Sitting of 14 February 1963

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
PRIVATE BUSINESS
  SCOTTISH PULP MILL (WATER SUPPLY) ORDER CONFIRMATION
  Bill to confirm a Provisional Order under the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act 1936, relating to the Scottish Pulp Mill (Water Supply), presented by Mr. Noble (under Section 7 of the Act); and ordered to be considered upon Wednesday next and to be printed, [Bill 69.]
  MALTA
  Address for Return containing Reports on Bailey (Malta) Ltd. by Mr. G. B. Muirie and Sir Richard Yeabsley, with an explanatory introduction.—[Mr. Fisher.]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  CENTRAL AFRICA

    Federation (White Paper)
    Mr. Healeyasked the First Secretary of State what decisions he has reached concerning the publication of pledges made by Her Majesty's Ministers in 1953 on the conditions under which the Federation of Central Africa might be dissolved.
    The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Mr. Iain Macleod): I have been asked to reply.
    I would refer the hon. Gentleman to the White Paper (Cmnd. 1948) published yesterday.
    Mr. Healey: While welcoming publication of the White Paper, may I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman would agree with the judgment of The Times
    1456
    this morning that the Government's argument fails lamentably and that the pledges cannot be denied? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that what concerns us on this side of the House is not so much that Her Majesty's Government should now have broken pledges made in secret by earlier Ministers which contradict constitutions presented to Parliament and ratified, but that these pledges should ever have been made by Her Majesty's Ministers, limiting as they do powers which are vested in this House, and that they should have concealed these pledges from the British Parliament and people until they were revealed in another place 10 years later? Does the right hon. Gentleman really think that this sort of conduct is compatible with the responsibilities of Her Majesty's Ministers?
    Mr. Macleod: I do not accept that. I have no direct knowledge of these matters, but I have studied them very carefully indeed. I do not accept what is said in The Times this morning. We always quote The Times when it happens to agree with our own point of view. I entirely disagree with it. I think that the White Paper which has been published makes entirely clear that the discussions related, and only related, to the review and what amendments might be brought about through the review, and it has never been suggested at any time, either to Parliament to anywhere else, in the whole of these 10 years, that a pledge of the nature which the hon. Gentleman suggests existed.
    Mr. Healey: But is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the three ex-Ministers concerned all stated in another place in a recent debate that they had made pledges with the same significance as was given to them by Sir Roy Welensky? How can the right hon. Gentleman possibly maintain the position he has just put to the House in view of the statements made in another place by the noble Lords, Lord Chandos, Lord Boyd and Lord Swinton?
    Mr. Macleod: There is to be a debate in a few days in another place in which my noble Friends Lord Chandos and Lord Swinton will speak. I cannot anticipate what they will say.
    Hon. Members: They have already said it.
    Mr. Macleod: That was before the publication of the White Paper. I am certain that at no time has any pledge been given, nor could one have been given, that would limit the freedom of this House.

    University (Finance)
    Mr. A. Fenner Brockwayasked the First Secretary of State on what conditions he contributed to the finances of the Central African University.
    Mr. Iain Macleod: I have been asked to reply.
    Her Majesty's Government undertook to provide Colonial Development and Welfare grants to the University College of Rhodesia and Nyasaland subject to the usual conditions attached to the issue of such grants for higher education purposes. These include a requirement that Her Majesty's Government should be satisfied about the constitution and autonomy of the administering body.
    It was also a condition that the full recurrent costs should be guaranteed from other sources.
    Mr. Brockway: Did these conditions include any safeguard concerning British citizens who are on the staff of this university? Is he aware that Dr. Terence Ranger, a member of the staff of this University, was deported because he engaged in inter-racial activities when a lecturer at an inter-racial college? Under conditions like that, ought not our Government to stand for the elementary liberties of British citizens in a university to which the Government contribute?
    Mr. Macleod: Although I understand the feelings of the hon. Member, that supplementary question is quite a distance away from his main Question. The position is that the constitution of the college establishes—as he knows; he has been there, as I have—that the college shall be multi-racial. That is written into the Charter of 11th February, 1955. The hon. Gentleman's supplementary question surely goes outside the provision of C.D. and W. grants to this university.

    First Secretary of State's Visit
    Mr. D. Footasked the First Secretary of State whether, during his visit to Central Africa, he discussed with the
    1458
    Federal authorities the alteration of the Constitution in regard to responsibility for immigration.
    Mr. Iain Macleod: I have been asked to reply.
    No, Sir.
    Mr. Foot: Did the First Secretary at no time discuss with the Federal authorities the operation of the immigration laws, the king series of arbitrary expulsions from the Federation of persons with whose political views the Federal Government did not agree? Did he at no time make any representations about the widespread indignation felt among all parties in this country about the treatment of Dr. Terence Ranger?
    Mr. Macleod: My right hon. Friend was concerned with matters of broad policy and discussions with the Government concerned. On the immediate question of Dr. Ranger, there is some difficulty in my commenting, partly because these matters are within the Federal Government's immigration powers but more particularly because Dr. Ranger has entered an appeal, judgment on which has been reserved until 20th February.
    Mrs. Castle: But did not the right hon. Gentleman make any representations about the treatment of Dr. Ranger before this difficulty arose? Will not he undertake to do so when the opportunity arises?
    Mr. Macleod: I will convey the views of hon. Members in this matter to the First Secretary, but I must remind the House of the point that I made a moment ago. Because of what I have said, I do not think that it would be right, in any case, to comment about the matter.
    Mr. Foot: But will the right hon Gentleman and the Government consider making representations to the Federal authorities, through the High Commissioner in Salisbury?
    Mr. Macleod: I take it that the hon. and learned Member means after 20th February?
    Mr. Foot: Yes.
    Mr. Macleod: If the hon. and learned Member wishes, I will put the point to my right hon. Friend.

  NORTHERN RHODESIA

    Constitution
    Mr. Healeyasked the First Secretary of State if he will now convene a conference to revise the Constitution of Northern Rhodesia.
    Mr. Goodhewasked the First Secretary of State what plans he has for a new Constitution for Northern Rhodesia.
    Mr. Iain Macleod: I have been asked to reply.
    When my right hon. Friend was in Lusaka last month a joint delegation of the United National Independence Party and the African National Congress presented proposals for a new constitution, but he entered into no commitments at this stage.
    Mr. Healey: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that yesterday in Central Africa the Northern Rhodesian Parliament voted by an overwhelming majority to secede from the Federation, or expressed the desire to secede from the Federation, and that on the same day the Prime Minister of Southern Rhodesia said that it would be wise to make a clean break with the Federation now? As all the Territorial Governments now wish to end the Federation, and any hope of economic co-operation between the constituent parts depends on recognising the end of the Federation, can the right hon. Gentleman tell us why his right hon. Friend is still delaying and dilly-dallying on this matter? Is there some other secret pledge yet to be published if we take some other step?
    Mr. Macleod: That is a very unworthy comment. Of course I am aware of what has been happening in Central Africa recently. The general election to which the hon. Gentleman refers was, after all, completed only on 10th December, 1962, and whatever the shortcomings of that Constitution for which I have been a good deal criticised, it has at least produced a Government which reflects the majority held in the Legislature by the African parties. I think that what is in the minds of people at the moment is really the future association of the territories. That is the present concern, and not perhaps the question of immediate constitutional change.
    Mr. Goodhew: Does not my right hon. Friend agree that if there is to be any
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    stability in this type of territory, any new constitution should at least be given some time to prove that it works properly? Does not he also agree that the most urgent thing to do at the moment is to call a conference in Africa, and not in Lancaster House, in order to discuss the whole future of the Federation?
    Mr. Macleod: I agree with the general tenor of my hon. Friend's supplementary question, but the question of the venue of such a conference, if one is called, is a matter for my right hon. Friend the First Secretary.
    Mr. Healey: With his great experience of these matters, will not the right hon. Gentleman accept the fact that any hope of a fruitful association between these three territories—as many hon. Members on both sides of the House believe—is extremely important, and that it will depend on accepting that the Federation was a mistake, allowing it to be dissolved, and allowing the constituent Governments to get into contact with each other from a clean sheet?
    Mr. Macleod: I cannot altogether accept that suggestion, although I accept parts of it. Everybody knows the position in relation to the Federation at present, but I think that I am right in saying that in most people's minds the immediate question is not so much one of constitutional advance for any given territory—although that will come—but the future of the association, and what form it should take, between these territories.

  CYPRUS

    Municipal Councils (Composition)
    Mr. Wallasked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations whether the Government of the Republic of Cyprus have yet made an approach to him about the constitutional dispute over the composition of municipal councils.
    The Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations and Secretary of State for the Colonies (Mr. Duncan Sandys): No, Sir.
    Mr. Wall: Does not my right hon. Friend agree that the question of the division of the Civil Service and the major municipalities was settled when the new independence Constitution was

    1461
    brought in? Is not the setting up of these improvement boards a contravention of the Constitution?
    Mr. Sandys: I do not want to enter into the controversy myself, but we very much hope that the two communities will manage to settle this matter between themselves.

  TRINIDAD

    Expanded Defence Programme (Finance)
    Mr. Chapmanasked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations why, when the Trinidad Government had on several occasions in 1961 refused to make the requested financial contribution to an expanded defence programme proposed by the then Federal Government, he has nevertheless made acceptance of this obligation a condition of financial aid to Trinidad; whether he is aware of the resentment this has caused in Trinidad, particularly as the Trinidad Government have not been informed of the make-up of the sum demanded; and whether he will now cancel this alleged debt.
    The Under-Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations (Mr. John Tilney): I am sorry that the hon. Gentleman is misinformed. Right up till July, 1962, the official position of the Government of Trinidad and Tobago was understood by the other Governments concerned to be, in the words of the Trinidad Government, that they were "not disposed to object" to meeting their share of the Federal Government's expanded defence programme. The condition in our Aide-Mémoire of 30th October, 1962, refers solely to this share which Trinidad and Tobago agreed in December, 1960, and rejected in July, 1962.
    I cannot accept that the Trinidad Government have not been informed of the make-up of the sum in question, since this was discussed with them several times, most recently at the Common Services Conference in July, 1962.
    The answer to the third part of the Question is "No, Sir".
    Mr. Chapman: Has the hon. Member read the new White Paper from the Trinidad Government, in which the
    1462
    reasons are given, namely, that the Trinidad Government understand that at a meeting held on 10th December, 1960, with the then Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies present, an agreement was reached under which the British Government would pay roughly one-third of this expanded defence programme, and that the Trinidad Government refused to continue with its payment when they discovered that the British Government refused to honour that agreement? Is this statement in the Trinidad White Paper—a statement which reflects on the British Government—true or untrue? It is important for the good name of Britain that a clear answer should be given on this matter.
    Mr. Tilney: The British Government never agreed to pay that sum, especially when there were funds available from Federal sources. We merely undertook to consider it. Of course I have read the White Paper, and it is made clear in it that Trinidad and Tobago, in February, 1961, would not agree to contribute one cent more to any expansion programme. What we are discussing is the contribution which, as the same White Paper says, the Government of Trinidad and Tobago had already agreed to make.

    Economic Aid
    Mr. Chapmanasked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations whether, since the British proposals for financial settlement with Trinidad have been rejected as offering an unsuitable form of economic aid, he will reopen negotiations on the basis of Trinidad's suggestion of an Exchequer loan of £5 million, as set out in the letter from Dr. Williams on 5th November, 1962.
    Mr. Tilney: No, Sir. This suggestion was taken fully into consideration before we made our offer to the Government of Trinidad and Tobago. I think that the offer was reasonable; it compares favourably with those made to other countries and accepted by them. It did not constitute an "unsuitable form" of economic aid.
    Mr. Chapman: Has the hon. Member read the letter dated 5th November last year, from the Prime Minister of Trinidad to the British Prime Minister, in which he said that he had asked for this kind of loan as long ago as the previous January, and had never had a formal reply?

    1463
    Is this really the way to uphold our position as head of the Commonwealth? Secondly, would it not be a good thing, now that the whole thing has broken down on the basis of the British Government's offer, to try to reopen negotiations on the kind of offer Trinidad would prefer, after which it might be possible to settle all the outstanding difficulties?
    Mr. Tilney: I certainly have read the White Paper. The request from the Prime Minister of Trinidad and Tobago was received in March. In April, the British Government proposed a discussion on economic matters which took place in June. This was considered an answer to the request. But I entirely agree with the hon. Gentleman that it is very difficult to deal with this matter by Question and Answer. It is very much better to deal with these rather complicated matters through the usual diplomatic channels and if there is a misunderstanding let us clear it up.
    Mr. Healey: While recognising that the offer to Trinidad is broadly in scale with offers made to other countries, may I ask the hon. Gentleman whether he would accept that it is the feeling of many hon. Members on both sides of the House that too often these offers to countries on independence are almost entirely taken up in liquidating the commitments made by previous Colonial Governments before independence, particularly with regard to the compensation of civil servants and such matters? Would not he use his influence with the Treasury to try to ensure in future that more generous treatment is handed out to these new States?
    Mr. Tilney: I only wish that the public purse was fuller. But it must be remembered that the national income of Trinidad and Tobago is many times that of other Commonwealth countries like Tanganyika. I wish that we had more money to give to all our friends in the Commonwealth.

  EDUCATION

    Maintenance Allowances
    Mr. Sydney Irvingasked the Minister of Education what steps he proposes to take to secure greater uniformity between the maintenance allowances paid
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    by different local education authorities and, in particular, to raise the level of the allowances paid by those authorities now making the smallest grants.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Education (Mr. Christopher Chataway): I would refer the hon. Member to my right hon. Friend's reply to the hon. Member for Bishop Auckland (Mr. Boyden) on 31st July last.
    Mr. Irving: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there are still great variations among local education authorities in this matter, and that in this democratic age most people think it inequitable and indefensible that there should be variations in these allowances and that educational opportunity should depend upon where the student lives?
    Mr. Chataway: As my hon. Friend made clear on that occasion, this is a matter essentially for the discretion of local authorities. We have ascertained that no local education authority pays maintenance allowances below the rate recommended in Circular 327.
    Mrs. White: Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that there are certain classes of students—for instance, students of art—who are particularly badly treated in certain local authority areas? Will he make a special study of this group?
    Mr. Chataway: I will pay attention to what the hon. Lady has said.
    Dr. king: Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that the Weaver Working Party Report and the Ministerial action that followed has resulted in stepping up the maintenance allowances, which represents a move towards greater uniformity? Is he aware that there is still a great need, and will he consider setting up the Weaver Working Party again?
    Mr. Chataway: I am sure that my right hon. Friend will consider that suggestion. I am, of course, aware that the majority of local education authorities do pay scales which are either similar to or above the rates recommended in the Weaver Report.

    Teachers
    Mr. Boydenasked the Minister of Education (1) if he will undertake a special campaign to recruit for the teaching profession men and women

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    over 21 years of age at present employed in industry and commerce;
    (2) if he will devise an emergency training programme for mature entrants to the teaching profession which would enable them to be paid salaries in training comparable with their former salaries in industry, and to take, subject to safeguarding standards, shortened courses in special training colleges.
    Mr. Chataway: In the general drive to recruit more teachers considerable emphasis has been laid on the recruitment of older people to training; eight day colleges have been set up to cater specially for mature students and I am sending the hon. Member a copy of a recent pamphlet on late entrants issued by the Department and aimed at recruits from industries and commerce as well as at married women working at home. One year courses are provided in the four technical teacher training colleges and shortened courses are available in most other colleges for suitably qualified candidates. Training grants have recently been increased, and special allowances are now available in certain cases for older people to help make good losses in salary.
    Mr. Boyden: Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that I am sorry that he has lumped these two categories together, because they are very different? Does not the hon. Gentleman know that in the first place there are far too few places for mature students, even with the stepping up? Is he aware that there is in the country a considerable number of people, both younger and older, who could be recruited if, first, provision were made in the colleges and, secondly, adequate financial provision were made for older people with families?
    Mr. Chataway: The hon. Member will be aware of the further increase in the size of teacher training colleges which has recently been announced. I share his wish to see more mature students coming into the teaching profession. In fact, the 2,250 students aged 25 or over who entered training colleges in 1961–62 included about 500 who were mostly people with industrial or commercial experience attending technical training colleges with a view to obtaining employment in further education.

    Primary Education
    Mr. Hiltonasked the Minister of Education when he intends to publish his proposals for the future of primary education.
    Mr. Chataway: My right hon. Friend hopes to make an announcement next month.
    Mr. Hilton: It will be interesting to hear that announcement, but will the Parliamentary Secretary ask his right hon. Friend to bear in mind that, although secondary and all higher education is of great importance, the majority of children start their education in our primary schools? Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the condition of many of these schools leaves much to be desired? Is he aware that some are a hundred years old and that they need modernising or rebuilding? Is he aware that often they are staffed by unqualified teachers? Will the Minister bear these points in mind and see that far more money is made available for primary education, in view of the fact that so many children start their education in primary schools?
    Mr. Chataway: It is because my right hon. Friend attaches such a high degree of importance to primary education that he is considering the possibility of an inquiry of this sort.
    Mr. G. Thomas: Will the Parliamentary Secretary ask his right hon. Friend whether he will take steps to close the 500 schools that were blacklisted before the war as being unfit for children to be taught in, but in which children are still being educated? May we have an assurance that in the new plans those schools will disappear?
    Mr. Chataway: I can assure the hon. Gentleman that within the rising total of allotted school building every effort will be made to get rid of these schools as soon as possible, but, as he will know, attention has been focussed upon secondary schools during the last three or four years.

    Norfolk County Council (Deputation)
    Mr. Hiltonasked the Minister of Education on what date he received a request to meet a deputation from the

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    Norfolk County Council to discuss urgent educational problems in Norfolk; and what was the date and nature of his reply.
    Mr. Chataway: The request was received on 31st December, 1962, and answered on 9th January, 1963. The authority was told that my right hon. Friend could not increase the size of its 1963–64 school building programme and that the size of the 1964–65 programme had still to be settled. In these circumstances he felt that no useful purpose could be served by his meeting a deputation to discuss the school building programme.
    Mr. Hilton: Upon reflection, will not the hon. Gentleman agree that this was a bad snub for the Norfolk County Council, of which I am a member, on the part of his right hon. Friend? Is he aware that among the many urgent educational problems in Norfolk we have the problem of village schools which are completely out-dated? Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there is also an urgent need for secondary schools, and particularly for one at East Dereham in my constituency? If the Minister is not prepared to meet a deputation from the county council and to listen to our problems, will the hon. Gentleman ask him to make certain that extra money is available so that we may get on with building the new secondary school which is so urgently needed at East Dereham?
    Mr. Chataway: My right hon. Friend carefully considered the case of the Norfolk authority and made certain that the authority had received its fair allocation. As the hon. Gentleman knows, this is not the first request which has been received from the authority for the Minister to receive a deputation. As my right hon. Friend could not receive a deputation from every local education authority I think that he was right to send the reply which he did.

    Industrial Training (Conference)
    Miss Quennellasked the Minister of Education if his Department was invited to send representatives to the British Association for Commercial and Industrial Education Conference on Industrial Training held on 15th January, 1963.
    Mr. Chataway: Yes, Sir. The Department was represented by an Assistant Secretary, whose name appears in the list of members circulated at the conference.

    Friarswood School, Newcastle-under-Lyme
    Mr. Swinglerasked the Minister of Education if he will ensure that the replacement of Friarswood School in Newcastle-under-Lyme is included in the next school building programme for Staffordshire.
    Mr. Chataway: My right hon. Friend has been unable to include this project in the 1964–65 programme.
    Mr. Swingler: Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that his Department consented to the replacement of this school in 1936 but unfortunately the war stopped work on it? Ever since that time, 27 years ago, his Department has refused to allow the school to be replaced. Is he not aware that it is a public scandal in north Staffordshire that this obsolete school is still in use? It should be replaced urgently. Will he, therefore, kindly reconsider his decision?
    Mr. Chataway: The 1964–65 major building programme for Staffordshire has had to be devoted to projects needed to provide school accommodation for additional children expected from the growing population and new housing. Even so, it totals over £1¼ million.
    Mr. Swingler: Has not the Parliamentary Secretary just heard the support in the House for urgent priority to be given to getting rid of slum schools? This school was considered obsolete 27 years ago when his Department agreed to its replacement. Therefore, will not he immediately put it on the list as an urgent matter?
    Mr. Chataway: No. I am not able to put it immediately on the list.
    Mr. Swingler: On a point of order. In view of the totally unsatisfactory answer, I give notice that I shall raise this matter on the Adjournment.

    Student, Blackburn (Grant)
    Mrs. Castleasked the Minister of Education why Mr. Dinnis of Blackburn, a married student of 21 years of age at

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    present undergoing a three-year teachers' training course, has been classed as dependent on his parents for grant purposes, in view of the fact that he had been earning his own living for nearly two years before taking up training, is receiving no financial help from his parents and has a wife and baby to support.
    Mr. Chataway: Under the grant arrangements men students are treated as independent of their parents if they are over 25 before they begin their course or have supported themselves for at least three years.
    Mrs. Castle: Does not this case prove how absurd these grant arrangements are? Does the Parliamentary Secretary believe that the right way to get the urgently required teachers is to tell a student that he must be either over 25 before he is married or that he should postpone his training until then? What is the good of the hon. Gentleman talking about the need to get more mature teachers in training when the Government are treating existing trainees in this way? My Question refers to a man who has been supporting himself for two years, who is now married, and has a baby 11 months old. Will not the right hon. Gentleman reconsider these grant arrangements in the light of experience, as his predecessor agreed to do when these Regulations were first discussed?
    Mr. Chataway: I will certainly undertake to look at this matter again, but this matter was endorsed by the Anderson Committee and it has been the practice that dependants' allowance should be paid only to students who are themselves treated as independent.
    Mrs. White: Does the Parliamentary Secretary recognise that the Government quote the Anderson Committee when it suits them and differ from it when they decide differently? Therefore, they cannot quote it in aid on this matter. Is not the hon. Gentleman aware that we had the strongest representations on this from the National Union of Students and other bodies? The present Regulations, with their present age limit, are quite unrealistic and out of keeping with modern trends. Will he ask his right hon. Friend to look seriously at this again?
    Mr. Chataway: I have said that the point will be considered, but, whether one quotes the Anderson Committee always or sometimes, the fact remains that this body of people came to the conclusion that this was the right arrangement.
    Mrs. Castle: On a point of order. In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I give notice that I shall raise this matter on the Adjournment.

    Grammar School Places, Newcastle-under-Lyme
    Mr. Swinglerasked the Minister of Education if he will state the proportion of grammar school places available in the excepted district of Newcastle-under-Lyme in each of the last five years.
    Mr. Chataway: As the Answer contains a table of figures, I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mr. Swingler: Do the figures show an increase or a diminution in the chances of a grammar school education?
    Mr. Chataway: A slight increase over the period the hon. Gentleman mentions.
    Following is the information:

    PUPILS AGED 13 ATTENDING MAINTAINED SCHOOLS IN THE BOROUGH OF NEWCASTLE-UNDER-LYME

    Year

    Attending Grammar Schools (a)

    Attending all maintained secondary schools* (b)

    (b) as percentage of (a)

    1958

    …

    396

    1,426

    27·8

    1959

    …

    326

    1,166

    28·0

    1960

    …

    405

    1,427

    28·4

    1961

    …

    397

    1,584

    25·1

    1962

    …

    373

    1,329

    28·1

    * Including senior pupils in one all-age school.

    London Nautical School
    Mr. C. Johnsonasked the Minister of Education what is delaying the completion of the new premises for the London Nautical School; and when he expects these alternative premises to be ready for occupation.
    Mr. Chataway: This project has not been delayed. It is on the L.C.C.'s

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    1963–64 school building programme. The authority is going ahead with plans and expects the new premises to be ready in September, 1965.
    Mr. Johnson: Does the Parliamentary Secretary regard this as satisfactory, since the building now being used was erected over 85 years ago and promises were given to the governing body that new premises would be provided in the past 10 years? During that period new nautical schools have been provided at Southampton, Cardiff, South Shields, Plymouth and many other places. Why should London lag so far behind?
    Mr. Chataway: I have said that the project has already been authorised, and I understand that the London County Council is making as great haste with it as it can.

  HOUSING

    Rented Accommodation London (Report)
    Mr. A. Lewisasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs what study he has made of the report from Family Service Units on accommodation and rents in the London area; and if he will make a statement.
    The Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs (Sir Keith Joseph): The report confirms what is well known—namely, that there is not enough cheap rented accommodation in London to go round. The answer lies mainly in the provision of more accommodation by local authorities and that is why I have been encouraging the London County Council and other authorities to increase their stock of dwellings for this purpose.
    Mr. Lewis: I thank the Minister for that lengthy reply. Does not this impartial report also show that the Government's attitude, as witnessed by their Rent Act and their subsequent action in having more houses built for sale than for rent and encouraging private house building against local authority house building, is one of the major causes of the difficulties which the Minister mentioned in his
    1472
    reply? Will not he change his policy and give those who need rented accommodation an opportunity to get it?
    Sir K. Joseph: No. I do not agree with the hon. Gentleman here, though I freely agree, and have agreed all along, that there is a serious problem for lower rented housing accommodation in London. The fact is that this report shows that there is accommodation to rent but it is at too high a price for the lower family incomes. That I accept. But before the Rent Act there was practically no accommodation to let at any price, because it was all sold.
    Mr. Lewis: Are we to take it that the Minister is saying that now there is more rented accommodation available but it is at such exorbitant prices that none of those who need it can afford to have it? What good is that? Will he not do something to bring the rents down so that those who really need accommodation can get it?
    Sir K. Joseph: Those who really need relatively cheap accommodation should look to the local authorities, whose stock is going up continuously. However, this is—I do not wish to hide it in any way—a very serious problem on which I have promised to make a statement as soon as I can.

  TRADE AND COMMERCE

    Anti-Dumping Duties
    Mr. Holtasked the President of the Board of Trade if he will give a list of the commodities in relation to which, following an application for anti-dumping duty under the Customs Duties (Dumping and Subsidies) Act 1957, he has achieved an agreement with the exporter complained about to raise the price, together with amount of increased price and the duration of the agreement.
    The President of the Board of Trade (Mr. F. J. Erroll): With permission, I will circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT details of the eight products for which, following a decision by the Board of Trade that duties under the Customs Duties (Dumping and Subsidies) Act, 1957, would be justified, the exporters

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    concerned have preferred to enter into equivalent price arrangements. These arrangements for the most part have not

    PARTICULARS OF PRICE ARRANGEMENTS ENTERED INTO BY FOREIGN EXPORTERS IN LIEU OF THE IMPOSITION OF ANTI-DUMPING DUTIES

    Commodity

    Country of Origin

    Particulars of price arrangements

    Date of announcement

    Pearled Barley

    Netherlands

    Export prices increased by 6s. per cwt.

    29th May, 1959

    Pentaerythritol

    Canada

    Export prices increased by 1d. per 1b.

    27th November, 1959

    Ammonium Sulphate.

    Federal Republic of Germany.

    Export prices increased by £2 10s. per ton

    29th April, 1960

    Belgium

    Export prices increased by £2 10s. per ton

    29th April, 1960

    Rice Starch

    Federal Republic of Germany.

    Export prices increased by £8 per ton by one German manufacturer, and £6 per ton by the other.

    16th September, 1960

    Corduroy

    Spain

    The Spanish industry undertook that future exports would not be made at dumped or subsidised prices. The amount of the resultant price increase varied with the quality of cloth.

    4th August, 1961

    Barley

    Australia, France

    Contracts for crop year 1st July, 1961–30th June, 1962, to be made at price not less than £20 per ton c.i.f. duty-paid. (At the same time the U.S.S.R. agreed that sales would be limited to 150,000 tons in crop year 1st July, 1961–30th June, 1962).

    3rd August, 1961

    Polyethylene

    U.S.A.

    Export prices increased by 3d. per 1b.

    18th May, 1962

    Italy

    Export prices increased by 1d. per 1b.

    18th May, 1962

    Styrene Monomer.

    U.S.A.

    Export prices increased by up to £11 per ton.

    5th October, 1962

    Remington-Rand Factory, Glasgow
    Mr. Millanasked the President of the Board of Trade if he is aware of the redundancy of 1,100 workers from 22nd February at the factory of Remington-Rand, Millington, Glasgow; and what action he proposes to take.
    Mr. Erroll: I was sorry to learn about the reduction of the scale of operations at this factory at Hillington, and the consequent discharge of part of the labour force. The company, which has been in touch with us, regrets that it must take this step for commercial reasons. Although there is nothing that I can do in this particular case, I shall go on doing my utmost to encourage the introduction and expansion of industry in the area by the vigorous use of my powers under the Local Employment Act.
    Mr. Millan: Could not the President of the Board of Trade give us something more than the stereotyped reply he gave in the latter part of his Answer? Has he actively intervened with this company to see whether this redundancy can be avoided? This will give rise to a dread-
    been subject to any special termination date.
    Following are the details:
    fully serious situation in the area, as he must know, in view of other redundancies and unemployment. Will he do something a little more active than he seems to have done up to the present to see if this redundancy could be avoided and some relief given, if only for the next few months? This has happened at absolutely the worst time of the year.
    Mr. Erroll: In replying, I should like to thank the hon. Gentleman for the letter he wrote me on this subject and say that I went into the matter very closely, and so did my officials, and I was quite certain that there was no intervention which I could usefully make in a situation which I personally regretted very much.
    Mr. J. Robertson: Is the President of the Board of Trade aware that this redundancy is of two-thirds of the labour force? Is he aware further that the people employed in the factory are of the opinion that there is no lack of orders for their product? Does he not think that this is a case where a special inquiry should be made by his Department?
    Mr. Erroll: No. Unfortunately, what the employees think is not the case. The

    1475
    firm would dearly like to have the orders and to keep in production, but it has not got the orders.
    Mr. Ross: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that we should like a little more work, vigour and effective action from him? There is certainly no evidence in Scotland of the vigour and action he says he has been applying to this task. When will the Government get down to business? This is happening week after week. The out-flow of jobs from this pipeline is taking place much more speedily than the number of jobs coming into Scotland from the much heard of pipeline.
    Mr. Erroll: I do not want in any way to minimise the seriousness of the unemployment problem in Scotland, but the evidence of the many new factories in Scotland is proof of the vigour with which we are pursuing this policy.
    Mr. Ross: The factory in this Question is one of them.

  NATIONAL FINANCE

    Income Tax (Travelling Expenses)
    Dr. D. Johnsonasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will introduce Income Tax allowances in respect of travelling expenses to and from work.
    The Chief Secretary to the Treasury and Paymaster-General (Mr. John Boyd-Carpenter): My hon. Friend will not, I am sure, expect me to anticipate my right hon. Friend's Budget statement.
    Dr. Johnson: Is my right hon. Friend aware, none the less, of the increasing burden travelling to work places on many people? Is he aware that the provisions of war-time reliefs, which are still on the form being circulated, are now out of date? Will he not give some relief of a more up-to-date kind?
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: This matter has been discussed on successive Finance Bills, and I think the one thing which has become very apparent is that this is not quite as easy as my hon. Friend thinks.
    Mr. Callaghan: As we have already had statements of his right hon. Friend's
    1476
    intentions in relation to initial allowances, investment allowances and the repeal of Schedule A, why does the Chief Secretary take the view that we cannot expect a statement on this matter?
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: The hon. Member knows only too well that there may be good reasons for the special treatment in the interests of the national economy of the particular matters to which he has referred.
    Mr. Wade: Would not the right hon. Gentleman agree that there is high level unemployment in certain areas and great housing shortage in others where employment is available? For this reason, an increasing number of people are having to travel a considerable distance to and from their work. Will he, therefore, agree that this is a strong case for reviewing this rule?
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: There is a very considerable problem for people travelling long distances to work, but if the hon. Member will study the Royal Commission on Taxation's Report, paragraphs 236 and 237, he will see well set out the pros and cons on this matter.

    Parliamentary Elections (Civil Servants)
    Mr. Moreasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if, parallel to the inquiry being held into the position of Service men wishing to stand for Parliament, he will review the rules regarding civil servants who wish to stand.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: No, Sir. I have no reason to believe that the present rules are other than reasonable. If it appeared that any change made in the rules affecting members of the Armed Forces might have repercussions I would then, of course, look at the matter again.
    Mr. More: I thank my right hon. Friend for that reply. Will be bear in mind that there are certain anomalies in the position as it now stands and that these might be accentuated if new rules are made affecting the Armed Services?
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: The question of new rules affecting the Armed Services is hypothetical but, as I have said, if such new rules arise we would certainly be prepared to look again at the rules affecting the Civil Service of the Crown.

  EMPLOYMENT

    Trainees, Residential Colleges (Grants)
    Mr. Awberyasked the Minister of Labour if he is aware that four residential colleges for trainees have not received the additional allowances granted by his Department, that the syllabus of the Ministry of Labour trainees at these establishments is the same as at other training centres which receive the grant, and that many of the trainees do not receive the full 100 per cent. disablement grant; and if he will take steps to put them all on the same basis.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour (Mr. William Whitelaw): I would refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply my right hon. Friend gave the hon. Member for Durham (Mr Grey) on 12th December.
    Mr. Awbery: Will the Minister take steps to see that wherever these men are trained, in whatever colleges, uniformity of treatment is meted out to them by the Government?
    Mr. Whitelaw: My right hon. Friend appreciates the strength of feeling on this subject and hopes to be in a position to make a statement soon.

  MINISTRY OF HEALTH

    Audiological Technicians (Pay)
    Dr. D. Johnsonasked the Minister of Health why audiological technicians have not been included in the grant of 7½ per cent. increase in salary for workers in other professions supplementary to medicine.
    The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health (Mr. Bernard Braine): They are not among the classes covered by this Whitley agreement. They are represented on a different Whitley Council and have made a separate claim, which has been referred to the Industrial Court.
    Dr. Johnson: Can the Parliamentary Secretary explain exactly why these very valuable and highly-skilled people are left out of the increase that has been made for the professions supplementary to medicine? Why does he not include them
    1478
    in the category of professions supplementary to medicine?
    Mr. Braine: I am glad to be able to assure my hon. Friend that these technicians have not been left out. Their claim has been the subject of dispute in their Whitley Council and has been referred to arbitration. While it is perfectly true that the work of these technicians is supplementary to medicine, they are not quite in the same category as those covered by the Act. They are outside the Act and are dealt with by a separate Whitley Council.
    Dr. King: Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that the hospital technicians and medical auxiliaries accepted the new Whitley award under protest? Does he not consider that there is need for an inquiry into the whole structure of the auxiliaries and technicians, such as those mentioned by his hon. Friend the Member for Carlisle (Dr. D. Johnson), since these are extremely qualified men in a rapidly developing technological hospital service?
    Mr. Braine: That may be correct, but it would be quite wrong for me, in the context of that supplementary question, to comment on a matter which is now the subject of arbitration.

  HONG KONG

    Electricity
    Mr. Rankinasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what consideration he has given to the recommendation of the Commission of Inquiry appointed in 1959 by the Governor of Hong Kong, that the production and distribution of electrical power in this Colony should be nationalised; and what action is being taken in the matter.
    The Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies (Mr. Nigel Fisher): The arrangement referred to by my right hon. Friend's predecessor on 5th June, 1962, in reply to the hon. Member for Farnworth (Mr. Thornton) has failed to secure the consent of the shareholders. Other possible arrangements are now under consideration.
    Mr. Rankin: As this matter has now been under consideration for a very long

    1479
    time and no consent has been secured, will the hon. Gentleman give us an idea of the other arrangements which are being considered?
    Mr. Fisher: Yes. The Hong Kong Government are now considering two different courses. One is to negotiate separate control agreements. The second is to impose by legislation a degree of control upon these companies; but, of course, this might involve compensation to shareholders, so we have to be rather careful.

    HOUSE OF COMMONS PROCEEDINGS (BROADCASTS)
    Mr. Ellis Smithasked the Prime Minister (1) if he will arrange for consultations so that arrangements can be made for televising the proceedings of the House of Commons by the preparation of films daily, or for an experiment to be made for a limited period of televising Question Time so that it can be shown on film in the evening when people are at home;
    (2) if he will consult the British Broadcasting Corporation and the Independent Television Authority, so that arrangements can be made for direct sound broadcasts of the proceedings of the House of Commons during Question Time and between half-past six and half-past eight o'clock.
    The Prime Minister (Mr. Harold Macmillan): No, Sir. If I was aware of any general desire in the House for arrangements of the kind suggested, I would certainly take it into account. I do not think that it exists at present.
    Sir T. Moore: Will my right hon. Friend again bear in mind that not all of us are so photogenic as himself and that many of us are not so publicity minded as are others? Will he, therefore, turn a sour frown on this preposterous proposal?
    Mr. Gresham Cooke: May I—
    Mr. Speaker: Order. I had not called anyone, because I was waiting to see if the Prime Minister intended to reply to that supplementary question.
    Mr. Wilkins: Would the Prime Minister agree that while a decision as to whether or not it would be wise to televise
    1480
    or broadcast by sound radio the proceedings of the House would rest essentially on a balance of the advantages over the disadvantages—and I recognise the latter, of course—to do so would stimulate attendance in the House and interest outside and give our constituents an opportunity to see just how frustrated their hon. Members may become when they have sat in the House for two days endeavouring to take part in a debate on a matter of great public interest and have failed to be called?
    The Prime Minister: I appreciate the view of my hon. Friend the Member for Ayr (Sir T. Moore) and I also understand that expressed by the hon. Member for Bristol, South (Mr. Wilkins). However, it is really a matter for the House itself. We took soundings as generally as we could in 1959 and again in 1960 and I am not aware of any real change of opinion among hon. Members as a whole.
    Mr. Gresham Cooke: Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that there has been a programme on sound radio for very many years, at 10.45 each night, which has a very good audience? Might there not be a case for having a similiar, short, edited programme at about the same time on television? Would not this increase the prestige of Parliament and public interest in Parliament?
    The Prime Minister: I think there is nothing to prevent there being a television programme of that kind, but that is rather different from these proposals. I am not an expert, but I should have thought that it would be rather difficult to make Question Time very good from a broadcasting point of view unless the public were given an Order Paper, otherwise the proceedings would be difficult to follow.
    Mr. Callaghan: Whatever the photogenic qualities of the hon. Member for Ayr (Sir T. Moore), does not the Prime Minister agree that the sound of his melifluous tones over the sound radio might well gain him a few votes? He has a very attractive voice. On the general question, however, can we really decide this by a chorus of "Hears, hears" on either side when this matter is raised? Might it not be of advantage to the House if, at some time, we had a half-day debate on the matter so that we could thrash out the pros and cons?
    The Prime Minister: I should be quite ready to do that. We took fairly general soundings on the last occasion, but if the hon. Member was to approach the usual channels about his desire to discuss the matter, perhaps that would be one method. I think I am right in saying that I see no change in the general view which would justify the Government, on their own, taking such an initiative.

    UNEMPLOYMENT, SCOTLAND
    Mr. Hoyasked the Prime Minister if he will now make a further announcement on the proposals put to him by the Scottish Trades Union Congress to combat unemployment in Scotland.
    The Prime Minister: I would refer the hon. Member to the Answers which I gave to the hon. Member for West Fife (Mr. W. Hamilton) on 12th February.
    Mr. Hoy: That is not good enough. Is the Prime Minister aware that the position in Scotland is getting steadily worse and that his right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade this afternoon has just confirmed that 1,100 more men in Scotland, in one firm alone, will get notices to quit tomorrow? Will the Government expedite the recommendations of, firstly, the Mackenzie Committee in regard to the erection of a new coal-fired power station in Scotland and, secondly, the recommendation of the Rochdale Committee to proceed immediately with considerable dock extensions at Leith?
    The Prime Minister: Regarding those two practical proposals, I think I mentioned a few days ago, on the first, that I hoped very soon to be able to make an announcement. The technical advice is now being considered and I hope that that will soon be settled. On the second proposal, that is very much in mind.
    Mr. Hector Hughes: The Prime Minister referred to some Answer that he gave in the past, but does he realise that this is a very urgent and important matter involving human happiness in Scotland? Unemployment is increasing. Britain is the largest mercantile nation in the world, but we will lose that primacy unless the shipyards are given more work. Will he now take steps to accept the recent Russian offer to send
    1482
    contracts for shipbuilding to this country on certain conditions?
    The Prime Minister: As I say, we have had many Questions and Answers on the general question and, of course, it is a very important problem which we are doing all we can to resolve. My right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade has made a statement on the special question, and I think that it would be wiser to leave the matter where it now is if we hope for a successful conclusion.
    Mr. Woodburn: Is the Prime Minister aware that the quickest way of making a contribution to this problem is for him to ask his Ministers to see whether they could not direct orders to existing industries in Scotland to stimulate employment, rather than wait until new industries come in?
    The Prime Minister: I will certainly bear that in mind.

    CARDIFF CITY COUNCIL (DEPUTATION)
    Mr. G. Thomasasked the Prime Minister what reply he has sent to the Cardiff Corporation's request that he should receive a deputation from them to discuss hardship arising out of the Housing Act, 1957.
    The Prime Minister: The Cardiff City Council asked me to receive a deputation to discuss the possible hardship arising from a slum clearance order submitted to my right hon. Friend the Minister of Housing and Local Government by the council. I understand that this order will shortly be the subject of a public inquiry, and I have told the city council that I do not think that it would be appropriate for the issue of hardship to be discussed while this matter is sub judice.
    Mr. Thomas: Is the Prime Minister aware that the local authority wishes to discuss the issues that arise, not out of possible hardship but out of real and practical hardship, as a consequence of the Housing Act, 1957? Since Government policy is involved here, would he give further consideration to this question, so that local authorities, other than

    1483
    Cardiff, which have already experienced difficulties under this Act, may know where they stand?
    The Prime Minister: I quite understand that, but I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will agree that while I am always ready to receive deputations—and do see a great many—in this case, since it is attached to a particular problem now to be inquired into under the procedures of public inquiry, it would not really be right for me to involve myself at this stage.

    PRIME MINISTER AND PRESIDENT DE GAULLE (CONVERSATIONS)
    Mr. G. Thomasasked the Prime Minister whether, in view of President de Gaulle's disclosure of the matters discussed between them in December last, he will make a further statement on this matter.
    The Prime Minister: I would refer the hon. Member to the Answers which I gave to Questions on this subject on 12th February.
    Mr. Thomas: I expected that reply, but now that the Prime Minister has had time for second thoughts, and since the reply he gave us on Tuesday was so evasive, will he not be as frank with us as he was with General de Gaulle, on the assurance that we will treat his confidences with exactly the same amount of courtesy and consideration?
    The Prime Minister: I understand the hon. Gentleman's views, but I do not think that I have anything to add to the answers I gave to the very large number of supplementary questions on Tuesday.

    PRINCESS MARGARET (PARIS VISIT)
    Mr. Rankinasked the Prime Minister if he will make a statement on the advice given by Her Majesty's Government which led to the cancellation of a visit to Paris on 9th March by a Member of the Council of State.
    Mr. Emrys Hughesasked the Prime Minister if he will make a statement on the advice he tendered to a Counsellor of State to cancel her proposed visit to France.
    The Prime Minister: I would refer hon. Members to the Answer which I gave to the hon. Member for Leeds, West (Mr. C. Pannell) on 12th February.
    Mr. Rankin: Does the Prime Minister recall that on Monday he told us that this visit was mainly an unofficial one? Does he now realise that, as a result of his intervention, it has become mainly an official one? Is he aware that it is widely believed that he terminated the visit because he was determined to use the Princess as an instrument in his political feud with President de Gaulle? Does he think that good for either the country or his own standing?
    The Prime Minister: If the hon. Gentlman will read what I said in that debate he will find that he has quite misrepresented it. I said that at this moment certain aspects of the visit would naturally take on a semi-official character, but whether this was a. right or a wrong judgment, it was certainly not made for the motives the hon. Gentleman has attributed to me.
    Mr. Emrys Hughes: Now that the right hon. Gentleman has had an opportunity for reflection, would he not agree that his original decision was somewhat impetuous and precipitate? Is he aware that President de Gaulle has been far more generous, in that he allowed the "Mona Lisa" to go to America? Does he not think that he could forestall President de Gaulle diplomatically by switching this Counsellor-of-State visit over to Moscow?
    The Prime Minister: I will consider that.

    MACHINERY OF GOVERNMENT
    Mr. J. Rodgersasked the Prime Minister if he will consider setting up a small committee, headed by a former senior civil servant who has subsequently had business experience, to investigate how the machinery of Government could be brought fully up to date.
    The Prime Minister: There have been several committees recently which are in line with what I think my hon. Friend has in mind.
    Mr. Rodgers: Would not my right hon. Friend agree that while the Civil Service enjoys a unique reputation for industry, integrity, intelligence and fairness, nevertheless it is slow in considering matters, and very slow in reaching

    1485
    decisions, and that, in this speeded-up age, it might help the Government to conduct affairs better if we did not have to rely quite so much on our present machinery of Government?
    The Prime Minister: I quite appreciate my hon. Friend's purpose, and I know that he has considerable knowledge of this problem. On the whole, I think that we have done best to treat it in separate compartments, so to speak. There was the Plowden Committee on Public Expenditure, most of whose Report was very valuable and is now being implemented, and there have been other Committees dealing with the Foreign Service and the Commonwealth Relations Office. I think that it may be better to proceed on those lines rather than try to have a generalised inquiry into the whole Civil Service, which covers such an enormous field.
    Dr. King: Is the Prime Minister aware that some of us do not share his hon. Friend's view about inefficiency in the Civil Service, and think that there might be a case for a group of civil servants to investigate how the machinery of business could be brought fully up to date?
    The Prime Minister: I thought that my hon. Friend paid tribute to the efficiency of the Civil Service, and I think that we all do that. I am sure that the purpose of any of these inquiries—the Plowden Committee and the others I have referred to—has been welcomed by the Civil Service, and has been very helpful in improving its work.

    HONG KONG (EXPLOSIVES AND NAPALM)
    Mr. P. Noel-Bakerasked the Prime Minister whether he will consult President Kennedy with a view to joint action by Her Majesty's Government and the Government of the United States to prevent the supply from Formosa of explosives and napalm through Hong Kong for use in Southern China.
    The Prime Minister: I am sure that all friendly Governments share our concern that Hong Kong should not be used as a base for sabotage against a foreign territory.
    Mr. Noel-Baker: I am grateful for that reply, but is the Prime Minister aware that this large-scale, dangerous
    1486
    and ridiculous Kuomintang banditry is carried out through Hong Kong by agents who are armed by the United States and trained by United States officers, and will not he suggest to President Kennedy that he should tell Chiang Kai-Shek that this must stop?
    The Prime Minister: Of course, we do everything we can to discourage this, including representations to our American friends if they have any responsibility—of which I was not aware. We are also, in consultation with the Governor, taking the most stringent action we can but, as the right hon. Gentleman knows, in this crowded city there are difficulties in catching the offenders. But the penalties are very heavy, and I am hopeful that we shall be able to stamp it out.
    Mr. Noel-Baker: I am very grateful to the Prime Minister for that answer, but is be aware that when I was in Hong Kong recently, I learned that this is a cause of very great anxiety and expense to the Hong Kong Government and police, and can be stopped only by the United States Government; and that if President Kennedy will say so, it will stop?
    The Prime Minister: I am rather doubtful whether there is that degree of control by the American Government over the Formosa Government, but I shall certainly bear the right hon. Gentleman's suggestion in mind.

MALTA DOCKYARD (BAILEY LTD.)
The following Question stood upon the Order Paper:
Mr. BROCKWAY: To ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will make a statement on economic plans for Malta following the restricted use of the dockyard.
The Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations and Secretary of State for the Colonies (Mr. Duncan Sandys): With permission, I will now answer Question No. 34.
There is no intention to restrict the use of the dockyard. However, in view of recent differences, I wish to explain the position to the House.

1487
The House will recollect that, in 1958, owing to changes in our naval deployment, it was decided that the Admiralty dockyard at Malta should be converted and operated as a commercial ship-repairing yard. A long lease was granted to a new company, Bailey (Malta) Limited, formed for this purpose by C. H. Bailey Limited, of Newport, Monmouthshire. Under agreements with the company, Her Majesty's Government have undertaken to make loans up to a total of £7¼ million to help meet the cost of the conversion and equipment of the yard and to provide working capital. Up to date, about £3 million have been advanced.
In 1960, certain financial transactions of the company caused concern and an investigation was carried out by Sir Richard Yeabsley, accountant adviser to the Board of Trade. In the light of his report, my predecessor required the company to appoint two independent directors nominated by him, Sir Richard Yeabsley and Mr. Harming Phillips. At the same time, a third independent director, Mr. Lawrence Robson, nominated by the company, was also appointed. These three directors all resigned in April, 1962.
Thereupon, my predecessor appointed Mr. J. R. Muirie, a partner of Peat, Marwick, Mitchell and Company, chartered accountants, to inspect the company's accounts. Last August, Mr. Muirie submitted his report, which is now available in the Vote Office. The facts revealed in the report convinced me that the company had in a number of respects not been conducting its business in a proper manner, and I accordingly called upon the company to remedy the matters complained of within 30 days, as provided for in the Financial Agreement with Her Majesty's Government.
Since the company took no steps to put things right, I decided to adopt a procedure provided for in the agreement for the replacement of certain directors. However, the company issued a writ, which, among other things, questioned my right to take this course. In view of this action by the company, it would obviously have been improper for me to seek to replace the directors who were conducting the litigation against the Government.
1488
Having, therefore, felt obliged to abandon this course, I sought redress under another clause of the agreement which provides that, when breaches of the agreement are not remedied by the company, the Government are entitled to claim repayment of the loans advanced. I caused a writ to be isued for this purpose on 17th January.
In view of the situation revealed by the Muirie report, it was obviously not possible to continue to advance further public money to the company, or to enter into contracts with it for Admiralty repairs. It was equally impossible to allow the dockyard, which is one of Malta's most important sources of employment, to be brought to a standstill, pending the settlement of the litigation, which will probably take many months.
The Prime Minister of Malta and I discussed the whole situation when he was over here in December and we have since then kept in close touch. As a result, we agreed that some way must be urgently found of putting the dockyard under a new and trusted management, to whom loan payments could be resumed and with whom Admiralty contracts could be placed.
I discussed the matter with the chairman and managing director of the company, Group Captain Bailey and Mr. Christopher Bailey, to see whether the necessary change of management could be effected by agreement. However, despite protracted talks, it proved impossible to secure their consent to any arrangement which I would have felt able to justify to the House.
In the absence of any agreed solution, the Prime Minister of Malta, after discussions with me, has decided to introduce today in the Malta Legislature a Bill to set up a Council of Administration to which most of the functions of the board of the company will he temporarily transferred, pending the settlement of the issue, either by negotiation or by the courts.
This action has my full support. The Bill also provides that any powers conferred on the Council of Administration which are found not to be necessary for the discharge of its responsibilities can be transferred back to the board of directors.
The members of the Council of Administration will be appointed by the

1489
Prime Minister of Malta after consultation with the Colonial Secretary.
Subject to the passage of the Bill, Sir Eric Millbourn, who has great experience in shipping matters and port administration, and is port adviser to the Minister of Transport, will be appointed chairman of the Council. The other members will include Sir Nicholas Cayzer, chairman of the British and Commonwealth Shipping Company, Mr. Guy Densem, the senior partner in Deloitte, Plender, Griffiths and Company, chartered accountants, and Lord Melchett, a director of M. Samuel and Company, merchant bankers.
The Prime Minister of Malta and I wish to express our thanks to these gentlemen for agreeing, without remuneration, to serve on this Council and to give Malta the benefit of their wide business experience. I understand that they may consider appointing a leading firm of ship-repairers to act as managing agents.
These arrangements will enable us to make further loan payments to finance the conversion of the dockyard and to resume Admiralty orders. Subject to a satisfactory contract, the First Lord proposes in the near future to send H.M.S. "Troubridge" to Malta for a major refit. This should provide employment for several hundred men for over a year.
Her Majesty's Government and the Government of Malta have from the start been extremely reluctant to intervene. We have, however, felt it our duty to do so in order to ensure the proper use of public money and to protect the interests of the many thousands of Maltese people whose livelihood is directly or indirectly dependent upon the dockyard.
Mr. Brockway: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that many of us who have been following events in Malta are not surprised by the statement which he has just made? Could he clear up one matter? Is the new Council, which is to take the place of the present directors, to continue to act for the private company and for the shareholders in that company? If so, is not that a most extraordinary arrangement? Would not it be far better, rather than that this Council should act temporarily, that the dockyard should be made the
1490
ownership of the Maltese people themselves and that the Maltese people should be able to decide and determine their future with all the technical aid that we can give?
Mr. Sandys: I really do not think that nationalisation will help Malta in the one thing which it most needs, which is outside investment.
Mr. Wall: My right hon. Friend stated that this dispute had been going on for about three years. Is he aware that it also held up the conversion of the dockyard for two years? Can my right hon. Friend give us an assurance that the Council of Administration will do its very best to maintain the present level of employment in the dockyard, and that he will do his best to create a new atmosphere which will attract investment to the George Cross island?
Mr. Sandys: I can certainly give my hon. Friend that assurance.
Mr. Dugdale: Is the Secretary of State aware that many of us on this side welcome his decision, but are extremely surprised that he has taken such a long time to reach it, particularly since he was advised as long ago as 1958 by the Maltese General Workers' Union that the scheme would not be a success? Why has he been, as he says himself, so reluctant to take this necessary action for such a very long time?
Mr. Sandys: I think that it is a very proper attitude for Governments to be reluctant to intervene in commercial matters.
Sir W. Teeling: My right hon. Friend said that he has placed the Muirie Report in the Vote Office. Can he say whether he has also put in the replies of the company to the questions and the accusations in the Muirie Report, in view of the fact that this matter is sub judice?
Mr. Sandys: I asked the company to let me have its comments a long time ago. I said that, if it sent them to me by 31st January, I would publish them together with the Muirie Report. I did not receive them by 31st January. I only received them some time this month, and by that time we had already gone to print.

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What matters really, with all respect to this honourable House, is that they get into the newspapers. The company's comments, which are still only preliminary observations, will, I understand, be given to the Press and published at the same time.
Mr. Healey: We shall want to examine the Secretary of State's statement closely and, of course, to read the Report which has only just become available. At first sight, it seems a reasonable answer to the problems which have been created by an unfortunate series of decisions in the past.
Could the right hon. Gentleman answer the question which, I think, was at the back of the mind of my hon. Friend the Member for Eton and Slough (Mr. Brockway), namely, to whom will this Council of Administration be responsible? Will it be responsible to the Government of Malta, which appoints it, or to the board of Messrs. Bailey, or to some other body? Could the right hon. Gentleman explain why, if this decision was pending, the Government took the extraordinary decision in advance to terminate a series of Admiralty contracts, although it was inevitable that this termination would, and has, created a great deal of concern and unrest on the island itself?
Mr. Sandys: The Council of Administration will be responsible to those who appoint it, namely, the Government of Malta. It will not be responsible to the board of directors or to the shareholders.
The stoppage of Admiralty orders was a purely temporary measure. It was a difficult situation in which to place orders with the company, but it is very temporary, and, as far as I know, it has not caused the discharge of a single man in the dockyard.
Mr. Woodnutt: Bearing in mind that a labour force of about 5,000 men has been maintained and that the ratio of commercial work to Admiralty work is about six to four, how does my right hon. Friend propose to continue attracting commercial work? Will he use the overseas sales force of Messrs. Bailey? If not, where will the burden of this large cost be borne? Will it be borne by the Admiralty, the Colonial Office, or the Government of Malta?
Mr. Sandys: The House will not expect me to do the job of these new administrators, who have just been put in.
Mr. Grimond: Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us what the relationship of the Council of Administration is to the shareholders of Messrs. Bailey?
Mr. Sandys: It has temporarily taken over most of the functions of management, the functions which normally belong to the board of directors. There is no direct link between the two, but it is open to the shareholders to make any representations which they wish to the Council of Administration.
Mr. Grant-Ferris: Bearing in mind that the crying need of Malta is the influx of more capital, will my right hon. Friend say whether the arrangements which he has made will be conducive to that end? Particularly does he think that a firm such as the Bethlehem Steel Corporation, which has shown great interest in going into Malta, will be encouraged by the action which he has taken?
Mr. Sandys: I think that good administration makes for confidence and that confidence makes for outside investment.
Mr. G. Brown: Nobody would want to make the task of the Council of Administration any more difficult. We would all want to help it. On the other hand, does not the situation which the right hon. Gentleman has outlined begin to appear a bit complicated and confused? He says that the Council will be responsible to the Government of Malta, who appoint it. It will then be administering assets which, to a large extent, belong to the shareholders of the company. It will be making decisions which involve other people's property. How does it get authority to do that? What power does it have to dispose of or otherwise deal with assets which do not belong to it'? Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us more about how the whole thing will work?
Mr. Sandys: I do not think that I can go into very great detail. Of course, this is a complicated set-up to deal with a complicated situation. If this happened in the ordinary course of events, the Government would stand back, orders would stop, the company would either solve its problems or not, and the litigation would take its course. But

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we cannot afford to allow that to happen here, because of the big employment problem which is mixed up with this. We have, therefore, had to find a solution which does not deprive the shareholders of their property, but which, at the same time, enables further public money to be put into this concern and protects the employment interests of the people of Malta.
Mr. G. M. Thomson: On a point of order. May I direct your attention, Mr. Speaker, to the fact that there is on the Order Paper a Notice of Motion for Unopposed Returns:
"Mr. Nigel Fisher. Malta: Address for Return containing Reports on Bailey (Malta) Ltd. by Mr. G. B. Muirie and Sir Richard Yeabsley, with an explanatory introduction."
The Minister has just made a statement which hon. Members wish to question, having the maximum information available to them. I sought these documents from the Vote Office two minutes before the Minister made his statement. They were not available. The Minister said that he had asked Messrs. Bailey Ltd. to make its replies available to him by 31st January, so that they might be published for the information of the House. Today is 14th February. It is public knowledge that the Minister had his interview with Messrs Bailey Ltd. earlier this week.
Is it not very difficult for the House to deal with the Minister's statement since this Notice of Motion was put on the Order Paper for this afternoon, and the documents involved in it are not available to hon. Members, and there is not adequate time for them to absorb them so that they can question the Minister's statement? Further—
Mr. Speaker: Would the hon. Gentleman indicate what is the point of order?
Mr. Thomson: With respect, I am addressing this to you, Mr. Speaker, as the guardian of the rights of Members of the House. We have had a very important statement on public policy from the Secretary of State on a matter which he himself has said was available to him some weeks ago.
Mr. Speaker: I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will understand that I cannot allow a point of order to be made a cue for a speech. If the hon. Gentleman
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does not like what the Minister has done about not putting down his Notice for an Unopposed Return sooner, it is a matter between him and the Minister which he must deal with, but I cannot deal with it as a point of order.
I should have to inquire about the course of events with regard to the reports not being available in the Vote Office a few moments ago. I cannot help the House about that matter now. The reason that I am being a little austere is that every day I have great trouble. One day lately there were 31 hon. Members wishing to speak on one side and I was in a position to select only three. I am anxious that we should not consume the time for other business.
Mr. Thomson: Further to that point of order. I was certainly not seeking to make a speech, Sir. I was merely drawing attention to the fact that a Notice of Motion for Unopposed Returns was given on the Order Paper today—presumably, with your consent, Mr. Speaker—on a matter which is of immense public importance. Hon. Members are unable to receive the documentation that enables them to cross-question the Minister and—
Mr. Speaker: Order. This is getting very much like a speech, whether it is intended to be one or not. The Notice was put on the Order Paper by authority of the Minister, who is allowed to put it there provided that it is not offensive, which, in form, it is not. If he did it at the wrong time, that would be a matter between the hon. Member and the House and the Minister.
Mr. Sandys: I have no wish to mislead the House. I understood that the papers were due to be in the Vote Office at half-past three. The hon. Member complains that I did not publish the report before making my statement. It is normal for Ministers to present papers to the House and to introduce them with a statement. That is what I have done today.
Sir W. Teeling: On a point of order. I should like your guidance, Mr. Speaker. My right hon. Friend has told us that the statement has now been published and, presumably, it is under the protection of the House. He has also told us that the reply of Bailey's can be issued in the Press. Is that equally protected?
Mr. Speaker: That is not a point of order.
Sir W. Teeling: I was asking guidance, Mr. Speaker, as to whether—
Mr. Speaker: Order. I do not make pronouncements about the application of the law of defamation to newspapers. I have enough to do without that.
Mr. G. M. Thomson: Further to that point of order—
Mr. Speaker: What is the point of order?
Mr. Thomson: I apologise for pressing it, Sir. I preface my remarks by saying that I do not necessarily disagree with what the Minister has said. The Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations and Secretary of State for the Colonies is, however, about to leave for Kenya and will not be available for some time. I suggest to you, Mr. Speaker, as the guardian of the rights of the House, that it is a considerable discourtesy that these papers, on which our questions are bound to be based, are not available.
Mr. Speaker: The hon. Gentleman is so charming and convincing that I indulge him much too much: but it does not resemble a point of order.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Mr. G. Brown: May I ask the Leader of the House whether he will state the business of the House for next week?
The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Mr. Iain Macleod): Yes, Sir. The business for next week will be as follows:
MONDAY, 18TH FEBRUARY—National Assistance (Determination of Need) Amendment Regulations, until seven o'clock, when private Members' Motions will be considered.
Afterwards, the Motion on Parliamentary Elections.
TUESDAY, 19TH FEBRUARY—Remaining stages of the Agriculture (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill.
The Pig Industry Development Authority (Functions), and Levy Scheme (Approval) Orders and the Meat Industry (Scientific Research Levy) Order.
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WEDNESDAY, 20TH FEBRUARY—London Government Bill (Clause 1 and Schedule I): Committee [2nd Allotted Day].
THURSDAY, 21ST FEBRUARY—Second Reading of the Criminal Justice (Scotland) Bill [Lords], and Committee stage of the Money Resolution.
Afterwards, the Prison Commissioners Dissolution Order.
FRIDAY, 22ND FEBRuARY—Consideration of Private Members' Bills.
MONDAY, 25TH FEBRUARY—The proposed business will be:
Second Reading of the Television Bill.
Motion on the Motor Vehicles (Tests) (Extension) Order, 1963.
Mr. G. Brown: In view of the passage of time, can the Minister yet tell us when the Defence White Paper is likely to be published?
Mr. Macleod: I am not certain of the exact day, but it will be in the middle of next week, probably Wednesday.
Sir T. Moore: On Thursday's business, is my right hon. Friend aware that there is much division of opinion about the abolition of the much-respected Prison Commission? Could he not give us more time, and a better time, than our Scottish colleagues are likely to leave us?
Mr. Macleod: It is always possible that we will get on to the Order earlier. In any event, it is exempted business.
Mr. V. Yates: In view of the fact that the previous Home Secretary gave an assurance to the House during the Committee stage of the Bill that we should be given adequate time to discuss the Order concerning the Prison Commission, is it fair to put it on as an Order which is most likely not to come on before Ten o'clock on Thursday night? I ask the Minister to reconsider the matter, as there is widespread opinion on both sides and much concern about this change, which should be adequately discussed before it is finally agreed.
Mr. Macleod: I know of the feelings about this matter. It is partly for that reason that the Order has been put down for a day when there is, at least, a possibility—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."]

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lea us leave it at that—at least a possibility that it will be reached earlier. The Order was included in my business announcement for last week and had it been taken, it would certainly have come on after Ten o'clock. I hope that we will reach it at a reasonable hour.
Mr. W. Yates: Has my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House been informed by the Foreign Secretary that one of Her Majesty's legations is to be forcibly closed next week? Will he consider giving time for a debate before a foreign legation of this country is closed? Will be also bear in mind that an hon. Member opposite and myself saw the Foreign Secretary last night and we came away with the impression that he was not telling us the truth—
Hon, Members: Oh.
Mr. Speaker: That would be out of order at any time, but on a business question even more so.
Hon. Members: Withdraw.
Mr. W. Yates: I realised when I made that statement that it was not in accord with Parliamentary custom and therefore, I must withdraw it. Last night, however, when we were present, the hon. Member opposite and I had the impression that there was equivocation. We could not get a proper answer. [HON. MEMBERS: "Withdraw."] Very well, I will describe it as a terminological inexactitude. Will the Leader of the House consider having a debate when one of Her Majesty's legations is to be closed without the House even being asked to discuss it?
Mr. Macleod: No, Sir. Whatever euphemisms my hon. Friend chooses to use, what he has said in the House about my noble Friend the Foreign Secretary is a disgraceful statement which he should not have made.
Mr. G. Thomas: In view of the demonstration held here yesterday, when 800 railwaymen and miners from South Wales came to protest about the insecurity of their life due to the railway and pit closures, may I ask when we are likely to have a debate on economic life in Wales?
Mr. Macleod: I cannot see an immediate opportunity for that, unless, of course, it comes on a Supply day.
Sir W. Teeling: Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that we all still want a debate, if possible, on Malta, preferably before the Commonwealth Relations and Colonial Secretary comes back in four weeks' time?
Mr. Macleod: I am not clear why my hon. Friend wants the debate before my right hon. Friend returns. I should have thought that the first thing hon. Members would wish to do would be to study the papers which are now in the Vote Office. If it is appropriate, we could then have discussions through the usual channels.
Mr. J. Griffiths: Reverting to the question raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, West (Mr. G. Thomas), may I ask the Leader of the House whether the Minister of Transport is shortly to make a statement about the future of rural transport? Will the Minister bear in mind how essential it is for an early statement to be made and for us to have a debate in view of the fact that there are rumours which, in places like South Wales, have an adverse effect upon industrial development?
Mr. Macleod: There is certainly no immediate likelihood of that. It is known that the Government are to receive a report in some weeks' time and, naturally, a statement will be made by the Minister of Transport, but this is in no sense immediate.
Lieut.-Colonel Cordeaux: In view of the really shocking statement to which we have just had to listen from the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations and Secretary of State for the Colonies, may I reinforce the question asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Sir W. Teeling), that we should have a debate on Malta as soon as the right hon. Gentleman returns?
Mr. Driberg: Does the Leader of the House seriously suggest that the important Criminal Justice (Scotland) Bill will finish before ten o'clock on Thursday, and that ten o'clock on a Thursday night, after a Scottish day, is a very convenient time for the majority of Members? Is he aware that there are strong feelings about the Prison Commissioners Dissolution Order, on both sides of the House—both

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in support of and against it—and that it ought to be debated at a reasonable time, perhaps not next week but the week after?
Mr. Macleod: I am very conscious of feelings in this matter and quite ready to respond to them. I think that we had better leave it, as it were, on the Order Paper and see on Thursday how we get on.
Mr. J. Wells: Further to the point about the Prison Commissioners Order, we have not had a proper debate on prisons since 26th July, 1960, when the hon. Member for Brixton (Mr. Lipton) raised the matter after midnight on the Consolidated Fund Bill, and my hon, Friend the Member for Solihull (Sir M, Lindsay) intervened. It is time there was a general debate on the present prison situation. Would my right hon. Friend undertake to discuss the timing of this, in addition to through the usual channels, with hon. Members on both sides of the House who have prisons in their constituencies and are interested in this subject?
Mr. Macleod: I am always ready to receive representations and discuss the business of the House with those hon. Members who are not covered by the phrase "the usual channels". I have taken the point that is made for next Thursday. We will see how the business goes.
Mr. A. Lewis: Reverting to the questions which have been put concerning the closing of railway workshops in Wales, which also affect London, is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the London Members, as always very generous, are anxious that there should be a debate on this and would quite willingly offer to him next Wednesday, because none of us wants the London Government Bill? That would give adequate time to discuss this matter. As no one wants that Bill, would he consider giving the time to my right hon. and hon. Friends?
Mr. Macleod: No, Sir. But there would be an alternative method of procedure. There are, of course, several Supply days coming along, and as soon as the Opposition have decided who their Leader is to be they could press these claims on him.
Mr. Farey-Jones: May I ask the Leader of the House whether, in view of the importance of this subject to the future prosperity of these islands, he would set aside a day in the immediate future in which the House could debate the provision of a wholly-owned British satellite telecommunications system, coordinated within the Commonwealth? In view of an occurrence only a few hours ago, would he give it his favourable consideration as neither time nor space is on our side?
Mr. Macleod: I will, of course, give it consideration. But I cannot promise that it will be favourable.
Mr. Ross: The Scottish business for next Thursday has been twice postponed and it would be fair to make the House aware of the fact that the last time it was postponed was because a full day for debate was not available. In view of the importance and interest aroused by this Bill on both sides of the House, has the right hon. Gentleman given consideration to suspending the Standing Order for an hour next Thursday night?
Mr. D. Smith: In view of the two well-supported Motions on the Order Paper in connection with the distribution of the rate burden, would my right hon. Friend consider giving time for just a small debate on this very pressing problem, in view of the great anxieties of many ratepayers at present?
[That this House, approving the Government's policy of expanding the social, public and educational services, in which programme the local authorities have an important rôle, but having regard to the fact that the share of the financial burden falling upon all categories of ratepayers is absorbing an ever increasing proportion of the national wealth, urges Her Majesty's Government to assume additional financial responsibility for certain local authority services which are now more national than local in character; and, whilst reaffirming its confidence in the rating system, urges Her Majesty's Government to set up a central Advisory Rating Committee through which the technical aspects of this system would be kept constantly under review.]
[That this House, conscious of the necessary changes under the rating revaluation of premises due to come into

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force in April, 1963, believes that the time has now arrived for the rate burden to be spread more fairly amongst all citizens, for the financing of education to be transferred, by stages, to the national Exchequer, whilst retaining local control, and for a full inquiry into possible new methods of raising revenue for local government services.]
Mr. Macleod: I have studied those Motions, but cannot see any immediate prospect.
Mr. Boyden: In view of the threat made by my hon. Friend the Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Ross), together with the promises made by the Under-Secretary of State during the Committee stage of the Criminal Justice Bill for England and Wales, is it not a very poor outlook for future discussions on prisons if the main body which is concerned with prisons is to be dealt with in such an arbitrary fashion?
Mr. Macleod: The House can take it that I am entirely sympathetic to this point of view. Of course I will take this into account. I would not wish this business to come on at an unreasonable time.
Mr. Warbey: Would the right hon. Gentleman give time in the near future for a debate on the decline in employment opportunities in the Midlands, taking into account the effect of technological changes and also the decline of certain industries, such as the hosiery industry, on which the prosperity of the Midlands has hitherto depended?
Mr. Macleod: I think that that would be appropriate for a Supply day, but I cannot give Government time for it.
Mr. Monslow: Having regard to the general economic decline, would not the Government consider giving a day of their own time to debate this important problem?
Mr. Macleod: I am not sure whether the hon. Member refers to the point which was immediately raised. I should have thought a considerable number of days are taken from those in which the Government have the initiative in deciding business, and that it is also appropriate
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that a number should come from the allocation of time for which the Opposition have the initiative.
Mr. Driberg: While we are grateful for the concession which the right hon. Gentleman has hinted at, could he say—since it is evident that Scottish business is going to run till ten o'clock on Thursday night—that he will make another announcement about this Order on Monday or Tuesday?
Mr. Macleod: If I decided to remove this from the Order Paper I would make another short announcement.
Mr. Hector Hughes: May I refer to the unanswered question raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Ross) about the Criminal Justice (Scotland) Bill—a very important Bill which has been buffeted about from day to day and from week to week? Will the Leader of the House give time for the completion of that Bill next Thursday instead of cutting it off at ten o'clock?
Mr. Macleod: This Bill comes up on Thursday. I could, of course, consider whether it would meet the convenience of Scottish Members if we suspended the Standing Order until, say, midnight of that night.
Mr. Gibson-Watt: Is my hon. Friend aware of the fact that the hon. and learned Member for Aberdeen, North (Mr. Hector Hughes) was in some danger of being sold for £63,000 last week? Therefore, could we possibly find time for a debate on livestock exports, which are so important to this country?
Mr. Macleod: No, I cannot see any particular time for that, but I should have thought that in the varied business I have announced for Tuesday a little ingenuity could have made the point there.
Mr. Scholefield Allen: Would it not assist the Leader of the House if he withdrew altogether the order for the assassination of the Prison Commissioners?
Mr. Speaker: That is too murderous for business questions!

ORDERS OF THE DAY

  CONTRACTS OF EMPLOYMENT BILL
  Order for Second Reading read.
  The Minister of Labour (Mr. John Hare): I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.
  The objects of the Bill are, first, to lay down minimum periods of notice to terminate employment, and, secondly, to require employers to give their employees written statements about the main terms of their contracts of employment.
  The Bill is a part of the Government's plans to provide greater security for workers. This is a time when industry must be quick to adopt improved methods and exploit new techniques if we are to expand our production and maintain our competitive position. We must accept that as part of this process there must be changes in the pattern of employment as some firms and industries decline and others expand. We must be prepared for the social implications of all this. All of us in the House are at the moment immediately concerned with unemployment and the need for a higher level of economic activity and employment throughout the country. particularly in the most seriously affected areas. But at all times there will be changes in employment which are bound to affect the personal lives of thousands of our fellow citizens.
  In a large and expanding firm workers no longer needed in one job can often be transferred to another. Managements most certainly have a duty to do this whenever it is possible. But when a man has to find a new job, this means only too often a serious dislocation of his personal life. It may mean moving home. But, worst of all, a man's skill, his main asset, may turn out to be unwanted. This is when people need all the help and consideration that they can be given. We should not and cannot buy progress at the expense of the individual.
  As I said in the debate on unemployment the other day, the fear of change and what it can mean is a powerful incentive to resist change and slow it
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  down by all possible means. But if we reduce that fear and give proper consideration and effective help, we can help, I think, to create an atmosphere in which the need for change is accepted and there is co-operation in creating an efficient and flexible economy. The problem of security—of helping the worker to face change with confidence—is basic to our industrial efficiency.
  The Contracts of Employment Bill is one step in the Government's policy to meet this problem of security, and should like to set it in that context.
  We have already published proposals for improving arrangements for apprenticeship and other industrial training. These proposals aim not only at revolutionising the training of the young, but at providing far more extensive retraining facilities for the adult either under the arrangements of an industrial training board or by the Government themselves, so that the young and the adult can be given the skill and adaptability which the changing demands of industry call for.
  We also intend to improve arrangements for dealing with redundancy. A study prepared for my National Joint Advisory Council has shown that in the last three years there has been an increase of over 50 per cent, in the number of company redundancy policies and in the number of employees in companies with such policies, but still only about 16 per cent. of workers in manufacturing industries are covered by such schemes.
  We are now all—by that I mean the Government, employers and trade unions—studying what practical steps can best be taken to extend and improve existing arrangements. I do not want to prejudge what will emerge from these discussions, but meanwhile we shall aim to achieve improved arrangements for redundancy by voluntary action, with stimulation and help from the Government. On two matters, however—length of notice and contracts—we now give a lead in the Bill before the House.
  The provisions of the Bill have been criticised by both employers and trade unions. Some people think it goes too far, and others think that it does not go far enough. The British Employers' Confederation has told me that it is its policy to encourage employers to give as

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  long warning as possible of redundancy. It is not in principle opposed to longer notice, but it considers that this is a matter better settled by negotiation than by law. I understand its view. It is consistent with our traditional approach.
  Voluntary methods are fine, but they are fine only if they are effective. Some progress has been made, as I have indicated, on a voluntary basis in recent years, but not nearly enough. I think that The Times made this very clear in its leading article today when it said that a legalistic approach to this carries no one very far, but it has its uses especially when the spontaneous approaches of unions and employers are crowned with only patchy success. For example, a week's notice—I am talking about the slowness with which all this has been happening—became established in industry during or just after the war. But it is still the general rule, and the war ended in 1945. I think that the answer is that we must now make a far more general advance.
  Again, I do not think that we should forget that progress by voluntary negotiation benefits, of course, the organised worker—the trade union member. But there are many millions of employees who are outside the trade unions, not only in industry but in commerce—workers in shops and offices. I submit that the rights of these people are just as important.
  The only way to secure the advance that is needed for everyone is to lay down minimum standards, as we are doing in the Bill. But I repeat that these are minimum standards. The object of the Bill is not only to bring everybody up to the minimum but also to encourage employers to improve on the minimum on a voluntary basis.
  Where this is done, the Bill already makes some allowance for flexibility. Suggestions have been made to me that I should increase the flexibility by enlarging the right of the two parties to contract out of the Bill if they mutually agree to do this. I am prepared to examine the full implications of this and to hear what hon. Members have to say on this during the debate before deciding what I should do. That deals with the employers' criticisms.
  The Trades Union Congress has criticised the Bill, also. Its main point is that it will require the worker as well
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  as the employer to give longer notice. On this, I would say that I think that it is right that if an obligation is imposed on one party to a contract there should be an obligation on the other party. Equal periods of notice at present exist in industry, although they are generally, of course, shorter on both sides than the minimum laid down in the Bill. Equal notice is also quite common in other employments, but there are, I know, many employers who give longer notice to their workers than they ask from their workers. It suits their circumstances, and they think that this is a better arrangement. As I have just said, I shall consider whether I can make the Bill more flexible so as not to cut across policies of this kind.
  Some trade union leaders have also said that the Bill will not be of real benefit to most workers. This is really quite untrue. At present, the great majority of the 15 million manual workers have a right to only a week's notice, no matter how long their service may have been. In some industries they have a right to even less, and can be dismissed virtually with no notice at all. In shops and offices weekly paid staff usually have one week's notice only.
  The unions have also said that in two industries—construction and shipbuilding—very few workers will benefit because they do not continue in employment with one employer for long enough to qualify for the rights given by the Bill. In both these industries workers can be dismissed at less than a day's notice. In my view, the unions underestimate the value of the Bill to the workers in these two industries. In the construction industry there are, I know, substantial numbers who remain in employment with one employer. These employees will obviously benefit under the Bill. So, also, will substantial numbers in the shipbuilding industry.
  But—and I concede this—it is true that in both these industries many men are employed on short-term engagements and will not stay with one employer long enough to qualify for notice under the Bill. It should be possible for employers and unions in these industries to make better provision for notice on a voluntary basis. Indeed, the possibility of longer notice is already being discussed in the building industry. In shipbuilding there are talks going on

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  between the leaders of the employers and the unions, under the chairmanship of an official of my Ministry. The object of these talks is to secure agreement on more efficient use of manpower in return for improved security of employment.
  Clause I of the Bill lays down that when an employee has worked continuously for two years for his employer there should be at least two weeks' notice of termination, and after five years at least four weeks' notice. This applies whether it is the employee or the employer who is giving notice. I must emphasise one important fact here, since there seems to have been some misunderstanding of this provision. The Bill will in no way affect an employer's right of summary dismissal for misconduct. Misconduct can, therefore, lead to the loss of rights which the Bill provides.
  The rules for deciding how long an employee has worked continuously for his employer are set out in the First Schedule. Up to now these matters have been left entirely to the contract, and on some of them the position under existing contracts is in doubt. Now that we are definitely laying down statutory minimum standards, the position must be made clear.
  There are two points on the First Schedule which I particularly want to mention. First, to qualify for rights to notice an employee must work for at least 21 hours a week for his employer—in other words, at least part-time. It is very much a question of judgment where the line should be drawn here. The object is clear—to exclude from the Bill the man or woman who is definitely a casual worker. The Schedule seeks to achieve this by reasoning that if one works part-time or more regularly for an employer for two years, one will in fact come to depend upon one's income from that source. In turn, the employer will come to count on one's service. I know that a number of hon. Members have views on this and I am prepared to consider, at a later stage, fresh ideas, if these also achieve my objective.
  Secondly, the First Schedule lays down rules about the effect of strikes on the period of continuous employment. Any strike before the Bill comes into force
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  will not affect the continuity of employment. After that date, if an employee who is entitled to statutory notice under the Bill does not give a fortnight's notice of a strike, he will forfeit his rights. The same principle applies to the man who has not yet qualified as a long-service employee. If, for example, he is employed under a contract on a week's notice and fails to give a week's notice that he intends to go on strike, he will have to start qualifying for rights again from the beginning.
  It will be clear that what the rules penalise is the irresponsible wild-cat strike. I should have thought that there would be a strong measure of agreement on both sides of the House about this. The Bill imposes fresh responsibilities on employers. They have a right to expect responsible behaviour in return. En a modern society both sides have to accept responsibilities.
  Mr. Charles Pannell: The right lion. Gentleman is speaking about penalties falling on unofficial strikers. Will he indicate why no penalties are to fall on employers for Lock-outs?
  Mr. Hare: Lock-outs are dealt with in the Bill. Probably the hon. Gentleman has not studied that part of it.
  These rules are here to set down how the rights of an employee under the Bill stand if he goes on strike and is taken back into employment at the end of the strike. They do not in any way affect a worker's existing obligation to observe the terms of his contract of employment. They do not in any way affect the employer's rights to decide whether or not to re-engage a striker. They do not alter in the slightest the obligations of workers to observe agreements and procedures for settling disputes arrived at between their unions and the employers.
  I know that some people think that the Bill should go wider and attempt to deal with some of these problems. I am fully conscious of the damage unofficial strikes do to the country. We cannot afford to go on having 2,000 unofficial strikes or more a year. They mean more than lost production. They mean lost exports and great harm, often, to the public. They are—and we all recognise this—a most damaging weakness in the structure of industrial relations.
  Mr. W. R. Rees-Davies: Am I right in saying that, under the Bill, Mr. Charles Doyle and the other so-called unofficial strikers in the electricity industry would none the less still be regarded as working under a continuous period of service, and, therefore, entitled to receive their full period of notice, notwithstanding their recent action?
  Mr. Hare: I wish that I had not given way. The point is that Doyle did not, in fact, go on strike.
  On the question of unofficial strikes, I want to quote what Lord Williamson—then Sir Thomas Williamson—said at the Trades Union Congress in 1959. They were wise and responsible words. He said:
  "The breaking of agreements is bad enough, but the consequences in most cases have been much more serious.
  In some cases whole processes and whole factories have been closed down, and hundreds and thousands of innocent trade unionists, who have had nothing at all to do with the disputes, have been thrown on the streets without wages and often without unemployment benefit.
  Vital production has been lost, orders have been delayed, and it is this action more than anything else which is likely to undermine the economy on which we depend to maintain full employment."
  The most satisfactory way of dealing with all this is for the unions to put their house in order. By an assertion of responsibility and leadership, the unions should see that the agreements which they conclude are honoured. As the House knows, the T.U.C. decided last autumn to review the structure and purpose of the trade union movement. In my submission, that review must be carried out quickly and must dead to reforms. If it fails, then the situation will be serious and we must ask ourselves whether we can afford to let things go on as at present. My view is that we cannot.
  Mr. Richard Marsh Mr. Richard Marsh (Greenwich) rose—
  Mr. Hare: I will give way in a moment.
  Indeed, there is a strong body of public opinion, by no means based on party political lines, which is demanding that the Government should introduce new legislation to protect the public interest. It would be quite wrong to under-estimate how strong this feeling is.
  Mr. Marsh: The right hon. Gentleman is using this occasion to make a lot of angry noises on the subject of industrial relations. Does he honestly believe that the possibility that a group of employees might lose one week of their notice in twenty years' time, when they may decide to leave their present employment, is likely to prevent a sudden strike?
  Mr. Hare: If he is lucky enough to be called in the debate, the hon. Gentleman may make that point in his own speech. I am not making angry noises. I am saying what I think, in all sincerity, to the House.
  Clause 2 deals with rights during notice. This is a vital part of the Bill because the right to notice in itself may mean little if not accompanied by rights during notice. Under the Clause, an employee entitled to notice under the Bill has a right to be paid during notice at a rate calculated on the basis of his average earnings over the past six months.
  The purpose of this Clause is to prevent a worker having to face a serious drop in pay when he has to change jobs. This, as we know, is often a difficult and anxious time for a man to go through. It is surely right, then, that during notice, worry about pay should not be added to other worries. After all, the person we are concerned with here is the worker who has worked steadily for his employer for two years at least and often for longer.
  This provision has also been criticised. The point has been made that a man may be paid more during notice than he earns, as he may have worked overtime in past months and may not be working overtime during his notice. He may be paid more during his notice than workmates who are not being dismissed. His minimum pay during notice may be greater because of bonuses earned in the past which he is not earning during notice. All this is perfectly true. It is difficult to find a formula which will apply fairly over the whole field of employment and give a test which can be used for all. What is clearly essential is that the Bill should ensure that where the contract of employment fixes a wage for a normal week's work, the pay during notice should not fall below this; but when the contract does not fix such a wage there should, in my submission, be a guarantee related to previous earnings.

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  The Clause leaves elbow room for employer and worker to agree on contracts which make different provision for pay during notice if both sides wish. If the contract gives the worker longer notice than the minimum the parties are free to arrive at whatever terms they wish for pay during notice. Even if the notice is not longer they may agree on different arrangements for pay during notice, so long as the worker is to have rights comparable with those in the Clause, or better than them. The employer can also count any severance pay towards the minimum.
  In these ways, the Bill gives the parties room to reach agreements which suit their own needs and circumstances.
  Mr. Frederick Lee: When the right hon. Gentleman uses the expression "the parties" I take it that he means the employer and the person who is employed. Would he agree that it would be far more appropriate if the trade unions concerned had an opportunity to look at the terms of the contract laid down by the employer and if such a contract were not valid unless the appropriate trade union accepted the wording of it?
  Mr. Hare: The hon. Gentleman is quite right that the contract is between the employer and the individual worker, but if the worker is a member of a trade union he will be advised and guided by his own trade union representatives.
  Clause 4 of the Bill requires employers to set down in writing the main terms of the contract of employment not later than five weeks after the worker starts work. The terms to be covered are: pay, hours of work, holidays and holiday pay, sickness and sick pay, pension rights and length of notice. The Bill does not deal with the substance of these matters, apart from length of notice. It does not mean that terms under all these headings have to be included in the contract. The employer is at liberty to state that no terms exist on, say, pensions, if there are no pension arrangements.
  None the less, this is an important requirement. It gives the worker for the first time a right to a clear understanding of the terms upon which he is employed. He will know as an individual where he stands, and should any question arise over the terms on which he works he
  1512
  will have definite evidence which can be used in a court of law. Also, he has a right to have the terms of his contract which affect him most closely set down in black and white.
  I know that this requirement will be criticised as meaning more paperwork. I have tried to reduce this to a minimum. Employers will be able to refer employees to documents, such as collective agreements, which are made reasonably accessible to them. Employers should be able to use pay slips to notify changes in the terms, at least to show changes in the rates of pay. We may be able to make the rules simpler in Committee and I should welcome any alteration in this direction which is not contrary to the principle that the workers' rights and obligations should be clear and in writing.
  These are the main provisions of the Bill. It has been suggested that it will harm industrial relations. I entirely reject that view. It is realty ostrich-like for people to pretend that all is well with our present arrangements for terminating employment. In firms in differing industries throughout the land long-service employees can be "chucked out" at an hour, a day, or a week's, notice, however faithfully they may have served their employer. The Government, for the first time, are intervening in contracts between employers and workers, thus benefiting many millions of workers in factories, farms, offices and shops. For this reason, I commend the Bill to the House.
  4.35 p.m.
  Mr. Ray Gunter: From the opening remarks of the Minister one would imagine that we were to have a bold, imaginative Bill. I do not think there is any dispute between the two sides on what he said in opening the debate. Of course, we want security for our workers. Of course, we want to bring into the present situation, where there is so much change, a real sense of security so that the workpeople will be properly treated. Our fear is that the Bill will not achieve this object. Whatever the right hon. Gentleman may say, it will raise difficulties within industry which may cause even more unrest. That is not to say that either the Trades Union Congress, the British Employers' Confederation or this House dispute any of the good intentions of the Minister.

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  These suspicions and doubts of the British Employers' Confederation, of the Trades Union Congress and of Her Majesty's Opposition all arise from the same cause: the belief that this Bill has been drafted without due and proper attention to some of the nuances and influences that affect the working lives of our people; in other words, there has been revealed an absence of an intimate knowledge of what really makes men "tick over" on the workshop floor and what their relationship with management should be.
  The Minister surprised me on 4th February when he hold me in the House that because the employers and the Trades Union Congress were both suspicious or contemptuous of the Bill it was therefore bound to be right. I assure him that the reason why the employers and the trade unions have arrived at some of their conclusions—and they are similar—is because of their doubts about certain of the provisions of the Bill. The introduction of this Bill at this time is bound to give rise to some suspicion. The Workers' Charter has been heralded since 1947. It arose originally, if I remember rightly, because of a reassessment of Conservative Party politics following the Labour victory in 1945. The Conservative Party then decided that it was expedient that they should appear more attractive, more desirable, in the eyes of the working classes. Many things have happened since 1947. I believe that nearly every Minister of Labour during the past ten years has had a look at the Workers' Charter, but nothing has happened until this year, perhaps the year of a General Election, when it has been found expedient to drag it out again.
  We are bound to express our disappointment at the nature of this Bill. We would have hoped that, in the circumstances outlined by the Minister at the beginning of his speech, when he spoke of the necessity to get a new spirit into industry, to remove fear and to adjust ourselves to a changing world, there would have been a bold, imaginative Bill brought forward to deal with the real problems that affect us. The Minister said that 15 million workers may be affected by this Bill. I doubt whether more than 5 million will be affected by it. Even the Minister's good friend the Economist says that at least half the labour force of the civil engineering and
  1514
  building industries will not be affected by this Bill. Shipbuilding repairs will still be on a casual basis. I suggest to the Minister that he should not be too bold in saying that this Bill embraces the vast body of British workers. I do not think that it does.
  I think that he should by some means or other have brought within the scope of this Bill those people in the greatest need of security—those who, because of the nature of their work, cannot remain with one employer for more than two years. We know of the great building projects which are carried out. They are completed in three stages. One section of workers is used for the first year, another section for the next year, and so on. The people who suffer most from insecurity will not be affected by this Bill.
  I turn now to the more important point, the minimum period of notice. Of course, we want our workers to have as much notice as possible. This has been the basic argument of trade union negotiations for a long time. I do not think that there is one Member who would not shrink from the thought of a man being turned out at a day's or two days' notice, but in this Bill it is assumed that there can be equality of bargaining between the employer and the employee. This is just not so. The employee's position is always so much weaker than the employer's. To the ordinary workman, departure from his job because of circumstances beyond his control is almost a major disaster. To him it is a social and economic disaster. The dismissal of an employee may be hurtful to the employer as a man, but it does not greatly inconvenience him. He does not suffer the same sort of crisis as the dismissed workman experiences. We therefore cannot understand—and I hope the Minister will deal with this—why an employee should be required to give the same amount of notice as the employer.
  Mr. William Shepherd: The hon. Gentleman is making a point of some substance. Would not he agree that in those cases where workers are organised, the organised bargaining power of the workers is at least comparable with, and sometimes greater than, that of the employer?
  Mr. Gunter: We are dealing with a contract which the Minister has said is

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  between the employer and the employee, and I am dealing with the terms of this Bill. I believe that it is wrong to assume that there can be this equality. The effect on an individual when he is dismissed is quite different from the effect on an employer.
  Suppose a fellow knows that short-time working is just around the corner and that in a month or two he will find himself in serious difficulties. Being a good citizen and wanting to look after his family, he looks for a job in another factory where there is a vacancy. Is it to be held that the bad employer can say to him, "It is not convenient for you to go within a week. You will have to stay for a month because you have been on my payroll for more than five years"? The good employer would not do that.
  Mr. F. A. Burden: This is very interesting, but if a factory is slack and there are workers who are not fully engaged and there is no real opportunity of their being engaged in the near future, the owners have to consider allowing men to go, and in the circumstances would almost inevitably release them as quickly as possible and cut their losses.
  Mr. Gunter: I trust that the hon. Gentleman is fully aware of the fact that a bad employer, if it was not convenient at that moment to let the men go, would not do so. Suppose one of the industrialists on the benches opposite were in this position. A young fellow, having worked under him for five or six years, said, "Look guv'nor, there is a chance of a job across the road with promotion and better money". Would he ask for six months notice? Of course not. Men do not operate like that. If he were a good employer he would say, "On your way and get the better job". I therefore submit to the Minister that he should consider further this assumption that there should be equality in the termination of employment. It may be that employers will do a bit of forward planning and give a man notice three weeks before they would otherwise have done. I do not know whether the individual will in fact be better off in the end, but these factors have to be taken into consideration.
  There is something of a tragedy in Clause 2. The right hon. Gentleman rightly said that there has been a move
  1516
  in many quarters to face the problem of a man being thrown out of work after years of faithful service. I pay this tribute to the best employers. Some people think that we always quarrel with employers. We do not. We appreciate the good employer as much as anyone else does. There has been a move by good employers to appreciate the inhuman treatment that used to be meted out to workmen. The Minister is right in saying that we have not made the progress we should have made, and we have not made the progress they have made on the Continent, but nevertheless there have been indications that the trade unions and good employers were coming together on this matter.
  I welcome the signs of good employers being prepared to negotiate progressive pay agreements, but there are still a lot of bad employers, and what worries me about this is that four weeks after the five years will be regarded as satisfactory payment for the man who has done 35 years with a firm. It may be said by some firms that the law lays it down that after five years' service it is fair and reasonable to give a man four weeks' notice and four weeks' pay, but we know that that is unsatisfactory. I submit to the Minister that it would have been far better to accept the Redundant Workers (Severance Pay) Bill promoted by my hon. Friend the Member for Gloucester (Mr. Diamond) and deal with this problem in a reasonable way.
  I do not know what some of the managers and industrialists on the benches opposite think of Clause 2 (3), which says that a man shall not qualify for pay unless he does a reasonable amount of work. This is bound to give rise to argument if during the period of notice somebody has to judge what is a reasonable amount of work. This is what most of our rows are about. A man can be dismissed—and there is no appeal against it—if the management decides that he has not done what it considers to be a reasonable amount of work.
  I think that it is a good idea to provide particulars of employment. I do not know that it will help anybody a great deal, because most of the boys whom I know learnt the terms of their employment when they started. They did not have to wait. I cannot understand

  1517
  why they should have to wait for five weeks under the Bill. I would have thought that on the day a person commenced employment he would be told the facts of life. I hope that the Minister will reflect upon that point.
  I now turn to the part of the Bill that moved the Minister to a flow of oratory. In view of what he said, we gather that the Bill would not have been introduced at this time—and many people were astonished that it was introduced—if it had not been for the pressure of Conservative back benchers demanding some Government action on unofficial strikes. I do not know whether the curious way in which the Minister has sought to relate strikes with continuous employment satisfies hon. Members opposite, but I cannot believe that the provisions of the Bill will do anything to eliminate the causes of industrial unrest, or bring greater discipline into industry.
  We can seek to punish men for alleged indiscipline, but unless both sides of industry are really in earnest in their endeavour to find the causes of indiscipline we shall not get very far. We are dealing with Britishers, and when they feel a bitter sense of injustice they sometimes do daft things. The real task is to find the causes that underlie indiscipline.
  I agree with the right hon. Gentleman that there are obvious cases in which tiny handfuls of evil men who are given authority over their workmates are incapable of bearing that authority. I also agree that sometimes their motives require them to have a passion for disruption and disorganisation. They are not interested in the well-being of the country, or the working class which they claim to represent. Trade unions have a tremendous responsibility in this respect. It is their duty to impose control, and if they will not or cannot they deserve all the public criticism that falls upon them.
  But I want to put this matter in perspective. The people of whom I am talking form a tiny handful of men. The vast majority of shop stewards—that much-maligned body—do a magnificent job for the country. Many leading employers will testify that the wheels of industry could not be kept going without the devoted and often voluntary work of these men, who ease out the tensions of day-to-day life in industry. It would be a tragedy if the idea
  1518
  that is now prevalent, that every shop steward is some sort of devil, really got hold of the country. Thousands of them are essential to the well-being of the country. I do not dispute the necessity for discipline, or the requirement now placed upon the trade union movement in this matter. The Minister is quite right; if the trade unions do not face this problem there is trouble ahead.
  But it is a fascinating study to try to find out why certain great works can live in comparative peace and amity while others in the same industry are in continual turmoil. Why is this? I never find any joy in saying, The management are to blame", or "The shop stewards are to blame". We act like a lot of kids when we say that; but we must agree that in many of these great shops it is possible to see, graphically, whether the management is good or bad.
  Mr. Harold Gurden: Will the hon. Gentleman tell us what sort of Clause he would put into the Bill to cure these problems—about which we agree with him so much?
  Mr. Gunter: If the hon. Member does not mind, I will make my own speech. Perhaps on an appropriate occasion at the time of the next General Election I will answer that question.
  Bad industrial relations occur in works where the lower levels of management are not properly selected. Some of our great firms give first priority to the training and selection of the lower levels of management—the supervisory grades, the foreman and the charge hands. Further, the good firms see that these men get their proper rewards. But the Minister knows of other firms—and he is dealing with them now, so I had better be careful—where the suitability of a man to exercise supervision does not really count; what counts is his capacity to get workmen to stand up to a given norm every day. There is something more in the leadership of men than just driving them, and the best relationships, and the best workshops, exist where the lower level of management is carefully trained and selected. When that is done the firm gets understanding from the men.
  Furthermore, in some of our great factories and workshops the channels of communication from the top to the bottom are always clear; the directives are precise, and the men know what they

  1519
  are doing. The management always has its ear to the ground to detect the rumble. But in other workshops that is not the situation. Before we indict shop stewards we must indict certain managements. Certain areas of management in our industry are as much to blame as are the undisciplined shop stewards, or the workmen on the floor.
  Mr. Philip N. Hocking: I take it that the hon. Member is referring to the motor car industry in some of the things he is saying. Is it not a fact that those companies with more settled labour relations are situated in districts where the population is stable? There are parts of the country where the population is constantly moving. It seems significant to me that in those parts where there are constant troubles on the shop floor there is also a restless population. This is certainly true of the motor car industry.
  Mr. Gunter: I do not know whether the population is more on the move in Dagenham than it is in the Midlands, and I should hesitate before being drawn into any argument whether there was more original sin in Dagenham than in Luton. All I am saying is that in this matter management must bear its responsibility.
  There is another factor to be considered. Small groups of key workers can hold our economic life to ransom. This will become increasingly the case. Just as I resent the concentration of power in the board rooms of the City of London, whereby they are enabled to determine the economic life of the country, so I resent the abuse of power by any small body of key workers. This is one of the great factors that the trade unions must dwell on.
  Our concern here is with the overall picture of industrial relations and the necessity to sweeten them. I often feel that we do not give enough attention to the intangibles that affect industrial relations. I wonder whether it is generally appreciated that the danger of industrial unrest in these modern, disinfected, chromium-plated, automated factories is as great as it was in the time of Dickens, if not greater. Work in these factories is a wearisome thing for a man. No person can walk through an automated factory today and see men
  1520
  doing the same thing, minute after minute, hour after hour, and day after day, without wondering what those men are feeling and what effect their work is having upon them.
  May I dare to confess that when I was in one of the great motor factories of Germany watching these men doing these dreadful repetitive jobs I reflected that when the psalmist sang that God had made man only a little lower than the angels he was not thinking of men who have to live and work in the automated factories of the 1960s. This is the atmosphere which gives rise to unrest, frustration and weariness. It is the sort of atmosphere which can make a man undisciplined. Hon. Members opposite have jibed at the tea break. Do they appreciate the importance of the tea break as one of the occasions when a man can escape for ten minutes or more from doing the same thing? The tea break becomes a matter of vital importance to him because it gives him an opportunity to get away from a dreadful repetitive task which must be wearing to his spirit.
  I know that the Minister has given careful thought to this, and I should like to ask him whether he really believes that in the end he can legislate for the impatience, irritation and weariness of spirit that arises from the carrying out of the repetitive processes connected with automation. I may be wrong, and I do not propose to be dogmatic about it, but I have the feeling that it is within industry that these things will have to find their outlet; that they will be solved by education and patience. I am not arguing that some legislation may not be necessary to deal with issues when the State itself is endangered by the activities of men who are undisciplined. But I believe, and I say this sincerely to the Minister, that his unceasing and very sincere efforts over the last few years to bring both sides of industry together, industry by industry, may have a far greater effect than any of the provisions in this Bill. I am, therefore, a little sorry that the Minister has seen fit to introduce this Measure.
  What does it do? It provides that workers who are required to give a fortnight or more notice of termination of employment must give a fortnight's notice of a strike. Those who are entitled to a week's notice, but less than

  1521
  a fortnight, must give a week's notice of a strike, and those who are entitled to less than a week's notice are not required by the provisions in this Bill to give any notice at all. The penalty for failing to give notice of a strike is the loss of continuity of employment and, therefore, the loss of the right to extended notice of termination of employment. That is a right situation to be in, is it not?
  Members of the same section working at the same plant could be in different categories and such distinctions could not be maintained. If there came a time when there was a failure to settle a wage argument and strike notices had to be given in, do hon. Members think that the general secretary or the executive of a union would be placed in that position? Of course not. The Minister knows the answer to that one as well as I do. The employers know the answer. As soon as any big union becomes involved in a pay claim with a great industry the union puts in strike notices a month ahead. The employers consider that a pure formality, and if the negotiations go on it is extended week by week; so that at any given moment these three categories of employees become one category, and the executive of the union would have complete control over them for one or two weeks' notice or whatever might be required to be given.
  I do not know what the Minister really thinks trade unions would do on this issue. In the event of unofficial action, does the right hon. Gentleman think that in the heat of a row, in the middle of a shift, workers will sit down and gravely consider their "continuity of employment"? They may consider that when the row is over and they are back at work and peace has been restored. Then they will say that there should be no victimisation. And, of course, employers know that now and again there is bound to be trouble and that men will get into a temper. Do hon. Members think that employers will really insist that a man shall lose his continuity of employment? No. There will be no victimisation. Employers and employed will say, "We are back at work again, let us get on with the job". If this happens a few times in industry the provisions of the Bill become valueless.
  I am of the opinion that a Bill of this kind can be of little assistance. The
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  blunt fact is that the unions must equip themselves to be able to deal with conditions in the 1960s. They must assert their authority and enforce discipline over the membership. The employers must respond. It is easy to attack every stoppage as being Communist-inspired. I sometimes wonder about certain of the tendencies of extremist employers. We have cases where employers certainly give the appearance—I do not go further than that—of having Fascist tendencies, as distinct from shop stewards with Communist tendencies.
  I should like to quote a case which actually happened and which is within the knowledge of the Minister. It is the kind of case which one could hardly believe would happen in this enlightened age and in the circumstances under which the Minister is introducing this Bill. There was a young man with a dependent mother—I will give his name, Mr. Roy Saich—who was employed by the General Life Assurance Company of Grosvenor Place. At a quarter to five on Friday, 9th November of last year, he was called into the office and given his notice with a month's pay. In his bewilderment he asked why. He was told, "There is no reason to give you any reason why. Your services are not required". The young man went. He was thrown out and his employers refused to give any reason. He went to his departmental chief, but he had not been consulted. The young man was thrown out and the Guild of Insurance Officials asked to see the management. They were adamantly and arrogantly refused any right to see the management in order to establish why the young man had had the sack.
  The Minister had the courtesy, in response to a request, to send his officials to see this firm. But his officials were met with a refusal. The firm simply said that it was not because the man had anything to do with the Guild of Insurance Officials. But they would give no reason at all why this young man had been thrown out on his neck. If a firm can do that, if employers can do that, who is being the most bloody-minded? The shop stewards at Fords or the management of the General Life Assurance Company?
  Mr. W. A. Wilkins: That incident is being repeated a hundred times.
  Mr. Gunter: I submit that when we are considering this matter it is a question for management and trade unions. If the Government have any real intention of genuinely giving security to the workers—that is a matter which deserves first priority in these days of redundancy and change—the Minister should have brought in a Bill dealing with these matters in a bold fashion, dealing with the real problems which are emerging. I am talking of severance pay, unemployment benefit, housing, regional employment, education—these are the vital things that ought to have been considered in an imaginative Measure designed to deal with the circumstances of these days.
  We do not propose to divide the House on the Second Reading of the Bill. We shall try to the best of our ability to do something of a major character during the Committee stage discussions. From the hints which the Minister gave in his speech and the rumours we have heard, because he said that he will be "flexible" three times, I am hoping that we can get some meat on to this little skeleton of a Bill during the Committee stage discussions. If not, we shall reserve our right to reconsider our attitude at the last stages of the Bill.
  5.10 p.m.
  Mr. Arthur Jones (Northants, South): I was elected to this House at one of the by-elections which took place in November. I rise to speak on the occasion of this important debate with a feeling of inadequacy not only to the occasion but to the important subject which is under discussion. However, it is comforting to know of the indulgence which hon. Members grant to those who are making their maiden speeches.
  I am honoured to represent the constituency of South Northamptonshire, a large rural area of open rolling country lying between the great conurbations of London to the south and the Midlands to the north. The constituency has changed very little down the centuries. We still have our compact villages tucked away in the countryside, and our towns have, in the main, escaped the rapid expansion which has led to problems in so many parts of the country. Those who work outside the constituency find in the delightful countryside more than adequate compensation for a daily journey to factory and office, making their homes in the
  1524
  ironstone and sandstone cottages and properties which harmonise so well with the rural scene.
  My constituency has been represented in this House by men who have been called to high office, both here and in another place. Captain Fitzroy, whom senior Members of the House will remember, was elected in 1900 and was Speaker for no less than fifteen years from 1928. He was followed by Lord Dilhorne, known to hon. Members as Sir Reginald Manningham-Buller, my immediate predecessor, who made his maiden speech on Midsummer Day 1943 and continued his public service in one of the great offices of State. People in Northamptonshire are proud to have had such distinguished Members.
  It is in the main a farming community. We have some small towns, but this is cattle and sheep rearing country. Good pastures provide early maturity, and there are excellent markets in and near the constituency to which buyers come from near and far, both from home and abroad. The farming community, accustomed to changing circumstances, man-made and otherwise, are having a particularly hard winter. Feeding stuffs, last summer difficult to harvest, are now difficult to get out to the cattle in the bitter weather of the past few weeks. However, the steadiness of purpose which characterises those who live by the soil will see us through until the season changes and the land is workable again.
  We are, however beginning to feel the impact of industrialisation and the mobility of population. To the north, the industrial Midland area is spilling over into Daventry, where new industries are being established and families brought in to man them. At the same time, they are providing work places for many local men and women.
  I hope that the planning authorities will see to it that factory premises are carefully sited and that residential development will take place, not only on new estates, but on sites made available by demolition of out-moded and worn-out properties. Redevelopment provides an opportunity to ensure that we do not allow our town and village centres to deteriorate and that land available there is used to the best advantage. Such a policy

  1525
  would also lead to economies in land use, the preservation of agricultural land and the rural scene.
  There are but a few large factories in my constituency. The smaller companies, representing a wide variety of employment, enjoy the personal relationships and understandings which are happily invariably present where owners and managers are in close touch with their employees. In farming, where such revolutions in husbandry have occurred, teamwork is essential to success. Here we have no experience of demarcation disputes, despite the great adjustments inevitably associated with a reduction in the labour force of 22 per cent. over the past eight years and an increase in productivity showing an average of 5 per cent. per year. This splendid achievement on the part of the agricultural industry has been made possible by a readiness to adapt and improve, aided by the ingenuity of our engineers and scientists, who have been prolific in their ideas, which farmers have been ready to put to good use.
  Good relationships in industry are vital to our economic welfare, and it is for that reason that I welcome the Bill. Its proposals provide for increased community of interest and set out to establish a personal link between management and labour, with emphasis on mutual advantages, which are an essential to any satisfactory relationship. It is to be hoped that its effectiveness will benefit not only those whom it enjoins but our economic life in the broadest sense.
  Industrial relations is one of our great problems, and efforts to improve them must be in the forefront of our endeavours to increase productivity and ensure our competitive position in world markets. The challenge is clear for all to see, and without success in this field the outlook is bleak indeed. Scientific and technical advances must be readily implemented and utilised to the full under sound management, with labour willing and anxious to secure the higher productivity which can be achieved. Men must be ready to accept the new tools which enable a job to be done more efficiently, and learn the new skills which changing methods demand.
  We live in times of great change, and the speed at which changes take place
  1526
  seems to quicken year by year. We must grasp every opportunity, if we are to maintain our place in the world. We still have to find ways and means by which to overcome the reluctance which exists in many fields to the adoption of more effective industrial methods. These may be unacceptable perhaps because they lead to a lessening of the labour content or because of the fear that men have of working themselves out of a job.
  It is in those industries where increased efficiency is so necessary that this situation is most likely to occur. Falling demands lead mean to spread out the work, thereby adversely affecting costs, in turn making the industry less competitive. This is a vicious circle, particularly so where we find ourselves up against vigorous overseas competition.
  Conditions must be created in which those prepared to give a good day's work for a fair day's pay shall enjoy continuity of employment. However, it must be accepted that from time to time men may have to change their jobs as conditions vary from one industry to another. Where changes are necessary, they must be effected with the minimum loss of income. If new skills need to be acquired, retraining facilities must be readily available. In this context lie the questions of unemployment and sickness benefits, redundancy, industrial retraining and apprenticeship schemes, mobility, and housing. But this is not the occasion for me to give my views on these important issues.
  The Bill breaks new ground and is a step forward—a hesitant one, perhaps—in the relationship between management and worker. The law plays little part in industrial relations, negotiations on terms and conditions settled between management and unions, often appearing to be on a horse-trading basis. There appears to be no overall consideration based on productivity and the necessity to keep our prices competitive.
  A recent report published by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development deals with the United Kingdom's balance of payments difficulties, rising costs and prices. It states:
  "The United Kingdom is a striking example of a country which was caught in a sort of vicious circle; a low growth rate made it difficult to avoid prices being pushed up by

  1527
  rising, money incomes; higher prices further weakened the competitive position and intensified balance of payments difficulties; and these developments made periodic restriction of demand unavoidable, which further interfered with growth."
  The events of the past few weeks emphasise the necessity for an all-out effort in the industrial and economic spheres. Success or continuing indifference will undoubtedly determine our position on the world stage and the rôle we are to play in the years ahead. We need long-term agreements between industry and the unions, taking into account the difficulties of our present circumstances.
  Settlements of hours and wages must have regard to potential productivity and be related throughout industry and commerce so to minimise what we have experienced hitherto, namely, the escalating of wages, one award being used as justification for increases elsewhere. Hitherto our efforts have been ineffective. Throughout the country there is growing concern over the incidence of wildcat strikes and unofficial action by a handful of union members and officials. Industries are so interdependent these days that such actions have far-reaching effects and the present incidence is undoubtedly leading to a serious loss of output and productivity, a state of affairs which must not be permitted to continue.
  The application of new techniques and the acquisition of fresh skills are not, perhaps, to be limited to industrial processes. In our present discontent it may be necessary for new methods to be tried in industrial relations. Management and unions have obligations to the nation, their employees and to themselves. They have far reaching responsibilities and our economic salvation is primarily in their hands. Their duty is clear.
  5.24 p.m.
  Mr. John Diamond: The hon. Member for Northants, South (Mr. Arthur Jones), who has just made a most admirable maiden speech, delivered, if I may say so, in a most impeccable manner, started by referring modestly—in the modest way we find acceptable in a maiden speech—to his fear about his own adequacy for the task he was undertaking. He should have had no such fear.
  1528
  Indeed, the boot is entirely on the other foot. Every hon. Member who has the great and welcome opportunity of congratulating a new hon. Member on his maiden speech recognises that we are totally inadequate to pay the full tribute and welcome one would wish to pay to a new hon. Member coming here.
  The hon. Member referred to the distinction of his predecessors and, for a moment, I thought that he was getting near the lines of controversiality when he referred not to a previous Speaker of the House but to someone we know a little better—and the hon. Member described the great ability of the present Lord Chancellor. But he did not overdo it. The hon. Member for Northants, South should have no hesitation about following his two distinguished predecessors. He is a very distinguished hon. Member himself already, for it is a matter of considerable distinction these days to see a new hon. Member on the benches opposite. I congratulate him on the knowledge of his constituency which he demonstrated in the earlier part of his speech and on his wise and careful approach to these problems. I also congratulate him on the objectives to which he referred and which, I think, I share with him. There may be some difficulty about the exact way they should be achieved but I think that my hon. Friends would certainly subscribe to those objectives. I can say with absolute sincerity that we enjoyed the hon. Member's speech.
  I cannot claim to have been in the House since 1900, when Captain Fitzroy first came here, but I am feeling quite definitely one of the older hon. Members these days. Indeed, a new hon. Member's speech, not only for its content, gives us an opportunity to learn something of the personality of the speaker. When we listened to the speech of the hon. Member for Northants, South his personality was revealed and, for those twin reasons, we look forward to hearing him again and, as I have said, we welcome him to our ranks.
  What I have to say will be a little less acceptable to the Minister than my previous remarks. I agree with everything the hon. Member for Northants, South had to say about our objectives and I agree that we need a more efficient economy and improved labour relations. We must also have a greater sense of

  1529
  security—and I do not use that term in the very limited sense of having security in employment only. I underline the need of having a sense of security of a more fundamental kind.
  The sense of security which a growing child needs and the sense of security which an adult needs are much the same. With a growing child the sense of security is fed by parental love and affection. What destroys the sense of security of an adult worker are bad labour relations, anxiety about his employment and the termination of it. If a man is relaxed and confident, as anyone who has a real sense of security demonstrates, he is a person with whom one can get on, with whom one can deal and to whom one can explain things knowing that he will not misunderstand them. With such a man one can develop good labour relations; and by using the word "he" I mean, of course, both male and female workers.
  It is clear that we all agree about these things. To demonstrate this I could not use a better text than the Minister's own speech on unemployment, which I referred to last week and which he referred to partly today. I recall that passage in which the right hon. Gentleman said:
  "…we must adjust ourselves to more rapid and industrial technical advance and the cones-quest changes this must have on employment. We should not and cannot allow this to take place at the expense of the individual. The fear of change and what it can mean is a powerful incentive to resist change and to slow it down by all possible means. We have to ensure that the need for change is accepted and that there is co-operation in creating an efficient and more flexible economy. The problem of security of helping the worker to face change with confidence—is basic to our industrial efficiency."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 4th February, 1963; Vol. 671, c. 65.]
  All the philosophy that informs the Minister's speeches I find completely acceptable. I only wonder why he keeps on repeating it and does nothing about it. I only wonder whether when he is making his speeches, he is trying to persuade the Minister of Labour to accept his point of view. I can think of no other reason. He seems to have forgotten that he is the Minister of Labour and that he should be bringing in legislation seeking to achieve the very objectives he describes. He keeps on describing them, but does little about
  1530
  them. This Bill does practically nothing about them.
  The first thing to be done is to establish a recognition on the part of every man and woman that the right to work always, every week, is an inherent right of every man. That is absolutely fundamental. It does not mean the right to work in the same job and in the same place for ever. It cannot mean that, because the freedom that the worker himself demands results in changes in the pattern of spending, results in changes in the pattern of production, and results in changes in employment but, without exception, we must recognise this fundamental right. That is not adequately recognised yet, and I shall demonstrate that it is not recognised at all in the Bill.
  We must see that there is between society and the worker an attitude that can be expressed most simply as follows: we, society, say to the worker, "We need you, and you need us. We need your work, and we need the product of your work. Relax, because although you cannot have full employment at this job in this place for ever—because of what you and your wife demand—we, society, will look after you. If there is no longer a job here, there will be one somewhere else. If it is not the same job, we will retrain you for the next job. You will suffer no hardship in the meantime. You will be protected. You will be trained. You will receive adequate, if not absolutely full wages during that period. If there is, as there inevitably is, some hardship in switching from one place to another over an indeterminate period, we will see that you are compensated for that hardship ". If society would talk in that way to the worker, the worker would begin to relax. He would begin to feel secure in the most fundamental sense.
  Not until the worker feels that sense of security shall we be rid of all the happenings such as the go-slow, unofficial strikes, and a whole host of things that claim to be related to some minor problem about the works lavatory, or something like that, but have no relation to it whatever but stem from a fundamental lack of a feeling of security. It is the sense of security that we have to develop.
  How does the Bill meet that point? It does not.
  Mr. Edward Gardner: Would the hon. Member go so far as to say that the recent go-slow in the electrical industry was caused by a sense of insecurity?
  Mr. Diamond: I have no first-hand information. I did not listen to any witnesses. The hon. and learned Member never comments on a particular set of events without hearing the evidence. I have not heard any witnesses on what happened in that case, so I do not know, I do know that those to whom my right hon. Friend referred as "bad men" are the tiny majority. But we are all human beings, whether at work in the House of Commons or outside it, and our fundamental need is a sense of security. We have not sufficiently recognised that in the case of the worker—
  Mr. Dan Jones: I must tell the hon. and learned Member for Billericay (Mr. Gardner) that the go-slows in the electricity supply industry involved less than 1 per cent. of the men. Is he not aware that over 90 per cent. of the men were engaged in very hard overtime work? It is only fair to state that fact with the other.
  Mr. Diamond: This Bill fails in several major ways. In it there is one error of commission, one error of omission and two profound psychological blunders.
  The error of commission, of course, is the attempt to equate the rights of the employer and the rights of the employee in regard to termination of employment. I find that difficult to describe in Parliamentary language. There is not a single employer—and I talk now as an ex-managing director, not as an employee—who does not know that if he runs his job with a minimum of efficiency he will have pretty good warning of when he wants or has to dispose of certain classes of labour—not one.
  The industry that is always put forward as the worst case is the contracting industry. I know that the hon. Member for Coventry, South (Mr. Hocking) has great experience of this industry, and there was a time when I, too, was very closely concerned with it and had considerable responsibility in it. In the contracting industry, although there is a minimum period of notice, no single job is undertaken until there has first been plotted a complete diagram of the categories of
  1532
  labour needed and the periods for which they will be used.
  One can see the graph going up and down, and one knows by the colours on it—this is done first, before one digs foundations, or anything—exactly which categories of labour will be wanted on given dates. On large jobs one can give six months' notice of need and, on a small jab, quite a considerable period of notice. This has nothing to do with the weather—the industry has dealt with the weather by means of the minimum week. That has been regular procedure for contractors for years and years. During the war, every contract for the Ministry of Works had Ministry of Works men drawing up the graphs of labour demand. Everyone knows about that.
  From what source, therefore, does the Minister of Labour get the information that makes him feel well advised to bring in a Bill containing the proposition that the employee must have the same rights as the employer? There is not the same requirement, the same sacrifice or the same need. There is the superficiality that one person is called the employer and another is called the employee, but that is not a reason for treating the two alike. That is a fundamental failing Lin the Bill.
  How does the Minister expect that Bill Buggins, or whatever he may be called, having heard that a job is going—and having been warned, as he is by a good employer or, by a bad employer, given the minimum notice, whatever it may be, dependent on the length of service—will be able to go round the corner at eleven o'clock in the morning and get the job? How does he expect the employee to remain where he is for another two months? Therefore, why bring in a Bill that contains such utter nonsense, which cannot be worked—
  Mr. Hocking: The hon. Member for Gloucester (Mr. Diamond) referred very kindly to the contracting industry, and stated that graphs are drawn up at the beginning in order to plot the number of men required at any given time. Would he also agree that it could be very destructive on any site for a key person to withdraw his labour at two hours' notice, or a day's notice when, on the other hand, the man could only

  1533
  be given notice of not less than a fortnight? If, on a modest site, a scaffolder—a skilled man, upon whom the rest of the work depended—wanted to leave, is it not reasonable to expect him to give a week's notice?
  Mr. John Rankin: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy-Speaker. Are you aware that a very large number of Members desire to take part in the debate? May we ask that interruptions be reduced to a minimum and that long interruptions be regarded as speeches?
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Sir William Anstruther-Gray): I do not know how close that really got to being a point of order, but I hope that the House will bear in mind that there are many hon. Members on both sides anxious to speak and that lengthy interruptions make speeches themselves even longer than they might otherwise be.
  Mr. Diamond: I have heard and taken careful note of what you have said, Mr. Deputy-Speaker. I share the view of my hon. Friend that interruptions, even on the most important points of order, are bound to extend the length of speeches. Perhaps the hon. Member for Coventry, South will, in the circumstances, excuse me if I do not reply on a point of detail but proceed at once to my second main criticism of the Bill.
  The principal error of omission is the failure to bring forward a Bill which, by being balanced, by giving something material to the worker as well as giving help to the employer, would make itself an acceptable Bill in totality. Here was the occasion, if ever there was, to pay regard to what the Minister himself has said and what the Prime Minister hinted at only two days ago about the need for avoiding individual suffering as a result of redundancy when there is change. I remind the Minister of his own words:
  "We should not and cannot allow this to take place at the expense of the individual."
  What is there in the Bill for the avoidance of the hardship to the individual which the Minister says is inevitable if there is to be change and if our society is to prosper? Why not bring in a Bill to deal with it? The Minister said, on the subject of notice, that voluntary arrangements are all right if they are effective,
  1534
  but, if they are not effective, one has to bring in legislation. He told us that in only 16 per cent. of industry, after all these years, are there anything like satisfactory schemes for redundancy payments or severance pay.
  I say that a Bill which ought to deal with redundancy and fails to do so in any way at all is worse than no good at all. It turns its back on severance pay. It refers to severance pay only for the sake of defining it, and, having defined it, says that it shall be deducted from something else from which it should not be deducted at all and with which we shall have to deal in Committee. This is not the way to encourage a sense of security in the worker. This is ham-handedness on the part of the Minister. Having made the point time after time as a statement of principle, he brings forward a Bill to deal with employment. Everyone is agreed on the need for severance pay or redundancy schemes of some sort, and everyone hopes that, at last, the Bill will deal with these matters. But there is not one word in it except a definition and a statement that, if someone gets both salary in lieu of notice and redundancy pay under his contract, one of them has to go. This was the major error of omission.
  Now, the two psychological blunders. At a time when we have nearly I million unemployed, the Minister has brought in a Bill which concentrates almost exclusively on providing methods for terminating a man's employment. It is really about the most ham-handed thing the Minister could do. I am very cross with the right hon. Gentleman. It is not that he is stupid or does not know. He has learnt it all. He knows it all. He says it all. But he, like the rest of the Tory Government, does nothing about it.
  The Bill can be looked at only with suspicion. I can show the Minister letters from every trade union with which I have had correspondence. The employers do not want it. The employees will regard it with suspicion. How could they do otherwise? People are extremely sensitive about possible redundancies, yet all we are given in the Bill is new legislation providing the precise terms on which they can be sacked. That is the way they will look at it. They are given nothing but a piece of paper. After five weeks, a worker is given a piece of paper. I ask the right hon. Gentleman to imagine the

  1535
  reaction of a workman with red blood in his veins who has been five weeks in a particular employment. The right hon. Gentleman is the boss, and the worker is fearful about possible redundancy in the area. He, the boss, goes to the workman and says, "You have been a good fellow. You have been here five weeks, so I will give you a piece of paper telling you how you can be dismissed". I suggest that the worker will tell the right hon. Gentleman what he could do with his piece of paper.
  Mr. R. Gresham Cooke: Nonsense.
  Mr. Diamond: It is no use hon. Gentlemen rejecting what I am saying. It only shows that they are unaware of the feeling which exists in the factories and among the trade unions about it. They may feel that they are being jolly decent and giving something to the workers, but, in fact, they are not. They are giving precious little. They are giving crumbs of comfort only, and to give crumbs of comfort only to a man who is hungry, at a time when he feels that there should be a considerable meal put before him, is to give no satisfaction at all. It makes him very angry. That is why I say that the Bill makes two cardinal psychological blunders in concentrating on the termination of employment.
  If anyone is not aware of what the Bill does, let him read the Title—
  "To require a minimum period of notice to terminate the employment of those who have been employed for a qualifying period, to provide for matters connected with the giving of notice"—
  and to require the giving of a piece of paper with particulars of the terms of employment. It is only a piece of paper because the contract, whether written or not written is still a contract. The only thing the man gets is the extra piece of paper. The Bill produces nothing of real value and, far from improving labour relations, it is likely, if anything, to weaken and damage them.
  As my hon. Friend the Member for Southwark (Mr. Gunter) said, why on earth did not the Minister bring in a Bill appropriate to 1963? We are all agreed about the objectives. Who or what is the Minister afraid of? Is he afraid of the employers? On the whole,
  1536
  employers are in favour of redundancy payments. Many employers go out of their way to speak about the need for making redundancy payments. One very enlightened employer has even been here to talk to back-bench Members opposite in their Committee upstairs about the need to make redundancy payments. What is he afraid of? How much longer will he drag his feet? If he knows that that is the kind of legislation required, why not bring it in?
  The Bill is really so lacking in any contributions to the needs of the day that the fact that it has been postponed and postponed week after week is no great tragedy. For my part—I say this very definitely—if it had been postponed for several further months or completely postponed, I should not have minded at all. Only if, which I very much doubt, we can in Committee bring in severance pay and all the other needs which everyone recognises to exist shall I, for one, be prepared to vote for the Bill on Third Reading.
  5.48 p.m.
  Mr. David Renton: The hon. Member for Gloucester (Mr. Diamond) paid a gracious tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Northants, South (Mr. Arthur Jones) on his maiden speech, a tribute which I endorse most warmly.
  Like his hon. Friend the Member for Southwark (Mr. Gunter), the hon. Member for Gloucester rather ponderously overstated the case, such as it is, against the Bill. I have a feeling that representatives of both employers and trade unions outside the House are a little piqued because my right hon. Friend has wisely asked the House to do by legislation what they could and should have done by negotiation a long time ago. It is agreed, I think, that the Bill is sound in principle, although, as most Bills do when first presented, it needs amendment in detail.
  The speech of the hon. Member for Southwark, which was, I thought, courageous and helpful to a great extent, was based mainly upon his experience of organised labour in factories. But, of course, we have to take a much wider view of the employment problem than that.
  May I ask the House to consider the magnificent efforts of all those workers

  1537
  who keep things going in this perishing winter. People on the farms, in face of enormous difficulties, as my hon. Friend the Member for Northants, South knows so well, kept us supplied with food and milk. We are grateful to the people who work on the roads. I agree that the comments of the hon. Member for Southwark about those who work on the railways are rather more relevant in this connection. Many of these people who have had such an awful time bearing the brunt of the difficulties of recent weeks did just the same in 1947. They have worked for the same employers continuously ever since and could be sacked tomorrow at a week's notice. Surely, in this enlightened age, that is a fantastic situation. Equally bad on the other side of the picture is the way in which major industrial disputes so often grow from minor misunderstandings about the terms of employment.
  I therefore do not see how anyone can but welcome the Bill in its broad objectives. It has three great advantages. First, it gives greater security to millions of workers who have little or none at present. Secondly, it gives greater security and some encouragement to steady workers who are prepared to stay in a job and master it instead of flitting from one job to another, thus causing wastage and inefficiency. Thirdly, by saying that the essential terms of employment shall be written down it will reduce misunderstanding and thereby reduce strikes and disputes. Incidentally, it may also save trade union officials quite a lot of work, and I am sure that it will do so without diminishing their status.
  Broadly speaking, the Bill as drafted fulfils these objects. If there is anything in it which interferes with the fulfilment of those objects, I say without hesitation that it should be amended. I am glad that my right hon. Friend has shown that he has an open mind about the details of it.
  I hope that I may say as a lawyer that Clauses 1 and 2 are founded and improve on the common law. The common law says that when no period of notice has been agreed, reasonable notice must be given on either side. The common law relies for what is "reasonable notice" on the custom in each trade. The custom nearly always prescribes too short a notice by modern
  1538
  standards, and I know of no trade in which the notice lengthens with the length of service.
  The Bill, by requiring two weeks' notice after two years' service and four weeks' notice after five years' service, makes a great advance on the common law. I should have been prepared to accept a simple formula of one week's notice to be given by the employer for each year of service, on which, no doubt, the hon. Member for Gloucester will be glad to find that I am in agreement with him. But, obviously, that formula could not work both ways. If the employee is to give the same length of notice to the employer as he has to give the employee, about which I have some doubts which I will mention, it must be kept short, or good men with long records of service will miss opportunities of bettering themselves by going at short notice to other jobs.
  Is it really necessary for the Bill to provide that the employee has to give as long notice as the employer, or, indeed, any notice at all? I know that this is a difficult question. It is tempting to say that, as the Bill imposes fresh obligations on employers, it should require some reciprocity by the employees who are to benefit. But I believe that most employers—I do not speak as a large employer; I am one of those who has not been involved with trades unions or employers—regard a sanction of that kind as rather unrealistic. It gives a theoretical right which in practice is unenforceable and certainly is not worth the trouble of enforcing on most occasions. To that extent, I agree with the British Employers' Confederation.
  The Government should consider making Clause 1 apply only to notice given by employers. If they decided the matter in that way, it would be possible to widen the scope of the Bill by dealing also with severance pay for redundancy, thus meeting the wishes of the hon. Member for Gloucester. The simple formula of one week's notice or severance pay for each year of service might be found to be the best way to do it. I am not stating dogmatically that it would be, but merely putting the point forward for consideration, since I do not claim to be an expert in these matters.
  As the hon. Member for Southwark candidly pointed out, no domestic matter worries people more than the way in which

  1539
  a minority of workers can, by unofficial strikes, prevent the whole community, including their fellow workers, from going forward to greater prosperity. Indeed, they can hold the whole community up to ransom at a very awkward time. But I am sure my right hon. Friend is right to leave it to the trades unions to put their own house in order. I am glad that they are considering the whole question of unofficial strikes, among other matters, but I hope that they will not be too long about it. The trades unions and the employers' organisations do not work as fast as we do in this House. They are inclined to bumble along in their own sweet way. This is not a matter on which the country will indefinitely tolerate bumbling along at the pace to which they are accustomed.
  It is tempting to use such opportunities as the Bill gives to solve or mitigate the problem of unofficial strikes, but I doubt very much whether it is feasible in practice to do what the Bill does by requiring workers with over two years' service to give two weeks' strike notice while others working beside them give whatever notice is customary or agreed, which will generally be found to be one week. There is a strong case for saying that all workers shall give two weeks' strike notice, which is now fairly common practice, but we should avoid the risk of having different periods of notice for workers in the same factory or even the same industry.
  I wish to make only one other detailed point and that concerns the application of Clause 4, dealing with written notice, to casual, seasonal or temporary workers. Here I speak, as did my hon. Friend the Member for Northants, South, as Member for a large farming constituency. We grow a tremendous quantity of crops in my constituency, especially root crops, and much of the work is done at piece rates by well and properly organised gangs, which are formed daily as a rule by a gang master who arranges transport, bargains with the farmer and pays the workers. The contract between the farmer and the gang master is generally not a daily or weekly one but a contract for a particular job, like lifting 10 acres of potatoes.
  Mr. Niall MaeDermot: It is the same in the building industry.
  Mr. Renton: Sometimes the people may be employed for a long as 21 hours a week and for as many as five weeks in succession with the same farmer, but even so they will be doing different jobs at different piece rates, and incidentally the rates will often he a bit above the statutory rates.
  If the provisions of Clause 4 are to be applied in those circumstances, there will be many complicated bits of paper flying about. There has to be one for each employee. I therefore have great sympathy with the National Farmers' Union in this matter.
  I do not know how the Government came to choose 21 hours as the minimum for regular employment. My right hon. Friend the Minister indicated that it was half a normal working week—it sometimes will be and sometimes it will not—but wherever the line is drawn, there will be difficulty. It would be better to say that the requirements of the Bill apply only to regular and whole-time workers and shall not apply to casual, seasonal or part-time workers.
  My attitude to the Bill can be described in the well-known phrase of my 18th century constituent, Mr. Brown, the landscape gardener:
  "I think that it has great capabilities."
  6.1 p.m.
  Mr. Charles Pannell: I am glad to follow the right hon. and learned Member for Huntingdonshire (Mr. Renton), who has just made what I believe is his first speech from the back benches since he moved up. I express sorrow in one way and joy in another. The hon. and learned Member began with a well-deserved tribute to all those people who have stood by us in the perishing winter. The hon. and learned Member would have been nearer the mark had he spoken about the perishing Government at the same time.
  I was glad, however, that the hon. and learned Member came down on a view which, I believe, is held widely in the House—I ask the Parliamentary Secretary to note this—and which appears in every one of the references that I have had by trade unions in my capacity as the secretary of the 100-strong group of trade union Members in this House, that there can be no parity as between the

  1541
  notice that an employer can give and that which an employee can give.
  An employer can give notice completely objectively without any hurt to himself. I have already mentioned in an intervention to the Minister that the Bill says nothing about penalties for lock-outs. As to an employee, however, one can consider the 101 examples when he might need to have a pretty quick get-out from a job.
  Somebody has mentioned the lower levels of management in industrial relationships. This is the black spot throughout industry. It may be that I tend to tinge justice with memory, because I have been nearly 44 years a member of a trade union, but all my difficulties were with foremen. I could always get agreement at top level with the managing director, only to find always that there was great resentment by the foreman that a shop steward had access to the top level.
  I remember the occasions when an employee was given hardly an hour's notice. I speak with respect but with far more practical knowledge than either the Minister or his deputy. I looked up their social background in "Who's Who". While the Parliamentary Secretary's hobbies are given as golfing and shooting, his senior's are golfing and gardening. Let us bear in mind their social background. If I appear to speak with feeling, it is because I am subjective.
  I remember what happened in the early 1920s. The Bill probably applies more to engineering than to any other industry. [An HON. MEMBER: "Why?"] To start with, it is the biggest. I remember the times in the 1920s when a massacre would take place in the shop. There were 200 people to be paid off. The foreman was looking down from his office. Everybody was hunched up wondering whether it would be himself or somebody else. Those were the realities of life.
  I remember a creature named White, a Scotsman—
  Mr. Rankin: White is not a Scottish name. It is English.
  Mr. Pannell: If my hon. Friend does not like the name, it could be Rankin—but it was not. I am dealing with one of the lower forms of life. This chap came up and said, "What's your name?"
  1542
  A man might answer, "Rankin". The man then used to say, "I have some very sad news for you, Rankin. You are fired."
  Mr. Rankin: Did he ever say it to Pannell?
  Mr. Pannell: Yes, often, but I deserved it less. I can only say that the degree of exultation which that chap got out of it had to be seen to be believed. Those types were not rare. I hope that after ail these years, that chap is roasting somewhere in the flames of hell.
  Hon. Members should not underrate the collective memory of the trade union movement. Nobody need tell me that I am nourishing old grievances, because I am well enough known to be able to say that I do not. One of the jobs that I do now, however, is to give lectures to ex-officers who enter civilian life. I am very much moved by men who have broken at the rank of major or commander and want to enter civilian life. I give them lectures on the trade union movement. I am appalled at the abysmal ignorance of those people who will have to deal with trade unionists.
  I have to remind them that the trade union movement also has its battle honours. We have Tolpuddle, Peterloo and the sort of memories of which I have spoken. It may not be so in London, but in my constituency, the cradle of the Industrial Revolution, there is still a collective memory of old wrongs. It should not be thought that they are entirely ironed out. The Minister's Parliamentary Private Secretary, the hon. Member for Brighouse and Spenborough (Mr. Shaw), will know that there is a collective memory. Part of the strength of Yorkshire is that it has a collective sense, which I am glad that it still has.
  When we talk about the trade union movement, people speak about old grievances, but when we talk about the Services and the great, long history of the nation, they are called traditions. They are the same thing. People sometimes talk about the odd man—the non-unionist who has been persecuted to the point of death and sent to Coventry because he has not joined a union. In the days when my photograph was circulated up and down the country by the Engineering Employers' Federation as a man to be employed nowhere at all, there was no sympathy. When the shop

  1543
  stewards bring people out now in Oxford, in the same place where I had to go under a nom de plume, my heart rises a bit when they demand 100 per cent. trade union. These are the facts of industrial life.
  It is to their credit that, in the main, the Conservative Administration admitted directly they were returned in 1951 that the pre-war attitude of the Conservative Party to the working class, to the trade unions and to unemployment must go. Hon. Members opposite know full well that that is so. The right hon. Member for Woodford (Sir W. Churchill) chose his Minister of Labour with the greatest care. He chose the present Lord Monckton, who so regarded his office that he refused to make a political speech at any time while he held that office. He regarded it almost as a semi-judicial function.
  The Trades Union Congress has been quoted by hon. Members opposite, and rightly so. I am glad that they have changed their attitude about it. Make no mistake, the trades union movement is one of the great estates of the realm, by which I mean a body that can give or withhold supplies.
  In saying this, I will probably clash with some of the members of the Trades Union Congress. I am all in favour of giving the T.U.C. all possible recognition, but the considerations that affect the day-to-day life of workers in factory, mine and mill cannot be kept out of this place because of any hesitation outside, whether by employers or the T.U.C. It is something which must be our concern here.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Gloucester (Mr. Diamond) dealt with the Bill so much in detail that I may tend to refer to it more philosophically, but I hope that the House will bear with me. The weakness in our society today is that it is too much a class society. I am not now speaking about class and class but within the working class, within the people who work, there is a certain dichotomy. We have the difference between the white-collar worker and the blue-collar worker, as he is known in the United States. The white-collar worker was born of the time when he was given security, which was a great thing in times of unemployment. He
  1544
  could come in at 9 o'clock in the morning, whereas the other men came in at 7.30, and he was given the holidays and on the pay roll he was called "Mr.".
  We now have the realisation of full employment. The things which were of value to him then are no longer here, because in a time of full employment the blue-collar worker comes completely into his own. He is in great demand. If he is a craftsman the blue-collar worker may have training and skills, but on the other hand the philosophy of hire and fire still follows him around. One of the objections to this Bill is in the crafts and occupations which are most open to the blast of seasonal weather, of foreign competition and the exigencies of hire and fire. They are completely outside the scope of the Bill. Therefore the Bill should be widened.
  Again, the blue-collar worker has the great tradition of the trades union movement. He is protected throughout by the Factories Act, whereas white-collar workers are only just coming into their own, with legislation about their places of employment. There is another dichotomy in the industrial situation, namely, those people in the sheltered and the unsheltered trades. In my own union of nearly 1 million members there are nearly 800,000 in private industry, open to the full blast of foreign competition and another 200,000 in sheltered industry. Within my constituency an employee of the Leeds Corporation can serve local government to the end of his days and can get superannuation based on two-thirds of his salary in addition to other pensions, whereas another man in a private factory can have paid all his working days towards pension and can be put out on National Assistance to the end of his life.
  That is what I mean when I say I want a classless society. I happen to believe that a classless society, together with a warless world, is one of the main aims of all intelligent human endeavour. By that I mean a society where every man is valued and recompensed entirely in the contribution that he makes to society and not from inherited wealth. He is not valued for anything which his father brings into the world but for what he himself does.

  1545
  People speak about the right to strike. How muddle-headed can people get? The great Reform Bill of 1832 gave the vote to only 4 per cent. of the populace, so consequently the proletariat and the peasantry of that day could demonstrate only by the right to strike. We might remember that as late as 1829 we had the armed labourers' revolts in this country. It is rather strange that the last one took place at Orpington, of all places. The history of the nineteenth century is the history of the struggle of the trade union movement to get the franchise. While it did not have the franchise, the right to strike was the only weapon available.
  Of course, I hope more than anybody else that we can come to look upon the right to strike as an outdated weapon which has become absolutely unnecessary, but do not ask the trade union movement to give it up. They will not do so, any more than some of the regiments of the line who wear curious decorations on certain days, such as the rose of Minden, would be prepared to give up their customs. One has to remember when speaking about the British trade unionist that he has all the best qualities of the British infantryman. They are the same people: in trade unionism they have the loyalty, the quality of cohesion, and the ability to fight a losing battle in difficult circumstances. That same spirit is there, whether he is fighting in a war or facing up to some bully on the home front. These are the characteristic attributes of our people, and we must not try to play them down.
  Of course we have a nomenclature of our own. What did Jack London say about the blackleg—the product of the fifth day generation on which the Lord made all creeping and crawling things. I have seen a good many men in my lifetime—people who have ratted, who have gone out and wanted the rewards of the things we have fought for and struggled and gone on strike for, and I have never seen a decent man amongst them, with the possible exception of W. V. Osborne, whom I knew very well. He was a Liberal out of his time who I believe would have sacrificed as much for his cause as I would for mine—and that will not be very popular with my trade union friends.
  Let us say a word about the shop stewards, and stop talking nonsense. I
  1546
  have never been a full-time trade union officer. I was interested in local government and served the community in that way, and I had to make the choice early on as to which I wanted. I had the ambition to come into this place, and quite frankly, despite what I see opposite, I am not disappointed. As a matter of fact we might sometimes remember the jobs done by a shop steward. I was mayor of a borough during the whole of the war. Every one of our houses was hit at least five times, and at the same time I was a shop steward on the factory floor, and when the factory was bombed the chief engineer was not much good as an advocate. I did all the advocacy, in endeavouring to get war damage repaired and to get a roof on the place.
  I can remember many strange things, including acting as executor of the will of a man who actually died while celebrating on his connubial bed. He had a subarachnoid, which was traumatic in origin, and the excitement killed him. I took his case up because he had been employed by Wimpeys some years before as a sub-contractor where he received a blow on the head, and we got £900 from Wimpeys because he ought not to have had the weakness there.
  I was in a fully protected shop—a closed shop—and settling troubles day after day without recourse to trade union officers, at a time when such things as time and motion studies were going on. These things are being done day after day by people to whom we should be grateful.
  I will trouble the House with a small rhyme which was published in my trade union journal in 1943, and when hon. Gentlemen opposite are tempted to say silly things they might look it up in HANSARD:
  "Who is the worst paid man today?
  With haggard look and hair turned grey,
  Who's blamed when things do not go right
  Who gets no rest by day or night?
  Though never having been to college
  He must possess the widest knowledge
  On rates of pay and hours of labour
  And how to keep peace with one's neighbour.
  Of income tax—"
  Yes, I have advised on that as well—
  "Of income tax and how to pay it,
  What's best to say, and when to say it,
  The how and which and why and when
  Of all the problems known to men.

  1547
  If with the foreman he's agreed,
  He's sold the men or been weak-kneed,
  When for the men he tries to cater,
  He's called a blinking agitator.
  Who is this chap? What! Don't you know him?
  Or how much you really owe him?
  This chap, whose torment is assured,
  Is no one else than your shop steward!"
  I used to have that hanging over my bench. The author was anonymous, but it appeared in the A.E.U. monthly journal in 1943. As a matter of fact, it came out of my subconscious when thinking about my speech.
  I want to say generally to the Minister on the broad purpose of the Bill that anything that increases the esteem of the worker and removes him from being just a "hand", just a number on a clock, is something that I stand for and some-think that I want. I remember the first think we did in a certain borough council when I took over the leadership in 1938. We instructed the town clerk that everyone in future was to be addressed as "Mr."—not only the office people. The town clerk found it very awkward. But people take to this idea.
  The Labour Party brought 20 per cent. of the economy under public ownership betwen 1945 and 1951, and I wonder whether we had our priorities right. We concentrated on economic issues, and many social relationships were left unresolved. But I happen to believe that social relationships are just as important as economic issues. I also believe that a future Labour Government could devote all their time over five years to social relationships and still justify themselves—dealing with the public school system and all sorts of things like that, the divorce laws, and all those social issues on which the present Parliament has been most cowardly.
  Turning to the Bill itself—I am sorry that I have spent so much time outside the Bill, but what we are concerned about on Second Reading is the will of Parliament to assert certain principles, and we can deal with all the points of detail in Committee—the Measure, let us face it, confers no substantial new rights on the workers, although it makes no substantial inroads upon existing rights. Still, it is at least a start. It probably registers a principle.
  1548
  I have dealt with the question of the minimum period of notice, but I should also like to make the bedrock complaint that those who would most benefit from the Bill are excluded from it. The Bill does not touch at all the large industries where insecurity is a byword. The main provisions of the Bill do not fill any long-felt want. People may argue that the Bill is an attempt by the Conservative Party to give the impression that the Conservatives are interested in industrial security. They proclaimed this message in 1947, but they have been a long time coming round to it. I notice that hon. Members opposite are becoming very interested in reforming the Legislature. They want to strengthen the Legislature against the Executive. They have brought out a document, which is called—
  Mr. Gresham Cooke: "Change or Decay".
  Mr. Pannell: Yes. I thought it was talking about the Prime Minister. I believe that the Bill is on a level with that document. A General Election is approaching. The possibility of our having a Labour Government is imminent. Consequently, hon. Members opposite want to strengthen the Legislature against the Executive—a Socialist Executive.
  All through the years hon. Gentlemen opposite have ignored every Select Committee on which I have served. There was the Stokes Committee which would have made this a self-respecting place with a body of commissioners to run it instead of having a sort of contemptuous act of grace. Hon. Members opposite have ignored Members' pay and kept this place meanly housed, meanly paid and meanly esteemed, and have given the idea to the country that we are a lot of squalid people. They have propagated that sort of line.
  Hon. Members opposite have also ignored completely the Committee on Procedure, on which I served in 1958 and 1959—
  Mr. Speaker: Order. I cannot see how the Committee on Procedure can be brought within any reasonable range of the Contracts of Employment Bill.
  Mr. Pannell: With great respect, Mr. Speaker, I do not know quite when you came into the Chair. But I was trying

  1549
  to develop the argument that this Bill must be seen in its timing only against the background of a General Election.
  Mr. Speaker: I followed the point. I thought the hon. Gentleman was rather far from the permissible limits in dealing with the Committee on Procedure.
  Mr. Pannell: Perhaps I shall not be out of order, Mr. Speaker. if I finish by saying that this is all on a par with what the Government are doing now with regard to the subject of this Bill. All that back benchers opposite are doing must be looked at against the background of electoral change.
  There is only one thing I want to say with reference to the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Southwark (Mr. Gunter). After all, he represents the more sedentary workers. I wonder whether I can carry the hon. Member for Mitcham (Mr. R. Carr) with me on this. I think it is a great mistake when people start speaking about the "soullessness" of automation. I have done as much mass production work as most people. The benefit of it is that one need use only half a mind on the job for double the wages. When I was involved in tightening nuts and loosening nuts I was probably thinking about whom I should go out with in the evening. I could do that. Indeed, at the same time I worked out all sorts of speeches for the local council.
  There is a world of difference between the two sets of conditions. In a fully automated factory one has fine conditions, clean and decent lavatory accommodation and decent factory facilities and can change one's overalls when one wants to. I have also worked in a factory in one of the industrial slums, working with a hammer and chisel and hitting my knuckles, and working on cast-iron and getting black from top to toe. Do not let hon. Members think that that is better than automation. We have built up an automated economy for one reason only—so that this country can be wealthy, and if this country is wealthy, it can afford the social services that our people desire and deserve. Only in that way can we do it. We cannot do it by looking back to the sort of factory slums that I have in my constituency. We shall do it only by looking forward.
  Therefore, if, in spite of everything I have said, the Bill is an intimation that
  1550
  the Government want industrial attitudes to be brought into a modern setting in which people will be recognised for what they are—not as supplicants on their knees but as men on their feet—then it is a start.
  6.27 p.m.
  Sir William Robson Brown: When I first heard that there was to be a Contracts of Employment Bill I was delighted and had high hopes, but I must now say—and I must register my disappointment at the fact—that this Bill falls far short of the imagination and courage of the Workers' Charter of 1947. I hope that before this Bill is finished, during the Committee stage, it will be given very many more characteristics and sentiments such as were expressed by the hon. Member for Southwark (Mr. Gunter), whose speech today I commend to the House and the public. There was very much that he said that I need not now say.
  The Minister has, I know, been quite sincere and genuine in believing that he was bringing forward something worth while. But he has brought forward a very poor, weak and puny child. There will be much to be done during the Committee stage. The Bill has few friends and many critics as it stands at the moment. The employers, for many sensible and justifiable reasons, do not like it, and I understand also the objections of the unions in the same way, and many of us who are fully informed Parliamentarians have the same reservations.
  The Bill seems to me to be entirely the work of the Minister and his civil servants, and it does not seem to have taken full account of the advice—the good advice—of well-informed people outside. It savours to me—this is what I want most to say about it—of being too much a Bill designed in some peculiar and subtle way to prevent strikes instead of being an integral part of a Workers' Charter, instead of being what I always hoped the Workers' Charter would be. I coined the term "Workers' Charter" because I believed the Conservative Party had a great duty to bring forward a charter for our working people.
  My right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Huntingdonshire (Mr. Renton), with his fine legal mind, put his finger upon a point which has been ignored in the Bill and which would meet

  1551
  with a very great response from both sides of the House and, in particular, from my side. He considered that we should have had at least one week's notice for every year of service and a minimum of four weeks' notice for everybody who had twelve months' continuous employment and was accepted as a good worker in a company.
  That is what we projected fourteen years ago in the Industrial Charter, and I hope that the Bill, before it finally passes through this House, will include it unmistakably. The drafters of this Bill do not seem to have realised that they were creating three grades of workers in every factory. For five years' service, there is four weeks' notice. These are the first-class citizens. For two years' service, there is two weeks' notice. These are the second-class citizens. For those with under two years' service there is one week's notice at best, with none at all in some circumstances. These are the third-class citizens. There will be three classes of worker in the same company.
  When it comes to the question of strikes, however, it is clear that those who drafted the Bill do not understand the mind and the mentality of the British worker. I find it difficult to imagine, in a pile-up in which someone suggests a strike, some of the chaps saying, "We cannot do it for a fortnight", others saying "We cannot come out for a week", and others saying, "We can come out tomorrow morning because we are not bound to give notice". But we all know the spirit of the men under grievances. They will all come out together, and, as the hon. Member for Southwark said, they will never accept victimisation. They will want to start again, de novo, as they came out. Thus, these provisions in the Bill have no validity and no purposes.
  I wonder whether the drafters gave sufficient consideration to the man who may wish to leave the employment of a company. A man leaves because he is unhappy and wants to get out. Is it worth while hanging on to him and compelling him to give legal notice? Again, suppose a man has a better job offered to him in the same town, or elsewhere, with greater security or higher pay or both. Could any reasonable employer, if asked by that man to let him go quickly,
  1552
  refuse? What answer could any decent employer give if a man came to him and said, "I have been offered a better job. I know that you are entitled to notice, but would you mind if I skipped notice and went as quickly as I could?" Under this Bill the long service man would be penalised by such a provision. The hard and arrogant employer may say to a man asking to be allowed to leave at once, "No. I have you under contract." Yet a fellow who has been with the firm for less than two years will be able to walk out to get the other job. That situation is no good.
  I believe that it is sound industrial policy that where one has a man on the factory floor who wants to leave one should let him go as soon as possible. If he does not want to stay with one there must be some reason for it and that is a good reason in itself why one does not want to have him remain with one.
  The Bill refers to what it calls "a reasonable amount of work". That is a lovely phrase. I wonder whether any lawyer here or anywhere else can define to me what is a reasonable amount of work. It may be that a hard employer will say, "You work until you drop dead. That is reasonable." A workman may be a scrimshanker, doing as little as he can in the longest possible time. A man, because of domestic troubles or sickness, may not want to work overtime. If he declines to do so when asked, it is not a question of "go slow" but a genuine wish not to do overtime. Can one dismiss that man? The phrase does not make sense.
  The Bill completely ignores the thing that matters most and which should have been built into it. I hope that my right hon. Friend will yet accept it. We must deal with the burning question of long-term redundancy and long-term compensation. We have to have a new attitude and a new approach to the men and provide for them, as one always can in any successful, worth-while company, a sufficient sum of money, even by insurance, so that if bad times come they do not fall with injustice upon men who have worked with the company for many years. This should have been a basic part of a Conservative Bill.
  Whatever the effect of the Bill, it goes nowhere near dealing with the industrial problem of our time. Last year we had more industrial disputes and loss of time than over any of the previous forty

  1553
  years. Our record was the worst for nearly half a century. The nation cannot go on ignoring these bitter facts. There was an element of acceptance by the hon. Member for Southwark that something had to be done.
  Without delay, the Government—and this is the core of what I have to say—should set up an independent commission of inquiry, not an independent commission for Ford's. but something of national character with national personalities, respected and admired, to deal with the conflicting factors making up our industrial life.
  One hon. Member has referred to the social aspects of industrial affairs. I do not want a commission of inquiry as a sort of Spanish Inquisition into the unions. That is not the purpose. It must go far deeper than that in its purpose and in its consequences. Nor do I want an attack on the employers. We must fuse together industrial and social policies, industrial planning and social effects.
  I am one of those who profoundly believe that our troubles do not stem from hours of work or wages but from something in the hearts of men, in the question of dignity and sense of purpose in their factories and when they go home. A man is a free Englishman in his own home, but inside the factory he finds that he is restricted.
  Mr. Cyril Bence: Unless he is a Scotsman.
  Sir W. Robson Brown: I wonder. We must, perhaps, make exceptions for the Scots.
  We need industrial responsibility on all sides before we can secure the social security which is the aim and purpose of us all. I am emboldened, indeed am forced, into saying all this because the Americans and the British at the end of the war started this situation through action and reaction in Germany. It was we who introduced workers' representation in German industry, and the Germans put it to profound purpose. I have here a document by Dr. Alfred Badger, Industrial Relations Officer of the Gas Council. It is called "Industrial Relations in Europe", and I recommend it to hon. Gentlemen. If the commission I suggest did nothing much more than study what is happening in Europe, why there is
  1554
  there this great renaissance, it would be doing us a profound service.
  I cannot but be ashamed. I look at the rise of modern Germany and compare its industrial figures with those of my own country. I am a proud Englishman. We all are. That is not cheap sentiment.
  Mr. Bence: We are British.
  Sir W. Robson Brown: Scottish, Irish, Welsh, British—whatever the hon. Gentleman likes. He knows what I mean.
  British employers and unions are alike. They are tied to 19th century ideas of procedure. One finds such old methods everywhere. We are completely bogged down in negotiating machinery and many other aspects of industrial life. If we were to apply to Great Britain principles which have proved so successful abroad, we could retain our competitive position, regain our prestige and assure our very social and industrial future, for all these depend on a modern industrial philosophy for Great Britain.
  I should like in conclusion to make one single point. There is in most of the factories of this country machinery, tools, men and women not being used to full and effective purpose. I do not believe that our country is at this moment of time geared up to the competition and challenge of the world, and it is in this spirit that I ask the House to give consideration to this Bill so that its concept may be so extended and widened as to leave nobody, either on the union side or the employers' side, with any cause for criticism, at the same time dwelling upon and giving support to the idea of an independent inquiry to go into the whole of the industrial aspects of our nation and find new answers to old problems.
  6.42 p.m.
  Mr. Arthur Holt: It falls to me to follow the hon. Member for Esher (Sir W. Robson Brown), and I agree with many of his detailed criticisms of the Bill. I would doubt, however, whether it is really necessary to have a great independent commission set up to inquire into the kind of thing about which he was talking. I would have thought that employers' associations and trade unions are well able to inform themselves of all that is going on on the Continent, in countries like Germany and Sweden, and in America,

  1555
  and to draw their own conclusions, as to whether those are the kind of things that would fit into our kind of industrial life which may be different in emphasis from those in the industrial life of countries like Scandinavia or Germany, or across the Atlantic.
  We know that many very useful developments have taken place in conditions of work and in the way in which relationships are carried on between management and men in other countries. I am all for knowing all about them and seeing which of them we could usefully apply in our own country; but I honestly do not think we need an independent commission to do this, and I am greatly afraid that if we were to set up one we should greatly delay the bringing in of modern practices which the best managements are already adopting and the best trade unionists are already urging.
  What we have really to do is to spread those rapidly throughout industry. I believe there is great unanimity on the view that many troubles of industry do not arise from wages and similar things but from the kind of things with which we were led to believe this Bill was to deal; and I think there is great unanimity in this House that the Bill hardly moves along the road in dealing with them. I do not wish to repeat points of criticism which have been made by other hon. Members, at any rate not at length. I largely agree with those criticisms, and I have a feeling—I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman the Member for Southwark (Mr. Gunter) shares this with me, but I certainly agree with many of the criticisms he made—that this House may make something of this Bill, judging from the unaminity which is shown on both sides of the House about the foolishness, for example, of demanding that the same amount of notice must be given by the employee and employer, about the foolishness of pretending that we can deal with lighting strikes by letting people know that if they strike they will lose the value of continuity. Enough has already been said on that from this side of the House to make it pointless for me to pursue it.
  I would just like to throw out one or two points which have not been made. One or two hon. Gentlemen have spoken of status. I think we are all in danger
  1556
  of going wrong on this. I am sure that in the past I have often got it wrong myself. While we may have been speaking in the right way perhaps we have been defining it in the wrong kind of terms. Status is important in the sense that people in this country at the moment have very different degrees of status and are very much aware of that. We talk of trying to give the ordinary industrial worker the same kind of status as the white-collar worker, but I am sure that this is really a wrong conception. Surely status is a kind of feudal conception whereas what we are trying to achieve is a free society the basis of which is an acceptance of an individual's contract with society or with his place of work and so on.
  In such a society there should be, of course, only one status for anyone—the status of a free man in a free society, and perhaps this Bill could be the begin-ing, because it is an intervention by the Legislature with regard to terms of contracts. It is oddly titled, a "Contracts of Employment Bill" That has a legalistic sound, but my legal advisers say that the phrase should be "Terms of Employment" and that it is wrong to talk of contracts of employment since the Bill deals with terms of employment. I do not press that point. If, through the Legislature, we could set minimum limits to terms which will appear in contracts, we could really make a move towards getting everyone who is involved in industry, whether in a quite humble position or a very senior position, on literally the same kind of status with the same kind of security and the same kind of severance pay on loss of employment.
  I think it is very often difficult for people who have largely spent their time in managerial positions in industry and perhaps have been lucky in that they have never been out of work, having moved from one secure position to another, to understand this tremendous feeling of insecurity that still applies to so many ordinary people employed in industry. I am sure that it is by dealing with that insecurity, by removing it. by the nature of what is done—and not just by saying, "You need not worry any more"—by the nature of the contract which supports their employment, that we shall greatly improve industrial relations and remove a lot of frustration. I should have thought that if this is an

  1557
  endeavour to move over to a genuinely contractual system, a system, as it were, of equal obligation, but one basically concerned with improving the position of the ordinary worker, thereby obtaining—to put it in the terms of an employer—that better response which the employer is often trying to get, and is given as the other side of the coin—if that is what we are trying to do, then by amendment we might start on the road with this Bill. But, if that is so, surely it is a little odd that in this day and age the words "trade unions" are not mentioned in the whole of the Bill, for surely they must play some part if there are to be firm contracts of employment. If we want co-operation and the acceptance of terms of contract of employment, trade unions must be involved.
  Secondly, what is to happen if, when we have proceeded some way along this road, there are disagreements about contracts or how they are to be carried out? Is not the second necessity to consider whether we should not set up industrial courts specifically to deal with the kind of difficulties and problems that come from arguments about contract of employment and whether they are being carried out or not? I am thinking here of the cases of the kind mentioned by the hon. Member for Southwark, where a person was "sacked" on a Friday night with no reason whatever being given why he was being sacked. This is the kind of case which I would like to see go to an industrial court and the employer made to answer for his actions. This is a development to which we should pay some attention.
  If we start to move along those lines and build into this Bill severance pay—which the right hon. and learned Member for Huntingdonshire (Mr. Renton) said he would like—to the extent of an extra week for each year of employment, we would make some progress. I think that this must be looked on not as something which is exactly balanced between employer and employee, but as something which will be successful only if it is another step forward in improving the position of the ordinary industrial worker by providing him with a greater degree of security than he has ever had before.
  6.51 p.m.
  Mr. Robert Carr: The hon. Member for Leeds, West (Mr. C. Pannell) invited me to go with him on one or two
  1558
  points in connection with automation. I do not think I shall try that, because I have never had the pleasure of working in an automated factory. I spent my early days in a foundry. It was certainly very much rougher than the modern automated factory. There was certainly plenty of smoke, but there was also plenty of life and spirit. From my experience in the foundry, I can see that the automated factory has some advantages and attractions, as well as dangers. I do not think that we should do much good if we underlined too greatly some of the frustrations and dangers which can arise in modern factories. They certainly need to be taken care of, but I am sure that they can be.
  When the hon. Gentleman spoke about the collective memory of trade unions and those who work in factories, I am sure that he was saying something of which we all ought to take great notice. I cannot compete with the hon. Gentleman in his experience of these matters. I did however, spend four or five of my early industrial years as a foreman, and I noticed that several people remarked how important a foreman was in industry. From that experience I understand what the hon. Gentleman and others meant when they referred to the collective memory, psychology, and atmosphere, which exists among workers on the factory floor.
  It has always seemed to me that one of the characteristics which stood out most about the senior jobs in industry, the top levels of management, was that those who held them were given pretty specific and usually written terms about their pay, their privileges, the circumstances in which they could be dismissed, and how they could be dismissed. It has always seemed to me equally clear that one of the chief characteristics of the lower ranks of industry was the absence of such precision and such knowledge of terms. I have, therefore, always thought that one of the most important things that we could do—it may be a limited thing but it is nevertheless important—would be to give to all who work in industry the status which comes from precise knowledge of the terms of employment and conditions in which they can be lost. It is in that spirit that I believe this to be an important Bill, and an important addition to our attempts to improve human relations in industry.

  1559
  Its field may be limited, but it is important, and to those who belittle it—and it seems a pity that hon. Gentlemen opposite have chosen to belittle the Bill as they have done—I should like to point to the practice of the principles enshrined in this Bill in so many of the leading firms in this country. Surely there we have practical proof of the value of what we are trying to do. Many of the firms in this country which are most successful both in terms of industrial results, in producing good products and selling in the export market, and so on, and of industrial relations, practice what we are dealing with in this Bill.
  Sir Spencer Summers: Is my hon. Friend suggesting that good employers demand longer notice on their part for the longer service they give?
  Mr. Carr: If my hon. Friend will allow me, I shall come to that, and we shall find ourselves in agreement about it.
  I find myself rather puzzled by the official opposition of employers in this country. As a managing director of a fairly sizeable company in this country, I am, I suppose, an employer myself, and therefore any criticism of employers comes better from my mouth than it does from other quarters. I have read the statement issued yesterday by the British Employers' Confederation. It says that it has urged its members that employers should accept the desirability of ensuring the sort of principles we are talking about. It goes on to say that a good deal of progress has already been made in this direction. But has it? The very fact that my right hon. Friend has brought in this Bill is proof that much too little progress has been made.
  At the end of their statement they say:
  "It now appears that the Government considers the progress towards longer notice has been too slow In the Confederation's view the proper course is for the Government to say so and give employers and workers an opportunity of adjusting their agreements."
  I find it difficult to believe that the British Employers' Confederation needed telling. I find it difficult to believe that it did not know without being told.
  One of the planks of the Conservative Party when returned to power—though
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  perhaps not one of the major planks—was to do something about what we called the Workers' Charter. The British Employers' Confederation and the Trades Union Congress were approached, I am sure, by Lord Monckton when he was Minister of Labour, and I do not doubt that they were approached by later Ministers of Labour. It cannot be news to them that we have wanted to see progress in this field, and that we have been dissatisfied with the progress so far. It cannot be news to them that on the occasions of these previous approaches we gave way to the request that this should be done by voluntary means and that we should leave it to both sides of industry to get on with it. It is because we have tried that approach several times and after a decade found progress on the whole so miserable, that we have had to act in this way.
  Mr. R. E. Prentice: This is an extraordinary line of criticism. Would the hon. Gentleman agree that neither the employers nor the trade unions can be blamed for having forgotten this system, remembering that the Workers' Charter was produced in 1947, the hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friends came into power in 1951, and are legislating now, in 1963?
  Mr. Carr: That is the whole point of my criticism. We went to the employers and the trade unions when we first got into power. They said, "Do not do it this way, leave it to us". We let it go on for a few years, and went to them again. Once more they said, "Do not do it this way, leave it to us". Still too little happened and so at last we are doing something about it.
  Mr. John Robertson: I assume that the hon. Gentleman is in the foundry industry. Has he used his influence with the Engineering Employers' Association, or the National Engineering and Allied Employers' Association to get this kind of agreement? Has he done anything in regard to this? What does the hon. Gentleman do in his own factory?
  Mr. Carr: My company is not a member of the association of which the hon. Member speaks, but if he wishes I can show him the kind of booklet, setting out the terms of service, which my firm has used for some time.

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  There is one other point which we ought to bear in mind. I say, with respect, and in no aggressive spirit, both to the British Employers' Confederation and the Trades Union Congress that there are hundreds and probably thousands of employers who are not members of any association forming part of the British Employers' Confederation, so that even if the Confederation persuaded the great majority of its members to do these things, hundreds and thousands of employers would still not be covered. Similarly, millions of workers are not members of trade unions. That may be bad, but it is still a fact. Therefore, merely to leave this problem of employment to organised labour and organised employers would mean that we would be taking no account of a large section of employees.
  As drafted at the moment, the Bill has many defects. I agree wholeheartedly with some of the criticisms made by the British Employers' Confederation. Having criticised it, I now want to say that I agree with many of the points it makes, although they seem to me to be points which can be dealt with by Amendment, rather than by way of fundamental opposition to the Bill. It is claimed that one of the Bill's main purposes is to lay down a minimum period of notice. But the Bill does not do that. It lays down a minimum period of notice only for people who have been in employment with the same employer for more than two years. As several other hon. Members have already said, this means that we shall be leaving out many workers. To quote from the January edition of The Times Review of Industry: the Bill is
  "a scrap of paper as far as the worst affected industries are concerned. In building and shipbuilding most labour is casual and the average length of employment with one firm is about six months."
  It is wrong that the Bill should leave out all these people. It ought to include a provision making one week the normal minimum period of notice for all employees in all industries, regardless of the length of time they have served with one employer or in one industry.
  There may well have to be some exceptions, but Clause 5 already deals with exceptions. I hope that my right hon. Friend will consider whether the Clause as it stands should be scrapped. I think that it should be replaced by
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  general powers given to the Minister of Labour to make exceptions by Orders, which would have to come before the House.
  I say that because Acts of Parliament have a habit of remaining unamended for a long time. One of the industries which Clause 5 specifies for exemption is the dock industry. In present conditions that may be correct, but I hope that in the not too distant future we shall be able to make substantial further progress towards the decasualisation of the industry. If and when we do that we do not want to see that part of it which is decasualised excluded from the Bill under the provisions of Clause 5.
  Then there is the reciprocal obligation imposed upon employees to give notice. The Bill lays down two scales of notice for long-service employees. It provides that employees should give the same notice to their employers as they are entitled to receive. As several other hon. Members have said, in its present form that provision is both unenforceable and wrong in principle. If we were to adopt the suggestion that there should be a one-week's minimum notice for all employees in all industries, it would be reasonable to say that the employee should also give one week's notice. That would be a reasonable countervailing obligation.
  The longer periods of notice provided for in the Bill seem to me to be given to workers as a privilege, in return for long service. If that is so, it is absurd in the extreme to give that privilege with one hand and then to place an unfair obligation upon the individual employee with the other. I support those hon. Members on both sides of the House who have pleaded with my right hon. Friend to amend the Bill so as to take care of that point.
  The Bill lays down two periods of notice to be given in return for long service. There is a period of two weeks' notice for those employees who have served between two and five years, and a period of four weeks' notice for those who have served for longer than five years. I suggest that there should be a third period of notice of eight weeks in respect of those who have had continuous employment with the same firm for more than 15 years. I have chosen an arbitrary figure, but I suggest that there

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  should be a third period of notice to take care of really long-service employment.
  In Clause 2 (4) the Bill refers to severance payments. It provides that the employer's liability to pay in respect of the length of notice shall be reduced by the extent of any agreement he may have with his employees in respect of severance pay. This also seems to be wrong in principle. I agree with other hon. Members who have said that the idea behind the Bill is that a man should be given warning before he loses his job. The practice should be encouraged that a man should continue to work during the period of that warning, unless he leaves, by agreement, to go to another job.
  It would seem right, therefore, to provide a clear distinction between the payments to which an employee is entitled while he is working out his notice and any payment which he may receive under an agreement on the actual termination of his employment. These seem to be entirely separate things, and it is wrong in principle that the Bill should first confuse them and then refuse employees the full benefit by subtracting one from the other.
  It is right in principle that an employee should be required to give notice of strike action. I do not say that we should expect great changes as a result of this, but we should lay down that any employee should give some notice of strike action. We cannot ignore the situations created by wildcat strikes, and whenever we are acting in this field we should keep this principle in mind.
  Dr. Jeremy Bray: Will the hon. Member say whether he thinks it desirable to make this an addendum to new provisions dealing, perhaps, with continuity of employment, or would he prefer to see it done by direct legislation?
  Mr. Carr: I had better not go into the question of direct legislation, but I do not see anything wrong about including such a provision in the Bill. What is ridiculous is to say that different workers in the same firm should give different periods of notice. That cannot work in practice, and must be changed.
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  One factor is almost more important than the question of the number of days' notice. It seems to me that the giving of notice of a strike in no way absolves a man from honouring a negotiated agreement concerning procedures to deal with an industrial dispute. I would wish to see this subsection including an alternative condition. First and foremost, the condition of maintaining continuity of employment in this respect ought to be that a man should honour any collective bargain to which he is a party. The alternative requirement for men who may not be under any agreement which includes procedural processes for dealing with disputes should be 14 days' notice of strike regardless of the length of service.
  I feel that the present provision which lays down that absence through sickness and injury exceeding six weeks should break continuity is unduly harsh. The period ought to be increased to 12 weeks.
  The other point which I should like my right hon. Friend to consider is this. At the moment the Bill requires the employer to give written terms of employment to each employee after five weeks. I believe that is rather too short a term. It should either be given right at the beginning of the period of employment or much later. I heard the point made by the hon. Member for Southwark (Mr. Gunter) and I know what he had in mind. I have another point in mind. I have another point in mind which I consider worthy of consideration.
  We all know that there is liable to be a big turnover of labour in the first few weeks of employment. That is natural because the workers do not know immediately whether they will like the job or the employer and vice versa. There is also the problem of seasonal workers as, for example, in agriculture and in other industries. When somebody joins an employer he must know at the outset the minimum about his terms of employment, and he does so already without the need for these written terms which we are considering. I think that there is value in having full written terms containing more than basic information, but I suggest that they should only have to be provided after 13 weeks, rather than five. That would help a lot of employers to reduce the work involved. What is more

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  important, it would encourage employers to take more trouble in providing, in the written terms of agreement, the sort of information which is helpful. If the time limit is shorter there would be a tendency to do this in the simplest and meannest sort of way possible to comply with the law.
  I wish to conclude by saying something about the views of those who would like to see this Measure become much bigger. I believe that to be a mistaken view. There are those who would like this Bill to be made an instrument for dealing with some of the fundamental problems of trade unions, their responsibilities and rights, strikes, and the rest of it. It is not possible to do that through this Bill. This is and should remain a Measure designed to deal with individual personal relations between employees and employers. As soon as we enter the field of major problems in industrial relations—strikes and the like—we begin to deal with the rights and liabilities of great organisations—organised employers and unions rather than individual workers and employers—and the relations of those organisations to each other and to the State. I suggest that it becomes obvious that this is not an appropriate Measure for that purpose. That does not mean to say that there are not strong arguments for looking into such problems and taking action. But not, please, by means of this Bill.
  There are some hon. Members on both sides of the House who would like to see the length of notice provision extended in proportion to length of service to such an extent that it would become a full scale system of severance payments. I believe that that would make the Bill quite impracticable. It might seem to achieve what some hon. Members have said they desire; but not in the right way. I am all in favour of severance payments. I make no secret of the fact that I believe there should be legislation to deal with the matter. But here again, I do not think that it should be done by means of this Bill. If we make the length of warning of the termination of employment too long, inevitably more employers will be pressed to pay what they owe in lieu of notice.
  I do not think that any payment makes up to a man or a woman for the indignity of having to go home and say that they have lost their job at a moment's notice.
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  So I wish to keep the period of warning to a practical length and not to make it so long that more and more employees will give short notice and pay in lieu of giving longer notice. I do not believe that we ought to extend the length of notice to the point where, in practice, it would provide severance pay. In any event, I am doubtful whether severance pay could be dealt with on the basis of individual workers and employers. If we are to have a system of severance pay it will probably have to be dealt with on a national basis.
  For these reasons I think that it would be wrong to try to extend the provisions of this Bill to embrace these wider matters. They are of importance, but are not fit subjects for this Bill. While this Measure may deal with a limited field, I believe it to be important. It needs amending, but I think that after it is amended the time will come when some hon. Members will regret the grudging and belittling things which they have had to say about it.
  7.16 p.m.
  Mr. Arthur Probert: The hon. Member for Mitcham (Mr. R. Carr) began by criticising hon. Members on this side of the House for having belittled this Bill. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman could not have listened with attention to the speech which was made by his hon. Friend the Member for Esher (Sir W. Robson Brown). The hon. Member for Esher made a speech which I consider to be a most damning indictment of the Bill. I pay tribute to the hon. Gentleman, although he is not at this moment in the Chamber. He, as are many hon. Members opposite, is held in respect by hon. Members on this side of the House as one of our most modern employers. And if this Bill is intended to legislate for the bad employers it is a miserable failure.
  When I first heard about this Bill I must confess that I viewed the intention of the Government with incredulity. I did not expect such a Bill to be introduced. It is seventeen years since we heard about the Conservative Party's much vaunted Workers' Charter, and if, after a period of gestation extending over seventeen years, this is all they can produce I think that the Government should have another try. One responsible newspaper has said that this Bill is a

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  "mouse". I do not view it in that light. One may infer from that expression that the Bill is a little, innocent Measure. But mice can be very dangerous and do a great deal of damage.
  I think it fair to assume that after seventeen years of consideration of these problems a Conservative Government could have produced something upon which both employers and employees could have agreed; something constructive and forward-looking which would be a basis on which during the Committee stage discussions we might be able to produce something helpful to industry. I regret to say that what we find is to my mind—and apparently in the opinion of other hon. Members, including the hon. Member for Mitcham—something which is wholly unworkable.
  I have here a letter which I received this morning from the Urban District Councils Association. In order to save time I will not read it all. But the letter states:
  "With this in mind the Executive Council is of opinion that the Bill imposes additional administrative and financial burdens on local authorities which cannot be justified by the results sought to be achieved. It is strongly urged on behalf of the Association that the employees of local authorities should be exempted from those categories to be covered by the Bill."
  That is a letter from a responsible association and if we do what it asks, if we erode much more the number of employees to whom the Bill will apply, we shall find that its provisions would cover very few of the insurable population.
  I find it difficult not to oppose the Second Reading of this Bill and I should like to make that plain. I wish that we were going into the Division Lobbies to oppose it. It is obvious that during the Committee stage discussions there will have to be a lot of alterations made to this Bill, and I hope that finally the Minister may be able to produce something far different from the Measure as it has been drafted. Much more mercifully for the Minister, it would be better if the Government did not find time for the Committee stage.
  I am very suspicious when a Conservative Government attempt to legislate on any matters relating to industrial relations. Over a period of years this country has built up powerful, effective and responsible trade unions. I belong to one—the Transport and General Workers'
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  Union, with 1,300,000 members, covering a vast field. There are other powerful unions which are of equal standing. My hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, West (Mr. C. Pannell) mentioned the A.E.U.
  If the Minister wanted to deal with the matter effectively, he should have called for the expert opinion of the responsible officers of these unions. He should also have called for the expert opinion of some of his bon. Friends who have spoken tonight. They would have advised him to a very different effect from that seen in the Bill. Those who have advised the right hon. Gentleman have not got the faintest conception of what industrial relations mean and the effects of the Bill, if it becomes law, on workers generally. Hon. Members on both sides feel a great deal of sympathy for the Minister because—I do not say this in any patronising way—we all consider him to be quite a decent Minister and a decent chap. He is the victim of circumstances. It is rather a pity that he accepted the Measure in its present form.
  The Bill is woefully inadequate. I shall not deal with all the points I had intended to deal with, because I know that many other hon. Members want to express their view. This is a thin smokescreen to cover a feeble attempt at legislation against strikes. If it is the intention of the Government to legislate against strikes, they should be frank with the House of Commons and debate the problem on the Floor of the House. We on this side, who represent employees as well as employers, have nothing to hide in relation to strikes. I was touched by the reference of my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, West to strikes and victimisation in the old days. I remember when I was travelling to school in my constituency seeing the daily spectacle of three hundred policemen guarding one blackleg—this happened day after day—who was going to work when his comrades were literally starving. I am not exaggerating. This is the truth. If the Government think men like that will be irresponsible in taking strike action, the Minister, his hon. Friends and those who advise the Minister should think again. The obligation on employees to give four weeks' notice or two weeks' notice will not stop strikes.
  Millions of workers will be outside the scope of the Bill, because they rarely

  1569
  work for employers for two years. If the Bill becomes law, this will constitute a serious discrimination against large numbers of workers. I am thinking of the building and civil engineering industry. As my hon. Friend the Member for Southwark (Mr. Gunter) said, in many of the great projects which are under construction at present specialists, and even manual workers, take part in three stages of the work. They are never employed by the same firm for a period of over two years. These people will be excluded from the provisions of the Bill.
  Mr. Nicholas Ridley: As a civil engineering employer, I cannot accept this. A large number of workers in that industry remain for the whole of their lives with the same firm.
  Mr. Probert: Because I wanted to save time I did not detail some figures I have. However, I will now give some statistics very shortly. I am advised that only 6 per cent. of those employed in the building and civil engineering industry are engaged on works lasting over two years.
  Mr. Hare: My advice is very much to the contrary.
  Mr. Probert: My advice comes from very authoritative trade union sources. In ship-repair work I know of instances of workers who have worked for four separate employers in three days. This makes the whole situation ridiculous. I ask hon. Members to think of a man who works eighteen or nineteen months for one employer and then receives a week's notice or two weeks' notice. He finds work immediately and works for eighteen months for another employer. This can go on for the rest of his life. He will never come within the provisions of the Bill. This is farcical.
  It is absolutely unfair to employees to impose upon them a contractual obligation to give two or more weeks' notice when they wish to leave. There is no reciprocity or equality of treatment in this. There is very widespread criticism of this provision. The employer may have for long expected that he would have to give notice to his employees, but an employee may have a chance of rapid promotion in another job if he can take the job immediately. It can affect his
  1570
  whole life, adversely or otherwise. He is denied that opportunity of bettering himself because of this contractual obligation. It is no good arguing that a good employer will release him. We do not want this contractual obligation.
  I could have dealt with several other points, but I shall sit down now so as to give other hon. Members time. If the Minister is sincere in his endeavours to create better conditions for employees and improved relations between the two sides of industry, he must radically alter the Bill or face severe criticism. Although I think that he is the innocent victim, it is he who will be pilloried in Committee and not those who advise him.
  7.28 p.m.
  Sir Spencer Summers: When I first read the Bill, I was very disappointed with the interpretation placed by the Government on their desire to fulfil the Workers' Charter. It could be that one would feel the same way after listening to the debate, but I feel much better about the Bill now that I have listened to the debate than I did before it began. It is clear that there are very strong views on both sides of the House about the nature of the changes which are called for, and these may make it an infinitely better Bill and one with which we can be much better pleased than I ever thought would be possible when we first began.
  Two hon. Members opposite have sought to under-rate the Bill by suggesting that it is an election gimmick; then for the rest of their speeches they sought to tear the Bill to pieces and show what a puny little Bill it is. They had better make up their minds whether this is a world-beater which will win us the next election or whether it is so useless that it will fail in its purpose. They cannot have it both ways.
  Reference has been made several times to the reciprocity of obligation upon employer and employee. I want to register my very firm conviction that it is a profound mistake to place upon the employee comparable obligations to those it is reasonable to place upon the employer. I do not say that the reasons advanced by hon. Members opposite regarding the position of a man vis-à-vis his family and that of his employer are necessarily unsound. I do say, however, that they are by no means conclusive.

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  The conclusive argument is this. If it is right for the employer to recognise long service by giving ample notice of his intention to dispense with the man's services, then that in itself is the bargain. Long service, long notice, that is the bargain, and if it is thought to bring into the argument a quid pro quo from the man, then the value of the long service ceases to have that value. All it is doing is introducing a third side to an argument when, in fact, there are really only two sides.
  I am not too happy with some of the Bill's wording in the sense that a long service man is deemed to be a man who has been for five years with the same firm. I was brought up in an industry in which five years was looked upon as little more than an apprenticeship. It is a pity to lay down five years as being the period for earning the maximum privileges.
  Reference has been made to reciprocity and it being unreasonable that the longer a man works for a firm the longer he must stick to it when he wishes to move, in the process perhaps prejudicing his chances of another house, another job, and so on. Long service should not be penalised in that sense. In this connection I would like to stress what was said earlier by my hon. Friend the Member for Mitcham (Mr. R. Carr) about there being one week's notice so that everyone in, say, a factory is on the same basis and knows where he stands.
  The Minister referred to the possibility of employers being permitted—perhaps by later Amendment of the Bill—to contract out of some of these arrangements if the two sides of industry were able to agree on other arrangements. I was not quite clear whether my right hon. Friend would he prepared, in this context, to accept an agreement between two sides if that agreement represented less than what was called for in the Bill. In any case, I do not like this idea of contracting out.
  Mr. Hare: I said that I might be prepared to consider suggestions as long as the employee did not receive less notice than he would be entitled to under the Bill.
  Sir S. Summers: I hesitate to use a word which is sometimes used in another context, but I am a little suspicious of
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  the phrase "contracting out" because I thought the Bill purported to record minimum terms which others were encouraged to improve on. It must be remembered that one contracts out of harsh things and, for this reason, the phrase "contracting out" seems rather out of place in a Bill which records minimum terms.
  Reference has also been made to the mixture of ideas which seem to find expression in the Bill; important concessions for the worker and important concessions which can be forfeited if his behaviour does not conform with the obligations laid down in the Measure. This is, in a sense, an attempt to deter men from lightning strikes on the ground that they will forfeit certain rights which they have earned. The hon. Member for Southwark (Mr. Gunter), whose speech I enjoyed almost completely, pointed out that this would not deter men from doing this because, in the heat of the moment, they would not think of these things. Perhaps so, but apart from whether or not the moment is hot, the prize is too small to weigh against the circumstances in which these decisions are taken.
  My next point is linked with this, for suggestions have been made about severance pay and I must admit that I have always regretted that provisions for severance payments have not been included in the Bill. If the rewards for long service and for the assistance to deal with redundancy are to be greatly strengthened, it is right to say that lightning strikes shall be deemed to forfeit the extra benefits. Whether or not that will succeed I do not know, and I hope that hon. Members with more experience of the way men's minds work in these circumstances will let me know. It would be interesting to discover whether this would deter and if forfeiture is really realistic.
  This is also wrapped up with the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Mitcham about introducing this sort of concept into the Bill when we are really concerned only with improving conditions of employment. It has already been stated that if severance payments are to come in other things will automatically come in and that the two together are best out rather than in. However, this is an important matter

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  which needs to be considered; the question of reciprocity on both sides and the amount of notice that shall be given. There are, undoubtedly, many forms of casual labour, particularly in agriculture, which would rather be excluded than be dealt with under the Bill. Those concerned will be suspicious of written terms of employment which they have never had, never asked for and consider would be better left undone. I do not think that I need elaborate that point.
  On the question of the six months' average, there seems to be a notion that if a man is to be given notice, his pay while still working should relate to the six months' average of the past, by which means he gets recompensed for past services. That is a puny way of recognising past service. Instead of the six months' average he should receive his basic pay for 42 or 46 hours, as the case may be. In any case, he will not be able to check to see if the six months' average is being enforced and whether the records of his employer relate to that average because he will probably have thrown away his pay dockets and will be unable to work the average out.
  This problem does not arise when we consider holidays. We do not say that holidays with pay shall be so many weeks averaged over the last six months, so why should we say, in this context, that any average of the past is called for? This is particularly questionable when we know that it is almost guaranteed that the rate for the job when carried out over four weeks will not be the correct one if it is related to the past, with bonus payments, and so on.
  A great deal of clerical work will be called for for no sufficient reason and I beg the Minister to consider some other formula which will see that justice is done and that the man will more easily be able to see that justice is being done to him. A basic pay formula for a certain number of hours should be worked out, and that would solve the problem.
  Another point very cogently put by my hon. Friend the Member for Mitcham related to the written particulars of the job, and whether we were wise to choose five weeks as the period after which the man shall receive his written contract of employment. From
  1574
  a practical point of view, I do not think that such a period is desirable. This contract could with advantage be given later on when, for instance, a man would have a much better chance to see whether what was written on the paper was reasonable. He could then consult his friends, and so on, and the acceptance of the contract at that stage would carry more conviction with him than if it were done before he walks into what might be an entirely strange shop.
  When it comes to changes in the man's conditions, it is said that he will need another document, but in order to avoid too many documents going to too many people at too frequent intervals, the Bill gives permission for reference to be made to some notice posted in an appropriate place. That is all right up to a point, but I wonder whether such a statement as this given to a man will be regarded as a reasonable interpretation of the Bill.
  Possible terms that might be used are: "The rates, terms and conditions of your employment will be in accordance with the current provisions of the working rule agreement applicable to the contract under which you are currently employed, etc." The man is told that he can see that agreement in some place. But if such reference to a long and complicated document, covering, perhaps, two pages, and agreed between the two sides will suffice a great deal of this need will disappear.
  I hope that, as has been suggested, the Minister will take powers to vary the types of occupation to be excluded. Some might be excluded at the beginning, and brought in again later. Some types that we may wish to segregate from the application of the Bill now may not be appropriate for segregation in four or live years' time, and we should not need the whole apparatus of a new Bill to bring our ideas more up to date.
  There is the question of how far we should seek to deal with strikes through legislation and, in particular, through the forfeiture of privileges such as the Bill confers. One frequently hears the phrase, "We must do something about unofficial strikes," but I do not think that it is a tenable proposition to tell a man, "If you strike without the blessing of your trade union official you will be in trouble with the law. If, however, you

  1575
  can get his consent to what you are doing, you will be all right."
  The loose phrase "unofficial strike" is frequently used without proper thought being given to what it implies. It implies the right of the trade union official to put the man within the law, so I hope that we shall hear no more in this House, whatever may be said outside it, of an attempt to deal with an unofficial strike separately from other kinds of strikes.
  Life being what it is, however, it may be possible to deal with them separately without actually saying so. That might be done by saying, "If you don't give seven days' notice of intention to break the contract you will be in trouble with the law, irrespective of on whose authority it is done." I think that the hon. Member for Southwark will agree that it is very rare for an official strike to be mobilised at less than seven days' notice. Therefore, strikes mobilised at less than seven days' notice will almost inevitably take place without the authority of the union. They should be identified by the period of notice and not by the nature of the authority on which the action was taken. I therefore hope that any attempt to deal with this matter will be related to the length of notice.
  I hope that nobody will be too ambitious about this. I am sure that I do not need to remind people who are even more familiar than I am with it, that this subject is a very delicate one. Fears, and past memories—of which we have heard so much today—are aroused. I was very glad to hear the hon. Member for Southwark say that if the trade unions do not put their house in order he, for one, would not be surprised, and could not complain, if more drastic steps were taken.
  I find the temper of the public getting much sharper on this subject. People's patience is nearly exhausted. I do not know how much longer they will wait, but many who would have been content two or three years ago to let things take their course and allow the trade unions to put their house in order, are now saying that the unions have had their chance and have not taken it, and they are now pressing for something to be done. This is not the time to talk of sanctions in reference to strikes, but I wanted to bring in that aspect of the
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  whole subject of labour relations by saying that the sands of time are running out very fast, and that if there is not manifestly seen to be action in this sphere, the pressure for appropriate legislation will become irrestible.
  7.46 p.m.
  Mr. John Robertson: It never ceases to astonish me how reasonable and progressive individual employers are socially and away from the conference table, and yet how they can suddenly become reactionary and difficult at the place that matters when agreements are being made. The House has heard a great deal in the last six months about trade union attitudes—and a great deal of nonsense.
  It must be understood that trade union attitudes are very largely reactions to the activities of managements. It is one of the facts of factory life. In the engineering industry in particular, as long as there is an insistence by management to initiate action without any discussion whatsoever, the trade union will continue to be a defence mechanism, and will be shaped to teat end.
  We have heard of the power and influence of shop stewards. That power and influence extends, of course, far beyond any given factory—and often into unofficial channels—but it derives not from the inherent weakness of the trade unions but from the need for quick and effective action on the factory floor to meet the attacks of management. Let there be no mistake about it—that is why today the shop steward is powerful in the factory.
  If one raises the subject of consultation with an employers' federation, the usual reply is that managements have to take immediate action and that, in any case, if they have to discuss matters with shop stewards and trade union officials they will never get the work done. They never produce evidence to show that this is so because it has never, or not often, been tried. Indeed, the engineering and allied employers' national federation and its local associations refuse, as a matter of principle, to countenance any such development and effectively put a stop to any attempt being made.
  There is in the engineering industry no machinery for conciliation or discussion for the sorting out of problems which

  1577
  might arise. This situation is based on the agreement made after the lock-out in 1921 when the unions were defeated. Management has the right to manage its establishments, and the unions have the right to exercise their function. Translated into everyday terms, this means that management has the right to take any decision it cares to take and the unions have the right to protest. That is the situation which we still have in the engineering industry. I myself have had occasion to try to discuss with the employers a foreseeable event. I have claimed the right to discuss it, but I have been refused by the employers' association. It is about time that we got the facts right.
  It is noteworthy that, in the industries where attempts have been made to have continuing discussions on all matters affecting the workpeople, there have been exemplary industrial relations. One thinks of Vauxhall and I.C.I., but I could go through a list of companies where there have never been strikes and where it seems that there never will be any because management treats the unions in a proper way, consulting them, not waiting until something happens and then trying to anticipate the reaction of shop stewards. This is the sort of thing which is wrong in industry, and this is why there are strikes.
  It is wrong to imagine that the majority of unofficial strikes occur in defiance of the trade union. They are unofficial only in point of time. I will give the House an instance which occurred in 1955. I was then a union official, and I had occasion to go to Greenock to meet some of my members. I was informed that a situation existed in a shipyard there where fitters' mates were being paid more than the fitters—an impossible state of affairs. It could not happen, I thought, but happen it did. I thought that all that was required was a conference with the employers. I sought a conference, and, after three weeks, I had a conference, a yard conference, with the employers' association representative, management representatives, and the shop steward. I put the case, saying how preposterous it was that a fitter's mate should be paid more than the fitter.
  I could not get settlement at that time. After another month, I went to the association again stressing the preposterous situation in the Greenock shipyard.
  1578
  Still I could not get a settlement. But we had a two-day strike, and we got a settlement. Will anyone tell me that we should have had the strike right away and saved all the trouble?
  Another injustice was that we did not get retrospective payment. This is typical. If a quick settlement is not reached, if one goes through the procedure for a year or a year and a half, there is never a settlement going back to the date of the claim. It is a point of principle for the engineering employers not to agree to this. Is it any wonder that people go on strike sometimes? They go on strike in order to get a just grievance settled quickly.
  Most strikes, of course, are not premeditated; they arise as a quick reaction to a deliberate act of management. I realise that this does not cover all strikes. There have been, and there will be, stupid strikes. There have been strikes started by people just for the sake of creating trouble. I know this; I have experienced it. But to say that all strikes are like that is to shut one's eyes to the truth and refuse to face facts.
  If the Minister of Labour really wishes to make a contribution to improving industrial relations, he should seek by legislation to make it obligatory upon employers to consult the trade unions before initiating any industrial action or change in established procedures.
  Now, a word about Clause 4. It never struck me that there was any great dispute about the question of notice of dismissal. Usually, the argument is about the dismissal, not about how long before the dismissal one is told about it. But, perhaps, there is a point that notice of dismissal four weeks beforehand gives time for discussion. I would rather see it provided that the trade unions should be notified in order to give opportunity to discuss the redundancy. There are many ways of dealing with these problems, and management is not always right.
  In my opinion, Clause 4 will play havoc in large sections of industry. I am trying to imagine what would happen in an engineering factory if an employer had to give a written contract of employment covering all the conditions applying to engineering work. It would be a long document, quite frightening in its extent, considering that not only would the agreement book have to be included

  1579
  but all the interpretations which have been made of it over the years, and so forth. It would really be impossible.
  Individual contracts of employment have always been regarded by trade unionists as an anti-trade union stratagem. This was the method sometimes adopted by employers in an effort to break down the influence of the trade union within an establishment. They will be treated with a great deal of suspicion. Indeed, I do not see how this can he carried out in engineering at all.
  In the engineering industry, only two wage rates are negotiated nationally, the skilled rate and the labourer's rate. More than 60 per cent. of the workers are not covered by national negotiation for wage rates at all. Their rates are negotiated locally in the district or factory between shop stewards and management, and they are subject to constant change depending upon the altered circumstances of the job, and so forth. In other words, the bulk of rates in engineering are always in a state of flux. Negotiations are always going on about them. I can see a danger in trying to put it all down on a piece of paper.
  What would be the situation if an individual worker made a contract with the employer which was less favourable than the wages and conditions negotiated by a shop steward within the shop for that particular job? Is there anything to prevent worker and management coming to such an agreement if there is not a national agreement on wages and conditions? I can see nothing to prevent it, but it will need a great deal of encouragement in the shop.
  What should be written in the Bill is a guarantee that individual contracts in the establishment conform to the wages and conditions negotiated by the union in that establishment for all the jobs in the establishment. It may be possible in Committee to find some words which will ensure that the union agreements operating in that establishment apply to any contract which may be made and that they lay down minimum conditions. I do not know how such a contract would be upheld legally if it were taken to a court of law. I do not know how one would get over an individual making a contract contrary to the union agreement.
  1580
  I can see no safeguard against that, but perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will say a few words about this later.
  A condition requiring individual written contracts of employment would place an almost impossible burden on employers. I do not see how they could deal with it. The law would be recognised in the breach or workers would be handed a trade union booklet when they went into the factory. There is always this difficulty. It is not good to pass laws which will be ignored. This is what is wrong with the Bill. If employers and trade unions believed that the Bill meant anything at all there would have been an uproar. Because they believe that its provisions will not be applied in industry, they are doing very little about it.
  There must be in the Bill a condition that the unions—shop stewards and union officials—have the right to negotiate an alteration in individual contracts of employment. A contract might have been made at a time when a shop was nonunion. If the workers in the shop became organised, there must then obviously be a right for the union to deal with individual contracts.
  The Bill refers to an expiry date for contracts. If a contract contains an expiry date, presumably no alteration can be made before that date, or, at least, the employer could refuse to alter it before that date except by agreement with the individual with whom the contract was made. The unions must have protection in this respect. They must have the right at all times to alter individual contracts.
  What is needed is legislation which will put the unions into the factory as of right. Far too much trouble arises from the struggle of the unions to establish their right to be in the factory. We have been talking about the selection of shop stewards. Because of the problems which the shop steward meets from management and sometimes from the workpeople because of the semiofficial position which he occupies, the person who is usually elected a shop steward is the person most likely to fight the management. This is the primary qualification—an ability to fight the management, as I know from experience. He has to stand up to the management. If this were not so, we might have shop stewards who were able to

  1581
  make agreements with management and we might have less trouble in the factory.
  I should like to think that the Bill will make a contribution in industrial relations and will give some security to the worker. I am afraid that unless it is altered considerably in Committee it will never do that. That is rather a pity, since I believe, and have always believed, that the Minister, his predecessors in office, and particularly the men in the Minister's industrial relations department have over the years been trying to do a very good job, often in very difficult circumstances. It is a pity that the so-called Workers' Charter should be such a puny little Bill as this. I do not think that it will do anything at all to assist in this matter. In fact, there is little good in it, and I can see a great deal in it that is dangerous.
  8.6 p.m.
  Miss Harvie Anderson: I hope that the hon. Member for Paisley (Mr. J. Robertson) will forgive me if I do not follow his somewhat reactionary speech. It was in marked contrast to the speech of the hon. Member for Southwark (Mr. Gunter).
  I welcome the Bill because it is a step in the right direction, although I do not consider that it goes far enough. It raises some hopes and some fears. The first hope is for the security of the individual, which I think we all must respect. I think that hon. Members on both sides of the House agree and acknowledge that there is at present a considerable brake, perhaps a psychological brake, on productivity. We are not agreed on all the factors which cause this feeling of insecurity, but I think that insecurity is undoubtedly a factor which contributes to the present uncertainty. Anything that we can do to reduce this feeling of insecurity is valuable.
  Any man or woman earning a good wage, which most people have been doing certainly until very recent times, has the right to spend this in the way that he or she wishes and to live well. The change in their circumstances is the sharper if redundancy occurs. Regrettable though it may seem to thrifty Scots, saving is not yet practised by all families in the land, although there has been a very marked increase in the last ten years. The Bill offers something to a man and his family
  1582
  to fall back on, but the security which we seek to offer through the Bill is insufficient because it is too little in real terms.
  I am one who advocated in the House a national redundancy policy. I think that this is overdue, and I should very much like to see such a policy introduced. But, at the same time, I have a certain understanding of the point of view expressed by my hon. Friend the Member for Mitcham (Mr. R. Carr), who suggested that the Bill might not be the place for that. Certainly the scheme that I envisage is deserving of a Bill of its own.
  I have great sympathy with the Bill presented by the hon. Member for Gloucester (Mr. Diamond), but I should like to put on record a confusion of thought. My confusion of thought arises from the fact that I, and I believe many other hon. Members, seek to give a redundant man or woman and their family a realistic sum of money which can sustain them in a situation which we all deplore. I am not happy in thinking that this can be done through an extension of the length of time of notice such as that suggested in the contract of service which we are considering today. If this is not extended, the need for a national redundancy policy is the more urgent.
  I regard the provision in the Bill dealing with sickness as inadequate and harsh. When male members of the House of Commons fall sick, they are apt to rush home to be cossetted by their female relatives and they do not entirely appreciate the difficulties which a long term of sickness on the part of the breadwinner brings to a housewife or the difficulties with which she is faced. We should, therefore, try to extend in more generous terms our regard for genuine illness, concerning which the Bill is somewhat harsh.
  I should like briefly to turn to the repercussions upon a family of the sudden severance of employment. After fifteen years' service, a man may be about 35 years of age. If he has four or five children, the eldest child or children will be at the very stage when financial security in the home is most essential. So often have I seen the temptation for the eldest child of the family to go out and earn money, to come back and pay the instalment on the television or on the settee, or to buy a lipstick for herself—this is quite understandable—rather

  1583
  than to seek, as we would wish, further education and go on to a qualification that would lead to a much higher pay packet in the years to come. We should, therefore, think of the repercussions in terms of the home and of the young people in it and realise that the Bill's provisions in hard cash go only a short way to meet the realities of that sort of situation.
  I am glad that my right hon. Friend the Minister drew attention to the increased schemes for retraining. The sum of money which many of us wish to find provided in the Bill is a sum that would sustain a family which is faced with greatly reduced circumstances and which would tide them over until another job is found or until the breadwinner is retrained.
  That explains why some of us seek to extend the money which should be available to a week's wages for every year of service, our belief being—to take a notional figure—that a sum of £400 would be realistic in terms of the difficulties which I have tried briefly to describe. But if we can achieve through this Bill even a small step towards greater individual security, it is certainly right that we should try to balance this as a contract between the employer and the employee, although I have much sympathy with what the right hon. Member for Southwark said on this point. The will to accept the contract exists—and here I differ absolutely from the hon. Member for Paisley—unless it is curbed for dubious reasons by unscrupulous persons.
  We seek to reduce the fear of insecurity in the hope that there will be a rising sense of responsibility towards work. This must include much greater eagerness than we have yet seen for progressive change, for better workmanship and for higher productivity.
  Now I turn for a moment to the two fears which have been expressed in this debate and which I have heard expressed outside the House of Commons. The first is the fear that the contracts dealt with in the Bill cannot, or will not, be enforced. There is doubt in many minds about the four-week notice. It does not seem to any of us who have any connections with industry to be realistic. A man who is declared redundant ought to be free to find himself another job if
  1584
  it is possible for him to do so. Those of us from Clydeside have first-hand evidence of the necessity for this.
  I believe that the four-week provision would be improved if a man were to go by mutual consent when there was no further work for him to do. But he should not be penalised by losing what, for want of a better word, I may describe as the bonus to which he would be entitled by contract for his years of service. We are all too apt to forget that labour invested in a company is as essential as money which is invested in it.
  The second fear arises from the question of how the cost can be met. This fear may be dismissed, because the answer is clear. The percentage of cost added by the payments required by the Bill should easily be carried by a competent firm. I for one am not prepared to seek to legislate for the incompetent. The casual worker referred to in Clause 5 raises real difficulty, but this aspect has been referred to by other hon. Members and I do not wish to occupy the time of the House with it.
  I believe that the Bill will succeed if people want it to succeed. It makes a contribution towards better industrial relations. These are long overdue and we have not succeeded in getting them through free negotiation outside the House of Commons. Many people have talked recently about a national sense of purpose, but that is not something which can come through the Bill or by any other legislation of the House of Commons. It is something which people must find for themselves. A sense of purpose which is found by people of their own free will must always be based on the satisfaction of a day's work well done.
  Man has survived, or has achieved survival, through a sense of responsibility to himself. He has achieved a degree of selective security through his sense of responsibility to his immediate interests. He has yet to achieve a sense of responsibility, at least in peacetime, to a national interest greater than himself. Industrial relations must be improved to this end. From the viewpoint both of the employer and of the trade unions, the Bill, limited though it is, goes some way towards this and it should, therefore, command our support.
  8.20 p.m.
  Mr. Malcolm MacMillan: The hon. Lady the member for Renfrew, East (Miss Harvie Henderson), in her general sentiments about productivity, was quite unexceptionable. However, much of her argument was characteristic of the Tory Party and of her as a member of it.
  Whether a Bill comes as a Private Member's Bill from this side of the House or as a Bill of this kind from the other side of the House, it never is the time to do anything in it by way of radical reform. I remember nearly 27 years ago introducing a Private Member's Bill for two weeks' holiday with pay; and the only arguments adduced from the other side of the House against it were that it was the wrong time to do it and that it should be done in a rather different legislative context. It has been the same story year after year, speech after speech, no matter whether it was a Private Member's Bill from the Opposition side of the House or a Government Bill. Never is it the time to do anything really radical. It has been interesting to see how the few hon. Members opposite who have spoken wholeheartedly—more or less wholeheartedly—in favour of the Bill, or have come down broadly in favour of it, emphasised and approved certain reactionary aspects which I shall deal with later.
  There is, perhaps, one good thing about the Bill. Three sections of the community may well look forward to it with anticipation, licking of lips and patting of pockets—the paper interests, the printers, and the lawyers. My hon. Friend the Member for Paisley (Mr. J. Robertson) forecast masses of paper and voluminous documents for the engineering industry alone which will be required to carry out the provisions of the Bill in relation to the written terms of service and conditions for termination.
  If the Bill goes through as it is now drafted, there is no doubt that it will give rise to masses of litigation. I visualise the trade unions being involved in very great expense. Far from the Bill reducing tension and ill will in industry, we shall have tension and ill will arising even out of the litigation alone; and this will be just about inevitable if the Bill goes through in the present form.
  1586
  However, assuming that the Bill was intended to have, and has, certain advantages, why have so many people been left out of the advantages that it may have? For example, everybody failing to achieve continuity of employment for two years with one firm or employer is left out. Automatically millions of people are, therefore, left out. The Parliamentary Secretary seems unhappy about that suggestion.
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour (Mr. William Whitelaw)indicated dissent.
  Mr. MacMillan: It is true.
  Again, the Bill does not apply to people working fewer than 21 hours per week. But a very large number of people do not work less than 21 hours a week. The Minister's explanation in this respect was that 21 hours was broadly half a working week. But what about the people even in various public services, such as the catering services attached to the department of education—the school meals service, the school canteen service, and so on, to take only one class of employees? As far as I know, none of those work for anything like 21 hours a week. Many other classes of the community are in the same difficulty.
  The hon. Lady the Member for Renfrew, East rightly referred to the very harsh condition about the six weeks' sickness credit or concession. That is something which can be looked at in Committee and I will not labour it now. But that is another feature of the Bill of which the Minister is well aware, and he need not have left it to the Committee stage to be dealt with.
  Again, hon. Member after hon. Member on this side of the House has referred to the harshness of the situation which will be created when more restrictions, new conditions and harsher conditions are imposed upon workers the longer they go on working for any one employer. The employer with two years and upwards of service will have to give two weeks' notice. But the worker with five years' service will have to give four weeks' notice of termination. That is not much of a reward to a worker for loyalty to an employer, or for long service. It is not much reward for the worker to have imposed on him twice the requirement of notice of termination of service

  1587
  required of a person who may hop from one job to another, or have a much shorter period of service with one employer.
  The Minister has lost a very great opportunity to do something really worth while in the interests of the working population generally. Here I refer particularly to severance pay. Millions of workers and others had the impression that the Government were going to do something about severance pay. The propaganda which has emanated no doubt from the Tory head office, rather than from the Government, about this miserable little Bill has rather misled the public into thinking that this was somehow or other to be the equivalent of severance pay. Many people are certainly confused about it. They believed that it meant acceptance by the Government of the principle of severance pay.
  There is one aspect of the problem which I am sorry the Government have not tackled. Let me change now to something which is not in the Bill. I refer to the problem of people who are on the borderline of contract of service or just beyond it, those who are not quite sure whether they are on contract of service or on contract for services. The Parliamentary Secretary will appreciate the point. This affects many tens of thousands of people. I will not put it any higher than that and will not talk in terms of millions; but we legislate for very much smaller numbers than that.
  For example, in me textile industry the problem arises. In millinery, in leatherworking, in the toymaking industry and throughout a large section of the entertainment world it arises also. And that is quite a miscellany for a start. I am surprised that the Minister has not taken more notice of the representations that some of us have made through the years about this problem of the worker who is under not contract of service but contract for services. The technicality is sometimes little more than that; but it means loss of many valuable benefits.
  As to economic status, these people under contract for services are in exactly the same position quite obviously as others working alongside them in other sections of the same industry. To give an example as a constituency point, in the production of Harris tweed—I shall
  1588
  not do any advertising, but the Parliamentary Secretary knows as well as I do that this industry has a world-wide reputation and the product is one of which Scotland has reason to be proud because it is a good dollar earner, quite apart from its tourist attraction—there have been examples of people who work in the mills producing the yarn for a week, month or year and then go as weavers in another section of the industry the following week, month, or year. While working in the mills, they are fully covered by contract of service, come under class I insurance and are employed persons; and when they become unemployed they, therefore, get unemployment insurance benefit; and they are also covered for industrial injuries.
  If they switch to another section of the industry because of a requirement that they should do the weaving process in the production of the textiles away from the factory, they are automatically put outside Class I insurance and are automatically regarded as self-employed, and they pay a higher weekly contribution but get no unemployment insurance benefit and are not covered for industrial injuries. They are now under "contract for services". This applies to many others than those in my constituency of whom I have been speaking, and of whom, even there, there are some thousands. One will find members of the Transport and General Workers' Union in the tweed industry working alongside other persons in a different process on the same product. One set of persons will be regarded as self-employed and the others will be regarded as employed persons; one set will be debarred from all our social benefits, while the others will be enjoying them to the full.
  There is something rather silly about all that. The mere fact that a man does not have a factory roof over his head, is not supervised in the usual way and is not paid by the hour, but is instead paid over days and weeks—though he is virtually still under the discipline of an employer—debars him from practically all the benefits—the main benefits anyhow—for workers under our social service system.
  At times when I have made speeches on this subject in the House, many people have written to me. But the

  1589
  letters have not always come from Harris tweed weavers. They have come often from people belonging to the Music Hall Artistes Association or such organisations. These people are in exactly the same position, one of the reasons being that they are not attached to a single employer but must accept contracts for service from different employers, possibly half a dozen in a year, and are not supervised by the hour.
  This is an opportunity for the Government to do something about those people who are left in the cold. They have to pay the heaviest weekly contributions, and yet they are debarred from the main and most urgent benefits in difficult times. This applies not only to the Harris tweed weavers in the Isles and to music hall artistes all over the country; but also to people in the millinery and leatherwork trade to whom materials are given out for finishing. It applies also to toy making. I do not know how far the Minister has addressed himself to these problems with his right hon. Friend the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance. This is not purely a constituency point, although I have given a constituency illustration. The plight of all these people is serious.
  Another way in which the Government could be more helpful to people in a difficult position as regards classification for insurance purposes and for the purpose of qualifying fully for contracts of service, concerns road workers employed by county councils, for example. I know case after case among these men in which a worker under, say, the Inverness County Council is told that there is no more work for him late in the year. What happens to him?
  He goes to the Ministry of Labour and is told that he cannot receive benefit because he is a seasonal worker. Why is he classified as a seasonal worker? Because his general pattern of employment year after year is that he works during certain months, for a number of reasons—possibly for the convenience of the council or because the cash runs out, as it has done in some years. There is the weather factor. The man is in an unfair situation.
  We have had the rulings of commissioners on this, but there is no definite
  1590
  provision by which these men could enter into a contract which would qualify them for whatever benefits there might be in the Bill. If these public employees—for that is what they are—were to be given work during part of the summer, part of the autumn and part of the winter, they would at first sight appear to be covered. But if even that wider pattern repeated itself for five or six years they would automatically again be classified as seasonal workers because it is the average employment times over the years which count. One has apparently to break a pattern and employ them at several different times in several different years in order to qualify them for insurance benefit and in order to bring them into any continuity of service. Yet they have to be available all year round.
  The Government could bring into the Bill a great number of people who now are without the safeguard and the benefit of continuous employment and qualification for what benefits there are in the Bill—benefits which we hope will be extended in Committee—by persuading and assisting county councils undertaking public works to establish continuity—on the right terms—for the road construction and other contractors and so for the workers. In this way, they could bring tens of thousands of workers all over the country within the qualifications for unemployment benefit and give them the opportunity to work under terms which would allow them to benefit from the contract of service terms of the Bill.
  At the moment such people in the Western Isles are in an impossible situation. The area has over 31 per cent. unemployed. I have heard hon. Members waxing furious and eloquent about 4 per cent., 9 per cent., or, as an extreme, 10 per cent. unemployment in their areas. But year after year, for several months of the year, we have had up to 31 per cent. unemployment. This is in an area of both crofting agriculture and light industry. Small-scale farming runs alongside textile production and other industrial jobs.
  If the Minister is incapable of imagining the hardships of so many people unemployed in an area in which so many of them are also debarred, in the event of unemployment, from enjoying insurance benefits or the advantages of the protection of the Industrial Injuries Scheme, then he has little imagination indeed.

  1591
  The real figure is not merely 31 per cent. All those who are but should not be classified as self-employed very often have to be added to the number of unemployed to get at the real figure. Who knows what the real figure is? In pre-war days, I saw it rise to 75 per cent. Something good had happened in the last year prewar when it stood at only 60 per cent. But today at 31 per cent. it should still stir the consciences of the Government and of this House.
  The Government can do a certain amount to alleviate it by bringing these people into the full Class I Insurance and within the possibility of being covered by such minor benefits as this Bill brings by making sure that changes are made in the National Insurance provisions and doing whatever they can to ensure continuity of employment in public works of every kind.
  8.36 p.m.
  Mr. Ray Mawby: The hon. Member for Southwark (Mr. Gunter) had a little fun at our expense about the Industrial Charter and the fact that it has taken so long for it to be brought about. But I think that my hon. Friend the Member for Mitcham (Mr. Carr) dealt with that very effectively by pointing out that time and again we have given both sides of industry the chance to put this matter right by reaching voluntary agreements.
  I was staggered to find that only about 16 per cent. of people in manufacturing industries are covered by some sort of redundancy scheme. I think that this figure is sufficient answer to those who say that we should allow a little more time for agreement to be reached. The major noise made against the Bill is that we are attacking one of the sacred cows; but it is surely accepted that this matter is one in which both sides of industry can look after their own affairs. They have been given a long time to do it and it is right and proper that this Bill should now be brought in at least to provide a higher floor than before and upon which, one hopes, voluntary arrangements will be built. This is a good move forward and one which we all ought to support.
  I believe that it will help industrial relations in two ways. Many hon. Members have been a little half-hearted about this Measure. They have said that the Bill is so small that it will not make
  1592
  any difference. I do not agree. I believe that it will help in two ways. First, for the first time in their lives many men will receive in writing the terms and conditions of their employment, and will for the first time be able to read what are their rights, and, far more important, their obligations.
  Secondly, there is this great problem that whenever industrial strife occurs, one of the greatest contributing factors is fear. This is extremely important, and any action we can take to reduce fear will correspondingly reduce one of the factors behind industrial disputes. As the fear of the unknown is the most potent fear of all, if a man knows his conditions of work, his fear will naturally be reduced, and he will feel much safer in his job. I do not think that anyone can expect a man to think logically or act logically when he is frightened. Immediately fear enters the mind and heart of a man he ceases to act logically and to think logically, and I believe that this Measure will go some way towards reducing this contributing factor behind many of the disputes about which we hear every day.
  One of the greatest problems today, which is brought about by the need for larger and larger manufacturing units, is the tendency for managements to become more and more remote from the men on the shop floor. Many of the difficulties which arise in large firms cannot arise in small ones, because in these small firms everyone knows the man who makes the decisions and realises that he is a human being subject to all the normal failures. But in a large organisation, the man who makes the decision becomes so remote that to him the men on the shop floor are mere ciphers. It is important that the communication systems, particularly in the larger firms, are improved regularly. In many industries particular care is taken to see that the communication system is working properly, and to make certain that not only is there a good chain of command, but a good avenue of information to everyone in the firm. Where particular regard is paid to communications, the possibility of industrial difficulties arising is considerably lessened.
  In many cases the building of large industries leads to a distortion in the balance of loyalties. Almost every man

  1593
  in industry belongs to a trade union. He therefore has a loyalty to his employer, and he naturally has a loyalty to his trade union. Where a balance is achieved between the two, nothing but good ensues, but if it comes to the point when a man feels that the company regards him as a mere cipher, merely as a number on the payroll, then naturally his whole loyalty goes to the trade union which he supports, and he takes the line, "My union right or wrong."
  In a perfect world no problem would arise, but we know that this is not a perfect world and difficulties do arise. In a perfect world the trade union executive would base its day-to-day activities on the policy which had been democratically arrived at a delegate conference, and one would naturally expect the actions of the national executive to be in line with the views of the general membership of the union. But as this is an imperfect world, we see more and more unofficial stoppages which in many cases the union executive deplores and says should not take place.
  These stoppages are obviously contrary to the policy of the union executive, and in turn contrary to the expressed opinions of the majority of the union members. Therefore, any action which will bring back this balance of loyalties will stop ordinary members of trade unions from acting blindly, so that they will not follow my leader but will instead seriously consider what justification there is for any action that is suggested.
  Secondly, under the terms of the Bill every employee will have to face a choice at any time that unofficial action is contemplated. At present he does not have to make a choice, because he is faced with the fact that, even if it is an unofficial strike, by refusing to take action he will be called a blackleg and may very well be disciplined by his local branch. He will then have to rely upon the good nature of his executive to reverse that decision, even supposing that the executive has made a decision other than that taken locally.
  Under those circumstances the ordinary worker will naturally say "Even if I disagree with the decision taken locally, I must support the strike." But in future he will have to make a choice. On the one hand, he may find himself disciplined by his union for
  1594
  not supporting the strike but, on the other, if he does support it he may lose the benefits involved in his contract of service. I hope that this will cause every employee to seek to ensure that, in future, in his own union at any rate his executive is the body which makes the decisions, so that the action he takes will be constitutional, having been decided according to democratic process at the annual conference.
  Those are the two main points that strike me right away. As many other hon. Members have pointed out, a number of changes will have to be made in Committee. Nevertheless, I congratulate my right hon. Friend on bringing forward the Bill, and I commend it to the House.
  8.47 p.m.
  Mr. John Rankin: I have heard most of the speeches which have been delivered in the debate, and I am grateful for the opportunity of saying a word or two in its concluding stages. Naturally, at this late hour I cannot deliver the considered statement on the Bill which I had gone to the trouble of preparing.
  From time to time I have been impressed by what I have heard from hon. Members opposite, but I thought that the Minister was not his usual generous self. In what he said earlier he seemed to substantiate many of the fears which exist outside, in those organisations with which I am particularly concerned. The hon. Member for Totnes (Mr. Mawby) said that there were two fears in the minds of employees today, and he felt that the Bill would go some way to allay them. But his hon. Friend, the Member for Renfrew, East (Miss Harvie Anderson) said that the provisions in the Bill, measured in terms of hard cash, would go only a short way towards remedying the difficulties and allaying the fears to which the hon. Member for Totnes referred.
  I thought of Glasgow where the figure of unemployment is higher than it has ever been since way back in the 1940s. But something else is now happening in Glasgow. In the next few days the Remington Rand Company will dismiss 1,100 workers who will join the great band of unemployed already on the streets. These people who are now earning good wages will suddenly find themselves in

  1595
  receipt of unemployment pay and in many cases this will represent a 50 per cent. cut. The problem of under-employment extends beyond the City of Glasgow. The furniture trade operatives on the estate where the Remington Rand Company operates are working a four-day fortnight. Operatives in the woollen trade are in the same predicament, and the boot and shoe operatives are on a three-day week.
  There is therefore this secondary problem of under-employment. The hon. Member for Renfrew, East was honest enough to say that this Bill, which should have been designed to deal with such problems, does not do so. I cannot therefore welcome the Measure as have many hon. Members opposite.
  Organisations with which I am associated, my constituency Labour Party and the engineers and shipbuilders in my constituency, as well as other trade unionists, are strongly opposed to it. I am also actively associated with the Co-operative movement which, having considered it carefully, is critical of the purpose of this Bill. I am associated with the trade union movement, and I am the Parliamentary chairman of A.S.S.E.T., which has advocated, through my hon. Friend the Member for Gloucester (Mr. Diamond), a real solution, severance pay, on the basis of one week's pay for every full year of service. My hon. Friend hoped, as I do, that during the Committee stage discussions we shall be able to discuss the solution offered by my trade union for this problem of redundancy, which is supported by most of the other unions. The Minister made great play with the idea of reciprocity on which the Bill is based. He was very seriously criticised by some of his back benchers, because they admit that the basis of establishing reciprocity is non-existent. Thus there can be no chance of reciprocity in employer and employee relations.
  The Minister said that if an employee was held guilty of misconduct and dismissed for it he was outwith the operations of the Bill. Misconduct covers a multitude of sins, but when the Minister said that I wondered where the reciprocity was. If an employee can be dismissed for misconduct, how is reciprocity applied to the employer, or are we to assume that no employer is ever guilty of misconduct? An employee can be chucked
  1596
  out at a moment's notice. Where does reciprocity come in? It is non-existent. Yet it is one of the props of the Bill.
  I thought that the casual worker was very unfortunately treated by the Minister and by the Government side as a whole. There are casual workers who are casual workers all their lives. They are permanently casual workers, casually permanent if you like, and they are outwith the operations of the Bill. As a small boy in an Ayrshire town I can recollect seeing the women who went to the net works to get the raw material of their day's work or week's work returning through the streets with it to make the nets in their homes. They were casual workers, yet to supplement the household wage they did that job all the years they were able to do it. The right hon. Gentleman would call them casual workers.
  I have said that the organisations with which I am actively associated oppose the Bill. Basically they are against it because they regard it as a piece of anti-strike legislation brought in by a backdoor method.
  Mr. Hare indicated dissent.
  Mr. Rankin: I have only a minute or two left. I always like to see a Minister shaking his head, because it invites me to continue. However, the Minister has shaken his head at a time when I am under sentence to finish. I repeat that the men and women I know well in the organisations I have mentioned believe that this is anti-strike legislation by a back-door method. The strike legislation is dealt with in paragraphs 6 to 9 of Schedule 1. On reading that one gets into the most chaotic confusion imaginable. I should have loved to take the right hon. Gentleman through it and to see what he would have made of the tangle, but I must delay that until the Committee stage; and give way now to my hon. Friend the Member for East Ham, North (Mr. Prentice).
  9.0 p.m.
  Mr. R. E. Prentice: I hope that my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Govan (Mr. Rankin) will pursue this matter in Committee, when I can assure him that many of us will be with him in pursuing it. We have had a wide-ranging debate in which a variety

  1597
  of experiences from many different industries have been expressed from hon. Members representing both sides of industry. I should like, at the outset, to refer to the maiden speech of the hon. Member for Northants, South (Mr. Arthur Jones) and say how much we enjoyed it. It was a relevant speech and he showed a detailed knowledge of the pattern of work in his constituency. That was both useful and interesting, and I am sure that all hon. Members look forward to hearing him often.
  The Government have had a rather rough time over the Bill, because nearly every hon. Member who has spoken has either been opposing the Bill outright or has been saying briefly that he supports it but has devoted the remainder of his remarks to searching criticisms of the Measure. Although it would be unkind to remind the Minister of the response the Bill has received outside the House, I must mention that its response outside has been probably worse than the response it has received in the House today.
  The Press response to it has been either lukewarm or hostile. Even those newspapers which are normally friendly to the Government and have referred to it as a Workers' Charter have generally put the phrase in quotation marks. A typical description of it appeared in The Economist on 15th December with the headline "Mr. Hare's mouse." That has been the sort of response the Bill has received in the Press. A very hostile response has come from the British Employers' Confederation, and the trade union response has been either outright opposition or a detailed and searching criticism.
  There is no law which says that a Minister of the Crown must try to be popular. Some Ministers have got themselves into trouble in the past by trying to be too popular; being afraid to take unpopular decisions. There is no law which says that a Minister of Labour must always produce Measures agreeable to both sides of industry. Indeed, we have often urged the present Minister and his predecessors to come out in advance of industrial opinion in matters of industrial training, and so on. But it is extraordinary, considering that the Bill is ostensibly concerned with industrial relations, that the Government have not been
  1598
  more careful to consult in detail, over a good period of time, those people who have day-to-day experience of industrial relations on both sides of industry.
  The one big thing which has concerned the spokesmen of industry has been the lack of consultation on the Bill. A number of criticisms contained in Press statements and letters we have received from people on both sides of industry are the kind of criticisms and observations they expected to make through the ordinary channels of consultation. It is remarkable that such consultation does not seem to have taken place.
  The hon. Member for Mitcham (Mr. R. Carr) and the hon. Member for Totnes (Mr. Mawby) both said that the Industrial Charter had been produced a long time ago and that the Government had from time to time reminded industry about it. But that is not enough. The precise proposals in the Bill should have been carefully discussed with industry and full consultation should have taken place. And if the Minister wants to defy both sides of industry—as must a Minister, whatever the party, on occasions—he should do so in a cause which is worth while and not in respect of a Bill as trivial and unenterprising as the one before us.
  As far as it goes, the Bill can be described as a mixture of good and bad, and most of us on this side would say that the bad things in it outweigh the good. We therefore feel that we have shown a certain amount of restraint in deciding not to divide the House tonight but, as my hon. Friend the Member for Southwark (Mr. Gunter) said earlier, we are reserving our position in regard to the Third Reading because we believe that a Bill so muddled and ill-conceived can hardly go through the Committee stage without some pretty substantial changes. We are encouraged in that view by some of the speeches from hon. Members opposite who have agreed with us on many of the changes we want to see. If they will persist in that opinion we shall see some changes and, on balance, the Bill may turn out to be a good thing, if only in a very modest way.
  Turning, first, to the good parts, there is much to be said for long-service

  1599
  employees having longer notice. I cannot help thinking that the Minister overstated the effect of this, because what will happen in practice in a large number of cases is that when redundancy is foreseen, and foreseen some time ahead, the only extra requirement on employers is that they will have to give formal notice three weeks earlier than would otherwise be the case, and the practical benefits for the employees will be nil. But in some situations there will be a long-term benefit to the employee, and we do not under-rate that.
  This provision is, of course, no substitute for severance pay, and if Clause 1, with its reciprocal obligations on the employee, remains, I think that in the majority of cases the harm it will do will outweigh the good. However, taken in isolation, the fact that employers will have to give employees longer notice is something we welcome.
  We welcome, too, what is said about the statement of terms of employment. It is a modest item, and in many cases will not add much practically, as most employees already know where they stand in that respect; but here and there there are misunderstandings, or even deliberate cheating, and here and there are opportunities for a bad employer to exploit the employee. I think of something like the holiday pay to which an employee is entitled when he is leaving a firm without having taken his holiday. A clear statement on his entitlement is very desirable. But that is a very modest part of the Bill.
  I want to devote what time remains to me to our criticisms of the Bill, the dangers which we see in it, and the Amendments which we shall seek to make to it. I draw attention, first of all, to something that has not been touched on much in this debate, and that is the possible danger—indeed, I would say the probable danger—and one foreseen by the T.U.C. and others, that the Bill as drafted may lead to more people being given summary dismissal. That is a problem in industry that we should all face up to.
  A recent report of the T.U.C. says:
  "The total number of dismissals for reasons other than redundancy is not known but in 1960, for example, at least 140,000 workers were dismissed for alleged industrial misconduct. The abrupt loss of a job brings
  1600
  financial hardship and worry to the individual, and causes disquiet in the workplace. It is also a source of industrial friction: 20 per cent, of the stoppages reported to us two years ago in our inquiry into disputes were acceded by dismissals of individuals."
  The form in which the Bill is drafted will offer a temptation for a minority of bad employers—and I stress that it is a minority of bad employers—to dodge their obligations by dismissing people before the two years or the five years is up on some trumped up charge or other, or, indeed, to use the provisions of Clause 2 (3) about "reasonable work" as an excuse to get rid of people in order to avoid their obligations. That danger is there, and it is something at which we shall have to look very closely.
  I need not remind the House that a man who loses his job in those circumstances is also likely to be disqualified from unemployment benefit under the National Insurance Act, with its reference to industrial misconduct. The ideal answer, of course, is the spread within industry of appeals machinery by which summary dismissals of this kind can be examined and, if necessary, taken to independent arbitration.
  One idea I throw out now is that the Government should consider the establish-merit of some kind of statutory tribunal, perhaps on the lines of the appeals tribunal under our National Insurance legislation, which could deal with this sort of dismissal in cases where there is no adequate voluntary machinery within the industry concerned. The Bill as drafted could aggravate a problem which already exists in industry and about which not nearly enough is being done.
  I come now to something which many hon. Members have discussed, the fact that the Bill does nothing for those who are not with an employer for at least two years. It is extraordinary that, when we are dealing with a proposal ostensibly intended to give extra security to workers in their employment, it contains nothing for those who are most insecure at the present time. A formula should be found. I very much welcome the suggestion made by the hon. Member for Mitcham that, as I understood it, we should consider in Committee an arrangement whereby everyone employed should be entitled to at least seven days' notice unless by regulation certain types of employment were excluded. That is an idea which should commend itself to the

  1601
  Committee's consideration. We should go into it and, in any event, find some formula to do something for the many millions of workers who will be outside the Bill as at present drafted.
  There are very difficult problems here. Some workers change their employer within a matter of weeks or even days. I understand that in my own union, the Transport and General Workers' Union, there are men in ship repairing in the Port of London who sometimes have as many as four employers in a period of three weeks. The chance of doing something through legislation in that sort of case is not very great, but we ought not to be content with a period of two years. I understand that in the building and civil engineering industry there are people who tend to work for an employer for some months. I gather that a great many projects in the industry have a total construction period of about two years. Within the two years, only a minority of workpeople are there ail the time. There are certain phases of work, each lasting for some months, and there is a considerable change-over in the labour force at the end of each phase.
  I suggest that we should think at least in terms of employees like that, who may work for six or eight months for an employer, and ensure that, at the end of that period, they are entitled to at least a week's notice, if not more. Something along those lines ought to be written into the Bill.
  There are at least two things in the Bill which ought to come out altogether. On this side of the House, we take a very clear view about both. The first is the reciprocal duty of the employee to give notice. We are very glad to have had during the debate almost unanimous support on this matter from the other side of the House. The Minister spoke about there being two parties to the contract, suggesting that it was reasonable that each party should have a similar obligation. Of course, as many hon. Members have pointed out, there is no real equality in this.
  If the worker leaves his employer, this is an inconvenience, possibly a serious inconvenience, particularly to a small employer, but nothing like, in its impact, the consequence for the man himself if he loses his job, particularly if he
  1602
  loses it in conditions of heavy local unemployment such as are to be found in many areas today.
  What is more, the Bill as drafted puts an extra penalty on the long-service employee. If the requirement of notice is enforced, it will be more difficult for him to find a new job than it will be for the man who has been with the employer for a shorter period. Let us not forget that it is finding a new job which matters to a man more than anything else. Nothing in the Bill, nothing about longer notice—not even severance payments—will be nearly as important as the prospect of actually finding a new job. If we do something which will make it more difficult to find new jobs, we do far more harm than any good the Bill might do in other directions.
  In fact, if the Bill goes through as it is now drafted, we are in danger of creating two classes of workpeople, those who happen to be short-service employees, moving quickly from one job to another, and those who, on the average, might be thought steadier people who try to stick to one job for a longer time but who, as a result, are penalised if redundancy comes their way.
  What is more, the Clause as drafted could lead to all kinds of unfairness. One employer might enforce the period of notice and another employer might not. One worker might feel that he had a sense of obligation to his employer to work out his notice and another might walk out feeling that he did not have that obligation. When a worker walks out without giving notice, one employer may try to enforce his rights through the courts and another may not. All kinds of discrepancies, grievances and possibly industrial disputes might result from the operation of the Clause as it is drafted.
  I understand that in Sweden and West Germany there is a law on the statute book which imposes on the employer the obligation to give longer notice than the employee. I should have thought that there was no reason in principle why it should not be done here, and I hope that the Bill will be amended accordingly.
  The other thing to which we take very great exception is the First Schedule as far as it relates to strikes. This is a, curious way of legislating about strikes. It is clear that there is a number of hon.

  1603
  Members opposite who feel that there should be legislation about strikes. We think that they are wrong. We think that this is the wrong way to approach the matter. But, if we are to have legislation about strikes, then let us have comprehensive legislation in some detail. We do not want something slipped in in this fashion in a Schedule in a Bill which is supposed to deal with other objects. This is a very big issue which, if covered at at all, should be covered in a separate Bill.
  One of the things which I welcomed in the British Employers' Confederation's statement was the way in which it came out against this matter. It did so for the simple reason that this was an impracticable way of going about it, and, of course, it is. If this Schedule is intended to be a weapon against unofficial strikes, the first thing to be said against it is that it will not prevent a single strike. Why should it? The one thing about which we need to remind ourselves is that when men come out on strike the first result is that they lose their pay. They feel strongly enough about an issue, rightly or wrongly, to walk out from the job and therefore to give up their pay. Incidentally, if it is the sort of strike which is dealt with in this Schedule, often they will not get strike pay and they will also be disqualified from unemployment benefit.
  Is it really suggested that if men are in the mood to do that they will hesitate and say, "We might lose our rights under Section 1 of the Contracts of Employment Act, 1963"? Is it suggested that that will deter them from striking if they are prepared to sacrifice their pay and strike pay by a sudden walk out? Of course it will not.
  As I say, this Schedule will not prevent a single strike. In fact, it might prolong strikes which have already occurred, because if people are on strike part of the argument about a resumption of work might be on the point as to whether the employer is prepared to waive the rights conferred by the Schedule and restore the long-service status of the workers concerned. It may well be a source of argument which will prolong a strike, but certainly it will not be effective in preventing a strike.
  1604
  My hon. Friend the Member for Southwark said something which I think impressed the whole House, and with which, of course, I agree, about the need to prevent strikes and about our condemnation of the minority of troublemakers who try to stir up strikes for purposes which have nothing to do with the interests of the workpeople or with the interests of this country. Of course, we accept that. But I wish to add that I think that there are some hon. Members opposite and some propagandists of the Tory Party and some Conservative newspapers who are building up strikes into a much bigger issue than they are for political purposes. They are doing it because they think that it discredits the trade union movement and that through the trade union movement they will discredit us. This is positively unhealthy and is a disservice to good industrial relations.
  Sir S. Summers: I do not wish to undermine the sincerity of what the hon. Gentleman has been saying, but will he accept it from me that the public would take much more notice of the kind of comments which he and his hon. Friend the Member for Southwark have made if those who disobeyed and broke contracts were disciplined by the unions?
  Mr. Prentice: In many cases they are disciplined by the unions.
  Sir S. Summers: No, they are not.
  Mr. Prentice: In many cases they are. The hon. Gentleman, with his great experience in industry, will recognise that there are many different sets of circumstances in strikes, and sometimes it is right that people should be disciplined and sometimes it is not. The situation leading to strikes can vary considerably.
  Part of the mythology which is promoted by some hon. Members opposite is that every employer and every manager is a knight in shining armour, always wise, benevolent and patient and doing the right thing, that every shop steward is evil and probably a Communist to boot, and that every worker is an absolute sheep. That is not true. The circumstances that lead to strikes vary greatly.
  One thing that is wrong with the Schedule is that it attempts to prejudge every unofficial strike situation and to say that always, in 100 per cent. of cases,

  1605
  no matter what the surrounding situation, people are to be deprived of the rights under the law because they have gone on strike without notice.
  I put this situation to hon. Members. Suppose that on a building site, the foreman or whoever is in charge tries to insist upon men working in conditions that they know to be unsafe because he is careless of their safety or, perhaps, is up against a time limit and wants to get on with the job. If he gives them the order to do that, what should they do? Perhaps they inform their union and complain to the factory inspector, but in the meantime should they work in conditions which they know to be unsafe, or should they strike without notice? There can be circumstances like that in which the only sensible course is to strike without notice.
  There are many cases of that kind. To generalise about all strikes and to say that they are always wrong in all circumstances is absurd. We want to prevent and to reduce strikes, but we are also entitled to remind hon. Members opposite that on the whole, British industry has a good record in this respect that compares well with nearly every other industrial country. Outside the Communist countries, Sweden and West Germany are the only industrialised nations which have a smaller incidence of strikes in recent years than we have. Nearly every other industrial country has considerably more.
  In most years since the war, the average time lost in strikes, official and unofficial, plus the time lost as a consequence by people in plants which play no part in the strike, has been about 3 million working days a year. With approximately 24 million people at work, that is about one-eighth of a working day per year, or one hour per worker per year. We lose six hundred times as much working time from sickness and injury as from strikes.
  I am not being complacent in saying that. In some circumstances, strikes can be damaging and ought to be avoided. Sometimes there are mistakes on the union side and irresponsible shop stewards, of course. To generalise in that way, however, is wrong and particularly to do so for party political purposes. That is something on which some Conservatives at least have been
  1606
  playing heavily in recent months, particularly as their political support in the country has been lessening and they have been getting more desperate and more and more inclined to play this up.
  Mr. R. Carr: Would not the hon. Member agree that one of the disturbing features is that there seems to be a tendency for our strike record to get worse, certainly not better, and that the serious aspect is the element of unofficial, wildcat strikes?
  Mr. Prentice: No. The loss of working hours through strikes in 1962 was almost double what it was in 1961, for the reason that there were two one-day official strikes in the engineering industry in February and March. The fact that the whole industry was out for two one-day periods was itself sufficient to double the figures last year. They were official strikes of which notice was given and were the direct result of the incomes policy of the Government. Excluding those two instances, the remainder of the strike record last year was less than in 1961.
  As for the number of unofficial strikes, the fact that a fairly large proportion of strikes is unofficial is in itself a compliment to the trade union movement in trying to avoid official strikes. In other countries where there are more strikes a bigger proportion of them are official. Because great efforts are made by trade unions in this country to avoid strikes, of the few that we have a higher proportion are unofficial.
  The only other matter to which I wish to refer is the all-important question of severance pay. I support very much what was said by my hon. Friend the Member for Gloucester (Mr. Diamond) and what has been said by other hon. Members on both sides of the House about the problem. The Minister has often expressed his good intentions. He produces pamphlets, lectures the N.J.A.C. on the subject and admonishes industry because only a minority of workers are in any kind of severance pay scheme.
  We want specifically to challenge the Minister in relation to the Bill. The Bill could be amended in Committee to provide for severance payments. The Long Title says:
  "to provide for matters connected with the giving of notice".

  1607
  Will the Minister accept Amendments along the lines of the provisions of my hon. Friend's Bill if they are moved in Committee? Will he take the opportunity to do something worth while? If not, I will make a more modest suggestion. If he thinks for some reason that there should not be an overall compulsion on employers to make severance payments, will he make a declaration—will the Parliamentary Secretary make it now—that the Government will give a lead in relation to all public employees in national and local government and to employees whose terms of employment are covered by wages councils?
  Suppose in Committee we move an Amendment to amend the Wages Councils Act and the Agricultural Wages Acts to give the statutory bodies power to bring in redundancy payments, will the Government accept it? This is in some ways a test of their good intentions. The Bill was introduced by the Minister today with a great deal of brave talk about a period of industrial change and the need to protect the worker and give him extra security—with which we all agreed—but all that he has put into the Bill is trivial compared with the things to which he referred. The Minister can, however, still accept during the Committee stage Amendments which we are prepared to move to turn the Bill into something which will really have an impact on the working lives of the people concerned.
  It is a commonplace these days to talk about the rapid pace of change in industry. What is not sufficiently recognised, I think, is that the pace of change in industry is still increasing and will continue to increase in the coming years. The impact of science and technology and the impact of changes in the pattern of world trade upon our pattern of industry and our pattern of work will mean that more and more people will lose jobs on which they have come to rely. More and more people who acquired a skill when they left school and made years of sacrifice to acquire it and built up a standard of living based on that skill in the service of an employer will find in middle life that change has overtaken them and that the security on which they depended is not there.
  1608
  It is not good enough that people in that position should have just seven days' notice and the rather meagre rates of unemployment benefit that we still pay. We need a number of radical changes to meet the situation. We need a genuine policy of full employment, policies of retraining, policies of rehousing people and a policy of proper severance pay based on the length of service that a man has had with a particular employer.
  It is ironic that about 16 years after the publication of the so-called Workers' Charter and with the Government now coming towards the end of their life and facing defeat very soon in a General Election, they have at last produced a Bill which gives some dim recognition of the vast social problems that we have been talking about from this side of the House for years. It is characteristic of the Government that in producing this Bill they have produced something which is such a feeble and inadequate response to the challenge of the times.
  9.29 p.m.
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour (Mr. William Whitelaw): I agree with one thing which the hon. Member for East Ham, North (Mr. Prentice) said—we have had an interesting and valuable debate. I want to call attention to two speeches, the first being the maiden speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Northants, South (Mr. Arthur Jones). I am sure that we would all like to congratulate him on it. I very much agreed with him when he mentioned the value to the nation of good industrial relations and I hope, as I am sure we all do, that he will develop in detail at a later stage many points which he put in general terms today.
  Another very important speech was made by the hon. Member for Southwark (Mr. Gunter). I hope that he will not feel that I am being in any way impertinent when, from a short experience of the matters we are discussing, I say that I agree very profoundly with a great deal of what he said. I should also like to add that since I have been associated with this work, and, therefore, connected with him on another Bill as well as this one, I have realised how much some one like me can learn from his experience and thoroughly good sense on these matters. I do not agree with him on one thing.

  1609
  He said that the Bill was a skeleton. As my speech develops I hope to prove that it is no more a skeleton than either he or I are.
  Perhaps inevitably, this debate has shown that action in any new field is beset with difficulties. Critics are certainly not lacking even if their views frequently cancel each other out. At one extreme there are those who want to move both faster and farther. At the other, there are doubters sceptical of any move at all.
  Somewhere between these two extremes I suspect, and, indeed so did my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Huntingdonshire (Mr. Renton), that there are those who secretly approve of the action, or some parts of it, but publicly pour cold water on it because they did not put it forward themselves. From what the hon. Member for Aberdare (Mr. Probert) said, I suspect that some of that group are lurking on the benches opposite.
  In reply to the various arguments advanced, it will be my purpose to show, despite these conflicting doubts, that the action proposed in the Bill is both desirable and correctly balanced. If I am to succeed then I believe that as a start I must put the argument in proper perspective by re-emphasising not only what the Bill seeks to do but also what it does not attempt.
  Its purpose is to improve the security and status of workers by laying down certain minimum standards. It seeks therefore to reward a period of service to an employer with greater security. At the same time the advantage of this longer notice is to be forfeited if an employee's obligation to give the necessary service is not fulfilled. It is surely in accordance with the principles of any responsible society that those who gain rights should also incur obligations. I am not saying that they are necessarily identical obligations, but they are obligations.
  As my hon. Friend the Member for Totnes (Mr. Mawby) said, it is also only fair that those who are concerned should know exactly what their rights and obligations are. That is why the Bill proposes that each employee should receive a written statement about the terms and conditions of employment. So much for what the Bill sets out to achieve.
  1610
  Now let me make clear what it does not do.
  First, it lays down—and, I submit, rightly—only minimum standards. It does not prevent the negotiation of contracts with more generally favourable terms. Nor does it attempt to solve the wider problems of redundancy, to which I will return in a moment.
  Against this background, I will try to answer the many points which have been raised. I want to start with those who wish to deal in this Bill with the small but disruptive minority of trade unionists who do not honour agreements freely negotiated on their behalf.
  The hon. Member for East Ham, North was rather below his usual fair and high standard when he sought to build up a little castle merely for the purpose of blowing it down. If he thinks that there are those in the Conservative Party who seek to run down our record of industrial relations for political purposes, I should like to ask him to think again. I should like to ask him to read many of the speeches of my right hon. and hon. Friends. When he has done so, I do not think that he will feel the same again.
  Mr. Prentice: I invite the hon. Gentleman to read some of the Motions put on the Notice Paper by some of his hon. Friends.
  Mr. Whitelaw: I have invited the hon. Gentleman to do one thing. He has invited me to do another. No doubt we shall both do them.
  I know that in expressing their impatience with trouble-makers in industry my hon. Friends are voicing views widely held throughout the country. No one, whether Government, employers, or trade union leaders, as the hon. Member for Southwark recognised, can disregard the strength of feeling on this subject. Therefore, I have no doubt that my hon. Friends' remarks will be carefully studied, and all the views put forward on this point will be studied in all these quarters.
  I make only one general observation. It is always tempting to believe that there is some quick legislative method of solving all the problems of human relationships, but I think it would be widely agreed that legal action certainly cannot

  1611
  substantially remove the causes of discontent which provide subversive trouble-makers with their opportunities. That must remain the day-to-day responsibility of management and trade unions. I hope that the hon. Member for East Ham, North will carefully note those words.
  I have some doubts, therefore, about the value of any such Amendment in this Bill as a means of combating unofficial strikes. But in any event these ideas are concerned with a much broader issue than this Bill. The sort of Amendment suggested would affect the relations between employers' associations, trade unions, and the Government. As my hon. Friend the Member for Mitcham (Mr. R. Carr) pointed out, this Bill deals only with the relations between individual workers and their particular employers, and it is for that reason that I tell the hon. Member for Bolton, West (Mr. Holt) that there is no mention of trade unions in the Bill.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Esher (Sir W. Robson Brown) and many other hon. Members have suggested that this Bill should be extended to provide for severance payments or make redundancy policies compulsory. I feel that this vitally important subject must be considered on its own. The subject is really not so simple or straightforward as some hon. Members have tried to suggest.
  Many progressive firms in industry are introducing new schemes and many people are advancing new ideas. Some people favour severance payments, as for instance does the hon. Member for Gloucester (Mr. Diamond). Others argue in favour of schemes on an industry basis—the cotton industry and tinplate industry are examples of such schemes. My hon. Friend the Member for Mitcham, and my hon. Friend the Member for Renfrew, East (Miss Harvie Anderson) suggest a scheme on a national basis. The hon. Member for Glasgow, Govan (Mr. Rankin) said that bodies with whom he was associated had a scheme, but he was careful not to say what it was.
  Moreover, the problems we must examine are wider than the need to give help to meet financial difficulties in the event of redundancy. There is also the need for sensible planning of labour recruitment, efficient use of manpower, training and retraining. I am sure that for these reasons it is right for my right
  1612
  hon. Friend to examine all aspects of this problem with employers and the trade unions before reaching any final decision. Indeed, if experience on this Bill, and the complaints about lack of consultation put forward by the hon. Member for East Ham, North and others mean anything, it is clear that he would be severely criticised if he did not.
  I turn now to some of the substantive provisions of the Bill.
  The hon. Member for Southwark suggested that few people would be better of in respect of notice, and the hon. Member for Gloucester suggested that there was something psychologically wrong in introducing a Measure containing periods of notice. I am glad that that argument was completely demolished by a refreshing speech from the hon. Member for Leeds, West (Mr. C. Pannell). He drew on experience, which he rightly suggested that I had not got, to point out the real value of longer notice. I was glad that the gentleman whom he suggested fired people on the spot was called "White", and did not add anything after it. The hon. Member for Glasgow, Govan (Mr. Rankin) suggested that White is not a Scottish name. Whether or not that is true, White-law happens to be so. We would all agree with the hon. Member for Leeds, West in his view about the collective memory of trade unionists. The hon. Member for East Ham, North also supported the principle of longer service.
  At present, the great majority of our 15 million manual workers have a right to only a week's notice, no matter how long they have served their employers. The Bill therefore brings about a great improvement in the situation for all those workers with more than two years' service. The hon. Member for Southwark estimated that the Bill would cover about 5 million workers. That is not an insignificant figure but, even so, that is only his estimate. My view is that the figure may well be somewhat larger. In any case, I stress what was said by my hon. Friend the Member for Totnes, namely, that the Bill lays down minimum standards not only in respect of the period of notice but also in relation to service. I hope that as a result of the Bill employers will be encouraged to consider giving longer notice to more of their employees than merely those who benefit directly from the Bill. That already happens in some

  1613
  industries. If this process develops the Bill will clearly be an instrument by which longer notice is given to even more people.
  I know that at present, where only a week's notice is required, many employers would not dream of standing on their rights and sacking employees who had been with them for upwards of two years with only the bare minimum of notice. But there are some who do stand on their rights. In any case, it is the right that counts. This matter should not be left to the good will of the employer. By granting the right the Bill gives real security.
  My right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Huntingdonshire, my hon. Friend the Member for Esher and others have suggested that the Bill should provide for still longer notice being given to employees with, say, 10 years' service or more. My hon. Friend the Member for Esher suggested that as it stood the Bill created three different classes of citizen. I would point out that the proposal which he put forward would create up to 50 different classes. The minimum periods of notice have been chosen because they correspond broadly to what progressive employers provide. There are employers who give still longer notice to employees with 10 or more years' service, but the practice is not widespread enough to warrant the Bill's laying it down as a minimum. Anyway, I must stress once more that the Bill sets only a minimum standard.
  I hope that by drawing attention to the question of notice the Bill will stimulate firms and industries to set still higher standards, as their circumstances permit. Again, if the Bill achieves that, it will bring benefit to even more people.
  The hon. Member for Leeds, West and my hon. Friend the Member fog Mitcham suggested that in some industries where short-term engagements are common many workers will not benefit from the notice provisions. This is true of the construction and shipbuilding industries. The dilemma here is that in those industries the attachment of the worker, in the main, is to the industry rather than to any one firm. The Bill is concerned with the rights which exist as between the individual employer and worker. It would obviously not be fair to impose upon an employer obligations towards a worker on the basis of that worker's
  1614
  employment in the industry as a whole. The solution, I think, must lie in progress within these industries on a voluntary basis as my right hon. Friend pointed out. There are clear grounds for hoping that longer notice may soon become the rule here also. If by setting a minimum period of notice the Bill stimulates interest in this whole idea, it may very well assist these industries.
  It should not be overlooked that in both industries there is a substantial body of employees who remain with the same firm indefinitely. These people will of course benefit. I had intended to mention to the hon. Member for the Western Isles (Mr. Malcolm MacMillan) that I had noted his point regarding people with contracts for services and we will consider it.
  The hon. Member for East Ham, North suggested that, in the absence of accepted dismissal procedures, employers might abuse the right of summary dismissal and might tend to do so more because of the provisions of the Bill. I do not believe that there is a risk that employers will abuse the right of summary dismissal in order to avoid the obligation to give longer notice. They are even less likely to do so successfully because they could be taken to court and made to pay damages for wrongful dismissal. It is possible that employers will be more willing to exercise the right when it is justified but there can be no quarrel about that.
  In general it has to be faced that dismissal procedures in this country are not well developed. The hon. Member for Southwark referred to an individual case about which he was good enough to notify my right hon. Friend and I thank him for that. This case illustrated the sort of problem which could arise. However, the British Employers' Confederation and the T.U.C. are jointly discussing the subject. Good dismissal procedures could contribute greatly to improved labour relations and give a better sense of security. My right hon. Friend would welcome progress in these joint discussions and, if the hon. Member for East Ham, North, after what he has said, can give us any help in that respect we shall welcome it.
  The hon. Member for Leeds, West and other hon. Members have criticised the Bill, because it provides for longer notice

  1615
  to be given on both sides and not just by the employer. I must point out, in view of the weight of opinion about this that the principle of equal notice is not new. Most workers now have to give as much notice as they are entitled to receive. In some industries where longer notice has been introduced it has been on reciprocal grounds. The pottery, printing and furniture industries are examples.
  Since the Bill gives workers many new rights it is not unfair that they should have reasonable obligations also. Of course the employer need not stand on his rights and hon. Members have pointed out that reasonable employers, faced with making men redundant, will allow those who have found other jobs to leave before the end of their notice. The Bill does nothing to discourage this. But I recognise that there may be some employers who would try to hang on to employees in an unreasonable manner. It is true that many progressive employers give longer notice to their workers than they ask in return. My right hon. Friend said that he intended to take into account the views expressed on this point when reaching a final decision on the question of notice to be given by workers. I can assure the House that my right hon. Friend will give very careful consideration to all the points which have been made on this subject.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Aylesbury (Sir S. Summers) criticised the provision in Clause 2 that the period of notice should be based on average earnings during the previous six months. His criticism and that of other hon. Members took two forms. The first was that the method of calculation will create anomalies. The second was that it will cause excessive clerical work.
  I will deal with the second criticism first, because I cannot believe that it need be a major obstacle. Many employers already have records for their own purposes, and they will be perfectly adequate. Those who do not have such records need only to refer to the P.A.Y.E. tax deduction cards which they have to keep for each employee. Once these figures are available only a simple mathematical sum is required. I do not think that this represents unreasonable clerical work, even for the small employer.
  I will, however, accept at once that the criticism directed against possible
  1616
  anomalies has much more force. Clearly we shall have an opportunity of considering these carefully in Committee. At this stage I only want to set out the reasons why this yardstick of previous earnings has been used. The Bill is based on the principle that a man who has qualified by service to his employer deserves special treatment. When he is under notice, he is faced with finding another job. Surely it is right to say that his earnings should not drop sharply at this time. It is also necessary to fix a level to suit the man whose contract does not guarantee him any wage but merely pay for work performed.
  For these reasons, the yardstick of previous earnings seemed to offer the fairest and most practicable solution. However, having given this explanation, I want to make it quite clear that my right hon. Friend will certainly be prepared to consider alternative proposals during the later stages of the Bill, provided that the widely accepted principle which I have set out is maintained.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Esher criticized the provision in Clause 2 (3) on the ground that the words—
  "a reasonable amount of work"
  were open to grave doubt. The hon. Member for Southwark made much the same point. The purpose of the words is to provide a safeguard for both worker and employer. Without something on these lines an employee would be entitled to payment during notice without there necessarily being any obligation on his side to earn it. Further, an employer could seek during notice to impose excessive work on an employee, unless the employee, were protected in this way. However, we are only too ready to look again at the form of words.
  The hon. Member for East Ham, North raised a question on the provisions concerning strikes and continuity of service, I want to start by making one thing absolutely clear. This is in no sense an anti-strike Bill. The hon. Gentleman's suggestion that it is an anti-strike Bill is rather odd, when one considers that in many other quarters the provisions of the Bill have been criticised as being inadequate and not worth anything. If they are not worth anything anyway, I cannot see why the hon. Gentleman should be so worried about

  1617
  the strike provisions. This is not a major point.
  The hon. Gentleman criticised the provision that an employee could lose his rights by striking without proper notice. Surely if in this way a worker breaks his continuity of employment it would not be reasonable for his rights to continue automatically. After all, it is the practice of responsible trade union leaders to give proper notice of a strike. I should have thought that the House would welcome a provision of this sort, since it does, whatever may be said, impose some penalty on the unofficial strikes which we all unite in condemning. I was very glad to have the support of my hon. Friend the Member for Mitcham in this.
  Sir S. Summers: Does my hon. Friend accept that a short-term strike is better than an unofficial one in this context?
  Mr. Whitelaw: I do not think I have quite got that point, so I will not comment on it. However, I appreciate what my hon. Friend has said.
  I want to say a few words about the written statements under Clause 4. The hon. Members for Paisley (Mr. J. Robertson) and the Western Isles suggested that the requirements in the Bill for a written statement of a man's terms of employment are unnecessary and will simply mean superfluous paperwork. I am delighted to know that the hon. Members for Southwark and East Ham, North, my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Huntingdonshire and my hon. Friend the Member for Mitcham have all rallied to the support of this provision. They say that it is a good one, and with such widespread support I am clear that it must have considerable value. Of course the requirements will mean some extra paper work for many employers, but we are determined to ensure that there is no more extra paper work than is strictly necessary. In this connection my right hon. Friend has said that he will welcome any suggestions which would simplify this work, while preserving intact the underlying provisions and principle.
  1618
  My right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Huntingdonshire and other hon. Members have urged that the requirements for written statements would be unreasonable for casual labour in agriculture. The Bill does not require a written statement to be given if the employee leaves before five weeks are up. Many casual workers in agriculture do not stay that long or do not work regularly enough to qualify.
  But I do recognise that there are special difficulties on farms. Farmers with only one or two regular employees may take on large numbers of casual workers to help with the fruit picking or harvesting and, with a succession of crops, some of these workers may stay longer than five weeks. I hope that it may be possible to find a way of meeting this real difficulty in Committee.
  The hon. Member for Aberdare raised a small point and suggested that local authority employees should be excluded from the Bill. They are, in fact, not excluded and, frankly, I do not see any particular reason why they should be.
  I cannot hope, I am afraid, to have answered all the points that have been raised. However, I hope that I have been able to show why we believe that it is right to act as proposed in the Bill. I do not see that it is necessary to make any extravagant claims for it. I simply say that whatever cold water may be poured upon it, no one can deny that the Bill represents an important step forward into an entirely new field of legislation.
  It provides further evidence of the positive approach to better human relations in industry which has been pursued with considerable success by my right hon. Friend. It takes its place as an important Measure in this Government's wider plans to fit our country to the challenge of the years ahead and, as such, I commend it to the House.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Bill accordingly read a Second time.
  Bill committed to a Standing Committee pursuant to Standing Order No. 38 (Committal of Bills).

  YORKSHIRE ELECTRICITY BOARD (TARIFFS)
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Peel.]
  Sir Donald Kaberry: I wish to turn the attention of the House away from the consideration of contracts between employers and employees towards a consideration of matters which exist between the Yorkshire Electricity Board and the Yorkshire Electricity Consultative Council. I do so because something like an electric shock was administered to all users of electricity in the area of the Yorkshire Electricity Board at the beginning of January this year.
  Electricity tariffs were to be increased for all consumers, and I think it is right to say that there has been widespread resentment at the timing and the manner in which this action has been taken. I believe that most of my hon. Friends who are representative of constituencies within the Yorkshire Electricity Board's area have been inundated with correspondence from angry victims. I therefore raise the question of the part played by the Consultative Council in the planning of this increase.
  The Consultative Council is established in this way. Section 7 of the Electricity Act, 1947, as amended by Section 7 of the Electricity Act, 1957, authorised the Minister to appoint consultative councils within the area of every electricity board and in appointing the consultative councils the Minister was directed by the Statute to have regard to those recommended as having both adequate knowledge of the requirements of the interests to be represented and also the ability to exercise a wide and impartial judgment on the matters to be dealt with by the council.
  They were charged with the duty, among other things, of
  "… considering any variation in tariffs and the provision of new or improved services, and of considering generally all matters which are the subject of representations made to them by consumers of electricity in the particular area "…
  It being Ten o'clock, the Motion for the Adjournment of the House lapsed, without Question put.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Pym.]
  Sir D. Kaberry: The direct question I want to ask my hon. Friend is a very simple one. If the consultative councils are to be the watchdogs of the area electricity boards, who is to be the watchdog of the watchdogs if they do not appear to be taking care of their charges? It is in this dilemma that I turn to the Minister and to the Parliamentary Secretary, because I suppose they stand in the nature of chief kennel masters.
  I direct my particular attention to the Consultative Council within the area of the Yorkshire Electricity Board. There is a chairman who, I think, has been chairman for several years, and is a member of the main Electricity Board. There is a deputy chairman, and some 26 other members who come from various towns and cities spread across the whole of the Board's area. There are seven area district committees, with 83 members in all, so that there is a very large body of people representative of all elements within the Board's area.
  In page 46 of its report for the year ending 31st March, 1962, the Consultative Council stated:
  "For once there is in this report no reference to a revision of tariffs but the Council are fully cognisant of the fact that tariffs will occupy a good deal of their time in the near future."
  They accepted the proposition that there would he a necessity to increase electricity charges. It went on to state:
  "The Council will scrutinise very closely any proposals for increases to see that these are fairly shared among the different classes of consumers."
  I ask my hon. Friend to pay particular regard to those closing words inset
  "… to see that these"—
  the increased charges:
  "are fairly shared among the different classes of consumers."
  I should like to know how closely the Consultative Council scrutinised the proposals that were put before it in the concluding months of last year by the Yorkshire Electricity Board, and how it dealt with the matter so that those increased charges could be fairly shared among the different classes of consumers.

  1621
  I should like to know, for example, why it was apparently the Consultative Council which took the initiative in requesting the Board to abolish the old idea of making the basic amount payable for electricity dependent on the number of rooms in the house, although I will readily accept from my hon. Friend an argument that some changes had to be made.
  I have had, as I suppose other hon. Members have had, a considerable correspondence with the chairman of the Yorkshire Electricity Board, and I want to acknowledge the courtesy he showed me in giving me the utmost detail in answering the complaints I received from many disgruntled consumers. I was given a copy of the Board's Press statement which, amongst other things, said,
  "All the new tariffs have been the subject of long and detailed discussion with the Consultative Council, its Tariffs Sub-Committee and its seven Area Committees over the past two or three months."
  We were told that the Consultative Council made a number of suggestions for amendment of the Board's original proposals, which the Board agreed to accept.
  At the last meeting of the Consultative Council a resolution was animously approved that a letter of appreciation should be sent to the Board for
  "the closer liaison with the Board than had appertained hitherto."
  I am somewhat concerned about the full implication of this phrase, "closer liaison". We certainly want it, but I wonder how close it has really become. I begin to wonder whether the Consultative Council has, to quote the words of one of my constituents, become
  "a cosy and complacent little crowd who were very happy to follow the orders of the Area Board."
  I have been assured by the chairman of the Area Board that it was only after long debate that the Consultative Council decided to rectify the anomalies which the previous charges were alleged to involve. But I want to know at what point of time the Consultative Council was finally—I quote the words of the chairman of the Area Board—
  "reluctantly persuaded that there was no preferable alternative."
  1622
  How hard was the fight put up by the Consultative Council as watch-dog for the consumers throughout the Board's area? Did it tell the Area Board that it could cut out a lot of the spending which has been a matter of controversy throughout the Yorkshire area for some years, that it could cut out unnecessary advertising urging people to "Go electric", that it could cut out unnecessary expenditure on the setting up and maintenance of showrooms and displays urging householders to "Go electric" while tariffs are low, not mentioning that the tariffs would go up when people had made the change?
  I do not want to go in detail into matters of day-to-day administration, nor do I wish to trepass upon a matter which is at present the subject of investigation by the Select Committee on the Nationalised Industries which is now examining all the implications involved in the nationalised electricity undertakings. I am a member of the Select Committe, and, prior to his high preferment, so was my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary who is to answer tonight. We shall await its report with interest. In the meantime, however, the unfortunate users of electricity in the Yorkshire area, having been persuaded by the Board, by the subtlety of its advertising, to "Go electric", now find themselves afflicted by substantially increased tariffs.
  No doubt, many consumers relied upon the belief that the Consultative Council was their watch-dog and would prevent such a course of events. What would have happened if the Consultative Council in Yorkshire had refused to accept the tariff increases proposed by the Area Board? Would the charges have remained as before? Will the Consultative Council now have regard to the present mood and feelings of consumers?
  I understand that there are about 1,400,000 domestic consumers in the Board's area and it is estimated by the Board that of these about 76 per cent. will have increases under the new tariff of, we are told, not more than 1s. a week. Nobody accepts that statement. No consumer who has written to me or to any of my colleagues believes that their watch-dog members on the Consultative Council could believe such to be correct.

  1623
  I shall refer now to some of the complaints I have received about the increased charges. I have heard from retirement pensioners, people with low incomes, from a blind person who had changed to electricity for heating because he dare not risk oil heaters. Many wrote to say that they had never heard of the area Consultative Council. Some said, "What a time to make increases, when the weather is so bitter", Others had gone to small new houses which were all-electric. One of these people wrote to me and said that he was
  "just a silly fly drawn into the electricity spider's web to be entangled and then stung".
  Many could not understand how it could be alleged that the burden of the increases had been spread fairly over the differing classes of consumer while, they feel, so many economies could be made by the Board. Most ask why the new charges could not be levied in stages so as to soften the blow for many people who will be penalised by this sudden decision.
  I ask the Parliamentary Secretary whether the Consultative Council will meet again and consider all the objections to the increases which have been made. In this regard, I hope quite sincerely that it will have the closest liaison with the Area Board. I hope that the Council will demonstrate that it is not, in fact, a cosy and complacent little crowd prepared to have its objections readily and easily overcome.
  How are members of the Consultative Council recruited? Where does the Council meet? Wilt the Press be allowed freely into its chamber so that its deliberations may be published? Can the public go and have a look at the Council at work? It may be that, in theory, according to Statute, the Council is the watchdog of the consumer. But I want it to be so in actual practice. I want it to do more than bark. I want it to have a bite. and, if it can neither bark nor bite in Yorkshire, I ask the Minister to give us a new pack.
  10.12 p.m.
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Power (Mr. John Peyton): My hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, North-West (Sir D. Kaberry) has raised the subject of electricity prices, particularly those in Yorkshire. I think that
  1624
  he expects some comfort from me. I wish to make it clear that he will not get it. He said that all Yorkshire had had an electric shock. Obviously he has had one himself. From some of the things which he has said, I should like to hazard at least the suspicion that it has upset his judgment slightly—I hope only temporarily.
  My hon. Friend asked me some simple questions, such as who will be the watchdog of the watchdog? Presumably my hon. Friend will volunteer for this task. I can think of no one more suited for it, and, of course, my right hon. Friend and I will be very happy to welcome him in his various appearances in this capacity in the near future.
  I wonder whether my hon. Friend did either the industry or the public a very great service, even though he was good enough to acknowledge the courtesy of the chairman of the Yorkshire Electricity Board, in questioning what the Consultative Council meant in referring to a "closer liaison with the Board" and then quoting this remark about a "cosy and complacent little crowd". It is so easy to quote rather abusive and offensive remarks about voluntary organisations such as this.
  It is worth spending a moment in considering the people on the Council. There is a chairman, who is paid because he is a part-time ex-officio member of the Board, and there is a deputy-chairman. There are eleven local authority representatives, seven of whom come from municipal boroughs, two from urban districts and two from rural districts. There are fourteen representatives of other interests—five industrial and commercial, one agricultural, two trade unionists, four women's organisations and two professional people. I hazard a guess that all these people have one thing in common, namely, that they are all domestic consumers of electricity. They are ordinary people and they are not highly rewarded. Except for the chairman, none of them is paid. They try to do their best to safeguard, as is their duty, the interests of the user of electricity.
  My hon. Friend has said how hard was the fight put up by the Council, and he brought in the question of unnecessary advertisements, which I do not want to go into at great length. He referred to

  1625
  the fact that he was a member of the Select Committee on Nationalised Industries. I had the privilege of being a member of that Committee for some time before I reached my present position. During that time, I may not have learned much, but I learned something of the problems of nationalised industries and I learned a little of some of the difficulties which they face. I very much hope that my hon. Friend, during what, I am sure, will be his distinguished and successful membership of that Committee, will see something of the difficulties with which these people have to deal.
  My hon. Friend asked, among other questions, whether the Consultative Council will meet again. I can he categorical and say that, despite my hon. Friend's onslaught tonight, the Council will certainly meet again. I very much hope that it will maintain close contact with the Board, and, through that contact, will maintain an influence on the Board, which in the past, it has been able successfully to employ.
  My hon. Friend asked what sort of part was played by the Council in this matter. Of course, there was full consultation on all these issues. Some of the suggestions that were put forward to the Board were accepted. Despite the initial plans and intentions of the Board, a uniform first block of higher priced units was put forward by the Council and was accepted by the Board as being sensible. The Council also objected to the acceptance of the mere size of a house as being a suitable criterion upon which to base electricity prices and the Board accepted the Council's view, I think rightly.
  My hon. Friend asked what sort of resistance was put up by the Council to these proposals which have communicated this horrid shock throughout Yorkshire. What is the Council expected to do in these circumstances but to look fairly and uninhibitedly at the proposals which are made? This the Council did. Examining, as it was bound to do, the financial position of the Board, it came to the conclusion, which I believe was inescapable, that there was no preferable, or, indeed, possible, alternative and that the old rate of 9d. per unit was wholly uneconomic.
  The Council adopted instead the tariff, which is now general in the North, of 1·3d. per unit. I remind my hon. Friend that
  1626
  the general tariff in the South is much more like 1·5d. per unit. I shall not go through all the details of the tariffs, but the off-peak tariff remained at 725d. per unit.
  I wonder what my hon. Friend is saying in raising this complaint tonight.
  Sir D. Kaberry: May I help my hon. Friend by referring again, because he does not seem to have grasped the point, to the very words of the Consultative Council about seeing that the increased charges are fairly shared among the different classes of consumer? That is the point that I am making.
  Mr. Peyton: I am coming to that. My hon. Friend's first point is that this immensely steep increase should not have happened at all. One possible view that I would commend to him as worthy of attention is that the reason why the increases were so sharp is that they should have happened before and had been too long postponed.
  My hon. Friend asked me what other action would have been possible had the Council not conceded that the view expressed by the Board was the right one. The answer, as I think my hon. Friend knows very well, is that under Section 7 of the Electricity Act, 1947, representations could have been made by the Council to the Electricity Council, which thereafter would have been free to advise. Alternatively, the Council could have made representations to my right hon. Friend, and I want to make it clear that he is not free to act in such matters unless representations are made to him. But in this case the Council, I think very reasonably, decided that there were no grounds on which it could adopt either of those courses. So, convinced that it was the right and proper thing, the Council decided, having made certain recommendations, some of which were accepted, to endorse the Board's decision.
  My hon. Friend has told us quite plainly that none of his constituents who has written to him is prepared to accept the figure which has been put about by the Board, that 76 per cent. only of the users of electricity will be paying more than 1s. a week. It is probably true to say that only those people who will be paying the exceptionally larger increases have been moved sufficiently to write to my hon. Friend and to other hon. Members

  1627
  on both sides of the House to complain about the matter.
  I want to go at some length into the reasons which led the Board in the first place to promulgate the increased tariffs and the Consultative Council to agree to them. First, there was the usual one, that labour and material costs have increased. Then there is the White Paper which set out the Government's views on the financial obligations of nationalised industries. I know that my hon. Friend is very well aware of its contents, but I must just weary him and the House with a repetition of its main purposes.
  The first purpose, as my hon. Friend knows, was to secure the, so I should have thought, desirable objective that users of electricity should themselves provide a reasonable contribution in terms of capital to meet the demand which they themselves have had and are having a large part in creating. The second purpose was that the level of earnings in a nationalised industry, particularly the electricity industry, should be a little nearer the average earnings of industry on the capital invested.
  Even under the present price increase, against which my hon. Friend has raised such a very sharp complaint, the Board will be earning a surplus of only £4·6 million per annum in each of the next five years. That is quite a modest return on the capital invested. It will still be obliged to borrow 42 per cent. of its capital requirements. He and the House must face this. It is always a disagreeable choice. No one likes to be asked to pay increased prices for any commodity, let alone one so essential as electricity.
  On the other hand, if a customer is not to pay for what he is using, if he is not to produce some share of the capital required by this rapidly expanding industry, who is to provide it? We are faced with only one alternative—the taxpayer. Here we have the bewildering and extraordinary fact that
  1628
  again and again a customer is unable to identify himself with that same person, the taxpayer. The customer who objects to paying wishes to place the whole burden on the taxpayer. In this case the taxpayer is still going to provide 42 per cent. of the capital required by the Board. It does not seem to me unreasonable to ask the user of electricity to provide the rest.
  My hon. Friend referred to the distribution of these extra charges. It is easy to make a great deal of this. The trouble under the previous dispensation was that a great many people had been getting their electricity too cheaply. It was not their fault, but it should have been remedied before. That is no comfort to them, however. Equally, I think that the Board was right in concluding, and the Council was right in endorsing, that there was no excuse for perpetuating a situation in which a few had, at the expense of the many, an unreasonable rate for their electricity.
  Certainly some sections of the people are faced with a sharp and painful increase. I accept without qualification that nobody likes that. My hon. Friend has at least got behind him the indignation of a great many people who have been surprised by this unpleasant turn of events. But I think the Board was entirely justified in this instance and that the Council, looking at the facts, and moved not by a desire to make a noisy agitation and a steaming complaint but by a desire to protect the public as a whole by ensuring that the burden of charges is evenly spread, was abundantly justified in endorsing the Board's decision.
  I should like Ito say how conscious my right hon. Friend and I are of the very valuable and far too often wholly unthanked work done by those councils, and in particular by the Yorkshire one.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Adjourned accordingly at twenty-nine minutes past Ten o'clock.

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Preamble
The House met at three of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Exeter

"WORKING TO RULE"
3.5 p.m.
LORD CONESFORD: My Lords: I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order
Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether the electricity supply industry and the public have recently suffered from the practice called "working to rule"; whether those who indulged in this practice were in fact obeying the rules governing their employment; and, if so, why the employers keep in existence rules which they hope that the men will not obey.]
THE MINISTER OF STATE, BOARD OF TRADE (LORD DERWENT): My Lords, the work-to-rule during the three weeks up to January 20 by a small minority of employees of the Electricity Boards was a major factor in the London area in reducing the supply of electricity and in causing inconvenience to the public. However, the great majority of the men gave service far in excess of what could reasonably be expected of them in conditions of great hardship caused by extreme weather. The rules of the industry necessary for the efficient and proper operation of plant and the safety of employees and the public were observed in the normal way, but there was nothing to suggest that generally it was the rigid application of these rules that caused the trouble. The minority taking part in the miscalled "work-to-rule", however, deliberately withheld the necessary cooperation which usually exists between men and management.
LORD CONESFORD: My Lords, may I thank my noble friend for that Answer, which deserves careful study?
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Do the Government agree that it would be inexcusable for employers to keep in existence rules which they hope the men will not obey; and have Her Majesty's Government satisfied themselves by inquiry that the electricity supply industry, whatever other faults it may have, is not guilty of this absurdity?
LORD DERWENT: My Lords, the answer to both my noble friend's questions is, Yes.
LORD LINDGREN: My Lords, will the noble Lord not agree that in many industries—I think of my own industry, the railway industry, although it applies in electricity and many others—employers, as a result of the old employers' liability legislation, place on the shoulders of the worker the responsibility of making the decision whether he is taking a risk or not, and are therefore hiding behind a rule? On the railways, a shunter should walk all the way round the train instead of going underneath the couplings; a guard should test every door of a train before it moves. It is true that in the electricity industry there are many rules which, if a worker observed them strictly and did not use his own initiative as to when it was safe to break them or not, would mean that the work would not be done as efficiently and effectively as it might be. Rule books ought to be revised by employers, now that we have the Industrial Injuries Act, which has undermined much of the old employers' liability legislation.
LORD DERWENT: My Lords, I can see nothing about railways in the original Question. We are advised that the rules by which the electricity power stations work are for the men's safety, and we hope they will be obeyed.
LORD MORRISON OF LAMBETH: My Lords, I want to say nothing in defence of people who use working to rule for the purpose of mischief and obstructing industrial production, but did not the Chairman of the Central Electricity Board say on television that the unofficial factor was an important but a minor consideration in the upsetting of supplies to the public? The noble Lord in his Answer seems to have said both things: that it was an important factor, and that it was an unimportant factor. Is there not something in the original Question of the noble Lord indicating that these

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rules need looking at, to see whether they are necessary and right in the circumstances or whether they are overdone and possibly asking for trouble at a moment of industrial stress? I do not prejudge upon it, but is this not a question which arises?
LORD DERWENT: My Lords, although I did not see it, I think the television interview to which the noble Lord is referring dealt with electricity in the country as a whole. This was a matter of London. Perhaps I had better add that there were only a small proportion of the men involved in this non-co-operation. The difficulty was that those men were concentrated in the London area, and the non-co-operation occurred at a time when all plant was needed to meet the unprecedented demand for electricity. In normal winter weather this lack of co-operation would probably have had no effect at all.
THE EARL OF SWINTON: My Lords, would the Minister agree that the whole question of what rules should be changed, superseded and altered is much best settled between the employers and the trade unions and is a proper subject for their mutual consideration?
LORD DERWENT: My Lords, I am much obliged to my noble friend. Of course, that is the case. This is not a Government matter. I was trying to answer the Question on the Paper, but it is a matter which should be settled, of course, between the management and the trade unions.
BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGER: My Lords, could the noble Lord not tell us in quite simple terms whether what he has referred to as the non-cooperative minority were keeping rules or breaking them?
LORD DERWENT: My Lords, they were, in fact, keeping the rules. Perhaps it is rather difficult to describe non-co-operation, but it probably varies from what is sometimes known as "playing stupid" to what used to be known in the Army as "dumb insolence".
BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGER: My Lords, are we to draw the inference that the object of rules is to promote non-co-operation?

WILD BIRD'S EGGS
3.14 p.m.
LORD HURCOMB: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order
Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, especially in view of the heavy mortality caused by the hard winter, they will repeal the orders which legalise the taking of the eggs of more than a dozen of our favourite song-birds and garden birds and whether they will do so now, before the coming breeding season.]
THE MINISTER OF STATE, HOME OFFICE (EARL JELLICOE): My Lords, as the noble Lord will be aware, the Advisory Committees for the Protection of Birds have been considering the question of the repeal of these orders in the course of a general review of the working of the Protection of Birds Act, 1954, on which their considered opinion is expected soon. My right honourable friends the Home Secretary and the Secretary of State for Scotland will bring to the attention of the Committees the considerations adduced by my noble friend, together with any information obtainable about the level of mortality.
LORD HURCOMB: My Lords, I thank the noble Earl for that reply, but would proceed to ask him whether it is not a fact that the Advisory Committees have had this matter under consideration for a very long time and whether they have not already expressed a view upon it?
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, I understand that in 1956 the Advisory Committees in fact submitted recommendations to the effect that these orders should be revoked, but at the time neither of the Secretaries of State concerned found sufficient case for reversing the decision of Parliament.
BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGER: My Lords, could the noble Earl tell us whether the Government are arranging for the birds to defer their breeding season until such time as the Government have arrived at their conclusions?
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, I think that is perhaps a question more properly

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directed to the birds' family planning association. Nevertheless, they indulge, I understand, in these pleasurable activities over quite a long period of time—from March to October.
LORD HURCOMB: My Lords, may I ask the noble Earl whether he will give a little more attention to the second part of my Question, which draws attention to the urgency of this matter? Of course, I am not entitled to say what is the present view of the Advisory Committees, but I would ask whether he has any reason at all to think that they have changed the view which they expressed in 1956? May I also remind him that to-day is February 14, St. Valentine's Day, the official beginning of spring and the date on which a great many birds make dates with one another. If this emergency action is to have any effect in respect of the current breeding season, there is not a day to lose.
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, the questions which the noble Lord has just directed towards me find a very sympathetic response in my breast, and we are aware that there is urgency in this matter. May I say, too, that anyone who lives in the country, or indeed, in London, is aware of the tragic loss of bird life at the present time.
LORD HAWKE: My Lords, is my noble friend aware that the favourite song-birds and garden birds of the noble Lord, Lord Hurcomb, are not necessarily those of the much-suffering gardeners of this country?

MINIMUM AGE FOR DIRECTORS
3.18 p.m.
LORD CROOK: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order
Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, with a view to the reduction of opportunities of fraudulent company promotion, they propose to take action so as to introduce a minimum limit of age in respect of appointment of Directors under the Companies Act.]
LORD DERWENT: My Lords, the question of directors' qualifications is one of the matters which Her Majesty's Government have under consideration in their study of the Report of the Company Law
1064
Committee which was presented last June, and the particular matter to which the noble Lord invites attention will be borne in mind in that connection.
LORD CROOK: My Lords, may I ask whether the Minister is aware that at Bristol Assizes last week Mr. Justice McKenna, in sentencing a man to one year's imprisonment, drew attention to the fact that the five directors of the company concerned were a man, his wife and three children, the youngest of whom was eight years of age?
LORD DERWENT: My Lords, I am aware of the case at Bristol. The Companies Act makes no provision as to the minimum age of a director, and a minor may, therefore, be appointed a director. But, as I said, this particular matter is one which will be borne in mind when the Report of the Committee is examined.

MALTA DOCKYARD
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: My Lords, I beg leave to ask a Private Notice Question: Whether Her Majesty's Government can make a statement about the dockyard in Malta?
THE MINISTER OF STATE FOR COLONIAL AFFAIRS (THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE): My Lords, with your Lordships' permission, I will answer the noble Earl's Question at half-past three or as soon as possible thereafter.

MARINE SOCIETY BILL [H.L.]
Read 2a, and referred to the Examiners.
CLYWEDOG RESERVOIR JOINT AUTHORITY BILL [H.L.]
Read 2a, and referred to the Examiners.
DURHAM COUNTY COUNCIL BILL [H.L.]
Read 2a, and committed to a Select Committee.
COUNTY COURTS (JURISDICTION) BILL
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.
COMMONWEALTH SCHOLARSHIPS (AMENDMENT) BILL
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.

WATER RESOURCES BILL [H.L.]
3.20 p.m.
Further considered on Report (according to Order).
Clause 55 [Licence fees]
THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD (LORD ST. OSWALD): My Lords, Amendments Nos. 55 and 56 are related. The first is a paving Amendment for the other, and it would be, I think, for the convenience of the House to take them together. The Amendments are put down following an undertaking I gave at Committee stage on an Amendment in the names of the noble Lords, Lord Champion and Lord Wise. The Amendments provide for a reduced licence fee to be payable in respect of a licence which authorises the abstraction of water from underground for agricultural purposes, other than spray irrigation, and for no other purpose.
Noble Lords will recall that the abstraction of water from underground by or on behalf of an individual for the domestic purposes of his household is not restricted by the Bill, and he who abstracts from an inland water for agricultural purposes, other than spray irrigation, requires no licence, and therefore is liable to pay neither licence fee nor charge. The abstraction of water for agricultural purposes from underground strata needs to be licensed, however, even if the water is not to be used for spray irrigation, because while the individual quantities involved may not be large they are still large enough to affect other abstracters in certain circumstances
The Bill already provides, in Clause 58 (4), that there will be no charges in respect of water abstracted from underground strata in so far as the water is for use for agricultural purposes other than spray irrigation. This Amendment will reduce the abstracter's liability for licence fee to one-fifth of the standard fee. This will mean that he pays £1 where abstracters licensed for other purposes pay £5. Whatever variation may be introduced in the general licence fee, the reduced fee prescribed in this Amendment will vary proportionately. It will remain at one-fifth of the standard fee. I hope that this alteration
1066
may meet the desire of the two noble Lords who moved the original Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 46, line 24, after second ("of") insert ("which the amount (subject to subsection (4) of this section) shall be").—(Lord St. Oswald.)
LORD WISE: My Lords, may I, in one sentence, thank the noble Lord for meeting the point which we raised at an earlier stage?
LORD REA: My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord, to refresh our memory, whether he is still dealing in abstractions or drawings?
LORD ST. OSWALD: Abstractions or drawings, whichever the noble Lord prefers.
LORD DE RAMSEY: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Champion, had he been able to be here, would also have wished to thank the noble Lord for meeting the point in question.
On Question, Amendment agreed to,
LORD ST. OSWALD: My Lords, I beg to move this Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 46, line 36, at end insert—
("(4) In respect of any licence under this Act which relates only to the abstraction of water from underground strata for agricultural purposes other than spray irrigation, the amount of any fee payable under subsection (1) of this section shall be one-fifth of the amount which would be payable apart from this subsection.").—(Lord St. Oswald.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 56:
Charging schemes
56.—
(4) For the purposes of the last preceding subsection the following shall be taken to be relevant circumstances, that is to say—
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS moved to add to subsection (4):
"(e) abstraction or impounding of water under a licence of right".
The noble Viscount said: My Lords, your Lordships will be glad to hear that this is the last Amendment I have down on this Bill, and so it is perhaps pleasant that I can end up on what I hope will be a helpful note to my noble friends on the Front Bench. The purpose of this Amendment is to assist them when they

1067
are considering, as my noble friend Lord Jellicoe said the other day he would, the question of licences of right, under Clauses 34 and 35 of this Bill, because it is really a cognate point.
As the charging scheme stands at the moment, the Bill gives it only a mere embryo form but it is not impossible to see what the sum effect of charges will be on any one particular drawer or abstracter of water. The only thing that has really been said in this respect was said by my noble friend Lord Jellicoe in what I think he meant to be a pacifying sentence on Second Reading, when he said that the sum was likely to be a very few pennies per thousand gallons. This is literally a case in which the penny has taken a long time to drop. The industrialists have been working out what he said and it has occurred to them since that even one penny per thousand gallons might add up to a great many thousands of pounds per year to be paid out under the charging scheme. They feel—and I have no doubt the same thing applies to statutory undertakers and other abstracters or drawers—that where there is an existing licence of right and where sources of water have been tapped in the past, very often at considerable expense, it might be right that these existing sources should pay at a lesser rate than new ones under the charging scheme. At any rate, it is something on the lines on which my noble friend was working on Clauses 34 and 35.
What I have done in moving this Amendment is to suggest that, when it comes to considering charges under Clauses 56 (2), there should be taken into account, as one of the relevant circumstances, the fact that the particular person or series of persons in the river authorities area upon whom the charge is to be made may be considered on their own if they are abstracters or drawers under licence of right, or, indeed, if they have been impounding water under licence of right. This might end up by making a fairer distribution of the charge, whereby these people who have in the past spent money on improving or supplying themselves with sources of water will have to pay rather less in the end under the charging schemes. I do not know whether this suggestion appeals to my noble friends, but I put it forward in the hope that it may be of some assistance
1068
to them. I wonder whether whoever replies may be able to say a little more about these very few pennies, if anything further has been done by way of research on that subject. I know it would allay a little anxiety if people involved could be told.
Amendment moved—
Page 47, line 26, at end insert the said paragraph.—(Viscount Colville of Culross.)
LORD MERRIVALE: My Lords, I should like to say a few words in support of this Amendment, for I believe that under a licence of right there can be many "relevant circumstances" under which a different rate may be charged for abstracting or impounding water. In fact, in the Government White Paper (Cmd. 1693), paragraph 44, it is said, for instance:
"Where an abstracter has himself carried out conservation works there will be a case for a lower rate of charge and perhaps for no charge at all."
As I mentioned to your Lordships last Tuesday, the availability of water for a new factory site was reflected in the price of the land, and therefore the right to abstract water has already been paid for and the industrialist may well have incurred important additional expenditure with regard to pumping of water and so on.
As I said, there may be many "relevant circumstances" under a licence of right. For instance, such industries as light engineering and assembly work, or brick making, need a comparatively small amount of water in relation to their output, while other industries are very large users of water. I will not quote again the words used by my noble friend Lord Jellicoe on Second Reading: they have been mentioned by my noble friend Lord Colville of Culross, and they are in column 1094 of the OFFICIAL REPORT for that day. But as has been said by my noble friend Lord Colville of Culross, those words of the noble Earl, Lord Jellicoe, have caused much disquiet in such industries as chemical manufacture, oil refining, pulp, paper and board manufacture, textile manufacturing and finishing, food processing and preservation and iron and steel. Such industries are perturbed on account of possible increased costs of production.
If I may, I should like to stress my point by quoting an example. According

1069
to the 1958 Report of the United Nations Committee on Water for Industrial Use, the amount of water required per unit of production in America is 600,000 gallons per ton of finished steel. At a charge of 1d. per thousand gallons, it will be seen that that represents a production cost item of £2 10s. per ton of steel. In the circumstances, I sincerely hope that my noble friend will agree that there may be many "relevant circumstances" in regard to the question of charges under a licence of right. May I end by quoting the words of Mr. H. E. Hopthrow, who was a member of the Proudman Committee? He said:
"The price and cost that industry can tolerate varies from product to product, depending on qualities and quantities involved".
3.32 p.m.
THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF HOUSING AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT (LORD HASTINGS): My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Colville of Culross, for explaining so clearly the purpose of this Amendment, because I must say that I was not too certain what precisely lay behind it. There is just one small point that I should like to refer to before dealing with the main argument. It is that licences of right do not, of course, apply to impounding works, but only to abstractions. There is nothing payable in respect of impounding, apart from the licence fee: there are no charges related to impounding works, only to abstractions. That of course is just a minor detail of drafting.
The noble Viscount has said quite frankly that he is trying to introduce a new factor which would secure some preferential treatment in respect of charges levied on holders of licences of right, and I must say straight away that the Government feel that there is no justification for singling out existing abstracters in this way. In the first place, the special position of a holder of a licence of right is recognised by the provision in Clause 59 that he shall pay no interim charges before the charging scheme comes into operation; and by reason of this provision, of course, the present abstracter will have several years of warning before he is required to pay any charges for his water. But while this seems to us justifiable, as a way of cushioning the effect of the Bill at the
1070
outset, a permanent concessionary rate is quite another thing; and we do not think that is desirable or justifiable, because it is a basic principle of the Bill that everybody must contribute towards conservation work, otherwise the national scheme cannot function properly.
I would ask noble Lords to consider for a moment what this Amendment might mean—and I think I am bound to point to Amendment No. 60, which is to be moved presently by Lord Lindgren, which goes a little further and repeats a request he made on Committee stage, that statutory water undertakers should not pay any charge for their licence of right either now or in the future. On that occasion my noble friend Lord Colville of Culross supported the Government's attitude and spoke strongly against that. I am therefore a little surprised that he should now seem to be contradicting himself and supporting an Amendment which I think comes from the point of view of industry, that there should be a substantially reduced charge for a licence of right.
It is quite clear that the bulk of charges, when the charging schemes come into effect, will be based upon what will at that time be licences of right—in other words, the bulk of abstraction of water is something that is with us now, a matter of the present and the past. But future abstractions will not amount to the present abstractions, one would imagine, for a long time to come. Therefore, if we are going to spread charges over the whole of the abstracters, in order to pay for the national conservation work which is deemed to be necessary, those charges would fall, if this Amendment were accepted, largely on new abstractions. And those new abstractions would probably be made by industry and statutory water undertakers and spray irrigators. If the present abstractions were either to be given at much-reduced rates, or exempted altogether, then, by and large, the same people would as a result be paying more for their new abstractions, and they would lose on the swings what they gain on the roundabouts. I think that is broadly the correct picture. We feel that it is much better to bring everybody in when these charging schemes are made, and to apportion the overheads for new

1071
conservation work throughout the whole field.
I hope that my noble friend who moved this Amendment will see the strength of my argument, and will feel that he should not press this Amendment; and I hope perhaps, when we come to Amendment No. 60, that he will not change the views he expressed on a previous occasion. In regard of the remarks made by my noble friend Lord Merrivale, and also a request by the noble Viscount, Lord Colville of Culross, I do not think I can possibly at this stage go into the details of costs of water for industry, or any other user of water. But I can give an assurance that the matter has been, and is, being studied by the Ministry of Housing and Local Government. There has been much consultation on this problem, and we shall hope on Third Reading to say something about it which we believe will allay the anxieties that have been expressed to-day.

MALTA DOCKYARD
3.40 p.m.
THE MINISTER OF STATE FOR COLONIAL AFFAIRS (THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE): My Lords, with your Lordships' permission I will now reply to the Question put to me earlier by the noble Earl, Lord Listowel. I will repeat the exact words used by my right honourable friend in reply to a similar Question in another place.
"The House will recollect that in 1958, owing to changes in our naval deployment, it was decided that the Admiralty Dockyard at Malta should be converted and operated as a commercial ship-repairing yard. A long lease was granted to a new Company, Bailey (Malta), Limited, formed for this purpose by C. H. Bailey Limited, of Newport, Monmouthshire. Under agreements with the Company, Her Majesty's Government have undertaken to make loans up to a total of £7¼ million to help meet the cost of the conversion and equipment of the Yard and to provide working capital. Up to date about £3 million have been advanced.
"In 1960, certain financial transactions of the Company caused concern
1072
and an investigation was carried out by Sir Richard Yeabsley, Accountant Adviser to the Board of Trade. In the light of his Report, my predecessor required the Company to appoint two independent Directors nominated by him, Sir Richard Yeabsley and Mr. Hanning Phillips. At the same time, a third independent Director, Mr. Lawrence Robson, nominated by the Company, was also appointed. These three Directors all resigned in April, 1962.
"Thereupon my predecessor appointed Mr. J. R. Muirie, a Partner of Peat, Marwick, Mitchell and Company, Chartered Accountants, to inspect the Company's accounts.
"Last August, Mr. Muirie submitted his report, which is now available in the Vote Office. The facts revealed in the report convinced me that the Company had in a number of respects not been conducting its business in a proper manner. I accordingly called upon the Company to remedy the matters complained of within 30 days, as provided for in the Financial Agreement with Her Majesty's Government.
"Since the Company took no steps to put things right, I decided to adopt a procedure provided for in the Agreement for the replacement of certain Directors. However, the Company issued a writ, which among other things questioned my right to take this course. In view of this action by the Company it would obviously have been improper for me to seek to replace the Directors who were conducting the litigation against the Government. Having therefore felt obliged to abandon this course, I sought redress under another clause of the Agreement which provides that when breaches of the Agreement are not remedied by the Company the Government is entitled to claim repayment of the loans advanced. I caused a writ to be issued for this purpose on January 17.
"In view of the situation revealed by the Muirie Report it was obviously not possible to continue to advance further public money to the Company or to enter into contracts with it for Admiralty repairs. It was equally impossible to allow the Dockyard, which is one of Malta's most important sources of employment, to be brought

1073
to a standstill, pending the settlement of the litigation, which will probably take many months.
"The Prime Minister of Malta and I discussed the whole situation when he was over here in December and we have since then kept in close touch. As a result, we agreed that some way must be urgently found of putting the Dockyard under a new and trusted management, to whom loan payments could be resumed and with whom Admiralty contracts could be placed.
"I discussed the matter with the Chairman and Managing Director of the Company, Group Captain Bailey and Mr. Christopher Bailey, to see whether the necessary change of management could be effected by agreement. However, despite protracted talks it proved impossible to secure their consent to any arrangement which I would have felt able to justify to the House.
"In the absence of any agreed solution, the Prime Minister of Malta, after discussions with me, has decided to introduce to-day in the Malta Legislature, a Bill to set up a Council of Administration to whom most of the functions of the Board of the Company will be temporarily transferred, pending the settlement of the issue, either by negotiation or by the Courts. This action has my full support. The Bill also provides that any powers conferred on the Council of Administration which are found not to be necessary for the discharge of their responsibilities can be transferred back to the Board of Directors.
"The members of the Council of Administration will be appointed by the Prime Minister of Malta after consultation with the Colonial Secretary.
"Subject to the passage of the Bill, Sir Eric Millbourn, who has great experience in shipping matters and port administration and is port adviser to the Minister of Transport, will be appointed Chairman of the Council. The other members will include Sir Nicholas Cayzer, Chairman of the British and Commonwealth Shipping Company, Mr. Guy Densem the senior partner in Deloitte, Plender, Griffiths and Company, Chartered Accountants, and Lord Melchett, a Director of M. Samuel and Company, Merchant Bankers. The Prime Minister of
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Malta and I wish to express our thanks to these gentlemen for agreeing, without remuneration, to serve on this Council and to give Malta the benefit of their wide business experience. I understand that they may consider appointing a leading firm of ship repairers to act as Managing Agents.
"These arrangements will enable us to make further loan payments to finance the conversion of the Dockyard and to resume Admiralty orders. Subject to a satisfactory contract, the First Lord proposes in the near future to send H.M.S. 'Troubridge' to Malta for a major refit. This should provide employment for several hundred men for over a year.
"Her Majesty's Government and the Government of Malta have from the start been extremely reluctant to intervene. We have, however, felt it our duty to do so in order to ensure the proper use of public money and to protect the interests of the many thousands of Maltese people whose livelihood is directly or indirectly dependent upon the Dockyard."
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: My Lords, I am sure we are all very grateful to the noble Marquess for his statement. He will appreciate that it will cause very great concern, because the maintenance of employment in the Dockyard is, as he says, vital to the economy and the social life of Malta, as any noble Lord who has been there well knows. May I ask whether the noble Marquess can give us any assurance that when existing Admiralty contracts have been completed the dockyard will not come to a standstill before a new firm has taken over from Bailey's? That seems to me to be a point of cardinal importance. Apart from that, I only wish to say that we will study with very great care his statement and the Report of the Accountant, which is now in the Vote Office, and we may wish to raise the matter again in your Lordships' House.
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: My Lords, I think it is generally accepted, that one of the guiding principles in everything we have done was as far as possible to ensure a high rate of employment in Malta. In so far as the noble Earl's question is concerned, I cannot tell him that we can guarantee any particular

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volume of Admiralty work, but I think I should make it quite clear that it is our hope that, through the conversion of this dockyard—which temporarily, of course, has been delayed, as we were not in a position to continue to advance funds—there will be a steady increase in merchant shipping. This, we hope, will be one of the principal means of maintaining a high level of manpower. There has so far, I am happy to say, been no indication that it will be necessary to reduce the manpower. With the conversion proceeding as fast as it will be able to do, I sincerely hope that the amount of merchant shipping this yard will be able to handle will help to maintain a high level of employment. I hope that that answers the noble Earl's question.
LORD REA: My Lords, would the noble Marquess confirm that the Council of Administration will, in fact, carry on the daily work of this port until such time as some new firm takes over?
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: That is roughly the position, my Lords. It is their hope that a firm of managing agents—that is to say, a firm experienced in the work of ship repairing—may come in to do this work. But I want to make it quite clear that the firm of Bailey (Malta), Limited, remains in existence, with the powers of the directors temporarily assumed by the Council of Administration.
THE EARL OF SWINTON: My Lords, may I ask the noble Marquess a question, because I do not know whether I have correctly understood his original Answer? Who is going to find the finance which will be required in the meantime, for working capital and so on?
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: My Lords, the object of this operation is to enable Her Majesty's Government to continue in the financing of the conversion of the dockyard. So far, we have advanced something over £3 million, and our undertaking was to advance £7¼ million. Now, under the arrangements which we hope will come into effect after this Bill is passed in Malta, it will be possible for us to continue to advance these large sums of money.
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, may I ask the noble Marquess whether, in
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view of this extraordinary statement this afternoon, and anticipating the Report that we shall study, and in view of the statement that it would appear that there have been some irregularities in the operation of this company as well as possible court action between Her Majesty's Government and the home company, Parliament will be denied the opportunity of discussing this Report and this statement in the near future?
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL AND MINISTER FOR SCIENCE (VISCOUNT HAILSHAM): My Lords, any possibility of Parliamentary discussion should, I think, be considered through the usual channels and after perusal of the Report.

WATER RESOURCES BILL [H.L.]
3.52 p.m.
Report stage resumed.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: My Lords, if I may revert to my Amendment on the Water Resources Bill, I should first like to thank my noble friend Lord Hastings for what he said, and in particular for his promise to say something on Third Reading about the impact and the amounts that may occur under these charging schemes. I am glad to know that his Ministry are considering this matter carefully and I wonder whether, with all their virtues, they might profitably also go to see the Board of Trade about it, because I think that there is a joint responsibility, at any rate so far as industry is concerned.
On the major aspect of the Amendment itself, I am sorry that he did not like my suggestion. It was, as I said, intended to be helpful. I certainly did not anywhere say that I expected substantial reductions or indeed exemptions for the holders of licences of right; and I do not think that this Amendment is in itself inconsistent with the remarks I made on Committee stage, when the noble Lord, Lord Lindgren, asked that statutory water undertakers should be exempt. Indeed, I have not changed my view about that. But what I would indeed ask my noble friend to do, if he rules out this as a line by which licences of right may be attacked, is to give even more careful consideration to the difficulties under Clauses 34 and 35, because I think there

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are serious and quite real difficulties and anxieties felt by the people who now have these sources of water, and who have spent quite a lot of money in developing them. Therefore, if he rules out this one, which I quite accept, I hope he will give even greater care to the position created under the previous clauses. I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD HASTINGS: My Lords, this is a drafting Amendment paving the way for the proposed new clause after Clause 58. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 47, line 32, leave out from ("prepared") to ("and") in line 33.—(Lord Hastings.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD DE RAMSEY LORD DE RAMSEY moved to add to subsection (6):
"Every charging scheme shall make provision for securing that no charges shall be levied under the scheme in respect of water authorised to be abstracted from an inland water at periods of high flow (such periods to be defined in the scheme) for the purposes of storage for subsequent spray irrigation."
The noble Lord said: My Lords, I realise that in moving this Amendment I am referring to an aspect of this Bill which I raised at Committee stage. I make no apology for doing this, because it seems to me to be a most important aspect of conserving water. I have always welcomed this Bill warmly, but there is one thing in the back of my mind which gives me some anxiety. We are creating an organisation to conserve water which is no doubt capable of achieving great results, but will these results be achieved at so great a cost that some customers will not be able to benefit? I need not tell your Lordships that large-scale works for conservation of water are costly in money, time and land. That is why I think we ought to offer every encouragement to any method which will economise in the use of all three.
The best method seems to be to encourage the private owner or enterprise to construct their own reservoirs, and we can only encourage them by letting them take flood water free of cost. The Minister pointed out at the Committee stage that, under Clause 58, it was possible for river authorities to do the
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very thing that I am asking; but clearly he has not dismissed my point since there is a Government Amendment down to Clause 58 giving a right of appeal to the Minister, for which I should like to thank him. In the event of the applicant being dissatisfied with the terms negotiated with the river authorities, he may appeal to the Minister. Furthermore, I think he gave an assurance that he would be watching the authorities' charging schemes and giving advice on them. But he argued on Committee stage that it would be wrong to scramble new authorities. I am suggesting that, though this is a reasonable and cautious approach, it is not really promoting water conservation as it might. If, as he comes to this fence, he will throw his heart over first, cheap and prompt water conservation will follow.
It may be asked: why give this benefit only to the irrigator? I am not seeking to confine it to the irrigator, but it is the case of the irrigator which I know and can speak about. If it is desired to spread it, I certainly have no objection, and am convinced that it would be in the general interest of conservation. Again, it may be asked how the river authority can fix a flow at which to allow reservoirs to be filled free. Even if I could, it is not for me to offer technical advice. But since the Bill itself incorporates arrangements for fixing minimum flows, I should have thought that the fixing of a maximum flow above which water would be classified as flood water, would be a deal easier. I am confirmed in this opinion by the fact that one river board at least is positively encouraging farmers to construct reservoirs, which they can fill when the flow in the river is high. For these reasons I think I am justified in asking the Hausa to accept this Amendment. In doing so, I would also ask the Minister whether he would wish to say anything further on charges relating to water authorised, which question I brought up previously at the Committee stage. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 48, line 7, at end insert—
("Every charging scheme shall make provision for securing that no charges shall be levied under the scheme in respect of water authorised to be abstracted from an inland water at periods of high flow (such periods to be defined in the scheme) for the purposes of storage for subsequent spray irrigation.").—(Lord De Ramsey.)
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, the Amendment which the noble Lord, Lord De Ramsey, has just moved with his usual lucidity is, as he said, identical to that which he moved at Committee stage. In Committee, I gave your Lordships the reasons why we did not feel able to accept this Amendment, even though we were not unsympathetic to the purposes behind it. The noble Lord's Amendment has not changed; nor, I fear to tell him, have our objections to it. I am sure your Lordships will not wish me to repeat those objections at length. However, I think it would be right if I were to remind you briefly of them.
In the first place, we cannot accept the noble Lord's Amendment since, as we read it, it would single out those abstracting for one particular purpose—namely, spray irrigation—and put them in a privileged position vis-à-vis other abstracters. During our Committee stage, and indeed now at Report, the noble Lord queried whether his Amendment would in fact have this discriminatory effect, but I must confess I feel now, as I felt at Committee, that it would be bound to have that effect in view of the precise wording of the last line of it, which I should like to quote:
"…for the purposes of storage for subsequent spray irrigation".
The noble Lord says he does not necessarily wish to confine the Amendment to those purposes, but, of course, his wording does so confine it; and, as it does, we feel—and I must repeat that we feel—it would be quite wrong to single out one particular abstracter in this way for this particular and very marked benefit.
My second objection is that while I agree that at times of flood water may be surplus, I pointed out at Committee that his Amendment speaks of periods of high flow, and I suggested then that it might be difficult to determine what was a period of high flow. Now I would grant that the noble Lord may be on the target when he suggests that if we can determine a minimum acceptable flow we should be able to determine what is a high flow. Nevertheless, I do not think it would be altogether easy to determine what is a high flow for this purpose.
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My third objection to the Amendment is that the Bill as drafted already goes a long way, in our view, to meet the noble Lord's point. I said at Committee, and I am glad to repeat now, that we think impounding schemes of the sort which the noble Lord has in mind under his Amendment are desirable. We wish, like him, to see them encouraged. We trust that the river authorities will encourage them; and we consider that a good way of encouraging them is for the river authorities to introduce differential, preferential charges in respect of such impounding schemes. Now such preferential charges are provided for under subsection (4) of Clause 56, and again, indeed, under Clause 58. Under these clauses, a river authority, if it so judges fit, will be able to provide for differential charging to the extent, if it so desires, of nil charging. Again as I said at Committee, and as the noble Lord mentioned in moving his Amendment, we are proposing to give the river authorities guidance about such charging schemes, and they will, of course, be subject to my right honourable friend's approval.
Furthermore, as the noble Lord has said, if your Lordships accept the two Amendments which I shall be shortly moving, Amendments No. 59B and 59D, you will be incorporating in Clause 58 a right of appeal to my right honourable friend the Minister of Housing and Local Government against a refusal of a river authority to enter into an agreement under Clause 58 or against the terms proferred by an authority for such an agreement. That is to meet a point which the noble Lord, Lord De Ramsey, and my noble friend Lord Merrivale made during our Committee stage. If a farmer can show that, by reason of the storage he has provided and the time when he seeks to abstract water, he is making—and I quote the words of Clause 58 (2) (a):
"…a beneficial contribution towards the fulfilment of the purposes of the river authority's new functions",
there is a strong possibility that he will be able to obtain a reduction of the charges payable under the charging scheme.
In sum, my Lords, I am still unable to advise your Lordships to accept the noble Lord's Amendment. On reflection,

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perhaps, I should not wish to rely overmuch on the argument about the difficulty of how to determine what is a period of high flow but I feel that my other two objections—that this singles out a man who wishes to abstract for purposes of spray irrigation for special preferential treatment, and that we are already providing in this Bill for differential charging—remain valid. I would readily admit that in certain circumstances a nil charge might be both legitimate and desirable, but the circumstances may well vary from one river authority to another, and within the area of a given authority from one district to another. In view of this and all the other arguments I have sought to advance, I would suggest that this Amendment must still be resisted.
Having said that, I should like to respond to the noble Lord's invitation and to make one thing crystal clear—that is, that we recognise the growing importance of spray irrigation and are most anxious to ensure that the spray irrigator is not unfairly handicapped. Your Lordships will remember that during our Committee stage the noble Lord, Lord De Ramsey, moved an Amendment to Clause 56 whereby charges would be related to quantities actually abstracted as opposed to quantities authorised to be abstracted. He had the special position of the spray irrigator in mind in so doing. My noble friend Lord St. Oswald argued, I thought powerfully and cogently, against the Amendment moved by the noble Lord, but said that he would like to give further consideration, among other things, to a compromise suggestion which the noble Lord, Lord Walston, had ventilated. I should like to take this opportunity, since we are dealing in this Amendment with the position of the spray irrigator, of saying a word or two about our intentions here.
We have given very close attention to this matter since Committee stage and fully accept that in many areas in a typical year a spray irrigator is likely to abstract much less water than the maximum amount of his need in a dry year. That is perfectly obvious; and that maximum amount will be bound to be the amount for which, if he is a prudent man like Lord De Ramsey or Lord Walston, he would obtain a licence to abstract. In this case, the difference between peak need and actual need is
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both large and quite unpredictable. Accordingly, the Government have concluded that if suitable provisions can be devised it would be right to afford the spray irrigator an alternative basis of charge to that set down in Clause 56, subsection (2). It has not been at all easy to frame a suitable Amendment, and I do not at present know whether we shall be able to construct a watertight one in time for it to be discussed in your Lordships' House. In view of this, I feel it might be helpful if I were now to say what we have in mind.
Our proposed Amendment would provide that the river authority might make an agreement with the holder of a licence for abstraction of water for use for spray irrigation providing for charges in two parts. The first would be a basic charge calculated by reference to the quantity of water authorised to be abstracted; the second would be a supplementary charge calculated by reference to the quantity actually abstracted. Both parts of the charge would be payable annually. Noble Lords will appreciate that in such a two-part arrangement the charge for a given quantity of water authorised to be taken may be expected to be less than that provided for under a Clause 56 scheme, but the charge for a given quantity of water actually taken might be expected to be greater than the charge for an equivalent quantity authorised to be taken.
As we at present see it, a river authority, in deciding whether to make such an arrangement, should be required to have regard to two factors. The first would be the extent to which the quantity of water abstracted during any year (or that part of any year during which the licence authorises abstraction) is likely to be less than the quantity authorised to be abstracted during that period. The second factor would be how often over a period of not less than five years the actual abstraction is likely to be less than the authorised abstraction.
Now it is obvious that by choosing one basis of charge, namely, the charging scheme in a dry year, and another, the proposed agreement, in a wet year, the spray irrigator should have the best of both worlds and the river authority would have the worst of both. As a result we feel that any such agreement must run for a number of years—not less than five years is the sort of period we have

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in mind. Provision will be necessary to deal with the position where, for one reason or another, an agreement needs to be terminated. I should perhaps add that we think that there should be the same sort of provision for settlement of disputes about this type of agreement, as there will be for agreements under Clause 58 should our proposed Amendments, which I shall shortly be moving, to that clause be accepted.
I am sorry that we have not been able to devise an Amendment embodying these principles in time for them to be discussed at our Report stage. I hope, however, that what I have said makes it clear that we appreciate the fact that the spray irrigator may find himself in a rather special position and that, although I am not able to accept the particular Amendment which the noble Lord has moved, we are prepared to try to devise a scheme which will strike a reasonable balance between the requirements of the spray irrigator, the revenue of the river authorities and the vagaries of the British climate.
4.13 p.m.
LORD WILLIAMS OF BARNBURGH: My Lords, I think the noble Earl has gone almost as far as we could expect in this very difficult and complex problem. The noble Earl mentioned that spray users would not require so much water in some seasons as in others; but there is, of course, the other side of that question which was raised during the Committee stage—namely, that in a dry season the river authority would naturally have the power to limit the quantity of water permitted to individuals. That is one of the points we had in mind. The words, "time to time", in Clause 56 (2) seem to cover the point we raised. I think it was so intended. But the scheme outlined by the noble Earl just now is still in embryo. It seems we must wait until we see it on the Marshalled List to find what actually has been worked out. So long as the Government can accomplish what the noble Earl has set out to accomplish, then I think the noble Lord on the Liberal Benches and myself and the noble Lord, Lord Walston, and indeed any other Member of your Lordships' House, will be ready to agree.
It is clear from the noble Earl's expressed sentiments that he had a lot of
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sympathy with the case. I hope that when he produces this scheme cases like those seasons where an irrigator needs for his crops a large quantity of water which is not available and the use of which he is denied even if it were, will be borne in mind. The noble Earl mentioned a period of five years. That sounds fairly equitable, but, in view of the vagaries of our climate, I am not sure that three years would not be about the right time to settle on. So long as the intentions of the noble Earl are as good as I think, then I do not see why we should oppose on this point.
LORD DE RAMSEY: My Lords, I am naturally disappointed that the Minister cannot go that little bit further on Clause 58 and accept my Amendment. Like the noble Lord, Lord Williams of Barn-burgh, I should like to thank the Minister for having given the charges scheme for authorised water such careful thought and for having in mind a method of meeting the position of the irrigators. Although it may be difficult from the administrative point of view to work it out, I have great confidence that that will materialise and that he will get, as a result, under a set scheme, much better co-operation from the farming community and from the irrigators than he would under Clause 56 as now in the Bill. I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 57 [Supplementary provisions as to charging schemes:]
4.15 p.m.
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, this Amendment is purely a drafting Amendment and is intended to take account of Amendments which we shall be moving in the course of dealing with Schedule 6. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 48, line 12, leave out the first ("that") to end of line 15 and insert ("paragraph 4 of that Schedule shall have effect in relation to a charging scheme with the omission of sub-paragraphs (c) to (f)").—(Earl Jellicoe.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 58 [Exemptions from, and reduction of, charges]:
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, this Amendment and Amendment 59D are

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linked. It might be convenient to consider them together. They arise from an undertaking which I gave to the noble Lord, Lord De Ramsey, and the noble Lord, Lord Merrivale, on this point at Committee stage. Their purpose is quite simple. It is to provide a right of appeal to my right honourable friend the Minister of Housing and Local Government against the refusal of a river authority to make an agreement under Clause 58 (1) or against the terms proffered by an authority for such an agreement. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 48, line 29, leave out ("make an agreement with any person") and insert ("on the application of any person, make an agreement with him").—(Earl Jellicoe.)
LORD MERRIVALE: My Lords, I would express my appreciation to the noble Lord. I thought the noble Lord, Lord De Ramsey, was going to rise, but he did not. I supported him previously and should like to express my appreciation to the noble Earl, Lord Jellicoe.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD HASTINGS: My Lords, the purpose of this Amendment is to make it clear that when a river authority consider the extent to which another person's works have made a "beneficial contribution towards the fulfilment of the purposes" of their new functions, the authority are to take into account works built before the passing of this Bill, as well as those carried out after its enactment. This will be particularly relevant where statutory water undertakers are concerned; it is only fair that their existing conservation works should be taken into account. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 48, line 36, leave out from first ("constructed") to ("have") in line 37, and insert ("(whether before or after the passing of this Act) by that person or any works to be constructed by him").—(Lord Hastings.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, I beg to move this Amendment formally.
Amendment moved—
Page 48, line 47, at end insert—
("( ) Without prejudice to the exercise of the power conferred by the last preceding subsection, if on any application under this section the river authority refuse to make an agreement with the applicant as mentioned in subsection
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(1) of this section, or the applicant objects to the terms of such an agreement as proposed by the river authority and that objection is not withdrawn, the applicant or the river authority may refer the question in dispute to the Minister; and on any such reference the Minister shall determine that question, having regard to the matters to which, in accordance with subsection (2) of this section, the river authority were required to have regard in relation to the applicant.
(5) Any decision of the Minister on a reference under the last preceding subsection shall be final; and the Minister may give directions to the river authority requiring them to make an agreement with the applicant in accordance with his decision.").—(Earl Jellicoe.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
4.20 p.m.
LORD LINDGREN LORD LINDGREN moved, after subsection (3) to insert:
"( ) Every charging scheme shall make provision for securing that no charges will be levied under the scheme in respect of water authorised (in whatsoever terms, and whether expressly or by implication) to be abstracted by statutory water undertakers by a statutory provision which was passed, made or issued either—

(a) before the end of the initial period, whether before or after the passing of this Act, or

(b) after the end of that period, but in pursuance of an application made to the Minister before the end of that period, whether before or after the passing of this Act."

The noble Lord said: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Hastings, has already made reference to this Amendment in dealing with the previous one; and, as he said, I moved a similar Amendment during Committee stage. I am very tempted—and but for the question of time would do so—to go through the arguments which the noble Lord then put forward against my Amendment, because, with the greatest respect, I do not think that they were all basically valid. What I propose to do this afternoon is to abbreviate the arguments, to punch them home, if I may use that phrase.
Up to the present time, a statutory water undertaker who requires to abstract has had to carry out the necessary works in order that abstraction can be effectively and efficiently done. In order to do that, he has had to go to considerable capital expense, because the existing customers of the statutory water undertaker could not possibly pay for the whole of the capital outlay in one year. As a result, the cost has to be spread over a

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number of years. Thus, there is a heavy capital debt already existing on abstracters, on which they have to pay considerable interest charges every year. If this charges scheme comes into effect, and existing abstractions are not exempted, it seems to me obvious that the statutory undertakers will be paying twice. They are already carrying on heavy interest charges—and, as I read the Bill, there is no question of the river authority taking over the existing capital obligations of the statutory undertaker—and now they have to carry capital obligations for works which have no direct benefit to them. That seems to me unfair.
The noble Lord, Lord Hastings, said earlier that this was a case of the statutory undertakers contracting out of existing obligations. But there is already contracting out. After all, Clause 56 gives the right to river authorities to vary their charges. I do not complain about that. Obviously, if electricity companies or industrialists take large quantities of water and return them almost immediately into the source of supply, they should be charged at a low rate. Farmers also will be supplied at a low rate. Therefore, there is already a varying of charges, and it does not seem to me to be unfair or unreasonable that those who benefit by new construction works, which a river authority have undertaken, should pay for that benefit.
It is not as though the river authority were in the same position as the statutory undertaker. Hundreds of thousands of persons take a supply from the statutory undertaker. They make the same charge, for example, upon two houses of the same rateable value, but in one house there may be a man and wife, both out all day, whose actual consumption of water is very low, while next door there may be a family of five or six children, whose consumption is very high. Yet both families pay the same charge, though it levels out in the end. The river authority, providing bulk abstractions, which may require further capital works, will however, have comparatively few customers, and therefore the apportionment of the cost according to the benefit arising from works seems to me fairer than spreading it over the existing undertakers who have already carried out works and still have considerable charges.
One other point occurs to me. I wonder whether this may not cause a certain amount of delay in the carrying out of works by a statutory undertaker who might require further abstractions. Instead of making a contribution and doing their own work, they might delay and leave it to the river authority, to save money on it because of the spread-over. In a charges scheme such as this, I do not think it unreasonable or unfair that payment should lie where benefit lies.
LORD HENLEY: My Lords, I hope that the Government will not give way on this point. I feel that there is a certain confusion about what conservation really means here. If this Amendment were accepted, it would strike at the whole basis of the idea of payment for water conservation. I know that in the past undertakers have spent large capital sums, but surely Clause 56 takes care of this writing off or writing down of these capital works. If all existing works are excused from having to pay this royalty (as it were) towards the cost of water conservation, then water conservation cannot be properly carried out. I do not feel that there is any unfairness here to undertakers who in the past have spent large sums. These are two different problems—water conservation, on the one hand, and distribution, on the other. They are not the same, and I hope that the Minister will resist this Amendment.
LORD SINCLAIR OF CLEEVE: My Lords, following what the noble Lord, Lord Henley, said, I hope that when we come to Third Reading an opportunity will be provided for a full debate on the whole philosophy of these charges, as was rather indicated by the noble Lord, Lord Hastings. I think that there is a great deal of anxiety, and possibly some misunderstanding, about how this charges scheme will work. I feel that there is great weight in the argument used by the noble Lord, Lord Lindgren, in the conclusion of his remarks on this Amendment, that one of the principles to be enshrined in this scheme, so far as is practicable, is that the charge for the cost of new works should fall directly on those who benefit from such works.
LORD HASTINGS: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Lindgren, for summarising his case so

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succinctly and, if I may say so, so well. I shall pay particular attention to the remarks of my noble friend Lord Sinclair of Cleeve about the philosophy of charges: I think that that would be a very suitable subject for Third Reading. I would also thank the noble Lord, Lord Henley, for supporting the case which I have already partially made, when replying to an Amendment moved by my noble friend Lord Colville of Culross.
It seems to me that the noble Lord, Lord Lindgren, has not made out a stronger case than he did on Committee stage and has not succeeded in demolishing my arguments on that occasion. I think that he is a great deal too anxious about this question of charging. The situation is not so bad as he thinks. As he himself pointed out—and the noble Lord, Lord Henley, agreed—the Bill allows for and clearly envisages reduced charges, and even exemptions from charge for an abstracter who has himself built or has contributed to the cost of works which serve the purpose of water conservation; and I moved an Amendment a moment or two ago to make it clear that this applied to work carried out before the Act comes into being. Therefore, statutory water undertakers who have built impounding reservoirs and who are providing compensation water to the river they impound may expect at the least very substantial remission of the standard charges. That is partly an answer to the noble Lord's complaint that they have to pay heavy capital loan charges and would, as a result, in a manner of speaking, be paying twice if they also paid for abstraction charges to the river authority.
There is a point which arises out of this that I must mention to the noble Lord: namely, that it is not in all cases that statutory water undertakings are drawing from impounding reservoirs. They may be making direct abstractions without having undertaken conservation works, and obviously, even following the noble Lord's argument, it would not be right that they should be exempt from charges for abstractions of that sort. I do not think the case the noble Lord put forward in regard to paying twice is as strong as all that.
Again, I should like to repeat what I said to my noble friend Lord Colville
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of Culross: that water undertakers holding licences of right will not be charged for a good many years, pending the coming into operation of the charging schemes, and that, of course, represents the bulk of supply. It seems to the Government that there is no reason for going beyond this point and trying to differentiate financially between water undertakers and other types of abstracters. After all, why should one commercial undertaking be distingushed from another? And I do not think there is any argument that statutory water undertakers are commercial undertakings. That is looked after under another clause which we shall come to in due course. But that has nothing to do with charges. Statutory obligations have to do with supply, which is another matter that we shall deal with under another Amendment. In respect of charges, I revert to what I said to my noble friend Lord Colville of Culross: that if the water undertakings were not to pay on their licences of right, then clearly they, and other people, would have to pay a great deal more as a result of new works carried out.
That brings me to the second argument put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Lindgren, when he said that new works should be charged out to those who benefit. So far as I remember, he did not distinguish between direct and indirect benefit; and this is important. There will be minor works where there are direct benefits, which would be quite clear to the river authority, and presumably the charges would reflect that situation. But in the important cases the benefits flowing would be indirect, because these would be major conservation works at the river sources; and one of the major purposes of the Bill and one of the main duties of the Water Resources Board is to see that these major conservation works are carried out. As is pointed out in the White Paper, it would be difficult to apportion these benefits flowing from major conservation works in any other way than that proposed in the Bill.
One of the results of these major conservation works will be indirect benefit generally not only to all future users, but also to present abstracters of water: because, as I pointed out on the Committee stage (and this was a point which the noble Lord, Lord Lindgren admitted) the major conservation works will ensure

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a degree of reliability of supply, which not even the present abstracters enjoy at the moment. Therefore, it seems to the Government much the fairer and better way to charge the costs of all conservation works in the future in accordance with the proposals of this Bill and to apportion them generally throughout all abstracted, present and future.
I might end by saying that one effect of the noble Lord's Amendment, if accepted, would be that the statutory water undertakers would gain a position of advantage vis-à-vis other users of the future. It seems to me that in the future the larger increases in requirements of water will probably come from industry, and perhaps even from spray irrigation. The statutory water undertakings increase of supply obviously depends on increased population. But it might well be that if charges were confined solely to new abstracters a great burden would fall upon industry and agriculture and rather less on statutory water undertakers. While the noble Lord opposite might think that this would be quite fair, speaking from a social point of view I think it would be much preferable to even out these charges over the whole of the users. That is really the case the Government have in answer to the noble Lord's Amendment. We feel we cannot change our minds on this matter, and therefore cannot accept the Amendment.
LORD LINDGREN: My Lords, once again I am grateful to the noble Lord for a detailed reply. I agree right away that the Amendment he moved earlier made it clearer that existing works are included in a variation or a remission of charge. What I am really asking for is not remission, but abolition, and the previous Amendment eases the burden. But I do not think the case for spreading the cost over the whole of the abstracters, existing and future, is sound. The noble Lord, when speaking, quite rightly twitted me that the water undertaker did not necessarily construct works when he drew water, which reminded me that many water undertakers derive a supply from underground. Having the right to abstract water from underground, they made agreements under which they pay an annual charge and in many cases undertake considerable obligations for the free supply of those from whom they
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received permission for the abstraction. Nothing in this Bill removes from the statutory water undertaker any existing obligations into which he has entered with other folk in order to get a supply of water, and it seems rather unfair if he is still to carry the liabilities which he freely entered into in the circumstances of that time, that he should now carry some of the costs of those who come in the future. However, in view of what the noble Lord has said, and particularly having regard to the previous Amendment, which does slightly alleviate the position, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
4.40 p.m.
LORD HASTINGS LORD HASTINGS moved, after Clause 58 to insert the following new clause:
Revision of charging schemes
".—(1) Where a charging scheme prepared by a river authority is for the time being in force—

(a) the river authority, or

(b) any statutory water undertakers who are the holders of a licence under this Act to abstract water from a source of supply in the area of the river authority, or

(c) any persons who are in the aggregate the holders of not less than ten licences for the time being in force under this Act to abstract water from sources of supply in that area,

may apply to the Minister for a revision of that scheme.
(2) Any application under this section shall include the submission of a new charging scheme prepared by the applicants, either by way of variation of, or in substitution for, the charging scheme as in force at the time of the application.
(3) The Minister shall not entertain an application under this Section which is made before the end of the period of five years beginning with the date on which, in the case of the river authority in question, the charging scheme originally prepared by them or (as the case may be) the revision last applied for under this section was approved by the Minister (with or without modifications), unless it appears to the Minister that there are exceptional circumstances which render an earlier revision necessary or expedient.
(4) Subsections (2) to (6) of Section 56, sub section (4) of Section 58, and, where the applicants are the river authority, subsection (1) of Section 57 of this Act shall have effect in relation to a charging scheme prepared under this Section as they have effect in relation to a charging scheme prepared under Section 56 of this Act.
(5) In relation to a charging scheme prepared under this Section by applicants other than

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the river authority, the provisions of Part I of Schedule 6 to this Act shall have effect subject to the following modifications, that is to say:—

(a) any reference to a draft statement shall be construed as a reference to a charging scheme as prepared by the applicants;

(b) except in paragraph 9 of that Schedule, any reference to the river authority, unless the reference is to the river authority area, shall be construed as a reference to the applicants;

(c) in paragraph 9 of that Schedule, the first reference to the river authority shall be construed as a reference to the applicants and the second such reference shall be construed as a reference to the river authority and the applicants;

(d) the river authority shall be included among the bodies on whom, under paragraph 4 of that Schedule, a copy of the notice was required to be served, and sub-paragraphs (c) to (f) of that paragraph shall be omitted.

(6) A charging scheme prepared under this Section which is approved by the Minister (with or without modifications) shall come into operation on such date as may be specified in the scheme as so approved.
(7) Where a charging scheme prepared by a river authority has been revised under this Section, any reference in the last preceding section to a charging scheme prepared by the river authority shall be construed as a reference to the charging scheme relating to licences granted by that authority, in the form in which such a scheme is for the time being in force."
The noble Lord said: My Lords, I am very glad on this occasion to be able to offer something to the noble Lord, Lord Lindgren. As he will recognise, this Amendment varies only slightly from one he moved himself at Committee stage, upon which occasion I gave an undertaking that the Government would introduce an Amendment on the same lines and expand it as necessary, especially in regard to procedural matters. This is that Amendment. The noble Lord will see that we preserve what was in his Amendment in so far as it allows any statutory water undertaker on their own to apply for a revision of the charging scheme. It goes on to allow any other ten licence holders to do the same.
The only other point to which I think I should draw your Lordships' attention is the fact that applications for revision can only be made every five years; and that fits in with the present proposals in the Bill that charging schemes shall not be varied more than every five years. Therefore I think it is necessary to in-
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clude it here, if only to avoid perhaps rather frivolous applications. The rest of the matter is purely procedural, and unless the noble Lord wishes any further explanation, I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 58, insert the said new clause—(Lord Hastings)
LORD LINDGREN: My Lords, on this occasion I have to thank the noble Lord not only for words, but for deeds. It is much more satisfactory to be able to thank him for deeds and express appreciation of them, than for mere words, although his words in the OFFICIAL REPORT may be quoted against him later, and may be useful in that respect. But the provisions which are now provided meet the case which was put during Committee stage, and we thank him for them. They are very comprehensive, and I think it is an improvement of what was before the Committee on a previous occasion.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 61 [Powers to acquire land]:
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, this is not a very major or radical Amendment. Clause 61 gives a river authority power to acquire any land which they require for any purpose in connection with the performance of any of their functions. The purpose of this Amendment is to provide that references in the clause to land should generally include existing interests in land. As a result, a river authority will be able to acquire a subsisting interest or right, for example, a lease, without buying the freehold. We think that that is clearly right. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 50, line 9, at end insert—
("( ) In subsections (1) to (3) of this section references to land shall be construed as including references to any interest in or right over land (except in so far as the proviso to subsection (1) refers to land as being outside the area of a river authority); and, in relation to the acquisition of interests in or rights over land, references to land in the said Act of 1946 as applied by the last preceding subsection shall be construed as references to any such interest or right, or as references to the land in or over which an interest or right is to be acquired, as the context may require").—(Earl Jellicoe.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 62 [Acquisition of new interests or rights over land]:
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, this, again, is a small Amendment which is little more than drafting. In case any of your Lordships are puzzled by the curious Anglo-Norman phraseology in the Amendment, "for a term of years certain", I understand that it means for a fixed term of years. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 50, line 14, at end insert ("and an interest or right may be so acquired either in perpetuity or for a term of years certain or so as to be terminable by notice").—(Earl Jellicoe.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, this, again, is a minor Amendment. Subsection (6) of this clause applies, and should apply, generally. It should not, we feel, be limited to the circumstances of this subsection. Hence, the deletion of (6). I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 50, line 19, leave out ("(6)") and insert ("(5)").—(Earl Jellicoe.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, this Amendment and Amendment No. 66 which follows it are linked, and I suggest we might consider them together. Although they are virtually drafting, perhaps I should say a word in explanation of them. As your Lordships know, subsection (6) of Clause 62 empowers my right honourable friends the Minister of Housing and Local Government and the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, to make regulations for the purposes set out in paragraphs (a) to (e) of the subsection. Under Clause 116 (2) these regulations will be subject to negative resolution. The effect of these two Amendments is to make the wording of these three paragraphs rather more general, while at the same time retaining the sense of the paragraphs which appear in the Bill as at present drafted. This is desirable in order to cover all the things that it may be necessary to do by regulations for the purposes of this clause. I can assure noble Lords that the Amendments do not in any way widen the powers of acquisition conferred by the clause. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 51, line 15, leave out from ("are") to end of line 18 and insert ("to apply for the purposes of any such acquisition").—(Earl Jellicoe.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Amendment moved—
Page 51, line 21, leave out from ("and") to end of line 31 and insert (" (whether compulsory or not) may be made binding upon persons (other than the river authority) who are entitled to interests in the servient land and on the successors in title of such persons;
(c) as to the application, subject to any exceptions and modifications specified in the regulations, of any provisions of the Land Charges Act 1925 or the Land Registration Act 1925 in relation to any such acquisition").—(Earl Jellicoe.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 63 [Orders authorising execution of works]:
LORD HASTINGS LORD HASTINGS moved to leave out Clause 63, and to insert instead:
Compulsory powers for carrying out engineering or building operations
"63.—(1) Where in the performance of their new functions a river authority propose to carry out any engineering or building operations, and it appears to them that for the purpose of carrying out those operations they need compulsory powers, whether consisting of or including powers of compulsory acquisition or not, the authority may apply to the Minister for an order under this section.
(2) The provisions of Schedule 7 to this Act shall have effect with respect to applications and orders under this section:
Provided that, where the powers applied for by an application under this section do not consist of or include any powers of compulsory acquisition, Part II of that Schedule shall not have effect with respect to that application or to any order made thereon, and an order made on that application shall not confer any powers of compulsory acquisition.
(3) Subject to the provisions of that Schedule and of the last preceding subsection, where application is made to the Minister for an order under this section, the Minister may make an order conferring on the river authority such compulsory powers, for the purpose of carrying out the engineering or building operations in question, as the Minister may consider necessary or expedient for that purpose; and (subject to that Schedule and the last preceding subsection) an order under this section may contain such incidental and supplementary provisions, including provisions for amending, adapting or repealing local enactments, as the Minister considers necessary or expedient.
(4) In relation to any order under this section, except in so far as it confers any powers of compulsory acquisition, section 61 of the Land Drainage Act 1930 (which contains provisions for the protection of certain public

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utility and other undertakings) shall have effect as it has effect in relation to any order under that Act.
(5) Nothing in this section or in any order made thereunder shall exempt a river authority from any restriction imposed by Part IV of this Act.
(6) The preceding provisions of this section shall have effect without prejudice to any compulsory powers (including powers of compulsory acquisition) which a river authority can exercise, or can be authorised to exercise, apart from this section.
(7) In this section and in Schedule 7 to this Act 'powers of compulsory acquisition' means any power to acquire compuisorily any land, or an interest in or right over land, including any power to acquire compuisorily such an interest or right by way of the creation of a new interest or right."
The noble Lord said: My Lords, Clause 63, as it stands, makes provision whereby a river authority may be equipped with compulsory powers in connection with the carrying out of works for the purposes of their new functions. But where the authority not only require powers of this kind but also need to acquire land compuisorily, they must proceed concurrently both under Clauses 61 and 63, because the latter clause contains, in subsection (4), an express prohibition on the compulsory acquisition of land. The purpose of this Amendment is not to confer any additional powers on a river authority, but to make it possible for a single order to be made under the new Clause 63 empowering a river authority both to acquire land compuisorily and to exercise compulsory powers for the execution of works. This will put a river authority in a position similiar to that of a statutory water undertaking which, by virtue of Section 23 of the Water Act, 1945, as extended and amended by the Water Act, 1948, may, by order made by the Minister of Housing and Local Government, be authorised both to construct waterworks and to acquire land compuisorily for those purposes. It will make for more convenient administration, and will be in the public interest generally, that such an order be made, rather than that two separate orders be required under Clauses 61 and 63 respectively.
I was given notice of a doubt, or a question, in the mind of my noble friend Lord Colville of Culross, who seemed to think that unusual powers were being given under this clause That is not so, and in fact subsections (6) and (7) (I think
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it was subsection (7) which was worrying my noble friend) are, I am informed, purely procedural provisions. To sum up, the purpose of the new clause is not to confer any new powers beyond those already conferred by the Bill, but to enable a river authority—and this is important—subject to proper safeguards (for which Schedule 7 makes full provision), to be empowered in one order to do all the things which may be necessary in connection with a major work which the river authority require to carry out in the discharge of their new functions. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 51, line 43, leave out Clause 63 and insert the said new clause.—(Lord Hastings.)
4.50 p.m.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: My Lords, I thank my noble friend for anticipating my query on this clause, but I am afraid that I am still not quite clear—probably due to my lack of understanding. Nevertheless, any enactment which endows somebody with compulsory powers of one sort or another requires very close scrutiny by your Lordships. The point that worries me is this. Subsection (1) of the new Clause 63 refers to:
"…compulsory powers, whether consisting of or including powers of compulsory acquisition or not."
Then in subsection (7), the words "powers of compulsory acquisition" are defined so as to include everything that I have ever come across in what experience I have had in the way of compulsory purchase powers, which includes the power to buy a right and even a temporary easement, I think, subsequent to the land's reversion to the owner at the end of the operation of the works.
Notwithstanding that, there are still other powers envisaged, because the wording in subsection (7) is clearly not the only thing that is envisaged by the wording in subsection (1). This, I think, is borne out if your Lordships will look (if I may be forgiven for going ahead) at the additional provisions in Schedule 7, which are to be found in Amendments 129J, 129K, and so on. What has happened here, my Lords, is that the Government have put down a new Part II of Schedule 7 dealing with orders conferring powers of compulsory acquisition, which I think are the same powers as are referred to in the new subsection

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(7) of Clause 63; and there is all the proper detail in the second part of that Schedule to deal with objections and compensation and everything else. But it still leaves Part I of Schedule 7 mostly as printed in the Bill itself, except for the fact that the people on whom notices are being served under paragraph 2 in Part I of Schedule I are now different people who will be served in the case of compulsory acquisition. I think this bears out that there are some different powers involved, and powers different even from this very extensive definition of compulsory acquisition powers in subsection (7).
Moreover, in Part I of Schedule 7 there are no compensation provisions, and if the powers of compulsory acquisition are other than those described in subsection (7) of the new clause then I do not see how they can possibly be covered by any of the definitions of land in the Land Compensation Act, 1961, which normally will provide and include in the compensation provisions the acquisition of any right in land. So clearly, there must be, by the wording both of this new clause and of the revised Schedule, some powers to do compulsorily something that is not acquisition of land or of rights or interests in it, and for which there is no compensation for them. That is what worries me. In the old Clause 63 it is quite clear what the powers are. They are set out in subsection (1) as:
"powers needed for the purpose of constructing, altering, improving, maintaining or removing any buildings or works …"
The new clause contains no such definition. I hope that my noble friend will look at this point again, and be a little more strict in his drafting, so that owners of land who might be affected by these powers know where they are and do not face some vague power which they do not have the means of combating. I hope that my noble friend will forgive me for raising this point. I should like an answer some time.
LORD HASTINGS: My Lords, I would say to my noble friend that I think it is very right and proper that any Member of your Lordships' House should be jealous of the powers given under any legislation we may pass and to make sure that we are not doing anything we should not wish to do. He has put forward a highly complicated legal argument, and
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he must not expect me to answer it on this occasion. There would certainly appear to be good cause for looking again at this clause and we shall do so. If we then find that there is something in what he says, and that the powers need to be limited by the addition of further words to this clause, then we will do what is required. But if there is an explanation, I will write to my noble friend and let him know what it is. If any particular action needs to be taken, he can rest assured that we shall take it.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 64 [Special provisions for protection of water against pollution]:
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, this Amendment is consequential upon Amendment No. 62, Which your Lordships approved a moment or so ago. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 53, line 18, at end insert—
("( ) In this section 'land' includes any interest in or right over land; and section 61 (4) of this Act shall apply for the purposes of the Acquisition of Land (Authorisation Procedure) Act 1946 as that Act has effect in accordance with subsection (1) of this section.").—(Earl Jellicoe.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 65 [General powers in relation to land]:
LORD HASTINGS: My Lords, this is a drafting Amendment, consequential on No. 66A, which we have just been discussing with my noble friend Lord Colville of Culross referring to engineering or building operations. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 53, line 21, leave out from beginning to ("of") in line 24 and insert ("(subject to the provisions of section 67 of this Act) have power to carry out such engineering or building operations as they consider necessary or expedient for the purposes of any").—(Lord Hastings.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 67 [Supplementary provisions to powers in relation to land and works]:
LORD ST. OSWALD: My Lords, this new subsection re-enacts, with slight drafting variations, Section 13 (3) of the River Boards Act, 1948. It provides that

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the powers conferred by Clauses 61 and 66 of the Bill relating to land and works are without prejudice to certain special powers of acquisition conferred by the Salmon and Freshwater Fisheries Act, 1923, or by Section 76 of the Land Drainage Act, 1930. The powers in the Act of 1923 relate to such matters as fishing rights and easements for purposes specified in the Act. Section 76 of the Act of 1930 deals with the acquisition of accretions of land resulting from land drainage works. The new subsection does not empower river authorities to do anything which river boards cannot do at the present time. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 55, line 12, at end insert—
("( ) The preceding provisions of this Part of this Act shall have effect without prejudice to the exercise by river authorities of any power conferred by the Salmon and Freshwater Fisheries Act 1923 or by section 76 of the Land Drainage Act 1930 (which relates to the acquisition of accretions of land resulting from drainage works and land required in connection therewith).").—(Lord St. Oswald.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 68 [Control of discharges into underground strata]:
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, this is another small Amendment. It is designed to close a gap in the control mechanism by making it plain that failure to comply with a condition of consent to discharge effluent or the other nasty things listed in Clause 68 (1) (b) into underground strata by means of a well or borehole is an offence, even if the discharge itself takes place with the consent of the river authority given under Clause 68. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 56, line 27, at end insert ("or (in circumstances not constituting such a contravention) does not comply with a condition subject to which a consent granted under this section for the time being has effect").—(Earl Jellicoe.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 70 [Revocation or variation of consent under s. 68.]:
LORD HASTINGS: My Lords, this is a drafting Amendment to clarify the intention of the clause. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 57, line 21, at end insert ("either on the application of that person or without any such application").—(Lord Hastings.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD HASTINGS: My Lords, this is an Amendment to bring into line a previous Amendment moved at Committee stage regarding Clause 43 to make it possible for the Minister to make a variation with the consent of the person concerned. Without that addition the whole procedural process of appeal would have to be gone through a second time. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 58, line 5, leave out from second ("or") to end of line 7 and insert ("in the case of an appeal against a variation, may, with the consent of the person to whom the consent was granted, determine that it shall be varied in a way different from that specified in the notice under subsection (1) of this section").—(Lord Hastings.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 71 [Borings not requiring licences under Part IV]:
LORD HASTINGS: My Lords, this is a drafting Amendment which makes a minor correction in the Bill by omitting reference to subsection (6) of Clause 39. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 59, line 5, leave out from beginning to ("to") in line 6 and insert ("The decision of the Minister on any appeal under this section shall be final; and section 39 (5) of this Act (with the substitution, for references to the applicant, of references to the appellant) and section 52 (2) of this Act shall apply")—(Lord Hastings.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD SINCLAIR OF CLEEVE LORD SINCLAIR OF CLEEVE moved, after Clause 71, to insert the following new clause
Further provision as to water discharged from mines
".—(1) In this section "mine" has the meaning assigned to it by section 180 of the Mines and Quarries Act, 1954.
(2) Where, after the end of the initial period, a person proposes to cease to make a discharge to which this section applies in a river authority area or to alter substantially the volume or rate of flow of such a discharge (whether as a result of a decision to abandon or discontinue the working of a mine or any part thereof or otherwise) he shall, not less than twelve months (or such less period as the river authority may agree to) before he ceases to

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make the discharge or alters substantially the volume or rate of flow thereof, give to the river authority a notice of his intention in the prescribed form:
Provided that this subsection shall not apply where a person proposes to cease to make a discharge or to alter the volume or rate of flow thereof temporarily for the purpose of renewing, repairing or maintaining works, machinery or apparatus used in connection with the making of the discharge.
(3) This section applies to any discharge to a watercourse of water raised or drained from any underground part of a mine, not being a temporary discharge.
(4) Any person who contravenes subsection (2) of this section shall be guilty of an offence and shall be liable, on conviction on indictment or on summary conviction, to a fine:
Provided that an offence under this section shall not be punishable on summary conviction by a fine exceeding one hundred pounds."
The noble Lord said: My Lords, the noble Viscount, Lord Ridley, in whose name this Amendment is put down, very much regrets his inability to be here and has asked me to convey his regrets to your Lordships and, with your Lordships' permission, to move it for him. He is in fact laid up with influenza.
There are certain companies engaged in industry, including some of the steel companies, who rely for part of their industrial supplies on water discharged from mines into water courses. While mine waters are water resources within the meaning of Clause 2 of the Bill, and as such will, for example, have to be taken into account by river authorities in carrying out surveys under Clause 14, abstractions of mine water by virtue of Clause 24 (3) will not have to be licensed under Part IV of the Bill. Mine water is normally discharged into a water course and in certain cases it constitutes virtually the whole flow of that water course. A company abstracting water for industrial purposes from that water course at a point downstream would therefore be vitally concerned to see that this discharge was not diminished or stopped altogether without due notice being given.
A policy decision to close an uneconomic mine could result in such a discharge being stopped entirely, and in that event any industrial undertaking which was dependent upon that source of supply might grind to a halt unless there were sufficient time to arrange for an alternative source to be made available. It is not, of course, suggested that
1104
an uneconomic mine should be kept open purely in order that water should continue to be pumped from it, but it is submitted that, for example, where a mine is to be closed and as a result a source of supply for industry will cease, the river authority concerned should be given sufficient notice to enable an alternative source of supply to be made available.
While it may be true to say that a company relying upon such supplies must recognise the risk attached to the considerations of that particular source, the general controls to be imposed in this Bill in future might put a company in such a position that it would be dependent upon the remedial action that the river board could take. Moreover, it is submitted that, as a matter of principle, this is the sort of situation with which a river authority ought to have power to deal in the exercise of their new functions, and that neither the river authority nor the company can deal with it effectively unless there is due notice. Clause 71 of the Bill at it stands does not really deal with the points covered in this new Amendment. Clause 71 refers to new works constructed after the initial period, and while it might be reasonable for the river authority to include in any conservation notices under subsection (3) of that clause a condition regarding the notice to be given if it were proposed to discontinue a particular abstraction, there is no obligation on the river authority to do that. Moreover, as I have already indicated, Clause 71 as it stands refers to abstractions as a result of works constructed after the initial period.
It is, I believe, the fact that, in so far as National Coal Board collieries are concerned, there is a standing arrangement whereby a colliery gives due notice of any substantial diminution or cessation of discharge of water from the mine, but that does not cover all cases. There are mines other than those of the National Coal Board. In so far as the arrangement I have referred to already works, there surely can be no objection to a provision which makes that practice a statutory obligation. In view of the arguments I have endeavoured to advance, I hope very much that the Government will see their way to accept this Amendment, which

1105
would seem to be not only reasonable but necessary. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 71, insert the said new clause.—(Lord Sinclair of Cleeve)
LORD HASTINGS: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Sinclair of Cleeve, has put this predicament of certain industries very clearly, and it is a case with which we certainly sympathise. It is not at all an easy matter to deal with, and the clause as drafted does in fact present some practical difficulties which I will explain. The Government could not accept the clause without further study to make quite sure that it would have no adverse effects upon the position of river authorities. We certainly do not think it would be fair to expect a river authority to become responsible for maintaining a discharge of underground water of this kind after the reason for making it had ceased to apply; in other words, after the mine had closed. The noble Lord recognised that a mine could hardly be expected to go on pumping water after it had no use for it. We find it difficult to believe it should become an obligation upon the river authority to do anything like that.
If as a result of any notice the river authority became responsible for replacing a supply which had been provided by way of this discharge, complications might arise under Clause 48 (3). That deals with the legal liabilities of river authorities and the action that can be taken against them; there is also a reference in that clause to river authorities being able to make a defence for emergency, drought, act of God and so on, and unforeseen act or event. This would not be an "unforeseen act or event" because they would have twelve months' notice of it, and there is a legal complication in that respect over what the responsibilities and liabilities of the river authority should be in this particular case.
Apart from that, it is very difficult, I am told, to give twelve months' notice in all cases because one cannot always foresee the closure of a mine as far ahead as that, and, in any case, to make an announcement of it before all the various arrangements between the Coal Board and its employees had been
1106
made would be obviously undesirable, if not impossible. The water is discharged from the mine only because it must be discharged if minerals are to continue to be won. If for any natural reason a lesser quantity can be discharged without detriment to the working of the mine, obviously the mine operator must be allowed to take full advantage of that circumstance. Our advice is that quite substantial variations of the necessary discharge may occur with little warning. Presumably that is a risk to which the people using these discharges are already subjected. Therefore the Government take the view that formal arrangements on the lines of this clause would be too burdensome.
On the other hand, we think that, as in the past, administrative arrangements which have mostly been made between the National Coal Board and the users of these discharges have been found to work quite well and have ensured that information about the cessation or alteration of discharges was received in good time by the public authorities who needed it. The Minister is certainly prepared to consider adapting and extending these administrative arrangements to meet the circumstances outlined by the noble Lord. In our view, it would be better to tackle the problem in this way, and we think it is probably the best answer to how we can keep the river authority informed, rather than by making it a statutory obligation as the noble Lord has suggested. It is a matter which is receiving further study, but that is the gist of our thinking at the present stage, and I hope the noble Lord will be satisfied. As I say, we shall certainly take this into consideration in any administrative arrangements that are to be made by the Minister, and if we come to any further conclusions, then we shall come again to Parliament and say so.
LORD BURDEN: My Lords, before the noble Lord replies, may I say a word or two? This is a problem with which the river boards, or the new river boards in certain areas, will be intimately concerned, and the Association of River Authorities have already made a preliminary study of the Amendment on the Marshalled List. In those circumstances, I am sure that the Minister or Department concerned will be glad to have the observations of the Association

1107
which I believe, on the whole, are sympathetic to the Amendment on the Marshalled List.
LORD SINCLAIR OF CLEEVE: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Burden, for the support that he indicates may be forthcoming from the river boards on this Amendment, and I am grateful to the noble Lord for his reply. I am not sure that I can say that those on whose behalf I am moving this Amendment will be altogether satisfied with it. I would, however, say straight away that, so far as the period of notice is concerned, although in the Amendment we say "not less than 12 months," I am sure that is a matter that could be discussed. I do not think we need to be at all rigid about that period of notice. What we want is reasonable, practical notice of any substantial diminution or of complete cessation.
I feel, however, with regard to the position of the river authorities in this matter, that although we would not suggest that the river authorities must assume the responsibility for the continuance of this supply or even the equivalent, they have a duty to see that the needs of their area are, as far as possible, satisfied. Within that general obligation, I think it quite reasonable to insist that in the event of certain substantial diminutions in, or stoppages of, such supplies, due notice should be given to the river authorities and the actual abstracters who are immediately concerned. That would help to safeguard the position. Perhaps the noble Lord would be good enough to include that last point in his further consideration of the matter.
LORD HASTINGS: Yes, I will do that.
LORD SINCLAIR OF CLEEVE: On that understanding, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 72 [Byelaws for protection of water resources]:
5.15 p.m.
LORD ST. OSWALD: My Lords, this is another in the series of Government Amendments designed to incorporate references to harbour authorities and conservancy authorities in those clauses
1108
where, at present, only navigation authorities are cited. The earlier clauses so amended were Clause 19 (4) (c), Clause 28 (1) (b) and Clause 42 (2). I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 60, line 2, at end insert ("harbour authority or conservancy authority").—(Lord St. Oswald.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD ST. OSWALD: My Lords, this is the first of a group of Government Amendments (the others are the new clause after Clause 106 and in Schedules 2 and 9) which it is necessary to make in the provisions relating to by-laws, so as to deal with by-laws relating to fisheries and prevention of pollution of streams. All the Amendments are in the nature of machinery provisions and do not raise new points of principle. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 60, line 19, leave out subsection (7) and insert—
("(7) No byelaw made by virtue of subsection (3) of this section, or by virtue of section 18 of the Water Act 1945 as applied by subsection (1) of this section, shall conflict or interfere with the operation of any byelaw made by a navigation authority, harbour authority or conservancy authority.").—(Lord St. Oswald.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 75 [Future transfers of functions or property of other authorities and undertakings]:
LORD HASTINGS: My Lords, this is a drafting Amendment opening the way for the Schedule to be added to the Bill after Schedule 8. The provision made by the deleted subsection is re-enacted in paragraph 1 of the new Schedule. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 63, line 7, leave out subsection (3) and insert—
("(3) The provisions of Schedule (Orders transferring functions or property of other authorities and undertakings) to this Act shall have effect with respect to applications and orders under this section.").—(Lord Hastings.)
LORD LINDGREN: My Lords, perhaps we could have our discussion at this stage; it will save time later when we come to the Schedule. We are now dealing with Amendment No. 77. The Amendment put down, together with that in regard to the Schedule, more than meets

1109
the point raised in Committee. I think it effects a considerable improvement on the Bill as it stands. It is certainly an improvement on the Amendments which I moved on the Committee stage. The Amendment, together with that in the Schedule, will go a long way to satisfying the statutory water undertakers. I am grateful to the noble Lord.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 76 [Water resources accounts of river authorities]:
LORD HASTINGS: My Lords, this is a drafting and correcting Amendment. It brings in Clause 73 (3) as well. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 64, line 10, leave out ("(2)").—(Lord Hastings.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD HASTINGS: My Lords, this is a drafting Amendment. References to harbour authorities and conservancy authorities are added, as they have been in previous Amendments.
Amendment moved—
Page 64, line 22, after first ("authority") insert ("harbour authority or conservancy authority").—(Lord Hastings.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD HASTINGS: My Lords, I beg to move this Amendment formally.
Amendment moved—
Page 64, line 26, at end insert—
("(e) any contributions received by the authority under section (Contributions between river authorites and certain other authorities) of this Act").—(Lord Hastings.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD HASTINGS, My Lords, I beg to move this Amendment formally.
Amendment moved—
Page 64, line 35, after ("authority") insert ("harbour authority or conservancy authority").—(Lord Hastings.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD HASTINGS: My Lords, this Amendment is drafting. I am afraid I let No. 78B slip by formally, but actually it belongs with 78D. Both Amendments are linked with the proposed new clause after Clause 82. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 64, line 44, at end insert ("and
(c) any contributions paid by the authority under section (Contributions between river authorities and certain other authorities) of this Act").—(Lord Hastings.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
5.20 p.m.
EARL JELLICOE EARL JELLICOE moved, after Clause 78 to insert the following new clause
Investment of moneys in reserve and replacement funds
".—(1) Where a river authority maintain a reserve fund, any moneys for the time being comprised in that fund shall, pending the application thereof in accordance with Section 77 (4) of this Act, be invested in accordance with the following provisions of this Section.
(2) Sections 1, 2, 5, 6, 12 and 13 of the Trustee Investments Act 1961 (which relate to the investment powers of trustees) shall have effect in relation to any such moneys, and in relation to any investments or other property for the time being representing any such moneys, as if they constituted a trust fund and the river authority were the trustees of that trust fund; and section 7 (2) of that Act (which relates to certain local and other authorities) shall have effect in relation to Sections 1, 2, 5 and 6 of that Act as applied by this subsection as it has effect in relation to those Sections as applied by Section 7(1) of that Act.
(3) River authorities shall be included among the authorities to which Section 11 of that Act applies (which relates to the operation of collective investment schemes).
(4) Any income arising from any such moneys, investments or property as are mentioned in subsection (2) of this Section shall be treated as revenue available generally for defraying any expenses of the river authority which do not fall to be debited to their water resources account or paid out of the reserve fund or any replacement fund maintained by them.
(5) Where any income is treated as mentioned in the last preceding subsection, there shall be paid into the reserve fund, from revenue available as mentioned in that subsection, a sum equal to the amount of that income:
Provided that if the payment of a sum under this subsection would contravene any restriction imposed by Section 77 (3) of this Act, then, so far as may be necessary for avoiding any such contravention, the sum so payable shall be reduced, or, as the case may require, shall not be paid.
(6) The provisions of this Section shall have effect in relation to a replacement fund maintained by a river authority as they have effect in relation to a reserve fund so maintained, with the substitution, for the reference to Section 77 (4), of the reference to Section 78 (2), and for the reference to Section 77 (3), of a reference to Section 78 (4) of this Act."
The noble Earl said: My Lords, this new clause provides for the investment

1111
of moneys in reserve and replacement funds of river authorities. To those of your Lordships who are experts in these matters the new clause will, I think, be quite straightforward and self-explanatory. Nevertheless, I should like to say just a word about subsection (3). This will make it possible for river authorities to invest in the Local Authority Mutual Investment Trust by providing that they are to be among the authorities to which Section 11 of the Act of 1961 applies. This was the object of an Amendment which the noble Lord, Lord Lindgren, moved in Committee. Your Lordships will remember that he withdrew his Amendment after I had undertaken that we would consult the local authority associations on this point. We have now done so. I think it will be fair to say that the associations have no objection to the provision. Indeed, as the noble Lord, Lord Lindgren, with his usual powers of prophecy, suggested in Committee, it would perhaps be fairer to say that they would welcome it. My Lords, I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 78 insert the said new clause.—(Earl Jellicoe.)
LORD LINDGREN: My Lords, again I rise to express appreciation for an undertaking which has been fully and faithfully kept.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 79 [Precepts by river authorities]:
LORD HASTINGS: My Lords, this is a drafting Amendment to correct an omission. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 66, line 39, at end insert ("for the relevant year").—(Lord Hastings.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
EARL JELLICOE EARL JELLICOE moved, after Clause 82 to insert the following new clause:
Contributions between river authorities and certain other authorities
".—(1) Where, on the application of a navigation authority, harbour authority or conservancy authority, it appears to a river authority that any works constructed or maintained by the applicants (whether before or after the passing of this Act) have made, or will make, a beneficial contribution towards the fulfilment of the purposes of the river authority's new functions, the river authority shall contribute to the applicant's such sums, on such terms and con-
1112
ditions, as they and the applicants may agree to be appropriate towards the expenditure incurred or to be incurred by the applicants in constructing or maintaining those works.
(2) Where, on the application of a river authority, it appears to a navigation authority, harbour authority or conservancy authority that any works constructed or maintained by a river authority in the performance of their new functions have made, or will make, a beneficial contribution towards the performance of the functions of the authority to whom the application is made, that authority shall contribute to the river authority such sums, on such terms and conditions, as they and the river authority may agree to be appropriate towards the expenditure incurred or to be incurred by the river authority in constructing or maintaining those works.
(3) If, on any application under this section, the authority to whom the application is made (in this subsection referred to as "the other authority concerned") refuse to make a contribution or the applicants and the other authority concerned are unable to agree as to the sums to be contributed or the terms and conditions on which they are to be contributed,—

(a) the applicants or the other authority concerned may refer the matter in dispute to the Minister and the Minister of Transport, and

(b) those Ministers may either determine that matter themselves or may refer it for determination to an arbitrator appointed by them for the purpose;

and any decision of those Ministers or of an arbitrator under paragraph (b) of this subsection shall be final, and the other authority concerned shall contribute in accordance with the decision as if the sums, or the terms and conditions, determined under that paragraph had been agreed to be appropriate as mentioned in subsection (1) or subsection (2) of this section, as the case may be.
(4) Any expenditure incurred by a navigation authority, harbour authority or conservancy authority in paying any contribution under this section shall be defrayed in the like manner as any corresponding expenditure of that authority; and the authority shall have the like powers for the purpose of raising money required for paying any such contribution as they would have for the purpose of raising money required for defraying any such corresponding expenditure.
(5) In the last preceding subsection any reference to corresponding expenditure of a navigation authority, harbour authority or conservancy authority is a reference to expenditure incurred by the authority in performing the functions in respect of which it is claimed by the applicants that the works in question have made, or will make, a beneficial contribution as mentioned in subsection (2) of this section."
The noble Earl said: My Lords, this new clause may look rather formidable, but I can assure noble Lords that it is, in essence, simple and straightforward. Its genesis is to be found in paragraph 38 of the White Paper. That paragraph

1113
included the statement that—and I quote:
"The Government consider that there should be financial recognition of benefits to conservation from works carried out by navigation authorities."
This unexceptionable principle is embodied in the new clause. In the interests of fair play, it also makes provision for the converse case—namely, when navigation benefits from works carried out by river authorities in discharging their new conservation functions. I commend the new clause to the House as a simple and just provision regulating one aspect of the functions of two sorts of statutory bodies concerned with inland waters.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 82 insert the said new clause.—(Earl Jellicoe.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 83 [Borrowing powers]:
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, this is a minor Amendment. Clause 83 (2) (a) provides that a river authority may borrow money for, among other things, the acquisition of land. This addition to paragraph (a) will extend this particular borrowing power to the acquisition of any interest in, or right over, land which an authority may wish to obtain. It is possible, for example, that the cost of acquiring a new wayleave for a pipe-line may be sufficient to justify borrowing money on mortgage. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 69, line 6, at end insert ("or of any interest in or right over land").—(Earl Jellicoe.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, this is another small Amendment. It represents no change in our intent but is merely designed to spell out that intent rather more clearly. Clause 83 (2) (d) authorises a river authority to borrow money on mortgage for the purpose of repaying a loan. This Amendment makes clear that this applies to money borrowed by the authority's predecessors for the purposes of the transferred functions and that the predecessors need not necessarily be the immediate predecessors of the authority. Indeed, under it not only the overdrafts
1114
of the fathers but also those of the grandfathers may be visited on the sons. This principle may seem rather harsh, but I think it is unexceptionable when we realise that the original borrowing could have been by a catchment board from whom the functions were transferred to a river board from whom, in turn, they were transferred to a river authority. I beg to move.
Amendment moved——
Page 69, line 13, leave out from ("or") to end of line 15 and insert ("borrowed by a river board or other body for the purposes of functions which, by or under this Act, are transferred (whether from that body or another body) to the river authority").—(Earl Jellicoe.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 85 [General provisions for transfer of assets and liabilities]:
LORD HASTINGS: My Lords, at present there is some overlapping between Clauses 85 and Schedule 2. This Amendment and the linked Amendment in the Schedule correct it. The Amendment itself is little more than drafting. My Lords, I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 71, line 36, after ("schemes") insert ("regulations, awards").—(Lord Hastings.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD HASTINGS: My Lords, this Amendment is necessary to repair an omission from Clause 85, which contains provisions for the transfer of river authorities' assets and liabilities to river boards. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 72, line 5, at end insert—
("( ) Any legal proceedings or applications to any other authority to which the board is a party and which are pending on the second appointed day may be continued on and after that day as if the authority instead of the board had been a party thereto.").—(Lord Hastings.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD HASTINGS: My Lords, upon further consideration it has been found that this subsection is inapplicable in the context of river boards; therefore it is deleted. My Lords, I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 72, line 6, leave out subsection (7).—(Lord Hastings.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD HASTINGS: My Lords, this is little more than drafting. Its purpose is to secure that any antecedent documents are read as if they had been amended to refer to the river board concerned, thereby ensuring that they are caught by subsection (4) of Clause 85, which provides for them to be read as referring to the river authority which supersedes the river board concerned. My Lords, I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 72 line 11, at end insert—
("( ) For the purposes of this section any agreement or other document in relation to which the provisions of subsection (2) or subsection (3) of section 25 of the River Boards Act 1948 had effect (which subsections contained provisions corresponding to subsections (3) to (5) of this section) shall be treated as having been amended by that section so as to have effect in accordance with those provisions.").—(Lord Hastings.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 87 [Pension rights]:
LORD HASTINGS: My Lords, this is purely drafting. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 72, line 34, after ("shall") insert ("subject to the next following subsection").—(Lord Hastings.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 88 [Supplementary provisions as to pension rights]:
EARL JELLICOE EARL JELLICOE moved to insert after subsection (2):
"( ) Without prejudice to the generality of the last preceding subsection, where immediately before the second appointed day it was the prevailing practice of the board to exercise beneficially (that is to say, so as to secure the payment of pensions or of increased pensions) any discretionary power exercisable by them by virtue of any such statutory provision as is mentioned in subsection (3) of the last preceding section, it shall, in relation to officers or servants to whom the said subsection (3) applies, be the duty of the authority to exercise that power (or any corresponding power under the statutory provisions relating to pensions for the time being in force) in a way which is not less beneficial than that practice; and section 35 of the Act of 1937 shall apply to any question arising under this subsection."
The noble Earl said: My Lords, the purpose of this Amendment is to make crystal clear the effect of the Bill on the exercise by river authorities of various discretionary powers under the local government superannuation scheme where it has been the prevailing practice of the
1116
river boards to exercise such discretion. The sort of discretionary powers I have in mind are the granting of a gratuity under Section 18 of the Local Government Superannuation Act, 1953. The new subsection will oblige a river authority to treat an employee transferred from a river board no less generously than he would have been treated by the board immediately before such a transfer. The river authority are, of course, not thereby precluded from affording their employees more generous treatment if they see fit. Moreover, nothing in the new subsection cuts across what is said in Clause 88 (2) about "customary obligations". Under that subsection there is a right of appeal to my right honourable friend the Minister of Housing and Local Government under Section 35 of the Local Government Superannuation Act, 1937, about an employee's rights. The new subsection (3) similarly provides for questions arising under the subsection to be determined by the Minister under Section 35 of the Act of 1937. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 74, line 6, at end insert the said subsection.—(Earl Jellicoe.)
LORD BURDEN: My Lords, on behalf of the staff concerned may I say just one word of appreciation for this Amendment and for what it implies?
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, as you may surmise, this is a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 74, line 14, after ("with") insert ("and to the extent specified in").—(Earl Jellicoe)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
EARL JELLICOE EARL JELLICOE moved, after subsection (5), to insert:
"( ) Without prejudice to the last preceding subsection, where for the purposes of any such statutory provision as is mentioned in subsection (3) of the last preceding section the board (if this Act had not been passed) would at any time on or after the second appointed day have been the employing authority in relation to—

(a) a person who before that day died while in the employment of the board, or otherwise ceased to be employed by the board, or

(b) the widow or any other dependant of such a person,

the authority shall be treated as being at that time the employing authority for those purposes in relation to that person, or to that

1117
person's widow or other dependant, as the case may be."
The noble Earl said: My Lords, the purpose of this Amendment is to secure that in relation to a former employee of a river board, or to his widow or dependant, the successor river authority are to be entitled to exercise any functions as "employing authority" which the river board they succeeded could have exercised. In particular, the Amendment will empower a river authority to review from time to time the amount of any injury allowance granted to a former employee or his widow or dependant by the river board under Regulation 7 of the Local Government Superannuation (Benefits) Regulations, 1954. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 74, line 40, at end insert the said subsection.—(Earl Jellicoe.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 89 [Provisions where river authority area comprises two river board areas]:
LORD HASTINGS: My Lords, this Amendment is little more than drafting. It ensures that any reference in an agreement or document to the area of one of the two river boards is still to be read as a reference to that area after the amalgamation of areas has taken place and a single river authority has superseded the two river boards. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 75, line 12, at end insert—
("(2) Section 85 of this Act, as applied by the preceding subsection, shall not affect the construction of any reference in an agreement or other document to the area of either of the boards.").—(Lord Hastings.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 90 [Compensation of officers and servants]:
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, this Amendment is linked with Amendment No. 100, for which it paves the way by deleting Clause 90. That clause is substantially re-enacted by Amendment No. 100. That Amendment, however, extends the compensation provisions of this Bill in certain respects. It is not appropriate, in our view, to retain the clause in its extended form in this Part of the Bill, Part IX, since in its amended form
1118
the clause will also refer to provisions of Parts II and VII of the Bill. My Lords, I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Leave out Clause 90.—(Earl Jellicoe)
LORD BURDEN: My Lords, the noble Earl will remember that on the Committee stage I raised the point about whether the clause was wide enough in some of its provisions. I am glad to see that it has been looked at afresh, and I am authorised on behalf of the National and Local Government Officers' Association to say that this Amendment is completely satisfactory, and to express the appreciation of that body to the Minister for the Amendments.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 92 [Saving for acts of river boards]:
LORD HASTINGS: My Lords, the next three Amendments can be taken together. Their purpose is to fill a small gap in the clause, and to add those things which ought not to be invalidated by reason of a transfer of the functions of a river board, or upon the dissolution of a river board. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 77, line 40, after ("approval") insert ("consent, resolution, rate, precept, charge").—(Lord Hastings.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD HASTINGS: My Lords, I beg to move this Amendment formally.
Amendment moved—
Page 78, line 1, leave out ("or given") and insert ("given, passed, issued or raised").—(Lord Hastings.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD HASTINGS: My Lords, I beg to move this Amendment formally.
Amendment moved—
Page 78, line 5, after ("given") insert ("passed, issued, raised").—(Lord Hastings.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD HASTINGS: My Lords, this is a pure drafting point. It is thought that the new subsection (2) is an improvement on the existing one. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 78, line 6, leave out subsection (2) and insert—
("(2) Subject and without prejudice to the preceding provisions of this Part of this Act, and to the provisions (where applicable) of Schedule 2 to this Act, every such matter as is mentioned in the preceding subsection, in so far as it could have been effected by the river authority to whom the functions of the river board are transferred by section 5 of this Act, shall have effect, as from the second appointed day, as if it had been effected by that river authority.").—(Lord Hastings.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
5.37 p.m.
LORD HASTINGS LORD HASTINGS moved, after Clause 93 to insert the following new clause:
Protection of duty of statutory water undertakers to supply water for domestic purposes
".—(1) In the performance of their functions under subsections (1) and (2) of section 14 of this Act, a river authority shall have particular regard to the duty of any relevant statutory water undertakers to provide a supply of water for domestic purposes.
(2) In the preceding subsection 'relevant statutory water undertakers' means any statutory water undertakers who fulfil any one or more of the following conditions, that is to say

(a) that any part of the area of the river authority falls within their limits of supply:

(b) that they are the holders of a licence under this Act to abstract water from a source of supply in that area;

(c) that they have made an application to the river authority for such a licence or have given notice to the river authority of their intention to make such an application.

(3) In dealing with any application or appeal by statutory water undertakers under Part IV of this Act, and in formulating, proceeding with or considering any proposals for the variation or revocation of a licence under this Act of which statutory water undertakers are the holders, a river authority or the Minister, as the case may be, shall have particular regard to the duty of those undertakers to provide a supply of water for domestic purposes.
(4) In this section 'duty' means a duty imposed by or under an enactment, and 'a supply of water for domestic purposes' and 'limits of supply' have the same meanings as in Schedule 3 to the Water Act 1945."
The noble Lord said: My Lords, this new clause has been put down as a result of the long discussions we had during the Committee stage, and as a result of my firm undertaking that the position of the statutory water undertakers would be specifically safeguarded in the Bill. This, of course, is the Amendment which the noble Lord, Lord Lindgren, and my
1120
noble friend Lord Sinclair of Cleeve have presumably been waiting for throughout this Report stage, as many other Amendments they have moved before really hang upon it. The noble Lord opposite and my noble friend behind me have some Amendments down to this Amendment, and I shall reserve my reply upon them. But if I may at this stage, I should like to outline the Government approach to this matter.
The clause first of all requires a river authority, in carrying out their duties under subsections (1) and (2) of Clause 14 (that is to say, making a survey of demand, preparing an estimate of future demand and formulating proposals for action, and periodically reviewing all these things), to have particular regard to the duty of the relevant statutory water undertakers to provide a supply of water for domestic purposes. In subsection (2) the relevant statutory water undertakers are defined, and I would direct your Lordships' attention to those definitions. In subsection (2) (a) the first relevant statutory water undertaker is to be one whose supply falls within the area of the river authority; that is to say, any statutory water undertaker who supplies the population lying inside a certain river authority, although the undertaker is itself outside that area, is included in this clause.
For example, the City of Birmingham supplies a considerable area in the Trent River Authority, but it draws its water from quite a different authority, in the valleys of the Wye and the Severn. But in spite of that, when considering the forward demand for water, the Trent River Authority will have to consult with the City of Birmingham to see what are the likely future requirements for the supply of those people who live within the Trent River Authority area. It will probably happen that Birmingham will be quite happy and will continue to draw its water from the Wye and the Severn. But there is the necessity for consultation and for liaison between the two river authorities in this case, to make quite sure that in shaping policy for the future the Trent River Authority will bear in mind the future requirements of the people supplied from Birmingham.
That can now be read in conjunction with subsection (2) (c), because there the definition of "relevant statutory water

1121
undertakers" is extended to include those who have
"made an application to the river authority for such a licence or have given notice to the river authority of their intention to make such an application."
As a result of subsection (2) (a), in the case of Birmingham it might result from these consultations that Birmingham would at some future time wish to make such an application, and they would warn the authority of their intention. On the other hand, subsection (2) (c) would apply immediately to the case of Manchester, because they would be drawing their water from a source of supply in a different river authority area—namely, the Cumberland area. Therefore, the definition of a statutory water undertaker is a very important part of this clause; and, of course, in subsection (2) (b), there is the normal case of
"…the holders of a licence under this Act to abstract water from a source of supply in that"
particular river authority area.
I think it should be quite clear from this that we are trying to make this clause as comprehensive as possible, and to make quite sure that, in the planning of water resources, no possible requirement of any statutory water undertaker, whether it be in that particular area or outside it, is overlooked. As I said, subsection (2) (c), reflects the importance of forward planning in water conservation matters, which is what we are particularly aiming at, and we feel that water undertakers should and will make river authorities aware at a very early stage of their future needs, and should be able to settle in principle how these are to be met. The river authority, for its part, in discharging its duties under Clause 14, subsections (1) and (2), should take full account of what it knows about the future needs of statutory undertakers when authorising licences for abstraction within its area as a result of this new clause, subsections (1) and (2).
To turn now to subsection (3), this, of course, deals with the normal day-to-day exercise of the powers of licensing abstraction. It requires a river authority and the Minister, in dealing with applications or appeals by statutory water undertakers, or with proposals for varying or revoking licences held by them, similarly
1122
to have particular regard to the duty of the water undertakers in respect of the supply of water for domestic purposes. The statutory water undertakers have a right to expect that the river authorities will be particularly sensitive to their needs, and that they will take particular care to see that their demands are provided for. On the other hand, we feel that they do not have a claim on any and every occasion to the sources of that choice—and this came out when we were discussing the Amendment on Tuesday. The statutory water undertakers should also bear in mind, I think, that the Bill provides a right of appeal to the Minister of Housing, who is responsible for the well-being of the water supply industry just as he is for the business of water conservation.
Therefore, my Lords, we feel that we have really gone a very long way to meet the objections of the statutory water undertakings so carefully put by the noble Lord, Lord Lindgren, and the noble Lord, Lord Sinclair of Cleeve, in past Amendments, and we feel that we have lived up to our undertaking to put something into this Bill which would safeguard their position in a very full manner. Therefore, in spite of the Amendments put down by the noble Lords, I hope that they will be able to agree to the Government Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 93, insert the said new clause.—(Lord Hastings.)
LORD LINDGREN LORD LINDGREN moved, as an Amendment to the Amendment, in subsection (1), to leave out "subsections (1) and (2) of Section 14 of". The noble Lord said: My Lords, I would again thank the noble Lord, Lord Hastings, for so fully setting out the Government's approach to the problem, and I will give them credit for having made a genuine attempt to deal with the problem. But we do not think that they have gone anywhere near far enough in so far as the Amendment that they have set down is concerned, because of the restrictive nature of the clause. The new clause, as the noble Lord has quite rightly said, requires a river authority when dealing with the licensing of statutory water undertakers to have particular regard to the duty of their providing a supply of

1123
water for domestic purposes in the performance of their functions under subsections (1) and (2) of Section 14 of this Bill.
The proposed clause is restrictive because it implies that, in the performance of other functions under the Bill, and in particular when dealing with applications for licences made by abstracters other than the statutory water undertakers, the river authority is not to have particular regard to the statutory duties of the water undertaker to afford a supply for domestic purposes. I would suggest that it is restrictive, too, because it is limited to give a supply for domestic purposes, and does not take into account supplies for public purposes which may be, and so often are in certain circumstances, equally important or more important. The first Amendment to subsection (1) of the Government's new clause is intended to remove one of these restrictions, and to ensure that the river authority has particular regard to these duties of the statutory water undertaking when the river authority is performing any function under the Bill. In the outline which the noble Lord has just given of the Government's approach to the problem, that seemed far from clear.
The second Amendment to subsection (1) of the Government's new clause brings the supply of water for public services into consideration. The supply of water for public services is referred to in Part VIII of the Third Schedule of the Water Act, 1945, and it includes the supply of water for such vital purposes as fire fighting, the cleansing of sewers and drains, the cleansing of highways, public pumps, public baths and wash-houses—all very vital public health functions which are the duty of the statutory water undertaker. I agree that the third Amendment is not necessary if the Government are going to accept the Amendments to subsection (1), but, from the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Hastings, I did not gather that he was over-anxious to accept the first two Amendments, and, therefore, perhaps, as they are on the Order Paper, I might deal as well with them now and so save dealing with them later.
Of course, Amendment No. 97C would not be necessary if, as I mentioned, the other Amendments to subsection (1) are accepted, because all the functions of a river authority will be referred to in
1124
subsection (1) and it is appreciated that the deletion of Subsection (3) means the omission of reference to the Minister. It is thought it is not necessary because the Minister's duties in respect of public water supplies are already covered by the Water Act of 1945. As the noble Lord, Lord Hastings, said, in putting forward the point of view for the Government Amendment, there is no doubt that any Minister responsible for public water supply will not fail to have particular regard to the duties of the statutory water undertaker. I hope that on this occasion we can come a little nearer to agreement than on Clause 29 and our subsequent discussions. I beg to move.
Amendment to Amendment moved—
In subsection (I) leave out ("subsections (1) and (2) of section 14 of").—(Lord Lindgren.)
LORD SINCLAIR OF CLEEVE: My Lords, I am very conscious of the fact that at first sight it might appear that the noble Lord, Lord Lindgren, and I were presuming to paint the lily of the Government Amendment, and, indeed, failing in the process to recognise the great trouble that has been taken (as the noble Lord Lord Hastings, said) to give effect to this from the point of view of the statutory water undertaker—a very important point. I would assure the noble Lord that we are indeed grateful for the effort he has made, and we are not merely "painting the lily".
There are two points of substance in Amendment 97A and Amendment 97B. The noble Lord, Lord Lindgren, has made it clear, I hope, that as Amendment No. 97 stands, it could have a restrictive effect which I am sure is contrary to the intention of the Department. Further, I think it would be, if I may say so, a necessary improvement to add the words "and public" to the word "domestic" because I understand that the word "domestic" does not include the public supplies required for health purposes, fire-fighting and so forth, to which the noble Lord, Lord Lindgren, referred. The noble Lord, Lord Hastings, said it was the intention and desire of his Department to endeavour to see that this recognition of the duty imposed on the statutory water undertakers by reason of their statutory obligations should be duly considered. Indeed, as they say in this Amendment, "particular

1125
regard" should be paid to them. He said it was their endeavour to make that particular regard as comprehensive as possible. I submit that this Amendment to the Amendment does just that. I beg to support it.
5.55 p.m.
LORD HASTINGS: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Lindgren, said that the Government Amendment was of a restrictive nature, and he was supported in this contention by my noble friend Lord Sinclair of Cleeve. One comparatively small point he made was that it was restrictive, in the sense that it does not take account of other public purposes such as those laid down in Part VIII of the Third Schedule to the Water Act, 1945—allowing for fire-fighting, cleaning of sewers and so on. I am informed that the amount of water used in this way is comparatively small and the Government have no objection to including these words in this clause. So I think we can dispose of that particular restriction in a friendly manner.
But, coming to the wider picture, I have to differ from both noble Lords. In fact, we believe that our Amendment is more comprehensive and better than it would be with the alteration proposed by the noble Lords. In the first place, the effect of adopting the two Amendments 97A and 97C would be that subsection (1), as amended, would refer to all the functions of a river authority. The first objection to that is that there cannot be any reason why, in assessing the requirements of water undertakings, the river authorities must bring into consideration the transferred functions. The statutory water undertakings cannot really have any reason for their requirements becoming a sort of interference (if I may put it in that way) with, for example, the problems of land drainage and fisheries. If it were necessary to bring in more than we have in our Amendment, I think it would be more reasonable to propose that at least the river authorities should be required to have particular regard to these statutory duties of any relevant statutory water undertaker in respect of the new functions which they have to carry out under the Act. That is the first point I have to make in criticism of the noble Lords' Amendments.
1126
The second point arises from the definition of "relevant statutory water undertaker" in subsection (2). The noble Lords' Amendment would mean that the whole Act is lumped together and that, even when considering applications for abstraction licences or impounding works, the Trent River Authority, say (to go on with the example I chose before), would have to consult Birmingham Corporation. We think that that is getting down to such niggling details of administration as to be a real interference with the efficiency of the river authorities in question. We think that, by specifying quite clearly the duties, and focusing attention upon them (first in regard of Clause 14, where the relevant statutory water undertaker is defined in a very wide comprehensive manner, as I explained a few minutes ago) we are doing much more to ensure that, in planning, the statutory duties of water undertakings will be considered in the very beginning. Therefore they are much more likely to have no difficulty in the future in getting the supplies they want, because there will now be a statutory duty placed upon the river authority to consider their requirements—wherever those undertakers may have their headquarters, within or without the authority. They will be taken into consideration and planned for right at the beginning.
If there is no specific instruction to carry out this form of consultation under Clause 14, we feel that it could be overlooked, if a river authority were not on its toes. We do not want to bring into Part IV the same definition of "relevant statutory water undertaking", because we think that only the water undertakings which are relevant to the operation of the Bill are those which are actually applying for licences to abstract water in the area or building impounding works. We feel that by focusing attention on the two Parts of the Bill referred to in this Amendment we are much more sure of producing the result than we should be if we applied the Amendment in the more general sense which noble Lords have suggested. Therefore I hope that they will feel that it is better to leave the Government Amendment as it stands while we arrange the addition of the words in their Amendment No. 97B.
LORD LINDGREN: My Lords, may I reciprocate in a friendly manner and take advantage of the offer of the noble

1127
Lord to include the words about public water supply? I would join the noble Lord, Lord Sinclair of Cleeve, in appreciation of what has been done to meet the point of view of those responsible for statutory water undertakings. If the words of the noble Lord, Lord Hastings, were in the Bill, I am certain that the fears which have been expressed by the undertakers would not exist. All that they are concerned about is that the river authorities shall take into account the needs of statutory undertakers when they are giving away water to other abstracters, so that the granting of any other licences for abstraction to other persons and interests will not in any way prejudice the supply of the statutory undertakers and their obligations to the public.
The noble Lord, Lord Hastings, said—I am paraphrasing him, of course—that the function of the river authority is to plan so that there is no difficulty of supply and that the demands of the statutory water undertakers in meeting their statutory obligations are planned for well in advance. If that is the effect, then, of course, the statutory undertakers have no need to fear. We are most grateful to the noble Lord for the time, thought and attention that he has given to this matter. Perhaps we are not so satisfied as we ought to be, but we hope that we shall be proved wrong when the Bill comes into operation. If it is operated in the manner described by the noble Lord, then I am certain that our fears are groundless, and with the permission of the House I would withdraw my Amendment. My next Amendment, I understand, was accepted in principle and will be a matter of drafting by the Government later on, and I shall not move that Amendment.
Amendment to the Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD HURCOMB LORD HURCOMB moved, after Clause 93, to insert the following new clause:
Land of special natural interest
". Where the Nature Conservancy are of opinion that any area of land, not being land for the time being managed as a nature reserve, is of special interest by reason of its flora, fauna or geological or physiographical features and may at any time be affected by
1128
schemes, operations or activities of a River Authority, it shall be the duty of the Conservancy to notify that fact to the river authority in whose area the land is situated."
The noble Lord said: My Lords, the object of this new clause which I propose is to facilitate the work of Clause 93, which your Lordships have already accepted. Under Section 23 of the National Parks Act, 1949, it is the duty of the Nature Conservancy to notify to the local planning authority any area of land, not being an area of a nature reserve, which in their opinion is of special scientific interest. This is intended to ensure, and in practice does ensure, that before authorising any change in use within the meaning of the planning Acts—in which, of course, there are some gaps with which all naturalists do not agree—the planning authority ascertain and listen to any views or objections which the Nature Conservancy may have to the proposed change or development. This applies equally to the Minister, if the proposal or scheme ever reaches that stage. Apart from a few unfortunate oversights, the procedure has been found to work well, to avoid clashes of interest and, in some cases, to lead to satisfactory adjustments.
I suggest that an Amendment of the kind which I propose will have a similar effect. It will place on the Nature Conservancy an obligation to notify river authorities of any land of special scientific interest in their areas, and the Conservancy would no doubt send copies of these notifications to the Water Resources Board. It would then, I suggest, be reasonable for the Minister to give a direction to the river authorities under Clause 95, as he is entitled to do, requiring them to consult the Conservancy at the earliest possible stage about any scheme, operations or activities likely to affect the areas of which they have been notified. This procedure would involve no duality of control. It would not be burdensome to either side. I submit, however, that it would help to create at all stages an atmosphere of confidence and co-operation between the engineers and the biologists and enable alterations or modifications of schemes to be carried out without making differences a matter of prestige and policy.
Those who have suffered so often in the past from insufficient regard being paid to the considerations to which

1129
Clause 93 calls attention would be grateful to the noble Earl if he could ensure that everything possible was done to make that regard a reality. He would increase the obligations to him that we all feel are placed upon us by the action he has already taken. I hope, therefore, that he will be able to accept this clause and give an assurance that in due course he will use his own powers of direction to help make it work. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 93, insert the said new clause—(Lord Hurcomb.)
LORD CHORLEY: My Lords, may I say a word or two in support of this Amendment? I think it is supported by all of us who have been looking at this Bill from the point of view of the protection of amenities. It seems to me to fall within the policy which the noble Earl acceded to when he put down his Amendment requiring that, at an early stage in one of these exercises, everybody concerned with the matter should be brought in instead of dealing with each other at arm's length and possibly getting involved in a dispute which need never have happened had they put their heads together earlier. It is just this sort of policy which the present Amendment has been drafted to carry through. I think there was strong support for the view expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Hurcomb, speaking from his great knowledge of these matters, that the sooner all those interested in these problems handled them together, the better. In nine cases out of ten they are able to reach some arrangement which satisfies them all, and this means that it goes through without any particular difficulty. I therefore hope that the noble Earl will be able to accept the Amendment.
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, I have listened very attentively to what the noble Lords, Lord Hurcomb and Lord Chorley, have said. I cannot myself claim any intimate knowledge of the Nature Conservancy's work. Nevertheless, having read some of their more recent Reports, having listened to the debate which the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, initiated in this House in February last year, having heard what the noble Lord, Lord Fleck, had to say at the Second Reading of this Bill, and to what the noble Lord, Lord Hurcomb, has had to say at later stages of it, I am not unaware of the Con-
1130
servancy's close and legitimate interest in matters of water conservation.
I think there is much to be said for the noble Lord's proposed new clause. Early information will undoubtedly help to avoid possible clashes of interest between the river authorities and the Nature Conservancy. We think this formal provision in the new clause for the supply of information to River Authorities will avoid such clashes of interest and work in fact to the advantage of all concerned.
I am not quite so certain about what the noble Lord said as to the exercise of my right honourable friend's powers of direction under Clause 95 in this respect. That is a matter on which I for one, should like to reflect, and I should not wish in anything I am saying now in any way to commit my right honourable friend, because, on the whole, on matters of this sort, I should have thought they were far better left to the good sense and co-operation between the bodies concerned. But, that said, I am glad to be able to say that I am willing to accept the noble Lord's Amendment.
LORD HURCOMB: My Lords, I am obliged to the noble Earl.
On Question, Amendment agreed to,
6.14 p.m.
LORD ST. OSWALD LORD ST. OSWALD moved, after Clause 94, to insert the following new clause.
Power to restrict or extend spray irrigation provisions
".—(1) The Ministers may by order direct that references in this Act to spray irrigation, or such of those references as may be specified in the order, shall be construed as not including spray irrigation if carried out by such methods or in such circumstances or for such purposes as may be specified in the order.
(2) Without prejudice to the exercise of the power conferred by the preceding subsection, the Ministers may by order direct that references in this Act to spray irrigation, or such of those references as may be specified in the order, shall be construed as including references to the carrying out, by such methods or in such circumstances or for such purposes as may be specified in the order, of irrigation of any such description, other than spray irrigation, as may be so specified."
The noble Lord said: My Lords, this Amendment is put down in response to two different points raised during the Committee proceedings on Clause 24. Subsection (1) of the proposed new clause

1131
tackles the difficulty of making an exact definition of "spray irrigation" by giving the Ministers of Housing and Agriculture jointly power to make an order declaring that certain activities are not to be regarded as within the definition of spray irrigation contained in Clause 117 (1) of the Bill. The Ministers will have this power at hand should it be necessary to take some steps to make plain, for example, that spraying crops with a pesticide made up with water is not spray irrigation, or that spraying of water from watercress beds over the heads of the growing cress is exempt from licensing. Subsection (2) will enable the two Ministers by order made jointly to bring irrigation by other methods within the term "spray irrigation", and so to make abstractions for such purposes amenable to control under the Bill. This is to implement an undertaking which I gave to the noble Lord, Lord Lindgren, in Committee. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 94 insert the said new clause.—(Lord St. Oswald.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
EARL JELLICOE EARL JELLICOE moved, after Clause 94, to insert the following new clause
Compensation of officers and servants
".—(1) The Ministers shall by regulations make provision requiring the payment by such river authority as may be prescribed by or determined under the regulations, subject to such exceptions or conditions as may be so prescribed, of compensation to or in respect of persons who are, or but for any national service of theirs would be, the holders of any such situation, place or employment as may be so prescribed who suffer loss of employment, or loss or diminution of emoluments, in consequence of—

(a) any of the provisions of section 5 or Part IX of this Act, or

(b) any order under section 10 of this Act,

(c) any order or agreement under section 75 of this Act.

(2) Different regulations may be made under this section in relation to different classes of persons, and any such regulations may be so framed as to have effect as from a date earlier than that on which they are made, so however that so much of any regulations as provides that any provision thereof is to have effect as from a date earlier than that on which they are made shall not place any person (other than a river authority) in a worse position than he would have been in if the regulations had been so framed as to have effect only as from the date on which they are made.
(3) Regulations made under this section may include provision as to the manner in which, and the person to whom, any claim for compensation under this section is to be made, and for the determination of all questions arising under the regulations.
(4) In this section 'national service' means any such service in any of Her Majesty's forces or other employment (whether or not in the service of Her Majesty) as may be prescribed by regulations under this section; and for the purposes of the making of any regulations which would apply to loss of employment, or loss or diminution of emoluments, in consequence of any such order or agreement as is mentioned in section 75 (8) of this Act, the Ministers' in this section means the Minister, the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food and the Minister of Transport acting jointly."
The noble Earl said: My Lords, as I made clear in speaking to Amendment No. 92, this new clause is designed to replace the existing Clause 90. It is in the same terms as Clause 90, except that, first, subsection (1) is extended to require the regulations to provide for compensating any persons who suffer loss of employment or reduction in pay in consequence of any order under Clause 10 or any order or agreement under Clause 75; and, secondly, consequent upon this, subsection (4) is extended to provide that regulations (which otherwise fail to be made by the Minister of Housing and Local Government and the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food acting jointly) are to be made jointly by those Ministers and the Minister of Transport, in relation to any employees of a navigation authority, conservancy authority or harbour authority who suffer loss of employment or reduction in pay as the result of an order or agreement under Clause 75.
The extension of subsection (1) is designed to allay the disquiet expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Burden, in Committee. Since then NALGO have reverted to the charge and have pointed out, as indeed I did at Committee, that Clause 75 (4) merely enables, and does not require, orders under the clause to include provision for compensation. Subsection (1) of the new clause is designed to put the matter beyond doubt, and I was glad to hear from the noble Lord, Lord Burden, just now that it was satisfactory to the Association. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 94, insert the said new clause.—(Earl Jellicoe.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 99 [Rights of entry and inspection]:
LORD ST. OSWALD: My Lords, Clause 99 (1) (a) is too restrictive and is narrower than the power of entry possessed by river boards under the River Boards Act, 1948. The closing words "in relation to that land" confine the power of entry to the land on which functions of the authority are to be discharged. This would seriously hinder the authorities in the discharge of their functions, particularly those relating to land drainage. The point can be readily illustrated. The river authority must clearly be able to get access to any part of the bank of a river for which it is responsible. To do so its people may need to enter and pass across land intervening between the nearest public highway and the riparian land on which work is to be done or an inspection made. Powers of entry must apply to the intervening land. These facilities will be secured by this Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
page 82, line 21, leave out from ("functions") to end of line 22 and insert ("of the authority, whether in relation to that land or not").—(Lord St. Oswald.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD ST. OSWALD: My Lords, this Amendment is on the same point as the preceding one. Here the effect explained in relation to the Amendment is being put right for officers of the Minister of Housing and Local Government, the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food and the Minister of Transport where about the Minister's business, as it was in the previous subsection persons authorised by the river authority. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 82, line 34, leave out from ("performing") to ("any") in line 38 and insert ("whether in relation to that land or not, any functions conferred on any of those Ministers (whether alone or jointly with any other Minister) by").—(Lord St. Oswald.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD ST. OSWALD: My Lords, this is a drafting Amendment consequential upon the preceding Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 82, line 44. leave out from first ("any") to ("are") in line 1 on page 83
1134
and insert ("such functions").—(Lord St. Oswald.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to,
Clause 102 [Power to require information]:
LORD HASTINGS: My Lords, this Amendment supplies a missing word. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 86, line 17, after ("and") insert ("who").—(Lord Hastings.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 105 [Validity of decisions of Minister and proceedings relating thereto]:
LORD HASTINGS: My Lords, this Amendment and the next go together, and their effect is to add decision by the Minister on reference under Clause 58 (4) (which was the subject of Amendment No. 59D dealt with this afternoon about charging agreements to be determined by the Minister), to the classes of decisions which may be questioned in the High Court under Clause 105. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 87, line 27, leave out ("or section 42 (5)") and insert ("section 42 (5) or section 58 (4)").—(Lord Hastings.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD HASTINGS: My Lords, I beg to move this Amendment formally.
Amendment moved—
Page 87, line 33, after ("38") insert ("or section 58 (4)").—(Lord Hastings.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD ST. OSWALD LORD ST. OSWALD moved, after Clause 106, to insert the following new clause:
Procedure relating to byelaws
". The provisions of Schedule 9 to this Act shall have effect with respect to byelaws made by a river authority in the exercise of powers conferred on them by any enactment, including any enactment contained in this Act."
The noble Lord said: My Lords, I mentioned this new clause in moving Amendment No. 76. It provides that the procedural provisions of Schedule 9 are to have effect with respect to all the bylaws made by a river authority. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 106, insert the said new clause.—(Lord St. Oswald.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 108 [Calculation of appropriate penny rate product]:
LORD HASTINGS: My Lords, this Amendment is little more than drafting, but needs perhaps a short explanation. The latter part of subsection (7) of Clause 108 is concerned to define the relevant year in relation to the calculation of appropriate penny rate products. As the Bill stands, it does not deal with the case in which the appropriate penny rate product is required to be used in apportioning the local authority's members of a river authority established by order under Clause 10. This Amendment puts that situation right. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 90, line 45, leave out from ("authority") to end of line 46 and insert ("under Section 3 or of an order under Section 10 of this Act, have been issued by the river authority or river authorities to whom the order relates (excluding, in the case of an order under Section 10 establishing a new river authority, that new authority)").—(Lord Hastings.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 112 [Provisions as to Thames Lee and London areas]:
EARL JELLICOE EARL JELLICOE moved in subsection (4), to leave out "and is so" and to substitute:
" then, in relation to any river authority whose area, by virtue of the order, will consist of or include the whole or any part of the Thames catchment area, the Lee catchment area or the London excluded area—

(a) Sections 6 to 8 (except subsection (6) of Section 6) of this Act shall not apply, but the order shall make such provision as to the constitution of that river authority as appears to the Ministers to correspond as nearly as may be to the provisions of those Sections, and

(b) the order may provide that Section 79 and (so far as applicable for the purposes of that Section) Section 108 of this Act, and Schedule 3 to this Act, and any other provision of this Act which refers to local authorities or any class of local authorities, shall apply subject to such exceptions, adaptations and modifications as may be specified in the order;

and if the order is ".
The noble Earl said: My Lords, this Amendment is self-explanatory, but per-
1136
haps I should say a word or two on it. Under the Bill, alternative approaches to the matter of the Thames, Lee and London areas are provided for. Under Clause 112 (1) an order may be made conferring on the existing bodies—the Thames Conservancy and the Lee Conservancy Catchment Board—functions corresponding to the new functions of river authorities. Such an order can, under subsection (2) of the clause, make any necessary adaptations of the Bill. The alternative approach, the second possibility, is an order under Clause 10 altering a river authority area or river authority areas so as to include the whole or part of the Thames, Lee and London Areas, or designating the whole or part of any of those Areas as a new river authority. This alternative approach is referred to in Clause 112, subsections (3) and (4). As Clauses 10 and 112 at present stand, were such an order to be made there would be no power corresponding to that in subsection (2) to make by the Order adaptations of the Bill.
Some adaptations of provisions of the Bill would, however, be necessary in respect of any area falling within the present administrative County of London, or if, parenthetically and provocatively, I prefer to say, when the London Government Bill becomes law, within Great London. Clauses 6 to 8 of the Bill, which relate to the constitution of river authorities, and other provisions of the Bill relating to local authorities would not fit the special circumstances of London government since in the definition of "constituent council" in Clause 6 (7) only councils of counties and county boroughs are referred to, and since "local authority" in the Bill is defined to mean "the council of a county, county borough or county district, or joint planning board". I think I am right in saying that neither the present metropolitan boroughs nor the future London local authorities would fall within those definitions. The Amendment therefore provides that if a Clause 10 Order affecting the Thames, Lee or London Areas is made, Clauses 6 to 8 of the Bill (except Clause 6 (6) which applies the procedural provisions of Schedule 3) are not to apply, and that the Order may adapt Clause 79 affecting precepts, and Clause 108, which deals

1137
with the calculation of penny rate products, and any other provisions of the Bill referring to local authorities. I hope your Lordships understand that explanation. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 92, line 39, leave out ("and is so") and insert the said words.—(Earl Jellicoe.)
Lord LINDGREN: My Lords, we accept the Amendment as put before the House by the noble Earl. He referred to the London Government Bill. In accepting the Amendment, and not being provocative, may I assure him that we shall be much more provocative when the London Government Bill comes before this House than we have been on this Bill. If he is fortunate enough to be the Government representative on that Bill, then he will not have such an easy time as he has had on this one.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 114 [Saving far orders under Water Act 1958]:
Lord HASTINGS: My Lords, this new clause is largely self-explanatory. The purpose of it is; to provide the Postmaster General with the protection which is normally afforded him in cases of this sort. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 114, insert the following new clause:
Provisions as to telegraphic lines
(".—(1) Where for the purpose of carrying out any engineering or building operations a river authority require an alteration to be made in any telegraphic line of the Postmaster General, the provisions of paragraphs (1) to (8) of section 7 of the Telegraph Act 1878 (which provides for the alteration of such telegraphic lines in the case of work proposed to be done in the execution of an undertaking authorised by an Act of Parliament) shall apply with respect to that alteration as being an alteration involved by work proposed to be done by undertakers (within the meaning of that Act) in the execution of an undertaking authorised by an Act of Parliament, if apart from this section those provisions would not so apply.
(2) The preceding subsection shall have effect whether the operations in question are to be carried out in the exercise of compulsory powers or not, and, if in the exercise of compulsory powers, whether or not the alteration of the telegraphic line is expressly referred to in any statutory provision conferring those powers.
(3) In this section 'telegraphic line' and 'alteration' have the same meanings as in the Telegraph Act 1878.").—(Lord Hastings.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD HASTINGS LORD HASTINGS moved, after Clause 114 to insert the following new Clause:
Inland waters owned or managed by British Waterways Board
".—(1) This section applies to all inland waters owned or managed by the British Waterways Board (in this section referred to as 'the Board'), except any such inland waters to which the Minister and the Minister of Transport may by order jointly direct that this section shall not apply.
(2) In respect of abstraction from an inland water to which this section applies—

(a) no person other than the Board shall be entitled to apply for a licence under this Act, other than a licence of right;

(b) in relation to any application by the Board for a licence under this Act, other than a licence of right, section 27 of this Act shall not apply, and section 28 (1) of this Act shall apply as if paragraph (b) of that subsection were omitted;

(c) no person other than the Board shall be entitled to apply for a licence of right, as being entitled to it by virtue of paragraph (b) of section 33 (1) of this Act, if the water abstracted as mentioned in that paragraph was abstracted in pursuance of a contract of sale;

(d) on any application by the Board for a licence of right any water abstracted during the relevant period (as defined by section 34 (1) (b) of this Act) shall be disregarded if it was abstracted in pursuance of a contract of sale which has ceased to be in force before the second appointed day.

(3) Where on the second appointed day the Board are under a contract to sell wafer from an inland water to which this section applies (whether the contract was made by the Board or is a contract made before the vesting date by which the Board became bound on that date), then for the purposes of sections 33 to 35 of this Act—

(a) no person other than the Board shall be taken to be entitled to abstract from that inland water any water to which that contract relates;

(b) any water abstracted from it in pursuance of that contract before the second appointed day shall be treated as having been abstracted by the Board and not by any other person, and

(c) in relation to any licence authorising the abstraction from that inland water of water required for fulfilling that contract, any reference in section 34 of this Act (except in subsection (1) (a) thereof) to the relevant statutory provision shall be construed as a reference to that contract.

(4) Where on or after the second appointed day the Board enter into a contract to sell water from an inland water to which this section applies, and either—

(a) the contract is made before the end of the initial period, or

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(b) the Minister of Transport gives his consent under section 63 of the Transport Act 1962 to the sale of the water in pursuance of that contract, and that consent is given in pursuance of an application made (whether before or after the passing of this Act) before the end of the initial period.

section 54 (3) of this Act shall not apply, but the river authority, on the application of the Board, shall grant to the Board a licence under this Act to abstract water, containing such provisions as appear to the river authority to correspond as nearly as may be to the terms of that contract:
Provided that, if the terms of the contract provide for a person other than the Board to abstract the water, then for the purposes of this subsection the contract shall be construed as if those terms had provided for the water to be abstracted by the Board for the purpose of selling it to that other person.
(5) Sections 27 to 29 of this Act shall not have effect with respect to any application made to a river authority under the last preceding subsection, but sections 39 and 40 of this Act shall have effect (with the necessary modifications) in relation to such an application as they have effect in relation to other applications for licences under this Act.
(6) Where the Board are the holders of a licence under this Act authorising abstraction from an inland water to which this section applies, then, notwithstanding anything in section 56 of this Act, the charges which, apart from this subsection, would be payable in respect of that licence under any charging scheme either—

(a) shall be reduced to such extent, and as so reduced shall be payable subject to such conditions, or

(b) shall not be payable,

as the Board and the river authority may agree, or, in default of such agreement, the Minister and the Minister of Transport may jointly determine
(7) Where a person other than the Board is the holder of a licence under this Act authorising abstraction from an inland water to which this section applies, and any charges in respect of that licence are payable under a charging scheme, the river authority shall pay to the Board such proportion of those charges, subject to such conditions, as the Board and the river authority may agree, or, in default of such agreement, the Minister and the Minister of Transport may jointly determine.
(8) Before making an order under subsection (1) of this section, the Minister and the Minister of Transport shall consult the Board and such one or more river authorities as appear to them to be affected by the order:
Provided that, if the order is made before the second appointed day, any consultation which in accordance with this subsection would have been had with a river authority shall be had instead with the river board (or, if more than one, each river board) whose area by virtue of section 3 of this Act is or will be identical with, or part of, the area of that river authority.
(9) In this section references to the sale by the Board of water from an inland water include references to any arrangements whereby the Board for valuable consideration abstract, or authorise the abstraction of, water from that inland water for use by some other person, whether or not the water is returned after use, and 'the vesting date' has the same meaning as in the Transport Act 1962."
The noble Lord said: My Lords, this is the new clause to which my noble friend Lord St. Oswald referred in his reply to the noble Earl, Lord Lucan, on a previous Amendment on Tuesday. It is a long clause and not at all an easy one, and in view of its importance I am afraid I shall have to take some time in explaining it to your Lordships. By way of background and introduction, your Lordships will remember that Section 10 (3) (d) of the Transport Act, 1962, equipped the British Waterways Board, established by that Act, with powers to abstract and sell untreated water from
"any inland waterway owned or managed by the Board for any purpose".
Section 62 of the Act established the right of the Board, in the circumstances mentioned in that section, to take water into a canal for the purpose of subsequent sale, as well as for the ordinary purposes of keeping the canal supplied with water, Section 63 gave the Minister of Transport some control over the abstraction of water for sale by the Board, and the control of the Minister is put in as a result of certain criticism while the Bill went through Parliament.
By this Amendment, the new clause has the purpose of making special arrangements for abstractions from inland waters owned or managed by the British Waterways Board, and thereby to replace Section 63 of the Transport Act, 1962, which was really a piece of holding legislation so far as that section applies to England and Wales. The primary object is to apply these special arrangements to the British Waterways Board's mainly artificial canals, leaving the provisions of the Bill to apply unamended to abstractions from all other inland waterways owned or managed by the Board, whether these be natural rivers or artificial cuts made for the improvement of such rivers. The exact definition of such canals is difficult. Therefore it is proposed to proceed by listing the inland waterways owned or managed by the Board to which the special provisions will not apply, and this will be done after consultation with

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the interests concerned and jointly by the Minister of Housing and Local Government and the Minister of Transport.
The main provisions of subsection (2) are that on inland waterways to which the clause applies only the Waterways Board shall be emitted to apply for a licence other than a licence of right; that abstraction of water pursuant to a contract with the Board during what is, under Clause 33 (1) (b) of this Bill, the qualifying period for application for a licence of right shall not entitle the abstracter to apply for such a licence; and, particularly, that, tin relation to the application for a licence of right no account shall be taken of water abstracted during the qualifying period as a result of a contract with the Board which before the second appointed day has ceased to be in force. Subsection (3) secures that where here is on the second appointed day a valid contract for the sale of water, the Board is to be treated as the abstracter for the purpose of the Bill; and for the purpose of settling the terms of the licence of right for that abstraction under Clause 34 the contract is to be regarded as a "relevant statutory provision". There are appropriate transitional provisions and adaptations of the procedure governing applications for licences in subsections (4) and (5).
Subsections (6) and (7) deal with the charges under the Bill. Where the British Waterways Board are the holders of a licence authorising abstraction of water from an inland water to which the clause applies, then, in spite of what is contained in any charging scheme under Clause 56, the charges payable in relation to that licence shall be reduced or remitted altogether, as the Waterways Board and the river authority may agree, or, failing such agreement, as the Ministry of Housing and Local Government and the Minister of Transport jointly may determine. Further, when any person other than the Board is the licence holder on an inland water to which the clause applies and charges are payable in relation to that licence under a charging scheme, the river authority are to pay to the Board a proportion of those charges agreed or determined as in the other case just mentioned. This is the mechanism which ensures, first, that abstracters from these canals will not be subjected to a double charge—one by the Waterways Board
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and one by the river authority—and, second, that the financial position of the Waterways Board is not radically undermined. These are points which were raised by the noble Earl, Lord Lucan, and by the noble Viscount, Lord Colville of Culross, during the Committee stage.
The people I refer to now as having a licence under a charging scheme and drawing water from canals are those who would be doing it pursuant to a contract with the British Waterways Board, but there are other abstractions lawfully made from such inland waters; for example, by persons having direct statutory authority by virtue of the provisions in canal legislation, or other legislation, or by persons exercising some non-statutory right without payment to the Board. These persons, in common with abstracters from other inland waters, will become subject to the normal provisions of the Bill as to licences of right and as to charges payable to the river authority. In other words, they will get their licences from the river authority, and not from the Waterways Board, and they will pay their charges to the river authority, some of which will be passed on to the British Waterways Board.
So much for the special arrangements of the new clause. At the same time I want to present a general point to your Lordships. The Government think it necessary to make it quite clear at the present stage that any arrangements laid down in this Bill to govern abstractions from canals or other navigable waterways are quite without prejudice to any general legislation that may be later thought necessary to deal directly with the general problems of inland waterways. It will be remembered that the Report of the Bowes Committee of Inquiry into Inland Waterways, published in 1958, suggested that steps should be taken to deal with those cases where obligations to provide free or unduly cheap supplies of water from canals are burdensome to the canal owners.
If conservation is to be effective the Government believe that canals, as well as natural rivers, must be subject to some sort of control. It follows from this that, for the purposes of the present Bill, the various arrangements governing abstractions, including the grant of protected

1143
rights under Clause 26, make no distinction between the two categories. But, as was stated in Appendix II to the Proud-man Report, there are at present important differences between the nature of rights in water in artificial streams and in natural streams. The most important of these differences is that there appear to be no natural (riparian) rights in the flow of water in an artificial stream as there are in a natural stream. Various rights may have been acquired by Statute, by ownership of land or by grant or prescription. If these now represent obligations which are out of date and burdensome upon the owner of the artificial stream or navigation, it seems to be fair that Parliament should have an opportunity to consider in the context of future general waterways legislation whether it is right to allow them to continue. This Bill would not be the correct context in which to do so. Therefore, while it is proper for it to deal with artificial streams as well as with natural ones, it should not be assumed that any protected rights to take water from such artificial streams conferred only for the purposes of this Bill will necessarily continue indefinitely.
I should like to apologise for the length of this explanation, but I thought it was necessary in view of the complexity and importance of this clause. It safeguards the position of the British Waterways Board in respect of their artificial canals, and they will be the people to deal direct with the river authority in respect of abstraction in the main, and they will be able to sell the water as at present. They have agreed to give up those rights in respect of the natural streams and artificial cuts improving natural streams. That, very briefly, is the situation. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 114 insert the said new clause.—(Lord Hastings.)
THE EARL OF LUCAN: My Lords I am glad that the noble Lord did not preface his remarks by saying that this Amendment is self-explanatory, because we needed all he had to give us in the way of explanation; and, even now, I cannot claim to understand the new clause, I welcome, however, his assurance that it safeguards the rights about which we were inquiring. I think his explanation
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of the clause, and still more the subsequent explanation of policy that he gave us, need very careful looking at afterwards on paper.
I am glad to hear that the Government definitely contemplate further legislation to deal with canals and waterways, and I should like to ask only one question. He has dealt with waterways owned or managed by the British Waterways Board. What about the independent waterways which still need their supply of water and still need to be able to obtain revenue by selling it? Could we hear whether they are covered by this same clause?
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: My Lords, since I raised this point on Committee, I also would express gratitude to my noble friend for introducing this clause and explaining it to your Lordships. I thought I had found my way through it before, and I still think I have. Nevertheless, an explanation was, I am sure, necessary, because, to be perfectly frank, I have a feeling that this clause smacks in places of double-think. Nevertheless, I am certain it does the job my noble friend set out to do and it cures a very bad gap which was in the Bill. I am glad to see its insertion this afternoon.
LORD LINDGREN: My Lords, I do not want to detract from the note of appreciation that has been sounded already. In fact, seeing that this concerns the British Waterways Board I am delighted that this clause has been agreed to by the Government, and there is no envy in my heart. But I would call attention to a little inconsistency on the part of the Government—my noble friend behind me says, "Only a little?". At earlier stages I have been asking, and the Government have refused the request, that where an abstracter had already paid the cost of his water works there should be no charge from the river board. I would refer the noble Lord, Lord Hastings, to a subsection which he mentioned in his introductory speech, subsection (6) which reads:
"Where the Board are the holders of a licence under this Act authorising abstraction from an inland water to which this section applies…the charges…

(a) shall be reduced to such extent, and as so reduced shall be payable subject to such conditions, or

(b) shall not be payable."

1145
That is all I was asking for earlier in regard to the statutory water undertaker who was carrying out existing abstractions and who had in fact paid for the works necessary in relation to those abstractions. I do not object at all that the Government have conceded this to the British Waterworks Board, who constructed, or whose predecessors constructed, the works. But it is a little inconsistent of the Government to accede to one request and refuse another.
LORD HASTINGS: My Lords, I am very glad for the general welcome given to this clause, and rather grateful for the lack of piercing questions which might have been thrown at me, because it is not long since I had to absorb the details of this new clause. I would say, in reply to the noble Earl, Lord Lucan, in respect of private canals, that I understand that abstractions from those are exempt under Clause 24 (4) and (6), and the position with regard to the charges will depend upon the canal statutes authority. I do not think I have to say anything in reply to the noble Viscount, Lord Colville of Culross, except to examine again some of the "doublethink", as I believe he put it, which there may be in the clause.
In reply to the noble Lord, Lord Lindgren, whom I am almost induced to refer to as "my noble friend" by now, I think he should not worry unduly—he said he was not envious—that the British Waterways Board are getting preferred treatment in comparison to the statutory water undertakers; because as we know very well, under the Bill as it is the statutory water undertakers can, as a result of impounding works, get a much reduced charge, as laid down in subsection (6) (a). So far as I know, the words "shall not be payable"—which are qualified by the necessity for arrangements and agreements between water boards and the Ministers and the river authorities—are not so very different from the words contained in the Bill which allow for complete exemption of charges. I think that is the answer I would give to the noble Lord, Lord Lindgren.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 116 [Regulations and orders]:
LORD ST. OSWALD: My Lords, this Amendment follows from a Government Amendment introducing a new clause
1146
after Clause 94, giving power to restrict or extend by ministerial order the spray irrigation provisions in the Bill. The Amendment makes such orders subject to annulment by resolution of either House of Parliament. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 95, line 32, after ("55") insert ("under section Power to restrict or extend spray irrigation provisions)"). —(Lard St. Oswald.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
EARL JELLICOE moved EARL JELLICOE moved, at end of subsection 6 (b), to insert:
"or,
(c) an order under the last preceding section."
The noble Earl said: My Lords, this is, in the main, a drafting Amendment. The effect of the Amendment is to bring an order under Clause 115 into the list of those subject to annulment by either House of Parliament. But provision has been made already by paragraph (c) of subsection (5) of Clause 116 for certain orders under Clause 115 to be subject to the more vigorous procedure requiring them to be approved by Resolution of each House before coming into effect. The drafting Amendment at page 95, line 36, so alters the proviso to Clause 116 (6) as to preserve this position.
The matter of procedure in relation to orders under Clause 115 was discussed during our Committee stage upon an Amendment moved by the noble Viscount, Lord Colville of Culross, and at that stage, and in further correspondence with my noble friend Lord St. Oswald, we have sought to show that the main operation of adjusting compensation water provisions, to which the force of Lord Colville of Culross's Amendment was directed, will be undertaken under other provisions of the Bill which bring in rights of objection and representation. What is done by order under Clause 115 will be in the nature of tidying up. Nevertheless, it is right, in our view, that some check should be put upon the exercise of a power to alter things previously settled by Parliament; and the Amendment provides for this in making orders under Clause 115 subject to annulment by Resolution of either House. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 95, line 33, at end insert—
(" or, (c) an order under the last preceding section").—(Earl Jellicoe.)
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: My Lords, I am pleased that this particular Amendment has been put in as a "long stop"; I do not think it is more than that, or that it is intended to be more than that. I hope that the fact that my noble friend has conceded under Clause 115 this much of the point I perhaps wrongly tried to make in Committee will not detract from the assurance that they will have another look at the position under Clause 46, because I believe that deals really with the time to get this matter right, although it may be of value to have a second "go" in Parliament on occasions.
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, I should be very glad to have a further look at this point. I am not particularly optimistic that we shall come to a different conclusion, but we will have another look at it.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
6.50 p.m.
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, I move this Amendment formally.
Amendment moved—
Page 95, line 36, leave out from ("to") to end of line 38 and insert ("any order which, by virtue of paragraph (a) or paragraph (c) of the last preceding subsection, is required to be approved by a resolution of each House of Parliament—(Earl Jellicoe.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 117 [Interpretation]:
LORD ST. OSWALD: My Lords, this Amendment equips the Bill with a definition of "agriculture", and follows up the undertaking which I gave to my noble friend Lord Waldegrave, in Committee. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 96, line 10, at end insert—
("'agriculture' includes horticulture, fruit growing, seed growing, dairy farming, the breeding and keeping of livestock (including any creature kept for the production of food, wool, skins or fur, or for the purpose of its use in the farming of land), the use of land as grazing land, meadow land, osier land, market gardens and nursery grounds, and the use of land for woodlands where that use is ancillary to the farming of land for other agricultural purposes, and 'agricultural' shall be construed accordingly").—(Lord St. Oswald.)
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: My Lords, with respect to my noble friend, I do not think it does. It was
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I who suggested that a definition of "agriculture" should be included. What my noble friend Lord Waldegrave said was that it should include woodlands, And that is the one thing it does not do. Except and in so far as there would be the inclusion of nurseries and sapling trees, and suchlike, I do not see that woodlands themselves are included, unless they are ancillary to "farming of land for other agricultural purposes". My noble friend is not here to carry on with what he said in Committee. I wonder whether my noble friend would explain the point.
LORD ST. OSWALD: My Lords, I will look into this matter. I remember that my noble friend Lord Colville of Culross joined my noble friend Lord Waldegrave in this request. The definition which is now provided by the Government Amendment is the same as that used in the Town and Country Planning Act, 1962, and it has been accepted by the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food. It is of relevance in Clauses 6 and 19, and in Clauses 24 and 58. I am not absolutely certain whether it does include woodlands, but I believe that my noble friend is right in saying that it excludes woodlands.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD HASTINGS: My Lords, this Amendment is simply a definition of "engineering or building operations", a term which was introduced into Clauses 63 and 65 by earlier Amendments this afternoon. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 96. line 14, at end insert—
("'engineering or building operations' (without prejudice to the generality of that expression) includes the construction, alteration, improvement, or maintenance of any reservoir, watercourse, dam, weir, well, borehole or other works, the closure or removal of any reservoir, watercourse, dam, weir, well, borehole or other works, the construction, alteration, improvement, maintenance or demolition of any building or structure, and the installation, modification or removal of any machinery or apparatus.").—(Lord Hastings.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD HASTINGS: My Lords, this is the definition of a "joint planning board". The effect is that it means a joint planning board established by the Minister of Housing and Local Government for the areas of two or more county or county borough councils or for any parts of those

1149
areas. It includes also Joint Planning Boards for National Parks. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 96, line 32, at end insert—
("joint planning board' has the same meanoing as in the Town and Country Planning Act 1962")—(Lord Hastings.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD ST. OSWALD: My Lords, the Bill requires a definition of "land drainage", particularly as certain transfers of water made in the course of, or resulting from, "land drainage operations" are exempted from the restriction imposed by Clause 23. That definition is hereby provided. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 96, line 33, at end insert—
("'land drainage' includes the protection of land against erosion or encroachment by water, whether from inland waters or from the sea, and also includes warping and irrigation other than spray irrigation.")—(Lord St. Oswald.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, this Amendment is designed to meet the point which we discussed at some length on Clause 12, when we were discussing an Amendment moved by my noble friend Lord Conesford. I argued last Tuesday that this was a superior Amendment to my noble friend's Amendment. I do not propose to repeat my arguments now. Without going into further detail, I would claim that the broad effect of the Amendment is to bring the whole question of the use of treated salt water fully within the scope of the river authorities and of the Water Resources Board. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 99, line 7, at end insert—
("(4) Any reference in this Act to action for the purpose of augmenting water resources in an area shall (without prejudice to the generality thereof) be construed as including action for the purpose of treating salt water (whether taken from the sea or elsewhere) by any process for removing salt or other impurities before discharging it into a source of supply in that area").—(Earl Jellicoe.)
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS:My Lords, my noble and learned friend Lord Conesford has specially asked me to thank my noble friend Lord Jellicoe
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for this Amendment, which he says he agrees with entirely and thinks to be very good indeed. I feel that he would also like me to commend to your Lordships the absence of the word "desalination" in favour of rather happier Anglo-Saxon.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 118 [Amendments and repeals]:
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, this is solely a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 99, line 33, leave out subsection (1) and insert—
("(1) The enactments specified in Parts I to III of Schedule 10 to this Act shall have effect subject to the amendments specified in those Parts of that Schedule, being minor amendments or amendments consequential on the preceding provisions of this Act;
Provided that this subsection shall have effect subject to the provisions of Part IV of that Schedule, and to the following provisions of this section")—(Earl Jellicoe.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, this is another drafting Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 100, line 12, leave out first ("the") and insert ("a")—(Earl Jellicoe.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, this Amendment contains a saving for the Thames catchment area, the Lee catchment area and the London excluded area in respect of the general amendment and repeal of enactments effected by Clause 118 and Schedules 10 and 11. The saving is necessary since the Thames, Lee and London areas are left outside the river authority areas established by the Bill, and until something is done about this, under Clause 10 or under Clause 112, they must remain unaffected by the amendments and repeals of enactments for which the Bill provides. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 100, line 18, at end insert—
("(5) The amendment or repeal of any enactment by virtue of this section shall not affect the operation of that enactment in relation to the Thames catchment area, the Lee

1151
catchment area or the London excluded area (as defined by section 112 (5) of this Act):
Provided that—

(a) this subsection shall have effect without prejudice to the exercise, in relation to any such amendment or repeal, of the power conferred by section 112 (2) of this Act;

(b) if an order under section 10 of this Act is made as mentioned in paragraph (a) or paragraph (b) of section 112 (3) of this Act, any such amendment or repeal shall be included among the provisions which may be applied by the order as mentioned in section 112 (4) (b) of this Act")—(Earl Jellicoe.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 119 [Short title and extent]:
LORD HASTINGS: My Lords, these two Amendments really go together. The first has the effect of securing that paragraph 4 of Schedule 5 (which adds the Water Resources Board to the list of bodies whose members may not sit in the House of Commons) applies in Scotland as well as England and Wales. The other Amendment ensures that the same paragraph applies to Northern Ireland. I beg to move the first Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 100, line 22, after ("thereof") insert ("and paragraph 4 of Schedule 5 thereto").(Lord Hastings.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD HASTINGS: My Lords, I think that after this Amendment we shall not be continuing with the Report stage this evening. I want, however, to make a small correction to the answer that I gave to the noble Earl, Lord Lucan, when referring him to the reference with regard to private canals. I have had time to look it up since, and it is Clause 24 (4) (b) and not (4) and (6) as I said. I formally beg to move this Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 100, line 29, after ("Act") insert ("except paragraph 4 of Schedule 5)").—(Lord Hastings.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, we have now come up against the Schedules to the Bill, and I think we have therefore reached the point at which we were aiming for this evening. In view of that, I beg to move that further consideration of the Bill be adjourned.
Moved, That further consideration of the Bill be adjourned—(Earl Jellicoe.)
On Question, Motion agreed to

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