Sitting of 5 March 1963

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
PRIVATE BUSINESS
  SHELL CHEMICALS DISTRIBUTING COMPANY OF EGYPT BILL
  Read the Third time and passed.
  BP REFINERY (KWINANA) BILL
  As amended, considered; to be read the Third time.
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  PUBLIC BUILDING AND WORKS

    Shipyards (House-Building Components)
    Mrs. Butlerasked the Minister of Public Building and Works what has been the result of his inquiry into the possibility of using spare capacity in shipyards for the manufacture of house-building components and whether he will make a statement.
    Mr. Millanasked the Minister of Public Building and Works if he will now make a statement on industrialised building, particularly in reference to the use of shipyard facilities in this respect.
    Mr. Rossasked the Minister of Public Building and Works what progress has been made in the study of such building techniques as will permit the use of unused shipbuilding capacity for industrial building purposes.
    Mr. Lawsonasked the Minister of Public Building and Works whether he is yet able to make a statement on the results of his inquiry into the possible use of surplus shipbuilding capacity for prefabricated industrial building.
    Mr. Willeyasked the Minister of Public Building and Works whether he will make a further statement on the use of shipyards for work alternative to shipbuilding.
    The Minister of Public Building and Works (Mr. Geoffrey Rippon): The team which I appointed on 2nd January this year presented its Report to me last Thursday. I am urgently considering the Report and will make a statement shortly.
    Mrs. Butler: As a scheme of this kind could both help to reduce the cost and speed up the erection of houses and other buildings while at the same time making a valuable contribution to employment in the North-East and Clydeside, may I ask the Minister whether the Report indicates which types of building components are suitable for this type of production, and has he any idea whether a pilot scheme will be started and where?
    Mr. Rippon: I appreciate the potentialities, and that is why the inquiry was set up. I do not think that it would be appropriate for me to try to summarise or deal with parts of the Report until I have had an opportunity to consider it in full.
    Mr. Millan: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the Report will be published, and whether he has had specific proposals from shipbuilders to help in the development of this kind of work?
    Mr. Rippon: I shall certainly consider publication. There are, of course, parts of the Report which include confidential information supplied from shipyards. The inquiry was limited to shipyards in two areas, in the North-East and Scotland. It is, of course, of general application and undoubtedly great interest has been shown in the work of the team.
    Mr. Ross: Is the Minister aware that we consider this a useful and desirable piece of diversification in these areas? Can he tell us whether he has had any discussion with the Scottish Office and the development unit as to the possibility of its application in respect of Scottish building needs?
    Mr. Rippon: I certainly have in mind that there will be consultations with other

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    Departments and interests concerned now that the Report is available. It is not, of course, a question of just the potentialities of the scheme. We have to consider such matters as the design, the assembly and the market.
    Mr. Lawson: In view of the fact that the Scottish steel industry is functioning at only about 50 per cent. of capacity, will the Minister take very closely into account the fact that this might mean the additional use of steel? Has he any knowledge of how the steel industry will be affected?
    Mr. Rippon: I appreciate the difficulties that exist and I want to be as helpful as possible, but what I do not want to do at this stage is to offer too optimistic a forecast of the possibilities.
    Mr. Willey: In view of what the right hon. Gentleman has said, may I ask him to consider extending the nature of this inquiry to consider other forms of alternative work that might be done in shipyards? Will he also consider, in view of the interest in this, publishing as much of the Report as he can?
    Mr. Rippon: So far as wider inquiries are concerned, that is another matter. We have set up this specific inquiry and I shall study it and report to the House as soon as possible. I shall certainly bear in mind the question of publication.

    National Assistance Board Office, Oldham
    Mr. Mappasked the Minister of Public Building and Works when he will transfer the National Assistance Board facilities in Oldham to ground floor premises nearer the centre of the town.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Public Building and Works (Mr. Richard Sharpies): As it now seems unlikely that we can solve this problem quickly by leasing satisfactory accommodation, we are looking for a site for the erection of a new building.
    Mr. Mapp: I appreciate what the Minister says, but will he bear in mind that this office is 29 steps up from the street level, that it is a bus ride out of the middle of Oldham, and that the lavatory accommodation is not what it might be? Does he realise that this is almost
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    intolerable for the Oldham people who have to go there? Will he take advantage of the general redeployment going on in the centre of Oldham so that what he has in mind could be dovetailed into that arrangement?
    Mr. Sharples: We realise the difficulties. It is for that reason that we are trying to find a site as soon as we possibly can. As I am sure the hon. Gentleman appreciates, there are difficulties in finding a suitable site.

    Building, Stockton-on-Tees
    Mr. W. T. Rodgersasked the Minister of Public Building and Works why the building to be erected by his Department on a site in Dovecot Street, Stockton-on-Tees, is not scheduled to be ready for occupation until the end of 1965; and if he will expedite construction in view of unemployment locally in the building industry.
    Mr. Sharples: Construction is due to start early in 1964, and the building is planned for occupation early in 1966. The preparation of drawings and bills of quantities and tendering procedures are estimated to take 12 months, and the construction and furnishing of the building a further 24 months, but I am looking into this to see whether special steps can be taken to bring forward the starting date.
    Mr. Rodgers: Does the hon. Gentleman realise that dependent on the completion of this building is a large number of most important local authority projects? Why is it necessary, using modern building techniques and materials, to spend 24 months constructing a simple building of this sort? Is this to be a model for the future progress of the building industry?
    Mr. Sharples: We are looking at the possibility of speeding up this work, for the very reasons which the hon. Gentleman has put forward.

    London Zoo (New Elephant House)
    Mr. Lubbockasked the Minister of Public Building and Works whether his approval has been sought for the construction of a new elephant house at the London Zoo; and what is the estimated cost of this project.
    Mr. Sharples: My right hon. Friend's approval was sought and given for this scheme. The cost of the project is the responsibility of the Zoological Society of London.
    Mr. Lubbock: Does the hon. Gentleman recall that, in the autumn of 1961, restrictions had to be placed on the building of homes by local authorities because of pressure on scarce building resources? Is he satisfied that the approval he gives to projects of this kind will not interfere with the much more important task of house building?
    Mr. Sharples: Approval in this case is sought from us in our capacity as landlord, and I do not think that the other considerations should rightly enter into it. As I said, the cost is entirely borne by the Zoological Society.
    Mr. P. Williams: Will my hon. Friend give an undertaking that he will not build any permanent establishments for Trojan horses in the body politic?

    State House, Holborn
    Mr. Greyasked the Minister of Public Building and Works what consideration he gave to accommodating Government Departments in the North-East before deciding to lease State House, Holborn, at a rental of £312,000 per annum.
    Mr. Rippon: State House was leased from June, 1961, to meet certain urgent requirements which could not have been met by accommodation in the North-East.
    Mr. Grey: Is it not outrageous that this amount of money should be paid out in rent? Is it not a fact that, after 28 years, when the lease expires, the taxpayer will have coughed up more than £8½ million and not bought a brick? Does the Minister realise that, if he were to make inquiries in the North-East, he would find that a building could have been erected for less than half that amount? Why should the North-East and the rest of the country be bled to death while London gets all it wants? Is it not time that this business was stopped?
    Mr. Rippon: The rent is very reasonable at 24s. a square foot. Question No. 6 raises the matter of building in the North-East.
    Mr. J. T. Price: Has the right hon. Gentleman considered the capital value of this transaction in terms of rent? His Ministry has contracted to pay a rent of £312,000 per annum for a period of 25 or 28 years. Can he tell us what capital profit this represents to the speculative builders who erected the building? How much did the building cost, and what is the capitalised value of the rent on these figures? This is an important matter.
    Mr. Rippon: All I am concerned with is the rent for the period of the lease and whether it is reasonable or not. It is an office building of about 240,000 square feet with net office accommodation of 203,000 square feet, and it will accommodate 1,474 people.
    Mr. C. Pannell: Did the Minister take this decision himself? Was it a high-level decision properly taken after consideration, or was it something done rather down the line for which the Minister took responsibility later? I do not think that people generally will readily accept what the right hon. Gentleman has just told us. He does not seem to have done his homework on the subject.
    Mr. Rippon: I am delighted to cross swords with the hon. Gentleman for the first time on these matters. Of course, I accept full Ministerial responsibility for everything that happens in my Department. In fact, as I said, the decision was taken in June, 1961. I am quite happy to say that I think that it was a reasonable decision. These offices were required for the people who are in them. We have done a great deal to disperse offices from central London, and I hope that we shall do more.
    Mr. Greyasked the Minister of Public Building and Works what would be the estimated cost of a new building in Durham to accommodate the same number of people now to be employed in State House, Holborn.
    Mr. Rippon: About £1½ million, including the cost of a site and on the assumption of a similar use.
    Mr. Grey: Does not that prove the case that a building could have been erected in Durham for less than half the cost to the Ministry of State House?
    Mr. Rippon: I do not so. It is undoubtedly true that buildings and rents in the Provinces are cheaper than in the central area of London, but we never accommodate Staff in central London without considering the possibilities elsewhere. As the hon. Gentleman knows, we are at present designing offices in Durham for about 2,000 staff at a cost of about £2 million.
    Mr. Liptonasked the Minister of Public Building and Works why the cost of occupational services at State House, Holborn, amounts to £260,000, in addition to a 28-year lease at a rental of £312,000 per annum; and what action he is taking to reduce these liabilities.
    Mr. Rippon: We were successful in negotiating a low rent for good accommodation which was urgently needed. In accordance with normal practice the lessee met the initial cost of occupational services as part of the bargain.
    Mr. Lipton: Are not the Government getting very poor value for this rather exorbitant rent of £6,000 a week if, on top of that, they are to spend £260,000 for partitioning, lighting, decoration, provision of canteens, cinema, and goodness knows what else? Are the Government completely crazy?
    Mr. Rippon: It should be borne in mind that many of the staff who have gone into these offices at State House have left accommodation which was at higher rents or at higher market rents. To that extent, this is an advantage to us.
    Mr. Manuel: Cannot the right hon. Gentleman give further information about this? He has been very reticent. Who are the owners of State House? Should not the House of Commons be made aware of the names of those he has been negotiating with?
    Mr. Rippon: This was part of the ordinary process of negotiation. I have given all the information I could possibly give about the size of the offices, about those to be accommodated, and where they have come from.
    Mr. M. Stewart: If the right hon. Gentleman is so satisfied that this is a reasonable rent, why did his predecessor keep saying that it was against public policy even to admit what the rent was?
    Mr. Rippon: I am glad that I have given some further information to the House. It seems perfectly reasonable to give the rent and explain what people have gone into this building. They are people from the D.S.I.R., who have to be in London and near scientific societies, the Ministry of Pensions and National Insurance office for the region, which is rightly in the area, and people from the Patent Office in Holborn.
    Mr. Gresham Cooke: If a commercial company considers it reasonable to pay rents of 20s. to 30s. per square foot per annum for offices in central London, is not a rent of 24s. per square foot very reasonable?
    Mr. K. Robinson: is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, by taking this lease of accommodation which has been standing vacant for nearly two years, the Government got the developers out of a jam? Is he aware that if they had left the developers in a jam this would have had a healthy effect on office building in central London to the benefit of London as a whole?
    Mr. Rippon: My concern was with the requirements of the Government for offices.
    Mr. M. Stewart: Does the right hon. Gentleman appreciate that it was not he who told us what the rent was? We got it out of the newspapers.
    Mr. Lipton: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In view of the completely unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I shall seek to raise this matter on the Adjournment at the earliest possible moment.

    House of Commons (Members' Tea Room)
    Mrs. Slaterasked the Minister of Public Building and Works when he proposes to provide for the improvements in the servery in the Members' Tea Room.
    Mr. Sharples: We hope to carry out a number of improvements during the Summer Recess this year, including those mentioned in reply to the hon. Lady's Question to the Chairman of the Kitchen Committee on 17th December, 1962.
    Mrs. Slater: Does not the hon. Gentleman realise that this matter has been dragging on for the last two and a half

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    years and that we have had promises of this kind before? Does he appreciate that for Members of the House to have to go on waiting for improvements in this dilapidated, untidy and unfit kitchen is, particularly in a building of this kind, just not good enough? Cannot he do something before the long recess?
    Mr. Sharples: I realise that the position is unsatisfactory. This is why I am anxious to get the work done just as soon as we can. However, it is not possible to do it earlier because the fitting of a waste disposal unit, which is one of the main things to be done on the site, is a major operation which can be carried out only during the long recess in the summer.

    Industrial Monuments (Survey)
    Dr. Strossasked the Minister of Public Building and Works whether he is aware of the need to preserve certain industrial monuments; and whether he will make a statement with particular reference to the listing of these monuments in Great Britain.
    Sir H. Kerrasked the Minister of Public Building and Works whether he is aware that a great number of industrial works of the greatest interest still survive in this country; and whether he will consider making a list of these monuments.
    Mr. Albuasked the Minister of Public Building and Works whether, in view of the growing interest in the history of science and technology, he will take steps to encourage research into the history of the many industrial monuments which exist in this country.
    Mr. Boydenasked the Minister of Public Building and Works if he has received the Report of the Council of British Archaeology on the preservation of industrial monuments in Staffordshire; and what plans he has now made for the more effective preservation of industrial and scientific monuments in England.
    Mr. Rippon: My Ministry and the Council for British Archaeology have now agreed to co-operate in a nation-wide survey of industrial monuments, which I hope will start within two months. I am grateful for the help of the Council for British Archaeology and I hope that
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    industry will also co-operate. The pilot survey in Staffordshire will take several years to complete, but the work so far done has already provided useful guidance on this problem.
    Dr. Stross: Does the Minister realise that that Answer is quite satisfactory and that his recognition of the work done for so many years by the Council of British Archaeology is much welcomed?
    Mr. Rippon: I am grateful for that assurance.
    Sir H. Kerr: I welcome my right hon. Friend's statement, but can he say whether these industrial monuments are considered of sufficient importance to be eligible for grant from the Historic Buildings Council?
    Mr. Rippon: In certain circumstances this may be possible, but that, of course, is not the purpose of the survey.
    Mr. Albu: In view of the time which the survey will take, will the Minister take any steps in the meantime to preserve monuments which might be lost, for instance, the first iron bridge in the world, the Coolbrookdale Bridge, the Pontcysyllte aqueduct, and the Abbeydale Works at Sheffield, which still have some of the original tilt hammers in them?
    Mr. Rippon: I am perfectly prepared, while the survey is taking place, to use the powers I have under the Ancient Monuments Act to preserve worthy structures of this kind.
    Mr. Boyden: What type and what numbers of staff has the right hon. Gentleman available for this project?
    Mr. Rippon: I propose to appoint one expert to help in what will be a voluntary survey carried out under the auspices of the Council of British Archaeology by its many constituent organisations.

    Courts, Scotland (Criminal Cases)
    Mr. Stodartasked the Minister of Public Building and Works if he proposes to increase the number of courts in Scotland in which criminal cases may be heard.
    Mr. Sharples: To relieve the present shortage of court accommodation in

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    Parliament House, Edinburgh, we are examining in consultation with the Scottish Office the possibility of providing a further two courts in this building. Responsibility for the provision of Sheriff Court Houses rests with local Court House Commissioners.
    Mr. Stodart: Since legal aid is likely before long to become available in Scotland in criminal cases, may I ask my hon. Friend to ensure that the implementation of this is not held up by the shortage of court accommodation? Can he say whether, apart from sheriff court accommodation, he is considering whether further accommodation is needed anywhere else other than in Parliament House, Edinburgh—for example, in the High Court in Glasgow?
    Mr. Sharples: We are considering first and foremost the possibilities of these two courts in Edinburgh. I think that a question about legal aid would be properly put down to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland.
    Mr. Hannan: Is the hon. Gentleman aware of the inordinate delay which takes place in the Glasgow courts? Between the date of the alleged offence and the pleading diet an interval of four months elapses, and between the pleading diet and the charge being dealt with another four months elapse. Will the hon. Gentleman consider this question not only in respect of Edinburgh but in respect of Glasgow and Aberdeen from where solicitors and witnesses go to Edinburgh instead of to courts at the seat of the incident?
    Mr. Sharples: In so far as my right hon. Friend has responsibility in the matter, I will certainly look at that point.

    Adverse Weather Conditions (House-building Work)
    Mr. Boydenasked the Minister of Public Building and Works what devices the Building Research Station has evolved to enable work on house building to proceed in adverse weather conditions; and what steps he is taking to see that these new techniques are more widely adopted.
    Mr. Sharples: Over the past few years the Building Research Station has carried out research on ways of ensuring continuity of building work in winter or
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    bad weather, and has published the results both in its own publications and in building trade journals.
    My own Department has issued advisory leaflets on the technique of bricklaying and concreting in cold weather, and these are obtainable from the Stationery Office. I am sending copies to the hon. Gentleman.
    More research is needed, and our Directorate General of Research and Development will be co-ordinating further work on these problems.
    Mr. Boyden: Can the Parliamentary Secretary say why the propaganda has been so unsuccessful and why building goes on in Canada and Russia, for example, through much harder winters than we have? Will he consider giving financial incentives to the adaptation of measures which can be used?
    Mr. Sharples: I think that that raises wider issues than are raised in the Question. As I have said, we recognise that more research into this problem is needed, and we propose, through our Director-General of Research and Development, to give help in that respect.
    Mr. Dugdale: The hon. Gentleman says that wider research is needed, but surely one must know why it is that this can be done in winter in other countries whereas the moment the slightest quantity of moisture is precipitated here all outside building operations stop.
    Mr. Sharples: We need further information about this matter. After all, conditions in different countries vary. What may be an economic proposition in a country like Canada may not be an economic proposition here.

    Service Departments (Works Services)
    Mr. Wingfield Digbyasked the Minister of Public Building and Works, in view of the amalgamation of the Works Services of the three Service Departments under him, how many civil engineers in his Department are experienced in construction of docks and piers and how many have experience as divers.
    Mr. Rippon: As from 1st April next there will be in my Ministry 100 civil engineers experienced in construction of docks and piers, of whom 40 are trained as divers and are below the maximum age Limit of 45 for these duties.
    Mr. Digby: In view of the announcement yesterday about integration between the three Armed Services, does not this arrangement seem rather illogical? What can my right hon. Friend offer to offset the inter-departmental delays which there are bound to be? No doubt the people whom he mentioned have been merely drafted wholesale from the Works Department of the Admiralty.
    Mr. Rippon: I should have said that our earlier announcements made yesterday's announcement seem logical. This is part of a process of integration which will be very valuable.
    Mr. Shinwell: In view of the debate which we shall have later today, can the right hon. Gentleman say how many staff he will employ and whether any, and if so how many, military personnel will he seconded from the Service Departments? Will he be responsible for undertaking work for the Service Departments overseas?
    Mr. Rippon: The number of staff in my Ministry will rise as a result of these changes from 23,300 to 61,000, or thereabouts. I will be responsible for the building and maintenance work of the Service Departments overseas, and the figure for this is given in the Defence estimates.
    Mr. Shinwell: Is the Minister in possession of an organisation to undertake the many requirements of the Service Departments overseas?
    Mr. Rippon: Yes, Sir.

    Industrialised Building Techniques
    Mr. Willisasked the Minister of Public Building and Works whether he is yet in a position to make a statement on his inquiries into industrial building techniques.
    Mr. Rippon: I have established a Directorate General of Research and Development. Its task is to help me further the development and application of industrialised building techniques on a sound technical and economic basis. I have recently issued the first of a series of technical statements on dimensional co-ordination for industrialised building, and will issue further statements in the course of the year.
    Mr. Willis: Can the Minister give any indication as to when he expects any results from this, because quite a lot of people require jobs and homes? Surely it is in the best interests of all to bring these two needs together as quickly as possible.
    Mr. Rippon: I appreciate the need for speed. The first result is this statement on dimensional co-ordination which provides an agreed basis for dimensional co-ordination in the public sector for houses, hospitals, schools and offices. Further statements will follow. I hope that this will assist very much in the design of buildings and the manufacture of components.

    New Works Organisation
    Mr. Russellasked the Minister of Public Building and Works, in view of the fact that the head of the new works organisation, the chief architect and the chief engineer are to be those who occupied similar positions in the old Ministry of Works, to what extent new methods of working as distinct from those traditional in his Department are to be employed.
    Mr. Rippon0: My new Directorate-General of Works will adopt the best practices and methods of the four existing organisations which are being integrated. It will also have the benefit of the pioneering work of the newly formed Directorate-General of Research and Development.
    Mr. Russell: While thanking my right hon. Friend for that reply, may I ask him whether he is aware that there is still a great deal of anxiety among the professional works staff of the three Service Departments and that this looks like a take-over by his Department rather than a merger? Can he take some more steps to show that he will use the best resources from all four Works Departments?
    Mr. Rippon: I have announced the reconstitution of the Directorate-General of Works as well as the constitution of the new Directorate-General of Research and Development. Three of the appointments have gone to people in my Ministry. The Director-General of Works comes from the Admiralty. The Chief Civil Engineer will come from the Air Ministry. A new Deputy Secretary has

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    been appointed from the Ministry of Education, and there is an Under-Secretary from the Scottish Office, while one of the top appointments has gone to the D.S.I.R. We are taking steps to ensure that we get the cream of the Departments working on these matters.
    Mr. Snow: In the anxiety to retain the so-called cream, is it not a fact that some of the experience and skill of the old engineers of the Ministry of Works is being jeopardised?
    Mr. Rippon: I do not think so. There will be great value found in the experience of the Ministry of Works which built such projects as Spadeadam, the Bedford wind tunnel and the Jodrell radio telescope. There is also the experience of the engineers and others in the Service Departments.
    Mr. C. Pannell: Bearing in mind that much of this experience is traditional in Government Departments, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman what arrangements he has in a merger like this? Are there wider consultative arrangements with outside industry and others, or is this just a closed enclave?
    Mr. Rippon: It is perfectly possible for us to do as we have done with the inquiry on the shipyards—to bring in outside people to work together with the people in the Civil Service to get the best possible solution. I do not exclude any possibilities, but a merger of this kind is a complicated operation, and it is taking some time. I think that the House will have every reason to be fully satisfied with the results.
    Mr. P. Williams: Will my right hon. Friend recognise that he appears, at any rate to me, to have announced a fairly dramatic change of policy in answer to a supplementary question and that the House would be better served by a full statement on this, or at least by a White Paper?
    Mr. Rippon: I have not announced anything new. There has been a series of announcements from Admiralty House since I was appointed explaining the transfer of responsibilities and the nature of the reorganisation taking place.

    Public Works Programmes
    Mr. Swinglerasked the Minister of Public Building and Works, in view of the high rate of unemployment in many parts of the country, what action is being taken by his Department to expand programmes of public works.
    Mr. Rippon: As the Ministry primarily concerned with the capacity of the construction industries, we have been associated with the policy already announced by the Government of increasing building programmes generally and in areas of high unemployment. These increases consist primarily of £70 million of comparatively quick-moving investment which, as far as practicable, has been steered to areas of unemployment. Public authorities in areas of high general unemployment have also been authorised to put in hand schemes costing up to £15,000 amounting to an additional £6 million of work which can be carried out quickly. In concert with other Ministries, we have taken action where appropriate to bring forward our own building projects.
    Mr. Swingler: In view of the direct responsibility his Department has, can the right hon. Gentleman say, in the light of the last figure of unemployment given to this House, how many jobs his Department has actually succeeded in creating in the areas of high unemployment faced with this challenge?
    Mr. Rippon: We may be able to do that statistical exercise in due course. We have tried to select projects which offer the maximum potentialities for providing employment in particular areas according to the nature of the unemployment that exists.
    Dame Irene Ward: While fully supporting the ideas behind my right hon. Friend's announcement, I am slightly tired of generalities. Could he please put in the OFFICIAL REPORT a statement showing in which areas of high unemployment all these projects lie in order that we may judge whether his plan is a success or not?
    Mr. Rippon: I should have thought that £76 million is a nice bit of generality by any standard. I will see how far it is possible to produce a list of projects and circulate it in some appropriate way.
    Mr. Millan: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that local authorities would be more able to carry out these works for relieving unemployment if the Government grants were more generous? Will he consult his right hon. Friends about that?
    Mr. Rippon: I take the point and will consult as far as possible.

    Houses of Parliament (Car Parking Facilities)
    Mr. Swinglerasked the Minister of Public Building and Works what plans he has to provide adequate parking facilities for the cars of workers in, and visitors to, the Houses of Parliament.
    Mr. Sharples: The authorities of the Palace of Westminster allocate space available for parking within the precincts of the Palace. We shall certainly take whatever opportunity the new Bridge Street development may provide to increase parking space for the Palace of Westminster.
    Mr. Swingler: Has not the Department a responsibility in this matter? Is not the hon. Gentleman aware that visitors who come here quite frequently find that they are compelled to go miles away to park their cars and then are amazed, once they come inside the Palace of Westminster, to find large areas of unused space which, if it were intelligently allocated, could be used for car parking facilities? Will his Department examine this problem?
    Mr. Sharples: As I have said, the responsibility for the allocation of space within the precincts of the House is a matter for the authorities of the House. There is total space within the precincts as a whole for some 337 cars. I think it right that priority should be given to hon. Members and to officials who have to work here.
    Mr. C. Pannell: Is not the hon. Gentleman aware of how unsatisfactory this Position is? Is he aware that it is no use speaking about the "authorities of the House"? The authorities of the House ought to be subordinate to the House itself and its needs, which are not catered for at all. This concerns not only Members of Parliament and visitors.
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    The Press also has a great deal of difficulty with car parking. Will the hon. Gentleman do something about it?
    Mr. Sharples: I should be getting beyond the scope of the Question if I were to enter into a debate about the responsibilities of the authorities of the House.
    Mr. Bellenger: Have Members of Parliament priority to park their cars when they come here?
    Mr. Sharples: Yes, Sir. The authorities of the House give first priority, as I understand it, to hon. Members and, secondly, to those officials who have to come here in order to work. I understand that members of the general public are allowed to park in Old Palace Yard if space is available.

    Royal Parks (Catering Arrangements)
    Mr. F. Harrisasked the Minister of Public Building and Works, what progress he has made with plans for improving catering arrangements in the Royal Parks.
    Mr. Rippon: We are now negotiating new contracts for catering in the Royal Parks to run from next year. My plans include improvements in existing restaurant buildings and the provision of two completely new restaurants in the central Parks in substitution for two existing buildings.
    Mr. Harris: Is my right hon. Friend aware that that Answer will give much pleasure to members of the public who use the Royal Parks?
    Mr. Gresham Cooke: Can my right hon. Friend say whether Hampton Court will be included?
    Mr. Rippon: Apart from the central Parks, I am not planning any changes in any of the Royal Parks, except Regent's Park and Hampton Court.

    Tower of London (Son et Lumière)
    Mr. Gresham Cookeasked the Minister of Public Building and Works what proposals he has under consideration for Son et Lumièere in London during the summer of 1963.
    Mr. Rippon: With the agreement of the Constable of The Tower, I have

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    approved proposals for a programme of Son et Lumière at the Tower of London this summer. The audience will watch from boats moored in the River Thames. The entertainment will be sponsored by the London Tourist Board and will be put on from the end of May to September.
    Mr. Gresham Cooke: While some of my constituents may be disappointed that Hampton Court has not been selected, is my right hon. Friend aware that this Son et Lumière programme will give a great deal of pleasure to Londoners? Can he say how many people will be able to see these events and bow much the cost will be?
    Mr. Rippon: There will be room for about 1,000 in boats which will set off from Westminster pier and then be moored opposite the Tower of London. The cost of the boat trip and the Son et Lumière will be £1.
    Mr. Mackie: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this project will, I hope, make life brighter under the Conservatives? Is he further aware that Atlas Lighting Ltd., which has had the contract for the project since 1958, has been refused it this year? Is he aware that his predecessor said in 1958:
    "The show will he presented on behalf of my Department by Atlas Lighting Ltd. · who have generously undertaken to see that there is no risk to public funds."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 17th June, 1958; Vol. 589, C. 62.]
    Is he aware that the firm has lost between £20,000 and £30,000 on this project? Is it therefore not a shame that it has not got this contract? [HON. MEMBERS: "Speech."] I am sorry, Mr. Speaker. Is the right hon. Gentleman further aware that this contract has been given to a Dutch firm and—what is more important still—that the Atlas Company is in my constituency?
    Mr. Rippon: This aspect of the contract was put out to tender in the usual way, and I gather that the successful company is a British company, although it may have Dutch associations as well.
    Mr. Grey: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this announcement was made in the Press last week? Does he think it fair that we as Members of the House of Commons should get a statement after a Press announcement? Is it fair that a firm which has done 95 per cent. of the work should be replaced by a Dutch firm?
    Mr. Rippon: One should be very careful about suggesting that the firm which has got the contract in the ordinary way does not deserve it. A number of people have been concerned in planning this project and it apparently aroused some interest in the Press as soon as the Question was put down.

    Houses and Flats (Factory-made Components)
    Mr. Gresham Cookeasked the Minister of Public Building and Works what further research is now being carried out into houses and flats produced in factories or built-up from factory-made components.
    Mr. Rippon: Apart from the work that is being undertaken by the construction industry itself, research and development studies are being carried out by the Ministry of Housing and Local Government, the Building Research Station of the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research, and within my own Ministry. Prototypes of the more promising new systems developed abroad and in this country are in preparation or under construction.
    Mr. Gresham Cooke: Will my right hon. Friend make it clear whether his Department is actually to do any research, or simply to co-ordinate the efforts of other Departments and research institutes?
    Mr. Rippon: My responsibility is for co-ordinating all building research and development work throughout the Government service. My Department will carry out its own projects, but we will have a machine whereby the results as a whole can be looked at. My Directorate-General of Research and Development will carry out some research of its own while co-ordinating and extending the activities of existing groups, and it will encourage and develop generally the use of new and rapid methods of construction.
    Mr. Manuel: Did the Minister say whether his researches are being extended into the use of stocks of existing building resources? Is it his intention to marry those resources to the industrial techniques which he hopes to get from the use of shipyards and so on, and to see that development is not so one-sided that it causes unemployment in the more traditional industries?
    Mr. Rippon: I appreciate that point. We want to make full use of traditional resources and we shall do so. We hope that the new methods will provide a bonus.

  WIRELESS AND TELEVISION

    Licences (Old-age Pensioners)
    Mr. Wainwrightasked the Postmaster-General if, in view of the financial hardship experienced by old-age pensioners in finding, in one payment, the sum of £4 for their television licence, he will consider making arrangements for those pensioners who so desire to have 10s. per week deducted from their pensions over a continuous period of eight weeks.
    The Postmaster-General (Mr. Reginald Bevins): I have discussed this suggestion with my right hon. Friend the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance, who is opposed to the setting up of special machinery for making deductions from pensions. National Savings facilities, however, are readily available at Post Offices and elsewhere for those who wish to save towards the payment for television licences.
    Mr. Wainwright: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that that Answer will be received with great disappointment by many pensioners? Is he not aware that some rental firms allow pensioners to pay for their television sets weekly, but that pensioners cannot afford to pay the licence fee in one lump sum? If he cannot convince his right hon. Friend that these facilities should be given, will he contact some of the radio rental firms to see if they will agree to make the collection and to pass on the sum involved to his Department?
    Mr. Bevins: I do not think that that latter suggestion is practicable. The difficulty is that where there is a system of payment by instalments, either as a deduction from pension or by instalments direct to the Post Office, it would have to be applied not only to retirement pensioners, but to the disabled, the blind, widows and so on, and it would result in an enormous increase in the cost of collection which would affect the level of the licence fee.
    Mr. W. R. Williams: Would it not be a better alternative to my hon. Friend's
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    suggestion for the right hon. Gentleman and the Chancellor of the Exchequer once again sympathetically to examine the possibility of reducing the licence fees for old-age pensioners?
    Mr. Bevins: That has been considered many times. If the fee for retirement pensioners and old people generally were reduced, that would undoubtedly lead to a substantial increase in the fee for the rest of the viewing public.
    Mr. W. R. Williams: What leads the right hon. Gentleman to that conclusion? To many of us it does not appear necessarily to follow.
    Mr. Bevins: Clearly, if the licence fee for many millions of elderly people were to be reduced, the cost falling on the rest of the population would inevitably have to be increased.

    INDUSTRY AND EMPLOYMENT, SCOTLAND
    Mr. Jayasked the Prime Minister what action Her Majesty's Government proposes to take to develop industry and employment in Scotland, following his recent discussion with the Scottish Council for Development and Industry.
    The Prime Minister (Mr. Harold Macmillan): I am still considering the many far-reaching suggestions made to me by the Scottish Council at our recent meeting.
    Mr. Jay: As this was a very important deputation representing all sections of opinion in Scotland, are we not soon to have some positive results announced by the Prime Minister?
    The Prime Minister: The Scottish Council made it clear to me that it was primarily concerned with solutions of the longer-term problems, which we are studying and about which statements will be made in due course. In the shorter term, much has already been done—for instance, the Tay Bridge, £4½ million; minor works brought forward, £2 million; the gas turbine electricity station at Dunfermline, £1¾ million; MacBrayne ferry ships, £1¼ million; extension of the teacher training colleges. This is a start. Other schemes are being urgently examined.
    Mr. Ross: Is the Prime Minister aware that the Patronage Secretary told an audience in Glasgow on Saturday that he had in his pocket a list of specific projects?
    Mr. Manuel: It must have been his waistcoat pocket.
    Mr. Ross: Are we to understand that the jobs are now out of the pipeline and in the Patronage Secretary's pocket? Will the Prime Minister tell his right hon. Friend that the people of Scotland are entitled to know whether he will empty his pockets right away?
    The Prime Minister: I do not think that there is any difficulty about the many proposals which have been made. Some I have already announced—I have given the list—and others will be announced as soon the they are finally agreed.
    Mr. Grimond: Is the Prime Minister aware that there will be a great deal to he done after this winter in Scotland, for instance, in connection with roads, and that there is a great housing problem in Scotland and many other public works which could usefully be undertaken, but that if they are to be undertaken, it must be during the summer, so that the plans and finance available for them must be announced in the very near future?
    The Prime Minister: That was the purpose of bringing forward all these minor works which will no doubt be examined and announced.

    NORTH-EAST
    Mr. Jayasked the Prime Minister whether Her Majesty's Government have now taken decisions on the recommendation of the Lord President of the Council for expanding employment on the North-East Coast.
    Mr. Milneasked the Prime Minister whether he will make a statement on the decisions of Her Majesty's Government following the visits paid by the Lord President of the Council to the North-East; and what new proposals he has for reducing the rising unemployment in the region.
    Mr. Bottomleyasked the Prime Minister if he will arrange for the full
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    report of the Lord President of the Council on his visit to the North-East to be published.
    Mr. Shinwellasked the Prime Minister what decisions Her Majesty's Government have taken on the recommendations from the Lord President of the Council to alleviate the unemployment position in the North-East; and whether any will require legislation.
    The Prime Minister: My noble Friend's recommendations are being examined urgently. It would not be appropriate to publish his report on his recent visit to the North-East or to disclose the nature of any advice or recommendations made by individual members of the Government to their colleagues.
    A number of decisions to alleviate unemployment in the North-East have already been announced and further decisions will be announced shortly. All these measures are, of course, being reinforced by steps taken to strengthen the national economy generally.
    Mr. Jay: As it is now two months since the noble Lord was appointed to the job and as this is not exactly a new problem, is it not rather disappointing that so far we have apparently not had any action? Can we expect a further statement from the Prime Minister?
    The Prime Minister: Decisions already announced include the programme of seven advanced factories in the region, an increase of £1,400,000 in the region's road investment programme, the speedy putting in hand of additional construction schemes by local authorities, of £140,000; hospital boards, £400,000; Board of Trade, £364,000 and the Ministry of Public Works and Building, £35,000. In addition, there are the placing of the contract for the third Admiralty tanker and the invitation to tender for the second fleet replenishment ship and also, as was asked, the designation of Tees-side as a development district.
    Mr. Milne: Is the Prime Minister aware that every time he answers Questions of this nature in that way he increases the suspicions of the North-East about the Government's intentions? Is he also aware that Lord Hailsham said that he would announce his proposals at at public meeting in the North-East but

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    that we now find that he intends to do so at a 30s.-a-head luncheon? Is this the best way of indicating to the people of the North-East that the Government mean business in this matter?
    The Prime Minister: I think that the people on the North-East Coast will receive a great degree of satisfaction both from what has been announced and what will be decided.
    Mr. Bottomley: Why cannot the report be published? Would not the Prime Minister agree that if the report were published local authorities, trade unions, and industrialists would know what was required of them and be better able to assist?
    The Prime Minister: When my noble Friend came back he made a number of proposals to his colleagues, all of which are being examined. Some will be acceptable, and some will have to be further worked on, and it would be impossible to carry on government if recommendations of this kind from one colleague to the rest of the Cabinet were to be made public.
    Mr. Shinwell: Would the right hon. Gentleman say whether any one of the projects he has mentioned in his reply to my right hon. Friend have been started? If not, when do the Government intend to commence operations?
    The Prime Minister: They are being started, or authorised by local authorities to be started. They have to make their plans and operate on the grants given to them. Finally, the designation of Tees-side as a devolpment district was asked for, and has been made.
    Mr. R. W. Elliot: Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is general appreciation in the north-east of England of the way in which the Lord President of the Council has grasped both the long-term and short-term problems of the area? Is my right hon. Friend further aware that the only critics of the appointment in the North-East are Labour Members of Parliament and a public relations firm appointed by the Labour Party to present Labour Party policy?
    The Prime Minister: I am certain that my hon. Friend is right, that my noble Friend's appointment and the work he
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    has already done have been well received by the people on the North-East Coast.
    Mr. G. Brown: So that we may get the full value of the Prime Minister's earlier answer, would he say, from the list of works which he read out, how many of the decisions were in fact before the visit of the Lord President to the North-East Coast, and which, if any, have arisen from it?
    The Prime Minister: I would ask for notice to go into the special points, but I was asked to give the broad policy which is being pursued. The long-term question must be more carefully examined, and the short-term question must, of course, partly arise from his visit and partly from what happened before it. The last one, the designation of Tees-side, was certainly the result of his visit.

    FORTH ROAD BRIDGE (TOLLS)
    Mr. W. Hamiltonasked the Prime Minister whether he has now reconsidered the question of the imposition of tolls on the Forth Road Bridge; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Gourlayasked the Prime Minister if he has now considered the representations made to him regarding the elimination of tolls on the Forth Road Bridge; and whether he will make a statement.
    The Prime Minister: I have noted the representations made by the local authorities concerned with the Forth Bridge to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland last month but I have nothing to add to the reply which I gave to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Clackmannan and East Stirlingshire (Mr. Woodburn) on 13th December last.
    Mr. Hamilton: Does the Prime Minister mean by that that the Government refuse to accede to the request of people of all political persuasions that the threat of tolls on this bridge should be withdrawn? Can he tell the House on what principles the Government are seeking to finance this and other projects? Is the Prime Minister aware that this is the only part of the trunk road

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    system from Inverness to London on which one has to pay a toll? The tunnel under the Clyde, certain tunnels under the Thames, the tunnel under Hyde Park and the M.1 are all toll-free. Where is the consistency of Government policy in this matter?
    The Prime Minister: This has been the policy since it was announced in 1955, which is that tolls should be applied to large and costly bridges and tunnels which effect particularly great savings in time and distance.
    Mr. Gourlay: Is the Prime Minister aware that his previous Answer was a complete refusal of the request of the local authorities to remove these toll charges? Is he further aware of the great resentment caused in Scotland arising from the fact that many people in the prosperous South can use the Chiswick flyover, the Hammersmith flyover and the M.1, which cost millions of pounds, without having to pay any tolls, and yet, because a flyover in Scotland happens to cross the River Forth, the Scottish people, who are suffering from economic hardship, will have to pay every time they cross it? When will the Prime Minister mete out real justice to Scotland and eliminate the unfair discrimination that is going on at the present time?
    The Prime Minister: As I said, this is the policy which was announced in 1955, and has gone on ever since.
    Mr. Hamilton: On a point of order. In view of the thoroughly unsatisfactory nature of those Answers, I give notice that I shall raise this matter on the Adjournment a week tonight.

    DISARMAMENT
    Mr. P. Noel-Bakerasked the Prime Minister if he will propose to President Kennedy that, pending the conclusion of a treaty on general and complete disarmament, the Governments of the members of the United Nations should be invited to agree not to increase the level of national expenditure on armaments.
    The Prime Minister: No, Sir. Such an arrangement would be too uncertain and too open to evasion to be, by itself,
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    an acceptable substitute for properly controlled disarmament.
    Mr. Noel-Baker: I do not suggest this as an alternative to controlled disarmament. Does the Prime Minister recall that it worked very well in the League of Nations long ago? Does the right hon. Gentleman recall that two years ago the Commonwealth Prime Ministers said that stopping the arms race was the most urgent and important question before the world; that since then there has been a greater increase in armament expenditure than ever before and that this may explain the atmosphere of intense suspicion and frustration in the Committee of Eighteen?
    The Prime Minister: I agree with the immense importance of trying to conclude a disarmament treaty, but I feel—as I think that the right hon. Gentleman would feel on reflection—that this proposal that Governments should be invited not to increase their levels of expenditure would be impossible either to apply or to control.
    Mr. Noel-Baker: Will the right hon. Gentleman give this matter further consideration as an urgent collateral measure before the disarmament treaty is made?
    The Prime Minister: I have thought a good deal about this and the practical difficulties of controlling expenditure. We cannot even get an inspection system for many of the things for which we are asking. The control of armaments expediture of the countries concerned, and how to prevent evasion, seem to me to be almost insoluble problems.
    Mr. A. Hendersonasked the Prime Minister whether he will establish a disarmament agency responsible to himself for the purpose of engaging in research into the economic problems connected with arms control and disarmament.
    The Prime Minister: No, Sir. I would refer the right hon. and learned Gentleman to the reply given him by my right hon. Friend the then Financial Secretary to the Treasury on 13th March last year.
    Mr. Henderson: But is the Prime Minister aware that in the United States both Government and industry are engaged in these studies? Is it not a

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    fact that there is bound to be some dislocation during the transitional period, even though the Financial Secretary, in the reply to which the right hon. Gentleman referred, stated that the Government did not anticipate meeting any great difficulties in the utilisation of resources following disarmament?
    The Prime Minister: I do not think that this form of study is necessary and I feel that if we could achieve a disarmament agreement between the great Powers the sense of relief and advantage would be so great that world trade would bound forward with a new impetus.
    Sir C. Osborne: As there are over 400,000 engineers in this country alone employed on making armaments, would not it be wise to have some plan for the future to see that these men are not thrown on the scrap heap and become unemployed if, happily, disarmament succeeds? Could not we get to know from America what they are doing along these lines?
    The Prime Minister: A certain amount of study has been given to this, but I was asked about setting up a disarmament agency. I do not think that a special agency is necessary for this purpose.

    SCIENTISTS (EMIGRATION)
    Mr. Fletcherasked the Prime Minister whether he has considered the recent Report of the Royal Society, a copy of which has been sent to him; and if he will take steps to stem the increase in the rate at which outstanding scientists with research degrees are emigrating from this country.
    Mr. Dalyellasked the Prime Minister what study he has made of the Report of the Royal Society, a copy of which has been sent to him, concerned with the emigration of scientists to areas of the world which can offer better facilities; and what action he is taking to slow down this rate of emigration.
    The Prime Minister: The Government are considering this Report. The estimates which it contains are of gross emigration of scientists holding post-graduate qualifications. No estimate could be made of immigration of high-quality scientists to this country, but this has for many
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    years been of great benefit to British science.
    We are rapidly increasing our expenditure on civil scientific research, and intend to continue to do so.
    Mr. Fletcher: Does the Prime Minister realise that the emigration, on an increasing scale, of the cream of our highly educated scientists not only has very serious economic consequences but also indicates a glaring lack of confidence in the Prime Minister's ability to guide the future of this country?
    The Prime Minister: There are two points to make on that supplementary question. First, the emigration is not on an increasing scale; the proportion has fallen since 1947. Secondly, about half the emigration is to the Commonwealth. This is one of the great benefits that we are able to give the Commonwealth.
    Mr. Dalyell: Does not the Prime Minister agree that immigration into this country took place at a time in the 1930s when we were able to provide better facilities than any other country in Europe? Will not he inject a special urgency into the provision of good facilities?
    The Prime Minister: I agree that in the pre-war years there were special pressures which brought scientists here from various countries, for other reasons. But it is remarkable that of all the Fellows of the Royal Society 10 per cent. are persons who were born and educated outside the United Kingdom.
    Mr. Dudley Williams: Does not my right hon. Friend think—[HON. MEMBERS: "No."] Is my right hon. Friend aware of the fact that this shows how wise the Government were in the last Budget to raise the Surtax level from £2,000 to £5,000 a year?
    The Prime Minister: I think that that was a very wise decision, and I hope that it will have some good effect upon energy and effort in all directions.
    Dr. Bray: In view of the fact that the production of scientists in the United States is about 200 times greater than the number of scientists emigrating from this country to the United States, does not the

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    Prime Minister think that the analysis made by the Minister for Science in another place the other day was somewhat ridiculous? Does he think that to slander the American educational system in this way really improves technical cooperation between men?
    The Prime Minister: Although my noble Friend sometimes says things which are controversial, he never says anything which is ridiculous.

M. GEORGES BIDAULT
Miss Bacon(by Private Notice) asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if M. Georges Bidault is at present in this country, and in view of the fact that a warrant has been issued in France for his arrest, what steps the Secretary of State now proposes to take.
The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Henry Brooke): I have no ground for thinking that M. Bidault is now in this country. Police inquiries into the possibility of his presence here have been in progress for some time and are still proceeding, but so far without result. My permission for him to enter the country was neither sought nor granted. Since there is no record in recent months of his having been admitted in the regular manner, it is evident that he arrived illegally.
Miss Bacon: I am in favour of political asylum being given to genuine political refugees, but is it not really extraordinary that the Home Secretary should give us this reply this afternoon, stating that his immigration officials were unaware that M. Bidault had entered this country? Further, did the right hon. Gentleman really not know that he had entered? Is there no co-ordination between Government Departments? Has there been no co-ordination between the Foreign Office and the Home Office in this matter? I am not criticising the B.B.C. for its initiative in obtaining the scoop that it had last night, but can the Home Secretary deny the rumour which appeared in the newspapers today that the B.B.C. consulted the Government about this broadcast some time ago? If that is so, and if the Foreign Office was consulted, did the Foreign Office get in touch with the Home Office? Can the right hon.
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Gentleman really say that he did not know that M. Bidault was present in this country?
Mr. Speaker: It is not in order to ask a Minister to confirm or deny a rumour in a newspaper's future publication for which he is not responsible. The rest of the question is in order.
Mr. Brooke: In answer to the first part of the hon. Lady's supplementary question, it is not ridiculous for me to give the House an answer which is true in every respect. As to M. Bidault's having slipped through the control, no Home Secretary has ever claimed that the control is 100 per cent. perfect so that no illegal entrant ever gets into this country. What I do claim is that extremely few people do. There has been close co-ordination between the Government Departments affected throughout this matter. As I say, M. Bidault may have been in this country illegally at gone time, but I do not believe that he is here today.
Mr. B. Harrison: Since we have had the privilege of entertaining General de Gaulle here as a refugee from tyranny, will my right hon. Friend not look too closely for M. Bidault?
Mr. Brooke: I asked the police to discover whether there was somebody in this country illegally, and they have been doing their utmost to find him, without success. That is why I draw the deduction that he is no longer here.
Mr. Grimond: Can the right hon. Gentleman clear up one very important point? Is it the case that there is a charge against M. Bidault, or a warrant out for him, in France? If so, when was it issued? Will the right hon. Gentleman confirm that unless there is a charge against M. Bidault there is no reason why he should not come to this country? Secondly, the right hon. Gentleman says that people slip through the net. But the net is an extremely elaborate one and it is very tiresome for ordinary travellers. It appears that important people can slip through but the ordinary people are caught. Is the right hon. Gentleman satisfied that this net serves a useful purpose? If Hitler had turned up at one of our ports or airports, would anyone have noticed?

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Lastly, what representations did the Government receive from the French Government? Have they been asked to take steps against terrorism believed to originate in this country?
Mr. Brooke: I cannot answer for the French Government as to the position of M. Bidault in France. All I can say is that some months ago the French Government furnished us with the names of certain people, including that of M. Bidault, whom they said were engaged in activities against the French State. We took note of that information. As for the matter of slipping into this country, the right hon. Gentleman is really incorrect in suggesting that it is easy for anybody, distinguished or undistinguished, to slip in. As he probably knows from some of his constituents, it is a difficult matter, although it is sometimes achieved.
Sir T. Moore: As M. Bidault was the Prime Minister of France who tried to keep France by our side in 1940, would it not be a reasonable and humane thing to welcome him here?
Mr. Brooke: As he has at no time presented himself to an immigration officer, that question is hypothetical.
Mr. Marsh: Amusing though some of the right hon. Gentleman's replies may be, does not he think that it is a matter of some seriousness that apparently, despite the representations made by the French Government, which were then followed by photographs in the national newspapers, a month or so ago, of M. Bidault in Piccadilly Circus, nobody in the right hon. Gentleman's Department took the matter seriously? Is he now prepared to regard this as a serious matter? How was it that photographs could appear of this gentleman in the national Press and the Government could say a month later that they still did not know whether he had been here or not—even the night after he appeared in a B.B.C. broadcast?
Mr. Brooke: We took this matter very seriously from the start. It is possible
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that the photograph which appeared some weeks ago was a photograph of M. Bidault, but if the hon. Member will look at it he might agree that it could well have been a photograph of somebody else. Nevertheless, we acted on the assumption that it was a photograph of M. Bidault, and we took the appropriate action.
Mr. Longden: Is my right hon. Friend aware that, unlike the hon. Lady the Member for Leeds, South-East (Miss Bacon), many people in this country criticise the B.B.C. for what they consider to be an outrageous broadcast? Is he aware that this man is not merely a political opponent of the head of a friendly State, but an indiscriminate assassin who has murdered many scores of his own people? Will my right hon. Friend do something about bringing him to book?
Mr. Brooke: I cannot repeat too often that the Government are not responsible for programmes put out by the B.B.C. M. Bidault has never been in our hands.
Mr. Fletcher: Does the recent statement by the Home Secretary about the list he received from the French Government mean that, if he received a list of names from the French Government of people they did not want to enter this country, he would automatically prevent them from being allowed to come in?
Mr. Brooke: No, Sir.
Mr. Renton: Although my right hon. Friend is not answerable for what the B.B.C. does or fails to do, can he tell the House whether inquiries show that the B.B.C. knew, or did not know, when it recorded this interview with M. Bidault and broadcast the interview that M. Bidault had landed without permission?
Mr. Brooke: I have no knowledge on that subject.
Hon. Members: Why not?
Several Hon. Members rose—
Mr. Speaker: Order. We cannot debate this matter now. We have a great deal to do.

HASTINGS/BEVERLEY AIRCRAFT (REPLACEMENT)
The Minister of Aviation (Mr. Julian Amery): With your permission, Mr. Speaker, and that of the House, I should like to make a statement on the Hastings/ Beverley replacement.
In view of the high cost involved, the Government gave exhaustive consideration to different ways of meeting this requirement, including the possibility of buying Foreign aircraft and so avoiding development costs. In the end, as my right hon. Friend announced in his Statement on Defence, it was decided to choose a British design. There were two main British contenders—Hawker Siddeley with the Armstrong Whitworth 681 and Short Bros. & Harland with a derivative of the Belfast.
The Government fully recognise the force of the arguments, so ably and forcibly advanced by my hon. Friends from Northern Ireland, for placing the contract for the new aircraft with Shorts in view both of the exceptional gravity of the unemployment situation in Northern Ireland and the natural desire to retain Shorts as a balanced design and production unit.
The Belfast is an excellent aircraft, but it is a turbo-prop design, whereas the AW.681 will be a jet. The airspeed of the modified Belfast would have been 100 knots or so slower than the AW.681. The Belfast would have been considerably bulkier than the AW.681. This would have made it more difficult to handle and park on the unprepared landing strips from which this aircraft will have to operate. It would also have been much more difficult because of its size to give it a V.T.O. capability.
Subject, therefore, to contract, we have decided that the Hastings/Beverley replacement should be based on the AW.681. A project study contract is being negotiated with Hawker Siddeley as the first step. The whole resources of the Hawker Siddeley Aviation Co. will be available to the project, including, of course, the Whitworth Gloster division which has been responsible for the design.
The Government remain deeply concerned about the problems of Northern Ireland, and we are well aware of the important contribution to employment in
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the Belfast area which is made by Short Bros. & Harland Ltd. We have therefore decided to arrange for a substantial share of the production work on this new aircraft to be sub-contracted to Shorts by the Hawker Siddeley Group.
Taken together with the Belfast and Seacat programmes and the sub-contracting work on the V.C.10, this should provide employment for a production labour force not far below the present level of 6,000 or so until about 1970.
Mr. Lee: The whole House will be thankful that at long last a decision has been announced on this important development. Can the right hon. Gentleman say how many 'planes are to be constructed on Government order and what will be the overall cost of that order? Will consideration be given to the break-even point—on which the right hon. Gentleman and I have had discussions on many occasions—in order to ensure that there is not an economic loss when the contract is completed? Can he tell the House what is the time schedule and when the 'plane will be expected to fly? Can the right hon. Gentleman say where the bulk of the work will be done and, because of the very large contracts involved in the subcontracting work, will he take care to see that as much as possible of this work is done in the development districts?
Can the Minister give hon. Members any idea about the percentage of the work to be done by Short Bros.? He has not mentioned the actual amount in the statement. In the concluding part of his statement, the right hon. Gentleman said that the level of employment at Short Bros. will not fall appreciably below the level of 6,000. He will be aware that this is a very low level—indeed, it is the lowest since the war—and that the rate of unemployment is 11 per cent. If the right hon. Gentleman can give the House some idea of the answers to these points, we shall be very grateful.
Mr. Amery: I should like to correct the hon. Gentleman on the question of the level of unemployment at Short Bros. The level of unemployment in Northern Ireland is giving the Government great cause for concern; but over the last twelve months the employment figure at Shorts has actually risen, not

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to a very large extent, but it has risen, I say that to get the facts straight.
We are still in the very early stages regarding this aeroplane. The engine has not been decided on, and I certainly cannot yet say where the bulk of the work will be distributed. There is a great deal of negotiation involved with the firms concerned. We think that the prototype will fly in about 1966.
Sir A. V. Harvey: Is my right hon. Friend aware that unless these aircraft are in service in 1968 there will be a serious deficiency in the aircraft of Transport Command? In view of the grave difficulty facing the Rolls Royce Company, will he also ensure, if possible, that some work can go to that company?
Mr. Amery: I will bear in mind both points made by my hon. Friend.
Mr. Edelman: Is the Minister aware that his decision will be welcomed in Coventry because so much of the subcontracting work will go to Belfast and other areas where the unemployment position is even more serious than in Coventry? Regarding the question asked by the hon. Member for Macclesfield (Sir A. V. Harvey), is not it the case that there will be a considerable gap in time when there will be a lack of transport aircraft? In those circumstances, and in order to relieve immediate unemployment difficulties in Coventry and its associated areas, will the Minister decide now to increase the order for Argosy aircraft so that the production team may be maintained and the labour force not dissipated?
Mr. Amery: No. Our assumption is that there will be no gap in the strength of Transport Command.
Mr. McMaster: Is my right hon. Friend aware of the very great disappointment of Short Bros. and Harland at his decision? Can he ensure that part of the design and drawing work goes to Short Bros. and Harland? Will he also look into the proposal that more Belfasts should be ordered to till a possible gap or meet a strategic need so that research and development may continue, in view of the pledge of the Government to maintain a balanced design and production unit?
Mr. Amery: I am aware of the disappointment which will be caused in Nor-
212
them Ireland by the statement I have made, although I am sure that Ulster will recognise that the decision must turn on the good of the Services and on the best of two very good aircraft. My hon. Friend asks for orders for more Belfasts, but I am not in a position to place them. I cannot order aircraft when there is no firm requirement for them in the Services.
Mr. Lubbock: Will the Minister answer the point put by the hon. Gentleman the Member for Belfast, East (Mr. McMaster), namely, the effect on the position of the design and development teams in Short Bros. and Harland? Is it not true that the reduction in staff which he contemplates, albeit a small one, will be almost entirely in those teams? Secondly, at what date could the modified version of the Belfast have been in service, so that we can compare it with the AW 681?
Mr. Amery: I realise this is a very serious blow above all to the design staff of Short Bros. and Harland, and it may well have serious consequences for them. As to the date, I cannot give it off the cuff, but there would not have been any substantial difference between the two.
Mr. Hocking: Whilst congratulating my right hon. Friend on the difficult decision which he had to take, would he bear in mind the special claims with regard to the Bristol Siddeley engine to be incorporated in this aircraft and, when arranging the details of the contract, would he also bear in mind the special need to keep the skilled teams of shop-floor workers together in Coventry every bit as much as elsewhere in view of the fact that Coventry is the only centre in which all parts of the aircraft industry are represented in this country?
Mr. Amery: I will look into the points raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Coventry, South (Mr. Hocking), but I would rather not try to answer them immediately.
Mr. Wigg: Would the right hon. Gentleman be good enough to tell the House the date on which operational requirement OR 351 was first stated, how long it will now be before he will be able to take a decision about the engine, and how much this little lot is going to cost?
Mr. Amery: It is not customary to give replies to this type of question. If the

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hon. Gentleman the Member for Dudley (Mr. Wigg) will put down a Question on the Order Paper, I will do my best to see whether it can be answered, but I cannot give an answer on the price.
Mrs. McLaughlin: Is the Minister aware that in Short Bros. and Harland this will mean that, despite the large proportion of sub-contract work he has mentioned, there will be a period when there will be a run-down in work. If there is going to be a run-down, as is obvious, in the design team, what will happen when the V.C.10 contract runs down, the new contract is not coming forward in the works, and, as I think the Minister is aware from the charts, there will be a drop in the work? How does he propose to keep 6,000 men employed long-term up to 1970, and can this be done satisfactorily without a design team behind it?
Mr. Amery: Our inquiry suggests that, as far as the production force is concerned, they can be kept in full employment, or at least up to about the 6,000 level, until the end of the decade. I have admitted the very serious design situation.
Mr. Jay: Does the Minister realise that although the AW681 may be a more ideal plane when it is available it is nonetheless more speculative and will be longer before it comes into production? Is he aware that in the view of the management of Short Bros and Harland this means not only the dissipation of the whole design team of 700 but, even allowing for these contracts and the subcontracts, it will not be possible to maintain the labour force? In fact, it means the reduction by 1965 or 1966 to about 2,400 compared with 7,000 now and 11,000 only a few years ago. Does he realise that this is a much more disastrous position for Northern Ireland?
Mr. Amery: I do not think the AW681 can be regarded as speculative in any way, and it will be available in time to replace the Hastings and Beverley which, from the Royal Air Force point of view, is the essential point. The right hon. Gentleman has different figures from mine as to the impact on the labour force. We are in the closest touch with Short Bros and Harland and I should think we are in the best position to evaluate how the load is likely to lie.
Mr. Speaker: We must get on now.

COMMONWEALTH IMMIGRANTS (AMENDMENT)
3.55 p.m.
Mr. Norman Pannell: I beg to move,
That leave be given to bring in a Bill to amend Sections 7 and 12 of the Commonwealth Immigrants Act 1962.
The purpose of my Bill is to strengthen the provisions of the Commonwealth Immigrants Act in regard to deportation. Section 7 of the Act confers on courts the power to recommend deportation in regard to any immigrant from the Commonwealth or the Republic of Ireland who is convicted of an offence punishable with imprisonment. This is a wide discretion, but, of course, the ultimate decision rests with the Home Secretary. The purpose of this Section is largely nullified by subsection (2), which gives immunity from deportation to any Commonwealth or Irish Republican immigrant who has been continuously resident in this country for five years or more. As a result of this subsection, large numbers of immigrants who have been convicted of the most serious crimes are escaping the penalty of deportation.
It might be useful if I gave the House the figures in regard to deportation up to 15th February of this year. Up to that date there had been 515 recommendations made to the Home Secretary, and as evidence of the care and humanity with which my right hon. Friend exercises his powers, he has confirmed only 175 of those recommendations. He has rejected 154 and the rest have either been rejected on appeal or are still awaiting a decision. Of these 175 deportation orders which have been confirmed, 67 have been for larceny, five only for living on immoral earnings, and six only for being in possession of dangerous drugs.
For my part, and I think in common with many other hon. Members, I was most anxious that the part of the Commonwealth Immigrants Bill relating to deportation should cover those guilty of crimes such as living on immoral earnings and peddling in drugs. It is these crimes to which immigrants are particularly and disproportionately prone. In the Metropolitan Police area in 1961 there were 136 convictions for living on immoral earnings. Of those, 76 concerned immigrants from the Commonwealth and

215
from the Republic of Ireland, well over 50 per cent. The situation has not improved since the coming into force of the Commonwealth Immigrants Act. Up to the 19th January, that is, in roughly 6½ months, there were 101 convictions in the Metropolitan Police District for living on immoral earnings and 56 of those were attributable to immigrants from the Commonwealth or the Republic of Ireland. In fact, there were 44 from the Commonwealth and 12 from the Republic of Ireland. Of those 56 immigrants convicted only eight were the subjects of recommendations for deportation, the reason being that 44 of the 56 were immune from deportation because they had been resident in this country for five years or more.
The situation is similar in regard to the offence of being in possession of dangerous drugs. Apparently there is no separate offence of peddling in drugs. They all come under the generic term of "being in possession", and that would include, of course, those immigrants convicted of possessing the drugs for their own use, which is a much less serious offence.
The figures which are significant are that of the 208 convictions which have been made by the courts for being in possession of dangerous drugs, up to 19th November, that is, in the space of four and a half months, no less than 136 were attributable to immigrants from the Commonwealth, the Irish not being concerned in this. Of those 136, 13 only were recommended for deportation. Half of the 136 were immune from deportation because they had been resident in this country for five years or more.
It is clear, therefore, that the Act is not working efficiently in regard to some of the most serious offenders among the immigrants to this country. My Bill proposes to delete from Section 7 of the Commonwealth Immigrants Act subsection (2), which provides for immunity from deportation for those immigrants who have been continuously resident in this country for five years or more. It could be argued that it would be sufficient to extend the qualifying period of residence from five to ten years, but my investigations prove that if that were done more than one-third of those convicted of living on immoral earnings
216
would still escape deportation. In order to make the regulations effective, another amendment is necessary.
Section 12 of the Commonwealth Immigrants Act gives the right to any Commonwealth immigrant, or immigrant from the Republic of Ireland, to obtain registration as a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies under the British Nationality Act, 1948, provided he has been in this country continuously for five years or more. That means that if Section 7 were amended, as I propose, by eliminating the qualifying residence for deportation, they could still escape deportation by registering as United Kingdom citizens because Section 6 of the Act specifically excludes from deportation any immigrant who is registered under the British Nationality Act as a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies. Therefore, these two amendments are essential if the Act is to work efficiently.
It could be argued that it is too soon to amend an Act which came into force only in July last year, but the figures I have given demonstrate that the Act is manifestly working inefficiently and that many who should be deported are escaping that penalty. If this Bill is accepted, two things will be achieved. There will be a very significant reduction in the country generally of these very serious crimes of living on immoral earnings and peddling in drugs, the most common drug being Indian hemp. To these crimes today immigrants are particularly prone, and they cast discredit on their fellow countrymen quite out of proportion to their numbers. The climate of opinion that is built up in this country is largely dependent on the actions of this relatively tiny minority who spoil the case for the others and cast discredit on their fellow countrymen.
The Commonwealth Immigrants Bill had a rough passage through this House. It was very seriously contested, particularly by the Opposition, but I think there was little controversy regarding the deportation provisions. It was regarded generally that some such provision was necessary. The sole purpose of my Bill is to strengthen those provisions and render them effective. I feel confident that even those hon. Members who strongly opposed the Commonwealth Immigrants Bill will not oppose my Bill,

217
for if they do so they will be declaring that it is their desire that we shall retain in this country that small band of evildoers among the immigrants to the detriment of the great majority. I commend the Bill to the House and hope that facilities may be given for it to come speedily into law.
4.4 p.m.
Mr. Michael Foot: I hope that the House will refuse the hon. Member for Liverpool, Kirkdale (Mr. N. Pannell) leave to bring in this Bill. He himself said that the Commonwealth Immigrants Act came into operation only last July. It therefore seems rather premature to introduce a Bill amending the Act now. I should have thought that an overwhelming reason why the hon. Member should not have introduced his Bill at all.
When the Commonwealth Immigrants Bill was before the House there were a number of Amendments moved from this side of the House saying that the Act should be reviewed within a short time. The Government made a proposal that the Measure should be reviewed within a period of something like five years and an Amendment from this side of the House sought to reduce the period to three, or even two, years. I do not think we had the support of the hon. Member for that—in fact, I am sure that he voted against an early review of the Measure—yet he now wants to review a particular Section which he has extracted for treatment.
It would have been much better if the whole Act were to be reviewed at an earlier date by the House of Commons, but to select one part of the Act and say that that part alone should be reviewed is an absurd way of conducting business. We know that the hon. Member has not introduced his Bill for the reasons he stated.
Mr. N. Pannell: What are the reasons then?
Mr. Foot: I will tell the hon. Member. He says that he is concerned about only the small number of immigrants who bring discredit on the others. We know that is not what the hon. Member wants, for we know that he was against all forms of immigration and wanted to stop
218
the lot. As the hon. Member asks what is the truth about his Bill, I am entitled to say that, although he said that he was concerned only about a small number, that is not what he is truly concerned about. We know perfectly well that on this matter he and some of his hon. Friends—not very many of them, I am glad to say—have conducted a vendetta against immigrants to this country and have attempted year after year to smear them. The hon. Member's Bill is a part of the smear campaign, and he knows very well that he will not be able to get this Measure through. Not even the Government will support him and his hon. Friends on this Measure now.
The Government themselves indicated the time at which they thought the whole matter should reconsidered. The hon. Member knows that he will not have the slightest chance of getting it reviewed earlier. All he has done is to use the Ten Minutes Rule procedure to make a further smear against immigrants coming to this country, and he has done so in a most disgraceful way. The figures he has given cannot be rebutted fully as they could have been in the debate when the Commonwealth Immigrants Bill was going through the House. Moreover, we do not know exactly from his Measure the main point of his complaint. Apparently he is complaining about the administration by the Government.
Mr. N. Pannell indicated dissent.
Mr. Foot: The hon. Member shakes his head, but he has not studied his own Bill. He says that the Home Secretary has not carried out the Regulations. That is a criticism of the administration by the Government. If he criticises the administration of the Government, the proper way to deal with that is to bring the question before the House and to ask the Government about the administration measures they are taking, not to demand a general change in the law.
I hope that the House will throw out this Bill. It is all part of the campaign which a few of his hon. Friends and the hon. Member have conducted to spread prejudice against immigrants to this country. What the House should do on the subject is to re-examine the whole Act. Certainly we on this side of the House would be entirely in favour of having a much earlier reconsideration of

219
the whole Act than the Government have provided for. The hon. Member, who voted against an early review, has no right to put this proposition before the House.
Question put, pursuant to Standing Order No, 12 (Motions for leave to bring in Bills and nomination of Select Committees at commencement of Public Business):—
The House divided: Ayes 85, Noes 127.

Division No. 65.]

AYES

[4.8 p.m.

Agnew, sir Peter

Gresham Cooke, R.

Maclay, Rt. Hon. John

Allason, James

Gurden, Harold

Maddan, Martin

Arbuthnot, John

Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N.W.)

Maitland, Sir John

Barlow, Sir John

Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere (Macclesf'd)

Markham, Major Sir Frank

Bellenger, Rt. Hon. F. J.

Harvie Anderson, Miss

Matthews, Gordon (Meriden)

Bossom, Clive

Henderson, John (Cathcart)

Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.

Brewis, John

Hendry, Forbes

Maydon, Lt.-Cmdr. S. L. C.

Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. Sir Walter

Hill, Mrs. Eveline (Wythenshawe)

More, Jasper (Ludlow)

Brown, Alan (Tottenham)

Hirst, Geoffrey

Nabarro, Sir Gerald

Bullus, Wing Commonder Erie

Hocking, Philip N.

Page, Graham (Crosby)

Campbell, Sir David (Belfast, S.)

Hollingworth, John

Page, John (Harrow, West)

Clark, Henry (Antrim, N.)

Hornsby-Smith, Rt. Hon. Dame P.

Pitt, Dame Edith

Cleaver, Leonard

Howard, Hon. G. R. (St. Ives)

Proudfoot, Wilfred

Cole, Norman

Howard, John (Southampton, Test)

Ropner, Col. Sir Leonard

Cooke, Robert

Hulbert, Sir Norman

Smyth, Rt. Hon. Brig. Sir John

Cooper Key, Sir Neill

Hurd, Sir Anthony

Stanley, Hon. Richard

Cordeaux, Lt.-Col. J. K.

Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye)

Summers, Sir Spencer

Coulson, Michael

Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich)

Talbot, John E.

Dance, James

Johnson, Dr. Donald (Carlisle)

Temple, John M.

Digby, Simon Wingfield

Johnson, Eric (Blackley)

Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)

Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. M.

Kaberry, Sir Donald

Thornton-Kemsley, Sir Colin

Doughty, Charles

Kitson, Timothy

Turner, Colin

Duncan, Sir James

Lambton, Viscount

Ward, Dame Irene

Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)

Lancaster, Col. C. G.

Williams, Dudley (Exeter)

Elliott, R. W. (Nwcastle-upon-Tyne, N.)

Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry

Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

Farey-Jones, F. W.

Lilley, F. J. P.

Farr, John

Lindsay, Sir Martin

TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk Central)

Litchfield, Capt. John

Mr. Norman Pannell and

Goodhart, Philip

Longden, Gilbert

Sir Cyril Osborne.

Grant-Ferris, R.

Loveys, Walter H.

NOES

Ainsley, William

Gourlay, Harry

Mendelson, J. J.

Albu, Austen

Grant-Ferris, R.

Millan, Bruce

Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

Grey, Charles

Milne, Edward

Awbery, Stan (Bristol, Central)

Grimond, Rt. Hon. J.

Mitchison, G. R.

Balniel, Lord

Gunter, Ray

Moody, A. S.

Baxter, William (Stirlingshire, W.)

Hamilton, William (West Fife)

Heal, Harold

Bence, Cyril

Harper, Joseph

Nicholson, Sir Godfrey

Bennett, J. (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

Hart, Mrs. Judith

Noel-Baker, Rt. Hn. Philip (Derby, S.)

Biffen, John

Hayman, F. H.

Oram, A. E.

Blackburn, F.

Healey, Denis

Owen, Will

Bottomley, Rt. Hon. A. G.

Hilton, A. V.

Pannell, Charles (Leeds, W.)

Bowles, Frank

Holt, Arthur

Pargiter, G. A.

Braddock, Mrs. E. M.

Hornby, R. P.

Parker, John

Bray, Dr. Jeremy

Hughes, Emrye (S. Ayrshire)

Parkin, B. T.

Brockway, A. Fenner

Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

Pavitt, Laurence

Brown, Rt. Hon. George (Belper)

Hutchison, Michael Clark

Prentice, R. E.

Brown, Thomas (Ince)

Hynd, John (Attercliffe)

Redhead, E. c.

Callaghan, James

Irvine, A. J. (Edge Hill)

Reid, William

Carmichael, Neil

Irving, Sydney (Dartford)

Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

Cliffe, Michael

Jay Rt. Hon. Douglas

Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon)

Craddock, George (Bradford, S.)

Jenkins, Roy (Stechford)

Robertson, John (Paisley)

Critchley, Julian

Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)

Rodgers, W. T. (Stockton)

Cronin, John

Jones, Rt. Hn. A. Creech (Wakefield)

Ross, William

Cullen, Mrs. Alice

Jones, Dan (Burnley)

Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E.

Darling, George

Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham)

Silverman, Julius (Aston)

Davies, Harold (Leek)

Jones, T. W. (Merioneth)

Slater, Mrs. Harriet (Stoke, N.)

Davies, Ifor (Gower)

Kelley, Richard

Small, William

Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)

Key, Rt. Hon. C. W.

Snow, Julian

Deer, George

King, Dr. Horace

Spriggs, Leslie

Dodds, Norman

Ledger, Ron

Stewart, Michael (Fulham)

Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

Lipton, Marcus

Stonehouse, John

Finch, Harold

Lubbock, Eric

Stross, Dr. Barnett (Stoke-on-Trent, C.)

Fisher, Nigel

Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

Swingler, Stephen

Foot, Dingle (Ipswich)

McCann, John

Taverne, D.

Forman, J. C.

McInnes, James

Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield)

Foster, John

McKay, John (Wallsend)

Thomas, George (Cardiff, W.)

Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton)

Mackie, John (Enfield, East)

Timmons, John

Ginsburg, David

McLeavy, Frank

Tomney, Frank

Gooch, E. G.

Manuel, Archie

Wade, Donald

Wainwright, Edwin

Wigg, George

Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A.

Warbey, William

Williams, LI. (Abertillery)

Yates, Victor (Ladywood)

Watkins, Tudor

Willis, E. C. (Edinburgh, E.)

White, Mrs. Eirene

Winterbottom, R. E.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

Mr. Boweo and Mr. Michael Foot.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

  DEFENCE
  Order read for resuming adjourned debate on Amendment to Question [4th March].
  That this House approves the Statement on Defence, 1963, contained in Command Paper No. 1936.—[Mr. Thorneycroft.]
  Which Amendment was, to leave out from "House" to the end of the Question and to add instead thereof:
  "has no confidence in a Government whose defence policies have collapsed repeatedly over eleven years and which now presents no policy to justify asking the taxpayers for the biggest defence expenditure in the peacetime history of Great Britain".—[Mr. Healey.]
  Question again proposed, That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question.
  4.19 p.m.
  Mr. Gordon Walker: Anyone who is concerned with the power and influence of Britain in the world must have been very depressed and disturbed by the two speeches we heard yesterday from the Government Front Bench and by the White Paper presented to us by the Government. The Secretary of State for War gave us a swashbuckling speech in his favourite rôle of a pocket Palmerston; I will have more to say about the contents of that speech later. The Minister of Defence made some very perfunctory remarks—and I regret that he is not in his place at the moment—about defence; that part of his speech was really as blank as his own White Paper.
  The Minister of Defence then devoted almost the whole of his speech to the question of the integration of the Services. The timing of this announcement by the Minister of Defence is very odd. He gave us rather half-baked, ill-thought out and incomplete proposals, and the reason why he did it at this particular moment is, I think, quite clear. This is the old trick of holding back something which sounds important until the last possible moment and then produce it to divert attention from things which the right hon. Gentleman does not want
  222
  discussed, namely, the convulsion of the Government's policy as a result of the Skybolt fiasco.
  The Minister of Defence said that the Government had taken a decision in principle. What matters is not a decision in principle but hard decisions of practice, organisation and command which have to be taken. The decision in principle, after all, was taken as long ago as 1957 and was embodied in the 1958 White Paper. We were told then that the Services were being subordinated to the Ministry of Defence.
  The right hon. Gentleman left almost all of the critical questions open. As my hon. Friend the Member for Dudley (Mr. Wigg) said, the Government have not even decided whether there should be one accounting officer. This is a crucial question. A single accounting officer is absolutely indispensable to a single Ministry of Defence. If there are four accounting officers the cake will still be cut up in the way described by the right hon. Gentleman and which we want to avoid. Apparently the right hon. Gentleman is not even sure whether there will still be a Board of Admiralty and similar bodies. I understand that the Chiefs of Staff will still individually give the advice of their own Services and will have individual access to the Prime Minister.
  Nonetheless, I welcome this as a step in the right direction. It is something which the Labour Party has long asked for. But we must tackle this question in a much more radical way. The central and fundamental problem which we face is finding a defence policy which can be effectively supported by small regular forces in conditions which are really no longer suited to the historical evolution of three Services each concerned with its own natural element.
  The Minister was woolly on this point. He said yesterday:
  "Fighting efficiency depends in the last resort upon the pride a man takes in his ship, in his regiment or his squadron. We do not want to blur that."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 4th March, 1963; Vol. 673, c. 38.]
  But this is not the issue. The issue is not the unit, squadron or ship in which a

  223
  man takes pride. The real issue is the independence of the Service. After all, each regiment and each unit is now integrated into a Service. It does not thereby lose its identity and men do not lose their pride in it, although it is subordinated to an overall direction of policy. The same thing applies to joint operations. When there are joint operations, units remain the same and are still a source of pride.
  We have to achieve for the three Services in combination what each Service has achieved within itself. The importance of men having pride in their units is not the issue. The Service is the issue.
  We must come back to this point at a later stage. As my hon. Friend the Member for Dudley said, we must have a White Paper with proposals properly set out in it and we must have a full debate.
  We do not propose to be diverted from the main issue of this debate, namely, what is the fundamental reason for the continual failure of important Government defence policies? We have had so many of them that the Government's defence policy is in ruins. The fundamental reason for this is the Government's stubborn refusal to get their priorities and principles right.
  I do not say that it is easy to get the defence problems of Britain in proper focus and to solve them. We must tackle very grave and onerous questions in working out the proper defence policy for Britain. Our guiding aim must be to secure for Britain as great an influence in the world as we possibly can. I resented the rather cheap jibes of the Secretary of State for War last night about our wanting to strip the country of its defences and leave it naked. That is all right for a platform speech, but it is not worthy of a Minister of the Crown speaking in what is meant to be a serious defence debate.
  Therefore, the first step is to get the principles and priorities right. As I see it, our defence policy must rest on two principal foundations. First, we must at last reach a clear-cut decision to end the hopelessly extravagant and wasteful attempt to maintain a British independent nuclear deterrent. The Skybolt fiasco means that our V-bombers
  224
  will rather more rapidly lose their strategic rôle. I take it that that is why they have been handed over to N.A.T.O. in a tactical rôle. That decision was right. This is the start of the tapering off of our powerful but, as it is becoming, obsolescent V-bomber force. What is wrong is the Government's determination to cling to the idea of maintaining an independent deterrent in other forms.
  I do not wish to go over the technical and detailed matters which we discussed in the debate on the Nassau Agreement. I want to go straight to the major remaining argument of the Government in support of this policy. It is—and the Minister of Defence and the Secretary of State for War stated it yesterday—that without a nuclear weapon of our own we shall be exposed to nuclear blackmail. This is the fundamental argument of the Government in justifying their policy.
  The Secretary of State for War at last gave us an example of what he meant by this yesterday when he said:
  "…it may well suit Russia to say on some future occasion, 'Let one British soldier, or perhaps a marine, set foot on the soil of such and such a land, even if by invitation of those who dwell there, and we will deliver a devastating nuclear attack on your island home.'"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 4th March, 1963; Vol. 673, c. 155.]
  This is the first clear statement that we have had of this argument and which makes some attempt at giving an example. However, if one analyses this, it appears a grotesque proposition. It is, first, based on a distrust of the United States, a belief that they would not stand by us when we were threatened by a nuclear attack from Russia which might start a nuclear war. This is the real basic idea.
  Everything is possible, but in defence and foreign policy one must make some assumptions, and it seems to me that the safest and most realistic assumption is that the United States would not abandon us or Europe in their own interests. They would never, and could never, allow the Soviet Union to move its missile bases further West—nearer the United States. That is one reason. Another reason is that if they abandoned Europe they would leave themselves in a crisis with only one choice, which would be that of nuclear war. They would deprive themselves of the conventional option, which America could never dream of doing.

  225
  Apart from that, the right hon. Gentleman gives the wrong answer to the fundamental question of what deters Russia from making a nuclear attack on Britain alone and in isolation. This is the point which the right hon. Gentleman made. The thing which deters Russia from doing that is simply their fear that they would be exposed to the terrifying annihilating first-strike weapon from America. This could happen if they started attacking us in this way—[An HON. MEMBER: "Threatening us."] All right, threatening us. If we stand up to the threat, the threat will not be delivered because the Russians would fear that, if they attacked us in isolation, the Americans would deliver a devastating first-strike attack upon them. However slight the risk might be, it is a risk that Russia cannot conceivably run. It is that which protects us from nuclear blackmail and not the two or three Polaris submarines—which might be all that would be operational at any one moment.
  The second foundation of our defence—
  Sir Cyril Osborne: Does not the right hon. Gentleman consider it absurd to think that Russia would launch an attack on us because one of our soldiers went to one country?
  Mr. George Wigg: That was what the Minister said.
  Mr. Gordon Walker: To that I say "Hear, hear". The Minister stated exactly that. I agree with the hon. Member that it was nonsense.
  Mr. Michael Foot: It is the best speech that the hon. Member has made in the House.
  Mr. Gordon Walker: I say to the Secretary of State for War that there are times when we all say, "Save us from our friends".
  The second foundation on which we must base our defence policy is that we must have first-class conventional forces. This is not so much a question, as some hon. Members opposite argued yesterday, of enlarging our conventional forces as of giving them first-rate equipment so that they are the best we can have, maybe the best in the world.
  This is something that we owe to our soldiers. Our forces are frighteningly
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  under-equipped, particularly in Germany. The Memorandum accompanying the Army Estimates, which is bound up with the White Paper, is a piece of camouflage. It paints a picture of a wonderfully equipped modern army. But when one reads the fine type, however, one finds a catalogue of weapons which do not yet exist, which may not exist for six or seven years or which are coming under design study. The picture when one reads it carefully with all its qualifying phrases, is very different from the general impression that is attempted to be given.
  The present state of B.A.O.R. is alarming. I am talking not about morale and discipline, which are, without question, first-class, but about equipment, which is the Government's responsibility. We are dangerously undergunned and outgunned. At last, we are to get the close-support Abbot, a good gun. At last, we will be able to replace the 25-pounder, which is the only close-support gun we have. As to the long-range gun, the Minister of Defence was ambiguous. I hope that if he winds up the debate tonight, he will be able to give us a little more clarity.
  The Minister of Defence said that subject to satisfactory contract arrangements, if an order is placed now, the American 175 mm. gun—which is an excellent one—should come into delivery in 1964. There are a lot of qualifications there. Is a contract or order to be placed? Will the gun come forward? We want a clearer statement, because the provision of a long-range gun is essential if we are to equip our soldiers properly and equally in Germany. Incidentally, we need a medium-range gun. I do not think that one is in sight. We have never been told about one. We have no weapon for countering low-flying aircraft, which the Russians on their side are developing and which may be one of the chief dangers to which our men might well be exposed.
  Apart from the need to equip our soldiers properly, first-class conventional forces would be in the general national interest. They would be far better suited to the defence and protection of our overseas interests. A shortage of conventional forces exposes those interests to great dangers. Secondly, the provision of first-class conventional forces would enlarge and not diminish our influence in the Alliance and in the world. This is a basic difference between the two sides and I want to state it as clearly as I can. We

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  are not stripping the country naked; we are not doing that sort of thing. We are trying to find a way to enlarge and increase the influence of this country in the Alliance and in the world.
  A nuclear deterrent of our own makes a marginal contribution to the Western deterrent. It does not buy us influence, as was shown over Cuba. If we spent that money on the equipment, the improvement, the modernisation and the mobility of our conventional forces, this would make an indispensable contribution to the Alliance and not a dispensable or marginal contribution. That would give us, not all the influence in the world, but correspondingly increased influence.
  We should use this increased influence to take the initiative to reorganise N.A.T.O. I am very disturbed about the state of N.A.T.O. I am even more disturbed about the prospects that seem ahead in N.A.T.O. It seems to me that we are in grave danger of moving from our original concept of a single alliance to a new concept of two linked alliances, one on each side of the Atlantic. The notion of an alliance within an alliance must weaken and ultimately ruin N.A.T.O. Our guiding aim must be to resist this sort of development of two linked alliances displacing a single N.A.T.O. alliance.
  In that connection, one must face the problem of the challenge and the difficulty of General de Gaulle. We are all in danger of getting too much flustered by the General. We let him get us too worried and we think too much about all the difficulties that he can cause. We must criticise his attitudes, particularly towards N.A.T.O., but we should not exaggerate, as some people do, his capacity to upset the apple cart.
  The internal economic position of France is not as strong as many people think. The very large devaluation which General de Gaulle made, and from which his country derived great economic benefits, is beginning to wear out. Nor can he escape the facts of the world. France is not a super-Power. France cannot be equal to Russia or the United States. It can never displace the United States as the indispensable nuclear protector of Europe and, indeed, of France itself. In the attempt to do so, General de Gaulle is already slashing his conventional
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  forces, and will have to continue to do so, thereby reducing his value to his allies and neighbours in N.A.T.O. and Europe. Certainly, we should not follow General de Gaulle's example. We should realise that he is following our example and making the same sort of mistake that we made in the 1957 White Paper.
  General de Gaulle may sulk in his tent, and this can weaken and embarrass the Alliance—there is no point in disguising that—but certainly he has no capacity to destroy N.A.T.O. if we go about things in the right way and keep our heads.
  I want to say clearly that I think that the United States is not helping by producing the present flood of proposals for multilateral, multinational and all the other kinds of deterrents. I agree with the aim of the United States to achieve a greater sharing between allies of nuclear strategy and policy, but it seems to me that the United States, by producing all these proposals for multilateral and other similar kinds of deterrent, is not achieving that aim and is endangering other aims which she rightly regards as of great importance.
  The proposals for multilateral deterrents are bound, first, to divert and dissipate the energy of the Alliance. They require a great deal of talk, discussion, and so on, which we should devote to other matters. Secondly, they are bound to divide the Alliance. We know that Canada and the Scandinavian allies are doubtful about this proposition. There will be great argument and division unnecessarily over this matter.
  All these proposals are designed, as I see them, to create the illusion that European nations have a nuclear independence which, in fact, they will not possess, because when one looks at all these proposals one sees that they all go back to an ultimate United States command. This would be an illusion of independence. If any real proposals were made that would put nuclear forces under complete independent European control without going back to American command, this would be much worse. It would split N.A.T.O. into two alliances and it would spread nuclear weapons and make disarmament more difficult.
  I also notice that all these proposals are devices to get European nations to

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  bear part of the cost of the American nuclear missile programme. It seems to me that it must endanger any alliance if the principle were to be established that the lesser allies paid the major ally an actual sort of levy. This would be a source of great weakness to the Alliance. I am in favour of paying our contribution in full to the Western Alliance, to the club, but I want to pay it in first-class conventional forces; I want to pay it in real coin, not in prestige paper money.
  Colonel Sir Tufton Beamish: This will not make real sense to the House or the country. Everyone naturally wants to know what sort of size of conventionally armed forces the Opposition has in mind, by how much their size would he increased and how they would be raised. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will not leave that subject without saying anything about it.
  Mr. Gordon Walker: I want, of course as large conventional forces as we can get by recruitment. I am not thinking so much—I made this clear in my speech—of enlarging the conventional forces as of enormously improving their equipment, mobility and armament. This is the issue in my mind, but, of course, if we can recruit more all the better.
  Viscount Lambton: Will the right hon. Gentleman make it clear whether he is in favour of limiting what is reached by voluntary recruitment, or whether he would be definitely against having conscription?
  Mr. Gordon Walker: I certainly think that we can achieve our aims without conscription and that Regular forces have a very great advantage over conscripted forces.
  Viscount Lambton: What number?
  Mr. Gordon Walker: I am not in Government. I cannot say exactly what number. As a matter of fact, the Government are varying the numbers almost every month. We cannot in Opposition answer detailed precise questions of that kind.
  Viscount Lambton: They are important questions.
  Mr. Gordon Walker: They are important questions and they are questions which we shall answer very quickly when we are in office, which will be very soon.
  Our aim should be to use the enhanced, increased influence that we should get by very good conventional forces, far better equipped than we have today, to secure the reorganisation of N.A.T.O. which would give the allies of America a very real share of control in N.A.T.O. over nuclear strategy and policy. Our principal aim should be the simple one that it is better to have an effective share in the total Western deterrent than a partial share in a partial deterrent. This should be the principle on which we go. But we must be clear what is obtainable and what is not obtainable. I do not think that there is any substitute for one man having the power to press the button in the event of having to answer a Russian first strike. There is no substitute for that, but there is the possibility of a real and effective share in the very terrible responsibility of shaping nuclear strategy.
  The allies could share with the United States in decisions about forward production and plans, about deployment and targeting. These are all hard and difficult decisions in which we could share. Also in shaping the general concept about the possible use of these weapons. We should also share—I attach immense importance to this—in shaping N.A.T.O. doctrine about tactical nuclear weapons in Europe.
  I want to make it clear, because this was apparently misunderstood in some speeches yesterday, that these tactical nuclear weapons must exist in Europe so long as Russia has them. We cannot expose our men with unequal weapons in points of danger and, indeed, the mere presence of these weapons would inhibit the conventional massing of forces by Russia. But we must get away from the very dangerous over-dependence upon these weapons which exists today. All N.A.T.O. exercises, I think, have shown that our forces act on the assumption of an automatic, almost immediate resort to tactical nuclear weapons in almost every conceivable kind of emergency that might arise in Europe.
  In our own military interest, we should redeploy these tactical nuclear weapons.

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  We should withdraw them, so far as possible, from our front line forces and defences. So far as possible, we should withdraw them physically—there are limits here depending upon range—but we should absolutely withdraw them in terms of command structure. They should be put under a separate command which ultimately goes up to S.A.C.E.U.R., of course, but which is distinct from that of our conventional fighting forces. All the forces in Europe, and ours, too, ought to rely mentally and tactically on the use of conventional arms, and not mentally and tactically on the assumption that nuclear weapons would come very early indeed to their aid. It makes a fundamental difference to the approach, organisation and tactics of the forces whether we have a dependence on tactical nuclear weapons and automatic assumption of their use, or whether we work on the opposite principle.
  This redeployment in our own interests would be a step towards something to which the Labour Party attaches very great importance, namely, the achievement of a nuclear-free zone in Central Europe, based upon the maintenance of a balance of military forces. In this connection, it is very significant that it is not only on this side of the Iron Curtain that this discussion is going on about conventional and nuclear forces; a very vigorous controversy is going on also in the Russian Armed Forces.
  If we are to get our principles and priorities right, we must never forget that the ultimate aim of defence and foreign policy must, of course, be disarmament. The purpose of defence is, after all, to reduce the dangers to which the country is exposed, and we cannot do this more surely or better than by agreed all-round disarmament. That is a more effective way, if one can achieve it, of reducing the dangers to which the country is exposed than even the best armaments.
  We feel that the pursuit and study of disarmament should not be a sort of adjunct to Government policy, experts in conferences and so forth, but should become an integral part of defence policy. That is why we want to set up a disarmament Department or office in the heart of the structure of Government. The duty of such a Department or office would be to make continuous hard-
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  headed study of the techniques, methods and scientific problems of disarmament, and it should be organised in such a way that its ideas are continuously and constantly in the minds of Ministers and the Cabinet. This must figure as much in the minds of the Government as the problems of defence in the ordinary sense and of foreign policy.
  We realise fully, of course, the difficulties and great stumbling blocks in the way of an advance towards disarmament, but we are not altogether unhopeful about the prospects. After all, the United States and Russia have a certain limited mutual interest in securing disarmament or, at any rate, a check on the enormously increasing cost of armaments. This mutual interest has, I think, been shown by the very great narrowing of the gap on the question of a test ban and also—perhaps more significant—the relatively similar approach which both sides have made to the broader problems of disarmament.
  But, clearly, it is not just a matter of wishing and hoping for disarmament. We can achieve disarmament in the modern horribly complex world only by tackling hard and complex technical problems. I do not think that the British Government have made a sufficiently powerful, effective and impressive contribution to this working out of the technical, scientific and similar details and problems of disarmament. My own dearest wish would be to see Britain play a decisive rôle in helping to lift from humanity the burden of dread which has rested upon it since Hiroshima.
  4.50 p.m.
  The Minister of Aviation (Mr. Julian Amery): The problems we are facing and discussing in our debate are singularly baffling, and I pay tribute to the objectivity with which the right hon. Member for Smethwick (Mr. Gordon Walker) attempted to face them in his speech. He accepted the difficulty of the problems on which the Government have to pronounce, and on which it is the duty of the Opposition to offer criticism. He stuck to the facts. He expressed clear recognition of the very great power of the V-force of Bomber Command today. If I may say it without offence, I think that in this his speech was in singular contrast to those of his two hon. Friends

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  who spoke yesterday and who tried to tackle these problems in a sweeping way as if they were really quite easy and could be dealt with in a Daily Mirror leading article style.
  The right hon. Gentleman said that the problem had two foundations. The first foundation, he said, speaking for his own side, was the desire to end the deterrent. He based himself on the claim that nuclear blackmail of this country was unlikely. He could not, he said, envisage circumstances in which the United States could possibly abandon us. The right hon. Gentleman will remember Mr. Christian Herter's Press conference at the end of President Eisenhower's régime. Coming to more recent times, it is interesting to note what President Kennedy himself has said about the relevant phrase in the Nassau communiqué referring to our supreme national interests.
  When asked in what circumstances he thought that this clause in the agreement might apply, President Kennedy said:
  "…if they were threatened with a bombardment of their island, they might feel that they wanted to have the capacity to respond."
  He went on:
  "I think probably the interest of any nation, if they are going to put that much of an effort into it"—
  meaning the deterrent—
  "every nation is conscious that there may be a moment when it is isolated and when its national interests are involved. The British have had several of those experiences. They had them certainly at the beginning of the Second War. So I think the concept of their having to be alone is rather a strong one in the British."
  He went on to say:
  "Yet to operate in the case of Cuba, we had the support of the Alliance. We might have had a situation where we did not. I think we"—
  the Americans, he means—
  "would probably want to feel that after due notice, we had some control over these weapons".
  The President was recognising that every country may feel, if it makes the effort necessary to build a deterrent, that it must ultimately have control over it.
  I can quite see that it is open to any private politician, journalist, critic or observer to gamble on this and say, "I think that the odds are that we can be safe under the American nuclear umbrella". But a Government cannot
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  gamble with the safety of the nation and the people. One is thinking in terms of the situation not today but 10 years ahead. It takes 10 years to develop a weapon system. Therefore, in my view, it is irresponsible to believe that, 10 years ahead, one can rely on forces not in one's control. We have seen some pretty big changes in the last 10 years. I go a step further. It seems very strange that the right hon. Gentleman and his colleagues should wish us to strip ourselves of our nuclear power in a period in which it is almost certain that both France and China as well as Russia and America will become nuclear Powers.
  Mr. Gordon Walker: The Minister says that we must look 10 years ahead and not rely on anybody else. Is not he relying on America to provide Polaris just about 10 years from now?
  Mr. Amery: There is a great difference between the supply of weapons by allies and facing a situation which many hon. Members opposite have often described as national suicide.
  The right hon. Gentleman went on to speak about first-class conventional forces well equipped. I find it a little difficult to follow his thinking here—it was the second foundation which he put—because, as far as I could judge, his contribution to equipping them more effectively was to withdraw the tactical forces from the front line.
  In my view, there is a third foundation of defence policy, and to this I now turn. My right hon. Friend will deal with the great questions of the deterrent when he winds up tonight, but there is a side to all this which has not, I feel, been sufficiently discussed in the debate. I refer to the scientific, technological and industrial base without which one cannot equip fighting forces or give them the support which they need. Partly, of course, this is a matter of money, but more important than money and even harder to get are the qualified scientists without whose help one cannot develop the weapon systems one will need in the future.
  The Department over which I have the honour to preside employs nearly 3,000 qualified scientists and engineers, and this makes us one of the biggest single employers of scientists in the world. We

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  sponsor most of the research in the aviation industry and very nearly half the research in the electronics industry. This is a formidable total—about 20 per cent. of the total research of the country, and 80 per cent. of it is done on defence account.
  Hon. Members will, of course, have seen the report of the Royal Society on the drain of scientists from this country to the United States. I am glad to say that there have not been many from the Ministry of Aviation. We have lost four during the past five years. On the industrial side—I refer to the aviation and military electronics industry—the loss has been less than 1 per cent. The truth is that both in our establishments and in industry our research scientists have had a challenging job to do, and this has, I think, made up to a considerable extent for any difference in the salaries or facilities we have been able to offer.
  These scientific resources are very precious, and it is important to make the best use of them. Here I pay tribute to the work which my right hon. Friend the present Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations did in regrouping the aircraft industry, and which has substantially eliminated duplication of scientific effort. When there were several airframe companies, there was, inevitably, a good deal of duplication. With the reorganisation of the industry, the same total of scientific effort has been applied to the solution of a much wider range of problems.
  Now, a few words about how we use, in the military interest, our scientific and technological resources. Rather more than half our effort goes into monitoring and supervising the development and production of equipment for the forces. The remainder goes into research. Broadly, there are two kinds of research. There is research aimed at particular projects—the TSR2, the P1154, or whatever it may be—and there is general research which absorbs about one-third of the effort.
  By general research I mean research which has no direct or immediate relation to a particular military or even civil requirement, but which is of intrinsic scientific value. Unless we do work of this kind, we shall not be able to meet the increased requirements of the future. I will give one or two examples.
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  Our fastest firm operational requirement at present calls for speeds of Mach 3. We are at present experimenting and studying at Farnborough a need which we think will arise for sub-orbital manned flight at speeds of Mach 14.
  A great deal of research is going on into materials. It is easy enough to grasp the possibilities of hypersonic flight, or satellites in space, but we shall not be able to do much about them unless we can develop the necessary materials, the coolants, sealants and transparencies, as the scientists call what we would call anti-freeze, glue and windows. My scientists have laid great stress on the importance of work on these materials. We have accordingly set up at Farnborough a new Chemistry, Physics and Metallurgy Department and a new materials group at the Explosives Research and Development Establishment. At the Royal Radar Establishment we are making a special study of the electrical properties of pure materials at low temperature.
  This is a field of research which may well bring advances as dramatic as the transistor and the laser. This may one day allow a complete break-through in the generation and transmission of electrical power. We are also doing a great deal of work on micro-miniaturisation. Hon. Members will know what an ordinary computer looks like. It is a box about eighteen inches high. We have now at the Royal Radar Establishment reduced that to the size of the tiny object I hold in my hand for the House to see. There are 350 units in a box of this kind, which represents an effective computer.
  Most of this research work is carried out on the Defence Vote, but of course much of it has quite important civil application. For instance, the evolution of the slender delta wing which is paid for on the Defence Vote is fundamental to the development of the Concord project. Data handling research for radar defence has led directly to computers and machine-tool control.
  Mr. E. Shinwell: The right hon. Gentleman might elucidate what he is driving at. Do we understand that all this research, with all the 3,000 scientists at the right hon. Gentleman's command and all the paraphernalia associated with research and

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  development, is directed to the production of aircraft? But what about the nuclear deterrent; or do the Government regard the nuclear deterrent as being confined, apart from contributions from the United States which may come along in due course, to the production of aircraft?
  Mr. Amery: The right hon. Gentleman no doubt will have the patience to hear me out and I will be dealing with some of the nuclear aspects presently. What I have been trying to explain—and not enough attention has been paid to it in debate—is the importance not only of having an effective force of scientists, technologists and industry but of providing the industry for them, and this goes across the board of the conventional side as well as the nuclear side, in which hon. Members opposite have expressed interest.
  In asking the House, therefore, to endorse our expenditure on general research, it is fair to claim that there is a very valuable pay-off in terms of the civil exploitation of military discoveries. Our whole technology is strengthened in the process for peaceful as well as warlike purposes.
  I should like to turn for a moment to research on particular projects, or rather to research and development, because we cannot separate the two. The process of development gives rise continuously to problems which can be resolved only by research. Research and development is something of a controversial issue. We have been under a great deal of fire because of the cost in time and money. The sums involved are very great and I admit that estimates in terms of time and cost have proved wildly inaccurate. All this has given rise to a good deal of criticism and, as a former Secretary of State for Air, I have been among the critics. I know better than most how slippages in time and cost can jeopardise military planning and make nonsense of defence budgeting. It is right, therefore, to devote a few moments to this issue, if the right hon. Member for Easington will allow me.
  I should like to examine why our estimates have so often been wide of the mark. The problem facing the Ministry is quite different in scale, and to some extent even in kind, from the old supply problems as we knew them even as re-
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  cently as the Korean War. There is hardly any problem today which our scientists and engineers cannot solve—given the time and the resources. The difficulty is to estimate accurately how much time and how much of the resources.
  When, for instance, it is decided to develop a new aircraft or guided weapon one is designing a weapons system which is aimed at overcoming the defences which one thinks a potential enemy will have developed in 10 years' time. It is a sort of chess-board manoeuvre. One tries to meet, well ahead, the move which one thinks the other side will make. This is well expressed in the phrase "anti-missile missile".
  It is easy enough to work out solutions to these problems on paper, but when it comes to cutting metal and fitting black boxes for something which has never been done before it is very difficult to say how long it will take and how much it will cost. What is more, in the course of the cycle of development and production, there will be changes in defence policy, or new intelligence will come in about the intentions of a potential enemy. All this may well lead to changes in the requirements and therefore to modifications.
  Let the House take, for instance, a project like the TSR2. This aircraft has to fly at supersonic speed pretty well on the deck. It must be able to follow the contours of the ground. It must also fly at supersonic speed high up. It needs a short take-off capability. It must be rugged enough to land and to take off from unprepared strips. It must provide a stable platform not only for the reliable delivery of nuclear weapons but also to carry a range of conventional weapons. Originally conceived in the tactical rôle, it is now to be equipped to fulfil a strategic rôle. On top of all these things, it has to give its crew a safe and reasonably comfortable ride. None of these things have been done before in a single aircraft. They involve new inventions and any error in one component may well lead to modifications in another.
  As one develops an aircraft like this one is bound to run into problems which one did not expect. To solve them takes time, and in these things time is money. Every extra month spent on solving a

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  problem means an extra month in which one has to pay the salaries of the design staff and the overheads of the firm.
  This is not just a British problem. The Harvard Business School recently investigated a dozen major American weapon programmes. Its report shows that the ultimate cost of development has been anything from twice to seven times the original estimate. There was one remarkable instance where a project was completed on time and for less than the original estimate, but I am told that it was scrapped as obsolete as soon as the development was finished.
  I have called for a similar study, but I do not say that this will be an answer to the problem. It is clear that this is not just a British problem. The Americans have it and the French have it, and I dare say it is known behind the Iron Curtain too. I am sure that the House will agree that in these circumstances it is not altogether surprising if our estimating has been sometimes at fault. But to explain failure in estimating does not excuse us from the duty of trying to do a great deal better than we have done so far, because until we can prepare more accurate estimates it will be very difficult to achieve effective forward planning for defence.
  The House is already familiar with the different stages in the development of a weapons system—the operational requirements, the feasibility study, the project study and the development contract. I will not cover this ground again today, but I should like to mention one or two new steps we have taken to improve our estimating. For every major project, we have now set up a management board. These boards meet at regular intervals to consider progress and take major new decisions when these are called for. They are attended by administrators and scientists from the Ministry, top representatives of the different contractors on the airframe, engine and electronic sides and by representatives of the customers—for example, the Royal.Air Force or the Royal Navy.
  These boards are served by a project director in the Ministry who may be a scientist, engineer or a Service officer and whose job is to co-ordinate the Government side of the work. He has to
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  make sure that all the information on the project is brought at once to the attention of our best experts on the airframe, engine and electronic sides, so that any problem can be solved as quickly and as cheaply as possible.
  We are also devoting rather more of our scientific resources to monitoring industry's work. This is an effective method of control, but I should be reluctant to push it too far because monitoring—that is to say, putting Government scientists in to supervise the work of industrial engineers—means the duplication of effort and also means taking them off original work.
  Sir Harry Legge-Bourke: My right hon. Friend refers to customer's representatives—in other words, from the Service Departments—on the projects. Has any note been taken of the recommendation in the Zuckerman Report that serving officers concerned with matters of this kind ought to be able to spend rather more years on this work than has been the practice hitherto? Cross-posting has happened so often and just as a man has become expert he has had to move.
  Mr. Amery: That is a matter which is more for my right hon. Friends the heads of the Services than for me.
  The prime responsibility, of course, for the efficient management of a project rests with the contractor. But we are insisting in certain cases that management introduce programme evaluation reporting techniques and other methods of technical and costs control. All this will help to produce an improvement in our estimating.
  Research and development expenditure by my Department on defence projects is about four times as great as on civil projects but this expenditure on defence nevertheless has an important pay-off on the civil side. For instance, the Olympus engine for the TSR2 is basically the engine which will power the Concord.
  In the same way, the Blue Streak missile, first developed for military purposes, is to be the first stage of a civil space launcher. The blind landing system which proved so effective during last December's smog at London Airport has been developed on the defence account for the V-bombers and the Belfast. It has now also been installed in the VC10

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  and is to go into the Trident. It may well revolutionise civil flying as well as pay a decent dividend to London Airport.
  Only last week we placed an order on military account with Westlands for a new hovercraft, the SRN3. We cannot yet be sure whether the hovercraft has a valid military application. Early studies suggest that it may be useful to the Royal Navy in an anti-submarine rôle and possibly to the Army for amphibious operations. The only way to make sure is to experiment, and the new hovercraft when built will be handed over to the Navy for trials. The results of these trials are bound to have important implications for civil exploitation.
  We are also investigating the possibility of giving an aircraft vertical lift by means of helicopter blades. After take-off, the blades would be retracted, rather like a wine whisk, to allow the aircraft to fly at normal high speeds.
  The defence budget, of course, benefits from research and development on the civil side. The VC10, the DH125, and the Avro 748, for instance, were all developed for civil purposes very largely, if not entirely, at the expense of the firms concerned. All three of these aircraft have now been ordered for the Royal Air Force, so here are examples of the industry helping to finance the military research and development budget.
  I have concentrated so far on the scientific and technological base of our defence efforts. I now turn to the industrial base. Last July, a few hours after I became Minister of Aviation, we had a debate on the aircraft industry. Hon. Members on both sides of the House discussed the prospects of British aviation and expressed deep anxiety. The chiefs of the industry were also very worried men at the time. Exports were falling off and the prospect of large redundancies loomed ahead both for design staffs and production workers.
  I was urged from every quarter of the House to do what I could to speed up decisions and get orders placed. I think that I can now report some progress. Since our debate last July the following decisions have been taken. First, six further VC10s have been ordered for Transport Command, Contract negotiations are in progress and a substantial share of work is to be sub-contracted to Shorts.
  Mr. Wigg: Will the right hon. Gentleman also state exactly how many times these projects have been announced before. This first one was announced on 10th August as a camouflage of the cancellation of Blue Water. Will he say, when he is stating an item, how many times it has been announced already and whether it has been included in a special announcement?
  Mr. Amery: If the hon. Gentleman had listened to what I said he would have heard me say that I was summarising the decisions taken since last July. Of course they have been announced before. In July the House charged me to get decisions taken and I am now reporting to the House the work I have done.
  Secondly, a full project study contract has been placed for the P1154 and is nearly complete. Design work has begun and the firm will soon start cutting metal. The P1154 leads the world as a vertical take-off fighter aircraft.
  Yesterday the hon. Member for Sheffield Park (Mr. Mulley)—and I am sorry that he is not here at the moment —complained that we have not done anything to live up to our professions last year of trying to build aircraft that would serve more than one purpose. But it is expected that the P1154 will serve as a replacement for both the Hunter and the Sea Vixen.
  Third, a contract is under negotiation to supply the DH125 to R.A.F. Training Command. The DH125 is basically an executive aircraft which flies at high subsonic speeds, comparable to those of the Comet or the Boeing. It sells in the civil market at about half the price of its American competitors. The R.A.F. will use it to replace the Varsity. Work on this aircraft has begun.
  Fourth, preliminary development and production work has begun on the military version of the Avro 748. This is to be a short range version for the R.A.F.
  Fifth, we are advancing £10 million to Shorts to complete orders for the Belfast long-range freighter and for the Seacat.
  Sixth, deliveries of the Scout helicopter for the Army have begun and are now well under way.
  Seventh, as I told the House earlier today, we have decided to place an order with Hawker Siddeley for the Hastings/Beverley replacement. In range, pay

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  load, speed and take-off performance this aircraft promises to be the most advanced tactical freighter in the world.
  Lastly, on the civil side, the decision has been taken to join with the French Government to develop the Concord. All these decisions have been taken since July. In addition, development continues on the P1127 vertical take-off fighter and the TSR2 which, I am convinced, will prove to be the outstanding combat aircraft of this decade. The cancellation of Skybolt has only underlined its importance and the soundness of the Government's decision to develop it.
  Production work also continues on the V-bombers, the Buccaneer, the Lightnings, the Sea Vixen and the Argosy. In addition, there is a substantial civil programme centering on the VC10, the Trident and the BAC111.
  Taken together, all this adds up to a programme of work which should provide a high and steady level of employment for both design and production sides of the aircraft industry and should also ensure an effective base in our defence policy.
  But one cannot fly aircraft without engines and this programme, of course, involves a corresponding load of work for the engine groups. Here I would mention specially the Olympus engine, a variant of which is to be used in the TSR2, the Spey, which will power the Trident and the Buccaneer, and the Pegasus, which provides both lift and forward thrust for the P1127.
  The electronic equipment carried by a modern aircraft represents a very high proportion of its cost. The development and production orders which I have mentioned carry with them consequential orders for the electronics industry. Reconnaissance aircraft, for instance, can now be fitted with electric scanning devices, using the line-scan principle, which take pictures by day or night and present the information on a radar display so that it is immediately available for operational use. Electronic countermeasures are also vital to all three Services, and more particularly to Bomber Command. In addition to the electronic equipment for the aircraft, our defence programme calls for ever more orders for the electronics industry. Under plan
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  Hobart, the Army's signal system is to be entirely re-equipped, and work on this has begun.
  I should like now to say a word about the guided weapons side of the industry. It is the cancellations which, like the unhappy marriages, usually hit the headlines. Let me say a word about cancellations. Of course it is heart-breaking for a design team when production has to be cancelled, but we cannot always pick a winner.
  Mr. Wigg: Hear, hear.
  Mr. Amery: If we never betted except on a certainty we would never place a bet, and the hon. Member for Dudley (Mr. Wigg), who knows the racecourse better than most, should appreciate that.
  It is the old choice between the sins of omission and the sins of commission, and, whatever the moralists may say, I have always preferred the latter. A cancellation clause is an escape route which justifies us in taking a risk, and it is quite wrong to think that a cancellation is money down the drain. The work we have done on Blue Streak and Blue Water, for example, is the foundation of our present capability both to produce ballistic missiles and to have a space programme. Here I can correct the hon. Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey), who said yesterday that the Government had spent £300 million on Blue Streak. In fact, the cost of Blue Streak up to cancellation was £84 million. The hon. Member was something of a poet in his younger days, but he must keep his imagination in check. I commend to him General Donovan's old motto— "In God we trust, the rest we check".
  We hear a good deal about Blue Streak and Blue Water, but nothing like as much about the success stories, about Bloodhound, Thunderbird, Seacat and Firestreak. Yet all these systems are in service and have given a very good account of themselves. I wonder how many hon. Members realise that the Seacat missile has been sold to Australia, New Zealand, Sweden and Germany, or that both Sweden and Switzerland have bought Bloodhound. The last two countries are particularly good judges of a good missile. They are under no financial or political pressure to buy from any particular source. They are free to take what they think best.

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  A new generation of guided weapons is now coming in. Bloodhound will be deployed next year and the development of Red Top is well advanced. The Vigilant anti-tank weapon is now in quantity production and will go into service this year. Development has begun on Swing-fire, a new anti-tank weapon for the Army, and on CF299, a new anti-aircraft guided weapon for smaller ships.
  On deterrents, Blue Steel, at which right hon. Gentlemen opposite used to mock so often, is now in service, and trials at Woomera have confirmed its accuracy and its reliability. In addition —and here I come to the right hon. Gentleman's point—we are taking other measures to reinforce our national airborne deterrent in the period before Polaris comes into service. The House will not expect me to go into details about the further strategic nuclear weapon which we are developing for carriage by the TSR2, but this will mean more work for the industry.
  Mr. Denis Healey: I appreciate that the right hon. Gentleman does not want to go into detail about this new weapon, but can he give us some idea of the order of the increase in range which it will add to the projected range of the TSR2—scores of miles, or hundreds of miles?
  Mr. Amery: It would not be in the public interest to go any further into that matter. Clearly, it means more work for the industry as well as greater power for the R.A.F. Meanwhile, my Department will have a good deal of work to do in conjunction with the Atomic Weapons Research Establishment in connection with the development and production of warheads both for the Polaris and for our airborne systems.
  The guided weapon and electronics side of the industry is very much concerned with space. It looks as though the pioneering work in space will, for once, be done on the civil rather than on the military side. Completion of the E.L.D.O. launcher and the development of the communications satellite are perhaps the most likely first steps, but I have long been convinced that space will also have important implications for the defence programme. Work done on rockets means that we could easily produce—
  Mr. Brian Harrison: My right hon. Friend has mentioned a very important matter in referring to E.L.D.O. Can he say whether, if E.L.D.O. should fall and not be successful in Europe, we would be capable of producing our own satellite launching scheme for putting a telecommunications satellite into orbit?
  Mr. Amery: My hon. Friend interrupted me in mid-stream. I was saying that the work we have done on rockets would enable us—E.L.D.O. is a civil organisation—to produce an all-British launcher for military purposes if we needed one, not at very high cost, but at fairly small cost. Our establishments over the last two or three years have also done a good deal of work on satellite research and we have recently been studying the feasibility of certain draft operational requirements for the military use of space, which my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Air has put to us. One of these has a direct bearing on our research work on a manned spacecraft, about which I spoke to the House some months ago.
  All in all, the Government will be spending some £375 million in the current year on research, development and production contracts with the aviation and electronics industries. In addition, we shall be spending £50 million on intramural research at our own establishments. Of this total, £340 million in industry and £30 million at our establishments is a direct result of the defence programme. All this represents a very full load of work for the industry, both now and for many years ahead.
  The civil pay-off for the production side of the aviation industry comes very largely in the form of exports, exports of aircraft, engines, guided weapons, and defence electronics. These are a very important item in our trading account. Last year, military exports earned us £55 million as against £80 million on the civil side. The graph of exports fluctuates up and down a bit and we should not be too depressed by the fall in last year's figures. One big order for a new military or civil aircraft could easily redress the balance.
  I hope that I have said enough to convince the House that the British aviation industry provides a fully effective scientific, technological and industrial base for

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  the defence policy which my right hon. Friend has outlined. But there are some problems ahead.
  Technologically speaking, Britain can undertake any project which it wants. What is becoming more doubtful is how far we can undertake all the projects which we need. Have we the means to meet all our requirements for aircraft and missiles for the Royal Air Force, the Royal Navy and the Army, and to equip our civil air corporations and to make a contribution in space? This is a question which has to be answered against the knowledge that research and development costs are continually increasing as projects become more sophisticated.
  To solve the problem is partly a question of money and partly of human resources. Extra money can always be found if we are prepared to forgo other expenditure. More scientists can be trained, but it takes time. Meanwhile, one way of solving the problem, as my right hon. Friend suggested yesterday, is by interdependence.
  Interdependence can take several forms. We can buy a complete weapons system off the shelf abroad. We are doing this with the French AS30 air-to-ground missile. It is also what we are doing with Polaris. British industry would be perfectly capable of developing a submarine-launched missile, but this would take longer than buying from the United States and there would be a stiff bill for the development. Buying off the shelf is only likely to pay in the long run if there is a two-way traffic—if other countries buy from us.
  That is not easy where our largest ally, the United States, is concerned. The United States has a very powerful and influential defence industry, and it is not easy to sell our weapons over there. There may be rather more scope with our European allies whose economies are more comparable with our own.
  Another form of interdependence is for several countries to invest in the development of a particular national project. Thus the United States and Germany have joined us in the development of Hawker P1127. France and Germany have joined us in the development of the RB162 lightweight vertical take-off engine. But to my mind the most in-
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  teresting form of interdependence is the joint project. In the civil field we have joined France, Germany, Italy, Belgium and the Netherlands to produce the E.L.D.O. space launcher. In the same way we have joined France to produce the Concord supersonic airliner.
  It may well be that the Concord type of agreement is one which could usefully be extended to military projects. On two recent visits to France I discussed with M. Messmer and other French Ministers a number of projects on which we might co-operate. We are in close touch and will explore and pursue the possibilities of such co-operation between our two countries. This kind of joint project has special attractions from the point of view of exports. If two countries put their money into developing an aircraft, this virtually doubles the market for the aircraft. But it means more than that, because they both stand a good chance of selling it to their traditional customers
  Competition with the Americans in the export of both military and civil aircraft is pretty fierce. The Americans have the great advantage of selling over the top of a big home market, and at the end of a very long production run. They also have the intangible, but real, advantage of being the leading Power, military and financial, in the Western Alliance. But a joint project on Concord lines is one of the ways in which we can extend our home market and put ourselves in a better posture to compete.
  Of course, interdependence is not a panacea nor an end in itself. There will be projects for which we will welcome support from abroad. There will be others where we shall want to expand our own inventions on a national basis. In any case, I think that as a general rule it will be found that one only gets serious foreign support for a project when one is prepared if necessary to go ahead on one's own.
  There is a Motion on the Notice Paper, in the names of a number of hon. Gentlemen opposite, which calls on the Government to end the dilatoriness and lack of forward planning which has brought the aircraft industry into its present difficulties. Frankly, I do not think that this charge will stick. Most of the major military programmes for aircraft and guided weapons have now been settled. They were not easy decisions to take,

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  but I cannot think of any instance where redundancy would have been affected one way or the other if we had taken our decisions a few weeks, or even a few months, earlier than we did.
  There is also an Amendment to the Motion I have mentioned. It is in the name of the hon. Member for Swindon (Mr. F. Noel-Baker) and some of his hon. Friends, and recommends
  "measures to take into public ownership as much of the industry as may be necessary to make it as efficient as, or competitive with, foreign aircraft manufacturers, including those that have been nationalised in France and elsewhere. …"
  I do not think that there is much point in comparing the structure of our industry with that of other countries. The French aircraft industry was smashed in the war. It was reduced by the Germans to subcontracting. It had to be rebuilt almost from its foundations, and this at a time when France was ruined.
  Mr. R. T. Paget: On a point of order. I have been wondering for some time how this very long essay was in any way relevant to the Motion which we are discussing. The secret seems to have emerged that the right hon. Gentleman is addressing himself to quite another Motion which is not before the House.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Sir William Anstruther-Gray): I have not taken that view. I understand defence to be the theme of the right hon. Gentleman's speech.
  Mr. George Brown: Further to that point of order. The Minister has said that he is dealing with a Motion on the Notice Paper in the name of some hon. Gentlemen, and an Amendment to that Motion in the name of other hon. Members. Neither the Motion nor the Amendment to which he is referring is before the House.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: The right hon. Gentleman is right in saying that, but in general the Minister is speaking on the general subject of defence, and I believe that to he in order in this debate.
  Mr. Amery: I am grateful to you, Mr. Deputy-Speaker. I can understand that the right hon. Gentleman would wish to bury this Motion and the Amendment as quickly as he can, but there is a
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  lot of comment on the same lines as this Motion, and it is natural that I should refer to it.
  It is unrealistic to compare the structure of the French industry with our own, but I think—
  Mr. Paget: Is it significant?
  Mr. Amery: Yes. We are talking about the industrial base of our defence policy, and there is comment, not only in this Motion but elsewhere, on how the industry ought to be organised, and it is my duty, as the Minister sponsoring the industry, to express to the House the views I hold on the way it should be organised.
  To those who seek comparisons with France, I draw atttention to the fact that the Mirage IIIV aircraft, to which the hon. Member for Loughborough (Mr. Cronin) referred at Question Time yesterday, is an interesting example of an aircraft which has come out of the private side of the French industry. I am grateful that hon. Gentlemen opposite should have expressed an interest in the nationalisation of the aircraft industry. It is a handsome political present, and we shall make the best use of it, but I beg the House to dismiss any idea of this kind.
  The British aircraft industry has a rather special history. It has grown up—
  Mr. John Cronin: It is intolerable that the right hon. Gentleman should erect these Aunt Sallies. There is nothing whatsoever about nationalising the industry in the Opposition Amendment.
  Mr. Amery: I am delighted that the hon. Gentleman should dissociate himself from it, but the tag will stick.
  The industry has a rather special history. It has grown up over the years as a result of close partnership between Government and the firms, under whatever political party has been in power, and this is a partnership which has proved itself in the two greatest wars in our history.
  On the Government side there have been outstanding administrators, and some of the best scientists in the country. On the industry's side we have had brilliant designers, daring test pilots, and

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  some of the best management in British industry. No one who has worked closely, as I have, with Sir Roy Dobson or Sir George Edwards, can doubt the industry's ability to develop, to produce, and to sell aircraft and guided weapons as good as any in the world. An industry which can develop the TSR2 and the P1154 stands in no need of nationalisation. It is in good heart and good shape, a vital element in our defence, and one which, like the Fighting Services, deserves the salute of the House.
  5.38 p.m.
  Mr. George Wigg: I count myself singularly fortunate in following the right hon. Gentleman, and perhaps a little later I shall address a few words to him, but I must not be deflected from my main quarry.
  My first thoughts turn to the conditions under which the Government's statement on defence is published this year. I can understand the argument—it was used from the Benches opposite yesterday—that there is a case for not publishing a general statement of policy year after year, but if the Government had intended to discontinue the practice of an annual defence statement, I would have thought that a year ago, when they produced their statement laying down the principles for the next five years, they would also have said, "Well, this is our statement for the next five years, and from now on we shall leave it to the three Service Ministers".
  In a year in which the Government have clearly been giving the closest attention to the organisation of defence, in a year in which they have been faced —whether they are to blame or somebody else is to blame does not matter—with a major collapse in terms of their weapon policy, in a year in which they have not been able to get away from conscription—whatever they might say they are still landed with it—in a year in which their Reserve policy has been exposed as having the greatest weakness, in a year in which they have failed to carry out the promised examination of the reserve system about which they talked in last year's White Paper, one would think that they would come forward with some sort of explanation, if not to convince the Opposition, at least to instruct those Members on the
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  Benches opposite who have the patriotism, the courage, and the wisdom to pay more attention to the defences of this country than to the political fortunes of their own party. I therefore did a little exercise, as I always do, and tried to anticipate what the White Paper would contain. I reached the conclusion that there was not going to be one.
  Having reached that conclusion, I addressed myself to the question why there would not be one. I was absolutely sure that there would be some echoes from what is called the Mountbatten Plan. If ever we want to know what Government thinking is we read Mr. Chapman Pincher. He knows nothing about defence, but he knows the Minister of Aviation very well. If anybody wants direct evidence of that, I can tell him that the worst speech that I have ever heard from any Front Bench speaker of any kind during the seventeen years that I have been in the House was a speech by the Minister of Aviation—and the next morning the Daily Express said that it was the greatest speech ever! That is direct confirmation of what I am saying.
  These are the sources of my information. I do not know the position of Lord Beaverbrook in this respect, but I rely on Mr. Chapman Pincher. He is a jolly good journalist, although he knows nothing about defence, and he has excellent sources of information. When I see someone tipping winners, I follow him. I followed this one. I guessed that this statement would be made.
  The Minister of Defence, for whom I have considerable admiration—if the party opposite wants to revive its fortunes, it should follow him; he is the most skilled Tory tactician in the House —yesterday managed to reduce the temperature of the House degree by degree by degree in a masterly diversionary exercise. What he did was right. When he took up the job of Minister of Defence, being a man of great courage he considered the whole problem and told the Prime Minister, "We will have to reorganise the Ministry of Defence". My right hon. Friend the Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell) could teach the right hon. Gentleman nothing in the art of getting away with it. I pay tribute where tribute is due.

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  I have seen this sort of work at close quarters. There is no better opportunity for seeing it than when one is one of the seconds, watching what goes on. Why did the Government do this? Here I will venture a guess. In my opinion, the Government are engaged in the major activity of switching the whole of their defence policy. The Minister of Defence no longer believes that a policy based upon the deterrent can be made to work. But let us consider what the poor Prime Minister had to face—the speech from the hon. Baronet the Member for Dorset, North (Sir Richard Glyn).
  I do not mind the same sort of speech from the hon. and gallant Member for Norwood (Sir J. Smyth); he is a highly competent soldier, and I know that he does not believe a word that he is saying. I always take note of the order of battle, and whenever I see somebody who is called early in the debate putting up the conventional line I know that it means that the Whips have been round. Yesterday, the hon. and gallant Gentleman put up a brilliant exercise in defence of the Tory Party. But when the hon. Member for Dorset, North makes the same speech my bowels turn to water. But after a bit he receives murmurs of "Hear, hear" from his colleagues.
  He, poor man, believes every word of it. He honestly believes that this country commands 20 per cent. of the deterrent. He honestly believes that President Kennedy sits down every morning and says to Mr. McNamara, "Let me have the battle order. How many V-bombers have they got? How many V-bombers are ready to go? Let Strategic Air Command know." The hon. Member speaks as though the whole defence and foreign policy of the Western world depends on our defence policy. I do not believe a word of this, and I do not believe that the Minister of Defence believes it. Further, my regard for the Prime Minister is such that I am sure he does not believe it, either.
  Let us do another little exercise. Let us start by being grown up and deal with the facts. First, I want to utter a word of criticism of one of my hon. Friends. My hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey) yesterday referred to Brunei as a "blow-pipe operation". I beg him not to do that. Let us strive after
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  reality. When we went into Brunei we went in in the dark. It may be amusing to talk about a blow-pipe operation, but our troops were carrying out the most difficult of operations and there were 19 casualties in the first three hours. There is one officer of our flesh and blood who will never come back.
  Whenever I have talked about defence in the last seventeen years I have said over and over again that I am interested because I know what it is like to be at the receiving end. I have seen the review of the book on Lloyd George and the failure in Chanak. I was serving in Chanak and in Istanbul during that operation, when the Tory Party once again put its fortunes before the good of this country. I calculated in my mind whether I could swim far enough to reach the nearest battle cruiser if things went wrong.
  I have seen these things happening over and over again. When, by some piece of misfortune—or good fortune—I came to this House and interested myself in defence, that was the sort of thing that urged me on. I always try to play fair and be true to the things to which I was brought up. That is why it has always been easy for me to avoid quarrelling with people like Viscount Head. He and I share the same tradition, and we have tried to fight the same battle.
  Brigadier Sir John Smyth: I am grateful to the hon. Member for what he has said about the Brunei operation. It naturally caused great resentment when the hon. Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey) yesterday claimed that the operation in Brunei was a blow-pipe and bow-and-arrow operation, when we remember that battalions like the 1/2nd Gurkhas suffered heavy casualties and lost a British officer—actually a son of a former colonel of the regiment. I am grateful to the hon. Member for putting that point right. The troops greatly resent statements like the one we heard yesterday from the hon. Member for Leeds, East.
  Mr. Wigg: I am obliged to the hon. and gallant Gentleman for his words of approval—especially as I had just said some rather hard things about him. But whether it was the Gurkha Regiment or part of the Royal Tank Regiment, it does

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  not make any difference, we are dealing with men of our own flesh and blood and we are placing on them obligations that we should never ask them to undertake when we deny them the means of carrying them out.
  I now turn to the question of manpower. So far the debate has been carried on as though we had got rid of conscription. In the debate we had on 30th and 31st January the Prime Minister was up to the old trick—and last night the Sorcerer's Apprentice, the Secretary of State for War, was at it again—of trying to smear my party, first, by saying that it is against the deterrent and, secondly, that it wants conscription. Nobody wants conscription. I do not want it, and hon. Members opposite do not. For the 900th or perhaps the 1,000th time, let me make it clear that the first person in this House to make any attempt to get rid of conscription was my right hon. Friend the Member for Easington, as long ago as the Whitsun debate of 1952. But we sought to lay down conditions that must be brought about in the meantime. We said that it was necessary to introduce a long-service engagement and a differential rate of pay. What the Government did in 1957 was to get rid of conscription and only afterwards to bring in the long-service engagement.
  Some of us forecast in advance what would happen, and we have been justified up to the hilt. The present Viscount Head, who was then Minister of Defence, said that we had chosen as our planning figure the figure that we expected to recruit, and that later on we would see how it worked out on the ground. The first figure announced was 375,000 for all three Services. In 1958, for the first time, the figures of 165,000 for the Army, 135,000 for the Royal Air Force and 88,000 for the Royal Navy were announced, making a total of 388,000. Then the plot thickened.
  In March, 1959, the then Secretary of State for War said that 165,000 was not good enough and that we wanted another 15,000. He told us what the 15,000 were needed for. In the OFFICIAL REPORT of 3rd March hon. Members will find, at columns 229–30, that the Secretary of State for War complained that the size of an infantry battalion at 635 was too small, and he gave
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  examples. In Korea it had not worked and in Cyprus it had not worked, and we needed at least 700 to a battalion. I will give the Secretary of State for War a little information which he can look up and check from his own files. The decision was taken by the Secretary of State that 8,440 men should be added to the infantry establishment and that in consequence infantry units should have their peace-time establishments raised to 774. As the right hon. Gentleman and I both know very well, the war establishment is much higher, but I will not mention that figure. The figure of 774 was to be the strength of an infantry battalion, and that figure was laid down in 1959. If we add 15,000 to 388,000, we get 403,000; and then in 1960 the Minister of Defence said that the figure was 400,000.
  The figure which is of interest and the first figure which one should look at in this interesting White Paper is to be found in Annexe 1. There we find what the Government recruited on 1st April—what is here needed is a break-down figure as at 1st January—and the figure is less than 388,000. The figures for the Royal Air Force and the Navy are both well below the stated figure. Let us consider an example of how it works out and see whether the Government's supporters will cheer.
  H.M.S. "Blake" cost £15 million, and its full complement was gathered on board. Suddenly this vessel had to be put into reserve and its complement of 800 men dispersed because they were short of a dozen electricians. Recently we were going into Brunei. There were two brigades in the Strategic Reserve, the 51st and the 19th and units of the 51st Brigade were selected to stand by. Of this Brigade, the Devon and Dorsets were so short of men that they could not go—
  The Secretary of State for War (Mr. John Profumo): May I be allowed to explain to the hon. Gentleman that the Devon and Dorsets are not in the Strategic Reserve.
  Mr. Wigg: They are in the 51st Brigade, that is all I know—
  Mr. Profumo: But not in the Strategic Reserve.
  Mr. Wigg: That is good. I have done my homework very well, for I know all

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  the units of the 51st Brigade—even those which are there but ought not to be there for some special reason, and that is good enough. I am quite happy to take on the Secretary of State for War regarding this one. If the Devon and Dorsets are in the 51st Brigade and ought not to be, the Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers—they were unbrigaded—were brought in to do their job and they had a strength of 450. The Royal Welch Fusiliers were sent out with a strength of 550.
  The Secretary of State himself has given the overall answer. I asked a Question of the right hon. Gentleman, and hon. Members can find the answer in the Written Answers in the OFFICIAL REPORT. There are 30 battalions of the line which at the present time are under establishment. Let us make clear what this means. We have now a total of 68 battalions—that includes eight battalions of the Gurkhas—of which at least 30 are under strength. The Secretary of State for War knows that were he honest and if he took the advice of his military advisers he would undertake the reorganisation of the infantry. He does not do that because of the alarm and despondency which it would create among hon. Members on the benches opposite.
  Turning to the question of the reserves, we were told upon the introduction of the Army Reserve Bill that a new force was being created, the "Ever-readies." There were to be bounties of £150 and 15,000 men would be recruited. They were to be the elite of the Territorial Army and would be available at a moment's notice to "top up the batteries" of the Rhine Army. How many of these men have been recruited? Is it 15,000? Hon. Members should notice that there is not a word about them in the White Paper. If the Government had succeeded in recruiting 15,000 this would not have been announced once or twice, but half a dozen times. I think that the Minister has got about 4,000. A year ago—it is in the 1962 White Paper in paragraph 38—the Minister promised an examination of the whole reserve system. But there is not a single word about it. Has anything been done?
  My hon. Friend should note a fact about all this—that there is a settling day. The Government have managed to stave off that settling day. They have done everything to get round it by talk-
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  ing about the Army Reserve and introducing the "Ever-readies" and having units well under establishment. Were they faced with an emergency, heaven knows what they would do. They have been gambling with the reserves, and that is why they have not had a long-term examination and dare not tell the House. But in May, 1965, the fun and games will start, because the last National Service man will have passed through the provisions of the reserve legislation and the Government will be brought down to whatever number they can recruit. This is the gamble which they have taken with the fortunes of this country in respect of men. Now let us turn to the question of equipment.
  The Minister of Aviation has left the Chamber. I was surprised that the right hon. Gentleman made the kind of speech which he did this afternoon. But I suppose he thought that he would get away with it. What are the overall figures in terms of expenditure? These Defence Estimates bring up the bill, since the present Government have been in office, to £18,400 million, of which £7,500 million has gone in equipment. No wonder my hon. Friend the Member for Swindon (Mr. F. Noel-Baker) talks about nationalisation. Since 1947, £4,800 million has gone into the aircraft industry from all sources. Of this £4,800 million, £3,400 million went from public sources. What have we had in exchange? Since the present Administration has been in office, or since the end of the war, there have been 300 aircraft projects of various kinds, and of that number not more than a dozen can be in any way regarded as successes. Of that dozen not more than three or four have sold overseas. I should say that the winners were the Meteor, the Vampire—and they are marginal—the Viscount, and to some extent the Hunter, particularly because of off-shore purchases.
  Of missiles, only one anywhere near a winner is the Bloodhound. The tragedy is that we take too long to make up our minds whatever may be the reason—perhaps when they get into the Government my right hon. Friends will discover what is the reason. But for some unaccountable reason we take far too long to make up our minds and so we get left behind.
  I will make a prophecy. We have said that the TSR2 is the best strike and

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  possibly the best aircraft of its kind in the world. It has not yet flown. But it weighs 90,000 1b. If we had been wiser and not so imbued with paranoia, we should have gone in for something half the size. The American F4H and the A3J can do now what it is claimed that this aircraft will do, not tomorrow but several years ahead. I think that the Government must always have three white elephants in the stable. As fast as one moves out another one moves in.
  Mr. John Hall: I am interested in the performance of the TSR2 and other American planes which have been developed on the same lines. Does the hon. Gentleman know what the performance of the TSR2 is supposed to be?
  Mr. Wigg: No. But what I do know is that the TSR2 has had a somewhat chequered political life. In 1957 the Government announced that they would not produce a successor to the manned bomber, and then, under pressure exerted by the Air Staff, in Conference Prospect they had to come forward with this project which was a successor to the manned bomber. At present, no one knows what it is. Its performance is secret. But, judging on past performances, I do not think that the Government know either. What I do know is that the Phantom and the Vigilante are two wonderful aircraft in terms of speed and performance. It is extremely doubtful what, in fact, an aircraft like the TSR2 and its weight can do.
  Mr. John Hall: I am extremely perplexed by this, because if the hon. Gentleman does not know the performance of the TSR2 how on earth can he claim to be able to compare it?
  Mr. Wigg: Again, we know that it is a strike tactical reconnaissance aircraft. We have been told that it is going to have a supersonic speed at both high and low altitudes. We also know that no weapon has been planned for it. We are told in the Defence White Paper prepared by the Secretary of State for Air last year that the AS30 will go on the TSR2. We also know that the Bullpup is going on the Buccaneer. So we know, roughly at least, the kind of weapon the Government have in mind; that it is to go in at supersonic speed, and we know its weight and scope.
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  Again, what is so highly suggestive—and here I help the hon. Gentleman if he wishes to be helped—is to watch the Government's public relations exercises. I have brought down to the House on previous occasions the Evening News which said in 1959:
  "Blue Streak Wins. Macmillan talks from strength"
  We have had another one from the same paper.
  "Missile X, the Atom Wonder. The most versatile strike weapon in history".
  This is 20th February last. I will lend it out to hon. Members afterwards.
  It is just a question of a little detective work. We know the range of the AS30, we know what the Bullpup can do, and so in actual fact this wonder weapon has a range of five or six miles.
  Mr. John Hall: How do you know?
  Mr. Wigg: The hon. Member for Wycombe (Mr. John Hall) is going back to Standard II. All that the Government has said about weapons in relation to the aircraft is that it has a tactical weapon with a range of six miles.
  I want to end this part of my speech by just saying this—the TSR2 will fall flat on its face. After an astronomical cost of £300 million or £400 million it will in due course be cancelled, and the Government will not dispose of one. In the same way I have been proved right about the Belfast, and for exactly the same reasons. The A3J and F4H have got the edge on it.
  Now I want to look back to the Secretary of State for War. He wanted to fasten on to my hon. Friend the responsibility for saying "No" to the deterrent. I will not read it again, but last night my right hon. Friend the Member for Smethwick (Mr. Gordon Walker) read an extract from his speech on 4th March, in column 155, in which he said that if the Russians saw the landing of one British soldier on some corner of a foreign field they would deliver a devastating nuclear attack on us. This is an utterance by a Minister who is responsible for a Service Department. Although on the face of it obviously it is arrant nonsense—and we all know the Secretary of State for War—let us give it some serious attention for a moment. Where shall we say this foreign field is? I do not want

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  to press it too far, and I do not mind whether it is in the Mediterranean or in the Far East. I will move it about to suit his convenience. Let us assume at the moment that it is in the Mediterranean. We have got the advantage of something which the hon. Gentleman must have forgotten about. Operation Fallex took place last year in the Mediterranean, and on 27th September last the defence correspondent of The Times, describing an operation by the Americans which was attended by the Secretary of State for Air, when the Americans put 2,000 marines on the coast in Greece, said:
  "The important factor for British defence planners, however, is the immense and costly organisation which lies behind the 2,000 marines which were put ashore with such skill yesterday. The task force which carried them to the landing area consisted of over 30 major naval units, including minesweepers, antisubmarine and anti-aircraft frigates, a strike carrier and various support and logistic craft."
  He goes on to say:
  "The great cost of the concept in men and money has caused more than one senior British officer here to express doubts about the ability of Britain to maintain effective naval task forces in the Indian Ocean, as planned in the 1962 Defence White Paper."
  It also says that the marine corps which was standing behind this force of 2,000 men wits larger than the whole of the British Army. So we now have an idea of the size of the force which was meant to frighten the Russians into a total nuclear strike which would destroy these islands. Supposing, for the purposes of the Secretary of State's arguments, that the Russians are really frightened and this force of 2,000 lands at a point which in fact is highly sensitive to Russian interests. Why should the Russians threaten that nuclear force? I have no doubt that somewhere there is a Russian Steptoe and Son and they would borrow a couple of planes of the last war and fly in and wipe them out.
  The hon. Member for Haltemprice (Mr. Wall) asked the right hon. Gentleman whether he was aware of the fact that the Americans had seven types of anti-aircraft defences. I engaged in some correspondence with the Secretary of State for War and I will lend it to the hon. Member if he likes, because the right hon. Gentleman said in his reply that he was dependent upon missiles. When I asked him to tell me the name
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  of the missile, when the order was placed and how far it had been developed, he wrote back his usual courteous and kindly reply that it was all in the process of discussion. So the Russians will not have much to fear from anti-aircraft except the last war Bofors.
  When they land, what have they got to face them? The old 25-pounder, and what about anti-tank weapons? The Secretary of State for War, for the purposes of a political argument—and no wonder he wants to sink into his seat—comes down here and, in order to embarrass and scarify the consciences of my hon. Friends, he says we have got to have a deterrent in case of a Russian threat. What piffle and what nonsense. The truth of the matter is that hon. Gentlemen opposite should be their age. If the worst comes to the worst and the deterrent of the Strategic Air Command and the vast complex of missiles that the Americans are building up are not substantial enough to deter the Russians, we have had it. Surely what we ought to do is to plan our defence policy not on the basis that we are going to die but on the basis that we are going to live, and that we are going to live in a world in which the vital British interest of law and order will be maintained, and that we shall have conventional forces of sufficient mobility and the right balance to carry out the political decisions of the Government.
  Arguments are carried on here about the British Army of the Rhine as though it was something which had been cooked up by my right hon. Friends. Of course it was not; it was a commitment which a Conservative Administration entered into. I was against it, but once an obligation is entered into, irrespective of which party enters into it, it is our duty to see that its implications are carried out. The problem should be put fairly and squarely to the country, but that is not done. I am not blaming the editor of the Evening News—this is the fault of the Ministry of Defence's Press relations. They told them to get this in.
  This is not the only example, for a week ago we had a Panorama broadcast on the state of the Army. I listened to it and to my astonishment found that it picked out in terms of wastage one of the best units. It gave the wastage figures for the R.E.s as 10 per cent., but

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  it is not 10 per cent. but 15·8 per cent., and the worst is the Pioneer Corps, which is nearly 40 per cent. There was a programme called "Tonight" about missiles which was 50 per cent. inaccurate. We can go on to case after case in the Press, the B.B.C. and I.T.V. and find that it is the same story. The facts about defence are concealed.
  I am all for freedom of opinion, but I believe that in all these great instruments which instruct the public the one thing which matters above all is factual integrity. If any hon. Member has the skill to draft a Bill which would require those organs in relation to our survival to observe factual integrity and, if they did not, to be called before the courts because the facts were violated, I should hold up my hands in support. We have a gigantic bill of £1,838 million. The Minister of Defence knows that it is not enough and that it will have to go higher if the demands implicit in this White Paper are to be fully met and met against the time scale. I am sure the Minister would not deny that all the pressures are in terms of higher expenditure, not lower. I do not believe that we can get the people of the country to face these facts unless they are told the truth.
  I went to the Vassal Tribunal. There was a classic example in the first few days of the kind of Press we have in this country. There was the Observer, a very exalted paper, with a private line to heaven. The membership of its editorial board is of such god-like people that their religions are chosen for them, and sometimes their race. For example, on a major issue of defence the paper's correspondent—a sailor of great distinction who has been decorated, and I acknowledge his prowess and gallantry—had to admit that on this major story one aspect had been pinched from the defence correspondent of the Daily Herald. I freely admit that one cannot go lower than that. [Laughter.] Oh, yes, this is the truth. The second had been pinched from the Evening News, which is second on the list. The third had come from the Daily Express, and the Daily Express had admitted that it was pinched from three other sources.
  When asked if he checked, he said that he did not check for it was enough for him that the stories be used had not
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  been denied. That is not because the Press comprises wicked men or that those who control the B.B.C. and I.T.V. programmes are wicked, but because there has grown up in the Ministry of Defence and the Service Departments the strongest public relations organisation which gives guidance, and more than guidance—it twists arms sometimes—and the victims are, first, the British public, and the House of Commons ought to know better. Secondly, the victims are the Armed Forces of the Crown. In the few months left to him in office, I wish the Minister of Defence well. I think his proposals about reorganisation of the Ministry should be looked at with care. I hope that he will bring a White Paper to the House giving details and will give us an opportunity to thrash out the whole matter.
  I wish that in the few months he will take his courage in both hands and start to put this horrible mess right, because it is a horrible mess. I admit that as to conscription this is water that has gone over the wheel. The public conscience in this matter has now been lulled into the belief that conscription has to go. I shall not reopen the argument, but now that he is in sight of getting rid of it he has to carry out reorganisation of the Army and a realignment of our commitments so that our obligations shall match our resources. If he does not do that, even though there are a few months left, those months may bring catastrophe, a catastrophe which I am sure the House would wish to avoid asking the Armed Forces to bear.
  6.16 p.m.
  Mr. Nigel Birch: The House may be startled to know that, according to my calculations, there are still 295 days before next Christmas. We have made a slow start in this debate. The hon. Member for Dudley (Mr. Wigg) is extremely well-informed. He would, I am sure, make an admirable assistant to the Adjutant-General—he probably is one. He always gives the classic argument which leads inevitably to the conclusion that we ought to have selective service, but then bounces off.
  Mr. Wigg: If the right hon. Member thinks that, may I be allowed to say that I have said in our party meeting, I have said in this House and say it again, that I believe that selective service is

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  absolutely essential. Is that good enough for him?
  Mr. Birch: I am grateful to the hon. Member and accept that from him.
  I do not complain about the form of the White Paper. I think that in the present state of the debate in N.A.T.O. any new initiative would be out of place, but, if I were to produce a White Paper like this I think I should have had the photographs printed in colour. One thing I do wish to complain about is that my right hon. Friend introduced extremely important proposals for the re-organisation of defence at the end of a 40 minute speech. If precedent is any guide, these things ought to be introduced either after a Report by an independent body or after a White Paper issued by the Government. I should much prefer to see that because one of the things which the Minister ought to pick up are the reactions of the House to his plans and if he does not give time for consideration he will not get valuable reactions.
  I want to say a certain amount about reorganisation. The reason we have gone wrong in this country is not so much in the organisation of our defence as in the background thinking, not only of both parties, but of the country as a whole. There is so much atavism about it, so many submerged thoughts and so many things in our subconscious which we have not brought out that it is very difficult for us to make the correct decision which we ought to make. It is not at all unnatural that that should be so if we think of the extraordinary pace of events since the war.
  America and Russia have become super Powers and have presented us with a change of scale such as that which faced Holland after the Treaty of Utrecht in 1714, and there have been great changes in the Commonwealth. The Commonwealth was always a very doubtful military asset, but now, with so much of it composed of neutralist republics often not working in favour of our defence and foreign policy, I think it constitutes a grave political risk. Then there is the rise of Europe, the ambitions of de Gaulle, the pace of scientific advance in defence and the expenditure on research. Expenditure on research has been accelerating and not decelerating 17 years
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  after the war. This is apt to leave people a little breathless.
  No one can know all the answers and no one pretends to. A really professional know-all like the hon. Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey) pretends to know, but the rest of us do not. We must get our basic thinking up to date and, to do this, there is one method we might employ. We should take a leaf out of the American experience and use academic and scientific brain power—outside the Civil Service and the Armed Forces—more than we do at present. If one thinks about it, it is sometimes a little frightening to realise the tremendous decisions on which the senior scientific adviser to the Minister of Defence must advise. It is a tremendous super-structure to raise on the body of a single zoologist, and I hardly think that that is altogether desirable.
  Anyone who has been to the Pentagon, or has even looked at the car park there, will know that the Americans are not at all short of staff officers. Yet they have farmed out a great deal of their fundamental thinking to bodies and institutions outside the Government service. For example, the best known one is the "Rand Project" which was started more than 10 years ago and which does a lot of basic thinking for the Air Force. Then there is the centre of Naval analysis, the Research Analysis Corporation, which looks after the Army, and the Institute of Defence Analysis which looks after the overall defence thinking.
  These are non-profit-making bodies staffed largely by academic types and scientists who keep in the closest touch with the universities. They have put to them problems of analysis involving scientific and other questions and, apart from that, they do all sorts of other pertinent research; and they come up with the answers. They also produce papers on their own in which they try to sell, so to speak, their ideas to the American Government. That Government is not bound to accept those ideas, but there is a lot in this, for the simple reason that most civil servants and practically all Service men in staff jobs are cumbered about with too many files. One cannot really do any basic thinking if one is passing files around all day long. One needs to have the ideas fed in from outside.

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  There is another important advantage. If we could do something which would enable us to farm out some of our thinking, help might be forthcoming in another respect, for it is difficult to keep the Government and Opposition in some sort of touch on defence matters. It is worth remembering that Lord Balfour did a great deal of work before the First World War in the old Imperial Defence Committee. My right hon. Friend the Member for Woodford (Sir W. Churchill) also did a lot of work on radar when out of office by means of a subcommittee of the Imperial Defence Committee.
  I consider that some of the more interesting papers should be circulated to, say, the Leader of the Opposition, his shadow Foreign Secretary and shadow Defence Minister. In this connection, another aspect might help us, as it helps in America. The sort of dons who man these American organisations very much like writing papers, and they can write admirable ones without containing classified information. Such papers help to form that consensus of opinion from outside which can help politicians to pursue sensible policies.
  We must get our basic thinking right. That brings me to the important question of my right hon. Friend's actual reforms. I congratulate him on having made a break through. A great many of his predecessors have tried to do this, but he has got away with it. He appears to have done it with the agreement or understanding of his colleagues and, I think, with the agreement of the Service Ministries. Something may flow from that but I do not think that we want to assume that his proposals will necessarily stop all the quarrelling between the Services. If one wants to stop three barrow boys quarrelling one will not necessarily do it by moving their barrows on to the same pitch. Perhaps "quarrelling" is rather a pejorative word. There are, always have been and always will be, legitimate differences between the Services and, at that level, they have political implications. It is essential, therefore, if decisions are to be decided aright, that those differences should be clearly brought out and not fudged.
  For example, after the First World War the Army and the Navy made a
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  determined effort to sever the infant body of the Air Force. Had the Air Force not had a very able Chief of Air Staff and an efficient Secretary of State the Army and the Navy might have succeeded. What would have happened I do not know; but it might have resulted in our losing the war. It is all the more important, therefore, that these decisions should not be fudged.
  That brings me to some other suggestions I should like to make concerning the reforms. It is exceptionally important to remember that now my right hon. Friend has decided to move all the chiefs of staff into one building, he should endeavour to get rid of the supremo; the Chief of the Defence Staff. I say that for two reasons. The first is because this is a job where Buggins's turn becomes an iron law. On the question of Buggins, he is bound to be a very senior officer, indeed, and there is bound to be a virement between the three Services. Any one can tell who is going to be the new supremo, but I will not mention any names. So one is stuck with a man who has not necessarily spent his life thinking about strategic problems. The Government have a very limited choice indeed, and there is a temptation for the Minister of Defence to deal with the other Services through the supremo.
  What happens is that the issue gets fudged because he tends to produce the lowest common denominator of agreement. I believe that when the Minister of Defence deals with the three chiefs of staff in his own Department the Chief of the Defence Staff becomes a fourth wheel on his tricycle. He had better, therefore, deal with the three chiefs of staff directly.
  There should be a much stronger military secretariat in the Ministry of Defence, as there used to be in the old Imperial Defence Committee. When I was a boy at school my father was the Master General of the Ordnance engaged in getting through a reform about the second, third and fourth line repair of motor vehicles. There were letters in The Times and meetings of the Cabinet about it. He told me later that he would not have got it through without a certain Major Ismay. That Major Ismay, of course, went on from the early 'twenties until the end of the last war with great distinction.

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  The Ministry of Defence, to get an adequate secretariat, could choose men from the Services at any rank and, when a good one was found, he could be kept for life. Such are the people the Ministry wants in Whitehall; people who will know their way about and who will have the confidence of the Services and the confidence of politicians of all parties. This would provide a better link between the Minister and the various Service advisers than a supremo.
  I have done, and many other hon. Members want to speak. I have suggested more disembodied thinking, the abolition of the Chief of the Defence Staff, and a stronger secretariat. I hope that my right hon. Friend will meditate upon these suggestions.
  6.30 p.m.
  Mr. E. Shinwell: The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Flint, West (Mr. Birch) has suggested to hon. Members that we should indulge in some rethinking on defence, yet it will be noted that the only contribution he made was the suggestion—an amazing one in the circumstances—that we should adopt the American system and bring from outside to supervise our defence organisation and decide our defence policy some industrial tycoons, or it may be those who on previous occasions served the Government in Service Departments but thereafter departed to take their place in industry.
  If that is the kind of thinking we are to indulge in, the Minister of Defence will find himself unemployed, and presumably Lord Lennox-Boyd or Lord Chandos, having experimented in industry, will be transferred to the Government to undertake the task of supervising our defence. That is no contribution to our defence organisation. It is a reductio ad absurdum, and I would suggest to the right hon. Gentleman that if he had come to that conclusion before he became Secretary of State for Air some years ago he would not have occupied that position.
  I want to pose a simple question to the House. Do we want any defence at all? Apart from a very small minority, some in this assembly and some in the country, the answer to that question is in the affirmative. We require a measure of defence in order to maintain our security, and we require it because it happens to be
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  traditional. The question we have to consider is what kind of defence. What form should it take? Should it take the form of a contribution to what is described as the nuclear deterrent, or should it take the form of building up our conventional forces and weapons? That dispute has characterised our debates on defence for many years past.
  Members of the Government and their supporters, with some exceptions, take the line that this country must have an independent nuclear deterrent. On the other hand, my hon. Friends—though there may be some exceptions—hold the view that an independent nuclear deterrent has no validity in the existing circumstances or in circumstances which are foreseeable. That is the dispute between us. I know that it is impossible to convince the Government that their view about the independent nuclear deterrent is wrong, but I would beg them to understand that a very large and growing section of the community is coming to the conclusion that this country cannot afford an independent nuclear deterrent, and that, even if it could afford it, it would be unnecessary and undesirable to have one.
  I should like to quote from sources which I think would be acceptable to hon. Members. The first quotation is from a leading article in The Times which, dealing with the so-called White Paper, expresses a view about the proposal to adopt the Polaris submarine in due course when it should arrive.
  It says:
  "There is good reason to believe that the cost to Britain of building and keeping a fleet of Polaris submarines has never been fully assessed, and that it may yet prove to be more than the country can afford."
  It goes on to say:
  "If, as a result of the American initiative, some form of nuclear deterrent under an effective allied control begins to take shape, the British Government may decide that nuclear independence is, after all, an expensive luxury."
  This is not a contribution from hon. Members on this side of the House. It is a contribution from a reputable newspaper, no doubt subscribed to by its very able defence correspondent. It is undoubtedly a contribution which the Government cannot ignore. I agree that what it says is based on the assumption that the American initiative about the nuclear deterrent will be acceptable, but

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  whether that will be so I am unable to say.
  I submit another quotation from an ex-military source which is bound to be acceptable to the House, because it is a statement in a letter by Marshal of the Royal Air Force Sir John Slessor. He says, among other things, that in this country
  "… we cling to the myth of an Independent British Nuclear Deterrent …"
  He describes it as a myth, and I observe that the right hon. and gallant Member for Norwood (Sir J. Smyth) yesterday, in his able contribution dealing primarily with conventional forces, seemed to throw cold water on the independent nuclear deterrent. I am not sure whether I describe his point of view accurately, but so it seemed to me. And, of course, we have had contributions from the benches opposite in previous defence debates which indicate that there is not complete unanimity on that side of the House on the need for such a deterrent.
  Sir J. Smyth: I should like to correct the right hon. Gentleman. I am in favour of an independent nuclear deterrent. I did not deal with it in my speech yesterday because I was confining that speech to another subject.
  Mr. Shinwell: I am sorry if I have misunderstood the right hon. and gallant Gentleman, but that is what it appeared to be to me. It seemed to me to be an oblique reference to the undesirability of indulging in excessive expenditure on a nuclear deterrent of an independent character instead of devoting more of our expenditure to the building up of our conventional forces.
  I want to deal with conventional forces, because there is no use arguing with the Government about the independent nuclear deterrent. They have made up their minds, and only time will tell whether it has any validity at all. Perhaps in ten years' time we shall discover whether the Russians have been deterred from making a violent assault on this country because we possess 200 V-bombers, which will be obsolescent in the course of a few years, or because we are in possession of Polaris submarines. We cannot say. If, however, it should happen that for some reason the Russians mount an assault on this country using nuclear weapons, obviously we shall be
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  wiped out and nothing more need be said about it.
  I turn to the subject of conventional weapons and, in so doing, I will indulge in repetition, of which we have had plenty during the debate. My repetition takes the form of referring to the position of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation. Only the other week I asked the Minister of Defence a Question about the contribution made by the French in conventional forces to the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation. The right hon. Gentleman's Answer, which is contained in the columns of the OFFICIAL REPORT, was to the effect that this information was confidential. I can, however, furnish the right hon. Gentleman with references by several of his predecessors to the actual numerical strength of our contribution to N.A.T.O. Indeed, it has been referred to during this debate. Figures of 50,000 and 55,000 have been bandied about indicating the strength of our conventional land forces in the European arena.
  I presume that one of the reasons, if not the principal reason, why the right hon. Gentleman refused to disclose the facts about the French contribution to N.A.T.O. was not because it was confidential but because it was inadvisable—
  Mr. Frank Tomney: It was non-existent.
  Mr. Shinwell:—to demonstrate to the House that the French had, in fact, made no contribution in conventional forces to N.A.T.O. ever since it was formed, except on paper. I make that challenge to the right hon. Gentleman.
  Therefore, when we debate the strength of N.A.T.O.—and reference has been made to the N.A.T.O. alliance by the Front Bench on this side as well as on the Government side, and by back benchers on both sides—I think that the time has come when the House must address itself to the facts and not allow itself to be fobbed off by statements about the strength of N.A.T.O.—a strength which does not really exist—or allow itself to be fooled by answers to questions which are unsatisfactory for the reason that security might be infringed. I shall be pleased to hear at the end of this debate that I am proved wrong about the French contribution, but my experience of the French goes back some time.

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  I remember when I was Minister of Defence having to negotiate with M. Pleven, who was Minister of Defence and subsequently became Prime Minister, and also with M. Jules Moch, on the subject of the French contribution. Frequently, they gave their assurance that they would make a contribution—first, of fifteen divisions, then ten divisions and then five. There were variations because of their difficulties in Indo-China, and later they had their difficulties about Algeria. On no single occasion, however, have they made an actual contribution in the sense in which we talk about a contribution to the conventional strength of N.A.T.O. What the French have done as regards an air contribution I am unable to say, but, no doubt, the Minister of Defence will be able to tell us.
  It may be asked what this has to do with the subject of defence. My answer is that it has a
  great deal to do with the question: first, whether we should build up our conventional forces; secondly, whether we increase the number of our land forces in the European theatre; and, thirdly, whether we should retain any troops there at all.
  I should like to bring to my aid the opinion of somebody who, I think everybody would agree, is a military expert. I refer to Field Marshal Montgomery. [Interruption.] I expected derision when Field Marshal Montgomery's name was mentioned, but he was a great fighting soldier. He was something more—he was Chief of the Imperial General Staff. If Field Marshal Montgomery had not been in possession of the administrative ability and the strategic knowledge which some people now deny him, obviously he should never have been transferred to the War Office and elevated to the position of Chief of the Imperial General Staff.
  What did Field Marshal Montgomery say in an article which he wrote recently in the Sunday Times? I shall not quote the whole of it, because I do not want to occupy too much time. In any event, I can represent the Field Marshal's viewpoint in almost a sentence. He said:
  "The sooner we reduce our forces in Germany and bring the bulk back to Britain, the better—financially, and in all other respects."
  That is the Field Marshal's view. He said a great deal more, fortifying and reinforcing the view to which I have just
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  referred. But he is not the only one who holds that view.
  I want to express my opinion. Of course, I am not a military expert like the Field Marshal—nothing like it—but when I read the other day that the Government were proposing to withdraw a brigade group from Germany, I was very glad to hear it. Why do I say that? All this talk about building up forces and the number of men we require to provide a balanced force is quite beside the point. The fact is that there would be advantage in withdrawing some of our land forces from Germany or wherever they may be in the European theatre so as to create a better balance of forces.
  I understand that there are difficulties about technicians, signallers and those associated with communications. If we withdraw some of our forces, it is possible for us by adjustment—and that, of course, is a matter for the technicians, the people at the War Office and elsewhere—to create a better balance of forces. The right balance of forces, even if they are much reduced in numbers, is far more satisfactory and makes the strength of the forces much more adequate than large numbers of men scattered over Germany.
  Sir Arthur Vere Harvey: While I agree with what the right hon. Gentleman is saying, may I ask him to explain why his Front Bench always asks the Government to get more British troops into Germany?
  Mr. Shinwell: I do not believe that that is the view of my Front Bench or of hon. Members on this side. They have not asked for increased numbers of men. They have criticised the Government for presenting the numbers in many variations; the recruiting figures go up and down and there is talk about the "Ever-readies" and the strength of the reserves. We have rightly criticised the Government for their failures in this respect, but we have never demanded that there should be more than 50,000 or 55,000 men, which was our commitment to the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation.
  My view—I put it in the strongest and firmest fashion I can, and I should like an answer to this—is that unless it is possible for the Government to demontrate that the French, the Belgians, the Dutch and the Scandinavian countries

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  which are associated with N.A.T.O. are making an effective contribution in ground forces, they have no right to demand from us that we should continue our commitment.
  I should like to say a word about this commitment, because I had something to do with it. It is true that in 1955 Mr. Anthony Eden, as he then was, agreed that we should make a commitment of four divisions to N.A.T.O. Loose language was used, but that commitment was to continue until the end of the century. When we were in office, we agreed, in the course of the suggestion made by the Americans and by the Supreme Commander who was appointed in 1951, to have two divisions in Germany. Subsequently, because of tension, it was decided to increase the numbers and a commitment was entered into by the Conservative Government under Mr. Anthony Eden in 1955. It never has been understood in the strict sense, however, that that commitment meant that our forces were to remain there all the time and that we could never withdraw them. We were entitled to withdraw as many as we liked if the circumstances demanded it. I hope that is clearly understood. Unless it can be demonstrated that the other countries associated with N.A.T.O. are making their contribution, we should refuse to continue with our contribution until they do or withdraw our troops.
  It may be said that that would mean the smash-up of N.A.T.O. altogether. I should like to say to the right hon. Gentleman—and I say it to my own Front Bench and to hon. Members on both sides of the House—the more this debate has gone on—I have listened very carefully to most of it, except the speech of the Secretary of State for War last night, which I read this morning and which I should like to refer to in a moment—the more I have come to the conclusion, very reluctantly, that a proposition to create a Committee of Defence in this House would be a very sensible proposition indeed.
  What have we had in this debate? We have had allegations from this side, replies from the other side; suggestions about the inability of the Government to provide the necessary equipment, and denials from the Government. We are spending a lot of money on defence. Let
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  me put it in the correct fashion—we are spending a lot of money in order to promote defence. Whether we have actually got it we do not really know. The Government say that we have; hon. Members on this side doubt it; even hon. Members opposite are sceptical about it. It seems to me that the time is arriving when it might be desirable to create a Committee of Defence, not consisting exclusively of Privy Councillors, but of hon. Members who have interested themselves in the subject of defence, bringing them together, not for the purpose of being subordinate to the Minister of Defence or to the Service Ministers, but for the purpose of interrogating behind closed doors the Minister of Defence and ascertaining the facts. On the basis of those facts it would be possible to engage in a more satisfactory debate.
  No one will regard this as a satisfactory debate. I venture the opinion that at the end of this two-day debate hon. Members, if they are true to themselves, will have come to the conclusion, not because of my contribution, that the facts are still unknown and the Government's case still unproven. Therefore, the time has come to consider it. If I am told that it is no use making propositions of this kind if nothing comes of them, I would draw attention to the next matter to which I wish to devote a little time, and that is the subject of the reorganisation of defence.
  I read the speech of the Secretary of State for War this morning. I was really shocked when I read that one of the reasons why we were annoyed, or appeared to be annoyed, at the right hon. Gentleman's statement to us yesterday on his proposals for a reform of the defence organisation was because we were jealous. The Secretary of State for War—he is not here at the moment, and I would prefer to say it to his face—was very childish to indulge in observations of that kind.
  When I was Minister of Defence—and I only say that for the purpose of the argument—I was very conscious of the fact that the system was most unsatisfactory—in fact, I knew it when I was at the War Office—we were able to promote the utmost co-operation because there was good will between the Minister of Defence and his three Service colleagues and I was able to initiate a

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  regular system of meetings bringing in the three Service Ministers, with junior Ministers occasionally and the First. Second and Fourth Sea Lords—the Fourth Sea Lord was very often Lord Mountbatten sitting at the end of the table and listening to the rest of them—and the other members of the Service Department. They were regular meetings with an agenda discussing all sorts of matters, affecting not one Service but all of them. It was because of that that we were able to carry on fairly effectively. There was very little criticism of the Ministry of Defence at that time, nor has there been very much since as far as I know.
  I want to make certain suggestions to the right hon. Gentleman. He came here yesterday and said, "I am trying to collect the voices; I want to know what you think and I shall produce a White Paper and come along with my proposals". I will tell him what I think he ought to do. Unless there is centralised control over every aspect of finance relating to defence it will not be effective. He will meet with no success. I know what the system is. When Estimates are being prepared the various Departments make their submissions and the totals come before the Minister of Defence. He looks at them, he consults the Treasury, and then he probably has a word with the Prime Minister. Then he says, "We will cut this out, cut that out and cut something else out". It is done in that rule of thumb fashion without regard to the needs of the whole of the Services and without regard to the strategic needs of defence.
  I recall an incident that occurred when the Labour Government of 1950 decided to have a three years' programme, because it was the Labour Government which initiated the three-year programme idea on defence expenditure. We initiated the programme of £3,700 million covering the three-year period and then the Korean War came along and we had to increase it to a larger sum. What did we do. We asked the Chiefs of Staff and the Service Ministers to prepare on the basis of calculated risks what they thought was necessary financially, and along they came with a demand for £6,000 million—just like that.
  I am recalling facts. I am not violating the Official Secrets Act—at least I think not. Perhaps it is just as well
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  that this should be told. It might help the right hon. Gentleman. He might meet with a similar experience. I looked at the list and at the demands made by the War Office. Having been at the War Office, I knew something about the game it played, and I struck out this and that because I knew that it had far more of the equipment it was demanding than it could ever use. That is a rule of thumb method and a most unsatisfactory method of dealing with it. I repeat that the essential prerequisite of sound defence organisation of a unified character is that we have complete and centralised control over finance. That is the first thing. The second is this. I beg the Minister not to soft-pedal about this business and not to pull his punches. I can understand the heartburning of the various Service Ministers. They will perhaps be relegated to Ministers of State or perhaps Parliamentary Secretaries, but I hope not Parliamentary Secretaries. First let us change the nomenclature. Let us not have "a First Lord of the Admiralty". Get rid of that stupid tradition; there is no need for it. "Secretary to the Navy" would be all right, the assistant to the Minister of Defence in charge of the Naval establishments and administration associated with the Navy. He would have nothing to do with strategy. Strategy is not for him. Strategy is for the Minister of Defence in consultation with his chiefs of staff. I shall come to the matter of Supremo in a moment.
  As regards the Army, I think that the time has arrived—I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will do it very soon—to abandon the title "Chief of the Imperial General Sstaff". There is no such thing as an Imperial General Staff anyway. Chief of Staff or Chief of the General Staff—something like that—would do perfectly well. The Secretary of State for War should be Secretary for the Army. Again, the Secretary of State for Air should be not Secretary of State but Secretary for Air. They should be colleagues of the Minister of Defence, subordinated to him, carrying out his instructions and in complete and frequent consultation with him on all matters relating to the defence system.
  As regards day-to-day administration, I would go so far as to use the illustration of what is often said by Ministers when

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  questioned about the nationalised industries. They say that we must not ask questions about day-to-day administration but we may ask questions about general policy. The Minister is responsible for general policy, and his subordinates—I prefer to speak of his assistants, since I prefer that name to the other—are responsible for day-to-day administration.
  I come now to the question of the Supremo. I heard what the right hon. Member for Flint, West said. He does no want a Supremo, though whether this is because he dislikes Lord Mountbatten or not, I do not know. I do not care very much for the gentleman myself. In any case, I say frankly that I do not think that he is of much value to the Minister of Defence. Every time I open a newspaper, I notice that he is going off on a trip somewhere, to South America, to Greece, to Brazil or wherever it may be, no doubt at considerable expense. What it all has to do with defence I do not know. Usually, he is going on a good will mission. If someone is required to go on a good will mission, why not pick on one of the civil Ministers or ask some Members of the House to go? We should be only too glad to go. Why Lord Mountbatten?
  Although I understand that Lord Mountbatten is alleged to be responsible for initiating the idea of reorganisation, I hope that, if we are to have a Supremo, the right hon. Gentleman will manage without Lord Mountbatten. I disagree with the right hon. Member for Flint, East. I think that the Minister is bound to have somebody in addition to the Chiefs of Staff; he must have a chief military adviser. It is for him to decide who it should be.
  A great deal more could be said on this subject, but I think that the Minister of Defence understands that this is a revolutionary step, and, moreover, unless it is a revolutionary step, it will be ineffective. There must be a unified command. There must be unification as regards strategy and as regards expenditure. Ordinary administration can be left to his military assistants.
  I trust that the Minister will not imagine that this is an original idea. Time and again, I have asked Questions
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  in the House about it. In almost every defence debate, as others have done, I have argued the case for more centralisation. I do not use the term "integration" because I do not think that it really applies. What I want is effective coordination, co-ordination as regards hospitals, catering arrangements, contracting, the purchase of equipment and stores. I want these things to be done not by the three different Departments but by one.
  Last but not least, if the Admiralty plays any tricks, stop it. For instance, the Admiralty will say that it must conduct its own research. That is what it does now. Even when research was transferred to the Ministry of Supply, the Admiralty insisted on conducting its own research. The remarkable thing about the Admiralty is that it hardly ever asks for anything. It gets it without asking. This is traditional. Of course, the Navy is the silent Service. I know very well what is done. Naval people are excellent from the military point of view. They are splendid, gallant, brave, courageous—I give them all those qualities—but they know what they are about.
  The right hon. Gentleman should get rid of the Board of Admiralty. It is no use. A Secretary to the Navy, with, perhaps, an assistant and a chief of staff on the naval side will be quite enough without the Board of Admiralty. We do not want the First Sea Lord, the Second Sea Lord, the Third Sea Lord and the Fourth Sea Lord. In fact, I think that we have a Fifth and Sixth. We do not want them.
  The same applies to the Army Council. I used to be a member of it. Believe me—it does not make any difference. Things will go on just as well without the Army Council sitting round a table and talking, very often about nothing, or trying to work up something to talk about. The same goes for the Air Council. Get rid of all these silly fripperies. I call them frivolities. If the right hon. Gentleman wants to conduct the defence of this country properly, let him be realistic about it.
  I welcome what the right hon. Gentleman has done. I welcome his initiative, but I warn him that, if he does not come forward with something really substantial, we shall criticise him even more strongly than we have done in the past.
  7.5 p.m.
  Colonel Sir Tufton Beamish: Whether one agrees or disagrees with the speeches of the right hon. Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell) the hors-d'oeuvre which he offers to the House is always interesting and tasty; it has something sweet and something sour in it, something meaty and something fishy. I shall not comment at length about his very interesting speech, but one thing he said completely confused me. It seemed to be a crashing non sequitur when he said that, because some of our allies in N.A.T.O. were not, in his opinion, contributing as much as they should to the Western Alliance, then this country, in face of the Soviet threat, should further weaken N.A.T.O. by threatening to withdraw all its forces as well. From an ex-Minister of Defence, that must take first prize. Although I shall not comment further on the right hon. Gentleman's speech, I shall give him an honourable mention later in what I have to say, and I hope that he will be here to hear it.
  The Opposition Amendment amounts to a Motion of censure. For any Opposition to censure the Government implies the existence of an agreed constructive alternative policy. If the censure is purely negative, it loses most, if not all, of its value. It is my object to consider whether the Opposition have an agreed alternative policy and whether that policy, if any, is constructive or not. I shall examine the Opposition's policy in one particular respect as closely as they have been, all yesterday and today, examining our policies. I am sure that they will not mind.
  On this side of the House, there are, of course, wide differences of opinion about important aspects of our defence policy. It is natural that this should be so. If we find it difficult to agree about what sort of rifle would be right for the British Army, then, for heaven's sake, is it not natural that we should have different views about whether Skybolt or Polaris is the right strategic nuclear deterrent? However, in spite of these differences of opinion, the party is, with very few exceptions indeed, united about Britain's proper rôle as a major contributor to the free world's defences.
  Yesterday, the Minister of Defence drew attention to what he referred to as sincere differences between the two
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  sides, and he said—this is my paraphrase—that this was no bad thing. With great respect to my right hon. Friend, I think it most unfortunate that such a fundamental difference should now be exposed between the two sides of the House. I have myself always favoured a bipartisan approach to defence questions, and I shall always do so; but there is no point in deluding ourselves that common ground exists between the two sides of the House if, in fact, it does not.
  As has been made perfectly clear yesterday and today, there is a fundamental difference of approach between the two parties to the question of the British nuclear deterrent. Yesterday, the hon. Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey) described the British nuclear deterrent as a "will-o'-the-wisp" and as a "fiction". One cannot go further than that. In my opinion—I have no shadow of doubt about it at all—the British nuclear deterrent is highly credible in the Kremlin's eyes.
  A year or so ago, my right hon. Friend the Minister of Aviation—I think I recall it aright—said that the weight of bombs or, should I say, the destructive effect of the British deterrent was equivalent to 29 million heavy bombers of the last war. That was a year ago, and it is more now.
  Mr. Gordon Walker: On a first strike.
  Sir T. Beamish: On a first strike, yes. Therefore, in my opinion, the British deterrent weapon is highly credible in the eyes of the Kremlin. I am strongly in favour of retaining and improving it.
  Mr. Gordon Walker: Does not the hon. and gallant Gentleman realise that it is not possible to have a first-strike deterrent? The deterrent presupposes that one strikes second in order to deter the attacker.
  Sir T. Beamish: I do not agree. The point of deterrence is to stop the enemy from attacking at all. If one uses the deterrent it has failed. If the right hon. Gentleman does not know that, he does not know anything at all. I am therefore strongly in favour of it in principle and I greatly regret that the political structure does not exist in Europe to enable us to have a genuine multilateral nuclear force. The sooner that that structure can be created, the happier I shall be.

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  There is this fundamental difference in the approach of the two parties. The Socialist Party has now made it absolutely clear, although it did not do so before, that it is opposed to Britain retaining the strategic deterrent at all. This is correct, is it not? The Opposition, I understand—I do not want to do them any injustice—make a sharp difference between the tactical nuclear deterrent and the strategic nuclear deterrent. That is right, too, I am sure. They say that we should retain the tactical nuclear weapons which are integrated in N.A.T.O. That includes Sergeant, which, from memory, has, I think, a range of about 400 or 500 miles.
  Mr. G. Brown: Have we got Sergeant?
  Sir T. Beamish: Sergeant is integrated in N.A.T.O and no doubt will form part of Britain's forces one of these days. Pershing is coming along. This is a tactical nuclear weapon.
  Mr. Brown: We have not got that, either.
  Sir T. Beamish: We have long-range tactical nuclear weapons which are integrated with N.A.T.O.'s forces. The right hon. Member for Belper (Mr. G. Brown) knows that that is so.
  Mr. Brown: Since the hon. and gallant Gentleman is being tough on us, may we have his own facts right? He referred to us having Sergeant. We have no such weapon. He said that Pershing was coming along. There is no proposal that we should have it. The hon. and gallant Gentleman is assuming things that we have not got.
  Sir T. Beamish: In that case, I should like to know what are the tactical nuclear weapons to be withdrawn from the front line, according to the hon. Member for Leeds, East. Is he talking about Davy Crockett, which has a range of 2,000 or 3,000 yards? How far will that be withdrawn so that it can be used if required?
  Mr. Brown: We have not that either.
  Sir T. Beamish: What was the point of saying that Britain's tactical nuclear weapons integrated with N.A.T.O. should be withdrawn from the front line? What
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  was the Opposition Front Bench spokesman saying? Apparently nothing.
  The point is established that the Opposition are in favour of keeping tactical nuclear weapons with N.A.T.O. Never mind who has what weapons, they are to be retained, and therefore the Opposition make a sharp distinction between tactical and strategic weapons. They think that it is morally and militarily correct that tactical weapons should be kept with N.A.T.O.'s forces on the ground in Europe. On the other hand, they apparently think it morally and militarily wrong that we should have strategic weapons.
  Mr. Gordon Walker: Nor morally.
  Sir T. Beamish: I am glad to hear that. It therefore seems that it is the distance which the weapon travels before it hits the ground which makes the difference between whether we should have it or not.
  I turn to the strategic nuclear weapons. Apparently, they are all to be disposed of. The guided missile launching ships would be disposed of by the party opposite if it were in power. The whole V-bomber force, we were told yesterday, would be assigned to N.A.T.O. I do not know whether it would be given or sold to N.A.T.O., but it would be assigned to N.A.T.O. The hon. Member for Leeds, East said that he was in favour of a "tremendous reduction in the Royal Air Force," yet he wishes to assign the whole V-bomber force to N.A.T.O. I could not make much sense of that. If the party opposite were in power, what would we do with our stocks of A and H bombs? What would we do with Blue Steel and with the promised nuclear guided bomb for the TSR2? What would we do with the TSR2 itself and with the Polaris order? We have not been told these things.
  I calculate that if we have spent about 10 per cent. of our defence budget on the nuclear aspect of our defence forces the cost of the nuclear deterrent has been well over £2,000 million. We know that it was the party opposite which decided to make the A-bomb, although it was frightened to tell the House and the country about it. It was the party opposite which gave its blessing to the manufacture of the H-bomb. If these

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  policies are to make sense to the country, we should be told whether, when the strategic nuclear deterrent is scrapped, we shall sell it or give it away. We have not been told this and therefore the Opposition's policies do not make sense to me. The Opposition are flatly and officially in favour of scrapping the nuclear deterrent. If it were in power, I understand that this country would not possess, manufacture or test nuclear weapons. I want to get that absolutely clear. Is that right?
  The next point that I raise arises from something which the right hon. Member for Smethwick (Mr. Gordon Walker) said. I think that I took his words down correctly. He said that we could "rely wholly on the United States to protect us against nuclear blackmail". I am glad to hear that he believes that to be the case, but, if that is so, I should like to know whether he agrees with the views of next year's chairman of the Labour Party, the hon. Member for Rossendale (Mr. Greenwood), who was kind enough to tell me that he could not be in his place today. He said in December, 1960:
  "We have got to break away from nuclear strategy, get rid of all nuclear bases in this country, and start a new approach to the whole problem of foreign policy."
  He said the same thing in 1962. He had previously said that he was a lifelong unilateralist and was the first Member of Parliament to walk round the West End carrying a sandwich board.
  Does this represent the Opposition's policy? If so, how does it square with what we were told by the hon. Member for Leeds, East yesterday when he said:
  "Until disarmament is achieved our national survival depends on cur membership of N.A.T.O."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 4th March, 1963; Vol. 673, c. 57.]
  Apparently we are to be loyal members of N.A.T.O.: by telling America to quit all her bases in Britain. Is that right? I want to know from the right hon. Gentleman who will wind up the debate whether that is right. Are we to be loyal members of N.A.T.O. by asking the United States to quit all her bases in Britain?
  Mr. Gordon Walker: No.
  Sir T. Beamish: If I have done nothing else, I have at least elicited that from the shadow Foreign Secretary. I am glad to hear it because I am a great believer
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  in the bipartisan approach to these questions. That is good.
  When the hon. Member for Leeds, East moved away from this subject, he touched on the question of nuclear-free zones and, although he did not use the word, went on to what is commonly called disengagement.
  Mr. J. J. Mendelson: Is not the real issue whether the Government or the hon. and gallant Gentleman contemplate any situation in which Her Majesty's Government would take the decision to use nuclear arms without the agreement of the United States and the other members of N.A.T.O.?
  Sir T. Beamish: I am glad to answer that. That question has been fully explained so often in the House that I am surprised to hear it asked again. Speaking for myself, I have not the slightest doubt that, with the present American Administration, we can rely wholly on America. But I do not know what the next Administration will be like. I do not know whether the United States will be tired of Europe and her problems and the failure to unite, or tired of the French Government's attitude. I do not know whether there will be an isolationist Government in America next time. It is perfectly possible, but highly improbable.
  However, even if that did not happen, what matters, if peace is to be preserved, is whether the British nuclear deterrent is credible in Soviet eyes and whether the Soviet Union is certain now and will be certain in the future that the United States would regard as vital something which Europe regarded as vital. If the Kremlin had doubt about that, it would obviously be in the best interests of peace that Britain should have the deterrent. That was clearly recognised by President Kennedy, who was quoted today by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Aviation.
  Mr. John Morris rose—
  Sir T. Beamish: I am sorry, but time is getting on. I do not want to give way again. I must have prolonged my speech by more than five minutes already by giving way to interesting interruptions.
  It has been suggested by hon. Members opposite that the cure all for the world's problems and the cold war is some form

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  of disengagement—it is often stated by the bon. Member for Leeds, East—and that these areas could be in the Far East, the Middle East and Europe. Although the hon. Gentleman did not mention it in his speech yesterday, perhaps the Labour Party may be going back to the idea of the non-nuclear club which was rejected absolutely by Earl Alexander of Hillsborough in another place in 1959 as being a completely impracticable suggestion. Proposals of this sort mean nothing at all unless the Soviet Union is willing to accept a substantial measure of international control and inspection—and that it has consistently, over the years, refused to accept.
  A few days ago Mr. Khrushchev'g speech to his electors was published in the Daily Mail. I wonder how much the Soviet Embassy paid for these two pages. How nice it would be if Pravda would publish my election address. In that speech Mr. Khrushchev said that it must not be assumed that because the Soviet Union was willing to take two or three black boxes it would for one moment agree to what he described as "N.A.T.O. reconnaissance" of the Warsaw countries or "espionage". He himself used those words.
  People must be clear that this idea is a real will-o'-the-wisp, a smoke-screen put up by the Opposition to pretend that the problems of the world and the cold war can be solved by nuclear-free zones.
  Could there be a nuclear-free zone in the Far East? Is China likely to be willing to have the Soviet-Chinese border, or North Korea, or Tibet, or North Vietnam inspected? Is this serious, practical politics? Really, it just does not make sense.
  I want to quote some pronouncements made by the Opposition on the subject of the nuclear deterrent. I do not want to put words into the mouths of other people and that is why I am anxious to refer to them. I regret that there are so many of them but only the first one is a little long. I want to start with 1955. This statement was contained in "Labour's View: The Bomb." It was a resolution adopted by the National Executive Committee at its meeting on 30th March, 1955, and circulated as a party election pamphlet that year—and
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  very useful it was to us on this side of the House. It said:
  "Until world disarmament can be achieved weapons of mass destruction in the hands of Britain and her allies in N.A.T.O. form the most effective deterrent against aggression by a potential disturber of the peace possessing not only these weapons but also overwhelming force in what are called conventional weapons … Labour believes that it is undesirable that Britain should be dependent on another country for this vital weapon. If we were, our influence for peace would be lessened in the counsels of the world. It was for this reason that the Labour Government decided on the manufacture of the atom bomb, and that we support the production of the hydrogen bomb in this country."
  On 4th March, 1958 the right hon. Member for Easington—here conies his honourable mention—in a letter to The Times said:
  "… I am only too well aware that our contribution to the deterrent is a modest one, but to refuse to make a contribution would lose us the friendship of the United Sates, destroy N.A.T.O., and leave us at the mercy of the Kremlin …".
  I also quote the late Mr. Aneurin Bevan in an interview with Mr. William Clark in AT.V.'s "Right to Reply" on 11th May, 1959:
  "… What I have said is this, that we cannot deliver up the bomb ourselves on moral grounds and yet rely upon our Allies possessing it because that would be sheltering behind their guilt."
  That is the answer to the moral argument.
  On the 10th February, 1960, the hon. Member for Leeds, East who was then shadow Foreign Secretary—I see that as shadow Minister of Defence he is not now in his place; I am sorry that he is not, for I thought we would have seen him here—said:
  "I confess that the great majority of us still consider that it would be unwise for Britain to deprive herself of atomic weapons without the guarantee that the atomic arms race can be stopped at this point."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 10th February, 1960; Vol. 617, c. 489.]
  What guarantee have we got that if we deprived ourselves now of the weapons the arms race could be "stopped at this point"? Is there any guarantee? As far as I know, there is none whatever. But six months later the hon. Gentleman in a speech at Lincoln on the 19th September, 1960, somersaulted and said:
  "Britain should cease producing her own atomic weapons and should no longer have her own H-bomb."

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  But that was contradicted five months later by the hon. Member for Swindon (Mr. F. Noel-Baker) on his return from an East-West conference in Warsaw. He told the Yorkshire Post on 8th February, 1961:
  "Unilateral disarmament is a frivolous irrelevancy."
  It was even more flatly contradicted less than 12 months ago by Earl Alexander of Hillsborough, when he said that he would like to have the deterrent bomb held as long as possible. He made that statement in another place as recently as 21st March last. He is the defence spokeman of the party opposite in another place. All these contradictions take a lot of explaining.
  The new Leader of the Opposition, in the debate on the Nassau Agreement on 31st January last, said:
  "Britain should cease to attempt to remain an independent nuclear Power."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 31st January, 1963; Vol. 670, c. 1242.]
  I think that I may have found some explanation for all this. Perhaps it was given by the right hon. Gentleman the new Leader of the Opposition himself in an article in the Daily Herald on 28th October, 1960. I am indebted to a Liberal Party pamphlet for this quotation. The right hon. Gentleman said:
  "It is essential to put Socialist foreign policy first and defence second … we must resist the present excessive and perilous dependence on a N.A.T.O. H-bomb strategy."
  Perhaps that is the explanation. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman was giving the real reason for the new swerve to the Left we have all noticed. Does the Opposition's present attitude arise because it considers the British deterrent no longer credible—why offer it to N.A.T.O. if it is not? The right hon. Member for Smethwick has described our V-bomber force as "powerful and becoming obsolescent". So it is not because it is no longer credible that the Opposition are against it. Nor is it because it is too expensive, because the right hon. Member for Smethwick said not long ago that our expenditure on the retention of nuclear weapons represented a very considerable sum of money which would be better spent on other branches of defence. He added that we could not have defence on the cheap and that equipping our conventional forces would be very
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  expensive. Thus it is not on grounds of expense, on the ground that we cannot afford 7 per cent. of the gross national product, that the party opposite is now opposed to the nuclear deterrent. The right hon. Gentleman himself said in an intervention a few minutes ago that it is not because they regard the bomb as immoral. Mr. Bevan confirmed that, and I have quoted him. It is never immoral to be ready to defend yourself if attacked and thus to maintain the peace.
  Nor is it to stop other countries getting the bomb, which some people have suggested was the reason for the non-nuclear club. That was swiftly disposed of by the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman) when he said that "the only non-nuclear club which could mean anything would be one which everyone joined, including the two giants". For once in my life I found myself in complete agreement with the hon. Member.
  The simple truth is that in order to conceal the fact that they are rent from top to bottom on this greatest of all defence issues, the Opposition must swerve violently from right to left and from left to right in order to try to hide their total lack of policy and, furthermore, to try to present the facade of a united party to the British public. But the facade is transparent and everyone can tell that the Socialist Party has no constructive defence policy, nor are any of the fundamentals agreed. Behind the facade, cousins and brothers, speaking totally different languages, are squabbling fiercely about whether Britain should have a share in the free world's nuclear deterrent power.
  It would indeed be a disaster for the British people if the party opposite, which openly admits that the defence of the country is less important than the conduct of Socialist foreign policy and less important than maintaining the fiction of party unity, were ever to be entrusted with the reins of power. The right hon. Member for Smethwick would no doubt describe his party's policy in words which he used three times today—"getting the principles and priorities right". In moving their censure Amendment today, the Opposition have been guilty of an incredible piece of cheek, and I do not think that the Amendment is worth the paper it is written on.
  7.31 p.m.
  Mr. Dick Taverne: There were a number of fairly astonishing statements in the speech of the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Lewes (Sir T. Beamish). He regarded it as something heinous that someone should put foreign policy as something which should be considered first and defence as something which should be considered second.
  Sir T. Beamish: Socialist foreign policy.
  Mr. Gordon Walker: What about Tory foreign policy?
  Mr. Taverne: Foreign policy is something which must be considered first, because one of the greatest follies which can possibly be committed is to consider defence in isolation, without considering the implications which defence has for foreign policy and foreign policy has for defence. In the course of the same sentence, the hon. and gallant Gentleman said that somehow or other a statement in a journal that one's policy should be to lessen the dependence of N.A.T.O. on nuclear weapons was a sign of a swing to the Left. It has been a remarkable swing to the Left, particularly noticeable in the pronouncement by the American Secretary of Defence, Mr. McNamara, who has been stressing all the time that one thing which N.A.T.O. needs is lesser dependence on nuclear weapons and a greater number of options, as my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Stechford (Mr. Roy Jenkins) said in his excellent speech yesterday.
  That was not the only astonishing statement in that speech. The hon. and gallant Member talks about a first strike deterrent, whereas all the other arguments which have been advanced in the House for Britain's independent nuclear deterrents have been that Britain must have something to strike back if there is any threat of a nuclear attack or if there is any nuclear attack by the Russians. The hon. and gallant Member has not understood the arguments advanced from his own side and which have been that Britain's nuclear forces must be retaliatory nuclear forces. What the hon. and gallant Gentleman has been doing is resurrecting the discredited doctrine of 1957 of massive retaliation for conventional attack.
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  He completely confused the position about tactical weapons in N.A.T.O. He said that we wanted to withdraw them from the front line.
  Sir T. Beamish: The hon. Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey) said that.
  Mr. Taverne: He said that somehow or other we accepted the fact that we had these tactical weapons, because we wanted to withdraw them from the front line, and he thought that there was something inconsistent in saying that Britain should not have its independent nuclear deterrent and saying that it should withdraw its tactical weapons from the front line. What he failed to realise was that the tactical nuclear weapons are integrated into N.A.T.O. and are not part of the independent British nuclear deterrent in any event.
  He seemed to regard the statement by the Opposition that they would assign the H-bomber force to N.A.T.O. as some startling departure, whereas it is part of the Nassau Agreement and precisely the one thing on which there is a certain measure of agreement between the Government and the Opposition. He went on to ask my right hon. Friend the Member for Belper (Mr. G. Brown) whether he was a unilateralist. This was just one of the many ways which seemed to suggest that the hon. and gallant Gentleman had not been following defence developments or policy statements from either side of the House with as great an interest as he might have shown.
  I wish to turn to the organisation of N.A.T.O. and, in particular, to the latest American proposals. I do not wish to consider these themselves. The position to some extent is slightly confused, and every day one hears new reports and new explanations of precisely what proposals have been put forward for the manner of control, and exactly what a multinational or multilateral force is to mean. I confess that I am somewhat bewildered by the various permutations of whether it is to be ten-nation control or five-nation control with more fingers on the safety catch and what kind of American veto, if any, should be retained, and so on.
  It is perhaps rather more profitable than examining some of these permutations to look at what it is the Americans are trying to do, what is the situation which they are trying to remedy and how it has come about. The aim of the American

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  change of policy toward N.A.T.O. is directed towards stopping the emerging of more independent nuclear Powers in Europe and, in particular, to stop the emergence of an independent German nuclear power in addition to those which already exist in Britain and France. Why is there this gradual process of more and more nations of Europe wishing to develop into independent nuclear Powers? We have to recognise the fact that this trend exists and that there is a certain logic about it.
  There are four reasons—I would not say that they were exhaustive—for this trend. The first is the increasing nuclear parity between the United States and Russia. Both the United States and Russia are becoming more and more invulnerable to the kind of first-strike attack which the hon. and gallant Member for Lewes envisaged. The position has now arrived when neither can destroy the other without disaster to himself. It is a position in which we should rejoice, for it means that not even the most reckless general would intentionally start any nuclear conflict. All the time, the whole process is to push back the moment when any decision has to be made in order to make such a decision less likely.
  While this is a welcome trend, it means that there are increasing suspicions inside Europe about whether America would take the decision to use nuclear weapons unless its own safety and survival were threatened. We would be making a mistake if we thought that only de Gaulle reasoned on these lines, of if we thought that in Germany only Strauss reasoned on these lines. Hon. Members opposite have advanced a number of arguments of precisely the same kind, and if they are the sort of arguments which appeal to hon. Members opposite, they are also the sort of arguments which appeal to various people in Germany and elsewhere in Europe. If the United States becomes less likely to act, then the fear arises whether a greater temptation does not exist for some sort of show of force or some sort of threat from Russia if America is not likely to intervene.
  The second reason is the existence of more H-bomb Powers themselves. This point has been developed many times by hon. Gentlemen on this side. There is no particular reason why
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  Germany should accept inferiority of status to either France or to Britain. But another reason which perhaps has not been sufficiently explored is that as there are now two more Powers which are independent nuclear Powers, the danger to the Americans increases of them being somehow or other involved against their will by a unilateral act on the part of one of these independent nuclear Powers.
  Once again this is something which would seem to make the Americans more likely to draw back. Once again the very fact that the Americans may be less willing to be involved may increase the fears in Europe, which once again is part of the logical trend leading more and more nations to look towards the setting up of their own independent nuclear forces.
  The third reason is the weakness of the conventional forces of N.A.T.O., a weakness which not only my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition was seeking to avoid when he wrote his article in 1960 but, as I have observed, a weakness which the Americans above all have been determined to try to remedy. In fact, this was a direct result of the strategy of N.A.T.O. and of this country in 1953 and the rest of the 'fifties. If there is such a great weakness in N.A.T.O. that N.A.T.O. is not a force which can resist, by conventional means, even a local coup de main of some strength, then naturally the tendency to rely on nuclear deterrents becomes greater.
  Many hon. Gentlemen opposite have seemed to suggest that they belong to the "all-or-nothing" school, that either one faces a complete holocaust or one cannot resist; that there is no point whatsoever in strengthening the conventional forces in Europe, because if they are engaged automatically a nuclear conflict would result. I submit that this is a dangerous policy and it is the very fact of the weakness of our conventional forces which makes hon. Gentlemen opposite take that view, which makes other Powers take that view, which makes other Powers look towards an independent nuclear deterrent of their own against the background of the parity of the forces of Russia and the United States. Hon. Gentlemen opposite are in danger of falling into the trap which the Americans are

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  trying to avoid, that of having only two choices—utter humiliation or utter destruction. The maximisation of choice is as important to N.A.T.O. as a whole and to this country as it is to the Americans.
  The fourth reason for this pressure, this trend towards the creation of independent nuclear forces on the part of various powers in Europe, is the complexities of N.A.T.O. planning. The planning of the strategy and the sharing of control in N.A.T.O. is something which presents the most formidable difficulties. What is it that we are now being asked to share? We are being asked to share manning of the weapons, but this, of course, is no substitute for a share in the decisions. This is no substitute for the sort of worries, the sort of fears, which I have outlined. All that it might produce is confusion at operational level.
  Is there to be sharing in the strategic planning of N.A.T.O.? If there is, this is something to be welcomed, something which is eminently sensible, but this in itself again cannot be any substitute for this desire on the part of many countries in Europe who want to take an independent decision because the Americans may not wish to be involved.
  Mr. Anthony Kershaw: The hon. Gentleman is basing his argument on the fact that there are a number of countries in Europe which are striving towards the independent nuclear deterrent. In fact, is there any country but France which has said anything of the sort? Is it not the fact that they have all said exactly the opposite?
  Mr. Taverne: I ask the hon. Gentleman to consider why it is that the Americans have changed their policy towards N.A.T.O. I ask him to bear in mind this fact, that the reason for this change is that the Americans have become more and more aware of the logic of de Gaulle's position if something is not done to divert this into other means. There have been forces in Germany which have been calling for a greater share in the decision, forces in Germany which, if the present trend goes on, may well be directed towards the idea of an independent deterrent either shared with France or one of their own.
  There is an increasing wish to take part in the decision. The difficulties about
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  the decisions are perfectly clear. First, there is not at the moment the consensus on any sort of unified policy. Secondly, it is extremely unlikely that the Americans will ever relinquish their veto, and if more vetoes are to be imposed, the N.A.T.O. deterrent becomes less credible, and if it becomes less credible it becomes less of a deterrent, and it becomes doubtful what any country has to gain from relying on the N.A.T.O. deterrent rather than a simple United States guarantee.
  Above all, these difficulties of consensus and reaching any kind of agreement on planning or any other level are increased by the weakness once again of the conventional forces in Europe. The weaker the conventional forces of N.A.T.O. in Europe, the more the contingencies that arise on which some sort of decision would have to be reached in principle to use non-conventional forces, and the more contingencies which have to be met, the more difficult it is to reach agreement about the kind of action which has to be taken.
  All these forces, the greater nuclear parity of the United States and Russia, the very fact that there are now more independent nuclear Powers, the weakness of our coventional forces, and the complexities of decision-sharing in N.A.T.O., have tended in the same direction to reinforce this logic of events which I think has led us all to underestimate the force of de Gaulleism in Europe. I think that we dismiss de Gaulle too lightly. We think that de Gaulle and the French take one attitude, and the rest of Europe a different one.
  We may turn out to be wrong about this. There is a certain logic about de Gaulle's position which has its attraction to other Powers. It has its attraction to hon. Gentlemen opposite, and unless we divert this tendency we shall get a proliferation of independent nuclear Powers. The moral of this, as far as Britain is concerned, is plain. It all points in the same direction, which is that we can help to some extent to divert this trend if we concentrate on our conventional forces and suspend striving towards nuclear status.
  On a number of occasions hon. Gentleman opposite have asked how we are going to strengthen our conventional forces. They have also on a number of occasions said that abandoning

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  the nuclear deterrent would not make any difference to the expense. Hon. Gentlemen opposite cannot have it both ways. If we save money on the nuclear deterrent and still spend the same amount, then additional amounts will be available for improving the quality of our conventional forces. This would not only be a more effective contribution towards N.A.T.O.; it would not only be more effective from a military point of view; but, as defence is so closely linked to disarmament, it would increase the opportunities for an effective policy towards disarmament, and I am glad that my right hon. Friend the Member for Smethwick made this point this afternoon.
  If we have stronger non-nuclear forces, stronger conventional forces, in Western Europe, the chances of some sort of limited disarmament zone will be infinitely increased. Part of the objection so far has been that of the West, that we would be in a position of weakness because we have no conventional forces which would be of any use whatsoever if they were deprived of the nuclear umbrella. And even if it did not make military sense—and it does—to concentrate on conventional forces, it would still be worth while making some small sacrifice to our defence position if the prospects for disarmament were improved. In the long run the only safeguard is some sort of agreement on disarmament—an agreement that can be extended.
  There are three main objectives for which we should strive. We should, first, aim at some sort of agreement on arms control; secondly, a stronger and more effective N.A.T.O., through a more effective conventional contribution, and, thirdly, an end to the risks of the proliferation of nuclear weapons. I have sat through almost the whole of this two-day debate, and I have not heard one hon. Member opposite who, at any stage, has seemed to be aware of the danger in the proliferation of these weapons. The Minister of Defence has at no time mentioned it, or considered it as a problem. The Americans recognise it as a problem, although it apparently completely escapes the minds of those in charge of our defence.
  I urge upon the House the fact that it is one of the most difficult problems which the West has to face, because the
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  more of these independent forces that come into existence the more remote becomes the chance of a unified Western defence policy, and the more any chance of a disarmament agreement recedes into the distance.
  7.51 p.m.
  Sir Fitzroy Maclean: The hon. Member for Lincoln (Mr. Taverne) has given a very interesting analysis of certain aspects of the defence situation. He did not—and I do not know why he should—put forward anything that one could call a policy on behalf of his party, any more than any other hon. Members opposite have done today. It seems to have taken the Opposition Front Bench the best part of six years to discover that there was anything wrong with the Government's defence policy, and it now seems as though they will take another six years working out a policy of their own. I can only say that I hope they will have at least as long as that in which to do so. If there has not been a plethora of statements on policy from the benches opposite—except for the right hon. Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell), who seems to have worked out a policy with his former Chief of the Imperial General Staff which bears very little relation to anything at all—neither does there seem to me to have been anything that one could really call a statement of defence policy from the Government.
  I will not say that I did not like the White Paper. Like my right hon. Friend the Member for Flint, West (Mr. Birch), I liked the photographs. They reflect the high standards of feminine beauty held by the Secretary of State for War. But I could not help being disappointed, not so much by the lack of any statement of policy in the White Paper—because there is a reason for that—but by the lack of a statement of policy from any of my right hon. Friends who have so far spoken from the Front Bench. That disappoints me very much, because it had seemed to me, during the last month or two, that there were some slight signs—some straws in the wind—to indicate that under the pressure of events, or perhaps under pressure from their allies, the Government were veering in the direction of a defence policy which would bear slightly more relation to reality than the

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  one that they have been pursuing up till now.
  First, the Nassau Agreement seemed to me to clear up a number of issues and to provide a number of pointers. There were those who regretted the passing of Skybolt. I have not been able to sympathise with them. Mr. McNamara, who, after all ordered the thing—or anyhow counter-ordered it—and presumably knows what he is talking about, called it a high-cost, low voltage piece of hardware for which there was no need, and I am prepared to accept his view on that.
  As for Polaris, at first sight it seems to the layman to have certain advantages. I live near the Holy Loch, and I like other hon. Members have visited Polaris submarines and have been impressed when I have been told that they are invulnerable second-strike weapons which, if there were such a thing, as the right hon. Gentleman pointed out, could be made into first-strike weapons. But there is little point in hon. Members discussing these technical issue, of which we can understand nothing.
  I sympathise with my hon. Friend the Member for Dorset, North (Sir Richard Glyn), who said yesterday that when he visited these submarines he saw
  "a multitude of dials, switches and levers in every corridor, reaching shoulder high, and it all involves the most intricate electronics."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 4th March, 1963; Vol. 673, c. 87.]
  That is the impression that I get even when I look at a simple household gadget, such as a washing machine or a television set, so why should I, or most other hon. Members, lay down the law on the question whether Skybolt or Polaris is better one than the other?
  What should now be clear, even to the layman—and what the events leading up to the Bahamas meetings made abundantly clear—is that the development of a credible independent nuclear deterrent, and, in particular, the development of a delivery system, is economically beyond this country, and that henceforth, if we are to remain a nuclear power we must depend on the Americans to provide us with the end-product of costly processes of trial and error which we cannot possibly afford. In the circumstances, to claim that for very much longer we shall have an independent deterrent, in the
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  ordinary sense of the word "independent", seems highly unrealistic. It seems equally unrealistic to envisage the use of such a deterrent independently of the Americans. I cannot say that I was convinced otherwise by the example given by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for War.
  It seems to me that any deterrent that we have must be considered in the context of the Alliance. Being old-fashioned, I think it would be very nice if this country had a deterrent of the size of the American and Russian deterrents rolled into one, but anybody who compares relative expenditures—we spend about £180 million and the Americans spend about £5,000 million on the deterrent—will understand that this is not possible. What makes much more sense is that we should contribute to the best of our ability to an Atlantic deterrent—if the Government like to call it an independent contribution, good luck to them. That would give us some measure of control in its use and also, with any luck, help to prevent proliferation. I hope that that is the idea behind the Nassau Agreement.
  It is an undisputed fact that we have nuclear weapons, and we should exploit that fact. We should use our possession of nuclear weapons to arrive at an arrangement with the United States for their joint control—an arrangement which might serve as a model to other countries in Europe, and might show them that nuclear independence is not the only criterion for a say in world affairs. It seems to me that the whole thing is largely a question of emphasis and of defining the meaning of the word "independent", and so on. The thing for us to do now is not so much to stress independence as interdependence. I think it was the hon. Member for Sheffield, Park (Mr. Mulley) who quoted the 1958 White Paper in this context. I will not repeat what the hon. Gentleman quoted, but I wish to refer to another sentence in which it states that the members of the Alliance must accept that inevitably they will become more and more inextricably dependent on each other. It seems to me that that is something the Government should accept more than they do, as it is one of the more sensible things in an otherwise rather foolish White Paper. Not only should they accept it, they should rejoice in it.

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  From our point of view, it is a good thing that there should be this interdependence. It means not only that we should depend on America but that the Americans should come to depend upon us. We should take over indispensable functions in the Alliance, particularly functions in the conventional field. The Americans should have bases here and we, possibly, have bases in America. We should share our knowhow and, in the words of the 1958 White Paper, we should become inextricably involved one with the other. That would be a much better way to avoid being left out in the cold than simply rattling borrowed rockets or envisaging the possibility of blackmailing our best friends.
  Surely Cuba illustrated that and at the same time illustrated that the rôle of the conventional deterrent is every bit as important as the rôle of the nuclear deterrent. In all this we ought also to remember that at the present time there is an American Administration more European-minded and, I would say, more pro-British than any previous American Administration. It is bending over backwards to help us—not always with very happy results. But, whatever the result, that Administration is doing its best.
  We should also remember that in the course of time the Americans may become tired of keeping 400,000 men in Europe to defend a Europe which at times seems very little inclined to defend itself. I was deeply shocked by the reactions in this country to the Skybolt episode and to the suggestion that we had in any way been let down by our American allies. We must remember that if for any reason the Anglo-American alliance disintegrated it would be the beginning of the end for the free world as a whole. Any dissensions in the alliance can benefit only the Russians—and the Chinese, though they have their troubles too.
  In all this we must be careful not to sacrifice the substance for the shadow. We are told that Nassau enabled us to retain our membership of the nuclear club. I am in favour of retaining our membership, provided that we can afford the subscription. It is often said that our possession of nuclear weapons—we possess 3 per cent. or 4 per cent. of the Western deterrent as against 96 per cent. or 97 per cent. held by the Americans—gives us a say in the councils of the nations. What would give us a much
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  greater say and much more influence both within the alliance and outside, and what would provide us with a much more real and true independence, would be the possession of adequate properly equipped and properly balanced conventional forces.
  I hope it is not the case, and I should like to be re-assured on the point—perhaps the Minister of Defence may say a word about this—but I am afraid that the cost of the development contemplated under the Nassau Agreement, if proceeded with, may involve still further cuts in our already inadequate conventional strength. It is bound to be a choice. That is a choice with which the Ministry of Defence should be familiar, if he thinks back to his much quoted speech of January, 1958, in which he spoke of matching missile with missile and anti-missile with anti-missile. I only hope that, faced with the choice, my right hon. Friend makes the right selection. Otherwise it would indeed be sacrificing substance for shadow.
  Recent events have shown all too clearly how dangerously denuded we are. Our feeble example in Europe, our refusal to fulfil our N.A.T.O. obligations, our refusal to share with our allies the burden of conscription, has not been without its effect. One could say, "What about the French?" It is true that the French have done even worse. But it is no more justification for us to allude to that than it would have been justification for us to say in 1940, "The French have collapsed and we have every moral justification for collapsing too." We do not necessarily take our lead from the French.
  Overseas the Government have tried feverishly to cut our commitments in order to match our reduced forces. My right hon. Friend the Minister of Aviation has played his part in both processes; first at the War Office in cutting the size of the Army, and secondly, and rather less successfully, at the Colonial Office in trying to cut our commitments. In fact, with weakened defences trouble crops up not less but more all over the world. At present our forces everywhere are under strength and overstretched. Now it appears that, despite the frantic demands of the Commander-in-Chief on the spot, we cannot even send a brigade to reinforce our base in South-East Asia without denuding this country and our forces in Germany. Units involved are known—it is public knowledge—to be grossly

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  under strength. There are infantry battalions of 300 to 400 men, and if a Gurkha Signals Squadron is sent out to South-East Asia one cannot be sent to B.A.O.R.
  I see one slight encouragement in the contents of the White Paper although I should never have thought that I would derive consolation from such a thing. It is the reference to the return to the 1959 target of 180,000 men for the Army. All one can say about it is that 180,000 is better than 165,000. I have never been among those who said that the Government would not reach their target of 165,000 or thereabouts. I have too much faith not so much in the Government as in the Government actuaries who first fixed this figure. What still shocks me, and always has shocked me, is the way in which, instead of deciding how many troops they need and then taking steps to get the troops, the Government first see how many troops they can get and then either cut our commitments or stretch our forces by spreading the butter very thinly in order to make them fit.
  The Minister of Aviation said in the course of his speech that a Government cannot gamble with the safety of the nation and the people. It seems that so far as the Army is concerned the Government have been doing exactly that for the last six years. They have been gambling with our national security. First, in 1957, there was the famous streamlined nuclear force of 165,000 men which the Prime Minister said at the time could only be reduced to that number because of our dependence on nuclear weapons. It was followed in 1959, when recruiting seemed to be going a bit better, by the figure of 180,000 or 182,000 as the target. It was followed in 1960, when recruiting did not seem to be going quite so well, by the figure of 165,000. It was then that my right hon. Friend the Member for Woking (Mr. Watkinson) said that the Army might want more but they would have to manage with 165,000.
  It was followed late last year by triumphant announcements that the Army looked like getting the figure which was first set, 165,000. The note of triumph did not correspond to the tremendous certainty that it would get that figure which had been expressed earlier. Now
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  that recruiting once again is going better than was expected—I congratulate my right hon. Friend on the undoubted success he has had in this field and I hope it keeps up—we are again told that it is to be 180,000. That I welcome, because if it does not do anything else, it will at least make unnecessary any further disbandments and amalgamations which so many soldiers so badly dreaded. It is said that that figure was arrived at after dinner at Chequers by the Prime Minister and the Chief of the Imperial General Staff, but I am informed that my right hon. Friend also played a part. As Dr. Johnson said "When a man is to be hanged it sharpens his wits tremendously." But let us have no illusions; 180,000 is still nothing like enough. The right figure is round about 200,000, which was arrived at more than six years ago by the present Chief of the Imperial General Staff in a previous incarnation.
  If it is argued that that figure is now out of, date, all I can say is that there is nothing to show that the commitments of our conventional forces have in any way been reduced since then. If anything, they have been increased, and since then the rest of the world—our American allies, in particular—have discarded as completely out of date the old Foster Dulles doctrine of "a bigger bang for a buck", massive retaliation and so on, and have come round very strongly to the need for a conventional option for a wider choice, as the President has put it,—"humiliation or all-out nuclear action." For that reason, all our allies, and pretty well all our opponents, have not weakened but greatly strengthened their conventional forces. Why Her Majesty's Government should still persist in clinging to this out-dated concept is more than I can fathom.
  A lot has been said on both sides of the House about mobility and increased striking power. That is largely a matter of armament and equipment. I only observe, supplementing what has been said by the hon. Member for Dudley (Mr. Wigg) and others, that what the White Paper has to say on this score is still largely in the future tense. I am all for mobility, and so is everyone, but the fact remains that it does not replace men on the ground. We are dealing with deterrents. B.A.O.R. is a deterrent; so is our garrison in Aden or in Singapore.

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  Just as one hopes that the hydrogen bomb will never be used, so one hopes that our conventional forces will never be used. What is important is their presence and credibility.
  There is no doubt that an unacclimatised stage army shifted about the world in commando carriers and transport aircraft, if we happen to have them, after the event, is not the same thing as men on the ground on the spot before the trouble starts. That is the real deterrent. What has to be remembered about the Strategic Reserve, which was amply illustrated a month or so ago over South-East Asia, is that nobody can be in two places at once, not even the Minister of Defence with his three new hats.
  If we want to make a reality of the alliance and play our proper part in it, if we want to avoid the hot war and win the cold war, if we want to have a real say in world affairs and real independence, we must be able to make a proper contribution to N.A.T.O. We must have sufficient, properly balanced, properly equipped conventional forces to perform the tasks they have to perform all over the world. That at the moment we have not got. The first task of the Government is to remedy that.
  8.18 p.m.
  Dr. Jeremy Bray: It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Bute and North Ayrshire (Sir F. Maclean). I do not think I have any criticism to offer on his speech except perhaps on his modesty about his ability to handle washing machines.
  There is a feeling outside the House—I put it no higher than a suspicion—that sometimes we do not know what we are talking about. I think it is nowhere more dangerous than in defence, and probably it is nowhere more true. The problems which are both technical and political are difficult enough, but they are inevitably shrouded in a certain amount of secrecy—far too much in my view. The right hon. Member for Flint, West (Mr. Birch) made an extremely interesting point in suggesting that there was a wide field of defence in which outside public discussion could play a most useful part in this country, as it certainly does in America.
  Perhaps because of this danger of ignorance, a number of hon. Members
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  on both sides were very glad to accept the invitation of the U.S. Navy to visit a Polaris submarine and to see the Polaris system a week ago. The hon. Members for Dorset, North (Sir Richard Glyn), Dorset, West (Mr. Wingfield Digby), and Bournemouth, West (Mr. Eden) were all members of that party. Quite clearly, their speeches were coloured by what they saw. I was rather appalled that the hon. Member for Bournemouth, West could say that his attitude in the recent kerfuffle over Skybolt was due to his ignorance about the Polaris system and the arrangements made concerning Polaris. It is extraordinary that a major crisis in the defence policy of this country could have resulted from the action of such ill-informed hon. Members as that.
  Certainly we all felt that Polaris is a formidable and efficient deterrent. My hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey) made the point that we should always consider the disarmament aspect of weapons systems, and I think that one of the merits of Polaris is that it is as easy to inspect as it is difficult to detect in operation. One cannot supply a Polaris submarine without a massive supply organisation which would be the easiest possible thing to bring within the scope of any disarmament inspection system.
  Technologically the submarine, and its incredible destructive "birds", as the Americans call them, is probably the most advanced engineering feat mankind has ever devised. I think that one can refer to the crews in the same high terms. The relaxation and easy discipline which members of the British forces sometimes find a little perplexing about the American forces tightens into the most cracking precision when any action is needed and there are no frills of etiquette to slow down the flow of information, command and response when a manoeuvre must be carried out. There is no hysteria or trace of bravado.
  We were told enough to satisfy ourselves that an accidental firing—whether due to the failure of the communications system, a technical failure in the submarine or a human failure on the part of the crew—is beyond the bounds of possibility—at least at the submarine end. I hope that the Prime Minister has checked at the White House end because

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  I am sure that he would find the President as forthcoming as the naval officers were in the submarine.
  This far, I think, I would not differ from hon. Members opposite who were on this visit; but I would not go any further. The Government have accepted arrangements for a small fleet of British Polaris submarines to provide an allegedly independent nuclear weapons system. As someone said to the aged Falstaff when he was lechering after Doll Tear-Sheet, "Is it not strange that desire should so many years outlive performance?". We are to have four or five Polaris submarines to cost more than £400 million. The missiles are to he made as part of the ordinary production run for American missiles. That is technically possible, but the submarines are to be built in Britain. The submarine and missile, however, is really a single system; so much so that the link between the missile and the submarine is called "an umbilical cord" which is severed only at the last minute.
  I have with me a list of major contractors in the Polaris system. There are 11,000 contractors altogether, but I wish to refer to the major ones. Four of these contractors only are connected with the building of the submarine. Six are connected with the missile, but there are 13 contractors—more than the submarine and the missile put together—concerned with the navigational, guidance and missile preparation system. Who is to provide these link systems? If we are to do so and they are to be made by British industry—as some hon. Members opposite have suggested—it would be extremely difficult and fabulously expensive and we should be committed to development costs probably near to about half of those the Americans themselves incurred in the development of the Polaris system.
  It certainly would not be very rewarding for British industry and technology to be aping the Americans with a lag of about seven years. I am sure that the Government will be forced into the position of getting all these systems direct from the Americans and that it will not simply be on a basis of purchasing the systems and then having nothing further to do with the American suppliers. As was said in the Bahamas communiqué, the systems will be supplied on a con-
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  tinuing basis. This mean a continuing supply of spares, access to modifications which must be expected if the system is to be maintained in working order and a continuing contact with the American manufacturers right through the whole range of the technologies involved.
  It can be done and I am sure that any British officers and engineers involved would find, as always, that it is a stimulating experience to work with the Americans. But in what sense can the resulting deterrent be called "independent"? In what sense can this massive interconnection with the American Service organisations and defence industry leave Britain with in any sense an independent deterrent? I cannot imagine that the Prime Minister at Nassau had any conception of the technology of the system he was talking about. Certainly the communiqué reads that way. Whenever there is a technical matter dealt with we read something like "The President says this" and the Prime Minister is listed as entering his reservations about the independent use of it.
  I was talking yesterday to an engineer in a British defence contracting firm which has had more than its fair share of knocks from the Government's defence policy. He gave it as his opinion that to continue the effort of maintaining an independent deterrent would reduce the British defence industries to the status of the industries in Switzerland.
  We cannot possibly survive by trying to devise whole systems or tagging after the Americans and trying to duplicate parts of their systems. Someone suggested that we should find a man like Admiral Rickover to take over the job of looking after the British Polaris fleet. We cannot do that because a man with any guts about him would not put himself into such an impossible position. A man of drive, energy and imagination needs to be given scope to work in a viable, practical, original system making a real contribution where he can call on the loyalty and tremendous efforts of a wide range of people throughout the Services and industry. That kind of effort cannot possibly come in today in support of a Polaris system after the kind of fiasco we had over Skybolt.
  Dr. Alan Thompson: If I may reinforce the point which my hon. Friend is making, I would

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  like to voice the concern shown by naval dockyards, including Rosyth in my constituency, on the question of whether they will have a share in the maintenance of Polaris submarines if there is diversion from conventional shipbuilding to the new forms proposed.
  Dr. Bray: I appreciate the argument that the independent deterrent gives one a voice in the affairs of the world, but clearly if we are to have that voice we must certainly make a contribution to the defensive systems of the West. We on this side of the House have emphasised, and I add my words to that emphasis, conventional defence and conventional forces, but I would also suggest that as long as there is a call for highly advanced and highly technologically developed working systems we should seek the kind of arrangements suggested by the hon. Member for Bute and North Ayrshire.
  I suggest that we put so many millions into a defence pool and that in turn we should have a part of the American defence system coming as contracts to this country. I suggest, for example, the navigational system for space launching, something which would take us right into the vanguard of technical progress and something to which British industry could make a series of vital contributions.
  We are told that the Americans will not accept any contribution that Britain might make because of the power of the American services and defence lobbies. I do no think that this is true. I do not think that anybody who says this appreciates the concern that exists in America about the fantastic suggestions of multilateral pools. The Americans would not ask us to supply an absolutely indispensable part of their defence system, but we could certainly supply an integral part—one of the divers possibilities which my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Stechford (Mr. Roy Jenkins) referred to yesterday as part of the defence outlook of the American Secretary of State for Defence, Mr. McNamara.
  Obviously we should also extend into areas like space-launched vehicles where it seems to me we are quite wrong in trying to uphold a wholly independent effort. If we do not learn the lessons and learn to contribute much more to the advanced aspects of modern industry
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  and engineering in the defence field, and if the Government will not back action, I am much afraid that the brightest British engineers will do so on their own. A number of British engineers are working in American missile firms today. I think that the inanities of the Lord President of the Council about the brain drain to the United States are totally ill-conceived. There is a tremendous stimulus to be gained by this kind of exchange, but for goodness' sake let the mutual exchange be put on a realistic basis so that it can contribute to the strength of the West and to the standing of this country.
  Perhaps the ultimate reason why we are in such a dreadful muddle and we are facing these inevitable dilemmas, which sooner or later will confront the Government when they realise that they do not have and cannot claim to have an independent deterrent, is that the technological and economic aspects of defence which have baffled them in the past 10 years can be solved only within the framework of a sane political defence policy. It was interesting to read the comments of the Minister of Defence on the reorganisation of the Government defence machine. There has been a great deal of discussion about the office of the Minister of Defence himself, but the Minister said yesterday:
  "The formulation of defence policy falls into two parts The first goes beyond defence proper. It is concerned with foreign policy … The second broad area, the area with which I am more closely concerned, deals with problems of a specifically military character.—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 4th March, 1963; Vol. 673, c. 37.]
  I hope that whoever replies to the debate will deal rather more fully with this first part—the formulation of defence policy in the full context of Government foreign and economic policy. There is obviously a problem of communication here between the forward planning efforts of the Foreign Office and the practical implementation of defence programmes. There is a vital need for bringing disarmament seriously into the centre of the Government defence planning machine in the way suggested by my right hon. Friend the Member for Smethwick (Mr. Gordon Walker). I hope that these forward-looking aspects of defence will at least find an echo in the replying speech from the Government Front

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  Bench which we have not been able to detect in the speeches so far.
  I refer, finally, to the electioneering defence speeches which we have heard from the benches opposite. I ask the House to consider whether it is entirely patriotic for the Government to ascribe to the party which commands the support of the greater part of the country, and the party which, in all probability—at least, in some possibility—will within a few months be asked to form the Government of the country, a defence policy which they know quite well to be utterly false. Is it right for them to misrepresent our defence policy in the way that they have done, knowing the kind of misconception that this breeds in Washington, Moscow and Paris? The Government and their back benchers should be a little more responsible in this matter.
  If hon. Members opposite behave in that kind of way, they will not merely provoke a reaction from the British public which will cost them dearly at the election, but they will also be undermining the country's standing before our allies in the Western Alliance.
  8.36 p.m.
  Miss Joan Vickers: I am glad of the opportunity to follow the hon. Member for Middlesbrough, West (Dr. Bray), but I hope that he will not mind if I do not discuss the details of his speech, since I have not had the same opportunity as the hon. Member of visiting a Polaris submarine. I hope, however, to refer to one of two of the points made by the hon. Member.
  Speaking in the House of Commons on defence matters is the only occasion when I feel like a woman Member of Parliament. Usually, of course, one likes to feel complete equality, but one cannot, of course, have had the same experience in these matters as many right hon. and hon. Members have had. Therefore, I speak as an amateur. One has to remember that up till 1914, the rôle of women was rather to watch and wait. Since then, however, as the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman) has reminded us, everybody has been in danger. No one is free from it, and it is for the Government to protect the people. That is what the House is today considering. The main
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  difficulty is the best method of doing it. We all realise that whatever Government are in power, it is their duty to protect the people. The disagreement concerns the methods by which this should be done. I hope that today some of these difficulties will be resolved.
  Much emphasis has been placed on conventional weapons. I should like to remind the House that in the 1914 war, conventional weapons inflicted great misery on the people of Belgium and Holland. They were equally as dangerous in their day as the present weapons are.
  What we are considering is how to keep the peace. Having listened to ail the speeches of the last two days, I have decided that, in view of the present circumstances, it is essential to keep a nuclear deterrent and that we should try to remain a nuclear Power. When I use the word "remain", I remind the House that we are not today changing our policy. We are changing only the types of weapon. If we are to have the nuclear weapon, as the sea represents one-seventh of the earth's surface. I should have thought that all our people would consider it desirable for us to have the Polaris submarine and that it would make us much less vulnerable.
  It has not been mentioned today that the Government's policy, as set out in the 1962 White Paper, laid stress in paragraph 10 on the fact that
  "The Government's object remains the achievement of general and complete international disarmament, to be attained by stages subject to effective control."
  It went on to say:
  "Nevertheless, no one who has really understood the significance of the advent of nuclear weapons can seriously propose that the elimination of nuclear weapons can be separated from conventional disarmament."
  The point to be remembered is that the two types of weapon must go hand in hand. To have one without the other might not lessen, but increase, the risk of large-scale conventional war, which appears less terrible only by comparison with nuclear war. Nuclear and conventional disarmament must therefore go hand in hand. I am quite certain that the Government are fulfilling in the many negotiations that are going on that pledge which they gave in the White Paper in 1962.

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  The main job of the Government at the present time is to keep the security of this country, to protect British territories, to fulfil our many treaty obligations, and finally to prevent war. No one has suggested during the debate that we should do away with all weapons. Everyone has recognised that we need some type of protection, and the only real point between us is, I think, the best method to provide this.
  I wonder how Service men would feel if they went into battle without the knowledge that they were fighting for a country which had the backing of nuclear arms. One remembers the use of gas in the First World War and the treaty that it would not be used, but the Germans did use it and we know the misery that was caused. We do not want to find ourselves in a similar kind of position.
  The debate has tended to concentrate on Europe, but I think that it is essential to remember the dangers of the Far East. China has been very successful in disrupting the economy of India. We are giving India about £7 million, and the fact that she has had to rearm is, of course, putting back the raising of the standard of living of her people. I should like to see China brought into discussions in the future. I know that up to the present she has been refused admittance to the United Nations, but surely it is not beyond our powers to bring China into some discussions, because I cannot see how we are ever to get disarmament if Russia and other countries are looking over their shoulders to see what is happening in China. Surely it is quite unrealistic to go on with various discussions and conferences if we are not to take possibly one of the largest nuclear Powers into consideration in these conferences.
  I welcome the statement which my right hon. Friend made about the reorganisation of the Service Departments. I gather that this was first suggested in 1958, but he has had the courage to bring it to fruition and I wish him every success. I presume that the Board of Admiralty and the Air and Army Councils will disappear, and I hope that he will give us some more information about that when he replies to the debate. If they are to be done away with, I should like to express great appreciation of the work done by the Board of Admiralty.
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  We were asked in my right hon. Friend's opening speech to consider the question of reorganisation and perhaps to make some suggestions. I hope that reorganisation will not stop at what I would call the office level. I hope that Coastal Command, R.A.F., will come under Navy command and that Transport Command will go over to the Army, so that they can have far more exercises together, and that the Estimates will be pooled in future so that they can be fluid according to the necessities of one Service.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Dorset, West (Mr. Wingfield Digby) mentioned the question of the Ministry of Public Building and Works taking over the work of the Service Departments. With the exception of housing, I think that this is a specialised type of work. If the work is to be taken over, I should much prefer to see it under the Ministry of Defence, but if it is to be taken over by another Department I hope that my right hon. Friend will see that the people transferred to that Department have real knowledge of the very specialised type of work needed both for the Army and the Navy.
  Now, a question about recruitment. If a man joins a Service in future, will it be possible for him to be transferred from one Service to another? Let us suppose that the Navy is 3 per cent. short of recruits and that the Army has more than enough. Can people be transferred, on either a permanent or a temporary basis, from one Service to another in the interests of the Services generally? I believe that this is unlikely, but I am sure that individual men would like an assurance about it. There has been talk of the building of new ships, but it is no good building new ships unless we can man them. It is for this reason that I make these few remarks about recruitment. One of the difficulties in recruiting is that there are not sufficient houses for the wives. As has been pointed out, men are getting married at 22 and girls at 21. As we have very few permanent bases overseas now, I hope that it will be possible to have more housing in this country.
  In view of the many changes coming about, is my right hon. Friend considering having a meeting of Commonwealth Defence Ministers in order to acquaint them of our changes and to find out what

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  the position is in the various Commonwealth countries? What will be the future of our bases? We know, for instance, that there have been tentative agreements in regard to Singapore, but we know, also, that there are troops tied down in Malacca which are only for use internally in the country. I should like there to be a meeting of Commonwealth Prime Ministers in order that full discussions could be had on what is to happen about our bases overseas. If we are to plan ahead, this is a very important matter to be borne in mind.
  Little has been said of the rôle of the Navy which, I believe, is becoming increasingly important. There is no new strategy for the Navy. Polaris is a weapon for general use. Therefore, the Navy will have to carry on with its normal work. We have been told that mobility is very important, and I mention again in this connection that we are likely to have few bases overseas. We are particularly short of aircraft carriers. These and commando carriers, I suggest, will be much more needed in future if we are to have local warfare such as we had in Brunei. We have the excellent "Tribal" class ships, the "Ashanti", the "Nubian" and the others coming along, but I think that the aircraft carrier is essential if the Navy is to fulfil even a peace-time rôle.
  This was stressed by that great expert the late Admiral Sir Charles Lamb when he said that, unless we find some entirely new strategy, we shall go on needing aircraft carriers. I see in the White Paper that the design for the next carrier, the "Victorious", is supposed to be well on the way, but I should like to know what the Minister's policy is to be in future.
  My object in speaking for the few minutes I have taken has been to put forward a few points which I regard as important. There are other matters, including civil defence, which I should like to have discussed, but, in view of the shortness of time, I have kept my remarks brief. I hope that my right hon. Friend will answer the few important questions I have put to him and will take it that he has my support in the reorganisation he is undertaking.
  8.50 p.m.
  Mr. George Brown: I do not know whether other hon. Members
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  who have sat through most of the debate, as I have, feel in the same way that I do, but I begin to sense a growing feeling of cynicism, if not boredom, with our defence debates. I have had this feeling during this debate, particularly in view of the empty benches which we have had for most of the time that it has been conducted. I do not think that the reason for this is to be found in the speeches of Members generally, although we have had at least one silly speech from the other side of the House this afternoon, and one or two which were irrelevant, and we have had the speech of the Minister of Aviation, which managed to be both.
  Broadly speaking, I do not think that that is the reason for this state of affairs. I think that it has to do with the attitude which Ministers are now uniformly adopting in defence debates. They come to the House and act and speak as though they are miming a charade instead of going through a serious debating exercise. One has the feeling that they hardly bother to listen to arguments. They continually repeat assertions in debate after debate which bear no relation to reality, and clearly they see no reason why they should not go on doing so. To every question which is put to them, whether by way of interjection or in speeches, they have one stock answer, which is that the House would not expect them to tell the truth about our defences. If one admits that, it seems pointless to hold debates. Since what we are talking about for the most part is the deterrent, and since the important thing about the deterrent is to let the other chap know how powerful it is, keeping it dark does not seem to be an awfully good way of going about it. Mr. Khrushchev does not conduct his affairs in that way.
  Because Ministers get away with the repetition of assertions, they go on making claims which bear no relation to reality. It is claimed that weapons and vehicles exist now when production orders have not even been placed for them. Aeroplanes are put forward again and again, year after year, as new super-machines when not even the prototype has flown. Today, the Minister of Aviation was claiming for the second or third time—he did not know how many times it had been claimed—aeroplanes as having been ordered when everybody knows that the

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  first plane has not yet got into the air. When the paper exercise which Ministers conduct begins to wear thin, things are equally easy for Ministers. They have done it again this time. They just change the name of the aeroplane that they are talking about or redescribe its function and then, hey presto, we are off again.
  If anyone thinks that I am exaggerating, I invite him to look at what the Minister of Defence said in columns 34 to 36 of yesterday's HANSARD. The Minister there told us about a number of weapons which he said would be absolute winners. He spoke of the Chieftain tank, and said:
  "… we hope confidently to place a … production order … for delivery early in 1965."
  We have not yet placed the order! he hopes confidently to be able to place an order for delivery early in 1965.
  The right hon. Gentleman went on to talk about the Abbot. He said:
  "It is already in production",
  and then quickly corrected himself and said:
  "… that is to say, the long lead items are being ordered"—
  a quite different thing from being in production—
  "and it should start to arrive in 1965."
  The right hon. Gentleman then went on to talk about the 175 mm. gun and said:
  "Subject to satisfactory contract arrangements"—
  that is quite a qualification—
  "if an order is now placed"—
  he said not that it is being placed but if it is placed—
  "it should come into delivery in 1964"—
  There is quite a lot of qualification about that. Later, he talked about aircraft which are already flying. But by "flying" he did not mean that they were in service or available. He meant the very early prototypes. He talked about the TSR2 being due to fly in 1964. But he did not mean that it would be flying in service but that the first prototype should, with a bit of luck, fly next year. He added:
  "Looking at the equipment which these Services have today and looking at the equipment which I have outlined, I think I can say that never in peacetime in our history have we had Services better equipped or better disposed in the various theatres which we are considering to meet any threat which
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  they may have to he called upon to meet."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 4th March, 1963; Vol. 673, c. 34–36.]
  That is a very big claim. It was then that I asked the right hon. Gentleman
  "When will all this he so?"
  The reply was, "It is so now". But it is not so. If these statements are not intended to be dishonest, one wonders how to deal with men who are capable of such self-deception. It seems impossible to get over to them the idea that one cannot run defence policy on the basis of taking credit for, taking account of, and making claims on, weapons that do not exist.
  This Ministerial attitude applies also to policy. The right hon. Gentleman must not be surprised if we view with scepticism his announcement of a new defence structure reorganisation. We have had similar pronouncements over the years. We heard it in 1958 and have heard it again and again since. Nothing has yet happened. In what may be an equal piece of dissembling, all that the Minister now says is that a decision has been taken in principle. He does not mean that a decision has been taken to do it. The very next passage in his speech makes it clear that the Government are going to listen to what people have to say and that he hopes that something positive will be before the House in legislation in the late summer.
  I have been in this House quite a long time, and I know very well that if a major Bill comes before the House in the later summer one can guarantee that it will not be through by the end of the Session. Therefore, if the right hon. Gentleman thinks of bringing forward this legislation in about July, the conclusion is that he does not expect to have it ready or that it really will not be through in this Session, and therefore that all the talk about a decision having been made is a lot of "all my eye and Betty Martin"—which is just the sort of thing we have heard before through the years.
  My feeling that the grandiloquent nature of his remarks did not make a great advance was heightened by the fact that he could not answer a single relevant question put to him. My hon. Friend the Member for Dudley (Mr. Wigg) put what he described as the "64,000-dollar question" about financial arrangements, about whether there would

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  be a single accounting officer. The Minister agreed that it was a good question, but he left it there. I am at a loss to understand how one can announce a decision, even in principle, much less a decision to go ahead with something, if one has not even considered that aspect.
  The hon. Member for Maldon (Mr. B. Harrison) asked an equally important and relevant question, to which the right hon. Gentleman equally had no answer, about the status of the other Ministers. The right hon. Gentleman asked his hon. Friend to wait until later in the speech, and, as usual, he never got there at all.
  The hon. Member for Sunderland, South (Mr. P. Williams), whom the right hon. Gentleman desperately tried to keep out, finally managed, with persistence, to get in on the back of my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, South-East (Mr. Callaghan) to put an equally apposite question about the procurement of supplies. The right hon. Gentleman replied that the Minister of Aviation would answer today. But that was one thing which the Minister of Aviation did not do. The only certainty is that questions like that have not been considered.
  I have the firm conviction on this, as on Skybolt and as on the Polaris agreement at Nassau, that the Government continually grab at what looks like a dramatic project. Every time they need a fresh shot in the arm they decide—in principle, of course—about it and, having decided, leave the thinking out of the details to others. The difficulties involved are comprehended only afterwards; the consequences which have to be faced are thought about only afterwards; and the snags involved are thought about only afterwards. That is why with Skybolt and Polaris and every decision since 1958 they have run away and looked for some fresh gimmick to overlay the previous one. They are always looking for something to turn up, like a gang of feckless adventurers, and they always assume that somehow or other they will be able to dupe the gullible, and as far as hon. Members opposite are concerned they always do.
  It is out of this unhappy approach by Ministers that the boredom and cynicism around our defence debates grow. It is out of this unhappy attitude by Ministers that there come the lack of
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  relevant defences today and our total absence of defence policy. I want to consider two or three of the things which have come out of the debate and to turn, first, to the question of the proposed reorganisation and to try to state what I hope will be our point of view and what I think our point of view generally is and what is certainly mine. [HON. MEMBERS: "Does he not know?"] On a matter like this, Members of Parliament ought to be free to make up their own minds. This is a constitutional issue of tremendous importance. I would not dream of suggesting that some people on these benches would not take a view different from mine, but I believe that what I have to say will carry most of my hon. Friends with it.
  If this scheme of reorganisation is carried through, and if the consequential changes which are needed to give it practical effect are made, it will be a sensible operation and a sensible start to what must lead ultimately to a still greater degree of integration among the Services. In the end there is an unanswerable case for two Services rather than three, whether one approaches it on a functional basis or not. There will be one Service which will have the strike operation, one which will have the transport operation and one which will have the land duties to perform. [HON. MEMBERS: "That is three."] There is a case for two Services rather than three, one may be the naval and flying force and the other the land force. The present operation is an important and sensible beginning on the road which may well end there.
  Not only will we have greater integration Service-wise, but we need greater integration financially, and that is why we shall have to come to the idea of one defence budget and one accounting officer. I see no reason to discourage the Minister of Defence from making this reorganisation effective. I confess my doubts about whether in fact he will, but I hope that he will. On these beaches we have campaigned for this reorganisation for a long time. When I made my first speech on defence in Opposition in 1956, I supported the then Minister of Defence, and in 1958 it looked as though he was looking that way. Several years ago, some of my hon. Friends and I consulted a number of distinguished

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  gentlemen about the kind of way in which this could be done.
  It is worth recalling that one of those whom we consulted was Sir Ian Jacob. We listened very carefully to the ideas which he made public in 1956, and a very large part of the Minister's present scheme is the scheme which Sir Ian made public in 1956 and which he was good enough to discuss with us a couple of years later. Since then, although our views have always been tossed contemptuously aside by the Minister's predecessors, we have consistently put them forward in the House, in lectures to the I.D.C., to the Institute of Strategic Studies, and to pretty well all the staff colleges. What I think has happened is that what we were putting forward there has trickled back to the Government who called in the advisers who advised us. But the difference is that they got their advice several years later than we got ours.
  We shall return, as we must, to a discussion on this as and when we get the opportunity to do so. There are many details of vital importance to be cleared up, and I should like to emphasise the importance of the need for time and opportunity to discuss this. This is a far-reaching and vital constitutional change. It needs some guarantee that thought, expertise and great care has been involved in working it out. I have always taken the view that this is not the sort of thing, even though broadly I agree with it, which ought to be done on the ipse dixit of a Minister or even the Government. That is why I favour the idea of setting up a new Esher Committee of weight and standing to give its authority to this change because of the help that would be in overcoming the fears, worries and anxieties of the people in the Services and elsewhere.
  I suggest to the Minister that before he pushes this through there is a lot to be said for setting up a body of weighty authoritative opinion—not that Sir Ian Jacob or Lord Ismay are not—under an acceptable chairman so that we can be sure that the consequences of this change have been fully thought out, and that when the decision is put into practice we shall not be leaving a lot of loose ends behind us.
  But even if it will improve the situation in future, it is no answer to our case either on the present state of the
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  forces or the present state of policy. I want to look first at the state of the forces. It is my submission to the House that on this aspect Ministers exceed the bounds permissible in their denial of facts. Yesterday the Secretary of State for War accused my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey) of making what he called a damaging statement. He said:
  "The hon. Member for Leeds, East said, in a rather damaging passage in his speech, that B.A.O.R. was sc. depleted and lacking in equipment that it was not able to do its job. I know that he is new to this"—
  he is not as new as all that—
  "but I assure him that such statements are damaging without being truthful."
  Later the right hon. Gentleman said:
  "It is all right for the hon. Member to say that we have not gone fast enough, or planned well enough, but I hope he will not assert that at any time B.A.O.R. was not able to carry out its job, because that is damaging to the truth."
  And if that was not enough, later, when talking about strategy, he said:
  "Up to the present our forces have not only been trained according to the lines of the orders of the Commander in Chief but have been capable at all times of carrying out the orders that have been given."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 4th March, 1963; Vol. 673, col 159–60.]
  I assert that not only was my hon. Friend not damaging the truth but was saying exactly what was the situation in B.A.O.R. Indeed, it is the Minister who is damaging the truth. The fact of the matter is that not in equipment, nor in efficiency, nor in the strategy as between nuclear and conventional warfare, has B.A.O.R. until recently—or as far as I know even now—been in a position to carry out the rôle which its position in the S.H.A.P.E. line would require it to do. It just has not been so. It may be damaging if that is the case, but the damage is not in saying it. The damage lies in the fact that this is the situation.
  It is not just we who say this. Anyone who has visited B.A.O.R., or has been up to First Corps, or has been to S.H.A.P.E., or has discussed the situation with the Commander of the First Corps, and has discussed that in turn with the S.H.A.P.E. Commander and strategists, or has looked at the equipment and at the mobility, knows that this is the situation.

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  None of us is free to reveal details of the briefings given to us on those occasions. That is why it is difficult to deal with Ministers who deny what we, what journalists and what all other people know to be the position. All I can say is that that is my view of the position, and it accords entirely with that of my hon. Friend. We must allow the public to make a choice between us.
  There must have been some improvement in the state of equipment in B.A.O.R. since I was there nearly a year ago; it would be surprising if that were not the case. But it is clear that it is not all that much, from the speech of the Minister himself. He was still talking about guns that are still to come, and about signals equipment that is still being brought up and being improved, and saying that now we are going to have more modern equipment. The clearest commentary on the situation was discovered by me last Saturday, when I opened a civil defence headquarters in my county. When I looked at the signals vehicles drawn up for inspection I realised that they have more modern signals equipment in the civil defence vehicles at home than they had even in the best equipped unit that I saw in B.A.O.R. a year ago.
  I can only assert that under this Government Britain has not met her alliance commitments in Europe, and that no branch of our forces, at this time, is adequately armed or equipped for its rôle—even supposing that its rôle is known. The rôle is not known in all cases. I was fascinated to hear the Minister of Defence say yesterday that we now have to answer the tremendously important question: what is the rôle for the Navy in the 1970s? Good gracious me—the then Minister of Defence said that in 1958. That was part of the famous White Paper. That was one of the things that we were going to work out. We are still going to work it out. The Government do not know the future rôle of the Navy yet.
  In my view, the reasons for this lie partly in administrative blockages—the sort of thing that the Minister of Aviation was talking about today; the fact that we have not got any procurement arrangements right ever since the Minister of Supply was superseded, not that I suggest
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  that it was right even then—partly in inter-Service conflicts, with the opportunities for vested interests to obstruct changes—and the new defence structure is intended to remove some of that—and partly in the downright inability of Ministers to make decisions, stay with them, and carry them through; but above all, it lies in the failure to establish a policy for this country on a basis that is either relevant to our needs or possible within the limits of our resources.
  Let me look first at the question of policy, including foreign policy. My hon. Friends the Members for Leeds, East and Birmingham, Stechford (Mr. Roy Jenkins) yesterday dealt with the basic failures of foreign policy. I need do no more at the end of the debate than restate the weaknesses as we see them. The Government have never made up their mind what answers to give to three essential questions. The first is: what is the nature of the threat that we are trying to guard against? The second is: what, if any, independent "go-it-alone" rôle is open to Britain in the modern world, and the third is: what is the extent of our commitment, in terms of policy, of association and of forces, inside our alliances, together with the related question concerning the degree of limitation which that commitment imposes on our individual freedom of action?
  Until we answer those questions firmly, in accord with the facts, and not as hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite may like to answer them, the defence planners will have a totally impossible job. It does not matter whether we put them in a new Pentagon in Whitehall or leave them in their present offices; they can make their plans only if Ministers will give them the answers to those questions and stay with them. I submit that in so far as the Minister of Defence tried to answer this yesterday he, quite clearly, still got it wrong. He gave three basic factors—they were restated in slightly different words but with the same meaning by the Secretary of State for War last night. The right hon. Gentleman said that the three basic factors for a defence policy were, first, to provide for national defence; secondly, to provide a continental Army and nuclear support for N.A.T.O. and, thirdly, to fulfil the wider world rôle.
  I do not believe that to be the right definition of our defence requirements at

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  all. I think it wrong because the national defence of these islands seems not to be an issue capable of being divorced from our association and commitments to N.A.T.O. It is within N.A.T.O. that we provide for the national defence of these islands. If we try to provide that national defence first, and carry out our commitments to N.A.T.O. with what is left, we shall not be fulfilling the first task. The third matter, the wider world rôle, is rapidly diminishing.
  Right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite will not accept the facts of life in this respect. This is a hang-over from the old so-called imperial commitments of imperial times. Already there are very few places in the world where the local authority now dare call on British national forces for their protection or support. It is not a question of whether they would like to, or whether we would like to provide them. If they do, they are out of the local political forces and that is something which they have to take into account. Things that recently happened could not now be repeated because of political developments which have since taken place. There are fewer and fewer places left in the world—shortly no places at all—where this will be our rôle as an individual nation. We may provide a contingent in an international force, or an alliance force. But as an actual national rôle for us this is diminishing.
  Because Ministers will not see the facts this out-dated concept continues to bedevil their approach to the nature, the size and the equipment of the forces we provide. The Minister has himself said that because we concentrated on this we have not dealt with the real requirements of the Army in Europe. Conservatives must get it into their heads that there is nothing disloyal, nothing unpatriotic, in recognising the facts of world political development over the last 20 years. There has been a tremendous political revolution since the beginning of the Second World War, and it has proceeded much faster in the last decade. It is not unpatriotic to recognise that that is so. I believe that if Conservatives would do this, they would cease to make some of the disastrous defence mistakes which they have made throughout the last 11 years and which have been so potentially harmful to Britain's real interests.
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  There is little excuse for them failing to do so, because it was a similar patriotic disillusion which led them to regard Communism as a greater threat that Fascism in the 'thirties, and which led directly to the defence tragedies of those years. They thought then that they were patriotically picking the bigger threat. They failed to realise the change which had come over the world in the 1930s compared with the 1920s and they adjusted themselves to the wrong threat. They were unable, unprepared and unwilling to deal with the real threat which we had to face in 1939.
  I beg them to think differently about this. If they would do so, then the Secretary of State and the Minister of Aviation would be spared and we would be spared those silly, rather cheap political 10 minutes or so which so disfigured the speeches of each of them. We understand that we might get it wrong, but we are trying to address ourselves to the issues as we see them. Ever since the beginning of this century it is an historical fact that it has always been the Conservative Party which was wrong and the Radical party which has had to come in to put defence right.
  Similarly, they should face the changes in nuclear power relationships. It was fascinating to find how very few speeches by hon. Members opposite suggested that they know the difference between them and rocketry development. There has been an enormous change here even since 1958, a tremendous change. I went over this in the debate on the Nassau Agreement. I do not think that there has been any contradiction either in that debate or this of the arguments I then put forward. I can only assume that Ministers and their supporters do not want to see the facts which are there.
  I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Dudley. I am quite sure that within a year or so—assuming, which heaven forbid, that they should still be in office—right hon. Members opposite will accept these things. I believe that they are in the process of changing policy. I believe that one of the reasons for the desire for a defence structure change is that the top advisers want to be sure to produce a different outlook and policy through the Minister of Defence. Some speeches made by hon. Members opposite will look very silly when that happens.

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  I wish to reassert some things which seem to me to be clear. One is that the V-bomber force has been a credible independent deterrent force. I am talking of it as an independent force at the moment. It is certainly much less credible as an independent deterrent today than it has been, and quite soon it will cease to be credible as an independent deterrent force at all. Let us get one or two things clear. The credibility of our V-bomber force as an independent force has to exist in the mind of somebody we are trying to deter. It is not how much we want to think of it as an independent force; it is what he thinks about it that really matters.
  The point of the matter is that it is not, as hon. Members opposite have said, the weight or tonnage or whatever other unit is used for these wretched things, it is not the amount of destructive power which notionally can be dropped by one bomber, by 50 bombers or 150 bombers. The credibility does not reside in that. The credibility resides in the likelihood or the certainty of the force getting through, and that credibility is disappearing. There comes a point when the bombers may still be well able to fly and may still be able to play an effective rôle as part of the N.A.T.O. force, a combined force, but the chances of their getting through are so little, and therefore what we would achieve by sending them as a first-strike weapon is so little, that they become a provocation and no longer a deterrent used in that form. I suggest to Ministers that it is time they looked at facts in this way.
  There is, it seems, no feasible or practical means by which we can provide independently a delivery system to succeed the V-bombers. It is no good saying that we are not responsible for this. Hon. Members opposite have been talking as if somehow this were a black mark against hon. Members on this side of the House. Blue Streak collapsed under this Government, not under us. When Blue Streak collapsed and we gave up Blue Steel Mach II and various other rocket developments, we went out of the rocketry business for the purpose of an independent development force. When I say "we" I mean Great Britain, because it was the Government who took us out. If we were to try to get back,
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  by the time we got back it might be satellites we would have to deter and not rockets. We should be back in the wrong business.
  We must face realities and stop expensive pretences. Skybolt was an expensive pretence that did not come off. Polaris may come off, but it is still an expensive pretence because it can never be independent in any genuine sense of the word and it will cost us an enormous sum of money. Honestly, the four or five submarines concerned are never going to be even as much of a credible deterrent as is the present V-bomber force. The only effect of going on with all this is to give support, by example, to the proliferation of nuclear weapons throughout the other forces of N.A.T.O.
  The only sensible course, like it or hate it as one will—and some will prefer it while others will find it distasteful—is, whatever one's emotions, to drop the pretence. That is the only sensible course. This would save the money which it is proposed to put into expanding the thing after the V-bombers have been phased out, and that money could be used for the urgent task of bringing our conventional forces up to scratch and giving them the mobility of equipment they need. This would make defence sense because with the money that would be saved the Government could each year buy a lot of better equipment and achieve mobility.
  It is not only a question of that, for it goes much further. We should be able to get the influence in the alliance which the possession of a deterrent that is only a pretence certainly cannot buy us. This brings me to the extraordinary collection of widely differing ideas and fantasies grouped together under the generic title of the N.A.T.O. deterrent. No two advocates mean the same thing. Some seem to mean the putting together of essential national forces, internationally commanded, and able to be drawn back in time of need. But the Americans do not mean that. They mean creating a new force, manning it with mixed crews of all nations and creating something subject to direction by three or four nations. The Continentals, on the other hand, do not mean either of those things. The motives are also mixed. Some want to curb the Germans, some want to curb General de Gaulle and some put it for-

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  ward because the present system seems illogical. Some in America consider that it is because the nations of the West should make a financial contribution to the cost of the nuclear deterrent.
  It seems crystal clear that no one is asking for it to improve either the credibility or the power of the existing Western deterrent. It cannot increase its power or its size. It can only cause confusion in command and thereby lessen its credibility. It is not a matter of whether there are 15 fingers on the trigger or on the safety catch. The person who might be likely to attack will not believe in it more because there are 15 or 16 people involved instead of one.
  It must be an extremely costly business because the United States insist on a contribution from everyone here. At present the N.A.T.O. apportionment will mean a lot of money from N.A.T.O. Powers which are already defaulting on their conventional responsibilities because, they say, they cannot find the money. Thus, if it came about—which I doubt—it would lead back to the trip-wire theory in Europe, because the conventional shield would be reduced and it would make the use of nuclear weapons more likely than less likely. I would regard that as disastrous and I most certainly do not think that it would deter General de Gaulle.
  The conclusion I draw at the end of the debate is that clearly, on their own speeches and statements, the Government have no policy. Secondly, equally clearly, Great Britain has today totally inadequate and largely irrelevant defence provisions. Thirdly, the Government even today are not facing, let alone meeting, the vital defence issues but are keeping up the pretence, are continuing the double-talk, and are spending an unprecedented sum of money while they are doing it. For all these reasons, I submit to the House that anybody who puts nation before party will vote for us and deny the Government any confidence tonight.
  9.30 p.m.
  The Minister of Defence (Mr. Peter Thornecroft): We are at the concluding stages of a defence debate which has ranged over grave and complicated matters. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Belper (Mr. G. Brown) started by expressing a feeling of bore-
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  dom and cynicism. He complained that Ministers never listened to the arguments. I must say that I have heard almost every speech in the debate. I have certainly sought to listen to the arguments, and I will certainly try to reply to his, because, if I may say so, if not at the beginning and not very much at the end, in the middle of his speech I detected a moment when he really was addressing himself to some of the fundamental issues before us.
  The Amendment is, in effect, a Motion of censure. It is couched in terms which complain about the absence of a policy or the collapse of a policy, but the reality of the Opposition's case, as the right hon. Member for Belper made quite clear, is something quite different from the terms of the Amendment. The terms of the Amendment conceal really sharp differences of policy. I believe it was my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Lewes (Sir T. Beamish) who said that it might be a good thing if we were bipartisan in this, but it is no good trying to conceal differences if they exist. Our policy, as he rightly stated, is deterring an attack on this island, providing conventional and nuclear support for Europe, and carrying out a worldwide rôle, particularly between Singapore and Suez. [HON. MEMBERS: "Suez?"] Yes. This is a policy which can be criticised, and it certainly is a policy which costs money. It can be said of it that it places, as it does, a very heavy strain indeed upon our resources, but in no circumstances can it be said either to have collapsed or to be non-existent.
  It seems to me that it would have been much better and far more intelligent if the Amendment had been directed to a challenge of the policy on its merits and we had voted on the merits of the policy. [HON. MEMBERS: "What policy?"] I should like to examine the attack which has been made. The real attack was expressed much better, if I may say so, from the Opposition back benches than from the Opposition Front Bench. I thought that the hon. Member for Birmingham, Stechford (Mr. Roy Jenkins) made a speech of real capacity which went to the roots of this matter.
  The real case which the Opposition are seeking to put forward is that they are opposed to the British strategic deterrent. They wish to withdraw the tactical nuclear weapons from the front

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  line of N.A.T.O., and they wish to withdraw troops from the world-wide rôle—which I think the right hon. Member for Belper said was something of rapidly diminishing importance—in order to put them into Europe. These are important points. We disagree with all of them. We differ sharply with the Opposition on these, and they certainly merit debate. I should like to examine these differences for a few moments.
  Our policy is firmly based on the deterrent. The Opposition seek to blur this issue. They either criticise the weapon or claim for some reason that what one owns is not available to one, or that if we target it in co-operation with an ally this somehow or other denies it to us. The requirement for a deterrent was put in an extremely able speech by my hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth, West (Mr. Eden), in which he said that what we require is sufficient nuclear strength to make the threat of nuclear attack against us unrealistic. That is exactly what we require.
  The truth is that the decision to abandon Polaris—and that is plainly the Opposition's policy—would leave the deterrent to Russia, to the United States and to General de Gaulle. At least, that is a very big decision in foreign policy. It is not easy to forecast all forms of emergency ahead, particularly in defence, but our dependence for any attitude or action in foreign policy on agreement with the Russians, the Americans or the French would be certainly much increased by any decision to scrap it.
  The Opposition make one very big assumption—the right hon. Member for Belper made it—that never in any circumstances would we be faced with a threat or that if we were faced with one we would always have an ally who would be ready on our side. I pray that they are right, but that is a huge assumption to make. Obviously, if those responsible for our defence policy started by making that assumption, our policy would be much cheaper than it is today. Very few responsible Governments, however, would ever decide to make that decision for the future. I doubt whether the majority of the British people would be quite as sanguine as the right hon. Member for Belper about the future.
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  The second difference concerns N.A.T.O. [Interruption.] The hon. Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey) spoke for a long time and nobody shouted at him.
  Mr. Healey: The right hon. Gentleman is putting an interesting point, but, surely, it applies no less to the West German Government than to our own. If he concedes this, how is it compatible with the rest of his policy?
  Mr. Thorneycroft: The hon. Member, who at some time had a nodding acquaintance with foreign affairs, must know that the West German Government is under treaty obligation not to manufacture nuclear weapons.
  The second difference concerns N.A.T.O. The Opposition claim that they support N.A.T.O. Indeed, they say that it is the cornerstone of their policy. I say to the hon. Member for Leeds, East that to withdraw tactical nuclear weapons from the front line would be an odd contribution to that alliance. If the hon. Member's point is to prevent the Germans making their own weapons, surely it is most astonishing to suggest that the first thing to do is to take away from them the weapons which they have.
  The object of having tactical nuclear weapons forward is simply that they are tactical. If they are removed out of the range of their targets, we might as well remove them altogether, unless the plan is to shoot at either our own troops or our own civilians. [Interruption.]
  Neither do our policy differences end with tactical nuclear weapons. We envisage a N.A.T.O. nuclear force. I agree with the right hon. Member for Belper that this is a difficult and complex subject. He referred to it as a contradiction in terms or as an absolute disaster, which is not much of a contribution to the subject. If the Opposition want to avoid the proliferation of nuclear weapons, there is surely something to be said for helping our European allies to share at least the targeting and planning of nuclear weapons.
  Surely, the most hopeful way, and certainly the quickest, is for all of us to subscribe part or all of what we have, whether it is V-bombers, Polaris, the F104s of the Germans or even the Mirage of the French. If ever we are to hope

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  to get co-operation in the nuclear field, it is not unreasonable to start by putting in what we have and inviting our allies to target and plan with us. These suggestions should not be treated with scorn, certainly not by hon. Members who claim to support N.A.T.O. These are really fundamental differences in policy. The third point of difference is on the world wide rôle. It has not been much debated. It was just referred to by the right hon. Gentleman, but it is really crucial to our defence policy, and indeed is regarded as such by our largest ally, the United States of America.
  To keep forces east of Suez, is, of course, a costly burden. If we are to cut them out of Aden or Singapore, I think that our critics ought to say so openly. If we are to hold these bases, we need substantial forces of all three Services in those great areas of the world. It seems to me that the choice here which faces all sections of the Opposition is that either they must cut our overseas rôle to reinforce Europe or reintroduce conscription, or they will not reinforce Europe at all. These are the differences which it seems to me divide us on policy. It is not a question of the Opposition or the Government not having a policy; it is that it does not happen to be the same policy. It is far better that we should face that fact.
  I turn to some of the arguments put in the debate. I start with the question of reorganisation. As the right hon. Member for Belper said, this really is a constitutional issue of considerable importance, and I am grateful to him for saying that he thinks that on the whole it is a sensible start. It is not, as his hon. Friend suggested, a mere reconstruction of machinery for making decisions at the official level. It is something which goes much more deeply into the future conduct of defence machinery.
  Of course I accept that this is not an original idea. I did not put it forward as an original idea. There are plenty of ideas about; the job of politicians is to translate them into action. That is a much more difficult thing. I do not complain at all that the right hon. Gentleman may have advocated this. He has advocated a lot of things in his time, including a deterrent, and I hope that he sticks to this one. I
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  believe that any party, never mind on which side of the House, will benefit by having the best central organisation for defence that is possible. I have been asked a few questions on this. The hon. Member for Leeds, East, my hon. Friend the Member for Dorset, West (Mr. Wingfield Digby) and my hon. Friend the Member for Maldon (Mr. B. Harrison) referred to the rôle of the Chiefs of Staff. They are, and I think rightly, to stay the heads of their Services, because that is the way they will carry weight in their advice. They will be the chief advisers to the Prime Minister, as they are today, and to the Minister of Defence. The question of attending the Cabinet and other Committees remains as it is today. They are in attendance at meetings of the Defence Committee and they may be invited to the Cabinet, as is necessary.
  The right hon. Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell), who has some knowledge of these matters and great experience, I think really approves this step forward in organisation. He gave me some advice about finance and I think that there is great force in his argument. Certainly, if we are to control defence we have to control the finance of defence, but it is a matter for consideration just what is the best machinery for doing that. I make no apology for giving some consideration to that matter before I make a final decision upon it. The other thing which I am grateful to him for saying is this. I think that there is really some limit to the number and type of questions that any Minister of Defence can conceivably be called upon to answer in the House of Commons. If he were put into the position of having to answer on every facet of administration in any of the three Services, it would be an impossible position. This leads one to the view that the Ministers in charge of the three Service branches must be of sufficient standing for the House to be willing to accept their answers to questions affecting those branches, except where matters of policy are concerned. Finally, I assure the right hon. Member for Easington that, if I hear of any further goodwill missions, I shall certainly bear his name in mind.
  My right hon. Friend the Member for Flint, West (Mr. Birch) referred to the subject of organisation. I agreed generally with most of what he said, but I did not

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  altogether agree with one suggestion which he and one or two others made that, somehow, we should have had a sort of Esher Committee or outside committee. This is one way of approaching the matter, but I ask the House to ponder whether it is not better for the Government who are responsible for this machinery to call in on a Departmental basis all the advice they like from anybody, to listen to it and then to make their own decisions on the subject. One does advance things a little bit faster that way. I do not believe that we should be anywhere near the point we are at now if we had adopted the other approach.
  My right hon. Friend asked also for what he called some disembodied thinking, that is, thinking and advice from people outside Whitehall interested in defence matters. I think that this is quite right. Perhaps the Americans do too much, but I think that it is almost certain that, in general, we have done too little. However, one of the roles of the chief scientific adviser is not to do all the disembodied thinking himself but to be a focus to which other disembodied thinkers can come. In principle, I support what my right hon. Friend said.
  I do not agree with him about the Chief of the Defence Staff. I think that we must keep the Chief of the Defence Staff, but the Chief of the Defence Staff should not be an obstacle between the Minister of Defence and the direct access of the other Chiefs of Staff.
  My right hon. Friend referred to some strengthening of the Defence Staff. I hope that we can give consideration to this, and I think that we may be able to go some way to meet him in that direction.
  The hon. Member for Stechford made what I thought was one of the most interesting speeches in the debate. Among other things, he paid attention to the policy of options. It is rather an attractive idea that one should have such a range of methods of retaliation that one can judge the form of attack and act accordingly. A missile is dropping. One says, "Are they attacking our missiles, our armies, our cities, or, indeed, us at all?" Then one measures the retaliation according to the type of attack.
  This is, I suggest, of a little more interest to a large country like the
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  United States of America than to this country. It would be very difficult, if anything started dropping on this country, to say just precisely what the intentions of those who shot it really were. I think that there is a danger in too theoretical an approach to nuclear matters. The idea that one can have a limited tactical nuclear war, a limited strategic nuclear war, or even a limited conventional war in Western Europe is all very dangerous thinking indeed. The dangers of escalation in matters of that kind are very considerable.
  The hon. Gentleman wanted closer consultation with the United States. So did the right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond), and so did the Liberal pamphlet. Why should the Americans co-operate with us in nuclear research and development if we announce in advance that we intend to take no part in it, and, therefore, have no real contribution to make before we start the consultation?
  If I may say so, the right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland had a somewhat confused view of the deterrent. He seemed to form the view that one could not have an independent deterrent and subscribe it to N.A.T.O. I cannot see why. Why cannot a nation subscribe forces which it has? Why should it have lost them for all time once it has subscribed them? Suppose that the British Expeditionary Force in the last war had been subscribed to the Alliance in the way that the right hon. Gentleman suggests. We could not have taken it out through Dunkirk and we should have been in a very difficult position. One does not lose something by subscribing one's strength to the Alliance. If we approach defence policy on these terms, it is no wonder we get into considerable difficulty.
  The right hon. Gentleman also asked what had been the effect of the N.A.T.O. nuclear committee set up after Athens to lay down certain guide lines. Guide lines tend to be a little academic unless there is something specific to guide. The whole point of the Nassau Agreement was that it provided something to lay down guide lines about, and as a result we have been able to put in, or to offer, the whole of our V-bomber force. The Americans have put forward the Polaris, and there are other suggestions for mixed

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  manned forces. I think that these actions will lend a great deal of point and purpose to a N.A.T.O. nuclear committee which was rather absent before.
  My right hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Norwood (Sir J. Smyth) made an important speech on conventional forces. He asked a very proper question, namely, what is the purpose of pouring more men into Europe? This is a good question to ask, because it is the very basis of the policy which the Opposition are putting to us. I want to make my position clear. Our policy is to bring our Forces in Germany up to 55,000 troops, and we expect to get there by next year. But the Opposition say that they want to increase this. The Liberal Party wants to increase it to 75,000. Hon. Members should consider very carefully what the purpose of this is. Do they think it is possible with a force of, say, 25, 30 or even 35 divisions to fight a conventional war in Europe against a really major attack by the Russian forces? I do not believe that anyone who gives his mind to this subject really thinks that that is possible or imagines that such a battle could be fought or won without nuclear weapons, tactical nuclear weapons to start with, being used at a fairly early stage. The Russians understand this. They know it and we know it, and I think that everyone who has thought about it knows it. Therefore, do not let us go round pretending that by some magical device we can put in masses of conventional forces and forget all about the nuclear weapons. The truth is that a proper defence policy must be based on a balance of both nuclear and conventional forces in Europe, and that certainly is our policy.
  My right hon. and gallant Friend, like a number of other hon. Members, stressed the importance of reserves. The reserves are not for one particular theatre. The whole object of having reserves is that one can send them to North Borneo or to Europe. The moment we start earmarking reserves in advance as being available for only one theatre of war we lose a policy of very great value.
  The right hon. Member for Smethwick (Mr. Gordon Walker) also referred to conventional forces. For three-quarters of his speech, I thought that he made
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  a very novel approach to this subject, but then he was pressed by some of my hon. Friends and I found that all he intended was that we should have the same number of conventional forces as was provided for by the Government. This is not a very novel or dramatic approach. It is true that he said that they would have more equipment. But suppose that one doubled all the equipment mentioned in the Statement on Defence and all the massive and rather expensive equipment about which my right hon. Friend the Minister of Aviation spoke this afternoon. It still would not have such a dramatic effect as would justify the abolition of the deterrent or the scrapping of tactical or strategic nuclear weapons.
  When it came to the deterrent, the right hon. Member for Smethwick said that he had absolute trust in any future United States Government. No matter what the threat to them was, no matter whether Russian intercontinental ballistic missiles were aimed at Washington and New York, he was confident that they would always come to our aid. Yet for some quite extraordinary reason he thought that we should not have any trust in them on the possibility of delivering Polaris. That is the most extraordinarily confused view of American reliability.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Dorset, North (Sir Richard Glyn) raised the question of the strength of our nuclear strike, as did many other hon. Members and a good deal of discussion ranged as to what percentage it was of the American capacity. What matters is what it looks like from the point of view of a potential aggressor. In the debate in January, the right hon. Member for Belper suggested figures which indicated that it was about 2,500 times the size of Hiroshima. One can say many things about the nuclear deterrent but one cannot say that that is not a very formidable deterrent indeed.
  The hon. Member for Leeds, East referred to our V-bombers. It is a pity to talk about American bombers as though they were the latest wonders of modern science but to talk about anything British as obsolescent. The truth is that they are part of the same force and are working very happily and proudly together at the moment. They are now at the very peak of their power.

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  The hon. Gentleman proposes that we should assign them to NA.T.O., but without any power to withdraw them. That is the same proposal as is contained in the pink paper produced by the Liberal Party. The proposition is that one should be able to use them in everybody else's defence but never in any circumstances should one be allowed to use them in our own defence.
  The right hon. Member for Easington asked me whether we would accept a mixed manned force in substitution for our Polaris submarines. The answer is quite simply that we would not accept a mixed manned force as a substitute for our submarines.
  It is, of course, fashionable or convenient to decry the effectiveness of the Services or to say that our units are so undermanned or ill-equipped that they are unable to carry out a rôle. The fact is that recruiting has gone very well and that we are going to have a volunteer, regular professional force, well suited to our
  national purposes, this year. The fact is that a flow of new equipment has been coming in and much more is on the way, including ships, aircraft, signalling equipment, guided missiles and tanks.
  Our policy is to deter an attack upon these islands, to contribute to N.A.T.O. both conventional and nuclear weapons, and to go on fulfilling our important world-wide rôle. The Opposition have not put forward an alternative, of are fearful of doing so, and are therefore driven back on pretending that this defence statement is not a policy. Some of them wish to strip Britain of her weapons and others to deprive her allies of their bases. Neither of these two ways provides the basis for a Motion of censure on a British Government, and I ask the House to reject it
  Question put, That the words proposed to be out stand part of the Question:—
  The House divided: Ayes 333, Noes 237.

  Division No.66]

  AYES

  [10.0 p.m.

  Agnew, Sir Peter

  Campbell, Gordon (Moray & Nairn)

  Fell, Anthony

  Aitken, W. T.

  Carr, Compton (Barons Court)

  Fisher, Nigel

  Allan, Robert (Paddington, S.)

  Carr, Robert (Mitcham)

  Fletcher-Cooke, Charles

  Allason, James

  Cary, Sir Robert

  Forrest, George

  Amery, Rt. Hon. Julian

  Channon, H. P. G.

  Foster, John

  Arbuthnot, John

  Chataway, Christopher

  Fraser, Rt. Hn. Hugh (Stafford & Stone)

  Ashton, Sir Hubert

  Clark, Henry (Antrim, N.)

  Fraser, Ian (Plymouth, Sutton)

  Awdry, Daniel (Chippenham)

  Clark, William (Nottingham, S.)

  Freeth, Denzil

  Balniel, Lord

  Cleaver, Leonard

  Galbraith, Hon. T. G. D.

  Barber, Anthony

  Cole, Norman

  Gammans, Lady

  Barlow, Sir John

  Cooke, Robert

  Gardner, Edward

  Barter, John

  Cooper, A. E.

  George, J. C. (Pollok)

  Batsford, Brian

  Cooper-Key, Sir Neill

  Gibson-Watt, David

  Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton

  Cordeaux, Lt.-Col. J. K.

  Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk Central)

  Bell, Ronald

  Cordle, John

  Gilmour, Sir John (East Fife)

  Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gos & Fhm)

  Corfield, F. V.

  Glyn, Dr. Alan (Clapham)

  Berkeley, Humphry

  Costain, A. P.

  Glyn, Sir Richard (Dorset, H.)

  Bevins, Rt. Hon. Reginald

  Coulson, Michael

  Godber, J. B.

  Bidgood, John C.

  Courtney, Cdr. Anthony

  Goodhart, Philip

  Biffen, John

  Craddock, Sir Beresford (Spelthorns)

  Goodhew, Victor

  Biggs-Davison, John

  Crawley, Aldan

  Gough, Frederick

  Bingham, R. M.

  Critchley, Julian

  Gower, Raymond

  Birch, Rt. Hon. Nigel

  Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. Sir Oliver

  Grant-Ferris, R.

  Bishop, F, P.

  Crowder, F. P.

  Green, Alan

  Black, Sir Cyril

  Cunningham, Knox

  Gresham Cooke, R.

  Bossom, Hon. Clive

  Curran, Charles

  Grosvenor, Lt.-Col. R. G.

  Bourne-Arton, A.

  Currie, G. B. H.

  Curden, Harold

  Box, Donald

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Hall, John (Wycombe)

  Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hon. John

  Dance, James

  Hamilton, Michael (Wellingborough)

  Boyle, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward

  d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

  Hare, Rt. Hon. John

  Braine, Bernard

  Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N.W.)

  Brewis, John

  Deedes, Rt. Hon. W. F.

  Harris, Reader (Heston)

  Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. Sir Walter

  Digby, Simon Wingfield

  Harrison, Brian (Maldon)

  Brooke, Rt. Hon. Henry

  Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. M.

  Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)

  Brooman-White, R.

  Doughty, Charles

  Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere (Macclesf'd)

  Brown, Alan (Tottenham)

  du Cann, Edward

  Harvey, John (Walthamstow, E.)

  Browne, Percy (Torrington)

  Duncan, Sir James

  Harvie Anderson, Miss

  Bryan, Paul

  Eden, John

  Hastings, Stephen

  Buck, Antony

  Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)

  Hay, John

  Bullard, Denys

  Elliott, R. W. (Nwcastle-upon-Tyne, N.)

  Heald, Rt. Hon. Sir Lionel

  Bullus, Wing Commander Eric

  Emery, Peter

  Heath, Rt. Hon. Edward

  Burden, F. A.

  Emmet, Hon. Mrs. Evelyn

  Henderson, John (Cathcart)

  Butcher, Sir Herbert

  Errington, Sir Eric

  Hendry, Forbes

  Butler, Rt. Hn. R. A. (Saffron Walden)

  Farey-Jones, F. W.

  Hill, Dr. Rt. Hon. Charles (Luton)

  Campbell, Sir David (Belfast, S.)

  Farr, John

  Hill, Mrs. Eveline (Wythemhawe)

  Hill, J. E. B. (S. Norfolk)

  Marshall, Douglas

  Sharples, Richard

  Hirst, Geoffrey

  Marten, Neil

  Shepherd, William

  Hobson, Sir John

  Mathew, Robert (Honiton)

  Skeet, T. H. H.

  Hocking, Philip N.

  Matthews, Gordon (Meriden)

  Smith, Dudley (Br'ntf'd & Chiswick)

  Holland, Philip

  Maudling, Rt. Hon. Reginald

  Smithers, Peter

  Hollingworth, John

  Mawby, Ray

  Smyth, Rt. Hon. Brig. Sir John

  Hope, Rt. Hon. Lord John

  Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.

  Soames, Rt. Hon. Christopher

  Hopkins, Alan

  Maydon, Lt.-Cmdr. S. L. C.

  Spearman, Sir Alexander

  Hornby, R. P.

  Mills, Stratton

  Speir, Rupert

  Hornsby-Smith, Rt. Hon. Dame P.

  Miscampbell, Norman

  Stanley, Hon. Richard

  Howard, Hon. G. R. (St. Ives)

  Montgomery, Fergus

  Stevens, Geoffrey

  Howard, John (Southampton, Test)

  Moore, Sir Thomas (Ayr)

  Steward, Harold (Stockport, S.)

  Hughes Hallett, Vice-Admiral John

  More, Jasper (Ludlow)

  Stodart, J. A.

  Hughes-Young, Michael

  Morgan, William

  Stoddart-Scott, Cot. Sir Malcolm

  Hulbert, Sir Norman

  Morrison, John

  Storey, Sir Samuel

  Hurd, Sir Anthony

  Nabarro, Sir Gerald

  Studholme, Sir Henry

  Hutchison, Michael Clark

  Neave, Airey

  Summers, Sir Spencer

  Iremonger, T. L.

  Nicholls, Sir Harmar

  Talbot, John E.

  Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye)

  Nicholson, Sir Godfrey

  Tapsell, Peter

  Jackson, John

  Noble, Rt. Hon. Michael

  Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

  James, David

  Nugent, Rt. Hon. Sir Richard

  Taylor, Edwin (Bolton, E.)

  Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich)

  Oakshott, Sir Hendrie

  Taylor, Frank (M'ch'st'r, Moss Side)

  Johnson, Dr. Donald (Carlisle)

  Orr, Capt. L. P. S.

  Taylor, Sir William (Bradford, N.)

  Johnson, Eric (Blackley)

  Orr-Ewing, C. Ian

  Teeling, Sir William

  Johnson Smith, Geoffrey

  Osborn, John (Hallam)

  Temple, John M.

  Jones, Arthur (Northants, S.)

  Osborne, Sir Cyril (Louth)

  Thatcher, Mrs. Margaret

  Joseph, Rt. Hon. Sir Keith

  Page, Graham (Crosby)

  Thomas, Leslie (Canterbury)

  Kaberry, Sir Donald

  Page, John (Harrow, West)

  Thompson, Kenneth (Walton)

  Kerans, Cdr. J. S.

  Pannell, Norman (Kirkdale)

  Thompson, Richard (Croydon, S.)

  Kerr, Sir Hamilton

  Partridge, E.

  Thorneycroft, Rt. Hon. Peter

  Kershaw, Anthony

  Pearson, Frank (Clitheroe)

  Thornton-Kemsley, Sir Colin

  Kimball, Marcus

  Peel, John

  Tiley, Arthur (Bradford, W.)

  Kirk, Peter

  Percival, Ian

  Tilney, John (Wavertree)

  Kitson, Timothy

  Peyton, John

  Touche, Rt. Hon. Sir Gordon

  Lagden, Godfrey

  Pickthorn, Sir Kenneth

  Turner, Colin

  Lambton, Viscount

  Pike, Miss Mervyn

  Turton, Rt. Hon. R. H.

  Lancaster, Col. C. G.

  Pilkington, Sir Richard

  Tweedsmuir, Lady

  Leather, Sir Edwin

  Pitman, Sir James

  van Straubenzee, W. R.

  Leavey, J. A.

  Pitt, Dame Edith

  Vane, W. M. F.

  Leburn, Gilmour

  Pott, Percivall

  vaughan-Morgan, Rt. Hon. Sir John

  Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry

  Powell, Rt. Hon. J. Enoch

  Vickers, Miss Joan

  Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

  Price, David (Eastleigh)

  Lilley, F. J. P.

  Price, H. A. (Lewisham, W.)

  Vosper, Rt. Hon. Dennis

  Lindsay, Sir Martin

  Prior, J. M. L.

  Wakefield, Sir Wavell

  Linstead, Sir Hugh

  Prior-Palmer, Brig. Sir Otho

  Walder, David

  Litchfield, Capt. John

  Profumo, Rt. Hon. John

  Walker, Peter

  Lloyd, Rt. Hn. Geoffrey (Sut'nC'dfield)

  Proudfoot, Wilfred

  Walker-Smith, Rt. Hon. Sir Derek

  Lloyd, Rt. Hon. Selwyn (Wirral)

  Pym, Francis

  wall, Patrick

  Longbottom, Charles

  Quennell, Miss J. M.

  Ward, Dame Irene

  Longden, Gilbert

  Ramsden, James

  Watkinson, Rt. Hon. Harold

  Loveys, Walter H.

  Rawlinson, Sir Peter

  Webster, David

  Lucas, Sir Jocelyn

  Redmayne, Rt. Hon. Martin

  Wells, John (Maidstone)

  Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh

  Rees, Hugh

  Whitelaw, William

  McAdden, Sir Stephen

  Rees-Davies, W. R.

  Williams, Dudley (Exeter)

  MacArthur, Ian

  Williams, Paul (Sunderland, S.)

  McLaren, Martin

  Renton, Rt. Hon. David

  Wills, Sir Gerald (Bridgwater)

  McLaughlin, Mrs. Patricia

  Ridley, Hon. Nicholas

  Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

  Maclay, Rt. Hon. John

  Ridsdale, Julian

  Wise, A. R.

  Maclean, Sir Fitzroy (Bute & N.Ayra)

  Rippon, Rt. Hon. Geoffrey

  Wolrige-Cordon, Patrick

  Macleod, Rt. Hn. Iain (Enfield, W.)

  Robertson, Sir D. (C'thn's & S'th'ld)

  wood, Rt. Hon. Richard

  MacLeod, John (Ross & Cromarty)

  Robson Brown, Sir William

  Woodhouse, C. M.

  McMaster, Stanley R.

  Rodgers, John (Sevenoaks)

  Woodnutt, Mark

  Macpherson, Rt. Hn. Niall (Dumfries)

  Ropner, Col. Sir Leonard

  Woollam, John

  Maddan, Martin

  Royle, Anthony (Richmond, Surrey)

  Worsley, Marcus

  Maginnis, John E.

  Russell, Ronald

  Yates, William (The Wrekin)

  Maitland, Sir John

  St. Clair, M.

  Markham, Major Sir Frank

  Scott-Hopkins, James

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

  Marlowe, Anthony

  Seymour, Leslie

  Mr. Chichester-Clark and

  Mr. Finlay.

  NOES

  Abse, Leo

  Benson, Sir George

  Broughton, Dr. A. D. D.

  Ainsley, William

  Blackburn, F.

  Brown, Rt. Hon. George (Belper)

  Albu, Austen

  Blyton, William

  Brown, Thomas (Ince)

  Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

  Boardman, H.

  Butler, Herbert (Hackney, C.)

  Awbery, Stan (Bristol Central)

  Bottomley, Rt. Hon. A. G.

  Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)

  Bacon, Miss Alice

  Bowden, Rt. Hn. H. W. (Leics, S.W.)

  Callaghan, James

  Baird, John

  Bowen, Roderic, (Cardigan)

  Carmichael, Neil

  Barnett, Guy

  Bowles, Frank

  Castle, Mrs. Barbara

  Baxter, William (Stirlingshire, W.)

  Boyden, James

  Chapman, Donald

  Beaney, Alan

  Braddock, Mrs. E. M.

  Cliffe, Michael

  Bellenger, Rt. Hon. F, J.

  Bradley, Tom

  Collick, Percy

  Bence, Cyril

  Bray, Dr. Jeremy

  Corbet, Mrs. Freda

  Bennett, J. (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

  Brockway, A. Fenner

  Craddock, George (Bradford, S.)

  342

  343

  Cronin, John

  Jay, Rt. Hon. Douglas

  Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

  Crosland, Anthony

  Jeger, George

  Probert, Arthur

  Grossman, R. H. S.

  Jenkins, Roy (Stechford)

  Proctor, W. T.

  Cullen, Mrs. Alice

  Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)

  Pursey, Cmdr. Harry

  Dalyell, Tam

  Jones, Rt. Hn. A. Creech (Wakefield)

  Rankin, John

  Darling, George

  Jones, Dan (Burnley)

  Redhead, E. C.

  Davies, G. Elfed (Rhonnda, E.)

  Jones, Elwyn (West Ham, S.)

  Reid, William

  Davies, Harold (Leek)

  Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham)

  Reynolds, G. W.

  Davies, Ifor (Cower)

  Jones, T. W. (Merioneth)

  Rhodes, H.

  Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)

  Kelley, Richard

  Roberts, Albert (Narmanton)

  Deer, George

  Kenyon, Clifford

  Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon)

  Delargy, Hugh

  Key, Rt. Hon. C. W.

  Robertson, John (Paisley)

  Dempsey, James

  King, Dr. Horace

  Robinson, Kenneth (St. Pancras, N.)

  Diamond, John

  Lawson, George

  Rodgers, W. T. (Stockton)

  Dodds, Norman

  Ledger, Ron

  Ross, William

  Donnelly, Descond

  Lee, Frederick (Newton)

  Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E.

  Driberg, Tom

  Lee, Miss Jennie (Cannock)

  Silverman, Julius (Aston)

  Dugdale, Rt. Hon. John

  Lever, L. M. (Ardwick)

  Silverman, Sydney (Nelson)

  Ede, Rt. Hon. C.

  Lipton, Marcus

  Skeffington, Arthur

  Edelman, Maurice

  Lubbock, Eric

  Slater, Mrs. Harriet (Stoke, N.)

  Edwards, Rt. Hon. Ness (Caerphilly)

  Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

  Slater, Joseph (Sedgefield)

  Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

  McCann, John

  Small, William

  Edwards, Walter (Stepney)

  MacColl, James

  Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.)

  Evans, Albert

  MacDermot, Niall

  Snow, Julian

  Finch, Harold

  McInnes, James

  Sorensen, R. W.

  Fitch, Alan

  McKay, John (Wallsend)

  Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank

  Fletcher, Eric

  Mackie, John (Enfield, East)

  Spriggs, Leslie

  Foot, Dingle (Ipswich)

  McLeavy, Frank

  Steele, Thomas

  Foot, Michael (Ebbw Vale)

  MacPherson, Malcolm (Stirling)

  Stewart, Michael (Fulham)

  Forman, J. C.

  Mahon, Simon

  Stonehouse, John

  Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton)

  Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg)

  Strauss, Rt. Hon. G. R. (Vauxhall)

  George, Lady Megan Lloyd (Crmrthn)

  Mallalieu, J.P.W. (Huddersfield, E.)

  stross, Dr. Barnett (Stoke-on-Trent, C.)

  Ginsburg, David

  Manuel, Archie

  Swingler, Stephen

  Gooch, E. G.

  Mapp, Charles

  Taverne, D.

  Gordon Walker, Rt. Hon. P. C.

  Marsh, Richard

  Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield)

  Gourlay, Harry

  Mason, Roy

  Thomas, George (Cardiff, W.)

  Greenwood, Anthony

  Mayhew, Christopher

  Thomas, Iorwerth (Rhondda, W.)

  Grey, Charles

  Mellish, R. J.

  Thompson, Dr. Alan (Dunfermline)

  Griffiths, David (Bother Valley)

  Mendelson, J. J.

  Thomson, G. M. (Dundee, E.)

  Griffiths,.Rt. Hon. James (Llanelly)

  Millan, Bruce

  Thornton, Ernest

  Griffiths, W. (Exchange)

  Milne, Edward

  Thorpe, Jeremy

  Grimond, Rt. Hon. J.

  Mitchison, G. R.

  Timmons, John

  Gunter, Ray

  Moody, A. S.

  Tomney, Frank

  Hale, Leslie (Oldham, W.)

  Morris, John

  Wade, Donald

  Hamilton, William (West Fife)

  Moyle, Arthur

  Wainwright, Edwin

  Hannan, William

  Mulley, Frederick

  Warbey, William

  Harper, Joseph

  Neal, Harold

  Watkins, Tudor

  Hart, Mrs. Judith

  Noel-Baker, Francis (Swindon)

  Weitzman, David

  Hayman, F. H.

  Noel-Baker, Rt. Hn. Philip (Derby, S.)

  Wells, William (Walsall, N.)

  Healey, Denis

  Oliver, G. H.

  White, Mrs. Eirens

  Henderson, Rt. Hn. Arthur (Rwly Regls)

  Oram, A. E.

  Whitlock, William

  Hewitson, Capt. M.

  Oswald, Thomas

  Wigg, George

  Hilton, A. V.

  Owen, Will

  Wilkins, W. A.

  Holman, Percy

  Padley, W. E.

  Willey, Frederick

  Holt, Arthur

  Paget, R. T.

  Williams, D. J. (Neath)

  Hooson, H. E.

  Pannell, Charles (Leeds, W.)

  Williams, Ll. (Abertillery)

  Houghton, Douglas

  Pargiter, G. A.

  Williams, W. R. (Openshaw)

  Howell, Charles A. (Perry Barr)

  Parker, John

  Willis, E. G. (Edinburgh, E.)

  Howell, Denis (Small Heath)

  Parkin, B. T.

  Winterbottom, R. E.

  Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglesey)

  Paton, John

  Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A.

  Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire)

  Pavitt, Laurence

  Woof, Robert

  Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, H.)

  Pearson, Arthur (Pontypridd)

  Wyatt, Woodrow

  Hunter, A. E.

  Peart, Frederick

  Yates, Victor (Ladywood)

  Hynd, H. (Accrington)

  Pentland, Norman

  Zilliacus, K.

  Hynd, John (Attercliffe)

  Plummer, Sir Leslie

  Irvine, A. J. (Edge Hill)

  Popplewell, Ernest

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

  Irving, Sydney (Dartford)

  Prentice, R. E.

  Mr. Short and Mr. G. H. R. Rogers.

  Main Question:—
  The House divided: Ayes 323, Noes 237.

  Division No.67.]

  AYES

  10.13 p.m.

  Agnew, Sir Peter

  Barber, Anthony

  Bidgood, John C.

  Aitken, W. T.

  Barlow, Sir John

  Biffen, John

  Allan, Robert (Paddington, S.)

  Barter, John

  Biggs, Davison, John

  Allason, James

  Batsford, Brian

  Bingham, R. M.

  Amery, Rt. Hon. Julian

  Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton

  Birch, Rt. Hon. Nigel

  Arbuthnot, John

  Bell, Ronald

  Bishop, F. P.

  Ashton, Sir Hubert

  Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gos & Fhm)

  Black, Sir Cyril

  Awdry, Daniel (Chippenham)

  Berkeley, Humphry

  Bossom, Clive

  Balniel, Lord

  Bevins, Rt. Hon. Reginald

  Bourne-Arton, A.

  Box, Donald

  Hall, John (Wycombe)

  Mawby, Ray

  Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hon. John

  Hamilton, Michael (Wellingborough)

  Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.

  Boyle, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward

  Hare, Rt. Hon. John

  Maydon, Lt.-Cmdr. S. L. C.

  Braine, Bernard

  Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N.W.)

  Miscampbell, Norman

  Brewis, John

  Harris, Reader (Heston)

  Montgomery, Fergus

  Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. Sir Walter

  Harrison, Brian (Maldon)

  Moore, Sir Thomas (Ayr)

  Brooke, Rt. Hon. Henry

  Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)

  More, Jasper (Ludlow)

  Brooman-White, R.

  Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere (Macclesf'd)

  Morgan, William

  Brown, Alan {Tottenham)

  Harvey, John (Walthamstow, E.)

  Morrison, John

  Browne, Percy (Torrington)

  Harvie Anderson, Miss

  Nabarro, Gerald

  Bryan, Paul

  Hastings, Stephen

  Weave, Airey

  Buck, Anthony

  Hay, John

  Nicholls, Sir Harmar

  Bullard, Denys

  Heald, Rt. Hon. Sir Lionel

  Nicholson, Sir Godfrey

  Bullus, Wing Commander Eric

  Heath, Rt. Hon. Edward

  Noble, Rt. Hon. Michael

  Burden, F, A.

  Henderson, John (Cathcart)

  Nugent, Rt. Hon. Sir Richard

  Butcher, Sir Herbert

  Hendry, Forbes

  Oakshott, Sir Hendrie

  Butler Rt. Hn. R. A. (Saffron Walden)

  Hill, Dr. Rt. Hon. Charles (Luton)

  Orr-Ewing, C. Ian

  Campbell, Sir David (Belfast, S.)

  Hill, Mrs. Eveline (Wythenshawe)

  Osborn, John (Hallam)

  Campbell, Gordon (Moray & Nairn)

  Hill, J. E. B. (S. Norfolk)

  Osborne, Sir Cyril (Louth)

  Carr, Compton (Barons Court)

  Hirst, Geoffrey

  Page, Graham (Crosby)

  Carr, Robert (Mitcham)

  Hobson, Sir John

  Page, John (Harrow, West)

  Gary, Sir Robert

  Hocking, Philip N.

  Pannell, Norman (Kirkdale)

  Channon, H. P. G.

  Holland, Philip

  Chataway, Christopher

  Hollingworth, John

  Partridge, E.

  Clark, William (Nottingham, S.)

  Hope, Rt. Hon. Lord John

  Pearson Frank (Clitheroe)

  Cleaver, Leonard

  Hopkins, Alan

  Peel, John

  Cole, Norman

  Hornby, R. P.

  Percival, Ian

  Cooke, Robert

  Hornsby-Smith, Rt. Hon. Dame P.

  Peyton, John

  Cooper, A. E.

  Howard, Hon. G. R. (St. Ives)

  Pickthorn, Sir Kenneth

  Cooper-Key, Sir Neill

  Howard, John (Southampton, Test)

  Pike, Miss Mervyn

  Cordeaux, Lt.-Col. J. K.

  Hughes Hallett, Vice-Admiral John

  Pilkington, Sir Richard

  Cordle, John

  Hughes-Young, Michael

  Pitman, Sir James

  Corfield, F. V.

  Hulbert, Sir Norman

  Pitt, Dame Edith

  Costain, A. P.

  Hurd, Sir Anthony

  Pott, Percival

  Coulson, Michael

  Hutchison, Michael Clark

  Powell, Rt. Hon. J. Enoch

  Courtney, Cdr. Anthony

  Iremonger, T. L.

  Price, David (Eastleigh)

  Craddock, Sir Beresford

  Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye)

  Price, H. A. (Lewisham, W.)

  Crawley, Aldan

  James, David

  Prior, J. M. L.

  Critchley, Julian

  Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich)

  Prior-Palmer, Brig. Sir Otho

  Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. Sir Oliver

  Johnson, Dr. Donald (Carlisle)

  Profumo, Rt. Hon. John

  Crowder, F. P.

  Johnson, Eric (Blackley)

  Proudfoot, Wilfred

  Cunningham, Knox

  Johnson Smith, Geoffrey

  Pym, Francis

  Curran, Charles

  Jones, Arthur (Northants, S.)

  Quennell, Miss J. M.

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Joseph, Rt. Hon. Sir Keith

  Ramsden, James

  Dance, James

  Kaberry, Sir Donald

  Rawlinson, Sir Peter

  d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

  Kerans, Cdr. J. S.

  Redmayne, Rt. Hon. Martin

  Deedes, Rt. Hon. W. F.

  Kerr, Sir Hamilton

  Rees, Hugh

  Digby, Simon Wingfield

  Kershaw, Anthony

  Rees-Davies, W. R.

  Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. M.

  Kimball, Marcus

  Renton, Rt. Hon. David

  Doughty, Charles

  Kirk, Peter

  Ridley, Hon. Nicholas

  du Cann, Edward

  Kitson, Timothy

  Ridsdale, Julian

  Duncan, sir James

  Lambton, Viscount

  Rippon, Rt. Hon. Geoffrey

  Eden, John

  Lancaster, Col. C. G.

  Robertson, Sir D. (C'thn's & S'th'ld)

  Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)

  Leather, Sir Edwin

  Robson Brown, Sir William

  Elliott, R. W. (Nwcastle-upon-Tyne, N.)

  Leavey, J. A.

  Rodgers, John (Sevenoaks)

  Emery, Peter

  Leburn, Gilmour

  Ropner, Col. Sir Leonard

  Emmet, Hon. Mrs. Evelyn

  Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry

  Royle, Anthony (Richmond, Surrey)

  Errington, Sir Eric

  Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

  Russell, Ronald

  Farey-Jones, F. W.

  Lilley, F. J. P.

  St. Clair, M.

  Farr, John

  Lindsay, Sir Martin

  Scott-Hopkins, James

  Fell, Anthony

  Linstead, Sir Hugh

  Seymour, Leslie

  Fisher, Nigel

  Litchfield, Capt. John

  Sharples, Richard

  Fletcher-Cooks, Charles

  Lloyd, Rt. Hn. Geoffrey (Sut'nC'dfield)

  Shepherd, William

  Foster, John

  Lloyd, Rt. Hon. Selwyn (Wirral)

  Skeet, T. H. H.

  Fraser, Rt. Hn. Hugh (Stafford & Stone)

  Longbottom, Charles

  Smith, Dudley (Br'ntf'd & Chiswick)

  Fraser, Ian (Plymouth, Sutton)

  Longden, Gilbert

  Smithers, Peter

  Freeth, Denzil

  Loveys, Walter H.

  Smyth, Rt. Hon. Brig. Sir John

  Calbraith, Hon. T. G. D.

  Lucas, Sir Jocelyn

  Soames, Rt. Hon. Christopher

  Cammans, Lady

  Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh

  Gardner, Edward

  McAdden, Sir Stephen

  Spearman, Sir Alexander

  George, J. C. (Pollok)

  MacArthur, Ian

  Speir, Rupert

  Gibson-Watt, David

  McLaren, Martin

  Stanley, Hon. Richard

  Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk Central)

  Maclay, Rt. Hon. John

  Stevens, Geoffrey

  Gilmour, Sir John (East Fife)

  Maclean, Sir Fitzroy (Bute&N.Ayrs)

  Steward, Harold (Stockport, S.)

  Glyn, Dr. Alan (Clapham)

  Macleod, Rt. Hn. Iain (Enfield, W.)

  Stodart, J. A.

  Glyn, Sir Richard (Dorset, N.)

  MacLeod, John (Ross & Cromarty)

  Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir Malcolm

  Godber, J. B.

  Macpherson, Rt. Hn. Niall (Dumfries)

  Storey, Sir Samuel

  Goodhart, Philip

  Maddan, Martin

  Studholme, Sir Henry

  Goodhew, Victor

  Maitland, Sir John

  Summers, Sir Spencer

  Cough, Frederick

  Markham, Major Sir Frank

  Talbot, John E.

  Gower, Raymond

  Marlowe, Anthony

  Tapsell, Peter

  Grant-Ferris, R.

  Marshall, Douglas

  Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

  Green, Alan

  Marten, Neil

  Taylor, Edwin (Bolton, E.)

  Gresham Cooke, R.

  Mathew, Robert (Honiton)

  Taylor, Frank (M'ch'st'r, Moss Side)

  Grosvenor, Lt.-Col. R. G.

  Matthews, Gordon (Meriden)

  Taylor, Sir William (Bradford, N.)

  Gurden, Harold

  Maudling, Rt. Hon. Reginald

  reeling, Sir William

  346

  347

  Temple, John M.

  Vaughan-Morgan, Rt. Hon. Sir John

  Wills, Sir Gerald (Bridgwater)

  Thatcher, Mrs. Margaret

  Vickers, Miss Joan

  Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

  Thomas, Sir Leslie (Canterbury)

  Vosper, Rt. Hon, Dennis

  Wise, A. R.

  Thompson, Sir Kenneth (Walton)

  Wakefield, Sir Wavell

  Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick

  Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)

  Walder, David

  Wood, Rt. Hon. Richard

  Thorneycroft, Rt. Hon. Peter

  Walker, Peter

  Woodhouse, C. M.

  Thornton-Kemsley, Sir Colin

  Walker-Smith, Rt. Hon. Sir Derek

  Woodnutt, Mark

  Tiley, Arthur (Bradford, W.)

  Wall, Patrick

  Woollam, John

  Tilney, John (Wavertree)

  Ward, Dame Irene

  Worsley, Marcus

  Touche, Rt. Hon. Sir Gordon

  Watkinson, Rt. Hon. Harold

  Yates, William (The Wrekin)

  Turner, Colin

  Webster, David

  Turton, Rt. Hon. R. H.

  Wells, John (Maidstone)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

  Tweedsmuir, Lady

  Whitelaw, William

  Mr. Chichester-Clark and

  van Straubenzee, W. R.

  Williams, Dudley (Exeter)

  Mr. Finlay.

  Vane, W. M. F.

  Williams, Paul (Sunderland, S.)

  NOES

  Abse, Leo

  Foot, Michael (Ebbw Vale)

  MacPherson, Malcolm (Stirling)

  Ainsley, William

  Forman, J. C.

  Mahon, Simon

  Albu, Austen

  Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton)

  Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg)

  Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

  George, Lady Megan Lloyd (Crmrthn)

  Mallalieu, J.P.W. (Huddersfield, E.)

  Awbery, Stan (Bristol Central)

  Ginsburg, David

  Manuel, Archie

  Bacon, Miss Alice

  Gooch, E. G.

  Mapp, Charles

  Baird, John

  Gordon Walker, Rt. Hon. P. C.

  Marsh, Richard

  Barnett, Guy

  Gourlay, Harry

  Mason, Roy

  Baxter, William (Stirlingshire, W.)

  Greenwood, Anthony

  Mayhew, Christopher

  Beaney, Alan

  Grey, Charles

  Mellish, R. J.

  Bellenger, Rt. Hon. F. J.

  Griffiths, David (Rother Valley)

  Mendelson, J. J.

  Bence, Cyril

  Griffiths, Rt. Hon. James (Llanelly)

  Millan, Bruce

  Bennett, J. (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

  Griffiths, W. (Exchange)

  Milne, Edward

  Benson, Sir George

  Grimond, Rt. Hon, J.

  Mitchison, G. R.

  Blackburn, F.

  Gunter, Ray

  Moody, A. S.

  Blyton, William

  Hale, Leslie (Oldham, W.)

  Morris, John

  Boardman, H.

  Hamilton, William (West Fife)

  Moyle, Arthur

  Bottomley, Rt. Hon. A. G.

  Hannan, William

  Mulley, Frederick

  Bowden, Rt. Hn. H.W. (Leics, S.W.)

  Harper, Joseph

  Neal, Harold

  Bowen, Roderic (Cardigan)

  Hart, Mrs. Judith

  Noel-Baker, Francie (Swindon)

  Bowles, Frank

  Hayman, F. H.

  Noel-Baker, Rt. Hn. Philip (Derby, S.)

  Boyden, James

  Healey, Denis

  Oliver, G. H.

  Braddock, Mrs. E. M.

  Henderson, Rt. Hn. Arthur (Rwly Regis)

  Oram A. E.

  Bradley, Tom

  Hewitson, Capt. M.

  Oswald, Thomas

  Bray, Dr. Jeremy

  Hilton, A. V.

  Owen, Will

  Brockway, A. Fenner

  Holman, Percy

  Padley, W. E.

  Broughton, Dr. A. D. D.

  Holt, Arthur

  Paget, R. T.

  Brown, Rt. Hon. George (Belper)

  Hooson, H. E.

  Pannell, Charles (Leeds, W.)

  Brown, Thomas (Ince)

  Houghton, Douglas

  Pargiter, G. A.

  Butler, Herbert (Hackney, C.)

  Howell, Charles A. (Perry Barr)

  Parker, John

  Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)

  Howell, Denis (Small Heath)

  Parkin, B. T.

  Callaghan, James

  Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglesey)

  Paton, John

  Carmichael, Neil

  Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire)

  Pavitt, Laurence

  Castle, Mrs. Barbarra

  Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

  Pearson, Arthur (Pontypridd)

  Chapman, Donald

  Hunter, A. E.

  Peart, Frederick

  Cliffe, Michael

  Hynd, H. (Accrington)

  Pentland, Norman

  Collick, Percy

  Hynd, John (Attercliffe)

  Plummer, Sir Leslie

  Corbet, Mrs. Freda

  Irvine, A. J. (Edge Hill)

  Popplewell, Ernest

  Craddock, George (Bradford, S.)

  Irving, Sydney (Dartford)

  Prentice, R. E.

  Cronin, John

  Jay, Rt. Hon. Douglas

  Crosland, Anthony

  Jeger, George

  Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

  Crossman, R. H. S.

  Jenkins, Roy (Stechford)

  Probert, Arthur

  Cullen, Mrs. Alice

  Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)

  Proctor, W. T.

  Dalyell, Tam

  Jones, Rt. Hn. A. Creech (Wakefield)

  Pursey, Cmdr. Harry

  Darling, George

  Jones, Dan (Burnley)

  Rankin, John

  Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)

  Jones, Elwyn (West Ham, S.)

  Redhead, E. C.

  Davies, Harold (Leek)

  Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham)

  Reid, William

  Davies, Ifor (Gower)

  Jones, T. W. (Merioneth)

  Reynolds, G. W.

  Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)

  Kelley, Richard

  Rhodes, H.

  Deer, George

  Kenyon, Clifford

  Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

  Delargy, Hugh

  Key, Rt. Hon. C. W.

  Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon)

  Dempsey, James

  King, Dr. Horace

  Robertson, John (Paisley)

  Diamond, John

  Lawson, George

  Robinson, Kenneth (St. Pancras, N.)

  Dodds, Norman

  Ledger, Ron

  Rodgers, W. T. (Stockton)

  Donnelly, Desmond

  Lee, Frederick (Newton)

  Ross, William

  Driberg, Tom

  Lee, Miss Jennie (Cannock)

  Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E.

  Dugdale, Rt. Hon. John

  Lever, L. M. (Ardwick)

  Silverman, Julius (Aston)

  Ede, Rt. Hon. C.

  Lipton, Marcus

  Silverman, Sydney (Nelson)

  Edelman, Maurice

  Lubbock, Eric

  Skeffington, Arthur

  Edward, Rt. Hon. Ness (Caerphilly)

  Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

  Slater, Mrs. Harriet (Stoke, N.)

  Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

  McCann, John

  Slater, Joseph (Sedgefield)

  Edwards, Walter (Stepney)

  MacColl, James

  Small, William

  Evans, Albert

  MacDermot, Niall

  Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.)

  Finch, Harold

  McInnes, James

  Snow, Julian

  Fitch, Alan

  McKay, John (Wallsend)

  Sorensen, R. W.

  Fletcher, Eric

  Mackie, John (Enfield, East)

  Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank

  Foot, Dingle (Ipswich)

  McLeavy, Frank

  Spriggs, Leslie

  348

  349

  Steele, Thomas

  Timmons, John

  Williams, Ll. (Abertillery)

  Stewart, Michael (Fulham)

  Tomney, Frank

  Williams, W. R. (Openahaw)

  Stonehouse, John

  Wade Donald

  Willis, E. G. (Edinburgh, E.)

  Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R. (Vauxhall)

  Wainwright, Edwin

  Winterbottom, R. E.

  Stross, Dr. Barnett (Stoke-on-Trent, C.)

  Warbey, William

  Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A.

  Swingler, Stephen

  Watkins, Tudor

  Woof, Robert

  Taverne, D.

  Weitzman, David

  Wyatt, Woodrow

  Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield)

  Wells, William (Walsall, N.)

  Yates, Victor (Ladywood)

  Thomas, George (Cardiff, W.)

  White, Mrs. Elrene

  Zilliacus, K.

  Thomas, Iorwerth (Rhondda, W.)

  Whitlock, William

  Thompson, Dr. Alan (Dunfermline)

  Wigg, George

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

  Thomson, G. M. (Dundee, E.)

  Wilkins, W. A.

  Mr. Short and

  Thornton, Ernest

  Willey, Frederick

  Mr. G. H. R. Rogers.

  Thorpe, Jeremy

  Williams, D. J. (Neath)

  Resolved,
  That this House approves the Statement on Defence, 1963 contained Command Paper No. 1936

  DEFENCE
    BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
    Proceedings on the Purchase Tax Bill [Lords] exempted, at this day's Sitting, from the provisions of Standing Order No. 1 (Sittings of the House).—[Mr. Iain Macleod.]

  PURCHASE TAX BILL [Lords]
  Considered in Committee; reported, without Amendment.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That the Bill be now read the Third time.
  Mr. Douglas Houghton: I will not detain the House, but I think that from this side we should welcome very much this convenient job of work which has been done and thank those responsible for consolidating this complicated legislation.
  The Solicitor-General (Sir Peter Rawlinson): I am obliged to the hon. Member for Sowerby (Mr. Houghton), and I fully agree with him that this is a matter about which we should be obliged for what has been done by those responsible for consolidating this complicated legislation.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Bill accordingly read the Third time and passed, without Amendment.

  PURCHASE TAX BILL [Lords]

    LOCAL AUTHORITIES (LAND) [MONEY]
    Resolution reported,
    That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to make amendments of the law relating to functions of local authorities in relation to land to the like effect as those commonly made in local Acts; to enable local authorities to provide accommodation for keeping motor vehicles; to amend the provisions of the National Parks and Access to the Countryside Act 1949 relating to the treatment of derelict land; to amend the law with respect to the powers of municipal boroughs to use the general rate fund and borrow for non-statutory purposes; to apply Part H of the Town and Country Planning Act 1959 to corporate land; and for purposes connected with the matters aforesaid, it is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of any increase attributable to the provisions of the said Act of the present Session in the sums payable out of moneys so provided under any other enactment.
    Resolution agreed to.

COMMONWEALTH TRADE
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. G. Campbell.]
10.28 p.m.
Mr. Dan Jones: I have been prompted to raise this debate on the subject of Commonwealth trade on the instance of certain hon. Members on both sides of the House. This arises, chiefly from certain observations I made during the debate on unemployment which took place on 4th February. I was then moved to say that I had some criticisms of the export policy of the Government and of the industrialists in Britain, and that it was contributing to the unsatisfactory situation which we then faced. During that debate the Minister of Labour said,
"New markets and new techniques will constantly have to be sought after."—[OFFICLAL REPORT, 4th February, 1963; Vol. 670, c. 65.]
I agree completely with this observation except that I add, "Never mind about new markets being sought. I am not wholly convinced that existing markets are being properly developed."
To support this argument I want to quote the experiences which I had both in Ghana and Nigeria during October and November of last year. I feel that the House will forgive me if I repeat certain observations which I made and seek to fit certain details into them. I want to begin with the sense of dismay which I had at Accra when I watched the Volta High Dam being constructed by the Kaiser Company of America, assisted by an Italian consortium. When I was given to understand that the initial diving work had been done by a London company I naturally asked why British industrialists are not participating in the work. They are not participating in it. All I could get out of the visit was that we might participate in certain of the electrification later. I interrupt myself to say that I hope that such will be the case.
Coming to Lagos and to the excellently appointed locomotive works there, I was dismayed to note that all the fitments were from countries other than the United Kingdom. I was particularly dismayed when I realised that almost all of the superintendents there had been trained in the United Kingdom—quite a number of them in Lancashire.

353
I move to the new bridge linking East and West Nigeria, which will be a symbol in that part of the country. It is being built at Onitsha and it will mean a lot to that country in that East and West will be linked for the first time in the history of that growing country When I inquired who was building the bridge I found, again, that it was a consortium of Dutch and Italians. When I inquired about prices I was given to understand that the initial price had been £5¼ million but that it had already risen to £6½ million —and the reason for the increase, with the bridge not one-third completed, was that the bridge builders had not provided for high tides. I could not help thinking that Dorman Long would hardly have made such a faux pas as that.
I come to the very limited use of British cars which I observed throughout the whole of Nigeria, even when the cars were in the hands of our own British people, who I felt, and still feel, should have been setting an example. At the very least they should have been driving British cars. I am saying nothing here that I did not tell them. They replied that running a British car sounded all right but that the provision of spares was so bad that it could not be done. I do not know whether they are telling the truth, but it ought to be found out. When we analyse the figures for the import of cars into Nigeria they compel our very serious attention. In 1959 Nigeria imported cars to the amount of £11,080,720. In 1960 the figure was £6,751,307. The figure for 1961 was £6,529,535. These are most impressive figures, and I calculate that the proportion of those who run cars there is less than one in twenty, that is, of course, British cars.
There is a remarkable preponderance of bicycles in that country, but I found that British bicycles were in a minority. Nigeria imported £2,440,086 worth of bicycles in 1960 and £1,154,800 worth in 1961. We should bear in mind that this is not a matter merely of the manufacture of bicycles but of the amount of steel used and the amount of tube manipulation work involved. I discussed with several Nigerians the idea, which they found completely acceptable, that British manufacturers should produce a utility machine instead of the
354
rather elaborate machine expected of them in this country. If these machines were painted in the variety of bright colours which the Nigerians particularly like, we should have a market there for this country which at the moment is very much under-developed.
British builders make no contribution to the building programmes which are being carried out in all parts of Nigeria. I would refer again to observations I made to Lord Head at Lagos when I was asked for my views and I told him that I was not happy about the situation. I expected him to defend things as they were, but he did nothing of the kind. I give full marks to him. He said that the position was as bad as I had found it. When, for example, it was desired to extend certain British administrative offices, it was found that certain tenders could not be obtained and the work was given to an Italian firm, Del Cappa, at a cost of £76,000. This kind of thing is not conducive to developing our export trade as we are entitled to see it developed.
As to the conference at Lagos, I have to say with truth and a certain sense of dismay that the whole conference seemed to make up its mind that the United Kingdom was entering the Common Market. Those who attended the conference were terribly upset about it. Since there was in this country a substantial body of opinion which disagreed with United Kingdom entry into the E.E.C., I felt that that disagreement should be expressed. I therefore made what I thought was a mundane contribution, asking the conference to believe that the Commonwealth had many friends in the United Kingdom who believed that entry into the E.E.C. could be acceptable only on certain terms, chief of which was the preservation of our Commonwealth interests.
At the end of the conference I was simply inundated with Commonwealth delegates. These were not ordinary delegates. Many of them were Ministers, among them Mr. Sterling Lyon, the Attorney-General and Minister of Public Utility in Manitoba. He told me that Canada had a tremendous desire to trade with us. I asked whether I could quote him and he agreed. We are Manitoba's best customers, but apparently the situation does not work in reverse. I am given to understand, I

355
hope reliably, that grain ships come to this country and travel back in ballast. It is eminently sensible that we should examine the question of developing our trade with these people and ensuring that the ships return with produce from the United Kingdom.
Good will is an indispensable factor in relations between any people. I refer now to the Amalgamated Engineering Union, of which I am a member. It might be wondered what a trade union has to do with our export trade. I will try to explain. In 1957, the Amalgamated Engineering Union took a decision that made a tremendous impact over the whole continent of Africa. In that year, the union severed 22,623 members in the Union of South Africa from United Kingdom membership because of the practice by that country of racial discrimination. In 1961, when the membership had been in existence for 66 years, we did precisely the same with our membership in Southern Rhodesia, totalling 2,000 people. My impression when talking to Nigerians about this was that they felt that those facts, showing that the United Kingdom had feelings of this kind towards those countries, should be more widely known and more generally understood, to promote the good will which is indispensable in trading.
I mentioned to one of the trade ministers at Enugu my misgivings about trade with various countries. I told him of my dismay that although the United Kingdom was quite good enough to teach their children the three Rs, quite good enough to teach them Christian religion, to nurse their sick in the hospitals and, indeed, to undertake research to make their fine country more habitable, we were not, apparently, good enough to participate in their economic development.
The Minister did not, as I thought he might, take umbrage. Indeed, he admitted that that was true. When I asked why, his reply, which still rings in my ears, was that "We do not trade as we formerly did, and as we could do now, because you have no faith in us." I leave that statement in that setting, but I consider that this position should be looked at much more closely. I am convinced that if the Minister of State's call for new markets and new techniques is con-
356
stantly to be followed up, our existing markets had better be developed.
I impress upon Her Majesty's Government the tremendous need for the setting up of a Commonwealth Exports Council on the same lines as the European Export Council if we are to save the industrial situation. We could do this in a way that would be satisfactory to us all by developing our manufactures and selling them in the markets abroad.
10.44 p.m.
Mr. James Callaghan: I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Burnley (Mr. D. Jones), as, I think, other hon. Members would wish to do, on raising this important topic. I push again the suggestion made by my hon. Friend for a Commonwealth Export Council. This idea is not novel. I put it to the Minister in a debate a month ago, when we were given no answer. It is now time to have the result of the Minister's consideration. There is no doubt that the Dollar Exports Council and the European Exports Council have had an effect in diverting exports. There is trade in the Commonwealth just waiting for us to pick it up. If we had a concentration of effort on Commonwealth trade similar to the concentration we have had upon dollar trade and European trade, we could get a great deal more than we have now.
In this country today, much of our heavy engineering industry and our steel industry is running below capacity. I am certain that we ought to be considering seriously the granting of long-term credits to the developing countries of the Commonwealth, countries such as India and Pakistan, so as to enable them to develop their own industries and get the basic structure of their life on a sound foundation. We cannot emphasise too much that, by raising the standard of life of the developing countries and helping to get their industries going, we shall help our own exporting industries. This is enlightened self-interest on our part. We cast our bread upon the waters, and it will certainly return to us.
At a time when our own exporting industries are lagging and suffering from unemployment and short time, this is the moment when we should consider once again our financial arrangements with these countries and help them to help

357
themselves, so that, in due course, they will help us.
I am grateful to the Minister of State for allowing me this time, and I am grateful to my hon. Friend for raising this important topic.
10.46 p.m.
The Minister of State, Board of Trade (Mr. Alan Green): l accept at once that the development of Commonwealth trade by whatever means are open to us is an entirely desirable, proper, honourable and constructive thing to achieve.
May I first deal with the major point made by the hon. Member for Cardiff, South-East (Mr. Callaghan). I mean no disrespect to the hon. Member for Burnley (Mr. D. Jones), who is in some respects a close neighbour of mine and with whom I have always had and I trust will have good personal relations.
The hon. Member for Cardiff, South-East knows that we do grant massive credits and massive loans to developing countries within the Commonwealth. The only possible question is whether we do enough and, perhaps, whether we tie the aid which we give sufficiently closely to certain chosen industries in this country. These are matters for debate, but I think that the hon. Gentleman will agree that, today, as we have always done not only under Conservative Governments but under Labour Governments, we give massive aid to the developing countries of the Commonwealth. It might be said that we should do more. It can certainly be said, and I think agreed on both sides, that we do a very great deal in this respect.
Hon. Members will not mind if I put back to them a point which anyone calling for an increase in trade between this country and developing countries must take on board and really face. I put it particularly, and without malice aforethought, to the hon. Member for Burnley, because here lies a burning local issue in Lancashire which must be faced with great honesty—more honesty than it often receives—if our whole approach to the developing countries is to be really fruitful.
If we are to help these countries, as I trust we are—in the terms used by the hon. Member for Cardiff, South-East—to get their industries going so that their standards of life are raised, in our mutual interest, we must not refuse to take the
358
goods which they produce. It distresses me at times to hear the two contradictory propositions advanced, that, on the one hand, we should give more and more aid to develop industries in the Commonwealth, and, on the other, when their goods come here, that we should cut back on their exports to us. The hon. Member for Burnley will not mind my saying that, because he is an honest man. This is a problem he himself faces in his own constituency, as I face it in mine. We must not run away from it. We must not shut our eyes to it. Otherwise, we shall not achieve a fruitful outcome from whatever we do.
Mr. D. Jones: I know what is in the hon. Gentleman's mind, and I am prepared to face up to it. But surely the point is that all this argument hardly applies to automobiles, to building and to bicycles. These constitute avenues which seem to be completely unexploited, and I wish that the hon. Gentleman would direct the impetus of his remarks in that direction.
Mr. Green: I propose to do so, but in seeking for the general it is very important not to evade the particular. This aspect is very important. If a local interest in this country is affected when a Commonwealth industry is built up, and therefore there is too much resistance to that industry being built up, then that Commonwealth industry will not be built up. I hope that I am not being awkward, but I ask him to face the facts that I am trying, in all honesty, to represent.
The hon. Member chose to concentrate primarily on Nigeria and Ghana within the general framework of Commonwealth trade. As he said, he recently visited both countries. No doubt they made a vivid impression on his mind. He will not mind my reminding him that I also visited them at almost the same time with the express purpose of seeing in what way, if possible, we could further advance the economic interests of Nigeria and Ghana.
I was a little surprised to hear him give certain instances of apparent British failures to secure contracts or to push particular sales, and he mentioned the Volta Dam in Ghana. I respectfully remind him that it would have been just as well to mention also the Tema harbour and the great work entrusted to British contractors, admirably carried through

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and managed. It might be a good idea, in order to give encouragement to those who are doing for Britain a very great deal of constructive and useful work in both these countries, to mention these things.
Perhaps it would be no bad thing to remind the House and perhaps some of our detractors abroad that the first and most important thing we do for Nigeria is to buy, almost duty-free, 45 per cent. of her total exports. Is this not a very good thing to say? Should we not reproach ourselves if we did not put first what we are doing for Nigeria, and I hope will go on doing?
I was very impressed by the great interest shown by all the British construction companies with which I have come in contact in their desire to secure British construction work in those countries. I will not quote Lord Head back at the hon. Member because I have not his permission, but it would not be fair to suggest that British construction firms are not interested in these two countries. They are deeply interested.
We should bear something else in mind. As I have said, we buy 45 per cent. of Nigeria's total exports and they are conscious of this and grateful. They are far from being distressed. I found them very co-operative and friendly for all that we are doing for them. This is a point worth making and the House would wish me to make it, for it is true.
Of course, Nigeria with 40 million people and an enormous territory and all the development requirements in the world needs world-wide help, and I would not like to go on record as saying that she should have only British help. I think that she needs help from all developed and developing Western countries, and I think that all the developing members of the British Commonwealth need that help too from as many sources as possible, but the help they most need is the help that it seems we alone among the Western countries most truly provide, and that is an open market.
If we could get other developed Western countries to give the same kind of market treatment to African countries as we afford, we should really strike a bigger blow for these developing countries than almost any single kind of grant or aid or supply of bicycles, or whatever
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it is, could strike. This would be something constructive for them. We are setting an example here, and I believe that we are entitled, without being complacent about it, to a little recognition for doing this.
I perhaps might be permitted to remind the hon. Gentleman that in Nigeria the oil development, which is very substantial by Nigerian standards, involves British investments of about £80 million. The hon. Gentleman might perhaps set this in the scales of the bridge, and I invite him to do so. There are many other instances which show that British industry, British enterprise, and British Government activity is truly directed towards helping these countries.
Of course I want more, and here I might perhaps be permitted to make one plea. I do not know that it will go to a very wide audience, but I am glad of the chance of making it. When I came back from visiting these two countries, I made a strong point of inviting British business men to go and visit them, because in my view, for certain kinds of business, there were very good fields for further British investment, and I am glad to repeat that plea now.
These countries do not necessarily suit all kinds of Western organised commercial operations, but they suit many kinds, and of course the business man can only find out whether it suits him if he goes to the country and finds out for himself, and this I hope he will do.
I shall consider the idea of a Commonwealth Export Council, but I know that hon. Members appreciate that the Commonwealth is so diverse, its stages of development are so different, and the needs in each country are so very different, that it is doubtful whether the concept of a Western European Export Council to a homogeneous market applies to a Commonwealth Export Council market. We are to meet the Commonwealth Trade Ministers at the earliest possible date, and we shall discuss this idea and any other constructive ideas that are put forward, but do not let us lose sight of the fact that the Commonwealth is immensely diverse, and that what suits Western Europe or America as a form of organisation for exports does not necessarily suit the whole of the Commonwealth.
Mr. D. Jones: I should like to go on record as saying that although I referred specifically to Nigeria, and to a lesser degree to Ghana—
The Question having been proposed after Ten o'clock and the debate having
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Continued for half an hour, Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
Adjourned at one minute to Eleven o'clock.

PUBLIC BUILDING AND WORKS
  Ancient Monuments and Historic Buildings
  Ancient Monuments and Historic Buildings
  Construction Industries, North-East
  Construction Industries, North-East
WIRELESS AND TELEVISION
  Reception, Northern Ireland
  Reception, Northern Ireland
  Licence Revenue
  Licence Revenue
POST OFFICE
  Delayed Letters, Leicester
  Delayed Letters, Leicester
  Giro System
  Giro System
TELEPHONE SERVICE
  Elderly Persons
  Elderly Persons
  Canterbury
  Canterbury
  Dearne Valley
  Dearne Valley
  Dundee and East Central Directory
  Dundee and East Central Directory
SCIENCE
  Pressurised Water Reactor (Marine Propulsion)
  Pressurised Water Reactor (Marine Propulsion)
  Less Developed Countries (Science and Technology)
  Less Developed Countries (Science and Technology)
  Scientists (International Exchanges)
  Scientists (International Exchanges)
  Congenital Abnormalities and Malformations (Research)
  Congenital Abnormalities and Malformations (Research)
  Steam Generating Heavy Water Reactor (Prototype)
  Steam Generating Heavy Water Reactor (Prototype)
  Water-Cooled Reactor (Canadian Development)
  Water-Cooled Reactor (Canadian Development)
  University Research (Grants)
  University Research (Grants)
  A.E.I. Research Laboratories, Aldermaston
  A.E.I. Research Laboratories, Aldermaston
NORTH-EAST
  Sporting Facilities (Grants)
  Sporting Facilities (Grants)
NATIONAL FINANCE
  Scientific Research Resources
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  Furniture Industry
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  Post-War Credits
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  Defence White Papers
  Defence White Papers
SWAZILAND
  Immigration
  Immigration
HONG KONG
  Kuo Min-tang Agents
  Kuo Min-tang Agents
FEDERATION OF SOUTH ARABIA
  Beihan State
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MALTA
  Unemployed Persons
  Unemployed Persons
  PRESIDENT KENNEDY
  PRESIDENT KENNEDY
SOMALIA
  Somalis (Kenya)
  Somalis (Kenya)
  ROYAL COMMISSIONS
  ROYAL COMMISSIONS
  Anti-British Demonstrations
  Anti-British Demonstrations
ROYAL NAVY
  Civilians
  Civilians
EDUCATION
  Library Service Units
  Library Service Units
LOCAL GOVERNMENT
  Betting Shop, Croydon (Planning Application)
  Betting Shop, Croydon (Planning Application)
  Control of Advertisement Regulations (Appeals)
  Control of Advertisement Regulations (Appeals)
  North-East Regional Office
  North-East Regional Office
EMPLOYMENT
  Leeds
  Leeds
  Sutton-in-Ashfield (Hosiery and Knitwear Workers)
  Sutton-in-Ashfield (Hosiery and Knitwear Workers)
TECHNICAL CO-OPERATION
  Teachers (Commonwealth Countries)
  Teachers (Commonwealth Countries)
TRADE AND COMMERCE
  Balance of Trade
  Balance of Trade
SHIPPING
  North Atlantic Passenger Liner
  North Atlantic Passenger Liner
TRANSPORT
  Future Demands (Report)
  Future Demands (Report)
ROADS
  Maintenance Expenditure
  Maintenance Expenditure
  Traffic Signs (Committee's Report)
  Traffic Signs (Committee's Report)

Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Birmingham

BRITAIN AND COMMONWEALTH TRADE
2.35 p.m.
LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether in the interest of Commonwealth trade expansion they are willing to initiate some amendment to the GATT "No new preference" rule and to the freezing of existing preferences at present levels, thus making possible negotiation of mutually advantageous bilateral agreements between Britain and Commonwealth Governments.]
THE MINISTER OF STATE, BOARD OF TRADE (LORD DERWENT): No, my Lords. When the question of amending the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade to allow the creation of new preferences has been considered by Commonwealth Governments, as it was at the Commonwealth Conference of 1952, there has been general agreement that it would be neither desirable nor feasible to seek to revise the present rule. The Montreal Conference in 1958, while affirming that the preferential system should be continued, declared that the Commonwealth would continue to work in no exclusive spirit towards a multilateral trade and payments system over the widest possible area.
Apart from the difficulty of persuading countries outside the Commonwealth to accept an extension of the preferential system, it would have difficult implications. As nearly all imports from the Commonwealth enter Britain duty free, we could not increase the preferences which they enjoy on those duty-free goods without imposing or raising duties
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on imports of raw materials and foodstuffs from foreign countries. Conversely, Commonwealth countries could increase their preferences for British goods only by raising the duties they charge on imports from foreign countries or reducing the protection afforded to their own industries. We have had useful bilateral agreements with a number of Commonwealth countries for many years. In the Government's view there are many ways of expanding Commonwealth trade to our mutual advantage within the GATT rules, and the meeting of Commonwealth Trade Ministers which it is proposed to hold before the GATT session in May will provide an opportunity for discussion of these matters.
LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE: My Lords, while thanking the Minister for his comprehensive reply, may I ask him two questions? Is it not a fact that, at the Conferences the Minister has mentioned, Her Majesty's Government gave no lead in any proposed amendment of GATT, and is it not a fact that the views he has expressed were not unanimous views of the various members? Secondly, is not the Minister's reply in effect a clear declaration, in spite of brave words spoken, that Her Majesty's Government take the view that no special measures can be taken to stimulate Commonwealth trade, such as increased preferences, but that it must be left to expand as part of the growth of world multilateral trade?
LORD DERWENT: My Lords, I think my noble friend is under something of a misapprehension. Other Commonwealth countries have shown no enthusiasm at all for increasing the margins of preference. In 1947, Canada, for example, secured her release from guarantees of certain margins of preference in her bilateral trade agreement with the United Kingdom. In 1957 and 1959 respectively Australia and New Zealand renegotiated their bilateral trade agreements with the United Kingdom and secured the right to reduce substantially existing margins of preference on our goods. My noble friend said there was no unanimous opinion. In my view there was a unanimous opinion that they did not want the present margins extended, and Her Majesty's Government feel that there are many other ways of stimulating Commonwealth trade and,

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in particular, that if we can get worldwide agreements, Commonwealth trade will be extensively helped.
THE EARL OF SWINTON: My Lords, may I ask the Minister two questions? First of all, as regards unanimity—I am not disagreeing with a good deal of what he said—was it not the fact that, in 1951, at the Commonwealth Conference I myself, on behalf of the British Government, proposed that GATT should be reopened and preference should be extended, and that there was only one Commonwealth country who would lend any support to that proposition? I think perhaps it is fair to have that on the Record. But may I ask the Minister this? While I would not dissent from his statement that you could not reopen the whole question of Imperial preference—doubtless you would not get much support if you tried to do so—what would be the position in a general round in which we were trying to look forward if a large number of countries, Commonwealth and others, were anxious to make a trade arrangement which would facilitate trade between them, but a number of other countries—I can think of one in particular—relying upon GATT, said, "No. We are going to have a veto upon that"? Could we make an agreement with all the consenting countries, or should we be prevented by GATT? If we found we were prevented by GATT, then ought we not to try to get GATT amended or to take steps, joining with all these other countries, to say, "All right, we will have a new GATT". Is that not possible?
LORD DERWENT: My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for telling me about his initiative in 1951. I was not actually aware of it, and, of course, it bears out what I have been saying. I think I might at this stage say to my noble friend that the further question which he has asked, although we will take very careful note of what it implies, is far beyond the Question on the Order Paper.
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, in view of the disturbing trends of Commonwealth trade, may I ask the noble Lord this question? The Minister will correct me if I am wrong, but I think that for the first time there was a deficit in trade between this country
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and the Commonwealth for the first six months of this year, to the tune of £29 million. In view of the changed circumstances, the fact that this country cannot enter the Common Market, would the noble Lord ensure that the Commonwealth countries, not only the Governments but the trading organisations and those in this country, have a clear understanding of the proposals the Government have for the expansion of Commonwealth trade?
LORD DERWENT: My Lords, the expansion of Commonwealth trade is reviewed from time to time—one might almost say continuously—not necessarily at ministerial level, though sometimes at ministerial level. I would again remind the noble Lord of what I said: that there is to be a GATT meeting in May and that shortly before that the Commonwealth Trade Ministers will be meeting, when these points will be discussed. I do not think I can anticipate how those discussions will go.
LORD SHEPHERD: But the Minister has said that the Government have ideas about how Commonwealth trade can be extended. Would he not agree that in the present circumstances it would be very beneficial to the Commonwealth, and also for the people of this country, if we knew what the Government's proposals were?
LORD DERWENT: My Lords, I think it is quite proper that these proposals should first of all be made to the other Commonwealth countries at this meeting of Ministers.
LORD OGMORE: My Lords, while welcoming the Free Trade disposition of the Minister as shown by him to-day, may I ask him whether it is not a fact that most Commonwealth countries are now trying to develop their trade outside the Commonwealth, and for this reason is it not sensible that we should try to extend world-wide trade, rather than trade between this country and the other countries of the Commonwealth?
LORD DERWENT: My Lords, I think that is what I have already said, and I entirely agree with the noble Lord. It will be much better if we can get worldwide trade expanded; and this is, of course, the line on which we are going at the present time.
EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, if this is so, how does the Minister expect that we shall be able adequately to maintain inside the Commonwealth all the other beneficial relationships which have been built up for a couple of centuries with those on whom alone perhaps in the world we can safely rely to come to our assistance?
LORD DERWENT: My Lords, surely the noble Earl fully realises that under the GATT arrangement we are allowed to maintain existing preferences.
EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, I was dealing with the words the Minister used. I would ask him to look at them in the morning.
2.44 p.m.
LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE: My Lords, beg leave to ask the second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether their trade policy permits acceptance of Commonwealth agricultural primary products and citrus fruits on long-term quantity agreements in return for compensating advantages to British manufactures exported to those territories.]
LORD DERWENT: My Lords, Her Majesty's Government attach great importance to expanding trade with Commonwealth countries. I do not know if noble Lords opposite object to that statement. Her Majesty's Government have no objection in principle to long-term quantity agreements provided that they are commercially advantageous. But world-wide agreements about international trade and primary products, if they can be achieved, will be of greater benefit to the Commonwealth than arrangements on a narrower scale. As I have already mentioned to the noble Lord, the Commonwealth countries have themselves declared their intention of working for a multilateral trade system. We, for our part, are prepared to take part in international discussions of these matters provided that the proposals are fair alike to producers and consumers.
LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE: My Lords, is the Minister aware that I had in mind the West Indies in this
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particular case? And when he says—and I think I remember his words—"commercially advantageous" does he mean commercially advantageous to Britain alone or to Britain and her partners: that is to say, the West Indies?
LORD DERWENT: My Lords, I imagine that my noble friend is referring to citrus in the West Indies. He will remember that in his Question he did mention "compensating advantages". Perhaps I may expand my answer on the citrus position in the West Indies. Imports of grapefruit and citrus products into Britain from the British West Indies are protected by the quantitive restrictions imposed on imports from dollar sources, particularly from the United States. These quantitive restrictions are imposed contrary to our international obligations under GATT and we have said that we hope to remove them eventually. It would be difficult to enter into long-term agreements to import citrus from the West Indies in quantities attractive to the producers without being obliged, in effect, to continue throughout the term of the agreement these quantitive agreements, which, as I say, are really outside the terms of GATT now. It is not easy to see—and this refers to the Question on the Order Paper—what compensatory advantages for our exports could be offered by the West Indies, who already give them preference.
LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE: My Lords, may I thank my noble friend for his replies and inform him that I am afraid that they are profoundly disappointing to a large number of people, not least the section of the Party to which he and I belong?
LORD DERWENT: My Lords, I am, of course, quite aware that my noble friend does not agree with Her Majesty's Government on this matter.
EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, is the Minister aware that we are very glad to be able to say, so far as the Labour Party are concerned, that if they are returned to power they will renew negotiations for bulk purchase?
LORD OGMORE: My Lords, may I say on behalf of the Liberal Party that we strongly support the Minister in his attitude on this matter?
LORD DERWENT: My Lords, I am grateful to a part of the Opposition.

DEFENCE POLICY WHITE PAPER
2.48 p.m.
EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, I should like to ask Her Majesty's Government the following Question of which I have given Private Notice:
To request Her Majesty's Government, in view of the statements of the Minister of Defence in another place yesterday, immediately to lay a White Paper for Parliament covering the whole of their Defence policy, so as to give time for it to be studied before the debate on defence in this House on March 13 next.
THE FIRST LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY (LORD CARRINGTON): My Lords, the statements made by my right honourable friend were in a very general form, and therefore I do not think it would serve a useful purpose to present them in a White Paper at this stage. My right honourable friend promised that further detailed proposals would be placed before Parliament in the summer. Apart from this, as I said in reply to a Question by the noble Earl last week, there have been no fundamental changes in our Defence policy, and therefore Her Majesty's Government see no need to add to the Statement on Defence, 1963, Command 1936, published on February 20.
EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord, the First Lord of the Admiralty, whether he is aware that this only confirms our view of the growing contempt which the Government have for Parliament? It is happening in case after case. We are to have no Economic Survey this year: it is not necessary. Or are they short of white paper? We have had difficulties in many other directions, and here we now have a deliberate attempt, it seems to us, to evade proper cross-examination on the Defence policy of the Government, in that we have no real statement by the Minister of Defence and the Government come in at the last moment with completely new, detailed views about reorganisation of the Ministry of Defence with no prior notice or detailed White Paper. They did not treat Parliament like that in 1958. Why should they now? Why bring Parliament into contempt?
LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, nobody would be more critical or surprised than the noble Earl the Leader of the Opposition if the Government brought in an entirely new Defence policy every year in the middle of February just because it happened to be the middle of February. Last year the Government produced a Defence White Paper looking forward over the next five years, and there have been no fundamental changes in the Government's policy since then. With regard to the second question, the question of the proposals which were outlined by my right honourable friend in another place yesterday, as I have said they were in very general form, and there is, of course, no reason why they should not be discussed—indeed there is every reason why they should be—and the Government will want to know the views of all Parties and organisations concerned, including your Lordships.
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, in view of the fact that the general proposals of the Minister of Defence given yesterday appeared in the Daily Express of yesterday morning, can the noble Lord say whether that report was "leaked" to that paper, or was it a question again that the security within the Defence Ministry is at stake?
LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, I am glad to say that I am not responsible for what appears in the Daily Express.
LORD MORRISON OF LAMBETH: My Lords, surely it was the case that the Minister of Defence yesterday made a statement about the future organisation of the Defence Departments which he must have thought about before he made it. Was not Parliament entitled to know, in advance of that statement, the ideas of the Government, whether general or specific, so that honourable Members in another place could have been forewarned as to what was coming? And if your Lordships are going to have a debate within a fortnight, surely we ought to have information as to what the general statement of the Minister meant. Surely the Minister has not made a general statement without knowing how it is to be applied. Is it not the case that newspapers this morning are making a number of contradictory guesses as to what it all means?—and I do not blame them.

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Surely my noble friend the Leader of the Opposition is right in saying that it is not treating Parliament with proper respect when the Government refuse to give information and now refuse to inform us on the application of the information that was given yesterday on a matter of vital national importance.
THE EARL OF SWINTON: My Lords before the noble Lord answers might I put this question? Is not this proliferation of White Papers a more or less recent development, and has it not traditionally been the practice of all Governments that great Government pronouncements of policy have in the past, and most conveniently, been made by statements either by the Prime Minister or by the Minister most directly concerned? Has there not frequently been criticism, not least from the other side of the House, that where a White Paper is put forward which contains more than the most jejune objective statements but no justification, that is an improper thing to put in a White Paper and ought to be in the ministerial statement?
EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, may I ask particularly that we first have an answer to my noble friend's question before the noble Lord considers the details of the speech just made?
LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, I entirely agree with what my noble friend has said. That seems to me an exact statement of the position. It seems to me—and I say it with great deference to the noble Earl, because he is a great expert—that it is rather novel to say it is improper for the Government to make an important statement to the House of Commons. I thought that was exactly what its purpose was. Certainly my right honourable friend the Minister of Defence thought that in a matter of this constitutional significance the House of Commons was the proper forum, and that he should make his statement on the Floor of that House. I am afraid that I do not quite see what the noble Lord, Lord Morrison of Lambeth, or the noble Earl, Lord Alexander of Hillsborough, have to complain about, since they have seen the statement which my right honourable friend made in another place yesterday and they have ample time to consider it and read it before the debate next week.
EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, I would say at once, in reply to that, that the general statement—described as "general" by the First Lord himself—does not give anything like the details which ought to accompany the ground covered yesterday by the statement of the Minister of Defence. It ought to include an explanation of what it means in every respect to the three Service Departments. It is quite improper for him to have evaded his responsibilites to Parliament in the manner he has done. Nor do I accept at all that there has been no change from the policy of the last White Paper. There have been very considerable changes in the last twelve months. If the noble Lord, the First Lord of the Admiralty, would have a look at what is going to be the future of the Royal Air Force as a result of the changes, perhaps that will help him.
LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, I think the noble Earl is mistaken on both counts. My right honourable friend made it quite clear yesterday that certain decisions, in principle about reorganisation of Defence, had been taken, and that later on in the summer further details would be given to Parliament. He was giving advance notice of what it was intended to do. Discussion will take place between now and the summer, when further details will be given.
EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord to note—and perhaps other noble Lords may take notice—that, if this is to be the kind of practice adopted in the future by the Government, they must not complain if the next Government, when they come in, follow suit.
BARONESS HORSBRUGH: My Lords, does my noble friend not think that if all statements are to be made by White Paper and not in debate, then the country as a whole, and the Press, will discuss everything before Members of this House and the other have time to discuss it? If we continue a policy of simply putting out White Papers, or replies from the Opposition to the White Papers, shall we conduct Parliamentary work simply on a correspondence basis?
LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, I quite agree with my noble friend. I think sometimes it is better to do it one way, and sometimes another.
EARL ATTLEE: My Lords, is it not a fact that for at least thirty years we have had Statements on Defence and that that practice was introduced just to avoid the very scrappy debates on Defence which we used to have when it was all purely departmental; and therefore we have been led to expect, in a Statement on Defence, a major statement on policy? It is rather an extraordinary thing that Members having a White Paper given to them by the Government on which to consider the debate should suddenly be met by something entirely different, of which no hint has been given. I suggest that that is contrary to the ordinary courtesy to Parliament.
LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, I do not think so. The White Paper in 1962 looked forward five years. There has been no fundamental change in Defence policy since then. The only matter of real significance has been the Nassau Agreement, and there has been a White Paper on the Nassau Agreement; indeed there was a two-day debate on it in another place, although we did not have one in your Lordships' House.
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, will the noble Lord say, if there is any validity in the points made in the two questions put to him from his own side, whether he will inquire as to how a statement made by the Minister of Defence yesterday was "leaked" to a newspaper which published that report practically exactly yesterday morning?
LORD CARRINGTON: Yes; I certainly will make inquiries.
LORD MORRISON OF LAMBETH: My Lords, are we to understand that the Government came to a general conclusion about the future organisation of the Defence Ministry and other Departments without considering how they were going to implement it? Did the noble Lord not say that they have come only to a general conclusion, that the Minister made only a general statement, and that its application and details will be worked out later? Is it good government to come to a broad conclusion first and then find out how you are going to implement it afterwards?
LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, I should have thought that it was extremely courteous of my right honourable friend
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the Minister of Defence, and deferential to Parliament, that he made the earliest possible announcement of his intentions to another place.
EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, is not this just another example of what the noble Marquess, Lord Salisbury calls "shuffling along", instead of getting the job done?

B.B.C. INTERVIEW WITH M. BIDAULT
EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, I beg to ask another Question of which I have given Private Notice—namely, whether Her Majesty's Government will make a statement on the visit of M. Bidault to this country.
EARL ST. ALDWYN: My Lords, my noble friend Lord Jellicoe will be making a statement at some suitable moment after 3.30 p.m.

AGRICULTURE (MISCELLANEOUS PROVISIONS) BILL
3.1 p.m.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD (LORD ST. OSWALD): My Lords, I will move the Second Reading of this Bill as briefly as I can, but a measure of this kind inevitably spans a number of subjects, and I think your Lordships would expect me to deal fairly fully with the more important provisions, even though I may pass quite swiftly over the lesser clauses. The main purposes of this Bill can be regarded as, first, to introduce, or to continue, various forms of financial assistance to the agricultural industry; and, secondly, to bring about some necessary legislative changes, either to remove anomalies or to allow for new techniques that have evolved. Beyond this there are one or two other matters which call for legislation and which have been awaiting their place in a Bill of this kind.
The various clauses dealing with grants and subsidies are designed to improve the structure and general competitiveness of the industry and they

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compose a powerful reinforcement of Government support for farmers. Over the next five years an extra £78 million will be made available to the industry, whether by extending the life of some well-proven schemes, by replenishing the funds available for them, or by pioneering new schemes. Nearly half of this sum is made up of the extra £35 million proposed for the Farm Improvement Scheme under Clause 3—a most important clause, which I feel justified in taking a little out of its proper order.
I am sorry that the architect of that Scheme, the noble Viscount, Lord Amory, who was in London last week, cannot be with us to-day to hear me speak of its success. The Agriculture Act, 1957, which he introduced, provided £55 million for the one-third grants towards the cost of approved buildings and improvements. Lord Amory made it clear, when he launched the Scheme that this estimate was necessarily a speculative figure and that at that time he could not give definite undertakings as far as ten years ahead, although this was the period provided for in the Act.
Owing to the massive response from the industry, which exceeded all initial expectations, the £55 million that was originally provided is now nearing exhaustion, either in actual payments or in money that has been committed in approved proposals awaiting completion. Up to December 31, 1962, over 200,000 proposals had been approved in the United Kingdom. Most of the money had been invested in new or improved buildings, notably those for grain and fodder storage, for dairy premises, and for buildings for rearing and fattening cattle. But: some has also been invested in other forms of fixed equipment, such as farm roads and buildings, and in the provision of electricity. Holdings of all kinds and sizes have shared these benefits; and I think it is widely recognised that, whether by cutting costs or otherwise enhancing efficiency, these long-term improvements under the Scheme have played a major part in helping our farmers to put themselves in a stronger competitive position. Without giving any definite undertakings regarding the life of the Scheme in 1957, Lord Amory hoped that it would be possible to allow it free play for the ten years mentioned in the Act, and to permit the grant-aided im-
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provements to go forward without restraint. I am sure your Lordships will also wish this good work to go on. On that note perhaps I may leave the Farm Improvement Scheme and turn to Clauses 1 and 2, which take us into the hills, where the winter has been even harder than it has been for the rest of us.
Your Lordships will know of the two post-war Inquiries into the general condition of the hill farming industry. One Committee studied the problem in England and Wales, the other in Scotland, and their Reports have taken their place in agricultural history under the names of two distinguished Members of this House—the noble Earl, Lord De La Warr, and the noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Burleigh. In each case the Committees found that the hill areas needed an injection of capital, manpower and confidence. Over the years successive Governments have been backing up these Reports with special measures of assistance for hill farmers.
Clause 1 in the present Bill deals with the 50 per cent. grant towards comprehensive rehabilitation of farms in these hill areas. Your Lordships may recall the tribute to this scheme which was paid by the noble Baroness, Lady Elliot of Harwood, during our general debate on agriculture just over a year ago. In all, £27 million has been voted for the purpose and, as with the Farm Improvement Scheme, we are fast approaching the point where the whole of this sum will have been spent or committed. Unlike the Farm Improvement Scheme, however, this measure has already enjoyed a long run, and as far back as 1956 the closing date was announced as November 5, 1963. Farmers were told that they would be able to apply up to that date, by which time they will all have had a minimum of twelve years to put up proposals, and those in hill sheep farming areas will have had seventeen years. It would obviously be wrong to curtail the Scheme for lack of finance at this late stage, with but a few months to go, and Clause 1 provides a further £3 million to see it through.
Clause 2 provides for a straightforward four-year extension of our powers to make schemes for the hill cow and hill sheep subsidies; the former were designed to encourage the improvement of

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poor upland grazing and the establishment there of regular herds of beef breeding cows; while the latter help to maintain the basic foundation stocks of those hardy ewes from which a large and essential part of the national flock derives. Between them the two subsidies are costing at present about £6 million a year.
Next come two measures dealing with the fertiliser subsidy. Certain deserving classes of producer are at present ineligible for this subsidy because of the wording of the Agriculture (Fertilisers) Act, 1952. One of these classes is those mushroom growers who do not occupy agricultural land. The other is the producers of orchard crops and others who use foliar sprays. Clause 4 will qualify both classes for the subsidy. Clause 5 fulfils a long-standing pledge that we would take powers to obtain access to fertiliser suppliers' books. The object here is to strengthen our financial controls over this subsidy, which is currently running at over £30 million a year; and the effect of the clause is to confine payments to fertilisers bought from merchants who register with us and who undertake to give us access to their books.
Clauses 6 to 9 reflect the Government's policy of encouraging measures of self-help within the farming community. An industry made up of so many dispersed units has everything to gain from some pooling of its resources. The Bill acknowledges this by including grants, first for buildings which machinery syndicates use primarily for housing agricultural machinery or for drying, cleaning or storing their members' grain; secondly, for the central bodies which promote co-operation in agriculture; and thirdly, for projects conceived or sponsored by the industry itself towards research and development in marketing. These grants have been available for some time past, and the present object is simply to put them into permanent legislation instead of relying upon the annual Appropriation Act. I have myself, seen something of these machinery syndicates and producers' co-operatives at work in the last few months, and I was both impressed and encouraged by what I saw.
My Lords, I should also like to make two points about the provision for
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marketing in Clause 9. This is an important sector where we must fashion new ideas; and discover and exploit new techniques, if we are to hold our own in a developing world. We are looking to the industry to follow up the initiative its leaders have taken in promoting the Market Development Scheme; and to turn to good account the £1½ million grants with which the Government are backing it. My other point on Clause 9 is that since this Bill was first published the clause has been improved in another place by the addition of subsection (4). This brings in the usual safeguards for making and hearing representations before there is any question of recovering a grant.
That takes me to two grants which were foreshadowed in the White Paper following last year's Annual Review. One gives an incentive to the production of winter keep in livestock-rearing areas; the other to the renovation of permanent grassland. Together with the existing ploughing grant, these two new grants will help farmers to shape their tillage and grassland policies to better advantage according to the condition of the land and the economy of the holding. Clauses 10 to 12 are essentially enabling measures to pave the way for these new schemes to be laid before Parliament by statutory instrument. We shall first need to conclude our discussion with industry on the details, and to settle rates of grant at the Annual Review now in progress. Nevertheless, your Lordships may expect me to give an outline of what we have in mind.
The winter keep grant will apply to livestock-rearing land as defined in Section 1 of the Livestock Rearing Act, 1951, and to any land suitable for use with such land for livestock rearing purposes. Farmers on this land will still be able to choose the ploughing grant, instead of this new grant, if they wish to do so, but they will, of course, lose their entitlement to winter keep grant for a period of years. The winter keep grant will be an acreage grant payable annually on certain crops grown for winter keep. All the normal fodder crops, such as turnips, swedes, kale, oats, hay and silage would qualify, and the first to be covered by the scheme would be those grown to provide keep for the winter of 1964.
Subject to the Review discussions, we are thinking in terms of a grant of the

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order of £2 an acre in England and Wales and Northern Ireland. In Scotland it is proposed to pay differential rates of grant in accordance with the practice which has grown up in that country under the Marginal Agricultural Production Scheme, but the overall average rate of grant would be the same as the rate in the rest of the United Kingdom. Under the grassland renovation scheme we want to bring about improvements in our permanent grass comparable with those which the ploughing grants, in association with ley systems, have already helped to confer upon our temporary grassland.
Under this new scheme grants would be payable on the acreage of land on which an approved programme of operations is carried out. It will be an integral part of the new scheme that grants will be linked up with technical advice from the local advisory officer. He will advise the farmer on the most appropriate programme for his land, but he will not recommend the approval of a programme unless the land is suitable for renovation; for example, any essential drainage work must be done before a programme is approved. The programme may include operations such as heavy harrowing, applications of lime and fertilisers, eradication of weeds and rushes, or perhaps killing the existing sward by new techniques, and over-seeding. Not all of these measures would necessarily feature in any one programme.
It will be a condition of the scheme that the work must cost the farmer at least £6 an acre, excluding the cost of any items such as lime and fertilisers which are already subsidised. Subject to Review discussions we have in mind that the Government contribution should be a flat rate of, say, £4 an acre. The, precise details remain to be settled, but we hope to start this scheme during the coming autumn. There were favourable reactions in the House during our debate on the last Price Review when these new grants were first announced. Now that I have been able to give these further details, I hope that the proposals will be endorsed by your Lordships' House.
My Lords, there are three clauses dealing with animal health and welfare. Clause 13 is largely a consolidating measure enabling us to deal more effectively with carcases, fodder, litter, or
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hatching eggs, which might otherwise act as carriers of notifiable diseases. Since the Bill was published we have brought fertilisers within these control measures. The clause also gives a permanent statutory authority for the compensation hitherto paid under the annual Appropriation Act.
Clause 14 was introduced in another place following some disquieting reports about the treatment of young unwanted male calves on their way to slaughterhouses. As my noble friend Lord Balfour of Burleigh will know from his inquiry a few years ago into the problem of cattle exported to the Continent, we already have powers under the Disease of Animals Act, 1950, to protect farm animals during transit, and a new Order will shortly be introduced to deal specifically with the transport of calves. But we also want to ensure some minimum standards of comfort and treatment for calves while they are exposed for sale, and Clause 14 would give us the necessary powers to make such Orders.
Clause 15 arises from the Government's new policy on fowl pest. At the end of this month we shall be dropping the present system of slaughter and compensation in England and Wales and relying on the use of dead vaccine to control the disease. We shall adhere to the slaughter policy in Scotland so long as it remains virtually free from fowl pest. To give best effect to the new method of control the vaccination must be taken into wide and regular use, and so we are distributing supplies for two years at low prices which might result in a total bill for subsidisation of up to £2 million. Your Lordships will recall that we discussed various aspects of the vaccination method on July 26 last following a Question put down by my noble friend Lord Ferrers. The House might now like to have details of the present situation, though I should prefer to be making a report more comforting in its substance.
Vaccine at the subsidised price of ½d a dose has been available throughout England and Wales since mid-December. Now, two months later, and with less than a month to pass before the end of the slaughter policy, barely 10 per cent. of the poultry-keepers in England and Wales have applied for vaccine, and doubt whether more than a quarter of the national flock is at present so protected.

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This response is frankly disappointing. In general, the vaccine is proving effective against fowl pest, but until a high proportion of the country's poultry is vaccinated it may be that some vaccinated flocks will be unable to withstand the weight of infection to which they are exposed. This is why it is vital that everyone in the industry who has not yet vaccinated his birds should do so at once to give them immunity by the end of this month.
I will, by leave, take Clauses 16 and 21 together because they both have their origin in the changing value of money. Clause 21 is essentially a Scottish affair; it concerns bound sheep stocks which an outgoing tenant has to turn over to his landlord or to the incoming tenant. The statutory valuation of these stocks provides for certain adjustments within cash limits that are now out of date. Clause 21 substitutes a system of percentages as originally recommended in the Report of my noble friend Lord Balfour of Burleigh, and has exclusive reference to Scotland. The fee-charging powers of my Department are subject to this same problem of changes in money value, and Clause 16 is primarily concerned with removing obsolete cash limits. But, in the process of bringing our charges into line with the times, we are also giving up many long-standing charges for work which nowadays can be fairly viewed as a proper charge on the State. At present my right honourable friend is often compelled to charge for work of this kind—appointing arbitrators, regulating commons and so on—and this explains the appearance of many of the earlier Statutes in the Schedule of repeals.
Among the fees which will remain, and on which we shall be seeking something nearer full recoupment of our costs, are those for veterinary inspection of imported animals and for sire licensing. This is a convenient opportunity for me to mention Clause 17, which has been added since the Bill was first published and which will enable us to introduce new standards for sire licensing. Technical developments are paving the way for licensing to be based on other criteria besides the present "visual appraisal" for conformation, disease symptoms and the like. For example, the
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lactation performances of his ancestors can be brought to bear on the assessment of a dairy bull, and recent work on growth recording makes us hopeful of obtaining equivalent information on the qualities of beef bulls and boars. In the meantime, Clause 17 would give us broad enabling powers under which qualifying standards could be brought in, in due course, by order. Our inquiries have shown that the industry would welcome some changes along these lines.
A further measure which has been added, in another place, is Clause 24 which deals with seed potatoes. This follows closely upon one of the improvements recommended by the Committee on Transactions in Seeds. Here, again, we are seeking enabling powers, and in this instance they would be followed up by regulations prescribing the type of containers in which seed potatoes should be sold and the particulars which must appear on the label or sack. This will help to identify seed potatoes when they arrive at their destination and to investigate any complaints about quality. I am sure that your Lordships will favour a provision of this kind, which not only safeguards the purchaser but also protects the reputation of the efficient producer.
Towards the end of the Bill there are four clauses dealing with agricultural land. Nearly nine years ago, my noble friend, Lord Crathorne, announced the policy of disposing of State-owned farm land. It was a natural consequence of this policy that, in time, the acreage would decline to a point where its management would no longer require the apparatus of the Agricultural Land Commission and its Welsh Sub-Commission. The Arton Wilson Committee foresaw this in their Report on the Ministry's organisation in 1956; and the Estimates Committee reported in much the same sense in their findings for Session 1960–61. Barely 100,000 acres now remain in the management of the Commission and much of this is in process of sale—including the 35,000-acre Glanilyn Estate which is being bought by a consortium of its tenants. We shall in due course be dissolving the Commissions under Clause 18 and transferring the residue of land into the direct management of the Department—the Welsh lands being managed through the Ministry's Welsh Department at Aberystwyth. I am sure

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that your Lordships will wish to add to the tributes which my right honourable friend has paid to the work of the Chairmen and the members of both bodies.
Clauses 19 and 20 take us into the complex field of landlord and tenant relationships. Here legislation is largely a matter of preserving a proper balance between the two interests. One feature of the existing law which has not worked very satisfactorily is the provision in the Agricultural Holdings Act, 1948, for a landlord to recover possession on the ground of his tenant's failure to carry out repairs. A formula is embodied in Clause 19 which will, I am sure, commend itself to your Lordships. Clause 20 deals with another point under the same Act. It gives parties to an arbitration a little more time to prepare their statements of case for the arbitrator. This is a small, but I think useful, addition which has been made since the Bill was first published.
Clause 22 deals with an anomaly under the law relating to compulsory purchase. As the law stands the occupiers of residential or business premises can be paid, in addition to any statutory compensation, a form of disturbance allowance if they are displaced from a house or building; and in the case of business occupiers this allowance extends to the disturbance of their business. Farmers cannot at present be paid an allowance because agricultural land is not within the scope of the existing law. Clause 22 will rectify this and put farmers on the same footing as business occupiers. I think your Lordships will agree that this as right and proper.
Finally, a word about the two clauses on foodstuffs. Clause 23 which enjoys the support of all local authority, trade, and other organisations concerned, will enable producers and distributors to take advantage of new technical developments in the cooling and storing of eggs. It will help them to market fresh eggs in the best condition without risking an infringement of the law; and it will give the consumer better protection against the sale, as fresh eggs, of those that have been kept in cold store.
Clause 25 empowers the Sugar Board to carry out certain transactions to implement part of a proposed sugar agreement with the Irish Republic. As I mentioned to your Lordships yesterday when answering a question from my noble
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friend Lord Merrivale, details of the Agreement have already been published, and there are three main features. First, the Irish Republic have agreed to buy Commonwealth sugar to meet their import requirements for domestic consumption and for their export trade to the United Kingdom; this will be a useful new outlet for Commonwealth producers. Second, future exports of refined sugar from the Irish Republic to Northern Ireland will be restricted at a somewhat lower level than at present. And, third, the Sugar Board will purchase annually, at £50 a ton, 10,000 tons of refined sugar from the Irish Sugar Company; this sugar will be resold to the company at the world market price, for use in their manufactured goods exported to this country. The loss incurred by the Sugar Board as a result of these transactions was estimated at £150,000 in the first year of the Agreement but it will now be less, and possibly none at all, as I also told your Lordships yesterday. At the same time as the proposed Agreement was under discussion with the Irish Republic, we were able to arrange for the Irish Sugar Company to handle the produce from a field trial of sugar beet grown in Northern Ireland.
My Lords, it has taken me a little while longer than I thought to range over this assortment of measures, differing as they do in both substance and complexity, but I hope I have made the outlines of the Bill reasonably clear. It serves to illustrate the infinite variety of work and problems which come the way of an Agricultural Department, and it underlines the Government's continued endeavours for the well-being of the industry. I trust that your Lordships will see this as a really worthwhile Bill, deserving of your support, and that you will give it a Second Reading in welcoming terms. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord St. Oswald.)
3.29 p.m.
LORD CHAMPION: My Lords, I think we ought to begin this debate on agriculture by paying tribute to the farmers and farm workers, who have had to struggle so manfully with the frightful conditions of this winter. The Minister mentioned this aspect, in passing, when he was dealing with the hill farm clause of the Bill, but I think it is right that I,

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from this side, should also pay tribute, as I am sure the whole House will, to the work of the farmers and farm workers; and express some sympathy with them in the difficult task that lies ahead in the preparation of seed beds on iron-hard ground.
I could have wished that the noble Lord, Lord St. Oswald, had taken just a few minutes longer in introducing this Bill. I understand that there is to be a statement at about half-past three and, if your Lordships' Whips will give me the nod, as it were, when it is possible to make that statement. I will sit down.
My Lords, this Bill is aptly named a Miscellaneous Provisions Bill—and miscellaneous it certainly is. The difficulty that I find about making a Second Reading speech on such a Bill lies in the fact that there is no single underlying theme running through the Bill. There is no principle binding all the clauses together. The only word common to the whole of these clauses is the word "Agriculture" in the title, so the mind has to dart about from one of the varied aspects of agriculture to another. I must say that even the word "Agriculture" seems a little out of place when we look at the clause dealing with the Republic of Ireland Sugar Agreement. This is a clause which appears to deal with a Commonwealth rather than an agricultural matter—and perhaps even the word "Commonwealth" can scarcely apply, because Eire is not a member of the Commonwealth, although most of the advantages of Commonwealth membership apply to her.
Nor, it seems to me, is this a time to use the Second Reading of an Agriculture Bill to ascertain what are the Government's intentions for agriculture in the future, now that we have to face the future outside the Common Market; although I think that the probe into the position of agriculture will not long be delayed, for I predict that in to-morrow's debate agriculture's position will not be overlooked, and I am sure that the Government's statement on this will be the subject of the closest possible scrutiny by your Lordships and by the farming community outside.
There is nothing in this Bill to give much of a hint about the future, except in so far as it very wisely continues the specific improvement grants initiated by my noble
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friend Lord Williams of Barnburgh in the Act of 1947 and carried on in subsequent Acts. They were an essential part of his policy of trying to make up for the long years of neglect of agriculture from the period of the Corn Laws up to 1945; and I think that if it had not been for that part of his policy, together with a deliberate capital injection into the industry, the prospect which the agricultural industry seemed to have not so long ago of entering into the Common Market would indeed have been a very frightening one. Those improvement grants were extended by the Act of 1957, in the period of office of the noble Viscount, Lord Amory, and I am glad that the noble Lord, Lord St. Oswald, paid a just tribute to him for his work in this connection. If it had not been for these improvement grants, I am positive that the industry would not have been in the position it is in now when it can claim that its improvement in efficiency falls little short, if at all, of the best in the industrial field.
I notice that the Chief Whip has just come in. I do not know whether that signifies that now is the time for the statement. I gather, that this might be an appropriate moment for me to break off, and I shall resume my speech after the statement.

B.B.C. INTERVIEW WITH M. BIDAULT
3.35 p.m.
THE MINISTER OF STATE, HOME OFFICE (EARL JELLICOE): My Lords, I understand that my right honourable friend has just made a statement in another place in the following terms, and with the permission of the House, I should like to repeat it here. I have no ground for thinking that M. Bidault is now in this country. Police inquiries into the possibility of his presence here have been in progress for some time and are still proceeding, but so far without result. My right honourable friend the Home Secretary's permission for him to enter the country was neither sought nor granted. Since there is no record in recent months of his having been admitted in the regular manner, it is evident that he arrived illegally.
EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, the position

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seems to grow stranger and stranger. I think it is rather important from the point of view of the British public as a whole, that this matter should be cleared up. I am not intending to criticise the B.B.C. for the interview which was published last night—they seem to have got a scoop of a kind. It was said that the interview with M. Bidault took place some time ago, and though I do not think we were given the exact whereabouts, it was generally assumed that the interview took place in this country. We have already had the statement from Scotland Yard, that they did not know; and yet, within hours of this, it is arranged that, even though, perhaps, the interview took place some time ago, there should be a showing of this film. I suppose there was a consultation between the B.B.C. and somebody in the Government as to whether it was now appropriate to show the film, but we have not had any remark about that. I am not complaining about the actual contents of the statement which the noble Earl has just made, but I think the position needs to be cleared up in the minds of the British public, and certainly in the minds of the French public, unless we are perhaps to incur the sort of estrangement that we all want to avoid.
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Earl the Leader of the Opposition for the moderation of his supplementary question. I think I can confirm straightaway that the interview broadcast by the B.B.C. was, in fact, recorded several weeks ago.
EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: Where?
EARL JELLICOE: I understand that it was recorded in this country. Of course, as noble Lords will know, there has never been any question of the Government's allowing or disallowing an individual programme of this kind; and in the past noble Lords have been jealous—and in my view, rightly jealous—of the complete independence of the B.B.C. But I would wish to confirm that at no stage did the Government express approval of the programme.
LORD HENDERSON: My Lords, may I ask the noble Earl whether the B.B.C. paid a fee for the interview, and whether the money was paid to, and actually received by, M. Bidault?
LORD REA: My Lords, may I ask the noble Earl a further supplementary? Were Her Majesty's Government approached in any way by the B.B.C. as to whether it would or would not be an appropriate time to produce the interview?
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, perhaps I may take the two supplementaries seriatim. I am afraid that I have not in my possession the information that would enable me to answer the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Henderson. With his permission, I will seek to obtain it, and will either communicate that information to him or, if he would prefer to put down a Question on that point, will answer that Question or arrange for it to be answered. In answer to the noble Lord, Lord Rea, it is my understanding that Her Majesty's Government were aware that the B.B.C. had had an interview with M. Bidault, but (if I may repeat what I said before) there was no question of the Government's being asked to approve or disapprove the broadcast in question.
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, can the noble Earl say whether he has any evidence of how M. Bidault got into this country and of how he got out?
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, I think there is no evidence as to either entry or exit.
EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, since no visas are at present required on passports for travel between the two countries may I assume that, although the noble Earl said it appeared that M. Bidault entered this country illegally, he might have entered quite legally if he was not especially recognised by somebody examining the passport without a visa, because that would be within reasonable practice. Is that the position?
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, I think the noble Earl's assumptions are perfectly correct. It is my understanding that the most probable explanation is that he came with false documents rather than that he completely evaded our normal immigration control.
LORD MOLSON: My Lords, in view of what the Minister of State has said,

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with which we are quite familiar, that the B.B.C. is entirely independent and not under Government control, I should have expected to find that the Government knew nothing about this interview until it appeared on the programme yesterday. Are we to understand from the Minister of State that the B.B.C. did inform Her Majesty's Government that this programme was going to appear—informed them, but did not ask for any comment—and that no comment was made by Her Majesty's Government? That seems to be a peculiar state of affairs.
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, it is my understanding that the B.B.C. did not inform Her Majesty's Government whether this programme which they had in their possession might or might not appear.
LORD MOLSON: But did they inform Her Majesty's Government that they had this programme and that it would appear at some time? Is that a correct understanding?
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, I think the first part of the noble Lord's question is correct. The second part, that it might appear at some time, is not correct. It is my understanding that the B.B.C., in any communication they may have had with Her Majesty's Government, did not indicate whether this programme was likely to appear, or when.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, I am fully in agreement about the importance of the independence and impartiality of the B.B.C. That is common ground all over the House. On the other hand, here is a case where I think the majority of people feel that there has been a great error of taste, and also something that is liable to do great damage to our relations with the French, as well as being an interference with the internal affairs of France. The question I want to ask is: is there any possibility of the Government's consulting with the B.B.C. over the possibility of appointing a panel of two or three distinguished and independent people to whom doubtful cases of this kind could be referred for their advice? That would not interfere with the independence of the B.B.C. and would not involve interference by the Government. But something should be done to prevent the likelihood of such an eventuality as this recurring.
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, I am sure that all noble Lords will echo the sentiments of my noble friend with regard to this problem and with regard to Anglo-French relationships. I should like an opportunity of passing on the suggestion he has made, which I am sure deserves careful consideration.
EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, may I say at once that we should be exceedingly doubtful about panels being set up from time to time on this or other issues to decide on consultations of this kind, because that would completely ruin the general independence of the British Broadcasting Corporation. I understand the anxiety of the noble Marquess—I am not criticising. His mind has been roving around to find some sort of solution. But as to setting up a panel and regulations for the consideration of these matters, this would destroy the basis of the Charter of the B.B.C. and I do not want that to happen. May I ask the noble Earl another and perhaps more difficult question? Have Her Majesty's Government, in view of the furore created, not only here but in France, yet considered the question as to whether there might be an application for political asylum, and, in the event of such an application being made, what their attitude would be?
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, I am sure that what the noble Earl has said in regard to my noble friend's suggestion shows that this is a matter on which we should certainly not be precipitate. I hope that what I said originally demonstrates that Her Majesty's Government are just as jealous as any noble Lord in this House in regard to the complete independence of the B.B.C. I think, with respect, that the noble Earl's second supplementary question is, in fact, another matter which raises different issues.
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, will the noble Earl reject out of hand the suggestion of the noble Marquess?
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, I would only say that I did not intend this panel to have any executive power: it was merely to be advisory. But I felt that it might be of assistance to the B.B.C. and the Government to have such a body.
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, in reply to the noble Lord, I would merely remark that I would not reject out of hand any suggestion made by the noble Marquess.
BARONESS HORSBRUGH: My Lords, will the noble Earl say if, when Her Majesty's Government knew this film had been taken, they advised or suggested to the B.B.C. that it should not be shown?
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, I think the answer is, No.
LORD MORRISON OF LAMBETH: My Lords, I am sorry that I was late for this statement. I was listening to similar Business in another place. But, on this question of the B.B.C., is the noble Earl aware that if the Government wish to prevent the B.B.C. from showing something, or announcing something, then the Government can do it; but they must put it in writing and the B.B.C. have the right to publish it? May I lend my own support to what my noble friend the Leader of the Opposition has said? I think that the independence of the B.B.C. is worth preserving. After all, the Government have urged the B.B.C. to be competitive and to be enterprising; and if ever there was a piece of enterprise in the history of broadcasting, then this was it.
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, I am, of course, aware of the provision to which the noble Lord has drawn attention, but it is difficult to reconcile the operation of that provision with the independence of the B.B.C.
LORD TAYLOR: My Lords, does the noble Earl know whether the B.B.C. invited M. Bidault to visit this country in order to make the picture, or did they discover him when he was here?
EARL JELLICOE: No, my Lords, I do not.

AGRICULTURE (MISCELLANEOUS PROVISIONS) BILL
3.48 p.m.
Debate resumed.
LORD CHAMPION: My Lords, it looks as though that interruption is over and I can now resume my speech. I would only say to noble Lords who may look at the clock and think I have been speaking a long time that, as on the football field, time should be taken off
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for interruptions, injuries and other things. I was talking about the improvement in efficiency in the farming industry. This improvement in efficiency has been going on now ever since 1947 and enabled the President of the National Farmers' Union, in his annual address to his Union, to make a sweeping and very proud claim:
"Last February the calculation of the net income of the industry was forecast as £359 million for the year 1960–61; on the basis of normal weather conditions it was estimated that the figure would have been £373 million. When this is related to output we see that net output compared with the immediate post-war years had increased by about 40 per cent. and real income had increased by only 5 per cent. The corresponding figures for the nation as a whole were rather less than a 40 per cent. increase in production and about a 45 per cent. increase in real income."
That was a statement made on behalf of the industry, which I think was well justified. But, having said all that, I think that we have to admit that there is still very much to be done. That is why I particularly welcome Clauses 1 and 3 of this Bill, and I express the hope that there is nothing in the statement that I read in the Evening News last night and in the Guardian of this morning that improvement grants are likely to be savagely cut by the Government in the Price Review in the future. If the Minister, when he comes to reply, can give us that assurance, at least it will have dispelled some of the doubts created in people's minds as a result of these statements, which may be—who knows?—leaks to the Press.
Under Clause 1 of the Bill, the Minister told us, provision is made for increasing the amount to be spent on schemes under the 1946–56 Hill Farming and Livestock Rearing Acts from £27 million to £30 million, but the closing date for admission of these schemes is to remain at November of this year, so only some few months remain during which those hill farmers who have not yet taken advantage of these schemes will have to make their claims. I am not at all happy about this closing date. The Minister told the Committee in another place that
"Over the country as a whole two-thirds of the total number of farmers who could take advantage of these schemes have done so at some point over a period of years."
But the one-third who have not done so make up a considerable number of

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farmers and farms and no one would assert, I think, that most of those farms where application has not yet been submitted are incapable of improvement. The majority of these hill farmers have a very limited income and while some of them would not take the trouble to do anything about these schemes, we have to realise that the major limiting factor is the shortage of the necessary capital.
LORD ST. OSWALD: My Lords, I do not think that the noble Lord is in the least mistaken about this. His date of November is quite correct, but of course this is the date by which applications for schemes have to be in, not the date for their consideration, and I did point out in my speech that none of these farmers had less than twelve years to consider the possibility and some of them had had seventeen.
LORD CHAMPION: My Lords, perhaps I used the wrong word when I said "admission"; "application" is the word I should have used in this connection. I am certainly not in any doubt about it myself. Those farmers who have not yet applied have up to November during which to make applications. Thereafter, it would be for the Minister's officers to consider the schemes and, if they considered them worth while, to grant the necessary money for them.
I was saying that the one-third who have not yet applied are mostly farmers on a very limited income and that in most cases capital has been the factor that has held them back. They would have to borrow, and for a number of years past the Government's imposed policy has resulted in high interest rates, which placed the borrowing of the necessary capital outside the bounds of possibility for many of these small farmers. In support of my appeal to the Minister to extend the date, I see that interest rates have fallen recently and I believe that this might be a factor which would cause many of these farmers who make up the one-third and who have not yet applied to give further consideration to this matter.
There is just one question I should like to ask the Minister in this connection. I hope he will answer it when he comes to reply. If not, I daresay he will send
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me a note. What would be the position, after November, 1963, if some of these hill farmers were to apply for grants under the scheme under Clause 3? Would their claims be admissible, although at the 33⅓ per cent. rate, as against the 50 per cent. of the hill farming schemes?
LORD ST. OSWALD: It is a completely different scheme, of course.
LORD CHAMPION: It is a completely different scheme, but it all has something to do with improvement. It might well be that some farmers wish to apply, even if they "miss the bus" so far as the hill scheme is concerned. I must say to the noble Lord that I shall return to this matter on Committee stage.
Clause 2, as the noble Lord told us, is a straightforward extension of the period during which subsidy paid on hill sheep and cattle might be paid. It is a subsidy well worth while and designed to encourage livestock husbandry. The Minister has claimed, with some justification, that the scheme under Clause 3 has been a highly successful scheme. There is little that I wish to say about it, except to welcome the additional money which is to be put into it. Already one can see in the countryside evidence of the effect of this scheme, and if we grant an additional £35 million, as I imagine Parliament will do, the total amount spent in the end will be some £270 million on improvement schemes—that is, of course, when we take into account the fact that the farmer has had to make his contribution. This will go a long way towards improving the fixed equipment side of our farms.
I must admit, though I suppose not all my noble friends would necessarily agree, that I have a marked preference for this sort of subsidy over many of the present support subsidies, which, as we know, in many cases add to incomes of people whose incomes are already sufficient. But here the nation can see something of value for its money. One has only to run through the countryside to-day and compare it with what it was many years ago to realise that something has been done which is really worth while. However, in this matter of improvement grants we must be continually asking ourselves whether we have struck the right balance. Mr. Gavin McCrone, of the Department of Social and Economic Research of

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Glasgow University, in a letter to The Times yesterday, gives these figures:
"of about £330 million spent on subsidies each year, approximately £250 million is spent on price support, £70 million on subsidies to cost, and only about £27 million on improvements."
I would say that clearly some part of the price and cost subsidies is ploughed back into farm improvements, but I think there ought to be a continuous review of the balance between price support, cost subsidies and improvement schemes.
Clause 4 is a rather different matter. Horticulture has always been a part of our agricultural industry most difficult to assist except by tariffs and quotas. But it has always seemed to me that much of the fertiliser subsidy has resulted in the prices of fertilisers going up and swallowing the nation's contributions. No doubt the investigation by the Monopolies Commission into the affairs of the fertiliser industry had some effect, but clearly the Government Departments concerned should keep a close watch on this matter to see whether the granting of a subsidy results automatically in the price of fertilisers going up and the nation's contribution finding its way straight into the pockets of the manufacturers.
I would only say this in connection with Clause 5: I hope that it will close some more of the loopholes discovered by the lime frauds, which certainly shook the public faith in the general administration of this type of subsidy and brought the Ministry's administration into some disrepute. These lime subsidy frauds were something which undoubtedly shocked the nation; and it was surprising to find how many people with no interest at all in agriculture mentioned this fact to me because they knew I had had some little connection for a short time with the Ministry when I was in the other place. I would ask the Minister to look carefully at the administration of all these schemes to ensure that the possibility of fraud is eliminated, or is as nearly eliminated as is possible, because there is always some "smart Aleck" who is looking for a loophole in this, as in taxation and other matters.
Of Clause 6 I would say that here is a really worth while extension of the improvement grants for the co-operative
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use of plant and machinery. These syndicates ought to be encouraged in every possible way. The very act of farming makes for a highly individualistic approach; and perhaps that is the reason why collective farms, in Russia and elsewhere, have not been an unqualified success. It seems to me that our farmers have been for too long afraid of the co-operative ownership of machinery and the like, and have lagged behind many other countries, notably Denmark. There has always been the fear that "The other man will want the machine on the very day that I want it myself", and that has often resulted in expenditure on machinery quite unjustified by the income of the farm—and, I would add, on farming machinery of which farmers are notoriously careless. One has only to look over the hedges to see the tendency they have to leave the implements rusting from the time they are used one autumn until they are required the next, to see how great is this neglect, and, indeed, how serious it must be on their general expenditure on their farms.
In this connection I was particularly struck by the remarks of Mr. Emrys Jones of the National Agricultural Advisory Service when speaking of small farmers in the milk production industry. He said:
"Sucess in the future may well depend more and more on the sort of group activities that are developing in some areas, which have certainly given the term 'co-operation' a new meaning. An outstanding example of this … was the case of three neighbours in Radnorshire, each with between 70 and 80 acres, who in 1959 formed a machinery syndicate for silage making, sharing the machinery and the labour. Their working in common has paid them well. Between them in 1961 they had a 25 per cent. increase in gross output and a 45 per cent. increase in net income."
He makes a huge claim here, and I think perhaps a justifiable one. I certainly like this clause and the purpose behind it.
Nothing much need be said by me on Clauses 8 and 9, which, so far as I can see, are for administration changes and resulting in not much more than that, except that perhaps I should add that the more we can do in this field of co-operation and efficient marketing, the better. In any case, I think we can expect a searching intervention by my noble friend Lady Burton of Coventry, who I imagine will be devoting her lively mind to this aspect of the problem this after-

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noon. Clause 10, 11 and 12 are, as the noble Lord said, enabling clauses, and I think we shall be better able to judge of their value when we see the schemes which will be presented to the House, if I remember rightly, under the Affirmative Resolution procedure. The Minister in the other place gave some indication of what is in his mind, and so did the noble Lord, Lord St. Oswald, this afternoon. We welcome this idea, but we shall have to examine the schemes carefully. Clause 13 extends, as the noble Lord said, the possibilities of seizure of certain materials, including now fertilisers, added in the other place.
I regard Clause 14 as an important clause, for however much we may boast about our British love of animals there is still a lot of cruelty involved in their handling in markets and elsewhere. The Minister mentioned bobby calves, which has been a subject of much newspaper comment recently. But gradually we have extended the protection for animals, and this protection is being widened by this clause of the Bill. I had the privilege of sitting on the Committee mentioned by the noble Lord—that is, the Balfour of Burleigh Committee on the export of old cattle to the Continent—which led to a big improvement in the conditions surrounding the export of those animals. While investigating the conditions abroad, I met a Dutchman who seemed to me to be just about as humane a man as one could possibly meet. He knew our conditions in this country, and in discussion on the cruelty involved in that export trade he gave me what I might describe as a very old-fashioned look and said: "Are you sure that the conditions in your animal transport, markets and abattoirs are all that could be desired in this respect?" He was too polite to add, as well he might: "You ought to be sure that your own methods are above reproach before you come investigating ours." As I say, he was too polite to say that; but he knew the conditions here, and I think he secretly resented the fact that we had gone to look at the handling of cattle there when our own handling of cattle here was not above reproach. He thought we were adopting a rather "holier than thou" attitude in this matter.
The subsidy to be given for vaccine under Clause 15 is a good subsidy. The
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slaughter and compensation policy comes to an end this month, I gather. The only thing I would say in this connection is that I think it quite disgraceful that only one-quarter of our national flock has been vaccinated up to now.
LORD ST. OSWALD: Thank you.
LORD CHAMPION: I would support the Minister in everything he said in this respect. This really is disgraceful. I suppose I am old-fashioned enough to feel that "The Lord helps those who helps themselves". We are helping poultry farmers in this connection, and they ought to help themselves by getting on with this job of vaccination.
I now come to something concerning which I cannot imagine I shall get any friendly nods from the other side. We take strong exception to the clause dissolving the Agricultural Land Commission and the Welsh Agricultural Land Sub-Commission, both of which bodies, we say, have done a remarkably fine job of work under the overall supervision of an old colleague of mine, Sir Frederick Burrows. I think we shall all wish to join with the noble Lord, Lord St. Oswald, in his tribute to Sir Frederick Burrows on his stewardship in the office of Chairman of the Commission. Clearly, the dissolution of these bodies has been made inevitable by the disposal of nationally-owned land which has been followed by Conservative Governments since 1951. We are of the opinion that the Tory approach to this problem has been doctrinaire and not in the national interest. I will not develop my arguments further here, as we shall have to debate this clause fully on the Committee stage. I can well imagine that my noble friend Lord Williams of Barnburgh will have some typically trenchant comments to make, for he, I feel sure, is bound to see in this a continuation of the policy of attack on an essential part of the 1947 Act. It was started by the removal of the powers of the county executive committees. It has been continued throughout by the sale of land and, finally, by the dissolution of this Commission and the Welsh Sub-Commission.
I pass over Clauses 19 and 20 because of the fear of over-burdening an already over long speech, and I pass over Clause 21 for the simple reason that I know nothing whatsoever about it. It is true

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that that is not always a disqualification for a politician, but I will certainly not venture into the field covered by Clause 21. The extension of the powers projected in Clause 22 of an authority compulsorily acquiring land to pay allowances towards removal expenses and for disturbance we wholly welcome. I think the House generally will welcome this, judging by the tenor of our debate last Thursday on the compensation of the farmers to be turned out owing to the construction of the Clywedog Reservoir.
I jump now to my last point, namely on Clause 25. Perhaps, in order to prevent any misunderstanding of my position in relation to this clause, I ought to declare an interest in sugar production and its sale in this country. I am one of the three Government-appointed Directors on the Board of the Sugar Corporation, and before speaking to-day I made some inquiries as to whether I should be debarred from speaking on this sugar clause because of the Addison Rules. I was assured that I should not be offending, but I must make it clear that I am in no way putting forward any views that might be held by that Corporation. They are mine, and mine alone. In any case, any interest that the Corporation might have is indeed a very marginal one.
As I understand the position it is this, stated baldly. The Sugar Act, 1956, was designed to ensure that there would be a market in this country for the sale of sugar from our home beet production and for the sale of a negotiated quantity, bought at an agreed price, of Commonwealth produced sugar. In 1961, as a result of considerable surpluses of beet sugar on the Continent, and of the Cuban crisis and the purchase by Russia of Cuban sugar which had previously gone to the United States of America, there was a considerable dumping of foreign sugar on to our market.
In the beginning of 1962 the Government changed the pricing arrangements so as to give a price preference to Commonwealth sugar producers over the foreign dumpers of sugar. That pricing arrangement worked to the disadvantage of the Republic of Ireland, which up to that point was entitled to a Commonwealth preference, which was ended by the 1962 arrangement. It is, too, as I understand it, the case that Eire gives
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as well as receives a Commonwealth preference on all trade with the United Kingdom. Naturally, the 1962 pricing arrangement was viewed as another injustice to Ireland—an injustice which I regard as well worth while removing, as the Government are doing by Clause 25. In addition to removing an injustice by the agreement the Government, as the noble Lord, Lord St. Oswald, said, have secured some worthwhile advantages, notably by the Eire agreement, to buy from Commonwealth sources any raw sugar they may need for their home trade. So far as I am concerned, I wholeheartedly support this agreement and the Government's action in entering into it.
Even allowing for the interruption, I have taken rather a long time, but I thought some of the points worth while exploring a little. We shall have to return to some of them on the Committee stage. I would say that, with one or two exceptions, this is a good Bill, and we will assist in its passage through this House.
4.16 p.m.
LORD MERRIVALE: My Lords, I should not wish to follow the noble Lord who has just spoken in his very detailed scrutiny of the various clauses of the Bill, for I imagine that my noble friend Lord Amherst of Hackney, with his great knowledge of the agricultural industry, will be doing that. I would limit my remarks to the provisions regarding the Sugar Board. In view of the fact that the noble Lord who has just spoken is a Director of the British Sugar Corporation, I was rather pleased to hear him say that he thought the provisions were out of place in this Bill.
As I said, I trust your Lordships will forgive me if I consider only Clause 25 of the Bill and its implications. I feel fortified in doing so by the knowledge that Parliament, since the passing of the Ponsonby Rule in 1924, has the opportunity of considering an agreement before ratification. As has been said, Clause 25 empowers the Minister to ratify the draft agreement which was deposited yesterday in the Printed Paper Office. This draft agreement significantly extends the powers of the Sugar Board as set up by the Sugar Act, 1956, to which the noble Lord, Lord Champion, referred. Without wishing to weary your Lordships with something the noble Lord said, for

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the record I should like to quote from the foreword of the Sugar Board Accounts of 1961–62, which were printed on January 22, 1963. Paragraph 1 reads as follows:
"The Sugar Board were constituted on 15 October, 1956, under Sections 1 and 2 of the Sugar Act, 1956, with the primary functions of:—

(a) carrying out the Government's contractual obligations to buy sugar at a negotiated price from producers under the Commonwealth Sugar Agreement of 1951; and

(b) enabling the British Sugar Corporation, Limited, to implement the Government's guarantee to home sugar beet growers under the Agriculture Acts, 1947 and 1957."

Therefore, by inserting this short and seemingly innocuous clause in a purely agricultural Bill, a new principle is envisaged by Her Majesty's Government. That is the power which would be granted to the Sugar Board, to enable them to trade in sugar with the Republic of Ireland on the direction of the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food.
As has been explained by my noble friend, the purpose of one of the Government's proposals is to rectify, so far as the Republic of Ireland is concerned, a situation brought about by an increase in the surcharge levied by the Sugar Board just over a year ago to discourage imports of foreign refined sugar. However, since then approximately £150,000 have been accruing to the Sugar Board from this surcharge on exports from the Irish Republic. I must say that, as an effort to balance the account, I find it a curious one in view of the current London daily price for raw sugar. At this point I think it is interesting to note the remarks that were made by Mr. Peter Runge, chairman of the West Indies Sugar Company Limited, in the company's annual report which came out last month, to the effect that an explanation for the high price sugar now fetched on the free market at £50 10s. per ton—more than double the price of a year ago when it fetched only £21 per ton, the lowest price since the war—was rising consumption brought about by an increased standard of living in certain parts of the world; and the noble Lord referred to Russia as one of the countries which was now buying more sugar.
In spite of the recent events in Cuba and a damaged Continental sugar-beet
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harvest, it would seem reasonable to believe that the present market conditions will prevail for some time. Therefore, for the sake of argument, I would say that, should the years of surplus return, this agreement would, I feel, then have increasingly uneconomic aspects for this country. On the other hand, should the present position persist, then the agreement would not, I feel, achieve its object, which is for the Irish company to buy back its own refined sugar at over £10 per ton more than its selling price. Surely, in the long run, this would be uneconomic for the Irish Republic. The curious thing therefore, as I see it, is that these arrangements should be acceptable to the Minister of Agriculture in the Irish Republic. Also, it is interesting to note the comments which appeared in the Irish Times on February 19 to the effect that Ireland considered this a most satisfactory deal.
Regarding the suggested new outlet for Commonwealth sugar in the Irish Republic, which is put in the draft agreement at a minimum figure of 5,000 tons per annum, I think it is interesting to note that at the moment, before the draft agreement has been ratified, imports into Southern Ireland from Commonwealth countries are running at a figure of 15,000 tons per year. So it seems a little difficult to see what gain can be expected from that provision. Moreover, it is expected that imports into Southern Ireland from Commonwealth sources should, within the next few years, reach a figure of 25,000 to 27,000 tons. As the Commonwealth price to the Irish company is exactly the same as the price at which foreign suppliers supply their sugar to the Irish Republic—in other words, Southern Ireland will not buy her sugar any more cheaply from foreign countries than she is at present getting it from Commonwealth producers—it seems reasonable to believe that she will continue her present arrangements.
LORD ST. OSWALD: My Lords, may I point out to my noble friend that, whatever his figures may mean, the fact is that in the past Ireland has not bought from the Commonwealth. She has bought from foreign suppliers; and now she has undertaken to buy from the Commonwealth, which we consider a good thing.
LORD MERRIVALE: The Minister in another place said that at the moment Southern Ireland is buying from the Commonwealth 15,000 tons of sugar; that is, before any implementation of the agreement which will be allowed for by Clause 25.
My noble friend went on to say that the agreement would limit to 10,500 tons per annum the amount of refined sugar that would be imported into Northern Ireland. That is an exceedingly small reduction, considering that the trade at the moment is running in the region of 13,000 tons. I would say that the 10,500 tons which will be exported to Northern Ireland will be exported in competition with supplies from refiners in this country. I would stress that no limit whatsoever is placed on imports into this country from Southern Ireland of sugar in composite goods.
To end, I feel that when considering legislation we should not forget that the Irish Sugar Company is a refiner, and therefore operating in direct competition with our own refiners in this country, whereas Commonwealth exporters are not. Secondly, by passing this clause we are, as I have said, considerably increasing the scope of the powers of the Sugar Board, which I should have thought, if one proposed to do that, ought to be considered within the general context of the 1956 Sugar Act, and not within the ambit of a purely Agriculture Bill. Because, if this clause passes as it stands at the moment, the Sugar Board will be empowered to trade in the finished products of another country, which seems to be quite an increase in its powers. Finally, I must say that one of the main objects of this draft agreement, the avowed intention of refunding, in effect, £150,000—whether it is desirable or not—will not, I think, in all probability be achieved.
4.30 p.m.
LORD MILVERTON: My Lords, like that of the noble Lord, Lord Merrivale, my intervention in this debate will be concerned solely with Clause 25, and my object is to show that there is a very bad principle embodied in this clause and that British sugar refiners have just reason for resenting the provisions of the Anglo-Irish Sugar Agreement. They are justified, I think, in their opposition to Her Majesty's
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Government's intention to implement this sugar agreement with the Government of the Irish Republic and any such future agreements under this clause. I agree with other speakers who have gone before me in saying that this is curious company in which to find this clause; it seems to me very much out of place in this particular Bill. However, let that pass.
Before going on, I should, I feel, observe a custom of this House and declare an interest, because I am a member of the board of the West Indies Sugar Company, whose chairman was quoted just now by Lord Merrivale. I suppose that, like others of your Lordships, I have been inundated with literature from those who dislike this clause, and I have tried to get the facts, which are rather complicated, clear in my mind. With your Lordships' permission, I would state one or two of the facts, because without regard to those facts one can scarcely express a judgment on what this particular clause is trying to do.
First of all, the British Sugar Board was, as your Lordships doubtless know, set up by the Government under the Sugar Act, 1956, and British sugar refiners agreed to co-operate with it in the interests of Commonwealth sugar-growing countries. The Board buys raw sugar from growers in Commonwealth countries and sells it to the British refiners, who also buy part of their raw material on the free world market. The Sugar Board guarantees the Commonwealth grower a negotiated price for a large part of his production, and where this price is greater than that prevailing on the free world market the difference is covered by a levy which the Sugar Board is empowered to raise from the British consumer.
As one sees from that, the Sugar Board was intended to implement the Commonwealth Sugar Agreement, which was solely concerned with Commonwealth raw sugar. The effect of Clause 25 of the new Bill would be to extend these powers into an entirely new sphere as a State body trading in the refined sugar of a country over which the British Minister of Food has no authority and which is not technically in the Commonwealth. Not only is this a departure from the purpose for which the Sugar Board was set up and contrary to assurances which were given to the British sugar

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industry in 1955 before the passing of the Sugar Act; it also introduces a principle which could be extended to trading in other commodities and which might have very far-reaching consequences.
The provision that Irish exports of refined sugar and sugar goods to the United Kingdom should be made from Commonwealth raw sugar is presented as an extra outlet for Commonwealth sugar. But British refiners, may I point out, if given similar favoured treatment to that which is being given to the Irish Sugar Company, and if allowed to use supplies of Commonwealth raw sugar for re-export, could have provided a much larger outlet for the Commonwealth growers' crop, and incidentally no subsidy would be asked for in order to get them to do so.
There are certain other facts which it is necessary to appreciate. The Irish Sugar Company has been said to have an established trade in Northern Ireland. That is quite untrue. The Irish Sugar Company sold no sugar in Northern Ireland before 1957. In 1958 the Irish Republic were not members of the International Sugar Agreement, and as a non-participant they were limited to sales in the United Kingdom of 2,900 tons. The Republic became an importing member of the International Sugar Agreement in 1959 and since then sugar entering Northern Ireland from Eire has been, in 1959, 8,200 tons, in 1960, 10,400 tons and in 1961, 11,700 tons. That record, based as it was on this particular privilege which they enjoyed, cannot be quoted as an "established trade". It was a trade which depended, and depends, upon getting this subsidy from the arrangement with Britain. It is quite true, it may be pointed out, that imports from the Irish Sugar Company into Northern Ireland have continued in 1962, and that is because of commitments by the Trish Sugar Company to buy French and Polish sugar. No one can say for certain whether without a subsidy this trade could go on in 1963, but I can say that it is the British refiners' firm conviction that the Irish company would find it extremely difficult to carry on without this subsidy, which comes ultimately from the British taxpayer.
I am trying to establish what exactly this subsidy is based upon. Ever since
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Empire preference, British refiners have undertaken to hand to Commonwealth producers the full proceeds of the duty preference on Commonwealth sugar. This undertaking was renewed in 1955 to the then Minister of Food. Now we come to the hole in the tariff which the Irish company discovered they could make use of. When the Irish Sugar Company started to export sugar from the Irish Republic to Northern Ireland and Great Britain it obtained its supplies by importing sugar from such countries as Poland. When this sugar, Dr other sugar in substitution, was exported into the United Kingdom it attracted the rate of duty applicable to Commonwealth sugar, and as there was no counterpart to the British refiners' preference undertaking to give that preference amount back to the Commonwealth producers, the Irish Sugar Company had an advantage over British refiners. The advantage amounted to £2 10s. 0d. a ton. This anomaly was fully exploited by the Irish Sugar Company and the manæuvre became known in British circles as "the hole in the tariff", and I believe it was known as "the three-card trick" in Ireland.
Now I come to the next step. During 1961, as has been mentioned by other speakers, owing to the break in relations between Cuba and the United States, large quantities of Cuban sugar were bought by Russia and other Iron Curtain countries. The sugar was not wanted for consumption in those countries; they had to develop an export trade in refined sugar to get rid of it. Much of it was attracted to the United Kingdom, which at that time did not have any licensing system for sugar imports. The flow into the country reached dimensions which threatened the implementation of the Commonwealth Sugar Agreement. So, on January 1, 1962, in order to check the flow, British refiners were released from their preference undertaking. The drop in income to producers was made good by the Sugar Board, which recouped itself by increasing the surcharge it levied on sugar. Prices were left unchanged, however, because refiners, having been relieved of their preference undertaking, were able to absorb the increase in surcharge. This arrangement was known as "the régime". It considerably enhanced the competitive power of British refiners; it also plugged the

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hole through which the Irish Sugar Company had been gaining that advantage which I have mentioned.
But, my Lords, in the circumstances which prevailed before, the British taxpayer was providing for the Eireann refiner of sugar an export subsidy amounting to 2s. 6d. on every cwt. which was exported in 1959 to 1961 to Northern Ireland and to other parts of Great Britain, all of which went to enable him to undercut British refiners. The money was provided by the British taxpayer. This fantastic situation arose from the fact that Eire grows beet sugar, but because she has all the benefits of Commonwealth duty preference she found it profitable to import world sugars for her own use and to export part of her own beet sugar production to Great Britain and Northern Ireland. By so doing she got the advantage of the United Kingdom's lower preferential import duty scale which she would not obtain were she to consume her beet production herself instead of exporting it to the United Kingdom. As I have said, this gave her an unfair competitive advantage over British refiners, so long as the latter continued to honour their agreement to pay the full amount of Commonwealth preference on all sugar which other Commonwealth producers may have wished to export here.
So, when, on January 1, 1962, that advantage ceased, owing to the arrangement which I have mentioned, it was not that the Irish had a grievance: it was merely that they had lost what was an unfair advantage, which put them on level terms with the British refiner; and they had been using this advantage in order to displace from the Northern Irish market the British refiner whose market it previously had been. That is precisely what this subsidy is now going to restore. It is not redressing a grievance, but restoring an injustice to the British refiner.
The things I have mentioned are, I think, indisputable facts: they are not opinions. If, therefore, any grievance existed before, it was a British grievance and not an Irish grievance. Refiners chafed under the controls, before this arrangement, over Commonwealth sugar, for a matter of sixteen years. I believe; and when the Sugar Act brought controls to an end, they were given assur-
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ances that the Sugar Board would be used only to implement the Commonwealth Sugar Agreement, and, of course, the promises which had been made to the British beet industry. The legislation before the House now nullifies these assurances and makes the Sugar Board the instrument of a new Government policy. I do not know what the next step is going to be; but I suggest that this is a most inappropriate authorisation of a new step to be concealed in this clause of an omnibus Bill of this kind.
The difference in point of view over this is explained by the different relationship which exists between British refiners and members of the Commonwealth Sugar Agreement, on the one hand, and with the Irish Sugar Company, on the other. Members of the Commonwealth Sugar Agreement are primarily exporters of sugar, and are not in competition with British refiners, because any assistance they may be given is applied equally to all their products and not preferentially to refined sugar. Thus, they normally send raw sugar to British refiners because it is more profitable to them to do so. With regard to Ireland, however, any sugar exported by the Irish Sugar Company has to be refined from imported raw sugar, and they are, therefore, in direct competition with British refiners.
LORD ST. OSWALD: My Lords, my noble friend is not, I hope, overlooking the fact that under this agreement the Irish Republic is going to extend its own sugar beet area.
LORD MILVERTON: My Lords, I have not overlooked that fact, but I regard it as merely indicating how profitable this arrangement is going to be to the Irish. Any assistance given to the Irish Sugar Company is automatically applied by them to refined sugar, because they have no raw sugar to export. They do not grow enough sugar for their own needs. Any such assistance must, therefore, be unfair to British refiners—unless, of course, they receive similar assistance. In short, British refiners regard this agreement as one in which the Irish Sugar Company have offered to buy Commonwealth raw sugar, and then obtained a subsidy to enable them to sell it in competition with British refiners whose costs are lower.

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To come to the last point which I wish to make, in order to justify the agreement it is represented that the Irish Sugar Company have an established trade in sugar in Northern Ireland, and that prior to January 1, 1962, certain advantages were enjoyed by the Irish Sugar Company for this trade which I mentioned just now which were unwittingly removed as a result of the administrative action by the Ministry of Food, and that these advantages should in equity be restored. It is represented that the damage done to British refiners by the payment of a subsidy can be justified if the Irish Sugar Company agrees to limit sales of sugar in Northern Ireland and to use Commonwealth sugar bought from the Sugar Board as its raw supply for this trade and for exports of sugar-containing goods to the United Kingdom. It is further represented that the payment of a subsidy is justified by the new outlet secured for Commonwealth sugar.
My Lords, if one examines this question one must reject these claims. The Irish Sugar Company has no established trade in Northern Ireland; it sold no sugar there before 1957, and when it joined the International Sugar Agreement it found itself in the position of being able to exploit an advantage of Commonwealth preference. Imports from the Irish Sugar Company into Northern Ireland have continued in 1962 because of the commitments in regard to its purchases of foreign sugar. But it is undoubtedly the firm conviction of British refiners that they would find it extremely difficult to carry on this trade without a subsidy unless they were able to finance their losses by increasing home prices. The limitation of sales into Northern Ireland only mitigates the damage to British refiners. It cannot justify the subsidy, because it is only the subsidy that will allow the Irish Sugar Company to compete with British refiners.
LORD KILBRACKEN: My Lords, will the noble Lord forgive my interrupting? He keeps on speaking about a subsidy which is payable to the Irish Government by the English Government. How does he know this subsidy is going to be payable? The Irish Sugar Company have to pay a price £10 above the average for the year, and if the average for the year is £40 no money is going to change
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hands. If it rises above £40 the Irish consumer will be subsidising the British.
LORD MILVERTON: Well, my Lords, if it is argued that the limitation justifies the subsidy because the Irish Sugar Company is competitive without the subsidy, then it must be accepted that the 1960 and 1961 trade would have been achieved without the necessity of exploiting the "hole in the tariff". If that was so, the Irish Sugar Company suffered no damage by the removal of that advantage, and the whole argument for compensating the company for the loss of advantage derived from the "hole in the tariff" would fall to the ground.
The size of the new outlet for Commonwealth sugar has been greatly exaggerated. It could be created more cheaply in other ways. The new outlet claimed derives in part from the Irish Sugar Company's sugar exports to Northern Ireland, and in part from exports of sugar-containing goods to Great Britain. To the extent that it derives from the former it can be held to create a new outlet for Commonwealth sugar only if the sales into Northern Ireland can be done equally well without an agreement. This is denied, to take the other side of the question, so that the provision does no more than transfer the purchases of Commonwealth sugar from British refiners, who formerly had the trade, to Irish refiners, who have been slowly getting it. As I have said before, my Lords, if British refiners were allowed the same advantages they would be able to guarantee a much bigger field for the enlargement of Commonwealth sugar purchases.
My Lords, going back to the assurances, there was much detailed correspondence in 1954 and 1955 about the powers to be given to the Sugar Board under the Sugar Act. The sympathy with which Ministers viewed the feelings of sugar refiners in this respect was clearly indicated by the introduction of an Amendment to the Bill by the Minister himself to bring the Bill in line with the assurances given. The feelings of British refiners are unchanged, and they regard any extension of the powers of the Sugar Board as contrary to their interests and in breach of these assurances. The new Bill reawakens all the fears that were expressed during the

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prolonged discussions about the Sugar Act when it was in draft, that the Sugar Board could be used as a convenient instrument by Government to further plans not attainable through normal commercial processes.
My Lords there is a good deal more which might be said, perhaps in Committee; there is no end to the points which can arise on this complicated question. In conclusion, may I say that I hope I have made clear the grave objections in principle to this clause of the Bill before the House. I sincerely hope that the House will give it further consideration in Committee when the time comes.
4.58 p.m.
BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY: My Lords, I feel somewhat fortified by the two noble Lords who have preceded me in that they each confined themselves to one particular clause. I, too, should like to do that. What I have to say arises mostly upon Clauses 8 and 9—primarily Clause 9. For that reason, I hope noble Lords will not think me discourteous if I do not follow them into the detailed points they have made on their particular clauses.
Early in 1960 the Horticultural Marketing Council was set up, with a grant from the Government, to look into the system of marketing, and to advise, to experiment and to undertake research. As your Lordships know, it had none of the powers of a marketing board, but it seemed at that time to have a great many bright ideas which might usefully be introduced for the benefit of everybody alike. Four months after the setting up of the Council the Financial Times published an article on this subject, the first paragraph of which I should like to quote:
"The Horticultural Marketing Council, set up four months ago, is now in action. It has no time to lose. The Government is financing it for three years only, after which it will have to convince the industry, from growers to shopkeepers, that it is worth their money to keep it going. It has never been easy to collect subscriptions in horticulture; and three years is not long for the Council to sell itself."
At that time, the Chairman of the Horticultural Marketing Council gave as one of his aims the achievement of better production, cheaper distribution and greater consumption. He hoped that this
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would mean that the housewife would get the produce as cheaply, as fresh, and as well presented as possible. I personally thought that Mr. Bowerman coined a very good phrase when he said that the Council wanted to work "from plough to plate". The Minister may remember this. Obviously, the Government approved of these sentiments. because they footed the bill.
Last week, I was looking through some recently published reports of the Horticultural Marketing Council. As the House will know, these recent reports were three in number. They were Market Research Reports Nos. 8, 9 and 10, being technical and economic reports dealing with fruit, flowers and vegetables. I have two here; one concerns the housewife's attitude to vegetables, and the other concerns consumer habits and attitudes relating to fruit. I am not to-day going to be tempted into commenting on these findings; I think it would be out of place, and I do not wish to weary the House. But the point I do wish to make is that all these Reports carried the same foreword, and I should wish to bring two brief paragraphs of that foreword to the attention of the House. I would quote:
"The Horticultural Marketing Council was set up to promote the better marketing of and the development of the trade in fruit, vegetables and flowers. In pursuing these aims it is necessary to know just what the consumer thinks and feels about these products, the ways in which they are presented to her, and the places where she can buy them. With this knowledge, sensible and profitable plans can be drawn up for better marketing, better merchandising, and effective publicity. Without it, efforts in these directions may easily lead to disappointment and loss."
The Council went on to say:
"It is a matter of the deepest regret to the Council that it will not be able to continue and develop the service to the industry of which these enquiries represent the first important instalment. Soon after the reports have been published, the Council will be dissolved. It is most earnestly to be hoped that the industry will see to it that the work is continued so that the industry keeps abreast of the times, and prospers as it can and should."
My Lords, I want to ask the Minister to-night, for the benefit of those of us who do not know the "ins and outs" of this particular matter: what has happened here? Is it correct, could the Minister tell us, that on this particular matter the farmers by a small majority

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voted in favour of continuing the Horticultural Marketing Council; the wholesalers voted 4 to 1 against; and the retailers voted 8 to 1 against? Arising out of the dissolving of the Council, I should like to ask the Minister why he felt that the Government could not continue with the financial support which they had given in the first place. Was it because they had agreed to do so for three years only; was it because the Government felt they had not had value for money from the Council; or, thirdly, was it because they considered that the industry itself should now provide finance for this work?
LORD ST. OSWALD: My Lords, I can, in fact, briefly answer the noble Lady now. I will try to answer in greater detail when I come to reply. I am afraid I have not the figures with me at the moment, and I will try to obtain them. But the fact is that the Council was wound up to the great disappointment of the Government, because sustained interest was not available from the industry itself. I cannot recall how the voting went on the occasion that the noble Lady names, but what I can tell her is that it was a great disappointment to us that it could not continue, because interest was not sufficient within the industry.
BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, because I thought he might say that, and I should like to go on from there. Separately from this question, I should like to ask the Minister if he can tell us when he comes to reply—and I think it is obvious from what he has just said—whether the Government feel that the work of the Horticultural Marketing Council should continue. If so, how is this to be done? The Minister said, in opening to-day—and I took down his exact words on Clause 9—"We must fashion new ideas". I would merely suggest here, for consideration—I accept entirely what he has said—that there is in this matter a responsibility on both the producers and those on the retailing and wholesaling side. But I would suggest to your Lordships that there is responsibility on the Government, too; and I expect, obviously, that the noble Lord will have had time to skim through, anyway, the debate in another place on Friday last.
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I was interested to see that Mr. John Wells who moved the Motion there, and who is, of course, a member of the Government's side of the House, deplored the short and sad life of the Horticultural Marketing Council. Mr. Wells further went on to say that if horticultural co-operation were to make real progress there must be a further injection of Government money. In fact, I can give the noble Lord the reference, which is OFFICIAL REPORT, Commons, Vol. 672 (No. 68), col. 1602. If we move on from there, I must say that I was very fortified in my opinions by what was said on the Government's side of the House, because I hoped that might weaken the Minister's resistance to-night. Mr. Bullard, also speaking from the Government's side of the House in that debate on Friday, said that he, too, lamented the end of the Horticultural Marketing Council. He went on to say that he thought there was a job of research and development to be done in this particular matter.
One other point that I took up from there, and perhaps the noble Lord will tell me if I am correct when he comes to reply, was that with regard to this wholly unfortunate matter the National Farmers' Union had put forward six points, and one of them was a suggestion that there should be an Advisory Marketing Council on this particular matter. My Lords, in Clause 9 of the Bill that we are discussing to-day, we are told:
"The appropriate Minister may … with the approval of the Treasury make provision for the payment of grants towards the cost of carrying out proposals for promoting the efficient marketing of agricultural or horticultural produce, for carrying out research connected therewith".
My Lords, I have been pursuing this matter for some thirteen years. I have not got very far yet, but I come from Yorkshire and I am very persistent and I intend to go on. I hesitate to quote from Hansard of twelve years ago. I always think it seems rather "much" to quote from what somebody has said a long time ago, but unfortunately nobody has given me any information or said anything to me which enabled me to change by mind. But as long ago as May 11, 1951—if the House would bear with me—I said that I thought there were three things necessary on this particular matter of distribution, which I

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am dealing with now. I said [OFFICIAL REPORT, Commons, Vol. 487, col. 2364]:
"We require, firstly, a better marketing intelligence, a pruning of the expenses of marketing and a simpler system of distribution."
I should have thought everybody would have gone along with me on that particular point. The second point was that
"we have, somehow, to bring the grower nearer to the retailer so that these highly perishable goods can be handled more speedily and waste avoided."
I should have thought there was no disagreement there.
The third point—and I feel very strongly about this—was
"… I am convinced that the biggest item in the prices all of us pay for our home grown fruit and vegetables is not the cost of growing them but the cost of distribution",
and I have never had any information to the contrary. My Lords, we look at the price paid by the shopper for any of these commodities, and we compare it with the price which is received by the producer. All I want to ask this House is what I have been asking for some weeks past: whether the size of that gap is really necessary. That is the point I want to establish.
To go back just once more to Friday's debate in another place, Mr. John Wells said, at column 1596, for the benefit of the Minister—and I quote:
"But, unfortunately, at the retailing end there is too much waste of money which is pushing up the price to the housewife".
My Lords, when prices rise in the markets they rise in the shops, but when prices go down in the markets they do not always go down in the shops. That is not a matter of opinion but a statement of fact. I do not know whether the Minister has ever had made to him by a wholesaler a remark similar to the one that a wholesaler made to me. He said: "The housewife who wants to buy 2 lb. of cabbage will not buy more than that if we put down the price, so it is not worth putting it down".
Some time ago I visited Covent Garden—it was some years ago—to have a look at the system of distribution and to find out how prices compared. I do not propose to weary your Lordships with the systems of distribution then obtaining, but, at the risk of tedious repetition, and indeed basing myself on the noble Viscount the Leader of the House, who
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told us on Wednesday last that it is the obvious which stands particularly in need of emphasis, I am going to say that what we want, first, is a simplification of the present arrangements so that produce goes through fewer hands; secondly, a pruning of the expenses of marketing; and, thirdly, a better marketing intelligence—all this simply to bring the grower nearer the point of retail sale. Nobody is going to tell me, or expect the British public to believe, that the system of distribution could not do with this.
Some years ago Warwickshire producers told me of the long and duplicated journeys their produce had to take to reach the customer. Moving up to July, 1960, I was told by a producer from Sevenoaks that his horticultural produce goes from Sevenoaks to Covent Garden and back to Sevenoaks to be sold. Coming right up to date, I am fortified again by a letter in the Daily Herald on September 3, 1962, which had at the top, "The costly travels of a cabbage". The letter, which was short, said this:
"Critics of vegetable prices should know that we shopkeepers do not control the price the customer has to pay for cabbages. Shops in any given area charge very similar prices. In the cut-throat world of modern shopkeeping we cannot put up our prices. The tremendous difference between what the grower gets and what the customer pays is due to the marketing system under which produce from Devon is taken to London to be sold and then driven all the way back to Devon again."
That was from a Mr. Keenan, of Crediton, in Devon.
Now what has the Minister to say about all this?—and I hope it is going to be a little better than the answers I have had in the past, because I agree with Mr. Keenan. I think he is right: I think that this system of distribution is largely responsible for the size of the gap between producers' prices and shoppers' prices. As the House knows, I have been pursuing this problem for some time here, hoping to secure collaboration from the Government. On February 7, I put down a very harmless Question to the Government, asking them if they were prepared to provide information showing the difference between prices obtained by farmers and prices charged in shops for various commodities when such information would seem to be useful. In his reply, the Minister, of course, stressed the difficulties. I am sure he remembers that.

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He told the House that information in the desired form was limited to milk, eggs, potatoes, and some fresh fruit and vegetables. Then, in his further reply on February 21 [OFFICIAL REPORT, Vol. 246 (No. 44) col. 1439] the Minister obviously forgot he had included "some fresh fruit and vegetables" in that very meagre list; and furthermore, on February 28 he implied to the House [OFFICIAL REPORT, Vol. 247 (No. 47) col. 190] that there is no single commodity in the fresh fruit and vegetable field for which price details such as I had requested could be given.
My Lords, that really is complete and absolute nonsense. I just do not believe it. I am not implying falsehood to the noble Lord—I am sure he is aware of that—but it just is not true. What really is at fault is that there is no will on the part of the Government to undertake this investigation. Now I do not know why we 'have this tenderness on the part of the Government, and a reluctance to provide us with this information. The noble Lord will remember that on February 21 my noble friend Lord Stonham, at column 1440, tried to come to his rescue, and told him that if he would look at the Fruit Traders' Journal which gives the market wholesale prices payable for the main fruit and vegetables, he would be able to give me the information that I wanted. The noble Lord did not agree with that, but he seemed to relent slightly the following week, when he said that he could get some of that information but that it really would not be valid.
My Lords, I have talked to a good many people about this matter—people not of my political opinions—who think that what my noble friend Lord Stonham said was accurate, and that the figures could be obtained from that source. I am quite sure that tonight I shall be told once more of the comlexity of this problem, of the great variation in produce, and of the difficulty in making valid comparisons. I would accept all that, but I should like to ask your Lordships: since when has the difficulty and the complexity of a question meant that it should not be tackled? It seems to me a very poor reason for leaving it just as it is.
So I am asking the noble Lord, under Clause 9 of this Bill, whether the
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Government would not feel able to look at research into these two aspects: first, the aspect of distribution to aid efficient marketing of agricultural or horticultural produce; and secondly, the gap existing between what the producer receives and what the housewife pays—not, my Lords, I would point out, with the object of blaming anyone, but of finding out how big this gap is. I would leave with the noble Lord a remark made by the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, on December 5 last [OFFICIAL REPORT, Vol. 245 (No. 18). col. 260]—and I quote:
"… where there is a political will the Treasury draftsmen will find a way."
5.18 p.m.
THE DUKE OF ATHOLL: My Lords, I hope that the noble Lady opposite will forgive me if I, too, do not follow her into the realms of Clause 9. It is not something of which I have any great knowledge, and, like the noble Lord, Lord Champion, I feel that this is a good reason for not talking about it. On Clause 8, I should like to ask: why does this apply only to England and Wales? Is there already an equivalent provision for Scotland, or does my noble friend think there is a tartan curtain stretching from the Solway Firth to the Tweed, as I am sure even the noble and gallant Viscount would agree, tribes do not respect purely arbitrary lines on the ground? What happens if a co-operative or a syndicate of farmers (whatever you like to call them) wishes to set up on either side of the Tweed?
This Bill is a glorious hotchpotch of miscellaneous agricultural provisions, and it is therefore difficult to make any comments which have a relevance to more than one or two clauses. I should, however, like to make a few comments on some of the clauses, starting off with Clause 1, which is the one increasing the amount of money available for the hill farming scheme under the 1946 Act to £30 million, which I of course welcome only too heartily. I feel I must declare an interest in this scheme and, at the same time, I would say how co-operative we have always found the people who administer the scheme in Edinburgh. They have been immensely long-suffering with the number of variations, additions and alterations that have been made to the original outlined scheme and they have been sympathetic to the reasons which underlie them.

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However, like the noble Lord, Lord Champion, I would ask why the date of November 5 of this year is being adhered to for the end of the scheme. In Scotland, until 1958 a tenant farmer could leave his farm to anyone at all in his will even if he had no lease and it was purely on tacit reallocation. This meant that many farms, far too small to be economic, continued to exist, and therefore, quite rightly, hill-farming schemes for these farms have been refused. These farms are now gradually coming back into hand and, on the whole, they are either amalgamated with other farms or will be re-let as bigger units when the chance comes. This means that the Department consider hill-farming schemes much more favourably. If the Government keep to the date of November 5 a lot of applications will be put in before that date in a form in which the people making these applications have no intention of pursuing under the scheme because they know the tenants of the farms concerned will be leaving within the next four or five years, and therefore, at the end of that time, the whole basis of the farm will be altered; it will be made much bigger and the farm will therefore be much more economic. This will waste a lot of time for both the Department of Agriculture and the people concerned in drawing up plans and submitting applications which it is not intended to carry out.
There is another reason why I hope this time limit will be extended. Some tenants have remarkably little incentive to farm well at the moment. They are reaching the end of their lives and they just like to stay in the house in which they have always lived. In four or five years' time they will give it up or else they will die and the farms will come in hand. Then, of course, one would like to make a completely new scheme with the tenant then concerned; he may want to farm differently from the present man. I feel it would be a great help in the case of tenanted farms, of which there are still a great number in Scotland, if this scheme could be extended for several years yet.
The next clause that I want to welcome is Clause 6. I think it is an excellent thing that farming syndicates should be able to get grants, and I cannot imagine why they could not have done so in the
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past. I am sure it was just a mistake that they were left out of the original legislation. But does this clause go far enough? Clause 6 (1) says:
"The … Minister may make grants towards …
"(b) the housing of agricultural machinery belonging to the syndicates".
I should have thought that in the near future many syndicates might find it useful to keep their livestock in one large building rather than in many small ones perhaps spread over several farms. I can easily imagine that in the future a dairy farm could be more efficiently run if, say, three dairy farms got together and the cows were milked in one building, and they would then be able to afford up-to-date milking machinery. Can my noble friend tell me whether that will be included under another scheme or whether Clause 6 could be widened so as to include things such as that?
The next clauses on which I should like to remark are Clauses 10 to 12. Of course, once again, I welcome them. They will do a lot of good, but we shall know much more about these when the draft schemes are published. I think it is a pity that this pale substitute for M.A.P. has been introduced and that M.A.P. is not being restored. It was a scheme well understood and of great value to all marginal farms. I should have thought the Government could admit that it was a mistake to withdraw this scheme and reintroduce it in its original form. Since there is a new spokesman on agriculture in this House since I last spoke about this, I would assure him that it was of great value and very well thought of, at least in Scotland.
I should now like to draw attention to Clause 16 (4). This removes the limits of registration fees for bulls and stallions. The previous limits, as I think all noble Lords will agree, were ridiculously low. But the Highland Pony Society are very worried by the complete removal of the limit because they feel that if there is no maximum written into this Bill, or if the fee charged should be too great, there will be a great incentive to many people in remote parts to keep unregistered stallions. This would not only be bad from the breed point of view but it could introduce hereditary diseases that we have gone to great lengths to wipe out in pony, horse and

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cattle stock. I hope that, if my noble friend will not agree to putting an upper limit to these fees in the Bill, he will be able to give us an idea of what these fees are likely to be and some form of assurance that they will not be raised unduly in the very near future.
I do not think there is anything else in the Bill that calls for comment from me. So far as Clause 21 is concerned, I cannot understand this at all. I am the only Scottish speaker here to-day and this clause is an absolute mystery to me. I had great hopes that my noble friend would explain it, but I cannot say I was any wiser about it at the end of his speech. I would just say that I am very surprised to find Clause 25 in this Bill. It fills me with horror. When I tried to put down an Amendment to the Scottish Licensing Bill to reduce the power of the Secretary of State to refuse licences in State management areas, I was told by the Government spokesman that the Bill was not a "suitable vehicle". Well, if that was like putting passengers into a lorry, then, in my opinion, this clause is like putting a stretcher-case into a dust cart. It seems to me to be singularly inappropriate.
I am sorely tempted at the Third Reading of the Water Resources Bill to move an Amendment to compel the Central Electricity Generating Board to buy electricity from the South of Scotland Electricity Board at, say, 2d. a unit and to sell it back to them at about ½d above cost price. It seems to me that it would be equally relevant and of equal value, at any rate to Scotland. I should like to point out that, as a result of this agreement, the two places to suffer from the employment point of view are Greenock and Liverpool—both areas of high unemployment. I should be grateful if my noble friend could answer the points which I have raised. Apart from Clause 25, I do welcome this Bill and hope it rapidly becomes law.
5.30 p.m.
LORD AMHERST OF HACKNEY: My Lords, like all previous speakers, I welcome this Bill. As the noble Lord, Lord Champion, has said, it is a very disjointed Bill. As I find myself in almost complete agreement with everything that the noble Lord, Lord Champion, has said, and he gave a fairly
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detailed summary of his opinions on the Bill, I will not weary your Lordships with a long speech and will refer merely to one of two clauses.
The only point on which I would not agree with the noble Lord is on Clause 18. Like him, I would give unstinted praise to the work of the Commissions, but I think that it is a good thing that the Government have sold off sufficient land to make those Commissions unnecessary. I would support the noble Duke in hoping that the Government will think seriously about whether the Livestock Rearing Act and the Hill Farming Acts should not be continued, although I realise that at the moment there is only a small trickle of cases coming forward under these Acts.
Under Clause 3, which provides for the increase in the grant under the farm improvement scheme, on which I should like to congratulate the Government, I feel that, as a result of the stopping of the hill farming schemes, there may be a considerable additional pressure on the £35 million which has been added to that scheme. People who would have put forward schemes under the Hill Farming Acts will be forced to put them forward under the Agriculture Act, 1957, and that may lead to a great deal of extra pressure on the £35 million. It would also have disadvantages for those people who put forward schemes for the more remote parts of the country, which on the whole are more costly. At the moment, comprehensive schemes get 50 per cent. grant whereas, under the farm improvement scheme, their grant would be only 33½ per cent.
I think that this farm improvement scheme has done a tremendous amount of good and I endorse everything that the noble Lord, Lord Champion, has said about it. I think it works very satisfactorily in practice and presents comparatively few difficulties. The only thing that sometimes, in marginal cases, presents some difficulty is the "prudent landlord" definition. In the case of the smaller farm, there is probably not much difficulty in deciding that it is viable, but whether a notional prudent landlord would carry out a particular expensive improvement sometimes leads to certain differences in opinion. Another difficulty is whether certain new and improved methods, say of handling grain, or various types of bins and systems of

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storage, should or should not be brought under the Act as passing the test of the prudent landlord. But, on the whole, the provision has worked well and anybody who travels about the countryside can see the results of it.
I would refer briefly to Clauses 6 and 7. Again, I should like to congratulate the Government on these grants for machinery syndicates. I feel that these syndicates have a tremendous future and small farmers would be well advised to take all advantage possible of these schemes. Again, in regard to Clause 15, which deals with the vaccination of poultry, it is surprising that more has not already been done. A number of poultry-keepers have been very remiss in not already taking advantage of this subsidised vaccine and every possible pressure should be put on them to make them use it. Otherwise, they become a menace to their neighbours. I know that a great deal is being done to publicise this, but everything more that can be done should be done.
I welcome Clause 19, which amends the Agricultural Holdings Act, 1948, and closes a loophole which one or two unscrupulous people were using to give notice to quit to tenants on the ground that they had not carried out repairs. This is agreed between the National Farmers' Union and the Country Landowners' Association, and I think that it will be an advantage. I also welcome Clause 22, which allows compensation to be paid to farmers who are displaced, in the same way as to owners of businesses, but I think it is perhaps a pity that this compensation is permissive and not mandatory. The clause says that councils "may" pay compensation and does not say that they "shall". I agree that this is the same as in the original Land Compensation Act, but if it is possible to make it compulsory it should be done. If it is not possible to make it compulsory, then I feel that if, for any reason, a local authority does not pay full compensation for disturbance, et cetera, or pays at a reduced rate, they should state publicly then reasons for so doing. I have mentioned just one or two small points on the Bill. Generally, I join with all other noble Lords who have spoken in giving it a welcome.
5.40 p.m.
LORD HENLEY: My Lords, I intervene in this debate because I feel that
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little has been said on the general policies underlying the Bill, both on what the Bill does and on what it does not do. I welcome the Bill very much for what it does and also for a certain trend which I think I detect in it. I know that the Bill is rather for discussion in Committee than for general debate—indeed, that has 'been obvious from the way that all noble Lords have considered clauses, one by one, throughout the Bill, rather than its general principles. I think this indicates that it is not necessarily a Bill that is for new policies. Nevertheless, I feel that there is in the Bill a certain shift of emphasis. I rather agree with the noble Lord, Lord Champion, who said that he did not think there was any common principle running through the Bill. But I detect a shift of emphasis, which seems to be away from price support and cost subsidies towards measures designed to strengthen the industry and make it more efficient. I notice this trend not only in this Bill, but also in the pattern of where the weight of the present subsidies is falling. This seems to me to be a good thing.
I daresay that when this Bill was framed it was framed with an eye to the Common Market and our possible entry into it. I still hope most devoutly that we shall go into it, but I feel strongly that the problems confronting the agricultural industry are problems which will remain the same whether we are in the Common Market or not. These problems are the co-ordination of home-produced food and imported foodstuffs; what quantity we grow here and what quantity we import. That is really the crux of the whole matter. Does this Bill help in solving this problem? Are the grants large enough in themselves, or are they long enough in point of time? Are there other grants that we could effectively use towards securing that efficiency which must in the long run help the consumer just as much as it helps the producer? Is there any indication in the Bill that those subsidies which we feel are not effective will be diminished and, eventually, abandoned? It is true that deficiency payments remain as they are (there is nothing in the Bill about them), but deficiency payments must in the long run come to an end. It is a bad system, and, as the noble Baroness, Lady Burton of Coventry, said, they tend to go into the wrong pockets.

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I welcome the fact that the Bill shows a definite tendency towards a policy of production grants and away from the subsidy system, but I do not think it goes far enough. I wonder whether this Bill could not perhaps pave the way towards some new comprehensive measure that would take the place of the Agriculture Act, 1947, and subsequent Acts. The 1947 Act was a great Act, and with it the resuscitation of the whole agricultural industry has come about. But I think the time has now come when we must re-think the whole issue and try to co-ordinate the whole policy in regard to home and imported foodstuffs, and overhaul the marketing system, in one great comprehensive measure. This Bill does not do that, and it is not intended to do so. But I think it is important to draw attention to the fact that, although this Bill does not go very far towards this, it does go some way and shows a tendency. I welcome the individual details, and the difficulties will be ironed out in Committe. But, as I say, I should like to see this as a Bill paving the way for something more comprehensive. I feel it is possible, judging by this trend that I detect in the Bill, that the Government are thinking this way too, and I should like them to go a little further than they have gone in this Bill, good as it is.
5.45 p.m.
LORD WALSTON: My Lords, it has been interesting to me to see that a Bill which is an agricultural Bill, albeit a miscellaneous provisions Bill, has attracted nearly 50 per cent. of the speakers and nearly 50 per cent. of the time from people who would not claim to be speaking as agriculturists. I do not think that is a bad thing; speaking as a farmer, I think it is encouraging to find that consumers and processors, and possibly even distributors, should take an interest in the subject.
Perhaps I might deal first, quite briefly, with this vexed clause, Clause 25. I was particularly interested when the noble Lord, Lord Milverton, said that there was no end to the argument. I was beginning to wonder how long we should be sitting here listening to the arguments on all sides. But, at the end of it all, it seems to me that what the Government are doing is not subsidising the Eire Government, nor particularly the Eire farmer,
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but simply having a gamble on the world price of sugar. Perhaps in this age of bingo, premium bonds and so on there is no reason why the Government of the country should not have a gamble with the Government of Eire. All I can say is that, if they do, I hope we win.
The other non-agricultural speech was the fascinating and informative speech of my noble friend Lady Burton of Coventry. She spoke with great knowledge, and I hope she has (shall I say?) smoked the noble Lord out of his reluctant corner, and that he will, as a result, give us rather more information than my noble friend and others have been able to extract from him over the past few weeks. The only other thing I would add on that point is that, as my noble friend pointed out, a large proportion of the total amount the housewife pays for food—I would say at least 50 per cent., as I think is shown by official statistics—goes to people other than the producers.
We have in the past spent—and quite rightly so—through the Agricultural Research Council, large sums of money in order to promote efficiency on the farming side, and I am delighted to see that under Clause 9 there is to be the possibility of spending at least some money for research on the distributive side, which is every bit as much in need of research and has every bit as much scope for improvement as the actual producers themselves. In view of the great difficulty which the noble Lord has had in providing small parts of the basic information for which my noble friend Lady Burton of Coventry and others have asked in the past, I hope that one of the first activities on which the money authorised under Clause 9 will be spent will be in acquiring basic facts and statistics as to the amount of "spread" there is in different food commodities between the field and the kitchen; how that money is spent; where it goes, and what the movements of the different commodities are. Because, until that basic information is assembled and made public, it will be difficult for us to obtain any significant increase in efficiency.
I now turn briefly to the other more agricultural aspects of the Bill. I was interested that the noble Lord, Lord St. Oswald, in talking about Clause 2, made mention of the fact that one of its functions was to improve the quality of the

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cattle kept in the areas covered by the Hill Farming Act. Undoubtedly, that is an admirable thing to do. But, at the risk of bringing up one of my own particular hobby-horses, I would point out to the noble Lord that one of the best means of enabling farmers to improve their cattle, whether it be on the hill farms or elsewhere, is by giving them freedom, subject to the necessary quarantine restrictions and so on, to import even from foreign countries any breed of livestock which they think will help in this respect.
In order to do this we do not ask for any Government money; we do not ask for subsidies of any kind. We ask for a very small amount of freedom which is available to breeders of horses and dogs (subject to quarantine) and other less economically important forms of livestock. In this particular context, I would mention to the noble Lord my own limited experience with a herd of cattle similar to those kept on hill farms, the Long Pedigree Aberdeen Angus. The one experience I have had with the Charollais bull shows that the calf at birth is 50 per cent. heavier than the straightforward Angus calf, and its growth record for the first seven or eight weeks of its life shows that it can maintain that improvement. If the noble Lord and his colleagues are interested in improving the standard of cattle on hill farms, I suggest to him that at no expense to the taxpayer, at no risk to the health of the livestock of this country, but only possibly at the risk of displeasing some of the vested interests already existing, the breed societies, he should consider once more the question of extending to hill farmers and other farmers this freedom of importation.
Comments have been made on Clause 3. I think we all agree that that form of capital subsidy is an admirable one, although perhaps in some ways it did not work quite so well as some had hoped, in that its application has been confined rather to those farmers or landowners who have sufficient capital to put up their two-thirds contribution. There are a good many people with holdings which need re-equipment but where the initial capital is not available from the farmer or the landlord himself. That is a drawback to the scheme, though it is by no means a reason for disparaging the scheme itself. The noble
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Lord, Lord Amherst of Hackney, made mention of the prudent landlord. He is always an elusive fellow, and it is rather hard to decide exactly what he should do. My own view is that at the moment, until we have a change of Government, or at least of Government policy, any prudent landlord would be chary about investing any money whatsoever in agriculture. But that situation, we hope, will not last for very long.
We now come to Clause 4, the extension of the fertiliser subsidy. Here perhaps I may make a rather more general comment on this type of subsidy. In my view, it is an admirable one if it is designed to encourage the adoption of new methods or new techniques which otherwise, because of their expense, the prudent or cautious farmer would be unwilling to adopt. In order to get something which is believed to be a good method adopted more readily, I think it is an admirable idea to make that commodity or technique cheap by way of a subsidy. But that must not be used as a permanent and continuing subsidy.
In the days when farmers were diffident about using fertilisers because the costs were too high and the profits insufficient, it was a sound idea to give a subsidy for the use of fertilisers, not only so that they might get it somewhat more cheaply but because, being human, we farmers always think it rather nice to get something for nothing, or at lower than cost price, to encourage us to make use of them. But, surely, the time has passed when any farmer, other than the most backward and reactionary, hesitates to use the appropriate amount of fertiliser. I am doubtful whether the continuation of a fertiliser subsidy can be justified, especially, as my noble friend Lord Champion pointed out, since it is highly probable that a large amount of that subsidy finds its way into the pockets of people other than the actual farmers. We must remember that every time the fertiliser subsidy has been reduced the price to the farmer has come down by at least as much as the reduction in the subsidy payment.
We must remember that the industry is protected to some extent by tariff, and we must not forget that last year, when there was a question of importing nitrogenous fertiliser from Poland at about £12 per ton, application was made by that weekly-

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growing industry, I.C.I., for protection against this unfair competition—an application which was listened to and acted upon by the Government. But shortly after that I.C.I. themselves exported nitrogenous fertilisers to Eire for £12 a ton. I think that that fact should be remembered when we are discussing fertiliser subsidies.
The only point I have to raise with regard to Clause 6, other than giving my warm approval to it, and uttering wishes for its success, is to take some slight issue with my noble friend Lord Champion. He mentioned something rather derogatory about farmers leaving their machinery out in the rain instead of putting it under cover. I know that this sometimes happens but it is frequently far more economic to leave your plough or disc harrow out in the rain, and to put a coat of paint on it at the end or beginning of the season, rather than to erect, at considerable expense, even with the Government subsidy, a building in which to house that machine. On many occasions when town friends of mine have commented on this sort of thing I have pointed out to them the actual cost per annum of housing all the machinery on the farm, and they have agreed with me that possibly a coat of paint is a cheaper way of doing it.
On the same clause I should like to endorse the suggestions of the noble Duke, the Duke of Atholl, about including livestock in that type of co-operative housing. I am quite sure that the time will come before long when many livestock farmers will find it in their own interests to cooperate, perhaps not in the rearing of livestock, but certainly in the milking of dairy cows after they have reached maturity. There are examples which have been going for many years in the United States where farmers own their own cows, where they look after them when they are dry. When they have been served by artificial insemination, and when they have calved, they retain the calves and rear them, but the cows go to a central co-operative dairy where they are milked, the farmers being charged for the cost of milking and food, and credited with the amount of milk each cow produces, and then, having been served, she is returned to the farmer for her dry period and calving. That is the type of
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situation which I should like to see developed in this country, and I should like to see the facilities of this good clause extended so as to embrace livestock as well as machinery.
Now let us come on to Clause 10, the winter keep grant. When it was first announced, this seemed to me an admirable idea. It is clearly a good thing to encourage farmers to grow their own keep for use during the winter months. As I said in connection with the fertiliser subsidy, any grants of this kind must be given in order to promote the more rapid adoption of new techniques, rather than to promote the continuation of techniques which, because of their economic implications, are already beginning to pass out of normal use. I had hoped, therefore, that this type of grant for winter keep would be something on the lines (and here I am speaking only dialectic-ally, and not literally) of grants for more modern haymaking machinery, possibly for barn drying of hay, and for silage machinery to enable silage to be made more cheaply. At the moment there are many farmers who still make hay in the expensive old-fashioned method, or who do not make silage at all because it is too expensive.
It appears from what the noble Lord said that this grant will be used to encourage farmers to grow crops which they have given up growing only because they have found them too expensive. They have suggested a grant of £2 an acre for growing turnips. I think that would have been an admirable grant to have introduced in the 18th century when Lord Townshend introduced turnips into this country in order to get them widely spread and widely used. Eventually, though rather slowly, their use did spread until in some part of the country they became almost universally used for feeding stock in the winter. They have now gone out of use solely because it is too expensive to grow them and there are cheaper ways of feeding cattle in winter. Surely it is a very retrogressive step to use money in order to bring back into common use a custom and system which modern mechanisation and modern economic trends have shown to be outworn. I hope the Ministry and the noble Lord will have second and third thoughts on this subject, and will make sure that this potentially useful weapon is used

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to encourage good and modern methods of cultivation and not simply to revive old and outworn ones.
There are not very many more clauses on which I will detain your Lordships. I certainly endorse everything that has been said by the noble Lords, Lord St. Oswald, Lord Champion and others about the very great importance to farmers, and the poultry industry in particular, of the vaccination against fowl pest. But I think that, unless there is a very great improvement upon that figure of 10 per cent. of poultry owners which the noble Lord quoted, the whole industry will be in for extremely serious trouble. I think it is well to remember in that connection that it is not the deaths which cause economic losses; it is the setting back of the animals, the going off lay and the extra eight to ten weeks taken to bring fowls up to broiler weight that cause the trouble and economic losses.
I am very glad to see Clause 17, which lays increasing emphasis on the performance, records and progeny of bulls and boars, and I hope its effect will go far. I also welcome Clause 22, but I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Amherst of Hackney, in that I would much rather see it laid down that the acquiring authority shall or must pay, rather than may pay. I think it goes without saying, and I will not elaborate the point, that the abolition of the Land Commission under Clause 18 is something which we strongly deprecate and which we may in due course be able to persuade noble Lords on the other side to abandon.
In general, my Lords, this is a patchwork Bill, and I do not think it sets out to be anything else. In the context of the general lack of policy and general search for ad hoc remedies to put right obvious wrongs which have arisen because of this lack of policy and the moving away over the years from the principles of the 1947 Act, I do not think it is a bad Bill at all. I think it is almost as good as; one could have expected the noble Lord and his friends to produce, and with that modified welcome I am glad to support it. Before I finally sit down, may I say that I hope the noble Lord, Lord St. Oswald, will accept my apologies if I leave the Chamber immediately because I am now almost overdue at another meeting?
6.4 p.m.
LORD ST. OSWALD: My Lords, I should like first of all to thank the noble Lord, Lord Champion, for the thoughtful and reasonable way in which he opened the debate on this Bill from the other side of the House. I had the impression that he was putting me in my place before the debate went any further when he referred to his having himself had some slight connection with the Ministry. He was, of course, Parliamentary Secretary at the Ministry of Agriculture. I was very grateful to him for paying tribute and extending his sympathy to the farmers in this fearful winter. I have expressed sympathy to so many farmers in so many parts of England during the past weeks that it sometimes seems to me that they must all know my sympathy; but I am very glad that they should know of both the noble Lord's and my joint sympathy and admiration for the efforts they have made to overcome the hazards. The problems of frozen ground and famished pigeons is as bad as anything they have known in the history of agriculture in this country.
I am sorry the noble Lord, Lord Walston, has gone. I was delighted that a debate on a Miscellaneous Provisions Bill should have been made that much more miscellaneous by the introduction of a hobby-horse. I will try to deal privately with the other things he mentioned, rather than refer to them to-night and so lengthen my speech at the end of what has been a fairly long and full debate. I am, of course, very grateful for the general measure of approval which this Bill has enjoyed during the debate. Some questions and criticisms have been raised, but before answering them I should like to thank those of your Lordships who have put suggestions which we will certainly consider when we are framing schemes or regulations under the various enabling clauses of the Bill.
It may be convenient if I start where the Bill starts, and where the noble Lord, Lord Champion, started—with the hill farming grants under Clause 1, and the relationship between these grants and the farm improvement scheme in Clause 3. The noble Lord, Lord Champion, was apprehensive lest improvement grants under Clauses 1 and 3 might be slashed in the context of the Price Review: he said he had read rumours

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to that effect in the Press. The noble Lord and the House in general will appreciate that Her Majesty's Government are seeking the powers at present before the House in order to continue these schemes for capital grants for improving hill and general farms; and these improvements are not, in fact, taken into account in the Price Review determination. So I am happy to be able to reassure him on that point. The noble Lord was also disappointed that we had not taken this opportunity of extending the life of the improvement schemes under the Hill Farm and Livestock Rearing Acts, and he raised points about credit and grant under other schemes.
Your Lordships will recall that by November 5, 1963—which is the closing date for applications—hill sheep farmers will have had seventeen years in which to apply for schemes; and the livestock breeders further down the hill will have had twelve years. By then we expect that the bulk of the essential work will have been provided for in the schemes submitted. It is true that an extension of the scheme might find some farmers still coming forward with proposals, but the grants are quite generous and I think it should have been possible for the promoters of schemes to raise finance through the normal channels by now. We do not think it is necessary or desirable to go on extending the life of this legislation, partly because it was designed for a specific purpose which has so largely been fulfilled, and partly because other forms of assistance are now available for virtually all the work covered by this scheme. I have in mind not only the many grants and subsidies available from the Agricultural Departments but also the assistance which can be obtained from local authorities and the Forestry Commission.
The noble Lord, Lord Champion, also asked specifically whether hill farmers would be able to apply for rehabilitation schemes after November, 1963, under the farm improvement scheme. Although these are different schemes, there is much common ground between them. Most of the improvements to fixed equipment, except to dwelling-houses for which there are now local authority grants, could be considered under the farm improvement scheme if the farm met the
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statutory tests. Improvements to land could probably be grant-aided under other schemes, such as the winter keep and grassland renovation schemes, drainage and water supply grants, and so forth, though at different rates in some cases.
My noble friend the Duke of Atholl asked about an extension of time to enable schemes to be submitted for farms which until the present occupier leaves cannot be amalgamated with other farms to make viable holdings eligible for grants. I agree that this may well be a problem in some instances. However, Parliament clearly intended that these grants should have a term, and the present legislation has been in operation for a good many years, as has already been said. We cannot, I think, keep the door open indefinitely for the sake of what may admittedly be hard cases, but only a few hard cases. The noble Duke will appreciate that it is possible to consider schemes covering several farms which would each be ineligible separately; and there are still six months in which to apply. Even so, if he finds it impracticable to submit an acceptable scheme there will, of course, still be grants available for most items under the farm improvement scheme.
He asked whether we would be willing to apply a lower level of fees for licensing pony stallions. We should not be justified in making such a differentiation. Mountain and moorland ponies which are not "travelled"—that is to say, taken from place to place for stud—are exempt from licensing in their native districts. But the costs involved in licensing the remainder are the same as those for any other type of stallion. Their values and service fees, though they range lower, can be as great as, or greater than, those of other stallions; and since we have accepted the need to recoup our costs as far as possible, I think we must deal with ponies on a par with other stallions. We are reviewing the licensing procedures generally so as to keep fees as low as possible. I cannot say what fees will be charged; this is a matter on which we shall be consulting with the industry.
The noble Baroness, Lady Burton of Coventry, asked about the circumstances in which the Horticultural Marketing Council was dissolved, and why my right honourable friend was not in a position

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to finance it for a further period. As we all know, it was always intended that the Horticultural Marketing Council should eventually be financed by the industry. The Horticulture Act, 1960, under which the Council was set up, provided for this. The Government decided to finance the Council for the first three years to give it ample time to prepare a scheme for raising revenue from the industry. Unfortunately, the idea of an industry-financed Council received so little support from the industry that we had no alternative but to dissolve the Council. I promised the noble Baroness to do my best to obtain details of how the voting went. I understand that in fact only 4 per cent. of the N.F.U. fruit and vegetable growers bothered to vote at all. It is true that among those who did vote there was a majority in favour of retaining the Council. It is also true that both the wholesalers and the retailers voted against retention of the Council; but again the proportions of non-voters were 69 per cent. and 85 per cent. respectively. I therefore think it is fair to say that the Council was killed by apathy; we could not impose a Council and compulsory charges on an unwilling industry. I have a great deal more to say in reply to the noble Baroness, but perhaps she will allow me to come to it later.
The noble Duke, the Duke of Atholl, asked why Clause 8 does not run beyond England and Wales. I have to tell him that there is a tartan curtain, and that we are lifting the tartan curtain with this clause. The fact is that statutory provisions are already available in Scotland under Section 4 (5) of the Small Landowners (Scotland) Act, 1911. What I have to tell him is that Scotland is slightly ahead of us, but he is slightly behind his countrymen.
In reply to another point raised by the noble Duke, I should like to say a word or two about the Marginal Agricultural Production Scheme in Scotland. None of us would attempt to deny that this Scheme has done a great deal to help farmers on poor land. The Scheme has, however, run almost unchanged for a long time, and inevitably its limitations have become more apparent under the changing conditions of recent years. It was excessively concerned with arable cropping in an area which was, by and large, more suited to grass husbandry. It
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also suffers from the disability that assistance often has to be limited, and it contains an inbuilt sort of "means test", which means that the larger and more progressive farm is liable to be arbitrarily excluded. Rather than adapt the old scheme, the Government have preferred to come forward with a new one which is better suited to the particular needs of the areas which it seeks to assist. The Government are confident that this winter keep scheme will prove of great value to the hill and upland areas in Scotland.
THE DUKE OF ATHOLL: My Lords, it is only in the last three years there has been this inbuilt means test. But it did have the effect of keeping up employment in these rural areas. Does the noble Lord envisage that the new schemes will have the same effect?—because I think that is a very important matter in these rural areas.
LORD ST. OSWALD: What they are aimed at is more efficient husbandry. That is what any Agriculture Bill seeks to do at the outset, and we hope that other things will follow in its train. That is the end to which an Agriculture Bill is directed.
The noble Lord, Lord Champion, took exception to the decision to dissolve the Agricultural Land Commission and its Welsh Sub-Commission, and I was not greatly surprised that he should do so. When the noble Lord, Lord Williams of Barnburgh, called these two Commissions into being he had a job for them to do—that of managing a large acreage of farmland which the State was attracting into its hands. But as far back as 1954 my noble friend Lord Crathorne announced our policy of disposing of this land which the Commissions have been managing on the Minister's behalf, and I am not aware that this policy has been challenged as a whole, except by certain members of the noble Lord's Party. It follows—and I think that the noble Lord, Lord Champion recognised this—that once this policy has been adopted, it is inevitable (to use his own word) that these high-level, highly qualified men are not fully employed, but are engaged in managing a reduced acreage; and of course, as he knows, the acreage is now down to just on 100,000 and is on its way to being still further reduced to something between 30,000 and 40,000.

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The noble Lord said a kind word on the Irish sugar agreement, for which I was very grateful. The noble Lord, Lord Kilbracken, also agreed with the agreement we have made with Ireland. But it came in for a great deal of criticism from other noble Lords. A number of points have been raised. This is a most intensely complicated question. It was discussed in Committee in another place for more than two days, and I am not sure how effectively I can deal with it in a few minutes to-night. Perhaps I might start with Lord Merrivale's general criticism, that Clause 25 was the "odd man out" in the Bill, and that these Irish sugar arrangements were of sufficient importance to justify separate legislation.
I hesitate to follow the noble Lord and the noble Lord, Lord Milverton, in attempting to define the natural boundaries for a Miscellaneous Provisions Bill; but I would not necessarily accept the view that we must be guided by the relative importance of the subject matter. One calls to mind that the National Agricultural Advisory Service was brought into being under the Agriculture (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act, 1944; and that the Bill now before your Lordships is putting an extra £35 million into the Farm Improvement Scheme. This is very substantial legislation: these are not trifles. Moreover, as we have seen this afternoon, the inclusion of Irish sugar in this Bill has certainly not prevented us from discussing the agreement at great length, and we have doubtless to look at it in detail in Committee.
All I can say to the noble Lord to-night is that although many aspects of the agreement have been aired this afternoon, there is only one which calls for legislation and that is the extension of my right honourable friend's powers to give directions to the Sugar Board. With the present pressure on the legislative programme we must obviously minimise our claims on Parliamentary time, and I hope that your Lordships will agree that an omnibus Bill of this kind is a convenient vehicle for covering these additional powers. Of the four main features of this agreement I obviously need not defend the benefits which it confers on Commonwealth producers; the restrictions which it places on exports from the Irish Republic into Northern Ireland; and the prohibition of exports of refined sugar to
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Great Britain. I should have liked to hear more general commendation of those advantages to this country in the course of the speeches.
There remains only our share of the agreement—that is, to buy some of their sugar—and this has been called into question during our debate. The changes we made at the beginning of 1962 in our pricing arrangements increased the Sugar Board's receipts from surcharge on Irish sugar by at least £150,000, and this was not passed on to consumers at the time. It was, in effect, paid by the Irish exporters. We think it reasonable to offer this assistance to the Irish Republic in their trade in sugar and the sugar content of their manufactured goods, since it will provide some compensation, but not full compensation, for the reduction in returns from sales to this country which they sustained as a result of the 1962 changes. These changes were directed against imports of foreign sugar, not against the Irish trade. We compensated at the time members of the Commonwealth Sugar Agreement for the similar effects on their exports; but we did not at the time compensate the Irish Republic.
There seems to be some misunderstanding about the consequences of this agreement for the Irish Sugar Company and for British refiners. In fact, however, it is not the accounting difference between the fixed price and the world price that is of significance for the Irish Sugar Company. The important thing for them is that we have undertaken to buy their refined sugar at a price which covers their costs of production. They are therefore arranging to replace 10,000 tons of the foreign sugar they previously imported for this trade by sugar of their own production. Therefore, my interjection during the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Milverton, had some significance in that they will cease to buy foreign sugar and will grow their own beet for their own sugar production.
In the sugar agreement with the Irish Republic we will guarantee a purchase of 10,000 tons of sugar for use in sugar-containing goods for shipment to Britain (a long established trade) at a fixed price which will enable the Irish Sugar Company slightly to increase the production of beet sugar in Ireland and replace an

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equivalent amount of foreign sugar previously imported for this trade. They will not therefore, in practice, have any proceeds from the agreement to assist the export trade in refined sugar to Northern Ireland. This trade must, under the terms of the agreement, be covered by the purchase of Commonwealth raw sugar bought at the same price as British refiners pay for their supplies. Whatever may have been the past position, in future, because the trade will be based on sugar produced in the Commonwealth or in Ireland, there is no question of the Irish Company's having an advantage in the cost of the raw sugar used. In fact, of course, the agreement provides for a significant reduction in the export of refined sugar to Northern Ireland.
LORD MERRIVALE: My Lords, my noble friend referred to compensation to the Irish Sugar Company. Does he feel confident then in effect, as the agreement stands at the moment, that compensation will be achieved by the Irish Sugar Company?
LORD ST. OSWALD: Whose compensation? The compensation for the Irish?
LORD MERRIVALE: Yes.
LORD ST. OSWALD: No. The Irish will not be fully compensated for what they lost during the previous period.
LORD MERRIVALE: Was not that one of the reasons for the agreement?
LORD ST. OSWALD: The purpose has been partially to compensate the Irish Republic.
My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Burton of Coventry, asked me for some comfort in continuance of her series of Questions. All I can tell her is that the scheme for market research and development which is provided for under Clause 9, in which she was interested, stands on its own. Under it £1½ million is being made available over an experimental period of three years. I hope she will agree that this demonstrates the Government's desire to assist development in marketing; but the initiative must come from the industry. Clause 9 seeks statutory authority for grants which are already being made under the authority of the Appropriations Act. Anyone with an interest in marketing can apply for a grant to the Committee which the farmers themselves have set up for the purpose of vetting applications. I should have
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thought that the noble Lady would regard that as a suitable method of vetting applications. It is for the Committee to recommend which projects should be approved for grant, but research into distribution and allied matters which has the prospect of early practical value can be eligible.
I should like to think that I shall be able to give the noble Baroness more satisfaction than I have been able to give her up to now in her series of Questions, which I enjoy as much as she does, or I hope she enjoys as much as I do. I would point out that some weeks ago I offered her figures on three commodities if she put down a Question. She has not put down a Question on those three commodities, but has pointedly put down a Question on a fourth commodity on which I had not offered her figures. But that is perfectly fair. I am still waiting for the Question that I am able to answer.
As a general summing up of to-day's debate, I think I can fairly say that this Bill has been welcomed as a useful measure. Some noble Lords would have liked the Bill to go further than it does, and other noble Lords have urged us to drop at least one of the clauses. I hope that I have been able to do justice to their arguments—if not, we can look at them in more detail in Committee. I shall look forward to hearing any points that noble Lords may feel inclined to raise at that stage. With its many assorted provisions the Bill certainly lives up to its name. But in their different ways these proposals are designed to promote the well-being of our all-important agricultural industry, and I commend the Bill to your Lordships as a measure fully deserving of your support.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

COMMONWEALTH DEVELOPMENT FINANCE COMPANY BILL [H.L.]
Reported, without amendment.
BRADFORD CORPORATION (CONDITIONING HOUSE) BILL
SHELL CHEMICALS DISTRIBUTING COMPANY OF EGYPT BILL
Brought from the Commons; read 1a, and referred to the Examiners.

  MINISTRY OF HOUSING NORTH EASTERN OFFICE
  MINISTRY OF HOUSING NORTH EASTERN OFFICE