Sitting of 13 March 1962

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
PETITION

  Prescription Charges
  Mrs. Castle: Mr. Speaker, I beg to ask leave to present a Petition, signed by no fewer than 810,000 old-age pensioners and others in Great Britain. This Petition, signed by such a large number of our citizens, expresses a widespread and growing belief that the increase in prescription charges is a danger to the health of the people, particularly the old-age pensioners.
  The Petition sheweth
  That the increased charges for prescriptions will mean a deterioration in the health of the nation inasmuch as if these charges are not abolished pensioners and others will not be in a position to pay for prescriptions and will, therefore, not see the doctor when it is necessary.
  Wherefore your humble Petitioners ask that all prescription charges shall be abolished forthwith.
  And your Petitioners, as in duty bound will ever pray, etc.
  To lie upon the Table

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  BORNEO

    Development Corporation (Investment Offers)
    Mr. Turnerasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the offer by the North Borneo Government to invest $250,000 in the Borneo Development Corporation and a similar offer by the Sarawak Development Finance Corporation have yet been accepted; and if he will make a statement.
    The Secretary of State for the Colonies (Mr. Reginald Maudling): The Borneo
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    Development Corporation is a whollyowned subsidiary of the Colonial Development Corporation and I understand that the offers of the North Borneo Government and the Sarawak Development Finance Corporation are acceptable to the Corporation. I am at present considering the Corporation's application for sanction for additional capital for investment in the Borneo Development Corporation.
    Mr. Turner: Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that if the proposals for Greater Malaysia proceed with the speed that is intended, unless a really early decision is arrived at about the possible investment of this money in North Borneo it may be too late to act under the C.D.C. operation?
    Mr. Maudling: I am certainly aware of the need for proceeding as quickly as we can.
    Mr. Rankin: Are we to understand from that supplementary question and answer that it is the intention of the Government to bring North Borneo—700 miles from Malaya—into the Malaysian Federation?
    Mr. Maudling: The hon. Gentleman's supplementary question goes much wider than my hon. Friend's Question, which was devoted to a particular investment project.

  BRITISH GUIANA

    Disturbances
    Mr. Dribergasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what inquiry has been held into the causes of the recent disturbances in British Guiana; and what persons, firms, or organisations are shown by this inquiry to have been mainly responsible for instigating them.
    Mr. Maudling: Dr. Jagan, the Premier of British Guiana, has asked me to appoint a Commonwealth Commission of Inquiry with terms of reference "to inquire into the recent disturbances in British Guiana and the events leading up to them and to report thereon". I have informed Dr. Jagan that I will do so, and the necessary preliminary steps are being taken.
    Mr. Driberg: Why was the substance of the right hon. Gentleman's Answer

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    released by a spokesman of his Department last night? Is that not rather unusual—and rather disrespectful to the House—when a Question for Oral Answer is on the Order Paper for the next day?
    Mr. Maudling: I do not think so. I did have that point much in mind, but Dr. Jagan was making the request to me; and they wanted to publish it, and I thought it right to do so.
    Mr. G. M. Thomson: Will the Secretary of State look at that point again? Has it not been the usual practice when there have been riots in a territory like British Guiana for the announcement of a Committee of Inquiry to be made, in the first instance, in this House? As to the composition of the Commonwealth Commission, while we welcome that it is to have a Commonwealth membership, will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that the riots arose out of industrial disputes involving most industrial unions and civil servants in the territory? Will he, therefore, make sure that on the Commission there is a member with really good trade union standing?
    Mr. Maudling: I will certainly bear that in mind. In this particular case, it is rather important to stress that the request came from Dr. Jagan himself and wins made on his own initiative. That is very important for the future success of the Commission.

  NORTHERN RHODESIA

    Constitution
    Mr. Turtonasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware that the alterations now proposed in the constitution of Northern Rhodesia conflict with the undertakings given to the Federal Government at the time of the referendum in Southern Rhodesia; and whether he will make a statement.
    Mr. Maudling: No, Sir. I have nothing to add to the reply I made in response to a supplementary question from my hon. Friend the Member for Chigwell (Mr. Biggs-Davison) on the occasion of my statement of 28th February. I made it clear then that there had been no departure from any undertaking by Her Majesty's Government.
    Mr. Turton: Will my right hon. Friend clarify that earlier answer? Is he denying that the undertaking was given on 25th June to the Federal Prime Minister, or is he suggesting that the changes he announced on 28th February were not a sufficient departure to constitute a breach of the undertaking? Is he aware that on 6th March the Federal Prime Minister described the answer to which my right hon. Friend has referred as misleading in part and incorrect wholly?
    Mr. Maudling: It is for the House to judge the value of my Answers. In June we put forward certain proposals which we hoped would be definitive. Subsequently, in September, it was made clear that we were prepared to receive representations over a limited area of dispute. In view of our responsibilities to the people of Northern Rhodesia, we were prepared to do so.
    Mr. Biggs-Davison: Even if my right hon. Friend is correct, is he not aware that these charges of bad faith and sharp practice are being made from Salisbury? Is that not very damaging to Anglo-Rhodesian relations? What are Her Majesty's Government going to do about restoring good relations between the two Governments?
    Mr. Maudling: We are obviously anxious that the relations between the two Governments should be as cordial and as close as possible. For that reason nothing has been hidden by me from the Prime Minister of the Federation. I do not think we could get any further by bandying charges against one another.
    Mrs. Castleasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what steps he is taking to preserve law and order in Northern Rhodesia in view of the decision of the United Federal Party to resist the proposed new Constitution by unconstitutional means.
    Mr. Maudling: I am not aware of any such decision.
    Mrs. Castle: Has not the right hon. Gentleman seen the minutes of the emergency congress of the United Federal Party's officials at Broken Hill last September at which Mr. Julian Greenfield, the Federal Minister of Law, said that he would be prepared to use unconstitutional means in order to stop the June proposals being implemented? Is

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    not this subversive attitude of mind among Federal leaders most dangerous, and will not the right hon. Gentleman take steps to make sure, therefore, that no Federal troops are ever allowed inside Northern Rhodesia?
    Mr. Maudling: I have seen Press reports of what is supposed to be a document which emerged from a party meeting, but it is not for me to comment on the authenticity or otherwise of that document. In any case, I know of no decision by the United Federal Party to resist the proposed new Constitution I have recently announced.
    Mr. A. Robertsasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if, in view of the declaration by the United National Independence Party that the new constitution for Northern Rhodesia is unworkable, he will prepare new plans for that country.
    Mr. Maudling: No, Sir.
    Mr. Roberts: May I ask the Minister whether, if he is contemplating any further legislation, he will bear in mind that many of my hon. Friends and myself believe that the paramount need is the preservation of the Federation?
    Hon. Members: No.

    United Nations Convention (Education)
    Mr. Swinglerasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies to what extent the principles of the United Nations Convention against discrimination in education have already been applied to those parts of the educational system in Northern Rhodesia for which Her Majesty's Government are responsible; and how many multi-racial schools exist in the territory.
    Mr. Maudling: As the responsibility of the Northern Rhodesia Government for education is confined to African education other than higher education, the question of racial discrimination in the Government schools does not arise. The aim of that Government is universal primary education as resources permit. All tuition is free. There is one private multi-racial school.
    Mr. Swingler: Will the Colonial Secretary enter into consultations with the Governor of Northern Rhodesia
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    with a view to seeing that a multi-racial policy in education is carried out in Northern Rhodesia? In view of the fact that his responsibilities are limited, will he consult with other education authorities responsible for other sections of education in Northern Rhodesia to try to negotiate an agreement for a multiracial policy?
    Mr. Maudling: I think the hon. Member has forgotten the drift of my original reply, which was that the Northern Rhodesian Government are responsible for the African education. Therefore, the point about multi-racialism does not arise.
    Mr. Swingler: Precisely because of that, will the right hon. Gentleman negotiate with both the Northern Rhodesian and the Federal Government to try to arrive at an agreement for a non-discriminatory policy in education in Northern Rhodesia?
    Mr. Maudling: I think that raises much wider questions than the general policies of the Federal and territorial Governments.
    Mr. G. M. Thomson: Is not the situation in which European education is the responsibility of the Federal Government and African education is the responsibility of the territorial Government discriminatory and an offence against this Convention?
    Mr. Maudling: I am not so sure on that point. I think that if one examines the facts one finds that African education has been extremely well advanced in these territories.

    Elections
    Mr. Wallasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies how long it will take to demarcate constituencies and prepare for a general election in Northern Rhodesia; and what political parties have indicated their intention of taking part.
    Mr. Maudling: Before constituencies can be delimited it is necessary for registration to be completed. This will be undertaken without delay, and I hope that all processes can be completed for an election this autumn. From reports which I have received, it would appear

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    that the political parties generally propose to contest the elections, subject, in the case of the U.N.I.P., to certain conditions.
    Mr. Wall: It is very satisfactory that all political parties intend so far as they can to contest the election, but, since it took over twelve months to work out the constituencies in Nyasaland, does not my right hon. Friend think that he may be a little optimistic about the date? In any case, is not nine months a long time when events in Central Africa will be moving very fast, and would it not be wiser to get on with the Federal Review as soon as possible, not waiting for the election?
    Mr. Maudling: The subject of the Federal Review is rather wide of this Question, I think. I may be optimistic in my estimate of dates. It is the best I can make, and I shall do my best to keep to it.
    Mr. Healey: Is the Minister aware that most of us on this side of the House regard two years after the Monckton Report recommended that there should be an African majority Government in Northern Rhodesia as a very long time, and will he do what he can to shorten the period before the elections are held?
    Mr. Maudling: I will make it as short as I can, but there is a good deal of necessary work to be done before elections can be held.
    Mr. Stonehouseasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies when he is arranging the election in Northern Rhodesia; how he is delineating the constituencies; and what steps he is taking to ensure a fair election in view of threats of unconstitutional action by the United Federal Party.
    Mr. Healeyasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies when it is proposed to hold the elections in Northern Rhodesia.
    Mr. Maudling: As I have said, I hope that the elections will be held in the autumn. Delimitation of the constituencies will be a matter for an independent Commission. I am not aware of any threats of unconstitutional action, but I am satisfied that the Governor will take whatever measures are necessary to ensure a fair election.
    Mr. Stonehouse: Why do we have to wait until October for the election? Cannot it be speeded up, particularly in view of the fact that the Federal elections are now to be held within a few weeks? Are the major parties, like U.F.P., being consulted about the drawing-up of constituencies?
    Mr. Maudling: In reply to an earlier question, I think I said that before we can have an election we have to have constituencies and a register and that that will take a good deal of time.
    Mr. Healey: Is it not the case that the proposal for an election, at least along those lines, has been published for six months or so and that the only question at issue has been the precise way in which the franchise will be distributed? In that case, why has there not been some preparation made for this? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that he can have no discussions, as he himself admitted, on the future of the Federation until there has been an election in Northern Rhodesia? Is it not very urgent indeed to have this election, in view of the fact that Sir Roy Welensky intends to have what The Times called a "provocative and dangerous tribal war dance" in the Federation next month?
    Mr. Maudling: Before one can proceed with a register one must know who are the people to be qualified as electors and how many constituencies there are to be. None of these facts could have been settled until the announcement which I made recently. Therefore, it has not been possible to go ahead with the appointing of an independent commission.
    Mr. Stonehouse: In view of the angry noises made by the U.F.P., will the right hon. Gentleman give a guarantee that he will continue to be directly responsible for law and order between now and the time the elections take place?
    Mr. Maudling: I am not answerable for angry noises from any source, but Her Majesty's Government do not intend to dispose of any of their responsibilities in the Federation.
    Mr. A. Roberts: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the U.F.P. has

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    threatened violence unless the proceedings went the right way for them in Northern Rhodesia?
    Mr. Maudling: There have been far too many threats from far too many quarters in Rhodesia in recent years, and I hope that they can now cease.
    Mr. D. Footasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the Government of Northern Rhodesia propose to alter the law under which persons who have served prison sentences are ineligible for election to the Legislative Council.
    Mr. Maudling: This matter is under consideration.
    Mr. Foot: Does the Minister appreciate that under the present state of the law, anyone who serves a six months' sentence, even for political offences, is disqualified from elections for five years? Is not that quite indefensible in any case and at any time?
    Mr. Maudling: That is one of the matters that is being considered.
    Mr. S. Silverman: Would the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind when he is considering this matter further, as he has promised, that if this disqualification were to apply elsewhere, then many of our Colonies might lose their Prime Ministers and that we in this House would lose some of our distinguished Members?
    Mr. Maudling: That is a very interesting speculation, but whether it is relevant or not I am not sure.

  COLONIAL TERRITORIES

    United Nations Convention (Education)
    Mr. Swinglerasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether Her Majesty's Government have now ratified the United Nations Convention against discrimination in education and have fully applied its provisions to Colonial Territories.
    Mr. Maudling: As to the first part of the hon. Gentleman's Question, I have nothing to add to the reply given on the 21st February by my hon. Friend the Minister of State for Foreign Affairs to the hon. Members for Dundee, East (Mr. G. M. Thomson) and Eton and Slough
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    (Mr. Brockway). As regards application of the Convention to Colonial Territories, I am in consultation with the Governments concerned with a view to deciding whether its provisions should apply to them.
    Mr. Swingler: Can the Colonial Secretary say why Her Majesty's Government are dragging their feet about ratifying this Convention, which is against the colour bar in schools? Is he not against the colour bar in schools in the Colonies? Is it not his policy to eliminate discrimination as quickly as possible? Therefore, why will the Government not ratify this Convention and get on with the job?
    Mr. Maudling: We have expressed the hope that as many overseas territories as possible will accept the Convention, but it is not our practice—and never has been—to apply international conventions to overseas territories without prior consultation and agreement with the Governments of those territories.
    Mr. Swingler: Will the right hon. Gentleman take responsibility for saying that where his writ runs he will carry out the provisions of the Convention wherever it is in his power in education to do so?
    Mr. Maudling: It has been made quite clear that where legislation of an administrative kind on the part of overseas Governments is concerned it is not our practice—it is wise that we should act in this way—to take action without prior consultation and agreement with the Governments concerned.

  KENYA

    Constitutional Conference
    Mr. Hector Hughesasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will now make a statement in detail of the problems discussed and decisions reached at the recent Kenya Constitutional Conference.
    Mr. Maudling: The position remains as indicated in my reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Haltemprice (Mr. Wall) and the hon. Member for Eton and Slough (Mr. Brockway) on 6th March.
    Mr. Hughes: Has the Minister realised that a great many of the frustrations which have occurred at this conference arose from the fact that the conferees entered the conference with rigid preconceptions and insisted upon them instead of tackling the relevant problems in the true spirit of conference?
    Mr. Maudling: I think there is a great deal in what the hon. and learned Member has said. We are hoping to get a more forthcoming spirit in the conference and we think that is developing.

    Ex-Colonial Civil Servants (Pensions)
    Mr. Tilneyasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies how many ex-members of the Colonial Service or Her Majesty's Overseas Civil Service are receiving pensions from the Government of Kenya; and how many of these are receiving increases less than those received under the Pensions (Increase) Act, 1959, of the United Kingdom.
    Mr. Maudling: I have asked the Acting Governor for further information and will write to my hon. Friend as soon as I have it.
    Mr. Tilney: Is it not surprising that the figures have been supplied to me from the Crown Agent and that my right hon. Friend does not know?
    Mr. Maudling: I am not sure that I have been completely caught out this time. I hope to prove that I have not been.
    Dame Irene Ward: Does this pleasant rather late co-operation betoken a change of heart after Lord Boyd's speech in another place?
    Mr. Maudling: I do not quite follow the drift of my hon. Friend's question, but if there is ever a change of heart I am sure that it is for the better. I am not quite sure what she is referring to.

  WEST INDIES

    Discussions
    Mr. Fisherasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether, following the visit of the official delegation from the Federal Parliament of the West Indies, he will make a further statement with regard to the future of the West Indies.
    Mr. G. M. Thomsonasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will make a statement on his discussions with the Prime Minister of the Federation of the West Indies.
    Mr. Sorensenasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will make a statement on his discussions with Sir Grantley Adams and others in respect of a future federation of the West Indies and of the smaller islands.
    Mr. Maudling: I received the Prime Minister of the Federation of The West Indies and the Parliamentary delegation. They expressed their disagreement with the policy of Her Majesty's Government but no new reason was advanced for varying the decision I announced to the House on 6th February, which itself was taken after consultation with the Federal Government.
    Mr. Fisher: Will my right hon. Friend indicate to the House if it is his policy to encourage the federation of the remaining eight islands of the Eastern Caribbean as they themselves apparently wish? If so, what financial assistance are Her Majesty's Government prepared to provide to help them? Could he also inform the House what his arrangements are for the Federal civil servants who have lost their employment prospects through no fault of their own?
    Mr. Maudling: On the first point, I am awaiting the report of a conference of the eight island Governments, which I expect to receive very soon, and then I shall go into it very urgently. On the second point, I think all concerned have a very serious responsibility to the Federal civil servants, and ways and means of meeting that are being considered.
    Mr. Sorensen: Will the right hon. Gentleman say if he does not appreciate that there is a real demand for some kind of association or federation of what are called the "Little Eight"? Dr. Arthur Lewis has given a provisional estimate of the cost of making the area viable. If such an idea is not adopted, is the Minister contemplating the turning back of these Colonies to purely colonial status?
    Mr. Maudling: We regard this idea of the "Little Eight" as a promising development, but we are awaiting more

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    detailed studies which are to be made. Professor Lewis is engaged on the financial implications.
    Mr. Thomson: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the relations with the Federal Government: seem to have been muddled and mishandled in a way which is certain to give the impression of discourtesy? Was it not rather shabby to introduce the West Indies Bill to the House of Lords in the very week when the Federal Government delegation was here and in advance of an interview with the Federal Prime Minister? Is it conceivable that if Dr. Banda had wanted to secede from the Central African Federation the same treatment would have been accorded to Sir Roy Welensky? Will the right hon. Gentleman ensure that the official Federal delegation, apart from the secession of Jamaica, shall be given adequate time for consultation about alternative arrangements for the rest of the area?
    Mr. Maudling: I cannot accept that at all. When I was in Port of Spain I discussed with the Federal Government and explained in great detail what I proposed to do and the timing of it. Subsequently they decided to send a delegation to this country to express opposition to Her Majesty's Government, but that was not without having been forewarned of what we proposed to do and not without consultation.
    Sir C. Osborne: Could my right hon. Friend confirm that the Federation broke down because Jamaica was not prepared to share its relative wealth with the poorer islands and that it had nothing to do with Her Majesty's Government here at home?
    Mr. Maudling: I do not want to go into the causes or to assign blame for this, but when I was in Port of Spain earlier this year every single island Government agreed that the existing Federation must be dissolved and new arrangements made.

  ADEN

    Strikes
    Mrs. Hartasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what steps he is taking to deal with the present industrial unrest in Aden.
    Mr. Maudling: I do not accept that a situation amounting to industrial unrest exists in Aden.
    Mrs. Hart: Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that Aden was on the brink of a general strike, and does he not know that two trade unionists are serving long prison sentences because of the part they were playing in organising the trade unions there? Would not a general strike constitute industrial unrest, and what does he propose to do about it?
    Mr. Maudling: A general strike would constitute industrial unrest, but the figures I have show that whereas in 1959 and the first half of 1960 there were 118 strikes, in the whole of 1961 there were only three. We should not, I think, exaggerate.
    Mr. Sorensen: Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that the great diminution in the number of strikes was due to the ordinance which he had passed prohibiting strikes? In the circumstances, would it not have been better to make that quite clear with reference to the causes and the extent of industrial difficulties which exist in Aden at present?
    Mr. Maudling: The effect of the ordinance was that although there were 99 industrial disputes last year 96 were settled by the machinery envisaged in the industrial relations ordinance. It has been very successful.

  SOLOMON ISLANDS

    Harmful Magic (Prosecution)
    Mr. Dugdaleasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies why a man in the Solomon Islands was recently sentenced to one month's imprisonment for being in possession of two pieces of magic wild ginger.
    Mr. Maudling: He pleaded guilty to an offence under the Preservation of Order Regulation, the relevant section of which provides that "any person who has in his possession, without lawful excuse, an article normally associated in native minds with harmful magic shall be guilty of an offence". The maximum penalty for such an offence is imprisonment for six months or a fine of £20.
    Mr. Dugdale: Since the Minister is himself responsible, with previous Ministers, for such legislation, does that mean that he and other Ministers believe in the magic properties of this ginger? Further, since the laws are based on laws of the United Kingdom, if any hon. Member were to be in possession of it would he be liable to go to prison in this country?
    Mr. Maudling: I do not think that that would apply. I understand that among the Solomon Islanders wild ginger is a well recognised instrument of sorcery in the seduction of women.

  SEYCHELLES

    Airfield
    Mr. H. Clarkasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what steps are being taken to construct an aerodrome on the Seychelles up to full international standard.
    Mr. Maudling: A reconnaissance survey team visited Seychelles last year to examine possible sites for an airfield and its report is awaited.
    Mr. Clark: May I thank my right hon. Friend for that reply and recommend to him that improvement of communications would probably be the key to the future of this almost "Cinderella" group of islands, the Seychelles?

    Budget Proposals
    Mr. G. M. Thomsonasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what steps he is taking about the Budget proposals for the Seychelles, following the unanimous vote of the unofficial members of the Legislative Council against them.
    Mr. Maudling: I am satisfied that the Budget proposals are sound and that the Governor was entirely correct in using his casting vote in favour of the Appropriation Bill as a matter of urgency. I, therefore, do not propose to intervene.
    Mr. Thomson: Is it not the constitutional position that, when the unofficial members of the Legislative Council are unanimous, the Governor may not use his vote without the consent of the Secretary of State for the Colonies? Has the right hon. Gentleman given that
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    consent? Will he put in the Library the Budget proposals so that we may make up our minds about them?
    Mr. Maudling: I will put in the Library all the information I can. I have satisfied myself that the Governor's action is entirely in accordance with constitutional practice and with the undertakings given in the past.

  MALTA

    Constitution
    Mr. Wallasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what constitutional proposals he has received from the new Government of Malta.
    Mr. Awberyasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies when he received a request from the new Prime Minister of Malta for independence for the island; and what was his reply.
    Mr. Maudling: I have received no constitutional proposals from the new Government as yet, but before taking office Dr. Borg Olivier made it clear that he will wish to raise certain questions with me.
    Mr. Wall: Does my right hon. Friend agree that there is a large body of people in the island holding the opinion that they would not want to enjoy a lesser status in the Commonwealth than that accorded to Cyprus, and will he agree that once the problems of viability and defence have been solved there is no reason why Malta should not be an independent State within the Commonwealth?
    Mr. Maudling: I am looking forward to an early meeting with the new Prime Minister of Malta. I do not think that I should comment on any particular issue before then.
    Mr. Awbery: Is the Colonial Secretary aware that the Prime Minister declared some time ago that the present constitution is unworkable, that he represents 50 per cent. of the electorate and that the Labour Party represents 30 per cent., all that 80 per cent. being in favour of independence and freedom? Will he now say that he is prepared to give these people freedom at a specific date and not make a general and vague statement?
    Mr. Maudling: No, Sir; I do not think that I can make a statement to that effect today.

    Elections
    Mr. Awberyasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what complaints he has received concerning irregularities during the recent general election in Malta; what inquiries are being made; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Maudling: Two days before the elections the Governor received certain written representations from the Malta Labour Party, which he discussed with a delegation from the Party on the same day. The delegation was unable to produce direct evidence in support of their allegations. No further complaints have been received.
    Mr. Awbery: Is the Minister aware that the whole of the Maltese Press and the foreign Press of the world was full of the irregularities taking place during this election, and, in view of the statement made to him in a memorandum from the Labour Party of Malta and amplified to the Governor, will he now hold an inquiry into the whole position? The right hon. Gentleman was asked to send someone down there during the period of the election and he refused to do it. Will he now hold an inquiry into the allegations that have been made?
    Mr. Maudling: No. I do not think there is any substance in that. The Governor has discussed the representations received from the Malta Labour Party, and my own impression is that the authorities in Malta did a very good job in conducting the election.

  EAST AFRICA

    Ex-Colonial Civil Servants (Pensions)
    Mr. Tilneyasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies how many ex-members of the Colonial Service or Her Majesty's Overseas Civil Service are receiving pensions from the East Africa High Commission; and how many of these are receiving increases less than those received under the Pensions (Increase) Act, 1959, of the United Kingdom.
    Mr. Maudling: As my information is incomplete, I have asked the Secretary-General for further information and will write to my hon. Friend as soon as I have it.

  ANTARCTICA

    Antarctic Treaty
    Mr. Sorensenasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what is the extent and assumed economic or other value of the Antarctic area now formally deemed a British Colony; whether it will have any permanent human settlement; and what agreements have been reached with other Governments in respect of the peaceful use of British territory and the whole Antarctic region.
    Mr. Maudling: The new British Antarctic Territory, which was formerly part of the Colony of the Falkland Islands and Dependencies, consists of the land and islands lying south of latitude 60° South and between 20° and 80° of longitude West. No minerals of economic importance have yet been found, but the territory is valuable as a site for scientific work. I do not expect that there will be permanent habitation in the foreseeable future though there are several permanent research stations in the territory.
    The Antarctic Treaty to which the United Kingdom is a party came into force on 23rd June, 1961. Article 1 of that Treaty provides that Antarctica should be used for peaceful purposes.
    Her Majesty's Government accepted all the recommendations made at the first Consultative Meeting of Antarctic Treaty Powers held in Canberra last year. I will place a copy of the report in the Library of the House.
    Mr. Sorensen: Can the right hon. Gentleman say how many people are living in this area? Secondly, is it not almost grotesque that, having divested ourselves of a colonial empire, we should now, apparently, be trying to compensate ourselves by acquiring this waste land? Has not the right hon. Gentleman considered the possibility of the whole Antarctic area being placed under some kind of international supervision rather than being divided up into colonies?
    Mr. Maudling: There is some misunderstanding here. We are not in any way seeking to extend our territory but to rename and divide a particular part of it, the reason being that our Antarctic territory bore previously a name derived from the disputed area outside the Treaty area. We thought it better to change it in the interests of general agreement and working together in the area.
    Mr. Snow: Would not this be a suitable governship for Sir Roy Welensky?

  CENTRAL AFRICA

    Mr. Greenfield (Talks)
    Mr. Healeyasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will make a statement on his official talks with the Minister of Law of the Central African Federation.
    Mr. Maudling: Mr. Greenfield was present when my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations and I met Sir Roy Welensky and Sir Edgar Whitehead on 1st March; but, apart from this, I have had no official talks with him.
    Mr. Healey: In view of the fact that the Colonial Secretary admitted earlier in answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn (Mrs. Castle) that he did not know whether or not Mr. Greenfield's threat to adopt unconstitutional action on hard lines to preserve the Federation were authentic or not, may I ask him why he did not take this opportunity to ask Mr. Greenfield himself, in view of the fact that he occupies, ironically enough, the position of Minister of Law in the Federation, and has, presumably, taken an oath of loyalty to the Queen?
    Mr. Maudling: I have the impression that the report in question appeared in the Press after I saw Mr. Greenfield.
    Mr. Healey: With respect, the report in question was referred to in this House by my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, South-East (Mr. Callaghan) a week after the conference took place.
    Mr. Maudling: The report I have been referring to was the one in the Guardian of 6th March and, as I said, I saw Mr. Greenfield on 1st March.

  NORTHERN RHODESIA AND NYASALAND

    Federal Troops
    Mr. Stonehouseasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will now strengthen the police forces of Northern Rhodesia and Nyasaland and advise the Governors of both Protectorates not to invite Federal troops into the territories, in view of the danger that the use of these troops will provoke disorder and violence.
    Mr. Maudling: I am satisfied about the strength and capability of the Police forces in both Territories. The second part of the Question relates to a hypothetical situation.
    Mr. Stonehouse: Surely, if the Colonial Secretary is to be consistent with the answer given to my second supplementary question on Question No. 25, he will be quite firm that Federal troops will not be asked into Northern Rhodesia or Nyasaland? Is he not aware of the extreme danger that would result if Sir Roy Welensky's troops went into these two Protectorates?
    Mr. Maudling: The Federal Government are responsible for defence and have the right to station troops anywhere in the Federation. The use of troops in support of the civil power is only at the request of the Governor.
    Mr. Healey: While we all welcome that assurance by the Colonial Secretary, may I ask him if he will now take steps to make inquiries into the authenticity of the reports that Mr. Greenfield and the U.F.P. threatened unconstitutional action?
    Mr Maudling: I do not regard that as being the view of the United Federal Party or the Prime Minister.
    Mrs. Castle: Ought not the right hon. Gentleman to inquire into this matter more closely, in view of the fact that, at the emergency congress already referred to, it was decided to make a request to the Federal Government to keep as many Federal troops in Northern Rhodesia as possible in order to show the flag? Is not this the direct use of Federal troops for political intimidation?
    Mr. Maudling: I do not think so. I have already said that Federal troops

    1111
    are for defence purposes and must remain the responsibility of the Federal Government.

  MINISTRY OF WORKS

    Horse Guards Parade (Car Parking)
    Sir J. Langford-Holtasked the Minister of Works which persons are authorised to park their cars on the Horse Guards Parade, and under what circumstances.
    The Minister of Works (Lord John Hope): A limited number of the occupants of the surrounding buildings and of visitors to them, are authorised to park on the edges of the Parade when it is not required for ceremonial purposes. The selection of those to whom permits are issued is the responsibility of the Departments concerned.
    Sir J. Langford-Holt: Will not my right hon. Friend agree that the Horse Guards Parade is not in any sense an adjunct to any of these Departments which surround it, and that the result has been that we have a parade pockmarked with over 100 cars stretching 40 or 50 yards into the middle of the parade ground, and if this is a suitable place for parking 100 cars should it not be a case of "first come, first served"?
    Lord John Hope: I do not think I could accept my hon. Friend's statement that this cannot be said to be an adjunct to the Departments concerned. It borders on them.
    Sir J. Langford-Holt: It may be bordering on them, but is it not a fact that it is not an adjunct to the Departments in the sense that the courtyard of the Foreign Office is an adjunct of the Foreign Office or that Downing Street is an adjunct to these Departments, in so far as they are not public thoroughfares?
    Lord John Hope: I think it is a very near thing.
    Mr. Snow: Is the Minister aware that the police always say that any space outside a hereditament or building is perfectly free for parking of the public unless there are ceremonial parades? If at a special time like Christmas this whole area can be used for parking cars, would it not be a more sensible arrangement
    1112
    merely to give notice that the parade ground is needed for ceremonial purposes?
    Lord John Hope: I do not think so. So far as special periods like Christmas are concerned, I try to help as far as I can with the properties which come under my control, whatever the precedents may be.

    Quantity Surveyors
    Mr. G. Thomasasked the Minister of Works how many men are involved in the abolition of the post of Grade IV quantity surveyor's assistant in his Department; how many of these men have been in Government service for fifteen years or longer; and what steps he is taking for their alternative employment.
    Lord John Hope: Seven quantity surveying assistants, Grade IV, have been declared redundant in the Ministry of Works as part of current staff reductions; this comprises the total staff in that grade. Only one of these has been in Government service for fifteen years or longer. I have had inquiries made of local authorities and other Government Departments in an attempt to find them alternative employment. So far two offers of employment have been made, and others are in prospect.
    Mr. Thomas: Is the Minister aware that the one to whom he refers is a constituent of mine; that he has worked for Government Departments for over twenty years and that now that he is over 50 years old it is a pretty shabby trick simply to shake him off as though the Government have no obligation to him? That is what is happening now. Will the Minister look into the matter again and see that this competent person is provided with some alternative employment?
    Lord John Hope: I hope that the hon. Member has had a letter with regard to his constituent—
    Mr. Thomas: A very unsatisfactory one.
    Lord John Hope: It may be unsatisfactory, but it is the truth. We have done all we can to help this man. I am advised that he will not be prejudiced in his chances of future employment. We have done a great deal for him.

    Whitehall Banqueting Hall
    Mr. Parkerasked the Minister of Works when the removal of exhibits from the Whitehall Banqueting Hall will be completed.
    Lord John Hope: The disposal of the exhibits is a matter for the Royal United Service Institution, which is considering what should be done. I am sure that there will be no undue delay.

    Abingdon Street (Open Space)
    Mr. Parkerasked the Minister of Works when the open space opposite the Victoria Tower and in front of the Abbey Walls is to be filled in and laid out.
    Lord John Hope: The Westminster City Council is preparing plans for the construction of an underground garage on this site. My plans for the treatment of the surface are being developed at the same time. I hope shortly to be able to inform the House how and when it is proposed to deal with this most important area.

    No. 10 Downing Street
    Sir S. Storeyasked the Minister of Works what steps he has taken to ensure that home-grown timber is used in the rebuilding of No. 10 Downing Street.
    Lord John Hope: None, Sir. In view of the special requirements at No. 10 Downing Street I have thought it inadvisable to limit the architect's choice, but I understand that home-grown oak is being used to replace oak floors.
    Sir S. Storey: Is my right hon. Friend aware of the great need to encourage the growing of home-grown timber? Does not he think that it would be well worth his Department's while to encourage growers by specifying the use of home-grown timber wherever possible?
    Lord John Hope: The operative words are the last used by my hon. Friend, namely, "wherever possible". If that means "wherever wise" I quite agree, but I do not think it would be right to go beyond it.
    Mr. Lipton: Whatever timber is used, is the Minister taking steps to ensure that it is adequately treated with creosote or some anti-dry-rot mixture?
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    We have had an awful lot of dry-rot in No. 10 Downing Street in recent years.
    Lord John Hope: I shall do my best to see that the new structure lasts for a very long time.

  WIRELESS AND TELEVISION

    Independent Television (Programmes)
    Mr. Loughlinasked the Postmaster-General if in view of the poor quality of entertainment programmes now transmitted by the Independent Television companies, he will take powers to ensure an improvement of such programmes.
    The Assistant Postmaster-General (Miss Mervyn Pike): No, Sir. Under the Television Act it is the duty of the I.T.A. to satisfy itself that so far as possible its programmes maintain a proper balance in their subject matter and a high general standard of quality. The Authority assures my right hon. Friend that the provisions of the Act are being complied with.
    Mr. Loughlin: Has the right hon. Gentleman satisfied himself that the Authority is carrying out its responsibilities? Is the Minister not aware that too many old films are being used for the sole purpose of aiding the companies in their fight with Equity? Will not the Minister have a very close look at the position in order to save himself from being exposed to the charge of strikebreaking? Will not he take the necessary powers to see that his Department is not used in that way?
    Miss Pike: Is is the duty of the Authority and not of my right hon. Friend to see that a correct balance is kept. We all admit that the entertainment value of these films is a matter of personal judgment. Ultimately, the viewer is the final arbiter, and he has the choice of turning to the alternative programme.
    Mr. Mason: Is not the hon. Lady aware that some of these I.T.A. programmes—especially under regional contractors—are rapidly becoming a bore solely because they consist of repeated Westerns and old films? If her Department is not prepared to do anything about it, will not she consult the Television Advisory Committee in order to see what its observations are?
    Miss Pike: I can assure the hon. Member that we watch these things very carefully indeed.

    Reception, North Antrim
    Mr. H. Clarkasked the Postmaster-General what plans he has for improved television reception along the north Antrim coast, and particularly at Ballycastle.
    Miss Pike: Both the B.B.C. and the I.T.A. are well aware of the poor reception conditions in Ballycastle and other places on the North Antrim coast, and have the area in mind in their planning of future stations.
    Mr. Clark: Will my hon. Friend please encourage the B.B.C. to give the highest priority to its service in this area? The North Antrim coast is a well-known resort and visitors are being driven away by the impossibly bad television reception there.
    Miss Pike: I am sure that the B.B.C. will take note of what my hon. Friend has said.

    Advertisements (Smoking)
    Mr. Frank Allaunasked the Postmaster-General, in view of the danger to health involved in cigarette smoking, recent evidence of which is contained in the Report of the Royal College of Physicians, a copy of which has been sent to him, if he will take steps to amend the Second Schedule to the Television Act, 1954, to deal with cigarette advertising.
    Miss Pike: As mentioned yesterday by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health, the Government are studying the measures recommended in the Report of the Royal College of Physicians which include restriction of tobacco advertising. My right hon. Friend cannot make any statement at this stage with regard to such advertising on television.
    Mr. Allaun: But has not the hon. Lady herself observed the linking of romance, sex appeal and cigarette smoking in a deliberate appeal to young people on this the most powerful medium for influencing ideas the world has ever known? Should not the Government at least implement this part of the Royal College's Report by completely banning cigarette advertising on television?
    Miss Pike: We all have this problem very much in mind, but my right hon. Friend cannot make any further statement at the present time.
    Mr. Lipton: Can we have an early statement from the Postmaster-General on this aspect? Is it not rather silly to send out circulars to local authorities begging them to take action while at the same time the television programmes are counteracting the effect of those circulars?
    Miss Pike: My right hon. Friend is looking at this matter with the greatest urgency.
    Mr. Woodburn: Will the hon. Lady represent to the I.T.A. that it might try to find actors who are capable of acting on television without continually having cigarettes in their mouths, or bottles or glasses in their hands?
    Miss Pike: I am sure that the Authority will take note of the right hon. Gentleman's remarks.

  SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (TITLE)
  Mr. Woodburnasked the Prime Minister whether, for greater accuracy and in order to make clear that United Kingdom policy is non-aggressive, he will substitute for the title of Secretary of State for War the title of Secretary of State for the Army.
  The Prime Minister (Mr. Harold Macmillan): I agree that the title "Secretary of State for War" is an anachronism, but I do not believe that it gives rise to any serious misunderstandings either here or overseas.
  Mr. Woodburn: In view of the fact that the word "war" in some way implies aggression and that we have now adopted the word "defence" to show that we mean no aggression—and in any case since the Secretary of State for War is really the Secretary of State for the Army—would it not be wise to make this description more accurate so that it complies with present conditions?
  The Prime Minister: It would be convenient at a convenient moment, but legislation is necessary and I hardly think that it is justified.
  Mr. Driberg: In view of some of the exchanges in this House in the past week and the general opinion—expressed by the Government also—that there is no actual defence against nuclear attack, would the right hon. Gentleman consider substituting for the title of "Minister of Defence" the title of "Minister of Retaliation"?

  DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER
  Mr. Emrys Hughesasked the Prime Minister if he will appoint a Minister to the post of official Deputy Prime Minister.
  The Prime Minister: No, Sir. As far as I know, the office of Deputy Prime Minister is not a formally recognised office under our Constitution. Nevertheless, my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary not only gives me special assistance over a wide range of public duties but presides over the Cabinet in my absence.
  Mr. Hughes: Can the Prime Minister tell us what consideration made him appoint the Home Secretary before the Leader of the House or the Chancellor of the Exchequer?
  The Prime Minister: I have explained that this is not an appointment which is recommended. All appointments are made by the Crown on the recommendation of Ministers. So far as I know, under our Constitution there is no provision for an appointment of Deputy Prime Minister to be made by the Crown.

  CABINET MINISTERS
  Mr. Donnellyasked the Prime Minister whether he will now extend his policy of alleviating the burdens of Ministers by appointing two Cabinet Ministers in certain Departments and appoint an assistant Prime Minister and First Lord of the Treasury to assist him in his duties.
  The Prime Minister: I am glad that the hon. Member has now come to see the value of certain dispositions which I have made, but I hope that, being a new convert, he will beware of the dangers of excessive zeal.
  Mr. Donnelly: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that he should not be so defensive about our kindly thoughts on his behalf? I am not really a convert at all. If he thinks that two Cabinet Ministers sitting in Admiralty House is not a good idea, can he say why two Ministers sitting in great Offices of State like the Treasury or the Foreign Office is such a good idea?
  The Prime Minister: I have explained that under the dispositions we made in the autumn I was able to make this arrangement by using an office that was at my disposal—that of Paymaster-General. As for the Deputy Prime Minister, as I have already pointed out there is no such post for recommendation to the Crown.
  Mr. Wade: Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind Parkinson's Law?
  The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir. He and his friends have kept it in mind very carefully.

  SUMMIT CONFERENCE
  Mr. A. Hendersonasked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the recently expressed misgivings of Mr. Khrushchev, he will now give an assurance that Her Majesty's Government will seek to arrange a summit conference before any resumption of atmospheric testing.
  The Prime Minister: The essential need is for an agreement on the banning of nuclear tests. I hope that the negotiations now taking place in Geneva will show us the way towards such an agreement. As I said in my message to Mr. Khrushchev on 6th March, I am ready to go to Geneva at any stage when it appears that such action can be of positive value.
  Mr. Henderson: Can we be assured that in the event of the Geneva negotiations proceeding satisfactorily successful results will not be jeopardised by a resumption of atmospheric tests on Christmas Island or anywhere else?
  The Prime Minister: The President has said that the tests will not begin until well after the beginning of the coming meetings at Geneva, and this will provide a real opportunity to see whether the Russians are ready to negotiate seriously.
  Mr. Gaitskell: Will the Prime Minister make a little clearer his views of the circumstances in which a summit conference might be valuable? Is it not the case that in addition to the idea that the summit conference would put the seal upon any agreement which was reached between the Foreign Ministers it might also be extremely important to prevent a complete breakdown in the negotiations?
  The Prime Minister: That is a point to which I did refer in my letter to Mr. Khrushchev.
  Mr. Allaun: Since atmospheric tests can already be detected by existing means, why could not agreement now be reached to the extent of accepting the ending of tests which are able to be detected by existing national means?
  The Prime Minister: My own view is that it should be possible to reach full agreement on the whole problem. If there is serious negotiation, I am sure that both the President and I would wish to take full advantage of that.
  Mr. P. Noel-Baker: The Prime Minister has said that he is taking personal responsibility for our share in the disarmament committee, and we all welcome that statement. Does he think, however, that he can do that in any significant sense unless he takes part in the Committee's deliberations at an early stage and revisits it from time to time?
  The Prime Minister: What I have tried to say represents the facts. The conference is just about to open, and it has been generally agreed that it should not be attended by Heads of Government at the opening stage.

  NUCLEAR TESTS
  Mr. M. Footasked the Prime Minister what is the number of nuclear tests which he has agreed with the United States President will be conducted at Christmas Island; and what is the total amount of fall-out which it is estimated will result from this test series.
  The Prime Minister: I am not prepared to disclose the details of the test programme; but the scale of the tests will be as limited as possible. As President Kennedy has said, they will be
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  within limits that restrict the fall-out to an absolute minimum.
  Mr. Foot: Are we to take it from the reply to the first part of my Question that the right hon. Gentleman does not know the number or that he will not tell? On the second part of the Question concerning the scale of the fall-out, even though the right hon. Gentleman says that it will be limited to the minimum, can he tell the House and the country the calculation made by the British and American Governments of the genetic effects of this series of tests? Exactly what calculations have been made in advance?
  The Prime Minister: I see no reason at this stage why we should publish the programme of tests. The Russians did not do so with theirs. President Kennedy has made it clear that there will be the minimum possible fall-out, and that it is not expected to add seriously to any of the dangers to which the hon. Gentleman refers.
  Mr. Foot: When the right hon. Gentleman says that he is not publishing the number of tests because the Russians would not reveal the number of theirs, are we to understand that the British and American Governments model themselves on the Russian Government in this matter? As the number of tests obviously affects the whole question as to whether the nation should approve of them or not, why does not the British Government make an effort to tell the public the truth about what is happening? Has not the public the right to know the facts so that it can judge for itself?
  The Prime Minister: It would be unwise and quite wrong at this moment to publish the programme, which is not actually completely fixed at the moment.
  Dr. Stross: Does the right hon. Gentleman remember that a few years ago it was accepted by our scientists that for every megaton of explosion we must expect approximately within a generation a thousand extra deaths from cancer of the bone and about a thousand extra deaths from leukemia? As well as the evil genetic effects of these explosions, will the right hon. Gentleman bear that factor in mind?
  The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir. I would not accept the figures quoted by the hon. Gentleman and would like a specific question about them, since I do not carry them in my head. But I think he will remember that the general conclusion after the first alarm about milk, following the latest massive Russian tests, was rather reassuring.

  DISARMAMENT
  Mr. Spriggsasked the Prime Minister if he will convey in his next letter to Mr. Khrushchev the wishes of the British people for a successful outcome of the proposed disarmament talks between the United Kingdom, the United States of America, the Soviet Union and all other nations interested in bringing the arms race to an end.
  The Prime Minister: I am sure that the whole House will be glad of this opportunity to express its wishes for a successful outcome of the Geneva Conference. I, for my part, am sending my noble Friend the Foreign Secretary a message of good wishes which he will convey to the Conference in his opening speech.
  Mr. Spriggs: Is the Prime Minister aware that he will take with him the good wishes of the British nation if he goes forward with a genuine attempt to bring about a disarmament agreement, but that if he uses this again as an election gimmick he will receive the condemnation of the British people?
  The Prime Minister: While I welcome the spirit in which the Question was put and also the first half of the supplementary question, I would very humbly say that I do not think that the hon. Gentleman has added by his closing remarks to the weight of the message he wanted to go from this House.

  POST OFFICE

    Shipping (Direction-finding Service)
    Mr. Brewisasked the Postmaster General (1) how many ships at sea have requested radio direction-finding bearings from Post Office coastal radio stations in the four months ended 31st January, 1962; and what action has been taken on such requests;
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    (2) what was the cost of providing radio-telegraphy direction-finding bearings to ships at sea in the year ended 30th September, 1961, or nearest convenient year.
    Miss Pike: The answer to the first Question is 17. The ships were informed that the direction-finding service at British Coast Stations ceased from 1st September, 1961, and that bearings could not be given. In three of the cases the ship requested the transmission of a signal enabling it to take a bearing on the Coast Station by means of its own direction-finding apparatus, and such signal was provided. The cost of providing bearings to ships at sea during the year ended 31st March, 1961, was £5,176.
    Mr. Brewis: Is my hon. Friend aware that £5,000 is a very small sum compared with the loss which might be sustained by one ship going aground? Is she further aware that when the "Princess Victoria" was lost in the Irish Sea her radar equipment was out of action, there were no other ships in the area, it was impossible for aircraft to fly, and that if these shore wireless stations had not been operating we should probably have lost the entire complement of the ship? Will she not look into this matter again?
    Miss Pike: As my hon. Friend probably knows, the cost of this service is borne by the Ministry of Transport, and responsibility for the safety of lives at sea is a question for the Minister of Transport.
    Mr. Hector Hughes: Does the hon. Lady realise that this system of direction finding is a most valuable scientific invention which may do much to save life at sea and shipping? Will she do everything possible to encourage its use?
    Miss Pike: We, of course, only act as agents in this matter.

  NATIONAL FINANCE

    Disarmament
    Mr. A. Hendersonasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether coordinated Government plans now exist for dealing with the economic consequences of general disarmament.
    The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Sir Edward Boyle): No, Sir. These consequences must depend on the conditions under which disarmament is put into effect. I do not think special plans are called for at this stage for a situation which might take many different forms. But one assumption which can safely be made is that any process of general and complete disarmament will be spread over a number of years and that there will be time to adjust the economy.
    Mr. Henderson: Since the United Nations has thought it fit and necessary to appoint an economic commission to investigate the economic and social consequences of disarmament, is it not equally necessary for Her Majesty's Government to apply their mind to the consequences which will flow in the event of a disarmament agreement being reached internationally?
    Sir E. Boyle: Of course, this is an important subject, and the first part of the report of the panel of experts appointed by the Acting Secretary-General has been published and is under consideration. But I can assure the hon. Gentleman that we in the United Kingdom do not expect any difficulty in finding useful outlets for resources released by disarmament or that the latter event could possibly cause unmanageable dislocation.
    Mr. H. Wilson: Many of us feel that this is a problem more easily soluble in this country than perhaps in others where there is a very heavy armaments expenditure and greater difficulty in mobilising resources for social purposes. Nevertheless, will the Financial Secretary give an undertaking that when the Government have completed their study of the United Nations Report they will seek an appropriate opportunity to make a statement in the House?
    Sir E. Boyle: I will, of course, bring what the right hon. Gentleman has just said to the notice of my right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I was glad to hear the first part of his supplementary question, with which I certainly very much agree.
    Sir C. Osborne: If, fortunately, we were to have complete and general dis-
    1124
    armament, would not it bring mass unemployment to the engineering industry? [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] Are plans being made to prevent that happening to this industry?
    Sir E. Boyle: I would ask my hon. Friend not to speak in those alarming terms. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] I repeat what I have already said to the House. We in this country do not expect any difficulty in finding useful outlets for resources which may be released by disarmament. I should have thought that the country which led the world in the Industrial Revolution and which is still one of the great trading nations could use these resources in very many other ways.
    Mr. P. Noel-Baker: In order to enlighten his hon. Friend the Member for Louth (Sir C. Osborne), will the Financial Secretary ensure that the United Nations Report is made available to hon. Members in the form of a White Paper?
    Sir E. Boyle: I am sure that my right hon. and learned Friend will consider that suggestion.

    NEW MEMBER SWORN
    Dick Taverne, esquire, for Lincoln.

COMPLAINT OF PRIVILEGE
Mr. Speaker: Yesterday, the hon. Member for Goole (Mr. Jeger) raised with me a complaint of breach of Privilege with regard to an article which appeared in last Sunday's Sunday Telegraph.
I have given very careful consideration to the hon. Member's complaint in the light of the precedents, and, in view of the opinion which I have formed, I think that I had better say as little as possible about the article.
It is my view that the article does not, prima facie, constitute a contempt of this House and does not, prima facie, involve a breach of any of its privileges.
That means that I cannot allow the hon. Member's complaint precedent over the Orders of the Day. But, of course,

1125
that has no effect on what the House might choose to do in the matter should it be raised on a substantive Motion.
Mr. Shinwell: On the point of order. Has it occurred to you, Mr. Speaker, that a claim of Privilege of this character, which introduces the names of other hon. Members, is rather an abuse of the procedure under which a claim of Privilege can be made? Has it not occurred to you, Sir, that that was the purpose of this claim of Privilege?
Mr. Speaker: I see no ground on which I could take the view that there was an abuse. If the right hon. Member desires to press the matter, he can take appropriate steps to do so.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE (SUPPLY)
Ordered,
That this day Business other than the Business of Supply may be taken before Ten o'clock.—[Mr. lain Macleod.]

MONOPOLIES DIVESTMENT
3.36 p.m.
Sir James Pitman: I beg to move,
That leave be given to bring in a Bill to give to the Board of Trade power to require a limited liability company to divest itself of shares in any wholly or partly-owned subsidiary or associated company where the Monopolies Commission have ruled that the ownership of such shares is monopolistic in character and harmful to the public interest.
The House, and particularly the country, little knows, I think, that the Board of Trade has no powers in respect of monopolies divestment. On 30th January, the President of the Board of Trade made a statement in the House, from which I quote:
"If the merger"—
that was, the I.C.I.-Courtaulds merger—
"takes place, and if it operates in such a way that it appears to me to be acting against the public interest, then I would immediately make a reference to the Monopolies Commission … If, after considering the report of the Monopolies Commission, the Government were to decide that it was necessary for them to intervene, they would ask Parliament for any additional powers that were required."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 30th January, 1962; Vol 652, c. 896.]
There are two things implicit in this statement. First, and it is common ground between all of us in the House, that there can be a national interest in monopolies of this kind. There may well be a company interest, but the national interest must, and shall, override it. Secondly, there is implicit in this statement that the Minister has no power to ensure that the national interest shall override the company interest. The Bill which I seek leave to introduce would give my right hon. Friend powers now rather than in the future. That is very important, because it enables the Bill to be general instead of particular. I cannot imagine anything more invidious for a company than to be the XY Company Ltd., the particular cause of a special Bill linked specially to it.
If the House wishes there to be powers to stop mergers in the correct circumstances, then I think that now is the time to introduce such powers and not to wait until later. Under the Bill, there would be three hurdles. First, the suspect monopoly has to be referred to the Monopolies Commission and found to be a monopoly. Secondly, the Commission

1127
must find that the monopoly is harmful to the public interest. Thirdly, it is within the discretion of the President of the Board of Trade and is not mandatory on him to require a divestment.
The Bill deals with three types of situation. First, the 90 per cent. to 100 per cent. wholly-owned shareholding—because if you obtain 90 per cent. you are able to enforce acquirement of the balance—which is the sort of ownership leading to integration which I.C.I. originally announced it was going for. Secondly, the 51 per cent. shareholding ownership which gives not integration, but an absolute voting control over policy and management in a "subsidiary" company. Thirdly, there is the sort of figure of, say, 37 per cent. of an "associated" company which gives a similar controlling interest if, but only if, the shares held by the other 63 per cent. are scattered among a great number of small and dissociated shareholders. In the case of British Aluminium we saw that 49 per cent. did not give control because Tube Investments had a 51 per cent. holding. Therefore, there is a vital distinction as to whether the 37 per cent. is the big fish when all the other fishes are little fishes, or whether there is an even bigger fish knocking about somewhere.
I am sure that all Members agree that all of those three considerations could well be present in a monopoly which might be harmful to the public interest and would be bad. In the present circumstances it is clear that a 37 per cent. holding may well give effective control to the board of I.C.I. In other words, the Courtaulds' directors, who have got to get through their report and accounts each year, must continually look over their shoulder at the 37 per cent. solid holding which will be cast in one single cast vote, and may well be, in effect, the single controlling force.
The three conditions are imposed on the Minister; that such shareholdings must be held to be a monopoly, that such monopoly must be harmful and that discretion shall be exercised by the right hon. Gentleman in the last resort. These are very far from arbitrary powers which I seek to give to the Board of Trade. That is one side of the story, but what about the liberties and rights
1128
of the shareholders? What does divestment mean? There are two types of this. Either a taking over company could be required by the President of the Board of Trade to sell or place its shares in the open market, or it could be required to distribute them pro rata to all its existing equity shareholders.
In the first place, the ordinary shareholders do not suffer, in the sense that there will have been no great change. As shareholders they will revert to the status quo ante. There will have been an additional amount of issued capital but they will have an additional amount of cash which the company will have received in respect of that additional amount of capital created and issued. On the other hand, in the second case—the distribution of shares to the equity share or stockholders—there will be a greater change and may well be a loss, but I submit that it will be no hardship on them if they will have known in advance where they stand.
First, they will own direct what they would otherwise have owned indirectly. As owners of the ordinary stock of the taking-over company they own as property the shares of the taken-over company and it is only right that they should own those shares directly rather than indirectly. Secondly, and this is very important, they can then cast their votes directly rather than indirectly. The essence of the 37 per cent. control is that a block vote can be cast solid and if an undertaking is given to the Board of Trade that such votes will not be so exercised one will have made absolute nonsense of the Companies Act and the control of shareholders over their boards of directors. It is far better that votes should not be thus artificially sterilized, but should be used for the very purposes for which such votes have been created.
I submit that it is a good thing that we should ensure in such cases, by a divestment which distributes the shares, that the property is owned direct and that the votes are cast direct. There is another argument in favour of this; the directors and shareholders of all potentially taking-over or being taken-over companies need a greater degree of certainty in their present situation. They are approached, or they wish to approach, another company for a takeover bid and I think that they should

1129
know what powers the Minister is to have and that is why I want it known now. He should have definite powers, immediate powers, but they should be general and, above all, sufficient.
Question put and agreed to.
Bill ordered to be brought in by Sir James Pitman, Sir John Vaughan-Morgan, Mr. Robert Carr, Mr. Geoffrey Hirst, and Mr. Julian Ridsdale.

MONOPOLIES DIVESTMENT
  MONOPOLIES DIVESTMENT
  Bill to give to the Board of Trade power to require a limited liability company to divest itself of shares in any wholly or partly-owned subsidiary or associated company where the Monopolies Commission have ruled that the ownership of such shares is monopolistic in character and harmful to the public interest, presented accordingly, and read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Friday, 23rd March, and to be printed. [Bill 78.]
ORDERS OF THE DAY

  SUPPLY
  [9TH ALLOTTED DAY]
  Considered in Committee.
  [Sir WILLIAM ANSTRUTHER-GRAY in the Chair]

  CIVIL ESTIMATES AND ESTIMATE FOR THE MINISTRY OF DEFENCE, 1962–63
  (VOTE ON ACCOUNT)
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  That a sum, not exceeding £1,445,371,503, be granted to Her Majesty, on account, for or towards defraying the charges for the following Civil Departments and for the Ministry of Defence for the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1963, viz.:—

  CIVIL ESTIMATES
  CLASS I

  £

  1. House of Lords

  89,000

  2. House of Commons

  550,000

  3. Treasury and Subordinate Departments

  1,500,000

  4. Privy Council Office

  16,000

  5. Post Office Ministers

  2,500

  6. Customs and Excise

  6,900,000

  7. Inland Revenue

  20,000,000

  8. Exchequer and Audit Department

  260,000

  9. Civil Service Commission

  225,000

  10. Royal Commissions, etc.

  170,000

  £

  5. Police, England and Wales

  21,678,000

  6. Police, Scotland

  137,000

  7. Prisons, England and Wales

  7,000,000

  8. Prisons, Scotland

  655,000

  9. Child Care, England and Wales

  1,491,000

  10. Child Care, Scotland

  187,000

  11. Supreme Court of Judicature, etc.

  500

  12. County Courts

  164,000

  13. Legal Aid Fund

  1,000,000

  14. Law Charges

  290,000

  15. Law Charges and Courts of Law, Scotland

  166,000

  16. Supreme Court of Judicature, etc., Northern Ireland

  30,000

  £

  10. Fisheries (Scotland) and Herring Industry

  950,000

  11. Forestry Commission

  4,000,000

  CLASS VIII

  £

  1. British Museum

  370,000

  2. British Museum (Natural History)

  200,000

  3. Science Museum

  118,000

  4. Victoria and Albert Museum

  195,000

  5. Imperial War Museum

  21,670

  6. London Museum

  18,000

  7. National Gallery

  160,000

  8. National Maritime Museum

  33,000

  9. National Portrait Gallery

  16,000

  10. Tate Gallery

  48,000

  11. Walllace Collection

  16,000

  12. Royal Scottish Museum

  46,000

  13. National Galleries of Scotland

  43,000

  14. National Library of Scotland

  40,333

  15. National Museum of Antiquities of Scotland

  12,000

  16. Grants for the Arts

  1,600,000

  3.40 p.m.
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Martin Redmayne): I beg to move, That the Chairman do report Progress and ask leave to sit again.
  Mr. John Peyton: On a point of order. This Motion is welcome in one respect in that it postpones, at least for a decent interval, what is a very expensive nod. But, for other reasons, I like the Motion a great deal less.
  Over the years we have got very used to Motions of this kind, which have the effect, by the postponement at which they aim, at taking the urgency out of the subject which we are discussing. I suggest that before we too readily accept the Motion, and go on to the next one—which calls attention to a situation in which excessive Government expenditure is at least partly to blame—we should, in my submission, instead of shedding the crocodile tears which we are asked by the Motion to shed, at least consider the possibility now of pursuing an economic policy which would not have as its consequence the erosion, one could almost say the laceration, of the savings and pensions of many people in this country.
  This Vote, consideration of which it is now proposed that we should postpone, is part of a very large sum—£5,600 million—which shows an increase of £380 million over last year's Estimates. It is, to my mind, yet another step along the road of effortless, deceiving hope which we have been treading since the war. One might well ask, "Why oppose

  1135
  this Motion? Why not seek another and later opportunity?" My anxiety stems from the fact that attention is so often called in the House to this problem without noticeable result.
  It seems that only by disturbing the regularity of this procedural device can one hope, in an exceptional way, to call attention to what is a desperately serious problem. Hon. Members will already be aware that the £ sterling, which was worth 20s. in 1945, is today worth 10s. 11d. In opposing the Motion to report Progress I remind the Committee of the words which were spoken by my right hon. Friend who is now the Minister of Aviation, when he was speaking from the back benches, in 1958, with all the prestige not only of an ex-Chancellor of the Exchequer—and the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition knows this problem only too well—but of a man who had had the courage of his convictions and who had seen fit to resign his high office.
  The following words by my right hon. Friend put the point very well:
  "The point I want to put is the quite simple one that for twelve years we have been attempting to do more than our resources could manage, and in the process we have been gravely weakening ourselves. … It has meant that over twelve years we have slithered from one crisis to another. Sometimes it has been a balance of payments crisis and sometimes it has been an exchange crisis, but always it has been a crisis. It has meant a £ sterling which has sunk from 20s. to 12s."
  It is now worth 10s. 11d.
  "That is not a picture of the nation we would wish to see. It is a picture of a nation in full retreat from its responsibilities. That is not the path to greatness. It is the road to ruin."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 23rd January, 1958; Vol. 580, c. 1295–6.]
  Those words, having been spoken with great weight by my right hon. Friend, and having been repeated, maybe without quite the skill, eloquence and weight on other occasions, lead me today to oppose the Motion if only in the slander hope of calling the attention of my right hon. Friends on the Front Bench—
  Mr. Emrys Hughes: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that in two days this week we have spent £1,000 million? Where was the hon. Gentleman then? Was he objecting to that Government expenditure?
  Mr. Peyton: The hon. Gentleman's knowledge of and passionate interest in defence subjects is well known. I am here today to perform a slightly different rôle to that performed by him, and perhaps he will let me get on with it.
  My point in opposing the Motion is that on countless occasions we have had debates, White Papers and Select Committees, but I suggest that these things are only devices which are no substitute for a willingness on the part of Parliament to control expenditure, to keep expenditure within our means and to check inflation.
  My right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in introducing this Vote on Account, the postponement of Which we are now discussing, said that the task of containing public expenditure was made more difficult by the pressure inside this House and out of it for more. I feel that, though this does not in any way excuse successive Governments from having let this thing go on and go on for far too long, with serious consequences, it should at least give some of us, no matter in what part of the House of Commons we may sit, cause to reflect about how we are discharging our own responsibilities in these matters.
  Crises have now become routine. As each one followed, we have eventually been forced to take painful, tough and inhibiting measures to cure it, and then, as it were we have "reported Progress and asked leave to sit again". We have then done the same thing again. I would remind the Committee of the words of Kipling:
  "The burnt fool's bandaged finger goes wobbling back to the fire."
  That is what we have done with the national economy. No one on either side of the House of Commons can entirely avoid his measure of responsibility. But, of course, the responsibility is, largely speaking, pinned upon those who have had the opportunity in office in successive Governments to do something to stand against this tide which is ruining the wealth, prosperity and prestige of our country.
  I feel that before we go on to the next Motion, before we continue our habit of echoing the cries of pressure groups from outside for more, we should at least resolve to speak plain

  1137
  English to the people and, for once, offer them the unvarnished, uncomfortable and uncongenial truth. If we are to have the things covered by this Vote on Account—I certainly accept that they are desirable and even necessary—then surely our effort has to be increased in order to sustain such expenditure. But if we are unwilling to increase our effort, then undoubtedly our expenditure must be trimmed.
  We have got into such a habit of refusing to examine the disagreeable and refusing to look at the uncomfortable that it seems to me that the House of Commons should now pause, even if it means the loss of a few votes or the loss of a few constituencies to one party or another, or even if it means the decline, disappearance and destruction of a few political careers. That would be a very small price to pay if we in this House were able to re-awaken the people in this country to the harsh facts of our present economic situation, to tell them quite clearly that if they want these things—which we have promised them—the securing of them depends entirely on the efforts made by management, by worker and by everyone in the community.
  I do not believe that we shall gain anything by our smug reliance on the fact that everyone in the world owes us a living. We must instead remind ourselves, and remind ourselves sharply, that we need from management greater enterprise, from workers greater productivity and from everyone a good deal less greed.
  3.57 p.m.
  The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Mr. Iain Macleod): I should like, in a few sentences, to put before the Committee the effect of following, if we do—as I hope we shall—the suggested procedure today in Committee of Supply.
  It is suggested that we report Progress and go on to take the next Motion on the Order Paper. That would, of course, have the effect that the Committee stage of the Vote on Account would not have been passed and so would be available for further debate. It is true that by our Standing Orders it could come under the Guillotine, because it will have been put down, as it has been put down, for debate in Committee of Supply.
  As I understand the position, therefore, the Vote on Account, which is, as my
  1138
  bon. Friend the Member for Yeovil (Mr. Peyton) says, for an enormous amount and of very great importance indeed, can come before the Committee again, and I have every hope that it will do so.
  I cannot be more precise on this for the obvious reason that it is the ancient, undoubted, traditional right of the Opposition to direct the course of Supply, and this procedure in relation to debates that we have on Votes on Account we have followed for very, very many years. But I hope that it will be possible for this Vote on Account to come before the Committee again, when perhaps in a general debate, or on a Motion, the sort of matters to which my hon. Friend has drawn attention could properly be debated.
  Having said that, and having made it clear that the Committee stage of the Vote on Account will not have been passed and is, therefore, available to come before the Committee again, I would hope that the Committee would agree to this procedure.
  3.59 p.m.
  Sir Harry Legge-Bourke: I have no desire, if I can possibly avoid it, to hold up Government business, or to prevent the start of the debate which I know the Opposition want to initiate. However, having heard what my hon. Friend the Member for Yeovil (Mr. Peyton) has said—I entirely agree with every single word he said—and now having heard the Leader of the House, I must confess to even greater concern about our ability ever to discuss this matter.
  I think that those hon. Members who have been in the House for any length of time know that it is only rarely that the Opposition seek to make the Government spend less money. In fact, every possible encouragement is given by the Opposition to spend more, except on the matter of defence, which is one of the things I would put as top priority on which to spend the money. Otherwise, the vast majority of the Votes covered under this Vote on Account are votes which the Opposition have frequently sought to make larger than the Government wanted.
  It is for those reasons that I feel that there is not much chance for those of us on this side of the Committee who

  1139
  would like to see this Vote on Account debated at length. It does not give us much confidence to know that it rests in the hands of the Opposition to provide an opportunity to debate it. It is for this reason, and this only, that I should like to follow what my hon. Friend said.
  It seems to me that what we and the Chancellor are up against is this appalling problem of the present policy, and the virtually inevitable consequence which flows from it, that to do the same thing as one did in the previous year one has to spend more money in the following year. This has been put to us over and over again. To me, this has gone on long enough for us now to face the fact that policies must be changed, because we do not appear to be able to deal with the problem in any other way.
  On 27th February, the Chancellor of the Exchequer showed clearly in column 1141, especially in the Answer he gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Yeovil, that there are many items of expenditure which nobody wants to see cut down. Probably we all have our own subjects which we would like to see furthered rather than reduced. If the Chancellor of the Exchequer has now got to the position, which I believe he has, where he cannot see the slightest hope of hitting the target he has set himself unless the policy is changed, that policy must be changed; but this will never happen unless the Government as a whole, and indeed the party that is supposed to support the Government, is united in wishing to fight inflation.
  That I believe to be paramount. If I felt that all Ministers, including Cabinet Ministers, were anti-inflation, I would feel more confident of hitting the target the Chancellor of the Exchequer has set. I believe that his target of not increasing public expenditure by more than 2½ per cent. is right, but consider the figures involved. We are dealing with only £1,445,371,503, but this is but part of a bigger bill of £4,113,306,500, and, therefore, this figure has now reached such a proportion that it is no good talking merely of temporary measures here and there to try to adjust the economy. Expenditure in this coun-
  1140
  try is now so vast that we must make certain that every heading on which this expenditure takes place is a heading under which the expenditure should be as great as is proposed.
  I believe that the priority is the same as the one I tried to explain in the defence debate the other day. Anything designed to increase productivity by means of education, research, and development ought to come first. This should be followed by defence, and after that we must work out priorities for what is left. Unless we do that, this country cannot afford the defence policy we are trying to pursue. The defence policy is essential for the safety of this nation and the peace of the world, and I therefore say that this policy of the Government setting a target, failing to meet it, and not being prepared to alter the policy has gone on long enough. We must alter policy. I ask the Government to face this and tell the country so. I do not believe that the country will fail if the truth be put to it.
  4.5 p.m.
  Mr. Hugh Gaitskell: The Committee stage of the Vote on Account is a Supply Day. It is, therefore, Opposition time. It seems to me that the hon. Member for Yeovil (Mr. Peyton) and the hon. Member for the Isle of Ely (Sir H. Legge-Bourke) are really seeking to turn this debate into Government back benchers' time. I sympathise with their desires to do this, but I hope that they will pursue this in a different way. There are two alternatives before them, in addition to that they followed this afternoon. They can persuade the Government to provide, out of Government time, an opportunity for a debate on the things about which they were talking, or they can join us and come over here for a spell in opposition. They will then be able to choose the subject, as the Opposition traditionally do on the Committee stage of the Vote on Account.
  Supply is an opportunity for Members of the House to raise grievances. I have no doubt that the two hon. Gentlemen have their grievances, but so have we, and one of them happens to be the condition of the old people and the low level of pensions and National Assistance, and we think it appropriate that at the end of the Committee stage on

  1141
  the Vote on Account these should be discussed. As it happens, it would not have been obligatory to have chosen the Vote on Account. We could have let this go on the Guillotine without any discussion whatever. We could, indeed, have taken it today on the Committee stage of the Vote on Account, and not on the Motion moved by the Patronage Secretary, and that would have ended the matter, but the Motion we are now considering is that we should report Progress and ask leave to sit again.
  There will be further opportunities for a debate on the Vote on Account, or at least there can be, and I think it not unlikely, though I am not going to commit the Opposition to anything at this moment. We shall consider the matter. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"] It is for the Opposition to decide how this time should be used. Hon. Gentlemen must accept that. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"] Because that is the tradition of the House over the years, and when hon. Gentlemen were in opposition they took advantage of it. We intend to stand up for the rights of the Opposition in this matter.
  We shall consider this matter. It is true that we want in the fairly near future to have an economic debate which, I think, would go over a good deal of the debate covered by the hon. Gentlemen. In any event, there will be further opportunities to discuss the Estimates of the different Departments as time goes on in the spring and summer of this year. I ask hon. Gentlemen not to continue this debate, but to give us the chance of starting the pensions debate which we, at any rate, regard as of the highest importance.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Committee report Progress; to sit again Tomorrow.

NATIONAL INSURANCE AND NATIONAL ASSISTANCE BENEFITS
4.8 p.m.
Mr. Douglas Houghton: I beg to move,
That this House deplores the lack of any action by Her Majesty's Government to grant increases to old people, widows and others on National Insurance benefits and National Assistance to compensate for higher prices and to ensure their fair share of the national income.
A short while ago my hon. Friend the Member for Lincoln (Mr. Taverne) served on the Government a preliminary notice to quit, and I feel sure that that will be confirmed in the results of by-elections to follow.
This Motion deals with one of the causes of the Government's present unpopularity, their failure in social policy. Right hon. and hon. Gentlemen may go into the Lobby to vote against this Motion, but many of their supporters would not, and there is a growing feeling amongst the people of Great Britain that we are not caring for the aged, the sick, and the helpless as much as we should, despite present difficulties.
The Minister of Pensions and National Insurance has held his present office for a long time, very nearly eight years. He is not only the best Minister of Pensions and National Insurance that we have, but within the recollection of many hon. Members he is the only Minister we have ever had. This places upon him a very special responsibility. Although we do not under-rate his achievements or his abilities, he must either break through our present stagnant system of social security or resign, because it has become a system of discretionary grants on a colossal scale. It is the weaknesses of the present position of social security that we wish to debate this afternoon.
In recent months the old people, the widows, the sick and the needy have made few claims upon the time of the House. We had a small Bill before Christmas, containing some very important concessions and one thoroughly bad Clause, to take away the family allowance from about 50,000 families in respect of their apprentice sons. We have not debated the main issues this Session. They have been crowded out by the economic crisis, the

1143
clamp down, the pay pause, and the clumsy antics of the Government in relation to wage negotiation and arbitration.
Within a few weeks the first phase of the pay pause is to come to an end. A Government White Paper has already described what the Government believe should be the next step. On 9th April we are to have the Budget. We have tabled this Motion because there is no sign whatever that welfare of the aged, the widows, and the poorest in the community will be taken care of in forthcoming pressures upon our modestly expanding resources. We have seen no guiding light for them.
When the Minister has been questioned recently about the intentions of the Government, he has made evasive answers and taken cover by recalling that the last increases were given as recently as last April. That is perfectly true. It will be within the recollection of the House that just before Christmas, 1960, we passed a Measure to increase National Insurance benefits by 7s. 6d. in the case of a single person to 57s. 6d. a week and by 12s. 6d. in the case of a married couple to 92s. 6d. a week. Regulations improving National Assistance scales were passed at much the same time. These increases raised the benefits, as the Minister never tires of saying, to the highest level in real terms yet reached. He also stressed that these increases were given as recently as last year.
To many old people, April of last year is a long time ago, because their condition has been worsening ever since. The National Assistance increases given last April were 5s. in the case of a married couple to 90s. a week, exclusive of the rent allowance, and in the case of a single person 3s. 6d., raising the scale to 53s. 6d., also exclusive of the rent allowance.
In the autumn of 1959, National Assistance scales were increased when National Insurance benefits were not increased at the same time. It is only fair to say that there were, therefore, two increases in National Assistance, one in September, 1959, and the next in April, 1961. During the past ten years National Insurance benefits have been improved at approximately three-yearly intervals. National Assistance scales have been increased at one-or two-yearly intervals,
1144
those in 1955 and 1959 being coincidentally within the few months of a General Election. The increases over the past ten years have been in 1952, 1955, 1956, 1958, 1959 and 1961. After all that, these scales are manifestly still too low.
The Motion deplores the lack of action to improve both sets of benefits now or in the very near future. Our aim is to satisfy the Government and the House generally that, notwithstanding past increases and the complacent Answers that the Minister has given recently, the scales, both of National Assistance and National Insurance, are too low, and have failed to fulfil the purpose which they have in our scheme of social security.
When we say that these benefits are too low we mean that they are too low to meet the reasonable needs of the people to whom they are given. They do not give people enough to eat or to wear, or the small luxuries that go to make life less dreary and drab. The recent evidence of the Survey of Family Expenditure suggests that old people are now spending less on fuel and food—the two necessities of their existence—which suggests that they are going without. They cannot afford even the standards which they had previously.
But the pragmatic and human test which many of us apply, which would convince most people in the country of the inadequacy of these benefits, is not enough for the Government. They always try to prove the adequacy of the benefits and express satisfaction with them by statistical rather than practical evidence. Therefore, I must try to meet the Government on the ground of their own choosing in order to make our case.
The first thing to note is that from 1959 in the case of National Assistance, and from 1960, in the case of National Insurance, the Government promised to do more than merely maintain the real value of these social benefits. They made a promise during the election, and it was repeated when the Minister moved the Second Reading of the National Insurance Bill on 15th November, 1960, that the Government wished to do more than maintain the real value of the benefits and to give them a share in the increasing national prosperity.

1145
That is the new and very important factor in our consideration of the adequacy of these benefits. Admittedly, however, it lacks precision. I shall come to that a little later. We do not really know what a share of the increasing national prosperity means. We have not had much experience of it either—only once in connection with National Insurance benefits and twice in connection with National Assistance. We have to get closer to what makes the Minister tick when he is considering these matters, in the light of the promise that social security beneficiaries shall have more than the restitution of the fall in the purchasing power of their benefits but shall have, in addition, a share in the increasing national prosperity.
The nearest I can get to what the Minister considers in interpreting and applying that promise is the Answer he gave to a Question tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Salford, East (Mr. Frank Allaun) on 14th November, 1960. He said:
"The factors which have to be borne in mind in proposing legislation for the improvement of National Insurance benefits include changes in the cost of living, the standards enjoyed by other sections of the population, what level of contributions would be reasonable and the state and prospects of the national economy."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 14th November, 1960; Vol. 1630, c. 18.]
He then said that some of these considerations were very clearly set out in certain paragraphs of the Phillips Committee's Report.
The next day the Minister introduced his proposals to improve the National Insurance benefits, and, after referring to previous increases, he said:
"… this particular body of proposals is in some ways distinct and different from those three preceding ones. It is different because this is a series of proposals not in any appreciable measure designed to compensate pensioners and others for a diminution in their pensions owing to rising prices. On the contrary, it is a series of proposals in substantial measure to increase the real standard of those provisions … to a far greater extent than the three preceding measures."
The Minister then said that the cost-of-living retail price index has increased only 2 points since the National Insurance benefits had been previously increased. He said:
"The 1958 improvements have in overwhelming measure retained their value, and these proposals are, therefore, built as a further advance
1146
in standards on that foundation."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 15th November, 1960; Vol. 630, c. 220.]
To show how good were the Minister's proposals and how far they overshot all the usual "traffic lights", the Minister applied three tests. First, the retail price index. He told the House on 15th November, 1960, that it had risen by 2 points since the previous increases in January, 1958. That was the cost of living factor—2 points. In looking at incomes of other members of the community the Minister said that wage rates had increased 6 per cent. since the previous increases. Although it was not mentioned by the Minister, the then Parliamentary Secretary who wound up the debate for the Government referred to the fact that average earnings had increased by 11½ per cent., as distinct from the figure of 6 per cent. for wages.
The Minister gave another figure, a new one, that of disposable incomes. He said that this figure had risen by 9½ per cent. since the previous increases in January 1958. So there we have a cost of living increase of 2 points and a wages increase of 6 per cent., with average earnings 11 per cent. up and disposable incomes 9½ per cent. up. The pension increases proposed then were 15 per cent. higher for a single person and 16 per cent. higher for a married couple. We see that in 1960 the Minister was proposing increases going well beyond the amount needed to preserve the value of pensions in real terms. As the right hon. Gentleman said, it was a real advance and it was indeed, in part at any rate, a fulfilment of the election pledge.
The Minister has made no proposals since to increase benefits and we can only judge in present circumstances what a share of the increasing national prosperity should be now. How much is it? There is no index for a share in the increasing national prosperity. It could be a full share or a proportionate share. It could be something less. But one thing we can agree on is that it must be something more than merely compensation for the fall in the value of benefits. It must be better than that—unless, of course, the Minister intends to say that there is no increase in national prosperity and, therefore, there is no share-out, not even for National Assistance and National Insurance beneficiaries.

1147
I now leave 1960, and turn to what the Minister had to say in 1962. On 12th February, the hon. Member for Plymouth, Devonport (Miss Vickers) asked how far the White Paper on incomes Command Paper 1626, paragraph 7—which rather discounted changes in the cost of living as grounds for wage increases—would affect the basis on which increases were to be given to retirement pensions. The Minister replied by referring his hon. Friend to the Answer which he had given to my hon. Friend the Member for Salford, East on 14th November, 1960—the very same Answer that I quoted a few minutes ago.
In answer to supplementary questions the Minister stuck to the 1960 formula which he said, at the time and since, was a considered statement. That was his brief and he was not going beyond it. Very well. We must now look at the 1960 formula, reiterated in February, 1962, as applicable to our consideration of the level of benefits today.
Of the factors defined by the Minister in 1960, two related to the standard of benefits, one to the contribution and one to the state and prospects of the national economy. Of the two which related to the level of benefits, the first was changes in the cost of living and the second the standard enjoyed by other sections of the population. So we must apply an up-to-date test to both of those. The index of retail prices has risen from 112 points to 117 points since January last year. It has gone up 5 points as against the 2-point rise at the time the Minister proposed quite substantial increases in National Insurance benefits in 1960.
In reply to written Questions from my hon. Friend the Member for Wallsend (Mr. McKay) and my hon. Friend the Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Ross) the Minister said that on cost of living grounds alone we should need to increase benefits and National Assistance scales by 4s. a week for a married couple.
There is, however, a growing volume of evidence, based on practical field research, to show that the actual cost of living of low income households, especially old people, is higher than the index of retail prices. The latest contributions to contemporary thought on this
1148
subject are to be found in two most valuable and recently published social studies. "National Assistance and National Prosperity", by Mr. Tony Lynes, and, "The Economic Circumstances of Old People", by Mrs. Cole and John Utting.
I invite all hon. Members who are interested in these social problems to read those two studies, which are most revealing. Mr. Lynes shows convincingly that the difference between the pattern of spending in low income households and other households requires different weightings in the retail price index. On his showing, the index for single pensioners as at April last year would have been no less than 28 points higher, and for married pensioners 16 paints higher, than the Ministry of Labour figure. Obviously, I cannot detain the House by investigating that proposition, but it is not to be brushed aside and it is closely argued in the study to which I have referred.
There is a considerable weight of evidence behind it in the practical survey undertaken by Mrs. Cole as to how old people really live and on what they spend their money and what they cannot have. We can all understand that the necessities of life, like fuel and food, take a much larger bite out of the income of the average pensioner than from the household budget of the population as a whole, whose spending habits are reflected in the retail price index.
Now, apparently, we are to have television, and even weekend trips in the motor car, brought into the retail price index. That will take the index further away still from the realities of life for the people with these low incomes.
I now come to the second test of the adequacy of the level of benefits, and that is the standard enjoyed by other sections of the population. When higher benefits were last proposed in November, 1960, wage rates had risen by 6 per cent. and average earnings by 11½ per cent. since the previous increase of January, 1958. Now, since November, 1960, when the Minister proposed the increases which became effective from April, 1961, wage rates have risen again by 6 per cent. and average earnings have risen again, not quite 11½ per cent. but 11 per cent.

1149
Much the same increases have occurred in bath wage rates and average earnings since 1960 as were taken by the Minister as the test of the increases he proposed in November, 1960. The average earnings of an adult man in October, 1961, were £15 6s. 10d. a week. The pension for a single person has steadily fallen as a proportion of average earnings from more than one-quarter in 1946 to less than one-fifth today. Imagine a pension for a single person of less than one-fifth of the average earnings of the adult male worker in the country today. The married pension rate has fallen from well over one-third to distinctly less than one-third of average earnings. There is no striking evidence there of pensioners getting a share of rising incomes.
The end of the pay pause will bring further wage increases to a larger number of workers. The Chancellor's guiding Light will certainly lead to an increase of 2½ to 3 per cent., at least in wage levels, fairly generally. How do the old, widows and others among the poor and helpless get their share of increased production and a higher national income? They have no trade union, no joint industrial council, no arbitration board; they rely on the Government and upon this House for protection and fair treatment.
In 1960, in connection with pensions, and in 1959, in relation to National Assistance, the Government gave us the understanding that a share of the national prosperity was to be the keynote of all future action by the Government. We are now looking for a tangible sign that that pledge will be consistently, and without fail, kept in the months to come. As I have said, at present there is no index for it, no sliding scale, no review date, no accepted criteria for automatic adjustment as in West Germany, for instance. There is no appeal, no guarantee against a neglectful, a weak or even a mean Government, and some guarantee should be put there.
Since 1957, in West Germany the pension is no longer determined by the actual contributions paid, but is calculated by an advisory commission applying a formula to take into account rises in earnings by men still at work in the pensioner's former vocation or profess-
1150
sion. A corresponding percentage is added as pension. In 1960, receipts for the pension fund from contributions amounted to just over £1,000 million, to which the taxpayers were called upon to pay over £500 million to enable the new dynamic pension scheme to be met, more than double the Exchequer contribution in this country this year.
Something on these lines is the only way to make sure that the pensioner does not get left behind. In Sweden and Belgium there are methods of tying the level of benefit to a pension cost-of-living index. In Sweden, there are cost-of-living increments. At present, the total of the cost-of-living increments amounts to £37 12s. a year on top of the basic national pension for a single old-age pensioner of £140 a year. We are out of date. The static pension scheme is a thing of the past.
Summing up the test of the 1960 criteria so far, we find this: in 1960, the cost of living was up by 2 points and in 1962 by 5 points. Wage rates in 1960 were 6 per cent. up and in 1962 6 per cent. up. Average earnings in 1960 were 11½ per cent. up and in 1962, 11 per cent. up. The remaining test for the level of benefits was disposable incomes, which, in 1960, the Minister said had risen by 9½ per cent. Unfortunately, I cannot give the comparative figures for 1962 owing to the lack of published information for 1961, but there is no reason to believe that the rise in disposable incomes since November, 1960, has been at any lower rate than it was between January, 1958, and November, 1960. Therefore, comparing the position today with that taken by the Minister in November, 1960, when framing his proposals to increase pensions by 7s. 6d. and 12s. 6d. a week, respectively, we find that the retail price index has risen more than twice as much, and wage rates and earnings just about the same.
On the basis of these factors, augmented for an undefined share in increasing prosperity, the Minister increased pensions by 15 per cent. in 1960. Why is he not proposing to do the same today? That is a question which I think it is fair to put to the Minister in the light of the evidence of comparisons which I have given. I assume that he will not do that judging by the

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terms of the Amendment to our Motion. What, then, is preventing him? What is in the way of the Minister proposing increases comparable with those of 1960 in the light of comparable statistical evidence? It may be that the Minister is inhibited by the other two factors which he mentioned in 1960. Those, the House will remember, were: what contribution would be reasonable? And the state and the prospects of the national economy.
We on this side fully accept that higher benefits mean higher contributions for the three parties in our contributory scheme—employees, employers and the State. The Minister has shown amazing resourcefulness in getting workers and their employers to pay more so that the State should pay less. In the graduated pension scheme he opened the most enterprising "bucket shop" in Britain today. He diminished the cumulative obligations of the Exchequer by robbing the graduated contributions to pay for flat rate benefits.
The Minister of Pensions and National Insurance (Mr. John Boyd- Carpenter): Although the hon. Member may talk about the potential liabilities of the Exchequer, the effect of this Measure was to increase the Exchequer contribution to a level of £200 million a year, which is the exact converse of the action taken by the Leader of the Opposition, who, in 1951, reduced the proportion of the Exchequer contribution.
Mr. Houghton: If the Minister wants to read all about 1951, I made a speech on that which finally set at rest a great many of the unfounded accusations made against my right hon. Friend in that connection. We all know that the Exchequer contribution was increased somewhat when the combined graduated and flat-rate scheme came into operation in 1961. The Minister will not deny that, in return for a modest immediate increase, he relieved the Exchequer of prospective liabilities of hundreds of millions of pounds a year.
Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I certainly do not accept that. By putting the National Insurance Fund on a solvent basis, of which, I should have thought, the hon. Member would approve, I relieved the Insurance Fund of serious potential
1152
liabilities. By "Insurance Fund" I mean all three contributors to it, as the hon. Member himself stated a moment or two ago.
Mr. Houghton: In the debates on the 1960 Bill, I went into this matter carefully and I produced evidence to show that the Exchequer fully contemplated having to make good a substantial deficit in the years to come on the National Insurance Fund. There is no getting away from that. The whole purpose of the graduated pension scheme was to solve that financial problem. It was not to give people slightly bigger 6d. bricks on top of their flat-rate benefit. It was to solve the Minister's prospective financial problem. It had no other purpose. We admired and congratulated the Minister on his wizardry and sleight of hand in performing that feat in front of the vigilant eyes of the people without being denounced as fraudulent in bringing a scheme of that kind forward.
I now return to my theme. We on this side accept that higher benefits mean higher contributions for all three parties. The British people have never shown themselves unwilling to pay for social security for themselves and for others. They have accepted extra burdens cheerfully, even when the Minister has performed feats of jiggery-pokery to relieve himself of ultimate financial burdens. Therefore, we need not stay to make heavy weather of finding the money. It is there and it will be readily forthcoming provided that the Minister plays straight on the proportion to be paid by the Exchequer.
I have one final point on the question of comparisons. The state and prospects of the national economy have to be taken into account by the right hon. Gentleman. Do the Government put it now so low that they must bilk the pensioner as well as the Armed Forces? Are we now having it so bad that there has to be a pause in the relief of poverty and the much heralded real advance of last year nibbled away by higher prices and falling behind the fresh advance being made by four-fifths of the nation on 1962 wages, 1962 profits, 1962 rents, interests and dividends and 1963 Surtax remissions?
We hear that the Government are straining every nerve to enter Europe. Entry into the European Economic Community would carry with it obligations

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to harmonise social benefits and expenditure. According to a recent survey by the I.L.O., our social security benefits expressed as a percentage of total consumption expenditure in 1957—the last figures available—were lower in Great Britain than in West Germany, France, Belgium, Italy and the Netherlands. Against our 11·2 per cent. West Germany's proportion was 21 per cent.
But the West Germans are not "broke". They have not "gone through the floor". Theirs is a vigorous, vital and expanding economy. Indeed, they are showing us how to do it. They are certainly not doing it by starving the poor. They are not doing it by curbing social security benefits so that people should have bigger wages and profits and forget all about the old people.
Mr. Anthony Kershaw: Will the hon. Gentleman add that other countries which have lower social service contributions than ourselves—Denmark, Norway and Switzerland—are not exactly starving to death?
Mr. Houghton: I was giving comparisons with countries in the European Economic Community, with which we have to associate and to whom we are under obligations to harmonise our social expenditure and our benefits. It is not a question of what we can afford so much as what we are prepared to afford. It is a question of priorities.
If anybody tells me that the West German worker is paying a high proportion of his wages in social security contributions, I admit it, but apparently he is doing it willingly and cheerfully, because he knows that in return for it he will get a dynamic pension scheme and not one of the shabby, flat-rate things on which we have to nudge, shove and browbeat the Minister before we can get any increase. Our social security scheme is no longer the envy of the world. We now lag behind.
Finally, I come to National Assistance. This, if anything, is the more pressing of the two. National Assistance scales can be improved more speedily than National Insurance benefits. They do not require legislation. Draft regulations do it. There are no complications of contributions. The Government can do something quickly if they will. I recall that the married scale for National Assistance is 90s. exclusive of rent
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allowance and for a single person, 53s. 6d. Discretionary grants are, of course, made to a large proportion of cases and small pensions and small savings are either disregarded or not reckoned in full—we all admit that. The low living standards of the poorest of the community are, however, supposed to contain an increasing prosperity bonus.
Can any hon. Member opposite see the bonus in 53s. 6d. a week or in 90s. a week, exclusive of rent allowance, for a married couple? Can anybody identify the increasing prosperity bonus? And yet on two occasions the Minister has said that he was adding something for good measure to reflect the increasing standards of the population generally. In 1959, in introducing even lower scales than we have today, the Minister said that
"today the value of the scales is above the original 1948 level"—
Hip, hip, hooray!
—"and … the proposed increase, unlike any of its predecessors, is not necessitated or called for by changes in the cost of living, but is a deliberate decision to improve the standards." [OFFICIAL REPORT, 15th June, 1959; Vol. 607, c. 37.]
I can see the right hon. Gentleman crowing and preening with his confident stride, saying, "They have never had it so good, and now we are giving it to them even better." He should read what Mr. Lynes has to say about all this in his pamphlet. At pages 16 and 17 he asks this pertinent question:
"If National Insurance is now going to reflect the level of incomes of the population generally, when does it start from?"
Does it start only from September, 1959, or from some other arbitrarily fixed date from which the Minister will not give an additional bonus for increasing prosperity? Even so, what is the Minister doing about the increased cost of living, quite apart from the increased prosperity bonus?
The retail price index is up by 5 points. This matters a great deal, especially to people to whom the retail price index is not a reality and does not reflect their own mode of life. Is the prosperity bonus and part of the real value of National Assistance scales to be eaten away before the Minister does anything more? If there is to be any reality in this share of increasing prosperity in both schemes, it should be built

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into the scheme, which should be reconstructed from the beginning and not merely be an ad hoc discretionary grant at the whim of the Minister dating from 1958 or 1958.
Mr. Lynes' booklet shows that even after the 1961 increases an extra 10s. a week for a single person would be needed to give a proportionate share in the real increase in national income compared with 1948, and since then prices have risen further. The increases now needed are at least 15s. for a single person and 17s. for a married couple. A widow with three children would need an extra 25s. a week. The Government have chosen to rely on National Assistance to help those in need rather than give adequate pensions and other insurance benefits. Having made this choice and accepted the principle of shares in increasing prosperity, the very least they can do is to see that assistance rates rise as fast as other incomes. The income of a single pensioner on National Assistance is only 14 per cent. higher in real terms than in 1948 and during the same period the real increase in national living standards in terms of average disposal income has been three times as great.
I have tried to show, on grounds chosen by the Minister himself, that increases in both sets of social security benefits are justified now and that the Government will be lacking in their duty if they fail to take action. On the criteria taken by the Government, improvements are justified. On the criteria taken by ordinary people who move about and see the plight of many old folk at first hand, our case does not need all this elaborate and intricate statistical support. It is self-evident to them, if not to the Government.
I said before, and I repeat, that the Government should not underestimate the passionate desire of the great majority of our people to see the old, the widows and the casualties of industry dealt with fairly and even generously. They should not be put to the hardships which many of them now endure—and still less should they be put to the shame of the begging bowl every time their conditions worsen. Let the Government act now, and boldly. The people will respond.
4.52 p.m.
The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Pensions and National Insurance (Mrs. Margaret Thatcher): I beg to move, to leave out from "House" to the end of the Question and to add instead thereof:
"noting with approval the substantial improvements in the value and standard of National Insurance and other social security benefits which have been made since 1951, and in particular that these were raised to a new high level as recently as last April, expresses its confidence that Her Majesty's Government will continue to secure that the recipients of these benefits share in the rising standards of the nation."
The hon. Member for Sowerby (Mr. Houghton) was, perhaps, expecting the Minister to rise at this stage. It is rather salutary that if one has been in office in the same position for six years one has to listen to so many of one's own speeches quoted back. I must remember that in what I might say today. My right hon. Friend will, of course, be winding up the debate. The hon. Member for Sowerby has done a great deal of homework. Although he seems to despise statistics, he gave a volley of them. I shall try to reply to some of them and try to follow some of his arguments, and I trust that I shall provide one or two answers.
I want to start by comparisons with the cost-of-living index, to go on to comparisons with average earnings and from there to discuss the cost to the community as a whole of the provision which it makes for old people through retirement pensions and for the needy through National Assistance. It seems to me that, for a speech of criticism, the hon. Member's speech turned out to be a speech of quite high commendation of my right hon. Friend, although I doubt whether that was altogether the intention.
I should like to start with a comparison with the cost-of-living figures. I take as a starting point for retirement pensions the obvious date, which is the date of the inception of the improved rates in 1946. For National Assistance the figures are different because, as the hon. Member is aware, that scheme started in 1948.
I take, first, retirement pensions. Had the pension increased with the cost of living, 26s. in October, 1946, would now be 46s. 10d. as against the 57s. 6d. which

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it is. The 42s. for a married couple in October, 1946, would now be 75s. 8d. as against the 92s. 6d. it is. That is over the whole period since 1946. If I were to take the period during which the Conservative Government have been in office—and I take the period beginning with October, 1951, immediately after the last increase by the last Socialist Government—the corresponding figures show that had we increased the 1951 pension to keep pace with the cost of living, the pension would now be worth 42s. to a single person and 69s. 11d. to a married couple, as against the 57s. 6d. and 92s. 6d. which we are paying. This means that during the present Government's term of office the pension has increased in real value by 15s. 6d. for a single person and 22s. 7d. for a married couple.
The hon. Member for Sowerby gave a large number of price increases, but he did not calculate any of them from the date when the last benefit rise came into operation. They dated from the proposals made by my right hon. Friend, although the base line which the hon. Member was using was not the date of the previous proposals but the date of the previous increases. Therefore, he has made an artificial selection by comparing like with unlike.
Since April, 1961, the retail price index has risen by 3·7 per cent. for all items and by 2·5 per cent. for the food components of the index. I agree that the retirement pension would be restored to its April, 1961, value by an increase of 3s. 5d. for a married couple and 2s. 2d. for a single person. On the National Assistance comparisons, relating them to the cost of living, between July, 1948, and April, 1961, the ordinary scale rate for a single person has risen from 24s to 53s. 6d., which is an increase in cash terms of 123 per cent.—I am using Mr. Lynes's booklet—and the rate for a married couple has risen from 40s. in July, 1948, to 90s. in April, 1961, an increase of 125 per cent. in cash terms.
Over the period, July, 1948, to January, 1962—and I take the latest possible figure, to take the worst possible case against myself—retail prices rose by 67 per cent. Therefore, there has been a very real increase in National Assistance and I find it difficult to understand why the hon. Member for Sowerby found it difficult to discover the bonus.
1158
The assertion is made by the hon. Member that the rise in the cost of living is greater for poorer people than that shown by the index. That is certainly not true since the introduction of the 1956 index, which, of course, was a revised one. I should like to give one or two figures. Since 1956, food has risen in price less and fuel and light more than the general index. The ordinary retail price index has risen as a whole to 117·5 from the base line of 100 in January, 1956, when it came into operation, but food items have not risen by anything like as much. The food index now stands at 110·7. But fuel and light have gone up more than the average, to 130·6.
The hon. Member for Sowerby mentioned Mr. Lynes's booklet and he will find there that Mr. Lynes gives a weighted index. I believe that it is related to Professor Allen's index of the corresponding amounts spent on food, fuel and light, and he says that the pension couple spend about four times as much on food as on fuel and light and that the single pensioner spends about 2½ times as much.
Therefore, if we give those figures the appropriate weightings, bearing in mind that food has risen in price very much less than the index as a whole, and fuel and light a little more, there is no reason to think that the cost of living for old folk is materially different from that reflected in the present index. I stress this point particularly because it was not brought out in Mr. Lynes's booklet, which I have examined very carefully indeed.
I come now to average earnings. I will not make any comparison with wage rates, because that is not a material comparison. Wage rates have lagged behind pension rates. Wage rates do not seem to be significant in this context. The average male earnings are the significant ones for this debate. I take, first, National Insurance benefits. Taking the period from 1951 to 1961, there has been an increase in average earnings of 85 per cent., and this is to be compared with an increase in pension rates of 92 per cent. for the single pensioner and 85 per cent. for the married couple. Thus, during the period of Conservative stewardship, the pension benefit rates have kept in line with, or

1159
have risen by as much as, average male earnings. That is significant.
I take, next, National Assistance scales. The National Assistance scale rate has risen by the amount I gave, and average male earnings in industry have risen from £6 14s. to £15 6s. 10d., an increase of 129 per cent. during the relevant period for National Assistance. This is to be compared with the increases of 123 per cent. and 125 per cent. in the National Assistance scale rates for the single person and married couple respectively. There is little material difference between the 129 per cent. for average earnings and the 125 per cent. for the scale rate for the married couple.
The hon. Gentleman made various disparaging remarks about the consumption of food in pensioner households, and referred to a survey which is unknown to me and which I have not seen. The survey which I shall quote is one which has built up a reputation over the years, the National Food Survey. Its findings are directly at variance with what the hon. Gentleman told the House. The National Food Survey studies the food intake of pensioner households, pensioner households being defined as households in which the household income is wholly or mainly derived from retirement pensions, non-contributory old-age pension, or, in the case of a widow over 60, a widow's pension—in each case with or without supplementation from the National Assistance Board. The survey is carried out once a quarter.
For the pensioner group, standards of nutrition generally appear to have risen significantly during recent years. The latest available figures show that, in the six months April to September, 1961, average expenditure per head on food by pensioner households was 29s. 11d. a week. Average expenditure per head by all households in the same six months was 31s. a week. The difference between expenditure in pensioner households and expenditure in ordinary households was only 1s. 1d. per head per week. This seems to be totally at variance with the impression given by the hon. Gentleman.
Having made a favourable comparison with both the cost of living and average earnings, I come now to an aspect not considered by the hon. Gentleman, the cost to the community as a whole of the
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provision made by the present Government, continuing the previous policy, to show that it has been an increasing cost. When I took out the figures to make the comparison with average earnings, I should not have been surprised if the result had shown that pension benefits had lagged behind average earnings for the simple reason that, although we have had an increase in the working population, that increase has to cater not only for increased benefits for the same number of pensioners, but for increased benefits for a considerably greater number of pensioners.
In 1946, there were six members of the working population for every pensioner. In 1956, there were only five members of the working population for every pensioner. In 1961, there were only four members of the working population for every pensioner. The figures for the advance in the working population which I am using are those published monthly in the Ministry of Labour Gazette. Thus, every person working has to provide not only the increased pensions per person, but has to provide for more persons. It is commendable that, in face of that situation, pension rates have risen as much as average earnings.
In the financial year 1951–52, which is when we came back into office, the annual cost of retirement pensions was £275 million. In the financial year 1958–59, it was £617 million, more than double. This year, it will be £787 million. This seems to indicate not a stagnant social security system, but a very vigorous one.
Next, I project forward on the current rates of benefit. At present, as the House knows, there are rather more than 5½ million retirement pensioners. In 1971, there will be nearly 7 million to cater for, and in 1981 there will be nearly 8 million. On the present rates, therefore, the cost to the community of footing the bill for the increasing number of pensioners will be £1,000 million in 1971 and £1,200 million in 1981.
Once again, this is not a stagnant system, and my right hon Friend has not been evasive in the actual benefits which he has delivered on this remarkably high level.
Mr. Houghton: The hon. Lady will, of course, agree that the cost has to

1161
be taken in relation to the growth in the national income. Presumably, if we are to double our standard of life in twenty-five years, we can cater for double the number of pensioners or, on the other hand, double their standard of life.
Mrs. Thatcher: I entirely agree. The hon. Gentleman gave figures of net disposable income. I have some figures here, but I had discarded them as rather academic. Perhaps my right hon. Friend will bring them in his reply, to the debate, or, as is more likely, will give a far more cogent reply to the hon. Gentleman.
It is quite clear that expenditure on the elderly section of the population will impose a heavy and increasing load on the future working population. If, since 1951, rates of pension had been increased in line with rising prices, the total cost of retirement pensions this year would not be £787 million, as it is, but only £580 million: the difference of £200 million represents the extent to which the pensioners' share in the national income has risen in the last decade.
For reasons which hon. Members will know it does not have the same significance to give the numbers on National Assistance, because they vary according to how the rates of retirement benefits move as compared with the National Assistance scale rates. However, I will give these figures in respect of the provision made by the community in cash terms. In the first complete year of National Assistance, we provided £49 million from the Exchequer for the needy. In 1950–51, this amount had risen to £61 million. In 1960–61, £172 million was provided in National Assistance. That is a measure of the increasing care for the needy given by the community.
Total expenditure per head of population on the social services rose from £30 in 1950 to £62 in 1960, according to an Answer given by my hon. Friend the Financial Secretary to the Treasury. All these figures show that the community has made considerable advances in real terms of caring for these people.
I come now to a heading which I call the adequacy of the basic retirement pension and National Assistance scale rates. The question is often asked whether anyone can be expected to live on the retirement pension of 57s. 6d. or
1162
on the National Assistance scale of 53s. 6d. The obvious answer is that no one is expected to, because there are other resources available. Of the 5½ million pensioners today, many have private resources or are members of occupational pension schemes and are receiving benefits from them. Also, 1¼ million pensioners have earned increments to the basic pension by deferred retirement, a very valuable part of the National Insurance Scheme to which, I think, too little attention is given.
The figures are rather complicated. I do not think that they have been given before, so I thought that hon. Members might be rather interested to hear an analysis of the increments being received by the 1¼ million pensioners who get them. Of the 1¼ million, 160,000 receive increments of 15s. and over; 293,000 receive increments varying from 10s. to 14s. 6d.; 319,000, increments varying from 5s. to 9s.; and 480,000, increments of varying amounts up to 4s. 6d. An increasing number in future will also have graduated additions to their pensions.
I recently visited Newcastle-upon-Tyne, where our central offices are situated. I was very interested indeed in one particular item of information which they gave me, and which may surprise the House almost as much as it surprised me. We tend to talk about a basic pension rate, but I was told that at present there are approaching 150 different rates of retirement pensions in payment, the majority being above the basic level. This is because of incremented pensions, graduated additions pensions and other reasons, but 150 different rates represents a colossal administrative problem when it comes to a change in the rates.
I turn from the retirement pensions to National Assistance. The scale rate of 53s. 6d. is only part of the help available from the National Assistance Board. My main comment about Mr. Lynes's booklet is that to take the scale rate on its own is to found the result of one's thesis on a false hypothesis, because the scale rate is only part of the assistance available. Hon. Members know, roughly, how the calculation goes. We assess a person's need, first, by taking the scale rate and adding to it the amount, or the proportion of the mount, paid in rent by the applicant

1163
for assistance, and we set against that figure of need the available resources.
In calculating the available resources, we disregard quite a number of capital assets and a considerable amount of income. The difference between these two figures is the basic National Assistance supplement, and to that is then added the appropriate discretionary allowances. The number of discretionary allowances has greatly increased since the inception of the scheme. At the end of 1961, two-thirds of retirement pensioners receiving National Assistance supplements were receiving discretionary allowances averaging 7s. 10d. In the calculation of need, rent is taken into account in full in 99 per cent. of the cases in which there is a rent liability.
The disregards for National Assistance were very substantially raised in 1959 by substituting 30s. for 20s. in the disregard of industrial injury and war disability pensions, and by substituting 15s. for 10s. 6d. in that of superannuation payments, while the disregards of earnings went up from 20s. to 30s., plus half the next 20s. The limit of capital assets above which assistance is not payable was increased from £400 to £600. It is interesting to note that at the end of 1960 over 200,000 retirement pensioners who were receiving assistance had some other income, and that about 450,000 of them had capital assets, over and above the value of owner-occupied houses, of £62½ million. Therefore, we are not altogether dealing with people absolutely on the poverty line, in the old sense of the term, for which I am profoundly thankful.
The hon. Gentleman has mentioned Mr. Lynes's essay quite extensively, and I have been through it myself. It is an essay, not a survey, but it is a very interesting and well-argued paper which, incidentally, confirms that the increase in assistance levels has done more than merely compensate for price increases. I think that some of the propositions in it are rather debatable. The hon. Gentleman talked, in particular, of the low-price indices—I believe that he was referring to them—which are mentioned in the calculations on page 36. Having been through it academically, as a person very interested in statistics, I find this one of the most difficult paragraphs to follow, and the best advice I have
1164
received has not been able to follow it, because it is entirely based on a "smoking household". If we include people who smoke cigarettes, it artificially inflates the price index.
It is ironical that the hon. Gentleman has taken the basic figure for a "smoking household", because only one-third of the pensioners in receipt of National Assistance actually had tobacco tokens and used them. It would have been much more appropriate to have taken it the other way round. I mention this because if we go back to table 5, on page 31—I hope that I am convincing the hon. Gentleman, even if he is not altogether following me since I have studied it very carefully—it shows an increase in the low income indices between July, 1957, and July, 1958, for single pensioners and pensioner couples, in the first instance, of 9 points, and, in the second instance, of 6 points. The comparable figure in the low price index for widowed mothers, who never had the tobacco tokens, remained stable.
Therefore, the hon. Gentleman has chosen that very part of the report which I have found extremely difficult to follow, though I have tried to follow all its calculations. Apart from that, I think it is a very interesting report and one which we shall consider carefully.
The second point I should like to make about it is that, when one compares assistance levels with average earnings levels, to get the comparison in proper perspective one should look at the level of assistance for a family group. The hon. Gentleman has been comparing assistance for pensioners with the average earnings of a family group. It would be better to compare assistance for a similar family to that which is taken in connection with average earnings. If we take a moderately-sized family of a man and wife and three children, the present assistance rates total £7 10s. If we add 28s., for rent, that is the average rent figure added by the Assistance Board for unemployed persons receiving assistance, the total is nearly £9 a week. There must be many wage earners with three children whose "take home" pay is not very much above this level.
The hon. Gentleman also referred to the Cole Survey, again a most interesting document. He referred, it seemed to

1165
me, in somewhat disparaging terms to the National Assistance supplement and the discretionary allowance. I would, therefore, point out that on page 97 of the very document which he has quoted, Mrs. Cole had this to say on the work of the National Assistance Board as a result of her findings:
"The overwhelming impression which we gained from the people who were actually receiving National Assistance was one of satisfaction with the way the system was administered".
She went on to quote this:
"'I've told all that to my Assistance man: he looks after me, why do you want to know it all?' said one old lady at the beginning of an interview. 'We can manage on what we've got now. The Assistance is very good to us', said two sisters 78 and 75 living entirely on Assistance, since they had never been employed."
Mr. Houghton: I want to ask the hon. Lady not to use the term "disparaging". Criticism is not necessarily disparagement. I do not think that I was disparaging.
Sir Richard Pilkington: The begging bowl.
Mr. Houghton: That was a condemnation, not a disparagement.
Mrs. Thatcher: The hon. Member underestimates the effect of his own words. I am sitting opposite him, and I would have called them disparaging.
There is not time to go into the Cole Survey too deeply. The only other comment I would make is that its definition of income—which definition is used to support sweeping statements about old people alleged to be living close to the poverty line, entitled to National Assistance and not getting it—was drawn to ignore all benefits in kind, such as rent-free accommodation and the value of living with a relative. On page 95, the Report points out that two-thirds of those people who Mrs. Cole suggested were entitled to but not receiving National Assistance were keeping house with someone else.
On that same page, she points out:
"Possibly, then, the units in our sample entitled to but not receiving allowances were rather better off than those already receiving them."
As a practical test of the efficiency of Mrs. Cole's conclusions, we noted that she interviewed just over 1,000 people.
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Her survey is the result of an analysis of 400 units, but she interviewed just over 1,000 people. The interviewers went armed with forms from the National Assistance Board and left them where they thought there was a prima facie case for receiving assistance. They did not leave them otherwise.
Of the 1,000 people whom they interviewed originally, they left these forms with 58. Only 21 of the forms were used and, of those, 18 were awarded an allowance. In other words, 2 per cent. of the people interviewed were ultimately awarded a National Assistance allowance. These figures do not compare very favourably with the conclusion drawn by the survey as a whole.
I knew that someone would mention Surtax payers. If it is possible—if hon. Members will listen to me—I want to try to put the Surtax relief, with the amounts payable from 1st January next year, in a slightly different light. It is very easy to make disparaging remarks about relief to Surtax payers—and I do not think that the hon. Member for Sowerby will refute that some of his remarks have been disparaging. It is a pity that his party has chosen to adopt the line that those who get on and make extra earnings by their own efforts must be publicly decried and milked as often as possible. That is a matter for him and not for me.
My point is that these people, who number fewer than 400,000 have contributed heavily to the Exchequer and, consequently, to our social security system. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has gone into his annual vow of silence and, therefore, the latest available figures I can get are those which have already been published, for 1959–60. It is noteworthy that these people—numbering fewer than 400,000—in 1959–60 contributed to the Exchequer, in Income Tax and Surtax, £735 million. The figures for the previous years are, respectively, £712 million; £655 million; £633 million; £608 million; £583 million; £536 million; £541 million; £531 million; £489 million and £475 million. Their contribution of £735 million is a very powerful one indeed to the Welfare State.
I suggest that it is against this background that the reduction in Surtax should be considered. Even if the

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amount paid by Surtax payers has not risen in the two years in respect of which figures are yet to be published—which I doubt—it means that after the relief of £83 million, Surtax payers, on the lowest possible estimate, will still be paying £650 million to the Welfare State, through the Exchequer, which my right hon. Friend and I are very pleased about, because we rely upon heavy in goings to the Exchequer for financing some of the schemes.
At one stage the hon. Member compared our scheme with the Swedish one, and later with those of other Common Market countries. He frankly admitted that the latest comparable figures are totally out of date, because they relate to 1957. In fact, no up-to-date ones exist. Comparisons between our scheme and those of European countries or any other countries are notoriously difficult to make, for reasons which are not difficult to see. For a start, when there are many unemployed people a higher demand is imposed upon social security. It is very ironical that having fewer unemployed, and, therefore, paying less in unemployment benefits, counts against one.
Secondly, there are different structures of populations. Different working populations have to support different numbers of retirement pensioners. It is right to point out that most European countries have a fairly high number of retirement pensions, but that the rate of increase varies considerably, as against ours. Therefore, comparisons should be used very sparingly. Most serious commentators on the schemes agree about that.
A general fact worth pointing out is that a country which has a high standard of living spends proportionately less on its social security schemes. As my hon. Friend the Member for Stroud (Mr. Kershaw) kindly pointed out, Denmark and Sweden—countries with a high standard of living—spend broadly the same proportion as does the United Kingdom on social security benefits. Countries like Australia, Canada, Israel, Norway, Switzerland, and the United States of America, spend less. In France, the high amount is due to the very high rate of family allowances, which is an unusual policy but
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happens to be well suited to the requirements of that country.
The hon. Member quoted the Swedish figures as being very favourable as compared with ours. I am not certain how my figures compare with his, but according to the latest information available to me the basic pension in Sweden is £190 per annum single and £300 per annum married—payable only from the age of 67 for men and women alike. The United Kingdom is one of the few countries which pays retirement benefits, or any other benefits, on a weekly basis. Many other countries pay them on a monthly basis and some on a quarterly basis, so that they have nothing like the same administrative costs. If the hon. Member is quoting comparable figures he should point out the different age at which persons become entitled to benefits in the various countries.
Mr. Houghton: I was quoting the schemes of Germany, Belgium and Sweden to show that they have a built-in provision for automatic adjustment. I was not attempting to show whether or not those schemes were better than ours.
Mrs. Thatcher: The hon. Member may now feel happier that, even without a built-in automatic adjustment, we have kept pace, under a Conservative Government, with the rise in average wage earnings which I quoted.
I turn to the West German scheme, which the hon. Member quoted very favourably as having this built-in adjustment. It is paid on a monthly and not weekly basis, which makes a considerable difference. We cannot properly ignore the contribution provisions of the West German scheme. Again, it is not easy to compare. I will give two different comparisons. Under the West German scheme, which is run on a different basis, contributions are paid not only for pensions and other National Insurance benefits, but for health services as well. It makes comparisons very difficult.
What I have tried to do is to compare what would happen to our contribution rates if we shifted over entirely to the West German system. Difficult as it has been, I have attempted to isolate the pension factor. The first analogy would involve the shifting over to the German system of financing social security, which

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depends heavily on contributions. It is financed by a contribution of 12¾ per cent. from the employee's earnings and 15¾ per cent. by the employer—a total of 28½ per cent.
For the £9 a week worker in this country, this would work out at a contribution of approximately 22s. 9d. a week, instead of the present 10s. 7d., while the employer's contribution would be about 28s. 4d. as against 8s. 7d. at present. It would mean a total weekly stamp for the £9 a week worker of 51s. 1d., as opposed to the present 19s. 2d.
Then there is the case of the £15 a week worker not contracted out of the graduated scheme. His flat rate and maximum graduated contribution would be 38s. 3d. a week instead of 15s. 8d., while the employer's contribution would be 47s. 3d. instead of 13s. 8d. This would be a total weekly contribution of 85s. 6d. compared with the present 29s. 4d. That is what is involved in shifting over entirely to the West German scheme of financing.
If we try to isolate the pension component, we still find that the contribution rates are very much higher than the existing ones in this country. The pension contribution in West Germany is 7 per cent. of earnings up to £964 per annum, both for employer and employee. To an employee in this country earning £9 a week, this would mean a contribution of 12s. 7d. a week, while the employer would also pay 12s. 7d. That is for pension only, and it is more than our existing contribution of 10s. 7d. from the employee—which goes not only to pensions, but to sickness, unemployment, and industrial injuries benefits, and to the National Health Service—and 8s. 7d. from the employer for people not contracted out.
For the person earning £15 a week or more, the contribution for retirement pension only would be 21s. per week for each side compared with the present contribution of 12s. 9d. from the employee and 9s. 10d. from the employer to cover all contingencies. These are the maximum graduated contributions.
Mr. William Ross: There is something wrong with the hon. Lady's figures, which are very complicated. My calculation is that the contribution would be 15s. 8d. from the employee.
Mrs. Thatcher: I will have my calculation checked and let the hon. Gentleman know whether my figures are correct.
I do not wish to detain the House for long. I hope that I have said enough to convince right hon. and hon. Members that not only have pensions risen more than the rise in the cost of living, but that they have risen in proportion to the average male earnings and that the community has made an increasing contribution—a contribution which is likely to go on increasing—for the benefit of the retirement pensioner and those in need. As it is less than one year since the last benefit increase came into operation, we have, of course, no proposal at the moment for a further increase in benefits. For the reasons I have given, I have the greatest confidence in commending the Amendment.
5.35 p.m.
Mr. Harold Finch: I congratulate the hon. Lady the Parliamentary Secretary on the able manner in which she put her case. Her speech consisted largely of figures and statistics, but, nevertheless, she put her case very ably.
The Minister seems to have anticipated this debate, because, when he addressed a meeting of Conservative women at Bournemouth recently, he said, according to The Times of 8th March, that the Labour Party were
"… going back to their old vomit of pensioneering."
Mr. Houghton: Shame.
Mr. Finch: That was a very crude remark. Indeed, it was nauseating.
The right hon. Gentleman has always shown a very wide knowledge of the National Insurance Acts and Regulations in this House, but whenever we approach the subject of pensions he gives the impression of intolerance and impatience. I can only conclude that he is conscious of the plight of the old people, but resents being reminded of it. Nevertheless, we want him to do something about it.
The Times of 8th March also reported that the right hon. Gentleman had received a deputation from the National Federation of Old Age Pensions Associations. It is evident from this that the demands for increased pensions are not confined to any political party. The

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old-age pension associations consist of people belonging to various political parties, or to none at all. If they express dissatisfaction with the pensions they should know what they are talking about, because they live on them.
Whatever figures may be put forward, the fact is that most pensioners, despite what the hon. Lady says about the increases in April, 1961, are in poverty. I challenge anyone to deny that. The majority of those who depend on rates of benefit under the present legislation are in poverty.
The retail price index has been mentioned. If we take the January, 1956, figure as being 100, then by November, 1960, when the National Insurance Act, 1960, was introduced in the House, and the Government made their decision on the rates of benefit to be paid, the index had gone up to 112. By January, 1962, it had gone up to 117. Since the right hon. Gentleman introduced the Act in November, 1960, the index has risen by 5 per cent. That is very serious for old people.
The right hon. Gentleman must recognise that simply because pensions and other benefits were increased in April, 1961, this does not mean that there should be no further improvement It is because of that that we are justified in pressing him for an assurance that the pensions will be increased for those who are on the flat rate.
The hon. Lady made play of the position in 1948 and 1951, relating the figures then to the figures today. But we all know that the pensioners are not interested in what took place in 1948 or 1951. Many of the pensioners who received benefits ten years ago are not alive today. There is a new class of pensioners many of whom compare their pensions with their earnings at the time they retired.
When the coal miner retires—there is compulsory retirement in the coal industry—his income falls to £4 12s. 6d. for himself and his wife. Perhaps he had been receiving £15 to £25 a week as a piece worker, which is what can be got in certain coalfields. A fall in income to £4 12s. 6d. a week, plus any supplementary allowance which there may be, is serious for him. It may be said that as a person grows older he
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does not incur the same expenditure which he incurs when he is younger and in work, but when a person's wage falls from £15 a week to £4 12s. 6d. a week it causes considerable hardship, and it is difficult for him to adjust his life to changing circumstances.
We raise this matter today because we believe that pensions should be dealt with in a more scientific way. The old-age pensioners do not like these debates in the House of Commons all the time. It is most undignified. They do not like the system which causes us continually to plead for pension increases because of increases in the cost of living. We on this side believe that the time has come when there should be a system under which pension increases are automatic, without there having to be these debates.
Whatever the Parliamentary Secretary may say about the German or Swedish method or any other European method, one thing which stands out prominently is that other European countries have methods of adjusting pensions automatically in relation to the cost of living or to average national wages. We have no such policy here. Suppose that the Minister agreed today to increase pensions. In two or three years, or even less, the cost of living will have risen again and the value of the £ will have fallen and we should have to have another debate about the need to increase pensions. We are achieving so much in so many directions, yet we have to spend Parliamentary time in pleading the case of pensioners. The time has come to look at this problem in an entirely different light.
The Parliamentary Secretary is quite right when she says that the German worker makes greater contributions to his pension scheme than the worker in this country. But as time goes on he will be getting a higher pension than the worker in this country, in spite of Germany's present economic position. In Germany, pensions are dealt with automatically. Since 1957, the West Germans have got away from the idea of subsistence levels. Pensions in that country are related to national wages, and they are adjusted in the light of changes in industrial production and productivity.
There is an automatic revaluation of pensions in Belgium when the retail price index varies by more than 2½ per cent.

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France has an annual revaluation with effect from 1st April each year and there is an adjustment of pension when the wage index varies by more than 3 per cent. in six months. There is an automatic adjustment in Luxembourg every time the index figure varies by 5 per cent.
I do not propose to go into the merits or demerits of the schemes or rates of benefit which operate in those countries. I merely say that there is a more scientific way of dealing with the problem than the way in which we in this country deal with it. It may be said that it is not correct to base the pension on the retail price index or on national wages, but there is a method by which pensions can be increased automatically by taking the yardstick which I have said is used in European countries. We have no such method as that.
Even the graduated scheme which the Minister introduced some time ago has no regard to the future. As my hon. Friend the Member for Sowerby (Mr. Houghton) said in the last debate, a man of 40 years of age, earning £12 a week, will pay an extra 2s. 8d. a week and his employer an extra 2s. 8d. a week for twenty-five years. For these extra contributions, he will get an increase in his pension of 11s. 6d. In view of the present-day inflation, what will be the value of 11s. 6d. in two or three years' time? The same may be said about a man who has been in employment for 40 years earning £15 a week. If he is married, when he is 65 years of age he will get £6 7s. 6d. a week. But what will be the value of that in ten or fifteen years' time?
Even in this scheme, future increases in the cost of living or changes in the valuation of the £ are not taken into account. This will result in further debates in this House so that we may plead for an increase in pension because of the rise in the cost of living. The time has come when the Minister should consider a better method of dealing with pensions.
We must also pay attention to injury, sickness and unemployment benefits. Here, I return to the position in Germany and in Luxembourg, countries with which negotiations are taking place today about our entry into the Common Market. The figures which I now pro-
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pose to give are taken from the International Labour Review of the International Labour Office. They concern a married man working in the steel industry who has two children. In Belgium, his industrial injury benefit is 71·3 per cent.; in France, 46·7 per cent.; in West Germany, 70·5 per cent.; in Italy, 68·4 per cent.; in Luxembourg, 78·4 per cent.; in the Netherlands, 75·8 per cent.; and in the United Kingdom, 45·7 per cent. of his gross annual wage.
Sir William Robson Brown: Who pays that money?
Mr. Finch: I recognise that the contributions which are paid in some of those countries, but not in all of them, are higher than those paid in this country.
Sir W. Robson Brown: The major part of those payments is made by industry.
Mr. Finch: I agree with what my hon. Friend the Member for Sowerby said. If pensioners and those in industry get value for their money under any scheme, they are prepared to pay increased contributions. But the Government's graduated scheme does not give value for money, and that is why we criticise it.
I now turn to the question of unemployment benefit. In Belgium, it is 42·2 per cent.; in France, 40·2 per cent.; in West Germany, 51·8 per cent.; in Italy, 19·3 per cent.; in Luxembourg, 55·8 per cent.; in the Netherlands, 79·8 per cent.; and in the United Kingdom, 34 per cent. of the workers' annual wage. Similar considerations apply to unemployment benefit and sickness benefit. We are bottom in the table. This information has been given by the International Labour Office.
Mrs. Thatcher: Is it the 1957 information?
Mr. Finch: No. This information is dated July-August, 1961. The family allowances position is not quite as good, for the West German figure is below ours. But in many other countries family allowance benefits are better than ours.
These figures reveal that we must look more closely at the whole scheme. It is not good enough to rely on the graduated scheme now operating because it

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is only related to retirement benefit and not to the other factors. If the countries which were ravaged far more severely than we were during the last war can raise their sights so much higher than ours it is time that the Government examined the whole basic morality of their social security policy.
The Minister of Health has always argued about our being increasingly selective. I think that the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance also mentioned this at that Bournemouth gathering about which I spoke. But we do not know what is meant by the phrase "increasingly selective." I recall that last week the Minister of Agriculture asked for a Supplementary Estimate of £78 million without batting an eyelid. It seems that the farmers got £31 million—and I am not complaining about that—but where the balance went I do not know.
It certainly did not result in a reduction in meat prices or in other commodities. It is evident that it went towards the distribution costs and to the middlemen. I speak of a figure of more than £40 million, so I am wondering what is meant when Government spokesmen say that we must be more selective in our expenditure on the social services.
After all, we are dealing with elderly men and women who have helped to make Britain what it is. They have lived through two world wars and times of depression. Are we satisfied that now, in the evening of their days, they should live on £4 12s. 6d. a week with some supplementation? That is poverty. Whatever the Government say, it is sheer poverty. How can they live adequately on such a sum?
These old people would like to take holidays and enjoy our higher standard of living. They see their children living in better circumstances and surely, in justice, we should relate their position to our improved standard of living. What the Labour or any other Government did in 1948 or 1951 is beside the point, for we must look at the problem as it is today. I hope that, as a result of this debate, we shall have convinced the Government that they should look at this whole problem in a completely different light. I realise that after a lot of agitation, perhaps in six or eight
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months' time—or when a General Election is approaching—the Minister may say that increases will take place.
Mr. Houghton: Shame.
Mr. Finch: Yes.
After we have had further general increases in prices, resulting in even greater poverty for these elderly folk, the right hon. Gentleman will no doubt say that increases will be given in the rates of pension. But we want that done now. Now is the time when these people need this money. Although summer is approaching they are already thinking of having to face another winter. It will be one of impoverishment and poverty for them and I hope that, as a result of the remarks that have been made today, the Minister will give a satisfactory reply.
Sir W. Robson Brown: To get the position quite clear, may I refer the hon. Gentleman to my previous intervention? I was drawing his attention to the fact that a good part of the money he quoted as having been paid in other countries was financed by the industries of those countries. I believe that more of that should be done in Britain, although a lot is already done. More should be done by industry to look after and care for its own people.
Mr. Finch: I realise that that is so in many of the instances I gave, particularly in West Germany, where industry makes a greater contribution than it does here.
5.55 p.m.
Mr. Julian Ridsdale: I join in the congratulations which have been expressed by hon. Gentlemen opposite to the hon. Lady the Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Pensions and National Insurance on the charming way in which she revealed to the House her vital statistics. But also, before I attack the hon. Gentleman the Member for Sowerby (Mr. Houghton), I should say that I agreed with one thing he said; that if we are to have a new cost-of-living index in which television sets and cars will be included, I hope that it will be possible to have a cost-of-living index for the older people as well. That might also help to answer some of the extravagant claims made by the hon. Gentleman the Member for Bedwellty (Mr. Finch).

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I welcome this debate not only because it gives us an opportunity of showing how timely Government action has been in the past ten years towards old people, but because it provides a valuable opportunity of discussing what should be done to ensure that old people, widows and those on National Insurance, have their fair share of the national income.
Successive Conservative Governments, over the last ten years, have taken timely action to compensate for higher prices. The Government took prompt action to restore in July, 1952, the purchasing power of the National Insurance benefits. They were raised well beyond the 1948 level in 1955 and for a third and fourth time they were raised to the highest levels ever reached in 1958 and 1961.
Successive Conservative Governments have raised retirement pensions in money terms; from 30s. for a single retired pensioner in 1951 and 50s. for a married pensioner to 57s. 6d. for a single pensioner and 92s. 6d. for a married pensioner in 1961. As the Parliamentary Secretary said, the purchasing power in terms of prices in January, 1962, has increased by 15s. 6d. for single pensioners and 22s. 7d. for married pensioners; an increase of 37 per cent. over 1951 for a single pensioner and 31 per cent over 1951 for married pensioners. My hon. Friend also rightly said that there was a comparable increase of about 33 per cent. in average industrial weekly earnings over the same period. So pensioners have more than kept pace with the cost of living and, indeed, with industrial earnings.
The gross national product under the Labour Government increased by 46 per cent. and the pensioners' share increased by only 15·6 per cent. Under the Conservative Government the gross national product has increased by over 60 per cent. while the pensioners' share has gone up by 66·6 per cent. The pensioners and the elderly have also gained from improvements made in housing, health, welfare services, employment opportunities and tax reliefs and timely action has indeed been taken by the Government in all of these spheres, none more particularly than in housing, which is so important to elderly persons.
Mr. A. E. Hunter: Will the hon. Gentleman remember that a number of elderly people have lost their rent control?
Mr. Ridsdale: I realise that, but help has been given through National Assistance. Indeed, the contributions made by National Assistance have gone up by about 100 per cent. to those who have had difficulty with their rents.
In 1961, 24,257 single-bedroom houses were built for elderly people in England and Wales compared with 11,000 in 1951. A person over 65 with an annual income of £440, or £9 a week, pays no tax, whereas in 1951 such a person paid £39 in tax.
Other tax reliefs have, of course, been given. For example, for those over 65 investment income is now counted as earned income, and it is open to the Government to make further improvements in this line. What about widows, mentioned in the Motion? A widow with three children now receives 134s. 6d. a week compared with 55s. a week in 1951, an increase in real value of almost £3 a week or 75 per cent. between October, 1951, and December, 1961. As for help in respect of the earnings limit, the widowed mother's personal allowance is not fully withdrawn until her earnings have now reached £8 8s. a week compared with £4 10s. in 1951.
What else have the Government done to ensure pensioners a fair share of the national income? In March, 1960, the Government increased the earnings limit by 10s. for the retirement pensioner. Thus, the 57s. 6d. retirement pension is not fully withdrawn until earnings reach £6 18s. a week compared with £3 10s. in 1951. Supplementary pensions have been increased by six times between October, 1951, and April, 1960—by 23s. 6d. for a single person and 40s. for a married person.
Those on National Assistance get an automatic refund of prescription and other National Health Service charges. All these are timely acts on the part of the Government. Probably one of the most important was mentioned by my hon. Friend, that for those on National Assistance. This concerns the disregard for capital purposes in respect of

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National Assistance payments which was raised in September, 1959, by 50 per cent. to £600.
Such actions by successive Conservative Governments entirely refute the insinuation in the Opposition Motion that timely savings to the elderly are not the Government's policy. Indeed, it was this record and such actions by the Conservative Government which constituted such a decisive factor in the last General Election. The result of that election showed that pensioners on the whole were well content with the balance achieved at that time of their share in the national income compared with those at work and those who were at school and being educated. But as productivity increases they look forward to further increases in the benefits of prosperity. However, they were content to wait rather than fall for the lavish promises which the Opposition made to them during that election.
They did this, I believe, because what pensioners want more than anything else, more even than the successive increases which they have received since the war, are financial policies which will lead to stability in prices. Indeed, even more than getting immediate compensation for higher prices, pensioners rightly want to know what was the real cause of the upset of the stability which they enjoyed for two years and what should be done to restore that stability and which other sections of the nation have gained since 1959.
Let us look at the facts and consider how the balance has altered since September, 1959. I am sure it is clear to everyone that the reason for the upset in the stability of prices is that incomes have increased so much ahead of productivity, last year by £1,620 million compared with a productivity increase of £630 million. That is the reason for the rise in prices at present. Surely, therefore, just as important as giving compensation for higher prices is the need to halt the wage inflation. What is wanted, first, is to stop the rise and not to add to the spiral at this moment by giving further money incomes to be spent. That is the honest way to help the pensioners and the country.
I am certain that pensioners are beginning to see through the double-talk of
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hon. Members like the hon. Member for Sowerby, who seems to want to play a double rôle in the rise in the cost of living. Having succeeded in his capacity as a union leader in pushing wages ahead of productivity to the detriment of pensioners, now he wants to add a little more fuel to the fire of wage inflation which he has helped to create and, at the same time, he asks the Government to take action to put out that fire.
Mr. A. V. Hilton: The hon. Gentleman has said that one of the biggest difficulties about pensions is the continued increase in incomes in recent times. I wonder whether he is aware of the national minimum wage of farm workers? I know that he does not represent an agricultural area, but would he regard the national minimum wage of agricultural workers, which rose only a fortnight ago to the "astronomical" sum of £8 15s. for a week of 46 hours, as having any effects in making pensioners dissatisfied?
Mr. Ridsdale: I do not want to join in a debate on agriculture at present.
Mr. Hilton: The point is the wages of agricultural workers.
Mr. Ridsdale: I would remind the hon. Member that I represent a farming constituency. This is, however, a pensions debate, and the point I want to make is that what is needed is responsibility and restraint in order to keep wages in line with productivity. That is how to bring about stability in prices and help the pensioners and lower wage earners more than anything else.
I know that it is very nice to make comparisons between one section of the community and another; one can find so many heartrending cases. But the case that I am making against the hon. Member for Sowerby is that he has fanned the flames of wage inflation by encouraging wage increases and has then asked the Government to put the situation right again, thereby adding more fuel to the fire.
Mr. Houghton: Surely the hon. Gentleman must be aware that I have had nothing to do with pushing anybody's wages anywhere in the last few years.
Mr. Ridsdale: Then I hope that the hon. Gentleman will restrain some of his hon. Friends, with whom he is, I

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know, very friendly, from pushing wages as they have done.
What has happened is most unfortunate, because what pensioners want more than anything else, even more than immediate grants to compensate for higher prices, is an end to the wage inflation.
I want to take up the point of the hon. Member for Bedwellty about selective benefits being given to pensioners. I should like to suggest how funds, when they become available, might be allocated to ensure that the old people—widows and others—have their fair share of the national income. Last Friday week the House debated a private Member's Motion of mine about the position of elderly ratepayers. Before and since that debate I have received 500 letters from all over the country. I notice that the most heartrending and moving of those letters have come from those who have been retired for some time. These have included a number who are above the National Assistance level, but who are too poor to benefit from tax relief.
I hope that when funds are available the Minister will be able to make National Insurance more selective in this context and concentrate on the categories of beneficiary which need help the most, such as widowed mothers and the long-term sick and, above all, pensioners who have been retired for some time and have to replace their clothing and other things at a time when it is more difficult for them to get the benefit that other sections of the community have because of the length of their retirement. It is in that context that I look to the Minister to allocate the sums selectively and wisely to cure this searching need at the moment in our community to help those people who have been retired the longest.
I am sure that the House will have noticed the absence from the Motion of any reference to the need to deal with wage inflation, or the need to keep stability in prices. This is the action which is needed now, above all else, to help old people, widows, and others. It is this policy which I am certain the Government are resolutely pursuing. It is because I have faith in their determination to pursue this policy that I confidently support the Government in opposing the Motion, and support the Government in their Amendment.
6.11 p.m.
Mr. A. E. Hunter: I have pleasure in supporting the Motion. The hon. Member for Harwich (Mr. Ridsdale) dealt with inflation and old-age pensions. My hon. Friends and I do not consider that a pension of 57s. 6d. a week for a single person and 92s. 6d. a week for a married couple can be regarded as Utopia. The hon. Lady, who I gather was speaking from the Dispatch Box for only the second time, made a good speech, but if she and her hon. Friends think that the figures I have mentioned represent Utopia—I know that in some oases National Assistance is also provided—then they and I are looking at the position in different lights.
I agree that we have made progress in the social services. Had we not done so, our lives would have been wasted. My hon. Friend the Member for Bedwellty (Mr. Finch) has spent a lifetime helping his fellow countrymen. As I say, we have made progress during the last thirty years, but we have not made the progress that we should have made in the twentieth century, when poverty and want should have been totally abolished.
The hon. Member for Harwich talked about the old-age pensioners in relation to inflation. Old-age pensioners do not cause inflation in consumer goods. Apart from a very small proportion of wealthy pensioners, how many of them buy motor cars? Some have television and radio sets, and good luck to them if they have, but it is not they who put pressure on consumer goods. Therefore, I do not think that one can blame the old-age pensioners for the inflation that has occurred during the reign of this Government.
It is some time since we had the opportunity to discuss the needs of old-age pensioners, widows, the sick and those who are unable to work. This Motion concerns millions of people. It is as important as defence, or some of the other subjects that are debated. As I say, we seldom get the opportunity to debate the needs of the poorest people in our community.
Since the Government announced the last increase in pensions in November, 1960, retail prices have gone up 5 points.

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I agree with the hon. Member for Harwich that a special index of prices for old people would be of great benefit to them. This increase of 5 points in the retail price means that the cost of living has affected the poorest people most, and one of the great weaknesses of the pension scheme is that there is no annual review to adjust pensions and National Insurance benefits in accordance with rising costs.
In some industries, for example, in the building and some other industries, there is an annual review of wages so that if the cost of living rises wages are automatically increased. It seems to me, therefore, that it should be possible to have an annual review of pensions, and automatically adjust them to the cost of living. The majority of the people about whom we are talking live on the smallest of incomes. They live on a razor's edge, and according to a recently published report forty out of every one hundred old age pensioners have no savings. If these people are not on National Assistance and they want new clothes, or new equipment for the kitchen, or some article of furniture, the outlay can be a serious drain on their resources.
I have always thought that the basic rates for the old-age pensioner, the sick and the unemployed were too low, and the rise in retail prices during the last year has had a marked effect on their small incomes. Again, a cold winter like the present one proves a great burden to the old and the sick. We have had four months of cold weather during which old and sick people have not been able to leave their homes. This means heavy additional expense for heating, whether it be by coal, gas, or electricity. To keep themselves warm, it is necessary for these people to have a fire going for 12 or 14 hours a day, and some nights have been so cold that I imagine those who could afford it have kept a fire going for 24 hours. The Minister should remember the extra cost which these people must necessarily incur in an effort to keep themselves warm, during the Winter.
My hon. Friends have referred to the pensions paid in other countries. I do not want to go too deeply into this, but, like my hon. Friend the Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Ross), I hope that the hon. Lady will give us the figures for
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West Germany. In some European countries retirement pensions are much higher than they are in this country. The rates in Australia, New Zealand and Canada are higher than they are here. This is not good for a country like Great Britain. I want Britain to be at the top of the league, not at the bottom. I want Britain to be the pioneer in social services. I want her to be at the top of the league for old-age pensions, sick and unemployment benefits, and not at the bottom.
Another point that is often made is the cost of the social services and pensions. No one denies that pensions cost money. I do not like going back into history, but hon. Gentlemen continually refer to 1948. The Government have doubled the contribution since 1948. In 1948 the joint contribution was 9s. 1d. It is now 18s. 2d. I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Sowerby (Mr. Houghton) that people do not mind paying for their social benefits and for the care of the old and the sick. It must be remembered that the people pay the bulk of the contributions. A comparison of the joint contribution of employee and employer and the Exchequer grant with the amount paid out shows that the bulk of the amount paid out in benefit is paid for by the people and not by the individual or, as it is often said, by the taxpayer.
Mr. John Hall: Does not the hon. Gentleman mean that future pensions may be paid for largely in the way he describes, but not pensions paid at present or those which will be paid to people retiring in the next year or two?
Mr. Hunter: This generation has a responsibility for the 5½ million old people today. These old people did not live and work in the brighter part of the century. Before the war wages were lower with mass unemployment. There were few social services. There was little opportunity to save. Today's older generation may want looking after more than younger people who have far better opportunities, but provision must always be made for retirement in old age.
By tabling the Motion my right hon. and hon. Friends have drawn the Government's attention to this great social problem. I met the Minister

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accidentally the other night. I said to him, "We have not had a pensions debate for a long while". I had no idea then that there was to be a pensions debate this week. The Motion gives the House an opportunity to discuss the needs of these people. When old-age pensioners read in the Press or hear on the wireless that Parliament has debated their needs and cares, they will know that they are not forgotten. These debates do good.
I am sorry that the hon. Member for Harwich thinks that my hon. Friends are insincere on this question. I believe that hon. Members on both sides are keen to help the old people. It is unwise to allege that people are not sincere. I believe that the Minister is sincere about wanting to help the old people. The great difference between the two parties is that we are prepared to rouse the country to pay for pensions, while hon. Members opposite think that it costs too much. We say, "We cannot afford not to do it." Hon. Members opposite say, "We cannot afford to do it."
Therefore, I hope that the Minister will take note of what has been said in the debate, namely, that we have not reached Utopia in retirement pensions or in benefits for the sick, for widows, and for the unemployed. I again remind hon. Members of the hard winter we have just had. I hope that before long the Minister will announce that there is to be an increase in retirement pensions and in National Insurance benefits.
Mr. Ridsdale: I did not accuse hon. Members opposite of being insincere. I said that the Motion was insincere.
6.23 p.m.
Mr. Charles Curran: I assure the hon. Member for Feltham (Mr. Hunter) that I certainly do not accuse him of being insincere. I recognise that he speaks with great sincerity about old people. I merely point out to him that compassion is not a monopoly of his party. However, I do not want to score any party points in talking about what we are to do for old people. I want to make some constructive suggestions.
In all the speeches of hon. Members opposite the characteristic with which I disagree most is this: they all spoke about old people as though they were a
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homogeneous unit, as though all the 5½ million old people were in a state of equal destitution, all dependent mainly or entirely on what the State gives them by way of pension or National Assistance. This is completely fallacious. Nobody who wishes to be taken seriously can argue that all or even most of the 5½ million people now drawing the retirement pension are poor.
There have been many references to the survey which has just been published by Dorothy Cole and John Utting about the economic circumstances of old people. It is a very interesting survey. It comes to the conclusion—I quote it without necessarily endorsing it—that there are nearly 2½ million old people living very near the poverty line as determined by National Assistance standards. This estimate may be far too high. But let me assume for the sake of argument that it is accurate that 2½ million pensioners are living on or near the National Assistance level. This leaves 3 million pensioners who are not. We must not continue to discuss pensions as though all the £5½ million people who are receiving them live in poverty and that the only way in which we can help them is by a flat all-round increase.
It has been suggested that pensions should be linked with the standard of living and that there should be some mechanism for making an automatic increase when the standard of living rises. This is an attractive suggestion. It can be put very persuasively. But anyone who is tempted to accept it should look carefully at its electoral implications. These 5½ million pensioners form nearly one-sixth of the entire electrate. They will increase in number and in proportion. There will be about 7 million by the end of the decade. A very large proportion of the electorate, therefore, now consists of people who are past working age: a higher proportion than ever before in our politics.
This is a fact of very great importance to politicians and anybody else considering the future of England. Does the hon. Member for Feltham think that it would be desirable or prudent to give such a very large proportion of the voters a means of contracting out of inflation? Does he not think that it would be highly dangerous to create in

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the electorate a block of voters with no concern about whether money would remain stable?
This is a dangerous policy to advocate. One of the facts about post-war politics—Socialists will agree with Tories about this—has been that in our post-war society there has not been anything like a built-in barrier against inflation. We have not had, as we ought to have had, a group with a vested interest in resisting inflation. At any rate, we have not had a group large enough to make itself felt.
It would be highly dangerous to run our pensions structure in the future on the basis that millions of people who are past working age need not bother in the least about the value of money because they will be given an automatic built-in increase no matter what hapens.
So far from looking forward, as apparently the Labour Party does, to a society in which everybody when they come to the end of their working lives will look automatically to the State for support, we should look in a completely different direction. This is the great line of rupture between members of the Labour Pary and members of the Tory Party. The kind of England I want to to see is not an England in which everybody at the end of his working life collects a State pension and lives on that. The kind of England I want is an England in which the ordinary citizen during his working life will be able to get from his job and his savings a sum sufficient to enable him to live in comfort when he is too old to work. I regard the State pension not as a permanent feature of our society but, though essential for the time being, a temporary stop-gap. I want an England in which the level of prosperity will rise to the point where people past the working age turn not wholly or even mainly to the State for their support.
Let me say to the hon. Member for Feltham that I recognise that now we have in our society a sizeable number of old people who are living in circumstances that are exceedingly difficult. Whether or not we accept the figure of 2½ million which I have already quoted—if I may interrupt myself, I hope the Minister will tell us whether he accepts that estimate and, if he does not, what sort of estimate he thinks would be fair
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—we are all bound to agree that there is in our society a sizeable number of old people who are hard-up.
They are the people who are supplementing their pensions by going for National Assistance. The question is, what are we to do for them? They are all people in their sixties, seventies or eighties. They are survivors from the age of poverty. Their working lives were spent in years when wages were low, when there was mass unemployment, when they had no opportunity to make provision for their old age. It is true that they are a dwindling army. We might refer to them if we want to be picturesque as Cinderellas of the Welfare State.
These 2½ million, or whatever the number may be—these people living on pensions plus National Assistance and the people living on pensions who could get National Assistance but who do not draw it—are the people who need help urgently. The question is, is an all-round increase the best way to help them? I do not think that it is. For their numbers are dwindling all the time and not being renewed. We have to remember that in England today more and more people are becoming members of occupational pension schemes. As their working lives end and they pass into retirement they do so as recipients of pensions derived from their work. We have had figures about this and they are well worth keeping in mind.
In 1958 the Government Actuary presented a report on occupational pension schemes. He showed that at that time there were no fewer than 8¾ million people in this country who were in occupational pension schemes. That represents about one-third of the entire labour force. The number has been increasing ever since. By this time there must be about 10 million people who are at work building up job pensions. As a consequence, when these people reach the end of their working lives they will not live wholly or mainly on a State pension. The more we can accelerate the development of job pensions the sooner we shall create an England in which people, when they get past working age, will have sufficient resources of their own to support themselves without looking to the State for aid except in a marginal number of cases.

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I agree that we have not reached that situation yet. But we must regard this problem not as a permanent factor in our society which calls for a permanent increase in pensions. We must regard it as temporary and terminating.
I come back to the question, what are we to do about the hard-up? I turn again to this Cole and Utting report on the economic circumstances of old people. It is based—as most of us who have read it will know—on a survey made in half-a-dozen regions of this country. In order to help those 2½ million people who are reported to be hard up, do we need to give more money to 3 million others who are not hard up? That question has to be faced by anyone who advocates increasing pensions. Are we to make an all-round increase and give help to people who need it while at the same time giving far more help to people who do not need it and who do not ask for it? I cannot see how anyone can argue rationally on the facts that we should make an all-round increase in pensions.
It seems to me self-evident that if we desire to help the people who are hard up we should concentrate on helping them with whatever money we can afford to spend. This money should be concentrated on them, not dispersed and wasted by giving some of it to people who are not in the same position as the minority to which I am referring. I shall not urge the Minister to make large concessions of money. I know it is easy and tempting for a politician to curry favour by saying that masses of people, all of whom have votes, should be given more money at once. I am not going to say that. But I want to put some suggestions before the Minister and ask how he reacts to them.
In the first place, one way to help some of the hard-up old people would be to tackle the long-standing grievance of the earnings rule as it applies to widows, widowed mothers and pensioners. I will not repeat the arguments which we have all heard for and against the earnings rule. We can take them as said. I am sure that the Minister has heard them so many times that he must be heartily sick of them. I should like my right hon. Friend to consider whether the time has not come for him to raise the limit of the earnings rule for
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widows and for pensioners. A widowed mother who gets a pension loses it if she goes out to work and earns more than 8 guineas a week. The earnings rule begins to operate for her as soon as she earns more than £5 a week.
This rule has led to an enormous amount of anger and bitterness. As we all know, it applies only to some kinds of widows and not to others. It can apply to a widow whose husband dies a natural death but not to a widow whose husband dies an unnatural death. It applies to the widow of a man killed at work but not to the widow of a man who is killed on his way to work. If a man is killed in battle the earnings rule does not apply to his widow. This rule is riddled with inconsistencies and has made a great many people angry. I should like to ask the Minister whether he thinks it worth preserving and what is the use of it.
We shall probably be told that the cost of scrapping it would be £2 million—that is the figure usually quoted. Will the Minister tell us whether he is satisfied with that estimate? How is that figure arrived at? If we scrapped the earnings rule in relation to pensioners we are told that it would probably cost £30 million a year. That is the estimate usually quoted. Again, I should like the Minister to say whether he is satisfied that the estimate is a sound one.
So far as I understand it such estimates are based on a sort of Civil Service crystal-gazing operation. It is argued that were the rule scrapped immediately every man on reaching the age of 65 and every woman on reaching the age of 60 would retire from work, draw a retirement pension, then go back into the labour market and earn more. Is that supposition well-founded? It seems highly debatable. I should like to know whether the Minister has any evidence to make it appear probable that this calamitous state of affairs would occur if the earnings rule were scrapped. I should like my right hon. Friend also to remember the desirability of treating widows and pensioners in a manner which most people regard as fair. I can assure him that most people nowadays regard the earnings rule as being grossly unfair.
I should like my right hon. Friend to consider the desirability of allowing

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these people to earn as much as they like. Surely it is completely pointless, especially in the 1960s, to place any impediment in the way of people working. I recognise that this rule has been built into the pensions structure and that if we scrap this piece it may make the whole jigsaw puzzle insoluble. But I should like the Minister to look at the matter again. We have been told about the difficulties now for fifteen years or so and it seems to me high time that we considered whether all these calamities would occur.
Having said that, I turn now to draw the Minister's attention to suggestions made by the authors of this Cole and Utting Report on the economic circumstances of old people. I should like the Minister to tell us whether he accepts the conclusions that they reached. When they made an examination of the conditions of the elderly poor in this country they found, in the first place, that the bulk of the elderly poor were either spinsters or widows and, secondly, that most of them were people over the age of 70. There is nothing particularly striking about either of those two things. We are all aware that women live longer than men, but usually the working life of a woman is a good deal shorter than that of a man. Poverty is therefore likely to strike her in old age.
The survey suggests that one way in which we could help the elderly poor, the hard core of poverty among the pensioners, would be either to raise the pension at the age of 70 or to raise the pension for women only. If we raise the pension for women only it might be an infringement of sex equality. Suppose that we were to make an increase in pensions at the age of 70—a once-for-all increase. Suppose we said that now, or as soon as we can afford to do so, we would increase the pensions for people now past the age of 70; not for people who will be arriving at the age of 70, but for that dwindling class of citizens, the survivors of the age of poverty—the people who have had no chance of accumulating savings and who have been the victims of social circumstances which are now disappearing. Those are the people in urgent need of help. They are a dwindling minority. Is it financially practicable to talk of a once-for-all
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increase in the pension at the age of 70 so as to lift them above the National Assistance line?
I am asking not answering that question. Obviously, a large number people and a large sum of money ate involved. But I should like the Minister to tell us what would be the probable cost of doing it? If the Minister could give us the figure we could discuss how the money could be raised. I think that if the Minister announced that it would cost £X million it would not be difficult to get most of us in this country to accept some kind of voluntary tax in order to raise the money. I am sure that there are a great many people who would be very happy to accept some sort of personal levy or voluntary imposition on themselves in order to raise the money necessary to put this dwindling group of over-70s out of the reach of poverty.
Mr. Charles Loughlin: I have a great deal of sympathy with the point made by the lion. Member, but I am a little puzzled how we would arrive at a voluntary levy. It would hardly be practicable. It would be essential for the Government to impose taxation to meet the position that he has outlined.
Mr. Curran: I am not proposing a policy. I am asking the Minister to consider what we can do to help this diminishing minority. I do not believe that the right way to help them is to make an all-round increase in pensions. If we were to do that we should be giving most of the extra money to people who do not need it and only a small part to the people who do. If we accept the figures that have been given, nearly two-thirds of the money would go to the people who do not need it and only one-third to the people who do.
I ask the Minister what would be the cost of a once-for-all increase in pensions for people over 70 and whether he regards this as something financially practicable at the present time. If it is financially impracticable, I should like him to consider if there is any other way in which citizens themselves can do the job. This is a matter of concern to all of us. The presence in our society of this group of people, all of them elderly, all of them hard up, offends the conscience of a great

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many of us. I should like to see some method by which we can display our sympathy for them—and not merely sympathise with them but help them.
I recognise how easy it is to advocate all-round increases and distribution of public money without considering how the money is to be obtained or the inflationary results. It is undoubtedly true that the most effective way in which the Government can help pensioners is by keeping the value of money stable. It would indeed be a mockery for the State to give large sums of money to pensioners, if by doing so its value became less. Therefore, I am heartily in support of the Amendment.
The record of the Government towards the pensioner can be defended with confidence anywhere in this country. I have no doubt that the Government are determined to continue to secure that pensioners share in our rising standard of living. While I agree with that, however, I ask my right hon. Friend the Minister to say how he proposes to deal with the temporary problem, that will not recur, of the vanishing minority who are over the age of 70. Is it possible for my right hon. Friend to indicate to us, first, what it would cost to help them and, secondly, whether it is practicable for the Government to do so?
6.50 p.m.
Mr. John McKay: The hon. Member for Uxbridge (Mr. Curran) has given the Minister a tremendous amount of work and it will be some time before the hon. Member can be given a proper answer. This is not, however, a debate for the purpose of examining all the little details about earnings, about people reaching the age of 70 and miscellaneous changes in the pension position. What we need is a new psychology towards pensions and, of course, towards the sick and the injured.
In her speech this afternoon, the Joint Parliamentary Secretary seemed pleased to try to impress upon us that pensions have risen by the same percentage as earnings. It was a good point in one sense, but when we examine the actual figures the position does not appear to be so good. In 1948, the average level of earnings was 138s. and the pension 42s. The difference between pension and earnings was 96s. Today, however,
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with earnings at a level of 307s., the pension is 92s. 6d., the difference between the two being, not 96s., but 214s. Therefore, while the percentage rise may be fairly similar, the cash difference is tremendous. That is not a satisfactory position. It is one which cries out for a change in the structure of pension arrangements so that the pension is brought much nearer to the average level of earnings of the community.
The fact that a new standard is required has been emphasised by the great amount of discussion concerning the Common Market and our entry into the European Economic Community. There is no doubt that the information that we receive about the attitude towards pensions in the E.E.C. countries brings the majority of people to the conclusion that the time has arrived to make a completely new structure for pensions and other National Insurance benefits.
Another point arises clearly when we consider other countries and their ability to pay bigger pensions. As hon. Members have said, we cannot have all the things we want in this respect unless we pay more for them. This is a question which touches the spirit of the people. There seems to be a general attitude in the E.E.C. countries to do more, not only by the workers, but by employers of labour.
In Germany, for example, the position seems to be accepted that workers contribute 12 per cent. of their wages and employers pay a figure of 15·2 per cent. What kind of attitude would employers in this country take if we asked them to pay 15 per cent. and what would be the attitude of the workers if they were asked to pay 12 per cent.? Whatever the contributions in Germany or elsewhere, however, the facts emphasise the need for a change in this country if we want to satisfy the workers and if we want their support at election time. It is high time that the Minister put on his studying cap to see what he can do before the next election, because if the Government want the country to have the right spirit, a change must be made.
Let us consider various factors concerning pensions. Again, my comparison is with Germany. By a 12 per cent. contribution, a Germany worker earning the equivalent of £15 a week would pay

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36s. and his employers 45s. That is a rather stiff proposition, but let us compare the position of a worker with a similar wage in this country, using the basis of the graduated scheme that the Government introduced in 1959.
In this country, a £15-a-week man pays a contribution of 15s. 8d. After 47 years, he will get about £4 12s. 6d. a week for himself and his wife, plus £2 1s. under the graduated scheme, making a total pension of £6 13s. 6d. a week. In Germany, however, a contributor to the scheme is credited with a figure of 1·5 per cent. a year, with the result that at the end of the same period of 47 years, he would get 70 per cent. of his wages as pension—not £6 13s., but £10 10s. a week. Therefore, whatever our views about the level of pension which is reasonable and about how much the workers should pay, there is a glaring necessity for a change in our whole pension scheme.
I have studied these matters for a long time, but I have had difficulty in reaching the right conclusions. I have consulted pensioners, who have told me what would be the result of my proposed scheme. A disgraceful position exists in this country concerning some 1,322,000 insured people in 1960 who had paid for their pensions. Yet when they receive it they find themselves in such difficulty that they had to attend the National Assistance office and go through a means test to enable themselves to live.
When as a nation we examine what kind of scheme we should produce for old people, this is not a situation which we should encourage. It should not be a permanent state of affairs that men who have been paying for years into National Insurance should find at a time when they can no longer work that they have to apply for National Assistance and go through a means test. No one cried out more against the means test than the Labour Party, but it still exists today and perhaps to a greater extent than it did when complaints were being made about it throughout the country.
I believe that in any National Insurance scheme, the principle should be that men who have paid for years and years into State insurance should receive a pension of such a character that they need not apply for National Assistance. It would seem that many hon. Members
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opposite acclaim the idea that more people ought to be applying for National Assistance. The idea is being encouraged that the best thing to do is to give a rather smaller pension and then let the people who are most in need obtain the necessary supplement to their income from National Assistance. I am certain that many of the people who argue in that way would have the strongest possible objection if through unfortunate circumstances they had to apply for help beyond their ordinary income.
In the past, in all amendments made to insurance schemes, the Government have examined people's needs and have changed benefit scales and have spread the benefits over the whole "bag of tricks", the widow, the woman with children and so on. There have been all kinds of variations in benefits during the past 14 years. To all intents and purposes the variations which are applied to the differing conditions of different families have now been finalised.
Does the country wish, or does either political party desire, to make a change in the situation so that without giving tremendous sums to the beneficiaries all these people are taken away from National Assistance? I have a case in my constituency of two old people who have not worked for years owing to disabilities. Their daughter has written to me about them. They have a very small income. They could receive benefit from National Assistance but they have what is called "pride" and they will not apply. Many people have written about such cases and there have been investigations in various parts of the country. There is no doubt that a tremendously good and absolutely necessary job has been done by the National Assistance Board, but despite that there are thousands of old people who have such an independent spirit—misguided to my mind—that they will not apply for help. Officials and their own relatives interview them and try to persuade them to apply for what is their legal right but they will not. They have an old-fashioned idea about that kind of thing.
It is absolutely essential that when we reconstruct National Insurance we should make changes to ensure that an insured man who has been paying for a long period should not have to apply for National Assistance. I have gone into

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this whole matter, more or less as a hobby, for some years and I find that, however much we explain that we are sympathetic to old people, if we have a real desire to help them the only improvement will come if we are prepared to do what is necessary to take these old people as a whole off the National Assistance level. I am convinced, after going into the whole matter, that this might be done if we introduced my suggested 4 per cent. levy on wage earners, a 5½ per cent. levy on employee and a certain 7 per cent. on the self-employed.
I recognise the difficulty for the State. More money is being lost by the State through National Insurance than most people realise. The information has been given by Answers to Questions in the House that in 1958, for example, tax relief in respect of insurance represented a loss of revenue of £183 million. This was tax relief given to employers and the insurance people. There is no doubt that about £210 million will be given in tax relief for 1961, despite the fact that in the meantime Income Tax was reduced by about 9d. in the £. I would not change this system, however, because I know from past experience that it cuts in a number of ways and that to change it would cause a great upheaval. When a 5½ per cent. levy on employers is mentioned it should be remembered that, however much employers complain, about half the money which they pay to National Insurance or to the National Health Service is returned to them in the shape of tax relief. In reality, their 5½ per cent. is little more than 2½ per cent. A similar factor applies to the higher income groups, which is where the grouse will come.
The ordinary worker who may have to pay 4 per cent., inclusive, for National Insurance will not make much fuss about it if he knows he will get value for money and that pensioners will receive far more than they are having at the moment. If they know that their own relatives or other people in difficult circumstances will have more substantial pensions to live on, the ordinary workers will be quite prepared to pay a good deal more for that purpose.
Are we prepared to do it as a nation? The ordinary workers are prepared to do it. People with higher incomes may grouse, but they will receive fairly sub-
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stantial tax reliefs which will reduce their commitment. There is no doubt that they will pay vastly more as a contribution because of their higher incomes, but one might overcome that source of complaint by raising the amount upon which tax relief is given. It might be done in blocks. At the moment it is £18. It might be taken to £25 and then to £40, according to the level of income, in order to ease that situation in a sense.
It is a complicated matter both financially and technically, but I am quite satisfied, after devoting a good deal of work to it, that 4 per cent., 5½ per cent. and 7 per cent. in the classes I have suggested, with the State paying about one-seventh of the total contributions, would do the job. It may be thought that a good deal more money will be required. I have gone into the figures and worked them out for about ten years. One-seventh of the contributions made, according to the various rates, would not after ten years involve much extra money from the State, especially if one takes into consideration the £81 million now being paid to National Insurance beneficiaries for National Assistance which would be saved. After about tern years, the extra liability of the State would be only about £30 million, although, of course, there would be a small addition because of the increased contributions earned as time went on. However, taking all those matters into consideration, I suggest that it is a scheme which should be considered carefully.
My suggestion is that the basic pension should be raised to £5 plus, and that the same should be done for the basic rate in respect of sickness and unemployment. Let all the complicated additions in respect of wife, children and other dependents remain absolutely as they are. In my view, we should concentrate on raising the basic rate. Let us put all the money we can afford into that, because in that way we shall do the job which needs to be done and provide £5 as a basic rate to all those who are now receiving 57s. 6d. In my view, the whole scheme could be worked on the basis of the proportions I have already given, 4 per cent., 5½ per cent., 7 per cent. and one-seventh of the contributions from the State. In that way,

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all our pensioners could be kept away from National Assistance. If one wanted to pay more, of course, more contributions would have to be paid.
This idea may not suit the Minister. It may not suit the Labour Party, which may take a larger view and want to do more. Some people might want the State to do more. However, I ask the Minister to consider it and try to work out a system of that kind, concentrating on the basic rate and the percentage increases. Perhaps, before the next election, he could bring it in as the insurance system for the future so that the benefits rise by 2 per cent. when wages salaries and Forces pay rise by 2½ per cent.
7.16 p.m.
Mr. T. L. Iremonger: I am glad to follow the hon. Member for Wallsend (Mr. MacKay) because, although I am not absolutely confident that I followed the trend of what he was saying with very great precision, in spite of trying very hard to do so, as far as I could gather my views are almost diametrically opposed to his. I propose to give my right hon. Friend precisely contrary advice. The hon. Gentleman said that this subject was something of a hobby of his. I am glad to think that my right hon. Friend has a more serious commitment.
I shall submit to the House certain observations, first, on the realities of the social security system; second, on the perspective in which we should see the whole problem of pensions in an expanding economy; third, on the emphasis which I shall urge my right hon. Friend to put on the various commitments which come to him; and fourth, on a matter of detail about which I have a question to ask.
I ask the House to note the phraseology of the Opposition Motion and contrast with it that of the early day Motion on the Order Paper which calls for an increase for retired pensioners and widows. I think that the House as a whole must be moving in the right direction, because we have a distinct improvement here. I am sorry to see that the Opposition Motion still refers to pensions for old people, but I am glad that the unofficial Motion refers to retirement pensions. The House will be well
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advised, I believe, to be a little more precise than it has been hitherto and follow the example of the Motion, recognising that there are no such things as old-age pensions and welcoming the fact that the phrase does not appear anywhere on the Order Paper now.
It is high time that the phrase was abandoned. The truth is that there is no such thing as an old-age pension. There is no such thing as a retirement pension. There is no such thing as a widow's pension, that is to say, a pension paid in respect of widowhood as such. All these pensions are pensions paid in respect of unemployability. That is the underlying principle which inspired the recommendations of the Beveridge Report. It may be unemployability because of age or—
Mr. Harold Davies: The hon. Gentleman could not apply that point about unemployability to a colonial civil servant who had served his country well and who, on retiring at 40 years of age, had been thought worthy to receive a retirement pension. That has nothing to do at all with unemployability.
Mr. Iremonger: I think the hon. Gentleman is a little confused between a contractual pension and one inside the State scheme. We are talking about the State social security system in respect of National Insurance, and the principle that underlies the whole State National Insurance system is that people are paid pensions in respect of unemployability, either because of age, when they have retired, or because of widowhood, not in the sense of widowhood, but in the sense that because a woman has been out of the employment market for a long time she is, therefore, presumably unable to enter it again. That is the basic justification for the earnings rule, which is attacked on both sides of the House, but if we sacrificed it we should make nonsense of the proposition on which the whole scheme is based. I think there is much misunderstanding about this, and it would be as well if the House and the country could get this point quite clear.
Mr. James Dempsey: The hon. Gentleman does not understand it.
Mr. Iremonger: The hon. Member says that I do not understand it, and he

1201
is perfectly entitled to give his own interpretation to the House. I would only say in reply to him that if I do not understand it neither did the framers of the Beveridge Report nor did his hon. and right hon. Friends who were responsible for administering the scheme when they were in power. My analysis is, I am quite sure, fundamentally sound.
I should like to put to my right hon. Friend the perspective in which I suggest the whole problem should be seen. The Beveridge Report was conceived in and born of deflation, and it has been nurtured and come to fulfilment in an expanding economy and in an era of inflation, and that is the root of the greater part of the political troubles that we have in administering the pensions scheme. I think it was not at all inappropriate that my hon. Friend the Member for Yeovil (Mr. Peyton) should have intervened in the proceedings in the way he did. The important thing which this House and the Government have to do is to keep the British economy strong and to ensure that the British £ maintains its present value.
Mr. Dempsey: What about the value of the pensions?
Mr. Iremonger: The hon. Gentleman makes my point for me, because if the £ does not hold its value the pension will not. One of the factors which makes the £ lose its value is Government expenditure, which is what was referred to by my hon. Friend the Member for Yeovil.
Mr. Dempsey: Is not a sound economic policy the best way to preserve the £? What I understand the hon. Gentleman to be arguing is that there is no such thing as a pension and that people get benefits because they are unemployed. This is nonsense, because a person over 70 and still employed can still receive the retirement pension.
Mr. Iremonger: The hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well that he is then deemed to be unemployed. If the hon. Gentleman wants to continue to argue this, he will be only detaining the House.
Mr. Ross: The hon. Gentleman's whole argument is destroyed by the fact that we have the earnings rule which cannot apply to people who are unemployable.
Mr. Iremonger: It is precisely because those who are disqualified by the earnings rule are in fact in employment and are not retired that they are not eligible for the retirement pension. I am surprised to hear an hon. Member on the Front Bench opposite, let alone back benchers, so absolutely adrift on the fundamental principle.
Mr. Ross: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the application of the earnings rule is such that it merely reduces, in certain circumstances, the pension which continues to be paid?
Mr. Iremonger: Yes, but it reduces it because the pensioner is in employment and earning, and, therefore, is not retired. I do not see any point in arguing round this. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] If the hon. Gentleman likes to look at the OFFICIAL REPORT, he will find that the point I am making is absolutely sound and that the whole of our social security system is based upon it.
I was saying that my right hon. Friend must see his commitments to the pensioners in the light of his duty to the Government as a whole to maintain a sound economic policy. Of course, the commitments which he enters into are a large factor in Government expenditure, and Government expenditure is a large factor in the amount of investment which the economy can afford, and, in the inflation, the necessity for holding the value of the £. Therefore, my right hon. Friend will be doing a very poor service to the pensioners and to the country as a whole if he fails to see that his first duty is to fit in with the economic policy of the Government and to maintain the value of the £, because the passenger who gets into the boat at the cost of sinking it has paid a very high price for his passage.
I should like now to suggest to my right hon. Friend what I think should be the emphasis and the priorities for sharing out what resources may be available for pensions. The Motion calls for what are, in effect, indiscriminate increases in pensions, and it is my submission that this is a wasteful policy and not in the best interests of those most in need. Many pensioners are in no need, most are in very small need, and a few are in great need, and these latter are the ones to whom all available help

1203
should be directed. If we try to help all pensioners indiscriminately we shall penalise those to whom our help should primarily be directed. When the time comes when he has extra resources to spare, my right hon. Friend should think well who should have them.
My own order of priorities would be these. First, those who are over 70 should have increases; secondly, the widows and widowed mothers; and, thirdly, the level of National Assistance should be raised. These are the three directions in which increases in benefits would bring the most good. I would not say, with all respect to my hon. Friend the Member for Uxbridge (Mr. Curran), that the earnings rule should have a very high priority. I should have thought that if my right hon. Friend had £40 million or £50 million, or whatever it may be, available, which might enable him to scrap the earnings rule, he might think of better things to do with it.
There is one point of detail which I should like him to consider in regard to the widows' pension. I have found that widows who were widowed just before reaching the age of 50 find it intolerable that people who, for all practical purposes, are in almost exactly the same circumstances can get pensions while they themselves get no pension at all, other than the thirteen weeks' benefit and so on. To take an extreme case, there were twins born with 24 hours between them, which is quite possible, and who lost their husbands on the same day. One who would have been just short of 50 got no pension at all, while the second got the whole pension. That is the inevitable result of having to draw a line somewhere.
We recognise that the scheme has to draw a line, but I am sure that it would be possible to work out a scheme whereby the benefits for widows' pensions could be somewhat tapered. I wonder if it would be possible, when my right hon. Friend wants to increase the widows' benefit, to pay some extra benefit to widows who are widowed after the age of 52, and then to graduate the benefit from the age of 52 downwards to 50, and then, again, to institute a benefit which would apply to widows from the age of 50 and down to 48, going up by 5s. stages, or whatever sum
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he liked, so that, at least, the contrast between them would not be quite so painful. The widow who was widowed one day short of the qualifying age for any particular stage in the pension would contrast her situation not with that of a person receiving the highest pension but with that of a person having only a slightly higher pension, being in the next higher age bracket.
That would go a long way to ameliorate the feelings of outraged injustice on the part of many widows. This point is not likely ever to give rise to a large-scale political agitation, because inevitably those who are widowed sufficiently close to the age of 50 to feel this sense of injustice are very few in number, and the pressures that they can bring to bear are politically negligible. But it is not a good thing that the scheme should lose the confidence of even such a small number of people who really do not understand the principle on which it is based.
Hon. Members opposite were very impatient with me when I talked about the principle of unemployability, but I submit to them, sincerely, that when they are faced with widows who were widowed only a short time ago they will not be able to explain to them the difference between their treatment and the treatment give to their slightly older sisters without deploying the argument that I have put forward. They must say, "Your pension is not paid to you in respect of widowhood. It is called a widow's pension, but it is not. Your pension is paid in respect of a putative unemployability, and you are considered to be able to enter the employment field because you were widowed just short of the age of 50, whereas somebody else who was widowed a few days after having reached that age is considered unable to get a job."
We must accept the fact that the whole pension system is based upon the principle of unemployability. It is unfortunate that there should be such a sharp difference in respect of people who do not understand the principle, and who, with the best will in the world, never will understand it. I would rather see the widowed mother's pension applied over a fairly narrow age bracket of four or five years, with small increases according to age, so that the person who

1205
receives nothing will contrast her situation with that of a person who receives a comparatively small pension rather than with one who receives the full pension.
I want to reassure my right hon. Friend that hon. Members on this side of the House are not deceived by the quite legitimate political motives behind the Motion. The claim of hon. Members opposite is a little earthy—but, then, they could not be sure when my right hon. Friend would be able to move, and they wanted to be sure that they got in now rather than be caught, as they have been before, rather anxiously pretending that they would have brought in a larger increase, and sooner. I am confident that my right hon. Friend, with due regard to the interests of the economy, has a fairly shrewd idea of what he will be able to do and when he will be able to do it. I am sure that it will be a fair and generous increase.
I hope that he will make it discriminating. I say that purposely, in absolute contrast to what hon. Members opposite have said. I hope that he will apply what he has to carefully selected categories of those in need, so that instead of a little money being given to many people who do not need it, a substantial amount will be given to those who need it most.
Mr. Dempsey: When?
Mr. Iremonger: I am prepared to leave that to the judgment of my right hon. Friend and—hon. Members can take this in any way they like—I am sure that his judgment will be a sound one.
I am proud to oppose the Motion and to support the Government Amendment. I am proud of the Government's record in the past, and for the future I am confident that we shall continue to have a realistic, responsible, honest and humane pensions policy.
7.34 p.m.
Mr. A. V. Hilton: The hon. Member for llford, North (Mr. Iremonger) ended his speech on a note far better than that on which he began it, except for his closing remark, that he was pleased to oppose the Motion. I want to refresh the minds of hon. Members as to the wording of the Motion. It says:
"That this House deplores the lack of any action by Her Majesty's Government to grant
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increases to old people, widows and others on National Insurance benefits and National Assistance to compensate for higher prices and to ensure their fair share of the national income."
That is what the hon. Member utterly opposes. For the life of me, I cannot see how any hon. Member could oppose it.
Reference has already been made to the charming way in which the Parliamentary Secretary opened the debate from her side. It is true that the hon. Lady made a charming speech, but charming speeches do not fill the bellies of pensioners, widows and others who are in need, and who are referred to in the Motion. I am sure that, like myself, the pensioners will be very disappointed in the words of the hon. Lady, when, in conclusion, she said that her right hon. Friend had no proposals at present for any additional help to be given to pensioners.
Many figures have been quoted by hon. Members on both sides of the House. Figures can tell many stories. They are quoted by bon. Members on this side, and opposed by hon. Members opposite, or vice versa. The only figures I shall quote concern retirement pensions. The pension for a single person is now 57s. 6d. a week and, for the married couple, £4 12s. 6d. a week. This is what we want to talk about this afternoon. Hon. Members on this side of the House claim that those figures are far too low, in view of the present high cost of living and the fact that it is nearly a year since pensions were last increased.
In my constituency I live among many old-age and other pensioners, whom I am proud to call my friends. I know from first hand how pensioners have to struggle to eke out the meagre sum they receive. I cannot help drawing comparisons. Not very long ago a number of my hon. Friends and I were in the Tea Room of the House when an hon. Member opposite came in and wanted to pair. That was fair enough. But when somebody asked, "Why do you want to pair?" the hon. Member opposite said, "I have a ticket for a special dinner. I must go. The ticket cost me six guineas." I cannot help comparing that with the miserable pittance of 57s. 6d. a week or £4 12s. 6d. a week respectively, given to a single pensioner or a married couple.

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I am aware of the difficulties many of my constituents have in living on their pensions. Like hon. Members on both sides of the House, I hold weekend meetings, and although at present there are many other important issues to talk about—the Common Market, the pay pause and nuclear tests—what most people in my constituency are interested in is pensions and the high cost of living. This has been borne out in the recent Lincoln by-election.
My hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Exchange (Mrs. Braddock) was in Lincoln a week ago, and she has reported that, although many people in the city were on a four-day week, and that while she was there the engineers had a one-day token strike, the main issue she came across when canvassing was the plight of the old-age pensioners. I am sure that she can vouch for what I have said. She had the same experience a few days later, in Orpington. We all find this the main topic amongst the ordinary people of our constituences. It is priority No. 1 to them.
My hon. Friend the Member for Feltham (Mr. Hunter) mentioned, in his interesting and sincere speech, the plight of pensioners especially at this time of the year, during the cold spell that we have had. Only last Friday, one of my constituents, a widowed pensioner, asked me if I could help her to get National Assistance. She told me that she had a very old bedridden lady living with her and that they were spending 32s. a week on coal alone. Last year, the Government doubled the prescription charge to 2s. and this, too, is an additional burden on such people. There is, without doubt, a case for an immediate increase in pensions.
Mention has been made of the Government's graduated pension scheme. I represent what is almost completely an agricultural area, where wages are very low. One hon. Member opposite has suggested that the workers are able to save against the time of retirement. Some are certainly able to do so, but in my constituency they are the exception and not the rule. It is only a fortnight ago that the national minimum wage of farm workers was increased to an all-time record of £8 15s. for a 46-hour week. How much would the right hon.
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Gentleman expect farm workers to save out of such a wage? My hon. Friend the Member for Feltham was quite right when he said that only about 40 per cent. of the workers are able to save for retirement.
Because of the minimum wage, many farm workers do not qualify to take part in the graduated pension scheme. A man has to earn £9 a week or more in order to participate. It has been left to the National Farmers' Union to introduce a private pension scheme to give farm workers some encouragement for his future retirement. The Government, and the Minister, in particular, should be ashamed that farm workers, despite their splendid record of service to the country, are excluded from the scheme because of the low wages they are getting. The N.F.U. has done a splendid service in introducing the private scheme.
The people we are pleading for are those who have worked for most of their lives. They have worked to give us this wonderful country which hon. Members opposite are so proud to remind us about—except on occasions like this when they think there is not enough in the "kitty" to give pension increases. But it was these "old faithfuls" who helped to bring about the better state o£ affairs in our country, and all we ask is that they should have a fair share of the national income. No one could object to that after thinking about it seriously.
We are not the only ones to realise that the pensioners have a case for an increase. Just before Christmas, the Prime Minister made a special radio and television appeal for additional help to be given to old people over Christmas.
Mrs. Harriet Slater: He asked people to invite them into their homes.
Mr. Hilton: Exactly. The Prime Minister's appeal was proof positive that there is a case for an increase.
One answer given by hon. Members opposite is that, if pensioners feel they have not enough money, they can always apply for National Assistance. Many of them do, but many more refuse to do so because they consider that

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it is beneath their dignity to go to the National Assistance office and claim what is their right. I think that they are wrong, and I regret that their pride prevents them from getting a little extra in this way; but the fact remains that we all know that they do not do it because of what they refer to as dignity. We should not blame the old people for this. They are the survivors of the 'twenties and the 'thirties; they remember the means test and believe that even the National Assistance Board imposes such a test.
The hon. Member for Ilford, North, suggested that those over 70 years of age have a stronger claim, and that there might be an increase for them.
Mr. Iremonger: Among others.
Mr. Hilton: Yes. I entirely disagree with this idea, because many very deserving pensioners would still not receive the increase to which they were entitled.
One or two hon. Members have spoken about farming subsidies. We shall be discussing those on Thursday, but I wish to use them as an example. Farming subsidies are paid to all those farmers who are entitled to them. There is no discrimination. The fact that a man is a large, wealthy farmer, with other industrial interests, or a small family farmer, who works during all the hours of daylight and during many hours of darkness, makes no difference. Right hon. and hon. Members do not hesitate to support this principle in farming, and I entirely agree with it. Farmers are entitled to it, whether they are big, wealthy farmers, or small struggling farmers.
The same principle should apply to pensioners. There should be no discrimination in the matter. I agree that the need of some old people and some pensioners is greater than that of others, but, if they are entitled to pension, there should be no discrimination between them.
7.52 p.m.
Mr. Percy Browne: I agree with the hon. Member for Norfolk, South-West (Mr. Hilton) that the subject of the social services generally is talked about more than any other in my constituency as in his. I should like
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to return later to farming subsidies as an example of discrimination in increases in pensions. I should have thought that that was a bad example if a new age limit—in this case 70—is set above which pensions might be increased.
I am on record as saying during the Second Reading of the National Insurance Bill in November, 1960, that I felt that the increase proposed at that time and carried into effect the following spring was too small. Since then, the cost of living has increased and one is therefore bound to say that it is still insufficient. But that does not mean that I intend to support the Opposition's Motion. To my mind, it is a thoroughly bad Motion for this reason, that it suggests that pensions should be increased but does not suggest how they should be increased. If we were to have a free vote in the House, which is frequently suggested, on whether there should be an increase in pensions, automatically the answer would be "Yes". But Parliament must not only decide whether there should be an increase but also will the means, and there is no mention in this Motion of how that can be done.
So long as we stick to this, to my mind, outdated idea or principle of equal contribution, equal benefit—outdated partly because anyone who has contributed throughout the time that he could have contributed is entitled only to 9s. a week—the money must be raised for a blanketing increase in one of two ways—either from the Exchequer, or, as in the present accepted form, from the Exchequer, the employer and the employee. If the money comes from the Exchequer and we upset the present balance of roughly a quarter of the fund, £185 million a year, being paid by the Exchequer, then one of two things must happen. The first is that we must have different priorities. To my mind, this is essential. I do not wish to argue about whether it is better to increase pensions than to build Cunarders, but it is high time that we had a real look at the social service payments by the Exchequer.
I have made a plea for this in February last year, and I should like to repeat it tonight. This problem is a political hot potato, and an independent committee should be set up to consider it.

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In support of this, I should like to quote one sentence from the Plowden Committee's Report:
"The social changes of the last fifteen years have altered the incidence of hardship so that there now may well be excessive social services for some purposes and inadequate ones for others."
There is another way by which the Exchequer could produce more money, namely, by an increase in productivity, as suggested by the hon. Member for Sowerby (Mr. Houghton). I accept that this is one way to do it, but I think that the hon. Gentleman would agree that if we are to do that we must export more. If we do that, we must first steady the cost of living.
The steadying of the cost of living and the maintenance of the value of the pound is, as has been said by my hon. Friends, far and away the best service that we can render to pensioners and to those living on fixed incomes.
Mr. John McCann: The Government have not done it in the last ten years.
Mr. Browne: I said that the best thing that we can do for pensioners is to steady the cost of living.
The alternative is to increase contributions. We can do that in the way in which it has been done in the past.
I noticed a quotation from the Guardian which the hon. Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Ross) used in his winding-up speech in a debate on the National Insurance Bill that we had in November a year ago. The Guardian suggested that the rise then contemplated would be comparatively smaller
"than that enjoyed by the more prosperous four-fifths of the community which lives off earnings on the 1960 scale. To have held the pension in the same relation to earnings as it had in 1957, the standard benefit of a single person would have to be raised by £1 and for a married couple by 30s."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 15th November, 1960; Vol. 630, c. 322.]
My right hon. Friend the Minister, in introducing the Bill, said:
"The House may say, 'One has to take rates of earnings.' I am not sure that that is right, because they tend to fluctuate more."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 15th November, 1960; Vol. 630, c. 225.]
He suggested, therefore, that we should work on the basis of wage rates rather
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than of earnings. My hon. Friend the Joint Parliamentary Secretary said this afternoon that she thought that we should deal with the matter on the basis of earnings rather than of wages. I agree with what my right hon. Friend said eighteen months ago. Wages must be the criterion. I shall come to the question of wage rates in a moment.
In my part of the country, as in the part of the country of the hon. Member for Norfolk, South-West, average earnings might reach £10, well over £5 below the national average. Wage rates are approximately £9. Therefore, one asks: is it fair and reasonable to expect the wage earner on the lower wage rates to increase his contribution in order to give a blanketing increase to all pensioners, irrespective of whether they need it or not?
The alternative way to increase contributions is through the employer only. This is relevant at the moment because of the system on the Continent. But, as has been said and as the House well knows, the figure of Exchequer expenditure together with employers' contributions in this country and the figure of Exchequer expenditure together with employers' contributions on the Continent are almost equal.
I suppose that one has really answered the question oneself as to whether the employer should increase his contribution, whether the Exchequer should increase its contribution, or whether the system should be left as it is. If we go into the Common Market, no doubt there will be pressure to increase the employers' contribution and the Exchequer contribution will decrease. But I believe that there are one or two other ways in which we can do what we all wish, namely, to increase the benefits to those who need them. I do not want to be monotonous or inelastic or as repetitious as a modern pop record and go over what I have said before, but I must briefly reiterate that the insurance principle as we have known it has already been breached, not only in the amount the pensioner would receive, but we no longer have a straightforward flat-rate pension scheme in existence.
I do not believe that it is sensible, therefore, for the low wage earner to have to increase his contributions to provide a larger pension for those who

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do not need it. I would have thought that if this was agreed then a universal means test—such as everyone must undergo for Income Tax purposes—would be more acceptable than a discriminatory means test.
It is in this connection that we come to the question of farmers and subsidies. I think the hon. Member for Norfolk, South-West will agree that certain subsidies are and have in the past been loaded towards the small farmer, and deliberately so. There are such things as the Small Farmers' Scheme which has been introduced for this purpose. In the last few years, generally speaking, the cuts in subsidies have taken place in the crops which the large farmer grows compared with those grown by the small farmer, and I say that from practical experience as a farmer.
Mr. Loughlin: I appreciate the point the hon. Gentleman is making, but my hon. Friend the Member for Norfolk, South-West (Mr. Hilton) was making the point that the principle was different. While it may be true that certain crops have had reduced subsidies in different price reviews, the principle is the same; there is no means test and it is not a question of whether the farmer is big or small. Would the hon. Gentleman not agree that in the application of all subsidy policy the Government apply the same principle: that there is no means test? An illustration of this is the White Fish Bill by which Associated Fisheries, the largest combine in the trawling industry, will receive £100,000 in one year.
Mr. Browne: I accept that there is a difference in principle, but not for the farmers. We are not having a farming debate and I cannot develop this point too far, but the Small Farmers' Scheme is kept within a certain group, deals solely with the farmers in that group and is, in fact, concerned with 100 acres at the top and 20 at the bottom. The principle is there and so, for farming, this is not just a breach of principle as was made out by the hon. Member for Norfolk, South-West.
I accept what the hon. Member for Gloucestershire, West (Mr. Loughlin) said about the other subsidies, and I have never suggested anything to the contrary. I was arguing the parallel principle mentioned by the hon. Member for Norfolk, South-West.
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If the suggestion I have made is not acceptable, I join with my hon. Friends who have suggested that, since we know that as people get older they need more—more heat, they are less able to look after themselves, their clothes are wearing out, as are their utensils—there is a case for a discriminatory increase in the basic pension for pensioners aged 70 and over. It is interesting to note the age groups among pensioners who have recourse to National Assistance, because 13·8 per cent. of men between 65 and 69 and 29·7 per cent. of men over 80 have recourse to National Assistance. Meanwhile, 20·6 per cent. of women between 60 and 65 seek National Assistance and, when they reach the age of 80 and over, that figure rises to 30 per cent.
Whichever way it is done, whether general or selective, there is no doubt that there is real need today for an increase of some sort for a comparative percentage of pensioners. We must do something before next winter, and I urge my right hon. Friend to set up an independent committee to look at the level of contributions and Exchequer payments throughout the social services, this committee to report urgently and at the same time to initiate an analysis of the position of old people throughout the country, as suggested in the report written by Mrs. Cole.
Regarding matters of National Assistance, I hope that the two bites which my right hon. Friend took at the National Assistance rates and the increases he made on the last occasion will not be repeated in the same way, for he put the pension up but at the same time he did not proportionately increase the National Assistance rates. This is not just a political issue, for many people found this. Despite the two increases—of 10s. and 14s.—when it came to the increase last April it meant that those who had been enjoying the increase in National Assistance benefits of the previous 18 months found that it appeared as if their pensions went up by only a very small amount. I am, of course, referring to those on National Assistance.
Mr. Raymond Gower: Does not a difficult and regrettable position arise from the fact that the National Assistance Board, by virtue of its terms

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of reference and constitution, sometimes makes a recommendation for an increase in assistance at a time when an increase in the standard rate of insurance benefit is not contemplated?
Mr. Browne: Surely the Minister is in control of this outfit? Surely he is the person who eventually decides whether or not there should be an increase? I am suggesting that even if he gets such recommendations in the future the two should be tied together. I am entirely in favour of the National Assistance scales being raised separately, but only so long as they are raised equally with pensions when there is an increase in pension.
Concerning disregards, there seem to be two things wrong, which I hope my right hon. Friend will put right. First, someone who draws an external pension, as opposed to someone who is earning money, is worse off. In other words, the disregard for a supplementary pension is only 30s. while it is 40s. for an earner. Secondly and more important is the question of capital disregards. I realise that they were put up in 1959, that the first £100 is disregarded and that the next £600 is also disregarded and that, for that £600, 6d. a week is the income which is considered to be the amount which should be earned on the capital.
That is not very much if the capital is invested, say, in undated Government stock, and I ask my right hon. Friend whether it is tone nominal value or the actual value at the time the National Assistance officer sees a particular person. This point of capital disregards and this anomaly is well illustrated on page 93 of the Survey. I have worked out that, on the basis that it is 6d. income on every £25 capital, this capital would have to be earning 5¼ per cent. I know from letters I have received from people who have their money invested in undated Government stock, War Loan and the like that many old-age pensioners have their money in this sort of stock and are getting 3½ per cent. So I worked it out that while in respect of the disregards scale the National Assistance Board says that a pensioner can have 14s. per week disregarded on this basis, if one has £700 invested in 3½ per cent. stock the chances are that one gets
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about 8s. 8d. a week, so that the combined total of a single pension with the income comes to 66s. 2d.
It can be argued—it is argued, understandably—that one should not through National Assistance help those with considerable capital assets. I accept that. But there are, surely, two strong arguments for increasing the capital disregards or turning them into income disregards for unearned income instead. First, there has been this decrease in the value of undated stock. Second, and much more important, we are always telling people that they must save—rightly so—and yet those who have put a bit by are the hardest hit by the system. I have found in my constituency that many of these people with small savings and probably an owner-occupied house with all the outgoings entailed are, as a result of the carnage of the First World War, spinsters or widows. I suggest that it would be sensible to increase the level in these cases.
I had a number of other points which I wish to raise—about widowed mothers, widows and so on—but time is getting on and many other hon. Members wish to speak. Consequently, I shall content myself by saying in conclusion that I believe that, although my right hon. Friend has made many real improvements in respect of the various categories in need during the short time I have been in the House, the time has come for a reassessment of the present principles upon which, in particular, the Exchequer expenditure on our social services is based. Bearing in mind the increasing number of people annually reaching retirement age, the changing social pattern and the obvious need for improvements in the scales for many pensioners, it is essential that an independent committee should study the right order of priorities now so that the Minister can this summer bring to the House proposals to increase the level of benefits in one form or another for next winter.
8.13 p.m.
Mr. J. J. Mendelson: The hon. Member for Torrington (Mr. P. Browne), when he takes part in these debates, always introduces a number of points which are very acceptable and show that he gives deep thought to these problems. He has done that again this evening. I detected, however, a trend in

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his speech tonight where he joined company with some of his hon. Friends. I regard that as straying from the straight and narrow path, and that is very dangerous. He joined forces with some of his hon. Friends, who talked about giving particular attention only to those who are 70 years of age or over.
We have now had many speeches and many references in letters to newspapers about this point, coupled with the insistence of many Conservative spokesmen in the country that we are misguided in having increases for all pensioners, and that we must, instead, concentrate available resources upon those who are among the poorest of the poor. Taking those two trends together, I rather fear that we are facing a reactionary barrage that desires a development of our social services backwards instead of forwards.
The argument that we must concentrate our available resources on the poorest of the poor is nothing new. It was the argument that was bandied about in the 1830s and 1840s, when the early pioneers of social service demanded the sort of social services that Lord Beveridge later suggested. It looks deceptively attractive, but it is nothing but a refurbished system of old-fashioned charity.
There is an important point to remember about the 2½ million people to whom the hon. Member for Uxbridge (Mr. Curran) referred who are estimated by the survey which he quoted to live on or below the poverty line. Throughout his speech he never mentioned the sections which are just above that line. One must not. assume for one moment that merely because one does not belong to that poorest section, and is just above it, one is enjoying a decent basis of existence.
Mr. Browne: The hon. Gentleman is right up to a point, but this is bound to happen in National Assistance scales. The only alternative is to raise the basic pension to such a high level that National Assistance is not necessary at all.
Mr. Mendelson: I completely agree with the alternative, but I was dealing with the point made by the hon. Member for Uxbridge, who did not at any time tell us what he thought of the social composition of those groups of pen-
1218
sioners out of the 5½ million who are just above the poverty line. He mentioned 2½ million and invited the Minister to confirm or deny that as a correct analysis. We should be most misguided to assume that the only problem of near-poverty that exists in this country today is concentrated in these 2½ million pensioners. That is the substantial point that I submit to the House.
I wish to deal with certain points made by the Parliamentary Secretary. I regret that the hon. Lady is not at the moment in her place, because I propose to criticise her. I do not for a moment criticise her absence, because she has been sitting here throughout the afternoon and if she is to be here for the conclusion of the debate there must be some time when she cannot follow the debate. I understand that, and there is nothing personal about what I say. None the less, it is a pity that she is not here, because it is a happier exercise to criticise an hon. Member who is present.
The hon. Lady made a technically highly competent speech. To that extent, I join in the congratulations which have been offered to her. It was a very fine piece of work, speaking for the first time in a major debate of this kind and showing the mastery of the facts that she did. However, I warn her that with that technical competence she is in danger of doing what she referred to when she said that she had academically gone very thoroughly through the report that she was discussing.
My impression at the end of the hon. Lady's speech was that all she had given us was a purely academic performance. It was remarkable that she was capable of making a long speech on the tragic position of many of our old people without making any reference whatsoever to her real experience of how they live. All the time I felt that I was back in the university seminar and that we were having a purely academic exercise.
Mr. Ellis Smith: Is that what they do?
Mr. Mendelson: They do, and they are quite justified in doing that.
I am sure that my hon. Friend will be with me in this, because he enormously encourages university life and learning and is himself by way of being a scholar, particularly of the Constitution. I am

1219
sure that he will be with me when I say that where one has to concentrate upon training scholars it is not necessary to bring to the fore all the time the personal experience of day-to-day life.
However, to some extent the hon. Lady is in charge of the nation's resources in that her Department is responsible for making the case to the Cabinet and in the Cabinet when occasion arises—they are the only people who are constitutionally charged with looking after the welfare of our old-age pensioners—and I should have expected more experience and more reality in her speech.
I thought that the hon. Lady was rather unfair on one or two occasions when she was discussing the surveys which have recently been made. First, she referred to the booklet published by Mr. Tony Lynes, and said that he had concentrated too heavily in his survey on old-age pensioners who were also smokers. This may not be regarded as a point of great substance, but I thought that the hon. Lady was unfair in what she said about the men who had undertaken the survey.
Mr. Lynes says in a footnote to his pamphlet that in 1957 the Tobacco Duty concession was claimed by about half of all retirement pensioners, and that, therefore, he had to make some decision as to how the survey was to be based. He says:
"In the case of tobacco a further adjustment was made in the two groups of pensioner households to eliminate non-smokers. This seemed desirable because of the effect of the Tobacco Duty concession for pensioners, introduced in 1947 and withdrawn in January, 1958. It was assumed that 50 per cent. of the single pensioners were smokers and 80 per cent. of the pensioner couples included at least one smoker."
That seems to me a reasonable basis, and I would not have introduced it in a major debate, but, obviously, the hon. Lady was making this point and it appeared at the end of her criticism that there was perhaps a less serious approach to this selection than Mr. Lynes ought to have undertaken. I should like to take this opportunity to justify what he did.
More important than that, when the hon. Lady referred to a point of great substance, namely, whether the normal cost of living index was applicable
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totally, completely and justifiably to the weekly total outlay of old-age pensioners, she concentrated on the items of food and fuel, and told us that while in the case of fuel the total weekly outlay for old-age pensioners was higher and more expensive after a number of years, with food it was the other way around.
The case made by Mr. Lynes was based, first, on the Report of the Political and Economic Planning Institute, which published a broadsheet, Poverty Ten Years After Beveridge in 1952, and, secondly, as the Minister knows—and as the hon. Lady knows, because she told us she had gone through this carefully—on the survey suggested and undertaken by Professor R. G. D. Allen, and it is the first four or five items of essential expenditure that form the basis of these two surveys.
I do not want to make too long a speech, because I know that other hon. Members want to speak, but I should like to quote one set of figures to oppose the analysis which the hon. Lady tried to give the House. Based on the figures suggested by Professor Allen, and quoting his results, we find that during the period 1953 to 1957, which is a more relevant period because it falls within the period of the Government of the party to which the right hon. Gentleman the Minister belongs, the amount of money paid out on all goods by the ordinary families that form the basis of the cost-of-living index surveys rose by 16T per cent. When this test is applied to the old-age pensioner who was living alone, the corresponding increase was 20·2 per cent. When applied to a couple, one finds that the figure rose by 17·9 per cent., still 2 per cent. more than for the average index family.
Those are some of the figures. I know that the hon. Lady could not give a complete analysis of these surveys, but they put a different construction on the essential point that there is a basic difference between the necessary requirement in a total weekly outlay and the percentage of the total weekly outlay for an old-age pensioner or an old-age couple compared with the ordinary family which forms the basis of the cost-of-living index survey.
When discussing the booklet published by Dorothy Cole and her associates the hon. Lady again concentrated, perhaps

1221
naturally, upon some of the figures and on some of the more general points which had been made. She referred to one or two details, including one that I regard as of great importance and would like to submit to the House for consideration. The hon. Lady talked for some time about the number of people who, in the opinion of those who conducted this survey, would be entitled to National Assistance, but did not receive it. The hon. Lady pointed out that there were only a few people—in the end she reduced the figure to two, which made it appear very tiny indeed—who fell into this category with whom forms had been left and in respect of whom, after investigation, it was decided that new National Assistance payments should not be made.
We have to remember what the people who conducted the survey said, and I submit that this should have been quoted before the hon. Lady gave the House her critical analysis of the position. The authors said:
"We must not conclude from this that there are very few old people with entitlement to Assistance but not getting it. On the contrary a detailed study of the 400 cases on which this report is based suggested that there were many more."
They go on to show in detail the facts and figures on which they based this analysis.
I turn now to one or two general problems arising out of the debate. First, I think that it is important to realise that the background to this debate cannot be dealt with in the way in which the hon. Lady approached the problem. She said at one stage that if we compared the average earnings among the categories that she enumerated we might find that average earnings had gone up by 129 per cent. since 1951.
That figure would be arrived at by basing the calculation on the years suggested by the hon. Lady. I make no complaint of that. Whoever has to work out these figures has to select a basis on which to work, and there is bound to be disagreement about the base which is selected. The hon. Lady said that there had been an increase of average earnings of 129 per cent. since 1951, that National Assistance had gone up by 125 per cent., that that was not a big gap, and that National Insurance itself had gone up by rather more.
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How can people who started from a poor base line in 1951, or at any time since then, fairly be compared with people who have either been in employment over these years, or have had other earned or unearned income over the same period? How can it be assumed that all these groups started from scratch and have faced the same problem?
Some years ago, when I was working for other institutions which have their value, at one point I started in a very modest and small way a survey of my own. It concerned 148 old-age pensioners. I had 12 helpers. The information was given to me in confidence. Therefore, I have never published it. I have never been entitled to publish it. However, I am allowed to make a number of general remarks about what I found.
My first and most impressive discovery at the very beginning of my modest survey was the tragic fact of how far old-age pensioners had been left behind. In many cases there was a very serious problem when the local authority offered to an old-age pensioner's family an old-age pensioner bungalow. Many housing authorities adopt the sensible policy of providing bungalows for people whose sons and daughters have married and have homes of their own. Many pensioners found it extremely difficult to find enough furniture to make the new home properly habitable.
The second thing I found tragically confirmed was the decision which has to be made every time a member of an old-age pensioner's family has to replace a piece of clothing by a new piece of clothing. These are the realities. How can we assume for one moment that a base line can be taken from all these different groups starting from scratch? It is beyond my comprehension. I do not want to charge the hon. Lady with introducing it in this way. She was honestly reporting in her own way what she had discovered when comparing the surveys with the figures available in her Ministry. But it would be completely misleading if we overlooked the basic realities facing many old age pensioners.
This does not mean that I do not regard statistics or comparative surveys as valuable in coming to an analysis of the position. The Minister knows the

1223
tragic situation as well as I do. I know that he knows it, because with other hon. Members we have served on a Standing Committee together. He was as capable of referring to the human side of this problem as any other member of the Standing Committee. I know this very well. Therefore, the right hon. Gentleman will easily take my point that the Government are not making a proper contribution to the solution of this problem if hey confine themselves, in 1962, merely to an analysis which proves that, by taking certain base lines, they have not done worse than their political opponents did in the past.
I come to what I think should be done about the present situation. There is no doubt that when the pay pause is over the Minister will be responsible for arguing the case of old-age pensioners with the Government. He will have the constitutional duty of representing opinion in this House and in the country. However hesitant some of the proposals made by one or two of his hon. Friends have been, I know that a number of hon. Members opposite are in basic agreement with us that the time is overdue for a reasonable increase in the old-age pension and in the scales of National Assistance.
I want to mention one practical point about National Assistance which is mentioned in the surveys and has been mentioned today. In various parts of the country there is complaint, about which I should like to hear the Minister's opinion, that there is rather unequal treatment in the granting of additional supplementary allowances by different offices of the National Assistance Board, To quote one example, the introduction of smokeless zones creates a special problem. This problem is only one of many which face old-age pensioners. There is a need to introduce a new type of smokeless fuel. I have received many letters from people who think that this change leads old-age pensioners into a difficult position, because they have to spend more money on fuel, which is one of their main essentials.
I know that the right hon. Gentleman is not responsible for the fuel side of the question. I am not raising this point with that in mind. He is responsible for the offices of the National Assistance
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Board. It has been reported to me, as it has been reported to other hon. Members, that in some cases additional allowances are agreed upon after consideration. In other cases, as the authors of the survey indicate, there is need for a special doctor's certificate.
I want to make a brief quotation from a letter I have received from one of my constituents to whom I have sent the Minister's opinion and the opinion of the Minister of Fuel and Power, who had consulted the right hon. Gentleman's Department. I forwarded their opinion to my constituent and said to her:
"The Minister is convinced that additional allowances are being paid where such fuel increases in an old-age pensioner's household might arise."
The lady who is a constituent of mine quotes the following paragraph from a letter from the Minister of Pensions:
"Allowances are already available through the National Assistance Board and I hope that people will approach the Board to see if there is any way in which we can help."
The lady's letter continues:
"This is not true. The pensioners are still only getting the ordinary winter allowances, so why should it be put in this way? "
I should like the Minister to clear up that point and tell us whether there is any uniform administrative practice.
In her absence from the Chamber I mentioned a great many things over which I disagreed with the Parliamentary Secretary. But I agree with her when she says that comparisons between social services in this and other countries may be undertaken only with great care because the conclusions arrived at are often misleading. We have recently received a number of figures relating to Common Market countries where the detailed contributions were not mentioned, but only the total figure as a percentage of the gross national product.
That can lead to conclusions which are quite misleading. There are certain definite advantages about our insurance system which I should not like to see replaced by a system based on other principles. But when my hon. Friend the Member for Sowerby (Mr. Houghton) accuses the Government of allowing the country to fall behind in comparison with the systems of other countries, and says that we are not leading the world any more, he is quite correct.

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There is no doubt that we shall have to come to a system in which we relate the earnings of people over the last five years before they retire to the amount of pension which they receive after retirement. I find that what leads to tragedy for many old people is the terrible gap between the last week when they receive remuneration for their work and the first week when they cease to be gainfully employed. It is essential that we agree on a system in the years to come which will result in the abolition of this gap.
I cannot agree with the hon. Member for Torrington that an independent committee could remove his duties and responsibilities from the shoulders of the Minister. No committee could do that because in the end the right hon. Gentleman, as the head of a Department, is the only person who can recommend a decision to the Cabinet and to the Government and get it backed by a majority in this House. But I have always hoped that from time to time we should realise that this is a highly political matter and that it is the duty of the Opposition to remind the Government of their responsibilities when the Opposition consider that the Government are failing in their duty as is the case tonight.
Above all, the right hon. Gentleman should regard it as his definite responsibility to do what he can—even at the expense of fighting his own colleagues upon occasions—for the welfare of our old people. That is essential. It is also essential that members of the Opposition should go into the Division Lobbies tonight in order to remind the country that the Minister and the Government are not doing their duty. I still hope, however, that after due consideration the Minister will find it possible to accept some of the arguments which we have advanced and that in the not-too-distant future the necessary increases in pensions will be made. If that does not happen it will be appreciated by many people that it was wrong and unintelligent of the Government not to have agreed with what we are pressing them to do.
8.40 p.m.
Mr. Anthony Kershaw: I always follow with pleasure the well-informed and intelligent speeches of the hon. Member for Penistone (Mr. Mendel-
1226
son) on this matter. I hope that he will forgive me if I do not follow him too closely tonight, although I shall refer to what he said in the course of my remarks, because I wish to give an opportunity for others to speak.
I shall not deal with lengthy comparisons between the situation of pensioners today and what it was at different times in the past. The pensioners are now rather ahead in the game, so to speak, in relation to the cost of living. Let us keep it so and let every Government consider it a responsibility to keep it so. Every discussion about pensions is concerned with how to increase pensions; at least, I have never taken part in discussions on how to decrease pensions. In discussions on how to increase pensions in the future, we have to decide what should be first priority, to increase National Assistance or to increase National Insurance.
National Assistance has one great asset, in that it goes to those people who obviously need it most. It has some defects as well. In the first place, it does smell of charity. I yield to no one in my admiration of the way in which National Assistance is administered, but every hon. Member will agree from experience in his constituency that it suffers from the disability that none of the money, so to speak, has been earned by the definite work of the person concerned. Secondly, there is the limitation that it can never rise higher than the lowest average wage, because that would make it much easier for some people to live on National Assistance and not to work.
My hon. Friend the Joint Parliamentary Secretary made an excellent speech and I should like to join in congratulating her. In opening the debate, she said that a family with three children might be drawing £9 a week. That is not far ahead of the basic wage which the hon. Member for Norfolk, Southwest (Mr. Hilton) mentioned for his constituency. There must, therefore, come a level where National Assistance is no longer applicable. National Assistance is quite irrelevant to the difficult transitional period, mentioned by the hon. Member for Penistone, between the day before and the day after a man retires. I therefore conclude that the main weight should be on National Insurance. Should it be an all-round basic increase such

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as is generally proposed by most hon. Members of the party opposite?
It is said in argument against us that it is wrong to subsidise the rich, and sc it is. This must be good Tory philosophy. I have never understood why we cannot get over this at least to some extent by taxation. This is the argument for family allowances. We pay family allowances whether the recipient is rich or poor. The rich man pays more taxes but does not benefit to the same extent.
Nevertheless, it is fashionable in many places to consider a selective rather than a general increase, and I should like to consider this for a moment. What categories, if we have to make them, can we help most? It is difficult to choose, as has been discovered in taxation and in the repayment of post-war credits, between individual needs. Therefore, one must have a category which is clearly defined.
The category to which several of my hon. Friends have referred is what I might call the older age group—not the 90s but the 70s. This is a category which, obviously, can be specified. The case for this category has logic. Certain comforts become much more necessary at the age of 70—special foods and the like. Most of my constituency is a rural area, involving the travelling considerable distances for those living in the villages. This is especially hard for people as they become older. The increase in bus fares, which has been made necessary by various factors, is a hardship.
In the villages, as old people become increasingly unable to get out and do their own shopping in the market town, there arises the problem of the delivery charge which is sometimes made by tradesmen and which falls most heavily on them. In the rural areas, too, disappointment was widely felt at the increase of telephone and rental charges. Most retirement pensioners do not want to use the telephone. I go further and say that most people do not want to use it. We all hate the instrument, but we sometimes like to know that it is there even if we do not want to answer it. To have it in the house but not to use it is a sort of reinsurance that old people like. I am sorry that the cost
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bears also on rural people rather than on those who live closer to their neighbours. There is, therefore, a strong case for increased benefit at a later age.
My hon. Friend the Member for Torrington (Mr. P. Browne) was unwilling that contributions by lower-paid workers should be raised to meet in-increased benefits. One way in which the problem might be handled is by a percentage increase based on wages, as is done on the Continent of Europe. It is difficult to make many valuable comparisons with Common Market countries; there are so many different scales. Comparisons have been made with Germany and the high pensions which workers who have been insured in Germany have on retirement.
One must, however, be selective, because German pensions are not paid on the day of retirement unless the worker has been insured for 40 years, which none of us has been. The Germans have been insured for that length of time because Bismarck started the scheme back in the 1880s. One day, when most of us have passed away, we will all have been insured for forty years, too. Nor does the comparison extend to everybody in Germany, because, on the whole, it is only the industrially employed who are covered.
The comparison with France is not a good one, because only 20 per cent. of wages is paid on retirement and less than half the population is covered. Those who are not in industrial employment do not get any benefit. My information about the Netherlands differs from that given by one hon. Member opposite. Since 1957, the main Dutch scheme has been strictly actuarial and nobody receives from the scheme more than he has paid into it by contributions. Again, forty years' insurance is necessary. The actuarial value of the pension under the British scheme is £3,000 and the maximum contribution by a man and his wife cannot exceed £300.
One thing which is certain about the Continent is that contributions there are much higher, though our taxation is higher. We have other benefits which the Continent does not enjoy, such as a better Health Service. We do not have quite such high family allowances, but I do not suppose that everybody here would agree that

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the French scale, which is three times as high as ours, would be appropriate.
Certainly, we will have to make changes if we enter the Common Market because of the difference in the amount of the contribution paid by employers. In the Common Market countries, employers contribute much more to the social benefits of the employee than is done in this country. The everage contribution by employers is 42 per cent. of wages, whereas the contribution by employers in this country is only 12 per cent. This makes one believe that if we were to turn over to the continental system, we must have changes. It would not be sufficient merely to increase the percentage of contribution paid by the employer. To do so would put our cost of manufacture far ahead of everybody else's. Therefore, if we changed over to the continental system, it would be necessary for us to accept a sharp reduction in wages. I cannot believe that this would be acceptable policy to anybody and it would be difficult to advocate.
The true measure of the social charges made upon people on the Continent lies in taxation and the wage content of the product. In the advanced Common Market countries at least, the wage content of the product is little lower than it is here. I hope that this point will be borne in mind if our negotiations with the Common Market reach a decisive stage, because we do not want to change over to a system that would increase our costs and be unfair to our contributors.
I support the Amendment. I believe that we have kept the pensioner ahead of the game. This is by no means the last debate that we shall have on the subject. I certainly consider it the duty of every Government to bear the lot of these people in mind.
8.50 p.m.
Mrs. Barbara Castle: I agree with the hon. Member for Stroud (Mr. Kershaw), who has so kindly galloped through his speech to give someone else a chance to take part in the debate, that it is important that we should concentrate on an increase in the basic pension and should not pursue the tendency of hon. Members opposite who preceded him and who said that all we need to do is to increase the National Assistance scale.
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In the few minutes left to me, I want to make one point. We have had an argument developed by hon. Members opposite which shows a dangerous tendency. The hon. Member for Ilford, North (Mr. Iremonger) produced the usual argument that we were facing an inflationary situation and that in that situation it was the prime duty of the Minister of Pensions to bear in mind the need to maintain the value of the currency and the strength of the pound and, therefore, he must not indulge in lavish increases in expenditure.
I wish that the hon. Member were here, because I should have liked to challenge him on the point and to ask him how he voted on the Surtax concession. Did he vote against that as inflationary? We must bear in mind that when hon. Members say that the country cannot afford increases in old-age pensions, it is because they are concerned to cut down the Exchequer element in the cost of the pensions. They are doing it not to fight inflation, but to give Surtax concessions to those who are already so well off.
I ask the Minister to tell us, when he replies to the debate, what answer he gave to the National Federation of Old-Age Pensions Associations when it sent a deputation to see him a few days ago and presented material to show that the Exchequer contribution towards helping the old people has been steadily diminishing. Unfortunately, I have not the time to deploy in full the argument which they deployed before him, but they make clear in the document which they put before him that whereas between 1949 and 1960 the contribution by employers and employees to the pensions scheme increased by 100 per cent., during the equivalent period the Exchequer contribution increased by only 25 per cent.
It is this tendency in the Government's approach to the financing of our social security schemes that we on this side of the House wish to fight. I want it made clear in the debate that we believe that if the Exchequer were doing its duty towards old-age pensioners, by paying a commensurately adequate contribution to the cost of the scheme, we could have this increase which is so long overdue without the vast increases in contributions by employed workers to which

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the Minister has so frequently referred. The Exchequer element is not playing its part in meeting the needs of our old people. It is not playing its part not because of a great campaign against inflation, but because the Government, as my hon. Friend the Member for Sowerby (Mr. Houghton) has pointed out, have been running down their share of the responsibility in order to make tax concessions to people who already enjoy incomes which make the incomes of those on National Assistance and old-age pensions look like something out of Dickens' day.
8.55 p.m.
Mr. William Ross: There is no doubt that the House has shown, rightly, a considerable interest in the debate. Whilst the speeches may have been good tempered, certainly from this side of the House they have evinced our continuing concern about the well-being of these people for whom all of us are the spokesmen. When we consider that only by our actions in this House will their position be maintained or improved, and when we appreciate that they of all people are probably more weak and more helpless in the face of the economic stress and circumstances which engulf not only them but others, it becomes all the more difficult to appreciate the remark that was made by the Minister when addressing a meeting of Conservative women at Bournemouth, that the Opposition were "returning to their vomit of pensioneering". I do not mind if we on this side of the House are likened to dogs. Somebody once said that when he looked at hon. Members on the other side of the House he found more fidelity in dogs.
However, we should appreciate that what one hon. Member opposite said is true, that no party has a monopoly in compassion. But one party has a monopoly of power. It is only the Government who can initiate action. Only Government supporters, by taking the right action in the Lobbies, can exercise their power to assist the people of whom we have been talking. That is why we have moved this Motion.
I congratulate the hon. Lady the Joint Parliamentary Secretary on her speech. It was very charming. We on
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this side of the House have always appreciated her statistics.
Mrs. Thatcher: I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way. May I say that my statistics were wrong at the point at which he interrupted me. The relevant figures should have been 15s. 8d. and 13s. 8d., instead of 12s. 9d. and 9s. 10d. I think that they were the only wrong statistics.
Mr. Ross: The figures are not vital, but it shows that we were right. We appreciate the hon. Lady's statistics, but we do not like her figures—in the plural. The answer that we got is the one that we expected, and we shall no doubt get it again from the Minister.
Reference has been made to the fact that the Minister has been in his present position for about six years. He is now in his seventh year and almost qualifies for a Ministerial pension. I would describe him as a man who has had a varying brood of Parliamentary Secretaries who are now scattered throughout the Ministries in the Government. They have come and they have gone, but he has waited. He is the head waiter. He is going to dish us out tonight his usual dish of cooked statistics, selected, slightly stale perhaps, rehashed, but they will be incomplete and most of them will be quite irrelevant to the real issue facing the ordinary people.
The comparison is not with the increase in the cost of living since 1946. The comparison is with what people who have retired and are retiring today consider are the hardships that they have got to face—the unemployed man and the man who is going to be unemployed next week. It is the drop from his present earning power and the purchasing power of has weekly wage to managing on National Insurance benefit.
If we take the relevant statistics from 1946 onwards we find that that gap has widened and widened, and never was it wider than it is now. In that respect, there is today greater hardship than there ever was. We should be moving away from the ideas of Beveridge, away from what was thought right in 1942 or 1944 when we were looking back at the prewar years, and the years of hardship and unemployment. Surely, we set ourselves better standards now—or are we to tell people who are retiring that there

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are certain things that other people take for granted as part of the livelihood of every individual but which they must forgo?
There was a time when a wireless set was a luxury. Then it became a necessity. Now it is a nuisance when it is carried around. We have not yet got to the stage of carrying round the television set, but would not everyone agree that television is no longer a luxury but, for retired people particularly, a necessity? Yet the cost of a wireless and television licence is £4 a year. In addition, there is maintenance. Everybody knows what maintenance in respect of one single item alone can mean. All that, of course, changes our whole attitude to pensions and, indeed, to the allowances necessary for what old people should have.
I am surprised and shocked that hon. Members opposite are prepared to be fed with this dished-up statistical argument. It just does not meet the case. There was little change in the relative value of the pension from 1946 right through to 1957 or 1958. At times, of course, we reached—as we always do when the Minister brings in a new Bill—a new peak, but before many months had passed the rising sea of prices had made that new peak look pretty small.
That is happening today. We have this Government Amendment signed by the Prime Minister himself—he did not sign this the day after he made the Guildhall speech:
"noting with approval the substantial improvements in the value and standard of National Insurance and other social security benefits which have been made since 1951 …"
What improvements have been made since 1951 that are worth crowing about?
The only real improvements in relation to a share of rising prosperity that went beyond the cost of living were those made in the last increase—and let us remember what The Times said about that. This is the one statistical quotation that I hope to inflict upon the House. When the pension was raised by 10s., a leading article in The Times of 19th November, 1957, said:
"An index of working-class living costs allowing for big rent increases suggests that pensions of the 1946 real value would have to amount to 47s. and 76s. 6d. in 1958."
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That is for a single person and a couple respectively:
"The rates proposed are 50s."—
that is 3s. more:
"and 80s."—
that is 3s. 6d. more:
"The higher figures have come about because the Government in addition to making the adjustment to higher prices have had the courage to abolish the tobacco subsidy for pensioners who happen (or claim) to be smokers."
In other words, if we take into account the wiping out of the tobacco subsidy the net increase in the 1958 rates over those of 1946 could be measured in pennies. Therefore, in order to examine the validity of this Amendment that has been signed by right hon. Gentlemen opposite, we have to look at what happened in the case of the last increase. It was on 2nd November, 1960, that the Government announced that they were going to fulfil their election pledge by giving the old people, including the existing pensioners, a share in the rising prosperity of the country. The then Parliamentary Secretary, on Second Reading, said that pensions now had a new look, thanks to the sound policies of the Government, and after three months we were in an economic crisis.
Here is the point. The hon. Lady and the right hon. Gentleman today told off one of my hon. Friends for saying that we related the changes in the cost of living that happened since that time to the date of the announcement and the Second Reading, when we really should start with when the pension came into force, which was the first week in April, 1961. Let me remind her what the right hon. Gentleman said and what the last Parliamentary Secretary of her own sex said when we discussed this matter in this House. They said that, of this great new increase of 7s. 6d. for a single person and 12s. 6d. for a couple, 1s. 1d. for the single person and 1s. 9d. for the couple related to the previous rise in costs. That was said, I think, on 12th November, 1960, and on 24th November, when we were at another stage of the Bill, we got new figures. The 1s. 1d. had risen, I think, to 1s. 9d., and the 1s. 9d. had risen to 2s. 5d.
If the right hon. Gentleman is to trot out to us, as did the hon. Lady today, the argument that the cost of living had

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risen by only just over 2 points, that was the period to which those two points related, and we are entitled to point out to them that since the increase was announced on 2nd November, 4s. of the 12s. 6d. has been eroded by the cost of living. If we left it there, the couple would receive an increase at today's prices of 6s., but we cannot leave it there, and, with due respect to the hon. Lady, I think she was most unfair to people who are applying their minds to the needs of the old people. She did not quarrel with their statistics. She did not refute any of their statistics. What she did was to say that she would have preferred them to have taken others. She did not like them, but their statistics were very relevant, because we cannot get from the present index of retail prices a proper picture of how old people are affected in regard to their expenditure.
Let the hon. Lady go into the Library or ask the Minister of Labour to supply her with the Ministry of Labour Gazette published at the end of February, which gives details about the rise in the cost of living for the month of January, and see what it shows. It shows that the increase in the cost of potatoes and vegetables has been partly offset by the decrease in the prices of tomatoes and fresh fruit. Will she tell me how much fresh fruit old-age pensioners are buying? It also states in another section that the increased cost of haircutting and of cinemas has been partly offset by the seasonal decrease in the cost of dry cleaning. What relevance has dry cleaning to old-age pensions? All that we can get from a retail price index is a trend. It does not measure the cost of living of any person. Every old-age pensioner has a different budget, and in different parts of the country there are different problems.
I warn my English colleagues that Scotland has a problem which they have yet to face. I want to quote from a letter I received from one of my constituents who lives at 31, Main Road, Gatehead, near Kilmarnock:
"Dear Sir, Old-age pensioners and the new valuations … I got the rates demand note today as under. The County rate, the Kilmarnock District Council rate, The Gatehead Drainage rate, lighting, scavenging and water rate—total, 19s. 7d. in the pound. … Total paid on the old rates, in 1960, £9 10s. In 1961, £33 5s. 10d. Extra over the old rate.
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£23 15s. 10d.—an increase of 9s. 1½d. per week. The 12s. 6d. per week increase in pension has been reduced by this one thing to 3s. 4½d."
I have another letter from a constituent who is very much more meticulous. He gives the date, the item of increase, the amount, and what it means weekly to him. He says that on 8th February, 1961, the coal price was increased by merchants by 3d., which cost him 6d. extra weekly. Electricity was up so much per unit. On 1st March local and Sunday newspapers went up by 1d. per week. He also refers to the fact that National Health prescriptions were increased from 1s. to 2s. an item. Do the prescription charges and their increases enter into the retail price index? If the hon. Lady will consult the Ministry of Labour index she will find that doctors' and dentists' fees and the like are not included. Before the much-heralded increase of 7s. 6d. for an individual and 12s. 6d. for a couple came into force the prescription charge was raised from 1s. per item to 2s. per item.
If the right hon. Gentleman looks up his report from the National Assistance Board he will find that in 1960, of £1 million spent in relation to prescription charges, only £32,000 related to people who were not receiving National Assistance. Therefore, for the great bulk of people who are on retirement and other fixed incomes this is a considerable burden. Indeed, taking that amount off the 6s. that was left, there is little left of these new high-level payments.
The Government have every reason to be concerned about the position of the pensioners, because every one of these items is needed by them, day by day. My constituent has a little additional pension, upon which he pays Income Tax of 2s. 10½d. He says that haircutting and dress collars are up, and that cigarettes are up. He says that he is giving them up. Whisky is up—this was on 3rd July, 1961—by a 1d. per nip. He says that he has not quite given this up. This amounts to 3d. The Reader's Digest has gone up by 6d. per issue. Are these things all luxuries? They constitute part of these people's standard of living.
My constituent recalls that the Chancellor of the Exchequer's austerity Budget came in July, and that on 1st August there was an increase in bus

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fares. Then the Postmaster-General helped things by putting up the cost of telephones, and on 1st October increased postal charges. On the 7th October there was an increase in local rates. On the 1st January last, the insurance companies put up the cost of insurance against fire.
We have not yet mentioned in these items, which amount to 19s. 3d. a week, the increases in the prices of food, clothing and many other items. My correspondent writes that when he handed this list over to his wife she assured him that the 5s. increase granted to wives last year did not cover the higher prices of groceries, vegetables and other food.
The pension has been whittled away and many old people are considerably worse off. This applies not only to pensioners but to those on fixed incomes. When hon. Members opposite say that some of these people do not rely only on a pension but have a small income besides, they should remember that these fixed incomes are also being eroded. There is, in effect, a double attack on such people.
Government supporters have no reason to be complacent about what has happened since November, 1960. The number of points by which the cost-of-living index has risen is seven. The National Insurance Act, 1960, received its First Reading on 2nd November, 1960, and the figure on which the Minister worked was the September figure of 110·5. What is the figure today? We do not know, because today is the day on which the Ministry of Labour is calculating the current month's cost of living. It is calculated on the Tuesday nearest to the 15th of the month. The figure will not be published until February's issue of the Ministry of Labour Gazette.
The latest figure we have is for January, when it was 117·5, an increase of 7 points over September, 1960. In the Ministry of Labour Gazette, there are pages and pages listing wage increases in the printing and steel industries and others related to the cost-of-living increase. Under the arrangement of a sliding scale, there is an automatic increase when the cost of living rises 2 points.
We are here dealing with the most helpless people—but they are still told
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by hon. Members opposite that they are in affluence at 57s. 6d. for a single person and 92s. 6d. for a couple. A great many have no other income. The average payment of National Assistance covers rent, with about 2s. more. Last year the average overall National Assistance payment was 34s. 4d., but the weekly supplement for old people alone averaged out at 22s. 6d. The average rent allowance is just over £1. People are stepping down from a reasonable income and are losing the purchasing power of their money because they are losing their earning power. But their liabilities remain the same. Many of their liabilities are increasing as a result of the Government's action, supported by hon. Members opposite.
A footnote to the letter which I have received from Kilmarnock is that a rent increase is imminent. I should have been discussing that in the Scottish Standing Committee upstairs tonight. Many may wonder why there have been so many vacant benches today. The reason is that members of two important Standing Committees, namely, those on the Transport Bill and on the Housing (Scotland) Bill, were denied the right to participate in this debate and to state their feelings about the increases which will arise from current legislation.
We are here concerned with over 7 million people. It is not good enough for hon. Members to say, "There are some people in need". The hon. Member for Uxbridge (Mr. Curran), in a speech which was certainly worth listening to, said that we should do something about certain specific categories. He underrated what it would cost to deal with some of those categories. He seemed to think that the matter could be dealt with just like that. Other hon. Members have put forward their points of view to show the measure of restive-ness that there is about this matter, even on the benches opposite.
However, far too many hon. Members took refuge by saying that the matter should be dealt with by increases in National Assistance. Let us face it: that is the cheapest way to deal with it. The only thing settled by the Government in this matter over the past few years has been their contribution to the financing of pensions. They have settled it to the satisfaction of their friends by

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limiting the Exchequer's liability and passing the burden to the employer and to the employee, both through his wages and through unpaid wages.
The Joint Parliamentary Secretary spoke about the contribution made in this matter by the 400,000 Surtax payers. But has she examined the contribution to pensions made by ordinary individuals during the past ten Tory years? The Government do not raise and support pensions. They have never once raised pensions without making a profit out of it in the first year. The Minister seemed to deny this today. I do not know why. Perhaps it was because he knew that I would have the relevant quotation ready. [Interruption.] The hon. Gentleman need not worry. I did not need to find it; I have quoted it so often. Like the Minister, I know it by heart. The date of it is 13th November, 1957. The Minister pointed out that by 1964–65 the pension burden on the country and on the Treasury would be £357 million. Then he said this:
"… we think that it is right that the country should assume the burden, although it is a profound mistake to under-rate the magnitude of the liabilities which … the taxpayers are assuming."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 13th November, 1957; Vol. 577, c. 976.]
The right hon. Gentleman interrupted my hon. Friend the Member for Sowerby (Mr. Houghton) today and denied that the taxpayers were assuming that burden In fact, what has happened?
The Government's most recent report shows that, this year, their contribution is £189 million. The Joint Parliamentary Secretary spoke earlier about the growing cost of insurance benefits and she cited the year 1981. Today the Government's contribution is £189 million. By 1981–82 the Exchequer supplement will rise to £238 million—representing even less in 1981–82 than they were prepared to face in 1964–65 under the old régime. How is it done? What is this wizardry, this graduated wizardy?
Mr. Dempsey: This swindle?
Mr. Ross: I select my words carefully. Hon. Gentlemen opposite constantly talk about taxation increases. Let me remind them that in 1952 they raised the pension—but they also raised an extra £64 million by increasing the
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contribution by 8d., and I am leaving out the employer's side of this. In 1955 they raised the contribution of the employee by 11d., resulting in their receiving £100 million. In 1958 they raised it by 1s. 9d. and got £190 million, and in 1960 they raised it by 1s. 5d. and got £136 million.
This is only the flat rate. It means an additional annual burden on employers and employees of more than £500 million a year, plus a further £202 million out of the graduated contributions. That represents £700 million together, and we are no nearer any feeling of satisfaction that we have solved the long term problem of pensions.
A man must pay at the top rate for six years before he can earn an extra 5s. on his pension; or 24 years before he can earn an additional £1. What will the £ be worth in 24 years time? The whole thing is just sheer nonsense as a contribution toward solving the pensions problem. All the Government solve is the Treasury problem, and all they have done is to transfer the burden to the individual. We have not given a fair share to the pensioners, and we have not erected any barriers to protect them against rising costs, for which the Government must accept responsibility.
The Government take great credit when, for 16 or 18 months, there is relative stability. Since they do that they must accept condemnation when we have a rise of 7 points in such a short time. I sincerely hope that the right hon. Gentleman will go to the Chancellor of the Exchequer now and say that something must be done.
Hon. Gentlemen opposite ask why we call for immediate action now. The answer is that if we decide to do something today, judging by what happened at the time of the last "effort", it will be at least five months before anything practical is done for the pensioners. That is why we ask hon. Gentlemen opposite to face the issue now. They should not wait until the eve of the next General Election, for the needs of these people cannot wait.
I recall a speech made some time ago at the Guildhall, not by the Prime Minister but by the Lord Provost. He said that what was required today was for us to care for the people. That is

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what we are urging tonight; we are not returning to the vomit of electioneering as the Minister suggested. I ask hon. Gentlemen opposite who care for people to ensure that they take the right action and go into the right Lobby and support the people who are suffering.
9.30 p.m.
The Minister of Pensions and National Insurance (Mr. Boyd-Carpenter): From the moment that the hon. Member for Sowerby (Mr. Houghton) sat down till the moment that the hon. Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Ross) rose, we had a pensions debate that followed the usual pattern and as such was markedly out of relation to the Motion which right hon. Gentlemen opposite have seen fit to put upon the Order Paper.
Apart from the two hon. Gentlemen on the Opposition Front Bench who spoke very much to the Motion—I shall have some words to say about it in a few minutes—we have had, and I would remind hon. Gentlemen that I have sat here right through this debate, an extremely useful pensions debate. It followed, of course, the usual relationship in point of time to pending by-elections. But we have got used to that. It is one of the happy coincidences of parliamentary life.
We have not had, as usual, any contribution from the Liberal benches.
Mr. Donald Wade Mr. Donald Wade (Huddersfield, West) rose—
Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: In a moment. I am sorry if I woke up the hon. Gentleman, but this is the first time that any hon. Member has risen from the Liberal benches, so to encourage him I very happily give way.
Mr. Wade: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that on a number of occasions I have spoken in pensions debates? Is he further aware that I and my colleagues frequently speak in debates on various subjects, but that if we attempt to speak in every debate we are not at all popular with the members of other parties?
Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: We have before us what both my hon. Friends and hon. Members opposite regard as one of the great issues of the day. Yet the Liberals do not enter into these debates lest they
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become unpopular with other parties. I leave it there.
We have had—here we follow the pattern of normal pensions debates—some extremely useful and thoughtful speeches from my hon. Friends the Members for Stroud (Mr. Kershaw), Uxbridge (Mr. Curran) and Ilford, North (Mr. Ire-monger), and one or two other hon. Members, all of which would have added up to a useful way of spending the day if we had not had the Opposition Motion to deal with.
I always enjoy listening to the hon. Member for Kilmarnock, a pleasure which, I understand, is enjoyed in even fuller measure by those hon. Members who have the privilege of serving on the Scottish Grand Committee. The hon. Member always recalls to me the remark of someone who had served on many juries about a famous advocate—that he was a brilliant advocate but that the other man seemed always to have the better case.
Mr. Archie C. Manuel: Tell us something about pensions.
Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: That is, of course, the case here. The hon. Gentleman the Member for Kilmarnock spent several minutes of his speech, in which, incidentally, he also spent several minutes which might have been mine—
Mr. Ross: No.
Mr. Boyd - Carpenter:—yes—in attacking my hon. Friend the Joint Parliamentary Secretary for her use of the index of retail prices, and he said, pointing that finger, as he always does, across the Dispatch Box at my hon. Friend—[An HON. MEMBER: "What else could the hon. Gentleman do with it?"] I could tell the hon. Member. The hon. Member for Kilmarnock said, "Prescription charges are not, of course, in the index of retail prices." But they are. Of course they are. If the hon. Gentleman had looked at the Ministry of Labour publication, "Method of Construction and Calculation of the Index of Retail Prices", he would have seen that they do appear, so those minutes of attack at least were wasted.

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The hon. Gentleman and the hon. Lady the Member for Blackburn (Mrs. Castle)—and I have a fellow feeling with her tonight as she, also, was limited as to time—took the point of the adequacy of the Exchequer contribution. I think that that, confined to National Insurance, is a false point. We have heard this afternoon comparisons with continental and other systems, and it is not particularly illuminating to concentrate an argument on the degree of Exchequer support for National Insurance if one ignores the degree of Exchequer support for other social services which, in other countries, are paid for by the contributor. For example, family allowances in most European countries, certainly in France, where they are very heavy, are paid for largely by the contributors.
The great bulk of the high and rising costs of the National Health Service falls here on the taxpayer, whereas there is no comparable system in the European countries which we have been discussing. But even taking the argument with the artificial limit with which the hon. Gentleman ringed it round, I think that the figures tell their own story. The original Exchequer contribution in the first years of the scheme was £66 million. It rose to £95 million in 1950–51 and then, as I told the hon. Gentleman in an interruption to which he referred, the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition, who was then Chancellor of the Exchequer, introduced a drastic reduction in the Exchequer contribution. He was in some measure deflected from it by my noble Friend as he now is, Lord Ingleby but, none the less, the result of his action was to reduce the Exchequer contribution for 1951–52 to £80 million, and to £65 million the following year.
Mr. Hugh Gaitskell: The right hon. Gentleman should not mislead the House. It is true that I reduced the Exchequer contribution. I did so because there was a large surplus in the Insurance Fund and it seemed pointless to pay it in on one side and to pay it out on the other to the same hands. What my hon. Friend the Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Ross) was accusing the Government of doing was steadily increasing the employer-
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employee contribution and reducing the Exchequer contribution. I did not increase the employer-employee contribution.
Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I think that the right hon. Gentleman is being a little more naive than usual when he says that he reduced the Exchequer contribution so that there should not be a surplus. Does he realise how helpful it would have been with a scheme whose payments were inevitably, inescapably rising every year, in the earlier years of the scheme, which these were, to have built up a surplus?
If the right hon. Gentleman does not know that, I should be alarmed if he was left to manage any pension scheme, because if he has studied pension schemes he must know that every reputable pension scheme builds up a large surplus in the early years to meet maturing commitments. The National Insurance Scheme as it was planned would have done that, but the right hon. Gentleman intervened for the reason he has given, namely, to prevent it building up a surplus.
The right hon. Gentleman is also wrong in saying that we reduced the Exchequer contribution. On the contrary, as I was saying when he intervened, the contribution rose from the £65 million to which he had reduced it to £70 million in the following year and, as my hon. Friend said, has risen steadily to £189 million in the current year and will certainly, under the proportionate arrangements of the scheme which we have restored, continue to rise. Therefore, the right hon. Gentleman is wrong on his second point, because we have increased it.
The hon. Members for Sowerby, Kilmarnock and Bedwellty (Mr. Finch) recommended that we should follow the German method.
Mr. Ross: No. I never mentioned it.
Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: They upheld the German proposal. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] I will only remind those whose recollections appear to be failing of the fact that the German contributions are very large indeed. My hon. Friend the Joint Parliamentary Secretary has given them. I need only repeat them to this extent, that the joint contribution paid

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under the German scheme in respect of a man earning £15 a week is over £4 a week between employer and the workman. That is at least three times the amount of our contribution. I do not believe that hon. Members on either side of the House can believe that under our conditions and under our system of negotiation it is practical politics to talk of introducing contributions of that order without doing the fatally damaging thing of introducing inflation and inflationary demands. I will leave that matter there.
Mrs. Castle Mrs. Castle rose—
Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I am sorry, but I am very short of time.
My hon. Friend the Member for Torrington (Mr. P. Browne) asked if, for the purpose of the disregards, capital was taken into account at its market value. The answer is that it is taken into account at its market and not at its nominal value.
The hon. Member for Bedwellty and the one or two other hon. Members advocated an automatic system of varying pensions in accordance with certain formulae. The hon. Member for Bedwellty said that pensioners were not interested in statistics or in formulae. They were interested in what they yielded. The House must face this fact. If any conceivable criterion is taken, whether it be the cost of living, whether it be wage rates, or whether it be net disposable income, none of these tests, if automatically applied from 1951, would produce as good a pension as our system now produces.
Therefore, the argument that such a system would safeguard pensioners against, as the hon. Member for Sowerby said, a weak or mean Government may well have force in the case of certain Governments but has conspicuously not had force in respect of Conservative Governments. Those who argue that we should have this automatic elevator must face the fact that in the last ten years it would not have helped the pensioners as much as our system of careful consideration from time to time of what is the right thing to do.
I come, as I promised, to the Motion, which has an endearing impudence about it. Any stranger to our proceedings, any
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Martian Colonel Glenn who might have got into the Distinguished Strangers' Gallery, would think that such a Motion was based on a long period of inaction by the Government during which large increases had taken place in the cost of living. They would think that it was put forward by people whose own consciences were clean, that they themselves had taken action in similar circumstances.
Of course, both of those assumptions would be wholly unsound. The basic fact of this debate, as was said by my hon. Friend, is that since the increases which came into operation at the beginning of April—increases which raised the level of the benefit to the highest point it has ever reached—only eleven and a half months have passed and there has been only a 3·7 per cent. change in the cost of living. Indeed, since this, the cost of living increase in respect of food—which, by universal consent, is the thing which matters most of all to the pensioner—has been less than the general change, and has been 2·5 per cent.
Is it then the proposition that a change of 3·7 per cent. in the index and the passage of eleven and a half months exposes any Government that has not taken action to increase the pensions to the charge contained in this Motion, of lack of action which this House should deplore? [HON. MEMBERS: "Yes."] Very well. Hon. Gentlemen opposite always show considerable hypersensitiveness to any references to their own handling of this matter, and I can well understand it. But now that they have accepted the proposition that a Government are to be condemned if they do not move on a 3·7 per cent. increase in the index and the passage of eleven and a half months, I am bound to remind them of their own record in this matter.
In 1947, by a curious coincidence, the index rose by 3·7 per cent., exactly the same amount, and there was no action to increase the pensions. In 1948, it rose by 4·6 per cent., and there was no action. In 1949, it rose by 3·6 per cent. [Interruption.] The right hon. Gentleman has asked about food prices. The interesting thing is that in the period I am talking about, contrary to recent experience, food prices rose more than the general level of the index. In 1950, it rose by 3·9 per cent. and in 1951—
Mr. George Lawson Mr. George Lawson (Motherwell) rose—
Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: No, I cannot give way.
Between January and October, 1951, it rose a further 9 per cent. and then, I agree, right hon. Gentlemen opposite moved. They moved—to use the words used earlier today by the hon. Member for Sowerby—coincidentally close to a General Election. They made an increase, but not for all the beneficiaries of National Insurance. Not even, indeed, for all retirement pensioners, but for some of them, to the extent of 4s., which did not, even at that date, restore the original value of the benefits.
To summarise, those who seek to condemn us for lack of action, which the House is asked to deplore, in respect of a 3·7 per cent. increase on the index and the passage of eleven and a half months, allowed five and a quarter years to go by, and a 28 per cent. increase in the index, before they moved. I do not want hon. Gentlemen opposite to misunderstand—as sometimes they seem to do—the impact of this on ordinary people. I concede at once that I would not wish a Conservative Government to be judged by the standards of a Socialist Government. What was good enough for them is, plainly, not good enough for us. But I think that they must appreciate that people outside look upon a Motion of this kind with some cynicism when it is put forward by those whose own record in the matter is so lamentable.
Let me take the real value of the pensions. The single rate pension is worth 15s. 6d. and the married 22s. 6d. more than when right hon. Gentlemen opposite left office. Their case, for their own record, would be batter if they could show that even out of an admittedly much smaller national income at that time they had done as much for the pensioner as we have done. My hon. Friend the Financial Secretary to the Treasury gave an answer the other day, which is a very interesting one, to a Question.
Mr. James Callaghan: It was 10s. when you left office; the 10s. pension.
Mr. Speaker: Order. We must debate these matters properly.
Mr. James Griffiths: I wonder whether the Minister would go back to the days when his party was in power and it was ten bob a week.
Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I am making comparisons with those who seek to condemn us. [HON. MEMBERS: "Ten bob".] If bon. Gentlemen do not want to hear the facts of the improvements which have been made, the people outside—
Hon. Members: Ten bob.
Mr. Speaker: Order. Hon. Gentlemen even on the Front Bench must remember that to remain seated and persistently to shout during the speech of another hon. Member is grossly disorderly.
Mr. Callaghan Mr. Callaghan rose—
Hon. Members: Sit down.
Mr. Callaghan: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I am sure that you recognise the difficulty of putting a point to the Minister if he refuses to give way. What we are trying to get the Minister to acknowledge in his comparisons is that the 10s. started there and it rose to 26s. We put it up to 26s. Why does not he start from there?
Mr. Speaker: I am sure that any hon Member will recognise the difficulties of the Chair. If, in lieu of inviting the Minister to give way, the method is to remain seated and to shout repetitive shouts, I cannot think that that assists.
Mr. Boyd-Carpenter Mr. Boyd-Carpenter rose—
Mr. Callaghan: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Speaker: Order. It is quite manifest that the Minister is not wishing to give way. In that case, it is the duty of the hon. Gentleman to resume his seat.
Mr. Callaghan: The pension went up from 10s. to 26s., and the Minister knows it.
Mr. Speaker: Order. I think that the horn. Gentleman did not hear me. I have pointed out that it is his duty to resume his seat.
Mr. Manuel: On a point of order Following your attempt to curb the noise emanating from this side of the House, Mr. Speaker, may I draw

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your attention to the continual interruptions and loud-mouthed interjections by the nut from Knutsford? Can you do something to control the hon. and gallant Member for Knutsford (Sir W. Bromley-Davenport) in his continual loudmouthed interruptions?
Mr. Speaker: I hope that the whole House will help me by behaving properly.
Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: If hon. Members opposite do not wish to hear the facts—[HON. MEMBERS: "That is what we want."]—of the comparison between their action and ours, by every test that can be applied, whether it be the share of the national income, the share of the net disposable income or the share of public expenditure, by each of these the present provision made by the Government is better as a percentage of the total than in the years of the Government of hon. Members opposite. Those are the facts. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] It is no use hon. Members opposite attempting to prevent these facts being known, because there are means by which they can be made known, and made known they will be.
We welcome a debate on National Insurance benefits because as a Government we have a record of which we are proud. [HON. MEMBERS: "Ten bob."] The Motion is on an utterly wrong basis. Everybody outside and everybody in the House knows that it does not represent what hon. Members opposite would do in our place or what they did when they were in our place. To put forward a Motion in such terms and then to seek to deny to the person who replies for the Government a statement
of the facts as the Government see them, after the Opposition spokesman had been heard in complete and courteous silence, indicates that in their hearts hon. Members opposite know that this is a wrong and unjustifiable Motion.
Mr. Ross Mr. Ross rose—
Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: They know—[HON. MEMBERS: "Give way."]—that it does not represent what hon. Members opposite would do or what they did.
Mr. Ross Mr. Ross rose—
Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: To adopt it is a procedure which can only arouse in people outside this House a cynicism about Parliament and democratic politicians. [HON. MEMBERS: "Ten bob."] The only right course before us is to deal with the Motion by amending it drastically so that it is consistent with the truth and with the facts of the situation, and so that, instead of criticising a Government who have done more for the pensioner than any Government in history, it should represent the facts of the position.
In those circumstances, our duty is plain, to—[HON. MEMBERS: "Resign."]—amend the Motion, to amend it drastically and to bring it into line with the facts. That is what I suggest we now do, with the consciousness that the Motion, as hon. Members opposite in their hearts know, should never have been brought forward.
Question put, That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question:—
The House divided: Ayes 221, Noes 299.

Division No. 124.]

AYES

[10.0 p.m.

Abse, Leo

Broughton, Dr. A. D. D.

Driberg, Tom

Ainsley, William

Butler, Herbert (Hackney, C.)

Dugdale, Rt. Hon. John

Albu, Austen

Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)

Eds, Rt. Hon. C.

Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

Callaghan, James

Edelman, Maurice

Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

Castle, Mrs. Barbara

Edwards, Rt. Hon. Ness (Caerphilly)

Awbery, Stan

Cliffe, Michael

Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

Baird, John

Corbet, Mrs. Freda

Edwards, Walter (Stepney)

Baxter, William (Stirlingshire W.)

Craddock, George (Bradford, S.)

Evans, Albert

Bellenger, Rt. Hon. F. J.

Cronin, John

Fernyhough, E.

Bence, Cyril

Crosland, Anthony

Finch, Harold

Bennett, J. (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

Cullen, Mrs. Alice

Fitch, Alan

Benson, Sir George

Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)

Fletcher, Eric

Blackburn, F.

Davies, Harold (Leek)

Foot, Michael (Ebbw Vale)

Blyton, William

Davies, Ifor (Gower)

Forman, J. C.

Boardman, H.

Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)

Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton)

Bowden, Rt. Hn. H. W. (Leies, S. W.)

Deer, George

Gaitskell, Rt. Hon. Hugh

Bowen, Roderic (Cardigan)

Delargy, Hugh

Galpern, Sir Myer

Bowles, Frank

Dempsey, James

George, LadyMeganLloyd (Crmrthn)

Boyden, James

Diamond, John

Ginsburg, David

Braddock, Mrs. E. M.

Donnelly, Desmond

Gordon Walker, Rt. Hon. P. C.

Grey, Charles

McInnes, James

Silverman, Julius (Aston)

Griffiths, David (Rother Valley)

McKay, John (Wallsend)

Silverman, Sydney (Nelson)

Griffiths, Rt. Hon. James (Llanelly)

Mackie, John (Enfield, East)

Skeffington, Arthur

Griffiths, W. (Exchange)

McLeavy, Frank

Slater, Mrs. Harriet (Stoke, N.)

Grimond, Rt. Hon. J.

MacPherson, Malcolm (Stirling)

Slater, Joseph (Sedgefield)

Gunter, Ray

Mallalieu, J.P.W. (Huddersfield, E.)

Small, William

Hale, Leslie (Oldham, W.)

Manuel, Archie C.

Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.)

Hall, Rt. Hn. Glenvil (Colne Valley)

Mapp, Charles

Snow, Julian

Hamilton, William (West Fife)

Marsh, Richard

Sorensen, R. w.

Hannan, William

Mason, Roy

Spriggs, Leslie

Hart, Mrs. Judith

Mayhew, Christopher

Stewart, Michael (Fulham)

Hayman, F. H.

Mellish, R. J.

Stonehouse, John

Healey, Denis

Mendelson, J. J.

Stones, William

Henderson, Rt. Hn. Arthur (RwlyRegis)

Millan, Bruce,

Strachey, Rt. Hon. John

Herbison, Miss Margaret

Mitchison, G. R.

Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R. (Vauxhall)

Hewitson, Capt. M.

Monslow, Walter

Stross, Dr.Barnett (Stoke-on-Trent, C.)

Hill, J. (Midlothian)

Moody, A. S.

Swain, Thomas

Hilton, A. V.

Morris, John

Swingier, Stephen

Holman, Percy

Mort, D. L.

Symonds, J. B.

Holt, Arthur

Moyle, Arthur

Taverne, D.

Houghton, Douglas

Mulley, Frederick

Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield)

Howell, Charles A. (Perry Barr)

Neal, Harold

Thomas, George (Cardiff, W.)

Howell, Denis (Small Heath)

Noel-Baker, Rt.Hn.Philip (Derby, S.)

Thomas, lorwerth (Rhondda, W.)

Hoy, James H.

Oliver, G. H.

Thompson, Dr. Alan (Dunfermline)

Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglesey)

Oram, A. E.

Thomson, G. M. (Dundee, E.)

Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire)

Oswald, Thomas

Thornton, Ernest

Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

Owen, Will

Timmons, John

Hunter, A. E.

Padley, W. E.

Tomney, Frank

Hynd, H, (Accrington)

Paget, R. T.

Ungoed-Thomas, Sir Lynn

Hynd, John (Attercliffe)

Pannell, Charles (Leeds, W.)

Wade, Donald

Irving, Sydney (Dartford)

Pargiter, G. A.

Warbey, William

Janner, Sir Barnett

Parker, John

Watkins, Tudor

Jay, Rt. Hon. Douglas

Parkin, B. T.

Weitzman, David

Jeger, George

Paton, John

Wells, Percy (Faversham)

Jenkins, Roy (Stechford)

Pavitt, Laurence

Wells, William (Walsall, N.)

Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)

Pearson, Arthur (Pontypridd)

Whitlock, William

Jones, Rt. Hn. A. Creech (Wakefield)

Peart, Frederick

Wigg, George

Jones, Dan (Burnley)

Pentland, Norman

Wilkins, W. A.

Jones, Elwyn (West Ham, S.)

Plummer, Sir Leslie

Willey, Frederick

Jones, Jack (Rotherham)

Popplewell, Ernest

Williams, D. J. (Neath)

Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham)

Prentice, R. E.

Williams, LI. (Abertillery)

Jones, T. W. (Merioneth)

Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

Williams, W. R. (Openshaw)

Kelley, Richard

Probert, Arthur

Williams, W. T. (Warrington)

Kenyon, Clifford

Pursey, Cmdr. Harry

Willis, E. G. (Edinburgh, E.)

Lawson, George

Randall, Harry

Wilson, Rt. Hon. Harold (Huyton)

Ledger, Ron

Rankin, John

Winterbottom, R. E.

Lee, Frederick (Newton)

Redhead, E. C.

Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A.

Lee, Miss Jennie (Cannock)

Reid, William

Woof, Robert

Lever, L. M. (Ardwick)

Reynolds, G. W.

Wyatt, Woodrow

Lewis, Arthur (West Ham, N.)

Rhodes, H.

Yates, Victor (Ladywood)

Lipton, Marcus

Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

Zilliacus, K.

Loughlin, Charles

Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon)

Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

Ross, William

TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

McCann, John

Royle, Charles (Salford, West)

Mr. Short and Mr. G. H. R. Rogers.

MacColl, James

Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E.

NOES

Agnew, Sir Peter

Boyle, Sir Edward

Costain, A. P.

Allan, Robert (Paddington, S.)

Braine, Bernard

Craddock, Sir Beresford

Allason, James

Brewis, John

Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. Sir Oliver

Amery, Rt. Hon. Julian

Bromley-Davenport,Lt.-Col. Sir Walter

Crowder, F. P.

Arbuthnot, John

Brooke, Rt. Hon. Henry

Cunningham, Knox

Atkins, Humphrey

Brown, Alan (Tottenham)

Curran, Charles

Barber, Anthony

Browne, Percy (Torrington)

Currie, G. B. H.

Barlow, Sir John

Bryan, Paul

Dalkeith, Earl of

Barter, John

Buck, Antony

Dance, James

Batsford, Brian

Bullard, Denys

d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

Baxter, Sir Beverley (Southgate)

Bullus, Wing Commander Eric

Deedes, W. F.

Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton

Burden, F. A.

de Ferranti, Basil

Bennett, F. M. (Torquay)

Butler, Rt.Hn.R.A.(Saffron Walden)

Digby, Simon Wingfield

Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gos & Fhm)

Campbell, Sir David (Belfast, S.)

Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. M.

Berkeley, Humphry

Campbell, Gordon (Moray & Nalrn)

Doughty, Charles

Bevins, Rt. Hon. Reginald

Carr, Compton (Barons Court)

Drayson, G. B.

Bidgood, John C.

Cary, Sir Robert

du Cann, Edward

Biffen, John

Channon, H. P. G.

Duncan, Sir James

Biggs-Davison, John

Chataway, Christopher

Eccles, Rt. Hon. Sir David

Bingham, R. M.

Clark, Henry (Antrim, N.)

Eden, John

Birch, Rt. Hon. Nigel

Clarke, Brig. Terence (Portsmth, W.)

Elliott,R.W.(Nwcastle-upon-Tyne, N.)

Bishop, F. P.

Cleaver, Leonard

Emery, Peter

Black, Sir Cyril

Cole, Norman

Emmet, Hon. Mrs. Evelyn

Bossom, Clive

Cooke, Robert

Errington, Sir Eric

Bourne-Arton, A.

Cooper, A. E.

Erroll, Rt. Hon. F. J.

Box, Donald

Cooper-Key, Sir Neill

Farey-Jones, F. W.

Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hon. John

Cordle, John

Farr, John

1252

1253

Fisher, Nigel

Leburn, Gilmour

Renton, David

Fletcher-Cooke, Charles

Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry

Ridley, Hon. Nicholas

Foster, John

Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

Ridsdale, Julian

Fraser, Ian (Plymouth, Sutton)

Lilley, F. J. P.

Rippon, Geoffrey

Freeth, Denzil

Linstead, Sir Hugh

Roberts, Sir Peter (Heeley)

Galbraith, Hon. T. G. D.

Litchfield, Capt. John

Robson Brown, Sir William

Gammans, Lady

Lloyd, Rt. Hon. Selwyn (Wirral)

Rodgers, John (Sevenoaks)

Gardner, Edward

Longbottom, Charles

Roots, William

George, J. G. (Pollok)

Longden, Gilbert

Ropner, Col. Sir Leonard

Gibson-Watt, David

Loveys, Walter H.

Royle, Anthony (Richmond, Surrey)

Gilmour, Sir John

Lucas, Sir Jocelyn

Sandys, Rt. Hon. Duncan

Glover, Sir Douglas

Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh

Scott-Hopkins, James

Glyn, Dr. Alan (Clapham)

McAdden, Stephen

Seymour, Leslie

Glyn, Sir Richard (Dorset, N.)

MacArthur, Ian

Sharpies, Richard

Goodhart, Philip

McLaren, Martin

Shaw, M.

Goodhew, Victor

McLaughlin, Mrs. Patricia

Shepherd, William

Gough, Frederick

Maclay, Rt. Hon. John

Skeet, T. H. H.

Gower, Raymond

Maclean, SirFitzroy (Bute&N. Ayrs.)

Smith, Dudley (Br'ntf'd A Chiswick)

Grant, Rt. Hon. William

Macleod, Rt. Hn. lain (Enfield, W.)

Smyth, Brig. Sir John (Norwood)

Grant-Ferris, Wg. Cdr. R.

McMaster, Stanley R.

Spearman, Sir Alexander

Green, Alan

Macmillan, Rt. Hn. Harold (Bromley)

Speir, Rupert

Grosvenor, Lt.-Col. R. G.

Macmillan, Maurice (Halifax)

Stanley, Hon. Richard

Hall, John (Wycombe)

Macpherson, Niall (Dumfries)

Stevens, Geoffrey

Hamilton, Michael (Wellingborough)

Maitland, Sir John

Steward, Harold (Stockport, S.)

Hare, Rt. Hon. John

Markham, Major Sir Frank

Stodart, J. A.

Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N. W.)

Marlowe, Anthony

Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir Malcolm

Harris, Reader (Heston)

Marshall, Douglas

Storey, Sir Samuel

Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)

Marten, Neil

Studholme, Sir Henry

Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere (Macclesf'd)

Matthews, Gordon (Meriden)

Summers, Sir Spencer (Aylesbury)

Harvey, John (Walthamstow, E.)

Maudling, Rt. Hon. Reginald

Talbot, John E.

Harvie Anderson, Miss

Mawby, Ray

Tapsell, Peter

Hastings, Stephen

Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.

Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

Hay, John

Maydon, Lt.-Cmdr. S. L. C.

Taylor, Edwin, (Bolton, E.)

Heald, Rt. Hon. Sir Lionel

Mills, Stratton

Taylor, Frank (M'ch'st'r, Moss Side)

Heath, Rt. Hon. Edward

Montgomery, Fergus

Taylor, W. J. (Bradford, N.)

Hendry, Forbes

More, Jasper (Ludlow)

Teeling, Sir William

Hiley, Joseph

Morgan, William

Temple, John M.

Hill, Dr. Rt. Hon. Charles (Luton)

Morrison, John

Thatcher, Mrs. Margaret

Hill, Mrs. Eveline (Wythenshawe)

Nabarro, Gerald

Thomas, Leslie (Canterbury)

Hill, J. E. B. (S. Norfolk)

Neave, Airey

Thomas, Peter (Conway)

Hobson, Sir John

Nicholls, Sir Harmar

Thompson, Kenneth (Walton)

Hocking, Philip N.

Nicholson, Sir Godfrey

Thompson, Richard (Croydon, S.)

Holland, Philip

Noble, Michael

Thorneycroft, Rt. Hon. Peter

Hollingworth, John

Nugent, Rt. Hon. Sir Richard

Thornton-Kemsley, Sir Colin

Hopkins, Alan

Oakshott, Sir Hendrie

Tiley, Arthur (Bradford, W.)

Hornby, R. P.

Orr, Capt. L. P. S.

Tilney, John (Wavertree)

Howard, John (Southampton, Test)

Orr-Ewing, C. Ian

Touche, Rt. Hon. Sir Gordon

Hughes Hallett, Vice-Admiral John

Osborn, John (Hallam)

Turner, Colin

Hughes-Young, Michael

Osborne, Sir Cyril (Louth)

Turton, Rt. Hon. R. H.

Hurd, Sir Anthony

Page, Graham (Crosby)

Tweedsmuir, Lady

Hutchison, Michael Clark

Page, John (Harrow, West)

van Straubenzee, W. R.

Iremonger, T. L.

Pannell, Norman (Kirkdale)

Vane, W. M. F.

Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye)

Pearson, Frank (Clitheroe)

Vosper, Rt. Hon. Dennis

Jackson, John

Peel, John

Wakefield, Sir Wavell (St. M'lebone)

James, David

Percival, Ian

Walder, David

Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich)

Peyton, John

Walker, Peter

Jennings, J. C.

Pickthorn, Sir Kenneth

Walker-Smith, Rt. Hon. Sir Derek

Johnson, Dr. Donald (Carlisle)

Pike, Miss Mervyn

Wall, Patrick

Johnson, Eric (Blackley)

Pilkington, Sir Richard

Watkinson, Rt. Hon. Harold

Johnson Smith, Geoffrey

Pitman, Sir James

Wells, John (Maidstone)

Joseph, Sir Keith

Pitt, Miss Edith

Williams, Paul (Sunderland, S.)

Kaberry, Sir Donald

Pott, Percivall

Wills, Sir Gerald (Bridgwater)

Kerans, Cdr. J. S.

Powell, Rt. Hon. J. Enoch

Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

Kerby, Capt. Henry

Price, David (Eastleigh)

Wise A. R.

Kerr, Sir Hamilton

Price, H. A. (Lewisham, W.)

Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick

Kershaw, Anthony

Prior, J. M. L.

Woodhouse, C. M.

Kimball, Marcus

Profumo, Rt. Hon. John

Woodnutt, Mark

Kirk, Peter

Proudfoot, Wilfred

Woollam, John

Kitson, Timothy

Pym, Francis

Worsley, Marcus

Lagden, Godfrey

Quenneli, Miss J. M.

Yates, William (The Wrekin)

Lancaster, Col. C. G.

Ramsden, James

Langford-Holt, Sir John

Rawlinson, Peter

TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

Leather, E. H. C.

Redmayne, Rt. Hon. Martin

Mr. Chichester-Clark

Leavey, J. A.

Rees, Hugh

and Mr. Finlay.

Question put, That the proposed words be there added:—
The House divided: Ayes 297, Noes 217.

Division No. 125.]

AYES

[10.12 p.m.

Agnew, Sir Peter

Amery, Rt. Hon. Julian

Barber, Anthony

Allan, Robert (Paddington, S.)

Arbuthnot, John

Barlow, Sir John

Allason, James

Atkins, Humphrey

Barter, John

Batsford, Brian

Goodhart, Philip

Marten, Neil

Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton

Goodhew, Victor

Matthews, Gordon (Meriden)

Bennett, F. M. (Torquay)

Gough, Frederick

Maudling, Rt. Hon. Reginald

Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gos & Fhm)

Gower, Raymond

Mawby, Ray

Berkeley, Humphry

Grant, Rt. Hon. William

Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.

Bevins, Rt. Hon. Reginald

Grant-Ferris, Wg. Cdr. R.

Maydon, Lt.-Cmdr. S. L. C.

Bidgood, John C.

Green Alan

Mills, Stratton

Biffen, John

Grosvenor, Lt.-Col- R. G.

Montgomery, Fergus

Biggs-Davison, John

Hall, John (Wycombe)

More, Jasper (Ludlow)

Bingham, R. M.

Hamilton, Michael (Wellingborough)

Morgan, William

Birch, Rt. Hon. Nigel

Hare, Rt. Hon. John

Morrison, John

Bishop, F. P.

Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N. W.)

Nabarro, Gerald

Black, Sir Cyril

Harris, Reader (Heston)

Neave, Airey

Bossom, Clive

Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)

Nicholls, Sir Harmar

Bourne-Arton, A.

Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere (Macclesf'd)

Nicholson, Sir Godfrey

Box, Donald

Harvey, John (Walthamstow, E.)

Nugent, Rt. Hon. Sir Richard

Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hon. J.

Harvie Anderson, Miss

Oakshott, Sir Hendrie

Boyle, Sir Edward

Hastings, Stephen

Orr, Capt. L. P. S.

Braine, Bernard

Hay, John

Orr-Ewing, C. Ian

Brewis, John

Heald, Rt. Hon. Sir Lionel

Osborn, John (Hallam)

Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. Sir Walter

Heath, Rt. Hon. Edward

Osborne, Sir Cyril (Louth)

Brooke, Rt. Hon. Henry

Hendry, Forbes

Page, Graham (Crosby)

Brown, Alan (Tottenham)

Hiley, Joseph

Page, John (Harrow, West)

Browne, Percy (Torrington)

Hill, Dr. Rt. Hon. Charles (Luton)

Pannell, Norman (Kirkdale)

Bryan, Paul

Hill, Mrs. Eveline (Wythenshawe)

Pearson, Frank (Ciltheroe)

Buck, Antony

Hill, J. E. B. (S. Norfolk)

Peel, John

Bullard, Denys

Hobson, Sir John

Percival, Ian

Bullus, Wing Commander Eric

Hocking, Philip N.

Peyton, John

Burden, F. A.

Holland, Philip

Pickthorn, Sir Kenneth

Butler,Rt.Hn.R.A.(Saffron Walden)

Hollingworth, John

Pike, Miss Mervyn

Campbell, Sir David (Belfast, S.)

Hopkins, Alan

Pilkington, Sir Richard

Campbell, Gordon (Moray & Nairn)

Hornby, R. P.

Pitman, Sir James

Carr, Compton (Barons Court)

Howard, John (Southampton, Test)

Pitt, Miss Edith

Cary, Sir Robert

Hughes Hallett, Vice-Admiral John

Pott, Percivall

Channon, H. P. G.

Hughes-Young, Michael

Powell, Rt. Hon. J. Enoch

Chataway, Christopher

Hurd, Sir Anthony

Price, David (Eastleigh)

Chichester-Clark, R.

Hutchison, Michael Clark

Price, H. A. (Lewisham, W.)

Clark, Henry (Antrim, N.)

Iremonger, T. L.

Prior, J. M. L.

Clarke, Brig. Terence (Portsmth, W.)

Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye)

Profumo, Rt. Hon. John

Cleaver, Leonard

Jackson, John

Proudfoot, Wilfred

Cole, Norman

James, David

Pym, Francis

Cooke, Robert

Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich)

Quennell, Miss J. M.

Cooper, A. E.

Jennings, J. C.

Ramsden, James

Cooper-Key, Sir Neill

Johnson, Dr. Donald (Carlisle)

Rawlinson, Peter

Cordle, John

Johnson, Eric (Blackley)

Redmayne, Rt. Hon. Martin

Costain, A. P.

Johnson Smith, Geoffrey

Rees, Hugh

Craddock, Sir Beresford

Joseph, Sir Keith

Renton, David

Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. Sir Oliver

Kaberry, Sir Donald

Ridley, Hon. Nicholas

Crowder, F. P.

Kerans, Cdr. J. S.

Ridsdale, Julian

Cunningham, Knox

Kerr, Sir Hamilton

Rippon, Geoffrey

Curran, Charles

Kershaw, Anthony

Roberts, Sir Peter (Heeley)

Currie, G. B. H.

Kimball, Marcus

Robson Brown, Sir William

Dalkeith, Earl of

Kirk, Peter

Rodgers, John (Sevenoaks)

Dance, James

Kitson, Timothy

Roots, William

d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

Lagden, Godfrey

Ropner, Col. Sir Leonard

Deedes, W. F.

Lancaster, Col. C. G.

Royle, Anthony (Richmond, Surrey)

Digby, Simon Wingfield

Langford-Holt, Sir John

Sandys, Rt. Hon. Duncan

Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. M.

Leather, E. H. C.

Scott-Hopkins, James

Doughty, Charles

Leavey, J. A.

Seymour, Leslie

Drayson, G. B.

Leburn, Gilmour

Sharpies, Richard

du Cann, Edward

Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry

Shaw, M.

Duncan, Sir James

Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

Shepherd, William

Eccles, Rt. Hon. Sir David

Lilley, F. J. P.

Skeet, T. H. H.

Eden, John

Linstead, Sir Hugh

Smith, Dudley (Br'ntf'd & Chiswick)

Elliott, R. W. (Nwcstle-upon-Tyne, N.)

Litchfield, Capt. John

Smyth, Brig. Sir John (Norwood)

Emery, Peter

Lloyd, Rt. Hon. Selwyn (Wirral)

Spearman, Sir Alexander

Emmet, Hon. Mrs. Evelyn

Longbottom, Charles

Speir, Rupert

Errington, Sir Eric

Longden, Gilbert

Stanley, Hon. Richard

Erroll, Rt. Hon. F. J.

Loveys, Walter H.

Stevens, Geoffrey

Farey-Jones, F. W.

Lucas, Sir Jocelyn

Steward, Harold (Stockport, S.)

Farr, John

Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh

Stodart, J. A.

Finlay, Graeme

McAdden, Stephen

Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir Malcolm

Fisher, Nigel

MacArthur, Ian

Storey, Sir Samuel

Fletcher-Cooke, Charles

McLoughlin, Mrs. Patricia

Studholme, Sir Henry

Foster, John

Maclay, Rt. Hon. John

Summers, Sir Spencer (Aylesbury)

Fraser, Ian (Plymouth, Sutton)

Maclean, Sir Fitzroy (Bute&N. Ayrs.)

Talbot, John E.

Freeth, Denzil

Macleod, Rt. Hn. Iain (Enfield, W.)

Tapsell, Peter

Galbraith, Hon. T. G. D.

McMaster, Stanley R.

Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

Gammans, Lady

Macmillan, Rt. Hn, Harold (Bromley)

Taylor, Edwin (Bolton, E.)

Gardner, Edward

Macmillan, Maurice (Halifax)

Taylor, Frank (M'ch'st'r, Moss Side)

George, J. C. (Pollok)

Macpherson, Niall (Dumfries)

Taylor, W. J. (Bradford, N.)

Gibson-Watt, David

Maitland, Sir John

Teeling, Sir William

Gilmour, Sir John

Markham, Major Sir Frank

Temple, John M.

Glover, Sir Douglas

Marlowe, Anthony

Thatcher, Mrs. Margaret

Clyn, Dr. Alan (Clapham)

Marshall, Douglas

Thomas, Leslie (Canterbury)

Glyn, Sir Richard (Dorset, N.)

1256

1257

Thomas, Peler (Conway)

Vane, W. M. F.

Wilson, Geoffrey (Trure)

Thompson, Kenneth (Walton)

Vosper, Rt. Hon. Dennis

Wise, A. R.

Thompson, Richard (Croydon, S.)

Wakefield, Sir Waved (St. M'lebone)

Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick

Thorneycrott, Rt. Hon. Peter

Walder, David

Woodhouse, C. M.

Thornton-Kemsley, Sir Colin

Walker, Peter

Woodnutt, Mark

Tiley, Arthur (Bradford, W.)

Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek

Woollam, John

Tilney, John (Wavertree)

Wall, Patrick

Worsley, Marcus

Touche, Rt. Hon. Sir Gordon

Watklnson, Rt. Hon. Harold

Yates, William (The Wrekin)

Turner, Colin

Wells, John (Maidstone)

Turton, Rt. Hon. R. H.

Whitelaw, William

TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

Twectlsmuir, Lady

Williams, Paul (Sunderland, S.)

Mr. Noble and Mr. Martin McLaren.

van Straubenzee, W. R.

Wills, Sir Gerald (Bridgwater)

NOES

Abse, Leo

Hayman, F. H.

Oswald, Thomas

Ainsley, William

Healey, Denis

Owen, Will

Albu, Austen

Henderson, Rt. Hn. Arthur (RwlyRegis)

Padley, W. E.

Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

Herbison, Miss Margaret

Paget, R. T.

Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

Hewitson, Capt. M.

Pannell, Charles (Leeds. W.)

Awbery, Stan

Hill, J. (Midlothian)

Pargiter, G. A.

Baxter, William (Stirlingshire, W.)

Hilton, A. V.

Parker, John

Bellenger, Rt. Hon. F. J.

Holman, Percy

Parkin, B. T.

Bence, Cyril

Holt, Arthur

Pavitt, Laurence

Bennett, J. (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

Houghton, Douglas

Pearson, Arthur (Pontypridd)

Benson, Sir George

Howell, Charles A. (Perry Barr)

Peart, Frederick

Blackburn, F.

Howell, Denis (Small Heath)

Pentland, Norman

Blyton, William

Hoy, James H.

Plummer, Sir Leslie

Boardman, H,

Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglesey)

Popplewell, Ernest

Bowden. Rt. Hn. H. W. (Leics, S. W.)

Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire)

Prentice, R. E.

Bowen, Roderic (Cardigan)

Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

Bowles, Frank

Hunter, A. E.

Probert, Arthur

Boyden, James

Hynd, H. (Accrington)

Pureey, Cmdr. Harry

Braddock, Mrs. E. M.

Hynd, John (Attercliffe)

Randall, Harry

Broughton, Dr. A. D. D.

Irving, Sydney (Dartford)

Rankin, John

Butler, Herbert (Hackney, C.)

Janner, Sir Barnett

Redhead, E. C.

Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)

Jay, Rt. Hon. Douglas

Reid, William

Callaghan, James

Jeger, George

Reynolds, G. W.

Castle, Mrs. Barbara

Jenkins, Roy (Stechford)

Rhodes, H.

Cliffe, Michael

Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)

Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

Corbet, Mrs. Freda

Jones, Rt. Hn. A. Creech (Wakefield)

Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon)

Craddock, George (Bradford, S.)

Jones, Dan (Burnley)

Ross, William

Cronin, John

Jones, Elwyn (West Ham, S.)

Royle, Charles (Salford, West)

Crosland, Anthony

Jones, Jack (Rotherham)

Silverman, Julius (Aston)

Cullen, Mrs. Alice

Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham)

Silverman, Sydney (Nelson)

Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)

Jones, T. W. (Merioneth)

Skeffington, Arthur

Davies, Harold (Leek)

Kelley, Richard

Slater, Mrs. Harriet (Stoke, N.)

Davies, Ifor (Gower)

Kenyon, Clifford

Slater, Joseph (Sedgefield)

Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)

Lawson, George

Small, William

Deer, George

Ledger, Ron

Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.)

Delargy, Hugh

Lee, Frederick (Newton)

Snow, Julian

Dempsey, James

Lee, Miss Jennie (Cannock)

Sorensen, R. W.

Diamond, John

Lever, L. M. (Ardwick)

Spriggs, Leslie

Donnelly, Desmond

Lewis, Arthur (West Ham, N.)

Stewart, Michael (Fulham)

Driberg, Tom

Lipton, Marcus

Stonehouse, John

Dugdale, Rt. Hon. John

Loughlin, Charles

Stones, William

Ede, Rt. Hon. C.

Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

Strachey, Rt. Hon. John

Edelman, Maurice

McCann, John

Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R. (Vauxhall)

Edwards, Rt. Hon. Ness (Caerphilly)

MacColl, James

Stross, Dr. Barnett (Stoke-on-Trent, C.)

Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

Mclnnes, James

Swain, Thomas

Edwards, Walter (Stepney)

McKay, John (Wallsend)

Swingler, Stephen

Evans, Albert

Mackie, John (Enfield, East)

Symonds, J. B.

Fernyhough, E.

McLeavy, Frank

Taverne, D.

Finch, Harold

MacPherson, Malcolm (Stirling)

Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield)

Fitch, Alan

Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfleld, E.)

Thomas, George (Cardiff, W.)

Fletcher, Eric

Manuel, Archie C.

Thomas, lorwerth (Rhondda, W.)

Foot, Michael (Ebbw Vale)

Mapp, Charles

Thompson, Dr. Alan (Dunfermline)

Forman, J. C.

Marsh, Richard

Thomson, G. M. (Dundee, E.)

Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton)

Mason, Roy

Thornton, Ernest

Gaitskell, Rt. Hon. Hugh

Mayhew, Christopher

Timmons, John

Galpern, Sir Myer

Mellish, R. J.

Tomney, Frank

George, LadyMeganLloyd (Crmrthn)

Mendelson, J. J.

Ungoed-Thomas, Sir Lynn

Ginsburg, David

Millan, Bruce

Wade, Donald

Gordon Walker, Rt. Hon. P. C.

Mitchison, G. R.

Warbey, William

Grey, Charles

Monslow, Walter

Watkins, Tudor

Griffiths, David (Rother Valley)

Moody, A. S.

Weitzman, David

Griffiths, Rt. Hon. James (Llanelly)

Morris, John

Wells, Percy (Faversham)

Griffiths, W. (Exchange)

Mort, D. L.

Wells, William (Walsall, N.)

Grimond, Rt. Hon. J.

Moyle, Arthur

Whitlock, William

Gunter, Ray

Mulley, Frederick

Wigg, George

Hale, Leslie (Oldham, W.)

Neal, Harold

Wilkins, W. A.

Hall, Rt. Hn. Glenvil (Colne Valley)

Noel-Baker, Rt. Hn. Philip (Derby, S.)

Willey, Frederick

Hamilton, William (West Fife)

Oliver, G. H.

Williams, D. J. (Neath)

Hannan, William

Oram, A. E.

Williams, LI. (Abertillery)

Hart, Mrs. Judith

1258

1259

Williams, W. R. (Openehaw)

Winterbottom, R. E.

Zilliacus, K.

Williams, W. T. (Warrington)

Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A.

Willis, E. G. (Edinburgh, E.)

Woof, Robert

TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

Wilson, Rt. Hon. Harold (Huyton)

Yates, Victor (Ladywood)

Mr. Short and Mr. G. H. R. Rogers.

Main Question, as amended, put and agreed to.
Resolved,
That this House, noting with approval the substantial improvements in the value and standard of National Insurance and other
1260
social security benefits which have been made since 1951, and in particular that these were raised to a new high level as recently as last April, expresses its confidence that Her Majesty's Government will continue to secure that the recipients of these benefits share in the rising standards of the nation.

WATER SUPPLIES, LLANELLY AND DISTRICT
10.23 p.m.
Lady Megan Lloyd George: I beg to move,
That the Llanelly and District Water Board Order, 1961, a copy of which was laid before this House on 14th February, be annulled.
Hon. Members will have seen that there is an Amendment in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Pembroke (Mr. Donnelly), that the Petition be referred to a Joint Committee of both Houses. The purpose of my Motion is to clear the way for this Amendment. I wanted to make clear at the outset that my hon. Friend and I are on the same side of the fence—or, perhaps I should say, on the same side of the watershed—and that this collusion has been necessitated by the very strange procedure under which the matter is raised.
This procedure has only once been used since the 1945 Act came into force—and that was in the other place. It has never been used in this House. It is a Heath Robinson procedure, which achieves its purposes in an unnecessarily mysterious way. It is cumbersome, complicated, archaic and rather ludicrous. I think that I am not the only one who would be glad if some other and simplified form could be found to achieve the same purpose. That is all I want to say about procedure.
The application for the Order was made by four authorities in the County of Carmarthen. They were Llanelly Corporation, Kidwelly Corporation, Burry Port Urban District Council, and Llanelly Rural District Council. The effect of the Order is to set up a new general water board to cover these four areas only.
Subsequently, objections to the Order were lodged by the rest of the county: Carmarthen Corporation, Llanbovery Corporation, and the Urban District Councils of Cwmamman, Llanbeilo, Newcastle Emlyn, and Loughor.
I expect that the Parliamentary Secretary is listening to the pronunciation and is ready to embark upon these names—or perhaps I have saved him the trouble.
A public inquiry was held in Llanelly at which the cases for the promoters and for the objectors were heard. Expert
1262
witnesses were called, and the inspector who held the inquiry concluded in his report that the Order should be made. Accordingly, it was made in December, 1961. The objecting authorities I have named oppose the Order on the grounds that the proposed water board would not constitute an effective grouping of water undertakings in the county, and that it would have the effect of splitting the county into two halves—the industrial areas on one side and the rural and poorer authorities out on a limb on the other side.
The Order does not appear to conform to the principles laid down by the circular of September 1956, which was sent out by the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs, in which he told the local authorities how, in his view, they could promote the most effective use of the water resources of the country. I shall quote part of what he said, because it has some relationship to this Order. He said:
"In modern conditions these aims can hardly be achieved unless water undertakings are large enough for local resources to be developed to the best advantage, for major capital works to be financed and supervised, and for the expert full time staff, including engineers, chemists and accountants to be employed."
There is no doubt that the Llanelly and District Water Board will be able to function effectively according to these terms. It has the collective means and the staff. But what of the rural areas? No one who knows the finances of these areas can possibly say that they can fulfil these conditions. They are in no position to do so. It is for these reasons that the petitioners hold the view, expressed in the Petition they are about to present, that the proper regrouping in the county would be a wider board covering the whole county.
The county is a place of infinite variety. That is part of its charm, but, as in other instances, it presents many difficult problems. There are large areas of sparsely populated territory, interspersed with small urban communities, while in the south there is the concentrated, packed industrial area. This industrial area will be completely within the new proposed water board area.
How different will be its circumstances and finances I should like to point out

1263
by giving one or two facts to mark the tremendous differences. The density of population within the proposed board's limits is 883 persons per square mile, as compared with 108 persons per square mile in the rest of the county. I do not call that a very effective regrouping. The result will be to split the county not only as between the industrial and rural areas but as between areas of high-cost waiter and low-cost water, because the Order promoted by the Llanelly district proposes a maximum domestic rate of 3s. 6d. in the pound and a maximum charge for supplying water by meter of 3s. per 1,000 gallons.
What of the remainder of the county and smaller urban communities? If the Minister's policy is to be carried out—and no doubt it will be—then further regroups in the county will have to be carried out. The new undertakers will have to bear the whole burden of the rural supplies in the county, and then the burden—let us face it—can only be met by the imposition of high rates and charges very greatly in excess of those provided for in the Order. I would point out also to the House that the evidence is already available that the cost of water is already between two and three times as great in the rural areas as it is in the proposed new board area, and, of course, if the Order goes through then the future cost will be immensely increased.
So I think that in these circumstances it is hardly surprising that the petitioners feel that before this new water board is proceeded with these and other relevant factors, many of them of a highly technical nature, should be put before a Joint Committee of both Houses. Although I am not quite certain about it, I understand that the promoters themselves would not be entirely averse from this. I therefore hope that the Motion, as amended, will commend itself to the House.
Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Sir Robert Grimston): Mr. Griffiths.
Mr. James Griffiths: Perhaps this is the appropriate moment at which I should intervene, but I am quite willing to let my hon. Friend the Member for Pembroke (Mr. Donnelly) move his Amendment if you think that the better course, Mr. Deputy-Speaker.
Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I am in the hands of the House.
10.33 p.m.
Mr. Desmond Donnelly: I am very ready to move it, and then perhaps my right hon. Friend the Member for Llanelly (Mr. J. Griffiths) can deal with the question in an omnibus form.
I beg to move, to leave out from "the" to the end of the Question and to add instead thereof:
"Petition of General Objection of the Carmarthen Borough Council and others against the Llanelly and District Water Board Order, 1961, be referred to a Joint Committee of both Houses".
I shall not deal with the merits of the Order as my hon. Friend the Member for Carmarthen (Lady Megan Lloyd George) has done, because this is something which is to be sent for consideration, if my Amendment is successful, to a Joint Committee of both Houses. I should like to join my hon. Friend in protest about the procedure which makes what she called this act of collusion necessary. It is the only way in which this kind of problem can be dealt with. It would be far better if the normal Private Bill procedure could be operated, with a committee to consider the various arguments and to hear the various objections, and with proper time and facilities to consider maps, local interests, and so on, in the normal course of events. This is the only way in which we can put this problem into that kind of tramline for consideration to see not only that justice is done but that justice is apparently done as well. The fact is that under this procedure it is only possible, I think I ought to explain to the House, to move a direct Motion of annulment, and then for another Member to move an Amendment to the Motion, an Amendment to secure reference to a Joint Committee.
There are all sorts of other complications as well. There is a limit to the number of days on which it is possible for this kind of procedure to operate. The matter is limited to fourteen days from the report of the Chairman of Ways and Means, and, excluding the date on which the report is laid and the next day, since notice has to be given of the Motion, and excluding Fridays, Saturdays and Sundays, this

1265
leaves only six days. Moreover, under Standing Order No. 95A this opportunity is reduced still further by it being laid down that any debate of this nature must be concluded by 11.30 at night.
It is easy to see that in certain circumstances, such as during the period of the Finance Bill, there might not be any days at all on which this kind of procedure could operate. Therefore, I venture to say that more serious consideration should be given by the House as to whether or not this sort of procedure should operate in the future. As my hon. Friend said, it really is a kind of bogus collusion. It ensures, of course, that justice is done rather in the manner of the divorce court, of a suitably marked pair of shoes being put outside the bedroom to ensure that the proper evidence is available. I should be happy to enter into such an arrangement with my hon. Friend on any other occasion and, indeed, on behalf of the mayor, aldermen and burgesses of the Borough of Carmarthen, although what they would say about an act of political adultery I do not know. In the harsh light of publicity in this Chamber I doubt whether this is a suitable arrangement except as the only way in which we can ensure that the arrangements are properly dealt with.
With these few words and with a very strong protest against the procedure and in the hope that the matter will be dealt with more satisfactorily if the House sees fit to adopt my Amendment, I have much pleasure in commending it to the House.
10.38 p.m.
Mr. James Griffiths: I will not intervene in the conspiracy which has been taking place between my hon. Friend the Member for Carmarthen (Lady Megan Lloyd George) and my hon. Friend the Member for Pembroke (Mr. Donnelly), except to say how much I agree with what they have said. Quite frankly, this procedure is anomalous in the 1960s, and we ought to look at it from that point of view.
The Amendment of my hon. Friend the Member for Pembroke is part of the outdated machinery. It means that this matter will go to a Joint Committee of both Houses with the paraphernalia of barristers and instructors and that an enormous amount of money will be spent
1266
by these two authorities. Llanelly cannot afford it, and I am sure that Carmarthen cannot. But that is what it will mean.
I think that I ought to say a word for my town of Llanelly, and, indeed, for the other three authorities, because there are four authorities here concerned which have joined together. Three of them are in my constituency. They are the Borough of Llanelly, the Rural District of Llanelly and the Urban District of Burry Port, and there is one authority in the constituency of my hon. Friend. They have not come together because of conspiracy. They are natural industrial units, and that is what has brought them together. It is the common experience of several generations and, in particular, the experience of the past twenty years.
These were the areas around which a very large part of the steel and tinplate industries of South Wales grew up. They made an enormous contribution to the wealth of this country and, not least, to the wealth of the county. They have been going through, and are still going through, the consequence of a great technical and industrial revolution. The old slate and tinplate industries have virtually disappeared. In the last twenty years, particularly in the last ten years, they have been going through very difficult times. There was a time when in this area literally thousands of men were employed in the steel and tin-plate works, but now only a single tin-plate works is left. To replace those industries, my constituency, Carmarthen, Neath, Kidwelly and Burry Port, all of which were part of this integrated industrial system, have had to work might and main to attract new industries.
This is a very important problem. I do not agree with the action of the President of the Board of Trade. Until recently these areas were specified under the Local Employment Act. They have joined together for the purpose of providing collectively one of the essential means of attracting new industries. If they are to attract new industries they must have an abundant supply of water. The county might have taken action to get a supply some time ago. It is no good going to Kidwelly and Burry Port if the idea is to have a county borough. I ask the Minister if a scheme has been submitted for a county borough.

1267
If the feeling of the House is that this question should go to a Select Committee and the Minister agrees, I shall not oppose that. I suppose that Carmarthen and Llanelly would have to pay for it. But has the county put forward an alternative scheme for the whole county? It is open to the county to do that. I suppose that all that would go before the Joint Committee for consideration would be whether the Order should be confirmed or not. If it is confirmed the Order would come into operation and the joint water board of these four authorities would be established. If perchance the Order were not confirmed but was annulled, what would happen then? Nothing would happen. Llanelly is already the water authority and the rural district is already a water authority. There would be no joint authority; the separate authorities would remain as they are.
This procedure does not deal with the problem. Has the Minister any information that in the not too distant future the authorities in West Glamorgan, Port Talbot and Neath will be making an application for water from Carmarthenshire? We have to deal with this matter in a piecemeal fashion. It is known that Swansea, Neath, Port Talbot and adjoining authorities are seeking water, and there is water in Carmarthenshire. Alternative schemes have been considered. I hope that when he replies the Minister will deal with this problem. I want a water board for the whole of Wales to deal with the problem on a national basis.
When the Chief Secretary to the Treasury was Minister for Welsh Affairs we discussed this matter with him in debates in the House and in the Welsh Grand Committee, and he told us that he would give consideration to the whole question of the future organisation of water supplies in Wales when the Welsh Water Advisory Committee's report on the water resources of Wales was available. It was published in April, 1961, nearly twelve months ago, but nothing has happened. One would have thought that the right thing to do would be to have a technical examination of the water resources of Wales and then consider the whole problem.
The last time we discussed Welsh water in this House there was a row.
1268
We were then dealing with Trewern. There was a tremendous debate—there was a great deal of anxiety about it—with a Division at the end.
The report on Welsh water resources which is now available shows that there are some areas in Wales which are deficient in water resources and water will have to be brought to them from outside. There are zones defined by the Committee. Indeed, it is clear that water will have to be brought from England to certain parts of Wales.
A suggestion is made about the integrated area of West Wales. Why should we in such a problem confine ourselves to county boundaries. I see here the hon. Members for Swansea, West (Mr. Rees) and Barry (Mr. Gower). Their areas will be going to Carmarthenshire or Pembrokeshire for water. The right thing to do is to look at this whole matter again disregarding local authority areas. I should like to see that done, for I am certain that it is the right thing to do.
The whole of the water supplies in the country should be made a public service. Most of them have so been made. The case for the public ownership of water as an essential of our daily life, industry and everything else is overwhelming. But this is not the moment to argue that.
I should like the Parliamentary Secretary to answer my questions. If this matter goes to the Joint Committee of both Houses, presumably all it will have to decide is whether or not the Order shall be confirmed. If it is confirmed, I take it that the Order then comes into operation. If it is not confirmed, then everything stands where it is now. Am I right?
Also, since these authorities have objected, I should like to know whether the Minister has received an alternative proposal from the county. I should also like to know what the view of the Ministry is about all this. Has the Ministry now made up its mind, having before it all the available information, including the report on water resources in Wales, to look at the matter in a broad and sensible way?
Here is Wales with all its available resources of water—all we need for ourselves if it is wisely distributed and

1269
sensibly exploited. But the fact is that large numbers of local authorities in Wales are too poor to be able to do it. They will never be able to do it. Carmarthenshire by itself is not one of the richest counties of Wales. Half the population of Wales is in one county—Glamorgan, with a great deal of its resources, and four county boroughs.
My hon. Friend's argument was that the richer areas ought to help the poorer. I could not oppose that; indeed, I agree with him. But why make Llanelly the only one to help? Why not ail the rest? Swansea is a richer town—except for rugby football—than Llanelly, and Glamorgan is richer than either of them. When we count in the county boroughs, Glamorgan is richer than the whole of the rest of Wales in resources, potential and rateable value.
That is the way to do it. I am not going to oppose this, but these four authorities have been going through a great transitional period during which they have seen the industries to which they have given a century of their lives undermined and destroyed. This is why they have now said, "We are determined to get new industries, but to do so we must get water. Therefore, let us pool our resources". They have done that with the best intentions, and not with the intention of not playing their part in the community.
Until recently—if I may speak of my lifetime as comparatively recently—the eastern part of Carmarthenshire paid two-thirds of all the rates, although it had only one-third of the population. The authorities there cannot therefore be charged with not having played their part in the community.
If the Minister thinks that this ought to go to a Joint Committee I shall not object, but I hope that the Joint Parliamentary Secretary and the Minister for Welsh Affairs will shortly tell the Welsh Grand Committee that he will consider the matter and will bring in a plan for Wales which will ensure that everyone in Wales pays in accordance with his ability to meet the charge.
10.51 p.m.
Mr. Goronwy Roberts: I support as strongly as I can the points put forward by my hon. Friends, in particular the procedural point. This exer-
1270
cise has shown once more that no procedure which is not too expensive is open to local authorities to guard their legitimate interests in a matter like this. The decision to send this to a Joint Committee for consideration will impose a heavy expenditure on the local authorities concerned. The procedure of a Private Bill would equally impose a heavy financial burden on them. The point about the procedure involved in cases of this kind is particularly urgent, because we think that piecemeal localised water Orders of this kind are likely to multiply in the immediate future.
It appears to be the policy of the Government and of the Minister not to achieve a solution on the lines outlined by my right hon. Friend the Member for Llanelly (Mr. J. Griffiths), that is, to create sufficiently large hydrometric zones and authorities which can effectively tackle the problem of the supply and distribution of water, but rather to gather together selected authorities and parts of counties leaving out other parts, and to form small water boards of this kind. They are not a solution to the problem either locally or nationally.
My right hon. Friend referred to the fact that a special committee set up by the Minister, the Advisory Committee on Welsh Water Resources, had reported as long ago as April, 1961. One wonders whether the Minister and the Joint Parliamentary Secretary studied that report before bringing in this piecemeal proposal. Secondly, whether they have properly studied the detailed debate on that report which took place in the Welsh Grand Committee on 5th July, 1961, during which all these considerations were put forward by Welsh Members and were examined by the then Minister for Welsh Affairs, the right hon. Gentleman who is now the Chief Secretary to the Treasury. What has happened about the report and about the debate to which I have referred?
My right hon. Friend referred to areas of deficiency in Wales. It is almost incredible that there are such areas in Wales with its heavy rainfall. There are also areas of potential deficiency where new industries of the size and variety which we hope will be introduced—such as to Llanelly—will make very heavy demands on the water supply. Those are areas of potential deficiency

1271
to which the report refers specifically. One of them is the south-eastern part of the south-western hydrometric zone, that is to say, Llanelly and district. It is extraordinary that the Minister should proceed with an Order dealing only with the amalgamation of a few authorities in part of one county, knowing that the real problem in south-west Wales and particularly in the south-eastern part of the area is so great that only an overall policy for the whole zone could possibly solve it.
We are advocating that a Welsh national water board should be created for the assembly of water resources in Wales and their distribution for internal use and for the exporting of the exploitable surplus, which we very much want to do. Such a board could operate in five zones, one of which would be the south-western zone, covering Pembroke, Cardigan, Carmarthen and the western part of Glamorgan. More than enough water would be provided to cover the deficiencies existing now and the potential deficiencies and to provide a supply for the cities of England. By tampering with the problem in this piecemeal fashion none of the objectives will be reached. There will not be enough water in Wales or to export to England. We take this opportunity to press on the Minister the lesson contained in the report of the advisory committee which was presented to the House twelve months ago.
10.59 p.m.
The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Housing and Local Government (Mr. Geoffrey Rippon): I will try, first, to put this Order into perspective and then to deal with some of the questions which have been raised about procedure.
The House will appreciate that this Order is one of a large number which have been made, or are now under consideration, to effect the regrouping of water undertakings. The policy derives from the White Paper Cmd. No. 6515, issued in 1944, and is aimed at promoting the most effective use of the water resources of the country and providing a reliable service. At that time there were 1,000 water undertakings in England and Wales, of which 26 served about 50 per cent. of the population. As
1272
a result of the action which has been taken to date, there are now about 550 in England and Wales of which 200 are affected by Orders in various stages of completion. So I suggest that quite a good deal is being done.
I think that it is generally accepted that these aims can only be achieved first, if there are sufficient local sources developed to the best advantage; secondly, if their areas are large enough for their capital works to be financed and supervised; and, thirdly, if they are large enough for expert full-time staff to be employed. Subject to these requirements, which are set out in more detail in Circular 41 of 1958, the most suitable size for a water undertaking is a matter for consideration in each particular case, but where possible—and the Order which is before the House is such a case—we reach agreement on the basis of voluntary amalgamations.
I think that some of the suggestions that have been made tonight about a Welsh water board raise wide and different considerations of policy into which I do not think I can go now, but I will certainly convey to my right hon. Friend the views which have been expressed by hon. Members.
This Order, as the hon. Lady the Member for Carmarthen (Lady Megan Lloyd George) pointed out, was made on the application of the four local authorities concerned, who are four water undertakings. This question of the right number of boards for Carmarthen is a matter which has a considerable history. A survey of water supplies in the South Wales Development Area was carried out between 1946 and 1949 by Mr. F. A. Gardiner, under the auspices of the Minister, Mr. Gardiner being one of his senior engineering inspectors. His report recommended that the water supply in the part of the county surveyed should be reorganised under three boards, one of which should be administered in the area covered more or less by the board which it is now proposed to create.
From the starting point of that survey a good deal of work has been done and a good deal of time spent in local discussions of one sort or another. It was in September, 1957, that the Carmarthenshire County Council convened

1273
a conference of district councils to discuss the first regrouping circular to which the hon. Lady referred, Circular 52 of 1956. There was a representative of the Minister present and he explained that the Minister would be prepared to consider either two boards—one for the area dealt with by this Order—or a single county board. Subsequently, there was formal correspondence to this effect.
I understand that no formal application has ever been made for a water board for the whole country, but that the objection at the public inquiry was to ask the Minister not to make this Order, but to start again and make an order for the whole county. This would have meant a compulsory order. All along the four local authorities which are subject to the present Order have been in favour of the two boards. The nine remaining water undertakings were in favour of one board. They have not formally put it forward. The four which are subject to this present Order held to their view that there should be two boards and announced their intention to draft an Order, and they made a formal application for it in November, 1959. It was objected to by the remaining nine, who are now the petitioners, and their objection was the only one at the public local inquiry which was held in October, 1960.
After considering this report, the then Minister followed the inspector's recommendation and announced to all concerned in October last year a decision to make the Order with some very slight modification. The decision rested on three factors. First, the application was a voluntary one promoted by agreement to cover the authorities concerned; secondly, there appeared to be no overriding engineering considerations in favour of a larger unit; and, thirdly, it appeared to leave no insuperable problem in the rest of the county.
Our attitude throughout has been—at least, I hope it has been—reasonable and flexible. We would at all times have been quite prepared to give effect to any agreed proposal by the water undertakings concerned which would have satisfied the requirements of the regrouping policy, but the only agreed proposal which has ever come forward is the one which we are now discussing, and
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prima facie it was a satisfactory proposal. However, the nine undertakings are persisting in their objection. They have presented their petition within the due time, and the Order has thereby become subject to this special Parliamentary procedure.
I do not want to go into the details of the petition, which has been certified as proper to be received as a petition of general objection. As has been pointed out, the Motion to annul the Order, and the Amendment to refer it to the Joint Committee, are the necessary mechanism to get a petition of general objection before a Joint Committee. Some hon. Members have complained that this is an unsatisfactory procedure. As the House will remember, we had a general debate as recently as 14th February on the question of special parliamentary procedure. The discussion then turned particularly on the procedure relating to certain Orders under the Public Health Act, 1875, but a number of criticisms were made of the general position.
The hon. Member for Pembroke (Mr. Donnelly) said that we wanted something like the Private Bill procedure. The Government have fully considered all this, but do not think that the Private Bill procedure would be normally appropriate in this sort of Order, which is in the nature of an executive Order, giving effect to general policy already laid down by Statute and approved by this House.
The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Llanelly (Mr. J. Griffiths) said that we have all this paraphernalia of going to Committees, and the great expense incurred in employing counsel and hearing expert witnesses. But that, surely, is the whole point. One does not want to incur that expense unnecessarily. The Government have, therefore, throughout taken the view that with this class of Order it would not be appropriate for all petitions of general objection to go automatically to a Joint Committee.
If the Minister regards an Order as being so fundamental to his policy that even if it went to a Joint Committee, and even if the Joint Committee took a certain view, he would, nevertheless, do as he is entitled to do, which is to introduce a Bill under Section 6 of the

1275
Statutory Orders (Special Procedure) Act, 1945, it would be quite unfair to the petitioners, or anyone else, to allow the matter to go to the Joint Committee.
That, perhaps, is the answer to the right hon. Gentleman, who wanted to know what would happen if the Joint Committee rejected the petition; would we have to go through it all again? I cannot anticipate what view the Joint Committee would take, but it is quite obvious that a case might arise where the Minister might promote such an Order as part of his general policy, and say that, if necessary, he would promote a Bill to give effect to it, and that, therefore, the question should not go to the Joint Committee at all.
The procedure gives the Minister the opportunity, in an appropriate case, to tell the House, "I am prepared to defend this part of my policy at all costs, so I advise the House to reject the Motion and the Amendment." In certain circumstances, that would save a lot of money; it would certainly save it if there were to be two bites at the one cherry.
Nevertheless, we have made it clear that we have some sympathy with the criticisms of the amount of time allowed—14 days—to put down these petitions; and that we also have some sympathy with the view that it should be easier for petitions of general objection to be referred to a Joint Committee. At the same time, I cannot add anything to what I said on 14th February. Despite the criticisms made tonight of the procedure, we know of no case in which a petition of general objection has been unable to go to a Joint Committee because of procedural difficulties, and I think that the fact that that is rather rare shows that it is probably the right procedure to adopt. There has been no serious difficulty in providing the time for this debate, and it has also to be borne in mind—on the question of time—that there has been a public inquiry and that everyone has had long notice of the position.
The petition, I understand, is not a root-and-branch objection to the whole policy of regrouping but just to the form in which it is suggested in this case. Therefore, although we could not accept the Motion for annulment, I would not
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ask the House to oppose the Amendment proposed by the hon. Member for Pembroke. In these particular circumstances, it is desirable that the petition should be referred to a Joint Committee so that we can have an examination of the whole subject with the assistance of experts. That is why I do not want to deal tonight with any of the merits of the matter. I hope that the House will reject the Motion and accept the Amendment, and, at the same time, give joint credit to the mover of the Motion and the mover of the Amendment.
Mr. J. Griffiths: If the Amendment is carried, and the matter goes to a Joint Committee, will it be confined to considering this Order and the objections made in Carmarthenshire—and, therefore, be confined to the county?
Mr. Rippon: There has been no proposal for an Order relating to the whole county. No doubt when the Committee considers all this it will come to certain conclusions. Let us suppose that it came to the conclusion that it would be appropriate—and it gave some indication to the effect—that there should be an Order for the whole county. No doubt it could do that. In those circumstances, it would be open to my right hon. Friend to make a compulsory Order. If he did that, some hon. Members might well say, "We should not have a petition of general objection for a second time."
Mr. Griffiths: Let us suppose that a group of people in Wales would like to take advantage of this opportunity to put before this Committee the proposal—which I regard as sensible—that there should be a water board for the whole of Wales. Would that be in order?
Mr. Rippon: It would not be appropriate for me to say what could or could not be considered by the Joint Committee under its terms of reference.
Mr. Raymond Gower: To what extent would the Minister be bound by the findings or decisions of a Joint Committee of both Houses? Am I right in assuming that its findings cannot result in a modification or amendment of the existing Order?
Mr. Rippon: There are difficulties about the degree of amendment permitted. As I understand it, this is a

1277
petition of general objection to the whole Order. My right hon. Friend is not bound, in the sense in which I indicated earlier; under Section 6 of the 1945 Act it would be open to him to promote a Bill to give effect to this Order if he were so minded, or subsequently to make a compulsory order of a different kind, which we could consider again.
Mr. G. Roberts Mr. G. Roberts rose—
Mr. Speaker: I think that the hon. Member requires leave to speak again. I have not been here, but I think that that must be so.
Mr. Roberts: I wish to put a further question, arising from what my right hon. Friend the Member for Llanelly (Mr. J. Griffiths) said, Sir.
Mr. Speaker: The Parliamentary Secretary's sitting down is suspended; I see.
Mr. Roberts: If it is open to the Joint Committee to consider a county scheme or a county board, would it be equally competent for it to consider evidence in support of a zonal board covering south-west Wales and the hydrometric area to which I referred?
Mr. Rippon: I answered that point. I said that I was not going to be drawn into a discussion of what it was in the competence of the Joint Committee to consider.
Question, That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question, put and negatived.
Proposed words there added.
Main Question, as amended, put and agreed to.
Ordered,
That the Petition of General Objection of the Carmarthen Borough Council and others against the Llanelly and District Water Board Order, 1961, be referred to a Joint Committee of both Houses.
Message to the Lords to acquaint them therewith.

WORLD FOOD PROGRAMME
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Finlay.]
11.14 p.m.
Mr. R. E. Prentice: I invite the House to shift its attention from South Wales to Rome, and to an event that occurred there last November, when the eleventh conference of the Food and Agriculture Organisation came to a very important decision, to establish, in consultation with the United Nations, a world food programme, leading to a world food bank, which would organise the disposal of surplus foodstuffs throughout the world in such a way that it would benefit under-developed areas, both with a view to relieving distress in these areas and helping them with their economic problems.
I want to put tonight the case for a substantial British contribution to this programme, and to hear the comments of the Government on it. The background to this, obviously, is the appalling scale of hunger and poverty among two-thirds of the world's population. This is something to which we often refer in somewhat prosaic terms, without being able to envisage what it means. But sometimes one has to focus this in a personal way.
I sometimes put it to myself that I have a 10-year-old daughter, and that since she was born about 800 million other children have been born throughout the world, of whom about 100 million have already died, most of them either from hunger or from diseases caused by or aggravated by hunger. Of the remainder who survive, about two-thirds are suffering from some kind of malnutrition and have an average expectation of life of about thirty-five years.
During the 1950s, there was a race between the rise that took place in world food production and the rise in world population, and throughout most of the decade the balance showed a slight improvement, in the sense that food production went up a little faster—but only a little faster—than the rise in population. The report to the F.A.O. conference in Rome suggested that the

1279
trend has now been altered—that, in 1960–61, there was a bigger increase in world population than there was in world food production.
It is against this very serious background that we should consider our duty as a nation towards this new project. It is important to get clear exactly what can be done by a project of this sort, trying to organise world food surpluses. Obviously, the surpluses involved are not sufficient if spread throughout the world, to relieve hunger everywhere simply by distributing them to the people.
As I understand it, the project has two purposes. One is that the food available should be used in cases of exceptional difficulty—cases of famine or near-famine, in which there is obvious need to do something quickly to relieve exceptional distress over and above the ordinary poverty of these areas. The famine in East Africa last autumn and the conditions in the Congo prior to that are obviously examples of the way in which the programme would work.
The other aspect, to which I wish to devote a little more attention, is the way in which the world's food surpluses can be used, and would be used, under this programme, to help the economic development of poorer countries. This is a theme which has been developed in a number of books on the subject of aid to under-developed countries, and particularly well in the recent book "Attack on World Poverty", by Mr. Andrew Shonfield.
As I understand, a poor country which is trying to carry out some project of capital development, either with its own resources or with aid from overseas, finds itself in this difficulty: the people working on a new capital project get wages which create new demands for goods of all kinds, particularly a heavy demand for food, that the country may not be able to meet. In a country where there is a poor level of nutrition generally, and where farming is on a peasant basis, it is more than likely that the increase in food production is not sufficient to cope with that sort of difficulty.
Indeed, in such countries, when there is a rise in food production it is often swallowed up by increased consumption by the peasant community rather than being available for the people working
1280
on capital projects. In that kind of situation this difficulty can be a real obstacle, and in many cases has been a real obstacle, to capital projects which otherwise would have taken place, and there is a need for substantial gifts of food to coincide with periods of difficulty of this kind. Indeed, I think that it would be true to say that the five-year plans in India have been very substantially helped by gifts of surplus food from the United States which have helped the Indian nation in the kind of difficulty which I have mentioned.
When, in Britain and in some other countries, we had our industrial revolutions they were preceded by agricultural revolutions. There was already an increase in agricultural production before the Industrial Revolution took place. In the developing countries with which we are concerned at present that is not, by and large, the case, and, therefore, a programme such as that which F.A.O. has launched is one which could be a tremendous assistance, I think, in helping those countries with the capital development which they so badly need.
At the conference in Rome this programme was put before the delegates, and certain countries pledged sums to the programme either in the form of food and other commodities or in the form of cash. The programme which was agreed at the conference was to build up in the first instance a 100 million dollar fund either in terms of commodities or cash in a period of three years. The United States Government pledged 40 million dollars in food; the Canadian Government pledged 5 million dollars partly in food, partly in cash; Denmark pledged 2 million dollars partly in food, partly in cash; and some other Governments made promises of help without specifying the exact amounts.
I put a Question to the Minister of Agriculture which was answered on 5th February, and in his reply he used these words:
"As a food-importing country we do not envisage that the United Kingdom will have surpluses of food to contribute to the World Food Programme and with the limit we must impose on our total financial contribution to underdeveloped territories, any cash payment to this fund could only be made at the expense of our contribution in other spheres."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 5th February, 1962; Vol. 653, c. 4.]
I want to put it very strongly to the Under-Secretary of State that this is a

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thoroughly unsatisfactory attitude for the British Government to take in this situation. I put it to him that we ought to pledge a contribution which is at least proportionate to our assessed share of the F.A.O. budget, that we ought to pledge such a contribution either in food or in cash, but preferably in food if we can manage it, because the target is to get two-thirds of the fund in terms of food rather than in cash.
I recognise, of course, as I think one must, that Britain faces particular difficulties as a food importing country. Canada, Denmark and the United States, the countries which I mentioned, are all countries with food surpluses. We, as a net importer of food, are not in a position to contribute so much in terms of food, but, without pretending to be an expert on agriculture, I can say that I believe that our farming community has been concerned for some time with tendencies towards surplus production in some respects. I am thinking particularly of milk production.
There has been a lot of discussion, as I understand, about the problem of surplus milk production and the way in which that could be used. Some farmers were saying last year, I believe, that it was in their own interests to curtail milk production. There was talk of expanding production of dairy-fed pigs and sheep and other animals as a means of using milk. In that situation, I should have thought that we could think in terms of pledging a substantial amount of dried milk to this programme.
Some of the other countries are already pledging dried milk not only to this programme, but to U.N.I.C.E.F., whereby the milk goes towards the feeding of children in countries where there is a serious deficiency of milk. That is one possibility, and I would have thought that egg production was another, the giving of a certain amount of dried eggs towards the programme. I should welcome the comments of the Joint Under-Secretary of State on these points.
If the pledging of food is a difficulty that cannot be overcome, then I say that we should pledge our share of the programme in terms of cash. It is not good enough just to say that the amount which we contribute is bound to be
1282
limited by the fact that if we contributed in this way we should have to reduce our contributions to other forms of technical assistance. I feel that we should be making a much bigger effort in terms of technical assistance, particularly through the United Nations agencies.
At a time when the American Government are working hard to get Congress to make a much larger contribution, I think that the other Western countries ought to follow suit and that our Government have dragged their feet to some extent on this issue. I would particularly emphasise the point that the United Nations and its agencies are the best medium for giving technical assistance—better than unilateral arrangements with specific countries—because by being given through the United Nations it does not in any way appear to be a form of disguised colonialism. The receiving countries are members of the United Nations and are able to accept the assistance in that sense.
Particularly as a Foreign Office Minister is to reply to the debate, I make the point that we ought to do everything to build up the work of the United Nations in every possible way. There is, I believe, a Government view to the effect that when projects of technical assistance are undertaken by the United Nations agencies they ought to be undertaken through the medium of the regular budget rather than by voluntary funds of this kind.
For my part, I believe that there is a certain amount of merit in this view, and I think that it would be legitimate for our representatives to argue this at the United Nations. But if our view is not accepted, and if the F.A.O. or any other United Nations agency maintains a programme based on voluntary funds, then, as a good member of the United Nations' family, we ought to accept the fact that we have been outvoted on the point and contribute to the funds. There are many other examples of where we have not done this, and I hope that this will not be another example. It seems to me that the problem which we face is so urgent in terms of the world food situation that we cannot drag our feet on the issue.

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I began my speech by referring to the background of misery that exists throughout the world and I would end by saying that for every mouth that needs to be fed now there will be two at the end of the century. We ought to play our full part, and I would welcome some assurance on the point from the Joint Under-Secretary of State.
11.29 p.m.
The Joint Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Peter Thomas): When I was Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour it used to be frequently my task to meet the hon. Member for East Ham, North (Mr. Prentice) both in debate and at Question Time. One of his many qualities is that he is usually up to date in his information and in his interests, and this debate is no exception.
The resolution on the World Food Programme was adopted by the General Assembly of the United Nations as recently as 19th December, 1961, and therefore, this is a new and important matter, and I congratulate the hon. Member for East Ham, North for raising it with his customary efficiency.
Her Majesty's Government are, of course, keenly aware that there is in some countries in the world an overabundance of food while in many others, as the hon. Gentleman so graphically described, there is hunger and malnutrition. We obviously recognise the appalling nature of this deprivation and, indeed, the essential absurdity of the situation.
We realise the importance of finding suitable means of transferring food surpluses from countries which have them but cannot sell them to countries which need food and cannot pay for it. We have, therefore, always sympathised with attempts which have been made in the past to find satisfactory solutions to this problem. The major effort hitherto, as the hon. Member said, has been by the United States on a bilateral basis. He mentioned, in particular, the help that was given to India. In our view, these efforts have been of great benefit, but we accept, also, that there is a place for a multilateral approach to food aid. We think that such an approach may well have considerable advantages for both
1284
donor and recipient countries. The aid that is given could well be better coordinated and adjusted to the needs and programmes of developing countries.
However, while we certainly do not see any objection to the utilisation of existing food surpluses in the aid programmes of developed countries which hold surpluses, we do not consider that aid in the form of food should be accepted as an integral part of every country's aid programme. Obviously, to devise and operate a satisfactory scheme for food aid is not simple. The mass transfer of surpluses can disturb normal patterns of trade and damage those countries which live by the production and sale of food, some of which are developing countries, such as Burma, Thailand and Argentina. Others are Commonwealth countries such as Australia and New Zealand.
Another difficulty is that, unless carefully managed, it can retard the effective development of food production in the recipient countries. Then there is the risk of perpetuating existing surpluses or even of creating new ones. Again, in schemes such as the World Food Programme, where contributions may be in the form of shipping services, flag discrimination and the disruption of freight rates need to be guarded against. These are important considerations, but they are not just the views of Her Majesty's Government. They are shared by many other members of the United Nations.
As the hon. Member knows, it was thought necessary to incorporate in the framework of the scheme for a world food programme express safeguards against these risks and it was partly for these reasons that it was decided to establish it on a purely experimental basis. Her Majesty's Government accordingly voted for the scheme both at the Food and Agriculture Organisation conference last November and a few weeks later, in the General Assembly, and we certainly wish it well.
That is not to say, however, that we in Britain can ourselves make any contribution to this programme. There are three possible forms of contribution. The hon. Member mentioned, in particular, two of them, contributions in kind and in cash. In addition, there is the contribution by way of services. When examining these we should do so against

1285
the background of our already considerable provision of aid to developing countries. This aid from Government funds has been increasing steadily and has risen from £80 million three or four years ago to over £160 million in 1961. The trend is still upwards as disbursements catch up with the increasing commitments undertaken in these years. But, as my right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer said in the House on 25th July last year, we have to try to ensure that aid expenditure does not rise much above the present level. This means that, generally speaking, we must avoid new commitments.
The hon. Gentleman referred to contribution in kind. This method of assistance—I think he appreciated this—is quite inappropriate to the United Kingdom. This country, as he said, is a large food importer and does not normally produce surplus foodstuffs. As he mentioned, the United States, Canada and Denmark have food surpluses. So far as there may from time to time be small and temporary production in the United Kingdom which is in excess of domestic requirements at current prices, the Government take the view that it is for the producers themselves to dispose of it; and the Ministry of Agriculture and other Departments are always glad to put manufacturers in touch with agencies that might help them to find markets for their products.
The hon. Gentleman suggested that we might have surplus milk available for contribution to the world food programme. The fact is that up to now, and save in very exceptional circumstances, we do not produce surpluses in this country. Milk which is not required for liquid consumption is processed into butter, cheese and condensed milk and other milk products. We are net importers of milk products as a whole, and it would hardly be sound economics to be both importing milk products and giving them away at the same time.
As to eggs, we are much closer to a situation in which domestic production virtually meets our requirements, but we are still importing small quantities.
It is conceivable that some stock of processed food might be available at a time when some call was made for aid
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in kind on an emergency basis. But that would have to be examined as a special case, and is quite different from any suggestion that a regular continuing contribution of this sort could be made.
On the question of a contribution in cash, as my right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer said, we must be very careful before we add to our existing aid expenditure. We already have a difficult enough task to earn sufficient foreign exchange to pay for our imports. On the whole, the countries with food surpluses, such as those described by the hon. Gentleman, are among the more prosperous.
I do not think that we could arrange a contribution to the world food programme in such a way that this would be in substitution for part of our existing aid. This consists of sums firmly committed to the recipient countries concerned for agreed purposes, and we could not repudiate any of At so as to make room for a contribution to the food programme. In any case, I cannot think of any recipient country, even though it might badly need food, which would want food aid to be at the expense of the imports of industrial machinery and materials which it needs to expand its own productive capacity.
Despite the reservations which I have made, I can assure the hon. Gentleman and the House that we are fully sympathetic to the idea behind the World Food programme. We welcome it in principle, and we welcome the move to deal with the problem of food surpluses in an international forum. This might be the best hope of achieving a satisfactory solution to what is, despite its simple appearance, a highly complex problem.
But, as things now stand, we honestly doubt whether a British contribution to this programme would be the best way our limited resources could be used to the advantage of the developing countries. As I have said, we are a food importer on a large scale. So far as cash is concerned, we are already giving financial aid to less-developed countries in ways which we believe most acceptable to them and best suited to their needs.
Having regard to our economic situation, this aid is at a very high level, and, despite our well known difficulties, we have not sought to cut it back. But we must obviously be careful about adding to it. Nor, in our view, can a contribution to the World Food Programme be used as a substitute for any of our existing commitments.
I have already congratulated the hon. Gentleman on his choice of subject. We applaud the initiative of the United Nations—
Mr. Prentice: I appreciate what the hon. Gentleman has said, but am I to take it that this is a permanent refusal of the Government to contribute to this programme, or is the hon. Gentleman saying that there are these difficulties and that the Government may or may not make a contribution later?
Mr. Thomas: I was expressing the view of the Government on this matter at the moment. I do not think that I
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conveyed the impression—I certainly did not intend to—that the view I was expressing was a wholly inflexible one, and that there might not come a situation when we might be able to take a different point of view. I was dealing with the situation as it is at present, having regard to our economic difficulties, the fact that we are an importing country, and that we have no food surplus.
As the opportunity was available, I thought that it was right to mention those reservations. As I said, we appreciate the principle behind the world food programme, but, nevertheless, we feel that in the present situation Britain is in those difficulties that I mentioned. I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for raising this matter and giving me the opportunity of putting these points before the House.
Question put and agreed to.
Adjourned accordingly at nineteen minutes to Twelve o'clock.

BASUTOLAND
  Mrs. Mafeking
  Mrs. Mafeking
SWAZILAND
  Constitutional Committee's Report
  Constitutional Committee's Report
NYASALAND
  Ritual Murder
  Ritual Murder
COLONIAL TERRITORIES
  Non-self-governing Territories
  Non-self-governing Territories
NORTHERN RHODESIA
  Constitutional Proposals
  Constitutional Proposals
TRISTAN DA CUNHA
  Scientific Expedition (Report)
  Scientific Expedition (Report)
MINISTRY OF WORKS
  Mawley Hall, Worcestershire
  Mawley Hall, Worcestershire
  Railings, Piccadilly
  Railings, Piccadilly
TELEPHONE SERVICE
  Profit
  Profit
  Boxmoor Exchange
  Boxmoor Exchange
POST OFFICE
  Sub-Post Offices
  Sub-Post Offices
  Stamp Books
  Stamp Books
  Booklet "Exports by Mail"
  Booklet "Exports by Mail"
NATIONAL FINANCE
  National Economic Developoment Council
  National Economic Developoment Council
  Tobacco Duty
  Tobacco Duty
  European Economic Community
  European Economic Community
  Income Tax
  Income Tax
TRADE AND COMMERCE
  Commonwealth Trade
  Commonwealth Trade
  European Economic Community
  European Economic Community
LOCAL GOVERNMENT
  Blackwater Estuary
  Blackwater Estuary
  Croydon Airport Inquiry
  Croydon Airport Inquiry
HOUSING
  Slum Clearance, Gateshead
  Slum Clearance, Gateshead
  Bracknell (Middlesex Families)
  Bracknell (Middlesex Families)
  Birmingham
  Birmingham
AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD
  Wheat
  Wheat
  Wales and Monmouthshire
  Wales and Monmouthshire
ROYAL NAVY
  H.M.S. "Dreadnought"
  H.M.S. "Dreadnought"
EDUCATION
  Mellow Lane Comprehensive School, Hayes
  Mellow Lane Comprehensive School, Hayes
  Welsh-Language Schools
  Welsh-Language Schools
ROYAL AIR FORCE
  Nuclear Deterrent
  Nuclear Deterrent
MINISTRY OF AVIATION
  London Airport
  London Airport
SCOTLAND
  Fire Service, Coatbridge
  Fire Service, Coatbridge
  Fire Service, Lanarkshire
  Fire Service, Lanarkshire
  Salmon and Trout Fisheries Committee (Membership)
  Salmon and Trout Fisheries Committee (Membership)
  Mental Welfare Commission (Membership)
  Mental Welfare Commission (Membership)
ROADS
  M.1, A.5 and A.45 (Accidents)
  M.1, A.5 and A.45 (Accidents)

Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR On the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of St. Edmundsbury and Ipswich
The Earl of Lytton—Took the Oath.

RESIDENTIAL ACCOMMODATION AND OFFICE DEVELOPMENT
2.35 p.m.
LORD AMULREE: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government how many dwelling houses and flats have been done away with to make offices in the County of London in each of the last five years.]
THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF HOUSING AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT (EARL JELLICOE): My Lords, figures are not available. In case this may give the impression that this matter is not regarded as important by Her Majesty's Government, perhaps I may add a few words on the policy. When the development plan was approved in 1955 a provision was written into it that permission would not be given for a change from residential use of any residential building which could still be used, with or without adaptation, for residential purposes of any kind, unless there were very special circumstances. That applied only to standing residential buildings, not to redevelopment. In the current review of the development plan the London County Council propose to add a further provision that, in considering applications for the redevelopment of land previously used in whole or in part for purposes of a residential nature, regard will be had to the need to provide residential accommodation on redevelopment. That would apply to redevelopment for offices or any other commercial use. Although the review has yet to be formally approved by my right honourable friend, he proposes to accept
106
this amendment, and I understand that the London County Council are already applying this policy in dealing with current applications.
Lord AMULREE: My Lords, I should like to thank the noble Earl for his reply. While I am sorry the true figures are not available, what he says goes some way to satisfy me.
LORD HAWKE: My Lords, may I ask my noble friend whether there are any restrictions on the adaptation of existing office premises for living accommodation in London?
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, I am afraid my noble friend has bowled me out, but I will look into the matter and let him have a reply.

PENSIONERS RECEIVING NATIONAL ASSISTANCE
2.37 p.m.
LORD AMULREE: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what proportion of those retirement pensioners who have no private means or other form of pension or allowance from private sources are in receipt of National Assistance.]
LORD DENHAM: My Lords, I regret that this information is not available. As the noble Lord may be aware, no means test is applicable to retirement pensions.
LORD AMULREE: My Lords, I should like to thank the noble Lord for his reply. I am afraid it means that my faith in the Government's omniscience has been rather shaken to-day. But I should, if I may, like to put a supplementary question and ask whether he can tell me what number of retirement pensioners receive National Assistance now.
LORD DENHAM: Yes, my Lords. In September, 1961, about 1,044,000 retirement pensioner households—that is, single pensioners and married couples with pension—were receiving supplementary allowances from the National Assistance Board. That is 22·6 per cent. of the total.
LORD AMULREE: I thank the noble Lord.

PALL MALL TRAFFIC CONTROL
2.40 p.m.
EARL HOWE: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government how long it is intended to keep Pall Mall as a one-way street; and whether it will be possible to institute a pedestrian crossing about half-way along the street.]
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF TRANSPORT (LORD CHESHAM): My Lords, as my right honourable friend announced at the time, the present one-way working experiment was extended in January for a further experimental period of up to six months, to enable its working in normal traffic conditions to be properly studied. Until this study is complete it is not possible to say how long one-way working in Pall Mall will continue.
The answer to the second part of my noble friend's Question is, Yes. Plans have already been made for an extra pedestrian crossing to be installed soon at the junction with the western arm of St. James's Square, roughly halfway between the Regent Street and Marlborough Gate crossings. There will then be three pedestrian crossings not more than 200 yards apart.
THE EARL OF ALBEMARLE: My Lords, arising out of that Answer, may I ask whether St. James's Street should not be added to the Question? At about the time of day when everybody wants a taxi, five o'clock, I have frequently seen the impossibility of attracting the notice of any taxi or vehicle driver coming up St. James's Street, because the whole street is filled by a race of buses and vehicles. Is the noble Lord not aware that the taxi rank is always empty now? If there were any taxis there they would be marooned between one-way streets on each side of their rank.
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, the only matter on which I feel I must disagree with my noble friend is whether that point arises from the original Question. Whether it should or should not is another matter, but it did not.
LORD BRAND: My Lords, arising out of this Question, may I say that five days ago I saw a woman killed within five yards of me in Piccadilly, because, I suppose, she had come from the country and was looking the other way, and a taxi travelling at 50 or 70 miles an hour hit her and killed her? Cannot provisions be made to put up a large notice on the stands in the middle of the road saying, "Pleaset look this way" or "that way"? I saw only to-day in Piccadilly a notice on one of the platforms but not on the other.
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, I think I should be right in saying that I do not think that that matter arises out of the Question, either. However, in view of what the noble Lord has told us and the seriousness of that kind of thing, I will certainly look at this matter, although it is my impression that quite large and clear notices are put up for that purpose.

SMOKING AND HEALTH
2.43 p.m.
THE EARL OF ARRAN: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are aware that the Report of the Royal College of Physicians on Smoking and Health has aroused great interest throughout the country and grave disquiet in some quarters; and if so, what action they are proposing to take.]
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL AND MINISTER FOR SCIENCE (VISCOUNT HAILSHAM): My Lords, the great interest throughout the country in this Report to which my noble friend refers is encouraging. The Government accept the conclusions of the Report that cigarette smoking is a cause of lung cancer and bronchitis, and probably contributes to the development of coronary heart disease and other less common diseases. They have already taken action on the recommendation that there should be more education of the public, and especially schoolchildren, concerning the hazards of smoking. The Minister of Health and Secretary of State for Scotland yesterday, in circulars to

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local authorities, asked them to use all their channels of health education to make the conclusions of the Report known and to bring home to the public the dangers to health of smoking, particularly of cigarettes. Free publicity material for this purpose is to be provided by the Government, and the Central and Scottish Councils for Health Education are being consulted about ways in which they can help.
As regards health education in schools, the Minister of Education and Secretary of State for Scotland have written to local education authorities urging that there should be fresh and positive effort in schools and educational establishments in this direction, and that teachers, non-teaching staff and visitors to schools should set a good example by not smoking in front of children. The other recommendations of the Report are under consideration by the Government.
THE EARL OF ALBEMARLE: My Lords, arising out of that Answer, may I ask how the Government propose to tackle the breach of the law in regard to selling to those under sixteen?
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, I think I should require notice of that question.
BARONESS HORSBRUGH: My Lords, would the noble Viscount say how the retailer is to decide whether the would-be customer is sixteen?
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, again I think I should require notice of that point.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, I should have thought there was a law already on the Statute Book that is not being closely observed in regard to the matter of selling. But may I ask whether the steps, which one welcomes in the interests of the health of the children, are going to be left entirely relating to the evils of tobacco smoking. What is going to be done about the liquor traffic or the gambling traffic? How far are you going to interfere with the general freedom of the citizen? Let us have it all the way round, wherever young life is threatened.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, that is a most interesting and important point, but I do not think I can answer it by way of question and answer. I think it may come within the framework of the debate on the Motion which my noble friend already has down on the Paper.
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL: My Lords, in view of the fact that this Report has revealed that the tobacco addict needs the help, advice and protection of the public health authorities, why do the Government continue to allow unscrupulous tobacco advertisers to spend millions in undermining the health of the people?
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, I think that that again is a matter of general criticism, which the noble Lady can put forward with great effect if and when my noble friend's Motion comes to be debated. But I should not be willing to accept the implication that everybody who advertises a product which is discovered to be deleterious is necessarily unscrupulous.
LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE: My Lords, may I ask the Leader of the House whether the Government are going to support the exhortations by example? And will the Ministers of the Cabinet make a public declaration that, in support of this policy, they intend to deny themselves cigarettes?
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, my spies tell me that the Lord Chancellor has bought a pipe.
LORD TAYLOR: My Lords, can the noble Viscount say whether his Department is investigating why pipes are less harmful than cigarettes?
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, without notice, I am not sure whether the Medical Research Council is doing so. It is, I think, a matter which has been the subject of rather extensive research by one body or another.
LORD AIREDALE:My Lords, I speak on this matter to-day with some feeling, being rather bronchial this afternoon, but I will try to make myself understood. Will the noble Viscount seriously consider the question of cigarette slot machines, which of course allow cigarettes to be sold all hours of the day and night to children

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under the age of sixteen? Will he seriously consider banning these machines? Surely there are enough retail outlets for cigarette selling to adults, without slot machines.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, I think the general question of paternalism, ill this or in any other form, is one which could usefully be debated on my noble friend's Motion; but I should not like to commit myself to-day.
LORD HAWKE: My Lords, will my noble Leader institute medical research into the large number of people who get lung cancer without ever having smoked in their lives?
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, I think that if my noble friend reads the Report he will see that that has already been done.
THE EARL OF ARRAN: My Lords, while I thank my noble Leader for his most helpful reply, may I express the hope that we shall be given a fairly early date to discuss the Motion?
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, I hope that, if it is convenient, it will be on Thursday, March 22.

ACTS OF UNITED NATIONS TROOPS IN KATANGA
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, I would, with permission, rise on a question of Business and draw attention to a Question with regard to Katanga which is down on the Order Paper for the first time to-day in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Colyton. Thirteen or fourteen months ago we had a discussion in this House as to whether we should allow certain types of Question to be on the Order Paper. We have great freedom in this House of ours. This Question seems to offend in one respect in the light of our discussions in February over a Question which was on another subject and which was finally withdrawn, on pressure from your Lordships, because it made a charge before the matter had been discussed. I should have thought that it would be quite easy for the noble Lord, Lord Colyton, whom I have known for many years in another place,
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to put this Question into the sort of form that the House of Lords is used to, and perhaps refer to "inquiries into allegations", or something of that kind, rather than to leave the Question in its present form.
LORD COLYTON: My Lords, I am quite prepared to substantiate these charges from my personal knowledge and from first-hand evidence furnished to me in Elisabethville and elsewhere. But I am certainly not wedded to the exact terms of this Question. I should be quite prepared to rephrase the Question by inserting the words "allegations of" before the word "atrocities", if that would meet the wishes of the House.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, I think that would probably meet the noble Viscount's point. I do not necessarily want to say any more than that.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, I am much obliged to the noble Lord, Lord Colyton. Then, with the Question in that form, we can have that short amount of discussion of which the House usually approves on an Unstarred Question, and compare his statements with what we can produce on our side.

PIPE-LINES BILL [H.L.]
2.50 p.m.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO (LORD MILLS): My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be read a second time. This measure owes its origin to the Parliamentary debate on the Esso Petroleum Company Bill which took place during the summer of 1960. The Select Committee which reported on that Bill in another place recommended that no further Private Bills should be passed for pipe-line development because the Private Bill procedure allowed insufficient opportunity for protecting the interests affected by this kind of development.
The Government took note of this criticism and my right honourable friend, the Minister of Power, announced just over a year ago that it had been decided to introduce general legislation, so that

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public inquiries could be held into objections against pipe-line projects and that, when a pipe-line promoter was unable to obtain by private treaty the rights he needed for the purpose, the compulsory acquisition of land or rights should be subject to the approval of Parliament. The legislation would also be directed to the orderly development of pipe-lines in the national interest. The Government were then about to consult with various outside bodies about the form that the legislation should take. That consultation took place last summer, and the proposals circulated included provision for safety controls, in addition to the other matters to which I have alluded. The Government have prepared the measure which is now before your Lordships after taking into account the views then expressed by the wide range of bodies consulted.
As is stated in the Explanatory Memorandum, the four main objects of the Bill are: first, to enable the Government to control cross-country pipe-lines in the public interest; secondly, to give people wishing to construct pipe-lines a way of obtaining compulsorily the land or rights they need but cannot obtain by private treaty without having to promote Private Bills; thirdly, to enable the Government to control the construction, operation and maintenance of pipelines in the interest of safety; and, fourthly, to establish that pipe-lines in England and Wales are rateable. I should perhaps say that in the immediate future the kind of pipe-lines that we shall be dealing with will be for carrying crude oil, petroleum products and chemicals, but pipe-lines for carrying coal and other substances may well make their appearance later.
The Bill gives the Government power to exercise control over the development of cross-country pipe-lines, which under Clause 1 include all pipe-lines more than ten miles long. No cross-country pipeline may be built without the authorisation of the Minister, given after due inquiry—to which I shall come in a moment. We do not think it necessary to exercise this kind of control over pipelines not more than ten miles long, referred to in the Bill as "local pipelines", because it is the orderly growth of the long-distance network, as an alternative to the conventional forms of
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transport, that we want to be able to ensure.
Local pipe-lines as a class will comprise many pipe-lines for conveying crude oil from the tanker berth to the refinery, or petroleum products from the berth to the main storage. In the chemical industry many pipe-lines for moving by-products or intermediate products from one chemical plant to another will fall within this class. Such pipelines will usually have little bearing on the development of pipe-lines generally or be of interest to anyone but the promoter. If local pipe-lines involve the grant of compulsory rights, they will of course be subject to the procedure for hearing objections, and the Minister's Orders will be subject to Special Parliamentary procedure, as I will shortly explain. Local pipe-lines will also require planning permission from the local planning authority. But unless there are special reasons for making an exception of any class of local pipe-lines under Clause 6, we have come to the conclusion that there is no point in requiring them to be subject to the Minister's authorisation. To do so would be an unnecessary interference with comparatively minor industrial development.
The Government's policy in controlling the development of cross-country pipe-lines is to allow private enterprise the greatest possible scope, while at the same time guarding against unnecessary pipe-lines. How this is done I will explain in a moment. Our view is that industry should be free to plan their long-distance pipe-lines in the way best suited to meet the needs of their business, subject to the Minister's general control, after hearing any representations about the project which may be put forward by other interests. In this way the Government will be able to learn by experience what the country's needs really are for this form of transport, and will be able to develop their policy on sound lines.
So far as cross-country pipe-lines are concerned, the Minister is to have complete discretion, under Clause 1 (2), whether or not to grant a pipe-line construction authorisation. He could, if he wished, decline to allow the application to proceed unless the route was altered to his satisfaction or unless a fresh scheme was submitted. Under Clause 8

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he may make it a condition of his authorisation that a cross-country pipe-line should be constructed to a capacity that will accommodate other companies' traffic and thus avoid a multiplicity of pipe-lines where one would serve. Owners and occupiers of land would not then be unnecessarily disturbed. The Minister may in those circumstances impose on the pipe-line owner requirements at any time (and not merely at the time of construction) to ensure that other companies using the line are fairly treated. I should point out here that the same pipe-line can carry different products only to a limited extent. In the case of petroleum, the same line can carry a wide range of distillates but it cannot also carry crude oils and products containing residues such as fuel oil. In the case of chemicals the scope is even more limited.
Once the Minister decides that an application to construct a cross-country pipe-line should be allowed to proceed, the promoter has under the First Schedule to advertise the application and notify the local planning authority and anyone else whom the Minister may specify, such as the highway authorities, whose roads the pipe-line will intersect, the water undertakings who draw their supplies from the country where the pipeline will run, and any other public body or private person who, in the Minister's opinion, ought to have the opportunity to comment. Owners and occupiers of land on the proposed route will already have been notified before an application is made to the Minister.
If the local planning authority object, the Minister will be bound to hold a public inquiry into their objections. There will be no bar to a public inquiry in other cases, but the number and nature of objections may not always be such as to justify the trouble and expense of a public inquiry. In that event a less formal hearing is permissible. But if, as a result of hearing objections, the Minister considers that the route of the proposed pipe-line should be altered, he must give an opportunity for objections to the modified route to be held at a public inquiry. Otherwise, after considering the report of the inquiry, the Minister may give his authorisation or reject an application. In order that a pipe-line
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promoter, who has to obtain the Minister's authorisation, may not have to go through the planning procedures as well, Clause 5 enables the Minister, on granting his authorisation, to direct at the same time that planning permission shall be deemed to be granted.
I now come to the question of compulsory acquisition of land and rights. The procedure under Clauses 9 and 10, and the Second Schedule, for the acquisition of land or rights compulsorily, provides a preferable alternative to the Private Bill procedure. When, as I have said, the Esso Bill was debated in another place, the Select Committee were instructed to consider whether the interest of land-owners could be protected by some kind of arrangement for hearing objections, on the lines of the Acquisition of Land (Authorisation Procedure) Act, 1946. Finding that this was not wholly possible under the Standing Orders for Private Bills, the Committee came to the conclusion that, so far as pipe-lines were concerned, Private Bills were an unsatisfactory way of according compulsory powers.
The Second Schedule to the present Bill follows very closely the corresponding provisions of the Acquisition of Land Act. An application for a compulsory purchase or a compulsory rights order has to be advertised and individual notices have to be served on every owner and occupier of land concerned. There must be an inquiry into objections, and the Minister can make an order with or without modification, but with modification only if all parties consent. The order, when made, must be presented to Parliament for confirmation under special Parliamentary procedure, and in this respect the Bill goes a good deal further than the Acquisition of Land Act. That Act applies mainly to acquisition by public authorities, and confirmation by Parliament is required only in respect of certain special classes of land; but the present Bill requires it in all cases, because acquisition by public authorities will be the exception rather than the rule.
The advantages of this procedure are that, not only does it require every owner and occupier of land to be notified in addition to advertisement in the local press, but the Minister can have objections inquired into locally, and

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ensure that the rights and wrongs of the case have been fully looked into before the matter reaches Parliament. This will save Parliament's time, while giving them an opportunity to intervene for the protection of private rights, if at the Parliamentary stage Petitions of objection or Amendments are received. It is worth noting that Clause 42 expressly allows the Minister to combine an inquiry into an application for pipeline construction authorisation, with an inquiry into an application for compulsory purchase or compulsory rights.
Both cross-country pipe-lines and local pipe-lines are subject to provisions for controlling pipe-line works where they intersect the other forms of linear development, such as roads or railways, or cross the waters of harbours. In these cases, the consent of the highway authority, the railway or the harbour authority has to be obtained and, if it is a road or a railway that is to be crossed, plans and sections have to be agreed. A glance at the map will show that in most parts of the country the most frequent crossings the pipe-line will meet will be those of roads and highways. Clause 14 of the Bill—
LORD SILKIN: My Lords, would the noble Lord forgive me for interrupting? I do not know whether he has finished the part of his speech which relates to compulsory purchase and compulsory rights. But I wonder whether he could make clear in what circumstances one would be used, and in what circumstances the other would be used. They seem to be interchangeable in the Bill.
LORD MILLS: My Lords, the procedure is the same. But compulsory purchase will be used where it is necessary to acquire land on which to put a boosting station, or something of that kind; whereas for the ordinary path of a pipe-line a compulsory right to put it there will be sufficient.
LORD SILKIN: My Lords, in every case there will be some interference with the surface. Is it contemplated that in those cases there will be a purchase or a right; or will there be compensation to the owner for disturbance?
LORD MILLS: My Lords, I shall deal with the question of compensation later in my speech.
LORD SILKIN: No, my Lords. I want to be clear about the question of rights or purchase in the case I have mentioned. The noble Lord is explaining the Bill, and to me this is little vague. I wonder whether in a case where disturbance of the surface was involved he would regard that as a case for purchase or for rights.
LORD MILLS: My Lords, it would probably be a case for rights. But if the value of the land had been altered there would also be a claim for compensation.
LORD WILMOT of SELMESTON: My Lords, does that mean that a constructor might conceivably obtain rights to dig trenches and holes in other people's land without purchasing it?
LORD MILLS: That is just what it does mean, my Lords, and I should think that in most cases it will be obtained voluntarily by agreement without any question of compulsion coming into it.
I was dealing with the question of highway authorities. Clause 14 of the Bill, which sets out the principles on which highway authorities may give or withhold consent to road crossings, also has the effect of bringing into play the standard codes for street works contained in the Public Utilities Street Works Act of 1959. These ensure that before pipe-line works are carried out in a street (which includes a road or highway) both the highway authority and any bodies such as electricity boards, gas boards, water companies and the General Post Office (who may have pipes or cables in the street that will be affected) are given due warning. For the protection of the river boards, Section 31 of the Land Drainage Act, 1961, will apply. This forbids the building of any structure over a main drainage channel without the river board's consent.
The next feature of the Bill which I would mention is the safety controls which the Minister is empowered to exercise under Clause 20 at the time the pipe-line is constructed, and under Clause 23 in relation to operation and maintenance. At the time of construction the Minister may require works to be carried out in a particular way. He may also direct with what materials it is to be constructed, the type of components to be used and the depth at which the line is to be laid. These

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powers will enable the Minister to safeguard other people's cables and apparatus which may be affected by the pipeline works and to ensure that pipe-lines do not interfere with ploughing and other agricultural operations. If the pipe-line owner fails to comply with the Minister's directions under Clause 20, the Minister may order him to remove the works or remedy the defect. In the last resort he may remove the lines or works himself. Under Clause 33, a pipe-line owner is required to notify the Minister of abandonment or disuse, and under Clause 24 the Minister may require him to take steps so that the pipe-line does not become a source of danger, particularly to water supplies which may be drawn from that area.
Clauses 25 to 29 empower the Minister to have encroachments removed from the route of a pipe-line. This is necessary so that the pipe-line owner may continue to have access to the line for maintenance and repair and so that the pipe-line may not be damaged by a building or structure on top of it. Spoil and refuse may have to be removed if dumped on the route of the line, because some kinds of refuse—ashes, for example —could create an acid solution when rainwater drains through them, and when this reaches the pipe-line, if the wrapping of the pipe-line should happen to have been damaged, corrosion and leakage will occur. These clauses are, in principle, based on the precedent of Section 16 of the Land Powers (Defence) Act, 1958, which applies to Government oil pipe-lines, but the detailed procedure in the Bill for demolition of building follows similar provisions in the Housing Act, 1957.
Under Clause 34, the Minister can require a pipe-line owner to have a scheme ready for immediately informing the police, fire services, water undertakers and other public authorities in the event of a leaking pipe-line. If a pipe-line is carrying motor spirit, for example, a leak may be dangerous, both because the liquid is highly inflammable and also because it would be liable to contaminate water supplies. Prompt action has therefore to be taken so that the public authorities concerned may do whatever is necessary in the circumstances. Clause 30 of the Bill requires that certain serious pipe-line accidents
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shall be reported to the Minister, who can set up a court of inquiry under Clause 31. Under Clause 31, the Minister has power to appoint inspectors to assist him in the execution of the Bill. They are likely to be required mostly for the purpose of the Minister's functions regarding safety and related matters.
Having so far outlined how the Bill provides for the control of pipe-line development, compulsory rights and safety, I should say a word or two about compensation. So far as compulsory rights are concerned, Clause 11 follows closely the corresponding provisions for Government oil pipe-lines in Section 18 of the Land Powers (Defence) Act, 1958. When a compulsory right over land is granted, the owner can claim compensation for any consequent depreciation in the value of the land. This would ordinarily be determined by taking the difference between the market values before and after. Compensation for compulsory acquisition of land will be determined, as in all other cases, by the Land Compensation Act, 1961. Under that Act, the value is taken to be what the property would fetch if offered by a willing seller on the open market; and prospects of future development within defined limits are a permissible element in the calculation.
Damage to property caused by the operation of a pipe-line in pursuance of a compulsory right is, under Clause 11, to be made good by the owner of a pipeline without requiring proof of negligence. Here again, the Bill follows closely Section 18 of the Land Powers (Defence) Act. Where the rights are conferred by private treaty, owners and occupiers of land should obtain no less favourable terms in their agreements. If they find any difficulty, they have only to object, and the pipe-line promoter will have to apply for a compulsory rights order.
Certain lengths of pipe-line are not subject to control under the Bill because they are constructed and operated by various authorities having special functions and duties under their own Statutes, and with their own powers of compulsory acquisition. Government oil pipe-lines, for example, are governed by the Land Powers (Defence) Act; gas boards, electricity boards and the

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Atomic Energy Authority under the relevant Acts which set them up; and water undertakings by the Water Acts. Railway pipe-lines, which are used in connection with railway activities will, for the same reason, not be controlled by the Bill. But if the railways construct pipe-lines as a general means of transport, the Bill will apply. It will likewise apply to any pipe-lines the Coal Board may build, because their powers of compulsory acquisition are strictly limited, and they would otherwise have no alternative but to promote legislation if they needed to acquire compulsory rights. The controls under the Bill are obviously inappropriate for domestic pipes and pipes wholly within factories, mines, docks, and building sites, and these are likewise excluded.
The liability of pipe-lines in England and Wales to be assessed to rates is laid down in Clause 38. The need for this clause arises because, although pipelines had always been regarded as rateable under Section 24 of the Rating and Valuation Act, 1925, the Lands Tribunal, in deciding a recent appeal case, came to the conclusion that pipelines could not be assessed to rates under that section. There is no reason why pipe-lines should not pay rates, and Clause 38 repairs the defect in the law; otherwise a substantial amount of rate income would be lost. The 1925 Act does not apply to Scotland, and the rateability of pipelines in Scotland is not in question.
The interests affected by general legislation about any linear development like pipe-lines are bound to be diverse and sometimes conflicting. It is therefore too much to hope that the Bill in its entirety will be equally welcome to everybody. The Government, however, believe that it strikes a fair balance between all interests concerned, while providing an instrument to control future pipe-line development without excessive interference in details. I therefore beg to move that your Lordships give it a Second Reading.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Mills.)
3.22 p.m.
LORD MORRISON OF LAMBETH: My Lords, we are all grateful to the Minister without Portfolio for the
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thorough and detailed manner in which he has described the provisions of this not unimportant Bill. The things he did not deal with were some matters of policy, and possible alternative ways of dealing with the matter, to which I shall refer; but he has given us an exposition that makes clear what is the meaning and the purpose of the Bill. I am not clear myself why, as stated by the noble Lord, there should be at any rate a substantial exemption in the case of pipe-lines of less than ten miles. They can be a serious proposition, possibly causing a serious interference with existing rights in the countryside, and I should have thought that ten miles is rather a considerable length to leave out of the full provisions of the Bill as presented to us. Indeed, on reading the Bill it becomes increasingly apparent that this is not a Bill which itself gets things done. This is an enabling Bill to enable other people to apply to get things done, and in that respect it is somewhat exceptional that it should be merely an enabling Bill for this purpose.
The Minister has explained that the Bill would be operated by the Minister of Power, and I must say that I and my noble friends are a little mystified as to why the appropriate Minister should be the Minister of Power. If the pipe-lines were exclusively concerned with oil for locomotive purposes there might have been something to be said for that, though I still think that it is not a conclusive argument. But, as I understand it, these pipe-lines may be used for quite a variety of purpose, not only for liquids, but in many cases for solids as well. Therefore, these pipe-lines are a means of transportation: that is the essential characteristic of the proposed pipe-lines. They will compete in that respect with the railways and commercial road transport—and I do not say that there is necessarily any sin in that aspect of competition. The pipe-lines may represent a considerable economy in the transportation of certain commodities; but, as it is a Bill which deals with transportation, and as it has repercussions on the railways and on commercial road transport, I myself should have thought that it was more appropriate for the Ministry of Transport to be in charge of the operation of the Bill.
My Lords, it may be said that the Minister of Transport has a great deal

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to do at present, especially when he adds to his necessary official labours his numerous public appearances, with an attendance of photographers and reporters, to which he must devote a considerable amount of time. I am sure he enjoys every minute of it. Far be it for me to try to interfere with the Minister's pleasure, but that is the only reason I can see why the Bill does not go to the Minister of Transport. It is true that the Minister of Power has probably a lighter task of work, though not an inconsiderable one; but perhaps, when the Minister comes to reply, we can be told why the operation of the Bill has gone to the Minister of Power and not to the Minister of Transport, because this is really wholly a matter of transportation of one thing and another.
My Lords, may I apologise to the House? I have to leave the House about four o'clock, but I will come back as soon as I can. An appointment has cropped up which I cannot very well get out of, but I will do my best to come back. I do not like to take on these jobs and then not go through with them, but the time factor has made it inevitable.
There are some points which I should like to raise about the fundamental policy of the Bill. I have before me a memorandum—which on the whole, I think, accepts the Bill—circulated by Trunk Pipelines, Limited. I presume they are a company formed in anticipation of the passage of the Bill, or, if not, they would themselves have promoted private legislation; but I think they will be content to sail under the Bill, especially in view of the Minister's exposition. This memorandum says:
"The quid pro quo for this "—
that is, the concessions—
"should be that they operate in the general public interest, and not primarily for the purpose of reaping a profit."
Then it goes on to describe the pipe-line as a public utility, which undoubtedly it is.
It has long been a general practice in our country that public utilities are eligible to be operated by public authority. It is true that the railways had a long run before they came under public ownership. If railways are properly described as public utilities (which
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I suppose they are), then it is a good thing for the railways that they were taken over by the public; otherwise, the poor shareholders would have been bankrupt by now. They would not have been getting any interest at all, and, indeed, the community is not getting much by way of financial return from the publicly-owned concern; but, as I say, the shareholders would have been bankrupt if the railways had not been taken over. However, that is by the way.
My Lords, take the City of Birmingham when it had a substantial and pretty permanent Conservative majority on the municipality. The "big noise" in the early days was Joseph Chamberlain; and a great municipal job he did. And so did Neville Chamberlain, too. They had a settled Conservative doctrine that all public utilities—water, tramways, gas, electricity—were to be owned by the municipal Corporation of the County Borough of Birmingham; and, to summit all, they achieved the amazing decision, under the advice of Mr. Neville Chamberlain, to operate a municipal bank. They invaded the holy of holies, the banking system. What was good enough for the Corporation of Birmingham when it was Conservative surely ought to be good enough for my noble friend opposite—for the noble Lord opposite: I referred to him as "my noble friend" because he used to work for me, and I cannot quite get out of the habit. Why should the modern Conservative Party be more Right-Wing than were Joseph Chamberlain and Neville Chamberlain?
I should have thought that, if ever there was a public utility which will be of vital interest to the whole country and which will concern a wide variety of sections of the community, as is contemplated by the Bill, it is the provision of pipe-lines. I think that a prima facie case exists for some form of public operation, public authority and public ownership. There is just as much a case here as there is for the highways of our country, which are publicly owned and operated by an alliance between the Ministry of Transport and the highway authorities. Nobody would dream of renting out highways to private contractors, with an elaborate scheme of ministerial approval, orders and what-not. It seems to me that these pipe-lines are in the nature of highways, because they

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will do work which otherwise would be done by railways or road transport. Surely, therefore, there is a case for some principle of public ownership and operation to be applied.
I am a reasonable sort of man and I am not dogmatic as to how it should be done. I do not say that it should be done in a particular way, and there are a variety of ways in which it could be done. It could be done by direct State departmental management and administration. I think that perhaps we have all got into a mood of thinking that public concerns have always to be public corporations. I have had a lot to do with the philosophy of public corporations, starting with my London Passenger Transport Bill in 1931. I had a hard fight to convert the Labour Party to that idea, but having converted them, I cannot stop them. They are in the mood that everything has to be a public corporation.
When electricity and gas were nationalised, and the Bills were dealt with very ably by my right honourable friend Mr. Shinwell, for the Labour Government, I thought there was something to be said for direct departmental administration, rather than by a public corporation. Maybe my noble friends do not agree with me. But I do not want us to become slaves of one particular form of public ownership. The Post Office is run by a State department and it has not done badly. The postmen—the Union of Post Office Workers and the Post Office Engineering Union —have their grievances, but it is a pretty good show.
Another way of running the pipe-lines would be by public corporation. Perhaps it might be thought that it would be better to keep them out of Parliamentary politics, though this Government have done a number of things about corporations that have landed them in Parliamentary politics, sometimes in a bad way. Another way would be to make them part of the British Transport Commission. Let the Commission run them, not necessarily through the railway boards, but possibly by a separate board within the framework of the Commission. I invite the Government to give consideration to these suggestions.
I think that there is this advantage in public ownership. The operation of this
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Bill and the coming of pipe-lines depend upon some private concern taking the initiative. That means that they will naturally consider: is this an easy profit-maker? I am not against people getting a reasonable profit for their labours, and I am not against the State getting a profit. I do not like public concerns to lose money, though sometimes that cannot be avoided. But the private operator is bound to look at it in that way and want to have things pretty safe before he looks at it. The Bill relies on a private individual or company taking the initiative; and if they do not do so, there will be no pipe-line to operate, perhaps in an area and for a purpose which make it highly desirable.
Further, as the noble Lord has mentioned. there are considerable powers in the Bill for the Minister of Power to stipulate this and that regulation, and if we are to have private undertakings running what will be arteries of the nation, just as much as the transport system, it is inevitable that there will be a great deal of bureaucratic interference with these undertakings, which cannot avoid becoming geographical monopolies. They must be, otherwise we should have undertakings falling over each other, and there would be too many pipe-lines about. If we have private enterprise, with its major motive of achieving commercial profit and its monopolistic tendencies, it is bound to be the case that the State will impose upon them a large number of bureaucratic stipulations, regulations and controls. This means that the Minister of Power (if he is to be the appropriate Minister under the law) will have a busy time making stipulations; the pipe-line undertakings will have an irritating time with all the regulations that will be landed upon them; and I should think that the Ministry will spend as much time in laying down stipulations and supervising these pipe-lines as it would take them to run the whole show themselves.
It seems to me a foolish thing that the Government have not given adequate consideration to making these pipe-lines a public concern of some sort. I am surprised that the Minister Without Portfolio did not mention the point as a

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possible way of doing it and then explain, if he so desired, why the Government did not take the view that that would be the wisest course. However, he will have an opportunity of giving us an explanation on that point, from the Governmental point of view, when he comes to reply.
Another point that has to be considered is the fact that the Government propose that the decision of the Minister on such questions as the siting of pipelines—though the local planning authorities can be heard—is to be taken automatically as a town planning consent, as if the consent had been given by a local planning authority. So that the Minister is going to usurp the planning functions of the county and the county borough. This Goverment, starting with Mr. Brooke, and going on to his less experienced successor, have been boasting that in the Local Government Act, 1948, they took steps for the purpose of lessening State interference with local authorities. That is a principle which I welcome, as an old local government man, and one who has had experience, in the case of a famous bridge, of defying the Government and Parliament when they wanted to interfere with us as to what sort of bridge we should build —and our objection succeeded. In the case of the London Scheme, which we shall be debating to-morrow, the Government are arguing that they are seeking to lessen State interference with local government. But at the same moment as the Government boast that they are seeking to lessen State interference in local government, they introduce a Bill which gives complete power to the Minister of Power to overrule the statutory responsibilities and functions of the local planning authority. That seems to me to be a bit doubtful, and, if I may say so, a bit "hot".
There is another point that I think ought to be considered. What is going to happen about these highly important pipe-lines if we should have a national emergency—and I am thinking particularly of the 'horrible possibility of a war. No end of mischief could be done to these pipes by enemy agents, or possibly by an enemy from the air. There are two points that I should like to raise. First, is the covering of the pipes sufficiently protective that it would not be
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upset, at any rate by what has come to be termed, in extraordinary language, as a conventional bomb? Would it withstand such an explosion? For a hydrogen bomb, I cannot answer. Secondly, ought not the Bill to provide that in the case of an emergency the Government reserve the right to take these things over into direct State administration and protection? There is nothing in the Bill about this.
It may be said that inevitably, if, unfortunately, we should have another war, at the beginning of that war, as at the beginning of the last, an Emergency Powers Bill would be brought forward (I have no doubt that it is already in draft it should be) and Parliament would quickly pass it. But, in the new circumstances, another war (which Heaven forbid!) would be likely to break out without a declaration of war and without any previous intimation; and it might in those circumstances, set Parliament a very difficult task, to pass an Emergency Powers Bill. I should have thought, therefore, that there ought to be in the Bill powers for the Government to take over these concerns, quite apart from the fact that I think the Government ought to have a hand in this matter all the way along, by way of some public ownership and some form of public administration.
I gather from this Memorandum from Trunk Pipelines, Limited, to which I have referred, that they are willing to make arrangements—in fact, I think they have actually made some arrangements—with the British Transport Commission. They say:
"However, the Company feels that in principle the right which, in their Agreement with the Company, the British Transport Commission have reserved to participate financially, is appropriate."
That is good, so far as it goes. I think it is right that the British Transport Commission should be in it; and if there is money to be made, I hope they will get their full share—they need it. I do not see anything in this Bill that will enable the Transport Commission to participate in investing in such a concern, or entering into a partnership and joint management of it, but I find in the Transport Bill, which I gather is now before a Standing Committee of another place, under a guillotine, that, in

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fact such powers are contained in Clause 12 (1). That says:
"Subject to this section, the Boards shall have power"—
that refers to the Transport Boards, of course—

"(a) to construct and operate pipe-lines in Great Britain; and

(b) to enter into transactions with other persons for the construction or operation by those other persons of pipe-lines on land in Great Britain belonging to the Board."

The Minister did not mention that Clause 12 (1) (a) of the Transport Bill proposes a specific power to the British Transport Commission to construct and operate pipe-lines in Great Britain. The matter is 'not mentioned in the Bill we are discussing to-day, but I should have thought that something would need to go into the Bill, in order to regularise the point. Or is it the intention of the Government that the British Transport Commission should be encouraged to go in for construction and management of pipe-lines on their own responsibility? If that should be so, it is one of my alternatives. But, knowing the Government, as I do, for good or ill, I find it difficult to believe that that is what they mean. Perhaps the noble Lord will be good enough to tell us about that when he comes to reply. Under the Transport Bill the British Transport Commission can construct and operate pipe-lines in Great Britain, or they may enter into transactions with other persons for so doing, which, indeed, is what is contemplated by Trunk Pipelines, Limited.
I do not know that I need say any more about the Bill. It is an interesting Bill on an interesting and most important subject. This is the beginning of a new age of transport by underground—and by that I do not mean the Tube or the District Railway. It is key transport, and it may well become increasingly important as the years pass. There may, indeed, be, for example, international connections between us and France, where they have made considerable progress. I hope that the points I have made on behalf of my noble friends will be given understanding and not unsympathetic consideration by the Government. We are not proposing to divide on this Bill, but no doubt we shall put down Amendments for the Committee stage, and I hope that they also may receive your Lordships' sympathetic consideration.
3.48 p.m.
LORD AMULREE: My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord who has just spoken that this is indeed a most interesting Bill, of a type which we have not had come before us previously. I should like to join with him, too, in thanking the noble Lord who moved the Second Reading of the Bill for the extremely simple and easy way in which he explained its rather complicated purpose. Obviously there must be enormous advantages to be obtained from transporting goods of all sorts underground. One thing about which I am particularly pleased is that we may not in future find the roads of this country blocked or taken up by these enormous transport carriers, transporting petrol and fuel oil. It is far better that that should, if possible, be transported underground. Therefore, from the point of the road user the Bill will be of great value.
The same thing applies to the railways, I think, although they will probably like to do some of the transporting themselves. I think the idea put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Morrison of Lambeth, that the railways might be allowed to share in the pipe-lines scheme, is one well worthy of consideration, and might well, indeed, bring some money into the coffers of the British Transport Commission. But these are not the points that I proposed to raise.
There is one item which appears to be omitted from the Bill which causes me a certain amount of worry. I refer to the possible danger to domestic water supplies which may occur under this Bill. The Minister has told us that under Clause 34 the local water undertaking shall be informed if something goes wrong with a pipe-line, if there is a burst or a leak. But I am not sure whether that is enough. Here I must declare an interest in the matter, for I am one of the directors of a water company in the Home Counties which draws its supply from wells and bore-holes in chalk. As your Lordships know, chalk can be extremely porous, both because of the nature of the chalk itself and because it contains fissures from which water can be drawn quite a long way from the source.
One would have liked to see something in the Bill about the necessity for

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consultation with the local water undertaking, the local health authority, or possibly with the Ministry of Health, before the construction of pipe-lines was undertaken. I entirely agree that there is a certain amount of protection—in fact, quite a lot—given to water undertakings by the various Water Acts, but, somehow, when things fall between two Acts of Parliament they sometimes tend to go wrong, and one would have liked to see something of that sort in the Bill we are discussing this afternoon.
The pollution of water for drinking purposes by petrol or fuel oil can be extremely serious. By that, I do not mean necessarily serious to health, but it can make the water pumped from the wells which have been contaminated quite unpotable for a good long time, because it makes it taste so unpleasant. It will not poison people, but it makes the water repulsive to taste. Sometimes it takes several months before the supply can be properly restored. One example occurred in 1960, where the water was drawn from a limestone catchment, which is very porous. By some mischance a quantity of petrol was allowed to get upon the catchment area, which very quickly got into the well from which the water was drawn. From January 19 it took until April 12 before the water from that well could be used for human consumption again. During that time about 30 or 40 million gallons of water needed to be pumped to waste, which gives some indication of the danger that can occur.
May I quote two examples from the undertaking with which I am concerned? On two occasions some fuel oil got into one of the wells, but did not go out to supply. The amount of oil which got in was very small but it took four, five or even six days before the well could be used again. In the meantime, a large amount of water needed to be pumped to waste. One knows quite well that pipes can burst or leak, and there is no more reason why they should not burst or leak if they contain fuel oil than if they contain water for drinking purposes. I think that, before this Bill came along, in one or two Private Bills where pipelines were mentioned, the British Water Works Association managed to get some provision put into the Bill whereby the water undertakers were consulted and
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there was rather more protection than is given in this Bill. I merely raise that point to ask whether the Minister would consider putting something into the Bill before it comes back to the House again to cover this important point. I have explained to the Minister that, unfortunately, it may be necessary for me to leave the House before he comes to reply, but whether I am here or not I hope it will be possible for him to deal with this point.
3.55 p.m.
LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE: My Lords, we are all indebted to the noble Lord, Lord Mills, for his clear exposition of this interesting Bill. It is interesting because it gives powers for the compulsory purchase of private property to a private company without Private Bill procedure. From the authorities I have consulted, I cannot find that such powers have been given to other than a statutory undertaking hitherto. So I suggest that the questions to which your Lordships should address yourselves for a few moments are whether this is desirable in the way the Bill proposes, both from the standpoint of the tendency to increase the powers of government at the centre and give more powers to the Minister and, secondly, from the standpoint of the interests of those affected by the possible application of this Bill, for the rights of objectors are certainly diminished under the Statutory Orders (Special Procedure) Act, 1945. There are certain other provisions by which they are diminished. I will mention these in a moment, and I suggest that the House should watch them in Committee.
The second main object of the Bill is defined in the Explanatory Memorandum as
"to enable a person wishing to construct a cross-country pipe-line or a local pipe-line to obtain compulsorily the land and rights he needs without having to promote a private Bill."
I suggest to your Lordships that that is by no means the object which the Select Committee on the Esso Bill had in recommending Government legislation. It is true that the Report of the Select Committee of another place on the Esso Petroleum Company Bill said:
"They wish, however, to make it clear that they have. within the Private Bill procedure, been unable to give the full protection offered by the Acquisition of Land (Authorisation Procedure) Act, 1946. For this reason they

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are convinced that Private Bill procedure is not the best way of safeguarding the interests of owners, lessees and occupiers where a pipeline is to be constructed."
That is quite true; but the object of the recommendation of the Select Committee was to improve the safeguards of the interests of those who might be affected. I think one should ask whether the provisions of the Bill, as proposed by Her Majesty's Government, in fact do this. I would also remind your Lordships that your Lordships' Select Committee made no such recommendation as the Select Committee of another place.
There are one or two points I should like to mention to your Lordships. The First Schedule of the Bill requires a pipeline applicant to notify only people whom the Minister may specify. That is a diminished right as compared to the Private Bill procedure, the Standing Orders for which require the promoter to notify all land owners, tenants and occupiers. I cannot quite understand the reason why an applicant for a pipe-line should not be required to take this minimum amount of trouble. In any case, how is the Minister to know whom he is to specify?
The next point I would suggest to the Minister for consideration is that local pipe-lines are not even subject to this requirement—and, as my noble friend Lord Morrison of Lambeth said, a local pipe-line (that is, one under ten miles), can indeed be quite a major project—although a pipe-line up to ten miles in length can be scheduled by the Minister to have to undergo, as it were, the provisions relating to a main pipe-line. The First Schedule requires a public inquiry only where a local planning authority has objected to a cross-country pipe-line and a less formal hearing where the objectors are not planning authorities. I find it difficult to see what is gained by this. It may be very unfair to groups of residents, since, at an informal hearing, I do not assume they wilt be able to cross-examine the applicants' witnesses. I personally, and perhaps other noble Lords, should like to hear something more about this new procedure of less formal hearings. I think it is something which both Houses of Parliament are entitled to know about in much fuller detail from the Executive.
Another point is that Special Parliamentary procedure is proposed to be
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applied. I admit it applies only to compulsory purchase; but an owner will be negotiating with a private company under duress, under the threat of compulsory powers. Always the negotiating company can say to him: "If you do not agree with my proposition, in the final event I will apply for compulsory purchase powers". I do not defend in any way any attempt by an owner of property to hold up to ransom those who are about to undertake this work, but I do defend the freedom of private citizens from a threat by a private company to take over their property from the advantage of the position given them under this Bill as it stands.
It is, of course, true that under the Special Parliamentary procedure an objector can petition; but, if he petitions he has only one shot, as there is a Joint Select Committee of both Houses; whereas under Private Bill procedure an objector can go first to one Select Committee and then to the other. Moreover, Special Parliamentary procedure does not really give him the freedom of objection which the Private Bill procedure does. I would remind the House of a ruling in this connection given in another place by Mr. Speaker, when he said [OFFICIAL REPORT, Commons, Vol. 649 (No. 16), col. 1076]:
"On a Statutory Order of this kind, one thing we cannot discuss is alternative means of obtaining the same object."
That really, under this procedure, cuts away the ground from any person who is objecting.
My mind turns to possible alternative provisions in the event of an irreconcilable difference between the purchaser and the prospective vendor as to what is a fair price. I think it is worth consideration by Her Majesty's Government as to whether there should not be some reasonable arbitration provisions on this particular point which might be simple and effective. My Lords, while not opposing the Bill, I have tried to put these points before your Lordships and I hope that your Lordships will agree that they are points worth watching from the standpoint of the interests of the individual citizen and his freedom and from the standpoint also of giving ever greater powers to the Executive. I hope we shall come back to these questions during the Committee and later stages of this Bill.
4.5 p.m.
LORD MERRIVALE: My Lords, I think that it is interesting that we should be considering this measure exactly one hundred years after a Mr. L. Hutchinson of New York laid the first pipe-line. This pipe-line was a short one indeed and ran from Tarr Farm Wells to the nearby refinery and subsequently was extended a few miles to run to the nearest railway. I would add that initially this pipe-line was not successful. However, that two-inch diameter pipe-line was the forerunner of hundreds of thousands of miles of trunk pipe-lines which are now situated around the world for the conveying of crude oil, petroleum products and natural gas.
For instance, France has 1,345 miles of pipe-line for the distribution of the natural gas from Lacq, which is in south-west France, and there is a pipeline for crude oil which runs from Parentis, also in the south-west of France, to Bec d'Ambes, at the mouth of the Dordogne, north of Bordeaux. This pipe-line serves to supply the Esso refinery there and its total length is in the region of 53 miles. Finally, with regard to the French pipe-lines, there is a further pipe-line for petroleum products which runs from Havre to the Paris area for a total distance of 152 miles. I particularly mention this pipe-line for I understand that a group in this country are proposing to apply, under Clause 1, for a pipe-line construction authorisation for a similar pipe-line for the conveyance of clean oil products, to run from Canvey Island to 'the Birmingham area, a total distance of 178 miles. As this pipe-line and similar ones will be serving a number of users, I think and trust that the Minister will, when considering such applications, give serious consideration to future forecasts with regard to the demand for using such a pipe-line, especially with regard to its diameter, therefore its capacity, bearing in mind, of course, the need for an economic charge per ton mile to be made for the conveyance of the product.
The Havre-Paris pipe-line has a ten-inch diameter pipe and, in view of Clause 23 (1) (b), it may interest your Lordships to know that pressures do not exceed 995 lb. per square inch, while in the Paris area the pressure is limited to around 426 lb. per square inch. Thus, this pipe-line has a yearly capacity of
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2,200,000 tons with an 8,000-hour usage per year; that is, considering usage around eleven months.
To pass from technical considerations to the question of the general public interest, I think it is interesting that such a pipe-line was considered to be a public utility according to French Law No. 1060 of August 2, 1949. Here I should like to recall some of the words which were written in the editorial article of The Times on March 1 of this year:
"Pipe-line owners are being granted something of the status of public utilities. In particular, they are being given the power, subject to various limitations, to acquire compulsorily or extinguish other private person's rights. The quid pro quo for this should be that they operate in the general public interest and not primarily for the purpose of reaping a profit."
Therefore, I feel we must make quite sure that these private persons' rights are properly protected and that these people do not come off any worse than they would do under Private Bill procedure. I do not propose to develop that point any more, because my noble friend Lord Balfour of Inchrye has covered the ground very effectively and persuasively as to the merits or demerits of Special Parliamentary procedure as against Private Bill procedure.
Clause 8, I feel, requires careful scrutiny, too. On the one hand, there is the pipe-line owner who purely for technical considerations—I stress, for technical considerations—may find it very difficult to comply with the directives of the Minister's notice. Take for instance the case of the china clay industry. Their products are of one specified class, but there are about one hundred different qualities of the same specific gravity, so that a low-grade product of one producer could mix quite well in the pipe-line with a high-grade product of another producer, as it is of the same specific gravity. But then if one considers the case of the petroleum industry and the dispatching of various grades of clean products, the same difficulties would not arise.
To illustrate this point, I should like again, if I may, to refer to the Havre—Paris pipe-line, where multi-user operation is in force and is very satisfactorily carried out by careful planning of despatching, including—and this is very important—the adoption of a definite cycle or sequence of products in the pipe-line.

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It may be, therefore, that in view of the technical and the operational aspects involved such arrangements may possibly be better arrived at by a mutual agreement than as suggested under Clause 8—in saying that, I mean mutual agreement between the parties or the various users who might be concerned in the future. I feel, too, that it may well be that such agreement could possibly be reached before the application was made. On the other hand, I agree that there is a strong case whenever—and I stress this—it is technically and economically practical for the Minister to insist on a multi-user principle in the general public interest. But if it is possible to achieve agreement with the various users I must say I would opt for that system in preference to a ministerial directive.
Further with regard to the provisions of Clause 8, I feel that a fine of £20 per day if an operator does not comply with a ministerial requirement is indeed a very low figure when one comes to think that tens of thousands of gallons daily would be involved. That is why I feel that a maximum sum of £20 may not be a disincentive to non-compliance with the Minister's requirements.
With regard to short pipe-lines, under Clause 2, if they are of ten-mile length or less sixteen weeks' notice must be given to the Minister before work can start. Although it does state that the Minister may allow a shorter period in a particular case, I feel that for very short lengths—that is, for instance, half mile lengths—such notification should not be necessary. It may well be that such short lengths may be purely factory links or links between chemical plants where a portion of the pipe-line would be just outside the curtilage of one factory. In other words, it could possibly be a very short pipe-line which would link up two factory sites which were in close proximity. Or, on the other hand, it may be a short extention to a pipe-line used for conveying minerals from a mine or a quarry to nearby premises for treatment or adaptation for sale, or for the conveyance of brine from the brine field to the salt extraction works.
The serving of notices and counter notices which may have to be served too may take up a number of months and in such cases could cause unwarranted dislocation to industrial processes. At
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the moment, so far as the minerals industry is concerned, such matters are effectively and satisfactorily dealt with under the Mines (Work Facilities and Support) Act, 1923. Clause 47 will, therefore, have the effect of doing away with a system which works perfectly, and will involve mineral undertakings in a dual procedure and in having to deal with extra tribunals; that is, if they have to have recourse to the provisions of Clause 10 regarding rights over land. They may also be involved in Special Parliamentary procedure, apart altogether from possibly having to go to the High Court to acquire lands for mineral development for which planning permission has already been granted. I feel that in cases like these there can well be involved a duplication of effort and paper work. For the moment the High Court can consider all aspects of an application for the development of land which has minerals, even if it also implies the construction of a pipe-line. Therefore, I hope that, possibly at later stages of the Bill, Her Majesty's Government will consider that certain industries may not come under the provisions of this Bill. I should like to stress that under the 1923 Act, to which I referred earlier, all the rights of a landowner are fully protected both by the courts and the local planning authority, and by the Minister of Housing and Local Government.
As I think it is fairly certain that pipelines will be increasingly carrying products which have nothing to do with fuel and power, I should like to have seen inserted in the Bill some sort of reference to the Minister of Power, in appropriate cases, having to consult with the Minister of Housing and Local Government (for I would say that he is the one most au fait with the question of the compulsory acquisition of land) and also, as the case may be, with the President of the Board of Trade. I feel that such consultations would be beneficial in both directions. I would stress, too, because I think that the china clay industry has particular problems, that the Minister of Housing and Local Government should be consulted, and that the industry should be mentioned in the Bill, for the Minister is the one most aware of the problems of that particular industry.

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Finally, with regard to the safety provisions which are written into the Bill in Clauses 20 to 24, and particularly in Clause 23, the Minister is given arbitrary powers, by notice to be served on the persons concerned to comply with requirements which the Bill fails to specify in detail. I should have thought that such safety requirements would be better specified from time to time in the form of regulations. With those few reservations and comments I sincerely believe that this Bill should be given a Second Reading, for it will provide a cheap and effective means of conveyance for a variety of liquids and solids in liquid suspension.
4.25 p.m.
LORD LINDGREN: My Lords, after the excellent speech of my noble friend Lord Morrison of Lambeth I almost withdrew my name from the list of speakers, because there was little left to be said, so far as I was concerned. The only point left to me the noble Lord, Lord Merrivale, took away from me with his quotation from The Times of March 1. There is no need for tedious repetition; therefore, I intend only to emphasise from these Benches the point of view of the need for public control or public operation of this form of transport. As the noble Lord, Lord Merrivale, has so eloquently pointed out, it is not a new form of transport, but it is a developing form. It may not develop so much in this country, as this is a small island and the distances involved are not so great; but there is not the slightest doubt that when developed it will form a better and cheaper form of transport for many types of goods.
Though your Lordships will be aware of my bias in favour of railways, I am not so biased as not to admit that transport ought to be provided by the vehicle that is most suited to the traffic to be carried and the distance it has to travel, irrespective of whether it be by road, rail, inland waterway or by this new method of transport, the pipe-line. But we have to face the fact that the existing forms of surface transport are bound to suffer as the result of the new development of the pipe-line; and because of that I feel that existing forms of transport should have the opportunity of utilising the pipe-line for the carriage of the traffic which they are otherwise
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bound to lose. I am old enough to remember the change in the fortunes of the railways arising from the development of road transport. The position of the railways, pre-war and post-war, would have been much different had there been closer co-ordination between road and rail transport.
Reference has been made by my noble friend Lord Morrison of Lambeth to Clause 12 of the Transport Bill, which is now in the Committee stage in another place. May I further call the attention of the noble Lord who is to reply to the debate to the fact that, in regard to the general laying of pipe-lines, the inland waterways and railways already own the land and provide a good line of communications without need to disturb other landlords. It would seem to me, in the light of the fact that the railways, in particular, are a charge on the State at the present time, that, irrespective of the Transport Bill which is now in another place, or of the activities of Dr. Beeching and the rest, the railways standing on their own will always be a charge. I never see them as a viable industry on their own operation. Therefore surely the sensible thing to do is to tie up with them this new form of transport, thus enabling it to have the advantages of the capital that is already there, in the land, and of the experience the railways already have as a carrier, and allow them to undertake the larger portion of this new form of transport.
Reference has been made, too, to highways. The highways of this country are already overcrowded. All the motoring organisations suggest that in a few years' time they will be much more overcrowded. Highway development is a very heavy cost upon the State; trunk roads cause the expenditure of the Ministry of Transport to rise year by year. As I understand the Bill, the pipeline is likely to be left to the private company; and the private company, of course, will risk its capital only if it is going to make a profit. One does not blame the company: it is there to make a profit; and those who put up the money for the company would not provide it if they were not going to get a return on it. But the fact remains that we are spending millions upon millions of pounds on the improvement and construction of roads in a country in which

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agricultural land is very scarce. I think I might say—although this is not connected with this debate—that arterial roads, trunk roads, and so on, eat up far more agricultural land than does housing for the ordinary working class in this country, and there is not the necessity for high density as there is with housing. If we can have this capital expenditure on roads, why can we not have the same capital expenditure on canals and railways so that the existing systems can be developed, and perhaps leading to a lesser charge on the taxpayers?
My last point is perhaps a point of agreement with the Government. Reference has been made to Clause 8, which deals with compulsory purchase, and the use of this Bill in preference to the Private Bill procedure. I agree with the Government that this is a far better way of dealing with this matter than by the Private Bill procedure. The Private Bill procedure is very costly. If the service is essential for trade, industry and commerce, those who are going to provide it ought not to be put to considerable expenditure, when the only people who really benefit are the lawyers and those associated with the legal profession. If there is any money to spare, I would rather see it going on the provision of transport facilities than lining the pockets of the lawyers. Therefore, on Clause 8 I entirely support the Government.
4.35 p.m.
LORD CONESFORD: My Lords, this is a complicated measure, and my noble friend Lord Mills, in his admirably lucid speech, has. I think, put us all in his debt, because we at least know where to look for the various provisions and have an idea of what they mean. As my noble friend Lord Mills pointed out, this Government legislation is a sequel to the proceedings in another place on the Esso Petroleum Company Bill, and I am in complete agreement, as indeed I think we all are, with one remark made by the noble Lord, Lord Lindgren: that this matter should be dealt with by public legislation. That was indeed the conclusion of the Select Committee in another place.
I wish, in a brief speech, to make one general observation and then to call attention to a few apparent omissions in
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the Bill. My general observation strongly reinforces the point already made by my noble friend, Lord Balfour of Inchrye. The Select Committee of Another place that so carefully considered the Esso Petroleum Company Bill undoubtedly came to the conclusion that Private Bill legislation was inappropriate and that public legislation was required, because they wished to increase the safeguards of owners, lessees and occupiers of land affected. That was their stated object. My first general observation and criticism of this Bill is that, unless we are rather careful to amend it in Commitee, the protection given to the owners and occupiers of land affected by this Bill will be much less than was afforded to them by Private Bill procedure. In so far as that is true, we are certainly not meeting the desire of the Select Committee.
My noble friend Lord Balfour of Inchrye quoted a passage from the penultimate paragraph of the Special Report of the Select Committee. Perhaps I might supplement his quotation by quoting the final paragraph:
"They therefore recommend that no further Private Bills for the construction of pipe-lines should be passed by the House. They were attracted by the idea that such measures should be authorised by Provisional Order. They commend to the House for consideration that a public inquiry should be held before the Order is made and the Order itself should be confirmed by a Provisional Order Bill:"
That was the conclusion of the Select Committee. I am not so far pre-judging things as to say that the Government may not have excellent reasons for now proposing a different procedure; but I think it is right to point out how very far this Bill is from meeting the suggestion of the Select Committee of another place. For that reason I could have wished that this Bill had been introduced in another place, because there are many Members there to whom these problems, through recent experience, are familiar.
Under this Bill the sole protection of the owners and occupiers of land from a decision of a Minister will be the Special Parliamentary procedure. I hope it will not be thought that I am assuming that the Minister—whatever political Party he belonged to—would not do his best to do justice and to serve the public interest, but I think it is a good principle of legislation that we give to private

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individuals whose property and rights are going to be affected safeguards against the uncontrolled action of Ministers. It is quite obvious that under the Private Bill procedure, with all its disadvantages—which I have admitted—in this sphere of activity, the person whose land is adversely affected by the compulsory acquisition either of the land or of rights in land, has the chance of having his case considered by Parliament.
Under this Bill as it stands, where there is a matter of controversy there will be a public inquiry. But, of course, the Minister is not bound by Statute to take any notice of the public inquiry. The conclusion of the public inquiry is in no way binding on the Minister, and there are plenty of examples where the Minister has not agreed with the conclusion of the public inquiry. The only ultimate protection, therefore, will be this Special Parliamentary procedure, and, in the view of many of us, it is doubtful if that will be sufficient.
I now come to what seem to me to be curious omissions from the Bill. I can see no mention at all of what principles those wishing to construct pipelines, either cross-country or local, should observe. In the document that has been circulated to us, to which the noble Lord, Lord Morrison of Lambeth, referred, Trunk Pipelines Limited said that they proposed to obtain the rights they needed, for constructing the pipeline they desired to construct, almost entirely from the British Transport Commission and the North Thames Gas Board; in one case, I think, by easement, and in both by voluntary agreement. No doubt many of the schemes will be designed to interfere as little as possible with a multitude of owners and to avoid wide interference with property, but there is nothing in the Bill which says that the promoter of one of these pipe-lines should observe any principle of that kind. I should have thought there might be a case for putting in a clause to the effect that the promoter should endeavour to do as little injury as possible to private interests and to amenities. After all, we are familiar with clauses of that type in a good deal of public utility legislation, and it is a little curious that the Bill contains no general clause of that kind at all.
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Then, again, is it necessary that the property which can be compulsorily acquired under Clause 9—I am not now dealing with compulsory rights—should be absolutely unlimited? For instance, is it necessary that dwelling-houses should be acquired? I do not suppose for one moment that it is the intention of those who drafted this Bill, or of the Government, that dwelling-houses should be compulsorily acquired, but I can see nothing in the clause which prevents it. It seems to me not impossible that there might be some limitations on what can be compulsorily acquired, which would provide some reassurance and would do no serious damage.
I thought there was another curious omission, although here I may be quite wrong. On first reading the Bill, I thought there was no adequate protection in the event of the explosion of one of these pipes. There are a good many provisions designed to secure safety, but at first reading I admit that I did not find any perfectly clear-cut clause saying that there was an absolute right to compensation in the event of injury caused by an accident to one of these pipe-lines. However, it may be that it is intended to secure this result and to provide for it by Clause 11 (2) of the Bill.
Here is a dangerous thing being brought on land, which is not naturally there, and if the contents escaped or exploded you would desire—irrespective of negligence—that the injured person should have redress. That is what is known as the rule in Rylands v. Fletcher, and I think it would be the general desire that that should apply. From what the Minister said in his speech, I think that Clause 11 (2) is intended to have that effect, but, if that is so, I hope that the draftsmanship will be carefully considered, because it seems to me that the opening words
"Where in the exercise of any right conferred by a compulsory rights order a person suffers loss by reason of damage.…."
are inappropriate. Of course, the person who suffers loss is not the person exercising the right. If it means that, as a result of the right's being exercised, or as a result of one of these pipes being in use, damage is suffered, then I think that the clause will require redrafting. While I am dealing with damage, and

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although I do not know quite how substantial all these undertakers and constructors of pipe-lines will be, I think consideration should be given to whether they should not be obliged compulsorily to insure against the risk.
I think there is a good deal which may need amendment in the Schedules. I decided not to deal with that matter at all this afternoon, because I had the strong hope that my noble friend, Lord Colville of Culross, would himself be present to deal with some of those points, as I very much hope he will in Committee, since his professional experience is both more relevant and far more recent than mine.
In general, those are the observations I wish to make. I have one general criticism: that the Bill, as at present drafted, gives less protection than I am sure the Select Committee of the House of Commons desired to the owners and occupiers affected. For that reason, I am certain that the more trouble we take on the Committee stage of the Bill, the more welcome will be our labours to another place. I wish to conclude with a final plea to Her Majesty's Government. I hope they will very carefully consider the points made in the debate this afternoon and, if they think there is something in them, I hope we shall not be confined to drafting our own Amendments in the Committee stage, but that we shall find some Government Amendments designed to improve the Bill and to meet some of the points that have been raised.
4.48 p.m.
LORD AMHERST OF HACKNEY: My Lords, I think you will all agree that the importance of this Bill has been emphasised by all speakers. Therefore, I do not propose to go into that side in any detail. However, I should like to make one or two general and rather disjointed comments on the Bill. My general feeling about this measure is that it gives a great deal of new power, but I am not quite so happy that it imposes the corresponding duties and safeguards. As regards the duties, I feel that an important aspect is that, when a company comes for authority to build a pipe-line, it should prove that it is in the public interest that this should be done. They are going to get great new powers; they are going to be able to take their
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lines compulsorily across the countryside. It is obviously going to be burdensome to a large number of people, and I feel that it should be a minimum requirement that they should prove to the Minister that it is in the public interest; but, so far as I can see, in the Bill as it now stands there is no guidance given to the Minister on how he should base his decisions.
Secondly, if we are to avoid unduly the burden of too many lines going across the countryside, we must obviously have orderly planning. This means making as much use as possible of existing way-leaves, and also of the principle of the common carrier. There is no doubt that, under Clause 8 of the Bill, the Minister has the power to insist on the common carrier principle; and if, when somebody comes to apply for permission to put down a pipe-line, he is satisfied that somebody else will want to build a pipeline close to it, then he can take certain action and perhaps make the first line larger in order that it may take the product of the second person who wishes to send goods along it. On the other hand, there is no obligation on him to find out what the future needs will be. If he is going to carry out his obligations under this Bill as we should like him to carry them out, then I feel he must have some means of finding out what the future needs for pipe-lines are going to be as soon as the Bill is passed, and be in a position to keep himself continually informed of the situation.
So much for the duties: now I come to the question of the safeguards. As to the procedure, I myself feel that anybody who is likely to be affected should have the right to be heard at a public inquiry. At the moment, there is of necessity a public inquiry only if the planning authority objects to the plan for the line; and that, I feel, is not enough. Then there is the question of Parliamentary procedure, which has been fully dealt with by the noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Inchrye.
The next point concerns the protection of the owners' interest in the land. Although in Clauses 20 to 24 the Bill deals with the safety of pipe-lines, it does not provide otherwise for safeguards to protect the interests of owners and occupiers affected by the works. In 1960, the Esso Company, and, in 1961, the

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Shell-mex and B.P. Company, gave extensive written undertakings to both the National Farmers' Union and the Country Landowners' Association in respect of pipe-lines, and these undertakings not only guaranteed certain minimum payments in return for way-leave rights but laid down a code of protective safeguards concerning the depths of the pipe and the reinstatement of the land, drains and fencing—in fact, a whole multitude of detailed protection. It is the feeling of those authorities that, either in a Schedule to the Bill or by some Regulations made under the Bill, there should be laid down what I might call a minimum code of behaviour to be followed by somebody wishing to lay a pipe-line, and which would become standard practice. The Minister could, in certain cases, add to or subtract from that code, but there it would be approved by Parliament. At the moment, the Minister has powers to make Regulations in each case as he wishes, but one feels the safeguard should be rather stronger than that.
Another point which I wish just to mention is the question of the payment for rights and compensation. This is dealt with in Clause 11, but it does not appear from the Bill what payment, if any, promoters must make for the rights they acquire. Clause 11 lays obligations on the pipe-line promoters to pay full compensation for all loss and damage sustained, and for depreciation in the value of the land—that, the noble Lord, Lord Mills, referred to—but makes no reference to the duty to make realistic payments for the right to enter on the land and to lay pipes. Such payments, I feel, should be recognised, and they have been recognised by all the promoters of pipe-lines in the past. One does not want to feel that, by introducing the element of compulsion (which I am sure, in the last resort, is necessary), we should put people in a worse position than they are in at the moment.
Another point as to compensation that has been provided in the past is that both the pipe-line promoters that I have mentioned, I think, have given a protection regarding compensation in the future. Suppose a field is at the moment a grass field and somebody lays a pipe across it. An area of, I think, about 20 feet is sterilised from the point of view either
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of building over it or of putting anything else over it. When the field is a grass field, it has a certain value. If, at a later stage, that field becomes suitable for, say, building development, the nuisance value and the loss in value through having that sterilised strip becomes very much greater. Certainly, up to the present the promoters of pipe-lines have agreed that they will be liable to reopen the question of compensation in the future.
There are only two other small points to which I should like to refer. The first is in Clause 4, which provides for the removal of works in certain circumstances. So far as I can gather (although I may have misread it), there is no provision for any compensation to the owners of the land. My second point is on the question of maintenance and repair. So far as I can see, this Bill contains no clause to indemnify the owner or occupier against claims arising from damage from pipe-lines on his land; nor are pipe-line promoters made liable for unlawful nuisance. These are all small and disjointed points, but I hope that, when it comes to the Committee stage, the noble Lord, Lord Mills, will listen sympathetically if we try to put forward one or two Amendments. But, generally speaking, I support the Bill.
5.0 p.m.
LORD CHORLEY: My Lords, I should like to add a few words to what has been said in this debate. I think it is obvious that we require a national pipe-line system in the public interest. This Bill does not seem to me to have been adequately thought out, and I felt in strong agreement with the observations which fell from my noble friends Lord Morrison of Lambeth and Lord Lindgren: that the present Government seem to be incapable of organising matters of this type on a national basis. It seems to me that we are in grave danger of repeating the events of the kind which happened in the last century, when railway lines were allowed to proliferate all over the country without any real regard to the scientific and logical development of the railway system.
As Lord Conesford has pointed out, there is really nothing in the way of directive principles laid down in the Bill; and, as Lord Morrison of Lambeth so

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cogently observed, no real thought seems to have been given as to who is the most appropriate Minister to control this new development. I should have thought that, clearly, in the interests of a national pipe-grid system of the kind needed, the noble Lord was right when he said that the Minister of Transport is much more concerned in the matter, and that if the problem is worked out on a logical and scientific basis it will be closely connected with the roads system of the country. When new roads like the M.1 are constructed, the opportunity should be taken to construct the necessary pipe-line at the same time. I should have thought that was obvious and common sense.
There is also a clear interest on the part of the Board of Trade in these matters which is in no way reflected in the Bill, and an even clearer interest by the Ministry of Housing and Local Government, which, in so far as we have a planning Ministry, is the planning Ministry. More than one of your Lordships this afternoon have referred to the importance of the planning angle in this matter; indeed, this appears here and there, in an almost incoherent way, in the provisions of the Bill itself. The Minister of Housing and Local Government is, in effect, concerned with the surface development of the land, and the part he has been given in connection with the transmission of electricity, particularly from the point of view of the preservation of the beauties of the countryside and of the amenities generally, makes it clear beyond peradventure, I should have thought, that he should be playing a very important part, if not the basic part, in the control of this proposed pipe-lines system. But that certainly is not provided in the Bill. There is a good deal of feeling among some, at any rate, of the local authority associations that this is a very grave mistake, and a feeling that, even at this stage, it would be advisable for the Government to think again as to the position of the Minister of Housing and Local Government in this matter.
There are, in my view, a number of other very grave deficiencies in this Bill. While no doubt it appears from the clauses of the Bill that the intention is that these pipe-lines should, on the whole, run underground, so far as I have been able to read the Bill (it may be
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that I have overlooked something) there is no clause in the Bill which insists that they shall be put underground. It is all very well for Ministers to come along and say: "Of course, that will be looked after administratively". But that is not good enough. Before long we shall undoubtedly have cases put up to the Minister that it would be very much cheaper to carry one of these enormous great pipes across some valley, in effect on stilts, than to put it underground through a piece of terrain which is rocky, and where great expense would be incurred. The overlooking of an elementary and important point of this kind seems to me quite symptomatic of the haste and lack of careful thought which has been given by the Government to the provisions of this Bill.
That may have been an oversight, but the failure to have any amenities clause in this Bill certainly cannot be an oversight, because it has been proposed in this House by the very Minister with whom there was a great discussion over the amenities section in the Electricity Act, 1957—Section 37. He will remember it just as well as I do, because he was very much concerned in it. I should have thought that it was perfectly obvious that a Section 37 type of clause is essential in this Bill, because amenities are a very important aspect of this matter. Again, so far as I can see, that is just not provided for in the clauses of this Bill, and one would not imagine that any instructions had been given to the Parliamentary draftsman about the importance of amenities in connection with these pipe-lines going across the countryside. I should like to give the Minister notice that, at the Committee stage of the Bill, I will do my best to have the equivalent of Section 37 of the Electricity Act, 1957, inserted into this Bill.
In much the same sort of way the Bill makes no provision in respect of safeguards for these short local pipe-lines of the kind which, it is true, do appear, up to a point, in connection with cross-country pipe-lines. This again may be a matter which can be put right at the Committee stage; but the fact that in the Bill as it stands this point, and so many of the other points to which attention has been drawn this afternoon by noble Lords, have not been provided for seems to me to show that this Bill has

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not really been properly thought out, and that when it comes to the Committee stage it will require a great deal of work on the part of your Lordships.
5.8 p.m.
THE EARL OF LUCAN: My Lords, the noble Lord, the Minister will have realised from what has been said that there are a number of points in regard to this Bill about which many of your Lordships are uneasy. There are points large and small, but most of them have a good deal of importance. My noble friend Lord Chorley quite rightly mentioned the amenities question. We assume that these pipe-lines are to be buried (I hope the Minister will assure us on that point) and, when they are buried, once the work is done there will be very little above ground to give offence or to cause a nuisance. There are a few pumping stations, I believe, along the route, and there are the terminal stations at both ends; but the amenities question must be the responsibility of the promoters of these pipelines who obtain the Minister's authorisation.
Then there were the points raised by the noble Lords, Lord Conesford and Lord Balfour of Inchrye—extremely important points affecting the rights of the individual. The noble Lord said one thing which gave me some anxiety. Unless I misunderstood him, he seemed to imply, when talking about public inquiries, that it would depend upon the number of objections whether or not a public inquiry was thought necessary. I wonder if that is really so, or whether, as I should have thought, the procedure would be the same as with an opposed Private Bill, when even one objector is sufficient to cause the Bill to be thoroughly examined before a competent body. Surely when notices are sent out by the promoters they should be sent to any individuals who might be affected and not only to local planning authorities.
One or two points in the Bill caught my eye. I notice that on the question of safety there are provisions for the maintenance and repair of the pipe-lines and for the mode of their construction. But I see nothing in the Bill giving the Minister power to impose safety regulations on the operations of the pipe-lines.
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There is nothing, for example, whereby he can impose a limit on the pressure at which the apparatus is to work: and, after all, pounds per square inch is a vital element in safety.
Another point arises in the Fourth Schedule. The first paragraph gives a right "to erect or lay electric cables in the land" along which a pipe-line is being laid, for the purposes of signalling and controlling the pipe-line system. Does that entail a right to erect electric cables above ground? Surely, if the authorisation is to lay a pipe-line underground, the ancillary right to run an electric cable should also involve burying it without having anything above ground.
To my mind, however, the more serious objection can be taken to the Bill on general grounds. With great respect, it seems to me that the Government have not grasped what this is all about. This is the beginning of a revolution in the means of transport. They tell us that they wish to promote an orderly growth of a long-distance network. But, as the noble Lord, Lord Amherst of Hackney, asked, what information have the Government got that will tell them what sort of network is wanted? Who is collecting the information on which the Government can base their ideas of where pipe-lines are needed? Who knows what the demand for fuel is going to be in every one of dozens of industrial areas in this country? It seems to me that this Bill ought to recognise the fact that no planning can take place without intelligence, without information; and there should be means at the Minister's hand for him to collect this information.
In introducing the Bill, the noble Lord, Lord Mills, said that the Government wish to allow private enterprise maximum scope, and that private individuals who wish to promote a pipe-line should have the freedom to acquire means to meet the needs of their business. This conveys the idea of a private concern obtaining authority to put in a piece of equipment for its own business. There has been pretty general agreement among the noble Lords who have spoken this afternoon that this is a means of transport and, as such, an addition to the capital equipment of the country in the transport field. The mere fact that the duties of operating the

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system are not given to the Minister of Transport seems to me to betray a misunderstanding of the whole thing.
The Government must be aware of the developments on the Continent of Europe and elsewhere in the world. They must know of the pipe-line that has been in operation for nearly ten years between Havre and Paris, 150 miles long, conveying 1½ to 2 million tons of crude oil and petroleum products, as I think they are called, from the refineries to distribution points. There are pipe-lines in operation from Wilhelmshaven and Rotterdam to Cologne, and there are pipe-lines under construction from Marseilles to Strasbourg and the Rhine, from Genoa into Switzerland, and from Venice into South Germany and to Vienna. These are large-scale developments in transport which are having enormous effects on the existing means of transport. On the Rhine, for example, some of the shipping traffic is being taken away, while in turn other traffic is accruing to the Rhine shipping. But the pipe-line is completely revolutionising the pattern of transport in the whole of Northern and Western Europe. This is not to mention what is going on behind the Iron Curtain, where a pipeline is being built to take oil from the Volga to the Eastern European countries and has already reached Bratislava.
In this country, the Government wish to see an orderly development of pipelines by allowing the maximum scope to private enterprise. I fail to see how the two are in any way compatible. As my noble friend Lord Morrison of Lambeth said, what private firm is going to invest huge capital sums in anything except what will bring in a profit? No matter what development the Government would like to see, say, in industrial areas, stimulating industry in one area or in several areas, under this Bill the Minister has no power to exercise any positive influence. The Government can exercise negative influence in the way of preventing duplication and overlapping and unnecessary investment, and that is all to the good. But there is a lack of recognition in regard to industrial planning. We have heard that the Conservative Government have become deathbed converts to industrial planning and economic planning, and
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yet they have thrown away the opportunity they had in this Bill and forsworn the power to influence positively industrial development. In the field of ownership and control, my noble friend Lord Morrison of Lambeth explained that we believe that, in a public utility of such far-reaching importance and influence, it is essential that the Government should have overriding powers.
My noble friend mentioned two or three alternative methods of exercising Government control, but one he did not mention is that adopted by the French in the Le Havre-Paris pipe-line. There ten or twelve years ago they set up a company, the shareholders being the French State and organisations under the control of the State and private petroleum companies. There you have; what might be called a consortium of owners. I believe that the French State have a 51 per cent. holding, in partnership with private enterprise. I offer that to the Minister as another thought. I must tell the noble Lord that, apart from the detailed matters, we consider the lack of recognition of public ownership in this new transport is something to be criticised most strongly, and we will try to alter it in Committee
5.23 p.m.
LORD MILLS: My Lords, I think we have had a useful debate on the Second 'Reading of this Bill, and I have benefited greatly from what noble Lords have had to say. In replying to the individual matters put forward, I do so with a very open mind. There will be time between now and the Committee stage to consider the many important matters raised, and I can assure noble Lords that they will be considered.
The noble Lord, Lord Morrison of Lambeth, who explained that he could not be present when I replied, raised two important questions, among others. He first of all questioned whether the Minister responsible should not be the Minister of Transport, and wondered why the Minister of Power had been selected. (The answer is that the Minister of Power is concerned with the major industries that are presently making use of pipelines—for example, the oil industry; and he is also responsible for the coal, gas and electricity industries, in which many of the problems are similar. But we should certainly be prepared to consider

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the argument he put forward: there is a good deal of force in the suggestion that the responsible Minister might well be (and may eventually be) the Minister of Transport. But I am sure we should all like first to be better acquainted with this new method of transporting materials—and, after all, in this country it is a comparatively new method. A change in Ministerial responsibility, if we desired to make one, would not be difficult: it can always be made by means of an Order in Council under the Ministers of the Crown (Transfer of‡Functions) Act, 1946. The matter will continue under examination, and I have in mind what the noble Lord, Lord Morrison of Lambeth, and other noble Lords have had to say on the subject.
The noble Lord questioned the fundamental policy of the Bill, as other noble Lords have also done, and in effect suggested that the Government should enter the field as a monopoly developer and operator of pipe-lines for commercial use.
THE EARL OF LUCAN: Not necessarily a monopoly.
LORD MILLS: I note the noble Earl's interjection. Such a solution at this stage—I think it is far too early—would commit the Government to the prospect of a continued and sizeable capital expenditure, virtually for the benefit of private concerns. Such a conception would seem to be quite out of proportion to the dimensions of the problem, at any rate in the foreseeable future. As my right honourable friend, the Minister of Power, said in another place during the discussion of the Trunk Pipelines Bill, it seems sensible that we should leave largely to the initiative of private enterprise the development of the pipe-line system, provided that there is public control on a recognised plan and pattern. My answer to the noble Lord, Lord Morrison of Lambeth, is that in the view of the Government it is far better to let industry develop the pipelines they require, while at the same time exercising the kind of Government control and supervision which is contained in this Bill.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLS BOROUGH: My Lords, does that include Government initiation in dealing with such an extraordinarily wide
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development as is likely to take place in this new form of transportation? Where will the initiation come from—just from odd private groups likely to compete against each other? If we are to get our economy on a sound basis, will it not require more initiation by the Government than we have had over these last ten years?
LORD MILLS: My Lords, the reply to that is that a Minister is being appointed under this Bill to look after this development of pipe-lines. He has to control the development, and he has to look after the national interest and see what is necessary in the national interest. Nothing is excluded, but the Government see no sense at this point in spending millions of pounds of public money in promoting what are for the moment the interests of private industry.
LORD WOLVERTON: My Lords, may I ask my noble friend whether it will be under the Minister of Power, or will he be a separate Minister altogether?
LORD MILLS: The Minister is the Minister of Power, as provided in the Bill.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLS BOROUGH: My Lords, I am sure the noble Lord, Lord Mills, will not mind my pressing him on this point. I was impressed by his analysis of the economic situation before Christmas, when one of his two main points was the extent to which this country had got into its difficulties about balance of payments and financial restriction because we had used far too much of our home resources for the purposes of the home market. It seems to me that the great thing about developing this new form of transportation will be in connection with the costs of industry, especially in relation to export in a competitive market. I should have thought that it would be to the country's benefit that we should have some Government initiation in this matter.
LORD MILLS: Some Government initiation comes from knowledge; some should not be lightly embarked upon. We should not say, "It is a grand thing to do; let us build pipe-lines everywhere", without knowing what is needed or what is necessary for industry. The kind of control envisaged in the Bill will enable the Minister responsible,

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his Department and the other public Departments concerned to get knowledge of this subject—the knowledge which is necessary before you go in for initiation on a grand scale.
The noble Lord said that, under this Bill, the Minister was usurping the functioning of the planning authority, simply because there is deemed to be planning permission once the line has been settled. But that is not so. Notice has to be given to every planning authority; and every planning authority has a right to object; and every objection must be heard at a public hearing. The noble Lord also referred to the British Transport Commission and their rights under the Transport Bill. That point has been foreseen. One noble Lord said that following the line of the railways and the waterways was a good method of avoiding disturbance, and could be of benefit to the British Transport Commission. But the Bill provides that, where the British Transport Commission, either alone or in conjunction with someone else, wish to put down a pipe-line, if it is for their own use then they are at liberty to do so; but if it is not for their own use and if it is the case merely that a pipe-line is going to be laid along their land, then they have to get the authority of the Minister in the same way as anybody else does.
The noble Lord, Lord Morrison of Lambeth, mentioned the question of a national emergency and asked: would the covering of the pipe be sufficient against an attack? I am afraid I cannot answer a general question of that kind. One of the responsibilities of the Minister is to take care that the national interest is protected. That does not mean to say that he must insist that pipelines have to be laid at such a depth that whatever attack came about they would be immune. The noble Lord complained that there was nothing in the Bill to allow the Government to take over any pipe-line system—
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLS BOROUGH: My Lords, may I ask a question about the point the Minister has just left? I am sorry to interrupt him again. The question of defence in such matters as this is very important. It is true that in general circumstances of wit- an Emergency Powers Act is passed and carried into effect. A large part of
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the old Emergency Powers Act has been demoted section by section as Parliament has decided. But when it comes to deal with a problem like this, you ought to have a look ahead for what kind of conditions there may be. Where will your authority be for dealing with these things? Are you going to leave it alone until a war, which none of us wants, conies about, and then find you have to do it all over again?
LORD MILLS: I think the noble Viscount has misunderstood me. I said it is for the Minister to look after the national interest—and surely this is a point of national interest. But I should not like to convey the impression that it is possible, or desirable, in all cases to put pipe-lines at such a depth that they would be immune from any kind of attack. We have all, unfortunately, had experience of what can be done, even in the kind of war we went through in 1940, and the damage which was clone to water mains, pipe-lines and that kind of thing. Obviously, it is a matter which the Minister will have in mind.
I should like to say at this point that, when one is considering the question of pipe-lines and the laying of pipe-lines in this country, we cannot generalise about them, because they may convey very different materials. Each case has to be looked at on its own merits. That is why the Bill is framed in this way, so that the Minister has to examine an application and either give permission or refuse it.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLS BOROUGH: Rather like a patchwork.
LORD MILLS: No, it is not patchwork, with all respect. The noble Lord, Lord Amulree, who I am glad to see is here, referred to the danger to water supplies. That has been prominently in mind right through the drafting of this Bill. Water undertakers are protected by being on the list of those who must be informed when a leak occurs. They are also on the list of those who will be advised of the proposal to lay a pipe-line. Clause 24, for example, empowers the Minister to see that abandoned pipe-lines are rendered safe, so that they may not be a source of danger to water supplies. Under Clause 20 the Minister has power to order that pipe-lines should be constructed in a particular way or of particular materials, depending upon what

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the pipe-line is going to carry, in order to protect the interests of water undertakers and others. Under Clause 23 requirements can also be imposed regarding both the operation and the maintenance of the pipe-lines. So I can assure the noble Lord that the point which he made so effectively in regard to the danger to water supplies has not in any way been overlooked.
Lord Balfour of Inchrye in a very interesting speech, which was full of matter for consideration, rather questioned whether the powers were adequate to protect those who might have land affected either by compulsory purchase or compulsory rights. I would draw attention to the fact that before an application comes to the Minister it will be necessary that all people, either land-lords or tenants, who will be affected shall already have been approached. Where there is any objection there will be a public inquiry in practically all cases. It is true that the Minister has the power to have a less formal inquiry on the spot. That was found necessary in the case of the Electricity Acts, because there are sometimes quite trivial objections, and it would not be appropriate or wise to order a public inquiry when the only objections are obviously trivial ones. But where the planning authority or the man concerned with the land raises an objection, a public inquiry can be asked for and is provided for in this Bill. It is true, as the noble Lord said, that there is always a question of negotiating under duress, the duress being of course the compulsory power; but the occupier of the land can always refuse wayleave and have a public inquiry. He has too the protection of the Special Parliamentary procedure.
Several noble Lords commented on the Special procedure, but that was gone into very carefully, and has been debated in your Lordships' House. As your Lordships know, the Government recently completed a careful inquiry into the work of Special Parliamentary procedure and on August 1 last year a statement was made by my noble and learned friend the Lord President of the Council and Minister for Science announcing the reseult of the inquiry. As he then pointed out, the great majority of orders to which Special Parliamentary procedure applies are orders the purpose of which is the
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application to local circumstances of a general policy formulated within a framework laid down by Parliament. Compulsory purchase orders and compulsory rights orders under Clauses 9 and 10 of this Bill are obviously in this class. The Statutory Order (Special Procedure) Act, 1945, was passed with this type of order in view. In order to provide a procedure speedier and cheaper for promoters and opponents of orders within the Provisional Order Procedure and which would at the same time enable general issues to be considered in the appropriate place, on the Floor of the House, the 1945 Act, providing as it does for local inquiry by the Minister and the hearing of objections before an order is made for submission to Parliament, is, I submit, particularly appropriate to the kind of orders which will be made under this Bill.
LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE: My Lords, could I just ask the noble Lord whether he would be so good as to answer one question? I do not want to argue the matter at all, but he was good enough to say that he would look at the points which have been made in respect of a short pipe-line up to ten miles in length. Does this procedure apply only if the Minister so consents? Am I not right in saying that a citizen has no prescriptive right unless the Minister so consents in regard to that short pipe-line?
LORD MILLS: In respect of a short pipe-line, the procedure applies if there is an objection and, as a result, there has to be a compulsory purchase or right.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLS BOROUGH: My Lords, I really should like to understand this point, because it seems to me that earlier the Minister was saying that we did not want to be tied down by a procedure which would necessarily entail a public inquiry if the reasons given against the scheme were only trivial. I think those were the sort of words used. It passed through my mind as I was listening then. I do not know what the noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Inchrye, has in his mind, but in many of our Statutes we provide for a public inquiry because of the necessity to preserve a citizens rights. For example, a year or so ago, at the request

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of a workman, I went to represent him —he is a local friend—in a public inquiry because the planning authority refused him the right to have a garage built alongside his semi-detached rural cottage, and that would affect the question whether or not he had the right to enter the main road. There was nobody at the public inquiry but the parties concerned. But he got justice, whichever way the verdict went; and preserving the citizen's right is what I am after.
LORD MILLS: I can assure the House that under this Bill the citizen's rights are very fully preserved. There is provision for public inquiry if somebody objects. Very often it is possible to combine both the public inquiry for the plan of the route and the public inquiry for the objectors, too. I was merely referring to the fact that, if the Minister gets a frivolous objection (which Ministers do get at times), it is sometimes easier, better and wiser for the Minister to send his inspector there and dispose of that frivolous objection. These things do happen. It is well known under the Electricity procedures, of which I have personal knowledge. But there is no thought of denying the citizen any right which he should have. This Special Parliamentary procedure protects a man against whom a compulsory order is made in a better way than does either the Private Bill procedure or the Provisional Order procedure, which is now largely abandoned. But, as I told my noble friend Lord Balfour of Inchrye, I will very gladly consider with my right honourable friend the Minister what he has had to say on the subject, which was of great interest and was fair comment. I will also consider what he had to say about arbitration, but I think I shall find that, so far as compensation is concerned, there is an established procedure in all acquisition of land. That needs to be settled in many other kinds of case besides these.
The noble Lord, Lord Merrivale, asked that we should have regard to the needs of other users by specifying size and pressure, and so on. All that is provided for in the Bill. He also drew our attention to the china clay industry. Representations have been received from that industry and from other industries, and they are at present in the
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process of being very carefully examined.
LORD MERRIVALE: May I interrupt my noble friend? What I thought I said was that I should like the Minister to give careful consideration, when considering an application and the diameter of a pipe, to what would be the possible future use, or the possible forecast of use, for some specific pipe-line. That is what I meant to say.
LORD MILLS: That I well understand. I look upon that as part of the duties of my right honourable friend in examining whether he should give the authorisation in the form asked or in some other form which he considers necessary in the general interest.
The noble Lord referred to Clause 8 and said it was preferable to obtain agreement amongst the various users. If they are there at the same time, that is obviously the right way to do it; but sometimes the Minister will have to take into account what may be coming along and not what is there. The noble Lord felt that the penalty prescribed in Clause 8 was insufficient and that it ought to be increased. I cannot give him a reply on that point now, but it will have attention. Then he thought that, in regard to local pipe-lines, sixteen weeks for notification under Clause 2 might be too long. If he reads that clause again, he will find that there is power for the Minister to specify such shorter period as he may think necessary in a particular case.
LORD MERRIVALE: I am sorry to interrupt the noble Lord again, but if he is leaving the question of local pipelines may I explain that what I asked was that consideration should be given to excluding very short pipe lengths—for instance, half a mile—from the provisions of this Bill. In other words, in such cases notification to the Minister should not be required. Such a pipeline may be purely for the conveyance, for instance, of brine from the brine-fields to the salt extraction plant; or it may be purely a link between one factory and another a very short distance away.
LORD MILLS: I think there should be notification to the Minister, but the Minister would not do anything. The planning authority would have to be

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consulted as soon as the pipe goes outside the land of the person laying it, and very often when it is inside his own land.
The noble Lord asked that there should be some sort of reference in the Bill to The Minister's having to consult with the Minister of Housing and Local Government and with the President of the Board of Trade, because of their interests. It is never possible to put in a Bill provision for consultation between Ministers. It is the Government collectively who are responsible, and they have to see to it that any necessary consultations take place. In fact, at this very moment consultation is going on between the Ministry of Power and the Board of Trade about china clay, which was a point raised by the noble Lord. That sort of consultation is the ordinary business of government and it is not appropriate to require it in a Bill.
The noble Lord also referred to the question of safety provisions. There is power in the Bill for the Minister to issue safety regulations. Here again, of course, one has to keep in mind that what those regulations should be depends very much upon the type of pipeline and what it is carrying, and that is why it is not possible to issue a standard code. I am glad that the noble Lord, Lord Lindgren, rose in his place, although he wanted only to endorse what the noble Lord, Lord Morrison of Lambeth, had already said. But it gave him a chance to point out the help which pipe-lines could be to the railways and waterways, and he warned us against lining the pockets of lawyers.
The noble Lord, Lord Conesford, I was glad to note, agreed that it was right to deal with this matter by public legislation. But he also took the line that the protection for those who are to have their lands purchased, or against whom rights will be applied, is less than under the Private Bill procedure. I should like to talk to the noble Lord about that, because I should like to make it clear, on behalf of my right honourable friend and the Government, that we do want this problem to be fully ventilated so that one can be satisfied that everything that can be done is being done.
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The noble Lord tabled a number of omissions from the Bill. The first one seems to me to have much to commend it, because it was also mentioned by the noble Earl, Lord Lucan; that is, a clause to ensure that operators and people seeking to put down pipe-lines should do as little damage as possible to land and amenities. I think that that is well worth our looking into. He also referred to property compulsorily acquired under Clause 9, to the damage by explosion, dealt with in Clause 11 (2), and to whether a pipe-line owner or operator should be obliged compulsorily to insure against such risk. All those matters I will look into.
My noble friend Lord Amherst of Hackney said that this Bill gave great powers to the Minister. But he was not quite sure that it spelt out the Minister's duties and the necessary safeguards; he felt that among his duties the Minister should be satisfied that a pipe-line is in the public interest. He added that there was at present no obligation on the Minister to find out what future needs might be. But the whole object of bringing this under the Minister is that these matters will be continuously examined.
The noble Lord also detailed certain safeguards. He talked about Special Parliamentary procedure. He said that the Esso Company had given certain undertakings to the National Farmers' Union and the Country Landowners' Association with a minimum code of behaviour, as he described it. Again I have tried to point out to your Lordships that so much depends upon the nature of the pipe-line and of the materials that it is intended to carry that it would be impossible to lay down a minimum code of behaviour. Regulations in each individual case are more appropriate. He then asked me whether there was any compensation for the right to enter the land and lay pipes. That is provided for in the Bill; I will let the noble Lord know the particular clause. But as pipe-lines may go on for many years—they might go on for ever—it is probable that that would be met by a lump sum payment and not by an annual rent.
I followed with great interest the noble Lord, Lord Chorley, because he was so downright in what he had to

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say. He said there was nothing properly thought out, and that Lord Morrison of Lambeth had said that the Government had not given thought as to who should be the Minister in charge. I did not understand the noble Lord, Lord Morrison of Lambeth, to say anything of the sort. He said that in his view it ought to be the Minister of Transport.
LORD CHORLEY: My Lords, the noble Lord must have misunderstood me. What I said was that the Government did not give sufficient thought to this matter, and I agree with my noble friend Lord Morrison of Lambeth that the Minister of Transport would be the most appropriate Minister.
LORD MILLS: My Lords, perhaps the noble Lord will read his Hansard tomorrow to see what he did say. He was forthright and downright in his criticism in regard to lack of thought on the part of the Government. He did, however, suggest—I thank him for it—that we should look at Section 37 of the Electricity Act, 1957, dealing with amenities. The noble Earl, Lord Lucan, also stressed the question of amenities. I think that is necessary. He suggested that a public inquiry should be held if there was but one objection. I would agree with him on that point provided the objection is a valid one. He referred to the question of safety and maintenance and repair, and thought that there ought to be regulations as to pressure. He will find that the power is there to make regulations as to pressure and the form of maintenance and repair.
He asked me if in connection with electrical works it was understood that the cable also would be underground. I cannot answer that question now, but I will let the noble Earl know. He asked as to who is getting together the information which is necessary to plan and develop properly any system of pipe-line. That, of course, is the job of the Minister who is entrusted with the carrying
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out of this Bill. I would not at all quarrel with his statement that this adds to the capital equipment of the country. Of course it does, whether it is in public or private hands. He also made a reference to foreign pipe-lines. I am most grateful for the suggestions that have been put forward in our discussion on this Bill, and I will see that they get the attention they deserve.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

KENT QUARTER SESSIONS BILL [H.L.]
Reported, with Amendments.
ROYAL RUSSELL SCHOOL BILL [H.L.]
Reported, with an Amendment.
  SCOTTISH SALMON AND TROUT FISHERIES
  SCOTTISH SALMON AND TROUT FISHERIES