Sitting of 6 June 1962

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  SCOTLAND

    Further Education (Building Programme)
    Mr. Hector Hughesasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will make a statement giving details with dates and figures of the Scottish Further Education Building Programme with special reference to the needs of commercial education in Aberdeen.
    The Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. R. Brooman-White): As the full
    programme is very long and detailed I have sent the hon. and learned Member a copy. It shows that Aberdeen education authority proposes to start building a new commercial college early next year which is designed to meet fully the needs of Aberdeen and neighbourhood for commercial education.
    Mr. Hughes: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that Answer. Is he aware that at present Messrs. Richards Ltd. and other big firms are engaged in take-over operations and amalgamations which make the kind of education specified in the Question of particular importance to these firms and to Aberdeen, not only now but in future, especially if Britain enters the Common Market? Will he say what special steps he is taking to

    FISH LANDED BY BRITISH VESSELS AT CERTAIN SCOTTISH *PORTS DURING THE PERIODS OCTOBER TO MARCH, 1956–57–1961–62

    —

    Herring

    White Fish

    Shell Fish

    Cwt.

    £

    Cwt.

    £

    £

    1961–62

    …

    …

    …

    16,550

    25,613

    1,096,423

    4,099,256

    102,720

    1960–61

    …

    …

    …

    5,934

    8,292

    1,064,965

    4,139,313

    82,011

    1959–60

    …

    …

    …

    67,335

    58,574

    1,041,080

    4,252,648

    82,959

    1958–59

    …

    …

    …

    25,116

    24,859

    1,316,930

    3,822,770

    74,917

    1957–58

    …

    …

    …

    27,761

    26,769

    1,286,644

    4,207,570

    45,422

    1956–57

    …

    …

    …

    129,876

    108,227

    1,138,050

    3,637,938

    54,539

    *These figures relate to landings made at ports in the fishery districts of Aberdeen, Peterhead, Fraserburgh, Macduff, Buckie, Lossiemouth and Wick. They include landings by British vessels from other ports and exclude landings made at other ports by vessels from these ports.

    provide Aberdeen with that kind of commercial education in those circumstances?
    Mr. Brooman-White: The primary responsibility for assessing the needs of the area rests with the education authority, but I can assure the hon. and learned Member that Her Majesty's inspectors have been co-operating closely with the education authority in deciding what accommodation will be required.

    North-East Scotland Fishing Ports (Landings)
    Mr. Hector Hughesasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will give figures showing the results of fishing, giving herrings separately, by north-east Scotland fishing fleets during the last six months and how these figures compare with the corresponding figures during each of the last five years.
    The Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Gilmour Leburn): I regret that the information is not available precisely in the form asked for by the hon. and learned Member. With permission, however, I shall circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT statistics of the fish landed by British vessels during the relevant periods at the fishing ports of North-East Scotland.
    Mr. Hughes: As the information is not immediately forthcoming, in the information which he is about to circulate, will the Minister indicate the effects of the competition, sometimes very violent, of Continental fishing fleets upon the operations of the Scottish fleets in the North Sea, with a view to protecting not only Scottish fishermen and trawler owners, but the food of Britain?
    Mr. Leburn: It would be very difficult to give that information because it would not be available.
    Following is the statement:

    Forth Road Bridge-Cramond Brig Road
    Mr. Stodartasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what percentage of the cost of maintaining the road from the Forth Road Bridge to Cramond Brig, on the city boundary of Edinburgh, will be borne by his Department; and what percentage his Department will contribute towards maintaining the same road from the city boundary into Edinburgh.
    Mr. Brooman-White: In terms of the Forth Bridge Orders the road from the Bridge to the city boundary at Cramond Brig will be a Class I road on which West Lothian County Council will receive 75 per cent. grant on all approved expenditure.
    Grant on the maintenance of the road within the City of Edinburgh is precluded by the Local Government (Scotland) Act, 1929.
    Mr. Stodart: Does not my hon. Friend appreciate that there is considerable injustice in this case because conditions have completely changed since 1929? Does he realise that the ratepayers of the City of Edinburgh are to be saddled with a burden of some £500,000 of the cost of this trunk road into Edinburgh, which will be used by heavy traffic because there is no way round and because the Government are not providing any means to by-pass the city? Will he move forward and stop thinking about 1929?
    Mr. Brooman-White: I realise that the burghs are dissatisfied with the arrangements which were made in 1929 for the maintenance of classified roads, but any part of the new work on this road which might rate as a major improvement could be submitted to the Scottish Development Department for consideration for grant.

    Glasgow Overspill
    Mr. Mclnnesasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will indicate the total number of families who have been exported from Glasgow since January, 1958, under overspill agreements; and if he will indicate the number of firms who have moved from Glasgow into overspill reception areas since January 1958.
    The Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. T. G. D. Galbraith): Between 1st January, 1958, and 31st March, 1962, 4,781 families and 33 firms moved from Glasgow into overspill receiving areas. In addition, 12 other Glasgow firms set up extensions in these areas.
    Mr. Mclnnes: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that at the present rate of progress which these figures reveal it will take 25 years to solve the tremendous problem of Glasgow's overspill? What is he to do to accelerate matters, as the position is extremely serious?
    Mr. Galbraith: I agree with the hon. Member's arithmetic, but we expect that the number of houses being built will increase. Over the last three years, the average has been about 1,500, but this year we expect it to be 2,000. With the new towns, particularly Cumbernauld and the fourth new town, to say nothing of the industrial developments of Rootes and B.M.C., we expect that the number of houses will increase considerably.
    Miss Herbison: But by this time far more houses should have been provided for Glasgow's overspill in the new towns and overspill areas. Does not the hon. Gentleman appreciate that his Department must do something urgently to try to give even a little help in dealing with this great curse of Glasgow's housing position?
    Mr. Galbraith: What is wanted is to create the right economic climate of growth, and I think that the industrial developments which I have mentioned are doing just that.

    Licensed Betting Offices, Glasgow
    Mr. Mclnnesasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will indicate the total number of licensed betting offices in the City of Glasgow.
    Mr. Brooman-White: I am informed that, as at 1st June, 1962, 444 betting office licences had been granted in Glasgow. The number of betting offices actually in operation is slightly less.
    Mr. Mclnnes: I am afraid that the hon. Gentleman has his figures all wrong. Is he aware that a statement which he issued shows that Glasgow has 365 betting offices and that that number far exceeds the number in Birmingham and

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    Liverpool put together? Will he take steps to see that no more licences are granted, otherwise internecine war will develop between rival bookmakers?
    Mr. Brooman-White: This is an appropriate day to discuss this question. As for the figures, my information is that last year 407 betting licences were granted and now there are 444 licences. The question of how many licences should be granted is, of course, a matter for the local licensing authority.
    Mr. Mclnnes: In view of the situation in Glasgow and the fact that already warfare has broken out between rival gangs of bookmakers, may I ask the hon. Gentleman whether he would advise the local authority to take steps to issue no more licences?
    Mr. Brooman-White: The licensing court will no doubt take notice of what has been said in these exchanges.

    Forestry (Thinnings)
    Mr. Manuelasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what is the estimated tonnage and price which will be secured from thinnings from Government-owned afforestation schemes for the years, 1962, 1963 and 1964.
    Mr. Leburn: The Forestry Commission estimates that the total production of thinnings from its forests in the three years 1962 to 1964 will be about 60 million cubic feet. With permission, I shall circulate the detailed estimates in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    It is not possible to estimate closely what prices will be obtained in future, but in 1961 the Commission received £950,000 for 12½ million cubic feet of timber sold standing, which consisted mainly of thinnings.
    Mr. Manuel: While I am grateful for the information which the hon. Gentleman has given us, may I ask whether he can tell the House what losses, if any, there are in inaccessible areas where there is difficulty in getting thinnings out of the forests, where there are transport difficulties, particularly in the north of Scotland, and difficulty in selling the thinnings?
    Mr. Leburn: I think that the hon. Member will realise that the main object of thinnings is to improve the final crop
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    but, in reply to his specific question, occasionally there are thinnings which cannot be got out of the wood.. Even if they were got out they would not be sold because to try to sell them is uneconomical, but the quantity is not substantial.
    Mr. Brewis: Does my hon. Friend agree that the new factory at Fort William will be a great step forward in dealing with these thinnings but that far more outlets are needed for them, particularly in south-west Scotland?
    Mr. Leburn: I agree with my hon. Friend. At the same time, I am sure that he will realise that there are occasions when it is not economic to bring thinnings out of the wood.
    Mr. Manuel: The hon. Gentleman said that these thinnings were possibly not an economic proposition because the main purpose was to bring the trees to maturity. Will not the hon. Gentleman recognise that as the forests get older the thinnings become more valuable and that is a continuing process over three-year periods? Will he not agree, therefore, that a great deal of efficiency must be lost through thinnings not being sold in the more inaccessible areas?
    Mr. Leburn: I do not agree. The point is that as the timber gets larger it will be possible to find a market for it.
    Following are the details of the total of 60 million cubic feet referred to in the reply:

    ESTIMATED PRODUCTION OF THINNINGS FROM FORESTRY COMMISSION FORESTS IN MILLIONS OF CUBIC FEET (HOPPUS MEASURE)

    —

    1962

    1963

    1964

    Total 1962–1964

    England

    …

    7·0

    8·0

    8·0

    23·0

    Scotland

    …

    7·0

    7·0

    8·0

    22·0

    Wales

    …

    4·0

    5·0

    5·0

    14·0

    Great Britain

    …

    18·0

    20·0

    21·0

    59·0

    Freshwater Fisheries (Pike)
    Mr. Manuelasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what help can be obtained from the freshwater fisheries

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    laboratory at Pitlochry by angling clubs who want to remove pike and other predatory fish from their club waters.
    Mr. Leburn: The Freshwater Fisheries Laboratory gives advice to people interested in the removal of pike and other predators from their waters. In doing so the scientists suggest the most suitable method which might be employed for the waters involved and draw attention to any precautions which ought to be taken.
    Mr. Manuel: May I take it from what the hon. Gentleman has said that angling clubs in Scotland will have advice readily available to them from the laboratory at Pitlochry? Is any field work done on request from angling clubs? Does someone visit these areas to give advice and to examine the problem in rivers and lochs of getting rid of predatory fish? Is it not possible that some constituents could obtain the same advice to get rid of some of the predatory nominees they have in this House?
    Mr. Leburn: The members of the staff of the laboratory are always willing to visit any angling club or any river or loch to give advice. In addition, clubs can visit the laboratory on open days, and so on. The staff are always very willing to give all the help they can.

    Local Government (Finance)
    Mr. W. Hamiltonasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he is aware of the growing concern about the present methods of financing local government; and what proposals he has for relief of hardship by a reform of the existing system.
    Mr. Galbraith: While I cannot accept the hon. Member's reference to hardship I am aware of the continuing interest in this subject. But only a few years have elapsed since the present system was examined in great detail and I do not think the time is ripe for a further overhaul.
    Mr. Hamilton: Has the hon. Gentleman read the Answer given in the House by his English counterpart to the effect that a committee has been set up and that a White Paper will be issued in consequence, as a result of representations from all sides of the House about the
    444
    injustice of the present system? Does the hon. Gentleman now imply in his Answer that what will happen in England will not happen in Scotland and therefore the injustice which is rightly charged against the present system will continue in Scotland whilst it is being remedied in England?
    Mr. Galbraith: Naturally we keep in touch with our colleagues south of the Border. I do not think that my hon. Friend, in speaking for the Government, actually referred to a White Paper; he referred to a document. But, as the hon. Member will know, a separate review of the existing grant arrangements is at present taking place in Scotland and we had better wait to see what comes out of that.

    Industrial Trainees (Day Release)
    Mr. W. Hamiltonasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he is yet in a position to make a statement concerning compulsory day release for trainees in industry.
    Mr. Brooman-White: The position is as given in my right hon. Friend's Answer to the hon. Member for Coatbridge and Airdrie (Mr. Dempsey) on 7th May.
    Mr. Hamilton: Can the hon. Gentleman say when we shall have a firm decision in this matter in view of the recommendation on it of the Toothill Report on Scottish Economy? The matter is extremely urgent despite the fact that we have had some improvement in figures in recent times.
    Mr. Brooman-White: We all appreciate the importance of this problem. The hon. Member will realise that we had the first part of the Oakley Report in the middle of April. We are awaiting further comments on that. It has been referred to the various interested bodies, and I do not think that I should comment on the wider issues until we receive the second part of the Report.
    Miss Herbison: The hon. Gentleman is aware that, apart from the Toothill Committee's recommendations, there are many bodies in Scotland which feel that a decision on this matter should be taken immediately. Is he aware that not only should we provide training for

    445
    these young people so that our industries and production can be improved but that these are the very young people who finish full-time education at 15 years of age? In other words, they represent over 70 per cent. of the young people of Scotland? Should not the Government, for this reason alone, be doing something urgently on this matter?
    Mr. Brooman-White: I do not think that we ought to anticipate what will be said on this by the Committee which, to give its full title, is the Development of Day Release Committee of the Scottish Technical Education Consultative Council. It has been asked to go into the question and it is doing so.

    Loch Ness (Saline Content)
    Mr. Rankinasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether, in connection with his responsibilities for fishery research, he will promote research to test the salinity content of the waters of Loch Ness below 400 feet.
    Mr. Leburn: No, Sir; while the salinity of the waters of Loch Ness below 400 feet may be of general scientific interest, my right hon. Friend is advised that such a test is unlikely to have any bearing on the fisheries problems to which the research of his Department is directed.
    Mr. Rankin: Is not the hon. Gentleman aware that the movements of certain mysterious creatures are associated with the salinity of the waters in which they live? Is he not further aware that the presence of these creatures has been reported in Loch Morar and Loch Shiel? If he undertakes the research for which I am asking, it will help to establish the credibility or otherwise of their presence, and, if proved, would add greatly to the tourist attractions in Scotland and help provide employment.
    Mr. Leburn: I am fascinated by this discussion, but I do not think that it has a great deal to do with fishery research.
    Mr. Rankin: On a point of order. Mr. Speaker, may I have your guidance on this? Is it in order for the hon. Gentleman to come to a conclusion which can be warranted only by research which he is refusing to undertake?
    Mr. Speaker: There is no resemblance to a point of order in that.

    Local Authority Three-Apartment Houses (Cost)
    Mr. Lawsonasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what is now the average cost of a local authority three-apartment house; what would be the annual cost of such a house if payments are spread over the customary 60 years' period; and how this compares with what the annual cost would be if payments were made on a 20-year purchase basis.
    Mr. Galbraith: The estimated average total cost of a typical local authority three-apartment house is £2,070. For such a house the annual loan charges in the case of local authorities borrowing at the current Public Works Loan Board rate of 6½ per cent. would be £142 7s. 6d. over 60 years and £190 2s. 6d. over 20 years.
    Mr. Lawson: Does not the hon. Gentleman think that it is about time we found some much more reasonable way of overcoming this perpetual piling up of the debt problem that is facing us in Scotland? Cannot we find a way to finance the houses which we so badly need without having to face this continuing problem of ever-increasing debt? Would not it be more reasonable to cut it down to 20 years instead of 60 years?
    Mr. Galbraith: It is open to the local authority concerned to do it over 20 years if it wants to. There is nothing to stop a local authority from doing that, but most of them prefer to do it over 60 years.
    Mr. Mclnnes: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the high rate of interest imposed by this Government is the greatest problem which confronts local authorities in the matter of housing?
    Mr. Galbraith: I have crossed swords with the hon. Gentleman on this point many times, and I simply do not agree with him.
    Miss Herbison: Surely the Minister does not mean what he has just said? If he does, then he is the only person, not only in Scotland but in Britain, who has not realised over a long period that local authorities are finding this interest burden very heavy indeed in their

    447
    attempt to provide houses. It would be a good thing if the hon. Gentleman learnt the facts of life.
    Mr. Galbraith: I think that I could say the same of the hon. Lady. I go about the country quite a lot. I visit various towns which have housing difficulties, and I take care to ask whether this is the problem, and in nine cases out of ten I am told that it is not.

    Teachers, Lanarkshire
    Mr. Lawsonasked the Secretary of State for Scotland how the number of teachers employed at present by the Lanarkshire Education Authority, whose qualifications are classified as seriously below standard, compares with the number employed in October, 1961.
    Mr. Brooman-White: Detailed information about individual uncertificated teachers is, obtained from education authorities once a year and the latest figures I have relate to October, 1961. I have however asked Lanarkshire education authority whether it can provide current figures without undue difficulty and I shall write to the hon. Member.
    Mr. Lawson: Does not the hon. Gentleman agree that it is a disturbing thought that so many of our children in Scotland are at present being taught by teachers who are officially classified as seriously below standard? Does not the hon. Gentleman think that it might be better not to employ such teachers at all and not to send the children to school, rather than that they should be taught by teachers who may be doing them considerable harm? Will the Minister look into the whole question of getting rid of these teachers even if it means that the children will have to attend classes for only half the day?
    Mr. Brooman-White: We appreciate that this is a serious problem, but on the point raised by the hon. Gentleman I think that this is a question for the judgment of individual head teachers. They must decide this question in the light of the circumstances in their schools and their knowledge of the performance of the teachers concerned.

    Potatoes and Meat
    Mr. G. M. Thomsonasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what
    448
    steps he is taking to ensure adequate supplies of potatoes and meat at reasonable prices.
    Mr. Leburn: The current shortage and high prices of potatoes are due to the lateness of the new crop and the general shortage of supplies from last year's main crop throughout Europe. The situation should improve considerably by the end of June. Adequate supplies of meat are available; so far as prices are concerned, I would refer the hon. Member to the replies given by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food on 28th May and 4th June to the hon. Members for Goole (Mr. Jeger) and Erith and Crayford (Mr. Dodds) respectively.
    Mr. Thomson: Is the Minister aware that the Answers of the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food on those occasions were as unsatisfactory as his own? Is he aware that the prices of groceries, potatoes and meat have risen in Scotland by as much as 4s. in the £ over the last nine months? Is he aware that the Scottish housewives are fed up to the teeth with the Government, whose only contribution to the cost of living appears to be to aggravate it by putting up house rents?
    Mr. Leburn: I consider that I have dealt adequately with the question of potatoes, and in regard to meat I cannot add to what has been said by my right hon. Friend.
    Sir J. Duncan: When the hon. Gentleman considers prices in Scotland, will he compare them with the prices in Russia, which have recently been announced by Mr. Khrushchev?
    Mr. Strachey: Has the Minister received any representations from the Dundee Housewives' Association on this matter?
    Mr. Leburn: No, Sir.

    Land Tenure
    Mr. G. M. Thomsonasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will set up a committee to investigate the law relating to feu-duty in Scotland.
    Mr. Brooman-White: My right hon. Friend does not think that he would be justified at present in setting up an

    449
    inquiry into the system of land tenure in Scotland.
    Mr. Thomson: Is the Minister aware that with increasing house ownership there is growing irritation with this quite mediaeval imposition? Does not the hon. Gentleman think that it is about time we looked again into this question to see whether owner-occupiers can enjoy the same rights as those in England to purchase the freehold of their houses if they wish to?
    Mr. Brooman-White: We have not, to date, been made aware of any widespread demand for this. It is an extremely complicated problem, and the individual charges are in most cases fairly small.

  ROYAL AIR FORCE

    United States Air Force Base, Greenham Common (Demonstration)
    Mr. Martenasked the Secretary of State for Air what steps he proposes to take to deal with the demonstration of nuclear disarmers arranged to be held at the United States Air Force Base at Greenham Common, near Newbury, on 23rd June.
    The Secretary of State for Air (Mr. Julian Amery): It would not be prudent to reveal our plans in advance.
    Mr. Marten: Does my right hon. Friend realise that the cost to the public of these nuclear disarmament demonstrations since December, 1961, has been well over £30,000? Will he therefore please undertake to give maximum publicity to the cost to the public which will be incurred as a result of this demonstration?
    Mr. Amery: I undertake not only to do that, but to point out to the public the extremely unsatisfactory situation which the C.N.D. bodies impose on us by obliging airmen to undertake police duties.

    Jet Fighter Squadron (Cost)
    Mr. Emrys Hughesasked the Secretary of State for Air what is now the cost of a squadron of jet fighters of the type now stationed in Thailand.
    Mr. Amery: The annual running cost is about £600,000.
    Mr. Hughes: Are the rulers of Thailand going to pay the Government for this, or is the cost to be met by British taxpayers?
    Mr. Amery: Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will put down a Question about that.
    Sir A. V. Harvey: Is it not a fact that £600,000 would have to be spent in any case on the squadron even if it were in Singapore or Malaya?
    Mr. Amery: A large proportion of it, certainly.

    Officers (Marriage)
    Mr. Wainwrightasked the Secretary of State for Air if he will now reduce the qualifying age of married officers to 23 years to enable wives and children to be allowed travelling expenses if they decide to be with them for the whole period of their service abroad.
    Mr. Amery: I believe, on balance, that the present policy, which is common to all three Services, is sound.
    Mr. Wainwright: Is there no spark of conciliation in the mind of the right hon. Gentleman? Is he aware that young officers over 25 are disgusted with this age limit being left at 25 in cases of this kind? If a young officer can be put in charge of a machine which costs £1½ million, surely he is entitled to have his wife and children with him? If the right hon. Gentleman is not willing to agree to the age of 23, may I suggest that he ought to consult all the air squadrons throughout the country and make certain that he gets their opinions before making any further decisions?
    Mr. Amery: I give consideration to any question which the hon. Gentleman asks me. I have discussed this with a number of station officers of every rank, and I have found that there is a pretty strong feeling that our policy is right, and that in the first years of an officer's engagement it is a good thing for him to join as much as possible in the collective life of the station.
    Mr. Dugdale: Does not the Minister think it wrong that an officer who can

    451
    be in charge of a machine cannot be in charge of a wife?
    Mr. Amery: I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will be prepared to defend in the country the view that the machine has priority over the wife.
    Mr. Mulley: I should like the Secretary of State to give some serious attention to this matter, which, I suggest, is not one for levity. May I ask whether, in fact, he has looked at this matter in the light of the modern trend for people to get married very much earlier than hitherto, and will he consider whether, in the long run, this rigidity of his rules is likely to harm recruiting?
    Mr. Amery: We have considered this from various points of view, and, by comparison with earlier standards, I believe we have very much brought down the age limit.

    University Air Squadrons
    Mr. Ridsdaleasked the Secretary of State for Air if he will make a statement on the contribution made to the Royal Air Force during the past year by the university air squadrons.
    Mr. Amery: In 1961, 62 former members of university air squadrons joined the Royal Air Force, 50 of them as aircrew. It is to the university air squadrons and to Cranwell that we look to provide the majority of officers destined for high command.
    Mr. Ridsdale: Would my right hon. Friend say whether or not entrants from the universities are more eonomically trained than those from other sources?
    Mr. Amery: Yes, Sir. Indeed, ex-members of university air squadrons, because of their early flying training, are very much cheaper to train, and there is a much smaller wastage among them.

    Historical Display, Upavon
    Mr. Collardasked the Secretary of State for Air if he will give an assurance that everything possible will be done to enable the maximum number of the general public to see the historical display at Upavon on Saturday, 16th June next.
    Mr. Amery: Yes, Sir. Plans have been made to accommodate up to 50,000 members of the general public and car parking, and other facilities, including refreshments, will be available. The display—which I believe will be a notable one—has been advertised in the national and provincial Press and posters are being distributed. We are receiving the ready co-operation of the local police, the motoring organisations and public transport undertakings.
    Mr. Collard: Will my right hon. Friend also do everything he can to encourage the attendance on this occasion of former members of the Royal Flying Corps and Royal Naval Air Service at this unique and remarkable display? May I express the hope that it will be supported by the general public, as indeed it deserves to be?
    Mr. Amery: Yes, Sir. Invitations to attend the display have gone to all ex-members of the Royal Flying Corps and the Royal Naval Air Service whose addresses we have been able to trace. Any ex-members whose present addresses have eluded us, who, having seen our announcement, or as the result of my hon. Friend's Question, get in touch with us, will also receive invitations.

    Medical and Dental Officers
    Mr. Edenasked the Secretary of State for Air what response there has been to the recent announcements of improvements in pay and conditions for Service medical and dental officers.
    Mr. Amery: The response has been distinctly encouraging. Several hundred inquiries have been received in the five weeks since the new rates of pay and conditions of service were announced.
    Mr. Eden: While welcoming the encouraging indication which my right hon. Friend (has given in his reply, may I ask whether he can confirm that there is still a great shortage? Can he give any indication that the numbers actually being taken on now confirm the improvement which he has announced?
    Mr. Amery: Yes, Sir. There is still a serious shortage, but the results are encouraging. We have had 650 inquiries

    453
    and over 60 firm applications, as compared with 12 inquiries and two applications in the same period of last year.
    Mr. Lipton: Does not this indicate that the very substantial pay jump which has been offered to doctors joining the Service has proved a substantial attraction, and is 'there not a danger now that quite a number of doctors will be tempted out of the National Health Service and thus creating a shortage there as well?
    Mr. Amery: The hon. Member may like to put a Question to my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health. We have a very serious shortage, but this is a step towards removing it which I think the whole House will welcome.
    Sir G. Nicholson: Can my right hon. Friend indicate his own attitude and that of his Department towards the proposals that are now very much in the air to amalgamate the medical services of the three fighting Services?
    Mr. Amery: Perhaps my hon. Friend will put down a Question about that. It is rather a separate matter.

    Recruiting
    Mr. Edenasked the Secretary of State for Air What steps are being taken to bring the opportunities offered by the Royal Air Force to the notice of headmasters and others who are in a position to influence young men in their choice of career.
    Mr. Amery: Part of our advertising campaign is addressed specifically to headmasters and patents. We also arrange visits to Royal Air Force stations at home and overseas for headmasters and careers masters. Our schools liaison officers visit schools to explain about careers in the Service and also keep in close touch with such bodies as University Appointments Boards and the Youth Employment Service.
    Last October we also held a study conference on the aircrew recruiting problem which was attended by a number of distinguished persons with experience in education and youth work.
    Mr. Eden: Can my right hon. Friend give any figures to indicate the results which have so far been achieved in this direction, and also say to what extent
    454
    these young Service men, having been trained by the R.A.F. leave it and go to civilian occupations, after an expensive training?
    Mr. Amery: Of course, it is terribly difficult to assess exactly the number of recruits we get from any particular recruiting activity, but our overall recruiting position is satisfactory. As I think my hon. Friend knows, the recruitment of aircrew has shown a dramatic improvement over the last 12 months. Wastage at the moment does not give us any cause for concern.
    Mr. Dugdale: Are these young men told, when they reach commissioned rank, that they will have to remain monks until they are 25?
    Mr. Amery: It is in the regulations.

    Air Training Corps and Air Cadets
    Mr. K. Lewisasked the Secretary of State for Air if he will make a statement on the contribution made by the air cadet force to the Royal Air Force during the past year.
    Mr. Amery: The Air Training Corps and Royal Air Force sections of the Combined Cadet Force continue to provide a high proportion of recruits of good quality to the Royal Air Force.
    During the year ended 31st March, 1962, they provided over 40 per cent. of our officer cadets, about 40 per cent. of our boy entrants and apprentices and 10 per cent. of our ground airmen.
    Mr. Lewis: Is the Minister aware that I am very glad to have this encouraging report? Will he ensure that there are the fullest possible facilities for these cadets to visit R.A.F. stations in the country?
    Mr. Amery: Yes, Sir. Co-operation with the Royal Air Force is close and cordial, especially at the annual camps on R.A.F. stations, which were attended last year by over 22,000 cadets.

    Air-Sea Rescue Service
    Mr. P. Browneasked the Secretary of State for Air how many bathers and yachtsmen, who have got themselves into difficulties off the coasts of Great Britain, have been rescued by the Royal Air Force in the past 12 months.
    Mr. Amery: Sixty in the year ending 30th April, 1962.
    Mr. Browne: These are impressive figures. Is my right hon. Friend aware of the extreme value of this service, and may I, in particular, congratulate the helicopter base at Chivenor, which covers the western end of my constituency, on the work it does in this way? Will he assure the House that this type of air-sea rescue work of bathers who get into difficulties on our coasts will continue?
    Mr. Amery: We will certainly do our best to continue it, although my hon. Friend will realise that the main purpose of the helicopter air-sea rescue service is to rescue aircrew, and it is only where they happen to be stationed in areas where bathers and others get into trouble that they are able to help them. The primary purpose of the service is a military one.
    Mr. Kershaw: Do any of the seaside resorts which benefit greatly from visitors make any contribution to the cost of this service?
    Mr. Amery: No, Sir; not financially.
    Mr. P. Williams: While I recognise the value of the service, may I ask my right hon. Friend what the rough cost of it is?
    Mr. Amery: I cannot say offhand. It is quite expensive, but we would incur this expense in any case, because of the question of rescuing aircrew whose aircraft may come down over the sea.
    Mr. Milne: Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind the saving of life? It is not primarily a question of cost. Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that many of the lifeguard corps and the voluntary life-saving people on the coasts around Britain are very grateful indeed for the assistance they receive on occasions like this?
    Mr. Amery: We are very well aware of that, and I am sure that the hon. Member will bear that in mind when voting for next year's Air Estimates.

    Comet 4 Aircraft
    Mr. van Straubenzeeasked the Secretary of State for Air Whether the Royal Air Force Transport Command
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    has yet received the five Comet 4s ordered for the Royal Air Force strategic
    routes.
    Mr. Amery: Yes, Sir.
    Mr. van Straubenzee: Can my right hon. Friend add to that Answer by telling us when he expects the aircraft to be operating on strategic routes?
    Mr. Amery: The aircraft are already flying on the strategic routes in the training rôle. Indeed, I am hoping to leave on one of them tonight. They will be in regular Service use in August.

  ROADS

    Easter Holiday Period (Speed Limit)
    Mr. Hileyasked the Minister of Transport, in view of the record number of vehicles on the roads during the Easter holiday period, if he will impose at Easter in future the 50 m.p.h. speed limit.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport (Mr. John Hay):
    The extent to which we will use the 50 m.p.h. speed limit in future years will depend on the outcome of this summer's further trial. I cannot, therefore, say at present whether it will be imposed at Easter in future or, for that matter, at any other time.
    Mr. Hiley: Is my hon. Friend aware that in view of the considerable increase in traffic last Easter those who are concerned with the problem of road safety feel that a definite decision should be made? I want him to understand that these people very much hope that this limit will be imposed next Easter.
    Mr. Hay: I take note of what my hon. Friend says, but I must point out that this advice which he gives us is not entirely endorsed by many other responsible bodies.
    Mr. John Hall: May I ask my hon. Friend if there is any evidence that the imposition of this speed limit has resulted in a reduction of accidents?
    Mr. Hay: Yes, there is some evidence, but not conclusive evidence, and that is why we are having a further experiment this summer.
    Mr. Manuel: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that certain chief constables have been very outspoken in saying they feel they must have power to impose, on certain stretches where accident rates are high, specially severe precautions in laying down a speed limit of 50 m.p.h., instead of leaving it to the motorist who wants to get from one place to another as quickly as possible to go at any speed?
    Mr. Hay: The Road Traffic Bill at present going through this House contains a number of provisions relating to speed limits. Perhaps the hon. Member will study the Bill, when I think he will be a little better instructed.

    Highway and Traffic Engineers
    Mr. Clive Bossomasked the Minister of Transport if he is satisfied that the supply of highway and traffic engineers is adequate to meet the needs of the increasing number of vehicles on the roads and the expanding road programme; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Hay: The supply will depend to some extent on the opportunities available. We are discussing with the local authority associations the need for encouraging local authorities to employ additional engineers, particularly on traffic engineering. We are satisfied that the universities and colleges of technology can meet the demand.
    Mr. Bossom: While thanking my hon. Friend for that Answer, may I ask him if he does not agree that the recruiting of these highly-trained personnel is going far too slowly? At this stage we should have several thousand. In fact we have only a few hundred. Can my hon. Friend say how many at present are employed by local government authorities?
    Mr. Hay: Not without notice. I could not give any figure. The major shortcoming in this field is still that some local authorities have not yet appreciated the need to engage traffic engineers on their staffs to tackle this problem of traffic congestion. We are considering means of stimulating demand, and are writing to the local authority associations asking them to participate in discussions on this matter
    Mr. Holt: How does the hon. Gentleman know how many people are required for this expanding programme? I asked a Question the other day, asking about the size of the expanding programme over the next five years, and the Ministry apparently was unable to give figures.
    Mr. Hay: We have a good deal of information at our disposal in the Ministry of Transport.

    Yorkshire Motorway
    Mr. A. Robertsasked the Minister of Transport if construction of the Yorkshire motorway between Leeds and Sheffield will begin in the year 1963.
    Mr. Hay: No, Sir. A start next year is not practicable. The work will be put in hand as soon as the statutory processes and the considerable engineering preparation are complete and funds are available.
    Mr. Roberts: Can the hon. Gentleman give any idea when the work is likely to start or when the preparatory work will be completed?
    Mr. Hay: No. I cannot, simply because we have found by bitter experience that the statutory processes often involve us in very considerable delay. If I were to forecast the date for the start I might well be confounded by events.
    Mr. Strauss: Why does the hon. Gentleman make it a condition that funds must be available? Surely now that he has a long-term programme for road development and new roads he should know what amount is to be available for this purpose over the next few years?
    Mr. Hay: Yes, but this scheme is not included in any of the long-term programmes. We hope that it will be included in a programme in the fairly near future, but I cannot say at this stage.
    Sir B. Janner: Will the hon. Gentleman say why on earth he does not get on with his job? Is he really not aware of the fact that preparations for this have been going on for many years? Has he any idea of what kind of contracts will be required? Does he

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    realise that he has lost many opportunities for getting this road proceeded with, because the facilities have been available? Why does he not put his mind to having something done quickly, since a vast amount of expenditure is being lost which could be saved—millions of pounds? He has himself declared it.
    Mr. Hay: The hon. Member always over-simplifies these matters. The fact is that the draft scheme for this particular piece of motorway was published in June of last year; the objection period expired on 9th September last; we had no fewer than 46 objections, many of them complaining about the demolition of over 200 properties; and all these have got to be properly considered before we can go ahead. I do not think it is unreasonable.

    A.21 Road (Speed Limit)
    Mr. Lubbockasked the Minister of Transport if he will impose a 40 m.p.h. speed limit on the stretch of A.21 between the derestriction sign at Starts Hill and the Green Street Green roundabout.
    Mr. Hay: Traffic conditions on this length of road would not justify a 40 m.p.h. speed limit at the present time.
    Mr. Lubbock: Is the hon. Gentleman really telling me that nothing can be done to alleviate the increase in the rate of accidents on this stretch of road about which he wrote to me yesterday showing that the number of accidents has increased by no less than 25 per cent. in the last nine months?
    Mr. Hay: While the number of accidents has increased very slightly, I am very glad to note that fatalities have been fewer. The accident record is not high for this class of road. It is, after all, a by-pass, and what accidents occur are mainly at junctions. We are consulting the highway authority as to what improvements might be made.
    Mr. P. Williams: Could we have priority given to people joining from the right?

    Disabled Drivers (Parking Meter Charges)
    Mrs. Butlerasked the Minister of Transport if he will take steps to deal
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    with the problems of disabled people with regard to parking meters.
    Mr. Hay: All the parking places orders which my right hon. Friend has made enable local authorities to exempt severely disabled drivers from the payment of parking meter charges and thus from the time limits.
    Disabled drivers who wish to claim exemption should apply to the appropriate council.
    Mrs. Butler: Since many disabled people have great difficulty in obtaining jobs and can keep them only if they use their own cars virtually from door to door, whatever the local authority may say about their claim for exemption, will the Minister draw up a code of guidance to local authorities about these exemptions, bearing in mind the views of the various associations of disabled people?
    Mr. Hay: I shall consider that. I should say that the information I have is that over half of all the applications which are made to local authorities to be treated as disabled drivers are in fact successful, but I will consider the suggestion which has been made.

  TRANSPORT

    Kennet and Avon Canal
    Sir E. Leatherasked the Minister of Transport what are the Bowes Committee's recommendations for the future of the Kennet and Avon Canal.
    Mr. Hay: The Bowes Committee, whose Report was published in July, 1958, considered that the Kennet and Avon Canal was a case for redevelopment. It found no justification for restoring it as a through navigation from Reading to Bath and could not recommend its inclusion in a "prescribed navigable system" of inland waterways.
    Sir E. Leather: While thanking my hon. Friend for that Answer, which does not get us a lot further, may I ask him whether he would confirm that this matter has been looked at again by a committee under Admiral Parham, and will he confirm or deny that that committee has recommended a constructive solution?
    Mr. Hay: I do not think that my hon. Friend ought to attack me for answering the Question which he put on the Paper, but it is perfectly true that the Inland Waterways Redevelopment Advisory Committee has already looked at this and has submitted recommendations to my right hon. Friend, and they are at present being studied.

    Double-Decker Buses (Smoking)
    Mrs Castleasked the Minister of Transport whether he will take steps to prohibit smoking on the lower decks of double-decker buses.
    Mr. Hay: The Government are considering the whole question of smoking in public places, including public service vehicles, in the light of the recent report of the Royal College of Physicians.
    Mrs. Castle: But is it not quite wrong that this decision should be left to the bus operators? Is it not really time that, without any more delay, non-smokers should get at least equal treatment with smokers? If there are two decks in a bus why cannot the non-smokers be given one of them? Why should they sit choking in other people's smoke?
    Mr. Hay: I do not object to what the hon. Lady says, but in practice smoking on the lower decks of double-decker buses is already prohibited by the operators themselves in about 90 per cent. of all double-decker vehicles. All I am saying is that we ought to look at the whole problem of smoking in public places before coming to a unilateral decision on these matters.
    Mr. Shinwell: When is this fanaticism going to stop? What with the Whips and what with standing orders and restrictions of various kinds, we cannot even get a smoke nowadays.
    Mr. Hay: I thought that the right hon. Gentleman was smoking so much these days that he was about to burst into flames.
    Mr. Rankin: The hon. Gentleman said that the Government were considering the whole problem of smoking in public places. Does that include smoking in aircraft, which, at a different level, are in much the same position as single-deck buses?
    Mr. Hay: All I can answer for is double-decker buses.

    Headlights (Use)
    Mr. Cleaverasked the Minister of Transport what action he proposes to take on dipped headlights arising out of the Birmingham report which has been sent to him; and what are his plans for assisting the city council during the next experimental period of six months.
    Mr. Hay: The Road Traffic Bill now before Parliament contains provisions which, if approved, will enable my right hon. Friend to make regulations controlling the use of headlights. In framing any such regulations he will take carefully into account the reports about the recent Birmingham experiment. We shall be glad to give the city council any help we can for any further experiment.
    Mr. Cleaver: Will my right hon. Friend encourage the Road Research Laboratory to take an interest in the next experiment and also ensure that the right information is collected so that his advisers can advise him as to what action he should take as a result of the promising experiments which are taking place?
    Mr. Hay: So far as I am aware, the Road Research Laboratory has taken some interest in the recent Birmingham experiment. I shall try to draw its attention to what my hon. Friend has said about the future experiment.

  RAILWAYS

    Main Line Services and Terminals
    Mr. G. Wilsonasked the Minister of Transport what recent general directions he has given to the British Transport Commission as to the closure of the main line railway services and terminals; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Haymanasked the Minister of Transport what proposals have been submitted to him in connection with the future of the West Region main line railway west of Plymouth.
    Mr. Hay: My right hon. Friend has given no directions to the British Transport Commission about the closure of

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    any main line services or terminals. I understand that the Commission has no plans to close sections of the Western Region main line west of Plymouth.
    Mr. Wilson: Is my hon. Friend aware of persistent rumours that there is about to be a closure at Plymouth? Does his Answer include a categorical denial that there is any foundation for that? Can he give an assurance that, should there be any proposals which would affect main lines, the parties interested would have ample opportunties for consultation before any action was taken?
    Mr. Hay: Yes, Sir. The rumours to which my hon. Friend has referred have been somewhat persistent in the West Country and I am very glad to have the opportunity of denying them. For the future, if in fact any proposals of this kind were made, the Transport Bill at present before Parliament contains a new procedure for dealing with matters of public interest in connection with the withdrawal of services.
    Mr. Hayman: Will the Parliamentary Secretary go further than that and give an absolute assurance that under no circumstances will his right hon. Friend agree to any proposal to close the line west of Plymouth, in this generation at least?
    Mr. Hay: I think that the hon. Member is asking me to commit myself much too far, certainly for this generation.
    Dame Irene Ward: Is this little mouse the answer which my right hon. Friend, as has been freely stated in the Press, is supposed to be giving? Is he aware that these persistent rumours have a very serious effect on property and that it causes great anxiety to masses of people not to know what their future is to be? When are we to have a proper statement, either from my right hon. Friend or from Dr. Beeching, as to exactly what is to be done about our railway services?
    Mr. Hay: I am very glad to have had the opportunity today to deny a particular rumour which has been circulating. As to the second part of my hon. Friend's supplementary question, we have made it clear on a number of occasions that until the traffic studies which Dr. Beeching is carrying out are completed no final decisions or statements can be expected.
    Mr. Strauss: Would not the most satisfactory statement which the Minister could make be one which suggested that profitability should not be the main or only consideration in closing branch lines, but that public service should also be a factor taken into account?
    Mr. Hay: I think my right hon. Friend might make an even more popular statement—that the deficits of the British Transport Commission had diminished to vanishing point and the load was taken off the taxpayers' shoulders.

    Stafford-Crewe Line (Fatal Accident)
    Mr. Ellis Smithasked the Minister of Transport if he will make a statement on the circumstances that resulted in the three North Staffordshire platelayers being killed on the main Stafford to Crewe railway line on Sunday, 20th May.
    Mr. Hay: Yes, Sir. On Sunday, 20th May, engineering work was in hand on the fast lines between Stafford and Crewe. Five lengthmen were sent from Badnall Wharf to Norton Bridge to fetch lamps, and I regret to say that three of them were killed at Norton Bridge at about 10.15 p.m. It appears they were struck by a diesel train which crossed over the fast lines. An inquiry will be held by our Senior Railway Employment Inspector in the near future.
    Mr. Ellis Smith: Will the Parliamentary Secretary give instructions that his regional representative shall take a special interest in this case so that the young wives and large families concerned may suffer no more than is absolutely necessary?
    Mr. Hay: Of course, we shall treat the matter with the utmost sympathy, but I should make it clear that all these inquiries into railway accidents, whether fatalities are involved or not, are always looked at with the utmost seriousness and with great care.

    Branch Line Closures
    Mr. C. Hughesasked the Minister of Transport what steps he is taking to ensure that when a railway branch line is closed some alternative means of public transport is provided to meet the needs of those affected.
    Mr. Hay: Under the procedure proposed in the Trans-port Bill no railway passenger closure can be effected without the consent of my right hon. Friend. He will have powers to attach conditions to that consent, or to give directions to the Railways Board. These powers can be used to ensure the provision and continuance of alternative bus services in cases where this is justified by the hardship Which would be caused to rail passengers by the closure.
    Mr. Hughes: Is the Minister aware that at present the difficulty is that after branch lines are closed the bus services which take their place are discontinued after a short trial period? Is he giving the House an assurance that the Minister is taking powers, which he proposes to operate, to see that those bus services are continued indefinitely?
    Mr. Hay: Yes, the Bill contains provisions whereby my right hon. Friend can take that action, but I should point out that in a number of cases—one in Wales is under review at the moment— the alternative bus service which has been provided when the rail services have been withdrawn has been so underused that it has become uneconomic and it is unnecessary to provide it.
    Mr. P. Browne: Is my hon. Friend aware that there is a social side to this problem? Can we be quite certain that, in order to avoid further depopulation of the countryside and hardship, these bus services when provided will be kept going?
    Mr. Hay: I cannot add to the Answer I have already given on the matter. I think that my hon. Friend rather oversimplifies the matter. The fact is that the countryside is adequately provided with transport. What is declining is the degree of use of public transport of ail kinds, rail and bus.
    Mr. Marsh: The Parliamentary Secretary is saying that the Minister has powers to do this, but it is obvious that he is not using those powers. Has not the Minister an obligation to ensure that transport facilities in 1962 are certainly not less than they were in earlier years?
    Mr. Hay: No, Sir. That is a quite unjustifiable conclusion to draw.
    Mr. Maxwell-Hyslop: Has my right hon. Friend received any representations from his right hon. Friend the Minister of Health on this subject, so that changes in rural transport facilities shall not be incompatible with alterations proposed in the National Health Service, particularly the hospital facilities?
    Mr. Hay: Not to my knowledge, but perhaps my hon. Friend will put a question about that on the Order Paper.
    Mr. Hughes: In view of the unsatisfactory and confusing nature of the hon. Gentleman's replies, I beg to give notice that I shall raise the matter again.

    Passenger Services, Greater London Area
    Mrs. Butlerasked the Minister of Transport if he will appoint an independent commission to examine passenger rail services in the Greater London area and the possibilities of expansion of these services to relieve the increasing congestion on the roads.
    Mr. Hay: No, Sir. The British Transport Commission has the statutory duty to provide or secure the provision of an adequate and properly co-ordinated system of passenger transport for the London Passenger Transport Area.
    Mrs. Butler: Does not the Minister realise that every branch line which is closed without a real and sustained attempt having been made to bring it up to date and to attract passenger traffic adds to the number of cars and buses snarling up London's roads? Is it not necessary for some independent examination to be made of the whole London traffic problem, and is it not the responsibility of the Minister to do that?
    Mr. Hay: No, I am afraid I cannot agree. I am aware of no recent case of withdrawal of passenger facilities on railway lines in the London Traffic Area. We consider this a matter which primarily should remain where Parliament has placed it, namely, with the London Transport Executive.
    Mr. Lipton: In the light of what the Parliamentary Secretary has just said, may I ask why the Government will not help the British Transport Commission and the London Transport Executive to

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    get on with the new tube from Victoria to Walthamstow, which will do much to relieve road congestion?
    Mr. Hay: That is a much wider question. As I have frequently said, we have not said "No" to that scheme, but we have to leave it until times are a little better.
    Mrs. Butler: Is not the Parliamentary Secretary aware that there are at present proposals for closing a branch line which runs through a number of north London constituencies and that that will have the effect which I mentioned of increasing congestion on the roads?
    Mr. Hay: I was not aware of that, but I shall look into it.

COTTON TEXTILE INDUSTRY
The following Questions stood upon the Order Paper:
Mr. RHODES: To ask the President of the Board of Trade, whether, in view of the state of the cotton industry and the representations recently made to him, he will give an answer to the proposals submitted to him by the deputation led by the honourable Member for Ashton-under-Lyne; and if he will make a statement.
Sir J. BARLOW: TO ask the President of the Board of Trade, whether, in view of the state of the cotton textile industry and the representations which have recently been made to him, he will give an answer to the proposals submitted to him by the deputation led by the hon. Member for Middleton; and if he will make a statement.
The President of the Board of Trade (Mr. F. J. Erroll): With permission, Mr. Speaker, I will now answer Questions Nos. 75 and 76 and make a statement of Government policy concerning imports of cotton textiles and other matters affecting the cotton industry.
As the House may be aware, the Government have received, through the Government of Hong Kong, an offer from the Hong Kong industry to continue up to the end of 1965 the present ceilings on their exports of cotton piece goods and made-ups for retention in this country, and, in addition, to limit yarn exports to the 1961 rate. The limitation
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of yarn exports is a new feature which would come into operation shortly.
The Government are aware that the British industries concerned regard these levels as excessive, and very strong representations have been made by the Cotton Board to secure a reduction.
On the one hand, the Government recognise the serious difficulties which a large volume of imports cause to these industries; on the other hand, the Government are bound to take account of the importance of textile exports to the economies of the Commonwealth countries concerned. They believe that the proposed ceiling is reasonable in all the circumstances and they have decided that the offer should be accepted.
This offer is subject to the acceptance of similar arrangements on the part of India and Pakistan, which I am expecting shortly.
Certain matters remain to be settled and the arrangements would be on the basis of the present system whereby cotton textiles from Commonwealth countries enter Britain duty free. If, as a result of the negotiations in Brussels, there were to be any change in this system, the Governments and industries concerned would naturally reserve their right to reconsider the matter.
The long-term Geneva Arrangement is due to come into operation in October next. The Government intend to accept it for the United Kingdom subject to a reservation exempting us from obligations under the Arrangement to admit increased imports.
These measures will ensure stability over a large part of the market. Supplies from all the major low-cost Asian producers are now regulated either by voluntary means or otherwise. Imports from Japan, Formosa, China and the Eastern bloc countries are under licensing control. This will continue. Imports from Spain are limited by agreement with the Spanish industry. All imports of cotton cloth from foreign countries pay import duty. I am circulating in the OFFICIAL REPORT Tables of figures relating to different areas since 1959.
Cotton textiles is a trade where exports from new sources may grow very rapidly. The Government intend to keep the situation under review and

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are therefore introducing a system of open individual licensing. This involves the withdrawal of the present Open General Licence under which cotton piece goods, certain made-ups and yarn may be freely imported from most sources, but it does not entail new restrictions. A full announcement of the details of the licensing arrangements is being issued today.
It would be unfair to those countries who are voluntarily restricting their supplies to this market if other countries took advantage of such restraint to increase their own sales, Countries with no traditional trade in cotton textiles should not count on being able to build up a new market in Britain.
There is one further matter to which I should refer. The Cotton Industry Act, 1959, allowed three years for the submission of applications for re-equipment grant. This period ends on 8th July. Firms intending to submit applications to the Cotton Board should do so without delay. They will still have another year to place their orders with machinery makers and up to July 1964 to complete installation of the plant.
This statement will enable firms in the industry to judge where they stand and to decide upon their future action. Much special help is being given to the industry, but the industry itself has a great deal to do.
Mr. Rhodes: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that he was blushing when he made the statement? Is he aware that we are not in the least surprised? Is he aware that his announcement will cause bitter disappointment in Lancashire? Is he aware that, if he had accepted the figures I suggested to him of a 1959 ceiling, it would have been more fair, more equitable, more realistic and would have given the Lancashire producers some confidence to go ahead with their re-equipment? If it was necessary in 1959, an election year, to spend millions of £s of public money on the reorganisation of the industry, when the chief imports were running at 418 million square yards, including yarn equivalent, what about the position now when imports are running at 495 million square yards, including yarn equivalent? Does he not agree—[Interruption.] I do not often ask a question in the House,
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but when I do I mean it. Does the right hon. Gentleman agree with the conclusion of the Estimates Committee that, unless the matter is tackled now, the public money which has been spent on the industry will be wasted?
Mr. Erroll: When Lancashire comes to study my statement as a whole and sees that it represents a restriction to the present ceilings in regard to Commonwealth Asian imports and the other features which I have announced, I think it will realise that we are doing a great deal for the industry and it should be able to make real progress in re-organisation as well as in re-equipment.
As regards the 1959 levels as compared with the 1962 levels, there is no for going back to the 1959 levels, as that would make a difference of only about 3 per cent. in the total quantity of cloth consumed in this country. I have naturally taken note of the comments at the end of the Report of the Estimates Committee, and I very much appreciate what the Chairman and the members of the Committee had to say about the administration of the Act by the Board of Trade.
Sir J. Barlow: Is my right hon. Friend aware that, although we appreciate his long-delayed statement, Lancashire will be very disappointed with it? A most important redundancy scheme was promulgated in 1959, and we regard that as being entirely let down and changed. Will my right hon. Friend do his best to arrange for a debate on this important subject as quickly as possible? Is he satisfied that he is taking sufficient powers to deal with dumped imports?
Mr. Erroll: I can only repeat that I do not think that Lancashire will be so disappointed when it has had time to study the statement in full. All important sections of the industry are planning to go ahead with re-equipment, because re-equipment grant applications received up to 1st June exceed a total of £51 million. As regards the antidumping legislation, the system operated under the Act has been explained on several occasions to the industry and I am not aware of any recent complaints about its ineffectiveness. As regards the debate, that is not a matter for me.
Mr. Thornton: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in terms of our

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coal industry these excessively high figures represent an annual import of 65 million tons? Had coal been involved instead of cotton, would the President have dared to come forward with this statement? Is not the Government action typical of what has been done over a wide field of being strong with the weak and weak with the strong?
Mr. Erroll: One of the most important things to remember is that unemployment in the cotton belt of Lancashire is well below the national average.
Mr. S. Silverman: Eight per cent.!
Mr. Erroll: There may have been one or two small local pockets with a higher rate, but I am speaking of the cotton belt as a whole. Therefore, although there have been severe changes in the size of the industry, there has not been great suffering caused by unemployment.
Sir A. V. Harvey: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the ceilings to which he has referred will keep the cotton industry in difficulties? Why cannot he invoke the disruption clause of G.A.T.T.? Why do the Americans and the E.E.C. countries take only half of the 5½ per cent. of their home production, while Britain takes 30 per cent.? If my right hon. Friend thinks that what he has said will satisfy people, he will learn differently tomorrow.
Mr. Erroll: As regards the disruption clause of G.A.T.T., I imagine that my hon. Friend is referring to the short-term G.A.T.T. arrangement which provides for action being taken if imports exceed those of the period for the year ending June, 1961. Since then imports into this country have been at very much lower levels than the base period, and therefore it has not been possible for us to invoke the disruption clause of the G.A.T.T. As regards the practices of other countries in relation to imported cotton goods, there are no restrictions against imports from India, Pakistan and Hong Kong into Benelux or Italy, while West Germany applies quota restrictions to India and Pakistan but not to Hong Kong. Therefore, the practice of other countries is not universally restrictive.
Mr. Mapp: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the real heart of Lancashire was in the House on Monday
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afternoon? They indicated specifically that these possible schedules which the Minister has would sap completely what little confidence is left in Lancashire for re-equipment. Therefore, half the Government legislation dealing with scrap machinery will be wholly disrupted by this most depressing announcement. Will the right hon. Gentleman agree to receive a deputation from the country from all levels of the industry so that they may tell him firmly and candidly what their opinion is of his statement?
Mr. Erroll: I do not think it follows that all the money which has so far been spent on redundancy will prove to have been wasted, because I think that a substantial measure of re-equipment will take place. When the industry has had an opportunity to study my statement and its implications, I shall be very glad to receive a deputation from the Cotton Board.
Mr. Leavey: My right hon. Friend must recognise that with unemployment at the levels which persist at this time, at any rate in my own constituency, this statement cannot be received with anything but bewilderment. If the recent G.A.T.T. agreement at Geneva did not permit Her Majesty's Government to impose effective quantitative restrictions, why did we subscribe to it? It seems that it was possible, hardly before the ink dried upon it, for the Americans to impose a restriction upon Hong Kong textile exports. Why cannot Her Majesty's Government apply effective limits which will at least restore some confidence to Lancashire? I ask my right hon. Friend to recognise that, whatever the national unemployment levels may be, there is today among my constituents widespread unemployment. A large number of them are on short-time and two mills are permanently closing down. I ask my right hon. Friend to take a more realistic and sympathetic view of the present situation in the cotton textile trade.
Mr. Erroll: The countries which export textiles to us have been pressing very strongly for an increase in the ceilings. It is only as a result of my taking a sympathetic view and adhering to it that I have been able to secure the maintenance of the ceilings at the present level only. I have to take into account the

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interests of other countries as well as our own interests. As regards the G.A.T.T. arrangement, in answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Macclesfield (Sir A. V. Harvey), I was referring to the short-term arrangements. May I remind my hon. Friend the Member for Heywood and Royton (Mr. Leavey) of the long-term arrangement which comes into operation in September of this year, in which I think that he will find the arrangements are more satisfactory.
Mr. Darling: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that we will have to have a debate on this subject at the earliest possible opportunity? Would he agree that the reorganisation that the House approved and which the taxpayers in part are paying for cannot possibly succeed with this high level of cheap imports? Is he aware that no one connected with the industry, and certainly no one in the House, would say that the imports from our Commonwealth countries ought to be cut off, but would he face the problem of how to keep the industry going when we are taking about twenty times more imports than our competitors? In these circumstances something more must be done than the right hon. Gentleman has suggested this afternoon.
Mr. Erroll: We must remember that the imports which came in in such large quantities in 1960 and the beginning of 1961 came in because the Lancashire industry could not meet the demand in this country and had very long order books. If the industry was then suffering from imports, it is now suffering from a certain amount of over-stocking which is working out. I am able to announce today, too, that agreement has been reached on the provision of the figures of stocks which will be made available to people in the industry, so that for the first time in Lancashire's history there will be a comprehensive picture of the stock position. I therefore think that Lancashire will be able to assure for itself a place in the economic life of the country comensurate with its ability to regain export markets and reorganise its structure.
Mr. S. Silverman: Will the President of the Board of Trade tell the House
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what his position will be if his optimistic forecast of what Lancashire will think of this statement turns out to be unreal? If Lancashire is as disappointed as many of us think that it will be, will the Government change their mind about this? In the meantime, will he bear in mind some of the facts which he seems to have overlooked? Is it not true that when the Cotton Industry Act was passed in 1959 it was to give the textile industry an opportunity of adjusting itself to the new world situation? Since that time the amount of imported manufactured goods for retention in the home market, so far from having fallen, has increased more than twenty times. The President spoke about unemployment in the cotton area of Lancashire, but does he know that in my own constituency it is already running between 8 or 9 per cent., although the national average is scarcely more than 1 per cent.? Does not the right hon. Gentleman appreciate that in these circumstances his statement will spread such alarm and despondency throughout the industry as to make it not worth anyone's while to avail themselves of the offer of re-equipment subsidies up to 8th July? Are we not reaching a situation when the question before the House will have to be whether we desire to retain a cotton textile industry in this country at all?
Mr. Erroll: I will certainly bear in mind the points which the hon. Gentleman has made and, if there is a debate on this subject, I will do my best to reply to them.
Mr. S. Silverman: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I desire to ask leave to move the Adjournment of the House under Standing Order No. 9 for the purpose of drawing attention to a definite matter of urgent public importance, namely, the acceptance by Her Majesty's Government of proposals that will paralyse the cotton industry of Lancashire.
Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman) asks leave
"to move the Adjournment of the House for the purpose of discussing a definite matter of urgent public importance, namely, the acceptance by Her Majesty's Government of proposals that will paralyse the cotton industry of Lancashire."

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I regret that I do not feel able to put that matter to the House.
Mr. Silverman: In giving that Ruling, Mr. Speaker, had you paid regard to the fact that before we shall again have an opportunity of discussing this matter these agreements may be ratified and the last opportunity of preventing that may have been lost? Does that not render it a matter of immediate urgency?
Mr. Speaker: I wish to adhere to my Ruling. I feel confident that it is right.
Mrs. Castle: In supporting the representations made by my hon. Friend the Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman), may I ask you, Mr. Speaker,

STATISTICAL TABLES

TABLE 1

ANNUAL CEILINGS FOR CLOTH AND MADE-UP GOODS (CLOTH EQUIVALENT) IMPORTED FOR RETENTION

Million sq. yds.

—

Original

Current*

Hong Kong

…

…

…

164

185

(February, 1959-January, 1962)

India

…

…

…

175

195

(January, 1960-December, 1961)

Pakistan

…

…

…

38

42

(January, 1960-December, 1961)

377

422

* NOTE: Provision is made in the present arrangements for the issue of supplementary quotas, on certain conditions, if this is necessary to ensure that the voluntary restraint exercised by these countries does not prejudice their share of the United Kingdom market in relation to other exporting countries.

if you are aware that when a deputation from the cotton industry met hon. Members—the Textile Action Group—on Monday it was put to us that mills in Lancashire may close this weekend if there is not immediate restoration of confidence there. Therefore, if the Minister's statement further destroys confidence, there is a very urgent element in the consequences for Lancashire.
Mr. Speaker: I am afraid that I cannot, in giving a Ruling on these matters, assess the hypothetical results of something, even if strong expressions have been made about it. I cannot accept the proposition that I should put the application to the House.
Following are the figures:

TABLE 3

IMPORTS OF COTTON PIECE GOODS

Million sq. yds.

—

1959

1960

1961

1961

1962

1st Quarter

2nd Quarter

3rd Quarter

4th Quarter

1st Quarter

Total imports

525

713

714

221

192

163

138

143

of which for re-export

153

191

193

55

54

47

37

30

For retention of which

372

522

521

166

138

116

101

113

A. Dutyfree

From Hong Kong

India and Pakistan

305

320

259

83

72

61

43

60

From Canada

—

10

22

5

6

5

6

3

From other Common-wealth countries and Irish Republic

4

6

11

2

3

2

3

2

Total duty-free

309

336

292

90

81

68

52

65

B. Dutiable

From countries now restrained

17

74

90

27

22

22

19

16

From Western Europe and U.S.A

44

82

95

31

24

17

22

23

Other countries

2

30

44

18

11

9

8

9

Total dutiable

63

186

229

76

57

48

49

48

*Western Europe: West Germany, Netherlands, Belgium, France, Italy, Austria and Switzerland.

REPRESENTATION OF THE PEOPLE ACT, 1949 (AMENDMENT)
3.54 p.m.
Mr. Kenneth Lewis (Rutland and Stamford): I beg to move,
That leave be given to bring in a Bill to amend the Second Schedule to the Representation of the People Act, 1949, by increasing the sum to be deposited by or on behalf of a candidate.
I hope the House will not think it inappropriate that the hon. Member for Rutland and Stamford (Mr. K. Lewis) should have ten minutes out of the two days allotted to a discussion on the European Common Market. There are three races being run today, and in each of them the House has a varying degree of interest. Two of them are Parliamentary races—at Middlesbrough and West Derbyshire—and I believe that some hon. Members have been on the canter up and have laid their bets. The third is a horse race, and I gather that certain of our colleagues have engagements with their constituents at Epsom today.
I think hon. Members will agree that no one would wish to go to Derby or any other horse race if the jockeys were to say in advance that they had no intention of trying to win. Similarly, Parliamentary elections would be dull indeed if candidates evoked no interest in the result. Yet at Middlesbrough today we have a candidate, Lieut. Thompson, who states that he has no wish even to leave the starting post. He does not mind losing his deposit, which is little enough.
On 30th May, the hon. and learned Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget) asked my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for War about service candidates and the latest
"… cut-rate back door"—
way out of—
"the Army.…"'—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 30th May. 1962; Vol. 660, c. 1342.]
My right hon. Friend answered by saying that it did not seem to him to be right that he should take powers to prevent people who genuinely wanted to stand for Parliament from doing so. The important question we have to ask is what is meant by "genuine". Lieut.
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Thompson, to whom I have referred, has stated that his sole reason for standing as a candidate is that it is only by that means that he can get out of the Army. This seems like the "Ever-readies" in reverse.
A General Election could knock the recruiting drive of the Services sky high. Indeed, if a great many Service men who wanted to quit the Army and could not afford to pay the £200 or £250 which is involved then decided to put up as Parliamentary candidates at £150 a time, what sort of state would we be in? We might find that the War Office would get the Government it wanted through split vote Service candidates. If the candidates won, the position would be even worse. We might get a "Monty" Ministry backed by Lord Beaverbrook with all-starred Ministers. The Minister of Defence might have five or six stars, some of the others might have three or four stars, some two, some one and some, sad to say—especially those concerned with the Common Market—none at all.
For this far-fetched but possible situation, I consider that we in this House have only ourselves to blame. The original intention of the deposit, which has operated since 1918, was to try to ensure that bona fide seriously intentioned candidates stood for Parliament. The deposit fixed then was £150, which was forfeit if the candidate did not receive more than 12½ per cent. of the poll. That sum was fixed by a conference on Parliamentary reform after a resolution to reduce the amount to £100 had been discussed at some length, the motion to reduce it to £100 having been defeated
The genesis of this amount was described by Mr. Macmaster—and I refer to a totally different gentleman— in Committee on the Representation of the People Bill in 1917 as follows:
"The sum of £150 was arrived at after a very great deal of discussion by the Conference. The extreme proposal was £250 but the real difference was between £100 and £200. and it was compromised at £150."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 15th August. 1917; Vol. XCVII, c. 1254.]
This sum of £150 was maintained in the 1948 Act, and it was further consolidated in the Act of 1949.
I believe that the time has come when the amount should be reviewed. I do not want to prevent anyone from standing at a Parliamentary election as a

481
candidate for this House—be he crank or special pleader—but if the special cause is worth anything at all it must be worth backing in terms of present-day values. Hon. Members should realise that by standing for Parliament, without even seeking to canvas for votes, a man can advertise himself or his causes in many cases nationally for the equivalent cost of a one-page advertisement in a provincial newspaper over a period of four to six weeks.
Until a few months ago only platform tickets, ladies turnstile rooms and Parliamentary deposits were available at prewar prices. Now only ladies and Parliamentary candidates are so advantaged. The railway platform ticket doubled in price some months ago, and I believe that the deposit which candidates must put up—the political platform ticket— should double in price and go up from £150 to £300. It does not seem to me that there is any reason why political candidates should be able to opt out of the increased cost of living. They seem singularly unable to stabilise it when they get in here. It seems that £300 is reasonable having regard to the fact that the £ has dropped to one-fifth of its value since 1918. Hon. Members should remember that wages and salaries have gone up about four times their pre-war levels; political associations and trade unions have all greatly increased their political funds. If £150 was right in 1918, twice that amount would be reasonable now.
I fought my first election in 1945. I was then in the R.A.F. based at the Air Ministry. After I lost that election [HON. MEMBERS: "Shame."]—but not my deposit—I returned to the Air Ministry to seek out the department for the re-engagement of those who had retired or who had been demobbed. I found that no such department existed. In fact, I discovered that nobody ever came back after they were demobbed. I was unique. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] I was sent along to a new intake department where they thought that I was mad. Why had I bothered to come back? They offered to re-enlist me in the ranks and, by this time, I thought that I was mad.
Having found myself a comfortable niche, I had no wish to square-bash my way up again. So I fled for another
482
period of leave until they sorted out my problem. Unfortunately, my department at the Air Ministry got to work. They affirmed that their need was greater than mine. I have learned since coming to the House of Commons that the Patronage Secretary acts on about the same principle. I therefore found myself recalled and re-enlisted.
But this does not happen today. It used to be said about the Services "Once in you are in". But now the phrase is "Once out you are out"—if the Serviceman concerned seeks to fight an election. The Defence Ministries might spend hundreds of pounds transporting prospective candidates from the uttermost parts of the world to fight elections, yet all it need cost a Service man is the cost of a motor scooter.
The Bill I am seeking to introduce is designed to rectify this position. It should appeal to the Treasury, since at the next General Election that Department could well gain a harvest of lost deposits—at £300 a time. The Bill should also appeal to the voting public, because it will undoubtedly mean that candidates will have to bear the increase in the cost of living.
I hope the Bill will appeal to the House. I hope, at any rate, that if hon. Members want to put up a fence against this Measure they will bear in mind that this is the flat season and will allow the Bill to proceed and put up fences later on if they so desire.
4.3 p.m.
Mr. Michael Foot: Knowing that the House wants to get on to the extremely important debate that follows, I shall oppose the Bill in a few sentences. It is a wretched little Bill, and I do not believe that hon. Members should agree to its introduction.
One conclusive reason for opposing it is that it would be most unfair to the Conservative Party. Recent events have shown that hon. Gentlemen opposite are the only people who are in real danger of losing their deposits on a large scale. I am astonished, therefore, that the hon. Member for Rutland and Stamford (Mr. K. Lewis) should have dealt such a savage blow to his party. The only excuse I imagine that can be expected

483
from the hon. Member is that he proposes to write a letter to the right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond) regarding membership of the Liberal Party.
I hope, therefore, that the House will throw out this proposal. Everyone knows that if a candidate is to fight an election it is not merely a question of finding the £150 deposit. Much more money must be spent. We may get to a situation where the party opposite may have to give people £150 to get them to stand as their candidates. In the interest of the Conservative Party, I urge hon. Members to oppose the Measure.
Question put, pursuant to Standing Order No. 12 (Motion for leave to bring in Bills and nomination of Select Committees at the commencement of Public Business), and negatived.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

  SUPPLY
  [19TH ALLOTTED DAY]
  Considered in Committee.
  [Sir WILLIAM ANSTRUTHER-GRAY in the Chair]

CIVIL ESTIMATES, 1962–63
  CLASS IV

    VOTE 4. EXPORT CREDITS
    Motion made, and Question proposed,
    That a sum, not exceeding £900, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1963, for the salaries and expenses of the Export Credits Guarantee Department, including a subscription to an international organisation, and for payments under guarantees given after consultation with the Export Guarantees Advisory Council [£100 has been voted on account.]
    Whereupon Motion made, and Question, That the Chairman do report Progress and ask leave to sit again— [Mr. Chichester-Clark]—put and agreed to.
    Committee report Progress; to sit again Tomorrow.

    EUROPEAN ECONOMIC COMMUNITY
    Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.— [Mr. Redmayne.]
    4.5 p.m.
    The Lord Privy Seal (Mr. Edward Heath): On 3rd August last year, the House passed the following Resolution:
    "That this House supports the decision of Her Majesty's Government to make formal application under Article 237 of the Treaty of Rome in order to initiate negotiations to see if satisfactory arrangements can be made to meet the special interests of the United Kingdom, of the Commonwealth and of the European Free Trade Association; and further accepts the undertaking of Her Majesty's Government that no agreement affecting these special interests or involving British sovereignty will be entered into until it has been approved by this House after full consultation with other commonwealth countries, by Whatever procedure they may generally agree."

    485
    I have read that Resolution in full because I wish to state clearly at the beginning of the debate that this fully represents Her Majesty's Government's position. I hope, therefore, that there will be no question during the debate about the action which it will be necessary to take as far as the Commonwealth is concerned and Parliament is concerned before any final decision is taken. It is on this basis that we are negotiating in Brussels with the member Governments of the European Economic Community. In a debate one does not always use the full formula which I have read out in the Resolution. I hope that the House will understand that what I say is always set in the context of the Resolution passed by Parliament.
    On Monday last, the right hon. Member for Huyton (Mr. H. Wilson) rightly reminded us that we are negotiating in the national interest. I assure the House that it is with a very full sense of responsibility that we are carrying on these negotiations in Brussels. Here, I pay a tribute to the work of the officials of the delegation who have earned not only the respect but, it is generally agreed, the admiration of the other officials with whom they are negotiating. I believe that they are serving our country well.
    On 10th October, I made a full statement in Paris setting out the position of the British Government in these negotiations. For the past eight months, we have been continuing them in Brussels. It may, perhaps, be unusual in a negotiation of this kind, which must, I think, be the most complex and complicated in which a British Government have ever taken part, to have a debate in midstream. We ought, perhaps, to remember that the direct interests of some 27 independent countries together with some 47 Dependencies of the British Commonwealth are affected by the negotiations in Brussels.
    This debate gives me an opportunity to tell the House as much as possible of what has been going on. Much has been told already. My statement in Paris was very full. I have endeavoured to convey to the House from time to time the individual results of the Ministerial meetings. I believe that there has been more public discussion of this issue in the Press, on the radio, on television and by every other means than
    486
    there has been about any other single issue in British politics since the war. Although some may say that they still fail to realise the issues at stake, there can be no doubt that the media of public information in this country have done more than at any other time to try to clarify the matter—at least in most cases to try to clarify them. There has certainly been widespread public discussion.
    I believe that what the House would like to have is an exposition of the situation. In this my right hon. Friends the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations and the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food will take part in those interests which are of particular concern to their Departments. I have no doubt that some hon. Members will wish to go back to the fundamentals of the subject, the meaning of the Treaty of Rome, and so on. For the purposes of this debate, I wish, in the limited time available, to deal as fully as I can with the course of the negotiations. What I wish to do is this. First, I intend, very briefly and without going all over the ground again, to set the context in which, I suggest, the actual negotiations themselves should be seen and the work we have been trying to do should be evaluated. I shall go over the ground we have covered in the first seven months of preparations for the negotiations proper. I shall then turn to the technique of tackling the problems with which we are faced and the progress which we have made. Next, I shall say a few words about the position of our E.F.T.A. partners. Then, as I think the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition and his right hon. and hon. Friends would wish, I shall say something about developments towards political union in Europe in which the House takes the closest interest.
    I turn now to a brief sketch of the context in which these negotiations are set. We are living in a period of intense change both politically and economically in the world around us. I sometimes doubt that the people of this country altogether realise the extent and the depth of the change which is taking place in the world outside.
    I take, first, the political change. Since the last war, we have seen the development of two great Power groupings, the

    487
    first consequence of which was that other Powers sought protection in an alliance in the West under the deterrent of nuclear power, the greater part of this, as we have always recognised, being in the hands of the United States, some being in the hands of this country. Then we have seen a movement towards nuclear parity. It is as a result of this that European countries have developed a new consciousness about defence, a consciousness which did not exist before in the earlier developments of the great Power groupings and the development of the thermo-nuclear deterrent. We see, today, that Europe has recovered an enormous amount of its strength, and with that recovery has come confidence in itself and a spirit of pride and independence. This has been expressed in the European Economic Community, together with the determination of its members to strengthen their voice and their influence in Europe.
    These things are happening. I believe that every impartial observer will accept what I have said. We could not prevent them happening, even if we wished to do so, Which we do not. The pace of these developments may vary, and there may be setbacks from time to time, but the developments, broadly, will continue.
    The Community will, therefore, become a centre of strength and influence. It will develop policies and opinions about every matter affecting European and international affairs; policies and opinions affecting relations with the Soviet Union and with the countries of the Eastern bloc, both politically and economically. It will develop an attitude towards neutralism. It will develop policies towards the under-developed countries. The more the Community develops the more powerful will its influence become.
    In the sphere of economic change, we see many other processes at the same time. Throughout the world today, there is the emergence of surpluses of raw materials and of foodstuffs, temperate products and tropical products. We see the acute need for stability in the developing countries of the world. In the industrial countries, we have entered a new phase. There is now a genuine desire for a reduction of industrial tariffs between the comparatively few industrialised
    488
    countries of the world. These countries believe that greater trade between themselves helps the developing countries because of the increased demand for raw materials and many other products which accompanies that increase in trade between the industrialised countries. Moreover, we see in the West the need for a sound economic basis for its political strength in order to maintain its free way of life. These are rapid changes in the economic situation which have taken place recently in the world.
    In this context is set economically the development of the Community under the Treaty of Rome. Here, I wish to refer to the general aspects of it in order, again, not to go over the whole ground. In the Community there is a much larger market of nearly 170 million people, a market which permits greater specialisation and greater competition, a market which leads to greater efficiency and permits greater developments in research and technology and which has, moreover, the stimulus for its individual members of taking part in a wider organisation with a commensurate exchange of ideas leading to greater life and vitality in the individual countries. This has been reflected in the high rate of growth.
    None of these advantages is automatic to the members, of course. They represent opportunities which have to be used by members if they are to secure the advantages of membership. One aspect of the Treaty of Rome which I should emphasise here, because it has arisen in discussions in this country, is that the purpose of the provisions of the Treaty is to maintain a fairness between the members of the Community in their economic activity. In this, of course, it is distinguished from the forms of free trade which we have known in earlier parts of Western history.
    Now comes the question in this context. What is to be our attitude towards the economic and political changes which have taken place so recently? Are we to stay politically outside Europe? Are we to be excluded from these developments? There are some who say that, if we take part in them, we shall not be able to influence them. How much the less one can influence them from the outside. I have no doubt at all about the ability of this country to play its

    489
    full part in influencing these movements if it should be possible for it to become a member of the European Economic Community. Will the United States or the Commonwealth look upon us as better partners, more valuable partners, if we remain outside the main stream of European growth? The Government believe that, provided that we can make proper arrangements, we should be prepared to play our full part in the Community.
    This is no one-sided matter. We believe that we have an enormous amount to contribute to the Community if we are able to play our part in it. We have our political traditions and experience. We have the stability of our own forms of Government. We have the industrial strength, skill and ingenuity of our people to contribute towards this movement in Europe if we play our part in it. Nor do I believe that to do so would be incompatible with our Commonwealth ties or with our influences and friendships with other parts of the world, with the United States or with other countries with which we have close relationships. The members of the Community have retained their own close relationships and historical ties with many countries in Africa, in the West Indies and in the Pacific. That has contributed to the influence not only of themselves but of the Community. I therefore believe that the work of constructive statesmanship should be to reconcile the new movements in Europe with the Commonwealth and all our ties with it to the enrichment of both.
    Secondly, on the economic question, what sort of economic base do we wish the United Kingdom to have? Is it to be a comparatively small one limited (to our present activity, or should it spread to a larger one of a market of nearly 250 million people? What sort of trading relationships do we wish to have, not only with the Commonwealth, but with Europe and with the developing countries of the world? Do we wish to have a narrow front with our trading relationships or to spread them widely in the interests of many other countries besides our own and our own Commonwealth?
    I have no doubt about the views of the Commonwealth countries on this. They have themselves, quite rightly, been
    490
    spreading their trading relationships much more widely of recent years, because they believe in the wider outlook of world trade. To those who have asked and who may ask in this debate what are the reasons why the Government have entered into the negotiations, I suggest that those which I have put forward are powerful political and economic reasons for taking part in these negotiations. Economically, there will be opportunities which must be seized, but it remains fundamentally true that only a prosperous United Kingdom can provide an expanding market for the Commonwealth and can provide adequate investment for the Commonwealth. Only a competitive United Kingdom can retain its own place in the Commonwealth markets.
    Therefore, for these reasons, Her Majesty's Government believe that it is right to enter these negotiations and to continue the negotiations. Let me assure those of my right hon. Friends and others who this morning indicated in a national newspaper that they believed that these negotiations had now come to a standstill that nothing could be further from the truth and that Her Majesty's Government believe it right to continue the negotiations.
    Mr. Paul Williams (Sunderland, South): That is not what we said at all.
    Mr. Heath: It took seven months of preparation before we came to the actual phase of negotiation. What were we doing during that time? We took the major problems involved in the negotiations and broke them down into smaller problems. We conceived methods of analysis and statistical compilation in order to deal with every item of trade of the 27 independent countries and of the 47 dependencies with which we have been dealing.
    We took the opportunity in our discussions with the Community to point out the importance and nature of the British Commonwealth. I believe that now there is a greater understanding, although not yet a full understanding, of the nature of the British Commonwealth in the members of the Community. We pointed out the constitutional ties which bind us, the consultation which goes on continually from the Prime Ministers'

    491
    Conference downwards, the personal association and the fact that the Commonwealth embraces every continent, every colour and every creed and has its own form of influence on world affairs This has been our task.
    There is still some misunderstanding, perhaps, that we are endeavouring to bring all the countries of the Commonwealth in as members or associate members of the European Economic Community. That is not our purpose in the negotiations. But if we are to reach satisfactory conclusions and solutions, then we wish to instil a full understanding of the nature of the Commonwealth itself and the ties which bind us.
    Let me tell the House some of the points which have been put before us by the members of the Community. I think that this is necessary in order to evaluate the sort of conclusions which we reached and the solutions which we are later to put before Parliament. First of all, the Community emphasises again and again the importance to it of the Treaty of Rome as the framework within which it operates. It is not so rigid as to say that exceptions cannot be made. What it does point out is that the exceptions must not be such as to become the rule. This is the basis on which the Community is operating.
    Secondly, it emphasises constantly the importance to the Community of the common tariff which surrounds it and towards which individual countries are moving. This is emphasised because the Community regards it at present as the strong support and framework for its operations. Moreover, it is, of course, true that this is its main argument when it sets out to reduce industrial tariffs by bargaining reciprocally with other industrial countries. Again, therefore, as the Community attaches immense importance to the common tariff, it is not so rigid that it says that exceptions are impossible, but it emphasises that the exceptions must not be of such a kind or of such a size as to become the rule.
    The third point which we have come to understand much better in these negotiations is that we are negotiating not with a static organisation but with a rapidly developing and changing one. It is based on what is really, we would
    492
    term, an enabling treaty which provides a framework the detail of which has to be worked out by its members as it proceeds.
    I will not disguise from the House that these points have presented negotiating problems to us in three particular spheres—first, in the sphere of agriculture; secondly, in the developments of association under Part IV of the Treaty for the under-developed countries; and, thirdly, recently in the political developments under the Fouchet, now Cattani, Commission. We have in fact been negotiating with something which is much akin to a moving belt. The dilemma is this, that if we are to take part in the developments and if it should ultimately prove impossible for us to join the Community, the Community would find itself at the end of the day having made no progress during that time. On the other hand, if we do not take part in these individual negotiations, these individual developments, and become members of the Community at that time, adaptations have to be made in the policies which have been worked out.
    This is a difficult problem, and it is being solved with good will on both sides by our having the opportunity to express our views as the policies have been developing, and we hope that any adaptations which will be necessary will be made at the time without undue difficulty.
    The fourth point with which one has been impressed in the negotiations—and I think that it is of great importance to us—is the confidence which the members of the Community have in their ability to deal with problems in the future through the institutions which have been set up under the Treaty of Rome. They are more and more working together as a community in the interests of their members. It is therefore perhaps understandable that they find it difficult to appreciate why on so many occasions we should ask for specific definitions, or specific arrangements, about events some time in the future, the nature of which cannot at this stage be directly foreseen. They have confidence that, with their existing machinery of the Council of Ministers, the Commission and the European Court,

    493
    they will be able to deal with problems as they arise and to adapt themselves.
    In these negotiations, I believe that there has been a gradual realisation of the attitudes which are required. On our part, an understanding of the nature of the way a community of this kind deals with its problems is required. On their part, what is required is to think no longer in terms of a community of six members but of an enlarged community of seven, nine or ten members, with perhaps associated members, and to think in terms of what is required to handle that situation. Again, that means that with good will on both sides changes and developments in attitude are required, which I believe have been gradually brought about.
    There is one particular point on the nature of the Community with which I should like to deal because it has been much discussed in public. Many have urged that the Community should be outward-looking, rather indicating that at the moment this is not so, and urging the United Kingdom to use its voice to bring about an outward-looking aspect to the Community. There is already a great deal of evidence of the outward-looking nature of the Community. It is true that we would be able to reinforce this, but let me look at the questions which indicate this.
    First, there is the fact that the general level of the common tariff is lower than that of the United Kingdom tariff. In that respect it is more outward-looking. From the point of view of the Dillon Round the Community showed itself prepared to make very considerable reductions in its industrial tariff on a reciprocal basis, almost up to 20 per cent. It is interesting to look at the percentage of the gross national product devoted by countries through public and private means to the developing countries and through the multilateral agencies. I should like to give the figures for 1960: France, 2·5 per cent.; the Netherlands, 2·13 per cent.; Belgium, 1·47 per cent.; the United Kingdom, 1·36 per cent.; Germany, ·93 per cent.; and the United States, ·83 per cent. These figures are very revealing as to what the countries of the Community are already doing to help the under-developed countries of the world with aid. This shows I think that they
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    are prepared to go a long way in helping these countries.
    Then there is the question of the trade of the Community with the developing countries. It has been said that were we to become members we should endanger much of the trade with the under-developed countries. I have never quite understood why this should be so, because so much of our trade of this kind is in tropical products and other raw materials which we are bound to go on importing because we have no source of them in the United Kingdom nor in the Community countries of Europe. Therefore, this trade is bound to continue. The trade figures of the Community from 1958 to 1961 show that its imports have risen by 27 per cent. It takes 40 per cent. of the world imports of tropical vegetables, oils and oil seeds. I could give many examples from the figures I have here. Its imports of cocoa from Ghana represent 25 per cent. of Ghana's total exports. The United Kingdom's figure is 10 per cent. The Community takes 40 per cent. of the Commonwealth's total exports of cocoa. The United Kingdom takes 20 per cent.
    It is therefore quite clear that the Community countries already have a very great interest in Commonwealth trade, particularly in these tropical products to which so many of our own countries contribute. I therefore do not think that the argument that we are negotiating with a Community which is only inward-looking is justified. I believe that what I have said shows that it is already outward-looking, that many of its members wish to carry this further and that we ourselves should be ready to reinforce that tendency.
    I now turn to the technique of the negotiations. The fundamental problem with which we are faced—I think that this may lead to an understanding of the solution which is propounded—is to reconcile the Customs Union, which is the basis of the Community by which as I have explained so much store is set, with the preferential trading area which we have in the Commonwealth, even though that itself is not a simple organisation but is infinitely varied and contains within itself a free-trade area and a Customs Union.
    Therefore, the fundamental problem is, what sort of solutions are we to find to this problem? There is, in fact, no

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    single simple solution. That is why we have had to break it down into a number of different problems—nine or ten. I should like to go through each in turn in order to show the House how this has been tackled. It has been tackled, of course, with the assistance of the Commonwealth countries themselves. In view of what has often been said in the House, here I should like for my part to thank the Commonwealth Governments for the information which they have continuously given us since the beginning of these negotiations, which has enabled us to form our judgments, and for the views which many of them have expressed on so many occasions on the solutions which we have put to them.
    The first problem with which we have had to deal has been the general level of the common tariff. We accepted the structure of this in the statement in Paris. The ultimate level which emerges is of great importance to the Commonwealth and to other third countries. We ourselves have offered to reduce this by up to 20 per cent., including the results now settled by the Dillon Round, because we believe that it would demonstrate to other countries in G.A.T.T. that this was going to be an outward-looking organisation. The position is that no further action can be taken on the level of the common tariff until the end of the negotiations because it will be necessary to take into account all the other individual arrangements which I shall describe to the House as I proceed.
    What I think is encouraging is that British industry has accepted the proposals put forward at Paris to accept the level of the common tariff at the moment of the entry of this country into the Community. It has accepted that as a challenge to its production in this country and also as an opportunity for exporting to Europe when we go into the Community.
    The second group with which we have been dealing is the request for zero tariffs on a number of raw materials. Many raw materials come into the Community already free of duty. These include such important ones as wool, timber, copper and nickel—all very important to Commonwealth countries. So they will continue to come into the
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    enlarged Community from that date, and they present no trading problem.
    But we have put forward proposals for what are known as the Big Five— aluminium, lead, zinc, wood pulp and newsprint—to have a zero tariff, together with a certain number of others. Here we have deployed the argument about the importance of a large industrialised Community obtaining its raw materials without duties upon them. We have also emphasised the need to take into account the new balance between supply and demand within the Community.
    If one may give just one example, at the moment the Community produces four-fifths of its aluminium and imports one-fifth. We import four-fifths and produce only one-fifth. There is, therefore, a directly contradictory position between the United Kingdom and the Community in this matter which has to be reconciled. At the same time the Community has pointed out the interests of the producers in the Community itself. Therefore, we are now seeking solutions on each of these items in order to reconcile the position between the producers and the importers.
    I now turn to the third group, which is that of the manufactured goods from Canada, Australia and New Zealand, about which I have already made a statement to the House. We put before the Community the importance of this trade to these countries, and emphasised that it is a small part of the trade of the Community as a whole and particularly of what the enlarged Community will be. But there were also the arguments from the Community about the difficulty. which hon. Members opposite who have been in office will well recognise, of segregating industrial goods in a common market, and particularly in the form of discrimination which would be necessary with some form of certification if we were attempting to do that.
    So we finally reached a compromise solution which I have already described to the House. It is one in which the members of the Community have moved towards us in order to meet the needs of Australia, New Zealand and Canada. We have reached this arrangement about décalage, the gradual application of the tariff in three stages, together with the

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    undertaking about the reviews in the negotiations in G.A.T.T. on these industrial products and the reviews in 1966 and 1969. This, therefore, is more than the Treaty of Rome provides for. It will be giving the opportunity to these industrial goods of having a period of adaptation longer than would otherwise be granted.
    Perhaps I ought to describe here, in view of the item with which I have just been dealing—manufactured goods— what the position is about such solutions as we have found. This is of course, related to the Resolution which I read to the House at the beginning of this debate. This is only one of the main subjects which has to be covered before we can see the main outlines of an agreement. We have already stated, and repeatedly stated—my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has stated it —that no agreement of this kind can be entered into until it has been approved by the House after full consultation with the Commonwealth in the way that I have already described. We shall try to work out in Brussels solutions to these main problems.
    The solution which I have put before the House, and which I have gone over again today, represents the one we have reached in the field of manufactures from the developing Commonwealth. The Prime Ministers' Conference and subsequently Parliament will have to consider this along with all the other proposed solutions in the other field, which I am just going on to, as part of an overall settlement. Therefore, this arrangement which we have reached is, of course, dependent on all the other arrangements which we shall try to reach in the overall solution. They must be considered together, and, I suggest, evaluated together.
    I turn now to the next group, which is that of the manufactured or processed foodstuffs. What I want to emphasise here is that they are being treated separately from the industrial or factory goods with which I have just been dealing. They have not yet been discussed in the negotiations.
    Now we come to the group that we have also discussed recently, which is that of the products of the Asian members of the Commonwealth, in particular India, Pakistan and Ceylon. The very
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    delicate nature of the position here has been well illustrated in this House both on Monday of this week and again this afternoon with the statement of my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade, because it is to such a large degree concerned with textile products from the Asian countries. Our object here in these negotiations has been to avoid damage in trade from these countries to this country and the Community. It is of great importance to them because of the need to pay for imports for their development plans and to service the loans of their development plans. But we have also been able to emphasise to the members of the Community the very great interest which they themselves already have in the Indian sub-continent. They are contributing some 20 per cent. to the third five-year Indian plan and we are contributing 11 per cent., a total of 31 per cent. from the enlarged Community. They are contributing 10 per cent. to the Pakistan second five-year plan, and we are contributing 5 per cent. They are contributing almost twice as much as ourselves. The total is 16 per cent. from the enlarged Community.
    Mr. Hugh Gaitskell (Leeds, South): Will the right hon. Gentleman make it clear whether these are loans or grants, or both?
    Mr. Heath: They are part of the normal consortium in which we take part, and are loans.
    So the members have a great interest in seeing that these countries can pay for the imports necessary to carry out these plans and also to service them.
    We have, therefore, put forward proposals to meet these two ends. One object is to prevent damage to this trade. I would here point out for the hon. Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey) that this includes provision for the element of growth necessary for them in the development of these plans.
    There is also the question of tea, for which we have asked for a zero tariff. There are certain other manufactures for which we have asked special arrangements. The members of the Community have, of course, pointed out their continuing anxiety about textile imports from these countries. Therefore, we have to find an arrangement which is acceptable in both ways.

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    Hong Kong has similar problems. We have not yet discussed this or put forward proposals, but we shall do that in the course of the next few weeks.
    I now turn to—
    Mr. Sydney Silverman (Nelson and Colne): Before the right hon. Gentleman leaves that point, I am sure that the House would be glad to be reassured that when he is continuing his negotiations about the problems of the Hong Kong textile trade he will not ignore Lancashire's interest in this matter, because this is fundamental to the continuance of our own industry.
    Mr. Heath: I quite understand that point, but, of course, we must respect the position of Hong Kong—its existing rights and so on—as well as the position in this country and the Community.
    Those, then, in Asia, are some of the developing countries. The remainder we are considering in the negotiations under the question of association under Part IV of the Treaty.
    Mr. Gaitskell: Will the right hon. Gentleman answer one question in connection with this? Would he make it plain that the British Government are themselves negotiating about, for example, possible quotas for India, Pakistan and Hong Kong in the European countries and not simply leaving it to those countries to negotiate themselves?
    Mr. Heath: We are negotiating about the arrangements for this country as a member of the Community, if that comes about, in the transitional period and in the longer period, and that obviously affects the present members as well as the United Kingdom.
    Mr. Gaitskell: I am sorry to interrupt again, but this is a very important point. What I was asking was not whether we were negotiating on our own basis. Of course we are. But are we not negotiating on behalf of the Commonwealth countries as well?
    Mr. Heath: Yes, Sir; of course. That applies to all the negotiations. There would be no anxiety on the part of the members of the Community if we were negotiating only about the products of
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    those countries coming to the United Kingdom. Of course they are concerned about the products from the Commonwealth countries coming into the Community as a whole. That is the position on which we are negotiating. I hope that clears up the point.
    Mr. Hector Hughes (Aberdeen, North): Might I ask the right hon. Gentleman a question? He has mentioned the impact of the Common Market on a great variety of British industries, but he has made no reference to one very important industry which employs thousands of British people and helps to feed the British people, namely, the fishing industry. Will he say what impact he expects Britain's entry into the Common Market will have upon that very important industry?
    Mr. Heath: I can easily give the answer to that. It is that the Community has not yet developed a common fishing policy.
    May I turn now, after that brief—
    Mr. Hughes Mr. Hughes rose—
    Hon. Members: Sit down.
    Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Sir William Anstruther-Gray): Order. The hon. and learned Member for Aberdeen, North (Mr. Hector Hughes) knows the conventions of this House. Mr. Heath.
    Mr. Hughes Mr. Hughes rose—
    Mr. Heath: Perhaps I can help the hon. and learned Member by telling him that I fully realise the importance of the matter which he has raised.
    Mr. Hughes: It is no joking matter.
    Mr. Heath: I was in no way joking about it. I said that the Community has not yet developed a common fishing policy. If we become members of the Community, we shall play our part in working it out. It is a matter of the greatest importance.
    I now turn to the question of the other developed members of the Commonwealth. The question of association under Part IV of the Treaty has to be renegotiated before the end of 1962. We have asked for an offer of association for Such developing countries. It is, of course, for the countries within the Commonwealth themselves to say whether or

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    not they wish to take advantage of this. They will also wish to know the nature of the general arrangements before they decide.
    Here again is a negotiating dilemma, because, of course, in working out the new arrangements for association with the Community which have to be fixed by the end of 1962, the Community naturally wishes to know which of the countries of the Commonwealth is likely to want to be associated. This is a dilemma that we shall have to resolve in the course of the next few months.
    We have made known to the Community our own views as to what the content of an association of this kind should be, the nature of the preferential arrangements, the nature of the financial arrangements and the institutions to be concerned with it. We must recognise, of course, that the Community has its obligations to the existing associates, and it is also—and this is related to what I said earlier about the outward-looking nature of the Community—greatly concerned about the effect of widening a preferential area of this kind with other third countries. That is particularly the case with the tropical products of South America and Central America, and therefore it is of great importance that we should take these into account when we are considering the nature of these arrangements. Alternative arrangements will have to be found in particular commodities if the Commonwealth countries do not wish to take advantage of the arrangements which I have been describing, and if there is a general desire for some tropical product, for example coffee, to work towards worldwide arrangements.
    Mrs. Barbara Castle: Would the right hon. Gentleman say whether the Six have agreed to make an offer of association to any of the underdeveloped countries in our Common-wealth which may wish to have it made to them?
    Mr. Heath: We have reached no agreement on the solution of this particular aspect of the matter. There are very good reasons for that. As I have said, it has to be re-negotiated between the Community and the associated territories themselves.
    I now come to what is generally agreed to be the most difficult of all the
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    problems that we have to deal with, and that is the import of temperate foodstuffs, which means particularly the products of the old Commonwealth, such as cereals, dairy produce and meat products. Here again, we have emphasised its importance to the Commonwealth, and the House, I think, needs no figures to illustrate that because it is already well known. We have asked for an assurance of comparable outlets. This means an assurance of access, not an assurance of guaranteed sales but an assurance of access for the transitional period and a general assurance thereafter. If I may, I will put the arguments which have been offered in answer to that.
    The point of view of the Community is that these are assurances which their individual members have not got in quite this form. There are difficulties again about the relationship between the third countries, particularly the United States and the Argentine, and arrangements at such long range tend to freeze the pattern of trade and also tend to reduce progress towards world-wide arrangements. I think that it is quite right that we should face these difficulties very frankly. This matter is of great importance to the Commonwealth, to Parliament and to these negotiations, and we must find the solution to it however difficult it may be.
    The next group I can deal with briefly, because my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture will deal with it later this evening, and that is the arrangements for our own domestic agriculture. The Community have taken hard and difficult decisions in formulating a common agricultural policy. The individual member countries are making the necessary adjustments. What, I think, affects them particularly is any idea that one future member is trying to lay claim to a special position in this respect in the Community as it develops.
    We have accepted the concept of a common agricultural policy. The regulations are being worked out for the Community, and my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture will, I think, be able to give the House much information about that tonight. Our object is to ensure that the new supply and demand position which will arise in the enlarged Community is recognised and

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    that the necessary adaptations are made to deal with it, and also to ensure that there is an adequate period for the farmers, traders and consumers to make the necessary adjustments. We also wish to ensure that the provisions of the Treaty of Rome, which give assurances to the agricultural industry as a whole, can be fully carried out. In fact, to sum up, our major concern is to see that the machinery for the concept of a common agricultural policy is operating efficiently and also that the price levels are sound and realistic, especially from the point of view of imports from our own Commonwealth and from third countries.
    The last group of problems with which we have to deal is that of the economic union provisions of the Treaty. Perhaps I may define these. They are the provisions of the Treaty listed under Article 3 with the exception of the common tariff and the common agricultural policy. They cover such matters as the free movement of persons, services, and capital, the common rules for the conduct of enterprises, competitive monopolies, restrictive practices, dumping, aids to industries in areas of economic difficulty, social provisions and so on. These exist in order to support the Customs union and to ensure fairness between its members and also to help in the improvements of the standard of living of its people.
    The Treaty has been the first step in setting out the framework. The provisions are now being worked out. We are not in fact very far advanced yet. We have not carried out negotiations about these matters. We have so far explored them with the Commission in order to obtain the explanations we required of the regulations that have been issued. We find on exploring these that there are no major points of principle involved in the ground that we have covered, but there are administrative problems which will arise and which will have to be discussed and sorted out. There is also the question of timing in some instances in the application of the policies. It is quite natural that we should also wish to discuss and arrange these with the Community.
    Perhaps I may now state the position with the European Free Trade Association. The obligations that we have
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    given to the Association are quite clear and remain and we adhere firmly to them. Norway and Denmark have applied for full membership and the Danish negotiations are under way. I hope that it will soon be possible for the Norwegian Government to meet the members of the Community. The three neutral countries have applied for association, and I hope that it will soon be possible for them to indicate their position to the Community. Portugal has just applied to discuss with the Community what arrangements it should enter into. Therefore, all the members of the European Free Trade Association have now entered into discussions, or at least approached the Community about the arrangements that should be made for them. We have kept in the closest consultation with them throughout. All the E.F.T.A. countries have kept in full communication with each other and we shall have a Ministerial meeting shortly in Copenhagen where we shall be able again to exchange views.
    Mr. Harold Wilson: The Lord Privy Seal has been very courteous to the House in giving way. The question of the position of our E.F.T.A. partners is vital, and the whole honour of the House is pledged to it, as he reminded us. Has he made it crystal clear to the people of the Six with whom he is negotiating that we must insist on the position of the neutral countries and that we cannot sell them down the river?
    Mr. Heath: The position was fully stated in my Paris statement, not only about the neutral countries but about all the members of E.F.T.A. Our obligations are to keep in consultation with them and to see that the arrangements come into operation at the same time. Those obligations are fully known by the members of the Community.
    Mr. Cledwyn Hughes: Will the Lord Privy Seal say a word about the position of the Republic of Ireland?
    Mr. Heath: The Republic of Ireland has made application to the Community for full membership and is carrying on negotiations with it. We have no obligations to the Republic of the kind that we have to the Commonwealth or

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    to E.F.T.A., but we have maintained close consultation with it over these past months.
    Finally, I want to turn to the aspects of political union with which the House has been concerned from time to time. In Brussels, we negotiated about the contents of the Rome Treaty. That Treaty expresses in its Preamble the desire to create a greater unity between its members. It contains in its Clauses no provisions for political arrangements dealing, for example, with foreign affairs, defence, education or culture. Its provisions deal only with economic matters. In Bonn, in July last year, the six member Governments together issued a declaration saying that they wished to work more closely together in other than economic spheres—in those of foreign policy, defence and the others that I have mentioned.
    Because it was not included in the Treaty of Rome it was necessary for them to create a new instrument if they wished to do that, and if they wished to create it they had to create it by unanimous agreement. They therefore set up a commission—the Fouchet Commission—to prepare texts towards this end. This Commission is now the Cattani Commission—M, Fouchet having gone to a position in Algeria. We are not members of this Commission because we are not members of the Community, and we have not asked to become members of it. But we have been kept fully informed by the six members of the Community of the activities of the Commission, and we are very grateful to the Six for this.
    We have asked that we should be able, at the appropriate moment, to discuss these matters with them. On 10th April I made a statement in the Western European Union—in which all seven of us are present as of right—explaining our views about these political developments but not commenting on the texts, because they have not been given to us formally and have not been agreed by the members of the Community. The matters with which the Fouchet and Cattani Commission have been concerned are matters of foreign policy, defence and culture.
    The texts which have been prepared —and obviously I cannot give the House details of them, because they are con-
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    fidential—[Interruption.] It is well known publicly that these are texts of the six Governments, which by courtesy have been handed to us.
    Mr. E. Shinwell: How is it possible to understand what is meant by a political development and a political concept unless the House is furnished with some details? To speak about foreign policy and defence touches only upon the fringe of political development.
    Mr. Heath: If the right hon. Gentleman will wait a little longer he will learn from what I have to say. At the meeting of Western European Union I made a general statement explaining our views about the developments in Europe. That was published in a White Paper, and the House will therefore not expect me to go over this in detail at the moment. But it did accept that the countries of Europe were going to work more closely together in these political relationships; that the three Communities—the Economic Community, the Coal and Steel Community and Euratom—would form the basis of the economic developments in Europe; that if there are to be developments in defence these should be within the N.A.T.O. framework, and that Europe itself, as it developed, would maintain its connections with the outside world; not only with the Commonwealth and with the United States but also with the countries which have historical ties with the existing members of the Community.
    As for the constitutional developments, I indicated our view that these will grow naturally to meet the requirements of developments in Europe. That is a typical British pragmatic approach. I also indicated to the meeting of the Western European Union that we would like to take part in discussions with them, at the appropriate moment—in other words, when the Ministers have generally agreed the texts between themselves but before there is final agreement we should have the opportunity of discussing with them these developments in the political sphere. That meets the point made by the right hon. Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell), because that would be the occasion when we would be able to discuss with them the position, and after which we should then

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    be in a better position to give information to the House.
    The situation is that since the meeting on 17th April of Ministers of the Community there have been no further developments in this sphere. There has therefore not yet been any specific invitation to us to take part in these discussions. But I believe that this matter is of such importance to Parliament and to the country that it would support me in saying to the Western European Union that we wanted to take part in these discussions on political developments which will affect all our futures if we are to become members of the Economic Community.
    I have endeavoured—in what I am afraid has been far too long a time— to describe the negotiations to the House. I have no doubt that the points which hon. Members will make in debate will be of great help to us. The Ministers taking part in these negotiations have all agreed to try to secure the outline of a possible solution by the end of July. We shall work towards that. No doubt there will from time to time be much speculation both ways about the progress of these negotiations, much of which may well be a war of nerves from various quarters. Whatever may happen, our task is to pursue these negotiations with determination and with all the skill that we can muster in order to do our utmost to achieve an honourable success.
    5.7 p.m.
    Mr. Hugh Gaitskell (Leeds, South): The House is indebted to the Lord Privy Seal for his comprehensive account of the negotiations. Although he did not tell us all the things that we should like to know, for reasons which we understand, he has nevertheless given the debate a good start. He has told us quite a lot, and it will be the kind of debate that I always wanted when I first proposed it several weeks ago.
    I should make it plain to the right hon. Gentleman, however, that the fact that we have not put down a Motion on the Order Paper and do not propose to divide the House must not be misunderstood by him and his right hon. Friends. It does not mean that we necessarily approve of everything that
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    they have done in these negotiations. As he knows, we reserve our position completely when the time comes to decide.
    We took this view of what sort of debate there should be, first, because our general position was made plain in the debate last July and again in a recent television broadcast of mine; secondly, because negotiations are in progress, whereas they were not last July, and we must await the results before we decide; and, thirdly, because it was essential to try at least to clarify the issues.
    The right hon. Gentleman argued that there had been a great deal of discussion in the British Press. That is true, but if he imagines that this has led to clarity in the public mind generally he is far from the truth. What we have had is a great deal of heat and not nearly enough light. I thank him for having given us a little more light this afternoon, and I hope that he will continue to do so and that, if necessary, we may have a further debate before the House rises for the Summer Recess.
    There is a great need for more clarification of the real issues and of the real alternatives facing the country and the Commonwealth. In my opinion, generalisations are now of little use. We know pretty well the broad arguments for and against. but we have to get down to detail and to decide exactly where the sticking points are to be, what kind of solution would be reasonable and what would be unreasonable.
    If there were any doubt about the degree of misunderstanding, I can think of no better illustration than the rather remarkable joint statement issued by Mr. Menzies and Mr. Marshall giving their views upon this first piece of agreement which was announced last week. After all, it is not usual for statesmen of the Commonwealth to come out in quite such categorical terms unless they feel very strongly about it. I will quote only one sentence from the statement:
    "Both Australia and New Zealand have had firm expectations that these special trade relations would continue. These they were well entitled to have."
    The agreement to which this statement relates concerns only manufactured goods from Canada, Australia and New

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    Zealand. I think that the Lord Privy Seal would agree that it was the easiest bit of the negotiations, in the sense that it was unlikely that the Lord Privy Seal would refuse altogether to carry out what were the dear implications of the Treaty of Rome in this connection; and of course, apart from transitional arrangements, he has accepted completely—let us have no illusion about it—what the Treaty of Rome requires. We have a reverse preference. We have taken the preferences, or we intend to take them, away from the three Commonwealth countries and we are to give the preferences in these goods to the members of the European Economic Community. No amount of talking can disguise this fact.
    I was not in the least surprised that the Lord Privy Seal made that agreement, but evidently Mr. Menzies and Mr. Marshall were deeply shocked. I venture to say that the reason that they were deeply shocked is that in the earlier stages there was too much disposition to smooth over the difficulties. For instance, the Prime Minister last July said, in the course of his speech in the debate, "It is vital not to damage the Commonwealth economically". What do the Canadians think about that today? Can it possibly be denied that the withdrawal of the preferences and the imposition of the reverse preference is damaging Canada economically? Of course it is.
    I am not saying that we can judge it on this single issue, but it is extremely foolish to give the impression that we can carry through the whole of this operation without tears and that there will be no difficulties whatever. Even the Lord Privy Seal, in the statement which he made on 10th October and which he quoted the other day, was guilty, I think, of what I can only describe as too smooth talk. The other day he referred to it. He said,
    "I said in my opening statement in Paris on 10th October that we recognised that indefinite and unlimited continuation of free entry over the whole of this field"—
    that is, industrial commodities—
    "might not be regarded as compatible with the development of the Common Market."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 31st May 1962; Vol. 660, c. 1602.]
    That is a classic understatement if ever there was one. He must have known quite well that he was bound to have
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    to concede this, and it would have been better had he frankly told the Commonwealth and everybody else at that stage, "Here is something which we clearly can do nothing about"—if those were his views, as I think they were, and as, indeed, they must have been.
    I hope that in future we shall try to avoid giving the impression that this is all not very difficult and that we shall be able to satisfy everybody, because we shall certainly not be able to satisfy everybody, and at the end of it we shall be faced with very difficult decisions and probably with very evenly balanced issues. Some people will take one view and some another, but it is no use imagining that we shall get the best of all worlds in every way; there is no possibility whatever of that being achieved.
    Sir Cyril Osborne: In considering the Canadian position, is it not fair to bear in mind that last year Canada sold to this country £350 million of goods and bought from us only £221 million of goods? That is vital in considering this relationship.
    Mr. Gaitskell: I do not think that that has very much to do with what I was saying, which was that it is as well to come clean about these issues because we shall have less trouble in the long run, and we should not have had that reaction from Mr. Menzies and Mr. Marshall if they had been publicly and clearly warned that this was likely to happen.
    Before I come to the main subject of the debate, I should like to ask some questions about the timetable. The Lord Privy Seal has told us that he still hopes to complete the negotiations for what might be described as a provisional agreement by the end of July.
    Mr. Heath: For the outline of a provisional agreement.
    Mr. Gaitskell: Very well. The Government have declined our request that they be guided in their decision by the Commonwealth Prime Ministers' Conference. The House will recall that we have asked them that they should agree to go into the Common Market only if the terms are broadly acceptable to the Commonwealth Prime Ministers' Conference, and we have been told by

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    them, "No, we cannot do that, because it must be our own decision".
    Very well. I should like to ask, will they give us an absolutely firm assurance that they themselves will not make up their mind—I mean the Government— until after the Commonwealth Prime Ministers' Conference is held? I have asked this once or twice at Question Time but have never had a completely categorical answer. This, at least, would go some way to reassuring the Commonwealth that the matter was not being judged in advance by the British Government.
    The second question which I should like to ask is, can we, the Members of the House, have plenty of time and all the information which we need before we reach our own decision? In particular, can we be assured that we shall be fully informed as to the reactions of the Commonwealth, and E.F.T.A. for that matter, and that there will be no attempt to rush this through, and that between the moment that any statement is made about this and any debate which takes place we shall have plenty of time for what is, after all, a momentous decision?
    With that, may I have an assurance that there is no question whatever of a Government commitment on this matter while the House is not sitting? The negotiations are taking place in the summer. Then we have the Prime Ministers' Conference. I think that we should not have any decision announced by the Government—I cannot deal with what they decide among themselves— until the House has returned after the Summer Recess.
    May I ask another question in this connection? What exactly is the relationship of the decision of the British Government to our E.F.T.A. commitment, because that commitment is complete, as the Lord Privy Seal knows? It amounts to saying, "We will decide together." If that is the case, how can the British Government be committed until they know what is the position of the other E.F.T.A. countries—and when are they likely to know that? After all, the Danish negotiations have only just begun, the Norwegian negotiations have not yet begun and the question of the neutrals has a long way to go before
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    it has been cleared up. Incidentally, does the Lord Privy Seal recall that the E.F.T.A. agreement provides for one year's notice, and therefore before we can in any way start, as it were, with the new situation, if we go into the Common Market, a year has to elapse before the E.F.T.A. arrangements can be superseded?
    As I have said, our main purpose in the debate is to seek clarification, but I must begin by very briefly restating our position. I agree with the Lord Privy Seal that whatever we do the Common Market will go on, and it is necessary to recognise this and not to discuss the problem as though we could choose whether the Six would be there or not. It will go on. We have to think of this as choosing between two alternatives— going in or staying out while the Common Market goes on. And in this we have to take into account both the political and economic considerations.
    For our part, we are satisfied that neither the case for going in nor the case against going in is so overwhelming that we should or could decide without knowing the conditions. In other words, we will not say, "We go in whatever the conditions are", as some of my hon. Friends and some hon. Members opposite might say. Others say, "Whatever the conditions we should have nothing to do with it". We do not take that view. We say that it must depend on the conditions and that our decision will turn upon that, and we must look at it as a whole.
    I will illustrate this by contesting two general arguments which have been put forward, one on each side of the controversy, both of which I believe to be quite wrong. Speaking, first, of those who favour the Common Market, I believe that the economic case for this has been grossly exaggerated, and I detected a good deal of that exaggeration in the Lord Privy Seal's speech today. I do not believe, nor do I think that there is any serious evidence to show it, that it is our economic salvation if we go in and an economic catastrophe if we stay out.
    Equally, I think that those who are opposed to the Common Market greatly exaggerate the political dangers of going in as the Treaty of Rome stands today. I must also say that I think they are

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    inclined greatly to exaggerate the possibilities of the Commonwealth being treated as a kind of parallel to the Common Market, a sort of alternative Common Market, because that is just not possible. We may as well rule out these extreme views.
    I want to take up, in particular, however, the economic case, because so much of the argument is based on this. It is a complicated argument, and I do not want to try to deal with it in detail. I would simply say that I do not know a single well-known experienced economist who takes the view that the arguments are all on one side. Indeed, almost all of those whose judgment I would trust take the view that there is practically nothing in it on economic grounds.
    I will quote only two, but one of them is Sir Donald MacDougall, who has been appointed by the Government to be deputy head of the new planning organisation. I will read what he said in an article, curiously enough, for the Rotterdamsche Bank:
    "Many of the arguments used in favour of joining the Community have been in economic terms but none, in my opinion, is compelling. We can, I believe, prosper and grow more rapidly than in the past whether or not we take this decisive step. It is even possible that entry might aggravate our economic difficulties."
    At the end of a long and impressive analysis of the various reasons why it is suggested that we ought to go into the Common Market, he says,
    "If the foregoing analysis is correct there is no really compelling economic argument for Britain's joining unless it is thought that without being exposed to the blast of competition from the continent she will never put her house in order."
    I am sure that a great many of us would not accept that British industry is in such a parlous state that that is the only possible alternative. The other economist is Professor Meade, of Cambridge, whose pamphlet I have here—and it is fairly well known and very interesting, too.
    What struck me about both these articles is that they come to precisely the same conclusions. Let me take the House through the argument. First, we get the impression that we must go in because the Common Market is dynamic and growing and has expanded fast in recent years. It is true that the rate of
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    growth of those countries has been much greater than ours, but it does not follow that that was because of the Common Market, and it is creating a wholly false impression to speak as though this were the case. Certainly we could not have a more objectively-minded person than Professor Meade, who basically is favourable to going into Europe, but he is quite categorical about that. Moreover, since all these countries have not had the same rate of progress, it does not mean if we go in that we go at their rate. We may go at a similar rate to that of Belgium, which is rather less than ours.
    Consider the position in respect of markets. If we have no tariffs against us in Europe, we gain there, but does anybody suppose that we shall retain our preferences in Commonwealth markets? Is this very likely? Is it not fairly obvious that if they are faced with a loss of preferences in our markets, the Commonwealth will be obliged to bargain for themselves with other countries.
    Equally, at the moment we have preferences in E.F.T.A., and we shall lose those. It is true that if the E.F.T.A. countries come in with us, we shall still have free trade with them. It may be summed up like this: we might get a gain of preference of 10 to 15 per cent. over one-sixth of our exports and lose 10 par cent. over one-third of our exports. If anything, the advantages are probably less than the disadvantages.
    Then we come to the argument, which the Lord Privy Seal mentioned, about large-scale production, specialisation and all the rest of it. There is something in this argument and I do not dispute that, but it can be enormously exaggerated. People speak as though we are either exporting wholly to Europe or not at all to Europe. Our exports go all over the world and we have fairly large markets as it is. To suppose that specialisation and large-scale production are possible only if we go into Europe simply does not fit the facts, and no other country outside Europe is talking in those terms. No other country is terrified. The Americans are frightened of discrimination, though they are prepared to put up even with that, but they are not using all of these arguments.
    Furthermore, most people agree that whatever the long-run case may be, in

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    the short run the balance of payments position is likely to be fairly difficult after we have got into Europe. That may be something which we have to face, but do not let us forget that if we have to clamp on a lot more restrictions all the arguments about growth will look a bit different.
    Then there is this business of the shock of competition. If it is thought that British industry is suffering from lack of competition, it is hard to understand how it has not benefited from the diminution in tariffs and quotas and so on in the last few years, a diminution which has been quite considerable. In any event, we do not have to go into Europe to provide more competition if that is what is wanted. It can be done by tariff concessions negotiated through G.A.T.T.
    I want to make it quite plain that I am not saying that the balance of argument is against our going in. My own view, and I am on record as having said this, is that in the long run the economic argument may be favourable, largely because of the attraction of foreign and particularly American investment as a result. But it will not do to speak, as the Lord Privy Seal did, as though the assumption were that if we go in we are prosperous, and if we do not we are not.
    Mr. Heath: I do not want to interrupt the right hon. Gentleman, because I think that he is trying to state the case very fairly. But, having described the possible advantages of a large market, I said that none of those advantages was automatic. At the most they are opportunities. I said that quite specifically and that is the position.
    Mr. Gaitskell: I took down the Lord Privy Seal's words and he spoke of "only a prosperous Britain "and" only a competitive Britain "in relation to going into the Common Market, as though we could not do these things if we did not go in. I beg him to appreciate that I am saying this with a very serious purpose in mind. It has been a grave mistake on the part of the Government —and I think that they did this largely because they were panicked into it last summer by the economic crisis of the time—to exaggerate this argument. It
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    misleads the Commonwealth if it is said to Commonwealth countries that we are going in because, unless we go in, we shall not be able to go on buying vast amounts from them. In other words, this is the same argument as the argument about a prosperous and competitive Britain. That would be all very well if it were certain, but it is one of the big questions in the whole argument.
    Secondly, I can think of nothing worse from the point of view of our bargaining position than to give the impression that we are desperate, that we have to go in and that it would be catastrophic if we stayed out. But time and time again Ministers have spoken in that sort of language. They have even brought it in as a kind of political rescue operation. I think that it is a peculiar one to choose, but in any case, even if it were a good argument, it would be a very bad thing to do in relation to the negotiations.
    Mr. Norman Cole (Bedfordshire, South): Will the right hon. Gentleman relate this very good point which he is making about our not showing our desperation, in other words, not giving away our tactical position, to what he said earlier about the Lord Privy Seal having said that we were prepared to damage Commonwealth trade so that we could go in? Surely both are tactical weapons and both should be kept to be fired later?
    Mr. Gaitskell: The hon. Gentleman may have a point and I concede that. But I think that my point is much more important. What he says, however, may be a fair answer to what I said earlier.
    The political arguments of those who are opposed to the Common Market are equally wrong. The Lord Privy Seal has pointed out that the Treaty of Rome does not carry with it strictly political implications and, as I said, the Commonwealth is not a true parallel of the Common Market. The point is that if we do not go in, it is not a question of building up some other Common Market, but of carrying on, and carrying on in what will not necessarily be a disastrous situation, especially on the basis of the greater growth of free trade in the world as a whole through the Kennedy proposals and the negotiations following them.

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    I come now to the conditions. We have laid down five conditions—the Commonwealth, British agriculture to be safeguarded, our obligations to E.F.T.A. to be carried out, to be free to continue to conduct our own foreign policy as now, and to be free to carry out the economic planning which we think is necessary. I do not propose to deal with all those. I shall concentrate entirely on the Commonwealth and E.F.T.A., leaving my right hon. and hon. Friends to deal in detail with agriculture when we have heard what the Minister of Agriculture has to say, because, as the right hon. Gentlemon knows, this is a most complicated subject and it is more appropriate that it should be dealt with after he has spoken. My right hon. Friend the Member for Huyton (Mr. H. Wilson) and my right hon. Friend the Member for Belper (Mr. G. Brown) will be dealing with the economic union and planning and matters of that kind.
    As the Lord Privy Seal did, I come straight away to the Commonwealth issue, and I agree with him that it has to be broken down into a number of different topics and I shall broadly, although not exactly, follow him. To begin with, when we are talking about the problems of reconciling Commonwealth interests, we must be clear that we are talking about what is a political issue. If we cannot satisfy the Commonwealth on this, we suffer political damage. It is the Commonwealth economic interests and not our own with which we are concerned. Some hon. Members opposite may disagree with me, but the key issue is not that of any particular system. I do not feel that it particularly matters what the system is. What matters is the effect on the countries of the Commonwealth—how are they damaged, or, if it is the case, how are they benefited.
    I begin as the Lord Privy Seal did with the manufactured products of Australia, New Zealand and Canada, about which I have already said something. I said that this was a strict application of the principle of the Common Market, and so it is—reverse preference. The only concessions which the Lord Privy Seal has obtained were for the transitional period. He did obtain something in that respect, but it is not a great deal. In that connection I should like him or one of his right hon.
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    Friends to elucidate what he hopes to get from these reviews under G.A.T.T. which are supposed to take place from time to time. Is this a serious proposition, or is it one of those convenient phrases which is thrown in to try to hide what is really a fairly difficult situation?
    I cannot say that I am surprised by the reaction of the Prime Minister of Australia, and the Deputy Prime Minister of New Zealand. Of course they feel that this proposal is damaging, Canada much more so. I shall say only that I do not regard this issue as a particularly serious matter simply because the quantities involved are not very great. Not even Canada can say that this is serious or, to use the phrase of Mr. Menzies, that it will do critical damage. It always was—and I said so earlier—the easiest of the various jobs which have to be done.
    I have nothing to say so far about raw materials except to urge on the Lord Privy Seal the importance of this matter, because raw materials are the basis of costs and if we have to pay duties on raw materials our competitive ability in the rest of the world will be affected. Incidentally, Canada is very much affected by this issue, what with newsprint and wood pulp and aluminium and its concern over those would be as great as, if not greater than, over its manufactured products.
    I now come to the question of tropical products. If it were not for the French overseas territories, the former colonies of France, and the peculiar relationship which has been developed between them and France, personally I would have said that free entry for tropical products was the best solution, by and large, although there may be a few exceptions—world-wide free entry. However, I know that at present that is asking for a great deal, so I will put our proposals a little lower.
    First, we could not possibly accept discrimination in favour of the Common Market against the products of our own former African Colonies. I hope that that is absolutely clear. Secondly, this is not limited to Africa because the Caribbean, the West Indian, products are similar and must be covered equally with those of our former African territories and Commonwealth African territories.

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    There is the further point to which the Lord Privy Seal referred—the danger if there is parity, as it were, between Africa and the West Indies, whatever the origin may be, of discrimination against Latin America, about which the United States and others are very properly concerned. Here, again, one returns to the argument for complete freedom of entry. But if that is impossible, there ought to be parity for the Commonwealth—I see no logical argument against this —in respect of all those products for which preferences are granted to the former French colonies.
    Finally, I hope that the Lord Privy Seal will try to get rid of the associate status altogether. I realise that at the moment it carries with it not only preferences, but substantial sums of aid. But it should be possible for the aid to be provided in other ways without the implication that, in order to claim it or the preference, one has to become an associate member, with the political overtones which, at any rate for some of the African States, might be involved. As the Lord Privy Seal knows very well, some of our Commonwealth members might not want to join as associate members, and it would be a terrible pity and totally unnecessary if Nigeria and Ghana, for instance, were for those reasons debarred from preference and aid which would otherwise be open to them. I cannot help feeling that the whole concept of associate status in former colonies is somewhat out of date now. It was originally introduced before the countries concerned had their freedom, and if we could get away from that concept—and I fancy that that might well be the view of the French territories themselves in due course if perhaps not yet—it would be a good thing.
    Taking these things in order of increasing difficulty, I pass now to manufactured goods from Asia. All of us in the West and all of us from wealthier countries have a special responsibility in this respect. It is no use talking glibly about being keen on the development of India and other countries in Asia and Africa and saying that we will help and that we are in favour of so much of our national income going there if we then say, "But, my goodness, if
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    you produce anything, we will not buy it". That will not do. It is no use telling those countries that we agree that they should industrialise if we then say, "Sorry, chums, we are not going to take any of the industrial products when you have produced them".
    The whole of their economic progress turns on their being able to develop markets for their industrial products. I am well aware that we have a rather good record in this matter. Leaving textiles on one side—and I will come to that later, and that position is not as bad as may be supposed—when all is said and done we have had free entry for these goods from the Commonwealth wherever they came from. We have had these special quotas of textiles, about which there is still a great deal of concern, but that must be expected if there are sudden changes and sudden movements. But at least we can claim to have been far more inclined to take manufactured goods from the underdeveloped countries than our friends in the E.E.C. have been.
    One of the main points here is to try to arrange with them some system whereby, at least as a minimum, the kind of voluntary quota arrangements which we have made with the three Asian territories of Pakistan, India and Hong Kong are also made by the other members of the E.E.C. This, incidentally, would relieve us a little of the burden— and it is a burden for Lancashire— which we carry in this at the moment. I see no reason why we should not be pretty tough about this when we come to the negotiations.
    I suppose that I shall be told that there must be tariffs against these goods because otherwise it would be inconsistent with Common Market arrangements. Personally, I would not worry too much about that, as compared with quotas, as long as the tariffs are relatively low. Quotas are always worse because they leave the wretched exporter with no chance. At least if he has a tariff he can, if it is not too high, by making himself efficient, get over it. I was glad to have the assurance from the Lord Privy Seal that we are not content simply to say to India, "You can have your quota. Of course there will be a tariff on it and you can make whatever arrangements you like. That is your

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    affair." That will not be good enough. I hope that we shall continue to negotiate on behalf of these countries right up to the end.
    What the Common Market does on this will be something of a test case. The Lord Privy Seal said how splendidly outward-looking the Common Market countries were. If they are, he should have no difficulty in negotiating a satisfactory agreement on this part of the problem.
    Finally, on temperate foodstuffs, as has been said this is the nub of the problem. These are vital commodities developed in Australia, New Zealand and Canada for the British market, and we all know perfectly well that it is no exaggeration to say that out of these negotiations if they went wrong and the Government agreed to certain things, which I sincerely hope they will not, New Zealand could be literally ruined. We cannot have that. We would all object to that. Australia would be badly hit too.
    At the moment we have free entry here, and of course subsidies for British agriculture. Let us have no misunderstanding about it, however—the basic E.E.C. proposals are pretty frightening. They are that there should be a so called threshold price which is above the target price within the E.E.C, and then an import levy which is sufficiently high at all time to carry the difference between that so-called threshold price, the price at which a thing can be sold, and the import price. It means, I under stand, that in effect we are being asked, and I think that I am right, though I know that these things are very complicated——
    Mr. R. H. Turton (Thirsk and Malton): The threshold price is lower than the target price.
    Mr. Gaitskell: All right. Let us say the target price. There is a price in the home market and an import price, and the levy is to bridge the difference between them so as to make it impossible for these products coming from outside the Common Market ever to compete at lower prices with products of the Common Market itself. Everybody in the Chamber is nodding, so I hope that that is all right. I shall not go into
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    too much detail, as I have already warned the Minister of Agriculture. I should have thought that this was pretty intolerable. First, British consumers have to pay higher prices. I know that this can be exaggerated and I am not putting it as a main objection, although it is not to be entirely disregarded.
    Secondly, with regard to quantities, all that the Commonwealth, under this system, would be allowed would be to make up whatever difference there might be, at whatever price is fixed, between the total demand and the supply from the E.E.C. countries. They are more or less saying, "We will let you have a bit in if we want it", but we cannot call that by any description fair competition. It is the toughest kind of protection that one can imagine. It is tougher than anything we have done or the Europeans do today. When on top of that we are expected to import higher cost food from the Continent and, in so far as we bring in the Commonwealth foodstuffs, to pay a levy the process of which go for the benefit of European agriculture, then honestly I think that this is really too steep altogether. Let us have no nonsense about the moral idealism involved in this. This is strict protectionism for European agriculture. I know that we protect our own agriculture, but I do not think that we have ever done anything quite as bad as this. I hope, therefore, that the Government are not contemplating, even in the long run, agreeing to anything of this sort. They really must resist it.
    Moreover, I do not think that a temporary solution here is good enough. I do not want to prejudge too much. I am aware of the danger of doing that, but we could not have a position in which we say to New Zealand and Australia, "It is all right. You can carry on for a bit. We will go on buying from you. You can have a levy-free quota for a period but, after that, chums, you are out." We cannot keep the Commonwealth together on that basis. We may keep the Commonwealth countries together for a few years but we may not keep them even for that long, because they will look for other markets all the time.
    A temporary solution, therefore, will not do here, and I say that we should

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    have information about what the Lord Privy Seal meant by "comparable outlets". He told us he meant "access" and not "sales", but the whole thing turns on the terms of access and until we know that I do not see that we are much further forward. The Lord Privy Seal said that we should have temporary arrangements and after that a series of international marketing schemes. I have heard all that before, and I am doubtful whether it means a great deal. Anybody who has had experience knows the difficulties.
    I am rather in favour of these international schemes. We tried to arrange some in the simplest commodities— rubber and tin—when we on this side of the House were in office, in order to try and get more stable prices. But how we can get international guarantees covering butter, cheese, beef and that kind of thing is beyond me. I hope we shall not be fobbed off with a meaningless phrase which is meant to disguise the fact—and let us not beat about the bush—that we are selling the Commonwealth down the river on this issue.
    We should say to the E.E.C. countries that if they want to sell more here, as they do—and this is one of our strongest bargaining points—they must take more from the Commonwealth. This is one of the basic principles that should be followed. I commend to the Lord Privy Seal Professor Meade's suggestion of quotas not fixed but related to and growing with European consumption. That may be a possible way out.
    I turn now to E.F.T.A. and I want to remind the House in particular of the very far-reaching commitments we have here. The Lord Privy Seal read the original Motion, and I think that I must read it. It is worth reading. It says:
    "Ministers agreed that … the members of E.F.T.A. should co-ordinate their actions and remain united throughout the negotiations. Ministers resolved that the European Free Trade Association, the obligations created by the Convention between the members, and the momentum towards integration within the association, would be maintained at least until satisfactory arrangements have been worked out in negotiations to meet the various legitimate interests of all members of E.F.T.A., and thus enable them "—
    let the House please note—
    "all to participate from the same date in an integrated European market. They agreed that
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    a partial solution which created a new economic division within Western Europe could not in any circumstances be regarded as satisfactory."
    That is pretty flat and we are bound by it. I hope that we shall stand by it. It is justified overwhelmingly by the close association we have with the Scandinavian States. We have had it for years and it is valuable to us, and we like it. Secondly, our trade with E.F.T.A. is 13 per cent. of total exports, as against 16 per cent. with the Common Market, and it is therefore extremely important. Thirdly, and last but not least, if we go in without any of the E.F.T.A. countries our voting position in practice within the Council of Ministers is likely to be gravely affected. Therefore, we must stand by them.
    It may be said that Norway and Denmark will come in if we go in. I hope so. Then there are the neutrals. The Lord Privy Seal dismissed this question too easily. He must know very well that the Americans are throwing all their weight at the moment against the association of the neutrals with the E.E.C, and especially against the association of Switzerland and Sweden.
    I think that this is a silly point of view. I think that they are foolish to take this line. We want these countries to be with us. We do not want them isolated, and it is confusing a political and defence set up—because they happen to be neutrals—with what is basically an economic set up. It is not proposed that they should be full members. But why should not they have economic arrangements which enable them to participate in other ways?
    I should like to add this argument, which I think is of some importance. If Sweden does not come in, if the Six turn down her application for association, is it really likely that Norway and Denmark will come in? I assure the House that according to my information the Norwegian Government would not expect, even if they tried, to carry through the referendum which they would have to have on any proposal for them to come in without Sweden. The reason is simple. They would have to erect tariff barriers against Sweden. This therefore is of great importance to us, because it is greatly in our interest that Norway and Denmark should come in.

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    I want an assurance that pending all this we will keep E.F.T.A. going. Do let us keep something in reserve. I know that it is the custom to say that it does not really matter, that it is not important, but I think that it is of some importance. It affects a lot of our trade, and we may be glad to have it if the negotiations do not proceed very well.
    I should like now to say a word about the legal and constitutional position. I have never been much impressed with the argument about loss of sovereignty, One always loses sovereignty if one signs a treaty. There is nothing peculiar about that, but there is a difference in one respect, and a very important one. If we sign the Treaty of Rome, we not only bind ourselves to do certain things; we bind ourselves to accept certain decisions subsequently made, notably majority decisions, because to accept unanimous decisions does not matter since one has to participate in them.
    Here I must ask a question. Is it the case that regulations made under the Treaty of Rome by the Council of Ministers are to be automatically law in this country without them ever being considered by this House? I am not saying that this is necessarily a crucial point but it is necessary to know where we stand because if this is to happen it is a complete departure from any precedent. It is not necessarily fatal, because one has to remember that the other countries are in the same position, and some of these regulations about fair competition may be to our advantage. All the same, it is a big difference if we are now to have bits of out law made for us by majority decisions of the Council of Ministers.
    The main point is the enormous importance of the voting arrangements in the Council of Ministers. Take, for instance, all the agricultural matters which fall to be settled by a qualified majority, or the question of any possible foreign exchange crisis where we wanted to reimpose restrictions. It goes to the Council of Ministers which by a qualified majority can tell us not to do it.
    The present position is that France, Italy and Germany have four votes each. Belgium and Holland have two, and Luxembourg has one. One-third vetoes. Therefore, France plus Belgium can veto
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    anything—one Power plus either Holland or Belgium.
    When we come in, supposing we get four votes, and supposing, which may be optimistic, that Norway and Denmark, and Ireland for that matter, get two each. That is another ten votes, make a total of 27. If we apply the two-thirds majority to that one has to get nine votes on one's side to veto. One does not get it with Norway, or even with Norway and Denmark. One needs at least one other country, Luxembourg for one, or one of the others for two. One cannot veto unless one has, in practical terms, three other countries on one's side.
    I hope that the House realises the enormous importance of this and I should like to hear the views of the Government on it. This is a matter on which I should be very loath to give way without ensuring that the right of veto remains one large and one small Power, as it is today. We might get some help on this from General de Gaulle because I do not suppose that he would like to be overridden either. This is something at which the Government ought to look.
    On the constitutional side, I am not going into the considerations of the Fouchet Committee, the Bonn declaration, and all that. I am glad to say that we have not yet committed ourselves to anything here. But undeniably those who are enthusiastic about European federation will use the peculiar independent position of the Commission to lead on to the argument that therefore it must be put under Parliamentary control and that therefore there must be a Federal Parliament. I am sure that the Lord Privy Seal has heard this argument. I heard it last week, and I put forward a proposition here. I am all in favour of Parliamentary control of national Governments, but if it comes to the kind of set up that we are going to have there, while I do not like the independent position of the Commission, it ought to be, not under a Federal Parliament, but under a stronger Council of Ministers. This would fall in with the British tradition of putting civil servants under Ministers. So I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will follow this advice.
    Finally, on the basic political issue, we have to ask ourselves a question—in or out? What are the alternatives?

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    The Rome Treaty brings with it no commitment. Right. So if we go in on present terms we can veto any further advance towards federation. I was a little worried about some of the phraseology used by the right hon. Gentleman, because he spoke with such enthusiasm about greater political union in Europe. Would not he agree that if it came to European federation, to a European Federal State, that would mean the end of the Commonwealth? I cannot conceive of it going on in those circumstances.
    There must be a point at which a political move of this kind could be so dangerous to the Commonwealth as really to be something we could not contemplate. I will be frank with the House. For my part I do not want any more political moves at this stage. I think that we should stand where we are. I hope that the Government will make it plain that they are not enthusiastic about any swift move in this direction. But if we stay out, there are certain dangers. After 10 or 20 years we may find that the Commonwealth as we know it today, not through any fault of our own, changes, declines, and does not count in the way that it does today. This might happen and we might find ourselves excluded from a tough, strong, European State, a little island off Europe with nothing else. This is the risk, the danger.
    There is another risk. If we stay out and the E.F.T.A. countries stay out, as they will, with the danger of the Common Market countries becoming a Federal State, certainly after General de Gaulle has ceased to prevent it, or if he were to change his mind, there would be a greater danger of this State being inward-looking, despite what the Lord Privy Seal said. There would be a greater danger of it being indifferent, not interested in the rest of the world, nationalistic in outlook, a third force wanting its own nuclear weapons and wanting to break away. The effect of this on the Western Alliance could be serious.
    As things are, if we went in we could probably stop that happening, but on the one condition only, that as we go in we maintain our links with the Commonwealth. This is essential. If we go in breaking those links, breaking them
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    with E.F.T.A., our capacity for doing what I think we might be able to do in Europe would be enormously reduced. Let us be under no illusions about this. We could destroy the Commonwealth in two ways. Either by a political commitment which went much too far, or by making an agreement which, to use Mr. Menzies' words, did critical economic damage to the Commonwealth.
    I do not often quote myself, but I cannot think of anything better to end this speech than to say what I said at the end of my broadcast the other day:
    "To go in on good terms would, I believe, be the best solution to this difficult problem, and let us hope we can get them. Not to go in would be a pity, but it would not be a catastrophe. To go in on bad terms which really meant the end of the Commonwealth would be a step which I think we would regret all our lives, and for which history would not forgive us."
    6.0 p.m.
    Mr, Aubrey Jones: The basic position underlying the speech just made by the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition is, I think, substantially the same as the position underlying the speech of my right hon. Friend the Lord Privy Seal. In other words, the right hon. Gentleman favours an application for entry into the European Community, subject to certain conditions being met. By conditions I think he means—certainly I mean—not that we should not face change, but that, in facing change, we should secure for ourselves and our associates in E.F.T.A. and the Commonwealth terms not less fair than the Six secured for themselves when they undertook, the act of change which constituted the new Community.
    I agree with this basic position. I agree also with both speakers so far that we are very far from knowing whether or not those conditions are likely to be realised. In this respect, I agree with both the previous speakers. Where, however, I would differ from the right hon. Gentleman is in this. I would question the wisdom, from a national point of view, of the emphasis which he placed on the conditions and the difficulties, and I would question his wisdom for this reason. Since I am in favour of the application to join the Community, I naturally want the negotiations to succeed, but, even had I not

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    been in favour of the application for entry, I could not but note the fact that my country has entered upon certain negotiations, and were those negotiations now to fail, or to spin out endlessly without coming to any conclusion, nationally we should have suffered a considerable rebuff.
    I want the conditions to be realised, but, paradoxically enough, I think that we should stand a better chance of realising the conditions, not by elaborating them, but by indicating to the Community what our basic attitude to the Community is. If our attitude to the Community is judged by the Community to be sympathetic, I think the chances are that the negotiations will succeed. If our attitude is judged by the Community to be unsympathetic, then, in my view, they will fail. The real importance of this debate is that what is said today will determine in part the course of these negotiations, and, in this sense, each one of us taking part in the debate is an ambassador for his country.
    If I am right in this judgment, I think it requires that we should dwell today, not on the conditions but on the fundamentals, to use the term adopted by my right hon. Friend. It requires that we restate the reasons why we have applied for entry, and describe the rôle which we see our country playing in the Community of which we should like to form part. In my judgment, this is all the more necessary because there has been a certain equivocal air over-hanging our application for entry into the European Community.
    Rightly or wrongly, one has been told —at least, one was told before this last week-end when the Prime Minister went to France—that General de Gaulle is the great obstacle to our entry into the Community. One is also told that General de Gaulle favours a loose, and not a tight, arrangement within Europe. Therefore, we are inclined to say, implicitly if not explicitly, that that is what we want, too, a loose arrangement. By intimating this, in my judgment, we do nothing to win favour with General de Gaulle, but we do cast doubts in the minds of those in Europe who want to see us as members of the Community and make their support of us half-hearted rather than whole-hearted.
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    As an illustration, when my right hon. Friend made his statement on 10th April indicating that, at a certain stage, quite reasonably, we should like to be consulted on the talks for a new political organisation now going on, his request was received with a certain amount of suspicion, and that suspicion hardly constituted a happy prelude to the negotiations. In other words, I suggest that we should speak, not to those in Europe who do not want us in, but to those who do want us in, and it was in this respect, it seemed to me, that the speech of the right hon. Gentleman fell short.
    I can only give my own personal reasons Why I am in favour of my country seeking entry to the European Community, and I am speaking entirely for myself. I am in favour of my country seeking entry into the European Community because I see in the Community an experiment of such enormous economic and political significance that not only can we not ignore it, but, as a country which has played a very considerable part in international affairs, we have a duty to further this experiment. I should like to say a word or two first about the economic significance of the Community, and, a little later, its political significance.
    First, its economic significance. As my right hon. Friend said, the Common Market is more than a free trade area or even a customs union. Its real significance is that it recognises that, having lowered the barriers to trade, one must do something more. One must try to meet in common all the resulting problems. For instance, the unemployment which may arise in an industry or an area which cannot stand up to the resulting competition; the problem of the balance of payments which may arise for a whole country which is unable to stand up to the resulting competition; and the problem of concerting full employment policies so that one country does not take advantage of lowered barriers to export its own depression. This is utterly new and novel, and is away beyond our original concept of a European free trade area. This is a superior concept, and it was for this reason that I think it was right that our concept of a European free trade area should give way to it.
    I think that the right hon. Gentleman under-estimated the importance of this.

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    It is for this reason that I would rate the chance of growth and the chance of a more productive reallocation of resources as being greater in the Common Market than in a free trade area of comparable size. Like the right hon. Gentleman, I do not regard the growth that has taken place in the Common Market as being entirely due to the Common Market itself. I think that one of the important reasons is that continental countries in times of boom have been able to draw on continuing supplies of labour, something which has been denied to us, but I think that these supplies of labour are coming to an end and that there will be a tendency for growth in the Common Market to slow down. Despite that, and, to use a phrase which will be familiar to the right hon. Gentleman, other things being equal, the chances of growth are higher in a community undertaking this form of common action than in a free trade area of comparable size. Of course, I need hardly emphasise that the key to a successful incomes policy is growth and not mere containment of incomes.
    That is, in my view, the economic significance of the Community. I turn to what I think is the greater significance, the political significance. It lies, it seems to me, in this, that the other international organisations of which we form part, the United Nations, N.A.T.O., etc., are all associations of independent sovereign States, and in any such association any proposal for action, though it may have been born originally in some neutral secretariat, is the responsibility of one Power. It, therefore, runs the risk of being identified with vested interests of that one Power. Action is possible only if there is a unanimous endorsement of the proposal. Everybody has to agree with it—the so-called rule of unanimity.
    I think it is self-evident that the capacity of an international organisation of this kind to accomplish something is extremely limited and it is no surprise, I think, that all the glistening proposals for international economic and political co-operation which were born on the morrow of the war now lie dust-laden on the shelves.
    It is in this respect that I suggest that the European Community constitutes quite a new departure. As the right hon.
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    Gentleman said, the initiative in proposing action in the Community stems from an independent body, a neutral body, the Commission. The proposal, being impartial, stands, therefore, a better chance of acceptance, and action on the proposal requires, as he said, not unanimity, but a weighted majority.
    Of these two things, the origination of the proposal in an independent body, and then action on approval by a weighted majority, the more important, to my mind, is the first, the independent origin, and not the second. The fact of the independent origin makes a proposal more acceptable than it would otherwise be, and there is, therefore, a better chance of securing unanimous acceptance. In other words, what we see in the Community is a nice balancing of relationships between sovereign States and an independent body.
    Mr. Maurice Edelman: The right hon. Gentleman made a distinction between war-time and postwar bodies such as the O.E.E.C. which planned by consent between sovereign States and the Commission which is going to exercise authority through its own initiative, but is it not the case that bodies like the O.E.E.C. were in fact bodies which planned and acted with the adherence of units which came together unanimously for a common purpose, whereas the exercise by the Commission of its functions would be to impose on the subject members of the association autocratic decisions which they may not accept?
    Mr. Jones: With respect, I think the hon. Gentleman is going too far. The constitutional position, as I understand it, is that an independent body takes the initiative in proposing action, but action does not follow unless the proposal secures a weighted majority. This is not the exercise of authority. It is a delicate balancing of relations. I do not deny, of course, that this kind of constitution gives rise to problems—the problem, for instance, to whom is the independent body responsible? That was the question the right hon. Gentleman mentioned. Without going into that, the essential point surely is—and it is an undeniable one—that the capacity for joint action in an organisation of this kind is greater than in a mere association

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    of sovereign States. This is why the European Community is able to take joint action on all the problems resulting from lower tariff barriers, as I mentioned earlier. This is why I suggest the European Community is an experiment of great political significance.
    Now our problem is, of course, that the Commonwealth is not an organisation of this kind. The Commonwealth is an association of independent sovereign States, more closely co-operating than other such associations, because we are partakers in a common history; but none, the less the Commonwealth organisation is a loose organisation of co-operation between independent sovereign bodies. The question with which we are faced, the question which the right hon. Gentleman posed towards the end of his speech, is this. If we enter a tight organisation such as the European Community, will it mean our increasing detachment from the looser organisation of the Commonwealth? It is this which, I think, many of my right hon. and hon. Friends, and I myself— indeed, most of us, all of us—find the disturbing thought.
    I do not pretend that the reconciliation of these two things is going to be easy, and I agree entirely with the right hon. Gentleman that a mistake has been made in the past in suggesting that the reconciliation may be easy. Reconciliation is something which we have to look to very conscientiously and attentively, but despite my consciousness of the difficulty of this reconciliation I cannot conclude that we should not apply for entry into the European Community. We cannot, just because we are the leaders of a loose association, say that we should not on that account enter into a tighter organisation. That would be tantamount to saying that we in this country cannot enter any more progressive international organisation than a mere co-operative association of independent sovereign bodies. This in effect— and this is in fact what the right hon. Gentleman was suggesting at the end of his speech—would be citing the Commonwealth as a bar to any progress and any advance in international organisation. I cannot think that would be writing a creditable page in the history of the Commonwealth.
    This, if hon. Members like, is the negative reason why in the name of
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    Commonwealth I am in favour of my country's applying for entry into European Community. But there is also, in my view, a positive reason why in the name of Commonwealth we should apply for entry into the Community. The purpose of the kind of constitution which I have tried to describe is, of course, to forge a new political unit in Europe, but we are no longer in the eighteenth century when it was possible to forge, isolated from the rest of the world, a new political unit in the North American Continent. Today, Europe is enmeshed with the rest of the world, and the technique—and this is the point I want to make—which lies at the heart of the European community can be extended outside the Community to solve a whole range of Commonwealth—indeed, world—problems. This, I think, is the future rôle of the Commonwealth, and by undertaking this rôle we should, I think, be opening a new chapter in Commonwealth history and providing a new Commonwealth contribution to the solution of world problems.
    I will try to clarify what I mean. We cannot, of course, make the Commonwealth part of Europe because the Commonwealth is too diverse and because of its diversity it has not been able to carry integration as far as it is being carried on the European continent, but we can envisage relations between the Commonwealth and the European Community, a community of which, I hope, we shall form a part, in two phases. In the first phase I see no reason why, as the consolidation of Europe proceeds, we should not be able to promote between the Commonwealth and Europe the same kind of association between independent sovereign bodies as exists between the United Kingdom and the rest of the Commonwealth. In other words, there is no reason why we should not, for instance, have joint meetings of Community and Commonwealth trade and finance Ministers or, for that matter, joint meetings of Community and Commonwealth Prime Ministers. True, this would be a new departure in the history of the Commonwealth. We should be extending some of the practices of the Commonwealth outside the Commonwealth, outside the partakers in the common Commonwealth history, but there is no reason why we should not attempt it.

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    I would also go beyond this. I would suggest that in a later phase we could apply to Commonwealth and world problems this technique which I have described as unique to the European Community, the technique, in other words, of acting on proposals which are initiated by an independent body.
    I wish to give two such examples. Take the question of temperate foodstuffs. We in this country maintain agriculture and feel forced to maintain agriculture as part of the Welfare State. We try to maintain agricultural incomes roughly at the level of industrial incomes. The countries of the Continent do the same and we both subsidise our agriculture. Australia subsidises her agriculture. So does Canada and other Dominions who are our kith and kin, and so does the United States. We all have conflicting interests. We all indulge in subsidised competitive and, I suggest, mutually ruinous surpluses.
    How on earth are we to extricate ourselves from this problem? Merely by an association of sovereign independent States? Is there not a better chance for action on this problem if the proposal comes in the first instance from an independent commission having power to make proposals, even if it has at first no power of surveillance over the execution of those proposals? Do we not stand a better chance of tackling the problem by applying the European technique?
    Take another problem, the underdeveloped part of the world. This is one respect in which, unfortunately, Marx has been vindicated. It is no longer true, as Marx suggested, that within one country the rich are getting richer and the poor poorer, but that is true of the world as a whole and of the Commonwealth. In the world as a whole, while rich countries become richer, the poor countries remain poor and are becoming relatively poorer. That is overwhelmingly a Commonwealth problem. In other words, the problem of redistributive justice with which the party opposite has identified itself has been pushed out and is transposed to quite a different plane—the international plane.
    I read in one of the Sunday newspapers at the weekend—I have forgotten
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    which it was—a report that the Treasury looks forward this summer to an improvement in the terms of trade which would better our balance of payments position. That is all very well, but do we realise that every time we look forward to an improvement in the terms of trade we aggravate the problem of poverty in the under-developed countries? Do we realise that every time the competitive industrial countries of Western Europe look forward to an improvement in the terms of trade it aggravates the problem of world poverty many times?
    How are we to deal with this problem? Surely it requires that the industrial countries of the West should do something terribly difficult. It requires that we should deliberately turn the terms of trade against ourselves. The problem requires that the jostling competitive economies of the West should deliberately turn the terms of trade against themselves and follow a concerted trading policy. Are we going to do this purely by co-operation between sovereign States? Do we not stand a better chance if we invoke the technique of the independent body, the European technique, and get an independent body to make proposals even though we do not in the first instance give it authority to supervise the action?
    I am trying to make a two-fold point. First, I am trying to suggest that it is not what is happening in Europe, in the European Community, which is jeopardising the neat frontiers of the Commonwealth. It is the fact that the basic problems of the Commonwealth transcend the Commonwealth. They are world problems, and in facing them on a world-wide scale inevitably we are driven to fuse the Commonwealth into a larger structure and a wider frame-work. I will use an analogy which I hope will not make people too indignant. Just as the march of technology by making it more difficult, if not impossible, to provide for our own defence is compelling us to merge the national loyalty to which we have become accustomed into a wider loyalty. This tension, this tug, between change and the attachments of our hearts, the attachments with which we have grown up, it is this which goes to the core of our great political problems.

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    The problems of the Commonwealth transcend the Commonwealth. Secondly, these problems which go beyond the Commonwealth stand a better chance of solution if we go beyond the mere intergovernmental co-operation which the Commonwealth as we know it represents. It is for these reasons that I do not think that in the name of Commonwealth we should shy away from the European concept and try to protect the Commonwealth concept as we have known it. I think that what we have to do is to embrace the European concept and, in embracing it, to accept the challenge which it poses to our political inventiveness and ingenuity. In other words, we have deliberately to set out to use the European technique to solve Commonwealth, and indeed world, problems which the Commonwealth alone in itself cannot solve.
    I concede, and I hope most other people would concede, that over the past ten years, I am sad to say, Europeans have seized the initiative over us in giving birth to new economic and political ideas. In applying for entry to the European community, I suggest that we are belatedly adjusting ourselves to this fact, but I make this plea. In adjusting ourselves to the fact and endeavouring now to accept the European Community, do not let us accept it half-heartedly. Do not let us give the impression that we are out to keep the Europeans back from where they want to go. Let us accept it whole-heartedly, confident that, although we may have lost a great deal, there is still enough political genius left in this country to give the new ideas in Europe a wider significance, a significance which otherwise I think they would far less easily acquire.
    6.27 p..m.
    Mr. F. J. Bellenger: I congratulate the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Hall Green (Mr. Aubrey Jones) on his robust speech and his form of thinking. Obviously it will be important at some time to extend the experiment of the European Economic Community into far wider fields, but I think that for the purpose of today's debate it is sufficient if we try to concentrate on what the Lord Privy Seal and my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition said.
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    I join with my right hon. Friend in saying that the Lord Privy Seal today has thrown considerable light on the negotiations which he is carrying on in Brussels. Nevertheless, we in the House of Commons today are rather in the position of shareholders meeting without a complete balance-sheet being put before us. It is as if the chairman of the board addressed the shareholders and said, "These are some of the debits." Obviously, from the point of view of the Commonwealth, the statement made by the Lord Privy Seal the other day is a debit item in the balance-sheet—the throwing over of Imperial Preference for Commonwealth exports to this country—but he was not disclosing to the shareholders some of the considerable credits.
    The right hon. Gentleman, in what I thought a very comprehensive speech, in his opening remarks hinted at a lot of the long-term advantages which Britain will get in the end, assuming that these negotiations are satisfactory in the context of the authority which the House of Commons has given to the Government to negotiate terms. I am not one of those to whom my right hon. Friend referred when he said that there are hon. and right hon. Members on both sides of the House who are in favour of accepting the Rome Treaty as it now stands. In a previous speech which I made in this House I agreed with the limitations which the House imposed on the Government, but we must be realistic.
    From what the right hon. Gentleman has told us today, there has been at least a considerable study of the problems which we all know are there and which embodied in the Motion which this House accepted when it gave authority to the Government to enter into negotiations last autumn. The right hon. Gentleman has given an indication as to when, if I may call it such, the extraordinary general meeting of the shareholders might be held. He has told us today that he hopes by the end of July to get what the lawyers call the heads of agreement before the whole thing is transposed and put into proper legal language. If he can do that, he will have been very successful in convincing his opposite numbers in Brussels.
    Let us all think back to the time which it took before the six countries

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    of the Community were able to agree and then to sign the Treaty of Rome. It was fax longer than the time taken, if the right hon. Gentleman is right, up to the end of July, which, roughly speaking, is the dateline. It was far longer than it has taken the Government in these negotiations to reach a point at which they can come to the House and, as they must, put point blank to the House, "This is what we propose. We propose to go in on these terms. Does the House of Commons say yes or no?" When that time comes, of course, there will be imposed on us a very grave decision.
    Today, all one can do after the right hon. Gentleman's speech is to comment on a few of the points he put before us and perhaps to emphasise to those hon. Members on both sides of the House who may be wavering and who may not be committed or, as a certain number of my hon. Friends and hon. and right hon. Members opposite are, opposing our entry into the Common Market.
    I should have put on the credit side of the balance-sheet an intangible asset which cannot be valued. The Government cannot say to this House in precise terms what its value is, but it is a tremendous advantage for this country in joining the Common Market. Surely the coming together of two enemies such as Germany and France have been in the past decades which have involved this country, willy-nilly with all our sovereignty, in two devastating wars, is an asset which ought to be weighed in the balance when we are discussing the credits and debits. I do not think anyone can say any more about that except that it is a fact of some importance.
    Mr. Emrys Hughes: If this is the argument, that France and Germany have become agreed in the Common Market, and that this has dissolved international enmities, is it not an argument for bringing Russia in as well?
    Mr. Bellenger: Certainly, except that Russia is not a European country and this is a European Community. Russia has had that opportunity in the wider context in the United Nations. We know only too well, so does the Community— that was one of the reasons for setting up the Community—the obstacles which have been put in the way of the orderly,
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    peaceful progress of the Western nations since the war. I do not want to argue that with my hon. Friend except to say that I would welcome in a wider context the adhesion of Russia to some community, although it would not be the European Economic Community. If Russia joined—and I hope this country will join the E.E.C—it would be a further guarantee of the factor of peace which I have just brought to the attention of the House, the coming together of France and Germany.
    The Lord Privy Seal gave some useful figures. I appreciate that he did not want to take up too much time, but I wish that he could, in the OFFICIAL REPORT or in some other way, let us know many of the other figures which he has. He hinted that the Commonwealth is not such a wonderful advantage to this country. In political concept there is no doubt that it is, although, as I said on another occasion, I prefer the white Commonwealth, which has shown its practical adherence to the mother country when the mother country has been in danger, to the 53 million emerging black people in Africa who at present, as we all know, are not following some of the well-defined democratic practices for which we stand and for which I hope the European Economic Community stands.
    There is no doubt—the facts are there—that Commonwealth trade with this country has been decreasing in the last few years. Those who say that we can boost it do not face realities. For example, what happens when Australia feels a financial draught? What does she do against this country? She immediately puts a bar down to many of the imports which she has been taking from this country, particularly motor cars. She is entitled to do this, but any hon. Member who over-plays what I would call the Commonwealth hand should remember that he is elected by the electors of this country to represent their interests in the main. Although we cannot ignore these other factors, we must put them into their right perspective.
    I can well understand visitors from other countries taking a rather cynical view of Britain, as they have done for a long time—hence the expression Albion perfide. I wish they had come to the House this afternoon and listened

    541
    to the President of the Board of Trade making his statement about imports of cotton textiles. I wish they had heard how fiercely the President of the Board of Trade was attacked from both sides of the House for allowing these cheap imports to come into the country in such a volume.
    I prefer the much more robust outlook set out in the Fourth Report from the Estimates Committee. A gentleman from Lancashire was asked how he viewed competition between the Common Market and Lancashire. Mr. Cart-wright, who is a very important and practical businessman in Lancashire, said:
    "I have no fear of competition with the Continent."
    He said also,
    "I cannot compete with the cheap imports which are coming from Hong Kong and India where wages are only 25 per cent. of what they are in this country."
    What do hon. Members representing Lancashire constituencies say to that? Is there not another side to the Commonwealth picture in addition to the oft-repeated argument that we must not let it down but must at all costs ensure that the Commonwealth is accepted by the E.E.C.? The fact remains that many of these cheap cotton textiles are being imported without any tariff into some E.E.C. countries. The Lord Privy Seal rightly said that the E.E.C. is outward-looking. There is no reason to believe that if we join it will have a narrower concept.
    There is one subject which disturbs many of us. This is why I am not one of those who believe that we should accede to the Treaty of Rome without conditions. I am concerned about New Zealand. I am not so worried about Australia or Canada. Hon. Members who read the Canadian Press will know that there is quite a lot of opinion there which also is not worried about Britain joining the Common Market. They say so, too. Australia is perhaps worried, for well-understood reasons. When a Government have a majority of only one, the Prime Minister has to take up some attitude on matters like this, but we as politicians know that what we say does not necessarily always represent the true state of affairs. I believe that Mr. Menzies is too great a states-
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    man to view this matter in a narrow Australian light. He of all people must know that, if Britain is not prosperous and progressive, we shall be in a worse position to take imports from Australia.
    Mr. Brian Harrison: If the right hon. Gentleman really believes that Mr. Menzies is as big a man as he says, why does he make the accusation that Mr. Menzies is playing party politics with the Commonwealth because he has a majority of only one?
    Mr. Bellenger: I cannot enter into the thoughts actuating many politicians. I can only present my point of view. I remember Mr. Menzies' efforts during the Suez crisis. That is why I put him in the position of a world statesman. He had a much larger majority then than he has now. However, I do not want to pursue the point too far.
    I do not know how we are going to solve the problem of New Zealand. New Zealand has built up its whole industry and livelihood on one market—Britain. There is no doubt that as time goes on agricultural efficiency will increase in the E.E.C. and it will be more self-sufficient. If we are in, presumably we shall not need the same quantities of New Zealand dairy produce. The Lord Privy Seal did not mention this explicitly, but I am sure that this point is constantly before him. I do not know what solution he will find.
    I am a little sceptical about the so-called comparable markets. What does that phrase mean? New Zealand can export her goods to us on preferential terms at present. We know that there will not be the same preferential terms in the Community. Therefore, I want to stress as strongly as I can, as no doubt many hon. Members opposite will, that some compensation in some way or other must be made to New Zealand. I think particularly in the case of New Zealand, it would be well worth the while of our taxpayers, and perhaps even worth the while of taxpayers in the Community, to compensate New Zealand for the long transitional period which she will need before she can sell her produce in other markets, as I am afraid that she will have to do at some time.
    We pay about £350 million a year to compensate our own agriculture.

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    This is not entirely, as the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Hall Green said, because it is part of the Welfare State. We do this for the reason which every country, including the countries in the E.E.C., subscribes to, namely to maintain a prosperous agriculture. It arises from a well known historical fact. If the peasants or the agricultural community in any country are dissatisfied, even in Russia, there are all the possibilities of rebellion and explosion. If we can afford to pay £350 million a year of the taxpayer's money to the agricultural community, as we do at present, it surely is not beyond the wit of man to find some money to compensate New Zealand for the hardship which I am afraid she will have to undergo, temporarily at any rate, if we join the E.E.C.
    It is interesting to compare the agricultural communities of Britain and E.E.C. A far larger proportion of the population of the Community is engaged in agriculture than is the case in this country. In the E.E.C. about 20 per cent. of the working population is engaged in agriculture. In this country it is about 4 or 5 per cent. What will happen as time goes on? Everybody who reads the newspapers or meets people in other countries knows that there is a shortage of labour in all the industrial countries of the E.E.C. The same thing will happen there as has happened in this country over the past century or more. Whereas 100 years ago we were a rural community, we have now swung over to an industrial community. The same will happen in the E.E.C. More people will leave the land, and are leaving the land at present, and go into industry. Is that a good thing or a bad thing? The right hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton (Mr. Turton) may say that it is a bad thing. I do not think that it is. We have operated on this system for years past.
    Mr. Turton: The result is that we have trebled our agricultural production.
    Mr. Bellenger: The same may easily happen overseas. The great thing is to keep the matter in proper balance. As I understand it, successive Governments have dealt with our farmers ever
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    since the war, and even during the war, on the basis of obtaining a balanced output. Directions were issued by agricultural committees during the war, and since the war there have been indirect directions through the nature of the subsidies, so that a balance of the agricultural produce of this country is achieved. I agree with the right hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton that there will come a time—this is implicit in what I am saying—when the agriculture of the Six or the seven or the ten, as it may be, will be sufficient for the needs of the Community. It may produce a surplus. One can only hope that the demands from the consumers will increase as prosperity grows in these countries. That is happening all over the world, particularly in India, where the per capita income is very low.
    However, we should not be too pessimistic. Debating points can be made, but the fact remains, as the Lord Privy Seal and the right hon. Member for Hall Green indicated, that the whole pattern of the world economy is changing. If we do not keep up with the change we may be left behind in the world.
    I want to say a few words about sovereignty, which is a subject dear to the heart of the right hon. and learned Member for Hertfordshire, East (Sir D. Walker-Smith). The subject of sovereignty is very dangerous, or can be presented as very dangerous, when it is dealt with in legal language. In practical affairs, especially is business, we know how sovereignty has been surrendered in the integrations and amalgamations of companies. Often directors who thought they had a job for life have been removed from a board on an amalgamation. The principal thing to consider is the views and the rights of the shareholders and not necessarily those of the directors.
    Two factors pre-dispose me in favour of joining the Common Market eventually. I am waiting to hear what are the best terms that the right hon. Gentleman can get. First, there are two large blocs, to which the right hon. Gentleman referred—the United States of America and Russia. Geographically, Russia is much nearer the Community than is America, and the Community, in its own interests, has had to take steps to protect itself against events of the

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    kind that have occurred even since the war in places like Czechoslovakia. What Russia has today is what one might call an economic community, but it is not an economic community of a voluntary kind, with willing partners. It is an economic community of nations that have been forced to join the economic set-up of Russia. Today, the economies of those countries are all attuned to the Russian economy, and we can see in various ways how successful the scheme is. It is successful because that large trading community can be turned in any direction against other countries with whom it is not friendly.
    Would it have been possible for Russia to have made such great advances in the sputnik sphere if she had not had tremendous economic means? We may decry such experiments, but they are all part of the change that the world is undergoing. How can Britain maintain her own independent nuclear weapon—and whether it is right or wrong is another matter—or her vast research into electronics and atomic matters unless she has considerable means? These means can be obtained only if Britain joins in a wider constellation and co-operates, as she does at present, with the EEC.
    I am told that even some of the undertakings that we are carrying on here— such as that at Winfrith Heath—are to some extent subsidised by some European countries. At any rate, that is what I was told when I went to Brussels. I talked to officials at Brussels who are presumably neutral, although they are the nominees of the various nations comprising the Community. From what they have told me it would appear that the studies and consultations which are now going on in the labour and industrial spheres between employers and trade unionists are far closer than in this country. A certain amount of progress has been made here, but there is far more co-operation there, and that co-operation is bound to lead to successful results.
    I noticed that when the Rome Treaty was going through the various Parliaments for ratification the largest majorities against it were in France and Italy. It is no coincidence that France and Italy have the two largest Communist political parties in Europe. Therefore
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    I view with some sadness—perhaps even with alarm—the alliance, in this kind of cold warfare, of a field marshal who during the war earned a glorious name for himself—his name will live in history—with newspaper advertisements which were paid for by those who are rabidly opponents of our entry into the Common Market. That is not the sort of argument that this House should listen to for a moment. It should make up its own mind without the need of paid advertisements using the name of a great field marshal.
    Mr. S. Silverman: I appreciate that there is a difference between paying a newspaper to print an article and a newspaper paying a contributor to write and publish an article, but is there any other difference between the article of the field marshal and the article of an ex-diplomat which was published in the Daily Herald this morning? If we are to choose between a half-pay field marshal and a superannuated diplomat, is there any way of distinguishing between the two?
    Mr. Bellenger: I would have thought that there was one vast difference, namely, that the coverage which the ex-diplomat received in the Daily Herald was nowhere near as much as that which the field marshal got through all the paid advertisements in the newspapers in which they appeared.
    Mr. Edelman: Is not my right hon. Friend making an extremely unfair equation between certain opponents of the Common Market and the field marshal? If we are to balance equations, is it not also true that one of the chief supporters of the Common Market is himself now engaged in a political activity which I am sure my right hon. Friend would deplore? Is not M. Bidault now the political head of O.A.S.?
    Mr. Bellenger: I do not know what the comparison is between an ex-politician—or perhaps he is still a practising politician—and the field marshal. Although I have certain strictures to make about the field marshal and his utter naivete in these matters, I put his bona fides on a more substantial ground than those of M. Bidault.
    Much evidence could be produced to be placed on the credit side of joining

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    the Common Market. The right hon. Gentleman produced some, for our edification. But we are not in a position to come to a decision today. As my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition said, that is the reason why we have not put down a Motion on the Order Paper. We have not even been as bold as some right hon. Gentlemen who sit opposite, who wrote to The Times about it—as they are quite entitled to do. I look forward with a great deal of interest to what they are going to say to back up the statements they made in their letter this morning. It was an ultimatum to the Government to stop these negotiations, although they were part and parcel of the Resolution which the House passed authorising the Government to proceed. I do not believe that those right hon. Gentlemen voted against the Resolution, but they must now give their reasons for having written the letter. At the moment the House is bound by the Resolution which was passed overwhelmingly last August, authorising the Government to carry on these negotiations.
    From what I have heard from various quarters, the negotiations have proceeded smoothly because of the patience and the obvious sincerity displayed by the Lord Privy Seal in his conduct at Brussels. I have heard from many people, expressing all sorts of points of view, that they believe in the right hon. Gentleman's sincerity. If he has only put England on the map as a sincere nation—as we were not in the so-called Maudling negotiations—he has gone far towards achieving a position that this House will recognise after he reports at the end of July.
    6.59 p.m.
    Mr. R. H. Turton: I agree entirely with the right hon. Member for Bassetlaw (Mr. Bellenger) that the great danger is—as I thought he said—that my right hon. Friend is going to put England on the mat. The two speeches that I have listened to, apart from those of my right hon. Friend and the Leader of the Opposition, have been from Members who are anxious to get Britain into the Common Market as quickly as possible, with or without conditions. My right hon. Friend the Member for Birming-
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    ham, Hall Green (Mr. Aubrey Jones) even said that if the negotiations were prolonged it might be taken to be a severe rebuff.
    I know that this is the beginning of a series of debates which will show the deep cleavage of opinion which exists between hon. Members who hold different views on this matter. I welcome that, because that is what Parliament is for. But I object to the attitude which the right hon. Member for Bassetlaw displayed When he talked about the Commonwealth. At all times the Commonwealth has been regarded quite apart from party politics. Except in the view of a small, extreme fringe on the Left of the Socialist Party, all hon. Members have expressed belief in the Commonwealth partnership. I am happy to see that now even the extreme Left has been converted to this view.
    Mr. S. Silverman: In order that there shall be no further misconception on the point, those to whom the right hon. Gentleman refers as being on the Left of the Labour Party believe in the Commonwealth more than ever now that it has become more of a free association of free peoples than it was in the old days.
    Mr. Turton: I was not including the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman). I thought that he was the outside-left.
    The right hon. Member for Bassetlaw made three charges in his speech. First, he talked about over-playing the Commonwealth hand; secondly, he jeered and sneered at the attitude of Mr. Menzies, the Prime Minister of Australia and, thirdly, he talked with contempt of what he described as the black Commonwealth.
    I hope that we shall try to conduct this series of debates on a rather higher level. We must remember our links with the Commonwealth. Let us remember the loyalty and friendship that the Prime Ministers and peoples of the Commonwealth have always extended to this country in good times and bad. If that does not appeal to the right hon. Gentleman, let him remember the amount of trade that his own constituents get from Britain's exports to the Commonwealth.
    Mr. Bellenger: I have no objection to the right hon. Gentleman's criticising me for what I have said, but I hope that he will not misunderstand me in relation to my reference to the black Commonwealth. That was not meant to be a derogatory term. It was a term which I used to distinguish my feelings for what I call the old Dominions, which are mainly white, from my feelings about the new Dominions, which are undoubtedly black.
    Mr. Turton: I will leave the right hon. Gentleman. HANSARD will record his speech, and I know that many other hon. Members wish to speak.
    I want to limit my remarks to the Commonwealth. The Leader of the Opposition said that the question of manufactured goods is not the major issue, but I regard it as a very important issue, which goes to the heart of the Commonwealth situation. I do not believe that the Government realise what a shock that decision gave to the country as well as to the Prime Minister of Australia and the Deputy Prime Minister of New Zealand. If we are going to be the head of a growing Commonwealth—and the growth factor in the Commonwealth is much higher than it is in any other part of the world today— we must bear in mind the difficulty of Commonwealth association with the Six.
    I was concerned when my right hon. Friend answered a Question put by my hon. Friend the Member for Sunderland, South (Mr. P. Williams) on Monday and, speaking of this provisional decision to abandon preferences in respect of manufacturered products from those three countries, said:
    "When he speaks of a breach of principle, I would ask him to recognise that the pattern of Imperial Preference has been changing for a very large number of years, and is changing the whole time."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 4th June, 1962; Vol. 661, c. 16.]
    Of course that is absolutely true, but let us remember—and let the right hon. Gentleman remember—that these preferences are bi-lateral agreements between sovereign Commonwealth countries. I should be glad to be corrected if I am wrong, but I have never known an occasion when these preferences have been altered except with the approval and consent of the parties concerned. I remind the House that when the present
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    Minister of Aviation brought in the changes in the Australian-British preferences on 12th November, 1956, it was because Britain and Australia had agreed to the changes. The danger about this matter of the preferences on manufactured goods is that these changes have not been agreed by the countries concerned, as is evidenced by the observations of Mr. Menzies and Mr. Marshall but have been stimulated by our negotiations with third party countries. That, as I see it, is the issue in this problem.
    Mr. Nicholas Ridley: Can my right hon. Friend say whether the Australian and Canadian Governments consulted us when they subsidised their shipbuilding to the extent of 40 or 33 per cent., which was very harmful to British trading interests?
    Mr. Turton: I am at the moment talking about Commonwealth preferences, which are bi-lateral arrangements. It may well be that there are many things that we have done wrong and many things that Commonwealth countries have done wrong. I am not arguing that. But the damage done on this very small issue—to the extent of £55 million, the Lord Privy Seal said—is that here we are breaking a bilateral agreement between two Commonwealth countries in the Commonwealth partnership. That is what is causing the shock to people in this country and to people in the Commonwealth countries.
    This is the first round. What about the next step? We are all concerned, as the Leader of the Opposition so very clearly put it, on what is going to happen to the temperate products. Are we going to ask for free entry for Commonwealth produce, such as butter, lamb, beef and so forth? A great deal depends on this. I am certain that the whole economy of New Zealand and a great deal of the economy of Australia and Canada depends on whether we are going to take the stand that we will have continued free entry for such produce.
    I think that if the housewives of this country were asked to register their opinion they would be unanimously in favour of continued free entry for that produce. I do not think that those who are keen Common Marketeers have really worked out what the shock would

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    be to the people of this country if we had to apply a duty of 24 per cent. to butter and 20 per cent. to meat, to give two specific items.
    If we are to abandon the free entry of Commonwealth produce, which I think would be deplorable, we come to the question whether we are going to get comparable outlets for the produce. I was puzzled by what the Lord Privy Seal said on that subject. If I understood him correctly, he said that the comparable outlets are not guaranteed sales but assurances of access. This means that New Zealand would lose the free entry for her butter and we should get from the Six no guarantee that she would be able to sell her butter there. All we should have would be that she would not be cut out as she is at present from the French and other markets. I think the position is that there is a prohibition on New Zealand butter exports to certain countries of the Six but not to others.
    I would say that that is a denial of all that we mean by "comparable outlets". If we are going to ride roughshod over the Commonwealth to that extent, I believe we had far better give up the negotiations now, because I do not believe that this country will stand for the destruction of the New Zealand economy.
    Mr. Heath: My right hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Mr. Turton) must be labouring under a complete misunderstanding. There has been no question of deceiving the Commonwealth in this way. There is no assurance at the moment to a Commonwealth country — with one exception, which is the Australian wheat agreement—that its produce will be bought in this country. The Commonwealth countries have free access here, but that does not mean an undertaking to a Commonwealth country that its produce is going to be bought. All I was saying in my remarks was that they should have access so that people may buy their produce if they wish to. There is no compulsion on people at the moment to buy Commonwealth produce. But they do it at the moment, and I have no doubt that they will go on doing it in the future.
    Mr. Turton: I do not think that my right hon. Friend has yet appreciated the position. The position is that it seems that we are going to destroy Commonwealth free entry. Up to the moment it has been believed that "comparable outlets" meant that New Zealand would be able to sell a similar quantity of produce in the countries of the Six. I believe that my right hon. Friend should fight for that in the negotiations.
    Mr. Heath: I do not think that my right hon. Friend recognises the difference between freedom to sell and a guarantee that a certain amount is going to be purchased.
    Mr. A. R. Wise: The discussion at the moment seems to be a little academic. We have the pledged word of at least four members of the present Government that the principle of Commonwealth free entry cannot be done away with. I hope that those members will be prepared to leave the Government if they are proved to be wrong.
    Mr. Turton: In my view, there is no uncertainty. This country believes in continued free entry for Commonwealth dairy produce. There is the aspect of the system of having our food at or near the world price. Suppose we go over to the other system. Let us remember the effect on, for instance, butter. If we start going up to the continental price level for butter, our people will not be able to eat butter because the price will be too high. In that case, not only will our standard of living fall, but New Zealand will also be ruined.
    However, I leave that and go straight to another point that I want to make. I refer here to the question of the transitional period. One of the dangers of the provisional decision announced last week was the so-called transitional period. I believe that my quickest way to deal with this is to refer to the words that Mr. McEwen used on 17th April in London when he talked about phasing of the preferences over a transitional period. He said:
    "To Australian producers this could only bring the stark prospect that they are to be given merely a reprieve and, instead of facing serious damage on the day of the United

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    Kingdom's entry into the Common Market, would meet it after the lapse after this so-called transitional period. This is no safeguard at all. We will not be tranquilised by a transitional period."
    I am certain that this is the wrong way of working these negotiations. We cannot have the Commonwealth economy bleeding to death over a period. I believe that the Lord Privy Seal—I have great admiration for the way in which he has conducted many of the negotiations —must be very tough on the question of temperate products and the transitional period. I became more certain of that when I read in the newspapers at the week-end that Dr. Adenauer, the Federal German Chancellor, had said that Britain would be welcomed into the Common Market but the Common Market could not digest the Commonwealth. If this is the attitude and the considered view of the Six, then I again tell my right hon. Friend that the sooner we end the negotiations the better, because they are merely wasting time.
    There is no question about it that while these negotiations are being prolonged the only effect in the Commonwealth countries is to make them realise that they must look round and try to find alternative markets which will take a little of their produce—alternative markets in which they can replace their own imports of British manufactured goods.
    Sir C. Osborne: That is what we have to do, too.
    Mr. Turton: I am not too sure. We shall have tremendous opportunities if Britain will really get down to it and help to build up the economies in the fast-growing, young, developing Commonwealth countries.
    I agree a great deal with what was said my my right hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Hall Green. I think that he was on a very sound point when he said that the rich countries are becoming richer and the poor countries poorer and that we have to put that right. It will mean that we should be studying with the Commonwealth means by which we can get stability of prices, the disposal of surpluses, the building up of their economies and the creation of more trade.
    Mr. Anthony Kershaw: In this country.
    Mr. Turton: I hope that my hon. Friend will not interrupt. If he will not, it will help a great deal.
    Mr. Kershaw: My right hon. Friend indicated just now that he would not give way. This is the only way I can interrupt him.
    Mr. Turton: I have given way about four times. I am trying to take less time than other hon. and right hon. Gentlemen have done. As I was trying to get to my peroration I felt I should not give way.
    Clearly, there is an opportunity. We have the Commonwealth Prime Ministers coming here in September. When we have got them together, that should be the occasion to try to work out how we can increase trade between the Commonwealth countries, not merely between this country and each individual Commonwealth country but also the intra-Commonwealth trade. I hope that my right hon. Friends the Lord Privy Seal and the Prime Minister will consider that at this time. I believe that then these negotiations, these battles, however prolonged, will not have been wasted, and I believe that we shall then be able to make a great contribution to the world.
    7.18 p.m.
    Mr. J. Grimond: The negotiations now going on are a matter of bargaining, and detailed bargaining, and, like other hon. Members, I congratulate the Lord Privy Seal on the reputation which he has earned in this process. But in this debate, which is probably the most important debate this country has had for at least a generation—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."]—the general debate about the Common Market I mean; not this particular House of Commons debate— the heart as well as the head is involved. The future of this country and the Commonwealth and the future of Europe is involved.
    The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Mr. Turton) is devoted to the ideal of the Commonwealth, and I respect him for that, but I really think that this is a far more important matter than his argument about butter. We can probably settle the butter business. But

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    the future of the Commonwealth is a matter of the greatest importance, and will remain so for a long time. All I would say to the right hon. Gentleman, in all sincerity, is that I doubt the reality of the type of Commonwealth in which he tries to believe. He says that the Commonwealth Prime Ministers are coming here in September and we can then discuss the encouragement of intra-Commonwealth trade. Of course we can. But the Commonwealth Prime Ministers have been coming here year after year. In fact, we know quite well that if Australia gets into economic difficulties she not unnaturally puts up her tariffs, and that when Canada wishes to devalue her dollar she does so and does not consult us.
    I have spoken to people who come to these conferences, and I have not found this enthusiasm for anything like a Commonwealth Free Trade Area. I think that we are deluding ourselves if we think that the development of the Commonwealth can be along those lines. I believe that it has a great future, and that we can contribute more to that future.
    The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Birmingham, Hall Green (Mr. Aubrey Jones) said, and the right hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton agreed, that Britain within Europe might well be able to develop new ways and machinery for helping the Commonwealth which might be denied to Britain outside Europe. To my mind, we have to look more to the question of services to the Commonwealth, of aid by way of capital development to the Commonwealth, and we have to remember that the Commonwealth is a multi-racial society of countries which are very unequal in their demands and outlook. I do not think that we can regard it as an alternative or a rival to Europe.
    I am in favour of these negotiations, and I hope they will succeed. I think that one has to have a certain emotional response about this matter. I do not think that one can look simply at the terms, although I agree that the terms are very important. It is like a person buying a house. First, he has to make up his mind what sort of house he wants to live in. Then he has to look at the price. The price may be impossible. I
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    do not deny that these negotiations may fail. But to my mind Europe is the sort of house into which the British people should go.
    Why do I say that? I do so primarily because I think that a united Europe with Britain in it can be and is a force for peace. I think that the old enmity between France and Germany may be discounted to some extent because that is perhaps not a serious cause of friction today. But do not let us discount it entirely. The elimination of friction inside Europe is not something to be lightly written off. This friction has been the cause of more suffering to the human race than probably any other factor in the world.
    Mr. S. Silverman: We are going to make it worse.
    Mr. Grimond: I do not accept that. I may be quite wrong, but I believe that a united Europe could be a factor for peace, a useful negotiator between America and Russia.
    Mr. Silverman: But it is not a united Europe.
    Mr. Grimond: The second point that influences me in favour of a united Europe is that I believe we shall be contributing to a great advance in European civilisation. European civilisation is the greatest civilisation the world has ever seen. I think that we can ill afford to allow this country, which is a European country, to be outside this great movement.
    Thirdly, there is the possibility of political and economic expansion. The Leader of the Opposition said that the economic advantages of going into Europe could be exaggerated. I accept that that is true. But we have to look at the political and economic possibilities together. We have to think of what has been possible in a great united area like the United States of America and take into account the growing trade of this country with Europe, a trade which when we have gone in, will be internal, home trade, no longer export trade but trade in a home market.
    I would agree that the difficulties of expansion in Europe may be greater over the next decade than over the last decade. Nevertheless, joint planning may give us an economic strength which we could

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    not achieve otherwise. It might be a great help in dealing with the problem of sterling if we could pool the resources of Europe and were able to accumulate a surplus for investment overseas. I am not saying that all these things will inevitably follow; of course they will not. But I think that the opportunities will be there and unless we do go in, I do not see how we are to get them.
    I entirely agree with those who say that we should not go into Europe as a means of curing all the ills of the British economy. I do not think that we should be wise to throw the British economy into the deep end of the swimming bath to see whether it sinks or swims. We have to get our economy right before we go in, but if we can get it right then we shall have great advantages from the European market.
    I disagree with the Leader of the Opposition when he says that if the negotiations fail we can go on as before. I think that the country would be most unwise to think that. For one thing, capital in this country would go into Europe and we have no means of stopping it. We might make a great effort in another direction. It may be that there would be the possibility of a new rôle for Britain in the world, but we might sink back into a small inward-looking and uninfluential nation lying off the shores of Europe. I do not believe that we can go on just as before. The decisions taken in the next year or two will be vital decisions, whether we think them good or bad, and it is no good blinking the facts.
    As for the negotiations, I have no doubt that there will be moments of great difficulty in which we shall need extremely cool nerves. I do not believe that we shall get the best terms by laying down a list of detailed conditions, and I do not believe that we shall make the Government's task easier by providing them with a list of such basic conditions. We have, I am sure, to show enthusiasm for the European idea, and if the Prime Minister has convinced President de Gaulle that we are going into Europe with enthusiasm, then he has done a good job. If we seem to quibble too much over the details of the negotiation, we shall damage the possibility of getting a good all-round bargain. It is an all-round bargain that
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    we want. That is important not only to us but to the Commonwealth.
    Mr. Shinwell: The right hon. Gentleman has remarkable facilities for contradicting himself. First he tells us that we must not lay down conditions. That is his argument based on the newly founded enthusiasm of President de Gaulle and the Prime Minister. Then he said that we must bargain. About what shall we bargain?
    Mr. Grimond: The right hon. Gentleman cannot be as simple as all that. Of course we must bargain. The question is whether we tie round the Government's neck a whole lot of detailed basic conditions before they start bargaining, which can be used to beat them about the ears later. I hope to give some general ideas of the sort of conditions on which the bargaining should take place. All that I am saying is that we should not lay down detailed basic conditions. It is wrong to believe that we can go into Europe and get better terms by showing no real enthusiasm for the idea which is animating, for better or worse, the whole spirit of Europe today.
    Mr. Percy Collick: Will the right hon. Gentleman make the position quite clear? He has made statements in the country again and again that we should enter the Common Market unconditionally. Now he talks about bargaining and coming to terms.
    Mr. Grimond: I am grateful for that intervention, because I am glad to make it clear that I have never said that we should go into Europe unconditionally. I wish to make that quite clear and then to get on with my speech.
    We are in a certain difficulty about the form of the negotiations, because what will ultimately be important is how the pieces fit together. As I understand it, the pieces are bound to come out one by one, as the agreement over industrial manufactures has come out. Every time the pieces come out, somebody will raise his voice in criticism. That is bound to happen. I foresee that the Commonwealth Prime Ministers will be in a position continually of being forced to criticise the development of the agreement before they have seen the whole picture.

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    in this situation, what is important is that we should look ahead at the ultimate result which we hope to achieve. It should be generally agreed that what we want to achieve is entrance on fair terms into the Common Market, and then to make it an outward-looking organisation. The Lord Privy Seal said that it was an outward-looking organisation, and I agree, but there is one aspect which I want to mention—a tendency in Europe to regard the Community as simply a defence against Communism. No doubt it is valuable to have a defence against Communism, but this should not be the prime argument, to my mind, for the Common Market. There would be a strong argument for it whether the Communist menace existed or not, and I very much hope that our influence will be exerted in seeing that it does not become a barrier to a settlement in middle Europe.
    We come, next, to the question of the directions in which we hope to see the negotiations move in respect of the Commonwealth. On the general lines of this I certainly agree that we ought to press for some association of the African and West Indian countries, and similar members of the Commonwealth, with the Common Market, on the lines which France achieved for her ex-colonies. The Leader of the Opposition does not like the word "association" and I sympathise with his views about it, and perhaps during the negotiations we may get "association" altered. It is, however, what as likely to the offered. He seemed to imply at one moment that association involved some political relationship with Europe, but this, I think, is not so. I am glad that the Lord Privy Seal nods his head.
    I turn to the necessity of the enlarged Community absorbing as large a quantity of manufactures from the new industries in Asia as Britain and Europe, do now. A very good test of the intentions of the Community will be their willingness to reduce tariffs on raw materials. If they are willing to have zero tariffs on wood pulp, newsprint and aluminium, for example, this is a very good test of whether they will be an outward-looking Community, and it would be a great assistance to Canada.
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    I come to what by common consent is the most difficult question—temperate products, particularly those of New Zealand.
    Mr. William Baxter: The right hon. Gentleman talks about wood pulp from Canada being taken into the Common Market. What effect would that have on the future of the industry in Scotland?
    Mr. Grimond: I could not say in detail. If we went into 'the Common Market we should settle that point. At the moment it might put us in difficulty.
    I want to come to the question of temperate products, and it is worth stressing again that the world is changing very rapidly and that the patterns of world trade will change even more in the next ten years. The provision of new capital may be more important than a particular level of a particular duty.
    I hope that new markets will be found and new commodity agreements negotiated. Already Australian wheat is being sent to China. I believe that we shall be in a better position inside Europe to influence the new patterns of world trade and, for instance, to bring pressure upon the Americans to bring down their tariffs as a compensation for reducing European tariffs. I believe that we shall be in a far stronger position inside Europe to do this than we shall be outside. In addition, we shall have the opportunity in Europe of following the suggestions made by Marjohn and others for another development of European planning and for the pooling of reserves, which will be much more effective in helping sterling than any restrictive measures in this country.
    May I comment on the political implications? I welcome the Lord Privy Seal's declaration that the British Government are prepared to participate in the discussions on the political unity of Europe. He also said that he foresees a European Parliament playing an important part. We should not delude ourselves about this. My impression is that Europeans intend to have a European Parliament. I took part in a television programme with the Lord Privy Seal in which this became crystal clear, and I do not think that we should try to conceal it from the people of this country. The Leader of the Opposition

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    said that he would prefer an expansion of the Ministers' powers. That may be a better way of doing it, but it is not the way in which Europe is thinking, and I shall be interested, when the Lord Privy Seal winds up the debate, to hear whether he is prepared to confirm that if we are going into Europe, we are going into a political unit and into a Continent which is looking, perhaps twenty years ahead, to the time when it has an elected Parliament.
    I should like to follow the suggestions made by the right hon. Member for Hall Green. I was not entirely sure, when he spoke of the new agencies which he thought could be applied to our Commonwealth, whether he regarded these as being bureaucratic agencies or whether he was speaking of agencies with some democratic control over them. In speaking in this way we should be clear that if these are European agencies, and if the Commonwealth is getting primarily European capital, even though Britain may be contributing largely to it, the special relationship of this country with the Commonwealth will alter. People from the Commonwealth who wish to do business or to get aid will go to Brussels and elsewhere and will not come to London. We shall have to think in entirely new terms of the relationship between this country and the Commonwealth.
    I accept that some people are against the whole idea.
    Mr. Shinwell: I am one.
    Mr. Grimond: A strong suspicion was growing in my mind that the right hon. Gentleman was opposed to the Common Market. I was beginning to think so.
    Mr. Shinwell: I would not touch the Common Market with a barge-pole.
    Mr. Grimond: The right hon. Gentleman is not in very good company, but I will not draw attention to that.
    To those who are waiting to make up their minds, I will say that it is no good going into Europe holding one's nose, so to speak. We must go into Europe seeing the opportunities larger than the difficulties. This is the moment, I think, for stressing the contribution which we can make to Europe and stressing the excitement of taking part in a new chapter of European civilisation. We
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    should emphasise that we shall be strengthening Europe and the possibilities of what Europe can do for the world.
    It may well be that the negotiations now going on will take a long time. The Government will be very lucky to complete them by the end of July. If they take longer, I hope that the Government will continue with them and will not be jockeyed into any premature rupture of the negotiations. I hope that, having embarked on this adventure, they will go through with it.
    Ultimately, the decision will depend on the whole shape of the terms which we are offered to go into the European Community. If we achieve suitable terms, I do not despair of having a new relationship with the Commonwealth and of being able to provide the Commonwealth with much greater aid than we alone can provide—and of using our prestige and influence in Europe to increase our general influence throughout the world.
    7.40 p.m.
    Mr. Maurice Macmillan: It is by no means always that I agree with the right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond), the Leader of the Liberal Party, but we must all be pleased to know that whatever the attitude of the Liberals in the past, they have come round to the side of those who would impose conditions on our entry into the Common Market.
    I congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on the enthusiasm which he has shown, because it is a quality which has been lacking in some of the speeches, particularly from those who are opposed to Britain's entry into the Common Market. I have just returned from a meeting of the Western European Union Assembly. Not only was the British delegation there delighted with the firm and definite statement made by the Lord Privy Seal on safeguards for Commonwealth trade, and his repetition of it, but the European Parliamentary delegates at that meeting showed a growing understanding of the problems of the Commonwealth.
    They showed great fears, too— because there are fears on the European side as well as on the side of the United Kingdom and the Commonwealth. They were curiously similar in

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    tone and in manner of expression as they are here, and they centred largely on the arrangements for the transitional period of Commonwealth association. The attitude to the long-term solution of all these problems varies partly ideologically in Europe, as it does in this House, but I think with even more determination. Dr. Adenauer was quoted as saying that the Common Market cannot digest the Commonwealth. Some of my hon. Friends this afternoon seemed to fear that the Common Market can engulf the Commonwealth only too easily. I think that they are all suffering from a misapprehension as to the nature of the problem.
    If it is viewed as a series of difficulties to be overcome, a series of obstacles which two groups of people are persistently and with determination intending to put in each other's way; if it is seen as two camps which are inevitably mutually opposed, then I have no doubt that the interests of the Commonwealth and the Common Market will be totally irreconcilable. But that is a great distortion of the facts, and it is becoming clearer as time goes on, despite the efforts of many to prove otherwise, that the long-range interests, whatever may be the transitional difficulties, of both Europe and the Commonwealth are in accord and that the future of a great deal of the rest of the world depends upon our success now in translating that accord into agreement and eventually into action.
    Perhaps the real division is between those whose ideas are so firmly rooted in the past that they cannot even look a year or two into the future and those whose conception of the world in which they have lived is projected so definitely into the future that they are not able to grasp what my right hon. Friend the Member for Flint, West (Mr. Birch), in an eloquent speech some time ago, described as a new problem of scale in the European political and economic arrangements.
    Although even in Europe there is general agreement that the problem of the Commonwealth is of vital importance to the United Kingdom and to Europe, there is also general agreement that the details of these problems are bigger than merely the Common-
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    wealth itself, that they concern every part of the world and that their long-range solution is more global than local. It is necessary, as the right hon. Member for Bassetlaw (Mr. Bellenger) said, to develop third markets for the temperate foodstuffs and for the increasing European surplus of food production. This is being discussed and considered under O.E.C.D. arrangements. I for one am convinced that it is easier for us in the United Kingdom to fit the Commonwealth into these plans as a member of the Common Market than as an outsider. It is the same with the related problem of subsidised exports at below world market prices. This is not a problem which concerns merely the Commonwealth, although perhaps the chief duty of hon. Members in this respect is towards the Commonwealth.
    The third point of world importance is the extension of the existing arrangements to world commodity agreements. A market for new industries in underdeveloped countries is a European as well as a United Kingdom problem. As has been said, the arguments which we have had today and yesterday about the cotton industry show that it might be much more easily resolved by the United Kingdom in the context of Europe than by ourselves.
    Mr. J. T. Price: Would the hon. Member for Halifax (Mr. Maurice Macmillan) relate to his arguments the figures for Asiatic textile goods exported from Hong Kong and elsewhere and now being absorbed by the six countries of the Common Market as compared with the amount being taken by this country? What prospect does he think there is of these figures being reversed in our favour?
    Mr. Macmillan: I have no doubt that, despite the objections of the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman), this country is taking far more than its fair share of the surplus production of cotton goods from Asia, and I have no doubt that so long as we remain outside the Common Market there is no hope whatever of getting any European help in dealing with this problem. But it is a problem which is being accepted as basically European, continental in scope, by the countries of the Community and it is a problem

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    which the countries of Europe are studying together to produce what they call a Community solution. I, for one, do not think that our position will be any harder within that Community than it is now, because it is not very easy at the moment, with hon. Members on both sides of the House demanding free entry into the country for Commonwealth goods and others demanding that Commonwealth goods should be kept out.
    Let there be no mistake about it: if we are to develop industries in underdeveloped countries, the early products of those industries are, by definition, bound to be the products of cheap labour. It cannot be otherwise. If we are to deny entry into Europe and into other sophisticated economies to all the products of Asiatic, African and other areas of development, then we might as well keep our capital at home and stop wasting our effort, because there is no point in developing industries and then refusing to buy their goods.
    There is a parallel problem in what has been called the old Dominions. They, too, are developing new industries —aluminium in New Zealand, motor cars in Australia and so on. They can do so only in competiton with the bigger markets and more sophisticated methods of production of the older economies, and they do it, when necessary, behind tariff barriers. If they are to deny us outlets for our goods in Europe, it will be very hard for us to accept free entry of their goods against corresponding tariff barriers put up by them.
    I remind the hon. Member for West-houghton (Mr. J. T. Price) of the Canadian reaction when we found it difficult to buy paper from Sweden. The Canadians, as they were entitled to do, took advantage of that situation and put up their prices. My own constituency finds that Commonwealth free entry and Commonwealth preference with wool is a very one-sided arrangement. I am not grumbling about that. These Commonwealth countries need to buy in the cheapest markets and we have all had figures quoted from time to time to show how the preferences for United Kingdom goods are being slowly reduced, not out of malice or wickedness, but to meet the needs and demands of a modern situation. It is only logical that in re-
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    turn we in the United Kingdom should try at least to keep ourselves up to date with those countries in the Commonwealth. We in this country can have no complaints, but we must recognise and accept the implications. We must not seek to limit the Commonwealth. We must not seek to limit its markets and to cut it off from sources of investment other than this country, but neither must we try to limit the development of backward countries and backward industries.
    Europe fears the Commonwealth as being associated with the Common Market, and it is not a question of Europe resenting the Commonwealth or resenting the United Kingdom. I think that Europe fears the prospects of such an association because for a long time it has seen how we in this country, quite rightly and properly, have allowed the Commonwealth to have its cake and eat it. Up to now, it has been the United Kingdom which has paid. The fear in Europe is that now that we are finding it difficult, we may use the Common Market to try to make the Europeans pay. I must say quite frankly that violent expressions of opinion, not on an agreement, but on a proposed agreement on manufactured goods, from those who are least affected by it merely add to the atmosphere of misunderstanding in Europe itself.
    I agree with my right hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Mr. Turton) that we must be tough in the transitional period, but we must also be fair, and it is hardly fair to say that agreements have been made behind the back of the Commonwealth when nothing has yet been agreed and it is only a proposal. This is one of the disadvantages of keeping the Commonwealth informed. There are two ways of doing it. We can conclude a whole series of arrangements and then put them complete before the Commonwealth—take it or leave it—or we can keep the Commonwealth informed, as has been done, piecemeal. But it is not fair to say when one part of a proposed arrangement has been just proposed, not after, that that is an agreement entered into behind the back of the Commonwealth and without its consent, because the question of Commonwealth agreement and consent does not arise until the proposition is complete.

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    There is no doubt that the practical difficulties, in whatever atmosphere they are met, are very considerable. But they have all been met before and if it is worth reminding the Commonwealth that it must not expect more than is reasonable from the United Kingdom, it is even more important to remind Europe that it has dealt generously with its own problems and that we have every right to expect that it will deal equally generously with ours.
    In his opening statement to the Six on 10th October, 1961, my right hon. Friend the Lord Privy Seal said:
    "It is a striking fact, and very relevant to the Commonwealth problem, that in no case was a tariff imposed on trade where one had not been in force before the Treaty was signed."
    It is worth reminding the House, and perhaps it would be worth the time of the Lord Privy Seal to remind the people in the negotiations, of the Morocco Protocol which exempted from the common tariff exports from Morocco, Tunisia, Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos and the French settlements in the New Hebrides.
    In 1960, under that protocol, £96 million worth of goods were imported into France from Morocco free of tariff, and £25 million from Tunisia, free of tariff. The same arrangement under the Morocco Protocol applied to imports into the Benelux countries from Surinan and the Netherlands Antilles and into Italy from Libya and Italian Somalia. Under the German Trade Problem Protocol, trade between East and West Germany for the purpose of the European Economic Community counted as internal, and the 1960 figure for imports into Western Germany from Eastern Germany was some £85 million. Under Part IV of the Treaty and the implementing convention, the Frence dependencies, Madagascar, the Congo, Italian Somalia and Netherlands New Guinea were all counted as associate territories. The imports from the French overseas territories alone in 1960 were £228 million.
    I have not been able to obtain all the figures for these various exclusions from the Treaty of Rome, but those which I have quoted, together with a few which I have not mentioned, total about £440 million free imports into the Common Market under the various protocols and
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    special arrangements which I have mentioned. In the pamphlet which the Government have just produced, the total of temperate foodstuffs quoted is £445 million.
    These are comparable figures and show that if the problem has been dealt with successfully once, it is not a technical problem which is preventing any solution now. The figures are evidence, in addition to those quoted by the Lord Privy Seal, that the Common Market is alive to these problems and has found a method of dealing with them. If we are to show understanding in the sense of realising that exceptions cannot be made in circumstances which will turn those exceptions themselves into the rule, at least we can ask that in face of these exceptions our proposals can be considered sympathetically and brought to a conclusion which is genuinely satisfactory to the needs of the Commonwealth. If I might divert for one moment from the question of the Commonwealth, this is also an argument for saying that it will not be as difficult as all that to meet the needs of the neutral countries, especially the probable consequences to their right to make independent trade treaties which their neutrality demands.
    These are figures and details and they are important but, as the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Liberal Party recognised, there is more to it than the details and more to it than the figures. We can all be grateful that, while the Lord Privy Seal has shown that we, too, must approach this in a manner combining practicality with enthusiasm, he has not quite the right hon. Gentleman's rather lofty disregard of some of the details. I hope that both his practicality and his enthusiasm will be reinforced and not diminished by the course of the debate.
    8.0 p.m.
    Mr. William Blyton: I listened to the hon. Member for Halifax (Mr. Maurice Macmillan) with great interest. I am still unrepentant on my attitude towards Britain entering the Common Market. I am for the Commonwealth and the hon. Member is a European. That sums up the difference between us. Shortly we have to face in the House a decision of grave importance and consequence to

    569
    every home and every family in these islands. It is the decision whether we sign not only the Treaty of Rome of which everyone has spoken today, but whether we join the Common Market in coal and steel and also in Euratom, because we cannot discuss the Treaty of Rome alone. All these things are linked together.
    We ought not to deny the political implications of the aim of the Europeans to have a federalist State for Europe. To deny it would be not only futile but dishonest. Government Front Bench spokesmen should tell the people with whom they are negotiating that the constitution of this country provides that the Government cannot commit any future Government that may sit opposite. Therefore, what the Government are doing now can in no way commit any future Government which may be elected to succeed them.
    How is it that the Common Market is now such a good thing for us when no one said before April, 1961, that it was good for us at all? The Treaty of Rome was signed in 1957 and has operated from 1959. Euratom has operated from 1956 and the Coal and Steel Agreement from 1952. No campaigns were run then to tell us how necessary and advantageous it was for us to join. On the contrary, the Labour Party and the Tory Party were telling everyone in the country that because of Britain's position in the world she had to stay outside the Common Market as a full member. How it is that what was considered unfavourable before 1961 should have suddenly become so terribly urgent, as the hon. Member for Halifax tried to depict a few moments ago?
    Did America change the Prime Minister's mind? Last year our economy was so weak that we had to borrow £760 million from the International Monetary Fund to safeguard our currency. Did the international moneylenders tell the Government and lay down as one of the conditions that we could only have a loan if we entered the Common Market? It seems to me that during the last 12 months important aspects of British policy have not been decided by the democratic processes of Parliament but dictated to us by foreign bankers.
    Since April, 1961, we have had this flood of pro-Common Market propa-
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    ganda dealt with by public relations campaigns designed to get the British people to believe that the Common Market is some E1 Dorado which will solve all our economic problems. Even the Government themselves in many ways have tried to arouse unreasonable fears of Britain perishing if we stay out and equally wild hopes of miraculous benefits if we join. The Government must face the charge that in the last 12 months they have been trying to stampede a bewildered nation into the Common Market.
    I have strong views on this subject, and I intend to express them in the course of my remarks. I say to my own side of the House that I shall speak on this issue as a lifelong Socialist and as one who believes that this country is still a great nation no matter how it may be decried. I want to speak about how Socialist economic planning is to fit into the Treaty of Rome, the Coal and Steel Community and Euratom.
    When I spoke last year I said that the powers held by the High Authority would even thwart any attempt by us to nationalise steel and would prevent our having Socialist planning. I have some evidence to support this view. There have been two examples of this, one in Belgium and one in the Ruhr Valley under the Coal and Steel Agreement, the institutions of which are exactly the same as those in the Treaty of Rome.
    The Belgian Government passed a law setting up a directoire as a public body to administer Belgium's coal distribution. It was a planning measure. It set up a marketing board which would control the sales of Belgian coal and fix quotas for the mines. The High Authority instructed the Belgian Government that under Article 88 of the Treaty they could not do this. The case against Belgium made out by the High Authority was that to set up the directoire to control sales was against the rules of competition and would distort the Coal and Steel Community's economy
    In trying to get out of this difficulty, the Belgians replied by justifying their action on the basis that the fixing of quotas and prices was the right of management. But the High Authority replied by saying that the fixing of quotas and prices was not the right of

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    management but was an aspect of the economic policy of the State and, according to the Treaty, power to make economic policy decisions rested with the High Authority and not with the national Parliament of Belgium.
    The High Authority has given Belgium till the end of June to conform to the instruction to end the directoire or to appear before its Court of Justice. But this matter has not ended there. The Authority has said to Belgium that to set up in Belgium a body to control sales from Belgium's coal mines on the basis of a marketing board run as a public service would limit the power of the Authority and would violate the principle of the Treaty and the liberty of private enterprise and competition.
    Belgium now, as a full member of this Treaty, faces penalties under Clause 88. If she does not comply, the Authority will evoke Article 4 which defines conditions which are incompatible with the Common Market and steps will be taken to deal with Belgium in that way. Therefore, Belgium is regarded as a defaulter because she has tried to set up a plan for the sale of her coal inside her own national boundaries. Here is a case where an elected Government of a Common Market country make a planning decision which they believed would help the country and now they have to rescind it on the instructions of the High Authority.
    There is another case, and I quote these cases to show what the effect will be on us if we as a Labour Party gain power at the next election and we sit on the Treasury benches opposite and we have been committed to the Treaty of Rome by the present Government. The other case is that of the Ruhr coal sales agencies, which has been taken to the Court of Justice by the High Authority. The Court has ruled that the High Authority was right in refusing to allow the Ruhr sales agencies to combine into a single sales organisation for coal, bearing in mind the fact that the Treaty upholds the idea of competition.
    The judgment further states:
    "A single sales agency for the Ruhr would in effect amount to price control for the whole market, and thus eliminate the element of competition."
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    It concluded by saying:
    "That such a sales organisation should be so big was incompatible with the Treaty in its present form."
    Mr. David Webster: Is it not a fact that the Coal Marketing Board in Germany is anxious that we should get into the Coal and Steel Community to counterbalance that type of position?
    Mr. Blyton: The hon. Gentleman does not seem to be following my argument. My party stands for renationalisation of the steel industry. On the two decisions to which I have referred, I ask the question—because it is case law that is being made—how can we, if we get power, having transferred our sovereignty under these treaties to a high authority, possibly nationalise the steel industry?
    I leave that with this comment to my hon. Friends who are pro-Common Marketeers. If we adopt the Treaty of Rome—and I shall deal with this in a moment—or the Coal and Steel Community Treaty, we may as well renounce Labour in the 'sixties because we will be handcuffed and hamstrung by the High Authority on the Continent and we will not be able to do anything.
    Mr. K. Zilliacus: In support of what my hon. Friend has said, has he seen the article in the Guardian of 29th May by John Dunkley analysing the reaction of the European steel industries to the prospect of Britain coming into the Common Market? The article concludes by saying that whereas the coal and steel High Authority will favour bigger mergers
    "one thing that does seem to be ruled out is the renationalisation of the British steel industry by a future Labour Government. Coal is one thing: steel is another: and private enterprise in Europe is anxious to keep it that way."
    That confirms what my hon. Friend was saying.
    Mr. Austen Albu: That means absolutely nothing at all. It is absolute nonsense.
    Mr. Blyton: I have quoted the decisions of the Court of Justice and on that I rest my case. I will not argue the point with hon. Gentlemen opposite because they believe that by going into the Common Market they will stop nationalisation.

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    I come now to the Treaty of Rome. This Treaty is based on the same institutions as the Coal and Steel Treaty. It has a High Authority, a common Assembly, a Council of Ministers and a Court of Justice. I do not propose to deal with every aspect of the Treaty of Rome. If I did so I should be here until 12 o'clock. I do, however, intend to deal with economic planning in relation to this Treaty.
    My first point relates to the free movement of capital within the Treaty of Rome countries. The European market is not merely a device for the reduction of trade barriers between the participating countries and the erection of a common external tariff wall. It is much more than that. It provides for far-reaching measures of economic integration which would take from us essentail powers to maintain full employment when faced with a capitalist recession, and to provide for smooth economic expansion of the basis of the planned control of our resources.
    Consider the free movement of traffic. The explicit aim of the Treaty of Rome is to remove restrictions on the free movement of capital between the participating countries. I may be told that these are permissive clauses which might enable the countries concerned to take protective measures if the movement of capital was likely to disturb their economies. But the application of these protective measures, which are limited, are to be supervised by the High Authority which stands above Governments.
    The free movement of capital as envisaged in the Treaty of Rome is incompatible with real economic planning in the interests of working people. The fact is that for full employment and economic expansion it is essential to control the flow of capital. I believe that this is the necessary accompaniment to the extension of social ownership to key industries in this country. Therefore, the free movement of capital envisaged in the Treaty of Rome is, in my opinion, a negation of the policies of the trade union and labour movements for controlled and planned investment.
    During the last election our party stated that
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    "to ensure full employment and economic growth the investment policies of the big businesses must be publicly controlled."
    In fighting that election we also stated that to check a slump there were measures which we as a Government could take, such as stimulating investment and lending capital by the State to finance particular projects. But it will not be possible to do this under the Treaty of Rome, because one of the aims of this Treaty is to prohibit State subsidies which distort or threaten to distort competition.
    We have always argued in this House for a better Distribution of Industry Act than we have now. Our purpose is to steer capital resources to the areas where there is heavy unemployment and thus try to create new industries and new jobs. When we had power we gave various forms of inducement to industrialists to establish new industries in depressed areas and provision was made for State assistance towards the establishment of trading estates.
    Our Act was better than the present one, although we had no powers of direction. What fools we would be to embrace this reactionary dogma of the free movement of capital referred to in the Treaty of Rome and stop advocating the planned distribution of industry and controlled investment.
    Mr. Christopher Chataway (Lewis-ham, North): As I understand it, there is nothing in the Treaty of Rome which prevents the planned distribution of industry. This is permitted by Article 93.
    Mr. Blyton: I have said that there are permissive Clauses, but the decision to permit the movement of capital will not be in the hands of an elected Government. It will be in the hands of the High Authority. It is this Authority which will determine the distribution of industry and not the elected Government on the Front Bench opposite.
    In 1956 the T.U.C. General Council issued a policy statement "Economic Association with Europe". That document stresses that the British Government should insist on reserving for itself whatever powers may be necessary to ensure full employment and the most efficient use of our economic resources.

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    That is as true today as when it was written in 1956. We do not want to accept these handcuffs on our party when we get power, because the Government will be defeated in the next election, and therefore we want to watch where we are moving in regard to the antics of the Tory Government concerning the Common Market.
    I have always taken the view that we do not want to erect more barriers in the world but to try to lessen them. Then, in our colonial policy, we have always pleaded for independence and we have always helped the economies of the countries within the British Commonwealth to the best of our ability. Here again, how can we do it if we have the free movement of capital? I listened to the figures of percentages of national product given to under-developed areas which were quoted by the hon. Member for Halifax, showing Germany with 93 and the Netherlands, the highest, with 2·6. Surely, if we compare our 1·6 with the Netherlands' 2·6 our figures are considerably better than those for the Netherlands, which the hon. Gentleman quoted as an illustration?
    What of the Commonwealth, the primary products of which come to us tariff-free? The economies of the Commonwealth countries have been interwoven with ours for years. Under this proposal, we should have to put a tariff on their goods, and then, after that, we should say to Germany, France, Italy and the rest, "We have put a tariff on our colleagues of the Commonwealth, but you can all come in and bring your foodstuffs tariff-free."
    What of the trade unions? They had better be careful about joining the Common Market. There is to 'be the "free-for-all" competition so beloved of the Liberal Party—laissez-faire. There will be a price war, as we had in the thirties, and we know where it led us. Many of these industries are competing with the same goods in this market, and I am sure that there will be a shook in store for those who live and work in some of our industries if they think that they will have a good time in the Common Market.
    Mr. Arthur Holt: I have been listening carefully to all the hon. Gentleman's arguments. Would
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    he say why it is, if these are his views, which I am sure they are, that they are not shared by the German and French Socialists, who are just as keen on the things which he has mentioned as he is? [HON. MEMBERS: "They are."] In their pronouncements, they have indicated that the Common Market is an excellent weapon for carrying out the plans they want.
    Mr. Blyton: I am not prepared to argue the merits or demerits of the Socialists of Europe, but I can tell the hon. Gentleman that I am terrified of linking up with President de Gaulle and Dr. Adenauer. I am afraid of what is going to happen in Italy in ten years' time, and of what may happen in Germany, and in France, and I am not prepared to throw the Commonwealth overboard for this set-up. That is my answer to the hon. Gentleman.
    I have had many interruptions, but I do not want to speak much longer. I regard the common external tariff of the Common Market as a threat to the under-developed countries of the world, just as I regard it as a threat to us. We are now seeing our Colonies getting independence, and we are not prepared to abandon them for Europe alone. Hon. Members may call me a Little Englander if they like, but these are my views, and to me the Commonwealth, while it is a great heritage from the past, is, I believe, the hope for the future, and has a vital part to play in improving East-West relations by helping to develop international co-operation.
    If society is to survive it must be realised that the centres of influence shift and they may not always be tied to Europe. A new world in Asia and Africa is coming in the not-too-distant future to redress the balance of the old, and I believe that it should be our aim to give them help.
    This is a matter of very grave importance to this country—
    Mr. Edwin Wainwright: Most important.
    Mr. Blyton:—and this Government, before they take this country into the Treaty of Rome, which is for ever— once one joins one cannot come out, according to this agreement—they ought

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    to go to the country and let the country decide, because when they were elected they had no mandate at all for this.
    8.26 p.m.
    Mr. Peter Walker: I think that the hon. Member for Houghton-le-Spring (Mr. Blyton) will understand it when I say that whilst I share his view on the Common Market in general, the reason which he gave for his view, of its being a barrier to the extension of Socialism, if that be true, is to me about the only attractive feature I can find for joining the Common Market.
    I think there have been two considerable changes of emphasis in the debate we have enjoyed today, compared with the debate last August. First, there has not been one speaker advocating our entry into the Common Market who has given the expansive and flattering picture of the potentialities of economic expansion which we had last August when this subject was debated. Nor has there been the same emphasis—alas—from the Front Bench on the safeguards for the Commonwealth of which we heard last August. It is on those two aspects of the debate that I should like to say a few words.
    Firstly, as to economic expansion, we must recognise that Europe has gone through a decade of economic boom, primarily resulting from the capital investment boom in those countries, a period of tremendous economic revival after the war, with an immense amount of American investment, which in itself created boom conditions which attracted investment from other parts of the world. During that decade, quite obviously, the production and the economies of the Common Market countries expanded.
    But let us learn a lesson from the Canadian picture. It was but a few years ago that all those economists who today support our entry into the Common Market for economic reasons were describing the beauties and excellencies of the Canadian market. They were talking about Canada in the same economic terms as economists speak about the Common Market today.
    Canada enjoyed a capital investment boom similar to that of Europe. Then, as do all capital investment booms, it went into a period in which certain com-
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    modities were suffering through overproduction. There are many indications today that the Common Market countries may well be entering a period when in many commodities they will be suffering from over-production. If we are not careful we shall not be part of the Common Market in the boom conditions like those of the fifties but in the more difficult period of the sixties.
    One of the features of this debate has been the constant reference by those who support entry into the Common-Market to the Commonwealth as something rather out of date and economically in decline. I wish to draw the attention of the House to the basic facts of Commonwealth trade as opposed to the general impression that has been created that Commonwealth trade is in decline and of diminishing importance. The Leader of the Liberal Party made reference to the fact that the moment Australia has difficulties it puts up tariff barriers and the moment Canada has problems she puts up tariff" barriers against British trade. He was suggesting that the picture was a diminishing Commonwealth economy.
    The right hon. Member for Bassetlaw (Mr. Bellenger) referred to the decline of Commonwealth trade in recent years, but what are the basic facts? A glance at the Trade and Navigation Returns shows that in the last three years when everyone has been given this impression of declining Commonwealth trade our exports to the Commonwealth have risen from £1,400 million to £1,450 million, not a decline but an increase. The fair thing to do is not to judge the trend of trade by figures for a year or a quarter. Taking the longer period—
    Mr. Wainwright: Will the hon. Member say why the N.E.D.C. advocates a 4 per cent. increase when the increase he has mentioned is far less than that?
    Mr. Walker: Those are two different things. One happens to refer to production and the other to exports. Let us examine the Commonwealth pattern of trade over the period of the decade in which Europe was enjoying boom conditions and the Commonwealth was suffering from the difficulties of low commodity prices and political uncertainties in certain spheres. Take the period from 1950 to 1960. It was good

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    for Europe and bad for the Commonwealth, but what was the pattern of trade in that period? Our exports to the Common Market countries increased by £280 million, but our exports to the Commonwealth increased by £451 million.
    Mr. Wainwright: What was the percentage?
    Mr. Walker: The hon. Member may quote percentages if he wishes. On the suggestion about percentages we should join a common market with Mauritius where our exports went up by 500 per cent. There is a false and dishonest use of percentages in relation to this question. It is time to make clear to the British public that at the moment our exports to the Commonwealth are of the order of £1,400 million a year and those to the Common Market are £611 million a year.
    What about the balance of trade, which is all-important? If we take last year's figures it is true that we had an adverse balance of trade in visible exports of something like £200 million with Commonwealth countries, but that was more than balanced by the favourable balance of invisible earnings of more than £230 million in that period. If we look at the Common Market position we see that last year we had an adverse balance of trade of something like £75 million in visible trade and with the non-sterling countries an adverse balance of invisible trade of something like £230 million.
    What of the argument that we must go into the Common Market because the Commonwealth wants capital and only by going into the Common Market can we get a strong economy which can provide investment for the underdeveloped territories? We have the Chief Economic Adviser to "Neddy" saying that if we go into the Common Market it is likely that our adverse balance of trade will increase. Are we to invest our increased adverse balance of trade? If we examine the possibilities and look at the economic balance sheet we find that probably we will increase exports to the Common Market countries and we also find the possibility from a balance of trade point of view that we shall be importing less from Commonwealth countries.
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    Those are the advantages in the balance of trade problem, but what are the disadvantages? First, we shall be importing far more from the Common Market than ever before. Secondly, we shall certainly lose a substantial part of our exports to the Commonwealth. That is our major export market. It is all right for hon. Members eager to join the Common Market to point out that this is a declining feature, but it is so gigantic a feature of our whole economic position that if it goes into decline because of our policies in entering the Common Market there will be serious economic and social disturbance and unemployment in this country.
    We are told that the possibilities of going into the Common Market are for some mystical reason not going to have that effect on Commonwealth trade. I say this in no spirit of hostility to the United States. I believe that our relationships with the United States and with the Common Market countries are of maximum importance in the context of the general struggle against Communism. Yet every time the Prime Minister returns from talking to President Kennedy and says with enthusiasm how President Kennedy is pleased—in spite of any adverse effects on the American economy—that we are going into the Common Market; while he is saying that in this country, all the American financial, business and economic experts are pointing out the great economic advantages to the United States of their capturing our Commonwealth markets.
    What is the balance of all these arguments? Obviously we want a friendly and cordial relationship with our friends in the Common Market countries, but we want the right sense of proportion. We must see that in this problem our economy is more tied in and more connected with the Commonwealth than with any other economic group. That is why I reject the accusation that those of us who are Commonwealth-minded are out-dated. I believe that the Commonwealth offers the most imaginative, positive and progressive opportunities to the younger generation available to this country, far more rewarding in terms of service and economic expansion than those which are offered by the already developed markets of Europe.

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    Here is our main economic position. We should endeavour to get together with the Prime Ministers of Commonwealth countries to see what general Commonwealth attitude we can take both to the United States and to the Common Market. It was suggested by my right hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Hall Green (Mr. Aubrey Jones) that it would be a great thing for the Commonwealth countries to have consultations with the Common Market. I agree with him. The difference between my right hon. Friend and myself is that I consider that in those consultations we should be part of the Commonwealth and not part of the Common Market, for as part of the Commonwealth in such negotiations, talks and agreements we can obviously give weight to the Commonwealth point of view.
    I conclude by asking the Government to answer what I consider are two basic questions which as yet are unanswered and which were avoided by my right hon. Friend the Lord Privy Seal. First, are the Government genuinely enthusiastic about going into a system of political federation in Europe? The Leader of the Liberal Party was quite correct in stating that as yet the Government have avoided facing the reality that much of Europe wants political federation and a European Parliament. If that is so, it would be a tragedy from the point of view of Europe, for this Government, if they do not wish to see such a federation, to join the Common Market and sabotage the movement towards federation. On the other hand, if the Government are enthusiastic for the cause of European federation, let my right hon. Friend state it perfectly clearly so that the country can understand that what is being offered to it is, over a period of years, joining a federation of Europe—not becoming an offshore island, but becoming an off-shore province of the European federation.
    Secondly, do the Government intend to stick to their original pledge to safeguard the Commonwealth situation, and safeguard it permanently? Over the past 12 months we have seen a constant lessening of emphasis in assurances to the Commonwealth. It commenced with the original promise that we would safeguard the Commonwealth position. It
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    then diminished to saying that we would safeguard its important interests. It then diminished to saying that we would safeguard its vital interests. It has now diminished to saying that we will safeguard its vital interests for a temporary period, provided that it does not upset our friends in the Common Market too much.
    Mr. Chataway: Is not this absolute nonsense, because the initial guarantee was repeated today?
    Mr. Walker: If my hon. Friend heard repeated today the guarantee that the rest of us heard 12 months ago, he is the exception. As to guarantees, the Government have already made terms about manufactured goods. At the end of 1970 the United Kingdom will be putting a common external tariff against Commonwealth imports and allowing free entry from the Common Market. That is the first indication of what future trends may be. I hope that I am wrong in my view about the indications.
    I ask this as a final question. I ask my right hon. Friend when he winds up the debate to say quite clearly that he wants to obtain permanent safeguards for Commonwealth trade. If he answers these two questions satisfactorily—by saying, first, that he is opposed to political federation and will if necessary veto a move towards European federation and, secondly, that he will permanently safeguard the Commonwealth interests—I shall certainly be far happier than I am at the moment.
    8.41 p.m.
    Mr. Maurice Edelman: It has been extremely refreshing to listen to the hon. Member for Worcester (Mr. Walker), particularly as nowadays it is becoming more and more rare to hear a Tory talk in terms of the expanding Commonwealth. On the contrary, it would seem from some of the speeches made by Tories that they have accepted in a wholly defeatist spirit the idea that the Commonwealth must shrivel away. Listening to the hon. Member for Halifax (Mr. Maurice Macmillan), I could not help feeling when he offered strictures against the Commonwealth for occasionally taking measures of protection that he was the one suffering from a guilty conscience.

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    rather like a husband who about to desert his wife and children accuses his wife of over-cooking the dinner. The charges which the hon. Member made were trivial. The charge that the Commonwealth from time to time has found it necessary to take certain measures to adjust its trade is of total unimportance compared with the tremendous amount of trade of mutual benefit, to which the hon. Member for Worcester properly referred.
    Before I come to my main theme, I want to refer to the speech of my right hon. Friend the Member for Bassetlaw (Mr. Ballenger) who, in the course of his strictures against the Commonwealth, took exception to the fact that the Daily Express had promoted the advertisement of Lord Montgomery's views in opposition to the Common Market. I hold no brief for the Daily Express, but I am obliged to say that in terms of lobbies promoting special interests the European movement has assembled more money and resources than any lobby I have ever heard of. Indeed, looking at the list of sponsors, the list of entertainments, and the list of publications, it is interesting to see how the names of certain bankers keep recurring, as if they are interested in European unity only because of the prospect of the freer exchange of capital so that they themselves might derive a specific benefit from it.
    We have heard today many references to European unity. I want briefly to touch on them, for two reasons. The first is that the Lord Privy Seal in his opening remarks understandably said that he would talk about negotiations and leave fundamentals to later speakers. It is necessary to talk about fundamentals, because most Members of Parliament know that talk to the ordinary man in the street reveals the fact that knowledge of what the Common Market is is conspicuous by its absence. He regards it as being a highly complex, technical problem, without recognising that what the Government are doing today is leading the nation into probably the most momentous decision in contemporary British history.
    Like many other hon. Members who are present today, I happened to be a delegate to the Council of Europe when
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    it was first formed in 1949. On that occasion I had the opportunity of listening to some of the debates on the basic themes which are now coming to fruition in the form of institutions. One of the words which were constantly in the mouths of delegates at the Council of Europe was the word "unity". At the time the Labour delegation was charged with dragging its feet on the question of unity. But nobody knew what it meant. Did it mean a federal Europe? Did it mean a united Europe, or did it simply mean an economic association, or a Europe in which there would be no barriers to the movement of men, materials and money? What European unity really meant was unspecified.
    When we began to understand a little more what it might mean the Conservative delegation at Strasburg had to state exactly what it meant by its charge against the Labour delegation of dragging its feet. It was asked if it was in favour of a federal Europe. The answer was, "No". It was asked if it was in favour of what at that time was the concept of European unity as it is today—although then it had not been formulated—and once again the answer was "No". This was because the present Minister of Education and the present Prime Minister realised that to try to reconcile the idea of a Commonwealth in a united Europe, in the form in which the Strasburg Assembly wanted it, was like trying to square the circle.
    Today, listening to the attempts to reconcile, by a tariff adjustment here and a quota adjustment there, the idea of a Commonwealth in the form of the European Economic Community as its present participants want it to be, is to hear exactly what one heard in 1949. I do not believe that it is possible to reconcile the existence of a Commonwealth in the form in which we know it with the prospects in the minds of those leading the Six today.
    How did the Six come into being? If the House will bear with me, I will offer it a few sentences setting out the history of those days. It came into being because many people in the Assembly, including the whole British delegation—Conservatives and Socialists alike—were opposed to the federal idea.

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    Only one person took a different view— the late R. W. G. Mackay, a fervent participant in the argument for federalism, who did a great deal to bring to life the great idea of the European Economic Community. On the whole, however, the delegations of both parties were opposed to the idea of European unity in the form put forward by those who today constitute the Six. As a result, there was a schism inside the Council. The Six broke away, and it was that break-away—the creation of the Little Europe—which was ultimately to lead to the Rome Treaty and the creation of the European Economic Community. I am sure that the Lord Privy Seal agrees that that is the history of the matter.
    The hon. Member for Worcester very properly asked the Lord Privy Seal to say to what extent the United Kingdom will be committed. to the concept of federalism which is so dear to the hearts of those who today control the Six. Only the other day we saw how the members of M.R.P. who entered the Pompidou Government in France resigned en bloc because they did not believe that President de Gaulle's federal idea for Europe went sufficiently far along the road to the kind of federalism which they favoured. General de Gaulle, for whom my admiration is second to no one, will not live for ever. One day he will yield, in the natural course of events, to others Whose view of Europe and whose administration of the E.E.C. must certainly be in the direction of a federal Europe. Therefore, I ask the Lord Privy Seal to consider whether he is not setting this country on the rails to a federal Europe, which will ultimately be the goal at which we will arrive if we follow present courses.
    Mr. John Harvey: Even if what the hon. Member says were vaguely true, does not he agree that a decision of that sort would be subject to a unanimous vote in the Council of Ministers—not to a qualified majority, but to a unanimous vote—and that therefore our own say and that of any of our E.F.T.A. friends who may come in with us would have a great deal of effect on the decision?
    Mr. Edelman: Whatever the constitutional settlement might be, it is certain that once we are in we are inside the
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    Community, and consequently all economic arrangements will ultimately produce political institutions—and those political institutions can be none other than federal institutions.
    I need only refer to what happened in the nineteenth century in Germany, with the Zollverein Customs Union, which led to the Confederation of States and ultimately to the German Empire. That is the natural development. First there are the economic associations and institutions, but ultimately these give way to federal, political institutions.
    There were other reasons why the Labour delegation at Strasbourg opposed the project which has resulted in the Common Market. My hon. Friend the Member for Houghton-le-Spring (Mr. Blyton), in his brilliant speech, very properly referred to the opposition which many of us felt about the laisser-faire passage of men and money throughout Europe in a way which will mean that Great Britain will certainly not be able to protect her economy in that respect. Indeed, when the Lord Privy Seal and the propagandists of the Common Market talk of the vast economic benefits which are to be obtained from our entry into the E.E.C. we must remember that the effect of our entry will be not merely to create a productive movement accumulating wealth for us in Europe. It will be a two-way movement. There will be a movement of products from Europe into Great Britain. Those products will be produced at costs which, in my opinion, will be substantially lower than the costs of production in Britain.
    When we talk about the benefits which are likely to accrue to the motor industry—an industry with which I happen to have been closely associated for seventeen years—from our entry into the Community, I must confess that I am dubious. In the first place, the countries of Europe in building up their motor industries have had a number of advantages. Germany has had the great influx of refugees which has provided a labour force and cheap rates. Germany has also been able to re-equip her industry after the dismantling which took place at the end of the war. The result is that if we go into the Common Market we shall be competing on extremely unfavourable terms, and if we

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    are not allowed to impose those tariffs which are, alter all, merely the adjustment necessary in order to do away with certain forms of, possibly, unfair or unfavourable competition, we shall be in serious difficulties.
    I turn now to the counterpart question of the Commonwealth. Does anybody seriously believe that it is possible for the Lord Privy Seal, on behalf of the Government, to negotiate away so many of the preferences which the Commonwealth enjoys in trade with us and still retain the Commonwealth in the same form and with the same sympathies as it has possessed in the past? We all know that the Commonwealth today, having been transformed from an empire, is a Commonwealth which has two fundamental forms of cement. The first is the Crown, which is the sentimental link between the members of the Commonwealth. The other, clearly, is the economic and material benefit which the Commonwealth countries derive from their association with Great Britain. There is the material advantage which they receive from the fact that as associates with the mother country they are able to enjoy preferential benefits which focus and direct them towards Great Britain.
    I am convinced that once these preferences are done away with, even if certain transitional benefits are negotiated, the Commonwealth will disintegrate. I cannot believe for one moment that if the cement of Commonwealth preferences is dug away by the process of negotiating with the Common Market in the form in which it has been taking place the structure of the Commonwealth will hold out. However important the symbol of the Crown may be, I do not believe that that alone is capable of uniting the very different peoples of the Commonwealth and binding them to the mother country.
    I happen to believe—my hon. Friends do so, too—that the transformation of the empire into the Commonwealth has been one of the great progressive manifestations of the history of mankind. The way in which countries formerly dominated have turned with sympathy and respect to the mother country which gave them liberty is something which I am sure has been
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    the admiration of peoples all over the world. Indeed, our example has been followed by France. There we see a mother country which has given liberty to countries which it formerly dominated.
    But I am convinced that the forces which are tugging the countries of the Commonwealth away from association with Great Britain are very powerful. The United States is drawing Canada and Australia to herself. The Soviet Union is making great efforts to attract to herself what my right hon. Friend the Member for Bassetlaw unfortunately called the black countries of the Commonwealth. These activities are going on simultaneously. They are drawing the countries of the Commonwealth away from Great Britain.
    Does anyone imagine that if there ceases to be any real, valid material link between the countries of the Commonwealth and Great Britain the association—which, after all, is one without a constitution; it is an association which functions by consent alone—can possibly hold together? What is the alternative that is offered? It is entry into an association with countries which may well, after all the propaganda which has been put out in respect of their so-called boom, find themselves in the next decade in serious economic difficulties.
    If one looks at the nature of the progress which has been made within the Common Market countries, it is obvious that a great deal of it has been due to an influx of capital and other resources. It has been due to an influx of labour force from the refugees. It has been due to the Monnet Plan which was started as long ago as 1944 and re-equipped the whole of the French industry. It has been due to the aid which the Americans gave Italy. All these are factors of the greatest importance. I value them, and I believe they were worth while doing. But let us not delude ourselves and believe that there is something mystical about the Common Market which has somehow or other so elevated the spirit of the Common Market countries that they have made these staggering advances in production.
    I now part company from the hon. Member for Worcester. The reason for the defeatism which has crept into the

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    country and made the right hon. Gentleman go crawling to the countries of the Common Market to obtain favourable terms, is that during the last ten years the economy of Britain has stagnated. It is because while we should have preoccupied ourselves with revitalising Commonwealth trade we have allowed it to go by default. Our industrialists have been apathetic. They turned to the easy markets of the world. The result has been stagnation in production and trade.
    Is the alternative to going into the Common Market merely to accept the status quo? Is it merely to accept the fact that we must sit passively while our economies dwindle? I do not believe that to be the case. I believe that it is possible under a dynamic Government —which the present Government certainly is not—for Britain so to revitalise her links with the Commonwealth that we shall really have the concept of the expanding Commonwealth which was once, I believe, a principle of the Conservative Party.
    I think that in the age in which we live when electronics and space discoveries have opened great new vistas to mankind, where despite the fact that the countries of the Commonwealth are, very properly, industrialising themselves, we as the mother country should be leading them and giving them guidance to open up new prospects of trade and production and techniques which, after all, it should be our destiny to offer.
    I do not believe that if we go into the Common Market our Commonwealth can survive. I believe that will be a disaster not only for Britain but for the whole world. I believe that if we go into the Common Market our fate will not be the stimulating force which some hon. Members very sincerely believe it might be. I believe that we shall merely become a small marginal State on the fringe of a great Continental federation. I can well believe that Dr. Adenauer and President de Gaulle smile when they say good-bye to our Prime Minister. After all, at the end of the war it was the representatives of those defeated countries which came together in order to form this so-called united Europe. Let us not forget that the concept of the United Europe was a concept of the defeated and the occupied. One of the reasons why Great Britain
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    and the neutral countries stood aside was that we with the satisfaction of victory and the neutrals with the satisfaction of abstinence felt that we had the power and the authority to go our own way pursuing our own policies and our own courses.
    But I believe that the prospect of a Britain without a Commonwealth, or with perhaps only the rump of a Commonwealth, is a very bleak one indeed. I believe it is a prospect of a Britain made powerless because the links of the European Economic Community may well prove to be bonds. I believe that we shall be powerless because we shall have been reduced to a "Little England" on the margin of a Continent, powerless because our world-wide allies will have drifted into new associations. I believe that we shall be powerless because whereas we once spoke as the leader of a great Commonwealth, inside the European Economic Community we shall merely have become a single unit.
    I believe in European unity, but I do not believe that the way in which the Lord Privy Seal and the present Government have gone about it is the right way. I believe that there are other ways to European unity. There are many roads to Rome, but I believe that the Treaty of Rome is the wrong way to get there. I believe that the Treaty of Rome is merely a map showing the way to destruction. Because of that, I oppose the Common Market in its present form.
    9.2 p.m.
    Sir Alexander Spearman (Scarborough and Whitby): The hon. Member for Coventry, North (Mr. Edelman) and I agree in our wish to help the Commonwealth. One of the many things on which we disagree is how to help it. I believe that if we do not join we shall be able to help it much less than we do today, and that if we do join it we shall be able to help it much more than we do today.
    The Leader of the Opposition attempted in his speech today to minimise the economic advantages or disadvantages of going in. Perhaps he had to take that line to justify his position of being much more neutral in this matter than many of his hon. Friends. I thought that he went rather far in

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    saying that no economist of any repute had advocated going in for its great economic advantages. Sir Geoffrey Crowther, Lord Robbins, Lord Plowden and Lord Franks have all put on record their belief that there are enormous economic advantages in going in and disasters in staying out. They are all men of very wide economic experience in Government service.
    The hon. Member for Coventry, North like others on both sides of the House who oppose our entry into the Common Market, appeared to assume that things will remain very much as they are if we do not enter the Market, and that we shall 'be just as well off and just as able to help the Commonwealth as we are today. I believe that that is entirely wrong, and I will try to give my reasons why I believe that if we do not enter, our experience in the 1960s and 1970s will be entirely different from our experience in the 1950s.
    I believe that it will be ever-increasingly difficult to find an adequate market for our industrial exports. I do not feel at all confident that we shall be able to retain our present position in the world or indeed in the Commonwealth. If we are to retain that position, it is clear that there are at least four things which we must do. First, we must maintain the stability of sterling. I think that the whole House agrees about that. Secondly, we must take our full share in the defence of the West. Thirdly, we must make our proper contribution towards the development of the poorer areas. Fourthly, and in particular, we have to be able to buy the exports of the Commonwealth and to provide the Commonwealth with capital. This will be possible only if we have a far bigger surplus on our balance of payments than we have had since the war. That means that we must achieve a massive increase in our exports.
    I want to examine what are the chances of achieving that increase in the Commonwealth. Recent history in respect of the old Commonwealth-Canada, Australia and New Zealand—is not encouraging. The prospects are not good. Their imports are rising much more slowly than those elsewhere. In
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    the last few years world exports to Western Europe and the United States have more than doubled, whereas exports to the sterling area and Canada have risen by less than half. Between 1954 and 1961, United Kingdom exports to Western Europe rose by 60 per cent. and to the Sterling area and Canada by 16 per cent. Today the Commonwealth countries—and we can all understand it —are determined to industrialise so as to raise their standard of living by creating industries; and those infant industries require protection—hence their tariffs and hence the erosion of our preferences. There is no indication whatever that they are prepared to throw their industries open to competition from this country. Canada is buying more and more from the United States and Australia is buying more and more from Japan, with the result that they are buying a smaller proportion from this country. That is why Canada refused the suggestion of free trade between us and them at the Montreal conference.
    If we take the new Commonwealth, the African and Asian countries, I accept that there are immense prospects in the distant future of enormous trade with them, but it will be impossible for them to buy and pay for vast imports from us or anyone else until there has been a huge injection of capital to build up their factories and equipment—and that is a long way off.
    Exports from this country have been changing their direction. For the first four months of this year, 31·6 per cent. of our exports went to the Commonwealth and 38·6 per cent. went to Western Europe. If we are out of the Common Market when the full rigour of the change in tariffs takes place, can we hope to keep our place in that expanding market? How can we hope that our manufacturers will be able to jump those tariffs when their competitors will be able to send in their goods free?
    First, there must be a great risk that if we are out of the Common Market when they have abolished the tariffs between themselves, in order to make the necessary cut in prices, we shall either have to devalue or have such a violent deflation here as immensely to depress the standard of living. Secondly, our rivals in the Common Market, as they then would be, could reduce their

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    costs by mass-production methods. Thirdly, there is no doubt that an enormous amount of investment will be diverted away from this country into the Common Market, with a consequent effect on the standard of living and employment in this country.
    I realise that our entry into the Common Market does not guarantee that we shall get these exports, but it gives us an opportunity to compete on level terms, and it means that for the first time we shall have access to a mass market. There are many industries in this country for which the home market alone will not support units of the most economic size. Moreover, spreading research expenditure over a much wider volume of sales reduces unit costs, so that if we enter the community and have this mass market I believe that it will make a big contribution towards greater growth in the economy, because it will be possible to extend research. We should remember that the United States is the richest country in the world, not because she has greater resources or greater ingenuity but because she has a huge home market. But the markets of Western Europe and this country together would be far bigger than that of the United States.
    If only we can increase our exports, we can be far more valuable to the Commonwealth whether we are in the Market or not. But if we cannot get those exports, inevitably we shall have to buy less and inevitably we shall be able to supply the Commonwealth with less capital. In those circumstances, we shall not get much gratitude from, or make much closer links with, the Commonwealth for having stayed out of the Common Market.
    Sometimes I think that hon. Members who oppose our entry on the grounds of the Commonwealth are too concerned with the proportion of our imports from the Commonwealth. It is not that that matters but how much they sell. To take an extreme case supposing that 100 per cent. of our imports come from the Commonwealth I am sure that we would help the Commonwealth much less because we would be so much poorer. It is better for the Commonwealth to have one slice of a big cake than the whole of a minute one.
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    If the economic reasons for going in seem to me to be very strong, the political reasons are overwhelming. I believe that the origin of the Common Market was not economic but political. I quote from The Times of 3rd March a speech by the French Foreign Secretary:
    "Our objective is first and essentially political …"
    He added:
    "Western Europe, united and solidly allied to the United States, will become one of the essential elements of the free world: with the Americans, it will be the guarantee of survival."
    I believe that the formation of the Common Market was the realisation by the Six—and this was put very clearly by my right hon. Friend the Member for Flint, West (Mr. Birch) in his admirable speech last August—that their quarrels, which had divided Europe so often in the past and led to so many wars, made no sense today. They knew that today there was nothing to gain but everything to lose by war, nothing to gain because none of them could have any hope of dominating Europe—at least, I hope that that is true—and everything to lose because now war is totally destructive. Therefore, they decided so to interweave their economies that war between them would be impossible. That is an ideal which we ought most enthusiastically to support.
    To me, the dominating question today which must be paramount above everything else is how we are to defend our free way of life from the threat of Communist tyranny and how we are to keep the peace. Economic barriers must lead to political divisions and then we should be far more vulnerable to the Communist threat. If Western Europe were politically and economically united, it would be not only a richer but, far more important, a far safer place to live in; certainly all the Kremlin sympathisers and Kremlin dupes seam to think that in their opposition to the uniting of the West.
    We have to face the fact that we cannot insulate ourselves from Europe. We have tried often enough in the past to keep out, but whenever trouble has come, we have been in it. Why not make every conceivable contribution now to preventing that trouble from occurring? If anyone has doubts of the

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    wisdom of the leadership of the Common Market countries, that seems the greater reason why we should be taking part in its councils and doing all we can to shape policy.
    Walter Lippmann put this very well when he wrote of the British entry into the Common Market in these words:
    "But I count on her great political experience, wisdom and her tradition of moderation —and her world-wide interest—to be a very enlightening Power in Europe which otherwise might tend to become parochial. Powerful but parochial."
    Powerful it is bound to be. It is our job to see that it is not parochial, and that is primarily how we can help the Commonwealth.
    We have been a great nation for a very long time. Perhaps that has been due to our sterling qualities, but I suggest that it may be due to a rather more humdrum quality—our ability to adapt ourselves to changing circumstances, and all history shows that we have done that. Circumstances have changed a great deal. We are no longer richer than other countries. Let us face the fact that we are no longer able to defend ourselves by ourselves. In this world of three giants, America, Western Europe and Russia, we are not big enough to exert the influence which we used to have, and it is mere pretence to think that we are.
    What are we to do? Shall we go to the United States and try to form a link with it, going as a poor relation? It may be we shall have to do that if we do not go into the Common Market. But here we have the opportunity of becoming a powerful partner of a powerful group. I profoundly hope that these negotiations succeed. I pay great tribute to my right hon. Friend for his skill and his determination, and I wish him all success.
    9.18 p.m.
    The Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Mr. Christopher Soames): It is natural that attention in the debate should have been concentrated on the broad and great issues which concern us, on the Commonwealth connection and on the relationship between this country and Europe and on the future role of Britain in world affairs. But the outcome of these negotiations will turn as
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    much as on anything else on the question of agriculture and food from the Commonwealth and from our own land.
    My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations will be talking tomorrow about the Commonwealth aspect of these matters. Anyone who has studied the arrangements hitherto reached by the Six for a common agricultural policy will appreciate their considerable complications, and it might be of help if I say something in the middle of the debate on these arrangements, how they would affect our home agriculture, the extent of, and the reasons for, the adaptations to these policies and the extensions of them which my right hon. Friend the Lord Privy Seal is putting to the Six in his negotiations.
    We have to start from the proposition that the system of agricultural protection through deficiency payments which we have is not one which the Six would themselves be ready to adopt. It has served us well, with only 4 per cent. of our population engaged in agriculture and importing a high proportion of our foodstuffs. But even here in this country the pressures are growing on this system as the level of food supplies on the free market increases. Such a system of agricultural support would not be acceptable to the Community with about 20 per cant. of its population involved in agriculture.
    The Community's system of support is based on management of the home market in such a way as to provide the farmer with his return from the market itself. From the farmer's point of view, this is in itself not a cause for worry, for what matters to him is the return that he gets for his products rather than the source from which the payment comes. Under the Community's system what is also of the greatest importance to him is that the market should be managed in such a way that he can expect to obtain fair and proper prices for his produce.
    It would only be possible to bring about the changeover from our system to that of the Community gradually, for as we raise market prices here at home to fit in with the Community's system so that producers get an increasing part of their return as the years go on from the market, as opposed to obtaining it from deficiency payments, so will retail

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    prices have to rise. This will be accompanied by reductions to the taxpayer in the deficiency payments bill, but—and this point has been made more than once in the debate—if consumption is not to be affected the price rises must be as gradual as possible and over a long period. It is this aspect of the matter, together with the question of the time which we shall need to make a gradual and orderly transition from our agricultural system to theirs, that was in our minds when we sought from the Six a long transitional period.
    The timetable which the Six have set themselves for the commodities on which they have already made regulations involves reaching the full Common Market stage by 1970. For certain other commodities, notably beef and veal, still in the stage of proposals by Commission but not yet having gone before the Council of Ministers, there are even earlier dates.
    We do not seek to change the timetable for the Six but to get some greater latitude where this is essential to meet our special problems both in regard to the considerable extent of the change which we will have to bring about in our agricultural system of support, and also with regard to the considerable extra increase of prices which will occur on our market us opposed to the markets of the European countries whose systems are not all that different from that which the Community is proposing in this respect.
    What of the agricultural policies of the Six within this system? So far they have not evolved a full agricultural policy in our sense of the term. What they have up to the moment is a series of arrangements for different commodities, some agreed upon, and others in the proposal stage. It is a series of decisions or proposals for specific commodities. It is not a full agricultural policy in our sense of the term.
    It is our case that some of the commodity arrangements will need to be adapted to suit the changed conditions of an enlarged Community. But, more important still, we believe that these series of arrangements need to be pulled together within a comprehensive agricultural policy, and it is on these two points—individual commodity arrangements and the concept of a comprehen-
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    sive agricultural policy—that l wish to say something.
    Firstly, the different commodity arrangements. The cereals arrangements provide for maintaining the internal price of cereals within the Community market at target levels which have yet to be determined, and insulating those target prices from movements in world market prices by means of a system of variable levies on imports.
    The levies will be broadly equal to the difference between the world market price of the cereal in question and the corresponding target price within the Community. In addition, there will be an intervention price fixed at between 5 and 10 per cent. below the target price, and this is the price at which the intervention authority within the Community—which will be a cereals office as part of the Community organisation—will be required to buy any wheat, barley, or rye, of the required quality offered by growers at this intervention price. This is to ensure that the market price does not fall below the intervention price. During the transitional period a preferential rate of levy will apply to trade among Community countries, but thereafter there will be common prices within the Community.
    Generally speaking, we believe that this machinery has within it the means of preserving a balance between producer interests and the Community's interest as a major importer. Here I take up the point made by the Leader of the Opposition who said that this was taking protection to an almost absurd degree with all these arrangements of target prices, levies, intervention prices, and so on. The point I would put to him is that it is not something which is illiberal of itself. The system of ensuring that a farmer gets his return from a market is not necessarily any more liberal or illiberal than is the system of guaranteed prices.
    What will determine the amount of any particular cereal which is grown within the Community, and, therefore, the amount which the Community requires to import from outside, is the price at which the target price is set. It is the price policies they pursue which will determine it and not the system.
    Where the levies are concerned, I think one must differentiate between the

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    levy system, which is a system devised to ensure that the price within the Community is the price which is desired, on the one hand, and what happens to the levy, on the other, and it was the latter to which the right hon. Gentleman referred.
    What we have to put to the Six is that it must be right that the distribution of this levy within the Community, is fair as between the different countries. The Six ran into trouble when discussing proposals put up by the Commission on the use of the levy, but they have decided on what is to be done for two, or at the most three, years ahead, and it is open, after that. My right hon. Friend will be putting to the Six that the way in which these levies are used, and the contributions made to the central Community funds out of the levy by the different countries, should be in a fair proportion as between countries.
    Mr. Gaitskell: Is it not the case that, because we shall be much the largest country within the Common Market—if we went into it—we should also be by far the biggest contributors to this levy? What exactly is proposed? Is it that some of this should come back to us, or is it that what we pay would in some way come back? What is fair, in the right hon. Gentleman's mind? For instance, would it be fair if a large part of what we paid nevertheless went to European agriculture?
    Mr. Soames: This is very much like the situation with which Germany was faced within the existing Community. Germany had the same difficulty, but they found a way to deal with it. The fact that we are a large importer means that we will be raising large levies. It means that what we have to ensure is that the proportion of these levies which we have to pay to the Community fund is fair as between this country and those importing less in terms of quantities. But the levy is only part of the Community funds, which also come from budgetary and Exchequer contributions, and these have to be taken into account together.
    As the Community moves over to a common price, it will mean some adjustments in cereal price levels in all countries' markets, but, so far as producer prices are concerned, although the level
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    of future prices in the Common Market stage has not yet been decided, it seems likely, from the evidence so far before us, that our growers could expect to get considerably more for the wheat and something more for the barley than they get under the present guaranteed prices.
    Mr. Turton: Will my right hon. Friend clear up this point, which is very important? In the Common Market agricultural policy, is it not laid down that the size of the budgetary contribution and the amount of the levy paid over after the initial period depends on the quantity of food which a particular country imports?
    Mr. Soames: No, Sir. This was in the original proposal, but what has been decided in the Council of Ministers when they examined this is that they should fix a proportion for two or three years' ahead, and after that, it is open for decision by the Council of Ministers as to what the proportion should be as between the countries. It will not be the same, necessarily, as was originally proposed by the Commission.
    Mr. Gaitskell: Was that decision taken by a qualified majority vote?
    Mr. Soames: No. It will be the figure within the next three years, whatever is ruling at the time.
    Mr. Gaitskell: Was the decision taken by a qualified majority?
    Mr. Soames: I should require notice of that.
    Of course, it would not be in the interests of either our consumers or our livestock producers or of our Commonwealth suppliers to see the prices of cereals too high, but whatever the price level may be, because we have had hitherto a free market with deficiency payments, there is bound to be a large upward movement in market prices—greater than applies to other countries—and we would need time for the levy system to take over from that deficiency payment, so that the consequent rise in the price of bread and animal feeding-stuffs is not too steep.
    In the same way as with cereals, a regulation approved by the Council of Ministers for pigmeat is due to come Into effect on 1st July this year. During

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    the transitional period, trade between member countries is to be regulated by means of a system of gradually reducing levies.
    After the transitional period there will, of course, be no barrier to trade within the Community, but trade with other countries will be regulated by levies and also a form of minimum import prices. The present regulation was drafted by the Six to meet the needs of the Community, as it is, but if the United Kingdom and Denmark enter the Community, then the Community will include all the major importers and exporters of pigmeat, and this will create a different situation. Denmark is one of the major producers, and we ourselves are big producers and importers, and if we came in this would require, as we see it, a fresh look at the regulations, in order to fit them for the purpose of an enlarged Community where there will be few imports and also negligible outlets for any surpluses.
    Mr. W. Baxter: I should like some clarification of this. The right hon. Gentleman said that there would be a central buying authority for wheat and barley. We in Scotland depend a great deal on the production of oats. What are the right hon. Gentleman's proposals for that?
    Mr. Soames: The proposals for oats at the moment within the Six are that, as the prices of wheat and barley and rye are all to be controlled by means of the levy and target prices and intervention prices, oats, of which they are, of course, comparatively small consumers, will be controlled by the normal pull of the market, according to the prices of other cereals. This is the viewpoint of the Six as at present. Our view is that, if this should prove sufficient to ensure that the market for oats is at a reasonably stable level, as the Six think it will be, that will fit our bill; but if it is not, then we have got to ensure that some type of arrangements are made for oats, if it be necessary.
    The pigmeat situation will be changed very considerably by the entry of ourselves and Denmark into the Community and will require, as I was saying, some modifications and adaptations in what was drawn up for the Community of the Six.
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    The story is much the same, indeed, for eggs, since this is another commodity of which the Six alone are considerable importers, whereas an enlarged Community, including ourselves and Denmark, would be nearly self-sufficient from the start. So this, again, will need, we believe, a fresh look. From our point of view there will certainly be much stricter control than at present over imports of eggs into this country from countries outside the Community.
    The Commission in Brussels has recently put forward draft regulations for dairy products. The proposals are not yet complete and they have not yet been agreed by the Six, but they envisage for milk a target price at the farm gate coupled with threshold prices for milk products entering at the frontier—and intervention prices on the Community market for butter.
    The market for manufacturing milk is, of course, of much greater relative importance on the Continent than here where a much higher proportion of milk goes for liquid consumption at the more profitable levels. Roughly speaking, 70 per cent. to 75 per cent. of our milk goes for liquid consumption, whereas about 70 per cent. of the Continental milk production goes for manufacture. What we have to agree with the Six is how to reconcile these interests of the liquid market and the manufacturing market together with the interests of our Commonwealth suppliers, especially New Zealand.
    Our negotiations are taking place at a time when the general surplus of butter in the Western World has forced us to quota imports to this country. If we joined the Community we should have the further problem of harmonising the price of butter here with the price in the Six. This process of adjustment must be very gradual if we are to avoid a pronounced switch away from butter consumption and therefore smaller outlets for the Commonwealth in this market.
    So far as concerns our own affairs, a key feature will be the arrangements for the liquid milk market and on this the Commission has yet to put forward its proposal. We believe that there is a lesson to be learned for the Community from the highly successful activities of

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    the Milk Marketing Board and the distributive trades in recent years in cultivating the liquid milk market at profitable price levels. It must be in the interests of producers, not only in this country, to encourage increasing consumption especially of liquid milk. These are the thoughts which will guide us in our talks with the Six on this section acknowledged to be particularly difficult.
    For beef, too, the Commission has recently introduced draft regulations—
    Mr. John Morris: Before the right hon. Gentleman leaves the question of milk, will he tell the House, having regard to the decreasing profitability of milk in the last few years, what dangers there are of liquid milk being imported from the Continent if we enter the Common Market?
    Mr. Soames: There would be a considerable extra haulage cost if it were to come in. To get his milk distributed in any of the big conurbations here would cost the producer in, say, Holland or Denmark infinitely more than it would cost our home producers to do the same. We have in this country an organisation of producers and distributors which is very closely knit and efficiently organised. I should not expect the prospects to be high for what the hon. Member has suggested.
    For beef, too, the Commission has recently issued a draft regulations for consideration—
    Mr. A. Woodburn: Has the right hon. Gentleman finished with butter? I am not quite clear what the relationship is between New Zealand butter and Danish butter and how it is reconciled with the switch which might come to margarine.
    Mr. Soames: We have, of course, very much in our minds the problem of the increase over the years in our price of butter which will be entailed in moving over to a harmonised price in the Community, whatever that price may be. It is in our interests that it should be not too high a price compared with what it is now in some countries of Europe. It should be a gradual change over a long enough period so that the move upwards in prices is not likely to
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    detract from the consumption levels of butter to which we have been accustomed in this country.
    The price of butter has moved considerably in the past years at home and we have seen how that has affected consumption, but it has been notable that when it has moved gradually the effect on consumption has been considerably less than when the movement has been rapid. This is a mast important feature in the harmonisation of our arrangements with those of the Six. Of course access far New Zealand butter into this country, to which the right hon. Member has referred, is a vital point in our negotiations with them.
    For beef the Commission has issued draft regulations for consideration by the Council of Ministers. Imports will be regulated by means of the common external tariff, levies, and by import licensing of frozen beef and other beef products. Their objectives include maintaining the output of beef and veal, from within the Community supporting farm income and helping to reduce pressure in the dairy sector.
    Since Community prices are at present considerably well above our market prices here it may well be that the Community guide price they intend to set for beef would be at a satisfactory level for our producers. But even granted that the rise in retail prices would be smaller than the rise in market or wholesale prices, for the sake of the consumer we should need to bring about this rise—as in the case of butter—over a long period of time. We also want to be sure that the proposed mechanisms will be adequate to maintain producers' returns within reasonable tolerances at the level of the guide price.
    Where mutton and lamb is concerned there are virtually no arrangements made yet, except for a 20 per cent. tariff. That is understandable as it is a commodity Which has little interest for the Six. It is essentially a United Kingdom and Commonwealth problem. We believe that it should be possible to devise arrangements which could give reasonable protection for producers here and in the Commonwealth and at the same time satisfy the Six that the price level for mutton and lamb will not be allowed to undermine the price level of other meats of primary concern to them.

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    Our horticulture has been supported through tariffs or other restrictions on imports rather than through guaranteed prices and deficiency payments. It comes into a special category and a separate working party in Brussels is examining our problems, which are considerable.
    The decision adopted by the Community for fruit and vegetables has three main features—the compulsory grading of all produce sold; the abolition by the end of 1965 of quantitative restrictions on mast imports from other member countries; and the progressive reduction and abolition by the end of 1969 of the tariff against other member countries, coupled with the imposition of a common tariff on imports from third countries.
    The timetable that the Community has adopted for the application of grading standards and for the removal of tariffs and import restrictions may be suitable for the present member countries, which have already had about five years to prepare themselves for this. But it is certainly not suitable for us. We must ensure that our industry is given sufficient time to adjust itself and that we can help the industry to make the best use of that time by equipping itself to meet the changed circumstances. In a word, we have put to the Six that the transition from our present horticultural policies to a Common Market regime must be carried out over a long period of time and in such a way as to enable the efficient grower in this country to continue to make a satisfactory living.
    Mr. Frederick Peart: How long?
    Mr. Soames: Considerably longer than they themselves will have. It is a complicated question. It is not a question of a given period of time during which there is to be a particular occurrence. It is a question of a series of events drawn out over a period of years. What matters is the rate at which the tariff has to be reduced over the years.
    Arrangements for individual commodities, important as they are, are only part of the story of an agricultural policy. The enlarged Community will be such a formidable agricultural trading bloc that it will need to strike a fine balance between its responsibilities towards its own agricultural com-
    606
    munity, on the one hand, and its responsibilities as a major importer of foodstuffs, with all that that means in terms of world trade, on the other. We think that these individual commodity arrangements must be drawn together into a co-ordinated and comprehensive policy based on the objectives set out in the Treaty of Rome.
    To achieve this, we are persuaded that the Community will need a system of annual reviews in order to look, not only at the trends of production and returns for individual commodities, but at the economic conditions and prospects of agriculture as a whole, its relationship to the whole economy, and how the pricing policies which have been pursued in the past have affected the levels of production within the Community, and also the trade in foodstuffs with the outside world
    We see annual reviews working in the following way. They would be carried out for each member country based on an agreed framework of criteria and statistics. These reviews, together with any comments which national Governments might wish to make upon them, would be forwarded to the Commission, which would be responsible for collating them into a Community review. It would be as a result of this review, which would take into account the internal and external effects of the pricing policies and other arrangements of the past year, that the Council of Ministers would take decisions which would become effective in the year ahead. An annual review is not an end in itself. To be effective, the regulations for the different commodities must enable the Council of Ministers to influence prices and production levels and ensure that within reasonable tolerances producers can achieve the prices which are set.
    Without these means we do not see how the Community could implement the objectives in the Treaty of Rome, particularly those Articles which are designed to safeguard the standard of living of the agricultural industries in the member countries.
    We are making proposals on the length of the transitional period. We are making proposals on individual commodities and on the annual review. These proposals are designed to add up

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    to a constructive and responsible agricultural policy in the interests of the Community as a whole. We accept that it must be based on the management of markets. We believe that the concept inherent in our system of agricultural policy, namely of it being an agricultural policy as an entity in itself, to be looked at in the round through the medium of an annual review and all that flows from it, should be embodied in a Community agricultural policy. We must not forget that such a policy must be effective against a background of growing production of food in the Western world as a whole, and a considerable agricultural potential for greater production both in Europe and throughout the Western world.
    This will require liberal price policies within the Community, and will also call for a careful balance between the Community's external responsibilities and its declared objectives for agriculture. We attach great importance to seeing that the greater measure of competition inherent in the common policy leads to a levelling up of the standard of living in agriculture, which indeed is written into the Rome Treaty. The fact is that a Community of 250 million people, including within it the greatest single commercial importer of food in the world, will have to have a highly responsible agricultural policy to balance the interests of the trade between this great Community and the outside world—with all that it could mean and all the effect it could have upon third countries—on the one hand with, on the other, its responsibilities towards its agricultural communities. The fact that such a delicate balance will have to be drawn means that it must be a total, comprehensive and pretty sophisticated agricultural policy as a whole, by means of which influence can be brought to bear both upon pricing policies and also upon levels of production.
    I know that voices on the Continent have said that what we are aiming at is to bring about a greater degree of assurance for agriculture. What we are really trying to do is to put to them the sort of policy which we believe is the
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    right one for the whole Community. We are looking at the question through those eyes and from that point of view. We believe that the sort of policy we have put forward will be needed by the enlarged Community if it is to follow the way of responsibility in its agricultural affairs.
    Sir Harry Legge-Bourke: As agricultural progress has been so slow among the Six, and in view of the enormous complexity of what is yet to be done, can we have an assurance that if an agricultural policy has not been arrived at by the time we have the Prime Ministers' Conference the Prime Ministers of the Commonwealth will not be asked to agree blindly to our going into the Six?
    Mr. Soames: There are two aspects to this matter. There is the effect of the agricultural policies on the levels of imports into this country and the Community from the Commonwealth, and also the effect of the agricultural policies upon our home industry. On both these points assurances have been given many times by my right hon. Friends, including the Prime Minister. We have said that we could not suggest to the House that negotiations should be concluded unless we can see from both points of view, that satisfactory arrangements are made.
    Mr. Peart: The Minister has said that this a sophisticated policy. When the details are worked out, shall we be presented with them? There is a lot of uncertainty in the matter. Are we going to decide to go in when the details are presented? The Minister has been very vague. He has given merely vague generalisations about the European set-up.
    Mr. Soames: The hon. Member knows well that they have only got through a handful of commodities in the arrangements which they have already decided upon themselves. Others will be resolved in the course of the next few months—
    It being Ten o'clock, the Motion for the Adjournment of the House lapsed, without Question put.

    INTERNATIONAL WHEAT COUNCIL (IMMUNITIES AND PRIVILEGES)
    10.0 p.m.
    The Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Peter Thomas): I beg to move,
    That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that the International Wheat Council (Immunities and Privileges) Order, 1962, be made in the form of the draft laid before this House on 30th May.
    This Order is required to enable Her Majesty's Government to accept the International Wheat Agreement of 1962, which was signed in Washington on behalf of Her Majesty's Government on 10th May, 1962, and which, it is hoped, will come into force on 16th July. The present Council was established by the International Wheat Agreement of 1949. Since that time it has always chosen to maintain its premises and hold its meetings in London. The fact that the Council has its headquarters here is an important factor in keeping London as the centre of the international wheat trade.
    The United Kingdom is among the leading world importers of wheat, and has a direct interest in the successful operation of the Agreement. It was for this reason that the United Kingdom rejoined the Agreement in 1959, when it was reframed to match new developments in the international wheat market.
    As I have said, the Council was established by the International Wheat Agreement of 1949; Her Majesty's Government were signatories to the 1949 Agreement, but withdrew from the Council in 1953. The headquarters of the Council, however, remained in London.
    Since, under the 1950 Act—which is referred to in the Preamble to the Order —it is not possible to accord privileges by Order in Council to any international organisation of which the United Kingdom is not a member, Income Tax exemption on the salaries of the Council's non-British officials was secured for them by means of Section 25 of the Finance Act, 1954.
    When Her Majesty's Government rejoined the Council and when, in 1959, an Order conferring legal capacity on the Council gave effect in the United
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    Kingdom to the new International Wheat Agreement of that year, Section 25 was retained. The Section corresponded exactly with the entitlement of the non-British officers under the Agreement, and it was, therefore, unnecessary to provide separately for these officers under the Order. This is still the case, and it is, therefore, thought that no useful purpose would be served by repealing Section 25 and by, instead, providing in the Order for the qualifying officers, of whom there are in any case only four at present.
    The present Order confers two privileges on the International Wheat Council. First, it gives it the legal capacity of a body corporate. Secondly—this is the only respect in which it differs from its predecessors—it grants the Council exemption from rates and taxes. By exemption from rates is meant that the Council will be excused payment of that proportion of the rates earmarked by the local authorities for services from which it is deemed not to derive direct benefit. The proportion of the rates which is devoted to services, such as street lighting or the fire brigade, from which the Council benefits or may benefit will still be charged to the Wheat Council. Similarly, the Council is not altogether divested of its tax obligations since it will have to pay the usual Customs dues on imports.
    Therefore, what the present Order does is to bring the Wheat Council into line in the matter of privileges with the Tin and Sugar Councils with which it shares its premises. I hope the House will agree that there is no valid ground for distinguishing between these three bodies, all of which have in their respective spheres done such valuable work in stabilising world prices, and to which we in turn are asked to afford only very modest privileges. It is in our own interests to approve the Order, without which we cannot become parties to the Agreement. I therefore hope that the House will agree with the Motion.
    10.6 p.m.
    Sir Frank Soskice: I do not suppose the House will desire to spend a very long time on this Order. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] I am glad to hear the assent of some hon. Members. I certainly do not propose to spend very long on it.

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    At the same time, I think the House would agree that as we are discussing yet another Order which confers diplomatic immunity it is right not to pass it without, at any rate, some cursory examination. The arrangements described by the Minister seem to me to be at least as complicated as, if not a good deal more complicated than, the agricultural policy which we have just been discussing.
    As I understand it, the Order exempts the corporate body which is brought into being from liability to pay British taxes and British rates, and the officers of the body are to enjoy similar immunity under Section 25 of the Finance Act, 1954. That is no doubt an arrangement which satisfies the Minister, and I suppose it has its logic if one can decipher it.
    I should, however, like to ask why it is that this Order differs in other respects from the next Order that we are to discuss in that it confers no other immunities on the officers of the Council. Do they not have immunity in respect of words which they utter in the course of their duties? Do they not have the other usual privileges which go to the officers of bodies of this sort? Apparently not. I cannot say that I regret it. I think the House rather wonders when the list of those who are enabled to snap their fingers at some provisions of our own domestic law is to be closed.
    I realise, however, that in the nature of things a number of people must enjoy some privileges, and I think the House does not grudge them at any rate a reasonable amount of privileges above those enjoyed by ordinary British citizens. But I think we should just mark our attention to this Order because, as I say, it is one more in the list and is, as I understand it, to be followed by a yet further Order conferring immunities. It differs from that Order. The Minister has given some indication why it does so, but why the officers do not get in this Order the privileges that I am glad they do not, but they do in the next Order, I should like to know.
    10.8 p.m.
    Mr. P. Thomas: The simple answer is that they are two different organisations. The next Order relates to the Central Treaty Organisation, which is in many ways an organisation of diplomatic quality, whereas the organisation with which we are dealing is more of an administrative nature. That is probably the reason why in the Agreement which was negotiated no further privileges were sought. The privileges and immunities which are contained in the Order are just as much as and no more than the privileges and immunities which are in the Agreement which we have signed.
    Question put and agreed to.
    Resolved,
    That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that the International Wheat Council (Immunities and Privileges) Order 1962 be made in the form of the draft laid before this House on 30th May.
    To be presented by Privy Councillors or Members of Her Majesty's Household.

    CENTRAL TREATY ORGANISATION (IMMUNITIES AND PRIVILEGES)
    10.9 p.m.
    The Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Peter Thomas): I beg to move,
    That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that the Central Treaty Organisation (Immunities and Privileges) Order 1962 be made in the form of the draft laid before this House on 30th May.
    This Order is required to enable Her Majesty's Government to ratify the Central Treaty Organisation Status Agreement, which was signed in Ankara on 9th November, 1960. The immunities and privileges that it confers on the organisation and on persons connected with it correspond with those already enjoyed by Western European Union and the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation. C.E.N.T.O. has its headquarters in Ankara, and it is highly improbable that it will ever establish an agency in this country. The Order has practical application only when the Organisation convenes a conference in the United Kingdom.
    Apart from the Secretary-General and the Senior Deputy Secretary-General,

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    both of whom possess normal diplomatic immunity under this Order, Central Treaty Organisation officials would be liable to legal proceedings in respect of all acts performed by them in their private capacities. They would be personally answerable, in just the same way as would any hon. Member of this House, for all misdeeds, such as speeding, parking offences, or more serious crimes, committed outside the sphere of their official duties.
    Article 19 of the Status Agreement provides that the Secretary-General and the Government of each contracting State shall together determine how many officials in the particular State concerned shall he entitled to diplomatic privileges and immunities. Following on this, and in accordance with their usual restrictive policy, Her Majesty's Government have stipulated that this number shall not exceed two, and a provision limiting this treatment to the Secretary-General and his senior Deputy Secretary-General in office at the time has been embodied in notes exchanged between Her Majesty's Ambassador in Ankara and the Secretary-General.
    National representatives to the Council of the Organisation or to any of its subsidiary bodies would enjoy immunity in respect of their official acts and immunity from detention and arrest while they are in the United Kingdom for the discharge of their duties. In the present instance, this merely means that if another Central Treaty Organisation conference is held here in the future, the representatives of foreign Powers attending it and the qualifying members of their staff will he treated in much the same way as they were during the recent conference by virtue of a provision in the 1950 Act which accords them immunity while they are in this country for the purpose of attending an official meeting.
    The position regarding experts employed on missions is wholly favourable to us. No other States normally send such experts here, but United Kingdom citizens go as experts to some of the other Central Treaty Organisation States and would under the Agreement enjoy appropriate immunities.
    We now wish to ratify the Central Treaty Organisation Status Agreement and the Order now before the House
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    does no more than confirm our readiness to carry out the commitments which we undertook on signing the Agreement. There are few occasions on which these privileges and immunities are likely to be invoked, and I commend the Order to the House for its approval.
    10.13 p.m.
    Sir Frank Soskice: Again, I do not want to take much time in examination of this Order, but I think that the House would feel that a proper discharge of one's duty to the House required that we should consider it for a moment before accepting it. I understand that it follows the usual form, and I and most hon. Members would accept that we cannot do without this type of Order in the modern complicated arrangements of these national agreements.
    I did not agree with the Minister when he seemed to imply that it does not matter whether these privileges exist because they axe not likely to be used. I think that most people are concerned with the fact that they exist, and it is only some measure of consolation that they are not in fact generally prayed in aid. The Minister said how many people would be affected by the first section of the Order. I do not know whether he can give any estimate of the number of persons who would enjoy these privileges under Parts II, III and IV. Experts of missions he said would work out in our favour because most of our experts go abroad and not many of those abroad come here. If he can give some general idea as to the number of persons likely to be put in a privileged position by the other parts of the Order, the House would like that information. I certainly do not seek to oppose the Order which, together with the others, seems unavoidable in the present context of international relations.
    10.16 p.m.
    Mr. Marcus Lipton(Brixton): So many people are entitled to immunities and privileges of various kinds that I do not think that the House will register any great objection to two more people being entitled to the same privileges— the Secretary-General of the organisation and the senior Deputy-Secretary-General in office. In those circumstances.

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    I do not think that we are adding considerably to the number of immune persons who are already covered by these privileges and, subject to the reply by the Under-Secretary of State to my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Newport (Sir F. Soskice), I am not disposed to register any violent opposition to the Motion.
    10.17 p.m.
    Mr. P. Thomas: Perhaps I may reply, with the permission of the House, to the right hon. and learned Member for Newport (Sir F. Soskice). It is true that this Order follows the usual form and is the same type of order as we have in respect of N.A.T.O. and W.E.U. I did not intend to convey that it did not matter that these privileges exist because they probably would not be much used, and I am sorry if I conveyed that impression. It is extremely important that the House should scrutinise very carefully privileges such as this which are accorded to international bodies which come to this country. I thought that the House would like to know that in fact these privileges are unlikely to be greatly used.
    The right hon. and learned Gentleman asked me how many people are likely to be affected. As the hon. Member for
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    Brixton (Mr. Lipton) said, two people have full diplomatic privileges and immunity, and two alone. As to the remainder, there are 142 officials currently employed in Ankara. One would not expect there to be a full conference of C.E.N.T.O. in Britain for probably another four years, but if there were a full conference possibly one-third of those officials would come over here for it. They would not have full diplomatic privileges and immunity but a more restricted form, namely that when acting in the discharge of their duties in the course of their employment they would be immune from civil or criminal proceedings being brought against them. Apart from that, they would be entirely under the British law.
    I think that those are the questions which were put to me, and I hope that my replies satisfy the right hon. and learned Gentleman.
    Question put and agreed to.
    Resolved,
    That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that the Central Treaty Organisation (Immunities and Privileges) Order 1962 be made in the form of the draft laid before this House on 30th May.
    To be presented by Privy Councillors or Members of Her Majesty's Household.

    MEAT (IMPORTS)
    Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.— [Mr. J. E. B. Hill.]
    10.19 p.m.
    Mr. Percy Browne: This adjournment debate is a direct result of a Question which I asked the Minister of Agriculture on 9th May. I asked him whether he would take steps to prevent the import of meat from our non-traditional suppliers at a time of peak home killing. The answer was a categorical "No," with a certain amount of verbiage in between.
    I think that the time has come when the Government should consider taking action rather than expressing pious hopes and writing letters to foreign Governments asking them not to export more meat to this country. We had a large Supplementary Estimate of £78 million last year, and the trends for this year, about which I will speak, are again not particularly encouraging. It is always the case that when more meat is brought into the country than we can consume without a great reduction in price two people carry the can—first, the taxpayer and, secondly, the producer. Surely we do not want the same thing to happen this year as happened last year.
    I want, first, to consider the three main supplies which come into this country—beef, sheep and pig meat. Home killing of beef has risen by 15,000 tons in the first three months of this year. The figure must have risen considerably more in the first few weeks of April by the look of the subsidy bill, but I have not the figures. Imports were up marginally—in the first four months to the end of April by 382 tons; but if hon. Members look at the breakdown of imports they will see an interesting picture. Yugoslavia has increased her imports to this country by over 8,250 tons. The Commonwealth have increased their imports by over 3,000 tons, while in the case of the Argentine the figure has dropped by 6,000 tons.
    What are the trends for the future? The result of the imports so far this year has been that at one time the
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    subsidy was running at 7s. per live cwt. more than last year.
    Less beef is now coming on the market and the price has hardened and the subsidy has dropped, but there is no doubt that with the late spring and the shortage of grass many animals have been held off the market and will be coming on to the market in increasing numbers later in the year. Thanks to the policy enunciated in the Price Review this year—encouraging younger beef and the trend to producing baby beef—there will be an increased turnover of animals coming to the market which will be greater than is shown by the census figures. So much for the home market. I now come to imports.
    The increase in imports from Yugo-salvia is such that in the first four months of this year we have already imported nearly half as much as in the whole of 1961. In the slightly longer term, Mr. Juni, of the Argentine, has said that he hopes to increase the export of beef from the Argentine to this country to the 1958 level, and that was 300,000 tons compared with only 220,000 tons last year. With the increase in stores coming from Southern Ireland to the tune of 20,000 tons already this year, one gets a clear picture of the way in which the taxpayers' money is to be used to subsidise home-produced beef later this year.
    Home killing of sheep was down in the first three months of this year by 4,000 tons and imports rose in compensation by only 3,400 tons. Again the weather has affected home killing. Thanks to the 10 per cent. increase in the breeding flock, although we have not had a bumper lamb crop this year, there will be the usual influx of home-produced mutton and lamb on to the market in the autumn. There is no reason to suppose that less mutton and lamb will come on to the market from abroad than there was last year.
    Taking these two commodities which are affected by the weather, in his reply to me the Minister said that the normal trend was that meat imports dropped during the second half of the year. That may be so, but it is a very small trend. The Navigational and Trade Returns for last year and the year before show that, taking April as the yardstick, the increase up to the end of June was 46,000 tons, taking one year with another, with

    619
    a drop of only just over 2,000 tons to the end of September, so that the drop is marginal.
    We get a clear picture of the bacon and pig situation. My hon. Friend the Member for Newbury (Sir A. Hurd) asked a Question on this subject on Monday and was told that the increase in total market supplies of bacon and ham was 5·8 per cent. in the first four months of this year compared with 1961 while pork supplies increased by 11·6 per cent. The home price of bacon is now down to 212s. a hundredweight and the subsidy in week 11 of this year was running at 16s. 4d. per score as compared with 5s. 5d. at the same time last year. This is pre-peak, and the subsidy for bacon pigs is higher still.
    Again, according to the answer given to my hon. Friend, bacon imports increased by 7·1 per cent. in the first four months of this year compared with 1961. We know that the numbers of the Danish herd have increased and that it is estimated that there will be greater pressure from foreign countries for us to import more bacon and pork, particularly bacon, later this year. It is highly likely that there will be a reduction in the guaranteed price in August because we will go over the limit of 11¼ million at the end of June. Here again, there is a trend for an increase in home killing. Five economists writing for P.I.D.A. have said that home killing will be up by 12 per cent. in the first four months of this year with increased pressure from abroad, although the Danes are looking for other markets.
    Taking the three commodities as a whole, although one hopes that it will not happen, it looks as though we shall have the same sort of pattern with beef in the autumn of this year that we had in the spring of last and that we are likely to have the same pressure on the market for mutton and lamb which we had in 1959 and again last year and that the pig subsidy will run at a very high level throughout the year. I make no apology for repeating one or two suggestions which I made in the debate on the Supplementary Estimate in February and to which I got no answer, but which I hope will be answered tonight.
    I hope that in answering this debate the Minister will not hide behind pious
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    hopes about our general trading policy and the fact that we may shortly enter the Common Market. We have to consider the problem as it is, irrespective of these factors. It is the marginal supply coming into the country which matters more than anything else to ourselves as taxpayers and producers and to our traditional suppliers.
    The first step we should take is to set up a committee consisting of members of the Ministry of Agriculture, the Board of Trade and the N.F.U. Its job would be to co-ordinate home production and imports of meat, not an easy task. It should have up-to-date antidumping legislation to enable it to shut the stable door before the horse has gone. We so rarely seem able with present legislation, which is slow and cumbersome, to be able to do that, and speed is essential. There are three things which this committee would have to do. It would have to have up-to-date information from the census, from the market and so on as to the trends of home production. It would know that the pattern was set already as to the home peak killing periods, spring and autumn, which we have as a result of our climate, and it would then be in a position to warn our traditional suppliers in reasonable time that at certain times they must hold off from our market, and that if they do not do so the meat must come in frozen and certainly neither fresh nor chilled. In referring to beef this evening I have been speaking of beef frozen, chilled or fresh, but not processed.
    Secondly, so far as non-traditional suppliers axe concerned, at times we could invoke the anti-dumping legislation, which I hope will be brought up to date in any case, and at times we could introduce quotas or stop imports altogether. When this is suggested we are usually told, "What about G.A.T.T.? We are in a vulnerable position". We are in a particularly vulnerable position, the taxpayers especially, and when we give the Government expenditure we are told to cut down. As an example we imported 5 million tons of beef from Yugoslavia and exported about the same value of goods in return last year. In the quota imports that is marginal, but it is the marginal amounts of meat or dairy products which

    621
    upsets the market, and that is what we have to stop.
    I believe that the trend in the next nine months may be that we shall find ourselves in the same sort of position as last year. All that the Government have done since then has been to write to the countries from which we import meat and ask them to hold off the market. I do not think that is sufficient. I want to see the taxpayer safeguarded and the interests of the producer safeguarded so that he will not once again be told when the Supplementary Estimate appears, "The farmers have never had it so good".
    10.32 p.m.
    Mr. Frederick Peart: I congratulate the hon. Member for Torrington (Mr. P. Browne) on raising this very important subject. It is one which affects the producer and, as he rightly said, it could well affect the taxpayer. I should like to know what is Government policy on this matter. I have some figures which have been taken from the Trade and Navigation Returns showing bacon imports from Denmark. The value of our imports of bacon are worth £2½ million more for the first 4 months of this year than in the same period last year, and total imports in April, 1961, amounted to 561,682 cwt. compared with 687, 606 cwt. in April, 1962. Imports of pork from the Irish Republic rose by £ ½ million for the first 4 months of this year. This pattern is repeated in other commodities, and, as the hon. Member has said, it might well create a situation such as that of last year. We know the results. In the end, we had a growth of subsidy and an outcry from the taxpayer, and confidence in the industry was affected. I should like to know what the Government are doing about this. I am not suggesting the solution is what was suggested by the hon. Member is the right one. He spoke first of a committee and then of a board. I detected some split thinking.
    Mr. P. Browne: I meant to stick to the word "committee" and did not realise that I had used the word "board".
    Mr. Peart: He was talking in terms of a board, and it may be that the logic of his thinking is that inevitably one
    622
    day there will have to be a public authority to control imports or to make a decision. I agree that the Government must make up their mind on the antidumping legislation. Representations have been made by various farming organisations. Has the Minister had full consultation with the Board of Trade, or is there difficulty there? Is the Board of Trade representing a point of view which is anti-agriculture? I know that that can happen and that often there is a tug-of-war on these vital issues of import and export policy. I should like to know if the Minister has made the necessary representations.
    10.35 p.m.
    Mr. Denys Bullard: My hon. Friend the Member for Torrington (Mr. P. Browne) has put his finger on most of the important points which affect not only the livestock side of the guarantees but also the crop side as well. I understand that my hon. Friend the Joint Parliamentary Secretary is anxious to reply. Therefore, I will not proceed with the very short speech which otherwise I would have made but will be interested to hear what he has to say.
    The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Mr. W. M. F. Vane): It is not inappropriate that my hon. Friend the Member for Torrington (Mr. P. Browne) should have raised this matter tonight as an epilogue, as it were, to the agricultural tenor of the larger debate which has preceded it. In a sense, the earlier debate shows some of the difficulties of the problem which we are considering here, and the speeches which we have just heard make one sympathise with the agricultural Ministers of the Six who are trying to deal with problems many times more complicated than the one about which my hon. Friends have shown anxiety on behalf of this country alone.
    I can say to my hen. Friend that to a large extent we are on common ground. We are both anxious to ensure a reasonable return for the farmer and fair prices for the consumer, and we do not want to see an unreasonable burden being placed on the taxpayer and on the Exchequer. The Fatstock Guarantee Scheme protects the farmer's interests, and the point now at issue is whether we would be justified in taking action

    623
    against imports largely in order to reduce the cost to the Exchequer of maintaining the guarantees.
    I do not want to avoid the questions asked in any way. This may seem a simple thing if one puts all the weight of one's case against marginal imports, but, apart from the present difficulties, it implies major changes in our general commercial policy. I assure the House that no one is more concerned than my right hon. Friend to find means of limiting the cost to the Exchequer of maintaining the guarantees while preserving proper opportunities for the British farmer, but I do not think that action on the lines suggested by my hon. Friend would be practicable, and I hope to show him why.
    Mr. Peart: What do the Government intend to do, then?
    Mr. Vane: If the hon. Member will allow me to take advantage of the remaining minutes, I will do my best to tell him.
    There are many difficulties, and it is no good anyone pretending that there are not, in the suggestion that we should restrain imports during the period of peak home production. It sounds simple enough, but it would raise not only practical issues but major issues of commercial policy. I should like to deal first with the practical issues. Let us take mutton and lamb. For some time we have imported about 60 per cent. of this commodity, and almost entirely from the Commonwealth. All these imports are frozen, which means that the meat can either be sold immediately or stored for months until the best moment to sell. Quite clearly—although proper weight is not always given to this in debate—it is in the interests of the importers to take advantage of this flexibility to sell when they can get the best return, and this is when there is less home-produced meat on the market.
    The figures show that significantly more imported supplies are sold during the first half of the year than in the second half, which is normally the period of greatest home production. I should have thought, therefore, that it would be difficult to justify Government intervention just on that score.
    As for beef, we import about 25 per cent. of our total supplies. Just over
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    one-half of these imports come from the Argentine, mainly in chilled form. About a quarter of our beef imports come from the Commonwealth and is mainly frozen. Less than 3 per cent. of our total supplies come from nontraditional supplies, mainly from Yugoslavia, and we have heard from the Government of that country that it is not their intention to increase supplies this year. This is on the lines my hon. Friend the Member for Torrington suggested.
    Mr. P. Browne: Does that mean that they will not increase them above the supplies which they sent last year?
    Mr. Vane: The figures which have been mentioned are something comparable with those for last year.
    Chilled beef presents a more difficult problem since this has to be disposed of very soon after arrival and the timing of arrivals must to some extent be dictated by such factors as shipping schedules and seasonal conditions in exporting countries. Nevertheless the commercial incentive of avoiding periods of market weakness is obvious. It is wrong to suppose that those concerned do anything other than try to take advantage of this.
    The figures also indicated that more imports of beef and mutton do tend to be sold during the earlier part of the year. The seasonal nature of home beef production—and this is the commodity with Which my hon. Friend was particularly concerned—is not nearly so marked as in the case of lamb and mutton, and with advances in production techniques is likely to be even less marked.
    What is important is that it is not always possible to anticipate with accuracy—and the hon. Member has given us an illustration of this already —when the peak of home production will occur. Excessive rain or the lack of it and other differences in one area compared with another can play havoc with marketings, and I should not like to suggest that Ministers, would be able to anticipate these sorts of changes in the market with that sort of precision which would be necessary if we were to have short-term restrictions on imports reaching our market. Of course, the

    625
    difficulty with chilled beef is that it cannot really be stored, so the question which concerns us is not just the meat reaching this country but also the frozen meat which comes out of cold store.
    When we speak of restricting the small amounts which come from our nontraditional suppliers we must remember that the larger amount of our imported meat, particularly that from Australia and New Zealand, can be imported without quantitative restriction under our treaty obligations, for a number of years. Therefore, I would not think that we ought to attach too much importance to what might be achieved if we concerned ourselves simply with certain smaller quantities from non-traditional suppliers and found ourselves allowing the main flow to follow its traditional pattern. Incidentally, it is worth noting that beef imports have declined since 1957. Last year they were 20 per cent. below what they were in 1960 and 40 per cent. below what they were in 1957.
    My hon. Friend raised the question of supplies from the Argentine and suggested it was the Argentines' intention this year to restore the figures of imports to this country to what they were in 1960. I think this is a misunderstanding. Of course, an exporting country naturally likes to keep its markets, but the expression used by one of the Argentine's delegates was intended, I think, as much more a general expression for the long-term—
    Mr. P. Browne: I said in the long-term.
    Mr. Vane: I am sorry if I misunderstood my hon. Friend. I did not want to misquote him. This was not I understood intended to be a great effort by the Argentine to get back to their original figures in the short-term.
    As to anti-dumping legislation, which the hon. Member for Workington mentioned, and our general commercial policy. Apart from the difficulties I have mentioned, which are real, practical difficulties, there is the question of our general commercial policy. It is to the advantage of all of us that we remain a great trading nation, and further, we must not forget our treaty obligations, as I have said, particularly those with our main Commonwealth suppliers, Australia and New Zealand.
    626
    I appreciate that my hon. Friend is mainly concerned with non-Commonwealth supplies. None the less, we cannot suppose that the problem is helped just by concentrating our efforts to them. It would he ineffective in practice to ban imports and sales of foreign meat while meat from the Commonwealth was sold in unlimited quantities.
    As to anti-dumping legislation, that is directed to seeing that meat is sold in this country under conditions which satisfy us. Here may I say, when the hon. Gentleman criticises the antidumping legislation, that there was none at all a short time ago. Only in 1957 did this Government introduce antidumping legislation, and although it is not perfect, I do not think it deserves the criticism which is sometimes voiced against it in this House. It is possible to take rapid action when conditions in the Act are satisfied. I am not sure what my hon. friend the Member for Torrington means exactly by bringing it up to date. There is a number of cases which illustrate how successfully it can be operated—not least a year ago when we were dealing with the problem of dumped barley.
    My hon. Friend will remember, too, that my right hon. Friend said in the House that the Governments of our major suppliers, both in the Commonwealth and outside, had been made aware of the circumstances of the United Kingdom meat market, and in fact he wrote them letters, which I think should be given greater weight than my hon. Friend suggested. I am sure that the correspondence which my right hon. Friend has had with the Governments of the meat exporting countries has done good. They all recognise that it is in their own interests as much as ours to maintain stability in this market of ours which is probably the most important market in the world for meat. They appreciate as much as we do that oversupplying the market either by not planning the arrival of their supplies, or for one reason or another, works as much to their disadvantage as to the disadvantage of anyone else.
    My hon. Friend mentioned the need for a committee to consider the whole question of meat supplies. I cannot agree that a committee such as he suggested would achieve the object that he

    627
    has in mind. The Government keep a close watch on the pattern of imports, and they must always remain ultimately responsible for our import policy. We do what we can to reduce potential difficulties in the fatstock and carcase meat market, and our fatstock guarantees system provides for a seasonal scale of guarantees to encourage a more even flow of marketings, it is not as easy as some would have it to ensure that this flow is always even. There are the processes of nature to contend with, particularly in relation to pigs, where the fluctuations are notorious. Also although one does not want to call in aid the weather, my hon. Friend did mention it in this debate. Therefore, to suggest that one can control the meat market in the way in which one controls other markets is over simplifying a very difficult problem.
    An inquiry is being undertaken by a committee recently appointed by my right hon. Friend. It is under the Chairmanship of Sir Reginald Verdon Smith. Therefore, apart from the merits of the suggestion made by my hon. Friend, which I do not think would achieve what he wants it to achieve, I do not think that it would be timely to appoint
    628
    another committee, even though the main function of the committee which my hon. Friend has in mind would be to inquire into imports from overseas.
    I believe it is thought in some quarters that the imported product is gaining an ever-increasing share of the British market. In fact the figures show the opposite.
    Mr. P. Browne: A good thing too.
    Mr. Vane: I agree with my hon. Friend. I am not depressed by the figures, as some people seem to be when we discuss them. Since I first became interested in agriculture, the home producers' share of the United Kingdom market has increased tremendously. Since 1957, apart from a small drop in the amount of pig meat, which is the most liable to fluctuations, it has increased by 12 per cent. for beef and veal, and 6 per cent. for mutton and lamb.
    The Question having been proposed after Ten o'clock and the debate having continued for half an hour, Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
    Adjourned at eleven minutes to Eleven o'clock.

SCOTLAND
  Fishing Boats (Grants and Loans)
  Fishing Boats (Grants and Loans)
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  New Road, Kinlochmoidart Inverailort
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  Bankruptcy Law and Deeds of Arrangement (Report)

Preamble
The House met at two of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Norwich
The Viscount Falmouth—Sat first in Parliament after the death of his father.

DEARTH OF NORTH SEA HERRING
2.5 p.m.
LORD BOOTHBY: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether any conclusions have been reached by the Herring Committee of the International Council for the Exploration of the Sea as to the causes of the dearth of herring in the North Sea in recent years.
THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD (EARL WALDEGRAVE): No, my Lords. This is a complex subject, and the investigations of this Committee are not finished. The Committee set up a Working Group in October, 1960, with instructions
"to make a detailed appraisal of all existing data on stock separation and identity for the North Sea herring populations and on the effect of fishing on these herring stocks".
The work of the Group is therefore directed to the question which the noble Lord has raised, and we are all conscious that it is important to get an answer to it as soon as we can. But it is undeniably a difficult problem and I understand that the report of the Group may not be ready until next year.
LORD BOOTHBY: My Lords, in the meantime, will the noble Earl give an assurance that Her Majesty's Government will direct the attention of this Committee to the importance of the examination of the trawling of immature stocks of herring for what is called
596
"industrial fishing"—namely, for conversion into oil and meal?
EARL WALDEGRAVE: Yes, my Lords. I think this is one of the matters that they are undoubtedly looking into; and, of course, we have British scientists working on this Committee.

MONMOUTHSHIRE TERRITORIALS AND NEWPORT BARRACKS
2.7 p.m.
LORD RAGLAN: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether a decision has been made regarding the allocation of the Artillery Barracks, Newport, to the Monmouthshire Territorial and Auxiliary Association.]
LORD ST. OSWALD: My Lords, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for War is planning to concentrate Monmouthshire Territorial Army units into these barracks.
LORD RAGLAN: My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that his right honourable friend has been planning to do this for several years?
LORD ST. OSWALD: My Lords, I do not know what my noble friend means by "several years". He will appreciate that only as from 1960, with the reorganisation of the Territorial Army, have the needs of this group of units really been studied in the light of today's circumstances.
LORD RAGLAN: My Lords, may we hope for an early decision on this matter, because it is a matter of some urgency?
LORD ST. OSWALD: My Lords, it has in fact been agreed that the Territorial Army shall have the use of these barracks. When they actually move in depends on the work of adaptation, which it is expected may take from two to three years.
LORD RAGLAN: My Lords, I understand that these plans were approved by the War Office last year.

REVISED FINES FOR CRIMINAL OFFENCES
2.9 p.m.
LORD SWAYTHLING: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are satisfied that the current maximum fines prescribed in the Statutes creating criminal offences are in all cases adequate, having regard to the fall in the value of money since they were enacted: and, if not, what steps are proposed to be taken to bring them into line with modern requirements.]
THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (EARL BATHURST): My Lords, Her Majesty's Government agree that there is a case for the revision of some fines in the light of present-day monetary values. A comprehensive review, covering several hundreds of small statutory fines, has been in progress for some time, and is being carried forward as rapidly as its nature and other commitments permit. It involves the examination of a large number of Statutes and a consideration of penalties for a wide variety of offences. In the pre-1914 Statutes alone there are nearly 600 fines scattered through 150 Statutes. Her Majesty's Government hope that when this review, on which substantial progress has been made, has been completed, an opportunity can be found for legislation.
LORD SWAYTHLING: My Lords, while I thank the noble Earl for his reply, may I remind him that when I asked your Lordships to give a Second Reading to the Fines Bill in March, 1960, he, replying on behalf of Her Majesty's Government, said what he has said to-day: that they were reviewing all these fines according to modern circumstances, and he then said he thought it was a considerable task? He went on to ask us to show a little patience. He stated that he thought the review would take into account the difficulties and anomalies which the Fines Bill was designed to deal with. Therefore, after this lapse of time, can he give us more definite information about when he
598
expects something concrete to be done, more especially for those offences which come most often before petty sessional courts?
EARL BATHURST: My Lords, I regret that I must ask if the noble Lord would show a little more patience. I assure him that there is no short cut and I am certain that the noble Lord, and other noble Lords who are experts in this matter, will appreciate that fact. I ask the noble Lord to show a little more patience—I certainly appreciate all he has said in the Question he has asked.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
EARL ST. ALDWYN: My Lords, I should like to inform your Lordships that my noble friend Lord Waldegrave will be making a statement on cotton textiles at a suitable moment after 3.30 p.m. I should like to take this opportunity of informing your Lord ships that after we return from the Whitsun Recess dinners will be available in the Dining Room on every Sitting night. I hope your Lordships will take advantage of this, and if it is a success we might possibly continue it after the Summer Recess.

KENT RIVER BOARD (HARBOUR OF RYE) BILL [H.L.]
2.12 p.m.
Read 3a.
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (LORD MERTHYR): My Lords, I beg to move that the Bill do now pass.
Moved, That the Bill do now pass.—(Lord Merthyr.)
LORD KILLEARN: My Lords, I must declare my direct interest in this Bill because I am the President of the Port of Rye Protection Society, which went to the great expense and trouble of petitioning against it. It was naturally a keen disappointment to the Petitioners that the Preamble to the Bill was found by the Select Committee to be proved, but their disappointment was to some extent relieved by the decision of the Select Committee to accept certain Amendments which will help to safeguard navigational interests in the future. I confess that I find it astonishing that

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these elementary safeguards should have had to be fought for and won at private expense. But, even now, the future of the port and harbour of Rye is left dangerously at the mercy of a drainage authority whose regard for amenities in-including navigation has been manifestly shown to be lacking. I should have thought that such a Bill should have been shelved at least until the passing of the legislation promised by Her Majesty's Government to deal with the whole question of water conservation and to set up new river authorities to serve the interests of all river users. That is the Bill on which we had a debate a few days ago in which I very briefly intervened.
My object now (and I have been told I must be brief) is neither to divide the House nor to criticise the Select Committee, but to draw attention to one outstanding fact which emerged from the evidence given by the Promoters of the Bill. The sum of £400,000 is to be spent for the direct benefit of only 6,000 acres of agricultural land which even now is valued at £100 an acre; that is an average rate of expenditure of £60 per acre, which seems quite a lot. Disregarding all its other defects, these figures alone suggest that it would be very unwise for the Government to allow this Bill to reach the Statute Book without further investigation from this financial aspect if from no other.
Before I sit down, may I remind your Lordships of what I said previously when I raised this question on, I think, March 1, when the Bill was referred to the Select Committee? I ventured to submit to your Lordships we are in fact a very odd people. We have recently had the example of a superb advocate, Lord Birkett, convincing the House that the loss of Ullswater was not in the public interest—and he carried the House with him, God bless him! It was the last speech he ever made and it was a magnificent effort. The House of Lords is here, thank Heavens! and it acted. I must not compare small things with great, but as a matter of fact the "great township of Rye" is in itself rather unique. It is a remains of mediaeval England, if you like. It is the last of the Cinque Ports. It is not actually a Cinque Port; it was a limb, which
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is a curious subdivision, but it is the only Cinque Port harbour left. And these people, with all respect, come along with what is a drainage Bill at this enormous expense for 6,000 acres already drained.
I have been to see them. The 6,000 acres in question have already been drained—I refer to Shirley Moor; I have been to look at it. Why spend another £400,000 on that? Whatever we may say or do, they are going to sink a great obstruction in the middle of the river fairway. That cannot improve the prospects or attractions of the harbour. We are indeed a most extraordinary people. We have one or two things one might call national heirlooms left, and what do we do? Throw them aside with a flick of the finger; who cares? The public is not alerted. The Rye people are alerted; they are furious; but what can a poor humble member on these Cross Benches do to stop it? It wants public influence and the day will come—the day is not far off—when the public, when we all, will regret these things, these national losses. Now is the time; yet we go on fiddling, just letting things drift. My Lords, I have had my say.
On Question, Bill passed, and sent to the Commons.

LETCHWORTH GARDEN CITY CORPORATION BILL
2.20 p.m.
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES: My Lords, as those of your Lord ships Who are concerned with Private Bills know, it is my practice to hold an unofficial meeting each Session in January to assist me in deciding to which Private Bills I should direct the attention of the House, under Standing Order 91, as containing provisions of special interest, and to any special circumstances relative to the Bill. It was agreed at the meeting this year that I should make such a statement with regard to this Bill.
The following are the circumstances. In 1903 a company known as First Garden City, Limited, was formed to develop and manage Letchworth for the benefit of the town and its inhabitants. The company was originally non-profit-making and, as set out in its Memorandum of Association, it was intended to promote and further the distribution of

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industrial population upon the lines suggested in Sir Ebenezer Howard's book Garden Cities of Tomorrow. In December, 1960, control of the company passed to a company known as Hotel York, Limited, and although in the offer to shareholders it was stated that the company would ensure the future of Letch-worth as a unified estate in accordance with the principles upon which the town had been developed since its foundation, the Promoters, the Letchworth Urban District Council, claim that such an acquisition will be prejudicial to the fulfilment of the earlier intentions of the company and to the interests of the town and of its inhabitants.
The Bill is promoted for the purpose of establishing a corporation which, in return for appropriate compensation, would acquire the undertaking of First Garden City, Limited, and in its opinion safeguard the position in the future. The Bill was opposed in the House of Commons and was given a Second Reading there by 241 votes to 13; and, there being two Petitions against it, it was committed to a Select Committee of nine members. The Committee sat for six days, and the Bill was reported with Amendments. The Bill reached this House on May 31 when it received its First Reading and was referred to the Examiners. I anticipate that it will be petitioned against in this House also, in which case it will be referred to a Select Committee. As at present arranged, I intend to put the Bill down for Second Reading on Thursday, June 28.

POPULATION PRESSURE IN ASIA
2.24 p.m.
LORD CASEY rose LORD CASEY rose to ask Her Majesty's Government whether they have considered the consequences of the present rate of population growth in Asia, and in the Commonwealth countries in Asia in particular and, if so, what they propose to do to stimulate scientific research in the United Kingdom towards a socially acceptable solution of the problem applicable to Asian conditions; and to move for Papers. The noble Lord said: My Lords, my reason for bringing the subject matter of my Motion to your Lordships' notice is because I believe that it is of first class importance; otherwise I should not have ventured to take up your Lordships'
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time by discussing it. I have on previous occasions, in debates on wider topics in your Lordships' House, raised the broad subject of population pressure in Asia, but I must admit to not having received any great encouragement. That could well be due to the fact that I did not put the matter as succinctly or as convincingly to your Lordships as it should have been put.
The simple facts of the situation are these. More than half the total population of the world—that is, 1,600 million people out of about 3,000 million—live in Asia. Nothing that I shall venture to say to your Lordships to-day will have reference to the situation in Japan, which is a wholly different case, because they have kept entirely on top of their problem of population pressure; but in respect of the rest of Asia, the factors in the situation in most Asian countries are high population density, a high and rising rate of increase of population, and a low standard of living. It is the combination of high population density with a high and rising rate of population increase in many of the countries in South and South East Asia that creates the problem which I am venturing to lay before your Lordships to-day. A high rate of population growth also exists in Africa and in most of the countries of Latin America. However, these countries cannot be regarded as over-populated; therefore the problem has not the urgency and importance that it has in Asia.
Another factor that underlines the importance of this subject so far as we in the Commonwealth are concerned, is that well over 80 per cent. of the total population of the Commonwealth live in Asia—about 550 millions out of a total of about 650 millions—and it so happens that the combination of overpopulation and excessive population growth is most intense in the Asian Commonwealth countries. Also there is the melancholy fact that, according to the United Nations published statistics, the average national income per head in the Asian Commonwealth countries is £23 sterling per year, whereas the average national income in what might be called the older Commonwealth countries is £421 per year.
By way of example in particular, let me speak of the case of India, with

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its immense population of now approaching 450 million people. That is more than the whole of the population of Africa and of Latin America combined. The population growth in Ceylon, Malaya and Singapore is even more intense than that in India, but let me concentrate on India as a large and typical case, though, as I have said, the problem is by no means confined to that country. The figures and statements that I make are applicable almost precisely, in proportion, to Pakistan. The Indian population has grown by 22 per cent. in the ten years between 1951 and 1961. The figure of at least 22 per cent. yearly increase is the accepted present rate of population growth in India. If this rate of population growth is projected into the future it will mean that the population of India will double in about 30 years. I realise well how imprudent it is to project a curve into the future, but this is offset by the fact that the most informed demographers on this subject tend to believe that the rate of increase of population in India, and indeed in Asia, is more likely to increase than it is to decrease.
The problem of population pressure at its present and growing rate of intensity in India and elsewhere in Asia is relatively quite a recent one—in fact, it may be said to be a product only of the last fifteen years. In 1947, when India achieved independence under the Crown, it was 310 million. To-day, fifteen years later, it is close to 450 million—an increase in fifteen years of 140 million people. In the same period of fifteen years prior to the independence of India the increase in population was only 33 million, as against 140 million in the past fifteen years. I submit that these two figures are in effect a numerical justification for what I am about to lay before your Lordships. All the figures that I use I have drawn from relevant official sources.
As those of your Lordships know who follow the series of Indian five-year plans, a vast effort is being undertaken there to raise the pathetically low standard of living of the vast population by development of all the relevant factors in the Indian economy.
It is common knowledge that the Indian Government cannot achieve their
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developmental objectives on the basis of their own domestic financial resources, but they are relying to an appreciable extent on financial and economic aid from the more highly developed countries, particularly the United States of America, the United Kingdom and the other developed countries of the West. However, as the Indian population is growing at a rate of at least 9 million persons per year, any increases in national production tend to be spread progressively over a constantly and largely increasing number of people. The large amount of effort and finance that is being put into the Indian Government's effort to increase production and to improve the Indian standard of living is now being practically cancelled out by reason of constant and formidable population increases. The unemployment problem in India annually gets more and more acute each year in addition to widespread under-employment. As has been said, they have to run fast in order to stand still This means that the very large amount of developmental money spent by the Government of India itself, by ourselves and by the United States is being largely wasted, in that it is not helping to achieve the primary purpose—that of improving the standard of living of the Indian people.
It is widely agreed among demographers, scientists and relevant men in public life that the only possible solution to the problem of growth population in Asia must be some form of family planning, some form of contraceptive that is socially acceptable. As your Lordships know, family planning has been an important part of Government policy in India—and indeed in Pakistan as well—for a great many years. Increasing amounts of money have been devoted to it in successive Indian Five Year Plans. In the third Five-Year Plan, now about a year old, many millions have been allocated to be spent on family planning. There are about 2,000 birth-control clinics in India, and it is planned to increase them by a great many thousands in the course of the present Five-Year Plan, The problem of those in charge of birth control in India is that they have only the methods of family planning of the past to work on, which are by no means adequate, appropriate or effective for Indian conditions.

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They are waiting impatiently for science to evolve something better and more appropriate to their needs. As your Lordships will know, there is no religious or other prejudice against birth control in India. In fact, no fewer than 125,000 operations for sterilisation have been conducted up to the present in India alone.
The steady increase in net population growth in India and other Asian countries over the last fifteen years, has been due very largely to the increasing effectiveness of public health measures and preventive medicine, which can be said to have started to be put into effect only in 1945 and which have resulted in a constantly declining death rate. The birth rate has not significantly increased, but the declining death rate has had the effect of a steady increase in the net rate of population growth, and this situation may be expected to become more pronounced and acute as the years go on.
Scientific research into biological methods of contraception have been going on for a number of years in this country and more particularly in the United States of America. Appreciable success has been achieved in certain directions, in particular, the pill developed by Dr. Pincus, known as Enovid in the United States, and as Conovid in the United Kingdom. In the United Kingdom it is now available on doctor's prescription, for medical purposes under the National Health Service, but it is not in use for what may be called general social purposes. However, the biological contraceptives developed so far are almost certainly not suitable for Asian conditions, by reason of the fact that they have to be taken no fewer than 20 times a month, which is a practice that is most unlikely to be observed by illiterate women in Asian villages. A great deal more research is needed into the whole of the male and femal reproductive machinery, before the ideal and socially acceptable contraceptive is likely to be evolved for use in Asia. Compared with other forms of medical research, the amount of work being done on population control is very small, and in the ordinary course of events the appearance of the final answer is likely to be long-delayed. Such research can be effectively done only in countries with large resources of scien-
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tific personnel and of money, notably the United Kingdom and the United States. The resources of the Asian countries in this regard are relatively small.
That brings me to the point of what I am endeavouring to say to your Lord ships, that a major direction, possibly the major direction, in which the United Kingdom can help India (and the other Asian countries similarly afflicted with excessive growth population) is to encourage the pursuit of scientific research directed towards the discovery of a socially acceptable contraceptive suitable for Asian conditions. I know very well that the United Kingdom by reason of the foreign exchange position and the problem of our balance of payments, is limited in the amount of economic aid that can be given to overseas countries; but scientific research that I speak of, in an effort to evolve a practical and acceptable contraceptive suitable to Asian conditions would have no impact whatsoever on the United Kingdom's foreign exchange position or on her balance of payments. And the same thing can be said of similar accelerated research in the United States.
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord one question? When he refers to "a socially acceptable contraceptive", does he mean a contraceptive that would be socially acceptable in India, or a contraceptive that would be socially acceptable in India and in this country?
LORD CASEY: My Lords, I am speaking solely of India and other Asian countries similarly afflicted with population problems, not of contraception in the United Kingdom.
The end-point of such research, if it were to be successful, might be some form of contraceptive (it is not for me to say what that form would be) that would put into the hands of the Governments of India and of the other Asian countries the means of curbing their high and growing population pressures. They would, of course, have to take the normal prudent steps to assure themselves of its efficacy and suitability, and that it did not produce unwelcome side effects. They would be under no obligation to accept and use it unless they were satisfied as to its value. Once the scientific work is done and a successful

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result achieved, as I have no doubt it will be, the rest is up to the Governments of India and the other countries concerned to take advantage of it, to manufacture it and put it into use. That aspect of things is entirely within the "say-so" of the Government of India.
When I speak of Her Majesty's Government encouraging such scientific research, I am not speaking solely of such research being done in Governmentally sponsored scientific research establishments. There is a great deal of scientific research potential in this country under the aegis of foundations, in the universities, by the pharmaceutical companies and in other directions that are not dependent on Government sponsorship or funds. If Her Majesty's Government were to be convinced of the importance of the matter of which I speak it would not be difficult for encouragement to be given in many ways, publicly or privately, to let it be known that the matter might be given the necessary priority. I believe that something between £100 million and £200 million a year is currently being provided by Her Majesty's Government, in the form of aid of various kinds to overseas countries that are in need of it. Might I suggest that a million or two out of this substantial amount might be devoted by, or in, the United Kingdom, to the encouragement of scientific research in the direction of which I am speaking?
It is reasonable to expect that scientific research in this direction will be successful in due course, but at the present rate at which such research is being conducted, the successful result is likely to be rather long delayed. Meanwhile, population pressure in India, and in Asia more generally, is mounting year by year—by nine million persons at least in India each year, and by a great many more in Asia as a whole. I find it difficult to believe that Her Majesty's Government can be indifferent to the economic, social and political consequences, particularly when the means of seeking to shorten Asia's period of dangerous travail is in their hands.
My Lords, I realise very well that the importance of any statement tends to lie in the individual who makes it. I have said a number of things, in the course of what I have ventured to lay before your Lordships' House to-day.
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but it may be said that I am no expert in these matters, although I do claim to have given an appreciable amount of attention to them over a number of years. However, let me now quote some individuals whose names and standing will be well known to you, and who have expressed themselves with authority and force about the problem of population pressure in India. I have on past occasions quoted to your Lordships. Mr. Nehru, the Prime Minister of India, and President Ayub Khan of Pakistan, in each of whose countries family planning is an important matter of Government policy. Each of them has spoken in the most serious terms of the need for effective family planning in each of their great countries. I will not repeat the quotations I have made of each of these highly placed individuals, in what I have said in your Lordships' House in 1960 and 1961.
I have also quoted Mr. Chagla, the late Indian Ambassador to the United States, now the Indian High Commissioner in London. I have quoted his words in the fervent and moving public appeal that he made in the United States two years ago, addressed to the Government and people of the United States, to press on with scientific research directed towards the evolving of an acceptable contraceptive appropriate to the conditions of India and of Asia. I personally have reason to believe that Mr. Chagla's views are even more strongly held now than when he expressed himself so pungently two years ago.
Now let me quote, if I may, from what Mr. Eugene Black, the distinguished President of the International Bank, said in an address to the Economic and Social Council of the United Nations in April last year. He said this:
"Population growth threatens to nullify all our efforts to raise living standards in many of the poorer countries. We are coming to a situation in which the optimist will be the man who thinks that present living standards can be maintained. The pessimist will not look even for that. Unless population growth can be restrained, we may have to abandon for this generation our hopes of economic progress in the crowded lands of Asia and the Middle East. This is not a field in which international agencies can do much. But there is scope for Governments to act: it is time that they gave earnest attention to this threat to their aspirations."
Senator Fulbright, Chairman of the Foreign Affairs Committee of the United

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States Congress, speaking of population pressure in Asia, has said this:
"The Indians and the Pakistanis have both very frankly said that something has to be done about it. Their Finance Ministers came to see me and said that something had to be done about this. This is fundamental to the success of the economic programme. I do not see why the Government should be so reluctant about it."
The noble Lord, Lord Brain, who has a long and distinguished record of concern with this subject, is I believe, here to-day and I will not attempt to take words out of his mouth, but I have no doubt that he will let your Lordships know his views in his own terms. Professor A. S. Parkes, lately of the National Institute for Medical Research in London, now Professor of Reproductive Physiology at Cambridge, has said, speaking of scientific research directed towards the finding of an effective contraceptive:
"Work must be pushed on at top speed, both ad hoc investigation into possible applications of existing knowledge and fundamental researches to broaden the basis of existing knowledge and therefore of possibilities of practical application. More research workers and more facilities are needed but they will take time to produce."
Sir Henry Dale, who is distinguished in the fields of medicine and public health, has said, speaking on this same subject:
"We ought to begin to ask ourselves what we are going to do about it. … There is much to be gained by removing this subject of birth control from whatever remains of its furtive associations . … I think that the time has come when we should advocate, insistently, if need be, that the whole subject should be, as it were, brought out from under the counter, discussed at the highest levels and raised to the full dignity of a proper and important objective, for all that the best of medical and pharmaceutical research might be able to offer towards its eventual solution."
My Lords, I have picked out these few distinguished individuals to quote almost by chance. There are a great many others—Sir Julian Huxley, Sir Solly Zuckerman and others, whose names are household words in the scientific world. Let me end by quoting Mr. James Reston, the well known representative of the New York Times in Washington, who said not long ago in this same connection:
"Probably never in history has so obvious and significant a fact as the present population explosion been so widely evaded or minimised by the Governments of men."
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If any further authority for the seriousness of this subject is needed, I would refer your Lordships to the United Nations Report on "The Future Growth of World Population". I do not believe that what has been said, by the highly placed and responsible individuals whom I have quoted, can be lightly set aside.
I may say that, in what I have said I am not speaking in any way of contraception in the United Kingdom, which from the strictly national point of view is less urgent, however important it may be to individuals. There is a great deal to be said with truth about contraception in the United Kingdom in this context, but this afternoon I am speaking particularly and only about the situation in Asia and in India. The population of the United Kingdom is growing only at the very small rate of about one half of 1 per cent. per year.
Whilst I have spoken of the need to curb the excessive population growth of India and of other Asian countries, in order to enable the pathetically low standard of living to be raised, this is not on the rather longer view the only consideration, or even perhaps the principal consideration. In India itself, continued Jack of success in the task of improving the standard of living will have unfortunate political repercussions. In the larger context, the ideological competition between democratic India and Communist China is well known. If mainland China can get ahead significantly faster than democratic India over the next ten or twenty years, then the people of India may well come to the conclusion that Communism is a more fruitful form of Government and of social system than is Democracy—with appalling consequences for democracy, for Asia and for the world.
Before venturing to address your Lord-ships this afternoon, I reminded myself of a great debate that took place in your Lordships' House, and in another place, on the Indian Independence Bill in July, 1947. Much was said—and very movingly said—about good will and help to the two great nations, India and Pakistan, that were in the course of emerging as independent countries under the Crown. Among the many contributions to this great debate, the noble Earl,

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the late Lord Halifax, said this OFFICIAL REPORT, Vol. 150, col. 834]:
"… they"—
that is, the people of the then undivided India—
"will know that in the British Government and people they have friends who will be prepared to place … a measure of unstinted help at the service of the new Indias which are now emerging."
I realise very well that the pledges of help that were given in that great debate have been appreciably redeemed by way of economic and financial aid by successive Governments in this country, to the extent that conditions have made possible; and this can also be said of other Commonwealth countries by way of aid to India and Asia.
The interdependence of Commonwealth countries was also stressed in that great debate. I venture to say to your Lordships that if "interdependence" has a meaning—even, I might say, if the word "Commonwealth" has a meaning—it surely means that India and the rest of the Commonwealth countries in Asia should be able to count on the work of a few score, or a few hundred, additional scientific workers, in an effort to cure the most intractable problem of which I have been speaking, with its almost incalculable social, economic and political consequences, and for which the Commonwealth Asian countries do not happen to have the scientific and other wherewithal to do fox themselves. It has been said—and I tend to agree—that, short of preventing another great wax from breaking out, there is no more important matter than to curb the excessive population growth in Asia, with the devastating effects that will follow if it is not coped with.
I have some realisation, I think, of the problems at home and abroad that Her Majesty's Government face and with which they are so valiantly endeavouring to cope. What I have ventured to suggest will not add appreciably—I might even say it will add microscopically—to these burdens, but if the Government were to be successful I believe it would represent the greatest boon that the United Kingdom could provide for the overburdened, underprivileged and underfed countries of the Commonwealth in Asia. Those of your Lordships who take comfort
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in the belief that population pressure is not one of the great problems of the world that demand attention will no doubt take added comfort in the fact that, in any current assessment of world problems, high place is given, and very properly given, to the limitation of armaments, East-West relationships and, a little closer to home, to the European Common Market and British-American relations, with practically never a mention of population pressure. Holding the belief in the importance of this subject that I do, I ask myself: Why is this so? It is no doubt because it is not happening here, but to a large section of mankind half the world away. It may be because it is regarded as a problem for those countries which suffer from it and not for us; it may be because it is not an immediate menace of to-day or to-morrow but is a gradual, creeping, relatively slow-motion menace; and perhaps it is because one of the great churches has so far been antagonistic to its consideration.
As against this, I submit that those people of consequence in India and elsewhere who know the facts and the inevitable trend believe that the need for action now to cope with it is urgent, as it is approaching the point of no return. Every year that goes by makes the problem more intractable, with its devastating economic and political consequences if nothing is done about it. It is also the fact that the remedy for it is in the hands of the West and not in the hands of those who suffer from it. My Lords, I end with a plea to Her Majesty's Government, and perhaps, in particular, to the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations and to the noble Viscount the Minister for Science, to give heed to this great problem—heed and sympathetic understanding. I beg to move for Papers.
2.52 p.m.
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Casey, has on other occasions drawn the attention of this House to the rapidly-growing population of South-East Asia and to the abysmal poverty which is the common lot of millions of families in those regions. In his opening remarks he said we had not reacted favourably. I can only say to him, as I took part in the debate last year, that if this House has

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failed to provide a solution to these vast problems, at least the noble Lord has always had a sympathetic response.
We must all appreciate the anxieties of small countries like Australia and New Zealand as they watch the rising population in South-East Asia. Nevertheless, I believe we must welcome the fact that the Malthusian doctrine has not prevailed in Asia or India—a high degree of malnutrition, perhaps, but the gloomy predictions of Malthus have been disproved, and hunger has not decimated those densely populated regions. The West have learnt that a high birth-rate, which is always associated with poverty, ignorance and fatalism, can be effectively reduced by raising the standard of living and introducing compulsory education. It is significant that in those countries where there has been compulsory education for two generations the birth-rate has been stabilised. However, I recognise that this is a long-term solution in regions with a high population density; and, of course, this is not the occasion to examine the economic and fiscal problems of these countries. I say, with all due deference to the noble Lord, that perhaps it is not the time to examine the racial policy of Australia, either.
My concern with the noble Lord's speech is not that I view the situation with complacency: I share his apprehensions, but I dissent very strongly from his specific short-term solution—namely, the use of oral contraceptives.
LORD CASEY: My Lords, may I venture to correct the noble Lady? I did not pretend to say what particular type of contraceptive: nor, I think, did I mention oral contraceptives.
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL: If the noble Lord examines his speech of last year, he will see that he referred to oral contraceptives and mentioned the kind that were being used in America, and if he examines Hansard to-morrow he will discover that he actually mentioned Conovid. I listened to the noble Lord very carefully. He will surely recall that just before my noble friend intervened and asked him what he meant by "socially acceptable" he said to this House to-day that the oral contraceptive which was acceptable in this country could not be used in Asia because
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twenty pills had to be taken every month. I think the noble Lord said that. I understand my hearing was accurate.
LORD CASEY: We must look at Hansard to-morrow.
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL: He said last year that that would not be suitable for Asia; that the ideal thing would be to find an oral contraceptive which functioned in the same way but which called for the illiterate women of Asia to take only two pills a month. If the noble Lord examines his speeches, he will find that I am absolutely correct.
Unfortunately, last year I had spoken before the noble Lord did; otherwise, I would have advanced some of these views then: but I must say that, in view of certain statements by eminent doctors in this country during the last year, I am in a much stronger position to review his suggestions than I was last year. I believe that the noble Lord has shown a genuine concern for the vast, under-nourished populations of South-East Asia. One does not question his sincerity, but his solution of the problem may well aggravate, not alleviate, the misery and wretchedness of millions of illiterate, inarticulate women. I am not opposed to birth control. As a woman doctor, I have always regarded it as a most important form of preventive medicine. The mechanical forms of birth control are widely used in this country, and the planned family is a concept which is now accepted by all income-groups—and that is precisely why the noble Lord, in his final remarks, quite rightly reminded this House that the population increase in this country was very small. By all means allow people in overcrowded countries to obtain means of using harmless methods of birth control, but we must not further encourage some members of the pharmaceutical industry hastily to produce new products which can be effective only by inhibiting the ovulatory process.
The noble Lord has quoted a number of eminent men (most of them, I think, big businessmen), who approve of the principle of birth control; but among them he did not mention one endocrinologist—that is, an authority

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on the ductless glands—who whole heartedly approved of the oral contraceptive. Nevertheless, again he advances the same argument as he advanced last year: that this is the answer to the population problem. He mentioned the names of some of the oral contraceptives on the market last year, as I have said, and to-day he mentioned Conovid, which so many doctors in this country—and this is a very good test of any drug—refuse to prescribe for their patients. There have been only limited trials of this American preparation, some in this country but mostly in other countries; and in view of the opinions expressed by eminent authorities I doubt whether any doctor would prescribe the pill for his own wife and subject her delicate pituitary gland to the bombardment of this compound.
Professor Sir Charles Dodds is one of the foremost endocrinologists in this country, and therefore an authority on this subject. In fact, he is now the President of the Royal College of Physicians. In a lecture to the Society for Endocrinology—whose members were men and women Who devote their lives to the study of this subject—this is what he said; and I ask noble Lords to forgive me if I quote his words in some detail, because it is a highly technical subject and has a tremendous importance to-day to this country, and, indeed, to the whole world. He said:
"The continuous or cyclical use of these compounds may foreseeably have other undesirable effects which the trials conducted to date have not resolved. Such effects, for instance, when their use is continued throughout the reproductive period of a woman, might involve the pituitary, mammary glands or ovary."
He went on:
"The fact that in a relatively short period nothing has been found does not really indicate very much. Whilst everything might appear all right on the surface, there may be deep-seated changes going on in the body. It would seem very unlikely to me that the abolition of a cyclical process such as ovulation can be accomplished over a long time without profoundly affecting other processes, and the fact that there appears to be no change for a period is not, I suggest, reassuring."
He then said:
"Even if you thoroughly understand the mechanism of a clock, provided it is going well it is very much better to leave it alone; but to interfere with its mechanism if you do not understand it can be disastrous."
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He expressed his fears to the Family Planning Association in October of last year, and warned them of the dangers, particularly if the treatment is prolonged.
Later on, no doubt, other doctors may be quoted; but I think that the noble Lord, Lord Casey, should hear what the British Medical Journal said, because they are there to assist both sides who express opinions on this matter. On September 16, 1961, in an editorial on the contraceptive pill, the British Medical Journal said this:
"The mechanism by which these drugs inhibit ovulation is not precisely understood, but they are believed to block the synthesis of certain hormones in the anterior pituitary gland. In the present state of knowledge, based first on animal experiments, and later on clinical trials, no certain answer seems possible to several important questions. One is whether the endocrine system will become permanently impaired, and perhaps fertility reduced or destroyed. Another question is whether these substances could be carcinogenic. Though the likelihood of these oral contraceptives being carcinogenic is probably extremely remote, and though fears that they might cause congenital defects in babies born subsequently are probably groundless, it still remains to be shown that the suppression of ovulation over long periods is harmless to the endocrine system and to ovario-uterine relations."
May I now ask noble Lords to go into the Library this week and to look at the Lancet? An editorial in the Lancet, which is a paper that tries to collect the voices of the medical profession, and to approach matters objectively, is devoted to the danger of oral contraceptives, and echoes the warnings of the British Medical Journal. It says:
"The use of oral contraceptives cannot be contemplated without considerable trepidation. … Twenty years may go by before we can be sure about the safety of the present oral contraceptives."
These are words of wisdom. I believe that when the American company originally responsible for the oral contraceptive practice conducted their trials, they used Puerto Rican women as the guinea pigs for these tests. I say, let twenty years elapse, and let us see what happens to these women, and whether these fears of one of the finest endrocrinologists in the country are realised, before we enter into more trials or before we take these drugs to densely populated areas.
My Lords, I want to be constructive. I favour the view of Mr. Linton Snaith.

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Mr. Linton Snaith is the senior obstetrician and gynæcologist of the Newcastle General Hospital. He has written considerably on gynæcology and obstetrics. He has expressed concern about oral contraceptives in family planning association clinics, and he says:
"It is best to limit the contraceptive pill to experiments already in progress, to hospital clinics, and to patients suffering from gynæcological conditions which justify this treatment."
That, I believe, is the sane and the reasonable approach. Many of us deplore the fact that the Family Planning Association, with its splendid record, has not shown greater caution. I realise that the noble Lord, Lord Brain, was chosen as the President of the Family Planning Association, and his well-known name has been very useful to them. But he, of course, as a neurologist, can look at this matter objectively.
The noble Lord, Lord Casey, discussed various means whereby further progress could be made. I can assure the noble Lord that the pharmaceutical firms producing oral contraceptives are not waiting for encouragement from the Government to investigate a cheaper pill for the Asian market. Indeed, they are showing a reckless haste, in this country and abroad. Last week I read that a conference on birth control is being held in the Near East with the co-operation of a pharmaceutical manufacturiing firm concerned with the use of oral contraceptives. Surely, to say the least, this is premature, having regard to the illiteracy existing in the Near East and the shortage of doctors, which would preclude careful supervision.
Doctors who oppose the new oral contraceptives have been called "fuddy-duddies" and "old-fashioned" by the London organiser of the Family Planning Association. I have never in the past been called a "fuddy-duddy" or been accused of being "old-fashioned" but I am quite prepared to accept that label because I feel that I am in very good company in this matter. A British Medical Association spokesman said last week that he was very surprised at the tone of these remarks. He said:
"I think it is rather unwise to sneer at the caution felt by a lot of doctors towards these pills. The pills, to my knowledge, have only been tested for about five years. There are
618
many things we still do not know about their side effects."
I was further astonished by the noble Lord when he suggested that £1 million or £2 million should be taken from the quite inadequate aid given to underdeveloped countries for research into these oral contraceptives; and, indeed, that some of this money could be directed towards the pharmaceutical companies. I can assure him that the pharmaceutical companies are making colossal profits. If he cares to read the Report of the Public Accounts Committee, he will see that the profits which they make out of the National Health Service are such that there is an ample margin for research, without supplementing their profits with some of the money now sent to underdeveloped countries for food and social services. Unfortunately, my Lords, powerful new drugs are marketed to-day by some men who are not moved by human compassion or guided by high ethical standards. They adopt the same methods in selling their wares as the producers of detergents. Doctors are deluged every day with their highly-coloured advertisements, and a constant stream of smooth tongued commercial travellers waste the doctors' precious time.
This modern menace of the drug purveyors has become a social problem in the United States. I would remind noble Lords of the recent glaring case in this country, which I raised in this House and which was raised in another place—the"example of the distribution of Distaval, a so-called tranquilliser, which, when taken by the expectant mother, causes severe abnormalities in the foetus. It will shock the House when they hear that on May 14 of this year Professor Graham Wilson, Professor of Pharmacology and Therapeutics at Sheffield University, stated that in the last year more than half the drugs issued had not been clinically tested.
Of course, there has been no shortage of customers for cheap oral contraceptives. A woman's happiness depends primarily upon happy personal relations in the home. The fact that an oral contraceptive might have most serious long-term ill-effects will not deter some women, desperately anxious to establish short-term personal happiness. The woman who has had a number of unwanted pregnancies will consume

619
contraceptive pills reckless of the consequences, just as she will resort to an abortionist at the risk of her life. The marketing of oral contraceptives promises a colossal margin of profit, for there is no frontier and no limit to the market. The sex instinct is universal. The consumption of this pill would not be limited to a group suffering from a specific disease. All the powerful media of advertising and propaganda would be directed at the healthy, with a promise of enjoyment without fear of the consequences. Even if the doctors could exercise control or afford any protection, they are in such tiny minorities in the Asian countries that their protection would be negligible. The ignorant and illiterate would be the victims of some unscrupulous purveyor of drugs. For all these reasons, I would ask the noble Lord sincerely to reconsider, between now and next year, his immediate solution to the problem of over-population.
3.13 p.m.
LORD MIL VERTON: My Lords, until yesterday I had no intention of taking part in this debate, but it occurred to me then that perhaps it would be no bad thing if somebody spoke on the subject who looked at this problem from the point of view of an administrator and was not a political idealist or a medical expert. The Motion starts by asking Her Majesty's Government
"if they have considered the consequences of the present rate of population growth in Asia".
However blind or deaf one might think the British Government are, they cannot avoid being conscious of this, because they are still responsible for Hong Kong, and the normal population of Hong Kong, which was about 600,000, has risen since 1949 to about 3,250,000, and Hong Kong is now bursting at the seams with refugees from China. Conditions there are inevitably appalling. Hong Kong has been left to bear this terrible burden alone. If ever the conscience of the world ought to have been awakened, it surely should have been over a situation like this. The refugees from Europe, the Arab refugees from Israel, and refugees from other parts of the world have had funds collected and generously distributed to help them,
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but apparently the world is blind to this appalling Asian problem.
The way I am trying to look at this question this afternoon is that birth control can be only an adjunct, not the final solution. I am not denying the value of increased knowledge of birth control, but even if the miracle which the noble Lord, Lord Casey, seems to have dreamed of, a new method of birth control, which could suddenly be used and would be socially acceptable, were found, it would not have its effect now. The problem before the world to-day, a problem which has caused wars in the past and may yet cause something like a world war in the future, is what is going to be done with these millions of surplus people who are craving some outlet and some means of a better and higher standard of living. One has only to read the First Report of the Colombo Plan Committee, in which they detailed how they had poured millions of pounds into India to help the people there, and the net result was merely to cause scores of millions who would probably otherwise have died to go on living on the margin of subsistence.
This is an administrative problem of the highest order and, whatever way one may look at it, there is no possible short-terms solution; it is bound to be a long educational, cultural and economic solution and it lies with the Governments concerned. The countries we are speaking of are independent countries. How can we approach them with the idea that we have perfected a scientific method for curtailing the growth of their race—one which, I understand, we are not prepared to apply in this country? We have been assured this afternoon that this is not for England. I have had experience in countries abroad where birth control is not socially acceptable and the cry arises that this is a new trick of the European in order to stop the growth of races whose increase he does not desire to see. The accusation that we are engaged in genocide is so easy to raise and so difficult to combat or disprove. As your Lordships will gather, I am a pessimist in relation to the immediate solution of this problem. I do not think that there is any scientific solution which can be other than an adjunct to education and economic and cultural influences, and these must be long-term influences.

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If your Lordships will pardon a reminiscence of mine, some years ago, when I was in Jamaica, I had the opportunity of spending a day in the company of President: Roosevelt. He talked to me about these problems and asked what we were doing about them in the West Indies. I said: "Mr. President, I have devoted a great deal of thought to this and I do not know of any short-term solution. The opposition one creates by trying through Government sources to promote birth control, as any administrator will tell you, is grave and serious. It is apt to defeat its own purpose. "The President said to me:"In my opinion there is only one solution, and it is this. First of all, we must make children a liability and not an asset, which means that you get people to the stage where they do not allow child labour and things of that kind." Then he said: "You must teach people, through education and so forth, to want things that only money can buy, and by this means you will slowly get them to restrict their families voluntarily, because otherwise they cannot live the sort of life they would wish to live". That may sound very material; but, again speaking as an administrator, one has to consider these material things.
It is no good being too lofty-minded; one is dealing with human nature. I suggest that that is precisely what we shall have to look forward to doing, with the assistance, of course, which the doctors can give and which I do not decry for one moment although it is only a secondary thing. Finally, I should like to emphasise the fact that the problem before us now is this: what are we going to do about these millions of people who are spilling over? It is no good thinking too far ahead. That is a problem that will upset all our plans unless we deal with it at an early date. For that reason I feel that, while I could not agree more with the eloquent way in which the noble Lord, Lord Casey, has described the situation which has arisen, I could not possibly concur with what he suggests is the solution.
3.22 p.m.
LORD BEVERIDGE: My Lords, I return to-day for the first time, after a month or more in the hands of doctors, to active action in this House, and I am glad to have the chance of doing so on
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a Motion such as that moved by the noble Lord, Lord Casey. I congratulate him on raising a problem common to all the world—namely, the size of population in relation to the standard of living. I heard the noble Lord on this occasion making much the same general observations as he did on a previous one. I want to urge that this is a problem that must be left to each country to decide for itself. The density of population of each country is for its own decision, as also is the question of any steps to be taken to give effect to that decision. It is not, I think, for an outside nation to take any action to influence the decision of another nation on this point. It is not for us to adopt a policy designed to force the people of another nation to accept a plan of contraception which they do not want, or to say that we will not help them financially in some way or another unless they do what we want them to do.
But while it is for each nation to decide on the density of population of their own country, it is most important to point out what effect the density of population may have on the standard of living. I happen to be studying the history of this country. I think I can say quite certainly that when, in the sixteenth century, we set out to industrialise the country much more, and increase its population, we also raised its standard of living. There was unquestionably a large increase of population in Britain, although we have no definite figures; and there is no question that what happened in the sixteenth century was the beginning of a new life in this country and of an improvement in the standard of living.
I want to suggest that this problem of the relation between the total population and the standard of living is a question for each country to decide for itself. It is not a question for any one country to decide for another, or to use its power to enforce on others its own policy. I do not think it is the business of any one country to interfere in this matttr with another country. It is not our business, because there is no reason to-day to fear the power of other countries in war, in so far as population is concerned. War to-day does not depend simply on numbers. Success in war, as we all know, has come to depend upon the

623
strange, unusual powers which we have learned to use in nuclear war and on our devotion to killing people, irrespective of the risk to ourselves. I would say, therefore, that it is not right to make the question of economic co-operation with other countries depend in any way upon their numbers, and least of all on their attitude to contraception. I hope that we shall make known the facts in regard to the growth of population. I am thankful for what the noble Lord, Lord Casey, has done to bring these facts before us, and I hope that what he has said here will lead to their being brought before others. But I repeat that, having the facts before it, each country must decide for itself.
There are some countries to which any form of contraception would be most unacceptable, while there are others who would find it more acceptable, or might find some method which they could use with safety without destroying any of the traditions of their country. This is not an international problem; it is a purely national one. I think that, subject to all countries having taken any necessary steps to put an end to war, within that limit, every country should be free to manage its own domestic arrangements, and all will be helped towards doing that by having put before them the kind of facts which the noble Lord, Lord Casey, has tried to put, and others may also try to put, of the relation between the size and density of a population and the growth of a population in relation to the standard of living. My Lords, that is all I have to say. I hope that I may have other occasions of listening to addresses as interesting and as important as those of the noble Lord, Lord Casey, and of learning by them.
3.30 p.m.
THE LORD BISHOP OF LONDON: My Lords, many of us would agree with the noble Lord, Lord Beveridge—whom we are glad to see back in this House restored from the clutches of the doctors and, we hope, to many years of participation with us—that this question is one which ultimately can be determined only by the nations concerned. In the previous debates on this general subject, a good deal has been said from these Benches to indicate that on the side of the Christian Churches we would per-
624
haps wish to take that limitation even further. In the debate last year the right reverend Prelates, the Lord Bishop of St. Albans and the Lord Bishop of St. Edmundsbury and Ipswich, expounded the general position which was taken up by the Lambeth Conference of 1958. I would not wish to traverse again the ground which they covered so adequately. In brief, our belief then was and, I believe, still is, so strongly in the importance of personal relationships that we would wish to put the responsibility for the regulation of birth directly upon the parents, without any interference by anyone else.
If I may remind your Lordships, in Resolution 115 of the Lambeth Conference we stated our belief that
"the responsibility for deciding upon the number and frequency of children has been laid by God upon the consciences of parents everywhere and that this planning, in such ways as are mutually acceptable to husband and wife in Christian conscience, is a right and important factor in Christian family life."
To those general principles, I think we in the Church of England, by and large, would still adhere.
The noble Lord, Lord Casey, in his moving speech, has shown again his deep concern for the problems of overpopulation, and we all need to remember this as essentially a human problem. Behind the statistics lie vast numbers of persons and children who are suffering from malnutrition, of youths and adults frustrated by the inability to find land to till or jobs to perform. The Christian conscience must be deeply concerned with their needs, and there can be no shadow of doubt that those needs claim the compassion and such assistance as can be given of the whole world. In the long-term, I would agree wholeheartedly with what has already been said, that the solution of the problem lies in the education of the people so that they can make better use of the resources which they have, and so to assist them with capital, machinery and the technical skills that they can increasingly help themselves to meet their own needs.
Perhaps, too, we need to pay more attention to securing a better distribution of peoples, so that the rapid increase of population is not only centred in areas where national resources are depleted and the soil already exhausted. We need education in the responsibility

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of parenthood and family life. I am perhaps more optimistic in these matters than the noble Lord, Lord Milverton, appeared to be, but I have no illusions about the length of time which will be needed to establish, through education and economic development, a balance between the increase of population and the increase in productivity. So we feel a need for short-term measures. Among them, the limitation of population by the regulation of birth is most certainly something which must be considered by those who are responsible for the decision in other lands.
But there is a very deep division upon the proper means of regulation. I was disappointed that the noble Lord, Lord Casey, emphasised the need for research to produce a socially acceptable solution in terms of what he called a biological contraceptive which would be simple and effective. Christian opinion is deeply divided upon the moral legitimacy of birth regulation by the use of contraceptives of any kind. Whatever one's own personal views on that may be, it is to be hoped that there will be research not confined to only one method of family planning. We need more scientific inquiry into all the possible and effective methods of birth regulation which do not remove from parents the responsibility for choice, which rightly belongs to them, and to them alone.
Under the mounting pressure of hunger—the certainty that if another child is born other children will have less to eat—people resort to means of control such as infanticide and abortion, which are so cruel, so insensitive and contrary to moral law that we must rule them out of our calculations. Is sterilisation an acceptable means of controlling population? Here again, the medical evidence is conflicting, and the question whether male sterilisation is reversible seems in doubt. The ethical arguments involved are extraordinarily difficult for the Christian conscience. Are there other alternatives which can be socially acceptable and which will not offend the conscience? If so, we need to know them, and it is to that I would hope that such research as goes on may be increasingly directed. Whatever its results, there remain problems of ethics and conscience for the Christian Church. But as was said in a recent report of
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an inquiry fey a group acting on behalf of the Church Assembly Board for Social Responsibility:
"Traditional moral theology has not been called upon to consider the extent of the obligations of parenthood under the threat of over-population as we are to-day."
We who believe that the Holy Spirit guides us into all truth must be prepared for modifications of former attitudes. But it is truth in its fullness which is promised us in Holy Scripture, and what we need more and more is what scientific research can tell us about the whole truth connected with population regulation.

IMPORTS OF COTTON TEXTILES
3.38 p.m.
EARL WALDEGRAVE: My Lords, with your Lordships' permission, I should like to make a statement on behalf of my right honourable friend the Minister without Portfolio, similar to that which my right honourable friend the President of the Board of Trade is making in answer to questions in another place about imports of cotton textiles and other matters affecting the cotton industry. I will use his own words.
"The Government have received, through the Government of Hong Kong, an offer from the Hong Kong industry to continue up to the end of 1965 the present ceilings on their exports of cotton piece goods and made-ups for retention in this country, and, in addition, to limit yarn exports to the 1961 rate. The limitation of yarn exports is a new feature which would come into operation shortly.
"The Government are aware that the British industries concerned regard these levels as excessive, and very strong representations have been made by the Cotton Board to secure a reduction.
"On the one hand, the Government recognise the serious difficulties which a large volume of imports cause to these industries; on the other hand, the Government are bound to take account of the importance of textile exports to the economies of the Commonwealth

627
countries concerned. They believe that the proposed ceiling is reasonable in all the circumstances and they have decided that the offer should be accepted.
"This offer is subject to the acceptance of similar arrangements on the part of India and Pakistan, which I am expecting shortly.
"Certain matters remain to be settled and the arrangements would be on the basis of the present system whereby cotton textiles from Commonwealth countries enter Britain duty free. If, as a result of the negotiations in Brussels, there were to be any change in this system, the Governments and industries concerned would naturally reserve their right to reconsider the matter.
"The long-term Geneva Arrangement is due to come into operation in October next. The Government intend to accept it for the United Kingdom subject to a reservation exempting us from obligations under the Arrangement to admit increased imports.
"These measures will ensure stability over a large part of the market. Supplies from all the major low-cost Asian producers are now regulated either by voluntary means or otherwise. Imports from Japan, Formosa, China and the Eastern bloc countries are under licensing control. This will continue. Imports from Spain are limited by agreement with the Spanish industry. All imports of cotton cloth from foreign countries pay import duty. I am circulating in the OFFICIAL Report Tables of figures relating to different areas since 1959.
"Cotton textiles is a trade where exports from new sources may grow
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very rapidly. The Government intend to keep the situation under review and are therefore introducing a system of open individual licensing. This involves the withdrawal of the present Open General Licence under which cotton piece goods, certain made-ups and yarn may be freely imported from most sources, but it does not entail new restrictions. A full announcement of the details of the licensing arrangements is being isued to-day.
"It would be unfair to those countries who are voluntarily restricting their supplies to this market if other countries took advantage of such restraint to increase their own sales. Countries with no traditional trade in cotton textiles should not count on being able to build up a new market in Britain.
"There is one further matter to which I should refer. The Cotton Industry Act, 1959, allowed three years for the submission of applications for re-equipment grant. This period ends on July 8. Firms intending to submit applications to the Cotton Board should do so without delay. They will still have another year to place their orders with machinery makers and up to July, 1964, to complete installation of the plant.
"This statement will enable firms in the industry to judge where they stand and to decide upon their future action. Much special help is being given to the industry, but the industry itself has a great deal to do."
My Lords, that is my right honourable friend's statement.
Following are the tables referred to in the statement:

STATISTICAL TABLES

TABLE 1

ANNUAL CEILINGS FOR CLOTH AND MADE-UP GOODS (CLOTH EQUIVALENT) IMPORTED FOR RETENTION

Million sq. yds.

—

Original

Current*

Hong Kong

164 (February, 1959-January, 1962)

185

India

175 (January, 1960-December, 1961)

195

Pakistan

38 (January, 1960-December, 1961)

42

377

422

* NOTE: Provision is made in the present arrangements for the issue of supplementary quotas, on certain conditions, if this is necessary to ensure that the voluntary restraint exercised by these countries does not prejudice their share of the United Kingdom market in relation to other exporting countries.

TABLE 2

IMPORTS, FOR RETENTION, FROM HONG KONG, INDIA AND PAKISTAN

Million sq. yds.

—

1959

1960

1961

1962 (1st Quarter)

Piece Goods

305

320

259

60

Made-up goods (cloth equivalent)

61

77

73

23

366

397

332

83

TABLE 3

IMPORTS OR COTTON PIECE GOODS

Million sq. yds.

—

1959

1960

1961

1961

1962

1st Quarter

2nd Quarter

3rd Quarter

4th Quarter

1st Quarter

Total imports of which for re-export

525

713

714

221

192

163

138

143

153

191

193

55

54

47

37

30

For retention of which

372

521

521

166

138

116

101

113

A. Duty free

From Hong Kong India and Pakistan

305

320

259

83

72

61

43

60

From Canada

—

10

22

5

6

5

6

3

From other Commonwealth countries and Irish Republic

4

6

11

2

3

2

3

2

Total duty-free

309

336

292

90

81

68

52

65

B. Dutiable

From countries now restrained

17

74

90

27

22

22

19

16

From Western Europe and U.S.A

44

82

95

31

24

17

22

23

Other countries

2

29

44

18

11

9

8

9

Total dutiable

63

185

229

76

57

48

49

48

* Western Europe: West Germany, Netherlands, Belgium, France, Italy, Austria and Switzerland.

LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, the House will be grateful to the noble Earl for the statement he has just made. It is undoubtedly true that the cotton industry is in very considerable difficulties to-day, and the high hopes which the Government must have had, and which I think were also held in certain sections of this House, that the Cotton Industry Act, 1959, would create an atmosphere in which the cotton industry could reorganise itself and face its problems have not, regrettably, been fulfilled. Any form of restriction, particularly on Commonwealth countries, must be regretted, but I think in these circumstances it is necessary, and it is indeed good to see that Hong Kong has voluntarily agreed to these restrictions. I hope that we shall shortly have news that India and Pakistan will also agree to some arrangement. But the question which no doubt we must ask ourselves is what is going to be the position with this country's possible entry into the Common Market? These countries may well be excluded from the arrangements and this may well mean that instead of having these voluntary quotas within which they may work they will have fairly high tariffs acting against their imports. This is, of course, something which we must take into account, particularly as we listen to the debate this afternoon, and when we consider the recent large numbers of refugees that have made their way to Hong Kong.
I should like to ask the noble Earl this point and if he is not able to answer this afternoon perhaps he would convey these remarks to the Minister. Under the Cotton Industry Act, 1959, the period for their application for a re-equipment grant will end on July 8. I am sure the Minister would agree that there is considerable uncertainty and lack of confidence within the industry and very few firms have taken the opportunity of making applications for re-equipment. I wonder therefore whether the noble Earl would consider the extension for, say, twelve months in which cotton industry firms could make application for this re-equipment grant so that we can first of all see the effect of the measures which have been announced this afternoon and also take into account what may arise if the Government is successful in its negotiations in Brussels.
LORD REA: My Lords, I should like also to thank the noble Earl for this Statement and to ask him just one thing. I think he said that Her Majesty's Government have received an offer from the Government of Hong Kong. Could he tell us whether that was a voluntary offer by the Hong Kong Government or whether pressure was exerted from this country or some other country? After all Hong Kong is a very grave responsibility of ours and with its population trouble I am sure none of us would like to see its employment dropping in any sense. I wonder how it is that Hong Kong, being in the rather difficult situation it is, are making a voluntary offer to reduce its exports to this country.
EARL WALDEGRAVE: My Lords, I will very briefly reply to those points. I am glad that your Lordships welcome this Statement. There will, of course, be increased competition from European textiles in the British market if we join the European Economic Community and, of course, increased scope for British exports. It is not possible to say what will be the outcome of the negotiations on Commonwealth Asian textiles. I will bring to the notice of my right honourable friend the request that the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, made that there should be an extension of date for the re-equipment grants, but I should not like to comment on that at all. I have just spoken fully about applications for re-equipment grants in this Statement. With regard to the question of the noble Lord, Lord Rea, I would not be able to say at this juncture what pressure, if any, brought about this offer from Hong Kong. I would not like to go any further than that.
LORD KILLEARN: My Lords, before the noble Earl sits down I should like strongly to support what the noble Lord, Lord Rea, has said. As a very frequent visitor to Hong Kong over a great many years I have been astonished at the growth of that area. It is hard to realise, sitting here, that they are within 30 miles of the edge of a volcano, yet they carry on regardless and most courageously. I do not think we should in any way embarras them if we can avoid doing so. I do not know what has been done in the way of consultation but I rise only to say that as an enormous admirer

633
of Hong Kong I hope we are not putting undue pressure on them.
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, may I just say to the noble Earl that in Hong Kong it is not a question of development in textiles. What they want is diversification of their industry.

POPULATION PRESSURE IN ASIA
3.48 p.m.
Debate resumed.
THE EARL OF LYTTON: My Lords, being not entirely familiar with the procedure of your Lordships' House I thought that in the last few minutes there had been a declaration and that it had occurred just before I was due to bat. I think we go on now with the debate on birth control, and I should like to offer my respectful congratulations to the noble Lord, Lord Casey, whom I cannot directly address owing to the position of my microphone but who, with his resounding voice, certainly raised the subject above the furtive level.
I want to begin by saying that I recognise the problem which he has put and sympathise with the Government to whom he has put it to-day. I came in feeling, as other noble Lords have expressed it, that we were perhaps out of order in addressing ourselves to a subject concerning the peoples of Asia, but I remember that the noble Lord in his speech said most emphatically that his friends in India, I believe Mr. Nehru and others, had been pressing for this matter to be examined in the United States, and therefore from the point of view of people at the top it seems quite fitting that it should have been done. However, I share the misgivings of other noble Lords who have implied that we are telling other people to limit their population. I have a strong feeling that we, and even the leaders in India, might find ourselves in the position of certain Victorians in this country when they said to themselves quietly over the port, "What can we do to prevent the lower orders breeding so rapidly like rabbits?"; and that is the kind of expression I have heard. We have in this country and in Europe, so far as I can make out, multiplied our population in the last 250 years about ten-fold, and
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our wealth also ten-fold. But for the increase in the population it would not have been possible to raise that wealth. It seems to me that we are preaching that others should operate in a different order. What seems to have happened with us was that we multiplied in poverty, we organised our power and resources in intelligence and made people better off and then they had smaller families. That was the order in which it occurred.
I share the misgivings with regard to the speed at which this pill, even if it is desirable, can be discovered. It does not exist, and twenty years seems a short time for the experiment to take place. Then these people have to be taught how to manage it, how to distinguish between one pill and another. I have lived amongst primitive peoples; there is the heat and the flies, the endemic malaria and the dysentry, their needs, which are so great, and the squalor and burden of life. It seems to me that if we take twenty, fifty, sixty, a hundred years as the time by which the increase can be halted we are being exceedingly optimistic.
Meantime people are alive to-day and people will come into being regardless of what happens. Even if we are successful with the pill beyond our dreams—those who have dreams about it—people will come in and exist. As regards numbers, I have no objection to Indians multiplying exceedingly; I like Indians; I like Africans. It seems to me we have not made the point in this debate that it is not absolute numbers or absolute over-population which is in question; it is the relationship between people, food, power. These things are interrelated. It does not matter if the coloured peoples of this world come to number a hundred to every white man. That does not worry me in the slightest, and it is most likely to happen. What is important is the relationship between the resources on earth and the people. It has been said by everybody, I think, who described it that we have had a population explosion, and an explosion is something which comes and rises to a peak and then dies away. I do not believe anybody expects that the rate of increase everywhere will go on throughout the world. If it does, as the United Nations experts have predicted, in 600 years there

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will be a square metre per person. It is not expected, even if there is no such pill.
Meanwhile, people are alive, and some time or other I hope we may have a debate in which a less one-sided study of the problem should be embarked upon. The earth has resources in space; there are under-populated areas. I read only a day or two ago of the insoluble problem of American farm surpluses, in spite of dust bowls 50 million acres in extent, and of thousands of millions of dollars spent in holding surplus wheat while people starve elsewhere. There are unpopulated and under-populated areas in America, Canada, Brazil, Borneo, New Guinea and elsewhere, almost all over the world. Movements of people can take place in emergency, and they do. That is one of the things that might be done. The squandering of the earth's resources in erosion, as I have seen in Africa and America, can be stopped; it can be reversed.
There is also power. I might call attention to a book by my right honourable friend and kinsman, Mr. Philip Noel-Baker, a book which won him the Nobel Peace Prize. On pages 96 and 116 of that book he dwells upon the new sources of power which are beyond any dreams we have ever had. For example, deuterium in the oceans, if it can be harnessed other than in an explosive context, is available in such abundance to provide for 1,000 million years power many times greater than we use at present. This is the threshold of new things at which we stand. As regards the application of that power, he quotes an English authority as saying it would be reasonable to expect that sea water could be distilled for the irrigation of Australia at 5s. per million gallons. An American calculates that at present standards, with such irrigation, Australia could hold a population of 200 million. On Indian standards that would be about 1.600 million, or half the population of the world as it is to-day. I hope that sometime this problem of population will be considered in its balanced context, as, I submit, it has not been to-day. I should like to say two things as regards the question of the limiting of families. First, in going about among primitive peoples one cannot help but be exceedingly sorry and wish for a change in the
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status of women and their children. In many primitive countries they are nothing much better than slaves, and it is an improvement of their status which is required. A family of more sensible size would then come about. Instead of marrying at ten, it should be eighteen. There is no room in Africa, for instance, for the spinster. I have female relatives, getting on in years, who, like Dorcas, are full of good works. They have no families, but they have a place. There is no such place for spinsters in many parts of the world. Then there is the question of the spacing of children.
May I give an illustration of a tribe in Africa where this limitation is practised? One way, which would be, I think, approved by everybody in this House, is used by the Borana, who have tribal customs whereby the husband may have no intercourse with his wife during the weaning of her children, which lasts for two years. That means that there must be a space of three years between the wife's children. There is no intercourse between unmarried people, and any man who seduces an unmarried girl is liable, or was until after occupation by other empires, to punishment, even the punishment of death. There were three crimes which warranted the death penalty in this tribe: murder, intercourse with unmarried girls, and intercourse with the wife who was weaning her baby. These habits of abstinence are not peculiar to highly refined Christians; they are found everywhere, and the things we have done in Africa which are not so good have damaged the systems which held the tribes together. It is true that in some other tribes different customs prevail for which we should not care so much, or at least some people would not, but they resemble the contraceptive methods in use in this country.
I should like to say how much I agree with what the noble Baroness, Lady Summerskill, said about the risks of this pill. There is one thing only in connection with it that I should like to say—namely, that it seems to me that, if it were developed, one might produce a solution welcome to a great many people other than herself. Even then, according to what she says and what I have heard, there is this bombardment and interference with the process of ovulation. It sounds, on the face of it, the wrong line

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to pursue as a scientific study, in view of the fact that the rhythm has its periods of low fertility which perhaps, with the aid of drugs or more scientific knowledge, could be more accurately ascertained than it is at present. I do not believe that the use of relative abstinence or contraceptives can be practised without discipline and education. The only way I differ from the noble Baroness is that I think education cannot come in utter squalor; you must have wealth first.
Therefore I would say that our contribution to the East is the contribution that the wealthy must bestow on the less wealthy by means of trade and capital investment. I do not agree with those who say that it is entirely the affair of these countries. I am doubtful whether that can be proved, established practically, at any time. We in this country have experienced the clamour for fair shares between those who have less and those who have much. I feel certain that this clamour is going to be transposed into the field between struggling Asia and the wealthy West; and that unless help on a massive scale is forthcoming—by "massive scale" I mean something like sacrificing half of our progress in the next 25 years, involving all the countries of the West—I do not think we can justify ourselves in preaching to them doctrines of birth control. They come asking us for capital, for bread, and we give them a pill. That does not seem to be right.
4.4 p.m.
LORD BRAIN: My Lords, as the noble Lord, Lord Casey, has said, the population problem is second only to the problem of disarmament in urgency and in the extent and importance of its implications, and in some respects it is more complex. Although as President of the Family Planning Association I am particularly concerned with one method of dealing with it, it is in my view essential to look at all the aspects of the problem; and if this debate does no more than draw more attention to a crisis in human affairs which is going to determine the future course of civilisation, it will serve a useful purpose. But I hope it will do more than that, and that Her Majesty's Government may be persuaded that they have some
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responsibility in this matter and should take some action.
As we have heard, the population of the world is now increasing more rapidly than ever before. Any estimate is necessarily to some extent speculative, but it is as likely to be too low as too high. At present, the world's population increases at the rate of about 50 million people a year—that is to say, since this debate began 5,000 additional mouths to feed have been added to it. On a minimum estimate made in a United Nations study, the present world population of about 3,000 million is likely to be about 6,000 million in the year 2,000. Why is this happening? As we have heard, it is because the great advances which have been made in preventive medicine are saving millions of lives, and not only is the expectation of life prolonged but millions who would have died survive to have children. We must face the fact that, whatever can be done, much of this increase in population is inevitable, simply because, owing to the spread of preventive medicine, developing countries tend to have a high proportion of children and young people in their populations, and even if these young people themselves have only small families such populations will still increase substantially.
The primary problem, clearly, is to feed this growing mass of people, and since the need for birth control is primarily related to the need to avert starvation and disease I must give some consideration to the food problem. The main facts are substantially agreed by all authorities. The first is that we do not start from scratch. We have to cater for this expanding population at a time when a large proportion of people already alive are getting too little to eat. Dr. Norman Wright, Deputy Director-General of the Food and Agriculture Organisation of the United Nations, said to the British Association in 1960:
"Even if food production did continue to keep pace with population, the present production figures are themselves related to diets which are so deficient as to lead to the undernutrition or malnutrition of a large proportion of the world's population."
It is not easy to discover accurately how large this proportion is, but it is so large that a considerable error one way or the other would make little difference.

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Dr. Sukhatme, of the Food and Agriculture Organisation, said last year that
"between one-third to one-half of the world's people suffer from under-nutrition or malnutrition."
Under-nutrition is not getting enough to eat, and malnutrition is, in addition, getting such an ill-balanced diet as to lead to disease and physical inefficiency. These are statistical calculations, but they stand for men, women and children; and one can never utter that abstract word "malnutrition" in the same way again after having visited villages and hospitals in the developing countries and seen it in terms of human misery and disease. It would be a tough assignment to raise the standard of living of those already alive without having, as we do, to feed 100 more people a minute.
Sukhatme calculates that
"should population grow according to the United Nations medium forecast the world's total food supplies would have to be doubled by 1980 and trebled by the turn of the century in order to provide a reasonably adequate level of nutrition for the peoples of the world."
What is the prospect that this can be done? Here let me quote an agricultural expert, Professor H. D. Kay:
"If the amounts of home-grown plus imported food supplies are rising at all in the underdeveloped countries, they are rising at a rate well below the net rate of population increases."
While the export of surplus food from one country to another is obviously extremely valuable, it hardly touches the essential problem. To quote Professor Kay again:
"The only practical short-to-medium range solution to the hunger problem for the majority of the underfed countries is greatly to increase human food production from their own acreage."
That means, of course, education and a change in cultural traditions as well as technical aids to agriculture and better roads, all of which take time. Professor W. A. Lewis, speaking in the same symposium, said that India will not be able to grow enough food for her own population but
"will have to import more and more food for as far ahead as we can see, and pay for it by exporting manufactures."
If that is true, India's future food supply depends upon industrialisation, which is very difficult for a country already struggling to make its food supplies catch
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up with its population. The Indian Ministry of Health has published a Report of its Health Survey and Planning Committee, which says:
"It will be seen that at the present rate of growth, at the end of 25 years the population increase would be of the order of 102 per cent. as against 13·5 per cent. increase in income. Even with a 50 per cent. reduction in rate of population growth between 1966 and 1981 the increase in income will still not catch up with the increase in population."
That, my Lords, is an outline of the world's food problem. Food production is clearly the first and most urgent need, but I cannot share the optimism of those who say that we need not bother to restrict population growth as well. Let me quote again from Professor Kay. In his view
"It is essential to combine increasing food production with a diminishing birth rate".
Let me also complete my quotation from the Report of the Indian Ministry of Health:
"The Family Planning Programme has rightly come to occupy the key position in the Five-Year Health Plans."
It is true that birth control implies other things, education and acceptability especially. But the fact that some remote and primitive regions are not yet ready for it does not mean that it is not desperately needed elsewhere, especially in the towns. In Singapore, for example, the average birth rate is 44 per 1,000, compared with 16 in the United Kingdom. As the population is one million, that means 44,000 births a year. The Government of Singapore not only gives grants to the Family Planning Association there, but it has conducted its own campaign to give the subject the maximum publicity.
But, my Lords, the population question is not solely a matter of food for the body. Unless population growth is controlled, millions of people will continue to live in physical conditions in which the full development of man's spiritual nature, and even his education, are impossible. I agree heartily with the noble Baroness when she stresses the importance of education as a factor. But how, in the housing conditions of a seething and squalid Asian city, is a child to do its homework? Why, it may be asked, should we do anything? Some political and economic reasons have already been mentioned which I shall not

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go over again, but I would mention one which particularly concerns me, and which must surely concern all of us: population conditions in Asia breed epidemics which air travel brings it to this country in 24 hours. John Donne said: "No man is an island". Nor is any country, paradoxically not even this one. Does it need smallpox to prove that
"any man's death diminishes me because I am involved in Mankinde?"
What, then, can we do? Let me begin by emphasising a point which noble Lords have already made as to what we ought not to do, and I am sure that any attempt to dictate population from outside is very rightly resented. What any country does about its population is primarily its own concern. Help is likely to be accepted only when it is asked for. But right action presupposes knowledge, knowledge in many fields, and that knowledge is still very largely lacking. Here I do not think we can separate our policy at home from our attitude to the developing Commonwealth countries. We are perhaps hardly likely to do for them what we are unwilling to do for ourselves. And surely it cannot be right that in this country the State should take no interest in birth control. Contraception has entered a phase of rapid advance. It is a subject of the greatest social and personal importance, increasingly related to physiology and medicine, and we have to depend for research upon a small private fund and the pharmaceutical industry, and to rely for the clinical testing of these new and powerful biochemical agents upon a voluntary association to which the State contributes neither guidance nor money.
I am very glad that the noble Lady raised the question about the pill, and particularly that she quoted the Lancet article. This is not the place to discuss these complicated technical questions, but there are three things I would say. The first is that all the information which the Lancet article contained was known to the Association before it expressed the view that the pill was safe to use under the conditions which it laid down. And of course, we did not take that step without obtaining the best advice we could. We have an Advisory Medical Council whose membership includes two endocrinologists and several distinguished gynæcologists, and I can
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confirm that it had the advantage of discussing the whole question with Sir Charles Dodds. The second point is this. Surely the best way to exclude long-term ill-effects is to keep a careful watch for any short-term reactions, and this is being done.
My third comment is that in this new field, where much is still unknown, the course of events has imposed on the Family Planning Association a great responsibility. Is it not time that the State shared it? Is it not time that Her Majesty's Government, in the interests equally of this country and of those abroad who look to us for guidance, actively encouraged research into human fertility, with all its biological, physiological, medical and social implications? I particularly welcome the words of the right reverend Prelate, and I share his hope that such research may be conducted on the widest possible lines. The potentialities of human science at this time are so great that it may well be that the future will hold methods of contraception which will in fact prove morally acceptable.
So I would urge the Government to hold a watching brief on the clinical tests of all contraceptives, or, better still, to sponsor such tests themselves. And is it not time that they gave a lead to the World Health Organisation, which can hardly much longer shut its eyes to the fact that population is a major factor in world health? All I ask is that Her Majesty's Government should encourage the search for knowledge, which should be available to all countries that want it; and that, surely, is the answer to any possible charges of genocide. The urgency of the problem, my Lords, is of our own making. We who are of the Western tradition have carried hygiene, preventive medicine, and curative drugs all over the world, and made the growth of population inevitable. Should we not now, in the same spirit of humanity, use all the resources of science to avert the reproach that we have freed men from disease only to let them die of hunger?
4.21 p.m.
LORD WALSTON: My Lords, I think it is particularly fortunate that the noble Lord, Lord Casey, in framing his Motion did so in such words that this debate has not been confined solely to the ques-

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tion of family planning or contraception. The actual wording, as your Lordships will remember, is:
"To ask Her Majesty's Government … what they propose to do to stimulate scientific research in the United Kingdom towards a socially acceptable solution of the problem".
That gives a very wide field to cover, and several noble Lords have taken full advantage of it; in particular, the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, with whom I found myself in very strong agreement.
It surely must be a confession of complete failure on the part of our civilisation and the Western way of life if in fact we admit that we want fewer people in this world. Setting aside all the religious aspects of the question, what is the point of having people born into this world? If a man produces more than he consumes, the world must be, materially at least, a better place. It is only if he consumes more than he produces that the world is poorer. If a man gives greater happiness than he creates unhappiness, the world must be a happier place, and therefore a better place, the more people there are in the world. So there can be no justification, surely, for our saying; "Let us have a world where there are fewer people rather than more people". We can say that only if at the same time we are saying: "We are denying, or our way of life is denying, to the people who are going to be born into this world the possibility of contributing something, whether it is material or whether it is on a somewhat higher plane".
So I think we must direct our thoughts in this problem, at any rate, as a long-term project, not towards restricting the number of people who are born but rather towards ensuring that, no matter in what part of the world they are born, they have the full potentialities and possibilities that we have in this country and, on the whole, in this Continent. That does not mean to say that we should turn our backs entirely on any form of family planning or even on any form of contraception. It is, unfortunately, true that at this stage we are out of step, and, as I understood it, that was one of the major points of the noble Earl, Lord Lytton. We have, now reached a stage where population is increasing faster than the possibilities
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to create wealth and to lead a happy life. So it may well be that as a temporary step we must do research into, and make possible for others, some form of restriction of birth. But I am very sure that what several noble Lords have said is perfectly right: that from the purely practical and political point of view, for us to act in any way which might be thought to be, or could be represented as, pushing our ideas of family limitation upon the countries of Asia while not practising it in our own country and in Europe, would be an extremely unwise thing for us to do.
By all means, let us do research; let us find out the best ways; and let us make the results of that research available to others. But, again—and I am quoting the noble Lord, Lord Beveridge—the decision must be left to the country itself as to whether or not it is going to make use of that knowledge. The worst of all things would be if, having made our investigations, having continued our research into how this family limitation should be done, we then said: "We have achieved our purpose, and we need do no more about it at all". We are only just beginning. That is only a temporary expedient, to overcome the immediate and very serious problem.
From then on, what are the things that we must do? As the noble Lord, Lord Brain, said, food is one of the fundamental requirements. Undoubtedly more food must be produced. I am not so pessimistic as some about that. The potentialities of the world as a whole are almost limitless. One has only to fly over such places as Brazil, the Amazon valley, to see hundreds of thousands of square miles of potentially fertile soil, which could grow food. The soil is there. The people are somewhere. But it cannot be done easily, and it cannot be done as we are attempting to do it at the present time. It will mean a complete re-thinking and a complete abandonment of many of our existing ideas.
There, again, I think that the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, was very right when he drew the analogy of our Victorian fathers, pointing to the poorer classes and their proliferation. The answer to that problem was not birth control. In fact, the answer was—coupled with

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education, which probably comes first—a redistribution of wealth, so that more of what was produced was spread among the people who formerly had less. We have gone a long way in this country—not far enough, but we have gone far. But when we look at the world as a whole we have scarcely started at all. Any solution that may be achieved in this matter, can come only if the rich countries of the world—and we are one of them—are prepared not only to practise voluntary charity in the world as a whole, as our Victorian parents and grandparents did and as, to some extent, we are doing now, but to submit ourselves to the international Welfare State, rather than the national Welfare State. Without that there can be no real solution to this problem.
The noble Lord, Lord Milverton, would undoubtedly say that this is just starry-eyed idealism and will get us nowhere. I am not such a disbeliever in idealism. I think it is something that we should aim at; that we should know, ourselves. But we should not "kid" ourselves into thinking that, just because we see the ideal, it will automatically arrive without any effort. We must be practical in achieving our ideals; but do not let us throw our ideals away because we are so proud of being practical men of business.
LORD MILVERTON: My Lords, I interrupt the noble Lord for a moment to point out that I understand the essence of an ideal is that it should be unattainable.
LORD WALSTON: My Lords, I will not attempt to enter into any argument with the noble Lord on that line, philosophical or otherwise, but I must say that, although I myself do not have very great expectation of achieving any of my ideals, I think they are attainable; and I think the same is true in our more corporate and social existence as a society—I hope, a civilised society.
However, to come back to the more practical position of what we can do now, and what, in the terms of the Motion moved by the noble Lord, Lord Casey, Her Majesty's Government can do now, I would suggest that there is one specific thing which could be done at the present time, and that is for Her Majesty's Government to sponsor, by making funds available, at some suitable
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place of learning in this country, something which might be called an institute of demographic research. They have such a thing at Harvard, which is doing very useful work indeed. In this country we have many individual departments doing research work into ecological, nutritional, economic and public health problems; but there is nothing which ties those things together, co-ordinates them and helps them direct the form of research which should take place, or which utilises the results of such research as has already taken place.
There are many of them, clearly, which deal with the technical agricultural problems which are involved, and much work of that kind is already going on; but they should also carry out a far more detailed and knowledgeable study than we have at the present time of systems of land ownership, share cropping, of the rôle of the moneylender in underdeveloped areas and the various other very important but detailed matters which anyone who has any knowledge at all of the underdeveloped areas to-day knows play such a very important part in proper utilisation of the soil and the proper growing of crops. That is one of the items which should be studied with far more intensity than it is at present.
There is the whole question of nutrition, not purely from the point of view of the building up of the body but from that of the effect of nutrition on the reproductive system: whether in fact an excess of carbohydrate does, as some people assert, tend to a higher reproduction rate, or whether a high protein diet leads to rather smaller families. Matters of that sort should be studied. The question of leisure in such countries as we are talking about now cannot be ignored, either. What is the effect of leisure of a cultural kind upon reproduction? I believe, and I think that most people who have had experience of such countries would agree, that, on the whole, the birth rate tends to drop the more leisure people have of a cultural kind. What the relationship is, I do not know. It may be entirely fortuitous, but it may be an important factor in helping to solve this problem.
Of course, at the basis of it all is the genuine education of all the people involved: simply learning to read and write, learning how to understand what

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possibilities and potentialities the outside world offers, and learning as well the purely technical matters of health, hygiene, agricultural techniques and all the rest of it. That, my Lords, I believe to be a small but very definite step forward that could be taken by Her Majesty's Government, if they were so minded, at the present time.
I know that it is difficult, as things are to-day; and, having listened to the debate on Government Assistance to Universities and to the Government's views on the shortage of the money we now have to spend on even our own education, I realise it may be a hopeless task to try to persuade the Government that they should make available funds for the setting up of some now institution; but if on this issue we are in any way serious, if we are in any way anxious to see our ideals become, even in small measure, a practical reality, we must make the sacrifice of a few million pounds from this great and rich country to start studies of this kind. They will not be of benefit immediately, perhaps, to ourselves, but they will be of benefit to so many people in so many parts of the world who are completely incapable, in this respect at least, of helping themselves. Although we may not as a result of this debate receive from the noble Duke an assurance that something of this sort will be done, I hope we shall at least be given the assurance that serious thought will be given to co-ordinating such research and knowledge as there is; to deciding the priorities of fresh research; and, above all, to doing ever more research on these matters.
4.37 p.m.
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: My Lords, I am sure that we are all grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Casey, for initiating a debate on a subject which affects, or could affect, so many millions of our fellow human beings. Whether or not we agree with his views—and, on the whole, his views have not been generally accepted—we must all applaud his sincerity; and I, at any rate, envy him his delivery, from which I think a good many of us in this House could draw considerable profit. I should like to endorse everything that my noble friend Lord Walston has said, and I would single out three points that he
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made simply to repeat them to the House in view of their great importance.
There was the stress he laid upon his idea of a demographic institute; his stress of an international Welfare State; and, above all, his insistence that human life is good, that a large population is better than a small one. There, I side with him absolutely. To me, a human being is someone of infinite value, and I hope that humanists can accept that along with Christians. I hope that no one will disagree with the view that it is better to have 600 million human beings somewhere rather than 300 million if the quality of the life is at any rate no worse. I hope that that, at least, can be accepted, because one or two things were said earlier which implied that this growth of population was in itself bad, and that every extra 5,000 people was a source of calamity, something to make one's flesh creep. I am afraid that the noble Lord, Lord Brain, although he may not have meant it, implied that we ought to be discouraged to hear that 5,000 children will have been born this afternoon. Personally, I am delighted to hear it, and I only hope that he has underestimated his figures.
LORD BRAIN: My Lords, may I interrupt the noble Earl? I do not feel that way at all. I think that population growth is good, provided that it does not in itself have a stultifying effect on the spiritual and cultural growth of the increased number.
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: I am glad the noble Lord puts it that way. I am afraid he gave us that calculation in a manner which made it seem that the intention was to make our flesh creep. For instance, he did not give us the figures for the enormous amount of food which will have been produced at the same time. He tended, I thought, to give us only the bad side, or what seemed the bad side. Now I realise that he did not intend to convey that impression at all.
I think it is extremely good, if I may say so, for the noble Duke, the Duke of Devonshire, to reply to this debate. It must be the first time he has ever missed the Derby. I assume that he was taken there in his cradle, and will be finally taken there, so to speak, many years after I have passed on, in his hearse. I think it is an example of his public spirit that he has been with us to-day. I

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am told that this is the first time the noble Viscount, Lord Hailsham, has ever attended the Derby, and the first time the noble Duke has not. It seems to me it needed only that in each case to produce a perfectly rounded personality, and I am glad that that result has been accomplished to-day. I think it was some years ago that Lord Randolph Churchill said that the upper classes are united with the working classes in their love of horse-racing and their love of immorality. This was altered, by the time it reached the Press, to "a love of horse-racing and a love of morality"; and it is, of course, in that latter sense that I associate the noble Duke with the utterance of Lord Randolph Churchill. At any rate, a Derby which is deprived of the services of Lester Piggott and of the Duke of Devonshire on the same day seems to me a very unsatisfactory affair. I gather that they got along without them, but it cannot have been the same thing at all.
My Lords, I am not sure why I am speaking, except that it might be misunderstood, so to speak, to be a birth control debate (or something which, heavily disguised, would be generally understood to be a birth control debate) without any utterance from someone who was last year referred to as a "noble Cardinal", which was a bit of sarcasm by the noble Lord, Lord Brabazon of Tara. I did raise the question on Monday whether it was desirable that I should speak; and I was pleased afterwards to hear somebody say that he had spoken for 35 minutes less than usual. I will try to follow the same rule to-day. I need not perhaps reaffirm the Roman Catholic attitude to artificial birth control. We do believe—not just because we are told to, but those of us who do try to think it out do believe as a result of our own cogitations—that enormous harm must result from a widespread use of contraceptives. I only touch on this in passing, but there is one side of it which I submit, in all seriousness, must cause anxiety to-day.
The question is sometimes raised whether our national morals are worse than they used to be. I do not know when they were supposed to be good, but it is sometimes suggested that they are now worse than they were. Particularly it is suggested that the morals
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of the young are worse than at some earlier time. I do not take that view at all. I do not believe that there is any evidence of that, although I am not saying that the contrary can be proved. But I think it is impossible to deny that, whereas there is some advance in our national morals, in that there is much greater concern for those in distress who do not belong to our immediate circle—and that is a great advance—on the other side, sexual morals are in many respects more lax; and in particular it must be conceded that, so far as one can possibly judge, pre-marital intercourse is much commoner than it was.
The proportion of girls who are pregnant when they are married appears to be higher than it has been in past years. I think that that must be said on the debit side, though I am not saying that, on balance, our morals as a nation, or the morals of young people, are worse. I am certainly not saying that girls are the main delinquents in this matter. If they are in "the family way" far more oftener, then it is the boys who put them there; and I think that the men must take more than half the blame. That seems to me to be a fact. I would challenge anyone to deny that the use of contraceptives has increased with pre-marital intercourse. It might of course be said that if contraceptives were 100 per cent. perfect, these particular results of pregnancy would not occur; but as they are nothing like perfect, and for other reasons, these results do occur. And I link that situation and the development of that kind of morality in far too many cases with the philosophy that regards sex as fun, without any responsibilities. It is a philosophy that treats sex as something that is purely a matter of enjoyment, without dedication or community of ideal. But I say that in passing: the Roman Catholic attitude to artificial birth control is well known.
I was deeply struck, if I may say so with respect, not only by the speech of the right reverend Prelate the Lord Bishop of London but also by the spirit in which he showed his clear desire to say no word that could be painful to any Christian Communion, and, at the same time, to move the subject forward. When we had a debate last year—and this is the only point from my own

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remarks which I wish to quote—I mentioned something which had been said by the late Pope, where he pointed out that regulating births is compatible with God's law. In other words, he pointed out that planning through the regulation of births, as distinct from planning through the use of artificial birth control, is acceptable to Roman Catholics. Unless I am much mistaken, the right reverend Prelate, and other speakers, were bearing that position in mind when they were talking about the kind of research that could be socially acceptable; and possibly when the noble Lord, Lord Casey, replies, he may find it possible to move a little in that direction himself. I hope that that was also, perhaps, in the mind of the noble Lord, Lord Brain.
I do not want to say more; but I myself should be ready, simply as an individual Roman Catholic not at all expert in these technicalities, to suppose that many of us in my Communion have not taken sufficient interest in the kind of research which would be acceptable from our point of view; and, if that is so, I think we must show greater interest in the future. Naturally, that leaves the matter vague. How could I do otherwise? I think the noble Lord, Lord Brain, used the expression "research which would be generally acceptable"; but, at any rate, if lines of research can be mapped out which are acceptable to all the great Christian Communions, then, of course, that would be an advantage. But I do not want to say anything which would seem to whittle down the well-known view of my own Church about artificial birth control.
Now, to me, there were two very striking speeches, among others, which left a big imprint on my own mind, apart from those I have already mentioned. One was delivered by the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, from whom we hear all too seldom. He comes and speaks without any notes, and sets us all an example. I do not know why he does not come oftener, except that he seems to travel the wild places of the world, and perhaps is not close at hand. But we certainly all enjoyed his speech enormously. My noble friend Lady Summerskill hit very hard in a way which I hope made a great impact, as
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I believe it did, without causing personal pain to the noble Lord, Lord Casey. I hope he will feel influenced by what she said, because in my opinion she demolished a great deal of what I thought was in his mind; though it may be that she demolished something that was not in his mind, or, if it was in his mind, it had, so to speak, disappeared since last year. If that is so, there again we are all moving forward together.
I recall that, speaking last year on the subject of food and population, the noble Viscount, Lord Hailsham, who seemed, I think, dispassionate, and certainly had access to greater information than I myself had, or most of us had, took a rather definite stand on the general comparison. I hope the noble Lord, Lord Casey, will not mind my reminding him of what the noble Viscount said; it is not a personal point. Lord Hailsham said OFFICIAL REPORT, Vol. 232, col. 1126]:
"… contrary to what the noble Lord, Lord Casey, said but as correctly stated by the noble Earl, Lord Longford, the best view appears to be that food production is also increasing, and increasing somewhat faster than the population of the world."
This afternoon the noble Lord, Lord Casey, did not argue the contrary. So that is the general position: that food production as a whole is increasing faster.
But, of course, we are all well aware that a lot of it is not in the places where it could be most valuable, and many of us would feel that Mr. Ritchie Calder, who is himself a supporter of birth control, has summed it up quite fairly. Because in his recent book, The Commonsense about a Starving World, he says that the problem of distribution defeats the present system; and he indicts the world for its failure to distribute the food which exists, and for its failure to produce much more. Mr. Ritchie Calder quotes United Nations authorities (I am not going to do much quoting because that can be so very selective) and says:
"The existing land resources with the application of the best existing methods could feed at least 16,000 million people"
that would be eventually—
"against our 3,000 million in the world to-day".
But the writer points out that the prospect of having a quarter of that total

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by 1980 is frightening. I quote 16,000 million only to show that, however far we look ahead, someone like Mr. Calder, who is extremely keen on birth control, sets no practical limit to the supply of food that could be forthcoming. But he says—and I think the thought is common to all of us—that we have the tremendous duty of increasing the existing food supply of the world, either by greater efficiency in the use of existing methods or by the development of new ones. As I say, I suppose that we are all at one in that great objective.
No one seems to have challenged the statement of the noble Baroness (if I may say so, from his demeanour, the noble Lord, Lord Casey, is not likely to challenge it when he replies), that it is still a completely open question whether this oral pill will do grave harm or not. We do not know.
LORD CASEY: My Lords, I did not advocate the oral pill.
LORD BRAIN: My Lords, to put it fairly, there is no evidence at the moment, and we cannot foresee the unforeseeable; but the pill has been used for six years without any discoverable ill-effects.
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: As the noble Baroness said, the Lancet has offered the opinion that it will be 20 years before it will be safe for use. On the strength of these statements, I question whether there is a single noble Lord who would wish his wife to use it. That seems, from this afternoon's debate, to be the accepted position. It would be clearly monstrous to organise research and to use Indians as guinea pigs, as I gather they have been used in producing this pill. The noble Lord shakes his head, but the noble Baroness says that they have been used, and I say that it would be monstrous to continue using people for such experiments whether they are Indians or anybody else. Obviously, there are going to be great difficulties in the researches involved. I do not want to end on that note, however. We seem to have retreated from the idea that there is some easy solution in the oral pill. I think sthat every noble Lord must be conscious of a guilty feeling when these figures are brought out. We must ask ourselves how it would look from outside and how it would look
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above, with all this food and the tremendous possibility of increasing it, yet with so many people near the starvation line.
If I end on a rather sombre note, it will not do us any harm, if it braces us and strengthens us for the task ahead. I do not think that the noble Lord, Lord Casey, has been pointing in the right direction. But I hope that everybody who cares for the future of the world will agree that socially acceptable research, research acceptable on moral grounds to the great majority of the civilised world, is something which should continue. I do not think that the noble Lord has had much support this afternoon, but the fact that he has enabled us to offer our views may be welcome to him, and perhaps next year his progress towards us will be more rapid than it has been in the twelve months that have elapsed.
4.55 p.m.
LORD KILLEARN: My Lords, before the noble Duke replies, I should like to address a few words to your Lordships, not about pills or "'guinea pigs" but about wars. I believe that the noble Lord, Lord Casey, has put his finger here on a problem of vital world importance. I had the experience of service at home and abroad which goes back a long way, and I can remember the war in the Mediterranean between the Turks and the Italians, which was provoked by over-population. Later on I was in the Far East, where, it so happens, most of my service was passed, when Japan annexed Korea. That basically was again a question of over-population. I was then quite a young Secretary at the Embassy at Tokyo, and I remember saying to my Japanese friends, of whom there were and still are, many: "You've been and gone and done it. You used to be an island Power, just as we are. Now you have deliberately expanded on to the Continent and you are going to be a Continental Power with all the results."
That is all past and gone long ago, but the problem remains; and throughout the years this question of overpopulation has been almost a nightmare to me, especially in the Far East. I remember talking to the late Lord Reading, our excellent and beloved friend, when he was going to an International Conference at Bageo. I told him: "It is

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high time somebody of your calibre got up and talked a little about this ever-threatening danger of over-population". I believe that he did. Look at Japan now. It is at the bursting point. What are we to do? I suppose that industrialisation is one answer; otherwise, expansion. I do not profess to know the answer to this problem of the growth of population in these countries which (if I may use the word) breed very rapidly.
There has been a great deal of talk this afternoon, interesting and illuminating, about all sorts of things. But to my mind we come back to the words used by the noble Lord in his Motion:
"To ask Her Majesty's Government if they have considered the consequences of the present rate of population growth in Asia, and in Commonwealth countries in Asia in particular …"
It so happens that I spent about half of my career in the Far East and became labelled as a "Far Eastern Expert". Heaven forbid that I should be considered on anything. But as a Far Eastern expert—I ask you! But the reason I have risen to speak now is that I have seen this working in the nature of an explosion which comes automatically. The population in Japan is over-spilling, in spite of all the things they do. Their surplus cannot go to Canada or Australia, because of the White policy there; and the people in Singapore do not like them. I do not know what the answer it. No doubt there is birth control, but if you can succeed in putting birth control over in Japan, God bless you. I should be surprised.
My Lords, I do not believe that the public in this country attach a fraction of the importance they ought to do to the Far East. Their thoughts are on Berlin, and never on what is going on at the other end of the world. Believe me, it is far bigger than what is going on in Europe. It does not follow that the Russians are the people to be afraid of, in the near or in the ultimate future. However, that is as may be. I should like to join with other noble Lords in expressing my gratitude to the noble Lord, Lord Casey, for raising this question of first-class importance. I am sure that the whole House owes him a debt of gratitude for doing so.
5.0 p.m.
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR COMMONWEALTH RELATIONS (THE,lb/> DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE): My Lords, I rise to reply to this debate with considerable diffidence, because I am conscious that I have very limited qualifications for answering many of the problems that have been raised. I should like to say at once how much I appreciate the generous tribute paid to me by the noble Earl, Lord Longford. While I am afraid that my absence from the Derby will be noted only from your Lordships' House, it will no doubt be a very famous Derby, in that during the course of it the race was deprived of six of the contestants; and I am sure that in the future more will be heard of this Derby than my absence from it. I should like to say, also, at the outset how pleased we were to see the noble Lord, Lord Beveridge, back again, and to have a contribution from him to the debate.
I join With other noble Lords and noble Ladies who have taken part in this debate in saying a warm word of thanks to the noble Lord, Lord Casey, for introducing the Motion. I can assure him that any possible regret on my part at missing the horse race to-day has been more than adequately compensated for by listening to his speech, and, indeed, those of other noble Lords. I have not had very great experience of your Lordships' House, but I consider the debate this afternoon to be one of the highest-level debates to which it has been my privilege and good fortune to listen.
The noble Lord, Lord Casey, gave us a full and thoughtful review of the problem; and, if I may say so with respect to him, it was very much in keeping with his contribution to the similar debate which was held in your Lordships' House about a year ago. The first part of the noble Lord's Motion asks whether Her Majesty's Government have considered the consequences of the present rate of population growth in Asia, and particularly in the Commonwealth countries of Asia. In answer to this, I can tell the noble Lord that Her Majesty's Government are well aware of the tremendous increase in the population of Asian countries, and naturally note, in particular, the increase in

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Commonwealth Asian countries; and we are acutely conscious of the problems that these increases pose.
As the noble Lord pointed out in his speech, more than half of the population of the world—that is, 1,600 million out of about 3,000 million—live in Asia; and the population in this important part of the world (and I join with the noble Lord, Lord Killearn, when he draws attention to the importance of this part of the world) is at present increasing at the rate of about 1·7 per cent. every year. I am told that if the current trends in fertility and mortality rates continue, the rate of increase of the population in Asia will probably rise to about 23 per cent. within the next 20 years or so. The demographers would, therefore, seem to be of the view that the rate of increase will remain fairly constant at that level for some years thereafter.
As anyone who has studied the subject will know, population trends are difficult to predict, even in this country, where more detailed and accurate statistics are available than in most of the countries of Asia. But even if the assumptions I have mentioned are not falsified by events, it has been estimated that by 1980 some 2,300 million people, out of an estimated world population of about 4,200 million, will live in Asia. By the end of the century it is thought that the estimated world population will be over 6,000 million, of whom some 3,700 million will be Asians. If, as the noble Lord, Lord Casey, has told us, leaders of Asian opinion, such as Mr. Nehru and President Ayub Khan, are concerned at the over-population in the Asian countries to-day, there is real cause for dismay at the thought that there will be two and a half times as many mouths to feed and people for whom employment must be found in 40 years' time. I must confess that I find it disturbing that, despite the enormous sums of money devoted to agricultural development and improvement in Asia since the war, there has not been a larger increase in the level of food production.
If I may go back a short while in time, during the war years the production of food per head of the population in fact fell by about 15 per cent., and it did not begin to recover until some years after the end of the war. The pre-war
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figure of agricultural production per head, depressed as it was by the massive increase in population during the period, was, in fact, not reached until a year or two ago. However, it is encouraging that actual supplies of food per head are beginning to show a small increase every year, as new land is brought under cultivation and various means of improving the yields from existing lands in the course of development programmes come into effect.
I suggest, with respect, that the ways in which the problem of rapidly rising populations can be solved should not merely be negative ones, such as contraception, although, of course, I fully admit that this has a most important part to play. Here I find myself very much in agreement with what noble Lords have said in all parts of the House. I endorse what the noble Lord, Lord Brain, had to say on the matter of the great need to increase food production; and coming from a man of his great distinction, it was most encouraging to me, and to the Government, to hear our view endorsed from an outside source. I also found myself in agreement with what the noble Lord, Lord Walston, had to say on this aspect of the problem, and, indeed, with my noble friend Lord Milverton and the right reverend Prelate the Lord Bishop of London, who said they wished the problem to be looked at in its full, wide sense. I am sure that, if nothing else has come out of this debate (and, in my view, much else has), we are all aware that we cannot take the question of rising population and of contraception in its narrowest field, but must look at it in the widest possible framework, so that all possibilities, both positive and negative, can be applied to meet it. As many noble Lords have said, there are positive ways of doing this, and, of course, the increase of food production is one. Here I should like to congratulate the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, on a magnificent speech, one that was a real joy to listen to.
I feel that the countries of Asia, in wrestling with these gigantic problems which face them, might take comfort from what happened in agriculture in this country during the war years. My noble friend the Leader of the House made an allusion to this in last year's debate, when he pointed out that we doubled our food in about seven years

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from 1939. He went on to say that the striking thing about that increase in food production was that it was not achieved by the sudden use of startling new processes, but by applying well-known and longstanding practices of good husbandry.
While the problem to which the noble Lord, Lord Casey, refers, must primarily be one for the countries concerned to tackle—as, indeed, they are doing—I think we should all be well advised to bear in mind that, no matter what steps are taken by way of educating the peoples of Asia in the practice of birth regulation, both the Governments of the countries concerned and, indeed, we of the more well-developed countries (and here I endorse what several noble Lords have said) have a real duty to do everything possible to increase the food supplies of those countries. We have, of course, done much in the past. The noble Earl, Loud Lytton, if I remember rightly, went so far as to say that we should cut our standard of living to about half, in order to provide the necessary assistance to these less fortunate peoples. I cannot pretend that I think it would be feasible to go as far as that, but certainly we are aware of our responsibilities; and, as I hope to show now, we have a proud record in this field.
Since the inception of the Colombo Plan in 1950, the Governments of the donor countries contributing to the Plan have made available to member countries in South and South-East Asia assistance in various forms to the value of £3,600 million. This total includes aid through technical assistance, loans and grants, the provision of agricultural commodities and the supply of equipment. Assistance within the framework of the Colombo Plan is still running at the rate of approximately £500 million a year.
Since the inception of the Plan the total of our own Governmental commitments has been about £300 million, much of which has gone directly or indirectly towards increasing the food supplies of the countries concerned. So we have made a contribution. Noble Lords may say it is not enough, but still we have made a very considerable contribution in this way.
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The noble Earl, Lord Lytton, raised the point of the food surpluses in the world. I think the noble Earl, Lord Longford, also made references to them; certainly one or two other noble Lords have done so. I should like, if I may—I hope I shall not weary the House—to repeat what my noble friend the Leader of the House said on this subject last year, because it is still relevant. He had this to say OFFICIAL REPORT, Vol. 232, col. 1127]:
"One solution that has been suggested is the distribution to scarcity areas of the grain surpluses at present being produced in the more developed countries. During the past decade these have amounted to over 125 million tons, enough, in theory, to supply the full calorie needs of 45 million people for a year. Some such movements of grain surpluses do in fact take place, but there are tremendous difficulties in achieving its widespread distribution. Moreover, once the present surpluses have been distributed, only an annual surplus of 10 million tons will be available for disposal—which is by no means sufficient to enable the distribution of surplus grains to affect appreciably the calorie levels. And to alleviate malnutrition, what are required are protein-rich foods, not cereals—though grain surpluses have proved to be an invaluable aid in the alleviation of famines and severe food shortages in particular areas."
I am not saying that we must explore every avenue in this field, but I give that quotation merely to set that particular solution in perspective.
The facts of the population situation in Asia are by now, I think, fairly widely known in this country. But the terms of the noble Lord's Motion perhaps carry the implication that Her Majesty's Government in this country has some responsibility for this situation. It is unnecessary for me to remind this House that the causes of over-population in any country are deeply rooted in economic and social conditions, involving religious and ethical considerations which can be influenced—and that often slowly and with great difficulty—only by the movement of opinion within the countries concerned. I most warmly agree with those noble Lords who have said that it would be impertinent for us to comment on many of these questions. It is for those countries themselves to solve it, and I cannot emphasise too strongly how much I endorse that point of view. But I can perhaps say that it is encouraging to note the increasing attention now being paid by the

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Asian countries themselves and by international organisations to population problems in their own area.
I understand that the Economic Commission for Asia and the Far East, under the ægis of the United Nations, which is closely concerned with Asian development, is making plans for an Asian Population Conference which will study the question of balancing population growth against resources. As an earnest of Her Majesty's Government's interest and concern in this problem, your Lordships may be aware that we expect to support the inscription on the Agenda of the next Session of the General Assembly of the United Nations of the item proposed by Denmark and Sweden on population growth and economic development.
As the noble Lord, Lord Casey, has said, both the development plans of the Government of India and that of Pakistan make substantial provision for family planning. The Government of Pakistan's Second Five-Year Plan, recognising that it is essential that family planning should receive high priority, provides a sum of nearly £2½ million for family planning purposes, including research on reproductive behaviour, on factors which motivate parents to have large or small families, and on the acceptablility and effectiveness of different methods of birth limitation. The Government of India's Third Five-Year Plan makes provision for 25 crores of rupees—which I understand is some £17 million—for similar purposes. I am sure that the House will agree that these are very substantial sums for even such large countries as these to spend on such purposes.
This afternoon's Motion goes on to ask what the British Government propose to do to stimulate scientific research in this country. I say the next part of what I have to say with even greater diffidence than the rest, because I am speaking here before experts about subjects on which I am a layman, so I beg your Lordships' forgiveness. I should like to say a word about the true implication of the word "research". To find a cure for some particular ill, one needs more than money. It is first necessary for those qualified to know to discover evidence of a line of inquiry, which it would seem fruitful to pursue, in order to prevent that particular ill.
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Once a lead of this sort is discovered, and provided there is a man or the men qualified to pursue that lead, then—and only then—does the need for money for that particular purpose arise.
The noble Lord, Lord Casey, asked what steps Her Majesty's Government propose to take to stimulate research. Scientific research into the various methods of contraception cannot be undertaken in isolation from other research work. For example, I understand that it is fairly closely bound up with research work into the whole field of infertility, and I further understand there is a close connection with certain fields of cancer research. In both these two fields, infertility and cancer, a vast amount of research work is being carried out, financed both by Government funds and the private foundations which there are in this country. I am glad the noble Lord saw fit to pay a tribute to these private foundations, which provide such very large sums for research work.
I think it fair to say that there is no indication that there would be any shortage of money for particular lines of research into promising ideas that may suggest themselves; the money would be found somehow. So I can assure the noble Lord that as a byproduct of the work in these two fields alone, much information is coming forward on the subject of contraception, and this information is made public and is therefore available to independent scientists concerned with the problem. As a Commonwealth Minister, I am very happy to say that there is very close co-operation between scientists in this country and scientists in India and elsewhere in Asia in these particular fields.
A great deal of work on the physiology of reproduction is being undertaken in university departments and by the Medical and Agricultural Research Councils, in addition to a certain amount of research directly aimed at the control of conception which is being carried out by industrial enterprises. This fundamental research on the factors affecting human fertility and infertility, which is also in many respects applicable in conditions in countries other than Great Britain, may well in the end provide the vital clues to the solution of the problem of contraception.

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I was at this stage in my speech going to make some reference to the pill mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Casey, but having heard what the noble Baroness, Lady Summerskill, had to say, it would be impertinent of me to add anything to that and also to what was said by the noble Lord, Lord Brain. If I may say so to the noble Lady, with all respect, everyone here who listened to what she had to say must have been forcibly struck, not only with her immense erudition and knowledge of this subject and the extremely clear way in which she put it, but also with the burning conviction which carried her when she was speaking. It was a very memorable moment during this afternoon's debate.
As I have said, although the researches that I have mentioned are not, for obvious reasons, related to the conditions of Asia, where, in my Government's view, the work can best be carried out in hospitals and research institutions in the countries concerned, the Government will always be ready to accede to requests for help from Governments under the Colombo Plan for technical assistance from this country. Unless and until we receive such requests for collaboration with the work which is being done on this question in the Asian countries themselves, we think that our main contribution to this great problem of over-population is to continue to spend as much as we can afford on the programme of capital aid and technical assistance on which we are already engaged and to which I have alluded. To do more than that would be, to return to what other speakers have said, really impertinent to the countries concerned. The programmes of aid which we do provide leave it to the Governments concerned to judge how the help we give can best be applied to overcome the poverty and ignorance which, alas, as we all know too well, far too often accompanies an excessively high birthrate.
I was very much interested by the suggestion of the noble Lord, Lord Walston, for the setting up of an institution of demographic research. I can, of course, give no possible undertaking beyond saying that I will bring the suggestion to the notice of my noble friend, Lord Hailsham. It interests me per-
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sonally very much because, as Chairman of the Overseas Migration Board, I have touched on the fringe of the problems of demography and I find it increasingly of absorbing interest. I know that the noble Lord's suggestion will be very much welcomed by members of the Board, and if the noble Lord wishes I will bring it to their notice as well as to that of my noble friend.
I have talked for long enough, and I hope your Lordships will forgive me if I do not go into any details of the pros and cons of the various methods of contraception, for the simple reason that I simply am not qualified to do so. Furthermore, were I to do so, I would not try to influence any individual or any country to alter their views on the subject of contraception. It is a matter which is highly personal, likely to be controversial, and must be one that individual peoples and countries settle for themselves. Nevertheless, having said that, I would say this to the noble Lord, Lord Casey. I have no doubt that there is great value in to-day's debate, as there was indeed in the debate we had a year ago, and the value is that it draws attention to a very serious problem and one for which there can be no immediate solution, as indeed the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, said. I give the noble Lord an assurance that the Government are aware that this is a world-wide problem which, together with the Governments of other countries, they must play their part in helping to solve.
5.25 p.m.
LORD CASEY: My Lords, I thank the noble Duke for the courtesy of his reply and for the great deal of work that he has obviously put into consideration of my Motion and in listening to this long debate. But I must admit to a certain disappointment at the noble Duke's reflection of the views of Her Majesty's Government on this matter. Perhaps I may correct him in one matter that he evidently suspected: that is, that I made the point that there was some degree of responsibility on the part of Her Majesty's Government. I do not think that at all, taking "responsibility" in its normally accepted meaning. There is a moral responsibility, I certainly believe; that is, an international responsibility of a great country towards countries that are very much poorer, both in

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money and also, particularly, in their ability to carry out scientific research. I think there is a responsibility there, but I can only interpret what the noble Duke has been good enough to say as meaning, in effect, that this country is proposing to leave the burden of research in this matter to the United States. In effect, I think that is so. A very great deal more research is going on in the United States in the relevant field than in this country, although what is going on in the United Kingdom is quite considerable.
Perhaps I may be allowed to say this without extending this debate beyond a very few moments more: that I was surprised—and perhaps it is my own fault again—that so many noble Lords in effect took me to task for believing that in the terms of my Motion I was attempting to push the Government into contact with Asian Governments on something which was their own business, and so trying to force something on them that they might resent. I thought, perhaps wrongly, that in what I had said in moving this Motion I had made it clear—at least, I hoped I had done so—that the Governments both of India and of Pakistan have specifically, time and time again, made requests to the United States of America, if not to this country—I happen to be aware of many of the requests—and they have been made by the highest people in the Governments of those two countries.
I quote—and this will take only one moment—what was said not long ago by the present Indian Ambassador to the United States. This a cut-down of what he said:
"There are three specific kinds of assistance of which India is desperately in need."—
He was talking to the American people.—
"The sharing of experiences"—
as he called it—
"in population control by the advanced countries; the very substantial increase in research in the United States for a simple and inexpensive contraception method; thirdly, technical aid, especially of manufacturing facilities for family planning supplies."
I pick that out as only one of a number of most pointed requests that have been made to the Government and people of the United States for scientific aid in producing and evolving an improved contraceptive suitable for Indian conditions.
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I hope that after very nearly a generation in public life I have not to be told that one country cannot interfere in the domestic affairs of another. That knowledge is child's play, as anybody with any knowledge of international affairs knows. But if it had been interference, India and Pakistan would never have made their views and requirements known in almost desperate terms to the United States and, I should have thought, also to this country.
I should like to canvass a number of other things said in this debate but I cannot continue for more than a few moments. I could follow the noble Earl, Lord Longford, on the subject of food in Asia, on which clearly, he and I completely disagree. And I think the noble Baroness, Lady Summerskill, really took certain liberties with what I said in trying to pin the word "oral" contraceptive on to me, when I never used the word at all in respect of contraceptives which might be used in India. I used the words "Conovid" and "Enovid", but never in anything that I said this year did I mention or recommend the use of oral contraception, although I would not eliminate it from the possibilities. If I may say so, the noble Lady replied to the speech I made twelve months ago. I think if I go further than that I shall get rather deeper than I want. I should like to join with the noble Duke in thanking all noble Lords who have taken part in this, to me, very interesting debate, which I agree has had some usefulness in ventilating this subject; and, my Lords, I beg leave to withdraw my Motion for Papers.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.
MAIDSTONE CORPORATION (TROLLEY VEHICLES) PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL
PIER AND HARBOUR PROVISIONAL ORDER (GREAT YARMOUTH NEW BRITANNIA PIER) BILL
PIER AND HARBOUR PROVISIONAL ORDER (GREAT YARMOUTH PORT AND HAVEN) BILL
Brought from the Commons; read 1a, and referred to the Examiners.

PENSIONS OF FORMER COLONIAL SERVICE OFFICERS
5.30 p.m.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL rose THE EARL OF LISTOWEL rose to move to resolve, That this House urges Her Majesty's Government to increase the basic rate of pensions paid to former Colonial Service officers and their dependants, and to publish the White Paper requested in this House on February 20 last (Hansard, col. 695). The noble Earl said: My Lords, time is getting on, and I shall be as short as possible. Moreover, a lot of the ground was covered in an earlier debate, and several of the speakers who will follow me this afternoon—including, I hope, two ex-Secretaries of State, and two former Colonial Governors—are far better qualified than I am to put the case for these pensioners. Anything I leave unsaid will, I am sure, be said by them.
When your Lordships discussed this subject on February 20, on a Motion of my noble friend Lord Ogmore (who has written me a letter saying that he is very sorry that he cannot be present to-day, and asking me to apologise for him to the House), every speaker during that debate, on both sides of the House, supported my noble friend's request to the Government for pension increases for retired Colonial Service officers and their dependants. My noble friend Lord Ogmore withdrew his Motion on the undertaking given by the noble Lord, Lord Hastings, that he would draw the attention of his ministerial colleague to the strong feelings expressed by the House.
The noble Lord also told us that there would be a further meeting in the near future between Ministers and representatives of the Overseas Service Officers' Association. I understand that that meeting has now taken place and that the Association is still far from satisfied. In the same debate I asked for the publication of a White Paper, and the noble Lord, Lord Hastings, said he would look into that. As three months have passed since those requests were made, and the Government have been given plenty of time for further consideration, I think your Lordships will agree that the moment has come when
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we should ask for the result of their cogitations.
Let me first deal with the question of the White Paper, because that is the less important of the two requests that I am putting to the Government. What is the case for a White Paper? This question of pension increases for Colonial Service officers and their dependants is a matter that many of us in both Houses, as the noble Lord opposite will already be aware, think touches the honour of our country and our Government. The Government deny this. They say that it concerns other Governments in the Colonies and in the Commonwealth. Anyway, this is a matter that has aroused so much Parliamentary interest that there have been two debates in another place during this Session, and we are now embarking on the second debate in your Lordships' House. Surely the least the Government can do, in view of this widespread interest and deep concern, is to give Parliament and the public the relevant facts and to accompany those with a statement of policy.
I should like those facts to include (and this would be the substance of the White Paper for which I am asking) some reference to the number of retired Colonial Service Officers and their dependants who are receiving smaller increases in their basic pension than United Kingdom Civil Service officers, and the annual cost at the present time of "topping up" those pensions to the United Kingdom level. Secondly, there should be sufficient background material to explain the present position of Colonial Service officers; and thirdly, some account of our arrangements with India, Pakistan and Burma—particularly Pakistan and Burma, because I think they furnish a very close parallel. These facts, I should have thought, are indispensable to anyone who wants to judge the merits of this case.
I am not asking for any information not already known to the Government and in their possession. I am not asking for anything of a secret or confidential nature. It is therefore quite irrelevant, if I may say so, for the Government to answer that they cannot get information about their own pension schemes from Commonwealth Governments. I repeat: I am not asking for any information the Government have not already got.

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If the Government tell us that it is contrary to usual practice to publish White Papers about matters that are the responsibility of other Governments, my reply is that it is quite manifestly prejudging the issue. Our whole contention is that this matter is within the competence of Her Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom. If the Government accept this afternoon my request for a pension increase, I shall, of course, withdraw my request for a White Paper. But if the Government refuse this request, there will be an even stronger case for the earliest possible publication of a White Paper setting out the facts and the Government case. All Members of Parliament, and others, should be in a position to judge for themselves; and that is all I am asking for.
Let me now come to the problem of the elderly Colonial Service officers and their widows, who are now living on pensions based on pre-war salaries which have not been increased, like those of United Kingdom officers, to keep up with the rising cost of living in this country since the war. I should like to remind the House that their number is small, though in many cases there is hardship, even distress, and it would cost the Government very little to bring these pensions up to the United Kingdom level. Perhaps I might be permitted to give the House these few essential figures about the number of people concerned and the cost of paying these increases. There are 2.830 retired colonial servants getting less than the United Kingdom rates of increases. The cost of supplementary pensions for these persons would be £176,400 per annum. To this number of retired colonial servants should be added the 2,300 widows of Colonial Service officials, and they would require another £110,000 to bring their pensions into line. Thus we are concerned with 5,130 persons who, directly or indirectly, have rendered outstanding service to their country overseas and who need £286,400 per annum to bring them into line in their retirement with their fellow civil servants who have spent their lives in Government service in Whitehall. I am told that these Colonial Service officers are dying at the rate of about one a day, so that this is a rapidly diminishing figure.
I think the simple issue before the House is: Who should pay these pensions? Are they the responsibility, as the Government contend, of the colonial and former colonial territories in which these pensioners were employed, or are they the responsibility of Her Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom, as the employer of the Colonial Service? One thing is perfectly clear—and noble Lords opposite will agree: this is not a matter of legal responsibility; it is a matter of moral responsibility. None of these officers was serving under a contract with a colonial or ex-colonial Government which stipulated that they should receive increases in their basic pension.
In the case of the independent Commonwealth Governments, Her Majesty's Government negotiated a Public Officers' Agreement on their behalf before the transfer of power. The standard clause in these agreements about pension rights deals with basic pensions payable before or after independence, not with increases made in the United Kingdom which would be paid to supplement these basic pensions. I am not going to quote the words, but there is a standard clause to that effect, and I am sure the noble Lord opposite will agree with me that it is therefore as clear as daylight that independent Commonwealth countries have no legal obligation for the payment of pension increases. Nor is there any reference to the payment of pension increases in the White Paper which was published in 1936 on the Reorganisation of the Colonial Service. The paragraph dealing with pensions in this publication refers only to the basic pension of Colonial Service officers. It does not put any legal responsibility on Her Majesty's Government for the payment of these increases.
The whole issue is therefore one of moral responsibility: who ought to pay? I have one suggestion to make to the Government, and I hope that it will receive the noble Lord's consideration. In view of the conflict of opinion about where the responsibility should lie, is it not highly desirable that in future Colonial Service officers and their dependants should have a legal right to pension increases made in the United Kingdom, as well as a legal right to their basic pension? Will Her Majesty's

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Government therefore include a provision to secure pension increases in any agreements they make in the future with Colonial Governments before they reach independence? I need not remind your Lordships that Jamaica will be independent in August, Uganda in October; and negotiations are now in progress about Trinidad. Surely in all these cases, and in many others that will come up in the next few years, a provision of this kind should be included. Let me say, in passing, that none of these countries is likely to be able to pay such increases out of their own revenue, and the legal right would be meaningless unless Her Majesty's Government were prepared to lend the money or to provide it by way of grant.
May I now return to the main question before the House? During our debate in February two former Secretaries of State, both of whom are here this afternoon, expressed in the strongest terms their view that the Secretary of State remained responsible for the Colonial Service officers from enrolment to death, even if they had been employed during part of their service by independent Commonwealth Governments. Indeed, there was not a single speaker, apart from the Government spokesman, who expressed a contrary view. The authority of these two noble Lords is buttressed by the terms of the 1954 White Paper on the Reorganisation of the Colonial Service. This White Paper makes it absolutely clear that these officers continue in the employment of Her Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom, as members of the Colonial Service, and are still liable to posting by the Secretary of State after they have stayed on in the public service of a successor Government.
Because these words seem to be the basis of the claim that the Secretary of State is responsible, I should like to quote just a couple of sentences from this White Paper. Paragraph 6 says:
"Should the territory in whose public service they"—
that is to say, Colonial Service officers—
"are employed attain self-government, these officers are entitled to expect that the following conditions will be observed."
Conditions (1) and (2) are irrelevant. It is the third condition to Which I wish to draw attention—namely:
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"They shall continue to be regarded by Her Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom as members of Her Majesty's Service and as such to be eligible for consideration for transfer or promotion to any posts which the Secretary of State may be requested to fill in other territories."
That is to say, after they have gone to serve in an independent Commonwealth Government they can still be posted by the Secretary of State, and his all-over responsibility for their welfare and conditions of service remains paramount.
The other argument used by the noble Lord opposite, and by the Government, against assuming financial responsibility for these increases seems to me to be invalidated by the fact that they have, in fact, been paid these increases in the case of Pakistan and Burma, without any of the disastrous consequences to other Governments which have been so freely predicted by the noble Lord opposite. I am not clear about the agreement with India to take over responsibility for their pensioners. I am not clear whether this includes pension increases as well as the basic pension. I am absolutely clear that in the case of Pakistan and Burma we top up the basic pension, while these countries pay the basic pension out of their own revenue. This is surely the best possible precedent for doing for Colonial Service pensioners what we have already done for Indian Civil Service pensioners who retired from Burma and Pakistan.
I remember particularly clearly what happened in Burma, because I was Secretary of State at the time Burma became independent, and I negotiated the Treaty which laid down the terms of pensions for retiring officers. We undertook to pay the basic pensions, but there was no mention at all of any increase on that pension. We did not undertake in the Treaty to pay any pension increase, because we said that we could not discriminate between the members of a unified service, in this case the Indian Civil Service. These were the reasons given by the Government—I am quoting the Government's own reasons. We took over the payment of these increases out of United Kingdom funds.
This seems an exact parallel to the position of the Colonial Service. But wherever the moral responsibility for supplementing a basic pension may lie, the fact is that it is quite useless for

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Her Majesty's Government to go on pressing independent Commonwealth Governments for payment. I hope that Her Majesty's Government will ultimately realise that it is simply a waste of time; that they are not doing any good. They cannot really expect anybody who knows the circumstances to coerce these Governments, as we can a Colonial Government, because with many of the Colonial Governments Her Majesty's Government are ultimately in control. That is why the Colonial Governments have paid up magnificently.
In the case of the other Governments, they are unable, or unwilling, to meet this claim. We must appreciate their real difficulty. How can they increase pension payments to expatriate officers without increasing their payments to their own officers? Moreover, how can they justify to their own public increasing taxation in order to compensate for inflation here? We are thinking of countries where the annual income of the average inhabitants is something like £35 a year. In fact none of these Commonwealth Governments has passed legislation to cover pension increases made in the United Kingdom since they became independent. What increases have been given, as the noble Lord pointed out last time, have been based on agreements made before independence. So I think we can conclude that if Her Majesty's Government cannot, or will not, find the money, whether directly or in any other way, no one will pay.
While we cannot, of course, compromise about the principle of Her Majesty's Government's responsibility, on the other hand there is plenty of room for compromise about the priority given to the various claimants, and also about the method of providing the money required to make these payments. I hope that the Government will at least say that they will give the highest priority to the pensioners who have retired longest and to widows living on a prewar pension. The Government might start by drawing the line somewhere in the 'fifties, and say that they will pay all the people concerned pension increases given before that date. That would be one form of compromise, and it would take in the hardest cases.
Again, there is plenty of room for compromise in the method of payment,
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not necessarily by direct cash payment to the persons concerned. In order to uphold their respect for principle, the Government might very well make a loan to an overseas Government to meet this obligation, or make a grant in aid, or deduct the money from financial aid. In Tanganyika and Uganda, pensions have been paid mainly by loan provided by Her Majesty's Government.
These are all methods of payment. We are not insisting on any particular method. We should welcome any compromise which would meet the claims of the people who are hardest hit. But we ask for justice to be done and to be started without delay. I beg to move.
Moved to resolve, That this House urges Her Majesty's Government to increase the basic rate of pensions paid to former Colonial Service Officers and their dependants, and to publish the White Paper requested in this House on February 20 last (Hansard, col. 695).—(The Earl of Listowel.)
5.50 p.m.
LORD MILVERTON: My Lords, in rising to speak for one or two minutes in this debate I am in duty bound to declare my interest, as I myself am a Malayan pensioner. First of all, I should like to thank the noble Earl for the admirable way in which he has summarised the position in relation to these pensioners, and especially in relation to widows and orphans. I have made so many speeches over the last two years on this subject that I do not propose to weary your Lordships by repeating what I have already said—and said as recently as last February. But it is simply a question of the moral responsibility of the British Government, which I thought was established beyond any possibility of contradiction by the devastating speeches made by two former Secretaries of State during our last debate. It would ill become me to try to better the speeches they made then, and I am glad to see they propose to enlarge upon them to-day.
I had the privilege of serving under the noble Earl, Lord Swinton, and I also had the privilege, after I retired, of having dealings with the noble Viscount, Lord Boyd of Merton. There is also an ex-Under-Secretary of State about to speak, and one of the recently retired heads of the Colonial Service,

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Lord Twining, who will at least cast a fresher light on this matter than I am able to do. I would put in a special plea for the widows and orphans, which seems to me to be so easy of gratification, and it is incomprehensible that the Government should maintain their attitude. In the last debate I expressed a hope that it might have touched the brain of Her Majesty's Government, even if their heart had been hopelessly petrified by being kept in store in the Treasury. My Lords, I have great pleasure in saying that I warmly support the noble Earl, Lord Listowel.
5.53 p.m.
LORD TWINING: My Lords, I too must declare an interest because I am in receipt of a modest pension in respect of the period of my service in three Colonies. As the noble Earl has said, this subject has been debated in another place twice in recent months and in your Lordships' House as recently as February 20 last. It has also been the subject of Parliamentary Questions both in another place and in this House. It might be thought that there is no more to be said on this subject, but the fact that it is persistently raised and strong speeches are made indicates that there are widespread misgivings about the attitude of Her Majesty's Government in the matter. I will try to confine myself to what I consider to be the salient points.
We are dealing with two classes of persons: the former officers of the Colonial Service, and widows and orphans. In studying the reports of previous debates in Hansard, it is clear that there is a general awareness that there is a need, indeed a pressing need, for something to be done towards topping up the pensions of these deserving people to bring them into line with the increases in pensions in the United Kingdom. The stand which Her Majesty's Government have taken is based on what they call the principle that the pensions of officers of Her Majesty's Oversea Civil Service are the responsibility of the Governments that employ them. This, my Lords, seems to be less of a principle and more of a policy.
In the debate of February 20, my noble friend Lord Boyd of Merton most
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eloquently stated his view about the position. He referred to a statement contained in paragraph 3 of a Colonial Office Paper issued in 1954, called Reorganisation of the Colonial Service, which reads:
"Constitutionally all officers of the Colonial Service are servants of the Crown, and the conditions of their employment are embodied in Colonial Regulations. These Regulations constitute the Secretary of State as the ultimate authority for appointment, discipline, promotions and general conditions of service."
My noble friend Lord Boyd of Merton went on to say that this statement had been taken at its face value and that he, for one, believed that it represented a pledge from which we cannot honourably depart. My Lords, I endorse this view. I have had wide experience of the Colonial Service and I can say that it has been generally taken for granted that the authority which had the responsibility for the recruitment of these men and women, for posting them to a particular Colony, for transferring them, for disciplining them and for laying down the conditions of their Service, must also have the responsibility for their welfare and for ensuring that their rights are fully protected.
What have Her Majesty's Government done about pensions? In 1959 a dispatch was sent to the Governments of all the former and then existing Colonial Territories inviting them to give the pensioners of the Oversea Service the same increases as had been granted to the pensioners of the Home Civil Service. Out of a total of 43 Governments which were consulted, 33 agreed to grant increases not less generous than those under the United Kingdom Pensions (Increase) Act. This information rather distorts the picture because some of the Governments had a large number of pensioners, while others had but few. I understand that at the end of 1961 there were some 11,000 Colonial Service pensioners paid by the Crown Agents, of whom 2,900 were in receipt of sub-standard pensions. In addition, there were 4,000 widow and orphan pensioners, 2,300 of whom were not receiving increased pensions.
I am informed that the estimated cost of topping up these pensions would be £180,000 per annum in respect of former officers and £110,000 in respect of widows and orphans. But these figures can be misleading because

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the position is constantly changing, on the one hand through deaths, and, on the other hand, through new retirements, especially at the moment from East African territories. This does not include local pensioners or pensions paid through agencies other than the Crown Agents. I most strongly support the suggestion of the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, that a White Paper should be published setting out the known facts so as to enable us to get a proper measure of the problem.
In the replies of the Government spokesmen in previous debates it has been stated that negotiations are continuing with the Governments concerned, but these do not seem to have been very effective so far; nor does there appear to be that sense of urgency which the position demands. The Government seem to fear that if they admit any responsibility in the matter there might be a general default by these overseas Governments in respect of their liability for the payment of pensions. I do not really believe that we should have undue fears on this score. The Secretary of State can still exercise his authority in the case of dependent territories, especially those that are in receipt of grants-in-aid. As regards the former Colonies which are now independent, we are dealing with honourable people who have accepted the public service agreements which were negotiated as a vital prerequisite to independence. Moreover, from a purely practical point of view, the leaders of these countries are well aware that they must preserve their credit status if they are to attract the capital they so badly need, and it is unlikely that they would risk impairing their credit by such a default.
Her Majesty's Government are already taking responsibility in respect of the compensation to be paid to officers whose careers are being cut short when a Colonial territory attains independence, and this is part of the price that has to be paid for the "wind of change" policy. Furthermore, Her Majesty's Government are granting substantial aid to these States, so there would be nothing unusual in attaching conditions to such aid and this question of pensions could well be made one of the conditions.
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There is one point—perhaps it could be described as a technical point—which I do not think has been raised before. Under the regulations governing pensions an officer has the right to commute a portion of his total pension and receive a gratuity and a reduced pension. In such cases, where an overseas Government has increased pensions, this principle has not been followed, and the pensioner has been denied the right to commute any part of the increase. This is surely illogical and contrary to the spirit, if not to the letter, of the pensions policy.
I must now turn to widows' and orphans' pensions These were introduced, rather tardily, perhaps, in the 1920's or a little later. In some cases, Colonial Governments did not agree to introduce a scheme under which all contributions were placed into a special fund, but they preferred to pay into general revenue the contributions compulsorily taken from serving officers, whether or not they were married or single. Those officers who complained—and in those days there were no Civil Service associations to protect their interests—were assured that their contributions were as safe as gilt-edged securities. The Colonial Office exerted no pressure on Colonial Governments to do otherwise. Perhaps they found that in some cases, without these contributions, the local budgets would not be balanced, which would necessitate the payment of grants in aid by Her Majesty's Treasury. As a result, there are many pensioners and contributors, who feel that their widows' and orphans' pensions are not secure.
Even in those cases where a scheme has been introduced, the position is not altogether satisfactory. It is very difficult to get information about the state of the funds. Surely the contributors have a right to know how the funds of these schemes stand, and whether there are periodic actuarial reviews which, it is generally believed, would show that these widows' and orphans' pensions could be materially increased from those funds, without any extra payment to an overseas Government by Her Majesty's Government. I hope that the Government will seriously consider this matter,

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and arrange for an annual report of these schemes to be published and a copy sent to each contributor.
In conclusion, my Lords, may I say that the Colonial Service has a proud record and deserves well of this country. I find it shameful that these pensioners have cause to feel a strong sense of grievance, and I hope that Her Majesty's Government will do everything possible to alleviate the position, either by exercising their influence with the Governments concerned, or, if necessary, shouldering the moral responsibility which I believe is theirs.
6.2 p.m.
LORD COLYTON: My Lords, I am particularly grateful to the noble Earl for moving this Resolution to-day, since owing to my absence in Africa I was unable to take part in the debate in your Lordships' House on February 20. I should like to say right away that I fully support all, or nearly all, the arguments put forward by the noble Earl. He has had warm support from two former Governors, and my noble friend Lord Boyd of Merton, with his vast experience as Secretary of State, who is to follow me, will no doubt develop these arguments in other directions. I must say that when I read his notable contribution to the last debate I really felt that the last word had been said. I thought that the Government at last—and, of course, basically it is the Treasury—would have to address themselves to the task of meeting the demands both of justice and of honour.
I should like to turn to the position of the former British officials in the Sudan Government and their dependants who, though they are not, strictly speaking, covered by the terms of this Motion, are in an analogous position, or even worse, than the former Colonial Service officers; and I believe this is the first time that this subject has been raised in your Lordships' House. In the course of my speech I shall try to show that the arguments which apply to the former Colonial Service officers about the need for adjustment in the basic rates of pensions apply equally strongly to the former Sudan officials. Perhaps I may justify my right to do so, because for four years before the war I occupied what
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might be called the Sudan desk in the Residency and subsequently the Embassy in Cairo, and spent much time visiting the Sudan. I know from my personal knowledge, and I feel sure that your Lordships will agree, that there was no finer body of British officials than those who served in the Sudan, and I would most strongly urge that their case, also, should be given fresh and sympathetic consideration by the Government.
On my return here in March I was very struck by the note of extreme bitternes that had crept into the correspondence emanating from the Sudan Government Pensioners' Association, with whom I am in contact. I have a number of friends among the former members of the Political Service, and many of them have done good work in this country and abroad since their retirement. I am told that, quite apart from the elementary requirements of justice, there are now many cases of real hardship, especially among widows.
My Lords, what are the facts? On January 1, 1956, the administration of the Condominium of the Sudan was handed over to the Sudanese. While the negotiations between the British and Egyptian Governments on the future status of the Sudan were proceeding, the Sudan Pensioners' Association made representations about their position. They received a letter from the Private Secretary to the Governor-General dated December 21, 1954, from which the following is an extract:
"His Excellency the Governor-General has had discussions with H.M. Government regarding the payment of pensions of past and present British members of the Sudan Civil Service and their dependants. H.M. Government are well aware of their anxieties in this matter, and recognise their obligations towards officials who hold or held their posts as a result of having been appointed to them by the Governor-General during the period of the Condominium.
"These officials are entitled to expect that the pensions and other benefits for which they and their dependants may be qualified under existing laws and regulations shall be safeguarded, and that these pensions will continue to be paid at their present value in sterling H.M.G. in the United Kingdom accordingly make known their intention, when the Sudan determines its future status, to ensure observance of this safeguard by securing its embodiment in a formal agreement to be entered into between H.M.G. and the Government of the Sudan."
This assurance did provide the safeguard which the pensioners had sought,

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but, unfortunately, Her Majesty's Government failed to secure the embodiment of this safeguard in any formal agreement with the Sudan Government. All their efforts since then to persuade the Government of the Sudan to enter into such an agreement have been unsuccessful.
As a result of representations by the Association over a period of seven years, concluding with a Memorial to the Prime Minister, the Foreign Office conveyed to the Association in July, 1959, what was described as an "assurance" in the following terms:
"Although it has not been possible to complete a formal agreement with the Republic of the Sudan to secure the continued payment of pensions to British officials of the former Condominium Government of the Anglo-Egyptian Sudan at existing rates of exchange, the Secretary of State cannot envisage a situation in which the pensions of these officials and their dependants would not be secure."
This fell very far short of the undertaking which the Association had hoped to receive, but it was, nevertheless, decided to accept it in the spirit in Which it was given. But the fact remains that, unlike the case of all other independent overseas territories, no formal agreement whatever exists between Her Majesty's Government and the Sudan Government safeguarding the rights of the pensioners. In the light of this unsatisfactory situation, it was really not surprising that, when the Sudan Pensioners' Association sought to obtain increases in basic pensions to meet the rise in the cost of living, they came up against extreme difficulties.
After the independence of the Sudan, the Foreign Office informed the Association that it was "up to them" to negotiate direct with the Republic of the Sudan. A closely-argued case was prepared, but owing to the Suez crisis this was not presented until January, 1957. The Sudanese Government refused to consider the Association's case and an appeal was made in August, 1958, supported by a new statement. No reply was received from the Sudanese Government, but the Foreign Office notified the Association on October 17, 1960, that Her Majesty's Ambassador in Khartoum had been informed by the Sudanese Ministry of Foreign Affairs that they could not afford to pay any increases beyond the supplements
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already granted to those pensioners who had retired before 1950. This confirmed the Association's conviction that no further post-service benefits could be expected from the Sudanese Government, and that their only recourse, therefore, was to the United Kingdom Government.
In approaching the matter from that angle, the Sudan pensioners felt, as did the ex-Colonial Service pensioners, that their case was analogous to that of the retired members of the Burma, India and Pakistan services. I am well aware that the Government have held that the circumstances of these pensioners were quite different from those of the former members of the Colonial Service. I know the position is a complicated one, but, as I understand it, the basis of the Treasury argument is that the Secretary of State for India, and later Burma, had a different statutory responsibility from that of the Secretary of State for the Colonies. Quite frankly, I have never seen any very clear explanation of this distinction, but, even if it exists, it seems to me that it is of a highly technical nature.
Now in the case of the Sudan pensioners, as well as in the case of the Colonial Service pensioners, the issue, in my view, is fundamentally a moral one. At any rate, a request by the Sudan pensioners to be given the same treatment as those of India, Burma and Pakistan was rejected by Her Majesty's Government. Not only that, but it was stated, in a letter from the then Foreign Secretary, Mr. Selwyn Lloyd, to Sir Duncan Cumming, chairman of the Sudan-British Government Pensioners' Association, that the Sudan was never a part of the Commonwealth, and that its officials were at no time in the service of the Crown. My Lords, I must tell you frankly that that statement caused great distress to former British members of the Sudan service. They had always regarded themselves as servants of the Crown in peace and in war. Indeed, when the last war came they were forbidden, under penalty of imprisonment, to leave their posts to join the Armed Forces, in exactly the same way as other members of the British Civil Service were forbidden. It was therefore a great shock to them, and one which one must not minimise, when they found that they were being

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put in an inferior category and treated as the servants of a foreign Government.
At any rate, having had their appeal for increases in basic pensions rejected, first by the Sudan Government on financial grounds and then by Her Majesty's Government on legal and technical grounds, all that the Sudan pensioners could do was to invoke the assistance of the Foreign Office in some further representations to the Sudan Government.
What, in fact, is involved in all this? Your Lordships have had the figures for the ex-Colonial Service pensioners quoted this afternoon. In the case of the Sudan, there was a total of 932 pensioners in March of this year, of whom 244 had received supplements up to £100 a year and 321 had received supplements ranging from £100 to £135 a year. These numbers, as the noble Earl (I think it was) said, are rapidly decreasing. About 660 of the pensioners are between the ages of 60 and 80. The total cost of applying the principles of the Pensions (Increase) Act, 1959, to the Sudan pensioners would be between £60,000 and £70,000.
In 1959 we lent the Sudan £5 million. Last year we lent them £500,000 for aircraft, and in March this year, again, £500,000 for veterinary services. I am certainly not against any of these things. On the contrary, I am strongly in favour of giving all the financial aid we can afford to the Sudanese Government. But if we do, is it really unreasonable to ask them to meet what is an elementary obligation on their part to their former officials? In addition to these loans, the Sudanese Government are getting at the present time the Egyptian compensation for the High Dam scheme, and they have had a record cotton crop, with good prices. Is it really asking for too much to urge them to accept this small, additional, financial burden? Yet, my Lords, in another place on April 18 my honourable friend the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs said that he did not consider that further representations to the Sudan Government would serve any useful purpose. My Lords, if this really is the last word of the Foreign Office, are we not bound to demand Her Majesty's Government to assume this obligation themselves? I know very well that it is said that to
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"top up" the basic pensions from British funds would act merely as an invitation to those Governments who had made the appropriate increases to abandon or to decrease them in the future; but in the long run, surely, it must be the interests of the pensioners themselves which must have the first priority.
I submit to your Lordships that in the last resort it is the positive duty of the British Government to accept responsibility, whether in the case of the former Colonial servants or in the case of the Sudan pensioners. It all forms part of the same problem, and I hope that the representations which have been made again this afternoon in your Lordships' House, as well as those in another place, will lead to a new approach to the whole question. We hope that the Government will work out some scheme for cutting through the "red tape" in one of the ways that have been suggested to-day, so that these loyal servants of Great Britain overseas may receive fair treatment along with other sections of the British people. I am reminded of the fact that, at the time of the establishment of the Condominium of the Anglo-Egyptian Sudan in 1899, the then Prime Minister, Lord Salisbury, said that he did not allow himself to be unduly bound by precedent and convention. I hope that the present Government will do likewise in dealing with the consequences of that decision.
6.17 p.m.
VISCOUNT BOYD OF MERTON: My Lords, I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Hastings, who I understand is to reply, will have a more cheerful story to tell this evening than he was able to tell us on February 20 last, and that his speech to-night will in fact go to the core of the problem—that is, where the ultimate responsibility really lies. My Lords, since we had the last debate we have had not the White Paper for which we had hoped on this particular subject, but another White Paper called Recruitment for Services Overseas—Future Policy. All of us welcome, I think, that White Paper, and the realism that it shows, and we wish success to all the plans outlined in it; but I am bound to say that I think the response to it in the future will be better if justice is clearly shown to have been done to those who have served us so well in the past.

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We have not had the White Paper we hoped we should have, but, as the noble Earl pointed out, other things have happened since our last debate. If it is true, as I fear it may well be, that Colonial Service overseas pensioners are dying at the rate of one a day, it means that something like 100 Colonial Service pensioners must have died since we last discussed this problem. The White Paper which we hope to see—and I join with the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, in pressing that we should have it—will, I hope, give us all the facts we need. I do not think anybody could claim that the talks that have taken place between my right honourable friend the Secretary for Technical Co-operation (Which we all welcome) and overseas pensioners are any substitute for that particular White Paper, and I must express my own surprise that one reason given, I think, to some of the pensioners for not publishing a White Paper is that Her Majesty's Government are not fully informed about the payment of pensions by those independent Governments Which formerly employed overseas officers. A second reason given, I understand, is that information regarding the number of overseas pensioners paid by the dependent territories is also incomplete. I find this extremely puzzling. I also find it very puzzling that there is apparently some hesitation about publishing a White Paper Which will include in it references to action taken by independent members of the Commonwealth. I cannot believe that, in a society like our Common wealth, a way round could not be found to include observations by independent Governments, prefaced by some such phrase as, "We are greatly indebted to the Government of Ghana", or whoever it may be, "for having supplied us with this information".
My Lords, I have said that I hope we shall have some good news to-day, and that we shall also have answers to some of the points that were raised in the debate on February 20; points that have been repeated again to-day—the separate treatment of India, Pakistan, Burma and Palestine, for example. The argument which I have tried to demolish is that the territories which have behaved properly and generously would resent it if pensions were topped-up elsewhere, or
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that some might go back altogether on their future obligations. I hope that we shall have some statement that will be some answer to the general scepticism with which these arguments were held in the House. I also hope that the noble Lord, Lord Hastings, will be able to tell us of some practical results of the current talks which he said were going on between five of the eleven independent Commonwealth countries, where the level of pensions for those receiving less than £400 a year falls below the level in the United Kingdom. If any good results have ensued from these talks—and there are rumours that in one or two small territories they have done so—I hope we shall hear how many people are affected. I also hope that we shall hear how many people in the larger territories are not affected, and are still in real need of this topping-up of their pensions.
The noble Lord, Lord Hastings, was good enough to say on February 20 last that he was impressed by the contents of the speech I then made, and that he felt sure that his right honourable friend would have the same reaction. I very much hope that reflection and consultation together has not caused him to vary that view. He was good enough to tell me yesterday that he intended to deal to-night with the speech which I then made, and that there were certain points which he did not then answer. Of course, I do not know what my noble friend Lord Hastings has it in mind to say to-night; but I hope he will not suggest that I or anybody else have ever denied that colonial territories have some duty in this matter. Of course they have a duty in this matter, and we rejoice when so many of them freely and generously acknowledge that duty. We are very glad that they have done so. But it is the ultimate responsibility, which is invoked only when territories do not carry out their preliminary duty, that in my view unmistakably rests on the shoulders of Her Majesty's Government.
I do not know whether my noble friend has perhaps delved into past speeches which I may have made during my exceptionally long tenure in the Colonial Office, but if he has been able to bring out occasions on which I may have appeared at the time to subscribe to the view which he put forward on

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February 20 I hope he will remember that it was four, or sometimes seven or eight, years ago, and at a time when there was good reason to hope that many, if not most, of the territories concerned would accept their own responsibility. If my noble friend, by delving into any of my past speeches, could find an occasion when I might have strayed into putting what is from time to time called the "Treasury view", I hope he will show the same understanding of my problems then as we all feel for him to-day. And I hope that, when the time comes—which I hope is long postponed—and he is released from his present responsibilities, we can meet and compare notes and views together, though I hope very much that long before that day comes about justice will have been done in this case.
My Lords, I fully agree with my noble friend Lord Twining that the real test is this: that the appointment of officers, their allocation to particular posts, their transfers, their salaries, their pension conditions, the compulsory levy on their salaries for widows and orphans (surely a most unusual thing, and one which puts a particular obligation on all of us), and their retirement, were, and still remain, our responsibility; and when we consider that this responsibility can be discharged by a payment now of about £286,000 a year, which payment is, unhappily, diminishing every year, I am frankly very surprised that we should have any difficulty in getting consideration for this case. As noble Lords know, and as has been pointed out to-night, we are giving very large sums to a large number of colonial and former colonial territories, and we all rejoice that we are doing so. But many of us feel that a less spectacular though equally valuable form of help might be to relieve those territories, who do not feel able to carry it out, of their responsibility (if it is held to be their responsibility) of topping-up, by allotting some part of the payments now being made to them for this particular purpose. I do not, of course, know what the noble Lord will say, or whether he has any suggestions to make. If he has, we shall all rejoice if they are practical suggestions which will go to the core of the problem of where the responsibility lies, and not merely delay the decision and pass a bit
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of time. But in my opinion, and that of many others who have had to deal with this problem, this responsibility lies fairly and squarely on our shoulders.
6.26 p.m.
THE EARL OF SWINTON: My Lords, as thirty years or more ago I was for some years Secretary of State for the Colonies, I have no doubt that I was responsible for recruiting quite a number of the retired civil servants who are the subject of this Motion to-day. That being so, I feel bound in honour and duty to give my whole-hearted support to the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, in his Motion. I should have thought that certainly nobody who has been a Secretary of State, like Lord Boyd of Merton and myself, or indeed nobody on any side of this House, could possibly deny, whatever the legal niceties of the case, that the moral responsibility for these men who gave such good service, and for the widows of those who have died—and not a few of them died actually in the Service—is, without any question, our responsibility.
The Secretary of State recruited every one of these men. The Colonies were not independent when these men were recruited, and they did not have an independent financial responsibility. No doubt regulations were issued by colonial Governors, such as my noble friends Lord Twining or Lord Milverton; but those instructions, those regulations, those ordinances, were made by the colonial Governments either on the express instructions, or with the approval, of the Secretary of State for the Colonies. The Secretary of State laid down what these men were to be paid, their conditions of service, the conditions and the terms under which they would retire, and, without any question, he transferred them from one territory to another. Indeed, it was part of their terms of service to be transferred from one territory to another, to wherever the Secretary of State thought they could best render service.
My Lords, there is no dispute to-day that these people ought to be paid. That the Government have themselves laid down, because they have informed all the Governments, whether they are now Governments of independent territories or whether they are still Governments of

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dependent territories, what ought to be the increase which morally these pensioners should receive. The question of the cost concerns a very small sum. It has been pointed out that the amount diminishes year by year; but I suppose the Government really must know, near enough, what are the figures. I suppose the figures are certainly under £200,000 a year to-day; and then there is the small addition in connection with the Sudan, which I am very glad Lord Colyton mentioned. But there is no question about what the sum should be; the only dispute is as to who should pay it.
The Governments of the Colonies, or of the Territories who were Colonies but are now independent, should pay if they can. Quite a number of them have—and more honour to them! I agree with Lord Twining: I have no doubt that they will go on paying. But the extraordinary argument is advanced that our Government should not accept their obvious moral responsibility, where the pensions have not been increased, for fear that some Government may take advantage of that and either withdraw or reduce what it is now doing. In forty years or so of public service, I have heard some odd arguments come out of the Treasury, but I have never heard an argument more odd than this one.
What does it come to? We must not do what we know is right for fear that we should encourage somebody else to do what is wrong. I do not know whether we are a Christian country today. Certainly that is the oddest Christian doctrine I have ever heard announced. Even if I cannot appeal to my noble friend on grounds of Christianity—and I know very well I can—I sympathise with him because I know exactly where his heart is, whatever his tongue has to say on instructions from other quarters. Did anybody ever hear a more unethical argument than that?
The Government have been very firm in doing exactly the opposite and laying down the opposite principle in other matters. I recall on one occasion when I pointed out that about four-fifths of the members of the United Nations had failed to pay their subscriptions, and ventured to suggest that it might encourage them to pay if we reduced our subscription a little for the moment and
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said we would "top up" (if that is the right expression) when the others had done the same, I was taken to task by no less a person than the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, who said that that was a most immoral suggestion. I do not know if it was moral or not. I thought it was rather sensible. But the Secretary of State said that it was our duty to pay our subscription and we should be much more likely (I paraphrase what he said) to encourage other people to do their duty if they saw that we were doing ours. Clearly the Government cannot have it both ways. If it is right that we should do our duty and pay our subscription to the United Nations, whatever anybody else does, it is our plain and bounden duty to pay this tiny sum (tiny compared with the vast Budgets with which we are faced to-day) to people whose need is very great, whose claim is beyond any question and who deserve as well of this country and this Parliament as any set of men there are.
6.33 p.m.
LORD WALSTON: My Lords, we have heard the most shocking tale of what is little more than the legalised evasion of responsibility. The responsibility for this has been laid by the noble Earl who has just spoken at the doors of the Treasury. It is probably true that it originally stemmed from the Treasury, but I do not think it is fair to them to place the blame on their shoulders. It must be the Government's responsibility for accepting the advice of the Treasury.
Shocking though the story is, and almost unbelievable to many of us, the issues are very simple. I would ask the noble Lord who is going to reply a question to which I should like a straight answer, and I am sure that I know what it will be. Let me give him an example, not of Government action, but of the action of a private individual. Let me take as an example a neighbour of the noble Lord who owns an estate which he has farmed for many years and on which there are old farm servants who have been working there all their lives. The farm is sold and there is an understanding that the new owner will take on these people and look after them. However, shortly after that one or two of these old farm servants retire, the

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new owner refuses to take the responsibility of looking after them, and they are left in poverty, even in destitution. What would the noble Lord think of the former owner of that farm if he turned his back on those who had served him and his family for generations and said that it was no responsibility of his—it was the responsibility of the new owner? He made the arrangements with the new owner and if the latter did not live up to them, the farm servants who had retired could not come back to him for anything. I am certain that the noble Lord would have a pretty low opinion of that neighbour of his, and I am even more certain that if it happened in his own case he would not for one moment consider turning his back on those men.
Should we have a different standard of behaviour for the Government than we have for individuals? If I am right in thinking that the noble Lord would turn his back on his neighbour who behaved in that way, what is to prevent his turning his back on his Government, if it behaves in this way? Should we be more charitable to the Government just because it happens to be large, almost amorphous, and happens to have the Treasury behind whispering what to do?
It is no good saying that in the case I have cited a man is dealing with his own money whereas the Government are dealing with the taxpayer's money. Of course, the Government are dealing with the country's money; and though they must safeguard the money of the country, they must also safeguard the conscience of the country and of the taxpayer. I cannot, for the life of me, see how this simple analogy can be gainsaid or shown to be different in any way from the present position in respect of this small number of unfortunate public servants who made the mistake, often not of their own accord, of serving in the wrong Colony.
I hope that even if he cannot say so today, the noble Lord will be able to tell us before long that all the arguments that so many noble Lords with so much experience from all sides of the House have pressed upon the Government are being listened to and that we shall have a Government, in this respect at least, who behave no
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less well to the country's servants than we expect any individual to behave to his own.
6.39 p.m.
LORD HASTINGS: My Lords, only two-and-a-half months ago we had an interesting debate on this very subject of increases in pensions for former overseas civil servants and officers of the old Colonial Service. In view of what was said on all sides on that occasion and of my own closing remarks, I think it is no surprise that the noble Earl should have brought forward his Motion this afternoon. As he said, he has timed it at the most convenient moment, when he thought the Government had had time to consider the previous debate, and one week after the meeting with the Overseas' Pensioners' Association, to which I referred on the last occasion, and which the noble Earl seemed to think had by no means satisfied the delegation from the Association. I will take the opportunity of referring to this later on in my speech.
Meanwhile, I should like to thank the noble Earl for the coherent and comprehensive manner in which he introduced this debate, and also for the opportunity that it gives me to continue an argument of two-and-a-half months ago, and, I hope, to bring new information to it which will be of interest to your Lordships. At the same time, I think it is significant that every speaker who took part in the debate then has returned to your Lordships' House to take part to-day, with the unfortunate exception of the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, who moved the previous Motion but cannot be here to-day: and we have to welcome additions in the persons of the noble Lord, Lord Colyton, who has introduced a completely new angle to the general subject which is of great interest, and the noble Lord, Lord Walston, who has added his experience of overseas territories to that of other noble Lords.
Of course, a large part of the argument, and really most of it, hangs around the question of the moral obligations of Her Majesty's Government. I am sure every noble Lord realises that I fully understand this point of view and appreciate the strength of feeling with which it is held by all those overseas

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civil servants who have been employed in the colonial territories. Having lived in Africa for a number of years and known a good many of them, I could hardly fail to sympathise with their point of view. But it is difficult to argue on moral questions, and, in spite of the analogy drawn by the noble Lord, Lord Walston, about the farmer and the estate owner, both of which We are ourselves (though he "got at me" very nicely in that way) when it comes to Governments, it is difficult to argue about moral obligations.
I rather liked the phrase used by the noble Lord, Lord Twining, who said that it was not really so much a matter of principle as of policy. Taking that as a cue, I feel that I am bound to quote from one or two documents to indicate that this policy or principle, whichever it may be, is not a new thing which stems from the Colonial Paper No. 306, which has been quoted so many times in aid of the case of noble Lords here, and particularly, of course, paragraph 3 of that document. If noble Lords are going to quote paragraph 3, although it may seem legalistic (and I apologise for that) I think one must, at the same time, read paragraph 2. In paragraph 2 it says:
"Although the members of these Services are directly employed and paid by the territorial Governments, they are under the general direction and patronage of the Secretary of State for the Colonies."
That puts a slightly different emphasis the other way from the way in which the quotation from paragraph 3 is interpreted by noble Lords who have used it.
VISCOUNT BOYD OF MERTON: My Lords, would the noble Lord read the next sentence?
LORD HASTINGS: Noble Lords have chosen the pieces that they wanted to quote, and I was choosing the piece that I felt I should bring to your Lordships' attention. However, paragraph 2 goes on to say:
"They have, rightly, regarded themselves and have been regarded as belonging to a general service under the Crown as well as to the local services of the territories in which they are immediately serving."
If that were the only thing I was going to quote, I would not have brought it up; but I think I must also draw the
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attention of your Lordships to a colonial regulation issued by the Colonial Office in 1911 relating to pensions and gratuities made to European officers serving in the British Protectorates in East Africa. That says:
"Pensions and gratuities will be submitted to the Lords Commissioners of H.M. Treasury for their sanction and, when sanctioned, will be made a charge on the Protectorate revenue."
And if we go further back than that, there is a document of 1887 which is even more specific. Section 2 of the Pensions (Colonial Service) Act, which dealt with mixed employment in the Colonial and Home Civil Services, states:
"No payment should be made from the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom or moneys voted by Parliament in respect of any employment in the permanent Civil Service of the Colony."
THE EARL OF SWINTON: The noble Lord has quoted with great accuracy a regulation of 1911 and a regulation of Mr. Gladstone's in 1887. But is it not a fact that when those regulations were made by the Government here, the Colonial Secretary of State here was entirely responsible for telling the local Governments exactly what they had to do? It is true that the Government said that Kenya had to pay this; but then the Colonial Secretary ordered Kenya to pay it and was in a position to see that Kenya did pay it. That is the difference.
LORD HASTINGS: I welcome the intervention of the noble Earl, although I am not going to reply to that particular point at this moment, because I was trying to show that this is not a new policy. In the estimation of the noble Earl there may be new conditions which require a change of policy; but to argue that this policy is something immoral is not really fair, because it has always been the policy of the Government.
LORD DERWENT: The policy, I suppose, could always have been wrong.
LORD HASTINGS: I can only say: ask Mr. Gladstone.
LORD SILKIN: My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord to explain what would have happened if one of these Colonies had made default in payment? Would

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not the British Government have felt themselves responsible for paying?
LORD HASTINGS: I am only at the very beginning of my speech, and I am afraid it will take rather a long time if I answer all these points, most of which will be covered in the course of my speech.
LORD SILKIN: Will this point be covered?
LORD HASTINGS: This one is covered more or less somewhere later on. I am not going to pursue this difficult moral argument now, because really it is quite impossible to continue in that way. In fact, I have to state, quite frankly, that at the moment Her Majesty's Government continue, and will continue, to insist on the responsibility of overseas territories for their obligations in respect of pensions. Therefore, I believe it would be much more fruitful if I were to consider the practical problem before us and whether anything can be done to meet that problem.
In our last debate the discussion centred upon this topping up of pension increases to the level in the United Kingdom, especially for the older officers and their widows; and those were more or less the terms of the Motion moved by the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore. The noble Viscount, Lord Boyd of Merton, spoke in that debate with great force, and we are glad to see him in his place to-day. Incidentally, I am most grateful for his mention of something which can go to the credit of the Department of Technical Co-operation, responsible for the publication of the White Paper Recruitment for Service Overseas: and, indeed, he has seen a previous White Paper on the preliminary work of the Department, and I am glad he mentioned that. But in that speech he referred to the dispatch of October 2, 1959, which he circulated a week before he retired as Secretary of State at the Colonial Office, and to which reference has already been made. The noble Viscount put up a tremendous and very clever defence of himself, if I may say so, without knowing precisely what I was going to say. But I will not take him to task very much.
On re-reading that speech, I could not help thinking to myself that while he
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was Secretary of State for five and a half years there was no indication at all that Her Majesty's Government were thinking of taking over the pension increases, or topping them up at that time. In fact, just before he retired, he issued a circular inviting all overseas territories to do just that. Evidently he was disappointed with the results, because only two and a half years later he comes here and says that there is a wholly new situation (and this has been said also by other noble Lords) which demands our consideration. Therefore, apart from the fact that I wonder why he was not successful in persuading the Government to top up pensions at that time, I think it is reasonable to examine what has happened since he issued that circular.
VISCOUNT BOYD OF MERTON: The noble Lord fairly said that I sent out that circular seven days before I left the Colonial Office. Clearly, what action I should have taken had I stayed on and seen the replies, I cannot say now. But I think I should have tried to follow the line I have taken to-night.
LORD HASTINGS: The point really was that this problem of the older Civil Service pensioners was with us in 1954, and the noble Lord lived with it for five years and then sent out this circular. He felt disappointed at the results, and perhaps would have done something which we have not yet done. I will give a few figures, because they are interesting.
The noble Lord, Lord Twining, mentioned many figures, but I am afraid he did it so quickly that I could not take them all in. This is important. At the time of the circular there were 27 dependent territories—including Nigeria, at that time one of the largest countries with most pensioners—which had schemes inferior in general to that pertaining in the United Kingdom. After that despatch, 9 of these 27 countries introduced schemes directly related to the terms of our United Kingdom Pensions (Increase) Act, 1959, and a further 6 introduced schemes on a somewhat different basis, but at least as generous as, or better than, the terms of that Act. Of the remaining 12, as the noble Viscount reminded me, with 5 of them negotiations are still proceeding. I think that what the noble Viscount has heard is probably fairly correct. and

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although I cannot give any information at the moment, because negotiations are not completed, the prospects in those five cases appear to be pretty good. So I think one can say quite fairly that that dispatch was a success, and has not been the failure that some noble Lords have made it out to be. Therefore Her Majesty's Government will continue to press the Oversea Governments, and we believe that we shall do so with success, now and in the future.
Now we come to the request for top-ping-up increases which are said to cost, including widows and orphans, £286,000—that is based on the figure we were using in our last debate. I do not think it is very useful to speculate about figures, but I understand that that is probably a considerable under-estimate, and that it will be rather more than that. If Her Majesty's Government ware to undertake to top up these increases, I think we must ask ourselves what the consequences would be. Obviously, there would be no further increases from any territories, independent or dependent. I think we must all agree with that. Therefore, Her Majesty's Government will be taking over an obligation for all time until even the present officers serving are with us no longer, which will be many years yet, I am glad to think.
In addition to that, I think the Government would have to consider whether, by taking this step, they might not find themselves obliged in due course to take over all increases in pensions. I will not produce the argument to which the noble Earl, Lord Swinton, so strongly objects, and, in fact, to which all noble Lords object, that the basic pensions would be in any danger. But I think that in any White Paper such as is asked for by the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, the possible consequences for the Government if they were obliged to take over all increases in pensions must at least be considered. I thought that one or two figures would interest the House, and perhaps surprise some of your Lordships. Because, after all, two-thirds of all pensioners now enjoy pensions as good as, and in many cases much better than, they would enjoy if they were being paid at the United Kingdom level. For instance, among the lowest-paid pensions, on a basic pension of £200 the
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increase under the United Kingdom 1959 Act is in the order of £143 over and above the basic of £200. In the Bahamas, it is £288, and in Hong Kong £245—a very important difference indeed to those people living on such small pensions. On the basic level of £300, the United Kingdom increase is £166.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: My Lords, I hope the noble Lord will excuse me for interrupting. I should be the last person to interrupt his speech, if I did not feel it was necessary, as I know how irritating it is. Surely these examples are taken from two of the richest Colonies. They are extremely small, and will affect very few people indeed. They really cannot be used as a basis for generalisation.
LORD HASTINGS: Nevertheless we are dealing with individuals. Noble Lords have insisted that this is a human problem, and I suggest that every individual counts. But these are not the only territories I am going to mention. In the Bahamas the figure is £388; in the United Kingdom £166, and in Fiji, again a small territory and not very rich, £300. In the middle grade on a basic salary of £700, the United Kingdom level is an increase of £259. In Nyasaland, which is not rich, it is £382, and in Northern Rhodesia, £463—over £200 more. These are very important differences. In the top level, I have before me figures relating to pensions paid to people who retired before the first post-war revision on a basic pension of £1,200. In Sarawak, for instance, the increase is £600, compared to only £352 in the United Kingdom. I just make that point. It is only fair, and to be expected, that the Government must consider the condition of these people if it were ever to become involved in taking over all increases in pensions over and above the level of the basic pension.
The noble Earl said (and this really reinforces the point he just made in an interjection) that independent territories never "cough up"—never give a pension increase except that based on an agreement made before independence. I do not think that is strictly accurate. In Nigeria, the increase arose from an agreement made prior to independence, but I believe that the situation there is not final. In Somaliland, an increase was given based on negotiations begun

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before independence, but they were not completed before independence. In Ceylon, the increases are now based on the local Ceylon cost of living.
I come to a suggestion which I think was put forward in relation to compensation payments in Tanganyika. I believe that the noble Earl said something about that, as did the noble Lord, Lord Twining. I think the suggestion made was that these Governments find it difficult to give pension increases because they are already saddled with payments for compensation. Did the noble Lord make that point? I thought he did—at any rate, he mentioned the large sums of compensation. I think it is worth pointing out two things. The first is that half of that money which falls to the Colony (as it was, now the independent country) to provide and pay to the expatriates by way of compensation as its own share is loaned from Her Majesty's Government as an interest-free loan. In the case of Uganda, for example, agreements have been signed which allows that loan to be repaid over a period of 25 years, interest-free, with no payment at all for the first six years. I think that that is a fairly generous arrangement. The other half is provided under the Overseas Services Aid Scheme, and is entirely a grant from Her Majesty's Government. So I do not think it can be said that the payment of this compensation handicaps countries and makes it more difficult for them to give any pension increases.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: My Lords, the point the noble Lord is making is that these countries cannot afford to pay compensation or pensions out of their own revenue. If Her Majesty's Government do not pay, they have to get a loan from here; which is exactly what we have been saying. If the Government do not pay, these countries cannot afford to pay: they have not the money.
LORD HASTINGS: They have to pay only half of the total; half is loaned from this Government, but interest-free, and they do not have to pay anything for the first six years. That does, I think, give them a fair chance to get on their feet. Therefore, the immediate effect of the Overseas Services Aid Scheme is that these Governments are
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relieved of paying a salary to their expatriate servants over and above the local level and are relieved also of paying children's, educational and travel allowances. Therefore they are making an immediate saving rather than the other way round.
The noble Lord, Lord Twining had a point about commutation of these pension increases. Of course every Oversea Civil Service officer is entitled to take approximately a quarter of his pension in a capital payment when he retires, with a lower rate of income payment thereafter. I imagine that the noble Lord would like him to be able to do that in respect of any increases received, but the difficulty about that is that increases are not given while the officer is serving, because he would not be having a pension at all if he were still serving. After he has retired he then gets an increase on his pension. How can he commute that and capitalise it? Because, after all, the Treasury, or whoever is paying it—that is, the Government concerned—does not know how long that person is going to live. It would involve difficult actuarial calculations and a life insurance scheme. That really is the answer to the noble Lord.
The noble Lord also mentioned widows and orphans and many other noble Lords were very concerned about them; and certainly in many cases their situation is very hard. At the same time I do not think there is any reason to doubt the security of their pensions, because these are also covered by Public Offices Agreements. As regards compulsory contributions which were made for a long time, in many cases, in order to obtain these pensions, and which were referred to by the noble Earl, Lord Swinton, and others, of course there are compulsory contributions for widows' and orphans' pensions in the Civil Service of this country; and there is no discrimination in that respect in respect of people serving overseas. There was a special question which the noble Lord, Lord Twining, had about widows and orphans. He kindly gave notice of his point, and this enabled me to obtain an answer, which I will read out, to make sure that I have it quite accurate. He complained about not being able to get sufficient information.

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The answer to his query is that annual accounts are prepared for all funded widows' and orphans' pensions Schemes, and provision is made in the relevant legislation An the majority of cases for the account to be laid down before the overseas Legislature concerned or otherwise published, for example, in the Government Gazette. Reports of actuarial valuations and annuities are made to the Governor or responsible Minister. Although not normally published they may be made accessible to staff associations, and I am not aware that any access has in fact been denied in any ease. The valuation reports on the Ghana Fund for instance may be inspected at the Grown Agent's Office. Copies of reports on the East African Widows' and Orphans' Pension Scheme have been made available to the appropriate pensioners' association. I can only add to the noble Lord that, if there is any scheme in which he is particularly interested and about which the information is unsatisfactory, if he will let me know I will do my best to find out the right people for him to contact, so that he can obtain the additional information, which is certainly there and available if one knows how to get it.
I think I should now say something about this vexed problem of India, Burma and Pakistan which was raised in the last debate, when I was not able to answer it fully. It has come up again to-day, and I should like to explain as briefly as possible that very complicated situation. In 1948, both India and Pakistan bought tapering annuities from their sterling balances in London in order to satisfy their liabilities and enable them to pay their Civil Service pensions for as long as those people were likely to remain alive; and they gave that capital to the British Government and bought the tapering annuities with it. Then in 1955 a further arrangement was entered into because the India and Pakistan Governments were anxious that Her Majesty's Government should take over full responsibility for all pensions, so relieving them of the whole thing.
All the pensions remaining to be paid by India were valued actuarially, and the capital value of the annuity payment to India due after 1955 was calculated; and from that was deducted liability for the pensions, less the income tax which
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India would have collected from them. As a result, India got the better of the balance and received a lump sum in payment. Pakistan, on the other hand, came out the wrong side, on balance, and would have had to pay a lump sum in capital to Her Majesty's Government which they could not afford at the time. That is why they continued paying basic pensions and India did not. The situation is exactly similar, the only difference being the result of these capital calculations. In respect of pensions increases, in 1947 both India and Pakistan agreed to a request from Her Majesty's Government to give increases to pensioners of their armed forces but not to their civil pensioners. That was taken into account when these capital schemes were agreed to. The result was that Her Majesty's Government realised it was quite unfair that the armed forces should get increases if the civilian officers did not; and that is why they took them over at that time.
In 1955, of course, they took over the armed forces pensioners as well, and in fact gave them an increase based on the 1952 Act, because the Indian Government had limited the increase to the 1947 Act. So the situation is that first the civilian officers were taken on by the Treasury, because they would have been treated unfairly, and after that the armed forces pensioners. There is no difference at all between India and Pakistan when it comes to the payment of increases.
Burma, as the noble Earl mentioned, gave increases in the first place to both military and civilian pensioners, but those increases were limited by treaty to pensions existing at the time of independence. Therefore, Her Majesty's Government took on a Burmese increase in pensions in 1952 as well. There was the additional reason that, prior to 1937 there was a unified Civil Service right throughout the Indian continent, India, Pakistan and Burma. Therefore, it was impossible, in equity, to separate any of those pensioners, one from the other; and that is why Her Majesty's Government took it upon themselves to act in that manner. They were also reinforced by a point which has been brought up by a noble Lord and which relates to the constitutional position of the Secretary of State for India. Because the India Act,

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1935, specifically provided that as from 1937 appointments to the Indian Civil Service, and the other Services mentioned there, should be made direct by the Secretary of State for India. In that respect there is a difference between his position and the position of the Secretary of State for the Colonies, which I think was mentioned, although not appreciated or understood by, the noble Lord, Lord Colyton.
When it came to giving further increases to the pensioners of India, Burma and Pakistan subsequent to 1955, of course, the Government here were really standing in the shoes of those overseas Governments. So that when the noble Viscount, Lord Boyd of Merton, sent a despatch to overseas territories he would have sent it to those Governments if we had not been acting for them. The increases were given because it was utterly impossible for Her Majesty's Government to refuse to give increases being asked by the Colonial Secretary, with the approval of his colleagues, from other overseas territories. I hope I have explained that position thoroughly and noble Lords will not find in it anything unduly complicated or irrational.
We have had really a continuation of the debate of two and a half months ago; we have been over some of the same arguments. I have tried to put some new points to your Lordships, and to answer those raised by various speakers. But I think it is now time we turned to the specific terms of the Resolution. After all, that is what we are here to debate. I would ask your Lordships to read it very carefully. The noble Earl is moving to resolve:
"That this House urges Her Majesty's Government to increase the basic rate of pensions paid to former Colonial Service Officers and their dependants."
That is the first part of the Resolution. What we were discussing two and a half months ago, and what we are discussing to-day, is an increase of pensions, topping-up pensions. We have not been talking of increasing the basic pension. I thought I must draw your Lordships' attention to the actual wording of the Resolution. I do not wish to quibble; I do not wish to be legalistic. But in point of fact the Resolution is asking us to accept something different from what
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noble Lords have been talking about and what we were talking about two and a half months ago.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: My Lords, if I may interrupt the noble Lord, may I say I accept every word of what he says? This Resolution is abominably badly drafted and literally means exactly what he has said. But I think everyone who has spoken understood exactly what I meant, in spite of the bad drafting, and I hope the Government do too.
LORD HASTINGS: We all understand what the noble Earl means and that is why at rather unseemly length I have dealt with the resolution in the way in which the noble Earl meant it to be dealt with. Strictly speaking, perhaps I need not have done. But I thought it right to point out this discrepancy to noble Lords.
There are only two ways (without boring your Lordships) as to how basic rate of pension is calculated, which is no doubt known by many but perhaps not all. There are only two ways in which basic rate of pension can be raised. One is by salary revision, which obviously cannot be made in the case of former Colonial Service officers, and the other is by changing the constant or, in other words, the percentage calculalation which is used. Normally, one takes the final pay of the retiring officer—say it is £1,600 when he retires—and counts the number of months he has served. I am thinking of a particular instance I gave to the noble Earl, Lord Swinton, when I wrote to him after the last debate. Say it is 263 months; and every month he gets one-six-hundredth of his final pay. The officer in this case in fact got £700, which is the basic rate. The only way you can change it is by salary revision, which is impossible after retirement, or by raising the constant; that is, instead of saying he should get one six-hundredth, saying he should get one five-hundredth for every month of service. I do not know whether it is possible to do it for former overseas civil servants who have retired, but if it were possible you could hardly do it without doing it for the existing ones. And that, of course, would affect all the local officers employed by countries, independent as well as dependent, and we should have to get their agreement to it.

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The point I want to make is this. If this were a Motion and we were having a useful debate and the noble Earl was going to withdraw his Motion at the end, I would not complain; it would be perfectly all right. But in fact this is a Resolution and the House is being asked to divide on a specific Resolution which is in fact asking us to do something which is virtually impossible of fulfilment. I have to point that out to the House, because if we were to divide and vote for this Resolution the House would be asking the Government to do something which, in the first place, is probably undesirable, in the second place is something which the noble Earl does not mean, and in the third place is something which it is impossible to effect.
Having dealt with that part of the Resolution, I would turn to the noble Earl's request for a White Paper. Other noble Lords have referred to the difficulties which they seem to know the Government are in in producing a White Paper. Of course, it is in fact true, I regret to say, that there are locally paid officers—I mentioned in the last debate about 2,000—and it is not known precisely how much they get and it takes time to collect this information. The figures we were working on three months ago are out of date. They were barely in date at that time, but they are even more out of date now, and it would be desirable to get much more accurate figures. Things have changed rapidly in the last year or so because other countries have come to independence. It goes back for more than a year. Annual accounts are eventually eighteen months out of date, and it is the same with these figures. There is the difficulty of getting the information from these independent territories, or at least publishing information in a Government White Paper here which purports to give information about the policies of independent territories. Therefore, in those circumstances, any White Paper on the subject of overseas pensions produced at the present time would contain serious gaps.
I come now to the most important part of my speech. Noble Lords have referred to various undertakings which were given, or which were thought to have been given in the last debate. I
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can assure your Lordships that the Department of Technical Cooperation has not been sleeping upon this matter. We had a meeting last week which I was privileged to attend with the Overseas Services Pensioners Association, and my right honourable friend the Secretary for the Department was able to make an announcement which I am now going to make. I will read it carefully and slowly because it is an offsicial announcement, and the purport of it will, I understand, appear in the OFFICIAL Report of another place to-morrow morning in the form of a Written Answer to a Question. The announcement reads as follows:
"A Working Party has been set up by the Secretary for Technical Co-operation to study the problem of increases in Colonial Service, Overseas Civil Service and Sudan Civil Service pensions, including dependants' pensions. The Working Party will examine the nature and extent of this problem and the various courses which might be adopted. It should be made clear that the setting up of this Working Party, which comprises representatives of the Overseas Departments and of the Treasury, does not presuppose any change in the policy of the British Government with regard to responsibility for overseas pensions. Work has already been put in hand to assemble the basic information necessary for this study, and it is hoped that the Working Party will submit its Report in the autumn."
I should make it clear, because I am sure the noble Earl would ask the question otherwise, that this is an inter-Departmental Report, Which, of course, would not normally be published, and this one will not be published. But Her Majesty's Government undertake to look again into the question of publishing a White Paper after consideration of the Report of this Working Party. There is no intention to conceal information on this subject, Which would in any case be made available to the Overseas Services Pensioners Association in so far as the facts are concerned, and, of course, it will be made available to the Members of both Houses in regard to the facts.
I want to be quite fair about this in respect of the feelings of the Overseas Services Pensioners Association to which the noble Earl referred in his speech. They still maintain all their reservations on this question of the moral obligations of Her Majesty's Government. That is clearly understood and I do not deny it. But they welcome the appointment of this Working Party as progress in the right direction and as a definite break

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through, because this Working Party is going to produce all the facts which the noble Earl opposite and other noble Lords are asking for, and I think it will probably produce a good many facts which have not been asked for as well; and it will be able to examine the whole question and to make its recommendations.
I do not think I can say more than that. I would simply end by saying that I believe your Lordships can be satisfied that the previous debate in this House has had its influence and that such promises and undertakings as were given have been carried out. I am sure my right honourable friend has shown his serious intention in this most difficult matter of overseas pensions, and I hope your Lordships will be satisfied with what I have had to tell you. Therefore, I would invite the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, to withdraw his Resolution. I hope he will feel that the information which has been given is satisfactory. If, however, my plea to him is unsuccessful, I must ask the House to reject this Resolution on the three grounds that I have given: first, that we are being asked for something which is incorrect and is impossible of fulfilment; secondly, that there is in existence a Working Party which will produce all the facts necessary for further information to the House, and possibly for the publication of a White Paper which in fact cannot be produced without the work of the Working Party first; and finally, that the Government have carried out their undertakings and shown their serious intentions in this matter.
LORD DERWENT: My Lords, before the noble Lord sits down, can he give any indication as to the timetable of the Working Party?
LORD HASTINGS: My Lords, I think it was in the statement. It is hoped to complete the report in the autumn.
7.27 p.m.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: My Lords, I should like to thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this debate. Again, every single speaker, apart from the Government spokesman, has taken the view that it is the responsibility of Her Majesty's Government
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to top-up the pension increases of the retired members of the Colonial Services and their dependants. This, in itself, must have been a vast encouragement to all the people whose faith has been deeply shaken by what the Government have done. I cannot say that what the noble Lord has said has given me personally any comfort. I asked for two things: first, that some financial payments should be made immediately to the hardest cases, and the noble Lord has answered that no payments will be made. I also asked him to publish a White Paper, and he has not said that a White Paper will be published. He has said that a Working Party will be appointed. But this Working Party will be within the framework of Government policy, which apparently remains completely the same: there is no change in Government policy in regard to accepting this responsibility. And, of course, the essential facts are already known; we do not need a Working Party to find them out.
LORD HASTINGS: My Lords, might I ask the noble Earl why he is asking for a White Paper if the essential facts are known? I imagine that a great many more facts than are now known will be produced by this Working Party. There was something else with which I disagree, but which I have for the moment forgotten.
THE EARL OF SWINTON: My Lords, can the Working Party recommend that Her Majesty's Government shall accept responsibility where the pensions are inadequate?
LORD HASTINGS: I read the statement. If I can find it again I will clarify the point, or see if it makes that clear. The Working Party is
"to study the problem of increases",
whatever the problem may be,
"in the Colonial Services, Overseas Civil Service and Sudan Civil Service pensions, including dependants pensions."—
that is already in and—
"the Working Party will examine the nature and extent of this problem and the various courses which might be adopted."
I think that is all-inclusive, and I see no reason to suppose that the Working Party cannot produce the facts or say what it wants to.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: On the first point that the noble Lord made, about knowledge of the facts, I would say that the facts are known to those who study them; there are a certain number of people in both Houses who have made a fairly close study. There are many other people in and out of Parliament who would like to know them and to whom they would be available if a White Paper were published.
I should be perfectly willing to withdraw my Motion if the noble Lord could say, as the noble Viscount suggested, that the Government would consider changing their present policy and accept responsibility for these payments, in the light of the recommendations made by the Working Party, and that the terms of reference would include recommendations about policy. The other condition I would suggest to the noble Lord as being a reasonable condition for the withdrawal of my Motion, is that a White Paper should be published when the Working Party has concluded its deliberations. The noble Lord said that a White Paper might be published if it were possible, but I think the least the noble Lord could offer would be an assurance on those two points.
LORD HASTINGS: In regard to the latter, I cannot go any further than to say that the Government have undertaken to consider publication; but I did say at the same time that there was no intention of concealing information. That would be made available both to Members of Parliament and to the Overseas Services Pensioners Association. What was the other point the noble Earl made?
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: That was the major point—whether the terms of reference of the Working Party included the policy of the Government, which we have been debating in this House for two days.
LORD HASTINGS: It is difficult to enlarge on an official statement, as the noble Earl knows, but I understand that an examination of the nature and extent of the problem and the various courses which might be adopted does naturally lead to a consideration of every aspect of the matter and every possibility. If the Working Party gathers all the facts
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and points out how much it would cost Her Majesty's Government if they were responsible for taking over overseas pension increases—present, future, and possibly even past—it would no doubt put all the courses before the Government, with all the pros and cons. I do not myself think that anything is excluded, but I cannot say. Specifically the Working Party is entitled to recommend a change of policy to the Government, although the facts and figures and the arguments which it produces might lead the members of the Government who peruse the report of the Working Party to come to a certain conclusion. I cannot really go further than that.
THE EARL OF SWINTON: My Lords, I am sorry to press the noble Lord on this. I think we must get one very simple thing clear. It is not as if you were appointing an outside body to make this inquiry. These people are functionaries; they are civil servants. I imagine one will come from the Treasury, one from the Foreign Office, one from the Colonial Office, and, I do not know, but there may be one from the Commonwealth Office. These are officials appointed by their Ministers to do a job. Presumably the Ministers will tell these officials what they are to do. They will not be told in terms what they are to report, but surely the Ministers will give them an instruction as to whether or not it is within their terms of reference to say that pensions should be the responsibility of the Government. I am not asking the Minister to take a responsibility for changing Government policy. All I am asking him is, what is going to be the meaning of the terms of reference of this Working Party?
LORD HASTINGS: My Lords, I am sure I am right in saying that the aim of this Working Party is not only to produce facts, but also to produce means and methods and to examine possibilities. Whether the Working Party itself, consisting of Departmental civil servants, would recommend one course or another is one thing, but what they will do is to set out the possible courses—which obviously would include the possibility of Her Majesty's Government's being responsible for pensions increases. Although they themselves might not actually recommend it,

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the whole thing would be set out for the responsible Ministers of the various Departments to decide upon. I hope that that will satisfy the noble Earl. Everything will be set out so that the final decision can be taken, and the alternative will be there clearly before the Government—not only just a set of figures and statistics, but also arguments pro and con.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: My Lords, I appreciate that the noble Lord is doing his best, but I must say I am very far from satisfied. I think it is perfectly clear that this Working Party is a body of civil servants Which is to inquire into the facts and present them so that the Ministers can take a decision on the fullest possible evidence. We know that all Governments appoint these bodies
Resolved in the affirmative, and Resolution agreed to accordingly.
when they want to look into something. It is not like an outside Commission, a body with eminent persons serving upon it, such as the Commission that went to Central Africa, containing persons who can make recommendations about policy. This Working Party would be operating within the framework of Government policy, and that is exactly what we feel must be changed if these people are to get any satisfaction. I am also disappointed that the noble Lord cannot even guarantee that, when the facts are available, they will be published. In view of that, I do not feel I can withdraw my Resolution.
On Question, Whether the said Resolution shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 21; Not-Contents, 19.

CONTENTS

Ailwyn, L.

Fortescue, E.

Silkin, L.

Albemarle, E. [Teller.]

Listowel, E.

Stratheden and Campbell, L.

Alexander of Hillsborough, V.

Longford, E.

Swinton, E.

Boyd of Merton, V.

Moyne, L.

Tweedsmuir, L.

Champion, L.

Peddie, L.

Twining, L

Colyton, L.

Sainsbury, L.

Walston, L.

Derwent, L.

Shepherd, L.[Teller.]

Williamson, L.

NOT CONTENTS

Bathurst, E.

Dundee, E.

Kilmuir, V. (L. Chancellor.)

Bossom, L.

Falmouth, V.

Lansdowne, M.

Buckinghamshire, E.

Goschen, V.

Newton, L. [Teller.]

Chesham, L.

Hailsham, V. (L. President.)

St. Aldwyn, E. [Teller.]

Colville of Culross, V.

Hastings, L.

St. Oswald, L.

Craigton, L.

Jellicoe, E.

Waldegrave, E.

Devonshire, D.

House adjourned at fourteen minutes before eight o'clock.