourable friend the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Science could not accept that particular Amendment, but he promised to

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consider it and introduce into this House a suitable Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 72, line 31, at end insert the said words.—(Earl Ferrers.)
Part VI agreed to.
LORD DERWENT: I wonder whether noble Lords would agree that this is a suitable moment to break off? May I also make the announcement that we shall continue with this, and hope to finish the Committee stage, after the debate on the Radcliffe Report to-morrow.
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I beg to move that the House do now resume.
Moved, That the House do now resume.—(Lord Derwent.)
On Question, Motion agreed to, and House resumed accordingly.

CORN RENTS BILL
10.35 p.m.
House in Committee (according to Order).
House resumed: Bill reported without amendment; Report received.

THE CASE OF KENNETH EDWARD HOLMES
10.37 p.m.
LORD STONHAM LORD STONHAM rose to call attention to the Petition of Kenneth Edward Holmes ordered to lie on the Table on March 7 last and to ask Her Majesty's Government—

(1) whether they will make available for inspection the results of the previous medical examinations of Mr. Holmes;

(2) whether they will authorise an independent medical examination of Mr. Holmes;

(3) whether they will now release Mr. Holmes.

The noble Lord said: My Lords, even though the hour is late and we have had a long day, I am raising this Question tonight, first to ask justice for a criminal and, second, to draw attention to the much wider implications of the case, because, as I will show, the rights of the subject and civil liberties have been withheld in a manner which has shocked members of the legal profession who have knowledge of this case.
The man concerned is Kenneth Holmes, now aged 40, who for the last eight years of his life has been a prisoner at Dartmoor. When he was thirteen he was convicted of shopbreaking and arson and sent to an approved school. At the age of 16 he was again sent to an approved school on conviction for attempted shop-breaking and malicious wounding. In July, 1941, he enlisted in the Royal Air Force and was called up in April, 1942. He was discharged in July, 1945, and I have his discharge certificate here. It records that his conduct on discharge was "good" and the top right-hand corner of the discharge is still attached to it. It is only cut off if an airman is discharged with a bad character. But most important, however, is the statement on the certificate
"This airman has been accepted for air crew and has been awaiting training as an air gunner."
I would mention that this is important because if there had been anything psychologically wrong he would not have been accepted as air crew because the
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medical conditions for acceptance are extremely stringent.
In 1947 this man was convicted of shopbreaking and sentenced to four years' imprisonment, but, at the same time, he was found guilty but insane of arson and sent to Broadmoor. Two years later he was released and the remainder of his sentence was remitted; and I submit that he would not have been so released if there had been any doubt about his mental condition. During the next six years he was employed by, and eventually obtained a controlling interest in, a firm of surgical instrument makers and was mainly responsible for the direction of the company. He employed eighteen people and had a personal income of some £2,000 a year. During this period he married.
However, in February, 1955, he was convicted of the rape of an 11-year-old girl and was sentenced to 10 years' imprisonment, in my view a proper, though perhaps severe, sentence for an abominable crime. I should, however, say that Holmes has persistently denied that he was guilty as charged and during the eight years he has tried by every possible means to obtain evidence which he claims will establish his innocence. These efforts have been just as persistently frustrated by the Home Office. It is, however, essential to record that Mr. Justice Byrne, after reading the report by the Leeds Prison Medical Officer stated that Holmes had—and I quote:
"no history of any recurrence of mental trouble since he left prison in 1949 and that in the doctor's opinion he was of sound mind and fully responsible for his actions."
This was in February, 1955. No evidence to the contrary has ever been given, and the Prison Commissioners obviously have no doubt of his sanity, because he was sent to Dartmoor and has remained there ever since.
In 1957 my right honourable friend Mr. Chuter Ede, a former Home Secretary, who took up the case, was informed in writing by the Home Secretary that there was no question but that Holmes was sane, and I myself was given a similar Answer when I raised the matter in 1958. Holmes was refused leave to appeal against conviction but was granted leave to appeal against sentence. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Goddard, then Lord Chief Justice, in

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giving judgment, referred to the conviction for malicious wounding when Holmes was a boy of 16 and the conviction in 1947 when he was found insane and sent to Broadmoor. Lord Goddard declared, despite the evidence to the contrary given at Holmes' trial, that—and I quote:
"he must be to some degree mentally unstable and is a deadly menace".
He altered the sentence of ten years to one which left it entirely
"in the discretion of the Home Secretary when the man is fit to be released,"—
in other words a life sentence. The noble Lord added:
"If he "—
that is Holmes—
"is found to be insane he will go back to Broadmoor."
He was not so found and did not go to Broadmoor.
In March, 1955, a month after he was convicted, the Prison Commissioners refused to allow Holmes to sign cheques, as he was entitled to do under Prison Rule 380. This caused him to be sued in a civil suit, and the writ against him was received by the Prison Governor in June, 1955. But the writ was withheld and he was refused permission even to consult a solicitor until November, 1955, after he had complained to the board of visitors. As a result of this, the man lost his business and his assets and, of course was ruined, quite unnecessarily. He has persistently tried to obtain the permission of the Home Secretary to sue the Prison Commissioners for their wrongful action, but he has just as persistently been refused permission by the Home Office. I would mention, in order that your Lordships may not think these actions might be frivolous or vexatious, that he has since in prison successfully sued his bank and recovered £500.
For the last five years I have persistently pursued this man's case with successive Secretaries and Under-Secretaries of State at the Home Office. I suppose that, together, he and I, and his solicitors, have exchanged about one million words, and there have been numerous letters to the Home Office and a number of interviews with Ministers. In one of those Mr. Dennis Vosper, then Under-Secretary of State, suggested to me there should be a special medical examination to see if this man needed,
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and would benefit from, a course of psychiatric treatment; and to this I naturally readily assented. There was a medical examination but no treatment, for the very sound reason that the doctors decided that none was needed. The prison doctor, Dr. Lloyd, certified that no treatment was needed and that the man was not insane. In fact since 1955 the Home Office has received a proliferation of medical reports "which they flatly refuse to produce." But I understand that they are conclusive in affirming, confirming and reaffirming that this man does not require treatment for any form of mental disorder.
My own view, of course, was that the Home Secretary would decide to exercise his discretion and release the man in October, 1961, some 18 months ago, when he had served six years and eight months in prison, which, with remission, would have been equal to the original 10 years' sentence. I was supported in this view by the fact that in July, August and September, 1960, Holmes was temporarily released on parole for visits to his family, to his father in Leeds, who was then seriously ill. This man was then completely at liberty, under no sort of supervision, and I submit that the Home Office would not have allowed him such freedom if they had thought he was a danger to society. Indeed, they have refused to allow him further visits on parole to his family only since I have pointed to this anomaly and pressed for the production of the medical reports as a preliminary to the man's release.
Failing any kind of success in my attempt to get a date set for his release, Holmes employed a solicitor to act for him. I hope that the solicitor will not mind my saying that he is an ordinary, efficient West country solicitor, with a general practice, to whom his experiences with the Home Office in acting for Holmes have been a major shock. And in order that I may not be accused of bias or lack of restraint in presenting this case, I will from now on use the solicitor's own words, and the replies from the Home Office, in telling the remainder of the story.
On September 4 last year the solicitor wrote to the Under-Secretary of State recounting the facts that I have already

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related, and adding these points—I quote:
"In 1960, Mr. Holmes applied for a writ of habeas corpus and Lord Justice Parker took the view that the Court, on a writ of habeas corpus, was not concerned with the refusal of the Home Secretary to release the man. The question of whether or not Mr. Holmes was mentally unstable was indeed a matter for the decision of the Home Secretary. Mr. Holmes has applied to the Prison Commissioners for permission to institute proceedings for mandamus and certiorari, both of which have been refused.
"It would seem to me that Mr. Holmes' sentence is one which is far too severe and that the Court of Appeal were misguided in taking the view that he was mentally unstable, especially as never before had he committed any sort of sexual offence.
"Mr. Holmes seems to have exhausted every avenue for getting his case reviewed and, indeed, the refusal to allow him to issue a writ of mandamus and certiorari is one which has prevented him from doing any more. The only avenue now open to him would seem to be to address a Petition to both Houses of Parliament asking that he be released."
The solicitor went on, writing to the Home Secretary:
"I would therefore ask you to state

(a) The reason why you refused to release Mr. Holmes.

(b) Bearing in mind that the Judge's reason for altering his sentence was that they considered him mentally unstable, have you any medical evidence of any sort which would justify you in coming to the conclusion that the Judges were correct?

(c) Is it true that Dr. Lloyd has certified that this man is sane, and needs no treatment? If so, how can his release be denied to him, as he has already served more than his original sentence?

(d) Are you prepared to state any date on which you will release Mr. Holmes?"

On October 8 the reply from the Home Office said that the case would continue to be kept under regular view, but that the time had not come when the Secretary of State was justified in fixing a date for Holmes's release. They added:
"The case is not one in which psychotherapy or any other form of medical treatment would be likely to be of benefit at the present time."—
That was two years after the prison doctor had said that none was needed—
"The Secretary of State is not prepared to agree for you to arrange to have Holmes examined by a specialist outside the Prison Service".
Finally, referring to the request for facilities for visits by the solicitor far preparing the petition to Parliament, the letter continued:
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"The Secretary of State finds no reason to direct that Holmes should be granted special facilities in the way of visits and correspondence in this matter."
To this the solicitor replied:
"I must protest at your refusal to allow this man to be independently examined, and I must ask you for your reason for this. Please let me have it. In my submission, as a British citizen Holmes has a right to be told why you are doing so and also to receive from you details of the disease or ailment from which you allege he is suffering and which in your opinion is so serious as to warrant your depriving him of his liberty.
"I must also protest at your insistence that my visits to the prison should come out of Mr. Holmes's normal quota allowed to him. It amounts to this. My visits are being restricted, and further Mr. Holmes' correspondence with me is also being restricted. You must realise that this is hampering me in my duty to my client, and I would like to know your reason for this decision. Also it has taken you over one month to deal with this most serious matter during which time this man has been kept in prison."
On October 22 the Secretary of State agreed to grant reasonable facilities to enable Holmes to provide such information as his solicitor required in preparation of the Petition. On February 28 the Petition was sent to me, and the Home Secretary was informed accordingly. At the same time the solicitor said this to the Home Secretary:
"In view, however, of your refusal to allow my client to be independently examined, I must now ask you to make available to me, as Mr. Holmes' legal adviser, and also to Lord Stonham, who is presenting the Petition, the medical records of Mr. Holmes. I refer to the records in general, and, in particular, to one dated October 31, 1962, and a further report dated January 22, 1963.
"I understand that these reports were made by the Medical Officer of Dartmoor Prison, and that you have been supplied with copies thereof. It seems to me that if you are refusing to allow this man his liberty on the grounds that he is suffering mental abnormality, and you are at the same time refusing to allow an independent doctor to examine him, then in common courtesy to him it is only right that he should have access to the medical records which are presumably a basis of your refusal to release him.
"I shall, of course, be prepared to pay your charges for supplying me with copies of all the relevant documents."
On the same day the solicitor informed me that he had seen Holmes in prison and that the medical reports had been read to him by the Medical Officer of Dartmoor Prison. One of these reports, dated October 31, 1962, stated that it was quite improbable that Mr. Holmes

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would ever be convicted of a similar offence again, and when Mr. Holmes was again examined on January 22 this year the medical report confirmed that there was no abnormality, and again reiterated that it was quite improbable that he would repeat his offence.
On March 4 the solicitor wrote to the Prison Commissioners saying that he had seen Holmes who had mentioned that he had petitioned for permission to institute a civil action against the Prison Commissioners for damages. The solicitor did not go into detail because he had authority only to see Holmes in connection with his Petition, but he gathered that it arose from the Prison Commissioners' refusal to allow him to defend an action which was taken against him while he was in prison, as a result of which his business was forfeited. In asking the Commissioners to grant him permission to see Mr. Holmes, so that he could advise him as to his legal rights in connection therewith, the solicitor also referred to the need for an early reply as the time for commencing proceedings might soon be Statute-barred—which of course is important to-him.
On March 22 the solicitor was informed that the Secretary of State was not prepared to grant Holmes facilities to institute legal proceedings against the Prison Commissioners, and he therefore saw no reason to allow Holmes to obtain legal advice to that end. He would therefore be obliged if the solicitor would be good enough to continue to regard discussion of the subject as outside the purpose of the visits—indeed, the solicitor has to sign an undertaking every time he goes to the prison that he will discuss only the matter for which he has been granted permission to visit Holmes. He concludes his letter to me with these words:
"You will see from the reply of 22nd March, 1963, sent herewith that the Home Office refuses to allow this man even to have legal advice upon the matter, which again I think is a monstrous thing."
My Lords, so do I. In a later letter the solicitor says:
"I may say that having had this experience myself it makes me wonder how many more persons are in prison in this country under similar circumstances. Mr. Holmes happens to be a man of sufficient intelligence and education to be able to take matters up and fight for his own liberty, but what would
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happen in a case where a man had by means of lack of education or ability been in a similar position I simply shudder to think."—
And I repeat, again, that the writer of this letter is a normal run-of-the-mill West Country solicitor.—
"Mr. Holmes has been refused permission to consult me concerning his civil rights against the Prison Commissioners who of course have prevented him from defending actions, which necessitated the liquidation of his company and as a result of which he has lost both his livelihood and a considerable amount of money. Naturally when Mr. Holmes is released he will be coming to see me, and maybe the Prison Commissioners will hear even more about this matter."
On April 4 the solicitor wrote to the Home Secretary just once more, and said:
"I am at a loss to understand your attitude in this matter, because, as I understand it, you are detaining this man in custody and saying in fact that he is not fit to be released into the world. You base your refusal to allow him his liberty upon his medical condition. You refuse to allow his medical records to be seen by his legal representative, and therefore the correctness or otherwise of your decision cannot be challenged from the medical record. On the other hand, when a request is made that you permit this man to be examined by independent specialists, so that the matter can be looked into, you again refuse to let anyone except the prison medical officers examine this man.
"You will doubtless appreciate that the rights of the subject and civil liberties are involved in this case, and it seems quite wrong that you should have the power to detain this man and to refuse to allow anyone to check up on his condition whatsoever. It is even more surprising to note from the correspondence that although you try and justify your refusal to allow him his liberty on medical grounds, you cannot name any complaint from which he is suffering and you say that he does not want any treatment of any sort."
Meanwhile, on March 7, I presented the Petition in your Lordships' House. It set out all the facts of this man's criminal career and sentence, and asked Her Majesty's Government (1) Whether they will make available for inspection the results of the previous medical examinations of Mr. Holmes; (2) Whether they will authorise an independent medical examination; and (3) Whether they will now release him. Five days after the presentation of my Petition in your Lordships' House, Mr. Brooke wrote to my right honourable friend Mr. Chuter Ede with reference to Holmes, and said:
"I am afraid that I am not yet prepared to fix a date for his release from prison on licence."

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Ten days later, however, having presumably meanwhile studied the Petition, and having received my letter saying that I intended to raise the matter in your Lordships' House, the Home Secretary wrote to me saying:
"As it happens, Holmes' Petition has been presented at a time when I already had his case under review."
He suggested that I might care to defer my action in the matter, because he expected to reach a decision one way or the other quite soon. To this naturally I readily consented, and, on April 25, Mr. Brooke informed me that he had decided that, subject to his continued good conduct in prison, and to satisfactory arrangements for his resettlement, Holmes will be released on licence when he has been detained for nine years; that is, on February 13, 1964. My Lords, that would be the equivalent of a sentence of 13½ years—and it is not good enough.
So I renewed my previous appeal for the production of the medical certificates or for permission to have an independent medical examination, but this morning I received another letter from the Home Secretary again confirming his refusal to allow me to see the medical report on Holmes or to have him examined independently. From these refusals I submit that only one conclusion can be drawn—namely, that the Home Secretary is aware, and has always been aware, that this man is not insane, that he does not need medical treatment and that he is not a danger to society. The refusal to agree to either of the first two courses set out in the Petition is, in my view, unconscionable and indefensible, and is a denial of the basic elements of British justice. If the Home Secretary can forecast that this man will be fit to be released next February, he must know he is fit to be released now. Conversely, if he is a danger to the public now, what, I ask, makes the Home Secretary think that, without any sort of treatment, he will cease to be a danger in February, 1964?
My Lords, if this man committed that abominable crime he has been punished for it, and punished far more than the learned Judge thought was necessary when he passed the original and severe sentence of ten years. At Dartmoor, this man is a "trusty". He can go where
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he likes; and, despite his unyielding demeanour and his rather sardonic humour, he is a respected person in the prison. He wrote to me the other day in these words:
"I enclose the letter I received from my mother this week. My dogs have died, my little daughter is ill"—
he has scarcely seen her; she is eight years old—
"my father is bedridden. My mother is an old-age pensioner now compelled to work merely to exist. All my applications to be allowed home leave or extended parole are refused. While the Home Office pundits are pondering the signs and portents of my intractability, it has not yet penetrated their official intelligence that my hostility is reasonably derived from the oppressive manner in which all the might of their combined authority has been and is being applied to cause the greatest possible damage to my personal and domestic and business life and to affect my family to such an extent. I am refused employment under the hostel scheme and refused my entitlement to be released."
In my submission, my Lords, the facts indicate that this man is sane, that he is not a menace to society, and that be has been punished enough. Therefore, I ask your Lordships to say that the Home Secretary must produce the medical reports or, if he will not, then I ask you in common justice to say that this man must be released immediately.
11.4 p.m.
THE MINISTER OF STATE, HOME OFFICE (EARL JELLICOE): My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Stonham, has for a long time taken a close and continuing interest in this case; and it is, likewise, a case which has for long been the subject of the most attentive consideration by my right honourable friend and his predecessors. There are at present, my Lords, nearly 300 persons serving sentences of life imprisonment in England and Wales. All these cases—I repeat, all of them—are kept under the most careful and continuing review. Having read the papers (or perhaps it would be more accurate to say "some of the papers," since the file on this case is enormous), including the voluminous correspondence between my Department and the noble Lord, I should like personally to vouch for the deep seriousness with which this case, like others of its sort but this case particularly, has always been dealt with in my Department.
I do not think I need go back over the life history of Holmes. The noble Lord,

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Lord Stonham, has given the facts very fully. As for the case: he was tried and convicted at York Assizes in February, 1955, on charges of rape and indecent assault. I would add only one fact, and that was that his wife, Mrs. Holmes, was convicted of aiding and abetting rape and was sentenced at that time to eighteen months imprisonment. But I do not wish to enlarge on the details of what, by all consent, was an unpleasing case. So far as the question of appeal was concerned, I would merely remind noble Lords that in giving judgment the then Chief Justice, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Goddard, said that the Court had come to the conclusion that it was their duty—and I quote his words:
"…to pass a sentence that will leave it entirely in the hands of the Home Secretary as to when the man is fit to be released."
As the noble Lord has mentioned (and although I think that in his mention of it there was an implication that my right honourable friend may have been influenced by the Petition which was before your Lordships House in this matter I do not want to follow the noble Lord down that avenue, except to say that this is not so), my right honourable friend already had this case under review at the time of the noble Lord's latest representations. In the light of the further review, and again after very careful consideration of all the circumstances of this extremely difficult case, my right honourable friend decided—and so informed the noble Lord, as he has informed us—that, subject to Holmes's continued good conduct in prison and satisfactory arrangements for his resettlement on release, he would be released on licence on February 13 next year. He will then have served nine years of the sentence of life imprisonment which the Court of Criminal Appeal substituted for the sentence of ten years imprisonment which was passed on him by the trial judge.
Before turning to the three specific questions which the noble Lord has asked me in his Question, I feel, in view of what he has said, that I should comment (and I will do so as briefly as I can) on one or two of the ether matters which he has raised. I say that I will comment briefly, but that is not because of the lateness of the hour—because this is a very serious case, and I am uninfluenced by the lateness of the hour in this respect. The noble Lord has
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alluded to Holmes's persistent claim—and he has persistently claimed this—that he was wrongfully convicted of this terrible crime. All I would say is that his representations to this effect have been very carefully considered and a full inquiry was made into them. At no time, however, have any grounds emerged which would justify my right honourable friend or his predecessors in recommending any interference with that conviction. I would remind noble Lords that it is not, and, in my view, cannot be the practice of the Home Secretary, or of any Home Secretary to attempt to re-try cases. The exercise of the Prerogative or the reference to the Court of Criminal Appeal is, of course, contemplated only where there comes to notice some new evidence which was not available at the time of the trial.
The noble Lord has also claimed that there has been unwarranted interference with Holmes's communications with his solicitors. This, of course, was not one of the specific points which he mention in his Question. I wish in general to repudiate the suggestion that there has been any unwarranted interference of any sort; but I should like, if I may, to have a chance of looking at these detailed allegations which the noble Lord has made, and I will write to him about them and, if necessary, inform the House. However, I certainly wish here and now to repudiate his general contention.
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, if the noble Earl will allow me, I quoted the actual letter from the Home Office denying facilities. That decision was later reversed and I also quoted that.
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, what I was repudiating was the claim that this action was unwarranted, but, as I say, I will look into the details. As I have said, my right honourable friend has come to the conclusion, subject to certain conditions, that Holmes may be released on licence on February 13, 1964. However, I understand that the noble Lord is still dissatisfied with the way in which the case has been decided and with my right honourable friend's refusal to make available medical reports on Holmes, or to authorise an independent medical examination.
As I understand the noble Lord's argument—he will correct me if I am wrong—it is as follows. The Court of

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Criminal Appeal, in substituting a life—that is, an indeterminate—sentence for the ten-year sentence previously passed on Holmes had in mind, among other things, that Holmes had recently been for a time in Broadmoor; and it follows from this and from other aspects of the course of judgment—in the noble Lord's view—that the Home Secretary, in deciding on the period of Holmes's detention, should be guided primarily, if not solely, by medical considerations. That is to say, if there were signs of mental abnormality, Holmes should be given appropriate treatment; but if there were no such signs, there could be no real justification for detaining him. It is against this background, as I understand it, that the noble Lord wishes to have the medical reports already made on Holmes produced, or to secure, subject to and dependent upon the evidence of such reports or an independent investigation, that Holmes should be immediately released.
LORD STONHAM: Or treated.
EARL JELLICOE: Yes, my Lords, or treated. I would say straight away that my right honourable friend is unable to accept this view of the case. One can certainly conceive circumstances where the question of release of a prisoner who is serving a sentence of life imprisonment may depend mainly, if not solely, on medical considerations. But this is not such a case. As my right honourable friend's predecessor informed the noble Lord, the conclusion which he, Mr. Butler, reached, after full consideration of the medical reports, was that Holmes's case was not one calling for any special form of medical treatment. My right honourable friend has found no reason to dissent from this conclusion. The case is therefore one, in my right honourable friend's view, which must be determined on other grounds and I shall refer in a moment or two to the general considerations which my right honourable friend takes into account in considering the period for which a person sentenced to life imprisonment should be detained. This being so, I would suggest that the question of medical reports is really something of a side issue.
Nevertheless, I should like to deal with the noble Lord's requests regarding those medical reports. As my right
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honourable friend has already told the noble Lord, medical reports on prisoners are confidential to my right honourable friend, and it would certainly be entirely contrary to practice to disclose them. My right honourable friend regrets that he is unable to make an exception in this instance. The noble Lord may suggest—indeed, I think he has suggested it—that our practice here is wrong. But, my Lords, I would suggest that there is a very good reason for it. To disclose confidential medical reports of this type would surely be bound to inhibit the very nature of the reports provided by prison medical officers in the future, if we were to make a practice of this sort of thing. I would suggest, therefore, that there are solid grounds for not making an exception here to our longstanding practice.
Now I come to the question of an independent medical examination. It is, of course, open to my right honourable friend to arrange for a prisoner to be examined by an independent specialist if this is considered either necessary or desirable; but this is a matter for my right honourable friend to determine in the circumstances of the individual case, and he cannot accept that he is under an obligation to arrange for such an examination whenever it is requested by a prisoner or by his legal adviser or by other persons who may be intervening, quite properly, on his behalf. There is no question here of there being an issue between the prisoner, on the one hand, and the Home Secretary, on the other, which requires to be referred to or determined by some third party. It is entirely my right honourable friend's responsibility, in accordance with the discretion which Parliament has vested in him, to decide what medical advice he requires in any particular case; and in this instance, for the reasons which I have already indicated, my right honourable friend is entirely satisfied that an independent medical examination would not be of assistance.
I should now like to come to what I think has been the noble Lord's main point in his argument. He has urged very forcibly that my right honourable friend should release Holmes now, in default of medical evidence to the contrary, and he has argued this on the grounds that if Holmes may safely be released on licence in February next

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year there is no reason on earth why he should not be released now on May 7, 1963. The noble Lord has bolstered his argument by pointing to the fact that Holmes is a "red band" prisoner—a "trusty "—and that he was released on parole on three separate days in 1960. I should like to deal with those two subsidiary arguments straight away. Holmes is, in fact, a "trusty". At Dartmoor he is employed in the gardens and greenhouses of the prison, and during that employment he is not under escort. But, my Lords, such freedom of movement within prison is a very different matter from freedom of movement outside the prison walls. Again, it is true that Holmes was released on parole in 1960 on three occasions to visit his father who was dangerously ill. But, here again, to release a prisoner for a matter of hours on compassionate grounds, with strict instructions to return by a particular time—the prisoner being fully aware of the consequence of abusing the conditions of his release—is a very different matter from releasing a man on licence.
I come back, in conclusion, to the noble Lord's main contention in favour of Holmes's early release. I would remind noble Lords that under Section 27 of the Prison Act, 1952, the Home Secretary has absolute discretion as to when a person serving a sentence of life imprisonment should be released on licence. It seems quite clear from the judgment of the Court of Criminal Appeal, which I have already quoted, that their intention was to leave the) timing of Holmes's release entirely to my right honourable friend's discretion. In considering the period for which such a person should be detained the Home Secretary takes into account—is bound to take into account—all the circumstances of the case, including the nature of the offence, the character and history of the offender, and any other relevant information. While great weight must obviously be given to medical advice in matters of this sort, that advice is not necessarily the paramount consideration.
I would emphasise that it is not, and never has been, the practice of the Home Secretary—of a Home Secretary, I prefer to say—to give reasons for his decision in a particular case. To do so would be bound to involve public discussion and
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controversy about the detailed circumstances of the offender, about his conduct and development, whether favourable or otherwise, in prison, of a kind which would be highly detrimental to the prisoner's own interests and to his prospects of ultimate resettlement and rehabilitation. I have been indeed under some constraint, my Lords, in replying to the noble Lord, in that I felt it right not to depart from this principle, and thus I have avoided entering into some details of the case which we have been discussing. But I would emphasise that, as regards the fixing of the date for Holmes's release, the normal practice in life cases has been carefully and strictly observed. Your Lordships will know that Holmes was recently informed that he would be released on licence in February next. It is thought to be helpful, where the prisoner has served a substantial term of imprisonment, for him to be given ample notice before his release. This helps such a prisoner to make the necessary arrangements for his resettlement.
Again I should like to remind the noble Lord that he himself has urged from time to time—and I do not quarrel with this at all—that Holmes should be given a date of release to enable him to be considered for the hostel scheme. He will doubtless remember that my right honourable friend's predecessor gave an undertaking that, when the time came, a date would be fixed sufficiently far in advance for the necessary preparatory arrangements to be made. A prisoner who is included in the hostel scheme normally spends something like six or nine months in the hostel before release, and his case is considered by the hostel selection board about ten months before the date of release. I should like to mention to the noble Lord that I have had inquiries made at Dartmoor prison about the possibility of Holmes's taking part in the hostel scheme, and I can assure the noble Lord that if Holmes applies to be considered for the scheme he will be interviewed in the normal way by a selection board.
LORD STONHAM: May I interrupt the noble Earl to say that I told Holmes today to apply for the scheme? I understand that there is a board meeting on May 21. If there could be some hope that he could be accepted by the board

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on that day for the scheme it would remove a considerable part of my objection to the later date.
EARL JELLICOE: I think the selection board must be allowed to exercise its independent judgment in this matter. I can certainly confirm that the selection board is meeting on that date, and if Holmes's application is properly made it will, of course, be carefully considered by the board. I think, without trespassing in any way on the board's independence, I can certainly give the noble Lord that assurance.
I am afraid I have dealt with the case at some length, as indeed did the noble Lord. I make no apology for doing so, because it is, I agree, a grave and serious one and deserves to be dealt with seriously. I do not doubt that I have failed to carry the noble Lord with me in much that I have said. But, my Lords, I must, in conclusion, again emphasise that the question whether, or when, a prisoner serving a sentence of life imprisonment should be released on licence lies entirely within the discretion of my right honourable friend. I am sure, speaking personally, that this cardinal principle is right. But I would once again assure the noble Lord that, in exercising the discretion with which he has been entrusted by Parliament, my right honourable friend has come to his decision in this case only after the most careful and earnest consideration of all the circumstances.

UNIVERSITY OF DURHAM AND NEWCASTLE UPON TYNE BILL
Reported, with Amendments.

KILLINGHOLME JETTY BILL
Brought from the Commons; read 1a, and referred to the Examiners.
House adjourned at twenty-six minutes past eleven o'clock.