Sitting of 8 March 1962

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
PRIVATE BUSINESS
  AUSTRALIAN AGRICULTURAL COMPANY BILL

    SAINT PAUL, COVENT GARDEN BILL
    WHITEHAVEN HARBOUR BILL
    Read the Third time and passed.

    SELECTION
    Adjourned debate on Question [7th March], That Mr. Edward Short be added to the Committee of Selection, further adjourned till Monday next.
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD

    Land
    Mr. Wingfield Digbyasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food how many acres of land are now in the Charge of his Department; and what are his plans for a further reduction of this acreage.
    The Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Mr. Christopher Soames): Of 154,000 acres in my charge, 74,000 acres are being sold. Thirty-one thousand acres are held by my Department for research, experiments and other Departmental purposes. This leaves 49,000 acres which will be sold or transferred to the Forestry Commission as opportunity offers.
    Mr. Digby: I congratulate my right hon. Friend on the progress that has been made in the last two years, but may I ask whether he will continue to get rid of land that is surplus to his requirements and that of the Forestry Commission?
    Mr. Soames: Yes, Sir. It is our intention to proceed with this as is right and proper in the appropriate circumstances.
    Mr. Peart: Will the right hon. Gentleman resist any doctrinaire approach from his back benchers—an approach which could do harm to land like Forestry Commission land which is held for good public reasons?
    Mr. Soames: There is nothing doctrinaire about the approach to this. It is merely that we wish to return those areas of land which Departments have no good reason for holding. I do not see anything doctrinaire in that.
    Mr. Gibson-Watt: As good agricultural land is continually lost, much of it to essential development, will my right hon. Friend keep a careful eye on that and which is held by other Ministries and try to persuade his right hon. Friends in those Ministries to keep their requirements down to a minimum?
    Mr. Soames: My right hon. Friends are well aware of this problem.
    Mr. Peart: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that I was not accusing him of being doctrinaire, but some of his hon. Friends who support him from time to time?
    Mr. Soames: I have had no evidence of that.

    Grey Squirrels
    Mr. Wingfield Digbyasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what steps he is taking to check the continuing increase in the number of grey squirrels since the bonus scheme for tails ended; and what conclusion was reached by the Forestry Commission as a result of this assignment of an additional officer to study this problem in 1959.
    The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Mr. W. M. F. Vane): I have nothing to add to the full Answer given to my hon. Friend the Member for

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    Leominster (Mr. Clive Bossom) on 8th December, 1961. The conclusions in that Answer were based on the studies of the officer employed by the Forestry Commission on grey squirrel research.
    Mr. Digby: Is my hon. Frend aware that this is becoming a major problem in hardwood plantations? It is all very fine for the Forestry Commission, which is planting almost entirely soft woods, but this is becoming such a severe problem that it is almost getting to the stage of owners having to plant hardwoods for these grey squirrels to eat.
    Mr. Vane: I understand the severity of the problem in certain areas, and it is for this reason that the Timber Growers' Organisation and the Forestry Commission are making a special effort this year.

    Meat Inspection
    Mrs. Slaterasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he is satisfied that the salaries and conditions are sufficient to attract enough meat and food inspectors to deal adequately with meat inspection; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Vane: My right hon. Friend has no responsibility for the salaries and conditions of officers employed by local authorities on meat inspection. As to the rest of the Question, I would refer the hon. Member to the reply which I gave to the hon. Member for Sheffield, Hillsborough (Mr. Darling) on 5th February.
    Mrs. Slater: The hon. Gentleman says that his right hon. Friend has no responsibility for the salaries of meat inspectors, but has not he a responsibility to make representations to the Treasury that they should get a much better salary than they do at present because of the 28 per cent. shortage of inspectors in large cities and the need, in the interests of health, for there to be adequate inspection of meat?
    Mr. Vane: We are in touch with my right hon. and learned Friend's Department. The result of the recent recruitment together with the steady reduction in the number of slaughterhouses is having an effect.
    Mr. Darling: Can the Minister give us more information—not now, perhaps, but at some time—about this reduction in the number of slaughterhouses? We have the impression that more slaughterhouses are being opened. Will he bear in mind that it is five years since we had a categorical promise that there would be quick developments towards a 100 per cent. meat inspection?
    Mr. Vane: There is definitely a downward trend in the number of slaughterhouses. I will send the hon. Member details.

    Quarantine Restrictions (Dogs)
    Mr. J. Rodgersasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what are his regulations in regard to the applicability of quarantine restrictions for dogs entering the United Kingdom from Eire.
    Mr. Vane: No quarantine restrictions are imposed on dogs entering Great Britain from the Irish Republic, where quarantine arrangements identical with ours are maintained.
    Mr. RodgersIs my hon. Friend satisfied that the Eire officials are strictly enforcing the quarantine regulations? Is he aware that dogs have been known to enter Eire from various parts of the world without being subject to quarantine restrictions, and have then come into the United Kingdom?
    Mr. Vane: My hon. Friend may have information about a certain case which I certainly have not. I understand that the Government of the Irish Republic are as anxious as we are to maintain a clean record, because of the serious risks to man, as well as to dogs, which rabies presents.

    Meat
    Mr. P. Browneasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if, in the interests of the taxpayer, the consumer and the producer, he will set up a meat working party.
    Mr. Soames: No, Sir. I have considered the possibility of arranging to give guidance to consumers about retail meat prices, but have concluded that the difficulties are overwhelming. Retail

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    prices vary very widely from district to district and from shop to shop. I have discussed with the National Federation of Meat Traders' Associations how to keep consumers better informed. During recent months they have instituted a weekly news service in which they issue to the Press statements indicating the best buys in the butchers' shops each week in different parts of the country.
    Mr. Browne: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for the steps that he has already taken. Does not he agree, however, that consumer resistance plays a very important part in helping to prevent the sort of muddle we had during last year over meat prices? Will he put this point to the new committee on meat marketing which he is setting up?
    Mr. Soames: The differential between wholesale and retail prices will certainly be one of the factors which the new committee will be considering. I know what is going through my hon. Friend's mind. I sympathise with his aim, but as the price of meat varies so much throughout the country it would not be possible to stipulate an overall price.

    Horticulture Improvement Scheme (Fork-Lift Trucks)
    Mr. Hastingsasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether he will now consider making fork-lift trucks eligible for grants under the Horticulture Improvement Scheme.
    Mr. Vane: This suggestion, together with a number of others, is being considered by the Ministry for possible inclusion in the Horticulture Improvement Scheme.
    Mr. Hastings: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that news, as I am sure the whole industry will be, but may I ask my hon. Friend whether he would agree that this equipment plays a vital part in the work of packing stations, and that the prosperity of the industry depends upon the efficiency of pre-packing and marketing? I hope, therefore, that there will be a favourable decision in the matter. Secondly, if and when we reach agreement upon entry into the E.E.C., does my hon. Friend agree that there will be a need to review the whole grant scheme, with a view to ensuring that our growers are in a
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    position to compete on equal terms, especially with our Dutch competitors?
    Mr. Vane: Certainly, we will take all that into account.

    Groundnut Meal
    Sir B. Jannerasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what action he proposes to take about the reports which he has received from his Veterinary Laboratory during recent months, describing the poisonous properties of certain batches of groundnut meal fed to farm animals; and what steps he is taking to ensure that such contaminated batches of groundnut meal are not being used in foodstuffs for consumption in this country in the form of margarine, peanut butter or coconut oils.
    Mr. Soames: It would be difficult to answer briefly all the matters raised in the hon. Member's Question. I will therefore, with permission, circulate a detailed reply in the OFFICIAL REPORT. I can, however, assure the hon. Member that groundnut meal is not used in the manufacture of the products mentioned in the second part of the Question. It is refined groundnut oil which is used in making margarine and cooking oils and I am advised that the toxin is not present in it. With regard to peanut butter, I would refer the hon. Member to the reply which my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary for Science gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Sir W. Teeling) on 27th February.
    Sir B. Janner: In view of the serious nature of the article which appeared in the British Medical Journal a short time ago, can the right hon. Gentleman assure us that every possible step is being taken in order to avoid the possibility of toxic effects from the use of these materials?
    Mr. Soames: Yes, Sir. Considerable research has been carried out on this question, and it is continuing at present. An inter-departmental working party has been set up by the D.S.I.R., the Medical Research Council, the Agricultural Research Council, the Department for Technical Co-operation and my Department, to keep under review all the current research relevant to this toxicity.
    Following is the information:
    The work on toxicity in certain batches of groundnut meal which has been done by the Ministry's veterinary staff at Weybridge, in collaboration with the Tropical Products Institute of the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research, has been described in a series of articles in the Veterinary Record starting last April.
    A great deal has been done by the Ministry's Veterinary Service, with the co-operation of the feedingstuffs trade, to reduce losses in livestock. Turkeys and ducklings are notably more susceptible than other species, but the incidence of the reported attacks among poultry has fallen from 410 cases in the first twelve months from the spring of 1960 to 69 cases in the nine months up to 31st December. Some of the younger farm animals are also susceptible, but during the twenty-one months for which records have been kept there have only been about 90 incidents.
    The toxic factor is not inherent in the groundnut itself and it has been shown that it is produced by a strain of the mould Aspergillus flavus. The conditions under which this develops are being studied in producing areas, with a view to recommending methods of cultivation, handling and storage which will avoid contamination. Research has produced a method of detecting the toxic factor, and sampling and testing are being carried out to ascertain the incidence of the toxin in imports.
    There has been the fullest co-operation in the necessary research and investigatory work among the Ministry's research staff at Weybridge, the Tropical Products Institute of the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research, the Medical Research Council, the Agricultural Research Council and the laboratories of the commercial firms concerned.

    Fowl Pest
    Mr. Ridsdaleasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will give detailed reasons for the increase in the Supplementary Estimate by almost 100 per cent. of the original estimate for compensation for fowl pest; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Soames: The subhead referred to by my hon. Friend covers compensation payments to farmers for animals and birds slaughtered on account of all diseases and also covers related expenses, such as those for disinfection. The original Estimate was about £3·2 million, and this included £1 million for fowl pest compensation. The Supplementary Estimate increased the provision to about £6·2 million, of which fowl pest compensation accounted for £4·5 million. The increase in the provision for fowl pest compensation was necessary because of the continued heavy
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    incidence of fowl pest during most of the financial year.
    Mr. Ridsdale: Is my right hon. Friend aware that a very authoritative source in his Department said, as recently as 1961, that £1,250,000 was normal and tolerable for such compensation? Can he confirm that in January payment of compensation for fowl pest reached almost £750,000?
    Mr. Soames: In 1958–59 the total expenditure on fowl pest compensation was £1 million. It is very difficult to estimate ahead what compensation for a disease of this nature is likely to amount to during the year. Hitherto we have followed the practice of putting in what I might call a floor estimate—a figure below which we have thought it unlikely to go. As a result of a recommendation of the Estimates Committee we have now tried to make what I might call more realistic assumptions, and we are putting in for a higher figure this year.
    Mr. Peart: In view of the fact that these figures show the seriousness of this disease, is the right hon. Gentleman satisfied that enough research has been done on the question of eradication?
    Mr. Soames: The question of fowl pest has been given great attention by the Plant Committee, whose report will be published during the course of this month.
    Sir G. Nicholson: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the Plant Committee is taking a long time over its investigations? Is it not possible to expedite its investigations? While it has been cogitating millions of pounds have been spent. Secondly, is my right hon. Friend aware that many scientists believe that the present form of fowl pest is less virulent that the old form, and can be effectively dealt with by inoculation? In view of those two facts, is it not clear that a lot of money may have been wasted by the slow progress of this and many other scientific committees which are constantly being set up by Government Departments?
    Mr. Soames: It is difficult to estimate what time, in a perfect world, a committee ought to take to report on any particular subject. This is a very complex matter. I am sure that my hon. Friend will appreciate that the Plant

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    Committee was anxious to give as authoritative, effective and useful advice as it could to Her Majesty's Government. This it has done, and it has taken the time it thought right to do so.

    Eggs
    Mr. Bullardasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what was the average price per dozen for eggs of standard grade received by producers in the month of January, 1962; and how the figure compares with that for January, 1961.
    Mr. Soames: The minimum price to producers declared by the British Egg Marketing Board for eggs of standard grade averaged 2s. 10·8d. in January, 1962, and 3s. 4·1d. in January, 1961.
    Mr. Bullard: As the February figures must have become available since this Question was first put down, would my right hon. Friend care to give me them? In any case, will he continue to work closely with his right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade on the question of importation from Poland? Despite the favourable answer given by the Minister of State, Board of Trade in a Written Answer on Monday, a great deal of misgiving still exists about the possibility of this importation affecting the British egg price.
    Mr. Soames: My hon. Friend asked specifically for the January figures in his Question, and there is a later Question on the Order Paper asking for the figures for the first quarter of the year, or the first two months, which will cover my hon. Friend's point. As to the levels of imports, it is most important that we should keep the matter in proportion. The figures for January, 1962, show that 2,032,000 boxes of home-produced eggs went through the packing stations, compared with 1,879,000 in January, 1961. This is an increase of about 8 per cent. in home-produced eggs going through the packing stations. During the same period total imports amounted to about 72,000 boxes, compared with about 125,000 boxes last January.
    Mr. Lipton: Is the Minister aware that the position is even worse than has been stated, because the current packing station price for standard eggs is now half-a-crown a dozen? Will he
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    explain how an egg producer with, say, an overhead charge of 37s per cwt. for pellets, can possibly produce eggs at the present price without subsidising production out of his own pocket?
    Mr. Soames: There is a later Question which takes us up to the present prices.
    Sir A. Hurdasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will make a statement on current egg supplies and the measures being taken to prevent a repetition of the market collapse which occurred last spring.
    Mr. Soames: During the first nine weeks of this year ending on 3rd March, packing stations in the United Kingdom handled 3,867,000 boxes of eggs, accounting probably for about two-thirds of home production. This figure is 11 per cent. higher than that for the corresponding period of 1961. According to trade sources, imports to 3rd March were 133,000 boxes, which is slightly less than half the total during the corresponding period last year.
    Although prices fell at the end of February this year the average price for the month was little lower than usual. There was a fall at this time last year too, but it was by no means a collapse. Prices compared favourably with previous years. Some fall in prices in the spring is to be expected.
    Sir A. Hurd: Will my right hon. Friend recall that the real trouble last year came in March and April and at that time the British Egg Marketing Board was in funds, which enabled it to cushion the home producer to quite a useful extent, whereas this year I am afraid that its funds are not so good? Will he keep that in mind as home production will increase in the next few weeks and we cannot afford to take seasonal surpluses from other countries at this time?
    Mr. Soames: As my hon. Friend knows, representations have been made to the President of the Board of Trade on this matter by the Egg Marketing Board and he has already told the House that he is considering these facts.
    Mr. Lipton: Will the right hon. Gentleman now explain how it is possible for a British egg producer to sell

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    eggs at half-a-crown a dozen to the packing station and make any profit on the transaction in view of the very heavy overheads he has to bear at the moment?
    Mr. Soames: The rate of increase of home production of eggs does not lead one to believe that it is an unprofitable venture for the efficient producers who produce in large numbers.
    Mr. Speaker: Dr. Stross.
    Sir D. Robertson: Will my right hon. Friend in future—
    Mr. Speaker: I am sorry, but I called another hon. Member. I did not in fact see the hon. Member for Caithness and Sutherland (Sir D. Robertson) rise.

    Sugar Beet
    Mr. Bullardasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food how many cases are known to him where the contract acreage of suger beet allocated to a farm exceeds one quarter of the arable acreage of the farm.
    Mr. Vane: The British Sugar Corporation has agreed to supply as much of this information as it can but it will take some time as there are over 30,000 sugar beet growers. I will write to my hon. Friend as soon as possible.
    Mr. Ballard: I appreciate the difficulty of obtaining this information fully in a short time. Will my hon. Friend keep in mind that this is a guaranteed price crop and that it is bad husbandry to grow sugar beet more than once in four years on any land? Will he try to ensure that the British Sugar Corporation does not issue contracts where a high proportion of sugar beet is grown on farms, and thus make the contract acreage available? Is he aware that there are many small growers in my district and elsewhere who would like to participate in one of those contracts?
    Mr. Vane: As my hon. Friend knows, the Minister does not allocate contracts. The British Sugar Corporation makes its contracts with farmers within certain totals. The hon. Gentleman also knows that for many small farmers the most economic way of growing sugar beet is for them to plant a large part of their acreage in one year and then plant other crops for the requisite number of years until the growing of sugar beet
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    is again permissible in order to avoid eel worm infestation; so that it is a different rotation on a small farm.

    Dairy Industry (Profitability)
    Mr. Morrisasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will make a statement on the profitability of the dairying industry.
    Mr. Soames: Some indication of the profitability of dairy farming is given by the National Investigation into the Economics of Milk Production carried out by the University Departments of Agricultural Economics. The latest results, for 1960–61 as compared with 1956–57, show that the increase in production costs per gallon was negligible but this has been accompanied by a reduction in the pool price due to increased national production. Although the profit margin per gallon has consequently fallen, yields per cow and the average size of the herd in the country generally have risen.
    Mr. Morris: Is the Minister aware that the latest cut of 1d. a gallon in the February price of milk makes it the lowest final average price for milk for this month since decontrol, and what does he intend to do about the unabated flood of milk? Is he aware that the latest available figures show that the profitability of the industry was down by 19 per cent. compared with last year?
    Mr. Soames: I feared that the hon. Member had put down this Question in order to ask what I was proposing to do about it. We are in the middle of the Annual Price Review the results of which I shall be announcing, and it would not be in order to comment on it at present.
    Sir J. Barlow: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the value of milk in real terms to the farmers is less now than it was twenty-five years ago, and that, relatively, the cost of distribution has increased?
    Mr. Soames: I should like notice of that supplementary question before answering in detail. But I think my hon. Friend would agree that the price fixed for the standard quantity of milk is one which would ensure a very reasonable return to the farmer.

    Brucellosis
    Mr. J. Howardasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what was the incidence of brucellosis amongst cattle in England and Wales during 1961.
    Mr. Vane: Information collected during a recent survey of this disease in dairy herds is being assembled and it is hoped that the results will be available in about three months.
    Mr. Howard: In the meantime would my hon. Friend consider giving some information of the extent to which the germ brucellosis is found in T.T. milk, in view of the fact that the disease can be communicated to human beings, in which event it is rarely, if ever, correctly diagnosed by the medical profession, as was the unhappy experience of one of my unfortunate constituents?
    Mr. Vane: Brucellosis is not present in heat-treated milk, which forms the greater part of the country's milk supply. I should not like to guess the result of the survey. It is likely to show great differences between different parts of the country, and even between different herds in the same district.

    Sea Defences, Suffolk and Norfolk
    Sir H. Harrisonasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether he is satisfied that the sea defences in Suffolk and Norfolk are strong enough to withstand a flood like that which recently hit Germany; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Vane: The sea defences in Suffolk and Norfolk have almost entirely been brought up to the standards recommended by the Waverley Committee, which reported after the coastal floods of 1953.
    A report on the recent disaster in Hamburg, prepared after consultation with the German authorities, will be considered by the Ministry's Advisory Committee on Oceanographic and Meteorological Research. We have other steps in mind, including a visit to Hamburg by drainage experts, to make sure that we learn all the lessons we can from this disaster.
    Sir H. Harrison: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that reply. Is he aware
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    that it is reported that the surge of flood water was 5 ft. higher in Hamburg than in 1953 on the Suffolk coast? Is he aware, further, that one of my constituents has twice had his land flooded in the last year and that only last night there was a breach in the sea wall in North Essex? Is he satisfied that these walls are up to the right standard?
    Mr. Vane: I never said I was satisfied because that would be a rash statement to make in regard to sea defences. I did say that we had done a great deal of work in this country since 1953 to improve coastal defences, and we intend to learn all the lessons we can from what has recently happened.
    Mr. Bullard: Will my hon. Friend say not only whether the defences are strong enough but whether they are high enough? The Waverley standards were arrived at a long time ago. In view of recent incidents abroad, would not it be a good thing if the standard height for sea defences were reviewed again now?
    Mr. Vane: These things are constantly under review. My answer was intended to cover both height and strength. The Waverley Committee was considering what one might take as the worst case.
    Mr. Speaker: Mr. Morris.
    Mr. Ridsdale: As there was a breach in the sea walls in my constituency, this morning, Mr. Speaker, may I be allowed to ask a supplementary question?
    Mr. Speaker: I am sorry, but we are making very bad progress with Questions, and there are quite a lot of breaches in sea walls in the constituencies of other hon. Members.

    Meat Marketing (Committee)
    Mr. Morrisasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether he will now give the name of the chairman and members of the committee of inquiry into the marketing of fatstock; when the committee is expected to meet; and whether he will request it to expedite its report, in view of the urgent need for a thorough reappraisal of the whole system of meat marketing.
    Sir A. Hurdasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he has now appointed a chairman for the

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    committee to inquire into meat marketing; how many other members he intends to appoint; and if the committee will report by the end of this year.
    Mr. Peartasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will now announce the personnel of the committee to investigate meat marketing
    Mr. Soames: Sir Reginald Verdon Smith has agreed to become Chairman of the Committee of Inquiry. I shall make an announcement about the composition of the Committee as soon as I can.
    Mr. Morris: I welcome this reply. May I ask why there has been such a long delay since the debate on agriculture before making the announcement? May we have an assurance that the Committee will report before we have to face another Supplementary Estimate this year for a further £78 million.
    Mr. Soames: I do not accept that it has been a long time. The formation of a Committee of this standard and importance inevitably takes some time.
    Sir A. Hurd: Can my right hon. Friend tell us what kind of people he proposes to add to the Committee? Are they to be experts or outside business men? Will he keep in mind that this is a most important and urgent problem to which members of the farming community are directing their minds, and that they would like to know what is in the mind of the Minister?
    Mr. Soames: As to the composition of the Committee, it is our view that it should be a small and completely independent Committee.
    Mr. Peart: Is the Minister aware that he should bear in mind what has been said by his hon. Friend the Member for Newbury (Sir A. Hurd) and that we desire to know what is in the Government's mind? It is all very well to have a Committee, and we should like it to act quickly, but is the Minister aware that the Government must take the initiative at some time?

    Calf Rearing (Broiler System)
    Mr. Thorpeasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what is the result of the investigations carried
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    out at his experimental centre into the rearing of calves by the broiler system, referred to in his Parliamentary Answer on 16th May, 1960; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Vane: Early in 1960 a small-scale observation study was carried out at Great House Experimental Husbandry Farm. Satisfactory results were obtained in this case by allowing the calves reasonable freedom of movement in small groups in ordinary accommodation, and keeping them not in darkness but in a subdued light. There was no evidence to suggest that the special milk substitute used in this method of rearing was detrimental to the health of the calves, to live weight gain, or to the quality of the final products.
    Mr. Thorpe: I thank the Parliamentary Secretary for his reply. Can he state with confidence that he has equal assurance that the methods being used on many private farms are not leading to cruelty in the rearing of calves? Is he aware that this is a matter which has roused very great public interest? What assurances can he give that he is satisfied that on private farms there is no abuse?
    Mr. Vane: One cannot say that one is satisfied that nowhere is an animal kept in domestic conditions subjected to any form of cruelty. But there is a law in this country to prevent cruelty. I did try to show that when calves are being fed for veal there is no reason why it should be under unpleasant conditions.

    Flood Prevention Work, North Lewisham
    and 18. Mr. Chatawayasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (1) what plans he has for expediting flood prevention work in the Manor Lane area of North Lewisham;
    (2) when he will reply to the letter of 2nd February from the Deputy Clerk of the London County Council about flood prevention work in the Rivers Quaggy and Ravensbourne.
    Mr. Vane: Since the London County Council wrote on 2nd February, we have received the plans promised in the letter and other details. These are being considered in conjunction with the council's

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    comprehensive proposals for the River Ravensbourne. A reply has now been sent to the council explaining that we hope to be in a position in two or three weeks' time to say whether or not we can approve the proposals for the Manor Lane area in isolation from the comprehensive scheme.
    Mr. Chataway: While I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that reply, may I ask if he realises that this matter is extremely urgent? Many people in this area are not able to get insurance cover because the flooding has been so long and so severe. Will he realise that it is in the spring that this flooding has always occurred, and that if no action has been taken within the next few weeks his Department will be about as popular with my constituents as the mud which will then flow into their basements.
    Mr. Vane: Apart from the last sentence of that supplementary question, I appreciate that this matter is urgent, but I hope my hon. Friend realises that this scheme is extremely difficult and extremely costly compared with many other schemes in different parts of the country. We hope, however, to make some progress shortly.

    Veterinary Surgeons
    Dr. Strossasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, in view of the fact that in this country there are only 103 qualified veterinary surgeons for each one million animals as compared with France where there are 194 and Denmark where there are 186, what steps he is taking to encourage the expansion of the teaching facilities in veterinary colleges and an increase in the number of students in those colleges.
    Mr. Soames: The Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons has told me of its anxieties about the number of veterinary surgeons likely to be available in the future and I intend to have a study made of the steps we could take to improve the position.
    Dr. Stross: Can the Minister tell us the reason for this disparity in the figures and for the inferiority we have to accept compared with France and Denmark? If he does know the reason, will he tell us?
    Mr. Soames: I do not think it is necessarily right that the number of veterinary surgeons per million animals in one country which perhaps has a large acreage but a scattered population would be the same as the figure appropriate for a small country with a concentrated population of animals.

    Horticultural Produce (Marketing)
    Mr. Loughlinasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will institute further research into the marketing of horticultural produce and in particular into the development, design and operation of packing houses and mechanical aids to facilitate standard packs.
    Mr. Soames: This is one of the objects for which the Horticultural Marketing Council has been set up under the Horticulture Act, 1960. It is already studying a variety of subjects, including the standardisation of grades and containers. If the hon. Member has in mind any particular line of research or development, perhaps he will let me know.
    Mr. Loughlin: Although I am grateful to the Minister for making that statement, may I ask him to bear in mind that there is a measure of urgency in this matter, particularly in view of the dangers to the horticultural industry in the event of our entering the Common Market?
    Mr. Soames: Yes, a great deal is being done in the way of research by the Horticultural Marketing Council.

    European Economic Community
    Mr. Peartasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether he will now make available an English translation of the regulations, decisions and resolutions adopted by the Council of the European Economic Community on 14th January, 1962.
    Mr. Soames: I have nothing to add to what my right hon. Friend the Lord Privy Seal, said in reply to a Question by the hon. Member for East Ham, South (Mr. Oram) on 26th February.
    Mr. Peart: Is not the Minister aware that, despite statements by himself earlier and also by the Lord Privy Seal, there is still a feeling that hon. Members are

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    not supplied with proper information about the agreement in Brussels? Hon. Members on both sides of the House believe that more information should be given and that there should be available to every hon. Member at least the English translation of the recent Brussels agreement.
    Mr. Soames: I think the hon. Member knows full well that this is a matter over which we have no control inasmuch as this is a document which has been prepared by the European Economic Community and it has not yet been made available. As soon as it is made available the French version will be placed in the Library of the House and a translation will be made available to hon. Members.
    Mr. Turton: In view of the promise made on 29th January that very soon something would be put in the Library, is there not an obligation on my right hon. Friend to put information in the Library for the use of hon. Members studying this subject? Surely he must have some information in the Department?
    Mr. Soames: The important thing is that my right hon. Friend the Lord Privy Seal spoke of information "which is reliable." Reliable information will be the final text which comes from Brussels, from the Community. We do not think that it would be useful to place in the Library any document which is not a final document emanating from Brussels, the timing of which is not within our control.
    Mr. Peart: The right hon. Gentleman and his Department must have some official documents. They must know what they are negotiating about. Surely it is not unreasonable to ask that hon. Members should be informed? At present hon. Members have to rely on second-hand information from other organisations. Will the right hon. Gentleman reconsider this matter?
    Mr. Soames: We have a lot of provisional information. So has the hon. Member for Workington (Mr. Peart) and others. We find it possible to get a lot of information which is provisional, but when the Government officially have to make a document available to hon. Members, it must be a full and final text.
    Mr. Walker: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the Lord Privy Seal stated in a recent reply that the Government could proceed in the negotiations upon the information that has so far been received? Why, therefore, cannot hon. Members have the information so far received?
    Mr. Soames: The negotiations have not been in any way held up in the very broad field which they cover by lack of a final document, but when Her Majesty's Government are concerned officially in giving information to hon. Members it must be the final version which they make available.
    Mr. Callaghan: As this information must be in the Department, cannot the Minister put in the Library what is known so far? We shall understand that it is provisional and not official, but at present we have to rely on information from the National Farmers' Union.
    Mr. Soames: The hon. Member is very understanding, but he would agree that it should be the final text which should be published by the Government—[HON. MEMBERS: "No."]—and it might well be misleading—[HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"]—if a text were published which in the event did not coincide exactly with the final text.
    Mr. P. Williams: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In view of the fact that this matter is of considerable importance to the House of Commons and that yesterday the Lord Privy Seal on a larger aspect made an interim statement, surely it would be in order for the Government to make an interim statement on this position?
    Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member rose to a point of order. What is the point that he desires to make?
    Mr. Williams: It is to request the Government to make an interim statement on this subject.
    Mr. Speaker: Every day I have to appeal to hon. Members to abandon the practice of rising to bogus points of order.

    Sea Defences and Coast Protection
    Mr. Loughlinasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will consult the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for

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    Welsh Affairs with a view to making sea defences and coast protection a joint national responsibility.
    Mr. Soames: No. Sir. The Exchequer already makes very substantial contributions towards the cost of coast protection and sea defence works, but the Government take the view that there should also be some local contributions.
    Mr. Loughlin: Is not the Minister aware that there is a far greater significance in this Question than there was two days ago, because of the happenings in the last two days? Is he aware that in parts of Cornwall, once again, there has been great destruction and loss of life? This happens year after year. How long are we to wait before we get some national action from his Ministry and his right hon. Friend so that this distress is prevented?
    Mr. Soames: Regarding the first part of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question, there is, I understand a Private Notice Question to my right hon. Friend the Minister of Housing and Local Government concerning the floods in Cornwall. On the broad question of the present arrangements, the Government are supported by the views expressed by the Waverley Committee and they regard the recommendations of that Committee which they have put into effect as being the best possible steps that can be made.
    Mr. Peart: In view of the loss of a considerable acreage of agricultural land, apart from the loss of life, and so on, which my hon. Friend the Member for Gloucestershire, West (Mr. Loughlin) mentioned, will the Minister keep this matter under review?
    Mr. Soames: Yes, Sir. Of course, this is always under review.
    Mr. Loughlin: In view of the quite unsatisfactory nature of the Minister's reply, I give notice that I shall raise this matter on the Adjournment at the earliest possible date.

  TRADE AND COMMERCE

    Motor Cars (Safety Belts)
    Mrs. Castleasked the President of the Board of Trade if he will inquire into the high cost of safety belts for
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    motor cars with a view to introducing price control.
    The President of the Board of Trade (Mr. F. J. Erroll): No, Sir.
    Mrs. Castle: Does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that it is very important to encourage the widespread use of these safety belts in cars and that their present cost is prohibitive for the modest car owner? Would he not, therefore, by threatening to introduce price control, induce manufacturers to look at their costs again and perhaps bring them down?
    Mr. Erroll: I agree with the hon. Lady that we should try to encourage the widespread use of car safety belts, but some fourteen manufacturers are already producing thirty different types of these belts and the prices start at less than £2 per outfit.
    Mr. Gresham Cooke: Would not the simplest way to bring down these costs be to take off Purchase Tax when this equipment is built into cars?
    Mr. Erroll: That is an interesting point, but these are not built into motor cars. They are supplied as an optional extra.

    European Free Trade Association and European Economic Community
    Mr. Biggs-Davisonasked the President of the Board of Trade how the current economic expansion of the member countries of the European Free Trade Association compares with that of the member countries of the European Economic Community.
    Mr. Erroll: The growth of national production has varied from country to country, but on average it has been greater in recent years in the European Economic Community than in the countries of the European Free Trade Association. My hon. Friend can obtain further details of the economic expansion of the various European countries from the National Accounts published by the O.E.E.C. in its Bulletins of General Statistics for July and September, 1961.
    Mr. Gaitskell: Will the President of the Board of Trade confirm that one

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    should not, nevertheless, draw too many deductions from these comparisons since there are all sorts of reasons which may explain the difference in the rate of expansion between the two groups?
    Mr. Erroll: For once I can be grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for having given me the supplementary answer which I would have made myself had I been asked the question.

    Export Credits Guarantees (Japanese Market)
    Mr. Ridsdaleasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is satisfied that the United Kingdom is sufficiently competitive as regards credit extension through the Export Credits Guarantee Department in the Japanese market; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Erroll: Yes, Sir. I hope British firms will make full use of the extensive guarantee facilities we offer. If my hon. Friend has any particular point in mind, perhaps he will let me know.
    Mr. Ridsdale: As credit is not a limiting factor in our trade with Japan, can the President of the Board of Trade say why our trade with Japan has not been increasing as fast as Germany's?
    Mr. Erroll: I should like to have that question put on the Order Paper.
    Mr. Tiley: Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that the main risks in trade with Japan are carried by our textile exporters without any help from the Export Credits' Guarantee Department—that is, for the whole of the period while the Japanese trade agreement is being negotiated? This is a very important period of six months, and will the right hon. Gentleman instruct his Department to give some cover for that period?
    Mr. Erroll: I appreciate and value the important contribution being made by the wool textile exporters to Japan and I am familiar with the point raised by my hon. Friend. But neither E.C.G.D. nor any other credit insurer covers the risks of licences being refused for licensable goods.
    Mr. Rhodes: Would it not be better to allow the British exporter to Japan
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    to enjoy the same sort of privileges in export subsidies as the Japanese themselves employ?
    Mr. Erroll: That would entail a complete change of policy regarding export subsidies for British exporters; I would not like to undertake that in respect of Japan alone.

    HOUSING (EVICTIONS)
    Mr. Brockwayasked the Prime Minister, in view of the continuing increase in the number of evictions under the Rent Acts and other parts of the law in relation to housing, if he will instruct the Minister of Housing, the Secretary of State for Scotland, the Minister of Agriculture and other affected Ministers to consult together with a view to amending the law to end all evictions from houses until satisfactory alternative accommodation is provided.
    The Prime Minister (Mr. Harold Macmillan): No, Sir.
    Mr. Brockway: Will the Prime Minister, in view of that Answer, suggest some other way of dealing with a problem which is one of the greatest social evils in this country at the moment? Is he aware that hundreds of people are homeless and that I have with me a list of twenty-four—[Laughter.]—has the Prime Minister ever heard a more disgraceful scene than the supporters behind him laughing at evictions?
    I was saying that there are twenty-four cases in my constituency at this moment, of which I have sent details to the Minister of Housing, of women in the anguish of mental breakdown through families being dispersed. Will the right hon. Gentleman do something about what is the greatest scandal among our people at the present time?
    The Prime Minister: With regard to the particular Question, my right hon. Friend has told me about the letters which the hon. Member for Eton and Slough (Mr. Brockway) has sent to him concerning cases at Slough. Of course, my right hon. Friend will himself be replying to the hon. Gentleman. I understand that very few of these

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    twenty-four cases have any direct connection with the Rent Act.
    With regard to the larger question, its ultimate solution can only be by carrying forward with vigour the great housing progress we have made in the last ten years.
    Mr. M. Stewart: Does the Prime Minister understand that whatever the reasons for which people are evicted it is the Rent Act which makes it impossible for them to find anywhere else to go? Is he aware that since the Rent Act was passed—and this is admitted by the Minister of Housing—under-occupation of property is increasing and there is no increase in the amount of property to let coming on to the market? Since the Rent Act has failed in the objects claimed for it and is producing these undoubted hardships, does not the right hon. Gentleman think that he should look at it again?
    The Prime Minister: I do not consider that the repeal of the Rent Act would serve the purposes which the hon. Gentleman has in view. It is much more likely to lead to yet greater sales of houses and less houses for rent.
    Mr. Brockway: On a point of order. In view of the unsatisfactory reply, I give notice that I will raise this matter at the earliest possible opportunity on the Adjournment, and I hope that the Prime Minister will be here to answer the debate.

    FOREIGN SECRETARY (SPEECH)
    Mrs. Hartasked the Prime Minister whether the speech of the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs at Newcastle on 3rd March, in which he discussed the political purposes to be served by Great Britain's entry into the Common Market, represents the policy of Her Majesty's Government.
    The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir.
    Mrs. Hart: Would not the Prime Minister agree that one of the essential methods of retaining the freedom that he values is to build up the economic conditions within which political freedom can operate? Would he not also agree that a great deal more attention should be given by the Foreign Secretary to our
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    co-operation within the Commonwealth as a means of building up the kind of economic security that guarantees freedom?
    The Prime Minister: The first part of that supplementary question seems to be a proposition of unexceptionable rectitude. With regard to the second part, both I and the Foreign Secretary, and all Ministers, spend a great deal of effort in trying to do work for the underdeveloped countries of the Commonwealth.
    Mr. Gaitskell: In his enthusiasm for the Common Market, the Foreign Secretary made no reference to any conditions which had to be fulfilled before we entered it. Would the Prime Minister confirm that it is still the Government's view that Commonwealth interests, the interests of British agriculture and the interests of our E.F.T.A. friends must be safeguarded before we enter the Common Market?
    The Prime Minister: That has been made clear so many times and on so many occasions, and I think that it was repeated again by the Lord Privy Seal yesterday. It is not necessary to say the same thing over and over again in order to make the purpose clear.
    Mr. Warbey: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Foreign Secretary said in his speech that the aim was to get Britain into union with Europe, and then for all of us to go into the Atlantic Community? Is it Her Majesty's Government's purpose to aim at associating this country with a permanent bloc based on N.A.T.O.?
    The Prime Minister: I cannot imagine any sentiment expressed by my noble Friend the Foreign Secretary which would be agreeable to the hon. Genleman. It seems to me a very harmless sentiment to express. We all know that there are political advantages as well as economic advantages in strengthening Western Europe and other groups of free nations.

    OFFICIAL SECRETS ACT
    Mr. S. Silvermanasked the Prime Minister whether he will move to set up a Select Committee to inquire into the working of the Official Secrets Act

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    and to make recommendations for limiting its scope to the purposes for which it was originally intended, and for the prevention of abuses.
    The Prime Minister: No, Sir.
    Mr. Silverman: Is the Prime Minister really unaware of the grave anxieties about this matter which are affecting a great many people in the country—at any rate, those who are still concerned with liberty? Is he also not aware that over the years the scope of prosecutions under this Act has become wider and wider and gone further and further from the Act's original intention, that every pledge to limit the scope of it has been broken and that the Attorney-General only recently informed the House that every safeguard in the Act can be evaded and avoided by the simple device of bringing a charge of common law conspiracy instead of a substantive offence? Is the right hon. Gentleman really satisfied with that? Does not he think it time that the Government had another look at this matter to see whether we need this apparatus of a police State?
    The Prime Minister: All those matters will be considered, but I do not think that this is the time to consider them because these cases are before the courts on appeal, and it would be very improper for me to comment on the propriety or otherwise of the prosecutions.
    Mr. Wade: On the general principle involved, would the Prime Minister agree that there appears to be a case for inquiring into the operation of this Act? If it is found that it is being used for purposes not originally intended, would it not be preferable to introduce new legislation so that Parliament might have the chance to consider it?
    The Prime Minister: I think that this is a bad moment for me to discuss the general principle while the particular application is about to go before the appeal court.
    Mr. M. Foot: Will the Prime Minister give an undertaking that he will consider the appointment of a Select Committee to consider this matter as soon as this immediate case is dealt with?
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    Meantime, will he undertake to examine and study the Report on the Sandys case which was made to this House before the war and which gave the view that the Official Secrets Act should be restricted in its use in the light of the present case when the opportunity is available?
    The Prime Minister: I cannot undertake to set up any particular form of procedure, whether by Select Committee or otherwise, but when the appeal is over I will discuss the matter with my right hon. and learned Friend the Attorney-General to see whether, in the Government's view, any action is necessary.

    COMMONWEALTH AND EUROPEAN ECONOMIC COMMUNITY
    Mrs. Castleasked the Prime Minister if he will instruct the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations and the Secretary of State for the Home Department, as the Minister in charge of Common Market negotiations, to prepare plans for strengthening the United Kingdom's ties with the Commonwealth in the event of the failure of these negotiations.
    The Prime Minister: I hope that the United Kingdom's ties with other members of the Commonwealth will continue to become stronger whether or not the negotiations with the European Economic Community are successful.
    Mrs. Castle: Is it not a fact that Her Majesty's Government have given the impression that we in Britain have to get into the Common Market at any price? [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] Is not this an absurd way to negotiate? Would not the publication now of an alternative plan for a Commonwealth free trade area help us to get better terms by proving that we were going in as equals and not as suppliants?
    The Prime Minister: No, Sir. The Government have given no such impression, either in the debate when the House authorised the negotiations to begin or at any subsequent time.

    NATIONAL EXPENDITURE (MINISTERIAL RESPONSIBILITY)
    Mr. Hirstasked the Prime Minister what further proposals he has for a reorganisation of the system of Ministerial responsibility in order to enable more effective control to be exercised over the level of national expenditure, in view of the failure of Her Majesty's Government to fulfil their declared policy in this regard.
    The Prime Minister: I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply which I gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Farnham (Sir G. Nicholson) on 13th February.
    Mr. Hirst: I know all about that, but does not my right hon. Friend appreciate that in the years that the Conservative Party has been in power we have collected four ex-Chancellors, including my right hon. Friend, who, most unhappily, dismally failed in this task? Does not he appreciate that unless and until the Government as a whole and the Prime Minister in particular control and manage policy, expenditure will not be controlled but will continue to control them?
    The Prime Minister: These difficulties have been discussed and the Chancellor of the Exchequer made a statement about them on 27th February. I am happy to think, however, that, in spite of the difficulties over thees years, we have had the support of my hon. Friend throughout.
    Mr. Jay: Is the Prime Minister aware that, as a result of the statement of the Minister of Defence this week, we have a Supplementary Estimate for the next financial year before that year has begun? Does he think that that is a good start?
    The Prime Minister: I understand the right hon. Gentleman to be referring to the pay of the Forces. I do not know whether he is opposed to that.
    Mr. Hirst: Does not my right hon. Friend think that he should have reread some of the correspondence which I have sent to him concerning expenditure before he let off that broadside a few moments ago? Perhaps my support has not been all that he might have liked
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    in detail, but I have been happy to support the Conservative Government in principle.
    The Prime Minister: Perhaps I should have said that my hon. Friend has given us his support almost throughout this time. However, this has been reciprocal, because he will remember that he asked me to go to speak for him, which I did.
    Mr. Grimond: Has the right hon. Gentleman studied the criticisms which have been made lately about estimating by various Ministries? If so, has he any proposals to improve it?
    The Prime Minister: Of course, the right hon. Gentleman knows that there are great difficulties about Estimates. After some experience, I think that the remarkable thing is the accuracy which our officials achieve in these Estimates. Certainly they are as accurate as any estimate one is able to make in any large industry. There are, perhaps, variations of 1 or 2 per cent., but the sums concerned are very large. Often in the past, especially in the Service and supply Departments, we used to estimate and find that we were not able to get delivery. Now delivery is better, and sometimes it runs more rapidly than the Estimates.

    FEDERATION OF RHODESIA AND NYASALAND
    Mr. Donnellyasked the Prime Minister whether he will now publish the assurances he gave in writing to Sir Roy Welensky regarding the British Government's support for the Federation of Rhodesia and Nyasaland.
    The Prime Minister: I do not know to what assurances the hon. Gentleman refers. No communication has been sent to Sir Roy Welensky which in any way conflicts with Her Majesty's Government's public statements of their aims in Central Africa.
    Mr. Donnelly: I do not hold any brief for Sir Roy Welensky, but may I ask whether the Prime Minister is aware that there is a widespread feeling from the facts which are available that the British Government have betrayed him? At what point in time did the Government warn him of the prospect of his having

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    to face the possibility of a black African majority in the Central African Federation?
    The Prime Minister: As the hon. Gentleman knows, it is obligatory on us to consult the Federal Government about the constitutions of the local Governments. This was carried out perfectly properly, both by the High Commissioner—we have a very able and experienced High Commissioner there—and by prolonged discussions between the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations and Sir Roy Welensky only a few weeks ago.
    Mr. Biggs-Davison: Have not charges of bad faith and the dishonouring of assurances been levelled against Her Majesty's Government from Central Africa, and are not these damaging to Britain's reputation? Therefore, will the Prime Minister consider consulting Sir Roy Welensky about the possibility of the publication of White Papers in London and Salisbury to clear the air and to get us on to a better basis of understanding with this important Commonwealth country?
    The Prime Minister: I should, of course, be ready to do that, but I do not think it would be right, and I do not think Sir Roy Welensky would wish, to destroy the long-established basis of confidential messages between Ministers.
    Mr. Healey: While recognising the obligation of Her Majesty's Government to consult the Federal Government on constitutional changes, could the right hon. Gentleman make it clear that the ultimate right to decide what constitutional changes should be made rests unequivocally and exclusively with this House?
    The Prime Minister: I thought that that was made clear by the Secretary of State for the Colonies a few days ago.

    NUCLEAR TESTS, CHRISTMAS ISLAND
    Mr. Rankinasked the Prime Minister what consultations he had with President Kennedy prior to the United States decision to resume atmospheric test next month at Christmas Island.
    The Prime Minister: I would refer the hon. Gentleman to the statement which I made on Monday.
    Mr. Rankin: Is the Prime Minister aware of the growing feeling that, apart altogether from any kind of proposal that Mr. Khrushchev may make, the United States will resume atmospheric tests on Christmas Island, on the simple ground that she is now prepared to use her nuclear and conventional might for the same sort of reason that we used to use the gunboat?
    The Prime Minister: Of course, if that is the hon. Gentleman's view of the policies pursued by the British Government and the United States Government together, I cannot change his mind. All that I can do is to repeat again what I said had been agreed and state what I believe to be the hope of the whole House—that the conversations about to open in Geneva may be fruitful.

WEST CORNWALL (STORM DAMAGE)
Mr. Hayman Mr. Hayman (by Private Notice) asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs whether he is aware of the severe damage caused by gales and heavy seas in West Cornwall, and whether he will make a statement.
The Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister For Welsh Affairs (Dr. Charles Hill): Yes, Sir. I understand that in Penzance and Newlyn about 50 families were evacuated from their homes yesterday evening because of flooding by the sea, but many of them are already returning. Although structural damage to houses does not appear to have been severe, the sea defences I understand, have been extensivly damaged and I have arranged for an engineering inspector to visit Penzance today to advise the council on repairs.
In the Camborne-Redruth area, I am informed that storm damage to houses has been fairly widespread, though it is too early yet to say how severe it has been. I am in touch with the Camborne and Redruth Urban District Council.
Mr. Hayman: May I thank the Minister for his reply, and say that the question was prompted first by the fact that the

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hon. Member for St. Ives (Mr. G. R. Howard) is in bed as a result of an accident? May I also ask the House to pay tribute to all the public services in Penzance, which carried out wonderful work during a terrifying experience?
Will the Minister bear in mind that the population of Penzance is only 19,000 that there are several miles of sea defences, and that Penzance and Camborne-Redruth are both areas of high and persistent unemployment?
May I ask him whether he will arrange for the Government to be generous in the grants that may be necessary for sea defences, for road works and public works of that kind and will he be prepared to assist West Cornwall in the public appeal that has been launched for the repair of damage to private property by matching it pound for pound?
May I, further, assure the right hon. Gentleman that Camborne-Redruth has an immense amount of old property, which is in places very exposed to gales from the Atlantic?
Dr. Hill: I gladly join with the hon. Member in the tribute which he paid to the public services. The main problem is that of the sea defences that have been breached. If any undue burden falls on the rates, the council will be eligible for Exchequer grant towards that cost.
The question of damage to houses is primarily a matter for concern in the Camborne-Redruth area. The local authority, for example, estimates that £2,500 worth of damage has been done to its own property. Again, if any undue burden falls on the rates, we will gladly consider the position. I understand that the Camborne-Redruth Council has decided not at this moment to launch an appeal. If it does so decide, I will consider the position that arises.
Mr. Maxwell-Hyslop: Can my right hon. Friend give any details of the damage done on the coast of South Devon, particularly in the vicinity of Dawlish and Dawlish Warren?
Dr. Hill: I have had no report or request from the local authorities in that area. I am making inquiries, but at the moment my information is limited to what I have seen in the Press.
Mr. G. Brown: The Minister's reference to an undue burden on the rates, which is the same as the reference that he made in the case of Sheffield, is very vague. Will not the Government now consider whether, in view of this damage, following on the wind and storm damage in the Midlands and the North a few weeks ago, there is not a very strong case for considering the setting up of a national disaster fund, to which automatic recourse could be made in the case of any authority very badly hit, like this one?
Dr. Hill: On the subject of "undue", the resources of different authorities vary. I think that it is wise that the circumstances of each authority, in the light of the burden that falls upon it, should be individually considered.
On the general subject of a disaster fund, I have nothing to add to the reply I gave to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond) a few weeks ago.
Mr. D. Marshall: With reference to the answer which my right hon. Friend has already given, can he say whether he has any knowledge at all as to any breaches in the sea defences, either in East Cornwall or in the immediate surroundings of West Devon?
Dr. Hill: I have given the House all the information I have at the moment. I am seeking to get more comprehensive information and I expect to have it during the course of the next day or two.
Mr. Loughlin: In view of the nature of the particular area involved in this breach of sea defences, does not the Minister agree that almost any burden would be an undue burden? In these circumstances would he not take the perhaps unprecedented step of giving an assurance that the Government will bear the cost in this instance, because of the nature of the area?
Dr. Hill: The words I have used have covered what has happened previously in similar circumstances to the satisfaction, I believe, of the local authorities concerned. I readily accept that, in this case, from the reports so far received, there may be a very heavy burden on a small authority.
Mr. G. Wilson: May I ask my right hon. Friend whether his answer extends over the whole of Cornwall, because I understand that there has been some damage in my own division, but I have been unable to get full particulars of it?
Dr. Hill: Yes, Sir, in so far as it refers to coastal defences, or damage to houses, which it would not in the case of my hon. Friend's division, the reply obtains generally.
Mr. M. Stewart: Is the Minister aware that his reference to "any undue burden" on a local authority did not give general satisfaction? Is it not possible to lay down more clearly what are the principles which will govern help from the central Government in these cases, so that the local authorities will know more clearly where they stand? Has he noticed that there has been damage in the Isles of Scilly and, as that is a community with a very small population, will he be ready, if necessary, to give it help in the repair work that will be required?
Dr. Hill: To the second part of the hon. Gentleman's question, the answer, clearly, is "Yes". To the first part, as I have said in answer to the right hon. Member for Belper (Mr. G. Brown), I think that it is in the interests of local authorities, with their varying resources, that each case should be considered on its merits. I assure the hon. Geneleman that they will be fairly and sympathetically treated when the cost is known.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Mr. Gaitskell: May I ask the Leader of the House whether he will state the business for next week?
The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Mr. Iain Macleod): Yes, Sir. The business for next week will be as follows:
MONDAY, 12TH MARCH—Supply [8th Allotted Day]: Air Estimates, 1962–63.
Consideration in Committee of Vote A.
TUESDAY, 13TH MARCH— Supply [9th Allotted Day]: Committee stage of the Civil Estimates, Vote on Account, 1962–63, when we propose to debate
592
National Insurance Benefits and National Assistance Scales.
WEDNESDAY, 14TH MARCH—Supply [10th Allotted Day]: Navy Estimates, 1962–63.
Consideration in Committee of Vote A.
THURSDAY, 15TH MARCH—Supply [11th Allotted Day]: Committee.
Army Votes 1, 2, 8, 9, 10, 11.
The Royal Ordnance Factories Estimate.
The War Office Purchasing (Repayment) Services and Army Supplementary Estimate.
Navy Votes 1, 2, 6, 10, 11 and 14.
Air Votes, 1,2,7,8,9,11.
Air Supplementary Estimate.
It may be found to be generally convenient to devote two hours to each of the three Services.
FRIDAY, 16TH MARCH—Consideration of private Members' Motions.
MONDAY, 19TH MARCH—The proposed business will be: Supply [12th Allotted Day]: Committee stage of the Civil Supplementary Estimates.
At 9.30 p.m. the Questions will be put from the Chair on the Vote under discussion and on all outstanding Votes, under the provisions of Standing Order No. 16.
Mr. Gaitskell: Will the right hon. Gentleman confirm that there will be a suspension of two hours on Monday and Wednesday in connection with the Air and Navy Estimates?
On another matter, he will recall the Question of the hon. Member for Caithness and Sutherland (Sir D. Robertson) earlier this week and the exchange which took place thereon, in the course of which the question of a permanent Standing Committee on Procedure was raised. Has the right hon. Gentleman had time to think about the particular problem raised by the hon. Member for Caithness and Sutherland and about the more general question of a permanent Standing Committee of the kind suggested?
Mr. Macleod: On the first matter, it is proposed to suspend for two hours for

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both the Air Estimates and the Navy Estimates, following the same procedure as for the Army Estimates.
On the other matter and the Motion which is on the Order Paper, there are, I think two points. I have always made clear—I hope that the House will agree with this—that it would be wrong to censure the Committee of Selection, which is composed of very experienced Members from both sides of the House, for doing what I believe we have instructed it to do.
I do not agree with what the Leader of the Liberal Party said last week, that the Standing Order would not need amendment. I think that the Committee has followed the Standing Order as it stands. If we wish to give different instructions, as it were, as a House, I am very ready to consider that. I agree with the Leader of the Opposition that perhaps a Standing Committee on Procedure to consider this and other matters remitted to it by the House might be the best way of proceeding. If that is convenient to the House, I shall be very happy to agree.
[That this House takes note of the situation of the honourable Member for Caithness and Sutherland and other minorities in the House in relation to selection for service on Standing Committees; and expresses its disquiet at the present position.]
Mr. Grimond: Is it not possible for the numbers on the particular Committee to be increased? If there is any question of upsetting the composition of the Committee, the difficulty could be overcome simply by increasing the numbers. I suggest that as a possible way out in this case, without derogating from the suggestion that there should be a Committee on the whole subject.
Mr. Macleod: Here again, the Committee of Selection was obeying the instructions given to it by the House. The Select Committee on Procedure of a Session or two ago suggested that, on the whole, the numbers appointed to Standing Committees should be smaller than hitherto. The Committee of Selection was carrying out that suggestion.
Mr. G. Brown: On another matter relating to Committees, will the Leader of the House say what has happened to
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the Motion on House of Lords reform and whether it is the Government's intention to find time for it this Session?
[That is is expedient that a Joint Committee of both Houses of Parliament be appointed to consider whether any, and if so what, changes should be made in the rights of Peers of England, Scotland, Ireland, Great Britain or of the United Kingdom, and of Peeresses in their own right, to sit in either House of Parliament, or to vote at Parliamentary elections, or whether, and if so under what conditions, a Peer should be enabled to surrender a peerage permanently or for his lifetime or for any less period having regard to the effects and consequences thereof.]
Mr. Macleod: It will be either in the next announcement of business—that is what I hope—or at worst the one after that.
Mr. P. Williams: Will my right hon. Friend accept that the Motion regarding the selection of my hon. Friend the Member for Caithness and Sutherland (Sir D. Robertson), to which he has referred, is in no way intended to censure anyone for what has happened? Could he tell us Whether, after he has had conversations through the usual channels, perhaps with the Leader of the Opposition, he will be able to make a statement on the matter during the course of next week?
Mr. Macleod: I entirely accept what my hon. Friend has said, and I am very glad he has made that explanation. The Committee of Selection is a Committee of the House which we have appointed to carry out instructions we have given to it.
As far as timing goes, I shall, of course, consult through the usual channels and, perhaps, on this occasion, through more unusual channels as well, and do it as quickly as I can.
Mr. S. Silverman: Will the right hon. Gentleman, in considering the appointment of such a Committee as was suggested by my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition, bear in mind that the whole difficulty arises out of the practice in making the selections—Which may be correct; I am not criticising—of giving the major parties the dominant control of the situation? If the subject is to be reviewed by a

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Committee, will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind the possible advisability of having someone on the Committee who is not, as it were, represented by the usual channels?
Mr. Macleod: One of the factors which may give rise to difficulty is the necessity, which I am sure the House recognises, that just as a Government, in order to carry on at all, must command a majority in the House, so they must have a majority in a Standing Committee. The Standing Order refers specifically to this, and it is precisely that matter and the sort of point which the hon. Gentleman raises which should be considered by the Committee which has been suggested.
Sir J. Duncan: Has any approach been made to my right hon. Friend by the Opposition in connection with Motion No. 74, dealing with the Common Market? Some of us would like to know whether it is to be debated so that we may find out whether the Leader of the Opposition has been nobbled by Mr. Kennedy on this as well as on defence.
[That this House requires the following as conditions of entering the European Economic Community, namely, guarantees safeguarding the position of British agriculture, the Commonwealth, and the European Free Trade Area countries; that Great Britain retains her present freedom to conduct her own foreign policy and to use public ownership and economic planning to ensure social progress within the United Kingdom; further welcomes the initiative of the United States Government in seeking a low tariff agreement between the United States of America and the Common Market; and urges that the products of the underdeveloped countries be given free entry into the Common Market.]
Mr. Macleod: When my right hon. Friend the Lord Privy Seal made a statement to the House, there was a suggestion afterwards that, at some appropriate time, which we did not attempt to define too closely, it might be appropriate to debate this matter.
Mr. Shinwell: Was not an announcement made by the Chairman of the Committee of Ways and Means at the opening of our proceedings this afternoon
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that, because of the objection raised by an hon. Member opposite to the proposal to make an appointment to the Committee of Selection, the matter would be dealt with on Monday? Was that correct, or was it merely an irrelevant statement?
Will the Leader of the House bear in mind that in the appointments made by the Committee of Selection to several Committees or to any particular Committee, it sometimes occurs that one is not selected if one is not in favour with the usual channels, which, of course, is the antithesis of democracy?
Mr. Macleod: On the first matter, the position is a well known and almost formal one, that the Question is put off from day to day until it is either obtained or, if sufficiently opposed, it has to be discussed by the House. I hope that the agreement which I think we have come to this afternoon will enable that item of business to go through.
The second point which the right hon. Gentleman raises is precisely the sort of matter which such a Committee should consider.
Sir A. V. Harvey: Has my right hon. Friend had time to give further consideration to the Motion standing in my name and the names of 130 right hon. and hon. Members which deals with the plight of widows and pensioners, and has he had time to speak to the Chancellor of the Exchequer about it?
[That this House, recognising the hardship suffered by retired officers, pensioned other ranks and widows of the armed services, especially those who are old, whose retired pay and pensions cannot be debated under Pensions (Increase) Bills and bear no relation to current awards, urges Her Majesty's Government immediately to improve the pensions of widows bereaved before 4th November, 1958, and to examine the conditions peculiar to all armed service pensioners, and, as soon as economic circumstances permit, to introduce special provisions to improve their retired pay and pensions.]
Mr. Macleod: I have spoken to the Financial Secretary, who has a special responsibility in this matter, and I have done what I told my hon. and gallant Friend last week I would do. My hon.

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and gallant Friend knows that legislation is involved. There have been several pensions Acts since the war—five in all, I think—and I have represented fully to my hon. Friend the Financial Secretary and to my right hon. Friends the sense of the Motion which has been tabled.
Mr. Brockway: Has the right hon. Gentleman noticed the Motion on the Order Paper in the names of 150 right hon. and hon. Members asking for facilities for consideration of the Racial Discrimination and Incitement Bill? Can he respond to that request, or at least give the House an opportunity to consider the Motion?
[That this House requests the Government to provide facilities for the consideration of the Racial Discrimination and Incitement Bill.]
Mr. Macleod: There are opportunities to discuss matters which the House wishes to discuss. The hon. Gentleman will recall that he brought an all-party delegation to discuss this matter with me last week. I have written to him today and sent copies to all those who came with him to see me. I have no objection whatever to his publishing my reply if he wishes to do so. It is only fair to say that, having consulted my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary in this matter, I have not changed the view I put previously to the hon. Gentleman.
Dame Irene Ward: It is difficult to understand quite what my right hon. Friend has said to the Financial Secretary about the Motion to which my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Macclesfield (Sir A. V. Harvey) referred. Am I to understand that he, not as Leader of the House but as Chairman of the Conservative Party, commended the terms of the Motion to the Financial Secretary? Further, on the point about legislation, will my right hon. Friend please remember that, if we must find time for it, all of us, on both sides of the House, I think, would be prepared to sit all night to put the legislation through?
Mr. Macleod: I will certainly bear that in mind. Naturally, I represented the view expressed by my hon. Friend the Member for Macclesfield (Sir A. V. Harvey), in my capacity as Leader
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of the House, to my hon. Friend the Financial Secretary. It is the Chancellor of the Exchequer, of course, who has the prime responsibility—although a number of other Ministries are also involved—to decide what action should be taken on the Motion.
Mr. C. Pannell: Does the right hon. Gentleman recall that the proposal to put increased accommodation for hon. Members above the roof was deferred for one year because of the financial exigencies of the Government? It was presumably for that reason, also, that the proposed Select Committee on Accommodation was not set up. Bearing in mind that we hope that a start will be made on this work during the Summer Recess, does not the right hon. Gentleman think that the time is ripe to set up a Select Committee on Accommodation to plan these further facilities for hon. Members, and so not entirely leave us to the whims of the Civil Service?
Mr. Macleod: I have been having discussions not just in connection with the Palace of Westminster but also about another site which the hon. Gentleman knows about and which is in prospect of being developed. I have no announcement on these matters to make at this time, but I have been considering the problem.
Mr. D. Marshall: If my right hon. Friend is to have discussions on the Motion on minority rights through the usual channels—and perhaps through unusual channels—will he take account of the fact that it is the Government and the Opposition supporters who are in the majority in this House and that the Independent Members outnumber those of the Liberal Party?
Sir B. Janner: My hon. Friend the Member for Eton and Slough (Mr. Brockway) has pointed out that there are now 150 signatories to his Motion calling for a debate on his Racial Discrimination and Incitement Bill. How many names of right hon. and hon. Gentlemen are required on a Motion to justify its discussion in this House? Will the right hon. Gentleman reconsider his decision?
Mr. Macleod: I recognise the support given to the Motion. The principle of detestation of racial discrimination is

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not in dispute. What is genuinely disputed by those who detest racial discrimination as much as does the hon. Gentleman is whether it is possible effectively to move against it by the sort of Bill contemplated. That is the true matter that is in dispute.
Mr. Gaitskell: Does not that answer by the right hon. Gentleman provide a very strong case for a debate on the subject? Will he reconsider his point of view on this? Either the case made out by my hon. Friend the Member for Eton and Slough is an overwhelming one, widely supported—in which case there are many precedents for the Government to find time for the Bill—or, if there is a dispute, should it not be cleared up by debate?
Mr. Macleod: Clearly everybody knows that there is dispute in this matter because, in one form or another, the Bill has been before the House for many years and has never commanded the universal support of the House, although I acknowledge that it has considerable support in all parties. I do not believe that it would be right, therefore, for the Government to provide time for a Bill that is contentious in order to lift it, as it were, over the many other Private Members' Bills to which they and their sponsors attach a good deal of importance.
Mr. Warbey: The right hon. Gentleman has put down various Votes on Service Estimates, for next Thursday. It is customary practice to do so, but it provides extremely inadequate time for
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the discussion of a number of important matters under about eighteen different headings. The right hon. Gentleman spoke of a rationing of time by devoting two hours to each Service, but we did not get such a division last year. Is there any chance that we shall get it this year, and that those of us who want to raise the question of expenditure on nuclear weapons, on Vote 7, of the Air Estimates, will get a chance of doing so?
Mr. Macleod: As the hon. Gentleman knows, these matters are often arranged. The procedure I have suggested for next Thursday follows the one we have had over the last seven years, and I hope that the House will agree to take these subjects in the order I suggest—the Army, the Royal Navy and then the Royal Air Force—and to give them each two hours.
Miss Vickers: In view of the stress laid in the Defence White Paper on the importance of civil defence, and the fact that there was not a Minister from the Home Office present during the defence debate earlier this week, may we have time to debate this very important subject?
Mr. Macleod: I cannot promise a special day for this subject, as I have said before to the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman) and others, but we are discussing at present important matters of defence and I would have thought that, in some of these debates at least, the question of civil defence would be in order.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

  SUPPLY
  [7TH ALLOTTED DAY]
  Considered in Committee.
  [Sir WILLIAM ANSTRUTHER-GRAY in the Chair]

ARMY ESTIMATES, 1962–63

  VOTE A. NUMBER OF LAND FORCES
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  That a number of Land Forces, not exceeding 252,000, all ranks, be maintained for the safety of the United Kingdom and the defence of the possessions of Her Majesty's Crown, during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1963.
  3.57 p.m.
  The Secretary of State for War (Mr. John Profumo): It has become customary for the Secretary of State, in presenting the Army Estimates, to set the scene for the Army's policy during the forthcoming twelve months, and so, of course, there is always a central theme running through these speeches. Last year, I took up most of the time speaking about our chief task on hand then—recruiting. This year, I want to make the theme of my speech the new all-Regular Army.
  We are at a very significant moment in our military history. Unless world tension deflects us from our declared policy, these Estimates are the last to be presented for a conscript Army, or, to put it another way, by the time we debate these matters next year, we shall, to all intents and purposes, have an all-volunteer Army once again.
  For the past twenty years or more we have been compelling young men to serve in the Army. A conscripted force is a very different thing from an Army made up entirely of men who have voluntarily decided to make it their career. Today, we have only a few officers and senior N.C.O.s who had any practical experience of life and service in an all-Regular Army.
  The new Army has to be organised, exist and endure in a Welfare State with full employment. Shall we be able to get the recruits we need? Will the Welfare
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  State have its repercussions on a modern all-Regular Army? These are two important questions we have to face. Suffice it to say that we are looking at all the matters with which we are concerning ourselves in the War Office today—recruiting, leadership, morale, pay, conditions, training, equipment, flexibility, reserves, and so on—in relation to their effect on an all-Regular Army. We know that we have to adjust our minds all the time if we are to be able to attract the right sort of men for the job.
  Last year, when we talked about recruiting, not everyone accepted my forecast that would reach our minimum target of 165,000 by the beginning of 1963, but I think that we have now reached a stage—there are only ten months to go—when it is fairly clear that, if the present pace persists, we shall be there. We might even do better.
  It is clear that the measures we took during the last two or three years to improve conditions in the Army, to publicise it as a fine career, and to mobilise a first-class recruiting organisation are having the effects we wanted. Look at the change that has taken place. In the first half of 1961 we were just feeling our way and recruiting went up by about 12 per cent. Compared with the previous year, which was a poor one, anyway, we were not doing much more than holding our own. But what a difference in the last three months of 1961, when the campaign had really got into its swing. We were up 80 per cent. on the previous year and now it looks as if we are running at 40 per cent. above 1961.
  So, high-pressure public appeal is here to stay as far as we are concerned and this year's plans are already under way. We shall be keeping the Army in the public eye by means of teams from units both at home and in Germany, and the Territorial Army is to take part in a big way. We shall press on with our special overseas recruiting which made a very good start last year in the West Indies, the Seychelles and Fiji. This is only part of the manpower story. It is just as important to keep the men as it is to get them, and in some ways it is more difficult these days. However, there are encouraging signs here, too. The net increase in the strength of the Regular

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  Army during the last four months of 1961 was nearly 3,500, so we are on the right lines. My constant study of these problems since I have been at the War Office has led me to two or three general conclusions.
  First, I do not believe that it is true today—perhaps it never was—that unemployment is the best recruiting sergeant. Our statistics bear this out. The Midlands, and other predominantly industrial areas where there are sometimes two or three jobs for every man, are our best recruiting areas and where we have had the most striking improvement during recent months. Compare this with Scotland and Northern Ireland. They are both admittedly fairly good recruiting spots at any time, but, in spite of the unemployment which, unfortunately, still exists there, recruiting has not improved to anything like the same extent. Clearly, there is no relationship between unemployment and recruiting. This gives the lie to the gibe that men will join the Army only if they cannot get any other job. I simply do not believe it. People are choosing the Army as a career because they want a life of interest and excitement with a chance to see something of the outside world—a life of comradeship and service to their country. This is a welcome sign, because it means that even in an era of full employment we should be able to keep an adequate standing Army by voluntary recruitment.
  My next conclusion is this. It is not enough just to run recruiting campaigns from time to time. Making the young Army-minded must now be a permanent feature of our policy and we will not be home and dry until every healthy young man automatically considers the Army as one form of life he might follow.
  My third conclusion is that wastage will improve when the Army becomes all-Regular again, when there are not so many people in a unit whose eyes are constantly on "civvy street", when all are there because they want to be, and when the old Regular spirit comes back again.
  Although, as I have said, there are encouraging signs, I am by no means satisfied yet with the decrease in wastage. I repeat that all of us in the War Office
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  realise that, to keep the men the Army wants, we must give them what they are entitled to expect from the Army, and we are watching carefully to see that restrictions are kept to the bare minimum, consistent with the needs of a disciplined force.
  During the last twelve months or so, I have visited every major overseas command and have seen how the Army is adjusting itself to modern trends and standards. The most important thing in all this is to establish the correct relationship between the soldier and the young officer. This is nowadays often referred to as man-management, but it is more than this. It is the establishment of confidence between the two based on mutual respect and understanding. We are working to improve this relationship all the time.
  Now, a word or two about the Women's Services. There is good news here, also. Recruiting is up all round. But marriage is still our greatest occupational hazard. To keep pace with the wedding bells we must do better still. We have already started a recruiting campaign for women, and we shall make the greatest possible use of television.
  Finally, there is our appeal to the younger generation still—to boys. This has been outstandingly successful. At the beginning of 1961 we had 7,200 boys under training. Now we have 9,800, and we expect to be up to nearly 11,000 by the beginning of 1963. Now we have got to the stage when the limitations are training facilities and accommodation rather than candidates. This is a good sign, because we can deal with that. We are going to expand the capacity of our boys' units as far as possible, and two new Junior Tradesmen's units, one at Troon, in Scotland, and one at Rhyl, in North Wales, are being opened. These will produce another 1,000 tradesmen a year and will soon make a valuable contribution towards filling those specialist jobs which are so difficult to fill today.
  When we talk about recruiting in a general way, we mean signing on the ordinary average man—the normal soldier. But there is another side to recruiting which presents a very considerable problem. This is how to attract into the Army enough "out of the ordinary" men—specialists—to cope with the multitude of complicated

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  aspects of a balanced modern fighting force. One of the great problems of our age is that there are simply not enough of those specialists to go round, even in civil life. So, if the Army is to get its share of these V.I.Ps, it has to take special steps quite outside its normal recruiting techniques. A good example of this specialist problem is the difficulty of recruiting doctors and dentists. We are very short of both. Next year we shall be shorter still. With the ending of National Service, and the run-out of many short-service commission doctors, we are face to face with a dangerous situation, a situation in which decisive measures—not the ordinary recruiting devices—will be needed to preserve an efficient medical service.
  The other Service Ministers and I have been in the closest consultation with the Minister of Defence and we have also held discussions with the B.M.A. If we are ever to get enough doctors, two things must be done. First, we must give them a satisfying professional career. Secondly, disturbances and the many onerous obligations of Service life must be recognised in their remuneration. I do not think that we have been giving our young doctors a satisfying professional career in the Army and the chance to build up as wide a medical experience as they could get in civil practice. One reason for this is the limited scope of the unit medical officer and many field medical units.
  I do not believe that we are justified in continuing this organisation. So we have decided substantially to reduce the number of field medical units at full strength and leave just enough to deal with emergencies. From now onwards doctors will be stationed geographically on an area, as compared with a unit, basis, and they will care for all entitled patients in their area in the same way as a National Health Service doctor does. Many of these will be women and children and when they are serving abroad, there will be civilian employees as well.
  We are determined that doctors shall concentrate as much as possible on doctoring. They must have proper transport facilities—even aeroplanes if necessary; I do not reject the idea of some form of flying doctor—and the married doctor must have a quarter. They must be given opportunities to
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  obtain certain qualifications and be rewarded with extra pay if they do; and they must be encouraged to go on with general practice doctoring right into the more senior ranks. From now on it will be possible to do so up to and including the rank of full colonel. Promotion will not bind doctors to administration. We are already cutting down on desk doctors.
  So much for the G.P.
  Mr. F. J. Bellenger: The Minister will recall that I raised this point in the debate on defence and again in a supplementary question. The right hon. Gentleman then said that he would be dealing with the point I raised, namely, that in B.A.O.R. the strength of doctors in the units is down to 50 per cent. Is it as low as that? Does his statement mean that the war establishment of medical officers in units will be cut down?
  Mr. Profumo: It is very largely because the right hon. Gentleman raised this question that I thought that this would be a good opportunity to say something about it. It does not alter the war establishment. What I am saying will obtain in Germany. It means that when this is organised—we cannot do it at once—the number of doctors we have in B.A.O.R. will be spaced more generally on an area basis, at any rate in peace time. What is more important than the numbers is that it will mean a very much wider practice and they will be able to do much more of the type of thing the doctor in civil life does.
  I want to say a word about the specialist. So far as he is concerned, we do not intend, as I have seen it suggested, to reduce the degree of specialisation, but to improve standards in every way. The specialist will soon be able to become a consultant with a professional standing as high as any in civil life.
  With all this in mind, I am proposing to start an intensive recruiting campaign for Army doctors. Of course, I realise that pay is one of the most important factors in all this, and my right hon. Friends and I are urgently considering this. Meanwhile, the Army will offer

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  the following eight-point plan of inducements:
  Active employment up to 60; retired employment to 65, with the rate for the job as well as full Army pension; better promotion; married quarters for G.P.s and specialists; more short service commissions; commissions for newly-qualified doctors in their pre-registration year; medical scholarships giving commissions with full pay and allowances, and full payment of tuition fees, to students during the final stages of their training; up to seven years' seniority towards rank and pay for doctors joining the Army from civil life.
  All these represent a new deal for doctors and dentists, and I understand that, generally speaking, they apply to the Royal Navy and the Royal Air Force as well. The British Medical Association, which has given our plans its fullest approval and support, has expressed itself anxious to help. I hope the medical schools and the universities will also co-operate in this important campaign, which is not only to preserve but also to improve the medical services in the years to come.
  Housing the Army has been one of the hardest nuts that we have had to crack since the war. There is still a lot to be done before we can really say that we have achieved a decent standard of housing all round. None the less, to have reached the point where about three-quarters of all the married men serving overseas have their wives and families with them shows the measure of progress.
  Abroad, I confess, I should like to have done better this last year. But while we have been considering the new strategy, involving as it does changes in deployment, planning has had to be held up. Wherever we could, we have been pressing ahead. As hon. Members will have seen in the Memorandum, a good deal of work is already in hand.
  At last, we are really beginning to make an impression on the wholesale rebuilding of old out-of-date barracks. During this coming year, half a dozen major new barracks will be completed, as well as the first two infantry brigade depôts at Sutton Coldfield and Cwrt-y-Gollen, and I hope that we shall get the
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  fine new Guards barracks at Chelsea finished in the late summer.
  This is the Army's first big building scheme in our capital for nearly a hundred years, and I believe that it will be an added attraction to our scene. We have a lot more ideas, including a spectacular concept in the planning stage to replace Knightsbridge barracks. I hope that we shall be able to bring it off before long.
  Now a word on equipment. We shall be getting a lot of new fighting equipment during the next few years. The important thing is that the tempo of re-equipment is steadily increasing. In 1959–60 the production subheads of the Stores Vote came to £73 million gross. This year, I am asking for £91 million. This is not perhaps quite as quick an expansion as I should like, but practical limitations govern what can be done. We cannot just think up a complex modern weapon today and get it, let alone use it, tomorrow. Design, construction of prototypes and tough testing in the field take years, and on top of that we have got our full-scale production time. The long journey from the drawing board to the battlefield may take up to eight years, and anyone who thinks that it can be done much quicker had better have a look at the United States. The same thing happens there, as it does, of course, in Russia, and any other country, too. So it is no good my promising spectacular leaps forward—just steady progress.
  Today, the Army is—and so it should be—better equipped than it was three or four years ago, and by the middle-1960s it will be better still. By then, almost every weapon which was in use in the middle-1950s will have been replaced by something far better. Flexibility and mobility are of first importance today. Mobile equipment plays a big part in all this. For example, the 105mm pack howitzer, which can be moved in and dropped from transport aircraft. Our mobile reserve forces will be fully equipped with this gun during the coming year. We shall have the Malkara anti-tank guided missile in service later in the year, and the Vigilant is on its way. Both of these are air-portable and with the aid of the Wombat our anti-tank defences will be very much more efficient.

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  With regard to the heavier equipment, the new armoured personnel carrier and the 105mm self-propelled field gun are on trial in the field and the reports I am getting are encouraging.
  As hon. Members know, the Chieftain tank is also in the final stages of very rigorous trials. There have not unnaturally been some teething troubles. We still have to overcome some of these, but this tank is undoubtedly going to be a world beater and the effect of all this new equipment will be increased all-round speed and mobility for the Army.
  Mr. George Wigg: Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us just how long the 25-pounder will remain in service in the Army?
  Mr. Profumo: I cannot say how long the 25-pounder will remain in service. It is a very good weapon and it will have to stay in service for probably a considerable time. I was trying to say how this new generation will be coming along. There will be a day when we shall outstrip the 25-pounder. I know that the hon. Gentleman realises its present value.
  The "fire brigade" concept is of prime importance these days in two of the Army's chief tasks—preventing war and operations of mercy. As the Memorandum demonstrates, the Army has not been found wanting in the many emergencies which have arisen in the past six years. To test our ability to move quickly and to operate in all kinds of conditions, we carried out last year an ambitious programme of exercises, including for the first time one in Canada. I am grateful to the Canadian Government for agreeing that a battalion group should train there again this summer. We have also tried to expand our programme of overseas training in other places. The scope is sometimes limited by political considerations and sometimes it is because our forces are wanted for operations of one kind or another. However, with the first-class co-operation we get from the Royal Air Force, we shall keep this sort of training going at the highest possible pitch.
  While I am mentioning air transport, I should call the Committee's attention to the considerable increase in air trooping which is taking place, and which, incidentally, will lead to a saving in
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  money. Early last week I saw off from London Airport the 2nd Battalion Scots Guards, who were the first battalion to move, with families, from the United Kingdom to an overseas station by air. This revolution in travel has reduced the proportion of the Army in the pipeline at any one time to a striking degree.
  It was always supposed that troops could not be committed to operations in conditions of great heat or humidity unless they had been previously conditioned in the particular theatre concerned. Kuwait has shown us that troops can, when they are properly trained, be flown out direct from the United Kingdom and that even the oppressive temperature of the Persian Gulf can be offset. This is a factor of considerable importance in our new strategy.
  Before air transport made movement to distant theatres a matter of hours rather than weeks, the Army needed to be spread out all over the globe. Today, air transport and strategic stockpiles make it possible—and sometimes more economical—for the Army to carry out its tasks without, as in the past, necessarily having to tie up permanently large static forces all over the globe. Indeed, the whole idea of permanent presence can sometimes be replaced by what I would call the "turnover presence". I am not suggesting that we should ever aim at a sit-at-home Army. This would be quite wrong. What I do mean is that we can now have greater flexibility of action and, even though some of our traditional overseas bases may not be available to us for ever we can still carry out our rôle.
  There has probably never been a time in our history when Britain's international commitments have been more varied. This means that the Armed Services must be able to operate with the greatest flexibility and the closest co-operation. My right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence has pointed to further developments in the field on inter-Service activities. As far as the Army is concerned, we are eager to develop this and to co-operate with our sister Services to the greatest possible extent. For effective co-operation, the first essential is to keep the Army correctly organised with the right deployment, that is to say, the right number of units in the right places with the correct

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  administrative backing for the particular job in hand. This is a continuing task, because organisation is a thing that can never stand still.
  The new Defence White Paper makes it perfectly plain that the next five years will see further changes in our commitments and deployment. The very thought of this is, not unnaturally, causing some uneasiness in what are known as the military circles, so let me say quite plainly and clearly that there will be no further large-scale reorganisation of the Army like there was in 1957. It may be that when all the staff tables have been revised, in the course of the next few months, our manpower requirements will be a little different from the previous ones, but we know enough already for me to be able to say that the variation will not be large. Nor will there be a serious redundancy of officers and men as there was in 1957. Some adjustment of strength in certain ranks may well be needed, but when I have worked out the details, I will let the House know.
  Our immediate task is to go flat out with our recruiting campaign—past the 165,000 signpost and upwards. We still have to work to prove that we can get all the men we need in peace time under conditions of full employment. At all events, we cannot afford to slacken our recruiting endeavours in the foreseeable future. As my right hon. Friend, the Minister of Defence, has said, the commitments which are set out in the Defence White Paper require further study before any final manpower ceilings can be determined. This, of course, also entails a review of the Brigade of Gurkhas. We shall now start discussions with the Government of Nepal, and all those concerned with the brigade, whose distinguished record of service to the British Crown is so outstanding and who we trust will continue to fulfil an important rôle in meeting our commitments. I am looking forward very much to the privilege of going to Lyneham airfield tomorrow to meet the advance party of the Gurkha contingent which is, as hon. Members know, arriving to join our Strategic Reserve.
  When the Services are all striving to increase the flexibility of their organisations, it is sometimes said that the
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  Army's regimental system, and, in particular, the regimental system of the infantry, stands in the way of change. This has led me in the last year to have a good look at our infantry system. Hon. Members will recall that in 1957 infantry regiments of the line were grouped into brigades of infantry, each containing three or four regiments. Within these brigades senior officers, warrant officers and N.C.O.s are interpostable. Each brigade has one training depot for all its regiments, and the sense of identity is fostered by all ranks wearing a brigade, rather than a regimental, cap badge.
  I have found that the move over from the regimental to the brigade system has, on the whole, been going very well, and I think that many of the critics of our infantry arrangements do not appreciate how far their criticism is aimed at a system which has already been largely transformed. On the other hand, if there are any more tangible benefits to be derived from a transition to what is sometimes called the large regiment system, we cannot afford to ignore them. I believe that the time has come to examine this problem in more detail and to consult fully all those concerned.
  Mr. Wigg: This is a very important statement indeed. The right hon. Gentleman has slurred over it a bit. Would he mind telling us what he means?
  Mr. Profumo: That is exactly what I mean. The hon. Gentleman knows very well the system to which I am referring. What I am saying is that we must examine whether the time has come when we ought to move further towards large infantry regiments. If there are any tangible advantages in this from the point of view of recruiting and flexibility, then I think that we must study the matter very carefully.
  All I am telling the Committee now is that I am proposing to start studying very carefully whether something of this sort should happen. I make no apology for saying that if we decide to go any further we must fully consult all those concerned. I say no more than that, but I thought it right to show the direction in which my mind is turning.
  The new and smaller all-Regular Army demands a development of its counterpart—the shadow forces—the reserves—or as I like to call them, the "Citizen

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  Army". Although our Regular forces will continue to be constituted on lines which will enable them to meet our known commitments, we must have stand-by plans for boosting the Army in times of tension or limited war from resources which can be easily called upon from civilian life.
  During the passage of the Army Reserve Bill through the House, I have indicated to hon. Members that the creation of the new Territorial Army Emergency Reserve is for this purpose. We shall start recruiting this as soon as we can after the Bill becomes law, and I am very grateful to all in the Territorial Army organisation for their energetic support. If this force achieves its object, it should be able to provide at any given moment not only extra fighting men, but also a number of skilled specialists to bring Army units up to their wartime strength. I have spoken, in particular, about the shortage of doctors. This is a good example. To help with our problems, we shall take as many doctors into the "Ever-readies" as we can get, including women doctors. In spite of the obvious difficulties, I hope that it may be possible in large practices that arrangements can be made for at least one doctor to join this important reserve.
  We are no less short of nurses. The Territorial Army itself is open to the Queen Alexandra's Royal Army Nursing Corps, so I am arranging that there shall be an establishment for Q.A.R.A.N.C.s in the "Ever-readies". They will get a slightly smaller bounty than the men, but I believe that we may well get a considerable response from women who, for one reason, or another do not want to make nursing in the Army a career, but who are none the less prepared to volunteer to be called up for six months, if necessary, in return for a considerable financial reward. Anyway, let us see.
  I have told the Committee that we are at present enaged in a review of the other elements of our present reserves, in order that we can be sure that they are all properly geared to modern requirements. This examination obviously had to hold fire until my right hon. Friend's assessment of the new strategy. Now, as soon as we can, we shall go ahead with this work.
  Mr. R. T. Paget: Did I hear the right hon. Gentleman aright
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  when he said that he was bringing into the "Ever-readies" reserve nurses upon the basis of a smaller bounty? Does the Bill give him any power to do so?
  Mr. Profumo: The Bill does not give me any power to pay bounties at all. It merely gives power to raise the number of people for this reserve. I do not have to have power to pay bounties. I merely have to have from the House of Commons the power to have a ceiling for the reserve.
  As I told the House when we were discussing the Bill, within the ceiling I shall try to vary the type of people in the "Ever-readies" to suit the requirements of the Army. I was merely telling the Committee that I proposed to have an element of the Q.A.R.A.N.C.s in it to see how it goes. Their bounty will be slightly less. I did not want them to think that they would get the same. It will be only slightly less than the bounty for the men, but it will be less.
  On this sort of occasion we rightly spend a great deal of our time talking about the rank and file of the Army—about pay, the conditions and the way of life of the ordinary soldier.
  Mr. Wigg: When the right hon. Gentleman says that he will give a slightly less bounty to the Q.A.R.A.N.C.s, does it mean that although the members of Q.A.R.A.N.C. are officers they will get a smaller bounty than the other ranks?
  Mr. Profumo: I am merely telling the Committee that it does mean that, because there is a differential between men and women still. I would rather not go into the question of equal pay. However, this is in accordance with present standards. I mentioned it merely because I did not want the women to think that they would get the same as the men. They will get a jolly good whack. [Laughter.] Perhaps I had better say that they will get a fairly good bounty, but it will not be quite the same as that for the men.
  Although we spend a great deal of our time on these occasions considering the rank and file of the Army—and rightly so—let us never lose sight of the fact that the efficiency of an Army depends on the way in which it is led, and this, in turn, depends on the quality and the inspiration of its officers and senior

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  N.C.O.s. I have so often noticed, as, I am sure, other Members will have, that units with the highest discipline frequently have the best morale and the most spirit. One always finds that these conditions are combined with good officers and first-class N.C.O.s.
  We are now filling practically all our vacancies at Sandhurst and all of them at Welbeck. This means that a good deal more acceptable candidates are coming forward. As the Committee knows, most of the Welbeck boys go to the technical corps, and they are proving a most valuable asset. Although we have not been getting as many university graduates as I should like, I am glad to say that last year we got over twice as many as in 1960, and I think that we have a good chance of doing better still in 1962.
  The recruitment of officers these days presents new and interesting problems. Family traditions are no longer as strong as they used to be. Gone are the days when families were so large that, automatically, one son went into the Army. If, therefore, we are to continue to attract the right sort of officer material we have to be able to give a guarantee to enterprising young men not only of a full life of service but also of professional expectations which are equivalent to those which they can get in other walks of life.
  I am persuaded that the part which is played by staff training in the career of an officer requires adjustment and clarification. I do not believe that the present system is entirely in tune with modern requirements. Post-war social changes have caused a basic alteration in the make-up of the regimental officer. In the old days many officers used to join the Army for a period of agreeable occupation. The height of their ambition was to command their regiment.
  There can be no finer goal for a professional soldier, and I believe that every good young officer still cherishes this ambition, but it is perfectly clear that nowadays a large number of them hope to continue beyond that point. They want to make the Army their life, and they aspire at least to the rank of colonel or brigadier. These days, that is not, after all, out of tune with modern trends.
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  As social standards increase, so, quite rightly, does ambition.
  As things are now, every young officer today believes that the Staff College is an absolute "must" if he is to get anywhere and if he is to have any chance of reaching higher rank in the Army. The danger is that, unless we take some action, good young officers who, for one reason or another, cannot get to the Staff College may well turn in their jobs and seek fame and fortune elsewhere.
  Training at the Staff College must, of course, continue to play a vital rôle in the officer career structure, but my colleagues and I have come to the conclusion that there is room for alterations. To begin with, I do not think that it is widely enough known that we recently decided that 25 per cent. of second grade staff appointments should be filled by non-staff trained officers. This in itself is a very considerable change of emphasis, but we would be prepared to go further if at any time circumstances should warrant it. We would be prepared to increase up to 30 per cent., if necessary, the proportion of second grade Staff appointments to be filled by officers who have not qualified at the Staff College.
  Our aim is to ensure that as many officers as possible who qualify at the Staff College examination but who are not selected to attend a course are given opportunities to compete for first grade staff appointments after they have proved a success in third and second grade jobs. We are proposing that such officers should be awarded a new symbol. We are going to call it "s.q.", meaning "staff qualified". They will then have good chances of promotion to lieutenant-colonel on the staff as well as in command. After that, if they show continued prowess, they will be eligible for selection in competition for higher rank still. We are also going to tighten up the procedure for recommending officers for Staff College training.
  There is one further aspect of this which, I think, needs alteration. As things are, an officer can have three shots at getting to the Staff College, and so all-important is it to him that he may well swot for examination after examination from the age of 26 for the next four years. This is a large chunk out

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  of his regimental career and diverts his time and attention for far too long a period from real soldiering at a most important stage of his career. I therefore propose to change this system to shorten the period of strain. Henceforth, every officer will have only two chances over a period of three years. I hope that hon. Members and officers throughout the Army will find these changes helpful and in line with the requirements of the day.
  I have tried to give the Committee an account of the Army as it is and of our plans for the all-Regular Army. I have not said much about the operational side, because my right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence dealt with this only the other day. However, I know that there are those who ask: is the Army doing its job properly and can it meet its future commitments? Surely, its peacetime achievements can be regarded as a reasonable indication of an army's wartime capabilities. Let us, then, just have a glance for a minute or two at what the Army is doing today all over the world.
  First, as we have for over a decade now, we are providing a strong contribution to the N.A.T.O. ground forces defending Western Europe. B.A.O.R. is the strongest fighting force which the British Army has ever deployed continuously in peacetime. Although it is often overlooked, the problem of reinforcing Germany is today no more difficult than that of moving troops from England to Scotland or vice versa. With arms and vehicles ready for them on the Continent there is no question even of a sea passage for our reinforcements. They can fly over in a matter of hours.
  This is not just a paper plan, either. As my right hon. Friend announced during the defence debate, we are to put this to the test in September. It will be linked with N.A.T.O.'s autumn exercise. The first phase will be a desk scheme and will not involve us in the movement of any troops at all, but during the weekend of 15th September to 16th September nearly all units of the Territorial Army will test out the first 48 hours of their mobilisation processes. This, of course, will not involve any special call-up. The troops concerned will all be volunteers and will merely be
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  using a normal weekend's training period for this novel and interesting task.
  During the same period T.A. and the Army Emergency Reserve units, in all about 2,000 men of those who are destined to move to B.A.O.R. at such a juncture as this, will actually concentrate and fly over to B.A.O.R. We have arranged that this should take place for those units concerned which will anyway be doing their annual fortnight's camp at that period. When they get to Germany and have completed this exercise then they will do their normal annual camp there this year instead of in one of the more normal, conventional places in this country. This is in line with what I remember well a number of hon. Members asked about when they asked what would happen this year.
  The rest of the exercise will be concerned with the Civil Defence aspect in this country, and during the ensuing weekends some reserve Signal units may be brought into play.
  I hope that this realistic and imaginative scheme will demonstrate our ability to react with our allies in N.A.T.O. in accordance with our Treaty obligations.
  Outside Europe, the Army is prepared to intervene to keep the peace in all parts of the world where our interests or those of our allies are directly involved, and we have proved our ability in Kuwait. It has been a most heartening thing to the Army as a whole that the strategic military concept on which we have been working for the last five years has been shown to work in practice. From the staff point of view, internal security operations in far-flung territories pose problems just as difficult as operations involving more serious fighting. The Army has had to undertake tasks of this sort in trouble spots as widely separated as British Guiana, the Cameroons and Zanzibar.
  What does not happen is not, of course, news, but in so far as the Army is contributing to the maintenance of peace by its presence in territories in four different continents it is rendering just that service which the country expects of it. And so it has been in carrying out its mercy operations in British Honduras, Kenya and Hamburg. These are extremely exacting tasks, and I think the Army deserves high praise for what it has done in all these spheres.

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  As the effects of our new strategy begin to release more troops from fixed commitments overseas, and as our Regular Army builds up, so our commitments will become easier to meet. Success or failure in all this depends on being able to continue to attract a stream of high quality men and women, both officers and other ranks.
  What is likely to be the magnet for drawing the young of tomorrow into the Army? Pay and conditions—yes, these play their part; but they are not the be all and end all, and we should delude ourselves if we thought they were. I am convinced that the one thing which, above all others, attracts men into the Army and, when they are there, persuades them to extend their service and to encourage others to join, is the knowledge that there is for them a worthwhile job in a well-run and well-led organisation. I venture to think also, from what I have seen in the course of visits to units during the last year, that, although there is still a great deal to be done, a sense of progress and well-being is growing.
  I certainly do not minimise the very high cost of a modern all-Regular Army, but I can assure the Committee that I am satisfied that the money it is being asked to vote for Army purposes today represents, in the year in which we revert to an all-Regular Army, a better investment for the nation than it has done for many years past.
  4.40 p.m.
  Mr. R. T. Paget: I am glad that the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for War chose as the theme of his speech this year an all-Regular Army. I will try to follow that theme too and, as far as I can, look at what that Army is committed to do.
  The first paragraph of the Memorandum on Army Estimates says:
  "… the British Army has three major rôles: to assist the defence of this country and the Commonwealth, to fulfil our treaty obligations, and to maintain internal security in those of our territories which remain dependent on us."
  Which are these treaty obligations? One has only to look at our first and most important treaty, which is the North Atlantic Treaty, to see that we are not performing our obligations. We are not even performing our reduced obligations.
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  We are several thousand below that, and to ask for a reduction has been a pretty humiliating thing for us to have to do. After all, as they knew that they would not get the contribution from us, our allies were not in a good position to refuse our application. To ask for a reduction of what we undertook for this century in the Brussels Treaty, and to ask for it at the very time when our partners were increasing their performance and were not only up to but above their Brussels commitments, has been, as I have said, a pretty humiliating thing.
  I therefore find the following sentence in paragraph 3 of the Memorandum a little curious:
  "The build-up of the Regular Army is going well"—
  It certainly is. I should have thought that the right hon. Gentleman's recruiting has exceeded his own expectations. It has certainly greatly exceeded the expectations of his critics. The paragraph continues:
  "and we believe we can fulfil our normal peacetime commitments without further recourse to National Service. Meanwhile, tension in Europe has coincided with the period of transition to an all-regular force just when the Army is approaching its lowest strength."
  I find that phrase somewhat odd. As to the rest of the world, it would be hard to imagine that the planners of 1957 foresaw anything better than the present situation.
  I observed the other day that for the first time since the war we had nobody anywhere on active service. Apparently that was taken as a great tribute by the Government, but we should remember where we had men on active service—in Suez—and how they had to stop being on active service. We should remember that they were on active service in Cyprus, from where we said that we would "never" go and, saying that we would "ne're consent, consented", and they ceased to be on active service.
  One could go on with the list. It is something which it is odd to find the Conservative Party swanking about. Nevertheless, the result is that the Government could hardly have a more favourable situation than they have now. In spite of that favourable situation they have made a call-up, and it is a very temporary call-up because they run out of the possibilities of it by 1966. They have made it on the ground that

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  there is an exceptional strain in Europe. Does that mean that they will default even further from their N.A.T.O. commitments and that they have plans to do so? It is difficult to explain this in any other terms, but I most profoundly hope that it is not true.
  It seems to me that we live in Europe. We have part-time commitments round the world, but these are temporary things in areas which are no longer ours. India will have to look after her continent and her commitments. We provide her with help, as we provide the other new nations of Asia and Africa, but our continent, where we live and where this really matters, is Europe. This is our first priority. Do we want to hand over the control and protection of that area to a German Army? If we fall down on our commitments and provide instead of four divisions merely seven brigade groups, or scarcely more than half, the northern area command has passed to the Germans. The effective Army of Europe has become progressively a German Army. That, from a political point of view alone, is something which we should not now accept.
  The other great factor is that unless we provide—and, of course, we cannot do the whole thing—the leadership, which at least brings us to our treaty obligations, we are terrifyingly committed to an atomic defence which in terms, and even if it were confined, would involve the destruction of Germany. Where we find ourselves committed to a form of defence which would destroy the land of the only people who are providing a really effective army, the real horror of the situation becomes appallingly alarming—with the pressure on and the temptation for the Germans, faced with that kind of destruction, to yield. I cannot emphasise too highly the real obligation we have to build up that commitment and the total priority which that commitment should have over all others.
  A pamphlet is about to be published of which I received an advance copy today. It is called A challenge to Leadership. It was prepared for the Army League by a Committee, under the chairmanship of General Gale, which included a number of hon. Members and other distinguished and experienced
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  people. The way the Committee puts this point is this:
  "The calls on the Array have proved less than might have been anticipated in 1957. But in spite of this fact and also that at the moment we are not being required to provide men for active service anywhere in the world, whilst the British Army of the Rhine has fallen to little more than half the force which we were, and are, obliged to maintain under the Brussels Treaty; the fact remains that some 200,000 to 220,000 men are required to fulfil the commitments at present allocated to the Army. This gap may be met in a variety of ways: it may be simply papered over by providing grossly under-strength units with all the demoralising consequences that result"—
  that is what is being done at present—
  "it may be met by re-allocating commitments to the other Services; it may be met by the re-introduction of conscription; or it may be met by finding new sources of recruits either in the Commonwealth or in Europe. If we are to have a volunteer Army, and this is the wish of all parties in the State, it may be necessary to resort to the latter two methods."
  That is a paragraph with which I wholly agree. I should therefore like to consider how, perhaps, we may reallocate our commitments.
  As I have said, I would put the N.A.T.O. priority without question first, and I would put it certainly not at 51,000–52,000, nor at 55,000, men, but at something nearer 80,000. How would one reallocate? At the moment, spread around the world in the various outposts we have 40,000 men. The first place I would look at is Hong Kong. We had words about this at Question Time. We have there three regiments of artillery, amongst other things. When one of my hon. Friends asked the Minister what these were wanted for in view of the statement by the Minister of Defence that our garrison at Hong Kong was for internal security, the right hon. Gentleman replied. "We want a credible deterrent, or we shall have a Chinese take-over bid." Three artillery regiments as a credible deterrent—
  Mr. Profumo: The hon. and learned Member is not being quite fair. I did not say that three artillery regiments were a credible deterrent. I explained the sum total of our forces there plus the reserves which we regard as necessary as a credible deterrent to avoid a possible take-over bid.
  Mr. Paget: Three regiments of artillery, a squadron of tanks and four

  623
  battalions of infantry—a credible deterrent to the Chinese armies. The right hon. Gentleman must have a folie de grandeur and think that he is Courtaulds.
  Let us get this straight. We cannot defend Hong Kong—of course we cannot. It does not need a Chinese takeover bid. It needs the Chinese turning off the taps—they control the water—or even turning off the trade. What is the point of our being there if they do that? We are in Hong Kong because it pays China for us to be there. It pays us to be there only so long as it pays China. It is a matter of mutual convenience. The idea of preparing a military defence is, frankly, absurd.
  We do, however, have to provide for internal security. Even though it may be against Chinese interests to turn us out, although she might not wish to turn us out, if there were riots in Hong Kong which we could not control or if, above all, the Kuomintang element in Hong Kong rioted and seized control, a situation would be created which, by reason of face, which is important to that part of the world, might make the Chinese come in although they did not really want to. One is, therefore, faced with a problem of internal security and nothing else.
  I have ventured to say that that is a job which can be looked after by sailors. I understand that that has brought formidable criticism from my hon. Friend the Member for Dudley (Mr. Wigg).
  Mr. Wigg: My hon. and learned Friend will have to wait a little to find the full weight of the criticism. In the meantime, if he is working out his order of battle and criticises the Government for having this incredible deterrent—
  Mr. Paget: Credible deterrent.
  Mr. Wigg: —how does he justify his silence when the Labour Government put in two brigades?
  Mr. Profumo: Hear, hear.
  Mr. Paget: I do not know the silence to which my hon. Friend refers. There were few more vigorous critics of my Government's defence policy than I, as my hon. Friend knows very well.
  Mr. Wigg: If, on the other hand, my hon. and learned Friend pours scorn on
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  three regiments of artillery, it is a fact that Lord Alexander, as Minister of Defence, explained the position over and over again and it was accepted by the Labour Party. My hon. and learned Friend needs also to remember that the only specific commitment which this country has that can be fairly laid at the door of the Labour Government is Hong Kong, because we went back there when we need not have done so.
  Mr. Paget: It may also be recollected that we had more than twice the size of Army that we have now, so that these things were a good deal easier then. I have had great respect for my hon. Friend's opinion ever since he told me that Tudor Minstrel could not win the Derby. Since then, I have had great respect for any views which my hon. Friend has expressed.
  Mr. Wigg: My hon. and learned Friend might as well tell the rest of the story. I laid my hon. and learned Friend Tudor Minstrel and I backed the winner.
  Mr. Paget: My hon. Friend did all those things, and with my money.
  The Chairman: The subject of the debate is the Army Estimates.
  Mr. Paget: I was only indicating, Sir William, that I have had the deepest respect for my hon. Friend's opinion on all subjects from then onwards.
  On the other hand, I cannot entirely fall in with what, I believe, is my hon. Friend's view about my Service, concerning its capacity to deal with shore disturbances. My hon. Friend has, I think, a sort of feeling that we are a wild, drunken crowd who riot when on shore and have to employ a corps of marines to keep us locked up on board ship. That is no longer, however it might be historically, the truth.
  Having done some of it with them, I believe that sailors are particularly good at dealing with civil disturbance and that if we put some sailors—we have plenty of them—in naval barracks and kept some of our ships in Hong Kong harbour we could certainly at any critical time, such as at times of feast when things are apt to get awkward, have a quite sufficient naval backing to the police.

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  I have heard it said that in order to support the civil power it is necessary to have tanks. I am not prepared to laugh about that, because it may well be that in Hong Kong, where psychology plays an important part, tanks would have the same sort of psychological effect as mounted police have in London. But for that sort of work we do not need the latest type of tank, or the full training necessary for an armoured unit. If a tank has to roll up the street for this purpose, I am quite certain that sailors, who are pretty adaptable people, could handle it—[Laughter.]—certainly. They could handle it quite easily if that sort of job had to be done. As the Army League pamphlet so accurately says, if we are to fulfil our commitments in Europe, we have to reallocate our commitments, and here is a commitment which the Navy could undertake perfectly well.
  Next we come to Singapore, which is really a garrison masquerading as a base. As Singapore becomes part of Greater Malaysia, it will not be available in connection with S.E.A.T.O. commitments. However, it does not require that to happen because Singapore is entirely dependent on a local labour force; and in that force I am told that at the lowest estimate there are 5,000 dedicated Chinese Communists and that it is quite impossible to identify which is which. I do not know how we can work, how we can perform treaty obligations directed primarily against the Chinese, with that sort of set-up. In any event, I do not believe that we shall be there for very much longer. Malaya has been developing her own army, and we shall not have to be there for internal security reasons. In relation to these new emergent countries, the sooner that sort of thing happens the better.
  There are other areas where our forces are spread around, for example, Aden. That is one base which has been expanded to cover the Gulf and to cover our oil supplies. From a strategic point of view, I find it a little difficult to follow the argument about oil. If we are to have a nuclear war, the statement that our capacity to use oil will be somewhat reduced might be regarded as the understatement of the century. On the other hand, if we are simply to continue a cold war, all experience would seem to
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  show that the need of the Middle East to sell oil to us greatly exceeds our need to buy it. There are any amount of sources available and nearly all the oilfields of the world are over-producing. So, from our point of view, I think it highly important that as these new nations emerge we should go; but not too quickly. We must give them time—protection till they can look after them selves and so we have to have something in Aden.
  Is there any reason why Gurkha units should not serve at Aden? They should be a great deal better there than at Singapore or Hong Kong, because their homeland, like Tibet, borders on China; and if there are difficulties with China, involving Singapore and Hong Kong, the Gurkhas might find themselves in a very awkard situation. If it is at all practicable, I would have thought it desirable to use the Gurkhas in areas where they were not likely to come up against the Chinese. There may be objections to that, I do not know. But I should consider that Aden is an area where Gurkhas might be extremely useful.
  Coming back to the Mediterranean, we have to consider Libya, where we maintain some forces, largely, I suppose, to assist the régime of King Idris. I do not criticise that as a thing to do. If we are to have mobile forces, that is a very convenient exercise ground for them. Here again is a commitment which Marine could undertake just as well. I cannot see why the Navy and the Air Force—of course, it could not be done all at once—should not take over the responsibility for our base areas. That, in turn, would be only temporary, until the new emergent nations took charge of their own areas.
  That alone would enable us to fulfil our treaty obligations in the N.A.T.O. area, which seems to me vastly the most important. But if this means—apart from attachments which I hope will be frequent with the developing armies of the new nations—that the Army does its soldiering either in Germany or at home, a great deal more will have to be done to make Germany an attractive place in which to soldier. We shall have to do a great deal more to develop sport and other facilities there.
  The next major point with which I wish to deal concerns equipment. This

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  document has been described as the "Spy in the Sky" Estimate. When we get year after year a list of the same weapons one wonders how many of these statements there will be. There is the Malkara, the Wombat and the Vigilant. Year after year they are said to be coming but they never seem to arrive. If a description is required I should think that "Pie in the Sky" would have been more appropriate, so far as equipment is concerned.
  Perhaps the most remarkable piece of equipment for which we are still waiting is the infra-red equipment. The German Army was equipped with this in the last war. German lorries had infrared lights and screens. All the German divisions were equipped with sniping rifles with infra-red sights. All this existed in the Germany Army in the last war, and now at last it is being produced here as a novelty.
  Now we come to signals. There was the old 19 set which was used in wartime and cost £100. It had a range of 10 miles. Now we have a replacement, the C.13, which costs £750. It is bigger and rather heavier and has a slightly longer range. There is a different waveband. The remarkable thing is that although these sets are still being delivered at this high cost none is transistorised, or none has a transistor, if hon. Members prefer it that way. Transistors have come and they are in all civilian equipment. They are lighter, cheaper, cheaper in use of electricity, and far more efficient. It takes the Army about ten times as long to develop a transistor set as it takes a civilian force such as the police to develop one. The police have it, but not the Army.
  One may say that on a vehicle which makes its own electricity this is not so important, but it is all-important on the man-borne set, the "walkie-talkie". The Army has not even got it there. I am told by the manufacturers that transistorised sets can be produced for about half what is paid for the old sets. They will be more efficient and certainly not more than a third of the weight. Perhaps we shall hear more about this in the Government reply. We have probably to wait for another two years at least before men who carry these instruments on their backs will be equipped with transistorised sets. We must try
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  to get some method in our electronic age which will ensure that equipment for the Army is not obsolete before it is used. These C.13s, non-transistorised, communications are being delivered now at very high cost. They are obsolete, but delivery is still going on. I take that simply as an example.
  So much for equipment. My final point essentially concerns the circumstances of a volunteer Army in the circumstances of full employment in which men have a choice of a job. The first revolutionary novelty which has got to be introduced in dealing with a volunteer Army in those circumstances is honesty. Never has our Army been treated with honesty. At present our pensioners are being paid in bad money—in depreciated currency. It is no excuse to say that that can happen to anyone. The employer, the Government, whose currency it is, when taking the service of men like these ought to stand by their currency and put it up. This was noted very much in the Grigg Report. That Report said, with complete truth, that the best commissioned and non-commissioned ranks come from military families. When they are defrauded—and it is defrauding to pay a pension with bad money—the father and the uncle, for all the recruiting on television—in the places where the best recruits come from, you are making anti-recruiting officers. That is enormously important, and I emphasise it. It is even worse in the case of the widowed mother or aunt in such families.
  I have a whole list of letters from widows of distinguished officers who are now drawing National Assistance. Even more tragic, perhaps, is the case of those who are not drawing National Assistance. There is a lady aged 80, the widow of a major, whose total income is £127 a year. She writes:
  "I have no other income. I am living alone and have to support myself."
  Another widow of a major is aged 75. She writes:
  "I avoided applying for National Assistance by working hard, but my health has broken down. I was laid up for a year and am still crippled and infirm. I must now swallow my pride and apply for National Assistance."
  Another, aged 66, the widow of a lieutenant-colonel, has a total income from all sources of £162. She wrote:
  "With my husband's rank and good service I would rather starve than go on National

  629
  Assistance. I have severe arthritis in both legs and am also a diabetic. I must go for treatment every six months. I am only a ranker's widow and have no means."
  What do we do for these people to whom we have honourable commitments?
  Even from the point of view of getting recruits this is crazy, but, with this record behind the Government, in all conscience, is it not more than important that they should be honest now? Yet at this very time when the Government are so pleased with their recruiting record and achievement they are bilking on the terms on which they recruited these men. They are, in fact, picking the pockets of the Forces to the tune of about £9 million. To my mind, morals apart, that is a crazy thing to do. If we are to have a volunteer Army the atmosphere of honesty must be created around it. That was the leading factor in the Grigg Report. It said that what was killing recruiting was depreciation of the currency. Unless both as to pension and as to pay we guard against that we shall not get the men. The Government accepted that Report. This is a passage from the Report and its recommendation. In paragraph 251 it said:
  "At present, the pay of both officers and other ranks bears a reasonable relationship to that outside; it does not constitute a deterrent to recruitment… It is, however, essential that inflation should not be allowed to eat away the real value of Service emoluments, and we therefore recommend:—
  (i) that there should be an automatic biennial review of pay which should take into account movements in civilian earnings over a range of occupations to be determined by agreement between the Treasury and the Service Departments. The first review should be carried out …".
  In Cmnd. Paper 570 it is stated:
  "The Government agree that Service pay and pension should be reviewed regularly at intervals of not more than two years."
  There has been a review and a recommendation made on an agreed basis of between 7 per cent. and 8 per cent., with 5 per cent. for officers. Half of that is being bilked for one year. It is no use saying that all that was agreed was to review and that the Government did not agree to pay. That will not do. I know many commercial contracts which have the condition that the prices shall be reviewed at stated dates in accordance with the wage levels and various things. What does the Minister think a judge
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  would say to the argument, "Certainly we agreed to review, but we did not agree to pay the new prices." One would be laughed out of court. No one who is not a judge in his own cause could put forward such a contention.
  I beg the right hon. Gentleman to return to the Cabinet and say "This will not do". After all, the Minister of Defence said that he was the trade union representative of the Forces. I do not know if he was brought up in the Electrical Trades Union, but in non-Communist unions he would know that trade unionists are required to consult their members. Has the right hon. Gentleman consulted his members? The right hon. Gentleman used the words "The Forces would not wish"—but has he asked them? Has he asked the privates if they wish to contribute £20 if they are married or £13 if they are unmarried? What about the sergeant-major? Does he wish to contribute £50?—this in a year when Surtax has been cut. Really!
  The point is that it is not the Government's money. It belongs to the Forces. The Government made this bargain and, as the Minister of Defence said, the troops are in a special position. They are different even from the civil servants, for they are not in a position to throw up their contracts. I do not suppose we can take it that the right hon. Gentleman is proposing to offer anyone who does not like the new terms of pay—for which he did not bargain—a free discharge. These men entered the Army on certain terms, but those terms are being dishonoured unilaterally.
  The Government cannot run a volunteer Army in a fully employed society if they behave dishonestly with those they engage. I urge the right hon. Gentleman with all my power—and I believe that he should take it even to the point of resignation if necessary—to tell the Cabinet how on television and elsewhere throughout the country he has been drumming up recruits very successfully—and I take my hat off to him for the way he has been doing this—offering them terms and using every means available to get recruits. Let him ask the Cabinet if, after doing that, he is to bilk on his offer. I do not think the Cabinet would accept his resignation, but he should nevertheless offer it. I

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  beg him to do that service for the Army, because if this principle of a volunteer Army is to be maintained the men must be treated honestly. The terms on which they enlist must be honoured.
  5.24 p.m.
  Sir Fitzroy Maclean: The hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget) said that in the past he had been one of the severest critics of his own party's defence policy. I can confirm that, for I have listened to many constructive and interesting speeches he has made.
  It is a pity that he does not turn his very considerable talents towards helping his party evolve a defence policy which makes a little more sense than the one he has just enunciated. The hon. and learned Gentleman made great play with the word "honesty". I am sure that he meant what he said, but, really, if he looks at the arithmetic of his speech he will realise that he should not talk too much about arithmetical honesty. He spoke of 80,000 men in Europe, and no one would be more pleased than I to see 80,000 British troops in Europe, but I shall come to that later. Where I cannot follow the logic of his argument is when he turned, having said nothing about how he intended to get those 80,000 troops, to our overseas commitments.
  I was interested yesterday to hear the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Huyton (Mr. H. Wilson) crying out in alarm at the idea of our cutting down in Hong Kong. Of course, the hon. Gentleman the Member for Dudley (Mr. Wigg) will recall that it was a Labour Government that had two brigades in Hong Kong and gave a firm undertaking to hold on to Hong Kong. I think that was said in 1949. But now the hon. and learned Member for Northampton talks airily of reducing our commitments and garrisons all over the world and replacing them by sailors in tanks. When he was asked how he would do that he merely replied, "They will have to if they are told to." If he expects to put sailors—who have been hired to go in ships—into tanks, he will find that he has exactly the same difficulty getting volunteers for the Navy as my right hon.
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  Friend has getting volunteers for the Army.
  Mr. Paget: Would the hon. Gentleman agree that when his Service got tanks they came to us to teach them how to use them?
  Sir F. Maclean: That may be true, but the hon. and learned Gentleman is going back rather a long way. If a man has gone into the Navy because he likes ships or into the R.A.F. because he likes aeroplanes, I do not know what he will say if he suddenly finds himself operating tanks in peacetime.
  But what about the phrase: "They will have to if they are told to"? We must remember that we are talking about volunteers. The hon. and learned Member rightly said that the issue in Hong Kong, in Singapore—where he talked about 5,000 dedicated Communists—was largely psychological, and I agree with him. If what he has in mind is the wholesale withdrawal from our overseas garrisons, he will find that the psychology will work the other way and that absence will have the opposite effect to presence, namely, to encourage our enemies and discourage our friends. I do not think that whether he has sailors in tanks or in ships their hovering off the shores of these places will produce the desired effect.
  Since the hon. and learned Gentleman spoke so much about honesty he could have gone into greater detail about exactly what he meant. What about all our overseas commitments? Does he propose that we should leave the Senussi and our other friends all over the world to look after themselves? If so, he should say so. Further, will he get his 80,000 men in Europe, and other men for our overseas commitments, without conscription? In fact, I do not think the word "conscription" came into his speech. He did not give any suggestion for getting that number of troops, and we know that the policy of his party—of which he has been such a strong critic in the past, but of which he is now such a strong upholder—is to abolish conscription, just as it is the policy of the Government.
  Mr. Paget: What I have said for a long time, and not only this year but last year, is that Germany should be the Army's commitment and that we could

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  provide 80,000 troops in Europe out of an Army of 165,000. But as to the world bases, there are over 200,000 personnel in the R.A.F. and in the Royal Navy. I believe that the R.A.F. and Royal Navy can in a quite short time take over these commitments without conscription.
  Sir F. Maclean: If the hon. and learned Gentleman suggests that the way to get round the difficulty of a shortage of manpower in the Army is to use personnel in the Navy and R.A.F. for military purposes in the narrow sense of the word, he will find that that is not the answer and that it will not work. Naturally, in an emergency sailors and the R.A.F. Regiment could be used if no one else is available, but to use them regularly for purposes for which the Army is intended does not make sense.
  I was glad to hear my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for War say that recruiting was going so well and that he would reach and possibly surpass his target. I have always hoped that recruiting would go well, and I always thought—I have said so all along—that there was a very good chance that my right hon. Friend would reach his target. What I quarrel with is his target I was interested to hear him say that recruiting had increased by 80 per cent. recently.
  Mr. Profumo: I said 80 per cent., but I meant 50 per cent. I am glad that my hon. Friend has given me an opportunity to make that correction. The increase over last year is 50 per cent., not 80 per cent.
  Sir F. Maclean: Anyhow, the figure is satisfactory.
  Mr. Wigg: Perhaps we might clear up whether all the other estimates of the Secretary of State are out by 30 per cent., too.
  Sir F. Maclean: When my right hon. Friend announced that the theme of his Estimates speech was to be the new all-volunteer Army which will finally come about, with the help of the Army Reserve Bill, by the end of this year, I thought that it might be useful to review the Government's first five-year plan. When I was younger, it was Generalissimo Stalin who used to have five-year
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  plans, but now we seem to have caught the practice from him. We now find ourselves on the threshold of the second five-year plan.
  I have seen the Defence White Paper described somewhere as an obituary notice of the 1957 policy. I do not think that that is the right description. I wish that it were. If it were the right description, it would have enabled me to vote for the White Paper last night, but, as it was, I was not able to do so.
  With a stubbornness worthy of his predecessor, my right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence says in the White Paper that the 1957 policy was "soundly based". Let us see what is left of it. After five years, let us see what is left of the plan which the Prime Minister announced in 1957 as
  "the most imaginative and constructive statement of military policy made by any great nation since the war."
  He called it "sound", "novel" and "dramatic". I am afraid its effects will be all too dramatic in the long run.
  What are its features? They are an independent British nuclear deterrent, the abolition of National Service, and, finally, cheap mobile streamlined all-Regular nuclear forces.
  That brings me to the Secretary of State's opening remarks about the all-Regular volunteer forces. It is interesting to recall that in April, 1957, the Prime Minister said:
  "… we have no hope of doing without National Service unless we will accept the nuclear armament as the basis of our defence."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 17th April, 1957; Vol. 568, c. 2050.]
  How does that look today? It would not be in order for me to say much about the independent British nuclear deterrent. I have not specialised knowledge nor special information about it, but it seems to me to be barely credible. I say no more and no less than that. I also feel that it will soon be beyond us financially to keep it credible. The Americans are spending on research and development alone a sum 40 per cent. greater than the whole of our defence budget. I do not see how we can hope to keep up with powers which can afford to do that.
  As my right hon. Friend said, the prospects of abolishing National Service

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  seems to be a bit better. In fact, he is at last able to announce it. That is not all. He is able to announce that his target of 165,000 men, which was so unfortunately fixed in 1957, is likely to be reached. One would expect this to be an occasion for rejoicing and self-congratulation on the part of the Government. One would almost expect to hear one of those happy little Americanisms which the Prime Minister goes in for.
  Instead of that, what do we get? We get panic and the Army Reserve Bill. And the reason, of course, is that the target has been wrong all along and that the Army today—this is well known—is well below the minimum strength required to meet even our present commitments, which are certainly no greater than they were in 1957.
  The Secretary of State will, no doubt, tell us that whatever number turns up is exactly the number he has been wanting all along. I suspect that he might have told us that even if he had not been so lucky or so clever and had not reached the figure of 165,000. By the way, what has happened to the figure of 180,000, which seems to have been very conveniently forgotten? We now hear talk of a figure of 170,000 to 175,000.
  I do not know whether my right hon. Friend reads Punch. If so, he will find a very entertaining article in the current number on the speech which the Minister of Defence or the Secretary of State for War will make in 1972 when the British Army has run down to a strength of 650 men. According to the article, he will explain that that is exactly the right strength and will say how mobile the Army is and how very well suited it is to its duties, especially with 75 German divisions to look after our commitments for us. I do not wish to be rude either to Punch, which is an excellent and wholesome magazine, or to my right hon. Friend, but to become a Punch joke one has to have been very funny for a very long time.
  One of my favourite short stories is called "The Bottle Imp", by Robert Louis Stevenson. It is a story about various characters who had a magic bottle which gave them great power as long as it remained in their possession. But they had to get rid of it before it
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  was too late, otherwise they were eternally damned. The difficulty was to find someone simple-minded enough to pass it on to. The danger became greater as the price of the bottle became lower. The hero eventually got rid of it by selling it for the smallest possible coin to a drunken old sailor, who went reeling off down the road to eternal damnation. The hon. and learned Member for Northampton made great play with being a sailor. I hope that he does not find himself landed with this magic bottle. Meanwhile, I would warn my right hon. Friend to consider getting rid of it or doing something about it before he himself is landed with something very nasty indeed on his hands.
  Now, how about the third item on the 1957 programme—the "cheap, streamlined, all-Regular nuclear forces"? Are they really cheap? One of the great ideas in 1957 was to save money, and a very sensible idea, too. I do not think that anyone will for a moment suggest that that has been achieved. Nor is it likely to be achieved, because everything to do with this new streamlined Army is extremely expensive. Volunteers are extremely expensive, as my right hon. Friend has just been finding out. The equipment, and especially nuclear equipment, is extremely expensive, and, finally, mobility, which is always held up as the answer to everything, costs the most money of all. The cost of a commando carrier is enormous. It is a floating base, the most expensive sort of base of all, and to keep 1,000 men on board a £40 million ship is real luxury for everybody concerned except possibly the men.
  As to the forces being streamlined in the Army which we are to have at the end of the year, I am reminded of what the Prime Minister said in October:
  "Whatever the size of the Army next year, it will not—and I admit it—be properly balanced,"
  He went on to say of B.A.O.R. that it—
  "is not up to strength and cannot be wholly in balance without mobilisation."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 18th October, 1961; Vol. 646, c. 315.]
  Of course, it is common knowledge, and it has been said again and again in our debates this week, that units everywhere are under strength, over-stretched and out-of-balance. Even my hon. Friend the Member for Stroud (Mr. Kershaw), who scarcely ever ventures to criticise any

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  aspect of the Government's defence policy, said that he was disquieted by this.
  Now, the Government have had to have recourse to the Army Reserve Bill in order to fill the gap. That does not make an all-Regular Army, because what we are to have in a great many of the key jobs are men who not only are not Regulars, but who, unless things work out, will be practically untrained, and who will see their units only when an emergency arises, and, if then, only if there is time to get to them. Such, therefore, is the outcome of what we were told was to be—"the most imaginative and constructive statement of military policy … since the war … sound, novel and dramatic".
  There is one final qualification—the word "nuclear". It is true that B.A.O.R. is equipped to fight, not a conventional war, but a nuclear war. The nuclear warheads are, I understand, held by the Americans, but our troops are equipped with tactical nuclear weapons. There I agree with my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Norwood (Sir J. Smyth), Who said he thought that tactical nuclear weapons were "dangerous". He said that they could land one in a situation which one did not want to get into. He agreed there with the chief scientific adviser to the Minister of Defence, Sir Solly Zuckerman, who made it perfectly clear that the transition from tactical nuclear weapons to all-out hot war would be so fast that it is hardly worthy of the name of escalation.
  This, then, is the nuclear armament which the Prime Minister said was to be the basis of our defences—the obsolescent independent British nuclear deterrent and these American-owned tactical nuclear weapons in B.A.O.R. Without a nuclear basis, we were told, there could be no hope of doing without National Service. But in spite of the inadequacy and the danger of our nuclear weapons, and our manifest over-dependence on them, we are somehow managing to do without National Service.
  I do not think that anybody can dispute the failure of the first five-year plan. What about the second five-year plan? It looks to me very much like the first. The Government have, like the Bourbons, forgotten nothing and
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  learned nothing. It seems to me that the policy set out in the White Paper and set out again by my right hon. Friend in his Memorandum to these Estimates, does not face any of the basic problems, any more than does the defence policy of the official Opposition. I do not think that faces any of the basic problems, either.
  In the first place, the Government do not seem to me to face the basic problem that we have either got to reintroduce conscription in a more effective form than the Army Reserve Bill or cut our commitments and reorganise the Army. My right hon. Friend has made it quite clear that he is not going to reorganise the Army, although he had something to say about the system of large regiments. It may be that that will cover a certain amount of reorganisation and disbandment of regiments.
  The Temporary Chairman (Mr. W. R. Williams): Order. I have given the hon. Gentleman latitude, but I think he is exceeding it now. We are dealing with the Army as it is and with the organisation of it now, as I see it.
  Sir F. Maclean: On that point of order, my right hon. Friend discussed at length in his speech the whole question of reorganisation—
  The Temporary Chairman: Order. I ought to make myself clear. I was dealing with the conscription aspect of the hon. Gentleman's speech. In so far as larger regiments are concerned, to which I understand the Minister referred, obviously the hon. Gentleman is entitled to speak about them.
  Sir F. Maclean: I will do my best, Mr. Williams, to keep in order.
  My Sydney Silverman: On a point of order. I ask for guidance, Mr. Williams. It is true that we are dealing with the Army Estimates, but we are dealing with them as part of a general defence plan. I take it that we would not be out of order to say, for instance, that the Army Estimates ought to be reduced because the whole plan is of no value?
  The Temporary Chairman: There is the possibility of an Amendment being moved for a reduction of Vote A and, so far as I know, that will be in order.

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  There is no need for me to say any more in reply to that point of order.
  Sir F. Maclean: I was commenting on the theme which my right hon. Friend enunciated of volunteer all-Regular Forces which would come into being at the end of this year. I should have thought, Mr. Williams, that, if he discussed conscription in that context, it should be open to the rest of us to do so. It certainly was in past years.
  To return for a moment to the subject of reorganisation, it seems to me that the Government are not even facing the basic choice between reintroducing conscription or cutting commitments. Here and there, my right hon. Friend either an-announces, or foreshadows, reductions in our garrisons. I am sorry, for instance, to see that he foreshadows a reduction in our N.A.T.O. contribution. It apears also that a saving will be made in odd garrisons overseas, perhaps a battalion from Hong Kong, perhaps a couple of battalions from Cyprus. But that sort of thing does not face the issue before us any better than the hon. and learned Member for Northampton faced the choice that either there must be conscription or we must cut commitments. What is happening at present seems likely to continue in the future. The Army will stagger along under strength, overstretched and out of balance, as The Times leader put it, "an Army of weak units ".
  Still less, it seems to me, do the Government face the question of our proper rôle, the proper rôle of the British Forces altogether and of the British Army in particular, in Western defence. At present, our strategy, our foreign policy and our Commonwealth policy are all dictated by three things: first, by the number of volunteers obtainable by voluntary recruiting; second, by an arbitrary proportion of 7 per cent. of the gross national product; third, by a hazy idea that it somehow gives us more say to have that status symbol, an independent nuclear deterrent. As a result, we are not playing our proper rôle in the Western Alliance, quite apart from whether we are able to fulfil our commitments or protect our own interests.
  It is common knowledge that this is causing grave dismay to our allies on
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  both sides of the Atlantic. Moreover, by our example we are discouraging other allied countries from playing their part. They are all, with the exception of Canada, which is in a position quite different from ours, prepared to have conscription and to make the necessary effort and sacrifice, and they cannot understand why, if they can do it, we should not do it too. Others have had the same idea as the Prime Minister, the idea of a policy with a nuclear basis—"A bigger bang for a buck"—but by now they have grown out of that. They have seen the weakness of it and the need to have, in addition to an effective Western nuclear deterrent, more conventional forces, what might be called a conventional deterrent. I believe that that is what we can help to provide better than anything else.
  The President of the United States said the other day that to keep the peace one needed not only arms but men. Hon. Members will have read in the newspapers of a certain Major Lawson, a British officer, who with no arms at all did more to produce pacification in the Congo in a very precarious situation than any number of the block-buster bombs which at one time it was proposed to drop on President Tshombe. There is no better pacifier than the British soldier. His qualities for pacification are every bit as good as his fighting qualities, and that is saying a great deal. When hon. Members who hold this view say that more men are needed, they mean that they are not necessarily needed for what are nowadays called imperialist aims but mainly to keep the peace and to help our friends, not to hang on in places where we are not wanted.
  My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has revolutionised our Commonwealth and colonial policy by his talk of a wind of change. It is high time that a wind of change blew through our defence policy. Our rôle in the Western Alliance must surely be to provide the conventional deterrent and to leave the Americans to carry the major burden, as they already do, of the nuclear deterrent. If in order to afford more troops we have to economise financially, we should do it at the expense of our contribution to the nuclear deterrent. As my right hon. Friend the Member for

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  Flint, West (Mr. Birch) pointed out the other day, by chopping £40 million or £50 million off the cost of the nuclear deterrent, we can pay for another 40,000 or 50,000 soldiers in the Army.
  Although they do not say it in so many words, the Government Front Bench apparently intend to cut down on our contribution to N.A.T.O. The Opposition Front Bench evidently propose to cut down on our overseas garrisons. I believe that both these courses are equally disastrous. It is only because neither side is prepared to face the need for conscription that they are driven to these expedients. I invite both sides to sink their differences and agree both to make a proper contribution in Europe and to maintain our overseas garrisons at their proper strength. These things can be done, I believe, only by reintroducing conscription, and I am perfectly certain that, if the issue is properly put to it, the country will accept it.
  5.58 p.m.
  Mr. George Wigg: My hon. and learned Friend the Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget) enunciated a very important principle this afternoon when he pleaded for honesty in dealing with the Armed Forces. I cordially endorse that principle. However, it must be honesty not only in terms of cash. I speak on this subject with feeling because I am one who, though not yet in receipt of National Assistance, is nevertheless one of the victims of the Government's parsimonious policy towards those who have served. It affects members of my family also. However, I have always tried to guard against being bitter, though I heartily endorse my hon. and learned Friend's plea for more generous treatment particularly for those who through ill-health or inability to get a job find themselves on hard times.
  It is bitter ashes indeed for a man who has given long service in the Armed Forces to find himself eking out an existence on a few shillings or a few pounds a week, and then to see these sometimes lavish bounties given very often to induce men to join up. I would review pensions of ex-Service men and their dependants on grounds of wisdom, but I make this plea also for ex-Service men on grounds of elementary justice.
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  Before I return to the theme of honesty and its retrospective application, I want to refer to what I regard as perhaps the most important announcement affecting the Army made by the Government this week.
  During the defence debate, the Minister of Defence announced that the average man-power target is to be 390,000 to 400,000 for all three Services. My first thought was that, if 400,000 had any validity at all, why did he mention 390,000? Therefore, for the purpose of my analysis, I took it that the new target was to be 390,000, and during the defence debate I broke this figure down, on the spur of the moment, to see what it meant in practice.
  Assuming that the targets for the Navy and the Air Force remain the same, it means that the Army's new planning target is to be 167,000. I noticed with great interest next day that The Times came out with an article headed:
  "Army abandons recruiting targets. Emphasis now on a larger Navy."
  The targets mentioned in The Times were not wholly dissimilar from the conclusions I had arrived at. Since then, I have had the opportunity to make a few more inquiries and do some more sums.
  One of the major difficulties in which the Army and the Secretary of State find themselves—I include him because he accepts responsibility for what is happening in the Army—is that there have been two figures—the political figure and the internal planning figure. These figures were different as we know from the evidence of Lord Head, who was Secretary of State for War and then Minister of Defence. If gossip is correct, he was offered the job of Minister of Defence in the Macmillan Administration but declined to accept because he did not think that conscription should be abolished. In July, 1958, he said something which some of us already had an idea about—that the target figure of 165,000 was the figure which the actuaries had said might be recruited. That was the purely political figure.
  Even on that figure, I have had my doubts as to whether the Army would attain the target. I still have them. I thought that the Regular Army must be a long-service Army. I was a minority

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  on this side of the Committee in believing that. Nobody believed it, but anybody who sees how recruiting is going now realises that it is almost wholly due in the first instance to the abolition of the short-service engagement and to the introduction of the long-service engagement in July, 1957. But the alteration from short to a long-service engagement came much too late.
  The Army, therefore, was faced with the task of preparing plans without getting any clear political direction, except from the public announcement of a target of 165,000 men. One has said this before and one says it again—that in the first year of the 1957 White Paper we did not get a break-down but we got one a year later and it has altered every year since. But the figure built up overall to 403,000 for all three Services, and, though we never got a statement from the Government or the publication of any official document, the Army's actual target figure was 182,000 for planning purposes.
  The Army has continued to plan on the basis of 182,000, whereas, of course, the Secretary of State, for political purposes, has always had to maintain that the target was 165,000. The Secretary of State is in the dilemma that he has to come to the Committee and praise the efforts if he gets 165,000 or thereabouts, but at the same time he is 17,000 short on his planning figure. Let us examine this political figure of 165,000. A year ago the right hon. Gentleman was as optimistic as he is today. Since that time he has done a number of things.
  The right hon. Gentleman stopped discharge by purchase and perhaps the Under-Secretary of State will tell us how many men have applied for discharge by purchase and have been refused by the Secretary of State as a result of his embargo. That must affect the strength figures. The right hon. Gentleman has also introduced two bounty schemes of £200 each, one to National Service men to induce them to enter into Regular engagements, and the other to persuade Regulars to sign on again before 1st April. In addition, he has markedly lowered the standards of entry into the Regular Army.
  I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman will deny that last statement, but
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  I have tried to get some evidence because I know that right hon. and hon. Gentlemen are sceptical and are not prepared to take my say-so on such a vital matter. I have with me a copy of a War Office letter. I am quite willing to give the right hon. Gentleman the reference because he has, perhaps, not seen it. I will enlighten him about its contents.
  First, the letter does not talk about the target being attained on 1st January, 1963. We are always told here that the deadline is 1st January, 1963, but this letter refers to
  "The problem of ensuring that we reach our target figures for Regular other ranks by 1st April, 1963."
  I believe that date to be the true one.
  The Secretary of State, and his predecessor, and the Minister of Defence have indicated that they hope to get the target not by the end of the year but by 1st April, 1963, and that is what I think will happen. This letter does not deal with the subject of recruiting, because that is not so important once the Army is rid of short-service engagements and moves within a short period of the target date. Any man who joins them on a three-year engagement adds to the target strength, whereas, if there are still four or five years to go, such a man would not be much use for target purposes because he would be in and out before the target date is reached. The letter deals with the importance of wastage.
  The Secretary of State has left his imprint on the Army permanently by his recruiting standards policy, and this is what makes me so pessimistic. One of the things which has resulted from his policy is that he has lowered standards.
  Mr. Profumo Mr. Profumo indicated dissent.
  Mr. Wigg: Let the Committee judge. According to this letter, of 400 men becoming non-effective in the first six months of last year, 103 were transferred to the Army Reserve, 90 were discharged on medical grounds, 24 were discharged for disgraceful conduct, 35 were discharged as being no longer required, 63 were discharged by purchase in the first three months of their service, under Section 14 of the Army Act, and 32 were discharged by purchase in the ordinary way. Thus, out of a group of 400 non-effectives, 25 per cent. were transferred

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  to the Army Reserve in the ordinary way and an almost equal number went out on medical grounds, the majority being recruits in the first three months of service. What medical standards were being applied when they joined? What is the cost of that to the Army and to the country?
  Mr. Profumo: Is the hon. Gentleman quite sure that the figure of people discharged on medical grounds really does contain only those recruited? I do not think that I wrote that letter myself. I certainly do not remember it. This figure does seem somewhat high.
  Mr. Wigg: I can read, and the letter says
  "Sub-paragraph C: Medical, including recruits in the first three months of service."
  Mr. Profumo: That is the point. We are trying to do a break-down of these figures. I thought that the hon. Gentleman was saying they were all there.
  Mr. Wigg: I beg the Minister's pardon. Ninety were discharged on medical grounds, including a very high proportion of men in the first three months of their service.
  Mr. Profumo: Was it a high proportion?
  Mr. Wigg: It was quite high. The right hon. Gentleman knows me well enough to know that I do not keep things up my sleeve. I am giving the facts, because I am concerned about the wastage. I am not the only one who is concerned about the wastage. There was an extremely well-informed article in The Times some months ago. It may well be that the Secretary of State has taken steps to redress this and has tried to put it right. The quality of the Army depends to a great extent on very careful selection when men are going in.
  The Secretary of State has told us that he is to apply a very high standard when choosing his "Ever-readies". I hope that he is, but I hope that he will apply a higher standard than the standard which would appear to be disclosed by this communication, because it looks as if there is irrefutable evidence of a lowering of standards. I believe this to be true. When the Secretary of State deals with his recruiting figures, he must take into account the fact that in the coming
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  year there will be an abnormally high wastage because of the normal run-out. This is probably the reason for his bounty policy. Normal wastage for the current year is nearly 2,000 higher than it was last year.
  In addition, there will be this high wastage due to what I think is the over-speeding of the machine and taking anyone who can walk into the Army, irrespective of standards.
  Mr. Profumo: I should have thought that the very reverse of what the hon. Gentleman is arguing would be the case. If I had given instructions to lower the standards in the Army, it would mean that we should not be discharging so many people as medically unfit; we should be keeping them on so that my figures would be increased. We are not doing that. I do not understand the force of this argument.
  Mr. Wigg: I have said before, and I repeat, that I do not believe for one moment that the Secretary of State has done anything like this. I acquit him of any irresponsibility. I say that the War Office and the whole recruiting machine has been driven so hard to recruit, recruit, recruit, and then recruit! It is like coal at one stage—produce, produce, produce, and never worry about tomorrow! This is what has happened. In consequence, there has been the tremendous wastage to which I have referred
  I have gone round and talked to some of the recruiters. Some of them have ulcers and schizophrenia and that sort of thing because the machine has driven them so hard. It is being driven so hard that anyone that can walk is taken in. If the right hon. Gentleman does not accept what I say—there is no reason why he should accept it merely because I said it—what about the turnover article in The Times, which dealt with a very crack regiment—the Rifle Brigade or the Sixtieth? That article revealed a tremendous wastage problem.
  Mr. Philip Goodhart: Before the hon. Gentleman leaves this point, will he consider the fact that much of this trouble is caused by winkle-picker shoes? I have talked to people at our Green Jacket Depot. They have found that it is extremely difficult to spot the defects in people's feet caused by these shoes at the first examination.

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  It is only after a certain period that it becomes evident that they cannot walk properly.
  Mr. Wigg: The hon. Gentleman must not imagine that I am an expert on winkle-picker shoes. That is a little off my beat. I am quite prepared to believe that the "twist" and other current social habits may have an effect upon the health and limbs of our young people. Be that as it may, my point is that the Secretary of State has hotted up the machine to such a point that wastage is abnormally high.
  I am concerned at the moment about what I call the planning figure. I have here a recent issue of the Soldier. I have referred to this paper before. I will weary the Committee by reading a passage from it again. This is an official publication issued by the War Office. This is the paper the soldier reads. This is what he knows. Ministers can come to the House of Commons and give a glossy story, but what goes into the canteen, the barrack room and the local which the chaps can read is what matters. We are told in the Soldier:
  "The Army must have at least 182,000 officers and men to meet all its commitments, although even at this level there will still be some shortages."
  This is where the two policies harmonise. The Army, in order to be even reasonably viable, although there will be some shortages in the specialist arms, must have 182,000 men. In actual fact the Secretary of State, for political reasons, is hotting the machine up to get 165,000 by next January, although inside the War Office they do not hope to get them until April, 1963. They are still planning for 182,000, but now the word has gone round—the speech of the Minister of Defence last week broke the sad news to us—that the Army is not going to get 182,000.
  The figure for which the War Office will now plan is 173,000. I will give the figure to the right hon. Gentleman. It will probably be given to him sometime next week. I think that the new planning figure will be mid-way between 165,000 and 182,000. The right hon. Gentleman broke the news to us today—this was why I interrupted him—that we shall get a corps of infantry. I think
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  that this is the right policy. It will certainly receive my support.
  Mr. Profumo: I am sorry to interrupt the hon. Gentleman again. He has been most courteous about giving way. I never said anything about a corps of infantry. I said that I should study the idea of a large infantry regiment. The hon. Gentleman, above all people, knows that there is a complete difference between a large infantry regiment and a corps of infantry.
  Mr. Wigg: I am sorry. In ragging the right hon. Gentleman I am perhaps being a little unfair. I meant that we are moving in the direction of a corps of infantry.
  Mr. Profumo: No.
  Mr. Wigg: I know that the right hon. Gentleman did not say that, but I am reading the signs of the times. I heard the speech of the Minister of Defence earlier this week. He did not know what he was saying. He was reading a brief. He did not understand it. I tried to apply my mind to it on the spur of the moment. It meant that the Army's target was down 15,000. This was the plain English of it. Because The Times is the only paper with an able military correspondent, it has got on to it.
  The Secretary of State for War made another statement this afternoon which dovetails into this and supports my theory that we are to continue with one planning figure for political purposes to black out The Times and another to try to keep the boys quiet.
  Inside the War Office somebody has to make up his mind how many battalions of infantry we are to have. I presume that we are to continue to have sixty. If the Secretary of State's statement does not mean that we are to have a corps of infantry and if we are to keep sixty battalions of infantry out of 173,000 men, it will mean in practice that a very large number of these battalions will be below strength. If we are to have fewer men but keep the same number of armoured regiments and artillery and the same number of units as we have had in the past, which have been dovetailed into an overall plan totting up to 182,000—there would be shortages even at that figure—it follows

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  that the units must be at an even lower establishment than they are now.
  The proof is contained in speeches of previous Secretaries of State for War. The right hon. Gentleman's predecessor told the House that the infantry battalion's establishment of 635 did not work in Cyprus. We had proof of that, because when later the Duke of Wellington's Regiment was sent to Kenya it brought a very hot article in the Daily Mail from Lord Harding, who had been in Cyprus. He protested at infantry battalions going out there with only 635 men.
  The right hon. Gentleman's predecessor said that we could not use infantry battalions with strengths as low as 635. They were not viable if their establishments were below 800. I have tried to Check the strength of two battalions inside the Strategic Reserve. They are about 780. But I have never yet found an infantry battalion which was anywhere near the figure given by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Northampton for the Second Battalion of the Scots Guards.
  If the number of units remains the same but the total ceiling falls, the disease from which the Army is now suffering must get worse. Any pride which the Secretary of State for War has this afternoon about the success of his manpower policy must take this fact into account. We shall have under-strength units scattered all over the world. While they may be on the ration strength, they will not be fighting units.
  I turn to the very interesting speech of my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Northampton. I have waited until his return before saying this. He enunciated his principle of honesty in regard to the Army. I am all for that. If we are to have honesty, I presume to say that after the most careful thought he on behalf of the Labour Party this afternoon made a declaration that the strength of the British Army of the Rhine ought to be 80,000 and that if the Labour Party returns to power it will be 80,000 and this will be done inside a ceiling of 165,000. I am sure that he will forgive me for putting it in one word—"Nonsense". It just cannot be done. There is nobody who has a reputation to lose, and no one who knows anything about it, even with the qualifications
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  of an unpaid orderly-room lance-corporal who would make such a statement. I hope that I have made myself clear on that point.
  Let us see how the sums are done. This is not the first time we have considered this, and it is not the first time that I have risen in protest. In 1958, the problem was: if our forces in Berlin were attacked, how could they be defended? The story presented to us was that there were considerable forces in Berlin. There were in fact three battalions there. It was said that if those three battalions were attacked, they must stand and fight, even though they were opposed to twenty Russian divisions. I disagreed with that at that time, and I got into hot water when I said that this was no war; it was murder. They were to defend themselves with tactical atomic weapons which did not then exist. We had the most tremendous battle about whether we should use tactical atomic weapons, which did not exist. Questions were put by my hon. Friend the Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Emrys Hughes) and by other hon. Members—they are in the OFFICIAL REPORT—which quickly elicited the fact that the weapons did not exist.
  Today we are doing the same sort of sum. Now we are to have 80,000 troops in Germany, but we are not to have conscription. That is out, and, I suggest, out for political reasons. We have been told that we have to get rid of our overseas commitments. The first name on the list, the one furthest east, is Hong Kong. I went into the Hong Kong situation, and it certainly raised my ire a little. The first person to say this in any definite form did so in a broadcast. It was my hon. Friend the Member for Woolwich, East (Mr. Mayhew). It was repeated this week by my right hon. Friend the Member for Belper (Mr. G. Brown). My right hon. Friend the Member for Smethwick (Mr. Gordon Walker) did it again, as did my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Northampton. He went one better. It was not so very much better because the same words had been used by other people. He suggested that our troops should be seaborne. That suggestion, from such sources, is so remarkable that it ought

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  to be given the most careful examination. We are, it is suggested, in the name of economy, to send cruisers or destroyers into Hong Kong harbour. These vessels cost several million. We are to take cruisers out there to collect barnacles so that we can, at a given moment, put sailors ashore to act in defence of the civil power.
  This afternoon my hon. and learned Friend again enunciated a principle which I found most difficult to understand. He suggested that any old equipment would do, and that any old troops would do. It did not matter about their being trained. He said that we could put sailors in tanks. He drew on his imagination a little heavily by suggesting that the Tank Corps was trained by the Navy. What happened was that at one stage some soldiers went to Whale Island on a gunnery course, but the Navy did not teach them to drive tanks.
  At great expense it is suggested that we should take vessels costing millions and put them in Hong Kong harbour in order to find living room for troops to aid the civil power. The one thing that one must not do in the modern Army is to use specialist arms except for the purpose for which they have been trained. It is a real crime to take paratroopers, for instance, and use them as infantry. The paratroopers are crack troops, the best infantry in the world—perhaps I ought not to say that they are the best infantry because I may offend the susceptibilities of some hon. Members, but they are very good infantry. It is breaking the rules to use paratroopers as infantry or to use the artillery as infantry.
  The Government have done it. We have had case after case of artillery being used in an infantry rôle, but only for a limited period. Why we should want to use sailors in this rôle is completely beyond me. They have not been trained for the job. I should have thought that on this side of the Committee we were rather suspicious of gunboat diplomacy. The suggestion that we should land parties of sailors under the protection of the guns of the fleet I should have thought was more suitable for the Lyceum when it was open, but not for serious military discussion. Most of the ships could not give any protection
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  because they are armed for quite another rôle.
  Let us go further with this very remarkable suggestion. It may cost this country dear and even cost some of our troops their lives. Let us remember why we are in Hong Kong at all. My hon. and learned Friend, if he troubles to look it up, will find that we re-occupied Hong Kong in September, 1945. I believe that there was very careful thought as to whether we should go back again, and considerable American opposition to our going back. My right hon. Friend the Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell) backs me up. This was a deliberate act of policy by the Labour Government, and they were fully conscious of all the difficulties involved. We went back to Hong Kong and, thereafter, successive declarations of policy were made by the Labour Party.
  There was the major debate of 5th May, 1949. The present Prime Minister, then speaking for the Opposition, towards the end of his speech, said:
  "For Hong Kong is the Gibraltar of the East. It must be held."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 5th May, 1949; Vol. 464, c. 1238.]
  He was given assurances by Mr. A. V. Alexander, the then Minister of Defence, and as a result there was no Division. There was a restatement of policy in a debate in the House of Lords on 3rd February, 1949, when Viscount Hall, the First Lord of the Admiralty, speaking for the then Labour Government said:
  "Quite apart from several questions which arose in relation to Europe, a number of questions were raised concerning territories outside of Europe. My right hon. Friend referred to Hong Kong and said:"—
  He was referring to a debate that took place in the House of Commons on 10th December, 1948—
  "'I think there is no need to make any formal or long statement. I will merely state that it is the intention of His Majesty's Government to maintain their position in Hong Kong.' I do not think anything more categorical than that is required."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, House of Lords, 3rd February, 1949; Vol. 160, c. 552.]
  The statement to which Lord Hall referred was made on 10th December, 1948, in the House of Commons—this is the amusing part of it—by my hon. Friend the Member for Woolwich, East, who was one of the first people in the early part of this year to suggest that we

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  should withdraw from Hong Kong or cut down our garrisons there.
  This is the story. This was a commitment entered into by both parties—a most solemn commitment to go into Hong Kong for the purpose of the maintenance of internal security.
  Mr. Paget: Before my hon. Friend leaves that point, has he observed that at that time there was a Chiang kai-Shek Government which was, in fact, a client Government of the Americans? Does he seriously suggest now that we can hold Hong Kong against the Communists, or that we should try to do so? If he is not suggesting that, I do not know what he is talking about.
  Mr. Wigg: I am sorry that my hon. and learned Friend does not know what he is talking about. That balances us. I do not follow him. I had assumed that before he made this major declaration of policy on behalf of the Labour Party my hon. and learned Friend would have refreshed his memory and reread past debates. But he has not done so. I am reminded by my right hon. Friend the Member for Easington that when the Labour Government sent our troops back there in 1945 it was perfectly clear that there was no possibility whatever of holding Hong Kong in the sense meant by my hon. and learned Friend when he talked about going back into Hong Kong. All the way through those speeches was recognition of the fact that there was an internal security problem. The forces in Hong Kong under the Labour Government were twice as large as they are now, but their balanced composition was the same as it is now.
  But I want to get on. I readily assure my hon. and learned Friend that at the time we went back into Hong Kong the Kuomintang was in power. But the situation there is exactly the same as it was. There is the Kuomintang Party and the Communist Party and a group in between that wants neither of them. That is what Lord Alexander brought out over and over again. Our job was to prevent the clashes between those two groups from blowing up into what would have mattered—an internal war which would have jeopardised the security of Hong Kong.
  My hon. and learned Friend seems to have overlooked some of the facts. He
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  talks about internal security and landing a few sailors from a ship. He seems to have forgotten the riots and violence in Hong Kong in 1956 which involved 50,000 Chinese refugees and casualties including fifty-six dead and hundreds of wounded and material damage estimated at millions of dollars. Does my hon. and learned Friend realise what it means when he talks about using the Fleet? If one is to use the Fleet, presumably it has to have a harbour. Has he thought of that? Or is it that the ships are to sail back to Singapore? Then, I presume, the burglars will case the joint, finding that the Fleet has moved.
  Mr. Paget: The Fleet can use the harbour there.
  Mr. Wigg: I was waiting for my hon. and learned Friend to say that. The fact is that the naval dockyard was closed on 28th November, 1958. What my hon. and learned Friend has said is exactly what I was waiting for. Therefore, it seems to me that this was one of the most badly-thought-out and irresponsible statements that any hon. Member has ever made in the House of Commons.
  Mr. Paget: I have seldom heard quite such nonsense. How can my hon. Friend refer to Hong Kong as an entrepôt port when it has not a harbour and has nowhere for a ship to go? The argument between us is whether in the case of civil riots the local police can be backed by soldiers or sailors. There is perhaps room for some difference of opinion, but there is inadequate room for such offensive rudeness.
  Mr. Wigg: I certainly am not going to withdraw if I have been rude, because I have tried to be rude, and I shall continue to be rude when people play politics with the lives of soldiers. I had a nephew serving in my own regiment which was there. This sort of thing sends my blood pressure up.
  When one starts talking about withdrawal in that part of the world, there are certain aspects to it. I will describe what happens. I will put it in terms in which I have talked to hon. Members on both sides of the Committee. I should have thought it certain that somewhere in the Chinese Ministry of Defence there is a file marked "Hong Kong" and perhaps "Bring forward on 1st January,

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  2000." It may be that suddenly the Chinese Government in Peking, who do not understand our ways and do not appreciate that statements can be made in the course of debate which are not meant, see references here to the withdrawal of the Hong Kong garrison, and they may think to themselves "Aha, the Kuomintang may move in. Now that the British are going out of Hong Kong and the Kuomintang are coming in under the shadow of American strategic air power, that is a different kettle of fish."
  Mr. Gordon Walker: My hon. Friend the Member for Dudley (Mr. Wigg) is the only person in the Committee who has talked about the withdrawal of the garrison from Hong Kong.
  Mr. Wigg: I am sorry, but—
  Mr. Paget: What I have suggested is that here is a field in which the Navy can replace the Army. That is all that we have ever said. What my hon. Friend the Member for Dudley is saying is absurd.
  Mr. Wigg: I am sorry, but at the present moment my hon. and learned Friend really does not know what he is saying.
  Mr. Paget: My hon. Friend is making an ass of himself.
  Mr. Wigg: Let us leave the public to judge that. My hon. and learned Friend is saying that he is going to withdraw the Army and put in sailors on ships in defence of the civil power. If that is not withdrawing one's effective power from Hong Kong or one's ability to patrol over on the peninsula, I should like to know what is.
  Mr. Paget: If my hon. Friend had listened to my speech, he would have realised that I referred to the opening of the naval barracks.
  Mr. Wigg: I have had several talks with my hon. and learned Friend since he made his statement on Monday, and I guessed that he might be going to qualify it. That is not what he said on Monday night. He did not then say anything about putting sailors into barracks. On Monday night he said that he was going
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  to use cruisers and destroyers. He said he was going to use seaborne forces. My right hon. Friend the Member for Belper mentioned seaborne forces, too. That is what was said. What I am suggesting is that if one does what has been suggested by my right hon. and hon. and learned Friends one is putting the seeds of fear and doubt into the minds of the Chinese Communists, who may think that there is a possibility of a Koumintang coup. By that means they may provoke the very thing that we are all desirous of preventing. It is no good my hon. and learned Friend trying to quibble about police forces. Again, the Labour Government dealt with this. The Labour Government doubled the police force. They also tried to raise a volunteer force. And they put in two brigade groups totalling 12,000 men, double the present force.
  I am saying that we should not balance our accounts that way if we are to keep 80,000 troops in Germany. I do not dissent from stepping up the garrisons in Germany, but to do so we have to have some form of conscription. I fail to see how we serve a British interest if in order to keep 80,000 troops in Germany one has then to talk about—
  Mr. E. Shinwell: Who said that?
  Mr. Wigg: Does my right hon. Friend wish to intervene?
  Mr. Shinwell: I am sorry to interrupt my hon. Friend. I have listened to all these debates, and I know something about the policy of the Labour Party, but I was not aware that it was the official policy of the Labour Party—
  Mr. Wigg: It was said today.
  Mr. Shinwell: —to have 80,000 troops in Germany. This is the first time I have ever heard it.
  Mr. Wigg: This afternoon we had a declaration of policy coming from the Labour spokesman on the Opposition Front Bench saying that we were to maintain 80,000 troops in Germany without conscription. I just do not believe—
  Mr. S. Silverman: Surely my hon. Friend the Member for Dudley (Mr. Wigg), like the rest of us, has been aware for years that defence spokesmen from the Opposition Front Bench do not put

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  forward the defence policy of the Labour Party? They have not done it for years.
  Mr. Wigg: That is my hon. Friend's view. I think that a statement from the Opposition Front Bench on an occasion such as this is, in fact, a declaration of policy. I am surely entitled—since I have been in the House of Commons I have tried to treat this subject seriously—to protest when Labour Front Bench spokesmen start talking about having 80,000 men posted in Germany and about our coming out of Hong Kong. Surely I have a right to make that protest.
  My right hon. Friend the Member for Huyton (Mr. H. Wilson), with great courage, did the same from the Dispatch Box. He made it clear that he had doubts about the Hong Kong policy. So we had two Labour Front Bench views. But after my right hon. Friend the Member for Huyton had said that, my right hon. Friend the Member for Belper repeated that statement, and it has been made again this afternoon. Therefore, surely I am entitled to regard this as a serious matter.
  Miss Harvie Anderson: Would I be in order in asking the hon. Gentleman whether the statement made earlier this afternoon by the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget) about the 80,000 is the official policy?
  Mr. Wigg: I hope that the hon. Lady will pardon me, but that is not really a question for me, but a question for my hon. and learned Friend. I certainly take what he says and treat it seriously. I am indignant about the Hong Kong declaration. I will tell the Committee why. I have told hon. Members this before, but I will repeat it again today.
  This is one of my most vivid experiences of the last few years. I went with my right hon. Friend the Member for Easington to East Germany. We wanted to have a look at the East German forces. While we were there, by accident we learned that there was a visiting delegation of Chinese. We were invited to go to a place called Strauburg—I think it was—where there was an East German guards brigade, and there was the delegation consisting of a very considerable number of Chinese officers. We spoke to the Chinese Deputy Prime
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  Minister and Minister of Defence. Neither of us could speak Chinese, and we did not speak German, but we had a translator who translated from Chinese into German and from German into English. What he said, making a full declaration to the German troops, was that an attack on Berlin would be regarded as an attack on China. I whispered to my right hon. Friend, "Hong Kong".
  I have always been worried about the possible reactions of any tensions in Europe on the Chinese position in Hong Kong. This is one of the nerve centres. This is the point where East meets West. We should not even whisper in case we bring down the avalanche. We must be very careful indeed about what we say and do in that part of the world.
  In order to maintain law and order we need to have a sufficient number of troops, of trained troops, well equipped troops, highly disciplined troops, troops who, the commander can be absolutely sure, will carry out his orders—just that, and no more: not having men coming ashore from ships and fixing bayonets and marching through the streets as in the days of good Queen Victoria. Not that, but a highly disciplined, tempered instrument which the Governor and Commander-in-Chief can be absolutely certain will play fair between the Kuomintang and the Communists.
  That is the example of the sort of temperate use we need of British power at a very delicate point, at a stabilising point, at a point from which we should certainly not withdraw lightly or wantonly. We should certainly not talk about withdrawing from a place like Hong Kong because we want to balance the manpower account and will not face up to the issue of conscription. This is what is wrong. Let us always regard honesty to the Army as a right policy, not only as regards pay but also in balancing out commitments.
  6.43 p.m.
  Dr. Alan Glyn: I am indeed grateful to follow the hon. Member for Dudley (Mr. Wigg), because he has saved me a considerable amount of time by demolishing the case presented by the hon. and learned Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget). I rather feel that I am entering into what is perhaps a private war between the two views

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  which have been expressed, but I should like to make it clear that we on this side of the Committee certainly do not subscribe to the view that we can have just any old troops with any old equipment in Hong Kong or anywhere else.
  What we on this side feel is that by providing a force in Hong Kong we can not only control internal security in that part of the world, but at the same time make it quite clear that if it were attacked at any time that would be an act of war. The hon. and learned Gentleman may be quite right—in fact, he is quite right—that the water supplies could be cut off and the amount of water in the reservoirs could be insufficient for an unlimited period, but it seems to me that if we have got a properly disciplined force there, then an attack on the part of the Chinese would be an act of war and an act which, I think, they would be very reluctant to take. So I hope that it will not be thought by the country that this side of the Committee subscribes to the view that any old troops with any old equipment are good enough for the defence of this or any other part of the world.
  The hon. and learned Gentleman mentioned the target as 80,000 troops. I do not know whether that is the Labour Party's official policy or not, but he did say that categorically in his speech.
  Mr. Paget: If the hon. Gentleman wants to know what the official policy of the Labour Party is, it is and always has been to perform our treaty obligations as entered into at Brussels.
  Dr. Glyn: In other words, the hon. and learned Member accepts the figure of 80,000?
  Mr. Paget: My view, as I said in my speech, is that probably a figure in that neighbourhood will be required to provide the four divisions which we are committed by treaty obligations to provide and which we ought to provide. Could anything be clearer than that?
  Dr. Glyn: I am grateful to the hon. and learned Member for making the policy clear.
  Mr. Paget: It has been our policy for years.
  Dr. Glyn: I am grateful to the hon. and learned Member for making that
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  clear, but if he thinks we can get that number of troops by cutting our commitments in these parts of the world, I am sorry but I entirely disagree with him.
  What we need in these garrisons is a small, efficient force, which my right hon. Friend is endeavouring to produce, backed up by what he has already described as a very proficient, mobile force. I am sure that is the right policy we have to work to within the framework of an all-Regular Army.
  There is a point which should be mentioned and has not been mentioned so far. So many of us refer to manpower as being the essential measure. I disagree fundamentally with that. What I am sure is needed in N.A.T.O. or anywhere else is not so much manpower: it is fire power. Since entering into our treaty obligations we have, in fact, increased our fire power. Would it be irrational to say that we could reduce manpower and still produce the same firepower to which we were committed under our original treaty? That is a point which I hope my right hon. Friend will stress.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Bute and North Ayrshire (Sir F. Maclean) says that we have got to face the fundamental issue of conscription. I accept that, but we have now got this mobility, and that is very important. In my maiden speech two years ago I stressed the importance of this, that by having mobility in moving our troops to B.A.O.R. and bringing them back we can save man hours, and thus it may be possible to work down to a figure of round about 165,000. I do not think it is impossible. This has a bearing on our basic commitments and additional commitments, and I shall come back to that later on.
  Now I should like to say one word about recruiting, which brings me to the question of accommodation, which is one I have always laboured, for it is absolutely fundamental. This is one of the things which the Army can offer and which competing professions and occupations cannot always produce. The Army cannot always compete with the civilian professions and occupations in pay, in conditions, in hours. If the Army can also offer accommodation, then I submit to the Committee that it will have one bull point which cannot always be guaranteed in

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  civil life. If my right hon. Friend can succeed with his building programme then I believe he will give the Army an additional attraction for recruiting men.
  Mr. Brian Harrison: I think I am right in assuming that the actual amount which was allocated to accommodation was underspent. Is my hon. Friend criticising my right hon. Friend for that?
  Dr. Glyn: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. It was in fact underspent. I realise that, and I appreciate my right hon. Friend's problem, that it is sometimes difficult to get these things phased in a year and within the framework of the budget; it is difficult to balance on an annual Estimate. I only wish that some other method of accounting could be adopted which would help us over that problem.
  Mr. Profumo: One of the problems in this country is that, whatever we estimate for, we are, of course, building to the fullest possible extent which the building trade can absorb. There is nothing more I can do about that. It has meant we have not done quite as much as we should have liked because the building trade could not absorb any more.
  Dr. Glyn: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend. I know that he is doing everything possible about it. I know he is even trying to get this wonderful building for the Household Cavalry at Knightsbridge which I trust he will not forget.
  I should like to say a few words about the reserve forces. I regard the A.E.R. and the Territorial Reserve as very important, and I would stress on my right hon. Friend the importance of not having anybody in unless he is fully trained. There is not the slightest difficulty with big employers. It is easy to get them to agree to a man being away for training for six months, but it is not easy with a firm employing five or six people. I hope, however, that employers in general throughout the country will realise that men who have this obligation are doing a great deal towards the national effort and making a valuable contribution to the country's defence.
  I would also ask my right hon. Friend whether the period of a fortnight's
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  training could not be increased at a man's request and whether, like our Supplementary Reserve before the war, a man should be allowed to exceed that period. It was done before the war, and the Supplementary Reserve worked efficiently. Officers and men sometimes spent two or three months in training. This applied particularly to the self-employed man, who was able to get off for that longer period and thereby benefited by the additional training.
  The R.A.M.C. is a very important branch of the Army. I was very pleased to hear of the incentives which my right hon. Friend is offering to doctors to join the Service. It has always been thought in the past that a doctor was an old "saw-bones" who after spending ten years in the R.A.M.C. was fit for nothing. The reason for that was that too much time was spent in administration. I welcome the suggestion made by my right hon. Friend that a doctor in the R.A.M.C. can go in for something equivalent to a private practice and can have the chance of taking a specialist examination during the first two or three years of his service. He is, therefore, in almost a better position than he would be in civilian life.
  As my hon. Friend knows, when a doctor is qualified he has to do a year's probationary period. If we could arrange with the General Medical Council to earmark certain military hospitals here and overseas where it would be in order for that doctor to do his year's training, subject to approval by the G.M.C., it would act as a tremendous incentive because in the first year the doctor would receive higher pay than he would receive in an ordinary hospital. This perhaps would also induce him to stay on in the R.A.M.C. He might have a three years' contract, of which the first year would be spent in a hospital recognised by the G.M.C. for that first year's training. It would mean a certain amount of supervision. I have been in contact with certain authorities already and I do not think that there would be any difficulty in giving that cachet of qualification to certain military hospitals provided that there was supervision that would be given in an ordinary civilian hospital.
  As to professions supplementary to medicine, my right hon. Friend might

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  consider the possibility of giving officer status to people like radiographers and other technical people whose services are so important. This is important, because some professions like that of physiotherapist have officer status whereas radiographers have not. It may be that the trade union of doctors will not allow these people to have that status, but it would be a help if my right hon. Friend would look at the ranks carefully with a view to upgrading some of the more important ones to that status. Under the scheme which my right hon. Friend has initiated, doctors will feel that they have more chance of study and practice which will fit them for life when they leave the Service. I welcome this wholeheartedly.
  In these debates we rightly talk about the men, but the officers are important and I was interested to see from paragraph 52 of the Memorandum that my right hon. Friend has laid stress on the importance of the relationship between young officers and men. This should increase recruiting figures. There is a feeling that perhaps young officers are not always as sympathetic with the men as they should be, and particularly with the senior N.C.O.s, when they come into contact with them for the first time. This can be cured by the commanding officer, the squadron leader, the company commander, or indeed the R.S.M. This is something which should be looked at and should be emphasised when the officer is at Sandhurst or wherever he is trained.
  I hope that my right hon. Friend will agree that the question of officers passing out of Sandhurst is something that also should be looked at. Is the present course long enough? Should there be a little more academic training, and should not the officer be given a degree at the end of his Sandhurst course equivalent to a university degree? Officers who leave the Army at the age of 35 or 40 often have no actual qualification for any other professional life. Sandhurst gives them a wonderful education, but few people outside accept that. If officers were to spend a little longer at Sandhurst they could have a qualification not secondary to but equivalent to a university degree.
  University graduates who come into the Army have the advantage that at the end
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  of their service they have a degree which qualifies them for a large number of civilian occupations. I know that my right hon. Friend will say that some of the military technical colleges do this already, but it should be basic to all officers passing out of Sandhurst, even if it means extending the course so that they should be given a general training equivalent to a university education.
  I welcome what my right hon. Friend has said and I hope that the Army will feel that the opportunities presented basically represent a life of comradeship which should appeal to people who still have a spirit of adventure. The hon. and learned Member for Northampton made the point that the man who joins the Army does not always look at what he is getting now but rather at what he will have in the future. The pension is important to him when he starts his career. We should not forget that when pensions were initiated, the Services and the Civil Service alone gave them, but now they have to compete with great commercial undertakings which also provide pension schemes for their employees. Though I would remind the hon. and learned Member for Northampton that it has been the policy of a Conservative Government to maintain the value of the pound as far as possible, this question of pensions nevertheless is something which my right hon. Friend might look at when he reviews the possibilities of getting every possible man who wants to join into the Service.
  6.58 p.m.
  Mr. K. Zilliacus: The hon. Member for Clapham (Dr. Alan Glyn) defended as best he could the Government's official defence policy of a relatively small full-time professional Army backed by the famous independent nuclear deterrent which is not independent and cannot deter. That policy has been severely criticised on both sides of the House as regards the nuclear deterrent, and I will not go into that further except to say that I agree with the criticism.
  The alternative policy is that to which the present United States Administration is understood to have become a convert, and which has been pressed for some time on the House by the Opposition, namely, greater and better equipped conventional forces and less reliance on

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  nuclear weapons. In this connection, perhaps the critics on both sides are being a little hard on my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget) for putting forward what was the official Labour policy. I do not agree with that policy, because I do not agree with our defence commitments. But given the existence of those defence commitments the Government and the Opposition are both in somewhat of a dilemma—for there is no such thing as defence of this country. It becomes indefensible in nuclear war.
  When it comes to ringing the changes on what to do with the Army, we are up against certain basic facts, one of which is that the Government are afraid to put their policy to the electors. Defence costs have gone up this year by £100 million and there is a Supplementary Estimate for another £28 million. We only just escaped a cut in the social services because the Government were afraid of the political consequences. Similarly, the logic of the Labour Party's policy is conscription, but the Labour Party knows very well that it would be political suicide to propose conscription.
  Therefore, the party policy which my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Northampton was expounding as best he could was that we should avoid the necessity for conscription while having bigger and better conventionally-armed forces, particularly in N.A.T.O., by cutting commitments in the Middle and Far East. That sounds fine until one starts trying to cut them. I will not indulge in any further remarks on the result of the efforts of my hon. and learned Friend to make suggestions. He was roughly treated by both sides of the Committee.
  The whole operation is one akin to squaring the circle or making a blanket bigger by cutting it off at one end and sewing it on at the other. The same thing applies to the suggestion that we should cannibalise the Services in order to use sailors and airmen to make up for the deficiency of the Army. All that kind of thing is merely the result of the attempt to justify a demand for bigger conventionally-armed forces, a bigger Army, while dodging the issue of conscription. Both the Government and the Opposition are dodging that issue because it is a hot potato.
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  I am against conscription, because I am against these defence commitments. Therefore, I come to the question of what are the commitments for which the Army is supposed to fight. The Secretary of State for War, in his speech this afternoon—I took down his words and this is a fairly close rendering of what he said—told us that our forces are ready to intervene to keep the peace anywhere in the world where our interests or those of our allies are directly involved.
  The first paragraph of the Memorandum on the Army Estimates defines the position a little more closely. It states:
  "As the Defence White Paper explains, the British Army has three major rôles: to assist in the defence of this country and the Commonwealth, to fulfil our treaty obligations, and to maintain internal security in those of our territories which remain dependent on us."
  I shall confine my attention to the commitments of the Army under our treaty obligations, which the Defence White Paper defines as being N.A.T.O., CENTO and S.E.AT.O. I will not touch on the other obligations of the Army, what I call the national obligations, those which are entirely under the control of the Government, not because I agree with them but because, first, they are a relatively minor matter compared with our military or Army obligations and other defence obligations under these treaties, and secondly, because in any event they are matters which the Government can change at their discretion at any time they see fit, whereas their treaty obligations are subject to interpretation by our allies, and particularly by the United States, which runs these alliances and determines for what we have to risk war under those alliances and for what purposes our troops are to be engaged.
  Let us consider our obligations in S.E.A.T.O. from that point of view. Under S.E.A.T.O., we may be committed at any moment directly by American policies in Southern Vietnam and in Laos. The other day, the United States Attorney-General, Mr. Robert Kennedy, said that America was at war in Southern Vietnam. He had to correct that slip of the tongue, because under the American Constitution the Administration has no right to engage in war without the assent of Congress. The fact remains, however, that there are about 4,000

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  American military personnel in Southern Vietnam. The situation there is becoming ugly and we may be dragged in at any moment under our S.E.A.T.O. obligations.
  A similar situation, but one as yet not quite so threatening, exists in Laos. We could again indirectly be dragged in through the American alliances with Taiwan and with South Korea. The point about it is that this S.E.A.T.O. obligation as interpreted by the Americans in Southern Vietnam is one of armed intervention in the internal affairs of that country.
  The Deputy-Chairman (Sir Robert Grimston): Order. I am sorry to interrupt the hon. Member, but he cannot go into the merits of these treaty obligations. He can discuss whether the strength of the Army is sufficient to fulfil them, but under this Vote he cannot go at great length into the merits of these treaty obligations.
  Mr. Zilliacus: In pursuance of that ruling, Sir Robert, I will not go at length into the merits. I merely say that I believe them to be improper in the sense of being contrary to the Charter, dangerous in the sense that they may land us in a world war of extermination and not in our national interest. Moreover, I believe that they exceed the capacity of the Army. We cannot engage in a large-scale guerrilla war in Southern Vietnam. We cannot afford another Korea.
  Under CENTO, at the time that British forces were flown to Jordan in 1958, the Prime Minister claimed on 17th July of that year that they had been sent there because of what he called a "pattern of subversion and conspiracy". He claimed that under the United Nations, we had the right to act in that way in self-defence. Again, that could easily lead us into commitments far beyond our military strength.
  It was only by the grace of God that that doctrine was not applied in Iraq at the time. It might be applied to Iran at any moment. If so, at the very best, the Army would be committed to trying to hold down vast areas of a country in order to suppress a popular rising against intolerably reactionary and oppressive rulers, with the imminent danger of starting a world war. All this
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  is an illegitimate extension of the right of defence against armed attack under Article 51 of the Charter.
  In N.A.T.O., similarly, we have had the call for more conventional forces, no doubt to engage in small wars. It was pointed out by my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey) in a debate some time ago that the situations that might arise would be mixed situations in which an internal rising was allegedly being helped from outside. That kind of situation also could develop militarily far beyond the capacity of the Army. It could let us in for some very large-scale operations. It is dangerous because it could escalate so easily into a world war. Under the Charter of the United Nations it is an illegitimate extension of the right to take the law into our own hands and resort to force. On top of that, as in the other examples, it is really not necessary, because from the point of view of at least Labour's conception of the national interest the basis for agreement with the Soviet Union in all those parts of the world exists and could be negotiated. So that these commitments are unnecessary.
  Instead of loading this country with back-breaking defence expenditure and flirting with the restoration of conscription for commitments which most people, and certainly the Labour Party, would regard as not worth fighting for and which, in most cases, are worthy of being defeated, because these are reactionary and hopeless causes, we should on the contrary try to lighten the defence burden and the strain on the Army and avoid the need for conscription by applying the principle that we will not be committed to war by allies who refuse to agree with us on how to make peace. To make sure that we mean business by that we should withdraw our forces from N.A.T.O., CENTO and S.E.A.T.O. unless and until our allies trim and reshape these commitments to make them compatible with the Charter of the United Nations and a reasonable policy for making peace.
  7.10 p.m.
  Miss Harvie Anderson: A year ago the hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton (Mr. Zilliacus) followed me in a similar debate and did

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  me the honour of being kindly about the manner in which I made my remarks. He was less kindly disposed towards the matter which I expressed. I hope that he will not take it amiss if I present the compliment in reverse tonight. The hon. Gentleman mentioned the possibility of bigger and better conventional forces, a matter to which I shall return in a moment.
  Our need today is for a volunteer Regular Army, and I think it right to consider our manpower position in relation both to the strategy which we accept in this country, even though we do so by a majority, and at the same time in relation to the number of men which we may consider available to enlist in this country by whatever means we get them to do so. If we do this, at the outset we must—because of the size of our country and the available manpower, and apart from other considerations—face the necessity to accept the nuclear deterrent. But I do not think that we can do so without pausing to consider the bearing that this may have on the manpower situation in connection with what the right hon. Member for Smethwick (Mr. Gordon Walker) said earlier this week. He said:
  "The United States has been engaged on a really very courageous recasting of its whole strategic thought in order to find an alternative to the repellent doctrine of massive retaliation."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 5th March, 1962; Vol. 655, c. 63.]
  That is all very well and is an idealistic conception which we must admire. But we must not take it further—in relation to this debate—by construing it to mean that the possible result may be that we should be expected to find additional conventional forces.
  I think, therefore, that we ought to balance those requirements for the nuclear deterrent with forces adequate for the strategy which that envisages. Mention should be made of our own deterrent in this connection; not to argue—it would be out of order to do so—whether we should have our own deterrent, but to point out that there are those of us who consider that this has a bearing on manpower, in that the possession of our own deterrent enables us to stand in a position to argue with our allies in relation to our requirements which many of us believe that we should not otherwise be able to do.
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  I think, also, that we have to carry on this argument, both in relation to strategy and in relation to available manpower. But I do not think that it would be realistic to do so without bearing in mind our world commitments, which hon. Members on this side of the Committee rate very high, not only because of treaty obligations which we have accepted, but in relation to our contribution to world peace; a contribution neither required nor expected from any other country in the world to the extent which it is expected from us. In doing this we must not confuse ourselves with what part nuclear strategy must play in the manpower situation outwith this country.
  By now many of us must be beginning to realise that there can be no adequate subdivision between tactical and total nuclear war. It is noticeable from the Memorandum which we are discussing that tactical weapons, as we once envisaged them—that is as being something separate from those weapons of war which might constitute total nuclear war—have well nigh disappeared from separate consideration. When we remember that and when we add to it the fact that nuclear war is the more likely to depend on first-strike offensive, then the alternative is more likely to be a doubtful defensive rôle. We realise that the part played by our manpower contribution is, as I have already said, that which would adequately enable nuclear strategy to operate.
  As conventional forces, therefore, we want forces capable of preventing a probing war, and we want conventional forces in the ultimate—and I repeat in the ultimate—capable of creating a pause during which we hope—this we all hope—that some form of sanity will still prevail. If this be our point of view, and if we are to assess our manpower contribution on that basis, we must for a moment consider the point of view of our main ally, if—and again I say if—it be that their view is the view expressed by the hon. and learned Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget) earlier, that it is necessary to increase the number of 52,000 troops which we contribute to N.A.T.O. at present—increase them to any number greater than the existing 52,000.

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  I think that that point of view overlooks a number of factors. It overlooks the limitations of conventional war in total nuclear strategy. It overlooks the fact that the abolition of the nuclear deterrent, so far as this country is concerned, would not of itself provide additional men. We cannot put men in the B.A.O.R. or anywhere else if we have not got them. Nor does it consider our worldwide commitments, which I have already mentioned; and one cannot dismiss this in relation to our American allies without remembering their known anti-colonial bias when they regard our world commitments.
  In Europe at present, in men and in the cost, which we are discussing in the Estimate today, our commitments are such that we are maintaining over 100,000 men in Germany excluding the Berlin garrison. If we look at paragraphs 5 to 17 of the Memorandum we find that we have to add to that the cost of the contributions which we make in maintaining forces all over the world as a contribution towards world peace. If we overstretch ourselves and are unable to fulfil our world commitments, we shall undermine B.A.O.R., N.A.T.O. and world peace itself.
  There is in addition the overall consideration of a contribution which undoubtedly adds into what we are considering today, in that we are responsible for paying out a vast amount to under-developed countries. Perhaps it is not paid strictly in terms of soldiers and their cost, but nevertheless it is part of the barrier against Communism for which we also provide men and money. We have to make this contribution, which hon. Members opposite will agree is a good one. Therefore, we should not be serving N.A.T.O. were we to reduce any of these commitments which must be added to the manpower commitments which we are discussing today. Conventional forces, as mentioned in paragraph 1 of the Memorandum, are for a definite purpose. They are there to provide that balance against nuclear and conventional attack and to create that pause of which I have spoken. They are also there to provide for our overseas commitments.
  The alternative of extending our forces beyond these objectives would undermine
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  our manpower position at home, undermine the economy at home and in the long run would create defeat not defence. This is an aspect of defence sometimes forgotten when we are dealing with worldwide problems from a source as small as this island. If we accept our overseas commitments—and I must accept them, although the hon. Member for Gorton is unable to accept them—we may from time to time have to take away from our existing 52,000 in N.A.T.O. and I believe it is for that purpose that we have made provision to put in reserves. We therefore realise that we cannot and will not alter the present position, at least in the foreseeable future.
  It is possible—and many of us may have given long consideration to that which may lie behind this Memorandum—that what we are being asked to do in Germany is too extensive. It would not be in order to discuss that at this stage, but nevertheless there are those of us who hope that our commitments may alter so that we shall soon be strengthened in our position in Germany rather than the reverse.
  We are not entitled, especially in the light of what the Secretary of State for War said this afternoon, to resort to conscription at this stage. It seems madness that at a time when recruiting is going better than in any post-war period that we should fail to give its success the recognition that it is due and thus give every encouragement to maintain an all-Regular force on a voluntary basis. Nevertheless, when we maintain a fully-equipped voluntary force we must not at the same time seek to overstretch its commitments and we must equip it well.
  The Memorandum says that much of the equipment is coming along. I have said before, and I say again, that I think it is too long in coming. The argument is that to re-equip an Army is a gradual process, but it seems to me that it has taken a long time in this case. I am well aware that it takes seven or eight years to put into the Army any major item of equipment, but, as hon. Members opposite would point out, we have had ten years to do this and we want to see good results. Therefore I think it unfortunate that while we look through the Memorandum and find such

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  a forward look in some of the illustrations these do not quite match the reality of what we see in fact in the units of the Army.
  I confess that I like some aspects of the Estimates very little. I do not propose to go into some of the details of which I greatly disapprove, important although I consider some of them to be. I should like, for example, to spend some time discussing the educational facilities available to the Army at present. I am not now talking of the soldiers and those serving in the Army. I am thinking of the children of Army families who more and more are being taken all over the world—rightly so—with battalions of soldiers. I am afraid that in at least some instances they are not being educated up to the standards they could expect if they were in settled circumstances in this country. I hope that great thought is being given to the position of all those Army children. I am afraid that in many instances they were better served in the old days when an Army school mistress went around with the unit. I cannot think that any child can adequately learn if he or she has been taught by six, seven or eight different people in two or three years.
  There are some aspects of the Estimates which, as I say, I like very little, but I am sure that in the main there is need to contain our manpower within our limited resources. I do not necessarily mean economic resources, but the realistic consideration of how many men we have in this country, what we expect them to do, and how we expect them to be divided. I think we should retain voluntary enlistment at this time when it promises well. And, in accepting the nuclear deterrent as part of the strategy which dictates the complementary manpower, we have to remember—and here I disagree with my hon. Friend the Member for Bute and North Ayrshire (Sir F. Maclean)—that power has power and power does speak.
  We have also to remember that the nuclear deterrent carries the hope of preventing war. Thus it is our hope that war shall never come; but in the nuclear deterrent we keep thereby the associated nuclear work in rockets, satellites, space research and the like, without which this country's progress in more peaceful ways would be infinitely more slow.
  The Deputy-Chairman: Before the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman) begins his speech, may I say that I presume he will be moving his Amendment. I want to make clear to the Committee that the moving of that Amendment does not either reduce or extend the scope of the debate.
  7.27 p.m.
  Mr. Sydney Silverman: I beg to move,
  That a number, not exceeding 251,000, all ranks, be maintained for the said Service.
  I am much obliged to you, Sir Robert, as I certainly wish to move this Amendment. I wish to begin by offering an apology to the Secretary of State for War and to my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget), who opened for the Opposition, that, although I have given notice to move this Amendment and am now moving it—and at the end of the day hope to divide the Committee upon it—I was not in my place to hear either of their speeches. I do not think I am revealing any secret to the Committee when I say that I was engaged elsewhere trying with others to dissuade the Home Secretary from hanging or killing individually a part of the population of this country which the Government by their policy of collective insecurity are proposing to wipe out in larger numbers. I think hon. Members will understand what I mean.
  I have listened fascinated to the discussion this afternoon. I have heard a number of such discussions in my time. I think this is the first occasion on which I have ventured to take part in one. There are so many hon., right hon. and gallant Members on both sides who know all about the technicalities, the weapons with odd and eccentric names, when we have them, where to use them, exactly how many men we could get if certain circumstances were different from what they were, and how we would deploy them if we had them. It is a very fascinating "Army Game" which far surpasses any competitor it may have or may have had in other departments of our national life. However fascinating, they seem to be conducted in a completely unreal world. They seem to be highly intelligent if disputatious discussions as to what we

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  might do if the world situation were very much different from what the Government themselves in the White Paper confess it to be.
  May I remind the Committee—I hope without disrespect—that although it would be stupid to say that what one gets for one's money would be out of order when spending the money, nevertheless this is a Committee of Supply and all that we are concerned with is whether the Government should be given the money for which they are asking for the purposes they tell us they propose to spend it. Anyway, we are not dealing with any small amount. The Memorandum tells us, in paragraph 98, that the net grant for which Parliamentary approval is sought for the Army alone in this coming financial year is £523,920,200. Unless my arithmetic is sadly at fault, that is rather more than £1½ million every day.
  That would be a very large sum if it stood alone, but it does not. It is only a fractional part of the total expenditure which the Government are inviting the country to embark on in this coming year. That total figure is given in the Defence White Paper as being £1,721 million—or £5 million every day as a peace-time expenditure. These are colossal sums, and every £ of them is inflationary. No one disputes that, for one cannot take £5 million a day out of one's resources without producing anything at all consumable. It is purely inflationary expenditure.
  I am not so simple as to suppose that that is the end of the argument, because of course it is not. A great many expenditures are inflationary. No doubt the welfare services are inflationary because they are purely for consumption and, only to a limited extent, contribute to our productive efficiency. But, when one is dealing with inflationary expenditure on this scale, is it not fantastic that the state of the Committee should be as it is now? [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] Where are all the enthusiastic economisers from whom we hear on every other occasion?
  It may be that after the most careful examination the majority of the Committee may be driven to the conclusion that every penny of it is justified and that we get full value for what we spend. I
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  doubt whether they would come to that conclusion and, if they did, they would not be supported by the Public Accounts Committee which has delivered report after report to the House of Commons calling attention to colossal wasteful expenditure over the years in the Defence Services.
  I am talking about not just wrong estimating or even inflationary wrong estimating. I refer to estimating which postulates a figure at the beginning of the adventure but which is multiplied ten, twenty, forty or fifty times by the time we reach the end of the story. And the end of the story is often itself no good because, after spending it all, the things are abandoned and thrown away.
  These are matters into which it is pertinent to inquire, and the Committee looks at them in this way because so many hon. Members believe that there are two kinds of inflationary expenditure. First, that it is unpatriotic to prevent it and, secondly, that it is unpatriotic to spend it. Meanwhile, in other respects, Parliament is being invited to deal with education, housing, the National Health Service, roads, hospitals, schools—
  The Temporary Chairman (Mr. Ronald Russell): Order. I am afraid that the hon. Member is getting rather away from the Army Estimates.
  Mr. Silverman: I was pointing out that we are asked to allow the Government £523 million for the Army alone and I am commenting on the spirit with which very many hon. Members approach their examination of that expenditure. I am not asking for more money to be spent on the items I mentioned, for I appreciate that it would be out of order to do so. I am merely saying that if hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite were to apply the same spirit of examination and economy to defence expenditure that they are only too ready to apply to the other expenditures I have mentioned it might be that we would get more value for less money.
  After all, what is this money for? It is part of our general expenditure on defence, and it is to play its part in our general policy. Therefore, it is necessary in the Memorandum on the Army to repeat again the ultimate objectives of our defence policy as they are set out in

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  the White Paper. It is permissible to glance at them to see what we are hoping to get from this expenditure. The first page of the Defence White Paper says in three short sentences:
  "The basic objectives of Britain's Defence policy"—
  which obviously must include the Army's defence policy—
  "will remain:

  (a) to maintain the security of this country;

  (b) to carry out our obligations for the protection of British territories overseas and those to whom we owe a special duty by treaty or otherwise;

  (c) to make our contribution to the defence of the free world"—

  whatever that may mean—
  "and the prevention of war in accordance with the arrangements we have with individual countries and under collective security treaties."
  That last sentence contains a rather striking omission, for we are to
  "… make our contribution to … defence … in accordance with the arrangements we have with individual countries and under collective security treaties."
  The Temporary Chairman: The hon. Member really is getting away from the subject of the Army Estimates. That is the subject we are discussing, and we are not having a general discussion on the Defence White Paper.
  Mr. Silverman: With great respect, unless it is going to be said that the money we spend on the Army is not a contribution to our defence policy, I fail to see that we are very far from the object of it.
  When the general global defence policy was being discussed on Monday and Tuesday, I and every hon. Member on this side voted against it. All of us on this side unanimously declared that we had no confidence in it. What I am saying is that if one has not confidence in the whole which includes the proposition, then one has no confidence in the parts. It is true that tonight we are discussing only one of the parts, but if I have no confidence in the general object which this part, like the other parts, is intended to serve, I am entitled to advance that as a reason for reducing that part by 1,000 men in order to call attention to the futility of the objects for which the money is demanded.
  The Temporary Chairman: That is what the hon. Gentleman is not entitled to do, because that concerns the broad aspect of defence policy. He is entitled only to draw attention to the Army's application of the defence policy.
  Mr. Silverman: Of course, I shall come in a moment to the particular part which the Army is intended to play, but, with the greatest possible respect, I ask you, Mr. Russell, to reconsider the Ruling which you have just given if it means that I am not entitled to relate this part of our defence expenditure to the objects of the whole of the defence expenditure. I agree that I should not be within the rules of order if I devoted my speech to a general discussion of the Defence White Paper. I respectfully accept that.
  However, I do not seek to do that. All that I am seeking to do is to put this Army expenditure in its proper perspective and to relate it to the general expenditure of which it forms a part. If I have no confidence that the defence policy as a whole will achieve the first object claimed for it in the Defence White Paper, namely, to maintain the security of this country, that is a reason, is it not, for saying that the Army's portion of that expenditure should not be granted? That is all I seek to do.
  I say that this Estimate should be reduced by 1,000 men because the security of this country will not be furthered by granting the Army the money which it is seeking tonight. This is true, not only of the Army, but of the Royal Air Force and of the Royal Navy, and I have no doubt that in due course Amendments similar to this one will be discussed when we come to those Services. I shall not talk about the Royal Air Force, nor about the Royal Navy. I shall talk about the Army Estimates. But the Army is an integral and inseparable part of the defence policy as a whole.
  As I was saying, no hon. Member on this side on Tuesday had any confidence in the Government's policy behind the money that we are spending on the Army, or on any other defence service, for that matter. Since we on this side expressed that lack of confidence in all of it, I suppose that it must follow that all hon. Members who voted against the defence policy on Tuesday because they had no confidence in it as a whole will,

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  as a matter of logic, vote against these Estimates because clearly they cannot have confidence in the Government's Army policy if they have no confidence in their policy on the Royal Air Force or on the Royal Navy or in the general defence policy of which they form part.
  Mr. Profumo: I am trying to follow the hon. Gentleman's argument because I may have to vote against him on this. Is he saying that simply because the Opposition voted against the defence policy the other night they must vote tonight against the primary objects of these Army Estimates, to Which I understand the hon. Gentleman is speaking? It is said that the Army has three major rôles—to assist the defence of this country—are we to vote against that?—and of the Commonwealth, to fulfil our treaty obligations, and to maintain internal security in those territories which are dependent on us. If that is what the hon. Gentleman proposes to vote against, we want to get into the Lobby pretty quick.
  Mr. Silverman: I am not suggesting that anyone doubts that these ought to be, and perhaps are, the objects of the Army and of the defence forces. What we have no confidence in is the Government's policy on any of them to secure these objects. In other words, my hon. Friends are saying, "We are prepared to vote whatever is necessary for the security of the country, but as we do not believe that the Government's policy is capable of bringing any security to the country we vote against it". If they did not mean that, they had no right to vote against the Government on Tuesday.
  The Temporary Chairman: The hon. Gentleman is right out of order in discussing the merits of the Government's defence policy on the Army Estimates. We are merely discussing the Army Estimates, and I must ask the hon. Gentleman to keep to them.
  Mr. Silverman: I am inviting my right hon. and hon. Friends, who have already declared their complete lack of confidence in the Government's defence policy as a whole, to be logical and consistent and to vote against these Estimates tonight for the reasons which prompted them to vote against the defence policy on Tuesday.
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  I hope that this is a fair argument. With the best will in the world, I do not know the answer to it. I know why I voted against the Government on Tuesday, and I accept your Ruling, Mr. Russell, that I am not entitled to give the reason in this debate. I do not know why my hon. Friends voted against the Government on Tuesday.
  Mr. Profumo: Nor do I.
  Mr. Silverman: I am glad that the right hon. Gentleman and I agree about something. The differences which my hon. Friends expressed were substantial. Perhaps there was enough in them to say, "The policy is not very good. We want a better one. We want to amend this one". But the differences disclosed in that debate were not perhaps sufficient to justify them saying that they had no confidence in the policy at all. But that was for them to decide, and they voted against the defence policy as a whole. I am surprised that it was left to me rather than to my hon. Friends to move this Amendment.
  Why do I say that this Army expenditure, which I want to reduce and which I do not want the Committee to accept, affords no chance of security for this country? I hope that I shall not be prevented from justifying my reason for saying it from the Defence White Paper. As the right hon. Gentleman said, this is the Army's contribution to the security of this country. I wish to draw attention to one sentence, and only one sentence.
  Mr. Profumo: The hon. Gentleman has the wrong document.
  Mr. Silverman: I am glad to see that the right hon. Gentleman's document is bound in a red cover.
  Mr. Profumo: This is the one that we are talking about.
  Mr. Silverman: I am not quoting from the Memorandum on the Army Estimates. On page 5 of the Defence White Paper, there appears this sentence:
  "The Government do not believe that major war could long continue without one side or the other resorting to nuclear weapons."
  They have repeatedly declared that in a nuclear war there is no possibility of defending the 50 million inhabitants of this country, and if the Government are

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  inviting the Committee or the nation to believe that they can secure the security of the country without defending the lives, let alone the property and possessions, of its population, obviously, they are preaching a doctrine that the people would find it very difficult to understand. Is it true that the Government believe that if war started it would not be long before one side or the other resorted to nuclear war? If they do believe that—
  The Temporary Chairman: Order. This is not in the Army Estimates. This is a matter of the global defence of the country, and I must ask the hon. Member to keep to the Army Estimates.
  Mr. Silverman: The point I am making, if I may put it again with patience, is that we are asked to give the Government £525 million to the Army so that the Army may play its part in the security of this country. I am pointing out, and I again suggest, with respect, that it is a legitimate point to make, that if the Government believe that if a war occurred it would be a nuclear war, if they believe, as they have repeatedly declared, that in a nuclear war the population of this country could not be defended, it seems pointless to spend £525 million in equipping the Army, which, on that assumption, would never be allowed to function. That is the point I am making.
  There is no point in equipping ourselves with weapons if they are not the weapons to be used in the war we would expect to fight. There are certain peacetime things, no doubt, certain minor things, no doubt, but if we are talking about the security of this country, obviously, if we expect to be endangered in a nuclear war, against which there is no defence, expenditure on the Army, at any rate to this extent, must be wholly unjustified. That is the point that I am making. Whether it is acceptable or not is for the Committee to decide, but I submit, again with respect, that it is probably not out of order.
  Let me come more closely to the particular function or functions suggested for the Army. I find in these Estimates a reference to the Army's contribution to Civil Defence. It used to spend just under £17 million a year on that, and the right hon. Gentleman is proposing now to increase it by just under £1 million. My figures may not be accurate,
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  but I do not want to detain the Committee by looking up actual references. The figures are of that order. We are to spend on Civil Defence not more than £20 million out of the £525 million that we are spending on the Armed Forces—the Army—in the process of maintaining the security of the country.
  Mr. Profumo: I am trying to find any reference in the Army Estimates to any expenditure on Civil Defence. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman could show me where it is. We are talking about the Memorandum on the Army Estimates, and I cannot find any reference in it at all. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman would say what he is talking about, not in the Defence White Paper, but in the Army Estimates.
  Mr. Silverman: I am not talking about the Defence White Paper. It is perfectly true that we are debating Vote A as a token vote for the Army expenditure generally. That is why the Memorandum talks about the total expenditure and not merely the monies voted in Vote A. If the right hon. Gentleman is saying that no part at all of this £525 million is to be spent on Civil Defence, I will continue my argument on that basis.
  Mr. Profumo: I am asking the hon. Gentleman, so that I can follow him, which part of my Estimates are devoted to Civil Defence.
  Mr. Silverman: The right hon. Gentleman is talking about these Estimates?
  Mr. Profumo: I do not know what the hon. Gentleman is talking about.
  Mr. Silverman: I am talking about the Army Estimates, 1962–63. Very well. If the right hon. Gentleman will look at the index, which perhaps he has not read, he will find the reference he wants. I will find it for him.
  Mr. Profumo: Which page of the Estimates is the hon. Gentleman talking about, so that I can follow him?
  Mr. Charles Loughlin: Will my hon. Friend give way?
  Mr. Silverman: Not for a moment; I want to give the right hon. Gentleman his reference. He will find it on page 87 under Vote 4 (a), and it deals with the Army School of Civil Defence.
  Mr. Profumo: Yes, the School.
  Mr. Silverman: Well, that is Civil Defence. What is the Army School of Civil Defence for? I hope the right hon. Gentleman is satisfied, and I am glad to have been able to point out to him something which his Estimates contain but of which, apparently, he was not aware.
  Mr. Profumo: I am asking which part of Civil Defence the hon. Gentleman was referring to. Now that I know he is talking about the Army School of Civil Defence, I can direct my attention to his remarks.
  Mr. Silverman: I am talking of Civil Defence, to which the only contribution I can find in these Estimates is the Army School. I am saying that it is not enough, and it is one of my reasons for thinking that the Estimates are wrongly based and that we ought not accept them. I was giving the right hon. Gentleman the benefit of the claim in the White Paper, which was that we were going to spend much more on Civil Defence than we are spending on the Army School, but if he will not have it we must leave it like that. The argument would have been fairer if I could have given him the benefit of what he is intending to spend, instead of limiting it to this nominal amount, to which he want me to limit the argument.
  Mr. Zilliacus: I wonder whether the attention of my hon. Friend has been drawn to paragraph 48 of the Defence White Paper, which, under the heading Civil Defence, says:
  "There have been a number of joint civil/military exercises in order to test plans for military aid to the civil power, and joint planning for this purpose is continuing."
  Does not that cover the subject? It involves money, does it not?
  Mr. Silverman: I am much obliged to my hon. Friend. I did not want to refer to that, because I did not want to get in conflict over any more quotations from the Defence White Paper. I prefer to accept it from the right hon. Gentleman that the only contribution that he is prepared to consider to Civil Defence in his statement that we are now debating is the Army School. I am saying that that is disgraceful. If all that we are to spend on Civil Defence out of this vast expenditure is either the limited sum to which
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  the right hon. Gentleman confesses, or the rather larger, but not very much larger, amount of money that is referred to in the Defence White Paper, I am saying that it is absolute hypocrisy to pretend that the monies that we are seeking to raise tonight are intended for the security of the population of this country. Quite patently, they are not.
  Now let us come to the document which is called the Memorandum on Army Estimates. I apologise for my amateur approach to these highly professional matters, but I hope I am in order in this debate on Vote A in referring to the document which the War Office has put out and which they have entitled "Memorandum on Army Estimates, 1962–63," because, as I understand it, in this document they are telling us what they hope to get for the money. It is an attractive document. I do not know which firm of public relations experts assisted the War Office to produce it. It contains some attractive photographs showing us what the Army will be doing and the function which it is to perform in the security of our country, for which purpose the money is required.
  Before it begins to tell us anything at all in print, it shows a photograph of two British infantrymen in Berlin. They are standing by a brick wall. They are holding weapons, weapons which they can hold in the hand. To my un-instructed eye, there appear to be bayonets attached to the weapons. Whose security are they defending? Ours? I think not. They are certainly not defending anyone's security in Berlin. Does the right hon. Gentleman invite the Committee to say that, if any attack were made by anyone on West Berlin at this moment, our infantry forces in Berlin could do anything to defend it? Is that seriously proposed? Could they do a single thing to defend themselves against a major attack? They could not, could they? They are there as a presence, and their own safety depends on the assumption that no one will attack them. If anybody did attack them, they would be completely lost.
  It is said that for our general security—I hope I am not straying too far from the Army Estimates—it is necessary that such an attack on West Berlin should be

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  prevented. Here we come to the essentials of the matter. It is quite possible to negotiate a settlement in Berlin which would make it not necessary for these soldiers to be there. When my hon. Friend the Member for Dudley (Mr. Wigg) was speaking, something was said about what was and what was not official Labour Party policy. We are not committing ourselves, are we, to embarking on a war for the defence of Berlin in that way? What is the Labour Party's official policy about this? What can it be except to attempt to negotiate a settlement to withdraw all foreign troops of any kind out of Berlin, out of West Germany and out of East Germany and negotiate an area of disengagement in central Europe including Germany?
  This is not the place to debate foreign policy, and I am not debating it. I am only saying that there are other ways of securing Berlin from attack and the people of Berlin from loss of their freedom and of achieving, in fact, the security which the present position may by some people be thought to give to our own situation. This could all be done more easily and more satisfactorily, the need for soldiers would be reduced and the expenditure would be less, if we approached this problem of self-defence in a more sensible and intelligent way.
  We are told in the Memorandum about the weapons with which the Army is to be equipped. There is a picture of Chieftain, a new tank, a wonderful weapon. We are told for our comfort that it is already on order, from which I infer that at present we have none. We are told about an anti-tank weapon, the Vigilant, which is to come after we have the Chieftains which we have not got so far. All this is in a fantastic area of argument. It has nothing to do with the real picture of the world which is presented by the Government in the Defence White Paper.
  There is the question of how many men we are to put into Germany. Here again, we come back to the argument about what is official Labour Party policy. Our policy is a policy of disengagement. I have heard my right hon. and hon. Friends on the Front Bench advocate that in foreign affairs debates. What then is the use of saying that we
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  must put 80,000 men into Germany? What for? In order to do what? In order to defend whom against what in a situation in which it is common ground that, if a war did take place, it would be all-out nuclear war? What good would they do there? It is said that they are to be equipped with tactical nuclear weapons. Are they? These euphemisms must be examined carefully.
  What is a tactical nuclear weapon? When we asked for a definition, we were told that whether a nuclear weapon was tactical or strategic depended not on its size or who used it but on the purpose for which it was being used. If that is so, tactical nuclear weapons could be of any size. But let us suppose that the intention is to exclude the biggest and the medium-sized bombs and only the smaller ones are to be included. What are the smaller ones?
  We know that what is now described as a tactical nuclear weapon is an atomic bomb many times the size of the bomb which brought destruction to Hiroshima. Is it really the policy of the Government or the policy of the official Opposition that 80,000 British soldiers shall be stationed in Germany armed with tactical nuclear weapons of that size and description? If that is the proposal, is it still contended that these weapons could be used without leading at once to total nuclear war in which this country admittedly would have no security? We have not heard. The Government say that a great many soldiers should be brought home and that we should have a mobile central strategic force. We heard my hon. Friend the Member for Dudley analyse that proposition with regard to Hong Kong. What security is intended behind all this?
  We know what is in the Government's mind. It is set out in the Defence White Paper, to which I must refer again:
  "We can expect no change in the relentless pressure of every kind from the Communist powers in pursuit of their long-term aim of bringing all mankind within their system"
  and the Government say that they sincerely wish to prevent that. But that is a dishonest statement. It is put into a Defence White Paper and it is related to Army expenditure as well as the other expenditures on the defence forces, the implication being that we must follow

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  that policy at whatever cost, at whatever danger, at whatever sacrifices—and the sacrifices contemplated are very great—and that we do it in order to defend ourselves and those with whom we are allied against the Communists' long-term aim of winning all mankind within their system.
  The implication is that the Communist threat—as it is described, no doubt correctly, and I take no exception to that—is intended to be secured by military force, by attack, by offence. But we all know that that is not true. All this expenditure we have been examining tonight, and the expenditure we will examine when the Estimates for the other Services come along, make some kind of nightmarish sense only on the basis that what we are faced with is a military threat from the Communist powers. If we are not faced with any such threat, then all this argument is out of focus. To borrow a term from the football field, it is offside. It is related to a situation which everybody knows to be unreal.
  Nobody on the Government Front Bench—except, perhaps, the Foreign Secretary, who, if he were a Member of this House, might be the exception, although I am not sure about that—believes that the danger of war in the world—and it is a very great danger—comes from some intention by the Soviet Union ox some other Communist power to bring the world under its sway by offensive military action. Nobody believes that any more.
  The late Aneurin Bevan put it in a phrase that has often been quoted. I take leave to use it again. He said that the menace of Communism was a social challenge and not a military threat. It was put less dramatically but equally forcefully by the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Hall Green (Mr. Aubrey Jones) in his speech during the defence debate. I have not the right hon. Gentleman's speech with me, and I do not want to delay the Committee long about it, but we all know that the true perils are very different perils. They may be even more dangerous perils, but they are not the perils of military attack, for which we are preparing ourselves in the knowledge that, if that were the situation, there would be no possibility of victory and only little of survival.
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  If we go on wasting our resources in this way, year after year after year, we shall not be able to meet the social challenge of the other half of the world. We have to approach these matters in a wholly different way, as, to do him justice, the Prime Minister has been trying to do in the last year or two, although without very great success. But he still sticks to it, and we all support him in it. The Government's defence policy is related to some nightmarish world and is divorced from reality.
  We shall divide the Committee tonight. We do not believe that if one has no confidence in a defence system one has any right to allow the Government to have one penny or one man in support of it. This is not because we are inspired—if I may use a phrase from another connection—by any purpose prejudicial to the safety or interest of this country, but because we believe in the interests of our country, because we do not want to see it trailing behind others, either economically, politically or in any other way, and because we do not believe that this is a small nation, a minor Power on the downgrade.
  It will be that if we go on as we are, but we believe that this country, instead of trailing behind this nuclear power or that nuclear power in an endeavour somehow or other to be in the picture, could and should place itself at the head of those nations—now rapidly becoming a majority in the world—who want to pursue a policy of relaxation of tension and of co-existence, with friendly but no doubt relentless rivalry between one system and another.
  We want to see our country great and fulfilling the part which it used to fill at the head of the liberal and progressive nations, and not at the head of a materialist force we cannot maintain. We could do it, and in doing so could give the world new hope. It is with that purpose that I move the Amendment.
  8.17 p.m.
  Sir Richard Glyn: It is always fascinating to watch the spectacle of the red flag being daubed with blue and white to make it seem like a Union Jack. I am not going to attempt to follow the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman) in the ramifications of his explorations of what I regard as foreign policy and other

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  matters, but I wish to make one reference to what he said about nuclear weapons, because it is rather important.
  He quoted correctly a few lines from the Defence White Paper to the effect that a major war could not long continue without one side or the other resorting to nuclear weapons. From that moment, he consistently confused nuclear weapons with nuclear war. I think that we have arrived at a point of time in army training and equipment when it is important that these two things should be well distinguished. I hope that my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State will say something about this, because it is important.
  All nuclear powers now are fast equipping their armies with tactical or battlefield nuclear weapons which are not bombs for the most part; they are missiles which are either aimed or guided, in some cases in the form of ammunition for large calibre cannon. These can be delivered more accurately on the whole than can bombs and are intended for use on the battlefield. Considering the money that has been spent on them by America or Russia, there can be very little doubt that they will be used on the battlefield and, since both nations are most anxious not to have escalation to a general nuclear war, we can only presume that their experts believe, as do many of ours, that these weapons can be used without such escalation following.
  This is a matter of opinion, but I point out to the Committee that these tactical battlefield nuclear weapons and nuclear ammunition for existing weapons are becoming more and more common and more and more interwoven with the conventional forces of all the major armies. Whether that is acceptable or not, it is a fact.
  Mr. S. Silverman: Are we to understand that the hon. Gentleman reads that passage in the Defence White Paper differently from the way in which I read it and that he thinks that it does not mean what it says, namely, that if war broke out it would shortly become general nuclear war? He says, quite rightly, that these battlefield tactical weapons are becoming more universal. Would he tell us something about the size? Am I right in saying that some of them, still regarded as battlefield
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  weapons, are many times the size of those used on Hiroshima and Nagasaki?
  Sir Richard Glyn: This is a rather technical point, but may I put the hon. Gentleman's mind at rest by saying that a battlefield weapon is a weapon for use on the battlefield? The place where it is used is more essential to the definition than the precise size of the explosion. The use of these weapons tactically is complicated. I do not wish to detain the Committee on this topic, but it is important not to use too large a one, nor to burst it too near the ground. These weapons are used for special purposes in particular ways. The great majority of them will be rather small. The tendency is to make them progressively smaller as it becomes technically possible to do so. The Americans are working on surprisingly small ones.
  Some right hon. and hon. Members believe—this is a point of view which I can understand—that the use of these weapons must lead to escalation. There is also the contrary point of view which seems to be held by all the nuclear nations. They are all progressively preparing these battlefield nuclear weapons, and that includes the British Army.
  The hon. Member for Nelson and Colne is entitled to his view that there is no threat to world peace from Soviet military power. He does not explain why the Russians have increased their army by 800,000 to 2½ million. However, I will leave this point, because I realise that I am straying outside our White Paper. I should dearly love to debate the Russian Defence and Army Estimates, if it were in order to do so. It would be a fascinating exercise.
  Coming back to the subject of the debate, I congratulate my right hon. Friend on the general excellence of his deployment of the resources available to him and also on the lucidity with which he explained them. I want immediately to refer to pensions, which have already been mentioned. I am one of the original signatories of Motion No. 66, which draws attention to the plight of retired officers, other ranks and widows. I hope that something will be said on this subject in winding up. My right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence has used some rather hopeful words. I hope that it will be possible to do something

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  soon and that when it is done it will be done with full consideration for humanity and for the decencies of life.
  I turn to the very interesting speech of the hon. and learned Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget), which I very greatly enjoyed. I was particularly interested in his assessment of the need for 80,000 men in Germany which, coming from the Dispatch Box in this important debate, must obviously be a new and more precise definition of official Socialist policy. What was even more fascinating was where he said he was going to get them from. He said that we have 40,000 troops in what he described as outposts. That is roughly right. He proposed to take 30,000 of them away, leaving 10,000, or one-quarter of the present number, to carry out all the tasks and obligations at present being carried out by the whole.
  The hon. and learned Member did not indicate precisely where the 30,000 men should come from. He mentioned Hong Kong but did not go into further details. As I understand it, we now have about 20,000 men in the Far East and about the same number distributed between the Mediterranean, the Middle East and Africa. On the policy advocated by the hon. and learned Gentleman, we should have to denude one of these two areas completely and halve the troops available in the one which we did not wholly denude in order to get the 30,000 men which it is, on the hon. and learned Gentleman's official statement, Labour Party policy to put into Germany.
  The hon. and learned Gentleman did not say—I think that he should have done—which area he would entirely denude of troops, whether it would be the Far East or the Mediterranean, the Middle East and Africa. Nor did he indicate how he would distribute the paltry 10,000 he would leave.
  Mr. Paget: The hon. Gentleman did not follow the whole theme of my speech. I assure him that this is not new. We have said from the Dispatch Box for some years that the bases should be transferred from an Army commitment to a Naval and Air Force commitment. It cannot be done tomorrow. It takes a certain amount of time for reorganisation, but there are 200,000 people in the Navy and in the Air Force.
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  They are doing jobs which in some cases appear to us to be somewhat less real than the immediate fulfilment of our N.A.T.O. commitments. That is how we believe that this realignment of the forces should take place.
  Sir Richard Glyn: I want to be very fair to the hon. and learned Gentleman. He gave us a fascinating picture of sailors in tanks helping the civil power to maintain order in Hong Kong. This was a delightful picture. We all know that at one time tanks were known as land battleships. Sailors were of the utmost use in the expediton to restore peace at the time of the Boxer Rebellion, but I do not remember them doing anything on this scale since then.
  Mr. Paget: I assure the hon. Gentleman that sailors are very adaptable. Just as the Army runs ships, and runs them very well, so I am sure that the Navy could without much difficulty in quite a short time manage some tanks which might be necessary to maintain civil order in such an operation.
  Sir Richard Glyn: I will not continue with this much more, except to point out that in helping a civil power to maintain order, communications such as walkie-talkies, are required. I do not know how many of these the Navy and the Air Force normally have. I am sure the Committee will be interested to know that 15 per cent. of the total number of sailors and airmen, namely, 30,000 out of 200,000, are to be committed to this kind of police rôle, according to the new official Socialist policy. I think that this will be greeted with some choice comments in certain Air Force and Navy circles.
  I only wish that the hon. Member for Dudley (Mr. Wigg) was here. He had a fascinating duel with the hon. and learned Gentleman which at one time reminded me of the duel between the elephant and the whale. They could not agree about which had backed the wrong horse for the Derby. However, I think that they both backed the wrong horse in this debate, because I did not like the views of the hon. Member for Dudley about what to do in Germany any more than I liked the views of the hon. and learned Member about how to denude what he described as the outposts and replace these trained soldiers with sailors in tanks and with airmen.
  Mr. Tom Driberg: The hon. Member ridicules that idea, but has he studied the part played by the Royal Marines inland during the Korean War?
  Sir Richard Glyn: I have every respect for the Marines. I think I can truthfully say that I think more highly of them than some sailors do. However, we are not dealing with Marines. The hon. and learned Gentleman expressly mentioned sailors, but I do not think that the hon. Member for Barking (Mr. Driberg) was in the Chamber at the time.
  I come to the White Paper. It has been generally agreed that our commitments in Europe are quite different from those in what the hon. and learned Gentleman called the outposts. As regards outpost work, we must stress mobility and speed. I referred to this last year. What happened in Kuwait is quite a useful lesson. We got there first. Because we got there first, nothing happened. People may argue about what would have happened if we had not got there in time, but the plain fact is that an aggressor in that part of the world—not always very stable politically—dare not risk an initial defeat. He depends on a quick victory. He assesses the possibilities of a quick victory before we arrive. Our arrival immediately changes the picture. What happened in Kuwait may happen in other places. If we get there first, the whole thing is off. This is evidence of the value of speed in fire brigade operations.
  I should like to say just a word about the battlefield nuclear weapons to which I have referred before. These are of very great importance to any Army which, like that of N.A.T.O., is not considering an aggresive or offensive move. Anyone on the defensive in modern war is aware that the aggressor can choose his time and place for an attack, and, if the aggressor has a good air force, as the Russians have, he can ensure local air supremacy over the area of which one might call the blitzkrieg. Therefore our defenders would be fighting in adverse air conditions which creates difficulties, especially for movement of reserves, and the only appropriate counter-balance to this might be the use of battlefield nuclear weapons. That is, I believe, why the Americans and, to an extent, ourselves are going in for these weapons.
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  I think that the time may come, whether we like it or not, when it will have to be accepted that heavy artillery duties will have to be carried out with missiles with nuclear capacity. They may have conventional explosive warheads, but they will also have nuclear warheads, too. As time goes on, not only heavy artillery tasks but medium artillery tasks may have to be carried out by weapons, some cannons, some missiles, which have an alternative nuclear capacity. We have to live with this fact, and its effects must be considered.
  One effect of this on our Army is greatly to intensify the need for a very high standard of training. If we have to contend with adverse air conditions, and split up into small groups, as may have to be done in order not to offer tempting targets for the enemy's battlefield nuclear weapons, then a tremendously high standard of individual and unit training is necessary, and this, to my mind, necessitates long-term engagements.
  This fact alone makes it quite profitless to consider an engagement of under three years, which, I believe, is the period of Russian conscription. Hon. Gentlemen who think that we may be driven back to conscription, which I personally hope we shall not, must consider this factor and bear in mind that in future, as these developments happen, conscription must mean conscription for a substantial period. I am not talking about people who may possibly be called to the Colours under the obligations of the new Act. I am talking about a possible reversal of our whole national policy and bringing in conscription again, a policy which has been advocated, but which I personally hope we shall never adopt. I believe that if we had to do so, we should have to call up people for not less than two and a half years, which would be a very severe degree of call-up.
  The hon. Member for Dudley was, rather unfortunately, very critical of the standard of recruits which are being accepted for the British Army. His experience is not at all the same as mine. When I recently visited a recruiting station on the edge of London I was

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  interested to find that a substantial proportion of applicants who would probably have been willing to join were actually being dissuaded from doing so. People who were obviously misfits were politely turned away. It is very difficult to ascertain the proportion, but from figures I was given there it would appear that a quarter or even as much as a third of people who might have been jollied into signing are persuaded that it was not the best thing for them to do. I think that attitude is quite right.
  As we get nearer our minimum target of 165,000 Regulars, which I hope we shall reach in twelve months' time or perhaps less, I should like to think that we would become more selective about those whom we accept as recruits. There is nothing better for the morale of any unit or force than for it to be known that it does not accept anybody and that it is, indeed, careful about those whom it takes, Should we ever arrive at a position numerically where we are able to get that feeling about the Army—when there was a certain degree of anxiety on the part of young men about whether they would be accepted—that would entirely change the whole psychological aspect of the matter. I believe that if that could be done we should get back to the old long-term type of Regular Army that we had in 1914, which was the best Army in the world at that time and probably comparatively the best that we have ever had. That is what we should aim at.
  There is a point which has caused me a little concern. It has been said that we are lowering our top total from 180,000 to rather less. I very much hope that any reduction in this regard will be at the expense of Administrative Services and not involve further amalgamations of major units. I should very much regret it if that became necessary. We have already had some slashing reductions and amalgamations. Historically famous units have gone into suspended animation. This should be stopped even if it means holding units 5–10 per cent. under strength, for that would be preferable.
  I should think that this is where the "Ever-readies" will come into their own. If this was not the case, and if eventually Regular units recruited up to 100 per cent. of their strength and
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  trained their own specialists, there would then be no call at all for the "Ever-readies". But I should like to think that the "Ever-readies" are going to be a permanent feature of the Territorial Army, and so I hope there will always be room for them. It seems to me that this would fit in with keeping a skeleton of major units which if 100 per cent. up to strength would be rather above the actual total for the Army at any time.
  The Territorial Army is recovering from the difficulties caused by the recent reorganisation. Reorganisation always means disorganisation to start with. However, I believe that the difficulties are being overcome. I think that the "Ever-readies" will be a very popular corps as soon as they can be signed on. I know many places where people are anxious to sign on but are merely waiting to learn the conditions and so forth.
  There has been reference to Civil Defence. I tread here with some delicacy, because I consider that the Territorial Army has an alternative rôle in Civil Defence. I should like now to speak of the Territorial Army's part in Civil Defence, which I apprehend is in order on Estimates which include the cost of the Territorial Army.
  I believe that the joint exercises which have been referred to—they have been going on for years, and I took part in some of them while serving before I came to the House—show how vital communications are. If one assumes that the worst has happened and that there has been an incident, all normal communications will have gone. The need then is for motor cars equipped with wireless sets and manned by drivers and signallers who know the procedure for netting. I believe that this task could be fulfilled immediately by Territorial Army units which have a substantial supply of such equipment. Regular units may also be available.
  A very great deal of command and control, especially what we know as third echelon work, must be done through the Army. In America and, I understand, Russia all Civil Defence comes under the Defence Ministry. I wonder whether attention has been given to the possibility of removing the active part of Civil Defence from the Home Office to the Ministry of Defence, which would be in

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  many ways, I believe, better equipped to handle it. I throw this out just as a suggestion. I think it might be worth considering in the light of the results of the exercises.
  Just a word about the proposed practice mobilisation on the part of the Territorial Army. I am delighted to hear that this will include the movement of Territorial units to Germany where they will carry out an exercise. I think that is absolutely first rate. We have done it on a small scale before. I think it is excellent that it should be done now on a bigger scale.
  I only hope that a number of administrative difficulties for the Territorials in being stationed a long way from home will be taken into consideration. I think it would be almost essential that they should be allowed to send advance parties some days ahead, which might possibly mean special aeroplane arrangements, but without such special arrangements I think there may be a good deal of pain and grief. After all, it is quite a new thing to do this on a large scale, and I do suggest that consideration should be given to the administrative difficulties which may be caused.
  I do not want to detain the Committee because many other Members wish to speak, but there is one last point I would make. I refer to buildings. I do hope that everything is being done to achieve economy in these. I speak now as a farmer. No farmer would dream of paying the prices which are habitually paid by the Army for garages, stores, and other large buildings of that nature. We would not dream of it. One of the reasons for this is that a number of firms which specialise in making prefabricated buildings for ordinary agricultural machinery can supply them to us cheaply—at any rate, far more cheaply than any contractor putting up such buildings by conventional methods.
  I am certain that if the Army were to approach one of these firms of manufacturers who make prefabricated agricultural buildings the firm could be persuaded to make the buildings a few feet wider or higher or lower, whatever is needed, to take weapons or vehicles which the Army requires to have housed. After all, agricultural machinery is every bit as complex as most warlike stores. A combine harvester, for instance, is not a thing to treat lightly, and I am sure
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  the same style of buildings as these agricultural buildings would be quite adequate for the Army's needs, and very much cheaper, especially if arrangements could be made to have them prefabricated in large numbers. I should like to leave that thought with my right hon. Friend.
  I wind up by saying that although, like everybody else, I have points of reservation in regard to the White Paper and the Estimates, I believe that all in all we must give credit to the Secretary of State for having handled and distributed the available resources very well.
  8.43 p.m.
  Mr. Michael Foot: The hon. Gentleman the Member for Dorset, North (Sir Richard Glyn) referred at the beginning of his speech and later to the question of the use of tactical nuclear weapons on the battlefield. That is one of the principal subjects to which I wish to refer in my remarks, and therefore I shall come back in a few minutes to what he said about it, but first of all I should like to make some more general comments on the debate we have had, almost all of which I have heard.
  I heard my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget). He had a bit of a rough time at moments, but he also gave the Government a very rough time on the question of the payment or the non-payment of the troops under the latest Government pay pause for the Army. I thought he made the most devastating attack on the Government in that respect. He accused the Government of having cheated. He used language which could hardly be strengthened, but I must say that I think that if the Opposition Front Bench are going to attack the Government they could be more effective in their attack of the Government if they had some people sitting behind them. I do not complain because there are only a few people here in the Committee now. I have addressed even smaller meetings than this in my time, and I dare say I shall again, but I think that if the Opposition are going to attack the Government they could make a very much better attack. It would look more as though there were something real in the attack if there were a few more hon. Members present on this side of the Chamber.

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  After all, this is one of the most important debates of the year. We are discussing how we are to spend £500 million. If the Labour Party in the House of Commons does not think it worth turning up to discuss expenditure of £500 million, there are a large number of Labour people throughout the country who think that it is. There has been talk in the debate about cutting garrisons. There has never been a garrison cut like this one—so depleted that there is nothing left. Why should people outside care what is going on in the House of Commons if hon. Members do not care? Many complaints are made, and the Leader of the Opposition was complaining the other day, about the failure of newspapers to report Parliament. I am all in favour of those complaints. I think Chat they should report Parliament much more fully than they do, but if hon. Members are not interested in what is going on in Parliament they cannot complain if the newspapers are not interested.
  This happens very frequently. The attendance of hon. Members in this debate has been a disgrace to the House of Commons. It is utterly disgraceful that Members of Parliament should think that they have almost no obligation to turn up at a debate such as this. We know that Members of Parliament have many other functions to perform, but if their other functions have become so important that we have fewer than twenty Members to discuss the expenditure of £500 million—and there have been hardly more than twenty Members present throughout the debate—and if this is the state to which the House of Commons has come, no one has a right to complain if people outside have a contempt for the House of Commons.
  What the official Opposition are doing, partly by the way in which they organise things in the House, is to help bring the House of Commons into contempt. I therefore protest very strongly at the way in which this is being done. Indeed, if the Opposition have such strong condemnations to make of the Government as were rightly made by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Northampton, he ought to have had more than three or four people here to support him in this Committee when he made it. I have said before on other
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  occasions, but it does not alter the fact that I think it is the truth, that we shall not sustain public interest in the House of Commons if this is the best that Members of Parliament can do in discussing not only the expenditure of £500 million but in discussing a subject which is more baffling and more complicated, and becoming more so each year, than probably any other subject with which the human race has ever had to deal.
  I am sure that hon. Members opposite and hon. and right hon. Members on the Opposition Front Bench hold their views quite sincerely about the use of nuclear weapons, when they should be used, how they should be used and whether their use would develop into a general nuclear war. They hold their views sincerely on these questions as we Members below the Gangway hold our views, but is the House of Commons to say that we have so little interest in the matter that we are not even going to meet and debate and exchange arguments and listen?
  The hon. Member for Dorset, North—and I say this in no derogatory fashion—takes a complacent view about tactical weapons. I do not say that he likes them, but he takes the view that they are not anything like so dangerous as many people have described them to be. The hon. Member has studied the matter very carefully, but I hope to put against him in a few minutes an authority which the Committee should regard as even more eminent than the hon. Member on this subject.
  In one way or another we are spending some part of the money which is to be voted tonight on equipping our troops in Europe, in the danger zone, with weapons which my hon. Friend the Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman) has said are probably a good deal bigger than the Hiroshima weapon, though the troops may be getting smaller ones as well. Those they have at present are certainly a good deal bigger than the weapon used at Hiroshima.
  For the House of Commons to say, "We do not need to discuss that very much" is disgraceful. If the House of Commons is not prepared to discuss these matters fully, hon. Members must

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  not complain if people say that they do not pay much respect to the House of Commons.
  Mr. Richard Marsh: My hon. Friend is tending to get a little sanctimonious about this. There are occasions when he is not in the House because of other commitments but other hon. Members are here. This is one of the occasions when he is present and other hon. Members are not. My hon. Friend is making a valid point, but he is tending to labour it a little too heavily.
  The Temporary Chairman: The hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. M. Foot) should start to discuss the Estimates.
  Mr. Foot: If I may reply briefly to the intervention by my hon. Friend the Member for Greenwich (Mr. Marsh), I do not think that I was sanctimonious. I said that hon. Members had other occupations. No doubt, I offend as well, although I think I do so a good deal less than many hon. Members. I try, however, to attend the debates. I even do the rare thing of attending a debate in which I do not try to speak, which is almost unheard of in the House nowadays.
  I am sure that my hon. Friend, who is a very good attender of the House, too, agrees with me that if that is the best that the House of Commons can do in discussing the expenditure of £500 million and the use of such weapons as little Hiroshima or big Hiroshima bombs, the whole apparatus which produces this result is inflicting the greatest possible injury upon Parliament. The Minister had a right to a much bigger attendance to hear the discussion of the Estimates which he has presented.
  Let me put some questions to the right hon. Gentleman. I shall come later to a further reference to the tactical nuclear weapons, but I should like to know from the Minister whether the Army has any interest in the test which took place at Nevada?
  Mr. Profumo Mr. Profumo indicated dissent.
  Mr. Foot: The right hon. Gentleman shakes his head. In that case, perhaps that is all the answer. Are we to understand that the weapons tested at Nevada have nothing to do with tactical nuclear weapons? Were any weapons tested which would be in any way supplied to
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  the Army? If so, under which part of the Estimates do they fall? Who pays for the tests in Nevada? Does part of the cost come out of the Army Estimates? If so, how is it concealed in the Estimates? I could not discover it. If the Minister says that this has nothing to do with him, we will have to ask the other Departments. If, however, it has something to do with him, does he propose to have, or to assist in having, any further underground tests?
  I should like also to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether any of the money which he is asking us to vote to him will be devoted to providing assistance for the Americans in their Christmas Island tests. Perhaps this is a matter which we will have to raise with the Air Ministry when we debate the Air Estimates on Monday, but we want to know exactly how these tests are being arranged and whether any of the Estimates will refer to them.
  The main part of what I wanted to say concerns the question of the dangers of the tactical nuclear weapons, which now feature strongly in the whole apparatus and plan for the operations of the British Army in Europe. I listened carefully to what was said from the Opposition Front Bench on these matters. The Opposition Front Bench have, I understand, two main criticisms of the general way in which the Government run the Army. The first main criticism is that the War Office is weakening the support for N.A.T.O. much too much. The second criticism is that there is too great a reliance on atomic or tactical nuclear weapons, although the Opposition Front Bench do not say that it would rely on them at all. They say that there is too great a reliance upon them. These seem to be the two principal tactical arguments—I suppose they might be strategic as well—advanced by the members of the Opposition Front Bench about the Government. They go on to say, in effect, that their view of the matter—the view of the Opposition—is supported by the Americans and that the Government are somewhat out of step in this respect.
  With respect to the military authorities on the Opposition Front Bench, I think that they were very unwise to press this argument because it is not one which will stand up very long. After all, the forces in Europe are now controlled by

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  General Norstad, who gives the orders. To some extent he gives the orders to the British Army as well as to other armies, and therefore I think that for right hon. and hon. Gentlemen to base their main opposition on the claim that there is a great gulf between what they are proposing and what the Government are proposing—and that the American administration and General Norstad himself are on their side against the Government—is to put an argument which I do not think will last. It will be destroyed. It is being partly destroyed by statements being made by the American Government, and so it is foolish to base a great case on a technical claim which can easily be exploded.
  If General Norstad says that he is quite satisfied with the balance between the nuclear weapons and the others, what happens to the claim? Or if the American President says that he is in favour of Britain having an independent nuclear deterrent, what happens to the claim?
  Mr. Gordon Walker: We stick to it.
  Mr. Foot: The right hon. Gentleman says that we stick to it. As a recent convert to his view, I am glad to hear that my right hon. Friend will stick to it.
  What I was saying—I am entitled to say it and I think it good advice even though he may not like it—was that it is not a good thing for the Opposition to base their attack upon the Government on a claim that they have a superior knowledge of the point of view of the American administration. I think that a very unwise thing to do and in some respects I think that the Government have good grounds for complaint. If one has been licking somebody's boots for a long time and one gets a kick in the teeth it might seem harsh. It would be harsh for the Government were that the situation with America. So I do not think it wise of my hon. Friends to base a case on those grounds.
  There is, of course, the argument on grounds of principle concerning tactical nuclear weapons. I shall not argue the general case in which my hon. Friends believe. We are opposed to all nuclear weapons. We think that they are an entirely new kind of weapon which seems to be a perfection of the boomerang and which will come back to hit us.
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  We think that we can establish this argument. When we debate the Air Estimates we shall argue the whole case of the so-called balance of terror. If the balance of terror worked successfully, as the Government claim, they would not need an Army at all. All that would be necessary would be to use the supreme weapon. If it is true that the threat of the great deterrent will always work, it could be used in any circumstances. However, we shall discuss that more general question when we debate the Air Estimates.
  I wish to deal specifically with the question of the tactical nuclear weapons with which, to a great degree, the British Army is armed. Right hon. and hon. Members on the Opposition Front Bench say that there is excessive reliance on these weapons, although they do not say that they would get rid of them altogether. I have always believed that in some respects the distribution of these tactical nuclear weapons throughout Europe constitutes an even greater danger of promoting war than miscalculation about the strategic deterrent itself. Nobody believes that there cannot be any possibility of miscalculation in these matters.
  If we multiply the number of weapons, weapons which are not small but which can cause huge devastation, and put them more and more into Europe and spread them along this frontier—the Russians of course will do the same on their side—this multiplies enormously the possibilities of miscalculation. It multiplies enormously the possibilities of a war starting. If a war started in Central Europe by the dropping of a bomb the size of that dropped on Hiroshima—some are bigger—it might be thought by the other side that this was an opening of a general war. The hon. Member for Dorset, North, said that he did not believe very much in the escalation story.
  Sir Richard Glyn: I said that, whether we liked it or not, these weapons were there and that although the countries are determined that there should not be escalation, they cannot know that for sure. I agree that the experts are in conflict over this.
  Mr. Foot: I hope I have understood the hon. Member aright. I do not

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  think that the fact that various countries have put weapons there means that they do not believe in the possibility of escalation. They have put them there even though there is the possibility of escalation. That is what I complain about. Because of the possibility—indeed the certainty—that if one of these bombs were used it would escalate into nuclear war, I would take all these weapons away.
  The hon. Member said, "Whether we like it or not" these weapons are there, but I do not like it and I want them taken away. I should take them away unilaterally. I would have all tactical nuclear weapons taken out of Europe, even unilaterally. More and more people who have studied the matter are coming to recognise that it is a matter which should be at least considered. That is one of the reasons why I complain that hon. Members do not treat these matters seriously. I can understand why hon. Members do not pay much attention to what I say about military affairs for I have not much military experience, but as a citizen I try to understand what is happening. The curious thing is that some of the people who are coming more and more to support the views which my hon. Friend the Member for Nelson and Colne and I hold are some of the greatest living experts.
  On the general question of the deterrent, we have on our side the inventor of radar. On the question of nuclear tactical weapons in Europe the view I have just expressed, that we should consider withdrawing all these weapons even unilaterally, is very nearly expressed by the article which many hon. Members will have read by the chief scientific adviser to the Government in these matters, Sir Solly Zuckerman, "Judgment and Control in Modern Warfare." Some of us raised the question of judgment and control in modern warfare and argued that these nuclear weapons banished all judgment and control. Now all judgment and control is being seriously discussed by the chief scientific adviser to the Government.
  He comes to the view that it is extremely difficult to control any of these nuclear weapons. He has said:
  "It is essential, therefore, that the armoury of which we dispose in order to defend ourselves in field warfare does not contain within
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  itself trip-wires which unwittingly set into operation the whole panoply of strategic deterrence."
  He says further:
  "The very existence of tactical nuclear weapons is thus the most urgent challenge that has ever been presented to military judgment and control. As weapons to deter aggression, they serve a very precise purpose; the context of field warfare in which they might actually be used is an entirely different matter."
  Obviously I cannot read the whole article but if, as Sir Solly Zuckerman says, the invention of the tactical nuclear weapon constitutes the greatest challenge, then I do not think that the Committee is discussing that challenge in the way that it should. The article continues:
  "It seems to me, therefore, that when we talk about the potential use and effects of nuclear weapons, we must avoid the conceptual framework derived from the military terminology of pre-nuclear warfare. One may fairly ask what meaning there is to the idea of using nuclear weapons 'to defend our territories and peoples'. One can deter with nuclear weapons. Can one defend?"
  The argument as to whether one can deter is a different one which comes more under the heading of the Air Estimates. After all, one must always prove that one can always deter, because one error may throw the world into oblivion. Sir Solly Zuckerman is clear on this point. He points out that tactical nuclear weapons in Europe are not defensive weapons and that one cannot use them as such. He asks if one can defend with them.
  Mr. Paget: Can one really think of a better defensive weapon than one which brings the whole battle to a standstill? I read Sir Solly Zuckerman's article and I could not quite follow the conclusion he drew.
  Mr. Foot: I am sorry that my hon. and learned Friend did not understand the article, but that does not depreciate my appreciation of what Sir Solly Zuckerman had to say. It is clear that he is saying that these weapons are so difficult to control that, in turn, it is difficult to ensure that there will not be an error. If my hon. and learned Friend does not appreciate that, I can read further from the article.
  Mr. Paget: I read it with great interest and I entirely agreed with much of it, for it is very similar to the vew which I formed. But if one uses these weapons

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  the control of the battle becomes possible. From a morale point of view, I suppose that it would be almost impossible to get anyone to come out of their hole and, thus, the battle would have stopped. Why it is not an effective defence I fail to understand.
  Mr. Foot: In that case my hon. and learned Friend has not properly read the article. Sir Solly Zuckerman is saying that these weapons become very dangerous, possibly to the point when they might be let off by accident, in haste or in heat.
  Mr. Paget: Really !
  Mr. Foot: That is what Zuckerman says.
  Mr. Paget: He does not.
  Mr. Foot: I can quote whole passages of the article in which he describes how human fallibility can become greater and greater.
  Mr. Paget: Can they not be used defensively?
  Mr. Foot: I am protesting about that.
  Mr. Paget: And the battle stops.
  Mr. Emrys Hughes (South Ayrshire): The battle stops and the civilians stop, too.
  Mr. Foot: My hon. and learned Friend the Member for Northampton has not understood the article at all. Zuckerman is saying, and many others have said it, that if one piles more and more tactical nuclear weapons into Europe the possibility of one of them being let off is multiplied. Do I see the Minister indicating that that is not the case?
  Mr. Profumo: I have read the article in question with great care and I think, with great respect, that Sir Solly Zuckerman cannot be held to be saying this, because the tactical nuclear warheads are under lock and key and cannot be released just like that. There is no question of someone losing his head and letting the things off. The rest of the argument may be valid but Sir Solly Zuckerman does not say what the hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. M. Foot) has stated.
  Mr. Foot: I am sorry, but the right hon. Gentleman should read the article again, too. The whole of the article is describing just what I have been saying. Why does the Minister think that the article is called "Judgment and Control in Modern Warfare". Sir Solly Zuckerman is talking about judgment and control. He is saying that it is getting much more difficult to control these things.
  Mr. Profumo: I am telling the hon. Gentleman the facts.
  Mr. Foot: The right hon. Gentleman says that he is telling me the facts, but his Department is often wrong on these matters. It often makes mistakes. It is common sense that, if more and more tactical nuclear weapons are put into Europe, the situation will become more dangerous. Many other people agree with this, and many other military authorities say that all tactical nuclear weapons should be withdrawn from Europe. Sir John Slessor says very much the same. The wise Government, which we are asked to believe, thought it a good idea for the safety of the nation that we should jam tactical nuclear weapons into Europe and that we should have a line down Europe with tactical nuclear weapons jostling on either side of it. That is the policy which the Government have worked for, and they have got it.
  The idea is that we should put tactical nuclear weapons on one side and that the other people should put them on the other. That is one of the reasons why we are opposed to putting tactical nuclear weapons in Europe. Before they were put into Europe, the Polish Government offered to keep them out of Europe if we in the West did the same and if there were an inspection system. But that was rejected by the Government's military advisers. We could have had an area in Europe which was devoid of these tactical nuclear weapons.
  Mr. Paget: The Russians turned it down.
  Mr. Foot: That is absolutely untrue. I do not know why my hon. and learned Friend wants to parade his ignorance in this way [Laughter.] Look at the flippancy with which these matters are dealt. We could have kept these weapons out of the centre of Europe.

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  The proposal to do so was made by the Polish Government, supported by the Soviet Government, but it was rejected by the American Government, with the support of the British Government. Why? Because the British and American Government's military advisers said, "It is more important for us to put tactical nuclear weapons into Europe than to have any arrangement for a disengagement plan". They said that because they thought that they would be able to counterbalance the superior conventional force of the Russians by their own tactical nuclear strength.
  That is why the Government said in the 1957 White Paper that in the event of a major attack by the Russians we would use nuclear weapons first—that is, the tactical nuclear weapons about which we are talking. The Government have repeated it. As recently as last January, the Minister of Defence said that, in certain circumstances, the British Government would be prepared to use tactical nuclear weapons first. That is official Government policy. It was the most shameful and lunatic statement ever made by a British Government.
  What is the consequence of it? We are utterly vulnerable, and if one of these tactical nuclear weapons were used either by accident, as I argued earlier, or by deliberate calculation, which the Government have said they might do in certain circumstances, there would be within a matter of minutes of the use of such a weapon in Europe the utter and total destruction of this country.
  We would be much safer, therefore, if these weapons were taken out of Europe altogether, even if we had to do it unilaterally. I would, of course, prefer to do it generally, but this country would be safer however if it were done.
  Sir Cyril Osborne: I do not understand these matters as thoroughly as the hon. Gentleman, but he has said once or twice that these are not defensive weapons but deterrent weapons. If that is so, why should not we keep them in Europe as a deterrent?
  Mr. Foot: Two points arise from that intervention. On the deterrent mainly arises the question of the strategic deterrent, which concerns the American Strategic Air Force, and the major deterrent forces held in the background. I am
  710
  against them, too. We can argue that matter on the Air Estimates; it does not come under these Estimates.
  I do not say that tactical nuclear weapons never deter. None of us has said that tactical nuclear weapons never deter anybody. A weapon can be a deterrent in certain circumstances, but not always a deterrent. What the hon. Gentleman and the Government have to prove, if it is safe to have these tactical nuclear weapons in Europe, is that they have always to deter, and that there could never be any possibility of a mistake, because if there is a mistake, this country is destroyed, and that is putting it as mildly as I can. There are possisibilities of mistake, and Sir Solly Zuckerman said so, even though the Minister cannot read what he said with full understanding. If that is not so, the Government say that in certain circumstances—and this is official policy, which the Minister of Defence repeated quite recently—they would use these weapons first. That would involve the total destruction of this country.
  Therefore, I say that even if we had to do it unilaterally it would be much safer to take these weapons out of Europe, and if we could take them out of Europe we could get agreement with the East on this subject more easily, perhaps, than on any other. We helped to get Russian troops out of Poland and out of Hungary. Is not that what we want to do? They propose to do business, but it is rejected by the British and American Governments. My hon. Friends and I voted in favour of this policy, and although they are straining their enthusiasm for it, judging by the looks on their faces at the moment, they are, officially, in favour of this policy, too. They are in favour of the Rapacki Plan, which would keep these weapons out of the area.
  Mr. Emrys Hughes: And the Gaitskell plan.
  Mr. Foot: That, too, though I do not know whether it has been abandoned.
  The fact is that the insistence of the military leaders on pouring these weapons into Europe, so far from increasing our safety, diminishes it. Therefore, if we did not have any other reason for voting against these Estimates, we are not prepared again to vote money

  711
  to cause these tactical nuclear weapons to be piled into Europe, involving possible disaster for this country. I think my hon. Friend the Member for Nelson and Colne would agree that we do not expect that we can persuade the people in this House, because we know hon. Members have formed their views sincerely—I am sure they do—but they must not think that though we speak for a small number here, we speak for only a small number in the country. There are many people who look at this question of nuclear weapons in a different sense and in a different way, and, as Abraham Lincoln once said, we must disenthral ourselves from the military orthodoxies, which have very often led us to disaster.
  Therefore, on these Estimates, my hon. Friends and myself are voting against the moneys supplied for nuclear weapons, which, so far from being weapons to defend this country, are, we believe, weapons which could cause infinite disaster.
  9.13 p.m.
  Sir Eric Errington: During the course of this day's debate, on several occasions I have felt inclined to ask the same question as the Irishman did—"Is this a private fight, or can anybody join in?" It would seem to anybody unconnected with and without any knowledge of our institutions that the real fight in these matters has been between the Opposition Front Bench and those hon. Gentlemen who are sitting below the Gangway opposite.
  I should like to congratulate my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State on his Memorandum, and indeed on his felicitous speech in introducing the Estimates debate. I do not propose to discuss nuclear weapons or higher strategy, but I have in mind several matters which should, I think, be considered in dealing with the detail of the Estimates.
  The first is publicity. My right hon. Friend used the expression "high-pressure publicity". In many ways, he has been able to improve considerably the impact or, to use the modern word, the image of the Army with the public, though I think that there are certain directions in which he might well look
  712
  further. Paragraph 52 of the Memorandum, under the heading "Man-management in the Army", after speaking about freedom from certain restrictions and irritations in the Army, goes on to say:
  "This guidance deals with such routine activities as inspections, guards, parades and fatigues and emphasises the need to cut out unnecessary and time-consuming activities."
  I suggest that we have gone a little too far, perhaps, in disposing of some activities which, though slightly time-consuming, are of value from the point of view of public relations. In my constituency this year the Queen's Birthday Parade and the Tattoo which normally accompanies the Aldershot show have been cancelled. As the number of men involved for the Tattoo would be about 400 at the most and as only two extra parades would be necessary for a full comprehensive Queen's Birthday Parade, for the troops in Aldershot District, the abandonment of these two events seems somewhat shortsighted.
  The next matter, the supply of walking-out dress, I have raised on the Estimates in previous years whenever I have had an opportunity to speak. I still see many soldiers without the walking-out dress. This is very unsatisfactory. They are sad about it and they would be very proud if they were able to go home with all the kudos which goes with a really smart looking outfit. In my view, things such as a smart walking-out dress tend to encourage recruits, and I regard them as important for that reason if for no other. Two years ago I received a promise that within a reasonable time—within two years, I think—every soldier would have the walking-out dress, but this has not happened.
  The brevity with which I shall touch on the next subject, pensions, will be no measure of its importance for recruiting, entirely apart from the human angle; there are today elderly needy widows, particularly those widowed before 1948 whose husbands were unable to subscribe to National Insurance, who are living on a mere pittance. People are talking about this and they say that if the Services behave like that they really should not have support by the encouragement of recruiting of young men of the appropriate age.

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  I want to deal with two or three other matters and then go on to what is admittedly a constituency matter but which is of some importance. I am pleased to hear from my right hon. Friend that special considerations are being given to doctors and that it is intended to put their service on a geographical basis. I hope one result will be some sort of liaison, from the point of view of medical attention, between the Services. It appears obvious, from what one hears, that there is a shortage of doctors and dentists. Would it not be better, therefore, to use area arrangements to cover both the Royal Air Force and the Army rather than have a separate organisation for each Service?
  About two years ago the Estimates Committee considered this matter and made certain recommendations. Such an arrangement would appear to mean not only a possible economy but would also enable the work to be done for both Services even where there is a shortage. Of course, it could only be done in this country. Obviously it could not apply to units abroad.
  The idea of giving a full service life to officers is excellent, but I am a little uncertain about how the proposed system of keeping on the middle ranks of officers—presumably senior captains, majors and lieutenants-colonel who have not gone to the staff college—will work. It is a laudable idea to keep on these officers, if one can do so, and to offer them a career. But surely there can be only a limited number of posts (to use my right hon. Friend's expression) for colonels and brigadiers, and merely to add a P.S.C. or S.Q. may not, as I see it, add very much to the opportunity these officers may have. There is a substantial danger in this scheme of a diminution of the standing of a P.S.C. or a course at the Staff College.
  In regard to younger officers, I would like my right hon. Friend to consider the position which arises with regard to officers commissioned from Sandhurst. The popular and fashionable regiments are always very much sought-after by the newly commissioned and it sometimes happens in consequence that the line regiments do not get their fair share of the brighter lads from Sandhurst. This is very unfortunate and might in time
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  become disastrous. Action should be taken to ensure that the butter represented by the best class of young officer if this is a suitable metaphor, is spread over the whole of the Service, particularly the line regiments. This does not apply so much to the technical corps, where other qualifications are important.
  I want now to speak of a purely constituency matter arising from the kindly observations in paragraph 88 about the military sector of Aldershot. I am very pleased that there has been so much redevelopment in Aldershot. The only thing I want to say about the building of the married quarters now being erected in substantial numbers is that it has not apparently been realised that some families consist of two and others consist of six, seven, eight or more. During the war the German Air Force very wisely built the semi-detached class of house in such a way that the top floor of either house could be shut off. If this was done, the result was that one house could accommodate a man and his wife and two children and the other could accommodate a man and his wife and as many as six children. The two rooms at the top could be put into either house.
  I hope that attention will be paid to this matter. I confirm what my hon. Friend the Member for Dorset, North (Sir Richard Glyn) said about garages. If garages are to be erected, there is much to be said for not erecting the traditional type but erecting the prefabricated type, which is much Cheaper and equally durable.
  Further buildings, some of which were so old as to have horse lines underneath the actual barracks of the troops, have been knocked down. This has happened with a number of barracks, with the result that it has not been possible since they have been demolished for any payment by way of relief of rates to be made in regard to them. Waterloo East and West, Talavera, Badajos, and Salamanca have already been demolished. Some houses have been built on Waterloo East. Work has been started on Waterloo West and Talavera and married quarters may be completed within a year. In the case of Badajos and Salamanca new quarters certainly will not be completed for two years. In addition, there are four new barracks in place of the Stanhope Lines which are

  715
  being abolished. These barracks will not be available until 1964.
  I ask the Secretary of State to look into this matter with some care, because the effect so far of these not being allowable for the subvention which is given in place of rates to the Borough of Aldershot is that there has been a reduction in annual income of about £26,000, which is equivalent of the levy of a 11d. rate. In addition, although I do not want unduly to emphasise this, as a result of the decrease in population due to military exodus there has been a radical effect on the rate deficiency grant receivable, involving a loss of approximately a further £9,900. These are matters of importance, particularly so when people in the Services come back from Kenya and ask why it is that these buildings are not being got on with while barracks in Kenya are being proceeded with. The general feeling is that it would be more to the point to get on quickly with building at home rather than building in Kenya, buildings which may not be used by our troops or their wives.
  Another reason why this is of considerable importance is that there has been a bottleneck in the building programme to the extent of about £6 million of work that has been approved but which cannot be done. Quoting from the Third Report of the Estimates Committee, a witness, when asked why only one-third of the planned expenditure for new barrack buildings was taking place in this financial year, said that this was due to delay consequent on pressure of work in the building industry.
  I hope that when the Minister comes to reply he will deal with these matters. We have heard of all the work that is going on, and what is hoped to be done, in barrack building and married quarters building, and if we are to have these barrack blocks and old married quarters knocked down and not replaced within reasonable time, for whatever reason at all, it is a serious matter from two points of view. First, from the point of view of the rates, and, secondly, that unless we keep the existing buildings, particularly the married quarters, until they can be replaced we shall get into the old difficulty of people wanting accommodation and being unable to have it.
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  I hope very much that I may have an assurance that this building programme will not be held up and that the excellent suggestions about building which are contained in the Memorandum will be implemented without undue delay.
  9.39 p.m.
  Mr. Emrys Hughes: I have a certain amount of sympathy with the hon. Member for Aldershot (Sir E. Errington), for it is very natural from the point of view of his constituency that he would like to have additional expenditure on the Aldershot Tattoo. I suppose it is quite a human thing for an hon. Member to put forward a case why the Government should produce something akin to a display of fireworks in his constituency.
  Sir E. Errington: I think that when the Aldershot Tattoo is renewed it will do the hon. Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Emrys Hughes) very much good if he will come along to it.
  Mr. Hughes: I am always interested in anything colourful, and I might conceivably, if I had nothing better to do, go to the Aldershot Tattoo.
  Sir E. Errington: Good.
  Mr. Hughes: We may soon have to put this into poetry.
  If Aldershot is entitled to have its tattoo, is every garrison town in the country going to have one? Why should we all subscribe to a jamboree at Aldershot so that the hon. Gentleman—
  Sir E. Errington: One very good reason for subscribing to the Aldershot Tattoo is that it is in aid of Army charities, and I am sure that that would appeal to the hon. Gentleman.
  Mr. Hughes: That certainly does not appeal to me. I do not think that the widows and other dependants of officers and soldiers should have to rely upon charity. The hon. Gentleman's argument that we must have the Aldershot Tattoo in order to raise money for Army charities is a rather curious one. If that is the situation, it is a scandal. If men sacrifice their lives and their dependants are left in poverty, their needs should be met from State funds instead of their

  717
  depending upon a tattoo. It really is the most ridiculous argument that the hon. Gentleman has produced yet.
  I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman carries on any recruiting campaigns in Aldershot, but the Minister is right to say that it is absurd to encourage men to join the Army and then tell them that their dependants will be able to get a meagre addition to their small allowance if the Aldershot Tattoo is a success. If a man enlists in the Army, his dependants should be entitled to decent treatment from the community which employed him.
  We have a tattoo in Edinburgh every year. I do not know how far the Minister is responsible for financing it. Judging by the income which it brings into Edinburgh, I should think that the Edinburgh City Council might be called upon to contribute a certain amount. Suppose the right hon. Gentleman, in a fit of economy following the instructions of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, were to say, "We cannot have any of the expenses of the Edinburgh Tattoo borne by the War Office; that is a matter for the Edinburgh City Council because Edinburgh receives a certain amount of revenue from the Tattoo"—
  Mr. Profumo: The Edinburgh Tattoo is arranged by local civil organisations.
  Mr. Hughes: I am very grateful to the Minister for that intervention. Although I am a Scottish Member and an enthusiastic supporter of the Edinburgh Festival, I should be the last to follow the example of the hon. Member for Alder-shot and come along and plead poverty and try to get money out of the War Office for the Edinburgh Tattoo. We should let the Edinburgh Tattoo stand on its own feet, and we should let the Aldershot Tattoo stand on its own feet instead of the War Office being asked to increase its expenditure at a time when it wishes to cut it in response to the Chancellor of the Exchequer's campaign.
  I believe that the hon. Member for Aldershot used to come to Pitlochry. He used to appeal to a national association of property-owners. I do not know how he will square that with his plea for a reduction of Government expenditure, the plea which he makes at Pitlochry, with the one he makes here.
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  However, I pass from that, Sir William, because I see that I am likely to transgress the rules of order. The hon. Gentleman the Member for Aldershot really should not entice one to examine the question of the Aldershot Tattoo too closely. I am a strong supporter of the War Office in its attitude to the Alder-shot Tattoo. If the right hon. Gentleman gets up and says resolutely and determinedly that he has got to resist the demands made upon him by the hon. Gentleman the Member for Aldershot I shall be here, I hope, even if it is near midnight, to say "Hear, hear" and to say, "The War Office is doing its duty to the Chancellor of the Exchequer and to the country."
  I wonder what sort of warfare does the hon. Gentleman want to see enacted at the Aldershot Tattoo? I can understand his wanting a beautiful scenic reproduction of the Battle of Waterloo or of the Battle of Balaclava, or even of the Battle of Bannockburn.
  Mr. Wigg: And the Battle of Flodden?
  Mr. Hughes: He wants a beautiful scenic display of warfare and military grandeur from the distant centuries, but I fail to see what relevance that has to the sort of war we have been thinking about and discussing during the last few days and which we shall be discussing during the next few weeks. So in spite of the fact that next week I may be regarded as a villain by the Aldershot Times or the Aldershot Chronicle, or whatever the local paper may be called, I back the War Office and I say to Aldershot, "No tattoo as far as the War Office is concerned." I hope that when the local paper at Aldershot reports the appeal of the hon. Member for Alder-shot it will add a little postscript illustrating the sort of discussion he has aroused. I do not know whether I shall be invited after that.
  I want to put a point of view not in regard to what is, after all, a small matter in the general scope of military expenditure, but a big one for Alder-shot, and to return to the question of the Army Estimates and how far we are justified in asking the country to raise the sum of over £500 million at the present time.

  719
  I have heard the hon. Member for Louth (Sir C. Osborne)—we agreed on the broad general principle—say that what we really wanted was a committee of business men to examine the expenditure of the Armed Forces. I hope that the N.D.C. is not only going to examine the expenditure of industrial establishments but also the economics and administration of the Army and the money for it. I should like a Dr. Beeching to carry out a ruthless examination of Army expenditure, in the same way as he is conducting one now on the railways.
  Mr. Wigg: Surely my hon. Friend does not want to advocate Dr. Beeching for the Army, because his job is to prepare the railways for denationalisation. My hon. Friend does not want denationalisation of the Army, does he?
  Mr. Hughes: Of course, the Army is one of the oldest nationalised institutions—next. I think, to the Monarchy. Certainly it is not I who am not logical. It is hon. Gentlemen opposite. It is the hon. Member for Aldershot, who makes these speeches about private enterprise at Pitlochry to the property owners' federation. Would he say, "Yes, we want denationalisation of the Army and we want to hand it over to the property owners and to private enterprise"?
  I want to put this from the Scottish angle and from the point of view of my own constituency. I know that the Minister does not look upon my constituency as exactly an asset.
  Mr. Profumo: I do. If the hon. Member will look at the recruiting figures for his constituency he will find that they have absolutely leapt up, entirely due to the help which he has given.
  Mr. Hughes: Unfortunately for the right hon. Gentleman, I have the statistics here. I have furnished myself with the information about the statistics of how recruiting has leapt up in my constituency, but first I want to deal with the figures for Scotland.
  Sir C. Osborne: Is that the hon. Member's constituency too?
  Mr. Hughes: Mankind is my constituency, and in the present mood of mankind against war I would have a huge
  720
  majority. I know, Sir William, that you do not want metaphysical discussions in the Scottish vein interpolated into a debate on the Army Estimates. You would frown upon it, and I can see that you are frowning now.
  I want to look at these matters from the point of view of a cold statistical examination and I hope that hon. Members from Scottish constituencies will correct me if I am wrong. At this time of year I always ask the Secretary of State for War about how Scotland did the previous year. Recently, in a debate the right hon. Gentleman thought that South Ayrshire was a bad spot. The right hon. Gentleman may have forgotten the speech which I made on the Army Estimates last year, but he cannot have forgotten what he said three months ago.
  I have figures which can be found in HANSARD for 5th March. Last year 3,137 people enlisted in Scotland. When one thinks that in the event of war we may have to face the Red Army, perhaps with reinforcements from the Chinese and a few other nations, I can hardly think that this is a satisfactory indication of the contribution from Scotland.
  I see that the hon. Member for South Angus (Sir J. Duncan) is here. Has he gone into the figures of recruiting in his area? I find that in January 270 people enlisted in Scotland and in February 330. This was after a most intensive recruiting campaign, in the daily newspapers and on television and the radio, which was the most expensive in history. By the end of the year I should say that the Secretary of State for War will be very lucky if he has 5,000 recruits from Scotland. These figures show that far fewer people enlisted in Scotland this year, and at the rate in the last two months, than enlisted in the time of Bannockburn.
  Sir Douglas Glover: Has the hon. Member those figures?
  Mr. Hughes: I know that you and I, Sir William, agree about Bannockburn but the hon. Member for Ormskirk (Sir D. Glover), who is so provocative, does not.
  I want to take up the challenge of the Secretary of State for War about the figures in my constituency. In Ayrshire in 1961 a total of 103 men enlisted. In

  721
  January of this year 17 men joined the Army. In February the figures "leapt up". They went from 17 down to 12. I am sorry that the hon. and gallant Member for Bute and North Ayreshire (Sir F. Maclean) is not here. There are five constituencies in Ayrshire and the number of people recruited from the constituency represented by the hon. and gallant Member, who is so keen about conscription, was two this year. The Secretary of State tells us that the figures have been leaping up. Last year, the figure was three. Now, it is two. I have completely disposed of the Minister's statistical argument.
  I want to know the reason for this. The Army has tried the bands. It does not have a tattoo. It has closed down the Churchill Barracks at Ayr, which is a very good thing. Recruiting in that part of the world must be about as low as it has been in history. The Minister frowns and looks disapprovingly, but these are the figures supplied to me by the War Office. Surely, he does not suggest that the War Office has falsified his statistics to help me. The Minister is in a state of completely unbounded optimism about recruiting.
  What I have said applies not merely to my constituency, but to the constituency represented by the hon. Member for Bute and North Ayrshire, my very opposite number, who said that we must carry out our commitments and that if we cannot do so, we must have conscription. The hon. Member was so dissatisfied with the policy of the Government that the other night I found him voting along with me, I do not know whether by mistake, in the Division Lobby on the Army Reserve Bill. That is mutiny in the ranks.
  If the hon. Member for Bute and North Ayrshire is so keen about conscription and about introducing National Service, if he is so keen to assist my hon. Friend the Member for Dudley (Mr. Wigg), he should resign his seat and decide to test out his constituency on the question of conscription by making it an election issue.
  Conscription is completely unpopular. If the Government tried to impose it upon the people, they would be doing something undemocratic. Again, I support the War Office in its refusal to
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  embark upon a national scheme of either selective or general conscription for military service.
  I ask myself why the young men in my constituency do not join the Army. It is not that they are pacifists, because the number of theoretical or philosophical pacifists, the number of Quakers or people who take the attitude towards war that I do, is infinitesimal. The young people of today and the young people in Ayrshire are normal, intelligent people who read international news in the papers. They watch television, they watch what the Army is doing and they hear the arguments for the Army, but they simply do not join.
  Sir C. Osborne: Could it be that they are so well off after ten years of Tory Government?
  Mr. Hughes: I am not to be provoked by that kind of remark. I have enough to do to dispose of one Estimate without trying to dispose of the Tory propaganda at the last Election.
  What is the attitude? I believe that people are more interested—
  It being Ten o'clock, The CHAIRMAN left the Chair to report Progress and ask leave to sit again.
  Committee report Progress.
  Ordered,
  That this day the Business of Supply may be taken after Ten o'clock and shall be exempted from the provisions of Standing Order No. 1 (Sittings of the House) for Two Hours after Ten o'clock.—[Mr. Profumo.]
  Supply again considered in Committee.
  Mr. Hughes: I am indebted to the House for continuing the debate for another two hours, and I promise that I will allow sufficient time for the Government spokesman to reply.
  The average young man in my constituency looks upon the recruiting effort as an attempt to deceive him into going into an Army which a large percentage of the members of the older generation know is quite unlike the advertisements which appear on television or upon the recruiting posters. They realise, as everybody must, that this is an era of nuclear war, and all the appeals and inspiring propaganda falls on deaf ears. The result is that we are getting only a trickle of recruits. The country does not want conscription.

  723
  I hope the country will not have conscription, and I hope that whatever subtle means may be used to press unwilling people into the Armed Forces will be resisted.
  I notice that this year the propaganda of the War Office takes on a different form. There is a Memorandum on the Army which appears in red covers. It contains some very interesting pictures. The first is one of British infantrymen in Berlin. I see two young, attractive looking men, a sergeant and a private, armed with the latest kind of gun, photographed against a background which appears to include a picture of my old friend, Reuter.
  I want to bring the soldiers home from Berlin because I do not see what military purpose they are serving there at the present time. Hon. Members may say, "That is what we expect from you." But it is also the view of a man who knows more about military affairs in Germany than most people in this country—Field Marshal Lord Montgomery. When Marshal Montgomery advises us not to have any illusions about the Army in Berlin and urges a policy of withdrawing bases from Berlin, and argues that this country should withdraw its soldiers from territories which do not belong to it, I believe that he is a realist and is facing the facts.
  It is all very well to get enthusiastic about Berlin. I remember the excitement there was in this House over the Berlin airlift. I remember the speech made by the present Prime Minister. We were in almost the same position, except that there was a Labour Government and the Conservatives were in opposition. The right hon. Gentleman now the Prime Minister made a very bitter attack on the Labour Government. He said that they were not doing enough about Berlin. He said that we should take a stronger attitude towards the Russians and be ready to force our way into Berlin.
  I remember interrupting him. I have been interrupting the Prime Minister now for many years. I asked him, "Does this mean war?" It can all be read in HANSARD for those years. He said, "Oh, no. It would not be war. If we marched to Berlin the Russians would retire." What nonsense! They
  724
  did not retire then and would not retire now. I do not think there is any prospect of the Russians being forced by military methods to retire from Berlin. The only way they could be got out of Berlin would be by negotiation of some sort of European settlement.
  Sir C. Osborne: While that is true, it is also true that the Berlin airlift succeeded in our purpose of getting the Russians talking over Berlin.
  Mr. Hughes: I think that would be a good argument for the Air Estimates debate. The hon. Member must remember that we are on the Army Estimates and not yet on the Air Estimates. We are not likely to be on those tonight.
  Mr. Marsh: The hon. Member is obstructing.
  Mr. Hughes: Is my hon. Friend the Member for Greenwich (Mr. Marsh) attacking me?
  Mr. Marsh: Much as I should like to, I was on the contrary attacking the hon. Member for Louth (Sir C. Osborne). I was saying that he was obstructing Government business by trying to turn my hon. Friend the Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Emrys Hughes) from the path of righteousness.
  Mr. Hughes: I quite understand that my hon. Friend meant to be helpful.
  I have reached only the first page of this pamphlet. I want to know why we should delude ourselves with a picture in the Memorandum showing two soldiers in Berlin into imagining that we are justified in expenditure on a military garrison in Berlin. The same argument applies to the whole position in Germany. I believe the Chancellor of the Exchequer is doing absolutely right in reducing our Army in Germany at present. My only criticism is that he is not doing it drastically or quickly enough.
  When my hon. Friends talk about increasing the Army in Germany and increasing expenditure on it, I wonder if they think that finds an echo among the people they represent in Parliament. I do not think so. I do not think there is the slightest enthusiasm in this country for retaining our Army in Germany. They have read what Field Marshal Montgomery has said. That is not pacifist propaganda or Communist propaganda. It is what is said by Field

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  Marshal Montgomery, the most experienced major officer who knows more about military strategy in Europe than probably anyone in this country. He says it is nonsense and that we have got to come out of Germany.
  We should be facing the facts. If the Labour Party is to tell the people of this country at the next election that we have to cut down the nuclear deterrent and spend the money in keeping troops in Germany they will face defeat at that election as they did at the last. If the Government are spending £500 million or more on the Army they must be getting the money from somewhere. They must be cutting down on some other services to get it, and if Opposition hon. and right hon. Members say that they intend to continue the expenditure on the Army at the same rate as the present Government they will be faced, should they win the next election, with having to produce a first Budget and Estimates allowing for such expenditure.
  I want to see a Labour Government in power as much as anyone, but if they enter office with a defence programme costing more than £1,700 million, including big expenditure in Germany, they will be faced with continuing problems of balancing our finances and they will, obviously, have to cut the social services again. As one who bitterly opposed the Budget in which the Labour Government cut the social services—teeth, spectacles, and the rest-in order to spend it on rearmament, I hope that the time will not come when a Labour Government will repeat that.
  I warn my hon. and right hon. Friends on the Opposition Front Bench not to delude themselves with the sort of involved strategy they have been advocating, for it will find no response from the rank and file in the Labour movement. They might as well face this now. If they intend to advocate increased military expenditure in Germany they must say so. They must say, "We are sorry but we cannot bring back the housing subsidy because military expenditure must have priority."
  In any case, our defence expenditure is too great. We are spending on the Army 3s. 10d. per person per week, or 19s. 2d. per week per man and wife and three children. Instead of saying that this amount must be reduced, we
  726
  say that it must be increased. I do not see how we can possibly argue for a reduction in Government expenditure on all sorts of things and, at the same time, advocate increased military expenditure. We talk about inflation and the burden of Government expenditure. We set up committees and make proposals—all followed by the Government presenting huge Estimates with practically no hon. Members here to discuss them. It just does not make sense.
  Whether the Government like it or not, a reduction in defence expenditure is vital if we are to have a sound economy. I consider that I am doing my job if, in these debates—and I have been doing this for years—I look critically at the Estimates and judge the arguments that are adduced. Some of the greatest political issues, both in the past and more recently, have raged over the question whether the Government should stand up to the military vested interests.
  I recall that a Conservative Chancellor of the Exchequer once had the political courage, the guts, to say to the War Office, "You are asking for too much money and the country cannot afford it." That Chancellor of the Exchequer was Lord Randolph Churchill. The biography of Lord Randolph Churchill by the right hon. Member for Woodford (Sir W. Churchill) is a very interesting and, in these days, a relevant account of how Lord Randolph Churchill said to the War Office, "You are asking too much from the nation, and we are not prepared to give it to you." There was a crisis and Lord Randolph Churchill lost. I do not suppose that the present Chancellor of the Exchequer will have the same courage as Lord Randolph Churchill.
  Mr. S. Silverman: The Minister of Aviation had.
  Mr. Hughes: Yes, of course he had.
  The Committee must adopt a definite attitude towards these ever-increasing defence Estimates.
  Mr. Wigg: My hon. Friend must be fair to the Minister of Aviation, who, when he was Chancellor of the Exchequer, resigned on his own account.
  The Deputy-Chairman (Sir Robert Grimston): We cannot talk about the Air Ministry. I hope that the hon.

  727
  Gentleman will be clearer in relating his arguments to the Vote which we are considering.
  Mr. Wigg: I am not talking about the Air Ministry. I said that the Minister of Aviation, when he was Chancellor of the Exchequer, resigned over the specific issue that we could not become a nuclear Power and maintain the conventional arms that we should maintain. However, it appeared from his speech this week that he has changed his mind. Nevertheless, we must pay tribute to his courage.
  Mr. Hughes: I agree with the Chair. If my hon. Friend the Member for Dudley (Mr. Wigg) wants to discuss these matters in greater detail, he must wait until we get to the Air Estimates. I would not dream of attacking the Minister of Aviation in his absence. If I had intended to make an attack on him, I should have given him notice that I proposed to do so. However, realising that he is exhausted after his efforts in the defence debate and has gone away not worrying very much about the Army, I think we had better leave him in peace for the night.
  There is reference in these Estimates to expenditure on the Army School of Civil Defence. I should very much like the Under-Secretary of State for War to tell us something about this school, because I am vitally interested in civil defence. What do the Government propose to do to defend the civilian population of this country in the event of war? This is a serious problem. I should like to have the military slant on it. Obviously this school is carrying out some study into Civil Defence, otherwise it would not be in existence.
  I listened with great care to the concluding speeches in the defence debate. I waited until the end of it to hear some reference to what would be done in war in the defence of the civil population. There was no reference to this matter, despite the fact that there are about half-a-dozen paragraphs in the White Paper saying that the Government have a plan for dispersing the civil population in the event of war. What part will the Army play in this plan? The dispersal of the civil population would be such a huge project that it would not be carried out by the civil authorities. I assume that
  728
  the Army School of Civil Defence is engaged in studying the rôle that the Army is likely to play in the evacuation of the civil population.
  Sir D. Glover: Since the hon. Gentleman realises the importance of the Army if such an event as he mentioned occurred, should he not join the Army recruiting campaign?
  Mr. Hughes: If I were convinced that the main function of the Army was to engage in Civil Defence, I should be far less severe in my criticisms, but how can we believe that the Army will play an efficient rôle in the defence of the civil population if it is in Germany?
  Mr. S. Silverman: My hon. Friend will remember that when I offered a few remarks myself the Secretary of State was most indignant at the very suggestion that the War Department proposed to spend any money at all on Civil Defence.
  Mr. Hughes: If the Under-Secretary, when he catches the Chairman's eye, is to say that the main purpose of the Army will be to defend the civilian population and to organise the tremendous task of dispersing them in the event of a nuclear war, I shall listen to him most respectfully, but in that case, surely, the ratio of the expenditure is entirely the reverse to what he is doing now? Perhaps the Under-Secretary will tell us how much is being spent on the Army School of Civil Defence and how much on Civil Defence activities as compared with expenditure in Germany. I cannot see much logic and commonsense in a situation in which a soldier engaged in Berlin or in Western Germany, carrying out whatever may be the hypothetical manœuvres, is unlikely to have much satisfaction that, under our present civil defence arrangements, his wife and family will be safe at home.
  That is why I say this expenditure is hopelessly irrelevant to the kind of nuclear war that we have been talking about during the last few days and will continue to discuss during next week. The Army, so far as I can gather, is rehearsng for a war which may never come, and even if it does may not be at all like the rehearsal. That is why I want to see a ruthless analysis by independent people of Army expenditure, and I want the same thing applied to the other Services.

  729
  When I am told by military authority that all our strategy in Europe is "phoney", and that we should bring our soldiers home, that the Americans should take theirs home and that the Russians should take theirs home, I believe that this is an alternative policy which the people of this country understand. When the Labour Party says that Lord Montgomery is too far to the Left for the Labour Party, a lot of people in the country, and especially young people, are looking up. They listen to Lord Montgomery and they say, "What on earth is happening to the Labour Party when, while Lord Montgomery wants to bring our soldiers back from Germany, the Labour Party wants to spend more money equipping and keeping them there?" I believe that the present line of thought, if one can call it that, that is being expounded from the Front Opposition Bench is one that could not be defended in any kind of intelligent discussion with people who realise what the possibilities of modern war are.
  Perhaps I have been rather longer than I should have been, but if these benches had been crowded, with people enthusiastic about strengthening our military forces in Germany, I should not have been called, or I may have got two minutes. I am only stepping into the breach because the forces have abandoned the position. The hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. M. Foot) has drawn attention to a fact which I have been stressing over and over again during the last few years. It is an absolute scandal that on these benches there is nobody to protest, except a few of us, who protest vehemently against the expenditure of £534 million. If the Opposition really meant that the Defence White Paper was a White Paper which they opposed so strongly that they felt they should go into the Division Lobby against it, then they should logically follow that up and go into the
  730
  Lobby against the Army Estimates. I do not see the logic of it. So long as we have an Opposition opposing and taking a strong and critical line against the Government's defence policy and then folding up, these debates will be an unreality. I do not want them to be an unreality. I believe that the Opposition should be here to oppose and oppose and oppose to the very last ditch. Sooner or later, the Opposition will have to remember that the people of this country are asking what they are doing to justify their existence during these debate.
  Some constituents of mine, miners, came down here on another matter and they went up to the Gallery. They are asking questions. They want to know why so few people are here. I have had to explain, and my answer is this. If the Labour Party put down a three-line Whip, everybody would be here. I am supposed to be in a quarrel with the Whips of my party, but if I were the Chief Whip of the Labour Party, I should be here and making sure that—
  The Deputy-Chairman: This is not a debate about the internal affairs of the Labour Party.
  Mr. Hughes: No, it is a debate about Estimates which we oppose, and I am giving reasons to show why I should like this Committee of the House of Commons to be full of people protesting against the money which is being spent on the Army Estimates, while we know quite well that, if the money is spent in that way, we shall not have enough for schools, education and other social services.
  Therefore, although we have to go not alone but with just a handful into the Lobby tonight, we believe that in that way we shall give the definite kind of fighting lead against the Government that the people and the rank and file of the Labour Party in this country want.
  10.30 p.m.
  Mr. Philip Goodhart: I have heard every speech delivered from the Opposition benches in the debate. It was, I expect, only the well-known humanity of the hon. Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Emrys Hughes) which made his, perhaps, the least offensive to his own Front Bench. Every other speech I have heard contained even stronger criticisms of the statement made from the Dispatch Box opposite.
  I have a higher regard for the military capacity of the hon. and learned Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget) than has any of his hon. Friends sitting with him now, except, perhaps, for those on the Opposition Front Bench, but I feel that he asked for some of the abuse which he got, particularly when he presented us with a picture of a serious riot in Hong Kong being put down by a lot of sailors mounted on donkeys and waving cutlasses. I can only imagine that his mind had been somewhat unhinged as a result of having to support the Opposition's official defence policy, which is to pour thousands more troops into Germany, a policy which I believe is absolutely insane.
  In my view, we cannot have a large-scale conventional war lasting for days and weeks in Western Europe today. I do not believe that this is so because of lack of balance in the conventional forces, or that it is necessarily so because of the preponderance of tactical nuclear weapons, about which the hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. M. Foot) talked for so long. I think that the main reason is the fact that the nuclear weapons which we have at the moment are predominantly first-strike weapons and that there is a very considerable advantage to be gained by the side that decides, once war seems inevitable, to strike first at the opposition's rocket sites and aerodromes.
  I believe that once it is plain that the Russian forces are rolling forward across Germany en masse the pressure of the American military advisers on their President to strike first, in order to try to destroy as much of the Russian capacity as possible before it hits America a few hours later, will become overwhelming. So I just do not see that
  732
  it is going to be possible to have a large-scale conventional war in Europe.
  It seems to me, therefore, to be a course of absolute folly to recommend pouring large quantities of British soldiers into that country, because they have, in fact, only one real purpose, which is to hold the front for a short time so that we can make sure whether it is a probing or an accidental attack. For this one needs not manpower but conventional fire-power, and this, I believe, can now be fairly easily obtained.
  A platoon in the modern Army should soon be equipped with the F.N. rifle, with the new machine guns and with the Vigilant anti-tank weapons which will give it a fire-power two, three or four times as great as that had by the platoon which I commanded at the end of the war or which was available even to platoons, say, in 1954 when the Brussels Treaty was signed.
  It seems to be one of the tragedies of the present situation that there is no easy statistical method of measuring firepower capacity. One can measure manpower but one cannot measure firepower, and so the whole debate tends to concentrate exclusively upon the number of men involved, however adequately or inadequately they may be armed. But if, in fact, the shortage of men in Germany should become a political embarrassment to us, then I would suggest to my right hon. Friend that he might try voluntary National Service for a one-year period.
  I believe that there are a number of people who dislike the thought of two years in the Army and certainly dislike the thought of six years in the Army because at the age of 18 six years seem almost like a lifetime. But one year of fairly rousing physical training and experience might well be a considerable attraction to many young men. If I were that age now I think that I would be prepared to spend a year in the Army quite voluntarily, although I certainly would not sign on for six years. As a father, I should be extremely happy to see my sons serve for a year, although, again, I would not necessarily advise them to become Regulars. I think it would be possible to raise a few thousand men in this way—not very

  733
  many, but a few thousand. This might make us look a little more respectable politically on the Continent. We could not give them a very high level of training, but there is a lot of mystique about the question of how long it takes to make a trained soldier. One can become fairly competently trained in six weeks or three months.
  Mr. James Scott-Hopkins: My hon. Friend has said that the important feature of a modern army is not manpower but firepower. He has said that modern weapons give an accurate and very high rate of fire. Now he is postulating a theory that men with little training could operate these weapons. I do not see how he squares the two arguments.
  Mr. Goodhart: I did not suggest that they would have the weapons which give the very high firepower. If it is manpower in which we are interested, one could be trained to use a ·303 rifle or a Bren gun in a matter of weeks. Most of us have done it. Indeed, some people have had even less time—
  Mr. A. R. Wise: One problem is that one can teach a man to fire a rifle in half-an-hour, but it takes a long time to teach him to hit anything.
  Mr. Goodhart: I am suggesting that the main burden of defence could rest with the Regular soldier, but that if we are interested in political window-dressing, with a large number of men, these people could provide some political window-dressing.
  If we are to push ahead with the provision of all the modern defensive weapons which are available, such as the Vigilant and the new rifles, this will cost even more money—and I do not particularly want to see the burden of Army expenditure rise still further. I believe that there are some fairly substantial savings which can be made within the present Estimates. Not long ago I visited the Army Fighting Vehicles Research and Development Establishment, where I was taken into a cold chamber to see a vehicle which was a mobile dark room. The idea was that film should be dropped from aircraft, picked up by this vehicle and developed on the spot for rapid intelligence
  734
  analysis. This vehicle was being made ice-proof so that it could operate in the Arctic. The concept that one must spend money to try to achieve this sort of capacity shows a mentality which spreads the butter so thinly over the world that we are capable of doing very little.
  But the main work of this research establishment in recent years has been the development of the new heavy tank, the Chieftain, a picture of which appears in the Memorandum. The picture makes it look like a dinosaur, with a tiny head at the end of a long barrel—extending down a very long neck to a large and cumbersome body. I suspect that already this heavy tank is just as prehistoric as is the dinosaur. Where would it be used? It could not be used in the Far East; it could not be transported quickly enough. It could not be used in the Middle East. One of the reasons that the Suez operation was so slow was that they were waiting for the tank landing craft to get under way. It will never be possible to use this tank in the Middle East. The only place where it will be possible to use it is in the middle of Germany where there is the most tremendous concentration of anti-tank weapons that there has ever been, and anti-tank weapons which are becoming increasingly effective. I believe that the entire expenditure on this heavy tank is a total waste of taxpayers' money.
  Then we have the question of buildings. My blood ran even colder when I heard my right hon. Friend talking about his skyscraper this afternoon than it did when I was in the cold room at the Armoured Fighting Vehicle Research and Development Establishment. To suggest that a skyscraper barracks should be built on the Knightsbridge site! My right hon. Friend ought to be dragged through the streets of London by the Town and Country Planning Association and pelted with copies of its new pamphlet which suggests that this sort of thinking ought to stop.
  I was most unfavourably impressed in talking to a number of senior officers in various parts of the world by the sort of complex that they have developed in this desire to leave enormous pyramid monuments behind them. One finds our generals talking about almost nothing else except the tremendous building projects that they have up their sleeves.

  735
  We are faced with the fact that as the Army steadily contracts, more and more money is spent on accommodation for them in exactly the same places that they have been living in.
  According to the Estimates, we find that this year we are spending on building for the Army almost £300 per man. If we spent £300 per person on building for the entire population of this country the bill would come to £15,000 million in a year, which is almost the total of our gross national product. I regret that a rather firmer hand is not being taken with the building estimates that have come up.
  Mr. Hugh Rees: The average council house for the average family in this country costs £600 per head. I scarcely think that £300 is adequate.
  Mr. Emrys Hughes: On a point of order. Are we dealing with the Housing Estimates or the Army Estimates?
  The Deputy-Chairman (Sir Robert Grimston): We are debating the Army Estimates.
  Mr. Goodhart: My hon. Friend the Member for Swansea, West (Mr. Rees) has a point, but this figure of £300 per head is for a year, not £300 once and for all.
  Mr. William Baxter: Is the hon. Gentleman not aware that the practice that is followed in sending out schedules to building contractors to build Army houses is restricted to a very few contractors? In fact, there is a considerable waste of public money in not using the services of contractors in various parts of the country. A sub-contractor goes into an area where there are already many building contractors who are not on the Government's list and who, therefore, do not receive schedules to enable them to tender at competitive prices. This is one of the disgraceful things that go on in the Army.
  Mr. Goodhart: I am sure that is a very interesting point. However, I notice that there are other hon. Friends of mine who wish to get into this debate, so I will not follow that matter now.
  736
  I wish to reinforce the point that was made earlier by my hon. Friend the Member for Dorset, North (Sir Richard Glyn) when he spoke about prefabrication. I saw recently in Kenya at Kahawa some very good prefabricated Army housing, which is extremely easy to transport and can be moved from one part of the world to another at little cost. If at the end of the war, we had spent a few million pounds on research into prefabrication of buidings to produce decent, prefabricated houses for the Army, instead of the lavish houses which are moved into and then vacated after two or three years, I think we could have saved enough money in the last fifteen years to send my hon. Friend the Member for Harrogate (Mr. Ramsden) into orbit round the earth, if we wish to enter the space race, or enough to pay decent pensions to the widows of elderly officers and men.
  Although I could go on for a considerable time, there are hon. Friends of mine who wish to get into the debate, I shall close by saying that although this is not the ideal Army and these are not ideal Estimates I think they make much better sense and are infinitely less expensive than the rather preposterous ideas which have been put forward from the Opposition Front Bench today.
  10.46 p.m.
  Mr. John Morris: In standing here at this Box this evening I am experiencing some of the feelings which I experienced not so long ago when I made my maiden speech in this Chamber. I am not asking for the same indulgence this evening because I cannot be entirely non-controversial, but I hope the Committee will show to a person as inexperienced as myself some measure of tolerance if not indulgence.
  However, I am fortified in standing here by the first photograph in the Secretary of State's Memorandum on the Army Estimates. It is a picture which shows two soldiers on duty in Berlin. They are the inheritors, I think I can say, of the valiant deeds which have been performed on the Continent from the time of Crécy and Agincourt to this day. I am proud to be an ex-member of this regiment, the Welch Regiment. I hope that when my hon.

  737
  Friend the Member for Gower (Mr. I. Davies) goes to Berlin tomorrow he will convey the best wishes not only of myself but, I think, of everyone in this Committee not only to this regiment but to every other regiment of the British Army in whatever part of the world it may be.
  But best wishes are not enough. We cannot cash a cheque for best wishes in the bank. And one of the most immediate considerations of a soldier is that of pay. Today, and on Monday and Tuesday, the question of pay and of the dishonouring by the Government of their obligations on soldiers' pay have been mentioned by hon. Members, but today hon. Members on the other side have been strangely silent on this question.
  I welcomed when I heard them the words of the Minister of Defence:
  "The Government attach great importance to carrying out pledges on service pay."—[OFFICIAL RFPORT, 5th March, 1962; Vol. 655, c. 43.]
  But in the next moment he was in breach of that same statement. He went on to say that the Services would not wish to be excepted from the sacrifice. He went to the House and made a statement based on his beliefs. I am entitled to ask, as my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget) asked, what is the basis of that statement of belief that the Army, for example, is prepared and indeed wishes to be excepted in the way outlined by the Minister of Defence? Have any inquiries been made? Have any soldiers been asked whether they wish to lose the pay they are entitled to have under the terms of the Grigg Report?
  Soldiers have contracted to serve for a fixed period of time. One of the conditions known to each of them when recruited was that there would be a biennial review of pay. Now there is a unilateral breach of contract by the Government, which has preached on so many occasions the sanctity of contract. Soldiers have been placed in an impossible position. They are compelled by law to honour their own engagements, but by this shabby trick and what I can only describe as a piece of gross hypocrisy their own self-styled "union leader" has repudiated the agreement for the Government.
  738
  The remarks of the Minister of Defence in calling himself the soldiers' union leader can be likened to those of a union leader in Soviet Russia saying that he was happy when his own collective was forced to accept a out. The private soldier is unable to do anything about this. He is unable to choose his own union leader. The Minister of Defence says that the Services would not wish to be excepted from this cut. How much does it mean? A married private is asked to sacrifice £20 a year, which, if my mathematical calculation is correct means 8s. a week. A captain sacrifices £50 a year, which is almost £1 a week. The Minister is enforcing from the soldiers almost a compulsory gift to the Government that will rank with ship money in British history.
  I congratulate the Government on what has been done in recruiting so far. I only wish that the results were very much better. I was glad to hear the figures from the Secretary of State today. Has any estimate been made of the probable effect on recruiting of the Government's repudiation of the terms of the Grigg Report? There is no need for me to read the Report in detail, but one of the terms of the recommendation it made was that the first review should be carried out in time for any change of rate to come into force on 1st April, 1960. It is a vital part of the recommendation that all these reviews of pay should come into force, and it is no use the Secretary of State claiming that the Government have fulfilled their obligations merely by saying that they are looking into this question. It is a dishonourable way of dealing with a promise made to our serving men.
  In his speech the Secretary of State faced up to the shortage of personnel in the Royal Army Medical Corps and the Dental Corps. I was glad to hear of the new conditions for doctors—in particular, those concerning extra pay. The right hon. Gentleman told us that one of the paramount needs of the Army was to attract out-of-the-ordinary men and that he might have to take special steps in this direction. I hope that he will look into that question of shortage of craftsmen and fitters and of other grades in short supply. It may be that one solution is differential rates of pay in addition to the ordinary basic rate.

  739
  What alarmed me, and what may well alarm doctors and dentists and anyone else promised special rates of pay in future, is that the Government, when the time comes, may not honour their pledge, for now one will always feel bound to take into account their present conduct on the Grigg Report. What will their word be worth after this breach of their promises?
  The Memorandum contains a reference to the campaign for keeping the Army in the public eye. It is stated that the campaign has contributed to the success of recruiting. May we have some details from the Under-Secretary about the type of person recruited as a result of the campaign?
  We are told in the Memorandum that our Strategic Reserve is organised to be sent at short notice to any trouble spot in the world. If an army is to have the ability to function effectively, it must have, first, a clear operational doctrine which in turn depends on immediately available services if conflict is possible, although not necessarily imminent. This does not mean that forces should be on a war footing. I have raised this question on other occasions in the House of Commons. Is any part of the Strategic Reserve earmarked for duties in the course of the summer involving Territorial Army camps? In the past some units based in this country have been involved in this. I have questioned the Minister about this previously. I served for many months in a unit whose main task was to act as hewers of wood and drawers of water for the Territorial Army. From 1st April to the end of October this unit was certainly not fit to be sent to any trouble spot in the world at short notice. I hope that we can have an assurance—I am sure that it can be given—that no unit in the Strategic Reserve will be involved in duties of this nature this summer.
  Still on the Strategic Reserve, I hope that we can have an assurance that the two main infantry brigades and the divisional troops in this country are up to strength. I think that the assurance can be given. I am given to understand that there are a number of units based in this country which are not earmarked and generally form part and parcel of the Strategic Reserve. Perhaps we can be told how many of these, particularly
  740
  battalions of infantry, are in this country and what their strength is.
  In the early part of the year when there was a little local difficulty in British Guiana two companies of the Duke of Edinburgh's were sent out to deal with the trouble. They were part of the force earmarked for B.A.O.R., as I understand it. [Interruption.] I am told I am wrong about that. They were part of the Strategic Reserve and part of the infantry brigade. While it was obviously within the power of the Government to send out two companies to deal with this difficulty in British Guiana, why did they break up a brigade in this way to send out two companies? Was it because there were no other units available which could have been sent out to do this work?
  We were told by the Secretary of State earlier today that no further large-scale reorganisation of the Army is intended. Yet he toyed with the suggestion of a large infantry regiment. This is a little inconsistent. Perhaps the Under-Secretary will be able to tell us what is meant by the possibility of having a large infantry regiment.
  Paragraph 1 of the Memorandum says that one of our rôles is to fulfil our treaty obligations. Paragraph 2 says that the Army is required to make its contribution to N.A.T.O. For the first time our contribution to N.A.T.O. is now made dependent on financial considerations. I will not pursue this matter, which was raised on many occasions during the defence debate, beyond asking the Under-Secretary to put on record whether he is satisfied that the Government are fulfilling their treaty obligations. We have been told several times of the sad deficiencies in the British Army of the Rhine. Yet the Secretary of State was able to tell the House on the Third Reading of the Army Reserve Bill that in his opinion we are doing our share in Europe. We were told only the other day by the Minister of Defence that, although our latest commitment to B.A.O.R. is about 55,000 men, there are only between 51,000 and 52,000 men now there. That is a shortfall of 3,000. How can the Secretary of State tell the House on another occasion that we are doing our share in Europe?
  Let us look at the speech made by no less a person than the Prime Minister

  741
  in the debate on the Address in reply to the Queen's Speech. He said:
  "In the first place, whatever the size of the Army next year, it will not, and I admit it, be properly balanced. There will be shortages in certain administrative parts—curiously enough, not in the great fighting part of the Army but in the administrative units. Perhaps I should say, not curiously but naturally enough, not in the teeth but in the tail."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 31st October, 1961; Vol. 648, c. 35.]
  That was the categorical statement by the Prime Minister. As it came from such an august person, one might have been expected to believe it.
  But the following day the Secretary of State came to the House to correct the Prime Minister, and this was what we were told:
  "He was not suggesting that it was only in the tail that there were shortages, but what is correct is that the majority of the shortages are in the tail."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 1st November, 1961; Vol. 648, c. 305.]
  That was the gloss that we had the day following the speech by the Prime Minister.
  Which is it? Are there shortages? Where are they? Are they not everywhere? If there are these shortages, if we have in Germany at the moment only 51,000 or 52,000 troops when we are obliged by treaty to have 55,000, how can the Secretary of State tell the House on the Third Reading of the Army Reserve Bill that we are doing our share in Europe?
  I turn briefly to the question of weapons. The Secretary of State told us this afternoon that by the middle of the sixties every weapon used in the fifties will have been replaced. I welcome that statement. Perhaps it would be worth examining for a little while some of the points made in the Secretary of State's memorandum.
  As an ex-infantryman I am aware of the vital need to have proper anti-tank weapons and mortar fire and—even more important for an infantryman—a good system of locating from where the mortar fire is coming down on one. We are told that a new locating device will be coming into use for the first time. In respect of each weapon, the theme is that it is at some stage in the pipeline. The hon. Lady the Member for Renfrew, East (Miss Harvie Anderson) said that the equipment is coming along but is too long in coming. I echo her words.
  742
  It would be far better if we were told exactly what weapons we have, how many units have them, how many have not got them, and in what state of training each unit is with the weapons. Instead, we are told that they are coming, that they will be there some day, and that units are now beginning to train on them, depending what type of weapon is being discussed.
  My hon. and learned Friend the Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget) mentioned a certain infra-red device to facilitate movement and viewing by night which will be taken into use for the first time. There has been a controversy in the Press about these things. I should like to know whether there is something new in these devices or whether the newness rests in the fact that they are coming into use for the first time. We should be told. There is a significant difference between a new weapon and a weapon which is coming into use for the first time. If there is nothing new in these weapons, why were they not available many years ago? We are told that the Germans had them or something not unlike them in 1945 or earlier. The Under-Secretary should explain what he means by the phrase "coming into use for the first time."
  We are told various things about the Vigilant—that it is highly mobile, and so on. I will not go into its good qualities—
  Mr. S. Silverman: Except that we have not got them.
  Mr. Morris: I shall come to that. I compare the description of the Vigilant with another anti-tank weapon in the Navy Memorandum. One sees at paragraph 37 of the Memorandum on the Navy Estimates a description of the troop-carrying version of the Wessex helicopter, which will be armed with an anti-tank guided missile. There is a comment in The Times of 27th February, and I hope to hear from the Under-Secretary whether this is right about these weapons. It describes one which will be in use in the Wessex helicopter. This will be
  "the French SS.11—which it is claimed has considerably greater range than the British infantry weapon, Vigilant, and at a distance of two miles can stop the most heavily armoured tank."

  743
  Is that right? What are the capabilities of the Vigilant, when are we expected to have it and when will our troops be expected to be trained with it? When the rôles to be performed by those who will use the naval helicopters and by infantrymen are not unlike each other, why should the Army adopt—if it has—a different anti-tank gun to that used by the Army?
  There is an article in today's Daily Telegraph about the evaluation tests which are proceeding on two different warheads for the Vigilant, one British and one Swiss. The latter, we are told, is the cheaper of the two and has slightly less penetrating power, but
  "It is understood that the Swiss warhead acquitted itself extremely well in recent trials in Britain. It is available for immediate production, whereas the British warhead is not."
  Perhaps we can have a comment from the Under-Secretary about the state of progress on the Vigilant and what it can do.
  The same applies to the Malkara and the Wombat, to which the Secretary of State referred in his speech last year. We were told that there would be further deliveries of the Malkara in 1962–63 and that a general-purpose machine would start to reach the infantry in 1962–63. When will these weapons be available in full quantity for all units which need them, and when will the troops be trained with them?
  Of equal, if not greater, importance is a similar question about Blue Water. When taxed by my right hon. Friend the Member for Belper (Mr. G. Brown) in the debate on Tuesday, the Minister of Defence chided my right hon. Friend and said:
  "For example, the right hon. Gentleman took up the argument that the strategic nuclear deterrent was not really something which we could any longer call our own. He then immediately confused it by talking about tactical nuclear weapons."
  In defence of himself, the Minister went on to say:
  "Blue Water, of course, will be a completely British tactical nuclear weapon."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 6th March, 1962; Vol. 655, c. 330.]
  The emphasis should be on the words "will be." When are we expected to have this weapon, which the Minister of Defence relies upon so much to rebut the allegation made by my right hon. Friend?
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  There is not time tonight to discuss the Chieftain, but I hope that the words "we shall continue our trials" in the Memorandum do not mean that there is danger of this weapon being abandoned. The Secretary of State told us this afternoon of teething troubles. I should like an indication of when the Chieftain is expected to be seen on the ground by the troops who need it.
  Reference has been made in the debate by many hon. Members, including my hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. M. Foot), to tactical atomic weapons. My hon. Friend the Member for Dudley (Mr. Wigg) has on previous occasions questioned the lack of medium artillery by B.A.O.R. May we have a comment from the Under-Secretary on what my hon. Friend has said?
  This is an important and crucial question. What sort of war could B.A.O.R. conduct short of using tactical nuclear weapons? If it is possible to visualise any type of conflict, we should be told about it, but what level of conflict could B.A.O.R. conduct without nuclear weapons? We have had the comments of Sir Solly Zuckerman about the use of tactical nuclear weapons and what might develop therefrom. I am afraid that B.A.O.R. is utterly dependent on nuclear weapons and could not wage any type of war without them. They may be conventional troops, but they are such in name only unless they can carry out conventional fighting. When one examines whether or not these troops are conventional, one must obviously consider whether they are capable of undertaking conventional fighting.
  Mr. S. Silverman: If my hon. Friend is convinced that B.A.O.R. could not carry out any effective form of conventional warfare without the use of tactical nuclear weapons, and if he thinks that that situation is wrong, can he explain why he is not proposing a vote against the Estimates?
  Mr. Morris: Of course, my hon. Friend has moved an Amendment to reduce the number of men, and, indeed, he is opposing the Estimates as they stand. That is not in accord with the policy of Her Majesty's Opposition. We should like to have a far greater number of men in B.A.O.R. and not fewer, as my hon. Friend would wish.

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  To prove what I have been saying one need only consider the exercises that have been undertaken by B.A.O.R. over the years—from Battle Royal—in which I had the honour of playing a small but insignificant part—to Spearpoint. Each major exercise has been based on the use of tactical nuclear weapons. Therefore, I must ask the Minister at what level is B.A.O.R. trained without the use of these weapons? Perhaps the Under-Secretary will give us some clue.
  Regarding the "'Ever-readies", the Secretary of State has said that there will be a reduced bounty for members of the Queen Alexandra's Royal Auxiliary Corps. Can we be told the figure? I believe that a wrong decision was taken to train the "Ever-readies" with the Territorial Army, and, indeed, to make them a part of the Territorial Army. We are told in the Memorandum that there will be an additional stimulus to the sense of purpose of the Territorial Army. I would have thought that the action that is proposed will result in the reverse happening. These men, trained as part of the Territorial Army, will be whisked away when an emergency arises. Indeed, the Secretary of State had the blessing of the Territorial Army Council when this suggestion was first mooted. But these clucking noises will not be of much avail when the time comes and the pool of ex-National Service men will have dried up. They will no longer be available and the "Ever-readies" will be nothing more than Territorial Army trained men.
  The hon. Gentleman the Member for Bute and North Ayrshire (Sir F. Maclean) cast doubts about this matter in his speech earlier. These men may be whisked away to join a Regular unit, people with whom they have not trained and who they do not know. Not only might that harm the unit concerned, but it might harm the Territorial Army unit with which they were trained. Once this pool of ex-Service men has dried up this provision will be a dead letter.
  The aim is stated in the Memorandum; that we should have well-trained reserves for our forces. This can never happen under the present proposals, and I hope that when this stage is reached—and ex-Service men are no longer available—the Government will reconsider the training of these men—
  746
  over and above that of the Territorial Army. We are told in the White Paper that there will be an examination of the whole reserve system. I hope that that will include some extra training for the "Ever-readies" if they are to be of great value.
  I turn now to the Kuwait operation. I, too, congratulate the troops on what they did on that occasion, but I hope that the Government will not be carried away by the congratulations which they themselves have given to the troops for what was done. As I understand it, this was the simplest possible kind of military operation, if one excludes the climate. It was an unopposed landing. What if it had been an opposed landing? What is the War Office estimate of the force which the 4,000 men who were landed could possibly have dealt with? What was the air cover available for them, what reserves and reinforcements were available, and how soon would they have been able to come up? The Secretary of State said that we proved our ability at Kuwait. We proved our ability at Kuwait to undertake an unopposed landing of 4,000 men at that place, but what if there had been two Kuwaits, one of them opposed? What would our capabilities be in that situation?
  I come now to building, housing and accommodation. The Secretary of State said that this was one of the hardest nuts we had to crack. He mentioned the new barracks being built at Manston, Sutton Coldfield and Cwrt-y-Gollen. I give the Secretary of State, an Englishman, an alpha minus for his pronunciation of Cwrt-y-Gollen.
  The War Office has something to answer for here, having regard to the Third Report of the Estimates Committee. The excuse given—I am glad that it was not given by the Secretary of State today—for the fact that, while every kind of military expenditure went up by leaps and bounds, barracks, housing and accommodation had failed to come up to more than a third of the original estimate, was delays consequent on pressure of work in the building industry. The Estimates Committee had this to say:
  "Your Committee do not consider that conditions at the time the Estimates were framed differed significantly from those obtained during the financial year. They therefore believe

  747
  that the loss of so much as two-thirds of the programme must have been due in part to the Department embarking on an unrealistic programme. At the same time, they find it hard to believe that so great a shortfall was due solely to this factor. In any case the Department cannot escape considerable responsibility for the substantial discrepancy disclosed."
  It seems that in the order of priorities the Clores and Cottons of this world come very much higher in the queue than council housing and the provision of housing and accommodation for our fighting troops. It is the very existence and activities of the Clores and Cottons and the pressure upon building work which gave the excuse which was put before the Estimates Committee. Is it any wonder that our recruiting is not as good as it might be today? I was glad that that excuse was not advanced this afternoon.
  We heard a good deal from the Minister of Defence on Tuesday last about the need for joint Services co-operation and integration. Referring to paragraphs 23 and 24 of the Defence White Paper, he said that, as we learned to work more closely together, new possibilities of rationalisation and co-operation would open up. There is not so much in this as might appear, for the new organisation which is to be set up will report to the Chiefs of Staff. The only reference in the Memorandum of the Secretary of State for War is to joint Service training with the R.A.F. and the Joint Services Demonstration. The Memorandum is framed solely as an Army Memorandum, and there is no other suggestion of rationalisation and co-operation, let alone integration. I am quite sure the time will come when memoranda of this nature will have to be prepared not merely from the point of view of the needs and capabilities of the Army but rather as part and parcel of the defence system of this country.
  The hon. Member for Bute and North Ayrshire quoted the Prime Minister's remarks about the White Paper of 1957. The Prime Minister said it was sound, novel and dramatic. In the words of the hon. Member for Bute and North Ayrshire, our Army today is overstretched, under-stretched and out of balance. I am afraid that that is the situation. I wish it were not so.
  11.21 p.m.
  The Under-Secretary of State for War (Mr. James Ramsden): The hon. Member for Aberavon (Mr. Morris) began his speech in a disarmingly modest way, and had I been doing this job longer I should be able, without presumption, to congratulate him on having acquitted himself very well. I hope that I shall have the pleasure as the years go on of following him on many other occasions—from this side of the Committee, I should add. I shall endeavour later in my speech to answer some of the many questions which the hon. Gentleman put to me in the course of his speech.
  This has been a year of rather frequent debates on the Army, and I believe that there cannot be many—
  Mr. Emrys Hughes: On a point of order. I wish to draw your attention, Sir William, to the fact that in this debate, which is of such vital importance to the country and when so much money is involved, there are not sufficient Members present.
  Mr. S. Silverman: On a point of order. May I respectfully draw your attention, Sir William, to the fact that no one should be counted who is on the other side of the Bar?
  The Chairman: The hon. Member is not correct in his opinion. There are more than forty Members present. The debate will continue.
  Mr. Ramsden: I think that the Committee will regret the few moments which we have lost owing to the action of the hon. Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Emrys Hughes), who made a long speech himself. I regret the loss of time because I had hoped to conclude what I had to say in answer to the debate in time to give some of my hon. Friends, who I know are anxious to speak, the opportunity of making some remarks.
  I was saying that this had been a year of frequent debates on the Army. I do not believe that there can be many countries, if indeed any, of comparable standing to ourselves as military Powers whose Parliamentary system exposes the state of their Armed Forces to such frequent and searching scrutiny as ours are obliged to undergo. I must say that I hope this does not lead to wrong impressions either among our enemies or, indeed, among our allies.

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  It is in the nature of the way in which we conduct our affairs that the criticisms often get more publicity than do the answers. We give very full information to hon. Members and to the public, and we make things in that way and to that extent easier for our critics. Our only conclusive answer to the criticisms made of us is when the time comes for operations to be undertaken and when they succeed, as in Kuwait or the Cameroons, and now in British Guiana. Here, again, one must remember—and my hon. Friend the Member for Dorset, North (Sir Richard Glyn) made this point very effectively—that much of our force is deployed so as to prevent trouble from arising. If the trouble does not occur, that, too, is proof that the Army has done its job successfully.
  I would point out in reply to the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne that this is also true of Europe and of the wider picture of our defences. The Army plays a part in that wider context of our defence expenditure. Whether hon. Members opposite approve of it or not, and of the ways in which this money is spent, there is no denying that through the way in which it has been spent, as part of the whole Western complex of defence, the freedom from Communism not only of Western Europe but also of many other parts of the world has been secured for the past sixteen years. The hon. Member said that he had no quarrel with the declared Communist aim. But we should all accept that this constitutes a military threat, and it is from successfully averting that threat that our defence policy draws its justification in the period since the war.
  The hon. Member questioned whether our forces in Berlin were defending us in this country. The hon. Member for South Ayrshire said that we ought to bring them out of Berlin. I believe that most hon. Members accept that were our garrison not in Berlin—and it is there under international agreements and in fulfilment of solemn obligations undertaken by this country—nothing would be easier than for some sort of putsch or coup or take-over bid to be instigated from the east. My answer to the hon. Member is that they are defending us in this country in so far as we are part and parcel of the free world.
  Mr. S. Silverman: Is the hon. Member saying that if any attack took place in Berlin these men would be able to defend even themselves?
  Mr. Ramsden: With their allies, of course they would. Were they not there, the likelihood not of overt attack but of something equally deadly and effective would be increased.
  We welcome the interest of hon. Members. Over and above what has come out of this debate and the Memorandum which we have published, I hope that hon. Members will take advantage of a number of visits to Army establishments and troops in training which we propose to arrange during the rest of the year. In particular, they may be interested in the mobilisation exercise in the autumn. My right hon. Friend and I will do our best to see that hon. Members have a chance to see it.
  May I, in particular, commend the joint Services demonstration in early June of this year, where the firepower and mobility of many of our new pieces of equipment can be appreciated in a tactical setting and in an inter-Service setting, which is important, because the Army often works not alone but in collaboration with the other Services. This demonstration was originally fixed for the first Wednesday in June, but by good staff work and in deference to the known interests of the hon. Member for Dudley (Mr. Wigg), we realised that this was Derby Day, and we have been able to transfer the demonstration to the next day.
  This leads me to say something in more detail about new equipment, to which the hon. and learned Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget), among others, referred. In the Memorandum we try to give a full account of the state of the play. In return we are told a lot of it is stale news. I see no way out of this dilemma. The hon. and learned Member for Northampton said in a tragic tone of voice that it took about ten years for any new item of equipment to be developed. He was very nearly right; it takes about eight years to complete the development of a new weapon, through research and development to troop trials, line production and finally being placed in the hands of the troops. It does take a long time. We naturally tell the

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  House about it as soon as we can. This means that hon. Members have been familiar with the name for a long time before the weapon gets to the troops. But of one thing I am certain. It is no use trying to telescope the process. Each stage in the development of a weapon is equally important, and it is a false economy and may well lead in the long run to greater delays if we try to telescope the process and to jump the gun.
  The hon. and learned Gentleman asked me about infra-red developments. I think he must have taken a certain amount of the information from which he spoke from a recent article in The Times. This, however, I am assured, is misleading. The Germans did develop in the Second World War a complete range of infra-red equipment mainly for vehicle driving and night surveillance but the standard of performance was prety bad. They were heavy and cumbersome and for a time they were abandoned and the principle discontinued.
  We also had produced night driving equipment late in the war, and an hon. Friend of mine, when he read the Memorandum, told me that it had been issued to his vehicle among the first, in the later stages of the war and that he too thought that this was not anything very new. What has happened is that the principles of infra-red operation have been subject to research, refinement and development in the intervening years; the kind of thing that we are producing now is founded on a much more refined and complicated principle, and to that extent is almost entirely a new development from the kind of equipment to which the article in The Times, from which the hon. and learned Gentleman quoted, referred.
  The hon. and learned Member also made two points about wireless sets. First he implied that the C.13 set was very little better than the 19 set with which I think many of us are familiar. This is not true. The C.13 has a greatly superior performance, and in particular can work over the larger ranges which are necessary in the modern tactical conditions of greater battlefield mobility and more widespread movement of armour.
  Mr. Paget: What range does the C.13 have?
  Mr. Ramsden: At a guess—I have not the figure in front of me—about double that of the 19 set. If I am wrong, I will write to the hon. and learned Gentleman.
  Secondly, he criticised us for not having transistors in place of valves. The position here is that eight years ago, at the time when the range of sets which we are now using were beginning their development, transistors were still in their infancy. The hon. Member will realise that it is true that techniques which are suitable for commercial use and capable of very rapid commercial development are not always sufficiently robust and reliable for us to take on for service in the Army. We have got to have things which have been more thoroughly tested, which are able to stand up to rough handling and all types of climate. Although we shall get the transistor equipment, it will take a little more time. But as regards a set for the infantry of the "walkie-talkie" description, which the hon. and learned Gentleman asked about, as a result of the development which we have been carrying out, using transistors, we shall have a set for them shortly and this will be going into user trials in the course of the next few months.
  Mr. Paget: Does not this illustrate just what I was saying, that when we are entering an electronic age we really cannot afford an eight-year development because it means that by the time we get the article it is out of date? All non-transistorised radio equipment of this sort is today out of date.
  Mr. Ramsden: No, it still works.
  Mr. Paget: So does the 19 set.
  Mr. Ramsden: It is still operational. What we have now works better than the 19 set. I think it is the experience common to all countries which maintain armies and military equipment, that there is need for a long process of development of military weapons and equipment before they can be brought into service.
  Perhaps I may finish my reply to the other points raised by the hon. and learned Member. I will not embark again on the debate about Hong Kong except to say that on the whole my views incline to those of the hon. Member for

  753
  Dudley rather than to those of the hon. and learned Member; but, more seriously, I will attempt to deal with what he had to say about fulfilment of our N.A.T.O. obligations.
  He repeated the charge which had been made earlier this week from the benches opposite that we are welshing on our commitments to N.A.T.O. He mentioned the Western European Treaty under which we maintain our standing Army in Europe. It seems to me that there are two points here. First of all the Treaty and where we stand under it in relationship with our allies legally. The Treaty which we signed contained a provision under which, with our allies' agreement, we keep our forces in Germany at their present levels. They have been reduced, it is true, from their original level, but under the provisions of the Treaty and with the agreement of our allies. That is the legal position.
  There is the second point which the hon. and learned Member stressed, the point that, as he said, our allies had no option but to agree to reductions because, in his words, we should have made them anyway. This is the point of how we are fulfilling the spirit of the Treaty and our obligation to our allies in N.A.T.O. Our position on this is quite clear and has been made clear many times and is well known to SACEUR and our allies, and it is that, if need arose, we are in a position and have plans to make our forces in Europe fully effective for war in a matter of days. Once we had done so our numbers would be well above the minimum which N.A.T.O. has asked for. I think our position on this is perfectly clear. The line which the Opposition have sustained not only during today's debate but during the earlier debate this week about the adequacy of our contribution to N.A.T.O, particularly the matter of the strength of B.A.O.R., I find very surprising from an Opposition who devoted so much time and energy to opposing the Army Reserve Bill, the main purpose of which was to ensure that we kept up the numbers of B.A.O.R.
  Mr. Paget: Is the hon. Member suggesting that this arrangement is satisfactory to General Norstad?
  Mr. Ramsden: General Norstad is well aware of the position and well
  754
  aware of how we could make our military contribution effective if need arose. My right hon. Friend answered this question the other day. Military commanders are never satisfied with the amount of force which they have. They would fail in their duty to their troops if they were ever so, but I am satisfied, and so is my right hon. Friend, that we are in a position effectively to discharge our commitments to N.A.T.O. and our allies should the need arise.
  I thought that my hon. Friend the Member for Renfrew, East (Miss Harvie Anderson) was absolutely right in what she had to say about the rôle of our forces in N.A.T.O. and the relationship of our commitments in N.A.T.O. to our other commitments world wide. I thought she showed a much truer appreciation of these relative values than do hon. Gentlemen opposite, and I believe that they are wrong to discount the value of the influence of what we contribute in other parts of the world, as compared with the European theatre.
  The hon. and learned Gentleman finally criticised us over the question of pay and pensions. I must say that his approach to this question showed a certain inconsistency of thought. The hon. and learned Gentleman began by describing, correctly, the plight of pensioners whose means of subsistence has been eroded by rising prices. This is a fair point and both Governments since the war must accept some share of the responsibility for what has happened. But, having said that, he criticised the effects on Service pay of the very policy of restraint by which this Government are seeking to maintain the future value of pensions of all kinds, not only Service pensions.
  Pension increase measures have been introduced from time to time to relieve hardship caused to existing pensioners by severe falls in the value of money. As the hon. and learned Gentleman knows, the last such Measure had effect from 1st August, 1959. But because these were special Measures to relieve hardship, pension increases have been limited to those who need them most—incapacitated pensioners and pensioners and others reaching the age of 60 and so on. This has meant that Army pensioners and other pensioners from the public service do not qualify for pension

  755
  increases before the age of 60 unless they are invalids or permanently unfit for full-time employment. I cannot now give to my hon. Friend the Member for Dorset, North and others, an answer on the Government's intentions, beyond saying that we keep this matter constantly and sympathetically under review.
  On pay, the hon. and learned Gentleman suggested that the Government had broken the promise they made when accepting the Grigg Committee's recommendation for a biennial review. This is not so. We have carried out the biennial review and are to increase pay to the extent the review justifies. It is perfectly true that the increase will be given not in one step but in two, but the plain fact is—and I think that the Committee will accept this—that to pay the whole of the increase justified by the review straight away would be contrary to the need for restraint which the present economic position of the country imposes, and that is why we are spreading the increases equally over two years. I do not see how we could have done more without going against the policy on incomes set out in the recent White Paper, and I believe that this will be accepted as an overriding necessity in the light of the national policy.
  Mr. Paget: Is it not quite clear—I do not think that the hon. Gentleman has disputed it—that the Government's pledge on which these men were enlisted was not merely to review but to pay in accordance with the review? Now he says that part of the money which belongs, in honour, to the troops is to be postponed for a year. By that, does he mean that, at the end of the first year, the troops will receive the amount that has been held back this year—in the case of a private, £20—in addition to the rise next year? If it is just to be held back a year, that is what it means. As I understand it, the troops are losing half a year's pay that has been promised by the Government.
  Mr. Ramsden: They will eventually get the full amount of the review but not the back pay. To that extent, they will suffer, and are involved in the sacrifice which other members of the public, in the national interest and in pursuit of
  756
  the Government's policy, have been asked to accept. It would be quite wrong for an exception to have been made of the Services.
  Dame Irene Ward: Can my hon. Friend explain why, if it is possible for the Government under present economic circumstances to find even £14 million for increased pay for the Forces, it is not possible to find a relatively small amount for those people whom he himself says are having a very bad time because their pensions have been eroded by inflation? That argument has never properly been put, and no answer has been given to it.
  Mr. Ramsden: My hon. Friend tells me that there is no answer to it. She is a well-known expert on the subject. There is none better. I will not insult her by trying to find the answer.
  Dame Irene Ward: The Government have got to find the money. I cannot find it.
  Mr. Ramsden: I fully appreciate my hon. Friend's point of view. I think that she knows the policy and practice of successive Governments on this question.
  Dame Irene Ward: I do not agree with it.
  Mr. Ramsden: She knows that the situation is not allowed to be lost sight of.
  Dame Irene Ward: That is no good to the pensioners.
  Mr. Ramsden: I must get on. My right hon. Friend has already said something about recruiting. I wish to add a little on the aspect about which the hon. Member for Dudley spoke, namely, wastage. For control purposes we split the figure of overall yearly wastage into two parts—wastage of recruits, namely in the first three months, and the rest. The picture of recruit wastage is of a slight improvement from 21 per cent. in 1960 to 19·3 per cent. in 1961. The indications are that Parliament was wise when it gave us power to ban the discharge by purchase of recruits for eight weeks. There has been a dividend from the policy of new entrants having to take eight weeks to settle down and give themselves a chance to come to terms

  757
  with the Army. There has also been a dividend from the very considerable effort which has gone into what is sometimes called in jargon job induction. This merely means the application of common sense to try to ease the transition of these young men from one sort of life to another.
  Mr. Wigg: I take it that there is an actual reduction, on a percentage basis, of men applying to purchase their discharge under Section 14? It bears some relation to the volume of recruits. From what the hon. Gentleman says, it appears that there has been a reduction.
  Mr. Ramsden: Overall there has been a reduction in the percentage of recruits wasting out. That is as far as I was trying to go on recruits. For ordinary wastage there is very little movement one way or the other from last year, which is satisfactory to the extent that we have managed to reduce an adverse trend. If the two rates are added together to get the overall figure in total, there is a slight worsening from 8·3 per cent. to 9·1 per cent., but we are getting more recruits and the recruit wastage element weights the whole total more heavily. Altogether I am rather happier about this than I was last year, but we certainly must not be complacent.
  The hon. Member for Dudley alleged that we were taking in all sorts of unfit men and, as a result, were having after a few weeks to throw many of them out. I think he quoted a figure of 25 per cent. of one intake. He seems to have got hold of an unusual and very un-typically bad cross-section, because in 1961 2·8 per cent. of the total strength of the Army was discharged for medical reasons. For recruits alone the comparative figure was 3·3 per cent. of the total intake. Over the last year or so the figures for medical discharge have been fairly steady. The figures I have quoted for 1961 are a slight improvement on those for 1960.
  Mr. Wigg: Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will write to me about this, but we must not let it go by default. We must not be misled by figures of medical discharge as a percentage of the Army as a whole. If the hon. Member will write to me and let me have details of medical discharges of recruits in relation to the total intake and also tell me the
  758
  numbers discharged under Section 14, I shall be satisfied.
  Mr. Ramsden: It is rather difficult to absorb, as it is to give, these figures in the course of debate, but if there is anything I have not covered I will certainly write to the hon. Gentleman.
  Still on recruiting, I do not believe that the charge that we are using high pressure methods to scrape the barrel is fair. I do not believe that it can fairly be said that T.V. scrapes the barrel. It taps a bit of it which was quite untapped before we went in for television advertising. I believe that our campaign confronts potential recruits in their homes with the possibility of a life's career in the Army and gives them an option which in the ordinary way they would not have for making up their minds. It does a little to make up for the disadvantage that we are at in getting young men compared with civil industry which is always just down the road with its immediate attraction for young men leaving school, and which can take them younger. I do not believe there is anything more sinister about it than that, and I do not believe we are in any way lowering our standards. I was very glad to have the confirmation of my hon. Friend the Member for Dorset, North who, I know, has made considerable study of what is happening in this regard.
  Last year my right hon. Friend mentioned a number of improvements in the soldier's lot which he intended to introduce, and as this is eventually the real cure for wastage—to make the Army an attractive place where people will want to stay—it might be appropriate if I gave a very short account of our progress in some of these particulars.
  First of all, there is the extension of leave travel concessions for Regular soldiers. These have been primarily directed to easing the burden of unavoidable separation for the married man. But the single soldier has not been neglected. Married men serving with their families outside North-West Europe may now travel home once a year provided that their tour is for not less than two years, and the married unaccompanied soldier in Germany is now allowed two extra free journeys to this country each year in recognition of

  759
  the difficult housing situation in some stations there.
  Movement around the world is inevitably the soldier's lot, and when a quarter is not provided, settling in a new home costs money. Account is taken of this to some extent by local allowances, but we have recently introduced a new scheme of a settling-in advance of up to 15 days' pay and allowances with a maximum of 30 days in special cases to help married men when they are having to move into private accommodation abroad. I believe that this will be a help.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Renfrew, East asked about education. I assure her that we have made some good progress in the last year or so. Fifteen hundred more places were provided in Army schools abroad last year, and they now cater for 28,500 children. On top of that, more than 4,000 new primary and secondary school places are in course of provision in Germany.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Aldershot (Sir E. Errington) asked a number of questions, and I should like to comment on one in particular. He said that the War Department contribution to the Aldershot rates had dropped recently. I am afraid that this is true and that it is inevitable that when we carry out demolitions and spaces and buildings are left empty there should be a loss in rateable value to the local authority. In this regard, I am afraid, Aldershot is in no different position from any local authority where a developer pulls down property and there is a period of unoccupation. But, perhaps in a sense it is better off than others, since, because of the presence of the Army, my hon. Friend's constituency can look forward to the redevelopment of these sites by the Army and eventually an increased contribution to the rates.
  Sir E. Errington: The point I was making was that there has been—not necessarily through the fault of the War Office—delay in the rebuilding, and all the time the delay is causing a loss of rates to the borough. The important thing is to get on with the building.
  Mr. Ramsden: I appreciate what my hon. Friend says. No one is more
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  anxious than we are to go ahead and complete our programme of building barracks and other quarters.
  The hon. Member for Aberavon asked a number of questions. I cannot tell him specifically what amount of recruits we get from the "Keeping the Army in the Public Eye" campaign. This is part, with many other schemes, of our general recruiting effort, and it is impossible to produce an analysis.
  The hon. Gentleman asked about the strategic reserve, whether it is up to strength, and to what extent some units might have to help in T.A. camps. I am afraid that I cannot answer in particular. He will appreciate that I do not want to be drawn into details about strength. In general, however, my answer is that the strategic reserve, whatever the temporary requirements may be, as its primary responsibility is kept ready for use in its primary rôle. There are also a number of battalions at home outside the strategic reserve ready to undertake internal security operations if need be.
  The SS.11 anti-tank guided missile, about which the hon. Member for Aberavon asked me, is not man-portable and, therefore, is not suitable in the same rôle as the Vigilant will eventually fill with the infantry. The hon. Member asked about a warhead for the Vigilant. If there were a Swiss warhead or, in conformity with our policy, any other warhead available anywhere else which would do the job and come up to specification and be ready in time, we should, naturally, consider it.
  Although criticisms have been levelled at us, some of which I have tried to answer, I believe that the Committee would like me to end on a note of wishing the Army well in all its responsibilities during the next year. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] We often ask ourselves why men join the Army. We have spent a lot of time and trouble in trying to pinpoint the reason and we have had a variety of answers. The one that is common to them all is that in service with a good unit, people find a sense of comradeship and purpose and of working together for a common good as part of something which, they feel, is bigger than their own private well-being. I believe that the opportunity to feel such a sense of purpose is something for which modern life provides increasingly

  761
  few opportunities outside the Service. It is up to us to see that those who look for this in the ranks of the Army find it there; otherwise we shall not get the men we want and we shall not be able to keep them.
  To do that, my right hon. Friend and I have to arrive at a realistic assessment of the proper rôle of the British Army in the modern world and to ensure that its numbers, organisation and equipment are such as to let it do that job to the best advantage. That is what we seek to do and in this aim I should like to feel that we have the support of the Committee. I hope that the Committee will pass the Vote and reject the Amendment moved by the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne.
  11.58 p.m.
  Mr. Emrys Hughes: There was a conflict of opinion between the Secretary of State for War and myself about certain figures. My figures were supplied to me by the War Office. The Secretary of State challenged the figures, which were his own figures. I should like to
  know, therefore, what exactly is the position. Does the Secretary of State know what the figures are? Were the figures supplied to me accurate? If they were, ought he not to withdraw his statement that my figures were wrong? We are entitled to an explanation from the Secretary of State for War about these figures, because it is an important matter affecting my constituency.
  My argument was that the figures for Ayrshire did not show any considerable increase in recruiting for Ayrshire. I gave the figures as they were given to me in a Written Answer on 5th March. Therefore, in using these figures in debate, I was entitled—
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Martin Redmayne)The Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Martin Redmayne) rose in his place and claimed to move, That the Question be now put.
  Question put, That the Question be now put:—
  The Committee divided: Ayes 120, Noes 2.

  No.118.]

  AYES

  [11.59 p.m.

  Agnew, Sir Peter

  Hall, John (Wycombe)

  Osborn, John (Hallam)

  Aitken, W. T.

  Hamilton, Michael (Wellingborough)

  Page, Graham (Crosby)

  Allason, James

  Harrison, Brian (Maldon)

  Pearson, Frank (Clitheroe)

  Balniel, Lord

  Harvie Anderson, Miss

  Peel, John

  Batsford, Brian

  Hastings, Stephen

  Pitt, Miss Edith

  Bennett, F. M. (Torquay)

  Heald, Rt. Hon. Sir Lionel

  Profumo, Rt. Hon. John

  Biffen, John

  Hendry, Forbes

  Pym, Francis

  Bingham, R. M.

  Hill, J. E. B. (S. Norfolk)

  Quennell, Miss J. M.

  Bishop, F. P.

  Hirst, Geoffrey

  Ramsden, James

  Black, Sir Cyril

  Holland, Philip

  Rawlinson, Peter

  Bossom, Clive

  Hornby, R. P.

  Redmayne, Rt. Hon. Martin

  Box, Donald

  Hornsby-Smith, Rt. Hon. Dame P.

  Rees, Hugh

  Brown, Alan (Tottenham)

  Hughes-Young, Michael

  Ridley, Hon. Nicholas

  Bryan, Paul

  Iremonger, T. L.

  Ridsdale, Jullan

  Buck, Antony

  Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye)

  Roots, William

  Carr, Compton (Barons Court)

  James, David

  Shepherd, William

  Carr, Robert (Mitcham)

  Johnson, Eric (Blackley)

  Smith, Dudley (Br'ntf'd & Chlswlck)

  Channon, H. P. G.

  Johnson Smith, Geoffrey

  Smithers, Peter

  Chataway, Christopher

  Kershaw, Anthony

  Studholme, Sir Henry

  Clark, Henry (Antrim, N.)

  Kirk, Peter

  Talbot, John E.

  Clark, William (Nottingham, S.)

  Kitson, Timothy

  Teeling, Sir William

  Cooke, Robert

  Langford-Holt, Sir John

  Thomas, Leslie (Canterbury)

  Corfield, F. V.

  Leavey, J. A.

  Thompson, Richard (Croydon, S.)

  Curran, Charles

  Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry

  Turton, Rt. Hon. R. H.

  Deedes, W. F.

  Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

  van Straubenzee, W. R.

  du Cann, Edward

  Litchfield, Capt. John

  Walder, David

  Eccles, Rt. Hon. Sir David

  Longbottom, Charles

  Walker, Peter

  Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)

  Longden, Gilbert

  Wall, Patrick

  Errington, Sir Eric

  Lucas, Sir Jocelyn

  Ward, Dame Irene

  Farr, John

  Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh

  Webster, David

  Finlay, Graeme

  MacArthur, Ian

  Wells, John (Maidstone)

  Fisher, Nigel

  McLaren, Martin

  Gammans, Lady

  Macleod, Rt. Hn. Iain (Enfield, W.)

  Whitelaw, William

  Gibson-Watt, David

  Maddan, Martin

  Williams, Paul (Sunderland, S.)

  Gilmour, Sir John

  Mathew, Robert (Honiton)

  Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

  Glover, Sir Douglas

  Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.

  Wise, A. R.

  Glyn, Sir Richard (Dorset, N.)

  Maydon, Lt.-Cmdr. S. L. C.

  Worsley, Marcus

  Goodhart, Philip

  Mills, Stratton

  Goodhew, Victor

  More, Jasper (Ludlow)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

  Green, Alan

  Neave, Airey

  Mr. Chichester-Clark and

  Gresham Cooke, R.

  Nicholson, Sir Godfrey

  Mr. Gordon Campbell.

  Gurden, Harold

  Noble, Michael

  NOES

  Foot, Michael (Ebbw Vale)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

  Silverman, Sydney (Nelson)

  Mr. Emrys Hughes and

  Mr. William Baxter.

  Question put accordingly,
  That a number, not exceeding 251,000, all ranks, be maintained for the said Service:—

  Division No. 119.]

  AYES

  [12.9 a.m.

  Foot, Michael (Ebbw Vale)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

  Silverman, Sydney (Nelson)

  Mr. Emrys Hugbes and

  Mr. William Baxter.

  NOES

  Agnew, Sir Peter

  Hall, John (Wycombe)

  Noble, Michael

  Aitken, W. T.

  Hamilton, Michael (Wellingborough)

  Osborn, John (Hallam)

  Allason, James

  Harrison, Brian (Maldon)

  Page, Graham (Crosby)

  Balniel, Lord

  Harvie Anderson, Miss

  Pearson, Frank (Clitheroe)

  Batsford, Brian

  Hastings, Stephen

  Peel, John

  Bennett, F. M. (Torquay)

  Heald, Rt. Hon. Sir Lionel

  Pitt, Miss Edith

  Biffen, John

  Hendry, Forbes

  Profumo, Rt. Hon. John

  Bishop, F. P.

  Hirst, Geoffrey

  Pym, Francis

  Black, Sir Cyril

  Holland, Philip

  Quennell, Miss J. M.

  Bossom, Clive

  Hornby, R. P.

  Ramsden, James

  Box, Donald

  Horneby-Smith, Rt. Hon. Dame P.

  Rawlinson, Peter

  Brown, Alan (Tottenham)

  Hughes-Young, Michael

  Redmayne, Rt. Hon. Martin

  Bryan, Paul

  Iremonger, T. L.

  Rees, Hugh

  Buck, Anthony

  Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye)

  Ridley, Hon. Nicholas

  Carr, Compton (Barons Court)

  James, David

  Ridsdale, Julian

  Carr, Robert (Mitcham)

  Johnson, Eric (Blackley)

  Roots, William

  Channon, H. P. G.

  Johnson Smith, Geoffrey

  Shepherd, William

  Chataway, Christopher

  Kershaw, Anthony

  Smith, Dudley (Br'ntf'd & Chiswick)

  Clark, Henry (Antrim, N.)

  Kirk, Peter

  Smithers, Peter

  Clark, William (Nottingham, S.)

  Kitson, Timothy

  Studholme, Sir Henry

  Cooke, Robert

  Langford-Holt, Sir John

  Talbot, John E.

  Corfield, F. V.

  Leavey, J. A.

  Teeling, Sir William

  Curran, Charles

  Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry

  Thomas, Leslie (Canterbury)

  Deedes, W. F.

  Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

  Thompson, Richard (Croydon, S.)

  du Cann, Edward

  Litchfield, Capt. John

  van Straubenzee, W. R.

  Eccles, Rt. Hon. Sir David

  Longbottom, Charles

  Walder, David

  Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)

  Longden, Gilbert

  Walker, Peter

  Errington, Sir Eric

  Lucas, Sir Jocelyn

  Wall, Patrick

  Farr, John

  Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh

  Ward, Dame Irene

  Finlay, Graeme

  MacArthur, Ian

  Webster, David

  Fisher, Nigel

  McLaren, Martin

  Wells, John (Maidstone)

  Gammans, Lady

  Macleod, Rt. Hon. Iain (Enfield, W.)

  Whitelaw, William

  Gibson-Watt, David

  Maddan, Martin

  Williams, Paul (Sunderland, S.)

  Gilmour, Sir John

  Mathew, Robert (Honiton)

  Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

  Glover, Sir Douglas

  Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.

  Wise, A. R.

  Glyn, Sir Richard (Dorset, N.)

  Maydon, Lt.-Cmdr. S. L. C.

  Worsley, Marcus

  Goodhew, Victor

  Mills, Stratton

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

  Green, Alan

  More, Jasper (Ludlow)

  Mr. Chichester-Clark and

  Gresham Cooke, R.

  Neave, Airey

  Mr. Gordon Campbell.

  Gurden, Harold

  Nicholson, Sir Godfrey

  Original Question put:—
  The Committee divided: Ayes 2, Noes 117.
  The Committee divided: Ayes 116, Noes 2.

  Hastings, Stephen

  Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh

  Roots, William

  Heald, Rt. Hon. Sir Lionel

  MacArthur, Ian

  Shepherd, William

  Hendry, Forbes

  Macleod, Rt. Hn. Iain (Enfield, W.)

  Smith, Dudley (Br'ntf'd & Chiswick)

  Hill, J. E. B. (S. Norfolk)

  Maddan, Martin

  Smithers, Peter

  Hirst, Geoffrey

  Mathew, Robert (Honiton)

  Studholme, Sir Henry

  Holland, Philip

  Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.

  Talbot, John E.

  Hornby, R. P.

  Maydon, Lt.-Cmdr. S. L. C.

  Teeling, Sir William

  Hornsby-Smith, Rt. Hon. Dame P.

  Mills, Stratton

  Thomas, Leslie (Canterbury)

  Hughes-Young, Michael

  More, Jasper (Ludlow)

  Thomson, G. M. (Dundee, E.)

  Iremonger, T. L.

  Neave, Airey

  van Straubenzee, W. R.

  Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye)

  Nicholson, Sir Godfrey

  Walder, David

  James, David

  Osborn, John (Hallam)

  Walker, Peter

  Johnson, Eric (Blackley)

  Page, Graham (Crosby)

  Wall, Patrick

  Johnson Smith, Geoffrey

  Pearson, Frank (Clitheroe)

  Ward, Dame Irene

  Kershaw, Anthony

  Peel, John

  Webster, David

  Kirk, Peter

  Pitt, Miss Edith

  Wells, John (Maidstone)

  Kitson, Timothy

  Profumo, Rt. Hon. John

  Whitelaw, William

  Langford-Holt, Sir John

  Pym, Francis

  Williams, Paul (Sunderland S.)

  Leavey, J. A.

  Quennell, Miss J. M.

  Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

  Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry

  Ramsden, James

  Wise, A. R.

  Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

  Rawllnson, Peter

  Worsley, Marcus

  Litchfield, Capt. John

  Redmayne, Rt. Hon. Martin

  Longbottom, Charles

  Rees, Hugh

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

  Longden, Gilbert

  Ridley, Hon. Nicholas

  Mr. Michael Noble and

  Lucas, Sir Jocelyn

  Ridsdale, Julian

  Mr. Martin McLaren.

  NOES

  Foot, Michael (Ebbw Vale)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

  Silverman, Sydney (Nelson)

  Mr. William Baxter and

  Mr. Emrys Hughes.

  Resolved,
  That a number of Land Forces, not exceeding 252,000, all ranks, be maintained for the safety of the United Kingdom and the defence of the possessions of Her Majesty's Crown, during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1963.
  Resolution to be reported.
  Report to be received this day; Committee to sit again this day.

  ADJOURNMENT
  Resolved, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Hughes-Young.]
  Adjourned accordingly at twenty-seven minutes past Twelve o'clock.

AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD
  Farm Accidents
  Farm Accidents
  Land Drainage Act, 1961
  Land Drainage Act, 1961
TRADE AND COMMERCE
  Agricultural Commodities
  Agricultural Commodities
  Cuba
  Cuba
  Local Employment Act (West of Scotland)
  Local Employment Act (West of Scotland)
  Resale Price Maintenance (Inquiry)
  Resale Price Maintenance (Inquiry)
  Motor Cars (Exports)
  Motor Cars (Exports)
  Donibristle Site, Fife
  Donibristle Site, Fife
  Imports and Exports
  Imports and Exports
  Eggs
  Eggs
  Sea-Water Distillation Plant
  Sea-Water Distillation Plant
  Films (Import Duty)
  Films (Import Duty)
  Export Credits Guarantee Department (Applications)
  Export Credits Guarantee Department (Applications)
  Irish Bacon
  Irish Bacon
  G.A.T.T. (Anglo-American Tariff Agreement)
  G.A.T.T. (Anglo-American Tariff Agreement)
NATIONAL FINANCE
  Incomes Policy
  Incomes Policy
  Universities
  Universities
  Local Authorities (Interest Rates)
  Local Authorities (Interest Rates)
  Government Departments (Translators)
  Government Departments (Translators)
  National Economic Development Council
  National Economic Development Council
  National Land Fund
  National Land Fund
HOME DEPARTMENT
  Remand Home, North Wales
  Remand Home, North Wales
  Horse Race Betting Levy Board
  Horse Race Betting Levy Board
  Jury Service (Nurses)
  Jury Service (Nurses)
  Crimes of Violence
  Crimes of Violence
EDUCATION
  Colleges of Advanced Technology (Overseas Students)
  Colleges of Advanced Technology (Overseas Students)
  Primary School Subjects (Modern Languages)
  Primary School Subjects (Modern Languages)
RHODESIA AND NYASALAND
  United Kingdom Emigrants
  United Kingdom Emigrants
  Constitution
  Constitution
  EUROPEAN ECONOMIC COMMUNITY
  EUROPEAN ECONOMIC COMMUNITY
LOCAL GOVERNMENT
  Manchester City Council (Housing)
  Manchester City Council (Housing)
EMPLOYMENT
  Government Department Employees (Earnings)
  Government Department Employees (Earnings)
SCIENCE
  Toxic Chemicals in Agriculture
  Toxic Chemicals in Agriculture
RAILWAYS
  Branch Lines
  Branch Lines

Preamble
The House met at three of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Durham

CIVIL ACTIONS: USE OF STATEMENTS TO POLICE
3.5 p.m.
LORD SILKIN: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether any changes are contemplated in regard to the disclosure in civil proceedings of statements made to the police in the course of a criminal investigation.]
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT KILMUIR): My Lords, on June 6,
1956, in answer to a Question by the late Lord Jowitt, I made a statement about Crown privilege for documents and oral evidence. In the course of that statement I referred to the practice with regard to the production in civil cases of statements made to the police, and I indicated that in some cases it was necessary to make a claim of privilege for such statements. The present position is that, in general, privilege is claimed by Minister's certificate or affidavit for statements made to the police in the course of a criminal investigation unless the maker of the statement consents to production or has died.
I am now able to announce two modifications of the practice. The first is that privilege will not be claimed in proceedings for malicious prosecution, wrongful arrest and other proceedings against the police where the justification for the prosecution, arrest or other police action is an issue in the proceedings, unless the disclosure of the statement would reveal the identity of a police informer. The second modification relates to the manner of claiming privilege for statements made to the police. The claim of privilege will still be made on the ground of public interest, but it is
1192
proposed that in future the claim should be made without a Minister's certificate or affidavit and that the court should be left to decide, having regard to the principles laid down in the cases, whether the statements should be produced. In the case of tribunals other than courts, however, the claim will continue to be supported, where necessary, by a Minister's certificate or affidavit. I should add that nothing I have said is intended to apply to Scotland, where the existing practice does not require any change.
LORD SILKIN: My Lords, this is undoubtedly an improvement on the present position, and I am very much obliged to the noble and learned Viscount for making the statement. It is, some people would say, not a very far-reaching improvement, but it is a step in the right direction. I should like to ask this question. On the occasion when we last discussed this matter in 1956, when the late Lord Jowitt asked a Question similar to my own, the noble and learned Viscount then said, in relation to the manner in which the question of public interest should be dealt with, that it would not be practicable to let the court decide; that it would have to be by way of a certificate from the Minister, because, even though the criterion would be the public interest, different courts might come to different decisions, possibly on the same set of facts, and that would be rather embarrassing.
Have the Government had reason to change their mind on that particular aspect of the matter? I heard the noble and learned Viscount answering a Question in 1956—indeed, I put a supplementary question which I am going to put again later. There seemed to me to be a perfectly valid objection to leaving it to the court to decide. Perhaps the noble and learned Viscount could make a statement on that point.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, on the general position, we have not changed our view; because, in addition to what the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, said, there is, of course, the question of the security case, where the Minister would obviously be in a better position than any court to decide. The noble Lord will see that in this limited field of

1193
police statements we are moving in that direction; and, as he said, those who are critical of our attitude on the general position will be glad to feel that we have moved in a limited field.
LORD SILKIN: My Lords, may I ask a further question? We are gradually building up a body of practice which, for the legal practitioner, may be somewhat difficult to discover. I do not know what steps it is proposed to take to secure publicity for this new practice and whether it can be incorporated in some document which will be readily available to those who have occasion to make use of it—say, in a White Paper or something of that kind. As things stand, it is not really satisfactory to have to look up Hansard to see what is the legal position of privilege.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I will certainly consider all possible methods, and the noble Lord can rest assured that those which seem most helpful to the profession will be taken. I was interested to note that in, I think it was, Professor Wade's hook on Administrative Law, he had devoted a sub-chapter to my last statement; so I hope that, in time, it will go into the text books. In the meantime, I will take some more rapid course, and I will let the noble Lord know.
LORD SILKIN: I thank the noble and learned Viscount.

DUMPING OF POLISH EGGS
3.12 p.m.
LORD WALSTON: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what steps are being taken to ascertain whether Polish eggs are in fact being dumped in this country; and, if they are, how long it will be before adequate preventive measures can come into force.]
THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD (EARL WALDEGRAVE): My Lords, no question of preventive measures in the form of an anti-dumping duty could arise unless my right honourable friend
1194
the President of the Board of Trade is satisfied that material injury is being caused or threatened to the British egg producers. It has not been suggested to my right honourable friend that the current level of imports of shell eggs from Poland is causing or threatening such injury. An application was made on February 27 by the Egg Marketing Board for imposition of anti-dumping duty on the grounds that material injury is threatened by the expected dumping of imports from Poland during the egg year beginning April, 1962. My right honourable friend is considering this application and is in touch with the Polish authorities about their intentions.
LORD WALSTON: My Lords, would it not also be worth taking into consideration the threat not only to the standard of living of the British egg producer, who to some extent is safeguarded by guaranteed prices and deficiency payments, but also to the British taxpayer, who, if the prices of eggs to the producer drop lower as a result of imports, has to "fork out" still more in Supplementary Estimates in order to make good the deficiency?
EARL WALDEGRAVE: My Lords, under the Customs Duties (Dumping and Subsidies) Act my right honourable friend the President of the Board of Trade always has to take three things into consideration when he is considering applications. He has to be satisfied that produce is dumped. He also has to be satisfied that this is causing or threatening material injury to the industry concerned. And, thirdly—and this is, I think, the answer to the noble Lord's question—he has to be satisfied that it is in the national interest to impose a duty. The noble Lord can rest assured that these matters are taken into consideration when these applications are considered.
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, but will the noble Earl make representations to his right honourable friend in this matter, because it appears that last year's pattern is repeating itself? Last week 4½ million Polish eggs were imported compared with ¾ million a month ago. Last year in April 70 million Polish eggs were imported. Although the noble Earl may think we are "hollering before we are hurt", surely it is in the public interest that we should shout now,

1195
rather than have to bemoan our fate next year over another £20 or £30 million on the Supplementary Estimates.
EARL WALDEGRAVE: My Lords, the application is now in for the future, almost hypothetical, case. But I should not like the noble Lord to think that the imports of Polish eggs now are running higher than they were at this time last year, because the exact contrary is the case. In January this year about 1,000 boxes of Polish eggs were imported, whereas in January, 1961, there were nearly 7,000 boxes. I have later figures which I can discuss with the noble Lord later and which show that the imports of Polish eggs now are very substantially less than they were at this time last year.
LORD PEDDIE: My Lards, would the noble Lord give an indication to the House as to the proportionate increase in the importation of Polish eggs, comparing 1959 to the present date, as compared to the importation of eggs from other sources?
EARL WALDEGRAVE: I am afraid I should have to have notice for statistics of that sort.
LORD WALSTON: My Lords, I think the noble Earl would agree that it is not only a question of the amount of imports, whether they are from Poland or elsewhere, that has to be taken into account, but of the proportion they make up of the total egg consumption of this country. And I think he would agree that the production of eggs in this country has increased to such an extent over the last twelve months that even were the importation of Polish eggs to remain at a lower level than last year's, the effect on the price might well be far greater for a smaller quantity of imports than was the case last year for a larger quantity of imports.
EARL WALDEGRAVE: My Lords, what effect various quantities of imports would have on price is, to a certain extent, a matter of conjecture. But I would, of course, agree with the noble Lord that the production of shell eggs from home sources provides almost the whole—I think, over 97 per cent.—of our total consumption. From the point of view of consumption of fresh eggs, any imports are very marginal.
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, if last year's April glut of Polish eggs repeats itself this year, can the noble Earl say whether the Government will be able to take steps quickly enough to stop that from doing severe damage?
EARL WALDEGRAVE: My Lords, the Egg Marketing Board, which is the proper authority to put in an application, has put in an application; and I would remind noble Lords that on occasion when the effects can be readily established the anti-dumping machinery can work very fast. I would advise noble Lords to recall what happened last year in connection with the barley application.
LORD PEDDIE: My Lords, may I ask a question on the current figures? What is the proportion to date of Polish imports out of the total imports during this past year?
EARL WALDEGRAVE: I am not quite sure whether I heard the noble Lord aright. May I communicate with him on those figures, as I do not have them readily available at the moment?

LONG-TERM WEATHER FORECASTS
3.18 p.m.
LORD ALLERTON: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will make long-term weather forecasts available to the public.]
LORD ST. OSWALD: My Lords, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Air considered this possibility a few months ago. He was then advised that the experimental forecasts for a month ahead, which the Meteorological Office had been making over a trial period, were not sufficiently reliable to publish. The matter will be reviewed in about a year's time in the light of further research and the results of more experimental forecasts.
LORD ALLERTON: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his reply. At the moment forecasts are available for several periods of weather on payment

1197
of a fee of, I think, £2. Could they not be broadcast by the B.B.C. or on television without payment?
LORD ST. OSWALD: My Lords, I do not know to what particular system the noble Lord is referring. We are not aware of any system of long-range weather forecasting which would be sufficiently reliable to be given Government or official backing.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, is it not a fact that there is an attempt to give forecasts for certain periods—say, about a week—in agricultural broadcasts on television?
LORD ST. OSWALD: My Lords, I think that in this case my noble friend is referring to longer-range forecasts than that. I think he is referring to forecasts a month ahead.
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, can the noble Lord say whether he can give any short-term forecast that it is going to become a little warmer?
LORD ST. OSWALD: My Lords, I only wish I could assist the noble Lord in this way.
LORD MORRISON OF LAMBETH: My Lords, could the noble Lord take steps with a view to the television people's giving simple, ignorant souls like myself some guidance about technical terms of the weather forecasts—for example, "A depression is approaching from Iceland", and others which I cannot at the moment remember? I do not know what a "depression" is or what it signifies. Could he arrange for the television forecasts to be done so that simple and working-class and ignorant people like myself could be given explanations as to what is meant by all the technical terms they use, because I do not understand the weather forecasts?
LORD ST. OSWALD: My Lords, it appears from the noble Lord's words that I do not know what a simple soul is. This point is rather outside the boundaries of this particular Question, but I will naturally communicate the noble Lord's wish to the proper authorities.
LORD AIREDALE: My Lords, does not Her Majesty's Stationery Office publish a short, concise and convenient guide to these matters? I believe it is quite cheap.

DRIVING RECORDS AND "C" LICENCE VEHICLES
3.21 p.m.
LORD DERWENT: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are now in a position to make a statement about the relaxation of the statutory requirements governing the records required to be kept by the drivers of commercial vehicles under Section 186 of the Road Traffic Act, 1960, which was discussed during the debates in this House on the Road Traffic Bill.]
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF TRANSPORT (LORD CHESHAM): My Lords, my right honourable friend proposes to seek power, through the Road Traffic Bill, to make regulations under the Road Traffic Act, 1960, to exempt from the obligation to keep records, under Section 186 of that Act, drivers of all "C" licensed vehicles not over 16 cwt. in unladen weight and operating within a five-mile radius of base. These regulations will apply for an experimental period of two years, after which the arrangement will be reviewed in the light of experience.
My right honourable friend has given the fullest consideration to the arguments advanced by my noble friend Lord Derwent during our debates on the Road Traffic Bill that a special and limited form of record should be introduced in specified cases in place of the present comprehensive record. He has also consulted the industry and trade union interests. He felt that the use of two forms of record would be confusing and would make enforcement more difficult. He decided, however, that there was a prima facie case for complete exemption from record keeping on the very limited scale have described, and that it would be right to try out such an exemption experimentally. My right honourable friend proposes therefore to put forward

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a Government Amendment when the Road Traffic Bill is considered in Committee in another place.
LORD DERWENT: My Lords, is my noble friend aware that there will be considerable disappointment that the radius of operation and the size of vehicles are both so restricted? But may I, at the same time, thank my noble friend and my right honourable friend the Minister of Transport for the fact that they have at any rate made a start in bringing some common sense into these regulations.
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, the answer to the first part of my noble friend's supplementary is, Yes; I was not surprised to learn that from him. But it is very nice to have his few kind words, even with reservations.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord this: as the Minister has said that consultations were taking place with numerous people, including the trade unions, have the trade unions approved this new radius of five miles?
LORD CHESHAM: I understand that the position was that the trade union interests consulted did not like it.
LORD MORRISON OF LAMBETH: My Lords, with great respect to the noble Lord—because we all admire the thoroughness with which he usually answers Questions—I wish he had explained what this meant. I had something to do with the original Road Traffic Act of 1930, but I cannot recall what Section 186 of the Act of 1960 is about. Is it about keeping records of journeys, with a view to checking up on whether drivers are being rushed too much or over-working? If it is, we ought to know. I think it is a very serious matter if relaxation is taking place on these matters, because this is a way of checking that drivers are not working too long a stretch, with the possibility of danger to the public and to themselves.
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, I am perfectly aware of these matters but, with the greatest respect to the noble Lord and what he has asked, I do not think it is for me to enlarge on the whole of the background of a Question which is put to the Government by any
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Member of your Lordships' House. Surely I should have been talking here for perhaps about an hour if I were to do that. I can only answer the Question as it is put. The noble Lord will perhaps remember that there was considerable discussion of this particular matter at various stages of the passing of the Road Traffic Bill through this House. I do not think it would really be for the convenience of the House if Ministers explained the whole background to every Question put to them.
THE EARL OF SWINTON: My Lords, is it not a fact that, if an Amendment is proposed and carried in another place, we shall have the advantage of hearing or reading what is said there, and that the Amendment will then have to come to us (for the Bill originated in this House), and we shall have an opportunity of discussing all the points raised to-day? Is that not the regular and proper procedure?
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, if this Amendment is accepted in another place (that is, of course, exactly what will happen.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, that does not mean that noble Lords on this side cannot get up, after the Minister has given his first Answer to the questioner and said that the trade unions were consulted, to ask whether they agreed. And for us it is particularly interesting to hear that they have not agreed, and all our fears in the matter remain.
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, the noble Viscount who leads the Opposition is perfectly right and proper, in my opinion, in his views and in what he has just said. I should like to make it quite clear that I took no kind of exception to anything he said or to any question he asked. I merely thought it wrong that one should have to give the whole of the biographical note, of the background of the Question; which is what the noble Lord, Lord Morrison of Lambeth, asked. He will see, when he comes to read his Hansard to-morrow that that is just what he did ask for.
LORD LINDGREN: My Lords the noble Lord will appreciate that the present records provide for an immediate showing of over-all working hours, permitted the maximum of nine hours'

1201
driving out of the toal of eleven. Will these proposed records still give the inspector the opportunity of ascertaining the commencing hour of duty in relation to the time at which the vehicle is stopped?
LORD CHESHAM: No, my Lords, Since the proposal is that certain drivers of certain vehicles in certain circumstances—all of which, as I think the noble Lord will agree, is very limited—will be exempted from record-keeping, there will be no record to show anything.
LORD LINDGREN: All these vehicles normally turn out to be those of the baker and the milkman. Will the noble Lord say whether or not these workers in the industry, and the public, are going to be protected, from the point of view of public safety, against excessive hours?
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, we think and completely agree with the noble Lord that the protection these measures were designed to give is invaluable in other circumstances for drivers of heavier and longer route vehicles; they are certainly of the greatest value there. But under this proposal the interests of the drivers and the public are not being jeopardised.

BRITISH MUSEUM BILL [H.L.]
LORD HURCOMB: My Lords, I beg leave to introduce a Bill to enable the Trustees of the British Museum to lend certain works of art for exhibition in Vienna under the auspices of the Council of Europe. I beg to move that this Bill be read a first time.
Moved. That the Bill be now read 1a.—(Lord Hurcomb.)
On Question, Bill read 1a, and to be printed.

ARMY RESERVE BILL
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.

EDUCATION BILL
3.30 p.m.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
LORD NEWTON: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lord Hailsham, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a
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second time. The Bill does two things. First, it provides statutory authority for the better arrangements for grants to students which were embodied in the Government's decisions on the Anderson Report; and secondly, it reduces the number of school-leaving dates in the year, as recommended by the Central Advisory Committee in the Crowther Report. The Bill extends to Scotland as well as to England and Wales. The detailed provisions are slightly different for the two Kingdoms, and reflect the differences in their educational systems.
The Committee which sat under the chairmanship of Sir Colin Anderson made a comprehensive survey of the system of awards to university students and students attending courses of a comparable level at other institutions. Their task was made more difficult by the strongly held differences of opinion among the witnesses. This occurred not only where these might have been anticipated—for example, between local education authorities and the National Union of Students—but also within bodies which might have been expected to present a common point of view. The members of the Committee could not themselves reach agreement on all questions, notably the difficult one of the means test. A similar division of opinion persisted throughout the subsequent consultations and negotiations which my right honourable friends the Secretary of State for Scotland and the Minister of Education undertook after the Report had been published. It was therefore impossible to produce a Bill which would please everybody.
There were, however, two fundamental issues on which there was no dispute. The first was that, provided a student had acquired the appropriate educational qualifications and was also offered a university place, he ought to be assured of an award. The second was that students everywhere should be treated alike when being assessed for the amount of their grants. I will refer to these two principles as "automatic awards" and "uniformity of treatment." It is the main purpose of the first part of this Bill to give statutory sanction to them.
The full significance of the principle of automatic awards becomes apparent only if it is compared with the system

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which it replaces. As things are now local education authorities have discretionary powers to make awards, but they have, quite naturally, taken the view that in exercising their powers they ought to satisfy themselves of a student's suitability. This has meant that a student has had to achieve two things: first he has had to win the offer of a place at a university and he has had also to satisfy his own education authority as to his suitability. It is true that nowadays nearly all local education authorities accept standard arrangements, so that, in practice, nearly all students obtain awards on the strength of their acceptance by a university. But it is still possible, and it happens from time to time, for there to be difficult cases in which a student is refused an award even though he has been offered a place by a university. The Government have accepted the view of the Anderson Committee that this process of double selection is wrong.
Accordingly, in Clause 1 the Bill imposes a duty upon local education authorities to make awards to students who have been accepted by universities for first degree courses, provided that they possess certain minimum academic qualifications. These qualifications are to be prescribed by my right honourable friend, and it is his intention to take two "A" level passes in the G.C.E. as the standard. This duty will extend to certain courses at technical colleges which are equivalent in standard to degree courses. Again, the qualifications for entitlement to an automatic award will be prescribed by my right honourable friend.
The scope of this duty to make automatic awards will have to be defined with some precision. For instance, it would not be right to compel local educational authorities to give grants to the same student for successive first degree courses, or to give grants to students from overseas who come to this country solely for the purpose of obtaining higher education. Clause 1 therefore empowers my right honourable friend to specify conditions and exceptions. This does not mean that students who fail to qualify automatically will be deprived of any chance of an award: in such cases authorities will still have
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powers to make awards at their discretion. These powers will, for example, enable an authority to help a student wishing to enter a university outside the United Kingdom.
In recent years a considerable advance has been made towards uniformity in the main elements, other than tuition fees, of a student's grant—by which I mean such things as board and lodging, cost of clothes, books, travelling and other day-to-day expenses. But there are other items, such as grants to attend courses during vacations, and grants for the dependants of married students, where the practice of authorities has varied widely. Consequently students in similar financial circumstances and attending the same course have found that their grants differ in ways which they cannot explain and which cannot be defended, even though the extent of the variation may be quite small. In the view of the Government, the time has come to lay down comprehensive standard rules for the assessment of grants in all their aspects, and Clause 1 enables my right honourable friend to do so by regulation. Some of these payments will still call for the exercise of an authority's judgment in an individual case, but a very close approach to uniformity can be achieved.
Arrangements giving effect to these two principles have been in force since last September. At the moment they rest on the co-operation of the local education authorities. This has been most willingly given, and very few individual cases of difficulty have been brought to the notice of my right honourable friends. Nevertheless, if these arrangements are to continue, as it is desired that they should, they must have the legislative backing which the Bill is designed to afford.
The question which naturally arouses the greatest interest and controversy is whether the means test should be retained or abolished. Indeed, I suppose it is true to say that most people associate the Anderson Report with this issue and nothing else, and they ignore the other important matters of principle about which I have just been speaking to your Lordships. This question can be argued from many points of view. Those in favour of retaining the means test say that to make university education completely free would be to

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cheapen its value and undermine the sense of parental responsibility. Those who argue for its abolition point to the burden which the present test imposes upon some parents. They also emphasise that our expanding universities are more and more recruiting the children of parents who have no previous experience of advanced education, or no appreciation of its value, and who may therefore be reluctant to contribute towards their children's maintenance.
Students themselves, we are told, are increasingly averse to remaining dependent upon their parents. Frequently that used to be said to me by student constituents of mine when I was in another place, and I always used to say to them, "But you do not mind being dependent upon other people's parents". I got no satisfactory answer to that. I mention that point only because it seems to me that this particular argument in favour of abolition is one of the weaker ones, and that there are so many which are much stronger. However that may be, there are many arguments on both sides, and they are clearly set out in the Anderson Report. In the end the Committee came down in favour of abolishing the means test by a majority of about 3 to 1, and the balance of opinion generally has followed much the same ratio.
In considering how far they could go at present in that direction the Government had to weigh the cost of complete abolition against the many other educational improvements which were competing for the money available. They decided that the time had not come for abolition, but that legitimate complaints about the effects of the present means test ought to be, and could be, met by a radical revision of the income scale used to determine how much parents are expected to contribute. Accordingly, a much more generous scale was worked out and introduced last September, at the same time as the other improvements I have mentioned to your Lordships.
This scale raises the starting point for contributions, with the result that the parents of 40 per cent. of students, instead of 25 per cent., as formerly, will now be entirely exempt from contributions and the grants will cover all expenses. Contributions from other
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parents will be substantially reduced. For example, a parent with an income of £800 and no other dependent children, who formerly was expected to pay £43 a year, will now have his contribution reduced by £30, to £13. For a parent with £2,500 a year and another child at boarding school, the reduction will be from £220 to £121—in other words about £100 less. Other improvements have been made. A minimum grant of £50 is now paid to all students, however well off their parents may be, and they are allowed to retain up to £100 of private income, including income from scholarships and prizes, without reduction from grant.
The statutory basis for these changes is in Clause 1, which empowers my right honourable friend to specify by regulation how grants to students shall be calculated. The revised income scale will be applied more widely than was envisaged by the Anderson Report, for the Government have decided to use it also for the assessment of grants to students who train as teachers. All these improvements will cost a good deal of money—£10 million this year—bringing the total cost of awards to students to £45 million. This figure will rise as the number of students in the various forms of higher education continues to grow. To abolish the means test now would add another £10 million, in round figures, to the cost; rather less if the income tax child allowance were withdrawn as the Anderson Report proposed, and rather more if it were continued. Before leaving the means test question, I should like to make clear that the Government's present decision does not preclude its ultimate abolition, and that the Bill has been drafted accordingly.
Clause 2 continues the power which the local education authorities already possess to make awards to students not following university first degree courses or comparable courses. All other courses of further education at lower levels are covered by this power, as are grants to post-graduate students. Grants to teachers also come under the Clause, but in practice this will not mean that they will not enjoy the advantages which the Bill confers upon university students. The two classes of student are dealt with differently in the Bill merely because local education authorities have for several years accepted the principle of

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automatic awards and uniformity of treatment for students at teacher-training colleges. They have a very definite interest in these students, since they run the majority of training colleges and employ the products. The present arrangements are working most satisfactorily, and there is therefore no need to impose a duty upon authorities.
My Lords, in addition to the awards made by local education authorities, my right honourable friend makes a substantial number to young people who enter universities through the State scholarship scheme. The Anderson Committee reviewed this scheme and concluded that it was no longer needed and should be abolished. The Government have accepted this view. State Scholarships will therefore be awarded for the last time this summer, but the Government will maintain all the scholarships current at that time until the holders have finished at the university.
Clause 3 provides for the continuance of certain other direct awards by my right honourable friend. First, there is the small scheme of Mature State Scholarships. This provides an avenue to the universities each year for specially selected candidates who did not have the opportunity to go to a university at the normal age, but who have had the enterprise and persistence to pursue their own education to the point at which they can profit from an honours degree course. It is right to maintain this special opportunity for these admirable people. Secondly, my tight honourable friend intends to continue offering post-graduate awards in arts subjects to a number of exceptionally promising students each year. These are people known as State Students, who deserve encouragement to pursue further study or research in preparation for academic careers. Thirdly, my right honourable friend will continue to make direct grants to students who train as teachers at university departments of education after obtaining their degrees.
Thus, my Lords, the first three clauses of the Bill establish the future structure of the system of awards to students. The great majority of awards are administered by local education authorities, whose responsibilities will increase when State Scholarships are ended. They are
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already incurring additional expenditure through their voluntary operation of the new arrangements. The Government therefore intend to adjust the general grant for the current period 1961–63. This will be done under Clause 7. The grant for subsequent periods will be negotiated in the normal way.
In Scotland the main principles I have described—that is to say, automatic awards, uniformity of treatment and a revised income scale—will apply equally as in England and Wales. The main difference is that, by general agreement, the grants for university, teacher-training and advanced further education students are being handled by the Scottish Education Department. So far as Scotland is concerned, it is only necessary in this Bill to amend somewhat the existing powers of my right honourable friend the Secretary of State and of the Scottish education authorities, and to provide for a reduction in the general grant in the current period in recognition of the transfer of expenditure from Scottish local education authorities to the central Government. The Bill provides accordingly.
Before I leave this part of the Bill, I should mention that the Government have accepted one major recommendation of the Anderson Committee which does not call for legislation. This is the establishment of a Standing Advisory Committee to keep under review the rates of grant and other relevant matters concerning students' awards in the United Kingdom as a whole. The Committee was set up by my right honourable friends the Secretary of State for Scotland and the Minister of Education. My noble and learned friend the Minister for Science subsequently joined them, so that the scope of the Committee could be widened to include postgraduate students receiving awards from the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research. We have been fortunate to obtain as Chairman of the Committee Sir Francis Hill, who was a member of the Anderson Committee and has close links with universities and local government. At the Government's request the Committee has worked hard to submit a report quickly, and I understand that it has just done so.
I come now to the second part of the Bill, which deals with school-leaving

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dates. Clause 9, which relates to England and Wales, gives effect to the recommendation of the Central Advisory Council for England, under the chairmanship of Sir Geoffrey Crowther, that the number of leaving dates in the school year should be reduced from three to two for those children who want to leave school as soon as they reach the upper limit of compulsory education. At present a child can leave at the end of the term in which he reaches fifteen. Under Clause 9, if he reaches fifteen in the five months from September to January, he will have to stay till the Easter holidays; and if he reaches fifteen in February to August, he will have to star till the summer holidays. Thus, the age at which a child can leave school under the Bill will vary between fourteen years, eleven months, and fifteen years, six months. The variation is inevitable if leaving dates are to be linked to school terms, instead of to birthdays.
The object of this change is to make the fourth year of the secondary school course more effective. With children leaving every term the fourth year is difficult to plan. If the children are grouped according to their abilities and attainments (a method which is sometimes called "streaming") the loss of part of the group each term unsettles the rest. If they are grouped according to the dates when they are likely to leave school (sometimes called "batching") the teacher has to deal in the same class with children of widely varying capacities and attainments who have probably moved up the school in different forms.
From the point of view of school organisation, it would be best to have one leaving date in the year—that is to say, the summer holidays—but it would create difficulties of other kinds. It would mean that more than half a million children would be looking for jobs at the same moment. It might not be possible to find jobs for all of them quickly, and the ones hit hardest would be those who were least able to look after themselves. It would also mean a very wide variation in the age at which children could leave school. With a school-leaving age of fifteen, half of the age group would be nearer sixteen than fifteen before they were free to leave; and if the school-leaving age were raised to sixteen, half of the age group would be nearer seventeen than sixteen before
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they could leave. On balance, therefore, the Crowther Report recommended that there should be two leaving dates, rather than one. The Government have since consulted both sides of industry, through the Joint Consultative Committee of my right honourable friend the Minister of Labour, and they have unanimously endorsed the Crowther recommendation.
My Lords, the effect of Clause 9 will be to add about 120,000 children to those in school in the spring term, and 80,000 in the summer term. The peak load for secondary schools occurs in the autumn term, and as there will be no change in the numbers in school in that term no extra accommodation will be needed. Nevertheless, as the schools will be very hard-pressed next year, when no teachers will be coming out of the training colleges because the course is being lengthened from two years to three years, the change will not take effect until September, 1963. This will have the incidental advantage of giving plenty of time to prepare parents for the new arrangements; and undoubtedly success for any scheme of this kind is conditional upon parental support.
Clause 10 makes as nearly as possible the same provisions for school leaving in Scotland. There has not been a Report in Scotland quite comparable to the Crowther Report, but my right honourable friend the Secretary of State consulted the local authority associations and the teachers' organisations about that Report, and it was generally agreed that an attempt should be made to reduce the number of leaving dates each year to two. It was obvious, however, that this might create difficulties in some areas. Some of them would be cutting down from six or seven dates a year. This would be much more drastic than in England and Wales, which have to cut down from only three. Moreover, difficulties might be found in placing school-leavers in employment in some areas of Scotland where economic conditions are not so satisfactory as we would like. It is therefore proposed that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State should have the discretion—to be used as little as possible—to allow any school to have three leaving dates instead of two.
My Lords, there is one other small change which I should perhaps mention. As I have explained, Clause 9 fixes a

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child's obligation to stay on at school by reference to his age on certain fixed dates, instead of making it dependent, as now, on the start of the term at his particular school. This will give the schools more freedom in planning their holidays, which becomes increasingly important with the growing congestion in the holiday months. But the main purpose is to make leaving dates correspond with local education authorities' arrangements for transferring children from primary to secondary schools. At present, with a fixed date for determining transfers from school to school, and variable dates for determining a child's obligation to stay on at school, there are odd variations in the length of his secondary school career. Under Clause 9, no child will have less than three years and two terms in a secondary school, and most children will have four years.
At the present time, two out of three children in England and Wales still leave school as early as they can after their fifteenth birthday. On the other hand, my Lords, there is virtually unanimous agreement among educationists that the great majority of early leavers would benefit more from another year at school than from their first year at this young age in a job. This view necessarily presupposes that the schools know what to teach the average and below-average children in their last terms in order to retain their interest and counteract any grievance that they are being denied the chance to go out into the world and earn good wages. This is not an easy problem, but much thought is being given to it. Certainly, it is clear, and accepted by all teachers, that a planned four-year course from eleven to fifteen is the basic requirement. That is why it is important to stop leaving at Christmas by children who may have had only three years and one term in a secondary school.
My Lords, those are the main provisions of this Bill, and I hope that I have explained them clearly. I commend the Bill to your Lordships' House, and I beg to move that it be now read a second time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Newton.)
3.57 p.m.
LORD LATHAM: My Lords, I am sure the whole House will be indebted to the noble Lord for the very clear way in which he explained the provisions of this Bill. This is really a "footling" little Bill, in relation to the many facets of education which demand urgent attention. The Bill deals with only two of them, as the noble Lord said, and, in our submission, it deals with them inadequately. It really manages to run away from the main issues of the educational system in this country. The Minister of Education in another place said that the Bill provides for modest advances in two directions. It seems to me that the advances are so modest that it is difficult to discern any movement at all.
The Bill is really a poor product of the two excellent Reports to which the noble Lord has referred, the Crowther Committee Report and the Anderson Committee Report. Both are outstanding Reports and, from all the wisdom and guidance to be found in them, the Government can only distil the inadequate provisions of this Bill. In fact, the Government have decided to adopt not the Majority Report of the Anderson Committee, or even the minority Report, but half the Minority Report. Then from the Crowther Report they have taken only one minor suggestion and have avoided the main conclusions.
As the noble Lord said, the Bill provides that local authorities must give grants automatically where a student is taking a university degree course or a comparable course, and where he or she has two "A" level passes. In this the Bill follows the Anderson Committee recommendations and is a step forward. But most authorities do this already, and it will merely regularise the present situation. It is no great advance upon what is the present situation. In his speech on the Second Reading of the Bill, the Minister of Education said that most authorities adopt this as their minimum standard. He went on to say—and I quote from the OFFICIAL REPORT of the Commons, of November 13 [Vol. 649 (No. 10) col. 37]:
"We do not expect the new system significantly to increase the proportion of students at universities in receipt of awards."
This is one of the "modest advances" referred to by the Minister of Education: nothing very substantial, as I have

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said, though an odd injustice here and there may now be avoided. For all those who do receive grants, the Bill provides that they shall conform to standard regulations laid down by Parliament—that is to say, a student will receive a uniform grant from whatever part of the country he or she may come; the same in amount and the same in the conditions attached. This, too, will remove a sense of grievance from some students, and is, if I may say so, very much worth while. However, as the Minister of Education himself admitted, pressure by successive Ministers over the years has achieved a considerable degree of uniformity among local authorities; and, here again, this provision will not have a very wide practical effect.
The Bill gives local authorities full discretion, as the noble Lord said, in making awards for further education courses other than first degree courses. This includes not only those taking full or part-time further education, but also those training to become teachers. The Minister of Education claims that one of the two fundamental principles on which the Bill is based is uniformity of treatment, to which the noble Lord has referred; but is it, really uniform treatment that all university students shall receive the same grants when those training for teaching, for example, will continue to receive different ones, depending on the part of the country from which they come? A person taking a course in engineering at Coventry may well receive a grant of one order while someone in Leicestershire may receive a different one—or, indeed, may receive none at all. The reason the Government give for not extending uniformity to this type of course is that they vary in standard and entrance qualifications. But do teachers' training courses really differ so much in standard from one part of the country to another? Do they really differ more than, say, university degree courses? Perhaps the noble and learned Viscount will enlighten the House on this matter when he speaks later in the debate.
I come now to a few observations on the means test. As the noble Lord has said, the majority report of the Anderson Committee was clearly in favour of abolishing the means test altogether. The arguments advanced were very cogent. Wherever the line is
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drawn between those parents who have to pay part of the fees and those who do not, it is bound to be arbitrary. As the Committee pointed out, over the years the system of public awards has been so extended that it now includes income groups who cannot be described as "poor". The Committee said—and here I quote from paragraph 167 of their Report:
"In our view to retain such a vestigial relic of the old conception of hardship is neither reasonable nor worthwhile, and we therefore advocate complete abolition of the parental contribution".
The fact that parents have to pay for or towards the university education of their children unquestionably prevents a number of well-qualified persons from going to the universities. Considering the shortage of graduates in this country, this is a waste of potential talent which I suggest, my Lords, as a nation we cannot afford. Britain has a smaller proportion of its population trained at universities than almost any other modern country. Only Ireland and Norway have less, I understand.
The Minister of Education does not apparently contest the validity of the majority view of the Anderson Committee. He said he had found their arguments convincing. He also said on the Second Reading of the Bill—and here I quote from the OFFICIAL REPORT, Commons, of November 13 [Vol. 649 (No. 10), col. 39]:
"It is hard to deny that, if education is free for the school child, it should be free for the whole-time student. That is logical."
Why, then, do the Government not implement the Majority Report? The Minister of Education argues solely in terms of cost. Yet, in fact, if the children's tax allowances were altered, as the Anderson Committee recommended, the extra cost would be in the region of no more than £10 million. This is just over 1 per cent. of the total education bill. The Minister claims that half a loaf is better than none, and relies upon the relaxation which it is intended to operate. In fact, the Government are giving nothing like half a loaf. At present, only 25 per cent. of the students receive the maximum grant. Under the present Bill, the figure will be 40 per cent. Thus, 60 per cent. of students will still receive less than the full grant, and their parents will have

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to pay something towards their university education—a pretty unequal half of the loaf.
But having failed to implement the Majority Report of the Anderson Committee, the Government then fail to accept the implications of the Minority Report—having it both ways with a vengeance, it seems to us. The most cogently argued case in the Minority Report is that of Professor Brinley Thomas, who said that if extra money was to be spent on grants it should be spent on students in the sixth forms, for it was here that the heaviest burden was often placed upon parents. Professor Thomas therefore recommended only an easing of the means test, not its abolition, on condition that at the same time substantial sixth-form bursaries were introduced in the maintained schools. What the Government have done is to adopt the half of the Minority Report which saved them money and reject the corollary, which was to spend what they saved on maintenance allowances for older children in secondary schools. The Government have not made any announcement that such allowances would be available. Perhaps the noble Viscount the Lord President of the Council will be good enough to say something with regard to that matter when he speaks.
There is no doubt at all that the waste of ability at the age of fifteen and sixteen plus is very serious. My Lords, 92 per cent. of the children of unskilled workers leave school at fifteen years of age. None of these children has the chance to take the "O" level of the G.C.E. at school. This proportion compares with the figure of 34 per cent. in the professional, managerial and clerical classes. This wastage is partly due to our secondary school system. It is undeniable that many children who have failed the 11-plus could have acquired the capacity for sixth-form or university education if they had had an equal opportunity to develop their talents. The much-maligned comprehensive schools are proving this to be the case year after year. Over one half of the children in London's comprehensive schools stay on beyond the statutory school-leaving age, and this compares with the national average figure of one-third. It is undoubtedly true that the waste at fifteen and sixteen is, in part,
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due to financial difficulties. This again can be seen from the Crowther Report, which showed that children from large families stood a much smaller chance of staying on beyond the statutory school-leaving age. Family allowances ought to be reorganised. They should be graduated according to the age of the children, with a particularly steep rise for those remaining at school after the statutory school-leaving age. In this way the maintenance allowance now paid by local authorities, subject to a means test, could perhaps be discontinued.
In this Bill, as the noble Lord has said, the Government have met even less of the Crowther Committee's recommendations than they have those of the Anderson Committee. The case for raising the school-leaving age to sixteen is absolutely overwhelming. I have already referred to the waste involved in early leaving and this cannot finally be ended until the school-leaving age is raised. The influences on children encouraging them to leave school early are so strong that, unless a longer school life is made compulsory, able children will continue to be without the education they deserve, the education they need, and the education which the nation needs that they should have. Raising the school-leaving age to sixteen will not simply be adding one more year to the school life; it will be something very much more than that. As the Crowther Committee stated, the fifth year of the secondary school course was probably the most valuable of all.
The Committee said that at present children were leaving school precisely at a time when the law of increasing returns was operating. The Committee maintained that the present alternative to full-time education—namely, day release and evening classes—was very wasteful; and they were not the most efficient way of educating children. Moreover, they could not be really effective until a child had received an adequate education at school, which really involved a five-year secondary school course. The Crowther Committee also emphasised the dangers to which immature young people were exposed by the mass media and skilful advertising techniques when they left school so early. The Committee said:
"There seems to us to be no social injustice in our community at the present time more

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loudly crying out for reform than the condition in which scores of thousands of our children are released into the labour market".
That is what the Crowther Committee said, and who can question its validity, and, indeed, its significance?
The Committee recommended that the decision to raise the school-leaving age should be taken immediately. This, my Lords, was two to two and a half years ago, and the Government have still not taken a decision. It really cannot be deferred much longer, otherwise it will not be possible to train sufficient teachers in time. The Committee recommended that the school-leaving age should be raised between 1967 and 1969, when there is a respite between the two bulges in secondary school education. If this period is missed, it will be a long time before another like opportunity will occur. To delay this is to put our future as a modern nation in peril.
One objection that the Government could have raised is that we have not enough teachers. But not long before he died, the late Professor Tawney made a sharp comment on this argument. He said:
"Of course there aren't enough teachers. They said that when people wanted the age raised from 12. You will never have enough teachers while you turn all these children out of school before their time and deprive them of their chance to become teachers or other useful beings."
And there is a good deal of wisdom in that. However, the Minister of Education did not choose to make his case in another place on those difficulties. He said on November 13 last [OFFICIAL REPORT, Commons, Vol. 649 (No. 10), col. 45] that raising the school-leaving age makes
"an assumption that we know what to teach the average and below-average children up to the age of 16."
He went on to say that that is not easy to do. Is the Minister really suggesting that we cannot learn how to teach children up to the age of sixteen in the five or seven years before the date at which the Crowther Committee proposed that the school-leaving age should be raised? Is that the attitude of the Minister?
The Government have resolutely failed to do anything about the Crowther Committee's major recommendations, but
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they have brought forward a trifling alteration of the leaving dates. At present a child can leave school, as the noble Lord said, at the end of the term in which it is fifteen. Thus, many children leave at Christmas in their fourth year in secondary school. This means in many cases that schools attempt only a three-year secondary course. It is apposite here, I think, to mention that, before the Crowther Committee reported, the Labour Party recommended that there should be only one leaving date instead of three; in other words, that children should stay on at school till the end of the school year in which they become fifteen. Now, nearly four years later, the Government have gone only part of the way towards that objective. If the Government will not announce the decision to raise the school-leaving age, they should, in our submission, at least have inaugurated a single leaving date at the end of the fourth year. The problems of industry can surely be overcome if sufficient thought and purpose were given to the problem.
My Lords, this Bill represents a missed opportunity. It is now eighteen years since the last major Education Act of 1944. The time is ripe for another major advance in the field of education. Much of the Act of 1944 still remains unimplemented. Two-thirds of our secondary school children are still educated in classes oversized by the limits set under the 1944 Act. The section of the Act providing for county colleges has never been implemented. The whole secondary school education system needs overhauling. The 11-plus is recognised as a failure by more and more education authorities. In fact, it has become a nightmare not only for the children but also for the parents. Selection at eleven is inevitably arbitrary. It penalises those who happen not to show promise early and it penalises particularly the working-class child. What is worse, it emphasises the class structure. It divides education unnaturally into two or three watertight compartments and involves great waste of talent.
The university system, the whole of our system of higher education, is woefully inadequate, is ill-organised and is beset with privilege. In the face of all these known difficulties, the insufficiencies and, let it be said, these inequalities

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of our educational system, the Government offer this miserable little Bill with its miserable proposals. We shall not impede its Second Reading. We shall seek to improve it as a measure by way of Amendments. I should say, as the noble Lord indicated, that the Bill also applies to Scotland, with certain differences of procedure as regards the payment of grants and the number of leave days; otherwise, I think that I am correct in saying that my observations would generally be applicable to Scotland as they are to England and Wales.
4.22 p.m.
BARONESS HORSBRUGH: My Lords, I should like to begin what I have to say by congratulating the Minister of Education and the Secretary of State for Scotland for at last having dealt with the very difficult problem of awards to university students. I know how complex that problem is, and I know that for some time many Ministers have tried to see what would be the best arrangement. A circular was sent out (No. 263), in March, 1953, which gave local authorities guidance and suggestions for securing more uniformity in their way of giving awards and in the amounts of awards. This circular also suggested two "Advanced" level certificates in the General Certificate of Education as the minimum requirements. Since then, we have had the extremely interesting reports of the Crowther and Anderson Committees, both of which have given us a great deal of information.
I have not the same opinion as the noble Lord, Lord Latham, who said that this is a "footling" Bill; that our education system is a nightmare, and, so far as I could make out, that everything was wrong. I am more optimistic, though I think that there is still a great deal that needs to be improved. Although this is a small Bill, dealing with the structure of education in two particular ways, I believe that it is of importance, and I welcome it. I have some doubts, however, about the second part, dealing with the school-leaving age, which I will try to describe.
As the noble Lord, Lord Newton, pointed out, the first part of the Bill provides for uniformity of treatment and automatic awards. The burden of selec-
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tion for university places, and therefore for awards, is being put where I believe it ought to be, as the Anderson Committee clearly lays down: entirely on the universities. This is going to be an extremely difficult task, and in both Reports there is a good deal about how it should be done. But no doubt the universities will be deciding for themselves what is the best plan. I think that it will lead to a greater linking up of the schools and universities, because it is not simply a case of seeing the marks for the examinations which would-be students have passed. It is more than that. It is a selecting from the many would-be students who seem to have the same academic prowess, but cannot all go to universities, those who can go forward and take their places.
We have to bear in mind that for some time there will not be places for all who wish to go to universities. The number is being increased rapidly, and it will go on increasing as the result of the more generous awards now being given. The great advantage I see about the proposal in the Bill is that the responsibility will be solely that of the universities. It will do away with the anxiety of the student, who has to find out if a university can give him a place, then find out if the local authority will give an award, and perhaps attend two interviews. Now he will know clearly that, if he has the necessary two "Advanced" level certicates and has found a place in a university, he will get the award.
Before passing on from this point, there is one question I should like to ask, and perhaps the noble Viscount, Lord Hailsham, will be able to answer it when he winds up. Will any assistance be given to students about applying to a number of universities? Can student "X" get a place in such-and-such a university? Should he try several at the same time, so as not to lose time, or should he wait to hear from one and then try another? I believe that every single student has this worry. I am not saying for a moment that all university places should be pooled, and that there should be a clearing house dealing them all out, but I would ask if it would not be possible to have a clearing house that could tell students that there will be no more vacancies in a particular university, that it is "house full", and they need not bother to apply. This would give

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them some guidance. I feel that when we are making things easier for these would-be students, we should be able also to look into this matter.
I come to the amount of the awards, from which I shall come to that controversial point, the means test. As we all know, the grant is made up of two sections. One is the payment of university fees and the other is maintenance, which, us the noble Lord, Lord Newton, pointed out, includes board and lodgings and allowance for clothes, books, incidental expenses, travelling and all the rest of it. Probably in most cases, local authorities pay the fees direct to the university and therefore this is separate from maintenance. When people talk about whether education at the universities is free or not free, they should take into account that the whole of the grant is not payment for education. It is also payment for the maintenance of young men and women who are living away from home and who are not in employment and cannot maintain themselves.
In passing, perhaps I might say one more thing about the maintenance award. I know that at the present time the Advisory Committee are considering how much the award should be. I hope that it will be made clear that the maintenance grant should really fit the circumstances. When Circular No. 263 was sent out in 1953, the Department obtained exact budgets from various universities. I think noble Lords will see in the Report that the country was divided into three, because expenses were different in different places. The expenses in Oxford and Cambridge were higher; the expenses in some other places were less, and the cost of living at home was even less still. I hope that we shall have a scheme. We want uniformity; but we want the maintenance to cover what is really maintenance. I want the students to have sufficient, but not to have too much: that is no good to the student, and it is not fair to the taxpayer. Some local authorities and some people in the past have suggested that these maintenance grants should be divided up and a definite sum given for, say, books; in fact, the Anderson Committee talk about £25. And some authorities, particularly those in Scotland, wanted to have vouchers, or to see receipts, so that they would be sure the money was spent
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on what it was given for. On other occasions we were told that the maintenance, the board and lodging money, so to speak, should not be given for the whole term, but should be given out weekly, because people might spend it all at once.
I hope that nothing like that will be done. These are young men and women growing up and they ought to be responsible. If they spend their money wrongly, then they will have learned to spend it better in future; and if they learn the hard way, they may remember longer. If they have an allowance of £25 for books, and instead of buying hooks they run a motor cycle with it, then the university will know. They will not be able to plead that they cannot do certain work because they cannot afford the books, as the university will know that they have had a grant for the books. I would leave it to the universities to look after this matter and treat these young men and women as responsible people.
I pass now to the subject of the means test. The noble Lord, Lord Latham, quoted some words of the Minister of Education in the Second Reading debate in another place, and I too had noted them. They were to the effect that education is free for the school child, so why not for the whole-time student at the university? He said that that was being said by many people; and we all know that it is. But it is not correct. The education of the school child is free, but the parents pay at any rate for the maintenance of the child up to the time when it enters for secondary education, when they may get a maintenance grant; and remember, my Lords, that they pay for school meals. Therefore, the maintenance of the school child is the responsibility of the parents. But there are no fees to pay. Later on a maintenance allowance is given on a means test.
I am going to put something forward to the Government which I am sure the noble and learned Viscount in reply will inform me the Government could not possibly accept. The Government have no doubt made up their minds, and I am sure that my suggestion (it was turned down by the Anderson Committee) will be turned down now. As to the means test, I should like to see the fees for university education free for everybody. Part of the grant is for the university

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fees and part is for maintenance, and I feel that we ought to look at each part from an entirely different point of view. I think our education at universities should be free, in the sense of people not having to pay fees, as fees have to be paid now in the same way that they are paid for schools. But it is a different matter when we come to maintenance, and it could well be argued whether the taxpayers are to give board and lodging and an allowance for clothes and the other things that have been mentioned to parents who perhaps have ample to pay for these things.
I know that the Association of Local Authorities put to the Anderson Committee the idea of having the fees for all students paid for them, and that was turned down. One of the reasons given by the Committee was that it would make so little difference to the parents, because, after all, the big burden was the maintenance. But I am not looking at the matter like that. It might make very little difference to the parents, but I think, logically and from the point of view of justice, we should have no fees in our schools (those who wished to pay could go to fee-paying schools), and young men and women should go to the universities and have their fees paid. I know I am on very delicate ground, but, no longer being the Minister and having no responsibility, from the Back Bench I can put forward ideas which I know are difficult of achievement. I cannot think that a scheme could not be arranged under which either the Government pay the fees or, if I dare suggest it although I think it would be even more unwelcome, they should be paid through the University Grants Committee.
If this cannot be done; if we are to have a much more generous arrangement for parents' contributions and 40 per cent. are to pay nothing, then the one thing we return to is the £10 million. Unlike the noble Lord, Lord Latham, I think we have to consider the £10 million and use this taxpayers' money to the best advantage. I can quite understand the reluctance of the Minister of Education and the Secretary of State for Scotland to take £10 million of the taxpayers' money for maintenance grants when there are so many other things in the educational sphere they want the money for. Knowing how difficult things are to
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arrange in the educational sphere, I cannot press that the £10 million should be used for maintenance; but I would urge that the matter should be looked at from the point of view of the fees.
Before I leave that part of the Bill which is mostly to do with Clause 1, there is one question that I should like to ask. Clause 1 (1)(a) says that the local authority can make awards to people who
"are ordinarily residents in the area of the authority."
I should like to ask the noble and learned Viscount whether he will see that the position of the children of Service people, and those who are perhaps working in the Dominions or the Colonies and are temporarily out of the country, is made absolutely clear. I am sure it will be the wish to look after those children in exactly the same way, but I know that very often the parents do not know to whom to apply, and there is a great deal of discussion between one local authority and another as to which area the parents last lived in before they went away. If that point could be made quite clear, and the parents and the authorities knew what has been arranged, it would be of great assistance.
I am sorry that State scholarships are to be given up. I quite see that now that the full award is being given there would not be any financial gain. I do not want to take up your Lordships' time unduly, and I will not go into the matter, but I agree with much that has been said by Professor Thomas in the Anderson Report. State scholarships gave a sense of prestige. It meant something to the students that they were working for the top prizes, and I do not think there is anything wrong with that. In addition, students who won State scholarships knew that they were certain to get a place in one of the universities. With the tremendous difficulty there will be of selection, as I see it, I am sorry that these scholarships are being given up, whether it is simply because there is no financial benefit in connection with them or (and I hope it is not this) there is an idea that everybody is the same and two "A" passes is sufficient. I wonder whether it is going to be sufficient. My fear about it—I do not think I can get round it—is that it may reduce the effort for some to get three "A" passes and some to get more, because they will

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naturally say: "How is the university to select "X" and not "Y" if they all seem exactly the same?"
As to Scotland, I should like to say only this. I am glad that their changes are greater, because they have not linked their awards as much to the actual maintenance of the place the student goes to as they have in England. As far as I gather, in future their awards will be to provide maintenance suitable for the university of the student's choice, or where the student has been accepted by the university. As I have said, the amounts vary. Of course, this will go on costing more. We see the trend now—and I am not against it; I am for it—of more and more young men and women choosing to go further away from home to a university rather than to stay at home and go to the university in their own city. Naturally, the expense is greater. Until now Scotland has not been taking that into account. I am glad the trend is like that, because I think it is good for these young men and women to get away. I think there is nothing more pathetic than for a young man or woman starting his or her career to be away from home for the first time in his or her life. They had far better go at the earlier stage if they want to do so. So Scotland will certainly be making a great change in their arrangements.
I come now to the second part of the Bill, the changes in school leaving. Here I have some doubts and fears. I confess at once that I am entirely against—I hope the noble Lord, Lord Latham, will not be very shocked, but I am afraid he will—raising the leaving age to sixteen at the present time, and for one reason above all. He said that people give the excuse that there are not sufficient teachers for them. I think there is nothing worse than to compel children to stay at school until sixteen; not to teach them well; to have the classes even more crowded than they are now; to have the teachers harassed, not being able to arrange their classes or streaming as they want because there are too many children with too few class-rooms and too few teachers. I think that would be far worse, because at the moment we are getting on with the voluntary arrangements. We are more and more persuading parents to keep their children in school, and that is all
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to the good. But we shall not persuade parents to go on keeping their children in school if, before the compulsory age, they find they are not getting good tuition, that they are not doing well and that the children themselves do not want to stay.
I think the Minister is doing absolutely the right thing. I think he has great courage. It is so easy to say, "I am so keen on education that I want to see the school leaving age raised, and I am going to do it". It is a temptation to us all, but I call it educational snobbishness, because you will not give those children better education. If we could get the numbers in the classes down, I would rather have the children stay two or three terms less in school but be in smaller classes. I think it would be very much better for the children.
As to this arrangement of leaving twice in the year instead of three times, I would point out to the noble Lord, Lord Latham, that the Crowther Report was clearly in favour of two occasions for leaving school, not one. The noble Lord, Lord Latham, thought it ought to be one. I will not bother to make more quotations from the Report, because I am sure the noble Lord has looked at it very carefully. The Crowther Report was entirely against it. But they were in favour of two. I have my doubts. I wonder if in some cases we should not still stick to three. The Crowther Report says:
"It is of overriding importance that boys and girls leaving school should be able to find employment".
I put this as the first difficulty. Can we be absolutely certain that if we cut down school leaving times from three to two in the year we shall be able to find employment for the school leavers? I know there have been consultations. In Scotland, because of the extra difficulties and because, as my noble friend Lord Newton pointed out, in some cases they could leave seven times in a year, the Secretary of State is keeping the power to have three school leaving times in the year if the education authority ask for it. I wish the Minister of Education had that power, too. I feel that this is experimental. If we find there is unemployment, as far as I can see we cannot make the change without legislation, and

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I wonder why the Minister of Education has not that power which the Secretary of State for Scotland is keeping, and, I think, wisely keeping.
In another place on the Second Reading the Minister said that he knew that some parents were already saying that their children would resent being kept on. I have heard from people that they call this "putting up the school age by the back door". I do not suppose that many parents of children in our maintained schools read Parliamentary Acts. But I do not think some of them would at all like to find in Clause 9 that when their child has attained the age of fifteen he shall be deemed not to have attained that age until the appropriate spring. This is our method of adding on to the school year for the child. It is, as I know, and as the Minister has explained, to give children a further time in school—a four-year course. The noble Lord, Lord Newton, told us—I did not take down the numbers—of the number of extra children there will then be in school. Are we going to give up the thought of bringing down the numbers in the classes? I know that 1963 will be a good deal easier, but I am looking at the time not merely when we shall hold the numbers we have now, and which are said to be right. 30 to 40 (we have that number only because we cannot keep them any longer), but when we shall have really smaller classes and really good teaching, so that some of our more difficult children should have their chance. Some of them at about the age of thirteen, the non-academic, are not happy in school. They are frustrated, they get into mischief, and I am extremely sorry for some of the teachers who are struggling with them. Their difficulty is with some of those children, and others, in the very large classes.
The Minister said that some parents might resent it. He went on to say that it is up to the parents to see that the Children understand the value of the extra term. I think it would be a task for some of the parents because some children, and some parents, think they are not getting the value. Are we quite certain that, by more time in school, we are going to give them real value? I say this because, although the noble
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Lord, Lord Latham, said this is a "footling" and inadequate Brill, and all the rest of it, I think it is absolutely necessary to point out that there must be a tremendous effort in the next eighteen months to devise courses for these boys and girls in school, and to see the very best way in which tuition can be arranged for them so as to keep their interest. We are seeing so many children of school age coming into the juvenile courts. They are frustrated; they are rebellious; but it is probably because they have no interest. Many of the mothers will say, "He had far better get to work and do a good day's work under better discipline than he is getting in school. I want him to go on with his education, but I want the education to fit the child." And we now have this arrangement whereby children are deemed not to be fifteen when in fact they are, so as to keep them longer in school. We shall have more children in school, and I doubt whether they are really going to benefit.
There is another difficulty. I feel that when we are doing this we must make a tremendous effort to get the good will of the parents. We have built up the goodwill of the parents during the last few years, and that is why children are staying on: but unless we have this good will we shall find great difficulty when the age is raised to sixteen. If we lose the good will now we shall not regain it, because, as has been pointed out, when the leaving age is raised to sixteen some children will be compelled to stay on to sixteen and a half. So I think we have, so far as possible, to explain to the parents the reasons for this; to take them into consultation about the interests of their children; and to see more and more how, with their good will, we can ensure that pupils in the schools will not feel frustrated and antagonistic. When I am told that it is easier for the organisation of the school—which is so difficult for the teacher if children in the same class leave at various times—all I would say is that if you get one or two of these antagonistic and rebellious boys in a class, it is more difficult than if you had them out. So it is for the individual pupil at this particular age that I think we have to make a particular effort.
I should also like to ask the noble Viscount whether he can explain to me (I quite believe that my ignorance is

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due to my own stupidity) what is the meaning of Clause 9 (1) (b) as it would appear that we have to deal with children who have already left school? I cannot feel that that is the meaning. Subsection (1) uses the words:
"(a) he is a registered pupil at a school, or
(b) not being such a pupil, he has been a registered pupil at a school within the preceding period of twelve months."
I presume that paragraph (b) refers to a boy who has been in some other school, but I am a little uncertain, so I should be very glad if I can be told what it does mean.
My Lords, I have spoken for longer than I intended but the subject is of tremendous interest. When you take up this Bill and look at it, it seems to be very dry, and it is a voyage of discovery, going through it, to see how it will affect education for children. Nevertheless, I believe that this Bill may be a real step forward, if it is properly used. In conclusion I would ask that, in explaining our new scheme of awards to the would-he students and their parents, we do not raise their hopes by giving them the impression that there will be more university places immediately, and that, because it is easier to get an award, it will be easier to get into university. That is not so: there will be more competition than ever. So much for university students. I also ask for the parents of children who are to be kept longer in our schools to be given a full explanation, so that some of the fears and doubts which I have expressed this afternoon may, when the time comes, prove to have been unfounded.
4.54 p.m.
THE LORD BISHOP OF DURHAM:
My Lords, I feel that the Bill is greatly to be welcomed and supported for the further encouragement it gives to men and women, especially young people, to undertake higher education, and because (as the Explanatory Memorandum says) it lays upon every local education authority uniformly the duty
"to make awards to students with certain qualifications attending university first degree courses or further education courses of a comparable standard."
I feel that I can safely say that any widening of educational opportunity so that men and women may develop their God-given talents for responsible use in the community will commend itself to
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the Church and receive the Church's firm support.
Under the heading "Some General Principles" the Anderson Committee Report states:
"The nation urgently needs the greatest possible number of highly educated men and women. It is true that greater public emphasis is at present laid on the shortage of particular categories such as mathematicians, engineers, scientists and teachers in these fields. But, while we would not attempt to dispute their importance, we would not agree that this should be allowed to distort the system of awards so as to favour one branch of learning above another. We are convinced that the nation should not depart from the ancient and sound tradition that young men and women go to the university to become all-round citizens and not merely to learn a special skill."
This conviction is also similarly expressed in the Crowther Report, and more than once.
My Lords, this Bill will enable the Minister to make regulations which will remove many of the inequities and anomalies as between one education authority and another in the award of grants for higher education, and we hope that some who have suffered under financial burdens, or have been deterred by economic factors from proceeding to higher education, will find these disabilities removed. But, as the noble Lady has told us, there still remains the important and uncompleted task of ensuring that those who qualify for higher education will, in fact, find places. By fixing two school-leaving dates in the year, in place of the present three, the Bill extends the school life of boys and girls beyond the age of fifteen, and this is a step towards the raising of the school-leaving age to sixteen. The value of it is seen in the high proportion of young people who at present voluntarily continue at school after attaining school-leaving age. At this age, especially, young people most need guidance and encouragement to find their true vocation in life and to discover their particular gifts and talents.
Clause 2 of the Bill we are told:
"replaces the present powers of local education authorities to make awards in respect of other courses of further education and the training of teachers."
Here, I would take the opportunity to express our gratitude and appreciation for what a great number of local education authorities have done in making further education grants to students at

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our theological colleges. A very high percentage of authorities do make these additional grants, and it is earnestly hoped that in the new arrangements this kind of help will be increased rather than diminished. Your Lordships will be aware that the Church is deeply concerned with the education and the best possible training of the men who are to enter its ministry. I am speaking not only about the Established Church but also about other Christian denominations of long standing who have this same concern.
The great majority of universities in England, and also the University of Wales, offer an honours degree course in theology. In the Session 1960–61, 1,698 students were reading for an honours degree in theology in twelve universities. A further 290 were taking a general honours degree course in which theology was a main or subsidiary subject. In addition, 349 were studying for a second degree in theology—a genuine second degree and not an additional first degree. Who are all these students? Some of them, especially those reading for a general honours degree, are intending teachers. Many of them plan to go on to a theological college for professional training as ministers of religion. Some are already members of and residents in the theological college while they work for their degrees.
The Central Advisory Council for the Training of the Ministry (of the Church of England) has, within the past month, published a brochure called University Courses in Theology. It gives details of courses at thirteen English universities and at the University of Wales and Trinity College, Dublin. In a foreword the Archbishop of Canterbury urges the claims of theology as
"an academic education in its own right".
He says:
"It includes the careful study of languages, the study of history, demanding insight into the methods of the critical historian. It includes the study of ideas."
The Anderson Committee Report, on page 19, states:
"The guiding principle in making grants to theological students appears to us quite clear. Awards should be as readily available for theological as well as for other studies. The award making body must necessarily take account both of the abilities of the student and of the standing of the institution at which he proposes to study. We are told that at
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present grants to follow university degree courses in theology are treated by local authorities on the same basis as application for degree course in other subjects. It seems however, that greater variations of practice as between one local authority and another occur about courses at theological colleges than about other courses. In so far as 'comparable' courses in theology may be available at non-university institutions we recommend that they should be treated for award purposes on the same basis as 'comparable' courses in other subjects."
The Report also specifically mentions at page 15
"an honours course in theology taken after graduation in another subject".
There are two reasons for giving strong support to this practice. First, a man of exceptional ability, for example in science or languages, probably ought to be encouraged to take an honours degree in these subjects before turning to theology. It is surely reasonable to expect that after this he should take his theological college qualification also at the highest level of which he is capable. Some local authorities express their agreement with this point of view by the award of grants for a second first degree. Others at present do not. The second reason is that many men make up their minds to offer themselves for the ministry while they are at the university. For example, in the figures I have already quoted, of the 186 men reading for a theological tripos in Cambridge, in 1960–61 only 27 were in the first year. The others had taken advantage of the Cambridge situation to change their course after Part I in another subject. The Christian ministry is a vocation not to be undertaken lightly or in an immature way. It is often not the uncertain but the mature who come to this decision after leaving school. My Lords, I submit it is a matter of concern to the whole community that this ministry should be both devoted and competent. The Church should be the last body to accept or seek assistance for a standard of training for its clergy which does not compare adequately with other forms of training.
May I end by expressing again a deep sense of gratitude to the many local education authorities who have shown recognition of the necessity for postgraduate students for the ministry to obtain additional training at a theological college and have made further grants for the purpose, and also have made awards to those who have gone

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straight to the theological college and not first to a university? May I also repeat the earnest hope that in the new arrangements under the Bill students for the ministries of the historic Churches in England will receive not less favourable treatment in the way of grants and awards from local education authorities than will he made to students in other fields, such as advanced technology, science, medicine and the like?
5.7 p.m.
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL AND MINISTER FOR SCIENCE (VISCOUNT HAILSHAM): My Lords, unless I am mistaken, this is the first speech that the right reverend Prelate has made in this House since he was translated to his present See, and I should like to welcome him in his new capacity. It is said that nothing improves by translation but I do not think that this necessarily applies to Bishops, and I can assure him that he is as welcome in translation as he was in the original tongue. I will, if I may, in welcoming him, seek to answer the point which he raised, before I deal with the more general issues which were raised by the other two speakers.
The position of the theological students is really entirely comparable with that of anybody else, and it is certainly correct that awards for theological students will be dealt with in the system established by this Bill in accordance with the recommendations of the Anderson Committee, to which the right reverend Prelate drew our attention and from which he quoted. They are in fact covered by the general framework of the Bill. Under Clause 1, of course, awards are established by the Bill in an automatic form for students attending a first degree course, and of course this would include squarely a B.A. (Theology) at any of the universities which offer one, or a B.D. at London University as a first degree course. The same is true of some other three-year university courses, as for instance the Associateship of King's College, which have the same validity. If they are not first degrees they would have to be designated as comparable to first degree courses under the provisions of the Bill, but in the guidance issued by the Minister for local education authorities to help them to operate during the current year arrangements similar to those em-
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bodied in the Bill, a comparable course has been defined as one intended for students of eighteen or over consisting of three years of full-time study or longer for reaching a university degree, a diploma or qualification accepted as equivalent to a degree in the Burnham Reports. The Standing Advisory Committee will not be bound by that definition, but they are unlikely to depart very far from it.
As regards the discretionary grants, which of course will cover all degrees undertaken after the first degree, since it is not the policy to give a second award for a second degree course or post-graduate course, it has for some years been the Minister's policy that local education authorities should make awards in suitable cases for postgraduate training of a professional and instructional kind as opposed to further academic study and research for which provision is made in the State studentship scheme for education which is still excepted from abolition under the terms of the Bill. On the whole, I think that these provisions for theological students should satisfy religious bodies. At any rate, without going the whole length and describing theology as the "Queen of the Sciences"—a view which has always seemed to me to be questionable, even before I was Minister for Science—I would certainly accept the view that it was very much an academic training worthy of consideration with other courses yielding degrees of a similar standing, and should be treated the same as anything else; and I think that the right reverend Prelate can rest assured that that is our intention.
My noble friend Baroness Horsbrugh addressed the House with all the authority which one expects from an ex-Minister of Education, and raised a number of questions, some of which I may be able to deal with in the course of my general argument, but some of which I must now take time over because they do not fit easily into any general framework. She asked me the meaning of Clause 9 (1) (b). I am not quite sure where her difficulty was, but I hope it will help her if I say that the object is to prevent parents from circumventing the law by taking their children away from school just before they reach the age of fifteen, thus escaping the obligation to keep them there as provided by

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Clause 9 (2) and (3). My noble friend also asked about the children of parents who, for some reason or another, are not easily defined as resident within a particular area—for instance, people in the Colonial Service. The Minister is taking power in the First Schedule of this Bill to direct in cases like this which local education authority shall have the duty to make the appropriate award. To some extent, this is only an extension of the present practice under which the Minister advises authorities in cases of doubt. At present, they normally accept his advice without question. He has now the power under the First Schedule of ensuring that they do so.
My noble friend also asked about what I might call compendiously an applications' clearing house for university students. This is a real difficulty, and she was quite right to draw our attention to it, although of course it does not, strictly speaking, rest with the Education Departments to provide a remedy. But my information, which I sought rather hurriedly when she raised the question, is that the universities are jointly engaged in working out admission procedures which will reduce the difficulty that students now encounter. No doubt they will have in their minds the problem which my noble friend has raised and will seek a practical solution, but I cannot at the present stage give her more information than that.
I turn now to the main speech from the Opposition Front Bench by the noble Lord, Lord Latham, who raised a number of points with which I will seek to deal. I was frankly disappointed in the attitude taken by the noble Lord. It is easy, and I think mischievous, to try to make Party capital out of educational matters. I have always tried to avoid doing so, although I personally have no doubt that on any fair comparison the Party of which I am a member has a reputation and a long record which would make it most profitable for us to do so. But the first thing to remember, I think, about educational matters—I speak as one who has been Minister of Education—is that we in Parliament, particularly Ministers, have to handle the children of all religions and all political persuasions in the country, and there really is only one way that I know of doing it—namely, applying one's mind quite seriously to the
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problem of giving every child, so far as we can, an education which would satisfy the parents of that child and one's own standards as being the best for the child in relation to its capabilities. To suggest that any general part of our educational system, such as the process of selection at eleven, which is not final, is anything in the nature of a nightmare, is really, I think, to betray oneself into causing anxieties in parents which really responsible people should not do.
Whether I be right or wrong in that, the noble Lord made a number of statements about the Bill and about the educational system generally which showed such a depth of incomprehension of the real issues involved that I cannot allow him to go unchallenged, even at this late stage of the debate. To take one of the smallest of the inaccuracies. I begin by pointing out that he was quite wrong in saying that teacher-training students will receive varying grants according to their place of residence. There really was no excuse for making that error, because in opening the debate my noble friend had explained that uniformity of treatment for teachers in training was achieved several years ago, in 1956, by agreement among the local education authorities. These students receive tuition and board from the college which they attend: their home education authority pays each student an allowance for books, clothing and day-to-day expenses; the grants are paid automatically and at standard rates. Students would be no better off if these arrangements were superseded by the imposition of a duty upon authorities.
I turn now to more important criticisms which the noble Lord has made, and I begin with his rather ungracious reference to this as a "footling little Bill". He made a number of individual complaints, and he ended up in a fine crescendo, suggesting, if he did not explicitly state, that there really was a case for a general Education Bill to supersede and take the place of the Act of 1944. This is plain educational nonsense, and the noble Lord has no excuse for not recognising it as nonsense. The defects in our educational system, such as they are—I do not think this is the occasion to go into them at any great length—to which he referred, such as oversized classes, the shortage of

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teachers, the inadequacy of our provision of further education, and the need for school building, as he knows perfectly well, are not things which can be dealt with by a new Act of Parliament; they are matters of educational administration. He has no excuse whatever for causing despondency and anxiety among the parents of this country by suggesting that in these respects education is being held up for want of a new Act of Parliament. This has no relation whatever to the facts.
And when he goes on to complain that we have not accepted the Crowther recommendations in respect of the raising of the school-leaving age, the merits of which complaint I will take time to examine in a moment, the least he could have done was to point out that we do not need an Act of Parliament for that either. Therefore, to make a criticism of this Bill because it does not make provision for it is simply to ignore the fact that the procedure for raising the school-leaving age is a matter for an Order in Council in England and Wales and for Regulations in neighbouring Scotland. One really has no excuse, with respect, for making a fully-mounted partisan attack on a Government Bill without taking a little more trouble to make the criticisms well-informed.
Now, my Lords, I come to the substance of some of these criticisms—those which have some relation to the Bill. I think the noble Lord ought really to have pointed out that, whatever may be said about our system of education in the respect in which we are discussing it this afternoon, ours is probably the most generous system in the world—by a long way. I take as two extremes of the educational spectrum the United States of America and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. It is, of course, quite true—and I have never sought to conceal it from the House—that I should like to see the number of places available in our system of further education very greatly extended indeed, and we have on recent occasions debated the extent to which that is true. But in America there is no general system of grants such as we are discussing to-day, although, of course, the proportion of students receiving further education is very much higher. There is subsidised tuition and there are generous scholarships, but only about 10 per cent. of
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students hold them. Most students have to rely on loans or earnings.
To take the other side of the educational spectrum, the U.S.S.R., there is what I think to be a deplorable institution there of competitive examination for entry. Tuition there is free, as my noble friend would like to see it, but accommodation and meals have to be paid for. Students receive stipends and family help, but one has to point out that for favoured students there are differential stipends, something which would be revolted from here on every educational ground. There are both sticks and carrots for the student in Soviet Russia. The stipend is suspended for bad work; one rather wonders how the pupil pays for his accommodation and food during this period of disgrace. Sometimes, if the work is good, the stipend is improved, which means, I suppose, he can get something more. All that is quite foreign to our system; and I think that while he was seeking to cause anxiety in the hearts of parents about the provisions of this Bill, the noble Lord should have said, quite plainly, that our system in this respect is probably the most generous in the world, and probably educationally the best, whatever its defects.
Now, my Lords, I do not propose to spend very much time talking about the raising of the school-leaving age to sixteen, because it was only by ignoring the most salient facts about it that the noble Lord, Lord Latham, succeeded in introducing it in order to discuss it at all. I would, however, simply say this and I am to some extent repeating what my noble friend Lady Horsbrugh said—that although, like most people, I look forward to the time when the compulsory leaving age is raised to sixteen, I cannot imagine, speaking as one who, not very long ago, was Minister of Education, a more disastrous step for the education of this country than to introduce it at the present time. I cannot imagine anything more foolish than to let loose upon the educational apparatus a flood of unwilling secondary school pupils for whom there was inadequate provision in the "C" and "D" streams. I cannot imagine anything less likely to produce a proper supply of scientists, technologists and graduates of all kinds, or more likely to discourage the parents of reasonable pupils from keeping them

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on at school to sixth-form stage, or making them fit for the universities. It is, to my mind, absolutely irresponsible at the present time to use the kind of talk about the Crowther Report which was employed by the noble Lord. Although I say again that I myself would longingly look forward to the day when the compulsory age was raised to sixteen, it seems to me, in comparison with some other things, to occupy a lower rate of priority, and I consider that the priorities given by my right honourable friend are the right ones.
I must add this. It was particularly extraordinary for the noble Lord, Lord Latham, to make this complaint when he quite rightly saw that one of the main priorities at the present time is the reduction of the oversize classes; when he knew—as I think he does—that the recruitment of teachers is limited by the rate of expansion that is possible in the teacher-training colleges; and when he must be aware that no one has suggested that the output of teachers could be increased to any sizeable extent through those teacher-training colleges unless, of course, one took the reactionary step of abolishing the reform that I introduced when Minister of Education and reducing the course back to two years.
I turn to the next point made by the noble Lord. He complained that we had not completely abolished the means test for parents, as the majority recommendation of the Anderson Committee suggested. Perhaps I might spend a little time on this, because I should like the House, and also the noble Lord, to realise exactly what it is that he is impliedly asking the House to do. The noble Lord quite rightly pointed out that the main defect of our provision of further education was a shortage of places. This is a matter we have to put right before we put anything else right in that field. He did not point out that to abolish the means test, as was recommended by the majority of the Anderson Committee, would not provide a single additional place in any institution of further education in the country. When, therefore, he talks about the wastage of talent, I respectfully and regretfully agree with him, but the idea that we should do anything whatever to improve that situation by adopting the majority Anderson recommendation is something
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which does not bear a moment's scrutiny.
would agree with my noble friend, Baroness Horsbrugh that there is a distinction in principle between free tuition at school and free maintenance at the university. It is, of course, free maintenance at the university—which includes food, clothing and lodging—with which the noble Lord, Lord Latham, is concerned when he talks about the implementation of the majority Anderson recommendations. But, my Lords, it is not as self-evident to me, at any rate, that the children of millionaires should have free board at a university every time they get two "A" levels at school, and it astonished me to know that the noble Lord is solemnly putting it forward as a recommendation from the Labour Party Front Bench that they should. I wonder what authorisation he has from his Party for suggesting that it is self-evident that children of millionaires should be paid for in regard to their keep, their food, their lodging, out of the taxpayers' pocket. It may be just, but I only say that it is not self-evidently just; and I must tell him that the effect of this is not negligible.
We went into this proposal most carefully when we were considering the Anderson Committee Report. We found that 25 per cent. of the additional cost—that is, 25 per cent. of about £10 million, a sum which the noble Lord on the Front Bench opposite seems to think is wholly negligible from the point of view of public finance at this particular juncture in our history—would go to the one-sixth of the parents in the highest income groups. That may be a very good thing to do, but it is a strange doctrine, indeed, coming from the Labour Party—and this when some parents in the lowest income groups, had we accepted the majority Anderson recommendation, would have been absolutely worse off, and most of the middle income groups would have been substantially unaffected.
My Lords, this adds up to my own judgment upon the educational priorities involved. I myself would put first in this field the increase in availability of higher school education to all, levelling up to the highest available standards; and, on an equal footing, increased places at universities and in other spheres of further education, before you spend £10 million providing, as to 25

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per cent. of the total, for the top one-sixth income bracket to keep their children at public expense. But that, my Lords, is because I have had to face the responsibility of being Minister of Education, instead of simply criticising educational policy from a Party point of view.
The noble Lord then referred to maintenance at secondary schools. Sixth form bursaries, as I think he called them, are given by local education authorities at their own discretion. I do not think there is any reason to suppose that they are not alive to their responsibilities. About half the local education authorities are already paying at higher values than those recommended by a Working Party in 1957, and all the rest are paying as much as, or more than, the Ministry recommended when I was Minister, at about the same time.
My Lords, my noble friend Lady Horsbrugh seemed to me to answer the remaining point made by the noble Lord, Lord Latham, which was that some four years ago, before they had the advantage of the Crowther Report, the Labour Party had recommended one school-leaving date rather than three. In this respect, at least, apparently the noble Lord was not accepting the Report, from whose recommendations he was complaining that we were departing. But as my noble friend pointed out, there is a very good reason bath for the recommendation in the Report, which recommended two leaving dates and not one, and for our decision to accept it. The reason is, of course, that it is highly undesirable to throw upon the labour market at one time the whole of the output of the schools. It is important to provide continuity of employment and, whether or not we are right in coming to this decision, we have the best of authority for doing so. The underlying suggestion that we were failing to do so for some obscure but clearly hinted at resistance to true educational doctrine, as I say, does not bear the smallest examination.
This Bill is, of course, not a large matter. The great issues of education are the provision of more places at universities and places of further education; the encouragement of children to stay at school, so that where their parents permit them they can take further education; the reduction of classes, and the completion of the provisions for secondary education con-
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tained in the 1944 Act. It is true that these are not dealt with by the present Bill, for the reasons that I have tried to indicate, and it is no defect of the present Bill that it fails to do so. The present Bill effects an improvement which can be dealt with only by legislation, and so far I think it has emerged unscathed from the criticism to which it has been subjected.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

ACCOMMODATION FOR B.A.O.R. TROOPS IN TRANSIT
5.35 p.m.
LORD MOLSON LORD MOLSON rose to ask Her Majesty's Government whether they cannot find less expensive accommodation for troops delayed on the air journey from Ringway to the British Army of the Rhine than by engaging rooms for them in an expensive hotel. The noble Lord said: My Lords, there was a sensational item of news in one of the daily newspapers suggesting that troops were being accommodated in a luxury hotel, and I think it desirable that Her Majesty's Government should be given an opportunity of explaining how this came about and justifying it, as there was a suggestion that it was unnecessary extravagance.
I have made some inquiries and, as I understand it, since October all trooping has been done by air, so far as was possible. When troops are delayed owing to technical trouble, the company which has undertaken the contract for trooping is responsible for the accommodation of the troops who are delayed. In cases where the delay is due to unfavourable weather, the cost is borne by Her Majesty's Government. I understand that, in the case of troops moving from Gatwick to Germany, they are accommodated in the Union Jack Club or at an air trooping centre. When they are travelling from Ringway, they are accommodated in a hotel in a neighbouring town, in Buxton.
What I should like to ask Her Majesty's Government is; are they satisfied that this is in every way the most economical and, at the same time, the most satisfactory accommodation? Of course, considerations of economy must weigh highly, but naturally one wishes that troops delayed should be decently accommodated in every way. I should

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like to ask what arrangements there are for the general maintenance of discipline during an interruption of this kind. I wonder how much it costs to transport the troops from Ringway to Buxton, and what is the cost of the accommodation in the hotel. It would be interesting to know—unless there is a special reason for not disclosing it, in which case I should certainly not wish to press my noble friend to make any disclosure—what is the cost per head, and what the total cost has amounted to since October, 1961.
My Lords, I am not in any way wishing that the Armed Forces should be treated in a miserly manner, but at the same time we are all very conscious of the desirability of economy. Especially at the present time, when largely increased Estimates are being presented, I am sure that Her Majesty's Government would be glad of an opportunity of explaining how it came about that it was possible for a newspaper to publish a somewhat sensational item of news with photographs. I beg to ask the Question standing on the Order Paper.
5.39 p.m.
VISCOUNT GOSCHEN: My Lords, I do not know anything about the particular question which the noble Lord has asked, but what I want to make certain is that it will not go out from this House that troops, when they are detained due to weather, or for other reasons to do with aircraft, should be invariably herded into huts and made uncomfortable. This trooping by air is now going very well, and those of us who were in Germany the other day were told that it does make a great deal of difference, both to the troops who are actually on trooping, being taken out as reliefs or as a unit, and to those who are going backwards and forwards to Germany on leave. It would be a pity if this new system, which is running so well, were spoiled by their having to be made uncomfortable once again, as they were at the Hook of Holland. I am sure that Her Majesty's Government have an answer to this particular case, and I hope that people will not assume that it is necessary for troops always to be made uncomfortable.
5.40 p.m.
LORD OGMORE: My Lords, I should like to support the noble Viscount, Lord Goschen, in this because I think that the
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Question on the Order Paper has been rather unfortunately framed. It seems to imply that troops as such should not be accommodated in an expensive hotel. On that, there are two points. First of all, why should troops not have the opportunity of being decently accommodated, whether the hotel is expensive or not? The question is not whether the hotel is expensive, but is the accommodation necessary at the particular place where the troops happen to be? That is the real point. We must get away entirely from this idea that the troops are second or third-class citizens. They are first-class citizens, and they are just as much entitled to the best accommodation that can be given to them as anybody else is. If somebody goes abroad on business, whatever his rank or grade may be, he gets proper accommodation provided by his firm. Why should the soldier not get from Her Majesty's Government just as good accommodation as the businessman? The soldier is a very important person today. Goodness only knows! there are few enough of them, and they are hard enough to get. We shall not get the number of recruits we require if this sort of attitude is adopted. I hope that the Minister, when he replies, will be very firm on this.
The second point which the noble Viscount. Lord Goschen, made, one with which I entirely agree, is the general question of trooping by air. For years past he and I, and others in this House, have pressed the Government to go in for air trooping. We have said all along that sea trooping is expensive. It takes a long time; and, while troops are coming from the Far East or from Africa, then, so far as the Army is concerned, they are out of existence. It may take a month or five weeks for a battalion or a regiment to come home by sea, whereas by air the whole operation could be concluded in 48 hours. So far as expense is concerned, I believe that maintaining troopships and the like is far more expensive than the method which is now being employed of charter aircraft. Furthermore, it is good in the national interest that private firms (and the State airlines, for that matter, if they get the tender) should obtain charter tenders of this nature. It keeps the aircraft employed; it keeps the pilots employed; and it is a good thing, especially out of season, when the

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summer visitors are not available. For all those reasons I hope that the Minister who is going to reply to-day will give us an answer which will satisfy the Forces and will satisfy the public that we in this House, at all events, and I hope the Government, too, regard the soldier as a first-class citizen.
5.44 p.m.
LORD ST. OSWALD: My Lords, it may help if I explain in some detail our trooping arrangements for North-West Europe. They were, as my noble friend said, reorganised last October, so that practically all our passengers are now moved by air. This followed a trial period of one year during which about a third of our Servicemen, their wives and families travelled by air. The experiment was very successful. It showed that travel by air was cheaper and more convenient than by sea and train. That is the background of this whole policy, my Lords—it is cheaper and more convenient, as was emphasised by the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore. British United Airways were awarded the trooping contract on a competitive basis. They use Viscount aircraft, and fly from Gatwick, near London, and Ringway, near Manchester. These two airfields were chosen so that passengers from the North would not have to come all the way to London and so incur high travelling costs—that is to say, again, it was cheaper and more convenient that way.
Once a passenger has reported to British United Airways, it is the aircraft firm's responsibility under the contract to arrange accommodation if the flight is delayed for any reason. The cost of this accommodation is met by the contractor if the delay is caused by technical trouble with the aircraft, and by the Services if the delay is as a result of bad weather or for other reasons outside the contractor's control—and in this, also, my noble friend was correct. Most of the passengers—that is to say, nearly five-sixths—go from Gatwick, and if any serious delay occurs there they are normally accommodated at the Union Jack Club, the Joint Services Air Trooping Centre at Hendon, or, failing these two, at hotels. In Manchester, however, there is no similar suitable Service or club accommodation, and hotel
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accommodation is far more restricted than in London.
There are, in theory, three possible courses of action if flights from Ringway are delayed. First, we could disperse the men and their families to their homes until the delay was over. In view of the wide area from which they come, this would be quite impracticable, as well as being inconvenient to the families concerned, and also very expensive. A second course would be for the Services to provide some sort of transit accommodation similar to the Joint Services Air Trooping Centre at Hendon for passengers who are delayed, and I think that this is what my noble friend is seeking. But for this purpose we should have to put up new buildings, or at least rehabilitate existing ones, and also employ a permanent staff. This would be a very expensive way of insuring against what are comparatively rare delays affecting only very few of our passengers. Since we began full air trooping to North-West Europe last October, only 3–8 per cent. of those who went from Ringway were delayed overnight. Indeed, the Select Committee on Estimates in another place, who recently investigated trooping, recommended that the Services should close down the Joint Services Hostel at Hendon, which performs a similar function, as soon as the needs of passengers, including accommodation, can be met more economically. For these reasons, therefore, this course is not acceptable.
This leaves the third possibility—the use of hotel accommodation of some sort in the local area. Extensive inquiries were made before British United Airways decided to use the Palace Hotel at Buxton, to which my noble friend has referred. Hotel accommodation in Manchester is scarce. There are three hotels which are capable of taking a full planeload of passengers, but the contractor found that it was impossible to find room for large numbers at short notice in any of them. In any event, they were more expensive than the one at Buxton. Smaller hotels could take only parts of the load, and here, too, there was difficulty in finding room at short notice. But in any case it is impracticable to have a plane-load of passengers (or, as occurred in January through fog, three plane-loads) scattered among half a dozen different hotels in different areas

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of Manchester. Apart from having to ensure that the passengers are being looked after properly—for, after all, the Services acknowledge that these passengers are travelling at the Services' rather than their own choice—we should be faced with an administrative problem in taking the passengers to their hotels and collecting them again when the aircraft was ready to leave. It would be equally impracticable to put the numbers involved in boarding houses, especially at short notice. It is far more satisfactory to have all the passengers under one roof. As a result, the hotel at Buxton, which is only 15 miles from Ringway, was chosen.
My noble friend asked me for the cost of transport, but I am afraid I cannot give him that detail. However, I might say that the route from Ringway to Buxton lies almost entirely through open country, whereas, of course, the route to Manchester, as I know only too well, lies through a very heavily built-up area, and therefore, in terms of time, there cannot be very much difference. At Buxton, the charter company has a standing arrangement, which applies whether the company or the Services pay for the accommodation, under which the hotel makes a substantial reduction in the normal charges. These charges vary, depending upon whether accommodation is required for the full day or just for bed and breakfast. The charges have been arranged as a result of an agreement between British United Airways and the hotel. They regard them as confidential, and I do not think it would be fair to expect me to reveal them. They are, however, substantially below the normal charges made.
The noble Lord also asked me what the cost would have been at the Hendon Joint Services Air Trooping Centre or the Union Jack Club. The daily rates at these places are 17s. 6d. and 20s. If the passengers delayed at Ringway had been brought to London, the extra fares would have cancelled out any possible saving on the hotel bill.
Since full air trooping began last October, 8,199 passengers have gone through Ringway, of whom 315 were delayed for one night or more. The longest delays occurred at the beginning of January, when 105 passengers were
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held up for four nights, and 51 passengers for three nights, because of fog. Previously, a total of 159 passengers had been delayed, for one night on two occasions in November, and on one occasion in December. All these delays were due to bad weather, and we can expect them to decrease in the spring or summer months, or so I devoutly hope.
While, therefore, this arrangement results in something above the normal standard of Service accommodation being provided, it is the most economical and practical course. Other hotel accommodation arrangements would, because of distance or dispersal of passengers, result in further delay to aircraft. They might possibly affect return and subsequent flights, and they would undoubtedly result in additional costs of various kinds that would exceed the cost of the accommodation at Buxton. The noble Lord also inquired about the arrangements for discipline when troops were delayed. Each flight is in charge of an officer, who is responsible for discipline and for keeping the passengers informed.
My noble friend Lord Goschen and the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, expressed solicitude for the travellers in this instance, but I can assure them that they are regarded by the War Office, who have to foot the bill, if any, for the hotel accommodation, simply as delayed air passengers, and we see no reason for less comfortable accommodation to be sought for them than would be enjoyed by other passengers in similar circumstances. I know that that is not what my noble friend was saying. I am very grateful to him for enabling me to give this explanation, and I hope that, in return, I have been able to set his mind at rest.
THE EARL OF GOSFORD: My Lords, before my noble friend sits down, may I ask him two very quick questions? The actual payment of the hotel bill is done by the contracting firm. Does that mean that in fact there is no cost to the public purse over and above the contract already entered into? The second question is: As they have to go all the way up to Hendon from Gatwick, which is quite a day's march in itself, would it not be easier, if the accommodation is still available, to send them either to the

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R.A.F. station at Biggin Hill, or to Kenley?
LORD ST. OSWALD: My Lords, the second of those two questions is rather outside the scope or the intention, I think, of my noble friend's original Question. I will, of course, find out the information and let my noble friend have it. In regard to his other question, I am sorry that I did not make it plainer, but when an aircraft is delayed as a result of weather, or any other factor outside the control of the air carrier, then the payment for accommodation is made from the public purse, as my noble friend put it.
LORD HAWKE: My Lords, if troops are going to be moved to a place other than Hendon, will my noble friend remember that they would probably be much happier at Brighton than at the Air Force centre at Biggin Hill?

AUSTRALIAN AGRICULTURAL COMPANY BILL
  ST. PAUL, COVENT GARDEN,BILL
    WHITEHAVEN HARBOUR BILL
    Brought from the Commons; read 1a, and referred to the Examiners.
  TOXIC CHEMICALS IN AGRICULTURE
  TOXIC CHEMICALS IN AGRICULTURE
  FOREIGN AIRLINES' HOLIDAY FARES
  FOREIGN AIRLINES' HOLIDAY FARES