Sitting of 19 June 1963

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
PRIVATE BUSINESS

  CLYWEDOG RESERVOIR JOINT AUTHORITY BILL [Lords]
  As amended, to be considered upon Tuesday next.
  GLASGOW CORPORATION ORDER CONFIRMATION
  Bill to confirm a Provisional Order under the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act 1936, relating to Glasgow Corporation, presented by Mr. Noble (under Section 7 of the Act); and ordered to be considered upon Tuesday next and to be printed. [Bill 123.]

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD

    Wood Pigeons
    Mr. Hastingsasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what were the results of the narcotic experiments on wood pigeons in the Bedfordshire and Huntingdonshire areas last winter; and what progress has been made on further research.
    The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Mr. James Scott-Hopkins): The experiments in the narcotising of wood pigeons last winter included two in Huntingdonshire but none in Bedfordshire. Because of adverse weather, none of the experiments could be continued long enough for a proper assessment of the effectiveness of this means of control or of the degree of risk to wild life and to game birds. The experiments have been discontinued during the summer months, as the birds will not take the
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    narcotised bait then, but further experiments are contemplated for the winter of 1963–64.
    Mr. Hastings: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that answer, but does he realise that damage from this pest was probably heavier in Bedfordshire than in any other part of the country during last winter and that it resulted in the ruin of more than one grower? Will he please press on energetically with these experiments, and will he consider publishing the results so that we may judge whether they are successful or not?
    Mr. Scott-Hopkins: I agree with my hon Friend in saying that the damage which wood pigeons do to crops is extensive, and we shall continue with our experiments in the future. The details of these trials will be published in Agriculture, a publication of the Ministry.

    Calves (Intensive Rearing Methods)
    Mr. Burdenasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he is aware that it is not possible for cases of cruelty to calves being reared by intensive methods for veal to be brought before the courts when they are confined in enclosed houses on private property and access can always be denied; and what steps he will take to ensure that adequate inspection of the methods employed can be carried out.
    The Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Mr. Christopher Soames): I cannot accept that it is not possible to bring before the courts any case of cruelty that may arise in such circumstances. The powers of the police under Section 12 of the Protection of Animals Act, 1911, enable them to act against any person whom they have reason to believe is guilty of such an offence. I would not feel justified in seeking powers of inspection in cases where there are no grounds for believing there is an offence.
    Mr. Burden: How is it possible for the police to enter upon private property to carry out an inspection without first obtaining a warrant so to do? How can the police bring an action if they have not the opportunity to go into these broiler houses at any time in order to ensure that they are properly and reasonably conducted along the lines that most humane people would require?
    Mr. Soames: My hon. Friend will appreciate that questions about the police and their powers are for my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary, but I am advised that if the police are satisfied that they have evidence that what is taking place on private premises amounts to a felony or a breach of the Act, they can exercise the right of entry.
    Mr. Burden: Is my right hon. Friend aware that his answer is totally unsatisfactory and unacceptable, since it merely exposes that it is, in fact, impossible to obtain any information in regard to these matters? If there is nothing to hide, why cannot my right hon. Friend make reasonable regulations to ensure that these animals are given proper periods of daylight and reasonable freedom of movement and that they receive a diet which is not deliberately designed to induce anaemia?
    Mr. Soames: We have given advice to farmers that satisfactory results can be obtained by allowing calves reasonable freedom of movement in ordinary accommodation and in small groups, keeping them not in darkness but in a subdued light.
    I do not know whether my hon. Friend is aware of the fact that these methods are not being used to any large extent. We made a survey in 1961, and our information then was that there were about 95 farmers indulging in this kind of calf rearing. I am informed that there has been a consistent lessening of the number since then. I do not believe that it is taking place to any great extent or in a way which involves cruelty to the animals, for it is an essential feature that the animals should thrive, and this cannot happen if there is cruelty.

    Timber (Import Duties)
    Mr. Gibson-Wattasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what consultations he had with the British forestry industry, before going to Geneva, about proposed changes in the levels of duties on imports of timber which compete with the home product.
    Mr. Soames: None, Sir; but before the G.A.T.T. meeting in Geneva, discussions took place between representatives of the Forestry Commission, the Board of Trade, the Forestry Committee of
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    Great Britain and the Federated Home Timber Associations, at which the views of the forestry industry were taken into account.
    Mr. Gibson-Watt: I am very glad to hear my right hon. Friend say that there was adequate consultation between the proper interests and the Ministries concerned. Will he bear in mind that the problem of standing hard woods can be particularly affected by steps of this sort and that it is not sufficient just to consult the Forestry Commission on matters of this sort simply because the other half of the industry happens to own about 90 per cent. of the matured timber? Although relations between both the private side and the State side of the forestry industry are of the highest order, will my right hon. Friend continue to ensure that private interests have then-say when matters of this sort are considered?
    Mr. Soames: I assure my hon. Friend that I am well aware of the need for this. As I said in my Answer, both the Forestry Committee of Great Britain and the Federated Home Timber Associations, with private interests, were represented at these meetings.

    Fish (Landing Regulations)
    Mr. Wolrige-Gordonasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he is satisfied that the present regulations governing the landing of fish in British ports do not place British fishermen under a disadvantage compared with their competitors in certain Scandinavian countries; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Soames: I am not aware that British fishermen are at any disadvantage against foreign fishermen as regards the landing of their fish in British ports. If my hon. Friend has in mind the effect on British fishermen of landing regulations operated in other countries, this is among the matters we would expect to be discussed at the Fisheries Conference later this year to which we have invited the Western European countries.
    Mr. Wolrige-Gordon: I thank my right hon. Friend for that reply, but is he aware that there has been feeling among inshore fishermen, particularly in my constituency, about the fact that, while they

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    have been free to land their catches in Norway, they have not received the same welcome in Sweden or Denmark? As these nations have freedom to land in our ports, cannot we ensure that our own fishermen are able to land in theirs if they wish to do so?
    Mr. Soames: Access to markets, not only to our market but also to other European markets, will obviously be one of the major matters to be discussed at the forthcoming Fisheries Conference which has been announced.

    Protection of Wild Life (Chemicals)
    Mr. Burdenasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food why his Department has recently published the booklet, entitled Chemicals for the Gardener, which contains, in a list of chemicals that can be safely used by gardeners and others without damage to wild life, such chemicals as Aldrin, Dieldrin, DDT and BHC, which are known to be persistently poisonous to almost all animals and birds.
    Mrs. Butlerasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what considerations governed the selection of garden chemicals approved as safe in the booklet, Chemicals for the Gardener.
    Mr. Farrasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will withdraw from circulation the book let, published by his Department, entitled Chemicals for the Gardener, in view of the unsubstantiated information contained therein.
    Mr. Soames: This booklet was published to help gardeners choose the right chemical and use it in the correct way. Of the listed chemicals, all the chlorinated hydro-carbons have been considered by the Advisory Committee on Poisonous Substances and the guidance contained in the booklet takes account of the recommendations of the Advisory Committee for their safe use.
    The use of chlorinated hydro-carbons as seed dressings has already been severely restricted, but other uses of these chemicals in pesticides have not so far been considered to offer serious hazards to wild life.
    In view of the continuing concern expressed by the wild life societies that
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    other uses of these chemicals in agriculture and in gardens may also be responsible for some bird deaths, I have asked the Advisory Committee to undertake a further examination, taking into account all recent evidence, and to make a report to me.
    Mr. Burden: I am most grateful to my right hon. Friend for his Answer. Will he undertake to ensure that in future there is a thorough investigation into all of these new insecticides before they are introduced, because there is very great concern in this country about the loss of wild life as a result of the introduction of chemicals which might do damage and even cause death and suffering to animals?
    Mr. Soames: I can certainly give my hon. Friend that assurance. His anxiety about the possible effects on wild life through the use of chemicals is widely felt, not least by myself. We have this Advisory Committee which covers all interests and which has a great deal of knowledge. I can give my hon. Friend the assurance that all chemicals will be referred to this body, and we shall ask it to look at any new evidence which there is.
    Mrs. Butler: Nevertheless, is it not very serious that this list has been published, and is there not great public concern about the dangers of farm and garden chemicals? Many people are led to think that if they follow this list they will be safe and that there will be no persistent danger to birds and animals. Will not this list as published by the Ministry do more harm than good in this serious situation?
    Mr. Soames: I could not accept that. Perhaps I can help the hon. Lady. These chemicals to which she refers—all the chlorinated hydro-carbons and persistent chemicals—have all been examined by the Advisory Committee. As a result of the advice which it gave to me, we had a meeting with all the interests concerned, and the decision which was taken was that these chemicals should not be used as seed dressing during the spring and should be used only in certain circumstances during the autumn. This has been followed and the effect has been a very appreciable diminution in the number of birds found dead and sent to the laboratories

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    for autopsy. This was the only recommendation concerning these particular chemicals. They have been used for things other than seed dressing, and they are still so used.
    What I am saying is that, in view of the anxiety expressed by certain societies that even in the use to which chemicals are now being put other than as seed dressing they may still be causing an undue number of deaths among wild life, this anxiety should be communicated to the Advisory Committee, which would report to me.
    Mr. Farr: As my right hon. Friend has agreed that there are some grounds for reappraisal of the contents of this booklet, will be confirm that it will be withdrawn from circulation to prevent further damage from being done?
    Mr. Soames: Certainly not. I am not confirming anything. What I am saying is that certain societies have said that, in their view, there is evidence that birds have been killed through having had contact with or having eaten chemicals other than those used for seed dressings and that this matter should be examined by the Advisory Committee, which I must look to. All that this published booklet does is to include these chemicals. It does not say that they should be used as seed dressings and it follows the advice given to me by the Advisory Committee. I do not think that there is anything unusual in referring this question back to the Advisory Committee. We must remain constantly vigilant, and no doubt if fresh evidence comes to light it will be noted.
    Mr. Darling: Is it not the fact that there is no conclusive evidence that these chemicals are harmless? All that we have up to now is evidence that over a short period they have not caused a great deal of damage. Is it not also the case that in another place the Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food announced on Monday that the Advisory Committee had not approved this booklet in the form in which it has appeared? In those circumstances, should not the booklet be withdrawn?
    Mr. Soames: No, Sir. What the Parliamentary Secretary said was that the booklet itself was not sent to the
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    Advisory Committee. There was no need to do that. All that the Advisory Committee has done has been to look at the chemicals in the booklet, particularly the hydro-carbons. It has not examined all the chemicals. For instance, some of the older ones which have been in use longer have not yet been through the Advisory Committee, but all the persistent and chlorinated hydrocarbons have been examined.
    Mr. Darling: Very unsatisfactory.
    Mr. Farrasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what consideration is given to the effects on wild life before farm and garden chemicals are approved for use under the Agricultural Chemicals Approval Scheme.
    Mr. Soames: Before a product containing a new chemical can be added to the list of approved products under the Agricultural Chemicals Approval Scheme, the Advisory Committee on Poisonous Substances must issue recommendations for its safe use. Under this scheme the Committee requires manufacturers to provide experimental data on the effect of the product on wild life, and must be satisfied with this and other information on wild life hazards before giving clearance.
    Mr. Farr: Is my right hon. Friend aware that in the booklet Chemicals for the Gardener, the Agricultural Chemicals Approval Organisation recommends the use of Aldrin, Dieldrin and other poisons which are known to be toxically effective on animals and wild birds?
    Mr. Soames: When the Organisation examined the matter, its recommendation was that these chemicals should not be used as seed dressings during the spring or during the autumn, except in certain circumstances. The booklet does not recommend their use as seed dressings.
    Mrs. Butler: On a point of order. In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the Minister's reply, both to this and to earlier Questions, I beg to give notice that I shall seek an early opportunity of raising the matter on the Adjournment.
    Mr. Speaker: The hon. Lady has to confine her notice to this Question; but it will work.

    Oryx
    Sir B. Jannerasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what has been the cost involved in the Order dated 20th May, 1963, authorising the landing at London Airport of three oryx from Kenya; and when it will be possible to simplify the procedure involved in such matters.
    Mr. Scott-Hopkins: The cost of preparing and publishing the Order was about £15 10s. Only two Orders have been made since 1950 to authorise the transhipment of animals coming from a foreign country. Such movements are allowed only very exceptionally and I do not consider that any change in the arrangements is necessary.
    Sir B. Janner: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that all this is quite unnecessary? The Order comes here and is shoved into a hole somewhere in the Library. No one ever looks at these Orders or cares about them, except perhaps myself when I occasionally look at them to see what money is being wasted. Why cannot the hon. Gentleman dispense with this Order altogether and rely on the rest of the procedure which enables these animals to be examined before and when they arrive here? Is it not sheer nonsense to keep on this bit of red tape?
    Mr. Scott-Hopkins: I cannot accept that. It is very important for the health of animals that these Orders should be in force. They give a great measure of protection to animal health in this country.

    White Fish Authority (Levy)
    Mr. Wallasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, what decision he has made about the proposed increase in the White Fish Authority's levy.
    Mr. Soames: I will make an announcement as soon as possible.
    Mr. Wall: Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that there is widespread feeling in the industry that the work of the Authority in research and advertisement is duplicating the work of other sections of the industry, that administrative expenses are very high and that there is considerable resistance to the increase in the levy?
    Mr. Soames: Yes, but there is also considerable support for the existence of the White Fish Authority and a realisation that it must have funds to keep itself going and that a lot of the research which is done is of the highest value. I am balancing the many representations which I have received, and I hope to make an announcement in the near future.

    Food Imports (Standard Quantity Concept)
    Mr. Peartasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will present a White Paper giving details as to how he will operate the new system of control of food imports combined with the standard quantity concept for home production which he announced on 22nd May, 1963.
    Mr. Soames: The consultations on detailed arrangements to which I referred on 22nd May are proceeding and I will inform the House as soon as I am able to amplify what I said then.
    Mr. Peart: How will the Minister inform the House? Will it be by a White Paper? Will we be able to judge which organisations have been consulted in the working out of the details of the Minister's policy? Can we have some further information now?
    Mr. Soames: So many organisations have been consulted that I would not like to name them off the cuff, but if the hon. Member will put down a Question I can certainly answer it. It is too early yet to say what form any further statement should take. There is to be the first meeting in the coming week of the cereals group of G.A.T.T. in Geneva. This is our first formal contact in a large body with our overseas suppliers. I will, however, keep the House informed as we go along.
    Mr. Stodart: Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that there are a great many farmers whose conception of "standard quantity" is that this is a restrictive measure which imposes a standard quantity upon individual farms, when, in fact, it does nothing of the kind but is a stimulus to greater competitive production by efficient producers? Will my right hon. Friend make this clear?
    Mr. Soames: Yes, I certainly will. Indeed, I will make clear that we do not

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    have it in mind in any way to relate the standard quantity to terms of a quota per farm for cereals or fat stock. Looking at the list of other commodities on which there are already standard quantities, I do not believe that anybody need have cause to think that that is likely to happen.

    Smallholdings (Committee)
    Mr. Peartasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will announce the composition of the committee to investigate agricultural smallholdings policy.
    Mr. Soames: I am not yet in a position to announce the members of the Committee, but I will do so as soon as possible.
    Mr. Peart: I hope that when the Minister announces his decision there will be a statement to the effect that the Committee will at least include a representative of the trade unions concerned. After all, this is a matter which affects them.
    Mr. Soames: I appreciate fully the concern of the National Union of Agricultural Workers with statutory smallholdings, and I am confident that Professor Wise and his Committee will want to hear any evidence which the union may care to put forward. My aim, however, is to set up a Committee which will be accepted on all sides as being fully independent. For that reason, I am inviting members with wide experience, including a senior official of a national trade union. In the circumstances, it would be wrong to invite, as it were, representational members to serve on the Committee.
    Mr. Harold Davies: Is the Minister aware that many of us are interested in this matter and that the Committee can make a constructive contribution towards smallholdings policy? Will he, therefore, urge that the work be undertaken as soon as possible?
    Mr. Soames: Yes, Sir. I announced shortly before the Whit sun Recess that we had decided to set up the Committee and that Professor Wise would chair it. I am now busy inviting others to serve on it, and as soon as their names can be given I will inform the House.

    Committee on Transaction in Seeds (Report)
    Mr. Godman Irvineasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether, in view of the decision of Her Majesty's Government to give legislative effect to the recommendations of the Committee on Transaction in Seeds, and of the measure of agreement which exists within the industry on the proposals, he will introduce this Bill in the next Session of Parliament.
    Mr. Soames: The Government realise the importance of legislation on this subject and intend to introduce a Bill as soon as Parliamentary time permits. But I cannot yet say whether it will be possible to find a place for it in the legislature programme for next Session.
    Mr. Irvine: Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that one of the reasons why so many of the modern varieties of seeds and plants that are used in this country are imported from abroad is the protection which is given to breeders in other countries? Is it not urgent, therefore, that our breeders should be given the opportunity of competing with them on fair terms by having the same sort of protection in this country?
    Mr. Soames: I cannot dissent from what my hon. Friend says. There is, of course, a wide measure of agreement for legislation among all concerned. I would not expect it to be controversial in principle. All I am saying at the moment is that we would like to proceed with it but that it is a question of finding Parliamentary time.

    Covent Garden Market
    Mr. John Hallasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he has now considered the report submitted to the Covent Garden Market Authority on the re-location of Covent Garden Market; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Soames: The report was commissioned by the Covent Garden Market Authority and is addressed to them. They are at present consulting the interests affected. On this basis they will form their own view and will then make recommendations to me. These I await.
    Mr. Hall: Does my right hon. Friend realise that of all the sites examined the

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    last site that is likely to be chosen for the redevelopment of the Market is the Covent Garden Market site itself, and that in order to site it anywhere else the Act would have to be amended? Would it not save time if my right hon. Friend were to introduce amending legislation now?
    Mr. Soames: The House would find considerable difficulty in introducing amending legislation to put the Market elsewhere without specifying where it is to be put. It would be more advisable to await the decision of the Authority which was set up by this House to decide upon the rebuilding of Covent Garden, and then for the Government to make up their mind. If the Market is to be put outside Covent Garden—and I agree with my hon. Friend that the most likely solution appears to be that it should be outside that area—this could be arranged through a Private Bill emanating from the Authority itself.
    Mr. Hall: Does not my right hon. Friend remember the Amendment which I sought to introduce, which would have given the Authority the right to select alternative sites? This would be a quite simple Measure to introduce.
    Mr. Soames: I remember my hon. Friend's Amendment, which would enable the Authority to rebuild the Market on any approved site outside the Covent Garden area. My hon. Friend maintained that the Authority should be left free to decide where to develop the Market. It was largely because of recommendations by my hon. Friend and others, both here and in another place, that during the passage of the Bill the Government made it clear that if the Authority decided that it wanted to go outside the Covent Garden area we would not stand in its way in proceeding by a Private Bill. It would not, however, have been acceptable to the House, nor do I think that it would be acceptable today, to pass legislation giving the Authority carte blanche about where the site should be before the location of the site is decided.

    Sugar Board (Distribution Payments)
    Mr. Milneasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what sum was paid out to retail distributors
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    arising from the recent decision of the Sugar Board.
    Mr. Soames: None, Sir. The distribution payments are made by the Sugar Board to the refiners at the point where raw sugar passes out of bond into the refineries. The consequential reduction in the price of refined sugar is passed on by the refiners to the retail distributors and other customers.
    Mr. Milne: Is the right hon. Gentleman absolutely convinced that the interests of the housewife and the consumer were fully protected by this machinery? Will he examine it with a view to tightening it up?
    Mr. Soames: I believe that the measures we put into operation just before the Whitsun Recess have enabled the consumers and the housewives to have the fullest advantage from the Commonwealth Sugar Agreement. This has always been and remains the Government's intention.
    Mrs. Slater: Does not the right hon. Member agree that these steps should have been taken very much earlier so that the housewife was not held to ransom not only by high prices but by conditions of sale? In some shops house wives were told that they could not have sugar without buying another commodity as well.
    Mr. Soames: I cannot accept that it would have been reasonable to have done this sooner. The retail price began to rise early in May at a time when the world price was rising exceedingly steeply—so steeply that it could not possibly have been forecast. Then the wheels were put into motion and by about the middle of May—or at any rate by the end of May—we had laid these Orders. In fact, our prices were well below world prices in early May. There was a period of only about two or three weeks at the most when prices were higher than we would like to have seen.

  MINISTRY OF DEFENCE

    Mixed-Manned Nuclear Force
    Mr. Zilliacusasked the Minister of Defence to what extent since the

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    Ottawa talks it is the policy of Her Majesty's Government to participate in a mixed-manned multilateral fleet commanded by the United States of America, as well as to build submarines armed with Polaris missiles supplied by the United States of America; and what will be the position of the British naval contingent in the mixed-manned fleet when British V-bombers and Polaris submarines are withdrawn from the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation command and used independently, without United States support or approval, in a supreme national emergency.
    The Minister of Defence (Mr. Peter Thorneycroft): I would refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply given by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister yesterday. In view of this, the second half of the Question is hypothetical.
    Mr. Zilliacus: Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that yesterday's reply did not cover the question of how the Government propose to reconcile their position as the second mate of a multilateral ship under a German first officer and an American skipper with acting as a nuclear general officer at home in engaging in thermo-nuclear war without the United States?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: These are interesting problems, but they are hypothetical, depending on decisions to come.
    Mr. Wall: Will the right hon. Gentleman confirm that if we take part in this force it will in no way affect completion of our Polaris submarine programme or our independent nuclear deterrent?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: This affects a very wide range of defence costing, but it will not affect the independent nuclear deterrent.
    Mr. Healey: In view of the fact that the Prime Minister committed the Government to using their best endeavours to develop a multilateral force in which our Polaris submarines would be integrated, if the Government are not now prepared to participate in the mixed-manned force, what other proposal are they making?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: I have made it clear that the Government have fully implemented their part of the arrangement envisaged at Nassau. We have
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    undertaken the development of Polaris submarines which will be subscribed to N.A.T.O. All this is being carried out and is well advanced. At no stage have we committed ourselves to subscribe to a mixed-manned surface ship force. This is a separate problem under consideration at the present time, but no decision has been taken.
    Mr. Healey: Possibly the right hon. Gentleman has been too busy to read the text of the Bahamas Communiqué. If he has read it, he will be aware that the Government have committed themselves in so many words to using their being endeavours to develop a N.A.T.O. multilateral nuclear force. Does he think that the proposal made at Ottawa fulfils fully the Government's commitments in this respect?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: The hon. Gentleman is getting a little muddled about the word "multilateral". As used at Nassau it was in the widest sense, including the subscription of national forces to N.A.T.O. This was fully understood, and it is accepted by everyone, including the Americans, that we have not entered into any commitment.
    Mr. P. Williamsasked the Minister of Defence whether he will now issue a White Paper on Defence to include the views of the Government on the practicality, or otherwise, of a mixed-manned nuclear force.
    Mr. Thorneycroft: No, Sir.
    Mr. Williams: In view of the general dissatisfaction, to put it no higher, which existed in the House at the time of the issue of the Defence White Paper earlier this year, would not my right hon. Friend agree that there are certain gaps in the Government's defence policy which now need to be filled, more particularly on the issue of the mixed-manned nuclear force? Would he not agree that this is a matter of such importance that it merits, first, a White Paper, secondly, a debate, and, thirdly, a decision by the House as to the stupidity of this project?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: I happen to have thought that the White Paper to which my hon. Friend refers was one of the best White Papers on defence published by either party in the House of Commons. But as no decision has been

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    reached on this matter, it is hardly a subject for a White Paper at the moment.

    Service Departments (Electronic Computers)
    Mr Bellengerasked the Minister of Defence whether, in considering the reorganisation of the service departments, he proposes to extend the electronic computer organisation at present used by the Army for pay and other administrative purposes to the other two armed services.
    Mr. Thorneycroft: Electronic computers will be brought into use in all three Services, but it may not be economic or advisable to site them all together.

    Admiral Claude Ricketts (Visit)
    Mr. Croninasked the Minister of Defence if he will make a statement on the recent visit of Admiral Claude Ricketts, the United States Vice-Chief of Naval Operations, and indicate what decisions have been reached as a result of this visit.
    Mr. Thorneycroft: Discussions with Admiral Ricketts covered both the broad military issues and the more detailed and technical questions to which the proposed force gives rise. They were of considerable value to ourselves and, I think, to the United States.
    Mr. Cronin: Bearing in mind that up to the time of the visit the Admiralty was very largely opposed to a multilateral force, was the Admiral's visit so persuasive that it produced a change of mind in the Admiralty?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: There is no question of anyone being in favour of or opposed to this idea. It is under consideration.
    Mr. Emrys Hughes: Has the right hon. Gentleman's attention been directed to certain important criticisms of this scheme made by Field Marshal Montgomery in another place? In view of the Field Marshal's eminence and his knowledge of these matters, and in the light of his criticisms, will not the right hon. Gentleman consider naming the first of these ships H.M.S. "Poppycock"?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: I have considered all the arguments which are going on about this force. No decision has been taken. I think that it is a project which deserves serious consideration. I do not think that it is sensible to sneer at ideas put forward by our allies. We may agree or disagree with them, but they always merit serious, proper and full consideration.
    Mr. Healey: Can the right hon. Gentleman give some idea of when the Government expect to conclude their consideration and take a decision on this matter?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: No, Sir. Nor do I think it right to rush into decisions which would involve, in any event, the expenditure of several hundreds of millions of pounds by Western Europe. These are matters which deserve careful consideration.
    Mr. Shinwellasked the Minister of Defence what submissions were made to Her Majesty's Government by the representative of the United States of America who recently visited the United Kingdom on the creation of a mixed-manned nuclear force; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Biggs-Davisonasked the Minister of Defence if he will make a statement on the result of the official visit of Admiral Ricketts.
    Mr. Healeyasked the Minister of Defence if he will make a statement on his recent talks with Admiral Ricketts of the United States Navy.
    Mr. Thorneycroft: Discussions with Admiral Ricketts covered both the broad military issues and the more detailed and technical questions to which the proposed force gives rise. They were of considerable value to ourselves and, I think, to the United States.
    Mr. Shinwell: Does not the right hon. Gentleman consider that to be a most inadequate reply? If it is the intention of the Government to proceed with this fantastic scheme, have they considered what the cost would be and, in particular, how the scheme would become operative? These are not hypothetical questions. Would the right hon. Gentleman be good enough to inform the House of what is actually in his mind?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: I think that it is an adequate answer. The visit of Admiral Ricketts was of great value. He was able to describe to us the broad military thinking which underlay the American proposals in this matter. I think that it would be wrong for me to enter into further details upon this until we have had time to give full consideration to this as well as to the political issues involved.
    Mr. Biggs-Davison: Would it not have saved this distinguished officer a journey and this House considerable anxiety if the Government had made up their mind that we must concentrate our limited resources on our own nuclear deterrent force whether this is placed alongside the forces of allies or not? Will the Government now come to a decision and perhaps seize the opportunity of the visit of President Kennedy to make their decision perfectly clear?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: It might have saved Admiral Ricketts a journey, but it would have been a discourtesy to an ally and an ill service to the House of Commons not to have informed ourselves fully on these matters.
    Mr. Healey: Is it not now four months since this proposal was first made officially by the American Government to its allies? Are the Government to go on shilly-shallying for ever? On the technical question of the military feasibility of the proposed force, as a result of the discussions with Admiral Ricketts, can the right hon. Gentleman answer three questions which have been widely discussed in the Press and which have seriously disturbed hon. Members on both sides of the House?
    First, does he think that the accuracy of the missiles carried by such a force will be sufficient to allow it to be used in an interdictory rôle by the N.A.T.O. Supreme Commander? Secondly, does he believe that such a force would be sufficiently invulnerable to escape destruction before it was required to be used? Thirdly, in spite of all the evidence, does he now believe—[Hon. Members: "Too long."]—It is not too long. This is a very important matter indeed, and so far hon. Members opposite have avoided discussing it. Thirdly, will the right hon. Gentleman say whether he believes that mixed crews of the nature pro-
    444
    posed by the United States could be used operationally in tune of war?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: The hon. Member has asked a series of questions on only one part of this problem, concerned with the feasibility of this proposal, but there is the question of the requirement as a whole and as to whether it is necessary, apart from its feasibility. On top of that, there is the question of the foreign policy, or political, side. Those things are better dealt with together when the decision is taken.
    Sir J. Eden: Can my right hon. Friend say whether this proposal is being put forward by the Americans principally on the ground that this is the best way of preventing a further spread of nuclear weapons to other countries, and, if so, can he then declare that the political considerations are taking precedence over military practicality?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: This is undoubtedly, and is well known to be, a factor in the minds of the Americans at present, but it would be quite wrong in question and answer to isolate one factor and pay too much attention to it.
    Mr. P. Williams: On a point of order. In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the answer, I beg to give notice that I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment.

    Service Departments (Reorganisation)
    Mr. Croninasked the Minister of Defence what arrangements he envisages for co-ordinating aircraft and missile research and development for the three Services, as part of his proposed reorganisation of the Services.
    Mr. Shepherdasked the Minister of Defence what savings in the administrative staffs of the three Services and the Ministry of Defence he anticipates will result when the full arrangements for unification are in operation.
    Mr. Thorneycroft: Details of the proposed defence reorganisation will be published in a White Paper next month.
    Mr. Cronin: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the present Government have spent over £200 million on aircraft and missiles that have been cancelled before going into service? Is it not, therefore, a matter of top priority that the

    445
    co-ordination of research and development on aircraft and missiles should be considered?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: It is certainly necessary that co-ordination of the aircraft and missiles programmes should be considered. Without accepting in any way the hon. Member's figures, I think he will find it extremely difficult to name any country which has not spent large sums of money on aircraft and missiles which have later been cancelled.
    Mr. Cronin: Will the right hon. Gentleman reconsider his reluctance to accept these figures, since they were included in a written answer from the Ministry of Aviation on Monday?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: Not even that will prevent me considering it.
    Mr. Bellenger: The right hon. Gentleman has stated that an announcement is to be made in a White Paper. Is he intending to make that White Paper so expansive that he can indicate in more than a general way how he will unify the Service organisations, so that we can test whether there is to be real integration—which, I gather, is the purpose of the exercise?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: I hope so. I know that the right hon. Gentleman has followed this matter very closely, but I ask him to await the White Paper. It will be in reasonable detail and will give him an opportunity of forming an opinion on the points he has very properly in mind.
    Mr. Shinwell: Is it the intention to submit the White Paper to the House for preliminary discussions, or to obtain a decision by the House? Is it not extremely important that there should be very careful consideration by right hon. and hon. Members before the Government come to a conclusion?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: It is always the purpose of White Papers to inform the House of Commons. I have always made it plain that I value the advice of the House in matters of this kind. These will be Government proposals for the reorganisation of defence, but this covers a vast field and there is plenty of opportunity for debate about details which I shall be interested to listen to.

    Multilateral Naval Nuclear Force
    Mr. John Hallasked the Minister of Defence what is the estimated cost to Great Britain of participation in the multi lateral naval nuclear force; and what consequent reductions this would impose on other forms of defence expenditure.
    Mr. Thorneycroft: No decision has yet been made to contribute. The cost to us and thus the affects elsewhere would depend on the form and size of whatever contribution we might decide to make.
    Mr. Hall: Does not my right hon. Friend agree that this proposal was considered by our defence experts some years ago and dismissed at that time as impracticable? Would it not be most unfortunate if we agreed to go on with this scheme and then found that we had to reduce expenditure on much more essential defence needs elsewhere, a proposal which would meet with considerable opposition from hon. Members on both sides of the House?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: My hon. Friend is quite right to say that priorities in defence expenditure are certainly a very important factor in any decision that we reach.
    Mr. Shinwell: In reply to a previous Question on this subject, did not the right hon. Gentleman say that the cost would be several hundreds of millions of £s? Has he no idea in his head of what it is likely to cost? Are we not entitled to have some inkling from the right hon. Gentleman about the financial details?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: If one wants to know rather more about a project than the fact that it may cost several hundreds of millions of £s, the cost to us would depend first on a decision whether we were going to do it, and that has not yet been taken, and, secondly, we would want to know what percentage of that several hundreds of millions of £s we were prepared to pay. In the circumstances, it is not possible to answer questions on these lines.
    Mr. Burden: Is it not clear that if we embarked on this scheme it would cost several hundreds of millions of £s and would not in any way subscribe to our defence against traditional weapons, and that in order to find the money it would

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    be necessary to restrict or cut back our anti-submarine killer submarine programme, which must at all times be given the highest possible priority?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: I should make it plain that I am not questioning the validity of these arguments. When I speak of several hundreds of millions of £s I am referring to the total cost and not to the percentage which might be subscribed by this country.
    Mr. Healey: Will the right hon. Gentleman at least tell the House whether, if the Government accept a contribution towards this project, the cost will be taken out of the Naval Appropriation, like the cost of the Polaris submarine programme? Is he aware that many of hon. Members on both sides of the House would regard this as a defence disaster of the first magnitude?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: That is an entirely hypothetical question, because no decision has been made to do this or how much we would do if we did. Therefore, it is quite idle to discuss which Vote it would come under

    Military Base, Kenya
    Mr. Healeyasked the Minister of Defence what is the total expenditure of Her Majesty's Government on creating a military base in Kenya over the last five years.
    Mr. Thorneycroft: A little over £5½ million.
    Mr. Healey: Can the right hon. Gentleman explain how it is possible, when there is supposed to be a Cabinet sitting on this country, that Her Majesty's Government should have decided to spend an amount of this magnitude on a base in Kenya at a time when they had already decided to transfer power in Kenya to African politicians who were known to want to discontinue the base as soon as they had independence?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: What the programme of expansion was planned, it was not unreasonable to assume that the base would be available for many years. If it were possible to foresee the future for many years, a great many financial positions, in public and private life, would be very different.
    Mr. P. Williams: May I ask my right hon. Friend for some information? How much of this money was spent in Kenya and how much to the advantage of the Kenya economy?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: I could not answer that without notice, but I will try to give my hon. Friend that information.

  ROYAL NAVY

    H.M.S. "Blake"
    Mr. Willisasked the Civil Lord of the Admiralty what consideration has been given to the possible use of H.M.S. "Blake" for sea-going training: and what has been the result.
    The Civil Lord of the Admiralty (Mr. John Hay): Consideration has been given to the possible use of H.M.S. "Blake" for sea-going training, but the temporary manpower shortages which have prevented her return to operational service also mean that we have not the necessary trained men to use her as a training ship.
    Mr. Willis: But surely the hon. Gentleman realises that the proposition I made during the debate on the Navy Estimates was that some of the trainees should take the place of the men we were short of and in that way receive a certain amount of training? Are we to understand that, in spite of supplementation from trainees, there is still a shortage of electrical and other manpower?
    Mr. Hay: Yes, Sir. The difficulty is that if what the hon. Gentleman is suggesting is that the ship should be used as a training ship for these technical personnel, which I understood was the suggestion he made in the debate, we have not the senior instructors to give them the training at sea which they would require. This is our main difficulty. We have a temporary shortage in these particularly sensitive fields, and much as the advice and the suggestion were valuable, I am afraid that they are not practicable.
    Mr. E. L. Mallalieu: Is it still the policy of Her Majesty's Government to build ships which they have not men specialised in their particular tasks to man?
    Mr. Hay: No, Sir. That has never been the policy of Her Majesty's Government, and is not now.
    Mr. Dalyellasked the Civil Lord of the Admiralty why H.M.S. "Blake" is to be put into reserve; and if he will make a statement on the shortage of specialist manpower.
    Mr. Hay: In the debate on the Vote on Account on 18th March last my predecessor gave the answer to the first part of the Question at some length. He also said that there was a long list of remedies, both short-term and long-term, which were in hand to overcome shortages of skilled men, but that these would take time to become effective. I will write to the hon. Member to give him the full details of the measures in hand.
    Mr. Dalyell: Why were not these shortages foreseen in the first place?
    Mr. Hay: These shortages were not foreseen simply because certain events happened which could not possibly have been foreseen. In particular, we were able to make much better progress than we had expected in the commissioning of ships, and that caused a temporary shortage here. There were certain changes in the run-down in Malta which also caused a problem. The whole matter has been gone into in detail, and I do not think that it would help to go over it again. This is not the result of being foolish and not looking forward; it is the result of success in our efforts.
    Mr. Willis: But is the hon. Gentleman aware that many of the skilled men that he is now recruiting will be required for the Polaris programme? When can we expect H.M.S. "Blake" to go into commission again, with electrical and other branches?
    Mr. Hay: There are certain types of job which may be common but I am advised there are not many, and that particular problem is not likely to arise.
    Miss Vickers: May I ask my hon. Friend what success he has had in the recruitment of these special technicians? I had a reply from his hon. Friend previously saying that a special recruiting campaign was going on. Can my hon. Friend tell me how many men he has recruited?
    Mr. Hay: I should like my hon. Friend to put that Question on the Order Paper.

    H.M. Dockyards (Manpower)
    Mr. Willisasked the Civil Lord of the Admiralty what is the estimated normal annual wastage of manpower in the dockyards at Chatham, Portsmouth, and Devonport, respectively.
    Mr. Hay: Estimated annual normal wastage at the three southern dockyards is:

    Portsmouth

    1,600

    Devonport

    1,200

    Chatham

    900

    Mr. Willis: Is the hon. Gentleman aware of the fact that he said the decline in manpower required at the dockyards was likely to be more than these figures? Are we to take it that the Admiralty now contemplates cutting the manpower used in these dockyards by more than these figures?
    Mr. Hay: No, Sir. The hon. Gentleman should not jump to that conclusion at all.
    Miss Vickers: May I ask my hon. Friend whether he has any intention of visiting these various dockyards to ascertain the position for himself, and whether he is going there in the near future?
    Mr. Hay: The answer to both parts of the Question is "Yes".
    Mr. Willis: The hon. Gentleman will realise that the statement made before the Whitsun Recess was that the decline would be made up of these men plus certain other categories. Therefore, it must be greater than the numbers he has indicated.
    Mr. Hay: The words that I used on 29th May were:
    "But the order and magnitude of the problem is such that we expect normal wastage, the adjustment of overtime, a fall in the number of men employed over 65 and restriction on adult entry to go a long way towards its solution."—[Official Report, 29th May, 1963, Vol. 678. c. 1323.]
    Mr. Burden: Is my hon. Friend aware that what is normally called wastage is a very serious matter, because what it really means is that when a man retires from a job there is not another job for

    451
    another man looking for employment What we want to see is this Government maintaining in the Royal Dockyards the present standard of employment and the same number, at least, of people employed there as are employed at the moment.
    Mr. Hay: The use of the expression "wastage" can cover a great many things. The wastage that I had in mind in preparing my answer to the Question covered things like death, discharge and voluntary retirement. There is, of course, a lot of room for misunderstanding of what wastage can mean. A promotion can involve no wastage if the job is phased out. On the other hand, a single promotion could involve wastage of up to six or seven people, so I think that one has to be a little careful in using the expression wastage in that sense.

    International Indian Ocean Expedition
    Mr. Hector Hughesasked the Civil Lord of the Admiralty if he is yet in a position to make a statement on the progress made by the international fleet, including the£800,000 Royal Research Ship "Discovery", built in Aberdeen, which is exploring the fishing grounds of the Indian Ocean; and when that fleet will direct its scientific activities to exploring the North Sea and fishing grounds further north.
    Mr. Hay: R.R.S. "Discovery" sailed as recently as 31st May last, for a period on station with the International Indian Ocean Expedition which is expected to continue until September next year. There is no proposal that the group of ships which have converged on the Indian Ocean to play their parts in this international project of common world interest should transfer their activities to the North Sea or Northern Waters.
    Mr. Hughes: But does not the Minister realise that, in view of the large financial and other contributions which Britain in general and Aberdeen in particular have made to this expedition, some provision should be made for the exploration of the fishing potentialities of the North Sea and of Britain's interest in those fishing areas in particular, and will the hon.
    452
    Gentleman take steps to see that some return is made to Britain for those large financial contributions to this expedition?
    Mr. Hay: I refer the hon. and learned Gentleman to the replies which were given to him on 6th February and 10th April last by my predecessor, who also sent him a copy of the United Kingdom's Scientific Programmes during the International Indian Ocean Expedition. It would, I am afraid, be a complete misuse of the function for which the ship was designed to detail her for inshore and near-water fisheries research.

    Admiralty Works Service Staff (Transfer)
    Mr. Boydenasked the Civil Lord of the Admiralty (1) on what date the transfer of the Admiralty works service staff to the Ministry of Public Building and Works took place;
    (2) what consultations took place with the Staff Side, and when, with regard to the transfer of the Admiralty works service to the Ministry of Public Building and Works.
    Mr. Hay: The date of transfer was 1st April, 1963. A special Sub-Committee of the Admiralty Administrative Whitley Council met twice in February, 1963, to discuss problems thrown up by the transfer. The question was also reviewed at a full meeting of the A.A.W.C on 26th March. In addition there was consultation at local level regarding allocation of staff between the Ministry and certain tasks which were to remain with the Admiralty.
    Mr. Boyden: It is most extraordinary. It takes the Admiralty about three months to decide how to buy books for students, and it takes less than two months to make arrangements for the transfer of millions of pounds' worth of building organisation, when the Admiralty have a very long tradition of building. How does it come about that adequate preparation was made to make this transfer at such short notice?
    Mr. Hay: I think the usual efficiency of the Service Departments. All this happened before my time, but as far as I know the trade union side has expressed itself reasonably satisfied and happy with the arrangements which have been made.

    453
    If it has any views to the contrary, I should be only too willing to look into them.
    Mr. Boyden: Would not it be more correct to say that a political decision was taken to make the transfer, and that no preparatory work worth talking about was done at all?
    Mr. Hay: The hon. Gentleman is as inaccurate as usual.

  BRITISH ARMY

    Officer Cadets (Medical Students)
    Mr. Hector Hughesasked the Secretary of State for War if he will state the special terms offered to medical students to become officer cadets in the Army; and what have been the results.
    The Under-Secretary of State and Financial Secretary for War (Mr. James Ramsden): To qualify for the medical cadetship scheme, a medical student must have passed his second M.B. or equivalent examination and be prepared to serve after registration for a minimum period of five years with the Royal Army Medical Corps. When accepted he is granted a probationary commission as a Second Lieutenant. He is then entitled to Army pay and allowances and in addition the War Department pay his tuition fees. So far 139 students have been accepted under the scheme.
    Mr. Hughes: I agree that this scheme is beneficial to the Army, to the public and to medical students in general. Would the hon. Gentleman give an assurance that there is no bias against Scottish medical students?
    Mr. Ramsden: I am glad to hear the hon. and learned Gentleman welcomes the scheme, which I agree is a good one. I think that it will help to increase the total number of entrants into the medical profession, both civilian and military. As regards the numbers from Scotland entering the scheme, the figure is 24, which I think is more than in proportion.
    Mr. Paget: Is this really a good system? Is this system whereby various Government Departments try to poach people who are urgently required under the National Health Service a sensible way to do it? Would it not be far better
    454
    to have the National Health Service dealing with the medical requirements of all Government Departments, including the Army?
    Mr. Ramsden: As I believe was explained to the hon. and learned Member when he raised this question before, this has to be seen against the background of a transition from a system under which doctors were conscripted to one under which they have to be persuaded to join voluntarily, and the rewards offered under this scheme reflect the added disturbance which doctors in military life have to experience compared with their civilian counterparts.

DURHAM PRISON (COMMITTEE OF INQUIRY)
The following Question stood upon the Order Paper:
Mr. Grey: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will publish the report of the inquiry by the Visiting Committee into Mr. Edmund Cronkshaw's allegations of ill-treatment of prisoners at Durham prison; and whether he will make a statement.
The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Henry Brooke): With your permission, Mr. Speaker, and that of the House I will now answer Question No. 63.
Yes, Sir, and copies will be available to hon. Members in the Vote Office this afternoon.
Mr. Cronkshaw, a former prisoner, made 11 allegations of ill-treatment of other prisoners at Durham while he was there. The Visiting Committee finds that eight of these allegations were without foundation of any kind.
Of the remaining three, it reports that one involved a conflict of evidence but, even if true, was not of a serious nature; that one disclosed a defect in prison routine, which is being looked into, but no negligence or irregularity on the part of the officers concerned; and that one, which also involved a conflict of evidence, left the Committee with grave suspicion that two officers might have been guilty, if not of an assault on a prisoner, at least of using more force than the circumstances warranted, although no complaint

455
was made by the prisoner concerned or anyone else at the time.
The Visiting Committee itself reported that it could not regard the facts as having been proved, but I nevertheless thought it right that the papers be referred to the Director of Public Prosecutions. His conclusion is that the evidence is clearly insufficient to support a prosecution of the two officers.
Many of Mr. Cronkshaw's allegations included criticism of the prison medical service. The Visiting Committee finds that none of these criticisms has been substantiated, and that no blame of any kind attaches to the prison medical service.
Hon. Members will wish to read for themselves the comments in the report on the value to be attached to Mr. Cronkshaw's allegations generally. I cannot but regret the wide publicity that was given to them as soon as they were made and before their authenticity had been investigated. It inflicted harm on the reputation and morale of the prison service which the publication of the report, based on thorough investigation, should certainly dispel.
Mr. Grey: I thank the Home Secretary for making that statement today. Is it not rather a coincidence that a few hours previous to the right hon. Gentleman making his statement I received a message to suggest that Mr. Cronkshaw, who made these allegations, is now remanded in custody in Liverpool Prison on charges of forgery. This is the kind of man who made the charges in the first place.
Mr. Mendelson: He has not yet been proved guilty.
Mr. Grey: I did not say that he had.
May I express satisfaction at the way things have gone, although the form of inquiry differed from the kind I asked for? A word of appreciation is due to the Visiting Committee for the lengths that it went to to try to discover the truth. This is already admitted by Mr. Cronkshaw himself, even though he attended for only one afternoon out of six whole days' sittings.
As for the report, I believe that it proves that the prison officers, except in one case—and I am sorry about that case—are doing a difficult job under very diffi-
456
cult circumstances. They are human beings, and ought to be treated as such. I share with the Home Secretary the view that too much publicity was given to the matter before the facts were known.
Mr. Speaker: We must bear in mind that supplementary questions only are permitted on these occasions.
Miss Bacon: May I apologise for the absence of my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Exchange (Mrs. Braddock), who first raised this question? She wishes me to apologise for the fact that she is not here. She is on her way to Leeds. [Laughter.] It is, of course, an entirely unnecessary journey. We are all very pleased that eight of the allegations have been proved untrue, and we shall all want to read the report to see the seriousness of the one charge which seems to have been shown to have some truth in it.
We may wish to return to the report later, but before that I should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman one fundamental question. Is he aware that when he set up this committee of inquiry there was criticism from some quarters over the fact that we had asked a Visiting Committee to undertake this inquiry, and because the committee is a committee of visiting magistrates who themselves have been responsible in the past for hearing complaints from prisoners? Can he give an assurance that this in no way detracts from the value of the report?
Mr. Brooke: I am obliged to both hon. Members for what they have said. When hon. Members have read the report, I think that they will be impressed by the character of the very thorough investigation which the Visiting Committee has carried out. Having read it, I cannot believe that any criticism could fairly be sustained that this is not an entirely independent and objective report.
Sir C. Osborne: Since prison officers are in a difficult position and cannot defend themselves against allegations which turn out to be unfounded, will my right hon. Friend see to it that it is made clear to them that we in this House are grateful to them for the difficult job they do so well throughout the year?
Mr. Brooke: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. This morning I was addressing

457
a conference of Visiting Committees and Boards of Visitors of Her Majesty's Prisons, and I ventured to say that I thought that prison officers received far too little public recognition for the excellent way in which they do their jobs. I am sure that many of them will read with pleasure what my hon. Friend has said, and take the sense of the House.
Mr. Lipton: Does the right hon. Gentleman recall a recent statement in which he suggested that it would be a good thing if more journalists went to prison from time to time, for the purpose of seeing what conditions are like? Would it not, therefore, be a good thing to make arrangements from time to time for journalists to have an opportunity of visiting local prisons and reporting on the conditions that they see there? I am sure that in many cases this would result in many of the wild allegations made about prison conditions being refuted.
Mr. Brooke: I must choose my words very carefully in referring to this subject. I agree with the hon. Member that it is desirable that responsible journalists should have the opportunity of informing themselves—by short visits—of what really happens in prisons. I know that my prison department will be very glad to make arrangements, provided that they never in any case increase the overcrowding at night.

BRITISH GUIANA (PROROGATION OF LEGISLATURE)
Mr. Bottomley(by Private Notice) asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will make a statement on the situation following the prorogation of the Legislature in British Guiana which took place yesterday.
The Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies (Mr. Nigel Fisher): On the advice of the Premier, which the Governor was constitutionally bound to accept, Sir Ralph Grey yesterday prorogued the British Guiana Legislature.
As hon. Members know, the general strike began as a protest against the introduction of a Labour Relations Bill. This Bill had passed through the Lower House, but had not yet reached the Upper House. It has, therefore, lapsed with the prorogation and I hope very
458
much that the strike will now be brought speedily to an end.
I urge all parties in British Guiana, now that the cause of the strike has been removed, to work constructively towards remedying the economic damage done to their country in recent weeks, and to try again to resolve the political deadlock.
Mr. Bottomley: May I say, while acknowledging the apology from the Secretary of State for his absence and wishing every courtesy to be extended to the President of India, that I think it unfortunate that the Secretary of State himself was not able to be present to answer the Question, bearing in mind that these troubles, political and economic, have been going on for two months. It is the opinion of all of us on this side of the House that the Secretary of State has not given the matter the close personal attention which the problem deserves.
Can the Under-Secretary of State tell us when the next session will be summoned, because in the meantime a very dangerous situation exists? Perhaps the hon. Gentleman can tell us what is to be done immediately to try to solve the present problem and bring the strike to an end.
Mr. Fisher: I apologise to the House for my right hon. Friend's absence. As the right hon. Gentleman said, my right hon. Friend is in attendance upon the President of India—a very long-standing commitment—and I hope that the House will excuse him.
We do not know how long the House of Assembly will remain prorogued, but I understand that six days' notice must be given before it can be recalled. I have sent a telegram to the Governor this morning to ask him for further information on that point.
On the wider question of the settlement of this dispute, I think that the strike will now be settled because the cause of it has been removed by the fact that the Labour Relations Bill, which was so objectionable to the T.U.C., has now lapsed. The difficulty we are in here, as the right hon. Gentleman will appreciate, is the terms and conditions for the resumption of work. Those are a point of real difficulty.

459
I did, as a matter of fact, try to telephone Mr. George Woodcock this morning, because I hoped that he might be able to suggest someone to go out on this essentially industrial matter. But, unfortunately, he is in Geneva. It was, I know, to the regret of the House that Mr. Cousins was taken ill, because he would have been an ideal catalyst acceptable to both sides.
Mr. Bottomley: While acknowledging what has been done, and hoping that a reputable trade unionist can be found who will be willing to go out at once, I still think that further action is required. I hope that the Government will not resolve their responsibilities by saying that this will settle the matter.
Can the Minister tell us whether it was the Premier of British Guiana who asked for Parliament to be prorogued?
Mr. Fisher: Yes, Sir. It was the Premier of British Guiana who asked for prorogation, and the Governor is bound to act on his advice in this matter under the existing Constitution. I do not want to try to wriggle out of Her Majesty's Government's responsibility in this matter, but this is a fully internal self-governing territory where the Governor has no reserve powers except in the matter of foreign affairs and defence. We hope that they will not always look to Britain to save them from their follies, but will try to help themselves and to reconcile the political and racial difficulties which exist there.
Mr. G. M. Thomson: Can the hon. Gentleman say, either from his own visit recently to British Guiana, or as a result of later information, whether the Premier of British Guiana has given assurances that this legislation will not be reintroduced when the Assembly meets again?
Mr. Fisher: I do not think that the Premier has given any such assurance and I understood this morning that the T.U.C. was inclined to press him so to do. I would hope that we could leave this matter now, because the Bill has lapsed. The cause of the strike is removed and I would hope that the local T.U.C. would not press the matter,
460
because I think that it might further sour up relations which now seem to have a chance of improvement.
Mr. Bellenger: Is there not a matter of grave constitutional importance involved here? As I understood the hon. Gentleman, he said that the Parliament had been prorogued and that, therefore, he thought the strike would come to an end. Is prorogation to be used as a method of strike breaking? Surely the Parliament has got to be called together out there as it would be here. What guarantee can the hon. Gentleman give us that Parliamentary democracy will take its course, quite apart from the settlement of the strike, and that the Parliament will be called together at the appropriate time?
Mr. Fisher: This is purely a matter of fact. The very fact of the prorogation means that the Labour Relations Bill, which has not gone right through the whole Legislature—not to the Upper House—automatically lapses and, therefore, the cause of the strike is automatically removed. Of course, the Assembly will be recalled, but, as I explained to the right hon. Gentleman, I do not know when. I have inquired from the Governor what is proposed.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Mr. Iain Macleod): With permission, Mr. Speaker, I should like to make a short business statement.
It may be convenient for the House to know that the business on Monday, 24th June, will be progress with the remaining stages of the Television Bill.
I shall announce the remaining business for next week and the following Monday, tomorrow.
Mr. H. Wilson: Is the right hon. Gentleman in a position to say when he intends to table the Motion relating to the contempt of the House and when time will be found to debate it?
Mr. Macleod: Yes, Sir. It either has been or will be tabled today and will be taken before the Orders of the Day tomorrow.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

  PEERAGE BILL
  Order for Second Reading read.
  3.47 p.m.
  The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Mr. Iain Macleod): I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.
  I have it, Sir, in Command from Her Majesty the Queen to acquaint the House that Her Majesty, having been informed of the contents of the Bill, has been generously pleased to place the interests of the Crown at the disposal of Parliament in connection therewith.
  Few Bills have had such exhaustive examination in advance of Second Reading and I do not propose to spend any time taking the House through the various stages of the Wedgwood Benn-Stansgate case, the by-election, the Report of the Committee of Privileges and the attempts then made by my predecessor the Leader of the House, the First Secretary of State, and then by myself to find an agreed basis for inquiry.
  Finally, the Joint Committee was set up in March, 1962, it reported in December, 1962, there were debates in both Houses at the end of March this year, a statement from myself on 15th May, and the Bill, as hon. Members will see, was printed on 30th May. To put it mildly, I do not think that anybody can claim that there has been undue delay in dealing with this important matter.
  As far as implementation is concerned—and I want to say one special word about Clause 7 in a moment—the Bill will come into force on the dissolution of the present Parliament. That fulfils the pledge which I have given on a number of occasions, both in these statements and during business questions on Thursday, that we hope that the Bill will become law this Session, but, that in any event, we would, if we were supported by Parliament, see that it was in operation before the next General Election, whenever that might be.
  I have spoken so often on this matter that I am sure the House will agree it is reasonable for me to speak briefly today, particularly as I have no new announcement to make, so I turn to the Bill.
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  The House will remember that the Committee of Privileges, in its Report in March, 1961, underwrote the view of the Select Committee which sat in 1895 and which, in turn, upheld the view of Mr. Speaker Onslow, in 1760, in some famous words, which were:
  "The attendance in both Houses of Parliament is considered a service and the two services incompatible with each other."
  If the House agrees to the Bill, Clauses 1 to 3 will, in fact, alter that position. If these Clauses become law—as I certainly hope that they will—anybody who has succeeded to a peerage, or who, in the future, does succeed to a peerage, will have the opportunity to disclaim the peerage for his lifetime and so renounce for himself—but not, of course, for his successors—the rights and privileges of a peerage and, at the same time, remove his disqualification to sit in this House and to vote in parliamentary elections.
  There is one point of nomenclature which I should mention. We have always previously used the term "surrender". The House will see that now we use the word "disclaim". The Explanatory Memorandum to the Bill says that this is for technical reasons. The thought behind it is that the word "surrender" is a technical term in real property law, and it means the merger of a lesser estate in a greater estate, and so its extinguishment. But that is not what the Commitee recommended, although some people might hold the view that it should have done.
  In fact, the Committee did not do so and, therefore, the word "disclaim" is, I think, a more accurate reflection of what the Committee said, because it does not connote the extinction of the thing disclaimed. For example, a legatee may well disclaim a bequest which he does not want.
  Sir Harmar Nicholls: Does that mean that if the word "surrender" were put in the place of the word "disclaim" it would mean that they would have to hand on any entailed estate to anybody who would normally succeed them?
  Mr. Macleod: I do not think that it would. I will ask my right hon. and learned Friend the Attorney-General to deal with that from the purely legal point

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  of view. But I am sure that the answer is, "no". The Bill itself would still prevail, but for the reasons I have given I think that "disclaim" is a more accurate expression of the sense of the Committee.
  Three separate periods of time are involved. For a future succession it is twelve months. For a peer who has succeeded before the passing of the Bill it is six months. He has had, of course, many months, in addition, to reflect on the position likely to appear. There is an even shorter period of one month—because, of course, of the necessity of not disfranchising the electorate in a particular constituency—in the case of a sitting Member of the House of Commons or a candidate in an election.
  There are two small complications which I ought to mention, and which follow from two of the departures that my statement of 15th May—with acceptance from the other side of the House—indicated that it might be right to make from the recommendations of the Joint Select Committee. The Committee recommended that a candidate in an election to Parliament, by accepting nomination, should be deemed to have entered into an undertaking to surrender any peerage he might inherit before the declaration of the poll.
  This is, of course, an extremely unlikely contingency. But it seems right to make some provision for it, particularly as it is not always possible to be certain straight away, in the case of a complicated succession, whether anyone has or has not succeeded. We therefore propose—I hope that the House will think it reasonable—that the election should be allowed to proceed. If the candidate does not top the poll, the question does not arise. If he does, he should have one month. That is the maximum period. If he is determined to continue with his membership of this House, should he be successful in the poll, there is nothing whatever to stop him from disclaiming straight away to remove an uncertainty, if there is one.
  The second departure from, or actually in this case it is an addition to, the Joint Select Committee's recommendations, is to meet a point made by many hon. Members, I think with considerable force, during our last debate, that a
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  Member of Parliament should be allowed some latitude during the period of one month if he is ill, or there is a reason for which he cannot reasonably exercise his choice. We have tried to meet that point in Clause 2 (4) and you, Mr. Speaker, have agreed that under this subsection you would be ready to act and to certify that a Member is under such infirmity as would disable him from acting. We have also covered the case of a Member of Parliament who is abroad, perhaps on a parliamentary delegation, by providing that the time should not run, particularly during a Recess.
  The third point of departure from the Joint Select Committee's recommendations is one to which I myself drew attention and I am sure that what we propose is the right thing to do. We do not propose to require a peer who has disclaimed to exhibit to the returning officer a certificate of disclaimer, so there is nothing about that in the Bill. I understand the reasons for the Joint Select Committee's recommendation, but this would put an entirely new function upon the returning officer and it would mean that he would have to screen candidates in this respect. That is a duty he does not have on any other grounds for disqualification of membership of this House. If the returning officer has this responsibility, in logic we should have to add to the number.
  I do not know what description of themselves hon. Members give when they hand in their nomination forms. In the five or six elections in which I have taken part I have described myself as a journalist. So far as I know, it is no part of the duty of a returning officer to check whether I am or not—although, in fact, I am a card carrying, although an associate member, of one of the main organisations concerned.
  Equally, if a woman candidate for this House describes herself as a spinster, it is not part of the duty of a returning officer to ascertain whether that is a correct description. I think that the House will agree, therefore, that this is not perhaps a duty which we ought to put on the shoulders of returning officers, and that is why there is nothing about it in the Bill.
  I propose to discuss the rest of the Bill very swiftly. Clauses 4 to 6 incor-

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  porate the recommendations of the Joint Select Committee on Scottish peers, Irish peers and peeresses—I will say a separate word about that in a moment. The position so far as Clause 4 is concerned is that full rights of admission to the House of Lords are given to all peers and peeresses of Scotland and the system of representative peers is brought to an end. Peeresses in their own right are to be in the same position as hereditary peers for Parliamentary purposes and the existing restriction on peers and peeresses of Ireland in respect of membership of this House and the constituencies for which they could stand and in relation to their voting are removed.
  I pointed out in an earlier debate that the effect of this would be to add 34, as a maximum, members—some of whom might not wish to play their full part in the affairs of another place—to the present maximum complement of 930. But that is less any peers who may disclaim.
  I have not dealt with Committee points, although some such points will probably be raised in the debate today. I have also not dealt with the argument which, I understand from the previous debates, the Opposition may wish to put forward; that is, that a peerage should be extinguished rather than simply disclaimed for life, as is the proposal of the Joint Select Committee and as is proposed in the Bill. I have not discussed the position of the Irish peerage, although I am sure—certainly in another place and probably in this—that this question will be raised. The Government's view is that the recommendation of the Joint Select Committee in paragraphs 10 and 11 is correct in relation to this matter; although we will, of course, listen to any comments that are made.
  Equally, I have not dealt with the one or two special cases, one of which has been referred to as the case of the noble Lord, Lord Long ford, who, for various reasons, could not obtain relief under the Bill as it stands. This is a Committee point to which, in due course—if the matter is raised—we would be glad to listen. The Government's view coincides with that of the Joint Select Committee and is, therefore, embodied in the Bill as it stands.
  Mr. Dingle Foot: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the Government still have an open mind on this point? Will they give sympathetic consideration to an Amendment, if one is proposed, in Committee?
  Mr. Macleod: I would not like to go as far as that. We will listen to any comments that are made, but the connotation of "sympathetic consideration" is usually, from this Box, that one is inclined towards it. The view of the Government is that the view of the Joint Select Committee—and, therefore, of the Bill—is right; but we will listen to any arguments that are put forward.
  The Bill contains no reference to courtesy titles although the Joint Select Committee recommended that they should be abolished for the relatives of peers who disclaim as well as for the peer himself and his wife. There is an important distinction here. The peer has a title and his wife has one in her own right and, therefore, the legislation we propose is necessary for that reason. But courtesy titles are, as the name implies, not really titles at all and, as they do not exist in law, we can hardly pass laws about them. It is extremely improbable, in any case, that any situation in this sphere will arise.
  The sort of possibility would be that if the son of a peer who had himself disclaimed decided to stand for the House of Commons, and in respect of his father's disclaimer and his own candidature for this place, persisted in using a courtesy title. I would not have thought that this is particularly likely, although it could happen and I suppose that the House, if it wished, could deal with this question by the way it makes reference in debate to those who may hold courtesy titles.
  Viscount Lambton: Will my right hon. Friend explain what the position will be under the Bill for such hon. Members as myself and my hon. Friend the Member for Hertford (Lord Balniel)? Do we, in the sad event of succeeding to the peerage, retain our courtesy titles if we do not accept the peerage, and do our families, or do we, become commoners and renounce our courtesy titles? What is the position?
  Mr. Macleod: As I understand it, the position is that in the unfortunate event

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  of my noble Friend succeeding through a death to a peerage to which he is the heir, he would become a peer. In this connection, I will shortly make a special reference on a fairly narrow point about this matter. He would then be a peer and, in the next Parliament, he would have one month in which to disclaim that title. If he did disclaim, it would be in accordance with the effects of the disclaimer under Clause 3, which states:
  "The disclaimer of a peerage…shall operate…
  (a) to divest that person (and, if he is married, his wife) of all right or interest to or in the peerage, and all titles, rights, offices, privileges and precedence attaching thereto…"
  Therefore, the answer to my noble Friend's question, subject to a point which I shall make in a moment, is that in the next Parliament—and if he were an hon. Member of the House of Commons then, and then succeeded—he would have a month in which to disclaim. If he did so disclaim, then from the time of that disclaimer he would have no right, for his lifetime, to the title and would, therefore, use his ordinary name without the courtesy title.
  Viscount Lambton: Would I then become a peer, though remaining in the House of Commons?
  Mr. Macleod: No. For his lifetime my noble Friend would become a commoner. That is the position.
  I said to my noble Friend that there was one particular matter to which I thought I should draw the attention of hon. Members. This concerns Clause 7.
  Mr. R. T. Paget: Does a courtesy title, either now or in the future, have any legal existence at all? [Hon. Members: "No."] In fact, cannot people call themselves anything they like?
  Mr. Macleod: That is the position. Indeed, I said that. I said that courtesy titles are, as the name implies, not really titles at all. The hon. and learned Member is quite right. This is a matter of social convention. What a man calls himself is not our concern.
  Mr. Charles Pannell: We should try to get this matter clear, because the right hon. Gentleman tended to make the point that courtesy titles were probably not very important. Is
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  it the case that, from the point of view of the rules of this House, a person concerned in this way would be a commoner?
  Mr. Macleod: That is exactly right. In law and otherwise they would be commoners, but what one cannot do in a Bill is to provide, shall we say, what name is written opposite a person's place if that person is attending a reception or something of that sort. They are social matters with which we are not concerned.
  Viscount Lambton: I think that it would be more sensible, from my point of view, to know what the position is. Do I have to renounce all titles? I want to get the legal position clear. I am technically a commoner now. Is there anything to stop me continuing to call myself "Lord Lambton" and remaining a commoner in the House of Commons, through never having gone to the House of Lords?
  Mr. Macleod: The hon. and learned Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget) put the matter correctly. In law, my noble Friend would have no right to do so. If the time comes when my noble Friend becomes my hon. Friend we will go on, I hope, on precisely the same footing. The point is that, in law, he would, in those circumstances, be entirely a commoner and would be so referred to in all legal documents, but what he called himself would be a matter entirely for him.
  That is why there is nothing in the Bill referring to that point. Other people, of course, could call my noble Friend what they like, but that is a tempting field into which I shall not enter. I think that what I have said to the House is accurate. My right hon. and learned Friend the Attorney-General tells me that it is, and perhaps he will specifically deal with this point when he winds up the debate.
  There is one point that I should bring to the notice of the House and of those hon. Members who, like my noble Friend, may succeed to a peerage. Subsection (2) of Clause 7 says:
  "This Act shall come into force on the dissolution of the present Parliament."
  That is in accordance with everything I have said, and I think it right—I have

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  said so over and over again—but there is the point that a Member of this House might, in the unhappy event of a death, succeed to a peerage before the dissolution of this Parliament. In that case, unless the event took place within a few weeks of that date, he could not take advantage of this Measure, and could not return for the same seat—not, at any rate, without an interval.
  This point arose in the drafting of the Bill, and I looked at it carefully. I do not suggest that we should make any amendment to the Bill, but it is right that hon. Members should have this point in mind. I had thought of seeing whether we could draft a formula in relation to the matter, but as the ends of the commitment would be unknown—that is to say, the date of the election and the date, if any, of a death—I have so far found that impossible.
  My recommendation, therefore, would be that we should keep subsection (2) as it is, subject, of course, to the usual examination by a Committee of this House and in another place. There are eight or 10 hon. Members who, unhappily, could conceivably be affected by this provision, and I thought it right to draw attention to it.
  Mr. C. Pannell: I think that we are on very dangerous ground now. Some of us would equally claim that the one person disadvantaged up to now is Mr. Wedgwood Benn himself. Certainly, if there is any alteration now—and I say this without offence to leaders of the party opposite—another "Hailsham amendment" would be looked on as political strategy.
  Mr. Macleod: With respect, the hon. Gentleman has got the point entirely wrong. I was concerned only with the question of the one month, and only with present Members of the House of Commons. I make it clear that I do not suggest an alteration, but I think it only fair to those eight or 10 hon. Members, and to the House as a whole, to draw attention to the conceivable effect of this provision upon them.
  I have been through the Bill; it is simple but, at the same time, of considerable importance. I think that at all stages—and there has been very close consultation, indeed—there has been a
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  surprising and growing measure of agreement. We may therefore reasonably hope that the Bill will find its way to the Statute Book at an early date, and I personally commend it to the House.
  Sir John Langford-Holt: Before my right hon. Friend sits down, will he tell me—because it will affect my decision whether or not to try to make a speech—whether it is intended to take the Committee stage of the Bill on the Floor of the House?
  Mr. Macleod: Yes, certainly. The Committee stage will be taken by a Committee of the whole House.
  Viscount Lambton: Perhaps I may again try to clear up this matter, which is very vague to me. If I became a peer for a month, would my son and my other children have, or could they have, courtesy titles remaining to them after I had renounced my peerage?
  Mr. Macleod: I am certain that the long and detailed answers I have given on this have been correct, but if I may I would ask my right hon. and learned Friend the Attorney-General to draw the threads together at the end of the debate and to give particular attention to what my noble Friend has said.
  4.15 p.m.
  Mr. Gordon Walker: As one who spent long days on the Joint Select Committee, I welcome the Bill. That Committee had strictly limited terms of reference and, broadly speaking, its conclusions within those terms of reference have gone into the Bill, although in it there are some things with which I do not agree.
  The wider issues were, by agreement of the House, excluded, and I merely state that I have never been persuaded of the value of a second Chamber. I certainly do not believe in an hereditary right to become a legislator although, equally, I do not believe in a hereditary bar to the right to become a legislator or to vote. But I must admit that many of the disadvantages of the second Chamber disappear if it is a chamber without power. One can only tolerate it on the assumption that it does not abuse what powers it has, and never stands in the way of this elected Chamber.

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  We did not get all that we wanted in the Joint Select Committee, but the Bill does give us a chance to put right one or two grave wrongs, and I will certainly not forgo the right to correct them just because we are not getting all we wanted.
  The major wrong we are righting is that done not only to Mr. Wedgwood Benn—who was, after all, fairly elected to this House but not allowed to take his seat in it—but the more important wrong done to those who voted for him, who were themselves disfranchised. That is the great wrong that we are putting right. As my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, West (Mr. C. Pannell) said on a previous occasion, that was putting the hereditary principle before the elective principle. We cannot tolerate that, and that is why there is broad agreement on the principles of this Bill.
  A reference to the major principles that guided the Joint Select Committee will probably make it easier to judge the merits of particular proposals in the Bill, or not in it. The major argument in the Joint Select Committee was between two completely conflicting views. One view was that if a peer divested himself of his title, or disclaimed it—whatever the term may be—he was making a sacrifice of his own rights and positions and the rights and position of his children to come.
  The opposite view, held by my hon. Friends and myself, was that to be able to disclaim a title, far from taking away a right, conferred a very great right on the peer concerned; the very great right to be a commoner, and to exercise the great privileges and status of a commoner, both to vote in the country—because a peer cannot now so vote—and to sit in this honourable Chamber. We felt that a very great right was being conferred on him.
  It is extremely important that we should approach the whole matter from the point of view that we are conferring a great right upon people who have been deprived of it, and not upon the basis that we are taking away rights from them, or enabling them to take those rights from themselves or their children. That was the basic issue that at first divided the Joint Select Committee. Broadly speaking, we went on the second
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  principle, namely, that we were conferring a great right on peers by enabling them to assume the status and the rights of a commoner.
  We went on to other basic principles which I think I should state in order to make it easier to judge the various issues in the Bill, or not in it. One is that we should do our utmost to avoid any danger of anyone having it both ways, of people having options about which House they sit in because they happen to be hereditary peers. We wanted to avoid any in-and-out possibility as much as possible.
  The second principle was that we should give the right to become a commoner only to peers who had been involuntarily deprived of it. In other words, it should not extend to Members of the House of Lords who had gone there at full age by their own decision, not to life peers, peers of the first creation, Law Lords and people of that kind. Only those who have not gone there by pure accident but by their own decision at full age should be deprived of this right.
  The Committee carried out these principles and, in effect, they are all embodied in the Bill. We cannot be wholly logical in this matter. In spite of our dislike of the hereditary principle, we find ourselves in agreement with the view that 34 peers should be added to their Lordships' House. It would create far more anomalies in applying this right to give up a peerage if we had gone on with the elective system of Scottish peers. It would have involved continuing inequality between the sexes in the other House. On the Joint Select Committee it seemed to all of us that when balancing one thing with another this would be common sense although not strictly logical.
  On the point made by the noble Lord the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Viscount Lambton), we wanted to make perfectly clear that while anyone might avail himself of the right to become a commoner there will still be people, like himself, sitting in this House with a title and there might be Irish peers doing so. We felt that we could not clear up the whole of this enormous problem and that it would be right to concentrate on the major issue. The basic position is that any peer who avails himself of the right to become a

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  commoner should be assimilated as closely as possible to the status of a commoner. It is for that reason that he gives up his title for life and loses the hereditary right to go to another place. The commoner would not have that right.
  It seemed that we ought to go further in one particular. This is a matter to which we attach very great importance. It is that any peer who avails himself of this very great right to become a commoner should drown and extinguish his title, not just suspend it for his lifetime. The argument for this is simple. If he is becoming a commoner he should be a commoner. A commoner does not carry in his loins the capacity to send his eldest son to the House of Lords.
  Mr. Michael Foot: Or to the Commons.
  Mr. Gordon Walker: Or to the Commons.
  A peer who comes to the House of Commons should be a commoner and be deprived of this right because, if he is to become a commoner, he should become a commoner and should have the full rights of a commoner, but not have the privileges which do not inhere in a commoner. That is why, not merely because we are against the hereditary principle but because we feel so strongly about this, we must make a peer who becomes a commoner, a commoner.
  That is the logic of the whole thing and why, quite apart from our general view of principle here, talking merely within the logic of what the Committee tried and the Bill tries to do, it seems that this is the conclusion which ought to be drawn. It is sometimes said that we would then be asking a peer to forgo rights which inhere in children, but this never carried weight with me. No one said in the past that someone who became a hereditary peer was depriving his children and his children's children of the right to become a commoner. That was a far greater deprivation, a greater taking-away, of rights from successors than this would be in giving them the right for ever to be commoners. This is something to which we attach very great importance and we shall seek to amend the Bill on this issue.
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  We are not—at least I am not—completely satisfied about the courtesy titles, although I do not think that this is of great importance. Equally, a commoner cannot confer courtesy titles, whatever their status. If a peer becomes a commoner he should not have rights which are not those of a commoner.
  Viscount Lambton: Since we are very much in the dark about what all this means, will the right hon. Member say whether when my noble Friend the Member for Hertford (Lord Balniel), my noble Friend the Member for Edinburgh, North (The Earl of Dalkeith) or I succeed on the decease of our fathers we could become peers?
  Mr. Gordon Walker: Yes, the noble Lord and his noble Friends would become peers, but, if they use the provisions of the Bill they do not apply for a Writ of Summons, as I think it is called. They therefore, at that point, divest themselves of the right to become a peer.
  Viscount Lambton: The next point is that, although technically they become peers, technically do their children have the right to the privileges of sons and daughters of peers?
  Mr. Gordon Walker: No, only the elder son has the right to succeed to the Lords on the death of his father.
  Viscount Lambton: That is not in the Bill.
  Mr. Gordon Walker: That, I think, is in the Bill, but I am not conducting the debate entirely to satisfy the hon. Member. I advise him to read the Bill with a little more care. If he reads the Bill and the Report of the Committee with his usual intelligence and application, I think that he will find that these things are either clearly in the Bill or clearly implied in the Bill. At any rate, I think that his own private matters would be better dealt with in Committee.
  Viscount Lambton: It is a public matter.
  Mr. Gordon Walker: They are matters of public importance, but they are answered in the Bill. Whether or not that is so can be easily ascertained in Committee when we deal with the Clauses.

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  Although courtesy titles are not known to the law, certainly the law is capable of dealing with them. If we wish we can make a Statute. Either by the way suggested by the Leader of the House when he referred to our speeches here, or by the way in which the Bill is drafted or redrafted in Committee, we should make quite clear that in the view of the House or of Parliament it would be wrong for courtesy titles to be used when a peer had availed himself of rights under the Bill.
  Mr. A. Bourne-Arton: I may be wrong, but I thought that these titles were real titles held by the father who holds the peerage and the courtesy consists in the son or grandson, being by convention and courtesy allowed to use one of his father's titles. Surely if he succeeds he suceeds to the earldom and barony, all the lot?
  Mr. Gordon Walker: I am getting into a social level which is a little above me. I do not understand all these things. I understand that sons and daughters could be called "Honourable" and that such titles were included in the general category of courtesy titles. It was primarily to those that I was referring. I understand that if the eldest son of a peer sits in this House his is a courtesy title, too.
  Lord Balniel rose—
  Mr. Gordon Walker: I am not giving way.
  Mr. Speaker: Order, I think that we would make much better progress if there were fewer interventions.
  Mr. Gordon Walker: I am very flattered to be already treated as if I were speaking for the Government, but that is not the case. It is still true that the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster is primarily responsible for interpreting all the idiosyncrasies and corners of the Bill.
  Although we did our best to think of every conceivable circumstance and situation in Committee, I do not think that we considered the case of a person who had become a life peer because—or might claim that he had become a life peer because—he was to succeed later to an hereditary peerage. I never thought of it and it was never raised
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  in my hearing. I have some sympathy with the point, although I do not think that it is a major point, and certainly not one on which there will be any sort of party division.
  I come to the question of the sitting peers having a six months' right to avail themselves of the advantages of the Bill. First, this seems to me to be a just provision; if we are giving this right to peers who succeed in the future, we should not refuse to give it to peers who have succeeded under the previous law and who might have availed themselves of this provision if it had then been operative. It should be a once-for-all right which runs for only six months from the coming into operation of the Bill. It would be wrong if it were a continuing right.
  It seems to me to be just to give this right, but it was carried in the Committee by only one vote, and, had it not been for the solid support of the Labour Members there, this just provision would not have been in the Report or the Bill. This shows that we are not concerned simply with what might be thought to be the Labour interest in connection with the Wedgwood Benn aspect. We are also concerned with the justice of the proposition, because this might be called the Hailsham amendment if the other might be called the Wedgwood Benn amendment, although we should not personalise and particularise.
  Secondly, I do not agree with the proposal that the Bill should come into operation on the dissolution of Parliament. This does not seem to me to carry out the promise which the right hon. Gentleman gave, as reported in column 1549 of the Official Report of 28th March, when he said:
  "But if such legislation were desirable, we would bring it forward in this Parliament so that it might be in operation for the coming General Election."—[Official Report, 28th March, 1963; Vol. 674, c. 1549.]
  The Bill carries out only the words of the promise and not the spirit. If we wait until the dissolution of Parliament it is very difficult for anyone in the short period between the dissolution and the election to avail himself of this right. It is, of course, possible that someone has a seat all lined up—that someone has had a seat kept vacant for him. But

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  it is difficult. There may be quite a number of people involved. I am not thinking only of Mr. Wedgwood Benn or Lord Hailsham. There may be many others who want to avail themselves of this right.
  There is also the point that one of the rights which would be conferred on peers is not only the right to sit in the House of Commons, but the right to vote as electors. There may be sitting peers who simply want to divest themselves of their peerage in order to vote. The earlier we give them this right the more chance they have of getting on the electoral register. In general justice, we should give this right as early as possible. I do not see why Clause 7 cannot be amended simply to say, "This Bill will come into operation on the Royal Assent being given." This gives the maximum time and carries out the intent and spirit of the right hon. Gentleman's promise as we understood it.
  I cannot deal with this matter without considering the problems of the leadership of parties, because the date at which the Bill, when it is an Act, comes into operation might affect these matters. We do not want to interfere in the slightest way with the difficulties or problems of the Conservative Party, but it seems to me in justice that it would be to the general public advantage that as wide a choice as possible were available to right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite for the leadership of their party. If this Bill came into operation on the Royal Assent being given, it would widen the field in an effective way. It makes absolutely no difference to us who becomes leader of the Conservative Party. We are prepared to take them all on, and the sooner the better.
  Mr. R. Gresham Cooke: Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that there is an additional point in his argument? It appears that there are eight or 10 Members of the House who might succeed to a peerage by reason of death at any time in the next two or three months. They would be disfranchised until the dissolution of Parliament.
  Mr. Gordon Walker: I quite agree. Mr. Wedgwood Benn would be in some difficulty about fighting an election. If one intends to fight a seat one needs time in which to fight it. If the right
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  is given only on dissolution, this makes things very difficult.
  I agree with the hon. Member. It seems to me that whichever way we look at it—from the point of view of the rights of individuals or of the rights of the Conservative Party to have a free choice of possible leaders—there is a good case for amending the Bill to make it come into operation on the Royal Assent being given.
  Sir Harmar Nicholls: When dealing with the question of leadership we should be fair to both sides of the House. Ought we not to make it possible for Lord Morrison of Lambeth to come back? He might well be needed.
  Mr. Gordon Walker: Of course, this would apply all round, but Lord Morrison of Lambeth is a life peer. There are some hereditary Labour peers who might be interested. I think that the point about a life peer is settled on a different principle. Of course, Lord Morrison might be made an hereditary peer in the meantime, and then it would be possible for him to do this. I am afraid that at the moment we cannot get Lord Morrison under the cover of the Bill, and I think that the case of Lord Hailsham is a touch more actual.
  There are, therefore, two important Amendments which we want to propose. One concerns the drowning or extinction, or whatever is the technical term, of the the title, rather than its suspension for life. The second is to make the Bill come into operation on the Royal Assent and not on the dissolution of the House. There are one or two other matters, and possibly my hon. Friends may wish to raise one or two smaller points.
  I assure the right hon. Gentleman that we do not want to delay the Bill. We want it to come into operation as soon as possible. If the right hon. Gentleman is asking, as he is, that the Bill should be facilitated and should come into operation as quickly as possible, why is he delaying its operation to the dissolution? The only argument for speed is that it should come into operation quickly. We could get the Bill to the Royal Assent in three weeks, with a little co-operation.
  I assure the right hon. Gentleman that as long as we have the right to argue the points in which we greatly believe, par-

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  ticularly that about extinguishing the title, it is our firm intention—and I give a firm undertaking—to facilitate the passage of the Bill. We do not want to hold it up. We want it on the Statute Book, but we want it there so that it may come into operation.
  The right hon. Gentleman wants the Bill speedily on the Statute Book so that it shall not come into operation until some time in the future. My position is rather more logical than his and, whatever he says about other Amendments which we put forward, I hope that he will give careful consideration to the Amendment about the timing of the Bill in order to provide that it will come into operation on the Royal Assent. We welcome the Bill and we shall facilitate its passage.
  4.39 p.m.
  Sir Harmar Nicholls: I have only one point to make and at first sight it seems to be in line with a point made by the right hon. Member for Smethwick (Mr. Gordon Walker), although I do not think that it is. I want my right hon. Friend to bear in mind what I think would be a considerable objection to the words of the Explanatory Memorandum, which reads:
  "The peer who disclaims is divested of the peerage itself and all legal incidents belonging to if, including disqualification for membership of the House of Commons, but the succession to the peerage on his death is not affected…Disclaimer of a peerage does not affect rights of property."
  I am strongly in support of people being allowed to stand for the House of Commons if they wish to do so, and I think that the impediment of being an hereditary peer should be removed if that is a man's wish. But I do not go with the right hon. Gentleman's suggestion that the hereditary system has no value at all. As long as we have the system of the monarchy, I think that the hereditary system is very important, even outside the realms of the monarchy itself. As long as we believe in the monarchical system, we cannot have that standing in isolation as the only hereditary system that exists in the country. I therefore believe that to preserve that we must preserve the hereditary system in a more general way.
  I am not with the right hon. Gentleman in suggesting the permanent ending
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  of the hereditary principle but I cannot bring myself to believe that the Bill as it now stands will do anything more than create many more problems and anachronisms unless we go a little further than the Bill now suggests, I believe that the Bill should do this. If anyone entitled to succeed as a peer does not wish to do so in order to have all the benefits of a commoner as explained by the right hon. Gentleman, I believe that he should be allowed to divest himself of it, under similar terms as set out in the Bill, but I believe that he himself alone should go; and, in addition, he should give up all the rights to any entailed property that go with it and I believe that, just like the monarchy, whoever is next in line of succession to the peerage should take over at once. If the next in line is a son, he should take over at once, including property. If a brother, the brother should take over the peerage; he should take over the property that goes with it and the brother's successors should keep the line moving.
  If it is done in any other way, we get very near to the point that the right hon. Gentleman made when he said that he thought that the peerage ought to be "drowned". He said that a person ought not merely to disclaim it for the period of one generation, but that it ought to be "drowned"; it ought to go for ever. I think that that would be bad. It would weaken the hereditary system. I believe that the anachronism by which a man ceases to become a peer, but still enjoys all the legal rights that go with the property and the things which are part of the peerage, even under law, creates problems which are unnecessary. If he does not wish to continue with the peerage, if his son is next in line of succession, his son should take on the peerage and should be legally entitled to all the entail that goes with it. If his brother is next in line, he should take it on. If his cousin is next in line, he should take it on.
  This would mean that the person would be contracting out of something he did not want to have. He would not be retaining any of the advantages that go with that from which he was contracting out in the sense of possession of the property and control of anything that goes

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  with it. It would mean that he was going half way to killing the hereditary system, such as is the case now.
  Mr. C. Pannell: I do not think that the hon. Gentleman understands the logic of his remarks. I lived with this problem for a long time. What the hon. Gentleman is advocating is that if a man renounces the title for his lifetime he completely disfranchises his branch of the family. That is a form of drowning.
  Sir Harmar Nicholls: I do not think that the hon. Gentleman has followed my point. If a man divests himself of the right to become a peer under my suggestion, he drowns his own right only.
  Mr. C. Pannell: And that of his son.
  Sir Harmar Nicholls: No. The hon. Gentleman has not followed me. If a man divests himself of the right to become a peer, the peerage automatically goes to his son at that minute. The title is then in being and the entailed estate that goes with it goes to the son.
  The Attorney-General (Sir John Hobson): I think that the hon. Member for Leeds, West (Mr. C. Pannell) is right in certain circumstances, because if at the time of disclaimer the peer is unmarried and has a brother who succeeds the disclaimed peer may subsequently, have a son who would not be able to succeed because the peerage would have gone to the brother and gone on a different line.
  Sir Harmar Nicholls: I was coming to that point. That is the one risk in my suggestion, that a man may be divesting an unborn son of the right to succeed. I claim as against that risk that the anachronism of leaving it as it is would be much more damaging to the nation, if one believes in the hereditary system, than divesting an unborn son of the right to succeed.
  I believe that we want to preserve the hereditary principle, because I believe that if it is taken away we are likely to weaken the system of the monarchy. I do not believe that the peerage ought to be in a different position from that of the monarchy itself. If a king abdicates, the Crown automatically goes to the next in line of succession and the line flowing from that successor is the one which prevails. That is the position of the
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  monarchy. It ought to be the position with the peerage. If they go together, they are more likely to be able to strengthen each other.
  Mr. Donald Wade: Is not the hon. Gentleman, in effect, suggesting the creation of a new form of privilege? The heir to a peerage, or at the moment when the Bill comes into force an existing peer other than life peer or a peer of first creation, would be able to say to his brother or his son, "I will stand for the House of Commons, and you can take my place in the other place." Surely that would be rather unreasonable and would, in fact, be a new kind of privilege.
  4.45 p.m.
  Mr. Dingle Foot: The speech to which we have just listened from the hon. Member for Peterborough (Sir Harmer Nicholls) reminded me rather of a remark which was made by Adam Oak-apple in the third act of "Ruddigore", that if a man cannot disinherit his own unborn son whose unborn son can he disinherit?
  The hon. Gentleman's speech illustrated the tremendous gulf there is on these matters between the two sides of the House. The hon. Gentleman argued that, because we have a hereditary monarchy, we must therefore preserve a hereditary peerage. Very few Members on this side of the House would propose to get rid of the hereditary monarchy, but all of us would get rid of the hereditary principle if we could, and I hope that in due course we shall.
  The Bill is a much more modest affair. I, for one, support the Bill simply as a humanitarian measure, in much the same way that I would support a Bill to prohibit the hunting of carted stags. This is a measure for the assistance and relief of those who, through no fault of their own, are condemned to a death worse than fate. From time to time, like many hon. Members, I wander along the corridor to the other place and I see there those of my friends whom I knew in this House sitting with an air of supreme hopelessness on their red benches.
  On these occasions I always feel rather like Odysseus, when he paid a brief visit to Hades. The House will remember how he greeted the dead Achilles as a

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  king among the shades and the terms of Achilles' reply. I quote from Pope's translation of the Odyssey:
  "Talk not of ruling in this dolorous gloom,
  Nor think vain words, he cried, can case my doom,
  Rather I'd choose laboriously to bear,
  A weight of woes, and breathe the vital air,
  A slave to some poor hind that toils for bread,
  Than reign the sceptred monarch of the dead."
  This is a Measure of resurrection. Speaking for myself, I hope that before very long we shall see my old friend Quintin Hogg losing his temper on the benches opposite. He will, I imagine, choose to return from hell, and Mr. Anthony Wedgwood Benn from the purgatory in which he has been living for the last two or three years. I express the hope that another old friend of mine, Frank Pakenham, will also be able to make his exit from among the shades.
  This is only a stop-gap measure. It does not deal with what I would call the real problem of the House of Lords. The Tory Party is always trying in one way or another to patch up the other place. A year or two ago we had the Measure for the admission of women to the House of Lords and for the creation of life peerages. All this really defies the scriptural adjuration against pouring new wine into old bottles. It avoids the two fundamental questions which, sooner or later, all political parties in this country have to consider.
  The two questions are these. First, do we need a second Chamber? Secondly, if so, what sort of second Chamber should it be? The answer to the first question is, I believe emphatically, "Yes". In my view, the case for having an effective second Chamber is stronger than it has ever been. That is why I would support the abolition of the present House of Lords. I think that it was just 320 years ago that the Long Parliament, in its wisdom, passed this Resolution:
  "That the House of Lords is a useless and dangerous institution and ought to be abolished."
  I would certainly vote for that Resolution if it were proposed again today. I think that the House of Lords is useless and dangerous for this reason: it deprives us of a really useful second
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  Chamber. We cannot have a really useful or effective second Chamber if it is based on the hereditary system.
  Here may I say, speaking only for myself, I have found that whenever it has been proposed to reform the House of Lords or to substitute something else in its place, the objection is always taken that we must not give too much prestige or authority to the other place, because then it might possibly rival or come into conflict with the House of Commons. That is always advanced as if it were a conclusive argument. It does not seem so to me.
  I have now sat in this House, with broken periods, for nearly twenty years, and I take as much pride as any other hon. Member in being here. But do not let us assume that the House of Commons is perfect. It seems to me that the House of Commons as it exists today has three weaknesses. First, the supremacy of our Chamber rests upon the fact that we represent the people, but we do not always represent the majority of the people. It has happened on several occasions that a Government with a majority of seats, sometimes a substantial majority, has represented only a minority of the electors. There is no guarantee that that will not happen again.
  It is something which is very liable to happen as long as we have the system of single-member constituencies. I do not think that that system is likely to be changed, at any rate in my lifetime. I have always been a believer in proportional representation, but I think that it is more or less a lost cause. But if I am right, there is always the danger, under our present system, of a Government which represents only a minority of the people carrying through a particular policy which is against the wishes, which may have been the wishes expressed at a General Election, of the majority of the electors.
  Secondly, there is a further difficulty with which we in this House have to contend. That is, as I have tried once or twice to point out before, that we are here the slaves of the timetable. We try to reform our procedure from time to time, but we are always up against the difficulty that we have not enough time for all the matters that we ought to debate. It is perfectly true that matters

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  of great urgency and public importance are generally discussed.
  When a Minister confesses a falsehood, or is detected in suppressing the truth, there is almost always an immediate debate. But there are a great many subjects of considerable importance which go for a very long period undiscussed in this House. We have had, for example, reports of Royal Commissions and Departmental Committees dealing with matters of great public importance and sometimes one, two or three years elapse before they become the subject for debate. This is a situation which grows constantly worse.
  Every back bencher in this House—and, I would think, every Minister,too—must be conscious of the increasing congestion on the Order Paper, especially at Question Time. We may have a matter which ought urgently to be raised in the House, but unless it is so urgent that we can bring it within the rules governing a Private Notice Question, it cannot be raised—it may be for a matter of weeks—until the turn of a particular Minister comes round. That is a situation from which we in this House have thought of no way of escape. That is another reason why I believe that we need a second Chamber with greater leisure than we have, and a second Chamber which is not in the same way the slave of its own time table.
  Thirdly, there is one other defect of this House, and that is excessive party discipline. Because the House of Commons can in extreme circumstances make and unmake Governments, it follows that a certain degree of party discipline is unavoidable. A Government, in normal circumstances, have to be reasonably certain of their majority—it is the foundation for it—but I believe that party discipline has been tremendously overdone on both sides of the House during the past thirty years.
  I think that it is, as we know it today, one of the evil legacies of 1931 when mere subservience to the Executive was regarded as being a political virtue. It seems to me that for all these reasons there is a great deal to be said for having a second Chamber whose Members are not subject to the same pressures, as the Members of the House
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  of Commons, and who are not so much at the mercy of their own timetable.
  I would also say—some of my hon. Friends may not agree with me—that there may be a good deal to be said for having a second Chamber when, as now, we are reaching the later stages of a Parliament and when the Government have quite clearly lost the confidence of the electorate. The present Administration are in a very similar position to that of Mr. Balfour's, in 1904. No one had very much doubt what would happen to them when they had to face the electorate.
  But the Government today, like the Government then, has apparently resolved to drag on its miserable broken-backed existence to the very last moment. They are supported by a large number of hon. Members opposite who know that their chances of survival at the polls are microscopic. When we have circumstances like that, we are not dealing with a newly elected House of Commons, which, as Bagehot said, has always been the ultimate authority in the British Constitution, we are dealing with an ageing House of Commons, and I believe that there would be virtue in having an effective second Chamber.
  What sort of second Chamber ought it to be? There are only two alternatives. It can be elected, or it can be nominated. The only system of election which I think has ever been worked out was that worked out in the Bryce Report, in 1917. It is a remarkable thing, when we reflect on all the controversy that there has been over the House of Lords and its powers, that the only authoritative Commission which has ever considered the constitution of the second Chamber was the Bryce Commission, all those years ago.
  It proposed, in effect, that the House of Lords should be made up elected Members and nominated Members. The elected Members would be elected on a geographical basis by Members of the House of Commons, but they would be elected for a fixed term in each case of twelve years. They would be elected to represent the particular districts or areas, Members for the West Country, or East Anglia, or Wales, or Scotland, each meeting at certain intervals to

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  make their election, and it was also suggested that there should be 81 Members who should be chosen—nominated in a sense—by a standing commission of both Houses. That would have been a rational basis on which to form a kind of senate in this country. The alternative was proposed in 1948 at a conference of the leaders of all three parties.
  Though they could not agree on the powers of the House of Lords they agreed on what they thought should be its composition. As John Bright said:
  "The worst of these great thinkers is that they so often think wrong."
  They certainly thought wrong on that occasion, because they proposed that there should be a wholly nominated Chamber and that the nominees should take their place in that Chamber and should receive some kind of remuneration. I do not think that they themselves mentioned a figure, but the figure canvassed at that time was a salary of £1,000 a year. That seems to me to be open to every possible objection, because it would bring back patronage in this country to an extent unknown here since the eighteenth century.
  No doubt the figure of £1,000 would now be higher and it would mean that each party machine would have in its gift a large number of paid appointments which could be treated by their holders either as part-time jobs or as sinecures. I say this not only to the Government, but to my right hon. Friends. I hope that in these circumstances, whatever reform is proposed, we shall never return to the proposals of 1948. Therefore, for this reason, taking advantage of the Second Reading of this Bill, I strongly urge the appointment of another high-powered commission, rather similar to the Bryce Commission of forty-six years ago. I would urge these considerations on hon. and right hon. Members on both Front Benches.
  I have been complaining here not of what the Bill includes, but of what it does not, because in Committee on the Bill we shall not be able to canvass these wider principles which I have endeavoured to mention. Like every other hon. Member I welcome the Bill, such as it is. It is a modest Measure, but it will redress considerable injustice both to individuals and to electors.
  5.2 p.m.
  Sir William Teeling: The hon. and learned Member for Ipswich (Mr. D. Foot) has covered a very wide range on a Bill which, as far as I can see, has a much narrower object. It is also, I suppose, inevitable that the tendency here today is to speak mainly on the subject of Members of this House deciding whether they should go to the House of Lords or stay here. At the same time the Bill has two or three other sides to it, such as allowing peeresses to take their seats and Scottish peers to become no longer representatives but actually to hold United Kingdom peerages.
  I think that a very grave injustice is being done to one other body of people, namely, the Irish peers, and I hope that before we come to a final decision on the Bill the Attorney-General and others will look into the constitutional question, although I know that it has been raised already in Committee before we received the Bill. On the arguments used by Lord Hailsham in another place, it seems to me that the Government have been wrong on many points with regard to the original Act of Union and the position of the Irish peers. When this matter was raised in this House many hon. Members interrupted my hon. and noble Friend the Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone (Lord Robert Grosvenor), and they seemed to think that these people represented the Irish, being members of one country, but in fact the claim is that they represent the peerage of Ireland.
  Lord Hailsham said that that was not true and that they represented Ireland. Later he was written to by the present Recorder of Hastings, who is an Irish peer, and it was pointed out to him where he was wrong. I understand that Lord Hailsham has replied, unfortunately in private, admitting that he was wrong but so far he has not admitted it publicly. I hope that when this Bill goes to the House of Lords he will take steps to correct the mistakes he made. The Union with Ireland Act, 1800, does not state in Sections 39 and 40 exactly what the Irish representative peers represent, but by Article IV of that English Act it is provided that an
  "…Act shall be passed in the Parliament of Ireland previous to the Union to regulate the mode by which the Lords spiritual and temporal and the Commons, to serve in the

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  Parliament of the United Kingdom on the part of Ireland, shall be summoned and returned to the said Parliament, shall be considered as forming part of the Treaty of Union, and shall be incorporated in the Acts of the respective Parliaments by which the said Union shall be ratified and established."
  In the Irish Act of 1800, to which I have referred, and which had to come before this Act, it is expressly stated in Article IV that the 28 lords temporal are to be elected
  "to represent the peerage of Ireland in the Parliament of the United Kingdom"
  and not the Irish people as such.
  If any further authority is needed for that, it can be found in the article on "Parliament" in Halsbury's Laws of England, third edition, volume 28, of which I believe Lord Kilmuir was the chief author. It reads:
  "So long as any representative peer for Ireland remains in the House of Lords, he has a seat in the House of Lords as a representative neither of the Republic of Ireland nor of Northern Ireland, but of the peerage of Ireland."
  This is what the Irish peers are claiming today.
  At one period it was said that most of them lived in Southern Ireland, which is now an independent country, but the figures have been looked into and it has been found that of the 69 Irish peers involved, 46 live in the United Kingdom, four of these being in Ulster. Only 17 live in Eire and four others live overseas and, as my noble Friend the Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone has added, two have been "mislaid ". This means that there are 69 who today have no means to go to the House of Lords. They have a legal right but, as we all know, that has gone wrong because when in 1922 Southern Ireland became a member of the Commonwealth but not yet independent it was decided that there should be no Lord Chancellor in Ireland, and part of the arrangement under the Act had been that whenever an Irish representative peerage became vacant the Lord Chancellor of the United Kingdom should write to the Lord Chancellor of Ireland and ask him to call together the Irish peers and they would elect someone to the vacant life peerage. This, of course, could no longer be done, with the net result that bit by bit, as they died, no one has been replacing them.
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  At the same time they have a perfect constitutional right to be represented and if anything goes wrong they have also, according to the original Act of Union an arrangement for arbitration in the event of any dispute. This is provided for in Article IV of the English Act of George III, Sections 39 and 40, col. 67, which says that
  "…questions attaching to the rotation or election of Lords spiritual and temporal of Ireland to sit in the Parliament of the United Kingdom shall be decided by the House of Lords thereof…"
  It shall not be decided by a Committee of both Houses, as is being done now, and I understand that the Irish peers are about to get together and try to test this case, or at least petition the Queen about it.
  In 1922 it was quite obvious that there had been a slip-up about the Lord Chancellorship, but at that time, as hon. Gentlemen will remember, there was a good deal of bitterness about Ireland; things were going very badly and there was practically civil war; and it was not felt to be a moment when it would be a very popular move to try to do anything about having Irish peers in the House of Lords. Because of that, this injustice has gone on from that date to this. Nothing was actually done.
  There are, I believe, something like 140 Irish peers in existence. Of those, many have United Kingdom peerages or other peerages, and therefore the number immediately affected is only69 who are at present without a place. To refer back again for a moment to that period, as 28 was the number allowed to represent the number of people concerned in 1800, it may be said that the number would be less now. I think everybody would agree to that.
  As the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Smethwick (Mr. Gordon Walker) said, it will make things much easier it we allow the Scottish peers to become United Kingdom peers than have them elected each Parliament. So I think that something ought to be done for the Irish peers on those lines. I do not say that the whole 69 should be found places in the House of Lords. It was suggested in our last debate that the number should be only four. I think that would be rather unfair. It is in the power of Her Majesty the Queen to appoint life peers, and I feel, and it has been

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  suggested in another place, that it could be put to Her Majesty by the Prime Minister, or whoever will be responsible for it, that a certain number of representatives of those Irish peers should be made life peers. I do not think that that would be unfair.
  After all, they practically all of them have extremely good British records. As I say, the vast majority of them are living in the United Kingdom. Their peerages were given them in days long ago for a variety of reasons which were gone into in the last debate and there is no point in going into them again now, but I would point out a small detail of interest.
  We have been talking so much about courtesy titles and whether peers who disclaim will be able to retain them or not. There are many Irish peers in the House of Lords with higher titles than their United Kingdom ones. Two just occur to me, the Marquess of Ely and the Marquess of Headfort. Both of them have Irish marques sates but sit as United Kingdom barons, by virtue of United Kingdom baronies which they obtained during the last century. They inherit their marques sates and they come in also for the United Kingdom baronies. Suppose before their fathers died they were Members of this House, or wanted to sit in this House: they could do so after this Bill has been passed, and they presumably would lose their United Kingdom baronies—they would not be allowed to retain them during their lives. But what would happen to their marques sates? They would presumably be allowed to keep them, and their higher rank for their children and their families.
  That would be an anomaly separate to the Irish alone. The Irish peers themselves claim something should be made clear about this and if something is not done about it to clear the matter up we shall be left in the position, as mentioned by Lord Kilmuir in a debate in another place, that the Irish peers will be left as they were before. They will be the only people, a complete anomaly, left in that position. The original constitutional position under the original Act of 1800 will have been broken, but they will be left as an entirely separate entity and body under the Queen. If subsequently the Labour Party or others
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  decided to abolish peerage, they would not be able to touch the Irish peers, for they would be completely separate and beyond that control. The Irish peers do not want to be in that position; they want the link and the control of the link, and the only reason why there were the representative peers was that there should be that link. I hope that this possibility and danger may be carefully studied both in Committee on the Bill and again in the House of Lords.
  5.15 p.m.
  Mr, Eric Lubbock: I do not want to follow the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Sir W. Teeling) into this discussion of the rights of Irish peers except just to remark that if the proposals before us now are accepted we shall, I believe, be adding some 34 peers to the 930 who are already entitled to sit in another place, and if his ideas which he has suggested were accepted we should increase the total to something over 1,000, which I do not think myself would be a good thing.
  I want first of all to say that this is, I think, Mr. Wedgwood Benn's day, and I myself have always been full of admiration for the long and gallant fight he has put up. It is a rather sad reflection on the conduct of affairs in this country that it should have needed the determined and courageous efforts of this one man to focus attention on a problem which has been with us for so many years.
  It is true, as the hon. and learned Member for Ipswich (Mr. D. Foot) said, that reform of the House of Lords has been very slow. It has been proceeding on leaden feet through the decades and centuries. In the days of the great struggle between the Liberal Party and the House of Lords, in the days before the First World War, it must have seemed to many people as though abolition of peerage was both inevitable and imminent. It was brought about, of course, by the peers' continuing obstruction of the progressive legislation which the Government of the day were introducing. Yet here we are, 50 years after the passing of the great Parliament Act, solemnly considering the comparatively insignificant question of whether we should permit succeeding heirs to renounce for their lifetime their peerages—for their lifetime, be it noted, because under these

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  proposals the same choice would be available to every succeeding generation.
  On the Motion to take note of the Report of the Joint Committee on so-called House of Lords reform—which, of course, it was not—the Leader of the House threatened that if anybody tried to modify the recommendations of the Joint Committee other than in very minor aspects the reactionaries would retaliate by returning to the attack with their own solutions which, he implied, they had been persuaded not to press because of the concessions made by those favouring more drastic reforms.
  All the same, I think it should be put on record that we in the Liberal Party are extremely dissastisfied—as my hon. Friend the Member for Huddersfield, West (Mr. Wade), who was a member of the Joint Committee, said—with the method of suspending peerages for the lifetime of persons who disclaim. My hon. Friend made it quite clear that he was opposed to the hereditary principle as such and he did not consider that anybody should be entitled to sit in the Legislature purely by virtue of his birth. I do not see that that is a proposition with which any sane man could possibly disagree, but my hon. Friend, I believe, would have been prepared to compromise on this for the time being, without, of course, committing any future Liberal Government to being quite so restrained, and I think he would have been prepared to make a compromise for the sake of reaching agreement. In the Joint Committee he moved an amendment which would have considerably widened the scope of this inquiry and would have brought in matters such as the hereditary principle itself, and whether the composition of the second Chamber should be determined by selection or election.
  But on the more limited question of whether renunciation, as I prefer to call it, should be made temporary or permanent, I think I should warn the Leader of the House that we are not prepared to compromise at all, and in passing I remark that in spite of the play which is made with the use of the word "disclaim "the dictionary tells us that it is a synonym for "renounce ". So I do not think that it would be necessary to do as we wish, to alter the word "disclaim "wherever it occurs in the Bill.
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  It is quite instructive to look at the voting on this question in the Joint Committee. Naturally, as one would expect, out of the nine peers who voted eight were in favour of making renunciation effective for a person's lifetime only. Of the commoners there were five in favour of making renunciation permanent and four in favour of it for life only. One of these was the hon. Member for Windsor (SirC. Mott-Radclyffe), who seemed to contradict what he said in the debate on 28th March, 1962, that, if one allowed people to renounce for a lifetime only, we should reach
  "the rather strange position of successive generations opting in and out like jacks-in-the-box in respect of certain hereditary obligations."—[Official Report, 28th March, 1962; Vol. 656, c. 1380.]
  He seems to have changed his mind during the last year.
  The fact that the voting was on those lines shows that a different view of the matter might be taken if the decision were in the hands of this House alone I am quite certain that this would be true if it were put to the people as a whole; they might see it as a comparatively simple way of thinning out, over a long period of years, the swollen ranks of the hereditary peerage. This would fall a long way short of the radical changes which some of us would like to see, but it would at least be a small breach in the edifice of privilege.
  In either case, no one will be naive enough to believe that the granting of the rights proposed in the Bill will lead to a wholesale exodus from another place. The ostensible advantages of being a peer are quite negligible, but everyone will agree that, in a class-based society such as, unfortunately, we still have in this country even after the upheaval of the last war, the holder of a peerage can exploit his position to give himself tangible advantages. He can, for example, write articles for magazines or newspapers even if he is practically illiterate. He is invited to undertake this work. He is welcomed on to the boards of large companies which are quite happy to pay him substantial fees merely for the privilege of allowing his name to appear on the letter heading.
  In the circumstances, it is obvious that the only persons who have any incentive to disclaim a peerage to which they might be entitled are those who know they can

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  obtain, or, if they are already Members of this House, retain, a safe seat in the House of Commons. The hon. Member for Kidderminster (Sir G. Nabarro), who speaks much more sensibly on this subject than on some others, has estimated that the maximum number of peers who might offer themselves for election at any one General Election would be 12. In fact, he put the number at between6 and 12, but his top figure was 12. I should be very surprised if that number were ever reached, unless hon. Members can produce evidence to show that I am wrong. By comparing that figure with the total number entitled to sit in another place, we can put the matter in perspective. It is 12 out of 930, which amounts to only a little more than 1 per cent. of the Members of another place who would, or might, desert at a General Election every five years—hardly enough to warrant the amount of Parliamentary time which is being given to such a minor reform.
  With the hon. and learned Member for Ipswich, I hope that one of the outcomes of our debates will be the initiation of reform on a very much wider front. As he said, there seems to be widespread agreement that we need some kind of second Chamber, but I should not exclude from the terms of reference of the Commission which he proposed the question whether we need a second Chamber at all. No doubt we could ascertain whether it would be practically possible for the remainder of the functions of the House of Lords to be handed over to this House and what changes in our procedure here would be necessary to bring that about. But if this is not thought desirable, we ought at least to consider the composition of the second Chamber as a whole and not merely the right of a few people to decline or accept membership of it.
  It is to me unthinkable that, if the House of Lords did not exist today and it were being set up for the first time, we should decide to base membership of it on the hereditary principle. We should certainly have elections to the second Chamber just as every other democratic country I can think of has now.
  The arguments in favour of the hereditary principle are summarised in the Report of the Joint Committee in a memorandum submitted by the Garter Prin-
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  cipal King of Arms. If one studies it, one sees that, although those arguments might have been thought valid in the eighteenth century, they make absolutely no sense today. For example, the genetic argument is manifestly untenable when one considers the unstable behaviour of some noble Lords which is reported almost daily in the national Press.
  Mr. Scholefield Allen: And on television.
  Mr. Lubbock: And on television.
  Mr. Sydney Silverman: After this Bill, that noble Lord might be here.
  Mr. Robert Cooke: Before he leaves that point, will the hon. Gentleman say how he suggests we should get any really young people as Members of the other House unless we stuck to the hereditary principle?
  Mr. Lubbock: These are matters which could be referred to a Commission of the type suggested by the hon. and learned Member for Ipswich. The fact that membership of this House is based on election and not on hereditary principle does not mean that we have no younger Members here. The hon. Gentleman himself is an example.
  I turn now to two memoranda submitted to the Joint Committee by the noble Lord, Lord Hailsham. His memoranda contain what I regard as rather stale and vapid thoughts with which it would not be worth while troubling the House were it not for the fact that they seem to represent a fairly wide body of opinion within the Tory Party. The noble Lord, of course, is an upholder of the hereditary principle where it suits him. He advances the contention that
  "most peers regard their position as involving responsibilities and duties and not simply privileges".
  In my view, the late Lord Samuel was nearer the truth when he remarked that the House of Lords is the only institution in the world which is kept going by the persistent absenteeism of the great majority of its Members.
  Lord Hailsham in his memoranda gives his reasons for objecting to the complete extinction of a title at the choice, as he puts it, of its "temporary holder", He says that many of these titles
  "are links with a famous past and justly regarded as a part of the national heritage".
  Hon. Members: Hear, hear.
  Mr. Lubbock: I note that that meets with approval on the benches opposite. One might, perhaps, agree with it if one could guarantee that all successors were worthy upholders of the famous names which they bore, but, in practice, the degrading conduct of some of the descendants of some of our greatest men of the past is an insult to our national heritage. Even if this were not so, it is, in my view, time that we stopped living on our past glories. The existence of a system of titles does not help us to export any more atomic power stations or improve our balance of payments.
  Lord Hailsham points also to the unfairness which complete extinction of titles might inflict on remote heirs who might wish to inherit when their turn came. But no one has hitherto successfully objected until this date to the unfairness involved in forcing a person to accept a title which he does not wish to hold since, I believe, the fourteen century, as the hon. Member for Lincoln (Mr. Taverne) remarked in a previous debate on this subject.
  But the noble Lord, Lord Hailsham, accepts the concept of renunciation. In fact, he holds to it even more strongly now than when he first succeeded, possibly because he thinks in his own case that it will enable him ultimately to grasp the mantle of leadership which is slipping from the moribund hands of the Prime Minister. It is extraordinary that, after the events of the last few months and the startling revelations of the Prime Minister's total incompetence at the beginning of this week, he is still in his office. There is one possible explanation for the way that he clings to his office, and that is that the inner circles of the Tory Party may already have decided in their inimitably undemocratic way that Lord Hailsham will replace him. If that is the case, the resignation of the Prime Minister would have to be delayed until this Bill has taken effect. If that happens, we can give an even more literal meaning to the words of Collingbourne which already apply so aptly to this wretched Administration:
  "The cat, the rat, and Lovell our dog,
  Do rule all England under a hog."
  5.32 p.m.
  Sir Kenneth Pickthorn: I have several disqualifications for addressing the House today—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] I thought that there would be somebody below the Gangway clever enough to see that one. I have several disqualifications for addressing the House on this topic. Once upon a time I had a little learning in the prehistory of this matter. I have now forgotten all that, and the worst minds to bring to these topics are those which think that they are informed when really they are no more than forgetful.
  Secondly, I sat on the Committee of Privileges by the sad accident for this House, although, I hope, glorious for him, of the departure of one of my colleagues to the House of Lords. So I came in on the middle of it.
  Thirdly, I sat on the Joint Select Committee, and there, I am afraid, I betrayed and let down the House, because, although I was present at all the informal discussions—and those who have sat on Select Committees know that the thoughts in the heads of the people discussing emerge at the informal discussions, but always with provisos and caveats, and so on—about not being committed—I sat through that stage, but when it came to the formal and voting stages I was removed by act of God or some other superhuman authority from almost all the rest of the proceedings. Therefore, I am not in any sense a good authority on this; nor have I prepared a systematic dissertation for the House.
  One or two things have been said which perhaps I might be allowed to comment upon. I should like to comment first on references to the hereditary system, or the hereditary principle. I do not want today to defend a hereditary system or hereditary principle: I am not sure what the words can be taken to mean. On the other hand, we had a warning from the right hon. Member for Smethwick (Mr. Gordon Walker)—perhaps he could bear to listen to me for a moment at the cost of not listening to his colleague next to him—that in these matters one must not stick too closely to logic, especially to verbal logic. He indicated—and I entirely agree—that there is a certain amount of feeling and common sense which necessarily comes into it.

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  I think that that is true about what I will call—and I think it is an uncontroversial and anodyne word—the hereditary factor in life. There is nobody who does not believe in it, and that is the honest truth. I do not know how many trade unionists opposite would deny that in trade union affairs and in matters of wage-earning employment, and so on, it is sometimes of very great advantage to belong to a certain family, to be in the business, to have been in the business, and so on. That has been true since Old Testament times, and I suppose that it always will be true.
  What is rather striking is that in this matter Mr. Wedgwood Benn showed some signs of believing in the hereditary factor, and so did three or four of his more Leftish supporters on the benches opposite. I will not weary the House with quotations, but Mr. Wedgwood Benn, when he was before the House of Lords in his first attempt and when precedent was quoted against him, used as an argument against unfavourable precedent that both his grandfather and father had sat in this House. The right hon. Member for South Shields(Mr. Ede) and the hon. Lady the Member for Cannock (Miss Lee) spoke more than once about how Mr. Wedgwood Benn's case should be very carefully considered and how strong his claims were because of the distinction of his family, because of their Liberalism, patriotism, effectiveness in and devotion to the House of Commons.
  Therefore, in spite of all this stuff about, "Do not be mediaeval, old boy, remember that this is the twentieth century", which some of us may even come to regret—anyway, I have never found it possible to forget it—all this kind of stuff will not do. The hereditary factor is a real thing, and the agitation and this Bill and what led up to it, and as was observed by those on the benches opposite, especially by the hon. Member for Leeds, West (Mr. C. Pannell)—I could quote from him—whatever came out of this Committee it was bound to be something which, I think the hon. Member said, would affront, or perhaps it was damage, the hereditary factor. Perhaps he said that it would diminish it. I think that the hon. Gentleman was right.
  Whether this is the best moment to
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  diminish still further the recognition of that factor which already has been diminished very much I do not feel sure. Nor do I feel sure that it is in the interests of the democrats opposite, who always use democracy nowadays as though it were a synonym for all that is good and who might well remember as part of this common sense which the right hon. Gentleman indicated about the hereditary wisdom of ordinary people in their ordinary conversations and actions in this country that when we absolutely complete a process we have begun the opposite. The people in this country are deeply saturated with that superstition, and it is a very true one. It is not necessarily the fact that what may seem to be logically more democratic is in fact conducive to the continuance and aggrandisement of that democratic arrangement which we have arrived at in this country.
  I do not want to go on at length about the hereditary factor, but I did not want the matter-of-course damning to go by default. There is the habitual assumption that what is unfashionable is, and always has been, absolutely dead and meaningless, which is the most nonsensical assumption in the world. I did not think that that should go by without some very slight comment.
  The hon. and learned Member for Ipswich (Mr. D. Foot), whose long and varied experience of politics has made him quick and clever enough to be out of the Chamber for most of the last speech but who came back just before the end of it and now has been clever and quick enough to go out again, will not mind if I now remind him that if he wants to be dragged into the twentieth century he might begin by remembering that glass—I know that there is nothing like leather—glass is not at all like leather. It has superseded leather for the purpose of storing wine and therefore the sense in which the hon. and learned Member quoted Holy Writ, namely, in warning against putting new wine into old bottles, was really of opposite effect to what he meant it to be.
  I want to say a word which will please my listeners on the benches opposite, as perhaps I have failed to do hitherto. As at present advised, I agree with the hon. and learned Member and I refrained

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  from voting—it was almost the only vote for which I was present in the Select Committee—because I then was not quite sure. On the whole, I agree with him on the principle that if anything like what is suggested is to be done, it ought to be done by drowning the peerage and not by putting it to sleep ready to wake up when it might choose.
  Anybody who has inherited, so to speak, a whole hereditary package of things which, in his judgment, are good things and bad things, should accept his father's assets and also accept his father's debits. That is why I am dubious about the whole principle, although I am prepared to acquiesce in it and do not think we need spend a lot of time discussing it, as everybody else is prepared to acquiesce in the principle of the Bill.
  It is obviously true that if one accepts the hereditary factors sufficiently to say that it has been proper hitherto and still will continue to be proper, with certain reservations and modifications, for a single member of a single generation by his action to make sure that his descendants, if any, 50 or 500 years later will have a peerage—if that is proper, it seems to me impossible to deny the propriety when the decision made by the single member of a single generation is that the family should not be able to claim back the peerage. So that, as at present advised on this point, I agree with hon. and right hon. Members opposite on that.
  Those are, I think, most of the things which, I felt, should be said. We ought not now to go back on to the things about Mr. Wedgwood Benn's case and how good or how bad it was. We have had a little too much today about how good he was and how remarkable it is that we should have had to await for this Bill, his nobility and ability. I have not a word to say against those things, but to put the argument upon him personally is an invitation to somebody to put what considerations there may be on the other side—and there are some considerations on the other side.
  We have had complaints today, for instance, about the disfranchisement of the electors of Bristol. I wish that the hon. Member from wherever it is, Colne and Nelson or somewhere, if he must
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  always talk when he is sitting in the House, would do it not quite so loudly.
  Mr. S. Silverman: On a point of order. If the hon. Gentleman wishes to make a reference to anybody, would it not be better if he made it clear to whom he is referring and what he is objecting to, or is he saying that when he speaks, let no dog bark?
  Sir K. Pickthorn: No, he was not really saying so, nor was he ennobling anybody with the title of "dog". What he was saying was what he did say, that he wished the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman), when he sits in the House conversing, would not converse quite so loudly.
  Mr. Silverman: On a point of order. I must appeal to you, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, to be protected from these insults. I will accept it from you if you so rule, but I am not accepting from the hon. Member that Members of the House sitting in their seats are not allowed to converse with one another while the hon. Gentleman is speaking. Such a suggestion is nonsense.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Sir William Anstruther-Gray): It was no Ruling of mine. Certainly, there is no reason why an hon. Member who is making a speech should not refer to the fact that other hon. Members do not appear to be paying so much attention to his words as he might have wished. That is perfectly in order.
  Sir K. Pickthorn: I am one who speaks unwillingly and not very often and who finds it much more difficult to speak and who speaks much worse if loud conversations are continued. In my judgment, it is not a fair way of debating that that should be done, and that is what I was referring to.
  In continuation of what I was saying when I interrupted myself, another thing that is worth remembering is that it was the Opposition Whips who moved for a Writ to fill the room of Mr. Wedgwood Benn. That made it rather difficult to do what, in any case, was impossibly difficult, although it was attempted by the hon. and learned Member for Ipswich, to accept and further the final Wedgwood Benn case, the case that was put before the Committee of Privileges and which was quite different from the

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  case which was put at the time of the Private Bill in the House of Lords.
  I do not want to pursue these things any further. I only want to make it plain that upon this matter of the relationship of the Bill, which is a Bill of considerable constitutional importance—the right hon. Member for Belper (Mr. G. Brown) described it, I think, as being of tremendous constitutional importance and the hon. and learned Member for Kettering (Mr. Mitchison) has said something of the same sort—we ought to be slow to assume that the source and origin of it and its whole justification have been the strength of the personal claims of the person primarily concerned.
  5.47 p.m.
  Mr. Roy Jenkins: Although, in general, sympathetic to a paradoxical argument—which, I took it, was what the hon. Member for Carlton (Sir K. Pickthorn) was trying to deploy about the hereditary principle—I found it a little difficult to follow the case which he was putting in the earlier part of his speech.
  As I understood it, however, one of the points that the hon. Member was trying to make was that one should not be too sceptical about an hereditary peerage, because some form of hereditary activity or behaviour was applied in a great number of directions and many parents tried to pass on advantages to their children and many children derived advantages from their parents. That may well be the case, but that is hardly an argument for enshrining such a matter as a principle of law and of the constitution.
  In a way the hon. Member for Peterborough (Sir Harmar Nicholls) deployed the hereditary case in extreme form and even more cogently than did the hon. Member for Carlton. I was surprised how far the hon. Baronet—I hope that he was not too influenced by his new hereditary title—went in his defence of the hereditary principle. He or anyone else who tries to tie up the fate and the strength of the monarchy with the position and powers of an hereditary peerage is behaving foolishly and doing great disservice to the monarchy.
  The last sovereign who showed any sign of being worried about this was King
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  Edward VII at the time when the first disputes leading up to the Parliament Act came about. He expressed doubt about what the position of the monarchy would be if the buttress of a powerful hereditary peerage was removed. He was firmly assured by the Prime Minister of the day that it was most unwise to link the fate of the monarchy in that way with a reactionary and unrepresentative House of Lords. The question has wisely not been raised by any sovereign since then.
  The detailed proposition put forward by the hon. Baronet was a curious one. What it amounted to was that instead of the present provisions in the Bill by which a peerage can be put into abeyance for a generation, there should automatically be a succession so that a peerage could never not be in a position of being actively held, if that is the right phrase, even though this, of course, might, from the point of view of those who believe in the value and importance of the peerage, involve some injustice subsequently to the son of the peer renouncing his rights.
  The hon. Member's point can have force only in so far as he takes the view that nothing must be done to reduce the number of peers at any one time, because otherwise there would be a serious derogation from the position of the peerage and the service it is entitled to render to the country.
  Sir Harmar Nicholls: I did not mean that. If it is the considered policy of the nation and Parliament that the number of hereditary peers should be reduced, let it be through the front door as a matter of constructive policy and not through the side door.
  Mr. Jenkins: But this is a side-door Bill which no one pretends even touches the fringe of the problem of the House of Lords. It deals only with certain anomalies and injustices to a very limited number of individuals. I am glad that we have the Bill because those injustices were intolerable. The Bill is great tribute to the determination and skill in putting his case of Mr. Wedgwood Benn, for without him we would not have had it. But there is no doubt that the Measure does not really grasp the nettle of the problem of an hereditary peerage or second Chamber.
  I am surprised that the hon. Member

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  took the view that one cannot afford to have a peerage in abeyance for a limited period. I would not have thought anyone would be particularly concerned about there being an insufficient number of peerages. The forces working on the peerage for a long time have been inflationary. Surely no one could object to a little deflationary pressure to counter the persistent inflationary pressure which has been going on for the last forty years.
  Sir Harmar Nicholls: I want to make my position clear. I rested my case largely on the fact that I do not think that a man who has divested himself of a peerage ought to have all the advantages of being an owner, as it was put by the right hon. Member for Smethwick (Mr. Gordon Walker), and should still hang on to the moneybags—the entailed estates. I think that the entailed estates should be kept alive to go to the next in succession.
  Mr. Jenkins: If that were done, all sorts of questions ranging very widely over the law of property generally would be involved. Here we are dealing exclusively with the right of a man and his heirs either to sit in another place or in this Chamber. I would have thought that a little deflationary pressure on the size of the peerage would not be a bad thing.
  I remind the hon. Member for Orpington (Mr. Lubbock), who is a Liberal, when he says that he does not think that anyone could possibly want the size of the peerage to rise to over 1,000, that the only person I know of who was in favour as long ago as fifty years of a peerage of the size of 1,000 was the right hon. Member for Wood ford (Sir W. Churchill), sitting then as a Liberal Minister.
  The right hon. Gentleman expressed this view at the time of the controversy leading up to the passage of the Parliament Act, 1911. As the House will recall, there was a great controversy as to whether or not it would be necessary to make a mass creation of peers in order to get the Measure through. The general line taken by almost everyone in the Liberal Party, and certainly by everybody outside, was that, while the threat might have to be used, it was highly desirable that it should not be put into effect—that it should be a threat but nothing more.
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  The right hon. Gentleman had occasion to write a remarkable letter to Mr. Asquith, the Prime Minister, in which he said that he dissented entirely. He thought that it would be a good thing to create 500 peers since the country could well afford 1,000 notables in its then state of wealth, and that their creation would lead to a great increase in the influence of the Liberal Party throughout the country.
  The right hon. Gentleman, with his inimitable gift for phrase-making, concluded by saying:
  "Therefore, let us go forward clanking coronets in our scabbards."
  Apart from the right hon. Gentleman I am not aware of anyone who has advocated the advantages of a House of Peers of 1,000 or more Members.
  I am sorry to see that the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Sir W. Teeling) has left the Chamber. He spoke of unfair treatment of Irish peers. I do not think that it was so much unfair treatment under this Bill as the fact that the opportunity of the Bill was not being taken to give them fairer treatment than they have had in the last forty years that he was complaining about. But I find it very difficult to attach much conviction to the argument he deployed that there was extremely unfair treatment of these 67 gentlemen.
  The argument as to whether they should represent the peerage of Ireland or Ireland itself is an extraordinarily sophistical one. The representation was set up as part of the bargain of the Act of Union in 1800 and it is inconceivable that it would have existed had an Act of Union between the two countries not been created then. We could not have had a representation of the peerage of a non-existent country.
  Considering the circumstances in which that Act of Union ceased to exist forty years ago, to go back and recreate special representation of this category of peers would be farcical. It would be as though one had created a peerage of the thirteen colonies in the eighteenth century and claimed that now we should have representative peers of the United States sitting in the House of Lords.
  In fact, the Irish peers have been in a very favourable position. They have

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  been in exactly the position to some extent which has been almost universally agreed, in the discussions leading up to this Bill, that people should not be allowed to be in. It is the position of having an option. Lord Curzon, for instance, although as far as I know he had nothing to do with Ireland, when he became Viceroy of India in about 1899 and had to accept a peerage because it was thought then to be the natural accompaniment of viceroyaity, chose to accept an Irish peerage in order to give himself the right, as he was a relatively young man, to return to this House if he wished to do so.
  When he came back, rather under a cloud, he did not find it so easy to come back into the full stream of unionist politics, and he chose at that stage to be elected a representative peer of Ireland. Ironically enough, however, in 1922 it was thought that this peerage excluded him from the Premiership. This was although he had since accumulated higher peerages.
  There is no particular injustice to these 67 gentlemen. The suggestion that they should have life peerages specially conferred upon them is a most extraordinary idea. They are certainly eligible for life peerages if anything they have done suggests that they would be particularly useful members of another place, but the idea that they should be given life peerages merely because of an anomalous position seems very far fetched.
  Lord Robert Grosvenor: The hon. Member has rested his argument on the Act of Union, 1800, when, as we all know, many Irish peerages were created. But many were created before that and it would not be fair to base the entire argument on the Act of Union when many Irish peerages were in existence long before 1800.
  Mr. Jenkins: Yes, but the idea of representation in the United Kingdom Parliament of the Irish peerage as a class was something which arose from the Act of Union of 1800. The Irish peerage at no time in itself conferred the right to sit in the House of Lords of the United Kingdom. It did confer the right to sit in the Upper Chamber of the Irish Parliament.
  When that Parliament was abolished,
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  as part of the arrangements for the Act of Union, arrangements for limited representation in the United Kingdom House of Lords were made. That Act of Union no longer exists. What basis is there now for special representation along the lines of the arrangements made on the Act of Union and made then for no other reason, made for reasons having nothing to do with the fact that peerages not giving and not intended to give the right to sit in the United Kingdom Upper Chamber were conferred before 1800?
  Lord Robert Grosvenor: I agree that that is part of the case, but the contention by the peers of Ireland is that the Scottish peers are treated in a certain way and are made equal with the English peers while the Irish peers are not.
  Mr. Jenkins: So far as I am aware, there is still a United Kingdom between England and Scotland, which seems to make the matter rather different. I am sorry that the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion is not here. He deployed this argument himself and I can only place on record the fact that I found it a singularly unconvincing argument, not merely because of the way he deployed it, not at all because of that, but because of the inherent nature of the case.
  The fact that we are tinkering away with the House of Lords, first, by letting in life peers and, secondly, through the Bill allowing certain peers to opt out, inevitably brings nearer the day when we shall have to raise the whole question of the House of Lords itself. I do not find it as easy as does my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Ipswich (Mr. D. Foot) to see exactly what sort of second Chamber ought to be constructed. It may be that my hon. and learned Friend started with the clear conviction that the second Chamber was of great value, but I do not go along with him in that. It may be of some limited value in certain circumstances, but it can be said against that that it is extraordinarily difficult to construct a second Chamber which is both useful and democratic and not an unjustified rival to the main seat of power, as it should be, the Lower House.
  6.3 p.m.
  Mr. A. R. Wise: It is difficult to follow the hon. Member for Birmingham, Stechford (Mr. Roy Jenkins),

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  with whom I basically agree in much of what he says, even on the subject of the Irish peers. There is one great distinction between them and the Scottish peers. So far as I know, Scottish peers are not allowed to offer themselves for election to this House and Irish peers always have been. Therefore, they have no complaint of any kind, because, if they have been loyal enough to remain British subjects, which some of them have not, they have every right to offer themselves for election to this House. I think that we can dismiss that argument.
  I am sorry that the hon. and learned Member for Ipswich (Mr. D. Foot) is temorarily not in his place, because I wanted to agree with him, too. His views on a second Chamber and its absolute necessity are extremely sound. I suggest to him that he has a good deal of missionary work to do on his own Front Bench and I trust that he and the hon. Member for Stechford will start on that without delay. I do not think that there is much danger of the party opposite forming the Government of this country in the very near future, but, in case it does, hon. Members opposite might as well have some sound and constructive views on this matter.
  The hon. and learned Member for Ipswich rather gave the show away when he was saying that he was hoping that he would be confronting his old Friend, who was then to be Mr. Hogg, on these benches, arguing, therefore, that in this way Mr. Hogg would be on this side of the Chamber; and of course he will be.
  Mr. Cyril Bence: He may change sides.
  Mr. Wise: That is an unlikely contingency; he is a fastidious man.
  I want to be perfectly clear. I dislike this Bill intensely from almost every point of view. As has been said, it is piecemeal dealing with a major problem with which I have thought we should deal ever since I was first elected to the House. In the second debate on the Address which I ever heard, I took part in an effort to secure some sort of agreement that something should be done. I point out that it was a pronouncement of my own party in the General Election of 1924 that the reform of the second Chamber was something which would brook no delay. So far, all the efforts have
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  been rightly described by hon. Members opposite as tinkering.
  I am not devastatingly attached to the hereditary principle. If we look at it in action and then at ourselves, Members of another place do not seem to do much worse than we do and a great deal of it might well be left alone. I do not mind whether there is an hereditary principle or not, provided that there is an effective second Chamber.
  The hon. and learned Member for Ipswich has just come back. In his absence I have suggested that he should do some tense missionary work on his own Front Bench and I sincerely trust that he will. Basically, he is a lone Liberal voice in a slightly more extreme party. Basically, the party opposite does not want a second Chamber at all.
  Hon. Members: Hear, hear.
  Mr. Wise: I hear assent all round. They want single-Chamber government. Their next step would be single-party government if they had the chance. Given the time, practically every Socialist Party has eventually reached single-party government.
  Mr. Bence: Sweden?
  Mr. Wise: It will get there. The Russians started with two parties.
  Mr. Bence: No.
  Mr. Wise: Of course they did. There were the Bolsheviks and the Mensheviks and eventually the Bolsheviks abolished the Mensheviks and produced single-party government.
  Mr. S. Silverman: As Cromwell did.
  Mr. Wise: As Cromwell did. Cromwell was the equivalent of the left wing of his time.
  Mr. Bence: What was Henry VIII?
  Mr. Wise: An amiable monarch who had the habit of decapitating unnecessary agitators.
  I have been slightly led away from my main theme. I was making the point that the basic aim of the party opposite in dealing with the second Chamber is to weaken and not to strengthen it. That is why they are supporting the Bill which will allow a certain number of intelligent and ambitious men to leave

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  the Upper Chamber and offer themselves for election here. In other words, the Bill is to produce a drain of possibly the best of the second Chamber and. therefore, unquestionably weaken it.
  There are one or two points which will have to be put right in Committee—many of them were mentioned by the right hon. Member for Smethwick (Mr. Gordon Walker)—especially concerning the date on which the Bill will come into force. The right hon. Gentleman's argument on that was perfectly sound. It will be very difficult for persons who might wish to take advantage of the Bill to do so. They have, first, to find for themselves constituencies. They have to have time to get around and nurse those constituencies.
  The purport of the Bill as it now stands would be, with one exception which I will come to later, to postpone any possibility of these persons offering themselves for election to this Parliament at the next General Election. Their one hope would be a favourable by-election, or the election after that, so it is postponing this for much too long.
  I come for a moment to the question of the renunciation of titles. I think that this leads to a great deal of unnecessary complication. In spite of the fact that my right hon. and learned Friend the Attorney-General has studied this carefully, I do not believe that the Bill will not produce a great deal of confusion. If a peer opts to come to this House if he can get in, he divests himself and his wife of all titles, rights, offices, and so on, and I cannot see how, in that case, any of the courtesy titles can continue to be used by his children. In fact, as far as I can see, that must happen under the Bill, because they are not their titles. They are titles which have been renounced. The titles have been renounced by their father, and they are therefore deprived of them.
  Dr. Alan Glynn: The children might get their titles from the grandfather and not from the father. If the grandfather were a duke, they would automatically have courtesy titles, not through the father, but through the grandfather.
  Mr. Wise: We are assuming that the
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  father is a Member of the House of Lords. I do not see how he could have got there if, in fact, the title was to miss one generation and go to the grandchildren. I think that we are getting into rather deep water here.
  I do not think that the renunciation of courtesy titles by the father is quite fair. Certainly, Miss Mitford would point out that this would cause sinister mutterings in the hons. cupboard when the news broke. It should be enough that a peer wishing to come to this House should renounce for his lifetime the right to receive a writ of summons.
  We may find a curious anomaly if we insist on implementing the provisions of the Bill, in that a perfectly good viscount may come into this place as Mr. Smith, having once been Viscount Smith. Alongside him on these benches, or possibly on the benches opposite, there maybe a number of persons who are entitled to call themselves viscounts, marquesses, and so on, but who are not. They are merely using their fathers' titles. It would not make sense to have Mr. Smith who is a real viscount sitting here as Mr. Smith while others who have courtesy titles and are not real peers continue to use their titles.
  Also, this is to a certain extent removing some of the traditions of the House, and our system of address might start altering. I like our method of addressing someone as "my noble Friend", and so on, and I would be sorry to see it go. I know that hon. Gentlemen opposite have no respect for tradition and would like to see the remainder of our better traditions go, but I think that these traditions are worth maintaining.
  There is only one man whom this Bill can possibly benefit. He has worked very hard and meritoriously for it. In fact, he has a constituency which is being kept warm for him. He has never been regarded by his local constituency association as being anything other than their prospective candidate.
  Mr. C. Pannell: He is their Member.
  Mr. Wise: He cannot be regarded as their Member; that is nonsense, but he can be, and is, regarded as their prospective candidate. He is the only person who can derive great benefit from the Bill. He is the only one in that fortunate circumstance.

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  The Bill is far too limited in its scope and deals only with trivialities and not the major problem of producing a decent second Chamber which is a thing I have always desired and always will, because I think that there must be some form of chain on any legislature, however moderate. I think that this Bill is much more rightly described as the Stansgate Relief Bill rather than the Peerage Bill, and I do not thinik that I shall find myself supporting it at any stage of its proceedings.
  6.16 p.m.
  Mr. Charles Pannell: Like the hon. Member for Carlton (Sir K. Pickthorn), the hon. Member for Rugby (Mr. Wise) has given us a string of aphorisms that spring from muddle-headedness. The hon. Gentleman has not read the Joint Select Committee's Report. He could not have done, because if he had he would not have drooled on in the way that he did about courtesy titles. I refer the hon. Gentleman to page 9 of the Report which makes this point quite clear. It says that
  "the wife and descendants of a Peer who surrenders should not use the courtesy titles or enjoy the social precedence derived from such Peer, even in the cases where such wife and descendants had enjoyed these titles or precedence in the lifetime of a more remote ancestor before the surrender took place."
  Mr. Wise: That is what the Bill does not say.
  Mr. Pannell: The Report goes on to say that
  "the other relatives of a Peer who surrenders should retain the use of courtesy titles and enjoy the social precedence derived from an ancestor or collateral of such Peer."
  I do not know whether this is the first debate on this subject which the hon. Member for Rugby has attended. Perhaps I might give the example of the Stansgate peerage. Lady Stansgate, the widow of the previous holder of the title, still remains Lady Stansgate. The other son still remains the Hon. David, but Wedgwood Benn himself is no longer Lord Stansgate. He dropped the "Honourable" and became Mr. Anthony Wedgwood Benn, or Anthony Wedgwood Benn, Esq., and his four children do not have the title "Honourable" at all. I should have thought that that was clear.
  On a previous occasion it was suggested that I bad made a mistake in the case of Viscount Hinchingbrooke. If he comes
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  back here he becomes Mr. Montagu, but his wife, being a member of the Devonshire family, retains the courtesy title of Lady, which is derived from a more remote ancestor. I think that I have got that right. Curiously enough, that which is blazingly daylight clear to the hon. Gentleman's hon. Friend is not even dimly clear to the hon. Gentleman, but it would have been clear had he read this Report.
  The same applies to the noble Lord the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Viscount Lambton). Bearing in mind that he has a vested interest in this Bill, I am surprised that he did not read the Report itself.
  Mr. Wise: We are not discussing the Joint Committee's Report. We are discussing what is in the Bill, and it is that to which I take exception. I have read the Report.
  Mr. Pannell: When the Attorney-General replies he will say that what is in the Joint Committee's Report is enshrined in the language of the Bill. The right hon. and learned Gentleman can correct me now if he thinks otherwise.
  The Attorney-General: The Bill does not deal in any shape with courtesy titles, or with the recommendations of the Joint Committee in that respect. It takes the view that courtesy titles are not a matter of law, and does not, therefore, deal with them at all.
  Mr. Pannell: But it was still clearly understood here, because it was agreed earlier in the debate, that for the purpose of the records of the House, and for the purpose of Hansard, in respect of social occasions springing from membership of this House, including, presumably, invitations to Royal garden parties, such a person is to be "Mr." or "Mrs." as the case may be. Am I right?
  The Attorney-General The Attorney-General indicated assent.
  Mr. Pannell: The right hon. and learned Gentleman agrees with me.
  There are other considerations. I understand the value of a courtesy title. Anybody who has ever been the mayor of a borough and has seen the scramble for precedence on social occasions must know all about this. I am not limiting this to people who are "honourable"; questions such as whether the chairman

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  of a housing committee should take precedence over the chairman of a baths committee give rise to arguments that only people who have experience of municipal government can know. Let us not have any misunderstanding about this sort of filing.
  I am sure that the Attorney-General will agree that, as far as possible, the intention of the Joint Committee is enshrined in the Bill, in effect, in that such people receive no benefit at all. Personally, I am rather sad that our former colleague, Lord Hinchingbrooke—now the Earl of Sandwich—was not prepared to stay here as Mr. Montagu. We lost something when he went from the Commons. He is not the sort of man who derives character or nobility from his ancestors; he has character and nobility in his own person.
  The other day, in a most wounding speech, the right hon. Member for Flint, West (Mr. Birch) said, of another unfortunate person who has come to the notice of this House this week, that the fact that he was a Privy Councillor never made him any different from what he otherwise was, and the fact that he was a Secretary of State never made him any different. It is the individual personality of a man that causes us to honour him. Fundamentally, titles do not make any difference. To suggest that a man is rather a better man if he has a title is absolute snobbery, and the sooner we end it the better.
  There is great point in what my right hon. Friend said, namely, that we are conferring on any number of people a great honour in allowing them to be commoners.
  Mr. W. A. Wilkins: The hon. Member for Rugby (Mr. Wise) does not think so.
  Mr. Pannell: He probably does not; his name is a misnomer.
  The curious thing is that we have had this gibe at Mr. Wedgwood Benn. I cannot repeat too often that but for him there would have been no Bill of this sort. It is an undoubted fact that this Bill would have been a Wedgwood Benn enabling Bill, but for one reason. I know that the hon. Member for Torquay (Mr. F. M. Bennett) will agree with me about this. If we look at Appendix 18 in the
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  Committee's Report—the memorandum by Lord Hailsham—we find that it was a cry from the heart. In that document he puts forward the plea that people like him, who, for reasons of public duty as they saw it, accepted service in the House of Lords, should not be denied the advantages given to people who refuse the writ of summons.
  That argument was carried by one vote, and immediately it was this Bill ceased to be a Wedgwood Benn enabling Bill, because it allowed Lord Hailsham to come back here, and also every other peer who has ever gone to the other place, except peers of first creation and life peers. It is, therefore, a complete travesty of the facts to suggest that this is now a Wedgwood Benn enabling Bill. There can be no argument about this.
  I have just been reading the life of the late Lord Pethick-Lawrence. His biographer refers to the fact that when the fight for women's suffrage fell in, the legislation on the Floor of this House evoked hardly any interest at all; the battle had been won. The backwoodsmen of the time dared not raise their voices any more. Where are the backwoodsmen today? Even the hon. Member for Carlton (Sir K. Pickthorn) sounds reasonably progressive.
  The hon. Member for Rugby suggested that Mr. Wedgwood Benn had some advantage over others, and said that he had kept his seat warm. He did not keep his seat warm; the electors of Bristol kept it warm. Those electors, not confined to the Labour Party, claim that Anthony Wedgwood Benn was their returned Member, and that he still is. Certainly, the hon. Member who was returned on a minority vote, and is not in the Chamber today, cannot be considered to be the returned Member.
  I agree with those who say that the Bill merely scratches the surface. I am in favour of single-Chamber government. On the other hand, my long experience in political life—forty years—has taught me to take what I can when I can. I am always suspicious of those people who despise small advantages, won on a narrow front, having the idea that something broad is required, as though the social revolution is just round the corner. At the age of 16 I believed that it was, but I believe it no longer.

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  Another point made by the hon. Member for Carlton was that the Opposition Whips moved for the Writ for Bristol, South-East. In view of Mr. Speaker's Ruling, they could do no other. They moved for the Writ—with what result? The result was that the electors of Bristol were tested on this very point. What was their answer? It was a more resounding victory for us—or a more resounding defeat for the Government—even than Orpington. It was one of the most spectacular election results that we have had, despite the fact that the Government sent the ex-Attorney-General there to tell the people what the constitutional position was. He told them that if they voted for Wedgwood Benn they were throwing their vote away. Well, they threw their vote away—to what purpose? They take their share in the victory consummated here today. We are the most mature elected democracy in the world, and the electors of Bristol, South-East were not as silly as hon. Members opposite.
  I shall vote in this House in the same way as I did on the Select Committee, by which I mean that I shall support the amendment for the drowning of peerages as against renunciation for a lifetime, surrender for a lifetime, or disclaimer for a lifetime. The argument that a man is somehow disfranchising his successors is an odd one, bearing in mind that all sorts of men can take on the liability of life peerages and condemn their sons. If a man can take on a peerage, as has been done in the past, which has been laid on his ancestor, he should be able to renounce it in the same way. I am glad that the hon. Member for Carlton came down with us on that question.
  Do not let us imagine that all peerages are concerned with the wish to remain in this House. I know of a man who can go into the House of Lords, but who was told by his employer, "Make up your mind whether you want to go to that place as a peer or work in my office". He obviously could not work in that office, and he finds his peerage a social liability.
  Another question concerns Lord Pakenham. I must make my position clear on this. I am against peerages, but presumably peers of first creation and life peers are not against peerages. They have accepted them for their own lifetime. If one is a member of a Select
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  Committee and is attempting to get a reasonable package deal, one enters into certain commitments—not formal, but moral and mental commitments—in order to reach an understanding of the "give-and-take" sort.
  Broadly speaking, hon. Members opposite did not like the Hailsham amendment. They were defeated on it, as we were defeated on the drowning issue. We can thrash these matters out in the House. But it seems to me reasonable that any man who says, "I will go into the House of Lords", has opted for his lifetime, and I cannot be bothered with it any further.
  Lord Pakenham accepted an office under the Labour Government which involved his going into the House of Lords. In effect, he got the title. He considered that inexorably the Earldom of Long ford would fall to him. On the other hand, he had taken a decision about another title. I speak as an individual from the back benches—I can speak only for myself—when I say that to take one attitude on the Select Committee and then to take another in the House would not be a sensible position for me.
  The position was exactly the same when, as members of the Select Committee, we argued about the Scottish peerage. There are certain principles which I think have priority, and one for which I have struggled is the equality of women. I believe that women should have equality with men and should have the liability of sitting in the House of Lords if that is also a male liability. I believe that a society is healthy and civilised only to the extent to which it recognises in 1963 the complete equality of women, and I do not apologise for sending women even to that place.
  Equally, with the Scottish peerage we have the mediaeval hang-over that certain people are elected. It seemed better to bring them all into line, bearing in mind that this Scottish creation involves no more than the number of peerages often created by a Conservative Prime Minister in one year. In any case, many of them may decide not to come.
  The next point concerns the date of the application of the Bill. I always felt—perhaps the Attorney-General will seek to disabuse my mind—that the

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  reason that the Bill was drafted to defer its application until after the dissolution was that the Government did not want another by-election in Bristol, South-East. I know what will happen in Leeds tomorrow. Did hon. Members see the picture in the Daily Mail today, of four people standing on a Conservative platform, including the Minister of Health, and only two people in the audience? Despite all the publicity last week and the reference to a Minister who would bring down the Government, only two people turned up at the meeting in Leeds. I will tell hon. Members why. It is because the massive shadow of Gaitskell hangs over South Leeds.
  Sir Harmar Nicholls: It is because the big fight was on the radio.
  Mr. Pannell: It had nothing to do with that. The massive shadow of Gaitskell hangs over South Leeds and the massive shadow of Profumo hangs over the Conservative Party—and they are very different images. Only two people were present at that meeting to hear a potential Prime Minister.
  If the Bill takes effect from the date of the Royal Assent it will give the advantages about which the hon. Member for Rugby spoke, enabling people to get into seats. All seats are marginal for the Conservatives. It might even allow Lord Hailsham to be adopted for Stratford-on-Avon, although I do not know about that. But if the election is too long delayed, it will allow another by-election in Bristol, South-East. Even considering the present majority in Stratford-on-Avon. I know that in both cases the result will be very unsatisfactory for hon. Members opposite.
  6.35 p.m.
  Mr. F. M. Bennett: With the exception of the last point, which I regard as a fair debating point and which, if we did not all rely on your endless wisdom, Mr. Speaker, I might have suggested was out of order in the context of the Bill, there was much in the robust remarks of the hon. Member for Leeds, West (Mr. C. Pannell) with which I have considerable sympathy.
  I know that the hon. Member will agree with me that we have to view the Bill and the Report in the light of the maximum degree of agreement which could
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  be reached not only between two or three parties, but between a substantial number of people of widely differing views within their parties. He referred to a package deal, and I hope that he did not mean that there was any question of a package deal over the Hailsham amendment as far as I am concerned. I voted against the Hailsham amendment.
  My objection to the Hailsham amendment was not on any of the grounds to which he referred. It was based rather on his own argument about Lord Pakenham. I believe, and some of my hon. Friends believe, that inheriting a peerage is an involuntary act for which it is unfair to penalise a man, but that accepting the writ and sitting in the House of Lords is a voluntary act, and that, once it has been taken, the same rule applies as to those who take a peerage in the first instance. These are the arguments which I adduced. If one says that it is hard luck to have legislation which debars them, anything which happened in the past is hard luck, and this House, generally speaking, has set its mind against retrospective legislation.
  That is the only critical comment which I have to offer on what the hon. Member said. Naturally, he and I will find ourselves on different sides, as in the Committee, when we consider the question of the permanent or temporary submerging of peerages.
  One of the difficulties of catching your eye, Mr. Speaker, is that one almost invariably fails to catch it when one particularly wishes to follow an hon. Member. I should have liked to follow the hon. Member for Orpington (Mr. Lubbock) a little earlier. He, with the rest of the Liberal Party, has now left the Chamber. In his challenging remark she seemed to be trying to be more radical than the ultra-radical on the benches opposite.
  The hon. Member made a number of surprising statements. He complained about the number of peers there are in this country and reproved the Conservative Party for this fact. There has already been a reference to an earlier effort by the Liberal Party to increase the number of peers, and I should like to refer to a more recent example of an extremely distinguished Liberal Member who played his part in substantially increasing the number of hereditary

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  peers, for reasons other than strictly political reasons.
  The hon. Member for Orpington also said that if we were to have a second Chamber it was time that we had an entirely elected Chamber, as was the practice of every democratic country throughout the world. I believe that he is a member of the Liberal International, together with members of the Liberal Party of Canada, where they have an Upper House which is completely appointed. His Liberal colleagues in the Canadian Upper House were all appointed. Moreover, there is a ceiling of 100 members and one can never rectify the balance except through death when another Government gets in. One of the efforts of the late Mackenzie King, before he vacated office, was to get no fewer than 96 Liberals appointed life members of their Upper House—a number which has only now been reduced to 82. So, the next time the hon. Member for Orpington attends a meeting of the Liberal International, I hope that he will reprove his Canadian friends for being the only other undemocratic country in the world in addition to our own.
  There is only one reason of substance why I have risen to address the House today. I feel that probably on these occasions those who have been members of the Select Committee should give a chance to other hon. Members to take part. Yet I have felt justified in asking for a few minutes' tolerance today because, in the lonely company of one other member of the Committee, a Labour peer, I suggested that there was a third alternative to drowning of peerages and giving them up for life. This has been mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Peterborough (Sir Harmar Nicholls). I apologise for not being present when he made his speech.
  I suggested that the same principles which apply over the abdication of monarchs should apply in this case. If one wants to contract out of responsibilities which go with a title one should contract out altogether. If one has sons after that it is just too bad. I regard it as just too bad in relation to a peerage as for a monarch who abdicates, and for his children after the date of abdication. [Hon. Members: "Hear, hear."] If the muted sounds of
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  applause from my hon. Friends indicate support for what I suggested in the lonely company of one member of the Committee, I hope to have support when I seek to rectify this matter in Committee on the Bill.
  There is one considerable advantage on the grounds of simplicity that all these complications about courtesy titles—people willing themselves "Mr. Earl", or "Mr. Duke"—because there is no law against calling oneself what one wishes—then disappear. We would get out of the complications about courtesy titles and all else if we said that if a man wanted to become a commoner he could do so as long as he fell out of the line of succession and after he and his subsequent sons would have to take into account his prior decision to have become a commoner. I advanced this argument at much greater length in Committee, but was not able to get it adopted. I refer to it today only because I am still an unrepentant supporter of a system which, I think, would have greater simplicity and be viewed with much more respect in this House, the country, and the other place.
  6.43 p.m.
  Mr. Malcolm MacPherson: I agree very strongly with one point made by the hon. Member for Torquay (Mr. F. M. Bennett). That is on the question of names, courtesy titles and so on. He did not put it as widely as I would have put it. The Bill is about our two Chambers and more about the House of Commons than another place. I shall come back to what the hon. Member said a little later. This is essentially a very minor and trifling small Bill so far as it applies to another place. Perhaps in its immediate application to us—because it is concerned with one or two, in their different ways, distinguished personalities—it is more important.
  Although it is not a sort of Wedgwood Benn Bill, it is in a sense almost a Private Member's Bill, a limited Measure arising from the efforts of one individual who, as has been said by someone, pushed the side door open a little. Like one or two other hon. Members, I feel very disappointed that there has been just this small push to the side door. I strongly sympathise with those who feel that peerages ought not simply to be disclaimed for a lifetime, but

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  drowned if they are disclaimed. That seems sensible and would be no loss to our social organisation. It seems that during the course of a not very long time we shall have to tackle the question whether we are to maintain the hereditary principle in our Legislature at all. I cannot see that we can maintain it for very long.
  Those on this side of the House have no sympathy for it, but perhaps it is a stronger argument than simply putting a party point of view to try to figure what the younger generation are thinking about it I cannot find any sort of sympathy at all among those who have reached maturity after the end of the war with anything which would suggest continuing hereditary qualification for membership of a second Chamber. I imagine that as the post-war generation begins to take positions of greater maturity and authority the hereditary element will be simply wiped out.
  Mr. Robert Cooke: How would we get the younger generation into a reformed second Chamber? How could anyone under 25 go there except by the hereditary principle?
  Mr. MacPherson: It depends on the second Chamber. If we have a second Chamber one gets into it in prescribed ways. If the prescribed ways include ways which do not insist on an age limit of 25 there is nothing to bar someone joining at a lower age. If he looks around at other second Chambers the hon. Member will find that there are some which have comparatively young members. This, in any case, seems not a particularly important element in the matter.
  One caveat I put as, I suppose, a minor point. I am not altogether satisfied on the question of limiting the time. I suppose the argument is that if one does not decide to disclaim within a certain period one is making a positive decision to remain a peer in the House of Lords. I do not feel that that is altogether realistic. I should have thought the starting point should be membership of the peerage and the one positive action should be the disclaimer. I should be inclined to say that there should be the one action and that a person cannot chop and change.
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  The decision should be considered at the beginning of the period, or the operation of the Act is a passive one. If the person concerned does not do anything about it at 25, but decides at a ripe old age to drop out in October, I see no reason why we should not accept that. It would simply mean one less hereditary peer, one slightly increased breach in the body of hereditary folk in the House of Lords. The alternative argument seems a little over-logical. I do not think that this is a matter on which one can be particularly logical.
  My chief criticism of the Bill is not so much on the score of its size, or its particular provisions, but on the direction of thought it seems to represent. There have been a long series of attempts to legislate on the basis simply of removing from a peer his right to sit in another place. This seems to be what we should be doing. I cannot see why the other elements matter. It does not seem that titles, names, courtesy titles and all that sort of business have any real relevance. What we are concerned about is simply what should be the qualifications for membership of this Chamber and of another place. I cannot attach any importance or significance to whether a man is called Lord So-and-so or the Honourable So-and-so, or whatever it may be.
  I thought even the financial arguments adduced by the Liberal Party were a little over-played. It may be that a number of peers manage to get a few directorships because they are peers. I wonder how many get them simply because they are peers. I imagine that it would be marginal.
  Mr. F. M. Bennett: I agree with the hon. Member. I can assure him, after a small acquaintance with the City, that companies which have peers as directors simply grade them in the graph not in accordance with repute, but lack of repute.
  Mr. MacPherson: I am grateful for that support. But, with it or without it, I say that this must be a marginal matter. We have a large number of peers and I do not imagine that many of them, even those who have professional skill in industry, commerce and finance, earn their living in this kind of way.

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  In any case, as the hon. Member for Torquay said, a person can call himself what he likes. There are people whose peerages were "drowned"—if that be the correct trans-Channel expression—at the time of the French Revolution, but who still used their titles. There will always be people who like to call themselves by a particular name, and there is no reason why they cannot call themselves by a name which suggests a title, even if their father had no title. "Mr. Johnson" down the road may like to call himself "Lord Smith" starting from tomorrow.
  I do not think that anyone can stop him from doing so. If the Attorney-General has any suggestion to make that there is some means by which he can be stopped from doing so, perhaps the right hon. and learned Gentleman would make the position clear. But so far as I understand it, in this country we are completely free and easy about what we call ourselves, provided that people do not use their name in order to "bilk" the tradesman.
  A young friend of mine used to argue that it would be much more sensible if human beings called themselves by numbers. There might be some complication about signing cheques. But people might call themselves "No. 007"—like James Bond—or "XYZ123", or something like that. I cannot understand why this legislative body should make a fuss about that kind of thing. Surely we should be saying that what matters is whether a person has a right, that we can recognise as a proper right, and a qualification to sit in one Chamber or the other, not whether they want to call themselves this, that and the next thing. Those are trifling matters.
  Even the argument that to continue them produces some snobbishness—I recognise that such an argument has some substance—becomes comparatively weaker in these days. Members of the post-war younger generation will not be "bulldozed" for very long by that kind of attitude. They will judge a man more and more on his face value and less and less upon the value of his name.
  Reference has been made to the pro-
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  posals about Scottish peers and, again, this seems to me very much a marginal matter. If all the Scottish peers took their seats, the House of Lords would be increased, more or less, only by a capful of peers. I do not see that that will make any difference one way or the other. It is just as convenient to treat Scottish peers in the same way as peers of the United Kingdom are treated. What would be lost is what I might call a very picturesque ceremony which takes place at the beginning of every Parliament at the election of those who are elected Scottish peers. I always regret the disappearance of a picturesque ceremony. The number of people who have seen it is limited, I have never seen it.
  I believe that its disappearance would be a trifle compared with the actual membership of the other place. I do not think that this will in any way strengthen the other place and I say that without intending any disrespect to individuals who may happen to join those in another place as a result of it. This particular little group will not make any serious difference to the second Chamber, whether we regard it as an hereditary, a legislative, a working or any other kind of Chamber.
  What is needed in the Scottish peerage is a much more liberal infusion of life peers. I have had occasion just lately to note the reason for that. I promoted a Private Member's Bill, which is now in another place, and when I came to look at the number of active peers—with one or two extremely distinguished and competent people among them—Ifound that the range of choice among those from whom I could find a sponsor for my Bill was very limited. It seems to me that the infusion of additional life in the way of Scottish life peerages would be a much more useful process than this is.
  The question of life peerages and hereditary peerages brings up the whole question of another second Chamber. This has been a very odd Second Reading debate in that it has, it seems to me, enabled some matters to be dealt with—I dealt with some myself—which might be considered odd matters to be discussed today. But we have managed to introduce broad considerations of policy regarding a second Chamber. I am of

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  the opinion that we cannot continue for much longer to work with one Chamber. We are the "odd country out" among the Commonwealth countries, and among other countries of our own range of population, in that respect. It seems to me that we are not in a position in which we can carry on in that way in a practical fashion.
  There are three alternatives as I see it. Before I continue, may I emphasise what is the position? I refer to what I have heard because I have not myself seen the Annual Report of the Registrar General. But I am told that he forecasts that the population of this country will, in a comparatively short time, rise to 70 million or 75 million. In my view, we cannot caŕryon with one Chamber and provide the debating facilities at this level which would be needed by a population of that size.
  We know that even now we cannot provide proper facilities for a population of 50 million with only one Chamber. We need one of three things. Either we should consider increasing, revising, and changing the nature of the Committee system in this Chamber as a whole, or we should develop a second Chamber. We should not necessarily give it powers. But at least it should have the facility to debate questions of public importance. Thirdly—this alternative seems to me the most attractive—we should do as other Commonwealth countries and countries of our size have done, and that is establish minor Chambers in suitable parts of the country.
  There could be a Parliament for London, a Parliament for Wales—
  Mr. Speaker: Order. The hon. Member's third alternative is also the furthest from possible order.
  Mr. Malcolm MacPherson: I accept your rebuke, Mr. Speaker. I wondered how some of the earlier substance got into the debate, but I realise that I was going fairly far a field in discussing that matter.
  My point is that in this Parliament and in this nation we are not in such a situation that we can say that we will limit ourselves to one Chamber and continue in that way. We have a wonderful Chamber, but its tasks today are so numerous that we shall have to take
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  some additional steps regarding its continuing life. Although I may prefer one alternative, which I cannot discuss, I do not think that my preference is one that history is likely to follow, because it would need a new initiative. The building of a second Chamber is the kind of thing which we tend to do without starting something new. There is a second Chamber and we should be intent on building it up to what it ought to be. That, probably, is the way in which we shall go and, therefore, the future of the second Chamber, its immediate future, is of considerable importance.
  I should like to see immediately—I am not now talking of the long-term ideal—two things get under way with a great deal more strength. One is the cutting out of the hereditary element by little bits or by bigger bits—preferably bigger bits and, even better, by wholesale methods—and the other is the development of the life peerage system. If we follow these two lines in respect of the second Chamber, I believe that we shall be proceeding in the right direction.
  6.59 p.m.
  Dr. Alan Glyn: This Bill represents a small link in a large chain of statutory changes in the powers and composition of the House of Lords which were started in 1911. We must admit that it is primarily a Bill which removes certain disabilities to certain people. But it is a Measure into which we have managed to incorporate one or two useful alterations in the composition of the House of Lords.
  This debate illustrates the fundamental difference between the two sides of this House and the approach of hon. Members to this problem. It is fair to say that the majority of Members who sit on this side of the House are in favour of; bicameral system, whereas the majority of Members on the other side would favour single-Chamber government.
  I am certainly a protagonist of the bicameral system. When I look at the Bill, I ask myself; how much good or how much harm does it do to the present two-Chamber system of Government? One of the criticisms which was made in an earlier debate, to which I subscribed at the time, was that by allowing people to surrender or give up, or whatever expression we choose to use, their peerages, it

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  could tend to drain the Upper House of a certain amount of young talent.
  People who had greater ambition than to remain in the Lords might tend to come here. I believe that the number of people who will, in fact, do this will be so small that it is not a factor which ought to be considered. It is a formidable thing for a man to be faced with the decision of renouncing a safe seat in another place for the possibility, however good it may be at the time, of a seat in this Chamber. I believe that many Members of the Upper Chamber would think very carefully before they surrendered a very great right in the hope of gaining admission to this Chamber.
  I share the view of many other Members of Parliament that one of the disadvantages of the Bill is that perhaps it does not go far enough. I am also well aware that the contents of the Bill are the art of the possible. We have achieved the maximum that we could at this juncture. I am not against the hereditary principle. I believe that the public image of the Lords as it is at the moment, in the minds of the public, whether one likes to admit it or not, is increasing.
  I hope that in years to come the reform of the other place, which is something which takes centuries and not decades, will, with that ability which we in this country have of moulding the old and the new together, take a form which I have suggested to the House before. I refer to a half-hereditary and half-elected system, the hereditary peers sitting amongst themselves and electing those whom they wish to sit in the Lords. This is perhaps a long-term dream, but I believe that we shall eventually come to this.
  It is a suggestion which was made about forty years ago by Lord Salisbury and the late Earl of Clarendon. It is a solution which may command agreement between the two protagonists, one against the hereditary principle and one for it. If we could mould the two together, we might be able, as we have done in the Bill, to meet the wishes of both sides of the House and the wishes of another place.
  The question whether a man should renounce for life or for ever is not of so much consequence. What we are trying to do is to remove an anomaly. As the hon. Member for Stirling and
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  Falkirk Burghs (Mr. Malcolm MacPherson) said, we are trying to achieve a Measure which allows a particular category of people to return to this House. I do not think that it is important whether they renounce for life or for ever.
  The question of the Irish peers was raised earlier. I think that here the consensus of opinion would be that, unfortunate as it may be, there has been such a time lag that it would be difficult to resuscitate the connection, whether good or bad, between the Irish peerage and the House of Lords. The easiest way to do it would be by a Measure which transposed the name of Lord Chancellor of Ireland to Lord Chancellor of England so that the machinery could be started up again. I understand that a case is coming before the House of Lords, a plea for something of that nature to take place, although I am not in a position to know the details of the appeal.
  I think that we have a strong second Chamber, and it is important for the country. During the debate much has been said by some hon. Members about life peers and peers of first creation. If a man is offered a peerage knowing what the consequences are for his life, it is only right that he should not be given the chance of renouncing that peerage. In one case I think that it is fair to say that the person concerned was induced to take the peerage under the guise that at a later date he would automatically inherit a hereditary peerage. I refer to the case of Lord Pakenham. This is a difficult case, but I do not think that it would be right to cater for him in the Bill.
  There are a number of considerations which a Member of Parliament weighs when he accepts a peerage. There may be a hundred reasons. One reason in this case possibly was that he would at a later date, anyway, succeed to a peerage. I should have thought that this was a factor. I do not think that his case would be sufficiently strong to allow him to return to this House, otherwise we would open the gate wide for that to happen with life peers.
  I welcome the inclusion in the Bill of the provision which will allow peeresses in their own right to take their seats. This is an anomaly which I have always

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  considered to be very unfair. I also welcome the provision in relation to Scottish peers.
  I want to put one or two points to my right hon. and learned Friend. One of the difficulties of renunciation would be in the case of the Arundel title which is, as I understand it, the only territorial title in the country. If this title were to be renounced, it might well be that the holder in years to come could by selling the castle create a title. I believe that this is the only case in the Constitution. My right hon. and learned Friend, when he winds up the debate, may agree that this could happen, although I must admit that it is not of real importance on the Bill.
  Another point I want to make was well brought out by the hon. Member for Stirling and Falkirk Burghs. We cannot possibly legislate for courtesy titles, even though they have been discussed in earlier debates, because there is no legislation and no legal justification for their use. I think that I am correct in saying that in legal documents Lord Tom Noddy is described as "Mr. Noddy, commonly known as Lord Tom Noddy". There is no legal justification for the title. Such titles spring from the Crown. Indeed, they can be given by the Crown at will, I understand.
  In this case perhaps the right thing to do is to ask for some guidance and ruling from the originator of all honours and titles, the Sovereign. We could ask for some guidance on the rules which should be applied to anybody renouncing his title so as to enter the House of Commons. This would be the easiest way of dealing with the matter.
  Much as I welcome the provisions of the Bill—not so much because of the provision relating to renunciation and the ability of former peers to come to this House as because the Bill allows Scottish peers, and peeresses in their own right, to sit—I cannot for the life of me understand why it should not come into force when the Bill receives the Royal Assent. There seems to be no logical reason.
  This point has been raised by a number of hon. Members, and when my right hon. and learned Friend winds up I hope that he will give us some valid reason
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  why the Government have deliberately made it the dissolution of Parliament. It would be far fairer and wiser to allow the Bill to come into force when it receives the Royal Assent, which I hope it will. At that time let time run for these people. They can then decide what they want to do. Give them a chance before the next General Election to think about it and, as hon. Members opposite have said, to nurse their seats or anything else. We serve no valid purpose whatever by delaying the time at which this Bill will become effective.
  7.10 p.m.
  Mr. Sydney Silverman: I want to make one reference to the speech of the hon. Member for Clapham (Dr. Alan Glyn). It is on his last point. Whether the effective operation of the Bill should commence now, as it were, or only after the dissolution of this Parliament might depend on how long its dissolution is to be deferred. I would have preferred to treat the Government's decision to make it operative only after this Parliament had been dissolved, as an earnest of their intention to give the electorate of this country an early opportunity of electing a new Parliament, but, if that is not so, and this Parliament is to drag on in this half-hearted, rather cynical way for its full legal term, then I should have thought it better, if we are to have the Bill at all, to have it as soon as it can be enacted.
  By an unforeseen and unfortunate chance, which I am sure that the hon. Member for Rugby (Mr. Wise) regrets even more than I do, I happen to agree with his whole attitude to the Bill. I apologise for not having heard all the speeches in this debate but I have heard a good many of them, and very interesting and, in some cases, fascinating speeches they have been. By tradition of the House the limits of debate on Second Reading are rather wide, and it is far from me to suggest that they ought to be narrower, so there is no question about not being in order, because all the matters that we have been discussing lie in the background of the Bill. Although not in any sense not in order, a great many of the more interesting things discussed had little, if any, reference to the contents of the Bill.
  The Bill does not, as I understand it, raise at any point the question whether we should have two-Chamber or single-

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  Chamber government. No doubt this is all in our minds. No doubt this is the question, on whichever side we are, that the majority of the Members of the House of Commons would like to have decided and removed from future political controversy, either as between the parties or across the parties. This Bill does not decide that. The Bill has nothing to do with it. One can be for the Bill or against it, for this Clause or against it on Committee stage. Report and Third Reading and now on Second Reading, whatever one believes about the question whether we ought to have single-Chamber or two-Chamber government. So although the speeches were interesting, they do not do us much good.
  The same is true of the other important principle involved. On the assumption that we have two Chambers, ought one of them to consist of people who are members of it by hereditary right? That is not involved here at all.
  This is a little Bill—a petty Bill. I shall not vote against it because it is not worth voting against. It does not do anything that is important enough to vote for or against. I should be very glad, if I am fortunate enough to catch your eye, Mr. Speaker, to state my views on either of those principles at a time when Parliament is ready to decide anything about them, one or the other. But at this moment to vote in the context of this Bill in the self-delusion that somehow or other we are making a contribution to the great constitutional questions of the hereditary principle or two-Chamber government—I cannot follow that at all.
  I should at this stage have liked to say something to my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, West (Mr. C. Pannell), who has taken so prominent and useful a part in the arguments and discussions that we have had about these matters. I, too, am just a year or two too old to be very patient of the all-or-nothing boys. One prefers all rather than some, some rather than less, no doubt. If I could persuade myself that the Bill was really a half-way house or a quarter-way house or even one solid inch along the road, I certainly would not cast cold water or a wet blanket on it merely because it did not go far enough. It seems to me that in so far as it impinges at all on either question—the question of
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  single-Chamber government or of the hereditary principle—it is not a step forward, or at least only a very small step. For what it is worth, it is a step backwards.
  My hon. Friend said that this was not a Wedgwood Benn enabling Bill. I gathered from the rest of his speech that he will do his best in Committee to make it just that. Let me say at once that I have no objection. If this really were a Wedgwood Benn enabling Bill and nothing else, I think that it would be a much better Bill. It would, at any rate, do one really limited thing—remove one single unit of injustice even if it did not really affect the principle. But it does not as it stands on Second Reading. I do not know what it may be like on Third Reading, but at the moment it does not do that. Why not? First it begins by giving a statutory sanction, I think for the first time since the Act of Settlement, to the hereditary principle. It presupposes that we ought to create special privileges in order to remove, if they choose but not otherwise, disabilities which fall upon people by reason of their parenthood.
  It may be asked what is wrong with that. It may be asked, "Is not that a step forward to what you want? Does it not go at any rate a little way and is it not nonsense to say that it does any harm in the opinion of those who would like to see the hereditary principle abolished or diminished?" I think not, and I invite the House to look at it and see.
  If a man who has an option under the Bill to say, "No, whatever my father may have decided, or whatever obligations he might have been content to accept when my grandfather died, I for my part renounce them and renounce them for ever", then it could be fairly said that we had gone a little but a significant way towards reducing the operation of the hereditary principle. Perhaps in Committee this may be done. I doubt it, but if it is done, then to that extent the point which I am making will cease to have validity. This afternoon, however, we can consider the Bill on Second Reading only as it now stands, and as it now stands no one who has this option of privilege conferred upon him by the Bill is called upon to

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  renounce anything whatever as far as the hereditary principle is concerned.
  This is why the Bill quite rightly calls it not a surrender but a disclaimer—a disclaimer for himself without prejudice to the hereditary principle, the effects of which he is disclaiming for himself. When he dies, his son, by the operation of the hereditary principle, jumping the gap of the disclaimer, becomes again a member of the second Chamber on the hereditary principle.
  I cannot see that, in objecting to that, I lay myself open to the criticism which my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, West offered, that I was casting away—he did not put it this way but it is the point—half a loaf because I did not get the whole. I am not. The Bill does not contain a half, a quarter, or a slice of a loaf or even a crumb as far as the hereditary principle is concerned.
  It seems to me, therefore, that in order to remove a disability in the case of a very limited number of individuals, and perhaps only one, we have to prescribe once again for the first time for several hundred years in our legislation and constitution the acceptance and reaffirmation of the hereditary principle. This seems to me to be far too high a price for the only redeeming and compensatory feature of the Bill, namely, that it will enable my friend Mr. Anthony Wedgwood Benn to return to the House of Commons.
  What does the Bill do about a second Chamber? It reaffirms that too. It is based on the assumption that a second Chamber will go on for at least two generations, for the generation of the man who disclaims for himself so that his children shall not be prejudiced or embarrassed by his choice and will enable them on his death to be members of a second hereditary Chamber of which he might have been a member but for his disclaimer. It does not seem to me, therefore, that the Bill is worth all the time and all the heavy learning and all the profound philosophical disquisitions spent on it in this debate.
  Why cannot the House of Commons take its courage in its hands and face the realities of the political situation here? No one thinks that if we did it now we would be doing it for all
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  time. Somebody spoke about 1924 and statements about a belated amendment. In 1924 it was already belated by 30 years. The 1911 Parliament Act was a temporary Measure to tide over particular political difficulties. In those days life peers could not be created. Therefore, the Sovereign's consent had to be obtained in advance to intimidate the Opposition of the day by creating enough hereditary peers to enable the majority of the House of Commons, representing the majority of the people of the country, to have its way.
  I hope that the House will forgive me for any apparent unseemliness, but in those days the story was told of a political hostess who when asked if she believed in a second Chamber replied, "Of course I do. My husband is a Liberal peer." That, I think, had as much relevance to the argument as all we have heard today about the limited purpose of the Bill.
  Why cannot we take our courage in our hands and deal with a problem, whichever way we decide it, which by common consent has been overdue for decision for more than half a century? I know that the House is anxious, and very likely ready, to come to a decision. In view of the fact that apparently nobody, not even myself, will oppose the Bill, there is no reason why the House should not come to a decision. But there are important constitutional issues here and I hope that the House will forgive me for having kept it so long from the decision which it wants to take.
  7.27 p.m.
  Mr. Cyril Bence: I am concerned about certain things in the Bill and I hope that my hon. Friend the Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman) will forgive me if I do not follow him in his various arguments.
  I accept the principle of one-Chamber government. I object to an hereditary institution playing a part in the legislation of the country, I recognise that all of us inherit qualities from our parents, that there is a biological inheritance running through every family, but it does not follow that if a man who has made a great contribution to society by some activity or other has a peerage conferred upon him, genera-

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  tions later someone should be able to play a part in our Legislature because his ancestor was a famous soldier, engineer, or scientist.
  Mr. Wise: Does the hon. Member continue his objection to bicameral government if it is not hereditary?
  Mr. Bence: I think that this is part of the evolutionary process of a democratic society. It would be out of order to discuss the matter now, but it might well be that something would evolve out of the House of Commons, and this House needs reforming. It is urgent that in our Parliamentary institutions and in that reform we should discard the inherited second Chamber and out of our deliberations have reform, by creating either permanent committees or an institution which is part of this House for the democratic government of the country.
  I am concerned about the point made by several hon. Members that a peer, or a nobleman who is the son of a peer, may sit in this Chamber for twenty years and maybe for that period a very awkward Member of the House of Commons. I believe that democracy and the Parliamentary institution is strengthened if we have in the House of Commons quite a lot of awkward Members, awkward from the point of view of the Establishment—of either side. I am not referring to my hon. Friend the Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Emrys Hughes).
  Mr. Emrys Hughes: My hon. Friend is not proposing to punish them by sending them to another place?
  Mr. Bence: No. I am leading up to a point which is the converse of that.
  Hon. Gentlemen on the other side have talked of their wish that dynamic personalities in the other place or liable to go to the other place will be retained here. I can visualise in the present Chamber many noble gentlemen who perhaps some time will go to the other place. There are many here who would welcome the speeding of the day on which they go there and who would not wish to come back.
  I have been here long enough to know the difficulties in our Parliamentary
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  system, the difficulties with the parties and the Establishment, and to know how difficult it is for those who have very strong convictions of their own, and who are dynamic personalities, and who refuse to be slavish servants of the party machines. I am not one of those people myself. I generally support the party of which I am a member. I have generally done so, although every one of us, I suppose, has his moments when he disagrees with his party.
  I am convinced that the Bill, as my hon. Friend has said, is a petty little thing, because I really do not think that the Establishment—particularly that Establishment—will make it at all smooth or easier for anyone who is an individual and the son of a peer, or is in the other place, to stay or to come here through being elected for a constituency. I am absolutely certain that pressure will be put on to try to stop awkward, dynamic people from getting in here. Dynamic people are not always so welcome as some of us tend to think—not always so welcome in this institution or in many another institution.
  There is one thing I do not understand. I understood that the House of Lords was abolished by Cromwell by Act of Parliament and that that Act has never been repealed. I may be wrong about that. I understand that that is why it is out of order to refer in this Chamber to the House of Lords; we must refer to it as the "other place".
  Mr. Speaker: It is out of order on this Bill to refer to that matter altogether.
  Mr. Bence: I raise this because I have always understood that the term "House of Lords" must not be used, but here we have a Bill in which the House of Lords is referred to—
  Mr. Speaker: It is a long way beyond the scope of this debate to talk about abolition either in the past or the present of the House of Lords.
  Mr. Bence: Well, Mr. Speaker, Clause 1(2) says:
  "in respect of a peerage by a person who has applied for a writ of summons to attend the House of Lords…".
  Such a person may be a Member of this House, and maybe the heir to a peer, and liable to be called to another place.

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  When this Bill becomes law he will be able to submit himself to be nominated as a candidate in a Parliamentary constituency, and go before a selection conference in the constituency. While he is going through that nomination, even when he has been selected, he may inherit a peerage; his father may die and he inherits the peerage. He is then subject to be summoned to the House of Lords, but he continues to contest the election. If he fail she need not submit a disclaimer; he can go to the House of Lords.
  As I understand the Bill, he can go to the House of Lords. If he wins the constituency seat he can make a disclaimer. This seems to me to be giving him two bites at the cherry of entering this Legislature.
  Mr. Wise: The writ would have to be moved very quickly.
  Mr. Gordon Walker: He gets two bites if his father dies while he is actually contesting the election.
  Mr. Bence: I am saying this because I hope for an answer from the Attorney-General. It seems to me that this is the position. He need not apply for a disclaimer before he contests the seat, or before he offers himself as a candidate. He can offer himself as a candidate a month before making a disclaimer, and if he is successful he can make the disclaimer, and if he fails he need not make the disclaimer and can go to the House of Lords. I may be wrong in this, but I am explaining the Clause as I read it, and if within twelve months another seat comes up he can have another shot. It may be a point on which I am wrong but I hope for an answer from the Attorney-General.
  I feel that on the first point I am very nearly correct and if I have read the Clause correctly, then I object to it very strongly indeed. I think that if a young man wants to pursue a political career in this place he should do it in the way all of us have to do it, through election, in the way of all of us to this House.
  Another thing I strongly object to is that on disclaimer of the title none of the other benefits or the assets of the peerage, whatever they may be, is disclaimed. I understand that many of those who have inherited peerages have inherited not so much assets but
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  liabilities, and have not spent their lives enjoying the benefits but have spent their lives trying to overcome the disabilities which their inheritance has brought upon them. I read in a book published by a well-known member of our party, many years ago, that many of those who inherited peerages have had very hazardous lives trying to overcome the disabilities they inherited.
  However, there must be some value to a peerage, to the great honour which is handed on, and if there are great liabilities they must be discharged, just as, if there are assets, they are retained. In this case, however, liabilities can be discarded, the liabilities which bar from a political career in this House; but, at the same time, the material benefits of the gift or inheritance which is handed on are retained.
  Many of those who will inherit peerages and who will toy with the idea of disclaiming in order to come into this House will be reluctant to apply for disclaimer unless they can feel that by coming into this House they are stepping on to the ladder of very high office indeed. I think that this consideration will weigh very heavily on those who will be able to make disclaimers. This is one of the reasons why I agree that this is a very small Bill indeed and that very few will renounce their inheritance.
  There is a great duty on anyone who inherits a great quality to cherish and develop it, but I feel that many noble gentlemen will hesitate before, as it were, discarding a gift, unless they feel that in doing so they can achieve advancement and progress for themselves through this institution. This, I feel, is undesirable; and it is for this reason I think that the Bill's proposal is undesirable, for it sounds as though it may develop some nepotism—some such relationship between peers, on the one hand, and, on the other, the establishment of whatever political party is governing the country.
  Although I shall not vote against the Bill, for many reasons, I still think that it is an undesirable and very petty Measure.
  7.40 p.m.
  Mr. G. R. Mitchison: We have heard some very interesting

  541
  speeches in the debate, although I agree with my two hon. Friends who have just spoken, the Member for Dunbartonshire, East (Mr. Bence) and the Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman), that this is a distinctly limited Bill. The House will remember that, in the discussions before the appointment of the Joint Select Committee whose Report the Bill follows, suggestions were made at one time that there should be a broader field of consideration including something about the reform of the House of Lords, questions of bicameral government, and the like, and those suggestions were turned down, as far as any possibility of agreement went, on the ground that we on this side would not go into those questions unless we could also go into the question of powers.
  This is a line which has been taken for many years in my party and also, I think, in the Liberal Party. We are not prepared to discuss questions of reforming the House of Lords by agreement unless we can consider also the limitation of powers which we should think necessary in that sort of case. Accordingly, the present Bill is a much smaller matter.
  I think that the House will agree that it arises out of what was really an injustice. Not for the first time had this injustice occurred. One Member of the House after another had had occasion to protest against being dragged up to another place against his will because he had succeeded to a hereditary peerage. People have felt that this was unjust, but this kind of injustice does, in fact, find a remedy when someone comes along who not only is sufficiently vehement but has some of the, shall I say, unreasonable awkwardness of the reformer, someone who takes every opportunity open to him, and some which, perhaps, are hardly open to him, to get the thing put right. This is what happened in this case. I feel that Mr. Wedgwood Benn should receive the thanks of all of us for having been unreasonable, for having got an injustice put right against the whole force of the Establishment, tradition and the rest. This is something worth doing by any Bill, by any use of die machinery of a Joint Select Committee or the like.
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  The occasion has been taken to deal with one or two other minor absurdities and injustices which called for correction. There is one matter which, though quite small from the point of view of numbers, is, I think, of real importance. By the Bill, for the first time is established the right of women who are peeresses in their own right to stand on the same footing as men. I hope that we are all sufficient feminists to regard that as a good and important change well worth making.
  We have dealt with two other matters. One is the wholly absurd position of Irish peers. They have been called peers. There is no Irish representative peer now; the last one died a couple of years ago. The Irish peers are, therefore, not representative, so there cannot be representative peers. There does not seem to me to be any particular reason why there should be, and the only point is that they cannot sit in the Northern Ireland Parliament. Of all ridiculous situations, I should have thought that that was one of the most ridiculous which our history and constitution ever arrived at.
  As to Scottish peers, I hesitate to say that there is any absurdity about them, but there is an almost infinite complication. If anyone wants a bit of light reading, I recommend Appendix 14 to the Report of the Joint Select Committee. In the absence of any Scottish Law Officers in the House, the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Attorney-General will, I do not doubt, be only too glad to give us at some time a short summary and criticism of the memorandum of the Lord Lyon King of Arms on questions connected with Scottish peerages. Perhaps I had better say no more about it.
  Those are the purposes of the Bill, and I am very glad that, although some of us would have liked a different Bill, and some have this or that point to make about it—I shall mention one or two myself—we all feel, at the end of the day, that it is right to let this vigorous and vehement young man have his way and be able to come back here. It is right not particularly for him—he was a very good instrument for the purpose—but it is right, too, for the people of Bristol, South-East. They voted for him knowing very well that there was something a bit odd about the situation—I am not using judicial language or trying to—and they made perfectly clear that he was

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  the man they wanted in the House of Commons.
  I am not saying anything contentious about his opponent or about what happened. I mean simply that it is a good thing for democracy that, when this kind of event occurs, it should, if possible, have some effect ultimately. That is what has happened in this case. It is probable that, however vehement he had been, without that support from the people of Bristol, South-East, he would not have succeeded in getting us to do what I hope we shall do today.
  In any consideration of whether we ought to have a second Chamber, reform of the House of Lords, or anything of that sort, there is one important fact which should be borne in mind but which nobody has mentioned today, although a good deal has at times been said about it. The House of Lords is, and seems likely to remain, the preserve of one political party. We cannot really talk sense about the question unless we bear that in mind. However, I am not here to talk about that now.
  There are two important points which my right hon. Friend the Member for Smethwick (Mr. Gordon Walker) mentioned at the beginning of the debate and which I repeat shortly now. One relates to the extinction of peerages, the drowning of peerages—whatever words are used. As the Bill stands at present, one has to produce a state of affairs which has never existed before. Artificially, one makes a dormant peerage, something which is supposed to lie about somewhere and to crop up again when a man who has renounced his peerage dies. I have never heard of that being done before.
  Mr. Wise: We have peerages in abeyance now, do we not?
  Mr. Mitchison: Of course. I am well aware of that, but I have never heard of an Act of Parliament which had the deliberate intention and effect of creating dormant peerages. I see no reason for doing it. Quite simply, it seems rather absurd.
  I never really know why people talk about the hereditary principle. Why is it a principle? What sort of principle is it? What does it mean? Rather like Henry Ford who said that history is "bunk", I feel that the hereditary
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  principle is rather "bunk" too. But I dare say that others take a different view. Be that as it may, whatever lies at the back of it all, this extraordinary device of tucking the peerage up in bed, telling it to go to sleep until someone dies, seems quite ridiculous.
  Mr. S. Silverman: Does my hon. and learned Friend think that it would be far better if the Short Title of the Bill were altered? It is not really a Peerage Bill but a Bill for the creation of life commoners.
  Mr. Mitchison: I still take the point, and I think my hon. Friend will agree, that, important though it is to deal with what might be called the Wedgwood Benn question, it is important also that the limited number of women who have been penalised compared with men, whatever we may think of the men's rights, should at least have the same rights. I am sure that we are all good enough feminists to feel that that should be done. Indeed, it should have been done long ago. When we divided in the Joint Select Committee on this matter of drowning peerages the majority of Members of this House voted for drowning. The voting was five to four. It was only members of another place who swung the balance the other way. No doubt this will be raised in Committee.
  The second point is this. Why have the Government thought it necessary to make the Bill operative only from the date of the next General Election? I have been sitting here practically the whole day thinking what can be the reason for this. I have been able to evolve only one possible reason. I do not know whether it is the right one or not; it probably is not. Are the Government thinking that an ex-peer who has renounced his peerage may be adopted as the next candidate for the Bromley Division?
  Is that what is in their mind—one man out of another place and another man going into it? I agree that this kind of suggestion is not too serious, but what is the object of making this provision? I simply cannot see it. No doubt when the Attorney-General winds up the debate he will tell us what is the practical reason for this. There are very obvious reasons against it. It looks fishy. Whether it is fishy or not it looks it, and that is a rather good reason in a Bill of this sort.

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  Thirdly, I am rather worried about the timing in some of these cases of renunciation—or should I use the other word? Let me give one very short instance. Take a man who succeeds to his peerage the day before Parliament is dissolved. He has a month in which to disclaim. If he is a Member of Parliament, he must do that by notice to the Speaker. I am not clear that the Speaker is there for that purpose. People always say that the Speaker remains between one Parliament and another, but he does so only for limited purposes.
  I assure the Attorney-General that I do not expect him to answer this sort of point this evening, but one finds on page 251 of Erskine May that by two Acts of Parliament of 1832 and 1846
  "it is provided that, in case of a dissolution, the then Speaker shall be deemed to be the Speaker, for the purposes of those Acts, until a Speaker shall be chosen by the New Parliament."
  When one looks, as I have looked, at the purposes of those Acts, one finds that they are strictly limited. There happen to be certain financial purposes with which I need not trouble the House. It seems to me that if we say that the Speaker shall be deemed to continue as Speaker for certain purposes, it is very strange that he should be taken to continue for other ones. This kind of point wants looking into.
  The point raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Dunbartonshire, East and one or two others are all Committee points, and I hope that the Government will have a look at them. May I say in the presence of the Leader of the House that I listened very carefully to what he said at the beginning of his speech. I did not quite follow him. I am sure that this is my fault and not his, but I suspect that there was another point which also needed some attention. I trust that the Government will take the opportunity to look at these matters before the Bill reaches Committee.
  I have taken up too much time already on a Bill of this sort and I conclude by saying that we on this side are heartily glad that this limited Measure has been brought forward. We shall certainly support it in every possible way. We think that the two points which I mentioned, and which I will call roughly drowning and dare, are serious and important, but, just as they were not enough in the
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  proceedings of the Joint Select Committee to make us vote against the Report as a whole, so they are not enough to make us vote against the Bill as a whole.
  7.55 p.m.
  The Attorney-General (Sir John Hobson): I agree with the hon. and learned Member for Kettering (Mr. Mitchison) that we have had very interesting speeches during the debate. It is usual for one to say that they have been wide-ranging speeches. In the course of this debate they have been exceedingly wide ranging on a Bill which has a limited purpose. Some speeches were slightly more wide ranging than others, but I note that only one voice has been raised firmly against the Bill, and, after I have given what explanations I can about the questions which have been raised, I hope that the House will give it a Second Reading.
  It is quite right, as has been said, that the Bill does not attempt to reform the House of Lords in any way. Nor does it raise the very wide issues which were touched on particularly by the hon. and learned Member for Ipswich (Mr. D. Foot) about whether there should or should not be a second Chamber and whether, if there is a second Chamber, its present composition ought to be radically reformed. Nevertheless, I submit that the Bill makes some important constitutional changes which may vitally affect the prospects, future life and usefulness of numerous individuals, and, in particular, as the hon. and learned Member for Kettering said, of peeresses, who, up to now, have not been able to have the equality between the sexes which is now almost universally accepted in this country.
  The Bill affects the composition of both Houses of Parliament and, to that extent, it changes the rules of the political game. It is desirable that constitutional changes of this nature, whether we regard them as large or small or whether we regard them as more or less important, should be made with the maximum support and agreement between not only the political parties in each House of Parliament but the two Houses themselves. It is for that reason that I am grateful that there has been so much unanimity in the House today. I agree entirely with my hon. Friend the Member for Clapham

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  (Dr. Alan Glyn) that this is another example of the art of the possible, which is what politics are so often about.
  While there are no doubt many details which will have to be examined in Committee, where many of the subjects which have been discussed today will be raised again, I am glad that there is fairly general agreement on the Bill's main provisions. I agree particularly with the right hon. Member for Smethwick Mr. Gordon Walker) that it is important that we should maintain the principle that there should be no "in and out" of either House. There should be a single option, and it should remain a single option throughout.
  It is also important that the Bill should maintain the principle that it applies to hereditary peers only. It is very difficult to see how it is possible on that principle to make any special exception for the noble Lord, Lord Longford, whatever regrets people may have about that. While it can be discussed, it seems difficult to depart from the general principle for a particular individual's advantage.
  May I deal first with one of the principal subjects of discussion, namely, whether the disclaimer provided for by the Bill should, as it is said, drown the peerage and extinguish it not only for the peer who disclaims but for his descendants, or whether, as the hon. and learned Member for Kettering said, the peerage should be made dormant or in abeyance by Statute for life. The right hon. Member for Smethwick and the hon. Member for Orpington (Mr. Lubbock) dealt with that. I agree with the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman) to the extent that it raises the question of whether the hereditary principle should continue to apply.
  I am grateful for what was said by my hon. Friend the Member for Peterborough (Sir Harmar Nicholls) and my hon. Friend the Member for Carlton (Sir K. Pickthorn) about the importance of the hereditary principle as the support of the House of Lords. However one may agree or disagree with those arguments, I submit that those are matters which fall for consideration at the time, when it comes, when there should be a general review of the House of Lords and the basis upon which persons should sit there, and that it would be wrong in a Bill of
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  this nature to endeavour by a side wind to diminish the effect of the hereditary principle because one is trying to make a provision under which an individual may sit in this House if he desires to do so.
  Mr. S. Silverman: I cannot quite follow this argument. When a man accepts a peerage in the first place, he accepts it for himself and his posterity; he has no opportunity of consulting them. When he accepts it in this way and binds posterity by so doing, why is it not an equal principle that if he is allowed to disclaim it, he should disclaim it for his posterity in exactly the same way as it was created for his posterity in the first place?
  The Attorney-General: All I am saying is that that might be the basis of a general reform for, as the hon. Member said, a diminution of the numbers in the House of Lords; but that is not what we are doing in this Bill. We are providing the opportunity for individuals to sit in this House although they would otherwise have been peers.
  All I am saying is that it would be wrong, while the membership of the House of Lords generally remains based upon the hereditary principle, to use this Bill to diminish that principle and that, as long as that hereditary principle is retained as the basis of membership for the House of Lords, it would be anomalous to allow a peer by his arbitrary action to prejudice both the Sovereign's and his heirs' constitutional rights and obligations.
  Mr. Mitchison: Is not the inevitable conclusion that in these cases we are creating a kind of dormant peerage, which has never existed before and is not supported by the hereditary or any other principle?
  The Attorney-General: It is quite right that during the time it has been disclaimed for the life of a particular incumbent, the peerage will be in the same condition as a peerage which is dormant. This will have been achieved, it is true, by Statute, but it will not mean that the peerage itself has been extinguished or drowned. This should not happen while the hereditary basis is the foundation of the House of Lords. I quite appreciate that there are arguments on either side, and I have no doubt that

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  we shall return to them in Committee and that this will be one of the principal matters of debate that is bound to arise in Committee.
  Mr. Bourne-Arton: Would not my right hon. and learned Friend agree that it is a mistake to assume that the heir to a peerage which is in abeyance, or which has been disclaimed, is necessarily of that peer's posterity or one of his descendants? He may be no such thing. Clearly, if he is a distant relative, the opportunity for blackmail would be considerable.
  The Attorney-General: That may be so. The converse is that by a whim, an elderly gentleman who was unlikely to live long might desire to disinherit from the peerage his relations or cousins who he knew were the next successors. Arguments of this kind always work both ways. Examples can be found both sides of the line. One must consider the general foundation of whether they try to diminish or to maintain the hereditary principle.
  Mr. C. Pannell: I hope that we do not try to make logic out of illogical arguments. I remember an old gentleman of 81 accepting a peerage. That condemned a lot of young men who were not consulted. It is all according to whether one thinks that they are being ennobled or are struggling after a liability. We had better accept it as what it is, a tidying-up operation, and not attempt to rationalise on the larger issues.
  The Attorney-General: That is what I was trying to say, that the Bill was to this extent a tidying-up operation and should not, therefore, diminish the hereditary principle.
  I was asked by my noble Friend the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Viscount Lambton), who made some earlier interventions and endeavoured to cross-examine without success the right horn. Member for Smethwick, to tell the House that he could not be here at this hour. He asks me to apologise to the House for his absence.
  The position about titles of courtesy under the Bill is that the Bill does not deal with them at all. They are not a matter of law, except I understand—it has been mentioned to me during the
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  debate—that it may be the fact that the elder sons of Scottish peers, who are often known as the Master of somewhere, may have a title as of right and this will have to be looked into and may require an Amendment to the Bill. Apart from that example, however, courtesy titles are entirely a matter of social convention. They are not matters that carry any legal right or obligation. It was, therefore, thought right that any mention of them in a Bill which legislates should be omitted.
  A person who succeeds to a peerage and who disclaims it will be a commoner. In all legal documents, official documents, invitations, books of reference and matters of that sort, he will be a commoner. It is probably well known to all hon. Members that those who come into this House bearing courtesy titles because their fathers are peers are sworn in and entered on the rolls of this House as "Mr. John Smith, commonly known as Viscount…"whatever it may be. Such a person is sworn in in his Christian name and surname, in the same way as any other commoner. The effect of a disclaimer will be that it will extinguish not only the principal peerage to which the person has succeeded, but any lesser title which normally would have been born by courtesy by his eldest son. The eldest son of a peer usually, by courtesy, bears one of the titles of his father who is the peer. Of course, it will be an obligation, before the person who holds all those peerages can sit in this House, that he should have disclaimed them and, therefore, they will be in abeyance.
  Mr. Wise: A baron's son is the Hon. Mr. So-and-So. As far as he is that in his own right, he is the son of a baron, just as an esquire is an esquire in his own right as the son of a knight. What happens to the eldest son under the Bill if a baron disclaims?
  The Attorney-General: He is not that as of right; he is it by courtesy as it is a courtesy title. The phrase "courtesy title" exactly describes the position in these matters. What the social conventions will be in the future, I do not know, but I assume that the majority of persons who wish to disclaim a peerage would not themselves desire to continue to bear any courtesy title. They are not themselves interested in con-

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  tinuing the obligations of the peerage. The majority of them, particularly those who came to sit in this House, would think it right and proper that they should sit here without any reference to the peerages which they have disclaimed.
  Mr. Ede: Would not this mean an alteration in the entry in the Official Report when a person holding a courtesy title is sworn in? I have here the entry at the beginning of this Parliament when the present Lord Sandwich was sworn in. It reads:
  "Alexander Victor Edward Paulet Montagu, esquire"—
  thus ranking him as a commoner, but goes on—
  "commonly called Viscount Hinchingbrooke, South Dorset"—[Official Report, 21st October, 1959; Vol. 612, c. 28.]
  Do I understand that that sort of description will continue? Earlier today I heard it suggested that if Lord Sandwich came back here—and he is a considerable loss to us while he is away—he would merely be described as Mr. Montagu. What would happen? What happens in the case where a peer has a son who dies and whose widow and children have then no title?
  When I was Home Secretary I had on occasion submitted to me a document which alluded to such a case and claimed that the widow and children of the deceased man should have the social precedence that would have been theirs had he been alive and succeeded to the title. What will happen with regard to that kind of case? That was not a matter of law but of social precedence.
  I understand that on certain occasions at court, and on other social occasions, some people seta great weight on this question of precedence. For instance, I often used to say that owing to some thing that happened in the eighteenth century—
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Sir Robert Grimston): Order. I am reluctant to interrupt the right hon. Gentleman but he will realise that he has not the Floor of the House. The Attorney-General gave way.
  The Attorney-General: The question of the name of a peer who comes back to the House is a matter for the House
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  itself and for its practice. I would suppose that such matters would be entirely within the control of the House. I do not think that any decision has been taken, but I believe that the general understanding will be that the peer will come back as "Mr. X" or whatever his surname may be. But there will be nothing whatever to prevent a man from calling himself commonly by any title he likes, or to prevent his friends, as a matter of courtesy, from calling him by his title. They need not call him by that title if they do not wish to do so.
  One difficulty is that, if one were to legislate about this, one would have to say that no one was to use a courtesy title if he either had disclaimed the peerage or was the son of a man who had disclaimed it. It would be an odd sanction to devise which would provide a penalty for a person who called himself by a courtesy title even although we had passed an Act of Parliament saying that he should not be called by that name. Who would enforce it and what would the penalties be? It would be a somewhat curious situation.
  We do not have an active court of chivalry in being at the moment—or at least not one that sits very much—and whereas these matters might have been dealt with there in ancient days we have to get on without it. I think that all this question of what a person will be called will be a matter of social convention. We shall have to see how the matter develops although it is plain, I should have thought, that those who have disclaimed their peerage would give up not only the title, dignity, honours, rights and obligations of the peerage but also any courtesy title as well.
  Dr. Alan Glyn: Although we are discussing the question of courtesy titles having no legal significance, in certain cases the Sovereign grants them. Do not these courtesy titles have some official sanction?
  The Attorney-General: I imagine that courtesy titles granted by the Sovereign will remain a matter for Her Majesty, who will be able to grant them in future if she desires. I think that answers the second point asked by the right hon. Member for South Shields (Mr. Ede).
  Sir W. Teeling: Reference has been made to the Earl of Sandwich. He was

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  famous here as Viscount Hinchingbrooke. If he stood for this House again he might well professionally—to put it that way—wish to be known as Lord Hinchingbrooke. In the same way, Mrs. Aneurin Bevan is not normally known by that name. There are other cases where people are not commonly known by their ordinary legal names.
  The Attorney-General: We may call a peer who has become a member of this House by his courtesy title when we meet him in the Lobby or in the smoking room, but that does not affect what he is called in this Chamber, where we refer to him by his constituency. The only official terminology entering into that is whether he should be called the "noble Lord" or not. His actual name will be irrelevant to our proceedings.
  The question of the traditonal Scottish peers has been raised and the hon. Member for Stirling and Falkirk Burghs (Mr. Malcolm MacPherson) was good enough to welcome this provision. I am sure that it will be generally welcomed. I understand that it will result in 15 additional Scottish peers and 10 Scottish peeresses in their own right being added to the House of Lords. While, of course, I understand that there may be regret by some people that ancient ceremonies that take place at Edinburgh at the beginning of each Parliament may become otiose and therefore abolished, I would think that on balance there is greater gain for Scotland in the provision about Scottish peers in the Bill.
  I turn now to the Irish peerage. It seems to me that the claim of Irish peers to membership of the House of Lords, as put forward by my hon. Friend the Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Sir W. Teeling)—that they should sit as representing the peerage of Ireland—seems wholly to ignore the partition which has now existed in the geographical entity of Ireland over the last 40 years, to ignore the fact that Eire is a republic and not in the Commonwealth, and to ignore the historical geographical and political facts which have been in existence for 40 years.
  All we are doing now by the provisions as to the Irish peerage in the present Bill is to give a legal status and reality to what has been a fact since 1921. The Bill only recognises that position, and I do not understand how it can be said that because, for the purpose of the Act
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  of Union in 1800, an Irish peerage was created, it is now necessary despite partition that there should still remain representatives of the Irish peerage in the House of Lords.
  Sir W. Teeling: If that is the case, why have we had Irish peers right up to three years ago? Was it only because of a mistake?
  The Attorney-General: Because Parliament has never dealt with the position that existed since 1921 in order to regularise it. From 1921 the situation was that while those already in the House of Lords continued to sit there, there was no method or system of renewing that representation.
  Of course, I recognise the importance of this matter to Northern Ireland in particular. It would be impossible to divided the Irish peerage into Northern and Southern Irish elements. Each individual Irish peer has a different residence which he may change throughout his life, and particular titles are not necessarily attached to one part of Ireland or another. We all recognise that Northern Ireland is the nursery of great men. It provided most of the field marshals in the last war and I do not see why it should not provide as many peers, either hereditary or life, in the future as any other part of the United Kingdom.
  Mr. C. Pannell: Is it not the fact that, with the suggested merging of the Scottish peerage, what we are getting is one United Kingdom peerage? Are not the rest of the Irish peers foreign peers so far as we are concerned, Southern Ireland not being within the Commonwealth? Do we not now have a United Kingdom peerage into which the Northern Irish peerage can enter?
  The Attorney-General: That is perfectly true, but I remind the hon. Gentleman that we still have peers of England and Scottish peers and peers of Great Britain as well as peers of the United Kingdom which, one presumes, future peers will always be.
  Mr. Pannell: It is like the Football League; they all play football.
  The Attorney-General: The other main point which was raised by a number of hon. Members was the question of the date on which the Bill will begin to operate. It is rather curious that today

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  Opposition Members have suddenly shown an active interest in the subject. The right hon. Member for Smethwick and the hon. and learned Member for Kettering raised a lot of teasing questions about this subject, but when it was discussed in March the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Belper (Mr. G. Brown) confined himself to saying that all he wanted was that it ought to be brought in so that the reform would apply in time for the next General Election.
  Mr. Gordon Walker: That is what we we are saying, that it should apply in time for the next General Election; not that it should formally come into effect, but that it should apply. It came as a great shock and surprise to us to hear what was proposed. My right hon. Friend had not then read the Bill.
  The Attorney-General: It comes as a great shock and surprise to me to hear that announcement, because my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House has consistently made this announcement and there has not been one peep or murmur from hon. Members opposite who now appear to be shocked by the idea. This is the first occasion on which shock has become audible from their lips.
  Let me explain what is the basis of the reason why it was decided that the Bill should operate only from the dissolution of this Parliament. The Bill affects the composition of the two Houses and the constitution. It was thought right that, as we had all been elected on one basis of the constitution for this Parliament, we ought to continue through this Parliament on that basis and that the composition of the House of Lords in particular should not be altered in this Parliament and that it would be perfectly satisfactory if the Bill came into operation for the purposes of the next Parliament.
  One of the objections was that there might be noble Lords desirous of standing at the next General Election. But their position cannot be affected by whether the Bill comes into operation immediately the Royal Assent is given or upon the dissolution. They all know the terms of the Bill now and they all know that it will be possible, as soon as dissolution takes place, or the Royal Assent is given—they could all tomorrow and they could yesterday since the Bill has
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  been published—decide to disclaim and then present themselves to a constituency and say that the Bill is obviously going through Parliament, there being substantial agreement between the parties, and that they would undertake if adopted to disclaim the peerage and certainly do so in order to be that constituency's candidate at the next election.
  Mr. Gordon Walker: It is just possible that the Government will collapse before the Third Reading and this would not become law and such noble Lords would innocently mislead their supporters in their constituencies.
  The Attorney-General: That does not affect the argument about whether the Bill should operate on the Royal Assent or otherwise, because it would not arise. I would have submitted that it was sensible and right and would not affect the interests of those who may be desirous of disclaiming their peerages and standing at the next election, because as from today they can present themselves for candidature at a constituency and no doubt put in a proviso in an undertaking to disclaim subject to the Bill's passing. I should not think many people would have much trouble about that.
  A number of detailed points were raised. There was an interesting question about the Arundel estates with which I do not intend to deal at the moment but which will be carefully considered. It needs a good deal of research and I should not like to answer it without consideration. I am grateful to the hon. and learned Member for Kettering for also reserving my right to deal with another of his fast balls at a later stage and not immediately on the Floor of the House.
  This has been a useful and interesting debate. The points raised will be given the fullest consideration. The Government are grateful to all right hon. and hon. Gentlemen who have drawn these matters to the attention of the House and I ask the House to give the Bill a Second Reading.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Bill accordingly read a Second time.
  Bill committed to a Committee of the whole House.—[Mr. Mac Arthur.]
  Committee Tomorrow.

  COMMONWEALTH DEVELOPMENT BILL
  Order for Second Reading read.
  8.27 p.m.
  The Under-Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations (Mr. John Tilney): I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.
  The Bill will, I believe, be welcomed on both sides of the House, especially after what has been said so many times in the past, about the need to expand the territory in which the present Colonial Development Corporation operates.
  What the Bill does to amend the Overseas Resources Development Act, 1959, and the Colonial Development and Welfare Act, 1959, is well set out in the Explanatory and Financial Memorandum, and if any right hon. or hon. Gentleman is not sure on any point, my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies will be able to answer any question when he winds up the debate.
  The House will remember that the C.D.C. was set up under the Overseas Resources Development Act, 1948. Its operations were confined to Colonial Territories not possessing responsible self-government and to British Protectorates. There have been various amending and validating Acts since then, but it was felt until recently that the Corporation would need all its resources for its work in dependent territories, for which Britain has a special responsibility.
  Thus, when the first country to become independent since the Overseas Resources Development Act, 1948, Ghana, shed colonial status, the C.D.C. was precluded by the Ghana Independence Act from operating there, without prejudice to the continuance of any operations begun before the date of independence. It was thought at that time that private funds should be the main contributor to development in the independent Commonwealth.
  Private enterprise has undoubtedly done a fine job in many Commonwealth territories. In the last few years, approximately £100 million per annum have been invested privately in these areas of the developing Commonwealth
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  which in future will be covered also by the C.D.C. But the policy of relying on private enterprise solely was changed in the Commonwealth Trade and Economic Conference in Montreal in 1958. Thenceforth, Commonwealth assistance loans were to be available, but even so, because formerly dependent countries are now so quickly becoming independent and because so many of them are poor and under-developed, there is a strong argument for not confining to Colonies the operations of the C.D.C. which is so well adapted to meet the needs of countries which have recently become independent.
  Therefore, this Bill puts back into the sphere of activity of the Colonial Development Corporation, now rightly to be renamed the Commonwealth Development Corporation, all Commonwealth territories which were in it in 1948 when it was set up. The Bill includes Southern Rhodesia, which is already within the ambit of C.D. and W., and the New Hebrides, but not British Somaliland, which has become part of a foreign country and in which the C.D.C. never had any interest. The ex-British South Cameroons have also become a foreign country—and I know that this part of the world is of considerable interest to my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool Kirkdale (Mr. N. Pannell)—but there the C.D.C. can continue in co-operation with its associate, the Cameroons Development Corporation, the development approved while the Cameroons was still a trust territory.
  It is, however, as well to take note that in accordance with the powers conferred under the Bill my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State intends to instruct the Corporation to seek his prior approval before starting operations in an independent country, and will give that approval only if the agreement of the Government of the independent country concerned is given.
  There is no intention of raising the amount which the C.D.C. can borrow from the Treasury above the limit of £130 million. The net advances outstanding amount to £92 million, and borrowings in the last ten years have averaged under £10 million per annum, and, of course, the C.D.C. can always also borrow from the banks or use its share of its now fairly substantial profits.

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  I should tell the House that the C.D.C. welcomes the policy embodied in this Bill, and I should like to pay my tribute to the work of the Corporation. The recently published Report for last year shows that the operating surplus has risen from £1,869,000 in 1959 to £4,361,000 in 1962, and the profit last year was £1·6 million, of which the Treasury, under the 1959 Financial Settlement, will receive £690,000.
  Paragraph 4(5) of the Report says that in 1959 approximately £12 million had been lost out of the then investment of £21 million, but since 1952 only £250,000 has been lost. In 1951, a staff of 325 at head office looked after an investment of £21 million. Now the staff at head office amounts to only 157, looking after an investment five times greater; so much has been achieved during the last twelve years which have coincided with a Conservative Government.
  The Corporation's objective is to assist in the development of the country in which it operates, yet the money with which the Corporation works is received on the strictest possible terms. However, in 1962, the Corporation's investment in manufacturing and processing enterprises alone was associated with a turnover at the rate of £38 million, of which goods worth £23 million were exported from the territories concerned, and British exports generated by those activities amounted last year to over £7 million.
  The Report goes on to say:
  "When a project has been successfully established the Corporation is ready to dispose of its investment, provided the price is satisfactory,"—
  and this is a point of which I think private enterprise might well take note—
  "particularly to buyers resident in the country where the project is situated. When a sale is complete the money is available for use for the development of some other project."
  I turn now to the colonial development and welfare part of the Bill. This is the sixth time that Parliament has been asked to provide funds since the first Act was passed in 1940 at the height of the German victories in France. The funds have always been dealt with on a cumulative basis, and each Act has simply extended the period in which funds are provided and has increased the aggregate amount.
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  The Colonial Development and Welfare Act, 1959, which was a consolidating Measure, provides assistance of two kinds. First, money for schemes for development and welfare in the Colonies, and this is mostly in the form of free grants. Secondly, Exchequer loans for colonial development programmes. The sums provided under both these heads are cumulative. Exchequer loans have proved invaluable because, despite the success of Barbados last year, the House will know that there have been many occasions when Colonial Governments have been unable to borrow money in the City.
  British aid to the Colonies this year is likely to be nearly £90 million, of which assistance under the C.D. and W. Act may account for about £35 million. Private investment is approximately £15 million, but more than half the territories rely almost entirely on C.D. and W. assistance for their development. Much of it is in the form of grant so that it can be used to cover local expenditure, though where this aid goes to finance imports, colonial territories are, naturally, expected to buy British. C.D. and W. money is intended primarily for basic Government social and economic services and not for projects in the commercial sector.
  The Bill extends the period in which C.D. and W. schemes may be made and Exchequer loans approved from 31st March, 1964, to 31st March, 1966. There will, therefore, be the customary overlap with the existing Act, thus enabling Colonial Governments to be informed well in advance of the aid they can expect. They can therefore plan ahead.
  The effective period of the Bill is three rather than five years because in these days of rapid constitutional and political change it is difficult to foresee more than three years ahead what the requirements are likely to be. It is, however, realised that the need will continue after that.
  The Bill increases from £315 million to £340 million the amount of money that may be spent on schemes under Section 1 of the C.D. and W. Act. At 31st March, 1963, about £43½ million remained unspent of the £315 million, so that about £68½ million will be available for expenditure in the three years, 1963–66. The provision for Exchequer loans is increased

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  from the figure of £100 million, made available by the 1959 Act, to £105 million. Issues of loans amounted to £64 million at 31st March this year, so that the Bill will permit further issues of £41 million.
  In deciding how much money should be provided under the Bill we could not overlook the probability that some territories now covered by it will become independent before 1966. If any territory enters independence with an unspent C.D. and W. provision, that amount will be "frozen", that is, set aside and not spent. This does not mean that we automatically stop development assistance to such a territory, but we cannot give it under this Act.
  We can, if necessary, give it in other ways, as we have done in the independence settlements relating to Tanganyika, Uganda, Jamaica and other territories. Conversely, if it is found that we have under-provided in our assumptions for the needs of such a territory, its continuing need could be met possibly by releasing to it some frozen balances from somewhere else. There is thus an element of swings and roundabouts in this arrangement.
  Although the Bill reintroduces a ceiling on expenditure for C. D. and W. schemes this is a purely precautionary measure, because of the substantial increase in our total overseas aid, particularly since 1959. In fact, it has approximately doubled since 1957. The scale of assistance provided by the Bill is considerably greater than that provided by the 1959 Act. The increase, taking grants and loans together, is 28 per cent., and the proportion of grant to loan is greater.
  The House will bear in mind the fact that previously for research and technical assistance for the Colonies funds have been found under the C. D. and W. Acts, but this expenditure is now financed by the Department for Technical Cooperation. This change, however, does not imply any decrease in the amount of research done for the benefit of colonial territories.
  This is a hybrid Bill, dealing with two distinct types of development aid for the less developed members of the Commonwealth, both dependent and independent. It will, however, I believe, commend itself to the House.
  8.41 p.m.
  Mr. John Strachey: Just now the Under-Secretary of State said that the Bill would be welcomed, and he is quite right. We welcome it very much. But in doing so, we say, "At last", because, as he truly pointed out, we have said on very many occasions that we wanted this Bill. We think that it has been introduced very late in the day indeed. We pestered the Secretary of State on the matter. I have personally pestered him for a long time now, and as long as a year ago we received assurances that it was coming. It has been a very long time being born, but it is certainly better late than never.
  On the other hand, we are critical of the Bill now that it has appeared, because it does not appear to us to be adequate. The obvious inadequacy that first strikes one is that it does not cover the whole of the Commonwealth. When we introduced this great change—and I am talking entirely about the C.D.C. now—making it possible for the Corporation to initiate new schemes outside the dependent and colonial territories, we surely ought to have gone the whole way and made the Corporation able to take action in the whole of the Commonwealth.
  Why should we restrict it to the territories which were dependent when the 1948 Act was passed, setting up the Corporation? I was one of the two Ministers who piloted the Measure through the House, and I have naturally been keenly interested in the Corporation ever since. Now that it is becoming a Commonwealth Corporation—quite rightly—why do we not include the whole Commonwealth in the scope of its activities? At present, three exceedingly important parts of the world—South-East Asia as a whole, India and Ceylon, and Pakistan—are excluded. This is a nonsense.
  I do not say that India is a very suitable territory for the C.D.C. It has reached a state of development where it does its own planning and a great deal of its own technical assistance. The scale of the Indian economy is so large that it rather dwarfs the Corporation. The Corporation has been the instrument of some territories which are not particularly small—it is very active in Nigeria, which is a big country—but India is on an altogether different scale. But even in India

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  I can imagine that there might be opportunities for suitable schemes, and I cannot see why it should be excluded. It might be that the Corporation would never operate there. But why exclude it?
  In the two other territories, Ceylon and Pakistan, there might well be very suitable opportunities. Ceylon might well benefit from C.D.C. activities. My hon. Friend and myself have recently visited Pakistan and we were struck particularly by the fact that there would appear to be suitable opportunities for the Corporation in Pakistan. It is noticeable that the Pakistani Government have established two very similar Corporations of their own, one in East Pakistan and one in West Pakistan, which act internally in a similar sort of way.
  Rightly, I think, on balance, the C.D.C. now acts indirectly. It invests in what are, as it were, local corporations and acts as a banker or, in a sense as a finance house. But I should have thought it might discover useful opportunities to act with the Pakistan corporations in a manner similar to its operations in East Africa. It seems to us a great mistake and a great pity that there should be this exclusion and we propose to move Amendments during the Committee stage to try to rectify this limitation.
  It may be that the Corporation might feel that this is too big a thing too take on. But it would be purely permissive, because no one would wish to force the Corporation into great schemes in South-East Asia if it did not wish to undertake them. But it seems to me a great mistake that the Corporation should be stopped from initiating anything in that part of the world should it desire to do so.
  To be frank, this is, I suppose, another example of Treasury caution. The Treasury has understandable reasons for entertaining certain suspicions about the C.D.C. and for not being keen on a wider extension of its activities. This, of course, brings me to the fact that was well brought out by the Under-Secretary, that the C.D.C. is now a success story. There is no question about that. But I was amazed when the hon. Gentleman said that this was coincidental with the arrival of the Conservative Government. I consider that "coincidental" is just the
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  right word and no more. After all, what happened was that the C.D.C. had severe teething troubles and this was just about what could have been expected.
  Mr. Peter Walker: It had lots of them.
  Mr. Strachey: Yes, it had lots of them. I do not believe that a Conservative Government would ever have set up the Corporation. But had they done so, I do not think that the teething troubles could have been avoided.
  The C.D.C. had to find out how to do its job, and that it has done. I am perfectly willing to give credit to the present Government for allowing the Corporation to discover its scope. But I cannot accept that this Government should take credit for the Corporation having overcome its teething troubles. Anyway, the C.D.C. would have been gradually throttled but for the new Measure, and it has been enabled to undertake new schemes in independent Commonwealth countries.
  The Under-Secretary has given the figures of its present-day results, and they are striking. The Corporation is not a philanthropic or an eleemosynary undertaking, but one which is of mutual benefit to this country and to the countries in which it operates. I think that the Treasury and the Government would be unwise to limit its activities on balance of payments grounds.
  I thought one of the most striking parts of the Report, which the Under-secretary did not quote and to which I should like to call the attention of the House, is the end of paragraph 6, where an attempt is made to show the effect of C.D.C. activities on the balance of payments. Those are very interesting figures. This is what the Corporation claims. It claims that last year—this is the Report for 1962—it drew £4·7 million from the Treasury, but of that it either kept in this country or remitted the larger part to this country, £3·7 million, leaving, at first sight, a burden on the balance of payments of only £1 million, almost a trivial amount when we think of the size of the figures involved.
  As against that it sets, interestingly enough—and it is an interesting economic point—the £7 million of British exports which it says the activities of the Cor-

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  poration as a whole, I take it, of the £100 million invested, had generated.
  Mr. Tilney: For the sake of the record, although I think that the right hon. Member said paragraph 6, he meant paragraph 4(7).
  Mr. Strachey: I beg pardon. That is correct, paragraph 4(7).
  Seven million pounds of exports are generated and, therefore, there is a failure on the balance of payments of £6 million. I should not like offhand to pin my faith on that exact calculation—I think it a difficult one to make—and to compare the exports generated and how they have been paid for. But it is a good claim of the Corporation and I think that one could say that it is fairly clear from those figures that the activities of the Corporation today are imposing at the most strain on the balance of payments at all. If the C.D.C. did not exist, our balance of payments certainly would be no more favourable and might be a little less favourable than it is today.
  The Treasury, rightly, of course, and inevitably—we should not complain of that—must be thinking always of balance of payments and always have this in mind, but it should take a wider and more favourable view of the C.D.C.'s activities. It is an impressive instrument today. In these smaller territories, some still Colonies and some High Commission Territories, where development, for obvious political reasons, is extremely important today, in those African and Asian territories, the C.D.C. is an incomparably flexible and effective instrument.
  I was particularly struck—and this refers to paragraph 6, which I mentioned, paragraph 6(2)—by the variety of agencies and partnerships by which the Corporation extends its activities, with Courtaulds, in Swaziland, the Dutch company, in Tanganyika, the International Bank, in Kenya, with the Kenya Government, with the Northern and Eastern Nigerian Governments, and with the West German Government, in Tanganyika. It is an extraordinary range of partnerships and, of course, there are many others in different parts of the world. A very attractive and impressive technique has been worked out there. I am sure that
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  every hon. Member who is present this evening who knows the Commonwealth will agree that the Corporation appears to be welcome wherever it operates.
  That is a remarkable thing, because the aid itself has not always been welcome and has sometimes created friction, but the Corporation seems to have been extremely successful in generating good will. It is becoming increasingly self-financing and is able to turn over its enterprises more and more to local entrepreneurs or local governments. I make no point about whichever it should be. It is excellent to do it to both. This frees funds for new enterprises. I think that its extension to the Commonwealth as a whole, long overdue, is a great step forward.
  Having said that, I look at the Report and study the figures, and I am impressed by the fact that, compared with the scale of international needs and of the international aid which goes on in the world, and even compared with the general amount of aid and investment which this country is undertaking in the world, mainly in the Commonwealth, the Corporation is not a very large element or a very significant factor, and we should delude ourselves if we thought that it was.
  The Government say that we are investing or giving in aid to the world as a whole, on both public and private account, about 1·7 per cent. of the gross national product, which means between £200 million and £300 million a year. The Corporation was doing only £4·7 million last year and as an annual contribution to aid this is very modest. Even public aid, I suppose, is about £150 million a year.
  The Corporation, on its present scale of initiating new operation, is a pretty small part of general aid and investment. I suggest that this very wide extension—we hope that before we have finished with the Bill it will be wider still—marks the Government's intention widely to extend the scope of the Corporation's activities. That cannot be done all at once. Because of the burdens put on the Corporation, it cannot be done suddenly, but a policy of steady expansion on the very sound basis which exists would surely be well received today. That would mean raising the

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  ceilings. The Corporation has not come near the £130 million yet, as the Minister said, but it would probably mean raising the ceilings in the end.
  It would also mean—and the Corporation has views about this—a change in the method of financing in the sense that the Government would become an equity holder rather than having a fixed charge on the Corporation. But, mainly and essentially, it would mean an intention to make the Corporation's activities over a period of years a substantial part of our general aid and investment programme, which we cannot say that it is at present.
  I am leaving to my hon. Friend the Member for Dundee, East (Mr. G. M. Thomson), who knows more about it than I do, the part of the Bill which deals with colonial development and welfare and the welcome extension which the Bill makes there. Whether it is adequate or not is another matter. I put it very strongly to the Government that in the C.D.C. we have a body which is a success story, but on a limited scale. We should not be frightened; there is no reason to suppose that it would impose any hurden on our balance of payments if we steadily expanded its activities so that it was brought into a rather different scale in the end form what it is on today.
  It represents an almost ideal method of investment and assistance to the developing world. It combines financial aid and technical aid in a way nothing else does. It brings together British financial resources and British technical and administrative resources for the aid of the developing Commonwealth and does it in a way which has been proved to be welcome in every part of the Commonwealth.
  Therefore, we regard the Bill as no more than a beginning in the development of the Corporation and it will be the intention of a Labour Government to build on a very considerable scale on these foundations.
  9.1 p.m.
  Mr. Norman Pannell: In common with the right hon. Member for Dundee, West (Mr. Strachey) I welcome the Bill as a natural consequence of the transition of the Empire to a Commonwealth. It would be
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  churlish to emphasise too much the delay which has occurred in presenting the Bill. Rather we should express our gratitude for the action now it has been taken. I agree with the right hon. Gentleman that it seems an anomaly that countries like India and Pakistan should be excluded. Those of us who have urged the extension of the C.D.C.'s operations to the Commonwealth had in mind those countries that have become independent since 1948. We were disappointed that as soon as they became independent any new projects in those territories immediately had to cease. It is fair comment to say that when the Overseas Resources Development Bill was introduced by the Labour Government in 1949 they specifically excluded the independent members of the Commonwealth such as India and Pakistan.
  Mr. Strachey: It was then a Colonial Development Corporation and a Colonial Bill.
  Mr. Pannell: I know, but this could still have been done. At that time it could have been made a Commonwealth Development Bill and India and Pakistan could have been included. Those countries were deliberately excluded from the operation of the Act.
  I want to take the opportunity of referring to one project of the Colonial Development Corporation which comes outside the scope even of this Bill. My hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations referred to it in his speech. I want to make special reference to it. I refer to the project known as Camdev, or the Cameroons Development Corporation, which operates in a foreign country in a Federal Republic of Cameroon. Its activities are centred in what is now known as the Western Cameroons section of that Republic, a territory which was formerly a British mandated territory and which in 1961 decided not to join Nigeria but to become a member of the Federal Republic of Cameroon.
  This project had been in existence by the C.D.C. in that territory for some years, and it continued after the territory became part of a foreign country. The arrangement was that any profit that might arise should be paid over to the Federal Republic. The extent of the

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  C.D.C. investment in this project is not quite clear from the accounts I have. All we know from the report received this morning is that £1 million has been lent by the C.D.C. to this project. It is undoubtedly a very important enterprise indeed, vital to the economy of this part of the Republic of Cameroon. It is engaged in the production of a large number of commodities—rubber, tea, bananas—and I think that the most important of them in point of value is bananas. When this section of the Republic became an independent country outside the Commonwealth in 1961, the Government decided to continue the Commonwealth preference, despite the fact that: the territory was no longer within the Commonwealth. It was in the first place extended until September, 1962, and later until September this year.
  That preference is particularly important in regard to bananas which are such an important part of the economy of the country. The C.D.C. itself in the Cameroons Development Corporation produces 30,000 tons of bananas a year of the value at point of export of about£1 million, and nearly twice that amount on arrival in this country to which most of the bananas are exported. This production of 30,000 tons is out of a total production in that area in the Western Cameroons of some 70,000 tons. Ten thousand tons, or perhaps 8,000 tons, are produced by a British company. Elders and Fife, and the balance of 30,000 to 40,000 tons is produced by local African enterprise.
  The preference is £7 10s. 0d. a ton. It has been said that this is not very important, that it does not matter much whether this preference is continued after September this year or not, that it is only ¾d. per lb. and the bananas fetch prices of anything up to 1s. 6d. per lb. in the shops, and that therefore the industry can bear the burden of a £7 10s. 0d. per ton. tax. I do not think this is proved by the facts that we have before us. I do not want to go into any tedious argument as to the high retail profit that is necessarily obtained on bananas and that the price to be taken into consideration is not the retail price but the wholesale price. I am looking merely at the accounts of the Commonwealth Development Corporation where,
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  under the heading of Federal Republic of Cameroon, the figures for the Cameroons Development Corporation are given. Last year, there was unfortunately no profit to pay over to the Federal Government. There was a profit in 1961 of £47,000 and in 1962 there was a loss of no less than £316,000. It was said that this was largely because the banana market prices were the worst in the Cameroons Development Corporation's history.
  It will be observed that the exports that year of bananas were 32,000 tons, and £7 10s. a ton duty would represent about £250,000. If that sum were added to the loss of £316,000, it will be seen that this enterprise, which seems to depend on a low capital of £1 million only, would be involved in a loss of over £½ million in one year's operation. That is the prospect before the company next year if the preference is not continued. It surely cannot be imagined that any enterprise with such a meagre capital could possibly continue operations on the basis of over £½ million loss per year.
  There is another aspect—that if the industry were to fail, the shipping which is a most important factor in the economy would also cease from that country, and there are no fewer than 60 shipments of bananas every year to the United Kingdom. I am not pleading a constituency case, but more than half of these shipments come to the port of Garston in Liverpool.
  It has been asked why this industry does not benefit from the E.E.C. arrangements, because it is in part of a country which is an associated territory of E.E.C. The fact is that there is a special arrangement with France for the purchase of bananas from the Cameroons and it is confined to bananas from the Eastern Cameroons, which is a former French part of the territory. It is, therefore, assumed that a quota will be imposed by France on bananas from Africa at 125,000 tons a year, of which only 50,000 tons will come from the Republic of Cameroon, and since over 50,000 tons already come from the former French part of the Republic there is obviously no place for the 70,000 tons of bananas produced in the Western Cameroons.
  The industry in the Western Cameroons has faced this problem and ever since danger of the removal of Commonwealth

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  preference appeared it has made strenuous efforts to improve its position. It has introduced a new variety of bananas known as "Poyo", as distinct from the strain grown up to now which is known as "Gros Michel". This variety is more productive and less susceptible to disease. It is believed that in time production could be so much improved that the industry would stand the burden of the £7 10s. duty which would be imposed if Commonwealth preference were to disappear. This, however, must take time. Great progress has been made, but not enough, and it is estimated that it will take a further three years before this new variety is in full production and the industry will have the opportunity of standing up to full world competition without the advantage of Commonwealth preference.
  It is argued that it is anomalous for a non-Commonwealth country to benefit from Commonwealth preference. The other Commonwealth interests have urged their own cases against the Cameroons. The West Indies—Barbados, the Windward Islands and Jamaica—export large quantities of bananas and they feel that if the Commonwealth preference were withdrawn from the Cameroons they would benefit, but that is a shortsighted view. It would not be possible for the deficit in the short term to be made up from other Commonwealth sources. This would mean that the market in this country would have to have recourse to other foreign sources of cheaper bananas which would lower the whole market to the long-term detriment of the West Indies. I ask my hon. Friend the Under-secretary of State for the Colonies to make some mention of this in his closing speech. It is urgent that a decision should be taken in the matter.
  The interests involved are great. A great many Europeans, mostly Britishers, are employed there and there is a labour force of 17,000 Africans. All these are in jeopardy. I ask my hon. Friend to consider some tapering off of Commonwealth preference over a period of three years so that it should continue for another year at £7 10s., reducing the next year to £5 and in the third year to £2 10s., and then disappearing altogether. This would give an opportunity to the industry to adjust itself to the new situation by the development of this higher yielding
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  variety of banana and perhaps in that way would save the country from disaster. There is also a serious political content in all of this, in that if this industry were to fail there is always the prospect that these countries would turn to the Iron Curtain countries, an event which we should take into serious consideration and seek to avoid.
  9.15 p.m.
  Mr. Jeremy Thorpe: Having crossed swords violently in previous Commonwealth debates with the hon. Gentleman the Member for Liverpool, Kirkdale (Mr. N. Pannell), it is a change and a pleasure to follow him and to find myself in substantial agreement with everything that he said.
  I had not intended to refer to the Cameroons, but the hon. Gentleman's speech has prompted me to do so, for any of us who were present here in the Palace of Westminster when the first meeting was held of the Anglo-Cameroonian Society which has now been formed will appreciate the value which the people of the West Cameroons attach to their previous relationship with this country and their anxiety that those ties of friendship shall be perpetuated.
  I would underline the request the hon. Gentleman has made to the Government that they should consider the possibility of tapering off Imperial Preference rather than suddenly turning it off at an arbitrary date. I think that there is great force in the argument he has put forward on that ground.
  I, also, warmly welcome the Bill. It is a Bill which could mark a new phase in Commonwealth relations. I suppose that there is always a tendency in this House for hon. Members who are particularly interested in any matter which is the subject of debate to regret that other hon. Members do not show an equal interest in the subject, but though, perhaps, it is slightly churlish I find it regrettable that on a subject of such vital importance as this to the Commonwealth as a whole, and when we are considering a Measure for the development of the assistance which this country is able to give to the Commonwealth, there is not a larger attendance of hon. Members. This is a Bill for which hon. Members on both sides of the House have pressed for a very long period of time, and I believe that one of the most

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  cogent observations in that regard was made by the late Hugh Gaitskell during a Commonwealth debate. I well remember his pointing out the brutal fact of independence for a Colony was that it was suddenly deprived of any further, fresh assistance from C.D.C., and not merely the tapering off of the completion of existing schemes.
  Therefore, I think that this is of enormous significance. First, I think that the change in name is of importance. The word "Colonial", to some, had a connotation which was opprobrious. I think that psychologically this is an important change. It is enormously exciting to feel that nine or ten countries, such as Nigeria, Ghana, Malaya, Sierra Leone, Tanganyika, Uganda, Cyprus, Jamaica, can all now benefit from the provisions of the Bill.
  I think it right to say that, in addition to the pressure of right hon. and hon. Members of the House, there was pressure from some of those territories upon the Government in the United Kingdom to introduce this Bill. Perhaps I have not travelled as much as other hon. Members who have taken part, or will be taking part in this debate, but when one goes to East Africa or West Africa, or, indeed, the Caribbean, one thing which one learns is that the Governments of all those countries are crying out for bigger investment to provide employment for their people, technical knowledge and "know-how".
  I agreed with the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Dundee, West (Mr. Strachey) when he regretted that the Asian members of the Commonwealth would not be included within the purview of the Bill. They can, of course—I am subject to correction—ask for advice and for managerial assistance from the C.D.C.; they can make that request, but will have to pay for it.
  I think that this is something which must be looked into, to see whether it is possible to extend the formula. I envisage that, within the present limited formula, the provisions of the Bill would be of very great assistance in, for instance, Pakistan and India in agricultural schemes. There are great possibilities there.
  This brings me to the first point which I wish to press upon the Under-Secretary
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  of State, that the scope for association with other organisations and other financial interests is tremendous. The right hon. Gentleman drew attention to paragraph 6(2) of the 1962 Report of the Colonial Development Corporation which refers to various private organisations and public companies and banks with which it had co-operated. I should have thought that, particularly in the Far East, there might well be opportunities for the technical and managerial "know-how" of the Corporation being married to the financial resources of the World Bank.
  I should like to see Commonwealth investment, that is, one member country of the Commonwealth investing in another. As far as I know, this has happened only under the Colombo Plan. I have always wished that the wealthier countries of the Commonwealth—Canada, Australia and New Zealand—could be encouraged to play a part in providing technical assistance and capital in the developing parts of the Commonwealth. It would be out of order to discuss the ideas which have been canvassed for a service to provide doctors and technicians on a Commonwealth basis, but, dealing only with finance, I hope that it may be possible to interest various countries of the Commonwealth in investing in this way.
  Mr. Tam Dalyell: Is the hon. Gentleman aware of the work which New Zealand does in providing education on a rotary basis to the Pacific Islands? I agree with what he says, but I hope that he recognises the work which is already being done.
  Mr. Thorpe: Certainly. I wholeheartedly recognise and commend the investment which Canada is making in Jamaica and various parts of the Cameroons and what New Zealand is doing, as the hon. Gentleman says, in parts of the Pacific. But, as far as I know, there has been no actual investment made for the purpose of Commonwealth development along the lines of the Commonwealth Development Corporation. I should like to see it not only Commonwealth in scope, but Commonwealth in investment. I believe that there are enormous possibilities there.
  A great advantage of the Corporation is that its capital is not tied. If a country

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  lends capital for a scheme, the Corporation is not bound to buy its raw material and machinery from the lending country; it can go into the world market and buy in the best market. I know that there have been whispers that this is a state of affairs which the Treasury and the Government would, perhaps, like to alter, but I hope they will set their face against any such change. In my view, this is one of the reasons why the Corporation has been able to buy in the cheapest market and has been able to economise in many respects when purchasing capital equipment. It would be retrogressive if that system were to go.
  The Corporation's record has been one of superb stewardship. Of course, there were teething troubles at the beginning. It was a totally new conception. But every penny borrowed is being repaid. The Corporation has proved a boon to many countries which have been able to build up their basic services in a way which would have taken them years on their own. Although one is usually very cautious about giving to a public corporation increased powers, there is no corporation which has proved itself more capable and which more richly deserves to have its powers increased than the C.D.C.
  Now, a word about colonial development and welfare. The powers here, particularly the financial powers, are to be increased. In a Question on 4th February, the hon. and gallant Member for Arundel and Shoreham (Captain Kerby) asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what was to be the period for repayment of the loan made under Section 2 of the Colonial Development and Welfare Act, in round figures £200,000, to the Kenya Government with reference to certain farm lands in the Nandi Salient, with which, perhaps, the Under-secretary of State is familiar.
  This is a case which C.D. and W. will be considering in the very near future and in which this country has a very strong moral obligation. I hope that C.D. and W. and, indeed, the right hon. Gentleman will be very generous in it. The right hon. Member for Woodford (Sir W. Churchill); when he was Under-secretary of State for the Colonies in 1907, and when he was an ornament of
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  the then Liberal Administration, declared that that plot of land belonged in perpetuity to this particular tribe.
  Since then, beginning in 1912 and later in 1919 and subsequently over the years, that property has been wrongfully alienated and wrongfully taken away from this tribe and leased to various European farmers by the Crown. It was leased with aid which the Kenya Government sponsored European Agricultural Settlement Board gave to these farmers who went out to settle there.
  In 1950, the British Government realised that they had an obligation to hand back this land to this tribe and they bought 10 farms of 11½ thousand acres for which they paid £120,000 in compensation to the European farmers on those farms. That was to be compensation for their crops, movables, legal cattle and for a disturbance allowance. At the time the British Government said that, in their view, that was the end of the claim of this tribe, but recently the Government have realised that they are under a moral obligation to see that the remaining part of this territory is handed back voluntarily to this tribe.
  We are, therefore, faced with the fact that there are 20 farms which will be bought out and the money for buying them out will come from a C.D. and W. loan. The European farmers on those farms have accepted that they must sell their farms and move elsewhere. For the most part, they are anxious to remain in Kenya and to reinvest in other parts of the Colony—I think that it is still technically a Colony—but, because the money is coming in the shape of a loan and because the land will be given back free, there has been cheeseparing in the valuation on those territories. Although the right hon. Gentleman originally said that a loan of £200,000 would be made, that has now been whittled down to £150,000 and the basis of compensation is that there will be no disturbance allowance paid at all to those farmers.
  This is not similar to the voluntary 1 million acre scheme which is going on at the moment in Kenya. This is a very special state of affairs in which farmers were induced to take leases on property in respect of which the Crown held itself out as having a title which, in fact, it does not have, and, through no fault of their

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  own, the farmers are having to give up their farms and are being compensated at a figure which does not take into account a disturbance allowance.
  They have accepted this valuation from the Kenya Government on the understanding that this will be reviewed by the Secretary of State with the possibility of a disturbance allowance being subsequently paid. Therefore, since we are discussing colonial development and welfare, I hope that a proper market price will be paid to these farmers, to whom we have a strong moral obligation.
  All I should like to say, in conclusion, is to add my word of congratulation to an extremely efficient board which has varied interests and wide experience. The board of directors of the Corporation and the staff are few in number in relation to their turnover, but, collectively, they have achieved a fine result. I believe that this could help to raise the living standards of many parts of the Commonwealth. I hope that we shall be able to widen its scope and to interest other members of the Commonwealth to invest generously in it.
  9.31 p.m.
  Mr. John Farr: I will not follow too closely the avenue along which my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Kirkdale (Mr. N. Pannell) led us a little earlier in connection with bananas. He is obviously an expert on that subject, which I am not. Similarly, I will not attempt to follow too closely the remarks of the hon. Member for Devon, North (Mr. Thorpe), who gave us an exposition at some short length, and of necessity slightly woolly, on the Liberal ideas of Commonwealth cohesion. I will leave the hon. Member with the machinations which he put before the House.
  I should, however, like to express some accord with the right hon. Member for Dundee, West (Mr. Strachey). I share to some extent his remarks about the desirability of expanding the work of the Colonial Development Corporation, as it used to be called, or the Commonwealth Development Corporation, as it will henceforth be known as a result of the Bill. I do not, however, go all the way with the right hon. Gentleman, who tended, perhaps, to fall into an old custom of his of encouraging grandiose schemes in different continents of the world.
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  This time, the right hon. Gentleman was talking of vast schemes in Asia. A few years ago, he was concerned with vast schemes in Africa, and on the last occasion the British taxpayer had to foot the bill for the errors which arose there from. Therefore, I would not go all the way with the right hon. Gentleman in his vast expansion of the C.D.C. I would rather see a fairly steady annual and regular expansion of the moneys which are put into C.D.C. and a sensible and annual expansion of the work through C.D.C.
  I welcome, first, the commonsense change in the description of the Corporation. It was foreshadowed in the Gracious Speech from the Throne at the beginning of the Session and it puts matters in their proper perspective. I similarly welcome Clause 1 of the Bill, which provides a sensible enlargement of the sphere of operations of the new C.D.C. Perhaps I should say that instead of providing a sensible enlargement, it prevents a curtailment of the sphere of operations of the Corporation. This would have naturally followed had one Commonwealth country after another achieved independence and the Corporation no longer been allowed to operate therein.
  I believe that I am right in saying that both sides of the House are agreed with the two sensible measures which have been urged upon the Government Front Bench from both sides for a number of years. What has turned what could have been a major Commonwealth unifying initiative into a somewhat petty little Bill, however, has been the entire failure to expand the total sum of money—£130 million—which can be advanced from the Consolidated Fund to the C.D.C.
  In the last debate on this subject, on 7th July, 1960, hon. Members on both sides of the House referred to the ham-stringing of the C.D.C. by the lack of money available to it from the Consolidated Fund. The then limit was also £130 million from the Exchequer. This Bill will considerably increase the activities of the Corporation but apparently it will still maintain the same limit of money available from the Consolidated Fund.
  The then Secretary of State for the Colonies in 1960 said that the capital

  579
  which the Corporation then had should be made to revolve. But however much one revolves 6d. it will never appear to be 1s., and of necessity many of the projects of the Corporation require not permanent but certainly long-term involvement of its funds.
  On two grounds alone I am extremely puzzled to understand the reasons for refusing to extend the money available. First, it is doing pioneer work in many undeveloped territories—all of which, except for the Cameroons, are in the Commonwealth. I have seen the work it is doing in Bechuanaland in comparatively virgin territory, putting in a great deal of hard work and money into a fine project. Secondly—and an even stronger factor—thesre is the fine financial performance of the Corporation since we debated it in July, 1960.
  Then it was shown that its profits were steadily increasing. Since then, there has been a further marked improvement in its financial position. For instance, in 1959, it showed an operating surplus, after overseas tax and before interest to the Government and provision against capital loss, of £1,800,000, and in 1962 this increased to £4,361,000. That is an excellent result, reflecting great credit on the management of the Corporation and all who work for it.
  In addition to this steady and welcome increase in profits, as my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State said there has been a really marked improvement in the office figures in London. The office staff has been halved while the capital involved has multiplied from £20 million to over £100 million. In view of the considerable benefits which flow to us from the C.D.C.—the development of backward nations and areas, which hon. Members often call for, the need to maintain some form of our national connection with those areas, and, not least, because it is a pretty secure investment—I suggest that the sum of money which is the maximum that can be advanced from the Consolidated Fund to C.D.C. should be raised to £250 million.
  Finally, why are we being asked in Clause 2 to approve a reduction in the annual rate of C.D. and W. loans in 1964 and 1965? The annual average of loans at the moment is a maximum of £25 million. My right hon. Friend may be
  580
  envisaging that with the continual development of our Colonial Territories into Commonwealth nations C.D. and W. funds will not be required for the development of these territories to the same extent as in the past, but the work is still there to be done.
  There is much to be done in many colonial territories which, for as far as one can see into the future, will not be independent or connected with independent Commonwealth territories. I could name many of them, such as British Guiana, the Mauritius, the Seychelles, or even the High Commission Territories. Why is the ceiling of money available annually to be reduced from £25 million to £20 million? Can my hon. Friend tell me what has been the loan demand on the sum available in the past three years and what proportion of that demand has the sum available met?
  If we are to channel from C.D. and W. work a sum of £5 million a year, cannot the money we save in that way be used to enlarge the total limit of sums which may be made available to the C.D.C? I believe that the C.D.C is a winner. I am not concerned with whether it is a Government body. It has done wonderful work for the Commonwealth, and on those grounds alone it should be continually fostered and expanded.
  9.43 p.m.
  Mr. Tam Dalyell: I want to focus attention on one narrow topic which I believe to be of crucial importance—the provision of paper, writing paper and textbooks, to developing areas. Most of us have travelled widely and have experience of West Africa and other developing countries and know the need, but I was reminded of it only last week when entertaining a representative of the Sierra Leone Red Cross.
  He said that he was one of a family of 20—his father had four wives. Of his brothers and sisters, he said, 17 would have done well in some sort of higher education, but only he and one brother had achieved it. Basically, that was because schools in Sierra Leone, as in other developing countries, demand fees which are relatively high, and they are high because of the cost of books and education materials of all kinds rather than because of the cost of teaching, and school buildings.

  581
  From the particular to the general and to the Report of the Second Commonwealth Education Conference which took place in New Delhi. On page 57, paragraphs 33 and 34 say:
  "We are unaware of any precise estimates of the need for books in Commonwealth countries; but our discussions made it clear that there is a growing unsatisfied demand for reading matter of all kinds, ranging from primers aid simple readers for children and new literates to literature and reference material for general readers and specialists.
  It is clear that, unless urgent steps are taken to enlarge the existing supply of suitable books and to improve the facilities for their production and distribution, education will continue to suffer."
  This can be met by the C.D.C. setting up the sort of printing and paper making apparatus which is needed or, alternatively, and in the very near future, by using the under-utilised resources in Britain to help the developing countries. Surely this is an instance in which the paper mills which are working, or were throughout the winter, four days a week can be brought into operation on behalf of this priority aid which should be given to the territories? This applies not only to the paper mills which produce school jotter paper, but to the manufacture of text books which is carried on in many of the areas which are hardest hit by unemployment. I refer, in particular, to the firm of Nelsons, which has done so much pioneering work for text books adapted to Africa.
  Perhaps for a moment I might come back to the description given by my Sierre Leone Red Cross friend to the situation in Sierre Leone—the way in which, for instance, only one maths jotter of 24 pages of inferior paper is allowed each term. The fact is that one cannot learn mathematics if one has only a slate and is allowed no more than one jotter per term, and this kind of example can be multiplied in other territories.
  I say no more not because there is a great deal to say, but because I wish crisply to confine myself to this one topic with the hope that I shall have an interview with one of the Departmental officials, if not with the Minister himself within the next few days, and perhaps he will give this point his consideration.
  9.47 p.m.
  Mr. Peter Walker: Lest the praise of the right hon. Member for Dundee, West (Mr. Strachey) and that of the hon. Member for Devon, North (Mr. Thorpe) make my hon. Friend the Under-secretary feel that there is every reason to be contented with this piece of legislation, I should like to raise one voice in opposition to the Bill, which, I consider, is disappointing and dreary. It will not measure up to the challenge of potential investment in the Commonwealth. Having waited for the Bill for some time, I find that in total it is a disappointing document.
  The failure lies in the fact that there still tends to be an attitude, when talking in terms of investment and welfare aid to the Commonwealth, to think in terms of what can be done out of what is left over after we have examined our balance of payments problem. This results in a relatively small sum being devoted each year to this problem, certainly small compared with other major items of Government expenditure when the return and the reward in moral or in economic terms could be enormous.
  One of the reasons for this failure is that there is virtually no background information on the total potentiality of investment in the Commonwealth to try to get a general impression of what is required in terms of investment and what would be the result of that investment were it available. This is something which has not been examined in detail and is not readily available to hon. Members.
  The few facts that one can glean from the trend of Commonwealth trade, or from the trend of investment in the Commonwealth, indicate that there is enormous economic potentiality in substantially increasing our investment in certain Commonwealth countries. I think that the results of the work of the Colonial Development Corporation, now to be the Commonwealth Development Corporation, up to date show the rewarding investments that can be made in African territories.
  If one studies the trend of trade with our African territories in the Commonwealth, one finds, for example, that in the years 1950 to 1960 our exports to African, Asian, and West Indian territories increased by £257 million. Yet our

  583
  investment during that period was relatively small. Indeed, direct economic aid in 1960 amounted only to £36 million in all, plus certain loans. Last year, we exported to African territories alone, leaving out the Republic of South Africa, nearly £300 million worth of goods. Yet our aid to African territories in that year—aid of all types, such as loans, financial grants, and supply of equipment and technical assistance—amounted to £78 million.
  It would, therefore, seem, as has been proposed by certain distinguished experts working in this sphere in the United Nations, that any increase in investment brings with it a substantial increase in the importing potentiality of the country concerned, and, therefore, a substantial increase in opportunities for British trade.
  I regret that more has not been done by Her Majesty's Government to produce reliable information as to the relationship, first, between investment and exports, and, secondly, investment and general economic growth. I must also express my disappointment at the fact that a proposal in which I know my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations has taken a great personal interest over the years was not in some way included in the provisions of the Bill.
  I refer to a scheme to provide some form of insurance cover to private firms investing in under-developed and Commonwealth territories. A Commonwealth Capital Development Department could well have been incorporated in the terms of the Bill. This is an operation in which the advice of the technical staff of the C.D.C. would be invaluable, because it has constantly had to make commercial decisions and has constantly had to assess the risk involved in investments in particular Commonwealth countries.
  It therefore has the "know-how" which could provide the ratings and mechanism required to embark upon a scheme and which would give substantial guarantees, and interest private investors in going into these countries. Yet there is no such provision in the Bill. Indeed, all that the Bill does is to provide certain rather limited increases in the amount of expenditure over the next few years. It does very
  584
  little to increase the general activities either of the C.D.C. or those made possible by the various welfare Acts.
  I hope that the time will come when my hon. Friends will recognise that we have here a great economic potential—something of great moral importance and something which, in terms of the overall strategy of the West, vis-à-vis the struggle against Communism, has continued to be neglected.
  9.53 p.m.
  Mr. Cledwyn Hughes: I want to intervene briefly to seek an assurance from the Under-Secretary of State that the smaller territories of the Commonwealth will be no worse off under the Bill than they are at present. I wish to make a special plea for some small territories which are rather neglected by the Government. They tend to be forgotten because they are small and remote, and because they have apparently no great problems to be solved.
  It is not unnatural that the Government should be preoccupied with the obvious problems of the large African territories, but the fact remains that these small territories have their own very real problems to contend with. I have in mind particularly the island of St. Helena, which is over 4,500 miles from these shores and has a population of less than 5,000.
  There is for example the problem of unemployment. The people depend for work mainly on the flax industry which has a history of instability. The other source of employment is the Government service and there is also a certain amount of farming on a small scale. There is sporadic unemployment and few opportunities for emigration to this country. There is also the problem presented by the lack of amenities. Housing generally on the island is of a very poor standard.
  Shortly the British Government will be left with only these small territories to care for—only such places as St. Helena, Tristan da Cunha, Mauritius and the Seychelles. The large territories are rapidly gaining their independence. I should have thought it would be not only our moral duty but also in our own interests to see that, so far as is possible, these small territories are made econo-

  585
  mically viable. I hope, therefore, that additional funds will be made available to assist them to attain this objective under the provisions in this Bill. It would be an excellent thing if the new Corporation could send out a representative to St. Helena to inquire into the potentials of the island and the possibility of establishing a small industry there.
  The provision of an airfield would make an enormous difference to St. Helena. In order to get to St. Helena at present one must travel by sea. Ships call there infrequently and the journey takes from 14 to 16 days. Were the island more easily accessible, it would undoubtedly be a popular tourist centre, because it is a delightful place with an admirable climate. I believe that these potentialities, the possibility of providing new industry and an airfield, should be investigated. I hope that this will be possible. I hope that the Under-Secretary will deal specifically with the position of the small territories and reassure the House that more and not less assistance will be available to them under this Bill. If he can give that assurance, I shall be glad to welcome this Measure.
  9.59 p.m.
  Mr. G. M. Thomson: Like all hon. Members who have taken part in this debate, I wish to extend a welcome to the Bill. I could hardly do otherwise because, as hon. Members opposite who have taken part in the successive debates on this subject will know, we on this side have been pressing the main change proposed in the Bill for a very long time.
  We should have welcomed the Bill more warmly had it come a bit earlier, because it is quite a long time since this uncontroversial proposal was originally conceded by the Minister. In fact it was in July of last year, almost exactly 12 months ago. It was mentioned in the Gracious Speech and the Bill has taken a considerable time to arrive before us, at the tail end of the Parliamentary year. To hon. Members on this side of the House this seems to provide further evidence of the lack of success of the experiment of having one Secretary of State in charge of the Colonial Office and the Commonwealth Relations Office. Perhaps the time will come when
  586
  it would be a good idea. But the evidence of the last 12 months has proved that it has meant considerable delay.
  It being Ten o'clock, the debate stood adjourned.
  Proceedings on the Commonwealth Development Bill exempted, at this day's Sitting, from the provisions of Standing Order No. 1 (Sittings of the House).—[Mr. Hughes-Young.]
  Question again proposed. That the Bill be now read a Second time.
  Mr. Thomson: This position has meant a very considerable delay in business coming before the House. This is why we have had to wait so long for this Bill.
  There is, I am afraid, a long history of delay in the Government's dealings with the Colonial Development Corporation. The Under-Secretary, who opened the debate, said that it was a remarkable coincidence that the Corporation should have done so well during a period of Conservative Government. I think perhaps that the reason is that the Conservative Government have paid so little attention to it and it has been able to get on with its business without the Government expressing much concern.
  I well recollect those of us, including the Minister who opened the debate, who were concerned about the financial disabilities of the Corporation in earlier years being very glad when the Sinclair Committee was set up to investigate the financial structure of the Corporation. That Committee performed its duty with remarkable expedition. It produced its Report in three months, in July, 1959, but it was not until July, 1960, that we were able to have the Report discussed in the House. That was when the present Leader of the House was Colonial Secretary. Not until the year after did the present Leader of the House manage to get round to doing anything about the Report. What he did in the end was remarkably timid and cautious.
  Now we have had a further year's delay over this proposal. I think I can recollect 12 Conservative Ministers one after the other standing at the Dispatch Box giving powerful and irrefutable reasons from their own point of view why it was quite inconceivable that the Colonial Development Corporation

  587
  should be converted into a Commonwealth Development Corporation. This is a delayed conversion, but we welcome it nonetheless because of that fact.
  It seems remarkable that, despite these delays in Government decision-making in relation to the work of the Corporation, the Corporation should have gone ahead with its morale seemingly unimpaired and recorded the achievements which are in its Annual Report published a day or two ago. Despite the fact that we welcome the main proposal in the Bill, it seems to me that the Bill itself is rather messy and not sufficiently imaginative. It used to be an argument from the Government side against turning the Colonial Development Corporation into a Commonwealth Development Corporation and allowing it to initiate new projects in independent countries of the Commonwealth that it might cause offence among the newly independent Commonwealth countries if they were to be linked with what basically was a colonial corporation. I do not think that this was a well-founded argument, but it was one frequntly put forward by the Government.
  It therefore seems strange that when the Government have finally decided to take the risk and make this change it should have put it into a Bill which is also mixed up with the extension of colonial development and welfare grants. If we had two separate Secretaries of State we probably would have had two Bills to deal with these matters, and we might have had both of them a little earlier. To put the question of the Commonwealth Corporation in the same Bill as proposals for expanding C.D. and W. grants seems to me to be a typical example of the muddle which the Government have allowed to grow up in the general area of aid-giving to Commonwealth countries.
  I give an example. The C.D.C. itself has come under the Colonial Office. Is is now to be under both the Colonial Office and the C.R.O.? To whom are we to put questions about the operations of the C.D.C. in future? In any case, the C.D.C. will be between these two Departments. Capital aid to the Commonwealth is in the hands of the Treasury. Technical assistance to the Commonwealth is in the hands of the
  588
  Department for Technical Co-operation, C.D. and W. grants, the other part of the Bill, are in the hands of three Departments—the D.T.C., the Colonial Office and now the Central Africa Office.
  Everyone will agree that there are immense possibilities for inter-Departmental chaos, warfare and hold-ups. When this change was being made in the scope of the C.D.C., I think that there was a case for transferring it to the authority of the Department for Technical Co-operation. Apart from the fact that it is a capital-consuming Corporation, it seems in some ways to fit much more closely into the functions of that Department of the Government than any other.
  It is impossible for hon. Members on this side of the House, with the knowledge available to us, to say what exactly would be the best pattern of Governmental organisation for economic assistance to Commonwealth countries, but it is beyond doubt that the increased importance of this subject over recent years has meant that there ought to be an inquiry into this matter and some streamlining of the Governmental organisation.
  I think—and I speak personally here—that there is probably some case, for instance, for the Commonwealth Development Corporation, as it will be, to act as an agency in some of the expenditures incurred under the Colonial Development and Welfare Act. A number of hon. Members have said that a unique feature of this Corporation is that it combines the possession of capital aid with special "know-how" in terms of development in under-developed countries, as well as having a resident team of people in the various areas of the Commonwealth. In the light of some difficulties which the Colonial Office has had with the expenditure of C.D. and W. money at certain times, it is, I think, worth exploring whether the C.D.C. might play some part in using these moneys in Colonial Territories.
  Equally, we on this side of the House would like to see the scope of the C.D.C. very much extended in the newly independent countries of the Commonwealth, and we should also like to see an extension in the character of the operations which it undertakes. It is a pity that the Government originally watered down so much the recommendation of the Sinclair Committee which would have encouraged

  589
  the Corporation to undertake much more risky developments in the new countries. To have had an equity type of financial arrangement, would have been more suitable. There is a great need for this kind of development to be undertaken by the C.D.C.
  Some hon. Members opposite chided my right hon. Friend a little for the fact that as one of the initiators of this Corporation he encouraged it in new ventures, some of which in the end were not successful. It was inevitable at that stage. There were bound to be great difficulties. But it is unfortunate that the C.D.C. now plays so financially safe. I do not think that it is the Corporation's fault. I think that it is the Government's responsibility to give it the kind of financial framework which will allow it to do this kind of thing.
  The hon. Member for Harborough (Mr. Farr) rebuked my right hon. Friend for having grandiose ideas about what the C.D.C. should go on to do. The hon. Gentleman said he was very much afraid of this happening. Then the hon. Gentleman himself went on to urge on the Government that they should raise the capital authority of the Corporation from £130 million to £250 million. My right hon. Friend would never dream of being as grandiose as that. What my right hon. Friend was suggesting was something very much more modest and more cautious. I am sure that with the increased geographical scope of the Corporation under the Bill it is important that it should have an opportunity to increase gradually its financial resources to undertake that sort of work.
  I should like to endorse very strongly the case made by my right hon. Friend that the Corporation should be enabled to operate, if asked to do so, in India, Pakistan and Ceylon. I thought that the arguments advanced by the hon. Member for Liverpool, Kirkdale (Mr. N. Pannell) about the situation in the Federal Republic of Cameroon, apart from their own force in relation to that situation there, underlined the case made by my right hon. Friend. It will surely be a rather anomalous situation that the Commonwealth Development Corporation will be enabled, as I believe it should be enabled, to give assistance in this development in the Cameroons, now a
  590
  foreign country, although it will be prevented by Statute from doing it inside a Commonwealth country. I hope that when we seek to bring this matter forward in Committee the Government by that time will have had time to consider the matter and will look at this proposal sympathetically.
  My right hon. Friend said that one of the remarkable features of the C.D.C.'s operations was the amount of good will it engendered wherever it worked. I can confirm that this is true in what is now West Cameroon. It seemed to me that the work of the Cameroon Development Corporation under the auspices of the C.D.C. was perhaps the most important single thing that this country has done in that part of Africa.
  I think that there would be very wide support for the plea made by the hon. Member for Kirkdale that any adjustments which finally have to be made in the preference on bananas should take place sufficiently gradually to safeguard the welfare of the people of that part of the Cameroons, with whom we have been very closely associated over a very long time.
  Another suggestion I want to put to the Government in connection with the extended operations of the C.D.C. is this. The Government should look to the staffing of our High Commissions in the Commonwealth countries in which the C.D.C. will now be able to begin new projects. Not only in relation to the C.D.C, but in relation to our aid policies generally, there is a good deal to be said for having on the staff of a High Commission in a developing country someone whom I suppose might be called a technical assistance attaché. It is important to have someone on the staff who is particularly qualified in the problems of economic and technical assistance and who can ensure that, as far as possible, expert consideration is given to the needs of the developing countries and that there is expert representation of those needs back here in London.
  The hon. Member for Devon, North (Mr. Thorpe) made a plea for a bigger allocation of Commonwealth investment in the developing countries. I remind him that Canada has engaged in very substantial investment in the Warsak Dam in Pakistan. I very much agree with his point, but I think one should pay fair

  591
  tribute to what has been done by some of the other more developed Commonwealth countries.
  I want to say a few words about the C.D. and W. proposals in the Bill. I was glad to hear from the Under-Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations that the fact that the Bill leaves out research funds in the amendments it makes does not mean that money will not go on being spent on research in the colonial territories. This is now to be undertaken by the D.T.C. presumably under its votes and without need for statutory provision.
  I am puzzled about the general provisions of C.D. and W. in the Bill. The Under-Secretary said that what was being proposed was a three-year extension of C.D. and W. According to my calculations, what is being proposed is only a two-year extension, and instead of ending in 1964 it will end in 1966.
  Mr. Tilney: I thought that I explained that there was an overlap so that the territories could plan ahead.
  Mr. Thomson: I understood that, but the practical effect of the Bill is to put forward a two-year extension in the operation of the C.D. and W. arrangements. This is the first time, certainly for many years, that such a limited extension has been proposed. Normally the extensions have been for five years, and I think that we need a more adequate explanation than we have had from the Government why it is for only two years in this case instead of for the normal four- or five-year period ahead. The Minister assured us, so I gathered, that there is no intention of bringing these funds to a close. I think that we need some indication why the Government have suddenly chosen to do this on a shorter term basis than on the longer term basis which has been the usual thing.
  I would remind the Minister that one of the reasons for doing this on a five-year basis under previous Acts was that the colonial territories were supposed to operate development plans on a five-year basis. What are they going to do now when in fact they can only look to March, 1966?
  Like the hon. Member for Harborough, I want to find out why the annual loan sanction is being reduced from £25 million
  592
  to £20 million. Is this because it is assumed that there will now be fewer territories entitled to these loans and therefore we can drop the annual ceiling? It looks to me from the figures that for the extra two years there will be only an extra £5 million in total loan sanction as against £40 million which has been the normal annual increase allowable. This seems a very substantial drop, even allowing for the fact that the number of colonial territories during these two years is likely to be less than it is at present. The needs of these territories are particularly great because so many of them are grant-aided territories. My hon. Friend the Member for West Lothian (Mr. Dalyell) emphasised the educational needs. These are only one of many needs that affect these territories.
  The grant-aided territories are in a specially difficult and complex position in relation to C.D. and W. grants. As I understand it, in the past the Treasury have been very unwilling to give consent to C.D. and W. grants which would not be self-financing by the end of the normal five-year period because at that point it would mean an increase in the grant in aid. I gather that the Colonial Office in its ingenuity has got round this in the past by giving the Colonial Territories an assurance that they will in fact go on under C.D. and W. getting the necessary financial assistance required to meet deficits on current expenditure. What will happen about this if we have now only a two-year period ahead of us?
  I think that another thing that we ought to do is to take rather a fresh look at the whole operation of C.D. and W. grants and loans in relation to the changed nature and much smaller number of Colonial Territories.
  I hope that the Government will say that the shorter period will be used to take a fresh look at this method of giving economic assistance. As the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies knows, I am as much in favour of assistance being on as generous a scale as possible as anybody else, and I am wholly against a reduction in the number of Colonial Territories meaning a commensurate reduction in the financial help given. Looking at the financial help given to Colonial Territories over recent years and comparing one with

  593
  the other, one finds some very odd figures. If we look at the amount of help per head of the population given to different Colonial Territories we find that British Guiana, for some reason, has been receiving tree times as much per head as other Caribbean territories. British Guiana is as under-developed a colonial territory as one could find, but it is no more under-developed than Dominica or one or two other West Indian Islands.
  Malta receives four times as much per head of the population as the British West Indies as a whole. As the Under-secretary knows, the West Indians at the moment are feeling rather aggrieved that Malta seems to be receiving special concessions in connection with Commonwealth immigration which are not given to West Indian territories. If they began to look more closely at these figures they might be even more disturbed.
  The Malta figures are extremely interesting. Nobody grudges economic help to Malta, but in the years before Nigeria became independent Malta was receiving 150 times more aid per head of the population than that great West African country. The odd thing is that Malta, with a population of 300,000 was receiving more total aid in those years than Nigeria was receiving altogether.
  I am as guilty as anyone in the House of pressing for help for particular territories, and I am not arguing that there are not in some cases good reasons for the distribution of aid having substantial variations, but over the years a pattern has been established gradually which is not necessarily relevant to changing circumstances. All I argue is that the Government should begin to give some attention to the way in which the pattern of Colonial assistance falls in the remaining dependent territories.
  I am sure that my hon. Friend the Member for Anglesey (Mr. C. Hughes) is absolutely right that as the number of dependent territories shrinks it is tremendously important that some of the smaller territories, very often forgotten and overshadowed by events in other parts of the Commonwealth, should begin to receive more attention and concern from the House of Commons than they have received in the past. My hon. Friend the
  594
  Member for Anglesey could well be called the hon. Member for St. Helena. That small island has good reason to be grateful to him for the continued concern which he has shown in the House for its needs since he visited it a number of years ago.
  We on this side of the House welcome the main features of the Bill. The Under-secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations called it a hybrid Bill. I am inclined to call it in some ways a hotchpotch Bill. While we like the main proposal in it we do not believe that the proposals relating to C.D. and W. are any substitute for a fresh and radical look at the level of our economic assistance to countries of the Commonwealth, both independent and dependent.
  10.24 p.m.
  The Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies (Mr. Nigel Fisher): I know that most hon. Members present would agree with me that this is perhaps the most important piece of Commonwealth legislation, certainly for the Colonies, that we shall consider here during the next two or three years, because upon it depends the financial aid, apart from grant-in-aid of administration, for the economic development of these territories for the next three years. Some of the colonial territories depend absolutely upon this Bill for any aid which they will receive and they do not get aid from any other source. It is, therefore, an immensely important piece of legislation for those territories for many years ahead.
  I could have wished, like the hon. Member for Dundee, East (Mr. G. M. Thomson) that the total for which the Bill provides could have been double or treble the figure which I have now to recommend to the House, but I think that we must recognise the difficulties of Treasury Ministers, and also the difficulties of the British taxpayer who has to pay these bills in the end. We are all very much inclined to ask for more and more money for the things in which we are interested, and tonight we here are all interested in the Commonwealth, and feel deeply and sincerely about it. But there are other people who are interested in roads, housing, hospitals, and so on, and we cannot go on asking for everything and, at the same time, hope for lower taxation. So I think that I must repeat that argument in fairness to the Treasury.

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  I should also like to say how grateful I am to my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House who, in this very crowded period of the Session, has found time for this Bill—even a little late in the evening—because it is important, quite apart from the C.D.C. aspect, which is mostly what we have been considering tonight. I was very anxious to take the Bill in this Session so as to give the Colonial Territories the advance authority which they must have to be able to plan their development programmes ahead. That is, as my hon. Friend explained, the reason for the overlap between the Bill and the end of the 1959 to 1964 C.D. and W. legislation.
  I was very glad of the welcome given to the new C.D.C. part of the Bill, and I would say to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Dundee, West (Mr. Strachey) that some of us, including my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations and myself, pressed very hard for this, too, when we were on the back benches. We are very glad that we have been here to see the fruition of the project. I am very grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for his tribute to the C.D.C. I noted his criticism and that of my hon. Friend the Member for Harborough (Mr. Farr) that the C.D.C. does not have enough money.
  I do not really agree with my hon. Friend's economics when he says that if we revolve a 6d. and make it do its work over and over again it remains only a 6d. in the effect it produces. I do not think that this can be right. That is one of my arguments, in fact, that a steadily increasing part of the C.D.C. investment nowadays is financed by its own funds. We still have a good margin. I think that my hon. Friend mentioned it in opening the debate. At the end of 1962 the total outstanding Treasury advances amounted to £92 million. So there is a good margin for new borrowings at present, and the C.D.C. Report does bring out this trend, to which I referred, of greater self-sufficiency in financing.
  Mr. Strachey: It is for that reason that I proposed no raising of the ceiling. I should have thought it unnecessary yet—till we come to it.
  Mr. Fisher: I must have got that wrong. It must have been my hon. Friend the Member for Harborough. I am sorry if I associated the right hon. Gentleman with that point.
  I do not take all the credit to which the right hon. Gentleman referred when speaking of the Government's excellent record over the C.D.C, but it is the Government who appointed the men who run it so well, and I think that we must have a little credit for that. It is a trend started under Lord Reith's chairmanship and developed under his successor, Lord Howick. We must congratulate the Corporation because over the last three years it has produced investment sums of £5 million a year from sources other than the Exchequer, and there is every reason to suppose that that level will be maintained or even increased in the future.
  The right hon. Gentleman—and, I think that the hon. Member for Devon, North (Mr. Thorpe) made the same point—spoke of the C.D.C's partners in the territories. It does not finance every project unaided, and that means that its money goes further than it would if it had to find everything for every scheme. As my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State said, when a project is operating successfully and does not need any further help, it is often possible to sell it.
  We have had many examples of this in Nigeria, with a fishing company in Tristan da Cunha, and with a fruit company in British Honduras. There has been a very recent example in Malaya, where the Malaya Borneo Building Society has operated so efficiently that the C.D.C., in response to local demand, is now able to market locally no less than £600,000 worth of its shares in the society. This, of course, makes the proceeds available for re-investment in another project. It is a very good trend, and it is making more money available from sources other than the Exchequer all the time.
  The right hon. Gentleman drew attention to the fact that the C.D.C. does not operate throughout the whole Commonwealth, and he mentioned particularly the under-developed countries not covered by the Bill, India, Pakistan and Ceylon. This is an interesting point which has not been mentioned before. We felt it best to restore to the Corporation the power to invest in the countries where

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  it originally had operated, and this was the sort of scheme on which we worked. In itself, it will, I think, give the Corporation a very big new task and large new fields in which to operate.
  I do not know whether it would wish to take on, in addition, such a large field as the whole of the Indian sub-continent. It may already act as managing agent and perform this kind of advisory function in any independent Commonwealth country, including India and Pakistan, so that its specialised experience and advice is available to all those countries. I can have a word with the chairman on this matter, but it has not, I believe, been seriously considered hitherto that we should do more than extend its operations to the countries where the Corporation operated originally in 1948 when the first Act was introduced.
  The hon. Member for Devon, North spoke of the desirability of other great Commonwealth countries helping us in this excellent work. I am very keen on this and I should be delighted if some of the great Commonwealth countries would join more fully with us at the giving end. Many of them do a great deal, but I hope that some of them will read what the hon. Gentleman said.
  The hon. Member referred also to the question of the tying of grants. Colonial development and welfare is, of course, tied to a certain extent nowadays, and I think that that is probably right. Most aid-providing countries do tie their loans and grants, and this in itself handicaps British suppliers. I think it only fair to give our exporters some help in our own Commonwealth, and also, of course, there is the balance of payments aspect which we cannot overlook.
  Mr. Thorpe: May I correct what is, perhaps, a misunderstanding? I was not really complaining about C.D. and W. I was merely praising the C.D.C. system under which there is no tying of capital and saying that I hoped that this would be allowed to continue.
  Mr. Fisher: I am grateful for that correction.
  I should be glad if no country tied any of its aid at all. That is an objective towards which we should like to move.
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  But, in the interests of both our own producers and the balance of payments, I think that, while other countries tie, we have to do a certain amount of it. Even in colonial development and welfare—I realise that the hon. Gentleman did not raise this point—we only tie the imported element. All local services are, naturally, left to the territory.
  I know about the Nandi Salient, but, if I may, I would rather not say anything about it tonight. Perhaps I may be allowed to write to the hon. Gentleman, or speak to him about it very soon. I am not quite ready to say anything now, if he will forgive me.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Kirkdale (Mr. N. Pannell) spoke about bananas in the Cameroons. I am rather worried about this. I thought that I had covered every point before I came into the Chamber, but I had not thought of this one. As my hon. Friend knows, no decision has yet been taken. The question of Commonwealth Preference does not properly arise under the Bill. I am sorry that I cannot say more about this tonight. I have carefully noted what my hon. Friend has said, but it is not a subject upon which I am well briefed. I know less about it than does my hon. Friend and for that reason I prefer not to make a fool of myself in front of him.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Harborough and the hon. Member for Dundee, East both referred to the amount of colonial development and welfare money. My hon. Friend answered it, I thought, in anticipation of the debate when he opened. Since the date of the last Act in 1959, nine territories have become independent, three more will do so in August, when Malaysia comes into existence, and others—like Kenya, Zanzibar, Malta and, perhaps, British Guiana and the Little Seven in the Eastern Caribbean—are likely to become independent during the life of this Act.
  There is also the fact that research and technical assistance are now provided by the Department of Technical Co-operation and, therefore, are financed through other sources on the Vote of that Department. There is the further consideration, which was referred to in another context, that the Bill is to operate for three years

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  instead of five years. When these three factors are taken together, it is true to say that we are providing a good deal more money than we did under the 1959 Act. Not only is the proportion of grant to loan higher, which is important for the smaller territories, but the total represents an increase of 28 per cent. That is not at all bad. I am not ashamed of it and I hope that hon. Members will accept that this is a large increase for the territories.
  The hon. Member for West Lothian (Mr. Dalyell) spoke about books for schools. I am advised that quite a lot is being done under the cheap books scheme and under technical assistance schemes, both, of which are the concern of the Department of Technical Co-operation. I will certainly draw the hon. Member's remarks to the attention of my hon. Friend the Secretary for Technical Co-operation. I have no doubt that the C.D.C. will also note what he has said, but under its terms of reference the Corporation cannot give assistance direct to educational institutions. I will, however, draw attention to the hon. Member's comments about investing in schemes for the production of paper.
  Mr. Dalyell: Surely, the production could be encouraged of, say, jotter paper and writing paper for schools.
  Mr. Fisher: I am not familiar with that, but I will see that the point is raised.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Worcester (Mr. Walker), with whom I have great sympathy because I remember advocating it myself, referred to the multilateral scheme of insurance in the Commonwealth. That is now being considered by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development. Therefore, it cannot yet, I am glad to say, be classified among the list of lost causes.
  My hon. Friend also complained of the total of British Government aid overseas. I was not sure about some of his figures. The latest estimates which I have for 1962–63 give a total of £160 million of Government aid alone. We had expected the figure to be a good deal more, and if all the commitments which we had undertaken bad been drawn upon by overseas Governments, it would have been more. It frequently happens that they spend more slowly than they expect
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  and, therefore, they draw less aid in a year than we have provided for them.
  It is difficult to say what will be the precise figure for 1963–64, for the same reason that what we are committed to provide and what we shall be called upon to provide may in the result be different. It seems safe to say, however, that during the next three years the total of Government aid will probably range between £180 million and £220 million a year.
  It is quite a big figure. My right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Wirral (Mr. Selwyn Lloyd) when Chancellor of the Exchequer, put a ceiling of £180 million on overseas aid in July, 1962, and we have actually been below that amount up to now. But I hope we shall spend more—considerably more—in the next three years. That is a trend which I am sure, subject to the balance of payments, we all want to see encouraged.
  The hon. Member for Anglesey (Mr. C. Hughes) mentioned the smaller territories. I am glad that he did so, because he takes so much interest in them. He also knows my own keen interest in them. I think that they will do quite well under the Bill. I have done my best for them. We have had long arguments about allocations to the smaller territories and I have been a very keen advocate of what he has said.
  I hope that St. Helena, in particular, will not get a smaller territorial allocation, but it has not done too badly for a tiny island. It has had £635,000 in C.D. and W. assistance since the war, which is not bad in that context, as the hon. Member knows. But I am conscious that a great deal remains to be done and I promise him that I shall not forget St. Helena—not that he will allow me to do so.
  The hon. Member for Dundee, East seemed to think that the administration of these funds was too scattered. He suggested that we should in some way integrate C.D.C. and C.D. and W. funds into a more co-ordinated pattern. But they are two quite separate sources of finance, administered quite differently and intended for quite different purposes. The C.D.C. is purely for commercial purposes and is supposed to earn a return and break even. C.D. and W. is quite different. It is designed for social and not commercial purposes.
  Mr. G. M. Thomson: I was not arguing that they should be integrated. I suggested that it would be worth looking at the possibility of C.D.C. being allowed to act as agent for the use of some of the C.D. and W. funds.
  Mr. Fisher: I do no know whether it would be suitable to do that but I will ask about it. I am sorry that I misunderstood the point. The purposes of the two are so different that I am not sure this could be done, but perhaps they could well be combined financially. That has often been done. It does reduce the rate of interest if one has combined a C.D.C. and a C.D. and W. scheme for the same project.
  The hon. Member also made what has become a stock criticism from the Opposition Front Bench, about one man doing two jobs, and he criticised if not my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State then, by implication, the Prime Minister for having combined these two posts. It is not for me to comment on that, but the hon. Member complained of the great delays which he claims this combination of jobs under one Secretary of State has caused.
  There has been absolutely no delay in the case of the C.D.C. In fact, the extension of C.D.C. was the very first announcement my right hon. Friend made in July last year after he was given both posts. It was an instant decision that he took.
  Mr. G. M. Thomson: It is twelve months since then.
  Mr. Fisher: No. We have had a lot of difficulty in working out the right figures in the Bill and the delay in bringing the Bill to the House has not prejudiced anyone, certainly not the Colonies.
  Perhaps I might send Dr. Jagan a copy of the hon. Member's remarks on per capita aid to British Guiana. I should like Dr. Jagan to know how well the hon. Member thinks we have done. I would also like to send the hon. Member's remarks to Dr. Olivier, in Malta. We have our special obligations to Malta, due to the defence rundown there, and I do not apologise for doing so well for Malta.
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  I have mentioned, if not completely answered, most of the important questions raised in the debate, and I ask the House, with confidence, to give a Second Reading to this quite uncontroversial but really most important Bill.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Bill accordingly read a Second time.
  Bill committed to a Committee of the whole House.—[Mr, I, Fraser.]
  Committee Tomorrow.

  COMMONWEALTH DEVELOPMENT [MONEY]
  [Queen's Recommendation signified]
  Considered in Committee under Standing Order No. 84 (Money Committees).
  [Sir WILLIAM ANSTRUTHER-GRAY in the Chair]
  Resolved,
  That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to extend the area of operation and alter the name of the Colonial Development Corporation, and to amend sections 1, 4 and 6 of the Colonial Development and Welfare Act 1959, it is expedient to authorise any such increase in the sums which, under the Overseas Resources Development Act 1959 or the Colonial Development and Welfare Act 1959, are authorised to be issued out of the Consolidated Fund, paid into the Exchequer, raised by borrowing or defrayed out of moneys provided by Parliament as is attributable to provisions of the said Act of the present Session—

  (a) raising from £315 million to £340 million the limit imposed by section 4 of the Colonial Development and Welfare Act 1959 on the aggregate amount of the payments which may be made out of moneys provided by Parliament for the purpose of schemes under section 1 of that Act;

  (b) replacing the limit imposed by the said section 4 on the aggregate amount of loans under section 2 of the Colonial Development and Welfare Act 1959 which may be approved in any financial year, and raising from £100 million to £105 million the limit so imposed on the aggregate amount of all such loans;

  (c) amending the Overseas Resources Development Act 1959 or the Colonial Development and Welfare Act 1959 otherwise than in respect of the limits imposed by those Acts respectively on the aggregate amount outstanding in respect of advances to the Colonial Development Corporation or of the payments and loans mentioned in paragraphs (a) and (b) above.—[Mr. Fisher.]

  Resolution to be reported.
  Report to be received Tomorrow.

  INDUSTRIAL DEVELOPMENT, YORKSHIRE
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. I. Fraser.]
  10.46 p.m.
  Mr. Albert Roberts: After dealing with places all over the world, we now return to our own country and to my own county, Yorkshire. I am raising this Adjournment debate tonight because I feel that the President of the Board of Trade and the Parliamentary Secretary should consider what kind of industry and diversity of industry and population are required in my area. I know that the President of the Board of Trade is either a very popular or unpopular man, and in this case, as far as I am concerned, he is unpopular. I am concerned because I believe that the right policies are not being put in hand.
  The growth of industries because of their national importance matters locally as well as regionally. The Parliamentary Secretary knows why I am taking a special interest in the West Riding of Yorkshire. For generations we have had staple industries and we can boast that we have sustained the economy of the United Kingdom for a long time. At the moment, I believe, we are producing the biggest profits for the National Coal Board. Ours is a prolific coal field and employer-employee relationships are as good as any in the United Kingdom.
  But for years there has been a drift of population to the South and South-East and the Midlands and one is bound to be concerned for a constituency like mine and others in Yorkshire. We claim to be a development district. We are not crying out "Action stations". We well understand and sympathise with the greater unemployment in the North-East and Scotland and parts of Wales and Lancashire.
  The President of the Board of Trade has adopted a panic policy. He is trying to divert industry from Yorkshire to the development districts. If we are not asking for new industries, why should the President of the Board of Trade try to take away those that we have? The right hon. Gentleman has failed to take
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  cognisance of the arguments which have been put to him on this issue. He has dug his heels in and said that industry must be sent to the development districts. I do not disagree with that, but I believe that these industries should be sent from the South, from the South-East, and from the Midlands.
  The pattern of industry in Yorkshire is changing. If we are at all forward-looking, I believe that we must plan not for the next year or two, but for the next fifteen or twenty years. The West Riding is the most populous part of Yorkshire, yet there are only two people per acre. Land commands a terrific price in the Midlands and the South, but this state of affairs could have been avoided if, ever since 1951, consideration had been given to ensuring that there was a proper diversification of population and industry.
  Many towns in Yorkshire are losing their populations, among them Castle ford, Shipley, Mexborough, Sheffield, Halifax, York, Normanton, Barnsley and Wakefield. One has only to look at the figures issued by the Registrar General to realise this. We are not asking for new industries; we have developed our own industries, and yet the President of the Board of Trade is trying to take away our industries and send them to other parts of the country.
  At present, 110,000 men are employed in the mining industry in Yorkshire. Does the Parliamentary Secretary realise that within the next five years 20 per cent. of our manpower will be unable to find employment in the mining industry? Although the mining population is going down, the production of coal is going up. I am pleased about this, but what will happen to the young men and boys who will be unable to obtain work in the mines? Not long ago the Parliamentary Secretary told me that the Coal Board was taking care of its redundancy problems. Within the next six years two collieries in my constituency will close. What will happen to the boys who leave school and are unable to find work in the area?
  We have been told about opencast mining in the West Riding. Our countryside looks like a battlefield, and it has been like that since 1941. We therefore claim that we have a right

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  to receive some of these new growth industries, but the President of the Board of Trade says that these industries are ideal for the development districts.
  The heavy woollen industry is facing heavy competition from other sources. In places like Morley, Batley and Dewsbury the Board of Trade should give consideration to the pattern of industry likely to develop over the next few years. If we look at the pattern of employment we find that for 1961, dealing in thousands, in London and the south-eastern district it was 5,120, whereas in the West Riding it was 1,225. The percentage increase for London and the South-East was 12 per cent.; in the West Riding it was negligible. All the regions mentioned in the "Regional Pattern of Industry" have a figure above that of the West Riding with the exception of Wales, Scotland and the northern region.
  Why does the President of the Board of trade want to destroy viable industries in my county? I know that a new plastic industry has started from scratch and is being developed, but we have no electronics industry and will have no motor industry in Yorkshire now that it is closing down in Doncaster and going to the North-West. We are dependent on the traditional industries. We are afraid that sufficient consideration is not being given to what is likely to happen in the near future.
  I was alarmed when I looked at the District Bank Review, which deals with some figures concerning the regions I have mentioned. This no doubt was after spending a terrific amounton research. It tells us that vehicles, engineering and electrical goods industries are situated in the South and the Midlands. In the East and West Riding, Northern Scotland and the northern region they are put down as negligible. I claim that in the coal zone alone in the West Riding 30,000 females are prepared to take jobs if they could be made available. I can give figures concerning Pontefract, Castleford, Barnsley, Rotherham and other areas, If the Parliamentary Secretary is interested I shall be willing to supply him with details.
  I shall not be acrimonious. I am sure that the Parliamentary Secretary will not disagree that I am trying to fight
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  for something which is important to the well-being of the West Riding. It is time that real consideration and planning were given to this matter, not that panic action should be taken just because there has been a rapid increase in unemployment in certain parts of the country. By all means those places must be helped. There is nothing more demoralising than unemployment. I realise this and I also realise that if more consideration were given to proper planning it would be seen that the kind of growth industries to which I have referred should be allowed more or less equally to spread throughout the country instead of being allowed to collect in one or two parts.
  I hope that the hon. Gentleman will accept the points I have put forward and encourage our industries as much as possible. At least the Minister has no right to upset industries where employers and employees work well together and where the industries are viable. He has no right to tell such people that they must go elsewhere. My challenge to him is that he must give this consideration. I am not concerned only with the present but with the future. When applications are made for I.D.C.s, the President of the Board of Trade and the Parliamentary Secretary should say to our own industries, "You are doing a good job and we will put nothing in the way to prevent your progress."
  11.1 p.m.
  Mr. George Jeger: The employment pattern in Yorkshire is rather similar to that which occurred recently in the North-East. May I draw attention to the figures given only two days ago in the House? The north-eastern unemployment figure was 5 per cent. At that time, two days ago, the unemployment figure in a black spot in my constituency, Thorne, was 6·6 per cent. The national average is 2·4 per cent.
  I appeal to the Minister to do something along the lines suggested by my hon. Friend the Member for Normanton (Mr. A. Roberts) in recognising the changing pattern of industry in Yorkshire, taking account of the diversity of industry there and making some effort to deal with a black spot such as Thorne and to a lesser extent, Goole, by encouraging new industry to go there, or if that cannot be done, by giving en-

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  couragement and assistance to existing smaller industries, so that they may be able to expand and to provide the local unemployed people with the work which they are anxious to do.
  A little while ago, on one of the 15 occasions that I have raised local unemployment in the House this year, I was told by the President of the Board of Trade and the Minister of Labour that the unemployed of Thorne could go a dozen miles away to Doncaster where there were better opportunities of finding work. The latest report of the local employment committee says:
  "There are very few openings in Doncaster and little improvement is to be expected there."
  In the light of that, I should like the Minister to review the consideration which was given to the local position a little while ago, when my Question was answered, and to see whether anything can be done, either separately in Thorne and Goole or by combining the two into a development district and dealing with them as a concerted whole.
  Recently, special consideration was given to shipbuilding in the North-East. We can do shipbuilding in Goole and Thorne; it is done, but far too little, and far too many would-be shipbuilders are unemployed. I can devote only a moment or two to this issue, by courtesy of the hon. Member, and I want to give him time for a full reply, but I hope that he will give Thorne and Goole special consideration in the same way as it was given to the North-East.
  11.5 p.m.
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade (Mr. David Price): I very much welcome the opportunity to reply to some of the arguments advanced by the hon. Members for Normanton (Mr. A. Roberts) and Goole (Mr. Jeger).
  The hon. Member for Normanton gave us notice that the Adjournment debate would embrace the vast subject of industrial development in the whole of Yorkshire. Although my own county, Hampshire, at cricket recently, disposed of Yorkshire in three days, I should not dare attempt to discuss the industrial problems of Yorkshire in 10 minutes, and I shall confine my remarks to the West Riding and particularly to that part of it in the neighbourhood of Normanton.
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  Even with this attempt to limit the subject, it is obviously quite impossible to do justice to it in the time available or, indeed, to answer all the hon. Member's questions.
  The hon. Member complained that in the Board of Trade we are unreasonable in refusing industrial development certificates for projects in the West Riding and that we are depriving Yorkshire of its own industry by steering the expansion of local firms to other parts of the country. He and I have discussed these matters together on a number of occasions, and if I have not so far convinced him of the rightness of our policies, I hope that I shall be able to do so tonight.
  In terms of actual unemployment, the West Riding has few problems compared with the less favoured parts of the country. I recognise, and will make reference to, the particular problems of Goole in a moment. I will give the House some recent comparative figures on unemployment to illustrate this. In the West Riding in May, 1963, the average rate of workers wholly unemployed was 1·6 per cent., compared with a national average of 2·3 per cent. and with rates in the North-East of 4·7 per cent., in Scotland of 4·5 per cent., on Lower Merseyside of 5·7 per cent., and in Ireland of 7·8 per cent. These are our major problem areas, and I am sure that the House would agree that they must have the first call on new industrial projects.
  I have great sympathy with the hon. Gentleman's suggestion that we should think these things fifteen or twenty years ahead. I agree that that is a very good thing if one can do it, but one must give the priority where the unemployment actually is now and not where it might be fifteen years ahead. Any hon. Member who found himself in my position would make the same priority.
  I realise that the West Riding is a large area and that the average figure may hide local problems. Let me break down my general proposition in some detail. In the main industrial centres of the West Riding, with their well diversified industrial structures, the rates in May were as follows. The House will forgive me if I reel off some figures quickly: Bradford, 1·7 per cent.; Barnsley, 2·5 per cent.; Doncaster, 2·3 per cent.; Halifax, 1·2 per cent.; Huddersfield, 0·9 per cent.;

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  Leeds, 1·4 per cent.; Rotherham, 2·1 per cent.; Sheffield, 1·7 per cent., and Wakefield, 1·2 per cent. Nevertheless, we realise that the West Riding has its industrial and its social problems.
  Mr. Jeger: What about Thorne?
  Mr. Price: I will deal with Thorne separately.
  The labour force of the two traditional industries—coal and wool textiles—has declined over the last decade. We recognise that. But this fall in employment has not caused any significant rise in unemployment generally. Therefore, we are entitled to assume that people coming out of lost jobs have been absorbed by the prosperous and often newer industries of the main industrial centres—the hon. Member for Goole (Mr. Jeger) will notice the phrase "main industrial centres"—which I have just listed. Nor should there be any likelihood of serious unemployment arising in future.
  Now, coal. The Yorkshire coalfield, as the hon. Member for Normanton has rightly observed, is an efficient and very profitable one, the largest in the country in terms of employment, the second largest in terms of output. It presents no major problems or major difficulties of redundancies arising from closures. Indeed, it is a receiving area for manpower displaced by closures elsewhere in the country. Lord Robens has spoken recently of the brighter future ahead for the coal industry, and I think that we are entitled to assume that the future of the Yorkshire coalfield seems assured for a number of years to come. I say a number of years because in all these extractive industries it is very difficult to speculate when we get on to the hon. Gentleman's 15- to 20-year cycle.
  The wool textile industry, which to many of us is almost synonymous with the words "the West Riding", is Britain's sixth largest exporter whose annual sales abroad consistently reach between £140 million and £150 million. It is true that the production of the wool textile industry was slightly lower in 1962 than in the two previous years, but this year all the signs to date are upwards. In the longer term, the industry should be able at least to maintain its position and to improve its productivity. It is true that this may well be achieved with a continuing slow decline in employment.
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  I want hon. Members to know that we are aware of this.
  The hon. Gentleman mentioned the question of jobs for women. Another problem in the West Riding, which again we recognise, is the shortage of jobs for women and girls, particularly in the smaller towns. We know, too, that thousands of women and girls have to travel long distances to work daily to get to the major industrial centres. For this reason, we have welcomed—I ask the hon. Gentleman to recognise this—the introduction of female employing industry, and I can assure the House tonight that we shall continue to take a favourable view of new projects in the West Riding where labour is predominantly female.
  There was the question, too—the presence and voice of the hon. Member for Goole tonight draws our attention particularly to it—of pockets of unemployment within the general picture which I have presented to the House. We recognise that pockets of comparatively high unemployment exist in places such as Thorne, which I think is the most serious one, Maltby, the Hemsworth group of employment exchanges, and the Mexborough group.
  These are mainly comparatively small places within travel-to-work distance of larger and more prosperous centres of employment, but we realise that such towns have a need for suitable new industry. I also recognise that the hon. Member's problem in Thorne is probably the most serious of all I have mentioned. In the time available I cannot give particular attention to it, but I should like him to know that we are aware of it and I should be happy to discuss it with him some time in the near future.
  The House knows that, subject to the overriding needs of the development districts, we are prepared to approve suitable developments in these places. We do and shall continue to keep a careful watch on them, but any development must be related to available labour. If the shortage is of work for females it is no good encouraging heavy industry to set up in a town, and conversely.
  The hon. Member has said that we have encouraged West Riding firms to move away to other parts of the country. It is true that some West Riding firms have established factories in Northern

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  Ireland, in the North-East and in Scotland, for example, Jeremiah Ambler, of Bradford, and Hepworth and Grandage, of Bradford. It is not unreasonable to expect expanding firms in these prosperous towns to make some contribution towards our distribution of industry policy. The moves made by these firms have, of course, been to their own advantage by providing them with ample supplies of labour compared to the labour problems which many of them faced in the West Riding, as well as being to the advantage of the areas to which they have moved.
  We must hope and expect that such movements of expanding Yorkshire industry to areas of greater need will continue. It is only by such means that the problem of the development districts can be solved. I am sure that the House would agree that it would be scarcely reasonable to demand that the Midlands and London could or should supply all the expansion that is needed for the development districts. On the other hand, even in these prosperous areas we have approved local-based expansion which could not be expected to move elsewhere and we have welcomed reasonable new developments in places where there is a special need.
  To put the hon. Member's complaints into perspective, the House may be interested to have information about the issue of industrial development certificates for Yorkshire in the period from 1st January, 1960, to 31st May, 1963. In that period we have refused industrial development certificates in only 13 cases in the West Riding and in three of these cases approval was subsequently granted. In the same period we have issued 736 certificates for the West Riding. The jobs arising from these certificates represented about 0·8 per cent. of the estimated working population of the West Riding in 1962.
  Within the hon. Member's constituency, we know of the forthcoming closure of the "West Riding" Colliery and of the British Railways depot and sidings, but we understand that the workers in both cases will be offered suitable employment near at hand and that in neither case are redundancies likely. Employ-
  612
  ment in the new colliery at Kellingley, not far from Normanton, will probably build up, I understand, to as much as 2,400 by about 1966. The completion of the Sheffield-Leeds motorway, which will make the West Riding quickly accessible from other major industrial areas, will be of great significance to West Riding industrial development. My right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport has told the House that he hopes that preparation of the Don Viaduct, and some substantial part of the road works, could be completed in readiness to start construction in the financial year 1964–65.
  While the need for new jobs in the West Riding cannot be compared with the need in the development districts, we realise that there is a big need for improvement in and renewal of the social infrastructure. In some places this need is comparable with that of the older industrial areas which form so much of our development districts. Thus I acknowledge, and my colleagues in the Government do, that the West Riding generally is an area where for a long time there have been problems of slum clearance and redevelopment, and, while much has been done, much still needs to be done, and my right hon. Friend the Minister of Housing and Local Government is determined it shall be done.
  Therefore, I would say, in conclusion, that the solution of the problems of the West Riding lies not in a change of our general policy towards the issue of industrial development certificates, which I hope I have shown hon. Members is rather more reasonable than the hon. Member for Normanton suggested, or in a change of our policy of steering new industry wherever possible to development districts. The solution will lie in the general upturn of the economy which will result in a higher level of activity of firms in the West Riding generally as in firms throughout the country.
  This, I believe, is beginning to take place, steadily but surely, on the basis of expansion without inflation rather than on a basis of boom and bust.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Adjourned accordingly at sixteen minutes past Eleven o'clock.

  AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD
    Dairy Farmers, South-West
    Dairy Farmers, South-West
    Deficiency Payments
    Deficiency Payments
    Tuberculosis Reactors
    Tuberculosis Reactors
    Insecticides
    Insecticides
  MINISTRY OF DEFENCE
    Army and Royal Air Force (Recruiting)
    Army and Royal Air Force (Recruiting)
  BRITISH ARMY
    Military Units, Scotland
    Military Units, Scotland
  SCOTLAND
    Prison Service
    Prison Service
    Technical Education (Day Release)
    Technical Education (Day Release)
    Nurses (Certificate of Education)
    Nurses (Certificate of Education)
    Probation Officers (Salaries)
    Probation Officers (Salaries)
    Dental Surgeons and Assistants
    Dental Surgeons and Assistants
    Aberdeen Royal Infirmary
    Aberdeen Royal Infirmary
    Housing
    Housing
    Prisoners (Outside Work)
    Prisoners (Outside Work)
    Prison Accommodation, North-East Scotland
    Prison Accommodation, North-East Scotland
    Hospitals (Deep X-Ray Equipment)
    Hospitals (Deep X-Ray Equipment)
    Fishing Limits
    Fishing Limits
    Mackenzie Report
    Mackenzie Report
    Speech Therapists
    Speech Therapists
    Sheriff Courts (Committee of Inquiry)
    Sheriff Courts (Committee of Inquiry)
    Certificates of Competency to Teach (Committee's Report)
    Certificates of Competency to Teach (Committee's Report)
    South Lochboisdale (Water Supply Scheme)
    South Lochboisdale (Water Supply Scheme)
    Crofts, Outer Hebrides
    Crofts, Outer Hebrides
    Isle of Eriskay (Water Supply Scheme)
    Isle of Eriskay (Water Supply Scheme)
  SHIPBUILDING
    Association of German Shipbuilders (Quota System)
    Association of German Shipbuilders (Quota System)
    Financial Assistance
    Financial Assistance
    Loans to Shipowners (Advisory Committee)
    Loans to Shipowners (Advisory Committee)
    Ship Repair Yards
    Ship Repair Yards
  ROADS
    Road Communications, North and South Wales
    Road Communications, North and South Wales
    M.4 (Service Areas, Datchet)
    M.4 (Service Areas, Datchet)
    M.5 (Remotely-Controlled Illuminated Warning Signs)
    M.5 (Remotely-Controlled Illuminated Warning Signs)
    Dogs
    Dogs
    M/
    M/
    Road Junctions, Greater London (Parking Restrictions)
    Road Junctions, Greater London (Parking Restrictions)
    Road Junction, Wombourn (Pedestrian Crossings)
    Road Junction, Wombourn (Pedestrian Crossings)
    Road Junction, West Kingsdown
    Road Junction, West Kingsdown
    Parking Meters (Revenue)
    Parking Meters (Revenue)
    Marlow Bridge
    Marlow Bridge
    Roundabout, Wembley
    Roundabout, Wembley
  TRANSPORT
    Road Traffic Act, 1962
    Road Traffic Act, 1962
    Motor Vehicles (Suppressors)
    Motor Vehicles (Suppressors)
    National Ports Council
    National Ports Council
  FISHERIES CONFERENCE
  FISHERIES CONFERENCE
  EUROPEAN ECONOMIC COMMUNITY
  EUROPEAN ECONOMIC COMMUNITY
  TRADE AND COMMERCE
    Tyres
    Tyres
    Paper-Making Industry (Exports to Australia)
    Paper-Making Industry (Exports to Australia)
  ROYAL NAVY
    H.M.S. "Diamond"
    H.M.S. "Diamond"
  EDUCATION
    School Leaving Age
    School Leaving Age
    Research Fund (Grants)
    Research Fund (Grants)
  ROYAL AIR FORCE
    Nursing Attendants
    Nursing Attendants
  MINISTRY OF AVIATION
    Air Corporations (Annual Reports)
    Air Corporations (Annual Reports)
  EMPLOYMENT
    International Labour Organisation
    International Labour Organisation
  PUBLIC BUILDING AND WORKS
    Silicone Wax Polishes
    Silicone Wax Polishes

Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Lichfield

LINGUISTS IN OVERSEAS TELEGRAM SERVICE
2.35 p.m.
THE EARL OF DUNDONALD: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government why the General Post Office, in their overseas telegram service from London, are unable to provide staff able and authorised to take down a telegram for France in French when equivalent foreign language facilities are available in other European capitals.]
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF TRANSPORT (LORD CHESHAM): My Lords, the present arrangements at the London overseas telegraph office do provide for acceptance, by telephone, of telegrams dictated in French or other foreign languages. It is often necessary for callers to spell the words in order to ensure accuracy. Assistance in French is, however, available at most times for callers who are unable to speak English. My right honourable friend's information is that these arangements are regarded as satisfactory by customers generally, and in these circumstances it is not considered that the additional cost of employing linguists at all hours, would be justified.
THE EARL OF DUNDONALD: My Lords, I am most grateful to my noble friend for his reply, but did he say that people who are able to take messages in French are available?
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, I said that they are normally available. The fact of the matter is that they are normally available during normal working hours on weekdays, and usually up
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to 10 p.m. at night and at week-ends. Obviously it is rather more difficult to have them available at all times.
THE EARL OF DUNDONALD: My Lords, I thank my noble friend for his reply.

SAFETY OF LIFE AT SEA
2.38 p.m.
LORD ELTON: My Lords, before asking the Question which stands in my name, I wish to disclose a certain degree of personal interest, in that I am a non-executive director of a company one of whose subsidiaries manufactures incombustible materials for ships. I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they can now announce an approximate timetable for the ratification, with the necessary consequential legislation of the International Convention for the Safety of Life at Sea, which has already been accepted by the U.S.A., France, Norway and nine other countries but cannot come into force until after the deposit of fifteen acceptances; whether they are aware that if and when Britain ratifies the Convention it is likely that the remaining signatures required will be speedily forthcoming; and whether they can give an assurance that, with or without ratification, British standards in both passenger and cargo ships, with particular reference to structural fire protection, will not in any respect be lower than those of U.S.A., Russia and Germany.]
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, the International Convention for the Safety of Life at Sea, 1960, will come into force twelve months after the date on which it has been accepted by the Governments of 15 countries, including 7 having each not less than one million gross tons of shipping. Thirteen countries have already accepted it, including 6 with over one million tons of shipping. It seems likely to come into force in the latter half of 1964. Domestic legislation to enforce the Convention should precede our ratification of it, but with the pressure there is in Parliamentary time I am not yet in a position to say when this legislation can

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be introduced. When the Convention come into force, ships of all nationalities may be required to comply with the standards it demands, if they visit countries that have ratified it. I have no information on whether the countries the noble Lord mentions will impose on their own shipping higher standards than the Convention requires.
LORD ELTON: My Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for his Answer, may I ask whether he realises that the delay—and there certainly seems to be a considerable delay with no definite terminus ad quern—is harmful to British reputation abroad and to British planning at home? I would ask whether he recalls that, when the noble Lords opposite were in power, Britain was among the first of nations to ratify the similar Convention in 1948.
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, I am aware of this position. I am also aware of the fact that legislation is required to give effect to our adherence to this Convention. I think that it would be an empty gesture to ratify this Convention without having the necessary power in law to enforce it in our country.
EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, what is the length of time the Government have had to consider this matter? Surely it is pretty considerable? Thirteen countries apparently have ratified, and I should have thought that a nation which, though perhaps not still the leading member, has had the reputation of being well in the leadership of this industry, ought to be the first to be able to give a lead to the rest of the world.
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, I can only say that the Convention was arrived at as a result of a conference in 1960, and that laws vary from country to country. Other countries may not have required legislation, but in this country that is the prime requisite, for which it has not yet been possible to find the necessary Parliamentary time.
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, can the noble Lord say whether he expects this to be a lengthy piece of legislation or a Bill of one or two clauses? In this important question of safety, I should have thought that, in spite of the pressure
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upon it, Parliament could well have found time to pass this legislation.
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, I believe that the legislation concerned will be somewhat complicated and detailed. There is also the question of drawing up the necessary detailed rules which will go with it.
LORD MORRISON OF LAMBETH: My Lords, is not three years rather a long time for the Government, having considered this matter, still not to have come to a final conclusion or introduced legislation? Is it because they prefer legislation irrelevant to the needs of our time—such as the London Government Bill?
LORD HAWKE: The Shops and Offices Bill.
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, I could have seen that one coming. I must agree that from 1960 until now seems a long time, but at the same time it is the responsibility of the Government to put through legislation in the order of priority in which they consider it should go.
EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, does it mean that the Government have really decided that they are not able to do this in their lifetime of office and are leaving it to some other Government to do?
LORD CHESHAM: No, my Lords; it certainly means nothing of the kind.
EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: In practice it does.
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, for the noble Earl's information, I think it has been said before that it is intended to ratify and adhere to this Convention as soon as the legislation can be put through.
EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: At what date?
LORD ELTON: My Lords, would the noble Lord, agree that the Government's delay in this extremely important affair provides further evidence of what has been suggested in this House before now: that, what with shipping, the railways, canals, roads and road accidents on his plate, the Minister of Transport has really too much to do? Can it be

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that it is because he has been doing unusually well lately in respect of safety on the roads that he is doing so poorly now in respect of safety at sea?
LORD CHESHAM: No, my Lords.
EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: Perhaps they are just tired.

TOXIC CHEMICALS AND WILD LIFE
2.43 p.m.
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, in view of the statement made in the House of Lords on June 17 that the official publication Chemicals for the Gardener has not been submitted to the Advisory Committee on Poisonous Substances, he will urgently consult the Government's advisers on wild life and in the light of their advice consider whether this publication should now be withdrawn.]
THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD (LORD ST. OSWALD): My Lords, the purpose of this advisory catalogue is Ito give guidance to gardeners in the proper use of pesticides. That is a useful and beneficial purpose: I should not care to frustrate it in any way without good reason. Such disputed chlorinated hydrocarbons as appear in the booklet have all been considered from the safety point of view by the Advisory Committee on Poisonous Substances used in Agriculture and Food Storage who have made recommendations for their safe use. The recommendations are reflected in the booklet which provides a means of making them known to gardeners.
Noble Lords will be aware that the use of some of these chemicals in cereal seed dressings has already been severely restricted and this action has greatly reduced bird deaths, but in view of the continuing concern expressed by the wild life societies that the other uses of these chemicals in gardens and in agriculture may be responsible for bird deaths, my right honourable friend has now asked the Advisory Committee to undertake a
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further examination taking into account recent evidence and to report to him. The question of whether the Government should take any further action will be decided in the light of that report. Any possible decision on the booklet would have to be a part of such considered action.
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for his extremely carefully worded statement. In asking him one question, I am glad that what he in fact thought a fortnight ago ought to be the case, and found was not the case, is now after all going to be the case. May I ask him, in particular, to draw the attention of the Committee, when considering this booklet, to the statement in the introduction which says:
" All these preparations have been considered for possible dangers to humans, domestic animals and wild life…So far as is known, none of the garden packs when used according to the directions is likely Ito be harmful to birds or other wild life in the garden."
Would they consider this definite statement in the light of the evidence of the slaughter of birds in gardens?
LORD ST. OSWALD: My Lords, undoubtedly this review will be absolutely comprehensive, and will, I am sure, cover every problem in which the noble Lord is interested.
THE EARL OF MANSFIELD: My Lords, arising out of the original reply, would the noble Lord say whether he has any idea when this further inquiry will be completed, whether it will be done before pesticides are used again later in the year?
LORD ST. OSWALD: My Lords, that has to be a matter for the Committee. One cannot give a Committee a time limit as to the period in which they carry out their review.
LORD HAWKE: My Lords, are the Government aware that the remaining birds in the gardens are quite sufficient to require a good deal of attention from most gardeners?
LORD HURCOMB: My Lords, arising out of what has been said, may I ask the noble Lord whether he will on this occasion fully and formally consult also the Nature Conservancy in this important matter?
LORD ST. OSWALD: My Lords, naturally the bodies which will be consulted are a matter for the Committee themselves; but, to my mind, it is inconceivable that the Nature Conservancy should not be among them. We should not stipulate to the Committee whom they are to consult. They are a highly responsible and learned body, and I am sure they will consult every body and every interest that could be consulted.
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, then why cannot the noble Lord ask the Committee to consult them?
LORD HURCOMB: My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether it is not the duty of every Minister to consult the Nature Conservancy on any matter of public importance which affects the conservation of nature or wild life? May I ask him also whether there is not some misapprehension in what has been said previously, that the Nature Conservancy has been consulted because some of its nominees happen to sit on the Committee to which he has referred? When he says that each of these individual poisons has been the matter of consideration by the Committee in the past, that process has, has it not, been considered over several years? The point now is that this booklet, with its extremely misleading preface, is what has caused the difficulty. I think, therefore, it is important that the Conservancy should have an opportunity of expressing their views as such upon the document as a whole and not merely through representation on a Committee which looks at individual substances.
LORD ST. OSWALD: My Lords, I am afraid I cannot accept the noble Lord's view that the booklet is misleading. However, I repeat that the Committee have been asked to carry out a very comprehensive review and I am perfectly certain that they will.
THE EARL OF SWINTON: My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord this question? While no doubt it would be improper for the Minister to give a direct order to the Committee as to whom they are to consult, surely there can be nothing to prevent the Minister himself from consulting the Nature Conservancy, receiving from them a full and considered report and then submitting that report to the Committee?
LORD ST. OSWALD: My Lords, I am perfectly certain that the Nature Conservancy will make their views known, and that those views will be considered by the Committee in this new review.
LORD MORRISON OF LAMBETH: My Lords, why cannot the noble Lord "come clean"? This is not a revolutionary proposition on the part of the noble Lord, Lord Hurcomb, who is himself, as a Director of the Nature Conservancy, a considerable expert in these matters; and, if my memory serves me aright, I think I had a hand in starting the Nature Conservancy. Surely the noble Lord, Lord St. Oswald, can say that either the Minister will invite the Nature Conservancy for their views or that they are at liberty to put their views, and that he will see that they are put before the Committee and the Minister. Really, it will not shake the foundations of the British Constitution if he goes that far. I would suggest to him that he should not be so nervous. Even a Parliamentary Secretary has a right to use his head on the Floor of the House. I invite him to use it and not to be so terrified of the pundits in Whitehall and his Minister.
THE EARL OF MANSFIELD: My Lords, what is the use of having a Nature Conservancy, as a supposedly official advisory body to the Government on matters concerning wild life, if that body is not to be officially consulted if questions like this arise?
LORD ST. OSWALD: My Lords, I really cannot go on repeating my absolute conviction that the Nature Conservancy will be consulted. I should have thought that that was contained in my assurance that the inquiry and the review would be comprehensive.
LORD MORRISON OF LAMBETH: My Lords, the Minister is now utterly convinced that the Conservancy will be consulted. Why cannot he say that he will see that they are. This really is petty, infantile, puerile—and I shall produce some more adjectives if I stand here longer. Why cannot the noble Lord, for whom we have a great respect (and we do not want to quarrel with him) say that he will see that the Conservancy's views are invited and will be put to the Committee, or to the Minister, or both?
LORD ST. OSWALD: My Lords, it seems to me that there would be a risk of offending the Committee by suggesting that the Nature Conservancy would not be among those they will consult. However, I will certainly bring to the notice of the Nature Conservancy the fact that the noble Lord suspects that they would not be consulted.
LORD MORRISON OF LAMBETH: My Lords, that is very naughty, because I was not going for the Committee but for the noble Lord. If he is now going to do what we want hire to do, that is fine; and I gather that he is. Why he could not have said so before, I do not know. Life would be much easier for the noble Lord if he would be more forthcoming on a point which is so obvious.
LORD HURCOMB: My Lords, I entertain no suspicions whatever of the noble Lord, and I am quite sure he means everything he said. But the simple point is that the Government, in all its Departments, has a duty, and I think I am right in saying a statutory duty, to consult the Nature Conservancy on anything which is within their province. My point simply was that we should like to feel that it was the Minister who would consult them and not merely leave it to be done second-hand by the Committee.
LORD ST. OSWALD: My Lords, my right honourable friend is in close touch with the Nature Conservancy, although as the noble Lord, Lord Hurcomb is aware, the Nature Conservancy in fact come under the Department of my noble friend the Leader of the House.
LORD DOUGLAS OF BARLOCH: My Lords, in his original Answer the noble Lord laid a great deal of stress upon bird deaths. Will he also take into account the possibility of human deaths and illness?
LORD ST. OSWALD: My Lords, the Question is related to the use of pesticides in the garden. I do not think I should enlarge on it beyond that.
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, since we seem to making some progress, might I support my noble friend and suggest that the Parliamentary Secretary asks the Committee to consider this terrifying document issued by the Ministry of Health as to the symptoms of
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death and illness caused by the misuse of these chemicals? And perhaps the Committee could consider all this in the light of the also rather frightening advice from the scientific advisers to the President of the United States on the long-term dangers of these chemicals.
LORD ST. OSWALD: My Lords, in so far as the noble Lord is sincerely interested in this side of the problem, it astonishes me that he should call for the withdrawal of this booklet which urges the proper use of the pesticides by gardeners.
LORD DOUGLAS OF BARLOCH: My Lords, the noble Lord does not realise that we want it strengthened.

TREATMENT OF DURHAM PRISONERS
THE MINISTER OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (THE EARL OF DUNDEE): My Lords, I should like to inform your Lordships that at some moment after half past three my noble friend Lord Jellicoe will make a statement on the treatment of prisoners in Durham Prison.

WOMEN IN INDUSTRY AND THE HOME
2.55 p.m.
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL BARONESS SUMMERSKILL rose to call attention to the need for an Industrial Charter for Women, and also to the financial disabilities of the married woman working solely in the home; and to move for Papers. The noble Baroness said: My Lords, as I stand at this Box about to initiate a debate on women's work I cannot forbear to comment on the fact that some thousands of miles away a remarkable women, a Soviet woman, Valentina Tereshkova has returned to earth with her male colleague. Although it may be a coincidence that we are debating women in this House to-day, the relevance of this is that as women think of this return of hers they know full well that those two will be equally feted and will be equally paid the rate for the job. But if Valentina were still in orbit this afternoon, and could glimpse into this Chamber, I think she would be amazed to learn that British women in the second half of the twentieth century still have to plead for simple justice.

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The fact is that the economic equality of women is proving harder to secure than its political counterpart which is now taken for granted.
Last year this House discussed the conditions of nurses and the professions supplementary to medicine, thereby rendering these women a service by focusing attention on certain injustices. To-day I ask this House to examine with equal consideration the conditions of service of two other categories of women workers. Of course, there is no special reason for including these in the same Motion, other than the opportunity afforded me of securing a day for a debate; and I must thank my noble Leader and my noble friends on the Front Bench for foregoing their own, perhaps subconscious, desires to be here and for allowing me to put the case for these women.
The Industrial Charter for Women which has recently been framed by the Trades Union Congress has been described by Mr. J. Newton, a member of the General Council as
" one of the most important documents which has emanated from the T.U.C. for many years ".
It concerns the economic standards and conditions of work of the 8 million women in industry and reveals that these are far below those enjoyed by men. It is not as though women have failed in industry. Perhaps some noble Lords will recall a comment by Mr. Ernest Bevin during the war, after he had been to our engineering factories. He came back to another place, and said that he was amazed at the number of women workers, the amount of work they were doing and the expertise they showed. If women workers all withdrew their services to-day, the country's economy would collapse. The fact is that two out of five women and girls above school-leaving age go to work, and over half the employed women are married. Furthermore, it is not always remembered that married women who work outside the home, whoever they may be, whether in a factory or standing at this Despatch Box, have two jobs. A member of the General Council of the T.U.C. (and I would say here that every aspect of the work of women which I mention to-day, so far as authenticity is concerned, comes from the members of the Trades Union Congress) has said
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that research into the working conditions of many women would reveal that hundreds of thousands were working longer hours than the official records disclose, often in conditions which male workers would reject.
Although the occupations of women cover approximately one-sixth of industry and much of their work is essential to men's work, they are paid little over half the average earnings of men. An exception is found in the Government's industrial establishments, where they are paid two-thirds of the men's wage. We hear so much about the affluent society. There is a tendency to over-emphasise the relatively high standards of some workers who are vocal, articulate and well organised, and to ignore the low paid, humble, badly represented part of the community. I would ask those noble Lords who take a part in those debates which are concerned with finance to consider this point. As women's contribution to the gross national product forms a vital part of the nation's wealth, that means that a part of the work for which women are not paid is a direct subsidy in the economy. There is a great deal of talk about wages policy, while one hears little about those unpaid wages of women or the conditions under which they are employed. A strike would be called in any works where a man was not being paid the rate for the job, and it would be irrespective of whether the man was British or a foreigner or the colour of his skin. Yet the wife, sister, mother, girl friend, can work in the same place at the same work as a man and be paid well under the rate for the job, and not a man stirs. The first man who calls a strike to protest at the exploitation of women workers in this country will indeed be the "pin-up boy" of the women in industry.
Men, quite rightly, refuse to work at an unreasonable pace, but I am informed on good authority that women workers in many occupations are expected to work at a high tempo and that piece-work wages or other forms of incentive payment are based on rates which are lower than the male rates. In engineering or other industries women are doing complex work for wages lower than those of less skilled male workers. My Lords, for men to permit this suggests that many

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men believe that a woman working for a living is a challenge to their masculinity. This is a myth. The schools should play their part in eradicating these false values which have produced this lack of understanding between the sexes.
Recently attention has been drawn to the increase of accidents in industry, particularly among women and young children. This is believed to be due in part to a speed-up in the pace of work without a corresponding increase in safer working conditions. It is difficult to believe, on examining the statistics, how the Government have completely failed to benefit from the potential skills of half the workers of the country, the women. Apprenticeship schemes for girls are rare, and of these about two-thirds are in hairdressing shops. My Lords, may I take your minds back to Valentina, whose father was a tractor driver and whose mother was a textile worker? But the Soviet Union have a system whereby they recognise intelligence in an individual, whether it is a man or a woman. They do not judge individuals just by their reproductive glands, and this girl from a poor home was shown to be intelligent and therefore she was given a scientific training.
In this country a girl in the same position has absolutely no opportunity of having a scientific training. The girls' schools in this country cannot get science teachers. Our oldest universities—I am digressing, because this is not a question of industry—take 12 per cent. of women. Our London medical schools take only about the same percentage of women, irrespective of the intelligence of the girl. The point I am making here is that Britain should use its brains, irrespective of the sex of the individual. Of course, the old argument is that girls will marry, and therefore training for a skilled job is a waste of time; but this argument is no longer valid. In areas of full employment married women represent the only additional source of labour, and therefore it is essential that they receive proper training in their early years, and retraining later.
Throughout the world women are taking a larger share in industrial life. Countries within the Common Market are establishing equal pay for equal work and it has been written into the Treaty of Rome. Britain is lagging behind.
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At present less than 10 per cent. of women at work in Britain get equal pay. In 1962 the T.U.C. pointed out that 35 member countries have ratified I.L.O. Convention 100, which relates to equal pay, and they asked that the Government, as large employers of women, should give the lead by applying equal pay in their industrial establishments. The Government refused, on the grounds that, as a minority employer, they must follow, not lead, the practice of private employers. Surely, my Lords, that is a most remarkable doctrine. It is said that women progress only when men's self-interest makes it practicable; but men's self-interest is involved here. Women are asking that payment should be made in accord with equity, irrespective of sex. The workers, men and women, should be united on a common payment structure so that the prosperity of each reflects the prosperity of all.
Now I wish to speak about those women who spend their working lives in the home, bearing children. And if there are noble Lords who are not sympathetic with the economic status of the woman who works outside the home, I hope in this case they will be sympathetic with the woman who remains inside the home and devotes her life to what are regarded as her traditional duties. I wish to speak about these women, the women hearing children and serving the family as cleaner, cook, laundress and nurse for unlimited hours. In case noble Lords think that I am biased in this matter, may I describe their condition as it is described in the Report of the Royal Commission on Marriage and Divorce, paragraph 626—and this, of course, was after the Royal Commission had heard a great deal of evidence. It says:
" …the law fails to take any account of the value of the work which she does in looking after the home and the children; on the contrary, the law still regards her as her husband's dependant, that is to say, as a person of inferior…economic status; and while it may be true that most husbands do not abuse their legal rights, it is wrong in principle that the wife should be left to rely on her husband's goodwill for her wellbeing."
In paragraph 627 they quote specific instances of injustice to the woman who works at home:

" (i) She has no way of ensuring that she gets a sufficient allowance on which to run the home. If her husband does not choose to tell her, she cannot even find out what he earns.

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" (ii) She has no legal right to any allowance for her own personal spending.

" (iii) Any money she manages to save from the housekeeping allowance is in law her husband's.

" (iv) She can lay no claim to a share in the home and the furniture except to the extent that she can prove that she has contributed out of her own separate income.

" (v) The profits of her husband's business are his own, although she may work with him in it without taking any wages."

Later on, in dealing with the breakdown of marriage, they say
" It was said that a wife often puts up with her husband's gross ill-treatment because she fears that she will lose her home. If she does obtain a separation order on the ground of her husband's cruelty or adultery, she may be forced to return to him because, as conditions are to-day, she can find nowhere else to live."
I want just to quote once more, from the Commission's views of witnesses' proposals among other things. In paragraph 647 they say:
" …we think that the weight of evidence suggests that some amendment of the law is desirable in order to give more effective recognition to the wife's contribution to the marriage."
This is the reason why I bring this Motion forward this afternoon.
May I, in the first place, draw attention to the position of the widow which reflects her complete financial dependence as a wife? She has spent many years of her life helping her husband to establish himself and contributing her services to the home and the family, but at the end of her life she has no entitlement to anything, not even to a share of the house or the furniture. This is the law of the land. They are the sole property of the husband, and he may dispose of them without her consent or leave them by will to somebody else. Indeed, a wife could live with her husband for 50 years and at the end of it the husband could leave everything to the local dogs' home or do anything he likes with his money. She has no savings because the law denies her right to save in her own name. I would say that the position of the widow in Britain to-day is barbarous. It is hollow mockery to tell an elderly woman that she has "never had it so good".
Now let us look at the lot of the widowed mother. The widowed mother who toils to support dependent children is subjected to an earnings rule if she
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works. This, I agree, was originally embodied in the Insurance Act, in anticipation of widespread unemployment; but this never materialised. I happened to be in another place on Monday and a Question was put down on this matter. The Minister was asked how many widows were working outside the home in order to support themselves and their families, and who were subjected to the earnings rule. We were told that there were 70,000 such widows, and the Government take back from them part of their meagre earnings. I feel that the Treasury adopt a curiously sadistic attitude towards the lone woman. Deserted wives in receipt of maintenance orders for themselves and their families must pay income tax at unearned income rates. Surely, this is absolutely inequitable.
These three categories—the widow, the widowed mother and the deserted wife—have one thing in common. During their married lives, which may well have covered their physically active life, the law has denied them the right to save in their own name. The husband may have been a drinker or a gambler, but the wife is simply his agent. Any saving she effects belongs to him. The vow, "With all my worldly goods I thee endow" to many men means giving to their wives the minimum for necessities and letting them ask for any extra which they may need. Surely, we all know here that marriage must be based on mutual respect, otherwise it is doomed to failure.
Can the economic relationship existing within the institution of marriage command a wife's respect, or is it surprising that those who are concerned with settling matrimonial difficulties find that friction over money matters is often the initial cause of the trouble? The Royal Commission carefully examined this aspect of marriage, and recommended that marriage should be regarded as a partnership in which husband and wife work together as equals. I am pleased to see that the right reverend Prelate the Lord Bishop of Lichfield is to make a contribution to this debate, because in this matter the Church of England has been bold, I do not always compliment them, but in this matter they have been bold, and they have produced an excellent little booklet called, The Threshold of Marriage. I am quite sure that the right reverend Prelate

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is going to dilate on this. I take only one sentence from this booklet, but, after all, it is the one which means most—it is the very essence of the matter. They say,
" The income must be regarded as belonging to both of them."
I regard that materialistic statement of the Church of England as something upon which they should be congratulated. Seven members of the Royal Commission recommended the introduction of some form of community of property, which works well in some Scandinavian countries and in the United States of America.
On savings, the Royal Commission's recommendation was this—in paragraph 701:
" We accordingly recommended…that savings made from money contributed by either the husband or the wife or by both for the purpose of meeting housekeeping expenses (and any investments or purchases made from such savings) should be deemed to belong to husband and wife in equal shares unless they have otherwise agreed."
Well, that is going some way. They say that the present system should be changed. But, of course, this in effect means that the husband of a thrifty wife would benefit from her efficient services, even to the extent of receiving half of her savings from the housekeeping allowance. If marriage is to be a true partnership, surely it is logical that she should receive an equal share of the money saved when the other outgoings of the home have been met. It would also follow that a man or a woman should disclose the amount of his or her weekly earnings if the partnership is to be established on a sound basis.
We are so accustomed to convention here, that I believe that many men think that the system that obtains in the instituion of marriage here is the one that obtains everywhere. I believe they feel that men in all the Parliaments of the world are so strong that they are in a majority, and in no circumstances would they therefore change this system. But that is entirely wrong. We might well examine the West German marriage laws of 1958. I never thought that I should come to a Dispatch Box in Parliament and ask Members of either House to examine German legislation introduced since the war. Basically this provides for the husband or the wife to retain the property each possessed on marriage, but after marriage they share equally in everything that is acquired and share the
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savings made in the home. There is a complete partnership in Western Germany. We have been inclined perhaps to disparage the German woman, to call her a hausfrau and regard her as being inarticulate. Yet she and her husband as members of society have established equal financial partnership in marriage.
I would say this to the legal profession. Lately women have cause to be grateful for certain judicial rulings which allow a separated wife an equal share in the home. Unfortunately, this protection may be lost if there is a mortgage on the house. After leaving his wife the husband may stop making payments and the building society will then be able to take over the property. If the furniture is being bought on hire purchase, he may stop the payments and return the furniture. Unfortunately, therefore, this recognition of a wife's contribution to the home in terms of service is established only when the husband has left her.
Attempts to establish an equal partnership in marriage prompts some people to utter dire warnings of the probable consequences of interfering between husband and wife. My Lords, this is reminiscent of the 19th century, when those who opposed the Married Women's Property Act quoted the Ephesians when they said:
" Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands as to the Lord."
Nevertheless, despite the opposition of some men to the Married Women's Property Act in the last century, legislation was enacted, and now a minority of women are protected against greedy and cruel husbands. The result is that a wife who has money of her own has her independence secured. Surely the woman who gives unremitting service to the home should also enjoy some measure of economic independence.
Unfortunately, we have no records to show how many women are compelled to work outside the home because the husband fails to give her a fair proportion of his wages. There are well-meaning people who cannot discuss these questions in the abstract, but relate every new idea based on justice and equity for the housewife to their own sex lives. It is quite remarkable how irrational intelligent men can be on this subject. Many seem to regard marriage as the

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one sphere where women can be kept in their place and an equal partnership is a threat to themselves as pillars of society. I believe that men should give up arguing about women and start thinking with them.
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: Hear, hear!
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL: Many fail to recognise that the husband—wife relationship is the best testing ground of character. If a man fails in this, then he should look first of all for the defects in his own character before looking for those in his wife's. The value of a woman's qualities in the home can be assessed only when she enjoys complete freedom. Consequently, the economic emancipation of women should be granted in the name of liberty and individual happiness. Finally, let me say there is no fear that it will jeopardise married happiness. On the contrary, it will increase it, for it will remove that sense of dependence which over the years can kill a woman's affection. My Lords, I beg to move for Papers.
3.25 p.m.
THE LORD BISHOP OF LICHFIELD: My Lords. I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Summerskill, for bringing this subject to the attention of the House, because she has undoubtedly been touching on certain matters of social justice, and I am grateful to her for many of the things which she has said.
Last week I happened to be taking part in a big service in Lichfield Cathedral for the Women's Voluntary Services, and a prayer which was used particularly impressed me, and I thought of it during, this debate to-day. The relevant words ran thus:
" We pray that women may learn so to serve their country and their home that in working for the one they may not sacrifice the other."
In my view, that aptly sums up the ethical judgment which women time and again have to make. On the one hand, as the noble Lady has pointed out, the country definitely needs their labour to the tune of eight million; on the other hand, the woman has a special duty to her home.
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I would refer to the large number of married women who are now out at work, a fact mentioned by the noble Lady. Clearly, the man should be the chief breadwinner of the home. That, I think, is the natural order of things, and it is one of the reasons why I believe that the word "obey" is appropriate in the marriage service. But it is the woman who makes the spirit of the home, and while the children are young they will certainly look to her more than they do to their father. That being the case, it is very necessary that, if a married woman is going to go out to work, she must have a great deal of flexibility in regard to that work. The hours at her work must suit home requirements. There is nothing worse for the children of our land than that they should return home from school to an empty house, with a grate in which there are burnt-out remains of a fire and on the table the unwashed breakfast things. I do not think we shall ever serve our country well if we tempt women away from these home responsibilities, which surely are primary.
There are some jobs which are clearly for men, and others for women (I do not refer just to heavier and lighter work), but, when we reflect on the matter we discover that many jobs are much more interchangeable between the sexes than is often realised. I cite, for instance, the great profession of nursing. Chiefly, it is staffed by women, and we have often thought of it as women's work. But just think of the number of excellent male nurses we have in the country at the moment. Again, it was only when I started to do a little research in regard to this debate to-day that I realised how many women there are in the engineering works of our land. I had always regarded that as man's work, and to find how many women were engaged in it showed me that there is a much greater interchange of jobs between the sexes than I had realised.
If we have this situation in which the woman has this responsibility in the home and, at the same time, there is the need for her work, and this flexibility and possible interchange between the sexes in regard to that work, how can we help the women of the day to do their duty? Unquestionably in the home they have responsibilities that will occupy their time to a much greater

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extent than is the case with men in the home. And, of course, the training of women for various jobs is often looked upon with a certain doubt, because the authorities concerned say, "Well, if we train her she will only get married very soon, and we shall lose her. We had much better get as many men as we can, because the woman will get married and leave." The woman's working life is, of course, interrupted by child-bearing, and all her work must always be subordinate to that primary duty of the healthy married woman to bear children; for on that the future of the country depends. But if that is her primary duty, must the labour that she gives outside the home be always regarded as second-class? If we so regard it, I think we are wrong; and that is why I myself support this Industrial Charter.
Since I became a Bishop I have received a very varied postbag: people give me their opinions on a variety of subjects. For instance, it was only a short time ago that a gentleman wrote to me, "It is obvious why the country has now gone to the dogs; and the moment when it started to go there was when women were given the vote." That may be his opinion, but, as the noble Lady has pointed out, that is not the opinion of the vast majority of our countrymen to-day. I believe that the day will come when it is also seen that in the industrial sphere and on that plane, there must be the same equality as in the electoral sphere. But if that came about, would it lead to the failure of the woman to do her duty at home? If it did, it would be disastrous to the nation. Not unnaturally, some people have felt that that would be the inevitable sequence. But, my Lords, it is interesting to discover that the evidence shows that this danger is not so great as had been thought. If the woman who goes out to work works at the right time, and in the right way, her home is not affected by it; and undoubtedly the woman can sometimes provide amenities for the home which would not be available without the income that she brings in. Thus very often the work that is done by the married woman need not be feared as being detrimental to the true spirit of the home.
This leads me on to the subject of the second part of the noble Lady's Motion, and to her remarks about the financial disabilities of the woman who gives her
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time solely to her home. There are undoubtedly many financial disabilities to be experienced in this way. There are many married women who deliberately do not go out to work, simply because they feel that they are needed whole time at home. Many of them also take that line because they feel that they can help their husband in his work; and, as I think of the Church, undoubtedly the Church over the years has had very good reason to be grateful to the women for what they have done in that way.
The woman's home duties must surely be regarded as of the utmost importance, and I feel that it is sometimes unfair to the woman who deliberately stays at home, and gives her whole time to it, if she is then penalised because her neighbour, the wife in the next home, goes out to work and may be able to bring much greater income into the home. I have sometimes wondered whether greater allowances could be given to these women who are employed full-time in their own homes. Such allowances would help—because I know full well of the considerable financial sacrifice that is made in many a home when the wife, in conscience, feels that she ought to stay at home and not go out to work; and I think that that attitude towards the home is one that deserves encouragement and not censure.
If the country needs women at work in this way, as it does, then I would suggest that it must care for them adequately. There are many firms which are very enlightened in the way they look after their female employees. I have myself seen in factories the way in which the doctor is readily available; a trained nurse is available; there is a bright and comfortable rest room, and so on. But I still think it true to say that conditions vary. In some firms the way in which the women are looked after is not so good as it is in these other more enlightened ones. I think, therefore, that we must ask the question, in regard to the welfare of women out at work: are the essential amenities which they need safely left to collective bargaining on their behalf, or should the matter be, much more than it has been, the subject of legislation? In view of the fact that women do not so easily group themselves into trade unions as men do, I think that the possibility of further legislation on that point of

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essential amenities for the women, and their welfare at work, is something that ought to be borne in mind.
In this matter I would suggest that we must keep a due sense of proportion. There are principles which we have to defend, and one of those great principles is that nothing we do must ever weaken the structure of the family. But while there are those principles, do not let us make the easy mistake of confusing principles with prejudice—and there are prejudices about this subject. There are sometimes prejudices, for instance, rather than principles, in regard to the employment of the older woman. I think that is breaking down, but it still operates. There are also prejudices against the occupying of senior positions by women. Some of those, it is felt, ought to be held by men. Well, there are some of those positions that I think should be held by men. I personally, and I think the Church, would be sorry if we had the ordination of women.
LORD SILKIN: Why?
THE LORD BISHOP OF LICHFIELD: I could give the reasons why, but they would take up the time of the House for too long. But I should be very happy to give them afterwards to the noble Lord. In regard to this matter, however, very often there are senior positions which are withheld from women by prejudice rather than by necessity. There, too, I think that in this competitive age we should remember that sometimes a great deal of most valuable talent in those women is probably going to waste.
Finally, as we think of this matter of the women of our land and what they do for the country, and what ought rightfully to be done for them, I want to make a plea that we should not lose the spirit of courtesy to our womenfolk. I sometimes think that the country has not improved over the years in matters such as this. I know that sometimes people say, "Oh, well, if women want equality in everything they must take what comes to them. They cannot expect to receive the courtesy that once they did." It will be unfortunate if ever that kind of spirit spreads. As I compare the situation to-day with what it was when I was a young man, I think, for instance, that in public transport the manners of the community have undoubtedly deteriorated. Often one sees a young man
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slumped in a seat while an elderly lady is straphanging in front of him. We ought to reflect on this, and see whether that essential courtesy to our womenfolk is not something which is perhaps of greater importance than has always been realised. I believe it is in that kind of little way that we all can realise what we should do for our womenfolk. If this debate this afternoon, which the noble Baroness has so ably initiated, leads us to see the part that women can play and the way in which they can be helped to do it, then I think that the community will have been served.

TREATMENT OF PRISONERS AT DURHAM
3.39 p.m.
THE MINISTER OF STATE, HOME OFFICE (EARL JELLICOE): My Lords, with your permission, I should like to bring to your Lordships' notice an Answer which my right honourable friend the Home Secretary made to-day in another place in reply to a Question asking whether he will publish the Report of the inquiry by the visiting committee into Mr. Cronkshaw's allegations of ill-treatment of prisoners at Durham Prison. I will use my right honourable friend's own words:
" Yes, Sir, and copies will be available to honourable Members in the Vote Office this afternoon. Mr. Cronkshaw, a former prisoner, made 11 allegations of ill-treatment of other prisoners at Durham while he was there. The visiting committee find that 8 of these allegations were without foundation of any kind. Of the remaining 3, they report that one involved a conflict of evidence but, even if true, was not of a serious nature; that one disclosed a defect in prison routine, which is being looked into, but no negligence or irregularity on the part of the officers concerned; and that one, which also involved a conflict of evidence, left the committee with grave suspicion that two officers might have been guilty, if not of an assault on a prisoner, at least of using more force than the circumstances warranted, although no complaint was made by the prisoner concerned or anyone else at the time.

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" The visiting committee themselves reported that they could not regard the facts as having been proved, but I nevertheless thought it right that the papers be referred to the Director of Public Prosecutions. His conclusion is that the evidence is clearly insufficient to support a prosecution of the two officers.
" Many of Mr. Cronkshaw's allegations included criticism of the prison medical service. The visiting committee find that none of these criticisms has been substantiated, and that no blame of any kind attaches to the prison medical service.
" Honourable Members will wish to read for themselves the comments in the report on the value to be attached to Mr. Cronkshaw's allegations generally. I cannot but regret the wide publicity that was given to them as soon as they were made and before their authenticity had been investigated. It inflicted harm on the reputation and morale of the prison service which the publication of the report, based on thorough investigation, should certainly dispel."
That is the end of my right honourable friend's statement.
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: MyLords, I am sure we are all grateful to the noble Earl for making that statement, and that we shall wish to follow the advice that he has given us, to read the Report for ourselves before attempting any comment. I am sure that if in fact the prison officers have been vindicated to the extent suggested here, we shall all be very happy. Those of us who are interested in penal reform must be careful to approach these matters from the point of view that the prison staff are innocent until they are convicted of some offence. We also realise that they live a life of great strain, and that none of them is infallible or perfect.
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, I should like to express my gratitude for the tone of the statement which the noble Earl has just made. In endorsing what he has said about the prison officers, I wish (jumping the gun, perhaps, just a little) to quote a sentence from the Report, which is now available to your Lordships. It appears on page 29 of the Report, where the Committee state, in
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speaking of the Governor of Durham Prison:
" We are satisfied that his administration is just and humane, and that he is supported by a staff who almost without exception are of the same high standard ".
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: My Lords, could the noble Earl give us any background to this gentleman Mr. Cronkshaw?
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, I have recently learned that Mr. Cronkshaw is in fact due to appear to-day before the Blackpool magistrates' court on a charge of forgery, and in view of that, and since this case is, as it were sub judice, I think it would be wrong for me to give any details of his previous record.

WOMEN IN INDUSTRY AND THE HOME
3.44 p.m.
Debate resumed.
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, I am sure we are all grateful to the noble Baroness for raising this question. I must confess that I had intended to come here to speak as an employer rather than as a husband, but I think that perhaps the husband's voice ought to be raised in this debate. The noble Lady referred to the many duties of the wife. I made a list of the ones I have had: stoker, cook, dryer-up, painter, gardener and children's nurse; and there are many of us who, I hope, in the properly conducted home, share duties as is appropriate. I must confess that when I give prizes away at boys' schools I always advise them to learn to cook, because it is so much more interesting for the husband to cook than to have to dry-up. But this does not, I think, weaken the case that my noble friend has made. Nor, I think, does it weaken the point that the right reverend Prelate made about courtesy—although I remember coming back from the British Empire Exhibition when I was a small boy and having to give up my place to a man whom my aunt had knocked down because she thought he had been rude to her.
My Lords, however much we may feel that these demands for rights are misplaced so far as we are concerned, or so far as the majority of homes are concerned, there is not necessarily any harm

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in granting them—and I refer in particular to some of the legal points—and if there is a need for them, then they certainly ought to be granted. I should have thought that the fact that (and this has been true of the whole story of the emancipation of women) so many women are inclined to say that they do not really need it, they do not want it and that they do not think it is necessary, is not, in itself, enough reason to dismiss the very powerful arguments that have been adduced, and adduced so eloquently, by my noble friend to-day.
It is, of course, an indication of the social progress of a particular country if rights of these kind are established. My noble friend referred with some slight astonishment to improvements in conditions, in terms of rights, of women in Germany; but, of course, in many other respects also German legislation in the social welfare field, as in other European countries, is outstripping us in this country. I think that, in considering the points of my noble friend, we should realise that this is an aspect of our whole social progress; that you cannot have one without the other; that this is a very good indication. And the points my noble friend made are a very good indication of the degree of general progress that is being made.
I wanted to refer mainly to the position of women in industry and commerce, which is where I spend a good deal of my day, in the personnel field. I am particularly concerned with the employment and conditions of women, working, as I do, with a large number of women personnel officers. I agree most strongly with the argument that has been put forward—and most sensible employers now appreciate this—that employers must get out of their minds the idea that it is not worth training women because later they are going to leave work and marry. There is no doubt that they are going to leave and get married, and it is extremely irritating when this happens; but once it is realised and accepted that you still need to employ women, and that there are many jobs at which they are best, and many jobs which they may do as well as, if not better than, the men who may be available, albeit for a relatively short period, then one gets a rather clearer approach to this matter.
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It is of course true—and this came out recently in our debate on industrial training—that training for industry must be based on the educational system, and the criticisms that have been made in regard to the training of women in industry do apply, of course, to the state of training generally in industry. It is the fact that what my noble friend said was true to such a marked degree with regard to women is also true to a considerable degree with regard to men. There is not enough training, and I do not believe the Government—and this is perhaps the one critical point I should make from an Opposition point of view—are yet seriously tackling this problem. We had an interesting debate recently. We are making a somewhat leisurely approach by setting up training bodies in industry, with powers to levy, but this is not going to be enough to meet the national need, and it will certainly not be enough to meet the rather special problems which my noble friend Lady Summerskill mentioned. I would merely say on this that, until we do have a central body of such a kind as they have in Sweden, we are not going to tackle this problem efficiently.
It is, of course, in the school that the most important part of the preparation for industrial life begins from the training point of view. But there is, of course, a need for continual further training of a kind that best employers already give, but which is still not enough. The noble Lady is right in saying that the majority of apprenticeships are likely to be in trades like hairdressing; but unless there is some form of apprentice training it is probable that very little training will be given. This can be overcome; the devices are known. There are bodies able to provide this training and to advise on it, and, of course, the best firms already do it. It is of very great importance not merely to the woman herself at the time when she is in full-time employment but for her future employment when she may at a later date return to industry or commerce after marriage.
I would just say a word about the attitude that industry ought to take towards marriage. Too many people assume that the moment a girl gets engaged to be married and the date is fixed they are going to

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say goodbye to her for ever. I do not propose to go into the difficult question of the extent to which married women should work in industry, but the fact remains that for large numbers of them soon after marriage it is probably an economic necessity. Then comes the question of maternity, and at this point the difficulty arises. I want now to speak not merely of legitimate children but of illegitimate children. Most girls who find themselves about to have an illegitimate baby almost certainly try to conceal the fact from their employer for fear that they will immediately get the sack.
It is in the interest not only of the community but of the employers themselves to look after the girl in the prenatal state; to give her maternity leave, if necessary on pay, and to offer her the opportunity to return to work afterwards; because in many cases the unmarried mother has no option but to arrange for the child to be adopted. Even if the child is not adopted, the State is very much better in providing facilities for the child of the unmarried mother than for the child of the married mother. I should like to see in any industrial charter provision for maternity leave on full pay for mothers, whether they be married or unmarried; and this will come, I believe, at a later stage as we progress. I know firms who in fact do this; my own firm happens to be one of them. I am quite satisfied that it is not only to the inestimable benefit of the girl in question but to the advantage of the employer.
I want now to turn to the difficulties arising in employment of married women. This question imposes a responsibility and an extra labour on management. We have had in your Lordships' House a number of discussions on management, and the primary requirement of management, and the primary requirement that the worker and, certainly, the trade unions want in management, is that it should be intelligent and competent. If management is to be, intelligent and competent, then it must take into account—and it is not always easy to do this—the circumstances of married women. Some of the best unused labour, from a national point of view, is to be found among married women who are not able to go out to work full-time. It may be difficult to incorporate part-time workers into a
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business, but in fact a number of firms have done this successfully, both by means of certain shift systems and by means of certain types of work. This brings me back to the point I was making: that it is very important that a woman should be competent at her job and have a skill, either educationally or technically in her fingers, which she is able to use. She then becomes an asset, at least to an intelligent employer.
I would argue that this is in the interests not merely of the economy and the employer but also of the wife and of her husband; because there are plenty of women who are devoted mothers and housewives but who, none the less, after a while find the domestic round is not enough to satisfy their interests. They may be able to find an outlet in social work in their community; but for many of them the opportunity to do some part-time work in industry or commerce will not only be of economic value to the family but also add to their own happiness. Those of us who are engaged in more than one job—and many of us in this House are, because we can go from our business to Parliament—will know how refreshing is the change of activity. This is one of the great privileges that men have. They have, on the one hand, their home; and, on the other hand, their work. For many women it is purely the home, and I believe there is rather a strong social case for extending the opportunity for part-time work to married women. Before I leave that particular point I would emphasise that here is a reservoir of very high-calibre labour which could be usefully and beneficially put to work in this way.
I would say a word or two about the conditions of work for women in industry to which the right reverend Prelate referred. I agree with him in his reference to the importance of the medical side, and here I would return to the special importance of a gradual development within industry—which is voluntary at the moment—of industrial medical services.
I believe that the industrial health service must to some extent change its rôle. It has not simply to cope with accidents or emergencies; it has to provide the sort of help needed for minor

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ailments. This is of particular importance where women are concerned. There should be opportunities perhaps for an hour or two of rest, for the treatment of minor ailments and for the sympathy that can sometimes be beneficial. Let me say straight away to the noble Baroness that I am sure she would not accuse me of thinking that men are tougher than women. We know that this is not so. But women do have certain particular needs, and I think a proper industrial health service is of importance.
Now I would turn to the question of wages and promotion. Here again there is the same sort of prejudice that has existed for a long while. It is the doubt whether women are capable of filling the highest ranks in industry. I said that I was in favour of removing all disabilities, legal and otherwise, and I also hope that we shall be able to remove psychological disabilities. It is unlikely, at any rate for a long while, that the majority of women will wish to take over the work of the majority of men, whether in industry, Government or Parliament, but there are some who are capable of doing so, and it would be an act of both injustice and folly to deny them that opportunity.
I have had in business considerable experience of women executives at the highest level who have shown the greatest degree of efficiency and competence. Here again we shall have to move to some extent by legislation. Without going deeply into the vexed question of equal pay and the rate for the job, it is difficult for employers who seek to establish equivalent pay in those industries where rates are fixed by wages council awards and there is a big difference between the two rates of pay. The good employer will always pay above the statutory rate, but the fact is that the pattern will be set by the rate fixed by the wages board. We shall need to move gradually to an integration at that point.
From the employment point of view I think it important—and I am sure that my noble friend would agree with this—to recognise that men and women have different qualities and are each particularly suited for certain jobs. For instance, I should like to see much greater employment of women in personnel management, for which they are particularly well suited.
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I happen to have experience of dealing with them in this field, and the women personnel officers who work with me are able to tell me things that I did not know and could not know, because they have these perceptive qualities—which it is so unfair for them to possess but which nevertheless can be put to specific use. I think that a reasonable partnership can be arrived at, in which there is no question of biological inferiority, but a recognition that there are certain qualities which are found more highly developed in women than in men.
The last point I want to make is about the loneliness which so particularly affects women. This is a question with which my noble friend has been long concerned. Recently I heard of the sad case of a lonely woman who committed suicide, which is almost a classic example of the effects of loneliness. There is a particular need to do something for single or deserted women, who find it more difficult than men do to find a place in the community.
In conclusion, I would say that we cannot think about the position of women, both in the home and in industry, in isolation. It is a good thing, as my noble friend has done, to take a separate look at this matter and to isolate the problems and issues that need special attention; yet when we look at it, we find that there may be a need, in respect of certain difficulties, for an advance on the general social and industrial front, and that it is not a matter affecting only women. But in making any advance we should give special attention to special circumstances and special categories. Therefore, I think that it is right that we should have taken this look at the matter today, and I am very grateful to my noble friend for raising this subject.
4.6 p.m.
LORD AMWELL: My Lords, I think that the speech of the right reverend Prelate was one of valuable thought and usefulness in a debate of this kind. I agree with most of what he said, although I have reservations about a point or two taken up also by the last speaker. I am afraid that more than once on this very subject I have got at cross-purposes with the noble Baroness, Lady Summerskill. I do not know why, and I am very sorry for it; but I have

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my views upon the subject and may be allowed, I hope, to have them.
I feel that the way in which the debate has gone shows that there is a considerable amount of misunderstanding of certain aspects of the problem. We heard, for instance, that there is a tremendous requirement in industry for women's labour. This was not the view of the trade unions years ago. The trade unions, of course, have altered their point of view upon the subject, but the idea that we cannot get on unless vast numbers of women are engaged in industrial employment, particularly mechanical employment (the career woman is quite another matter), is taken for granted. But I do not take it for granted, any more than I take for granted the common assumption that we must "export or perish". But then I am a Socialist—one of the few Socialists that remain, if I may say so. I think that we have forgotten a good deal of our fundamental principles. I cannot understand the enthusiasm with which so many of our professed Socialists are rushing into the fight for so-called women's freedom, which really amounts to making more and more wage-slaves of the sex than there were before. I am not so enthusiastic about that. I do accept the idea that there are two sexes with certain differences and that these differences are, sometimes at least, important.
The misunderstanding I refer to is the assumption that the objection applies to woman's labour in general. I assure the noble Lady that in my case it does not. There is a great amount of service to the State and the country which can be and is being rendered by women in many directions. No one talks about all women being refused the chance of employment, even in industrial work. There are hundreds of thousands of women who are not married and who ought to be employed in industry according to the kind of work they can do. There are older women, with experience of life, who perhaps have shed certain responsibilities of their earlier life, and who have a right to industrial employment or any other kind of employment for which they are fitted.
I do not want to say a word against the career woman. I do not care whether it is the barrister, Member of Parliament,
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or whoever it is, no one suggests for one moment that such people, who render a great service to the State, should be refused the opportunity, at some time of their life, at any rate, of the other kind of service for which they are thoroughly trained and well fitted. I, and those who think with me, do not take that point at all. The point that we take is on the running of a home (I am talking about the married woman with a young family) and doing all the chores of a home. That means a great deal. It will not do to say: "I employ daily help" because if you do that you are merely shouldering the slavery on to others for a mere payment, and that is not a very Socialistic thing to do. I have said that before, and I am afraid it upset the noble Baroness on a former occasion. But it is merely shelving the question.
Surely the point is this: that you cannot run a home on tinned foods and letting children run about the streets until mother gets home or until both parents get home. Young children especially want a lot of motherly affection. There are a lot of child problems in the home—little illnesses that crop up and the comfort that is required. That, alone, is sufficient to suggest to me that full-time industrial work for a married woman with a young family is not a thing that should be supported. It is a bad thing; and I have seen many examples of how bad it really is. Beyond the direct care of the children, the love that is required for them and the intimate care at all times that a child requires, there is also the everyday work of the home. I am thinking more of a working-class home, because I am of the working-class and I have not known much other than working-class homes. In the running of a home, however humble and small, there is shopping, cleaning, bathing the children every day, ironing and all sorts of domestic work to be done. This is work which a man who has done a day's hard work would not think of attempting, and should not be expected to, anyhow. If you have not the daily help that is required to make it reasonable, then something must go; and it does go in many thousands of homes. I am very much concerned about those homes, and not particularly about anything else.
By all means let us have women in industry; it would no doubt do industry a great deal of good. But I object to

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the economic point put forward, which to my mind is unsocialistic; and I object also to the idea that it is a question of the rights of womankind. It is not a question of rights. If a woman takes up the responsibilities of a home by getting married, that, as the right reverend Prelate said, comes first; that must be settled anyhow. Even so, the career woman who has training for an important profession, if she selects a home, should not neglect that home, but should make other provision for the proper care of the home and children.
Those are the points I want to put forward. Just think of what a working-class mother's work is: shopping, cooking and all sorts of things. Then it is said: "Let the husband do his share of the chores." My wife would object very much if I interfered with her running of the home. I do not like it, and I do not do more of it than I am compelled to. But there are some things I do and that I think a man should do in the home. I will not go into what they are, because it would take too long, but I want to make it plain that I am not that all-out opponent of women that the noble Baroness has so often thought I am. I have no objection to women in business, in industry or in anything for which they are fitted. But if they go into the business and industry of a home and motherhood, then that must come first, even if they have to pay other people to do it. But do not pay other people to do it and then say: "That is the Socialist thing to do. Look what a good Socialist I am!". You are nothing of the kind.
On the economic proposition, I want to suggest, as a last word, that this country does not need, and really is not in the position of needing, the wife and mother, the one responsible for the actual work and management of the home, in industry. I refuse to believe that. If you regard a "rat race" as the proper economic thing that we as Socialists have to deal with and support—and a good deal of Socialist literature makes me think that you do—after all, it is only a question of nationalising capitalism, and competitive capitalism at that. If you take that, and use all the slogans of the Conservative Party and the capitalist sections of the community you are right. But, as a Socialist, I say that you are wrong. First things first: as, for instance, the point
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about whether we must export or perish. It is not true that we must export or perish. It is not said, "We must make do with this, that and the other; there are certain things we have to go without, and we shall be hindered "; it is suggested that we should perish. What a fine idea, that one of the greatest countries, from a horticultural and agricultural point of view, must perish if we do not join in the "rat race"!If that is the modern socialism, I have finished with it. I do not believe it.
I believe in first things first. And one of the first things on this subject is the care and love of the children, and abolishing a situation where, in my own knowledge, in the streets round about where I live, children carry latch keys and come home from school, day after day, to an empty house; and other cases where the parent has to go a long distance to school to take to or fetch from school the younger children of six, seven, eight or nine years of age, making that journey twice a day. The argument that a woman is compelled, or finds it necessary, to do a day's industrial work with all that responsibility on top of it does not seem to me to be a Socialist proposition at all.
4.19 p.m.
BARONESS ELLIOT OF HARWOOD: My Lords, I will delay your Lordships for only a short time. I apologise to the noble Baroness, Lady Summerskill, for not being present when she made the whole of her speech, but I did hear the last half. Unfortunately, I had a public luncheon and could not get away, and I was not here when she started. I am grateful to the noble Baroness for putting down this Motion, which I think covers a matter of great importance. I would approach it, if I may, in a non-political, non-Party way. The noble Lord who has just sat down made various points, with some of which I agree, but with others I do not agree, but I would not say that I was speaking from the point of view of a Tory or making any points which are necessarily of a Party political kind. The noble Lord who has just sat down spoke about the Socialist point of view. He may be right; I do not know; but I think there are many Socialists who would disagree with what he said. But I am not speaking from any point of view except one of some experience over a fairly long

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period in the question of the employment of women.
At the beginning of the last war the Minister of Labour of the day, no less a great man than Ernest Bevin, set up at the Ministry of Labour a Committee called the Women's Consultative Committee which was to advise the Minister on the difficult and important problem of the call-up of women for industry, munitions, women's services and all the other great range of employment that was required for women during the war. I sat on that Committee from the beginning, and at the end of the war we were asked to advise about demobilisation of women, which we did. Since then we have met four times a year when our advice has been asked on various important problems connected with the employment of women. During the whole of those years I realised how tremendously important this subject is and how it is growing year by year, whether we like it or not.
The total number of women who are in work to-day—and I expect the noble Baroness mentioned these figures—is 8,120,000; that is, an increase of 140,000 between 1961–62, and an increase of 1,020,000, between 1952 and 1962. That is an enormous labour force, and I could not agree with the noble Lord who has just sat down in saying that those women, or a proportion of them, are not required in industry, in social services or in professions; because, in fact, they would not be employed if they were not very anxiously needed for the various kinds of professions. In fact, 35½ per cent. of the total number of people in work are women, and this is 1½ per cent. above what it was in 1952. These are very big figures indeed. The largest increase in the last year in the employment of women was in girls under 18, where the increase was 5·6 per cent. and the increase in the number of those over 18 was 1·4 per cent. Nearly half of the increase of 140,000 in the year 1961–62 for which I could get Ministry of Labour figures was in professional employment—scientific, educational, medical and dental services. That is, in my submission, a vital and most important contribution which women are making to the community in which they live. A third of that 140,000 went into the distributive trades and a quarter
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went into what is described as miscellaneous trades, largely the hotel and catering trades. That is a very big proportion of the total labour force of the country.
The noble Lord who has just sat down spoke about the married women, and the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, in his most interesting speech as an employer, and a very enlightened employer, if I may say so, of women in the distributive trade, spoke about part-time women workers. Of these, 52 per cent. are married or widows, and they, too, make a very good contribution. The increase in part-time workers is largely in women over 35 years of age. That, I think, would help the noble Lord who has just sat down, because, on the whole, the families of those people would be either of school age or above school age and would, to a certain extent, be able to look after themselves. There has been a decline in the number of women employed in the age group under 25. There are 386,000 women working part-time in manufacturing industry, and this also, I believe, is an important contribution indeed to the success of our manufacturing industry. I think your Lordships would agree that those figures alone show the great importance of the employment of women.
I do not want to go into the details of how women are employed, because other noble Lords have done this, but I do think that this enormous labour force, whether it be in the professions, in the manufacturing industry or in distributive trades, is a matter which should concern us all. And here I think the noble Baroness is right when she speaks of the importance of some kind of industrial charter or conditions in the way of employment which everyone would observe and which would, I think, be of great value Ito women in their employment.
But there is still a great shortage. The noble Lord who has just sat down mentioned that he did not know whether there was a great shortage, and I should like to inform him that in certain employments there is. In the teaching and nursing professions, in social work and domestic work, all of us have had experience of the shortage of workers, and I believe we shall not get people to go into these professions unless we can assure them that the conditions under

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which they are employed and paid are comparable to, and as good as, those in any employment offered to men in similar professions.
I do not know whether the noble Baroness mentioned the importance of equal pay for equal work, but I am quite sure that is a matter of great importance in the professions and the other services. In the profession to which the noble Baroness belongs we have always agreed that equal pay for equal work is absolutely axiomatic, and nobody suggests that a woman who is a skilled doctor should be paid less than a man similarly skilled; and there are many other professions in which that would indeed be equally true. So that this is something which we want both employers and trade unions to look at with a fresh and enlightened eye.
On this Women's Consultative Committee we have represented all the political Parties, and many people from the professions whose political affiliations I do not know: but that point does not enter into it at all. We almost always agree on methods which we think the Ministry of Labour should adopt; and it speaks well for women of all political Parties that we should have worked for so many years together on these important problems and, so far as I can remember, have never disagreed or taken a vote of disagreement on any of the recommendations we have made to the Ministry of Labour.
I think it was the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, who mentioned the training of women and girls in industry. I have here an extremely good booklet, issued by the Industrial Training Council, on the training of girls in industry, which is of the highest importance. I know that many of the great employers, certainly in the manufacturing and distributive trades, have enlightened views about the training of girls in industry or in the distributive trades. At the back of the book there are various accounts of the ways in which different companies, factories and manufacturing industries train women for industry.
The right reverend Prelate the Lord Bishop of Lichfield touched on the question of women in the Church. I do not think this is a debate in which one should
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raise this matter in any detailed way; but only the other day, at the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland, which I attended, a remarkable speech was made by Miss Mary Lusk, who is appointed to a post at the University of Edinburgh which would normally be carried by an ordained minister. She is a deaconess, a worker in the Church, not of course ordained, but carries out exactly those duties. She has asked that the question of whether or not women should be admitted to the Church should be considered; and, because of the remarkable speech and the remarkable case which she made to the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland the other day, a committee of investigation is being set up. The right reverend Prelate only touched on it in his speech, but I believe that in the Church of England also an inquiry is being made on these lines.
This is not a matter in which one can have any particular views, because the fact is that these things are all under discussion. But that goes to show, I think, the tremendous importance that one should attach to the contribution which women are making in enormous numbers of spheres of work. And the conditions under which they work, the training which they receive, the standards which are required of them, and so on, are all an essential matter in this very modern world in which we live. I hope very much as a result of this debate, as a result of the very careful and important manner in which the noble Baroness deals with these matters, being herself a professional woman, that we may have a very careful study made by both employers and trade unions and the political Parties, not so much from a Party point of view but from a general political point of view, of the way in which we can help women to continue to make, and to improve the contribution they are already making, in my opinion an essential contribution, to the welfare of the community to-day.
4.33 p.m.
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: My Lords, we must all be glad that the noble Baroness, Lady Elliot of Harwood, was able to be here in time to speak. She said, and was entitled to say, that she was speaking from a non-Party point of view, but, if I may say so, her Party

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is lucky to have someone who is so dedicated to social work and public-spirited causes, and she is certainly a great source of strength Ito anybody with whom she is associated. She spoke, as have other speakers, such as the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, and the right reverend Prelate, from intimate knowledge and experience of these problems. We have also had a contribution from my old friend Lord Amwell, who certainly carried us with him while he was stressing the rôle of the mother in the home. There were other more controversial aspects of his speech on which he challenged the noble Baroness, Lady Summerskill, but I will leave her to cope with him, because I feel she is more worthy of his steel; but we were all very glad to hear him.
I am delighted to be able to back up the noble Baroness, Lady Summerskill. I myself think that no one has made more difference to this House in the last few years since she came here than the noble Baroness. She has not only made stirring contributions herself but has caused other timid souls to pluck up courage and square our shoulders and play the man, if that expression is allowed in her presence; and certainly to-day she has spoken from a great background of work and idealism.
I was also very much interested to hear what the right reverend Prelate had to say about courtesy. I am sure that courtesy is something that should transcend sex. I still cling to the idea that one should rise in a tube—not in a bus, if one is at all tall, because one causes trouble—but in a tube and offer one's seat. My rule is to rise once between Sloane Square and Westminster, but not twice. I hope the right reverend Prelate would regard that as a thoroughly Christian rule. It is embarrassing, when one reaches the age, now being approached by some of us, at which young women begin to offer their seat to oneself. That is, I think, a wrong trend. Yesterday at Earl's Court, when I was coming down the stairs to the tube my bag flew open; it was not perfectly locked; and a lot of things fell out. It is always interesting on these occasions to, as it were, test the Samaritan qualities of the average congregation as they flow past one. The two who stopped to help me were one young man of what might be called the Y.M.C.A. type, and an
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elderly woman who confided that she was suffering from bad arthritis. I am all for courtesy. I am sure the right reverend Prelate would agree that this is something that should flow between the sexes, and not only in one direction.
I have just been reading a life of the noble Lord, Lord Pethick-Lawrence, which is shortly going to appear. When one reads the history of the suffrage movement one finds it really astounding that it is only a few years ago that men conceded the principle of equality. Taking the whole story, one must agree that the greatest condemnation of the male sex is their treatment of women over the centuries. If it had not happened one would not believe it could be true. I am afraid the male sex still constitute in many ways, when they are challenged and still in a position to resist the challenge, the most obstinate vested interest one can find.
It is only a few years ago in this House some noble Lords resisted, on what appeared to them the highest grounds, the emergence of Ladies such as the noble Baroness, Lady Elliot of Harwood, and the noble Baroness, Lady Summerskill. You might think that those noble Lords would now think that they were then wrong. I met one the other day. I ought not to quote this but it provides lighter relief and it is only telling the truth. I said, "Surely now the noble Ladies have done so well you must agree you were very much at fault." A look of hypothetical delight stole over his face and he said, "Whenever I see that long neck bending down I wish I had my chopper, and I say to myself, ' Chop, chop, chop '." That is the attitude still to the fair sex of some who are legislators in this House. That being so, it is really surprising they got here at all. At any rate that is what women have had to fight throughout the centuries.
LORD AMWELL: My Lords, may I be allowed to intervene on a point that occurs to me?
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: Certainly. It was not the noble Lord who said that.
LORD AMWELL: I am not intervening on that point but on something that was said a little before, about rising in a train because a woman comes in and she should have your seat and you should stand. The point that occurs to me—I may be wrong is—that it might be worth

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considering whether, if it is so necessary and so gallant and so desirable to give up a seat for a few minutes in a tube train, it can conceivably be regarded as a right thing for a woman to do a hard day's industrial work in a factory and then go home and do the chores of the home.
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: I am afraid I do not follow that argument. I think giving up one's seat to a lady is an act of courtesy. I have various rules of that sort which I recommend to the noble Lord. Never walk into a room in front of a clergyman, is one of my rules. I think these are courtesies rather than acts of physical sustenance. I think the world would be poorer and coarser it these courtesies were not observed. There are other arguments but that I suggest to the noble Lord.
I was saying that throughout the centuries this struggle has gone on. Plato, if I remember rightly, was in favour of equal chances for women. In the last century Mr. Gladstone was not. In this century Mr. Asquith was a strong opponent. I am sorry to say it in the presence of his distinguished relative, the noble Baroness, but I think Mr. Asquith was extremely difficult where the rights of women are concerned. And Sir Winston Churchill, too. I am sorry to say that. But Sir Winston is, I am glad to say, still with us; so we are not living in ancient history now. That battle has gone on, and now, at last, the principle is more or less accepted.
There has been progress in the Carlton Club. I do not know whether noble Lords have read "The Londoner's Diary" in the Evening Standard of to-day—we are still quite early in the day. If not, I venture to quote something from the first paragraph of "The Londoner's Diary". It says:
" There have been some radical improvements at the Carlton Club since the arrival there a month ago of a new Secretary, Mr. Michael Lord."
I ought to say that I resigned from the Carlton Club, before being expelled, in 1935, so that I am not in touch with proceedings, as the noble Earl and other noble Lords may be. I do not know whether the noble Baroness, Lady Elliot of Harwood, would be allowed to be a
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member of the Carlton Club—she shakes her head!That is not much of a step forward. We are now told that in the Carlton Club
" women, instead of being confined to a small ante-room are now allowed in the more spacious library on the first floor."
That means that the noble Baroness will be allowed into the library.
" The ante-room has been turned into a banqueting room which can be hired also for cocktail parties or used as an overflow from the dining room. Attendance has doubled. More good things are to come. ' When we close in August we are turning one of our very many lavatories into a bar ', said Mr. Lord "—
I do not see what the connection is there; it is all in this passage—
" Women are still denied access to the main staircase ".
Even for the Carlton Club that is a bit backward. I repeat:
" Women are still denied access to the main staircase. They must take the lift to the first floor."
I am in favour of equality of rights, but I am not in favour of absolute and total feminine predominance. Men must be allowed to speak. This is the situation in the Carlton Club which I have placed before the House.
However, at the special request of the noble Baroness, I turn to the more technical part of my speech which will be dry enough, I think, for all tastes. I want to deal in great detail with the life of women in banking, and when I have finished I think no one will complain that I have been facetious, because it is not at all a laughing matter. In regard to the problem of women in banking, I want to make two demands on their behalf which I think will be conceded by all Members here; and of course the remedy does not lie entirely in the power of the Government. But I take banking because it is something with which I was associated for a number of years, until just the other day. I make a demand for equality of pay and equality of opportunity, and I think that the noble Baroness, not to mention other speakers, will be with us because she has upheld strongly the principle of equality of pay, and also, I have no doubt, the equality of opportunity. But may I take the second one first, equality of opportunity, because the question of pay is rather simpler?

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In banking the question of equality of opportunity is a rather tricky one. In fact, in commercial banking in what are ordinarily called the joint stock banks, of which the "Big Five" are much the best known, Barclays is the only bank which has appointed women as managers. Barclays now has two women branch managers: no other bank has any. There are in Barclays several kinds of women appointed to senior posts inside the bank. They have a woman staff manager administration, and I am told that that is regarded as a higher position than that of a branch manager. All this, one is bound to say, refers to Barclays alone. Taking the banks as a whole, it is inconceivable that there should be so few women in good positions if there were anything like equality of opportunity. I say that because, indeed, it is bound to be one's conclusion, when one bears in mind that at the moment the banks are recruiting more female than male staff, and that the proportion of women in banks is between 40 and 50 per cent., and is increasing the whole time. In that situation, one would say that it was astonishing that in Barclays there were two female managers and in other banks no female managers at all.
There is need for caution here. The vast majority of women who enter banking as girls leave it, after a few years, to be married. All that side of things was stressed in a more general way by the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton; and so one has to be careful in saying, "Well, half the staff in the banks are women; therefore half of them ought to be managers". I am not putting that claim forward, because it is extreme and would be rather absurd. Nevertheless, out of the more than 100,000 men and women employed in banking there must be some thousands of women who give their whole life to the profession; and it must be clear from the figures, and from what I said earlier, that the few women who have received senior posts—those who do give their lives to the work of banking—receive a much worse chance, on the average, than the men, and a much worse chance than their talents deserve.
But we must look at the matter from the point of view of the banks. I have been a bank chairman, and I know this side of it. From the point of view of the banks, when the young women join they are, of course, regarded as much
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less durable, much less likely to last, than men. Taking them as a whole, they are looked on as not providing potential material from which managers are likely to emerge, simply because it is thought that the vast majority of them will be married fairly soon. When one is discussing this question of equality of opportunity for women one has to bear that side of the matter in mind. Even so, I would say that the fact which I have just mentioned, that the vast majority of the women marry fairly soon provides an altogether insufficient excuse for the backwardness of the banks. The noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, covered all this over a wider field, and I must not try to repeat what he said. But I am talking now of banking from first-hand experience. The banks as a whole have failed to take adequate steps to train promising young women so that they can be equipped to take on higher responsibility if they stay in the banks. Most of the female recruits to banking tend to gravitate to routine tasks, to work as ledger-posting machinists or shorthand typists; whereas suitable young men, and indeed the average young men in the bank, are usually, after they have been in the bank a little while, given the chance to acquire wider experience in the various aspects of banking. All this early training and wider experience paves the way for their promotion later on to managerial posts. It is, I suppose, broadly true—though it is difficult to generalise—that if a young woman wishes to rise in banking beyond the routine tasks, she has to show rather special initiative in pushing her way forward, whereas the opportunity comes to the young man in the ordinary course of events.
Therefore, making allowances for all the progress, I respectfully plead with the banks to show far more enterprise and sense of justice than hitherto in giving equal opportunities to their female staff. I was told to-day (I have not seen it myself) that there is an advertisement from one of the banks which shows considerable enterprise. They have published an advertisement under the heading, "Job or career. We provide you with whichever you want". That stresses the fact that a woman may want to come for only a few years; but some may want a career. If that is so, and a bank has put an advertisement of that sort in

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the newspaper, I give it all credit. But a great deal more should be done.
I turn now to the question of pay. I should just say, linking these two matters together, that if the pay were more equal as between men and women, there is no doubt that a good many more young women would be ready to assume responsibilities to which their talents entitle them than is now the case. As things stand, they are frequently reluctant to take on the higher responsibilities if only because they do not feel they are going to be properly paid for them. Therefore, the employers have some argument—though not a very strong one in view of their backwardness—for saying that they cannot get the women to take on these higher posts. If they paid them properly, a lot of that contention would disappear.
I should like now to say one or two words on pay. In most of the banks in this country there is a measure of pay parity between men and women on the clerical scales in the early stages. Among the Big Five, according to my information, Barclays, the Midland and the National Provincial offer parity on basic clerical scales up to and including age 23. From the age of 17, or whatever age they enter, young men and women will be paid the same up to, but not beyond, 23, and in some cases the disparity begins before 23. After 23, or sooner in some cases, the disparity begins. At the later end of the salary scale, at 31 in most cases, the increments in the case of men go up from £70 to £75 per annum, and in the case of women, from £15 to £20 in the year. So by the time they reach 31, in spite of the equality up to age 23, the gap between men and women is very pronounced. I am here talking of the people on the scale, not of the people who receive special pay for special responsibility.
In fact, if you take a typical case, still citing the scale, a man of 31 will probably be getting about £930, and a woman might be getting £665 or thereabouts. There would therefore be a gap of about £265 at 31. All that will have opened up between 23 and 31, so there is a very big discrepancy in the years after the age of 23. I am sure we would all agree that this is grossly unjust and that it ought to be brought to an end as soon as possible,
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as it has been brought to an end in teaching and in local government in Scotland. It is not long since there was a great disparity there, but now the principle of equal pay is applied in teaching, in the local government services and elsewhere. This discrepancy does not even make very good administrative sense; at any rate, it clearly reveals a kind of flagrant injustice.
It is after 23 that the staff begin to specialise in various banking departments, such as the foreign department, securities and administration. Where women are given opportunities, as they sometimes are, for specialisation after the age of 23, these promotions usually coincide with a step on the salary scale where equal pay no longer applies. The following position results—and this was described to me by a young woman who came to see me the other day when I was studying the matter with the National Union of Bank Employees. She gave me the facts of her own case. In many instances female staff in their late twenties who are seniors in their department are receiving less than the male staff under their charge. This was the case with this particular young woman, and I am told it is quite common.
It is true that the merit award, whatever you like to call it, for higher responsibility, will be the same in the case of men and women, but the difference in the basic scale is so great that you will get a good many cases where the young woman will be getting less than the young man under her charge. I think we would all agree that that position was utterly wrong and should be brought to an end as soon as possible. In fairness, I should add that the women who obtained the more senior positions and become managers receive in total pay, so far as I know, the same as the men. The managers in a bank like Barclays would be getting the same whether they were men or women, but there are many positions of the kind I have mentioned in the intermediate level where women will be grossly underpaid in comparison with men.
I am afraid that all sounds very complicated, but let me re-state what seems to me to be the irresistible demand which must be made on behalf of women in banking, as of women working elsewhere. Women are not asking for equal pay for unequal or inferior work. They are asking—and surely we must all

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agree with this—that if they do the same or equivalent work as men they should receive equal pay. I hope it will not be many years before this elementary demand is granted. The principle has been accepted up to age 23. That in a way is rather curious, because, if there are objections (and there are difficulties which may occur to noble Lords), they are just as pronounced before the age of 23 as afterwards.
It may be said, for example, that men tend to have higher educational qualifications than women. That is so in a good many cases, but that need not be so in the higher positions because the employer can demand various educational qualifications as required. Again, there are certain problems as to how you decide that the work is equivalent when the women are doing something which, in a number of cases, may be different from the work actually being done by the men. Nevertheless, these objections have in fact been overruled up to the age of 23. That may well be because employers could not obtain the services of the young women unless they had overruled these objections.
We should all agree that these objections should be overruled for a higher reason. I may be asked: should full equality be imposed up to the age of 31, or whatever is the last year of the scale? That is certainly right in principle. I am not going to say that it should necessarily be done to-morrow, but a long step forward should immediately be taken in that direction. Unless we do that we are going to make a mockery of the idea that we stand for the principle of equal pay for equal work. I have much pleasure in supporting the noble Baroness.
4.58 p.m.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: My Lords, the noble Lady who has introduced this Motion has presented us with a wide field of discussion, or rather two wide fields of discussion. The first part of her Motion calls attention "to the need for an Industrial Charter for women"; and an Industrial Charter for women—according to the document to which she referred, prepared by the Women's Advisory Committee of the Trades Union Congress—consists of equal pay based on the job done and not on the sex of the worker; opportunities for promotion;
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apprenticeship schemes; improved opportunities for training; re-training facilities for older women; and special provisions for the health, welfare and care of women workers. That involves a number of Departments: the Ministry of Labour, the Ministry of Education, and the Ministry of Health. The other field which the noble Baroness introduced, in a speech which most admirably condensed all the points into a fairly short compass, was the financial disabilities involved in the married woman working solely in the home. That again might involve the Home Office, the Law Officers, and the Inland Revenue.
The noble Lady will appreciate that I have come here to this debate primarily for the purpose of listening to what the noble Lady, and others of your Lordships who have spoken, had to say; and, of course, to see that everything that she and your Lordships said in this debate receives proper attention from the various Government Departments which are concerned. Your Lordships will not expect me to attempt anything in the nature of a formal statement of Government policy on so great a variety of different subjects. I should like to comment, if I may, on what I thought were the salient points raised by the noble Lady: the question of equal pay; the question of training for women, the question of education, and also, in the other part of her Motion, the question of certain disabilities which arise from the very difficult problem of married women, some of whom work, others of whom may not work outside the home, but whose working inside the home is perhaps more arduous and more important to the country.
My Lords, on equal pay, which has been referred to by many others of your Lordships who have spoken, including the noble Earl, Lord Longford, who has just resumed his seat, I do not think that there is any body of opinion in this country which is opposed to the principle of equal pay. I cast my mind back many years to 1947, when I was temporarily not a Member of either House of Parliament, to the Industrial Charter which was issued at that time by the Conservative Central Office. Your Lordships may remember that on page 30 of this Industrial Charter there appeared this statement:
" We have examined carefully the claim for equal pay for men and women. It seems to

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us that payment by results ought to give equal pay for equal value whether the work is done by a man or a woman. We believe that there should be one rate for the job, provided that the services rendered and the results achieved by men and women are the same. We commend this principle to those engaged in industrial wage negotiations as the right one to adopt. In non-industrial occupations we should wish to move forward on the same principle when financial and other considerations make it possible."
This Report of the Women's Advisory Committee quotes a resolution of the Trades Union Congress in 1962, which says:
" The Congress notes with concern the relatively slow progress made in implementing the principle of equal pay for equal work for men and women. The Congress therefore urges affiliated unions seriously to consider adopting a policy of securing equal increases for men and women in all wage negotiations."
My Lords, there is a great deal that can be done in various ways to lead public opinion to carry out these pieces of advice. But the real problem is probably that, although it might ideally be possible to achieve equal pay for equal work gradually, by working on opinion and by giving advice to employers, trades unions and so on, I believe that what most people have in mind when they talk about carrying out a comprehensive policy of equal pay is that there should be legislation. This must, of necessity, interfere with voluntary wage negotiations, with the free right of employers and trades unions to negotiate wage agreements, to the extent that the law must provide that any such wage agreements shall give effect to the principle of equal pay for men and women.
As the noble Lady said, that principle has been agreed to by the countries of the European Common Market. Although it has not yet been implemented, the programme is that equal pay in France, Germany and the other E.E.C. countries shall come into effect by the end of 1964. We do not yet know exactly how; and there are, as the noble Lady, who is more conversant with these subjects than most of us, is no doubt aware, a great many differences of opinion as to exactly what constitutes equal work. Particularly in industrial occupations, it is often very difficult to equate the value of the work which is being performed by men and women.
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But the point about this is that, if Great Britain had joined the Common Market, if we had been able to do so, we should have been bound by Article 119 of the Treaty of Rome, and we should have been compelled in 1964 to bring in legislation equating our industrial laws on this matter with the laws of France and Germany. So although our application to join the Common Market has been vetoed, and we are no longer likely in the immediate future to be under any such obligation, it is of course a matter which was in everybody's mind while the Common Market negotiations were on, just as we thought of various other changes in our economic life, such as agricultural changes which might have increased the price of food. Although we might regard the object as a wholly admirable one, this was a change which naturally aroused the reluctance of people to interfere with the free rights of negotiation between trades unions and employers. We should have been prepared to override that if we had joined the Common Market, but whether or not it will arise again none of us can foresee.
Let me just briefly recite to your Lordships what progress has been made up to date. As the noble Lady said, the Government have adopted equal pay for the Civil Service, but not for Government industrial employees in the Dockyards, Royal Ordnance factories and so on. As she rightly said, the reason why that has not been done is that the Government are a small minority employer and, according to the Fair Wages Resolution of 1946, which governs regulation of wages among Government industrial workers, it is considered right that we should try to follow what the majority are doing and not to give the lead. In the Civil Service the agreement with the National Whitley Council for equal pay for non-industrial civil servants was made in January, 1955. Equality was to be achieved in seven instalments, the final one being in January, 1961. For the last two years all non-industrial civil servants (I think the teaching profession was the last one to be completed) have enjoyed the principle of equal pay for equal work.
Now, my Lords, there were one or two points raised by the noble Lady on this

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matter which I do not want to pursue argumentatively but on which I should just like to comment briefly. She said—and I think it is a figure taken from this trade union women's Report from which I have already quoted—that according to the T.U.C. less than 10 per cent. of women in Great Britain get equal pay. I have not been able to confirm that—I think it may be an underestimate; I think it may be more—but what the Ministry of Labour estimates is that equal pay, if it could be enforced, would benefit about 3 million out of the 8 million who are now at work. The 10 per cent. does not mean 10 per cent. of the women who would be getting equal pay if this were done, because it covers all women, including those who are not doing equal work.
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: Does that mean that more than half the women actually at work ate getting equal pay?
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: No, my Lords. Although we cannot confirm this, it is right to say that a very small proportion are actually getting equal pay, but we must remember that equal pay is to be given for equal work, and it is often very difficult to decide what work is equal and what is not. The Ministry of Labour's estimate—I am merely giving this as a matter of interest, and not argumentatively—is that about 3 million women out of the 8 million would receive increases in wages if this principle could now be universally enforced all over industry. Many women in industry are employed on jobs which are exclusively women's work, and they would probably not benefit directly From the introduction of equal pay. The women who might chiefly be affected are in distribution and in non-manual jobs in industry.
My Lords, I do not want to give too much attention to percentages—I know they are often misleading—but I think the noble Lady was right in saying that, on the whole, women are getting only about half the pay which men are getting—that is to say, women's earnings are, on the whole, about one-half of men's earnings. Of course, that is accounted for partly by the fact that they work fewer hours. If you take the rates, I think that in general women's rates are between two-thirds and four-fifths of men's rates. Some unions try to get equal increases
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for men and women in absolute figures rather than in percentages, which of course is a good thing for the women, because if they are getting a smaller wage then a percentage means a smaller increase. This was achieved, as the noble Lady probably knows, in the recent agreement in the engineering industry: the increases were absolute and equal—but that is still rather exceptional.
My Lords, I should like to say a brief word about training, and a word about education. The National Economic Development Council, in its Report on the means of achieving a 3½ per cent. increase, refers to the importance of more industrial training for women, both before they marry and later on, if they want to come back to the work after an interval of several years. I think it was the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, who referred to the fact that some employers were reluctant to spend money on apprenticeship training because the girl might marry after a few years. That, of course, may be equally true of the young women; they may not want to spend a lot of time on apprenticeships if they want to marry quickly. But in November, 1962, the Industrial Training Council issued a booklet, called Training Girls in Industry (no doubt the noble Lady has seen it), which urges that all girls entering industry should receive systematic training, and points out the advantages to employers in quicker learning, a higher standard of work and a greater interest in the job, leading to a reduction in labour turnover. The importance of training girls has also been emphasised at the conferences of training operatives which have been organised by the Training Advisory Service of the Industrial Training Council. I should like to assure the noble Lord that the Government are aware of the need to make more training opportunities available to girls and have tried to encourage the provision of training for them—and it is part of our policy to do more in this regard.
As for education, my Lords, I thought the noble Lady paid a good deal of attention to this, both in regard to schools and in regard to universities. She gave certain figures about the numbers or percentages of women who were receiving secondary education, on which I should just like to say a word. Apart from Oxford and Cambridge, where numbers

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are limited by the capacity in women's colleges, women can compete quite freely for places with men; and, of course, the universities are wholly autonomous in the selection of their students. They apply to all candidates, whether male or female, whatever criteria they themselves judge are academically desirable; and the proportion of women among university students is thus a result of independent decisions taken by selection boards within individual universities. At present, there are 116,000 students currently studying at British universities, and about a quarter of them are women. The proportion has not varied much in recent years. In 1954, it was 25 per cent.; in 1959, 24·8 per cent.; in 1960–61, 25·4 per cent. Under our present university expansion plan, about 35,000 more university places are expected to be provided by 1966 or 1967. We do not, of course, provide specific places for men or women, but if the proportion of women in the total student population does not change (and it is not expected to change very much up to 1966), that will mean that some 9,000 of the additional places are likely to be taken up by women.
The noble Lady, I noticed, made a particular reference in her remarks to medical education. There are no fixed proportions of men and women in university medical schools, but the proportion of women at present entering university medical schools has risen from 25 per cent. in 1954 to 26 per cent. in October, 1962.
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: My Lords, as the noble Earl is dealing with universities, may I ask him a point on that?
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: I do not know if I can answer it, but the noble Earl may certainly ask it.
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: Then may I submit a point to him? I cannot believe that he desires to do this, but I think that he perhaps gave the impression that there is parity of treatment as between men and women in the struggle to get into universities. We have only to take the university which the noble Earl and I know best—Oxford. We know that, in order to get into a women's college there, you have to reach what is
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at any rate the exhibition standard and almost the scholarship standard of a male college, simply because there are very few women's colleges and they will not have any more. That is the position. I am sure the noble Earl did not wish to give the impression that men and women are on the same sort of footing in their ability to get into universities.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: My Lords, I am obliged to the noble Earl for pointing that out, but I think I did take particular care to say that the standards by which the university authorities select candidates were a matter for them. I did not imply that university authorities applied exactly the same standards to men and women. I thought it would be of interest to all of your Lordships if I gave total figures.
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, forgive me for interrupting. Is the noble Earl about to leave universities?
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: My Lords, I have been there quite a long time.
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, I think the noble Earl might come a little cleaner. He had misled me in the same way as he misled my noble friend. I hope he would now agree that there is not equal opportunity for men and women in finding places at certain universities. Anyway, I hope he will agree, because this is a rather fundamental point.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: My Lords, I do not think I said that; but to make quite sure may I just again repeat what I said—not all of it but the relevant sentence. I said that apart from Oxford and Cambridge, where numbers were limited by the capacity of women's colleges, women compete quite freely with men for places in our universities. The universities are wholly autonomous in the selection of their students, and they apply to all candidates, male or female, the standards they judge to be academically desirable. I do not want to comment upon that or to enlarge upon it.
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL: My Lords, may I say that I was glad that my noble friends have taken up this point? This is one of the greatest scandals of the country. The noble Earl has been briefed to say that the proportion of women

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university students in this country is overall, 25 per cent. But let us just come back to Oxford and Cambridge. The fact is that in Cambridge it is something like 11 per cent., and in Oxford about 12 per cent. He says to us that the reason is that we have not sufficient colleges. Why are there not sufficient colleges? Surely, if we believe in an equitable approach to this subject, the Government should recognise that they should provide the accommodation for more women. And those are the figures of our two oldest universities—who ought to know better. When the noble Earl speaks about medical schools—it is not his fault, he has these figures and must give them—I have to say that on this side of the House there are some experts listening to these figures. When he was talking about medical schools, I mentioned the London medical schools. If he inquires to-morrow or telephones any Dean or Secretary lie will find that each London medical school has a quota. There is not one medical school in London which takes more than 15 per cent. of women. Some of them take only 10 per cent. or 12 per cent.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: My Lords, it is certainly true that at Oxford and Cambridge there are less than 25 per cent. of women; but at other universities there are more. That is why the average figure is 25 per cent. which I must adhere to.
I was going to say a few words upon the noble Lady's representations which she made about married women in the home. I think that she and others of your Lordships who have spoken have brought out very clearly the extremely difficult social problem in relation to this. The noble Lord, Lord Amwell, argued very strongly against a normal married woman working in a factory because he thought that this is against the interests of the children. I am quite sure there are many of your Lordships who are equally concerned when they hear about children coming home in the evening and looking under the door mat for the key, finding their own way in, looking after themselves, playing with the television perhaps, until their mother comes home. On the other hand, I think it is fair to say, as the noble Baroness, Lady Summerskill, did, that the 8 million women, many of whom are married, who
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are working now, are essential to our economy and it would be a great interference with human freedom if they were prevented from doing so. Although I would not expect that it would really go very far to removing the objections of the noble Lord, Lord Amwell, it is fair that I should quote another sentence from page 4 of this Report of the Women's Advisory Committee of the Trades Union Congress. They say:
" Investigations carried out by the Consultative Committee suggested to them that there was no general problem or evidence of any serious failure on the part of mothers to make adequate arrangements for the care of the children while they were at work."
I think that is true; and I think that, much as we should like to see women able to do two things at once, which nobody can do, we will all agree that it is possible, and ought to be possible, for work to be done by women and at the same time for a happy family home to be preserved.
There are a vast number of financial and social problems which may arise from that, many of which I should say could not be solved by legislation. I should like to mention the tax position for the information of your Lordships, the provisions that have been made in the Finance Bills for helping married women who work. A married man gets his personal allowance of £320 compared with a single person's allowance of £200. In addition to that, if his wife has earnings of her own, additional income tax reliefs are given against her earnings that qualify for special earned income allowance which is seven-ninths of the earnings up to a maximum of £200. That may not be very much comfort to those who work only in the home; in fact, it may exaggerate the discrepancy between women who work and the other type of wife with whom the noble Lady is so rightly concerned, who has to do the whole of her work at home. I listened with very careful attention to what she said. She quoted various recommendations of the Royal Commission on Marriage and Divorce, and she also quoted from some passages in the Report concerning recommendations which were not made.
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL: It was concerning evidence.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: A proposal was that there should be community of

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income. That was rejected, I think, by 12 to 7. Then the proposal was made that there should be a statutory allowance that the wife should be entitled to have a share of the husband's income. They rejected that and gave one rather interesting reason. They said that the practical objections to this proposal are clearly brought out in the evidence given by one of the women's organisations. This body had at first supported this proposal, but subsequently withdrew its support on the grounds that the difficulties of implementation were insuperable.
But there was another proposal, which was positively recommended and which the noble Lady quoted, in paragraph 701, which says:
" We accordingly recommend, in respect of England and Scotland, that savings made from money contributed by either the husband or the wife or by both for the purpose of meeting house-keeping expenses (and any investments or purchases made from such savings) should be deemed to belong to the husband and wife in equal shares unless they have otherwise agreed."
In the short time available, I have done my best to consult my noble and learned friend the Lord Chancellor about this, and he thinks that the Government would have no objection to accepting the recommendation of the Royal Commission about joint ownership by husband and wife of savings from housekeeping money and that, indeed, this might be a suitable subject for a Private Member's Bill. I should not like to say—and neither, I think, would the noble Lady—how much good such a measure would do; but I hope it is a point which will be followed up. Since I have mentioned my noble and learned friend, may I remind your Lordships that the present Lord Chancellor is the first who has been responsible for appointing a woman to be a county court judge?
The other grievance raised by the noble Lady which seemed to me to have something substantial in it, is the question of bequests, but I do not think that it is advisable for me to say much on that point. She said that a man did not have to leave anything to his wife. In Scotland, that is not so. He would have to leave one-third, at least, of his possessions to his wife, which I think is a very good thing. I do not wish to
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be rash enough to comment on the position in England, but an Inheritance of the Family Act was passed in 1938, under which the position is that, if a man dies intestate, his widow can claim enough to support her and the children and, if he does make a will and the wife considers that she has been left insufficient money by her late husband, she can claim a readjustment.
I think that we are all agreed that men and women are equal, certainly in a spiritual sense, and that they ought to be equal in regard to human rights and civil rights. Exactly how this equality may in future be related, or ought to be related, to human relationships of every kind is a question which I do not think I could answer. I do not know whether the general sentiment that a husband ought to have the duty of supporting his wife and children is an out-of-date old-fashioned idea or whether it is a permanent part of natural human relations. If it is an out-of-date idea, then no doubt the time will come when husband and wife will not only have an equal amount of money but also equal responsibility for supporting each other and for supporting their children. This is an idea which I think would be alien to most of our minds in the present age, as certainly it is to mine.
I think that we ought to honour the traditional occupations of women, what they call in Germany "the three K's", which is, in our language, church, children and cooking. I think that these are arts of a high and magnificent order, for which we ought to be grateful to women, as well as to their Creator. But we also want them to be able to express themselves in other ways, to earn money, to practise arts, even to fly through space, like Valentina Tereshkova, whom we are so glad to hear has safely landed this afternoon. As the right reverend Prelate the Lord Bishop of Lichfield said so rightly, we must have flexibility between home life and other occupations. I profoundly agreed with the right reverend Prelate, as I am sure all your Lordships did, when he said that women had a duty both to their country and to their home and that he prayed that, in working for one, they would not sacrifice the other. I am sure that the noble Lady who brought in this Motion would also agree with that sentiment.
5.36 p.m.
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL: My Lords, I have now been in both Houses of Parliament for a quarter of a century, and the longer I am here, the more I realise that one can never anticipate what might emerge from a debate. In the last five minutes, the noble Earl, Lord Dundee, has said something which, in my opinion, can well revolutionise the economic position of the ordinary working woman in this country. When he got up, my heart sank. He began modestly, as he always does, by saying that he came here to listen. Then I looked at the documents which I assured myself he would have before Recess, so that he would have plenty of homework, and I felt that they had been pretty well thumbed, and I realised that the modest approach did not reveal his intellectual grasp of the subject.
The noble Earl went on to deal with practically every point I raised. This is a most unusual thing in Parliament. Generally a Minister is inhibited when dealing with women's problems. My noble friend beside me has just whispered to me that that is because in public schools they are never allowed to mention girls. The noble Earl did seem a little inhibited at first, but as he developed his argument he showed that he had an understanding of, and had thought about, the implicataions of these matters, and his peroration could not have been better. He even congratulated Valentina.
What the noble Earl said was so important. Perhaps some of the noble Lords who have listened to this debate have not read this very long Report of the Royal Commission on Marriage and Divorce. I have quoted some of it, because I wanted to put these extracts on the Record. I have observed that Members of this House listen and if they feel that an argument is sound, they are fairly sympathetic. I pointed out that one of the problems affecting all women—widows, and married women who unfortunately have men who drink or gamble or do not give them enough money—is that women are denied the right to save a penny of the household income, even if they can do it privately. If a woman takes in lodgers, the money she makes is her husband's, because the house is her husband's. If a woman gets a dividend from the co-operative society,
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that belongs to her husband because the housekeeping allowance is her husband's. If she does anything in the house to make money which can be interpreted as using what belongs to the husband, then she cannot save a penny of it.
In this quiet House this afternoon, five minutes ago, the noble Earl announced that the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor has said that, if a Private Member's Bill is introduced, he will be prepared to accept the proposition that a married woman at home can keep some of the home savings. I can only say that I am deeply grateful. I want only to be asked to have the honour of introducing such a Private Member's Bill. I do not know whether Private Member's Bills can go through before the Recess, but it would have to be a very quick Private Member's Bill if it did. I want to thank the noble Earl very much for telling me this and doing this for the most badly treated women in the country.
In these matters we are always dealing only with a minority. Most husbands are very fine people, and most of them speak as the noble Earl spoke in his last few sentences. They recognise that a woman as an individual has the right to express herself, and has the right to freedom of every kind, including economic freedom. But there is the minority. I think that when we look at some of our legislation which concerns men and women we find that much of it is of a deterrent nature. In the last century, when men had the right to assault their wives, there were people who said: "You must not interfere. The wife belongs to the husband, and if he wishes to assault her he may." Then, it will be recalled, a Bill was introduced to the effect that a husband could assault his wife provided the stick was no thicker than his finger. Well, he managed to cause quite a lot of trouble with that stick the size of his finger, and more legislation was introduced saying that the wife must have protection from this assault. But it was only the minority; and it deterred the minority. That is the point. Now it is only a question of a minority who do not treat their wives well. When this little Bill comes in, it will probably be welcomed by a minority of women who desperately need it. The great majority, I am sure, enjoy happy lives.
I feel that I should not say anything more because I am so deeply grateful

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for what the noble Earl said. May I ask the noble Earl whether he would accept a Motion, if it was written out to-day, on the subject of the Bill?
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: I meant your own Motion.
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL: I see. I want to thank the noble Earl, Lord Dundee, very deeply. I want to thank other people who have taken part in the debate to-day. My noble friend Lord Shackleton made reference to unmarried mothers. Things have been said in this debate which must be very welcome to groups of women who are friendless, helpless and desperately need our help. My noble friend Lord Shackleton has told the House that in his firm not only will an unmarried mother be taken back after the birth of the child, but the firm will give her full wages during the period of her pregnancy and, indeed, will look after her and care for her, and even arrange for the adoption of the child. This is progress in the social field, and it will bring happiness to the hearts of many people.
I thank the right reverend Prelate for taking part in the debate and for what he said. I am sorry he did not talk about the pamphlet On the Threshold of Marriage. I was a little amused—and I say this in all kindness—when he said that we must beware of prejudice, and then said he believed in women in all fields except in the Church. I would remind him that there are now only two worlds which refuse to have anything to do with women, and they are the Stock Exchange and the Church of England. I hope the right reverend Prelate will think about this. Then, while he was out for just a few minutes, the noble Baroness, Lady Elliot of Harwood, got up and quoted from that wonderful speech made by Mary Lusk in the Church Assembly in Scotland, where she pointed out to the assembled clergy that she did everything that they did in church work, but they refused to have her ordained. She made a wonderful speech, and I am glad to hear that she has converted many people.
I must say something to the noble Lord, Lord Amwell. He charges me with harbouring uncharitable thoughts about him. The only uncharitable thing about me is that I never harbour any thoughts
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about him. Why he keeps looking at me and thinking, "This woman does not like me", I do not know. I know that he is well read, and I can only suggest that he goes home and reads Freud, which will give him the answer.
LORD AMWELL: Did I convey that impression?
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL: The noble Lord is always saying that I am harbouring thoughts about him. My noble friend Lord Longford always supports me on most unusual occasions. I must confess that I did kick his legs at that moment, and I apologise, but I thought he was getting a little facetious. But what he said about women in banking will be welcomed. There is no doubt that the attitude does change. My own bank manager knows how I feel about it and always has a woman on the front counter.
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: Especially for you?
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL: I do not know. But she is always there, and I am very impressed. There is no doubt that things are changing. On the subject of equal pay, I was very pleased to learn that we might have it in this country next year if we enter the Common Market. I was glad that the noble Earl expressed his approval of that.
I have to move the Motion which stands in my name, which I am very happy to do. I am looking through it to see whether there is anything to which any noble Lord could object. It says:
" To call attention to the need for an Industrial Charter for Women and also to the financial disabilities of the married woman working solely in the home; and to move for Papers."
As this is only "to call attention to", no noble Lord here will commit himself to anything more. My final word is: Thank you very much for what you have given to the women of Britain to-day.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: My Lords, I do not know whether the noble Baroness was instigated by someone to take this line. The last time I accepted a Motion moving for Papers was from the noble Lord, Lord Morrison of Lambeth, and it led to some difficulty about the Papers. As I could do this

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only after consultation with my colleagues, I should prefer it if the noble Baroness would get over that difficulty by seeing her way to take what is the more usual course in your Lordships' House of withdrawing the Motion.
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL: My Lords, I was going to tell the noble Earl that he need not worry about Papers at the end of the Motion. But if that is the case, I will withdraw the Motion.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

INQUIRIES INTO RAILWAY CLOSURES
5.48 p.m.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS rose to ask Her Majesty's Government whether, in view of the narrow scope of any hearing before a transport users' consultative committee, when the closure of a railway station or line is proposed, the Minister of Transport will use his powers under Section 90 of the Transport Act, 1962, to give full opportunities to members of the public to object to such a closure at a public inquiry. The noble Viscount said: My Lords, I must now direct the attention of your Lordships to a quite different subject from that which has been discussed in the Motion moved by the noble Baroness opposite. What I wish to do this afternoon is to raise a point—and it is a quite narrow point—on the procedure which occurs at a hearing before a transport users' consultative committee. I would emphasise at the outset that it is not intended by me that this discussion should relate in any way to the closure of any specific line or station, but is simply a matter of the procedure which will be adopted at these hearings. Nevertheless, I believe it to be a matter of some importance; because if Dr. Beeching's Report is to be carried out at all, or in full, there are bound to be a fairly large number of these hearings, beginning perhaps comparatively soon, and I believe that the public will become aware of the shortcomings, in my view, of the procedure as it now is.
The transport users' consultative committees originated under the Transport Act, 1947, and they were set up at that time in order to give the members of the public some redress as against the nationalised industry which came into
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operation under that Act. To use the consultative committees' own words:
" They were created so that the users of transport should have some means of criticising the Commission and making suggestions for improvement. They were set up to represent transport users of all kinds and to convey their views to the Minister and the Transport Commission."
Later on, they say that the Chairman and members are there to see that the users of transport get the best deal that is consistent with the national interest. And this, I think, sets the pattern for what they have been doing since. In practice, they have done two things. One was to investigate complaints and suggestions about services that are provided, or ought to be provided, by the railways; and the second was to deal with objections to proposed closures.
It is interesting to compare the old handbook published about these functions with the new one which has come into existence, after the passing of the Transport Act of last year. Originally, the consultative committees said (and they emphasised this) that persons attending their meetings were not taking part in an arbitration and were sitting essentially as a consultative meeting for consultation as the representatives of transport users. They go on to explain that a considerable part of the material before them is in writing, and that normally it is only that part of the Commission's case with which an objector disagrees that will be discussed across the table. They then say that members of the public at large, unless they had formally established their right to make representations and had received the relevant documents, would not, if they attended a hearing, fully appreciate what was going on. Thus the emphasis was, first of all, that people should attend the committee's meetings—most of which concerned closures—only when making formal objections and after a proper study of the documents. And certainly I read in this paragraph of the old book an underlying principle that objectors who came to the hearing on the occasion of a closure, would have a fairly good synopsis of the British Transport Commission's case before them which they could then all discuss—in, it is true, an informal way around a table. But, of course, the consultative committees emphasised that they were not arbitration boards or legal tribunals, and

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were not meant to be; and they said, indeed, that if counsel or solicitors turned up they were treated simply as spokesmen, and were not there to do fierce cross-examination or display their forensic skill.
However, although the powers in the Transport Act, 1947, were very wide, restrictions were, in due course, placed upon the scope of the hearing before the consultative committees. I will give your Lordships, in a minute, examples of one of these under the old Act. In due course, last year, your Lordships and another place were discussing the Transport Act, 1962, and in this Act the scope of the hearings in front of the transport users' consultative committees was cut down. Instead of the general power they had before, to look into all these matters, they were now allowed to do only one thing—and I quote from Section 56(9) of that Act:
" A committee with whom an objection has been lodged…shall consider the objection and any representations made by the Board concerned "—
that is, as a rule, the Railways Board—
" and report to the Minister as soon as possible on the hardship, if any, which they consider will be caused by the proposed closure, and the report may contain proposals for alleviating that hardship."
My noble friend Lord Chesham, when he moved the Second Reading of what is now the 1962 Act, drew attention to the fact that this change had taken place and that, instead of having the wide powers they apparently had previously, the committees were now allowed to deal only with hardship. He said (col. 113 of the OFFICIAL REPORT Of May 8 last year):
" …the area committee will, in future, report direct to the Minister any degree of hardship which they see arising out of proposals for complete withdrawal of railway passenger services and they can make suggestions to meet it. The result of that will be to speed up the procedure and to place the responsibility on the Minister for deciding whether the passenger services in question should be closed down or not."
That is, in any case, the Minister's function under the Bill, but I am bound to say that it appears, from what my noble friend said, that the intention of the Government, when introducing this restriction in the Bill last year, was to cut down very considerably upon the area with which the transport users' consultative committees would deal; and if this is the case,
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I am very sorry. Certainly the committees have so interpreted it.
I should like now to compare what I have just said with the new handbook which the committees have produced. They now say that the committee's reports to the Minister will be concerned only with the hardship, if any, involved by the proposed closure in the light of the alternative services available or proposed, and with what they think should be done to alleviate such a hardship. Even although the committees and the objectors may have before them the statement of the losses or savings, the assessment of this is entirely a matter for the Railways Board, in the first place, and for the Minister, when he decides whether or not he will consent to the closure. There will, therefore, be no point in future in objectors coming to consultative committees and seeking to question these figures.
They then go on to say that
" There is nothing in the Act to specify the grounds on which the objections should be made, but as there is now only one ground on which the committee may make a report to the Minister, any objection should be addressed to the hardship, which, in the objectors' view, would result from the proposed closure, and to proposals for alleviating it."
Later they say that "Heads of Information" will be sent to an objector who wishes to appear at one of these hearings setting out the details of the facts to enable him to develop his case before the committee. In an Appendix to the handbook there are set out specimen Heads of Information which noble Lords may see, and they appear to be a summary of various figures which are no doubt produced by the Boards themselves. And your Lordships will remember that it is not now possible to make representations at all on these matters. In another part of the handbook they say:
" If objectors, or deputations of objectors, like to bring lawyers with them, these lawyers will be treated simply as spokesmen for the purpose of putting their case concisely, and not as pleaders with the right to cross-examine. …Questions may be put…but this is in no sense to be a cross-examination. It cannot be made too clear that persons attending a meeting of a consultative committee are not taking part in an arbitration, and that the consultative committee is not a tribunal. It is, in effect, a committee discussing matters on a round-table basis with the people making representations, and making a report after hearing their views."

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The committee may ask the Board to comment on such points as the objectors make, but there is to be "a minimum of formality". I think I have sufficiently described to your Lordships the sort of hearing which the transport users' consultative committees have themselves decided that they should hold under Section 56 of the Transport Act, 1962, and it seems to me that it compares very badly with the sort of administrative process with which the citizens of this country are now familiar.
Your Lordships will recall that since the last war there has grown up a very remarkable phenomenon in the constitutional law of this country, consisting of public inquiries leading to reports to a Minister which he may then have to decide on as a matter of policy, quite apart from the actual facts or the merits of the case. This is the system that has grown up. I know it well in the field of town planning and compensation, but there are many aspects of it, and it is, on the whole, one which is now widely accepted by members of the public as fair. But it is so accepted just because of this fact: although the decision, in the end, is to be taken by the Minister, under powers granted to him by Act of Parliament, on probably a matter of pure policy, nevertheless, before he gives that decision he sends dawn to the locality an inspector of his choice who will hold a public inquiry at which the people concerned in the matter may appear. They may make any representations they like, may cross-examine, may produce their own expert witnesses and generally give the thing a very good combing out in front of the inspector.
The inspector then makes a factual report, not an anything to do with policy but upon the merits of the case he has heard argued before him; and he puts this report in front of the Minister, and in due course also in front of the people who were present and made representations at the inquiry, if they want it. Thereafter, after that has been done and justice has been fulfilled, and I think very successfully fulfilled, so far as it can possibly be done, it may be that the inspector has to be overruled on policy grounds by the Minister. This does not happen by any means in all cases, and I think that in the planning world the
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inspector's recommendation is usually upheld.
Your Lordships may say most of these public inquiries about which I am talking relate to the interference with, or the deprivation of, the personal rights of an individual; they refer to whether he can use his land for something which he wants to do or whether he is to have his land expropriated for the national good, and that therefore this sort of inquiry is not really a proper analogy for the situation in which a member of the public is having one part of his public transport services taken away from him. I do not think this is really so, because it is not only in the compensation or the planning cases where public inquiries now take place. If we consider the case of the Boundary Commission that is now going on, major and very lengthy public inquiries have been taking place up and down the country, at which the citizen is chiefly represented, it is true, by his local authority, but where the issue is not the individual rights of any one member of the public but the proper administration and the proper way of running affairs in the locality; and I think perhaps the public inquiry idea is sufficiently widespread even at the present time to comprehend the sort of situation where the railways, which after all belong to all of us, are going to be in some part closed or interfered with.
Further than that—and this is a point of which I have not previously informed my noble friend, and consequently I do not suppose he knows about the very obscure Act—the idea of public inquiries relating to the closure of things such as railway lines is an age-old one, so far as I can make out. There was certainly considerable power in the case of light railways, but here I find in Section 35 of the Tramways Act, 1870, that if at any time after any tramway has been opened for three years to the public
" it shall be represented in writing to the Board of Trade by the local authority of such district or by 20 inhabitant ratepayers of such district…that the public are deprived of the full benefit of the tramway, the Board of Trade may (if they consider that…the case is one for inquiry) direct inquiry…into the truth of the representation."
And after that the Board may grant licences for somebody else to put trams on the tramway and see that the public get a proper deal.
It is very interesting to see that even in 1870 there were these powers of the referee to hold an inquiry. He was sent by the Board of Trade, gave proper notice of the time and place of his inquiry. He could summon witnesses and put them on oath on pain of perjury if a witness gave false evidence, and finally give a report in writing. And this is the interesting thing. He was to deliver copies of it to all or any of the parties at the inquiry. That seems to me the most up-to-date of all possible forms of inquiry. It was introduced as early as 1870. I cannot believe the sort of case I have in mind is at all without precedent or should be a surprising matter for the Ministry of Transport to contemplate.
It will not be surprising, I think, with the explanation I have given of what will happen in front of these committees, that there will be criticism that people are not going to have their say. I have an example of one such criticism which has recently come into my hands from a very responsible body in the North of England. They say that the sort of criticism they have of these Boards is, first of all—and I may say this is not necessarily my view; this is what the public are going to say—that representatives of the Railway Boards are given unduly privileged positions. I think this means two things: one, that they are allowed to put in their reports without being cross-examined, and there has also been some question of their supplying the secretariat of the Board and thereby perhaps producing undue influence.
Secondly, this reputable body say, the objectors get no chance to examine the Board's representatives on their figures. And this, I may say, is to some degree a very important matter, because I also have a copy of a publication called the Economic Journal, edited by Sir Roy Harrod and other eminent people. Again I do not know whether this is true or not, but it is certainly a view that some eminent economists hold. It says:
" There has been major disagreement between British Railways and the consultative committees over the choice of the time period upon which estimates should be based. The agreed scheme "—
that is, of figures which is put before these committees—
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" represents a compromise between the long-run views of British Railways and the short-run views of the C.T.C.C."
If there is some question even on the basis of the figures themselves, it seems to me very strange that there should be no opportunity for members of the public to cross-examine. Thirdly, the criticism goes, the chairman is apt to curtail the time available to objectors to develop their arguments. I do not know, but it would be lamentable if this were so. Finally, they say, no steps are taken to see that objectors' documents are examined by members of the committee. These are not my criticisms; I do not necessarily subscribe to them. But I think it is deplorable that there should be a system where there is the possibility of this sort of criticism being made. And this is the thing I object to.
I read recently in a newspaper called the Hunts. Post of April 16, 1959, of the procedure which took place before the East Anglian transport users' consultative committee on April 14 that year—this was before the restriction was put into the 1962 Act—referring to the proposed closure of the St. Ives-Kettering railway. A certain gentleman protested that there was nowhere a clear statement about the figures that the Board were putting forward. The deputy chairman of the committee said:
" We have as a committee. These figures are presented in a way laid down by agreement between the Central Consultative Committee and the British Transport Commission and approved by the Minister."
He went on:
" We have the information, which cannot necessarily be made public. You can ask me what you want. I started by saying it is not for you to be satisfied, it is for us to be satisfied."
Then the objector said:
" Why do British Railways publish the book? "
That is the heads of their case to which I have referred. The deputy-chairman replied:
" Firstly for our information and secondly for other people interested. You are not here at a public inquiry…. You do not really appreciate what this meeting is. I am not prepared to carry on with any argument about figures, because we are—many of the committee—skilled in accountancy, and we will be satisfied the figures are correct. We will have access to the sources which we require. I cannot permit you to go on when we are under no obligation to prove that the arithmetic is right."

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The objector said:
" I am remarking that in the statement available to us, there is nowhere a statement of the present receipts and costs and therefore no statement of the present loss. Therefore we do not know whether there is a loss or not."
The deputy-chairman replied:
" You must leave that to us. I do not think you are going to get anywhere by harping on that point. If you will not accept my assurance that we will see the figures are correct, I am sorry, but I do not see that there is any point in you continuing."
I do not know whether or not that is accurate, but it seems to me to be an unfortunate state of affairs when that type of thing happens in front of these committees. I must admit that on that occasion the Huntingdon County Council were able to put forward seven objections to the closure of this railway line, and I think that only one of them at that time related to hardship. Yet that is the only ground they could put forward today: the other six would not be suitable.
What is to be done about this state of affairs? I have one suggestion which I have put into the text of my Question to my noble friend—namely, that the Minister should use his powers under Section 90 of the 1962 Act to hold proper public inquiries—because it is quite clear that these committee hearings are not full public inquiries. Section 90 says:
" The Minister may hold inquiries for the purposes of his powers under this Act as if those purposes were purposes of the Ministry of Transport Act, 1919, and section twenty of that Act shall apply accordingly."
I do not think that provision is as obscure as it sounds, because the reference to the 1919 Act is simply a matter of machinery for giving the inspector power to require witnesses to attend the inquiry. I have no doubt in my own mind (although I shall be most interested to hear what my noble friend Lord Chesham says) that the Minister could hold a public inquiry under this section. Because one of his powers—indeed one of his duties—under the 1962 Act is to consent to each and every proposed closure of a railway line and station, and sometimes to impose conditions before anything can happen at all. Therefore, he seems not to be in any legal difficulty, although, as I say, I am interested to hear what my noble friend says about that. I hope that he will tell me that I am right because it seems to me that this is the only way in which people who are affected by this
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sort of closure can be satisfied that their case has been properly heard and properly reported to the Minister.
The only alternative arises out of something that I saw in The Times of April 11. This was not a verbatim report, but a synopsis of the Annual Report of the Wales and Monmouth Transport Users' Consultative Committee. They, of course, operate in an area which is threatened with severe closures by Dr. Beeching's proposals, and they recognise that they can deal only with the hardship side of it. Nevertheless, they have taken a wide view of what is meant by "hardship". For instance, they say that they consider that it will be hardship if anything is proposed which will increase the cost to anybody of carrying out his trade or profession; or anything that will affect the health of train-users and their dependants; or anything that will affect their standard of living, such as denying them access to a shopping centre of reasonable size. They then go on to say that the cost of the saving arising from the proposed closures is, of course, quite relevant, but that it is chiefly relevant to their duty to see that hardship is, if possible, alleviated. They say that hardship can almost always be alleviated or ameliorated at a cost; but they also say that if the cost is as high as, or exceeds, the saving, then they think that this would be a ground for disagreeing altogether with the proposed closure. That, as I understand it, is what they say. If that is so, this must bring in the question of costs, and the question of all the figures that the British Railways Board are to put forward.
My noble friend Lord Chesham said in the Second Reading debate on the 1962 Act that he thought it would be a good thing if, without laying down a hard-and-fast rule, there were some sort of uniformity of scope for a hearing in front of these committees. So I hope that he will be able to say either that he and his right honourable friend have already made up their minds, or are going to think hard about this; and whether or not they are going to allow transport users' consultative committees (if he will not hold local inquiries) at any rate to interpret their terms of hardship in a wide way, so that they can let in almost as much as would be possible at a public inquiry. I recognise

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that it will be necessary to keep these matters within bounds to see that the proceedings are not interminably long. Nevertheless, I hope that this term "hardship" will be interpreted as generously as possible, and that Her Majesty's Government will give a lead in this respect.
Finally, I want to ask one other thing. As I said in regard to the St. Ives-Kettering case, the Huntingdon County Council put forward many objections on all sorts of grounds, including those concerning educational facilities—getting their children to schools, and that sort of thing. County councils are bound to have a large stake in the future of some of the railway lines concerned; and so, of course, will other local authorities, such as county district councils. At the moment I do not know whether the point about hardship applies to them. But what are they to do about the cost of transporting their children to school? What are they to do if new projects are mooted in regard to bringing industry into their area which at the present moment is being served by a railway line, if the Board propose to close the line?
How are they to get this sort of thing in front of the Minister? So far as I can see, they cannot go to the consultative committee. Surely it is essential that they should be able to put forward their proposals, and perhaps further-reaching proposals than that. Perhaps they want to suggest reforms in regard to the way the railway is working, or something of that nature. Indeed, I consider it vital that they should be able to do so. Perhaps my noble friend can tell me a little about that.
No doubt railway closures will have to take place. I am not suggesting for one moment that they should not. Nor am I suggesting that in any specific case they should not. What concerns me is that the proper procedure should be laid down, so that when the decision of the Minister is announced, members of the public should not feel aggrieved that their case has not been completely and fully heard and considered, and digested by the Minister before he makes his decision. I beg to ask the Question in my name.
6.17 p.m.
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, I am quite sure that your Lordships will agree
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that the noble Viscount has contributed a public service of considerable importance in raising this matter, and I would feel that to him are due not only our thanks but our congratulations for the manner in which he has made his points. In my view, he has proved the case that there cannot possibly be the right kind of inquiry under the new set-up of the transport users' consultative committees, and that it is only if there is a properly constituted public inquiry at which all the relevant factors can be considered that justice at least can be seen to be done.
The noble Lord, Lord Chesham, is aware that I am Chairman of the National Council on Inland Transport. We are in touch with literally hundreds of local authorities, and I can assure the noble Lord that all over the country they regard the present set-up as deplorably unjust. I am also aware that members of the public in large numbers in the areas likely to be affected feel strongly about these matters, now that realisation is coming to them. In the areas affected they are reading things in their local Press such as this item which appeared last week:
" At the first meeting of the reconstituted transport users' consultative committee for the South-Western Area…. the chairman, Major-General W. E. V. Abraham, emphasised that the committee was no longer empowered to make any recommendation as to whether or not a railway line should be closed. The committee's only function now is to assess what hardships would be caused if a particular line or station is closed, and how this hardship could be alleviated."
" He hoped that objectors would appreciate this and address protests against proposed closures on grounds other than passenger hardship, not to the committee, but direct to the Minister of Transport. The committee was most anxious to investigate thoroughly and suggest alleviation of genuine hardship."
The noble Viscount quoted from the old Transport Consultative Committees' handbook, which said that they were set up to ensure that transport users get the best deal that is consistent with the national interest. I am quite sure that is what all of us want, including the Minister and certainly the noble Lord. But I am bound to say—and I feel the noble Viscount proved his case—that unless the suggestion he has made is accepted, then certainly very few people will believe that they are getting the best deal consistent with the national interest.

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It is obvious that unless this change is made only relatively unimportant matters will be threshed out in public. To say that they will be threshed out in public is probably an exaggeration because the amount of discussion which will take place is obviously limited, as the noble Viscount has made clear. That means that all, or almost all, of the major questions and considerations will be considered, as I see it, in secret and decided by the Minister without apparent opportunity for discussion by the people mainly concerned. That seems to me as unsatisfactory and as undemocratic as the procedure of the Star Chamber.
The noble Lord a few days ago sent a letter to the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, who was kind enough to let me see a copy of it. In that letter the noble Lord said that there was no reason why even now local authorities should not be preparing cases on hardship for submission to transport users' consultative committees, and on all other matters acting now in preparing cases or reports for submission to the Minister, with copies to all other Government Departments normally concerned with the subjects touched upon. Just consider that kind of set-up. Here we have a local inquiry under a T.U.C.C. dealing just with the narrow issue of hardship. Then on all other matters local authorities are invited to write to the Ministry of Transport with copies to other Government Departments on particular issues.
On May 1, in the debate on transport, the noble Lord, Lord Chesham, gave us some of these considerations on which local authorities and others are now invited to write to the Minister of Transport and to other Ministers—namely social; defence; industrial development; distribution of industry and employment; the effect on areas of high and low employment; on population movements; road considerations; planning future towns and conurbations; the cost of alternative transport. That is a most important and far-reaching list.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: And education, of course.
LORD STONHAM: Yes. The noble Lord said, of course, at the time that that was by no means a comprehensive list. So it will be little or no exaggeration to say that local authorities are not merely
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being invited, but are positively being incited, to get in touch with Government Departments after long inquiry and at great expense.
The noble Lord also added in that speech [OFFICIAL REPORT, Vol. 249 (No. 76), col. 200]:
" There is a great deal of thought and consultation before us, and many and various are the interests which must be consulted or considered before a great many of the proposals can be carried into effect."
I quite agree with that, and he will recall that the noble Viscount the Leader of the House, Lord Hailsham, on the next day said that, in his view, there was no hurry about this matter and that it might take as long as seven years. But the noble Lord will be aware that all over the country closure proposals have now just been published, and the British Railways Board has said that in various parts of the country, including Scotland, the railways will be closed on September 8 or 9 or 15—only 10 or 11 weeks from now. Whereas under the 1962 Act those proposals have to be published for two weeks, then six more weeks must elapse for objections to be lodged before the T.U.C.C. can sit. This means that they cannot possibly send a representation to the Minister, even on the narrow ground of hardship, until the latter part of August.
The Minister is supposed to consider all these things and to give a decision before September 8 or 9. The noble Lord, Lord Chesham, shakes his head. I will quote chapter and verse for that if he likes, but I do not want to speak for too long. These are announcements which have been made and this is the position. I am not suggesting for one moment that the Minister is going to arrive at a decision in that short period, but I am bound to inform the noble Lord that these announcements have been made by British Railways. I have one in my hand containing the details—in fact I have many of these, but this is just one in regard to one line, in which they even give the number of redundancies, the number of men in various jobs who will have to be dispensed with if these proposals go through.
I mention this because of a particular point raised by the noble Viscount, namely, that we have to consider public opinion. I am not suggesting that he entirely agrees with what was said at

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this particular hearing or by the particular local authorities whose views he quoted, but that is what the public thinks; and justice not only has to be done, but has to be seen to be done. When you get an item in a newspaper headlined that a line will close on September 8, with various particulars quoted in detail below it, then that is what the public believe. And when they are told that all this other elaborate machinery has to be gone through before anything is decided, well, they have their doubts. Then if finally the matter is decided affirmatively by the Minister very soon after September 8, or whatever the date may be, they will be sure they have not had a fair deal in the matter and certainly their voice has not been heard.
How can the Minister in a comparatively short space of time positively give full consideration to all these matters, which the noble Lord has said must quite rightly be considered, when there are 300 branch line closures which could be possible and some 2,300 stations involved? I have a list here of ten different branch lines now scheduled for closure in the northern part of Scotland, which is supposed to become effective in September. I know of eight in the West of England already, and there are the large number which was considered before the new set-up, on which there has been an inquiry and on which the consultative committees have sent a report to the Minister, but about which the Minister has as yet made no decision. That, again, is a sapping of confidence.
For example, the Porthcawl line is one which I brought to the notice of the noble Lord. There is another, the Haltwhistle and Alton line. There the local authority was able to establish a disagreement with the figures put forward by the Railways Board, and to prove that the loss which could have been wiped out easily was only some £1,600. This is an area where there is no alternative transport, where it is a thousand feet up, and where it is extremely unlikely that there could be a bus service anyway. The Minister has had that case before him since July, 1962, with a recommendation from the transport users' consultative committee that the line should not he closed. They have had no decision about it, and it
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is still in the list in the Beeching Plan for closure. They are the kind of things which sap the confidence of the people and, as it was put rather crudely to me, it seems to us that it is a case of heads they win, tails we lose.
Even when the consultative committee announces in our favour, the Minister does not come to a decision. Surely, a public inquiry such as the noble Viscount suggested, with witnesses, a chance for questioning, for testing the alleged figures, is the only fair way, and, indeed, the only practical way, because surely, unless this procedure is adopted—and we are having these cases all over the country—the Ministerial machine must become clogged up.
I would ask the noble Lord to tell us this now. If there is not a public inquiry, such as the noble Viscount has asked for, and if local authorities and others accept the invitation from the Minister to send in their written detailed objections and answers to the Minister or the Ministers, can the noble Lord guarantee that a Minister will discuss these objections and give these people the opportunity to challenge facts and statements made by the Railways Board? I do not wish to go into any questions of detailed cost now, because that is a matter I am going to raise to-morrow. But I do assure the noble Lord now that there is no case which has come to my notice where the figures put forward by the British Railways Board have not proved inaccurate. He will be aware that the line manager of the South-Western Division, Mr. Taylor, agreed only the other week at the Isle of Wight that the figures put forward for the Isle of Wight railways were suspect. So there must be opportunity to challenge these things. When these figures are known in the particular areas, and people are able to look at them and are not satisfied with them, there must be opportunity for all the facts to be brought out.
I quoted what the noble Lord said about consultations. There must be consultations, and I quite agree there should be. If the local authorities ask for consultation with the noble Lord's Department will it be granted as of right, because that is most important? Is he aware also that, although he has said again and again—and I quite know this must be so—that lines cannot be closed down without the consent of the Minister, and the

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Minister has said that if there is no alternative service he will not give his consent (or words to that effect; I do not want to misquote, but that is near enough), in some of these closures which have now been put forward there is no alternative bus service over a considerable part of the area, no kind of proposals have been put forward for an alternative service, and this is causing very considerable worry?
I think it must be agreed that every responsible organisation representing local authorities has protested in the strongest possible terms against the present set-up, and has expressed its concern at the way in which it appears, so far as we can tell (subject to anything the noble Lord says), this is going to be administered. In particular there is the County Councils Association. The noble Viscount mentioned one county council. This letter, which was sent by the County Councils Association to the Minister of Transport on April 23, is a really remarkable document. I do not know whether the noble Lord has read it, but it deals with matters which are of vital and important concern, and with which all the county councils are concerned. We are not talking now about the tiny organisations or a political organisation. Apart from Parliament, apart from central Government, we are talking about one of the most important associations of government in this country. They say things like this:
" …the Association are gravely concerned about the Board's intention, expressed in the Report and apparently supported by the Minister, to carry out the proposals for line and station closures and withdrawals of services as quickly as the statutory procedures permit…. The Association ask the Minister to give an assurance that he will not give his consent to any closure proposal until he has given due consideration, not only to the recommendations of the appropriate Transport Users' Consultative Committee on the issue of hardship, but to those other issues to which reference is made below."
Then the Association refer to a great many things, including the fact that the alternative service
" will still provide a reasonable service to the public after the closure."
They refer to the financial implications. They want
" an immediate examination of the type and carrying capacity of the vehicles available ";
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a survey
" of the pattern and capacity of the roads which are to take such vehicles; an immediate survey to determine the need for additional car-parking facilities…; the close coordination of road and rail services ";
and a great many more things of the utmost importance.
My Lords, I submit that those things cannot possibly be settled with satisfaction, or indeed sufficiently speedily or efficiently, if they all have to be referred to the Ministry of Transport and considered departmentally. Because representations from bodies of this kind cannot possibly be ignored, and I am quite sure that neither the noble Lord nor his right honourable friend would wish to ignore them. But the point is that, even from the viewpoint of machinery, quite apart from what the public think about it and know about it, and quite apart from giving them satisfaction, a great many of these things and their local application could best be considered by the kind of public inquiry which has been suggested by the noble Viscount. He did suggest, perhaps, an amplification of the transport users' consultative committee or their present power. I believe that that would be only a second best. An inquiry with a ministerial representative from the Department in the chair would, of course, be very much better, and would give a great deal more satisfaction.
This question does not concern only the County Councils Association. The Town Planning Institute have put the most serious questions to the Minister. There is the Wales National Conference, and a resolution by the All-Wales Committee—not the T.U.C.C. there—speaks about
" deep concern and anxiety about the proposed widespread withdrawal and restriction of passenger and freight services, which will result in irreparable damage to the social and economic life of the Principality. Where it is established that a railway line will be of genuine and permanent value to the community, social considerations should prevail and arrangements made to retain the service with necessary economies, notwithstanding that it may not be financially viable."
They ask the Government to
" defer a final decision on the implementation of the Board's representations until a nationwide examination is made of all forms of transport."
My Lords, anxiety is felt not only by official bodies of this kind. There are

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the National Union of Townswomen's Guilds, representing 200,000 women, who, at their conference in Edinburgh, passed a resolution; the Council for the Preservation of Rural England; the Women's Institutes and the Rural District Councils Associations. In fact, it is quite true to say that, in the areas likely to be concerned, this matter is causing more anxiety and worry than any other domestic subject to-day. I earnestly hope, therefore, that the noble Lord, when he comes to reply to his noble friend, will be able either to accept the suggestion or at least to say that the matter will be reconsidered, so that a far truer, better, more thorough and more satisfactory local inquiry will take place, in order that we shall give greater confidence to the public and also be sure that, when a decision is made, it is in the best interests of the people affected.
6.41 p.m.
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, my noble friend Lord Colville of Culross has posed his Question in the lucid and well-documented way that we have come to expect of him, and certainly, so far as concerns the background to the Question, which he sketched in with some care, I should have no complaint as to the way that he did it; nor should I have the slightest challenge of the various facts that he put forward to us, though it may be that, as my argument develops, there will be a difference between the conclusions drawn in the matter. In view of the importance of the subject which he has raised, which I do not deny at all, I think I ought principally to address myself to what is the substance of the Question as it appears on the Order Paper.
It seems to me that, if I were also to address myself, in the process, to all the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Stonham, who has just sat down, I should, first, perhaps be somewhat trespassing on the substance of the two Questions which the noble Lord has down for to-morrow (and I think those matters would be better dealt with in their context then); and, secondly, I might be going a little further away from the original Question than the amount I have to say on that Question would seem to make it wise to
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do. Therefore, the noble Lord will, I am sure, understand if I do not quite cover all the ground. For instance, there is his assertion, which he has repeated often in this House, that every figure the Railways Board have produced that he has yet had anything to do with has proved to be inaccurate. My Lords, he may well continue to assert it, but I shall say no more at the moment than that that is by no means the experience of many other people. But, my Lords, I will not take that matter up now.
I think I ought to start by looking carefully (and perhaps in a somewhat oversimplified manner, even, to be sure of the matter) at the provisions of the Transport Act which are involved in my noble friend's Question. Section 90, as he said, provides generally for the Minister to hold inquiries for the purposes of his powers under the Act. He also told us, quite correctly, that that was an extension, or a continuation, perhaps I should say, of the powers he originally had under Section 20 of the Transport Act, 1919. The point really is that it is not, in terms, associated directly with any of the particular powers and functions that the Minister has. On the other hand, the provision—and, indeed, it is the only provision—for inquiry in relation to rail closures is subsection (9) of Section 56 of the Transport Act, and that, of course, provides for the consideration of objections to the proposed closures and for a report to the Minister. That is a very different provision from Section 90. As the noble Lord pointed out—and I agree with him—it contains a special, deliberately restricted and well-defined power of inquiry. About that, three points are, I think, especially notable: first, the power of inquiry or of consideration is given to an independent body, the T.U.C.C.; secondly, its scope is confined to proposals for closing passenger services or stations; and, thirdly, within that scope the inquiry is confined to the one aspect of hardship. I am over-simplifying, perhaps, but it is most important to double clarify, if necessary, exactly what is the position of that power.
Now my noble friend, it seems to me, is trying to amend subsection (9) of Section 56 in a most ingenious manner, which would not require a change in the

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law; and, as he told us, he has sought to do it by invoking the wide general powers of inquiry under Section 90. Those powers, I certainly agree, are very useful in appropriate circumstances. I can see what he is driving at here, and it is something in which the noble Lord, Lord Stonham, supported him, but they must remember that this suggestion that they have put forward follows very soon after Parliament has taken a decision on this very matter. Consider what happened only a year ago. The question of which method should be adopted for considering closure proposals was before Parliament when the Transport Bill was debated. The machinery of examination in Section 56 was what was finally approved. In taking this decision, Parliament deliberately selected certain features for consideration by the T.U.C.C.s from among the number of things which they might have considered. Notably, for the first time, it provided a statutory process by which objections to proposed passenger closures by users or by bodies representing them were required to be heard before the event by the independent T.U.C.C.s, and it confined the main function to an assessment of hardship. So what my noble friend is trying to do, as I see it, is, in effect, to reverse a decision taken at a very recent date by Parliament on the machinery of inquiry which is appropriate to these proposals.
Although the Act makes available the machinery of inquiry under Section 90 in relation to any of the Minister's powers, Section 56 provides this special procedure as to the regular and, indeed, the obligatory machinery of inquiry that is to take place before proposed passenger closures can lawfully happen. I do not think any Government should entertain the proposition that a statutory pattern which has so recently been set by Parliament should be radically altered in the way which my noble friend suggests at this stage, with as yet so little experience of its working. Because I cannot find it easy to agree that the provisions of the Act deny the public the opportunities they should have to object to a closure proposal. Within the scope of the T.U.C.C.s' consideration they have an opportunity which I should have thought would be described as ample. Again, they get public notice of the proposal. There is the six-week
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period in which to lodge objections; and once a single objection is lodged the case has to be considered by the T.U.C.C., who must then report on the hardship to the Minister. And the closure cannot take place until the Minister has given his consent.
The noble Lord, Lord Stonham, thought—and I say this in good faith—came precariously close to being somewhat misleading to the House when he asked how all these things could happen within the period, which he described as "short", between the notice being given and the date on which a closure was proposed to take place. He gave the impression—perhaps he did not mean to—that because a proposal had been made that something should be closed on September 8 there was some almighty power that dictated that it had to happen on that day and any considerations had to be stuffed into the intervening period. That is not so.
The purpose of the procedure that the T.U.C.C.s follow under Section 56 is that when a closure is opposed the machinery starts; and I do not suppose for a moment that in all cases the considerations will be completed within the period. In the circumstances the closure will not take place until later, if it takes place at all.
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, may I interrupt for a moment? I would say that I did not mislead the House at all, nor am I in ignorance of these facts. What I protest about is that British Railways should make the announcement of a closing date when, by the nature of things, as the noble Lord and I are well aware, it is virtually impossible in reason for it to take place on that date. It is quite wrong to create the wrong impression and mislead people in that way.
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, that is exactly where the noble Lord is coming close to misleading the House; because in no case that I know have the Railways Board announced a closing date. I did not want to bring this point up, particularly because it is better suited for to-morrow; but, in fact, they have announced their proposals, which is a different thing. If the noble Lord tries to tell us that it is not a different thing, then he is not being fair to his subject; because one thing that must happen is

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that when proposals are put forward they must have a date on them. That is one of the things that must be done. Therefore it is not correct to say that when they are putting forward a proposal, including a date, they are announcing the closing of a particular line or station on that date; they are announcing that they propose it should be closed on that date. There is a difference there and it is rather an important difference.
Noble Lords are interested in the question of hardship. I am not going to attempt to discuss what hardship means; it would, in fact, be quite wrong for me to do so. The reason why is a significant one. In the Act, hardship is of course not defined, and, in practical terms, the lack of definition means that hardship is left to the T.U.C.C. to assess on the evidence that is brought before them at the hearing. Any user who can demonstrate that the closure would produce hardship, to whatever extent and for whatever reason, will have his objection properly considered and carefully weighed by the Committee.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: My Lords, forgive me for interrupting. The noble Lord himself, when discussing the Transport Bill, said a certain amount about this; and it was on this point that I was asking him. Perhaps I can remind him. He said:
" It is clearly desirable that the reports that the Minister receives and on which he is to found his consideration should be based on broadly similar lines and should adopt broadly similar criteria and standards for assessment of hardship."
The point I was making was that here is Wales and Monmouth making a very wide assessment with which I fully agreed. If we cannot have these inquiries, will be give his blessing that they should all adopt the same width?
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, I cannot see anything inconsistent between what I said then and now; because I think it would be a genuine cause of complaint for the user if the meanings of hardship were somewhere laid down. It would have been very difficult to lay down a comprehensive definition of hardship which would take in all possible reasons why people might suffer it. To attempt to do that and not to leave the question to the T.U.C.C. to assess hardship
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on the evidence before them would be a grave disservice to the user. I should hope that there would be a consistency of operation between the T.U.C.C.s, but, at the same time, it would be wrong to exclude any particular matter which can be described in the widest context as hardship. I am sure I am right about that.
What my noble friend and the noble Lord, Lord Stonham, want is much wider public discussion of matters other than hardship. The first, and perhaps the most important, is the economics of the service. My noble friend, if I understood him right, thinks that the commercial justification for each closure ought to be examined and debated in public. That is exactly what happened before the 1962 Act was passed; and that is exactly what Parliament deliberately changed in Section 56 of the Act. There were at least three good reasons for making that change. First, the new Railways Board was enjoined to operate on a commercially sound basis. Its general duty is "to provide railway services in Great Britain"; its financial duty is to break even as soon as possible. It was given a wide measure of freedom for achieving those objects. Requirements to justify in detail each closure proposal would hardly be consistent with these duties, and particularly when justifying them, as is suggested, in quarters and to people on whom those duties do not lie. The decision to propose the closure of a service or station is a plain matter of management. It is part of the operation of running a transport undertaking on commercial lines.
Secondly, under the old procedure, arguments about figures and alternative methods of operation wasted a lot of the T.U.C.C.s' time. These committees are voluntary local bodies and they were not, and indeed are not now, really equipped to deal with that kind of argument. They are ideally suited to the task they now have of assessing hardship and advising on alternative services. I might mention a point on alternative services which was raised by the noble Lord, Lord Stonham. The noble Lord complained that certain proposals he had seen did not give alternative services. As the proposals are only announced at this stage, they would be hardly likely to do so, when they have

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yet to go before the T.U.C.C., which would consider that aspect of them.
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, I disagree with the noble Lord, because these are detailed proposals, which in fact detail the available alternative services but say nothing whatever about a 10-mile gap where there are no alternatives at all. As the noble Lord will be aware, his right honourable friend would have the right to direct the Railways Board to provide an alternative service, if he thought fit.
LORD CHESHAM: I agree; but no doubt that particular aspect would be brought to his attention by the T.U.C.C. in their consideration. I do not think it is a very strong ground of complaint that the whole of that aspect had not been pre-considered by the Railways Board when putting through the proposal. I do not think we should complain about that.
The third point is that a decision to refuse consent on a closure or to insist on an alternative service is likely to mean expenditure by the Railways Board and hence, as things are to-day, by the Exchequer. Responsibility for that decision is placed by the new Act squarely where it belongs: on the Minister. Therefore I say it is right that he should be the one to judge the economic factors involved, though, of course, he would be helped by the T.U.C.C.'s advice on hardship.
I come to the other factors which the Minister must assess before deciding whether or not to give his consent. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Stonham, for reading out a list which I used previously, because it saves my having to do it again, though I would remind your Lordships that it is not intended to be comprehensive. It seems to me that the majority of these non-hardship factors, if I may call them that, if not all of them, fall into one of two categories: either they are management matters, like figures of costs, economics of the line or alternative operating methods, or they are matters within the scope of Government Departments, like defence and planning.
In the first category, successive Ministers of Transport have always set their faces against intervening in management. We consider that the Board of a
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nationalised industry should be allowed to get on with its job without any more interference by the Government than is absolutely essential. This is even more important in the general philosophy of the 1962 Act than it was before. These management matters, therefore, are scarcely appropriate to a public examination, except in so far as they may cause hardship to individuals.
In the second category of matters, such as planning, no doubt the Minister will receive direct representations, which he will consider. But his advice on such matters would surely come from the normal process of inter-departmental consultations, and I doubt whether a public inquiry would add significantly to that advice. These are matters which ultimately require judgment in the light of national policies, and this is the function of the Government and in particular of my right honourable friend the Minister of Transport and of his colleagues and advisers. He has already set up the appropriate machinery to ensure that proper advice will be available and to take account of suggestions of this kind which are made by local authorities and others. I have to conclude, therefore, that the sort of changes which are proposed by my noble friend Lord Colville of Culross would expose the railway management decisions to question in a way that was never contemplated by the 1962 Act, without necessarily improving the advice which in any case is available to the Minister on the non-hardship aspects.
I should like to go back for a moment to some of the practical aspects of the noble Viscount's specific suggestion in regard to Section 90. If there were to be an inquiry under Section 90, it would clearly have to take place either before or after or concurrently with the T.U.C.C. consideration. It would have either to include or to exclude matters relating to hardship and alternative services dealt with by the T.U.C.C. I rule out the possibility of the inquiry replacing the T.U.C.C. consideration, because this seems plainly contrary to the intention of the Statute. For the same reason, I argue against an inquiry either before or at the same time as the T.U.C.C. examination of the matter. This leaves us with the possibility of an inquiry after the T.U.C.C. has reported, but I should

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think that this would have an unfortunate effect on the position of the T.U.C.C.s and on public confidence in their work. If the inquiry did not exclude hardship, there would be the possibility that the Minister might receive a different report on that aspect from the inquiry than he would from the T.U.C.C., and in that case the effect would be even worse.
Obviously, a great deal of importance has been attached to the channels that exist for giving the public the opportunity for making representations on grounds other than hardship, and I recognise the importance which both noble Lords attach to that side of the matter. As your Lordships know, the Government have already consulted a large number of representative organisations about the Board's proposals generally. Organisations and members of the public have also voluntarily made their views known on general issues and particular proposals, and certainly a lot of it has been of great value. My right honourable friend the Minister of Transport has also made it quite clear that he will carefully consider all relevant representations that are made to him when the Board give formal notice of a particular closure proposal. Views on matters other than hardship are likely to come more especially from local authorities and other responsible bodies. Their views will certainly be fully taken into account.
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, to whom should a local authority send the information, if they are of the opinion that a line which it is proposed to close could be made viable by reducing or modifying the service? That is a management matter, which the noble Lord said would be excluded. To whom should the representations be made?
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, the representations mentioned should be sent to the Minister. That does not exclude the possibility that, if the matter was a planning one, it might not reasonably be submitted to the Department that would normally deal with it. I should have thought that on the whole it was more convenient to make all representations to the Minister of Transport, with copies to the Department concerned; but the fact that in a planning matter only it might be sent to the Ministry of Housing and Local Government certainly
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would in no way inhibit its consideration by the Minister of Transport through the normal channels of inter-departmental consultation. My right honourable friend has also said that he will not hesitate to consult local authorities and other bodies if he thinks that they can help him on particular points.
We come to this as the position. The Minister will take two things into account when a closure proposal comes before him. First of all, there is the T.U.C.C.'s report on hardship. I would remind your Lordships again that this can include proposals for additional bus services or something to relieve the hardship if the trains go. Secondly, on the other side, there are all the other relevant factors. I think that the assessment of these factors, in the light of national policies, is firmly a matter for the Government, and, as I have pointed out to your Lordships, appropriate arrangements have already been made for this to be done.
LORD HAWKE: My Lords, 95 per cent. of my noble friend's reply could be regarded, I think, as rather unsatisfactory, but the last 5 per cent. was much more satisfactory. There seems to be some confusion in his mind on this question of management decision and to whom one can make representations. If the Minister is going to take fully into account all the possible alternative methods of operating these lines and so on, he is interfering in management decision. I feel that he must do it, but that rather "shoots down" the three original points that my noble friend made about the management decision and the Minister's responsibility for expenditure and so on.
The noble Lord made great play about Parliament having only recently revised the T.U.C.C., so that it would be wrong to enlarge it now. But I think that if Parliament at the time had been aware that proposals were going to be put forward for drastic closures of the railway lines of this country, based on figures which have been widely challenged, and which the Minister is not prepared to see challenged in any form of inquiry, Parliament might have considered that the old original form of tribunal was the more suitable for making these representations.

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I do not want to be misunderstood. I appreciate, and I am sure the general public appreciates, that a great many railways and stations in this country have to be closed. But, at the same time, they want to make certain that the interested people have a full opportunity of putting their points of view and of hearing them answered in public. Anybody who has ever been connected with railways knows how difficult it is to establish the cost of operating any particular piece of railway. Of course, the saving on closing a piece of railway will never be anything like the theoretical cost of operating it.
There is, apparently, to be no discussion on these figures. Then when these local authorities, or users, or anybody else want to put forward suggestions for operating changes, such as operating light railways, there is no chance of discussing it. They can be put forward only to the Minister, who, apparently, will discuss them in his Ministry. The local authorities cannot receive any information about costs; they cannot be told that the cost of operating as a light railway would equally be prohibitive. They have merely to put the proposal to the Minister and leave the decision to him. They have to submit to closure without having any public discussion
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of the alternative proposals from users, or even of the basis for the figures. For the general public this will be most unsatisfactory. Dissatisfaction has already been expressed in the West Sussex area over this sort of thing. It is essential from the public relations point of view that the maximum information shall be available to the people who are going to use their services, otherwise they will feel that they are at the mercy of a diktat from the Ministry of Transport, and they will not like that at all.

REMUNERATION OF TEACHERS BILL
Brought from the Commons, read 1a, and to be printed.

LOCAL EMPLOYMENT BILL
Brought from the Commons endorsed with the Certificate from the Speaker that the Bill is a Money Bill within the meaning of the Parliament Act, 1911; read 1a, and to be printed.
House adjourned at seventeen minutes past seven o'clock.