Sitting of 27 February 1963

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
NEW WRIT
For Colne Valley, in the room of the right hon. William George Glenvil Hall, deceased.—[Mr. Bowden.]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  ROYAL AIR FORCE

    Departmental Employees (Day Release Classes)
    Mr. Boydenasked the Secretary of State for Air how many juveniles in his Department aged 15 to 18 years, in industrial grades but not apprenticed, attend day release classes; and what percentage this forms of this category of employee.
    The Secretary of State for Air (Mr. Hugh Fraser): Nineteen; this is equivalent to 9 per cent.
    Mr. Boyden: These figures are very small. Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that he has an obligation to his other colleagues, notably the Minister of Education, to get this figure up to nearly 100 per cent. and ensure that Civil Service Departments, his own in particular, give every encouragement to day release?
    Mr. Fraser: The hon. Gentleman has a Question down about what we are trying to do. On non-industrial grades it is as high as nearly 50 per cent.
    Mr. Boydenasked the Secretary of State for Air what steps his Department takes to encourage juveniles aged 16 to l8 years to attend day release classes.
    Mr. H. Fraser: On joining the Department, young people are interviewed, given full information about the day release
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    scheme, and encouraged to attend classes. If a young person is interested, then or later, we help in the choice of classes, pay any necessary fees, provide books and help with travelling expenses.
    Mr. Boyden: Fifty per cent. is very much lower than the figure for other Departments. What is to stop the Air Ministry making attendance at classes compulsory as is done in one or two other Departments?
    Mr. Fraser: I have looked at that question. I do not think it would work in the Air Ministry. These are, on the whole, voluntary classes. If they are overloaded with people who really do not want to attend them it holds back those who do.
    Mr. Boyden: What is the difference between the Air Ministry and the Home Office, for example?
    Mr. Fraser: Ours is a rather better Ministry.

    Britannia Aircraft
    Mr. H. Hyndasked the Secretary of State for Air whether Transport Command proposes to use some of the Britannia aircraft now available from British Overseas Airways Corporation.
    Mr. H. Fraser: No, Sir.
    Mr. Hynd: Is it true that there are quite a number of Britannias surplus to requirements lying at London Airport in the present ownership of B.O.A.C.? Is it also a fact that trooping overseas is now done entirely by air? Would it not be in the interests of the taxpayer if these two facts could be related?
    Mr. Fraser: I have been into this in considerable detail. The saving, because of the time scale, would be almost negligible. It would mean retraining crews. They are not quite the right type of aircraft. They are rather old. I have looked at this matter most carefully and at the moment I must say that I see no advantage in taking these aircraft.
    Sir C. Osborne: Has any definite offer been made by the Chinese Government for any of these?
    Mr. Fraser: That is a matter for the the Minister of Aviation.
    Mr. Mulley: I accept that it may not be necessarily the right policy to buy second-hand planes, but I hope that the right hon. Gentleman's answer is not to be construed as meaning that he is complacent about the very great deficiencies in Transport Command and our total inability to provide the mobility we need.
    Mr. Fraser: I hope that the hon. Gentleman will take back some of that statement. It is slightly exaggerated. I am not complacent. The V.C.10, the Belfast and other replacements will meet most of the need.

    Weather Forecasts (Temperatures)
    Mr. Bowlesasked the Secretary of State for Air whether he will give instructions, now that the Brussels talks have broken down, that meteorological temperatures given by the Meteorological Office should be given only in Fahrenheit.
    Mr. H. Fraser: No, Sir. The introduction of centigrade in weather forecasts had no connection with the Common Market negotiations.
    Mr. Bowles: I do not always accept what Government spokesmen say about the Common Market. Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, apart from one letter, I have had a great number of letters and communications from people who ask me to state on behalf of the public as a whole their disgust and unhappiness at and inability to follow the temperatures given by the Air Ministry in centesimal? Does the right hon. Gentleman know what the correct Fahrenheit reading is for 39 degrees centesimal?
    Mr. Fraser: I will have to ask my Department. In point of fact, they are given in both scales. The decision was the result of a recommendation by the Meteorological Committee. There was wide consultation with industry, public utilities. and industral and research organisations. I think that on the whole this is satisfactory, certainly for young people, rather than for the hon. Gentleman and myself. Young people are being Instructed in centigrade/Fahrenheit conversion and I am sure that this is the best method to pursue.
    Mr. Bowles: May I have an assurance that Fahrenheit will never be completely dropped?
    Mr. Fraser: That is a wider question. I can assure the hon. Gentleman that that will be done only when it is acceptable to the general public.
    Mr. Bowles: In view of the public interest in this matter, I should like some time to raise this matter on the Adjournment?
    Mr. Speaker: I wish we could adhere to the usual formula.

    Pensions
    Mr. E. Johnsonasked the Secretary of State for Air how much pension, including all increases, is received by a 55-years-old widow of a wing commander who retired after maximum service in 1958 and died on 3rd November, 1958; and how much it would be if her husband had retired this year and died today.
    Mr. H. Fraser: £233 a year and £380 a year respectively.
    Mr. Johnson: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the widow of a chief executive officer in the Civil Service who retired this year and died today would receive much the same pension as the widow of a wing commander, but if both husbands had died on 3rd November, 1958, the widow of the civil servant would receive £79 more? Does my right hon. Friend think that it is right that widows of officers whose husbands died before 4th November, 1958, should be left on this obsolete code while, at the same time, we are being constantly assured that there must be equal treatment for all public servants?
    Mr. Fraser: As my hon. Friend knows, this is a most complex question. The rate of pension is governed by the conditions that applied at the date of widowhood. This necessarily involves line-drawing as between pre-Grigg and post-Grigg widows. However, I should like to point out that, owing to the Pensions (Increase) Act, 1962, the theoretical widow to whom my hon. Friend referred received a pension starting at £180 which, by a variety of increases, has now reached £233.
    Dame Irene Ward: Am I to understand from my right hon. Friend's Answer that he does not think that the present arrangements for elderly Service widows are

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    satisfactory? If I am right in my interpretation, when does he intend to ensure that the Cabinet understands that a great many hon. Members are absolutely annoyed beyond grief at the continuous plight of these elderly widows? When does my right hon. Friend propose to do something about the matter?
    Mr. Fraser: There has been an improvement, but I would point out that this goes wider across the field than Service widows. A whole variety of pensioners are involved and this is a wide problem to which I cannot possibly give a satisfactory answer at Question Time.
    Mr. E. Johnsonasked the Secretary of State for Air how much Service pension would be received by the widow, who is between 40 and 60 years of age, of a sergeant in the Royal Air Force discharged after 22 years' service before 1st September, 1950, between 1st September, 1950, and 4th November, 1958, assuming in both cases that widowhood occurred before 4th November, 1958, and at the present time, respectively.
    Mr. H. Fraser: None, none and one-third of her husband's pension or £1 2s. 5d. a week whichever is the greater.
    Mr. Johnson: Can my right hon. Friend give the number of widows in the first two categories or, if the figures are not available, can he find them out? What consideration has been given to doing something to help those widows who get no pension whatever although their husbands had very long service in the Forces?
    Mr. Fraser: If I may, I will certainly write to my hon. Friend on the first point. On the second point, I must point out that in 1953 there was the first measure of improvement made for 100 years; and it was made by the present Government.
    Dame Irene Ward: Owing to us.
    Mr. Fraser: In addition, there has been wide improvement made since 1958; and to say that our record is bad would be incorrect because, on the whole, our record has been remarkably good. Of course, there are anomalies and these are being considered by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence.
    Commander Purseyasked the Secretary of State for Air if he will state the increases in the ordinary armed forces widows' pensions, on 1st January, 1963, for the over-60 but under-70 widow of a group captain, a sergeant and an aircraftman, pensioned under the 1950 Code, where the husband gave full-time service since 31st August, 1950, bereavement occurred after 4th November, 1958, and rates drawn are maximum rates.
    Mr. H. Fraser: £42 5s., £13 Os. 10d. and £9 bs. 11d. a year respectively.
    Commander Pursey: When will the Service Ministers and the Minister of Defence produce a worth-while pension scheme for the widows of other ranks, more commensurate with the present-day Tory, expensive, affluent society and give these poor widows more pennies and halfpennies before giving further large increases, as advocated by hon. Members opposite, to senior officers' widows?
    Mr. Fraser: I must remind the hon. and gallant Member that these are occupational and not subsistence pensions and must be paid on the basis of service and of rank. I would also remind him that the last Pensions (Increase) Measure was the most costly and generous in the history of this kind of legislation. In particular, we introduced the aged-70 supplement for the benefit of the most elderly.
    Commander Purseyasked the Secretary of State for Air if he will state the increases in ordinary armed forces pensions on 1st January, 1963, for an over-60 but under-70 group captain, a sergeant and an aircraftman, pensioned under the 1950 Code, where the rates drawn are maximum rates.
    Mr. H. Fraser: £126 10s., £38 18s., and £27 12s. a year respectively.
    Commander Pursey: When will the Service Ministers and the Minister of Defence produce a pension increase scheme for other ranks with the same increases as for the "brass hats". observing that the aircraftman has to shop in the same markets and suffers from the same cost-of-living increases but the lowest pensions get the lowest increases, in pennies and halfpennies, as they did in the time of William IV and Queen Victoria?

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    Is it not high time to stop this nonsense of talking about the good pension increases on a percentage basis when the average pension of an aircraftman is £1 a day and an N.C.O.'s 30s., which was what was decided upon after the First World War in April, 1919?
    Mr. Fraser: I thank the hon. and gallant Member for his remarks, but I must point out that before 1953 and 1958 a great many ex-Service men received no pensions at all.

    United States Weather Bureau (30-Day Predictions)
    Mr. Gresham Cookeasked the Secretary of State for Air whether, in view of the reliable forecasts put out by United States weather forecasts of British weather in January, he will seek guidance from United States forecasters as to the possibility of predicting any severe weather conditions next winter.
    Mr. H. Fraser: The Meteorological Office has close contact with the United States Weather Bureau.
    The weather bureau considers that its 30-day predictions have shown "some modest success", but warns users that too much weight should not be given to one forecast, particularly for a specific area.
    Experience over a number of years has not so far shown that these "Outlooks" for the Northern Hemisphere as a whole can be relied on as a guide to forthcoming weather in this country, which lies in an area of particularly variable weather.
    Mr. Gresham Cooke: Would my right hon. Friend agree that the 30-day forecasts issued by the Americans for these islands for December, January and February have been remarkably accurate? As I understand that the Meteorological Office produces 30-day forecasts for its own use, would it not be a good thing for it to produce, next October or November, a similar 30-day forecast for this country to give us warning should another severe winter be threatened?
    Mr. Fraser: I wish I could, but one must be cautious about these things. If one takes a wider range of statistics one finds that of 108 cases of United States outlooks checked on London data, 32 proved correct. We are, therefore, at
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    the moment at the stage of improving the system, but the present method of long-range forecasting is by no means perfect. It may have been a fluke but certainly it was extraordinarily accurate over the last cold spell.
    Mr. Ellis Smith: Does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that, in view of the great service rendered by the men engaged in this work, questions of this character are to be deprecated?
    Mr. Eden: Is there a British weather satellite programme in being? If not, why not and what are we waiting for?
    Mr. Fraser: There are better ways of spending money. I agree that there should be other satellite programmes in being, but I feel that we are still being well served by the weather ships and other methods of collecting the information.
    Mr. Money: Before we get involved in a discussion on the sort of weather we may expect next winter, can the right hon. Gentleman tell us, from his expert advice, when the present winter will come to an end?

    Strength
    Mr. Emrys Hughesasked the Secretary of State for Air to what extent he anticipates redundancy in the Royal Air Force following the reappraisal of air strategy contemplated in the Nassau Agreement.
    Mr. H. Fraser: I do not expect any.
    Mr. Hughes: Surely the right hon. Gentleman has heard of the Nassau Agreement? Surely that- means running down the Royal Air Force? Does the Secretary of State not look far enough ahead to see that there will probably be an unemployment and redundancy problem? What is he doing to safeguard his job and the jobs of those employed in the Air Force?
    Mr. Fraser: I look a good deal further ahead than does the hon. Gentleman. I can assure him that the strength of the Royal Air Force is continually under review from the manning point of view. The V-Bomber force will maintain the deterrent until the end of the 1960s.

    V-Bombers (Hydrogen Bombs)
    Mr. Frank Allaunasked the Secretary of State for Air (1) what steps he is taking to ensure that crews of V-bombers carrying hydrogen bombs in round-the-clock patrols at times of world tension do not release their bombs through misinterpreting signals or through other kinds of mistake;
    (2) if, in order to reduce world tension, especially at times of crisis, he will reverse the decision that V-bombers should carry hydrogen bombs in round-the-clock patrols.
    Mr. H. Fraser: No decision has been taken that V-bombers should carry hydrogen bombs in round-the-clock patrols.
    The most stringent precautions are taken to exclude the possibility of a hydrogen bomb being released from a V-bomber either through misunderstanding or accident.
    Mr. Allaun: Is the Secretary of State aware that I am very pleased to hear that, because it conflicts with the widespread Press reports to the contrary? Does he not think that such flights being put into operation would heighten world tension at the very moment when the Government should be doing everything possible to reduce tension? Has the right hon. Gentleman forgotten the instance when the radar screens somehow picked up the rising of the moon and bombers were dispatched towards the point of no return?
    Mr. Fraser: I am certain of one thing: measures to increase the effectiveness of the deterrent will reduce, and not increase, the possibility of tension.
    Mr. Mason: Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that only in extreme circumstances should there be any live bomb patrols? If Fylingdales does its work properly and can give four minutes' warning—and since Bomber Command has been practising the 90-second takeoff—surely there is no reason at all why live bombs should be carried, except in extreme circumstances.
    Mr. Fraser: I was talking about the extreme situation.

    Gan (Security)
    Mr. B. Harrisonasked the Secretary of State for Air whether he is satisfied with the security situation at Gan, and that he will be able to maintain the Royal Air Force staging post there indefinitely; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. H. Fraser: By the Agreement of 14th February, 1960, between Her Majesty's Government and the Government of the Maldive Islands, we enjoy until 1986 the unrestricted and exclusive use of Gan Island and the associated defence facilities elsewhere in Addu Atoll. I see no reason why these arrangements should not run their full term, or beyond should both Governments wish to extend them. I am fully satisfied with our measures for the security of our installations.
    Mr. Harrison: In view of this welcome assurance, will my right hon. Friend do everything possible to bring pressure to bear on his right hon. Friend to settle the political differences there are between the different factions on these atolls?
    Mr. Fraser: I hope that these negotiations can be successfully concluded.

    Record Office, Gloucester (Cleaning)
    Mr. Diamondasked the Secretary of State for Air how many employees have been declared redundant, and how much money has been saved as a result of the decision to put the cleaning task at the Royal Air Force Record Office, Gloucester, out to contract.
    Mr. H. Fraser: Eleven full-time and 62 part-time employees, all women, were declared redundant. Alternative employment was available for all the full-time employees who wanted it. The part-time employees were given the opportunity of applying for jobs with the cleaning contractor, and the majority took it.
    As regards savings, these are likely to be about 25 per cent.
    Mr. Diamond: Does the Secretary of State think that the present time is the most appropriate for a Government Department deliberately to increase

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    redundancy by its own direct action? Does he think that his reply about a saving of 25 per cent. gives any information at all? One has not the foggiest idea of what 100 per cent. is. Will the right hon. Gentleman tell me what the saving is in £ s. d.? The Question has been down on the Order Paper. Will he at the same time explain how it comes about that, instead of using direct labour, a private contractor is employed who has to make his own profit in addition to paying the wages of those employed and yet a saving is made, unless there was inefficiency in the Department earlier?
    Mr. Fraser: The hon. Member knows full well that figures of £ s. d. in contracts are not revealed, and I do not propose to reveal them. As for the remainder of the question, the principles which the hon. Member has enunciated are not accurate. We have seen again and again that it is possible to employ these people and in this type of work to reduce the expenditure, even granting that there is a profit to the company concerned. The hon. Member, as one employed in many private industrial companies, knows that this is perfectly possible.
    Mr. Diamond: On a point of order. I regard the Answer as wholly unsatisfactory and beg to give notice that I will seek to raise this matter on the Adjournment.

    Officers, Bomber Command
    Mr. Emrys Hughesasked the Secretary of State for Air if, in view of the change in Her Majesty's Government's nuclear policy, he will organise a series of refresher courses for officers of Bomber Command.
    Mr. H. Fraser: Training in Bomber Command is continuous.
    Mr. Hughes: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of a statement made recently by the chairman of the Conservative Party Defence Committee that the morale of Bomber Command has never been lower? How far does the right hon. Gentleman agree with that?
    Mr. Fraser: My hon. and gallant Friend was a distinguished member of the Royal Air Force, but on this point am in day-to-day contact with Bomber
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    Command and I take an entirely different view.
    Sir C. Osborne: By how much will Bomber Command be reduced when Polaris is in full action?
    Mr. Fraser: That remains to be seen. It will be a question obviously for after 1970. Up to 1970 Bomber Command will carry the main weight of the British deterrent. After that, we must look at the world situation and decide accordingly.

    Married Quarters, South Wales
    Mr. G. Thomasasked the Secretary of State for Air whether he will abandon his attempts to evict the Cardiff family about whom the hon. Member for Cardiff, West, wrote to him on 2nd February, 1963; and whether he will make a statement.
    Mr. H. Fraser: The airman concerned was warned last April that his family could not remain in their present accommodation when he went to Sharjah. He was told they could move to a surplus married quarter elsewhere and this offer is still open. Formal notice to quit was served shortly after he was posted in July and as several offers of alternative accommodation were not accepted a court order for eviction was obtained this month. As there is a waiting list for married quarters at St. Athan, I would not be justified in abandoning the eviction proceedings.
    Mr. Thomas: Is the Minister aware that I regard the letter which he sent to me about this case as particularly callous in view of the fact that he considers that men who have served in the R.A.F. must take the risk that when their children are going to take the school certificate examination they might be shifted about overnight? As this family are paying the full economic rent of over £5 a week, and four children are involved, may I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman is likely to put them out on the street if he goes ahead with the order? Since even bad landlords do not behave like this, may I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman will give this young lad a chance to take his school certificate examination this year in the school which he has been attending?
    Mr. Fraser: I hope that I have not been unsympathetic about this case. The fact is that Service personnel have to move

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    about the country and about the world. This is inevitable. Their families have to move when they move so that their accommodation can be occupied by other families. We have a waiting list of 250 at St. Athan, and I am afraid that I cannot give the case of an individual family priority over the rest of the Service. I am sorry about this.
    Mr. Thomas: If this family refuses to go to Cheshire, where there is the alternative accommodation, does the right hon. Gentleman intend to put the mother and four children out on the street? Will he answer that question?
    Mr. Fraser: I feel unable to abandon these proceedings.
    Mr. G. Thomasasked the Secretary of State for Air what is the number of married quarters his Department has at the disposal of Royal Air Force personnel in South Wales.
    Mr. H. Fraser: Six hundred and seventy-nine, including hirings.
    Mr. Thomas: Will the right hon. Gentleman say how many of these are empty at present or how many have been empty for any given period?
    Mr. Fraser: No, Sir. We have a waiting list of 250 at the moment. We are planning to build another 143 married quarters in the area.
    Mr. Thomas: On a point of order. In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply given to Question No. 14, I beg to give notice that I will raise the matter on the Adjournment.
    Mr. Speaker: It is too late to give notice with respect to that Question but giving notice now does not affect it one way or the other.

    Conscientious Objectors
    Mrs. Butlerasked the Secretary of State for Air what is the policy of his Department in regard to the release of men who become convinced conscientious objectors after having entered the Service.
    Mr. H. Fraser: An airman who has received a court-martial sentence of three or more months' detention or imprisonment for an offence against Air Force discipline committed on grounds of con-
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    science may appear before the Appellate Tribunal of the Ministry of Labour.
    Mrs. Butler: Is it not unsatisfactory that boys of 16, many of whom are very immature, should be obliged to commit themselves for a 12-year period? Would it not be possible, and in the best interests of the Service as well as the boys, to enable them to be considered by a tribunal without having to go through this procedure of committing an offence, being court-martialled and discharged?
    Mr. Fraser: This is a very difficult point. I would put it this way to the hon. Lady. There is a danger that persons who wish to get out the Service for various other reasons may wish to say that they are conscientious objectors. This is a very serious problem in the Service.
    Mrs. Butler: Surely the right hon. Gentleman could take steps to ensure that it was a responsible tribunal with experience that considered this matter.

    Departmental Headquarters (Staff)
    Miss Herbisonasked the Secretary of State for Air if he will state the present location of his Department's headquarters, and the number of persons currently employed at those headquarters.
    Mr. H. Fraser: The Air Ministry headquarters staff totals about 7,400 Service and civilian personnel of whom 6,100 are in Central London, 400 on the outskirts of London, 660 at Harrogate and 240 at Worcester and Gloucester. In addition, there are about 900 staff of the Meteorological Office at their headquarters at Bracknell.
    Miss Herbison: Since these figures show that by far the greater number are in Central London, may I ask whether there is any reason why they should be? Is not this a way in which the Government could help to provide employment, say, in the north of England or in Scotland? Will the Minister give some serious consideration to taking part of this work to one of the areas where unemployment is so heavy?
    Mr. Fraser: As the hon. Lady will know, on 25th February my right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary announced that we are setting up a committee to

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    look into the question of departments and their locations. So far as Scotland is concerned, in our out-stations we employ over 2,300 civilians.
    Mr. Lipton: Are all of these 7.000 people doing a grand job of work?
    Mr. Fraser: Grand, and I am glad to say that we have reduced the staff by some 700 over the last five years.

    Air Marshals
    Mr. H. Hyndasked the Secretary of State for Air how many air marshals of various grades are now serving; and how this figure compares with the total last year.
    Mr. H. Fraser: There were 95 on 1st January, 1963, compared with 99 on the same date last year.
    Mr. Hynd: Whilst offering congratulations to the right hon. Gentleman for the slight reduction in the number, may I ask whether the Royal Air Force really needs 95 people of that rank? Is it not top-heavy, just the same as the other two Services?
    Mr. Fraser: No, Sir, we need these men. Fourteen of them are serving in international and inter-Service appointments and eight of them in medical and dental branches, which are of great importance.
    Mr. Paget: May we take it that the introduction of Polaris will not produce any redundancy amongst air marshals?

    R.A.F. Station, Greenham Common
    Sir A. Hurdasked the Secretary of State for Air, if he will make a statement on the future of Greenham Common Royal Air Force station now that the United States Air Force has announced that the B47 bombers are returning to their Texas base; and if he will give a renewed assurance that, Service requirements allowing, intensive operations will be limited to certain periods of the year and Sunday flying will be avoided in the interest of the people of Newbury and neighbourhood.
    Mr. H. Fraser: B47 aircraft will continue to be based at Greenham Common which is still required by the United States Air Force. As in the past, every
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    effort will be made to limit disturbance to local residents.
    Sir A. Hurd: Has my right hon. Friend not read the Press statement put out by the United States Air Force saying that these aircraft are going back to Texas and will be replaced by a number of some other aircraft—I do not remember what—which sounded more noisy and more powerful than those already there now? May I take it that the statement is incorrect?
    Mr. Fraser: The official announcement says that the number of B47s at Greenham Common has been reduced and that only one Strategic Air Command Bomber unit was involved. The Americans still require the station, which is vitally important to them. I hope that the disturbance to people in the neighbourhood will be kept to a minimum.
    Sir A. Hurd: May we have a clear statement from the Air Ministry on what is, in fact, happening?
    Mr. Fraser: I have just given a clear statement.

    Aircraft and Equipment (Expenditure)
    Mr. Mulleyasked the Secretary of State for Air what is the total sum spent upon aircraft and equipment since March, 1958; and what percentage of this total has been devoted to aircraft and equipment for Bomber Command, Fighter Command and Transport Command, respectively.
    Mr. H. Fraser: The total actual and estimated expenditure on aircraft and technical equipment from April, 1958, to March, 1963, is about £1,150 million of which 35 per cent. was for Bomber Command; 25 per cent. for Fighter Command; and 10 per cent. for Transport Command.
    Mr. Mulley: Does not this Answer indicate the error of Government policy, in that they have got their priorities completely wrong, that they have spent only 10 per cent. of the money on aircraft for Transport Command which has a vital rôle to fulfil and 35 per cent. on Bomber Command whose future, to say the least, is very doubtful?
    Mr. Fraser: I disagree entirely with the hon. Gentleman. I could not disagree more. For example, Bomber Command includes forces which are not part of the deterrent, such as the Valiants assigned to S.A.C.E.U.R. the tanker force. photographic reconnaissance squadrons and so forth, and, as he knows, we are proposing in the next few years to spend a very large sum of money on Transport Command.

    Aircraft (O.R. 351)
    Mr. Mulleyasked the Secretary of State for Air if a decision has now been taken and orders placed for aircraft to fulfil O.R. 351.
    Mr. H. Fraser: I have nothing to add to what my right hon. Friend the Minister of Aviation said on 25th February.
    Mr. Mulley: Is it not time that a decision was made and announced to the House? Is it not time that the Secretary of State took an interest in these matters on behalf of the Royal Air Force so that this time the Royal Air Force will get an aircraft that it deems to be the best and not one that the Minister of Civil Aviation or the Minister of Defence thinks is the one to buy for quite other reasons than the requirements of the Service?
    Mr. Fraser: I thank the hon. Gentleman for encouraging me to be more forceful in my job, but I assure him that we are getting the aircraft we want. The actual announcement, however, will not be made until next week.
    Mr. Eden: Can my right hon. Friend give us an assurance that the announcement will be made during the course of the defence debate or early next week? Why is the announcement not being made earlier?
    Mr. Fraser: As I have said in the White Paper, it is coming. The decision has been taken, but the details have still got to be worked out.
    Mr. Wigg: Will the right lion. Gentleman "come off it"? Is it not about time that the Minister of Aviation told the House of Commons what has been told to every aircraft manufacturer in the country? Is it not time that the House was told what the Government decision is?
    Mr. Fraser: I have told the hon. Gentleman that the decision has been taken. The details are being worked out and there will be a statement next week, I hope, by the Minister of Aviation.
    Mr. Gresham Cooke: Would it not be a good thing if the Minister would say that this specification should be taken up, in part, at any rate, in Belfast in place of the Beverley? This would give a lot of employment in an area where there is very high unemployment and would produce a first-class aircraft for Transport Command.
    Mr. Fraser: My interest is in getting the best possible aircraft.
    Mr. Wigg: Is it not a fact that Whitworth-Gloster at Coventry has got the contract and the Minister of Aviation has not got the "guts" to tell the House that himself?

  RAILWAYS

    Disused Lines
    Sir E. Erringtonasked the Minister of Transport whether he will exercise his powers under Section 27 (7) of the Transport Act, 1962, to obtain from the British Railway boards the mileage of disused lines in each region at the vesting date; and if he will make a statement.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry, of Transport (Vice-Admiral John Hughes Hallett): No, Sir. But if the hon. Member writes to the British Railways Board, it will give him such information as is available.
    Sir E. Errington: Does the hon. and gallant Gentleman say "No" because he considers this to be a day-to-day matter with which he will not deal, or because he thinks that it is not important enough for a special request to be made?
    Vice-Admiral Hughes Hallett: The normal practice in the past has been not to answer a Question seeking to obtain information from a nationalised board on matters of day-to-day administration, except when it raises matters of urgent public importance. I think my hon. Friend will agree that the information for which he has asked in this Question is hardly included in the category of urgency.
    Sir F. Markham: Is my hon. and gallant Friend aware that this is not a question of day-to-day administration? This is a question of specific information. The information ought to be given to the House and not in private correspondence.
    Mr. Popplewell: Will the hon. and gallant Gentleman look at this again? Surely this is not a question of day-to-day administration. This is a question of national importance. What is required is that the nation should be informed of the extent to which these closures have taken place. They are an accomplished fact, and surely there is nothing to be gained by the Ministry hiding the facts with this secrecy. Will the hon. and gallant Gentleman have another look at this point and publish the information necessary to enable us to reassess the transport situation and its development?
    Vice-Admiral Hughes Hallett: I will bear in mind what hon. Members have said. But I must point out that the question of how much of the railway network is not in regular use is a matter for the railway management.
    Sir E. Errington: On a point of order. In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I give notice that I shall seek to raise the matter on the Adjournment at the earliest possible opportunity.

  TRANSPORT

    Heavy Vehicles (Survey)
    Mr. Ridleyasked the Minister of Transport what was the average number of heavy vehicles at the last census travelling between London and South Wales, Birmingham and South Wales, and Birmingham and Bristol, respectively.
    Vice-Admiral Hughes Hallett: No recent figures of through traffic are available, but an origin and destination survey taken in 1957 showed that the number of heavy vehicles travelling between these areas each day was 373, 176 and 150 respectively. The actual numbers of heavy vehicles using these roads in August, 1961, lay between 1,300 and 2,300 per day, but, of course, this included local and short-distance traffic.
    Mr. Ridley: Do not these figures show that there is every bit as much need for a motorway between Birmingham and Bristol as there is for one between London and South Wales or London and Birmingham? Will my hon. Friend look at this matter again? Why is he holding up completion of the M.5? Will he, please, take a decision to bring it forward urgently?
    Vice-Admiral Hughes Hallett: As my hon. Friend knows, we have accepted the need to extend the M.5 southwards as soon as completion of the statutory processes, the availability of funds, and so forth, permit. A draft sdheme for this length of the M.5 which will bypass Tewkesbury and Gloucester will be published later this year.

    Road Accidents
    Mr. Hector Hughesasked the Minister of Transport if he will state the number of motor accidents on British roads during each of the last 10 years, indicating how many each year were due to excessive speed on ordinary roads, how many were due to excessive speeds on roads without a speed limit such as M.1 and North Anderson Drive, Aberdeen, and how many were due to repairs to or alterations in roads, respectively; and what steps he plans to take to obviate the dangers caused in these ways.
    Vice-Admiral Hughes Hallett: I regret that not all the information requested is available. I will, with permission, circulate those figures which are available in the OFFICIAL REPORT. They do show, for the years 1952–58, the number of personal injury road accidents, including bicycle accidents, in which excessive speed or the presence of road works were mentioned in the police report as a contributory factor; that is shown in the figures. From 1959 onwards there was a change in the accident reporting system and the only figures available are for the numbers of drivers and riders reported by the police in fatal and serious injury accidents as going too fast having regard to the conditions.
    These statistics are not available for different types of road.

    1247
    Speed limits are being reviewed continuously to ensure that they are realistic having regard to the nature of the road and the traffic using it. A 40 m.p.h. speed limit has been in force on North Anderson Drive, Aberdeen, since 1961. Every effort is made to minimise the dangers associated with road works.
    Mr. Hughes: Do not the figures which are known to the Minister of death and injury caused to countless people on the roads show that the elaborate regulations which the Department publishes are merely tinkering with a matter of life and death? Is not the proper way to deal with the problem for the Minister to issue a regulation providing that all motor cars should have a gadget fixed to them to prevent them from exceeding the speed limit?
    Vice-Admiral Hughes Hallett: I do not think that I can agree with the hon. and learned Gentleman. I do not for a moment underestimate the importance of excessive speed as a factor in road accidents. Neither do we view the present figures with complacency. But I would remind the hon. and learned Gentleman that in 1900 some 1,570 people were killed in traffic accidents by horse-drawn vehicles whose average speed, I suppose, was 8 m.p.h.
    Following are the figures:

    PERSONAL INJURY ROAD ACCIDENTS IN GREAT BRITAIN, 1952–58, IN WHICH EXCESSIVE SPEED OR THE PRESENCE OF ROAD WORKS WAS REPORTED BY THE POLICE AS A CONTRIBUTORY FACTOR

    Year

    Total number of fatal, serious and slight injury accidents

    Number of accidents in which the police reports mentioned as a contributory factor:—

    Excessive Speed having regard to conditions

    Road works in progress

    1952

    171,757

    7,548

    N.A.

    1953

    186,304

    6,969

    N.A.

    1954

    195,716

    8,299

    390

    1955

    216,681

    9,484

    295

    1956

    216,172

    10,291

    218

    1957

    218,653

    10,913

    207

    1958

    237,265

    11,500

    267

    N.A—Not available.

    NUMBERS OF RIDERS AND DRIVERS REPORTED BY THE POLICE IN FATAL AND SERIOUS ROAD ACCIDENTS AS GOING TOO FAST HAVING REGARD TO CONDITIONS

    Year

    Total number of fatal, and serious injury accidents

    Number of riders and drivers reported by police as going too fast having regard to conditions

    1959

    …

    74,484

    8,656

    1960

    …

    77,771

    8,532

    1961

    …

    77,423

    8,459

    Roads and Railways
    Mr. Ridleyasked the Minister of Transport what, in the financial year 1961-62, was the yield of all road taxation, the total spent on construction and maintenance of roads, and the loss incurred on the railways.
    Vice-Admiral Hughes Hallett: In 1961–62, total expenditure, by central and local Government, on roads in Great Britain was £222·9 million. Total receipts from motor vehicle licences and motor vehicle fuel tax were £544·8 million.
    The loss incurred on the railways on revenue account for the calendar year 1961 was £150·7 million. I regret that a figure for the Exchequer financial year is not available.
    Mr. Ridley: Do not the figures show that there is no doubt whatever that, whereas roads make a considerable profit for the Exchequer, the railways make a considerable loss, and does my hon. and gallant Friend agree that his right hon. Friend's policy in this connection in reducing the number of railways is absolutely justified?
    Vice-Admiral Hughes Hallett: I agree that my right hon. Friend's policy is justified, and I agree also with the proposition as my hon. Friend stated it, but I do not consider that the figures I have stated by themselves give any guidance as to the right level of expenditure on either form of transport.
    Mr. H. Hynd: Will the Minister remember that, while many places were inaccessible by road during the recent severe winter conditions, they were still accessible by railway?
    Vice-Admiral Hughes Hallett: Yes, we shall bear that in mind, although I am bound to add that the reverse was the case sometimes, too.
    Mr. F. Harris: In view of the appalling damage to the roads through the bad weather, is it Government policy to step up road maintenance in the future both for this reason and in order to provide employment?
    Vice-Admiral Hughes Hallett: That is another question. If my hon. Friend will put it down, we will see that he has an answer.

    Large Loads (Movement)
    Mr. Wingfield Digbyasked the Minister of Transport how many applications he received in January to move loads exceeding 14 ft. wide or 90 ft. long; in how many cases he gave permission; and in how many cases he varied the proposed day and time of travel.
    Vice-Admiral Hughes Hallett: During January, my right hon. Friend received II applications for the movement of the largest category of loads, that is, those over 20 ft. wide or over 90 ft. long; 3 were approved and 7 rejected. My right hon. Friend also received 185 applications to move loads between 14 ft. and 20 ft. wide; 165 were approved and 11 rejected.
    In no case did he vary the proposed day and time of travel; the power to do this is vested in the police.
    Mr. Digby: In view of the traffic congestion very frequently caused by these heavy loads, will the Parliamentary Secretary do all he can to encourage the police to vary the times so that such loads may be on the roads at times when there is the minimum of other traffic?
    Vice-Admiral Hughes Hallett: Yes, Sir. My information is that the police endeavour to do this.
    Mr. Awbery: Is the Minister aware that these huge loads are preceded through every city by a posse of police? The services of the police have to be paid for by the local authority and not by the people who are carrying the commodity. Will the Minister put upon those who are carrying the commodity the responsibility for paying for the posse of police in these circumstances?
    Vice-Admiral Hughes Hallett: The hon. Gentleman will recall that this particular matter was referred to and discussed in the House during the last Parliament on the Report of the Estimates Committee. The feeling of the House at that time was that it was best to leave the arrangements as they are.
    Mr. Prior: Will my hon. and gallant Friend bear in mind that these heavy loads and badly shaped loads are causing more and more inconvenience to other road users? Would it not be better to get many of them back on the railways, which would help the railways and cause people on the roads a good deal less inconvenience?
    Vice-Admiral Hughes Hallett: I entirely agree with the sentiments which my hon. Friend expresses. Normally, road movement is not approved in the following circumstances. We never approve it if the load is capable of being redesigned and broken down. We do not approve it if the journey is a long one and it is reasonable, both geographically and economically, to use rail or sea. We do not approve it if the load can safely be tilted and loaded vertically to reduce the space. However, as I am sure my hon. Friend appreciates, many of these big loads are far too big to go on the railways.
    Mr. Manuel: But does not the Parliamentary Secretary agree that, before he authorises these out-of-gauge loads to go by road, the senders should be advised to get in touch with the railways to find out whether such loads can be taken under the special precautions laid down where movements are conducted and one can have the full width of the loading space and carry lengths greater than that mentioned in the Question, thus avoiding damage to the roads and possible danger to other road users?
    Vice-Admiral Hughes Hallett: I assure the hon. Gentleman that those particular points are looked into by the Department very carefully when applications come in.

    Boards (Appointments)
    Mr. Shinwellasked the Minister of Transport if he will state the number of new appointments to boards under his control, which are full time and part

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    time, respectively what are the qualifications of those appointed and their emoluments.
    Vice-Admiral Hughes Hallett: As the Answer is rather long and detailed, I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mr. Shinwell: Will the hon. and gallant Gentleman include in the Answer in the OFFICIAL REPORT the number of people appointed either to part-time or full-time jobs who have been superannuated and retired from their previous occupations and have reached the ages of 65 and 70? Will he give at the same time the reasons for appointing these superannuated people?
    Vice-Admiral Hughes Hallett: As the right hon. Gentleman is aware, there are many people who think that people who have reached these ages are still in full possession of their faculties.
    Mr. Shinwell: Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that he is a Daniel come to judgment on that matter? Of course, there are superannuated people who retain their faculties, even in this assembly. What I am asking is how many people appointed to these important jobs at very high salaries have reached these ages.
    Vice-Admiral Hughes Hallett: I cannot answer the right hon. Gentleman's supplementary question offhand, but if he will table a Question we will answer it.
    Following is the Answer:
    My right hon. Friend has made 41 appointments to the four new Boards under the Transport Act, 1962. Of these 15 are full time and 26 part time.
    In addition he has approved 37 appointments, by the British Railways Board, to the six regional boards. Of these 14 are full time executives of the British Railways Board and 23 are part time members.
    All these appointments have been made from among persons with the qualifications prescribed in the Transport Act, 1962.
    My right hon. Friend gave the salaries of the members of the four Boards and the Holding Company in answer to a Question by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Arundel and Shoreham (Captain Kerby) on 13th February. The salaries payable to members of the regional railways hoards, apart from those who are full-time executives of the Railways Board and are paid as such, are:
    Chairmen £1,000, other members £500, a year.

    Dipped Headlights
    Mr. Shepherdasked the Minister of Transport if he will state the results of the experiments in persuading motorists to use dipped headlights in the less well-lit urban areas.
    Mr. Cleaverasked the Minister of Transport what action he will take in view of the success which has attended the dipped headlights experiment in Birmingham.
    Mr. David Jamesasked the Minister of Transport whether, in view of the success of local schemes, he will consider making the use of dipped headlights mandatory in all street-lit areas.
    Vice-Admiral Hughes Hallett: Dipped headlight experiments are being conducted in various parts of the country and will continue until the end of March. In Birmingham, there has been a welcome reduction in the number of road accidents this winter compared with last. It is, however, too early to say in what way and to what extent the experiment there has been a contributory factor. The results of this experiment will be fully studied by the Road Research Laboratory.
    Mr. Shepherd: Will my hon. and gallant Friend take some early steps to see how far he can encourage the use of dipped headlights in urban districts, and will he particularly look at the British Standards specification for the optical beam and consider the use of yellow headlights as well?
    Vice-Admiral Hughes Hallett: We shall certainly look at both those points.
    Mr. Cleaver: Is my hon. and gallant Friend aware that this voluntary experiment in Birmingham reduced accidents by 18½ per cent. and fatalities by 56 per cent.? If he wants further evidence of the success of this campaign, is he prepared to make this practice compulsory in the City of Birmingham and, if possible, over a wider area?
    Vice-Admiral Hughes Hallett: I have seen statements making the claims which my hon. Friend has repeated, but the view of the Road Research Laboratory is that they are premature until a much more careful analysis has been carried out. Therefore, they may be misleading.
    Mr. Strauss: Will the Parliamentary Secretary try to make it known as widely as possible that this is an important experiment which can lead to useful results and may help to prevent rude remarks such as those made by drivers when they pass a car with dipped headlights in a town.
    Vice-Admiral Hughes Hallett: I agree.
    Mr. Gower: Is not the trouble that the headlights of so many cars when dipped look as bright as when they are not dipped?
    Vice-Admiral Hughes Hallett: That may be so.
    Mr. Bowles: I think that in the United States some cars are made with lights which dip automatically on the car meeting another lamp or light. Has the Parliamentary Secretary heard of those experiments, and, if so. has he considered them?
    Vice-Admiral Hughes Hallett: I cannot say that I have heard of them, but I will certainly look into the matter.

  SHIPBUILDING

    Shipyards, Aberdeen
    Mr. Hector Hughesasked the Minister of Transport if he is aware that considerable unemployment is caused in Aberdeen shipyards by the fact that the largest shipyard there is limited to the building of a ship of about 500 ft. long or 18,000 tons dead weight, while tankers now required are at least 775 ft. long and 55,000 tons dead weight; and if he will take steps to subsidise the enlargement of Aberdeen shipyards to conform to modern requirements.
    Vice-Admiral Hughes Hallett: Any Aberdeen shipbuilder who has a scheme which is commercially sound and which would provide employment can apply to my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade for assistance under the Local Employment Act. 1960. But an assessment of the commercial prospects would be bound to take into account the fact that several British yards which can already build very large ships are short of work.
    Mr. Hughes: Does the Parliamentary Secretary realise that the scheme I am
    1254
    referring to has been dragging on for far too long and that the great natural advantages of Aberdeen could be much enhanced in the national interest, for the purpose of reducing unemployment and also for the purpose of attracting bigger and more modern ships to the Aberdeen shipyards, by the method suggested in the Question, namely, greatly improving the amenities of the harbour and the shipyards?
    Vice-Admiral Hughes Hallett: Thanks to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland, Aberdeen has not done too badly lately with ship orders. I do not think that, at the present time, the shipbuilding industry would be helped if additional capacity were to be created with Government aid for building large ships.
    Mr. Hughes: In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment at the earliest opportunity.

    Nuclear-powered Ship
    Mr. Albuasked the Minister of Transport whether, in view of the announcement by the Japanese Government of the decision to build a nuclear-powered survey ship, he will reconsider his decision not to proceed with the building of a nuclear-powered merchant ship in this country.
    Mr. Dalyellasked the Minister of Transport if, in view of the fact that Japan is now laying down a pioneer nuclear-powered surface vessel, he will make a statement on the development of such a British vessel.
    Vice-Admiral Hughes Hallett: I would refer the hon. Members to the Answer given to my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Harrow. East (Commander Courtney) on 13th February.
    Mr. Albu: Can the Parliamentary Secretary say what technical developments have taken place since the decision was last made not to proceed with such a ship and whether the stage has been reached when the ship can be considered so economical that the shipping and shipbuilding industries should be asked to contribute? In view of the highly experimental and even controversial nature of

    1255
    the project, has consideration been given to whether the Government should bear the whole cost?
    Vice-Admiral Hughes Hallett: We prefer first to hear what the ship owners and shipbuilders have in mind with a view to working out a suitable partnership with the Government. I think that the first part of the hon. Member's supplementary question was slightly loaded, because the decision which was made was that we would wait before proceeding until we felt we had a good chance of developing an economic ship. As soon as that moment was reached—judging from some quarters, some people think it was too soon—we made the decision and announced it.
    Mr. Dalyell: How does the hon. and gallant Gentleman reconcile his Answer to the hon. and gallant Member for Harrow, East (Commander Courtney) with the fact that the "Savannah" and "Lenin" have already been going for two years?
    Vice-Admiral Hughes Hallett: As has often been explained, it has never been suggested that the "Savannah" and the "Lenin" were either economical or could ever become economical. Where we differed from the other countries was that we decided not to go for a prestige ship but to concentrate our efforts and resources on trying to develop an economic reactor, and that we think has been achieved.
    Mr. P. Williams: Would not my hon. and gallant Friend agree that, prestige considerations aside, the great thing from the long-term point of view is to get a suitable partnership between the Government and the building and operating industries so as to get a practical commercial ship on the sea?
    Vice-Admiral Hughes Hallett: That is so. I entirely agree with my hon. Friend.
    Mr. Strauss: Can the Parliamentary Secretary say why this change of policy was first announced by the Prime Minister in his speech connected with the breakdown of the Brussels negotiations? Is he aware that authorities in the shipping and engineering industries feel strongly that there is a large element of political stunting behind this pronouncement and that this new declaration of policy was
    1256
    not justified by the known facts and was quite untimely? In view of the conflicting and strong critical views held by these authorities, will the Government consider issuing a White Paper or some other informative document stating exactly what the present position is and what the prospects are?
    Vice-Admiral Hughes Hallett: On the first part of the right hon. Gentleman's supplementary question, I would not accept for one minute that there was any political stunting here. The very brief reference made to the intention to go forward with the project, subject to all being well in the next six months with the final stages of the research work, was made in passing by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister in a part of his speech in which he was referring to various steps which Britain must take to keep herself up to date, and it fitted in very naturally indeed.
    I entirely disagree with what the right hon. Gentleman said in the second part of his supplementary question. I am quite satisfied that the moment has come when we must go forward, if possible. I understand the disappointment and even bitterness on the part of certain other interests which have been developing rival schemes which we do not consider are up to the same standard. I am not pretending for one moment that we can be certain that our present line of development will succeed and be economical. But we can be sure of one thing, and that is that if we wait until we are certain, we shall lose the race.
    Mr. Strauss: Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that the Atomic Energy Authority will not be ready until September even to decide which of three designs it is to judge the best? Was it not rather ridiculous and pointless—except for political purposes—for the Prime Minister to choose such a moment for an announcement that the Minister of Transport is to have discussions with the shipping industry about the building of a ship to incorporate a design which is still unknown?
    Vice-Admiral Hughes Hallett: The right hon. Gentleman has missed the point. The reason that it became necessary to make a public statement at about this time was that, if we are to be ready in

    1257
    September, we must complete the financial arrangements with the industries on the basis of which we shall go forward. From my experience—and I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman has had similar experience—of negotiations involving two industries and the Treasury, I do not think that we have allowed ourselves too much time.
    Mr. Bottomley: Does the hon. and gallant Gentleman recollect that on 2nd March, 1957, when he took part in the debate, we on this side of the House urged the Government to build a nuclear-powered ship? Why has it taken the Government six years to consider the matter?
    Vice-Admiral Hughes Hallett: I recollect the point of view expressed by many people. Indeed, I held it myself at one time. I am very glad that a very distinguished body of experts, appointed to advise the Government on this matter, warned them against taking that action, however, because had the Government taken it we should have diverted rare scientific talents to doing something which really would have been only a prestige stunt, like the "Savannah", and we should not have achieved our lead in the production of a really economic system.
    Mr. Dalyell: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In view of the irrelevant nature of the reply, I shall seek to raise this on the Adjournment at the first possible opportunity.
    Mr. Speaker: I should remind the House again that the formula of giving notice to raise a matter on the Adjournment includes the words, "in view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply". Any different form of words is liable to convert the notice into a speech.

  ROADS

    A.46 Road, Narborough
    Mr. Farrasked the Minister of Transport if he will arrange for the construction of a subway on the A.46 Leicester to Coventry road at Narborough, in place of the existing zebra crossing.
    Vice-Admiral Hughes Hallett: The use of the present crossing is small and expenditure on the provision of a subway
    1258
    would not be justified. We will consider the possibility of making this a panda crossing when the effectiveness of this type of crossing has been assessed in the light of the present experiments with it.
    Mr. Farr: Is my hon. and gallant Friend aware that the views he expresses are entirely contrary to those expressed by the Leicestershire County Council, the chief constable of Leicester and Rutland, the Narborough Parish Council and the chairman of the Narborough school board of governors? In view of that united expression of opinion on the need to put a subway or a bridge at this very dangerous spot, will my hon. and gallant Friend consider the matter again?
    Vice-Admiral Hughes Hallett: The fact remains that the average number of pedestrians using the crossing—which was watched the other day—is only 27 per hour, less than one person every two minutes. Furthermore, out of, I think, 29 accidents in this area since the beginning of 1959, only three are known to have had any direct relation with the crossing at all. We realise that the crossing is used largely by schoolchildren, and for this reason we have suggested to the parish council that it might introduce a school-crossing patrol.

    Parking Meters, London
    Mr. Shepherdasked the Minister of Transport if he has given consideration to permitting parking meter users in London the right to utilise residual time.
    Vice-Admiral Hughes Hallett: The parking meters in use in London are of a cumulative type, up to a maximum period, which is usually two hours. Users who buy less than the maximum get the benefit of any residual time. My right hon. Friend is considering whether motorists should be allowed to use residual time without payment.
    Mr. Shepherd: Is it not clear that it is economical to allow the residual time to be used by another motorist? Why should the time be paid for twice? Is it not a fact that those who use residual time would on many other occasions give residual time?
    Vice-Admiral Hughes Hallett: That may be so, but, as my hon. Friend will

    1259
    appreciate, the chance of using residual time free was made possible by the Road Traffic Act, 1960. The initiative lies with the local authorities. Not all of them have asked for what has come to be called "tag end" parking. With regard to London, we do not think that we can have different rules from one London borough to the next.
    Sir T. Moore: Will my hon. and gallant Friend ensure that the meter traffic wardens use their residual courtesy in carrying out their duties?
    Vice-Admiral Hughes Hallett: I very much hope they do.
    Mr. Woodburn: Is it not the case that every motorist must pay? He must pay for some time. If he gets the advantage of residual time. he is still paying and probably does not even use his own time let alone the residual time.
    Vice-Admiral Hughes Hallett: That may be so, but, as I have said. the initiative lies with the local authorities. Outside London a number of towns allow this "tag end" parking. On the other hand, to take a recent example, the City of Newcastle would have nothing to do with it.

  BALLOT FOR NOTICES OF MOTIONS
    Parliament and Members of Parliament
    Mr. C. Pannell: I beg to give notice that on Friday, 15th March, I shall call attention to Parliament and Members of Parliament, and move a Resolution.
    New Drugs (Testing and Clinical Trials)
    Mr. Marsh: I beg to give notice that on Friday. 15th March. I shall call attention to the need for stricter control of the testing and clinical trials of new drugs and for safeguarding the public against avoidable risks, and move a Resolution.
    School-leaving Age
    Mr. C. Johnson: I beg to give notice that on Friday, 15th March, I shall call attention to the need for raising the school-leaving age, and move a Resolution.

PUBLIC SERVICE VEHICLES (TRAVEL CONCESSIONS) ACT, 1955 (AMENDMENT)
3.34 p.m.
Mr. Edward Short: I beg to move,
That leave be given to bring in a Bill to make further provision with respect to the allowing of free travel or reduced fares on public service vehicles run by local authorities; and for purposes connected therewith.
For very many years a large number of local authorities possessing transport undertakings have granted travel concessions to a number of categories of people. The main categories are retirement pensioners, disabled persons, blind persons and children and young people attending Educational establishments. At the moment, approximately 90 local authority transport undertakings grant concessions in this way.
At the end of 1954, a Birmingham rate-payer, Mr. Prescott, challenged the Birmingham Corporation's scheme for free travel for retirement pensioners in the High Court. The case was heard in the Court of Chancery, and the Court decided that the Corporation had neither the power to authorise nor the power to sanction such schemes and that, therefore, the question whether or not the Corporation scheme was ultra vires or intra vires had to be decided on general principles.
The Court held that as the Corporation had the duty to hold a fair balance between all classes of ratepayers, and as its concession meant a free gift, in effect, to a certain category, it amounted to a differentiation between different classes of ratepayers and therefore was ultra vires. This decision was subsequently upheld by the Court of Appeal.
Because of this, in February, 1955, I introduced my Public Service Vehicles (Travel Concession) Act, 1955, which, in its original form, would have reversed the High Court decision and have given the local authorities the power which they assumed they had possessed before the Prescott case. It would have legalised these powers—or almost so, for I sought to limit the categories of grantees to four. The Government amended this proposal in Committee and Lord Avon, then Prime Minister, took a personal interest in the Measure. Indeed, it became the only Private Member's Act which the Government

1261
allowed to go through before the General Election in May, 1955.
In Committee, the Government amended the Act so that it did not, however, authorise the local authorities to use the powers they assumed they had before the Prescott decision. The Amendment meant that all that the Measure did was to legalise concessions existing on 30th November, 1954, the date of the High Court decision, so that the pattern of concessionary fares throughout the country was frozen as of that date.
My colleagues and I warned the Government then that although this would solve the problem for the moment it would create considerable and increasing difficulties as time went on. A whole tangle of anomalies and administrative difficulties began to make themselves apparent throughout the country very quickly. The result is that considerable hardship and a great sense of unfairness have been caused about the way the concessionary fares are working. Incomes, types of vehicles and routes have changed. The pattern of housing has also changed.
I want to quote a letter sent to my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Exchange (Mrs. Braddock) from a group of old-age pensioners in the Woolton area of Liverpool. It says:
"Dear Mrs, Braddock,
I am enclosing a Petition to ask you if you can do anything for us. We are all old-age pensioners here, and our passes have been taken off us, so we are not able to travel free on our bus No. 4, which is our only transport to use our passes. This has caused us considerable financial hardship as we have to travel on buses to church and the shops, and even for our pensions there is 4d. taken out in fares. We consider this action to be grossly unjust to pensioners who are on a fixed income and can least afford this imposition. I myself have been given this flat in this area without being forewarned that our passes would be withdrawn. Will you kindly help us to get our passes returned?…"
I imagine that most hon. Members who represent towns and cities throughout the country can quote similar letters. The chief anomalies are, first, that local authorities which were not granting concessions in November, 1954, cannot now introduce them, and, secondly, that local authorities which were granting concessions then cannot alter them in any way to apply to a different type of vehicles or to a different route or to a section of a route.
1262
For instance, a local authority cannot introduce concessionary fares on new roads to new estates, and in some cases the definition of a grantee in 1954 included an income figure. But, of course, incomes have changed since then. Yet the local authorities cannot amend these figures to take account of the changes in income. In some places, the schemes specify the days of the week and the hours of the day in which concessionary fares can be used. Social habits have changed and local authorities cannot amend the days or hours in which the passes can be used. They cannot amend the classes of grantees, even in the list of qualified persons set out in the 1955 Act.
In some cases there is a definition of old-age pensioner in a local authority scheme, and that definition cannot be amended. For example, my own local authority's scheme's definition contains the words "resident within the borough" Many of these old people have been rehoused outside the boroughs, but because of this frozen definition the concession cannot be changed.
There is no power now to levy a rate for the estimated value of the concession. This provision was deleted by the Government when the 1955 Act was in Committee. Local authorities can make a contribution to another local authority for these concessions, but cannot make a contribution to a private operator. The development of our cities throughout the country and of our transport system have made the whole pattern of concessionary fares anomalous and ridiculous. The anomalies are now indefensible and should be cleared up without delay. I might mention, in passing, that both the T.U.C. and the Scottish T.U.C. have passed unanimous resolutions about this subject and have sent them to the Minister of Transport, but have had no more reply than a curt acknowledgment.
I apologise to the House for quoting my own local authority of Newcastle. It grants 19,600 old-age pensioners the right to travel on trolley buses for ld. during certain hours of the day, but as that concession did not apply to motor buses in 1954 it cannot now be extended to them. As I have said, the definition of old-age pensioner includes the words "resident within the borough", so it excludes all those old-age pensioners who have been

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moved out to the new estates outside the borough—as I know to my cost, because our new housing has left the older parts of the city which I represent and gone outside the perimeter to the constituencies of my hon. Friends. Many of our old people have gone outside the borough and now cannot have concessionary fares.
In Newcastle, we are beginning the central area redevelopment. This means considerable changes, with split levels, and so forth, and trolley buses will be an inappropriate means of transport in this new development, for they will be too inflexible. Newcastle Corporation has decided to change over from trolley to motor buses over a five-year period, which means that virtually all the concessionary fares will have to end.
During the Christmas Recess, the Minister of Transport laid the foundation stone for what, in effect, is the beginning of our central area redevelopment —a very large roundabout and underpass at the end of the Tyne Bridge, costing £1¼ million. Trolley buses will not be able to use this underpass, which means that one of the most important trolley bus routes, going from the far west end of the city, in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle-upon-Tyne, West (Mr. Popplewell), to the far east end of the city, will change to motor buses. All the retirement pensioners and blind and disabled people, and so on, living along that route will lose their concessionary fares in June of this year.
In 1960, Newcastle Corporation introduced a Private Bill which contained a concessionary travel Clause. That Clause was passed by a Select Committee of this House, but deleted by a Committee of the other place. I wish that I could take their Lordships who were concerned to see what a difference a few shillings can make to old-age pensioners and the difference which 4d. extra a week to collect their pensions makes to their tight budgets.
Local authorities have many discretionary powers in many activities. During the passing of the Local Government Act, 1958. the present Home Secretary, who was in charge of the Bill, said that he was in favour of an extension of discretionary powers to local authorities. I
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should have thought that as they have so many discretionary powers in other respects the Government could grant them discretionary powers in this.
The Bill would simply give them the powers which they thought and assumed they possessed until the Act of 1954, except that it would set a limit to the categories of people to whom concessions could be granted. It does not include local councillors. The argument which was often used when the Bill was going through in 1954, and subsequently when I tried to introduce another Bill, was that provision for old-age pensioners and the blind and the badly disabled, and so on. was a matter for the Government and not for local authorities and that they should have adequate incomes so that concessionary fares and concessionary coal and the other concessions would not be necessary.
I absolutely agree that they should have adequate incomes so that arrangements of this kind would not be necessary, but the community is obviously not yet ready to shoulder the burden of preventing the catastrophic drop which occurs when a person retires, or when blindness or a bad disablement occurs. Until the community is ready to shoulder that sort of burden, it would be humane and Christian to allow local authorities who wish to assist to do so.
The purpose of my proposed Bill is simply to enable them to do that and I hope that the House will give me leave to introduce it and that the Government will provide facilities for it to reach the Statute Book during this Session.
Question put and agreed to.
Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. Edward Short, Miss Alice Bacon. Mrs. Braddock, Mr. Percy Collick, Mrs. Alice Cullen, Mr. Charles A. Howell, Mr. James H. Hoy, Mr. A. J. Irvine, Mr. Ernest Popplewell, and Mr. W. R. Williams.

PUBLIC SERVICE VEHICLES (TRAVEL CONCESSIONS) ACT, 1955 (AMENDMENT)
  PUBLIC SERVICE VEHICLES (TRAVEL CONCESSIONS) ACT 1955 (AMENDMENT)
  Bill to make further provision with respect to the allowing of free travel or reduced fares on public service vehicles run by local authorities; and for purposes connected therewith, presented accordingly and read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Friday, 22nd March, and to be printed. [Bill 76.]
ORDERS OF THE DAY

  CHILDREN AND YOUNG PERSONS BILL [Lords]
  Order for Second Reading read.
  Mrs. Harriet Slater: On a point of order. I have refrained from raising this matter until after Questions, but is there any special reason, Mr. Speaker, why the sun should be kept out on the first day that we have been able to see it for some time?
  Mr. Speaker: If we may be allowed to cast a glow upon the hon. Lady, we must see how the House likes it.
  3.47 p.m.
  The Joint Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. C. M. Woodhouse): I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.
  Five days ago, I did not know that I should be speaking on this Bill today and I am both glad and sorry to find myself doing so. I am sorry because circumstances have deprived a much-respected colleague of the opportunity of speaking today, and doing it more worthily than I can, but glad because I have had the opportunity of enlarging my own experience at the Home Office, even if at an unnerving speed, in a subject in which every hon. Member is deeply interested.
  I am personally glad because I have in my own family, which was increased by one last night, a wide selection of children and young persons, young persons both doli capaces and doli incapaces, all of whom regard their parents as being in need of care and protection within the meaning of the principal Act and one of whom has the good fortune to be the godson of the noble Lord who so patiently and skilfully piloted the Bill through another place and whom I am happy to join as acting as godfather to the Bill.
  It is a rather long but important Bill and it deals with a large number of separate topics, all of which are important in themselves and all of which have been very carefully and sympathetically drafted and scrutinised on their way to us. Although it covers a wide scope, I think that I can show that it is inspired by a single purpose and a single guiding
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  principle, which is that of improving the arrangements which fall within the responsibility of my right hon. Friend for the general welfare of all young people.
  The Bill follows a long line of such Measures which have been brought to the Statute Book by different Governments down the years. It has received a wide welcome among those concerned both professionally and otherwise with the welfare of children, and it reaches us after what was, on the whole, a fairly calm passage in another place, though I agree that there was one point at which the winds of controversy did blow with bracing vigour; and I commend it, with its increased merits, to the House.
  Parts I and III of the Bill are based mainly on the recommendations of Lord Ingleby's Committee on Children and Young Persons, and I know that my right hon. Friend would like me to say at the start how grateful we are to Lord Ingleby and his colleagues for the work which they put into the preparation of their Report. We hope that they will find it some reward that so many of their recommendations have either already reached the Statute Book in the Criminal Justice Act, 1961, or are embodied in the Bill.
  For most of Part II of the Bill we are indebted to another Committee, under the chairmanship of Sir Dingwall Bateson, concerned with the employment of children as film actors or in theatrical work and in ballet. Its recommendations have had to wait some time, but it is not a disadvantage because at the Home Office we have been able to carry out fuller consultations than usual with those who would be concerned with the administration of the scheme put forward in the Bill, and, moreover, there is now a good deal more experience on which to base decisions than a few years ago—for instance, as a result of the great development of television.
  One last general point I should like to make on the Bill is that Part II and most of Part III apply to Scotland, and Part I, with one extremely minute exception, does not. The reasons for that are briefly that in Scotland my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has a standing advisory body, the Scottish Advisory Council on Child Care, a committee of which has been considering

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  questions about the powers and duties of local authorities in Scotland to promote the welfare of children—in other words, the sort of questions with which Clause 1 of the Bill is concerned. Its report has recently been submitted and it will be shortly published. Its main recommendations are on much the same lines as those of the Ingleby Committee, and my right hon. Friend has asked the local authorities' associations to let him have their views on them as a matter of urgency.
  As regards the remainder of Part I of the Bill, we cannot at present foresee the possibility of comparable Scottish legislation, because there is a Departmental Committee under the chairmanship of Lord Kilbrandon which is considering questions concerned with the law of Scotland relating to the treatment of juvenile delinquents and kindred matters, and I understand that it will be some little time before that report is received.
  Before picking out the details from the very wide miscellany of the Bill, I think that it would be helpful to the House if I gave, by way of background, a few figures against which the Bill will have to be seen. Last year the estimated child population of this country between the ages of 8 and 17 was 6·2 million; that is an increase of 7 per cent. over 1938. Of those 6·2 million children, 64,284 were found guilty of indictable offences, and that is over 120 per cent. more than in 1938. The number of delinquents in every 100,000 children aged 14 and under 17 was twice as high for boys and three times as high for girls as it was in 1938.
  Since the passing of the Children Act, 1948, the number of children in the care of a local authority is estimated to be fairly constant at about 60,000, and of those 60,000 between a quarter and one-third have been committed to care either for offences or as being in need of care or protection or beyond parental control. I think that these figures give a measure of the problem which faces the courts and local authorities and voluntary associations and the various services concerned with the welfare of the young.
  Now I should like to say a word about the supporting services upon whose efficiency many of the changes brought
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  about by the Bill will depend. They will depend, in particular, on the child care service, the approved school service, and the probation service. My right hon. Friend is, of course, anxious that those services should be sufficient for their job both in training and in numbers, and he is doing everything that lies in his power to improve recruitment and expand their training facilities.
  Up to 1960 the annual number of students to qualify as child care officers was about 60. Since then the Home Office Central Training Council has been conducting a vigorous campaign to expand the proportion, and the expected output has been brought to 170 this year; in other words, nearly three times as much as in 1960. The new courses include courses for those intending to work in approved schools, and the Council intends to provide further training facilities for approved school staff as soon as possible.
  I am aware that many of these students have been waiting news of an increase in the rate of maintenance grants, and I am glad to be able to say that these rates are to be increased. Child care officer students will be paid on the basis of the rates which local education authorities pay to students taking degree courses under regulations made by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Education. The amounts to be paid will have to be worked out to take account of some differences in circumstances. For instance, as a general rule a child care student is in training for a longer period during the year than a degree student spends at university, but my right hon. Friend will arrange for payment at the increased rates to be made as soon as possible.
  Turning to the probation service, some of the most important recommendations of the Morison Committee related to its expansion. The service now numbers over 1,900 officers—that is an increase of 150 since the end of 1961; but it is, of course, essential that there should be a further substantial increase during the next few years if probation officers are to play their full part in the treatment of offenders of all ages, especially young offenders.
  My right hon. Friend, naturally, has been very glad to be able to settle recently the difficulties which caused so

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  much concern to the Government as well as the probation authorities and the probation officers. The negotiated pay settlement, which has been implemented by Rules, gave an increase of 21 per cent. on 1st January last, to be followed by two further increases which will bring probation officers' salaries at 1st December, 1964, to the level recommended by the Morison Committee. We find it encouraging that since its Report was published, last March, more men and women have steadily been coming forward for training in probation work, and we hope that now that the salary question is settled a still higher level of recruitment will be established and will be maintained. This Should be helped by the new rates of maintenance grants to students, of which I have already spoken.
  Sir Harmar Nicholls: These recruits, are they people who transfer from other professions or from business, or are they being recruited directly from university students? What sort of new recruits are they that my hon. Friend is hoping to attract?
  Mr. Woodhouse: They are all comers. I could not break them down into categories—at least, not without notice. They are of all kinds.
  Sir Harmar Nicholls: But we are hoping to make these services, the child care and probation services, more attractive, and at least as equally attractive as other similar professions, and I am wondering where these recruits are coming from, whether they are coming from other professions, or are coming straight from the universities.
  Mr. Woodhouse: Whether the rates will have that effect, I cannot say. As to current figures, I should need notice to be able to give a breakdown of the sources from which people come.
  Sir Harmar Nicholls: I give my hon. Friend due notice.
  Mr. Woodhouse: I am obliged.
  With that background, I turn to Clause 1, which results from the recommendations in the second chapter of the Ingleby Report. Under the Children Act, 1948, the local authorities have a duty to receive into their care any child in their area who
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  is without parents, has been abandoned by his parents or whose parents are unfit or unable to take care of him. Having received a child into its care, however, the local authority is under a duty to return the child to his home, if he has one, as soon as the home is fit to receive him again. Everyone would agree that it is best for the child to be brought up whenever possible in a home of its own. It is, therefore, very much in the interests of the local authority by giving advice or material assistance or by "family case work", to improve the conditions in the home sufficiently to enable the child to return there.
  The same sort of considerations apply where the child has been committed by a court to the care of the local authority. The sooner the court order can be revoked and the child returned to its home, the better for the child.
  Where a child is in the care of the local authority under Section 1 of the 1948 Act, there is little doubt that the Act already gives the local authority power to offer this kind of help to the child's parents. Clause 1 of the Bill removes any lingering doubt which may exist on that point, but it also goes a stage further. If it is good to return a child quickly to his home, it is obviously better still if he need never be received into the local authority's care at all. Here, however, there is a grave doubt about the extent of the powers of local authorities. Some authorities already employ social workers to prevent children having to be taken into care and others do not do so merely because they fear that they would be exceeding their statutory powers if they did.
  Clause 1 gives the local authorities, not merely power, but a clear duty to make available such advice, guidance and assistance as may promote the welfare of children by preventing the need arising for them to have to be received or taken into care. This will enable local authorities to take an important step forward. They need not—indeed, they should not—wait until disaster has overtaken a family, until there is nothing virtually for it but to take a child into care. They will now be able to help while the family's problems are still manageable, given skilled advice and help, and before the breaking point comes.

  1271
  That help could take several different forms. It could be intensive social case work. It could be a matter of providing practical help to a mother who cannot cope with the burden of a large family. It could be paying off arrears of rent so that the children do not have to come into care because of eviction. It could be a matter of lending household equipment to a family which simply does not have adequate equipment or it could be a matter of advising responsible parents who feel that a teenage daughter is getting beyond their control.
  We hope, too, that some local authorities will set up family advice centres to provide what the Ingleby Committee called "a door on which to knock" for people who want help with their family problems but find it difficult to know exactly where to go among the existing social services.
  In all those situations, the single object is quite simple. It is to enable a family eventually to be able to stand again on its own feet. I am glad that the Clause has received a warm welcome from the local authorities who will have to implement it. Some of them are already doing preventive work under the existing limited powers. The extension will, I am sure, commend itself to the House.
  Before leaving the Clause, however, I should like to draw particular attention to three of its features. First, the local authorities' help is only to be available. There is no question of compelling anyone to accept it. Secondly, the duty to make help available is placed squarely on the local authority, but in carrying out that duty the local authority is to be free to seek assistance from the various voluntary organisations, some of whom already have valuable experience in preventive work. This feature of the Clause has been brought out more clearly in Amendments that have been written into it in another place. I commend hon. Members to compare the original draft of the Clause with the wording as it now stands.
  Thirdly, the provision made in the Bill differs in two respects from the Ingleby Committee recommendations. In the first place, it does not require local authorities to submit schemes to the Secretary of State for approval, but under subsection (4) of the Clause the Secre-
  1272
  tary of State must be given such reports on the work as he may call for. We believe that this will be enough to achieve what the Ingleby Committee had in mind.
  The second difference is that the new powers are to be exercised through the children's committee of the local authority and not vested in the local authority at large. The reason for this is because the new responsibilities as we see them are an extension of the existing powers and duties already laid upon children's committees of local authorities and would be best grouped with them.
  I do not intend to take the House through the Bill Clause by Clause, but the first Clause happens to be among the most important. Clause 2 also gives effect to a recommendation of the Ingleby Committee. Under the principal Act, a child found by a court to be in need of care or protection may be dealt with in various ways. For example, he may be sent to an approved school or committed to the care of the local authority. Clause 2 substitutes a new and somewhat wider definition for the present one, but I should like to make clear, because it will be relevant also to Clause 16, that this is not the particular extension recommended by the Ingleby Committee as part of its scheme for raising the age of responsibility, which we have not accepted.
  It is always difficult to know how far to go in authorising the public authorities to intervene between a parent and child. That is especially true when there is power to remove a child from his own home. On the whole, we believe that Clause 2 strikes the balance about right although I know that some people may consider the new definition too wide while others would prefer to see it widened. We shall be interested to hear what the House has to say on this subject.
  Clause 3, which is linked with Clause 2, is another beneficent one. It removes a power that a parent now has to bring his child before court as being beyond parental control. These proceedings, if they are necessary, are to be brought by the local authority instead. In this way, we escape the main objection to the present system which lies in the parent's rejection of his own child, at least in appearance.

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  I will jump a number of Clauses and turn to Clause 16, which deals with the age of criminal responsibility. Hon. Members who have followed the Bill through its earlier stages will be aware that this Clause did not appear in the Bill as orginally introduced, so I would like to give some of the background to it.
  Children may begin almost as soon as they can walk to do things which, if done by their elders, would be criminal acts, but in every civilised country they are excused the full consequences of this in a number of ways. In England and Wales the law has four revelant provisions. First, no child under the age of 8 years can be capable of any offence. Secondly, a child between 8 and 14 years is presumed to be doli incapax—that is, not to know the difference between right and wrong—and so cannot be found guilty of his offence unless the presumption is rebutted by evidence of "a mischievous discretion". This rule is called malatia supplet detatem. Thirdly, it provides that young offenders shall come before specially constituted courts which will have power to dispense special methods of treatment. Fourthly, it provides that each of the more rigorous forms of punishment—imprisonment, borstal or detention in a detention centre—may not be imposed on children below a specified age in each case.
  Thus, in the sense in which the term "age of criminal responsibility" is used to describe the situation in various foreign countries, its level here could probably be put at about 17 years. I do not, however, think that comparisons with the situation in foreign countries are relevant or necessarily helpful. Clause 16, in fact, deals only with the first element in the complex that I have just described, that is to say, the age below which it is conclusively presumed that a child cannot be guilty of an offence. The crucial question is: should that age be 8 or higher? The Ingleby Committee recommended an increase to 12, or even to 14, but it linked that recommendation to other recommendations intended, in the Committee's own words, "to ensure that the result would have no element of letting off."
  At first, taking account of all the other elements to which I have referred and the rising figures of juvenile delinquency, the Government were disposed to think that there should be no change, at least for the present. My right hon. Friend's pre-
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  decessor announced that decision in answer to a Question in November, 1961, but it became plain during the debates in another place that there was a widespread feeling that the age should be raised, and the Government, on reflection, decided that it would be right to meet that desire.
  The presumption that a child below, say, 12 years of age could not be guilty of an offence would be only a legal fiction and a fiction which would be obviously more at variance with the facts than the present assumption. Children between 8 and 12 years of age would inevitably, I am afraid, go on doing wrong things. They would even do them knowing that they were wrong, such as taking other people's property or breaking their windows. They would have to be effectively dealt with in some way both in their own interests and other people's interests. But how? Here, we found widely differing views among those who favoured this change.
  The first view propounded by Lord Ingleby and his Committee is, in effect, that the situation should be dealt with by a court, but by non-criminal procedure. The child should be brought before the court as being in need of "protection and discipline" on the ground that he had acted in a manner which would render a person over that age liable to be found guilty of an offence. The doli incapax rule would disappear on the Ingleby Committee's recommendation. The proceedings would be civil proceedings and the child's act would not have to be proved beyond reasonable doubt, and where criminal intention is an essential ingredient of the offence, as in larceny, it would not be necessary to prove that intention beyond reasonable doubt.
  Several advantages were claimed for this scheme by the Ingleby Committee. First, it would enable young offenders under 12 to escape the stigma of criminal proceedings. Secondly, it would reduce both the reluctance to bring a child before a court and the difficulty of establishing grounds on which the court would be empowered to act, so it would bring within the reach of the social services many young minor offenders who at present develop delinquent habits before a juvenile court has any opportunity of bringing remedial measures to bear.
  Once the necessary facts have been proved by the easier means essential

  1275
  to this concept, the court would be armed with the same sort of powers as those which they can exercise at present after a finding of guilt, and would include powers which the Ingleby Committee recognised to be punitive, for instance, to commit to a remand home for a month's detention or to ensure attendance at a detention centre, and, finally, the parents could be ordered to pay compensation and costs.
  The court would also have the same powers for cases of the kind now called "in need of care or protection", but to avoid stigmatising them as wrongdoers, distinction would be avoided, as far as possible, between those coming to the court under the one heading and those under the other. This is the Ingleby Committee's scheme and it is at first sight undeniably attractive. We have given it a great deal of thought, but the Government have not found it possible to accept it for reasons which I shall explain.
  We cannot believe that it would be right to accept a scheme which, from the point of view of the child and the child's parents, has all the effects of a finding of guilt except in name, but, at the same time, deprives him of the present safeguards against his being found guilty of a criminal offence without full and formal proof beyond reasonable doubt of all the necessary ingredients in the offence. In fact, the very feature of the scheme which commended it to the Ingleby Committee, the greater ease of establishing what has to be established without technical formality, appears to us to be a fatal defect.
  We do not believe that either the child or his parents will think of the consequences of a finding as being other than, partly at any rate, punishment for an offence. However excellent the intention of the court, and however desirable in the child's interests the consequences may be, we consider that if either the child or the parents consider the proceedings which establishes his eligibility for that treatment have been less than fair, the treatment itself is unlikely to succeed. As was very cogently pointed out in the Fabian Society pamphlet on this subject, children may not understand legal proceedings, but they have a strong sense of justice and fair play.
  Mr. James MacColl: There are two Fabian pamphlets on the Ingleby Committee's Report. Would the hon. Gentleman say to which he is referring?
  Mr. Woodhouse: The one containing three critical essays. I am referring to the December one.
  The other school of thought which favours the raising of the age of criminal responsibility to 12 does not want delinquent children under that age to be brought before the courts at all. Those who support that point of view are confident that delinquents can and will be dealt with by the social services without the intervention of the courts.
  To try to examine to what extent this view is justified, I must offer to the House a few more figures. There are at present about 18,000 children under 12 who are found guilty of offences each year. Of these, about 13,400 are aged 10 or 11 and 4,700 are aged 8 or 9. Of the 13,000-plus between 10 and 12 who were found guilty in 1961, 700 were either sent to approved schools or made subject to a fit person order. In other words, they were taken away from their homes. Three thousand five hundred were put under the care of probation officers.
  I think that we can assume that if these children could have been dealt with by other means they would not have been charged. Yet it is clear that some 4,000 of them were found by the courts, after all their useful careful inquiries in every relevant direction, to be in need of either removal from home or the supervision of a probation officer. In other words, they needed help, which they apparently could not be given except by the intervention of the courts.
  The question is: what else could be done with them? The social services and the schools can, must, and do play an important part in checking delinquency and keeping children out of trouble. But we think that it would be unrealistic to expect them to cope without the backing of the courts with the 13,000 aged between 10 and 12 who are not at present responding to such remedial measures. We also think, however, that it is possible to distinguish between those of 11 and 12 and those of between 8 and 10 years old.
  They are, as I have said, much fewer in number and their delinquency is of a

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  less serious kind. They are more open to the influence of the social services and the schools, and we have come to the conclusion, therefore, that the age below which a child is deemed to be incapable of offence can safely and reasonably be raised to ten, and that is what subsection (1) of Clause 16 will do.
  Mr. Edward Gardner: It appears from subsection (1) that the age of 8 is to be raised to 10, and the effect will be that after the age of 8 the doli incapax rule will apply absolutely. From the age of 10 to 14, is the presumptive application of the rule still to be applied, and will the prosecution still have to prove that a child between 10 and 14 is capable of knowing the difference between right and wrong, as now applies, between the ages of 8 and 14?
  Mr. Woodhouse: Yes, that is precisely so. The doli incapax rule will apply between the ages of 10 and 14, but will be rebuttable. Below the age of 10 it will be unrebuttable. I hope that takes care of the hon. and learned Gentleman's point.
  I think that I made a small slip about the ages when I referred to children of 11 and 12. I meant 10 and 11, on the assumption that the age of criminal responsibility is itself the twelfth birthday, but I think that that was fairly clear to the House.
  I have one thing to say on subsection (2). This will, at the same time, ensure that childish misdemeanours are not quoted against a person in later life, and when all these provisions have had a fair trial we think it may be time enough to consider whether any other change needs to be made, with which I hope the House will agree.
  Turning to the later Clauses of Part I, I wish to mention only three, all of which I feel confident will be welcomed by the House. Clause 27, based on a recommendation of the Magistrates' Association, aims to save a young child who is either the victim or witness of a sexual offence from the strain of giving oral evidence both in the committal proceedings and at the trial whenever this is possible without prejudice to the ends of justice. I think the House will see how this is expressed in the clause.
  Clause 28 deals with the form of oath to be used by children. The Ingleby
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  Committee received evidence that young children have difficulty in understanding the oath commonly administered, and the Committee was advised that a simpler form of oath "would be more meaningful to children and could, therefore, he more reliably acted on." The Committee accordingly recommended that the oath for children should read:
  "I promise before Almighty God to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth."
  Clause 28 consequently amends the Oaths Act of 1909 to enable this form of oath to be used for all witnesses, including adults, in juvenile courts, and by children and young persons giving evidence in other courts.
  Lastly, on this part of the Bill I mention Clause 30, which deals with the penalties for offences of cruelty under Section 1 of the principal Act. The maximum penalties are, at present, on conviction on indictment, a fine of £100 or two years' imprisonment, or both, and on summary conviction a fine of £25 or six months' imprisonment, or both, and it is often said that they are inadequate.
  As regards the more serious offences, it has to be remembered that charges can also be brought under the other statutes, for instance, the Offences against the Person Act, 1861, or the Sexual Offences Act, 1956, and under these statutes very severe penalties, up to imprisonment for life, can be imposed. Taking these into account, the Ingleby Committee came to the conclusion that the maximum penalties laid down by Section 1 of the principal Act were adequate except for the fine on summary conviction, which it proposed to increase to £100, and this we have followed.
  I come now to Part II of the Bill, which deals with the employment of children. For a long time the law has protected children by placing various restrictions on the age at which, the hours for which, and the kind of work on which, they can be employed. This is both for the benefit of the child, for his health and upbringing, education and leisure, and to prevent his exploitation as a cheap substitute for adult labour.
  Clauses 32 to 34 make small but useful improvements to the law relating to the employment of children in general. The main provisions in Part II are concerned

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  with children in entertainment, and these result from the Bateson Committee's Report. In this country, as in many others, children employed in entertainment are exempted from the general restriction on employment, but safeguarded by a separate scheme which dates substantially from the Education Act, 1918, which has been amended from time to time.
  The present scheme is to be found in Section 22 of the Children and Young Persons Act, 1933, and Section 32 of the Children and Young Persons (Scotland) Act, 1937. It provides that a child under school-leaving age cannot, in general, take part in any entertainment for which a charge is made to any of the audience except under a licence granted by the local education authority. A licence cannot be granted for a child under 12, or under 13 in Scotland can it authorise employment on Sunday.
  These provisions are now out of date in a number of respects, and they suffer from a number of defects, of which I shall mention three. First, the scheme does not provide for the employment of children as film actors. This is an historical accident, and, therefore, this is subject to the law relating to the employment of children in general. This means that it is illegal to employ a child under 13 as a film actor. It also means that a child over 13 can be employed as a film actor without a licence, although he would need a licence to be employed on the stage in a theatre.
  Secondly, the B.B.C. and Independent Television are not treated equally under the law as it stands. A child of 12 or over may take part in sound or television broadcasts by the B.B.C. so long as the public are not admitted to the performance on payment, but there is no similar exemption for the independent television companies who cannot legally employ a child under 13 or any child at all on Sundays.
  Thirdly, the present minimum age of 12 means that a child below that age cannot be licensed to take part in a play, even if the appearance of a younger child is essential for the artistic presentation of the part.
  The new scheme is to be found chiefly in Clauses 35 and 36 of the Bill. We
  1280
  have not accepted certain of the Bateson Committee's recommendations, notably the one that there should be a central licensing authority, as well as a local licensing authority, but, in general, we have accepted the Committee's views. Between 1951 and 1956 they were discussed in full consultation with the interested organisations, film and theatre interests, the B.B.C., the I.T.A., trades unions and local authorities. The scheme now put forward in the Bill seems then to have been substantially acceptable. I am sorry that it has had to wait a long time for legislation, but I hope that the passage of time has not eroded the agreement which was then reached.
  Broadly, the changes in the Bill in this context are three: first, the age up to which a child needs a licence is raised to 16 immediately, and later when the school-leaving ago goes up, to that age. Secondly, a child who takes part in a film or broadcast will in future need a licence, and the present exemption of the B.B.C. disappears. Thirdly, in place of the present fixed minimum age at which a child may be licensed, Clause 36 has the effect that there will be no minimum age in the special cases described rather elaborately in subsection (1) of the Clause, but for all other performances the minimum age will be raised to 13 and then to 14 when the school-leaving age is raised.
  Many of the more detailed provisions of the new scheme will be liable to regulations made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, which will be subject to the negative Resolution procedure.
  Sir James Duncan: What does "performance" mean? Many children go to the Highland Games in Scotland during their school holidays to perform in competition with one another to get prizes. Is that a performance?
  Mr. Woodhouse: I am aware that considerable complications are involved in the definition of "performance". Perhaps it will be possible to leave a fuller discussion of the matter to the Committee stage, as happened in another place, where noble Lords fairly let themselves go on the subject.
  Before any regulations are introduced by the Secretary of State there will be

  1281
  full consultation with the various bodies concerned. We hope that the end result will be a more coherent and workable scheme, free from the defects which the Bateson Committee found in the present provisions.
  Mr. George Jeger: Will the hon. Member devote a few words to explaining why a licence must be obtained for a child embarking on entertainment work below the age of 16, whereas the same child may embark upon any other kind of occupation as soon as he leaves school at the age of 15, without a licence?
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Sir William Anstruther-Gray): I hesitate to intervene between the hon. Member and the Minister, but speeches tend to become very long with interruptions, and there will be a Committee stage on the Bill. The Minister should be allowed to deal with the, broad principles only in his Second Reading speech.
  Mr. Woodhouse: I am grateful to you for your intervention, Mr. Deputy-Speaker. I hope that my right hon. Friend will be able to say something on this subject later in the debate.
  I want to mention only one Clause in Part III—Clause 43, which is concerned with research. The Secretary of State already has power, under Section 77 of the Criminal Justice Act, 1948, to incur expenditure on conducting research into the causes of delinquency, the treatment of offenders and matters connected therewith, and it is this power which has led to the creation of the Home Office Research Unit, and the contributions which the Home Office has made to the valuable research carried out in universities and elsewhere. We think that the time has come to extend this power. The Clause does that by enabling the Secretary of State and local authorities to conduct or assist others to conduct research into the matters of child care and the adoption of children.
  The Home Office is always ready to learn. I think that we have a great deal to learn under this and other heads, and that wise investment in research of this kind will enable those who come after us to do still more and still better for the unfortunate children who are in danger of missing a normal, happy home
  1282
  life, and whose interests I know the whole House has at heart. It is in that spirit that I commend the Bill to the House.
  4.32 p.m.
  Miss Alice Bacon: I am sure that we would all wish to congratulate the Joint Under-Secretary of State on the recent addition to his family. In speaking on the Bill I cannot claim the distinction that he has, because he says he is a parent. I do not know how many children he has—
  Mr. Woodhouse: Six.
  Miss Bacon: Six, is it? At any rate, I can claim that before I was a Member of the House I. dealt with hundreds of children in my capacity as a teacher, and learnt something of children of all ages and both sexes. This is a very important Bill, because it is about children who are unfortunate, or who are deprived, or neglected, or exploited, or children who themselves may he in some way inadequate, besides children who come before the courts. There are 12 million children under the age of 17—about a quarter of the population of England and Wales.
  It is worth remembering that the great proportion of these children are happy, well cared for and healthy, and never get into any trouble at all. But the small proportion who do get into trouble, or are in need of care and attention, constitute one of our greatest social problems. They are mostly the victims of conditions for which they themselves are not responsible. Sometimes they have inadequate parents; sometimes their parents are separated. They may be living in very bad housing conditions. And there is a new factor, in that many school leavers today are unemployed. That may also lead to juvenile delinquency. We also have children who suffer from a lack of understanding.
  As I have said, in some cases the children themselves are inadequate. They may be slightly mentally retarded or backward. Children sometimes get into trouble because they are too high-spirited, or because they cannot cope with the problems of growing up in a world which does not seem to make sense to them.

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  We welcome most of the provisions of the Bill. There is little with which we disagree. Our criticism of the Bill is that it is very vague in parts. It does not go far enough, and it certainly does not match up to the problems which we hope to solve. The Bill is based on two Reports. The second part is based upon the Report of the Bateson Committee on the Employment of Children as Film Actors, in Theatrical Work and in Ballet.
  This Committee reported in 1950. It has taken the Government about thirteen years to produce any legislation on its very valuable Report. Even so, it is not yet clear what we shall get in the way of regulations, which will be laid under the affirmative Resolution procedure and against which we must pray if we disagree with them in any way. That is all I wish to say about Part II. I know some of my hon. Friends will be speaking at greater length about it.
  The main part of the Bill is based on the Ingleby Report. That Committee reported in 1960, after four years of deliberation. Some of its recommendations were embodied in the Criminal Justice Act, with which we dealt two or three years ago. At that time we were critical of some parts of the Report. We thought—and we still do—that it contained a useful survey of the existing provisions for dealing with children and young people, besides a very few good recommendations, but that, on the whole, it was much too timid. I wish to quote only one of its recommendations to illustrate the way in which it attacked some of the problems before it.
  All hon. Members know that the managers of approved schools exercise over the children in their care all the rights of parents. Yet, on page 125 of the Report, paragraph 438 says:
  "We think it is desirable too that the instrument should make provision for an age at which managers should be required to retire—there is no such requirement at present. The time must come when a manager is no longer able effectively to carry out the duties which he has so willingly undertaken in the past. It is difficult to be dogmatic in this matter, but we think that it would be not unreasonable to require a manager to relinquish his appointment on reaching the age of seventy-five, and we recommend accordingly."
  That is not a very revolutionary proposal. I wonder whether many managers of approved schools are over that age. I
  1284
  give that as one illustration of the approach of the Ingleby Committee.
  The Committee does make a number of quite good recommendations. But if the Report was timid, the Bill is even more so, for some of the chief recommendations of the Ingleby Committee are completely ignored. Even so, the Bill is very much better than the original one which was introduced in another place.
  As the hon. Gentleman said, many Amendments were made in another place. But they were made entirely at the instigation of noble Lords on the Opposition benches. That these Amendments were immediately accepted by the Government as obvious improvements shows, I think, that there was a lack of thought in the preparation of the Bill. This is a long Bill and in a Second Reading speech it is impossible to deal with all the changes that it makes. There will be an opportunity during the Committee stage to do so.
  We welcome many of the smaller, but nevertheless important, changes, particularly the ending of the ability of parents to bring their children before the courts as being in need of care and protection. This public renunciation of their children by parents must have a tremendous effect on the children concerned which may remain with them for the rest of their lives. But sometimes it has been necessary for parents to adopt this course because it was the only way to obtain help from the authorities.
  We welcome the proposal that a finding of guilt against a child under 12 shall not be cited in a list of previous convictions over the age of 21. We welcome the proposal that children under 13 shall not be required to give oral evidence twice in respect of sexual offences. I hope that during our discussions on the Bill we shall consider whether 13 is the right age. As was pointed out in another place sometimes adolescents, teen-agers, find it much more difficult than younger people to give evidence of this kind in a court; but we shall return to all these matters and many others during the Committee stage.
  I now wish to deal with four or five of what I consider to be the more important and wider aspects of the subject, and among them are two or three

  1285
  which, I know, will prove controversial. Clause 1 may be considered as the heart of the Bill. Since prevention is always better than cure we welcome this attempt at prevention and we welcome the duty which is to be placed on local authorities to make provision to deal with problems in the homes of children when there is danger of them having to come into the care of local authorities or having to appear before the courts.
  I have grave doubts whether the present wording of the Clause is adequate to meet the intentions outlined by the Under-Secretary. The Clause was strengthened by Amendments moved in another place. As it first appeared it would have been possible for local authorities to farm out all their responsibilities to voluntary organisations. It is now reasonably clear that a local authority will be required to make some provision, and, although the voluntary aspect is important, voluntary bodies will augment the work of local authorities and not replace them.
  We feel that the drafting of the Clause reveals a lack of urgency. Subsection (4) says:
  "A local authority shall from time to time make to the Secretary of State such reports on the nature of the provisions made by them under this section as he may specify."
  If a local authority is required to report only from time to time, it means that laggard local authorities will get away with doing very little, and with doing even that in its own time. We maintain that a local authority should be required to prepare schemes and submit them to the Home Secretary within six months, and thereafter be required to give annual reports to the Home Secretary about how it is carrying out its work.
  There is a great need for the coordination of all our services, education, health and welfare, as was stressed in the Ingleby Committee's Report. Only by receiving schemes from the local authority in advance and sanctioning them can the Home Secretary be sure that adequate arrangements are made. The whole of Clause 1 needs redrafting in our opinion. I know that the Home Office has the services of good Parliamentary draftsmen. But I am sure that my hon. Friend the Member for Widnes (Mr. McColl) would be able to do even better, and produce a better Clause than the present one.
  1286
  I turn now to a controversial subject with which the Under-Secretary dealt, namely, the age of criminal responsibility. Before the Bill was published, and, indeed, until it went to another place, the age of criminal responsibility in this country was 8, which is a lower age than in most other countries. The attitude of the Government to this matter over the last few years has been absolutely extraordinary. They have been "stringing the House along". It is always to be dealt with in the next Bill and never in the one which is before the House.
  Three years ago we discussed a Measure relating to indecency with children and I moved an Amendment to the effect that for the purpose of that proposed legislation the age of 14 should be the age of criminal responsibility. Hon. Members who took part in our debate supported the Amendment. But the right hon. Gentleman who was then the Joint Under-Secretary, and who is now the Secretary for Technical Cooperation, resisted it on the ground that the Ingleby Committee would shortly report and would be dealing with the matter. I believe that the right hon. Gentleman acted in good faith. I do not charge him with bad faith.
  The Ingleby Committee was to make proposals relating not only to sexual offences, but to all other offences. The Committee reported and recommended that the age of criminal responsibility should be 12 and should eventually rise to 13 or 14. In 1960 and 1961 we debated the Bill which became the Criminal Justice Act and which gave effect to some of the recommendations of the Ingleby Committee. But there was nothing in it about the age of criminal responsibility. My hon. Friend the Member for Widnes moved a new Clause which would have raised the age to 12, but the then Attorney-General, who is now Lord Chancellor, resisted it on the grounds that there would have to be a new procedure for those under that age and that we should wait for another Bill.
  The right hon. and learned Gentleman said
  "That is not a proper subject for the Bill, and there is a lot to be said for leaving that question over for a later Bill which will go into the whole matter." [OFFICIAL REPORT, Standing Committee B, 21st February, 1961; c. 659.]

  1287
  He also said that there should be a careful survey of the whole field, in conjunction with consultations about an alternative procedure which would have to be adopted. That was two years ago. We have had the other Bill and I should like to know what thought and consultation has taken place over the last two years.
  When it first appeared this Bill contained nothing about the age of criminal responsibility. It was still left at 8, and had it not been for action in another place the age would not have been raised to 10. So it would appear that for the last two years, the Government having persuaded us to withdraw the Clause moved then by my hon. Friend, nothing has been done.
  I know that the former Home Secretary mentioned this in a reply to a Written Question In November, 1961. It was rather strange that the Written Question appeared on a Tuesday, a day when the right hon. Gentleman did not usually answer Questions and was tucked away without many hon. Members being aware that the reply had been given. Originally there was nothing in the Bill about that; no thought had been given to the matter during the last two years. So far as I know, no consultation had taken place.
  In another place and Amendment was carried to raise the age of criminal responsibility to 12. Then there was an immediate whip round of some of the backwoodsmen and the age was put back from 12 to 10. During the passing of this Bill we shall try at least to reinstate the age of 12. I do not think that I need labour this point this afternoon, because I think it abhorrent to most people that criminal charges can be brought against children of 8, 9, 10, or 11.
  I want to look at another aspect of this matter. I agree with what the Lord Chancellor said during passage of the Criminal Justice Bill, that there is a problem of how to treat those below the age of criminal responsibility who commit misdemeanours which, if they were committed by older people, would be offences. But, whereas he would avoid the problem and obviously the Government would avoid it because nothing was put in this Bill about it, I want to face it. I believe that the problem of how to treat
  1288
  young children below the age of criminal responsibility is perhaps even more important than the actual age of criminal responsibility.
  What do we mean by the age of criminal responsibility? I shall not go into all the Latin phrases which were quoted by the Under-Secretary. Most parents do not understand those and I am certain that children who come before the courts do not. As the Bill is at present it does not mean that a child below the age of criminal responsibility cannot be brought before a court. He can. What it means is that a child below the age of criminal responsibility cannot be brought before a court and charged with having committed a crime. A child can be brought before the court as being in need of care, protection and control.
  Take an example of what this means in practice. Suppose two boys take bicycles which do not belong to them. The one over the age of criminal responsibility can be brought before the court and charged with stealing a bicycle. The one below the age can be brought before the courts, before the same magistrates, as being in need of care, protection and control. At the end of the day they can be treated in almost exactly the same way. The boy who is in need of care, protection and control cannot be sent to an attendance centre, nor can he be fined, but he can be made subject to a supervision order, which can be very tough. They can both be sent to an approved school.
  I am sure that in the minds of the two children who have stolen those bicycles there will not appear to be very much difference at the end of the day. This House must not think that we have done a great deal merely by raising the age of criminal responsibility if, at the same time, we do not devise a more satisfactory method of dealing with those under that age, whatever age is fixed.
  I want to ensure not only that young children are not charged with having committed a crime—which is important—but that as far as possible we shall keep young children out of courts altogether. That is the important thing. It is not just the nature of the charge made in court; it is the appearance in court which can do so much damage to a young child. It is sometimes said that if a child appears in court that gives him or her a jolt, that it teaches him

  1289
  or her a lesson and that the child will never come to court again. Maybe that is true, but usually the opposite happens. The person coming before the court thinks of himself as a young criminal. Many children regard appearance in court not as something which they have to live down, but as something they have to live up to.
  So far as possible we must find a way to avoid having children taken to court. I wonder what the Under-Secretary, who told me that he has six children, would do if one of his children were to steal something. Perhaps that is something they would never do, but I think that all families at some time or other have to face the problem of a young child taking something which does not belong to it. I know what every hon. Gentleman and every hon. Lady in this House would do if one of their children took something which did not belong to it. They would do their best to keep the child out of the courts.
  The better-off children in our community have not reached the public schools at this tender age; they are still at prep. school. I do not believe there is any preparatory school in the country where the headmaster has not at some time or other had to face the problem of some children doing things they ought not to do and taking things which do not belong to them. What happens to those children? I never hear of them being brought before the courts. The matter is settled within the education system. Maybe the parents are called in for a talk with the head. We must devise an arrangement whereby parents can voluntarily accept provision for their children.
  We have schools for maladjusted children, we have child guidance clinics and special schools. I am sorry, as I know a great many of my hon. Friends and hon. Members opposite are sorry, that we did not get something more definite out of the Committee which dealt with training centres, but why can we not consider some other form of day training centre? Why can we not look at liaison schemes such as there are in some parts of the country? I know that there is an objection to some of those because they are run by the police, but why can we not devise some method of that kind?
  1290
  The Under-Secretary, in his opening speech—I hope that I took a note of it correctly—when he was talking about young children coming before the courts, said that if those children could have been dealt with in other ways it would not have been necessary to have brought them before the courts. It is our job not to accept that, but to devise some other way of dealing with those children. That is the whole point. I believe that many of them could be dealt with under our existing education and medical arrangements. If they cannot be dealt with in that way, it is up to us to devise machinery by which they can be dealt with.
  It may be that in Committee we shall have more definite proposals to offer. We could perhaps devise some system for bringing in parents and headmasters and asking parents to accept voluntary provision for their children and to go to the court only in the very last resort if there cannot be some voluntary arrangement. This is a very important subject, but it is something which the Government have tossed on one side and not thought about in the last few years.
  I turn to another recommendation of the Ingleby Committee which has been omitted from the Bill. The Ingleby Committee said that in future only the police and local authorities should have power to bring children to court as being in need of care, protection and control. That would cut out the N.S.P.C.C., which now have this power. I pay tribute to the work of the N.S.P.C.C. There was no suggestion in the Ingleby Committee Report that other powers which the N.S.P.C.C. has of bringing parents to court for cruelty and neglect should be taken from that organisation. When the Ingleby Committee's Report was published, the N.S.P.C.C. did all it could behind the scenes to jettison this proposal. So great was the power which was exercised behind the scenes that this proposal does not now appear in the Bill. That means not only that the police and local authorities, but still the N.S.P.C.C., can take a child to court when that child is said to be in need of care, protection and control.
  I believe that the Ingleby Committee was right in this and that the Bill is wrong, because under the new provisions in

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  Clause 1 we are laying a duty on local authorities to take steps in the homes of children to try to prevent children from coming before the courts. I can foresee a situation in which, just as the local authority, with all its services, is dealing with a certain problem, the N.S.P.C.0 will take the child to court—just when the local authority is perhaps doing its best to keep the child out of court, and succeeding. There is the opposite situation in which the laggard local authorities, which perhaps do not want to do very much under the Bill, can sit back and leave some of these problems to the N.S.P.C.C.
  It is worth while noting that if the N.S.P.C.C. bring children to court, for them the problem is over; that is the end of it. But for others the problem is just beginning. This is not just a matter of the wounded pride of any organisation. We should judge it solely on what is good for the child. In many cases local authorities have had powers taken away from them in all sorts of fields, but they have accepted that as moving with the times and as being in the best interests of everybody. I believe that we ought to reconsider this position.
  Another problem, not specifically mentioned in the Bill, which worries me a great deal when thinking of provisions for children and young people is the way in which we deal with teen-age girls. The more I see of teen-age girls in institutions, particularly in approved schools, the more worried I am about our treatment of adolescent girls. This is quite a different problem from that of the teenage boy. This is shown quite clearly by looking at the pupils in our approved schools. In the boys' approved schools, 95 per cent. are there because they are offenders and only 5 per cent. because they are in need of care, protection and control. But only 36 per cent. of the girls are there because they are offenders and 64 per cent. are there because they are in need of care, protection and control. Almost all these, and, in fact, some of the girls who are offenders, are there because they have been in moral danger. They have been associating with men. They have been out late at night or all night. Their parents cannot cope with the situation.
  1292
  This is not a criminal problem at all. It is quite a different problem from the rest of the problems with which we are dealing; it is a psychological and medical problem and should be dealt with in that way. Even parents in good homes, who exercise very great care indeed, know the difficulties which arise with teen-age girls. I often wonder whether an approved school is the best way of dealing with these girls.
  I recall visiting two approved schools in the same week within the last year or two. Both in their way were doing a good job within the school, and I am not criticising them. One was run by a religious voluntary organisation, and the girls in that school were all of a lower-than-average intelligence. They were quiet and docile—perhaps too quiet and too docile. Perhaps it was because they were lower-than-average intelligence that they had become in moral danger and had been sent to an approved school.
  The other approved school was quite different. It was run by a local committee for some of the most difficult girls we have in approved schools. Some of them were highly intelligent. About 50 or 60 of these girls were put together in the most explosive atmosphere. There was a good headmistress and a good staff, but the headmistress told me that there was not one of her staff who had not been attacked physically at some time by one or other of the girls.
  Having visited both these schools, I could not help wondering whether it was the right thing to put these girls together, away from the community perhaps for eighteen months, two years or three years. I feel instinctively that it is not, although I must admit that I do not know the answer. It is just that something has gone wrong with the problem of growing up. These difficulties of adolescence are quite separate problems from those of other delinquency. I believe that we should not take these girls out of the community if it is at all possible to keep them in.
  I hate to multiply the committees which the Home Secretary has sitting at present. Indeed, I sometimes criticise the fact that so many committees are sitting helping the Home Office, and that we then take no action on their reports. But I believe that here is something which ought to

  1293
  be studied by an expert committee of doctors, teachers, psychologists and social workers. I have brought the problem to the House and I admit frankly that I have not the answer, but I feel that an expert committee should deal with this matter and I hope that the Minister will turn his attention to it and see whether an expert study of it can be undertaken.
  May I comment on approved schools in general? We have a shortage of approved schools and remand homes, and we still have only one remand centre in the country—and even there the conditions are not particularly good. During the passing of the Criminal Justice Act through the House we spoke a great deal about the management of approved schools, and I do not take back one word of what I said on that occasion—that approved schools ought to be in the hands of properly elected bodies and not of self-appointed local committees. I still feel very strongly about this, but I have also been thinking about the whole system of approved schools.
  The good schools are very good, and there are some which are not so good. In content, they are supposed to be educational, and I admit that with smaller classes the children in the approved schools have more individual attention than perhaps in some of our State schools. But in the country they are thought of as penal institutions. They come under the jurisdiction of the Home Office. Having been to an approved school somehow puts a stigma for life on the girl or boy who has been there. I believe that we ought to be able to deal with children of school age through our ordinary educational facilities, and I think that at any rate we ought to lay it down that no child under 12 should be sent to an approved school in the beginning.
  I have said in education debates that it is geography which determines whether a child goes to a grammar school or to a secondary modern school; it depends on how many vacant places there are in a grammar school in a particular area. That sometimes happens with some of these institutions. Every magistrate knows that where a child goes after he leaves the court does not depend so much on the child as on the vacancies in the remand homes, remand centres or approved schools.
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  We had some comments to make during the passing of the Criminal Justice Act about the Children's Department of the Home Office. The Under-Secretary today commented on the children's committees. I believe that the children's committees throughout the country have done a magnificent job over the last few years. But one experienced person on a children's committee said to me recently that what they had done over the years had been in spite of, and perhaps not because of, the Children's Department. We have been told that there have been some changes in the Children's Department, and we hope that we shall soon have evidence that these changes have taken place.
  If we are to make progress in all these matters, it requires great efforts by all of us—by local authorities, by social workers, by teachers and in the home. As an ex-teacher I know that the influence of the school is not nearly as great as that of the home. Whatever the authorities do, and whatever machinery is set up, the most important people in the battle against child delinquency are the parents. Even the best parents are faced with situations with which they sometimes cannot cope. Our job is to see that the services are there when parents need them. For this, we shall need more trained social workers and we shall have to spend more money, but it will be better than spending more money on keeping children in institutions such as approved schools. In any case, it will be money well spent.
  I will end as I began. We are dealing with children today, and I hope that we shall not become too legalistic and talk too much in Latin legal terms which, as I have said, are neither understood by the parents nor by the children. We are dealing with children who are not responsible either for what they are or for the conditions under which they live. It is our responsibility, and in the Bill we can do something to show them that we are shouldering this responsibility and so take a constructive step forward in dealing with what I believe is one of our greatest social problems.
  5.11 p.m.
  Sir Gerald Wills: I welcome the Bill and I congratulate my hon. Friend the Joint Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department on the manner in which he introduced it,

  1295
  in spite of the obvious anxieties which must have been in his mind a few hours ago. The Bill has come from another place and it has been improved, I think, by Amendments, from whichever side they came. I have no doubt that when it finally emerges from this House it will be even better than it is at present.
  I believe that the thinking and intention behind the Bill is absolutely right. In my contribution to the debate, which I propose to make fairly brief, I only wish to refer to that part of the Bill which is based upon the Ingleby Report. This does not in any way mean that I think the other parts of the Bill are not important. I think they are. I think it quite proper to bring up to date measures dealing with the performance by young children in the theatre, on television and in the cinema.
  I wish, first, to refer to Clause 1. This Clause, as we have already heard, extends the powers of local authorities, through their children's departments and children's committees, to bring children into care, to help to rehabilitate a family when it needs help and rehabilitation and to improve a family's living conditions—in short, to stop the development of conditions in a family and in a child's life which might lead to a child or children in a family becoming fruitful ground for delinquency and so for it to be necessary to put them into care or into some place away from their family. I think it is most important that we should do that, and that is why I think the terms of the Bill are so very important.
  The Bill not only confers these powers but it imposes a statutory duty on local authorities to use them. It imposes a duty on local authorities to make arrangements for advice, for discussion of problems, for financial help, if need be, and for much else. I am sure that this is good. But it must be made abundantly clear that although this duty is laid on local authorities many of the most valuable voluntary organisations are still just as important and just as necessary as they ever were. In fact, I am quite certain that many of the local authorities will find it necessary to use the voluntary organisations, the information at their disposal and the organisation which they have built up in the work now imposed upon them by the Bill.
  1296
  We must remember—and I am glad that it has already been mentioned—the great service which the Probation Service gives to the community, the work of other children's services and many other bodies which are working with great conscientiousness and devotion to help the children of the country. I hope that we shall make it worth their while to continue to do that because they give a very great service.
  I do not think that at first, at any rate, these new powers which the Bill gives to local authorities will be easy to work. They will have to be run in, so to speak. There will quite clearly have to be a considerable amount of consultation between the local authorities and my right hon. Friend, and a way of working the provisions of the Bill will have to result from these consultations. I have no doubt that many have been held already and I am sure that there will have to be still more.
  No one who is a Member of Parliament, and who has been one for very long, can fail to know from the letters which he receives and from the interviews which he holds in his "surgery" with constituents that the family circumstances which the Bill envisages really exist. All these things are happening, and the Bill can remedy them if used aright. We all realise, I am sure, how many circumstances in the life of a family can, if they are taken in time, be remedied. The essential thing is that the trouble should he dealt with early. We want to deal with the trouble before it develops into a state where it creates unhappiness in the family, which, in turn results in a child being brought within the ambit of the Bill.
  Many misfortunes, illnesses, temporary financial troubles and emotional upheavals happen in homes. If the Bill is implemented properly they can be caught at the source and so prevent many of the troubles which exist today. If family life is preserved and children are adequately cared for they do not get into the sort of trouble which the Bill in some part is meant to deal with, but if children are not properly cared for then very often they become difficult and in need of the "care, protection and control" which under the Bill has to be given to them. It is better to prevent trouble arising rather than wait till it conies. If we wait till the trouble arises

  1297
  then there is much greater responsibility and much more grief. There is a family upheaval and the children go into care or enter an appropriate home.
  I want, briefly, to refer to one or two other matters in the early Clauses of the Bill which I think are most desirable. First, the lifting of the burden upon the child witness in sexual cases to give evidence other than by a written statement, except in rare cases. I think also that the simple form of oath is a good thing. It is not so important to me as it is to many others, but I still think it is a good thing. I also think that the substitution of the words "care, protection and control" for "care and protection" is logical and that it will be valuable.
  Especially valuable in my view is the procedure whereby parents now do not have to bring their children before the court as being beyond control. To do so, in my view, is quite wrong. It is also quite wrong for parents to throw away their children in this way, to abdicate responsibility for them and, in fact, to confess, more or less, their own inadequacy as well. The new provision is a good thing. The Bill includes many other excellent practical benefits which I will not take up the time of the House in mentioning.
  I now come to the proposal that the minimum age of criminal responsibility—if that is what we should call it—should be raised from 8 to 10. This, I realise, is less than the Ingleby Report required. My hon. Friend has inferred that up to the age of 10 children are to be dealt with not by juvenile courts but perhaps just as naughty children. That is how one should treat children, certainly up to the age of 10. I am glad that the age limit has been raised to 10. I think that they should be controlled, and punished if necessary, by their own parents. If the parents are not adequate for the duty, some other means must be taken, perhaps either educationally or through the social services or if necessary, I imagine, by the processes of Clause 2. As a justice of the peace and one who occasionally sits in a juvenile court, I think that 10 is about the right age at present, although I may be wrong.
  I sometimes wonder whether some of the methods of the older days might not be more effective—when there was a
  1298
  police constable on his feet on the beat, when he very often knew the type of child who was likely to get into trouble, when he could go to the parents and warn them early on, when occasionally he could put a hardish hand on the place where it mattered. In older days when there were less children and more policemen much work was done in this way and not in nearly so complicated a manner. I expect that the more psychiatrically minded and younger Members of the House will think I am a square for saying this. In fact it was done. Surely we want to introduce some such relationship between the local authorities and families through this Bill.
  Nothing in the Bill and nothing that we do by the Bill can be a substitute for sound and happy home life. That is very important. Nothing in the Bill can be a substitute for proper discipline in the home. A local authority can never be a substitute for parents or for parental affection or for discipline in the home or for firmness of purpose. It can never do anything like that. That is something we must accept. It is a fact we must deal with.
  Nevertheless, I feel that the Bill will go a long way towards being a substitute for the things which are lacking in some homes—not in every home by any means, and I am glad that this point has already been made. But the Bill will go a long way to provide what is lacking in a very small proportion of homes.
  As I said earlier, I welcome the Bill. It is needed, although I am sorry that it is needed. I do not think that it will be easy to bring the provisions of the Bill into the most efficient effect. There will have to be considerable consultation between local authorities, my right hon. Friend and voluntary bodies. But I am absolutely certain that when the Bill is brought into effect my right hon. Friend has it in his power to make it a success. He can call for reports when he wishes. I believe that the Bill will do much good, and I welcome it.
  5.23 p.m.
  Mr. Charles Royle: When hon. Members read what the hon. Member for Bridgwater (Sir G. Wills) has just said, particularly the closing sentences of his speech, they will find something almost classic in his suggestions for what can replace parental control. We can all completely agree with his remarks.

  1299
  With the exception of the hon. Gentleman's remarks about the cuffing policeman and the fact that he is satisfied with the age limit of 10, I am in agreement with everything he said. Instead of taking up the points the hon. Gentleman mentioned, I intend to use them as I go along as I make my points.
  I welcome the Bill, but I am in agreement with my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, South-East (Miss Bacon) in offering criticisms, I hope constructive, rather than merely patting the Government on the back all the way through. I believe that this is the right approach. I believe that the Government want us to make suggestions. The Government want us to say what we think is wrong and particularly what is omitted from the Bill. It is in that spirit that I address the House.
  On occasions like this it is very refreshing to get away from the party fights which take place across the Floor of the House. These are the occasions when we can get together as a House of Commons and consider some of the great social problems of our day without any party political rancour.
  When thinking about the Ingleby Report, it is interesting to remember that in October, 1956, when the Committee was set up, there had been a fall in juvenile delinquency. In fact, the Home Office had closed eight or nine approved schools. It was in that atmosphere that the Ingleby Committee came into being. After two years, in 1958, there had been a complete swing. There was an increase in juvenile delinquency. The Committee had to switch its thoughts to a new situation. It may well be that it was the changing circumstances that produced the Report on which the Bill is based.
  So, after forty-nine sitting days, examining 151 witnesses over a period of four years, the Committee reported. It made 125 recommendations. Two and a half years later a Bill reaches the Floor of the House of Commons based on those recommendations. I hope that I am not being disrespectful to the Home Secretary when I say that this is far too long and that what the Bill ultimately does is far too little based on those 125 recommendations. The Bill implements so few of the recommendations, and they were disappointing to some of us after the years which had elapsed.
  1300
  As briefly as I can, because I always have inhibitions about speaking too long in the House, I want to look at a few of the questions of commission and omission. I come to Clause 1 straight away. This is the prevention Clause. In that sense it is admirable. For so long we have been concerned only with cure and have given no attention whatever to prevention.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, South-East referred to the age limit for people who sit on the management committees of approved schools. I am now too long in the tooth to be a juvenile court magistrate, but I am on the management committee of an approved school and getting desperately near the age that my hon. Friend mentioned. I shall be very happy to give up at 75, or perhaps a little earlier. During the passage of the 1948 Criminal Justice Bill my right hon. Friend the Member for South Shields (Mr. Ede) said in Committee that it was desirable that the father type rather than the grandfather type should he connected with approved schools and serve as juvenile court magistrates. I get a bit concerned when I look at my 6 ft. 1 in grandson and realise that I am in that category now.
  I mentioned my experience of being on the management committee of an approved school. Hon. Members may be interested to know that we have divided the school into houses so that there is a closer contact between the managers and the boys. Four of us look after each house. It is an amazing experience to examine the after-care reports concerning boys who have left the school. The aftercare officers give us reports on the boys and the homes in which they are living. In this connection, it is interesting to note that 90 per cent. of juvenile delinquents who come before the courts come from unsatisfactory homes. Realising, therefore, that unsatisfactory homes are the basis of our juvenile delinquency problems, I welcome the Clause as far as it goes because it aims at tackling the problem from the root, that is, to do something about the homes from which the juvenile delinquents come.
  In my constituency there is a fine family service unit which is mentioned in paragraph 30 of the Ingleby Report. Its members are doing a great job of work and I should like to see that concept

  1301
  extended to cover more homes. Clause 1 will help to achieve that. However, I feel that the Clause is rather vague and that its terms need strengthening from the local authority point of view. After all, the Clause will cost local authorities a considerable amount of money. I should have thought that this is more a national than a local authority problem and that the Government should take a larger share of the financial burden.
  It would be interesting to know if the Government consider that sufficient accommodation is available to implement the Bill. For instance, Clause 9—which deals with the temporary committal of persons ordered to be sent to approved schools—depends for its success on the availability of sufficient accommodation. Likewise, Clause 11—concerning the designation of remand homes as classifying centres—equally depends on the availability of accommodation. Clause 23 relates to children and young persons detained in places of safety, but do we have enough of such places?
  It should be remembered that Clause 5 will add a lot of additional work to that being done by probation officers. While I welcome the recent salary award granted to them, the Bill will place a great deal of extra work on their shoulders. Do we have enough probation officers, particularly those who are sufficiently qualified to do this work? The answers to these questions will enable us to decide if the Bill is practicable.
  I am still concerned with the plight of a child who has not committed a specific offence but who is sent to an approved school. What will such a child's position be when the Bill becomes law? As I have said, I know something about approved schools and I am concerned about the influences which meet any child, particularly one who has not committed an offence, on being placed in one. I have in mind some nasty influences which can change a child, particularly one who has not committed an offence but who has been sent there because he or she is in need of care and protection. I am concerned to see that such a child is not turned into a juvenile delinquent. Clause 7 deals with this matter and I should like an assurance from the Home Secretary that my fears in this respect are not justified. I am
  1302
  inclined to think, however, that he will not be able to give me such an assurance.
  It is a matter of extreme urgency that more homes should be provided for emotionally maladjusted children. I should also like to see provision made for the revocation of adoption orders in cases where it is shown that the adopted parent has committed an offence against the child or is engaged in criminal activities. I appreciate that this type of case does not arise frequently and that some provision is made in Clause 2. However, the Clause does not provide for adoption orders to be cancelled, and I hope that Clause 2 may be extended in this direction.
  Although I have said that this type of case does not often arise, I could cite examples of it having happened. Because it can happen, there should be some way of dealing with adoptive parents who have proved themselves not worthy of being the parents-in-law of the child. I should like to see a Clause added to the Bill to enable courts, acting under the Guardianship of Infants Act, 1925, to make orders committing a child to the care of a suitable person. There is a serious gap in the Bill in this connection, particularly when one considers that such power already exists in certain cases; divorce and matrimonial cases which come before magistrates' courts. The law has gone so far, but it needs to go further. We could take that further step in the Bill. Some provision in this connection was made in a Private Member's Bill—which, I regret, did not get very far—introduced by the hon. Member for Plymouth, Devonport (Miss Vickers). I hope that in Committee we can consider this point further and, perhaps, do something constructive about it.
  A great deal has been said today about the age of criminal responsibility. I will save my remarks on this subject for the Committee stage, especially since my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, South-East expressed my point of view far better than I could. The case she made out was unanswerable, and I look forward to debating the matter further in Committee.
  I welcome Clause 19 in regard to juvenile court magistrates sitting with chairmen of quarter sessions in appeal cases. I know some chairmen of quarter

  1303
  sessions and I think that it would be desirable if experienced juvenile court magistrates could sit on the bench during appeal cases. I understand that the Magistrates' Association was responsible for the suggestion in the Clause that a woman should also be on the bench, particularly when the court has before it a case involving a girl.
  Clause 27, dealing with evidence in proceedings for sexual offences, is a very good Clause. My late friend Sir Basil Henriques, in a long correspondence in The Times, did a great deal to influence public and Parliamentary opinion on this important topic. It is desirable that, in general, girls under a certain age should not appear in court to give evidence where sexual offences have been corn-mined against them.
  I am concerned, however, about the provision in subsection (2, b) under which the police can require the attendance of the child for the identification of the accused. I wonder whether that paragraph might not make the purpose of the main Clause somewhat innocuous. In passing, I might add that some of us have had experience as magistrates of seeing girls of tender years who seemed to be enjoying the experience of giving evidence in court about a sexual offence, but, in the main, I think it is wise that we should not have them there.
  There are so many things in the Bill that we can consider it fully only in Committee. Second Reading speeches are not the occasion to go through the whole gamut of its provisions. The Bill is good only because it does something. My complaint is that it does not do enough, and I am sure that the Home Secretary will agree with me when I say that in Committee we shall all be concerned to make it a better Bill.
  5.42 p.m.
  Miss Joan VickersI am glad to have the opportunity of following in the debate the hon. Member for Salford, West (Mr. Royle) with whom I have had correspondence about certain points which he has mentioned today. I know that he speaks from great knowledge and sincerity and I agree with everything he said and I, too, hope that in Committee we shall make some alterations in the Bill.
  1304
  I should like to take up one or two of the points made by the hon. Lady the Member for Leeds, South-East (Miss Bacon), in her admirable speech. She knows that I am committed to raising the age of criminal responsibility. She knows this from the way I voted on a previous Bill and I hope that some of the points which she made will come within the research Clause.
  I go all the way with the hon. Lady in what she says about the N.S.P.C.C. I am not saying that I do not think that the work of this organisation is excellent. I think that it does a wonderful job, but it would be unfortunate if two organisations, the Society and the local authority, were allowed to overlap in their work, both being able to take cases to court.
  As to approved schools, I agree with the hon. Member for Salford, West and I should like my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary to bear in mind that one of the most noticeable stigmas of going to an approved school is that certain jobs are now being closed to these young people. I hope that my right hon. Friend will watch this trend. It is most unfortunate that boys and girls who have been in an approved school, where we would hope that they had received training and were cured of their criminal tendencies, might be prevented from taking their rightful place in life afterwards.
  I welcome the Bill because I think that it shows a further understanding of children and young people. I should like to pay tribute to the Association of Child Care Officers and to its president. When Bills of this kind are produced it is extremely helpful when the individuals who have to operate their provisions take the interest which has been shown by this Association. Most hon. Members have been circulated, before the Bill was altered in another place, with the Association's thoughts on every one of the Clauses. When we bear in mind how much work these officers have to do it shows the interest they take not only in their current work but in how they will work under the Bill in future. I should also like to pay tribute to the children's officers, who do a selfless job.
  In this country, if we include voluntary organisations, there are over 76,000 children in care and this number presents a tremendous problem. As far as I understand, the Bill is in five parts. It aims

  1305
  at prevention being better than cure, to increase parental responsibility and to bring that repsonsibility home to the parents. It also increases the penalties for trouble-makers, for instance, by lowering the minimum attendance centre age to 10 years. It enables individuals to secure better supervision and aftercare, and it deals with the employment of the young people.
  I understand that Clause 1 enables rents to be included in cash payments made in exceptional cases, but I should like to know whether a local authority is enabled to pay the rent of a person who may be evicted if that person is living under a local authority. I see no difficulty about private houses, but one of the main reasons for the division of families is often the eviction of a family. Will it be possible to help them on these occasions?
  Will it also be possible to conduct experiments? I should like to draw attention to the experiment which is being conducted by a voluntary organisation in Plymouth. We in the organisation have taken a house and divided it into two to accommodate evicted families. They go there under an agreement that they will be supervised by various voluntary persons and that somebody will be responsible for collecting the rents. After a period during which they have given proof that they are in a better financial position, the local authority has agreed to rehouse them in a local authority house. This type of experiment is invaluable. Will it now be possible for a local authority to undertake this kind of work? This provision is quite different from Part II accommodation.
  So many speeches have already been made in another place on the Bill as a whole that I should like to devote the remainder of my speech to specific points which may be answered if not today then at some later date. Clause 2 (1, a) refers to the child or young person as in need of care, protection or control if
  "… he is not receiving such care, protection and guidance as a good parent may reasonably be expected to give.…"
  I would hope that my right hon. Friend might consider whether it is necessary to satisfy all three of these conditions before action is considered necessary. Very often a family can be put right with
  1306
  advice without the child necessarily needing care and protection.
  Clause 2 (2, b) refers to
  "the lack of care, protection or guidance … likely to cause him unnecessary suffering …".
  Does mental cruelty come under this heading, and is it possible to take action on that ground?
  Subsection (2, d) refers to the child or young person being a member of the same household as a person who has been convicted of certain offences. There are cases of what somebody has called "immoral mums" who take in friends. They are not running a brothel, because the woman is probably the only woman in the house, but this is an extremely had influence, particularly on a young girl. If the woman has not been convicted, is it possible that if evidence is provided that the woman is conducting herself in this manner a children's officer can enter the house and ascertain whether the child is in need of protection?
  I would have hoped, as the Ingleby Committee suggested, that there would be a statutory obligation on the local authorities to submit for Ministerial approval schemes for the protection of suffering children. I believe that it is essential that schemes shall be produced by local authorities so that a similar standard is maintained throughout the country, for it is extremely important to have a certain standard of administration fitted to all local authority areas. Of course, conditions vary to a certain extent in different areas, but, nevertheless, there should be some standard and some regulations under which the appropriate committee can work.
  I should like to refer to the question of a parent taking action under Clause 1 and perhaps being over-demanding in what he thinks he should get in the way of assistance from a local authority. Would a parent be able to sue a children's officer on one or another pretext, or would the committee take responsibility? In other words, in the same way as we have a housing tenancy sub-committee which often deals with the question of priority and decides who should occupy a house, will there be some similar protection for the children's officer in the form of a committee to which he may submit these problems? I can see that there will be a great deal of anxiety, when the terms of the Bill relating to

  1307
  the various demands which may be made on children's officers are made known, if there is not sufficient protection for these people.
  Clause 4 will be particularly beneficial. If a child is taken before a court in London he can be remitted to, say, Plymouth, his home town. I hope that the terms of this Clause will be carried out to the full, because this is the only way in which we can get full justice for the individual child.
  I now come to Clause 8 and the question of religion. This problem might not have occurred had my Guardianship of Infants Bill been passed; at any rate, the problem would have been mitigated. There is a question of defining religion. A mother may say, "My child is a Roman Catholic and I want him to be brought up in the Church of England", or a father or guardian may say that he wishes the child to have a certain religion.
  This Clause states that
  "If the parent, guardian or nearest adult relative of a person in respect of whom an approved school order has been made applies to a juvenile court for an order under this subsection and proves to the court that the religious persuasion of that person is not as declared … by the approved school order"
  action can be taken by the Home Secretary. But it would appear that no copy of the order is given to the parent and he does not always know to which school the child has gone. How will the parent know where to apply? He has to apply, I gather, within a limited period. I should be glad if this point could be considered.
  I joint the hon. Lady the Member for Leeds, South-East in expressing the hope that we may have some more remand centres. We have both done hard work in this connection, and I think that the existing one has been beneficial and that more will be provided in the future. I was glad to see that remand homes are now to become classifying centres and I hope that magistrates will use these even more. I had been expecting to hear some protest about this Clause from hon. Members who are magistrates. Several organisations have written saying that they do not think that remand homes should be classifying centres, but I think that as long as there are enough approved schools this is an excellent idea.
  1308
  I should like to refer to what I call the outpatients' work that can be done by these classifying centres. Such work is being carried out now at Stamford House. Magistrates are sending children to the centre from their homes and they are being classified. I should like to see this done on a much larger scale, for I believe it is proving very efficacious.
  I should like to know why, in Clause 14, the age of 16 has been fixed as the maximum of a person detained in an approved school and whose parents are compelled to inform the managers of the approved school of their change of address. I understand that their financial liability continues for a longer period than this. I appreciate that a person over 16 cannot be compelled, after release, to live with his parents, or even to communicate with them, but I think such a person should know where his parents are. I hope that we shall insist on schools obtaining the addresses of the parents and having them available for the girls or bays who may wish to have that information.
  Clause 25 is extremely important. It relates to the attendance of a parent or guardian in court. It says that
  "… any person who is a parent or guardian…may be required to attend at the court …."
  I should like to see the word "shall" substituted for "may". It is obsolutely essential to get the co-operation of parents, and preferably both parents. Far too often only the mother attends the court, the father may be working, and the mother takes all the responsibility during the proceedings. She is probably the only person who visits the boy in the remand home or approved school. If the father had taken more interest in the beginning, probably the child would not have found his way to court. One of the ways of bringing home to both parents their full responsibility is to insist that they shall both be in court when the girl or boy is before the magistrates.
  I welcome Clause 26 because I feel that a doctor's certificate should be an advantage and help to magistrates in arriving at their decisions.
  My hon. Friend the Joint Under-Secretary of State said that the oath is to be changed, and I welcome this. I feel that "I promise before Almighty God" is much better than "I swear". In many of the homes from which these

  1309
  children come the word "swear" is understood to refer to the bad use of the English language. One often hears a mother say, "Do not swear before the children." I believe that the change in the wording will be a great advantage.
  I now come to the only point that I want to discuss under the part of the Bill dealing with employment, namely, Clause 33. I am glad that the minimum age at which a person may engage in street trading is to be raised to 17, but I should like the Minister to consider not raising the age from 16 at present. The school-leaving age is still 15, and a young person, particularly in the period of unemployment, may take a job with his father as a street trader. Why should he not go straight from school to this job instead of having to wait until he is 17? I quite understand that if the school-leaving age is raised to 16 the other age could go to 17, but it seems to me that, at present, there might be quite a gap when a boy could not obtain other employment and employment as a street trader would be the only way of keeping him at work.
  I am very glad that there is to be more research. I would like my right hon. Friend to tell us how much money is to be available for research and how serious are to be the studies. We continue to pass legislation—I hope that the Bill now before us will be of further help in bringing happiness to young people—but we still are without sufficient knowledge and the fruits of sufficient research. I want Clause 43 to be taken really seriously. I want my right hon. Friend to tell us how much research is going on now and how much money is being spent on it, and I hope that he will assure us that he intends to see that we have experts dealing with these questions.
  It has been said that the extent of the problem is, unfortunately, growing. The hon. Lady put forward some suggestions which she would like to be followed up, but one of the first tasks, surely, must be to find out why, in this age of comparative affluence, children continue to commit so many crimes. This, I suggest, is something which calls for thorough research.
  I was glad to note that in paragraph 40 of its Report the Ingleby Committee recommended that arrangements should be made for the protection of families at
  1310
  risk, as this is a particularly difficult matter. I feel that the Bill may represent a step forward, but it will need the cooperation of a great many people if we are to be able properly to protect families at risk in the early stages. For instance, a rent collector on his rounds will know that a family is not paying the rent. When the children do not go to school, the teachers will know. The trouble at the moment is that all the various people who have dealings with a child seem to have no central focal point to which they can pass their information. Can my right hon. Friend tell me who is to be responsible in the future? Could the children's officer, perhaps, collate the knowledge at an early date in order to fulfil the function we have in mind for the protection of families at risk?
  Now, a word about the Press. I understand that reporters are worried about their position in taking a record of proceedings in an adult court when they are not aware that the proceedings had actually arisen from proceedings in the juvenile court. They fear that, by reporting such a case, they may be contravening previous legislation, and they suggest that it would be helpful if words were introduced into the Bill to the effect that the onus is on the magistrate or the clerk of the court to announce in some way that the proceedings have arisen out of earlier proceedings elsewhere.
  Mr. MacCoil: Does not the hon. Lady think that it would be much tidier if there were no reporting of the names of any children or young persons in whatever court they appear?
  Miss Vickers: That is a different question. I am raising a point on what is actually happening now. Press reporters are nervous about their position in such circumstances and they would like the matter cleared up. Perhaps my right hon. Friend will be able to tell me that something can be done. I agree with the hon. Member in the general point which he makes, but that was not the case which I was putting.
  I welcome the Bill and look forward to it becoming law in the not too distant future. I hope that some of the comments and suggestions which I have made will be of interest to my right hon. Friend and will be considered in Committee.
  6.5 p.m.
  Mr. David Weitzman: I was struck by the appalling figures given by the Under-Secretary of State. I gather that, between 1938 and today, the number of children between the ages of 8 and 17 found guilty of indictable offences has risen by 120 per cent., and the proportion of boys guilty of indictable offences in 1961 was more than double that in 1938. Another figure worthy of note is that, since the passing of the Children Act, 1948, the number of children in the case of local authorities, despite all we have done in the Welfare State, remains steady at about 60,000.
  These are appalling figures. Obviously, delinquency in children presents an enormous problem. Naturally, we must do all we can by way of legislation, but what we can do in that way is limited and certainly not good enough. Delinquency in the child is often due to family conditions and circumstances, yet bringing a child before the juvenile court and punishing him by taking him away to an approved school may often be a bad thing for the child and for the family, too. It should not be done if other methods can be use.
  I was much struck by a report in last night's Evening Standard which I hope other hon. Members have noted. It referred to a mother in Ramsgate. Apparently, her child, now 12 years of age, was, in December, 1961, committed by a juvenile court because he had been kept away from school for two months. According to the mother, she had given him private tuition, but he was handed over to the care of the children's department of the Kent County Council. Apparently, he was a very bright lad and passed his 11-plus examination with flying colours. But he was separated from his mother. She became ill. His whereabouts were discovered by a friend and, according to this report, the mother was, after a year's separation, permitted to see him for one hour only.
  I can only hope that the report is wrong in some of its particulars. If it is not, it discloses treatment of a most callous kind. I refer to it because it is an illustration of how the separation of the child in such circumstances may lead to ill-health and serious disruption of family life.
  1312
  Obviously, a great deal can be done by work of prevention and by family rehabilitation. There are voluntary organisations which do such work and do it quite splendidly. Like hon. Members on both sides, I welcome Clause 1 because of the duty—I emphasise the word "duty"—it imposes upon the local authorities and the welfare powers it vests in them. It is a positive duly, to make available "advice, guidance and assistance", and the specific object is to promote the welfare of children. Of course, one must remember the definition of children, that is, those under the age of 18.
  Clause 1 (2) gives the local authority an opportunity, which, I am sure, it will welcome, to make use of the voluntary organisations. I have had many cases of parents, whose children have been sent to approved schools, pleading that their children should be restored to them. How often have we felt that, if preventive action could have been taken, if the parents could have been approached and advised before such a step was taken, many a mother would have been spared long periods of anguish and many a child would have been better for it.
  I listened to the criticism, properly made, in the excellent speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Widnes (Mr. MacColl). I think that a good deal can be done to tighten up this Clause. I think that a fair criticism of it is that it is vague, and I hope that in Committee something will be done about it. I trust that, whatever is done, expeditious action will be taken to make the Clause effective. It is extremely important that a real effort should be made to deal with children who are not in any sense of the term criminals, but we should deal with them in the light of the fact that they are socially handicapped.
  I welcome certain changes made in the Bill, and I wish to refer to only one or two of them. Clause 52 extends the existing restrictions on publicity in newspapers of particulars calculated to identify children and young persons in court proceedings. It refers to three sets of cases: proceedings arising out of proceedings in a juvenile court; proceedings in any court, whether or not they arise out of a sexual offence or immoral conduct, if the court so directs; and to sound and television broadcasts.

  1313
  I welcome the Clause because the extraordinary situation today is this. One may be concerned with a case in which it is thought wise that the name of the party should be kept out of the Press. A request is accordingly made to the trial judge, who often says, "I have no power to order this, but I can request the Press not to print these particulars", and the request is usually complied with. There is no power to insist that the name shall not be disclosed.
  I welcome the Clause because of an instance I should like to quote. I defended a young man of about 15 years of age who had committed a murder. It was an appalling case and his parents were in a most dreadful state because of it. During the case I asked the judge whether he would be good enough to ask members of the Press to keep the names of the parties out of the newspapers. He thought that it was a proper request and he accordingly made it.
  The Press loyally suppressed the names, except in one instance, and I take the opportunity of quoting it. John Gordon took the opportunity, in his column in the Sunday Express, of writing words to this effect, "A request was made to suppress the name in this case. I do not think that it ought to be suppressed. Here is the name and address", and he published them. I welcome the Clause because of the power which it gives to suppress information of that kind.
  I want to refer to Clause 27, by which the evidence of a child of 13 years in proceedings in a sexual offence before the examining justices is not to be given and in substitution a statement in writing is given. We often come across cases of the most dreadful kind in which children and, for that matter, their parents suffer. The children go before the court and have to go into the most horrible details, particularly before the examining justices in the lower court. This is, therefore, a very good provision. It must, in the nature of things, be subject to exceptions, but I welcome it.
  Also very satisfactory is the provision in Clause 19 which requires justices qualified to sit in a juvenile court to sit with a recorder and act as assessors in appeals from juvenile courts or when dealing with persons committed by juvenile courts. I should like to say a few words about the compromise solution adopted
  1314
  by the Government in raising the age of criminal responsibility to 10. I use the word "compromise solution" advisedly. I was sorry to see that the decision in another place to raise the age of criminal responsibility to 12 was reversed. I hope that in Committee we shall restore the original decision. If the Government are ready to raise the age of criminal responsibility to 10, surely there is no reason why they should not raise it to 12. Every argument which the Government used against raising the age limit to 12 applies with equal force to what they have done in raising it to 10. I am aware of the figures quoted by the Under-Secretary on this matter.
  To talk about a child of 8 years as a criminal is absurd. To talk about a child of 10 as a criminal is also absurd and to put on the record of a child under 12 the fact that he was guilty of a criminal offence is equally absurd. Even the Government recognise this by providing in the Bill that such a record may not be used against him in later proceedings up to the age of 14. Children who pilfer or cause damage are mischievous. They should be reprimanded and punished, but not branded as young criminals. Their acts create domestic and family problems which should be dealt with, but they should not be the subject of a criminal prosecution. To prosecute a small child causes not only harm to the child, but intense misery to the parents.
  I was reminded by my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, South-East (Miss Bacon) of the debate that we had on this matter and of what the Attorney-General said. He said that we should not discuss it because we could not do that without discussing the alternative which was referred to in the Report. The alternative was the civil, or quasi-civil, procedure to which the Under-Secretary referred. But it was said in another place and it was said today by the Under-Secretary that there can be no question of adopting that alternative procedure. I do not know what the position is. Why we should compromise on the age of 10 and not agree to what we all want, namely, to raise the age of criminal responsibility to 12, I do not know.
  I should have liked to deal with other provisions in the Bill, but I appreciate that other hon. Members wish to speak.

  1315
  The Bill, as far as it goes, is good and I welcome it subject to certain amendments which I hope will be made. However, I cannot help but feel that the opportunity has been lost of dealing with the problem of delinquent children on much broader lines. We have had juvenile courts for half a century and in that period delinquency has increased. We have failed—and we should recognise it—to tackle the problem with any degree of success. The whole matter wants rethinking.
  Many suggestions have been made today and I do not want to go into them, but surely we need many revolutionary changes. The Ingleby Report could have dealt with this matter much more effectively and on much broader lines. The Report was a good one as far as it went, and it is to be regretted that its recommendations have not been fully implemented. Perhaps we shall have to wait for a Government which is more alive to this problem to deal with it in a more radical fashion.
  6.20 p.m.
  Mr. Edward Gardner: I share the disquiet expressed by the hon. and learned Member for Stoke Newington and Hackney, North (Mr. Weitzman) about the figures which were given to the House by my hon. Friend the Joint Under-Secretary of State. They are very alarming and shocking. As was said by the hon. Lady the Member for Leeds, South-East (Miss Bacon), this is a most important debate because it touches upon legislation which has as its object the welfare of children, a subject which inevitably pricks the conscience of us all.
  It is only right that one should not be too optimistic about the possible effects of legislation in this field. Just as one cannot create happiness by giving a person money, so one cannot ensure wisdom by legislation. And it is just as well to remember that more than fifty years ago, when juvenile courts were first introduced into this country, Parliament was promised—and these are the words used at the time—a large diminution of youthful crime. Unhappily that hope and that promise have not been fulfilled, and today we have to face a sombre background against which to carry on this debate.
  1316
  My hon. Friend the Joint Under-Secretary of State has reminded the House about the increase of indictable crime among young people. The number of children and young persons—those from 8 to 17—has increased since 1938 by 7 per cent., but, as he has told us, indictable crime by people of that age has risen by 120 per cent. The rate of crime among young people is three times the rate of crime among adults, and it apparently reaches its peak at the age of 14. These figures have been rehearsed again and again in this House, in another place and elsewhere, but they never lose the quality of shock and they are something we have to contend with.
  Whenever one sees a child standing before a juvenile court charged with a criminal offence, one cannot escape the feeling and the conviction that he should not be where he is—that in his place should be standing his parents. It is because of this that I for one—and in this I am joined by many hon. Members —warmly welcome the provisions of Clause 25 which give the magistrates a discretion to ensure that the parents of the child should be present when the child comes before the court.
  I ask my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary to consider the suggestion made by my hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Devonport (Miss Vickers) that this power should be made obligatory. There may well be something in the suggestion that both parents should be compelled to go to court to hear what has happened to their child. What more important business in life have they, and what possible reason can there be for excusing their absence?
  Of course, as the hon. Member for Leeds, South-East said, the heart of the Bill is to be found in Clause 1, which provides the possibility and the hope of preventive measures which, we all hope, will be wide enough and effective enough to do something to steady and finally to reduce the appalling rate of juvenile crime.
  I should also like to welcome Clause 27, which deals with the need of a child to give evidence in sexual cases and proposes to replace the present oral evidence which would be given in committal proceedings by a written statement unless

  1317
  the defence objects. This is a very beneficial step forward. It does not need a great deal of imagination, even by an adult, to appreciate the appalling effect that giving evidence of this character can have upon the tender mind of a child. I also ask my right hon. Friend to consider whether in Committee he can raise the age at which it becomes necessary to give oral evidence twice in court, because, as adolescence approaches, perhaps the sensitivity of the witness becomes even more pronounced.
  I am also very pleased to see that Clause 28 substitutes in the oath to be administered to the child the words "I promise by Almighty God" for the words "I swear by Almighty God". This may seem a trivial matter, but those who have sat in court and have seen the difficulties in which children find themselves in appreciating the nature of the oath will, I think, welcome this alternative means of administering it.
  As my hon. Friend the Member for Devonport said, the child frequently associates the word "swear" with the use of bad language, and the difficulty of making him understand the oath—and, of course, a number of evidential points of great importance depend on this—frequently centres round the word "swear". The new word "promise" may well overcome that.
  I also applaud the introduction by Clause 52 of the extension of restrictions upon the publication of identity of young people who have come from juvenile courts to proceedings in another court. It has always seemed slightly anomalous —indeed, more so—that a child can be given the protection which society thinks is important before the juvenile court, but that the moment he goes on, appeal from a finding in juvenile court the cloak of anonymity can be taken from him with consequences Which can only be harmful to him.
  I should like also to deal with Clause 30, which concerns cruelty to children and the penalties which can be imposed on summary conviction. Of course it is right that the derisory fine of £25, which is the maximum which can be imposed under the present law, should be increased to £100. I hope that hon. Members will not think this a legalistic or niggling point in any way, but I feel that as the Bill deals with punishment and seeks to
  1318
  amend the principal Act of 1933 by increasing fines in this way, it should at the same time—and this surely would be a simple matter—increase the maximum period of imprisonment which may be imposed upon parents for cruelty to their children.
  I fully appreciate the point made by my hon. Friend the Joint Under-Secretary that the authorities, that is, the prosecution, can rely on other Statutes, such as the Offences Against the Person Act or the Sexual Offences Act, which would allow greater and more apt punishments; but it should not be left to the authorities in this rather haphazard way to decide under which Act they should proceed. If they are to go for a parent who has been guilty of cruelty to a child, the Bill ought to amend the principal Act by giving the courts power to impose appropriate penalties.
  It is a curious and, one might even say in another context, a comical anomaly that there is a Victorian Act still the law which allows a court to impose upon an offender for wounding a cow or other cattle a sentence of imprisonment of fourteen years. Under the Children and Young Persons Act, 1933, as we well know, on indictment a parent of a child who has assaulted it or has blinded it, or who has caused the child to lose its hearing, or even its sanity, can be sent to prison as a maximum punishment for only two years. I should like to see the Bill amended in such a manner that it brought the penal provisions of the 1933 Act into line with those penal provisions contained in statutes such as the Offences Against the Person Act and the Sexual Offences Act.
  I want, finally, to deal with something which is omitted from the Bill. It is the radical alteration of what has been called the age of criminal responsibility, the absence of any provisions in the Bill to abolish what we call the doli incapax rule. May I first get my understanding of the rule correct?
  As I understand it, under the present law, until the age of 8 a child is presumed by the law to be incapable of forming a guilty intent in his mind sufficient to make him guilty of a criminal offence. From the age of 8 to 14, it is presumed by the law that he is incapable of forming in his mind such a guilty intent, unless the contrary is proved. The

  1319
  rule, as I understand it, is that the rebutting evidence which will overthrow the presumption of the rule of doli incapax must be clear and strong and beyond the possibility of contradiction and doubt.
  The Ingleby Report suggests that children under the age of 12 should be brought before a court as being in need of protection or discipline. We as a House have to bring to bear upon this difficult problem our own experiences and our own views and our own consciences. For myself, I find the arguments one way and the other finely balanced, but I must confess that over the last year or so I have veered towards the view that we should keep the rule of doll incapax and should not fully follow the recommendations of the Ingleby Committee.
  I will briefly state my reasons. The rule that a child is incapable of forming a guilty intent until he reaches the age of 8 is wholly artificial and, for most children, wholly unreal. We all know the story of the boy who says to the police officer when caught in the act of stealing a bicycle, "You cannot take me in; I am only 7". Those of us who are parents and those of us who have any dealings at all with children know full well that at a very early age the average child has a very full and dramatic appreciation of what a crime is.
  When one tries to apply or thinks of applying the rule of doli incapax, one is dealing with something which is artificial. Let it be said—and I am sure that those right hon. and hon. Members who sit in juvenile courts will agree with me—that frequently, if only because of its artificiality and the difficulties which come from that, this rule is applied with various degrees of strictness in various juvenile courts. I do not dispute that for one moment.
  However, I cannot help thinking that the rule is still something of a safeguard to a child. This rule, together with the rule that it is the prosecution's burden to prove a criminal offence beyond all reasonable doubt, is an additional safeguard for the child who comes before a juvenile court charged with a criminal offence. It is all very well to say that if we do away with this rule and it disappears, the proceedings before the juvenile court will be translated into some
  1320
  form of civil proceedings. The fact remains—and the hon. Lady the Member for Leeds, South-East said this—that in the minds of the parents and the child, however the matter may be seen in law, it is regarded as something in the nature of a criminal proceeding. The child would not be helped by abolishing this rule. Indeed, as I see it, its abolition would be removing from the prosecution one obstacle which may be necessary to protect a child from an injustice.
  Furthermore, if we do away with criminal proceedings for children and transfer them into civil proceedings, we alter the whole balance and weight of the burden of proof. It no longer has to be said that the court must be satisfied so that it is sure, so that it is satisfied beyond all reasonable doubt. It then has to be said, as a judge in a civil court can say, "All I want to be is satisfied on the balance of probabilities". In adult life no one—and this is the pride of our law —would accept that as a proposition. Are we to accept it for a child? What is the reason for reducing this burden of proof which now lies upon the prosecution and which should still remain on the shoulders of those who accuse a child?
  Mr. MacColl: The hon. and learned Member for Billericay (Mr. Gardner) should appreciate that what the Ingleby Committee was doing was offering a package deal. It was saying that if the age of criminal responsibility were raised to 12, it was then prepared to see the common law presumption go between the ages of 12 and 14 and that in order to meet the needs of children below the age of 12, care and protection proceedings were needed. I do not think that the Ingleby Committee necessarily wanted any one of those without the others. They all go together.
  Mr. Gardner: I fully appreciate that, but the counterpoint which I am trying to make and which is something which agitates the minds and consciences of us all is that by doing what the Ingleby Committee recommended—and this is recognised by that Committee—these two safeguards are removed. It is not without interest or significance that in paragraph 66 of its Report the Committee said that it accepted the basic principle that where a criminal offence was alleged it was for the prosecution adequately to prove that

  1321
  criminal offence. In my submission, to prove a criminal offence adequately, it has to be proved beyond all reasonable doubt. By accepting the recommendations of the Ingleby Committee we would remove that prop, and it could be said, and it may be said and sometimes it can be said, that injustice could be done. To my mind it is as important—and some of us may think more important—that justice should be done to a child as that justice should be done to an adult.
  I fully appreciate the argument which is frequently employed in favour of the Committee's recommendations on this issue, namely, that we should educate and not punish children, and that punishment is not the way to reform the child. However, I see a very clear and important fallacy in that. Can it not be, and is it often not the case, that punishment is part of the education? We all know the fear that the young boy stands in when he sees a policeman and is thinking, perhaps for the moment, of going slightly on the wrong side of the law. We all know the apprehension which comes into the mind of the child when it is threatened with the possibility of appearing in a criminal court.
  I should have thought that in the ordinary way the greatest danger here was that such a fear, such a threat, might leave a stigma on the mind of the child, or might leave a mark on him, which would last for life. If this were so, I can say quite frankly that I would at once be in favour of implementing the Committee's recommendations, but in Clause 16 the Bill does something which is absolutely essential if we are to implement the provisions of the Report. It lays down that all offences by children under the age of 14 shall in later life, that is, 21 and over, be disregarded by the court.
  How often has one seen in court a man of 40 or 50 standing in the dock and having read to him a childhood history of petty crime, the court saying, "We disregard that and we do not want to hear that and it will have no effect upon our mind when we come to the question of the sentence we have to pass"?
  I believe that this is a safeguard, and it is because this Clause appears in the Bill, because the age is raised from 8 to 10 and because I believe that it would be wrong for the House to take the respon-
  1322
  sibility of removing the protection, which undoubtedly would be removed if we followed the Ingleby Committee's Report, that I suggest that the Government are right in their decision not to introduce into the Bill that part of the Ingleby Committee's Report which suggests that all children under the age of 12 should be considered as having no criminal responsibility.
  6.40 p.m.
  Mr. Ede: Like every other hon. Member who has addressed the House on this Bill, I welcome it. I listened with great attention to what the hon. and learned Member for Billericay (Mr. Gardner) said. I would say to him that I have had my own misgivings about the age below which criminal responsibility should not be expected of a child. The curious thing is that whereas the hon. and learned Member appears to have been influenced one way by paragraph 66 of the Report, that was one of the paragraphs that persuaded me that the age of 12 is about right. I approach this from another angle which brings me to the same conclusion.
  An ordinary child's education is now divided into three progressive stages, primary, secondary and beyond. Primary is up to about 11 or 12 years of age and beyond that age the child moves forward into a new educational atmosphere in which it has to face new responsibilities. I think that it is a good thing to make the changes in a child's life wherever possible simultaneously. That is why on occasion I have advocated putting the age of 15 into a Bill for certain responsibilities rather than the age of 14 because compulsory attendance at school now ends at 15, and beyond that age a young person may have to encounter further responsibilities.
  Inasmuch as a child leaves the primary school where he is a child, speaks as a child and is taught as a child and moves to the secondary school where he is supposed to be able educationally to carry further responsibilities than he was expected to do in the primary school. I think it is a good thing to make that the age, if we are to make any age at all higher than 8. I know that some people advocate raising the age to 15, which is the end of compulsory attendance at school. Having taught a good many boys in my time, I am quite sure

  1323
  that well before the age of 14 or 15, whether they have a sense of criminal responsibility or not, they can be very awkward indeed. I should not like to have to say how far some of their decisions are non-criminal and others are not, if we used the word in the broad sense which I am sure the hon. and learned Member was using it.
  I congratulate those promoting the Bill on the form of it. Never before have I seen an Explanatory Memorandum as full as this. It was quite easy to follow the argument of the Joint Under-Secretary of State in introducing the Bill by merely picking up in the Explanatory Memorandum the gist of the Clause he was explaining. It is a great advantage to the House when discussing a long Measure of this kind which covers a wide range of new Clauses to have it set out in this clear way, and I thank the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for giving us this assistance.
  I also welcome the Ingleby Report and this effort at implementing some of it. Here again, in the pages referring to the contents, we have set out an analysis of the Report which enables one to pick up the various points that are raised, and on this most contentious point of all about the age of criminal responsibility I think that paragraphs 78 to 82, 93, and those in the 200s which deal with this matter admirably, enable one to get the whole argument before one and see where it is leading. I sincerely hope that we shall be able to persuade the right hon. Gentleman that it would be a good thing to follow the recommendation of the Ingleby Report in this respect, and I say that after having had some misgivings which in the main have been removed by the arguments set out in the Ingleby Report.
  I draw the attention of the right hon. Gentleman to the fact that there were seven justices of the peace on the Ingleby Committee, and those who served in this House when Lord Ingleby was Under-Secretary at the Home Office feel that here we have guidance from people who are not likely to be deceived into taking any unnecessarily soft line with regard to this matter, and I sincerely hope that we shall be able to get the Bill passed in its improved state, that is, with the Amend-
  1324
  ments made by certain noble Friends of mine in another place.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, South-East (Miss Bacon) made some fun of the age of certain managers of approved schools, and most pointedly looked at me while she was doing it. I am not a manager of an approved school, I have never been one and I have no intention of becoming one, but I see that the Bill falls back on an age for the introduction of which into this kind of legislation I am responsible.
  When in 1948 we were discussing the age of magistrates, everybody said that a good many of them were too old. We had quite a serious discussion on what the age should be. I hope that I am doing nothing in breach of the Official Secrets Act if I tell the House exactly how we arrived at the age of 75.
  My noble Friend Lord Jowitt said that if we made the age 65 he would not be able to staff the benches in the country, but if we made it 70 he would be able to. One bright lad at the Cabinet said, "Well, whatever we put in, the House will want to reduce it, so if you want to get 70 I suggest you put in 75 and then let the Home Secretary get up after a couple of hours' debate in Committee and say that he recognises the feeling of a Committee and will accept 70." So we put 75 into the Bill. What happened? There are one or two people here now who were here then. My hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Scotland (Mr. Logan), one of the few hon. Members who is older than I, and another of my hon. Friends who then represented Rossendale, said that they were both over 75 and that if this came into operation they would find in their retirement that what they had most hoped to do would be denied them. The House took such compassion on them that we decided on 75. The old trick to get the age of 70 just did not work.
  It is desirable that a limit should be fixed to the age of managers of approved schools, because if they come into contact with the actual inmates of the schools it is highly desirable that they should not appear to be so remote from juvenile life as persons of that age seem to be.
  In many respects this Bill builds on the Children Act, 1948, and, in fact, imposes certain duties on the children's

  1325
  committee created by that Act. There are still some friends of mine who will not forgive me for having insisted on a children's committee. This provision was put into the 1948 Act for three years, after which it was to be reviewed. When the three years expired, no one suggested that the work should be transferred to any other committee or that the children's committee should be abolished, and I regard it as a sign of the success of what was done that this Bill now relies on the children's committee to carry out most of the duties that will fall on the local authority under the Bill.
  I should like to read a letter which I have received from the County Councils Association on the matter. The Secretary says:
  "I think it would be appropriate to let you have a brief note about the Association's general views on the Bill prior to its coming up for the Second Reading in the House this week.
  Naturally, we have been waiting with some impatience for the Government to introduce legislation on the recommendations of the Ingleby Report; we were beginning to despair of the Bateson Report! Therefore, on both counts the Association warmly welcomed the advent of the Bill…The present position, so far as we are concerned, can be summed up as follows:—

  1. As already indicated, we are strongly in favour of the additional powers proposed to be given to local authorities, which will make it much easier for them to prevent the need for children to be taken into care, and, in a variety of minor ways (Clauses 15 (2) and 55 are obvious examples) to treat children in whose welfare they are particularly interested, according to their individual needs and as a good parent can be expected to treat them. We think this principle which runs throughout the Bill, is at the heart of what local authorities have to give to the community in this essentially personal service. We are confident that all our members will gladly accept and carry out their extended duties and powers.

  2. We agree that the Bill has been greatly improved during its passage through the House of Lords and we would readily acknowledge that the Government and the Department have been most assiduous both in seeking the Association's views and advice and in paying regard to them. We think we have already contributed much to the Bill and we welcomed Lord Jellicoe's undertaking in the House of Lords that the Government would be giving further consideration to a number of points, in some of which we are particularly interested. (The Department have, in fact, arranged a further meeting with officers of the Association, the Association of Municipal Corporations and the London County Council on Thursday next, at which a long list of points are up for discussion.)

  3. We are, therefore, hopeful that we shall be able to help in improving the Bill still more. We have not yet achieved satisfaction
  1326
  on all our points and we shall probably be taking further action when the Bill reaches Committee stage."

  Then it deals with the problem of the age of criminal responsibility. I think it would be helpful if I read its views to the House. It says:
  "The Association do not think that the Government has yet gone far enough. In our evidence to the Ingleby Committee we recommended that the age when it should be conclusively presumed that a child cannot be guilty of an offence should be raised from under eight years to below the upper limit of the compulsory school age, which is fifteen. The Association's representatives who gave oral evidence before the Committee referred to the rebuttable presumption of innocence for children between the ages of eight and fourteen and to the wider understanding in recent years of the psychological and environmental factors contributing to delinquency in children The Association did not suggest that children of, say, thirteen, fourteen and fifteen did not know right from wrong; their view was that children of those ages and younger should not be treated as criminals if they did wrong. That was why they suggested they should be dealt with outside the criminal code. Training and education rather than punishment was needed."
  I welcome the reference made by my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, South-East to the problem of girls in approved schools. For many years I have been perturbed at the number of girls who have first been brought before the courts as being in need of care and protection and have then seemed to move into approved schools as if, in some way, they had been delinquents themselves. As a rule, the girl who is sent to an approved school as being in need of care and protection has been more sinned against than sinning. Frequently there has been an absence of parental sympathy and advice. When we were discussing the Criminal Justice Bill I recollect my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, South-East raising this point on several occasions. I do not want to see girls—especially those who have committed no offences, and have had no findings of guilt recorded against them—drifting in some way into approved schools and becoming associated with girls who are there because they have been before the courts and have had findings of guilt recorded against them, and have been sent to the approved schools for that reason. I hope that in the arrangements that are made from now on it will be possible to ensure that not so many girls will be

  1327
  unfortunate enough to find themselves in that position.
  I had an interview with some approved school teachers who raised with me a point concerning Clause 8. It was a point that I welcomed, but which they regarded with some apprehension. The Clause states:
  "The school to which a person is to be sent in pursuance of an approved school order shall not be specified in the order; but the order shall be authority for his detention in any approved school and the school in which he is to be detained at any time shall be determined by the Secretary of State."
  As persons who have been working for some time under the Home Office those teachers quite reasonably regard the Home Secretary as a person who has many duties to discharge, and they wonder where, in his order of priorities, he places the question of the determination of the approved school to which a child is to go.
  I imagine that there has been no change in this respect from the existing practice, and, that the responsibility is that of the Secretary of State. He will be advised by people who are skilled and practised in this matter. I would not be at all surprised if, on occasion, a child's name is put on the list and that child is dispatched to an approved school two or three days before the list reaches the Home Secretary's table. But I am sure that he can assure me that the provision contained in Clause 8 will not mean that there will be any delay in dealing with the allocation of a child—after it has been observed in the classifying school—to the school which it is to attend.
  We had some very unpleasant experiences at the Carlton House Approved School, as a result of which an inquiry was held by Mr. Durand, who made a number of recommendations, one of which was that a guide should be issued to approved schools setting out the Home Secretary's views about the way in which such schools should be conducted. Has that guide yet been issued? Have the other recommendations contained in that Report been carried into effect? When I was Home Secretary I had to deal with a similar episode, in which, unfortunately, a young assistant master in one of these schools was shot by boys who were lying in wait not for
  1328
  him but for the headmaster. This young man happened to come along first, and he was shot.
  A youth who is going to an approved school is told, "If you behave yourself and are co-operative, you may be released on licence". In the school to which I have just alluded there was a youth who was so helpful and co-operative that he had really become an unsalaried member of the staff. In fact, he was so valuable that it would have caused some difficulty in the school if he had been released on licence. So he was retained. He was never recommended for release on licence.
  Children have very heterodox views on law. If a silly rule is made which they do not regard as meeting the requirements of the situation, no child in school will regard anybody else as being really disobedient if he fails to carry out that rule. All the docile children who accept the rule admire those who have the pluck to resist what they regard as a stupid rule.
  A child has a wonderful sense of natural justice, and whoever outrages that sense of justice inflicts considerable harm on the child in its future relations with any community in which it may find itself. It is essential, therefore, that the managers of approved schools should regard this duty of licensing as a heavy charge on their consciences.
  A group of forty, fifty or sixty boys living together very soon acquire their own standards which they apply to the conduct of those associated with them. If they see that there is a boy in the position of the one to whom I referred, a boy who is being helpful and co-operative and assisting to run the show to the advantage of everyone, and who because of that is deprived of his licence, seeds of rebellion are implanted in their minds and soon those seeds will begin to grow.
  The hon. and learned Member for Billericay and my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Stoke Newington and Hackney, North (Mr. Weitzman) alluded to the alarming figures relating to the problem which we are attempting to tackle by the provisions in this Bill. Whether duties as school managers are undertaken voluntarily or the people concerned are employed in the schools, the success or failure of the provisions in this Bill regarding approved schools will depend on the way in which those duties are discharged in respect of the boys and girls that the school managers have under their care.

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  I appreciate that the staffs of these schools have a high sense of their responsibility. By means of the provisions in this Bill we seek to provide wider opportunities for them and for the local authorities to prevent problems from arising rather than having to cure problems which may arise. Anything which can be done to save the break-up of a family, or provide new inspiration for its members to live together, is eminently worth while. There are mothers who are not criminal but merely feckless. No matter what domestic science lessons they may have received at school, it has left no impression upon them when it comes to providing a home for three or four children.
  I recall arrangements being made with the Salvation Army in respect of a home which the Army had at Plymouth, called the Mayflower Home, where such feckless women might be taken—sometimes with their children—and given an opportunity to learn how to make the sort of home in which their children might obtain a sense of security and enjoy reasonable happiness. I should far prefer to see an experiment of that kind multiplied than that homes be broken up and children taken from their parents. Children in such circumstances get into a false relationship. Their parents are not really bad but unfortunate, because their temperaments do not enable them to build up the kind of home which will be good for their children.
  This state of affairs presents a very human problem. We are dealing with families whose sense of security may be shattered by the widest possible range of different incidents. I hope that the provisions in this Bill will be operated in a manner which will prevent families from breaking up and that homes may be provided which will be comfortable places for the children. I hope that we may be able to secure that their homes are places where they may find loving care and experience a sense of security which will enable them to face the childish troubles which may confront them which, to them, may prove severe. I hope that they will be able to overcome the difficulties which so often make family life a much different thing than the source of strength that it ought to be.
  7.16 p.m.
  Dame Edith Pitt: I wish to begin where the right hon. Member for South Shields (Mr. Ede) ended. Anything which we can do to prevent the break-up of family life is well worth doing, and for that reason I add my welcome to the general welcome which has been given to the proposals in the Bill which are designed to maintain family life.
  I agree with the right hon. Member for South Shields that this Bill follows on the Children Act of 1948. For that reason I wish particularly to address myself to the provisions in Clause 1, which, as was said by the hon. Lady the Member for Leeds, South-East (Miss Bacon)—and I agree—is the heart of the Bill. I have had some experience which I can contribute, because I was a member of a committee which dealt with children from the time when it was first established in 1948. I was a member because I belonged to the local authority in my native City of Birmingham.
  Indeed, I was associated with the matter earlier than 1948, because Birmingham set up an interim committee in 1947 so that the authority could be ready to discharge the obligations imposed upon it when the Act came into force. I believe that the 1948 Act was a great step forward in the provisions made for caring for and helping children and for bringing under one umbrella the various services which were then available, though not so fully effective as they could become.
  The operation of the Children Act improved the quality of the care given to children and the supervision of children who were fostered out. That, indeed, was the beginning of the story. It was because a foster child was cruelly ill-treated, and died as a result, that the Curtis Committee was set up. Following the Report of that Committee, the Children Act was passed. Even though the quality of care given by children departments throughout the country is very good and children are provided with comfortable homes and do not want for warm clothes, good food and all the things which other children have, there is still, for them, one thing which is lacking. It is a sense of belonging.
  When I was more active in this work, which I had to give up when I became

  1331
  a Member of Parliament, we frequently arranged parties for the children with good friends in Birmingham and we found people to act as "uncles" and "aunts". We always found that a child would "mop up" all the food which was provided and take a little more "For me lunch", or take a little gift for itself. They had so little that was their own. That is why I stress that, good though the care of a substitute home provided by the local authority may be, anything we can do to keep the child in its own home with its real parents is far better.
  Even though the home may be deficient in many respects, in that it may be very dirty and inadequately furnished, so long as the child is really loved and cared for there, it is preferable to a substitute home provided by the local authority. The Children Act still left gaps, some of which the Bill will fill. I think of one in particular. Those of us who worked in the children department in Birmingham felt that some of the children who did not come into care and, therefore, were not the responsibility of the local authority had needs which no statutory body could fill. There were children in their own homes who, for one reason or another, lack of money, or a feckless parent, to which the right hon. Member referred, never stood much chance of getting a holiday or a present at Christmas, and who, when they started work, found that there was no money to buy the tools which they required.
  So some of us set up a charitable organisation called the Friends of the Children Benevolent Society. I still have the very great pleasure of being a subscribing member and a trustee. Some quiet, but very good, work is done in that direction. I am not suggesting that that particular piece of work is anything which one could include in a Bill and lay down by Statute. It is work which is still best done by the impulse of the human heart to care for others, and best done by a small voluntary organisation, but, because I can instance that as a gap which was not catered for by the Children Act, I think that there are others. I am sure that Clause I of the Bill, with its emphasis on advice, guidance and assistance, and even in exceptional circumstances making cash available to families, will help to fill some of the gaps and
  1332
  provide a service which will enable children to be kept and maintained in their own homes rather than coming into care.
  On the practical side, that has advantages. I do not know whether the right hon. Member for South Shields would agree, but when the 1948 Act came into operation the number of children Who come into care increased steadily in the early years because, I regret to say, a number of families found in it a way of evading their responsibilities. They used to bring their children to the children department with all sorts of reasons why they, the parents, could no longer be responsible for them. We learned to get hard and tried to bring into operation all the other services of the local authority to prevent that stage where children themselves had to be accepted as being in need of care under the children department.
  This point ties up with the provisions in Clause 1. In many instances parents are not aware of the existing services which are available, either local authority services or voluntary organisation services. To the extent that Clause 1 provides for advice and guidance it may help in putting parents into touch with services which can help them and can prevent children eventually coming into care. I am not suggesting that in this development we ought to provide permanent props for families which are failing in some way. We ought to bolster them up for the time being and put them in touch with organisations which can help them, but the aim of it all ought to be to make the family independent and able to stand on its own feet.
  I had to read the Report of the debate in another place to find that this new power under Clause 1 would be exercised by the children departments of local authorities. That was confirmed today in the opening speech of my hon. Friend the Joint Under-Secretary of State. I think that this is right because children departments over the years have gained a great deal of experience which can be useful. I ask my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary to do his best to ensure that liaison is operated with the other services of the local authority because, in the first place, the report of a family in need of advice, or assistance, or cash, may come from

  1333
  the servant of another department of the local authority. I am thinking of the health visitor, or perhaps the psychiatric social worker, or even the midwife.
  A particular case was brought to me by a midwife who reported a family where she thought some action needed to be taken by someone. She had attended a confinement and was appalled to find that the husband was a work-shy and a drunkard who ill-treated his wife and children. I think that she felt that she exceeded her authority in getting in touch with someone such as myself to see whether something could be done. Here is another reason for supporting the Bill. Local authorities have not been sure how far their powers extended. So I repeat to my right hon. Friend that I hope that he will ensure that there is liaison between the children department, which will operate the provisions of the Bill when it is enacted, and servants of other local authority departments.
  I think that the extra duties which will be laid on children departments will mean that they must strengthen their personnel. I should like to know from my right hon. Friend what action he is taking to do this. We must continue to improve the quality of people who work in children departments. I was very glad that my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary referred to the considerable expansion in child care training. I can assure the House that that is needed. Again harking back to 1948, children departments took on many people who had had no real training for this work. Many of them have now had years of experience and since then there has been considerable expansion and improvement in the quality, but we must have the right people to do this job, particularly the preventive work which the Bill envisages because here we are treading on rather delicate ground.
  I do not believe that any public authority ought to intervene or interfere in private family affairs unless it is really necessary and action is needed in the interests of members of the family. I am sure that my right hon. Friend is seized of this because my hon. Friend, in his opening speech, referred to the fact that it was not the intention to impose these services but to make them available where the need exists. This is the delicate balance. We should have the ser-
  1334
  vices available, but we must not intervene to a great extent in private family affairs.
  I also welcome subsection (2) of Clause I which enables the local authorities to use the services of voluntary bodies for the work that they are now being given to do. I pay tribute, as others have done, to the work already being done by voluntary bodies. I am sure that they are capable of continuing and expanding that work.
  I recall instances dealt with by the family services unit in Birmingham and some of the problem families with which it tried to deal in order to keep them going as a family unit. In one case a man could not get up in time to get to work in the mornings and therefore could not keep a job. The family services worker bought herself an extra powerful alarm clock and used to get up desperately early at the settlement and dash down to get the man to work. This answered the problem, and it prevented the need for the children going into care. I use this only to illustrate the importance which I attach to the contribution which voluntary organisations can make to this work.
  I urge that local authorities be reminded that they have power under the Children Act to co-opt to their children committees persons who are not members of the local authorities. This power is too little used from what I know of the work of the children departments, and it has perhaps been forgotten. The Act says that the children committees
  "may include persons specially qualified by reason of experience or training in matters relating to the functions of the committee, notwithstanding that they are not members of the local authority",
  and in this expansion of the work of children departments I should like people who can make a special contribution to be given their chance as members of children committees.
  I have deliberately confined myself to Clause 1, which is the point about which I know most, and I hesitate to trespass on the legal provisions, but I draw attention to the provision in Clause 30 to increase the fines in summary courts or jurisdiction from £25 to £100 in the case of cruelty to children. I agree with the comments made by my

  1335
  hon. Friend the Member for Billericay (Mr. Gardner) on the wisdom of doing this and I have considerable sympathy with the view which he advanced that not only ought the fines to be increased, but serious consideration ought to be given to the length of the prison sentence which might be an alternative to the fine.
  I am appalled at the cruelty to children which still goes on in this country, with its present high standard of living. I have long thought that we have not got quite the right sense of proportion. Our hearts ache for dumb animals which are ill-treated because we feel that they are inarticulate and unable to help themselves, but we tend to forget that there are equally dumb and inarticulate children who can be made to suffer the most severe punishment and cruelty by their natural parents. I shall never forget two cases with which I had to deal. One was a small boy, only about two years old, who had been inflicted with second-degree burns by his own mother. This came to light through the health visitor in the neighbourhood reporting it. When we investigated the case we discovered that the woman had three children and that for some unknown reason she hated this child. She was expecting another baby. We had to bring the social services into play to help this woman.
  Another case which I remember is of Sheila, a small girl about three years old, who had to be taken into care because her own mother ill-treated her so much. I spoke to her some four or five days after she had come into care because I attended a Christmas party at the residential nursery. The matron said to her, "Sheila, who gave you two black eyes?". The child replied, "My mummy threw me against the wall". Those are the sort of cases with which we have to deal.
  I am not sure that the answer is always either a fine or a prison sentence. The answer is often to bring into play these advisory services for which the Bill provides. But it is necessary to extend the services which are already available because we are dealing with children, and children must always be given the best chance that we can give them. I am not starry-eyed and I do not think that all children are angels; indeed, some of them
  1336
  can be the reverse. But they are young, and we have responsibility for them in Parliament just as parents have responsibility for them outside. If we can improve the machinery which is available to help parents give their children the happiness which they deserve, then it is right that we should do so, and it is for that reason that I welcome the Bill.
  7.35 p.m.
  Mr. Charles Mapp: I am in a great measure of agreement with the remarks made about cruelty by the hon. Lady the Member for Birmingham, Edgbaston (Dame Edith Pitt), and in any case I intend to return to that point during the few remarks which I shall make. The Bill has generally commended itself to the House, although on each side of the House there are reservations. I appreciated the moderate and responsible opening speech by the Minister, and I hope that I shall not be more critical about the Bill than my conscience feels that I ought to be.
  I have a feeling that the Ingleby Committee got itself bogged down on details. After some years on the bench and in the juvenile court and with some responsibility as a past chairman of such a court, I feel that the Ingleby Committee might have lifted its sights much higher. It might have said, in effect, that since 1933 we have been working our juvenile courts system—here and there with a change of furniture—based, as it were, on deterrents for children. I reached the opinion some years ago when I felt that the question of deterrents for children, though not for parents, is the wrong approach in juvenile courts, in particular, and I should have welcomed a new concept from the Ingleby Committee which should have indicated, in respect of children up to about 12 years of age, that the only yardstick which matters is not penalties but how we can get children back on the right road. The main preoccupation should be educational.
  I think somehow that the Bill is meeting the future in a half-hearted way. It accepts that children are mischievous. Of course, we are all mischievous. I want to differ from a comment made earlier that we should not take the view that children can be mischievous. I take the candid view that if a child cannot be mischievous there is something wrong and a doctor is required. Children are

  1337
  naturally mischievous. But while the Bill recognises that point, it still hankers after the assumption that young children can be criminals. I differ basically from that point of view. I think that the whole concept of the approach to children under the age of about 12 on that assumption is wrong, and I therefore feel that the Committee might have widened its approach on more imaginative lines.
  We are in 1963, 30 years since the principal Act was put together, and in those 30 years we have had a most revolutionary time, including war and all its effects on the minds of growing boys and girls. While the figures which we have been given from the Front Bench are serious and certainly something about which we should search our hearts, I am not one of those who believe that our boys and girls are going to the dogs. Let us be frank and admit that our yardstick of measurement and our recording of these incidents about boys and girls is far superior to when was a boy. Many things which my colleagues and I did in that era never became statistics. Society is now more statistic conscious. No magistrate now sitting in a juvenile court can deal with a little boy or girl who has pinched a comic, for example, without thinking whether thirty years ago such a case would have reached the courts. Yet I have had to deal with such cases, and I have said to myself, "That should never have come to a juvenile court". The panoply of the criminal law and the present court system is not the right way to deal with what I call schoolchildren offenders.
  I do not regard the machinery of juvenile courts in quite the same legalistic way as some hon. Members who have spoken do. Hundreds of girls and boys of various ages have appeared before me and, whatever the law may say about criminal responsibility, I have had doubts more often than not about whether the younger boys and girls before the court recognised, as I or any other adult would recognise, that they had committed what otherwise would be a criminal offence and committed it knowing what the criminal law would demand of them. I have felt throughout that they knew there was mischief. They knew that there was an extreme form of mischief, but I do
  1338
  not think that we should apply the panoply of the law in cases like that in 1963.
  The Ingleby Committee has been helpful in many ways. It had courage in saying frankly, after considering all the pros and cons, that twelve is about the right age to fix as a minimum for criminal responsibility. I myself would be prepared to accept the school-leaving age as the minimum age of criminal responsibility. Despite the fact that the Government have had second thoughts arising out of the debate in another place, I hope that the Home Secretary will give still further thought to this question. Most experienced people in the social services—probation officers whom I know; those who are dedicated to the job of reforming or rehabilitating boys and girls who nave stepped over the line—do not want the law to take them into its clutches at such an early age. They want them to be dealt with by some vehicle of education.
  I notice that Clause 1 contains this phrase:
  "giving assistance in kind or, in exceptional circumstances in cash".
  I do not know what the Minister has in mind. I am certain that every magistrate has met with circumstances, either in the Probation Service or on case work, when the official accountancy system—call it what you like—has been unable to provide the necessities wanted there and then to help a boy or a girl. I hope that the Home Secretary, after making all the reservations which will be necessary, will arrange that finances will be available with proper accountability. The appropriate officers should be given some freedom to act in special cases.
  The question of cruelty is dealt with in Clause 30. The Clause deals with it in a very limited degree. I may be unusual, but I believe that in our anxiety to recover boys and girls who have gone off on the wrong path or who have been neglected we should have real deterrents so that we can deal with the parents if there are circumstances in which one or both parents have wilfully resigned their responsibility. The public is uneasy. I myself am uneasy about dealing in a reformative way with a child who has

  1339
  never had a chance, a child who physically is partially starved, a child who mentally has no hope and no help at home. Are we in danger of having better legislation and better administration to secure the welfare of animals than we have to secure the welfare of children? I do not want to be cynical. The public conscience has alerted itself much faster than many think. The social conscience is saying that we do not want to deal with unfortunate boys and girls in a criminal way but that we cannot afford to let parents who callously resign their responsibilities get away with it in a way which most people would regard as unfair to society.
  Clause 2 contains this definition:
  "A child or young person is in need of care, protection or control within the meaning of this Act if—"
  Subsection (1) (b) and paragraphs (a) to (e) of subsection (2) contain the conditions which must operate before a child or young person can be deemed to come within the ambit of the Clause.
  The three principles should be reversed. May I make my point abundantly clear? The first and overwhelming principle, clear and without any ambiguity, should be that such a person is in need of care, protection or control if—
  "he is not receiving such care, protection and guidance as a good parent may reasonably be expected to give."
  I am thus removing those words from where they now stand in the Bill so that they become an operative and decisive definition and are not hinged to some earlier condition. I regard this as the vital pillar. If a child is not receiving the kind of parental care and guardianship that a good parent should give, I believe that the social services should intervene.
  I was distressed when the Joint Under-Secretary spoke earlier about the duties of local authorities and children's committees, because he was careful not to say that there was any obligation on the part of the parents to receive guidance. There may be a gap in the Bill in this connection, because while I am not legally minded it seems wrong that one should lay an obligation on a local authority to initiate inquiries and be constructive if, the authority having done that, the parents can say, "I do
  1340
  not want that guidance; I do not want you to interfere". We can discuss this in Committee, and I hope that if this sort of gap exists the Home Secretary will do something about it.
  In view of the suggestions which I and other hon. Members have put forward, I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will be prepared to have second thoughts on certain Clauses in Committee, not from a politician's point of view—for in essence this is not a matter for political argument—but from the point of view of those who are directly concerned with this matter and who are trying to save children and young people from going the wrong way. I know that I can speak for all those directly concerned with this subject when I say that we are always fully prepared, and indeed, value, the guidance we get from trained workers and others.
  While I give the Bill my blessing, I must admit that there are omissions. I regret that it is based on being a gradual improvement instead of representing an enlightened march forward. Nevertheless, I welcome the Bill and hope that in Committee we can discuss the many suggestions put forward today.
  7.52 p.m.
  Sir Richard Thompson: Like all hon. Members, I give the Bill a warm welcome. It would certainly be unfair to other hon. Members should I attempt to deal with its 61 Clauses at any length at this stage. I will, therefore, confine my brief intervention to one quite narrow point arising out of Clause 52—the Clause which strengthens the existing law regarding the publication of matter identifying children under 17 concerned in court proceedings.
  The Clause does this in three ways. It extends the automatic restriction on juvenile court proceedings in a juvenile court. It extends it by requiring that the discretion of the court to impose restrictions on publicity about a child under 17 should extend to every case in which a child under that age appears in court other than a juvenile court, and, most important in my view, it extends these restrictions to sound broadcasting and television. All this is commendable and overdue.
  However, does my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary think that the Clause

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  goes far enough? I have in mind the kind of case where publicity is given in the Press, before an arrest, of the name and address of a person under 17 who has been the victim of a sexual assault. While this sort of offence is rare, it does occur and when it occurs it causes the most intense grief and distress not only to the victim, but to the unfortunate parents as well. I wonder, therefore, whether we can do something in the Bill to either prohibit such publicity effectively or, at least, make it less likely.
  I am not putting a hypothetical case to explain my argument. A year ago in Croydon, in the constituency next door to mine, we had a very bad case of an assault on a 12-year-old girl. Prior to court proceedings a London evening newspaper published a report about the case, giving the girl's name and address. This action defeated the whole object of the law; and it would equally defeat the objects expressed in Clause 52, for it could still happen. Although one may say that it does not happen often, I repeat that the intense grief and distress it causes is something about which we should think most seriously.
  The Croydon Education Committee was concerned about the case and felt—and I agreed with the Committee—that some statutory prohibition should be made to prevent the Press publishing the name and address of the victim before an arrest is made when there are reasonable grounds for knowing that the victim of the assault is under 17. So, at that time, I took the matter up with the Home Office—with my right hon. Friend's predecessor—and the reply I received, while on the face of it reasonable, led me to wonder whether it went far enough.
  The then Home Secretary told me, in effect, that the Press was usually discreet and sensible and played the game in cases of that kind. I do not dispute that, but it is the occasional blackleg whom I am after. The second part of the reply I received from the then Home Secretary was to the effect that there might be a situation in which early identification might help in the apprehension of the offender. I appreciate that one must weigh that consideration in the balance when considering what should be done.
  In these days, when so much that is sensational, violent and sordid is pub-
  1342
  lished, the temptation to publish details of this kind is great. I do not know whether or not this sort of thing can be prevented by legislation and I imagine that if one tried to do so one would meet all sorts of arguments concerning the freedom of the Press. One can imagine some high-falutin' arguments against such legislation. However, I hope that my right hon. Friend will consider this matter carefully because it would be a great shame if the wise and sensible provisions of Clause 52 were to be frustrated by this kind of action happening again.
  I said at the outset that my intervention would be brief. The point I have made is the one most troubling to me. I commend its consideration to my right hon. Friend and hope that we may return to it in Committee.
  7.59 p.m.
  Mr. Alan Fitch: In taking part in a debate such as this, one is conscious of the fact that there is no obvious solution to the problems we have been discussing; the young offender, the maladjusted, the educationally subnormal and the habitual school absentee.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, South-East (Miss Bacon) suggested that many European countries were ahead of us in their researches into juvenile crime. That may be because we have in this country a puritan tradition which, in the past, has laid great emphasis on punishment and, in my view, not enough emphasis on reformation. In discussing a Bill of this nature, therefore, it would be quite wrong of me to be in any way dogmatic, because the problems are so complicated and vast and we know so little about them.
  The first part of the Bill is based partly on some of the recommendations of the Ingleby Committee which was set up in 1956 and reported in 1960. I regret that a Committee which could sit for as long as four years should produce such a disappointing report, in the sense that there are no really radical proposals in it, unless the proposal to raise the age of criminal responsibility from eight to twelve years is regarded as radical. The Report was disappointing, but I cannot say that the Bill is very much better. It would be wrong to call it a bad Bill, but I would call it an uninspiring Bill.

  1343
  The last comparable Bill was introduced fifteen years ago, in 1948, and it seems strange that after fifteen very eventful years the Government cannot produce a better Measure. They do not seem to have taken full advantage of the opportunity for a radical assessment of the problems affecting children and young persons.
  Clause 1, which has been the subject of a great deal of discussion and which is based on the Ingleby's Committee's recommendation, gives powers to local authorities to do something, but at the moment children's welfare at local authority level seems to be split up a great deal. It comes under the health committee, the children's committee, and the education committee, and co-ordination has been lacking between statutory and voluntary bodies. In some cases there has even been overlapping.
  If I may digress for a moment, I feel the same thing about after-care. We need a central after-care association, authority or unit which will deal with the problems of the after-care of those from 8 years to 80. In many respects, the same thing applies to these cases. We need a central unit under local government which will deal with all the problems appertaining to children and young people.
  In discussing this Clause, we must ask ourselves what the practical results would be. Is it the Government's intention to advise local authorities to work through the children's committee's? I gather from the Joint Under-Secretary of State that that is so. If it is, what form of organisation will this take? Will it be a family service and advice bureau which will co-ordinate the work of all local authority committees dealing with children?
  I should like to see an extension of the hostel system for maladjusted children. I know that this is not the direct responsibility of the Home Office but the responsibility of the Ministry of Education through local education committees. It is a very useful work. At the moment, there are about fifty hostels—and I am not referring to schools—which seem to be run on lines which will bring some results. In dealing with maladjusted children one is not dealing in the main with those who have any kind of
  1344
  criminal record. One is dealing with children who have a potential criminal record. I have seen one or two of these hostels and they seem to be the ideal institution for this type of person.
  Voluntary work has been mentioned in the debate. The Ingleby Report suggested that although voluntary workers and organisations did excellent jobs the initiative should come from the local authorities and the police. I think the Committee was right. Nobody wants to decry the work of volunteers or of voluntary organisations. In many cases it is extremely good, but it depends on the sort of work that these people volunteer to do. There is no doubt that this type of highly specialised work, dealing with maladjusted, subnormal or abnormal children, is not work for volunteers but one for the trained social worker. In many cases, quite unwittingly and with the best intentions, volunteer workers have got in the way of people who are better trained and better able to do the job.
  I have spoken in the last two or three days to a senior probation officer about this problem. He said that when would-be recruits appeared before him he asked whether they could stick at a case even if they had no results and even if the person began to bore them. Some voluntary workers tend to have great enthusiasm for a short period but often they lose some of their enthusiasm eventually with the result that a case may well go by default.
  I think that the Under-Secretary was quoting the Ingleby Report when he said that we must have a door at which to knock. I agree that there should be one door and not ten or a dozen. In other words, if the Clause is to bring practical results it must mean setting up a unit which will co-ordinate all the work so that somebody who is having difficulty with a child about school attendance, somebody with a maladjusted child, and somebody with a child in need of care and protection can all knock at the same door though there may be different departments inside the building.
  I welcome Clause 3. It improves the method by which parents can take action. It puts the problem the other way round. It still admits the failure of the parents whether they go directly to the courts or to a local authority. It is an admission of failure, but the Under-Secretary was

  1345
  quite right in saying that it was not such an obvious admission. The Clause gives the parent some loophole so that there is no direct antagonism between parent and child. At least, the Clause is not likely to make worse any existing antagonism. It will encourage some parents who would not have taken action under the old scheme to take action under the provisions of the Bill.
  Much has been said about the age of criminal responsibility. I do not want to argue about this at any great length because other Members who have spoken have done so far more competently and with far more knowledge than I. I am not a lawyer, anyhow. I am a former miner, and it would be impudent of me to argue in legal terms which I do not understand. However, I wish to make this comment. The Ingleby Report suggests 12 as about the right age. The Government suggest 10 years of age. I suggest 13—not that I want to be awkward, but for the reason which has been advocated by my right hon. Friend the Member for South Shields (Mr. Ede). If that age were adopted, the whole primary stream in our educational system would be outside the age of criminal responsibility. I think that is a suitable age.
  I also welcome Clause 16 (2) by which any offence committed under the age of 14 is not to be taken into account when a person over the age of 21 appears before a court charged with an offence. I hope this provision will help the bench to take a more balanced view. It has been suggested this afternoon that the bench would discount any juvenile crimes. But would it?—Not necessarily. When one is hearing a case—and I am a magistrate, although I am not on the juvenile bench—one is bound to be influenced by any sort of record when determining sentence. One's mind is subconsciously affected when one hears a long string of convictions against a person, even though he was very young at the time that he committed the offences. I therefore think that this is a very good move.
  There are one or two omissions from the Bill. I refer to the sort of things which, if included, would make the Bill more radical and would bring it more up to date. One such factor is that the maximum age for instituting proceedings in a juvenile court should be raised
  1346
  from 16-plus as it is now to 17-plus. This would not be departing from any kind of principle. The fit person order is effective up to the age of 18. The Youth Employment Service provides for persons up to the age of 18. Conscription usually starts at the age of 18, and many of our young people enter universities and training colleges at 18.
  I am not so sure that the time has not come when the Government ought to consider some sort of training course for magistrates, particularly juvenile court magistrates. I am a magistrate and I must admit that at times I have felt in need of some kind of training. I do not mean that magistrates should be sent to college for a year or anything like that—that would be impracticable—but I suggest that there should be at least a fortnight's or a month's training at some Home Office college set aside for the purpose, because I am sure that magistrates in adult and juvenile courts are in need of some kind of training.
  Reference has been made by my hon. Friend the Member for Widnes (Mr. MacColl) in an intervention to the Fabian pamphlet published in December, 1962, containing some interesting proposals. I have no doubt that the Home Secretary and the Under-Secretary have seen it, and should like them to look at it again. There is an interesting proposal about juvenile courts by Mary Stewart. Briefly, the proposal is that there should be two types of courts, a juvenile court for those between 13 and 17 years of age for indictable offences, and a welfare court dealing with non-indictable offences for all ages up to 17-plus. If we could make this sort of division, we would probably have more satisfactory results. Anyway, the experiment is worth trying.
  The second part of the Bill is concerned with recommendations based on the Bateson Committee. That Committee sat thirteen years ago, and no one can say that the Government have been unduly hurried to push legislation through. It is certainly time that something was done. I have no particular quarrel with Part II of the Bill. Clause 32 changes the times at which a juvenile may be employed from 6 a.m. to 7 a.m. till 7 p.m., and this is a very good idea.
  Coming to Schedule 3, I notice reference to two additional sections in the Education Act, 1944, dealing with school attendance. This matter ought to be

  1347
  dealt with, for it is worrying local authorities because of the present time lag. I know of one case—and there may be many more—where action was taken as long as three months ago, and the case is only now coming into the courts. There has been a tremendous lapse of time, and in that time the reason why the person was originally summoned has almost been forgotten. That is far too long for these matters to be hanging about.
  I am not enthusiastic about the Bill. I think it is heading in the right direction, but somewhat at a snail's pace. The Government have missed a golden opportunity to introduce some really radical measures. I hope that when we bring forward some new Clauses in Committee the Government will not use their massive majority to throw them out but will consider them on their merits.
  Certainly more money must be spent on research. This is extremely important, because without research on which to base our facts we are, in some circumstances, experimenting in the dark. I welcome the Bill, but I wish that I could do so with more enthusiasm.
  8.18 p.m.
  Mr. John Farr: I wish to join with most hon. Members on both sides of the House in welcoming the Bill. So far we have had a really interesting discussion, and I feel privileged to have listened to the right hon. Member for South Shields (Mr. Ede) who has drawn on his great knowledge and fund of experience as a past Home Secretary. No less have I enjoyed listening to my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Edgbaston (Dame Edith Pitt) who speaks with a great deal of experience on the subject of child care.
  The hon. Member for Wigan (Mr. Fitch) made several interesting suggestions, particularly when he referred to four points on which he would like some alteration to be made. He included in his suggestions the better training of magistrates, and mentioned a four-week training course. I share his view that magistrates especially the younger ones, need some training, but it is impracticable to suggest that they could spare four weeks of their time because most of them are busy men employed in industry and trade.
  1348
  They could not spare four weeks to go to a training college, perhaps some distance from their homes. I think that training should be given to them, but I suggest that the best way would be for them to be more fully briefed both orally and in writing than they are now. Then the average new magistrate who had his wits about him would listen quietly for a bit on the bench, being guided by his chairman who would generally be a man of great experience, and in this way he would more easily fit himself to take his proper place on the bench.
  I join with those on both sides who have given a general welcome to the Bill. I refer in particular to Clause 27, to which the hon. and learned Member for Stoke Newington and Hackney, North (Mr. Weitzman) directed attention. I join with him in welcoming the provision that a child of 13 should have to give only written evidence when this type of offence comes up for consideration. I welcome this provision, but I, too, have a suggestion to make. It is harrowing and really almost impossible for a child to be required to give oral evidence during such a hearing, and I should like our young persons legislation to go further and make it possible for children under 13 to be required to give only written evidence in divorce proceedings also. When a child is asked to give oral evidence in court where divorce proceedings between its parents are in issue, this may well be an experience which will mark the child for life even more than that to which Clause 27 relates.
  In welcoming the Bill, I would remind the House that over the past few years, especially since the war, a great deal of thought and attention has been given to juvenile care. To mention some of the major inquiries and Measures which have been undertaken, as far back as 1933 there was the Children and Young Persons Act. This was followed by the Children and Young Persons (Scotland) Act, 1937. In 1946, there was the Curtis Report, followed by the Children Act, 1948 the Bateson Committee's Report in 1950 and the Children Act, 1958. The Ingleby Committee reported in 1960, and the Criminal Justice Act, 1961, was based in part upon its Report. Now, we have before us the present Bill. Enormous attention and countless hours of work have been devoted to the various

  1349
  Measures and Reports which I have mentioned. In general, the trend throughout has been towards a more sophisticated and enlightened treatment in dealing with juveniles or young people who go off the rails.
  My hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State referred to some really alarming statistics, and his examples went back to 1938. He showed what a vast increase there had been in juvenile crime since then. I have looked at some more recent stastistics which show that during the past ten years juvenile crime has been increasing even more rapidly than adult crime in the same period. For instance, since 1951, juvenile crime has increased by 58 per cent., whereas adult crime has increased by about 47 per cent. In 1951, for all offences, the number of juveniles found guilty was 75,000. In 1961 the number was 120,000. In particular, the number of juveniles found guilty of offences of violence against the person has multiplied since 1951 by more than five times.
  On the one hand, we have this wonderful display of legislation and Reports containing the fruits of the labour of many hundreds of people. On the other hand, we have the alarming record of statistics during the past few years showing that there has been and still is a most serious increase in juvenile delinquency. It seems to me, as it must seem to anyone, that something is going wrong. I feel that the sophisticated and enlightened treatment which has been accorded to the problems of juvenile delinquency during the past few years should have been, and should now be, coupled with some form of physical deterrence. I shall not go back over what has been said in some of the speeches on this subject in the past, but I put the matter in this way. In my view, the minds of young people are extremely simple. Generally, as they grow up to adulthood, they find great difficulty in comprehending much of the world in which they live. They do not understand, and many of them rebel. I am certain that if magistrates once again have power in really bad cases to order the use of the birch—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."]—there would be a big decline in the present tragic and alarming list of offences committed.
  Mrs. Slater: Would the hon. Gentleman use it on his own children?
  Mr. Farr: I am referring only to cases of really bad violence. Knowing very well the feelings of many hon. Members here, I should not express this view tonight without having in mind one or two examples of which I have close knowledge. In my own constituency, old ladies have been robbed by thugs and Teddy boys of 16 and 17, being knocked senseless by their assailants, their handbags stolen, and so on. This sort of thing has happened on repeated occasions.
  These Teddy boys and thugs may have minds, but they are very simple and dull minds. However, they do without a shadow of doubt understand and fear physical deterrence. I suggest that the inclusion of such a provision in the Bill for use in very extreme cases of the type I have in mind would be of value. I accord a general welcome to the Bill. I regard it as a fine Measure and I hope that it will have a speedy passage through the House.
  8.28 p.m.
  Mr. William Hannan: It is most unfortunate, in my view, that the speech of the hon. Member for Harborough (Mr. Farr) should have marred what has otherwise been a very good and successful debate. I am appalled that the hon. Member should, in 1963, while welcoming the Bill say that it does not go far enough because it does not include physical punishment for some young people.
  I shall not go over all the arguments which have been developed about this matter. Perhaps it is sufficient to remind the hon. Gentleman that he ought to examine the statistics more closely. None of us has any time for the young thugs to whom he refers. None of us would ever condone their actions. I am not here to make excuses for them, but if the hon. Gentleman examines the statistics which he has given he will find that many offences of this type are committed by the same person—in other words, he repeats the offence. In addition, of all the thousands of offences, there is about one in a thousand of that type. That is one too many, but we should try to get the matter in proportion. We now have a new and up-to-date method of

  1351
  arriving at statistics. There are now more instruments defining what offences are. There are now more offences for which young people can be charged. Police methods are more up to date, and many more people are being discovered and brought to the courts than before.
  The hon. Member for Harborough indicated that many of these people were simple-minded. The job of Parliament is to try to provide means by which they can get over their difficulties. Unless we understand their problems, we shall have a repetition of the circumstances to Which the hon. Gentleman referred. I am on the side of the vast majority of the 10 million or 12 million people whom the Bill covers. They are good-living young Citizens and very keen to learn. Musical appreciation classes and concerts are better attended .by young people these days than they have been for some years. No section of the community resents the transgressions of the young people against society more than the young people themselves. They are very angry about this.
  Mr. Farr: I should like to agree with everything which the hon. Gentleman said, but I threw in that suggestion because I feel that as our legislation is going at present we have to pause and think that perhaps the time has come to undertake some other method of treatment of juvenile offenders. The hon. Gentleman referred to the increase in crimes of violence of juveniles against the person. Roughly, in 1951, they were one in every 500 of juvenile crimes. Ten years later, they have increased to such an extent that they are one in about 75 of juvenile crimes. If they continue at such a headlong pace we shall have to adopt different methods.
  Mr. Hannan: I cannot begin a second speech in order to answer the hon. Gentleman's intervention, but I am sure that a close examination of the figures which the hon. Gentleman just quoted will lead to the conclusion which I have indicated.
  I feel that a wonderful opportunity has been lost in the Bill to deal with this subject more comprehensively. A social service in the real sense of the term might have been brought out of the present jungle of bits and pieces which the Bill represents. The overall picture is one of confusion, of indecision and overlap-
  1352
  ping of the various departments with consequent misapplication of time, money and energy and the use of outmoded buildings.
  The hon. Member for Harborough referred to the Criminal Justice Act. If he had been here earlier he would have heard my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, South-East (Miss Bacon) refer to that Measure. For thirteen years the Government have had the opportunity to provide remand homes and remand centres. There is only one in the country. There is not one in Scotland, even after thirteen years. There is a lack of trained staff and probation officers, certainly in Scotland. I hesitate to congratulate the authorities in England and Wales on the use of probation when young people appear before the courts, but it is far ahead of the use of the Probation Service in Scotland. I notice that the noble Lady the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland is present. Therefore, she has been made aware of this point.
  There is even confusion in the provision of—and I hesitate to use the word—institutions. There are children's homes, both voluntary and those provided by the local authority, probation homes, probation centres, remand homes, remand centres, detention centres and approved schools. Many young people think that this is a graduated scale up which they should climb.
  Paragraph 47 on page 19 of the Ingleby Report says:
  "It may be that the long-term solution will be in a reorganisation of the various services concerned with the family and their combination into a unified family service … Any such reorganisation at local authority level might well involve a corresponding reorganisation of the functions of the different government departments concerned. These are matters well outside our terms of reference, but we urge the importance of their further study by the Government and by the local interests concerned."
  I believe profoundly that while, taking a long term view, it was not within its terms of reference, this is one of the most important features of our society with which any Government have to contend and which should be faced at the earliest possible moment.
  I commend the words of the noble Lady, Baroness Wootton, in the (other place, who, when speaking on the Second Reading of the Bill, said that most of us who are fortunate in our social and family life, when confronted with young people

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  who have been mischievous and who have broken the rules, would consult headmasters, teachers, and doctors, but above all we would try to keep such matters within the ambit of the educational field. Why was it that we thought that for other people's children criminal charges were more appropriate? I emphasise those remarks.
  I recognise that the heart of the Bill is in Clause 1, which, like Clauses 2 to 31, does not apply to Scotland. In these circumstances, do we take it that we have not so many recalcitrants in Scotland, or that there will be another Bill for Scotland to do what Clause 1 does for England and Wales?
  I commend Clause 25, but I agree with the hon. Lady the Member far Plymouth, Devonport (Miss Vickers) that it should be compulsory for both parents to appear in court. In far too many instances, men, willingly or otherwise, escape their responsibilities and do not attend the court. I recognise that there may be economic difficulties here. A man would probably have to leave his job and go to a court at which the case is not heard. But in far too many cases his wife, the mother of his children, is left to face authority. Many people have cause to thank their mothers for their courage and tenacity in these matters.
  In Clause 35, which deals with entertainment in licensed premises, there is mention of the Licensing Acts of 1953 and 1959, but no reference to the Licensing (Scotland) Act, 1962, under which the Government extended licences into hotels and restaurants where young people are likely to mix. Is there any safeguard in this respect?
  The research proposed in Clause 4 will be very valuable but it will cost something and will be carried out mainly by large cities where there is a greater prevalence of juvenile crime. Will they make it available to others? Certainly they should receive a specific grant for this work and not have it included in the general grant.
  I welcome the provisions in Clauses 46, 47 and 48 because they mean that Orders made in England and Wales will also be operative in Scotland and vice versa. I am specially interested in this and I welcome it because I had the honour of introducing a Private Mem-
  1354
  ber's Bill in 1956 which stopped a loophole in the Children and Young Persons (Scotland) Act, 1937, through which children under the care of local authorities could be transferred illegally across the border from Scotland to England and could not be got back. Children transferred from England and Wales to Scotland could not be taken back either.
  Lastly, I ask the Home Secretary to indicate whether in Committee on the Clauses which have particular reference to Scotland a representative of the Scottish Office will be present. I welcome the Bill, but reluctantly and with no great enthusiasm. It is only bringing bits and pieces together. It is not the kind of great social measure over which people will enthuse. Yet Measures concerning the aged and the very young are among the most important to come before this House.
  8.42 p.m.
  Sir Peter Roberts: I welcome the Bill, along with all other hon. Members who have spoken today. The only major criticism I have noticed has come mainly from hon. Members opposite, and that is criticism of the lack of regimentation or co-ordination in dealing with the problem of young children. I do not accept that proposition or agree that this problem can be dealt with, as one hon. Member said, by knocking at one door, by making one approach.
  I have a special interest in the problem because for a number of years I have served on the Central Committee of the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children. One thing that impresses me is that cruelty to children may be in secret or done quietly, and the question of bringing it to the attention of the court depends upon information given by neighbours or friends or perhaps the education authorities—indeed, by very many different methods. It would be wrong just to have one door through which all these various complaints would be channelled, because there are people who would not be prepared to go through it.
  Our Society has local inspectors who provide the link whereby people can bring the attention of the Society, and through the Society the attention of the court, to what is going on. Because of

  1355
  the work that they do, I want to pay tribute to the inspectors in tackling the problems with which our Society was formed to deal. Indeed, it was the pioneer in the sort of work that we are talking about today.
  Secondly, I welcome Clause 1, which enables the Society to work in cooperation and liaison with local authorities. It is most important that these two influences for the health and protection of children, local authorities, on the one hand, and the Society, on the other, should be fostered and strengthened and brought together. I congratulate the Government on having provided the ways and means of bringing together the best of local authority work and the best of voluntary society work.
  I want to refer to one matter which was raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Devonport (Miss Vickers) concerning one of the partial recommendations of the Ingleby Committee—whether it should be only local authorities which should bring an action before the juvenile court. The Society strongly feels that its uniformed inspectors must have the right and the sanction to be able to say to a mother or father who may be ill-treating a child, "If you do not take the advice which we are giving you, and you will not try to mend your ways, there is the sanction that you or your child might be taken before the court".
  In practice, the vast majority of the thousands of cases with which the Society deals every year are handled by consent, advice and guidance and not by actual court action. If the inspectors lose that ultimate sanction, there is no doubt that their influence in the thousands of homes which they visit will be diminished.
  Mr. MacColl: Is not the hon. Member a little confused? The Ingleby recommendation dealt only with taking a child to court. Any powers which may or may not exist for prosecuting parents are not affected.
  Sir P. Roberts: I apologise to the House. I was not here when my hon. Friend the Member for Devonport was speaking and I only thought that that was what she was saying. If it was not, I shall not take the matter further.
  Because of the way that Clause 2 (2) is drawn, there is a possibility that it might
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  be read to mean that when there has been an assault on a small child by the father and the father has been sent to prison, one would have to wait for the father to come out of prison and commit another assault on the girl before action could be taken. I am sure that no hon. Member would wish that to be the result of the provision. There have been discussions with the Home Office and I have been assured that my fear would be covered by taking Clauses 1 and 2 together. However, I want to put it on record that some have expressed the fear that that is not so, although we would be satisfied if my right hon. Friend could assure us that under the Bill as now drawn one does not have to wait for another offence to be committed before appropriate remedial action can be taken.
  I welcome the Bill. I hope that it will lead to greater and closer co-operation among the local authorities and the voluntary bodies, and I wish the Government well in their campaign.
  8.49 p.m.
  Sir Barnett Janner: In the first place—and the first place will be close to the last place in view of the shortage of time—I should like to deal with a number of matters which have not so far been raised in the debate.
  Clause 1 gives a very fine opening to local authorities, and we hope that they will take full advantage of it. If not, I hope that the Home Office will take all possible steps to compel them to do so. I see that reports are to be made; I trust that they will be called for at frequent intervals.
  The Home Secretary has had a fair experience of another Ministry. I hope he realises that prevention of juvenile delinquency mainly depends upon the family life of the young person, that the family depends upon the house in which it lives, and that the house depends upon the home which has been made in it. In other words, the problem of the shortage of houses has to be dealt with rapidly if we are to prevent a further vast increase in juvenile delinquency.
  A long time has transpired while this problem has been investigated by committee after committee, and it has been stated that we have had to wait ten or twelve years for this Bill. I hope the

  1357
  same state of affairs will not prevail with other committees which are set up. Some time ago I referred to a committee for the reform of the jury system. A delay of twelve or fifteen years over that matter will not be tolerated.
  If the provisions of Clause 1 are adequately put into effect fewer persons will appear before the juvenile courts. The juvenile court magistrates are chosen because of their specific knowledge of the behaviour and the rearing of youth. This devoted set of people is as anxious as anyone to see that children shall be kept away from crime and protected so far as is humanly possible. I shall refer to some of the problems which have been raised by the chairmen of the London juvenile courts. I have to put the points fairly quickly, but I hope that the Home Secretary will be good enough to reply to them if he can do so in the time at his disposal.
  In Clause 3, the time limit of 28 days after the notice seems excessive and would make the whole process too slow compared with the present position, when normally the longest delay is one week. The chairmen submit that a limit of not more than fourteen days is more appropriate. If a parent applies to a local authority for a child to be dealt with because the child is unmanageable, the local authority should make up its mind within a much shorter time than a month, otherwise that position might deteriorate and, consequently the child's interests could be considerably impaired.
  The procedure proposed in Clause 4 might lead to evidence having to be given twice, as in almost every case the court would require to hear a minimum of evidence before coming to an opinion. I wonder whether the right hon. Gentleman could deal with that and, instead of having two tribunals, limit it to one so as not to have to call a person to give evidence twice.
  With regard to Clause 7 (2), when a juvenile who is subject to a fit person order is committed to an approved school, it is sometimes necessary to allow the fit person order to continue. The juvenile may have no parent or guardian or other relative. It may be in his interests for the fit person with whom he has established a friendly contact to continue to take an interest in him when he has been licensed from the school.
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  This appears to be the intention underlying the new provision in Clause 15 (2). It is suggested that this provision should be strengthened by amending Clause 7 (2) so as to enable the court to commit the juvenile to an approved school without revoking the fit person order. It is contended that under the Clause as drafted this would not be possible.
  I come now to Clause 8. Under the existing law the court has a duty to endorse an approved school order with the name of the school selected. The Ingleby Committee recommended that where the choice of training school rested with the Secretary of State he should be required to take into account any recommendation that the court might make. The Clause, as drafted, gives the court no say at all as to the approved school to which the juvenile should be sent. This is a regrettable position because, in my view, and I think in the view of most people who practise in the courts in London, it is not so much the evidence which is given in writing, but the evidence being given orally, the manner in which it is given, and the nuances which do not appear in any written document, which enable a satisfactory decision to be made, and I therefore consider that this decision should not be left entirely to the Minister.
  The present Act states that the Secretary of State shall, where practicable, select a school for persons of the religious persuasion to which the child belongs, but now the orders go back for signature to the court which made the approved school order, and this gives a real protection to the child in regard to religion as well as other matters. Having given the Secretary of State full powers under Clause 8, nobody will know whether a school of a different denomination has been chosen. The courts like to follow up cases which have come before them to see whether they can help the person concerned in any way.
  The proviso was originally made because there might have been only one or two children of a certain religion involved, say Jewish girls, and there cannot be a separate school for a couple of children. Incidentally, there are no Jewish girls at approved schools at the moment. It is not possible to run a

  1359
  school for every religion, and therefore there has been power to send children to schools of other denominations; but this safeguard has been removed by Clause 8 (1), and it is therefore essential that the orders should continue to be sent back to the court for approval.
  I draw the attention of the Minister to Clause 35. There is no mention of any exemption for bona fide youth clubs and play centres. Very often the young people and the children give performances in aid of the funds of their own club, or for club week, or for other good causes. If this matter is not cleared up it will cost them time and money, and they will be put to a lot of inconvenience that they can ill afford. It should not be beyond the Government's drafting powers to insert a proviso to deal with this, for it was surely not intended that such clubs and play centres should not be exempted.
  Everybody has been talking about the increase in juvenile delinquency. It will be of interest to the House however, to know that there is at least one good feature, whereas, in 1922, boys and girls in approved schools numbered nearly 10,000, in December, 1962, the number was 8,500—a drop of 1,500. It may be some kind of encouragement to people to know that the numbers in approved schools had fallen. I am happy to say in respect of my religious denomination the numbers in approved schools have become very small. There are now only eleven boys—nine seniors and two juniors—and there are no girls.
  I hope that the Minister will take advantage of the opportunities provided by the Bill, and will improve it by acting on the many points now raised and which will be raised in Committee, so that it will be made into a first class Bill.
  9.1 p.m.
  Mr. James MacColl: First, I should like to tell the right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary how pleasant it is to see him again. If, inadvertently, I find myself slipping into the general grant formula it will merely be from force of habit. I would also like to tell the Joint Under-Secretary that we all feel for him in the very difficult job that he had in explaining the Bill so clearly, at short notice. We
  1360
  appreciate the way in which he deployed for us the main points of the Bill.
  The hon. Gentleman did, however, make a rather unkind dig when he flaunted his fertility. Neither my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, South-East (Miss Bacon) nor I can be regarded as having made any notable contribution to the population, but we have both, in different ways, had to concern ourselves a good deal with other people's children. For many years my hon. Friend was a teacher, and when my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Stoke Newington and Hackney, North (Mr. Weitzman) was talking about children's legislation having existed for just over fifty years it hit me forcibly that I had been a juvenile court magistrate for just over twenty-five years. I am bound to say that as the years have passed I have grown more and more conscious of my own ineffectiveness for constructive work in it.
  Many hon. Members have criticised Clause 1 as being a rather inadequate summarising of what is not the best part of the Ingleby Report. Much criticism has been made of the Ingleby Committee as being more qualified to deal with points concerned courts—those being of more interest to its members—and that the preventive parts were put in really because of the rather curious terms of reference under which the Committee worked.
  The reason they were given the two jobs to do was, I think, simply that Lord Tenby, the then Home Secretary, was under pressure from many people who were interested in the courts side of the matter to set up an inquiry into the working of juvenile courts, and from the Fisher group to set up an inquiry into the family services. As a result, the Home Secretary gave the two jobs to one Committee.
  Clause 1, in its present form, is clearly inadequate for the job that it has to do. I hope that in Committee it will be strengthened and made a good deal more specific. I do not like the limitation of cash grants. It is necessary to have power to give them, and I do not see why it should be regarded as exceptional. In many cases it is essential to be able to spend money quite liberally in rehabilitating families that have gone on the

  1361
  rocks—problem families, or families which have been evicted. These people cannot be rehabilitated unless we get quickly on to the job. Speed is essential. If we lack the finance we cannot begin to carry out the more constructive social work which is done by bodies like the Family Service Unit.
  There is another point on Clause I which I should like to clear up. The hon. Gentleman said that he hoped that authorities would try the experiment of establishing family advice bureaux. I did not think that they had powers under the Bill to do so and I should like to know whether authorities who wish to start a family advice bureau, not specifically directed to dealing with the problems of children, but with the problems of the whole family, would be permitted to spend money on such a project. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will deal with that point now, rather than when we come to the Money Resolution.
  I welcome Clause 3, as many hon. Members have done. Here, I think that the Government have improved on the recommendations of the Ingleby Report. Many people have desired for a long time to get rid of the beyond control procedure. But we have been confronted with the dilemma that were that done parents who felt that the local authorities were not helping them sufficiently would be left with no remedy. The proposal in the Bill is, in my opinion, a neat way round, and I think that it will work.
  While discussing Clause 3 1 should like to underline the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, South-East and the hon. Lady the Member for Plymouth, Devonport (Miss Vickers) about the N.S.P.C.C. No one is saying that the Society should not continue to play an active part in relation to child welfare. That is not the point.
  I am not one of those who have been engaged in a feud with the N.S.P.C.C., like Sir Basil Henriques and other magistrates have. I am fairly neutral. But it seems to me indefensible that there should exist a situation in which the right of a parent to have access to the court is taken away and a private voluntary organisation is in the unique position of being able to take the children of someone else before the court. In logic, that is indefensible, and I hope that before the Bill emerges
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  from the Committee stage the Government may have been able to do something about it. We on this side of the House will certainly move to have the "power of the authorised person", as it is termed, removed.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Leicester, North-West (Sir B. Janner) raised a point which has not been previously referred to. To discuss it I will put on the hat of the magistrate rather than that of the politician, and, consequently, I may not necessarily carry with me every hon. Member on this side. I most strongly object to the provisions in Clause 8. This is a typical example of what is happening continually throughout penal legislation. More and more responsibility is being given to the Executive and taken away from the courts. Many magistrates have been using attendance centres in what they considered a useful and constructive manner by varying the number of hours. But, suddenly, it was considered that the Home Office knew best and this power was removed.
  For a long time the Home Office has desired to have more control over the choice of schools and there is something to be said for that. But the picture which is painted is that, on the one hand, there is the bumbling magistrate who knows nothing about the schools, or how to choose the right one, and, on the other, there is the wise, all-seeing professional who, calmly and dispassionately, and after looking at all the reports, chooses the right school for a child in a much more professional manner than a bumbling amateur would be capable of doing. In some cases there may be no dispute. The Department will choose wisely, but in a considerable number of cases this power will be used to cloak from the courts the fact that a child is not going to the right approved school, or, indeed, is not going to a school at all.
  Where the dispute between courts and the Home Office arises is when a court becomes annoyed at perpetual re-remanding to a remand home because there is no vacancy in an approved school. A child is pushed into an approved school which is not chosen on any careful, professional, psychiatric, or any other ground, but because there is a vacancy; or is remanded to a remand home. The residual power of the court to refuse to renew the order

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  and force the hand of the Executive is a very important safeguarding power.
  I think it quite wrong for the Government to take this power away from them. In the critical case, the case where the thing is breaking down, the court, as the body responsible for sending the child to an approved school, should have a say in protecting its interests when administration breaks down.
  I wish to say something on the question, which has been discussed a good deal, of the age of criminal responsibility. The hon. and learned Member for Billericay (Mr. Gardner) said that this was a nicely balanced question, and I am bound to confess that it is. It is like the Common Market: only when one has talked to someone for a long time does one realise on which side of the fence he is. I have been surprised that some people whose judgment I value take a different view from mine about it.
  What happened in the Magistrates' Association is probably typical. When it prepared its evidence the Juvenile Courts Committee, without any dissent, came out in favour of the age of 12 and the Council approved that. After the Ingleby Committee had reported on the basis of the Association's evidence, the Committee of the Council came out in favour of 10. After the Bill was published the Committee, without dissent, came down in favour of going back to 12. The Council, by a majority of one, rejected that recommendation. So it is clear that there is a good deal of difference of opinion on this matter.
  I shall try to put the case as I see it. The present position raises the most acute practical difficulties. I am a convert on this. Over the years I have had to wrestle practically with these problems and have come more and more to the conclusion about the right thing to do. I am not taking a theoretical view. In the first place, it is quite arbitrary as to who goes to court and who does not. This point has been made already by my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, South-East that different classes are treated differently. If the boy goes to a good independent school, and has parents who will take steps to deal with him, normally he is not taken to court. Children of most poor parents who have
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  not access to the same facilities, and cannot take their children to a psychiatrist in Harley Street, go to court.
  Secondly, it is different in different places. Liverpool, for better or worse, has a liaison scheme, with the result that many children who, in other parts of the country, would go to court in Liverpool do not. Some chief constables, as a practice, give a caution, but others do not caution because they think that all such children should go to court. It is different in different schools. Some headmasters consider that if the offence takes place outside the school the school should with the consent of the parents still deal with it, while others consider that as it is a matter of a breach of the law the school should not interfere. It depends on what school a child goes to whether or not he is brought before the court.
  Finally, if he steals from store A—I shall not mention names of stores as I do not want to assist my clients—as a matter of practice store A does not prosecute, but store B, as a matter of policy, does prosecute. So there is complete uncertainty of whether or not the child will go to a court or not. Then there are most difficult problems of interpretation. The hon. and learned Member for Billericay said that the rule of doli incapax was applied with varying degrees of strictness in different courts. That is true and if it were applied rigidly and strictly I have no doubt that in many cases children would be acquitted. Quite often, even when legally represented, the prosecutor has a very inadequate idea of the sort of evidence which is required.
  If that clear and strong rebuttal of which the hon. and learned Member spoke were, in fact, always demanded, there would be a great many more acquittals than there are. But, on the whole, magistrates who are welfare-minded tend to say that they must deal with the child for his own good and therefore they will not worry about niggardly legal points, whereas magistrates who are judicially-minded tend to say that they must interpret the law strictly and that, therefore, if there is no evidence of criminal responsibility, they must find him not guilty.
  I recall having sat many times with a much-loved former Member of the

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  House who was a very distinguished stipendiary magistrate, Dan Hopkin. He, I am sure, judged quickly what he wanted to do before he looked at the boy, and he then interpreted the rules in order to make what he thought was the right decision. He took a very practical view of it, as many stipendiaries do about points which worry amateurs.
  People get up and make speeches about children over 8 years of age knowing the difference between right and wrong and being responsible for what they do. I do not imagine that there is a parent in the House who has not at some time in his life said to his children, "If only you would think, you would not do a thing like that". That is the whole difficulty. It is not when one lectures a child in cold blood, as it were, about right and wrong; it is a question whether, when he is running with a gang of other little boys, he always remembers everything that he has been taught.
  When he is asked, "Did you intend to do it? Was there any animus furandi? What were you going to do with that bicycle?", he looks at one as if one were mad. He had never thought about that at all. These are the intolerable difficulties and dilemmas which we have to consider when we are really deciding whether a child needs the social services—the medical services, or the educational services. That does not depend on whether he has fallen one side or the other of the Larceny Act.
  In the case of the little boy who lights a bonfire, in a warehouse at 3 a.m. the question whether he is guilty of arson does not matter; what matters is that he should not be wandering about at 3 a.m. But that is not a criminal offence. Therefore, one may be tempted to stretch the provisions and to find him guilty, when under a strict interpretation he would not be guilty, in order to open the door to the social services which ought to be available to him without that and which for richer people are available. What is wanted, perhaps, is that he should go to a boarding school or to see a doctor or to get some kind of training which for the child of wealthy parents is available. That is the farce and the injustice of the present situation.
  The hon. Member made a very fair point that some people say that Ingleby
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  was too cissy and others say that it was too sadistic. The cissies and the sadists are always fighting over this ground. I am regarded by some of my colleagues—for example, Lady Wootton—as being a sadist, and others of my colleagues regard me as being a cissy. The point is that if we have available the family services provided by the authority, we need never bring a young child before the courts at all—and I think that the age of 12 is the lowest one can talk about here. This should be the case as long as we have the consent of the parents, because we can deal with the child as we deal with any other child who misbehaves. As long as the parents are anxious to see that he is helped, one acts by consent. There is the case in which the parents refuse to co-operate, as they are entitled to do. As this is a matter of the liberty of the subject, I think that in such a case the courts ought to make the final decision, that is the kind of case which, I think, should come before the court.
  That is the value of the proposals of the Ingleby Committee and the Magistrates' Association, which some people regard as cheating, for extending the care and protection proceedings by adding to the definition. What interests the court is not the exact degree of intention or the exact shade of knowledge of the difference between what is crime and what is just generally naughty. The question is whether the behaviour is of such a type that the child requires help and treatment, including, quite likely, punishment. The hon. and learned Member for Billericay asked whether punishment might not he part of education. The answer is that, unhappily, in the case of most of us, it has been. That is true. The important thing is that the key should be there to enable the unlocking to be done.
  I do not want to develop this point any longer, except to make clear what the argument is about. It is not an argument about people who want to pat children on the head and give them sweets. It is not an argument about people who want to birch them. It is about people who disagree about the trouble we are trying to cure. I think we are trying to cure this general behaviour, some of which is criminal and some of which is not criminal. What is wanted is preventive help rather than punishment after the event.

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  The hon. Lady the Member for Devonport said that we ought to make parents always attend. I have never had much difficulty, and I do not think that there is any difficulty, in getting parents to attend under the present law if they are wanted. It might help if the present law were tightened a little. The difficulty about always insisting on the attendance of parents is that a great deal of upset can be caused. I have often found that when a father does not attend one of two things are true. One possibility is that he is not the father and that comes out in the row because he says, "I am not going to go because you are not my child", which is not the happiest time for the child's bastardy to be discussed. The second possibility is that when the magistrate looks at the father he knows why he has not wanted to come; the magistrate can see that he is extremely unstable and neurotic and the court gets on very much better without him. These are the exceptional cases, but in most serious cases both parents should be present.
  Another point which the hon. Lady raised is about the reporting of cases. I welcome the proposals to limit the reporting so that, when a young person is committed for trial, the case will not be reported. However, as I understand it, this will not apply in the reverse case. When a child appears in the first instance in an adult court and is then sent down—"sent down" is an irritating phrase which I must not betray myself into using; the best expression is "sent across"—to a juvenile court to be dealt with after being found guilty by the adult court, what very often happens is that when the case is called on the magistrate is informed in a hoarse whisper by the probation officer, "This case was in the 'Daily Howl' in terrific headlines all last week".
  The damage has been done already, because when it was in the adult court there was no protection. I think that many newspapers are very reasonable and do not report such cases. As my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Stoke Newington and Hackney, North said, it is in the case of the odd man who is, if I may use the phrase, Mr. Speaker, bloody-minded about it, who does it on purpose just to be difficult
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  and unpleasant, that the law ought to be fairly tough.
  I want now to look at one or two other smaller points. I shall not say very much about the later part of the Bill because those points can be examined more carefully in Committee. It may well be possible—I hope that it will be—to extend the provision safeguarding young witnesses from having to appear in court at the first hearing to one or two other types of cases by extending other parts of the Children Act. We can look at that point in Committee.
  The age of 13 should be raised to 16, because, while I do not pretend to be an expert on teenage female psychology, I am told by the experts on this erudite subject that an assault on a girl aged 15 can have greater psychological effect than an assault on a younger girl, for the younger one does not appreciate the full implications of it and that, provided she has not been bullied or hurt, she does not take it so very seriously. It is, therefore, a great pity to stop at the age of 13, since a great deal of injury may be caused to some of the older girls.
  Naturally, the rights of the accused person must be safeguarded. We all know that often the defendent is wrongly accused and, therefore, in our thought for the innocent victim, we must be careful not to load the dice too much against an unjustly accused person; and that person must not be handicapped in his defence.
  I would like to express my agreement with the comments of my hon Friend the Member for Leeds, South-East about teenage girls' approved schools. We are a long way from understanding exactly how to deal with young girls. After all, life for most males—and I can speak with some authority institutional on this—is, however much disliked, reasonably tolerable. We saw that in "The Loneliness of the Long-Distance Runner". Even the most frustrated and maladjusted anti-social boy can find the kind of community life in the Army of in an approved school—with its physical exercises, boxing, dirty stories with friends, and so on—something to be tolerated, even if he dislikes having his liberty taken away.
  However, girls at that age are individualist. They are not particularly

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  interested in being associated with other girls. They are more interested in competing for the attentions of the opposite sex and the last thing they want to do is to associate entirely with other girls. The answer, I suppose, is for someone to invent an approved school to be run by someone prepared to give the girls teaching in deportment, cosmetics, how to refuse a proposal of marriage, how to act in the cinema when a boy sitting nearby asks a question. As against that sort of social training we must avoid having compulsory needlework and lacrosse as the basis of approved school life.
  I am in favour of the Bill—whatever may be thought from my remarks—because, by and large, it represents an improvement. I hope that, if the right hon. Gentleman is more reasonable than sometimes I have known him to be in Committee upstairs, we may improve the Measure. However, I would certainly not advise my hon. Friends to vote against it at this stage.
  9.28 p.m.
  The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Henry Brooke): During the past six years I may possibly have introduced more Bills than any other Minister. It is a joy to be responsible for one which, seemingly, no one, not even the hon. Member for Widnes (Mr. MacColl), wishes to oppose on Second Reading. I am anxious to express my appreciation for the debate, the spirit in which it has taken place and the many valuable suggestions which have been made by hon. Members on both sides of the House.
  At the outset I wish to utter my personal thanks to the members of both the Ingleby and Bateson Committees. Whether or not we agree with every one of their recommendations, I think that we would be at one in feeling that they have covered a difficult field with great care and devotion.
  Mr. Tam Dalyell: Without wishing to sound a jarring note, would the right hon. Gentleman not agree that it was a pity that on the Ingleby Committee there was no probation officer and no teacher?
  Mr. Brooke: I am not going over the members of the Ingleby or Bateson Committees. The latter was appointed in the
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  time of the right hon. Member for South Shields (Mr. Ede). One can always review the membership of a Committee, but nevertheless I think that they both produced valuable reports.
  Above all, I want to express my gratitude, and I think that of the whole House, to all those people who are at work in the field of care of children, whether they are doing it on a salaried basis or voluntarily in voluntary organisations or as managers of approved schools or as members of local authorities. In that I include probation officers, child care officers, housemothers and housefathers, and staffs of the reception homes and the remand homes and the approved schools.
  Since I became Home Secretary in July, I have been making it my business to get about the country and visit a wide variety of these various establishments. This is far and away the most fascinating part of a Home Secretary's job, largely because, as my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Edgbaston (Dame Edith Pitt) said, it is concerned with children, and it is children who matter more than anybody else. Despite the carping words of the hon. Lady the Member for Leeds, South-East (Miss Bacon) about the attitude to the Home Office, I have found wherever I have gone tributes paid to the helpfulness of the Children's Department of the Home Office. I take no personal credit for that because that Department was built up under my predecessors.
  As to the question to which the hon. Member for Widnes referred at the end of his speech and about which other hon. Members spoke earlier, the question of approved schools for girls, it is of course for the court to decide whether it is right in a particular case to send a girl to an approved school rather than to deal with her through probation or in any other way. I entirely agree that approved schools for adolescent girls present special problems. The Home Office Inspectorate has studied this question.
  It seems to be clear that adolescent girls get on better in fairly large approved schools which are divided into separate groups under the house system. It is on that basis that the new approved schools for girls are being built. I certainly give an assurance to the House that the extent and the difficulty of this problem are fully recognised. I must say in fairness that

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  when I went to an approved school for adds at Staines the other day I thought that it was magnificently run.
  As the House knows, we are embarked on a vigorous policy of expansion of approved schools designed to win us 2,000 additional places within a period of five years, over and above the expansion of the remand homes which is going on, and I hope that the intense pressure on vacancies is already easing a little. Though the statutory requirement has not yet come into operation, I am proposing to bring into force this year the provision in an earlier Act for an Annual Return to Parliament relating to approved schools and remand homes and the like. Before the Summer Recess I hope to have laid Returns both for 1961 and 1962.
  There was one class of people which I omitted to mention—foster parents. This Bill may not be directly concerned with them, but in the visits I have paid I have been profoundly impressed with the devotion to the children which I have seen in various foster homes. This country can be intensely proud of the fact that there are husbands and wives who are willing to take into their homes and bring up with their own children the children of others who have been abandoned, orphaned or neglected, of whom they have known nothing before and to whom they are giving the most valuable gift any parents can give—the experience of a happy home life.
  The hon. Member for Widnes asked me about my attitude to Amendments in Committee. I am quite sure that together we all ought to try to improve and perfect this Bill. The hon. Lady the Member for Leeds, South-East perhaps did not make quite the most auspicious impression on me when she indicated that if the Government accepted an Opposition Amendment she would read that as proof that the Government had inadequately considered the Bill before presenting it. I have been leader of the opposition in another authority where it was regarded by the majority party as a loss of face if they accepted any amendment from the other side. That is not my approach at all. I think that is a foolish one, particularly on a Bill like this where there is virtually no contrasting political philosophy involved.
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  The truth is that juvenile delinquency is the greatest and gravest problem that anyone holding my office today has to face. We have to recognise, as an hon. Member has said, that a very large proportion of it is due to the broken home; to the lack of sense of belonging to which my hon. Friend the Member for Edgbaston referred in her admirable speech.
  I have my own ideas, and my own purposes, which I hope I may be able to further, but let us be frank. No one knows all there is to know about this subject. If any of us did, we should be supermen. The truth is that the problem of juvenile delinquency is puzzling people in all the industrialised countries of the world, and I say quite frankly that I am ready to learn and to receive good ideas from any quarter, to which I shall seek to add my own.
  On some Clauses we shall find in Committee that the arguments are nicely balanced. I do not believe that it is possible to give absolutely certain proof that the age of 13 is right and that the age of 14 is wrong, or vice versa. On many of these matters I shall listen with interest to the discussion in the Standing Committee and attempt to guide the Committee to the best of my ability.
  There has been hardly any criticism of Part II of the Bill. I do not demur at all to the criticism of the long time that it has taken to embody the Bateson recommendations in legislation. That Report was published sixteen months before the Labour Government fell. But we shall certainly have achieved some success if we have worked out a scheme which manages to modernise what is now a rather messy field of legislation and which proves to be a scheme generally acceptable.
  I noted what the hon. Member for Glasgow, Maryhill (Mr. Hannan) said about the Scottish aspects of this matter. I can assure him that Clause 35 (2, b) is correctly drafted in referring to the 1959 Act and not to the 1962 Act, but maybe he will wish to satisfy himself further on that in Committee.
  As to Part III, my hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Devonport (Miss Vickers) also made a most constructive speech. Clause 43 is needed because at the moment we have no powers to

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  spend money on research into child welfare. We can under existing legislation spend money researching into the causes of delinquency and the treatment of offenders, but in this Bill we are particularly concerned with the welfare of the child. I am sure that she will agree that it is a good and progressive action to extend our research powers in that way. I cannot say how much money will be needed for this purpose.
  The hon. Member for Wigan (Mr. Fitch) suggested that the Continent was far ahead of us in research into juvenile delinquency. If he investigates the matter further, he will, I believe, find that this is not so. I know of no country on the Continent which has anything comparable with the Home Office Research Unit whose scope we are seeking to extend by the Bill.
  Clause 52 relating to Press publicity has been generally welcomed. I take the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon, South (Sir R. Thompson). It strikes me as a very difficult one to cover, but this, again, is something we may be able to consider in Committee. The House as a whole has made clear its desire that something on the lines of Clause 52 should be put on the Statute Book.
  I come now to the main part of the Bill, Part I. The age of criminal responsibility may be the most contentious and controversial issue in this part, but I do not believe that, for the benefit of the children, it is the most important. I shall, therefore, come to that a little later in my speech and deal first with some of the other Clauses which deserve notice.
  Clause 30, which deals with penalties, has been generally welcomed although questions have been raised as to whether it goes far enough. My hon. and learned Friend the Member for Billericay (Mr. Gardner), with whose speech I very largely agreed, doubted whether the maximum terms of imprisonment were sufficient. To that I reply that the Clause is directly based on the Ingleby recommendations, and the Ingleby Committee clearly took into consideration the sentences of imprisonment as well as fines. My hon. and learned Friend will bear in mind that the penalties contained in Clause 30 are additional to any penalties which may
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  already be provided for under other legislation such as the Offences against the Person Act and the Sexual Offences Act.
  A universal welcome has been accorded to Clause 27 which relates to methods for trying to secure that a girl who has been the victim of a sexual offence does not have to give evidence twice in court. Here again, several hon. Members, including the hon. Lady the Member for Leeds, South-East and my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Billericay, questioned whether the age of thirteen was right. This is a matter on which I should be glad to listen to the views of both sides of the Committee in due course. It is relevant to mention that, under the Sexual Offences Act, as the House will know, far more severe penalties are provided in the case of an offence against a girl under 13 than in the case of an offence against a girl over 13. So the age of 13 is not completely arbitrary. However, I have not got a closed mind about it, if there are strong feelings that we should alter this age.
  Can we improve the drafting of Clause 25? As hon. Members may know, the Clause was redrafted in another place. If we can express its purpose more clearly, I shall be only too happy. The purpose of it—here I think I carry the whole House with me—is to ensure that, whenever both parents ought to be in court, they can be made to be in court. That purpose I strongly support, but I do not think we should go too far and say in the Statute, as some hon. Members have suggested, that on every occasion both parents should be in court. It seems to me to be excessive if we seek to write into the law a provision that both parents must be present if a boy of 16 is up before the juvenile court for riding a bicycle without a light. There are offences of very different gravity.
  We are, I think, all at one in believing that in the case of the more serious offences both parents should be in court to hear what is said and to take cognisance about the court's view of their child. At present the law does not adequately provide for that. Clause 25 is designed to ensure that courts can insist on the presence of both parents whenever it thinks it necessary, but, as I say, I do

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  not claim perfection for the wording, and if we can improve it in Committee we will.
  I come to the question of the age of criminal responsibility. I respect all the views which have been expressed. The hon. Member for Widnes was good enough to say that this was one of the matters which had to be regarded as nicely balanced, although he definitely came down on one side. The same is true of much of the evidence given to the Ingleby Committee. The hon. Gentleman spoke of the Magistrates' Association. The London juvenile court magistrates were deeply divided about what the age of criminal responsibility should be. We have no need to be ashamed of ourselves whatever view we take, and we should be able to argue it out among ourselves not as a matter of one age which can be proved conclusively right as against another but as a matter on which in the end we have to use our practical judgment, and no one should be better able to do that than Members of Parliament.
  I ask the House, before the Bill goes to Committee, to examine the real difficulties. Listening to some hon. Members, I felt that they had not probed the matter as deeply as we in the Home Office have had to do in the course of our duties.
  Assume that the Government had accepted the Ingleby recommendation, as a number of hon. Members have suggested we should have done, under which the age of criminal responsibility would be raised from 8 to 12 years, but with a special procedure relating to children between 8 and 12 years who had been brought to court for something which now would be a criminal offence, but which, under the Ingleby recommendation, would not be a criminal offence. Then suppose that two boys of 13 and 11 years go stealing together. The boy of 11 years, under the Ingleby recommendations, would be brought to court as in need of "protection or discipline", which are the words used in the Ingleby Report. The boy of 13 years would be brought to court charged with an offence, and, as he is over 12 years, the offence must be proved if he is to be punished, and it must be proved, as my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Billericay cogently said, not on the balance of probabilities but beyond reasonable doubt.
  Now consider the boy of 11 years. Both boys have done exactly the same
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  thing and the evidence is the same in both cases. The boy of 11, under the Ingleby procedure, would be brought to the court as being in need of protection or discipline. But a lower standard of proof would be required to bring about his punishment, and the Ingleby Report frankly recognised that he would not have available to him the defence and the protection that the law allows to someone charged with a criminal offence. Thus, on identical evidence, the older boy might get off because the offence was not proved beyond reasonable doubt, while the younger boy might be punished. I stress that word "punished" because the Ingleby recommendations envisage punishment.
  I doubt whether it can be right that when two boys have committed identical offences, and have identical evidence against them, the younger one should be punished while the older one gets off. In Committee we must address ourselves to this sort of problem, and if the Bill does not find the right way of solving it we must seek to find some other way, because the Ingleby proposal itself is open to very grave criticism on that count.
  Miss Bacon: This is an interesting point and one which I raised about stealing bicycles. But surely the example would apply whatever the age of criminal responsibility. One can choose a year below or a year above, but whatever the age of criminal responsibility the position described by the right hon. Gentleman will still obtain.
  Mr. Brooke: I grant that, but the contrast becomes much more acute when the age is 12 years than it is when the age is eight years. Two boys aged seven and eight may do something together but it is unlikely that they will engage in grave crime together, whereas I am sorry to say that the figures show that real crime becomes all too common at the age of 11 or 12. The hon. Lady has made a point but I do not think it is a very powerful one.
  The hon. Lady the Member for Leeds, South-East suggested some other form of machinery for dealing with the boy under 12—perhaps some educational or social provision. It is all very well to say that, but one must define what it is to be. If a boy of 11, seeing a door

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  open, goes into a place and steals something, or does damage, what is to happen to him? The hon. Lady said that it is abhorrent that the boy can be charged with a criminal offence, but many people will think it abhorrent if nothing effective can be done about him. Somehow or other we have to find the right way. I attach great value to subsection (2) of Clause 16, which provides that an offence committed below the age of 14 shall not remain on a person's record after the age of 21. We have gone further than Ingleby in that matter.
  In the last few minutes I want to come to the remaining Clauses of Part I. I assure the hon. Member for Leicester, North-West (Sir B. Janner) that the Home Office would take into account any recommendation of a court regarding the approved school that the boy should go to. But I say to the right hon. Member for South Shields, whose contribution I naturally very much appreciated because of his wisdom, that this Clause embodies no fundamental change from what has been practice if not law for many years.
  Mr. MacColl: Is the right hon. Gentleman referring to Clause 8? If he is, that Clause makes a fundamental change.
  Mr. Brooke: For many years, when there has been no classifying school place available, magistrates have normally consulted the Home Office as to where a boy should be sent. I can assure the right hon. Member for South Shields that we have acted on the Carlton School inquiry recommendations and that a managers' handbook has been issued and has been welcomed by managers. A number of other recommendations have also been implemented.
  The reform in Clause 3 has been universally welcomed and provides that a parent can no longer put his child up in court as being beyond control. Clause 2 gives a new definition. It uses the words "care, protection or control" which are more satisfactory than "care or protection" as in the existing law. I expect that in Committee it will be desirable carefully to study subsections (1) and (2).
  Finally, I come to Clause 1. This is by far the most important part of the
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  Bill, as all local authorities recognise. I appreciated the action of the right hon. Member for South Shields in reading a letter from the County Councils Association with its generous tribute to the main purposes of the Bill. Though I am naturally accustomed to hearing from hon. Members opposite that Bills introduced by the Government are timid and so forth, nevertheless, when I have been visiting local authorities and others who are concerned with the care of children on the spot, I have heard no carping criticism of that kind against the Bill. I have heard nothing but enthusiastic welcome for it.
  The wording of Clause 1 makes the duty of a local authority quite clear, and it provides properly, as we should all wish, for co-operation with voluntary agencies. Here, again, if we can further improve that in Committee, nobody will be happier than I. I am sure that local authorities will act on this Clause and will perform their new duties with vigour.
  Suspicions were raised as to whether they might seek to be sluggish about it. We have our excellent Home Office inspectors who will be watching what they do and, as my hon. Friend the Member for Bridgwater (Sir G. Wills) advocated, there will certainly be consultations, not only among local authorities and the voluntary organisations in an area, but with the Home Office too.
  It will be possible under these provisions for any local authority which wishes, to set up what I might call a family advice bureau where people can seek advice about the problems of their children, and where the local authority will arrange to help them with all the skill and knowledge at its command. It will be possible, as my hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Devonport asked, for local authorities to experiment in various directions. That is just what we want.
  The hon. Member for Wigan suggested a central unit, but I should like to see as wide a range of experiments as possible, because I do not think that any of us sitting in Parliament can say that there is one scheme which will be ideal for all local authorities. There was some criticism of subsection (4) and I was asked why I had not by Statute required local authorities to submit

  1379
  schemes instead of merely that I would call for reports. I can best answer that in the words of the right hon. Member for South Shields in answer to a similar plea when he said:
  "… this is not a service that lends itself to the preparation of a scheme.… We desire that there shall be the greatest possible variety in dealing with this work, and we think that the local authorities should be getting on with the job of looking after the children, rather than drawing up paper schemes for submission.… I have no doubt that, should there be slackness, it is far better that the inspectors of the Home Office and the other members of the authority should be the persons to see that the work is done, rather than that we should give them some excuse in some way far not getting on wish the task which the Measure will assign to the local authority."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, Standing Committee C, 10th June, 1948; c. 195.]
  I want local authorities to get on with the job and not spend too much time drawing up schemes. This new work is to be built on to a great deal of existing work.
  I hope that the message which will go from the House will be that we desire local authorities to press on as rapidly as they can, always bearing in mind, as my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Edgbaston said, that it is the children who matter most of all.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Bill accordingly read a Second time.
  Bill committed to a Standing Committee pursuant to Standing Order No. 38 (Committal of Bills.)

  BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
  Proceedings on the Lords Amendments to the National Insurance Bill exempted, at this day's Sitting, from the provisions of Standing Order No. 1 (Sittings of the House).—[Mr. Brooke.]

  CHILDREN AND YOUNG PERSONS [MONEY]
  [Queen's Recommendation signified]
  Considered in Committee under Standing Order No. 84 (Money Committees).
  [Sir WILLIAM ANSTRUTHER-GRAY in the Chair]
  Resolved,
  That, for the purposes of any Act of this Session to amend the law relating to children and young persons, it is expedient to authorize—

  (a) the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of—

  (i) any expenses incurred by the Secretary of State in conducting or assisting other persons in conducting research into any matter connected with his functions or the functions of local authorities under the Children and Young Persons Acts, 1933 to 1956, the Children and Young Persons (Scotland) Acts, 1937 and 1956, the Children Act, 1948, the Children Act, 1958 or the said Act of this Session, or any matter connected with the adoption of children; and

  (ii) any administrative expenses incurred by the Secretary of State under the said Act of this Session;

  (b) any increase attributable to the said Act of this Session in the sums payable out of moneys provided by Parliament by way of Rate-deficiency Grant or Exchequer Equalisation Grant under the enactments relating to local government in England and Wales or in Scotland; and

  (c) any increase in the sums payable out of moneys so provided under the said enactments in respect of general grants which may arise—

  (i) from the inclusion, in the expenditure relevant to the fixing of the aggregate amounts of those grants, of expenditure under the said Act of this Session; and

  (ii) from any provision of that Act authorising the variation of any general grant order made before the commencement of that Act for a grant period ending after the commencement of that Act so as to take account of additional expenditure incurred or likely to be incurred by local authorities in consequence of the passing of that Act.—[Mr. Brooke.]

  Resolution to be reported.
  Report to be received Tomorrow.

  NATIONAL INSURANCE BILL
  Lords Amendments considered.
  NATIONAL INSURANCE BILL
    Title
    Consideration of the Lords Amendments in the Title, lines 15 and 16, postponed till after the consideration of the subsequent Amendments.—[Mr. N. Macpherson.]
    Title

      New Clause A.—(ALLOWANCES IN RESPECT OF INCAPACITIES ARISING FROM PRE-1948 EMPLOYMENT.)
      Lords Amendment: In page 5, line 9, at end insert new Clause A:
      A.—(1) The Workmen's Compensation and Benefit (Supplementation) Act 1956 (which provides for the payment of allowances out of the Industrial Injuries Fund in cases of injury or disease arising out of pre-1948 employment and resulting in total disablement or incapacity for work), as amended by section 1 (1) of the Family Allowances and National Insurance Act 1961, shall have effect with the substitution in section 2 of a rate of allowance of 65 shillings a week for the rate of 32 shillings and 6 pence a week.
      (2) The Family Allowances and National Insurance Act 1961 (which among other things provided for the payment of improved allowances in respect of incapacities arising from pre-1948 employment) shall, in relation to the payment of allowances for periods of incapacity for work falling after the coming into force of this subsection, be amended—
      (a) by the substitution for section 1 (2) (a) (which altered to 66 shillings and to 50 shillings the monetary references in section 2 of the Workmen's Compensation (Supplementation) Act 1951 which operate to limit the maximum weekly rate of allowance which under any scheme under the said Act of 1951 may be paid in cases of injury or disease arising out of pre-1924 employment) of the following paragraph—
      "(a) shall be amended by the substitution in section 2 (2) and (8) of references to 86 shillings and to 70 shillings for the references to 66 shillings and 50 shillings (which operate to limit the maximum weekly rate of allowance under any scheme); and";
      and
      (b) by the substitution in section 1 (2) (b) and in paragraph 1 (d) of Schedule 1 of references to 30 shillings for the references to 10 shillings (which operate to limit the maximum weekly rate of allowance which under any scheme under the said Act of 1951 may be paid in cases of injury or disease arising out of post-1923 employment).
      (3) The Industrial Diseases (Benefit) Acts 1951 and 1954 (which authorise the making of schemes for the payment of allowances out of the Industrial Injuries Fund in cases of
      1382
      disease arising out of pre-1948 employment but not entitling the sufferer to workmen's compensation) shall be amended by the substitution in section 3 (2) of the Pneumoconiosis and Byssinosis Benefit Act 1951 of the words "or, if the disablement is not total, 42 shillings and 6 pence" for the words "or, if the disablement is not total, 27 shillings and 6 pence" (which were substituted by section 1 (3) of the said Act of 1961); and any scheme under those Acts of 1951 and 1954 which is in force at the coming into force of this subsection shall have effect accordingly.
      (4) If an allowance under the Workmen's Compensation and Benefit (Supplementation) Act 1956 is awarded to a person who has previously been awarded an allowance under the Workmen's Compensation (Supplementation) Act 1951 or the Industrial Diseases (Benefit) Acts 1951 and 1954, and the conditions for entitlement to the two allowances are inconsistent. the decision awarding the allowance under the Act of 1956 shall direct that any sums paid under the other award to which the beneficiary cannot be entitled in addition to the allowance under the Act of 1956 shall be treated as paid on account of the allowance under the Act of 1956:
      Provided that the award shall be subject to the condition that if there is a requirement to repay any sums paid on account of the allowance under the said Act of 1951 or the said Acts of 1951 and 1954 the direction shall not have effect in relation to those sums.
      10.2 p.m.
      The Minister of Pensions and National Insurance (Mr. Niall Macpherson): I beg to move, That this House doth agree with' the Lords in the said Amendment.
      This Clause was introduced in another place in consequence of an undertaking which I gave the House on the Committee stage of the Bill to consider how far it would be possible to carry into effect the principle underlying the new Clause moved by the hon. Member for Bedwellty (Mr. Finch) and supported from both sides of the House.
      The issues involved in this subject of "old cases" are highly complex and technical, and it has always been considered in the past that they are best dealt with by special legislation such as we had in 1956 and 1961. But after listening to the arguments put forward in Committee, I gave the House the assurance that I would consider their position urgently. I am glad that it has proved possible to deal with them in this Bill, if the House agrees. I should add that it would have been quite impossible to do so but for the work done by my predecessors in keeping the whole question constantly under review and for the

      1383
      machinery which they set up to implement the earlier Measures.
      This new Clause increases the existing allowances for "old cases". Its broad effect is to bring the "totals" up to the level of their industrial injuries counterparts on the 100 per cent. disablement pension. It also makes substantial improvements in the provisions for "partials" on maximum compensation and for those coming under the special schemes for "time-barred" old cases. As this is a complicated matter, perhaps it would help the House if I went through the Clause in somewhat more detail.
      Subsection (1) increases the supplementary allowance payable out of the Industrial Injuries Fund under the Workmen's Compensation and Benefit (Supplementation) Act, 1956, to totally disabled "old cases". The allowance is payable in the first place to totally disabled people who are entitled to weekly payments of workmen's compensation whether on account of injury or disease.
      Secondly, the allowance is payable to those entitled to benefit for total disablement under one of the schemes made under the Industrial Diseases (Benefit) Acts, 1951 and 1954. Those schemes, I should perhaps remind the House, provide allowances for pneumoconiosis, byssinosis and certain slowly developing malignant diseases due to employment before 1948 for those who fail to qualify for workmen's compensation owing to the time limits which operated under the Workmen's Compensation Acts.
      The subsection doubles, the existing allowance from 32s. 6d. to 65s. The effect is to bring the weekly amount payable to the totally disabled married man, with the 50s. a week workmen's compensation which he gets, up to 115s., which is the rate of the 100 per cent, industrial injuries disablement pension in the Bill. For other totally disabled men on compensation the amount will go up to 105s. Those who qualify as totally disabled under the Industrial Diseases (Benefit) Acts will similarly receive 105s. For the last two categories the appropriate dependency increases are also payable.
      Subsection (2), to which I now turn, deals with certain partially disabled workmen's compensation cases who benefit under the Workmen's Compensation (Supplementation) Act, 1951, as since
      1384
      amended. I should perhaps remind the House that the 1951 Act deals separately with men injured before 1st January, 1924, and those injured after that date, and the subsection follows that pattern.
      Subsection (2) (a) provides for partially disabled men injured before 1st January, 1924. It replaces Section 1 (2) (a) of the 1961 Family Allowances and National Insurance Act, which at present provides that for periods of partial incapacity for work the weekly rate of allowance shall not exceed 50s. less the amount of workmen's compensation, and also that it shall not exceed the difference between two-thirds of the weekly loss of earnings and the amount of workmen's compensation.
      Certain married men can receive an addition of up to 16s. for a dependent wife, that is, 66s. in all. This increase is not payable where there is title to a dependency increase for a wife under the main insurance schemes. The subsection increases these maxima of 50s. and 66s. by 20s., to 70s. and 86s. respectively.
      Subsection (2) (b), on the other hand, deals with partially disabled men who were injured after 1st January, 1924. Section 1 (2) (b) of the Family Allowances and National Insurance Act, 1961, provided an allowance of up to 10s. for these men. This allowance is now increased to 30s. maximum, subject to the restriction that the compensation payable and the allowance together shall not exceed two-thirds of the earnings lost as a result of the disablement. I should add that the effect of the loss of earnings rule is that the increased allowances to which the subsection applies are payable only to those who are at present entitled to the full 10s. supplementary allowance, since those who are getting less than the whole 10s. will already have had their full loss of earnings taken into account by their existing awards. But should the earning power of any of them subsequently deteriorate as a consequence of the injury for which they are being compensated, they will be entitled to an appropriate increase in the rate of their supplementary allowance.
      Subsection (3) of the new Clause provides for an increase of 15s. a week in the existing 27s. 6d. a week allowance paid for partial disablement under the benefit schemes made under the Industrial Diseases (Benefit) Acts. These

      1385
      schemes give allowances to persons with one of certain slowly developing industrial diseases who left the employment which gave rise to it before 5th July, 1948, so that they could not qualify under the Industrial Injuries Act, and who were also time-barred from workmen's compensation. The great majority of them have pneumoconiosis. The Industrial Diseases (Benefit) Act, 1954, enabled an allowance to be paid in such cases for partial disablement. To avoid introducing the complicated workmen's compensation loss of earnings rules the allowance was made payable at a flat, "compromise" rate—which, as I say, is now 27s. 6d. This subsection increases that sum to 42s. 6d., and also provides for the change to take effect automatically in the existing schemes without the need for further amendment of them.
      Finally, subsection (4) deals with a more technical point. This is the possibility that an award under the 1956 Workmen's Compensation and Benefit (Supplementation) Act may be backdated so that it overlaps with a period for which an allowance for partial disablement has already been paid. The subsection requires that the amount of the earlier award during the overlapping period shall be treated as having been paid on account of the later award.
      With this explanation, I commend the new Clause to the House. It is inevitably somewhat technical and complex, but I believe it makes provision for the "old cases" in an appropriate and, I trust, an acceptable way.
      Mr. Douglas Houghton: I am sure that the House would wish to thank the Minister for his very full and lucid explanation of this long and complicated Amendment. We have heard a great deal more in explanation of these proposals than their Lordships heard in another place yesterday, where the noble Lord the Earl of Dundee seemed to "blind their Lordships with science" and get away with a fairly brief explanation of what this was all about. Indeed, the Amendment was referred to as an erudite Amendment, because it was so impressive. So it is, but it improves the Bill to the great satisfaction of my right hon. and hon. Friends.
      I wish to apologise to the Minister on behalf of my right hon. Friend the Member for Llanelly (Mr. J. Griffiths)
      1386
      and my hon. Friend the Member for Bedwellty (Mr. Finch), both of whom are unavoidably prevented from being present at this debate.
      The Amendment arises from a new Clause moved in Committee by my hon. Friend the Member for Bedwellty on 6th February. Towards the end of that debate, which was both long and moving, and dealt with these old cases, the Minister made a quite dramatic intervention. He undertook to give the matter most urgent consideration. He said that he was not certain that the Bill would be the proper vehicle for bringing about changes which he might find it possible to make. We must express our great pleasure to the right hon. Gentleman that he so speedily carried out that undertaking, and that he has brought the Amendments that he proposes within the scope of the Bill. It is a great convenience and benefit to all concerned.
      The Minister gave the undertaking on 6th February, and on 14th February he was able to reply to a Question on the matter by way of a Written Answer. We wish to thank him for so speedily bringing forward these proposals, and we join with him in thanking the officials of his Ministry who facilitated this speedy work.
      Much that is contained in the Amendment we find fully satisfactory. In respect of the totally disabled cases and the old cases of serious disablement we find that the Minister's proposals meet what we had in mind.
      I have only one criticism to make. It is about the so-called partial cases. In the debate on 15th February, the day after the Minister announced his intentions, some of my hon. Friends and I referred to this point. No doubt the Minister has seen what I suggested. He was unable to be present during the debate, for reasons which were conveyed to the House at the time. But it appears in the OFFICIAL REPORT in col. 1695. I made suggestions which I hoped would meet the problem presented by the partially disabled cases.
      10.15 p.m.
      I said that it would be better to sweep away the two-thirds restriction and compensate these partially disabled people fully for the loss of earnings as a result of their accident or disease, subject to the

      1387
      maximum supplementation not exceeding the limit of the special hardship allowance. That seemed to me to make sense of the whole difficult and complicated situation. It would virtually transfer these people to the principles of the Industrial Injuries Act. That Act contains no such restriction as compensation for two-thirds of loss of earning powers.
      As the House knows, the principle of the Industrial Injuries Scheme is compensation for loss of faculty, so in many cases no question of the loss of earnings arises. But in that scheme we have what is known as a special hardship allowance, which is intended to supplement the disablement pension for loss of faculty by some extra allowance to compensate also for serious loss of earning capacity. There is a ceiling put upon the amount of the special hardship allowance and there are differences between my right hon. and my hon. Friends and the Ministry about what the ceiling should be.
      During the Committee stage we urged that the ceiling should be higher than it is. But it is being improved under the Bill. We thought that up to that ceiling the special hardship allowance could be used as a vehicle for settling these partially disabled cases. The Joint Parliamentary Secretary replied:
      "I should now like to go a stage further, and take up what was said by the hon. Member for Sowerhy. He suggested that we should abolish the two-thirds rule and cover the whole difference, subject, again, to not exceeding the maxima applied under the special hardship allowance rules. We will certainly look at that suggestion, and let him know our conclusions."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 15th February, 1963; Vol. 671, col. 1711.]
      Usually, the Parliamentary Secretary is zealous and painstaking in letting us know his conclusions. But I regret that on this occasion I did not hear anything about his conclusions. I was waiting hourly to hear from the hon. Gentleman and to know the outcome of the consideration of those suggestions. The next thing I saw were the Amendments to the Bill put down for consideration in another place, and—the the Minister will sympathise with this point of view—when I looked at them I could not tell what conclusions, if any, had been reached by the Minister. I could not discern in the Amendments anything which related to the abolition
      1388
      of the two-thirds rule and the substitution of the special hardship allowance. I was just baffled by the complexity of the Amendments and felt that somewhere or other in words I had not detected the Joint Parliamentary Secretary had done what I had asked and that was why he had not written a note to me to say so. It turns out that that is not so and I have now lost faith in the Joint Parliamentary Secretary. I must desert this work, however, and follow his right hon. Friend's predecessor whom my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition has found is unshadowed. My shadow will no longer fall across the path of the Joint Parliamentary Secretary, nor for that matter the path of the Minister, but I have been permitted my last fling on this point about which my hon. Friends have felt so keenly.
      Can we be told why the Minister has spoiled this good ship for a ha'porth of tar? The simple point, as the Minister explained, is that a number of partially disabled men will not benefit from the improved supplementation under this Amendment because their heads have already bumped against the ceiling of the two-thirds limit. I do not of course deny that a number of partially disabled men will benefit under the supplementation because they are not at the moment, and may not be in future, restricted in the amount of supplementation by the operation of the two-thirds rule. I also admit that they will be the worst cases because in those cases the difference between the pre-accident earnings—I correct myself, the pre-accident rates of remuneration, which is rather different—and current remuneration is so wide that supplementation of the amount of workmen's compensation can take place within the new limits without hitting the ceiling of the two-thirds limitation.
      It is therefore in the less serious cases of partial disablement that the limitation will apply. I am bound to be frank with the House and to say that that is so. Nevertheless, the right hon. Gentleman will appreciate that when there is supplementation and supplementary allowances quite a large number of people will not get them. They will think there is some injustice in that they are not being given the full benefit

      1389
      of improvements extending over a wide field of other disablement cases. Not only is there that feeling of relative injustice—and everyone who has to deal with these matters knows that the comparative grievance is the bitterest of all —but they feel, with justice in my view, that there is no justification for hanging on at this date to the limitation of the two-thirds of the difference between pre-accident rates of pay and current rates of pay.
      There is, of course, incidentally, another grievance in these cases that the Act defines rates of remuneration as distinct from levels of earnings. The House knows that in recent years basic rates have not in many cases been any index of the level of earnings. Yet, for the purpose of comparison, the pre-accident rates of remuneration are written up to take account of changes since and compared with existing rates of remuneration and not with current earnings. So there is that added sense of injustice that the true comparison in terms of loss of income is not being made. I have made the point and we on this side of the House do not wish to appear ungrateful.
      I have given the Minister full praise for speedy and effective action in response to the demands of hon. Members on both sides of the House. At least, I hope that I have. His action was most welcome and, we may as well admit it, most unexpected. We cannot therefore get too angry with him at this late hour and on this point. Yet had he wished to part with the Bill crowned with glory, the recipient of fulsome praise from this side of the House, he would have done this job a little more completely than he has. I hope that we shall be told why he has not done so and what are the circumstances in the way. It cannot be cost. Thousands of people would be affected, but the cost would be relatively small. I can only assume that he has encountered some problems which he has found it difficult to overcome, but we thought that his approach was so bold and so speedy that he would bulldoze all difficulties out of the way and bring forward Amendments which would give complete satisfaction.
      Subject to that, we welcome the new Clause and are glad to see it embodied
      1390
      in the Bill. All those concerned will be looking forward to the benefits which the Bill will give. No doubt some of my hon. Friends will wish to say, and certainly they feel, that these changes have brought great relief in many areas in which there are large congregations of old cases affected by the new Clause. I thank the Minister and bid him a fond farewell.
      Mr. Edwin Wainwright (Deanne Valley): Let me first add to the compliments paid by my hon. Friend the Member for Sowerby (Mr. Houghton) to the Minister for bringing forward these substantial benefits to certain sections of people on partial compensation.
      I want to deal with those men on partial compensation who were involved in particular kinds of work, especially in the coal mining industry, before 1948. The differences in the work were very great from pit to pit, district to district, and week to week, and it was always difficult to say what a man's average earnings would be at any given time. A man's wages would vary with the kind of work. One week he might be ripping coal at a reasonable rate of pay and another week he might be machine-minding. In yet another week he might be working at a lower rate of pay.
      At the time of his accident he might be at very low rate, and in that case he might be lucky to be paid any partial compensation. In any case, it would be only a small amount of partial compensation because of the two-thirds limit. The difference between his pre-accident job and the rate of pay for the post-accident work might be such as to bring him very little in the way of compensation. He will get no benefit from the increases granted to the partially compensated, and I ask the Minister to look at this again, because it is important that we should be as fair to these people as possible.
      10.30 p.m.
      These people have suffered an injury and disablement. For years they have had little compensation for it. Consequently they feel embittered. We cannot blame them for that. If they had not suffered an accident, their earnings today would be far greater than they are now getting. I am thinking of men who were young in 1948 and at the peak of their earning capacity. They sustained

      1391
      a slight accident. At that time their wages were probably low. In 1948 many pits were operating in such a way that wages were low. But now they have to work on the haulage or on what we call push-button jobs and, instead of earning £20 a week, they are now earning £1 a week. This is a great loss to them. As their wages were low prior to their accident, the two-thirds limit operates and they are not getting much partial compensation. This increase will be of no benefit to them.
      I hope that the Minister will examine this question. There are thousands of these cases, but there are not many thousands. They are entitled to the same treatment as is given under the Industrial Injuries Act. They are disabled. Their enjoyment of life is impaired. If they are not considered now, they must be considered in the near future. I hope it is not too late for the Minister to do something about them even now. I could quote cases of men who have lost a leg. Their wages now are higher than their pre-accident earnings. They lost a leg when men were working short-time in the coalmines. These are men who ought now to be earning a good living in the pits or in any other industry but who do not get a penny even for the loss of a leg.
      This is a shocking indictment against society. We should give some consideration to these people. There are men who have lost other limbs and suffered disablement but get no disablement benefit. I meet such men frequently and they deeply resent the fact that nothing is done for them. The Minister has been helpful in making these Amendments to this important Bill, but these people are evidently to be left outside its scope. Men who were injured between 1924 and 1948 feel that they are being left out in the cold and are entirely forgotten. Of course, they are. They are not getting any recompense whatsoever for the injuries they sustained in industry, although other people are now being recompensed and receiving percentages under the National Insurance (Industrial Injuries) Act, 1948. These people think they are justified in demanding that something be done for them. If he cannot
      1392
      do anything now to improve the lot of these people I hope that the Minister will keep the matter in the front of his mind. If we do not do something for them it will not only be they who suffer but also their dependants.
      I am grateful for what the Minister has done, for he has come forward with some valuable Amendments. However, I urge him further to consider the points my hon. Friends and I have made, not just on behalf of those in the coal mining industry, but disabled workers throughout the country in all other industries who are being left out, neglected and forgotten.
      Lady Megan Lloyd George: I hope that the Government will accept the proposal made by my hon. Friend the Member for Sowerby (Mr. Houghton). We welcome the concession that has been made by the Minister in regard to the totally disabled—for previously there was an anomaly and an injustice—but why has the right hon. Gentleman continued to shut out from benefit the community we have been discussing? After all, had they come under the new dispensation the restriction of the two-thirds would not have applied to them. Thus, here again is an anomaly and an injustice.
      There is nothing sacrosanct about the two-thirds. It is not inviolable, and if the Government could give way on the totally disabled surely they could make a concession for the partially disabled? The principle of the disabled worker under the old Workmen's Compensation Act was that they were a race apart and that there was a difference between them and the workers who came under the Industrial Injuries Act. That principle has gone and the Government, having made the concession they have, have more or less swept away that principle.
      I urge the right hon. Gentleman to consider this second anomaly, for it brings a great deal of suffering to many people. As my hon. Friend the Member for Sowerby said, thousands of workers are affected by this. I understand that 7,000 in South Wales alone come in this category. Why does the right hon. Gentleman not make a clean sweep and get rid of this anomaly? Why

      1393
      does he not think again, for the same good purpose as he did when considering the totally disabled? The men about whom we are speaking have suffered injury and loss of remuneration and it is hard that they should suffer this additional sense of injustice.
      Mr. Bernard Taylor: I rise with mixed feelings, for I must express 80 per cent. gratitude to the Minister for the concession he has made and 20 per cent. regret that he has not gone far enough. There can be no doubt that the insertion of the right hon. Gentleman's Amendments has meant that the Bill of two or three weeks ago is quite different and is now considerably improved. Thus I add my praise to the right hon. Gentleman for what he has done on behalf of the people for who we have been campaigning.
      When the Clause moved by my hon. Friend the Member for Bedwellty (Mr. Finch) was being discussed, there was not only emotion and feeling but there was substantial argument about the fact that these people were being left out in the cold. Be it said to the everlasting credit of the Minister that evidently he was impressed not merely by the display of emotion and feeling but by the arguments that were put forward for these people who were injured or who contracted disease before the operation of the National Insurance (Industrial Injuries) Act in 1948. I have heard it said many times that an Englishman's word is his bond, but we have got to go a bit further tonight and say that a Scotsman's word is his bond. Not only has the Minister carried out his promise but he has acted very quickly. We are very grateful to him not only for his action but for the speed with which he has acted in connection with these old cases.
      I have no complaint at all about the supplement that is to be granted to the totals under the old Workmen's Compensation Act and under the benefit scheme. I have no complaint about the size of the increase that is to be given. I think it is very good, if for no other reason than that it brings them in line with those who are 100 per cent. disabled under the Industrial Injuries Act. Neither have I a word of criticism to make about the treatment of the partials under the benefit scheme. I remember that when
      1394
      supplement was granted to them for the first time there were difficulties, and the conclusion was arrived at that the best way to deal with the partials under the benefit scheme was a matter of rough justice.
      I believe that in the first instance they were granted a supplement of £1 a week, which was later raised to £1 7s. 6d. and under this Clause they are to have a further 15s. bringing the amount up to £2 2s. 6d. For that I am exceedingly grateful and join with my hon. Friend the Member for Sowerby in tendering my best thanks to the Minister for what he has done in this respect. I do not think there will be any complaint at all because these people, certainly the totals, are brought into parity with the 100 per cent. disabled under the Industrial Injuries Act.
      However, it would be remiss of me if I were not to join my hon. Friends the Members for Sowerby, Dearne Valley (Mr. Wainwright) and Carmarthen (Lady Megan Lloyd George) and say a word or two about the partially incapacitated who come under the Workmen's Compensation Act. That is the bone of contention. That is really the argument tonight. It spoils the generous gesture of the Ministry in connection with the other cases, whether they come under the Workmen's Compensation Act or the benefit scheme.
      I think it is time that we got rid of this two-thirds limit. It operates extremely harshly. I do not know why we should treat this two-thirds limit between pre-and post-accident earnings as a sacred cow. There is nothing sacrosanct about it.
      10.45 p.m.
      The people who suffer most as a result of the retention of the two-thirds limit are those who are worse off, those who had lower pre-accident earnings. For instance, there are partially incapacitated men under the Workmen's Compensation Act who have reached the ceiling of 50s., I think it is, but they have not exceeded the two-thirds of the difference between pre- and post-accident earnings, and they are to have the additional supplement of 20s. That is fine; no one complains about that. But what about the partially incapacitated man who not only had the misfortune to have an accident, like the

      1395
      other chap, but who had the bad luck to have it at a time when his earnings were very low? Not by any stretch of the imagination can such a man at any time reach the two-thirds difference between his pre- and post-accident earnings.
      Many of the men who had their accidents in the 'thirties are getting very old now, Naturally, their number is diminishing. But cases have come to our notice of men injured in the 'thirties when rates of pay were exceedingly low and, more than that, working time was very much below the six days a week customary then. Because of the operation of these two factors, their pre-accident earnings were exceedingly low.
      We know of people who have lost an arm, a leg, an eye, or suffered other grave disability, but, because of the circumstances to which I have referred, they can never hope to reach the two-thirds maximum between the pre- and post-accident earnings.
      I put this to the Minister in all seriousness and sincerity. I know of partially incapacitated men today who are receiving as little as 1s. a week partial compensation payment. Because that is two-thirds of the difference between pre- and post-accident earnings, they can never get more; neither will they receive this proposed supplement of 20s. On the other hand, I know of men who have reached the ceiling, the maximum amount of compensation of 50s., but that is not two-thirds of the difference between pre-and post-accident earnings. Although these men are receiving the 50s. compared with others, perhaps injured in the same pit, who have only 1s., the former will have the 20s. supplement and the man with Is. will not get a penny. There is an anomaly here.
      The Minister has gone a long way in dealing with the old cases. Their number is not great now, and it is diminishing. It would cost very little to do what we ask. I appeal to him, even at this late stage, to look at the matter again and sweep away the anomaly and injustice which exist between man and man, not through any fault of theirs but as a result of their circumstances at the time of their accidents.
      I hope also that the right hon. Gentleman has not forgotten the '20s industrial
      1396
      widow and the dependent and semi-dependent parents. If he has not already done so, I hope he will not be long in keeping his promise to submit their case to his advisory committee. Before much more time passes, I hope we shall have from him a similar generous approach to these people.
      Miss Margaret Herbison: I wish to add my congratulations to those which have flowed from this side of the House to the right hon. Gentleman. These Amendments show that perhaps on very rare occasions debate is really effective in this House and has some result. I have no doubt that it was the excellent case put by hon. Members on both sides of this House when we discussed a Clause which we moved that brought the Minister and the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster to decide that something must be done. I therefore welcome this new Clause as far as it goes.
      Now I come to the two-thirds earnings rule. The right hon. Gentleman will already have realised that it is on this point only that there is disappointment on this side of the House. So relatively few men and women are affected that he might have found it possible to include them in the Clause. It may be, on the other hand, that there is some serious technical difficulty to be overcome and that a solution could not be found quickly enough for inclusion in any of these Amendments. We hope that that is the only reason why he cannot at once get rid of the rule and that in a short time he will take the advice tendered tonight and on many other occasions.
      You, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, will remember that the constituency which you once represented, and which I now have the honour to represent, contains many mining villages. My hon. Friends have stated two reasons why the working of the two-thirds earnings rule is unfair. You will remember, Sir, that during the time you represented my constituency the workers were on short time. Indeed, earlier than that I can remember my brother being sent by my father to the post office to see the mine owners' notice in the window which would tell him whether they were both to work next day or not. Thus, if a man had an accident when he was working only two

      1397
      or three days a week in the late 1920s or early 1930s, he will be suffering considerably today under this rule.
      The same sort of thing applies to a man who was a surface worker when he had an accident. The majority of surface workers eventually go to the coal face to work, where there is more pay. If one considers the wage paid to a man working on the surface, when he had perhaps looked forward to becoming a coal face worker, one sees that this two-thirds rule is very unjust even today.
      I do not want to say any more about it, except that the Minister knows that there are many close-knit communities, and that round the corner in the old folk's huts there are men who are affected by the two-thirds earnings rule; men who are time-barred pneumoconiotic cases; and men who receive their benefits under the Industrial Injuries Act. These men talk about the benefits they are getting, and I assure the Minister that there has been real joy in some of these huts and round some of these corners at the decision we are discussing tonight. It has made many of them feel that the Government have some consideration for them. I am tonight echoing their thanks to the Minister, but the fact that so many of them are to be helped under this new Clause makes more stark the plea of those who are not to be helped, and I again stress the necessity for doing something about these people.
      This new Clause settles nothing in principle. It will bring many workers up to the level of those who receive their benefits under the Industrial Injuries Act, but if this Government are in office next year and they decide to bring in a new National Insurance Bill they can easily, as as happened before, leave out this type of case. In 1951 we had the time-barred totally disabled pneumoconiotics and those suffering from byssinosis brought in for the first time. In 1954 we had those partially disabled from these diseases brought in, and then, as the Minister said tonight, we had the special legislation of 1956 and 1961 in which we dipped into the Industrial Injuries Fund to bring the type of case that we have in this new Clause almost up to what the Industrial Injuries people were getting under the Industrial Injuries Act.
      1398
      I can remember as far back as 1955, before the election when I introduced a Private Member's Bill, having been fortunate in the Ballot, and tried to bring the time-barred and old compensation cases up to the level of the Industrial Injuries cases. Perhaps not tonight, but I hope soon, we shall decide this in principle. I know that there are great technical difficulties. I know that this is not an easy matter, but this is something which the Minister could send to his Advisory Committee for examination to see how he could integrate the cases that we have been discussing tonight, those covered by the new Clause, and those left out because of the two-thirds earnings rule.
      The Minister should send this problem to his Advisory Committee and ask it to examine how we can integrate these various groups into the provisions of the Industrial Injuries Act to ensure that they do not lag a year, or two years, or perhaps even longer, being those who receive their increases under the Industrial Injuries Act.
      I feel that I must once again thank the Minister on behalf of the many people who have expressed their gratitude for the decision he has taken.
      11.0 p.m.
      Mr. N. Macpherson: If I may speak again by leave of the House, I should like to thank hon. Members for the way in which they have received this new Clause. It is the case that one can never do everything that it would be possible to ask; and I understand the strong feeling that still exists that we have not managed to fill all the gaps. But I think that the House will appreciate that it is one thing to build on successive Acts which have been passed and bring the benefits under them up to the level of the industrial injuries ones. It is another thing to do what the Government has been urged to do, which is to alter a whole type of legislation in order to try to bring it into line with existing legislation.
      We are all conscious of this basic difficulty which exists. The old legislation was based on the loss of earnings —and the debate tonight has been on that aspect of the matter—whereas the present legislation is founded on loss of faculty. To slide the legislation based on loss of earnings into that based on

      1399
      loss of faculty would be a very difficult thing to do. I doubt whether it would completely solve the difficulty merely to alter the two-thirds rule. I appreciate that if the rule were altered people would be brought up to the maximum sooner and would be enabled to benefit more readily from the existing legislation. But we should then be basing the terms of the legislation not on loss of faculty, as in the existing legislation, but on the loss of earnings, which is in the old legislation.
      Mr. B. Taylor: There seems to be a weakness in that argument. Under the Workmen's Compensation Acts the "totals" are related to their earnings. They are receiving supplements out of the Industrial Injuries Fund. I do not think that it is impossible—and the time has arrived for doing so—that the partials" should be paid under the W.C.A. in the same way as the "totals," and what has been done for the "totals" out of the Industrial Injuries Fund could be done for the "partials."
      Mr. Macpherson: I recognised from the start that it would be much harder to deal with the "partials" than with the "totals." We have done our best to deal with the "partials" along the lines of existing legislation. But there is no question of a comparison of earnings in the case of the "totals," because they are not able to earn. They had already reached their maximum, and it was possible to build on the maxima for them. With the "partials" we are working on comparisons all the time between the level of remuneration at the time of the accident and what they are actually earning at the present time. It is this difficulty of trying to assimilate the "partials" to the different concept of the industrial injuries legislation which has baffled the House for so long. Even before 1948 some difficulties arose. In respect of the 1943 legislation the same kind of debate took place. This was before the time of any of the hon. Members who are present except perhaps the hon. Lady the Member fox Carmarthen (Lady Megan Lloyd George) and the hon. Member for Mansfield (Mr. B. Taylor). Lord Ingleby—as he now is—then said that he would look into the problem and try to find a solution to what had baffled everyone.
      1400
      It is not only the existing size of the problem—10,000 people are involved at present. There are also what are known as the "latents"—about 50,000—who, while suffering from a disability which may eventually give rise to a compensation claim, have found employment without loss of earnings at present. The line which has always been taken on this is that with the principle of the relief of hardship it is extremely difficult to assimilate the whole field and put everyone on the same basis, especially when we have this comparison to make between the level of earnings before the accident and the actual earnings at present.
      The fact is that the people whom the House has been discussing tonight still have their remedy under the Workmen's Compensation Act. That is not so for men on maximum rates, and this is why we make provision for them. As the earning power of the "partials" and the "latents" deteriorates, so their compensation can be reviewed upwards. Indeed, the Workmen's Compensation Act may be said to have a built-in provision adjusting compensation to changes in the level of earnings. Compensation is directly based on the difference between pre- and post-accident rates. Once these people reach the maximum level of compensation they will also benefit from the new provisions we have been discussing. I quite agree, and no doubt the hon. Member for Dearne Valley (Mr. Wainwright) will say, that one could take a short cut by making it the full difference between the two rates.
      Mr. Wainwright: It is not so easy to obtain reviews of cases as the right hon. Gentleman has suggested. For instance, a man can have had an accident and have been receiving partial compensation for a given period and then, because day wages have gone up but contract wages have not gone up, he cannot claim that his pre-accident notional average would have risen. Therefore, if he had not had the accident, he would be earning higher wages, but because of certain other factors, although he has had an accident he cannot get full compensation. There are certain anomalies in the Act. We plead with the right hon. Gentleman to do something about these things, because it was a very harsh and unjust Act

      1401
      which we should abolish in its entirety. It makes a bad impression on people injured in these days.
      Mr. Macpherson: The difficulty in abolishing it in entirety would be to find a just substitute for it in the absence of detailed information which would allow us to assess the loss of faculty. That is the difficulty we are in.
      I am bound to say that I am not altogether satisfied that hardship of the kind we are trying to alleviate is being suffered merely because those concerned do not receive supplementary allowances.
      The point has been made that "partials" on less than the maximum rates have been unable to get any benefit from the provisions for re-calculating loss of earnings. Several illustrations have been given of this, for example, the lower number of hours worked and the effect of technical developments, especially in the mining industry. But this is not a new problem. It was inherent in the provisions of the Workmen's Compensation Acts, and the difficulty is that it cannot be altered without reviving legislation which the House repealed over 15 years ago. There were various types of problems well-known in the Workmen's Compensation Acts days and these problems have always proved intractable.
      I must tell the House frankly—because I do not want to leave the impression that in going away to think about it we are any more likely to find a solution than Lord Ingleby was in 1943—that it is highly unlikely that any legislative solution can be found. The House will remember that employers are responsible for compensation under those Acts, and when issues of this kind arise it may be that there is room for a solution by negotiation—I recognise the difficulties and I know that it is not an easy matter —between them and the workers concerned. I am sorry that I cannot be more optimistic this evening, but it is a problem which has baffled the House for a long time.
      I am glad that we have been able at short notice to make undoubted improvements, and I am grateful to the House for the welcome which it has given to the new Clause.
      Mr. B. Taylor: Can the Minister answer my last question about industrial injuries widows and parents?
      Mr. Macpherson: That is really outside the new Clause.
      Question put and agreed to.

      Schedule 4.—(COMMENCEMENT, TRANSITIONAL PROVISIONS AND CONSTRUCTION.)
      Lords Amendment: In page 17, line 9, at end insert:
      "section (Allowances in respect of incapacities arising from pre-1948 employment)"
      Mr. N. Macpherson: I beg to move, That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment.
      This Amendment is consequential upon the new Clause to which the House has just agreed. It enables me to appoint a day for the coming into force of that new Clause, and the House is aware that I intend to make that appointed day the same day as that which is to be appointed for the long-term National Insurance benefits—namely, 27th May.
      Question put and agreed to.
      Lords Amendment: In page 18, line 40, at end insert:
      "Allowances in respect of incapacities arising from pre-1948 employment
      6.—(1) Where an allowance under the Workmen's Compensation and Benefit (Supplementation) Act 1956, or under the Industrial Diseases (Benefit) Acts 1951 and 1954, is or has been awarded before the increase date, the allowance shall, without any claim being made, become payable (except as respects any period falling before the increase date) at the higher weekly rate provided for by section (Allowances in respect of incapacities arising from pre-1948 employment) of this Act, and the award shall have effect accordingly.
      (2) Where any such award is made before the increase date, but after that date has been appointed, the award may provide for the allowance to be paid as from that date at the higher weekly rate.
      (3) In the foregoing provisions of this paragraph "the increase date" means the date appointed for the higher weekly rate to become effective under subsection (1) or subsection (3), as the case may be, of section (Allowances in respect of incapacities arising from pre-1948 employment of this Act).
      (4) Section 1 (4) of the Workmen's Compensation (Supplementation) Act 1951, so far as it prohibits the making of a scheme under that Act unless a draft of the scheme has been laid before Parliament and approved by a resolution of each House, shall not apply to any such scheme made before the expiration

      1403
      of the period of six months beginning with the date of the passing of this Act if the statutory instrument containing the scheme states that the scheme is made in consequence of this Act: but any statutory instrument containing a scheme which, by virtue of the foregoing provision, is not required to be laid and approved in draft as aforesaid before being made shall be subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of either House of Parliament."
      Mr. Macpherson: I beg to move, That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment.
      This Amendment is consequential upon the new Clause and makes the necessary transitional arrangements. It is fairly clear and I think that I need not detain the House by explaining it.
      Question put and agreed to.

      Schedule 5.—(REPEALS.)
      Lords Amendment: In page 20, line 44, column 3, at beginning insert "Section 1 (1) (3)".
      Mr. N. Macpherson: I beg to move, That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment.
      This and the next Amendment, in line 45, column 3, at the end to add "and paragraph 2", deal with repeals consequential upon the new Clause.
      Question put and agreed to.
      Subsequent Lords Amendment agreed to.

    Title
    Postponed Lords Amendment: In line 15, leave out "and".
    Mr. N. Macpherson: I beg to move, That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment.
    This Amendment and the next Amendment alter the Long Title of the Bill and are purely consequential on the Amendment which the House has already accepted.
    Question put and agreed to.
    Remaining Lords Amendment agreed to.

    Title

      CRIMINAL JUSTICE (SCOTLAND) [MONEY]
      Resolution reported,
      That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to amend the law of Scotland relating to the imprisonment and detention of offenders and other persons, to make further provision as to the treatment of prisoners and other persons committed to custody, including provision for their supervision within the British Islands after discharge, to alter the law relating to legal aid in criminal proceedings and to provide for the appointment of additional judges of the Court of Session, it is expedient to authorize—

      A. The payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of any increase attributable to the provisions of the said Act of the present Session in the sums payable under any other enactment out of the moneys so provided.

      B. The payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of any increase that may arise in the sums required to meet payments out of the Legal Aid (Scotland) Fund by reason of any amendment altering the pocedure under section 2 of the Legal Aid (Scotland) Act, 1949 for determining financial eligibility for legal aid in criminal proceedings.

      C. The charging on and issue out of the Consolidated Fund, and the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament, of any increase in the sums required respectively to be charged on and issued out of that Fund, or to be paid out of moneys so provided, which is attributable to the provisions of the said Act of the present Session increasing the maximum number of judges of the Court of Session who may be appointed.

      Resolution agreed to.

    WAYS AND MEANS
    [25th February]
    WAYS AND MEANS

      TELEVISION
      Resolution reported,
      That it is expedient to authorise the inclusion, in any Act of this Session to extend the period for which the Independent Television Authority are to provide television services, of provisions authorising or requiring the Authority to contract with programme contractors for payments to the Authority the amount and nature of which is determined by or under the Act, and provisions for any part of those payments to be remitted directly or indirectly, to the Exchequer.
      Resolution read a Second time.
      Question, That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution, put forthwith, pursuant to Standing Order No. 86 (Ways and Means Motions), and agreed to.

      LOCAL AUTHORITIES (LAND) [MONEY]
      [Queen's Recommendation signified]
      Considered in Committee under Standing Order No. 84 (Money Committees).
      [Sir WILLIAM ANSTRUTHER-GRAY in the Chair]
      Resolved,
      That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to make amendments of the law relating to functions of local authorities in relation to land to the like effect as those commonly made in local Acts; to enable local authorities to provide accommodation for keeping motor vehicles; to amend the provisions of the National Parks and Access to the Countryside Act 1949 relating to the treatment of derelict land; to amend the law with 'respect to the powers of municipal boroughs to use the general rate fund and borrow for non-statutory purposes; to apply Part. II of the Town and Country Planning Act 1959 to corporate land; and for purposes connected with the matters aforesaid, it is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of any increase attributable to the provisions of the said Act of the present Session in the sums payable out of moneys so provided under any other enactment.—[Mr. Niall Macpherson.]
      Resolution to be reported.
      Report to be received Tomorrow.

    MULTIPLE SCLEROSIS (TREATMENT)
    Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Hughes-Young.]
    11.15 p.m.
    Mr. H. Hynd: I am grateful to you, Mr. Speaker, for giving me this opportunity, even at such a late hour, to bring forward the subject of the treatment of multiple sclerosis. I apologise to the Minister for keeping him out of his bed, but I hope that he will be able to tell us something interesting.
    My purpose is to give the Minister an opportunity of clarifying the present position and to enable him, I hope, to give a word of comfort to the people who are so unfortunate as to suffer from this dread disease. Their number in this country is, I believe, at least 40,000. There is no need for me to dwell on the seriousness of this disease to the people who suffer from it and to their dependants.
    1406
    A Multiple Sclerosis Society has been formed to try to deal with the subject, and several organisations have been set up by the sufferers themselves in various parts of the country. No doubt other hon. Members like myself have received inquiries about the matter over a long period, and I am bound to say that the situation is somewhat obscure. That is why I hope it will be cleared up to some extent this evening.
    For about two years I have been trying to find out just exactly what is happening and what the Government are doing about this subject. In reply to Questions which I have asked in the House I have received the usual curt Answers. We are, of course, used to curt Answers from the Government Front Bench. The Answers which I received were undoubtedly incomplete—I might say ambiguous. Indeed, I might almost say that they were equivocal, but perhaps we can compromise on the current adjective and call them dusty answers.
    I wonder why the Minister has not been more forthright in telling the House just exactly what the position is. The net result, as far as I have been able to gather—and this is from the Answer I received from the Parliamentary Secretary on 28th January—is that there is at present no effective specific treatment for this disease. That seems to be the position to date.
    Two years ago my attention was drawn to an alleged cure by a Dr. Le Gac of the Pasteur Institute in Paris. I believe there is another institute in Belgium, under a Dr. Wuffaert, which gives treatment at rather high cost, I understand, to people from all over the world. I asked about the possibility of British patients being sent overseas for this treatment as there was apparently no possibility of their getting treatment in this country.
    The Parliamentary Secretary of that time told me in a letter of 3rd May, 1961, that there was no need for that because
    "All the drugs and facilities that may be needed for this treatment are available in this country,"
    and that
    "Any doctor can try the treatment."
    In my innocence I accepted that as being satisfactory, feeling for the moment

    1407
    until 1 read the correspondence later that what it said was that there was no treatment in this country but that, if any doctor cared to try it, it was available in the hospitals or at least the drugs and appliances were available in the hospitals. I did not then notice that the Parliamentary Secretary had omitted to say that that treatment involved a period in a hospital and that, as current British medical opinion did not agree that this treatment was efficacious, hospital treatment was not in fact available. I suppose that I ought to have read the letter more carefully, but it certainly misled me.
    There is no doubt that there are conflicting reports about the treatment being given on the Continent, but, as one of these bodies set up by sufferers from this disease in this country, calling itself "Multiple Sclerosis Treatment Investigation Ltd.", had offered some volunteer patients to act as guinea pigs for this treatment, I asked again whether some of these patients could not be sent either to Paris or to Belgium to try the treatment as an experiment, as nothing was being done here. The answer I got was that there is no power to pay for treatment outside the National Health Service.
    That reply puzzled me because my attention had been drawn to an Agreement signed at Strasbourg on 14th May of last year. It is called the "European Agreement on Mutual Assistance in the Matter of Special Medical Treatments and Climatic Facilities". It says that, if people are unable to obtain appropriate treatment in their country of residence, they can be sent to another country. They can be admitted to medical establishments or spas in another contracting country, so as to have treatment that they need which is not available in the territory of the contracting party where they reside. When I asked the Minister about this he gave me the surprising answer that it does not apply to this country. To say that I was surprised by that answer puts it mildly. I think I can say that I was flabbergasted because, if it does not apply to this country, why was the Agreement signed by this country? That is what I cannot understand. Anyhow, that all adds up to the fact that apparently there is no hope up to that point.
    What of the future? The sufferers themselves made another effort. They
    1408
    subscribed together and paid the expenses of a British virologist to go to Belgium to investigate this treatment. I gather that when this gentleman returned he was able to give certain information which has led to further research taking place in this country. The Parliamentary Secretary for Science gave me an Answer on 4th December last in which he said that research is going on supported by funds from the Medical Research Council and by contributions from the Multiple Sclerosis Society, the Nuffield Foundation and other charities. That opens up a rather wider question as to just what research is going on and how it is being financed.
    About an hour ago on television my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition spoke about research in this country being on a shoe-string. When I heard those remarks I immediately began to wonder if that applied to this subject. Is research into multiple sclerosis going on at a sufficient rate? Is it limited by financial considerations? Is multiple sclerosis being regarded as the Cinderella of medical research or is it getting its full importance? When the Government cut down the funds of the University Grants Committee last year, did that mean a cutting down of the funds available for research, and, if so, has that affected the amount of research being done on multiple sclerosis?
    This week two important articles appeared in the Daily Herald on the subject of medical research. I will refer to one of them because it deals with a unit in a famous London teaching hospital and gives a list of the sources from which its funds for medical research are obtained. It stated:
    "… out of £33,000 the British Government are contributing only £8,500."
    A professor is quoted as having said:
    "Without American money I would have to shut up shop."
    I regard that as unsatisfactory. We all agree that prevention is better—and, I would add, cheaper—than cure.
    I would, therefore, like some assurance that research on multiple sclerosis is receiving some measure of priority. Will the Minister state as clearly and as fully as possible just what the Government are doing to help to find a cure for this dreaded disease? Am I correct in think-

    1409
    ing that there is no proper treatment available now in this country or for British people abroad? Are the Government in touch with the research that is going on in other countries? In short, can the Minister hold out any hope to the thousands of people who are suffering from multiple sclerosis?
    11.28 p.m.
    The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health (Mr. Bernard Braine): I welcome the initiative of the hon. Member for Accrington (Mr. H. Hynd) in seeking tonight this short debate on the facilities at present available in this country for the treatment of multiple sclerosis and, in particular, what is being done by way of research.
    It is nearly four years since, in May, 1959, the House last debated this subject; on the initiative of Mr. Keegan, the former hon. Member for Nottingham, South. I recall that my predecessor, in replying to that debate, referred to the lines of research being pursued in our efforts to combat this disease. Let me say at once that it would give me the greatest pleasure if I could tell the House tonight that some striking advance has occurred since then. But, unhappily, this disease continues to defy the efforts of medical science to establish its cause and to provide a specific remedy.
    Multiple sclerosis or, as it is sometimes called, disseminated sclerosis, is one of the commonest organic diseases of the nervous system. It may help the House if I devote a few words to its nature and incidence. It usually starts early in adult life. It pursues a varied course of deterioration, followed sometimes by periods of improvement and sometimes ending in permanent paralysis. There is also a mild form of the disease, which is commoner than at one time was thought, in which the disease remains stationary for long periods. Although the disease is progressive in its nature, in the average case the expectation of life after diagnosis is as much as twenty years, which is more than used to be the case. In this country multiple sclerosis is responsible for about 900 deaths a year, but the total number who actually die from the disease and its complications is significantly higher. As for the total number of cases in this country at the present moment, the hon. Gentleman
    1410
    mentioned a figure; I must say it is not known precisely, but it certainly runs into many thousands.
    This disease, although comparatively little known, is therefore rightly regarded as a major scourge and one which must be made to yield to medical science if it is at all humanly possible. I am advised that the consensus of medical opinion is that there is no effective specific treatment for this disease at present. Its causation is wrapped in mystery. The value of the treatment measures which are available to sufferers in this country lies chiefly in the fact that they enable a proportion of them to remain at home or to return home after periods of in-patient treatment in hospital.
    As I have explained, the course of the disease is typically erratic. There are periods of remission when the patient's condition is stable or even showing signs of improvement, and it is this which makes it particularly difficult to evaluate new forms of treatment which are put forward from time to time.
    The two forms of treatment which have aroused most interest in this country in recent years are the Russian vaccine treatment and the Le Gac method. I know the hon. Gentleman has shown great interest in the latter for some considerable time. Some ten years ago Russian workers reported the isolation of a virus closely related to the rabies virus in cases of multiple sclerosis, and prepared a vaccine from it. This vaccine was investigated by the Medical Research Council at the request of my right hon. Friend the then Minister of Health. I am bound to say that the result was disappointing.
    My right hon. Friend was advised that there was no indication of any causal relationship between the virus and the disease of multiple sclerosis. There were no reports of controlled clinical trials of the value of the vaccine and there was no evidence that the vaccine was really of any benefit in alleviating the condition. It is our impression that the Russian scientists themselves have recently become more doubtful of the basis on which this treatment was founded. Nevertheless, limited quantities of the vaccine have been imported into this country by individual patients when their medical advisers have confirmed the diagnosis and

    1411
    have certified that they will undertake and accept full clinical responsibility for treatment on these lines.
    The method developed by Dr. Le Gac comprises the administration of antibiotic drugs of the broad spectrum type—that is, drugs attacking a wide range of disease agents over a wide front—given in prolonged courses aimed at eradicating a supposed infective cause of the disease. This is coupled with a variety of supporting measures aimed at relieving the symptoms and physical disability of individual patients. These supporting measures comprise drugs and physical treatment such as hydrotherapy and other forms of physiotherapy which are available in this country.
    I am advised that no confirmation has been obtained here in Britain of the presence of the infective cause of the disease suggested by Dr. Le Gac. Doctors in this country with special knowledge of multiple sclerosis are fully aware of the clinical and other evidence put forward about his treatment by Dr. Le Gac. Indeed, whenever the Ministry has received inquiries from individuals about the Le Gac method, we have sent particulars, including the original Le Gac publications, to the inquirers. So far, we know of only one doctor in this country—a consultant in physical medicine—who has organised and put in hand treatment on the lines laid down by Dr. Le Gac. This has been a recent development, and treatment of the first patients started only a few weeks ago. It is, therefore, much too early to come to any conclusions. I must say that it is bound to be some time before any conclusions can be drawn, for the reason I gave earlier, namely, that it is difficult to evaluate methods of treatment because of the erratic nature of the course which this disease typically follows.
    I have not the least desire to sound discouraging, but I have to tell the hon. Gentleman that neurological specialists working on the problems of multiple sclerosis in this country and on the Continent are fully aware of the methods of the Le Gac treatment and of the claims made for it, and in their opinion it does not offer a cure for the disease. This view is shared by the Multiple Sclerosis Society, whose words on this subject I feel I should quote:
    1412
    "Leading neurological specialists working on the problems of multiple sclerosis in the United Kingdom, France and Belgium are aware of this treatment and of the claims made for it. Their opinion is that it is not effective against multiple sclerosis."
    The hon. Gentleman has asked me previously in Questions—I think I should refer to this in order to clear the matter up—whether persons suffering from the disease can obtain treatment outside this country. Can the Government help sufferers to get treatment by the Le Gac method or any other method overseas? My right hon. Friend has no powers under the principal National Health Service Act to arrange this. He has powers under the National Health Service Act, 1951, to arrange treatment abroad for persons suffering from respiratory tuberculosis, but this provides no parallel because these arrangements were made because of a temporary shortage of beds here and in the sure knowledge that there were proven methods of treatment available overseas. They were terminated some years ago. While all of us share the hon. Gentleman's natural anxiety that no effort shall be spared to bring relief to those who suffer from this crippling disease, I am sure the House understands that it is not for the Minister of Health to pronounce on forms of treatment or to advise doctors on how they should treat their patients. These are, clearly, matters for medical specialists and for them alone.
    In our present state of knowledge about this disease, it is natural and right for the hon. Gentleman to direct our attention to the question of research. Although medical research has not yet managed to provide any pointers to either the cause or the treatment of the disease, a great deal of work is now in hand directed at a number of points of attack. This work is increasing our knowledge of the various branches of medical science where answers to the problems thrown up by the disease may be found, and it shows some signs of promise.
    I assure the hon. Gentleman that there is no question of research being conducted on a shoe-string. In the last financial year, the Medical Research Council spent about £12,000 in supporting work directly related to subjects bearing on the disease. That is an advance on the amount of money made

    1413
    available in earlier years. In the current financial year, it is estimated that expenditure will be very nearly twice as high. In addition to specific research projects which are being directly supported in this way, the Medical Research Council is undertaking a very broadly based programme of fundamental research which may provide leads of value to work on multiple sclerosis.
    We are laymen here, and it would serve little purpose if I were to enumerate the various kinds of fundamental research and clinical investigation being conducted now in this field. We are scarcely equipped to evaluate it. But this debate does enable me to say that this is not essentially a problem of money. It is a problem of ideas. No suitable application for a research grant for work in this field has been rejected by the Medical Research Council in recent years, and the Government have made it abundantly clear that any promising line of research will receive adequate financial support from official sources.
    In this connection, I should mention that the Multiple Sclerosis Society has been spending increasing amounts on research into the disease. I should also mention the research taking place with the support of university and hospital endowments and with aid from the regional hospital boards at a number of hospitals throughout the country. In addition, during the past few years, the Nuffield Foundation has been making sizeable grants to the Departments of Neurology and Neuropathology at Oxford in respect of a particular line of research.
    However, we must face the fact that at present there is no effective specific treatment for the disease, and until such treatment becomes generally available we must ensure that patients have such treatment and facilities as can best help to support them in their condition. In general, patients are best looked after in their familiar home surroundings under the regular care of the family doctor and with specialist assistance provided by the hospital service from time to time.
    We are able to do a great deal through the health and welfare services to help patients in their homes, and tribute was paid to this by the Multiple Sclerosis
    1414
    Society in one of its recent reports. Sufferers from the disease are also eligible for the welfare services provided by the local authorities. Apart from advice and guidance, the loyal authorities can offer a visiting service which can bring comfort and encouragement to disabled persons at home, help with occupational activities for those who are confined to their homes, and also help with the provision of holidays.
    I should like to refer to the contribution made by the Society, whose assistance to medical research I have mentioned. Through its branches and groups all over the country, it stimulates mutual help, provides comradeship and brings fresh interests and hope into the lives of those suffering from the disease. Like so many of the dedicated voluntary societies that we have in this country, it does a splendid job, and I think this a good opportunity to pay tribute to it.
    Hospital treatment is, of course, available for those who become so disabled as to need specialist and nursing services that only a hospital can effectively provide, or whose circumstances are such that they cannot properly be looked after at home. All general practitioners are able to call upon the services of a general physician or neurologist at a hospital for those of their patients who require specialist treatment or advice.
    One of the problems encountered in hospitals has arisen from the fact that while there are comparatively few young chronic sick, a high proportion of them are patients suffering from multiple sclerosis. It is natural that the young chronic sick should wish to be nursed with others of their own age group rather than find themselves in a very small minority among comparatively large numbers of elderly patients in a large hospital. Unfortunately, to bring them all together into special units would often entail their moving away from relatives and friends.
    Even so, we have asked the regional hospital boards to find out in each of their areas haw many young chronic sick patients there are and to consider whether they could be grouped together in one or more hospitals. In this way we hope that sufferers from multiple sclerosis and other diseases that disable patients comparatively early in life will he nursed

    1415
    in congenial company within the hospital service.
    As the House will have gathered from what I said, and indeed what the hon. Gentleman said, multiple sclerosis remains one of the most intractable of the diseases with which man is faced. It offers a challenge to medical science, and we can but hope that a break-through will be achieved. It is borne by many with great patience and cheerfulness. Only a few gifted people can join in the great adventure of research which we all so fervently hope will prove fruitful, but I think we all join in saluting the
    1416
    spirit with which the disease is so bravely met.
    Mr. Hynd: If a doctor in this country wants to try the Russian vaccine, is it available under the National Health Service?
    Mr. Braine: No, partly because it is a vaccine and because, as I have indicated, medical opinion in this country does not believe that it is efficacious for this purpose.
    Question put and agreed to.
    Adjourned accordingly at fourteen minutes to Twelve o'clock.

ROYAL AIR FORCE
  Thor Missiles
  Thor Missiles
  V-bomber Force
  V-bomber Force
  Blue Steel
  Blue Steel
  Transport Force
  Transport Force
  Vulcan Mk. II Bomber (Cost)
  Vulcan Mk. II Bomber (Cost)
ROADS
  Lighting Columns
  Lighting Columns
  Bridport
  Bridport
  Marlow Bridge
  Marlow Bridge
  A.1 (Gosforth)
  A.1 (Gosforth)
  Motorways
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  Snow-Clearing Machines (Wales and Monmouthshire)
  Snow and Ice (Clearance)
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  A.19 (County Durham)
  A.19 (County Durham)
  London-Yorkshire Motorway (Leicestershire)
  London-Yorkshire Motorway (Leicestershire)
  Eastern Bypass, Cardiff
  Eastern Bypass, Cardiff
  Road Marking (Reflectorised Materials)
  Road Marking (Reflectorised Materials)
  Green Man Junction, Leyton
  Green Man Junction, Leyton
  No. 1 Bridge Street (Car Parking)
  No. 1 Bridge Street (Car Parking)
  Dutch River Bridge, Rawcliffe
  Dutch River Bridge, Rawcliffe
  Speed Limit, Kempsey
  Speed Limit, Kempsey
  Talgarth Road, London (Land)
  Talgarth Road, London (Land)
  Western Avenue (Hillingdon Circus)
  Western Avenue (Hillingdon Circus)
  Residential Streets (Lorry Parking)
  Residential Streets (Lorry Parking)
  Ring Road, Stockton-on-Tees
  Ring Road, Stockton-on-Tees
TRANSPORT
  Road Accidents
  Road Accidents
  Drivers (Night Vision)
  Drivers (Night Vision)
  Diesel Fuels (Sulphur Content)
  Diesel Fuels (Sulphur Content)
  Driving Tests
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  Highways Act, 1959 (Courts of Inquiry)
  Highways Act, 1959 (Courts of Inquiry)
  Commercial Vehicles (Testing)
  Commercial Vehicles (Testing)
  Students (Highway and Traffic Engineering)
  Students (Highway and Traffic Engineering)
RAILWAYS
  Power Supplies
  Power Supplies
  Railway Stations
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  Passenger Travel (Classes)
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  Branch Lines (Closure)
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  Rolling Stock (Vacuum Brakes)
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  Express Trains
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  Railways Board (Report)
  Railways Board (Report)
  Brecon-Moat Lane
  Brecon-Moat Lane
SHIPPING
  Nuclear Propulsion
  Nuclear Propulsion
  Tees Port
  Tees Port
  North Atlantic Passenger Liner
  North Atlantic Passenger Liner
  Port Facilities (Iron and Steel Industry)
  Port Facilities (Iron and Steel Industry)
  Flags of Convenience
  Flags of Convenience
EMPLOYMENT
  Bilston and Dudley
  Bilston and Dudley
  Shipbuilding Industry (Working Party)
  Shipbuilding Industry (Working Party)
  Middlesex
  Middlesex
  Wolverhampton
  Wolverhampton
  Norwich
  Norwich
  Leyton
  Leyton
  North-East
  North-East
  Western Isles
  Western Isles
  Registered Unemployed (Figures)
  Registered Unemployed (Figures)
  Stoke-on-Trent
  Stoke-on-Trent
  Sutton-in-Ashfield
  Sutton-in-Ashfield
  Midlands Region
  Midlands Region
  Trainees (Allowances)
  Trainees (Allowances)
  CUBA
  CUBA
  EUROPEAN FREE TRADE ASSOCIATION (SPAIN)
  EUROPEAN FREE TRADE ASSOCIATION (SPAIN)
AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD
  Oysters (American Tingle)
  Oysters (American Tingle)
  European Free Trade Association
  European Free Trade Association
MINISTRY OF DEFENCE
  Defence White Paper
  Defence White Paper
ROYAL NAVY
  Ships (Scrapping)
  Ships (Scrapping)
BRITISH ARMY
  4th Independent Parachute Brigade Group
  4th Independent Parachute Brigade Group
  Officers (Widow's Pension)
  Officers (Widow's Pension)
  Senior Officers
  Senior Officers
SCIENCE
  Marine Nuclear Propulsion
  Marine Nuclear Propulsion
  Strontium 90
  Strontium 90
HOME DEPARTMENT
  Advisory Committee on Service Candidates
  Advisory Committee on Service Candidates
  Civil Defence
  Civil Defence
MINISTRY OF AVIATION
  P.1154
  P.1154
NATIONAL FINANCE
  Hospital Houses, Scotland (Rating Appeals)
  Hospital Houses, Scotland (Rating Appeals)
  Defence White Paper
  Defence White Paper
  Fuel Oil (Tax)
  Fuel Oil (Tax)
  Rural Transport
  Rural Transport
NORTH BORNEO AND SARAWAK
  Federation of Malaysia
  Federation of Malaysia
EDUCATION
  School Building Programme
  School Building Programme
LOCAL GOVERNMENT
  R.A.F. Station, Hornchurch
  R.A.F. Station, Hornchurch
  Rating Revaluation (Dorset)
  Rating Revaluation (Dorset)
PUBLIC BUILDING AND WORKS
  Steel Economy Bulletin
  Steel Economy Bulletin
SCOTLAND
  Herring (Minch Summer Fishery)
  Herring (Minch Summer Fishery)
  Betting Shops
  Betting Shops
  Haddock (Isle of Lewis Area)
  Haddock (Isle of Lewis Area)
TRADE AND COMMERCE
  Stoke-on-Trent
  Stoke-on-Trent
  Bletchley
  Bletchley
  Import Duties
  Import Duties
  Development Districts (Additions)
  Development Districts (Additions)

Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock, The CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Chichester

EQUIPMENT OF NATO FORCES
2.35 p.m.
VISCOUNT MASSEREENE AND FERRARD: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are satisfied that collaboration between the NATO nations is effective in securing for the NATO forces the best equipment available without regard to the country of manufacture.]
THE FIRST LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY (LORD CARRINGTON): My Lords, the responsibility for equipping the NATO forces rests with the NATO nations concerned. Her Majesty's Government fully support efforts made internationally between the NATO nations to ensure that NATO forces are equipped with the best equipment available, from whatever source. There is, naturally, a tendency for nations to support their own national projects. Nevertheless, progress is being made in the field of interdependence.
VISCOUNT MASSEREENE AND FERRARD: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his Answer, but may I ask him whether he is aware that for some years past there have been people who have thought that certain British military equipment has been rejected in favour of inferior American equipment? I will not go into instances, but there has been rather that impression throughout the country.
LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, the Americans have a very large armaments industry, and I suppose that no Government is ever content that enough of its equipment is being bought by its Allies. But having regard to the difficulties in this particular sphere, I think that Her Majesty's Government can be satisfied.
LORD OGMORE: My Lords, may I ask the First Lord whether his attention was drawn some time ago to the speech of General Gruenther, who said that the only equipment in NATO which was standardised was the air in the tyres of the jeeps? Is he also aware that General Norstad was most dissatisfied with the rate of progress of standardisation; and is it not time that Her Majesty's Government and the other fourteen nations really took this problem seriously?
LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, I do not think the noble Lord should underestimate the difficulties, and I think that he is underestimating the difficulties a little. I think that we are getting on. For example, the Germans have bought a British gun; we have the recent agreement over the P.1127, and we also buy guns from some of the other NATO countries. I think that this must be allowed to develop slowly and that progress at the moment is not entirely unsatisfactory.
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, would the First Lord bear in mind the failure of the Government in the past to equip our Forces properly? We should be delighted for them to have modern equipment, coming from anywhere. Would he bear in mind, now that the Government's policy of recruiting appears to be successful, that he will have to make bigger efforts to get the Army of the Rhine and other NATO forces properly equipped.
LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, I am interested to have had a preview of the noble Lord's speech for the Defence debate.

BAN ON IMPORTATION OF CHAROLLAIS COWS
2.38 p.m.
LORD WALSTON: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government when it is proposed to review the present regulations prohibiting the importation from France of Charollais cows and heifers.]
THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD (LORD ST. OSWALD): My Lords, the control of imports of livestock is necessary, as I am sure the noble Lord will agree, in the interests of animal health, and my right honourable friend sees no justification for varying it in present circumstances.
LORD WALSTON: My Lords, is the noble Lord not aware that the imports which have already taken place of Charollais cows and heifers under Ministry auspices have been carried out in full accordance with the quarantine regulations, and, therefore, that there is no reason on that score why females should not be allowed to come in? At the same time, may I ask the noble Lord whether he is aware that there is a demand from Canada and the United States for purebred Charollais cattle form this country, if we can produce them, and that by the refusal to allow the importation of Charollais cows and heifers we are, in fact, being denied the opportunity of quite a valuable addition to our dollar exports from the farming industry?
LORD ST. OSWALD: My Lords, the noble Lord is, of course, aware that the purpose of the trials now taking place is not to establish the breed in this country. We are awaiting the results of these trials, but they will not be available yet. In the light of the results we shall report to Parliament and the country. I think it is too early to anticipate any decisions which may come as a result of the trials.
LORD WALSTON: My Lords, would not the noble Lord agree that while we are awaiting the results of these trials we are possibly losing the possibility of building up a reputation and an export
80
to other countries? At the same time, would he not agree that it is somewhat contrary to the philosophy expressed, as I understand it, by his own Party, that private enterprise should be allowed the freedom to burn its own fingers, if it so wishes, without interference from either bureaucracy or red tape to prevent it from so doing?
LORD ST. OSWALD: My Lords, the noble Lord's Question is in the context of animal health, and I have answered him in the context of animal health. We shall await the results of these trials to see what then can be brought to bear as an argument. But until then, as I said earlier, my right honourable friend sees no reason for varying the regulations as they stand.
EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLS-BOROUGH: My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether there has yet been any refusal by countries who have always imported a prime pedigree stock from us because there are now under trial in this country animals from a country which has no effective answer to foot-and-mouth disease?
LORD ST. OSWALD: My Lords, I am not aware of any such refusal.
LORD WISE: My Lords, would the noble Lord inform me whether France restricts in any way the importation of our own pure-bred or cross-bred heifers and cows?
LORD ST. OSNATALD: My Lords, I think not, although, of course, I am not responsible for such regulations. The point I think the noble Earl the Leader of the Opposition was making was that this country benefits considerably from our reputation as a disease-free country, and it is for that reason that we are very careful what we import in the form of livestock from other countries.
LORD FORBES: My Lords, could we have an assurance that this matter will be reviewed, particularly because it is causing considerable concern among farmers that progress is being retarded?
LORD ST. OSWALD: My Lords, what I have already said to the noble Lord, Lord Walston, stands: we are awaiting the results of the trials. I do not think I can say to-day when we shall be able to judge from the results what future policy should be.

THE COMMON MARKET NEGOTIATIONS
2.45 p.m.
EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will publish in advance of the debate on March 6 full details of the provisional agreements arrived at in Brussels daring the negotiations with the European Economic Community.]
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (THE EARL OF HOME): My Lords, as I informed the noble Earl on February 13, preparations are being made for a history of the negotiations, but I cannot yet give a date on which this might be published. Nor can I yet say whether or not it will include the texts of the provisional agreements reached during the negotiations, which are documents confidential to the conference as a whole and to the seven Governments which participated in it. As I said on February 13, I want to help the noble Earl and the House to have the fullest information possible, and I propose to circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT references to the White Papers and statements on the subject, which contain the substance of all the provisional agreements which were reached.
Following are the references referred to:—
List of White Papers:

Cmnd. 1565 Misc 14, 1961.

Cmnd. 1767 Misc 20, 1962.

Cmnd. 1790 Misc 21, 1962.

Cmnd. 1805 Misc 25, 1962.

Cmnd. 1836

Cmnd. 1838 Misc 33, 1962.

Cmnd. 1847 Misc 36, 1962.

Cmnd. 1882 Misc 37, 1962.

Cmnd. 1910 Misc 38, 1962.

Dates of Statements:

May 16, 1962;

May 31, 1962;

July 2. 1962;

July 23, 1962;

July 30, 1962;

November 22, 1962;

January 24, 1963;

January 30, 1963.

EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, I am obliged to the Foreign Secretary for his reply, and I shall look very carefully at what he circulates in the OFFICIAL REPORT. I have very kindly had sent me these various White Papers from time to time, but what is conspicuous about them is the absence from them of what we ought to know. I do not think that discussions on matters which concern the British people, as they do affect them, ought to be confidential just because negotiations have broken down in this matter in the Brussels talks.
THE EARL OF HOME: My Lords, my difficulty is that I do not quite know what the noble Earl is after. Any agreements that were reached at Brussels were provisional and conditional upon the whole agreement being reached. My right honourable friend would then have to decide whether, on balance, it was worth accepting the whole or rejecting it. Whether, in the circumstances of the complete breakdown of the talks, it is desirable to publish provisional arrangements which concern the Commonwealth, which were confidential in the exchanges between Her Majesty's Government and Commonwealth Governments, and which concerned agriculture in this country, I think requires a lot of consideration. I should like to give it much more consideration than I have been able to up to now.
LORD WILLIAMS OF BARNBURGH: My Lords, does the noble Earl not think that the nation are entitled to know to what extent Her Majesty's Government were willing to give away what the nation perhaps thinks we ought to retain, and ought not that information to be made available to us?
THE EARL OF HOME: My Lords, I think the noble Lord ought to give this a good deal of consideration. In certain circumstances, if we had secured a complete agreement it might have been worthwhile doing this, that, or the other. But we have not secured the agreement, the negotiations have been broken off and will not be resumed, so far as we can see ahead. Therefore, what one would be doing, if we were to do as we are asked, publish the talks on provisional agreements, would be to publish the texts of agreements which in certain circumstances could have been adopted but

83
which now cannot be adopted. I am not at all sure that that is a wise thing to do.
LORD WILLIAMS OF BARNBURGH: My Lords, of course the noble Earl will agree that what is important to those who are deeply interested in this subject is to what extent Her Majesty's Government were prepared to give away what are regarded as vital principles connected with our agricultural policy.
THE EARL OF HOME: My Lords, I do not think I agree with the noble Lord's premise at all. Everything would have depended on the final outcome of the negotiations, and there was still, for instance, the question—the big question—as to what arrangements we might have made about New Zealand. I do not know what arrangements we could have made: I hope that they would have been satisfactory. That is one side of it. The agricultural side is another. I am not saying that we do not want to publish the substance of the negotiations and the provisional arrangements—and they are really in the White Papers which the noble Earl has in his hand. What I am not at all sure about is the form in which we should produce the final history of the negotiations.
EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, I see what the Foreign Secretary is driving at. On the other hand, when he referred to the Commonwealth, some of the information in these Papers includes successes which were obtained in getting what the Commonwealth wanted with regard to tea duty, jute and things of that kind. Did they give permission for their results to be published; or what happened in that case? Surely there is nothing really confidential at this stage which ought to be withheld from the people of this country. How can we judge day by day, as we go along, whether or not what the Government are doing now is right unless we know what they actually did up to the date of the breakdown of negotiations?
THE EARL OF HOME: My Lords, I think the noble Earl has a point here, and certainly I think Parliament should be aware of the substance of the provisional arrangements which were made.
84
But I must insist that these were all the time dependent on the whole arrangement being satisfactory—all the time. That was always understood, and Parliament would have had to judge the whole effect and not on one or other provisional arrangement. Therefore, when we present the history of the negotiations we must be quite sure that we do not (and I take it the noble Earl does not want us to do this himself) convey the impression that because we were able to arrive at a provisional arrangement on something, pending the successful conclusion of negotiations, we are necessarily committed to the same kind of arrangement in the future.
EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, I am much obliged, and I certainly do not want to do that. On the other hand, we have to face great problems in regard to British agriculture within the next few weeks. We have to consider the Price Review and what the promises are for the future. Yet we know practically nothing except the one general statement that we were willing, apparently, to adopt the system of agriculture which prevails in the European Economic Community.

STRONTIUM 90 LEVELS IN FOOD
2.52 p.m.
VISCOUNT CALDECOTE: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are taking precautionary measures to protect the public against an increase of strontium 90 in diet.]
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL AND MINISTER FOR SCIENCE (VISCOUNT HAILSHAM): My Lords, levels of strontium 90 remain well below the limits prescribed by the Medical Research Council. Nevertheless, as a long-term precaution, Her Majesty's Government have decided to set up an experimental pilot plant to examine the problems in the removal of strontium 90 from milk by an ion-exchange process. The Agricultural Research Council have accordingly arranged for a pilot plant to be designed and constructed at the

85
National Institute for Research in Dairying at Shinfield, near Reading. Advantage will be taken of the results of the experimental work already conducted in the United States of America.
VISCOUNT CALDECOTE: My Lords, may I thank the noble Viscount for his Answer and say that I am sure that it will give confidence and satisfaction to the British public.
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL: My Lords, may I ask the noble Viscount what value his advisers attach to the sweets which it has been announced are going to be distributed and which are advertised as being an antidote to strontium 90?
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, that is a more difficult question. It does not, strictly, arise from the original Question, but I will do my best to answer the noble Lady impromptu. Of course, it is logical that an ingestion of inert strontium, which is an element found in nature, would prevent, other things being equal, an ingestion of strontium 90. Owing to the facts of life, which include the periodic table, calcium would almost certainly do as well, and sweets, of course, can cause dental caries, as most people know. This is a purely private venture. There is a certain logic behind it but I neither wish to depreciate it nor to endorse it myself.
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL: My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord, in view of his answer (I presume, of course that he read the details of this in the weekend Press) whether he will recall that certain eminent scientists supported the proposition that these sweets ought to be effective?
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, I read the week-end Press and I have had this information with me for months. It has a certain logic behind it. Calcium would do as well; and as calcium, in any event, is an ingredient in bread, because we add it to bread nowadays, I should have thought that the necessity for these sweets was not absolutely demonstrated. As regards eminent scientists, of course they are entitled to express their own opinion, but I think parents need not feel that this is de rigeur for their children. I personally would feel that the dangers of dental caries in sweets were greater than the dangers from fall-out.

SCOTTISH PULP MILL (WATER SUPPLY) ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL
Read 3ª (according to Order), and passed.

SCIENTIFIC POLICY
2.55 p.m.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM VISCOUNT HAILSHAM rose to move to resolve, That this House takes note of the Report of the Advisory Council on Scientific Policy, 1961–62 (Cmnd. 1920) and the support by Her Majesty's Government of civil scientific and technological research and development. The noble and learned Viscount said: My Lords, I should like, first, to acknowledge the courtesy of noble Lords from the opposite Benches and, in particular, if he will permit me to do so, the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, for allowing me this year to put down the Motion in our annual debate on science, and thus, in some sense, to have the initiative in discussion. This is the only occasion during the year upon which I have the opportunity of speaking to either House of Parliament upon science as a whole, and I am grateful to the noble Lord for giving me the opportunity this year of doing so in this way. If I may say so, I intend to utilise my right of reply to answer particular points in the debate, but in opening I should like to make some general remarks.
I chose the Report of the Advisory Council on Scientific Policy this year simply as a point of reference. It contains, as noble Lords will be aware, a number of extremely interesting topics upon which your Lordships may wish to dilate; and in particular we are fortunate in having among us this year the Chairman of the Council in the person of the noble Lord, Lord Todd, whom I hope we shall hear, with his own unrivalled authority, putting forward his own commentary upon the Report and dilating upon any subjects outside it that he feels inclined to do. However, so much has happened since the Report was published and since the year to which the Report refers that I feel that my own speech is inevitably going to be as much a postscript as a commentary. I hope, therefore, that this debate will be of the

87
widest possible kind and that it will include the Report not only of the Advisory Council but of the four Research Councils and of the wide fields outside the area of the Advisory Council and the Research Councils, within the general ambit of science but outside the field of my own special responsibilities.
The other day the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, told me that I had the endearing quality of discovering the obvious which has already been known to many people for a long time. The circumstances of that debate were such that I was not sure that this was intended as an unqualified compliment. Nevertheless, I took it as a very great compliment indeed; because, in the increasingly neurotic and humourless Britain of which we are all unaccountably a part it is often only the truth which seems in need of publicity. Only the obvious is not news, and, therefore, it is the obvious which stands peculiarly in need of emphasis. What is even stranger, by a curious paradox, when the child, after examining the Emperor's clothes, or the want of them, finally blurts out the obvious truth, the mere utterance reverberates around society with quite unpredictable effect. Thus, the obvious sometimes comes into its own as headline news. So far as I am able, I am going to stick to the obvious this afternoon.
The first obvious truth that needs to be stated is that we all, in Britain and outside it, and particularly our great contempories, Russia and the United States, are in dire danger of forgetting what science is about; and in so forgetting there is a real danger that it may become perverted, lose its inspiration, get distorted in its balance or even become a positive curse. We are all becoming so mesmerised by dreams of military force and material economic wealth that I think we are a little apt to forget that science owes its origin to the free questing of the human spirit in its search to understand the environment of which we are all part. Science accordingly is part of culture and it is not primarily part of defence policy or economic policy. It is nothing short of the systematic thinking of the human mind applied to systematic observation and systematic measurement. There is a single corpus or spectrum of knowledge and speculation to which systematic thinking
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has given more or less coherent expression in a number of different spheres.
Of course there are vast fields of human thinking into which science and scientific thinking have scarcely penetrated, though it is, as I would say, the main, perhaps the only characteristic, contribution of the modern world to human thought. Political theory I would say was one of the spheres. But there is certainly no sphere, at any rate not politics, and not I think even religion or philosophy, to which science has not a significant contribution to make. Of course, scientific knowledge is no substitute for, and sometimes perhaps of little guide to, value judgments. The love of music, the joy in a beautiful landscape, painting, poetry and, within limits, ethics, metaphysics and religious experience are determined and qualified by standards of which many scientists happen to be good judges but of which they are not necessarily better judges because they are scientists.
The bearing of this on scientific policy is clearly that science is free because it is a branch of culture, and if not free it becomes false to itself. The spirit of emulation can properly exist in any questing of the human spirit. But chauvinism, narrow nationalism, competition for the sake of winning, keeping up with the Joneses for the sake of keeping up with the Joneses, is ultimately false to its genius, and equally corrupting and distorted is the narrow view which seeks to pursue it solely for military power, material wealth or national prestige. Indeed, what ultimately brings prestige is, I am convinced, what is scientifically right; and those who seek prestige for the sake of prestige and not for the sake of what is scientifically right will in the end fail in their objective. Human societies like our own may believe, and I certainly believe, that the national wealth and power will in large measure depend on the quality of our science. But unless they pursue it for its own sake as part of culture, and not for defence or even for what is called its technological "fallout", they will ultimately miss their objective.
LORD TAYLOR: My Lords—if I may interrupt the noble Viscount—I really think he is talking nonsense. Does he not know the work of Pasteur? If ever there was a person who was imbued with a feeling of hatred of the Germans and

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with patriotic fervour driving him forward in science, it was Pasteur. I do not think this is a valid argument at all; it is quite untrue.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, the noble Lord will no doubt be able to say so when he comes to his speech. We all have our prejudices. We are not necessarily better scientists for having them.
I realise, of course, that at the moment we suffer collectively from a national neurosis of pessimism and self-denigration. But the next obvious truth, and it is the second, I wish to utter is that by and large this has been a good year for British science. I realise, of course, that this will be unpalatable to the "chip on the shoulder" brigade and to those who think that the best way of advertising their wares is by lifting up their voices in lamentation. But it is true, and I will seek to prove it. At the moment I will cite only one piece of evidence. This year we won four Nobel Prizes, or if you count the temporary American emigrant among them, five—that is to say, the American who did the important work which won him his prize in this country. I believe that means we have won about twenty of the Nobel Prizes since the end of the war—better, I believe, than any other country except the United States of America.
I take a modest pride in the fact that all five were supported in their fundamental work by the Medical Research Council, for which I am responsible. I wish I could claim credit for it myself, since I shall certainly be given the blame for any shortcomings. But it must be given where it is due, and I am happy to attribute it to the far-sighted and prudent policy of the Medical Research Council over the years in supporting fundamental research, and the only credit I would claim is that I have helped to defend the scientific judgment of the Medical Research Council against external political pressures which have almost always been directed in favour of applied work.
However, to turn to the subject of emigrants, and passing to a subject which arrived too late to be included in the Report which is under discussion, I would thank the Royal Society for the extremely valuable paper they have prepared
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on this subject—all the more valuable, if they will allow me to say so, because it was prepared from sources available only to themselves and therefore not to me. I also think they were right, if I may add it, to publish the facts without comment, although some of the comment which has subsequently appeared seems to me to have missed two basic facts about the document, both obvious and therefore both sadly in need of emphasis.
The first is that the document itself shows only the debit side of the ledger. Even apart from the increasing number of British scientists whom we hope to reclaim from the United States, there is a credit side of the ledger, and I think we should remember it. A complimentary copy of the Royal Society Report was sent to me by the President of the Royal Society, Sir Howard Florey, one of the most eminent scientists in this country. He is, of course, an emigrant to this country from Australia. The Minister of Defence is advised by another Fellow of the Royal Society, Sir Solly Zuckerman, the Vice Chairman of the Advisory Council on Scientific Policy. He is, of course, an emigrant from South Africa. At a dinner given the other day in honour of our four Nobel Prizewinners to whom I have already referred I had the honour to sit next but one to one of them, Dr. Perutz, an emigrant into this country, who very nobly expressed his gratitude to Britain for what Britain had done for him.
Seated at the same table were Fellows of the Royal Society of great eminence—some of them Nobel Prizewinners: Sir Hans Krebs, also one of our acquired assets; Professor Neuburger, and Professor Medawar who certainly is an emigrant into this country, from, I think, Brazil. Only the other day I read that that brilliant bird of passage, Professor Chain, another Fellow of the Royal Society, was coming back from Rome to Imperial College, London. I made some inquiries as to how many Fellows of the Royal Society, who are limited to British subjects or subjects of the Republic of Ireland, were emigrants to this country. I found that, out of a little more than 600 Fellows some 64 were emigrants into this country; and since they are limited in this way, of course this by no means covers the entire number of top-class scientists from other countries who are

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doing their work here more or less permanently.
I think it worthwhile adding that the Royal Society Report was drawn up and signed by Sir Gordon Sutherland, the eminent head of the National Physical Laboratory (for which also I am responsible), who, I must point out, on the criteria adopted by the Royal Society for the purpose of this Report, was a permanent emigrant from this country, since not so many years ago he held a distinguished scientific Chair in the United States University of Michigan. I think we must be a little careful, must we not, before we lift up our voices in lamentation or talk about a "brain drain", or imply that science in this country is a Cinderella, or dreary, or ill-supported, or used much as a pawn in the political game. If I thought all this was so, I should have hoped that the noble Lord, Lord Todd, and his advisers on the Advisory Council, and the Research Councils, would have told me so straight out. But they have not done so, either in the Report of the A.C.S.P. this year or in the much more comprehensive Annual Report which they did for me in 1960, at my request, when the whole question of balance and development was gone into. I think we really must hammer the prophets of gloom with the facts, and make it a contemptible thing once more to denigrate one's own country. This does not mean—quite the contrary—that I do not take the figures in the Royal Society Report seriously. Obviously, they are extremely serious and must be examined seriously.
That brings me to the next fact about it which, being obvious, is also in need of emphasis, and also, being obvious, highly charged. This is not simply a Report about emigration. In the main, these men and women (although they are nearly all, if not all, men) have not left the United Kingdom for Japan; they have not left the United Kingdom for Czechoslovakia, or the Sorbonne, or Milan, or South America. The balance of healthy two-way traffic (which, I may say, is highly desirable) can, as the summary itself points out, possibly be drawn with the Commonwealth; although we must, I think, accept our obligation to supply with teachers some of the less developed countries in the Commonwealth, all of which will go to swell the
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figures on the debit side. The unrequited balance really consists, if not exclusively at any rate mainly, of emigrants to the United States of America. There is no significant net emigration of scientists elsewhere beyond what is wanted, precisely because—and I challenge anyone to assert the contrary—there is nowhere outside this country, apart from the United States and, for reasons which I have described, the Commonwealth, whither the scientist would willingly or seriously wish to go, unless, of course he had Communist leadings—and even then, it takes more than one swallow to make a Pontecorvo or a Kapitza.
This, my Lords, is the clue to the whole matter, and this no doubt is the reason why it has scarcely been mentioned in the few comments which are made on the Report. We are, in fact, in the presence of something quite different from ordinary emigration, the two-way free trade in scientists (and in other first-class academic brains, though we are talking to-day about scientists), which is healthy and beneficial, and which I hope would become a permanent feature of our scientific life. We are in the presence of a fact which I will now attempt to state quite brutally. We are in the presence of a recruiting drive systematically and deliberately undertaken by American business, by American universities and, to a lesser extent, American Government agencies, often initiated by talent scouts specially sent over here to buy British brains and to pre-empt them for the service of the United States, a nation with nearly four times our population and nearly ten times—at any rate eight times—the national product of the United Kingdom.
I think one is entitled to ask: Why is it that that great country, with all its wealth, is unable to produce the scientists it needs for its own requirements out of its own system of education? I will tell your Lordships what I believe the answer to be. It is because, as we were reminded about six months ago by an American admiral, the American high school system is on a scale incapable of nourishing an adequate supply of scientists that is adequate for their nation's needs; and so inadequate that their university system (which is excellent, and in scale, though not in quality, superior to our own) and their

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research facilities, which, if I may say so, are quite unrivalled, together with American business, which is most technologically minded, and the American State service, are compelled to live—and I am compelled to use the word—parasitically on the brains of other nations in order to supply their own needs.
In a sense, of course, this is a compliment to British science, to our teachers, our universities, our researchers, our training; all in the main supported by British Government funds. If there were anything much wrong with any of these, you may be quite sure that the talent scouts would be prospecting elsewhere, and the jobs on offer would neither be so lucrative nor made so tempting. We are losing a proportion of our scientists precisely because they are so good and so desirable. Although at present the drain is largely towards America, which has the money and the facilities, and not towards less developed countries, which have not, we must accept that as our scientists get better, and as our scientists get more numerous (both of which will happen), we shall, in fact, lose more and more, not only to America but to other countries able to pay for their services. But the fact remains, without any disrespect to our American Allies, or to other competitors for our brains, that it is a compliment which in some ways I would rather do without. Although there is every excuse for less developed countries, there is really none for the United States of America.
I look forward earnestly to the day when some reform of the American system of school education enables them to produce enough scientists of their own, so that, in an amiable free trade of talent, there may be an adequate interchange between our country and theirs, and not a one-way traffic. In the meantime, we must do what we can to face the problem without complacency and without surrendering our fundamental freedoms. This is a free country and we cannot attempt, and must not attempt, to stop our scientists from going abroad. Moreover, scientists of all nations need to go abroad nowadays to acquire experience of many of the first-class facilities which often exist only in one place in the world—and, in particular, very often in the United States of
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America. None the less, we have to do what we can.
Clearly, first of all we must build up our universities to produce more scientists. This in itself would employ more teaching staff. We must provide as good research facilities in our national and private research laboratories as our national need requires, and generally we must educate our own industry, as well as the universities and colleges of advanced technology, to provide the careers for science graduates, already provided by the most forward-looking firms. I would hope also that university teachers, in discussing the matter with their younger men, would represent to them that while this is, and I trust will remain, a wholly free country they still owe some responsibility to the country of their birth, which freely educated them, sent them, mostly free of charge, to a university, provided them with awards to Ph.D. level, investing, I suppose, not much less than £20,000 capital in the education of each, in the hope, I suppose, that they would contribute to the well-being of our country, and not make up for the deficiencies of the American high school—to which, incidentally, they condemn their own offspring if they stay away too long. We must also make concerted efforts to bring back emigrants to responsible posts over here, and I think we can show some little success already in that direction.
However, I fear that for some years to come the problem will be with us. Indeed, as I ventured to say, the better our scientists become and the more numerous they become—and they do both—the more eagerly they will be sought after and the higher will be the price offered for their services. In this context we must neither get rattled nor lose our sense of humour and of proportion. The improvement of the American educational school plant is not so easy or politically attractive as buying talent from abroad; and, in any event, it is beyond my responsibility to prevent it. What we must do is to make Britain so exciting and attractive a country to live in during the remaining years of this century that our best young men and women, despite a legitimate desire to try their fortunes abroad, will, in the main, opt for the much greater adventure of adapting this

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country to 21st century living. If we want to do this one valuable first step would be to put an end to the constant depreciation of everything British that I hear daily all around us.
Despite the emigration figures, the Report of the Advisory Council contains heartening evidence of the progress of British science during the past six years. It is a pity that statistics refer mainly to sums of money, since money is a poor gauge of value in science—indeed, it is easier to waste public money on science than on almost any other subject. But I must quote some of the figures, glossing them as I do with the statement that, thanks to the devoted labours of the Research Councils, I believe we in this country get the best value in the world for our money. With this gloss, the Report makes heartening reading. Total national expenditure on research and development during the last complete year before I first took office as Lord President was about £300 million. The figure is now, in the year dealt with in the Report, more than twice as much: £634 million.
Of course, much of this money will not bring dividends at once, since one of the things one must expect is to build for the future—and often a future which one may not live to see. That kind of building is often the best, and in science, I should have thought, it is always better than the kind of emotional reaction which has no more sensible motivation than "keeping up with the Joneses" is in private life.
The figures I have quoted are all the more impressive because, viewed as a function of the gross national product, they represent a rise from 1·7 per cent. six years ago to 2·7 per cent. I should like to see the next target as 3 per cent., but we are still significantly short of that. I venture to say that in any other field of national action such growth rates would be regarded as phenomenal, and it is particularly gratifying that they have taken place in this field. If our national product itself were growing at anything like this rate we should have little to worry about. I also draw considerable comfort from the fact that, of these figures, the defence proportion has shrunk in the same period from 59 to 38, or nearly 39, per cent., and that the
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industrial budget (which is the one that in 1956 was the most in need of advance, from the practical viewpoint of providing wealth and work) has risen from £185 million to £367 million, of which the contribution of industry itself has risen from £68 million to £213 million. That shows that our various efforts to bring about the increase of technology in industry are bringing in some healthy fruit.
I do not wish to overburden this case with statistics, but I think it is necessary on this occasion to give some, in order to hit back at some of the critics of British science. I think that the Government are entitled to claim a modest and perhaps not inconsiderable share in all this. We have lived through three periods of financial stringency during the last six years. I myself, as I think said on a previous occasion, greatly deplore the misunderstanding with the universities which occurred after 1961. and which I hope we are beginning to put behind us. Both my Treasury colleagues and I have done anything that lay in our power to put that misunderstanding behind us. But I think it worth saying that expenditure on research by Government Departments has risen in the last three years alone from £39·4 million to £61·9 million; on research by the Research Councils from £13·1 million to £23 million; by universities from £23·3 million to £32·4 million, and by public corporations from £10·6 million to £21·4 million. Research in the universities supported by the Research Councils has multiplied by something like a factor of 3 since 1957, and the actual expenditure of the Research Councils has risen since 1959 from £23 million to £36 million.
I am not, of course, saying that all these bodies had all the money they wanted, but in each case I have been able to agree estimates which give rise to a healthy rate of growth, both with my colleagues and with the Research Councils, and in some heads there have been significant under-spendings of money provided by Parliament. I would also point out the healthy growth of "First" scientific degrees and diplomas. By 1965 we hope to be well up to our target of 20,000 new qualified scientists and engineers a year.
To turn, my Lords, from money to hardwear, and to work during the year,

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we have sent up our first Anglo-American satellite, the Ariel I; the second is scheduled for launching this summer; and we have decided to go forward with the construction of a third research satellite of our own manufacture. We have negotiated two major space conventions with Europe—namely, ELDO and ESRO. We have inaugurated at Manchester our first ATLAS computer. We have operated our first 1,000 megawatt conventional power station. We have authorised two new radiotelescopes for Professors Lovell and Ryle at Manchester and Cambridge. We have proceeded at Imperial College with the construction of the British national hydrogen bubble chamber. We have granted £800,000 to Oxford for an accelerator in the Keble triangle. We have decided to provide an electron laboratory for the National Institute of Nuclear Research, and have made provision for three more nuclear reactors for use in our universities. We have supported a joint oceanographic expedition to the Indian Ocean, and inaugurated the largest scientific lending library in Europe.
My Lords, I have already mentioned the work of the Nobel Prizewinners in molecular biology. In medical research I must also refer to the distinguished work in kidney grafting in various centres, which, despite widespread Press reports to the contrary, the Medical Research Council did not refuse to continue to support. I must mention the work showing the connection between irregularities in the chromosomes and certain congenital diseases, and work indicating the existence of one cancer-forming virus in human beings.
In agricultural research I do not think I should neglect the development by the Agricultural Research Council at Pirbright of the foot-and-mouth disease vaccine, which actually defeated the first invasion of Europe by the African virus, thereby conferring a benefit on the whole Continent—not, indeed, the only invasion of Europe which the Anglo-Saxons have helped to repel, but the latest if not the last. I think I should mention also the decision, which I mentioned earlier in reply to a Question, to construct a pilot plant for the removal of Strontium 90 from milk. In the nuclear field the new prototype advanced gas-cooled reactor has been successfully brought into operation
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and is now feeding the grid. We have approval now for the development of a prototype steam generating heavy water reactor, which may be the commercial reactor of the later 1970s. We hope to build a prototype fast reactor which, if it is successful, will markedly affect the entire economics of electricity generation by nuclear power. The experimental breeder reactor at Dounreay is already working at six times the power of any other fast breeder reactor experiment in the world, and is supplying power to the grid.
My Lords, I have scarcely spoken of a tenth of our activities, and I have said nothing of the valuable but less spectacular achievements of the Nature Conservancy. In the field of technology we have let two development contracts for machine tools, thereby breaking new ground. Two others will be concluded shortly and others are under negotiation. The bigger contracts for the supersonic aircraft and the nuclear ship, the defence work on the vertical take-off aircraft and nuclear submarines, and the first two nuclear power stations at Berkeley and Bradwell which came into operation during the year in question are outside my field, although they are of course matters in which I have a considerable and direct interest. It is worth remarking that the two Magnox stations at Wylfa and Hinckley Point will be the world's first 1,000 megawatt nuclear power stations. My Lords, I mention these things not out of vain glory, but because it is essential to emphasise that these are not the achievements of a weak, negative, second-class, inferior or morally defeated nation; nor of a science and technology starved of resources and unable to achieve adequate manpower. It is only in the context of these achievements that I am prepared to discuss our shortcomings, or the immense task of technological development which lies ahead.
My Lords, at the expense of burdening an already lengthy speech, I feel I must reply to criticisms about the choice of reactor systems for the nuclear merchant ship. These criticisms came from relatively responsible quarters, and from one wildly irresponsible quarter. About Captain Atkins, who for some reason was put on the television the other night, I need say little, except that I know of no qualifications he possesses technically

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to think that his technical judgment can be compared with those at the disposal of the Government, including such acknowledged experts in their own fields as Sir William Cook and Professor Diamond. I must, however, repudiate as a matter of fact the irresponsible and reckless statement which he made, and which he is alleged to have persisted in after he had been told it was false, in the "Panorama" programme, when he said that it was, or implied that it was, Sir Roger Makins who procured his dismissal. No evidence was produced for this outrageous untruth, except that a conversation initiated by Vickers took place at which Vickers apologised for their employee's wild assertions and said that those assertions did not represent the opinion of the Company. In fact, Sir Roger tells me that he had no notion that it was the intention of the firm to dismiss Captain Atkins until it was publicly announced. Captain Atkins is, at least in my opinion, strongly to be condemned for this assertion, and I would have thought that he should either substantiate it with evidence or withdraw it unreservedly.
My Lords, I now turn to the technical merits of the case. Here again I can only refer to some of the statements which have been made as irresponsible, since most of the facts have always been available. It has been suggested, for instance, that the Atomic Energy Authority was "railroaded" by the Government into making a premature and unscientific decision. My Lords, this is approximately the reverse of the truth. The Government have always been interested in the possibilities of nuclear propulsion for ships, but all proposals have been passed through a technical assessment procedure, which I will go on to describe. In fact, the decision to proceed with the Vulcain and the integral boiling reactor was not arrived at until the assessment had been completed, and until we had the benefit of expert technical advice.
The work of assessment was undertaken in the first place by a working group under the chairmanship of the Permanent Secretary of the Ministry of Transport, and with representatives of the General Council of British Shipping, of Lloyd's, of the British Ship Research Association, of the Admiralty, of the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research, of my
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own office, and of the United Kingdom Atomic Energy Authority. This group has been advised on the technical aspects of marine reactor research by a panel under the chairmanship of Professor Diamond, who is, as your Lordships will be aware, Professor of Mechanical Engineering at Manchester University, and he was also a member of the main working group. This panel contained the representatives which I have mentioned.
I have ascertained—and I am sure that this is important in judging our confidence in the panel—that it comprised not only nuclear physicists, but also nuclear and marine engineers. So that we can be sure that the experts were able to assess not only which reactor system was the best theoretically, but also which held out the prospect of being most practicable from the point of view of installation, maintenance, seaworthiness and safety in operation. It is, of course, quite understandable that firms whose reactors have not been chosen by the body of experts should harbour disappointment. But I cannot think of any better way in which technical and economic advice in a matter like this can be obtained, and I find it difficult to believe that our procedure would have been criticised in the same way if a reactor designed by one or more of the unsuccessful firms had been chosen.
My Lords, in view of the criticism which has been levelled at the choice of reactors, I have taken great care to inform myself fully. I can assure the House that, at any rate in my opinion, as regards economics, safety and development potential the two reactors chosen for further development—that is the integral boiling reactor and the Belgian-designed Vulcain—are the most promising. This came as no surprise to me. More than a year ago I visited the Atomic Energy Establishment at Risley, to hold discussions on the reactor research programme, and we then went into the various designs which were current for marine reactors. We discussed at length all the systems which have been the subject of recent controversy, and my firm impression at the time was that the two systems subsequently chosen appeared the best.
My Lords, there are a number of fundamental inquiries now in hand.

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These, of course, will alter the future course of science and education. I refer, among others, to that presided over by Lord Robbins, on Further Education; that of Sir Burke Trend on Government Organisation for Civil Scientific Research; that of Sir William Slater on research into Natural Resources; and the Royal Society Report on Biology, commissioned with my approval by the Advisory Council and published as an annex to their present Report with most valuable comments of the Council's own. In addition, I must add a most important inquiry on engineering design which I commissioned through the D.S.I.R., of which Mr. Fender), Fellow of the Royal Society, is chairman, and the report on which I hope will be published this summer.
My Lords, regarding the Royal Society Report on Biology, I entirely accept the main conclusion that the time has come for a great step forward in biological studies; but I thought, rather on the grounds indicated by the Advisory Council, that the Royal Society had perhaps missed the real organisational limitations on the rate of growth of biological studies which are rooted in the universities rather than the Research Councils, although I have asked each Research Council to take this Report into account and to do what they can in the light of it. The more fundamental issues of organisation and finance will be for the inquiries I have mentioned and for negotiation between the universities and the University Grants Committee, and the University Grants Committee and the Government.
I was particularly glad that the Advisory Council began their Report by dealing with the vital question of international organisation in science. This has been developing in importance in recent years in such activities as the International Geophysical Year; the coming Quiet Sun Year; oceanography and seismology, and in the earth sciences generally; in European and Anglo-American co-operation in space research, and in nuclear and high energy physics; and in numerous international conferences, one of which, the Pugwash session in London, I had the honour to open.
On this vital question I wish only to add one footnote at the present stage.
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In various fields of fundamental work in high energy and nuclear physics, for example, the equipment is becoming so expensive and is developing into such short-lived machines (ten or fifteen years, sometimes, at the most if its value as a first-class research tool is to be considered), that its provision, if the study of the elementary particles is to continue at the present pace, is of necessity an international matter. We have already co-operated in the Organisation for European Nuclear Research, CERN, at Geneva. But the new generation of machines will be so enormous—certainly of 100 GeV, and it may be of 300 GeV, and even more—as to make effective construction and use even by consortia of nations next to impossible. Sooner or later I should like to see a world machine contributed to by the scientists and technologists of all nations, including, if possible, the Russians, which would form a focus for nuclear physics of the entire world. It would at least be as sensible as going to the moon, and much more sensible than devising the sophisticated and satanic weapons of the nuclear arms race. It would be something which might contribute to the status of science as an instrument of international culture and understanding.
My Lords, I conclude with one final point—not, I hope, inappropriate during National Productivity Year. It is a plea to the young. It is a plea to schools, universities, technical colleges and, above all, to industry; and it is a plea also to the professional institutions. It is a plea for a concerted effort on the part of these separate units—and, of course, the Government as well—to raise the level of technology to the level of what is best in our science. Above all, let us increase the numbers, the standards and the status of the profession of engineering. If the scientists are the intellectuals, the engineers are the artists, and even the craftsmen, of the scientific world. If the scientists are the discoverers of truth, the engineers are the creators of new wealth and even the makers of the instruments of discovery. A few weeks ago I saw some rather striking statistics which showed that too low a proportion of our first-class brains, in comparison with those of other European countries and perhaps America, were going into technology as distinct from pure science. Let us raise the status

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and prestige of the designer in our midst. There is no surer way of improving productivity than by the improvement of design—and by "design" I do not mean simply styling and colouring; I mean the fundamental quality of clarity of thought translated into engineering structures, whether as small as a penknife or as large as a nuclear power station. In the work of constructing the Britain of the 21st century, to which I referred last week, the engineer and the designer, as well as the scientist, have an indispensable part to play. if we want to get on with the job, my Lords, it is they who must furnish us with the tools.
My Lords, I beg to move.
Moved to resolve, That this House takes note of the Report of the Advisory Council on Scientific Policy, 1961–62 (Cmnd. 1920) and the support by Her Majesty's Government of civil scientific and technological research and development.—(Viscount Hailsham.)
3.47 p.m.
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, I am sure your Lordships will not quarrel with our agreement on this side of the House to allow the noble Viscount his opening fling—and it really was rather a fling. There was, as is always the case in the noble Viscount's speeches, much with which we could all agree, a good deal that was extremely stimulating, and some that I really found extremely difficult to swallow. I shall not follow the noble Viscount in all his flights into philosophy and science. There were certain of his phrases which I liked: the fact that truth is in need of publicity —and this is something which the Government would certainly do well to bear in mind.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: I am doing my best.
LORD SHACKLETON: I am sure the noble Viscount is. As to his observations on the meaning of science and its rôle, and his use of the word "culture" —we are now back to one culture again—there is one culture, I am sure, which mixes with tremendous turbulence in the noble Viscount's mind, and he is not bothered by the real divisions in thinking that exist. It is extremely difficult for us to think about science. Science may operate in the laboratory, but it does not exist in the
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laboratory. It does exist in life, and, in my view, and in the view of many scientists, it needs to be geared more deliberately and more specifically into our national affairs.
My Lords, we have to arrive at judgments at some stage as to how we are doing as a country. The noble Viscount very graciously said that he was not in a position to alter the American high school education system. I thought he was a little patronising about the Americans—
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: I am half American; that is why.
LORD SHACKLETON: That makes it very much easier. But then the noble Viscount is guilty, I think, of that offence of which he so often accuses people—denigration; and particularly denigration of his own side. Because we may have criticisms, that does not mean that there is a general denigration. It does not mean that we think we are a weak, second-class, inadequate nation. There is surely a halfway point between those views. And here may I just correct the noble Viscount on one point. He coupled the names of Pontecorvo and Kapitza. If I remember rightly, Kapitza was not a voluntary emigré to the Soviet Union and I think the record should be put straight.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, I will accept that, and I thank the noble Lord for pointing it out.
LORD SHACKLETON: I should like to turn straight away to one point with which the noble Viscount dealt—the export of scientists. I took some notes as he was speaking and I thought he said that the Royal Society would not attempt to arrive at any value judgment or judgment on what was happening.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, what I said was that the Royal Society made no comment and said at the end of their summary that they would make no comment. The "value judgment" passage was related to general observations about science. They said they had no further comment. I was referring simply to the passage in their Report.
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, let me quote the comment of the Royal

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Society. It seems to me to be quite a considerable comment.
"Quite apart from the potential benefit to this country which has been lost by the emigration of scientists on the scale of the last ten years it must also be recognised that this country has spent considerable sums in educating scientists who are now working in the United States and other countries. We have not been able to arrive at a reliable figure for the cost of educating these scientists …"—
at least about £20,000 apiece. In fact, since they were rather senior it could be rather more. They go on:
"We regard as much more serious the economic consequences of the loss to this country of the leadership and the creative contribution to science and technology which they would have made in the course of their working life."
This seems to me to be quite a comment.
The noble Viscount spoke liberally and happily about a free two-way traffic in scientists. Let me remind him of what the Royal Society said. They said:
"Since it has not been possible for us to obtain figures on the permanent immigration of scientists and engineers into the United Kingdom, all the figures in this Report represent gross losses. The emigration to Commonwealth countries may well be balanced by immigration from the Commonwealth. Gross emigration to the United States, however, must be recognised really as a net loss, for it is clear that permanent immigration to this country from the United States is negligible."
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, that is what I said.
LORD SHACKLETON LORD SHACKLETON Then, all I can say is that to say that the Royal Society made no comment seems to me to be a rather curious way of writing off a revelation of a pretty serious situation.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, it is exactly what I said. I did not write anything off.
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, the Viscount gave an impression. We shall see to-morrow what he did say. It seems to me that what is serious is the high proportion of high-quality scientists involved. It is quite absurd to suggest that the need for these high-quality scientists is the result of a failure in the American educational system. The fact is that they are a wealthier nation. They have more resources and are prepared, like any large firm, to go out and buy the brains. I would not suggest that the noble Viscount is not himself concerned with this matter. He said he would rather it
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did not happen. I do not know what the short-term answer is. I entirely agree with the noble Viscount that we do not wish to put any restraint on these men and I am a little nervous even of the suggestion that we should appeal to their patriotism, because it is desirable that young scientists should go abroad for a period. Certainly we are fully agreed with the noble Viscount that there must be export of scientists to the Commonwealth and undeveloped countries. But it comes down to the success of the economic policy of whatever Government may be in power; the extent to which the resources are available and also the extent to which the right priorities are established in allocating those resources. Figures have been given of the emigration of Ph.D's—10 per cent. or 12 per cent. But this is only part of the story. The noble Viscount would agree that there is also the export of people who have not got their Ph.D.—Doctors of Science, just qualified engineers and university staff—and we know that there are many things to take them to these jobs; but mainly it is because of the opportunities for research.
I know of a case which occurred quite recently. A distinguished scientist was offered a professional chair in a British university which he was prepared to accept providing that there would be some funds available to enable him to continue in some degree the research he was doing in a previous post in Government business. These funds were not available. The university was not able to make them available. The funds are not being made available to the universities or generally for research. It is not enough to refer to the disagreement or fury of the universities in regard to this matter as "that misunderstanding in 1961." There was no misunderstanding on the part of the universities, and I know this is a matter about which the noble Viscount himself feels strongly and in other circumstances would speak much more freely than he can today. But it is while we are failing to achieve the economic progress that we should, and failing to make the right priorities in regard to this matter, that we shall sec this continuous drain of some of our best brains.
Luckily, quite a lot of the wives do not like living in America, so we can claw some back. The efforts of certain Government bodies, particularly the Committee

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over there, is also able to bring others back. But some do not come back, simply because there are no jobs available. Keen as we may be to see a surplus of scientists and see them moving into teaching and into the general public and administrators, the fact that there would be able scientists capable of holding important jobs who are unable to find those jobs shows there is nothing like enough resources being devoted to this. I say this not in any way to minimise what I acknowledge to be very real progress in a number of fields, for we should be grateful to the noble Viscount for his success in wheedling some important concessions from the Government.
The noble Viscount also referred to the increase in expenditure on research. It is true that the figure has doubled in the last seven or eight years. The noble Viscount suggests that if our national productivity could be advanced at the same rate he would be very happy. So should we on this side. There are other steps to be taken to increase our national productivity and it may be that in due course the electorate will take those steps. What I am concerned about is that the percentage of Government funds going into research as part of the total bill appears to be declining. It may be wrong to regard this as significant; but I would ask that when the noble Viscount comes to reply he should expand that a little more. At the same time we should certainly welcome (and the proportion may be coming more nearly right) a considerable increase in expenditure on research and development by private industry as well as by publicly-owned industry. This is something for which we can be grateful, and it is worthy of note that we receive some not inconsiderable sums from the United States for research. It is a factor which I think is not appreciated. We are not a net exporter of research funds; in certain respects, we are importers; and this figure is quite a considerable one.
This brings me to the position of the research associations. The noble Viscount knows all too well that representations have been made to him by the Parliamentary and Scientific Committee. I do not know how confidential is the correspondence that has taken place, but I think that he will not accuse me of
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revealing secrets if I say that there has been some disagreement about whether the Government are making a large enough contribution. There is no doubt—and nobody knows this better than the noble Viscount—that the position of the research associations is not clear. They are different in nature and have different needs, and the figure that should be made available depends to some extent on a rule-of-thumb approach. I would urge the noble Viscount, despite all the reason he has been able to bring to bear, that there is need for a greater expenditure by the Government in support of the research associations.
We do not want industry to shuffle off its responsibilities, but if the research associations are to develop, and the money is not forthcoming in sufficient amounts from industry, then I would urge that the Government do rather more. We must bear in mind that there are certain research associations, including some of the newer ones (I know that the noble Viscount is inclined to give more support to the newer ones), which are not directly concerned with the development of products and inventions which are likely directly to bring a return to the firms concerned. A body like the British Industrial Biological Research Association, which is concerned with testing and with a wide field of researches in toxicology and other questions of general public value, is extremely important. I would urge that there should be more recognition by the Government of the fact that in such cases as this they should carry a larger responsibility than industry. I would not disagree with the noble Viscount that industry must play its part, and I agree with him in not wanting to "feather-bed" them.
I should like to turn now to the Report of the Advisory Council. I am coming to think that, as a review, a progress report, this White Paper is not by itself adequate for the purpose, and it is perhaps a good thing we had the speech of the noble Viscount to fill in the picture. I admit that the Paper is rather longer than the Government's Paper on Defence—certainly more than 200 words—and contains a great deal more thought, if I may say so, and a great deal more decision. Without wishing to criticise individuals, and in particular the noble Lord, Lord Todd,

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to whom we should be extremely grateful for taking the chair of the Advisory Council, the fact is that a number of busy and distinguished scientists, meeting half a dozen or more times a year, are not really in a position to give the sort of review that we need.
Whether the Government and the noble Viscount himself should undertake this, or whether additional support should be given to the Advisory Council—and, indeed, some additional staff, so that they can discharge this duty—I cannot say. But it would help us in examining these figures—for instance, if we look at the scientific graduates who have been trained in the past year—if there had been more explanation and they were related to the general trend. But we had to wait for the noble Viscount to say that we are well on the way towards the 12,000 science graduates in the year 1965. So I would ask the noble Viscount if he would give careful thought to this point.
This Report is in marked contrast to the admirable Reports of bodies like the Medical Research Council and the Nature Conservancy, where there is a great deal, not only of careful thinking, but of excellent writing as well. What I am asking for is the equivalent in regard to science of what used to be the Defence White Paper. The Committee looked at a number of particular matters which the noble Viscount had asked them to consider—in particular, international co-operation. They use a phrase, which has very much the Hailsham ring about it:
"It must not be supposed that international co-operation is a substitute for national excellence."
This is certainly a ringing phrase. I would hope that no one would take the view mentioned, and that no one would go rushing off purely after international co-operation without regard to its scientific value. At the same time, it is clear—and this was apparent in the noble Viscount's own speech, especially when he was talking about the new machine for CERN—that there must be increasing international co-operation.
The fact that there is a multiplicity of instruments cannot be avoided, unfortunately, and I hope that the rather cool sort of reference by the Council will not discourage the Government from
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playing the part they should. Frankly, I am encouraged by what the noble Viscount said with regard to the machine for CERN, if it is to achieve 300 or 400 GeV (which I think stands for gigae electron volts), and it was satisfactory to be able to point out to a scientist that gigae were presumably larger than megas, and its derivation then becomes apparent. If this is to be achieved, then the Government—and, I would urge, the noble Viscount himself—must give a lead, because it is of importance to this country and to the whole world as well.
I do not think that the noble Viscount said anything about a conference which goes by the curious initials of UNCSAT. I will not attempt to give the words for which these letters stand, all the more so because we know that the noble Lord, Lord Casey, who is to speak later, is himself a member of UNCSAT. I would only ask that whatever he may say about what has come out of this apparently confused but very important conference will be heeded by the Government, because this organisation is concerned with initiating questions of international research and development, particularly in relation to the under-developed areas, which is clearly something on which there is need for more co-operation.
LORD BOOTHBY: My Lords, I beg the noble Lord to let us know what these initials stand for, because otherwise we are at sea.
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, the U.N. part is easy—it stands for the United Nations. Perhaps the noble Lord, Lord Casey, would care to tell us right away.
LORD CASEY: My Lords, it is an abbreviation of the initial letters, a cutting down of the rather long formal description of the conference—the United Nations Conference for the Application of Science and Technology for the Benefit of less developed areas. They picked out six of the capital letters and made them into this very uneuphonious word.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: It is really "UNSCAT."
LORD SHACKLETON: It is not UNSCAT it is UNCSAT—and there appears to be the "B" missing. But let me leave UNSCAT for a moment, and

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turn to certain other aspects of international co-operation.
I think the noble Viscount was attracted by the phrase the "Year of the Quiet Sun." It should be of course, the Years of the Quiet Sun, because this will be a period of relatively peaceful solar activity and will be a successor to the International Geophysical Year which was such an extremely successful example of international co-operation. I should like to urge support for one particular activity which is the international biological programme. One of the criticisms I think we can make of present tendencies in science is the tendency to concentrate on certain rather more striking fields—the tendency to concentrate, for instance, on cells research. Some of the older forms of science may be overlooked.
I should like to ask the noble Viscount to bear in mind (he accepts this, I think) that the biological sciences are trailing behind the physical sciences, and this is particularly true of that part of biological science which is concerned with the whole plant or animal in its environment, rather than with the cells or organs of which the organism is composed. The future health and happiness of mankind and of the world, with this enormous explosive increase in population, will depend not so much on physical sciences or space research—although we do not know what space research will produce—as on the biological productivity of the soil and water of this earth. I will not go into this in any detail but it is something again on which I hope we shall have the support of the Government: because until we have a better understanding of biological productivity we shall not be capable of solving our problems in the most sensible way. We shall have to use short cuts, and we shall be using more and more pesticides and less and less fundamental solutions to our problems. There is a strong case for making the international biological programme a real success, and I hope that the Government will play their part in this.
There is one other aspect of international co-operation to which I should like to refer, and that is the problem of admitting East German scientists. This may not seem to some of your Lordships
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to be a very important matter, and it may seem to be a legitimate thing that one should retaliate for the monstrosity of the Berlin Wall by imposing certain bans on East German scientists. But the fabric of international scientific co-operation is such a delicate and important one that I would urge the noble Viscount to see whether we cannot get over this problem. The fact remains that the international unions of scientists (this matter was raised by them) feel strongly about this. There is, for example, to be a congress in London this year of the international unions for pure and applied chemistry. If the NATO countries continue to reject East German scientists—they do not reject Russian scientists, who, it might be argued, may be equally responsible for the Berlin Wall—it will mean that we are doing real damage in a field where the cold war is not operating. There is international co-operation among scientists. It may even compel the organisers of these conferences to place their location in non-NATO countries simply so that this obstacle may be removed. This is something about which the scientific community feel strongly: from their point of view it is not a matter of Party politics or of international politics. I would urge the noble Viscount to look at this point. There is the question of the Berlin ensemble, but that is another matter, although of the same order.
The most important part of the Annual Report of the Advisory Council on Scientific Policy is concerned with biology. I am glad that the A.C.S.P. have made some sort of an ainende for earlier errors in regard to the importance of biology. They now recognise (I do not blame any members individually for what have been one or two slips in the past) that the biological sciences have tended to fall behind; that the facilities are inadequate, and the need has ben underestimated. The solution will not be achieved by just referring it to Research Councils and other bodies; it will be achieved by Government support.
The universities, we know, are up against it in regard to space and in regard to equipment; and if they are blamed for their own failure to push the biological side along, it is due to some extent to the fact that some people have given up asking. They feel that they have asked so often (I know of actual cases) for resources and funds, that they have given

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up hope. There is little doubt that more money will have to be provided. It will not be enough just to say, as is suggested, that the universities should provide it. They are up against the quinquennium, and they up against the fact that inadequate funds have ben made available to them. My noble friend Lord Taylor will undoubtedly be dealing with this aspect, but if we are to carry out the recommendations of the Royal Society's Report, and those parts of it which have broadly been endorsed, and in certain aspects endorsed in detail, by the Advisory Council, more money is going to be necessary. The economic, national and international importance is really tremendous. This is not only a field of very long-term pure research. The possibilities which are mentioned, whether or controlling the growth of organs, of transplantation, to which the noble Viscount referred, possibly of turning fishing into a farming operation, and many other activities—may all come from this.
There is one particular aspect of their recommendations with which I would ask the noble Viscount to deal to-day. These are the important recommendations with regard to micro-biological studies. I am told that it is possible to make perfectly good food from paraffin wax. We shall produce in our oil refineries—and may be already producing—a protein of a fishlike quality which will be cheap and edible. I am told that it is possible to concentrate metals. I am even told that there are microbes that will generate electricity for us. The possibility of using microbes instead of chemical synthesis seems to have caught the imagination of a number of people, including at least one particular Government establishment in this country which has been working on this fundamental question of nitrogen fixation and the possibility of being able gradually to move from the present method of creating artificial manures into one in which the microbes will do the work for us. The list is endless, and it is something which I should have thought had I not been told it by reputable scientists, was invented for a science fiction story. Clearly, increased money has to be made available for this. The Americans are showing more initiative than we are, although there are certain industrial companies—notably some of the oil companies—who are working in this field.
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There is one particular proposal which I would ask the noble Viscount to consider and perhaps give us a view upon to-day, and that is the proposal that in this field the Defence establishment at Porten should be made into a National Institute of Microbiology. To many of us the name Porten in the past has been a name almost of ill omen, but I understand that the work they have been doing there is of a first-class nature and of fundamental importance. We have before us a recommendation that it should be made into a National Institute of Microbiology.
It is apparent that physics are no longer to be the only white hope of the new British industrial revolution. In fact, it has been suggested that the next stage of industrial development will be a microbiological one. I cannot speak on this subject, but it is quite clear—and this is a point which I think the noble Lord, Lord Todd, or certainly the noble Lord, Lord Fleck, has dealt with—that we need to strengthen the effort to cross the boundaries of the established schools and specialisations. If we are to get civil research, space research, ecology, or whatever it may be, ways must be found of producing hybrid disciplines. This will, of course, mean, as the noble Viscount knows, more money and multi-professorial departments.
There is one further point I should like to make at the end. Again, I would turn to the fundamental attitude of the Government to research. I understand that there is a possibility that the National Economic Development Council—"Neddy" as it is called—is also taking into account not only the needs of science, but the possibility of applying scientific thinking—I will not go into that subject any more than calling it scientific thinking—in our national affairs. Whether this is in terms of operational research methods or what, I do not know. We are waiting for the Slater Committee and the Trend Committee. I would urge the Government that the time has now come for the noble Viscount to develop his Ministry or his responsibilities, or some other body, into a more organised formal structure. I think there is a great deal to be said for the informal nature of his responsibility and the way in which he has discharged it, but the result

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is that the Government are apt to develop the sort of schizophrenia which requires them at times to hold back where they should press on.
There is a complaint which is growing all the time and which may be a general complaint about the atmosphere which the Government generate in other fields, that there is a lack of urgency in this field. A very distinguished scientist wrote to me quite recently and said that the whole Government attitude to science is basically inadequate. Much lip service is paid and great use is made of science when it is unavoidable. This may be an exaggeration in certain respects, but it is argued that there is not the seriousness or the urgency. To say this is not to. denigrate our country. The fact that we believe we have the men and the capacity, and that we could both develop faster in this field in this country and help to develop the rest of the world, must depend on the sense of urgency that the noble Viscount himself, who has a big part to play, can get into this field. So far, he is not convincing scientists that he is taking them seriously enough. We want some of the enthusiasm he has, and we want him to get more enthusiasm into his Government colleagues. It is true that this year we had four Nobel Prizewinners in science, and it is argued that this is despite the system. I do not believe that that is fair, because we have much that we can be proud of. But I think there is a need for a more positive lead. The Government and the noble Viscount have had quite a good run on this matter, and I think he will agree that we have supported him in his endeavours in this field. We are now looking for rather more positive results.
4.25 p.m.
LORD ADRIAN: My Lords, there is an important section at the end of the Report which deals with the biological research which we have been doing here and how we might make it more effective. But one cannot read the Report as a whole without thinking of the problem of the basic sciences in general. Most countries are facing it. We all want our technology to be better, and we are ready to spend money on it. We all agree, I think, that our technology will not go on advancing unless it is backed up by research in the fundamental sciences, research which cannot be expected to pay immediate divi-
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dends except in our scientific status in the world.
It is quite a new responsibility for Governments to have to support basic science on this scale, and there are two quite different ways of doing it. One way is to support the research in the scientific departments of universities, and the other is to set up special research institutes outside the university system altogether. In the U.S.S.R. and the countries which follow its lead, that is the system which is used. The universities do the teaching, and much of the research is done, or at any rate has been done, in special institutes under the control of the Academy of Science. The U.S.S.R. Academy is made up of leading scientists in every field, and at one time it had 150 research institutes under its control. That was found to be rather much and now it has about 70. The universities look after the teaching. There are good research departments in some of them, and there is some postgraduate teaching in the special research institutes. But it is not part of the general plan. Poland, Czechoslovakia and China all adopt that system—teaching in universities and research in special institutes run by the academy of the country.
This is the obvious short-term method for expanding science rapidly in countries where the universities have lost most of their equipment. On the other hand, in the West, in the U.S.A. and in Europe, the emphasis has been on research in the universities or in independent undertakings. There are national institutes, of course, in the U.S.A. as there are here, but there is a great deal of very expensive basic research done in universities in the U.S.A. financed by Government contracts or by private donations. The initiative usually comes from the university in question, and they have a fairly free hand about the way in which they go to work. Here we may rely a little more on the special institutes outside the university system, like the National Physical Laboratory at Harwell, or the Medical Research Council Unit. But there are large areas of basic research which are left entirely to our universities. We regard it as their duty to carry out research as well as teaching, and if our university research is not supported by the State we should soon

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become a very second-rate power in the scientific world.
Of course, both systems have arguments for and against them. It is no doubt much tidier to have all the research in one organisation and all the teaching in another, but with our system research and teaching are mixed up and it may be exceedingly difficult to find out how much is being spent on either of them. But I do not think anyone doubts that the universities are the right place for most of the basic research in science which we do, and we should never contemplate the idea of a university which does nothing but teach and does not have as strong research as we can give it.
If we go in for that system it means that there must be somebody to balance the claims of teaching and of research in the same building and under the same administration. We are developing our university teaching at a great rate and I think—although I quite agree with the noble Viscount who opened this debate that this has not been at all a bad year for achievement in basic science—that there are dangers in the future, if we are not very careful, of the balance in our universities swinging over in the direction of teaching. If we are going to rely upon our university system for most of our basic research we must make quite sure it can go on without interruption. It is a very tender plant; it is easily discouraged; and it is very hard to start it growing again if it has been neglected.
The head of a university department with a limited budget and faced with, say, a hundred more students to teach will find it very difficult not to cut down on the research side, to cut down the space and the money for it, and, worse still, to cut down the time which can be allowed to the stall, who ought to be left free to work out their own problems. The need for free time for research in universities is, I think, most vital. We must not expect our best scientists to be contented if they have to spend the whole of the term doing nothing but teaching and then are left in a rather jaded condition to do their research work in the vacation.
If the staff of an expanding university system are to have the time for research as well as for teaching, we must see that
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there are enough new appointments to keep the staff-student ratio from falling. It would be a fatal mistake to train young scientists in departments where the research had already been stifled because everybody had to do not merely more teaching but more administration, more planning of buildings and more sitting on committees. Those are problems, of course, which must be left to the University Grants Committee, which has to extract the money from the Treasury and find some way possibly of giving grants, or earmarking grants—although I know it does not like doing this—for research or with a strong bias in favour of their being used for research rather than for teaching.
Two years ago, I think, we had a debate here in which the noble Earl, Lord Longford, suggested that the time had come for the universities to be under the care of the Ministry of Education. I was shocked at the idea and I still am, for as long as universities are centres for research as well as for teaching they ought to be looked after by a body which understands the needs of research departments and their special problems. But I am sure the noble Earl, Lord Longford, was quite right to raise the question, because we are all beginning to wonder how long the University Grants Committee will be able to stand the strain without some considerable reorganisation and extension. It has done so well in the past that we are in danger of forgetting how much it has to do now. It has supervised the expansion of our universities from about 50,000 students before the war to 100,000 now, but the total will soon rise to 150,000.
In the past the Committee was trusted at all levels because its members could find the time to visit all the universities and take a personal interest in their affairs, and because its permanent staff could keep an eye on all the new building. But very soon it will have six more universities to visit, six new Vice-Chancellors on its doorstep, in addition to all the old ones who cannot be left out in the cold because they are expanding their universities. The Committee has an immense problem of buildings and visitations and its responsibilities are going to become greater and greater—we hope they are going to become greater and greater. It is part of the policy to expand our universities.

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I think that this question of the growing responsibilities of the University Grants Committee is quite relevant to our discussion. We must have research in our universities. We want it to keep up its standard in spite of the expansion. We want a central committee which still has the time to visit departments where research goes on and we also want a body which has the scientific knowledge to encourage research, and, of course, we want it to be a body which has the confidence of the Government when it comes to finance. I am quite sure that the Minister for Science and his Advisory Council and the University Grants Committee have devoted a great deal of thought to ways and means of making this sort of reorganisation, and I only hope they will find a good solution because I think it is a very important problem indeed for the future of the whole of our science.
We have to realise that under our system a great deal of our basic research in science must come from universities, and that the expansion of universities is going to involve a difficult time for staff who have to teach as well as to work on their own problems. Whoever looks after the welfare of the university system, therefore, will have to ensure that expanding the teaching does not mean contracting the research; for 20,000 more science graduates will be no great asset if the men who have taught them have had less time to carry out research into their own problems. Planting out special research units in new universities can of course do a good deal and has given spectacular results in the past, but I do not think it is a long-term solution. It can sow discontent and it can make universities neglect their responsibilities for the research which their staff ought to be doing.
The section of the Report which deals with biological work shows the kind of difficulties which we have to face. Biology has become far more aware of physical and chemical processes. It needs students with the required training to follow bio-chemistry and bio-physics; they have to understand the nature of chromosomes, the use of computers and electron microscopes, and so on. We want to recast the teaching in universities to meet these developments and we must do it without losing the great oppor-
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tunities that we have now on the research side. It is a field with immense possibilities and so far we have done very well in it; better than most countries. Money put into it would keep us in the lead, because we have the men and the ideas. The field is so new that we may lose our lead by not having the time and the energy and the money for the new developments that we ought to be making. As the Report says, the leader in research on these lines will have to face administrative and managerial problems of an altogether different order of severity than in the past: the problem of finding space, for instance, for research equipment, and the money to get it, the time in which it can be used without neglecting the new kinds of teaching which have to be evolved.
One solution put forward by the Committee of the Royal Society in their Memorandum is the setting up of a new research council on the lines of the Medical and Agricultural Research Councils. Both those existing Councils have become part of our accepted method of looking after research and they have done it extraordinarily well. They have had an immense effect on medical and agricultural science. A biological council might do so too, but only if there are ample funds to back it and no insistence on one particular range of problems. It should be able to deal with genetics and animal behaviour as well as taxonomy and insecticides, and so on. I should like to draw attention to the paragraph in the Royal Society's Memorandum which says that:
"Every endeavour should be made to see that universities are adequately equipped before new 'National Institutes' are established".
A biological research council with the power to give grants for research, and ultimately with special institutes, would certainly encourage the development if it had the funds to spend on it. But I am afraid it is a popular fallacy with scientists and with university people generally to suppose that more research councils are bound to lead to more research. A research council may be all very well as a status symbol, but unless it can get a fair share of our quite limited resources it will not mean much more than another office staff and more committees.
The Advisory Council whose report we are considering have tried to compare

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what we are spending here on research with what is being spent in the U.S.A. It is a difficult comparison to make, but it looks as though the proportion of gross national product spent on research and development is not much less here than in the U.S.A.: 2·7 per cent. in Great Britain and 2·9 per cent. there. Yet as far as research in universities is concerned, we are constantly clamouring for more funds, whereas in the U.S.A. there appear to be more Government funds available than there are problems ready to be solved and research teams anxious to work on them. Perhaps that applies only in the medical field, but it is the general impression one gets when one is out there. I think the contrast may come partly from the way in which our university system is financed, by a quinquennial block grant which is supposed to cover everything.
In a department or a college where most of us do some research or some teaching it is almost impossible to disentangle the sums which are spent on research. It may be our own fault if we neglect research in favour of teaching, but it is quite clear that we are nothing like so well off on the research side as they are in many of the universities of the U.S.A. It may be our own fault if the need for teaching, say, 50,000 more students comes to dominate the picture of our university science in the next few years. It will certainly be a disaster if it means the universities are not able to do as much research as they have been doing in the past. I hope the Minister for Science and his advisers will be able to find the way to ensure that university research will not suffer. I am afraid it may suffer in this period, when university teaching will make such demands on our time and energy and on the money that we ought to be spending on research, not only in the basic sciences but in science of every kind.
4.45 p.m.
VISCOUNT CALDECOTE: My Lords, in accordance with the usual custom, I must declare some interest in the subject of this debate, because I have an interest in one or two of the projects referred to by the noble Viscount in his opening speech. I should like for a moment to join issue on a few remarks the noble Viscount made in his opening statement which seem to me to be open
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to very unfortunate misinterpretation. He seemed to be saying, in effect, that scientific honesty is vital, science is part of our culture, and therefore we must not degrade it by getting it mixed up with sordid, everyday problems of defence and industrial prosperity. If I have grossly misinterpreted his remarks I apologise, but it seems to me they were open to this kind of misinterpretation.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, I am glad the noble Viscount said that, because it is not what I intended. What I intended to say was if you want science to do its job in defence and economics you have first to pursue it for its own ends and then to apply it to defence and economics; but if you go about it with the idea of getting military power or money it will in fact defeat you.
VISCOUNT CALDECOTE: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Viscount. I would entirely agree with his comment, but perhaps he will agree that it is as well to explain his remarks. I entirely agree that scientific honesty is vital, but I think it is true that the terms of reference of the Advisory Council on Scientific Policy cover the whole field of civil science, and I take that to mean the whole field of science in its broadest sense, including fundamental science, applied science and technology, and those who work in those fields. I hope the noble Viscount would agree that the ultimate objectives of the civil scientific policy of the Government—and I take these in no order of priority—are the acquisition and advancement of knowledge, prosperity in industry and the promotion of social welfare in health, water supply and the like.
The present report gives attention to aspects of all these. I would welcome particularly the statement on pan 5 on international co-operation, where the Report states that:
"It should not be supposed that international co-operation is a substitute for national excellence."
This is a point of great wisdom and tremendous importance at the present time. I would also welcome wholeheartedly the comments made on the provision of computers for research. These add greatly to the useful output of research workers. But computers require mathematicians. It was thought

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when they first came into being that computers would replace mathematicians. In fact, because of the demands for solving new problems and the large output of data to be analysed and the need for programming, there is an increasing demand for mathematicians. Last year's report of the A.C.S.P. referred to the shortage of mathematicians, particularly mathematics teachers, and to the importance of mathematics in science. I think it would be most valuable to have the advice of the noble Viscount and the A.C.S.P. next year on how we are getting on with the supply of mathematicians, who are so vital in this field. I regret that the discussion of the A.C.S.P. on the Government science organisation has been interrupted. I felt that last year's Report made some extremely valuable points, and I sincerely hope that the report of Sir Burke Trend's Committee will not be unduly delayed.
Perhaps we ought to consider this subject sub judice in view of the sitting of that Committee, but I hope the House will allow me to make two remarks on subjects which are closely allied to the organisation of Government research. First, it seems to me that there is a risk that we are not getting full value from the work done by the scientists and engineers employed in some of our Government-supported research organisations, owing to the inflexible establishments—establishments in the sense of manpower allocations. For example, in many cases the recruitment of five to six technicians or clerical staff will be of much more value than the recruitment of two qualified scientists or technologists, and they will cost roughly the same. It seems to me of great importance, if frustration and waste of effort are to be avoided, that the local management of these establishments should be allowed to spend the funds allotted for staff in the way best suited to their requirements.
Secondly, there is another aspect of obtaining full value for money from Government scientific expenditure which has been before the public eye recently. This is the question of the importance of the so-called "technological fall-out" from defence and space activities. Vast sums of money are being spent in the United States of America on space research and exploration, in addition to
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the normal defence budget. It is easy to criticise that expenditure as being wasteful, as being purely for prestige, for "keeping up with the Joneses" and that kind of thing, but there is no doubt that the resultant benefits are startling and are leading to rapid advances in other fields.
It is true, as the A.C.S.P. pointed out in the 1959–60 Report, in paragraph 71, that our resources are limited and we certainly cannot afford anything like what the Americans are doing; nor even to have a programme for putting up satellites using only our own resources. But some time has passed since that comment by the A.C.S.P. Progress has been made, and I would ask the noble Viscount whether he feels that we are doing the right amount of work in this field to enable us to collaborate effectively with our friends. The further advice of the A.C.S.P. on this subject would be of the greatest value.
Then, on co-operative research, I believe that our research associations are a most valuable factor in our industrial life. There has been much discussion over the past few years on the method of support, particularly in relation to the provision of capital equipment and the promotion and support of more revolutionary new ideas. This is a most important factor in increasing the use made of research associations by industry and in recruiting and maintaining high quality scientific staff. I wonder whether the noble Viscount would think that this subject would be suitable for referring to the A.C.S.P.
Finally, and on a really most important point, how far have we progressed over the last few years in giving the scientist (and I use that word in the broadest sense; the scientist, engineer or technologist) his proper place in society? On this depends whether we obtain the best men and whether scientific knowledge is used in the most effective way. In the services, in military affairs and in Government establishments much has been done over the years to bring scientists into the policy-making arena. But in some Government departments, particularly civil departments, much still remains to be done. The late Lord Cherwell once implied that scientists were "always on tap and should be on top". I think that

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is probably an exaggeration. Scientists, all human beings, are mortal in their mistakes. The fact is, that all experienced men have a part to play in determining policy. But there is still a tendency to keep scientists out of the direct line of authority and decision-taking in the Government machine.
This, surely, is an aspect of Government scientific policy which is of the utmost importance and would repay study by the Council. For this country, of all countries, scientific advance is of prime importance; it is a major factor in the success of our export drive, and so of our future prosperity. It is true, as the noble Viscount has said, that we have done well, very well; but still it is not good enough; and it is not good enough because of our special problems in this country. Our raw materials are few, and much must be imported. But we have a vast reservoir of scientific knowledge and ingenuity which can add value to those scarce raw materials. I hope that my comments have not given any impression of criticism of the A.C.S.P.—quite the reverse. I want to see it used to the full, for I believe that in the Council we have a body of fundamental importance to our economy. We are fortunate indeed that so many eminent and experienced men give freely of their time to serve on it. Perhaps in next year's Report they might give some consideration to themselves, particularly towards the achievement of some closer integration of the Council into the machinery of Government, with the objective of making their work and advice even more effective.
4.56 p.m.
LORD TODD: My Lords, in view of the subject we are debating today, it might seem that I am in the position of a prisoner in the dock. But before I go any further, I should like to make it quite clear that I do not regard myself as such. The practice of one individual wearing several hats is not entirely unknown in your Lordships' House, and so to-day I should like to wear my purely personal hat—I should like to be regarded as myself, and not simply as a spokesman for the Advisory Council on Scientific Policy. For that reason I do not in tend to discuss in detail what is in the Report, or to defend it as printed; but I should like to make
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a few rather general observations on a number of matters which, in a measure, are touched upon in the Report that is before us.
I should like to say, first of all, one or two things about some aspects of international co-operation, or, rather, international collaboration, in science. I am entirely in favour of international co-operation in science, and have been all my life; but I must confess that there are certain aspects of international collaboration in science where centralised institutions are concerned—such as, for example, the European Centre for Nuclear Research (CERN) and the European Space Research Organisation (ESRO)—which leave me at times a little uneasy. One of the difficulties is that although originally the commitments may be defined, all such institutions rather naturally develop a momentum of their own. The result is that at times strong political pressure is liable to be exerted on us to accept or to accede to further increased commitments, sometimes at the behest of nations whose financial stake is considerably smaller than our own; and these commitments may be entered into without due consideration of their relative importance, in the light of our other scientific needs.
I think we should remember, too, that if, for example, we contribute to a large new accelerator programme at CERN, we shall inevitably have to provide considerably increased finance for the further support of nuclear physics in this country; because only if we spend that money shall we have the scientists properly trained and equipped to make use of the new equipment which we are developing at CERN. Items of this sort cost a great deal of money. At the present time we are spending a number of millions a year on nuclear physics, and there is every reason to expect that this expenditure will go up at the rate of perhaps 15 or 20 per cent. per annum.
My Lords, I should be the last to seek to hamper the development of science, and it is perfectly clear that in nuclear physics and space research there are areas in which men must and will seek new knowledge. The fact that the work which is done in these areas has no obvious practical consequence is not a relevant argument against doing

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the work. It is well known that most major technological achievements have sprung from fundamental and apparently useless research done a considerable time before. But while this means that any Government must support fundamental science, just as it must support the development of literature and the arts (and in the case of science it has the additional incentive that it may be of some practical benefit) all this must lead us, in due course, into a consideration of cost.
So long as activities in science cost amounts which are small in relation to the total budget there is not very much of a problem; but when we find, as in the case of those areas I have been mentioning—and it will be the case in other areas of science before very long, I am sure—the cost beginning to rise very steeply, a time comes when it is necessary to consider what is the scale of effort we ought to put into any one field. For an indefinite increase in expenditure in one field is likely to cause restriction of expenditure in others. That will remain the case unless we are in the happy position of having a continually rising gross national product, or we are prepared to cut back severely in other directions of expenditure—directions which may be regarded by the country at large as having at least equal importance.
There is another important point in connection with CERN to which I would draw attention. CERN is widely, and very properly, regarded as an excellent example of international co-operation in science. Here we have a kind of consortium of 13 nations which have combined together to provide the equipment necessary for high energy nuclear physics. As a result, the scientists of these countries, working in part collaboratively, have the opportunity to use for their researches machines which their own countries, singly, could not afford. This is very good, but we have now reached a stage at which the machines we have known so far, those of, say, 20 to 30 GeV (and may I say, for the benefit of the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, that one GeV is 1,000 million electron volts), are becoming obsolescent; and people are now talking, as the noble Viscount, Lord Hailsham, mentioned, of going
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ahead to machines with energies of 100, and even 300, GeV.
Such machines are enormously expensive to build and to operate. Yet, as things now stand, we are likely to see proposals for instruments of this type from three sources—CERN, the United States, and Russia. These huge machines will be used to carry out experiments of essentially the same type exploring the same fields—experiments which, as Dr. Weisskopf, the Director-General of CERN, said in London only last week, are pushing forward the frontiers of man's knowledge of the universe but have no practical advantage to any one country. This fact is paralleled in other areas. It applies equally in space. After all, from a scientific point of view it is very important to know a good deal about the moon, but who gets the knowledge first is not important at all. It always seems to me that Chauvinism, even on a continental scale, has no place in science; and the pursuit of prestige is just about the worst possible reason for undertaking scientific research.
As the noble Viscount the Leader of the House said earlier, we are dealing here with global matters. Like him, I believe the time has come when we should go forward boldly in areas such as this for co-operation on a world scale, avoiding unnecessary waste of resources and duplication. By all means let us contribute all we can to the advancement of science, but let us do it, so far as possible, in a rational manner. What is more, I think we should remember that nuclear physics is only a small part of natural science.
I think it is pertinent to point out here that, as has been emphasised not only in the latest Report but also in earlier Reports of the Advisory Council on Scientific Policy, there is clear need for a greater scale of effort in this country in research and for the provision of more senior academic posts, not only in biology (I may say to the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, that I do not understand his reference to the fact that the Advisory Council on Scientific Policy had earlier been against the development of biology), but also over a very large area of science. Nuclear physics and space research are very important; but so, I venture to suggest, is the rest of science. It would seem to me indefensible to spend

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freely on projects such as those I have been discussing, the very large sums that are involved, and at the same time to restrict other activities, especially when we remember that a very small part of these sums would transform the whole scene in broad areas of science. Among these areas are many where advances are likely to be of material significance to all of us at much shorter range than is the case with high energy physics. Moreover, we should remember that if the rest of science is restricted financially at the same time there is some danger of so glamorising these expensive pursuits that they may draw into them too high a proportion of the best talent we have, to the detriment of our scientific and technological progress.
Your Lordships will have noticed that the Advisory Council records in its Report a survey of our national expenditure upon research and development in 1961–62, which we estimated at about £634 million. Of course, different surveys of this kind—and there have been other surveys; for example by the Federation of British Industries—may give slightly differing figures. The difference between these figures is to be attributed to difficulty in definition of terms used, but even after making allowance for errors, inaccuracies, and for the difficulties of comparing amounts spent in one country and another, is seems fairly clear that the percentage of our gross national product which is devoted to research and development—about 2·7 per cent.—is at any rate of the same order as that which is similarly applied in the United States of America.
But, my Lords, any tendency there may be to complacency about this is quickly removed when we remember that, although the United States has only three times the population of this country, it has nine times the gross national product. Quite apart from any discussion as to whether our present research effort is correctly and properly planned, I think it is clear that if we want to spend money on anything like the American scale the first thing we have to do is to increase our gross national product. This implies, to my mind, that we ought to be putting our main effort into the technological field, the area in which research leads quickly to developments of economic importance. That means fields like
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metallurgy, solid state physics, applied biology, engineering, chemistry and so on.
This brings me to my final point, a point which concerns this widely discussed loss of highly-trained scientists and technologists, which has been raised by several previous speakers here to-day. As has been mentioned by several noble Lords, there has been a recent and most interesting report on this subject produced by a committee of the Royal Society. I think we should look at that report rather objectively. It is based on a much more comprehensive study of the loss of scientists and technologists holding a Ph.D. degree than anything which has been attempted before. It confirms and expands an impression gained from earlier sample surveys that there has been an increase in emigration of scientists from this country since 1950. The proportion of Ph.D.s emigrating, your Lordships will recall, is stated in the report to have risen from 8 per cent. in 1952 to a figure of about 17 per cent. during the last three or four years; after going through a slight peak in 1957 when it was about 19 per cent. Basically, the loss has risen from 8 to 17 per cent. When you bear in mind the fact that those taking a Ph.D. degree, in general, represent the abler section of our graduates, no one can regard these figures with equanimity. At the same time, I would say that one equally need not be alarmist about it.
It is true, as has been pointed out already to-day, that no figures are given in the report for immigrants into this country; and undoubtedly, particularly at the highest quality level, if you included the high-level immigrants to this country during the last ten years you would find that the net loss is considerably less than would appear. To that extent the figures in the report require some qualification. But the report, I think, naturally and rightly concentrates a good deal of attention on the emigration to the United States, where the proportion of Ph.D.s emigrating has gone up from about 4 per cent. to 7 per cent. in the same period. That corresponds, of course, in actual numbers to an increase by a factor of three.
It is true, as the Royal Society report points out, that new emigration from the United States to this country is negligible. It is equally true that this is the loss of scientists which has aroused most public

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comment and concern. But the trouble is that when you look at a subject like this, it is extremely difficult to find any single or simple answer for it. It is all too easy to say, as some do, that it is entirely owing to the inadequate provision of facilities for scientists in this country. This doubtless may be a factor; but, surely, higher salaries and the higher standard of living in the United States—again a reflection of their expanding economy and higher gross national product—are also factors. There are one or two other important, if less obvious, factors that are involved in this matter. One of the things that interested me about the Royal Society report was the information it contained that of all the Ph.D.s that emigrate permanently to America, some 50 per cent. go to America first in the actual year when they take the Ph.D. degree. As a professor of chemistry—and remember that chemistry is the science which supplies, I think, the largest number of these emigrants—I am only too well aware of the fact that there has been a very great increase in the number of high-value post-doctoral fellowships offered to young men at the Ph.D. stage to go to America for research work. There are so many that even a very average Ph.D. can get one fairly easily. I think we have to remember that these young men going off at that stage are at a very impressionable age, and they are also just at the stage when they are beginning to look around for the possibility of a permanent post. Another factor which I do not think one can ignore completely is that they are also at a very biologically impressionable age, and that an American wife can be a very strong pull towards the other side of the Atlantic.
Roughly speaking, I believe that as long as the flood of these American postdoctoral fellowships continues at its present level—that is to say, as long as the American economy keeps expanding—we are going to continue to suffer loss by emigration. I do not think it will be stopped simply by an increase in postdoctoral fellowships here. As has been mentioned by other speakers this afternoon, it is natural and, indeed, eminently desirable that young men of science should go abroad to widen their experience. I did it myself, for that matter, although I went to Germany rather than to the
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United States. I confess that I find it rather disheartening to see that, largely because of these high-value fellowships, the vast majority of our young people go to do their post-doctoral work in America, to the neglect of Europe. There is room for some effort here, although I think it will take quite a substantial effort, because, alas!, the language problem operates in favour of America, and this despite the fact that it is of very great advantage to a young scientist to acquire a real command of a second language.
On the emigration side, one has to remember that at a somewhat later stage in a scientist's career emigration has always gone on to some extent, and is likely to continue. Science is international and its practitioners will always be less restricted in their movements by national boundaries than is the case with most other professions. It is true, also, that a young scientist, say in his thirties, who is looking around for a senior position—a professorship, or something like that—will take one wherever it is offered, provided always that the facilities for doing his work are correct. In many cases it is often the actual time at which a post becomes vacant or a new one is created that may determine whether or not he emigrates.
My Lords, I am tempted to quote my own case in this matter. Shortly before the war, before I was a professor in this country, I received an extremely tempting offer from the United States. This offer I should undoubtedly have accepted had it not been for the entirely unpredictable death just at that time of the holder of an important Chair of Chemistry in this country. All I can say, my Lords, is that, had it not been for that person's dying at that juncture, I should to-day be merely an entry in the Royal Society report.
I would not have your Lordships think for a moment that I underrate the danger to this country of the loss of able scientists. We have to try to minimise the loss. But I think we have to face the fact that the United States has quite openly admitted that she is seeking to recruit scientists overseas. And, almost to echo the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, one might say, "Why not?" If she has an expanding economy and needs scientists, naturally she will recruit them where she can get them. But in these

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circumstances, as long as America has an expanding economy, I think we have to expect temptation to be put in the way of our young men. In order to ensure that too many of them are not lost to us in this way, I believe that we, in the first instance, must seek to expand our economy and raise our national income.
It is not simply a matter of providing more scope in the universities. More important, I think, may be a quickening of the pace and a change in the character of research in our industry. I believe that, in the end, everything will turn on that; and I believe, too, that the Government have a very considerable part to play in this matter. But if they are going to do it properly, they must find a way of concentrating applied research and development, financed by the Government, on those fields which are most likely to make a real contribution to economic growth and to the improvement of our export trade.
5.21 p.m.
LORD CASEY: My Lords, quite recently I spent almost three weeks in Geneva at the United Nations Conference on the Application of Science and Technology for the Benefit of the Less Developed Areas; and, by reason of my belief in the international importance of the subject matter of this Conference, and the fact that I was the only Member of your Lordships' House who was a delegate to it, I think I might seek to describe the Conference as briefly as I can to you. It was a very large Conference indeed, with over 1,500 delegates from 90 countries, in addition to many scores of representatives of the United Nations bodies, the Specialised Agencies, and other non-official, non-Governmental bodies; and the Conference went on for two and a half weeks. The purpose, of course, was to attempt to bridge the economic gap between the developed and the under-developed countries by the more rapid propagation of science and technology in the less developed countries.
I believe that one of the reasons I was asked to lead the Australian delegation to this Conference, and to be a Vice-Chairman of it, was the fact that four years ago I moved a resolution at the United Nations on behalf of Australia
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seeking to draw the attention of the United Nations very much more pointedly to the special contribution that science and technology could make to the promotion of human welfare. To my great surprise, this resolution was accepted unanimously at the United Nations, which is not a usual thing. This gave me a place personally in the chain of events that led up to this recent Conference, and, I think, to my presence at it.
The Conference was mentioned in a few lines, in futuro, in the Report of the Advisory Council on Scientific Policy, as a great international gathering that was shortly to take place. As the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, was good enough to give me an opportunity to say, by way of interjection, the word "UNCSAT" comes from the capital letters, in abbreviated form, of the rather long and clumsy description of the Conference; and I think this synthetic word "UNCSAT" must share with "Pugwash" the distinction of being one of the most non-euphonious descriptions of international conferences that could ever have emerged.
The Conference was attended by very large numbers of distinguished scientists and others, the names of many of whom are household words in many countries. Although is invidious to mention individuals, I think some of the names which I shall mention may well be known to a considerable number of your Lordships. The British delegation was led (and very well led, if I may say so) by Sir William Slater, lately Secretary of the Agricultural Research Council. Professor P. M. S. Blackett, of the Imperial College, was a delegate, as was Sir Harold Himsworth, Secretary of the Medical Research Council. And. of course, there were a great many other men of distinction. On the American side, Dr. Walsh McDermott was the Chairman of their very large delegation, which included Dr. Detlev Bronk; Dr. Rabi; Dr. Jerome Wiesner, who is the scientific adviser to President Kennedy; Harlan Cleveland, of the State Department; Harrison Brown; and many other people whose names are well known. From India, there was Professor Bhabha and Professor Mahalonobis; from Pakistan Professor Abdus Salam and Dr. Siddigni: and from France Professor Rougier. There were also, of course, a

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great many others whom one should mention, if there were time.
The Conference, of course, suffered from the very fact of its enormous size, which inevitably placed a limiting factor on its achievement. In spite of that, and of all the many other ancillary difficulties from which a Conference of this size must suffer, I believe that there was a very great impetus given to the purpose of the Conference, which was to drive home to the lesser developed countries the economic value to them of the proper use of science and technology. The agenda itself was framed (though I feel that this was an error) to promote discussions on the 1,800-odd scientific papers that were written for the Conference by various members of the large number of countries involved. That provided the agenda of the Conference—the sub-division of the subject-matter of these 1,800 papers conveniently into twelve main divisions. These were discussed in no fewer than 80 different sessions, which meant, of course, that four or five sessions were going on at the same time on various groups of subjects.
In effect, however, there were two Conferences going on at the same time in Geneva at UNCSAT. One was the formal session of the Conference to discuss the subject-matter of the many papers submitted; and the other (I think probably the more important of the two) was composed of small, unofficial groups to discuss the follow-up of the Conference, and how the lesser developed countries were, in practice, to take advantage of these two magic words, "science" and "technology". These discussions were not held in any formal way, but by small groups of twos and threes in corridors and in small rooms. I think that these turned out in practice to be an informal way of getting over the fact that the formal agenda of the Conference was not really the main purpose: that so far as the lesser developed countries were concerned it was the future which interested them a great deal more. In my view it was a great pity that the follow-up of the Conference, to discuss the machinery, by which the objective of the Conference could be achieved, did not, in fact, form part of the formal agenda of the Conference, so that it could be discussed not in a hole-and-corner way in corridors
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and small rooms but in the Conference sessions themselves.
My Lords, I will not attempt to deal in any way with the subject-matter of these 1,800 papers that were presented to the Conference, which provided a pile at the side of each delegate which was over three feet high, and which, of course, it was entirely impossible for any individual to absorb, even in very small degree. I will not attempt to describe that side of it; but I believe that what that vast number of papers (which I am quite sure were of high importance, by reason of their content) really did to the great bulk of people attending the Conference was to demonstrate what scientific and technological knowledge can be produced by well-organised science—largely, of course, in the well-developed countries. I feel that that was the broad lesson that those 1,800 papers had to give.
I should like to speak of what I regard as some of the highlights of the conference, and possibly, in a way, of some of the lessons that may be learnt from it, because it was unique. I think it is the first time in the world that a conference of this size, with this very wide representation, has ever been held, and certainly it is quite easily the biggest conference of its sort, or of almost any other sort, that has ever been held. The two largest delegations were those from the United Kingdom and from the United States, each of which had something very comfortably (or possibly uncomfortably) more than 100 delegates in them. The Russian delegation was rather smaller: there were only about 38 people. But they included no fewer than seven Academicians of the U.S.S.R.
I noticed that in the British delegation neither the Minister nor the Permanent Head, nor any senior member of the Department of Technical Co-operation had a place in the conference. I should have thought, in my ignorance, that this was the Department most principally concerned in this sort of conference. I also did not see any but very junior members (and I hope I am doing no-one an injury) of the Foreign Office; and no representative of the Colonial Office or the Commonwealth Relations Office. A number of the other delegations, including the American, had the equivalent senior

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representation of all these departments. I am quite sure the British delegation was able to cope with all the technical matters involved in the conference, but I was not conscious that Sir William Slater had any senior advice on the inevitable mixture of political and diplomatic, and on what may be called the "shenaggling" which almost always goes on at a conference of this kind attended by representatives of 90 nations. The British delegation, so far as I could see, was therefore at a distinct disadvantage.
The American delegation, on the other hand, was well-equipped on the scientific and technological sides and also had very senior individuals from the State Department and other relevant departments, and the President's own staff, to cope with all the non-scientific matters—political, diplomatic and shenaggling—that do, and did, arise. The delegation of the Soviet Union was also on a high level, though rather smaller than the British or the U.S. delegations.
There was no very serious attempt at introducing competitive ideologies in the discussions, but the Soviet delegation reminded us consistently, in a good-natured way, that "anything we could do they could do better". One of the disappointments of the conference was the comparative under-representation of a number of the less-developed countries in Asia, Africa, and, so far as we are concerned, the West Indies. Whether that was from lack of appropriately qualified individuals to send as delegates, or by reason of the cost, I do not know. I should think that at any future conference of this kind the lesser-developed countries should be as well represented as possible. Here, they were just the audience to which all the rest of us were speaking.
In spite of that, the voices of the lesser-developed areas were loud and clear, although most of us had to discover this for ourselves in smaller discussion groups with the representatives of the Asian, African and Caribbean countries. They complained, in particular, of the embarrassing number of United Nations' Specialised Agencies. Each of these had some small and fragmentary responsibility in coping with some aspect or other of science and technology. When they had a problem of a particular sort on which they wanted advice and guidance they did not know where to turn, except
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methodically to go through the nine United Nations Agencies before they could discover where they should have gone in the first place. They complained that there was no co-ordination or concentration of sources of advice in the United Nations or the Specialised Agencies to which under-developed countries could turn.
The whole of this conference was, in fact, discussing the United Nations and the United Nations Agencies as sources of aid on the scientific and technological side. For some reason there was no forum there to deal with the comparative utility, virtue or value of bilateral aid, under the Colombo Plan, or otherwise, on the one hand, and aid through the United Nations and the Specialised Agencies on the other. That was never discussed at all. Everything said at this conference had a relevance to the United Nations machinery and set-up.
One of the complaints of the lesser-developed countries was of the many gaps in the United Nations' structure of machinery for aid on science and technology—gaps on the developmental side and on the industrial development side. Nowhere could they turn in the United Nations family for aid, advice or guidance on these matters. They had difficulty on many occasions in getting the services of well-qualified experts on particular subjects, scientific and technological, in a reasonable period of time. They complained of the immense delay between the time of a request for an individual of a certain qualification and the time when that individual was made available to them. These various complaints were aired at our gatherings, and a suggestion was made that a completely new Specialised Agency should be set up to cope with all the scientific and technological subjects so far as the United Nations and the lesser-developed countries were concerned. A number of us argued against this proposal because, in our opinion, this would have made confusion rather worse confounded than it is now.
Another suggestion made by the underdeveloped countries was that there should be a radical reco-ordination and rationalisation of all the scientific and technological needs as between the sphere of the United Nations and its Specialised Agencies. This may be logical, but it

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would be extremely difficult to achieve, because the Specialised Agencies of the United Nations are practically autonomous bodies who are quite independent of the United Nations itself. They have their own funds and their own constitutions, and I believe that they would be most unlikely to yield to a suggested rationalisation and co-ordination of all their activities since it would mean that a number of them would thereby lose some part of their present functions and responsibilities.
An interesting fact to me was that economic planning was widely recommended to the developing countries by the developed countries. It seemed that planning had certainly become respectable—at any rate for other countries. The thought in my mind consistently during the conference was that one of the effects that must certainly come from it will be a very insistent demand for more money for development for under-developed countries. I often took occasion to speak of the difficulties that some of the great countries face in finding more money for developing and for international aid to the smaller countries, due to problems over the balance of payments. I suggested that it would not be beyond the wit of man to hold a close investigation of the balance-of-payments problem and try to find a solution—a device, if you like—whereby international aid, properly defined, would not be allowed to affect adversely the balance-of-payments position of the donor country and so, at one remove, to menace that country's currency.
I am sure that your Lordships will be aware that many countries in the world have a balance-of-payments problem of one sort or another and any appreciably sized demand of the underdeveloped countries for more aid is going to come up hard against this problem of the balance of payments. But, as I have just said, I cannot believe that it is beyond the wit of man to find a solution. No doubt it is a matter, in the first place, for the International Monetary Fund.
The follow-up of this conference will be in the hands of the Economic and Social Council at its July meeting. Meanwhile, between now and July, the Secretary-General of the United Nations, U Thant, is calling a gathering of
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representatives of the countries who provided vice-chairmen to the conference—about fifteen countries—to meet with him in New York and discuss informally what came out of the conference and what he would seek to address to the Ecosoc when they meet in July. Being wise after the event, I think that the conference would have had more point and more prestige if it had placed on its agenda the application of scientific and technological aid and the machinery by which it is to be provided, rather than the multitude of scientific papers which in fact formed 100 per cent. of the formal agenda.
I am very conscious of the difficulty of trying to present to your Lordships any realistic picture of a conference of this sort and of this size in a relatively short time. In conclusion, I would say that this conference, to me at least, emphasised a matter which in recent years has become increasingly important—that is, the place of science and technology in international relations. International aid to the under-developed is of high and increasing importance to the economy of the world, as I think we all realise. I believe that the optimum channels for the translation of our accumulated scientific and technological knowledge into the minds and into practical utility in the hands of the lesser developed countries, have by no means been reached. I think that the conference will help and that the follow-up which Ecosoc may be moved to create in July will also be of help, but no country should cease thinking about improving their means of using science and technology in the interests of the lesser developed countries. There is room for a great deal of thought on almost every aspect of this problem, and it would be very rewarding if we could get the techniques, the machinery and the methods of to-day much improved.
5.44 p.m.
LORD FLECK: My Lords, I feel that the thanks of this House are due to the Lord President of the Council for the very full way in which he initiated this debate, which from the point of view of the scientific work of this country is one of considerable importance. The Motion that he has put down is divided into two parts which are quite distinct. First of all, it deals with the Report of the Advisory Council and, secondly, it deals

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with the support of the Government to science.
So far as the Annual Report of the Council is concerned, I do not propose to say very much about international cooperation in science matters, except to say that increased co-operation must expand. I am sure that we are all agreed that it should do so with reason and in a balanced way. The noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, made the point. I would remind your Lordships that the Report says:
"… we believe that it is a mistake to suppose that it is preferable to resort to international activities whenever possible simply because it is politically desirable to extend the area of international co-operation".
It quotes the Minister for Science, the Leader of this House, as the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, as reminded us, as suggesting that
"it should not be supposed that international co-operation is a substitute for national excellence".
To my mind, that is a very wise remark from the Leader of the House and one that we want to see widely acknowledged over the whole front of scientific work. All this adds up to the wisdom of international co-operation in scientific work proceeding in a balanced way. In order to do that, scientific discussion between international groups should be recognised as a valuable tool to that end and I hope that it will be encouraged in whatever way is possible. Again, I would refer to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, about East German scientists.
Before leaving discussion of the contents of the Report, I should like to comment very favourably on Sections V and VI of it, those sections dealing with theoretical astronorny and seismology. These are subjects which, in this day and generation, are by no means popular, and the Report lays out ways and means by which they could be strengthened. Astronomy, of course, is one of the earliest sciences to be developed. We need only refer to the work of the Chinese astronomers, of the Grecian astronomers, of Copernicus, of Kepler, of Galileo and of our own incomparable Isaac Newton, for 27 years President of the Royal Society, to appreciate that astronomy lies at the very roots of our scientific philosophy.
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Yet what a small fraction of the British universities have Chairs of astronomy? I think that there are only seven that have straightforward, or what you might call relatively simple, Chairs of astronomy in the list of their professors. I believe, therefore, that the Report is wise to keep up the pressure for further astronomical studies. These studies have a further beneficial effect. They stimulate in a practical way the study of mathematics, and, as one whose mathematics have always been ridiculously meagre, I believe that the production of mathematicians, adequate both in number and in quality, is one of the prime requirements of our educational system as we know it at present, and even more so when we consider how it ought to be enlarged and extended. Seismology, again, is another of our relatively neglected studies. Yet it is important in the ascertainment of the structure of the earth. The science is a relatively recent one and as a scientific discipline it is worthy of the additional encouragement which the Report shows is being given to it.
I would rapidly pass, however, to the second part of the Motion—namely, that part which invites us to realise the encouragement for science given by Her Majesty's Government. Here I think it right to declare my interest—not, of course, that there are any personal financial aspects, but merely that as a member of the Advisory Council I am a party to the Report we have been discussing. More importantly, however, I am the present Treasurer of the Royal Society, and, as such, I am involved in many activities financed by the Royal Society from funds which come to us from a variety of sources. I am far from saying that science organisations are anything like satisfied by the support they are receiving from Government sources; and to show that there are projects which the Royal Society considers should be undertaken, and for which extended support should be given, I would mention, first of all, the whole science of oceanography. That is one which in our judgment requires very much extended support. A phased scheme was put forward some two years ago, but no extended and additional effort is being made.
Then, again, we have stressed the wisdom of an expedition to the South Indian

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Ocean—I emphasise the South Indian Ocean—and particularly to such islands as Kerguelen, New Amsterdam, Crozet, St. Paul, and so on. This has actually been denied. The importance of this expedition is the study of the development, by the processes of nature, of biological phenomenon not influenced by human activity. This is a series of islands not yet influenced, or, if you like, not yet contaminated, by human activities. If these studies are not carried out now it may well be that it will be too late for them to be undertaken with the results that are desired.
Again, we want more research professors, and we want a more liberal attitude to the consequential activity following the International Geophysical Year—namely, for the International Quiet Sun Years for 1964–65, again referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton. We have not many locations in this universe where there is reason to think that in the next year or two we shall have conditions which we can properly describe as relatively quiet. Where we can confidently anticipate relative peacefulness, I should hope that we can spend a reasonable effort in studying it and making sure that we can understand it to the best of our ability.
However, having given these instances to show your Lordships that the science community is far from being satisfied and is in no danger of becoming complacent, I think it wise to express a measure of appreciation for the encouragement that we have so far been given. There is the agreement of the Government to the appointing by the Royal Society of five research professors, duly financed with salary and (I make this important addition) duly financed with money for equipment. There is the agreement to Great Britain's taking part in the International Indian Ocean Expedition, as already mentioned by the Lord President of the Council, helped, among other means, by the new research ship "Discovery", which some of us were able to see when she was recently in the Pool of London. And let us not forget—it is well worth remembering, and well worth emphasising—that there are the impressive contributions made to science by the operations of the D.S.I.R. and the University Grants Committee.
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However, as I have indicated, I wish to focus attention on the contribution made by the Government, through the Royal Society, and to commend those activities to your Lordships' favourable attention. It all began when Her late Majesty Queen Anne appointed by Royal Warrant the President of the Society and nominees of its Council to be "the constant visitors" of the Observatory at Greenwich. Then in 1849 the Royal Society was invited to aid the Government with its advice and assistance on the appropriation and expenditure of a grant by the Government for the promotion of scientific inquiries. The point I want to emphasise is that the Royal Society was invited to do this, and accepted the invitation, retaining complete freedom of point of view. That method of administration and that freedom has been maintained right to this day. Of course, the grants have been very materially increased and have continued to be expended on scientific inquiry. It is, to my mind, most important and most heartening that, in spite of all thoughts in a contrary direction, the Government have continued to use this unofficial method—and again I emphasise, with complete freedom of approach—and have used the labours of the Royal Society, voluntary so far as the Fellows are concerned, and free from direct Government direction, so far as the Royal Society staff are involved. This, to my mind, is a valuable spreading of responsibility. Its effect is that the unrestricted wisdom of the Fellows, with their unique accumulated knowledge, is at the disposal of the Government.
A relatively recent example of this on a major scale is the National Physical Laboratory, brought into existence, as no doubt many of your Lordships know, at the beginning of this century. The Royal Society was then used, and has since been used, as an actual part of the executive machinery. Of course, there have been revisions in the method of organisation, and no doubt there will be further revisions. The place of the Royal Society as a key point has been maintained through the last sixty or so years, and was reaffirmed by the noble Marquess, Lord Salisbury, when in April, 1956, he spoke as Lord President of the Council and said:
"It is our full intention to retain the present relationship between the Royal Society and

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the National Physical Laboratory, subject to discussion with the Royal Society of any changes of detail in these arrangements which may seem necessary from time to time."
All these unofficial activities of the Royal Society are essentially made possible by an elaborate system of committees. I think there are something like 100 of them—a vision that in itself is a frightening one. Nevertheless, they have proved quick in action and effective in results. I have heard the Society likened to the nervous system of the body scientific in this country. It is a very sensitive machine and receives and sends out important information and responses to the whole structure of science. The most recent example of additional major activity was the administration of the British part of the 1957–58 International Geophysical Year. The Royal Society was given by Her Majesty's Government something of the order of £600,000 for the carrying out of the British section of this activity all over the world, including the Halley Bay Station in Antarctica, and, so far as I am aware, the efficiency of that organisation was acknowledged in a wholehearted appreciation.
In general, I would impress upon your Lordships that the support that Her Majesty's Government give to science is in considerable or at least appreciable, measure, and is made effective by the use of this voluntary organisation the Royal Society. One of the features of successful development in scientific matters is that there must be evident a spirit of enthusiasm. Experience has shown that the Royal Society can supply that spirit of enthusiasm, unstinted and sustained and with the minimum of red tape. That is a vital contribution by the Society.
The Fellows are under no compulsion to fall in with official ideas, and they are free to criticise. The non-Governmental position of the Society and the intellectual freedom are important characteristics of it, and within that freedom the contributions of the Fellows, through the Society's organisation, is a great and, I venture to think, a worthy one. I trust that the Minister for Science and, indeed, all the Government scientific machine will continue to use the energy—I believe the wise energy—and the great knowledge that the Fellows of the Royal Society have made available in
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the past and can equally willingly make available in the future.
6.2 p.m.
LORD CHORLEY: My Lords, I hope the noble Lord who has just resumed his seat will forgive me if I do not follow in the interesting observations which he has made, although I am sure that we have all been quite fascinated by his most lucid and interesting account of the work of the Royal Society and of the part which it plays in science in this country and, indeed, in world science. I believe it is the oldest institution of its kind in the world, and it is certainly one of the great institutions of this country.
I thought—and the noble Viscount who leads the House will forgive my saying so—that the sober appreciation of the work of the Royal Society given by the noble Lord, Lord Fleck, was in striking contrast to the rather exuberant sentimentality of the opening passages, at any rate, of the noble Viscount's speech. I confess that I much preferred the later part of it when he was dealing with facts. The noble Lord, Lord Fleck, said that science was in no danger of becoming complacent. I must say that during the earlier part of the noble Viscount's speech I felt that that was a danger which he was deliberately running himself into. We are proud of our science and the outstanding contributions which it has made to the discovery of scientific principles, and the honour in which it is held in the world. But we are in great danger if we allow informed criticism of the kind which has been taking place this afternoon, and in the scientific Press and, indeed, in the general Press over the last months and years, to count as denigration and to be dismissed in the offhand way in which the noble Viscount, I thought, tended to dismiss it.
The noble Viscount completely misjudged the conditions of scientists in the United States of America. The reason why they are coming over here to try to induce our best young men to go there is that science is so flourishing in the United States, and the number of Nobel Prizes which have been awarded to American scientists in the years since the end of the war has been remarkable. In the same way, it seems to me that the noble Viscount has completely misunderstood secondary education in

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America. He ought to know better, as he has a foot in that country. Many people who know a great deal about secondary education in America say that it takes a wider and more general grasp of what is required for the young people than our rather more specialised system in this country. At any rate, it is certainly not to be dismissed in the way in which the noble Viscount tended to dismiss it. True, he finished up by saying that he was not responsible for it, more or less indicating that he was not looking for the job of putting it right. As he runs about the country putting so many things right, one almost wonders whether he might not have offered to put that right too.
The main gap which I found in the noble Viscount's speech—and he may well have a technical answer to this—is that he hardly touched on the use of science and technology in industry, which has been underlined by later speakers and particularly by the noble Lord, Lord Todd, in his valuable contribution this afternoon. I can assure the noble Viscount that many of our leading scientists who are most closely in touch with industry do not share his general optimism about the situation. The noble Lord, Lord Todd, who we know is very closely in touch with industry, more or less indicated this afternoon that that was his view. I had the pleasure of spending a weekend at Cambridge only two or three weeks ago, and had the chance of speaking to a number of the most eminent scientists there, among them the Cavendish Professor and other scientists who are very much concerned with science in industry. I can assure the noble Viscount that they are far from satisfied with the situation.
I am assured that the real fact of the matter—and I think this is so from what I have seen of it myself—is that in wide areas of our industry the leaders do not have sufficient understanding of science and of its application to industry to make the best use of the scientific manpower which they have been attracting into industry, without knowing, how to use it, during the period since the end of the war. I was interested to find that the Cavendish Professor, who has a great deal of experience, was very much of that opinion. The turnover of scientists even
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in some of our biggest industrial engineering concerns is very large indeed. I was assured only the other day by a young man working in the scientific department of one of our biggest organisations, and who has been there only three years, that he was the last one who went in; there is not a single other one there now. That is very cogent evidence of this wastage of scientific manpower which is going on in industry at the present time, and which we have to find some method of putting right if we are going to make the sort of progress which the noble Viscount seems to think we are already making, which I very much doubt.
I have always been interested myself in visiting Germany and other important Continental industrial countries to find how high is the proportion of technologists and engineers on the boards of management of their big concerns. That is apart from quite a small number of concerns in this country such as Imperial Chemicals, who have always gone in for having outstanding scientists on their board. It is a comparatively rare thing in this country. It stands to reason that unless you have people on your top management who really appreciate how science works, you are not going to make the best use of scientists and technologists when you bring them into industry.
The debate this afternoon has touched continually on the problem of the flight of good scientific workers from this country, and particularly from our universities, to the United States and other places overseas. I should like to suggest that among the reasons for this is the chequered history of the salary negotiations during the post-war period. I have been mixed up in this, and perhaps I ought to declare an interest which I have mentioned before. For a number of years I have been actively engaged in the work of the Association of University Teachers, and I have been in all these salary negotiations over the last twelve years or so. Indeed, I have raised the question in this Chamber of the unfortunate situation which has been created by the application of the pay pause, to which I think the noble Viscount referred in an aside in the course of his speech. Claims had already been put in by the Association of University Teachers to the University Grants Committee before, and quite a long time before, the pay pause started.

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Naturally, I do not want to go into the details of this again but the mass of university teachers undoubtedly feel that they were cheated on this occasion and there is no real sign that this frustration is, so to speak, wearing out. It is still very strongly felt and it is significant that more than one letter which I have seen during the last week or two since the Royal Society's Report was issued has referred to this particular episode as being, for a man who had been undecided, the determining factor in his finally deciding to accept a post in America that had been offered to him. This was the determining factor that brought him, so to speak, to decide to accept the post and go to the United States. The point is that so many people have become exasperated as a result of Treasury conduct in regard to this matter—and of Government conduct because the Government must accept responsibility for it—that it has brought them to a state of nerves and makes them take decisions which quite possibly they may regret afterwards.
This was just one episode in a long series of pin-pricks—or should I call them dagger thrusts, as that might be a more accurate phrase?—which have irritated and brought university people to a state of exasperation in which it is very difficult for them to approach in a properly calm state of mind these problems as to whether they should accept positions in America or elsewhere abroad. The Government have really made no effort to soothe them. Whatever they represent in the community—and university people think that they represent basic values—the Government no doubt say that they do not represent very many votes, and the Government have not concerned themselves with the views that these people hold in the sort of way they concern themselves with the views of a trade union which commands the votes of millions of voters; and that is a very unfortunate thing.
Even now, after the noble Viscount himself has assured us more than once that as soon as the pay pause was over the just demands (and I think he used the words "just demands") of the university people would be promptly dealt with, the Government have not carried out that promise. They have referred the new claim which was put in last year
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to the body called "Nicky"—in effect, taking it out of the hands of the University Grants Committee—and that means that all the paraphernalia of backwards and forwards discussions will have to go on again; a decision will take weeks longer and exasperation will increase. It is quite true that a provisional grant of 10 per cent. has been made, and no doubt up to a point the Government will feel that they have made a fairly generous gesture. But I can assure the noble Viscount that that has had very little effect from the point of view of removing the exasperation to which I have just referred, which is undoubtedly the sort of thing which causes people to decide to go away to America where the outlook of the universities in matters of this sort is very much more generous.
I think it is important to notice that this applies over the whole field of university work. It is not peculiar just to scientists. Indeed, as the noble Viscount will have seen, there is a very important letter from the Chairman of the Committee of Vice-Chancellors, Professor Mansfield Cooper, who is Vice-Chancellor of the University of Manchester, in The Times to-day strongly underlining that particular point, and, indeed, pointing out that the Americans are not only coming here looking for scientists but for eminent men in other fields of scholarship and activity. In my own knowledge as a law teacher in a university I know how very competent the Americans are at picking out the best men we have in order to offer them very highly paid chairs in their best universities.
However, I think it would be a very serious mistake to think of this matter only in the terms of money. University teachers are not just money grubbers, although naturally they are interested in their salaries and in having a reasonably good salary on which they can maintain the position in society which they claim is theirs. But they are proud people with a pretty good idea, possibly too good an idea, of the important place they have in the community and the importance of the work they are doing in the community and they object to being treated like a lot of office boys, which is very much the attitude the Treasury seem to take up with regard to them.
Prime Ministers, and, if I may say so, Lord Presidents, are happy and proud

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to accept the chancellorships of universities and to receive honorary degress from them. Therefore, they ought to take a great deal more care to see that university people are not pushed around in the way that has been going on over the last years in connection not only with the actual amounts of the salaries but with the way in which the awards, from time to time, when they have been made, have been implemented. One peculiarly irritating source of exasperation has been the delay over the awards; which naturally cannot be altogether avoided. But after that, instead of appreciating what this means and back-dating the awards, as occurs almost invariably when an industrial arbitrator makes an award, the Government have taken the opposite line and forward-dated them, so that although the claim might have been in for a minimum of twelve months, or in some cases for something like two years, the time from which the award will operate has, as on the last occasion, been fixed several months in advance. It is not really surprising if you find people in the universities feeling that they have, in effect, been cheated out of increments for twelve months or two years.
That is undoubtedly a very real source of grievance and exasperation and they feel they are being discriminated against in a thoroughly unjust way, because if the miners' federation or the engineers' union were treated in that way there would be a grave risk of them all going out on strike and of the Government having to face a very serious situation, which they know perfectly well they will not have to face when they behave in this way towards the people who work and teach in the universities. But I doubt very much whether this is a fundamental cause of this trouble, and I do not altogether agree with the noble Lord, Lord Todd, when he says that too much emphasis has been placed on conditions of work in America and in parts of the Commonwealth to which these people are going. I and a very large number of my colleagues feel that one of the basic reasons which attract our natural scientists and social scientists to the United States particularly is the admirable conditions of work which exist there.
During the inter-war years we went through a long period of stagnation in which very little was done in the way
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of building new laboratories. I remember that at one of our most important provincial universities one of the leading chemists in Europe was offered a chair and he went to see where he was expected to carry on his work. The laboratory was exactly as it had been before the First World War, and when he saw it he said, "I cannot work here" and went away. That, I think, was typical of the situation in almost all the provincial universities. It is true that a great deal has been done since the end of the last war to remedy that situation, and we are undoubtedly slowly making up. But this is not a high enough priority, and the laboratories are being built very slowly, and often by the time they are ready they are too small for the number of students now being accepted into the departments. I have seen that time after time as I have been round visiting universities.
The cost is very heavy and it is going to be very much heavier. One of the things this country has to face up to is spending a great deal more of its national income on the provision of education facilities and equipment. We must learn that we have got to put education before butter; and we have got to put education before guns, too, if we are to carry through the scientific development and industrial development we require in order to raise the standard of living in this country to a proper level. Too much is being allowed (and I am very glad to find the Government are at last awaking to this fact) to go into the erection of enormous office blocks in London and Manchester, and other big towns, when the materials and labour involved would be very much better put into the building and equipment of scientific laboratories.
Another point which I am quite sure is of very great importance (and it was referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Adrian) in inducing people to go away to America is the heaviness of the teaching burden. We expect our people not only to do fundamental research work but to spend anything from ten to fifteen hours a week teaching students, with all that that entails in the way of preparation for teaching. It just is not possible to carry on for many years in that way without running the risk of a breakdown. If a man has the opportunity of going to the

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States and of spending practically the whole time in a first-class laboratory, with very little onerous teaching responsibilities, pit is not to be wondered at that he should jump at the chance.
I think that perhaps the most serious thing which comes out of the Royal Society Report is the fact that we are now in danger of losing, I will not say the pre-eminent position, but the very high position, which we have for a very long time enjoyed in fundamental scientific work. It is all very well to refer to the Nobel Prizewinners. They are established men. They are not these young Ph.D.s we have been hearing about. In any case, 1962 was a very exceptional year. If the noble Viscount had gone back over the ten previous years he would not have found anything like that annus mirabilis.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, I did go back, and I pointed out that since the end of the war we had, I think, earned 20 Nobel Prizes, which was more than the total gained by any other country except America.
LORD CHORLEY: I am grateful to the noble Viscount: I must have missed that part of his speech. Certainly 1962 showed a very much higher number than any other year. If the noble Viscount takes away the four or five we got, then he would find the average was very much smaller. What the Royal Society Report shows is that we are now losing the young men, the Nobel Prizewinners of the future, and it is not easy to see how we are to keep them. I think it would be very well if those who really know about these things, people like the noble Lord, Lord Todd, and the noble Lord, Lord Adrian, would give a great deal of thought to this particular problem, because it is one of outstanding importance.
I should like to close by referring for a few minutes to the very unusual case in which efforts seem to be being made by the establishment to drive one of our most brilliant young scientists out of this country. I refer to the case of Dr. Denys Tucker. I appreciate that it would not be right to take a great deal of time over this case this evening. I hope that there will be an opportunity, when the Bill for reorganising the British Museum comes up, to say more about it. But it would be right, I think, in view of all this
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fuss about the scientists leaving, to refer to this case, which concerns a marine biologist of very great brilliance who was responsible, among other things, for a revolutionary new theory on the Atlantic eel migration. I need hardly emphasise the importance to this country, with its large and most important fishery industry, of problems of fish migration. This is the sort of problem on which Dr. Denys Tucker is one of the world's greatest authorities. I should like to quote what was said about Dr. Tucker's work by Professor Myers, the Professor at Stanford University in California who is thought by many people to be the leader in this branch of science in the world. He said:
"In my opinion Tucker is one of the most brilliant zoologists who has been connected with the Museum"—
that is the British Museum, Natural History—
"in recent times."
And his immediate superior in the Museum, at the time when he was dismissed, Dr. Ethelwyn Trewaras said:
"Most people who know him would agree that in intelligence he is to be classed with a few of our most brilliant colleagues."
Dr. Tucker was employed in the British Museum, Natural History Section, as a scientific officer, and was therefore an established civil servant, and he was dismissed in July, 1960, as a result of a dispute which originated in the signing of the official diaries—which seems a storm in a teacup if it could possibly lead to the dismissal of a man with such brilliant attainments as Dr. Tucker. And not only was he dismissed, but he was actually forbidden to use the library of the Natural History Museum. That is, of course, a very serious thing indeed, because it is the only library of its kind in this country in which it is possible for the fundamental work which Dr. Tucker did in connection with eels to be done. It really means that this eminent man of science is cut off from the tools of his work.
I am interested that Professor Myers not long ago issued a statement referring to this additional penalty placed against Dr. Tucker, disbarment from the libraries and collections of the museum, in which he says:
"In America there are several large ichthyological collections and libraries. In Britain there is only one. I know a good deal

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about this situation, and I can personally attest that no man in Britain can successfully carry on the profession of systematic ichthyology without frequent recourse to the collections and library of the Natural History Museum."
And yet, my Lords, this man has been debarred from going there to consult the books which are so necessary to him in his work. He has had no real opportunity of facing the charges which were made against him. I believe that he saw two of the Trustees for about ten minutes on one occasion, but he was rather given a talking to than had the case against him put to him.
I think that one of the things that we all like about the noble Viscount the Lord President is that he has a strong sense of justice, and I have personally found on a number of occasions that if he feels that an injustice has possibly been done he is prepared to go to a lot of trouble to try to have it put right. I remember bringing to his notice, when he was Minister of Education, a very small case in Somerset in connection with a local education committee where a mistake had been made. He took a great deal of personal trouble to go into it, and as a result the situation was put right. I believe that the case of Dr. Tucker has been brought to his attention, and I hope that he will decide to appoint a completely independent Commissioner to inquire into it and to report to him, so that what, at any rate on the face of it, appears to have been an injustice will be effectively investigated; and if, in fact, it is found that an injustice has been done, that it may be put right.
This is a case where a man of considerable eminence, who wants to stay in England and to work here, is, in effect, being driven out. It is most interesting to find that when Dr. Myers went to visit the National History Gallery, he had a strong impression there that they were in fact trying to force him out of Britain. These are his own words:
"I was not sure that Tucker's debarment was really intended to force him out of Britain, until I talked with the Director. He assured me that he was perfectly aware of the difficulty now facing Tucker, and asked me if I could not help him to find an overseas post! I see no escape from the conclusion that the Museum authorities are attempting to force Tucker to leave his own country …"
My Lords, that is an extraordinary situation. Dr. Tucker has in fact been offered,
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I believe on more than one occasion, a Chair in an American university; but he wants to stay in this country and to work here. In my view, his case ought to be properly investigated, and if it is found that an injustice has been done he should be reinstated. In any event, he ought to be allowed to use the library which contains the tools of his work. I hope that the noble Viscount will have a look at this case, and that he will be able to come to some conclusion about it.
6.32 p.m.
VISCOUNT STONEHAVEN: My Lords, one of the great advantages of a debate of this sort in your Lordships' House is the galaxy of talent that it draws. The only trouble is that it makes somebody like myself pretty diffident about getting on to his feet at all. However, I have done it, and I shall, for quite a short time, talk about the second part of the Motion. I wish to take the expression "scientist" in its widest term as including engineers, technologists, metallurgists, chemists and everyone who has a scientific training leading to a degree or a certificate—those who are generally called "technologists".
A short time ago a Member of your Lordships' House, a kinsman of mine, a Minister and a great friend, confessed to me that he did not know the difference between a plumber and an engineer. He is not alone in that, because it is on record in regard to an eminent scientist who appeared before a high-level Committee at the Treasury, that the chairman, a Treasury man, said that he could not understand why this scientist was so insistent upon "engineer", because, he said, after all engineers were only tram drivers. There are two high-level men who have somewhat quaint ideas. I think that it is true that in trade union terminology a tram driver and a plumber are classed as engineers because both may be members of the Engineering Union. Whether or not there is anything in that, I do not know, but certainly there is considerable confusion on the point.
I should like to congratulate the Lord President on the work that he and his Department have done in advancing science and scientific research in Government Departments. I have some idea of the difficulty that he has encountered, and while without stint I should like to give him praise, I would add, "So far,

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so good. But we expect a great deal more in the future." And, my Lords, a great deal more is necessary. It seems to me that the Service Ministries lead the way in science in the world of Government. Some of the other Ministries, although they are improving, are lagging behind—that is probably quite obvious. I would say that there are great signs of an improvement in the thinking of the Ministry of Transport. We have only to compare the Chiswick Fly-over with the Hammersmith Fly-over, or the Staines Bridge with the Medway Bridge, to find quite a different approach and type of thinking, one greatly in advance, technically anyway, of the other. I think that is all to the good.
Nevertheless, there are instances the other way. When I am going home tonight I shall find—and I have no doubt that it will annoy me just as much as it always does—that at Kings Cross mailbags are being loaded in exactly the same way as they were in 1880. It transgresses every single principle of work methods, work study; and yet nobody does anything about it. The simple provision of a wire mesh hamper on castors, and a light aluminium ramp to make up the difference between the wagon and the platform would mean that a basket of mail bags could be shifted in and shifted out at the other end, cutting out five stages of handling at both ends. But nobody will look at it. I put this point forward as something that should be looked into. I am well aware of the fact that the gestation period of an idea from your Lordships' House is about ten years. Nevertheless, I think it is still worth putting.
I think there is a lack of appreciation of the scientist by the public; but I also believe that there is a lack of appreciation by many scientists of the public. Some scientists do not seem to appreciate the problems. Some see them only from the scientific angle, and not, I would venture to suggest, in the same way as the man in the street sees his own problems. It has been said (I do not know with what truth) that in some branches of science, and particularly in physics, the best work of the scientist is done before or at about the age of 26. If that is so—and it clearly is so in a number of cases—I should have thought that that was the time to take that scientist and to train him in administration,
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public relations and management. An untrained scientist getting one of these jobs can be a menace; but if he is trained he is, I venture to suggest, a most remarkably valuable man. Suitably trained men ought to be able to get right to the top of administrative jobs in industry and in Government.
Referring to the research problems in particular, I think there are three main branches in research. There is fundamental research, which is the pure research to which the noble Viscount the Lord President referred. I entirely agree with the explanation he gave, but I was rather worried about his first definition. Then there is the research of the gap between fundamental and applied research. This second branch is largely done by Government establishments. Then there is the ordinary applied research, which is done by private firms and by research associations in industry. There is no watertight compartment, and to a certain extent I think there is an overlapping in all these things, which is all to the good. But I would say, quite definitely, that with the possible exception of fundamental research, which is in a pure class of its own, the end product of research is to improve the competitive position of our industry vis-à-vis our competitors; otherwise I see no reason for research. I think that if one does not admit that one gets into certain difficulties.
Her Majesty's Government, of course, recoup their expenditure through taxation. There appears to be a good deal of difficulty in getting industry to adopt ideas developed by Government establishments. For example, the Mechanical Engineering Research Institute developed a process in regard to the working of metals, which received a good deal of publicity, and the result was 2 inquiries from United Kingdom firms and 40 inquiries from the United States. I think that one of the difficulties probably lies in the lack of knowledge in the research institutes as to the economic aspects of their various developments. I would suggest that it would be worth considering a scheme of insurance against loss through the adoption of some of these new methods, with a generous pay-back to Her Majesty's Government if the process proved successful. That might possibly induce industry to be a little more forthcoming. I do not know whether that would be practicable;

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I merely put it forward as an idea. Moreover, when new techniques are installed, I wonder whether the engineers responsible for the new equipment spend long enough in the factories after installation to overcome "teething" problems. I also wonder whether sufficient importance is given to the humble "suggestion box" which most firms have. Many good ideas come from the operatives and they might even form the basis for a certain amount of research. I think that this is a possibility.
The noble Lord, Lord Todd, made some very interesting remarks on the problem of scientists going to America. He pointed to the biological aspect, although not, I think, as a subject for research in the future. But I would point out to him that the lasses in Scotland are just as bonny as those in America—and some of us Scotsmen have even come over and collared one from England and taken her back home. Well, it has a settling effect; and I should like to see investigated the possibilities of, perhaps, a marriage allowance or some other method whereby a young man who wishes to marry can get more money when he needs it most. I think the present trend that the older you get the more money you receive, does not meet the need here. I would much rather see these young men get a "wallop" now and nothing more for five years or so, in order to see them over their early days of marriage. I believe that would have quite a stabilising effect. If the scientist wanted to go abroad his wife would not let him, and I think a method of this sort might keep some of them at home. This point has been fully gone into by the noble Lord, Lord Todd.
I have seen Press reports of a committee which goes to America in order to coax back scientists and which has had a certain amount of success in doing so. It is said that it costs £400 to get a scientist back, and they are said to get about sixty of them to return a year. Whether that is true or not I do not know, but the Press reports also go on to ask whether it would not be better to keep them here by paying them the extra £400. I think that is entirely false. First of all, I do not think that it would keep them here, and, secondly, it has no regard to the value of the cross-
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fertilisation which occurs and which I think is a very important point in relation to people going overseas to get further experience.
I should like now to mention the status of the engineer. Not so long ago it used to be said that engineers were not the kind of people who joined one's club. I would put it exactly the other way: unfortunately, the people who join my clubs are not engineers. I think that gives a very much truer picture of the position.
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: My Lords, may I follow up this point? What clubs do engineers join? Are there engineers' clubs?
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: The Athenæum.
LORD TAYLOR: St. Stephen's.
VISCOUNT STONEHAVEN: I do not know about the other one, but St. Stephen's is one. To underline that, when some time ago I was a student at the Royal School of Mining in South Kensington there was only one other public school boy there. The Lord President will admit that there are plenty of brains to be found in the public schools. Why are not more of them encouraged—perhaps they are, and I hope I shall be told this is the case—to go into technology and engineering? I would say that when the headmaster of Eton is an eminent scientist, science will have arrived.
6.45 p.m.
THE EARL OF HALSBURY: My Lords, the hour grows late and I will say what I have to say as briefly as I can. I agree very substantially with everything the noble and learned Viscount has said on the subject of emigration and immigration. If I add to it, he has provided me with the excuse that it is the obvious that needs emphasising in these days. Why do the Americans speak English?—because there has been a one-way westward drift of English-speaking peoples from these Islands since before the days of the Pilgrim Fathers, and it continues. To judge by the treatment the Royal Society's Report had in the popular Press you might suppose that nobody ever went to America unless he was a scientist. But we cannot expect the scientific profession to be immune from

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this tendency to drift westward. Maybe it is a sort of inbuilt Volkswanderung instinct, following the sunset. Sometimes it is for positive reasons: the emigrants seek adventure; sometimes for negative reasons; they are fed up with conditions at home. But it has been going on, and will go on.
Since these Islands are small and overcrowded, I do not know what we should be doing to-day if it had not gone on in the past. It has somewhat accelerated in the scientific field but I do not propose to deplore it or get into a panic. In the honeymoon phase of computer development, when many young electronic engineers were crossing the Atlantic in both directions, I noticed that when our young engineers came back from America, where they had been working on a development contract or on a joint enterprise, they returned with a robust faith in individual enterprise and the value of the individual, coupled with an equally robust determination to see proper anti-trust and anti-monopoly legislation accompanying a private enterprise economy. I could not help feeling that their sojourn in the United States had been of real benefit to them. As has been said often, science is international. If Nils Bohr had not gone and worked first under Max Planck and then come over here and worked under Rutherford, there would never have been a quantum theory as we know it to-day, or it would have had to be left to a later generation to discover it.
There is a small credit on the Ph.D. side which my noble friend did not mention, but I think it worth drawing attention to, because it involves the historical origins of the Ph.D. degree. The historical doctorate in science was a D.Sc., which involved the same degree of eminence in one's profession as an LL.D. or any other of the main doctorates. After the First War American students crossed the Atlantic in large numbers to get doctorates in Germany. These were not up to the standard of a D.Sc. in this country—and the Ph.D. degree was introduced here in order to tempt American students to come and do their post-graduate courses here, rather than in Germany or elsewhere. The reason for the introduction of this degree is still perpetuated in the very large number of foreign students who, having graduated at one point, come
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over to take their Ph.D. degrees here. While the debate was continuing, I cast my mind over the foreign Ph.D.'s in British employment that I could remember having seen in the last month or two. I certainly remember one Chinese, one Egyptian and one Pakistani who came over here, took their Ph.D.s, and are employed in British industry today. I no more know what will happen to them in ten years' time than I know what will happen in ten years' time to the British Ph.D.s who have gone to America. I merely say that it is part of the credit side of the flow, and ought not to be forgotten.
I have always thought it very important not to do the right thing for the wrong reason, because, if one does, one's sense of purpose will waver and fluctuate with ever-changing circumstances, irrelevant to the true purpose for which one should be acting. If you try to create opportunities for young men, to stop them emigrating to America, your purpose in doing this will waver and fluctuate with the emigration statistics. The real reason for making opportunities for young men is that it is the right thing to do anyway. We want Britain to be a land of opportunity for the young. If we bend our eyes on that, no doubt this flow Westward will to some extent staunch itself as a byproduct of having the right motive for doing what is right. I do not believe very much in the cash side of the incentive which tempts them across: I think they go for experience very largely. They also go for the adventure.
On the negative side, I think the factors which may perhaps make them fed up with this country and want to move out are, to some extent, connected more with questions of morale than with anything else. Whether you run a factory, or a battalion, or a battleship, morale is something which should be the care of the man at the top. If he is seen by everybody underneath him to be a man of high purpose, dedicated to what he is doing, and if what he is doing has general support, then morale will flow downwards from him and permeate the organisation. People at working levels want to feel that their leaders are men of purpose and resolution, who conduct their business with expedition and dispatch. Shilly-shally at any level between

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the working level and the top is corrosive of morale.
I have no doubt that the noble and learned Viscount, in his own person, has all the qualities to act as a leader and provide morale underneath him. But between him and what I might call his client laboratories there comes a very large administrative machine; and this machine sometimes creaks. Sometimes it creaks very badly. Sometimes it seems to be trying to compress the maximum of silliness into the minimum of progress. Exaggerated stories of what goes on get around, and these are corrosive of morale. I believe that my noble friend has a part to play in this personally, by acting as a sort of long-stop to see that the machine works; to go looking for trouble rather than waiting for it to break out at the trouble points where it is likely to arise.
I should like to draw attention to two matters in this Report, where I think a good diagnostician could predict that trouble would be likely to occur. The Report deals among other things with science libraries. In South Kensington there are two science libraries. One is the College library of the Imperial College, and the other is the Science Museum library. You might well ask, my Lords: why do we have two libraries on closely contiguous sites? The answer is simply that the libraries have different characteristics. The Imperial College library is a students' library on open shelves; the Science Museum library is a public reference library. The plans for the demolition of some of the Imperial College premises, and their reconstruction elsewhere, involve the demolition by the College authorities of the Science Museum library. Here you have a situation where a semi-autonomous body, financed by the University Grants Committee, proposes to demolish a public building the property of the Ministry of Education. This is precisely the sort of situation in which indecision and a failure to take any kind of action at all can only too easily arise. If my noble friend could act as a sort of long-stop in cases of this kind, and see that, whatever is decided, somebody decides something, he would be making a great contribution to the morale of the scientific community.
The other topic referred to in the Report is the Natural History Museum. This occurs in the Report under the
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general reference to the legislation now before Parliament to hive off the Natural History Museum from the British Museum, and make it a separate entity. I should have preferred to see this matter dealt with under the lengthy section of the Report dealing with biological matters, because I think your Lordships are probably under the Impression that the Natural History Museum is a museum. You go into it, you see a large stuffed elephant—a triumph of the taxidermist's art—and you wander round a few galleries with other stuffed animals in them. You go home again suitably impressed with the variety of the animal and vegetable kingdom. But that is probably only about 20 per cent. of what the Natural History Museum actually does. It is, in fact, a great Commonwealth centre of taxonomic and field research. In the taxonomic sense it does not really belong to the species "museum" at all: it should rather be treated as a research centre.
This is the sort of work it does. When an unidentified pest attacks a British crop, or a crop in India or wherever it may be, the pests are sent to the Natural History Museum for identification. Even the skin of the abominable snowman, I believe, was sent there on one occasion.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: And it was identified.
THE EARL OF HALSBURY: It was identified as some kind of bear, I believe. Does anyone wish to synthesise diamonds? He would have been unable to do so until comparatively recently, when a piece of research by the Natural History Museum showed that there were diamonds in iron-nickel meteorites. The Natural History Museum has the most representative collection of meteorites in the world. Seventy per cent. or more of all the meteorites that have ever been collected after striking the earth are represented there. They showed that there were diamonds in nickel-iron meteorites. This led to the discovery that nickel is a catalyst for the synthesis of diamonds. Whether or not this will ever be an industrial process, I do not know. But this is the sort of research that goes on at the Natural History Museum.
The custody of all its specimens is a never-ending task in an expanding field,

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and it needs new buildings progressively and regularly. Its expansion has long overtaken its building programme, and it badly needs between £1½ million and £2 million worth of new buildings. Because it is classified as a museum, it has to be accommodated within the tiny budget available for museum building, and if this proposal were to be taken seriously it would be like putting a very large man into a very small coracle. This again, I hope, is something that my noble friend will take under his wing, to see that the Natural History Museum is properly classified as a research centre with a museum attached; much as the Geological Museum next door is attached to a branch of the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research: the Geological Survey.
I do not quite know why the noble Lord, Lord Chorley, chose this debate to bring in the question of Dr. Tucker. I can only say that if anyone believes, as appeared to me to be implied, that the present Director of the Natural History Museum, Dr. Morrison-Scott, is trying to run an ex-member of the staff of the museum out of this country, then, in the words of the Duke of Wellington, "If he'll believe that, he'll believe anything".
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: Hear, hear!
THE EARL OF HALSBURY: If Dr. Morrison-Scott is to be attacked, he will find a ready defender in myself. I am only too willing to testify before any committee that may be set up that, to my knowledge, this situation was, as it were, in full hue and cry before Dr. Morrison-Scott ever became Director of the museum.
There is only one other matter, my Lords, and then I shall come to an end. The noble Lord, Lord Adrian, drew attention to a quotation from the Report establishing that there is a difference of ·2 of 1 per cent. (the nearest we can estimate it) between the percentage of the gross national product spent on science in this country and that spent in America. Now ·2 of 1 per cent. of our gross national product, as I have pointed out before in earlier debates, is itself quite a large sum. It is roughly £50 million; and I do believe again that the noble and learned Viscount has an important part to play in trying to get proposals for expenditure seen against
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this penumbra of £50 million, which represents what we might be spending if we were spending at the same rate as the Americans in proportion to our facilities for so doing.
On the television the other evening Professor Pippard drew attention to the deteriorating morale in laboratories which comes from delays in getting apparatus. Somebody discovers something new, and he immediately wants a new piece of apparatus to follow this up. It may take him six months to get his order through the Scientific Grants Committee of D.S.I.R., and then perhaps another six months to order the apparatus. A year has gone by, and half of his enthusiasm has evaporated before he can get on with the work. He pleaded over the television—and I would reinforce his plea—that there should be some sort of discretionary fund placed at the disposal of the universities, subject to audit and inspection subsequently, which would enable them to draw funds rapidly for the purpose of responding rapidly to new ideas.
"Blessed is he who gives: thrice blessed is he who gives quickly".
This is very true of response from science to the only source from which it can draw funds.
My Lords, I sometimes believe that our thinking is still faintly conditioned by the Elizabethan Poor Law. You could receive public money only if you were the deserving poor; and if it came too easily and too quickly, you rapidly ceased to be deserving. What we spend on science has got to be thought of as an investment; and there is a very big difference in the attitude of businessmen to spending in what one might call a spending department and their attitude to spending on the capital front. Everybody is in favour of cutting down expenditure in revenue departments, but when you have decided that capital expenditure is the right thing to incur, you then incur it as smoothly, as quickly and as resolutely as possible; because going through it in one smooth operation is cheaper, and the sooner you get it finished the sooner you get a return for your expenditure. That is a plea which I have made in your Lordships' House many times before, and I offer no apology for making it again.
7.4 p.m.
LORD TAYLOR: My Lords, I am what the noble Earl, Lord Halsbury, calls one of the deserving poor. Thus I must at once declare an interest, inasmuch as I receive a small grant from the noble and learned Viscount, though I do not know whether he knew it. I do not receive it personally, let me say: I receive it for my research assistant, and your Lordships will find it listed in the list of grants so kindly given out by the Medical Research Council.
My Lords, this debate has had some constitutional interest. It has not perhaps been of great constitutional importance, but it has introduced a novelty which I think was a very good novelty. It is, of course, quite usual for a noble Lord, when he has produced a Report on some ad hoc subject as chairman of a Committee, to take part in the debate subsequently in your Lordships' House; but it is unusual for a noble Lord who is a continuing adviser, and whose Report is one of a series, to speak, as the noble Lord, Lord Todd, has spoken. I think it is an excellent thing, a very good thing indeed, that we should have this liberty; and, if I may say so, I thought he supported everything my noble friend Lord Shackleton said, and perhaps, by implication, implied a little criticism of some of the things the Government have done. But he did it so nicely that I do not think anybody could take offence; and I feel that this is a very good and very satisfactory thing to have happened.
I always enjoy the noble and learned Viscount, but I never quite know whether he expects us to take absolutely seriously some of the things he says—for he sometimes says some very surprising things. He referred, for example, to "the increasingly neurotic and humourless Britain". I think that there he was speaking metaphorically and as a politician and not as a scientist, because I do not think there is any real evidence that the incidence of neurosis has been increasing over the years. If there is, I shall be delighted to have it. It is a very difficult thing to study technically, and I have spent some of his money studying it, but we have not found any evidence of an increase of neurosis over the years.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, I think the noble Lord has overlooked that what I said was, "of which all of
us
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somehow unaccountably form part". Of course, if we are all part of it, we shall never be able to see it in others.
LORD TAYLOR: The next thing he mentioned was the national neurosis of pessimism. I can understand the noble Viscount, as a politician, feeling a little pessimistic at times, but we are not like that: we are on the up and up. I do not think he should feel that we are running down British science. We are thinking that, in spite of everything, British science has not done so badly, and that it would be quite wrong to denigrate what has been achieved. If we criticise, it is not that we are running down all the good things that have been done, but simply that we are saying there is plenty more to be done.
The noble Viscount, Lord Stonehaven, said, very rightly, that the gestation period of a suggestion in your Lordships' House is usually ten years. I well recollect making a number of suggestions on November 9, 1959, when the noble and learned Viscount made his first speech as Minister for Science. That is only three years, so I ought not to be disappointed: I have another seven years to wait before I get the things that I asked for then. But I should have liked to have a little more; and I feel that perhaps he may find that some suggestions were not so silly after all.
Now, looking at the picture which has been displayed before your Lordships this evening, there are two real themes running through the debate. They are: what is the best machinery for getting research going on a bigger scale? Is it to be within the universities, or in special research institutes financed by research councils, or in other ways? This was really the theme which the noble Lord, Lord Adrian, was putting before us, when saying quite clearly (and, as I know, correctly) that the Russians have solved this particular problem by building an enormous number of research institutes and doing less within the universities. We have, of course, tried to do a great deal within the universities, and we have done a great deal within the universities. But we should be doing a great deal more still; and one wonders why we are not. It has been part of my job over the past year to try to find out why we were not doing more. May I give an instance of the sort of thing that happens? The

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Medical Research Council, quite rightly, establishes in a university a unit for research in some particular subject. After a while, the Medical Research Council decides that this has become an established discipline, and would like it to be taken over by a university; and arrangements are made accordingly. But there is no way by which the University Grants Committee can earmark a portion of money so that it definitely takes over the research unit as the M.R.C. drops out.
I have overstated the position a little. It is not quite so crude as that. But it is the sort of difficulty occurring all the time. It is impossible for the University Grants Committee to guarantee that money it gives for a particular purpose, or with a particular purpose in mind, will be used for that particular purpose. Indeed, it is not quite clear that it should guarantee for that purpose; yet the need is there. I have thought about this in connection with psychiatry, which is a very much under-financed section of research.
I asked the noble and learned Viscount, not long ago, how much we spent on psychiatry in this country, and he gave me the M.R.C. figures—these are not the total of course. But he is spending £247,000 a year on psychiatric research, compared with £63,000 five years ago. This is not a bad advance. But we are spending over £100 million straight out of the National Health Service on psychiatric beds. I have tried to find out from prudent industrialists what they spend on research in relation to their turnover. This figure is not easy to ascertain: it varies from industry to industry, and it includes development research and pure research. But in the nearest analogy to psychiatry, which I suppose is chemistry and electronics, the proportion is something about 5 per cent., of which 1 per cent. is pure research and 4 per cent. applied research and development research.
Some of your Lordships may feel that this is an unfair figure to take. But at that rate we may be thought, if we were prudent people, to be expending 5 per cent. of our national turnover on mental illness on research, but we are, in fact, spending, instead of £5 million, something between a quarter and a half million pounds, and that is making a generous
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allowance for university expenditure. I should, of course, like to see us spending more, but the difficulty is, how to inject it in the system. I have concluded that the easiest way to do so is to create double professorships—to have two professorships in each department where research is very actively required and where a lot of teaching is needed, particularly in clinical and medical teaching. In a double professorship one would be primarily a clinical teacher and the other primarily a researcher. This works very well indeed in medicine in University College where they have that system. They have Professor Rosenheim as Professor of Medicine and Professor Dent as a research professor who is called the Professor of Human Metabolism. This is the only way to get psychiatric research going quickly—to have these two Chairs in our universities.
A professor at the present time is in a very difficult position when it comes to undertaking research, because he has so much work to do, particularly if he is a clinical medical professor, when he must devote seven-elevenths of his time to clinical work in order to qualify for a merit award. This is very strange, but it is so. A professor now spends a great deal of his time writing applications for grants from charitable bodies and vetting other people's applications for grants. There is very little time left for the clinical professor of psychiatry, for example, to do research. So the research does not get done.
The creation of these Chairs will be chicken-feed in terms of the list of things the noble and learned Viscount gave us—those atomic developments. I reckon that we could get all the psychiatric research we need in this country inside the universities for £1 million a year over and above what we are spending now. I was very glad indeed when the noble Lord, Lord Todd, emphasised the excessive share that the atomic physicists have got out of the kitty and the ease with which they have obtained this large expenditure—and we all know why. It is not right or wise that we cannot spend more of our money on biological sciences, oceanography and the like, but certainly on medical biological science, of which I think psychiatry is probably the most important and is developing at a remarkable speed at the moment.

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Before I make any criticism of the Medical Research Council, I must say what a good job they have done and are doing. They are a very good organisation—I have said this before and I will say it again. However, they have a theory which I believe is attractive to the Trend Committee. I know that the Trend Committee is engaged on some subject, but that should not make it sub judice as far as we are concerned; we should certainly say what we think about the organisation of science within the Government, for the benefit of the Trend Committee. In that regard I am sure the noble and learned Viscount will feel the same way. The theory that the M.R.C. frequently adumbrate is that you should wait until a really good person comes along and then back him to the full. If they decide to back him they give him lots of freedom and do not worry about requesting frequent reports. As a result, they back a very high proportion of winners. But a great many people do not get backed and a good many potential winners are lost.
I used to sit on a body which was called the Mental Health Research Fund Research Committee. Our job was to dish out in grants for mental health research such money as we could collect from the public. Over the years, the situation grew worse until we were able—we were a group of psychiatrists, biochemists and so on, meeting round a table—to approve grants to only one in four. We turned down three out of four grants because of the lack of cash. This amply disproves the contention made by the M.R.C. that there are not the people available. In half the cases this argument advanced by Government grant organisations is not true. It is an excuse for not being up and doing.
The M.R.C. has in the past wound up some units. They have looked around to see whether they could find a director and if they have not found the person who suits them they have shut the unit up. If industry did that, it would come to a standstill. In industry one advertises and sees what is available. The people are available. I had a letter from a friend of mine which said:
"We recently advertised in Nature for an organic or bio-chemist interested in working on a Fellowship in the chemistry of mental illness."
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This is from a man who is a very good medical bio-chemist, working on schizophrenia. He continues:
"We were surprised to get no less than fourteen replies of which seven were of good calibre and included four Ph.Ds."
This would seem to be substantial evidence in favour of there being no shortage of good men wanting to make a career in psychiatric research, and a shortage of good posts for them to do so.
This drift to America—the "brain drain"—and all the things we have heard are true. It is a good thing to go to America when you are a young Ph.D. and work there. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Todd, that it is a pity that more do not go to Germany and France, but in so many subjects the best place to go is America. Certainly in the majority of branches of medicine, it is the best bet. I can think of one or two places in Scandinavia where these men might want to go, too, but going to America is naturally an attractive thing. I am not so concerned with the fellow who has just got his Ph.D. or who is doing his first three years' research. It is at the end of the first three years of research that the difficulty arises, when there are no posts here. It is all right where there are grants for basic research, and the M.R.C. and the D.S.I.R. are generous in grants for initial research, but for those making their careers in biological or psychiatric research there is great difficulty and, except for a relatively few posts in the universities, there are not the research posts available, unless a man is especially fortunate and able to establish something like an M.R.C. unit.
If people go to America and do research under good conditions, that does not seem to be a bad thing at all. In fact, the noble and learned Viscount stressed this very point before, when on a different tack. To-day, he is saying that these people are wrong and unpatriotic to go. Then, he said that it did not really damage the sum total of human knowledge, if they went and did their work there. I agree with that. But what is serious is that we are thereby losing an increasing number of people whom we shall be urgently needing if we are to go on with teaching, as we have to do in the years immediately ahead, without a serious reduction in university research. The noble Lord, Lord Adrian,

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referred to this point and I entirely agree with him. When we have to face those of the "bulge" in the birth rate coming up to university level, we are going to have a tremendous demand for university teaching—and this carries with it a grave danger to university research—unless we make very substantial arrangements for keeping these people here. It is that loss which I think is a serious one, and that is why we ought to be more careful about it.
I want to say one thing about the question of Research Councils. In their Report, the Royal Society talk about the biological research council and there was reference to the Slater Sub-Committee (I think it was) which had to report to the noble Lord, Lord Todd, on the question of a research council on natural resources. There has been talk about a research council on social studies, and a few days ago I was advocating a psychiatric research council. The noble Lord, Lord Adrian, has shrewdly said that we shall not multiply research by multiplying research councils. That is true, if they are advisory councils. But if they are councils handing out money and establishing units, professorships and institutes, then we shall multiply research by multiplying councils. That is why M.R.C. and A.R.C. have been so good. I would welcome the creation of a whole series of research councils under the Minister for Science. The noble and learned Viscount should be more tolerant, more open-minded and ready to think these problems through.
I can think of fifty arguments which he can advance against me—and they would still be wrong. The manifest argument is that there would be overlapping. Of course there would be overlapping, and there is overlapping now. The next argument is that it would be uneconomical. Of course it would be uneconomical, but the only way to get more research is to spend more money, and inevitably there is going to be some waste; we cannot avoid waste if we are going to get plenty of research going, because we cannot tell what is going to come out of a piece of research.
The noble and learned Viscount referred to chromosomes; that chromosome research was made possible by a chance discovery in America. A couple of men
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who were working on leukæmia, using a substance called "phyto-aglutinin" to clump together the red cells in the blood to see the leukæmic white cells, found, to their amazement, that normal white cells were showing cell division and that it was thereby perfectly possible to see normal chromosomes without making tissue cultures in a drop of blood. The result has been an absolute flood of discoveries about abnormal human brains and general metabolism associated with chromosome abnormalities. All this was found quite by chance three years ago. So one cannot predict what we can find by research. And by increasing the volume of research intelligently, we can get more good results. Of course, I do not urge for one moment that we should spend £300 million a year, which is equivalent to what the Americans spend, on medical research. Reducing it by the factor of eight, which the noble and learned Viscount favours, to bring it to the proportion of our gross national production, that would mean that we should be spending £40 million a year on medical research. But I do not advocate even £40 million. I just think that we are spending about half what we ought to be spending, and in psychiatry we are spending one-quarter of what we should be profitably spending and which we must spend if we are going to stop these lads from going away when we shall need them.
There is plenty to be done and I hope that the noble and learned Viscount, for whatever period remains to him in his present post, will continue to apply himself vigorously, as he has always done, but also in a broad-minded way, to the possibility that there may be other ways of doing things than those which are being pursued now. I have made a few suggestions as to how it might be done. I think that we should all like to say how very pleased we are that the noble and learned Viscount initiated this debate, in his vigorous and lively way, and how much we have appreciated the contributions of all the noble Lords who have spoken. My noble friend Lord Shackleton and I have been delighted with the way this debate has gone, and we are very pleased indeed at the work of the Advisory Council, although I think that we should both like to see the production of its Report a little improved

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physically, as a technical production. We hope that the Council may be geared increasingly into the machinery of civil Government in future.
7.30 p.m.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, I do not want to spend a great deal of time replying to what has been a very interesting debate. I do not believe that I could do so, because I have now managed to get my notes into an indescribable muddle, as I was trying a new system of organisation. Attempting to be broad-minded and tolerant, as I was invited to be by my noble friend, I put my notes in the order of subject rather than of speaker, and it has not proved at all a success.
First of all, I should like to say how glad I was that the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, welcomed the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Todd, from the Cross-Benches. Of course, it exercised my mind a good deal, as Leader of the House, as to how we could make best use of the noble Lord, Lord Todd, now that we are lucky enough to have him among us, because there are quite a number of serious rules about people who hold official positions which might have been thought to inhibit him. I thought I would say to the House that I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, that, if this is an innovation, it is an excellent one. The noble Lord is not spending Government money directly and does not come within the so-called Addison rules; he is not, as some of your Lordships are, in the permanent service of the Crown, and therefore he is not inhibited by that set of rules. I think we gain enormously by having the noble Lord here. Incidentally, if he had not been a Peer he would not have been disqualified by his official position from standing for the House of Commons. So I feel we are not even encroaching upon the prerogatives of another place.
On the general lines which the debate has taken, I should like to say one or two things about the speeches which have been made. The noble Lord, Lord Taylor, is, of course, an enthusiast, and so, I hope am I, but I would ask him to believe me that over the last six years in which I have been responsible for civil science, for three of which I have been responsible as Minister for Science, I have really
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thought through this subject carefully, and I have had some of the best tutors it is possible to have in this field, both among those who hold official positions in the Government heirarchy of science and those who gave me advice from outside.
I felt originally that I should not have a number of inquiries into Government organisation and into science, because I considered it would inhibit growth. I believe it was right to take that view. But round about the time when the Slater Committee and the Trend Committee came to be appointed—and they were appointed either with my co-operation or at my initiative in each case—I came to the conclusion that growth had reached the point at which, if an improvement of a fairly substantial nature in organisation were not made, it would become distorted. Although the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, was perfectly right in thinking that he should not be restrained in any way by the pendency of the Reports of those Committees from expressing his own opinion, I think I should be, up to a point, restrained from expressing mine until those Committees have reported.
The method of organising research when it is financed by Government funds—which, after all, is the business I am in—is not as easy as it looks. I would say to the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, that not very much advance is to be made by comparing it to a percentage turnover in a business. The Medical Research Council, which, as the noble Lord rightly says, helps to finance his excellent activities, knows its job about that. It is almost impossible to administer research unless you lay down that a desirable project not only must be one which seeks to meet a human need, but also must be one which is to be worked on by a first-class mind and in respect of which there is a promising lead. If you do not stick to that as a principle, you lose any kind of ability to control the subject. This is what the Research Councils are about.
I would absolutely agree with the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, that of course you do not want the Medical Research Council, for example, or the D.S.I.R., to be the sole repository of all wisdom in this respect. This is why I sometimes feel a little irritated when professors who

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want money for research complain that they have to go to all these charitable foundations. The truth is, as was pointed out in a most valuable and well-written article in the Medical Research Council's Report this year, that the multiplication of sources of research is the guarantee of the independence of science from Government monopoly, even when the Government monopoly is as well run as I believe medical research is run by the Medical Research Council.
LORD TAYLOR: My Lords, may I take up the noble Viscount on that important point? What he said is absolutely true with regard to grants for junior posts up to, say, the first three years of a research worker's life. The difficulty arises with regard to the foundations when it becomes a question of founding readerships or professorships: because, in order to found a readership or a professorship, it is necessary to hand to a university £100,000 or more as a permanent endowment. This is just not available from foundations and can come only from Government sources.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: I was coming to that point, which I think arises in a slightly different form particularly connection with the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Adrian. The only point I wanted to make is that although it may, or may not, be true that these various Committees when they emerge to the light of day yield one or more new research councils (I do not want to prejudge the issue), the rather optimistic picture which the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, was pointing to of a range of research councils all doling out public monies for research is not one which can hope to have any substantial support, whatever these Committees report, because the great difficulty in the work which I have to do is really to reduce to some kind of coherence a subject of almost infinite variety. I am at the same time responsible for scientists looking after the red deer in the Island of Rhum and the proton synchrotron at Harwell. One has to reduce this to some kind of coherence without over-simplifying it. This is the problem with which we are faced.
This brings me to the next point with which I want to deal, and that is the
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adequacy of the total sum which the Government are putting in support of research as a whole, and the organisation of research in the way in which the noble Lord, Lord Adrian, raised it in his interesting speech. These questions are, I think, extremely closely related to one another. I believe the future progress of the subject depends, much more than either the universities or the scientists yet understand, upon the outcome of the inquiries undertaken. The noble Lord, Lord Taylor, was very near the truth when he referred to the particular difficulties which arose in continuing research grants which had been initiated by the Medical Research Council and then had appeared to become part of the established order of the university. I do not think that this is at all a simple problem, and it was largely because of this problem that I not only encouraged. but initiated, the general inquiry which is going on.
But I think the actual difficulties of the situation must be faced. The universities, as the noble Lord, Lord Adrian, pointed out, prize above all things, and must continue to prize above all things, their independence of Government. None the less, they must, in practice, raise the great bulk of their finance from Government. Of course, it would be simple in a way to hand over the whole function of giving research grants to universities to the Office of the Minister for Science, to administer through the Research Council. in fact, when I first took office as Lord President in 1957 I came to the conclusion, I think rightly, that the key of the whole matter lay with the universities and it is largely for that reason that the four Research Councils have multiplied their grants to universities by something like a factor of three during those years. I think that has transformed the whole character of new research in universities in the period of six years.
However, it only creates in an acute form the problem to which the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, referred, because I absolutely agree with the noble Lord, Lord Adrian, that a university is not simply a teaching machine it is not a teaching factory at all. Indeed, if it sought to become a teaching factory it would cease to be a university. This fact is very difficult to get across at a time when everybody knows, and no one

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better than myself, that one of the urgent needs of the time is to increase the undergraduate throughput of our university machine to a point at which it reaches something like 200,000 places at any one given time, which is a figure, I must say, in advance of any current Government plan or any current U.G.C. plan.
That it is going on, it is important for people to realise, is precisely because the university is not simply a teaching machine or teaching factory. The research which goes on with the increased teaching staff will have to increase, if not pari passu, at any rate something like in proportion. If universities looked to the research councils for their money they would become appendages of my office, and they would lose the thing they prize above all other things. If, on the other hand, they continue to receive, as they must, their money through the University Grants Committee, as I think the noble Lord, Lord Adrian, pointed out, they will not, under the present régime, get an earmarked grant at all. There is absolutely no guarantee that, if you increase the quinquennial grant, it will go on research rather than teaching, or that it will go on science rather than Greek lexicons. The matter rests with the University Grants Committee and with the university under the Committee.
Of course, this problem arises in relation to research sometimes in quite humdrum and domestic ways. You find scientists asking for technicians in order to absolve them from much of the drudgery of the laboratory, or asking for that kind of glass or crockery which any modern laboratory should have. They do not get earmarked grants, and they cannot. They do not come under the research councils for this purpose unless the work happens to be part of the work which the research councils are supporting. It was precisely for this kind of reason that I mentioned the Trend inquiry and the Slater inquiry, but the Robbins inquiry is concerned with this field, too. We have to wait until these three bodies bring something out of their studies before we are actually clear which way we are going.
In the meantime, I should like to correct a small point which the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, made. He said, and literally with truth, that the Government proportion of the money spent on
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research and development had declined over the last six years. By itself this is misleading. The reason why it appears to have declined is that the defence expenditure on research and development has declined. I have lost the figures in a morass of papers, but I could have given him figures which would have shown that on the civil side the Government proportion has increased. The other factor which I think he ought to accept is that one of the most important things—noble Lords have said remarkably little about it, but that is because it is a wide and difficult subject to handle compendiously—is that we have to face that we want industry to spend much more on research than it does. If it spent as much on research as I should like it to do, and increased as rapidly in the traditional industries as I should like it to increase, in research and in the employment of qualified staff, I daresay the Government percentage would go down. Therefore, it is not necessarily a bad thing that the Government percentage goes down. Both those factors need to be taken into account. There is one other thing on the general side that I should like to say about the emigration of scientists. I thought that I detected in the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, a feeling that I was somehow criticising him. This is not so. Believe me, I have lived in this particular village for about six years, and I am quite certain that I was right to protest at what was rather a spirit of niggling and carping which has been abroad. I think we are entitled to expect from our leading scientists and academicians, even when they feel irritated with the Government (and I recognise that they are well entitled to do that from time to time), a slightly more constructive attitude than they sometimes show.
I am totally unpenitent about my criticisms of the American high school system. I was subjected to some criticism about that from the noble Lord, Lord Chorley, of all people, who I should have thought would have been the first to criticise that great private enterprise country. None the less, what I said was not a matter of opinion, but a matter of demonstrable fact. It may be true—I think it is—that we are gradually developing a university pattern which is not growing fast enough for our school

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pattern. But what is manifestly and demonstrably true is that over decades, and possibly longer, the Americans have developed a university and research pattern for which their school pattern is utterly inadequate to cope, both in quality and quantity. Although, of course, over the continent you can find examples of extremely good schools, what you cannot find over the whole is an adequate supply of scientists to supply the Americans' needs.
LORD TAYLOR: My Lords, with all due respect to the noble Viscount, surely this is a little unfair to the Americans. Do they not, in fact, do what we would call sixth form work very largely in their universities? Is it not also a fact that their output of scientists, and their spending of money is vastly greater than we have been able to achieve, even allowing for their greater population?
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: I do not think the noble Lord is quite following the point. The point is that they are driven by their own needs to recruit from other countries. This means, as a mere matter of logic and mathematics, that they are not themselves producing the scientists they need. I know that it is very easy to say that the Americans have a higher dose of everything of original sin, or original stupidity, and simply have not the brains to do it. But this is simply not true. The fact is that they have a bad school system and a good university system, and it is high time they did something about it.
In the meantime, we have to live with the Americans on the other side of the Atlantic, to which many of our most able people (including most of my own ancestors) have gone over the last 350 years, and they will continue to recruit our excellent scientists for a long time to come. In a way that is not a
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matter to get worried about: it is at least a compliment to our scientists. But there is no very easy counterblast to it. The only doctrine which can be satisfactorily applied is that of the noble Earl, Lord Halsbury—namely, that we should do what it is necessary for us to do for the right reasons to improve our science all the way through; to improve our universities in size and pattern all the way through; and, still more important even than that, to make the whole quality of our life in this country so attractive that neither scientists nor anybody else, unless they are offered an extremely attractive opportunity elsewhere, will ever want to leave us again.
It is getting late, and I should like to join with those who have thanked noble Lords on all sides of the House for their extremely valuable contributions. I was particularly struck with the contributions of my two noble friends behind me, both of whom struck an important note about the status of scientists and engineers and, indeed, about their morale. The last phrases in my original opening speech were designed to cover the same point.
These men have perhaps played a less important part in this debate than the pure scientists, but I wish to emphasise what has been said more than once; that if we have a need in this country it is to raise the status of applied science and not allow the false snobbery of the pure to deprive us of the chance of doubling our standard of life and our gross national product. I am much obliged to noble Lords for this debate.
On Question, Resolution agreed to.

SUNDERLAND CORPORATION BILL [H.L.]
Reported, with Amendments.
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