Sitting of 17 June 1963

Preamble
The House—after the Adjournment on 31st May, 1963, for the Whitsun Recess—met at half-past Two o'clock.
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]

DEATH OF A MEMBER
Mr. Speaker: I regret to have to inform the House of the death of the right honourable Sir David Callender Campbell, K.B.E., C.M.G., Member for Belfast, South, and I desire on behalf of the House to express our sense of the loss we have sustained and our sympathy with the relatives of the right honourable Member.

NEW WRITS
For West Bromwich, in the room of the right honourable John Dugdale, deceased.
For Deptford, in the room of Sir Leslie Arthur Plummer, deceased.—[Mr. Bowden.]

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  PENSIONS AND NATIONAL INSURANCE

    Unemployment Benefit (Short-Time Working)
    Mr. D. Footasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance whether he has now decided to refer to his Advisory Committee the question of unemployment benefit payable to workers on short time.
    The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Pensions and National Insurance (Mrs. Margaret Thatcher): This question was comprehensively examined by the National Insurance Advisory Committee in 1955 and changes in the law affecting workers on short time were approved by Parliament in 1957. My right hon. Friend is keeping this subject under review, but he has no proposals for referring it to the Committee again.
    Mr. Foot: Does not the hon. Lady realise that with the spread of short-time working in many parts of the country this year this has become a really acute problem? Does she not think that it is at least worth further consideration by the Advisory Committee?
    Mrs. Thatcher: The Advisory Committee spent almost two years on this problem and had very wide terms of reference. The differences between its members were very deep and I do not

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    think that any useful purpose would be served by again referring the question to the Advisory Committee.

    Retirement Pensions
    Mr. A. Lewisasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance whether he is aware that, before the receipt of the recently announced increase in retirement pensions, pensioners are having to pay more for bread, butter, sugar and rates, and that the official cost of living figure has again risen to a new high level; and whether he will therefore take steps to increase retirement pensions.
    Mrs. Thatcher: The Retail Prices Index is only about one and a half points higher now than when the pension increases were announced. In general, prices have risen by 8 per cent, since the previous benefit increases. This would have been met by an extra 4s. 6d. on the single rate compared with last month's actual increase of 10s.
    Mr. Lewis: Does not the hon. Lady realise that, on her own statement, prices and the cost of living had risen before the old-age pensioners received their increase, and that the previous pensions increase she mentioned did not compensate for the previous price increases? Is she not aware that this is a continuing problem, because every time the pensioners receive an increase the cost of living has already gone up? Will not the hon. Lady tie pensions to the cost-of-living-index figure?
    Mrs. Thatcher: If I were to accept the hon. Member's suggestion, it would mean that, taking it from 1946, the present single rate of pension would be 48s. 8d. instead of the 67s. 6d. that it is, and that the present married rate would be 78s. 8d. instead of the £5 9s. that it is.

    Home Confinement Grant
    Mrs. Butlerasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance when he proposes to increase the amount of the home confinement grant.
    Mrs. Thatcher: My right hon. Friend has no proposals for increasing the amount of this grant, which is now double what it was when the grant was introduced in 1953.
    Mrs. Butler: Does the Parliamentary Secretary think that the present grant
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    of £6 is adequate to meet all the additional expenses, bearing in mind that the cost of a home help alone is more than £6 for a five-day period? Since more and more mothers are compelled to have their babies at home, is it right that because of the shortage of maternity beds they should suffer financial hardship?
    Mrs. Thatcher: The grant is made as a contribution towards extra expenses. All the medical and nursing expenses are, of course, met. The hon. Lady mentions the additional expense of a home help, but this expense frequently has to be met when the mother is confined in hospital and has a young family left at home.
    Mrs. Butlerasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what arrangements he is making to enable mothers to claim a proportion of the home confinement grant if they are discharged from hospital after 48 hours.
    Mrs. Thatcher: My right hon. Friend does not contemplate any change in the present provisions. The home confinement grant is a single payment of £6 for confinement at home and is additional to the maternity grant of £16. There is already provision for it to be paid in full in the circumstances described in the Question if the mother was admitted to hospital as an emergency case.
    Mrs. Butler: Is the hon. Lady aware that it has become increasingly the practice of hospitals now to discharge mothers after 48 hours? Therefore, these mothers would not come within the scope of the hon. Lady's reply. Since their expenses would be very much the same as those of mothers in home confinements, will the hon. Lady look at the question again?
    Mrs. Thatcher: The maternity grant as such already has an element of attendance allowance in it. Indeed, the two were combined into one in 1953. We put up the maternity grant by £2 in the last increase.

    Earnings
    Mr. Frank Allaunasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance approximately how many people are at present being refused the full National

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    Assistance to which they would be otherwise entitled because their earnings are smaller than that amount.
    Mrs. Thatcher: About 27,000.
    Mr. Allaun: Does not this mean that more than 100,000 children are living on lower than the subsistence level because of the breadwinner's unemployment or sickness? Therefore, would the Minister consider either increasing the family allowances for these children or paying family allowances in all cases up to the third or fourth child?
    Mrs. Thatcher: My right hon. Friend at the moment has no proposals for increasing family allowances.
    Miss Herbison: Surely the hon. Lady is aware that the families in the 27,000 which she has mentioned are living sometimes very much below what the Government have decided is the subsistence level? Since that is the case, surely the Government must give serious thought to what they are going to do to help these families?
    Mrs. Thatcher: As the hon. Lady knows, the problem arises because National Assistance takes account of a person's private obligations and the wages system cannot. We do not think it right to pay more to a person when he is out of work than he could possibly earn when he is employed.
    Mr. Hector Hughesasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance if he is aware that many poor persons with obligations are penalised by the National Assistance earnings rule; and what steps he will take to assist them by an alteration of the rule.
    Mrs. Thatcher: The Board has no proposals for changing the amounts of earnings which are at present disregarded for the purpose of assessing National Assistance allowances.
    Mr. Hughes: The earnings rule penalises people who are willing to work and also reduces national productivity. Is this not a thoroughly unpatriotic penalty upon the people concerned? Will the Minister take steps to see that justice is done to this class of people?
    Mrs. Thatcher: National Assistance is related to actual need. The more one increases the disregards the further one gets away from actual need.
    Mr. Lawson: Is the hon. Lady aware that at present many workers are being given a wage or earnings limit of £9 a week? Irrespective of the children that they have, they are allowed no more than £9 a week, and will the Minister see that these scales are brought up or that the earnings rule is altered?
    Mrs. Thatcher: The weekly earnings limit was changed in 1959. It is now 30s. a week plus half of the next 20s. for persons not required to register for work. For an unemployed person who has to register for work it is 15s. a week.
    Mr. Liptonasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance how many widows now have their pensions reduced by the new earnings rule; and what is the saving to public funds as a result.
    Mrs. Thatcher: It is too soon to assess the effects of the recent changes in the earnings rules, but from earlier information, we think that the number of widow beneficiaries affected will be of the order of 70,000 and the annual amount involved about £6½ million.
    Mr. Lipton: In view of those figures in comparison with the figures announced in reply to previous Questions, does not the hon. Lady think the time has come to abolish the earnings rule altogether and also to remove many of the other anomalies and injustices which affect widows?
    Mrs. Thatcher: There is a good deal to be said for a view to which I do not think the hon. Gentleman has given quite enough consideration, namely, that the widow whose family responsibilities preclude her from being able to go out to work should get more from the National Insurance Fund than the widow who can earn quite appreciably.
    Mr. Speaker: I must ask the House to exercise some restraint about the number of decibels in conversation.

    Insurance Contributions
    Mr. Hannanasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance if he will state the total weekly insurance contribution, including graduated contribution, today of an adult male worker earning £17 per week, and the weekly

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    insurance contribution payable by such a worker in June, 1951.
    Mrs. Thatcher: The weekly contribution payable for National Insurance and Industrial Injuries by an adult male worker earning £17 per week and participating in the graduated part of the National Insurance scheme is 15s. 10½d. Of this, 6s. 11d. is the graduated contribution. In June, 1951, when there were, of course, no arrangements for graduated pensions, the contribution payable for insurance was 4s. 2½d.
    Mr. Hannan: Does not the Minister appreciate that these figures show the swingeing increase that has taken place in indirect taxation and that her Department is being used as a tool by the Treasury to pursue its financial policies? Is it not time that the Government recognised that the graduated scheme is a fraud perpetrated on the population? When are they going to review the circumstances?
    Mrs. Thatcher: The only thing which would be a fraud would be if we were to try to persuade the population that large increases in benefits could be had without large increases in contributions.
    Mr. W. Hamiltonasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance if he will state the weekly insurance contribution paid by an adult male worker in 1951, 1955, 1959, and in June, 1963, assuming that he is now contracted out of the graduated pensions scheme.
    Mrs. Thatcher: The weekly contribution paid for National Insurance and Industrial Injuries by an adult male worker was 4s. 2½d., 6s. 0½d., and 8s. 0½d. in June, 1951, 1955 and 1959, respectively. The present insurance contribution paid by such a worker contracted out of the graduated pensions scheme is 11s. 4½d.
    Mr. Hamilton: Does the hon. Lady not realise that this is a very swingeing form of regressive taxation? Does she not further agree that these low income groups have lost much more by this form of regressive taxation than they could possibly have gained by any Income Tax concessions which the present Government have conceded? Will the hon. Lady undertake to produce these figures in graphical form as part of the Tory propaganda in the coming election?
    Mrs. Thatcher: I will leave the hon. Gentleman to do his own homework. I am sure he is capable of doing the graph himself from the figures. I do not agree that it is a swingeing form of taxation. Our present system of insurance means that those with lower incomes pay less while those with higher incomes pay more for their retirement pensions. Those with higher incomes, again, pay more towards the Exchequer contribution. That seems to be sensible.
    Sir C. Osborne: Will not my hon. Friend confirm that the average industrial wage in 1951 was £7 10s. whereas today it is nearly £16 a week? Therefore, with increased wages, is it not reasonable to expect the worker to pay more for the social benefits that he gets?
    Mrs. Thatcher: Average earnings when the first contribution was fixed in October, 1946, were 120s. 9d. Average earnings for October, 1962, the latest date for which figures are available, were 317s. 3d.
    Mr. Ross: Can the hon. Lady say what a man earning £7 10s. in 1951 would have paid and what he would pay today?
    Mrs. Thatcher: There is a Question on the Order Paper later. I have just given these figures, including the present contracted-out contribution.

    Widowed Mother's Allowance
    Dame Irene Wardasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance whether he will make a statement on continuing the widowed mother's allowance in respect of children remaining at the age of 18 years at school awaiting their university places.
    Mr. Hector Hughesasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance if he is aware of the hardship imposed on widowed mothers of children of 18 years of age awaiting university places by the present regulation relating to mother's allowance in such cases; and if he will now take steps to remove this hardship.
    Mrs. Thatcher: My right hon. Friend replied to a similar Question on 20th May, and I have nothing to add to that reply.
    Dame Irene Ward: Is my hon. Friend aware that the reply to the Question on 20th May was that the Minister could not give an answer? Would my

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    hon. Friend be kind enough to let me know when the Minister's representations to the Cabinet have received an answer and when I may put down a Question so that we may know that action is being taken?
    Mrs. Thatcher: I will naturally do all in my power to help my hon. Friend. Perhaps it will assist her to know that her representations made earlier in the year have made a profound impression upon us.
    Mr. Brockway: Is the hon. Lady aware that a very large number of boys and girls are now staying on at school till they are 19 years of age, among other purposes to sit for university examinations, and in these circumstances will she not do something to help their widowed mothers who have great difficulty in maintaining them during that period?
    Mrs. Thatcher: The hon. Gentleman knows that in most cases education maintenance grants are available after the age of 18 and are assessed according to the income of the widow. The scheme which we have to operate gives allowances regardless of means, and at the moment we think the education maintenance grant is a more suitable vehicle.
    Mr. Hughes: Does the Minister not realise that it is not the fault of either the mother or the child that they are poor and that they should not be penalised for their poverty? Steps should be taken to ensure that they are not so penalised and that the child is given a proper opportunity for education.
    Mrs. Thatcher: The hon. and learned Gentleman's Question refers only to those staying at school awaiting university places. A number of other children are also affected. Further, there are amongst recipients of the widowed mother's allowance people whose personal circumstances vary very widely. I could not therefore, agree with the hon. and learned Gentleman's sweeping generalisation.
    Miss Herbison: Surely the Minister ought to give some regard to the children of widowed mothers? Is she aware that to draw our attention to the maintenance grants that are paid is of no help at all, since these maintenance grants are decided, at the beginning of the year and if a student becomes 18 before the end
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    of the school year the grants are not received. No National Assistance is paid and no unemployment benefit can be paid until the student leaves school and registers as an unemployed person. Surely something could be done to help people in these circumstances?
    Mrs. Thatcher: A great deal has been done by this Government to help widowed mothers. Indeed, the widowed mother's allowance has gone up in the last twelve years from 40s. to 97s. 6d.

    National Insurance Fund
    Mr. Rossasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance if he will estimate the amount to be paid into the National Insurance Fund this year by contributions to the graduated insurance scheme, and the total amount to be paid out.
    Mrs. Thatcher: It is estimated that graduated contributions and payments in lieu will total £232 million and that £1,401 million will be paid out of the National Insurance Fund.
    Mr. Ross: Will the Minister answer the Question that she knew was being asked? What is being paid out in respect of graduated pensions for this year?
    Mrs. Thatcher: I answered the question which the hon. Gentleman asked. I will answer his supplementary: the sum is approximately £½ million.
    Mr. Ross: The answer is that the hon. Lady's Department will collect £232 million this year in graduated contributions and will pay out in respect of the responsibilities for that £.½million.Is the Minister aware that there is a growing dissatisfaction and realisation that this is essentally unfair, and will she take steps to ensure that both immediately and ultimately people will get value for the money being deducted from their wages?
    Mrs. Thatcher: I find no growing dissatisfaction with the National Insurance Scheme except that engendered by hon. Members opposite.
    Mr. Lawsonasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance if he will estimate the total amount paid into the National Insurance Fund since its inception by people who have now retired or died and in respect of whom no graduated pensions liability was acquired.
    Mrs. Thatcher: I regret that the available information does not enable me to do so.
    Mr. Lawson: If the hon. Lady looks into this question she might be able to give us some explanation why it is that the contributions, as a percentage of benefits, have gone up from 74 per cent, in 1959 to 84 per cent. in 1962. Does this not suggest that there is a very large fraudulent extraction of contributions from the people of this country?
    Mrs. Thatcher: I make no comment on the actual figures given by the hon. Gentleman. I do not agree that it is a fraudulent extraction. Of those now drawing retirement pensions, the man who retired this year aged 65 could not have contributed, had he entered the scheme in 1926, more than £240 towards the cost of his pension, together with a similar sum on the part of his employer. The capital value of the pension for such a man, if single, is £1,700 and, if married, £3,500.
    Mr. Mitchison: Is not the net result of all this that the Treasury is paying less and less by way of its contribution?
    Mrs. Thatcher: This year the Exchequer is paying some £212 million to the National Insurance Fund.
    Mr. J. Bennettasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what was the total income of the National Insurance Fund from employed persons and employers, respectively, including graduated contributions, in the year 1959–60; and what is the estimated income for the current year.
    Mrs. Thatcher: In 1959–60 contributions from employed persons were £319 million and from employers £352 million. The estimates for this year, including graduated contributions and payments in lieu under the graduated pension scheme introduced in 1961, are about £499 million from employees and £562 million from employers.
    Mr. Bennett: Will not the hon. Lady agree that this increase in revenue is really the result of a hidden form of taxation which falls heavily on those who can afford it least?
    Mrs. Thatcher: The increases in contributions are primarily caused by the
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    large increases in benefits. They are further caused by the increasing number of people drawing increased benefits.

    National Assistance
    Mr. Millanasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance if he will estimate the reduction in the number of weekly allowances paid by the National Assistance Board consequent on the introduction of the new National Insurance scales.
    Mrs. Thatcher: Just over 66,000 National Assistance supplements to National Insurance benefits have ceased in consequence of the increases made this year in the rates of those benefits.
    Mr. Millan: Is this figure not a demonstration of the fact that because National Assistance scales have been increased to a much less extent than National Insurance scales in the last increase the people who are by definition among the very poorest, namely, those on National Assistance, are getting the smallest increases, and is this not thoroughly undesirable?
    Mrs. Thatcher: Hon. Members opposite complain when we have too many people on National Assistance. They now complain because we increased National Insurance benefit rates to take some people off National Assistance. That figure is inflated by the ending of discretionary winter fuel payments in April.
    Mr. J. Hillasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance if he will estimate the weekly reduction in expenditure by the National Assistance Board following the introduction of the new National Insurance benefit scales.
    Mrs. Thatcher: £200,000. But the joint effect of the recent National Insurance and National Assistance changes has been to increase the total income of recipients of national assistance by about £670,000 a week.
    Mr. Hill: Will not the hon. Lady agree that because of these figures it is time that the Government thought again? As my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Craigton (Mr. Millan) has already said, people with the lowest possible incomes are suffering because of the

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    National Assistance level not being increased v/hen the pensions were increased.
    Mrs. Thatcher: I showed in my original answer that people on the lowest possible incomes are now getting some £670,000 a week more than they were previously.

    Blyth (National Assistance)
    Mr. Milneasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what effect rises in the number of unemployed have on the payment of National Assistance; and what were the amounts paid in the Blyth constituency during the years 1958, 1959, 1960, 1961, and 1962, respectively.
    Mrs. Thatcher: If the number of persons unemployed rises, and, in consequence, there is an increase in the number of such persons who apply for National Assistance, the effect is, of course, to raise expenditure on National Assistance. I regret that figures asked for by the hon. Member are not now available for years before 1961. The total amount of National Assistance paid to persons registering at employment exchanges in the Blyth constituency was: about £29,200 in 1961 and about £48,400 in 1962.
    Mr. Milne: Is the hon. Lady aware of the corroding effect of unemployment and the fact that it leads to increased expenditure of this sort which would be far more gainfully employed in bringing new jobs to the area, and will she consult the appropriate Government Department responsible for this unemployment to see that they do something about it?
    Mrs. Thatcher: My right hon. Friend is pursuing that question very vigorously. The figures for which I am answerable show that the people who are unemployed have no hesitation in seeking help from the National Assistance Board.
    Mr. Milneasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what was the amount of National Assistance paid out in the Blyth constituency during 1962; and what effect the new pensions increase will have on the figure for 1963.
    Mrs. Thatcher: For reasons which have been explained to the House previously, it is not possible to give the total amount of National Assistance paid to all recipients in a particular locality.
    Mr. Milne: Is the hon. Lady aware that some of the recent pensions increases have been detracted from because of the method of paying National Assistance, and will she look again more closely into this matter, which is having an adverse effect not only in my constituency but throughout the country?
    Mrs. Thatcher: The combined effect of recent pensions increases and National Assistance increases means that more will be spent next year on National Assistance than this year—because of the last but one National Assistance increase. For 1963–64, the estimated expenditure on National Assistance grants is £209 million, compared with £196 million last year.

    Industrial Injuries
    Mr. Prenticeasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance whether he will introduce legislation to repeal Section 7(3) of the Industrial Injuries Act, which provides that benefit is not payable for accidents occurring outside Great Britain, in view of the breach made in this principle by the large number of bilateral agreements with other countries which enable benefit to be paid in these cases.
    The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Pensions and National Insurance (Lieut.-Commander S. L. C. Maydon): Where there is a reciprocal agreement, it can specify which legislation should cover any accident happening in one or other of the two countries, and, if our legislation covers an accident happening in the other country, we can rely on the authorities of that country to make inquiries on our behalf. To this extent, reciprocal agreements, the making of which was provided for in Sections 84 and 85 of the National Insurance (Industrial Injuries) Act, 1946, do not represent a breach of Section 7(3) of that Act. But we can apply our legislation in another country only if we have an agreement with that country. My right hon. Friend therefore has no proposals for amending the Act in the manner suggested by the hon. Member.
    Mr. Prentice: Have we now reached this position, that a British worker abroad—for example, a coach driver taking holiday-makers—if he is injured in, say, France, Italy, or one of several

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    other countries, will get benefit under our Industrial Injuries legislation, whereas if he is injured in, say, Spain he will not, although he has been contributing to the fund and so has his employer? Does not this create an anomaly, and will the Government look at the matter again to see whether everyone can be put on the same footing?
    Lieut-Commander Maydon: There are very many workers working throughout the world whose employers have some link with this country, and it would be far too difficult to specify which of these workers our legislation should cover. If we applied our legislation abroad without a reciprocal agreement, there might be duplicate cover for benefit if we could not rely on the authorities of the country concerned to co-operate with us.
    Mr. Mitchison: Where is the sense or justice in making the remedies for an injured man dependent upon the existence or non-existence of an agreement of this kind? Is it not high time that this tangle was looked at again?
    Lieut.-Commander Maydon: I assure the hon. and learned Gentleman that we are constantly looking at these agreements to see how they can be improved. We have come to our present conclusions after considerable examination.

  GOVERNMENT INFORMATION SERVICES

    Captain Ivanov
    Mr. Shinwellasked the Minister without Portfolio what information he received from Press and other sources between the months of January and March of 1963 regarding the activities of Captain Ivanov, who was on the staff of the Soviet Embassy, and of his relations with members of Her Majesty's Government.
    The Minister without Portfolio (Mr. W. F. Deedes): It is not my practice to make public any information of this kind.
    Mr. Shinwell: Are we not to understand that the right hon. Gentleman has the responsibility of gathering information from various sources and conveying it to the Government? Why should there be any secrecy about the information in
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    his possession? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Lord President of the Council, Lord Hailsham, addressing the community in general the other night, declared that it was immoral for any member of the Government to indulge in evasion? Are we to understand that this is what the right hon. Gentleman is doing? Why cannot he come clean?
    Mr. Deedes: The right hon. Gentleman must understand nothing of the kind. It would be quite intolerable if information received in this way by Ministers were to be treated as the right hon. Gentleman invites me to treat it. He must not anticipate the debate to which the House is coming.
    Mr. Shinwell: What has it got to do with the debate which is about to take place? I am entitled to ask the question and to expect an answer from the right hon. Gentleman. Is it the new Government dictum that information in the possession of the Government which may have some relation to espionage or attempted espionage is not to be made known to hon. Members?
    Mr. Deedes: The right hon. Gentleman knows that to be quite incorrect. He must await the statement my right hon. Friend will make in the debate this afternoon.

  MINISTRY OF HEALTH

    Doctors (Pay)
    Mr. Pavittasked the Minister of Health what was the total deduction from the central pool in respect of payments made to general practitioners by local health authorities for each of the last three years.
    The Minister of Health (Mr. Enoch Powell): I will, with permission, circulate the information in the Official Report.
    Mr. Pavitt: I am pleased to see the Minister in his place for this brief period. Can he say whether these figures indicate that there has been a considerable shifting of the burden of the cost of the National Health Service from the Exchequer to the local rates? Further, is not it unfair to general practitioners in that they have been paid for 3 million

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    inoculations last year and then, in the final settlement, the money has again been taken away from them?
    Mr. Powell: The figures do not bear out that general contention, and, in any case, it is agreed that the average net remuneration of practitioners should include what they receive from all official sources.
    Mr. Rankin: Has this situation anything to do with the fact that the 14 per cent. increase which the general practitioners were supposed to get is now being reduced to 7 per cent.?
    Mr. Powell: No, it cannot have because this question refers to the past.
    Following is the information:
    Payments from all local authorities for the last three years for which figures are available were as follows:

    1959–60

    £1,763,547

    1960–61

    £1,344,725

    1961–62

    £2,007,960

    The figure for 1962–63 is not yet known. Separate figures are not available for payments from local health authorities.
    Mr. Pavittasked the Minister of Health if he will ask the review body on doctors' salaries to make a special study of the differentials existing between family doctors and consultants with a view to including a recommendation on this subject in its next report.
    Mr. Powell: No, Sir. It is open to the Review Body to do this, if it sees fit, without being asked by the Government.
    Mr. Pavitt: Is the Minister aware that there is considerable concern among family doctors about this matter, and does he realise that the recent pay award, owing to the different methods whereby consultants and general practitioners are paid, has meant that the differential has widened, the 14 per cent. award given to consultants having worked out, in fact, to only 7 per cent. for general practitioners? Will the right hon. Gentleman again consider asking the Review Body to examine the matter further?
    Mr. Powell: This was looked at by both the Royal Commission and the Review Body.

    Sterile Syringe Service
    Dr. Dickson Mabonasked the Minister of Health if he will make a statement on his reconsideration of the proposal to provide a free service of sterile syringes for use in the general medical service.
    Mr. Powell: Various proposals are under discussion with representatives of the medical profession. I have no statement to make at present.
    Dr. Mabon: Does the Minister realise that, while his answer about the use of this service in hospitals has been welcomed by the hospital authorities, doctors in general practice have a very keen interest in the matter and would welcome an early decision?
    Mr. Powell: Yes, and I am anxious that the growing use of central sterile supply departments should help in supplying general practitioners, but, of course, that is separate from the question of a free service.

    Dental Estimates Board
    Mr. Hornbyasked the Minister of Health what is the average number of requests per week received by the Dental Estimates Board from dentists asking permission to carry out treatment; what proportion of these requests is granted; and what proportion is turned down or amended.
    The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health (Mr. Bernard Braine): About 35,000; over 99 per cent.; less than 1 per cent.
    Mr. Hornby: In view of those figures, will my hon. Friend look at the quantity of work which is now being discharged by the Dental Estimates Board and see whether some of this very large volume of work could be more usefully discharged by those who have direct dealings with their patients?
    Mr. Braine: These figures relate, of course, to approval of treatment. The 99 per cent, includes cases where the proposed treatment is approved but the fee allowed by the Board is lower than that requested. My hon. Friend will know that in such cases the dentist may appeal against the reduced fee, and he is not prevented from carrying on with

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    the treatment meanwhile. As with any financial control procedure, it is a mistake to assume that, in its absence, the amount of unnecessary work would be so small.
    Mr. K. Robinson: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there have been a number of complaints from dental practitioners about refusal of permission for general an aesthetics? Is not this a matter which should be left to the clinical judgment of the dentist who, after all, is the only person in possession of the facts?
    Mr. Braine: That is another question. If the hon. Gentleman will put it down, I shall be happy to answer it.
    Mr. Hornbyasked the Minister of Health how many people are employed by the Dental Estimates Board.
    Mr. Braine: One thousand two hundred and thirty-nine including 165 part-time.
    Mr. Hornby: Will my hon. Friend look at this question again both on the ground of the cost of operation and on the ground of the treatment of patients?
    Mr. Braine: My hon. Friend may be interested to know that the cost of salaries and wages of the Board's staff represents about 1·5 per cent. of the total fees authorised. The Estimates Committee in its recent Report expressed the view that the Board's day-to-day business was carried out with considerable efficiency.

    HOSPITALS

      Nurses (Working Hours)
      Mr. Boydenasked the Minister of Health how many hospital groups have not yet been able to implement fully the 88-hour fortnight for nursing staff.
      Mr. Braine: The current figure is being obtained; when it is available I will write to the hon. Member.
      Mr. Boyden: Are the teaching hospitals lagging behind the general hospitals in implementing this reform?
      Mr. Braine: Eighteen months ago there were only 79 hospital groups which had not implemented fully the 88-hour fortnight for nursing staff. Since then, substantial progress has been made. I advise
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      the hon. Gentleman to await the letter which I shall send to him.

      Student Nurses (Psychiatric Hospitals)
      Mr. Boydenasked the Minister of Health whether the recent decline in the number of student nurses in psychiatric hospitals has now been checked; and how the present number in training compares with 1960.
      Mr. Braine: Yes, Sir. The latest figure 7,533 is only 141 below the peak figure in March, 1960.
      Mr. Boyden: Is the hon. Gentleman satisfied that the recruitment is sufficient to enable him to carry out the hospital plan for psychiatric hospitals?
      Mr. Braine: I should be very foolish if I ever said that I was satisfied with anything in this important field, but the total nursing staff in psychiatric hospitals of all kinds and grades together at 31st March, 1963, was the highest ever recorded.

      Newsham Genera! Hospital, Liverpool
      Mrs. Braddockasked the Minister of Heath if he has considered the request of the Liverpool Regional Hospital Board to be allowed to proceed with certain schemes submitted to him under the arrangement, Monies to Relieve Unemployment, sent to him at the beginning of May, 1963; and when permission under these arrangements can be expected in order to complete the hacking and plastering of the remaining section of the walls in the main corridor at Newsham General Hospital, Liver pool.
      Mr. Braine: It is for the Board to decide when to start this scheme. There is no proposal to increase their current allocation.
      Mrs. Braddock: Is it not a fact that the Ministry has asked regional hospital boards to consider schemes under a certain amount in order to relieve unemployment and that details of such schemes were sent in by the Liverpool Regional Hospital Board nearly two months ago? When will we have some indication that jobs of this sort will be allowed to be done, in view of the fact that the Ministry has asked for this?
      Mr. Braine: The hon. Lady is correct in the first part of her supplementary question. In January, my right hon. Friend authorised the Board to undertake additional works at a total cost of £76,174 provided that they could be started before the end of the financial year and completed within six months. The scheme to which the hon. Lady's Question refers is estimated to cost £972. This is entirely a matter for the Board to decide within its priorities.
      Mrs. Braddock: May I press this matter, because that is not the information which the management committee has been given? We are given to understand that the Ministry has to sanction the schemes under this arrangement before the Board can get on with them. If there is some difficulty about this matter, will the hon. Gentleman make it perfectly clear to the regional hospital boards that they can proceed without the sanction of the Ministry?
      Mr. Braine: I must emphasise that this is entirely a matter for the regional hospital boards. With regard to the allocation of funds for work to be done for the general purpose the hon. Lady has in mind, my right hon. Friend made his decision last January.

    EMPLOYMENT

      Cost of Living
      Mr. A. Lewisasked the Minister of Labour whether he will publish in HANSARD a table of figures giving the annual increase in the cost of living since April 1945, taking that year as representing 100.
      The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour (Mr. William Whitelaw): I will, with permission, publish in the Official Report a table covering the period 1947 to 1962. Comparable figures are not available for the period before 1947.
      Mr. Lewis: Can the hon. Gentleman say whether the trend has been up or down since 1951? If it has been up, when do the Government intend to carry out their promise, made consistently since 1951, to reduce the cost of living? May we have some idea as to when that great event will take place?
      Mr. Whitelaw: I can confirm that the trend has been upwards. If I were to make any other comment on what the hon. Gentleman has said, it would be that the figures show the paramount need for a successful incomes policy in this country.
      The following is the table referred to above:
      Movement of Retail Prices Indices 1947–1962 Annual Averages
      (Note: The Table has been constructed by linking together the three separate retail prices index series introduced in June 1947, January 1956, and January 1962.)

      17th June, 1947=100

      1947 (July to December)

      101·6

      1948 (January to December)

      107·7

      1949 (January to December)

      110·7

      1950 (January to December)

      114·1

      1951 (January to December)

      124·5

      1952 (January to December)

      135·9

      1953 (January to December)

      140·1

      1954 (January to December)

      142·7

      1955 (January to December)

      149·1

      1956 (January to December)

      156·5

      1957 (January to December)

      162·3

      1958 (January to December)

      167·2

      1959 (January to December)

      168·1

      1960 (January to December)

      169·8

      1961 (January to December)

      175·7

      1962 (January to December)

      183·1

      Ripley Office, Derbyshire
      Mr. Oliverasked the Minister of Labour whether he will give further consideration to the accommodation at the employment exchange at Ripley, Derbyshire, in view of the need to give a much longer period for the payment of benefits to avoid long queues in the street and secure more privacy at the counter.
      Mr. Whitelaw: My right hon. Friend is satisfied that the accommodation and arrangements for the payment of unemployment benefit at the part-time local office at Ripley, Derbyshire, are adequate to deal with the normal volume of public business and that reasonable privacy is provided.
      Mr. Oliver: Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will ask his right hon. Friend how he knows that the time for payment is adequate. If the extension of the time for payment would enable more people to be attended to instead of their having to stand in the rain when the weather is bad, the local complaints are justifiable and should be looked into to.
      Mr. Whitelaw: One must accept that during the early months of this year when there was a substantial increase in the numbers temporarily suspended there were some delays. These people are now back at work and we feel that the arrangements at the local office at Ripley are adequate to deal with the present register. If necessary at any time in the future, the hours of opening of the local office will be extended.

      North-East
      Mr. P. Williamsasked the Minister of Labour what are the latest figures of unemployed in the North-East; and what is his forecast of the position in three, six, nine and 12 months' time.
      Mr. Whitelaw: On 13th May the number of unemployed was 58,013, representing a rate of 5 per cent. My right hon. Friend cannot make precise forecasts, but he would expect the recent improvement to continue with the general revival of economic activity and as a result of the special measures already taken to assist the area.

      Shipbuilding
      Mr. P. Williamsasked the Minister of Labour how many men are now employed in shipbuilding; how this figure compares with 12 months ago; and what he expects the position to be in six and 12 months' time.
      Mr. Whitelaw: In April, 1963, there were 141,700 male employees in shipbuilding and ship-repairing, compared with 162,800 in April, 1962. My right hon. Friend cannot forecast the future level of employment.
      Mr. Williams: Is my hon. Friend aware that the Answers to this Question and Question No. 32 indicate a lack of forecasting ability by the Government? In terms of drawing in new industry, surely the Government know the consequences of their own plans and whether they will succeed in them or not?
      Mr. Whitelaw: I do not think I can accept that these figures show any lack of forward planning. My hon. Friend knows perfectly well of the difficulties of the shipbuilding industries throughout the world in which these figures are
      24
      necessarily contained. Of course, the present difficult position in the shipbuilding industry is the reason why my right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport recently announced his scheme for assisting the industry.
      Dr. Bray: Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that in Newcastle-upon-Tyne last Saturday Lord Hailsham said that he thought that he had too much to do? Is he further aware that his own Ministry has even more to do and that the failure of the Government to do anything at all about the unemployment in the North-East has completely shattered the confidence of everybody in the North-East?
      Mr. Whitelaw: I could not accept for one moment that the Government have done nothing about the unemployment position in the North-East. I could give the hon. Gentleman a very considerable catalogue of measures which have been taken, starting with the considerable energies of the Lord President of the Council, which have done a great deal in improving the position in the North-East.
      Mr. R. W. Elliott: Is my hon. Friend aware that only those completely politically prejudiced could have listened to the speech of the Lord President of the Council in Newcastle last weekend with anything other than great appreciation of a fine assessment of the area's basic problems and further employment possibilities?
      Mr. Shinwell: Is not the Parliamentary Secretary aware that Lord Hailsham has not touched the fringe of the unemployment problem in the North-East? What is the North-East to do now that Lord Hailsham is being sent to Moscow by the Prime Minister?
      Mr. Whitelaw: I think the right hon. Gentleman appreciates that it takes time before the impact of measures which are taken has its full effect, and it would be quite absurd to pretend otherwise. I think the right hon. Gentleman knows that the impact of the measures taken by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer is having considerable effect throughout the country, in particular, in the North-East. There are also the other substantial measures which have been taken specifically for the North-East.

    CUBA
    Mr. Emrys Hughesasked the Lord Privy Seal if, in view of the need for improving relations and increasing trade with Cuba, he will consider extending an invitation to President Castro to visit Great Britain.
    The Lord Privy Seal (Mr. Edward Heath): No, Sir.
    Mr. Hughes: Can the right hon. Gentleman assure us that he is not prejudiced against Cuba and President Castro, because they are doing exactly what George Washington did 200 years ago, fighting and struggling for their national independence?
    Mr. Heath: Last year we bought twice as much from the Cubans as they bought from us. I do not think, therefore, the hon. Gentleman can say that there is any prejudice There is, however, plenty of opportunity for Cuba to buy more from us and still balance her trade.

    YEMEN

      United Nations' Observers
      Sir P. Agnewasked the Lord Privy Seal if he will make a statement on the progress made by the United Nations in bringing into operation arrangements for stationing observers round the frontiers of the Kingdom of Yemen to report the arrival from outside of military supplies in men and material, including such as arrive by air; and whether separate account will be kept of such supplies coming into the parts of the Kingdom held by the Government forces and those at present in the occupation of the rebel administration, respectively.
      Mr. Heath: An advance party of the United Nations observers under General Von Horn arrived at Sanaa last Friday. When the remainder of the observers arrive, they will be able to travel anywhere in the Yemen and Saudi Arabia for the purpose of keeping a watch on the activities of both parties involved. Further details about the organisation of the operation are contained in a series of reports by the Secretary-General which are available in the Library of the House.
      Sir P. Agnew: Can my right hon. Friend say specifically whether there will
      26
      be separately categorised supplies arriving, chiefly by air, for the rebel administration as against those arriving over the land frontiers for the Government?
      Mr. Heath: The organisation of their reports is a matter for the observers to decide, but their purpose is, first, to prevent further outside intervention, and, secondly, to note the withdrawal of the U.A.R. forces.
      Mr. P. Noel-Baker: Will the right hon. Gentleman assure us that the Government will give the Secretary-General of the United Nations their fullest support in this very difficult task?
      Mr. Heath: Yes, Sir.

      Diplomatic Representation
      Mr. Biggs-Davisonasked the Lord Privy Seal when Her Majesty's Chargé ďAffaires will return to his post with the Yemen Government, or other diplomatic representation will be provided.
      Mr. Heath: Her Majesty's Minister in the Yemen has now received another posting. We have no plans to replace him.
      Mr. Biggs-Davison: Why not? Since Her Majesty's Government recognise the Government of His Majesty the Imam, who now controls an increasing proportion of the national territory, why are they not providing effective diplomatic representation?
      Mr. Heath: The reason is that the Yemeni Legation in London already provides an adequate channel of communication for us and in the present circumstances we consider it best to use this channel.

      Air Bombardment
      Mr. Biggs-Davisonasked the Lord Privy Seal whether he has now obtained reports from the United Nations about the Egyptian bombardment of civilians and their villages in Yemen, in view of the fact that international conventions have been infringed by such bombardment.
      Mr. Heath: The advance party of the United Nations Observer Team only arrived in the area last Friday and it is too soon to expect any report to have reached the Secretary-General.
      Mr. Biggs-Davison: Do Her Majesty's Government doubt the reliable reports of cruel and inhuman air bombardment by the Egyptians of Yemeni civilian targets? Does not the absence of any protest at the United Nations reveal an alarming decline in international morality?
      Mr. Heath: My hon. Friend asked me what reports we had received from the United Nations, and I have told him that we cannot yet expect to receive any. We have no means of either confirming or denying the other reports which we have received.

      Law and Order
      Sir P. Agnewasked the Lord Privy Seal, what is the most recent information he has received from the United Nations Organisation about the progress made by the Imam of the Yemen in restoring law and order in the kingdom.
      Mr. Heath: None, Sir.
      Sir P. Agnew: Does not my right hon. Friend agree that, although there is contact with the Yemeni Legation in London, if we had a representative of the Foreign Office with the Imam's forces he would be able to get even more accurate information on the point raised in the Question?
      Mr. Heath: That is an entirely different question. The Question concerns reports from the United Nations. As the United Nations recognise the republican régime in the Yemen, it is obviously difficult for us to ask them to give an account of what is happening in the territory held by the Imam. As to our own representation, in present circumstances it would obviously be very difficult to operate representation with the Imam.
      Sir P. Agnew: In view of my right hon. Friend's statement that the United Nations recognise the republican administration of the Yemen, has he made it clear on behalf of Her Majesty's Government that they recognise the Imam's Government as the lawful Government of the Kingdom of Yemen?
      Mr. Heath: That is perfectly clear.

    WORLD FOOD CONGRESS (CHINA)
    Mr. John Hallasked the Lord Privy Seal what representations Her Majesty's Government have made to the United Nations Food and Agriculture Organisation about the exclusion of non-member nations from the World Food Congress, particularly the exclusion of China whose rapidly increasing population is a major factor in assessing the world food problem.
    Mr. Heath: None, Sir. The Director General was authorised by the Food and Agriculture Organisation Council in 1962 to issue invitations to Members of the United Nations and Specialised Agencies, which include the Nationalist Chinese authorities in Formosa but not the People's Republic of China.
    Mr. Hall: Would not my right hon. Friend agree that to some extent the value of the World Food Congress must be diminished if it leaves out of its counsels the country with the largest population in the world, where the population is likely to rise to about 1,000 million in the next 30 or 40 years? Is not that very unwise?
    Mr. Heath: I well appreciate the importance of the point raised by my hon. Friend, and, indeed, I agree with him. As, however, the invitations extend to the existing members of the United Nations, that is why the Republic of China has not been invited.
    Mr. P. Noel-Baker: Are there not many precedents for inviting non-member countries to come to such a conference as this? Would it not be very much in the interests of the Commonwealth, and particularly of Canada, Australia and New Zealand, that China should be represented there?
    Mr. Heath: There are certainly precedents for inviting non-members to such conferences, but the United Nations itself decided that membership should be limited to the existing members of the United Nations and the Specialised Agencies. The right hon. Gentleman knows that our own arrangements are that we express our views on the election of membership to the United Nations concerning the Republic of China but that once that decision is taken, we abide

    29
    by it for other conferences and organisations.
    Mr. Noel-Baker: Would it not be open to the Government, relying on previous precedents, now to propose that China should be invited?
    Mr. Heath: The United Nations having taken this decision, we must abide by it.

    LAOS
    Mr. A. Hendersonasked the Lord Privy Seal whether he will make a statement on the present situation in Laos.
    Mr. Heath: The situation in Laos still gives cause for concern. The Prime Minister of Laos and Prince Souphannouvong, the Pathet Lao leader, have agreed to meet on the Plaine des Jarres to resolve their political differences, but arrangements for the meeting are still causing difficulty. Her Majesty's Ambassador in Vientiane, accompanied by the Soviet Ambassador, flew on 14th June to Prince Souphannouvong's Headquarters at Khang Khay to discuss with him the points at issue.
    The Communist Pathet Lao remain in possession of the territory they occupied following their recent fighting with the neutralists and breaches of the cease-fire continue. A team from the International Control Commission (composed of Indian and Canadian members) is at present in the Plaine des Jarres where the situation is tense, so that its presence may exert a restraining influence over the area.
    Mr. Henderson: In view of the serious deterioration in the situation in Laos, is it not time to consider the reconvening of the Geneva Conference?
    Mr. Heath: Machinery already exists for dealing with the situation without reconvening the Conference. What is important is that the machinery should be made to work. My noble Friend the Foreign Secretary was able to agree with the Soviet Foreign Minister to send a further joint message on 29th May to the Prime Minister of Laos, including a copy of the Report of the International Control Commission, in order to carry the work of the machinery further.
    Mr. Henderson: Are we to understand from the Minister's reply that, in his view, the International Control Com-
    30
    mission will be able to function and carry out its responsibilities under the Armistice Agreement?
    Mr. Heath: I have already stated that at least two parts of the international Control Commission—the Indians and the Canadians—are already on the Plaine des Jarres to use their influence there and prevent further breaches of the ceasefire.

    AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD

      Sugar
      Sir J. Langford-Holtasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food why, in view of the fact that the price of sugar on the world market has doubled in the last six years, he rejected the request at the Annual Price Review made by the National Farmers' Union for an increase in the sugar beet acreage and its price.
      The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Mr. James Scott-Hopkins): The purpose of our arrangements with home farmers and the Commonwealth is to assure a steady supply of sugar in this country, at stable prices regardless of movements in the world price. It is not our policy to raise our acreage quotas or our guaranteed price when the world price is high, nor to reduce them when the world price is low.
      Sir J. Langford-Holt: Can we be assured that the home sugar industry will not suffer any decrease in an increasing sugar market in this country?
      Mr. Scott-Hopkins: Yes, indeed.

    COAL

      Selective Prices, Scotland
      Mr. Gourlayasked the Minister of Power if, in the public interest, he will give a general direction to the National Coal Board to reconsider the policy of selective coal prices in Scotland.
      The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Power (Mr. John Peyton): No, Sir.
      Mr. Gourlay: Is the Minister aware of the extreme dissatisfaction in many

      31
      quarters in Scotland with the high selective coal prices in that area? Will he not reconsider the position and do something worth while for the Scottish economy?
      Mr. Peyton: This is a matter for the commercial judgment of the National Coal Board, who consulted my right hon. Friend before taking this step. He then approved it and he sees no reason to alter his view now.

      RHODESIA AND NYASALAND

        Federation (Dissolution)
        Mr. Wallasked the First Secretary of State if he will make a statement about his discussions with the Prime Minister of Southern Rhodesia.
        Mr. Brockwayasked the First Secretary of State if he will make a statement on the arrangements now made for the conference at Victoria Falls to dissolve the Federation of Rhodesia and Nyasaland.
        The First Secretary of State (Mr. R. A. Butler): I hope to make a statement to the House on these matters after Question Time tomorrow and to publish a White Paper on the exchanges with the Southern Rhodesia Government.
        Mr. Wall: Can my right hon. Friend say whether all five Governments intend to be represented at the conference and whether there is an agreed agenda?
        Mr. Butler: I hope to make a statement on these matters tomorrow. I have agreed to coincide it with the meeting of the Southern Rhodesia Parliament and, therefore, I would not be right to make any further statement today. I hope, however, that I can make a hopeful reply.
        Mr. Brockway: At what time tomorrow will the White Paper be available?
        Mr. Butler: I hope to make it available by 2.30, when the House meets.

      NATIONAL FINANCE

        Inland Revenue Office, Edinburgh
        Mr. Rankinasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer how many persons were employed by and in the Inland Revenue Department, Edinburgh, at 31st December, 1962.
        The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Anthony Barber): If the hon. Member means those employed in the City of Edinburgh, 1,125; 259 of them in the Head Office of the Comptroller of Stamps and Taxes, Edinburgh, and 866 in local offices of the Chief Inspector's Branch, the Collection Service and the Valuation Office.

      HOUSING

        Rented Properties
        Mr. Liptonasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs what is the estimated number of dwellings rented from private landlords for each year since 1957 to date.
        The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Housing and Local Government (Mr. F. V. Corfield): The Donnison report published in 1961 estimated that in 1958 5 million dwellings in England were let by private landlords, that 100,000 were being sold each year for owner-occupation and about 60,000 were being demolished for slum clearance. I have no reason to suppose that the rate has changed materially in the past two years.
        Mr. Lipton: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there has been a very substantial drop indeed in the number of dwellings rented from private landlords, and what are the Government doing to remedy the very serious and growing deficiency?
        Mr. Corfield: As to the second part of the question, I would refer the hon. Gentleman to the White Paper. As to the first part, I would remind him that the decline in the numbers was very much more rapid before the Rent Act.

      COLLIERY, FENTON (EXPLOSION)
      Mr. Ellis Smith (by Private Notice)asked the Minister of Power whether he will make a statement about the colliery explosion which occurred in the Glebe Colliery, Fenton, Stoke-on-Trent.
      The Minister of Power (Mr. Richard Wood): I am having the cause of the accident investigated, and I would like

      33
      to express my deep sympathy to the families and friends of the three men who were killed.
      Mr. Ellis Smith: May I place on record the very generous service which we received from Mr. Brennan, of the Home Office, on Saturday afternoon? Will the Minister undertake to do all he can to expedite the arrangements that are being made for the relatives of the men to come over from Yugoslavia so that they can attend the funeral in the morning? Will he also give an undertaking that his welfare officers will give the best possible attention to the needs of the relatives?
      Mr. Wood: I will certainly look into the points which the hon. Gentleman has mentioned.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

  SUPPLY
  [20TH ALLOTTED DAY]
  Considered in Committee.
  [Sir WILLIAM ANSTRUTHER-GRAY in the Chair]

  CIVIL ESTIMATES, 1963–64
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  That a further sum, not exceeding £70, be granted to Her Majesty, towards defraying the charges for the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1964, for the following services connected with Higher Education, namely:—

  CIVIL ESTIMATES, 1963–64

  £

  Class I, Vote 3, Treasury and Subordinate Departments

  10

  Class VI, Vote 9, Ministry of Education

  10

  Class VI, Vote 10, Scottish Education Department

  10

  Class VII, Vote 1, Universities and Colleges, etc., Great Britain

  10

  Class VII, Vote 4, Department of Scientific and Industrial Research

  10

  Class VII, Vote 5, Medical Research Council

  10

  Class VII, Vote 6, Agricultural Research Council

  10

  Total

  £70

  Whereupon Motion made, and Question, That the Chairman do report Progress and ask leave to sit again—[Mr. Redmayne],—put and agreed to.
  Committee report Progress; to sit again Tomorrow.

  ADJOURNMENT
  Motion made, and Question proposed. That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Redmayne.]

  SECURITY (MR. PROFUMO'S RESIGNATION)
  3.33 p.m.
  Mr. Harold Wilson: This is a debate without precedent in the annals of this House. It arises from disclosures which have shocked the moral conscience of the nation. There is the clear evidence of a sordid underworld network, the

  35
  extent of which cannot yet be measured and which we cannot debate today because of proceedings elsewhere.
  I believe that the feelings that have been aroused throughout the nation axe similarly echoed in this House and that there are many hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite who are as sick at heart by what has been disclosed as those on this side of the House. There is the personal and family tragedy of a man lately our colleague here. However much we condemn him—and we must condemn him—that is not the issue today.
  What concerns us directly is that the former Secretary of State for War, faced with rumours and innuendoes that could not be ignored, chose deliberately to lie to this House, and in circumstances in which this House allows freedom of personal statement without question or debate on the premise that what is said is said in good faith.
  What does concern us, too, is the question whether any other Minister in any sense connived at this action through foreknowledge or, being in a position to ascertain the truth, failed to take the steps that were necessary to fulfil the duty that he owed to the House.
  What concerns us, also, is whether a man in a position of high trust, privy to the most secret information available to a Government, through a continuing association with this squalid network, imperilled our national security or created conditions in which a continuing risk to our security was allowed to remain.
  We are not here as a court of morals, though the nation as a whole cannot escape the responsibility so to act. But questions affecting national security, questions affecting the duty of Ministers to this House, must be pressed and probed today, and this debate, in one form or another, must continue until the truth is known so far as it can ever be known.
  Much has been known to hon. Members and to the Press for many months. Many of us have witnessed the ceaseless interweaving of innuendo and rumour. We on this side of the House knew what was being said. I feel that I must begin by recounting to the House the
  36
  facts about the information which reached us, the conception we held of the duty of an Opposition in such matters, and the action we took. We did not canvass or propagate rumours about personal conduct, but where security questions were raised, and, later, where there was a question of the inaccuracy of statements made in this House, we felt that we had a clear duty, and any other Opposition would have had that same duty.
  Already, in February, the rumours to which I have referred were so pervasive, so widely canvassed in the Press, that there was a danger of a widespread cynicism developing about our public life, about our Government, about this House, none the less damaging for the inability of the Press, through fear of libel action, to publish those facts. Moreover, the legal inhibitions which function here to prevent publication do not operate abroad, and already, months ago, salacious and damaging stories were appearing in overseas publications.
  I say quite frankly to the House that, rightly or wrongly, we did everything in our power to prevent this becoming a matter of public discussion or a matter for party controversy. Many of my hon. Friends will confirm that we did all in our power to dissuade them from tabling Questions or, in some cases, to persuade them, in more than one case pretty roughly, to withdraw Questions which were already on the Order Paper.
  Then, on 21st March, the question was raised in the debate on the Consolidated Fund Bill. This was, of course, followed by the meeting of the Secretary of State for War with five Ministers and then by the Secretary of State's personal statement made in the House that Friday morning with the full and public support of the entire Government, including the Prime Minister.
  The following Monday—and I must recount in full what happened—my hon. Friend the Member for Dudley (Mr. Wigg) was invited by the B.B.C. to appear on "Panorama". In that programme he said, quite flatly, that in his view both Ivanov, the Soviet naval attaché, and Ward were security risks. This statement provoked Ward the next day into telephoning the House and leaving a message for my hon. Friend the Member for Dudley to ring him. My

  37
  hon. Friend arranged for that telephone conversation to be monitored. During the course of the talk, Ward asked my hon. Friend if he could come and meet him at the House. So they met in the evening at the House. The meeting was, in fact, witnessed, and my hon. Friend later prepared a full memorandum of what Ward had said.
  During the course of the talk Ward mentioned that he had once written to me and had a reply. On my files being searched, I found that he had written to me last November, as had hundreds of others, during the time of the Cuba crisis. His letter purported to describe a high-level interview with the Foreign Office aimed, in what I think was the most crucial 24-hour period, at changing Britain's Cuba policy on the basis of an independent initiative by Her Majesty's Government.
  In the letter, Ward said that he knew about this, and he gave very full and circumstantial details about the approach to the Foreign Office and what happened after it arrived. He said that he knew about it.
  "…because I was the intermediary…"
  on behalf of the Soviet Embassy. I do not think that up to that moment anyone suspected that the Ward mentioned by the former Secretary of State as the chief witness, as it were, in his statement, was, in fact, a self-confessed Soviet intermediary.
  I will not trouble the House with the full text of this letter, because the facts of this particular case have come out in the Press during the last few days—the initiative by Ivanov, the activities of Ward, the approach via Lord Astor and then Lord Arran to the Foreign Secretary, and the turn-down of the proposal.
  At the time I received the letter, I did not think it to be of any account. All of us are used at times of crisis to hearing from individuals who claim, or have claimed, to save the peace of the world. I thought that it was one of those letters and it received an appropriate reply. But now, of course, it had to be reread in the light of the former Secretary of State's reference to his friendship with Ward.
  I thought it my duty to bring it immediately to the attention of the Prime Minister, who might not know that this Secretary of State for War was associat-
  38
  ing with a self-confessed Soviet intermediary. I did not mention the letter or the action I took on it either to the Press or even to my colleagues.
  By this time I had received from my hon. Friend the Member for Dudley a note about his very long conversation with Ward. I shall not weary the House with this. It is a nauseating document, taking the lid off a corner of the London underworld of vice, dope, marijuana, blackmail and counter-blackmail, violence, petty crime, together with references to Mr. Profumo and the Soviet attaché. Quite frankly, I felt when I read it that if it were published as a fiction paperback in America hon. Members would have thrown it away, not only for what it contained, but as being overdrawn and beyond belief even as credible fiction.
  As I was myself going to Washington I asked my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Newport (Sir F. Soskice), as a former Attorney-General, to examine the document and, if necessary, question my hon. Friend the Member for Dudley to see if, prima facie, it should be sent to the Prime Minister. When I got back from Washington some days later my right hon. and learned Friend reported that it should certainly be sent to the Prime Minister and it was duly transmitted to the right hon. Gentleman through the respective Chief Whips.
  Again, knowledge of this was kept to the four of us concerned on this side of the House, and not a word reached the Press then or subsequently until the most recent events. I think that the House must realise this: one word from us on this side in this House and we should have released an explosion as great as we have seen in the last fortnight. But we decided that, although the documents in our possession were, in a sense, dynamite, and would have touched off such an explosion, it was our duty, as a responsible Opposition, to hand over all this information to the Prime Minister, who has first responsibility for security, and not to make public use of them.
  The implication of this was, of course, that the Prime Minister would handle his side of the matter with a corresponding sense of responsibility. He replied to me on 17th April. I have wondered whether I should quote these letters, but I think that it is all right because, indeed, some

  39
  have already been printed in the public Press. I do not complain, because this matter is one of public concern, and I know that the Prime Minister does not object to my quoting from them. Not all of them, in any case, were marked confidential.
  The right hon. Gentleman wrote:
  "My Chief Whip has given to me the letter and enclosure from you dated April 9 and dealing with George Wigg's conversation with a Mr. Stephen Ward.
  I will ask the appropriate authorities to have an examination made of this information and will get in touch with you later on if this seems necessary."
  I think that the House will note a somewhat casual approach to a very serious allegation. Above all, there is the reference to "a" Mr. Stephen Ward, as though Ward were an unknown person. After all, five Ministers had spent half the night just before that with the then Secretary of State and Ward had been quoted as the chief witness to them of the respectability of the Secretary of State's proceedings. Yet we have this reference to "a" Mr. Stephen Ward, as though he were an unknown person in whom neither the Government nor the security services could take any possible interest.
  This one word—indeed, the letter as a whole—was symptomatic of the indolent nonchalance of the Prime Minister's attitude to this: the attitude of "what has this to do with me?" That is an attitude which we have seen since, as well. Some weeks later, having heard nothing from him, I tried again, and on 14th May he wrote to me:
  "There seems to be nothing in the papers you sent which requires me to take any action."
  Nine days later, on 23rd May, I received a further letter from Ward, who wrote also to the Home Secretary complaining of police inquiries directed towards his patients and saying that, because of these inquiries, he now felt it no longer necessary to conceal the fact that Mr. Profumo had lied to the House. I immediately sent this letter, also, to the Prime Minister and learnt, at the same time, that Ward had sent a summary of the letter he sent to the Home Secretary to the entire British Press. From this moment it was a matter of common knowledge, though even so, for the reasons I have mentioned, the Press did not publish that summary.
  40
  The following Monday I asked to see the Prime Minister to discuss not this letter from Ward, but the right hon. Gentleman's own letter of 14th May, in which he said that no further action would be taken on the original material. The right hon. Gentleman and I were accompanied at this conversation by the Patronage Secretary and by the Opposition Chief Whip. The right hon. Gentleman maintained the attitude expressed in his letter. Nor did Ward's letter to the Home Secretary seem to make any impression on him in this respect. I say frankly to the House that I was completely dissatisfied with the reply I had from the Prime Minister and with the position and I drew a very sharp contrast with the Prime Minister I had served under, Earl Attlee.
  I told the Prime Minister that John Belcher had been crucified, his career broken, for no other crime than his unwise choice of social contacts, though at no time in the case had there been any suggestion of any risk or breach of security. I told the Prime Minister that on that occasion Lord Attlee sent for the then Lord Chancellor, Lord Jowitt, late at night for a report, calling him in within minutes of the allegations reaching him. In fact, the allegations turned out to be totally false, but on that occasion the whole machinery of the law was put to the task, and I know very well that Mr. Belcher's staff at the Board of Trade—the civil servants with whom he was in contact—were subjected to the most brutal investigation by the police. No one complained about that. But in this case all we got from the Prime Minister was that no action seemed to be called for.
  As a result of this interview, the Prime Minister, on 30th May, wrote a further letter to me in which he said:
  "I have been thinking about our talk on Monday. I am sure in my own mind that the security aspect of the Ward case has been fully and efficiently watched, but I think it important that you should be in no doubt about it."
  The right hon. Gentleman told me of his decision to invite the Lord Chancellor to make an inquiry and require the information necessary from the police and the security authorities, and to report back to him.
  I repeat what he said in his letter:
  "I am sure in my own mind that the security aspect of the Ward case has been

  41
  fully and efficiently watched, but I think it important that you should be in no doubt about it."
  So Lord Dilhorne was set to work right through the Recess in order to satisfy the Leader of the Opposition who, inconveniently, was not so easy to satisfy as the Prime Minister, who was in charge of the nation's security.
  This was the Thursday before the Recess. In the afternoon, I saw the Prime Minister across the Floor of the House in his place for Questions. I pushed across to him a hastily scribbled note saying that in my view he should immediately announce the commission with which he had entrusted the Lord Chancellor, in order to allay public anxiety, which was very great, because he knew that the Press had already received the Ward statement. I received an acknowledgment from the Prime Minister's secretary later that evening—the Prime Minister, of course, was going away.
  In fact, it was only last Monday, ten days later, when the storm had broken, that the Prime Minister, by this time very much on the defensive, did announce that the Lord Chancellor had been asked to make these inquiries. I ask why did he not announce it at the time he wrote to me about it. The Times, last Tuesday, had the answer—because the Prime Minister was gambling on the issue never seeing the light of day.
  This has been the right hon. Gentleman's attitude right through. After the Vassall case he felt that he could not stand another serious security case involving a Ministerial resignation, and he gambled desperately and hoped that nothing would ever come out. For political reasons he was gambling with national security. I think that this is why he was at such pains to demonstrate to me his unflappability and his unconcern.
  Now I will tell the House exactly what our attitude was on the basis of the material that had reached us. Our attitude was not that there was any evidence of a leak of secret information. Let us be clear on this: whether there was a breach of security at any time, whether there was a leak of information, is something we shall never know. There cannot beany assurance on this point and I shall later explain why. There is no means now of finding out.
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  From that point of view, the inquiries of both the security authorities and the Lord Chancellor were bound to be fruitless, because the Prime Minister does not know whether there was any leak at all. He cannot know. What we were concerned with was clear evidence that, leaks or no leaks, there was a standing condition of a security risk as long as the Secretary of State for War was part of this quadrilateral made up of Miss Keeler, Ward, the self-confessed Soviet intermediary, and Ivanov, the Soviet attaché.
  I did not myself think Ward to be a spy. He was too unstable for the Soviet authorities, who usually make use of better material; but he was undoubtedly a tool, an instrument, and his unique access to people in high places made him useful to them. But for a Secretary of State, a member of the Defence Committee of the Cabinet, with full access to all military secrets and to the military secrets of our allies, to be part of this dingy quadrilateral reveals a degree of security risk that no Prime Minister could tolerate for one moment after the facts were conveyed to him. I hope, at any rate, that there will be general agreement on that question throughout the House—that no Prime Minister could tolerate this condition of security risk for one moment after the facts were conveyed to him.
  It was on 27th March that I gave the Prime Minister the information to which I have referred, eleven weeks before my insistence on an inquiry eventually forced the matter into the open—I think that there is common agreement that this matter was forced into the open as a result of the Lord Chancellor sending for the former Secretary of State for War. There were eleven weeks between then and the Prime Minister's receiving even my material—and I would hope that he was receiving material before I handed in any on this question.
  Nor was it the first material that he had had. What I have to ask him is—and I hope that the Prime Minister or his Parliamentary Private Secretary will take full note of the questions being put to him, because we shall want a straight answer to every one of these questions before the debate ends—first, why did he not accept the Secretary of State's resignation when he knew the

  43
  degree of security risk? Was it offered by the Secretary of State and refused by the Prime Minister? If it was not offered, why did the Prime Minister not demand that resignation? We cannot escape the conclusion that the answer to this question is that politics, and not security, came first, and because a born gambler does not operate that way.
  I must now ask the Prime Minister how often he met the Secretary of State to discuss any of these questions during the past two years. Perhaps he will tell us the dates and what transpired. I am sure that he must realise that his was the responsibility in this matter and that this particular responsibility cannot be delegated to other Ministers. He had the responsibility, both as head of the security services and as the Prime Minister who appoints, and, indeed, sacks, Ministers who do not prove satisfactory. But for eleven weeks, to my certain knowledge—and this is clear from the letters I have quoted and it must have been for longer than that—the Prime Minister refused to accept that there was a security risk.
  Does he now accept that there was a security risk during that period? I hope that he will tell us this, because on television on Thursday night Lord Hailsham said to Mr. McKenzie:
  "Well, of course there's a security problem. Don't be so silly. A Secretary of State cannot have a woman shared with a spy—if he was a spy—without giving rise to a security risk. The question is not whether there was a security risk, but whether there was an actual breach of security—be sensible."
  Lord Poole, on Saturday, said:
  "As we now know, there was from the start a security risk—a serious security risk."
  Does the Prime Minister accept that now, because he did not do so the last time I met him?
  This risk had been there for more than two years and no amount of the Press briefing which we have had in the last two or three days, no amount of Cabinet manoeuvring, no committee meetings upstairs, will disguise the fact that there opposite me is the man responsible for this continuing risk.
  We shall be told, we have been told, and we may expect this to be the central theme of the Prime Minister's speech, that, of course, there was a risk, but
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  there was no leak. That is what the Press has been assiduously briefed to say in the last 24 hours. How do we know that there was no leak? We cannot know; we shall never know. Unless the security forces knew about the relationship with this foursome—Ward, Ivanov, the Secretary of State for War and Miss Keeler—unless they tapped every telephone call to any of the four, unless they monitored every conversation between them or any pair of them, no one can know what information was handed over from one person to another. No one can know this. Yet the Prime Minister told me in his letter of 30th May, only a few days ago:
  "I am sure in my own mind that the security aspect of the Ward case has been fully and efficiently watched."
  Were they watched? He has to tell us this. The Prime Minister knows that it is a standing instruction in the security services that no Minister can be followed without the Prime Minister's express permission. Was it given in this case and, if so, will the Prime Minister tell us on what date permission was given to follow the Secretary of State for War? If the House accepts, as Lord Hailsham accepts and as Lord Poole accepts, that there was a continuing security risk as long as these two were meeting, the Prime Minister's statement that they were being efficiently watched cannot apply unless he gave his assent to the Secretary of State being watched.
  When we say that there was a security risk we mean that through a personal defect of character, or a perverted political or other loyalty, or through the possibility of intolerable pressure, or through cupidity or financial need, or through a personal or family relationship, an individual is more liable than his fellows to disclose information. That is what we mean by a security risk. To diagnose such cases is the whole basis of security work. Civil servants, War Office clerks, engineers in Admiralty establishments, or workers in Ministry of Aviation contractors' works, are frequently moved on the initiative of the security authorities if any security risk condition such as I have defined is found.
  Only two days ago we read that an Oxford undergraduate was barred from the University O.T.C. on a security initiative because his mother was born in Moscow. [Laughter.] This is quite

  45
  serious. This is the job of the security authorities where they find a risk of this kind; it is their job to go to the employer or the commanding officer of the individual concerned and to see that the individual is moved out of harm's way as far as secret information is concerned.
  The Prime Minister, indeed the whole Cabinet—because they are all in this now, including the Minister of Health—need to have their attention drawn to Command 9715, the Statement on the Findings of the Conference of Privy Councillors on Security, as it were the official text, the bible, of security work. In paragraph 10, the White Paper says:
  "The Conference recognise that today great importance must be paid to character defects, as factors tending to make a man unreliable or expose him to blackmail, or influence by foreign agents. There is a duty on Departments to inform themselves of serious failings such as drunkenness, addiction to drugs, homosexuality or any loose living that may seriously affect a man's reliability."
  In paragraph 12, the Conference said:
  "While confining themselves to the security aspect of these defects of character and conduct the Conference also record the view that in individual cases or in certain sections of the public service, a serious character defect may appropriately be the determining factor in a decision to dismiss a particular individual or to transfer him to other work."
  Does this rule apply only to clerks, to civil servants, to workers in Government laboratories, or is there some reason why Secretaries of State are exempt from this condition? Does the Prime Minister accept the same responsibility as the head of any other Department to
  "dismiss…or transfer…to other work"
  anyone who is found to have a security defect?
  In a case like this, it is only too clear to the House that there are at least two obvious ways in which a security risk can become more of a risk and be translated into a reality. The first, of course, is if Ivanov, directly or through Ward, had asked the girl to put security questions to the Secretary of State for War. This has been alleged by her. It has been alleged that Ivanov, through Ward, asked her to put questions to the Secretary of State for War. She said that she never put them. However this maybe, the possibility was there.
  Have not the security authorities made full inquiries? How often have the
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  security authorities—and starting when—made inquiries of Miss Keeler as to the pressures put on her to obtain secret information from Profumo? We shall never really know the truth about this. For one thing, she has been terrified by suggestions that she will be prosecuted under the Official Secrets Act, and this makes even her somewhat unreliable attitude to the truth perhaps even less dependable than it might have been. Here is the first point: that there was clearly the possibility—I am putting it no higher than this—that this relationship could have been used by Ivanov for getting secret information.
  Secondly, there was the open exposure to blackmail. Blackmail has been used before in espionage cases. It was used in the case of Vassall, as the House will recall. Here the possibilities were infinite, because the disclosure of a photograph or a sound recording would have meant total ruin for the victim. I am not saying that this blackmail happened. We do not know. The White Paper on Security, which I have just quoted, is merely concerned with the risk that these things can happen; and one man was given the responsibility by the House for seeing that these risks were not allowed to continue, and that man was the Prime Minister. The security services, the Radcliff Report told us, are always very sensitive to the possibility of blackmail.
  There is another question which I want to put to the Prime Minister here. Even if there were no leak—and it is clear, I think, that none of us can ever know whether there was, although the Government are clinging desperately to the argument that they do not think that there was—one issue is, as I have said, this long continuing security risk from another point of view: because Soviet espionage in this country is not directed only to the transmission of secrets. Perhaps of even greater importance to them is the effort which they make to sow in the United States deep doubts about the efficiency of the British security services.
  I wonder whether any hon. Member for one moment can doubt that in the episode which we are debating today the Soviet espionage authorities have been handed a triumphant success, not least by the failure of the Prime Minister to take action when the facts were made available to him. This is a question

  47
  which the Prime Minister must answer: does he or does he not think that there was a continuing security risk, and what effect does he think that this has had on our relations with our allies?
  I come to one further quite direct question to the Prime Minister and to the House—because I think that all the House, and certainly hon. Members opposite, equally with us, will demand a full answer from the Prime Minister. I want to put it to him that we must have a full disclosure in the debate today of what is going on. We want to know whether there are any more revelations to come. Have we had all that the Government now know? Or is there more still being held back in the hope, the desperate gamble, that it will not come out in some other way? Is this the whole story that we have now, or is it only that part of the iceberg which is visible above the surface of the water?
  I say directly to the Prime Minister that if he purports today to give the House a full statement of everything that is known to him, and if, during the course of the next week or two, or the next month or two, there are more revelations, the House will hold him guilty, too, of misleading the House about the true facts in this situation.
  On Saturday, the Prime Minister courteously sent me a copy of the Lord Chancellor's report to him. May I say that in one sense it put me in something of a difficulty. Clearly, I cannot quote it, because it is not being laid on the Table of the House. I feel, equally, that I cannot use any of the facts contained in it, but, equally, I am sure that the Prime Minister will agree that I cannot be muzzled or gagged by the fact that I have seen it. It contains much information which was already public knowledge, or, at any rate, was fairly widely known, and I feel it right, therefore, to put to the Prime Minister today those questions which can be put on the basis of knowledge otherwise available to me. Indeed, I may say that these questions had already been pretty fully worked out in my mind before I saw the Lord Chancellor's report.
  This means that I have already put to the Prime Minister, and will be putting to him, some questions to which I now know the answer on the basis of
  48
  the Lord Chancellor's report. I will not give the answers. I will leave it to the Prime Minister to give the answers, because it is right that he should decide how much of the Lord Chancellor's report can be disclosed.
  First, as to Ivanov. His activities, we are told by the Prime Minister, were fully and efficiently watched. His contacts were wide. He took full advantage of this sector of London society. Why, then, was he not declared persona non grata by the Government?
  Secondly, I want to ask the Prime Minister on what date was a full security watch placed on Ward's flat? The Prime Minister told us that Ward's side of this was fully and efficiently watched. He said that in a letter to me. Thus, he will not mind telling us on what date the watch on Ward's fiat began and on what date, if any, it ended. If it were fully and efficiently watched, there must have been a watch. Will he tell us the date on which it began? He knows that I know the answer to that question.
  Thirdly, when did the Prime Minister himself—I think that this is central to the whole issue—first hear these rumours about the Secretary of State and the girl? On what date? I hope that he will tell us this, because it is fundamental. The House must be told the precise date.
  Fourthly, who told the right hon. Gentleman? The information which I have had is that it was not, in fact, the security services, that it was a top executive of a newspaper group who had just bought one of the sets of the Keeler memoirs and who came to Admiralty House specifically on the security issue and informed the Prime Minister's staff of Miss Keeler's association with Mr. Profumo; and, of course, with Edgecombe and with Gordon and with Ivanov. Will the right hon. Gentleman confirm this and will he give the date?
  Next, will the right hon. Gentleman tell us this? On receipt of this information, what did he do? Did he send for the Secretary of State for War and confront him with it? What checks did he make on receiving this information? Any hon. Member opposite, in whatever capacity—in business; in the Army—on receiving information of a comparable character to this would have immediately sent for his junior and confronted

  49
  him with the charge. Did the Prime Minister do this?
  Fifthly, did the right hon. Gentleman instruct the security services to check the accuracy of the statement by reference to Miss Keeler herself? When did the real security checks on Miss Keeler begin and how thorough were they? I think that the right hon. Gentleman will realise the importance of these questions and the need to give a straight answer to them, If, in fact, the security services knew all about the Keeler relationship in 1961, it was their duty to tell the Prime Minister then, not only because he is their chief, because he is the only Minister responsible for security, but because he alone had the power to act.
  The right hon. Gentleman alone had the power to sack the Secretary of State for War. If they knew in 1961, when the danger was greatest, and if they did not tell the Prime Minister, there is a clear case for a ruthless inquiry into those responsible. I think that some heads would roll in the security services if this turned out to be the truth.
  If they did tell the Prime Minister, then his failure over two years to sack the Secretary of State, to end the situation, would represent an inconceivable lack of responsibility on his part. But this is not all. If they did know and if they did tell him, it would mean that he connived, that he was an accessory before the fact to the gross contempt of the House involved in the personal statement on 22nd March last, when the Prime Minister so clearly identified himself with the statement of the Secretary of State for War.
  Frankly, I find it quite impossible to believe that the right hon. Gentleman could be guilty of that. I do not believe for one minute that that was the situation. So if it is true, if I am right, then either the security services knew and deliberately withheld that information from him, in which case heads have to roll, or they did not know. If they did not know—it is a fair question to ask why they did not know, whether they should not have been on to it—something follows from that. It follows that they could not have been monitoring, they could not have been watching, the effects of the Profumo-Keeler relationship.
  The Prime Minister doubts this: the whole matter has been fully covered. He
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  cannot have it both ways, because either the Keeler-Profumo relationship was known and the security services were following it and there was no security risk, in which case the Prime Minister is very guilty for not having taken action over that period, or the security services knew nothing about it, in which case they could not have followed it and, therefore, the Prime Minister has no warrant whatsoever for saying that there was no breach of security, because he simply does not know.
  Whether the security services are blameworthy or not—the House will take a lot of satisfying on this point—they simply were not in a position to detect any possible breach of security. Therefore, I say to the Prime Minister—I think that the whole House must say to him—that, if the security services did not know, two years ago, about this relationship, then his letter to me of 30th May was totally misleading when he said:
  "I am sure in my own mind that the security aspect of the Ward case has been fully and efficiently watched."
  So, on that assumption, all the complacent statements which have been fed out to the Press in the past 48 hours, that there were no security leaks, are completely dishonest. The Government have no means of knowing whether there were security leaks or not. Therefore, the Prime Minister must answer these questions about the date frankly and clearly. We shall not easily allow him out of the Chamber until he does.
  I will hazard my own view of the answer. The only one that I think fits the facts, except on a basis which would convict the Prime Minister and his colleagues both of scandalous unconcern for security and of being a party to misleading the House, is this. I believe that the first the security services knew or even guessed about this very big security risk was when a Sunday newspaper told them a few months ago. If this is true—the Prime Minister must be frank about this—this would imply that the £60 million spent on these services under the right hon. Gentleman's Premiership have been less productive in this vitally important case than the security services of the News of the World. He must tell us this.
  It would mean, too, as I have said, that no one has any idea of the possible

  51
  security breaches, because on my information the first intimation of the Profumo-Keeler relationship did not reach the Prime Minister or the security services until after Ivanov had left the country this year. So how can he say that he knows what went on?
  It would mean something else. If my suggestion is correct about the Sunday newspapers, something else is involved. On the information that I have, this first allegation about the Profumo-Keeler relationship and the Profumo-Keeler-Ward triangle was made to the Government four and a half months ago. The Prime Minister is to give us the date in a minute. It was, therefore, two months before the Secretary of State's personal statement. There was plenty of time to check up with Miss Keeler. There was plenty of time to check up with the Ward set-up and with the other witnesses, who seem only too ready now to talk, especially if there is money involved.
  So, though I personally acquit the right hon. Gentleman of foreknowledge or complicity in this matter—of course I do; of course we all do; I mean complicity in the misleading of the House—he cannot be acquitted of a grave dereliction of duty in failing to find out. The House was grossly misled and abused, not by his complicity, but by his inadequacy.
  I come now to the meeting of the five Ministers late at night, till five o'clock in the morning, with the former Secretary of State for War. Did they have this M.I.5 material before them, the material which M.I.5 presumably had been investigating for two months from the day it first received it from the Sunday newspaper? Was the head of M.I.5 invited to this confrontation with the Secretary of State for War? If not, why not? We have been given by Lord Poole, who seems to know all about these things, an account of who was at this meeting—the Ministers, the Law Officers, the Leader of the House, the Chief Whip, and, for some reason I cannot understand, the Minister without Portfolio, the head of the Government's information services. What in heaven's name was he doing there?
  The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Mr. Iain Macleod):I should be very grateful if, just on this point about
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  the Minister without Portfolio, I could make this clear. My right hon. Friend the Minister without Portfolio was there because he was in the House for the debate which the right hon. Gentleman will remember, and which had just concluded, on the two journalists. He was the only other Cabinet Minister in the House. It was nothing whatever to do with his other responsibilities. He was the only Cabinet Minister in the House, and he was in the House at the service of the House for that debate.
  Mr. George Wigg: Before my right hon. Friend passes from that point, may I say that that statement is not true? The Home Secretary was present in the House and I put my question to the Home Secretary. Why was not the Home Secretary at the meeting?
  Mr. Macleod: If the hon. Gentleman will study HANSARD a little more carefully, he will find that some hours before the House rose the debate with which the Home Secretary was concerned had concluded, and the Home Secretary had, in fact, left the House.
  Mr. H. Wilson: As I myself was present, I cannot confirm the right hon. Gentleman's recollection. He had better check the times again, because the Home Secretary and I were crossing swords with one another at about 1.30 that morning and the right hon. Gentleman knows that Profumo had been sent for before that. In any case, the right hon. Gentleman knows, does he not, that the Home Secretary, at that time, was in possession of vital information from police inquiries about Miss Keeler in which the Secretary of State for War's name had been mentioned? If he had gone home, why was he not brought back for so important a meeting? After all, the result of the meeting, which lasted for several hours, was a statement which misled the House.
  For some reason—I should like to know why—Mr. Profumo's solicitor was present. This is most extraordinary. I have never heard, and I am sure that the Patronage Secretary has not, of an hon. Member seeing his Chief Whip and asking for his solicitor to be present. This is a very serious point, because I should like to know on whose initiative the solicitor was brought along. After all, if the Secretary of State for War said, "I am not going to see the Chief Whip without having my

  53
  solicitor present", this is the sort of thing which any petty crook says when he is arrested. It ought to have aroused the suspicions of the Leader of the House.
  Or did the Leader of the House say, "We have a very grave charge to put to you. You had better send for your solicitor"? I hope that we shall get a clear answer about that from the Prime Minister. If there was time to get his solicitor out of bed and bring him here, why was not there time to bring both the Home Secretary, if he had gone home, and the head of the security services? We, and, I am sure, hon. Gentlemen opposite, too, will take a lot of satisfying about this meeting that took place late at night.
  There is one other matter of great importance to the House. I said that the deception of the House was a grave contempt of Parliament. It is important that this should be recorded in a formal decision of the House, otherwise there is a danger, through default, of eroding the principle that any calculated deception is an abuse and a contempt. I gather that there may be difficulty about tabling a Motion on the Order Paper before we leave today, but the Government must announce that they intend to table a Motion so that it can be debated, and we must ask them to put the matter right at once. If they fail, I give notice that we shall ourselves table a Motion and demand that time be given for adequate debate.
  I have dealt today with the problem of the security risk and the clear failure of the Prime Minister to fulfil his duty to this House and to the nation. I have given the Prime Minister some direct questions to which the House will insist we must have answers.
  For reasons which I have given, I have not dealt with the moral challenge with which the nation is faced. The uncovering of this sleazy sector of society in London and elsewhere is a matter to be pursued elsewhere. But the papers day by day add to the odious record. Saturday's papers told of an opportunist night club proprietor who had offered Miss Christine Keeler—or should I refer to her as Miss Christine Keeler Ltd.—a night club job at a salary of £5,000 a week, and I say to the Prime Minister that there is something utterly nauseating about a system of society which pays a harlot 25 times as much as it pays its
  54
  Prime Minister, 250 times as much as it pays its Members of Parliament, and 500 times as much as it pays some of its ministers of religion.
  But they are wrong at home and abroad who see this as a canker at the heart of our society. I believe that the heart of this nation is sound. What we are seeing is a diseased excrescence, a corrupted and poisoned appendix of a small and unrepresentative section of society that makes no contribution to what Britain is, still less to what Britain can be. There are, of course, lessons to be drawn for us all in terms of social policy, but perhaps most of all in terms of the social philosophy and values and objectives of our society—the replacement of materialism and the worship of the golden calf by values which exalt the spirit of service and the spirit of national dedication.
  I once heard the Archbishop of York say that we were in danger of creating a system of society where the verb "to have" means so much more than the verb "to be", and now we are seeing the pay-off for that system of society. But our friends abroad are wrong if they draw the hasty conclusion that this country is entering the era of corruption which has heralded the decline of the great civilisations of the past. The sickness of an unrepresentative sector of our society should not detract from the robust ability of our people as a whole to face the challenge of the future. And in preparing to face that challenge, let us frankly recognise that the inspiration and the leadership must comefirst here in this House.
  4.25 p.m.
  The Prime Minister (Mr. Harold Macmillan): As the right hon. Member for Huyton (Mr. H. Wilson) observed, this debate takes place in conditions which are wholly unprecedented. A great shock has been given to Parliament, and, indeed, to the whole country. On me, as head of the Administration, what has happened has inflicted a deep, bitter, and lasting wound. I do not remember in the whole of my life, or even in the political history of the past, a case of a Minister of the Crown who has told a deliberate lie to his wife, to his legal advisers and to his Ministerial colleagues, not once but over and over again, who has then

  55
  repeated this lie to the House of Commons as a personal statement which, as the right hon. Gentleman reminded us, implies that it is privileged, and has subsequently taken legal action and recovered damages on the basis of a falsehood. This is almost unbelievable, but it is true.
  Before I went away for my short holiday on 30th May, I felt pretty sure that this incident, as I knew it then, raised no serious security issues, and I shall explain why. Nevertheless, I had arranged for the Lord Chancellor to make an inquiry in circumstances about which the right hon. Gentleman has said something and about which I shall have more to say later. It was also my conviction that Mr. Profumo had not deceived me, his colleagues, or the House, but spoke the truth, and I was fortified in this belief by the successful action that he had taken.
  On the fifth day of my holiday I was informed of the truth. Since we cannot now, I fear, put much confidence in anything that he has said, the problem of security is now enhanced, but, in addition, moral issues of the deepest kind are involved. For what greater moral crime can there be than to deceive those naturally inclined to trust one, those who have worked with one, served with one, and are one's colleagues?
  The right hon. Gentleman has put a number of questions to me, and I can assure him and the House that they will be answered in the course of my speech, but I trust that hon. Members will allow me to deal with these points as they occur in the narrative which it is only right that I should give to the House. This is more convenient, though long I fear, and it is the proper way to deal with it. This means covering both the action I took before Mr. Profumo's statement and the action which I took to deal with any matters after it, but before his confession. However, there are certain aspects of this case to which I would first like to refer, as they affect myself.
  In a period of Ministerial office which runs altogether to 17 years, and more especially during the last six years as Prime Minister, I have had to face, like all Ministers, grave and baffling difficul-
  56
  ties. Sometimes, the House probably realises, looking back on their character, that they involved great strain and pressure, but these burdens were all bearable because, whatever the different point of view between both sides of the House, whatever the degree of political argument and conflict, whatever the international dangers involved, these have been questions of policy. This is different. I find it difficult to tell the House what a blow it has been to me, for it seems to have undermined one of the very foundations upon which political life must be conducted.
  However, in recent days I have been trying to search my heart and conscience, and I have approached the matter in this way: there is the question of good faith; there is the question of justice, and there is the question of good judgment. I know that I have acted honourably; I believe that I have acted justly, and I hope that when it has heard my account the House will consider that I have acted with proper diligence and prudence.
  Until my return from an official visit to Rome at the beginning of February, 1963, I had never heard of Mr. Ward. I only say this because I observe that it has been stated that I sat for a portrait for him. There is no reason why I should not have, but, in fact, I did not. I made inquiries, and found that he had done a sketch of me from the Strangers' Gallery, of course without my knowledge, and had written to my private office for permission to exhibit it, which was granted.
  When I returned from Rome, I was informed by my Principal Private Secretary that a general manager of a national newspaper had come to Admiralty House on Friday, 1st February, 1963, and had thought it his duty to report in confidence that certain rumours were going about linking the name of a Miss Keeler with the Secretary of State for War and Captain Ivanov, a former member of the Russian Embassy in London.
  My Principal Private Secretary at once transmitted this information to the deputy head of the security service with a view to my receiving a full report immediately on my return. My Principal Private Secretary also went to see the Secretary of State for War—I was away—the same afternoon, and told him of the story he

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  had heard, and said that it was imperative that Mr. Profumo should come to see either me or my right hon. Friend the Chief Whip. I should tell the House that as soon as my Principal Private Secretary told Mr. Profumo of the rumours that were circulating he denied them in every important particular, in the same terms in which he subsequently made a statement in the House. That is to say, he admitted that he knew Miss Keeler, but emphatically denied that it was anything more than an innocent social friendship. He said that he had only met her, following their first meeting, at Lord Astor's house at Cliveden, at the house of a Mr. Stephen Ward.
  Mr. Profumo said that he had broken off their acquaintanceship after a short time—right back, two years before—as a result of a warning that he had from Sir Norman Brook, then Secretary of the Cabinet, that Mr. Ward might possibly be a security risk by virtue of his friendship with Ivanov. The House will wish to know, and ought to know, exactly what this warning was, and why it was conveyed by Sir Norman Brook, as he then was, to the Secretary of State.
  The security service had obtained information in 1961 that Ivanov was acquainted with Ward. As the House knows, in this period of cold war between East and West the circles in which certain diplomats—particularly members of the RussianElmbassy—move are always, and must be, a matter of general interest to our security service. It was in pursuit of its duty that the security service obtained information of this acquaintanceship, namely, that between Ivanov and Ward.
  Of course, there is nothing wrong in British people meeting members of the Russian Embassy. On the contrary, in the long term there may even be some marginal effect for good upon the policies of the Soviet Government, and it would certainly be unfortunate if the only contact with diplomats from behind what we call the Iron Curtain countries was with dedicated Communists.
  As it happens, Ivanov was first introduced to Mr. Ward by the editor of the Daily Telegraph, not privately but at a luncheon party at the Garrick Club. There was nothing abnormal or reprehensible in this introduction. It was a normal journalistic occasion, held in con-
  58
  sequence of Ivanov's visit with a party of other foreign naval attachés to the Daily Telegraph office. Mr. Ward was included in the party because he was anxious to visit Moscow and to draw Soviet personalities from life. I mention it only because I feel that after all the rumours the House had better be told all the facts that I know.
  This introduction took place in January, 1961,and was a normal contact of the ordinary kind. It was only when this was followed up by a somewhat closer acquaintance that the Security Service thought it advisable to see and to warn Mr. Ward. It did this on 8th June, 1961. Without attempting in any way to put any bar on his association with a member of the Russian Embassy it nevertheless thought it right to warn him of the need for caution in circumstances of this sort. Later, Mr. Ward spoke of Ivanov in such a way as to imply that he, Ward, could be helpful to British interests in his dealings with this official. He also mentioned casually that he happened to know the Secretary of State for War. This was on 12th July, 1961.
  In view of this statement by Mr. Ward that he knew Mr. Profumo the head of the security service thought it right to tell Sir Norman Brook that it would be advisable that Mr. Profumo should be warned about this connection. The warning was of a possible security risk. The risk was that if Mr. Profumo did know Mr. Ward he knew a man whom they knew was friendly with a member of the Russian Embassy. There might be nothing in this. It was, in any case, a risk at one remove, but, still, it was a risk, however remote.
  I will now tell the House what happened after that. Sir Norman Brook called to see Mr. Profumo on 9th August, 1961, and gave him this information and this warning. Mr. Profumo was warned then about the possibility of danger by virtue of his friendship with a man who was thought to be rather friendly with Ivanov. Neither the security service nor Sir Norman Brook had ever heard of Miss Keeler, or about the things that have now been revealed, or—I must be careful; they are sub judice—which seem to have been revealed in the Ward

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  household. They knew nothing whatever about them.
  The only point was that here was a man, first introduced by the editor of the Daily Telegraph of whom he had made a friend, and he was warned, as a Minister, that this was the kind of man that he should be careful about, and ought not to see, or to see as little as possible. Neither Sir Norman Brook nor the security services knew of any other circumstances except exactly what I have said.
  Mr. Profumo told us later that as a result of this warning he immediately discontinued his friendship with Mr. Ward and paid no more visits to his house. I must at this point draw the attention of the House to a difficulty about dates in this period. In his personal statement Mr. Profumo said that he last saw Miss Keeler in December, 1961, and had not seen her since. I have told the House that Sir Norman Brook warned Mr. Profumo on 9th August, 1961—warned him not about Miss Keeler, of whom he knew nothing, but of Mr. Ward. Nevertheless, as we know, the two associations were linked. But that was not then known.
  Mr. Profumo subsequently said that he was mistaken in saying that he last saw Miss Keeler in December, 1961. He said that he remembered that he had received the warning from Sir Norman Brook about Mr. Ward at the beginning of a Parliamentary Recess—he thought that it was the Christmas Recess—and he knew that he had written to Miss Keeler on the same day that he was warned about Mr. Ward. There is no doubt at all—for this is all recorded in the proper minutes—that the warning was given on 9th August, 1961. This, as we now know, was the date of the letter breaking an arrangement to meet Miss Keeler—9th August, 1961.
  I must tell the House that Sir Norman Brook did not inform me either of the fact that he had received this information from the head of the security service, or that he had thought it his duty to speak a warning word about Mr. Ward's friendship with Ivanov. He did not tell me. I have since consulted him and he is perfectly sure, in the minute he is perfectly certain, that his recollection is that he did not tell me.
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  I do not complain of it. I merely state the fact that the minute that Sir Norman recorded makes no reference to his having informed me. He himself is in no doubt that he did not think it necessary to make any reference to me. I mention this at some length because one of the allegations which I have seen freely stated in the Press and elsewhere is that I knew of Mr. Profumo's association with Mr. Ward as long ago as August 1961, and I did nothing about it. This is the first charge of dilatoriness of duty that has been brought against me and it is completely untrue.
  I must emphasise that while there was some undesirability, or even, if hon. members like, a security risk, there is no evidence whatever of any breach of security. None of the authorities concerned knew at the date of the warning of Mr. Profumo's acquaintance with Miss Keeler. Indeed, as I shall tell the House, none of them knew of it until the end of January, 1963. There is of course, unfortunately, under modern conditions, where so much is known of the ways in which private weaknesses can be played upon, a wide range of behaviour which is properly a matter of security. The right hon. Gentleman has referred to it. But if the private lives of Ministers and of senior officials are to be the subject of continual supervision day and night, then all I can say is that we shall have a society very different from this one and, I venture to suggest, more open to abuse and tyranny than would justify any possible gain to security in the ordinary sense.
  Moreover, the security services have not the resources to watch the houses of all citizens who number Russians among their acquaintances, and even though supervision of this kind were to be confined to those who are known to have personal acquaintanceships with members of the Russian and other Eastern European embassies in London the task would still be quite beyond the resources of the security services. In fact, it would be necessary to recruit an enormous army of invigilators, and that, I am persuaded, is not right, or the answer.
  I have gone into this at some length because the matter was raised by the right hon. Gentleman, and I have seen it suggested in the Press that the security authorities were keeping a perpetual

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  watch on Mr. Ward's house; that they saw Mr. Profumo enter and leave the house; that they saw Ivanov enter and leave the house and that these events were reported to me at the time. None of this is true. They did not keep this watch and they did not report to me during any of this period any of these things.
  Now I ought to return to the main narrative. I told the House of the first information received in my office in February of this year of events which had occurred in the summer of 1961. If I may remind the House, my principal Private Secretary saw Mr. Profumo in February. He denied any impropriety, and my Principal Private Secretary told him that he must report either to me or to my right hon. Friend the Chief Whip on the full facts. In the event, Mr. Profumo, who had talked to the head of the security service, and both the Law Officers of the Crown, saw my right hon. Friend the Chief Whip. He was questioned closely. To all of them he confidently and emphatically denied the rumours in all and every important particular and protested that there had been no impropriety in his association with Miss Keeler.
  I must tell the House—this answers another question—that while maintaining his innocence, Mr. Profumo asked the Chief Whip whether he ought to resign, in view of the rumours about him. The Chief Whip, rightly, replied that if the rumours had any foundation, of course he must resign. But, if not, there was no reason to do so. It may be asked why I did not question Mr. Profumo myself. I think that that is an extremely fair question and I will tell the House why. I did not do so for two reasons. First, I thought he would have spoken more freely to the Chief Whip and the Law Officers than to me, his political chief. Secondly, for me personally to carry out an examination of this kind, in the probing detail necessary, would have made it difficult, if not impossible, for him to feel in future, however innocent he might have been, that he enjoyed my confidence.
  The situation which then confronted me was that damaging and scurrilous rumours were circulating about a member of the Government which he solemnly and consistently, and on more than one occasion, denied. I could have
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  asked for his resignation, and now I come to the second point at issue. In thinking about it, I thought that it would have been unjust. There had been no public attack upon him. There was not known then in public any ground for lack of confidence in his integrity and his earnest assurance. I must confess frankly to the House that in considering what I should do the Vassall case, and the effect which it had upon my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Hillhead (Mr. Galbraith), the present Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport, was certainly in my mind. I have been reproached for accepting the resignation of my hon. Friend, when I did, when rather similar rumours were circulating and when nothing was specifically stated but only hinted at. Indeed, I told him at the time that I believed that in the long run his resignation might help him, but would not help me.
  In that case, and again in the circumstances presented to me at this stage, I was anxious to avoid any injustice. I would ask hon. Members: supposing I had required Mr. Profumo's resignation and thereafter he had issued writs for libel—which, in fact, he did do—and had been successful—which, in fact, he was—that would have created the feeling that an innocent man had been unjustly treated by me. Quite apart from any personal considerations, the belief that any individuals innocent of any offence or misdemeanour could be victimised and their careers ended merely on the basis of rumour, which is subsequently shown by the judgment of the courts to be without foundation, would have a profoundly damaging effect upon the whole of political life.
  There is, of course, always the temptation—the right hon. Gentleman has accused me—of dilatoriness and of wanting to save trouble. Of course, one way to save trouble would have been to demand Mr. Profumo's resignation. But I think that to have done so would have been an act of injustice. Ministers in the Vassall case—the right hon. Gentleman talked of the Vassall "scandal", but there was no scandal affecting Ministers except in the rumours, which were terrible—were made the subject of rumours, accusations and innuendoes which were, in fact, shown to be absolutely untrue, and

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  I think that it would have been quite unjust if, having seen recently what harm rumour could do, I had, merely for my own comfort, insisted on a resignation at this stage.
  Of course, it was most desirable that these rumours—which were brought to me in great detail by my right hon. Friend the Chief Whip, but which had not been published in the national Press or in any similar organ—should be dealt with. It would be specially desirable that rumours involving a Minister should be dealt with in the House of Commons, from which Governments of whatever character, individually and collectively, draw their support.
  Hon. Members with long experience of the House will realise the difficulty of anything in the nature of a personal statement denying rumours which are merely circulating in private circles by word of mouth. Some, though not all, hon. Members may have seen a broadsheet called Westminster Confidential, published by Parliamentary Profile Service Ltd., of which the director is a certain Mr. Roth. The issue of this broadsheet which appeared on 8th March contained some allegations about Mr. Profumo and this was brought to my attention. I consulted my right hon. and learned Friend the Attorney-General. His view was that the limited circulation and the general character of this publication did not afford adequate grounds for the issue of a writ for libel by a Minister and that this was not the occasion for which we were looking. We wanted an occasion, Mr. Profumo having said this over and over again to us, to protest and prove his innocence.
  On 15th March a national newspaper printed an article on its front page about his resignation. Again, I consulted the Attorney-General and accepted his advice that there was nothing in this article which was libellous. But in the debate on the Consolidated Fund Bill, on 21st March, the hon. Member for Dudley (Mr. Wigg), the hon. Lady the Member for Blackburn (Mrs. Castle) and the hon. Member for Coventry, East (Mr. Crossman) all gave public expression in the House to at least some of the rumours which were circulating.
  Here then, at last, was an opportunity to nail the rumours, and nail them at
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  once without the inevitable delay following the issue of a writ of libel. These allegations were made, I think, at a lateish hour, when I had gone home, and, I think, gone to bed. I was told of them over the telephone and readily agreed with a suggestion that Mr. Profumo should now prepare a personal statement. It had to be done that night because next day was Friday and it had to be made as soon as possible, and, therefore, at eleven o'clock in the morning instead of 3.30 p.m. as is usual.
  Accordingly, Mr. Profumo arranged for his solicitor to go to the House of Commons in order to make quite certain, as he was to make the statement, that it should be correct in every particular—[Laughter.]—as we then believed, as I think we all believed. That was the real belief. There were present my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House, the Minister without Portfolio, the Chief Whip, the Attorney-General and the Solicitor-General, Mr. Profumo and his solicitor—a man, by the way of great experience and, I understand, a member of a firm of high repute.
  Much has been made in the Press about this meeting and hon. Members may ask why other Ministers should be concerned in a personal statement by one of their colleagues. The answer is because the Secretary of State was one of our colleagues and accusations had been made against him as a Minister as well as a man. It was essential that they should satisfy themselves that the statement should be unequivocal and should leave no room for criticism that any of the allegations had been smoothed over, or evaded. This they did. They were satisfied with his account, which was the same that he had given on all previous occasions.
  There have been Press reports that at this meeting all those present had a copy of the letter which Mr. Profumo sent to Miss Keeler and which has since been published. That is not true. All those present knew of the existence of the letter, but they could not read it because it was in the possession of the recipient or of a newspaper if she had by then given it to them. Certainly, Mr. Profumo had not got it, or a copy.
  The knowledge that his letter might be published at any moment—that is the important point—made my colleagues

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  feel confident that Mr. Profumo could hardly dare to give a misleading account of the contents of this letter. Here, I should tell the House that the Ministers did not know the contents. They were aware, and I was made aware that the letter began with the word "Darling". This was volunteered by Mr. Profumo, who explained that in circles in which he and his wife moved it was a term of no great significance. [Laughter.] I believe that that might be accepted—I do not live among young people much myself.
  My right hon. Friends were satisfied, in the face of repeated assurances of a man who, after all, was one of their colleagues, and fortified by the certainty that any falsity in his public account must, in the long run, be exposed—as, indeed, it has been—and awaited with confidence the statement which would be made in the morning. All this was reported to me. I had a copy of the statement at 9.30 the following morning. Looking at it—and I knew that it had been examined by a number of senior colleagues and two skilful lawyers—I had in mind that it was a personal statement made in accordance with the conventions of this House which, as we all know, must be accepted without question or debate. Above all, the statement ended with the confident ring that should such allegations be repeated outside the House they would be made the subject of legal action.
  I could not believe that a man would be so foolish, even if so wicked, not only to lie to colleagues in the House but be prepared to issue a writ in respect of a libel which he must know to be true. So any doubts I may have had were removed. I thought it right to come to the House, and I do not reproach myself for that, to sit beside a colleague of my Administration while he made a personal statement refuting the damaging and scandalous remarks made about him.
  Mr. H. Wilson: I am sorry to interrupt the right hon. Gentleman, but may I put this question? He told us that he first heard of the story of the relationship on 1st February. Did he make full inquiries, through the security services, from Miss Keeler herself, and was all this information available to the five Ministers?
  The Prime Minister: I am coming to that. I said that I would take this in sequence. I do not object, but it all comes in turn.
  This deals with the action I took with some colleagues up to the date of Mr. Profumo's statement in the House. I wish to make this clear to the House and the country. At no time had I any indication either from the security service or from the police that there was any reason to doubt Mr. Profumo's statement as to his connection with Mr. Ward and his short—as his account said—friendship with Miss Keeler. All the rest was rumour which he strenuously denied.
  There is one report—I wish to tell every fact to the House—dating from this period to which I must now refer. When the Lord Chancellor was making his inquiries, at the beginning of this month, he found that the security service had received at the beginning of February certain information from the police. Miss Keeler made a statement on 26th January when being seen by the police in relation to her appearance as a witness in the High Court that on one occasion, when she was going to meet Mr. Profumo, Mr. Ward asked her to discover from him the date on which certain atomic secrets were to be handed to West Germany by the Americans—this was at the time of the Cuban crisis—and that she did not put this question to Mr. Profumo.
  I should explain that there is some confusion both about what she said and about what she was asked to find out. Certainly, on 30th January, 1963, a report was received from an inspector in the Special Branch to the effect that Miss Keeler had told someone that she was asked by Mr. Ward to obtain, if possible, certain secret information from Mr. Profumo relating to a transfer of documents from America to Western Germany. On 25th March, about two months later, the security service received a report that someone else had stated that Miss Keeler said Mr. Ward had asked her to ask Mr. Profumo when the Germans were likely to—I quote the phrase—"get the bomb".
  Finally, in a statement made to the police on 4th April, 1963, Miss Keeler herself said that Mr. Ward had asked her to get information from Mr. Profumo about the Americans giving the bomb to the Germans. The one consistent

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  point throughout these stories is that Miss Keeler always denied having asked the question whatever it was. Already, there is some confusion about the dates. I have told the House of the first statement on 26th January, when she said she was asked to obtain information at the time of the Cuba crisis last October. This would contradict the view that her association with Mr. Profumo ended earlier.
  However, in an article in a newspaper yesterday she states specifically that she was asked to get this information in 1961. But quite apart from this confusion in the various stories, I do not attach great significance to this from the purely security point of view because of the character of the information which she says she was instructed to obtain.
  What is significant—and I fully admit it—is that this is the first and only time that any suggestion came to the notice of the authorities that Mr. Ward was trying to use Miss Keeler as an instrument for obtaining information. This was 30th January. The security service did not pass either of these reports to me. [Hon. Members: "Oh."] I am only giving the facts. In view of the discussion between my private office and the security service, at the beginning of February, and as things have turned out, I think it very unfortunate that this information was not given to me, but the head of the security service, in considering these reports, did not take that as of great importance.
  As Ivanov had left the country he was satisfied, in the investigations he had already carried out, that the indirect contact between Ivanov and Mr. Profumo had not involved any breach of security. Yet I must repeat that I strongly regret that this information, which came originally from the police, was not, through the files of the security service, passed on to me.
  I have time only to give the facts to the House today and I think that I have the right to do so. I turn to the second part of the narrative: what happened after Mr. Profumo's statement until the time of his admission of the truth. I will deal, first, with the communications I received from the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition—to which he referred today—and to the discussions I had with him. I will also deal with
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  other reports which are alleged to have been sent to me during this period. I have dealt with everything up to the time of Mr. Profumo making his statement and now I wish to deal with what happened between the time that statement was made to the House—in which I had every confidence [Hon. Members: "Oh."]—Indeed, I think that that applies to the whole House—and his ultimate confession.
  The right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition came to see me about this case for the first time on 27th March, that is, five days after Mr. Profumo's statement. I am not complaining that he did not come earlier—if he thought that these security things were so dangerous—but, in any case, he came after the statement was made. He brought with him a copy of a letter he had had from Mr. Ward in November, 1962—about five months before. I do not complain about this delay, although, if I am accused of dilatoriness, I am entitled to observe that the right hon. Gentleman's description of Mr. Ward as a "self-confessed intermediary of the Russians"—if he thought him to be that—should have led him to have forwarded the letter to me. But he did not. Before dealing with this letter, which had nothing whatever to do with Mr. Profumo at all but which described the activities of Ivanov in October, 1962—at the time of the Cuba crisis—I ask hon. Members to cast their minds back to that critical period.
  I confess that the last few days have not been very agreeable to me, but I must say, for the reasons I have given, that although the whole of this is so horrible and distasteful the week of the Cuba crisis—and I have been through some in peace and war—was the week of most strain I can ever remember in my life. It then seemed to many of us—and I think that the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition shared this feeling—that in the struggle of wills between the Soviet Union and the Western Powers, primarily the United States, the world might be coming to the brink of war.
  During that week, as the pressures developed and built up to the climax on Friday and Saturday, the strain was certainly very great. Naturally, the same was true of the Soviet Government, who

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  were doing all they could to further their policy and weaken the resolution of the West. Part of this Soviet activity was public, for example, the statement issued by the Soviet Government on 23rd October, and some of it was private.
  For example, Mr. Loginov, the Soviet Chargé ďAffaires, called on the Foreign Secretary on 25th October at his own request—that is, the request of Mr. Loginov—and expressed the hope that Her Majesty's Government would do all in their power to avert developments in Cuba which, as he said "could push the world to the brink of a military catastrophe." Mr. Loginov's aim was apparently that Her Majesty's Government should bring pressure to bear on the United States Government. Similarly, many members of the Soviet Embassy—not only in London but, I think, elsewhere—were making approaches to various diplomatic missions in London and to other people from about 24th October until the crisis was resolved on Sunday, 28th October.
  Ivanov, with the assistance of Mr. Ward, was perhaps rather more persistent than most; but he was not the only one to try to bring this pressure to shake us and, by us, bring what pressure we could on the United States. But since these matters have been mentioned, I think it right that I should give the House a chronological account of the activities at that time with which Ivanov, whatever Tass may say, was involved.
  On 24th October, 1962, Mr. Ward telephoned the resident clerk at the Foreign Office and gave him, to pass on to Sir Harold Caccia, an account of a conversation he had just had with Ivanov. Among other things, Mr. Ward said that Ivanov had stated that the Americans had created a situation in which there was no opportunity for either the Americans or the Russians to compromise and that the Soviet Government looked to the United Kingdom as their one hope of conciliation.
  The next day, 25th October, my hon. Friend the Member for Farnham (Sir G. Nicholson) informed Sir Hugh Stephenson, then Deputy-Under-Secretary of the Foreign Office—I think that my hon. Friend was one of Mr. Ward's patients—that Ivanov had been to see him to give a somewhat similar story and to ask for some indication that the
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  British Government were considering working towards negotiations at the Summit. This day was the same day as that on which the Foreign Secretary had seen Mr. Loginov; and later the same afternoon Mr. Ward spoke to Sir Harold Caccia's private secretary to convey similar information.
  On the following day, 26th October, Mr. Ward telephoned Lord Arran and asked to bring Ivanov to his house for a discussion the next morning. Lord Arran agreed and Ivanov and Mr. Ward came to see him on 27th October. Ivanov again stated that he wished to get a message to the British Government by indirect means asking them to call a Summit conference in London forthwith. Lord Arran reported this initiative at the time both to my office and to the Foreign Office, and later sent in a full report.
  It is thus clear that at the time of the Cuba crisis Ivanov was using all the methods at his disposal to try to persuade the British Government to take some initiative. But he was not alone in this. Nor were we in any doubt about the motives of these approaches, which must have been to drive a wedge between ourselves and the United States at this very crucial moment. It is not uncommon, at a moment of crisis, that a lot of worthy people should be used to see whether they could be of some assistance. That has often happened. Ivanov's approaches were, therefore, only a small piece of the jigsaw; they were a natural part of the Soviet attempt to weaken our resolution. Our reply at the time was that the ordinary diplomatic channels were open.
  That was what the letter was mainly about. I was not quite sure whether it was a reproach to me for not having yielded to the pressures. Some people thought that we should have taken the initiative. It was not a very easy decision to make and hon. Members must remember our close discussion all the time with the President of the United States. That is what the letter was about and I have told the House about it in detail. It was, of course, known because Sir Hugh Stephen-son and all these people were involved init.
  The right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition next wrote to me on

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  9th April and sent me a copy of a memorandum, prepared by the hon. Member for Dudley, of a conversation he had had with Mr. Ward on 26th March—four days after Mr. Profumo's statement. I at once forwarded the right hon. Gentleman's letter, and enclosures, to the security authorities. They examined the material and concluded that there was no evidence in it of any breach of security and, indeed, that there were no new points in it. There was nothing of Mr. Ward's conversation, reported in this memorandum, not already brought to their attention, either by Mr. Ward or through other reports. It was a long memorandum and it is interesting to note that, among other allegations—and I hope that I am correct in this—it included the statement that there was no impropriety in the association between Mr. Profumo and Miss Keeler.
  On 13th May the right hon. Gentleman wrote me a letter asking what action I was going to take on his material and I replied that it did not seem to me that any further action was necessary. On 23rd May the right hon. Gentleman sent me a letter he had received from Mr. Ward which, among other things, said that Mr. Profumo had not told the truth in his statement in the House of Commons. On the following day the right hon. Gentleman asked to see me before the Whitsun Recess and we met on 27th May, when the right hon. Gentleman expressed the view that there were still security implications which required further examination.
  I said that I would consider the right hon. Gentleman's representations and inform him. I had, in addition, to consider further statement made by Mr. Ward. Whatever value can be given to them, I must consider them. On 7th May he had telephoned my Principal Private Secretary and asked for an interview with him. I was in some doubt about whether it would be advisable to grant this request or what useful purpose it would serve. But I decided that as it might be possible that Mr. Ward had some information to give bearing on security my Principal Private Secretary ought to see him. I arranged that he should be accompanied by a member of the security service, and this, in fact, was done on the same evening.
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  It transpired that Mr. Ward wished to complain about certain inquiries which the police were making at that time and which, as we now know, led eventually to his arrest. He was, of course, very properly told that this was nothing to do with me or, indeed, with any other member of the Government; that the police were charged with the duty and responsibility of investigating any alleged criminal offence and were not in any way in this country under political direction or control.
  During the course of his complaints, Mr. Ward let drop the remark that Mr. Profumo had not told the truth. This, of course, was the opposite from what he had been saying earlier in his conversation with the hon. Member for Dudley. I do not know how many people Mr. Ward wrote to or spoke to. He did write to the Home Secretary on 19th May, asking for the police inquiries to be called off and making allegations about Mr. Profumo's untruthfulness. He also wrote to my hon. Friend the Member for St. Marylebone (Sir W. Wakefield) and to the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition, on 20th May. Of course, without saying again that this case is sub judice, it seems fairly clear that what he was hoping was that the police activities would be discontinued.
  As a result of these fresh allegations by Mr. Ward, Mr. Profumo was again closely questioned on several occasions and each time he firmly maintained the truth of his statements. On 29th May I learned for the first time about the statement that Miss Keeler made to the police on 26th January, which I have already described to the House. I heard of it for the first time on 29th May. This was the story that she had been asked to obtain certain information from Mr. Profumo and had not done so.
  Although I found and still find it difficult to attach weight to this story, I felt that in view of the doubts expressed by the Leader of the Opposition on the security angle and in view of this information which had only just reached me it would be right to take further action. I therefore decided to ask the Lord Chancellor to look carefully at the security reports and other documents which I had received in connection with

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  the case and to make any inquiries which he thought necessary from the security service and the police and to advise me whether, in his opinion, he thought that any further action seemed desirable. I informed the right hon. Gentleman by letter of my decision on 30th May.
  The Lord Chancellor accepted this duty and in the course of it not only made a large number of inquiries from the security authorities and from the police, but questioned a number of Ministers and Mr. Profumo. I received his report and, as I undertook to do, I sent a copy of it to the right hon. Gentleman. I have no complaint about the courteous way in which the right hon. Gentleman referred to the report and made use of it only to the extent of referring to things within his knowledge.
  Very serious things have been said about me and I must reply to them. I will now deal with the serious accusation which has been made that I had either received, or ought to have received, certain statements from the police authorities and from Mr. Eddowes which should have led me to question the probity of Mr. Profumo, In view of the importance which the Press has attached to this matter, I must deal with it fully. Here I will summarise with quotations a statement made to the police. I have placed copies of the whole of this statement in the Library.
  On 24th March, at a time when Miss Keeler was out of the country, her mother, Mrs. Huish, volunteered a statement to the Buckinghamshire police. She said that a Mr. Eddowes had called at her home on the previous day saying that he was concerned for Miss Keeler's safety, that she was in danger and that he was prepared to do anything to help. He suggested that Miss Keeler should make a statement saying that Ivanov was her boy friend and that she got information from Mr. Profumo and gave it to Ivanov for a joke.
  Mr. Eddowes went on to say that Miss Keeler would have to keep to this story to protect herself. He said that she would get £5,000 to £10,000 when the Press had the story. In that respect, it was an underestimate in my view. Mr. Eddowes added—this is what he told the mother—that the Government would be forced to open an inquiry to which Miss Keeler
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  would state these things and turn out a little heroine.
  On 29th March, that is, five days later, a chief inspector of the Metropolitan Police saw Mr. Eddowes at the latter's house in London. Mr. Eddowes made a statement and handed the police an aide-memoire. This included the allegation that Miss Keeler had said she often met Ivanov at Ward's flat where she also met Mr. Profumo. He alleged that Miss Keeler said that Ivanov had asked her to obtain information about nuclear warheads, which she said she had not done. Mr. Eddowes was told that his information would be placed before the proper authorities. Of course, all this was hearsay, that is, Eddowes's account of what he said Miss Keeler had told him.
  As the police had already obtained a statement, to which I have already referred, and were, moreover, aware of the statement made by Mrs. Huish to the Buckinghamshire police, Eddowes's allegations did not have the importance which otherwise might have attached to them. Eddowes was not told, as he claimed, that his report would be on my deck the following morning. He was told that the matter would be dealt with by the proper authorities. A few days later Mr. Eddowes rang up the police, on his return from abroad, and asked what had happened to his statement and was told by the police officer to whom he spoke that the matter was out of his hands.
  This was at the beginning of April. From that date until 13th June, Friday of last week, Mr. Eddowes took no further action although there had, of course, been sensational developments in the meantime. Whatever the reason for the timing may have been, Mr. Eddowes wrote to me on 13th June and sent the letter to the Press. The House, I think, may draw its own conclusions of the way this story reads.
  I have now to complete the narrative of events. The Lord Chancellor began his inquiry on Friday, 31st May, the day after I asked him to undertake it. On the same day, the Friday, Mr. Profumo left for a short holiday in Venice. He had been told that the Lord Chancellor would want to see him in connection with the inquiry on the following Thursday, and he arranged to return in time for that. In the event, the Lord Chancellor made more rapid progress than he had

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  expected and asked Mr. Profumo to return a day earlier, on the Wednesday.
  Mr. Profumo returned on the Whit Monday, and that evening he asked for an urgent interview with my Principal Private Secretary, saying that there had been a serious development. This meeting took place at 10.30 the following morning, Tuesday, 4th June, when my right hon. Friend the Chief Whip and my Principal Private Secretary saw Mr. Profumo. He said at once that his protestations of innocence had been untrue and that he had, in fact, had an improper association with Miss Keeler. He immediately tendered his resignation and indicated his intention of applying for the Chiltern Hundreds.
  All this was reported to me at once and the information was announced by way of the exchange of letters, as the House and the country know.
  That completes the narrative. I must now summarise the position. In August, 1961, I had never heard of Mr. Ward and, indeed, I never did till February—
  Mr. H. Wilson: Nor did I know who he was.
  The Prime Minister: But he sent the right hon. Gentleman a letter. I had not even had the pleasure of being his correspondent. I had never heard of Mr. Ward in August, 1961, nor had I heard of his connection with Ivanov or Mr. Profumo. The warning given to him by Sir Norman Brook—and it was a warning simply to keep away from the house where the Russian diplomat went—related to Mr. Profumo's acquaintance with Mr. Ward, not with a woman. I had no information from the police or from the security service before Mr. Profumo's statement which lead me to doubt his veracity.
  I received from the right hon. Gentleman after Mr. Profumo's statement certain papers to which I have referred, but Mr. Ward's letter did not bring in Mr. Profumo and the hon. Member for Dudley's record of his conversation with Mr. Ward showed that at that time Mr. Ward was saying that he did not question Mr. Profumo's honour. No other communications were sent to me by the police or the security authorities from the date of Mr. Profumo's statement to the date of his confession that would
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  have led me to doubt the truth of his statement.
  Moreover, I would ask the House to consider what alternative I had except to believe what I was told by Mr. Profumo. Here was a man who had been for a long time a Member of the House; who had a good war record; who had been appointed originally to a junior office in 1951 and had worked his way up the ladder. Why, then, should I disbelieve what he told me? Would I not have been guilty of great harshness if I had then demanded his resignation?
  Mr. E. Shinwell rose—
  The Prime Minister: Let me just finish.
  The House will, therefore, realise what a terrible shock it was to me suddenly to be confronted with this dreadful admission, and all that it implied regarding his conduct towards us all—and I agree that it was towards us all—
  Mr. Shinwell: The right hon. Gentleman disclaims any appearance of harshness, or any intention of harshness, in connection with Mr. Profumo, but what about the harshness when he dismissed seven Ministers a year ago?
  The Prime Minister: If I may say so, I think that tells exactly the other way. I have had the difficult task—and Prime Ministers have—of making changes for what seemed to be improvements in the national service—[Hon. Members: "Oh."] Of course it is a difficult task, but I have not had to do so by telling a Minister that terrible rumours are circulating about him and that I cannot believe his denial. That is quite a different order.
  The right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition has suggested that it was only because of his insistence and the decision to ask the Lord Chancellor to make inquiries that Mr. Profumo decided to confess his guilt. I fear I am not able to speculate on the reasons that impelled him to confess. It is true that it may have been because he was asked by the Lord Chancellor to come before him, but, after all, he had faced examinations by very able men—including the Law Officers—not just once but several times.
  There may have been other reasons. He may have felt the pressure too heavy

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  upon him. He may have been induced at last to open his heart to his wife. He may no longer have felt able to live with a lie. Or, to take a more cynical view, having heard that the activities of the police were leading to Mr. Ward's arrest, he may have feared that out of this the truth would inevitably come. I have no grounds for deciding between these various speculations.
  I have thought it right at this, the first occasion, to give the House a full and detailed account of my connection with this unhappy story. From the beginning, right hon. Gentlemen have said that we ought to concern ourselves only with the security aspect. Later, other commentators have laid more stress upon the moral implications. Of course, both aspects are serious, and both of great importance, and I thought it right to confine myself today to the strict matters before the House.
  Let me now summarise. I have told the House in great detail the whole story of this affair as far as I was concerned with it. I think that I have omitted nothing of importance—I hope not. I have certainly avoided nothing. I said at the beginning that it was my duty to act honourably, to act justly, and to act prudently. My colleagues have been deceived, and I have been deceived, grossly deceived—and the House has been deceived—but we have not been parties to deception, and I claim that upon a fair view of the facts as I have set them out I am entitled to the sympathetic understanding and confidence of the House and of the country.
  5.24 p.m.
  Mr. J. Grimond: There are many elements of tragedy in this affair, and there will certainly be sympathy with the Prime Minister for what must have been for him a most painful occasion. It has been alleged that there is a personal attack upon his honour, but that, to my mind, has never been the case.
  When Lord Poole suggested at the weekend that we must make up our minds whether the Prime Minister was a man of honour and integrity or not, I do not think that he asked the right question. The question that faces this House and this country is not whether or not the Prime Minister's personal honour is established, but whether his
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  Government can now command respect and prestige sufficient to rule the country. The question is, further, whether they are a competent Government, and it is to that that we have to direct our attention.
  The Prime Minister has at last given us his account of the facts—
  Sir Kenneth Pickthorn: Why "at last"?
  Mr. Grimond: I say "at last" because there has been endless speculation, and though the Prime Minister has had no previous chance to speak, time has been passing.
  The right hon. Gentleman has told us that there was some suspicion away back in 1961 that Dr. Ward and his associates were not very desirable people for the company of the Secretary of State for War, but that this information was not told him by Sir Norman Brook. Apparently, Sir Norman Brook took no further action other than warning the Secretary of State, and the Prime Minister has told us that, in fact, he knew nothing about the matter until February of this year.
  One point to notice quite clearly from this is that the Prime Minister is head of security, and that he cannot possibly assure the House or the country as to what damage may have been done by this, because he knew nothing about the association of the Secretary of State for War with Miss Keeler and Dr. Ward until about eighteen months after it was over.
  What happened then? In February of this year it was brought to the right hon. Gentleman's attention that there were certain rumours about this association with Dr. Ward and Miss Keeler. One thing I am not very clear about is that it is alleged—with, apparently, circumstantial evidence—that certain of our newspapers, in February of this year, had statements and letters from Miss Keeler and. possibly, from other people connected with the case. Is the Prime Minister telling the House that he had no information whatever from those newspapers? If so, have the Government made any attempt to get in touch with those newspapers to discover why, when they had this information, it was not made available either to the Government themselves or to M.I.5?
  The Prime Minister decided, however, on examining such information as was

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  available to him, that he should not accept Mr. Profumo's resignation—Mr. Profumo apparently offered his resignation, and it was refused. The Prime Minister has mentioned the case of the hon. Member for Glasgow, Hillhead (Mr. Galbraith). There is, I must say, a strange discrepancy between the treatment of the hon. Member for Hillhead and of the Secretary of State for War. On the strength of a story which not even the journalist who told it believed, the Prime Minister not only accepted the resignation of the hon. Member for Hill head but instantly set up a court of investigation—
  Mr. Peter Tapsell rose—
  Hon. Members: Sit down.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Sir William Anstruther-Gray): Order.
  Mr. Grimond: If the Prime Minister wishes to correct me, he can certainly do so. He, however, decided that the allegations against the Secretary of State for War did not warrant the acceptance of his resignation, I should have thought that they were more serious than those against the hon. Member for Hillhead. I can imagine few more serious things for the head of the security of the country than any allegations that his Secretary of State for War was putting himself in a position where he might be a security risk.
  Of course, it has never been and cannot be denied that that is exactly the position that he was in. Everybody has accepted that there was a security risk; but, nevertheless, this was considered apparently of less moment than the affair which led to the Vassall Tribunal.
  So we come on to the events of 21st and 22nd March. I must confess that I think these are without parallel. Whatever the Prime Minister may say, this tribunal of Ministers, sitting in the middle of the night to examine one of their colleagues, with a solicitor, would, I should have thought, have shaken everybody's confidence in the ability of the Government to conduct their business. However, in spite of what they already knew, in spite of the fact that they knew there was a letter in existence addressed to Miss Keeler and beginning "Darling",
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  they came to the conclusion that Mr. Profumo should be believed and that the association was entirely innocent.
  Did they ask where this letter was? Did they make any effort to get it? Did they make any inquiries of the papers? I would also ask, for what purpose did they think Mr. Profumo saw Miss Keeler? Did they think that it was merely to make conversation? They may say that at that time they did not know about Miss Keeler. Did they make any effort to find out who she was? Perhaps they did know; if so, did they think this was an entirely innocent affair? These are people who are in charge of the country. They are people of some standing.
  Perhaps they did believe what they were told then. But what happened afterwards? From then onwards there was a continual stream of evidence, not all of which may be good but all of which pointed to the fact that Dr. Ward was certainly an undesirable man and possibly a Russian agent, and that there was more to this story than had come to light in Mr. Profumo's statement.
  The Prime Minister may say that, individually, not all of these things which were brought to his attention could carry weight. First of all, there was the information from the Leader of the Opposition. Then there was information from the hon. Member for Dudley (Mr. Wigg). Then there were various documents from Dr. Ward himself. As far as I can understand—I should like the Prime Minister to correct this if I am wrong—at no time did he see Mr. Profumo personally. [Hon. Members: "Answer."] In spite of the fact that he was head of security, and this continual stream of allegations was pouring in, at no time did he think it right to see the Secretary of State for War personally. The Prime Minister is head of security in this country.
  Mr. Wigg: Can we take it from the Prime Minister's silence that at no time did he have conversations with Mr. Profumo?
  The Prime Minister: What I said in my speech I will repeat. I thought it better that the examination which led up finally to the statement should be made by the Chief Whip and the Law

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  Officers. After Mr. Profumo gave it, he repeated it to me and made it quite clear to me that he proposed to take action in the courts. I advised him that I could see no objection and, indeed, I thought it would be wise of him to do so.
  Mr. Grimond: I gather that the Prime Minister had no conversation with his Secretary of State for War. Throughout the whole of these events he did not see him personally—and he is head of security in this country.
  The Prime Minister: Up to the statement there was no question of security, because if his statement was true his friendship with this woman had lasted for five weeks, eighteen months before. Of course, now that we know that what he said was untrue, then the security risk arises.
  Mr. Grimond: But whatever the reason, the right hon. Gentleman never saw him. He was never seen by the Prime Minister. That is what we are told. The Prime Minister says there was no reason to see him. But there were, in fact, many allegations and he must have been aware of these allegations. He had seen and heard from the Leader of the Opposition.
  Hon. Members: No.
  Mr. Wigg: The right hon. Gentleman has got it right.
  Mr. H. Wilson: The Prime Minister is certainly correct on this point. I made no approach to the Prime Minister till after the statement in the House because of the sequence of events that I described. But, certainly, the Prime Minister had had a statement from the police and the newspaper at the end of January and the beginning of February.
  Mr. Grimond: I am not referring to any particular date.
  Further, it is very strange that the police never reported what they knew. Again, the Prime Minister is head of security in this country and is responsible. Nobody else can take the responsibility. When he assures this House that he is responsible for security in this country, that does not mean that he is responsible only when it goes right. He must also take responsibility when it goes wrong. There is no doubt that security did go wrong.
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  There is no possible doubt that this was reported to the Prime Minister, and there is no doubt that he ought to have taken much earlier and stronger action than he did. There is no doubt that whatever the five Ministers thought on this occasion on 22nd March, long before 4th June, they should have had serious doubts about the statement which was made to this House. There is no doubt that very serious doubt was thrown on to that statement long before Mr. Profumo's resignation. No steps were taken by the Government to ensure that the honour of this House was maintained.
  There is another aspect of this affair. I do not believe that politicians are particularly good guardians of public morals. Certainly, there is an aspect of private morality in this whole case, and an important one—and I compliment the Prime Minister on the fact that he did not attempt to deal with this matter—but during the past week we have been told by leaders of the Conservative Party that this shows a decline in national morality. We have been told that they cannot accept this division between public and private morals, and some have gone so far as to say that they cannot sit in a Government with people who might be blackmailed.
  Does this mean anything at all? If it means anything, it means apparently that there is to be an inquest into the private morality of people who take public office. I should regret that. If it does not mean that, it means nothing. Unless it means that, it is sheer rhetoric. Unless it means that an examination is to take place into private morality, it is meaningless.
  I do not believe that morality is confined to sexual morality. What I say is that there has been a series of events and that on the security side this is not an isolated incident. It is not the first breach of security from which this country has suffered. This is not the first bungle by the Government in a most vital part of the national interest. Furthermore, many of these people who are now calling for sackcloth and ashes and pouring fire and brimstone on the whole country are the very people who went through Suez.
  I do not remember many of them making a strong protest about Hola. Not an eyebrow was twitched when a

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  former Lord Chancellor left his office and went straight into private business at a very high salary, having been appealing for wage restraint. Not so long ago we had the Home Secretary defending in this House his failure to tell the House that Chief Enahoro could not have the counsel he wanted.
  This is the Government of whom Sir Roy Welensky said, "They put their arms round your neck so that they can find a soft spot in your back to stab." This is not an isolated incident and it is not to be written off by blaming a sharp decline in national morality. When did Ministers and their associates discover this sharp decline in national morality? When did they discover that the Church was at fault, or that it was all the fault of the Labour Party? To bring this in is the tactic of the cuttle fish; it is an attempt to darken the waters in order that the main point at issue may be obscured.
  The point here is: is this a Government which can command respect for this country in the world? After this succession of incidents do they really think that they can speak for Britain? Do they think that this has not damaged our prestige? This is the point which they have to answer. I know that it has been said that the Prime Minister will stay on for a short time and that then he will be quietly pushed aside. This, to my mind, would be the most cynical outcome of all.
  This really would be putting party before country in a despicable manner. If the Government have a contribution to offer this country, let them offer it, but if their party, at the back of its mind, has made up its mind that the Prime Minister must go, the time for him to go is now. There is no possible excuse for having a caretaker Government at this moment.
  At the back of all this, if there is an issue of public morality—andI think that there is one—it is an issue of public morality whether politics in this country are simply about maintaining office at all costs or whether they are about the country and humanity at large. If there is an issue of public morality, it is whether the Government are entitled to say, on the one hand, "This is a national matter and not a party matter", and, at the same
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  time, put out a three-line Whip. And then, when challenged about this, to say, "A three-line Whip does not tell you how to vote".
  If there is a question of public morality, it is a question of priorities. I think that the people of this country will be severely shocked if they come to the conclusion that the maintenance of a particular Government in office is much more important than the competence of that Government, or their ability to run the country.
  I do not see how the Prime Minister and his immediate colleagues can escape responsibility. They must either take responsibility for the security services and general conduct of the country, or they will be responsible for a very severe blow at the political life of this country—one or the other.
  A great deal of horror has been expressed about Mr. Profumo, and certainly no one will defend his conduct. But I think that all this ceremonial washing of hands in public on anything to do with Mr. Profumo has been overdone. The Government sat with him as their colleague for two years. Some at least have had the courage to say that Mr. Profumo was their friend and that he remained so. I think that that was a courageous thing to say. They may have been wrong to have him as a friend, but as they were his friends, they were not afraid to say so. I much prefer that to the idea that he should be kicked in the stomach and the teeth. The Government may have been wrong to keep him, but they left him. It is not a pretty thing to hear horror and disgust expressed about their colleague in this way.
  Here again, I think that the Prime Minister is responsible for keeping Mr. Profumo in his Ministry. There has been a very great deal of damage done to this House. There has been a great deal of damage done to politics in this country. There has been a great deal of damage done to people's belief in the responsibility of the Cabinet. It is very odd that the Home Secretary, apparently, on the night of the 21st, never knew anything about it. A great deal of damage has been done to the name of this country in the world. I do not think that this is due to any fault of the Tory Party as a whole, but I do believe that the Tory

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  Party should ask who is responsible and I do not see how their leaders in office can escape responsibility.
  5.45 p.m.
  Sir Lionel Heald: Mr. Deputy-Speaker, in thanking you for calling me to speak in this debate, may I say at once that I speak in it only with great reluctance and unhappiness. As I see it, it is impossible for this House to discharge its duty today without reopening and further probing the terrible wounds, not only of a former colleague of ours and a member of this great fellowship of the House of Commons, but also those of his family and his friends.
  Nothing, surely, is more hateful than to hit a man when he is down. But we have our duty to do in the House of Commons, without any consideration of party whatever, without any consideration of personal feelings, friendship or hostility, and that duty can be fulfilled only if we make a calm and dispassionate examination, so far as may be humanly possible, of the circumstances in which the false statement came to be made in this Chamber by the then Secretary of State and to be approved by the Government.
  I think it is right to acknowledge the fairness and honesty, if I may say so, with which the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition put this point at the very outset. He said that the Secretary of State deliberately lied to the House on a promise of good faith arising from a personal statement. The question has to be faced—he said—did other Ministers connive at that or fail to inquire sufficiently into it? That is a perfectly fair and proper inquiry for the House to make. The House, as I have said, should, so far as is humanly possible, adopt a dispassionate attitude.
  When the House has been affronted in the way that it has, it is very difficult to avoid indignation and to preserve a judicial attitude either against Mr. Profumo himself—but that is over, because he has admitted it—or against those who might appear, as has been suggested, to have connived at it. In fairness to the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition, I do not think that he did actually make that accusation. He said that it must be made plain whether they had connived or not.
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  The accusation is, of course, put in the form of a dilemma. Either, it is said, there was a conspiracy, or there was almost criminal gullibility. I do not believe that the House is seriously concerned with the first of those two, the idea that there could be a conspiracy among Ministers, and I believe that we can, thank God, dismiss that possibility in this House.
  The second is a much more plausible suggestion. I believe that public opinion can be summarised, perhaps, from a rather unusual source. A letter appeared in The Times under the name of Mr. Osbert Lancaster. I can only assume that it is the same Mr. Osbert Lancaster who habitually makes a very good guess at public opinion in another medium. He said that had some of our politicians displayed a little healthy incredulity at the appropriate moment we should have been spared a lot of cant.
  In the circumstances, I believe that it is necessary for us to make a very strict appraisal of the situation. I should like to say that, as a former Law Officer, I have thought it my duty to do this with as open a mind as I could. Of course, it is perfectly right to say that as an ex-Attorney-General I would be anxious to sec the Law Officers come out of this affair well. That is only human. At the same time, the Law Officers of the Crown from time immemorial have regarded their first duty in this House as being their duty to the House, and, second and third, that to the Government and to their own party. I can honestly assure the House that that is the attitude I have tried to adopt. I shall not try to tell the House what it should decide. All that I shall venture to tell the House—I believe that it might be of help to it—is the conclusion that I have reached and the grounds upon which I have reached it. I have done so after the fullest and most frank discussion with the Law Officers of the Crown, who were appointed to deal with this matter and who, naturally, dealt with it when the statement came to be made.
  Also, I have had the opportunity of a full and frank discussion with Mr. Profumo's own solicitor, who had been authorised by him to waive his professional privilege and allow the whole of the facts to be stated. I think that the House should appreciate that, in

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  doing that, Mr. Profumo, for whom I hold no brief whatever—I knew him only slightly; I have had no complaint to make of him of any kind, and I have always found him courteous, helpful and efficient in his work—did make a measure of atonement. He authorised Mr. Derek Glogg, of Messrs. Theodore Goddard and Co., his solicitors, to supply me and to supply everyone with a full account of his action in the matter.
  The matter began on 28th January when the Solicitor-General and the Attorney-General were made acquainted with rumours, partly, no doubt, through what they heard in the House, and they asked Mr. Profumo to discuss with them the rumours which had circulated. As we know, he denied any connection with Miss Keeler other than a quite harmless one, and he pointed out that, at the time when he knew her, as was the fact, she was not in any way associated with West Indians, with hemp, or with anything of that kind. This is something which seems to have been forgotten, because, with hindsight, we all assume now that, when he met her he went into an atmosphere of that kind, which, of course, is quite inaccurate.
  The Attorney-General then gave him some advice. This may explain something which caused, it seemed to me, an unfortunate air of amusement, even of hilarity. I refer to the presence of Mr. Profumo's solicitor. The Attorney-General said to him, as I should have said—and, I may say, as I did say at the time to friends of mine in the House—"The proper course for you to take in circumstances of this kind is to go to a solicitor of the highest experience. You have the right to absolute confidence with him. Go to him. Ask his advice and do what he tells you". That is what Mr. Profumo did. He went to Mr. Derek Clogg of Theodore Goddard and Co., a very well known firm of London solicitors.
  Hon. and learned Members of the other branch of our learned profession will know that if one wished to choose anyone to whom to tell, as one's solictor, an untrue story, Mr. Derek Clogg is about the last man in the world one would choose. He is a gentleman of great reputation. He has had great experience in cases dealing with libel, with divorce and all those matters where
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  human frailty and possible lying may come into account.
  Mr. Clogg believed what he was told by his client. Mr. Profumo told him—this I am authorised to tell the House—that he realised that the story was an improbable one, but he said to him, "I implore you to believe me because I know how difficult it is going to be to persuade you". He was cross-examined. The matter was gone into. On 3rd February, Mr. Clogg told the Attorney-General that he was satisfied that the story which he had been told was true.
  On 4th February, a remarkable event occurred. Mr. Clogg and his counsel, a very well-known member of the Bar, Mr. Mark Littman, visited the Attorney-General and informed him that an approach had been made by someone—I can say no more at the moment about that—to Messrs. Theodore Goddard and Co. which appeared to indicate a demand for money. For obvious reasons, I cannot give particulars. There was then a discussion and Mr. Profumo stated that he desired to go, as he did go, with his solicitor and counsel to the Director of Public Prosecutions and ask him to take action. What stronger confirmation could Mr. Clogg have of the truth of what he had been told?
  It is right and natural to ask—it is the question which I asked—why did not the Director of Public Prosecutions proceed? There will be hon. and learned Members and Members on both sides of the House with knowledge of such matters who will know that there are circumstances in which it is difficult to take proceedings on a letter received from a solicitor unless certain evidence is available. I do not believe anyone will suggest that the Director of Public Prosecutions was engaged in any supposed conspiracy. In the event, proceedings were not taken.
  I pass now to 22nd March. This was the occasion of the Consolidated Fund Bill, when several hon. Members opposite referred to rumours. I interrupted, I hope not over-strenuously, the hon. Lady the Member for Blackburn (Mrs. Castle) and suggested that, if an accusation was to be made, it should be made.
  After the debate, as we know, there was the meeting of Ministers. It has been asked, what in the world was Mr. Clogg doing there? The explanation was very

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  simple. The Ministers, particularly the Attorney-General, said to Mr. Profumo, "The time has now come when you have got to deal with this situation. The only way you can do so satisfactorily is to make a statement in the House of Commons". He said that he would like to do this, so it was than said to him—I should myself regard this as a perfectly proper step—"In the circumstances, we had better ask Mr. Clogg to come here and see that there is no question of your saying anything which you ought not to say". [Hon. Members: "Oh."] Certainly. If hon. Members will be patient, they will see what was meant by that. Mr. Clogg came here. The Law Officers of the Crown drafted the statement, and they submitted it to Mr. Clogg, asking him whether, in his view, it was right and proper that Mr. Profumo should make it. We should not forget that he might have been incriminating himself. They did not know what Mr. Clogg's attitude would be. [Interruption.] Let us be patient for a moment. After all, these men are in the dock; they are entitled to be defended.
  The Solicitor-General has told me that he said to Mr. Profumo, "You must realise that you are making a statement that there is no truth whatever in any of these allegations. Supposing that there is, for the rest of your life you will be submitting yourself to blackmail". Mr. Profumo's answer was, "I quite realise that, but, as it is all true, I have nothing to fear", and, as we know, he made the statement.
  It is now said that these people were incompetent and gullible. In the first place, how many people in the House, had they been there at the time, would really have supposed that Mr. Profumo was prepared to make that statement knowing that it was grossly false? I do not believe that any trained lawyer or anyone else would have thought it. In the circumstances, we ought to think very carefully before we start condemning anyone.
  Unfortunately, we must condemn Mr. Profumo, but, as I have already said, this is something which we ought to do at the right place and at the right time, if at all; and, in any event, I should have thought that for him and his family the last week and today have probably been punishment sufficient for anyone in the world.
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  That, I believe, is the story which the House ought to appreciate. It leads me to the conclusion, first, that it is fantastic to suggest that there was any conspiracy, and, second, that it is hopelessly unreasonable to suggest that those people were incompetent and gullible and "led down the garden path". It is fair also to say this in the House of Mr. Clogg. Anyone who knows him and his reputation will know that he would be above any such thing if there were a wrong being done, and, in addition, he would not do anything which was utterly stupid or incompetent.
  Mr. Jeremy Thorpe: The right hon. and learned Gentleman has been kind enough to tell us some of the events which transpired at the meeting of the Ministers with Mr. Profumo. Since he is telling us what the Solicitor-General said to him, could he give us a little more information as to the extent to which Mr. Profumo was probed about this letter, the existence of which was known? To what extent did that figure in the matter?
  Sir L. Heald: I gather that it began, and Mr. Profumo admitted that it began, with the word "Darling". I do not share the view of the Leader of the Liberal Party about that. If he would make inquiries, he would find that quite a number of young Liberals address each other as "darling".
  Mr. Grimond: I take the right hon. and learned Gentleman's point. The point is the particular sort of darling that this was. A number of Ministers do not write letters to people who are practically tarts and begin with "Darling".
  Sir L. Heald: They were also told, as was the fact on his story, that this was a farewell letter. It was a letter breaking off communication because, as he said, he had been told—[Hon. Members: "Breaking off what?"] Breaking off connection in every sense of the word with this lady.
  Mr. Michael Foot rose—
  Sir L. Heald: I am sorry; I cannot give way.
  Lieut.-Colonel Sir Walter Bromley-Davenport: Do not give way.
  Mr. Eric Fletcher: Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman explain why he thinks that it was necessary to break off an innocent association?
  Sir L. Heald: I cannot answer that. As I understand it, this was a farewell letter, and, if one is terminating any kind of temporary association with a lady, I should have thought that it was much wiser to do it in a polite and pleasant way.
  Mr. M. Foot rose—
  Sir L. Heald: I do not think that some hon. Members have it in mind that it has been stated that before this letter was written Mr. Profumo had been warned and told to break off the association. That was why he broke it off. He had been warned against Ward.
  I do not think I can continue with this, but I must make this point quite clear. [Interruption.] I do not propose to satisfy the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman). That is not my duty. What I want to do is to address the House's attention to this point, that the letter was not one which could be quoted in detail. It was a letter written to a lady with no copy kept to put in a file.
  Mr. Iain Macleod: May I correct this at once? We had no such letter before us at any time.
  Mr. Wigg rose—
  Sir L. Heald: I have given the House the information that I have been able to obtain to the best of my ability, and I will do anything I can to help the House, but I do not feel that I can subject myself to cross-examination on what other people did and why they did it. That is a matter for the House.
  I ask hon. Members to realise that this is the High Court of Parliament and, therefore, this is the place above all places where justice should be done. It should be done just as much to Members of the House who are Ministers and who took part in this matter as to anyone else. If that is done, I feel that I have no more to say.
  6.5 p.m.
  Mr. F. J. Bellenger: No doubt by rising at this moment I am depriving my hon. Friend the Member
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  for Dudley (Mr. Wigg), who has a large dossier on this case, of the opportunity to speak at this stage. Having listened to the facts as recited by my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition and by the Prime Minister, I think we are in possession of enough of the facts to form a judgment. I do not think that the judgment will be an unbiased one at the end of the debate, because I quite frankly see the point that was so inadequately put by the right hon. and learned Member for Chertsey (Sir L. Heald) in trying to make a case for his own party.
  It would be idle to suggest that the Opposition will not press their case to a point which might cause difficulties for the Government or, at any rate, the Prime Minister. I go so far as to say that, whatever the result of the Division tonight, a feeling will be left in the minds of constituents of my hon. Friends and of right hon. and hon. Members opposite which will not be affected by speeches similar to that of the right hon. and learned Member for Chertsey. The issue has gone far beyond what Mr. Profumo's solicitor advised him to say or not to say. Surely if a Minister, or indeed any Member of Parliament, is convinced that he is speaking the truth, it is not necessary for a solicitor to advise him on what to say and what not to say to this House. After all, the House is very tolerant and if a Minister or Member comes to the House and says, "What has been said against me is untrue", we are prepared to accept that at its face value, and we did. That is not the issue. That was settled long ago by the resignation of Mr. Profumo, both from his high office and from this House. The real issue is very different.
  I shall not stress the security point of view as my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition did today. Certain aspects of his speech when we read them over again will cause profound disquiet among those of us who believe in the security of our nation and who look to the Government and the Prime Minister, and those who are primarily responsible, to defend that security. Certainly it seems from what my right hon. Friend said today about security that some damage may have been caused to us as a nation. My right

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  hon. Friend went on to say that we shall never know. If we shall never know, it is no good prosecuting that point of view ad infinitum.
  What we must concentrate on is the Prime Minister's own responsibility in this case. I do not question his integrity for one moment. I do not think that any hon. Member does. What we do question is his complete inadequacy to control his own Government and to lead the nation in a way which the nation expects.
  The moral issue, which has been glossed over, both in the Press and probably in this House, in favour of the security issue, is something which has an impact on the minds of our constituents. I know very well that the majority of my constituents are not really concerned with the security issue. They do not understand it. They do not understand the workings of M.I.5 or of the police on that scale. What they do understand is that the Government—and I say "Government"advisedly—have failed. I say this to the Leader of the House, who has played a prominent part in this. I cannot believe that he is so innocent in his judgment when certain evidence, even if it is not sworn evidence, is given to him that he should not say to himself, "Is there any doubt?", and advise his colleague, "You had better resign, and resign of your own free will, otherwise you might involve the whole Government", as, undoubtedly, Mr. Profumo has done.
  There is not much that I want to say on the facts, because the facts are there and we shall read them again with considerable interest. The country is, however, concerned, on top of the Vassall case, which was not settled when the vote was taken in this House. The public are concerned about integrity, not only in Government circles, but in official circles, too.
  Today, there was published in The Times a full-page advertisement by Moral Re-Armament. Hon. Members can dismiss that, but I should like to draw their attention to something in that advertisement which is an old story now but which is all part of the pattern. The pattern which I am trying to present to the House is this: are our security services so perfect or not under suspicion that even the Prime Minister can get the truth from them?
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  The Prime Minister told us today that as far back as 1961, there was a suspicion that everything was not all right and that Sir Norman Brook, as the Prime Minister said, warned Mr. Profumo. Did it stop there? I am amazed if that is the case—an official occupying such a high position as he did—that it stopped there and that nothing went outside the Cabinet Office and reached the ears of the Prime Minister, the Chief Whip, the Leader of the House, and so on. That was in 1961. The Prime Minister, however, has told us that not until later, in 1963, did he get an inkling of the truth. Why was the truth not disclosed?
  I now come to the point in the advertisement which makes me think and I hope that it will make others think, too. The advertisement states:
  "We must learn and learn fast the link between private sexual habits and public security risks."
  We discussed that in the Vassall case.
  "In the book Burgess and Maclean…speaking of how these two men were warned to flee our country, the authors say: 'And so it was not from the Foreign Office but from M.I.5 that the warning came, and it came not to Maclean but to Burgess…
  'The Third Man was a senior member of the service who has since left and won honours in another field'."
  No individual is named, but sufficient is said there to cause many of us who know a little more about the case to wonder what is happening now. The advertisement goes on to say:
  " 'He had been a close friend of Burgess, although he had not seen him for almost a year, and he was a homosexual…' "
  Again, in The Times this morning there was a report in the news column that Mr. Jordan, a convicted person, had seen Scotland Yard on Saturday last to discuss information which he had sent in a letter to the Prime Minister claiming that John Vassall had given him information when he was in Wormwood Scrubs Prison.
  Hon. Members may wonder what the connection is, but I think that there is something more that ought to be disclosed about our security services. Accepting that the Prime Minister is an honourable man and did not know anything about these things, I am not so sure that information was purposely withheld from the Prime Minister that would have been damaging to Mr. Profumo and his Government.

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  I remember very well during the war when, in 1940, the then Prime Minister was under severe attack from the Opposition, as, I imagine, the Prime Minister is today. Some hon. Members may have been present and heard it. There was no question then about how Mr. Chamberlain went. He went because his own party lacked that trust in him which Government supporters should have in their own Prime Minister.
  What I am saying to right hon. and hon. Members opposite is that in spite of a three-line whip, in spite of loyalty to their party, they ought not to try to hide their true views; and surely, after listening to the Prime Minister, their true views must be that there was a lack of proper handling of this matter by the Prime Minister and some of his colleagues. And they should act accordingly.
  Sir Cyril Osborne: Let us decide that for ourselves.
  Mr. Bellenger: I remember that in 1940, there were 43 Tory Members who voted with the Opposition because they believed that their Prime Minister had made a mistake and there were 80 more hon. Members who abstained from going into the Lobby in support of their Government.
  All I want to say tonight is this. Right hon. and hon. Members opposite should consider what they ought to do today and not merely obey a three-line Whip because it has been hinted to them that the Prime Minister may go at the right moment. What they should do is what the Tory Party did in 1940, when the Tory Party, or those who voted against their own Government, were absolutely right.
  6.17 p.m.
  Mr. Nigel Birch: In many organs of the Press and, to a certain extent, during the latter part of the speech of the Leader of the Opposition, there has been a suggestion that the whole moral health of the nation is at stake and is concerned in this debate. I do not believe that that is true. As far as the moral health of the nation can be affected by any human agency, it is affected by prophets and priests and not by politicians. But this certainly has been one of the best field days that the
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  self-righteous have had since Parnell was cited as co-respondent in O'Shea's divorce case. In all these miseries, the fact that so many people have found some genuine happiness is something to which, in all charity, we have no right to object.
  I must say that I view the activities of the editor of The Times with some distaste.
  Mr. E. L. Mallalieu: First-class stuff.
  Mr. Birch: He is a man about whom it could have been predicted from his early youth that he was bound to end up sooner or later on the staff of one of the Astor papers.
  Nor do I think that this debate is primarily concerned with the security aspect, although that, of course, is important. It was fully dealt with by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister and, for my part, I am perfectly prepared to accept everything that the Prime Minister said about security. I believe that what he said was right and true and I am not prepared to criticise my right hon. Friend in any way concerning the question of security.
  What seems to me to be the real issue is something much simpler and much narrower. The real issue seems to be whether it was right to accept Profumo's personal statement. There are two aspects here. There is, first, the moral aspect of accepting that part of the statement which Profumo himself subsequently denied and there is a second issue of whether the Prime Minister in this case acted with good sense and with competence.
  I will deal with these two issues in order. First, there is the question of accepting Profumo's statement. We know a deal more now about Profumo than we did at the time of the statement, but we have all known him pretty well for a number of years in this House. I must say that he never struck me as a man at all like a cloistered monk; and Miss Keeler was a professional prostitute.
  We have had a legal disquisition from my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Chertsey (Sir L. Heald) about the legal etiquette in all this matter, but as someone who does not understand the law, I simply approach it from the basis of what an ordinary person could or

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  would believe. Here one had an active, busy man and a professional prostitute. On his own admission, Profumo had a number of meetings with her, and, if we are to judge by the published statements, she is not a woman who would be intellectually stimulating. Is it really credible that the association had no sexual content? There seems to me to be a certain basic improbability about the proposition that their relationship was purely platonic. What are whores about? Yet Profumo's word was accepted. It was accepted from a colleague. Would that word have been accepted if Profumo had not been a colleague or even if he had been a political opponent? Everyone must, I think, make his own judgment about that.
  We were told that special consideration ought to have been given to Profumo because he was a colleague. It is certainly true that a Prime Minister owes to his subordinates all the help, comfort and protection that he can give them. But surely that help, that comfort and that protection must stop short of condoning a lie in a personal statement to this House.
  Then we are told, in many organs of the Press and in many speeches, that special weight ought to have been given to Profumo's words because he was a Privy Councillor and a Secretary of State. I am a Privy Councillor and I have been a Secretary of State, but when I sustained the burden of both offices I did not feel that any sea change had taken place in my personality. I remained what I was, what I had always been and what I am today; and I do not believe it reasonable to suppose that any sea change took place in Mr. Profumo's personality.
  He was not a man who was ever likely to tell the absolute truth in a tight corner, and at the time the statement was made he was in a very tight corner indeed. There are people—and it is to the credit of our poor, suffering humanity that it is so—who will tell the whole truth about themselves whatever the consequences may be. Of such are saints and martyrs, but most of us are not like that. Most people in a tight corner either prevaricate—if anvone is interested in prevarication they will find the locus classicus in the evidence given before the Bank Rate Tribunal by the Leader of the Opposition—or, as in this cane, they lie.
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  This lie was accepted. I have meditated very deeply on this, and though I have given some rather tough reasons for not accepting that Profumo's statement was credible, I have after deep consideration come to the conclusion that my right horn. Friend did absolutely genuinely believe it. I will give my reasons now for taking that view, and these reasons concern the competence and the good sense with which the affair was handled.
  Profumo on his own admission had been guilty of a very considerable indiscretion, for a Minister at any rate. He was not a particularly successful Minister. He had no great place in this House or in the country. I cannot really see that the Prime Minister was under any obligation whatever to retain his services, nor do I think that getting rid of Mr. Profumo would, in fact, have made the political situation any worse than it then was. On the other hand, to retain him entailed a colossal risk and a colossal gamble. The difficulties and dangers were obvious enough. The Press were in full cry. They were in possession of letters. They were hardly likely to have bought letters unless they had something of interest in them. Miss Keeler was pretty certain to turn up again, and if she did, editors were sure to make use of her literary talent. The dangers were enormous, and yet this colossal gamble was taken, and in this gamble, as it seems to me, the possible gain was negligible and the possible loss devastating.
  The conclusion that I draw from that is that the course adopted by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister could have been adopted only by someone who genuinely and completely believed the statements of Profumo, and therefore, I absolutely acquit my right hon. Friend of any sort of dishonour. On the other hand, on the question of competence and good sense I cannot think that the verdict can be favourable.
  What is to happen now? I cannot myself see at all that we can go on acting as if nothing had happened. We cannot just have business as usual. I myself feel that the time will come very soon when my right hon. Friend ought to make way for a much younger colleague. I feel that that ought to happen. I certainly will not quote at him the savage words of

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  Cromwell, but perhaps some of the words of Browning might be appropriate in his poem on "The Lost Leader", in which he wrote:
  "…let him never come back to us!
  There would be doubt, hesitation and pain.
  Forced praise on our part—the glimmer of twilight,
  Never glad confident morning again!"
  "Never glad confident morning again!"—so I hope that the change will not be too long delayed.
  Ahead of us we have a Division. We have the statement of my right hon. and noble Friend Lord Hailsham, in a personal assurance on television, that a Whip is not a summons to vote but a summons to attend. I call the Whips to witness that I at any rate have attended.
  6.30 p.m.
  Mr. George Wigg: I cannot hope to emulate the graceful oratory of the right hon. Member for Flint, West (Mr. Birch), but before I go on to deal with the part of the story with which I am concerned, perhaps I might be permitted to make an observation or two on his speech and the speeches of one or two other right hon. and hon. Members opposite.
  Two of my hon. Friends and I were reprimanded and criticised for using the privilege of this House for a declared purpose. All I did was to ask for an investigation and an inquiry. But today, when it suits the purpose of the Conservative Party, the privilege of this House can be used to describe a woman as a professional prostitute, and, in addition, we have Lord Hailsham, in the security of his great office and having the privilege of using the B.B.C., describing her as a woman of easy virtue. Let me tell the House, quite frankly, that I have not joined the movement for Moral Re-Armament. Neither am I going to wear a surplice, because if I did my puttees would soon show. Like the right hon. Member for Flint, West, I am what I am, and I shall remain so.
  I would not pretend for one moment to be a Christian. If some of the ideas of Christianity which we have heard from Lord Hailsham are representative, then I confess that I am a pagan, for the Christianity that I learned at my mother's knee taught me that it was something
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  which had to do with redemption and that there was not one Mary but two and that Jesus loved them both. To use this occasion or any other when the Tory Party is in a jam to pour moralising phrases, humbug and cant from their mouths is something that I cannot take. It gives me a queasy feeling in the stomach when I hear Lord Hailsham. Let me say, frankly, that if the moment ever comes when I see Lord Hailsham on one side of the road and John Profumo on the other, it is to John Profumo that I will go. I would prefer him, the sinner, to the sinister saint of Lord Hailsham's type pouring forth his smears, cant and humbug.
  How typical of the Tory Party! Lord Hailsham is put on to broadcast. He is a great actor. He seethes with moral indignation. He is the great champion of truth. He claims this to be a non-party matter—the object being to try to make out that we on this side of the House have played party politics. Then suddenly he is in a jam. For a split second he finds himself in exactly the same jam as John Profumo found himself. Someone asked him, "What about the three-line Whip?" He could have said, "You have caught me", but he did exactly the same as John Profumo did. He lied. There is not a right hon. or hon. Gentleman on either side of the House who accepts Lord Hailsham's interpretation of what a three-line Whip means. The three-line Whip is the final appeal to loyalty on party lines, and Lord Hailsham knows it. Whether I am in order or not, I call Lord Hailsham a lying humbug. [Hon. Members: "Hear, hear."]
  Straight from that shoulder, let us turn to another matter, one which has not been mentioned by anybody, not even in a newspaper, and that is the position of the House of Commons. I think that this is a most extraordinary situation. I asked the Leader of the House about the Home Secretary, but again in a corner, very smartly, the Leader of the House said I had not read HANSARD.
  Not read HANSARD indeed! I shall be haunted as long as I live by what appeared in HANSARD on 22nd March. It will be blazoned on my heart. Whether hon. Members believe me or not, I say that during the last weeks I have gone through the tortures

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  of the damned. Of course I read HANSARD. The Home Secretary was here at 1.30 a.m. so why not the Home Secretary? They had time to fetch a solicitor, yet today we have the right hon. and learned Member for Chertsey (Sir L. Heald) speaking as a learned counsel on behalf of John Profumo. For, of course, he cannot be here.
  If John Profumo had wanted to do so, he could have done what John Belcher did. He could have come here—and it would have been a manly thing to do—made his explanation and left, as John Belcher did. But, with the connivance of the Government, he applied for the Chiltern Hundreds, which is an honourable estate, and he was granted it so that he could get away and would not have to go through his ordeal. I do not blame him for that.
  Mr. Speaker, I came to you earlier today because I am again faced with a personal dilemma. I make no claim for myself. The Prime Minister asked for sympathy. I ask for none, because there is one simple thing which hon. Members know very well: that the Wigg family motto is "Tomorrow is also a day" and that anything slung at me will in due course, God willing, be slung back again. But what about the position of my hon. Friends the Members for Blackburn (Mrs. Castle) and Coventry, East (Mr. Crossman)? We made a statement in the House on the Consolidated Fund Bill. As far as I am concerned, that statement was made after much thought, after much care. I consulted a lawyer and was told that it was not actionable but that if I went outside the House I might, nevertheless, have to face an action for libel. With my modest resources I could not take this risk. All I asked the Home Secretary to do was deny or investigate.
  Now we know that Profumo's statement was drawn up between 1.30 and 5.0 a.m., with five other Ministers present, together with Profumo's lawyer. They produced between them the statement he made to this House on the morning of 22nd March. We are now told that this statement was approved by the Government. The Government must know, however incompetent they are, that, in the light of Mr. Speaker's Ruling of 3rd November, 1960, the Chair is involved because that state-
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  ment had to be approved by Mr. Speaker. They must have known then. Nevertheless, they produced that statement, and I ask right hon. and hon. Members to look at it again and remember that it was produced with the assistance of Profumo's own lawyer and the two Law Officers of the Crown.
  There are two statements contained in that statement, in the first and last paragraphs, which were a deliberate and calculated smear on my two hon. Friends. Twice, it was said that they had raised this under the protection of privilege. Why were such words put in? Was it because the Ministers had been engaged in an operation to find out the truth? Oh, no! They were engaged in shutting me up. That was the purpose of that personal statement by Profumo. That day I left here with black rage in my heart, because I knew what the facts were. I knew the truth, and I knew that, just as over the Kuwait operation, I had been trussed up and done again. If hon. Members doubt that, let them read the debate on 23rd November last and my statement to the House on 26th November.
  The mistake which John Profumo made—his only mistake—was the one which is unforgivable to the party opposite: he did not get away with it, he got found out. That is what is wrong. He ignored the warning given to him. Yet here we had the Solicitor-General—a junior Minister—telling a senior Minister what he should say to the House. I will not involve the Chair, so I only put the question and do not necessarily expect an answer. If you, Mr. Speaker, had known of the existence of the letter of Profumo to Miss Keeler and had known of the meetings down below, would you, Sir, as the servant of the House, have approved that statement on 22nd March?
  Members opposite must meet the charge of contempt of this House—a deliberate attempt to involve the Chair in a political action to defend themselves. This is a prima facie question of contempt. To me, there is no doubt about it. I am astonished that the Prime Minister, who has had such long service in this House, should not have been the first to defend it.
  We must remember that we in this House live by precedent. At the moment,

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  it is out of order for one hon. Member to say of another that he has lied. But unless the House of Commons passes judgment on this action, unless the Chair is absolved from the personal statements made by John Profumo, then twenty or thirty years hence we shall find the precedent quoted—that the House of Commons failed to condemn a calculated lie by a Minister of the Crown in circumstances which clearly involved other Ministers. Until this is cleared up by actions by the Government, their honour, whether they say so or not, remains impugned.
  I want to begin to tell my story, but before doing so I want to say a word to the Home Secretary. I was puzzled by him. I believe him to be an honourable and straightforward man, but on the night when I asked him, as senior Minister present, a question, he dodged it. If he had dodged it knowing of the inquiries which the Prime Minister had made, his honour would be involved, because the words he used that night made it appear as though he was sidestepping. I do not believe that he knew, but if he did not know, how can he remain a member of the Administration when the Prime Minister keeps this sort of knowledge to himself? I do not believe that the Home Secretary knew about these inquiries when he made the reply to me on the night of 21st March.
  The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Henry Brooke): What the hon. Member for Dudley (Mr. Wigg) is saying might seem to be inconsistent with something said by the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition. The right hon. Gentleman suggested that at that date, 21st-22nd March, certain reports were in my hands and provided knowledge which would cause me to doubt Mr. Profumo's statement. No such reports were in my hand at that date.
  Mr. H. Wilson: Where were they?
  Mr. Wigg: I shall not involve myself in a triangular controversy. If in what I have to say I impugn one man and tell the truth as I see it about him and if other right hon. or hon. Gentlemen are involved and I know the truth about them, I believe that it is my duty to tell the House. In my view the Home Secretary is an honourable and straightforward
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  man and he acted as he did that night because he did not know the facts.
  I now turn to Mr. Profumo. I have referred to Kuwait. This does not weigh very much with hon. Members, but it weighs considerably with me. It is the reason why I did not go to Mr. Profumo. I went to my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition, to whom I am greatly indebted for his kindness and consideration in very difficult matters indeed. He never attempted to interfere with my judgment. What I did I did on my own responsibility. I went to him on 10th March and told him the story as I then knew it and I told it in terms which, as far as I knew, were near certainty, not absolute certainty, but near certainty of what the situation has in fact turned out to be. I listened to and talked with him on many other occasions between 10th March and 21st March.
  I contemplated going to Mr. Profumo. Again, I took legal advice. I went to an old and wise and valued legal friend and told him the story. I asked him, "Should I go to this man and tell him what I know? Perhaps he does not know". I told him what had happened to me about Kuwait. He said, "In the circumstances, he will not thank you; if he did not tell you the truth about Kuwait, he will not do anything different on this occasion".
  Another right hon. Gentleman was involved. I heard stories about him and so I went to the hon. Member for Maldon (Mr. B. Harrison) and I told him that I had heard stories which involved the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Labour. Let me hasten to add that I did not do it in any way of going to him and asking, "Is this right? Is this true or not true?" I went to him as an old friend and I asked, "Will you tell John Hare what I have heard?" He did so, and the right hon. Gentleman sent me a message to say that it was not true. The sum total of the story added up to the effect that the car of the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Labour had been used by Miss Keeler and Mr. Profumo.
  A week ago last Friday, the hon. Member for Maldon telephoned me again and told me that he was worried and anxious because the Minister of Labour had been in touch with him to say that his recollection was wrong and that the car had been used. This was a very anxious business

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  indeed. Later in the morning, the right hon. Gentleman telephoned me himself and said that his recollection was wrong. Of course, I unhesitatingly accepted what he said and when later last week I heard other stories, I did what I thought was right and, after making inquiries, I telephoned the hon. Member for Maldon, as I knew the right hon. Gentleman was ill. I said to him that I believed that the Minister of Labour was anxious and worried and that I would like him to tell the right hon. Gentleman that I intended to say in the House that his action was perfectly honourable and that what happened was no more than a slip of memory. Having heard those rumours, or at least some of them, I have taken the earliest opportunity to clear the right hon. Gentleman.
  I now turn to some other matters. My hon. and right hon. Friends have been smeared as though this was a party point, and so I shall explain my poistion. I made a firm resolve in this affair that if any matters ever came to my notice involving action by the police authorities, my duty was to go to the police. A week ago last Sunday, I heard that negotiations had been going on with a great newspaper company to purchase the story of Dr. Ward's life story for a colossal sum of money running into many many thousands of £s and that Dr. Ward on the eve of his arrest had deposited a considerable number of documents and photographs of a particular kind in the safe of that newspaper company. I went straight away to Scotland Yard and told them the facts.
  Earlier, there was another character in this case whose name I shall not mention because he is awaiting trial. Here, again, I did not trust the Secretary of State for War. I went to the Secretary of State for Air and the Under-Secretary of State for War and I told them. So far as it is humanly possible, from the time I went to my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition and when I made my statement in the House and from my discussions with the hon. Member for Maldon and, through him, with the Minister of Labour and other hon. Members I have tried to keep my hands absolutely clean.
  I have approached this problem from the beginning not as a moral problem, but as a problem of security as part of
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  defence. This is what I want to say again to the Prime Minister in relation to the late Secretary of State for War. Who chose him? Who put him into that job? He was put into that job by the Prime Minister to carry out a specific task, a task which the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Flint, West, or the hon. Member for Maldon, or other hon. Members who know anything about defenceand who care for the defence of this country, would not have carried out. What he had to do was to get 165,000 men by 1st January, and it did not matter two pence how he did it. What he did was to lower standards and he lowered the rejection rate from 70 per cent. to 40 per cent. I do not say that he did not care anything about the Army, but it was not as much as I do, or he would not have done it.
  This is not the first occasion when the Government have lied about defence. The whole defence policy has been based on a lie. Viscount Head did not remain as Minister of Defence because he knew that jolly well, as he said in the House. He refused to cook the books. There is also the whole Suez operation. Has the right hon. and learned Member for Wirral (Mr. Selwyn Lloyd) ever told the House the full truth of the negotiations which went on over Suez? He knows very well that he has not. What angered President Eisenhower was that the Americans broke our code and found that our Government had been lying.
  The Secretary of State for War was being asked to carry out a political job and he tried to do once too often what he had often done before—he tried to get away with it regardless of truth. In the early part of January, it was perfectly clear, as plain as a pikestaff, that the Secretary of State for War had been meeting Miss Keeler on a number of occasions. There is no doubt that he had met her on 9th August, 1961. One of the things that flabbergasted me on that Friday morning was the admission that he had met her six times. If he had met Miss Keeler six times by accident, the laws of probability being what they are, obviously he must have gone to Dr. Ward's flat at least twenty times. Clearly he had not met this girl by accident on the only six occasions when she happened to be there. He had gone there regularly.

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  It is the weakness of the Prime Minister's case that he seizes any point that he can. In my memorandum I put down exactly what Dr. Ward said to me. On the question of impropriety, Dr. Ward used the words "As far as I know"—those are the words in my memorandum—but he went on to say that he was not there all the time so he did not know, but by the time that Dr. Ward came to see me the question of any impropriety had faded from my mind. What loomed in my mind was the position of Commander Ivanov and the fact that the former Secretary of State for War had indulged in the chancy business of lying to this House.
  We heard the interesting revelation about blackmail. There are three gentlemen—I shall not particularise because Dr. Ward's case is sub Jud ice—actively connected with blackmail on an international scale who got out of London last weekend as quickly as they could when they knew that Dr. Ward had been arrested, so we are dealing with something that is pretty hot, to put it mildly.
  The idea that at that stage Mr. Profumo could get away with it was a desperate gamble. From what he knew of Ward by this time, he knew pretty well that he was going to be blackmailed. I asked Ward when he last saw Profumo. He said that he had met him at the Dorchester three weeks before, and when he mentioned Miss Keeler, Mr. Profumo said, "Miss Keeler? I do not know her. Who is she?" Then Ward told him, "If you do not know, you should go and ask M.I.5. They will tell you who Miss Keeler is". The idea that at that stage Ivanov and Profumo were no security risks in the sense that they had not laid themselves open to blackmail is nonsense.
  This is the thing that interested me above all else. Here was Commander Ivanov, a master of the English language, dressing well, going around in a flash car, going to nightclub after nightclub, and, from direct evidence supplied to the Prime Minister, becoming a very good bridge player indeed. To play in such circumstances that he was bound to lose, and that his losses would be £20 to £50 a night, was common. I do not know much about the Soviet Union, and less about the Soviet Embassy, but I do not
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  believe that their petty cash would stand such losses every night unless they got something for it. The idea that Commander Ivanov was going round mixing with Dr. Ward and his friends merely for the sake of their company seemed fantastic.
  When Dr. Ward talked to me, he did not talk only about Cuba, but about the part that Commander Ivanov had played at the time of Berlin, and he talked to me in the most intimate terms on a political basis. Indeed, at one stage I wondered whether Dr. Ward himself was a Communist and whether he had caught any of the jargon. I came to the conclusion that that was not so.
  This man knew his way around London and around the joints, but I was certain that he had not told me the whole truth, and I was struck this afternoon with one point made by the Prime Minister. He said that he was told for the first time on 1st February. But what had happened two days before? Commander Ivanov left the country two days before that, and, whatever Dr. Ward may say, he was seeing Commander Ivanov up to within a few days of his leaving this country, so it is important to appreciate that the Prime Minister realised the position one day, and that two days before that the one man who could put his hands on what was happening had gone. He had vanished from the scene.
  From that time onwards—and this is what makes it so inexplicable—the Government did not realise that it became inevitable that the truth would emerge. I shall not go over all the ground that has been covered by my right hon. Friend or by the Prime Minister. What I am concerned about is what is going to happen in the future. This is the important thing. As the right hon. Gentleman said, things are never going to be quite the same again, and in some way somebody has to reconstitute the Army's faith in the political head of the Army. This is a not unimportant task, but the most important task of all is that somebody has to carry out a pretty drastic reconstruction of our security services. Despite the large sums of money which are spent, I believe that one of the reasons why Ward was not placed under active surveillance—and the same applies to Commander Ivanov, for that matter—is that the intelligence service is

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  kept short of manpower. It is not paid enough. It is a part-time job of the Prime Minister.
  I do not believe that the Prime Minister, with his long history, and with his long record of public service to this country, has been engaged in any dishonourable action at all, but I believe that the story he has told this afternoon is a record of incompetence that requires that he should resign, and the whole of his Administration with him.
  6.53 p.m.
  Sir Richard Glyn: I listened with great interest to the speech of the hon. Member for Dudley (Mr. Wigg). He ended on a note which will be echoed by hon. Members on both sides of the House. He said that he could not believe that my right hon. Friend had been personally involved in any impropriety or disgraceful conduct of any kind.
  Earlier the hon. Gentleman had been very frank about the information which he had obtained from time to time from Dr. Ward, and he told us that he had been informed by Dr. Ward that as far as he, Dr. Ward, was aware, there had been no impropriety between the late Secretary of State for War and Miss Keeler. This, I think, must have been the report, or been included in the report, which was mentioned by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister in his opening speech, and this information must undoubtedly have played a part in enabling the late Secretary of State for War to convince so many experienced people that he was in fact not guilty of any impropriety during his association with Miss Keeler.
  My right hon. Friend the Member for Flint, West (Mr. Birch) said that it was incredible that they should have believed the late Secretary of State for War on this point because, he said, Mr. Profumo was unlikely to be meeting what he described as a prostitute for social purposes. It is right to point out, however, that this comment is made with the full knowledge of hindsight. There were few people in the country and very few people in this House—and I believe that there was no one in the Government—who, on 22nd March of this year, were aware that Miss Keeler could have been properly described in this way. It is easy to apply the knowledge that we have now to the situation that obtained then, but it is not
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  altogether just to condemn people because they did not know facts which were not then available to them.
  A certain amount has been said by the hon. Member for Dudley and others about the fact that there is a three-line Whip on the Conservative side tonight. I want to make it clear that I am quite confident that I speak not only as the representative of the people of North Dorset but for the great majority of the Tory Party throughout the country when I declare that if, at the end of this debate, I were left in any doubt whatever as to the integrity and honesty of my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister at every stage of this affair, I should no longer be able to remain a member of a party of which he was the leader.
  With regard to the Whip, I go further, and say that if, on the facts disclosed today, when properly considered in the light of the situation then obtaining, my right hon. Friend is shown to have been guilty of recklessness or even of negligence on an important matter of security, I, personally, would be quite unable to support the Government in the Lobby this evening. The decision of the House tonight—and it is a decision of great importance—must be based not on hindsight or on guesses about what may become known in the future but on the facts and evidence available to the Government at the relevant times and on the facts and evidence which are before the House today.
  During the 12 days that have passed since the resignation of the late Secretary of State for War a series of sensational allegations have been published. Their cumulative effect has been to create more anxiety amongst the public than has been created in respect of any comparable episode in living memory. I agree that aspects of our security service are open to criticism, but I believe that what The Times newspaper describes as the moral issue is the more important one, and that it will be this issue, more than any point of security, which will finally determine the views of the majority of hon. Members at the conclusion of the debate.
  This is a Supply day, and the precise terms of the debate are decided at the option of the Opposition. They chose the question of security, with special

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  reference to the resignation of the Secretary of State for War. I say at once that I agree with the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition and other hon. Members when they say that there was a security risk throughout the period when Miss Keeler was entertaining both the Secretary of State for War and the Russian naval attaché. I do not attempt to disguise that fact.
  The Leader of the Opposition said that there was a standing condition of security risk as long as the Secretary of State for War associated with Dr. Ward, Miss Keeler and Ivanov. He described this as a security quadrilateral. I do not complain of that description. Whether or not Miss Keeler was ever asked for secret information by her Russian lover does not matter; there was a security risk as long as these two men shared Miss Keeler's favours, and as long as Dr. Ward was closely involved in the matter. This makes it extremely important to ascertain when this security risk period began and ended.
  One of the difficulties is that we must view with great care the statements which have been made by the parties concerned, and not readily believe them unless they are, to some extent at least, corroborated by outside evidence. Many of the parties have made more than one statement, and in some cases their statements have been rather conflicting. It seems clear, however, that the security period began in July, 1961. That seems to be well established. The parties met at a party at Cliveden.
  This has been the subject of a number of articles in the Press, thoroughly described and reasonably well authenticated. It is less easy to be sure, however, of the precise date at which this quadrilateral broke up. First, we had the date of December, 1961, given for the ending of the association between Miss Keeler and the late Secretary of State for War. I have noticed, however, that there has been one suggestion that it lasted longer. I shall deal with that point in a minute.
  It is interesting to note that the former Secretary of State for War had been warned against Dr. Ward. This has been agreed by hon. Members on both sides of the House. Because of this it is interesting to know what Miss Keeler said, as published very fully in the News of the
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  World on the 9th of this month. According to her she was staying in Dr. Ward's flat when her association with the former Secretary of State for War broke up. She said,
  "He wanted me to leave Ward's flat. I would not go. He said he would not see me if I did not leave. I told him he must make his choice."
  She then said that she got out of the car and slammed the door, and added that she never met him again.
  We know from evidence given in the Old Bailey in another case that Miss Keeler left Dr. Ward's flat comparatively early in 1962 and went to live in Isle-worth, with a Mr. Edgecombe, who was involved in the case in December, 1962, when she had left him and was sharing a flat with a Miss Rice-Davies, outside the door of which he discharged a revolver. If Miss Keeler is correct in saying that this association stopped while she was still in Dr. Ward's flat it is clear that it stopped either at the end of 1961 or very early in 1962.
  This has been accepted by a number of newspapers. In its leading article yesterday the Observer particularly referred to the association between these two as being of only a few months' duration. If that is correct, the quadrilateral had a short existence, from July until December, 1961, when it appears that the first one broke away.
  It has been said—there are conflicting stories about this—that Miss Keeler was asked to get information from the late Secretary of State for War in December, 1962, at the time of the Cuban crisis. The fact that she was so asked would not absolutely prove that she was still seeing the late Secretary of State for War, but if that story be true it entirely conflicts with her statement that she never saw him again after the time when she slammed the car door outside Dr. Ward's flat, and when she refused to leave that flat. This is a matter upon which every hon. Member must form his own conclusion.
  Mr. K. Zilliacus: Did not the Secretary of State for War remain a security risk even after the end of this association, because of his liability to blackmail?
  Sir Richard Glyn: That is another point that I shall be dealing with. I was seeking to establish the dates first

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  of all. I could not agree more with the hon. Member about the blackmail point.
  From the bulk of the evidence that has been produced so far it would seem that this quadrilateral began to break up at the end of 1961, although it is clear that Ivanov and Ward continued to associate for a considerably longer time—perhaps, as the hon. Member for Dudley said, right up till Ivanov left the country. I have no information about that. But, having said this, we should ask whether our security service was at fault or was guilty of negligence in not discovering the liaison between the late Secretary of State for War and Miss Keeler during the few months it lasted.
  It took place in Dr. Ward's house. Perhaps it was the visits of the late Secretary of State for War to that house to see Miss Keeler which resulted in his being warned by the security service that Ward himself was a security risk. It is not suggested by anyone now that anybody warned him that Miss Keeler was a security risk, because at that stage she was not known to the security service. Indeed, she was known hardly to anyone outside that circle.
  In February of this year, a newspaper quite properly informed the Government of the rumours which were then becoming widely known. It is important to realise that this was a long time after the quadrilateral had broken up and the period of security risk had finished.
  It is clear that from the first time he was confronted with them, the former Secretary of State entirely denied the allegations. He denied every word of them, and in those circumstances one might ask, what could the security service do? It could make sure whether or not he was still conducting a liaison with Miss Keeler. It appears that he was not and on this I suppose there would have been a negative report. They could not really ascertain what had happened in the dim and distant ages. Had the security service been alerted 15 months before while the liaison was in full swing it would have been entirely different.
  Mr. William Shepherd: May I ask whether my hon. Friend
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  knows that at the end of October I saw all the parties in this case at the flat of Dr. Ward, and Miss Keeler was certainly there at that time, and that I reported the matter immediately to security so that they did know of its existence?
  Sir Richard Glyn: Which October?
  Mr. Shepherd: October, 1962.
  Sir Richard Glyn: I was saying that in October, 1962, we know that there was the story that she was asked to get information from the then Secretary of State for War. I said that there was no suggestion that the liaison was still going on. Her direct statement agrees with his, that it had long since ceased.
  There is nothing to prevent anyone going to an old "flame" and perhaps trying to ask for something. The question is whether the liaison was continuing, and the evidence is that it was not. The evidence so far published definitely suggests—I refer again to the leading article in the Observer—that it was a liaison of very short duration indeed. If a security report on what had been happening in the autumn of 1961 could have been prepared and given to the Government, it is clear that the misleading statement of 22nd March would never have been made. It could not have been made. The Government would have been in a different and an altogether stronger position. I think that the Leader of the Opposition was absolutely right in saying that it is very difficult to find out what happened a long time ago. He said that we should never be able to find out what was happening in the autumn of 1961—not precisely.
  I suggest that the same thing applied a few months ago when the security people were alerted by a newspaper intervention. There was no means in February of this year of finding out what had been happening in the autumn of two years before. But, as I have said, if security could have put in a report, it would have made the entire difference.
  We come to the events of 21st March which have been referred to a number of times. We can read the HANSARD report carefully. Particular references were made—I do not complain about them; it was right that they should have been made—to the rumours linking the then Secretary

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  of State with Miss Keeler. We can refresh our memories from HANSARD. Every one of these rumours referred to a current matter. The word "liaison" was not mentioned. The suggestion was of a current scandal—that he had helped her to disappear. Whether he did or not we may never know. There is no evidence of it, at least none has been published. But there were allegations of a current scandal, not of an ancient passion long since expired, 15 or 16 months before. They were allegations, I do not blame anybody, of things being wrong at that time—
  Mr. Charles Pannell: I find myself in this difficulty, that Mr. Profumo, in his statement, told an obvious, calculated and repeated lie. His statement is tarnished, and therefore one is still not satisfied whether he had any part or not in spiriting Miss Keeler away. Surely this is a current scandal?
  Sir Richard Glyn: Yes, but it was a current scandal about which security and other people concerned were quite unable to discover any evidence. It would, of course, have been a criminal offence to have conspired to conceal a witness, and had he done so, the police would unquestionably have followed it up, had there been any evidence to follow up. But I say that these were rumours of current scandals about which no evidence has been produced.
  The last allegations were made, a few minutes before midnight, and only about five hours later a meeting was held between senior Ministers, the then Secretary of State and his solicitor. I will not go into that meeting; it has been referred to a number of times. But I put the point that the Government did take every step they reasonably could to ensure that the statement when made was comprehensive and accurate. This was the point. His solicitor was there to look after his interests and the Ministers were there to make sure that it was a comprehensive statement and accurate so far as they could possibly tell. There really was no reason to doubt its veracity.
  We had a number of rumours of scandalous conduct. But as the hon. Member for Dudley pointed out, Mr. Ward said firmly that up to that point there was no impropriety so far as he knew. [Hon. Members: "No."] This is what
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  the hon. Member for Dudley told the House. I wrote it down when he said it. This is what my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister told the House, and he was not challenged. The hon. Member for Dudley said it and he was not challenged. I am repeating faithfully what they said. I have no personal knowledge. I am simply quoting what they said. And so I think at this time there was no reason why senior Ministers should have doubted what their colleague told them—a story he had repeated many times before and which he stood by until the end.
  This is the point. It would seem unbelievable in March of this year that this considered, prepared statement should contain a calculated untruth. There may be hon. Members who re member that they had doubts about it at the time. But I am sure that I speak for the majority of hon. Members on this side of the House when I say that when we heard or read that statement we were absolutely, finally and completely convinced—
  Viscount Lambton: Not every hon. Member was convinced. I myself expressed complete disbelief in the statement.
  Sir Richard Glyn: The noble Lord is perhaps not entirely typical of hon. Members on this side of the House.
  I say at once that I do not believe that there has been any other occasion when an hon. Member of this House, being a Minister of the Crown and a Privy Councillor, has made a personal statement to the House with the premeditated intention of misleading the House by a carefully worded falsehood. It is this which seemed unbelievable. His association with that woman was sordid and disgraceful, but in my view his deception of the House was much more so. It was an act in direct conflict with our traditional standards of public life. He has paid a heavy penalty for his misdeeds. He has brought ruin to himself and disaster to his unfortunate family for whom the House will feel extremely sorry. But the stain left on our national institutions will not lightly be erased.
  The question—this is the question which will have to be resolved tonight—is, was my right hon. Friend the Prime

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  Minister in any way a party to this fraudulent statement?
  Mr. Scholefield Allen: That is not the question.
  Sir Richard Glyn: That is the question. Was he a party? If it is agreed that he was not, let that be firmly known by our vote at the end of this debate. The House knows that this statement had been prepared by a group of senior Ministers who are of the highest integrity and very experienced, and it was in the particular circumstances of the case that the then Secretary of State was able to deceive his own solicitor and all the Ministers. Because of his assurances each of them eventually became convinced that he was telling the truth in his protestations. They accepted his word that he was innocent.
  In these circumstances, I cannot accept that my right hon. Friend was adversely affected in any way, either directly or indirectly, by that untruthful sentence in the statement made that day. In the short time available since the charges were brought the night before, everything possible had been done by the Government to check the truth of the statement. Had my right hon. Friend had the slightest inkling that the statement was not strictly correct, he would have acted very differently.
  Mr. William Ross: How can the hon. Member for Dorset, North (Sir Richard Glyn) say that the Ministers made every effort to check the truth of the statement? We have been told by the Prime Minister that, although it had not been reported to him, the police had already reported—I think the Prime Minister said on 26th January—that Mr. Ward had asked Miss Keeler to try to get information. That fact was available to the police and to the security service. Surely, if every effort had been made to check, this would have come out. Then we have had the statement of the hon. Member for Cheadle (Mr. W. Shepherd) that he, a back bencher, knew that this liaison or some connection still remained in October, 1962, and he reported it to the security service.
  Sir Richard Glyn: None of these matters had been reported to my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister or the other senior Ministers—
  Mr. Ross rose—
  Sir Richard Glyn: No, I must answer the point. I shall then consider whether or not I shall give way again. It is said that everything was known to the police, but how was everything known? Hon. Members say that everything which is known to the police was available at this meeting of senior Ministers which we know happened—as it had to happen—at 5 o'clock in the morning, and at very short notice. There was no suggestion that every report on everyone concerned that was known to the police could be made available in that short time. There was no suggestion that it could have been made known or that the Home Secretary knew all the circumstances of that police report, even if he had had time to call for it.
  In the circumstances in which this was done it was out of the question for further information to be obtained. What the Ministers had got was a full report from the security service on this case. We know that. The report contained conflicting statements from different people and in the circumstances the Secretary of State, with his firm, resolute and untruthful denials was able to persuade the group of Ministers that he was right and the rumours were wrong. There was nothing more than rumour.
  Mr. Ross rose—
  Sir Richard Glyn: I must get on with my speech. No doubt the hon. Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Ross) will succeed in catching Mr. Speaker's eye later. Others wish to speak and I do not want to detain the House for too long.
  It has been suggested that there was a security risk in allowing the former Secretary of State for War to remain in office in view of the mass of rumours and reports, although I point out that these began to circulate long after the time when there was any evidence at all of a current security risk, indeed just after the Russian officer concerned had left the country.
  Can it be said that there was an actual security risk—it is very easy when looking back with the full knowledge of hindsight—inthe fact that the then Secretary of State had formerly kept a mistress? If this constituted a security risk it certainly was not the first of its kind. Can it be said that, because his former

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  mistress had shared her favours with others, including a Russian, this was a security risk? Surely this is a possibility inherent in any such liaison? The basic difference between a liaison and a marriage is that both parties in a liaison are likely to be unfaithful to each other. What man who keeps a mistress can be sure whom she entertains in his absence?
  Any politician who has ever kept a mistress is liable to blackmail in this regard. This is the point which has been raised. It applies either during or after the liaison and applies to every such case irrespective of the apparent discretion or otherwise of the mistress involved. II could be argued that any politician who has ever at any time kept a mistress is too great a security risk to hold office, but that would have denied this country many prominent leaders in the past. After all, it was the Duke of Wellington who said, "Publish and be damned."
  Mr. Charles Loughlin: On this question of mistresses, surely there is just a subtle difference between a mistress in the accepted term and a dirty little prostitute?
  Sir Richard Glyn: That, of course, is a matter which the hon. Member must decide for himself. There might be occasions where the same lady was referred to by both terms by different people.
  I am satisfied on the facts presented so far in this debate that there is no case against my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, no case of dishonesty nor any charge against his integrity and no evidence of neglect—[Hon. Members: "Oh."]—or of negligence in regard to the Prime Minister's handling of security. I am perfectly satisfied that no charge has been made out against him on the facts now before the House.
  7.25 p.m.
  Mr. R. H. S. Crossman: The speech to which we have just listened bore one resemblance to that of the Prime Minister in that both were coloured by a pleasing hopefulness about security. "We are all nice, honourable men." We are back in the atmosphere of the last Vassall debate when we had exactly the same kind of defence. We were told that if we wanted to be free
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  men we had to allow things to go on and no one can ever be blamed under a Tory Government if anything in security goes wrong. The people of this country found that difficult to swallow last time over the Vassall case. This time they find it even more difficult to swallow, as I hope to prove.
  I had been thinking about this debate for many days, and I had formulated a number of questions to put to the Prime Minister. I thank him for one thing. Four of the six questions I wanted to put he has fully answered, but in answering them he has raised much graver questions than I originally intended to ask, so one must prosecute the interrogation. Looking back to the debate on 21st/22nd March, I was surprised to find how grateful the Government were to myself and my hon. Friends the Member for Dudley (Mr. Wigg) and the Member for Blackburn (Mrs. Castle). We did not then get the impression that the Government were grateful, but they now tell me it was what they were waiting for. Indeed, one might have expected one of the Tories to do it for them.
  Why was the Prime Minister so anxious for us to do what we did? Parts of his speech were of a very pleasant, rather plaintive kind of candour. He made it quite clear that all he wanted was an opportunity to clap on a threat of libel so that no one could print the stories in the Press. This was what was required, a statement here which would enable the five right hon. Gentlemen opposite to gather round Mr. Profumo and with him draft a denial with a threat of legal action which would stifle the rumours. I do not criticise but record that this in fact was what the Prime Minister wanted. He wanted to stifle the rumours. He knew that the Press had these stories in its coffers. He knew the letters were there. There was only one hope. It was to have a situation in which no one would dare to publish them.
  The way to get that situation in Britain is for a Minister to come to the House and say, "This is not true, and I threaten to take legal action if you say it any more". Immediately it was extremely effective. It was, in fact, impossible to say any more. The hon. Member for Dorset, North (Sir Richard Glyn) meets different Tories from those I meet. I did

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  not meet many Tories who after Mr. Profumo's statement, to put it mildly, took it at face value. Quite a number of his colleagues shared my certainty that it was a lie but a number felt that we should never be able to find out. The chance would not come.
  It was only the investigations, the intrepid investigations, of my hon. Friend the Member for Dudley and the building up of the case which has now broken open the statement. But, as it looked at the time, his statement would have finally prevented anything further being said. So do not let us be too noble about the Prime Minister's talk of "not doing an injustice" to Mr. Profumo. As the Prime Minister said, he asked him to resign. The Prime Minister told us that he told him, "Your resignation might help you but it would not help me." I knew what he meant.
  Mr. Ronald Bell: The hon. Member is misrepresenting what my right hon. Friend said. I think that my right hon. Friend was referring to my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Hillhead (Mr. Galbraith).
  Mr. Crossman: I do not think so, but I am glad to accept that. We will read what the Prime Minister said in tomorrow's Official Report. It was my impression that I was right in my first comments and that the aim was to elicit a position where a threat could be made against anyone in the courts who continued to say these things or who dared to print articles which had already been prepared and which had been eagerly bought and competed for by two newspapers. That was the object, and it looked at the time that it might possibly succeed.
  I agree with the hon. Member for Dorset, North in that it would be silly to go over the whole issue of 1961 and 1962 and try to allot praise and blame on the security authorities and to discuss whether or not one should have a security system large enough to detect a Minister during the few weeks of a fleeting affair. That is something we need not discuss here right now. It would be difficult to do so, and in any case we have to consider not an affair of 1961 or 1962 but the conduct of the Government during the period when the affair suddenly came into the open again owing to a shooting.
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  All we are doing tonight is to investigate, stage by stage, whether the way the Prime Minister handled this affair, from 29th January when the security services first reported until the resignation of Mr. Profumo, was honourable and competent. I think that it was honourable, but was it competent? It was not only not competent but it was a ghastly degree of shifting, indecisive incompetence. For this reason, I wish to ask a number of questions arising out of the debate so far.
  My first question concerns D notices. A D notice is put on by the Ministry of Defence—by an organisation called, I think, The Services, Press and Broadcasting Committee, of which the head is normally Admiral Thompson, although I gather that Colonel Lohan was in charge last January or February. It is stated in Fleet Street by people I respect that they have heard that an effort was made in January or February to get a D notice issued about Ivanov. The man who did this was either Profumo or someone working for him. The effort was unsuccessful and the Committee refused to do it. However, this question must be answered. Was any effort made to get a D notice put on the subject of Ivanov? This matter needs to be cleared up, because if it were true that such an effort was made then this is further evidence of neglect on the part of the Prime Minister when he looked back and began to suspect something about Mr. Profumo.
  My second question is this. The Prime Minister made a fascinating revelation about his relations with the Press. The man who used to run the Tory Party machine is now in the journalistic world; the managing director or high official of the News of the World. Remember, it was the News of the World and that newspaper's intelligence department which provided the Prime Minister with his first warning and information about the whole affair. I suppose that it was natural—a friendly act by a Tory Party worker—to feel that he was not only there to publish things but to try to help the Government by informing them of what the News of the World had in its possession. We now know just what the News of the World and the Sunday Pictorial had in their possession and for which they were competing for publication purposes. We

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  know it because we have read the various versions in the last couple of weeks, including the whole story that was current on both sides of the House. We have read this in all its detail.
  This shows that Mr. Mark Chapman Walker knew well all about it. He had seen the text of the letter and, presumably, he told the Prime Minister that the letter existed. Did the Prime Minister ask him to let him have a look at it? Is it not an extraordinary thing that when told that such a letter exists the right hon. Gentleman should not ask to see it? Or was the letter not there—although it was in the offices of the News of the World and the Sunday Pictorial? If it was there, does there not seem a strange lack of curiosity on the part of the Prime Minister, that he should not want to look at a letter written by his Secretary of State for War and beginning "Darling"? considering a liaison with a Russian agent Why did the Prime Minister not bother to ask his journalist friend to let him have a look at the letter? This indeed seems a strange beginning to an investigation.
  Mr. W. R. Rees-Davies: Is it not a fact that the letter about which he is speaking was in the possession of the Sunday Pictorial? If there was any truth in, can the hon. Member say why the Sunday Pictorial did not report the fact?
  Mr. Crossman: The answer, I think, is that the letter was available to both of these great newspapers, who were both keenly competing to publish it. As I have tried to show, a lot of people outside those newspapers knew something about it.
  In this connection, I will now deal with the Sunday Pictorial. The three of us had something at stake. We had been accused in a personal statement of spreading rumours under the shield of privilege. I was interested to read the week before last in the Sunday Mirror that it had in its possession [Interruption]. It is significant that it changed its name at that time; that may be one reason it was a little coy about these things. The Sunday Mirror stated on 3rdApril-after the thing had become a political matter of the gravest moment—that the
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  editor had decided that in all the circumstances the prudent and fair course would be to arrange for Mr. Profumo's letter to be returned to Mr. Profumo. That was very sporting.
  On that day—in the offices of Mr. Nevil-Henle, Dr. Ward's solicitor, and in the presence of the assistant editor of the Sunday Mirror—the Sunday Pictorial as it was then called—the letter was handed over. It was later confirmed that a letter has been sent thanking the editor for the return of the document. I agree with the statement of Lord Francis Williams in the New Statesman of 14th June last in which he stated:
  "Not to have published this letter at the time Profumo made his first personal statement in the Commons, thus forcing the real issue, the security issue, into the open seems to me to be a dereliction of journalistic responsibility."
  This is a view with which I agree. Having said that, I must ask one or two further questions of the Prime Minister concerning his conduct over the letter. If there was a dereliction of journalistic duty regarding its not being published, there was a dereliction of Prime Ministerial responsibility in that he did not seek to see the letter for himself but that he merely said, in effect, "We are bound to trust old Jack Profumo in what he says." This makes me suspect whether the Prime Minister was very keen on checking Mr. Profumo's affairs.
  I appreciate the feeling that Mr. Profumo was one of the right hon. Gentleman's colleagues. However, when grave matters of national security are at stake, when a colleague gets into a mess of this kind and is having a relationship with a woman, it is as much a dereliction of responsibility not to ask Mr. Mark Chapman Walker to see the letter as it was for the Sunday Pictorial not to publish it.
  On both sides there was a dereliction of duty. If that letter had then been published the whole situation would have looked very different indeed, and there would have been an overwhelming case for the demand that my hon. Friend and I were making for a Select Committee. All we were saying then was, "This political crisis will grow and fester underground. Deal with it while it is early enough—put it before a Select Committee." That was the case we were making that night, and had that letter been published after we had made that case and

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  Mr. Profumo had denied it there would have immediately been a prima facie case and we might have found rather more careful investigations being undertaken.
  I want to ask some questions about those investigations, and I want the Leader of the House to reply to those questions perfectly categorically. First, how often was Miss Keeler interrogated, either before 22nd March or after 22nd March, by the Cabinet, or by people working for the Cabinet, in order to test her story? Was there any interrogation of the girl? Secondly, how often was Mr. Ward interrogated? Again, I want to be fair. One tends, of course, to want to believe Mr. Profumo, but when these stories are bruited and these people are about, surely a Premier must make sure that the charges are investigated and that the people are cross-examined.
  But, of course, I had forgotten—the girl had disappeared by then. That is very odd, now that we know that the security report came in at the end of January. I must say that one had thought until then that it was just a chief witness who had disappeared. But now we know the chief witness was also known by security to be involved in a scandal affecting a Minister. In an extraordinary way, the girl just disappeared, and after the Prime Minister's account there is more to investigate as to how that came about and why real care was not taken to ensure her presence in the country. She was required for two matters; one was the particular case of the shooting, but she was also wanted to help in investigating the Profumo charge.
  But we here have just one of those little gaps. It just happened that she went. I want to know a little more about whether, when she got back, the investigation took place of Miss Keeler and Mr. Ward. Many other people talked to this girl and her man. Many others investigated the case and formed their opinion of their characters and whether or not they could be relied on. My hon. Friend the Member for Dudley investigated Mr. Ward. The only people who do not seem to have investigated were the six people who sat round drafting the letter. They did not investigate because they were busy drafting a statement designed to suppress further publication. Their minds were not on
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  the investigation of their colleague, which was their duty, however unpleasant it might be.
  We should not be too sentimental. I was a little shocked by that part of the Prime Minister's speech in which he told us why he did not talk to Profumo himself. I do not want to be unfair, but my impression was that he did not do so because it would have made his personal relations with his Secretary of State for War impossible—so he had to leave it to the Chief Whip. That is a very clear indication of what Chief Whips are for. They are for Premiers to avoid having impossible personal relations.
  The Prime Minister was very human: he was really avoiding action that would get below the surface. How easy and tempting in life it is to do that. How often in private life we are faced with a situation in which we do not want to know the truth. We do not want to change our conviction that something unpleasant is not true, so we do not ask the questions, we do not collect the evidence. We all commit this fault, but if one commits it as a Prime Minister one commits a fault that is fatal in that particular job.
  I was very glad that my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition said what he did about Lord Attlee as Prime Minister. One of the virtues of Attlee as Prime Minister was that in this kind of thing he was utterly unsentimental. There was no idea that one should be soft, that one would not do it oneself, or leave it to the Chief Whip, or put it off until next week. It Attlee had a fault it was in the other direction. If there was a fault in the handling of the Lynskey Tribunal it was the sadistic savagery in punishing a man for minor peccadilloes.
  I ask myself which kind of Prime Minister runs the country better. Who is better on the security rule—the man like Attlee, who is tough and knows that if one has that job of Premier it is because one is prepared to do the unpleasant parts of the job and not only the pleasant parts. If he is not prepared to do the unpleasant parts, the sooner the Prime Minister gets out the better. The attitude "I did not like to do it because it was uncomfortable" is natural enough, but one is not made Prime Minister to have those natural human tolerances.

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  I want to say something about toleration. We, as Members of this House, can be very proud of the improvement there has been in the last fifty years in our toleration. We are far more tolerant about each other's private lives. Questions are not asked about private Members' lives. That is a great advance, but it would be a fatal thing if the tolerance rightly extended to the private Member, who has not heavy responsibility, got confused with laxity in situations which demand great severity. We cannot apply to the Cabinet, and to Cabinet Ministers who deal with security matters, the easy-going tolerance that we apply to each other in private life as ordinary Members. It cannot be done. There has to be a severity, an austerity at that level. I have said it in previous debates.
  Going back to the case of Burgess and Maclean, it was a laxity in the Foreign Office that permitted Burgess to become a permanent member of the Foreign Office—a laxity right at the top, which went unpunished. So, too, in the Admiralty with Vassall. Now, we have laxity at the top again. We have a politician behaving to his fellow politician with the kind of laxity that has grown so common in the Admiralty and the Foreign Office, and which is the major cause of the security problems we have faced in the last eight years.
  I agree with what my hon. Friend the Member for Dudley has said about the moral issue. I did not happen to see Lord Hailsham interviewed on television, but I heard the replay on "steam" radio, and although I missed the Churchillian jowl I got the tone of voice. When I heard Lord Hailsham on the need for a moral revolution I began to wonder what he was up to. Did he really want to insist on every Cabinet Minister's life being pried into mercilessly to find out whether or not he had been in the Divorce Court? Did he really want that? If he did not want that, what was he doing?
  I will tell the House. He was trying to deflect attention from the responsibility of individuals, including himself, for a disastrous situation. He was lighting a decoy fire, but the trouble is that had the fire got well alight it would have set
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  ablaze everything in the country that is worth having. I do not want to see this country a McCarthyite State, and it is a terrible thing for Tories to exploit the McCarthyite arguments in order to conceal things and prevent punishment coming to those who deserve it.
  The Prime Minister failed, Profumo failed, the five failed. Punishment should come, and the party opposite should not at this point try to defend themselves by stoking up the moral fire and saying that all Britain is sleazy and corrupt. Indeed, I think that it was the right hon. and learned Member for the Wirral (Mr. Selwyn Lloyd) who actually said that the Labour Party was to blame. Fortunately, the British people do not take the Tories seriously. There is a lot of evidence in the Gallup poll for the fact that the British people when they hear about the Profumo case despise the Tory Government just two points more. It is a good healthy thing.
  But I would say this to the Home Secretary: he ought to be ashamed that he was not there at the time. What was he doing staying away from awkward decisions on matters of which he ought to have known? He or his colleagues ought to have known the facts. They ought to have investigated Profumo. They ought to have discovered what Fleet Street discovered and what most of the back benchers knew. The only people who did not know it were the Prime Minister and his friends, and I know why they did not know it.
  7.51 p.m.
  Viscount Lambton: I have often been a critic of the Prime Minister, but I could not help feeling very sorry for him this afternoon. It struck me when I was listening to his speech how badly indeed everyone had treated him. To begin with, Sir Norman Brook two years ago had made a security investigation into the allegiance to the Soviet Union of Ivanov and the relationship with it of Dr. Ward, and he had not bothered to pass this on to the Prime Minister. At the same time, the police this year in this country had questioned Miss Keeler and got from her statements relative to the treason of Dr. Ward, and once again most unkindly they had not passed it on to my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister.

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  Miss Keeler herself was, I think, rather like a successful selling plater. She was owned by a very great number of people for a short time. This year at different times I believe she was owned by the Express group of newspapers, the News of the World and the Sunday Pictorial All these people had information from her, and newspaper men always like passing on information, but none of them passed it on to my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister. What I would say, though, is that I would have been considerably sorrier for him had he asked for this information.
  The great question which I should like to ask is why it was not asked for in the spring. It was no surprise to anyone when Mr. Profumo was called before "the five" that night. Every one of us in the House had heard various rumours about it, the most dangerous rumours of security, of sex, of dope, of scandal in high places. Yet what were these five people obsessed with when they went to interview little Jack that night? It seemed to be: had little Jack been to bed with Miss Keeler or not? They were like five frightened mothers. It was a most extraordinary thing.
  The whole case of the Government has been made on the fact that Mr. Profumo's relationship with Miss Keeler was innocent, and it has been said that as he said it was innocent he deceived everyone. But his innocence was totally irrelevant. It would have been a much more dangerous thing had Mr. Profumo not been going to bed with Miss Keeler, because then he would have been going to discuss things with her six times for half an hour. My right hon. Friend the Member for Flint, West (Mr. Birch) said that she was not a very literary woman. There have been from time to time great literary prostitutes, but I think Miss Keeler was a prostitute who was basically used for prostitution. What I never could understand was how these five members of the Government were apparently satisfied that because Mr. Profumo had not been to bed with her that was the end of the whole affair.
  But, to my mind, the most unsatisfactory part of the whole of this very dingy proceeding was the fact that when this inquiry was called, the police had not been consulted, the security had not been consulted and the newspapers had not been consulted. It did not come
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  out of the blue. Every single fact was known and almost wilfully and blindly our eyes were averted from them. I can almost see the Prime Minister putting his telescope to his blind eye and saying, "I cannot see any of these things". That is exactly what happened on this occasion, and that is what I find so very difficult to forgive.
  After this we come to something even more important, to what was definitely shown and known by everyone, after Mr. Profumo had been interrogated, to be a totally different type of security risk. Originally Sir Norman Brook had only warned Profumo about Ward and Ivanov. No mention had been made of Miss Keeler. This shows how unsatisfactory was the security screen, because our security was not really aware of what was actually happening at the time. That might have washed until the interrogation of Mr. Profumo and his statement, but after that a totally different set of circumstances existed, for it was known that Ivanov was a spy. It was known that Ward was in close touch with the highest of Soviet circles and it was known that Miss Keeler was a friend of all of them. Yet, despite this fact, for nearly three months Mr. Profumo, who had been in this set, or whatever one likes to call it, was allowed to remain in office as Secretary of State for War. How was that defensible? That was the question which the Prime Minister skated over this afternoon.
  No mention was made of the fact that the Leader of the Opposition had put facts in his hand which definitely proved that, sexually or innocently, the Secretary of State for War had been in close contact over a period of time with a spy, with a semi-Soviet agent, and with a girl in the prostitution racket. He was, therefore, subject to blackmail. He was, therefore, a person who could not be depended upon. It is also irrefutable—this is the most important thing of all—that as the secret service did not originally know that Miss Keeler was connected with this group, they could not have checked on the fact that there was no security lapse at that time.
  Why? That is the question which I would like answered by my right hon. Friend tonight. The worst of it is that even though my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister knew that his War Minister was in a

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  position where he could be blackmailed, he refused to change his mind about getting rid of him. He continued to maintain him in office. This is something which I find almost impossible to condone.
  7.58 p.m.
  Mr. B. T. Parkin: Like many other people, I have received an enormous correspondence in recent weeks and I should like to quote from a letter which I received this morning from my constituency, which says:
  "Speaking as members of the teaching profession we are horrified at the mockery the present crisis makes of our job of building character. Without the qualities of self-discipline, honesty and integrity which we fry to teach, the next generation is lost. Will you speak out tomorrow in the debate—not as a party reactionary but as a defender of all that is best in our nation?"
  I think I would have tried to do so in any case, but I think that letter is representative of a lot of the hurt and confused opinion in this country at the present time.
  I am particularly glad to quote that letter from my constituency because I am often asked—even sometimes by my colleagues by way of a joke—about problems in my constituency as if they were all problems of vice and corruption. That is not the case. Like most constituencies, mine for the most part consists of ordinary normal people who are struggling to live up to what the writer of this letter refers to as "all that is best in our nation."
  My position as a politician is not that of a crusade on the issue of morals. My job as a politician is to fight to see that people who have to live in areas where there are social tensions, where there is overcrowding and strain, do not have their characters broken by the environment in which they live. It is not for us to be astonished at the number of moral breakdowns in overcrowded parts of the great cities. It is for us to be astonished at the very small number of people who in fact break down—astonished at the resistance of normal people to this erosion and corruption arising from bad social conditions. The moral position of a politician in this House should be to fight for the alteration of the social background which has brought about some of these things.
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  It happens that many people in my constituency were able to tell me in advance a great deal of the information which is now common knowledge. I cannot yet understand how it is that on the subject of this incident an ordinary back bench Member of Parliament could have thrust upon him from his own constituency information which we now are told was not available to the Government—that the Home Secretary was not present at that late night discussion, that he had not inquired from the police about inquiries which we now know that they were making, which they must have been making, and which they are constantly making about the typical background to this particularly sleazy scandal.
  It is the normal duty of the police to be aware of the contacts that go on, the activities that go on in clubs and so on. It is not my intention to recount any of these details, but I say to the Home Secretary that he has something else to worry about. I refer to the damage done in our relationship with other countries and within the Commonwealth, because this information was brought to me in the first place by West Indians who knew all about these contacts and habits and who were aggrieved that a West Indian had gone to prison for seven years while, as they put it, the rich white men go free. This is not news now and it ought not to have been news then to the Home Secretary. He ought to have been as well able to get hold of this information as I was—in fact, better able.
  Various protectors of this girl have been mentioned. One of the protectors of this girl, I was told, was a figure who is now dead, but a character who eluded the Home Secretary when he was Minister of Housing and Local Government and who eluded him as Home Secretary—a character involved in a series of deals in slum property in the Paddington area. He was an expert in fiddling the ownership of houses from one company to another, so that it was never possible to catch up with him and enforce the law to get repairs done, and all the rest of it. His name, I am sorry to say, was a household word. It was a perfectly well known name to the police. It must have rung a bell. These names must have been familiar.

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  What beats me is the weariness and incompetence of the Government at every stage. If they had bestirred themselves they would have got the information. But all we get is the belated appearance on television of Lord Hailsham whose performance was particularly revolting to me because he tried to make out that this particular action—what he called the proven lie—was something quite in isolation, although it has been pointed out in the course of this debate that it was not the first time that that wretched Minister had been frog-marched to the Front Bench to make misleading statements to the House.
  If that exercise was devised to get the Government out of trouble it was not the first political lie that had been told. Lord Hailsham said that if he had been there he would not have remained a Member of the Government for five minutes, or that he would have got the man out in five minutes. It would take him half an hour to resign from all his positions in the Government, and during that time he might have had time to think again how many other proven lies, as he calls them, have been uttered from the Government Front Bench or Tory Party headquarters which have had an effect on moral welfare in my constituency.
  I am more concerned about the lie told at one election when the Government said that they had no intention whatever of interfering with food subsidies and at another when they said that they had no intention whatever of interfering with rent controls. Did Lord Hailsham threaten resignation then, or did he when he got to Tory Headquarters sack immediately the man who told that particular lie? These are political lies which have their consequences.
  This is a moral issue between political parties. It is between political parties, because if we are to have competitive co-existence in this country or in this world we must have it on the assumption that each of the sections of opinion accepts at least certain basic common principles. This is the sort of moral revival and restoration that we need in this country now. We need to be assured that we are agreed on certain primary objectives, not a list of moral rules which we suddenly produce with great enthusiasm when they are required, but things
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  like, "Are we all dedicated to the proposition that we have to restore human dignity, human equality and human freedom throughout the world?" These are the things that matter.
  The attitude of Lord Hailsham will not help, because that is the only way we can get on terms of human equality with evolving societies in other parts of the world. I do not know whether some hon. Members who have been speaking today have been rooting for Lord Hailsham as Prime Minister or Foreign Secretary, but does anyone think if he behaves like that—devoid of compassion and charity—he will get on well on the subject of test bans or any other form of international relationships?
  Is no one in the House today going to say a word of compassion for the poor little slut who is at the centre of all this? I think of five men in a room in the middle of the night discussing how they can make it appear that the word "Darling" is not compromising in any way, when surely we need a little compassion to consider how these wretches get into the state that they do. It was not that she was short of someone to call her "Darling". It may be commonplace in certain strata of society. There are many others like her. How much better it would have been if there had been some older man, a relative, who had been able to say, "Darling, come home; darling, it is not worth it; darling, what are you fighting against?"
  Of course there was security risk in this and a political risk in relationships of this kind. There was the risk of the canker in our society. There are the wretched creatures, who, because of their personal circumstances, have a love-hate relationship with the father whom they have not got, or with any substitute father; they must both love and hate him and betray him. This is elementary. But where does a word of compassion come? It seems that some of the people who have been sounding off with their Pharisaical denunciations can never have had any problems in their own families. There would be far more compassion and understanding from the younger generation, from those who have to live in these circumstances, although they struggle against them and although they deplore and regret the breakdowns.

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  This is what we must, somehow or other, get out of this debate. If people mean what they say when they write to me telling me not to talk "dirt", not to talk party politics, but to talk of what is best for the nation, if we are to get back to a real understanding of the principles of democracy, there must be some kind of purging and renewal of principle. What pleasure is it to me to see the Prime Minister a beaten and broken man today? I hope that the Tories will not just trundle him out, without thinking of what their own responsibilities are and how far they go. It can fairly be said that the Opposition have treated this matter with a reasonable sense of responsibility.
  If the Prime Minister wants a book to read, I can recommend one to him. It is very difficult to get hold of; one has to go to the publishers for it. There is hardly more than one copy in existence. It is published by Macmillan, and it is a biography of Daniel Macmillan who, a hundred years ago, coughed himself to death before he reached the age of most of us in this House. He was, in those days, a Tory Christian Socialist, at a time when none of those words was a dirty word. He tried to restore the notions of stewardship and social responsibility in the heart of London, in Westminster, Lord North Street, Smith Square and the rest where the centre of the troubles was.
  In those days, it was the Liberals who were the bosses, the materialists, the cruel and immoral ones, who were destroying the notions of stewardship and social responsibility to which we must come back again. The Tory Party, will not revive until it reads that book and goes back to the best of its old traditions instead of the worst. It must face the fact, as we must face it across the Floor, that there are certain inbuilt defects in our society which must go. We have our recommendations for altering them. The Tories say that they have theirs. These are the problems we must tackle. Parliament will not survive, democracy will not survive, and we shall earn the contempt of the younger generation, if we get involved merely in sordid calculations about how best one can mislead the House of Commons into delivering a temporary voting triumph in the Lobby when, in fact, what is happening is a betrayal.
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  As for questions of security, I know nothing of military secrets. I have never had any military secrets to reveal. I do not suppose that professional spies hang about brothels to get details of the armaments of tanks or submarines. But, if there has been anything which brought disaster and war, it has been an error of judgment by people who have not been sure that one Power really intended to do what it said that it would do. It is a true sense of integrity which we must restore, an impression that one has a sound policy which is perfectly well understood, which ought not to be kept secret but which ought to be passed around the world by the best possible channels of communication which can be found.
  8.12 p.m.
  Sir Cyril Black: I hope to make what could be regarded on both sides of the House as, so far as I can make it, a non-partisan speech. First, in view of the many things which have been said here today and said in the newspapers for a long time past, perhaps I ought to make an admission. Speaker after speaker has said that for many months rumours have been circulating in the Lobbies of the House and elsewhere regarding the matters which have only recently come to a head and caused such a scandal. Probably, I do not move in the right circles, but I can only say that until Friday morning, 22nd March, when I was in my place at 11 o'clock and the statement was made I had heard absolutely nothing whatever regarding these rumours. To me, therefore, it is an even greater shock that this scandal has come upon us at this time than it has been to those many hon. Members who profess to have known all about it for a long time.
  I hold the view that the matter which we have been debating is far too grave for us to be prepared to regard it in terms of party advantage or party loyalty. We are dealing with something, whatever the outcome may be, which will have consequences which will last for many a day, many a week and many a month. My judgment is that this is one of those great Parliamentary occasions on which Members of all parties should be prepared to listen to and to weigh the arguments and then, at the end of the day, do what they believe to be right in the light of

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  their consciences. The issues involved are far too great to be determined upon the basis of a vote merely on strict party lines.
  I do not feel that I can add anything by seeking to go over the dates, the incidents or the arguments in relation to this long and sordid story or by trying to add to what has been said already in that connection. My impression is that there are still many dark and unexplained matters connected with this long and tangled story, and I do not believe that the whole truth is likely to be obtained by the kind of discussion which has been taking place in the House today. Indeed, a discussion of this kind often proves to be the worst possible means of obtaining a clear, impartial and objective view of what has, in fact, been happening and what have been the respective rôles of the people concerned. I myself regret that, apparently, nothing is to be done by way of setting up an independent inquiry which could go into all these matters, examine all the witnesses and bring back to the House in an impartial and dispassionate spirit the result of its investigations.
  I should, I think, have been prepared to give my support to the Government today if it had been proposed that such an independent inquiry should take place. In the absence of such an inquiry, feeling as I do at this moment, I cannot see that I shall be able to bring myself to support the Government in the Lobby tonight.
  One aspect of this matter is at least as important as the question whether there has been a breach of security, namely, the moral issue implicit in this whole affair from beginning to end and in all details of the sordid story with which we are dealing. As a matter of personal judgment, I repudiate the view which has been expressed on many occasions in the Press, by prominent people in recent days and in the speeches of several hon. Members today, that the private morals of an individual who occupies a position of responsibility under the Crown are not a matter with which this House can be concerned. My right hon. Friend the Member for Flint, West (Mr. Birch) suggested that moral standards were matters for priests and for prophets and they were not matters with which the House could possibly concern
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  itself. It seems to me that it is this kind of thinking which has landed us in our present situation and which has contributed to much of the difficulties which exist in the nation's life today.
  I do not believe that one can separate the private lives of men in positions of government from their public lives and their public actions. The whole moral character of what has been taking place comes as a reproach to this House and a reproach to the high court of Parliament and of government in this country.
  It seems to me a complete irrelevancy to argue that, because the private lives of Wellington, Nelson, Parnell and Palmerston were not blameless, the private lives of Ministers are not a matter of concern. I believe that those who have the privileges and obligations of leadership have a very special responsibility to try to set a lead to the nation as a whole, and I do not believe it reasonable to expect that the nation as a whole will adopt higher moral standards than those that are implicit in the legislation which is promoted by this House and the lives of those who have taken upon themselves the duties of leadership. If any choice has to be made, it is better that this country should be governed by good men than that it should be governed by clever men.
  As I think has been made clear in this debate, it is perfectly obvious that moral standards, both in this case and in all similar cases, are not remote and detached from security questions but are closely related to the whole problem of national security. Security is not only a matter of the operations of M.I.5, of keeping Cabinet and defence secrets, or of retaining privately the knowledge which is possessed about H-bombs and new weapons. The security of the nation depends at least equally on the character of the people, and when the kind of scandal breaks which we have witnessed in recent days it is not helpful to the character of the people which it is our duty as leaders in the nation to try to maintain and uphold. If history teaches us anything, it is that great empires and great nations in the past have come to final overthrow and defeat much more because the life of the nation has been corrupted from within than as a result of the assaults of their enemies from without.

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  I believe that there is a measure of responsibility upon all of us in the situation which exists today. I am not personally concerned to try to shift any share of the responsibility which is mine on to other people. I believe that, to some extent, what has been happening is a matter of responsibility for all of us because for a long time all parties and all of us as individuals have been putting the emphasis on the wrong things. We have been emphasising the importance of the material things of life, the things which make life pleasant and worth while. [Interruption.] I am trying to avoid being partisan. I am saying that a measure of responsibility in these matters rests on all parties and on most of us as individuals, and I am prepared to accept my own share of any responsibility that there may be.
  For fifteen years we have been producing blueprints for a better world and overlooking the fact that "man cannot live by bread alone" and that it is the character of a people which is important rather than the standard of life which they possess.
  Sir William Robson Brown: Is my hon. Friend suggesting that there should be a judicial inquiry in this matter? If he is, I support him.
  Sir C. Black: That is what I have suggested.
  Sir W. Robson Brown: A judicial inquiry?
  Sir C. Black: Certainly. I am very dissatisfied that the matter should be left as it stands. Many questions have been unanswered and unexplained. Many aspects of this matter are dark and confused. If there had been a proposal today for an independent judicial inquiry, I should have been prepared to support the Government to that extent and to await the outcome of such an inquiry. But, in the absence of such an inquiry, it seems to me that this debate must end with a large number of things that we should like to know about unrevealed and a large number of questions to which we should like to know the answers unanswered. For that reason, and in the absence of a proposal by the Government to set up a judicial inquiry, I find myself unable to support the Government
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  in the Division which will take place at the end of the evening.
  I have spoken in the main about the moral aspect of this matter because, in my judgment, it is at least as important as any breaches of security which may have been involved. I hope that hon. Members will not feel that in dealing with the moral issue I have departed from the kind of speech and argument that is proper in this House. I have thought of little other than this matter for many days. Since this scandal broke, I have had this matter laid very much upon my heart, and I should have been unfaithful to those things which I hold most dearly if I had not spoken in the way that I have.
  8.27 p.m.
  Mr. Marcus Lipton: It is important that public confidence in the administration of justice should be maintained and strengthened. It is to that aspect of this problem that I propose to address myself.
  The shooting episode which took place on 14th December, 1962, alarmed quite a number of people who realised that it might lead to the appearance of Miss Keeler in the witness box. If she appeared in the witness box there was no knowing what she might or might not say. By some strange coincidence, within a very short time of that shooting incident, Captain Ivanov left London. Miss Keeler appeared at the magistrates court and was bound over in recognisances of £40 to appear at the trial to take place in due course at the Old Bailey. She was bound over in December 1962. According to what the Prime Minister told us today, she was being interviewed by security officers in January 1963. Therefore, some interest was being taken in her whereabouts and in her activities by the security authorities. Yet, when the trial of Edgecombe took place at the Old Bailey on 14th March, 1963, Christine Keeler had disappeared. The day after, Edgecombe was sentenced to seven years' imprisonment.
  At the trial at the Old Bailey there were four charges in the indictment against Edgecombe. The first was shooting with intent to murder and the second shooting with intent to cause grievous bodily harm. Those two charges, the

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  most serious charges in the indictment against Edgecombe, could not be proceeded with because Christine Keeler was not available to give evidence. Therefore, the Crown had to fall back upon the third and least serious charge in the indictment, namely, possessing a firearm with intent to endanger life. It was on that, the third charge, that he was convicted.
  The question which I ask myself and which ought to be inquired into—and this is certainly a matter for judicial inquiry—is whether an attempt was made by some person or persons unknown to influence the course of justice between the shooting incident in December, 1962, and the hearing of the charge against Edgecombe at the Old Bailey in March, 1963.
  There has still been no explanation why counsel for the prosecution, presumably in accordance with instructions from the Director of Public Prosecutions, made no application for an adjournment of the trial when the chief witness for the prosecution, who was named in the two most serious counts in the indictment, disappeared. Were the police making any effort to find her? I am glad that the Attorney-General is in his place, because he of all people would realise the significance of what I am saying.
  The conduct of the prosecution becomes all the more strange when it is borne in mind that at the previous Old Bailey session, when the case against Edgcombe would otherwise have been heard, the Crown obtained an adjournment for the purpose of calling as a witness a person who had not even been called at the hearing before the committing magistrate. At least, Christine Keeler had appeared before the committing magistrate and given evidence and had been bound over to appear. Nevertheless, the Crown applied for and obtained an adjournment for the purpose of calling as a witness the taxi driver who had taken Edgcombe to Wimpole Mews—not a very important witness.
  When that adjournment was granted for the purpose of enabling the tax driver to be present in court to give evidence about the drive in the taxi to Wimpole Mews, Christine Keeler was still in this country and available to give evidence.
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  I am suggesting to the House that this is a matter which calls for serious investigation by an independent, impartial judicial tribunal or some kind. Once people get it into their heads that witnesses can be spirited away with the idea of protecting someone or other in high position, confidence in the administration of justice is destroyed.
  It is curious that although, apparently, no attempt was made by the police to see that Christine Keeler was available to give evidence at the Old Bailey trial, different methods are now being employed to ensure that witnesses will be available in certain proceedings that may be impending. I quote from the Daily Herald report of 3rd June:
  "Miss Marilyn Rice-Davies arrived from Majorca. She had returned to Britain at the request of Scotland Yard."
  It only goes to show that if the authorities want a witness to be produced, that witness is there. It was because not the slightest attempt was made to ensure the presence of Christine Keeler at the Old Bailey at the Edgcombe trial that she was not there.
  Mr. H. Hynd: Did not the police ask for a warrant?
  Mr. Lipton: No, I believe not. I believe that nothing was done to ensure the presence of Christine Keeler at the Old Bailey trial, but that is one of the things I want inquired into. That is why I support the plea which has been put forward for a judicial inquiry, because many important issues will be left unexplained at the end of the debate.
  I am very concerned that there should not be any kind of suggestion that the course of justice has been tampered with in any way for the purpose of protecting someone in high places or protecting Cabinet Ministers or other Ministers from possible embarrassment.
  In the case of Miss Rice-Davies, she returned to Britain at the request of Scotland Yard. She said that the Yard had sent her two letters in the past week asking her to come back. She said that the police had promised to pay her air fares to and from Majorca and were arranging accommodation for her at a London hotel. That is the kind of thing that the police do when they want to make sure that a witness is there to give evidence and when they

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  want to obtain evidence. None of those things was done in the case of Christine Keeler when she disappeared without trace between the time of the magistrate's court proceedings and the trial of Edgecombe at the Old Bailey on 14th March.
  Mr. Grimond: As the hon. Member has raised the question of Miss Marilyn Rice-Davies, I do not know whether he has noted that today she was, apparently, prohibited by the police from leaving the country. It would be interesting to know under what authority this was done and whether this procedure could have been used in the case of Miss Keeler.
  Mr. Lipton: I am obliged to the right hon. Gentleman, but I was just about to add that point to the argument, that not only had the police brought her back from Majorca and paid for her air passage, but that they had stopped her from going to Palma on Sunday night when, I believe, she was intending to go away.
  The police, therefore, know how to deal with this kind of case. They have their technique developed of making sure that witnesses turn up in the case of Crown prosecutions. If one looks at the number of cases in which an important Crown witness has not appeared at the Old Bailey in the course of a year, they can be counted on the fingers of one hand. It rarely happens, because the police see to it, notwithstanding the variegated type of people who have to give evidence in Crown prosecutions at the Old Bailey, that in 99·9 cases out of 100 they are there to give evidence. But that did not happen in the case of Christine Keeler.
  The Attorney-General (Sir John Hobson): There is no power at all to detain a witness in this country. As far as my information goes, the police were unaware that Miss Keeler would not be available until the evening before. Miss Davies has been kept because a charge is made against her and not because she is is being retained as a witness.
  Mr. Lipton: That makes it all the more curious why the Crown prosecution did not ask for an adjournment when discovering that Christine Keeler was not available to give evidence.
  The Attorney-General: I can assist the hon. Member. The first adjournment was because a very important independent witness was ill and had had a heart attack and, therefore, the prosecution asked for the adjournment of the trial on that occasion. On the second occasion—after all, the accused has to be considered—the accused had already been awaiting trial and had had an adjournment, and Crown counsel at the Old Bailey, without any instructions from me or the Director of Public Prosecutions or any pressure, took the view upon the case as it stood that it was safe to go on and satisfactory to continue upon the evidence which was available even though it did not include Miss Keeler.
  Mr. Lipton: Then somebody decided that the two most serious charges against Edgecombe should be dropped, namely, the shooting with intent to murder and the shooting with intent to cause grievous bodily harm. If they were seriously considered as charges against this man, then I cannot understand why they should be dropped as easily as all that and why the prosecution should content itself with the third count in the indictment.
  The other matter which possibly calls for some explanation is the conduct of the case itself at the Old Bailey. As soon as the jury trying the Wimpole Mews case had retired to consider its verdict, the judge at 3.45 p.m. on the Friday afternoon embarked on the trial of a separate charge against Edgecombe of wounding Aloysius Gordon with a knife. Again, Christine Keeler was an important witness on the depositions. The Attorney-General can look at the depositions to see whether what I say is correct or not. Yet the case was heard in a hurry in her absence, and Edgecombe found himself giving evidence in defence of himself on this charge while the jury in the first case against him was considering its verdict. That is a most unusual state of affairs. The second trial ended in Edgecombe's acquittal at 5.30 p.m.
  The day was a Friday, and some people still think that the circumstances were a little peculiar. It looks as if somebody had decided, first of all, that Christine Keeler should not be available and, secondly, that as she was not available the case could be dealt with simply and

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  quickly in her absence—because the danger from the point of view of certain people was the possibility of Christine Keeler appearing in the witness box and being cross-examined. That was something which it was in the interests of certain people to avoid at all costs.
  Mr. Arthur Lewis: Is my hon. Friend aware that Edgecombe wanted to call Profumo as a witness and was not allowed to do so?
  Mr. Lipton: I must finish now. I want to conclude by saying (hat if the truth of the whole unsavoury business that we have been discussing today, including the administration of the law, is to be elucidated, there is a strong case for a judicial inquiry not only into the security aspect but also into the way in which the machinery of justice was interfered with in this case.
  8.42 p.m.
  Mr. Ronald Bell: The speech to which we have just listened has been characteristic of only too much that has been said about this whole matter, containing vague generalised accusations in a most irresponsible manner totally unsupported by even a shred of evidence.
  The hon. Member for Brixtan (Mr. Lipton) throughout his speech was making accusations—clear accusations against the counsel concerned in the prosecution of Edgecombe, I suppose virtually against counsel who are engaged for the defence; against the judge who was conducting the trial, against the police; against the Director of Public Prosecutions and, I suppose, against my right hon. and learned Friends the Law Officers of the Crown, and possibly against other people as well.
  He said, "It was decided by somebody"—he did not specify whom "that it would be inconvenient if Christine Keeler gave evidence", and that it was, therefore, decided to keep her away and that the trial could be pushed through quickly in her absence. The implications in statements like that repeated over and over again in the course of a speech of 15 minutes are really quite disgraceful unless they are supported by some kind of proof.
  This is the kind of vague slur which has been cast around this case. It was
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  cast around before it in the Vassall case, and cast around in the Bank Rate case, and, indeed, is becoming a bad political habit in this country.
  Mr. Lipton rose—
  Mr. Bell: I will not give way. Two other hon. Members wish to speak before the closing speeches are made. I think that the speech which the hon. Member made was not one about which he will on reflection feel proud. In the two preceding speeches from the Opposition benches—the speeches by the hon. Members for Paddington, North (Mr. Parkin) and Coventry, East (Mr. Cross-man)—we also had these oblique references to bad faith on the part of the Prime Minister and the Ministers who interviewed Mr. Profumo and discussed with him on the morning of 22nd March the statement that he was to make.
  I put it directly to those hon. Members, and, indeed, to some extent to my noble Friend the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Viscount Lambton), that if they really mean to say that this was done in bad faith and that the Prime Minister was privy to a deception of the House, they ought to say so, and in plain terms, and not first of all deny that they mean that and then go on to say things which can mean nothing else. This has been done time and again, and these are the habits which will lower the tone of political life in this country. [Hon. Members: "Oh."]
  Mr. Lipton: The hon. Gentleman will be getting Law Officers' briefs.
  Mr. Bell: That intervention was characteristic of the denigrations of personal character which have been made. The hon. Member is suggesting that I am saying all this so that I might get briefs from the Law Officers. Is that the kind of thing to say across the Floor of the House?
  Mr. Sydney Silverman: The hon. Member will certainly get none on this performance.
  Mr. Ronald Bell: There has been much talk about a moral issue. There are moral implications in this matter. But the issue before us of moral character is not whether Profumo should withdraw from public life. He has already

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  done so. Is it the issue that the Prime Minister should resign? [Hon. Members: "Yes."] If that is the issue, then it is a moral issue only if the Prime Minister was privy to the deception of the House by Profumo. [Hon. Members: "No."] Or if he was so negligent, so incompetent, so uninterested in matters put before him that it amounted not merely to incompetence, but was of such a degree that he was affected by the moral life of Profumo.
  Before one believes anybody to be guilty of that kind of complicity or negligence or condonation one has to have some pretty clear evidence against the person who is charged. What is the evidence here for the charge which has been made against the Prime Minister—a charge not perhaps of direct complicity but of such culpable negligence, such indifference, that he should be considered morally blameworthy in this matter? That charge has been made repeatedly by hon. Members opposite, and. I am sorry to say, by my noble Friend the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed.
  If there were no evidence to the contrary, I should be very unwilling to believe that it was so from ray knowledge of the Prime Minister and indeed of the working of the machine of Government. What is the evidence, however? We have had the Prime Minister's statement, which was in very clear terms, that he knew nothing at all about the security aspect except what he was told on certain specific occasions, and that about the material point—which was the relations with Miss Keeler—he knew nothing until the confession of Profumo.
  It is said that this was grossly negligent. We have had a lot of knowledgeable people here today who, after the whole thing is over, claim to have known all about it. They did not say so much before this disaster broke upon us.
  Mr. E. L. Mallalieu: Yes, they did.
  Mr. Bell: No, they did not. That is something we must get clear. The right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition accused the Prime Minister of negligence in this respect. My noble Friend the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed said that the Prime Minister knew that his Secretary of State for War was in a position to be blackmailed and yet he allowed him to continue in office.
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  The hon. Member for Coventry, East said that the Prime Minister knew from security that Profumo was having an affair with a woman who was a security risk. I wrote these things down as they were said.
  What is the truth of the matter? The Prime Minister knew nothing about Christine Keeler until the spring of this year. It is said that he should have realised when this matter was put to Mr. Profumo and denied that Mr. Profumo was lying. Should he? On 26thMarch, the Opposition, through the Leader of the Opposition, placed before the Prime Minister a document in which the facts of this matter were set out. It had been obtained by the hon. Member for Dudley (Mr. Wigg) and the hon. Member for Coventry, East from Mr. Ward.
  What did that statement say on this material matter? It said that there was no impropriety in the relations between Mr. Profumo and Christine Keeler. That happened to coincide exactly with the assurance which Mr. Profumo had given to the Prime Minister. Of course the Opposition had been misled by their informant. He had lied to them. That was Mr. Ward. The Prime Minister was misled by the Secretary of State for War, who lied to him. Both were in the same position. Why should it be negligent for the Prime Minister to believe what he was told by the Secretary of State for War which coincided exactly with what had been put before him by the Opposition when no knowledge to the contrary had been placed before him?
  Nobody on either side of the House has suggested that there had been placed before the Prime Minister any information to suggest an improper relationship between Christine Keeler and Mr. Profumo. It made all the difference in the world. It is the vital issue here, because if the Prime Minister and the Leader of the House and the Attorney-General and the Chief Whip believed on 21st March and 22nd March that Mr. Profumo was telling the truth, then they are not guilty of any conspiracy to deceive the House.
  Mr. S. Silverman: Has not the hon. Gentleman yet appreciated that the important thing in Mr. Profumo's statement was not what it denied, but what it admitted? If Mr. Profumo's denial

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  had been truthful, on the evidence which he provided himself, he would still have been a security risk and would have been for two years.
  Mr. Bell: The hon. Member is evading the point. The debate tonight is to end in a vote. If any hon. Member thinks that that vote is about the state of the security services in England, he is simply deluding himself. The vote is an attack on the integrity of the Prime Minister and nothing else. By making this an issue of confidence, hon. Members opposite are trying to suggest that the Prime Minister's honour is involved and that he should resign. That is what the debate and the vote are about, and it is on that issue that I shall cast my vote—on the simple, narrow question of whether the Prime Minister and his leading colleagues were dishonourably involved in the deception practised on the House by Mr. Profumo.
  I am perfectly satisfied on the evidence that they were not. I am satisfied that their error about this was fully shared by the Opposition themselves, who had been equally deceived, and that everybody knew about this only after Mr. Profumo had confessed, except possibly one or two Members opposite who appear to have had contacts with the sort of people who might know the truth.
  I do not wish to say any more about this except—[Interruption.]—I am sure that hon. Gentlemen opposite do not want to hear facts which are disagreeable to them. They have tried to conduct this debate on a wide, smearing, basis and to attack the Government, and I think that it will be a great shame if the public life of this country suffers damage from some of the generalised things that have been said today.
  We try to exact a high standard from our men in public life. In political life we have to be a good deal more cruel to personal failure than we could find it right or possible to be in other departments of life. We do that because we want to ensure that those who presume to lead shall have high qualities, and that the public shall believe that they have them, and we shall doubly defeat ourselves if we spread these vague allegations around partly by chasing out of public life men who are not willing to submit their reputations to the repetitive attacks of the kind that we have had in recent years,
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  and partly, in a direct way, by leading people to believe, as I think the hon. Member for Leeds, West (Mr. C. Pannell) once protested, that the people who come to this House are squalid people, when in fact they are hard-working and responsible people in the main.
  For those reasons, whether or not they commend themselves to hon. Gentlemen opposite, I shall have no hesitation in casting my vote tonight in favour of the Government.
  8.57 p.m.
  Mr. R. T. Paget: I find a certain difficulty in following the logic of the argument that we have heard. On the one hand, we are told that, however improbable the story which Mr. Profumo told, however improbable this family friendship with Stephen Ward and Christine Keeler may have appeared, the Prime Minister and the five had so much of Mr. Profumo's special persuasion that they actually believed it, and yet we are also told to believe that the Tory Party, who cheered that improbable story without having any of these private explanations, believed it too.
  The noble Lord the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Viscount Lambton) made no pretence of having believed it, and I am bound to say that few hon. Gentlemen opposite to whom I spoke made any pretence whatever of believing it either. They were satisfied to accept his lie if he could get away with it. That is always the attitude of the Tory Party.
  My sympathy goes to Jack Profumo, whom I have known for a long time. I know that he had a gallant war record in which his courage was respected by those who served with him. As Secretary of State for War at a time when both sides wanted a volunteer Army, and when there were hon. Members on both sides who said that it could not be done, he succeeded in doing it, and he put great energy into the job.
  Kuwait is one of the very few successes that we have to chalk up. A war was probably avoided which would have been difficult for us. It was not an easy decision because, as my hon. Friend the Member for Dudley (Mr. Wigg) pointed out, he had to move pretty unprepared. I believe that we owe him a measure of gratitude for that, but this is the man who is now the goat upon whom the members

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  of the Tory Party are seeking to discharge their guilt—because it is their guilt and they were with him in this.
  From Lord Hailsham we have had a virtuoso performance in the art of kicking a fallen friend in the guts. [Interruption.] It is easy to compound for sins we are inclined to by damning those we have no mind to. When self-indulgence has reduced a man to the shape of Lord Hailsham, sexual continence involves no more than a sense of the ridiculous. [Interruption.] Yet this is the performance which made the Tory Party say, "Here is our missing leader." The moment he was cornered, by being asked about the three-line Whip, what did he do? He told a lie. [Interruption.]
  Mr. E. L. Mallalieu: On a point of order. Is it in order for hon. Members opposite to shout all the way through a speech of an hon. Member on this side of the House?
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Sir Robert Grimston): It is not in order, but it often happens on both sides of the House. It is to be deprecated.
  Mr. Paget: When he was cornered he proceeded to lie. My hon. Friend the Member for Dudley was right in saying that this was lying humbug. But all those hon. Members opposite who knew that were yet prepared to say, "This is our missing leader."
  I give this as a serious warning. We have inflated the position of the Prime Minister to one which is all-powerful. His dominance over this House will be demonstrated tonight—we all know that—as his dominance over the Cabinet has already been asserted. The only difference between the position of a Prime Minister and that of a Fascist leader is the personality of the man who holds the office. If we are going to appoint an hysterical demagogue, with a brutal tinge, such as we saw on television the other night, what we shall get is something like a Fascist State. I hope and believe that we shall avoid this.
  If the Tory Party, which in all conscience has not cared very much about the question of adultery, objects to the question of lying, I would say that there is a comparativeness and relativity in deceit. There is the deceit in which a
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  man seeks—when he has been pushed from pillar to post—to offer his resignation, and is told by the Prime Minister, according to reports, "If it is girls, it is all right. If it is all right by your wife it does not concern me", and according to his own version today, "Resignation may help you but it will not help me". Having had his resignation treated in that way, he is driven on and on until he is put up to make the fatal statement—a statement which was cheered by hon. Members opposite, not in belief, but simply because they thought that they had been extracted from a scrape in exactly the same way as they cheered the Prime Minister when he extracted the Home Secretary from the position of having deceived the House in the Enahoro case.
  If we are having relativity in deceit, the deceit of a man who seeks to avoid a question which perhaps should not be put is far less than the deceit of a man who deceives this House in order to deprive another of his liberty. And yet, because they got away with it, that deceit, hon. Members opposite were perfectly prepared to cheer. When I learn that the right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary is selected as one of those who have taken a high moral stand on this, as against the Prime Minister, weeks, only a few weeks, after the Prime Minister rescued him, I find that this touches an all-time depth in nauseating hypocrisy.
  I have only one further point to make. It is this. In the case of Baldwin, in the case of Chamberlain, in the case of Eden, the Tory Party attempted to rescue themselves by cutting the head out of the image of their party. Their problem today is to find a substitute head, because too many of them are involved in this discredit for them to be able to find a creditable or credible alternative. This is not a question of getting rid of the Prime Minister. As The Times said, it is a question of getting rid of a Government which has debased the whole moral currency of the country.
  9.2 p.m.
  Sir Henry d'Avigdor-Goldsmid: I have exactly three minutes in which to explain to my colleagues why I cannot support them in the Lobbies tonight. I would say, very briefly, that the interview between the five Ministers

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  and Mr. Profumo and his solicitor strikes me with horror. First of all, I cannot understand this feeling that because he is accompanied by his solicitor therefore he is an honest man. In my experience litigants nearly always deceive their solicitors, and very often there were cases where they specially selected solicitors who would believe their lies—[Hon. Members: "Oh."]. There are cases. I could quote examples. The most notable is the case of Oscar Wilde. He took a solicitor who would believe his lies because the solicitor who knew him would not take his case.
  This interview was one where it seems to me no proper precautions were taken to test his story. His story was not tested in this House. Perhaps we rely too much on the word. We are over-obsessed, perhaps, by words spoken from the Treasury Dispatch Box by Ministers. Like so many of my colleagues, over the years I have made applications to Ministers, and if I have had an encouraging word from the Treasury Dispatch Box it has meant to me something much more than something said by that particular Minister, who may be out of his place within a day or two. It has meant that what he said binds the Government. That was the position. On 21st March Profumo's troubles were his own. On 22nd March, when he spoke from that Dispatch Box, he spoke with the authority of the Government. And he did so because the five Ministers who had questioned him the night before did not prove themselves.
  It is usually said that speeches such as this are made only by disgruntled ex-Ministers or disappointed place-seekers on the back benches. As for the former, I have found, both in peace and war, that the company of my right hon. Friend the Member for Flint, West (Mr. Birch) was both agreeable and stimulating and something in which to rejoice and not to apologise for.
  If I am a disappointed place-seeker on the back benches, surely all of us are. Surely there is no one so humble as to come to this House and not feel flushed with the success of the hustings that one day in his turn he may take his place at the Dispatch Box. I must confess to being disappointed in that. But if I have now taken an action which will certainly
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  exclude me from any prospect of that, it is not out of spite or personal pique. It is because over the years I have learned what so many have recognised before me, that Parliament is bigger than any of its Members and that its honour as an institution far surpasses any consideration of party advantage. When the Division bell rings tonight it will toll for all of us.
  9.10 p.m.
  Mr. George Brown: The hon. Member for Walsall, South (Sir H. d'Avigdor-Goldsmid) will now know as well as anyone how difficult it is to address a speech to this House unless one has the atmosphere for that speech. Nevertheless, let me say that he had the sympathy, I am quite sure, of many on both sides of the House for a very difficult and awkward speech in which to declare whether he agreed with his colleagues or not. For myself I was glad to hear him make it.
  Many have said that this is not the place for a court of morals or a court of Christian ethics, although both are tremendously involved in the questions before us. I shall not go on with them except to say one thing. I align myself completely with what my hon. Friend the Member for Dudley (Mr. Wigg) said earlier about the vigour with which some protesting Christians have dismembered the body of our late colleague the former Secretary of State for War. I feel bound to say that for me the only Christian virtue I am asked now to hold in his case is that of charity.
  Vengeance is especially taken away from Christians living on earth today. I was shocked by the performance of one protesting Christian Minister on the television who seemed not to have heard:
  "Vengeance is mine, saith the Lord"
  and seemed to set out to take it for himself.
  The issue we are competent to judge is divided into three parts. One is to try to discover what happened. Another is to try to discover, if we can, how and why it happened, and the third—which has been curiously absent from most of our discussions today—is to find what steps which ought to have been taken by the Government and our administration were not taken, so that we can see that they are taken in future.

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  Inevitably the Prime Minister, who is not with us at the moment, is deeply involved. There is no question that if responsibility means anything in terms of our society it means that in a case of this kind the Prime Minister is personally and totally responsible and involved. I got the impression—I am sorry to be saying this when he is not present, but I did delay starting my speech until very late. [Hon. Members: "Here he comes."]
  The Prime Minister seemed to be saying today that, if he could show that he did not know what had happened, or how, he was somehow absolved. That doctrine seems to me to be totally unacceptable. If the security of Britain is compromised, as Lord Poole and Lord Hailsham have declared that it was, if the Government administration breaks down—and, after all, the Prime Minister indicated that at different times the security services, the Special Branch, the Home Office and his own office were all failing to communicate with each other about matters which they ought to have communicated with each other about—and if the Prime Minister fails, whether from a decent distaste or lack of concern with security matters, if he for any reason of that kind or any other then failed personally to take charge of the situation, but preferred to delegate it to Ministers who were then totally misled, as we know they were, then he must be regarded as totally and personally responsible.
  "Responsibility" is not just a word. It has a meaning in our tradition, our constitution and our history. It means that the Prime Minister must accept responsibility for the consequences of that sequence of events. If he does not accept responsibility, but says, "I did not know. Nobody told me anything and, therefore, there is no responsibility for me, and I ask for the sympathetic judgment of my fellows," where is the doctrine of Ministerial responsibility? Where is the public protection? If nobody is going to do anything about it, how can the public be protected?
  In my humble submission, the debate has not absolved the Prime Minister or his colleagues. The Prime Minister said
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  earlier that he had three principles to justify; that he had acted honourably, justly and with due prudence. The first is not impugned. The right hon. Gentleman would not regard me as one of his greatest fans in the House, but I am not impugning his honour and nor is any other hon. Member. On the second, he acted justly as he saw it. In the event, it turned out to be rather more than just to the man concerned and rather less than just to our society. But no one will urge that the Prime Minister did not act justly as he felt justice required.
  On the third point, however, the right hon. Gentleman convicted himself. Due prudence would have called for a very much greater degree of personal care and attention than he gave to the matter. It would have called for much more active involvement by himself. It would have called for much earlier recognition of the fact that something was going sadly wrong. What the right hon. Gentleman showed to us was that he and his colleagues concerned with this matter failed on all those counts.
  If the Prime Minister fails to satisfy the House on the point of due prudence, our duty to our constituents requires some clear action from us, because there is no sphere in which we are more entitled to be required by our constituents to be alive and alert in these dangerous times than that of due prudence when the security of the nation is concerned.
  Let us examine the record so far as given to us by the Prime Minister and fill it out with what we know. What is clear, as far as I can piece together, is that Stephen Ward was warned by the security services about associating with Ivanov in July, 1961. So it was at that point quite clear that already the security services were concerned about the activities of Ivanov, concerned enough to warn off any new contacts. Most of us who have experience in these matters know that when the security services consider doing that sort of thing, they are taking a fairly overt action and that the matter has already become a fairly serious one.
  It was, therefore, already known that Ward was a contact, albeit a new contact, of a man with whom they were concerned. And in security work when one warns a new contact one knows that one

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  is taking a certain risk. Thus, as I understand it, it is not the sort of action that is taken unless one is certain about the man about whom the warning has been given. That all happened in July, 1961, and that is really where it all begins.
  Later in July the late Secretary of State for War was warned. Giving warning to senior Ministers about the people with whom they are associating, despite the way in which the matter was treated by the Prime Minister, must be regarded as a fairly substantial act. The Secretary of State was warned by the security services about his association with Ward once they had learned that he had had more than a casual meeting with Ward.
  It is therefore now clear that, still in July, 1961—[Hon. Members: "9th August."]—no, this is still in July. I believe that Profumo was warned round about 12th July, but still in July—[Hon. Members: "No."]—I am talking of 1961. The Leader of the House can clear this up, but I believe that I am right—and the record can be checked—that when Ward had been warned about Ivanov it was only a few days later, but still in July—about 12th July—that Ward told the security services about the meetings that had taken place at Cliveden. I believe that it was about that period in 1961, but that can be cleared up. In any case, one month will not affect my argument. The security services were now sufficiently worried to warn the former Secretary of State about his association with the man called Ward.
  Three things come clear here. When did the practice grow up—the Prime Minister did not settle this at all—by which senior Ministers can be warned about their contacts on security grounds without the Prime Minister being informed that such action has been taken? Those of us who held any office in a previous Administration do not believe that such was the practice then, and we are entitled to know from the Prime Minister whether it was by his authority and on his instructions that the previous practice came to an end—and, if it was without his authority and instruction, who took it upon himself to change the practice?
  Secondly, we are told out of all this that the security services did not at that
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  stage know about Miss Keeler in this matter, and did not learn about her association with the ex-Secretary of State for War, or with Ward—and, therefore, with Ivanov—until January, 1963, when the former Secretary of State appears to have told them while protesting that it was an innocent association. How does it come about that the security services did not know? None of the association appears to have been all that discreet. The parties concerned appear to have met each other fairly publicly and openly. We know from what my right hon. Friend said earlier today, which is not disputed, about the letters that were being sent around at the time of the Cuba crisis.
  It seems quite extraordinary that it should now be claimed that the security services did not know of this association until well over a year later. It is rather difficult for us to believe that this could be so, but if we are told we must believe it was so, then, by definition, it means a rather tremendous collapse in Government administration in a very important area.
  On this question of knowing, there is the statement made, I am told, in an intervention this afternoon in the speech of the hon. Member for Dorset, North (Sir Richard Glyn) by the hon. Member for Cheadle (Mr. Shepherd). I do not want to misrepresent him—I was not here—but I am told that the hon. Member said that he knew in November, 1962, that all four—Ward, Keeler, Profumo and Ivanov—were associating at Ward's flat, and that he informed the security services. This is in November, 1962, and one has to ask the Minister who is to reply to make some answer to that statement which came from his own side of the House and is very material to the allegation that the security services did not hear of it until a considerable time later.
  Another matter arises from this. If the security services were not watching Ward closely, which seems to be the basis for saying they did not know about this association, and did not learn until more than a year later—that is, after the Secretary of State's association with Miss Keeler and, through Miss Keeler, with Ward and Ivanov had finished—if that is true, how can the Prime Minister assert, as he did in answer to my right hon. Friend, that he was satisfied that the

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  security aspect of this matter had been adequately watched?
  Those two things cannot both be true. To be sure that the security aspect had been carefully watched, one would have had to have known about it and been watching. Not to have known about it—which is the other thing he said—and not to have been watching means that one cannot tell whether security was all right or not. This part of the Prime Minister's defence—or apologia, which it was rather than a defence—really contradicted itself and convicted him and his administration.
  The other point which my right hon. Friend made is that it is really pointless assertion, because how could one possibly know the circumstances in which these people were meeting? Think of the circumstances that one would have to be in, in order to know what information was passing while they were meeting. It is a pretty tremendous strain on the credibility of even the most worldly man or woman in this House to believe that one could make such an assertion about people who were meeting in those circumstances.
  But let us go on to the next matter which emerged. Clearly the Government did nothing. The Prime Minister knew on 1st February, 1963, what the allegations were. He knew then because the general manager of a newspaper called on him at Admiralty House. He tells us that that information was then passed to the security services, and I gather that the Prime Minister's P.P.S. also saw the former Secretary of State for War. Round about the same time the Chief Whip saw the Secretary of State for War when the Secretary of State for War said that he would resign if it was thought the right thing to do, and we are told that the Chief Whip said that if the rumours were true he should resign and that if they were not true resignation would be the wrong thing.
  I am bothered to find out what rumours the Chief Whip had in mind at that stage. What we know the Government had been told was that he was associating with Miss Keeler. What we now know is that Miss Keeler was associating with Mr. Ward, who had been warned against Mr. Ivanov, in whom the security services were interested. What
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  rumours did the Chief Patronage Secretary mean? The allegation was that he said, "So long as you are seeing her platonically that is all right, but if you are seeing her non-platonically that is wrong." That seems to be a very extraordinary position for the Patronage Secretary to take.
  The issue was not really how he was seeing her. The issue was: he had got himself into what looked as though it could be a contact ring for enemies of this country. How the Chief Whip could seriously think it was a matter of going deeply into the motives of the man's association with her, and that that was the only matter of concern, in the light of what was clearly known by then, and the Prime Minister already knew, seems to me to be absolutely absurd. He told the Prime Minister about his meetings, so both of them knew.
  We also know that about that time—only a matter of days afterwards—the Metropolitan Police and the Special Branch also had statements from Miss Keeler about being asked for information. We are told that the Prime Minister, who is the head of security, did not know about that and was not told. I am bound to ask: was the Home Secretary not told? If he was not told, how does he defend the collapse of his own Administration? Was he told then, or was he told later, or never? This must be by now a pretty crushing collapse of that Administration. Everybody is getting bits of information which, if put together, would paint a very dark and worrying picture, and not one single Minister is being told by the people for whom he is Ministerially responsible.
  I jump from there to the incident that happened in this House on 21st March and then the midnight—5 a.m. meeting of the group of Ministers who were got together to interrogate the Secretary of State for War and, indeed, to prepare, or, as the Prime Minister said this afternoon, to draft the statement which was to be made to us the next day. There are some questions here not cleared up.
  At that point, when they met—and the Leader of the House was personally there and therefore his testimony must be absolute—they knew, I gather, of the existence of the letter. They knew that it opened with "Darling". I do not know how much else they knew about it, but

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  they knew that much of it. The nature of Miss Keeler's activities was by then very widely known indeed. Her association with Ward and Ivanov was by then very widely known indeed. Did not one of those five Ministers ask to see the letter? The Leader of the House interrupted an hon. Member earlier in the debate to say that he had not seen the letter. But did they really spend five hours will a colleague about a letter opening in those terms, relating to that kind of grouping, and never ask to see the letter?
  The letter has now been published. Had they known the terms of it, would any of those Ministers have been as gullible as they turned out to be? It has been suggested earlier today that this letter was in some way a parting letter, ending the association. This is not true at all. The letter does not bear that construction at all. This is a letter in the most friendly and emotional terms which is saying that he cannot see her tomorrow night but he will see her again in September, and will she please take great care of herself and not run away. I have had occasion to say goodbye to people in my life. Usually my desire has been that they should get as far away as they could. That was why I was saying goodbye. If we are asked to believe that we are Jed by Ministers as gullible, as incompetent, and as non-perceptive as that, then this is about the most scarifying charge that can be brought against them, and it is to that that they plead guilty. That is the whole point of the thing today.
  There had been ample time to check up since 1st February, because it was on 1st February that they heard about it. This went on from 1st February to 21st March. There was no reason why they should have been as short of knowledge as they said that they were on 21st March. Now we have a whole collection of other Ministers also involved in this business. It is impossible to conclude, I think, anything other than this: the motives aside, all the deeper issues aside, one thing must be clear—there has been a tremendous collapse, derogation, from the level of competent administration that our people are entitled to expect. That has been true at the higher Service levels. It has been true at every Ministerial level up to that of the Prime Minister himself.
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  I cannot accept that the Dilhorne inquiry can rest at that. There is much still to examine, not to muck-rake, and not to add to the embarrassment or awkwardness of Ministers—because even in that respect, too, I trust that I can remain of the view that there but for the grace of God go I—but there is much here to examine for the good of our country and the better future conduct of our public administration.
  Therefore, on behalf of this side of the House, I ask that the Government be willing to establish a Select Committee of the House to go further into the matter. We can discuss the composition of it. We feel that this is, in some ways, better than other forms of inquiry. We should wish to be allowed to discuss and agree its terms of reference. Something of this sort must be done if our people are to be satisfied that, out of this terrible mess, will come a more satisfactory way of handling our affairs.
  Meanwhile, however much we absolve the Government as to their integrity or their motives, the final conclusion must be this. The terrifying failure on their part to know what was happening, even after the rest of London, virtually, was talking about it, their failure to protect our people from the possible risks involved, and the Prime Minister's plaintive plea today that it was all because nobody told him anything, require that, at the end of the debate, every one of us must examine his own feelings, remembering tonight that we vote for Britain and people outside, not for our parties inside the House.
  9.37 p.m.
  The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Mr. Iain Macleod): On Friday, 22nd March, a few minutes after II o'clock, and after I had made a short business statement, the Secretary of State for War rose to make a personal statement. The House was unusually full for a Friday. On one side of him sat the Prime Minister; on the other side, myself. This was commented on, and it was taken, perfectly fairly, as a sign that we believed in the statement which the Secretary of State was about to make. Therefore, it is quite right that my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister and I should explain to the House why we came to the conclusions we did.

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  Some people are surprised, perhaps, that the penalty for a lie should be as fierce as it is in this case, but no one who cares about the House of Commons can think this for a moment, because the whole structure of our life together is built on the fact that although we do not trust each other's policies we trust each other's word. Therefore, although this is, I admit, a savage blow to the Government and to public life in this country, it is also, because of that very fact, a blow to the House of Commons, too.
  What I wish to do is to trace the various confrontations which have taken place, in particular the one on the night of 21st-22nd March to which so much reference has been made. As I shall sometimes be speaking for myself but sometimes of meetings at which I was not present, it is desirable, I think, to make plain at the outset where I have personal knowledge and where I have not.
  As far as I know, I have never met or had any correspondence with any of the characters, male or female, who have been mentioned in this matter, with the exception, of course, of Mr. Profumo. The first time I had a discussion with Mr. Profumo was at the meeting on the night of 21st-22nd March, when, because it was raised in the House of Commons and it had to be answered in the House of Commons, it became a House of Commons matter; but I have been most closely into the previous meetings with the Law Officers, who naturally, feel very keenly indeed about some of the slurs—they can be regarded in no other way—on the adequacy of the inquiries which they have made.
  This is the story, wherever possible, in the words of the Law Officers themselves. On 28th January, the Solicitor-General learned of rumours about Mr. Profumo's name being associated with Miss Keeler, who was about to give evidence at the Old Bailey. He told the Attorney-General, who at once informed Mr. Profumo, and Mr. Profumo came to see the Attorney-General that night. The Attorney-General emphasised to him the vital importance of complete frankness and of telling the whole truth, and he then told the Attorney-General the same story that he later repeated to the House and which he maintained consistently in all its details until his confession on 4th June.
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  He asserted the complete innocence of his friendship with Miss Keeler and said that not only had there been no adultery but that no sexual impropriety of any sort had taken place. He wrote the note which had been referred to on the day when he had been seen by Sir Norman Brook and warned not to go to Mr. Ward's flat. Here hon. Members opposite who tried to interrupt my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Chertsey (Sir L. Heald) were right and my right hon. and learned Friend was wrong. As far as the dates are concerned, it does not alter the right hon. Gentleman's argument in the least, but, just for the record, the two warnings were further apart than he suggested. The first was on 8th June and the second, which is also the date of the letter, was on 9th August, two months later.
  The Attorney-General told Mr. Profumo that if his story was true he would have to take proceedings as soon as he had proof of any libellous publication. Mr. Profumo repeated that there was nothing in the rumours and he was then advised to seek the best obtainable legal advice, and he consulted Mr. Derek Clogg, the senior partner of Theodore Goddard and Co. and a solicitor of the highest reputation and widest experience.
  Two days later both Law Officers saw Mr. Profumo and the Solicitor-General put the same points again to him. The story was again the same, and he was asked, "Are you prepared to issue a writ if anything should appear which can be judged libellous?", and Mr. Profumo said that he would do this, even if the person concerned was a friend, even if the person concerned was a colleague. On 3rd February, Mr. Derek Clogg came to see the Attorney-General and confirmed on behalf of Mr. Profumo that the relationship with the girl was exactly as Mr. Profumo had told him.
  There are some other matters to add briefly. First, the Attorney-General had understood, and he had, of course, confirmed, that before 4th February Mr. Profumo had deliberately instructed his solicitors to take proceedings for an injunction against any paper which proposed to publish any story by Miss Keeler imputing any impropriety to him, and he had also asked his solicitors to get in

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  touch with the Director of Public Prosecutions. When the trial of Edgecombe opened at the Old Bailey on 14th March and Miss Keeler did not appear, the House will remember that the rumours began to start—it was actually this point and not the question of impropriety which was raised in the House by hon.Mem-bars—that Mr. Profumo was concerned with her disappearance. There had been some comments on that this afternoon. It was to this point that inquiries in the House were addressed and on this the Attorney-General spoke to him and he was assured—again this assurance was repeated in the personal statement—that neither he nor anyone on his behalf had anything to do with the absence of Miss Keeler as a witness.
  So we come to the night of 21st-22nd March.
  Mr. S. Silverman: Does the right hon. Gentleman happen to know on whose instructions, when the prosecution found that its principal witness, on whom the first two grave charges depended, was not there, it was decided not to ask for an adjournment and to try to bring her to court but to proceed on the minor charges when the principal witness was not in court?
  Mr. Macleod: If the hon. Member had been present, that was made clear by my right hon. and learned Friend the Attorney-General in an intervention earlier. It was done by the Crown counsel without reference, I understand, at all.
  Mr. Lipton: Without instructions?
  Mr. Macleod: So I understand.
  Mr. Silverman: I do not believe it.
  Mr. Macleod: Perhaps I can continue. On that evening, the Law Officers were on the Bench when these matters were referred to in the House. They then saw the Chief Whip and it was decided that a personal statement setting out the facts of the association as Mr. Profumo had continuously asserted them to the Law Officers and to others should be agreed by the Law Officers and by Mr. Profumo's solicitor, which, if Mr. Profumo would agree, would be made to the House.
  Some people have commented that it was strange that the solicitor attended. On reflection, I cannot believe that they
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  can think this wrong. After all, if someone had held to a story for months, if he had said, "As soon as it reasonably can be raised, I am committed to sue anyone, even my dearest friend", if he was making that public announcement, it was essential that the legal advice that he had had throughout—[Hon. Members: "No."]—of course—should be available at that time.
  I heard the ending of the debate and I immediately consulted the Chief Whip. The timings are, I think, accurate as I gave them in an intervention to the Leader of the Opposition. We called the meeting, not actually at 12 o'clock, although, again, it does not alter the strength of the right hon. Gentleman's case, but at about half-past one and immediately after the debate had ended, when the Leader of the Opposition replied. The Home Secretary left at 1.22. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] He had left—[Interruption.]—at 1.22.
  We were all aware of Mr. Profumo's emphatic and continual assertions of total innocence to his colleagues and his legal advisers, and indeed, although we did not know this at the time, to the security service as well. We were aware that he had instructed his solicitor and counsel to visit the Director of Public Prosecutions. We were aware that he had issued firm instructions to sue whomsoever provided the opportunity, whosoever he or she might be. The statement produced accurately and fairly what Mr. Profumo time and time again had said to be the truth. They then joined us and the Solicitor-General read it out.
  One point was raised by Mr. Profumo, and perhaps I should refer to it for the sake of completeness. He asked why it was necessary that he should say in the statement that he was on friendly terms with Miss Keeler, as this, to quote his own words, sounded so awful. We insisted that that must be included because it was part of the truth, and an important part, as he had consistently said.
  Mr. C. Pannell: Through you, Mr. Speaker, can the Leader of the House make clear whether this was a personal or co-operative statement?
  Mr. Macleod: Of course, it was a personal statement. [Laughter.] It was a personal statement. [Interruption.] No, it was not drafted in that sense. There

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  is a real distinction. This was a record of what Mr. Profumo had consistently said on scores of occasions to many different Ministers over many months, and this was said in the House of Commons.
  Against these Ministers, of whom I am one, two possible charges can be brought—first, that they were conspiring knaves, and secondly, that they were gullible fools. The first I state only to dismiss, although it is fair to say that many statements that had previously been made up till today's debate would, if true, have given evidence for that.
  I turn to the second charge. No Minister saw the letter before publication on Sunday, 9th June. I myself saw it a few days later than that, on the Wednesday, on my return from America. The letter itself was described when it appeared as effusive but not conclusive. The House must form its own judgment. But at the time we had Mr. Profumo's recollection of it, and, of course, it is difficult to have a coherent recollection of a hand-written note twenty months earlier.
  Indeed, the knowledge that this letter might or would appear and that it was either in the hands of Miss Keeler or in the hands of the Press tended, if anything, to support Mr. Profumo's story, because it is inconceivable, or would seem so, that he would attempt to deceive the House of Commons knowing that his deception was almost sure to be found out.
  It has also been said that there were reports available to us from the security service. I should like to deal with security matters in a moment, and particularly—
  Mrs. Barbara Castle rose—
  Mr. Macleod: I have not time to give way. I want particularly
  Mrs. Castle: On the point of the letter, the five Ministers, as I understand, were aware that a personal note had been sent by Mr. Profumo to Miss Keeler headed "Darling" which was dealing with a purely private appointment that he had had with her. How, then, could the five Ministers agree that he should make to the House of Commons a personal statement concerning the words
  "…I met Miss Keeler on about half a dozen occasions at Dr. Ward's flat, when I called to see him and his friends."—[Official Report, 22nd March, 1963; Vol. 674, c. 810.]
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  How can the right hon. Gentleman reconcile that with a personal appointment with Miss Keeler?
  Mr. Macleod: I do not find any difficulty in reconciling that, and my right hon. Friend dealt specifically with that point.
  I must answer specifically the point about security and the point about an inquiry. I want to dispose quickly of this matter. [Interruption.] Let the House wait. The first knowledge that the security service had—I repeat this; it answers another point made—of any association between Miss Keeler and Mr. Profumo came at the end of January 1963. This disposes of many rumours that there have been that this information was available to the security service months before.
  So the position is that to the head of the security service Mr. Profumo told the same story on several occasions. He repeated it to the Law Officers, who were men trained in the examination of witnesses, and one of whom in particular, the Solicitor-General, has exceptional experience in this field. Mr. Profumo maintained the story repeatedly to the Chief Whip—and gullibility is not a characteristic of Chief Whips—and he maintained it, finally, to the Minister without Portfolio and myself.
  Even if we are acquitted, as I am sure we are, on the charge of conspiracy, I cannot believe that anybody studying now the story of the events of that night can do other than think that the House must conclude that the charge of gullibility falls as well.
  Much of this debate has been upon security. I think that sometimes one has a false impression of the relationship between Ministers and the security service, because it is very rare indeed for a Minister to see a security report. I myself in eleven years have seen only two or three, and those when I was Secretary of State and some particular matter had to be drawn to my attention. And in exactly the same way I am sure that the police and the security service receive and investigate thousands of stories which have no foundation in fact.
  Mr. G. Brown: About Ministers?
  Mr. Macleod: No, No. And the case of Mr. Eddowes, who, I see, has left for America this evening, is an interesting one indeed.
  But it cannot be denied, and we have not attempted to deny it, that there was a security risk. There are two phases to this. There was the possibility of a security risk from the beginning of February. Then the information which came to light was handed the same day to the security service. By that time, Commander Ivanov had left the United Kingdom. But, of course, a new and graver possibility of a security risk arose with Mr. Profumo's admission and resignation, for now it was clear that in a period in 1961, whether measured by weeks or months—and the evidence is so conflicting that it is almost impossible to untangle—a real security risk obtained.
  Nevertheless, because it was a security risk it does not mean that security information was obtained. But it remains true—and it was perfectly fair of the right hon. Gentlemen the Leader and the Deputy Leader of the Opposition to make this point—that security can never be absolute. The police deal mainly with crime and the security service, obviously, with security. It may well be that there is an ill-defined area between the two and, of course, we should review the situation. What should we do?
  The right hon. Member for Belper (Mr. G. Brown) suggested that there should be a Select Committee of this House. I would like to put forward an alternative suggestion without closing the door in any way to his suggestion. Perhaps we can discuss them both together, because there must be no doubt of our determination that any inquiry
  that would be helpful in this matter should take place.
  I suggest that we look at the method suggested by the Prime Minister after the Vassall Case. This would mean that a small number of Privy Councillors would examine the Lord Chancellor's Report and that that could be followed by an independent judicial inquiry. I believe that that would be a better method. [Hon. Members: "No."] Let us discuss it. I have said that I do not close the door. Genuinely, we will discuss both these methods and any other together in full. There is no question about that.
  I said at the beginning that it was right that those who believed the statement made to the House on 22nd March should tell the House why they believed it. We have tried to do so, and it is for the House to judge whether we have done it convincingly. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said, and the right hon. Member for Belper picked up his phrase, that it was his duty to act honourably, justly and prudently. The same triple duty lies on us all as we vote tonight, for this is a matter for the House of Commons and the House of Commons alone.
  In other aspects, particularly those of security, we may look for help to the sort of assistance we have been discussing, perhaps to a Select Committee, perhaps to a tribunal, perhaps to an inquiry. But here, none of these matters can help us. This is essentially a House of Commons matter. This is the forum and it is the House of Commons which must decide.
  Question put, That this House do now adjourn:—
  The House divided: Ayes 252, Noes 321.

  Division No. 134.]

  AYES

  [9.59 p.m.

  Abee, Leo

  Blyton, William

  Carmichael, Neil

  Alnsley, William

  Boardman, H.

  Castle, Mrs. Barbara

  Albu, Austen

  Bottomley, Rt. Hon. A. G.

  Chapman, Donald

  Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

  Bowen, Roderic (Cardigan)

  Cliffe, Michael

  Allen, Scholefield (Crowe)

  Bowles, Frank

  Collick, Percy

  Awbery, Stan (Bristol, Central)

  Boyden, James

  Corbet, Mrs. Freda

  Bacon, Miss Alice

  Braddock, Mrs. E. M.

  Craddock, George (Bradford, S.)

  Baird, John

  Bradley, Tom

  Cronin, John

  Barnett, Guy

  Bray, Dr. Jeremy

  Crossman, R. H. S.

  Baxter, William (Stirlingshire, w.)

  Brockway, A. Fenner

  Cullen, Mrs. Alice

  Beaney, Alan

  Broughton, Dr. A. D. D.

  Dalyell, Tam

  Bellenger, Rt. Hon. F. J.

  Brown, Rt. Hon. George (Belper)

  Darling, George

  Bence, Cyril

  Brown, Thomas (Ince)

  Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)

  Bennett, J. (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

  Butler, Herbert (Hackney, C.)

  Davies, Harold (Leek)

  Benson, Sir George

  Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)

  Davies, Ifor (Cower)

  Blackburn, F.

  Callaghan, James

  Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)

  Deer, George

  Jones, T. w. (Merioneth)

  Redhead, E. C.

  Dempsey, James

  Kelley, Richard

  Reid, William

  Diamond John

  Kenyon, Clifford

  Reynolds, G. W.

  Dodds, Norman

  Key, Rt. Hon. C. W.

  Rhodes, H.

  Donnelly, Desmond

  King, Dr, Horace

  Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

  Driberg, Tom

  Lawson, George

  Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon)

  Duffy, A. E. P.

  Ledger, Ron

  Robertson, John (Paisley)

  Ede, Rt. Hon. C.

  Lee, Frederick (Newton)

  Robinson, Kenneth (St. Pancras, N.)

  Edelman, Maurice

  Lee, Miss Jennie (Cannock)

  Rodgers, W. T. (Stockton)

  Edwards, Rt. Hon. Ness (Caerphilly)

  Lever, Harold (Cheetham)

  Ross, William

  Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

  Lever, L. M. (Ardwick)

  Boyle, Charles (Salford, West)

  Edwards, Walter (Stepney)

  Lewis, Arthur (West Ham, N.)

  Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E.

  Evans, Albert

  Lipton, Marcus

  Short, Edward

  Fernyhough, E.

  Loughlin, Charles

  Silverman, Julius (Aston)

  Finch, Harold

  Lubbock, Eric

  Silverman, Sydney (Nelson)

  Fitch, Alan

  Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

  Slater, Mrs. Harriet (Stoke, N.)

  Fletcher, Eric

  McBride, N.

  Slater, Joseph (Sedgefield)

  Foot, Dingle (Ipswich)

  McCann, John

  Small, William

  Foot, Michael (Ebbw Vale)

  MacColl, James

  Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.)

  Forman, J. C.

  MacDermot, Niall

  Snow, Julian

  Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton)

  Mclnnes, James

  Sorensen, R. W.

  Galpern, Sir Myer

  McKay, John (Wallsend)

  Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank

  George,LadyMeganLloyd(Crmrthn)

  Mackie, John (Enfield, East)

  Spriggs, Leslie

  Ginsburg, David

  McLeavy, Frank

  Steele, Thomas

  Gooch, E. G.

  MacMillan, Malcolm (Western Isles)

  Stewart, Michael (Fulham)

  Gordon Walker, Rt. Hon. P. C

  MacPherson, Malcolm (Stirling)

  Stonehouse, John

  Gourlay, Harry

  Mahon, Simon

  Stones, William

  Greenwood, Anthony

  Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg)

  Strachey, Rt. Hon. John

  Grey, Charles

  Mallalieu, J.P.W.(Huddersfield, E.)

  Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R. (Vauxhall)

  Griffiths, David (Rother Valley)

  Manuel, Archie

  Stross,Dr.Barnett(Stoke-on-Trent,C.)

  Griffiths, Rt. Hon. James (Llanelly)

  Mapp, Charles

  Swain, Thomas

  Griffiths, W. (Exchange)

  Marsh, Richard

  Swingler, Stephen

  Grimond, Rt. Hon. J

  Mason, Roy

  Symonds, J. B.

  Gunter, Ray

  Mellish, R. J.

  Taverne, D.

  Hale, Leslie (Oldham, W.)

  Mendelson, J. J.

  Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield)

  Hamilton, William (West Fife)

  Millan, Bruce

  Thomas, George (Cardiff, W.)

  Hannan, William

  Milne, Edward

  Thomas, Iorwerth (Rhondda, W.)

  Harper, Joseph

  Mitchison, G. R.

  Thompson, Dr. Alan (Dunfermline)

  Hart, Mrs. Judith

  Monslow, Walter

  Thomson, G. M. (Dundee, E.)

  Hayman, F. H.

  Moody, A. S.

  Thornton, Ernest

  Healey, Denis

  Morris, John

  Thorpe, Jeremy

  Henderson,Rt.Hn.Arthur(RwlyRegis)

  Moyle, Arthur

  Timmons, John

  Herbison, Miss Margaret

  Mulley, Frederick

  Tomney, Frank

  Hewitson, Capt. M.

  Neal, Harold

  Wade, Donald

  Hill, J. (Midlothian)

  Noel-Baker, Francis (Swindon)

  Wainwright, Edwin

  Hilton, A. V.

  Noel-Baker,Rt.Hn.Phllip(Derby,S.)

  Warbey, William

  Holman, Percy

  Oliver, G. H.

  Watkins, Tudor

  Hooson, H. E.

  O'Malley, B. K.

  Weitzman, David

  Houghton, Douglas

  Oram, A. E.

  Wells, Percy (Faversham)

  Howell, Charles A. (Perry Barr)

  Oswald, Thomas

  Wells, William (Walsall, N.)

  Howell, Denis (Small Heath)

  Owen, Will

  White, Mrs. Eirene

  Hoy, James H.

  Padley, W. E.

  Whitlock, william

  Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglesey)

  Paget, R. T.

  Wigg, George

  Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire)

  Panned, Charles (Leeds, W.)

  Wilkins, W. A.

  Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

  Pargiter, G. A.

  Willey, Frederick

  Hunter, A. E.

  Parker, John

  Williams, D. J. (Neath)

  Hynd, H. (Accrington)

  Parkin, B. T.

  Williams, LI. (Abertillery)

  Hynd, John (Attercliffe)

  Paton, John

  Williams, W. R. (Openshaw)

  Irvine, A. J. (Edge Hill)

  Pavitt, Laurence

  Williams, W. T. (Warrington)

  Irving, Sydney (Dartford)

  Pearson, Arthur (Pontypridd)

  Willis, E. G. (Edinburgh, E.)

  Janner, Sir Barnett

  Peart, Frederick

  Wilson, Rt. Hon. Harold (Huyton)

  Jay, Rt. Hon. Douglas

  Pentland, Norman

  Winterbottom, R. E.

  Jeger, George

  Prentice, R. E.

  Woof, Robert

  Jenkins, Roy (Stechford)

  Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

  Wyatt, Woodrow

  Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)

  Probert, Arthur

  Yates, Victor (Ladywood)

  Jones, Rt. Hn. A. Creech(Wakefield)

  Proctor, W. T.

  Zilliacus, K.

  Jones, Dan (Burnley)

  Pursey, Cmdr. Harry

  Jones, Elwyn (West Ham, S.)

  Randall, Harry

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

  Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham)

  Rankin, John

  Mr. Bowden and Mr. Rogers.

  NOES

  Agnew, Sir Peter

  Batsford, Brian

  Black, Sir Cyril

  Aitken, Sir William

  Baxter, Sir Beverley (Southgate)

  Bossom, Hon. Clive

  Allan, Robert (Paddington, S.)

  Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton

  Bourne-Arton, A.

  Allason, James

  Bell, Ronald

  Box, Donald

  Amery, Rt. Hon. Julian

  Bennett, F. M. (Torquay)

  Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hon. John

  Ashton, Sir Hubert

  Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gos & Fhm)

  Boyle, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward

  Atkins, Humphrey

  Bevins, Rt. Hon. Reginald

  Braine, Bernard

  Awdry, Daniel (Chippenham)

  Bidgood, John C.

  Brewis, John

  Balniel, Lord

  Biffen, John

  Bromley-Davenport,Lt.-Col.SirWalter

  Barber, Anthony

  Biggs-Davison, John

  Brooke, Rt. Hon. Henry

  Barlow, Sir John

  Bingham, R. M.

  Brooman White, R.

  Barter. John

  Bishop, F.P.

  Brown, Alan (Tottenham)

  172

  173

  Browne, Percy (Torrington)

  Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere (Macclesf'd)

  Nabarro, Sir Gerald

  Bryan, Paul

  Harvey, John (Walthamstow, E.)

  Neave, Airey

  Buck, Antony

  Harvie Anderson, Miss

  Nicholls, Sir Harmar

  Bullard, Denys

  Hastings, Stephen

  Nicholson, Sir Godfrey

  Bullus, Wing Commander Eric

  Hay, John

  Noble, Rt. Hon. Michael

  Burden, F. A.

  Heald, Rt. Hon. Sir Lionel

  Nugent, Rt. Hon. Sir Richard

  Butcher, Sir Herbert

  Heath, Rt. Hon. Edward

  Oakshott, Sir Hendric

  Butler, Rt.Hn.R.A.(Saffron Walden)

  Henderson, John (Cathcart)

  Orr, Capt. L. P. S.

  Campbell, Gordon (Moray & Nairn)

  Hendry, Forbes

  Orr-Ewing, Sir Ian

  Carr, Compton (Barons Court)

  Hicks Beach, Maj. W.

  Osborn, John (Hallam)

  Carr, Robert (Mitcham)

  Hiley, Joseph

  Osborne, Sir Cyril (Louth)

  Cary, Sir Robert

  Hill, J. E. B (S. Norfolk)

  Page, John (Harrow, West)

  Channon, H. P. G.

  Hobson, Rt. Hon. Sir John

  Page, Graham (Crosby)

  Chataway, Christopher

  Holland, Philip

  Partridge, E.

  Clark, Henry (Antrim, N.)

  Hope, Rt. Hon. Lord John

  Pearson, Frank (Clitheroe)

  Clark, William (Nottingham, S.)

  Hopkins, Alan

  Peel, John

  Clarke, Brig. Terence (Portsmth,W.)

  Hornby, R. P.

  Percival, Ian

  Cleaver, Leonard

  Hornsby-Smith, Rt. Hon. Dame P.

  Peyton, John

  Cole, Norman

  Howard, Hon. G. R. (St. Ives)

  Pickthorn, Sir Kenneth

  Cooke, Robert

  Howard, John (Southampton, Test)

  Pike, Miss Mervyn

  Cooper, A. E.

  Hughes Hallett, Vice-Admiral John

  Pilkington, Sir Richard

  Cordeaux, Lt,-Col. J. K.

  Hughes-Young, Michael

  Pitman, Sir James

  Cordle, John

  Hulbert, Sir Norman

  Pitt, Dame Edith

  Corfield, F. V.

  Hurd, Sir Anthony

  Pott, Percivall

  Costain, A. P.

  Hutchison, Michael Clark

  Powell, Rt. Hon. J. Enoch

  Coulson, Michael

  Iremonger, T, L,

  Price, David (Eastleigh)

  Craddoek, Sir Beresford (Spelthorne)

  Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye)

  Price, H. A. (Lewisham, W.)

  Crawley, Aldan

  James, David

  Prior, J. M. L.

  Critchley, Julian

  Jennings, J. C.

  Prior-Palmer, Brig, Sir Otho

  Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. Sir Oliver

  Johnson Smith, Geoffrey

  Proudfoot, Wilfred

  Crowder, F. P.

  Jones, Arthur (Northants, S.)

  Pym, Francis

  Cunningham, Knox

  Joseph, Rt. Hon. Sir Keith

  Ramsden, James

  Curran, Charles

  Kaberry, Sir Donald

  Rawlinson, Sir Peter

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Kerans, Cdr. J. S.

  Redmayne, Rt. Hon.Martin

  Dance, James

  Kerby, Capt. Henry

  Rees, Hugh

  Deedes, Rt. Hon. W. F.

  Kerr, Sir Hamilton

  Rees-Davies, W. R.

  de Ferranti, Basil

  Kershaw, Anthony

  Renton, Rt. Hon. David

  Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. M.

  Kimball, Marcus

  Ridley, Hon. Nicholas

  Doughty, Charles

  Kitson, Timothy

  Ridsdale, Julian

  Drayson, G. B,

  Lagden, Godfrey

  Rippon, Rt. Hon. Geoffrey

  du Cann, Edward

  Lancaster, Col. C. G.

  Roberts, Sir Peter (Heeley)

  Duncan, Sir James

  Langford-Holt, Sir John

  Robertson, Sir D. (C'thn's & S'th'ld)

  Duthie, Sir William

  Leather, Sir Edwin

  Robinson, Rt. Hn. Sir R. (B'pool, S.)

  Eden, John

  Leavey, J. A.

  Robson Brown, Sir William

  Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)

  Leburn, Gilmour

  Rodgers, John (Sevenoaks)

  Elliott, R.W.(Newc'tle-upon-Tyne, N.)

  Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

  Roots, William

  Emery, Peter

  Lilley, F. J. P.

  Ropner, Col. Sir Leonard

  Emmet, Hon. Mrs. Evelyn

  Linstead, Sir Hugh

  Royle, Anthony (Richmond, Surrey)

  Errington, Sir Eric

  Lloyd, Rt.Hn.Geoffrey(Sut'nC'dfield)

  Russell, Ronald

  Erroll, Rt. Hon. F. J.

  Lloyd, Rt. Hon. Selwyn (Wirral)

  St. Clair, M.

  Farey-Jones, F. W.

  Longbottom, Charles

  Sandys, Rt. Hon. Duncan

  Farr, John

  Loveys, Walter H.

  Scott-Hopkins, James

  Fisher, Nigel

  Lucas, Sir Jocelyn

  Seymour, Leslle

  Fletcher-Cooke, Charles

  Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh

  Sharples, Richard

  Forrest, George

  McAdden, Sir Stephen

  Shaw, M.

  Foster, John

  MacArthur, Ian

  Shepherd, William

  Fraser, Rt.Hn.Hugh(Stafford& Stone)

  McLaren, Martin

  Smith, Dudley (Br'ntf'd & Chiswick)

  Fraser, Ian (Plymouth, Sutton)

  McLaughlin, Mrs. Patricia

  Smithers, Peter

  Freeth, Denzil

  Maclay, Rt. Hon. John

  Smyth, Rt. Hon. Brig. Sir John

  Galbraith, Hon T, G. D.

  McLean, Neil (Inverness)

  Soames, Rt. Hon, Christopher

  Gammans, Lady

  Macleod, Rt. Hn. Iain (Enfiefd, W.)

  Spearman, Sir Alexander

  Gardner, Edward

  MacLeod, Sir J. (Ross and Cromarty)

  Speir, Rupert

  George, Sir John (Pollok)

  McMaster, Stanley R.

  Stanley, Hon, Richard

  Gibson-Watt, David

  Macmillan, Rt.Hn.Harold(Bromley)

  Stevens, Geoffrey

  Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, Central)

  Macmillan, Maurice (Halifax)

  Steward, Harold (Stockport, S.)

  Gilmour, Sir John (East Fife)

  Macpherson, Rt. Hn.Niall(Dumfries)

  Stodart, J. A.

  Glover, Sir Douglas

  Maddan, Martin

  Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir Malcolm

  Glyn, Dr. Alan (Clapham)

  Maginnis, John E.

  Storey, Sir Samuel

  Glyn, Sir Richard (Dorset, N.)

  Malhand, Sir John

  Studholme, Sir Henry

  Godber, Rt. Hon. J. B.

  Markham, Major Sir Frank

  Summers, Sir Spencer

  Goodhart, Philip

  Marples, Rt. Hon. Ernest

  Talbot, John E.

  Gough, Frederick

  Marshall, Sir Douglas

  Tapsell, Peter

  Gower, Raymond

  Marten, Neil

  Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

  Grant-Ferris, R.

  Matthews, Gordon (Meriden)

  Taylor, Edwin (Bolton, E.)

  Green, Alan

  Maudling, Rt. Hon. Reginald

  Taylor, Frank (M'ch'st'r, Moss Side)

  Gresham Cooke, R.

  Mawby, Ray

  Taylor, Sir William (Bradford, N.)

  Grosvenor, Lt.-Col. R. G.

  Maxwell-Hyelop, R. J.

  Teeling, Sir William

  Gurden, Harold

  Maydon, Lt.Cmdr. S. L. C.

  Temple, John M.

  Hall, John (Wycombe)

  Mills, Stratton

  Thatcher, Mrs. Margaret

  Hamilton, Michael (Wellingborough)

  Miscampbell, Norman

  Thomas, Sir Leslie (Canterbury)

  Hare, Rt. Hon. John

  Montgomery, Fergus

  Thomas, Peter (Conway)

  Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N.W.)

  Moore, Sir Thomas (Ayr)

  Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)

  Harris, Reader (Heston)

  More, Jasper (Ludlow)

  Thorneycroft, Rt. Hon. Peter

  Harrison, Brian (Maldon)

  Morrison, John

  Thornton-Kemsley, Sir Colin

  Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)

  Mott-Radclyffe, Sir Charles

  Tiley, Arthur (Bradford, W.)

  174

  175

  Tilney, John (Wavertree)

  Walder, David

  Wills, Sir Gerald (Bridgwater)

  Touche, Rt. Hon. Sir Gordon

  Walker, Peter

  Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

  Turner, Colin

  Walker-Smith, Rt. Hon. Sir Derek

  Wine, A. R.

  Turton, Rt. Hon. R. H.

  Wail, Patrick

  Wood, Rt. Hon. Richard

  Tweedsmuir, Lady

  Ward, Dame Irene

  Woodhouse, C, M.

  van Straubenzee, W, R.

  Watkinson, Rt. Hon. Harold

  Woodnutt, Mark

  Vane, W. M. F.

  Webster, David

  Woollam, John

  Vaughan-Morgan, Rt. Hon. Sir John

  Wells, John (Maldstone)

  Worsley, Marcus

  Vickers, Miss Joan

  Whitelaw, William

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

  Vosper, Rt. Hon. Dennis

  Williams, Dudley (Exeter)

  Mr. Chichester-Clark and Mr. Finlay.

  Wakefield, Sir Wavell

  Williams, Paul (Sunderland, S.)

  Mr. H. Wilson: Mr. Speaker, in view of the fact that on a Motion of confidence the Government's theoretical majority—[Interruption.]—is nearly 40 less, may I ask—[Interruption.]
  Mr. Speaker: Let there be silence. I understood that the right hon. Gentleman was addressing me.
  Hon. Members: Point of order.
  Mr. Wilson: On a point of order. Mr. Speaker, I should like to submit to you that when a vote of this kind has occurred in the past the Chair has permitted a question to be put to the Leader of the Government as to their intentions. To give merely one precedent, on 2nd March, 1951, your predecessor in the Chair permitted a question to be put by the Deputy Leader of the Opposition to the Minister in charge of Government business following a Division on a Private Member's Motion moved, I think, by the hon. Member for Wembley, South (Mr. Russell). Therefore, I am asking you whether I should be in order, now or before we adjourn tonight, in putting a question to the Prime Minister.
  Mr. Speaker: I am trying to refresh my recollection. I think I was present on the occasion to which the right hon. Gentleman has referred. I thought that what happened was that the Government of the day had then been defeated on the figures. Subject to the recollection of the House—and I have given only my own recollection—without prompting myself I have great difficulty in seeing how the right hon. Gentleman could be in order—no doubt his point is made already—
  Mr. Wilson rose—
  Mr. Speaker: Order. May I finish my sentence? I find some difficulty in finding a parallel when the Question before the House is whether or not it should adjourn and the extent of the Government's majority is a matter of mathematics rather than a swing over the other way. I know of no precedent which would allow me to oblige the right hon. Gentleman in this instance and to accede to his question in these circumstances.
  Hon. Members: Resign.
  Mr. Speaker: We must get on with the next business, which is about non-alchoholic drinks.

  SOFT DRINKS (REGULATIONS)
  10.14 p.m.
  Mr. George Darling: I beg to move.
  That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty praying that the Soft Drinks Regulations 1963 (S.I., 1963, No. 844), dated 22nd April 1963, a copy of which was laid before this House on 1st May, be annulled.
  For the last six-and-a-half hours we have been listening to revelations of life in which I venture to suggest soft drinks play only a minor rôle. Indeed, this is something of an anti-climax to the stories that have been unfolded to us today, and one might well believe that to talk about soft drinks will help us to get a nasty taste out of our mouths.
  I have to tell hon. Members that in our view the soft drinks business is not as pure as it often makes itself out to be in its advertising. In fact, most of the advertising and labelling is deceptive arid some of it, as I shall try to show, is downright dishonest. Our view of the Regulations before us is that, although they do improve things a little, they are still inadequate.
  The purpose of these Regulations is to lay down new standards for soft drinks. The Regulations also have a very important secondary purpose; it is to control the labelling and advertising of these drinks. It is to restrict the scope of deceptive advertising, but not, unfortunately, to get rid of such misleading and deceptive advertising altogether. I will not go into the history of the Regulations. I am sure that we shall get all that from the Parliamentary Secretary, because I am certain that he will try to defend his Regulations with the claim that they are a big improvement in the consumers' interests on previous Regulations and he will try to prove his point by describing the Regulations in the usual Ministerial detail. I merely wish to tell the hon. Gentleman that we reject his defence of these new Regulations before he makes it. We do so on the grounds that I have already mentioned. First, that the new standards laid down in the Regulations are not good enough and, secondly, because the rules in paragraph 7 for labelling will still allow manufacturers to mislead the public about the composition of the drinks which they put into the bottles.
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  So that there will be no doubt about our attitude, let me say that most of the manufacturers of soft drinks in our view are good, reputable firms which wish to provide satisfactory drinks and no such firm objects to having standards laid down to control what they put into bottles and none of them objects to rules defining the terms which they may use and the terms which they cannot use to describe their products. But this business is highly competitive. It is a mass production business and each manufacturer, to increase his share of the market, goes in for mass advertising. This is where the trouble begins, and that is why we criticise the new Regulations. We shall have to demonstrate this repeatedly to hon. Members opposite and to the public in debates on these matters.
  Advertising, like the monetary system, is subject to Gresham's Law. Bad or misleading advertising drives out good honest advertising, or at least debases it. It has done so in the case of soft drinks. A big business has been built up and manufacturers have a great deal at stake. They fear that if they tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth about the stuff they put into bottles their trade will decline. What they will be allowed to put into the bottles next year when the Regulations come into operation is defined in the Schedules, but the requirements of the Regulations will not appear on the labels on the bottles. Even after these Regulations have been passed, the labels may still be misleading.
  Let me explain the point about which apparently the Parliamentary Secretary is worried. We are concerned with two main types of fruit drinks in the criticism we are making—squashes and fruit juice that are sold to be drunk straight or diluted with water. The minimum requirement of fruit juice as a straight drink which is not diluted is either 3 per cent. or 5 per cent. of the volume. Let us be frank. I think that most manufacturers will work as close as they can to the minimum fruit content which the Regulations will allow, so the customer will get for a so-called fruit squash 90 per cent. of 95 per cent. of water and about 5 per cent. or, in the case of some, 3 per cent. fruit juice and a

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  collection of acids to give the drink some colour and flavour.
  To be honest, such a drink should be described as a synthetic chemical drink flavoured with a small amount of fruit juice, but because Regulation No. 7 will allow the drink to be labelled as orange squash or lemon squash or to have some reference to some other fruit, the public who buy the drinks will not realise that even the most palatable drink will be nine-tenths water. If the rules in Regulation No. 7 are adhered to the label will not make any mention of the flavouring and colouring acids which go into the drink. In our view, the whole operation is misleading. These Regulations not only permit deceptive flavouring, but I think they encourage it.
  The same objections apply to the other drinks which can be diluted, although in the case of those drinks the fruit content is of course higher. Even so, it is pretty low. It is 10 per cent. for non-citrous fruit squashes, 15 per cent. for citrous fruit squashes and barley water, and 25 per cent. for orange, lemon and lime squashes and cordials, but when the drink has been diluted the customer will have added water and reduced the fruit content. Nevertheless, even with those percentages of fruit juice added, those drinks will still be largely acidulated, if that is a permitted word—water, plus a small amount of fruit juice. To describe these drinks as fruit drinks we think unfair to the customer. It is true that the Regulations will limit the deception to some extent, but false labelling will still be permitted.
  Incidentally, the Regulations refer to labelling, but make no reference to advertising. I have assumed that advertising in the Press, on the television and on posters will have the Regulations applied to it in the same way as to the labels on the containers. Most manufacturers make the same kind of drinks, and there is one I could pick out which I think is misleading in its advertising. This explains what I mean by the deceptive advertising which goes on. It merely says in a big advertisement with a picture of a bottle alongside—I shall not mention trade names because it would be unfair to pick them out—that "so and so's crush tastes of oranges, whole oranges and nothing but oranges."
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  Hon. Members will notice how cleverly the words are chosen to give the impression that the drink is made wholly from oranges and contains nothing but oranges. It is a misleading impression, because three-quarters of the drink, if it is made according to the Regulations, is water and acids. Some advertising copywriter is making a good living out of cleverly worded advertisements of this kind.
  Hon. Members may think that we are making heavy weather of this matter. "After all," they may say, "we are dealing with reputable firms which apparently produce what their customers want. The customers are not complaining, so why should we? "We are complaining for three reasons. First, because we believe that truth and honesty is important. We object to people being deceived, even when the deception does not do any harm to anyone. I should have thought that after today's debate all hon. Members would not be exactly eager to encourage deception, even in the soft drinks advertising trade. The Regulations appear to be misleading, for Regulation No. 6, which deals with the addition of acids to soft drinks, says—and I paraphrase—
  "…no soft drink shall contain any added acid…"
  but that
  "…any soft drink may contain ascorbic acid, citric acid, lactic acid, malic acid, nicotinic acid, tartaric acid and anyacid…that…is permitted by the Preservatives in Food Regulations…or the Colouring Matter in Food Regulations…"
  I find the Regulation misleading. It is unfair, for example, to sell to children at the seaside a concoction of water and ascorbic acid, citric acid and other acids with a dash of orange juice and call it "orange squash" when they want, and should have, honest orange juice.
  The second reason why we complain about the inadequacy of the Regulations is that we are concerned with costs and prices. How much does it cost to fill a bottle almost to the top with water, shake in a few drops of acid and squeeze an orange or lemon into it? I am not sure of the cost, but I know that it is not the amount that people have to pay for these drinks, even taking into account the costs of distribution. Thirsty children at the seaside are not only paying for the water and acids but for the monstrously expensive and misleading

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  advertising; and I think that, in all the circumstances, they are paying too much.
  Our third reason for wanting stricter Regulations is that we want to encourage the development of the trade in purer fruit drinks made from fruit grown in this country—from apples, pears, plums and other soft fruits grown here. We can help to do this by insisting on the honest advertising and labelling of all competing fruit drinks. We want people to be free to choose between honest apple and blackcurrant juice, for example, and the synthetic, chemical drinks which are slightly flavoured. If people prefer synthetic drinks, let them buy them, but they should know precisely what they are buying, and the Regulations before us do not lay it down that the contents in the bottle shall be accurately announced on the label.
  If there is to be a raising of moral standards in our society, in public life, business, trade and industry, we should try to stamp out deception, even in the soft drinks business. We need a much bigger soft drinks trade based on the use of our home-produced fruit—honest fruit juices—if we are to develop to the full an efficient and prosperous fruit-growing industry in Britain, because that industry always has surpluses which could be effectively used in this way. To provide fair competition, we need stricter Regulations on labelling and advertising.
  We shall not put our Prayer to the vote because, as the Parliamentary Secretary will soon be telling us, these Regulations do represent an advance in the direction in which we wish to go, and also because there is still a year for better Regulations to be considered—and it looks as though we on this side of the House will have the job of considering them.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Sir William Anstruther-Gray): Before putting the Question on the first set of Regulations, may I ask whether it is convenient to the House that the Soft Drinks (Scotland) Regulations, 1963, should be considered at the same time? I think that both Prayers may be taken together.
  10.30 p.m.
  The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Mr. James Scott-Hopkins): I am very glad that the hon. Member for
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  Sheffield, Hillsborough (Mr. Darling) has taken this opportunity to raise these points in this interesting short debate. I should like to take up what he has said by saying that the Regulations with which the Prayer is concerned do mark a great improvement and a step forward in the protection of the consumer, about which he and I are equally concerned, by giving them protection in this rather narrow and restricted field—and I would make the point that we are here dealing with a very narrow portion of the drinks industry.
  It may be for the convenience of the House if I very quickly mention how these Regulations came about. They were made under the Food and Drugs Act, 1955, which enables us to prescribe compositional and labelling standards for foodstuffs to ensure that foodstuffs on sale to the public are of a wholesome nature and true to their description. I think that they represent a marked improvement on the existing Regulations. In this way, Ministers and the enforcing authorities are able to protect the consumer from food which is not of the prescribed standard or is incorrectly labelled.
  Before Regulations can be made, the Act provides that there must be consultation with all interested parties, including consumers and manufacturers. In this case, the consumers, the manufacturers and all interested parties have been given every opportunity to put forward their comments and suggestions, not only on the Food Standards Committee's Reports but also on our proposals for Regulations. In this way, not only do we take full account of consumer interests but also of the problems that manufacturers may have to face in complying with any new legislation. I can assure the House that this consultation procedure was followed very carefully, and that all the representations received were examined fully before these Regulations were laid.
  The House will realise that the Food Standards Committee—which is an independent body appointed by Ministers to advise them on matters appertaining to the composition and labelling of food—reported in 1959 on the need for revised Regulations governing standards for soft drinks to replace the 1953 Order. I think that I should explain that we

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  had directed that particular attention should be given to the quality of soft drinks because of the increasing quantities that were and are being consumed, and particularly because of their growing attraction to younger people. These are considerations which, as I am sure hon. Members will agree, justify the close attention that the hon. Member has given to this type of product.
  The Committee recommended that the description and composition of soft drinks, which have been subject to some statutory control for nearly 20 years, should continue, and I can say at once that this view has always had the support of the trade and consumers. The Department has been greatly assisted by the co-operation of manufacturers, enforcing authorities and others in the framing of the Regulations. It has largely been a joint operation.
  The detailed recommendations were fully examined, together with a large number of constructive comments from interested parties. These Regulations mark a considerable improvement on those they replace and have a large measure of agreement among all the parties concerned. Perhaps I might be allowed to give a very brief description of these rather complicated provisions.
  First, they revise the present statutory standards of composition. Here, the hon. Gentleman was not quite fair, because the Regulations do lay down, clearly and definitely, an increase in the minimum sugar content and a reduction in the amount of saccharin that is permitted. In the case of comminuted drinks—that is, drinks made, not from the juice of the fruit only, but from the whole fruit—they extend the standards to cover all citrus drinks instead of orange only as at present.
  Secondly, they lay down, for citrus drinks, standard descriptions which will enable the purchaser to distinguish the squash, which will be the fruit juice drink intended for dilution, the crush, which will be the fruit juice drink intended for drinking straight from the bottle, and the comminuted drink. Drinks which have the flavour of fruit but which are not actually made from the fruit, will have to be called lemonade, orangeade, and so on. This constitutes a fourth class of description, and drinks in this class will
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  not be allowed to be labelled in such a way as to suggest that they are made from fruit.
  The hon. Gentleman, I think, was a little unkind to the manufacturers when he referred to those drinks which are for use without dilution—that is, the second and third types that I mentioned—and said that only 5 per cent. consisted of fruit juice. This is the normal practice and it is, indeed, the type of drink that they are required to manufacture. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman has noticed that any fruit juice, sweetened or unsweetened, whether concentrated or frozen or not, is exempted from these Regulations, because it is a different type of product. The person to whom the hon. Gentleman was referring, who wishes to have fruit juice, is drinking something quite distinct from what is dealt with under these Regulations. We are, as I said, dealing with a very narrow section of the drink industry.
  The third point, which is new, relates to saccharin. If soft drinks contain saccharin they must be labelled in a specified manner to indicate this fact. The hon. Gentleman has made the point that the ordinary consumers will not know what they are buying, but I refute this suggestion. The new Regulations concerning labelling, together with the standards laid down in Parts I and II of the Schedule, will be made widely known. The consumers will be made aware of the type of drink they buy. They will know what a "crush", a "squash" and a "comminuted" drink are. The latter includes bitter lemons and bitter oranges. They will also know what "lemonade", "orangeade" and "barleyade" mean. Manufacturers will have the duty to label quite clearly, as is laid down in the Regulations, the type of drink which they are manufacturing and selling.
  Mr. Darling: If, as the Minister says, the customers are going to learn what a squash is by somebody telling them—he does not say who is going to tell them—why not put the information on the label and in the advertisement?
  Mr. Scott-Hopkins: I am sure the hon. Gentleman will appreciate that there is only a certain amount that one can put on a label with any chance of it being read. Some of the labels which are put on bottles are not very large.

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  We are laying down in these Regulations the size of print in which we consider the important words should appear, so that the consuming public may be able to read at a glance what they are buying. It is up to the food and drug enforcement authorities to make certain, by spot checks and so on, that these products—be they squashes, or cordials, or orangeades or comminuted drinks-come up to the standards laid down in Parts I and II of the Schedule.
  Mr. Darling: The hon. Gentleman is evading the point.
  Mr. Scott-Hopkins: No, I think I am doing the opposite. These labelling Regulations are adding detailed requirements as to what must and must not appear on the labels of soft drinks and as to the size and presentation of these particulars. This is important. They must be easy to read and not, as at the moment, in various colours, with letters against various coloured backgrounds which sometimes make it difficult to read the lettering. Now, it will have to be either dark on a light background or light on a dark background.
  I suggest to the House that, although the hon. Gentleman does not agree, the Regulations go as far as they can to protect the consumer from misleading labels. I have already said that they require certain positive information to be given on the labels, and I hope that this will go to a certain extent to meet the hon. Gentleman's point.
  The Food Standards Committee recommended in its Report that Ministers should prohibit the use of testimonials or nutritional claims based on the carbohydrate content of soft drinks. The question of the control of claims goes, as the House will realise, much wider than just soft drinks or any other single commodity, and it is at the moment being studied by the Food Standards Committee as part of a general review of the whole of food labelling. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will go with me in agreeing that we must not deal with this point in relation to just one small section, because it has relevance over a much wider field. We thought it wise not to try to deal with this aspect of the matter in relation to soft drinks alone.
  Apart from the question of such claims, there are other matters to be
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  dealt with. At a late stage in our consultations, when the proposals had already taken shape, it was suggested to us that the Regulations should specifically provide for the manufacture of two fresh classes of soft drinks: one, the semi-sweet drink, and the other the low calorie drink, as they are now called. I am advised that there is a growing demand for them, some from people who wish to slim, some from people who seem to like that kind of semi-sweet drink.
  We felt that it would be wrong to delay the introduction of these Regulations while we had detailed consultations on these points, but my right hon. Friend has agreed that we shall consider them and, if necessary, make further Regulations to provide for these two specific categories when the consultations have been concluded.
  I hope that the House will agree that the Regulations go a great deal further than previous Regulations in giving more protection to the consuming public. They may not go so far as hon. Gentlemen opposite wish, but they go as far as we can with safety proceed at this moment, and they give a very much wider measure of protection than hitherto. The consumer can now know what he is buying, and the labelling and description requirements afford a great deal of added protection which has been lacking in the past. I hope, therefore, that the hon. Gentleman will be ready to withdraw his Prayer.
  Mr. William Ross: Will the hon. Gentleman satisfy me about this? I agree that there is an improvement as regards contents, about much of which the consumer will not know, and the additional protection which will be known to the consumer will be that which is on the label and in the proper description of the citrus drink, whatever it may be. But what about the labelling of the container?
  On page 10 of the Scottish Regulations, after stipulations about the size of the print, we find in paragraph 2(1) of Schedule 2:
  "Provided that where—

  (i) no words appear on the said container save on the cork, stopper or cap closing that container, or

  (ii) no words appear on the said container save for such words as are embossed or

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  fired on and signify solely any or all of the following:—

  (aa)the name and address of the manufacturer of the soft drink contained in the said container;

  (ab)the name and address of the bottler or packer of that soft drink;

  (ac)the name of that soft drink;"

  and there is then an indication of what the size of the lettering shall be, namely, not less than one-sixteenth of an inch.
  Mr. Darling: One could not get it much smaller than that.
  Mr. Ross: No. This is limited to the cap or something put on the stopper. What protection is there there for the purchaser in knowing what the contents are? Would it not be far better to stipulate that there shall be a label and on the label a declaration of contents which would be legible to anyone?
  To my mind, if one is going to say that the labelling is so much better and at the same time give a "get out" that one does not need to put a label on but should just cover the cap with something and in doing so limit oneself to very small print, one is not protecting the public, and if one says that one is, one is deceiving oneself and not the public.
  Mr. Scott-Hopkins: This applies to a very small field—to a type of cordial which is sold in a rather small type of bottle. The size of one-sixteenth of an inch is not all that small. If one examines the matter, I think one can safely say that it covers the point. The hon. Gentleman will agree that there are instances where it is even more difficult to read very small type on labels. This is a great improvement on the existing situation.
  Mr. Darling: The House will appreciate that I have not been convinced by the Parliamentary Secretary's explanation, but as these Regulations, as he says, are an advance on the previous ones, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Motion.
  Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

  OLD PEOPLE'S HOME, TWEEDMOUTH
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Ian Fraser.]
  10.46 p.m.
  Viscount Lambton: It has been my singular fortune today to make two speeches, one on the subject of the Keeler case and this one upon the old-age pensioners of Berwick-upon-Tweed. I once heard a story about an Italian who once by mistake addressed a congress of science delegates for 20 minutes on the importance of sport, but I think that the difference in this case is much greater than that and that there cannot possibly be any confusion of speeches on this issue.
  I want briefly to quote to the Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health from Local Authority Building Note 2 published by the Ministry of Health in July, 1962, and to do this in relevance to the building of the new old people's home at Tweed mouth in Northumberland. The Note reads:
  "B. Size of Homes
  A home should not be too large. Although this Note deals with homes for 30 to 60 places, a home of 60 places should be considered as the upper limit for size and suitable only for heavily built-up areas; smaller homes, between 30 and 50 places, are generally preferable, especially in rural areas."
  As a matter of fact, this is basically a rural area and could not be described as a built-up one, and it is planned that the new home there shall be built for 60 people. I am not sure that this is really the right sized home, and there is an argument which I shall present to my hon. Friend later against the building at the present time.
  The Note goes on:
  "C. Sites
  Sites should be easy of approach with the normal amenities of town or village life such as shops, churches, places of entertainment and public transport, near at hand. The home should be part of the community and integrated so far as possible with the daily life of the district. Isolated sites or too great a concentration of provision for the elderly are both to be avoided since it is important to preserve links with family and friends."
  I cannot help thinking that when those responsible for choosing the site made their choice they neglected section C of

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  the Note, for it is right outside the town of Berwick-upon-Tweed. The site is extremely exposed, and through a bridge, is exposed to all the elements, very windswept, and above all, it takes the people right out of the community in which many of them have lived all their lives. There are no shopping centres within immediate walking distance, and it is almost exactly contrary to the intention, so it seems to me, laid down by the Minister in his Note.
  There is one other thing I do not like about this new home. It is going to be built almost opposite a slaughterhouse and with a canning yard next to the slaughterhouse. One of those who advocated the building of this home, when asked by a newspaper man whether he did not think it would be singularly depressing for old people to look out of their windows and see a slaughterhouse, replied, "Not a bit", adding that they would have a lovely silver roof to look upon.
  This seems to me to put sense overboard in order to sustain an argument. One might as well say that it will be nice for old people to be comforted by the noise of animals bellowing before they are killed or by the smell of decaying flesh. I can think of nothing more depressing for old people than to overlook a slaughterhouse with its daily intake of animals which will never come out alive again.
  It would be a great pity at present to build a home which is too big for the area. It would be a great pity to isolate the old people outside the community in which they have lived their lives and in circumstances in which their attention cannot but be drawn to a slaughterhouse. I ask my hon. Friend, before granting any loans towards the construction of this home, to take into consideration the possibility either of maintaining the present home or of building a more modest home somewhere else in the area.
  10.57 p.m.
  The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health (Mr. Bernard Braine): The care of the elderly is an important branch of our social services and therefore I very much welcome my noble Friend's decision to bring before this House a proposal which affects the future care of old people in Berwick-
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  upon-Tweed, a proposal which he believes to be mistaken.
  I know that he has been concerned over a long period about the care of his elderly constituents, and I can therefore all the more understand his anxiety about the particular proposal he has described. But there are, however, limitations to what my right hon. Friend can do in a matter of this kind.
  It may be helpful if I explain the nature of my right hon. Friend's responsibility in the provision of residential care for the elderly, and to whom my noble Friend must look if he seeks to have this proposal modified. Under Section 21 of the National Assistance Act, 1948, local welfare authorities—that is to say, county councils and county borough councils—have a duty to provide residential accommodation for persons who, by reason of age or infirmity, are in need of care and attention which is not otherwise available to them.
  In discharging this responsibility, the local welfare authorities must have regard to the welfare of all those for whom the accommodation is provided, and their consideration of the broad question of the welfare of the home's future residents must necessarily include the important matter of siting.
  In other words, this is a responsibility of the local welfare authorities. A local welfare authority discharges its duties under Section 21 in accordance with a scheme which it has prepared and which has been approved by the Minister. Such schemes are prepared in general terms in accordance with guidance given by my Department, which does not extend to details about individual homes. Local welfare authorities are advised each year of the schemes for which my Department is prepared to recommend loan sanction during the year. My Department's decisions in this connection reflect, of course, the amount of capital investment available each year.
  When the Northumberland City Council first proposed to erect this home, as far back as 1951, as my noble Friend will recollect, capital and building materials were both in short supply, and the scheme could not then be included in the investment programme. Since then, I am very happy to say, the position has changed out of all recognition and there is now enough capital available

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  for all welfare building schemes which authorities are able to bring forward to the tender stage at their current rate of planning. The Northumberland County Council's revived proposal to provide a home at Tweed mouth was therefore accepted in 1962 for inclusion in the capital programme.
  When a local authority wishes to meet the cost of a scheme by raising a loan from the Ministry of Housing and Local Government—which is the course usually followed—a recommendation of loan sanction from my Department is necessary. This is, I am afraid, virtually the only control exercised by the Ministry of Health over the authorities' provision of old people's homes, for though my Department may advise an authority about siting and planning, my right hon. Friend could not consider himself justified in withholding a recommendation for loan sanction from the responsible local authority unless a serious matter of policy was involved.
  That brings me to the question which my noble Friend has raised tonight—the advice contained in my Department's Building Notes. General advice was given quite recently in a Building Note which my noble Friend quoted. It said:
  "Sites should be easy of approach with the normal amenities of town or village life, such as shops, churches, places of entertainment and public transport, near at hand. The home should be part of the community and integrated so far as possible with the daily life of the district. Isolated sites—".
  and here I entirely agree with my noble Friend about this important matter of sites—
  "or too great a concentration of provision of the elderly—"
  too many people in one place—
  "are both to be avoided since it is important to preserve links with families and friends."
  Such general advice may be supplemented, both regionally and centrally, if required, and indeed the principles expressed in the words I have just quoted from the Building Notes have been widely understood in welfare circles for some years.
  In recent months, I have had the privilege of travelling up and down the country visiting a number of new old people's homes. All of those that I have seen have seemed to be in many
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  ways delightful places, combining privacy and comfort with the requisite degree of oversight and care. My observations have confirmed me in the belief that old people are happiest when close to the normal bustle of human activity and when they can step outside the door for a short walk to the shops, or to church, or can watch the changing scene from their window.
  My noble Friend made certain criticisms of the proposed new home at Tweed mouth and asked about the guidance we give in our Building Note. He mentioned the subject of noise. I should point out that in the Note points made on the subject of noise refer to internal noise. There is nothing in the Building Note relating to noise or other activities outside. But, having regard to what I have said on the subject of siting, I must say that the siting of an old people's home near a slaughterhouse and tannery is a matter which would cause me to have very serious second thoughts. It certainly seems unfortunate, to say the least, that an old people's home should be sited in these circumstances at Tweedmouth.
  My noble Friend asked about the size of the proposed home. I understand that it is to be in the region of 60 beds. This is the upper limit of the numbers which we suggest. I must say, frankly, that we could not ask a local authority to revise its plans on that account alone. Nevertheless, we prefer to see smaller homes of about, on average, 40 to 45, and this is the kind of home which increasingly is finding favour with progressive local authorities up and down the country.
  We must, however, consider the problem from the point of view of the Northumberland County Council. It is the responsible welfare authority. It has decided—and it is not for me to question its decision—that the existing old persons' home in Berwick, "Green-haven", which is a former public assistance institution, is unsuitable for the care of the elderly and, secondly, that rebuilding is quite impracticable on the existing site.
  I am bound to say that clear advice has been given to local welfare authorities by my Department about former public assistance institutions. There are

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  at present about 34,000 elderly people still accommodated in such former institutions, and local authorities plan to reduce their numbers by 20,000 by 1972. It is, however, our view that, given the conditions in which the elderly have to be cared for in these establishments, the aim should be to replace them all within the next 10 years, with the exception of such few as can be made to give a service fully on a level with good contemporary standards.
  The Northumberland County Council has a duty to make proper provision for the old and infirm in its area, and it has rightly decided that "Greenhaven" must be replaced. I am advised that the County Council admits that the Tweed-mouth site has disadvantages, but the Council points out that its decision to build on this site was taken only after extensive investigations and inquiries about other sites had proved fruitless and that "Greenhaven" could not be rebuilt on its existing site because it would not be possible to provide alternative accommodation in the meantime for the existing 69 residents. The Council has therefore concluded that if a new home is to be provided in the borough in the foreseeable future it will have to be built at Tweedmouth.
  I understand that the County Welfare Committee considers that the Council could not be said to be satisfactorily discharging its duty to make proper provision for the elderly if it continued indefinitely to accommodate in premises which are clearly unsuitable nearly 70 old people who could be housed instead in a modern, comfortable home which, though less convenient in some respects, would nevertheless be reasonably accessible to the activities and amenities of
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  the town. I understand that at its next meeting on 1st August the County Council will consider the Welfare Committee's recommendation that it should reaffirm its decision to build the new home at Tweedmouth. There will, therefore, be a further opportunity for this matter to be considered.
  I entirely endorse the County Council's view that a new home is urgently needed and that the former institution must be replaced as soon as possible. In my right hon. Friend's view the new site is certainly not ideal, but it was chosen by the responsible local authority after full consideration as the best available. Although my Department has had misgivings about the selected site, this is essentially a local matter which should be settled by the responsible organ of local government, and there is no point of principle involved which would justify my Department in going back on the approval which it gave some years ago.
  Yet, having said all this, I fully appreciate my noble Friend's concern, and I therefore hope, and indeed expect, that due attention will be paid by the local authority to the representations which he and the townsfolk of Berwick have been making on this subject.
  I should like him to know, as members of the County Council themselves already know, that if the Council—and it is a matter for the Council—should decide on 1st August to put forward an alternative proposal, then my right hon. Friend will very gladly and speedily consider it.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Adjourned accordingly at five minutes past Eleven o'clock.

  CHILEAN GOODWILL MISSION
  CHILEAN GOODWILL MISSION
  MR. H. A. R. PHILBY
  MR. H. A. R. PHILBY
  BRAZIL (PORT OF PARA COMPANY)
  BRAZIL (PORT OF PARA COMPANY)
  BRITISH VISITOR'S PASSPORTS
  BRITISH VISITOR'S PASSPORTS
  MR. JOHN HUNTER
  MR. JOHN HUNTER
  BALLET COMPANIES (OVERSEAS TOURS)
  BALLET COMPANIES (OVERSEAS TOURS)
  EURATOM
  EURATOM
  KATANGA
  KATANGA
AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD
  Maincrop Potatoes (Stocks)
  Maincrop Potatoes (Stocks)
  Cereal Deficiency Payment (Mr. F. B. Monsell)
  Cereal Deficiency Payment (Mr. F. B. Monsell)
  Butter
  Butter
  Eggs
  Eggs
  Meat
  Meat
MINISTRY OF AVIATION
  Civil Parachute Instructors
  Civil Parachute Instructors
  Non-Scheduled Flying Operations
  Non-Scheduled Flying Operations
  Aircraft and Missile Projects (Cancellations)
  Aircraft and Missile Projects (Cancellations)
  B.O.A.C. (Corbett Report)
  B.O.A.C. (Corbett Report)
  Air Corporations (Accounts)
  Air Corporations (Accounts)
  U.S.S.R. (Minister's Visit)
  U.S.S.R. (Minister's Visit)
KENYA
  Financial Assistance
  Financial Assistance
ST. HELENA
  Agricultural Research
  Agricultural Research
NORTHERN RHODESIA AND NYASALAND
  Africans (Employment in South Africa)
  Africans (Employment in South Africa)
EDUCATION
  United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organisation
  United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organisation
  Primary Education (Central Advisory Council Inquiry)
  Primary Education (Central Advisory Council Inquiry)
NATIONAL FINANCE
  Revaluations (Charges)
  Revaluations (Charges)
  Federal German Government Annuities (Income Tax)
  Federal German Government Annuities (Income Tax)
MINISTRY OF HEALTH
  Invalid Tricycles
  Invalid Tricycles
  Mentally Subnormal (Scott Report)
  Mentally Subnormal (Scott Report)
  Safety of Drugs (Committee)
  Safety of Drugs (Committee)
  War Disabled (Two-Seater Cars)
  War Disabled (Two-Seater Cars)
  Leukaemia
  Leukaemia
  Prescriptions
  Prescriptions
  World Health Organisation
  World Health Organisation
HOSPITALS
  Deep X-Ray Equipment
  Deep X-Ray Equipment
HOME DEPARTMENT
  New Prison, Market Harborough
  New Prison, Market Harborough
  Criminal Statistics (Committee)
  Criminal Statistics (Committee)
SCOTLAND
  Hospitals (Deep X-Ray Equipment)
  Hospitals (Deep X-Ray Equipment)
  Beef and Veal
  Beef and Veal
EMPLOYMENT
  Monmouth and Glamorgan
  Monmouth and Glamorgan
PENSIONS AND NATIONAL INSURANCE
  Young People, Gateshead (Unemployment Benefit and National Assistance)
  Young People, Gateshead (Unemployment Benefit and National Assistance)
SCIENCE
  European Nuclear Energy Agency
  European Nuclear Energy Agency
  20 M.W. Dragon Project, Winfrith
  20 M.W. Dragon Project, Winfrith
NORTH-EAST
  Assistance
  Assistance
TRADE AND COMMERCE
  Prestwick Airport (Duty-free Industrial Estate)
  Prestwick Airport (Duty-free Industrial Estate)
  Industrial Development Certificates, Yorkshire and Lancashire
  Industrial Development Certificates, Yorkshire and Lancashire
SHIPPING
  Ship Repair Yards
  Ship Repair Yards
ROADS
  Moulton Lane, Boughton
  Moulton Lane, Boughton
BRITISH ARMY
  Parachute Descent, Salisbury Plain (Barometric Safety Devices)
  Parachute Descent, Salisbury Plain (Barometric Safety Devices)

Preamble
Reassembling after the Whitsun Recess, the House met at half past two of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Lichfield
The Viscount Samuel—Sat first in Parliament after the death of his father.

THE CLERK OF THE PARLIAMENTS
2.35 p.m.
Order of the Day read for the consideration of the letter from Sir Victor Martin Reeves Goodman, K.C.B., O.B.E., M.C., announcing the resignation of his office of Clerk of the Parliaments, as from June 16, 1963.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (LORD DILHORNE): My Lords, I beg to move that the letter be now considered.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL AND MINISTER FOR SCIENCE (VISCOUNT HAILSHAM): My Lords, as I said on the last day before the Recess, the House will have heard with the deepest regret of the resignation of Sir Victor Goodman, and also of the cause, which was his medical advice. It is now my task to move the first of the two Motions which stand in my name in regard to that resignation. That Motion reads as follows:
"That this House has received with sincere concern the announcement of the retirement of Sir Victor Martin Reeves Goodman, K.C.B., O.B.E., M.C., from the Office of Clerk of the Parliaments, and thinks it right to record the lust sense which it entertains of the zeal, ability, diligence, and integrity with which the said Sir Victor Martin Reeves Goodman executed the important duties of his Office."
It is obvious that a Motion of this kind is moved with mixed feelings of sorrow and pleasure. There is pleasure in recollecting Sir Victor's long and distinguished service, and in recording
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our appreciation of that service, which lasted for over 43 years. There is sorrow in parting with an old friend of us all, whose wise counsel has always been at the disposal of the Members of your Lordships' House. There will be many Members of your Lordships' House more competent than I to do justice to Sir Victor's continuous service. This dates back to 1920, when he first entered the Parliament Office. Over the years, he has earned enormous experience in all the branches of the office which serves the House. I think he will be especially pleased—and it certainly pleases me as a member of the legal profession—if I recall that he spent the major part of his time before he came to the Table in the Judicial Office of your Lordships' House. This department he made very much his own, and the smooth working of the administration of Judicial Business of the House has for a long time been his special concern.
I think, too, that I should recall that over a period of twenty years, Sir Victor was intimately connected with the care, editing and calendaring of the historical documents in our Record Office, which form together one of the great collections of historical documents in this country. I am particularly pleased to remind the House of this aspect of his work, because very soon the new Victoria Tower Record Repository will be declared open, and we shall all have the opportunity of seeing the fine work which has been done for the housing and preservation of our most valuable collection of records; and we shall recall, in doing so, that the origin of this particular enterprise can be dated, I think, to Sir Victor's own work in about 1937.
I should like also to mention another little-known but valuable service which Sir Victor has rendered, not to this House alone but to the whole Palace of Westminster: for he was the chief air-raid precautions officer and in charge of the Civil Defence and security arrangements of both Houses during the last war. He was also second-in-command of the Palace of Westminster Company of the Home Guard. It is no surprise that one who fought in the First World War in the Coldstream Guards, and was awarded the Military Cross for gallantry, should have been chosen for these important duties during the Second World

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War, and that here, too, he should have carried that burden with such distinction.
There is another extramural activity which I think it is right for me to mention. Sir Victor has been a Trustee of the British Museum since 1949, and since 1953 he has been a member of the Standing Committee of the Trustees. While we have the British Museum Bill in progress in our House, it is fitting for us to recall the debt which the British Museum owes to his careful discharge of that office.
I have dwelt on perhaps the least known of Sir Victor's services to the House and the public, because, in a sense, it would be superfluous for me to enlarge on his years here at the Table, where he has been well-known and so deeply loved in all quarters of the House. I will, therefore, add only this comment: I am sure that the House will join with me in wishing Sir Victor the good health which rest from his labours may give to him, and in hoping that he and Lady Goodman will come back from time to time to the House, where I know that from all sides and from all individual Members they will find a very warm welcome. I beg to move.
Moved to resolve, That this House has received with sincere concern the announcement of the retirement of Sir Victor Martin Reeves Goodman, K.C.B., O.B.E., M.C., from the Office of Clerk of the Parliaments, and thinks it right to record the just sense, which it entertains of the zeal, ability, diligence, and integrity with which the said Sir Victor Martin Reeves Goodman executed the important duties of his office.—(Viscount Hailsham.)
2.43 p.m.
EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, I rise, not only for myself but for the whole of my colleagues on these Benches, to support the Resolution which the noble and learned Viscount the Leader of the House has moved. The most adequate speech which the Leader of the House has made, covering all Sir Victor Goodman's activities known to the House, and some, perhaps, unknown to others, makes it difficult for me to speak in any detail; nor is there any real necessity, after the speech the Leader of the House has made.
It is always sad for the House to part with a Clerk of the Parliaments of the
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standard which has been maintained by Sir Victor Goodman, and this House has very great indebtedness always for the manner of service we get from the Clerk of the Parliaments and his two Assistants at the table, and we are always grateful to them all. I doubt whether there is any company of discussion and consideration such as we have here on such important and often legal matters which is better served than we are at the Table of this House.
The record which the noble Viscount has given to us of Sir Victor Goodman in so many departments makes us able to view him on his departure, as having been not only a great public servant to the House of Lords but also a notable servant to the nation at large. And for that we admire him. I join with the Leader of the House in his expressed good wishes adding our regret at the reason for Sir Victor's leaving, that of ill-health, and hoping that the rest from his work here will provide for him at least some measure of recovery, and that we shall see him again as a friend.
LORD REA: My Lords, I do not think I can add very much to what has been said in the last two speeches, but my friends on these Benches and I myself could not allow this occasion to pass without adding our tributes and our expressions of admiration and regret at this present position. This House has, I believe, had an extremely lucky, or perhaps skilful, choice of Clerks of Parliament throughout its history and Sir Victor has upheld that record with every sort of excellence which one would expect of him. But he has, also, a personal relationship with each one of your Lordships: his modesty, helpfulness, great knowledge and competence have won him our affection and admiration, and we are indeed sorry that it is through his hard work in the harness of his great office that he has broken down and is unable to continue. I am sure all your Lordships will join with me in saying that, while we say farewell to our late Clerk of the Parliaments we say only "Au revoir, Sir Victor"; and we hope, as the noble and learned Viscount has said, that he will often come back and please us with his presence, and that of his wife, and that he may enjoy good health and happiness for many years to come.
LORD SALTOUN: My Lords, before the Motion is put I rise to say in the first place that, as a new boy on the Cross-Benches I do not presume in the least to speak for the Peers on these Benches, but I have been a Back-Bencher all my life and I wish to say what has not been mentioned yet and which is not part of the Resolution: that, as a Back-Bencher, I shall always remember Sir Victor with affection for the singular patience with which, in spite of his ill-health, he has always dealt with me and, I think, every other Back-Bencher. That, I think, ought to be recorded and remembered, and I have risen with that in mind.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I hope your Lordships will bear with me if I add a few words to what has already been so eloquently and truly said about Sir Victor and the services he has rendered to your Lordships and to this House. I suppose that every Lord Chancellor enters upon his duties with considerable nervousness. I certainly did, and I should like publicly to express my very real gratitude to Sir Victor for the great help and valuable advice he has given me since I became Lord Chancellor.
It is perhaps appropriate that I, too, should mention the service which Sir Victor rendered in the Judicial Office of your Lordships' House from 1934 to 1949. I have heard from my predecessor Lord Simonds, and from former Judicial Members of your Lordships' House, of the especially valuable services which Sir Victor performed in that important department.
It is sad to part with friends and, despite his retirement after long service, I join with those who have expressed the hope that we shall continue to see something of him, and I am sure it is your Lordships' hope, as it is mine, that he will long enjoy his well-earned retirement.
On Question, Resolution agreed to, nemine dissentiente.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: I beg to move that the Lord Chancellor do communicate this Resolution to Sir Victor Goodman.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, I beg to move the second Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper. This Address to Her Majesty is in accordance with precedent and is designed to secure for Sir Victor, in the usual manner, the pension attaching to his Office. I beg to move.
Moved, That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty laying before Her Majesty a copy of the letter of the said Sir Victor Martin Reeves Goodman, K.C.B., O.B.E., M.C. and likewise of the Resolution of this House, and recommending the said Sir Victor Martin Reeves Goodman to Her Majesty's Royal Grace and Bounty.—(Viscount Hailsham.)
On Question, Motion agreed to nemine dissentiente: the said Address to be presented to Her Majesty by the Lords with White Staves.
Then, the Lord Chancellor having informed the House on May 30 last that Her Majesty had, by Letters Patent, appointed David Stephens, Esquire, C.V.O., to the Office of Clerk of the Parliaments, in the place of Sir Victor Goodman, K.C.B., O.B.E., M.C., the Letters Patent were read. The said David Stephens, Esquire, made the prescribed declaration (which declaration is set down in the Roll among the oaths of the great officers) in terms as follows:
"I, David Stephens, do declare that I will be true and faithful and troth I will bear to Our Sovereign Lady the Queen and to Her Heirs and Successors. I will nothing know that shall be prejudicial to Her Highness Her Crown Estate and Dignity Royal, but that I will resist it to my power and with all speed I will advertise Her Grace thereof, or at the least some of Her Counsel in such wise as the same may come to Her knowledge. I will also well and truly serve Her Highness in the Office of Clerk of Her Parliaments making true Entries and Records of the things done and passed in the same. I will keep secret all such matters as shall be treated in Her said Parliaments and not disclose the same before they shall be published, but to such as it ought to be disclosed unto, and generally I will well and truly do and execute all things belonging to me to be done appertaining to the Office of Clerk of the Parliaments."
After which he took his seat at the Table.

READING CLERK AND CLERK OF OUTDOOR COMMITTEES
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I have to acquaint your Lordships' House that by virtue of the power granted to me as Lord Chancellor by the Statute 5, George IV, Chapter 82, Section 3, I have appointed Robert Westby Perceval, Esquire, to be your Lordships' Reading Clerk and Clerk of Outdoor Committees in the place of David Stephens, Esquire, who has been appointed Clerk of the Parliaments.
I beg to move that this House do approve the appointment of the said Robert Westby Perceval to be your Lordships' Reading Clerk and Clerk of Outdoor Committees in the place of David Stephens, who has been appointed Clerk of the Parliaments.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to, nemine dissentiente.

SUMMER SPEED LIMIT SIGNS
2.54 p.m.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what steps it is proposed to take to enable road users the better to conform to the summer speed limit regulations in so far as new 50 miles per hour signs are required and also the obliteration of misleading signs such as "Speed limit ends", and upon whom is the cost of erection and obliteration to fall.]
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF TRANSPORT (LORD CHESHAM): My Lords, my right honourable friend the Minister of Transport is very conscious how important it is that motorists would not be under any misapprehension about this summer's temporary week-end speed limits of 50 miles per hour. The limit applies on most week-ends to the same 750 miles of trunk roads as in the last two years. On these week-ends the limit will be indicated as before by signs, and the cost of erecting, opening and closing them will be borne by the Minister, as will that of covering de-restriction
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signs. But on the five week-ends from July 26 to August 25 inclusive the limit will apply to all roads in England and Wales other than motorways and roads which have permanent lower speed limits. On these week-ends all 50 m.p.h. speed limit signs will be closed and the public will be informed, not by road signs, but by the wide publicity which is being arranged.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for clarifying this position. But will he go one step further and clarify a position which is causing some apprehension in the minds of many? This is the position of the de-restriction signs upon lamp-posted roads. Will the noble Lord say whether all these de-restriction signs are going to be obliterated?—because I think the noble Lord will agree that perhaps some motorists have not read the regulation, which is in conflict with the Highway Code, which they have read. The motorist is adjured in the Highway Code to take notice of de-restriction signs. What is the position of a motorist who is summoned for travelling at over 50 m.p.h. along a road which has de-restriction signs on lamp posts, and prays in his defence the Highway Code which has the sanction of Parliament?
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, I am very glad to shed some light upon that matter. Perhaps it will be convenient if, for clarity, I deal with the whole subject of de-restriction signs. First of all, where a road with a 30 or 40 miles per hour limit changes to a stretch with a limit of 50 m.p.h., the normal large de-restriction sign is covered over and a 50 m.p.h. sign put up in its place, which I think should make the position quite clear from then on. As to the lamp-posted roads with the little repeater de-restriction signs, which the noble Lord mentions, first of all, as I understand it, there is not a very great mileage of such roads included in the 750 miles on which the 50 m.p.h. limit is operative, but where they are included the little repeater signs are covered up with little bits of sacking or little bags.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, because I think this matter has caused a lot of misunderstanding. Would the noble Lord mind answering one further question? Am I right in saying that Road

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Traffic Acts as they stand at present do not make it obligatory for the de, restriction signs to be obliterated?
LORD CHESHAM: Without notice, I could not answer that question; but clearly, in logic, it would be ridiculous if they did not.

PICCADILLY TRAFFIC CONTROL AND PEDESTRIANS
2.59 p.m.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government, now that it has been decided to make Piccadilly permanently a one-way street, which has had the desired effect of substantially increasing the speed of the traffic flow, if they will have installed two sets of traffic lights, one approximately one hundred yards east of Bond Street, the other approximately one hundred yards west of Piccadilly Circus, to enable pedestrians to cross the road; whether they will further so arrange the phasing of the lights to include an all red phase of a duration which will enable pedestrians in the act of crossing to reach the other side of the road before the vehicular traffic is given the green light.]
LORD CHESHAM: The Ministry of Transport's traffic engineers will be discussing with the Police and representatives of the Westminster City Council tomorrow a number of possible ways of improving this one-way working system. Among these are the provision of signalled crossings at the two points suggested by the noble Lord, and also one to replace the uncontrolled crossing about 200 yards west of the Circus. If signalled crossings are provided reasonable time will be allowed for pedestrians to cross. But as Piccadilly is quite wide, those starting late in the "Cross now" period may have to wait on a central refuge.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My Lords, may I express my gratitude to the noble Lord for the helpfulness of his
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reply? Is he aware that speeds of motor cars along Piccadilly are now vastly in excess of the legal limit? Will he bear in mind that this situation should be rectified as soon as possible, and also take note of the suggestion I have made in the last part of my Question, that the "red" period must be sufficient to allow elderly gentlemen—may I say?—as well as the mile-a-minute people to get across the road?
LORD CHESHAM: Yes, my Lords. It is, of course, that kind of consideration which makes us eager to continue improving this and other such systems. The noble Lord will realise that, while we agree basically with what he says in the last part of his Question, with a wide road such as Piccadilly there is always somebody who begins to cross right at the end of the appropriate period, and if we were to allow for everybody the light would never change at all.
LORD WILMOT OF SELMESTON: My Lords, may I have permission to ask a supplementary question? In view of the increasing volume, density and speed of traffic in London and in big provincial cities, should the Government not consider the installation of lights indicating when pedestrians may cross the road and, as in some continental cities, indicating the period during which they may cross the road, and take steps to enforce that as part of the traffic light system?
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, while that point does not, perhaps arise strictly from the original Question, it is something that has been quite extensively considered and is already practised. And I can assure the noble Lord that such consideration is going on for the future. He may like to know that between the various countries who have other schemes which are by no means uniform, a good deal of international co-operative work is going on in the matter.
LORD WILMOT OF SELMESTON: My Lords, was I correct in understanding the noble Lord to say that the system is already instituted somewhere in this country, and that there are indications to pedestrians as to when they may or may not cross?
LORD CHESHAM: Yes, my Lords, in quite extensive instances.

RURAL BUS SERVICES
THE EARL OF SANDWICH: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will frame legislation to amend Section 135 of the Road Traffic Act 1960 so as to enable persons owning small buses to test the need for public transport in rural areas through provisional licences granted by traffic commissioners.]
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, the traffic commissioners, already have power to grant short-term licences, and where a new service would take no traffic from existing services it is unlikely that such a licence, or even one for a full term, would be refused. But where, as is more often the case, the new service would be likely, even if only for a short period of experiment, to take traffic from another service already running, I think it is in the interests of the public as a whole that the commissioners should apply all the criteria of Section 135 of the Road Traffic Act, 1960, to decide where the final balance of advantage lies.
THE EARL OF SANDWICH: My Lords, I do not know whether your Lordships are aware that Section 135 states that traffic commissioners, in exercising their discretion
"to grant or refuse a road service licence in respect of any routes and their discretion to attach conditions to any such licence shall have regard to the following matters …
"(b) the extent, if any, to which the needs of the proposed routes for any of them are already adequately served".
Are the Government aware of the enormous disparity which exists between the public interest quick and cheap rural transport and the extent to which that need is satisfied, for example, by the arrival of a large 32-seater bus in a small village week by week at a most inconvenient hour? Will the Government undertake a further study of this problem, which is causing great anxiety in rural areas? Finally, may I appeal to the noble Lord, Lord Morrison of Lambeth (I notice that he has left the Chamber for the moment), who piloted the Road Traffic Act, 1930, and who is responsible for the present state of affairs
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which has been carried on by subsequent legislation, to consider whether this is not a good time to have a revision of this law without going back to the internecine competition which drove small-scale enterprises into ruinous and often dangerous activities in those days?
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, I am not quite sure where to start; nor which half of the supplementary question was addressed to me and which to the noble Lord, Lord Morrison of Lambeth, to which, no doubt, he will reply in due course. Taking what I believe to be the noble Earl's main point, I do not think that any useful purpose would be served by taking steps to promote the internecine competition which he condemned in the course of his supplementary question. I think that to leave it to the discretion of operators of small buses to decide which routes they wish to try would not be serving the public, part of whose troubles with bus services is already due to the fact that not sufficient people use them.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord a simple question? Does the power of the traffic commissioners which he has mentioned extend to the licensing of small 12-seater buses, which on a number of these routes would be quite adequate to take people from village to railway station and from railway station to village, and where a 32-seater bus is a totally uneconomic proposition?
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, as I understand the position, it does.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: Yes. I asked the question because there is some doubt about it.
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the total overall loss on rural buses amounts to about £15 million a year? There is not likely to be much private competition for that kind of trade. But is he also aware that the vitally necessary thing in rural areas is for the Government to implement the recommendation of the Jack Committee?
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, I think that what I am aware of principally is that I have answered the noble Earl's Question about the possibility of new routes being developed by small buses,

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which does not require a change in the law and can be done, quite possibly with profit in all its senses, as things are.
THE EARL OF SANDWICH: My Lords, owing to the sterile and unsatisfactory nature of the Government reply I will refer to this matter on a later occasion.
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, it has always been my experience in your Lordships' House that any reply which is not the one desired is always "sterile and unsatisfactory."

COVENT GARDEN MARKET
3.7 p.m.
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government why they refused to allow the Covent Garden Market Authority to promote a Bill during the present session of Parliament, to remove the restriction imposed by Section 16 of the Covent Garden Market Act, 1961.]
THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD (LORD ST. OSWALD): My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for giving me the opportunity to explain why my right honourable friend did not give his consent to the Covent Garden Market Authority's promoting a Private Bill during the present Session. As your Lordships are aware, the practical effect of Section 16 of the Covent Garden Market Act, 1961, is to require the Authority to provide a market inside the Covent Garden Area. In May, 1962, the Authority sought the consent of my right honourable friend to the introduction of a Bill in November, 1962, to enable them to rebuild the market on a site to be designated later by Special Procedure Order. My right honourable friend refused this request, on the ground that, as Her Majesty's Government have always maintained, Parliament should not be asked to amend the Act until the Authority have examined all aspects of the problem, until they have fully consulted all the interests concerned, and until they have found a generally acceptable site. We also consider
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that the sort of subordinate legislation which such a Bill, at this juncture, would later entail is inappropriate for such an important matter, on which views differ widely and which affects many private rights and interests.
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for that fertile but unfruitful reply, may I ask him whether he recalls that in 1961, when we were considering this Bill, the Government faithfully promised that if the Market Authority wished to come back to revise this clause they would be given every assistance? The Market Authority now having done so, they have met with a blank refusal on the part of the Government until next year, thereby, in my view, unnecessarily wasting one year and making a total wastage of three years.
LORD ST. OSWALD: No, my Lords, the refusal was not blank. The refusal was on the grounds which I have described to-day, and it was a delay for the reason which I have described. The noble Lord is mistaken in thinking that in fact the course which he advocates would have expedited it. The position to-day is that the Authority are still considering possible sites, and it would still be in exactly the same position had my right honourable friend consented, in May, 1962, to the introduction of a Private Bill. If they can reach a generally acceptable decision within the next few months an amending Bill can be introduced at the beginning of the next Parliamentary Session.
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the Authority have made up their mind that they are not going to build at Seven Dials, and to have amended Section 16 in the way they desire would have saved a year when they do make up their minds? Moreover, under the Act the Market Authority must build the market within seven years. Three years will have elapsed before the Authority can possibly make a start. What will be the position of the Market Authority if they cannot comply with the seven-year requirement?
LORD ST. OSWALD: The second part of the noble Lord's question is hypothetical, and I am sure he does not expect me to answer it. In regard to the first part of the question, I can only reply that we did not, and still do not, think it

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right that the substantive Act of Parliament should omit any mention of the specific site; but we made it clear, and it is still clear, that the Authority would be free to look outside the Covent Garden area, and if there were general support for such a move my right honourable friend would not withhold his consent to a Private Bill giving the Authority the necessary powers. That is still the position.
LORD WILMOT OF SELMESTON: My Lords, are we to understand that the Seven Dials proposal will not be proceeded with?
LORD ST. OSWALD: My Lords, this is a question between the Market Authority and those with whom they are consulting. When they have reached their conclusions they will refer them to the Government. It would be quite improper for me to start commenting on them before then.
LORD WILMOT OF SELMESTON: Has the noble Lord any idea when the conclusions will be reached?
LORD ST. OSWALD: Not a close enough idea to give the noble Lord to-day.
LORD STONHAM: Does the noble Lord think that, if I keep on at it, he will eventually give me a "ripe" answer?

LABOUR DISPUTE IN SWAZILAND
3.14 p.m.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: My Lords, I beg leave to ask Her Majesty's Government a Private Notice Question: Whether Her Majesty's Government will make a statement about the situation in Swaziland.
THE MINISTER OF STATE FOR COLONIAL AFFAIRS (THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE): My Lords, I presume the noble Earl is really addressing his Question to the disturbances which have recently taken place. On May 20, 1,400 workers at the Havelock Asbestos Mine which, as I think noble Lords know, is the most important industry in the territory, went on strike for a minimum wage of £1 a day. The mine has, in fact, just increased the minimum wage from 3s. 9d. per day to 5s. 4d. a day.
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This rate is paid in addition to rations, and also to housing which is provided. Under Swaziland law, once a labour dispute has been reported to the Labour Commissioner by either party to the dispute, strikes are illegal for a period of 21 days thereafter. During this period there is machinery for conciliation and arbitration. On May 24 the strike leaders were warned by the Government that they were in fact in breach of the law, and on May 29 a board of inquiry was appointed to consider the cause and the circumstances of the strike, the wage structure and the machinery for settlement which existed immediately before the strike. Despite this, the strike continued and the Government, in face of a clear breach of the law, had no alternative but to arrest twelve of the strike leaders. This action was followed by attacks on the local police station and upon police property and a call by the Ngwane National Liberatory Congress for a general strike for a territory-wide minimum wage of £1 a day. The attacks were repulsed by means of tear smoke.
On June 10 the leaders of this new political Party, the National Liberatory Congress, led a procession of 1,500 Swazis armed with sticks towards the Secretariat at Mbabane. They were halted without much difficulty or the use of force, but a general strike developed in Mbabane, and later the entire labour force of 1,700 workers at the Big Bend Sugar Plantation also came out on strike. In view of the uncertainties of the situation and the strain under which the small police force have been working, it was decided to fly in a small contingent of police from the Bechuanaland Protectorate to help stabilise the situation until a battalion of troops could arrive from Kenya. The announcement that troops were arriving had a reassuring effect. The situation is now calm. There has been no loss of life, or serious damage to property. Order has been restored throughout the Mbabane area and there has been some resumption of work there and at the Havelock Mine. At Ubombo, which is the Big Bend plantation, the strike continues, though half the workers, I learned this morning, have expressed the wish to return to work. That is the situation up to the present time.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: My Lords, I am much obliged to the noble Marquess for his statement. May I ask him two questions? First of all, have there been any acts of violence against the person? The noble Marquess says there has been no damage to property, but has there been any damage to any persons, either strikers or police, who have been involved in these disturbances? Secondly, does the noble Marquess consider that, in view of these disturbances and the desirability of restoring peace and quiet in Swaziland, there should be an inquiry into the causes of these disturbances, which of course may be political as well as economic?
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: My Lords, as regards the first question, so far as I am aware there have been no serious acts of violence against the person. There has been no damage to property and no loss of life. There has been a little scuffling, but nothing more serious than that. As regards the second question, the board of inquiry to which I referred is in fact looking into the reasons for this strike, and I think I should remind your Lordships that there is also another board of inquiry which has been sitting on the question of the strike at the Ubombo sugar refinery, so the findings of these two boards of inquiry will be very helpful to us and when we have them we shall see what is behind these disturbances. The noble Earl suggested there might be some political content in this. My information is that the strike has in fact been a strike for more pay, but this new Party which has only recently come into existence, the Liberatory Congress, is strongly opposed to the constitutional arrangements which were announced by my right honourable friend at the end of last month. It has in fact linked these two things together in its opposition to the constitution in the form which we put forward.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: My Lords, do the terms of reference of the board of inquiry cover political as well as economic grievances? I think that is important.
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: No, my Lords, they do not. What they do is to ask the board to look into the whole situation, and to confine itself (I think I am right in saying) primarily to
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the question of labour conditions and so on. I do not think it has been instructed to look into the politics of workers. I do not think that would be a normal thing.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: That is unsatisfactory because if, as the noble Marquess says, one of the reasons for the disturbance is that a new Party has been formed which does not agree with the constitutional arrangements, is it not desirable that all causes of unrest should be examined by the board of inquiry and not merely the economic claims of the workers?
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: I take the noble Earl's point. I do not think I said that it was one of the reasons. What I said was that the strike is a strike for increase of pay, and that this Liberatory Congress in fact is trying to link this strike for increase of pay to dissatisfaction which it is expressing with constitutional reform. I hope I have made that clear.
LORD COLYTON: My Lords, I should like to support the noble Earl opposite in his request for an examination of the political aspects of this matter, because I think there is another issue. These present troubles are also to a certain extent due to the fact that the views of the tribal authorities, the views of the traditional authorities of Swaziland, were very largely ignored in the imposition of a Constitution which seems to have satisfied no one but in fact seems to have played into the hands of some of the more extremist leaders such as Dr. Zwane and Mr. Dlamini.
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: My Lords, I think this discussion is ranging rather wide. If noble Lords wish to put down a further Question on this point, I shall, of course, be only too pleased to reply to it. I take the points made both by my noble friend and by the noble Earl opposite. I would just say this to your Lordships: that so far as I know from all the information I have, this new Party, the Liberatory Congress, is a very small Party indeed. It is very difficult to assess the actual size of these things, but it is a very small Party, and it appears to be using this industrial strife, perhaps, as a political vehicle. That is the impression I have.

TOXIC CHEMICALS: PERSONAL STATEMENT BY LORD ST. OSWALD
3.23 p.m.
LORD ST. OSWALD: My Lords, I have to inform the. House that on May 30 I unwittingly misled the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, in my reply to one of his supplementary questions on the use of toxic chemicals in the garden. The substantive Question was concerned with the recent Ministry of Agriculture publication Chemicals for the Gardener, which contains selections from the list of approved chemicals suitable for garden use. It was not correct to say, as I did, that the Advisory Committee on Poisonous Substances used in Agriculture and Food Storage themselves had approved the booklet as such. At the time I believed this to be the case. I wish therefore to extend my apology to the noble Lord and to the House.
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for his statement. It was not I who was misled, but the House, but I am quite sure that there is nobody in this House who would have thought for one moment that the noble Lord had any intention to deceive. This is not possible with regard to him. I am very grateful to him. He will not be surprised that I shall now return to the attack with redoubled vigour.

WEIGHTS AND MEASURES BILL
3.25 p.m.
Report of Amendments received (according to Order).
Clause 21:
Transactions in particular goods
21.—
(2) The Board may by order make provision with respect to any goods specified in the order for all or any of the following purposes, that is to say, to ensure that, except in such cases or in such circumstances as may be so specified, the goods in question—

(a) are sold only by quantity expressed in such manner as may be so specified; or

(b) are pre-packed, or are otherwise made up in or on a container for sale or for delivery after sale, only if the container is marked with such information as to the quantity of the goods as may be so specified; or

LORD STONHAM LORD STONHAM moved, in subsection (2)(b), after "specified" to insert:
"including in the case of goods in liquid, the net drained weight of the solid content".
The noble Lord said: My Lords, I submit that the purpose of this Amendment is so clear that it is not necessary to go into any great detail. It is required in order to prevent the form which is now practised, particularly with imported canned goods, in which although the can of fruit, vegetables or sausages may be marked: "Net weight, 1 lb.", the actual solid content is, perhaps, only 4 ounces. At the Committee stage on a similar Amendment I gave details of a weights and measures inquiry which proved this to be the case. There is therefore no need for me to go over that ground again. The noble Lord, Lord Derwent, was good enough to assure his noble friend that the phrase "net drained weight" means something to the Board of Trade, and there is thus no practical difficulty about this Amendment as some noble Lords thought.
The noble Lord also confirmed that subsection (2)(b) of this clause gives the power to do what I was asking for; that the method of measuring net drained weight would be laid down by the Board, who would not hesitate to use this power whenever they considered it necessary and practicable. That might be thought to be good enough, but I am moving the Amendment because I feel that if it is in the Bill the Board are far more likely to make regulations about the drained weight of contents, than if it is not. I would emphasise that under the Amendment, the Board would still make regulations only in cases where they considered it necessary and practicable.
It was suggested in opposition to my Amendment when I moved it in Committee, that, particularly in the case of soft fruits, some of the natural juices of the fruit find their way into the syrup in the canning process. That is perfectly true, but it is not relevant to the purpose of the Amendment, which is intended to provide a purchaser with an indication of the solid content available after drainage in a prescribed manner. Housewives, and particularly those who from time to time have complained, are not so much interested in what the packer puts into the can, as in the quantity of usable fruit which comes out of it. In one case

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which was investigated by the weights and measures inspectorate a tin of strawberries marked "15½ ounces, net weight" contained just 14 strawberries, weighing after drainage 4¾ ounces, and of course over 11 ounces of syrup. The price of the strawberries averaged 2½d. per berry. Other tins of the same brand were a little better.
This Amendment does not aim merely at protecting the consumer, the housewife and that kind of person, but aims also at protecting honest traders who do give a fair deal and put a proper quantity of fruit, meat or fish into their cans. If this Amendment were accepted it would prevent, or would go a long way towards preventing, the kind of fraud I have indicated; it would protect the housewife, and it would protect the honest trader. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 21, line 16, after ("specified") insert ("including in the case of goods in liquid, the net drained weight of the solid content").—(Lord Stonham.)
THE MINISTER OF STATE, BOARD OF TRADE (LORD DERWENT): My Lords, in answering this first Amendment may I make one general remark? I am in some difficulty in dealing with some of these Amendments which have been tabled in precisely the same form as Amendments which were discussed in Committee. In practically every case the Government's reasons for resisting them, in those cases where I did resist them, are exactly the same as they were on the Committee stage. I am afraid, therefore, that some of your Lordships who heard the Committee stage may find my replies rather tedious. But I must reply to them at length (though I will be as short as possible) because some noble Lords were not here on the Committee stage and they must he gone into again.
As regards this Amendment, as I explained on the Committee stage, in my view it is entirely unnecessary. Subsection (2)(b) of Clause 21 gives the Board power to provide by order that containers shall be marked with such information about quantity as the Board shall specify, and this would include net drained weight. Clause 21(4)(f), gives the Board power to provide the way in which net drained weight and other quantities
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shall be determined. Some food packers already state the drained weight, particularly where the food is packed in brine. There is nothing in the Bill—and the noble Lord knows this, of course, perfectly well—to prevent them from continuing to do so, provided that, where the liquid is also a food, a statement of the total quantity of food is also marked on the container.
In our view, however, it would not be appropriate to lay down a requirement of universal application—and, in spite of what the noble Lord, Lord Stonham, says, that is what his Amendment would seek to do—that in every case this must be put on the container. That is why the provision has been made in Clause 21 for the Board to require the information in those cases where it may be appropriate. And I can assure the noble Lord that the Government will use these powers if they consider it necessary and where they consider it practicable—and where it is practicable is the more important point, I think, in dealing with the noble Lord's Amendment. It is our view that each kind of food in liquid, whatever it may be, must be dealt with separately by the Board, case by case.
When it comes to knowing, in regard to any particular commodity, what net drained weight is, the Board will have to make different regulations according to what is in the tin—and that is not an easy task. May I take the case of pineapple? I am advised that it is quite possible (I am not saying it is so, but I think it is quite likely) that, in a given size of tin containing pineapple chunks, the absorption of liquid is slightly different from that in a tin containing pineapple rings. Are we to say that, to arrive at the net drained weight, the pineapple is to be weighed immediately the tin is emptied? Are the chunks or rings to be weighed then, or are we to wait five minutes or ten minutes? Or is the weight to be that of the pineapple put into the tin, and so on? You cannot have regulations of universal application. The Board of Trade intend to use these powers, but in some cases they will not be practicable, and that is why we are not prepared to accept any Amendment of general application such as that moved by the noble Lord, Lord Stonham.
May I add one further word, although he is not here, for the benefit of my

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noble friend Lord Conesford and the noble Baroness, Lady Horsbrugh? They raised the question, as has been mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Stonham, of the meaning of "net drained weight". They caught me rather on one foot in answering them last time as, until I read it, I had not followed the purport of their question. The term "net drained weight" does not appear anywhere in the Bill, but I can reassure both of them that if the phrase "net drained weight" is used in an order or regulation on any particular commodity we shall see that it is stated and defined in such a way as to make quite clear what is meant in the ease of that particular commodity; so I do not think they need worry. There will be a definition with the order or regulation. I do not think I have anything else to add, except that the reasons against this Amendment are the same as I gave in Committee, and I cannot accept it.
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, I heard the noble Lord's remarks in Committee, and I am bound to say that I did not find what he said very tedious, though I did find it very disappointing. I thoroughly disagree with him when he says that this would be a universal requirement. I would point out that subsection (2) of Clause 21 begins:
"The Board may by order make provision with respect to any goods specified in the order for all or any of the following purposes, that is to say, to ensure that, except in such cases or in such circumstances as may be so specified …".
Then it refers to the goods in question—and, of course, there is a long list of the different types, to which I was proposing to add another. It is not correct for the noble Lord to say that I am asking for a universal requirement. If by that he means that I am asking for it to be applied to all goods of a particular type, of course I am. Anything else would be quite unthinkable. That is the only sense in which it would be a universal requirement. So either the noble Lord has mistaken me if that is what he meant, or he has been wrongly advised.
I admit that there are some practicable difficulties, as there are in all weights and measures administration, but this is no new thing. In America they are quite accustomed to this kind of marking, and it is one of the normal protections for
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the consumer. I really cannot see why it should not be in this Bill. Nevertheless, as the noble Lord has said, the power to do this resides in the clause, and if it cannot be specifically in the Bill now I have no doubt that we shall return to it later (or, if we do not, other people will have to return to it later) when this Bill becomes an Act, and, if necessary, ensure that those powers are used. I ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
3.37 p.m.
LORD STONHAM LORD STONHAM moved, in subsection (2), after paragraph (d) to insert:
"are not sold in containers or wrappings which, without reasonable cause, falsely or misleadingly suggest that the quantity of goods they contain is substantially greater than in fact it is".
The noble Lord said: My Lords, I beg to move Amendment No. 2. On this occasion I would point out to the noble Lord, Lord Derwent, that this Amendment, like most other Amendments I am moving on Report, is not the same as that which was moved in Committee. On this particular Amendment I must say that I am indebted to the noble Lord, Lord Airedale, for the advice which he was kind enough to give me; and, as your Lordships will be aware, we both have somewhat similar Amendments on the Paper. When I moved the Committee stage Amendment on deceptive containers I referred to three types of swindle. The first was the straightforward swindle—the giant packet, only three parts full; the second was what I called the swindle seductive, with large and perhaps beautiful packages enshrining a tiny bottle; and the third the swindle secretive, where you have a container with a hollow bottom or a false lid.
The noble Lord, Lord Hawke, welcomed this Amendment as an old friend, which he said he still supported in principle, but he was worried about the interpretation in a court of law of the word "substantially"—although apparently there is no difficulty anticipated where this word is used in other parts of the Bill. But the noble Lord, Lord Hawke, posed the genuine problem of loose, powdery substances which shake down during transit, or at least before they get to the customer—and that largely applies to goods like soap powders and detergents. I have looked into that, and, because of certain

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strictures which I uttered on the Committee stage, I am glad of this opportunity of withdrawing them. It is the case that when you take some of these substances and empty a carton which is apparently only three-quarters full and then try to put the contents back into the carton again, you may fill it up entirely and still have some left over. I would say that the present Amendment, by the inclusion in it of the words "without reasonable cause", overcomes that difficulty. If it is a volatile, shake-down product, there is "reasonable cause" for the carton being partially empty by the time it reaches the purchaser. But there is no "reasonable cause" for the outsize boxes that contain little bottles of perfume, for the hollow bottles of cosmetics, for the outsize cartons for toothpaste or shaving cream, or for the excessive sizes of some chocolate boxes compared with their contents. If my Amendment is accepted it would catch these people as they deserve to be caught.
The noble Lord, Lord Derwent, argued, quite rightly, that the Bill as it stands requires packages to be marked with the net weight or volume or number of contents so that the buyer will know the quantity he is buying. That is perfectly true. But I submit that it is no answer to the problem of deceptive packages. Time and again it has been proved by tests that it is the big package that catches the eye. If there are two packages of the same goods, with exactly the same contents, both marked with the same net weight of, say, 1 lb., one carton being larger than the other, the larger carton will sell 50 per cent. more than the other. So the net weight requirement does not really cover the point of deceptive packaging; nor does the requirement that certain goods must be pre-packed only in a limited range of quantities. The art of deceptive packaging is really the art of the three-card trick: find the lady! You see it; and it is not there. The people who do it know this quite well.
The Government, in opposing this Amendment in Committee, used two further arguments which cancel each other out. The first was that, without this Amendment, the Board have sufficient power in the Bill to protect the public against deception through packaging; the second was that it would not
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be workable to prosecute people for misleading by having too large a package. The noble Lord said this in the OFFICIAL REPORT, Vol. 249, at column 115. If that second argument is correct, it is an admission that the powers in the Bill are insufficient. The Government just cannot have it both ways. The inclusion of the words "without reasonable cause" protects the honest trader and Board of Trade regulations, defining not the maximum size of container but the maximum percentage difference allowed between the overall size and the size of the contents, would be workable and would protect the buyer against deception. I submit that if the Government wish to provide that protection they will accept this Amendment, which I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 21, line 23, at end insert the said subsection.—(Lord Stonham.)
LORD AIREDALE: My Lords, I should like to support this Amendment. This Amendment is similar, except in one respect, to an Amendment moved in Committee; but, as the noble Lord, Lord Stonham has said, the words "without reasonable cause" have now been added, and this, in my submission, makes a world of difference to the Amendment. I think the Minister in his rejection of the Amendment in Committee used two limbs to his argument; one was that certain goods were inclined to shake down or shrink in a package. The noble Lord, Lord Stonham, has dealt with that. The Minister also mentioned other types of goods which were liable to swell inside the package if there was humidity in the atmosphere. I suppose that rice and similar types of goods would be inclined to swell. In my submission the addition of the words "without reasonable cause" overcomes this difficulty with goods of that kind because there would, in those cases, be reasonable cause for the manufacturer's not filling the package fully.
The second leg of the Minister's argument in Committee was that the Amendment was unnecessary because of the requirement to mark the net weights on packages. I am perfectly prepared to agree that in the case of goods such as breakfast food or detergents, things which the housewife buys regularly each week, the marking of the net weight on the package may end the evil of "giant"

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packages, because the housewife will come to recognise the proper sizes of packages of detergent of a certain net weight. But it obviously does not help in the case of goods such as boxes of chocolates, because already, so far as my inquiries in the confectionary trade have led me to believe, 90 per cent of boxes of chocolates are marked with the net weight of the chocolates: nevertheless, that has not prevented the bottom layer of the box of chocolates consisting largely of paper shavings instead of chocolates. The noble Duke also, I think, referred to this evil on two occasions on earlier stages of this Bill. There is a clear instance that if the Government really want to end this evil of packages too big for the amount of goods they contain, they should accept this Amendment, and I have the greatest pleasure in supporting it.
LORD DERWENT: My Lords, I should like to answer both the noble Lords' Amendments at the same time. They deal with the same point. As the Amendments are slightly different from those moved at the Committee stage, so will be my answers. But, I should like to deal with the arguments at length. I am afraid this is one of the Amendments that I cannot accept. I explained at some length in Committee why we do not think it necessary or practicable—and I keep on coming back to this question of practicability—to have powers in this Bill relating specifically to misleading packaging. As has already been mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Stonham, the Bill provides two main requirements which between them will do a great deal to prevent the customer from being deceived on how much is in the packet. First, the Bill protects the consumer from being deceived, by ensuring—and this point was mentioned also by the noble Lord—that he is informed of the quantity of goods within the package, which will have to be clearly marked. In most cases this will be done by requiring the container to be marked with the quantity of its contents by weight, measure or number as the case may be. The regulations to be made under Clause 21(4) will ensure that this marking is both conspicuous and legible.
Secondly, there is the requirement—also mentioned by the noble Lord—that many of the staple commodities which are sold on a very large scale must be pre-packed only in a limited
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range of quantities. That is a great protection for the consumer. We believe that these two requirements will give consumers substantial protection against deceptive containers. I would remind noble Lords that this was also the opinion of the Molony Committee, who in paragraph 812 observed the two requirements in the Bill "with interest and approval" and considered that, if wisely used—and that is how we intend to use them—these powers would curb the evil of deceptive containers. We cannot accept—and I repeat what we said on the Committee stage—that because a package is not filled to the brim this means that the packer is deceiving the consumers.
In a number of cases, as the noble Lord said, where packages are filled to the top by the packer the contents may shake down and consolidate before they reach the consumer. It is a feature of modern high-speed filling and packaging that in many cases a space is left at the top of the container. It may be that the contents are liable to swell owing to changes in humidity and temperature, or that a space helps to prevent spilling when the container is opened. I believe that many—one might almost say, the great majority—of the complaints which have been made about deceptive packages have referred to products such as detergents or toilet preparations, which will in future have to be marked with their quantity under this Bill. I realise that noble Lords in framing their present Amendments have attempted to deal with some of my objections in Committee by inserting the qualifying words "without reasonable cause". But this would not make the Amendments any easier to accept. Indeed, we take the view that these words only add uncertainty. We could not specify in advance in an order what was a "reasonable cause" and, until the courts have interpreted this in relation to any particular kind of product or package, traders would not know whether their packaging was complying with the law.
About the drafting of the Amendment, may I add, with the greatest respect, and using the word in its slang sense, that both of the Amendments appear to contain a nonsense, in that it is suggested by the wording that,

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if there is reasonable cause, a container may falsely suggest that the quantity is greater than it actually is. We fully sympathise with the desire of both noble Lords to ensure that there is adequate power in the Bill to protect the consumer in matters of this kind. We have had another careful look at this question and I have had a careful look at everything said in Committee, and the Government feel sure that the powers already in the Bill are adequate. We do not believe that the provisions suggested in the Amendments are necessary or desirable or workable. I hope, in view of what I have said and of the fact that we have looked into this again, that the noble Lord, Lord Stonham, and the noble Lord, Lord Airedale, when he comes to his Amendment, will be willing to withdraw their Amendments.
LORD AIREDALE: My Lords, will the Minister deal with the case of boxes of chocolates? Does the Minister agree that boxes of chocolates are already, in nine cases out of ten, marked with their net weight and in many cases the bottom layer of the box is not all chocolates but largely shavings? Does the Minister accept that as being a satisfactory situation or do the Board of Trade wish to end this foolish practice? Will the Minister deal with this point, because it is important?
LORD DERWENT: My Lords, I can deal with the point only with the permission of the House. It is perfectly true that sometimes, though certainly not in nine cases out of ten, the bottom of boxes of chocolates is partly empty. I accept that for children, or for the noble Duke, the Duke of Atholl, when he was a child—he is no longer one, I understand—this might be deceptive, but I do not think that most people are in fact deceived. If one is buying an expensive box of chocolates, a fancy box with wonderful ribbons and bows, running to several guineas, one is paying a lot for the box. In many cases, one buys the box and then has a couple of pounds of chocolates put into it. In the case of cheaper boxes, the manufacturers of boxes cannot turn out intermediate sizes in enormous quantities. People want to buy a nice looking box and all sorts and sizes of boxes may be filled as ¼ lb. or
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½ lb. or 1 lb. boxes. I feel that, if the amount of chocolates is legibly marked, no one over the age of the noble Duke when he was deceived is likely to be taken in. I do not think that we should be prepared to alter the Bill for one particular commodity, when it is not really necessary.
LORD HAWKE: My Lords, I am sorry that my noble friend has had to reply as he did, but he has not surprised me. Though I have been in principle in favour of Amendments of this nature from the beginning of the Bill, I have realised the whole time that one was up against the impossibility of trying to make people honest by legislation. From what the Minister has said, I am satisfied that it is impossible to frame an Amendment which would really achieve the ends we seek. I think that we shall just have to leave it to the steady improvement of human nature to improve the situation, rather than put something into Statute law which would probably have no effect on the rogues and would handicap those who are not rogues.
LORD CROOK: My Lords, I doubt whether I would have risen to speak until I listened to the noble Lord, Lord Hawke, and I think that what he said is a plea that Parliament should pack up and go home and never bother again. Most of the arguments he advanced might just as well be applied to the Transport Act. Why have a 30 m.p.h. speed limit? Why not leave it to the motorists and their honesty. The plain truth is that all legislation is aimed at making dishonest people honest, at making people do things in the interests of the social life of the country, and this is no different from any other.
I am bound to say that I have some sympathy with the reply which the noble Lord speaking for the Government addressed to us. Before I sit down, may I try to help him in the dislike he said he had for trying to put "misleading" into the Bill? I can understand the difficulties of trying to interpret the word "misleading". I follow the importance of what he said about deceiving the consumer and about the filling of packets in factories affecting the size of the contents. I have been in detergent factories and seen something of the problem mentioned by my noble friend who moved this Amendment. I know that all purchasers

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of goods want everything both ways. They want to buy a completely filled packet and want to be satisfied that they have the lot. On the other hand, when they open the packet and the contents spill all over the kitchen table, they do not like it a bit.
However, when we come to other things, particularly those to which the noble Lord, Lord Airedale, referred, we are getting towards the word "misleading", whether we put it into the Bill or not. If I may say so with respect to the noble Lord, Lord Derwent, his argument about the inability to produce different sized boxes is not completely true. I will not give a free advertisement, or the opposite, in this House to certain brands of chocolates, but I have seen them packed and I know it is possible to pack chocolates—not those in the fancy boxes with ribbons, the kind of thing which some of your Lordships may buy and which some of us have never more than seen in the shop windows, but the ordinary kinds that are pushed on to the British public by advertisement on the advertising line in television—in cardboard boxes of 1 lb., ½d. and ¼ lb., each of which sizes will always leave room for three or four chocolates at the bottom, with lots of nice crinkly paper to fill up the rest.
It is clear—and I have discussed the subject with packaging authorities—that if the particular make I have in mind were to make up its mind to take one quarter of an inch off its size on its 1 lb., ½ lb. and ¼ lb. boxes, it would stop the deluding of the women—or rather the men who buy them for the women—by these boxes of chocolates which appear to have many more in them than they actually have.
LORD HAWKE: My Lords, I should like to ask the noble Lord a question. He appears to be very knowledgeable on this subject, and this question arises purely from curiosity on my part. Is the specific gravity of a soft-centred chocolate the same as that of a hard-centred one? If not, clearly the boxes would have to provide on occasions for packing entirely hard centres and on others soft centres.
LORD CROOK: I am bound to say that if the noble Lord shows himself so
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intelligent on specific gravity, when I come to talk again of the specific gravity of beer I shall ask for his support in the Division Lobby. Of course, it is not true that they are the same. I am glad the noble Lord raised this point, because I had not thought of it. What does this particular firm do? It says: "We will always put the same chocolates in every box to help you to pick which one you want, whether it is cherry centred, coffee centred or a nut—we will print a picture on the top to show you". So every time there is put into the box the same specific gravity. And now that I have the noble Lord with me on chocolates and beer, he must come with us on the Amendment we have moved.
I said that I thought the noble Lord who replied for the Government had a point, and I see it, in the words,
"Without reasonable cause … falsely or misleadingly …"
As he said, when you turn the negative into the positive, it could mean that with reasonable cause you could "falsely or misleadingly suggest". But it would be easy for the Board of Trade, or the noble Lord on their behalf, to accept an Amendment which would deal with this completely. I am sure that if I make this suggestion my noble friend who moved the Amendment would be happy to accept it, because I believe we can meet every single point the noble Lord made in replying for the Government. If he accepted an Amendment with the words "falsely or misleadingly" left out, so that we were given an undertaking that in the final stage of the Bill we had in the words,
"are not sold in containers or wrappings which, without reasonable cause, suggest that the quantity of goods they contain is substantially greater than in fact it is",
it seems to me that there would be a reasonable compromise between the kind of view that the noble Lord who moved the Amendment put up and that put up by the Government. So far they have only stonewalled; and, hating stone walls, I make my offer of a nice soft end.
THE DUKE OF ATHOLL: My Lords, before my noble friend replies—
LORD DERWENT: With respect, I would remind my noble friend that I cannot speak again.
THE DUKE OF ATHOLL: I am sorry. I must say that I did not like my noble friend's line of argument that chocolates were not worth considering in isolation. Most commodities are bought mainly by adults, who, one presumes, are more or less capable of looking after themselves, but chocolates are bought to a substantial extent by children, who are very trusting; therefore, when they see a box of chocolates they presume that it is full of chocolates, and not three-quarters full of chocolates and one-quarter full of shavings. It would be a great pity if the only reason why an Amendment of this kind were not accepted was because it would apply only to boxes of chocolates. After all, many far more curious products than chocolates are mentioned in the various Schedules. I cannot remember them, but I know that some of the products mentioned there I have certainly never heard of. They appear to be worthy of a mention on their own. Why chocolates should be singled out and not have this particular form of protection inserted in the Bill, I cannot understand.
I should also like to assure my noble friend that it is perfectly possible to make boxes of any size, and the types of chocolates which go into the boxes of which the noble Lord, Lord Crook, and I are thinking are always the same, year in and year out. They have been identically the same ever since I remember eating chocolates. The manufacturers have presumably weighed the ¼ lb., or the ½ lb., in which case you get two of each, or the 1 lb., in which case you get four of each, since the particular brands were first put on the market. So I cannot see, except that traditionally the box has always been of that size, why the box cannot be slightly reduced in size and the shavings left out.
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, I join the noble Duke in reminding the noble Lord, Lord Derwent, that chocolates are not the only things with which we are concerned in regard to this misleading package. The field is vastly greater than that, and I listed them. The noble Lord, quite properly from his point of view, carefully ignored mention of any of them, because he is well aware that they establish the case for this Amendment beyond all reasonable doubt. Having said that, I do not want to perpetrate—
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and I am sure this goes for the noble Lord, Lord Airedale—a nonsense in law. It is, however, remarkable that what the noble Lord has called a nonsense in law is sensible in practice—and not for the first time. Everyone is aware of what the noble Lord has in mind—indeed, I described it: that when it is impossible, because of the nature of the contents, to prevent the contents from shaking down so as to leave some empty space that is a reasonable cause for making the container substantially larger than the contents. But that is the only kind of case one can think of where there is a reasonable cause. If we let this matter go by default, then we are almost conniving at, and we are certainly acceding to, what is a ramp.
I believe that the basic objection of the Government to this proposal is not because of any form of words we have used, because another form of words could be found, but because they are aware that the trading interests who do this kind of thing are extremely rich and very powerful. I am sorry that we are not, at least at this stage, to take the opportunity to put an end to these rackets. I do not ask my noble friends to divide on an Amendment which, however right in substance, is a nonsense in law—
LORD DERWENT: A nonsense in words, I meant.
LORD STONHAM: I will read Hansard to-morrow; but the noble Lord indicated that it was what was called a nonsense in law. I do not accept that it is a nonsense in fact. In any case, there is the chance that if the Liberal-Labour coalition continues we may find another form of words with which to come forward on Third Reading. With that hope, I ask your Lordships' leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
4.9 p.m.
LORD STONHAM LORD STONHAM moved in subsection (2), after paragraph (d) to insert:
( ) are not sold or offered or exposed for sale without the maximum price per unit of quantity correct to the nearest complete penny being made known to the buyer or prospective buyer in such terms and in such manner as may be so specified".
The noble Lord said: My Lords, I beg to move this Amendment, which, although

1117
having the same purpose, is substantially different from an Amendment moved in Committee, and which, indeed, has been revised so as to meet, in our view, all the objections put forward by the Government to the previous edition. It now refers to the maximum price per unit of quantity and requires it to be declared to the nearest penny, and it is left to the Board of Trade to determine the manner in which the price should be specified. Out purpose in moving this Amendment is to provide enabling power for the Board of Trade to require the declaration of price per unit of quantity in such cases as may appear to them to be desirable and appropriate. In many cases the consumer cannot compare values unless he is given this information, because the declaration of quantity and price of the article are not enough unless the price of a simple and well-understood quantity is also known.
These problems are constantly faced by shoppers, and the mental arithmetic involved in determining the price per lb. is far beyond the competence of the average shopper. Without this information, however, it is impossible to compare values, and no system of sales control in the interests of the consumer is complete, or even adequate, without a declaration of a price per unit of quantity. This principle is of the greatest importance, of course, in the case of joints of meat or fish, and commodities weighed up from bulk in the presence of the buyer. The declared weights often involve complicated fractions of a pound, or even of an ounce, and in the absence of a declaration of price per unit of quantity the buyer has no redress if, as often happens, he is overcharged. It is also of increasing importance in the case of pre-packed goods offered for sale in supermarkets and marked only with the quantity and the price of the pack.
When I moved a somewhat similar Amendment in Committee the noble Lord, Lord Derwent, opposed it principally on three grounds. First, that it would require the calculations of price in elaborate fractions of a penny; second, that it would make it difficult for butchers to have a tray of 9d. chops or for fishmongers to have a tray of cutlets of fish all at one price; and, third, that it would require packets of goods to be marked on the rack itself with the declared price per unit, which would
1118
raise difficulties when the price went up or went down or when a discount, such as 3d. off, was operated. In its revised form my Amendment clearly overcomes the first objection relating to fractions of a penny and clarifies the intention as to the manner of making known the price per unit. With regard to these difficulties in relation to the 9d. chops, I would point out to the noble Lord that the trader knows perfectly well the price per lb. at which he is selling, or he would soon be out of business, and the method of selling which the noble Lord apparently desired to protect in refusing the Amendment before is, in fact, very little use and must be discouraged, for the very good reason that it is quite illegal. For nearly 30 years sales of meat have been unlawful unless the meat has been marked with its weight or has been weighed in the presence of the buyer. So that, as I am sure the noble Lord is aware, when he sees that tray of chops all at 9d. or 1s. (and he must be absolutely astounded to see them at that price, unless they are very small chops) it is not legal to sell them without the weight being shown.
I have in my hand a simple ticket, which I took off a small packet of liver sausage which was purchased in a store and which has all the requirements asked for in this Amendment: the net weight, 4 oz.; the price per lb., 3s.; the selling price, 9d. That is all we are asking for in this Amendment. It so happens that on Saturday I was in an ordinary butcher's shop, a very busy one, and I saw one of the younger members of the staff constantly weighing up joints of meat. He was doing it very quickly. All he did was to put a joint on a scale, which told him not only the weight but the actual selling price of the joint; and very quickly indeed—in a matter of seconds—he wrote down on a ticket the selling price and the weight, put the ticket on the joint which someone else carried to the window where the joints were exposed for sale. What I am asking for is, therefore, common practice in most supermarkets and it is also common practice with the ordinary good retail butcher who is abiding by the law and showing the weights.
The other objection which the noble Lord raised was an assumption that the Amendment requires individual packets

1119
to be marked with the price per unit. He was entirely in error in thinking that that was, in fact, necessary, because the Amendment leaves it to the discretion of the Board of Trade to prescribe not only to which classes of articles, if any, the requirement of this Amendment shall apply, but also, the terms and manner in which the price per unit shall be made known to the buyer. It is not for me to say the manner in which the Board of Trade will specify that the price per unit shall be made known to the buyers in the case of different commodities, but in the kind of case to which the noble Lord referred they could require the price per unit to be made known by marking it on a show ticket associated with the goods; for example, "1 lb. at 2s. per lb.", or whatever the price is; or by marking it on the packets or goods themselves, or even by a verbal declaration; or, in any other manner which the Board of Trade choose to prescribe.
So there is no difficulty in carrying out a requirement of this kind. As I have said, a great many shopkeepers are already doing it, and most of them—certainly most of the best ones—have been doing so for a number of years. But the important thing is that this Amendment, as intended, would rope in those who do not: the least desirable shopkeepers; the very people, in fact, from whom the consumer needs to be protected. During the Committee stage the noble Lord, Lord Derwent said [OFFICIAL REPORT, Vol. 249 (No. 75) col. 120]:
" … marking of the price per lb. would, I agree, appear to be of advantage to the consumer."
It certainly would. And since the noble Lord accepts the advantage to the consumer in principle, I say: why not put it into practice in the Bill by accepting this Amendment?
I have been very carefully through the Amendment, and through the discussions we have had on the Committee stage. We have, so far as is humanly possible, revised the Amendment to meet the valid objections which were raised on Committee stage, but we have completely answered the rest. I believe that, in its revised form, every objection which was raised in Committee has been removed, unless, therefore, the noble Lord has thought up some new arguments meantime, there can be no shadow of a case
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for resisting the Amendment now, and I trust he will accept it. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 21, line 23, at end insert the said paragraph.—(Lord Stonham.)
4.21 p.m.
LORD DERWENT: My Lords, I shall deal in the course of my reply with various new points raised by the noble Lord, but first I will outline the general case against an Amendment of this sort. My argument follows very much the lines it did on the Committee, but I must again explain to the House our reasons. When we discussed the Committee Amendment on this subject, I said that the Government did not believe that it would be appropriate or practicable to impose in this Bill a requirement to make known the price per unit quantity. I am still of the same opinion. In our view, requirements of this kind would place an unwarranted restriction on traders, and it could be, and in certain cases would be, positively disadvantageous to purchasers. In spite of what the noble Lord says we still hold the view that such requirements would greatly complicate, and probably prevent, the practice, convenient to both shopkeeper and customer, of selling loose articles of slightly different weights, such as chops or fish fillets, at a fixed price per article.
LORD STONHAM: If I may interrupt, in that case how does the butcher get over the legal requirement that he must weigh the meat?
LORD DERWENT: If the noble Lord will be patient for a minute, I will tell him. It is not illegal to offer chops or fish fillets, and things of that kind at so much per chop, or whatever it is, from a tray in the window at 6d., 1s., or 2s. per chop, whatever it may be, provided that the goods are weighed before the purchaser takes them away. But if regulations were made that the price per unit was to be put on each chop, which would be the practical effect of this Amendment, then they could not be sold, as they often are sold, in a way which is very convenient to the customer, from a tray at 6d. per chop, all the chops being approximately the same size, because each one would have to be weighed individually.
This Amendment would also hinder another common trade practice which is greatly to the consumer's benefit—the

1121
reduction by retailers of prices of pre-packed goods. It is obvious that if a packet of something, normally costing 2s. and marked with its price per unit, which this Amendment would insist on, is offered one week by the retailer at 1s. 9d., the marked price per unit will no longer be correct; and that will apply to everything in his store which has had a price reduction, and everything will have to be remarked with the price per unit. In many cases the burden of changing the price per unit on every package and tin for which the retailer wanted to cut his prices would, I think, prevent him from cutting his prices. If we required the price per unit to be made known, the result would be that this price would be stamped on the packet by the manufacturer or packer, and therefore, in practice, the price would be fixed by the manufacturer. Therefore, in the supposed cause of consumer protection we should indirectly be severely discouraging retailers from cutting prices. I do not think the fact that the present Amendment requires the price per unit to be rounded off to the nearest 1d. disposes of the extremely complicated difficulties which will be met with, if the Amendment is agreed to, by the poor retailer.
I would bring forward this further point. When goods are pro-packed and there are regulations applying to them about making the price per unit known, these requirements will have to apply from the factory to the retail store. In practice, therefore, each tin will have to be marked if this Amendment is accepted, which again, I think, will prevent any cutting of prices. I cannot think that it either practicable or desirable to make these complications for the trader, because I do not believe that the change would help the consumer.
LORD CROOK: When I listened, I was not sure for whom to burst into tears—for the noble Lord who had just made the case, for the Board of Trade, who gave him the brief, or for the poor supermarkets who, according to the noble Lord, suffer so terribly. I can only suggest that the plain truth is that, not for the first time, noble Lords sitting on the benches opposite are completely out of touch with anything that goes on in the ordinary life of this country; because as I listened to the noble Lord, I could not believe he was living in the same world as the rest of us.
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If I go into a supermarket, I find that each article, whether it has a price printed on it originally by the producer or not, will have chalked on it, first because the supermarket man does not trust the woman when she comes into the shop, and, secondly, because he does not trust his own staff, the price at which he is selling it. A 1s. 6d. packet of biscuits will be marked down to 1s. 4½d. so that he can "do down" the supermarket at the end of the road selling the same thing for 1s. 5d. In each supermarket there is a section of the staff whose sole task in life is to make certain that before things are wrapped they are marked with prices somewhere outside and brought in on trolleys. If they have a big rush on—
LORD DERWENT: I think the noble Lord is not following me quite correctly. We are talking not about the price on each article but about the price per unit of quantity, which is not the same thing as the price.
LORD CROOK: I was coming to that. On the price per unity of quantity, when the supermarket owner wants to deal with it that way round, he will put up a whole stack and show on it what the goods are marked down to. If the noble Lord tells me that his interpretation of the Amendment does not permit that to be done, we may be on completely new ground. But if the noble Lord goes and looks at these chops, which have always worried him so much, he will find on the average small piece of loin, carrying two or three chops, or whatever it may be, a little label which normally gives the adjudged weight, the price per lb., the price the purchaser is to be charged, with the words below "To be reweighed". Are these not considerations which the noble Lord can take into account? The noble Lord may tell me that everything I am saying is bunk. I am quite prepared to be told that—it is not the first time he has told me that—but at the moment I do not regard as very sound the arguments he has put up against this Amendment.
LORD DERWENT: I am afraid I am not allowed to tell the noble Lord that.
LORD HAWKE: I have read the Amendment very carefully. I cannot quite see that the interpretation being placed on it is necessarily correct. Am

1123
I not right in thinking that the prospective buyer could be made acquainted with the price at the moment of purchase? And, of course, supermarkets are not the only places concerned: there are many others as well. The moment of purchase is when the goods are put on the scales. I think that noble Lords opposite are arguing on behalf of supermarkets, and not of the vaster part of the retail trade of the country. I wish that my noble friend the Minister would introduce me to his butcher, because these chops at 6d. each are a good bargain, and one with which we are not normally acquainted.
LORD STONHAM: I feel that this is one of those occasions when, by no means for the first time in dealing with this Bill, we feel that the noble Lord and his advisers are quite out of touch with the practices of to-day. Not only that, but on this occasion the noble Lord has not attempted at all to answer the case I put—not in any way. We have had exactly the same points as we heard before. But I put to him particularly—and I gave examples—that it would be for the Board of Trade to specify the manner in which the unit of quantity should be made known. Surely it is within everybody's knowledge that large stores in every town, small or large, in this country have this unit of quantity marked, on a placard if you like, which absolutely shouts it out, and often that has no direct relationship to any price that might be marked on the tin or container. That is the whole purpose of these places.
There is absolutely no difficulty at all, as the noble Lord pretends, in complying with the terms of this Amendment. He said that there are cases where it would be positively disadvantageous to the customer, but carefully refrained from giving a single example. Then, when he came to the 6d., 9d. or 1s. chops and I said to him, "Then that is quite illegal, because for 30 years there has been a statutory obligation to weigh meat", he said, "Ah! But in this case they fix the price of the chop first and they weigh it afterwards". In regard to the previous Amendment the noble Lord said that, in the form in which it stood, my Amendment is a nonsense. If he says that that is the practice, then what he has just said is a far greater nonsense. Of
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course, if the chops are weighed at all they are weighed before the butcher puts the price on them; otherwise, as I have said, he would go out of business in no time.
It may well be that, as my noble friend Lord Crook says, there is a ticket which says that they have to be re-weighed. In the cases which I have observed they do not bother with little formalities like that. But in the case of this Amendment the law would have to be properly complied with, not only so that the butcher would weigh the meat for his own proper needs in order to know how much it weighed and how much to charge, but so that the housewife could compare one quantity with another, one joint with another, or even one shop with another. The ticket should show the weight and the price per lb. That is all we are asking for. I pointed out to the noble Lord—and I have produced tickets; rightly assuming that he did not know, I produced the visual aids—that this is normal practice on a large scale, and that with most reputable firms the Amendment is not necessary because they are doing it already; but it is necessary with those who are somewhat less reputable and do not safeguard the consumer in the same way.
I can only say that, in turning down this Amendment on this occasion the Government have not really considered it at all. They have apparently regarded this as a formality. But I assure the noble Lord that we went carefully and fully into this Amendment, in the belief that it answered all his arguments and would be accepted. I am most disappointed that this is not the case. As it is not so, and because we regard it as important, I shall invite my noble friends and noble Lords in all parts of the House to accompany me into the Division Lobby.
LORD HAWKE: My Lords, before the noble Lord sits down, may I ask him whether his Amendment is not covered by the words in lines 20 to 23:
"are not sold without the quantity sold expressed as aforesaid being made known to the buyer at or before such time as may be so specified"?
Surely the order could then specify whether or not the goods are to be marked in advance of sale?
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, if by leave of the House I may answer the question, the answer is, No. In any case, it does not cover the case of marking on the goods. It may be conveyed verbally. I indicated in my speech that I cannot say the method of making known the unit of quantity which the Board of Trade will specify for different goods; and I said that it could in certain cases be made known verbally. All we ask in the Amendment is that the Board of Trade should, by order, make regulations in different ways with different classes of goods, to make the unit of quantity known to the buyer.
Clause 23:
Quantity to be stated in writing in certain cases
23.—
(4) The Board may by order grant and from time to time vary or revoke, with respect to goods or sales of such descriptions as may be specified in the order, exemption, either generally or in such circumstances as may be so specified, from all or any of the requirements of this section; and, until otherwise provided by such an order, nothing in subsections (1) to (3) of this section shall apply to—

(a) a sale by retail from a vehicle of—

(i) any of the following in a quantity not exceeding two hundredweight, that is to say, any solid fuel within the meaning of Schedule 6 to this Act, and wood fuel;

(ii) any of the following in a quantity not exceeding five gallons, that is to say,

LORD BOOTHBY: My Lords, I have listened with strained attention to the arguments both in favour of this Amendment and, by the noble Lord representing Her Majesty's Government, against it. I have reached only one conclusion. Whether the Amendment is passed or whether it is not, within six months of the passage of this Bill every butcher in this country will be raving mad.
4.40 p.m.
On Question, Whether the said Amendment (No. 3) shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 21; Not-Contents, 44.

CONTENTS

Addison, V.

Latham, L.

St. Davids, V.

Archibald, L.

Lawson, L.

Sherwood, L.

Burden, L. [Teller.]

Listowel, E.

Silkin, L.

Champion, L.

Lucan, E. [Teller.]

Stonham, L.

Chorley, L.

Meston, L.

Williams of Barnburgh, L.

Crook, L.

Morrison of Lambeth, L.

Williamson, L.

Douglas of Barloch, L.

Ogmore, L.

Wise, L.

NOT-CONTENTS

Ailwyn, L.

Forster of Harraby, L.

Merrivale, L.

Atholl, D.

Fortescue, E.

Mills, V.

Bessborough, E.

Goschen, V. [Teller.]

Milverton, L.

Bossom, L.

Hailsham, V. (L. President.)

Monsell, V.

Boston, L.

Hawke, L.

Newall, L.

Brecon, L.

Horsbrugh, B.

Remnant, L.

Carrington, L.

Howe, E.

St. Oswald, L.

Chesham, L.

Iddesleigh, E.

Somers, L.

Colyton, L.

Jellicoe, E.

Soulbury, V.

Croft, L.

Jessel, L.

Strang, L.

De La Warr, E.

Long, V.

Stuart of Findhorn, V.

Denham, L. [Teller.]

Lothian, M.

Swinton, E.

Derwent, L.

Mancroft, L.

Tweedsmuir, L.

Dilhorne, L. (L. Chancellor.)

Mansfield, E.

Twining, L.

Ferrers, E.

Massereene and Ferrard, V.

Resolved in the negative, and Amendment disagreed to accordingly.

liquid fuel, lubricating oil, and any mixture of such fuel and oil;
LORD STONHAM LORD STONHAM moved, in subsection (4), to leave out paragraph (a). The noble Lord said: My Lords, my noble friends and I regard this Amendment as of considerable importance. During the Committee stage my noble friend Lord Latham moved an exactly similar Amendment, and the fact that we are returning to it is an indication of the importance we attach to it. Our purpose is to remove from the Bill as it now stands the exemption from the need to give written quantity statements in sales from a road vehicle of solid and wood fuel in quantities of less than 2 cwt. and of liquid fuel not exceeding 5 gallons.
The Bill as it now stands would make those quantities exempt from the need for a quantity statement to be given, but at present, under by-laws, consumers, obviously in the main poor people who buy these fuels in small quantities, have this protection, and local authorities all over the country are most anxious that it should continue, especially as frauds by delivery men are prevalent and are going on to an increasing degree. Also deliveries are made to houses and fiats where the housewife is possibly away working and there is no one at home to check the delivery.
My noble friend Lord Latham gave impressive figures to show that if protection is withdrawn the Government will be encouraging a racket. I will not repeat those figures or his arguments, but I wish to deal directly with the case which was put up by Lord Derwent in answering my noble friend in Committee. It will be recalled that noble Lords in all parts of the House attached considerable importance to this safeguard of requiring a ticket to be given at the time of sale, and Lord Derwent answered their anxieties by assuring us that if, when delivery was made, the occupant of the house was out, the exemption in paragraph (a) did not apply, because the transaction was a delivery and not a sale from a vehicle. It therefore put those transactions on much the same basis as small sales in a shop. This argument persuaded many noble Lords to drop their objections, and indeed the noble Lord, Lord Hawke, said he was absolutely satisfied with the noble Lord's arguments. But I am advised that in putting forward that argument the noble Lord, Lord Derwent, is quite wrong and that his statement is, in fact, a misconception of a point of law. That means that, according to my advice, if paragraph (a) is allowed to remain in the Bill the hawker will not have to leave a ticket or a quantity statement when delivering a small quantity of fuel to a house when the occupant is out.
As I understand it, the noble Lord, Lord Derwent, based his argument on the distinction which he drew between a delivery and a sale of hawked goods, but in this connection I would draw his attention to Section 16 of the Sale of Goods Act, 1893, and to the numerous court cases touching the position of what
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are called "unascertained goods". In the case of goods carried on a hawker's vehicle—and this applies particularly to liquid fuel and to coal in bulk, which is subsequently to be divided and measured or weighed at the point of appropriation to unknown, or, indeed, to known buyers—these are clearly, in the great majority of cases, unascertained goods, and they do not become specific or ascertained goods until there has been a division of the bulk and an appropriation to individual customers. In fact, while these goods are on the vehicle they are not in a deliverable state. I do not know whether that point is clear to the noble Lord; it certainly is to me. In practice they remain in this undeliverable state until they arrive at the buyer's premises, when part of the bulk is measured or weighed and appropriated to the particular buyer.
The transfer of the property in the goods takes place, therefore, at the point of appropriation. This is the point of sale, which clearly takes place on the vehicle. The sale in such circumstances must be from a vehicle, and the paragraph (a) exemption as to quantity statement applies whether or not the buyer is present. In such cases, therefore, delivery and sale are the same thing, and it is impossible, I am advised, to make the distinction on which the noble Lord based his whole case last time and on which he gave the assurances. In fact, I am also advised that delivery in relation to the sale of goods does not necessarily involve carriage or transport. It generally means simply the transfer of possession from one person to another. That is in Section 62 of the Sale of Goods Act. Most small deliveries of solid or liquid fuels from vehicles are in practice sales from vehicles, and not mere deliveries subsequent to sale at the merchant's yard, and this despite what theorists in this matter may imagine.
Most so-called hawkers nowadays have regular rounds and regular customers. Much of their trading is done on the basis of an understanding between a roundsman and his customers. When there is nobody at home, sometimes a note is left for the roundsman in a convenient place which he knows of, and in other cases he looks at the stock and leaves sufficient to replenish it. In the case of liquid fuel, it is common practice for the roundsman to fill up the tank or

1129
container, and in most of such cases the money is collected later. But in all these cases, whether the customer is present or not, the transaction in law, a sale from a vehicle, and not, as the noble Lord, Lord Derwent, said, merely a delivery. Since it is a sale from a vehicle, unless this Amendment is accepted the Bill will not require, for quantities of 2 cwt. or less, a delivery note stating the quantity. In the absence of the delivery note, as the noble Lord is aware, it is often difficult, and in many cases impossible, to prove the quantity purported to have been delivered. My Lords, if I have been correctly advised on this particular point of law, it is obvious that the noble Lord's whole case in opposing the Amendment vanishes.
When we discussed this before, the noble Lord agreed that under by-laws the requirement to leave a weight ticket exists at present. Yet in taking this power from local authorities he claimed to be tightening up the present law. My Lords, this is another manifest nonsense, because by this exemption he is leaving the small consumer wide open to fraud and with virtually no hope of recompense. The noble Lord will be aware that the County Councils' Association, and, indeed, all weights and measures authorities, are extremely concerned about the consequences of the removal of this protection. It is no consolation for them to be told than, if things go wrong, the Board of Trade has the power to put them right. They are right now, under the by-laws. The time to ensure that they continue to be right is now, when we are dealing with the Bill, and I trust in view of these arguments, which I regard as unanswerable, the Government will do so by accepting this Amendment. My Lords, I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 25, line 43, leave out paragraph (a).—(Lord Stonham.)
THE EARL OF MANSFIELD: My Lords, on this occasion I feel that the noble Lord, Lord Stonham, has completely proved his point, and I hope that, for once, the Amendment may be accepted. I think there is more swindling, particularly of poor people, done in the retail trade of coal and wood than almost anywhere else. When I was addressing your Lordships on the Committee stage of this Bill—not actually on this particular
1130
point, but on whether scales ought to be carried on coal lorries—I mentioned that part of my duties as chairman of the police committee of my county council is to authorise prosecutions of people who swindle in delivering coal, and that I had had only too many of these to do. After the Committee stage of this Bill, I returned to Scotland to find a fresh request awaiting me, that I should authorise a prosecution which I had very great pleasure in doing. On this occasion some 45 or 50 sacks of coal were weighed by our very zealous inspector, who found that in no single case was any one of these bags—all of which were supposed to contain 1 cwt.—deficient by less than 10 lb., and in a number of cases the deficiency was as much as 17 lb. in a cwt.
LORD STONHAM: They were all deficient?
THE EARL OF MANSFIELD: Yes. Every single sack was deficient by not less than 10 lb. and some were up to 17 lb. The people who are affected by this are naturally the humblest sections of the community, because only they buy in small quantities of 1 cwt. or 2 cwt., or even less, at a time. The have no opportunity themselves of checking the weights, because there are few households, I imagine, even among your Lordships, where there are scales that can weigh up to half a cwt. Usually 2 stone is the maximum. The result is that they are largely at the mercy of the retailer. The swindling is done usually by the owner when it is a small one-man business. When it is a larger business it is usually done by the van driver, who abstracts so many pounds of coal from each sack and then sells several sacks more than he set out with and pockets the result. The small owner himself does the same. In either case the consumer is defrauded, and probably the Inland Revenue, too, because it is not shown in the returns.
Admittedly there is really no way in which the small consumer can be entirely protected. But if you compel the deliverer of the coal to sign a docket that he has delivered the specified quantity, you are going a very considerable way towards checking it. This is even more important in the case of wood fuel, because there I have on several occasions—in England, not in Scotland—seen lorries going round the suburbs

1131
selling wood by the bag, and not mentioning at all what was the weight of the bag. It is quite easy, when one has logs, so to arrange them—if some of them are fairly long, 18 inches or more in length—as to make the bag look pretty full, whereas in point of fact it is by no means full. It is for that reason that I feel that this provision of having to declare weight at the time of delivery is going to be a very considerable deterrent to the rascality which undoubtedly goes on in a great many areas, and which it is difficult to detect because no authority has enough inspectors to make a thorough job of going around the place. These merchants, or their drivers, often go on for years without being caught, and the admittedly quite severe fines which may be imposed on them when they are caught are only a fraction of the ill-gotten gains which they have made over the preceding period. For that reason, I feel that this Amendment is fully worthy of support.
5.0 p.m.
LORD DERWENT: My Lords, I was going to confine myself to the legal point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Stonham, but because of my noble friend's remarks I cannot do that, and must deal with the whole matter. May I say this to my noble friend? With great respect, I do not think that either this particular clause or the Amendment are fully understood, and I hope to explain to him as I go on why I say that. We are all aware that deliverers of coal in sacks, particularly the vanmen in certain places, are very apt to take bits out of the sacks, and so on, and to defraud; but the provision of a delivery note does not, in fact, in the case of hawkers, have any effect on that whatsoever.
We discussed an Amendment identical to this one in Committee, and we held then, for reasons which I will give again, that it would be unduly onerous to make a hawker write out delivery notes for this door-to-door trade where sales are in small quantities. That is at the back of our thinking. Hawkers and coal merchants who operate what is known as a "trolley round"—that is, making small door-to-door sales; not the delivery of large amounts—perform a valuable service to people who wish to
1132
buy fuel frequently in small quantities, either because they have not sufficient space in which to store it or because they cannot afford large quantities at a time, and we do not think it reasonable to require delivery notes to be made out for all these small sales. We do not think it is necessary, in the interests of the consumer, to require delivery notes with this kind of sale. Leaving aside the question of fraud (I will deal with the noble Lord's point in a moment), the quantity of goods is known to the buyer at the time of sale, and the goods are delivered in his or her presence. That is important.
If coal is made up in sacks, it must be in specified quantities marked on the sacks. So a delivery note does not help here if there is fraud. What helps is an inspector coming along and weighing the sack with the amount marked on it. That is not the case now, but it will be when this Bill becomes an Act. A specified amount is shown and if there is any fraud the inspector can catch him without a delivery note, because there is the sack which is being either carried or delivered and it is found to be short in quantity. So a delivery note would not help there. If the coal is loose, it must be weighed at the time of sale—and this, of course, is the legal point, raised by the noble Lord, Lord Stonham. Similarly, the hawker must use stamped measuring equipment to measure out the quantity of paraffin sold, which is the other commodity we were particularly talking about, and the customer must be present and will be able to see the measurement.
Now we come on to the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Stonham. I have taken advice from my advisers, and I have taken advice from Parliamentary Counsel. I am not a lawyer, and I am making this statement in front of my noble and learned friend on the Woolsack. They take the view that if the goods are delivered when the buyer is out and in response to a previous order (if he is not there, he cannot be giving any order at that time), that is not "a sale by retail from a vehicle" but "a delivery after sale". The sale was made at the time the order was given. Is that clear to the noble Lord? A delivery note would then, in all cases, be required. Without getting too involved in legal niceties, may I go a little further? The actual interpretation of the Bill must

1133
ultimately rest on decisions of the courts, but my legal advisers see no reason to suppose that, in interpreting Clause 23(4), with which we are here concerned, the courts would not follow the decision in Hunthig v. Matthews. In that case, the Divisional Court held that coal which was carried on a vehicle for delivery in response to a number of orders was not being carried for sale: the sale had taken place earlier, even though, the Divisional Court said, none of the sacks on the vehicle had at the relevant time been appropriated to any particular order. In other words, the lorry was full of coal which had been previously ordered.
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, may I interrupt the noble Lord to ask him a question? I understood him to say that his legal advisers, including Parliamentary Counsel, take the view that the sale was made at the time the order was given, which may have been weeks before, and that in that case a delivery note would he required. Could he say if that would also apply to the kind of case which f instanced, where the chap has his usual round which he might have been doing for months, and where he is accustomed to leaving a certain quantity each time—say, filling up a container? Would that be regarded as a case in which a sale had taken place previously, so that a delivery note would be required?
LORD DERWENT: A delivery note would be required: that is what I am advised. The only time a delivery note would not be required is when a man comes round with his trolley and the buyer tells him "I want so much coal". It would then either be delivered in a marked sack, or it would be weighed in front of a customer; but on all other occasions, when an actual order had been given on a previous date, then a delivery note would be required. I have had a further note as we have been discussing this, saying that the legal advisers see no reason to depart from that firm opinion. They maintain that there is no doubt.
Therefore, my Lords, we do not believe that the exemption in subsection (4)(a) would in any way prejudice the interests of the consumer. I think that even the most ardent advocates of form-filling as a national pastime must surely pause
1134
before requiring small itinerant hawkers to make out a delivery note in front of every customer with every quart of paraffin or sack of coal they sell. The objection of the noble Lord, Lord Stonham, to what I said on Committee stage was to this effect. I have taken the best legal advice I could get; there is a decided case which deals with the point, and no other; I am not a lawyer, but I am advised that in the minds of my legal advisers there is not a shadow of doubt that the case which I have put is the correct one.
THE EARL OF MANSFIELD: Would the noble Lord, Lord Derwent, answer one question? If this clause is, as it would be, no protection in the case of people buying coal, where is it protection? What is the use of Clause 23 at all?
LORD DERWENT: I am afraid I still do not understand the noble Earl's question. I never said that this clause was no protection. What I said was that where fuel was delivered in the presence of the buyer, the order having been previously given by the buyer, and it was either loose fuel weighed in the presence of the buyer or it was in a marked sack—the sacks would have to be marked under this Bill—it would be no protection to give a delivery note in those circumstances to the buyer, and would really be causing a lot of quite unnecessary form-filling.
I repeat, if the buyer were not there the delivery note would have to be given, and if a fraudulent sack was produced then a delivery note would not help because it would be up to the inspector to weigh the sack and he would catch him as he would on any other occasion. But the actual delivery note would not fill up the sack again and it would be of no value to the purchaser. But an offence which is committed by the hawker is just as serious with a delivery note as without one. It is the same offence: defrauding the purchaser. The issue of a delivery note would have no real effect, and would be unduly onerous. Subject to the legal position, which I am assured is in fact how I explained it, I hope the noble Lord will withdraw his Amendment.
LORD STONHAM: Naturally, my Lords, I am less fitted to dispute legal

1135
arguments with the noble Lord than anyone I can imagine. For that reason I will have to look at this again and possibly raise it at another stage. I must say, however, that he has on this occasion put this particularly knotty point at far greater length, in response to more specific questions, than he was able to do before. If the noble Lord is correct—and it seems likely that he is—then it would cover a great many of these small sales of the kind to which I referred when the person is out and where it is a regular thing. If these transactions are regarded as sales at the time the order is given and a delivery note must be left, then of course it will go a considerable way to meet the case. But it by no means goes the whole of the way. It is all very well to say that you cannot require a hawker to give a ticket for every quart of paraffin he sells when he hands it over to the buyer, and I can see there is something in that point when you reduce it to absurdity. But we are talking of quantities of less than five gallons and we could put the figure very much lower; we could put it at half a gallon instead of five gallons or even at one gallon if the noble Lord prefers. That is the point we could come to so as not to bother about very small sales when they are handed over.
I am sorry, but I cannot agree that the noble Lord really covers the essence of this thing. It is not an unimportant matter and it is really not right to say that the leaving of the weight ticket has little value to the consumer. The noble Earl, Lord Mansfield, put this point very clearly. He admitted—and we all know that it is true—that these thefts and frauds are prevalent, and if there is a weight or quantity shown you have some evidence. If there is no weight or quantity ticket you have no evidence at all.
LORD JESSEL: My Lords, I thought the noble Lord said you had the sack. I thought the weight was marked on the sack. I think the noble Lord, Lord Stonham, has been for once a little muddle-headed. You want a delivery note and you want a sack marked as well.
LORD STONHAM: I can assure the noble Lord that, although I may be a little muddle-headed, I am not in any
1136
danger of getting the sack. I would not say that about the noble Lord opposite. I do not really think that I was muddleheaded on this point. If a sack is delivered and the assumption is that there is supposed to be one hundredweight in it but there is no ticket at all in many cases, it will not be known which particular delivery man brought it in.
LORD JESSEL: I am sorry to interrupt the noble Lord again, but I understood that the noble Lord, Lord Derwent, said that the sack was marked with the quantity of what was contained in it. Is that so or not?
LORD STONHAM: Yes, my Lords but the point is that if the coal is shot out of the sack the sack is taken away; it is no longer there. There is no evidence unless there is a ticket. The coalman does not just deliver and leave the sack and pick it up again. He simply shoots it out into a box or container or through a hole. There is no evidence. If the noble Lord, Lord Jessel, thinks that over he will agree with me that I am not muddle-headed.
LORD JESSEL: This is when the buyer is present, is it not?
LORD DERWENT: Yes.
LORD JESSEL: There is a delivery note when the buyer is not present, is there not? When the buyer is present it is shot out of a sack which is marked, even though the sack may not be left behind.
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, perhaps the noble Lord will allow me to deal with that point. There are two kinds of transaction; and there may be more. One kind is that when the buyer is present, and where there is probably less need for a ticket because the buyer can see what he is getting; the other kind of transaction we were talking about is that where the buyer is not present but where the sale has been made some time before—perhaps a month; perhaps it is a regular delivery. In such cases, according to the noble Lord, Lord Derwent, a ticket must be left; but in these cases there is probably no sack left behind and the goods are shot out even though the buyer is not present.
LORD JESSEL: My Lords, there is no sack but there is a delivery note left behind.
LORD STONHAM: But only in the cases where the buyer is not present and it is assumed that the sale has taken place some time ago. That does not cover all the transactions quite apart from those where the buyer is present. I do not think you can escape the conclusion that the presence of this exemption for quantities less than 2 cwt. or quantities of liquid fuel of less than five gallons is a loophole—or, rather, much larger than a loophole, a gap—through which you can drive a coal cart. And it adds to the chance of the already very numerous frauds. I had originally felt that we ought to take this Amendment to the limit, but in view of the conflict of legal evidence and in view of the fact that, if the noble Lord is correct, it does give protection to a very much larger number of transactions of this kind than I had, and indeed he had, at first supposed, I propose, with the agreement of my noble friends, on this occasion to withdraw the Amendment. But I may well be that, having studied these legal arguments, shall have to come back to it again on Third Reading. With that, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
5.18 p.m.
EARL PERRERS: My Lords, the purpose of this Amendment is, I think, self-evident. Subsectior (4)(c) of Clause 23 exempts from the delivery note requirements of the clause all goods which are made up for sale in containers marked with their quantity. Clearly, where the consumer receives a container marked with the quantity of the goods, e.g. a packet of tea or bag of prepacked potatoes, he does not also need a delivery note stating the quantity. The marking itself gives the necessary protection to the buyer.
It has, however, come to our notice that this exemption, as now drafted, would also cover cases where goods are made up for sale in containers which are not actually delivered with the goods; but where goods are emptied out of their containers and the containers taken away. In these cases, the buyer would have no documentary evidence of the stated amount of the goods delivered. An example is solid fuel, sold in sacks marked with the weight of the contents, by a hawker from a vehicle. There may be
1138
other cases, too, where goods are made up in marked containers which are not delivered with the goods. We do not think that there should be an exemption in such cases from the need to give a delivery note, and we propose in this Amendment to limit the exemption in Clause 23(4)(c) to cases where the container is delivered with the goods. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 26, line 11, at end insert ("being a container which is delivered wth the goods").—(Earl Ferrers.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 24 [Short weight, etc.]:
5.22 p.m.
LORD STONHAM LORD STONHAM moved, in subsection (2), after "mislead", to insert "or defraud". The noble Lord said: My Lords, Clause 24 deals with the question of short weight, and I want to add the words "or defraud" to the word, "mislead", which is already in the Bill and which, in our view, is not strong enough in many cases. I am advised that in Birmingham alone in the last three years there have been 374 successful prosecutions for short weight, many of which could not have been made under the terms of subsection (2) of this clause, as it now stands. In one case, for example, the tare weight of a lorry delivering hay had been understated by 6 cwt. at the public weighbridge on more than 40 loads, involving a loss to the buyer of £220. That was not just misleading; it was a pure case of fraud. In another case, the tare of a vehicle used for delivering logs had been persistently understated by 6½ cwt. Not only that, the driver was in the habit of remaining in the vehicle when it was on the public weighbridge, so that every time there was a total short weight of 8 cwt., for which the customer did not get the goods. In most cases of this kind the dealer or the owner of the lorry has done nothing to mislead the buyer, but the delivery man has been guilty of deliberate fraud. We feel, and certainly the weights and measures inspectors feel, that there is a strong case for this clause to provide for such cases. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 26, line 39, after "mislead" insert "or defraud ".—(Lord Stonham.)
LORD DERWENT: My Lords, this is a matter of interpretation. I am, of course, entirely in agreement with the purpose behind the noble Lord's Amendment, but I am satisfied, upon the legal advice I have received, that this Amendment is unnecessary. The legal point at issue is this. It is an essential element of fraud that the victim was misled by the defrauder's act. Therefore, in covering any other act calculated to mislead as to quantity, which is, as I am sure your Lordships will agree, properly very wide, we have already covered the narrower effects of an act calculated to defraud as to quantity. In view of my explanation, I hope the noble Lord will withdraw his Amendment.
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, I have given my legal adviser a holiday on this one, because I thought that it was clear that the noble Lord would accept it. I should have thought that for a man to have himself weighed in his lorry was an act calculated to deceive, but I will have another look at the matter. Meanwhile, in view of the noble Lord's assurance, I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD DERWENT LORD DERWENT moved, in subsection (4), after "26(2)" to insert "and (2A)". The noble Lord said: My Lords, with the permission of the House I should like to deal with Amendments Nos. 8 and 12 together, because No. 8 is consequential on No. 12. Noble Lords will see that there are two parts to my Amendment to Clause 26. The Amendment makes no change of substance whatever to the clause, but it intended to clarify the position in respect of two matters about which some doubts have been expressed.
The first part is designed to meet the point raised in the Amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Merrivale, to Clause 26. This relates to the problem, which has been a matter of concern to retail fishmongers, of the inevitable loss of weight by drainage or evaporation between the time when fish is weighed in the shop and the time when it is delivered to the customer's door. The Amendment makes it clear that traders have a defence in the case of retail sales of food—other than pre-packed food required to be marked with its quantity—where a deficiency is due wholly to unavoidable evaporation
1140
or drainage between sale and delivery, provided that due care and precaution was taken to minimise such evaporation or drainage. This is not an extension of the defence in Clause 26, as now drafted, since those defences would already cover the circumstances described in paragraph 2A of my Amendment. But it has been represented to us that the wording of the clause as now drafted does not make the position sufficiently clear, and the object of the Amendment is to remove all doubt.
The second part of my Amendment is intended to make clearer, by redrafting, the purposes of the defences in subsections (1) and (2) of Clause 26. This is an important clause for traders and for consumers, and I think it should state, as plainly as possible, what are the circumstances in which the various defences apply. Noble Lords will be aware that Clause 26(2) provides a defence for traders who make reasonable allowance, in packing their goods, for factors such as evaporation which can affect the weight between the time of packing and the time of sale. It has been suggested, however, that there may be some doubt about the interrelation between this defence in subsection (2) and that in subsection (1)(a) which refers to the commission of an offence due to "some other cause beyond his control." My Amendment will, I hope, make it clear absolutely that, as has been the intention, the defence in subsection (1)(a) shall not apply if the cause of the deficiency was one which should reasonably have been foreseen and for which allowance could reasonably have been made in making up or marking the goods. Thus, for example, where evaporation is unavoidable but the trader can forecast its extent and can reasonably make allowance for it, he will have to do so in order to rely on a defence under Clause 26, and his defence will be that provided by subsection (2), not subsection (1).
The point is that some people misunderstood this, and we think the Amendments will make it clear that where loss of weight is due wholly to circumstances outside the control of the seller there is a defence, but where there is more or less known evaporation, or evaporation that can be reasonably estimated, then that must be taken into account by the seller. I hope that I have made myself clear and that the House will agree to this Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 27, line 20, after ("26(2)") insert ("and (2A) ").—(Lord Derwent.)
LORD MERRIVALE: My Lords, I should like to take this opportunity to express my deep appreciation to my noble friends Lord Ferrers and the Minister of State for tabling these two Amendments. I put down an Amendment on the Committee stage to try to achieve the same thing, but due to a Parliamentary visit abroad I was unable to move it. However, I discussed the question with my noble friend Lord Ferrers, and I believe he took it up with the Board of Trade. I am glad that they have reconsidered this and tabled these two Amendments which completely meet the requirements of the National Federation of Fishmongers, in spite of the fact that subsection (2B) modifies the scope of the defence provided by Clause 26(1)(a).
I should like to make a few comments on the two Amendments, because while this Bill was passing through another place, and during Second Reading and Committee stage in this House, the National Federation of Fishmongers were particularly worried with regard to the provisions of Clause 26 on the question of drainage and evaporation of wet fish. In another place the Government's attitude was that a customer should be able to receive at home the same weight as was ordered at the shop, by allowance being made by the shopkeeper. I am glad that the Government realise that there are instances where an allowance could not be made, or that it would not be practicable to do so. For example, if a housewife ordered four red mullets, I presume that the fishmonger would be expected to throw in a few free extra sprats to make up for the loss in weight due to evaporation or drainage. In many cases it will be difficult for the trader to assess exactly the amount of drainage or evaporation that will take place when a customer comes to the shop and asks for the fish to be de livered a few hours later. A few weeks ago, as I was rather worried on the quest ion of drainage and evaporation, I visited a fishmonger's in Twickenham and saw that after 1 lb. of cod fillet had been packed for one hour there was a loss of a quarter of an ounce. In another package of cod
1142
fillet, after 1½ hours the loss through drainage was half an ounce.
As my noble friend did not mention Section 12, subsections (2) and (3), of the 1926 Sale of Food (Weights and Measures) Act, I should like to refer to those provisions to show how necessary it is to have the Amendments we are now considering. Section 12(2) reads as follows:
"In any proceedings under this Act in respect of an alleged deficiency of weight or measure or number, if the defendant proves to the satisfaction of the Court that such deficiency was due to a bona fide mistake or accident, or other causes beyond his control … the defendant shall be discharged from the prosecution."
Subsection (3) reads:
"In any proceedings under this Act in respect of an alleged deficiency in the weight of any article of food delivered to a purchaser, the defendant shall be discharged from the prosecution if he proves to the satisfaction of the court that the alleged deficiency was due to unavoidable evaporation or drainage and that due care and precaution had been taken to avoid such deficiency."
Over the years subsection (3) of Section 12 of the 1926 Act has been most useful when cases have come before magistrates' courts. In particular, I would mention two cases which came before the Harrow Magistrates in October, 1960.
In one case there had been a sale of 1 lb. 8 oz. of cod steaks which, after being wrapped, were weighed by an inspector and found to weigh 1 lb. 7 oz. 5 drams, an alleged deficiency of 11 drams, equivalent to an overcharge, if established, of ld. The defence called independent evidence to show that, on a test, 1 lb. 8 oz. of cod steaks became 1 lb. 7 oz. when reweighed after wrapping, a loss of weight of 1 oz., or 5 drams greater than that found by the inspector. The magistrates dismissed the summons. In another prosecution the summons related to 14 oz. of haddock fillets which, after being wrapped, were weighed by the inspector at 12 oz. 13 drams, a deficiency of 1 oz. 3 drams, equivalent to an overcharge of 3½d., if established. The independent evidence showed that the fillets should have lost only ¾ oz., and the fishmonger was, not unnaturally, convicted on this summons. I am sorry to have been so long in supporting a Government Amendment, but the National Federation of Fishmongers are grateful, and I also wanted to show your Lordships how useful the Government's

1143
Amendments that we are now considering will be for fishmongers.
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, we welcome these Amendments and would congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Merrivale, in that he has succeeded in convincing the Government in Committee without making a speech but merely by printing the Amendment. We wish we could be as fortunate on this side. I think I understand the noble Lord, Lord Derwent, perfectly well. He was most lucid about it although he did manage to convey the impression that he did not understand himself as well as I understood him, but possibly that was only his modesty. As I understand it, this will apply only to a retail sale of those foods which, if pre-packed, are not provided for in any other part of the Bill.
LORD DERWENT: I am sorry to interrupt the noble Lord, but this is a case of a sale by retail of food not being food pre-packed.
LORD STONHAM: I understand that. In view of the insistence of the noble Lord, Lord Merrivale, that this was particularly related to fish, as it obviously is, but of course it applies to other foods as well, I am a little concerned about this question in 2A that
"it shall be a defence for the person charged to prove that the deficiency was due wholly to unavoidable evaporation or drainage since the sale and that due care and precaution was taken to minimise any such evaporation or drainage."
The due care and precaution which one would expect a retail fishmonger to take in advance would be to throw a bucket of water over it; and that would be a proper and legitimate precaution but, of course, would have a great deal of effect on the weight. I wonder whether that is what the noble Lord has in mind in the drafting of this clause.
Then, when we come to 2B, although it says that it is without prejudice to any defence under subsection (2) or (2A), it says that it would be necessary
"for the person charged to prove that the commission of the offence was due to some cause beyond his control if that cause was one which should reasonably have been foreseen and for which allowance could reasonably have been made in stating the quantity of the goods …".
I am quite sure that these are wise provisions to have in this Bill. I thank the
1144
Government for putting them in and I am sure that they will be a defence for an honest trader if they are needed. But I draw attention to the danger the other way. There are some trades where it is often the practice, sometimes necessary, to revive what can only be called wilting produce by giving it a drink, which, of course, adds a lot of weight to it; and I wonder when this was drafted, with regard to the "unavoidable evaporation or drainage", whether the Government had that in mind and whether they are satisfied that this is not covered by the remainder of the clause and that they are not opening the door too wide.
LORD DERWENT: My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Merrivale for his support of these Amendments and I think they will provide a safeguard for the trader as well as at the same time providing an adequate protection for the consumer. The real point of the noble Lord, Lord Stonham, is this: you cannot by law stop anyone from cheating. That is quite certain. You must, I think, give the honest man a defence for this sort of thing. If an inspector were to find that gross malpractices—I will not say by throwing a bucket of water over fish, which might be in the consumer's interest—were taking place with vegetables or something of that kind, if it came to his knowledge and if he could prove it, which is a much more difficult thing, then there are other clauses dealing with practices "calculated to mislead" which would come into effect. I do not think we can really tighten up at all this particular clause with practical effect. I will certainly have a look at what the noble Lord has said, but I have been advised that the draughtsmen have taken very good care over this clause and I doubt very much whether it can be tightened up at all.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 25:
Pleading of warranty as defence
25.—(1) Subject to the provisions of this section, in any proceedings for an offence under this Part of this Act or any instrument made thereunder, being an offence relating to the quantity or pre-packing of any goods, it shall be a defence for the person charged to prove—

(a) that he bought the goods from some other person—

(i) as being of the quantity which the person charged purported to sell or

1145
represented, or which was marked on any container or stated in any document to which the proceedings relate; or

(c) that at the tire of the commission of the offence he had no reason to believe the statement contained in the warranty to be inaccurate, that he did in fact believe in its accuracy and, if the warranty was given by a person who at the time he gave it was resident outside Great Britain and any designated country, that the person charged had taken reasonable steps to check the accuracy of that statement; and

5.46 p.m.
LORD LATHAM LORD LATHAM moved, in subsection (1)(a), after "person", where that word first occurs, to insert "resident in Great Britain". The noble Lord said: I rise to move Amendment No. 9 on the Marshalled List. It is the case that Amendment No. 10 is related to the same subject matter and it is also the case that if Amendments 9 and 10 are carried, No. 11 will be redundant. These Amendments were, of course, moved and defeated during the Committee stage of the proceedings. I make no apology, however, for re-submitting them for the consideration of your Lordships. As I sit through the proceedings on this Bill I am really in a considerable doubt as to what is its purpose. Is it the greater protection and defence of the consumer or is it the greater protection and defence of the trader? I must confess that at times I have an uncomfortable feeling that the Minister is very much more concerned about the interests of the traders than the interests of the consumers.
This Amendment is an important one, although it is largely concerned with procedure. Its importance is in helping the weights and measures authorities to protect the consumer in relation to imported goods and, after all, the value of this measure will be entirely determined by the success of its application and operation by the enforcing authorities, and anything that can be done to assist them should be clone. Certainly we should seek to avoid doing anything which would hamper, harass or hinder them in carrying out the provisions of the law.
The warranty defence is quite a reasonable proposal in relation to home-produced goods, in which case the person giving a false warranty can be effectively dealt with. Overseas exporters who give false warranties are beyond the jurisdiction of our courts and thereby escape, as does the importer relying on
1146
the false warranty if he can prove reasonable steps to check the accuracy of the warranty. If the goods are imported from the so-called designated country, then it is not even necessary for the person charged to prove that he had taken reasonable steps. That matter will be dealt with in a later Amendment, as I have indicated. But this warranty from abroad is really a nullity. It is of no value to the consumer. It can be of some value to the importer because, although the warranty cannot be enforced outside the United Kingdom, it is the case that in most industrial countries the importer can sue out a civil case for damages as a result of failure to comply with the warranty in respect of goods which are bought. So it seems that it is only the consumer who suffers.
The trader who puts the offending goods on the market and excuses himself and defends himself by saying that he acted under a warranty and that he took reasonable care and reasonable steps to ascertain whether the warranty was a good one and whether it would be complied with—and if it is not complied with he has a claim—presumably sells the goods to the British consumer and the British consumer is quite unprotected. This solicitude which is evinced by the Minister as regards the trader, with very little interest and very little concern about the interests of the consumer, is strange. This warranty is a nullity; it is a fiction. The consumer is in a worse position if he buys imported goods, and I noticed that the Minister in the Committee stage on this Amendment, was very much concerned about importers. It is encouraging to know that the Party concerned with Ottawa are concerned to increase imports; but we ought not to seek to increase imports at the expense of the consumer, the consumer being bereft of what protection he would otherwise have if he bought British goods. In these circumstances, I suggest that the least that can be done is to accept the Amendment which I move in order that the consumer may be reasonably treated as regards imported goods. I am not asking for unreasonable treatment for the consumer. This, as I have said, is merely fictional, and it would be of no value at all to the consumer. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 20, line 21, after ("person") insert ("resident in Great Britain.").—(Lord Latham.)
LORD DERWENT: My Lords, I think the object of this Bill was adequately stated by the noble Lord, Lord Stonham, on the Second Reading—I am only paraphrasing, because I have not the OFFICIAL REPORT in front of me—in which be said that it was to protect the consumer and, at the same time, to establish that unduly onerous penalties were not put on the trader. As I understand the noble Lord, Lord Latham, he does not think we ought to consider the trader very much. If the noble Lord will forgive me, in answering him I should like to answer certain points which were raised on the Committee stage but which he has not raised to-day, because I think they are important. Having had a look at what was said on the Committee stage, I should like to answer that debate as well as the noble Lord's case.
I will deal with Amendments Nos. 9, 10 and 11 together. The effect of the first two Amendments would be to deprive any trader who imported goods of the defence of warranty in any proceedings for an offence relating to the quantity or pre-packing of those goods. That is what the Amendments would do. On reading the OFFICIAL REPORT for May 6 of the debate on the Committee stage on these particular Amendments, I cannot help thinking that noble Lords opposite may not have fully appreciated the effect of paragraph (c) of subsection (1) of this clause. It requires an importer who intends to rely on a statement contained in a warranty by a person resident outside this country to take
"reasonable steps to check the accuracy of that statement."
The operative word in that phrase is "check". An importer would not be able to plead under this paragraph that he has ascertained, for instance by a letter from his suppliers, that the statement of quantity on a pre-packed article was accurate. He would have to take actual steps himself to have a reasonable sample of the consignment checked for accuracy. He could do this himself, or, as is frequently done by importers, he could request the local inspector to take samples and certify that the weight
1148
or measure of their contents was as stated on the label. This the inspector is able to do by virtue of Clause 43, subsection (2), but, of course, the importer would have to pay for the inspector's services.
This is the point I want to go into again although it was not raised to-day, because I think it is important in view of what was said last time. On the Committee stage, reference was made to the situation which may arise when goods are sent to this country for sale on commission, either through an auction or by a commission agent acting for the exporter. The noble Lord, Lord Stonham, asked what value there would be in a warranty in such circumstances. As he is not here to mention it this time, he may have found out the answer, but I think the House should know it. A person charged with an offence can rely only on a warranty given to him by the person from whom he bought the goods. A commission agent is not a principal, does not buy goods; therefore Clause 25 does not apply to him. But if a British importer—that is, a principal—buys goods accompanied by a warranty from a principal resident abroad—not an agent—whether he buys the goods at an auction or through an agent, he can rely on that warranty provided that he takes reasonable steps to check its accuracy.
The defence of warranty is one of the most important safeguards for traders in the Bill and it would, we think, be an unreasonable discrimination against an importer, as opposed to a trader who is not an importer, and against imported goods, too, to withhold this defence from all traders who import goods, because that is what these Amendments would do. In our opinion, the additional requirement for importers to take reasonable steps to check the accuracy of the statement of warranty given by an overseas supplier is sufficient protection for purchasers in this country, and I would therefore ask the House to reject the first two Amendments.
The third Amendment is, as the noble Lord, Lord Latham, said, intended as an alternative should the House reject the first two Amendments. This Amendment would make it impossible ever to designate Northern Ireland or other countries in the British Isles for the purposes of this clause. With the clause as it is, it

1149
would be possible to designate, for example, Northern Ireland if the Board of Trade were satisfied that it would be proper to do so, having regard to the law in force in Northern Ireland.
LORD LATHAM: My Lords, may I interpose for a moment, for the convenience of the House? Ought we not to bring Clause 28 into the discussion at this stage?
LORD DERWENT: I was wondering whether the noble Lord would deal with Clause 28 when he, comes to it. I am just dealing with this as part of my argument. His Amendment on Clause 28 should be gone into in slightly more detail. I am just saying what the effect of this Amendment would be. Goods from Northern Ireland, once it was designated, would no longer be treated, for the purposes of this clause, as though they were imports from a foreign country. That is what we come to in Clause 28. But if Amendment No. 11 were accepted, those countries in the British Isles could never be designated; and the argument whether they should be we come to later. I hope I have explained adequately, both on the previous occasion and this—I am saying this in reference to these Amendments—that the Government think it right and proper to provide for the designation of countries within the British Isles. Therefore, as regards Amendment No. 11, I would ask your Lordships not to accept that because, if it was passed, Clause 28 would have no effect and we could never designate a country inside the British Isles if we wanted to.
I hope I have persuaded the noble Lord, Lord Latham, but I would ask the House not to accept those first two Amendments. I know the noble Lord does not like my phrasing, but I think they would be quite unwarranted discrimination against an importer as opposed to any other trader, without giving any really appreciable additional protection to the consumer.
LORD LATHAM: My Lords, would the noble Lord tell the House what is the present situation as regards warranties given by exporters from abroad?
LORD DERWENT: No, I do not think I will. That is a highly technical legal matter.
LORD LATHAM: Is it the case at the moment that there is no such limitation upon the warranty?
LORD DERWENT: No, I am not going to speak again.
LORD LATHAM: It is very material for the House to judge whether this proposal is a new proposal which changes the present law as regards warranty for goods imported or whether it is not. If it is the case that this is a new proposal, one is entitled to be informed as to what has been the experience without this proposal. Where is the warranty in respect of the provision?
LORD DERWENT: My Lords, I ought not to speak again, but with the permission of the House and as the noble Lord thinks that this is such an important point I would point out that the Food and Drugs Act covers pre-packed food and provides warranties in respect of imports if the importer has ascertained the accuracy. The wording of this is rather different, and I do not think it is much wider than the present law. The effect of the present law is that pre-packed food is provided with a warranty under the Food and Drugs Act in respect of imports if the importer has ascertained the accuracy. In this Bill he has to check the accuracy.
LORD LATHAM: If that is the case, why is it not in the law regarding weights and measures?
LORD DERWENT: The noble Lord asked me what the law was, and I have told him.
LORD LATHAM: But this is an innovation. What has been regarded as being satisfactory up to the present is expected to be unsatisfactory in regard to the future. That is what I am seeking to show. If that be the case, then the noble Lord should give some evidence of the need for this extension of the proposals as regards warranty. If I may say so with respect, I think the House ought to have been informed that this is a departure from the present law. It is an extension of the present law. In the circumstances, I regret that I am unable to withdraw the Amendment.
On Question, Amendment negatived.
LORD LATHAM: My Lords, as I indicated at the Committee stage, the purpose of this Amendment is to put

1151
the warranty of persons of so-called designated countries—as to which I shall have something to say when we reach Clause 28—on the same footing as warranties from other countries—namely, to require persons relying on them to prove that they had also taken reasonable steps to check the accuracy of the warranty statements. I submit that importers from designated countries ought not to enjoy an exemption from the requirement to make reasonable checks which they would have to do in the case of imports from other countries, including, for instance, Commonwealth countries. In those circumstances, I beg to move the Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 29, line 40, leave out ("and any designated country").—(Lord Latham.)
LORD DERWENT: My Lords, as we shall come on to this question again, shall treat it only comparatively shortly now. I should like to deal with it at greater length later, unless the noble Lord would like me to deal fully now with his Amendment to omit Clause 28. But my objection to this Amendment is, first, as I have said, that if it were carried we should never be able to designate a country inside the British Isles as one of the designated countries. I would just add that we believe that it is advisable, where possible, inside the British Isles, to have the same sort of laws and to be able to trade without all these restrictions with Jersey, Northern Ireland and so on. I shall again be referring to that matter when we come to Clause 28.
The Board of Trade, as will be seen when we come to that clause, will designate a country only in cases where the law of that part of the British Isles is, on the question of weights and measures, roughly equivalent to the weights and measures law in this country, where they feel satisfied that action will be taken against any defaulting trader. I must resist this present Amendment because, as I say, we could never have a country in the British Isles as a designated country even if we were satisfied that their law was the same as ours and that action will be taken. The country would not be designated unless the Board of Trade were so satisfied. I must oppose this Amendment.
LORD LATHAM: My Lords, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 26 [Additional defences and safeguards for traders]:
LORD DERWENT: My Lords, I spoke on this Amendment when I spoke on No. 8, which was consequential on this one. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 31, line 42, at end insert—
"(2A) In the case of a sale by retail of food, not being food pre-packed in a container which is, or is required by or under this Act to be, marked with an indication of quantity, in any proceedings for an offence under this Part of this Act or any instrument made thereunder by reason of the quantity delivered to the buyer being less than that purported to be sold, it shall be a defence for the person charged to prove that the deficiency was due wholly to unavoidable evaporation or drainage since the sale and that due care and precaution was taken to minimise any such evaporation or drainage.
(2B) Without prejudice to any defence under subsection (2) or (2A) of this section, in any proceedings for such an offence in respect of any goods as is mentioned in the said subsection (2) it shall not be a defence under subsection (1)(a) of this section for the person charged to prove that the commission of the offence was due to some cause beyond his control if that cause was one which should reasonably have been foreseen and for which allowance could reasonably have been made in stating, the quantity of the goods or in making up or making the goods as the case may be."—(Lord Derwent.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 28 [Offences originating in certain countries outside Great Britain]:
6.5 p.m.
LORD LATHAM LORD LATHAM moved to leave out Clause 28. The noble Lord said: My Lords, this Amendment was before your Lordships on the Committee stage. It is regarded as being more important than the Amendment to Clause 27, to restrict the warranty defence to warranties given by persons resident in Great Britain. Clause 28 is entirely new to legislation of this kind, and provides the defence that the offence was due to an act or default by some other person in a designated country. This indeed opens a wide door, as it would provide a defence even where the offence was due to a wilful act or default, a calculation to deceive and actions of that kind, by a

1153
person in a designated country, and any such person could not be made answerable to our courts. Despite the intention of the Board with regard to designated countries, as described by the noble Lord in opposing the Amendment on the Committee stage, it is doubtful whether, in practice, the offences would ever be adequately dealt with.
The principle of this clause may be excellent so far as persons within the jurisdiction of our courts is concerned; but in my submission it is quite illogical, and even slightly ridiculous, to extend it to culprits and defaulters who cannot be made accountable to our courts for their actions. The noble Lord said that one of the purposes of this designation is to bring the law as regards weights and measures in Northern Ireland, the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man ultimately into agreement with our own. This may be a most desirable thing to do. But, meantime, the consumer here is without adequate protection. What is the present position as regards these designated countries? Is the importer from them immune?
The Minister referred to the Government of Ireland Act, 1920. That Act, of course, has been in operation a fairly long time. Have we found it to be disadvantageous in the degree and measure that it is necessary to alter the law to the prejudice of the consumer? Perhaps the noble Lord will tell the House. As I understand it, this grant of immunity is now being made for the first time. Why is it being dealt with now? Why is it necessary to create this additional protection to the importer? After all, it is the trader who puts the offending goods on the market. He has his redress against the exporter, especially from a designated country. The consumer has no additional immunity but in fact has less protection. There are many provisions for the protection of a trader or the manufacturer who has a right of civil action against him. The supplier or the consumer, as I have said, has none, not even on proceedings and conviction, which might be a deterrent. Here again the Minister, if I may say so, seems to be more solicitous for the trader than for the consumer. It is an attitude of mind which I think is regrettable and in order to avoid casting this additional burden
1154
upon the consumer and removing from him more protection I beg to move this Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Leave out Clause 28.—(Lord Latham.)
THE EARL OF MANSFIELD: My Lords, I think that a little elucidation might be as well on this. Your Lordships will be aware that in the past few weeks there has been an outbreak of typhoid in this country. I do not think that any proceedings have been brought, so the matter is not. sub judice. That outbreak is now alleged to have been due to meat imported from a certain foreign country which had been contaminated by being cooled in polluted water after it was put into the tin. If this clause were given effect to, what would be the position of a person who had been gravely ill as a result of eating this meat? Would the importer be able to get out of all responsibility? Would, therefore, the consumer have no redress whatsoever, save by the probably impossible method of suing the foreign exporter overseas?
LORD DERWENT: May I say first, in reply to my noble friend Lord Mansfield, that the case which he has quoted will not be affected by this clause because the country from which the meat came is not inside the British Isles.
THE EARL OF MANSFIELD: But suppose it had been a designated country.
LORD DERWENT: If it were a designated country, it would have to be inside the British Isles.
So far as I can see, the principal objection of the noble Lord, Lord Latham, to this provision is that it is new. But, my Lords, it is not new. It is new in weights and measures legislation, but it is not in the least new in other ways. The provisions of this clause follow very closely Section 114 of the Food and Drugs Act, 1955. I know that that is not concerned with weights and measures but it is the same sort of thing. Under that Act, Northern Ireland have been given this special treatment because they have introduced comparable legislation.
LORD LATHAM: Would the noble Lord say what the situation is with regard to the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands?
LORD DERWENT: I do not know if they have been designated, but I do not think so—if indeed "designated" is the correct word in this legislation.
LORD STONHAM: If the noble Lord will refer to the Bill he will see that of course they have been designated.
LORD DERWENT: I am talking about the Food and Drugs Act. If the noble Lord, Lord Stonham would listen to what the noble Lord, Lord Latham, said he would realise that.
I do not know quite why the noble Lord, Lord Latham, thinks the importer is such an objectionable person, but I hope to show that under Clause 28 the consumer will not be any worse off than he is now. The object of the clause is to enable the Board of Trade to give a defence to traders in this country against whom an offence is alleged or charged under Part IV of the Bill, if they can establish that it was due to the act or default of some person in a designated country, for example, in Northern Ireland, if that country should in due course be "designated" for this purpose by order. The effect of deleting the clause would be to render traders (who might sometimes be retailers) who were supplied direct by packers in the countries concerned, liable for anything found wrong with the goods supplied by that packer. They would have no protection against the manufacturer. This is a clause which, I suggest, is appropriate and will be widely welcomed. We do not want to erect any unnecessary barriers between the countries which form the British Isles; indeed, where those barriers exist we should like to do away with them.
LORD LATHAM: Is that not a matter for general legislation and not as regards one particular activity?
LORD DERWENT: We are dealing with the Weights and Measures Bill. If the Board of Trade are satisfied that the requirements of the law in these countries inside the British Isles justify such a step, then, and only then, they can designate these countries for the purpose of any or all of the provisions of this Bill by order. They can designate the country and make this Bill apply in part to the designated country.
THE EARL OF MANSFIELD: Then I understand that the aggrieved person would sue the country direct.
LORD DERWENT: May I go on a little further? It is not quite as simple as that. The whole essence of this "designation" procedure is to ensure a measure of reciprocity with these territories in the British Isles in weights and measures matters.
It is important to note that foreign countries are not covered by this clause. Moreover, the Board of Trade would not think it proper to designate one of the countries mentioned for the purposes of this clause unless they were satisfied that, if a court in this country concluded that the commission of an offence was due to the act or default of a person in the other designated country, the authorities in that designated country would have the power and would be willing to consider using that power to institute proceedings against the person concerned. This is obviously a matter for negotiation before the Board can designate a country, but if they are satisfied with regard to the other country's law then they may designate the country.
Similarly—and this is just as important—if a designated country reported to the Board of Trade an alleged offence by a packer in Great Britain, the Board would pass on the allegation to the local authority in whose area the packer carried on business, so that action could be taken to watch for any repetition of the sort of fault attributed to him, and if sufficient grounds were found, for proceedings to be taken against him by the local authority in that area. That is what would happen here, of course.
Your Lordships will appreciate that what I have said is virtually a repetition of what I said in answer to the identical Amendment tabled during the Committee stage of the Bill. I make no apology for this, because in my view no new points have been raised on this occasion. To say that because something has not happened inside the British Isles, therefore we should not get anything new and try to get reciprocity between the different parts of the British Isles is a theory which I cannot really accept.
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, I really do not think that the noble Lord, Lord Derwent, answered my noble friend's case. He said this—and I took it down: "The noble Lord, Lord Latham, thinks the importer an objectionable person". That was not my noble friend's case at all.

1157
What he wants, what indeed we want, and what I thought the noble Lord would want, is that importers should be subject to approximately the same conditions as manufacturers and producers in this country. Surely that is a reasonable case to put forward. So far as the consumer is concerned, unless we have that kind of position it means that the consumer has no redress in the event of trouble. The noble Earl, Lord Mansfield, in an intervention, put up a case which the noble Lord said he would answer subsequently, but in my view it was not properly answered.
The basic position is that in this Bill the Government are creating a class of exporters to this country whom they call "designated countries", and the noble Lord, Lord Derwent, said that the real reason for this was that we did not want to divide the outlying territories, as it were, from the mainland of the United Kingdom—or words to that effect. I think that is a very praiseworthy object which we should support, but surely it is not right, in doing that, to create a special position for them.
Perhaps I may take another analogy. There are different conditions with regard to income tax in the Channel Islands, and some people hie themselves off to the Channel Islands in order to escape what they regard as the punitive income tax in this country. Sometimes I think they are welcome exports from the United Kingdom mainland, and we could do without them. But this is a rather different thing. We are dealing here, as the noble Lord reminded my noble friend just now, with the Weights and Measures Bill, which is fundamentally designed to protect the consumer. We ought not to agree, therefore, that
certain offshore territories should be able to send their products here and that, if there were anything wrong with them, different conditions with regard to the protection of the ultimate purchaser, the consumer, would apply from those in force if those goods were produced in this country.
I do not underestimate the value of the wishes of the Government in introducing this particular Clause 28. But in my view it is entirely misconceived. When we are thinking in terms of weights and measures and the proper control, inspection and action where goods are faulty, it is wrong that we should create, as it were, this special class of suppliers against whom in certain circumstances, because of the reliance on the warranty, no action is possible. I do not think that the noble Lord has justified this state of affairs. I do not think he has taken this matter any further than we were in the Committee stage. This is something that we feel is quite indefensible, and it is an indication that the Government are prepared to take the risk of allowing importers opportunities to escape the consequences of selling defective imported goods. That is impossible to deny. That is just what this clause means, and it does not matter whether the goods come from the Channel Islands, the Isle of Man or Northern Ireland. That is the effect of this clause. We think that it is fundamentally wrong, and for that reason we think that this particular Amendment should be pressed.
6.25 p.m.
On Question, Whether the said Amendment (No. 14) shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 20; Not-Contents, 67.

CONTENTS

Alexander of Hillsborough, E.

Hughes, L.

Stonham, L.

Archibald, L.

Latham, L.

Summerskill, B.

Burden, L. [Teller.]

Lawson, L.

Walston, L.

Burton of Coventry, B.

Listowel, E.

Williams, L.

Champion, L.

Lucan, E. [Teller.]

Williams of Barnburgh, L.

Crook, L.

Sainsbury, L.

Williamson, L.

Henderson, L.

Sherwood, L.

NOT-CONTENTS

Abinger, L.

Auckland, L.

Bridgeman, V.

Ailsa, M.

Balfour of Burleigh, L.

Carrington, L.

Albemarle, E.

Bossom, L.

Chelmer, L.

Aldington, L.

Boyd of Merton, V.

Clitheroe, L.

Atholl, D.

Brecon, L.

Coleraine, L.

Colyton, L.

Jessel, L.

Robertson of Oakridge, L.

Conesford, L.

Kinnoull, E.

St. Aldwyn, E. [Teller.]

Craigton, L.

Lansdowne, M.

St. Oswald, L.

Crathorne, L.

Lloyd, L.

Salisbury, M.

De La Warr, E.

Long, V.

Salter, L.

Denham, L.

Lothian, M.

Sandwich, E.

Derwent, L.

Mabane, L.

Somers, L.

Dundee, E.

MacAndrew, L.

Soulbury, V.

Ferrers, E.

McCorquodale of Newton, L.

Spens, L.

Fortescue, E.

Mancroft, L.

Stuart of Findhorn, V.

Fraser of Lonsdale, L.

Mansfield, E.

Swinton, E.

Goschen, V. [Teller.]

Margesson, V.

Tenby, V.

Hailsham, V. (L. President.)

Massereene and Ferrard, V.

Tweedsmuir, L.

Hastings, L.

Mills, V.

Waldegrave, E.

Home, E.

Monsell, V.

Waleran, L.

Horsbrugh, B.

Poole, L.

Ward of Witley, V.

Ilford, L.

Remnant, L.

Woolton, E.

Jellicoe, E.

Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.

Resolved in the negative, Amendment disagreed to accordingly.
LORD DERWENT: My Lords, I beg to move that the Report stage be now adjourned.

EDUCATION (SCOTLAND) BILL
6.35 p.m.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE MINISTER OF STATE, SCOTTISH OFFICE (LORD CRAIGTON): My Lords, I think it is true to say that this important little Bill has been welcomed, not only by the Scottish local authorities hut, indeed, by all who are concerned about Scottish education. The four clauses of the Bill deal with four entirely separate subjects, and each clause represents progress in its own field. Clause 1 sets up an examination board whose principal task will be to conduct the annual Scottish Certificate of Education examination. The board will take over this work from the Scottish Education Department, who have been doing it for the last half century. This change has been welcomed by educational opinion in Scotland because it will give a greater share in the policy and running of examinations to representatives of all the partners in our educational system. The Bill creates the board and leaves to regulations, which have still to be drafted, the details, such as the exact membership of the board and its method of working.
This transfer of authority from central Government to a widely representative board has two important side effects. First, the cost of the board will be paid
1160
largely by the local authorities, but here the central Government is giving them considerable assistance. Until May, 1965, all the cost will be met direct by the Secretary of State. From May, 1965, the part of the cost attributable to running the examination will be met by the local authorities, but the whole of their contributions for the first year—that is, 1965–66—will be refunded to them through general grant. So, from the point of view of the local authority, the full cost for their first year and that amount for subsequent years w ill be 100 per cent. grant-aided. After the first year they will have to pay only any excess cost, which will, of course, be grant-aided in the normal proportion. Secondly, from the point of view of the Scottish Office, the fact that they will no longer have to conduct these annual examinations will be a welcome relief to the inspectorate, who will have much more time to devote to their important duties of visiting schools and advising them on their work.
Clause 2, subsection (1), puts right a point of doubt raised by the Select Committee on Statutory Instruments, and confirms the Secretary of State's power to make regulations in the form in which they have been made for several years. Clause 2, subsection (2), allows the Secretary of State to back-date pay awards. His inability to do this under the existing law caused unnecessary difficulty and confusion in cases where salary negotiations had become unduly protracted. For example, this year negotiations went on so long that we could not otherwise make the award from April 1, as we wished to do.
Clause 3 refers to pensions for the widows and dependants of teachers, and attempts to solve a problem that has been worrying us since 1956. The 1956 Act

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permitted the preparation of a scheme for widows, but allowed the scheme to be financed only by a reduction of the lump sum payment on retirement. Negotiations on detail broke down. An inquiry was held, and this clause is the result. The clause now allows the scheme to be financed either in whole or in part by the teachers paying annual contributions. The clause is so framed that there is the widest possible latitude in agreeing a scheme before regulations are produced. I welcome the co-operation that the Educational Institute of Scotland are giving us in attempting to arrive at a conclusion that is fair to all concerned.
Finally, Clause 4 is concerned with the membership of education committees and sub-committees. Under subsection (1) a teacher employed by an education authority can, for the first time in Scotland, become a member of an education committee or any sub-committee—teachers can, of course, already be nominated to education management sub-committees. Strong and divergent views are held by various authorities on the wisdom of this policy. But the Secretary of State has wisely decided that this is a matter for each local authority to decide for itself, so the clause is permissive and not mandatory.
Subsection (2) deals with the management sub-committees of local technical and commercial colleges. Already more than twenty are being built or will soon start to be built in Scotland. These technical and commercial colleges will be in no sense of the word schools: rather they will be local technical institutions playing an active part in the industrial life of the locality. For such institutions the statutory school management committee is wholly unsuitable. To succeed, these institutions must be directed by a combination of local education authority members and prominent people engaged in business and commerce. We want the invitation to participate in what I hope will be called the council of management to be a high honour, a mark of the esteem in which the man concerned is held in his community. Subsection (2) therefore permits the local authority to invite these prominent men to join the council of management. We feel sure that the local authorities and industry will respond to this opportunity. I can assure your Lordships that the Secretary
1162
of State will consider with great interest the schemes as they are put up to him by the local authorities, and we shall do all we can to make the councils of management worthy of the important task they have to do. This, then, is our little Bill, and I commend it to your Lordships. My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a second time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Craigton.)
6.45 p.m.
LORD HUGHES: My Lords, it seems to be the good fortune of the noble Lord, the Minister of State, to bring to this House Scottish Bills with which I find the greatest difficulty in disagreeing. Those on which I could really "go to town," I find the Parliamentary procedure stops me doing anything about; because I always want to deal with financial matters, of which another place is very jealous. In this case I find it difficult in any way to disagree with the excellent statement of the purposes of the Bill which the noble Lord, Lord Craigton, has just given us.
I think the proposals which the Government make in Clause 1 are excellent. In relation to the second part of Clause 2, (the power to make pay awards retrospective), I think the Government are wise in accepting the fact that, of all salary negotiations, none prove to be more protracted than those on teachers' salaries, because they cover a profession with such a tremendous range that it is impossible for a decision to be reached quickly. It is perhaps conducive to arriving at a wrong decision; because people are, in fact, under some constraint to arrive at what they believe to be wrong decisions in order to get something through quickly. It is both reasonable and generous that the Government should make it possible to back-date these awards. In regard to Clause 3, I am not quite sure whether the Minister implied, in referring to consultation with the Educational Institute of Scotland, that they were, in fact, in complete agreement with this proposal. If it has come forward as a result of agreement with the education authorities or, rather, with representatives of teachers in Scotland, then I should not wish to take any exception to it.

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Clause 4 is the one on which I find the greatest difficulty. I admit that I am not an enthusiastic supporter of permitting school teachers to be members of education authorities. There is not the slightest doubt that over a large field of the work of an education authority the teacher can make an excellent contribution to the deliberations of the committee. But the fact remains that he is an interested party and, human nature being what it is, he will be tempted to take a very great interest in the things which concern him personally. Also I doubt whether, once that trend has been started in education committees, it can be stopped in that direction. Are we to find that what are now called street orderlies (they used to be called scavengers in Scotland) are going to be members of the cleansing committee? Are police officers to be members of the police committee, and so on? There is just as good a case to be made out there. I shall not oppose the clause, because it is permissive. I doubt very much whether many education authorities in Scotland will seek to take advantage of this permissive power.
Finally the noble Lord, Lord Craigton, commended the second part of Clause 4 particularly to the goodwill of people of influence and importance in local authorities. I should like to echo that. I think this is a very worthwhile task. My only point of slight disagreement arises from my doubt whether it would be wise if this were regarded as a sort of honour, as a substitute for, say, a deputy lieutenancy, or even for someone who is too old to become a justice of the peace, and as a kind of mark of local esteem. The prime consideration is that they should be people of influence, but people who can make, and are willing to make, a contribution to and affect the working of this worthwhile field of further education. If the sort of person the noble Lord, Lord Craigton, has in mind is prepared to accept membership of a management committee in that spirit, then he or she will be making a worthwhile contribution to educational progress in our country. I would assure them from my
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own experience in these and other fields, that they will find it rewarding work. Having entered only one very little note in demurring about the membership of education committees, I welcome the Bill generally.
THE EARL OF MANSFIELD: My Lords, on Clause 4 of this Bill the noble Lord, Lord Hughes, has expressed doubts with which I am in full agreement. Frankly, I am sorry that such a provision should have been introduced. It goes away from the old, long-established and well-tried idea that a member of a local authority should not be at the same time, in any circumstances, the servant of that authority. I feel with the noble Lord, Lord Hughes, that this is opening the door to something which may go a great deal further: because, as he asked, why should this movement be confined to members of the education profession? I think, with him, that a great many of the county councils of Scotland will be very loth to agree with what I myself feel to be a considerable mistake. Otherwise, I regard the Bill as excellent.
LORD CRAIGTON: My Lords, I am grateful for the welcome that this Bill has received and I note the points of the noble Earl, Lord Mansfield, and the noble Lord, Lord Hughes, about Clause 4(1). I know that strong doubts are felt about the wisdom of putting this provision in the Bill. On the other hand he knows that there are equally strong views disagreeing with him. I feel that it is proper, democratic and the right thing for the Government to do to make this permissive and not mandatory, and to leave it to each local authority to make its own decision. Apart from that I am grateful for the welcome from Lord Hughes on Clause 3. No proposal has been agreed with the E.I.S. but they are co-operating with us now that the Clause gives the greatest possible latitude to find the right policy. On Clause 4(2) I agree with the noble Lord that we want people who will actively co-operate: we do not want passengers. We want people who feel it their duty and their pride to help the local community.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

SHERIFF COURTS (CIVIL JURISDICTION AND PROCEDURE) (SCOTLAND) BILL
6.50 p.m.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
LORD HUGHES: My Lords, it has often been the opening gambit of the noble Lord, Lord Craigton, in presenting a Scottish Bill to your Lordships' House, to say, "This is a useful but little Bill." I did not think he would give me the opportunity of being responsible for a Bill to which the same adjectives could be applied. It is perhaps fortunate that this Bill, to which I now invite your Lordships to give a Second Reading, is not only useful and little, but has also received a complete non-Party welcome in another place.
The purpose of the Bill is to enable certain types of action to be handled in a cheaper and more expeditious form than is the case at the present time. The Bill is quite short and does four things. It raises from £50 to £250 the upper limit of civil jurisdiction of the sheriff's summary court. That is in Clause 1. In Clause 2, it raises from £20 to £50 the upper limit of civil jurisdiction in the sheriff's small debt court. In the first part of Clause 3, it makes it competent to bring action between spouses for interim aliment in the sheriff's small debt court, if the aliment claimed does not exceed £5 a week for the wife or husband (it is very rarely a husband, but it is possible), and £1 10s. a week for each child. Secondly, it makes it competent for either spouse to sue for the amount of interim aliment due in the sheriff court within the jurisdiction within which he or she resides. That is a new departure from normal Scottish legal procedure, which is based on residence, and the defender must be pursued to the sheriff court in whose jurisdiction he or she resides.
If I may go over these clauses briefly, the present procedure in summary causes is covered by the Sheriff Courts (Scotland) Act, 1907, and in this summary procedure the sheriff can order such procedure as he thinks requisite and can dispose of the cause without delay by interlocutor containing findings in fact and in law. A record of the evidence is not made unless the sheriff orders
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this on the motion of one of the parties. If such a record has been made, judgment is subject to review on questions of fact and of law, but if the evidence has not been recorded, only the findings in law are subject to review.
The parties to any action may consent that it may be tried summarily, otherwise the limit of summary cause jurisdiction is fixed, by Section 3 of the Act of 1907, at £50. This Bill raises that figure to £250, which is not unreasonable, having regard to the change in the value of money during the more than half a century which has elapsed. Your Lordships will appreciate that one of the effects of this—a side effect, which perhaps some people may consider undesirable—is to deprive certain people of the right of appeal which they have at the present moment. Because their case is between £50 and £250, it is not dealt with in summary fashion and is therefore appealable both in law and in fact, and that will not now be the case. It was felt in another place—and I hope that your Lordships will also feel—that this is not an unreasonable price to pay for the conveniences which will flow from bringing the amount to a more up-to-date figure.
The same principle lies behind increasing the limit in the sheriff's small debt court. The present figure is £20, exclusive of expenses. That relates to an Act passed in 1857, but I hasten to add that the level of £20 was not fixed in 1857. It has been subject to review, I do not know whether more than once, but the present £20 dates back also to 1907. It may well be argued that the £50 limit is lower than could be justified by the change in the value of money but, for a variety of reasons, we feel that £50 is perhaps a reasonable figure to substitute for the previous £20.
The third clause, and one of the most useful parts of this Bill, extends the jurisdiction for summary actions for interim aliment. There are many cases where a woman who has been deserted by her husband, and who wishes to take action of this kind, finds that she has to go to the High Court and go through a more formal procedure. The result has been to create a great deal of hardship, which I suppose, at the end of the day, is borne by the Government: because instead of being the immediate responsibility of her erring husband, she falls back on

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National Assistance. I would add that I am quite sure that my honourable friend who was responsible for introducing this Bill in another place did not do so merely with the intention of relieving the Government of this burden, but to give more effective help to the injured spouse as quickly as possible. Again this raises the point that a fairly large sum of money could be involved in this and an erring spouse (if that is the correct term to use at this stage) is also deprived of the right of appeal, except in the most remote circumstances. The cases where an appeal can be made are so few and so unlikely that there is virtually no right of appeal. But I submit to your Lordships that the balance of hardship is much greater on the part of the injured spouse in present circumstances than could possibly be conferred on the erring spouse if this change is brought about.
The final point, about enabling action to be raised in the sheriff court where the pursuer resides, is again in the interests of speedy remedy for the person who has been injured. If relief should be forthcoming, it is important that it should be done easily and speedily, and from that point of view I would particularly commend this provision to your Lordships.
My Lords, that covers the whole range of the Bill. The suggested date for its coming into operation is October 1 next. Any action in existence then will, of course, be dealt with under the present procedure. With these words, which I hope will commend themselves to your Lordships, and particularly to my noble friend the Minister of State, I beg to move that this little and useful Bill be given a Second Reading.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Hughes.)
6.59 p.m.
LORD GUEST: My Lords, it gives me great pleasure to congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Hughes, on introducing this Bill, which brings some of the provisions of the Sheriff Courts (Scotland) Act, 1907, up to date. It is an Amendment which has long been overdue. The limits of £20 and £50 respectively were fixed in 1907, and no one can deny that money values have decreased enormously since that date. I give the Bill a general welcome. My only criticism relates to Clause 3
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which, as the noble Lord, Lord Hughes, has said, confers upon the sheriff, sitting in his jurisdiction as a small debt court, jurisdiction to entertain actions for interim aliment where the sum awarded is not more than £5 a week for a wife and 30s for each child.
Interim aliment is really a misnomer, because all aliment is interim in the sense that it is conditional and may be varied at any time. But it has been decided quite recently in the courts in Scotland that an action directed by a wife against a husband, so long as the husband shall refuse to receive and entertain his wife, is an action of interim aliment, and is therefore competent. That would mean that a sheriff would have jurisdiction to award a sum of no less than £260 per annum for the wife, and up to £468 per annum in the case of a wife who has six children. These are very substantial sums, and when your Lordships are told that the only grounds upon which an appeal can be made against such a decision are to the High Court of Justiciary on grounds of corruption or malice and oppression, deviation of a formal procedure or incompetence, you will realise that this puts a substantial impediment in the way of a husband who feels that his case has been wrongly decided. It means that there is in fact no appeal on fact or law from a decision in a small debt action.
I believe that in the 50 years or thereby since this Act has been in force there have been only two successful appeals. The process is expensive, because it has to be at the High Court of Justiciary when that court is sitting, and the appellant has to employ counsel, and so really it is a useless appeal. In view of the jurisdiction conferred upon the small debt court, I should have been anxious to move an Amendment on the Committee stage to provide an appeal on questions of law; but I regret that, owing to technical difficulties, it is not possible to move that Amendment in this place.
I agree with what the noble Lord, Lord Hughes, said, that the balance may be in favour of expediency, but sometimes it is a mistake to sacrifice justice on the altar of expediency or economy. However, it is particularly desirable that such an appeal should be open when it is remembered that failure to implement a decree for aliment is still possible if followed by

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a civil imprisonment. I would ask the noble Lord, Lord Craigton, if and when this matter of the jurisdiction of the sheriff court is being considered, to consider if it is right that such a large jurisdiction should be conferred upon the small debt court without any real right of redress. But I have no doubt that sheriffs will, in exercise of their wise discretion, in the meantime, not make awards which would impose a substantial liability without any chance of redress. This might suitably be done by limiting the period for which interim aliment ran and leaving it to the pursuant wife to come again before the court if she wished that aliment to continue.
I wish to say only one word about Clause 3(2), which really gives a universal jurisdiction in the case of actions for interim aliment within any sheriffdom in Scotland. I think that is a highly desirable measure. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Hughes, that there is really no substance in the objection that by increasing the upper limit in these actions you are denying any persons the right of appeal which they presently have. Of course that is true, to some extent; but one must not forget the fall in money values, and must remember that these actions are really for substantially less important cases than might otherwise have been thought. On the whole matter, I welcome the Bill and give it my blessing.
7.4 p.m.
THE EARL OF MANSFIELD: My Lords, there are only one or two points I should like to mention. The first is that I must say that I do not quite understand why, when the limit of summary action has been raised from £50 to £250, the limit for a small debt has been raised only from £20 to £50. As the noble Lord, Lord Guest, in his most interesting speech pointed out, the principal Act was passed as long ago as 1907 and there has been a considerable fall in the value of money since then. I think it would be well for the Government to consider whether that maximum figure of £50 for the small debt court should not be raised to £100.
There is no doubt that this Bill, small though it may be—and I cannot say that I altogether agree about its smallness—is going to be of great benefit, because
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often in the past people who were owed a small amount, a little in excess of £20, hesitated before bringing an action, because as everyone who has had the misfortune to be in the law courts knows, even if you win and get your costs, those costs seldom, if ever, amount to what your real expenditure and out-of-pocket expenses are. There will now be opportunity taken of bringing legitimate actions, about which in many cases previously hesitation has been felt. The noble Lord, Lord Guest, has pointed out one decided blemish in the Bill, and I feel that the Government ought to consider carefully whether something can be done to correct it. Apart from that, there is no doubt that this is an excellent measure which will be widely appreciated throughout Scotland.
LORD CRAIGTON: My Lords, I have noted what was said by the noble Lord, Lord Guest, and my noble friend Lord Mansfield, and I can assure them that their constructive speeches will be examined whenever the first opportunity occurs. But this is a Private Member's Bill, and it is not for me either to wind up or to make any comments on the Bill itself. We as the Government welcome the measure. I do not twist Lord Hughes's tail about this; I congratulate him. Times change, and without little Bills of this nature the law would not reflect these changes So, with the congratulations and blessing of the Government, I hope your Lordships will approve this Bill.
LORD HUGHES: My Lords, I am grateful for the welcome which has been grateful given to this Bill, and I should like to thank the noble Lords, Lord Craigton and Lord Guest, and the noble Earl, Lord Mansfield, for their contributions. I must say right away that I cannot in logic disagree with what Lord Mansfield said about the differentiation between raising from £50 to £250, on the one hand, and from £20 to £50, on the other. I should think that the position stems from the fact that in another place, although they recognised that the value of money has changed very much, they could not bring themselves to regard a sum greater than £50, even in these modern times, as being a small debt; and sometimes in making changes of this kind it is better not to be completely logical.

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With regard to the possible injustice that may be done—and this is a point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Guest—on the action for interim aliment, and particularly on the misnomer about its interim nature, I understand it is difficult to make an Amendment of that nature at this stage without running the risk that there will be no Bill at all, because if it has to go back to another place, that, I think, will be the last we shall hear of it. I do not think that in practice there will be a great deal of hardship, or any at all, from this right of appeal, but one cannot say with certainty that it will not arise. An alteration of this nature, as I think the noble and learned Lord. Lord Guest, hinted, is one which could properly be considered by the Government
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in reviewing the jurisdiction procedure generally. But to incorporate a right of appeal of this kind in this measure, even assuming that we could get it put in, would be to enter into a wider field and to do something which would more properly, I think, be done at another time and in another measure. I thank your Lordships for the welcome you have given to this Bill and hope that in due course we shall be able to complete it in its present form.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.
House adjourned at eleven minutes past seven o'clock.