Sitting of 31 July 1962

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]

PRIVATE BUSINESS
LONDON COUNTY COUNCIL (GENERAL POWERS) BILL
REGENT REFINING COMPANY BILL
RIVER DART NAVIGATION BILL
Lords Amendments considered, pursuant to Order [30th July], and agreed to.
CITY OF LONDON (VARIOUS POWERS) BILL
Lords Amendment considered, pursuant to Order [30th July], and agreed to.

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  POST OFFICE

    European Countries (Transport of Mail)
    Mr. Russellasked the Postmaster-General when the European Conference of Posts and Telecommunications Administrations last considered the speed and efficiency of the transport of mails between European countries.
    The Assistant Postmaster-General (Miss Mervyn Pike): A sub-committee of the conference is currently studying the postal and allied customs procedures applied to parcel mails at post offices with a view to simplification and speedier treatment.
    For the carriage of mails between post offices, individual postal administrations use those transport services, appropriate to particular categories of mail, which offer the earliest arrival times, and they make a point of keeping the services used under constant review. The speed and efficiency of those services are pri-
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    marily the responsibility of the transport undertakings concerned, but if my hon. Friend cares to let me have details of any instance in which he thinks mail transmission times might be improved I shall be glad to look into it.
    Mr. Russell: Whilst thanking my hon. Friend for that reply, may I ask hex whether she is aware that I have already given her some examples which she is very kindly looking into? Would she not agree that the mails between this country and Italy and between this country and France are apt to be very erratic and sometimes very slow, and in view of the speed of air traffic these days, does not the whole question want looking into?
    Miss Pike: I think that the instances which my hon. Friend has cited are instances in which the other postal administrations have, perhaps, been more to blame than us. It is difficult for us to improve their services, but I can assure my hon. Friend that we are doing our best to make our own services as efficient as possible.

    Transport of Mail, Scotland
    Mr. Stodartasked the Postmaster-General how many sacks of mail were dispatched during 1961 to and from stations between Inverness and Kyle of Lochalsh and Glasgow and Mallaig, respectively.
    Miss Pike: About 220,000 between Inverness and Kyle of Lochalsh, and about 90,000 between Glasgow and Mallaig.
    Mr. Stodart: Is my hon. Friend aware of the widespread fears that exist in Scotland that these two lines may be subject to closure? Has her Department investigated any alternative methods of carrying the mail which would be as reliable as those which are being used at present?
    Miss Pike: I think that we all recognise the fears that people have about their communications, particularly in the Western Highlands. Certainly our Department keeps in very close touch with the British Transport Commission, and should anything happen alternative

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    arrangements would be made. I can only tell may hon. Friend at present that these things are all very much in the future, and all we can do is hope that we get the best solution.
    Mr. John MacLeod: Will my hon. Friend ensure that her colleagues take special note of this, because the present system is much more economic for her Department than anything that we can visualise in the near future?
    Miss Pike: I can assure my hon. Friend that when I say that we are working very closely with the British Transport Commission I mean that it is the economic handling of mails that we have in the forefront of our minds.

    North-East (Post Office Contracts)
    Mr. Shinwellasked the Postmaster-General what measures are being taken by his Department to place more orders for Post Office requirements in the County of Durham and the North-East.
    Miss Pike: My right hon. Friend is not aware that there are suitable firms in the North-East which might wish to tender for Post Office contracts but have not had an opportunity to do so. If the right hon. Gentleman has some particular firms in mind which are not already on our lists, we shall be only too glad to consider them.
    Mr. Shinwell: Is the hon. Lady aware that I am asking similar Questions of various Government Departments? In view of the Government's expressed wish to reduce unemployment in the North-East, is it not the responsibility of her right hon. Friend to ascertain whether there are suitable firms in the area, or is that responsibility to be placed on the right hon. Member to make inquiries about the whole of the County of Durham? I suggest that her right hon. Friend should make inquiries as soon as possible, because this is one way of mitigating the severity of the economic position in the North-East.
    Miss Pike: I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that we make these inquiries. But we will make further inquiries to make certain that we have not left out any suitable firms.

    Space Telecommunication Equipment
    Mr. W. R. Williamsasked the Postmaster-General whether private manufacturers, of either British or foreign origin, will be allowed to own, control or operate space telecommunication equipment in the United Kingdom.
    The Postmaster-General (Mr. Reginald Bevins): Apart from certain telegraph cables, the Post Office operates the overseas telecommunications services in this country and owns the equipment, looking to the manufacturers for its supply. I do not visualise any change in these arrangements in the satellite era. Satellites will extend the present means of international communication by cable and radio, and the use of the various media will clearly need to be integrated.
    Mr. Williams: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that I am very satisfied with his reply?

    Telstar Communication Satellite
    Mr. W. R. Williamsasked the Postmaster-General what financial contribution the British General Post Office has made to the development and launching of the Telstar communication satellite.
    Mr. Bevins: The development and launching of the Telstar satellite was entirely an American project, and was paid for by the American Telephone and Telegraph Company.
    Mr. Williams: Does that reply mean that we have no direct interest at all in this modern miraculous venture? Is not that rather surprising, in view of the fact that in all other technical telephonic developments this country has been in the forefront?
    Mr. Bevins: No, I do not think that it is surprising when we compare the relative resources of the United States and this country. This development was planned and put into operation by the American Telegraph and Telephone Company, which is a private American concern, at a capital cost of about £20 million, which is rather more than the Post Office could afford from its own

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    resources. But it does not follow from that that this country will have no stake in future developments.
    Mr. Williams: Would it be true to say that some years ago some of our leading industrialists and scientists placed before the British Government a very detailed plan of possibilities in this direction, and that they were able to prove that, with a comparatively small outlay, there could be reasonable returns of profit within a fairly short period? Why did the British Government not do something then?
    Mr. Bevins: With respect to the hon. Member, I do not think that that is so. It was certainly not the case when I first assumed my rôle as Postmaster-General. Indeed, two years ago there were widely conflicting views amongst British scientists as to the feasibility of satellite communications.
    Mr. Masonasked the Postmaster-General if he will now make a statement on the plans to use Telstar by the General Post Office during the satellite's useful life, particularly regarding future public television transmissions and telephonic experiments.
    Mr. Bevins: The object of the Telstar experiment is to gain technical knowledge, and its main use will, therefore, be for technical tests. I would not envisage anything except occasional use for television and public demonstrations once the initial phase is over. But this is a question we are about to discuss with the American Telephone and Telegraph Company, and the French Posts and Telecommunications Department.
    Mr. Mason: I am much obliged to the right hon. Gentleman for that reply. Do I understand, first, that we use Telstar rent-free from the Americans? Secondly, will this situation continue in respect of the next satellites that the Americans are about to launch into space in this series of experiments? Thirdly, in view of the fact that high rents will be demanded by the Americans from the G.P.O. if they perfect this satellite space communication system, what is our G.P.O. doing in a positive fashion, either with Europe or the Commonwealth, to develop our own satellite relay system?
    Mr. Bevins: The answer to the first two supplementary questions, is "Yes". The answer to the third one is that, so far, this country has limited its active co-operation to the construction of a ground station in Cornwall. Our scientists and engineers in the Post Office have been very active, especially during the past twelve months, working out ideas for a British satellite, but we cannot have a British satellite system unless we first have a launcher.
    Mr. Mason: The right hon. Gentleman is surely aware that only a few weeks ago we had in London a special Commonwealth conference to discuss the future of the Commonwealth effort? Has not he anything yet to reveal to the House about the extent to which we are satisfied that there can be a Commonwealth venture in this respect?
    Mr. Bevins: Following the Commonwealth conference, talks have been arranged between Canada, the United Kingdom and the American authorities, and other talks between this country, Australia and the countries of Western Europe. After these discussions have been completed we shall have a much clearer picture of the possible participation that this country can have in satellite operation.
    Mr. Brockway: Is it true that the Americans are now planning three stationary satellites on the Equator, revolving at the speed of the earth but in an opposite direction? Is it not desirable that these tremendous space experiments in communications should be under some international authority, rather than under the control of any one nation?
    Mr. Bevins: I do not think that that question arises out of the Question on the Order Paper. I can assure the hon. Member that Hear Majesty's Government are fully alive to the possibilities of satellite communications, and when it comes to an operational system we shall not be left out in the cold.
    Mr. Robert Cookeasked the Postmaster-General whether, in view of the success of the Telstar communication satellite, he has considered to what extent satellites can be used in future for international telecommunications and for television relaying; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Bevins: My hon. Friend will, I am sure, share my satisfaction at the striking success of Telstar. This is, however, only the first stage in a series of experiments with communication satellites designed to provide several hundred telephone and telegraph circuits, and a television channel. These experiments will, I hope, give the technical information which is essential for the design of a satellite communication system suitable for commercial operation.
    Telstar can be used only for relatively short periods each day, and I understand that the Americans do not plan to keep it in service for more than two years.
    Clearly, the prospects for a commercial satellite system must depend on its continuous use for international telegraph and telephone services rather than for television relaying. Many technical, operational, organisational and financial problems need to be studied before a decision is taken to establish such a system.
    Mr. Cooke: Can my right hon. Friend tell us a little more about Britain's possible share in future activities of this sort?
    Mr. Bevins: As I have already told the House, so far our participation has been limited to the ground station. But it seems almost certain now that there will be at least one system of satellite communication within the next seven to ten years in which we hope to participate. It may well be that in time there will be a second system in which, perhaps, a larger participation on our part might be justified.
    Mr. H. Hynd: Can the Postmaster-General give an assurance that future Telstar programmes will not be used, as was the case last night, for putting over blatent Conservative political propaganda?
    Mr. Speaker: Order. That supplementary question is a long way from the Question on the Order Paper.
    Mr. Mason: Is the Minister aware that the British Space Development Company presented the Government with the outline of a system of global telecommunication nearly a year ago? Can he tell the House what has happened to
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    this plan? If it has not been shelved, what encouragement has been given to the company?
    Mr. Bevins: Those proposals were discussed with the company at some length about six to nine months ago. But, of course, it is one thing to put forward proposals in this sphere. It is quite another to find the huge capital expenditure to finance them.

    New Building, Stoke-on-Trent
    Mr. Ellis Smithasked the Postmaster-General if he will make a statement on the design of the new Post Office central headquarters near the railway station at Stoke-on-Trent; what consultation and co-operation there have been with the local authorities, including the city council and British Railways; whether it is intended to include an electric conveyor system so that mail bags can be conveyed direct from the station platforms; and whether it is intended to lay out the area with turf, trees, shrubs and plants.
    Miss Pike: I am glad to say that the new building at Stoke-on-Trent will be completed in the autumn of next year. It will contain a modern public Post Office, a sorting office with a conveyer, and a postal garage and workshop. The plans were agreed with the local authority and British Railways. The site layout will preserve existing natural features as far as possible, and I am sure that the hon. Member will regard it as attractive.
    The conveyer system will not extend to the railway station, as this would not be economic.
    Mr. Ellis Smith: I appreciate that reply. Would the hon. Lady agree with me that the present method of conveying mail bags is obsolete? Would not this have provided a unique opportunity to carry out an experiment with a view to conveying the bags from the train and the platform to the Post Office?
    Miss Pike: As the hon. Gentleman knows, I took a close personal interest in this project, partly because I know it so well. I examined the conveyer system and I came to the conclusion that it would not be economic to try this sort of experiment there.

  TELEPHONE SERVICE

    New Subscribers, Amersham
    Mr. Ronald Bellasked the Postmaster-General what restriction upon the making of telephone calls he is imposing upon new subscribers to the Amersham telephone exchange; for what reason he is making it; how long he expects it to last; and what reduction in rental he is making in consequence of it.
    Miss Pike: I regret that we can only give a restricted service to new residential subscribers at Amersham because the exchange is heavily overloaded during parts of the day. Subscribers with restricted service undertake not to make calls between 9 a.m. and 11.30 a.m. on weekdays; they can receive calls at all times. Their rental is reduced by £1 a year. More switchboards are being installed in the exchange, and we hope to be able to remove the restriction early in 1963.
    Mr. Bell: Does my hon. Friend realise that, while I am grateful that this restriction is to be removed in 1963 and not at a much later date which she first gave me, nevertheless a restriction of this kind is a most regrettable one so many years after the end of the war? Can my hon. Friend explain how it becomes necessary to impose such a restriction on new subscribers and also whether they will be able to make emergency calls during this period of the morning when they cannot make ordinary calls?
    Miss Pike: The most important reason for this restriction in Amersham is the very rapid growth of population and the limitation on capital expenditure. Cables are going in as quickly as possible, and we hope to give a full service to everybody coming along. I can assure my hon. Friend that people can make emergency calls in this restricted service, and so should not have any difficulty in this respect.
    Mr. Ross: Are the people who are subject to this restriction already subject to the restriction of party lines?
    Miss Pike: I do not know how many of them are on party lines.

  WIRELESS AND TELEVISION

    Orkney and Shetland
    Mr. Grimondasked the Postmaster-General (1) when it is intended that television will be available in Shetland;
    (2) what steps are being taken to improve radio reception in Orkney and Shetland.
    Mr. Bevins: The B.B.C. hopes to open its television and V.H.F. sound station for Shetland, which I authorised in the second stage of its satellite station scheme, before the end of 1963. As the right hon. Gentleman knows, Orkney receives good sound reception from the B.B.C.'s V.H.F. sound station there. The I.T.A. has in mind the needs of these and other areas in drawing up tentative plans for completing its coverage.
    Mr. Grimond: I thank the Minister for confirming that the plans already made will stand. Do I understand that I.T.A. also has plans now for serving at least Orkney? If the Shetland station is to be completed by 1963, when may we expect the work to start?
    Mr. Bevins: I have made inquiries of I.T.A. and I know that when drawing up plans it has in mind the needs of this area. I do not think I can give a date off the cuff for the actual start of the work, but I assure the right hon. Gentleman that the Shetland station will be finished before the end of 1963.
    Mr. John MacLeod: Did the right hon. Gentleman say what area this will cover and whether a link will be supplied for the area in the Outer Isles which will serve the western seaboard of Scotland?
    Mr. Bevins: Regarding the Western Isles, the B.B.C. hopes to open the stations which I have already authorised for Lewis and Skye by the middle of 1964. Until those stations are working, and we know their effective range, it is not possible to decide whether further stations should be located in the Western Isles.
    Sir Harmar Nicholls: Does the statement in the recently issued White Paper mean that, if the rest of the channel 3

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    frequencies are handed over, all the fringe areas will be covered and not only the Western Isles?
    Mr. Bevins: I do not think I can go quite that far, but it certainly means that we shall utilise the remaining unused frequencies in band 3 to help the areas to get good reception.
    Sir Harmar Nicholls: Even the Soke of Peterborough?

  TECHNICAL CO-OPERATION

    Overseas Offiers (Salaries and Pensions)
    Mr. Longdenasked the Secretary for Technical Co-operation what steps he is taking to encourage British administrators, teachers, doctors, veterinary surgeons, engineers and agricultural officers who are now employed in the Colonial Territories to remain there if their services are required by the new Governments after independence; and how and by whom it is proposed that their salaries and subsequent pensions shall be paid and their future prospects made secure.
    The Secretary for Technical Cooperation (Mr. Dennis Vosper): These officers are employed by the overseas Governments concerned, not by the British Government, and their salaries and pensions are paid by those Governments. The British Government help in this by reimbursing under the Overseas Service Aid Scheme the cost of inducement pay and education allowances, and half the cost of passages. We also reimburse under the Scheme the cost of additional pensions arising from inducement pay and half the cost of compensation.
    Mr. Longden: Is my right hon. Friend aware that these British administrators are already drifting away much faster than they can possibly be replaced by Africans? Would not it be wiser and more generous for the Government to assume full responsibility for their salaries and pensions and thus be able to transfer them wherever their services are required and most necessary?
    Mr. Vosper: I am aware that many of these officers are doing a first-class job in overseas territories. But I cannot
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    compel overseas Governments to continue to employ them. All that I can do, and I do it, is to make the terms reasonable for them to continue serving.

    Commonwealth Advisory and Technical Service
    Mr. Longdenasked the Secretary for Technical Co-operation why a Commonwealth Advisory and Technical Service, as advocated by the Select Committee on Estimates some two years ago, has not yet been inaugurated.
    Mr. Vosper: The reasons are fully explained in the White Paper "Recruitment for Service Overseas" (Cmnd. 1740) which I published in May. This also described in detail the positive steps we are taking to organise recruitment for service abroad.
    Mr. Longden: I thank my right hon. Friend for that Answer and I shall certainly study the White Paper. Is not it time that a greater sense of urgency were put into this matter?
    Mr. Vosper: If my hon. Friend studies the White Paper I think that he will find that expressed in it.
    Mr. G. M. Thomson: Is the Minister aware that some of the difficulties in the past were due to Departmental rivalry between the Colonial Office and the Commonwealth Office but the principal difficulty was due to the parsimony of the Treasury? Now that there is a Minister jointly in charge of the Commonwealth and Colonial Offices and a former Colonial Secretary at the Treasury, will he have another look to see whether he can get the kind of Commonwealth service proposed? Is he aware that although there may be difficulty in getting individual Colonial Governments to continue the employment of people in these specialist grades, it would not be very difficult to get an alternative territory to take them on afresh?
    Mr. Vosper: The arguments against the Commonwealth service are not financial but simply that people returning from overseas service do not, generally speaking, meet the demands which I receive for people to proceed overseas, so that we prefer a short overseas service and to have a home-based service.
    Sir G. Nicholson: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the arguments adduced by the Estimates Committee still remain unanswered? Is he aware that theme is still room for some common pool to furnish these experts who are so urgently needed overseas by the newly-emergent territories?
    Mr. Vosper: I do not deny that for certain specialists there is room for a pool, and this we are trying to organise. But, as I have said, in general overseas service will, in future, be part of a home-based career.

    Commonwealth Students, United Kingdom
    Mr. G. Robertsasked the Secretary for Technical Co-operation (1) if he is aware that many Commonwealth students in the United Kingdom experience particular difficulty in obtaining work during their vacation, especially of a kind which would provide them with practical experience of the professions and callings Which they intend to follow in their own countries; and what guidance his Department gives in this matter to the students concerned, Government Departments and agencies, and industry generally;
    (2) how many Commonwealth students in the United Kingdom, following approved courses in scientific and technical subjects, are provided with practical training as part of their schemes of study; and what plans for extending such facilities for such students are under consideration by his Department.
    Mr. Vosper: About 500 of the Commonwealth students and trainees in Britain now under arrangements made by my Department, for scientific and technical courses, get practical training as part of their courses, but my responsibility is confined to those who come under arrangements made wholly or partly by my Department. Such practical training is within the terms of reference of the Council for Technical Education and Training for Overseas Countries which I recently appointed.
    The majority of Commonwealth students in Britain are not within my responsibility. They come privately or under arrangements made by their Governments or by other bodies. Where
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    appeals for assistance are received which require a general approach in obtaining facilities for practical training for such students, my Department stands ready to give such advice and assistance as it properly can, though my ability to help in such oases is necessarily limited.
    Mr. Roberts: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that two problems are involved? First, there is the need to provide opportunities for work for students generally from the Commonwealth because of the financial and social difficulty that afflicts them, especially during their long vacations When they cannot afford to return to their countries. Secondly, there is the special difficulty which affects the Commonwealth student who is here to pursue a professional course and finds grave difficulty in providing himself with practical training which is a necessary part of that course. In view of the fact that the Advisory Committee on facilities for Commonwealth trainees in British trade and industry now comes under his Department, would the right hon. Gentleman consider setting up a proper clearing house which will comprehensively assemble and manage the needs of the students on the one hand and the availability of positions for them in industry on the other?
    Mr. Vosper: I should like to examine the problems arising out of the latter part of that supplementary question. This is a matter which comes within the terms of reference to the Committee I have recently set up. I am aware that there is a shortage of practical training places for some of these students, but most of them come to this country privately. I am only too willing to help collectively with particular problems, but I cannot act as an individual clearing house for each student who comes privately and finds that he is in difficulties.
    Mr. G. M. Thomson: While paying tribute to the way in which the right hon. Gentleman looks after the 500 or so Who come under his responsibility, may I ask if he is aware that that is a small minority of the group and therefore there is a case for extending his responsibilities? Will he compare our record with the arrangement made by the West German Government and see how badly we come out of that comparison?
    Mr. Vosper: The hon. Member is quite right in saying that I am responsible for a very small proportion. The majority come privately or are sponsored by overseas Governments. If those Governments put proposals before me and seek my help, I am only too willing to consider it, but I cannot do it for individual students who come privately.

    Ex-Overseas Civil Servants (Pensions)
    Mr. Houghtonasked the Secretary for Technical Co-operation what is his present estimate of the number of ex-colonial and Sudan government British pensioners whose pensions would need to be increased to bring their total pensions up to the level of retired officers from the Home Civil Service covered by the Pensions (Increase) Acts.
    Mr. Vosper: The latest estimates are that 3,250 overseas—including Sudan— pensioners and 2,700 dependants are not receiving pension increases up to the level granted under the United Kingdom Pensions (Increase) Acts.
    Mr. Houghton: In view of the comparatively small number involved, may we hope that their interests will be taken care of in the proposed Pensions (Increase) Bill?
    Mr. Vosper: I think my right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary to the Treasury made it quite clear in his statement that that would be so.
    Mr. Glenvil Hall: Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us how much money is involved in this?
    Mr. Vosper: That is a very difficult question to answer because it varies from month to month. An estimate at present would be something under £500,000.

    Paramount Chief of Basutoland (Visit to West Germany)
    Mr. Dugdaleasked the Secretary for Technical Co-operation whether he was consulted by the Paramount Chief of Basutoland before the latter left to visit West Germany in order to discuss the possibility of financial help to Basutoland; and whether he will make a statement.
    Mr. Vosper: I was kept informed of the Paramount Chief's plans to visit West Germany, but he did not consult me. My Department is of course concerned with technical and not financial assistance.
    Mr. Dugdale: Is it not very unfortunate that at the time when we have fewer countries for which we are directly responsible there should be so little money available for this territory from the United Kingdom, and that it has to go to Germany to seek assistance? Is not this an appalling commentary on our administration of those territories for which we are responsible?
    Mr. Vosper: I said in my original Answer that I am responsible for technical but not financial assistance. I understand that the Paramount Chief was seeking the latter. My Department provides technical assistance through the Overseas Service Aid Scheme, the Directorate of Overseas Surveys and teacher training under the Commonwealth Education Scheme.
    Mr. Dugdale: Is the right hon. Gentleman saying that in fact the responsibility is that of his colleague the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations and Colonies? I have put down a Question to him to which I have no doubt he will attempt to give a satisfactory reply, but I cannot see how he will do so.
    Mr. Vosper: I am saying that the financial responsibility rests with my right hon. Friend to whom the later Question is addressed.

    United Nations Technical Assistance and Pre-Investment Programmes
    Mr. Prenticeasked the Secretary for Technical Co-operation if the Government will reconsider the level of their contribution in 1962 to United Nations technical assistance and pre-investment programmes in the light of the discussions currently taking place in the Economic and Social Council on the United Nations Development Decade.
    Mr. Vosper: I would refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply given him on 10th July by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster.
    Mr. Prentice: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that after the United

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    Nations General Assembly approved the resolution on the U.N. Development Decade it passed another resolution setting a new target of 150 million dollars for technical assistance and pre-investment programmes for 1962 and the United Kingdom voted for both resolutions? In those circumstances, how can he maintain and justify a contribution geared to the old target if the Government are to prove their sincerity in approving the whole idea of the Development Decade?
    Mr. Vosper: If the hon. Member studies those resolutions, as I am sure he has, he will see that we have pledged ourselves to review our contributions in the autumn and that we are seeking to do.
    Mr. Prentice: Not for this year?
    Mr. Vosper: Not for this year.

  LOCAL GOVERNMENT

    Public Conveniences (Turnstiles)
    Mrs. Castleasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs how many turnstiles there were in municipal public conveniences at 11th August, 1961; how many have since been removed; and how many local authorities have refused to comply with his request to remove them.
    Mrs. McLaughlinasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs how many turnstiles have been removed from municipal public conveniences since he wrote to the local authorities requesting that these should be removed as soon as possible; and how many other local authorities have plans to remove these turnstiles within the next twelve months.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Housing and Local Government (Mr. F. V. Corfield): About 670 turnstiles were in position on 11th August, 1961. Figures so far available show that 139 have been removed and five have been taken permanently out of use. Two hundred and twenty-three are to be removed this year or next by eighty local authorities. Forty-six authorities have refused to remove their
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    turnstiles and eight have removed some and retained others.
    Mrs. Castle: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that letters of protest about the continued operation of these turnstiles are still rolling in to me and since the Minister issued his circular I have received particulars of twenty-five areas where they are in operation together with those of authorities such as, for instance, Swaffham Rural District Council, which openly refuse to carry out his circular? In view of this defiance by such a large number of local authorities, will the Minister now fulfil the promise made by his predecessor and introduce legislation to make it obligatory on local authorities to take these turnstiles out without any more delay?
    Mr. Corfield: I am not, of course, familiar with the hon. Lady's mail, but I stress that the number of turnstiles to be removed is 367 which, according to my calculations, is 55 per cent. of the total and this has been achieved in under a year, the date of my right hon. Friend's circular being 11th August last year. I do not think it can be said that this is an entirely unsatisfactory state of affairs or that local authorities on the whole are proving unco-operative. So far as legislation goes, the circular reiterated my right hon. Friend's undertaking, although I cannot give any guarantee that Government time will be available.
    Mrs. Castle: As forty-six local authorities have refused to remove turnstiles, what is the Minister going to do about it? Is he to allow the recalcitrant local authorities to defy Government policy instead of keeping up with the standard of the best?
    Mr. Corfield: The hon. Lady will be aware that the date in the circular was May this year. We feel that powers of persuasion have not yet been exhausted.
    Mr. Elwyn Jones: Will the hon. Gentleman explain the distinction in his Answer between removing the turnstiles and taking them out of permanent use?
    Mr. Corfield: Perhaps the hon. and learned Member would receive more satisfaction by consulting his hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn (Mrs. Castle) on that.

    Disused Quarries and Pits
    Mr. Delargyasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs whether he will introduce legislation to compel all owners of disused quarries, sand and gravel pits, which are a danger to the public, to fence them adequately, and, wherever possible, to fill them in or tidy them up.
    Mr. Corfield: No, Sir. Local authorities already have powers under Section 151 of the Mines and Quarries Act, 1954, to require the fencing of disused workings which are in places accessible to the public; and under Section 144 of the Highways Act, 1959, to deal with sources of danger adjoining a street. Filling in would generally be impracticable, but particular sites can be dealt with by local authorities under their powers for restoring or improving the appearance of derelict land.
    Mr. Delargy: Is the Minister satisfied that this legislation goes far enough? He, or at least his Department, knows that several youngsters have been drowned in these pits recently. Is it right that people should be allowed to dig great monstrous pits and to get money out of it, and then to stroll cheerfully away, leaving them there for ever, a deadly danger to children and a blight on the landscape, leaving the land permanently unfit for normal use?
    Mr. Corfield: My right hon. Friend takes the view that these powers are generally adequate, but I emphasise that the primary responsibility is with local authorities and, as these are local matters, in my view must be with local authorities. The hon. Member referred to these works being left as a source of danger, but he is aware that it is almost universal practice, when planning permission is given, to attach suitable conditions for rehabilitation.
    Mr. M. Foot: Could not the Minister arrange to move some of these disused turnstiles to the quarries?
    Mr. Ellis Smith: Will the Minister consult his right hon. Friend with a view to considering the advisability of sending out a circular to local authorities reminding them of their responsibility in
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    order to minimise the dangers in this respect?
    Mr. Corfield: I will certainly consider that suggestion.
    Mrs. Slater: Does the Minister realise that local authorities do their best to get these private owners to fill in these pits but that they keep on resisting this proposal? If it falls back on the local authority, it becomes a very expensive job, which ought not to be the responsibility of the local authority. Will he look at that aspect of the problem?
    Mr. Corfield: Very strong powers of enforcement are available to the local authorities. I do not think that that is a limiting factor.

    Slough Borough Councillors (Dispensation to Vote)
    Mr. Brockwayasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs on what grounds seven members of the Slough Borough Council have been refused by him dispensation to vote on matters relating to housing.
    Mr. Corfield: Dispensations enabling members to vote on a matter in which they have a pecuniary interest are granted only where half or more than half the council members would otherwise be disabled from voting or where there is a possibility of the adoption of a policy to which the majority of the council are opposed.
    Neither of these conditions was fulfilled in the case to which the hon. Member refers.
    Mr. Brockway: Is it not time that the Minister reconsidered this policy? Is he aware, for example, that in Slough more than half the hocusing is on public estates and that in effect this means that on housing matters relating to those estates their representatives are disfranchised? Will he look at this matter again?
    Mr. Corfield: I am sure that the House agrees that as a general rule it is undesirable for members of local authorities or committees to vote on matters in which they have a pecuniary interest. My right hon. Friend has laid down the principles on which he will allow

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    dispensation in a circular with which I am sure the hon. Member is familiar. Dispensation to discuss is very readily given, but dispensation to vote is governed by the principles which I set forth in my original Answer.
    Mr. M. Stewart: Will the Minister ask his right hon. Friend to look at this policy again? It is not a very sensible policy as it stands. After all, if it is going to make any difference, the members are allowed to vote. Surely, provided that the public in general know that members have the interest, does it greatly matter that they vote?
    Mr. Corfield: I should not like to go into all the ramifications of that, but, as the hon. Member knows, my right hon. Friend's predecessor promised a statement on this matter. This statement is already being considered with the Law Officers, and he hopes to make it shortly.

    Building Sites (Noise)
    Mr. Delargyasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs if he will introduce legislation to control the level of noise on all building sites.
    Mr. Corfield: Any noise or vibration Which is a nuisance can be dealt with by local authorities as a statutory nuisance under Section 1 of the Noise Abatement Act, 1960. Whether further legislation is necessary to deal with noise on building sites must be considered in the light of any recommendations made by the Committee on the Problem of Noise, which I understand is examining this question among others.
    Mr. Delargy: Since this question has been selected for debate on the Summer Adjournment, I will merely ask the Minister one supplementary question: will he turn up on Friday and have better answers than that?

  HOUSING

    Association of Public Health Inspectors (Proposals)
    Mr. Frank Allaunasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs what consideration he has given to the
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    housing proposals of the Association of Public Health Inspectors, a copy of which has been sent him; and if he will consider implementing, in particular, the section dealing with the installation of baths, hot water and inside toilets in houses lacking them.
    Mr. Corfield: These proposals recommend the introduction of a statutory standard for a satisfactory house with powers to enforce the improvement of houses which fall short of the standard.
    My right hon. Friend has studied the proposals and will certainly bear them in mind. But houses vary so much in their capacity for improvement that compulsion would not be simple either to provide for or to administer. In any case it would need legislation. As far as the immediate future is concerned, my right hon. Friend intends to do everything he can to get improvements by agreement.
    Mr. Allaun: Does the Parliamentary Secretary agree that while the Leeds scheme, which I believe he has in mind, for improvement area grants is a good one, nevertheless it takes up to three years to obtain compulsory purchase orders where landlords fail to play their part and it excludes vast numbers of individual houses equally requiring improvement? Would he look again at the health inspectors' scheme?
    Mr. Corfild: We are looking at this scheme and many others. We are very anxious to see progress in this matter.

    PRIME MINISTER OF MALAYA (TALKS)
    Mr. Healeyasked the Prime Minister if he will make a statement on his talks with the Prime Minister of Malaya.
    The Prime Minister (Mr. Harold Macmillan): The talks began on 17th July and are now nearing completion. My right hon. Friend the Commonwealth Secretary hopes to be able to make a statement to the House tomorrow or on Thursday.
    Mr. Healey: While welcoming the assurance that we hope for a statement on this very important question before the House rises, may I ask the Prime

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    Minister whether it is intended at the same time to publish the Report of the Cobbald Commission?
    The Prime Minister: That is a matter for a joint decision since it is a Report to both Governments. Perhaps the hon. Member would wait for the statement.

    COMMONWEALTH PRIME MINISTERS' CONFERENCE
    Mr. Healeyasked the Prime Minister what proposals have so far been received from other Commonwealth Prime Ministers for a discussion of the problems of migration within the Commonwealth at the Conference of Commonwealth Prime Ministers.
    The Prime Minister: None, Sir.
    Mr. Healey: Can the Prime Minister assure the House that if he receives such a request either before the conference or when the conference meets, he will consider it most sympathetically, in view of the great importance of stimulating migration within the Commonwealth since our own country has restricted immigration during the last few months?
    The Prime Minister: The agenda of the Prime Ministers' Conference is a matter for their collective decision, but I will certainly bear in mind what the hon. Member said.
    Sir C. Osborne: Will the Prime Minister insist that the powers which exist and are exercised by other Commonwealth Prime Ministers will not be denied the Prime Minister of this country to control immigration into this country?
    The Prime Minister: The powers are under Statute.

    HIGH-ALTITUDE TESTS
    Mr. Dribergasked the Prime Minister if he will now make a statement on the results of the American high-altitude tests.
    The Prime Minister: Information on the effects of the high-altitude tests is being assembled and evaluated, but this process may take a considerable time. It would not be helpful for me to make
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    a statement to the House which is based on an incomplete assessment.
    Mr. Driberg: Would it be helpful if the Prime Minister could tell us now whether it is the Government's view that any one nation is entitled to make experiments whose results are unpredictable, affecting all nations, without full consultation with the scientists of other nations and their assent?
    The Prime Minister: These tests are based on Johnston Island, which is United States territory. We are, however, in close touch with them, and if it is possible I shall make a statement when the time comes as to any evaluation of their results.
    Mr. Frank Allaun: Will the Prime Minister explain to the House what is stopping an immediate agreement to end atmospheric tests, since there can be no doubt about the ability to detect these?
    The Prime Minister: What is stopping that As the Soviet Government's refusal to accept this proposal when the President and I made it.
    Mr. S. Silverman: Does the Prime Minister recall that the Lord Privy Seal a few days ago said that the Government deplored the announcement that the Soviet Union was about to engage on a new series of tests? Bearing that in mind, will he tell the House what right the Government have to deplore Soviet Union tests if they approve United States tests, and especially tests of this character?
    The Prime Minister: As the House knows, the American tests followed an unofficial but in fact complete moratorium for three years when the Russians suddenly produced their tests. That, I think, was the reason why we felt it necessary, to defend our security, to proceed.
    Mr. Lubbock: The Prime Minister said that the tests were based on Johnston Island, but they took place in space. Does space now belong to the United States?
    The Prime Minister: No, Sir. I was only meaning that this was not one of the Christmas Island arrangements which had been agreed.

    LORD JUSTICE CLERK FOR SCOTLAND
    Mr. Hoyasked the Prime Minister if he is aware that the office of Lord Justice Clerk for Scotland has now been vacant for more than three months; and when an appointment will be made.
    The Prime Minister: The Government are fully aware of the importance of filling this vacancy before the court resumes after the vacation.
    Mr. Hoy: Is not the Prime Minister aware that at the end of last year the Government asked the House for an extra judge to be appointed because of the heavy work in the Scottish courts? Why was not this appointment filled a long time ago? May we have an assurance that at least the Scottish courts will take priority over any political feeling there may be, no matter how embarrassing a by-election might be to the Government?
    The Prime Minister: I am told that the courts in Scotland resume on 2nd October. We are fully aware of the importance of filling the vacancy before that date.
    Mr. Emrys Hughes: Can the Prime Minister assure us that he is thinking not of justice in Scotland but of political expediency, because under the usual arrangement would not the Lord Advocate be promoted? This would mean an extremely awkward by-election for the Government, which they would lose.
    The Prime Minister: Although it is very common for the Law Officers to be appointed to these high posts, it is by no means a rule. I ask hon. Members to recall the office of Lord Chief Justice of England, where recently an appointment was made from the bench.
    Mr. Willis: Is the Prime Minister aware that there has had to be a rearrangement of judges in the courts in Scotland, that work in the Court of Session is being very much held up as a result of this, and that many people in Scotland are very seriously concerned at the idea that their legitimate business in the courts has to be held up for reasons of political expediency?
    The Prime Minister: No. Since I have said that the court is in vacation and does not resume its work until 2nd October and since I have said that the appointment will be made before that date, I do not think that there is anything in that supplementary question.
    Mr. Gaitskell: Can the Prime Minister tell us the reasons for the long delay here?
    The Prime Minister: These matters require careful consideration.

    EUROPEAN ECONOMIC COMMUNITY
    Mr. Warbeyasked the Prime Minister whether he will now give an assurance that, if an outline agreement on the terms of British entry into the Common Market is reached during the Summer Recess, he will not seek Parliamentary approval for it before the next Session of Parliament.
    The Prime Minister: The Government abide by their undertaking given in Parliament on 3rd August, 1961, that
    "no agreement … will be entered into until it has been approved by this House after full consultation with other Commonwealth countries …"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 3rd August, 1961; Vol. 645, c. 1651.]
    As I told the House on 12th July, the Government would not hesitate to ask for the recall of the House for any reason if it should be necessary to do so during the Summer Recess.
    Mr. Warbey: Has the Prime Minister realised that his failure to give the assurance asked for in the Question is profoundly disturbing? Is he seriously contemplating the possibility of bulldozing the provisional approval through Parliament during a short sitting in the Summer Recess? If he is not willing to have a General Election on the subject, will he at least give an assurance that Members of Parliament will have a full opportunity to consult their constituents and their party conferences before they are asked to cast a decision in the House?
    The Prime Minister: I do not quite know what the purpose of that supplementary question is. I thought that the House was rather anxious that in

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    certain circumstances it might be right to recall it. I am only saying that, if those circumstances should arise, the Government will ask for the House to be recalled. I am also repeating our pledge that no agreement will be entered into until it has been approved by the House.
    Mr. P. Williams: Is my right hon. Friend aware that there are to be further negotiations during the course of this week and that these negotiations can result either in success or failure, depending on how one interprets these words, or something in between? This being so, if there is either success or failure or something in between, what will be the position of Parliament on Tuesday of next week?
    The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend has stated with impeccable logic all the possibilities, but I think we had better see which of them happens.
    Mr. Gaitskell: Can the Prime Minister yet say whether he has decided that any provisional agreement which may be reached will be published in a White Paper before the Prime Ministers' Conference?
    The Prime Minister: I will consider that further.

    LEONARDO DA VINCI CARTOON (GRANT)
    Q.6. Mr. Wyattasked the Prime Minister why he requested the President of the Royal Academy to delay the sale of the Leonardo da Vinci cartoon; what reply he received; and what further action he now proposes.
    The Prime Minister: I asked the President of the Royal Academy to delay selling the Leonardo cartoon in order to allow time for a public appeal. This was undertaken in a public-spirited and energetic way by the National Art Collections Fund, and I should like to express our gratitude to Lord Crawford and his colleagues for what they have done. As a result of the appeal, and of the contributions made by the National Art Collections Fund, Lord Crawford informs me that they can make available £450,000 towards the £800,000 which the
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    Royal Academy is asking for the cartoon.
    The Government have been greatly impressed by the very large number of individual citizens who have contributed towards keeping this great work of art in this country. I am therefore informing Lord Crawford that, subject to the approval of Parliament, the balance of £350,000 will be found from public funds.
    Mr. Wyatt: Is the Prime Minister aware that he has made a very wrong decision? Does he not know that the country would have stumped up for the picture if it had really wanted it, that the National Gallery does not want it and never had it on its list of 160 pictures throughout the world which it would like to acquire, that adequate reproductions can perfectly well be made of it, as it is not in colour, that the Royal Academy never bothered to show it to the public for nearly 200 years, and that the art world and the general public never took the slighest interest in it? Would it not now be better for the cartoon to be auctioned where it might earn some foreign exchange from a country which might appreciate it more?
    The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman has made a large number of statements which I do not think he will expect me to controvert or to accept.
    Mr. Driberg: Or something in between.
    The Prime Minister: The situation is this, that £450,000 has been provided. I was particularly struck by the very large number of quite small subscribers who, having either seen the picture or bought its reproduction, have thought it tremendously important to keep it in this country. For my part—my colleagues have agreed with me—I think that it would be tragic if it were to leave this country. I think that it is one of the most beautiful things in the world. I believe that it is right that we should keep it here.
    Mr. John Hall: I welcome the Prime Minister's decision to recommend a grant, but on what evidence has it been assumed that the picture is in fact worth £800,000?
    The Prime Minister: The only evidence is that of those who know most about the prices that these things are likely to fetch in the market. We are told that it is likely to fetch a sum far in excess of that if it is sold by auction.
    Mr. Gaitskell: Many of us regret that the Royal Academy has decided to sell this cartoon and think that it would have done better to have accepted a Government grant. Is the Prime Minister aware that public opinion generally will nevertheless welcome the grant given by the Government to make up the purchase price?
    The Prime Minister: I am very grateful to the right hon. Gentleman. I really feel that people would be very sad if this cartoon left the country. Even in the most affluent society we should surely be allowed to turn occasionally to things of this kind and to keep them.
    Sir G. Nicholson: I echo what has been said by the Leader of the Opposition. Is my right hon. Friend aware that this action will meet with general approval, but that the background is not entirely satisfactory? Will some serious thought be given to ensuring that the public and the Government are not again faced with such a dilemma?
    The Prime Minister: With regard to the great works of art, if they are held by private owners there are the rules which are applied in connection with the granting of an export licence and all that. A great number have been acquired by the country as the result of the heavy death duties system. With regard to works of art of major importance held by public or semi-public bodies, we are considering whether the procedures are adequate and whether perhaps they ought to be thought of again as a result of this case.
    Mr. Grimond: Is the Prime Minister aware that his statement that the procedures are being reconsidered will be widely welcomed because, although we would agree with him that it might be a tragedy if this cartoon left the country, there is considerable anxiety about whether the amounts available for art in general are best expended? We should be glad of a reassurance that the provision of £350,000 for this purpose will
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    not exhaust the Government's assistance to art, particularly the living art.
    The Prime Minister: The normal contributions are made under the annual Vote to the National Gallery and other galleries.
    Mr. Speaker: Mr. Arthur Henderson, for the next Question.
    Mr. Shinwell: On a point of Order. The Prime Minister has told the House that he proposes to seek the approval of Parliament in order to find the money for this purpose. No opportunity has been afforded for ascertaining from the right hon. Gentleman when he proposes to seek the approval of Parliament. May we ascertain from the right hon. Gentleman when he proposes to do that?
    Mr. Speaker: My difficulty is this. There are large numbers of people who want to ask supplementary questions and it is not fair on other hon. Members with Questions on the Order Paper if we do not get on. I do not know whether the Prime Minister could hastily answer that one.
    The Prime Minister: The sums will be advanced from the Civil Contingencies Fund. A Supplementary Estimate will be presented to Parliament in due course to cover the transaction.
    Mr. Speaker: Mr. Sandys.
    Sir C. Osborne: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Surely, you called the right hon. and learned Member for Rowley Regis and Tipton (Mr. A. Henderson) who has a most important Question on the Order Paper. Is it possible for his Question to be answered?
    Mr. Speaker: I think that is a most attractive argument. Mr. Arthur Henderson.

    INDIA AND CHINA (FRONTIERS)
    Mr. A. Hendersonasked the Prime Minister if, with a view to raising the matter at the United Nations as a threat to peace, he will consult Mr. Nehru about the situation on the frontiers of India and China, where troops of both nations are engaged in hostilities.
    The Prime Minister: I think the means of achieving a solution to this problem can best be left to the Governments of India and China.
    Mr. Henderson: Is it not the fact that the disputed territory in question, in Ladakh, was recognised as part of India by the previous Governments of India long before independence was granted in 1947?
    The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir.
    Mr. Warbey: Does the Prime Minister appreciate that it would be more likely that the United Nations could use its good offices to secure a peaceful settlement of the Sino-India dispute if China were a member of the United Nations?
    The Prime Minister: It would, of course, be possible then for both countries to bring the matter to the United Nations, but I do not frankly think that this is a matter in which we should intervene at the present moment.
    Mr. Speaker: I think that we had better now resume our robe of regularity. Mr. Sandys.

COLONIAL DEVELOPMENT CORPORATION (CHANGE OF NAME)
The following Questions stood upon the Order Paper:
Mr. CHAPMAN: TO ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies to what extent the Colonial Development Corporation will be able to continue to invest in Jamaica and Trinidad after independence.
Sir R. ROBINSON: TO ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he will now make a statement about the operations of the Colonial Development Corporation in newly independent Commonwealth countries.
The Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations and Secretary of State for the Colonies (Mr. Duncan Sandys): With permission, I will answer Questions Nos. 62 and 70 together.
It has been decided to extend the scope of the activities of the Colonial Development Corporation which have hitherto been confined to dependent territories.
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It is proposed henceforth to authorise the Corporation to undertake new development schemes in countries in which it was previously empowered to operate after they have become independent Members of the Commonwealth.
The Corporation will be renamed the Commonwealth Development Corporation.
The necessary legislation will be introduced as soon as possible.
Sir R. Robinson: Does my right hon. Friend appreciate that what he has said will be welcomed by hon. Members on both sides who have pressed this point for a long time, and that it will be particularly appreciated in the three countries about to become independent, namely, Jamaica, Trinidad and Uganda?
Mr. Strachey: Is the Secretary of State aware that this announcement will be welcomed most heartily on this side of the House? We have pressed— indeed, nagged—the Secretary of State on this subject for some time now, and this is, indeed, a very useful extension, by far the best way in which the newly-independent members of the Commonwealth can be helped.
Mr. Turton: Would my right hon. Friend say whether Southern Rhodesia will be included?
Mr. Sandys: Southern Rhodesia, of course, is not an independent member of the Commonwealth, and is already covered by the existing arrangements.
Sir C. Osborne: While welcoming the policy, may I ask whether my right hon. Friend can say what the extent of the additional finance may be?
Mr. Sandys: There is not at present any need to consider extending the borrowing limit authorised by Parliament. In addition to Government borrowing, the Corporation now receives quite considerable sums from its own revenues, and from repayments on earlier schemes.
Mr. Biggs-Davison: Could my right hon. Friend be a little more explicit, and say by what arrangements Southern Rhodesia is covered? Will Her Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom make sure that Southern

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Rhodesia is treated at least as favourably as Yugoslavia in the matter of assistance for her development?
Mr. Sandys: I do not want to go into the wider question, but all British dependent territories—and that includes any country which is not an independent member of the Commonwealth—are eligible for assistance under the aegis of the Colonial Development Corporation. Whether or not the Corporation decides to initiate schemes in those territories is at the discretion of the Corporation.
Mr. P. Williams: Will the Secretary of State specifically say whether this covers Southern Rhodesia?
Mr. Sandys: The announcement I have made does not affect Southern Rhodesia, because Southern Rhodesia is not an independent member of the Commonwealth. The purpose of what I have announced is to extend the scope of the Colonial Development Corporation, which has been hitherto limited to Colonial Dependencies, to countries after they have achieved independence as members of the Commonwealth.
Mr. Strachey: Does not the Secretary of State agree, then, that his announcement today confirms that he has responsibility and power over such matters as the Southern Rhodesian Constitution?
Mr. Sandys: That has nothing to do with it.
Mr. Strachey: Surely, the right hon. Gentleman must agree that that is what he said—
Mr. Speaker: Order. This sounds very much like an argument.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
3.36 p.m.
The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Mr. Iain Macleod): It is proposed that after the Summer Adjournment the House should meet again on Thursday, 25th October, at eleven o'clock for Prorogation. It is expected that the new Session will be opened on Tuesday, 30th October.
The Motion will be put on the Order Paper today, and taken as the first Order tomorrow.
Mr. Gaitskell: May we assume that this is, of course, subject to the common expectation that the House may have to be recalled during September? I should like to put a specific question. Am I right in supposing that no Questions will be taken on Thursday, 25th October, since it is Prorogation day and nothing else, and that if, on the other hand, Parliament were to be recalled, Questions would be in order?
Mr. Macleod: The Leader of the Opposition is quite right. There is provision under Standing Order No. 112, and no doubt we will discuss that matter tomorrow when we take the Adjournment Motion. The position on Questions is not exactly as the right hon. Gentleman stated. It is possible to put Written Questions for 25th October, but not to have Oral Questions. In the same way, if the House were recalled for a short period—two or three days—again, Written Questions would be in order, but not Oral Questions.
Mr. G. Brown: I wonder whether the right hon. Gentleman could find some time before the House goes up— [Laughter.]—wait for it, for the debate on probation officers' salaries, which would have taken place during yesterday's sitting, but earlier in this day, but for the action of the Chief Patronage Secretary, who relapsed into his past bad form in moving the Closure. Is the Leader of the House aware that this debate would have taken place last Monday but for the Joint Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department asking my hon. Friend the Member for Leicester, North-West (Sir B. Janner) to be good enough to defer it until this week, that the Minister's request was acceded to, and the consequence was that the Chief Patronage Secretary moved the Closure, even though the Minister, courteously, was in his place ready to answer? As the House was thereby denied its opportunity to debate this very important subject, can the Leader of the House help us to get the debate now?
Mr. Macleod: I do not know whether it is in order, Mr. Speaker, to reply to those points, but I am sure that the Deputy Leader of the Opposition knows perfectly well that what happened last night was entirely in accordance with

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what has happened on a number of occasions. I have looked up all the Closures that have been moved in these circumstances, and on the two occasions on which a Socialist Government moved the Closure, on one occasion it was at midnight and, on the other, at one o'clock in the morning.
The Closure this morning was moved at 8.30—and if I may make just one more point on that—may I say that I have been carefully into this and cannot find a single Consolidated Fund (Appropriation) Bill on which as much time has been allocated as was taken by the two stages of the Bill this time.
I now take the point made by the Deputy Leader of the Opposition and acknowledge its seriousness. The Patronage Secretary had no knowledge at all of the question of probation officers when he moved the Closure. I have made it my business, because this was raised in the early hours of the morning, to inquire into the matter and I have discussed it twice with the Joint Undersecretary. The position is—
Mr. Ross: On a point of order. Since when has it become the right of the Government to allocate time for the Consolidated Fund (Appropriation) Bill? Discussion on the Bill should not be closed by any action on the part of the Government, but on the initiative and action of the Chair. It is not for the Government to allocate the time on the Bill.
Mr. Speaker: Can we keep this in order?
Several Hon. Members rose—
Mr. Speaker: I must not say things about the Closure because if I was wrong, as the servant of the House, I am subject to suitable treatment by the House. I cannot talk about that. There is no question of allocating time, either one way or the other. I think that the Leader of the House was telling us something about arrangements that have been made. It would probably be convenient for the House to hear the rest of what the right hon. Member has to say.
Mr. Macleod: I was saying, in response to the question of the Deputy-Leader of the Opposition, that I have discussed this matter twice. As I understand it, the position was that a week
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yesterday — on the 23rd — the Joint Under-Secretary suggested to the hon. Member for Leicester, North-West (Sir B. Janner) that as no developments had occurred in this particular case there was nothing that could be said at that time of any particular importance and Chat there might be developments by the next occasion for debate on the Bill, which was last night. In fact, there were no such developments in the intervening period, and, therefore, no particular added information could have been given in this case.
Miss Bacon: Is the Leader of the House aware that last week my hon. Friend the Member for Leicester, North-West (Sir B. Janner) informed me that he had been asked to postpone this matter for a week because of the Prime Minister's statement on incomes policy which was due to come last Thursday? Is the right hon. Gentleman now saying that this is of no consequence whatever? Is it not his duty to protect the nights of hon. Members? Would he not agree Chat today's business was not in any way in jeopardy? It was obvious to anyone who was in the House at the time of the Closure this morning that there would have been only four or five short speeches and that the business would have been speedily concluded.
Mr. Macleod: With respect, that simply was not the case. There were at least four or, perhaps, as many as six hon. Members who had given notice and Ministers were here on the Treasury Bench. It could have run for many, many hours. I think that by that time we had already taken 29¼ hours on the Bill and that it was entirely right for the Patronage Secretary to move the Closure. In these matters we have to consider not only our own convenience, but also that of those who serve the House.
Mr. G. Brown: Is the position not getting worse and worse? The Leader of the House has confirmed that the Joint Under-Secretary had, in fact, asked my hon. Friend the Member for Leicester, North-West (Sir B. Janner) to postpone the matter until the following week. He has then said that the Minister decided that there was nothing new to say. In that case, was it not for the Minister to say that to the House and for him to have allowed the House to

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decide? The Leader of the House then said that there were four or six hon. Members wishing to speak and that, because of that, it was right for the Patronage Secretary to have moved the Closure.
Is not this a most extraordinary argument to advance in a democratic House? If four or six hon. Members wished to speak on the Consolidated Fund (Appropriation) Bill—which is, surely, the one occasion in the year when they can do so—ought he not to have allowed the promise which the Minister made to be honoured? Since a promise was made and dishonoured, will the Leader of the House find some other occasion when we can debate this, or is he confessing that the real problem was that the Government were afraid to allow the issue of probation officers' salaries to be debated in open House?
Mr. Macleod: The right hon. Member knows perfectly well that he is on a completely wrong tack on this. On the question of there being more debates, presumably on the occasions I have mentioned—when the Socialist Government moved the Closure eight hours earlier on two occasions—there were also hon. Members waiting to speak. On the occasion in 1950 there was a Division on the Closure. There was no Division last night. I have, as I said, inquired twice into this matter and I am quite convinced that there was no promise given and that, therefore, no promise was broken.
Mr. G. Brown: On a point of order.
Mr. Speaker: It is important that I should explain what my difficulty is. All this arose out of a business statement affecting when we should "go up", I think was the phrase used, and when we should "come down". I conceive it to be perfectly in order on that to say, "Very well, if we go up now, when can we discuss topic X?". I follow that part of it. What I do not think is in order, and I hope that the House will forgive me, because I am involved in this personally, is the propriety or impropriety of the Closure at some terrible hour this morning. I hope that the House will help me in this matter.
Mr. Fell: Can my right hon. Friend help me on a different topic, though per-
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haps not a happier one? On Monday of this week we had what can only be described, perhaps in the most eulogistic terms, as a standstill statement on the Common Market from the Lord Privy Seal. Tomorrow we shall have a debate on this matter, but, of course, no more statements because his negotiations start again on Wednesday and, I understand, will go on until Saturday.
Would my right hon. Friend consider —and I am not asking for him to give an on-the-spot answer to this question— whether, if there is an important advance or a wall or retreat arrived at by Saturday, he will at least recall the House for a statement to be made? This is far more important than holidays. Can there be a possibility of my right hon. Friend recalling the House on a matter of such urgence for a statement to be made by the Lord Privy Seal some time next week?
Mr. Macleod: The Lord Privy Seal has been reporting regularly to the House on the Brussels negotiations and at the end of this particular round there will be a progress report. In accordance with a question which the Leader of the Opposition asked some time ago, we would, if the House so desires, make that available also in the terms of a White Paper.
On the question of recalling the House, I would not like to go further than I have already done in saying that Standing Order No. 112 is, of course, available.
Mr. Speaker: Mr. Sydney Silverman.
Several Hon. Members rose—
Mr. Speaker: I do not know how we are progressing, but I did call the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. Silverman).
Mr. S. Silverman: On the same subject, the Common Market, can the Leader of the House clarify the situation a little? I am not sure that I understood him. Are we to understand from his original announcement that the Government contemplate, at least as a possibility, that the House might be recalled in the middle of the Long Recess in order to approve or disapprove of a change with regard to the Treaty of Rome which would basically alter the

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whole constitution of this country and the functions of the House of Commons?
Do we also understand that at the end of such a debate the House would then be content to be dismissed to resume its holidays and not to return until the Prorogation date so that the matter could not be further discussed for another three weeks? Is that the situation?
Mr. Macleod: I did not say that. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister dealt with this point a few moments ago. All I am saying—and this is common knowledge and implicit, and, indeed, explicit in what the Leader of the Opposition said a few moments ago on my business statement—is that there is clearly a possibility of recall. In what circumstances this would happen we do not at present know, nor can we foresee. It is possible for the House to be recalled and I reminded hon. Members of the standing Order by which that could be done. I said nothing more than that.
Several Hon. Members rose—
Mr. Speaker: I was about to do that which everyone would advise the occupant of the Chair never to do and to ask in advance for the forgiveness of the House. Would hon. Members accept the suggestion that much of this business matter might very properly and accurately be discussed on the Motion for the Adjournment when we get to it? I venture to say this because I cannot help
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knowing that a large number of hon. Members wish to speak in the ensuing debate.
Mr. Shinwell: In view of the Prime Minister's statement about the Civil Contingencies Fund, may I ask the Leader of the House whether his right hon. Friend proposes to submit the Supplementary Estimate to the House this week? If not, and if it is to come after the Prorogation, can we be assured that the amount of £350,000 will not be expended before the authority of the House has been obtained? What is the position as regards the Civil Contingencies Fund?
Mr. Macleod: I shall have to look into that point. It certainly would not be proposed to bring any Motion before the House relating to it.
Mr. Shinwell: Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman could give me a little clearer answer. I should like to know whether the money which is intended to be expended under the Civil Contingencies Fund will be expended before the Supplementary Estimate comes before the House, and on whose authority the money will be spent?
Mr. Macleod: As I said, I should like to look into that. If the right hon. Gentleman would like to put this question to me tomorrow when we debate the Motion for the Summer Adjournment I will give him a full answer then, having spoken to the Chief Secretary.

SETTLED LAND ACT, 1925 (AMENDMENT)
3.51 p.m.
Mr. Donald Box: I beg to move,
That leave be given to bring in a Bill—
Mr. Speaker: Order. I am so sorry. There is another statement to be made by the Leader of the House.
Mr. Macleod: Mr. Speaker, this statement which relates to the gift of a Chair to the Nigerian House of Representatives is being made tomorrow and not today.
Mr. Speaker: I am not sure how one unapologises, but I unapologise.
Mr. Box: I beg to move,
That leave be given to bring in a Bill to amend section forty-one of the Settled Land Act, 1925, by extending the term by which a tenant for life may lease settled land under paragraph (iv) of that section.
My proposed Bill proposes a simple but, I think, none the less important amendment to the Settled Land Act, 1925, dealing with the powers of trustees for settlement holding ground leases in trust for a life tenant.
I am conscious that the debate which is to follow is an important one, and I will, therefore, keep my remarks brief and will not detain the House for more than two or three minutes. At present, the Settled Land Act, 1925, limits the powers of trustees when they are renewing or extending the lease in trust to a maximum of fifty years. The Bill simply proposes that this term of fifty years should be extended to ninety-nine years. I appreciate that to extend the powers of trustees in this way could be described as a very mild measure of leasehold reform in that it would allow longer leases to be granted in the future.
The Bill may be considered appropriate at this time as it is believed that the whole question of the leasehold system is under review by the Government at present. My right hon. Friend the former Minister of Housing and Local Government said recently, in reply to a question, that the Government are re-examining the problems in relation to renewal of ground leases on the basis of current market value. The amending
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legislation covered by the Bill would, I think, bring the Settled Land Act more in line with contemporary trustee law and, at the same time, would seem to blend with any proposed legislation that the Government may have in mind.
Hon. Members who are familiar with the leasehold system will be aware that the normally accepted period is ninety-nine years. This custom was established many years ago and it has been maintained ever since. I suggest, therefore, that if a time limit at all is necessary it should be ninety-nine and not fifty years. This seems to me entirely consistent with the wider powers granted to trustees in the Act of last year, but at the same time, it would, of course, not interfere with the rights of trustees to renew leases for a lesser period if they thought that was desirable.
I maintain that the Settled Land Act, in its present form, is a deterrent to the improvement of leasehold property and seems to bear heavily on leaseholders. I also suggest that it bears heavily on those trustees and life tenants who may be willing to grant a new lease for a longer period. Bearing in mind that the Trustees Act, 1961, gave trustees the right to invest half their funds in a wide range of ordinary shares, and bearing in mind that the Settled Land Act in its present form permits the sale of ground leases in trust, I submit that to extend the maximum period from fifty years to ninety-nine years, as the Bill would propose, is fair and reasonable.
3.58 p.m.
Mr. Dudley Williams: I protest at this Motion being introduced to the House at this late stage in the Session. I suggest that to my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, North (Mr. Box) that there is no hope whatever of the Bill becoming law this Session and that he should not seek to bring it in under the Ten Minute Rules procedure when its only hope of passing through the House is if it is completely unopposed.
For all I know, the Bill may involve very serious alterations in the law. It is an affront to the House of Commons that legislation should be brought forward in this way, when it has no chance of being properly examined. I hope, therefore, that the House will not give permission for the Bill to be introduced.
Question put, pursuant to Standing Order No. 12 {Motions for leave to bring in Bills and nomination of Select Committees at commencement of Public Business):—
The House proceeded to a Division—
Mr. DONALD BOX and Mr. FERGUS MONTGOMERY were appointed tellers for the Ayes, but no Member being willing to act as Teller for the Noes, Mr. SPEAKER declared that the Ayes had it.
Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. Box, Mr. Graham Page, Mr. Gowar, Mr. W. G. Morgan, Mr. G. Thomas, Mr. Bullard, Mr. W. Clark, Mr. Coulson, Mr. Hocking, and Mr. Percival.
SETTLED LAND ACT, 1925 (AMENDMENT)
Bill to amend section forty-one of the Settled Land Act, 1925, by extending the term by which a tenant for life may lease settled land under paragraph (iv) of that section, presented accordingly and read the First time; to be read a Second time Tomorrow and to be printed. [Bill 140.]

COMMITTEE ON BROADCASTING (REPORT)
4.0 p.m.
The Postmaster-General (Mr. Reginald Bevins): I beg to move,
That this House takes note of the Memorandum on the Report of the Committee on Broadcasting, 1960 (Command Paper No. 1770).
As the responsible Minister, I must give expression this afternoon to the Government's views on this wide and important subject, but I undertake not to waste words because I know that many right hon. and hon. Members on both sides of the House wish to take part in the debate and that the Government, for their part, are most anxious to be in a position to take the general sense of the House on the whole complex of these issues.
When I went to the Post Office, rather more than two years ago, little did I think that most of my time would now be absorbed by Telstar and television. Although it goes very much against the grain with me, I have been forced to understand these somewhat technical subjects. I make another small confession. On those occasions when I have
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stood at this Box answering questions about television, I have often felt slightly uncomfortable because, of course, a Postmaster-General has divided loyalties, first, and most important, a loyalty to Parliament and to the general public and, secondly, a loyalty to the broadcasting organisations as such.
Like many hon. Members on both sides, I have always been aware of both the achievements and the faults of British television, but I am always rather unhappy when people tend to fault individual programmes, as they sometimes do, so censoriously as though they are speaking for the whole population when, very often, they are speaking only for themselves. Some time ago, I asked my advisers to prepare for me a schedule of complaints received against the television world. It was really rather funny. There were criticisms of the news, of "Panorama", of light theatre, of Westerns, of boxing and of drama. There were criticisms of crime and of quiz games.
There were complaints by womenfolk of too much sport and complaints by the men of not enough sport. There were criticisms that people or characters like Maigret consume too much calvados and that almost everyone on television smokes far too much. Let us be frank about it. If one were a censor and one accepted all these criticisms, the television screen would be one continuous and glorious blank.
We have had the Report of the Committee on Broadcasting. Both the Government and Parliament are grateful to Sir Harry Pilkington and to all the members who served with him on that Committee for the truly enormous pains which they took in the preparation of their Report. I am personally very grateful to all the members of the Committee without exception. I have met all these ladies and gentleman and I greatly admire them for their hard work and sincere endeavours in what admittedly is a very difficult field.
I have heard it said that the Committee was composed wholly of "highly academic" ladies and gentlemen, which is meant to be a disparagement of the Committee. This, of course, is wholly untrue. I believe it to be right, when we are dealing with the questions which affect the whole population, that

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a Committee should be drawn from many and varied walks of life, as this Committee was. As I say, I applaud them for their work, although I do not accept all their conclusions.
As one would expect, reactions to the Report have been very varied. It has been fiercely criticised by some and fervidly supported by others. There are Chose who dislike the tone of the Report. There are those who feel that the philosophy which underlies it is slightly authoritarian. There are those Who dislike what they construe as being the almost unqualified praise of the British Broadcasting Corporation and the almost unqualified condemnation of independent television. In this last respect, I am bound to say—and I say it in sorrow—that I consider that the Report is lacking in balance.
There are others who, whether they accept the Report or not, are nevertheless prepared to go quite a long way with the Committee in feeling that television must have at least some influence on values and on standards, especially among young people, and who feel, therefore, that the Government and the broadcasting authorities ought to take a more positive and, if one likes, an even more paternalistic, attitude to the world of television especially in mattes of programme balance, violence and triviality.
As the House knows already, the Government are about to discuss the question of violence and triviality with the two broadcasting organisations. I assure right hon. and hon. Members that these discussions will be pressed ahead immediately after the termination of this debate. These talks will not go forward in any spirit of recrimination between the Government and the broadcasting organisations—of course not—but with a determination on the part of all concerned to work out better programme standards.
I emphasise with all the force I can command that the Government have not been influenced in any of these matters by any pressures or lobbies, whatever their nature, nor shall we be in taking future decisions. We may disagree with Her Majesty's Opposition here and there, though I am glad to think that there is, perhaps, rather more convergence
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between the two sides of the House in 1962 than there was some years ago, but we on this side—I do not say this in the least priggishly—are just as much concerned to do what is right as hon. Members of the Opposition.
I come now to the White Paper which we have issued with, shall I say, reasonable promptitude. I express my personal appreciation of the help which I have enjoyed from my fellow Ministers and, in particular, the help of my right hon. Friend the First Secretary. The White Paper refers to many of the Pilkington recommendations with which the Government are in broad agreement. I have no wish to weary the House with all the details. Most of these proposals are not violently controversial, and I shall assume that most hon. Members have read the White Paper.
But the most important of the proposals in the White Paper refer to the change in line definition and the use of the ultra high frequency bands; additional viewing hours for adult education; self-contained television services for Scotland and Wales; a second B.B.C. service; certain colour programmes on 625 lines; and an ultimate pattern of six television services.
I should not like the House to assume that all these have been easy decisions, although, as I say, most of them are non-controversial, because many of them have quite important financial, economic and social implications. These proposals, even as they stand, will lead to a vast improvement in the television service enjoyed by many people in England and, perhaps more particularly, in the Principality and in Scotland. They will help the radio industry, and they should give the radio industry and the broadcasting organisations opportunities which very largely they have so far lacked to export components and television sets and also more easily to exchange programmes with Western European countries.
Hon. Members may say, "This is all very fine, but how will it be paid for?" The Pilkington Committee suggested that the additional B.B.C. service and certain other developments which it recommended should be paid for by increasing the licence fee on the principle, ofcourse, that the Corporation's services ought to be financed entirely out of licence revenue. A licence fee of £6 was suggested,

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and I believe that the B.B.C. agreed with that view. The B.B.C. feels that the licence fee is the Corporation's and that any other system of financing sup-pert would involve its coming, as it were, cap in hand to the Government for additional moneys and that its independence, perhaps more in the financial sense than in any other respect, might be at risk.
I respect that point of view, and it is certainly one to which the Government will have the most careful regard, although I do not wholly accept it at the moment. But I must emphasise at this stage that the Government have as yet come to no decision on this question. It is perfectly true, as the Committee pointed out, that the licence fee is a good deal cheaper than it is in most other countries. But is that necessarily a good reason for increasing it? I do not think that it is.
The White Paper leaves in abeyance for the time being, and not, I hope, for very long, difficult issues such as local sound radio, pay television and, of course, the future structure of independent television, to which I should like to address myself in a few moments. Here, I wish to interpose one or two general comments on television as a whole, and I hope that the House will not feel that I am pontificating. After all, principles are important here and I think that we ought to get them right.
I think it is true to say that, among all the media of entertainment and instruction, television is unique. It is far more pervasive than any other medium of entertainment or instruction. Almost everyone watches it except those people who dogmatise about it. Yet its range and diversity are limited by technical considerations, and in that respect it is quite unlike the theatre, the cinema or the world of literature. It is also unlike the Press.
I suppose that there are now fewer than a dozen national newspapers and about 50 provincials. Despite all the talk about take-overs and mergers, it is still true, in theory anyway, that anyone can start a newspaper, just as anyone can dine at the Ritz. But a television programme cannot be started unless the Government are prepared to provide a
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channel, and the number of channels is limited by technical considerations.
At this moment, we cannot have more that four television programmes. By the 1970s we cannot have more than six, short of additional wire services, and six is the lot. It therefore follows that we cannot have unlimited competition in television, and I believe it follows that, since the number of channels is limited, the Government have a far greater responsibility to see that those channels are responsibly used than in any other sphere.
The Daily Telegraph recently said that
"the arguments for exercising a greater control over television than over the printed word and other forms of entertainment cannot be merely shrugged aside".
and I believe that, in principle, that is right. I do not think that the Government can abdicate their responsibility for a medium which, in a visual form, enters our homes and must at least have some influence on the young and the adolescent. In my judgment, we cannot avoid some element of positive guidance towards television provided it is limited and certainly provided it is not detailed.
This leads to the question: what do the people want of television? They are the important consideration. Of course, we all want different things, and what we want one day we do not want the next. One or two of my more intellectual colleagues on the Treasury Bench are hopelessly "sold" on cowboys and Westerns. I suspect that the only thing that they dislike about them is the monotonous triumph of virtue. Incidentally, I saw in last Sunday's Observer that Mr. Richard Hoggart, who has been blamed, probably quite wrongly, for the more colourful adjectives in the Pilking-ton Report, seems to be a great fan of "Coronation Street"; as is the generality of people.
All we know from the polls is that, while the majority of our fellow citizens prefer to watch independent television rather than the B.B.C, they nevertheless think that the B.B.C. is better. No matter how people may differ, what we want is good television, whatever may be the type of programme. The public wants programmes which capture and sustain their interest, whether they be escapist or informative.

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How are we as a Government to meet these diversified demands? Here, we come to the question of principle on which I am not prepared to compromise; I say at once, through a wider choice of programme—not a choice, as so often happens at present, between "Z Cars" on one channel and "No Hiding Place" on another, but a genuine choice between programmes of entertainment and programmes which cater for smaller groups of the population, the choice which one has in a bookshop between Dostoievsky and Ibsen at one end and Peter Cheyney and Ruby M. Ayres at the other—a genuine choice and genuine competition. I therefore believe that we must have more effective competition, and this is fundamental to the whole thinking of Her Majesty's Government.
I took no part in the debates on the Television Act, 1954, yet I believe that the Government were right at that time to introduce independent television. I believe that the effect on television has been stimulating and enlivening. I believe that the B.B.C. itself feels that this is so, and so, indeed, I see, does Lord Beveridge himself.
We are now taking another look at independent television, the future of which is the main question which faces the House this afternoon. I therefore come to what I think we all regard as the principal recommendation of the Pilkington Committee, notably that the I.T.A. ought to plan the programming and sell the advertising time, that the companies should sell programmes to the I.T.A. for inclusion in those planned by the Authority and that the I.T.A., in turn, should pay any surplus revenue to the Exchequer.
The case for these proposals is most eloquently argued in the Committee's Report. The heart of the case is that in the Committee's view, it is not possible to reconcile the commercial itch of the programme companies earning their money from advertising with the production of good television. That, I think, fairly summarises the Pilkington point of view. Incidentally, the Committee believes, also, that its proposal would transfer effective power to the I.T.A. and that it would promote competition between the companies with improved standards and would prevent the earning of excess profits.
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I say this in complete sincerity. If I felt, and if my colleagues in the Government sincerely felt, that those proposals constituted the right answer we should not hesitate to support them to the hilt and to recommend them to Parliament. Indeed, it would be unpardonable to rush into decisions on a matter of this importance without weighing with the utmost care whether these proposals in the Report are workable, whether they would produce the results that the Committee expected or whether there are other and, perhaps, more effective ways of getting the results that hon. Members, on both sides, wish. This has been exercising the minds of many of my right hon. and hon. Friends and I gather from what I read in the newspapers that it has also been exercising the minds of some hon. Members on the Opposition benches.
Reduced to their simplest terms, the Committee's proposals would convert the I.T.A. into a kind of B.B.C., but also making the I.T.A. the recipient of advertising revenues. In one sense, it would emasculate the programme companies and convert them into programme producers alone. This raises a host of practical questions and I beg hon. Members, on both sides, to face these questions squarely and realistically.
In the first place, what interest would the Independent Television Authority have in the earning of advertising revenue? The I.T.A. is not a commercial organisation: it is a public organisation. What assurance is there that the existing programme companies would remain in the field at all under conditions of this kind or, for that matter, that any new companies would enter the arena? Some hon. Members opposite may say, "What does that matter?" My reply is that to millions of people throughout the country it matters a great deal. In any event, I am certainly not prepared to run the risk of destroying independent television.
But what of the public? Here, we have a situation in which the B.B.C. would be transmitting two programmes, and I think it right that the B.B.C. should have two networks. So do the public. At one time, one programme will be light and another relatively serious, informative or instructive. That would be the general pattern of the B.B.C.'s services.

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The I.T.A. and the programme companies would be in competition with Chose two B.B.C. programmes and we have to ask ourselves what they would do. Would they seek to compete with the relatively serious programme? It seems to me inevitable that especially during peak viewing hours, the tendency would be—I emphasise this—even more strongly than under the existing structure of independent television, for the companies to compete more and more exclusively with the B.B.C. light programme.
Hon. Members may ask, "Why not?" but let us consider what this means. It means that the I.T.A. and the programme companies would be seeking to beat the B.B.C. for mass audiences in popular entertainment, and they might will succeed even to a greater degree than they do now, but at what cost in terms of money and at what cost in terms of standards?
How, for example, would the I.T.A. pay for the programmes produced by the companies? The I.T.A. could not put the programmes out to competitive tender—that is manifestly absurd in the world of television. One cannot put out a specification for a television programme. One could not have two companies competing for the same programme.
What is the alternative? On a cost-plus basis, as hon. Members on both sides know only too well, that would lead to production of the most lavish and financially extravagant programmes. One has to consider this against the background that the I.T.A. as reconstituted according to the Pilkington Report might well have money to burn. My fear is that we might well end up with the lowest common denominator in programmes produced at much greater prices than programmes are now produced.
Having said that, no one supposes that there are not serious shortcomings in the structure of independent television—of course there are—and the Government would not attempt to deny it. We are told that the profits of the companies are excessive. We are told that the dominance of the big four network companies ought to be broken. Let me take, first, what is commonly referred to in the
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Press as the excessive profits. It is not really a question of excessive profits at all. Basically, this is a question of requiring the companies, whoever they may be, to pay the right rentals for the franchises that they enjoy from the Government.
There can be no question whatever of the Government acting vindictively against the programme companies. In their early days, they took great risks and some people burned their fingers in commercial television. I do not subscribe to the prejudiced view that they are in some way anti-social organisations that should be rehabilitated and tamed. The question of rentals is commercial and not political. We have to ask ourselves, as the House of Commons how this can be put right.
At one time, many people were disposed to say that the Government ought to throw the contracts open to competition and that the I.T.A. should secure the highest rental that the market would bear. That, I think, was the view expressed by the Public Accounts Committee about two and a half years ago. The matter is, however, complicated by the fact that there are already some well-established commercial companies already on the ground, and it may be further complicated by the possibility that by 1964 there may be room for a second group of companies.
In those circumstances, I put it to the House that it would be exceedingly difficult for any person, no matter how commercially minded, to judge what a fair market rental would be. I do not believe that that is a practicable method of approach. It may well be that a more realistic way would be for a succcessful company to reimburse the I.T.A. in the first place for the I.T.A.'s costs, which are not very substantial—and that would be a relatively unimportant element in the rental; and secondly, to pay a reasonable percentage of its gross profits before taxation to the I.T.A., not as a profits tax, but as a second element in the rental.
That, I think, would be fair, and would be seen to be fair by public opinion. This and other ideas the Government are examining in detail, and in due course we shall inform the House of our final conclusion.
Mr. Frank Allaun: Would the right hon. Gentleman explain to the House what the I.T.A will do with the surpluses it gathers from the contracting companies?
Mr. Bevins: The position would be as now, except to the extent that the I.T.A., as it clearly would, would receive larger income than it does at present. That money would be in the first place with the I.T.A. and then, of course, there is provision in the existing Television Act, for the Treasury, in consultation with the Postmaster-General, to appropriate as much of that money as they so decide. That position, of course, clearly would continue.
Sir Harmar Nicholls: The proposition which the Postmaster-General has just put would, I think, be fair if the position remained exactly as it is now, with the question of rents taking into account profits, but would he keep in mind that the expense of developing a second television service which the White Paper anticipates, would be on the Independent Television Authority? There would be expense involved there, and to pay profits in extra rents for the development of the new service might not be as fair as his words at first seemed to indicate.
Mr. Bevins: I understand what my hon. Friend has in mind. It is quite true that if the new companies entered the field they would probably have to have greater capital investment than those already on the ground, but, at the same time, I think that my hon. Friend ought to bear in mind that this would be related to the actual gross profits which the companies earned. That is an important point.
I was about to say a word about the network which, after all, is very important. The present system, as the Pilkington Committee very rightly pointed out, has a serious weakness. What it does is virtually to carve up the market between the four major companies and to keep competition at bay. There have been suggestions that if the Independent Television Authority itself were to undertake the control of networking it could not only infuse the system with genuine competition but it could, at the same time, take a more positive attitude towards programme balance and programme standards.
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The Authority might conceivably do this by writing into each contract the number of hours any one company would have over the national network each week, keeping, as it were, up its sleeve a certain number of hours to be awarded to the companies showing themselves capable of producing the best television on the basis of experience; or it might alternatively—the Authority I am speaking of—give no guarantee at all of assured hours over the network and in that way introduce free competition all the way along the line.
But, of course, there are other people who quarrel with this particular approach, people who argue that we cannot get good television if those who plan the programmes even in the broadest sense are divorced from those who actually produce them. I wonder myself whether this is really so. I myself hesitate to accept this argument, but it does seem to me that the alternatives here really lie between the Authority controlling networking and also broad programme balance, or the Authority simply laying down the broad programme balance and, of course, seeing that that balance is observed.
I confess quite freely to the House that that is a difficult subject, and one which has to be looked at with both realism and imagination. Because of that the Government have not been precipitate in coming to an early decision, and it is because of that, very largely, that I welcome the debate in the House today, because I shall value very much the views of right hon. and hon. Gentlemen.
Meanwhile, we simply must get the structure of independent television right before we finally decide whether or not to give independent television an additional programme. I am sure that is right. I realise, of course, that hon. Members opposite are, in the main, opposed to a second independent channel, and I shall look forward to hearing the views of hon. Members opposite on this. In particular, if I may say so, I hope that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Smethwick (Mr. Gordon Walker), when he follows me, as I believe he will, will have something to say on the fascinating question of how he sees a single independent channel competing with two B.B.C. channels.

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Now I turn to one or two questions on which I shall not detain the House for more than a few moments. The first is pay television or subscription television. As the House knows, the Pilkington Committee came down firmly against this idea on grounds which, as we made clear in the White Paper, the Government do not find altogether convincing. Certainly, it hardly seems feasible to set aside one of our scarce frequencies for the purpose of pay television, but, having said that, we do believe that there are arguments for pay television provided by wire as an additional service, and we are, therefore, giving further thought to the possibility of experiments.
We must not, at this stage, be afraid of innovations no matter how un-respectable they appear to be in some quarters. We shall, of course, bear in mind the views of those who oppose subscription television, and, in particular, the view that it would be unfair to the generality of viewers if wired television were to deprive the B.B.C. or the I.T.A. of programmes which they normally put out at the present time.
I think that we must accept that the scope of any experiment over wire would be severely limited, certainly in the early stages, and it might, therefore, be difficult to discover whether there is a general demand for subscription television. However, as I say, we shall listen carefully to what is said in the course of this debate, and we shall then decide whether or not to authorise an experiment. If, in the result, there proved to be considerable scope for this, then we should have to consider the creation of some permanent body to guide it.
Finally, I come to local sound broadcasting. Here, of course, the Pilkington Committee recommended that there should be a sustained and broadly based trial of local sound carried out by the B.B.C. I am quite sure that the B.B.C. could create the facilities to carry out such an experiment, but if local sound undertaken by the B.B.C. were to become a permanency then we should have to find more money for this purpose.
Those who advocate local sound radio on a commercial basis argue that if it was right to break the B.B.C.'s monopoly
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of television then it is equally right to break it in sound, but there is surely a distinction between television and sound. Television is a much more potent medium, which is still expanding, whereas sound broadcasting, which gained immensely in significance during the war years, has certainly a useful but a limited part to play in the field of broadcasting as a whole.
Moreover, we have to remember that already we have three national sound programmes, and that nearly all listeners can hear at least one foreign station as well as the B.B.C. services. So, clearly, the monopoly which the B.B.C. has in the field of sound radio is by no means of the same nature as the Corporation's original monopoly in television. However, we have not closed our minds on this question either one way or the other, and again, we shall look forward to hearing the views of hon. Members on both sides of the House.
I should like to add this. The important thing here is that we should get our principles right. I say that the first thing we require is more effective and genuine competition, greater selectivity for the viewing public, and I should not myself shrink from a limited element of paternalism in this. I believe that the public is right and that the Government are right. Primarily, of course, television is, and I suppose will always remain, a medium for entertainment, but the potentiality of television will not be perpetually limited to entertainment and the like. It should and must be used for experiment and for innovation, to widen our horizons, and, as the years pass, more and more to project our standards and our values to lands beyond these shores.
4.31 p.m.
Mr. Gordon Walker: The right hon. Gentleman has made a very thoughtful speech, and has raised a lot of points which we will have to think about, some of which I will take up, and with some of which I do not agree, as I shall explain as I go along. I do not make any complaint that the right hon. Gentleman has not made up his mind on some of the very big issues. It is right that we should take time to decide these things, and a debate like this at this moment can be of extreme

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value because it enables many different views and interests to be expressed.
The Pilkington Report was subjected to extremely unfair and prejudiced attacks by papers and persons most of whom had a very considerable commercial interest in attacking it. I am sorry that the right hon. Gentleman did not defend the Committee, which he himself appointed, a little more strongly against these unfair attacks. I am not one to swallow the Pilkington Report whole. I think it has faults of logic, and some of its conclusions do not go far enough —I should like to go further—but it seems to me to be a document of very great social and political importance, and certainly broadcasting will never be the same after Pilkington as it was before. Indeed, the Pilkington Committee and its Report have already had one very great success, namely, the production of the Government's White Paper. The right hon. Gentleman said that it has not been easy to reach some of these conclusions, and that I can well believe. I cannot conceive the Government, on their own, without the Pilkington Report, so quickly reaching decisions of great importance—to give a third programme to the B.B.C., and to end advertising magazines.
These parts of the White Paper we welcome, and we are also glad of the decision for separate television programmes for Scotland and Wales and the decision to go in for 625 lines and to begin with colour, all of which seem to us to be wise and sensible proposals.
I go a good deal further than the White Paper, and make a rather different approach from it to some of the basic problems facing us in this field. I start by accepting what the Pilkington Report says in paragraph 207 that I.T.V.—
"… falls well short of what a good public service of broadcasting should be."
I also accept that I.T.V. has been a main, though I say at once not the sole, cause of this excessive violence and triviality in the programmes which has aroused a very great deal of public concern and disquiet. I am not one of those who thinks that it is necessary, or indeed, on the evidence, possible, to say that I.T.V. is wholly bad. I do not think that is necessary in order to attack it— as I do. It has produced some genuinely good popular entertainment and I do
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not think it is right to say that mass-audience shows must be bad shows. What is wrong is going for mass-audience programmes, particularly at peak hours, as one's sole and primary motive.
I think that competition has done some good. The Pilkington Report endorses a remark of importance by the B.B.C. in paragraph 145:
"In light entertainment in particular, competition had, the B.B.C. believed, done something to sharpen and improve their own programmes."
I think that is certainly so. I think that I.T.N. has tended to produce a rather better production of news. But, of course, it is hard to make these comparisons because, one cannot imagine that the B.B.C. would have stood still without I.T.V. It would have been making improvements on its own.
There is an advantage in not having a monopoly employer of the artists, the actors, the script writers and the broadcasters, like Members of Parliament, who try to get on these various media.
None the less, in spite of this, we should give credit where it is properly due, but it seems to me that the I.T.V. has done little to mitigate the broad picture painted by the Pilkington Report, and, if anyone has any doubt whether or not, on the whole, the introduction of commercial television has lowered our standards, they ought to ask themselves two questions. First, what would have happened if the B.B.C. had gone all out for TAM-ratings as I.T.V. did? It could have done it and would certainly have got ahead with its big resources and staff. We would have been in a far worse position. The whole thing would have been worse if we had had only I.T.V. and not B.B.C. I do not think that anyone could say that they did not thank Heaven that neither of these two things had happened, and that is the proof that I.T.V. has not, on balance, at all improved our television.
It has tended to lower standards. The Pilkington Report justifies the criticisms of the original Act, about which I made some criticisms, as did Lord Hailsham, and I think that the criticisms of both of us are very well borne out by the Pilkington Report. I think that standards have been lowered, not only in I.T.V. As the Pilkington

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Report says, there have been some bad effects on the B.B.C., too, and a certain lowering of standards in certain fields has occurred. There has been also this creation of unconscionable profits, and I think that the right hon. Gentleman was a little too easy about this. There is great disquiet at such immense profits —a licence to print money—which the Government themselves created, because they gave the franchise, which has turned out to be a licence to print money. I do not think it could have been foreseen, but now it should be condemned in much stronger language than the right hon. Gentleman used.
I have not changed my views since 1953. I think that this country would have been better off if I.T.V. had not come about, certainly not in this form. None the less, I.T.V. is here now. For good or ill, it is part of our national life. There are great social changes of this kind which, even if one objects to them, one cannot afterwards altogether abolish and treat them as if they had never started. One cannot make that sort of approach to the problems facing us whatever we think of commercial television. We have to proceed on the basis that we must curb and remedy the defects and reconstruct and reform in order to stimulate higher standards and greater responsibility and answerability. To get these things we want radical and far-reaching reforms, more radical and far-reaching than have been indicated in the White Paper or by the right hon. Gentleman in his speech.
I start where the right hon. Gentleman started. I think that free choice is the great thing, and this means that there must be something to choose between— different things, a variety to choose between. That means also that we must regard the viewers as the prime consideration—not the advertiser, sheer profits. We regard the viewers as the prime interest in televising. Where I differ from the right hon. Gentleman, or where I would go much further than he did, is that I argue that in order to get a free choice, we must assert public responsibility in part of this field; we cannot get a free choice unless the State undertakes an obligation to the community in the field of television.
The reason why I say this—I regard it as absolutely fundamental to the whole
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problem and to the debate—is that competition between channels in television does not produce free choice. It produces a denial of free choice. The only way to get free choice—that is, to give people a variety of things between which to choose—is to have co-ordinated programmes. There is no other way of presenting people with a real choice.
There is overwhelming evidence of this, and I shall dwell on it for a moment because I regard it as a central issue. Even between two channels in Britain today—one public service and one commercial—we get a tendency for the same type of programme to be produced at the same time on the two channels. Take Saturday afternoon sport, for instance. The large number of our fellow citizens who do not like watching sport have no television programme to watch through a large part of Saturday afternoon. This is not freedom of choice, because there is competition here and the two organisations have discovered that this is on the whole the way they can get the bigger audiences. This causes great public annoyance. So does the overlapping of plays, and so on. But this is an integral part of the system which the Government brought into being when they introduced commercial television. These two corporations are ordered to compete. There is no machinery by which they can co-ordinate their programmes.
This sort of competition in this field, even with our two present channels, shows that competition tends to produce —even when one of the channels is run by a public service authority—imitation. This is inescapably so where commercial channels are competing. They must compete for mass audiences. They must produce imitation and not variety. There is in the Pilkington Report a most striking piece of evidence on this point by one of the major programme companies.
Sir Harmar Nicholls: Would not a second channel for both commercial television and the B.B.C. remedy that situation?
Mr. Gordon Walker: I shall come to that in a moment. I will not dodge the issue.

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On the question whether two commercial channels would produce choice because they would produce variety or whether they would merely produce the same sort of programme, the evidence of the Associated Rediffusion Company given to the Pilkington Committee, presumably in writing because the words are put in quotation marks in paragraph 888, seems to me to be most striking coming from that source. The Report says:
"'Competition between two services,'"—
Two commercial services—
"'each carrying advertisements, would inevitably be competition for the attention of the majority audience. Such a system would inevitably produce competing programmes of the general type provided today by I.T.A. but with the influence of the mass audience very much accentuated. Under such a system it would be even more difficult than under the present system to provide for the interests of minorities. Even the general quality of the programmes might well deteriorate'."
Hon. Gentlemen who argue that two competing television programmes might produce variety and, therefore, choice have to deal with the evidence produced by one of the most important programme companies.
Sir Harmar Nicholls: It could depend on the terms laid down when the extra channel was given.
Mr. Gordon Walker: The quotation that I have given refers quite flatly to two services each carrying advertisements. If the hon. Gentleman wants a commercial service not carrying advertisements, it would presumably be outside the scope of that.
I now deal with the point put to me by the Postmaster-General. I think that to get real choice in this country in our circumstances—a small country with not many channels available—the right thing to do is to have three channels. Two of them ought to be B.B.C. and one channel ought to be I.T.V.—and only one I.T.V. This seems to me to be the most important reform of all— more important than anything else in the Pilkington Report—that we can make in our television system. It would transform it.
Co-ordination would transform the B.B.C., because it would by co-ordination of programmes get variety—not
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imitation but variety and change all the time—and that itself would remove the danger which the B.B.C. is now under of being forced, with only one channel, to lower its standards by competition. Competition by a single I.T.V., reconstructed in whatever way one likes —everybody agrees that it has to be restricted in some way or another— would, I think, be beneficial competition to B.B.C. programmes.
I think that in these circumstances commercial television might well be forced to raise its standards. The whole thing may be turned the other way round. Two B.B.C. programmes would be very potent competition. I.T.V. would have to fight and think about all sorts of minority interests and all sorts of other things it wholly ignores today because it does not have to worry about them.
I do not think that the Pilkington Committee appreciated the difference that would be made by having two B.B.C. programmes and one I.T.V. programme. Indeed, a major criticism that I would make of the Committee is that it never quite got clear in its head whether it was criticising the whole system of television or only one channel. The Committee got the two arguments mixed up through a great deal of the Report. That is why I think it was led into a wrong conclusion when it said that a fourth television programme could be given to a reconstituted I.T.A. I am against giving a fourth programme to I.T.A. or I.T.V., whatever form it may take, if it is dependent on advertising and is in that sense commercial. Two channels on I.T.V., however organised, would compete in such a way as to produce imitation of one another and not real variety. Therefore, we should not be adding at all to choice.
I am not quite sure whether we want a fourth television channel at all. We have to think of our resources. We must not put too much of our national resources into television. In any case, if we have a fourth programme, it must not go to I.T.V. It would be a waste. It would not produce competition. I repeat that it would produce imitation.
If there is to be a fourth channel, I am sure that it should go to education or what I would call a teaching service.

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Here I think the Pilkington Committee was also wrong. The arguments which the Pilkington Report uses apply very well to three programmes. When we have only three, none of them should be an education or teaching programme. I think three are quite enough for entertainment, but if we had a fourth channel there would be immense value in having a programme which set out to teach science, languages and so forth to schools and institutions of higher education and to adults. A specialist programme would have an advantage which the Pilkington Committee did not notice, namely, that it could pick the hours solely suited to its teaching purpose and not have to get them into the planning of a general programme so that when teaching came over the air a lot of the teaching times would not be suited to the people who ought to receive the programme.
I certainly think that the existing duty of the Corporation and the Authority to include education as one of their aims must continue. We do not want general programmes without any educational element. But the argument for a teaching service rather than a fourth I.T.V. service seems to me to be absolutely overwhelming. The Opposition attach immense importance to this. It is one of the things on which we have clearly made up our minds. We are quite sure that we are right, and will fight for it.
Although I think that two B.B.C. programmes and one I.T.V. programme would transform the situation, it is not enough. We cannot possibly leave I.T.V. as it is now. We must have radical reconstruction of it. I listened with great care to what the right hon. Gentleman said. I agree with and will echo some of the things that he said in this respect, and I disagree with others. When deciding what is the best way to reconstruct and reform I.T.V.—since the publication of the Pilkington Report this has really been universally agreed; it is one of the Committee's great successes—I think the right end to start is with what is wrong and what can be improved. One of the things that is wrong is, clearly, I.T.A.
One clear thing that comes out of the Report is that I.T.A. has been falling down on its job. In fact, it comes out much worse from the Report than the programme companies. It has not even
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done its statutory job of securing competition between the programme companies. It should not have allowed such vast profits to be made. It should not have allowed a lowering of standards. It should have controlled advertising much more than it has done.
But, above all—and here I agree with the right ban. Gentleman—it should not have connived at the abuse of the networking system. If it had not the powers to cope with this, it had every right to come to Parliament for them. The Authority has connived at this appalling networking system, which the right hon. Gentleman described so well. He could have gone further. It is not merely that four companies monopolise 80 per cent. of the time and carve it up, but that they do so in purely quantitative terms— wholely in terms of something called "time slots", which has nothing to do with the merit or quality of programmes. The Committee which determines time slots does not even know what the programmes are. Its work is purely quantitative.
This has produced immense rigidity, because advertising is also sold ahead. Thus, when a programme company is given a time slot it is told that it must produce a programme of the exact length of time which will attract in the peak hours about 12 million viewers. This is the scourge of the networking system, and it is extraordinarily rigid because, of course, the time for which advertisers pay is sacrosanct. It is hard for the Authority, with this networking system, to make any quick adjustments in programmes.
It is true that the B.B.C. also networks, but it can make quick adjustments. It did that the other week, when the Cabinet changes were announced— although this was perhaps not very much to the Government's liking—by producing a programme on the changes. It would have been hard for I.T.A. to have done that with its time slots.
Sir Harmer Nicholls: It is a pity the B.B.C. had a drunk on "Panorama".
Mr. Gordon Walker: When one invites a person to partake in a programme, one cannot be sure what he has partaken of.
Another defect of the networking system is that it is deliberately designed to

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shut out the smaller regional companies. Things are so arranged that it is penally expensive for these companies to attempt to exceed their allotted 15 per cent. for local programmes, and it is almost impossible for them to break into the network. Southern Television made a contract with the Old Vic to produce a number of plays. It had to drop that contract after the first play because it could not get into the network and the project was too expensive to carry out locally. A network as rigid as that is a stranglehold which we must break.
We must also reduce the amount and frequency of advertising. In my view, the lowering of standards has been in some ways due more to advertisements than to the programmes themselves. There are advertisements continually putting over the idea of "get rich quick" and of succeeding without effort. It is the context and frequency that we should be able to control. Incidentally, all these advertisements have strongly increased inflationary pressure and this has no doubt contributed to some of the economic problems which the Government have not yet succeeded in dealing with.
The excess of advertisements causes great public annoyance. Above all, the natural break causes annoyance. As Pilkington says, and as any viewer knows, natural breaks are patently contrived over and over again. The programme companies take as a guide the view attributed to a television tycoon who said, "any break that brings me £5,000 is a natural break." This sort of thing must be controlled. It must be controlled more directly than Pilkington proposes.
There is another matter in which we must go further than Pilkington. This is to break the tie-up between the programme companies and the Press. This is of extreme importance. Here, if anywhere, there should be competition. I hope that Conservatives who believe in competition so much when it does not make a difference will support it when it will make a difference. To maintain competition between different media of expression is important. It is dangerous to democracy when we get a tie-up between the two main methods. It is wrong and must be altered, as it can be.
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To achieve these things, the I.T.A. must become much more powerful. It must cease to be a sort of friendly P.R.O. for programme companies. It must assume the position of principal to agents. It must be the master. The question we have to face—the question Pilkington faced—is how we achieve these things without getting rid of commercial television. We cannot, for all sorts of reasons, get rid of commercial television, so we must find the best way of reaching our ends with it. Thus, I come to the famous Recommendation 43, of which the right hon. Gentleman spoke with great thought—that the Authority itself should take the advertising revenue and commission the programmes.
I attach great weight to this proposal. It should not be rejected out of hand. It must be weighed carefully. But also we have a duty to consider other proposals and this is forced upon us by the method of argument in the Pilkington Report. I wish it had gone into much more detail and had given more detailed guidance on this point. It has left gaps in the argument which force us to speculate for ourselves and try to work out alternatives.
I have read the Report twice and these particular paragraphs half a dozen times, and I still do not know the answer to certain questions, which I must know before I can make up my mind. Like the right hon. Gentleman, I cannot find a clear answer as to the basis on which the payment to the programme companies would be made, whether on a cost-plus basis or any other method. But this is essential to the proposal. We must clarify our own minds on how this would work before we reach a final conclusion.
Another thing which worries me is the possible effect of advertising on the Authority. I believe, with Pilkington, that advertising, unless controlled, can have a deteriorative effect on television. It might also have such an effect on the Authority. This also worried the Pilkington Committee, which said:
"… we have considered whether, if the Authority were responsible for the sale of advertising time, it would be so liable to pressures to conduct a service in a way suited to advertising as to mar it as a service of broadcasting. We have considered this possibility exhaustively."

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That means that the Committee was worried about it, but I wish that it had told us more about the considerations which it exhaustively went into, particularly in the light of its conclusion:
"It is, in our view, fallacious to suppose that the pressures must be irresistible."
That is not a very confident conclusion. I want a much stronger guarantee than that. One cannot merely argue that these pressures need not be irresistible. That sounds as if the thing were still a very grave danger. It is at least arguable that an authority free of this danger, and with great new powers, might be more effective than one which was exposed to this danger.
We must consider a number of these alternatives and not shut the door on them. It would be a mistake to rush into acceptance of one line of possible action to achieve our ends while shutting all the doors on the other ways of achieving them. The essential thing is that the Authority should have the controlling voice in networking and the planning and production of programmes. This may be done, as Pilkington proposes, by separating planning and production. It may be done by giving the Authority statutory duties and powers to share closely in planning and production. In either case the Authority could itself produce programmes. It has such power under the existing law, if it wished to exercise it. We would not have to increase its powers for that.
I find it hard to answer these questions partly because I do not think that Pilkington adequately argued either its own proposals for Recommendation 43. or the alternatives it refers to, or the specific methods, which it does not discuss. So long as the end is clear—an urgent and radical reconstruction of I.T.V.—it is wiser, at this stage, to keep our minds open on some of the means.
On the matter of the licence fee, I wish to say this. It is a poll tax which falls equally on everyone. It has all the defects of a poll tax and among those defects are the great social difficulties in raising it, because one always has to consider the effect on the poorest person on whom it may fall. This is one of the difficulties which arose out of the Beveridge scheme for social insurance. If we say, as Pilkington does, that we
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can only raise revenue for the B.B.C. by licensing, we shall, sooner or later, come up against this difficulty the social impossibility of raising a poll tax beyond a certain point, and that would curb the proper development of the B.B.C.
I think that the licence fee is high enough already and I am certainly not in favour of a £6 licence. There are some short-term devices—the £1 Excise which raises £12 million a year and which everyone regards as part of the licence that ought to go to the B.B.C. But there is a case, in principle, for getting part of the B.B.C.'s revenue from general taxation which falls more fairly on people than the poll tax. The Government get a great deal out of television.
Of course, one must guard against the danger of any Government influence on the B.B.C. or the appearance of it. I believe that there are various ways of achieving this end. For instance, I Chink that a statutory charge upon the Consolidated Fund is one. This is a device which we use when we want to protect some income from political influence. The judges, the Comptroller and Auditor General and Mr. Speaker have their salaries charged as a statutory charge on the Consolidated Fund in order to avoid any danger of Government control. I think that we should look carefully at the idea of a statutory charge on the Consolidated Fund for the duration of the Charter so that the B.B.C. would be immune from any sort of political influence in the meanwhile. The right hon. Gentleman asked for proposals. I give him this one, and I think that it is an important one.
In the matter of local sound broadcasts, I am with Pilkington and against the Government. I think there is a great deal to be said for this. They ought to go to the B.B.C. for the arguments adduced by the right hon. Gentleman. The right hon. Gentleman gave a lot of arguments why they should go to the B.B.C. and then said he would keep his mind open on the matter. I am with the right hon. Gentleman in his arguments. I think that a start should be made and that this is a good service.
This is an interim debate and we are not called upon to make final decisions. The Motion before us invites us to take note of the White Paper, and, in any case, final decision cannot be taken until

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we have the second White Paper, the Charter, the new Bill and all the rest. But I warn the right hon. Gentleman that we take very seriously indeed the proper reconstruction, and radical reconstruction, of commercial television. If the fourth programme is given to the I.T.V. and not to the educational service, and if there are not radical and far-reaching changes which turn the I.T.A. into a principal in relation to agents, which remedy the abuse of advertising and break up the tie-up with the Press—if these things are not put before us by the Government we shall oppose them with all our force and fight to get the sort of radical reconstruction of television in which we believe.
5.14 p.m.
Mr. Robert Allan: I think that a number of hon. Members know that I am associated with a company which has some direct experience with pay television and that this company is seeking to sponsor pay television in this country. I may say that I have no personal financial interest in the company and that I receive no salary for what I do for it.
I hope, therefore, that hon. Members will agree that I have a right to intervene in this debate and, indeed, to advocate the system of pay television. I am rather glad to do so at this stage, because my right hon. Friend, in, if I may say so, a very attractive and witty speech, indicated that he thought serious consideration should be given to the allocation of the fourth channel to commercial television based on advertising.
The right hon. Member for Smethwick (Mr. Gordon Walker) suggested that the fourth channel should be an educational channel. I think that it is quite appropriate at the moment that I should suggest that the claims of pay television should be considered for this channel as well. I wish to challenge the arguments on which the Pilkington Committee rejected pay television. I think it right to do this because the Pilkington Committee was an eminent one, and although some people have completely brushed aside its arguments I think that they should be met and met seriously.
In considering pay television, the Committee decided that it should be judged
"by whether it will naturally make for the realisation of the purposes of broadcasting."
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As the House knows, the Pilkington Committee devoted the whole of Chapter 3 to a consideration of what the purposes of broadcasting should be. The House will remember that the Committee appreciated, in paragraph 49, that the choice lay somewhere in between
"giving the public what it wants"
and
"giving the public what someone thinks is good for it".
I do not want to quote too much from the Report, but I will, if I may quote, from paragraph 46, which states:
"No one can say he is giving the public what it wants, unless the public knows the whole range of possibilities which television can offer and, from this range, chooses what it wants to see."
Again, on the same argument, the Committee says it would accept this argument if it ran:
"What the public wants and what it has the right to get is the right to the freedom to choose from the widest possible range of programme matter. Anything less than that is deprivation."
My last quotation is of the last two sentences of Chapter 53, which state:
"All broadcasting, and television especially, must be ready and anxious to experiment to show the new and unusual, to give a hearing to dissent. Here, broadcasting must be most willing to make mistakes; for if it does not. it will make no discoveries."
As I have said, the Committee agreed that pay television should be judged on whether or not it made for the realisation of the purposes of broadcasting. I submit that pay television fits perfectly into the purposes of broadcasting as defined by these three extracts from the Committee's Report on the subject. In the first place, if pay television is to appeal to the public at all and get a fee for what it offers it must offer something which is of special interest and high quality. On the other hand, as it is to be paid for programmes, there is no point in it trying to offer anything to the public simply because it thinks it is good for it.
Pay television has, as it were, built in "thrust bearings" which will force it to operate within the limits which the Pilkington Committee set. It must encourage high quality programmes and encourage discrimination among viewers. It must continually test and experiment, and no doubt, as the Pilkington Committee foresaw, it may make mistakes.

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But I am also quite certain that it can make new discoveries in this field.
It seems to me that pay television meets almost exactly the criteria set by the Pilkington Committee. The Committee rejected it, quite contrary to its own arguments, on four irrelevant counts which are, indeed, based on inaccurate facts. Very briefly, I wish to touch on the four counts on which pay television is rejected by Pilkington. First, the question of cost. Paragraph 974 argues that the only purpose of a pay television unit is for the collection of money.
In the next paragraph it argues that the 2s. per week per subscriber which is estimated to be the operating cost must be considered as a collection cost, and in the following paragraph it compares this cost of collection with the cost of collection of the B.B.C. licence. In the first place, the pay T.V. unit serves other purposes than just the collection of money. Secondly, the figure of 2s. covers studio operating costs, rent to an authority, and interest and capital depreciation on transmitters for three programmes. To compare this with the cost of the collection of the B.B.C. licence through existing State organisations is stretching the argument beyond belief.
In paragraph 976 the Committee complains Chat the cost of collection will be greater than the cost of programmes. If one thinks about this, one must realise that the cost of programmes bears no relation to the cost of collection. To evaluate the true cost of a pay T.V. service one must compare it with what a family would pay for special entertainment, or instruction sought in other more orthodox ways. It must be compared with the cost of theatre or cinema tickets, the cost of tickets at a sports stadium, or even fees at night school. Incidentally, one has to remember that in calculating these costs the money spent on transport and baby sitters and that kind of thing must be taken into consideration.
The second reason for rejecting pay T.V. was the effect that it might have on existing services. Everyone I know who has advocated pay television has indicated that there should be an authority to run it, and this authority would unquestionably have the power to
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determine what programmes should or should not go over the pay T.V. system. It could deny certain programmes to a pay T.V. service. As the House knows, this method is already used, and a list exists by Which both B.B.C. and I.T.A. are prevented from claiming exclusive rights on certain programmes designated as national events. Such a list, extended by all means if necessary, could easily be applied to pay T.V. I do not think that there is any danger of the existing services losing material in that way.
The Committee also argues that there is such a limited amount of material available that a pay T.V. service would have to be sustained by robbing the existing services of the programme material which was currently available. This is a negative approach. There was a letter in The Times yesterday, signed by a number of distinguished people in the world of entertainment and sport, which advocated pay T.V. because of the stimulus that it would give to their interests. I have had conversations with many producers and promoters of sports, people concerned with high class and less high class entertainment, and all are agreed that pay T.V. would create new material for itself, and also, incidentally, for the other television services.
In addition to the specially created material, there are a lot of programmes which are eminently suitable for a pay T.V. service which are not at present suitable for the free services. For in-instance, complete theatre productions, complete ballet, or opera, could be available, instead of excerpts as now. There could be a complete and uninterrupted view of Wimbledon tennis or Test matches. Not in competition with free television, but as an alternative, being run concurrently, so that if any time during a Test match, or a tennis match, the programme turned to Children's Hour, or something else, a viewer could, by paying, continue to watch cricket or tennis. Again, there could be special programmes of exhibitions, or instruction in all kinds of specialised events such as archery, fencing, or golf. We have people offering programmes on how to sail dinghies, and there are endless opportunities for programmes giving instruction in bridge, chess, and so on.

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Those are some examples of the lighter type of entertainment which could be available, and there are almost as many of a rather more serious nature. There is instruction in diploma courses in languages and in adult education, and refresher courses for professional people such as lawyers, doctors and dentists.
Another important fact in this connection is that pay T.V. programmes can be repeated. Indeed, it is part of their attraction that they will be repeated so that viewers can look at them at times of their own choice. Their repetition, in fact, increases the amount of material available. I do not think that there is any justifiable argument for the Charge of poaching by a pay T.V. service on existing material, and the same consideration applies to talent. Why should we think that there is a limited pool of talent? This argument was used against the introduction of commercial television in the first place, but consider how the demand has brought forth new resources. The same thing could happen with the introduction of pay T.V., perhaps even more so because the demand would be for higher quality.
Again, the Pilkington Committee rejects pay T.V. because it fears that it will cause a further decline in live audiences. There is a decline in live audiences, but this is due much more to the changing habits of people in an affluent society than to anything else. The motor oar has had more effect on the reduction of live audiences than ordinary television services. Also, I believe that pay T.V. seeks out and finds in the home new types of audience who have not been able to participate before. For instance, a London theatre production could be made available to people in the North of England. Programmes from the Shakespeare Memorial Theatre, or courses in Russian, could be made available to individuals in remote parts of the country who could not possibly go to the source of the entertainment.
Finally, in this connection, a small T.V. screen will never replace the excitement and drama of going to an event, any more than the record player is a substitute for the concert hall. Indeed, the record player has stimulated and increased the number of live audiences at concerts, opera, and so on. Undoubtedly, the same thing could happen with pay
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T.V. It could provide a new stimulus for people engaged in the creation, promotion, and production of sport and entertainment.
The last argument adduced by the Committee against pay T.V. is what the Committee calls the dynamic of profitability. The argument is that a minority programme might be profitable, but majority programmes would be much more so, and therefore the operators of the pay T.V. system would concentrate on that. This shows that the Committee did not understand the essential characterestic of the type of pay T.V. service that we are recommending.
An essential quality of this is that there should be three simultaneous programmes appealing at the one time to three different classes of people. It would seek to increase its audience not by going out for a mass audience, but by appealing to three different series of minorities, for those minorities are there. It might, if they were good enough, get a large audience on any one occasion. Then the dynamic of profitability would force it to go for the two other sets of minorities to increase still further its revenue without greatly adding to its overheads. In that way, the dynamic of profitability would work in exactly the contrary direction to what the Pilkington Committee foresaw and be the best guarantee that minorities were catered for.
I have spoken for quite a long time on the Pilkington argument and I do not make any apology for doing so. The Committee was an eminent one and I think that their arguments must be met. I hope that I have convinced the House that the rejection by the Committee of pay television is really contrary to its declared objective and is based on unacceptable arguments.
In trying to meet these arguments, I have advanced some of the positive reasons why I advocate the pay television system. Broadly speaking, viewers want the choice of light entertainment, more serious entertainment, and finally, what I think the right hon. Gentleman called the information or educational services. This can only be done by three simultaneous programmes. I do not see how a free service could possibly provide that, but a pay service

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could do so in high quality and, furthermore, be financially self-supporting.
I speak with some authority and confidence on this because we have had, as some hon. Members know, the benefit of a three years' experiment of this system in Toronto. I should like to say very few words about it. First, this was, and still is, an experiment. It was never intended that this very limited service to only 5,000 or 6,000 people should make a profit and, therefore, the argument of the people who decry pay television because of the so-called losses made in Canada can be discounted. The experiment was carried out for two main purposes. First, to prove that pay television was a technical possibility. This was done with dramatic success. There are no technical snags whatever with the pay-television system. The second point of the experiment was to test viewer reaction to a number of programmes which varied from modern opera to do-it-yourself kits and from ice hockey to Hitchcock horror films.
Toronto has West end cinemas as we have in London and also local release cinemas. To test the reaction of pay television on cinema audiences, the authorities there carried out an experiment with three films which had had a West end run and a local run as well. One week after the local run they put on three films, at different times, over pay television. The films were "The Parent Trap", "The Absent-Minded Professor" and the "Swiss Family Robinson." Over one-third of the pay television subscribers paid to see the films. That shows that pay television is not robbing the cinemas of their audiences; indeed, they are finding the lost cinema audiences. This is further confirmed by a poll which showed that 32 per cent. of the adult pay television subscribers had, in fact, not visited a cinema for over a year.
In Toronto the local football team had refused up to then to allow its games to be televised. However, last year it allowed pay television to televise seven games While these were being put out over pay television there was no drop in gate. In fact, the gate was larger on each occasion than it had been for this match in the preceding year. It did not suffer any loss in gate money, but had
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additionally the television revenue. In January and February this year pay television put out nine away games of Toronto ice hockey matches over its system. These were away games and 23 per cent. of the viewers paid to see those matches. This was a very nice additional revenue for the club and, of course, involved no loss of gate money because they were away matches.
These figures show what the use of pay television could mean to the finances of local cricket and football clubs. They also show, incidentally, that a pay television service can break even on the basis of 30,000 subscribers. Of course, these figures—and there are others which I should be only too delighted to make available to my right hon. Friend should he want them—are applicable to North America. I believe, however, that they give us sufficient information to make it unnecessary for us to have a trial in this country. We could go ahead straight away with a start, maybe on a limited scale. If my right hon. Friend decides that a trial should take place, I hope, despite what he said just now, it will be on a large scale, otherwise it will not be possible to make deductions from it. I also hope that it will be in an area from which it will be possible, if the trial proves successful, to develop naturally into a full pay television service.
I ask him most urgently to consider that it should not only be a trial over wire, but a trial over the air as well, because pay television systems have now been developed, tested and proved for both wire and air. Which system is used depends I think very largely on cost and speed of development. If one is to go for any significant coverage of the country and densely populated areas are not to be favoured at the expense of lighter populated areas, there is no doubt that the air system will be enormously cheaper than any wire system.
As to speed, I think that it takes twelve years to get full air coverage, but I believe that the present estimate is about five years for 65 per cent. coverage. According to the Relay Association Book, the existing relay systems are capable of transmitting television over wire to about 130 communities out of a total of 2,500 communities listed in this country. The great

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populated areas of Manchester, Liverpool, Birmingham, Glasgow and Edinburgh are not even touched by wire and Greater London itself is hardly touched. In the areas which are served only 12 per cent. take advantage of the relay system offered. In total, just over 3 per cent. of all television licence holders receive their television over wire.
Even if instead of the 12 per cent. that I have mentioned, 100 per cent. of homes in the wired communities took the relay services—which is unlikely—it would still mean that only 21 per cent. of the country was covered. This alone would occupy the companies concerned for years, and it would be a very expensive operation. To undertake, in addition, the task of first preparing and then wiring even the large areas of population at present unwired would be an enormously lengthy and very expensive procedure.
A broadcast, on the other hand, reaches the isolated areas and the built-up areas equally effectively, and if a reasonable national coverage is to be achieved it is very much cheaper than wire. Wire services must play a part in this, too, but if we are to get a significant and quick economic coverage a broadcast transmission must be used. This is quite possible, as my right hon. Friend knows. I have already sent him a scheme indicating how it could be done.
It makes a great deal more sense to give the fourth channel to a pay television service than to an additional commercial service, based on advertising. I agree with the right hon. Member opposite in what he said on that subject. He and others on his side of the House want to curb the present I.T.V. profits. Many of us will be discussing ways in which this can be done as well as by the introduction of another service based on advertising, but we all want to see standards of television raised.
Another advertising channel would be bound to encourage and increase fierce competition for mass audiences, as the right hon. Gentleman indicated, quoting from Rediffusion's statement to the Pilkington Committee. That is not the way to raise television standards. A discriminating pay television service, on the other hand, would raise standards and do so without imposing a financial
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burden on the general public. To go ahead with pay television now would not only raise standards, but would also allow us to level peg with the United States, and lead Western Europe in the development of a new medium which has very far reaching possibilities. Not least, for us here, in this Chamber, it would offer a new solution for the future organisation of our television services. If we have two services financed by licence revenue, one by advertising revenue and one by consumer's choice, this could be a non-partisan solution. It would remove from party controversy the whole question of broadcasting. AM those who are interested in the future of broadcasting, and not least my right hon. Friend, would surely wish to see that.
5.43 p.m.
Mr. Christopher Mayhew: The hon, Member for Paddington, South (Mr. R. Allan) has given us a comprehensive picture of the pay-television service. I take the view that if Parliament ware to offer television on pay T.V. a large coin would be required to tune in to the hon. Member. I hope that he will forgive me if I do not follow him on the subject of pay-television; I want to devote my remarks almost entirely to Recommendation No. 43 of the Pilkington Report which, as the Postmaster-General said, is probably the most controversial and the most important decision facing us.
There will be much agreement with what the right hon. Gentleman said in his speech and with what is contained in the White Paper; for example, with the proposal that the B.B.C. should get a second channel—although I would add that the arguments are more evenly balanced between the B.B.C.'s getting a second channel and its being given to an independent public corporation than the Pilkington Committee made out—the proposal that certain technical changes should take place, and also the caution which the Government are rightly displaying on the question of the £6 licence fee. I understand that the cost to the B.B.C. of the Pilkington recommendations is £6 and that the cost of the White Paper recommendations is £5. In any case, I go along wholly with those who say that at this time we do not require so stiff a rise in the licence fee as that recommended by the Pilkington Committee.

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I now turn to the controversial issue of the reform of I.T.V. There can be few controversial issues on which it is less useful to seek guidance from the newspapers at the present time. It is a familiar experience to those who have attacked I.T.V. to find that their criticisms are consistently ignored or mis-reported in one section of the Press and. by compensation, reported with gratifying generosity in the other. There is an almost perfect correlation between a newspaper's shareholding in I.T.V. and its willingness to publish criticisms of it.
The Press and television should never have been tied up together. Even taking them separately, they are already far too powerful and monopolistic. To have put them into each other's pockets, as the Authority did, was a disastrous mistake. The Pilkington Committee does not go far enough in this matter. It merely states that no dominant Press interest should be allowed in a programme company. I see no answer to the simple recommendation that there should be a total separation of the Press and television, so that both can watch each other vigilantly and can criticise each other freely and objectively, in that way making a contribution instead of a threat to our Parliamentary democracy.
One of the misrepresentations made of the Pilkington Report in the Press was that it made out I.T.V. to be a total failure. This is not so. A careful reading—and I admit that it must be a little careful—shows that a lot of well-deserved praise was bestowed on certain aspects of I.T.V. I agree with the Report in much of this praise I.T.N. was warmly praised, deservedly, and a proportion of I.T.V. output was declared to be excellent. Tribute was paid to the advances which I.T.V. caused in television production techniques. I agree with that. I add that I consider that the speed at which I.T.V. was established after the Act was quite remarkable, and reflects great credit on the administrators concerned.
The Report also makes some important and unavoidable criticisms. Four main defects, which will be agreed by hon. Members on both sides of the House, are revealed by the Report: first, inadequate competition between programme companies; secondly inadequate control of advertisements; thirdly,
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inadequate range and balance of programmes, and fourthly, excessive profits. To overcome these four defects the Committee put forward its famous Recommendation No. 43, proposing that advertising should be sold by the Authority, which would do the programme planning and buy the programmes substantially from the programme, companies.
This recommendation has been the principal target of attack by the supporters of commerial television, and by the programme companies in particular. They are right to single it out. There is no doubt that the principles behind it are extremely drastic and mean that programme planning is to be run on the basis of a public service instead of a commercial profit. Therefore, this scheme of reorganisation is not merely one scheme among many; it raises in the clearest form the most fundamental issue in broadcasting—the choice between public service planning and commercial planning of programmes.
We ought to support this recommendation. It should be implemented. I take this view not on doctrinal grounds or on grounds of morality, although arguments can be put forward on those grounds; I take the view simply because it is the most straightforward and practical way to overcome the defects which hon. Members on both sides of the House agree require to be remedied in I.T.V.
Let us take the first of these defects, the question of the range and balance of programmes, that is to say, the mixing, often in peak hours, of programmes which appeal to less-than-maximum audiences. They need not be highbrow programmes. Here I think that the Postmaster-General was wrong. He suggested that we should mix Dostoievsky and, I think, Ruby M. Ayres. But, of course, a minority programme is not necessarily a highbrow programme. Football, in general terms, is a minority programme. Women do not watch it. Current affairs is a minority programme; gardening, local affairs, travel programmes, religion, greyhound racing—none of these can be described as highbrow, but none gets a maximum audience. They could, therefore, be called minority programmes.

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They often get big audiences, even though not the largest audiences. Everyone, the Government, I.T.A. and hon. Members, agree that these programmes must be given a fair showing in any proper broadcasting system. It is increasingly realised—this is something which could be demonstrated by audience research and often has been— that, in fact, it is these programmes, which appeal to a particular taste or a particular interest, that are actually more keenly enjoyed by those watching them than programmes which are watched by a much larger number of people. This can be demonstrated.
I.T.A. strongly agrees that there should be this mixture, this balance, this wide-range programme. Hon. Members Will have received, as I have received, booklets from I.T.A. deliberately designed to show that the Authority does not set out to get maximum audiences all the time, but, in fact, puts many minority programmes on even at peak hours. Whether the booklets actually prove this is another question. There are a lot of statistical pitfalls in this question. What is a peak hour is one statistical pitfall. Another is, what is a minority programme? A current affairs programme on some subject, treated authoritatively, will get a much smaller audience than a programme on the same subject which is treated sensationally. Thus it is very difficult to deal with statistics of the degree of seriousness of programmes on the two systems. My point is simply that the Authority itself agrees on the importance of balance. So do the Government and so do the programme companies.
In their evidence in the Pilkington Report, which is summarised in paragraph 194, all the main companies agree that they have a responsibility for leading public taste and that is an implied responsibility to cater for the minority as well as the majority taste. Here, I suggest, we have an important shift in the climate of opinion since the debates which we had on the Television Act. At that time there was a great deal of argument that the test of a television system or programme was simply the size of the audience which it attracted. The system which attracted the largest audience would be giving the viewers what they wanted, it would be a demo-
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cratic programme. It was further argued correctly enough that the commercial motif in broadcasting would ensure that the maximum audience was obtained at all times. The larger the audience the more the advertising rates and the higher the profit. It would be a kind of self-regulating system.
That is a totally different outlook; it is an outlook against balance and a wide range of programmes. My question is, if we now accept, as we do, that getting the maximum audience all the time is not the purpose of broadcasting, what exactly is the advantage of having programme planning commercially motivated? What do we gain by it? What point is there in rewarding programme planners according to the size of the audience if it is not their duty to go for the biggest audience?
The programme companies agree that there is no commercial advantage in putting on a minority programme. In the Pilkington Report it states:
"Anglia Television said that independent television must be concerned to hold the maximum audience; Associated Rediffusion said that it was inevitable that it should serve the majority; for Scottish Television Mr. Thomson said that, because advertisers paid for viewers. ' it is inevitable in the system that you should be reaching generally for a maximum'"—
and so on. It is perfectly plain that to the extent that they broadcast minority programmes the companies lose money, and to the extent that they pursue their profits, as they are entitled to do, they unbalance their programme schedules. Therefore, one would have thought that they were the worst possible people to be in charge of programme planning for television. The only sensible and logical solution, therefore, is to do what the Pilkington Committee recommends, namely, to separate programme planning from the commercial profit basis. The planning would be done by I.T.A. which is a public service and a non-profit making body.
The Postmaster-General seemed to feel that this problem of balance and range could be solved by a halfway house. He suggested that we could leave the programme companies earning the advertising revenue but strengthen the Authority. This comes up against the basic snag which the Pilkington Committee plainly realised, that if we make the Authority the planner while leaving the advertising revenue with the companies, we create

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a conflict of interest at the top of I.T.V. which makes efficient administration impossible. That is the conclusion which the hardheaded business people on the Pilkington Committee came to.
On the one hand, under the Minister's scheme the Authority has a duty to secure a proper range and balance of programme, but, on the other hand, it is in the financial interest of the companies to evade it. Therefore, what we should get would be more directives, more detailed codes, more monitoring and supervision, more fines, I suppose, and there would have to be a preview of all the programmes because it would not be possible to secure range and balance in the programmes without knowing what they were about. Therefore, we should be creating the maximum bureaucracy and the maximum friction.
I should be sorry for the programme companies because in this kind of halfway house they would be getting their revenue from the advertisers, but the Authority would decide when their programmes went on the air. The result would be that the companies might make a large programme for a mass audience at a great cost, but the Authority might put it on late in the evening and the company would make a loss.
To sum up on this question of principle,' it would seem to be that once we agree that programme planning should be balanced, we must agree that it should not be commercially motivated. Once we agree that it should not be commercially motivated it is absurd to leave programme planning in the hands of commercial programme companies.
The second defect, which I think is agreed by hon. Members on both sides of the House, is in the control of advertising. It was referred to by my right hon. Friend, and I think we all agree that a closer control is needed over the amount of advertising, over the content and over the "natural break" about which the Postmaster-General is to talk to the Independent Television Authority. Again it is suggested that the way to handle this is not through the Pilkington Committee recommendations but simply by strengthening the supervision of the Authority over the programme companies.
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We have heard this kind of thing before. These are the assurances that we were given when the Television Act was being discussed in this House. Everything was to be all right, we were told, and there would not be too much advertising. There would be no irritating interruptions of the programmes, we were told, because for one thing—hon. Members may remember this—it was contrary to the interests of the advertisers that such things should happen. We were even told on one occasion, I recall, that British advertisers were not like foreign advertisers and that they would never stand for things of that kind—and if they did they would be quickly disciplined by the iron hand of Sir Robert Fraser.
I recall, in particular, the natural break and the assurances we were given by Government spokesmen about that. I cannot resist quoting Lord Kilmuir on the natural break. He said:
"Suppose there is a two-act play and there is a really natural break between the acts, I cannot myself see any harm in an advertisement coming in there, especially if the first act had lasted an hour and 10 minutes."— [OFFICIAL REPORT, 25th March, 1954; Vol. 525, c. 1448.]
I see that he is tipped for the post of Director-General of I.T.A. by the Evening Standard this evening. Compare the assurances which we were given at that time with what happened. My hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Northfield (Mr. Chapman) may recall that he and I went to the Independent Television Authority a year or two later to complain about a number of matters, including the natural break. I asked the Director-General what advantage it was to interrupt Dr. Bronowski's science lecture with a commercial. In the words of the agreed minute of the meeting he replied that
"a pause was an advantage in exposition just as chapters were an advantage in a book."
It was the same concerning the amount of advertising. Again in the House we were given an assurance that the Authority with its iron hand would look after this. We were told that what was envisaged was five or six minutes' advertising in the hour. We have not got that yet. We still have seven minutes maximum, though heaven knows that is better than what we have had in the intervening years. We have

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had a system which is called averaging. It means that the Authority says six minutes an hour, but averaged over the day, which means three minutes an hour or less in the mornings and afternoons when no one is watching and rates are low, and nine minutes in the evenings when everyone is watching and rates are high. That is the trick by which viewers have had inflicted on them nearly twice as much advertising at peak hours as they are entitled to have.
Last week the Postmaster-General said in this connection that he did not think it very rewarding to look into the past. Many of us on this side of the House would understand his feeling on that point, but, on the contrary, I feel that there is something to be said for studying carefully the means by which the programme companies—aided and abetted by the Government—have evaded the Television Act, so that we may be able to stop these evasions in future. If the Government could not withstand the pressure to water down the Television Act, why should we expect them to be able to withstand the very much heavier pressure to water down the Pilkington Committee recommendations? The dominant feature of this whole battle in the last eight years has been the vulnerability of the Conservative Party to commercial pressures.
The Pilkington Report recognises as a logical solution of this problem of controlling advertising simply that advertising should be taken away from the programme companies which have abused their privileges and given to the Independent Television Authority. If a suitable financial basis were arranged for the Authority, there would be no incentive to advertise more than was appropriate or to interrupt programmes in an irritating way or put on advertisements of a low standard—for instance, the detergent advertisements which are regarded by millions of viewers as dishonest.
That is the simple solution of the Pilkington Committee, but a great clamour has grown up among the programme companies against this idea that they should lose this valuable, powerful privilege of television advertising. It will be interesting to see on which side the Government come down, on the side of the Pilkington Committee's recom-
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mendation that advertising should go to the control of the Authority or to the programme companies strong pressure that they should be allowed to retain it. We shall watch with great vigilance to see on which side they come down and we shall bring home to the electorate what their decision is. As indicated by the Postmaster-General today, it seems likely that they will not accept the Pilkington recommendation but will go for a watered down compromise to strengthen the Authority in its relation to the programme companies on advertising.
If they try that halfway house they will be up against the same conflict of interests as if they tried to organise the balance and range of programmes. On the one hand, the Authority's duty will be to make sure that there is not too much advertising, and irritating advertising, in the middle of the programmes, while, on the other hand, there will be the companies' financial interests and what is most profitable from the financial point of view. This conflict of interest will lead to more detailed codes, supervision and bureaucracy of all kinds. If there is one document in the world which is useless and fatuous it is a code of advertising practice. If we want codes and directives of this kind, the Television Act is full of them and the I.T.A. has a mass of advertising practice codes. The solution is not to tidy up this matter and make it tighter and more elaborate. The solution which is best from every point of view, of common sense and good administration, is to get advertising into the hands of the Authority and away from the programme companies.
The third great defect which the Pilkington Committee set out to overcome with its recommendations was lack of competition among the programme companies. Here we are talking about two forms of lack of competition. There is the monopoly of selling advertising and the monopoly in the sense that only certain companies can get their programes broadcast. In the advertising monopoly there is common ground, I believe, between the Postmaster-General and myself as against my right hon. Friend. As I see it, he and I agree that television advertising must not remain a monopoly in private hands. I think he

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adds the suggestion of a second channel to try to break the television advertisers' monopoly.
The Pilkington recommendation is to make a private monopoly into a public one and to cream off the surplus revenue for the Treasury. The Government's intention to start a further channel would at least change the monopoly into a duopoly, as it might be called. A duopoly is a racket enjoyed by two persons instead of one. The best answer against making a fourth channel commercial has been given, strangely enough, by the Independent Television Authority itself. I quote from the evidence it gave to the Pilkington Committee as quoted in the Authority's booklet on educational television. The Authority says in its evidence:
"The Authority is inclined to feel that three general television services are perfectly adequate to meet public demand, and that the addition of a fourth general service would not be very sensible …. We can have four television services. Which is better for the nation—to add to three general services a fourth general service or to add a specialised and broadly educational service, with a purpose different from the other three?"
I do not see that it could be better put than that. This was when the Authority thought it would get the third channel. I ask the Minister whether his suggestions about an additional channel are accepted by the Television Authority. What it has written is sensible. I doubt very much whether there is much public demand for a fourth channel. I doubt very much whether there is enough entertaining talent for a fourth general channel. I am sure, however, that a wonderful service could be given by a specialised educational channel run on proper lines.
We must somehow create competition among the programme companies in the markets of programmes. The Pilkington Committee's recommendation is quite simple and sensible on this. It would create competition by requiring the companies to sell their programmes to the Independent Television Authority or, if they preferred, to some other purchaser. There is no reason why they should not sell them to the B.B.C. or to a foreign service. This would ensure competition between companies and a fair deal for the smaller as against the bigger companies. What the Government plan is far from clear. The Minister made
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no proposals on this point at all, and it is a weakness of his position in trying to create a system of competition between the programme companies without putting the Authority in charge of the programme planning and while the programme companies still have the advertising.
I will not say much about profits, because I do not agree with the Pilkington Committee when it says that Recommendation 43 is the only way of bringing down the programme companies' profits. There are a number of other ways possible. Nevertheless, Recommendation 43 would undoubtedly bring down the profits to a more reasonable level.
All the time since the Report has been published, those who support Recommendation 43 have been awaiting a detailed and authoritative statement as to why this recommendation will not work. We have watched the newspapers and the periodicals. The Minister has had two or three months in which to study the proposal and to bring before the House a clear statement showing why it will mot work.
Mr. Woodrow Wyatt: I will tell my hon. Friend in a moment.
Mr. Mayhew: I hope that my hon. Friend does it better than did the Minister, because if he does not, we may take it that it is totally workable, because none of the points raised by the Minister had not been discussed by members of the Pilkington Committee.
His first objection was that it will create a kind of B.B.C. It is true that programme planning under this recommendation would be a public service matter and not commercially motivated —and that is important—but the programme companies would still remain and would be local. Anglia would still be in Anglia, Granada would still be in the North, and there would still be local broadcasting of local things. That is very different from the B.B.C. They would be financed differently from the B.B.C. The style of the programme companies would be unchanged, and it is perceptibly different from the B.B.C. I see no ground for saying that I.T.V. under the new set-up would not have a distinctive characteristic of its own.

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We were told that under the recommendation the Authority might be undesirably influenced by advertising if it took the advertising itself. This would depend to some extent on how the finances of the Authority were arranged. But if, as many hope, we simply give the Independent Television Authority the right to raise a certain sum of money by advertising, it will have no incentive whatever to yield to the pressure of advertisers. It will have no shareholders and make no profit. The danger of pressure from advertising seems to be negligible.
The only other way in which the Postmaster-General said that it would be unworkable was in the question of payment. There is a simple answer to this objection. At the moment, both in B.B.C. and I.T.A. there is an infinite variety of means of payment for programmes. At one end there is the B.B.C. which might create a programme entirely out of its own administrative staff. That would be one kind of payment. At the other end, the B.B.C. goes to America and buys a series of programmes. That is another kind of payment. In between those two there is every type of payment for programmes, and the same could be true under the I.T.A. scheme.
Quite a proportion of the I.T.A. programmes will be bought abroad—let us say 15 per cent. Another proportion will be made by I.T.A.—say, 20 per cent. Another proportion will be locally done by the programme companies and the question of payment will not arise. That makes 50 par cent. of the programmes. For the rest, there is an infinite variety of ways of handling payments for programmes, and I therefore claim that no case has been made out by the Government in this respect.
A number of other objections have been raised. The Lord President of the Council mentioned two or three of them. I am glad that the Postmaster-General did not refer to them in the House today, and I have it on good authority that none of the objections mentioned by him today is considered important at a very high level in the Independent Television Authority.
Finally, there is the argument that this recommendation, this radical reform,
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would be unpopular with the public. If there had been evidence of resistance from the public to this very important plan, I believe that the Minister would have brought it forward today. He brought no evidence forward that the public was against this drastic suggestion of the Pilkington Committee. He quoted no public opinion poll, for the very good reason that public opinion polls show a decisive majority of public opinion in favour of this Pilkington Committee recommendation. The established polls in the Daily Mail and in the Daily Express have shown this quite plainly.
Perhaps I may quickly read into the record the Daily Mail poll, which is also typical of the Daily Express poll. This is the poll which has forecast with uncanny accuracy, with deadly and encouraging and extremely satisfactory frequency, the appealing by-election defeats of the Conservative Party in recent months. The question was,
"The Pilkington Committee suggests that in future the I.T.A. should run the advertisements, decide the programmes and order them from Granada, A.T.V. and the other companies. First, do you think the system will work? Yes, 53 per cent.; no, 39 per cent. Do you think that the system is desirable? Yes, 55 per cent.; no, 37 per cent. Do you think that this system will result in better I.T.V. programmes or poorer I.T.V. programmes? Better, 60 per cent.; poorer 29 per cent."
The Daily Express poll is still more decisive.
It is a fact that whereas, as the Postmaster-General said, by the judgment of Tam ratings I.T.V. is extremely popular, whenever any survey of public opinion is made—for example, which does you best, I.T.V. or B.B.C.?—the public says over and over again that it prefers the B.B.C.
Mr. Wyatt: In which case, why are they all watching commercial television?
Mr. Mayhew: I could easily answer that. We have discussed balance and maximum audiences, for example. If my hon. Friend had been following me— I do not think that he could have been —he would know that that provides at least part of the answer.
The same poll asked,
"Taking all things into account, which do you think is doing the better job with television as far as people like yourself are concerned?"

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The answer was, B.B.C. better, 42 per cent.; I.T.V. better, 22 per cent. Therefore, it is a fact which we must bear in mind that the mere existence of a high Tarn rating does not mean that I.T.V. is necessarily respected or regarded with great affection as a system by large sections of the British public.
In conclusion, if this is so, if it is not regarded with great affection and respect, we could argue whether it is due to dislike of advertisements; or to the false suggestion that commercial television is free; or because commercial television and the commercials in particular reflect a system of values which many people reject; or simply because after six years a large section of the British public feel that this commercial system is not the right way to run broadcasting in the last resort. Whatever it is, public support for this drastic recommendation of the Pilkington Committee is, I think, undeniable. If the Government reject it, let them do so on grounds that it is unworkable and not on grounds that they are pressed by a hostile public opinion.
I was glad to hear my right hon. Friend indicate that at worst he had an open mind about Recommendation No. 43. I am glad that he intends to study it further. I thought that I already detected some welcome signs in his speech of recent study. I put it to my right hon. Friend that the case for this reform should be made out on practical grounds as the most sensible and common-sense approach to overcome the defects about which we all agree.
But this reform is also a precise expression of the principle of public service broadcasting for which he and his party have fought year after year for many years. It is also the principle by which the Conservative Party stood year after year until 1954. In 1954 they were pushed off the traditional Conservative Party policy by a well-organised but unrepresentative pressure campaign.
This recommendation of the Pilkington Committee—a Committee which the Government set up, which was unanimous and which was of independent people—gives the Government an opportunity, if they wish, to go back on the path of public service planning of pro-
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grammes which they should never have left. It gives them an opportunity of doing so without loss of face and with considerable dignity. I am therefore glad that the Postmaster-General did not rule out this recommendation today. If he accepts the broad principle behind the recommendation, not necessarily the scheme itself, he will be reflecting the real mood of the country on these matters and he will receive strong and well-deserved support from all political parties.
6.20 p.m.
Sir Hugh Linstead: I am sure that the whole House enjoyed the speech of the hon. Member for Woolwich, East (Mr. Mayhew). Behind it there was a great deal of knowledge and experience. Above all, it was delivered with a great deal of gusto. I could not help feeling that one ought to pass a discreet message, not to the Evening Standard, perhaps, but to the Evening News, tipping the hon. Gentleman as a possible runner for the chairmanship of the I.T.A. If the hon. Gentleman were able to take that rather unenviable post, I still have the feeling that, in spite of his enthusiasm for Recommendation 43, he would find that that proved somewhat more tough in the working out than he seems to think at the moment. A little later in my speech I shall state my basic reason for thinking that that way of solving a problem which, I admit, must be solved will probably not work.
I ought to say that I am a member of the General Advisory Council of the B.B.C. Therefore, I Start my approach to this subject prejudiced in favour of the B.B.C, but I have absolutely no authority to speak on the Corporation's behalf and what I have to say is my own personal opinion and nothing more.
I want to make a reference to the criticisms, some of which are justified, of the Pilkington Report for overstating the case for the B.B.C. and losing its balance in stating the objections to the conduct up to now of the I.T.A. and I.T.V. On the whole, as the hon. Member for Woolwich, East said, public opinion is broadly with Pilkington in saying that the Corporation has performed an admirable task in balancing

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the three necessities of broadcasting— information, education and entertainment. I am certain that the public is with my right hon. Friend in desiring to see as soon as possible a second television channel going to the B.B.C. so as to give the Corporation the opportunity of balancing its programmes and giving a real variety of choice to viewers.
The criticism which is often made, and in some respects perhaps fairly made, that the B.B.C. is, as my right hon. Friend said, sometimes authoritarian—a little later he softened it and said "paternal"—or, as the Economist said, "Auntie" is something that for a moment is worth facing. My mind goes back to a meeting of the General Advisory Council of the B.B.C, when we were discussing some questions of standards in broadcasting. Our attention was drawn to the fact that the motto of the Corporation is the Latin word "Quaecunque"—in English, "Whatsoever things", taking us right back, as was pointed out at the meeting, to St. Paul—
"Whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just …"
In so far as the B.B.C. has been animated by that motto and by regard for principles of that kind in the highly cynical world in which we live today, it is not a bad thing. In so far as the Corporation can be criticised for having put too much emphasis on that side of its activities, on the whole it is well on the side of the angels.
I do not know whether many hon. Members present now saw the film which some of us arranged to have shown in the Grand Committee Room in Westminster Hall, "T.V. Round the World." If any hon. Members did, the thing that must have stayed in their memory was the picture of those African audiences sitting in little communal listening posts getting their impressions of Western, European and American civilisation from the discarded American films. To see those eyes drinking in the impression of civilisation from the Westerns, the shootings, the riots and the murders was a lesson in the necessity for maintaining, so far as we reasonably can, the highest possible standards in broadcasting and television.
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There are two problems which I want particularly to discuss. The first is the financing of the second B.B.C. channel, which I think raises a matter of considerable constitutional importance, both to the B.B.C. and to the House. The second question is the future of I.T.V., which the hon. Member for Woolwich, East has just dealt with.
The Corporation has made it abundantly clear that it regards it as impossible to maintain its reputation as an objective organisation serving certain standards independently of Government and independently of commerce if it has to draw any part of its finances either from advertising revenue or from a grant in aid from the Treasury. This proposition of the Corporation's, which is wholeheartedly supported by Pilkington, requires some thought and examination. We must not be afraid to look at this through the eyes of the man in the street. The Treasury is taking £85 million a year out of broadcasting at the moment. In a few years' time the figure could be as high as £100 million a year. The man in the street, conscious of Chat sort of revenue passing to the Treasury, mainly, in his mind, from the profits of commercial television, cannot equate that with a request that he should pay another £2 a year for his viewing licence.
We must face the problem squarely of not increasing the licence fee, but financing the second B.B.C. channel by what can only be a grant in aid from the Treasury, although balanced and represented by a payment into the Treasury from the profits of commercial television. If that is to be done, it is essential that ways and means should be found by which the Treasury grant does not, and does not appear to, impose any kind of control of policy by the Executive, nor control of methods and organisation by the Treasury.
Sir Harmar Nicholls: Can my hon. Friend hazard an estimate as to what the two figures might be, the grant in aid and the amount which could be taken from commercial broadcasting?
Sir H. Linstead: I think that I could, but I have not actually done the sum, so I would have to ask my hon. Friend to"put down a question ".
I am sure that public opinion is broadly in accord with that way of

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financing development, and it is not impossible for means to be devised— whether by means of the Consolidated Fund Bill, as was suggested earlier, or in some other way—whereby the money could pass to the B.B.C. without any strings attached to it, and with no possibility of the Executive interfering with the Corporation's freedom, and its reputation for integrity and independence.
The question of Treasury control also requires some thought. The Public Accounts Committee already discusses the finances of the B.B.C, because the Corporation receives from the Post Office a certain repayment of the collective licence revenue. That is not open to objection, because it is an inquiry into how the money is spent, but with the B.B.C. moving in the world of entertainment—a world completely different from the world of the Civil Service and Government administration—it would be a tragedy if it found itself confronted with Treasury control, and Treasury inquiry into the detailed running of its administration. The B.B.C. is entitled to have every possible protection from that danger.
Then there is this most difficult subject of the future of I.T.V. From the point of view even of those who backed the setting up of independent television, the performance of I.T.A. and the results as shown in I.T.V. must be regarded as a disappointment, in the sense that there is immense limitation of What could have been great opportunities. After all, the object was to import competition into viewing, but the possibility of competition has been killed by allowing the growth of the network system.
The I.T.A. has not at all been seriously conscious of the need to combine education and information with entertainment, in the sense that if that is to be done seriously it must be done at the peak viewing hours. There is only a surface compliance if it is put on at hours when only very small audiences will be available. That is a disappointment to those who were glad to see the I.T.A. set up, because it at least gives the impression that it is the commercial tail that wags the I.T.V. dog.
I do not join in criticising the programme companies because of their
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profits. I do not think that they arc to blame for the profits. The system was prescribed by Parliament, it has worked a certain way and has produced a certain result, and if anyone is to blame it is Parliament for having created the system. The most that can be said is that the profits should be regarded as being at the disposal of broadcasting, and need to be looked at again as part of the examination that is now going on.
The reorganisation of the I.T.A. must be done with two aims in view. Those aims are very easy to state, but probably very difficult to achieve. The first is to control programme companies for quality, and to ensure that they provide more competition. The second is to find a way to divert more of the advertising revenue for the general benefit of all listeners and all viewers.
I do not think that Recommendation 43 will work. It implies that the programme companies will have no financial interest in the success of their programmes except what they may be able to sell them for to the B.B.C. or to other purchasers. Once we take the possibility of cashing in on a really imaginative and successful programme we are liable completely to demoralise, and take away all substantial interests in, the programme producing of the programme companies—
Mr. Mayhew: Of course, the B.B.C. producers, who are at least as good as the I.T.V. producers, do not get that reward at all.
Sir H. Linstead: That is probably true, and it may be a weakness in my case. Nevertheless, there is a great deal of difference between planning a programme that one knows will be put on the air, a programme which, if it is successful, will at least bring one satisfaction of having done a good job and ensure that the artists one employs know that they will be put on the air, and the planning of a programme which, until it has been produced, one does not know whether one will be able to sell it.
It will be in the discouragement of the programme companies that we shall discover the weakness of this Pilkington recommendation. They will, in fact, become very little more than production agents. The I.T.A. will tell the programme companies the sort of things it

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wants, and the companies will produce those things. There will be the minimum of incentive to producers, authors, and so on, to produce their inspired programmes. I find the arguments in paragraphs 579 and 585 of the Report completely unconvincing.
If the I.T.A. is to be the chosen agent for controlling commercial television, I do not think that sanctions of the kind Pilkington discusses will ever be likely to be very effective. The most effective sanction we can have for a body such as the I.T.A. is for it to have some hand in the choosing of the directors of the programme companies. If those directors know that some part of their continuance in office may depend on compliance with standards laid down by the I.T.A., we shall probably have a real sanction that money would not impose. But, on the whole, I do not believe that even that sanction is the way to deal with a body to which we give substantial public responsibility.
What my right hon. Friend really has to do is to choose his men properly; choose them, give them a job to do, and expect them to do it as public servants would do it. If that is done, and if they retain—and this, I think, answers what my right hon. Friend put to us—the control of the planning of the programmes, but not necessarily their content, they will have the authority that it is necessary to have over I.T.V.
The background of our discussion is what the public want, and I am sure that the public want a few very simple things which it is not impossible for us to give to them. They want as much real choice as possible. I am equally sure that they want the B.B.C. to be the main broadcasting medium. I am certain that they do not want an increased licence fee—they would be superhuman if they did—tout they would say that if the B.B.C. is to be financed partly by a grant in aid there must be safeguard to ensure its integrity and freedom. They want I.T.V. kept as a lively competitor and for broadcasting, however it is financed, to be recognised as a public service.
I believe that they would also say that, from their point of view, both the B.B.C. and I.T.V. should be equally independent. I do not quite know what
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the word "independent" in the terms of the title "I.T.V." actually means now, but I am sure that this question of independence, both from Government and commerce, is really at the heart of the future of good broadcasting in this country.
6.42 p.m.
Mr. Ness Edwards: As one who seven years ago played an active part in the debates concerning the establishment of commercial television, my reading of the Pilkington Report has given me a great deal of satisfaction. I recall that seven years ago Lord Kilmuir, the then Home Secretary, introduced the relevant Bill with the same sort of speech we heard from the Postmaster-General today. Then, as now, we were given various assurances, pledges and promises on how this new phenomenon in British broadcasting was going to be for the good of the nation.
When one reads the Pilkington Report one discovers that all our warnings were justified. That is borne out by the Report of this Conumittee which was hand-picked by hon. Gentlemen opposite. We were told that independent commercial television was being brought into being to break a monopoly. That was the great slogan of those days. But what do we find on reading the Pilkington Report? We find, as our own knowledge bears out, that a commercial monopoly in this country, in the hands of three men, now dominates commercial television. Three great companies control the network, with various minor companies as their satellites and protectorates. The controllers of these three companies are the men who are supposed to offer a real challenge to the monopoly of the B.B.C.
I recall how we repeatedly warned the Government of the dangers involved in natural breaks. The Pilkington Report deals with this and so far no one has denied the criticism contained in the Report. We also warned about the power of the Press—of a monopoly controlling the minds of the people—being in the hands of a small group which would have charge of the powerful new medium of commercial television. I do not know how the Postmaster-General could have made the sort of speech we heard today, in the sort of mood in which he delivered it. After all, both

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he and his predecessor were repeatedly challenged on the natural breaks issue, about monopolies and about networking which was in contravention of the intention of the Act.
The justification for our warnings and criticisms and the fact that alterations are needed is contained in the Pilkington Report, for what this document states in a most critical manner has proved us to be right. I should have thought that it would have been obvious to the House Chat we made a great mistake seven years ago. Hon. Members should by now have appreciated that every pledge then given has been betrayed and that the people who pressed the thing through were really concerned not with the welfare of the nation but with the money that could be made out of it.
Instead of abusing the Pilkington Report we should all be grateful to that Committee for what it has done in the face of the climate of thinking which now exists. Despite all the power in the hands of the Press lords and big tycoons the Pilkington Committee has issued the sort of Report which calls us back to a sense of public duty. Now we must try to undo the things for which hon. Members opposite have been responsible. We must change it all and try to get back to a condition of sanity.
It has surprised me that on the Motion before the House we are discussing not the matters which are contained in the White Paper but, mainly, Recommendation 43 of the Pilkington Report on the future of commercial television. I understood that that was to be the subject of a further White Paper and that the great battle on the future of commercial television would not be fought today but on another occasion when this additional White Paper is before the House.
I differ from some of my hon. Friends over our approach to this problem. I believe that the responsibility for either implementing or rejecting the recommendations of the Pilkington Report on the future of commercial television rests with the present occupiers of the Front Bench opposite and not with those who sit on this side of the House. It is for the Government to say what they propose to do. Do they accept the general approach of the Report on commercial
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television? If so, do they accept the means whereby that approach can be put into effect? Or do they believe that an entirely different type of structure from that suggested in the Report is the answer? The responsibility is theirs and my hon. Friends should not fire their ammunition before the big battle commences, so giving hon. Members opposite the excuse of using divisions on this side of the House for not applying the recommendations of the Pilkington Report.
I shall, therefore, leave the question of the future of commercial television to another occasion when, I hope, we shall be told what the Government intend to do. I am reminded of the attitude of the right hon. Member for Woodford (Sir W. Churchill). When in Opposition that right hon. Gentleman always declared that it was for the Government to propose and for the Opposition to oriticise and examine their proposals. The Postmaster-General, when moving the Motion, devoted little time to the White Paper and I want to return to those parts of it which deal with the least controversial matters contained in the Pilkington Report.
I believe that there is a general welcome for using the available channels in Band III to set up a Welsh network. This would detach Wales from the West of England and would give Wales a complete Welsh network. I believe that there is also general agreement on the new powers to be given to the Welsh Council and the proposal to increase its numbers. It is equally important that a similar council should be established for commercial television. What is of greater importance is that on neither council should any person be appointed who has a direct financial interest in the programme contractors who will be operating in the Welsh area or in the I.T.A.
Equally, we welcome the acceptance by the Government that there shall be party political broadcasts directed particularly to Scotland and to Wales; they will have independence. We hope that the voice of the minority will not take the place of or have equal place with the voice of the majority. We hope that when the matter is being discussed between the appropriate parties, this will be kept in mind.

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I also welcome the change in linage, but the Postmaster-General—and the Pilkington Committee, too—is a little behind the times in recommending a 625 instead of a 525 linage. I am sorry to be technical in this matter, but it is of the highest importance. Telstar which is now functioning, operates on 525 lines, so that every picture from it is on the 525 basis. We are on 405 lines. The recommendation in the White Paper is to go to 625 lines. Therefore, every picture that we get from Telstar must be converted from 525 to 625 lines or, on present linage, to 405.
Television transmission of the future will depend upon space telecommunications rather than on landlines and radio links. The main Telstar system will be American.
Captain L. P. S. Orr indicated dissent.
Mr. Ness Edwards: It is the American system that is functioning now and it is not proposed that we should put into orbit a Telstar on a different linage. If we did, they would fail to function. One would be transmitting on 525 lines and ours, I presume, would transmit on 625 lines.
The result is that there must be a conversion from one linage to the other. I hope that the Television Technical Advisory Committee, which prepared the evidence on which the White Paper is based before Telstar came into operation, will reconsider even now whether we should go to 525 rather than 625 lines. I do not want this country always to drag behind the two ends of the earth. The whole of America uses 525 lines and Japan, in the Far East, uses 525. It is probable that the Continent of Europe will adopt 525 lines, but under the recent proposals we are to use 625 lines.
I also agree that the compatible colour system which is recommended on 625 lines is the right process for the future. There is, however, one problem concerning which both the White Paper and the Pilkington Report are inadequate. I am sorry to get back again to technical matters. The Pilkington Committee recommends that the new programme be given to the B.B.C.—and with that I agree—but that it be given to the B.B.C. on 625 lines in Bands IV and V. That is right. What it suggests,
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however, is that it shall be a new national network, and authority is given in the White Paper to proceed with the introduction of this new national network almost as soon as possible.
If that happens, we shall have one 625-line programme and anybody who wants to receive it must buy a new receiver. In addition, however, although the White Paper is a little doubtful about this, the Pilkington Committee recommends that we should transfer from the existing 405 lines into Bands IV and V on 625 lines by duplication rather than by switching—stopping all present transmissions, say, this week and going into Bands IV and V on 625 lines next week—thus rendering all existing sets obsolete and making everybody buy a new set. Twelve million sets in this country will be rendered obsolete by the change.
Captain Orr: When it occurs.
Mr. Ness Edwards: Yes, when it occurs. Side by side, we shall have two systems, one of which can be received only on a new set and the old system which can be received only on the old sets., The proposal is that the new programme shall be in Bands IV and V and that the old programmes shall be transformed to 625 lines in those two bands. If that is done on a national and not a regional basis, we shall create all over the country the ability to receive one B.B.C. new programme and two old programmes, one B.B.C. and one I.T.A., so that everybody must get either two sets or a dual set.
Everybody who buys a new set when the B.B.C. has started its new programme will receive only one programme and will be unable to receive the old programmes. My suggestion is that the B.B.C. should have its new programme in Bands IV and V in the London Region, as suggested, but that parallel with it the Corporation should start to duplicate its existing programme, so that it will be possible to receive in London on the same set on 625 lines in Bands IV and V both the new B.B.C. programme and the old duplicated B.B.C. programme.
That raises the question of the I.T.A. As on 625 lines in Bands IV and V four times the existing number of transmitters

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will be required, the areas of the programme contractors will have to be entirely recast. The old areas will be destroyed because there will be four times the number of transmitters.
I shall not forbear to draw to the attention of the House at this stage the rather illegal and immoral conduct of the I.T.A., which, behind the back of Parliament, gave to the programme contractors an option agreement upon any new development before the House of Commons had decided upon it. I am using the words of the Pilkington Committee. There has been no Press publicity, there have been no headlines, about this immoral conduct of the I.T.A. and about this subservience of the I.T.A. to the programme contractors. But there is the fact, that when we go on to 625 and duplicate I.T.A. programmes we destroy the basis of the present programme contactors' areas and we shall have to have an entirely new set-up for the operation of commercial television.
As this involves viewers in what may be a lot of unnecessary expense and a lot of confusion the Government ought to make it quite clear that the introduction of this new B.B.C. programme on 625 in Bands IV and V, side by side with which there should be duplication of the current B.B.C. programme, and, I presume, of the commercial programmes as well, will involve all sorts of readjustments in the programme contractors' current contracts.
Here is a tremendous task for the electronics industry of this country— four times the number of transmitters and 12 million new television sets to be made available. To ask for a fourth programme as well, whether on a commercial or a non-commercial basis, is, in my view, just economic madness and is asking the electronics industry to carry a load which it cannot carry. If it is to be put on to it it will push up prices, because too much money will be chasing too few goods.
I turn now to pay television and wired T.V. Here are two nice juicy areas for exploitation, with wired T.V. covering Wembley not for the purpose of providing programmes either for the B.B.C. or future commercial television but for those people who can pay and
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pay heavily for the possibility of getting what will really amount to a monopoly of the big events in London. That is the sort of thing we have very much to guard against.
Mr. Edward Gardner: I wonder if the right hon. Gentleman will allow me to interrupt, because I am seeking information, and I am sure the House will be interested to learn the answer to this question. I think it is Section 7 of the Television Act which enables the companies to be kept away from a monopoly of a particular programme such as of sporting events. Would it not be possible to introduce some similar restrictive legislation which would govern pay-television so to be piped as to avoid just getting it for some customers, and to stretch it out so that other viewers can also see the programme?
Mr. Ness Edwards: If we had a provision of that sort and if it were effective. But if everybody can see the programme, why pay? Why pay through the nose to see a big fight at Wembley if one can see it on the B.B.C. or I.T.V.?
The effectiveness of wired television depends on the programme contractor having a monopoly of a particular item. The greater his monopoly the greater the price he can charge, and the greater the price he can charge the more difficult it is for commercial television or the B.B.C. to get it. Here we are in a field in which very fat profits can be obtained by withholding from the majority of the public what is to be given to a selected minority of the public. I hope indeed that we shall have no illusions about this. This is going to be another pressure lobby in this House, on the ground that we must make experiments—another experiment like I.T.A.
I am sorry to have taken so much time and to have talked so technically about this matter, but this question of the change-over and the duplication and its application throughout the country is of very great importance. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will take into account these and some other points I have put.
Tonight we are having only a skirmish before the great battle which is yet to come. I would ask the right hon. Gentleman to remember this. Let him not

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repeat the same sorry experience which a predecessor of his had at that Box, and that was to give assurances, and then to have to admit in another place that all the assurances which he had given, and all the pledges which he had made, given with good intent and in all honesty, were of no avail because the commercial friends of the Tory Party had let them down and let them down badly.
7.6 p.m.
Sir Harmar Nicholls: I am delighted to be able to follow the right hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr. Ness Edwards) and to congratulate him on attempting to talk about some of the intricate technicalities which surround this subject. He was an ex-Post-master-General when commercial broadcasting was first introduced. I, at that time, held the high office of Parliamentary Private Secretary to the Assistant Postmaster-General who was dealing with the question of bringing it in.
The right hon. Gentleman said he had a lot of satisfaction in reading the Pilkington Report as a consequence of all that happened in those days. I can tell him this, that I, and those of us on this side who had anything to do with it, have a lot of satisfaction in seeing the actual good results which flowed from introducing commercial broadcasting into this country.
In a way this evening's debate is not a debate in the normal sense. It is not intended to be. I thought that the Postmaster-General was very impressive, and he gave the sort of lead which can be helpful on occasions like this. He was asking for a pooling of ideas so that later on, having got all those ideas together, he could be assisted by them in preparing the further legislation to be effective in two years' time. I think that that impressive mood which he set has been reflected by the debate so far.
The right hon. Member for Smeth-wick (Mr. Gordon Walker) was in much better form than usual. He did not say that commercial broadcasting ought to have died. He contented himself with saying that it ought never to have been born. I think that that was a real advance on his part. He posed some
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real problems which must be taken into account and must be settled. I am glad to see that the mood set by my right hon. Friend has been maintained so far, and I feel that it will be maintained for the rest of the debate. There has been no return to that hurling of abuse which took place immediately after the Pilkington Report came out.
We all know that there have been brilliant programmes put out by both the B.B.C. and independent television. We also know to our cost that there have been very dull and trivial and mediocre and objectionable programmes put out by both of them over the same period. It would be foolish to suppose that either the B.B.C. or I.T.A. has not a lot of room for improvement, and one of the purposes of this exercise tonight, as I see it, is to try to find ways and means of bringing about that improvement.
In saying that we have had these objectionable times on both of the channels, I do not think that we ought to denigrate the really first-class development which has taken place in this miracle of television. Over the twenty-five years that the B.B.C. has been in the business of television it really has made a most commendable contribution, and the good has certainly outweighed the bad. There is no doubt about that, and now, after a mere six years in which I.T.A. has been here, it has produced its own particular blend without cost to the taxpayer or to the licence holder, and has produced it in a way which I think justifies its continued existence. I am very glad that the mood of the White Paper and of my right hon. Friend the Postmaster-General reflects that desire, too.
The strictures on television which we have heard are more or less strictures on all advertising. At the end of the day, that is what it comes down to. The hon. Member for Woolwich, East (Mr. May-hew) has been amazingly consistent ever since we had discussions about this in expressing his abhorrence, his hate, or advertising in almost any form, but advertising on television in particular, and he is entitled to that view. I do not think the situation justifies the extremes to which he goes, but he has been consistent and that is his view.
Mr. Francis Noel-Baker: My hon. Friend the Member for Woolwich, East (Mr. Mayhew) is not in the Chamber. I think I know his views just as well as he does the hon. Gentleman, who has presented a travesty of them. My hon. Friend is against all bad advertisers and too much advertising, but that is not the same thing as saying that he is against all advertising, as such.
Sir Harmar Nicholls: I am glad to hear that. It may well be that we might go into the same Lobby, if the hon. Gentleman's interpretation of his Friend's views is right and if I am wrong. The hon. Gentleman has very great knowledge of this subject and wants to do the right thing, however misguided he might be on occasions. His real objection is wider —to advertising as a whole, with particular emphasis on television advertising. I believe that is a philosophic outlook which cannot be accepted today, and that, if it were accepted, there would be very little advertising. I do not think that would be very helpful to our general economic health. It would affect the general economic health of the country. Efficiency in marketing and distribution, which means advertising, is no less important than efficiency in production, and if we allow bias or prejudice to put a strait-jacket on advertising, I think it would affect the nation's economic health as a whole. I merely make that point, because it is so easy to make these objections to advertising, without realising the length to which they might lead us if we accepted them in toto.
I should like to get away from stating the obvious, along the lines which have been indicated already in this debate. Important decisions have to be made which will affect the livelihood, for good or ill, of many thousands of people engaged in television and in the allied industries connected with it—decisions both on the technical plane and on the field of presentation, which will affect the nation's standing, and which are tied up with the future of television. On the technical side, there is so much agreement that one need not spend much time about it. I think it is clearly right that we should speed up the switch to 625-line standards, but I do not think
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the right hon. Member for Caerphilly and I are on the same "beam".
As I understand it, the development is that on Band III two channels remain, and that one of these channels will be given in order to improve and to separate the Welsh broadcasts. That is good, and we all approve. The other will be given to improve some of the bad reception areas in the various fringe areas in other parts of the country. It means that we can forget about Band III, because two channels are to be allocated, if effect is given to the White Paper. It means that if we get into Bands IV and V, a new channel can be allocated, and here I part company with my right hon. Friend. He suggested that that would be only four channels for programmes, but, in point of fact, on Bands IV and V I am informed that we could have up to 13 or 14 channels. Not that there is any suggestion at the moment of using them, but we know that we could have that number. We could have a second channel for the B.B.C. on the 625-line standard, and, simultaneously, a second channel to the commercial programmes on 625 lines, and we could do what the right hon. Member for Smethwick wanted to do, and have our special teaching channels, if the money were there for all these things to be brought in at the same time. That shows the complexity and technicality of the matter, and perhaps the right hon. Member for Caerphilly and I can discuss this matter outside the Chamber at some time, I hope, to our mutual satisfaction.
We all agree that we want to go over to the 625-line standard and that it is right to allocate the remaining space on Band III, in order to give the Welsh their service and improve the service to the fringe areas. I know that the House will forgive me if I interpolate some remarks about improving the fringe areas, which is very important. It has my wholehearted support, because in Peterborough we suffer from being in a bad fringe area. My right hon. Friend had better take heed, and the sooner he can improve reception there, the happier will be his hon. Friend the Member for Peterborough.
It is obviously right to open up Bands IV and V and to move from V.H.F. to

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U.H.F. Once this is done, it will break the log jam which has surrounded manufacturers of radio and television sets for some time. The point is that for two years, while we have been waiting for the Pilkington Report, the whole of the radio industry has been waiting for some guidance. As the right hon. Gentleman has pointed out, there has been this fear that they could not go on turning out sets which would become out-moded any time we make the switch to 625·lines, and therefore we have this log jam in the industry, which is a very important industry. There are between 50,000 and 70,000 people employed in it and they have been waiting for the decision. Once the decision is made, they can give up their "cliff-hanging", tool themselves up for the new 625-line U.H.F. standard, and, with their future distinct and clear, they can get on their way.
On these technical matters, there is fairly general agreement, and I ask my right hon. Friend to make his decision on this matter pretty quickly and to announce it. We could then say to the manufacturing industry "Godspeed, the best of luck, give the listeners good quality at the cheapest price you can," and we shall be on our way.
What about presentation? The technical matters can be sorted out, but what about presentation, and who is to provide the programmes? I agree with my right hon. Friend the Postmaster-General. I do not think we can accept the Pilkington Report recommendations on this matter. I do not believe that any group of responsible people who understand the set-up can accept the extreme recommendations about the methods of programming and organisation. For practical and political reasons, I truly believe that it is impossible to hand over the whole running of independent television to I.T.A. I.T.A. is completely unequipped to act as a programme company or as a space-selling company, and to attempt to put these duties on it would not be sensible. I believe also that it is not politically acceptable, because it would create a second State monopoly, and I do not believe that a Government of this complexion could possibly contemplate that.
Therefore, on this aspect of the matter, which has already been dealt with at
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great length, so that I need not pursue it, I think that Pilkington is simply "not on". On the other hand, we can support the general Government line as set out in the White Paper and enlarged upon by my right hon. Friend. The Government line in the White Paper is that both the B.B.C. and independent television should have second channels in Bands IV and V. I was a little disappointed at the words used by my right hon. Friend today. I have read the White Paper as giving a much more certain indication that we should have the B.B.C. with its second channel, which we all want, and that we should also have commercial television with its second channel, too. My right hon. Friend's words retreated a little from that. Perhaps I have misunderstood it. I hope that what will count will be the White Paper message and not my right hon. Friend's words as I thought I heard them.
The second was that there must be some closer control of independent television and that for this purpose I.T.A. must be strengthened. I think it will be done. It ought to be done. I do not think that the hon. Member for Woolwich, East and the right hon. Member for Caerphilly were quite fair in the way they worked out their "shopping list" when they criticised the details of averaging. They picked out all the little mistakes which had been made. If one went to similar trouble and found out all the little mistakes the B.B.C. has made I think the list would be just about as long. I do not think we need brush off with a rather flamboyant sentence the idea that we could strengthen the I.T.A. control to ensure that Parliament's desire is carried out. I believe we can do that. Apparently we have the chairmanship of I.T.A. vacant. Let us ensure that someone is put into it who really can ensure that Parliament's intentions are carried out. I believe it can be done, and I have every faith that it will be done.
The third point in the White Paper was that the present system of commercial contractors will not be dissolved. That has my support, and I believe it now has the support of pretty well the whole House.
With regard to experiments in colour, one accepts this, but it is a long-term project. It will be very expensive. It

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would be wasting the time of the House to go into detailed comments on it now. Four or five years' time will be soon enough for that.
Pay-television has been discussed at length. The general indication of the White Paper is sound. It is that there is a possibility that we shall have experiments in certain parts of the country over a wire or on the air. That can only be good. That is the only way of finding out whether there are any faults, whether the faults are insurmountable and whether the system is desirable.
I come to the last point, the allocating to both the B.B.C. and the I.T.A. of their second channel. I should like a start on the new second channel to be undertaken by the B.B.C. and I.T.V. simultaneously. That would be for the good of the people who purchase the sets. I reiterate the point made by the right hon. Gentleman. At the moment people have paid £80–£90 for a set, expecting to see both channels. If we had 625-line transmission on the B.B.C. only, it would mean that people with those sets would not be able to switch over to look at the alternative commercial programme. If the two bodies move together, the people can have both. Let us give the customers full value for their money.
On the other hand, I do not want the television licence fee to be increased. Nor am I particularly enthusiastic about the Treasury giving up the £12 million that it obtains from the fees at present. That is where we come to the dilemma. I do not envy my right hon. Friend his task. If the B.B.C. is to start a second channel, the production cost—setting up the studios and so on, and getting the project really on the move—will be £40 million to £50 million. Where will that money come from? I am sure that my estimate is not excessive; it may even be an under-estimate.
Perhaps I may kill an inference which has been bandied about and accepted a little too easily. This is the suggestion by the Pilkington Report that the I.T.V. profits could cover it. The total gross profits of the programme contractors for 1961-62 will not exceed £28 million. When tax is deducted, a little more than £15 million will be left. In one programme company alone—A.T.V.—there are about 14,000 shareholders. So that
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if the money left after deducting tax were handed over, it would go nowhere at all towards paying the cost of the B.B.C. putting on the second channel. I am afraid that the cosy thought that the commercial profits could be diverted to the B.B.C. to finance its second channel must be discarded. If the B.B.C. had all the money left, plus a subvention from the Government—which it is said nobody wants—of £25 million—I cannot see it getting that—it would only just about be enough to put on the second channel.
Back we come again to the licence fee. If the Government insist on the B.B.C. having its second channel at once, I can see no alternative to a £6 per year licence fee. The extra £2, if it is all given out, will amount to only £25 million or £26 million. Therefore, I cannot see where the money is to come from to enable the B.B.C. to have its second channel, which we all want it to do.
Mr. W. R. Rees-Davies: There is another important point. If a second channel for I.T.V. is allowed for, is there anything to show that anything like the present profits would be made by the other existing independent television company? If that be lost, is there anything to show that on a second channel we shall get additional promoters who will find the requisite capital sums to ensure that there is such a programme?
Sir Harmar Nicholls: My hon. Friend has made the best part of my speech for me. He has done it most admirably— much better than I could have done it. That is the problem.
The initial stages of the new 625-line transmission cannot be speedy. There are too many of the old 405-line sets in homes for the transfer to the new system to take place overnight. Therefore, it will be a five-year programme, and possibly a seven-year programme. Because of that the number of viewers having the new type of set can grow steadily. If it is that I.T.V. is prepared to take the risk that my right hon. Friend has just underlined, as it took the risk previously, it could wall be that that might be the best means of getting us over the initial experimental period of switching to the

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new channels with the 625-line transmission. It would mean that commercial television on the second channel would have to come first or alongside the B.B.C.
If we allocated the only channel for the 625-Line transmission to the B.B.C. and the I.T.V. was prepared to share it, as programmes are now shared on the channels on the 405-line system, that would be one of the ways I visualise of overcoming the dilemma about doing what we want to do. Without something like that, I cannot see how we can have the second channel for the B.B.C. Otherwise there would have to be an extra licence fee plus a subvention. Since it can be done by merging the B.B.C. with the commercial undertakings, which have shown a public spirit in the past in handing on the results of their experiments, I think that that is a line of thought that we ought to follow.
If we can put the slurs, the biases and the prejudices on one side, it may well be that we can have all the benefits of the next stage in television development without viewers having to pay a 50 per cent. increase in their licence fees. I take the line that it is for the Government to decide whether they would prefer to face the odium of an increase in the licence fee.
That is my contribution in reply to the invitation by the Postmaster-General to those of us who have given some thought to the matter. It is not an easy problem, and there is no need to make it more difficult by having an unnecessary battle on all sorts of partisan lines. I believe it is possible to give extra benefits to the televiewing public. If we put aside bias and are prepared for the B.B.C. to merge to some extent with the commercial undertakings, I believe we can leave all the customers happy.
7.39 p.m.
Mr. Woodrow Wyatt: I want, first, to declare my interest in this matter. I have appeared on television under contract, both for commercial television and the B.B.C.—much more for the B.B.C. I hope to appear again. I have made filmed programmes for television. I own a few hundred shares in Granada Television, although I have never appeared on that network. Two small local newspapers which I control
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have applied, as a self-protective measure, to operate commercial radio stations in case they should be instituted. However, almost everything I am going to say is in conflict with those interests.
Let me start with the B.B.C. I am sorry that the Government have fallen in with the prevailing Pilkington fashion of worshipping the B.B.C. as a sacred cow and as the potential mother of sacred calves. The B.B.C. is very good, but it is not as good as all that. Until commercial television, it took very little interest in television at all.
Its former Director-General, Sir Ian Jacob, never went to Lime Grove, which was starved of money and attention. The television news was prepared by sound radio by a gentleman called Tahu Hole, from New Zealand, and read out in great slabs as though it was on the wireless. Programmes were tedious, unimaginative and contemptuously doled out to captive audiences. Consideration of regional affairs and regional interests was pitiful and minimal. I am bound to say that it still is on B.B.C. television.
Then came commercial television. The B.B.C. sprang to life, mainly activated by the drive of a very remarkable woman, Mrs. Wyndham Goldie, who would have made a far better Director-General than Sir Ian Jacob—but she was a woman, which aroused great prejudice in the B.B.C. Young and able producers were recruited, like Michael Peacock and Donald Baverstock, to name only two. Such persons had never been seen in the B.B.C. before.
"Panorama" was invented solely because of, and to compete with, commercial television. I know, because I was invited to be in at the beginning. This has proved one of the best things done by the B.B.C—since I left it, of course—and, indeed, it is one of the best things ever seen on television. "Tonight" was later created to compete with commercial television because the Postmaster-General gave additional hours of broadcasting and the B.B.C. had to fill it up with something. Some people criticise "Tonight" for being superficial, but I think that it is pretty good. It would never have arisen but for commercial television.
In the same on-rush of energy provoked by commercial television,

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"Monitor" was born, as were numerous creative and important documentary programmes which still persist. It is absurd to say, as does Pilkington, that competition has been harmful to the B.B.C. and has lowered its standards. It has given it fruitful stimulus. It has given the B.B.C. television a face-lift. T.V. has improved it out of all recognition.
However much those at the head of the B.B.C. would now like to forget their dismal pre-commercial television record, it is unquestionable that competition has compelled the B.B.C. to far higher standards of presentation engaging millions more deeply in serious subjects. This would never have happened otherwise.
If the B.B.C. gets another channel, there is a real danger that it will fall back into its old complacent, self-satisfied and priggish ways. Having been awarded an accolade by Pilkington and the Government, it would relax its valuable attempt to influence the level of understanding and appreciation. This can only be done by tremendously hard work in preparing programmes in such a way that many millions are encouraged to watch things that previously they would have thought too difficult or too boring for them.
The B.B.C. never used to do that before commercial television. It used to have gentlemen with blackboards retailing lots and lots of figures and facts, with no attempt to stimulate the imagination or interest of an audience beyond a narrow group who were sufficiently interested in that subject already to be paying attention.
In any case, the B.B.C. has quite enough to do already running sound radio and its television service. I quote here from a great authority who has been listened to with enormous respect in this House:
"One of the defects of B.B.C. television is that it is too centralised and cumbersome. This is partly due to its links with sound broadcasting, which could be broken, but partly also to the vast size of the job it already has to do. Its existing defects would be magnified if it were to undertake a second T.V. programme."
That authority is none other than my hon. Friend the Member for Woolwich, East (Mr. Mayhew), who wrote that in a carefully considered document which he presented to the Pilkington Commit-
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tee as his evidence. It was right then, and it is right now.
I cannot understand why my hon. Friend has changed his view. Perhaps as the Pilkington Committee accepted everything else he wrote, and based its Report on his pamphlet, he thought it reasonable to give it a concession in return.
Mr. Mayhew: Perhaps my hon. Friend could oblige me by reading the full quotation. As I have explained, I consider it a very finely balanced argument between the B.B.C. getting the second channel and the second channel going to a second public service corporation. He chooses the argument on one side, but I also deployed the argument on the other side.
Mr. Wyatt: I was much impressed by the pamphlet. I am glad to hear that my hon. Friend is not entirely reneged from his position and is willing to concede that the B.B.C. might not have another channel.
There is another consideration, even more important, which should prevent the B.B.C. getting another channel. It is something which has not been mentioned today. It is the right of freedom of expression, the desirability of extending the freedom of expression. Monopoly in anything must tend to be bad, but particularly so in ideas.
However worthy and good the motives of the B.B.C, a second channel would have the same interchangeable staff and would be controlled, at the top from Where the tone comes, from where the ethos emanates, by the same people. The heads of the B.B.C. may urge upon their subordinates the utmost individuality and initiative, recommending the widest possible diversity of outlook and approach. But they will not get it, because it is impossible.
Anyone who wants to be promoted in such an organisation must inevitably say, "How would the Director-General like me to present this programme?" "How would the Head of Talks like me to do this?" One cannot have a huge monopoly like this and expect out of it to get tremendous diversity of ideas, outlook and unorthodoxy. Common standards in both programmes would be bound to prevail, and it is clear that

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Pilkington thinks that they should. He has said so throughout his Report.
This would mean that if one of the two B.B.C. programmes decided that a certain type of programme was unsuitable, or "old hat", or that a performer was no good or past his best, the other B.B.C. channel would make precisely the same decision. You do not have to be rich to be a tyrant. You can be very amiable and still be a tyrant. There is no appeal from one B.B.C. programme to another if one is considered to be no good or undesirable by the B.B.C. The outlets of expression would have increased numerically but not in style, content or inventiveness. Nor would there be any greater chance for the unorthodox view to administer healthy shocks to the nation.
I hope that the Government will drop the notion of giving the B.B.C. an additional channel. It is the road towards censorship of ideas however genteel, middle class, humane and liberal the censors are. But if the Government pursue this plan, which will be so damaging to democracy, then more taxation ought not to be levied to pay for it. The licence fee is taxation. Pilkington says that it should be raised, but I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Woolwich, East in his only other dissent from Pilkington. It should not be raised.
The B.B.C, if it gets a second programme, or for that matter to contribute to its existing programme, should be compelled to take advertising. Why are we so mealy-mouthed about advertising on the screen? Advertising itself is not sinful, although what advertisers do may be sinful—but that can be controlled in other ways. The Times lives on advertising. The Guardian lives on advertising. The Catholic Herald lives on advertising. The Church of England newspapers live on advertising. The Salvation Army publications live on advertising. So even does that moral beacon the New Statesman and Nation. All of them have rules about the type of advertising that they accept. The B.B.C. could do the same, and in so doing could operate with great effectiveness to drive out dishonesty and deception from advertising. The fact that one could not see a particular advertise-
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ment on the B.B.C. would in itself be an indication of the worthlessness of the advertisement and its product.
What reason does the B.B.C. give for being so coy about advertising, for being so much above the world? I have discussed this with the present Director-General of the B.B.C. He told me quite frankly that the B.B.C. does not trust the Government, that if the B.B.C. started drawing an advertisement revenue the Government would plunge deeper and deeper into the B.B.C.'s share of the licence revenue, and it would then be forced into the pursuit of a larger popular audience to raise more advertising revenue. This is the only reason of substance that he gave me for refusing to have advertising, or refusing to ask to have advertising, on the B.B.C.
I do not believe that it is impossible for the Government and the B.B.C. to work out an honourable arrangement by which the B.B.C. is guaranteed always a fixed amount of the licence fee and at the end of the year is asked to hand over only an agreed surplus over and above what is needed to improve its programmes and facilities. It would be possible to do this and I see no reason why it should not be done. As we extend into the 'seventies, 'eighties and 'nineties, the country will be asked to pay more and more taxation for television which is totally unnecessary, and which if it can be raised could be put to more serious purposes than providing entertainment.
I turn now to commercial television. The Pilkington Committee, simply on the haphazard basis of people who happened to write to it, concluded that there was general dissatisfaction with the programmes. The Committee conducted no survey, and stopped its examination of programme content in 1960. It really was a trivial approach to a great problem.
The evidence of the Top Ten, for example, shows consistently, without a break, that the vast majority of people able to watch both channels prefer to watch commercial television. It may be wrong of them, but they just do.
My hon. Friend the Member for Woolwich, East quoted polls to show that the nation had understood the implications of the Pilkington Report and understood the kind of new structure

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which it suggested should be set up for I.T.A. in future. Perhaps I might quote as a warning to him a poll which posed this question:
"At the next Election would you prefer to vote for an M.P. who wanted to keep I.T.V. in its present form, or an M.P. who wanted to transfer the planning of I.T.V. programmes to a new authority similar to the B.B.C.?"
Of those interviewed, 59 per cent. said that they would vote for the M.P. who wanted to keep I.T.V. in its present form, and only 26 per cent. said that they would vote for the M.P. who wanted to transfer the planning of I.T.V. programmes to a new public authority similar to the B.B.C. This poll was conducted by the Sunday Times.
Mr. Mayhew: By Mr. Thomson?
Mr. Wyatt: I thought that my hon. Friend would ask that. He must not assume that everybody who disagrees with him is dishonest, and that only those who agree with him are honest, because in the same series of polls in which that was contained there were many results which bore out the opinion that he was quoting from his poll, and the Daily Mail poll is run by an organisation which owns one-third of Southern Television.
Mr. Mayhew: I think that my hon. Friend will agree that there is a difference between established polls such as National Opinion Poll, and the Daily Mail and Daily Express polls which have been going on for years, and a special survey run by Mr. Roy Thomson on the subject of the Pilkington Report.
Mr. Wyatt: My hon. Friend is entitled to make that point, and there might be some validity in it if it were not for the fact that the other questions in the poll conducted in precisely the same survey by the Sunday Times organisation brought precisely the same answers where the questions were the same as did the Daily Mail poll which he quoted. There is no dissimilarity between them. But it just shows that the more questions one asks, and the further one goes into the ramifications, the more confusing and contradictory are the answers that one gets.
When the News of the World conducts research amongst its readers into what part of the paper they read first,
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they say that they always begin by reading the leading article. Anybody who can believe that can believe anything. The British hypocritical attitude is well known, that we in Britain like to think that we are more respectable than we are. If a number of people are asked which they prefer, Auntie B.B.C. or Wicked I.T.V., they answer Auntie B.B.C, and then go home and turn on commercial television.
The members of the Committee did not like commercial television programmes, or what they heard about them. There was no suggestion that they actually watched any of the programmes. So they decreed the setting up of a new I.T.A. and the disappearance of the television companies as we know them. They wish to convert them into film-producing Companies, providing programmes on an uncertain basis to the I.T.A. The programmes may be rejected even then if the I.T.A. does not think that they are up to standard.
But a large edifice of staffs, buildings and studios has already been built up by the programme companies, like it or not. Under this scheme the programme companies would be decapitated and most of their organisations dispersed. This would be an absurd and unjustified waste of national resources. Apart from that, it simply is not possible to plan programmes at all well for a complex of stations if it is all done at the centre. It just cannot be done. This is probably why B.B.C. television has remained woefully inadequate in its service to the regions, and one good reason why it ought not to be allowed to run local radio stations. Making television programmes is an immediate activity. There has to be resilience, quickness of adjustment, and fast rearrangement of programmes. These are all things which cannot be done centrally by one bureaucratic staff telling a lot of other people how to make programmes. Those who plan the programmes must, in the main, make them. One can have some programmes from outside and fit them into one's own schedule, but the basic provider of the programmes must be basically the person who devises them. The B.B.C. has found this to be so, as have all other T.V. stations in the world. One cannot run a newspaper with only freelance contributions. No more can one run a television programme like that.

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What is worse, such a scheme would further diminish freedom of expression. Pilkington says that only the B.B.C. understands the purposes of broadcasting, and there is about a ten-page incomprehensive essay which attempts to set out the purposes of broadcasting. I was none the wiser when I finished reading it than when I began, except that it seemed that everything that the B.B.C. did was O.K. and everything that everybody else did was wrong. The new I.T.A. would have to model itself on this B.B.C. model and so we would get another B.B.C. This new I.T.A. would be forced to make at least 90 per cent. of its own programmes, because no programme contractors would tie themselves to so improbable and tenuous an arrangement as that suggested by the Pilkington Committee.
Much play was made by Pilkington about violence in commercial television. It is true that these programmes may not be the sort of programmes which university professors and paternalistic, benevolent, monopolistic, glassblowers may want to watch, but they provide a quality distinctive from the B.B.C. which pleases the great majority. And since 1960, when Pilkington last examined their content, commercial T.V. programmes are higher in standard, deal intelligently with more serious subjects, and make considerable provision for minorities, provided that these minorities do not refuse absolutely to watch the programmes unless they are in the middle of the peak hours. I do not see why it should be assumed that minorities are people who always find these the only hours in which it is possible to watch a television programme. There are plenty of other hours of the day, and if someone is really interested in something he can watch it at 9.30 just as well as he can at 7.30.
In working for both channels, and I have done so consistently, I have found a growing sense of responsibility in commercial television. There is still much room for improvement but it is improving and considering that it has been at it for a great deal less time than the B.B.C. I think that it has not made such a bad fist of it.
Having said that, why has everybody to be so much protected from what they
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see on the screen? Cannot parents turn the switch off if they think that a programme is unsuitable for their children? Are we such a race of morons that we cannot turn off if we do not like what we see? Are we really at the mercy of television, patterning our lives on it without any other sources to which to turn. I utterly reject this dictatorial concept, which is only another form of censorship. No one enacted that schoolchildren should not be taken to see Shakespeare's "Titus Adronicus", at Stratford-on-Avon, in which there was presented a raped and maimed heroine, a succession of foul murders and a finale in which the body of one of the victims is given to his unsuspecting nearest and dearest to eat at a banquet in the form of a paté.
It seems to me extraordinary that Mr. Richard Hoggart, who championed everyone's right to read the unexpurgated edition of "Lady Chatterley's Lover" should now be so squeamish about what they are allowed to see on the screen. If, in the judgment of sensible people, there is too much violence on television, leading to crimes in the community, then the powers of the I.T.A. should be strengthened to prevent such programmes being shown. It is quite simple. If there were such powers, they should be used very sparingly. The real censor in a democracy should be the individual himself and not a whole set of bodies put over him to tell him what he should or should not do and see. It is unnecessary to overthrow entirely the structure of commercial television to reduce the amount of violence on the screen.
It was here perhaps that the Committee was at its most trivial. It did not attempt to search for a solution of the defects of I.T.V., which are considerable. It shirked its task and simply proposed that it should be turned into another B.B.C. The worst shortcoming of the programme companies is the way in which they were formed. They were given, in the main, to people who already hold powerful positions in other spheres with a judicious admixture of those who are elevated in the social hierarchy. It is quite wrong in my view—here I agree with my horn. Friend the Member for Woolwich, East—that the Press should hold any stake in commercial television

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at all. It militates against honest criticism of the system and of programmes, however much they may attempt to lean over backwards to try to provide fair coverage. But more calamitous that that, it strengthens by its huge revenues from television the power of these vast Press combines in other fields.
The Sunday Times was bought out of the profits of Mr. Thomson's monopoly in commercial television in Scotland. The Daily Herald and Odhams were bought out of the Daily Mirror and Sunday Pictorial's profits from owning 26 per cent. of A.T.V. The News of the World and Berrow's Newspapers are buying up one provincial newspaper after another out of their 25 per cent. share of the profits from T.W.W. The Westminster Press is doing likewise out of the profits of its 7 per cent. holding in A.T.V. The News Chronicle is still making a fortune for its former proprietors, although it no longer exists.
Why is G. C. Thomson's Press group from Scotland entrenched in Southern Television? What is the sense in that and what is the Guardian doing with 21 per cent. of Anglia Television many miles from its base? I could perhaps answer that. Together with the local co-operative societies and Reynolds News, Lord Alexander of Hillsborough and a group of other people, I was concerned in an application to run the Anglia station. We made our application and had an interview with the Authority. We explained to them that for the first time under our scheme almost every household in the area would have a stake in their own television station because co-operative societies are very strong in East Anglia.
Afterwards, I discovered that the whole thing was a farce, that the station had, in fact, been promised to the Guardian group beforehand, because after it failed to get Tyne-Tees station it was told to apply for the next one that came up, which was Anglia, and it was given that. Often the stations were allocated before the applications were formally closed. However, I must in fairness say that Mr. John Woolf and the Guardian have made an exceptionally good job of running the Anglia station. It was complimented by the Pilkington Committee as being the nearest thing in commercial television to the B.B.C.—so it must be very good.
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But it is not only the Press that should have nothing to do with owning commercial television. Those engaged in the distribution and production of films and the owning of cinemas should also be dissociated from it. At the very time when the trend is towards Government attempts to break up monopolies the Government are trying to build them up with the other hand.
Associated British Pictures ought not to be allowed to own 100 per cent. of A.B.C. television. It controls too much of what goes on to our screens already. The same applies to Granada, of which I am a shareholder. It should not be allowed to own 95 per cent. of Granada Television. The Rank Organisation should not be allowed to own a third of Southern Television.
Again, Mr. Lew Grade, Prince Littler, Val Parnell, Howard and Wyndham's Theatre, which already have a very powerful and unhealthy control in the theatrical industry, ought not to have been allowed to add to it by participation in the State monopoly of commercial television, and be put in the position where anyone who tries to compete with them will be sent to gaol.
The way in which programme companies were formed has further diminished freedom of expression as a whole. The outlets of expression have been more and more concentrated in fewer and fewer hands. Although, of course, there has been some window dressing 'by putting in a few lords lieutenants and other such persons into the television companies.
I like Lord Derby very much, but I hope that he will not mind my saying that there was no possible justification, in terms of his knowledge of television or of administration, for his being presented with a 25 per cent. share in the highly valuable T.W.W. He had always struck me as being pretty rich before. Now the Government have given him £4 million or £5 million, just like that. I think that it was too much for them to have given him. Even though he was chairman of the popular Television Council, sponsored by the Conservative Central Office and had to be rewarded with something, I think that £4 million was too much, and even though he is president of five Conservative associations I still think that £4 million was too much.

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I understand that Lord Astor who is a friend of mine, got only 2 per cent. in the same organisation because he chanced to be talking to his Mend Lord Derby at the right moment, and was offered a 2 per cent. cut in T.W.W. That is very nice if you can get it. T.W.W. was a very fishy business altogether. There is a gentleman called Mr. Chapman Walker who arrived from the Conservative Central Office to run it as managing director, and is still on the board.
This is not the right way to deal with public, State monopolies—to hand them out as political rewards to one's friends. It is not worthy of any Government, and I do not believe that it has been done in our history since absolute monarchy finished—theoretically, at any rate. We have given the programme companies to some of the greediest elements in the country, and we should not be surprised that they have put the emphasis on making profits.
The problem of ownership needs to be examined ruthlessly. The programme companies should be compelled widely to diffuse their ownership and control, as a condition to getting further contracts. None of them should be allowed to hold interests in other fields of communication and entertainment. It was a byproduct of this desire for profits which caused the network committee to be set up—the committee about whch we have already heard. I do not want to elaborate on how it works; I only say that I am surprised that the Postmaster-General did not seem to realise that all the subsidiary companies are forced, under their contracts, to pay for these programmes, even if they do not use them, and are, therefore, induced not to make their own programmes but to take the ones for which they have already paid.
This, again, militates against further outlets of expression, and is the opposite to what we were told would happen under the Act. That problem can be handled simply by the I.T.A. sitting in at the meetings of the network committee, taking the chair and deciding how the programmes should be arranged, and seeing that the regional companies get a fair crack of the whip in getting their programmes on to the networks. This is not a very difficult thing to do.
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As the Postmaster-General has said, the problem of profits is a fairly easy one to solve. I would prefer it to be done by fixing rentals for facilities at the end of each year in relation to the profits made by the companies, rather than by trying to work on the basis of a percentage of the gross profits, because there might be a tendency for more and more money to be paid for variety and other artists under this scheme, making it more and more difficult for the B.B.C. to compete, because it could not acord to pay the astronomical sums paid by commercial television. It is a technical and an administrative problem, and I see no difficulty in finding an effective answer.
Broadly speaking, there is nothing much wrong with commercial television which could not be put right with a few radical reforms. Here I agree with my right hon. Friend the Member for Smethwick (Mr. Gordon Walker). The personnel of the Authority should be changed, so that more vigorous men, who use the powers they have, take over. Much of the present trouble in commercial television could have been avoided if the existing powers had been used effectively.
The powers of the I.T.A. should be strengthened and the profits of I.T.V. should be curbed. There should be a diversification of ownership as I have suggested. But we must not destroy the whole thing, because, by and large, it has given the people much of what they want. I cannot understand the objection to giving people what they want. It is becoming a very fashionable thing to say that it is arrogant to give them what they want. Why? If they do not want it they can turn the set off, or look at something else.
I agree that the I.T.A. ought not to have a second channel, any more than the B.B.C. should. If there is to be another channel it should be used to increase the outlets of expression in variety, style and form. If a third channel is to be set up it should be under an entirely new organisation—a public corporation perhaps—empowered to take advertising. Perhaps, in order to placate hon. Members opposite, it could be owned partly by the Government and partly by private enterprise—on the lines of British Petroleum. Whatever it is, however, it must be different from either

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of the existing bodies, otherwise it will not spread the outlets of expression. I am amazed that the Government should have fallen for the proposition that the B.B.C. should have a second channel, in order to bore off the heads of the nation.
The fourth channel should be used to promote the future good of the country. If we have, as proposed, four entertainment channels we shall be spending £160 million a year on television—as much as the nuclear deterrent costs. Some of that £160 million should be used to improve our capacity to survive, as well as to enjoy and appreciate our present existence.
I can see no valid argument against the establishment of a specialised educational service. We are short of teachers at every level, and especially in science. The Russians have ten times as many science teachers as we have. At least we have ten times as many television sets as they have, so why the devil do we not use them? I hope that the Government will think over this problem again.
I hope, too, that they will forget the Pilkington Committee altogether, and will start doing their own thinking. It is the job of Governments to govern, and not continually to shelve their problems on to some commission or committee, to iron out the awkward comers for them, and then to hide behind it when something goes wrong with their relationship with the electorate. It is their job to govern.
Even when the Pilkington Committee deals with technical matters its reliability is doubtful. It advocates colour television. This has been tried in America, but it has not got very far because of the expense of colour programmes and television sets. If an affluent society like theirs cannot stand the expense, why should we think that we can do it more successfully?
I agree with what my right hon. Friend the Member for Caerphilly (Mr. Ness Edwards) had to say about the choice of lines. This choice should have been made much earlier, if a change was to be made. We should not have had to wait for three years, for Pilkington to turn up. Now that this shallow Report has arrived, I hope that the Government will consider the problem again. New
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technical developments are in the offing which could cause a further convulsion in another five or ten years. There are developments in hand which could mean that pictures will be transmitted without the use of lines. By that time we may have laboriously changed to the Continental linage, and we might be very lethargic about changing once again, although it might be the correct thing to do so, because it would be much better for our export trade. If we made a quick change then, as we have left it so late now, we should be able to lead the world in exports instead of lagging behind.
We get as good a picture from our 405-line system as the Continent gets from its 625-line system, because of our local conditions. I do not want to go into technicalities, except to illustrate that even in dealing with them the Pilkington Committee was wrong, as it was in almost everything else it said.
I urge the Government not to be paralysed by Pilkington. They should have made their own decisions long ago. When they finally do so I hope that they will remember that democracy is a many-sided institution, and that we do not necessarily get it by putting the same well-meaning people in charge of more and more institutions. The more widely held are the printing presses and the means of communication of all sorts the greater is the protection to our liberties, and the greater the possibility of new and stimulating ideas, and of the people having a genuine choice of what they really want.
8.8 p.m.
Captain L. P. S. Orr: What an attractive, interesting and intelligent speech we have just heard from the hon. Member for Bosworth (Mr. Wyatt). It is surprising for an hon. Member on this side of the House to find himself almost totally in agreement with the hon. Member for Bosworth. I have often listened to him, but I have rarely heard him put before us such a stately procession of ideas and solid, decent thinking.
Like him, I must declare an interest. [Interruption.] I judge from the comments from hon. Members opposite that the old canard may still be alive that I belonged to a sort of pressure group

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which was active at the time of the introduction of commercial television, the innuendo being that I was acting in my own financial interests. At the time of the passing of the Television Act, and all that went before it, I had absolutely no financial interest or prospect of financial interest in commercial television, or in anything whatsoever to do with it.
In the meantime, however, I have become a director of a company in Scotland which is engaged in the manufacture of radio and television sets. My interest in this matter is as a manufacturer. Absolutely no part of my income comes from commercial television, unlike the hon. Member for Bosworth. I have absolutely no share in any television company or in any firm of public relations practitioners who may act for them. In view of the comments made in the past—I have suffered from them and they have recently been raised again in the House of Lords—I thought it right to make that point. I am speaking as a manufacturer, and the manufacturing industry has a tremendous stake in what we now decide.
May I make one general comment about television in this country? From Pilkington, and from a lot of what has been said in the Press and elsewhere, one would think that we were dealing with a television service which was really rather bad. In point of fact, television in this country is the best in the world.
Mr. Sydney Silverman: That is not saying much.
Captain Orr: It may not be saying much, but we ought to remember, as the background to everything we do, that we have certainly the best television in Europe.
If one looks at the number of people who watch our television, of our families about 90 per cent. have television sets. Of the 10 per cent. who do not have sets there are quite a few who cannot have them because of geographical reasons. There are quite a few who cannot have them because of their way of life, and I would guess that only about 2 per cent. or 3 per cent. do not have television because they do not think the programmes are worth watching.
If we look at the European television we see a very different picture. I have
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here some figures relating to Europe which may interest the House. They represent the number of television licences per 100 inhabitants. In this country the figure is 22. In Austria it is 2·9; Belgian 8·9; Czechoslovakia 7·9; France 4·9; Federal Germany 10·3; Eastern Germany 5·9; Holland 8·8; Italy, 5·9; Norway 3·1; Spain 1·1; Sweden, 176; Switzerland 3·5. Suppose we take Spain—although perhaps Spain is not a good example because there the people are very poor. They cannot afford television and the Spanish Government have restricted the production of television sets. Let us take Switzerland with a figure of 3·5. That means that nine out of ten people in Switzerland do not have television sets because they think that the programmes are not worth looking at.
Mr. Roy Mason: It is the geography.
Captain Orr: It is not entirely the geography. If we look at the figure for Sweden, where the geography is much the same, we see a different result.
In Switzerland, as in so many European countries, a number of people do not have television sets because the television service is so bad. I was talking recently to a group of young French students who were fascinated by our television service. I asked whether they looked at television in France and they said, "Oh, no, it is not worth looking at. It is something which the Government use to instruct us about agriculture in Brittany. It is not like your television, which is something that everybody wants." That was a great tribute to the television service in this country, both the B.B.C. and the I.T.A., and the people who produce the programmes.
When we are discussing the criticisms of the service do not let us run down television in this country as if we have something which is bad. We have the best in the world. Let us not, for the same ideological reasons which were so well expressed by the hon. Member for Bosworth, wreck the finest system in the world. That does not mean to say that there are not justifiable criticisms. I will make one general point on the question of criticisms. There is a great deal of

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justification for criticising the two organisations, the British Broadcasting Corporation and the Independent Television Authority. Ever since the days of Lord Reith there has grown up, and we accept it almost without question, the notion that the Director-General is the chap who runs the show. In each case the Director-General has become a sort of dictator, certainly in the B.B.C. and very largely, I think, in the I.T.A. as well. This is wrong.
I believe that we should make the most careful study of the people we ought to have in each of these two organisations. The choice of who should be chairman and who members of the Corporation and the Authority is very much more important, in my view, than any of the rules which we lay down for them. I consider it vitally important that these bodies should be able to act with strength and that they should be able to control the Directors-General. There are certain things which might strengthen them. We must be careful to select persons who are dedicated to the medium and who know something about it; people who have a sufficient knowledge to be able to stand up to Directors-Geneoral. At all costs, we must see that they are not put in a position where a Director-General has the power of patronage over them.
To me it seems odd that members of the Corporation or of the Authority, or members of the Advisory Committees, can broadcast and derive part of their income from the very bodies which they are meant to control. I think this is wrong. I would rather pay them a reasonable salary instead, because there is no doubt that they are largely in the power of the Director-General and that is something which ought not to be allowed. It is much more important than any rules which we may lay down. Soon we shall have to choose a new Chairman for the I.T.A. and it is very important that he should be a man of stature, a man who knows something about the business and not simply someone who has retired from some other walk of life, either politics or public life, or the Civil Service or who is a retired general, for example. That is not the sort of person we want. We must have someone who has been engaged in the business and knows something about it, and about
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industry generally, and who knows how to act as a member of a board of directors and can control his managing director.
Having said that, let us come to some detailed criticisms which have been made. I consider that the hon. Member for Bosworth was first class on the subject of triviality. Of course it is true that a great number, probably the majority, of the programmes put out on television, both by the B.B.C. and I.T.A., are trivial. But the vast majority of what one reads in the newspapers is trivial. The majority of what one hears in ordinary conversations is trivial. When human beings communicate with each other through any medium the communications are bound to be trivial. The very nature of the medium of television and the putting out of so much stuff hour after hour will result in a great deal probably the majority, of it being trivial.
Triviality however is a matter of human judgment. The very night when Sir Harry Pilkington went to his famous Press conference and announced his view about triviality I was driving in my car and at about seven o'clock—I forget the precise time—I switched on the car radio to the B.B.C. programme and I heard a talk about the artificial production of rhinoceros milk. I know now that it is impossible to milk a rhinoceros, and use a stool at the same time. Sir Harry Pilkington and others thought that this was undoubtedly very learned and great stuff, but it struck me that quite a lot of people in this country would probably think that very trivial.
Although I think "Juke Box Jury" is very trivial, people who listen to it and argue about it take it extremely seriously —as seriously as Sir Harry Pilkington would take the artificial production of rhinoceros milk. Triviality is a matter of opinion. I do not think we should become too excited about triviality—it is indigenous—but I agree that there is fair criticism that there is not quite enough serious content in any of the programmes. This is largely our own fault here in Parliament. We have laid on both authorities the requirement to be absolutely impartial in everything—that no television producer in the B.B.C. or I.T.A. shall have any opinion about anything. There is no editorial freedom so every programme has to be carefully

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balanced in case anyone might be offended.
That is frightfully stultifying. When one goes into any serious subject, philosophy, metaphysics, religion, or politics, one is up against this inhibition. I think that we should move towards a greater editorial freedom and there should be a more liberal approach to these things. By all means require a balance and impartiality overall. By all means insist on an hour at the end of each week for a right of reply for anyone who feels that his view or his organisation has been misrepresented or not heard properly, but for goodness sake let us get away from too much restriction in that sense. We shall get more and better serious programme content as a result.
A great deal has been said about violence, and there have been some very bad cases of violence. We ought to seek to control it. I do not think we can do that by writing anything into the Television Act or the B.B.C.'s Charter, or laying down any sort of rule. A great deal of violence, the sort of thing we see in Robin Hood and cops and robbers is perfectly ordinary and unexceptionable. Unless we get to the position in which everyone has to be nice to everyone there must inevitably be some violence.
Undoubtedly there have been one or two very bad cases. There was an appalling case in "Oliver Twist" and another the other night in "Z Cars". Here again the character of the people at the top of the organisation is what matters. If there is good control and good sense this sort of thing will not occur. It often occurs through parsimony when a contractor buys a series from America and feels that he must put on every single one of the items in the series.
There has been a great deal of criticism of the network. Much of it is justified, but I think that the right bon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr. Ness Edwards) criticised the network in a peculiar way. He said that it was our fault in Parliament for passing the Television Act. That is very unfair to Parliament. In point of fact the evils of the network arise from the lack of com-
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petition, but that was the result of the Government decision not to allocate sufficient channels to I.T.A. to allow it to put contractors in competition with each other. It also stems from the theory that we must have national coverage.
Whether that was right or wrong when introducing the first commercial network, it is certainly something we have to think carefully about now when introducing any other network. The theory that we must have national coverage is extremely wasteful. What we want in future is to see in the rural areas and within the smaller areas the B.B.C. and one good commercial station. In the greater centres of population— this is looking at the long term and I am coming to the question of the next four or five years, which is a different matter —we want to see more channels available for the people to look at.
We should not insist on holding up the production of extra channels in the big centres until we can provide national coverage. Not only is that extremely wasteful in money, but it is very doubtful if competition in those smaller areas such as Northern Ireland, Wales, East Anglia would be viable anyway. If we get away from this business of national coverage I think we shall strengthen the position of the local station as against the commercial contractor, as against the network contractor, as against the big fellow. If we have competition in the bigger centres we shall strengthen the finances of the local contractor and clip the profits of the bigger companies. That is what we want to see in the long run.
There is another very important reason for departing from the idea of national coverage. For a long time I was a member of the Postmaster-General's Frequency Advisory Committee. I think that I was one of the first members. During that time I learned a great deal about the shortage of wavelengths and about the fact that frequencies are one of our great national assets. The ether through which all this works and upon which the whole future of broadcasting, television communications and every thing else depends, is at present as congested as the roads of this country. A concession to use any particular frequency or channel of

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frequencies is like gold dust. It is not often realised that in extending coverage over the nation the last 10 per cent. or 15 per cent. of the population covered requires as many frequencies as does the first 85 per cent. Therefore, in our future thinking we must be careful not to insist on national coverage, which is wasteful in money, wasteful in men and resources and wasteful in frequency, and that is even more important.
I shall not get into a technical argument with the right hon. Member for Caerphilly. We have had many in the past and I very much doubt our ability to agree. Much has been said about profits and of course they have been very high. It is fair to make the point that my right hon. Friend and many others made when this venture started. The Government and many others were doubtful about whether it would succeed. It was a considerable commercial risk. Many people withdrew when the great losses were made and many people had to put their hands deep in their pockets again in order to remain in.
Looking back, I feel that the contractors of the I.T.A. did a great service to the nation. They took a great risk. They have certainly recouped themselves, and I do not think that we can blame them for having done so. But there is no doubt that something must be done, and there have been constructive suggestions. My right hon. Friend's proposals and those of the hon. Member for Bosworth are very interesting.
It ought to be borne in mind, however, that although one can talk about profits in the past, one must be careful about talking about profits in the future. There may not be any cow there to milk, because we have to undertake this massive operation of going on to 625 lines, and it must be remembered that it will take four or five years. Some people estimated that it will take longer, but I think that it will take four or five years to make the change-over and before 625-line operation becomes profitable and there are sufficient people looking at 625-line sets for there to be an advertising revenue. If we put that task on the present contractors, as I shall argue with the Minister that we should, to be done out of their profits,
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then the chances are that there will be losses rather than profits in the future.
Mr. Ness Edwards: Is not the hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that the cost of the duplicated transmission will fall not upon the programme contractors but upon I.T.A.?
Captain Orr: I do not accept that for a moment. Possibly the right hon. Gentleman thinks that there is nothing involved but duplicating the transmission by putting up a transmitter. I am arguing that we shall need fresh programmes on 625 lines, with new studios, new equipment and new programme material. It is nonsense to say that the whole cost would fall on I.T.A. The contractors must accept a very small return for four or five years. This is quite a different operation from that in 1953, when it was simply a question of taking a set and putting on it an adapter costing £5. This is quite different. One must have a new dual standard set which is very expensive or an extremely expensive adapting device, and I doubt whether anyone would do that. For a number of years, putting on new programmes on 625 lines, there is likely to be not only absence of profit but probably loss, and we must be careful about that in our future thinking.
Mr. W. R. Williams: I agree with the hon. and gallant Gentleman, but may I ask whether he agrees Chat there have been excessive profits in the past few years and that he does not want this to occur in the future?
Captain Orr: Yes. I agree entirely with the hon. Gentleman. There have been excessive profits, and I do not want that to continue in future. But in our consideration of what to do about it, we must remember that there may not be profits in the future.
The change to 625 lines is a contribution which the present contractors ought to be made to make in the national interest. They have had a very good haul, and now there is a chance for them to repay the nation. The present contractors should do it. In the post-1964 arrangements there should be a definite requirement, a direction and an obligation, placed upon them—I refer to the big contractors, not those in the

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regions—to produce at least as many hours on 625 lines as they produce on 405 lines, with completely new programmes. I believe that that is a fair requirement to put on the present contractors. That is not asking too much of them.
Now the industry. The hon. Member for Bosworth referred to the unnecessary delay caused by the setting up of the Pilkington Committee. In the industry we said three or four years ago that the technical facts were known. There was a remarkable agreement within the industry, to begin with, with the I.T.A. and the B.B.C., and with the Television Advisory Committee, toegther with the G.P.O., about the necessity for going over to the new standard. We said then that if the industry was not to run into very bad times a decision had to be taken then.
My criticism of the Government is that that decision ought to have been taken then. Probably never in the whole of our history was there a more unnecessary Committee than the Pilkington Committee. All the judgments the Committee was asked to make were political judgments. They were questions of taste and opinion. The House is a much better forum than such a Committee.
During all this time the unfortunate industry has been decimated. It is not generally known in this country just what a blow has fallen upon the radio industry as a result of this long delay, coupled with the operation of the Government's stop and go policy, from which our industry suffered more than any other. The industry which a few years ago comprised about fifty companies has now been reduced to five. It truly has been decimated. Something must be done. At one time the radio and electronics industry was one of our strongest assets for going into the Common Market. It is now in a very weak position. The retailers attached to it are in the same position. Small retailers oll over the country have (had to go into other businesses. Many of them have had to give up (business. Many of them are hanging on toy a thread soiling distressed merchandise. Action must be taken.
I believe that if certain things are done the industry can be great again. First,
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we must have 625, and have it quickly. The suggestion that perhaps the Government were going to give the new channel to the Corporation and invite the Corporation to change to 625 and that nothing much would happen on the independent side has produced the oddest thinking about timing. The first B.B.C. stations took four years each to build. The first commercial station was built in one year. The second was built in a year and a half. Now, when it is suggested that there might not be competition, it is proposed to build the first of the new stations in two years and the second in four years.
If we built the first independent transmitters in one year and and a half years, why on earth should it take two years and four years now? This is not good enough. The Government must either tell the Corporation, "This is not on. You must get on with this business faster", or they must say to the Authority,"You have to go very quickly out to tender for your 1964 concessions so that those who are going for the concessions afterwards will be able to get ahead with this if the Corporation cannot do it."
We must not accept this timing. We want to see a new station in London in 1963. It can be done. We want to see a new station in Birmingham in 1964. I am convinced, and almost everybody in the industry who knows about these things is convinced, that this can be done and that we ought to get on with it.
I am sorry that the hon. Member for Bosworth has gone from the Chamber, because I should like to have drawn to his attention one good suggestion in the Pilkington Report. The suggestion was that the new sets should be sold free of Purchase Tax. That, I accept, is a shade unrealistic, but would it not be possible for my right hon. Friend to persuade the Treasury to agree to a reduction in Purchase Tax on the new sets so as to make them no more expensive than the old ones? I think that is feasible, and it is even possible that the Treasury would agree.
Engineering advances have gone on, and we have now got to the position where the new dual-standard sets can be sold at about £10 or so more than the existing ones. That is a tremendous achievement by the industry, and very

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few people realise how tremendous it is. A cut of £6 or £7 per cent. in Purchase Tax would tremendously facilitate the move over from the old 405 to the new 625. I hope that my right hon. Friend will consider that suggestion.
The right hon. Member for Caerphilly spoke of duplication. This is a technical subject about which one could argue for hours. The answer lies somewhere in between the two extremes, because if we duplicate everything we lose a great many channels. The number of frequencies required to duplicate on national coverage is enormous, and otherwise one is left with having the new dual-standard sets for a very long time—
Mr. Ness Edwards: The hon. and gallant Gentleman must surely know that there are far more channels in Band IV and Band V in which to do the duplication than there are in Bands I and III. That is elementary.
Captain Orr: The right hon. Gentleman does not seem to have grasped the elementary fact that even in Bands IV and V, frequencies are like gold dust, and must not be squandered. It is extremely important to strike a balance between complete duplication all over the nation, which is very wasteful of these important frequencies, and the necessity for duplication in the bigger centres. The truth lies somewhere in between. To use the fewest number of channels for the maximum number of people seems to be the guiding principle.
The main thing is to speed up the new programmes—get them on the air as soon as possible. It is a gigantic engineering task. Very few people who talk about it really understand just what a massive operation it is. Neither the B.B.C. nor the I.T.A. nor the G.P.O. have the necessary personnel, engineering material, and other resources for it. The industry should help, and I think that it can. We can make a very considerable contribution to that end, and I believe that we would be willing to do so in the interests of speed. One thing that the G.P.O. can do, and it is important, is to see that the linkage is provided as soon as possible. I hope that the G.P.O. has started on that, and
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will get on with it as fast as it can; it would be a tragedy if other things went ahead and we were held up for lack of intercommunication.
The G.P.O. has circulated standards which are not unreasonable. But one thing on which I may find myself in disagreement with a great many hon. Members is about colour. It seems to have been generally agreed that we should get into colour and have colour programmes on the air as soon as we can, and I agree. But we must be very careful about how we do it. There is at present no agreed European colour standard and I honestly believe that before we get into the provision of colour for the ordinary viewer in this country we should have an agreed standard within the industry and with the G.P.O.
Then we should negotiate a standard for Europe because there is the gravest danger that if we rush into colour too soon, as a result of pressure from the Press or anyone else, we may find ourselves in precisely the same difficulty as exists over the 405-line standard. We should try now to get an agreed European colour standard. I do not suggest that to do this would take too long. However, it is a necessary prerequisite, certainly for the industry, our exports and so on.
Provided that all these things are done, I am confident that the industry can make the same sort of contribution it has made in the past. Although we are almost at saturation point in this country in the provision of television sets, the export opportunities are really enormous as long as we have the right standards and the correct basis here at home. I truly believe that the industry can be built up if we now have a sense of urgency and speed. It is within the Government's power, considering how the industry has been treated for many years, to help in this process.
There are many ancillary subjects I had intended to discuss but since many hon. Members wish to speak I will not detain the House. Regarding pay television, my view is that if anyone wants to pay his money into it, let him. Let us have an experiment and not license anything for too long. Let us not use frequency space to do it in the first instance. This space is like gold dust and

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we should, therefore, conduct an experiment for a brief period on wire to see how it gets on.
There are unlimited prospects for educational television. Television can be a valuable tool in the hands of the teacher and we should at least reserve the necessary frequencies for such a television channel in the future. I will only say, on local broadcasting, that the B.B.C. idea is appalling and that the Pilkington Committee should have supported it I find incomprehensible. We have three national programmes already and to suggest that there should now be another network of sound services, with perhaps a little local news and weather, seems a shocking waste of frequency space.
The Government must invite commercial people to do it—or universities, local authorities or someone truly local —or say to the B.B.C, "Go away, think again and produce a better plan". Otherwise, the Government should reserve a frequency for future consideration. One of the three by all means, but for goodness sake not this extraordinarily wasteful duplication.
I had intended to say something about Telstar and international broadcasting. I will merely say that we should get in on this ourselves. Let us not merely be the paying customers—paying through the nose to the Americans. Let us consider communications to Africa and Asia and let us have a big stake in the future so that we may reap the benefits. Out of international communications—satellite communications—will come gigantic profits compared with those from commercial television and we should, therefore, have a share in them.
Since many hon. Members wish to speak I regret having spoken at length. I hope that some of my remarks will be useful in the next stage in the development of what is at present, and will be in the future, the best television in Europe.
8.50 p.m.
Mr. Emlyn Hooson: I enjoyed very much the speech of the hon. and gallant Member for Down, South (Captain Orr). I disagree with the hon. and gallant Member, however, in his summary dismissal of the Pilkington Report. Whatever criticisms can be
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made of it, that Report expresses the disquiet which most thinking people have felt about the television service, and one great contribution which it makes is to underline the worst evils of the present television system.
It is a fair criticism that the tone of the Report is objectionable in parts This is due largely to a failure to distinguish between morality and good taste. Be that as it may, however, it seems to me that most of the criticisms made by the Pilkington Report of our present television set-up are valid, although in some instances one might arrive at those conclusions by a different route.
In its evidence to the Pilkington Committee, the Liberal Party suggested that the third network should be given to a separate corporation, separate and different from the B.B.C. and I.T.A. I entirely agreed with the view expressed by the hon. Member for Bosworth (Mr. Wyatt) on that kind of proposal in his valuable contribution to the debate. It was the proposal of the Liberal Party that the separate corporation should derive its revenue from advertising, controlled cenrally, and should take programmes from both the B.B.C. and the programme producing companies in independent television. I suggest that the Postmaster-General might reconsider that suggestion.
If, however, that suggestion is not followed, we welcome the decision of the Government to give a second network to the B.B.C. If one overcomes one's natural reaction against the excessive whitewashing of the B.B.C. in the Pilkington Report and even bears in mind what the hon. Member for Bosworth said of the B.B.C.—incidentally, if the hon. Member were to appear more often on B.B.C the B.B.C.'s TAM rating would go up—I believe, that it is the view of my Party and of myself that the Corporation has performed an invaluable service to our country, both through sound broadcasting and television. It has been a remarkable example of the discharge of a public duty by what is virtually a public trustee. We think it a good thing that the third network should go to the B.B.C. if our own idea of a separate corporation is not accepted.
In his book on television, Mr. Robin Day was right when he said that in the past, when discussing television and

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broadcasting, we had been too concerned with a concept of "freedom from"—freedom from interefernce, and so on. We have been preoccupied with the question of controls. But we have now reached the stage when we can be more concerned with the concept of "freedom to". That is, we can now take a more positive view of freedom; freedom to develop and to experiment, with greater freedom of expression. I would like to see in the second programme which the B.B.C. is to operate more freedom, more variety and more independence allowed to producers and the like.
The B.B.C, with its natural concern for impartiality, is a little too concerned with the concept of "balance" in every single programme. Provided that it is anounced as such—namely, as a programme in which a certain viewpoint is to be put over—I do not see why one could not have a biased programme on B.B.C. It should, however, be announced as such and a proper balance should be maintained over a period. This would mean more independence of thought and ensure greater freedom of expression in the B.B.C. itself.
There is one other point I should like to make before I leave the question of the B.B.C. and that is that we take the view that it is very important to preserve if possible the complete independence of the B.B.C. and to maintain its present financial position of sole dependence upon licence revenue. I know that the B.B.C. itself attaches very great importance to this. It would seem to me to be a pity if the B.B.C. had to depend upon Government grant from another source. One of the first contributions which the Government can make would be the abrogation of the present Excise fee of £1. I cannot believe that the addition of a second B.B.C. programme would necessarily cost twice as much as the present single programme. Surely some kind of saving could be made.
I should like to come now to the central point in the Pilkington Report, and that is the question of the future of I.T.V. in this country. I have already said that we accept a great deal of the criticism made of I.T.V. in the Pilkington Report. Under the present set-up of I.T.V. four valid ciriticisms can be made. First, it is a commercial monopoly
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created virtually by act of State. Secondly, because of the nature of this monopoly, advertisers inevitably must have a great effect upon programmes; and whereas we cannot eliminate the effect of advertisers' influence on programmes we can at least limit it.
Thirdly, excessive profits are being made out of this valuable monopoly, created—certainly indirectly—by the Legislature. Fourthly, far from providing competition, the I.T.V. companies have certainly not competed with one another, due largely to the networking arrangements.
If, in fact, there is to be only one commercial television system in this country my party would very much prefer to see Pilkington Recommendation 43 rather than the present set-up. There can be no doubt whatever about that. What really concerns me about that is that if, in fact, we have one commercial television network then we preserve the commercial monopoly, and if we do that we avoid the benefits which could come from commercial competition itself. Because it would still remain a commercial monopoly an authority akin to the B.B.C. would have to be created for it, and that is what, as I understand it, the Pilkington proposals would amount to.
I was greatly attracted by the argument put forward in a leading article in the Guardian on Saturday last. It really suggested that if the Government are intent on providing a second network for the B.B.C. and a second one for commercial television we can afford to look at this whole problem anew. The question posed by the Guardian was: why should there not be two competing commercial television systems, one on the present lines, but modified, and the other on the Pilkington lines? That, first, would do away with the commercial monopoly. It certainly would bring crashing down the present profit levels which result from this monopoly. Secondly, of course, it would avoid the possibility of wastage in the present commercial television set-up. Thirdly, it would introduce healthy competition between the commercial systems themselves.
This proposal has its political attractions, too, because we might be faced with a long battle over changing over the

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present system, and if the Government are proposing to give a second network to independent television then there is a great deal to be said for branching out anew on Pilkington lines and amending in a much less vigorous form the present set-up of I.T.V.
If the suggestion is followed so that there would be two commercial television programmes, then the view of my party certainly is that there ought to be a stronger element of public interest represented in the present commercial set-up, and that can only be done through a body like the I.T.A. If one does not follow the Pilkington recommendations for I.T.V., I suggest, first, that I.T.N., which has contributed a great deal to the measure of success that has been achieved in commercial television, should have far greater independence than it has at present. It should have financial independence of the programme companies. It could come directly beneath I.T.A., and be completely independent of the programme companies. It should have some control or say over the time at which its topical programmes go on the air. I know that a programme has been put out recently by I.T.V. which was excellent, but was put out at six o'clock in the evening at a time when very few people can have been viewing. It would also be very important to break up the present networking system of the independent television organisation, and I think that that might well be helped by having I.T.A. and I.T.N. represented on the networking committees.
I am very limited in time, but I should like to deal with one other matter, and that is television as it affects my own country of Wales. First, I wish to say how much I welcome the proposals of the Government and the recommendations of the Pilkington Report in so far as they affect Wales, but I would ask the Postmaster-General to have another look at independent television in Wales. I think it is a mistake to think that we in Wales would be satisfied with one all-Wales programme, one national programme run only by the B.B.C. There is a great deal to be said for having Wales regarded as one region for I.T.V., also, and there is a great deal to be said for amalgamating the Wales Television Company and the Welsh side of
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T.W.W. so that we have a complete choice of programmes in Wales as between independent television and the B.B.C.
We in Wales pay the same for our licences and for the detergents which are advertised, but our petrol costs us a little more, so we are entitled to the same kind of choice as is available in England.
9.3 p.m.
Mr. J. A. Stodart: I do not want to spend any time in dealing with what has been mentioned a good deal in this debate—whether or not the B.B.C. or commercial television has had the bettor record during the last few years. I am grateful to the hon. Member for Manchester, Openshaw (Mr. W. R. Williams) for providing an opportunity for the voice of Scotland to be heard following that of Wales and for allowing me to put some of the particular problems about Scotland that are mentioned in the Pilkington Report.
The first thing I want to mention is the criticism that has been made of the relationship between Scottish Television and the Press. Mr. Roy Thomson controls The Scotsman, the Weekly Scotsman, the Evening Despatch in Edinburgh, the Aberdeen Press and Journal, the Aberdeen Evening Express, and the Highland News of Inverness. He also controls Scottish Television, and I estimate that that newspaper chain is probably read by about one-fifth of the newspaper reading population of the country. I think it only fair to say that in this case there is no sign of any abuse. Perhaps that is because no particular policy or gimmick is identified with Mr. Thomson as is the case, for example, with Lord Beaverbrook. All the same, I think that the Press interests of Mr. Thomson, together with his control of Scottish Television, have brought him to a pitch where he has an undue concentration of power over public opinion north of the Border.
I have seen Mr. Thomson on television declaring that his main interest and aim in life is to give happiness to people through providing them with work. I suspect that he must employ many more people in his newspaper undertakings than he does on Scottish Television, and I think that the Pilkington Committee was entirely justified in

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recommending that he should shed one interest or the other. I should have said chat for the benefit of the majority in this case he should shed his interest in Scottish Television.
I want also to deal with Scotland's position in regard to broadcasting and television. It has been suggested that in Scotland we should have a Scottish Broadcasting Corporation and cut ourselves tree from the B.B.C. I think it is indisputable that we could not possibly shoulder the increased costs of operating a separate broadcasting system, the administration and the engineering, if we were to go our own way, and, although there may be disadvantages in working closely with London, I am sure that in this case the disadvantages would be far greater if we went into isolation.
The National Broadcasting Council for Scotland, which was set up under the 1952 Charter, was obliged to exercise control "with full regard to the distinctive culture, interests and tastes of the Scottish people". In those days that related to sound. The new proposal, which is very much welcomed in Scotland—that the National Broadcasting Council should assume similar responsibilities for television—brings in its wake financial problems, because television is very much more expensive to run than sound. Scotland is one of four regions which at the moment work at a deficit. The others are Northern Ireland, Wales and the West Region. The income that Scotland gets from the Postmaster-General is £500,000 less than that received by the West Region. Because of its geography, extensive area and so on, its expenditure is greater. Therefore, we end up with Scotland having the largest deficit of all.
What are the special needs and considerations in Scotland? We have our own established Church and our own religious programmes. We have, as do the Welsh, a programme which is beamed to the Gaelic-speaking community. We have our own sporting interests. Although we take our hats off to Tottenham Hotspur, I do not think that team inspires quite the devotion that Heart of Midlothian or Hibernians in the City of Edinburgh do. None of these subjects are any use as network programmes. I think that all this adds up to special financial needs.
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I think that agriculture is the only industry which has for many years enjoyed its own regular programmes on sound radio. Each region has it own programme. It is difficult to say how much broadcasting has been responsible for bringing about better farming, but I am quite sure that it has had a good deal of responsibility for doing just that. The scope and the emphasis on farming are different in Scotland from what they are in England and Wales. Farming is more important to the economy of Scotland than it is to that of England and Wales, and it surely forms one of those interests which are distinct and which are, under the 1952 Charter, catered for in sound radio.
In television, however, things are not so good, and this applies both to the B.B.C. and to commercial television. Apart from Grampian Television, the commercial farming programmes are almost entirely networked. A programme called "The other man's farm" deals almost entirely with farming in England. The B.B.C. is not much better in that nearly all of its programmes originate in Birmingham. I suggest that out of the weekly television farming programmes Scotland should provide the network with perhaps half a dozen programmes a year, and that on half a dozen other occasions it should be able to opt out of the network.
I have compressed by speech to as great a degree as possible. I accept that extra money is involved in what I have suggested as being the special needs of Scotland. But I do not shudder at an increase in the licence fee, considering that the suggested figure would put us firmly in the centre of the scales operating in the countries of the Six—and that is a fairly topical note on which to end this contribution.
9.13 p.m.
Mr. W. R. Williams: We are nearing the end of a very good debate on a very important issue. I thought that the debate in another place was also very good. I do not know how far my right hon. and hon. Friends will go with me in this, but it occurs to me, as we have now left behind the old battle on the question of commercial television v. the B.B.C. or some other form of corporation, that this House may decide that, in the

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national interest and in order to get the maximum benefit for our people out of this powerful medium, we should be able to bridge some—I do not say all —of the differences between us so that we can concentrate on ends which seem to be common to both sides of the House and on the means by which to achieve them.
I think the time has come when we have to use much of our resources in the development of this medium, and that we shall be in such great competition with European nations and with the United States in scientific development that the B.B.C. and the I.T.A. will have to co-ordinate as well as act in healthy competition. I hope that I have not dirtied my copybook by saying that, but it must be the natural consequence of this debate and the trend of thought among hon. Members on both sides of the House.
Coming to the debate itself, I thought that the Postmaster-General gave us an excellent start. He made a good speech. He seems to have a genuine desire to try to resolve the more controversial issues on basic arguments rather than to accept pressure from any groups or from any quarter of the House. I thought that the right hon. Gentleman made an important declaration, and if we had had a similar declaration when we last discussed this important media some of the decisions that were taken then would not have been taken. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman meant what he said, that that spirit will continue and that we shall see the result of that type of thinking in the White Paper which, I understand, is to be published later this year.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Smethwick (Mr. Gordon Walker) made an excellent and comprehensive speech. How he expects me to have anything to say on the various aspects of the subject absolutely beats me. My right hon. Friend dealt clearly, concisely, and forth-rightly with all the matters about which we have come to some sort of an agreement among ourselves, and he spoke with his usual candour and made it clear that there are decisions and issues which need a good deal more study and examination, and in this I entirely agree with him
We have also had some brilliant and witty speeches from some of our hon.
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Friends on the back benches. Some of them perhaps should not have been there today, but I was reminded of the saying attributed to the late Earl Lloyd George about his old colleague in the Liberal Party, now the right hon. Member for Woodford (Sir W. Churchill). In passing, may I say that the way in which this doughty old warrior has been fighting himself out of his present sticky corner has once again been a source of pride and admiration to us all and we wish him a speedy recovery to take the seat now occupied by the hon. and gallant Member for Down, South (Captain Orr). This is what Earl Lloyd George said:
"The trouble with Winston is that he thinks that when he has made a brilliant and witty speech he has solved the problem."
I hope that that comment does not apply to anybody who has spoken today.
I add my tribute to the Chairman and members of the Pilkington Committee. I think that they deserve it. They have spent nearly two years getting down to some of the fundamental problems connected with this media. I do not think that they have been given the credit which they deserve. I do not think that they have been given the credit which is due to them for the high ideal they had of the purpose of broadcasting in a modern world. I think that for a change we have had people who have examined the issue from a high moral point of view, and I do not deprecate their viewpoint.
Turning to the Report, it is a massive historic document which has been carefully studied, is being carefully studied, and will continue to be carefully studied not only in this House and in this country but all over the world, and will become a classic. That does not say, however, that I am prepared to accept all the Pilkington Report, hook, line and sinker. I do not consider it infallible. I think that it sometimes fails even to reach logical conclusions based on its own arguments. For instance, I should have thought that the logical conclusion of the Pilkington Committee on whether or not we should have commercial television was whether the profits motive was compatible with public service. The whole of its argument would lead one to believe that it did not think that it ought to continue.

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But when we come to its recommendations, we find out that not only does it say that it can continue but that it can expand if there is a fourth channel available for it.
On the question of the relationship of the Press with television, I should have thought that the logical conclusion of its argument would be to say unequivocally that there was no room for Press participation in television broadcasting. It has not said that. Therefore, I cannot regard the Report, which has a good deal of inconsistency and which fails to reach logical conclusions, as infallible. It leaves reasonable room for doubt and a good deal of difference of opinion.
I have no doubt at all that the Committee has pinpointed some very serious faults and disabilities in I.T.V. I think that they have existed for a long time. Many people tried to bring them to the notice of the Government, but nothing happened. I think that as a result of the criticism made by the Pilkington Committee, I.T.A. has been shaken to its very roots and that those who were arrogant and boastful are now penitent. The only question that worries me is whether it is the case of when the devil is sick, the devil a holy man would be. I certainly hope that the effect that the Report has had on it will shake it up permanently.
Having said that, however, I deplore the nasty, crude, irrational Press comments which have flooded into the Committee as a result of its pronouncements and recommendations. I do not think that I have ever before read such vitriolic comments about any body or any issues since I remember reading anything at all. The Press organs in this country, with one or two exceptions, ought to be really ashamed of the attitude which they have taken on the Pilkington Committee's Report. The Daily Sketch said:
"If the Committee think you are enjoying yourself too much—they will soon put a stop to that. Coronation Street, Emergency Ward 10 and all the others will be blacklisted."
That was a wicked travesty of what the Committee has said. But Mr. Cadbury excelled them all in his vilifications. The trouble is that all that he succeeded in doing was to bring discredit on a name which has been honoured in British public life; and social welfare.
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I do not want to repeat any arguments that have been used if I can help it, because this is not a debate in the normal sense of the term. As far as I can see, it is an exchange of ideas, and it is no use my working myself up into any heat or emotion in dealing with something that is not here. I do not believe in putting up Aunt Sally's just to have them knocked down.
It is not a very good thing to publish a massive Report of this sort without, at the same time, publishing the evidence that was available to the Committee and upon which it based its decisions. It may be that the Committee has reasonably, accurately and fairly reflected the evidence placed before it. It may be that it has come to the right conclusions, based on the evidence. But I would prefer to have an opportunity of reading the evidence, of interpreting it according to my inclinations, and then of coming to a decision and treating the decision in the light of my reaction to the Report.
I cannot say whether there is any foundation to support the allegation made by Sir Ivone Kirkpatrick. He alleged that the attitude attributed to the I.T.A. in various passages of the Report was not in accordance with the evidence, and that the Committee's account of the character and the plans of independent television programmes, as given in the Report, was incorrect and misleading. That is a serious allegation, and the Government ought to produce the evidence as soon as possible.
Yesterday, I received two weighty reports from Granada Television, of Manchester, giving me the evidence it had presented to the Committee. There were some substantial points in that evidence. Granada is a good company, from the production point of view. I say that although I have never appeared on its programmes, and I do not expect ever to do so because I have not a photogenic look about me. What surprised me was that I bad not been made aware of those substantial points from my reading of the Pilkington Committee Report. Above all, I would give a lot to see the evidence put forward by my hon. Friend the Member for Woolwich, East (Mr. Mayhew). I should like to know whether there is any difference between what he has said here tonight and what he said to the Committee.

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I turn now to technical aspects. I am no electrician or technologist, but as far as I can see there is little difficulty, technically, about the conclusions of the White Paper concerning the change from 405 to 625 lines and the use of new H.F. bands to provide spectrum space for any additional programmes. But my right hon. Friend the Member for Caerphilly (Mr. Ness Edwards) shook me a little today when he told the House that there is not a lengthy future for the 625 line and he thought we ought to be going in for the 525, because Telstar and the Americans operate that line. There was a word in the document from Granada indicating that the 625 line was likely to be outdated. I have tested these points with someone who ought to know and I am told that there is not much substance in them.
I think it important, and my right hon. Friend will appreciate this, that the 625 line is operated on the Continent, and that in any exchanges we are likely to have in television, colour television or broadcasting it will mostly be with the people on the Continent. In my opinion it will be necessary to do a great deal more research on this matter because it will be very costly. I do not think hon. Members appreciate just how costly. But when the bill comes in they will realise, and so I suggest that we must try to save money by engaging in conjoint research and action. I suggest that that should be one of the objectives of the Postmaster-General.
I am 100 per cent. in favour of the B.B.C. getting a third channel. I do not equivocate about this. I am a firm believer in the need for a public service corporation, the B.B.C, being the dominant partner in British broadcasting. My hon. Friend the Member for Bosworth (Mr. Wyatt), perhaps it was partly in fun, denigrated the B.B.C, but I think he went beyond what was reasonable. I have a high regard for the B.B.C. and I know that that feeling is shared by most people in this country. Because of the contribution it makes to the supply of news, education and information, and above all because of the basic integrity which is a feature of the B.B.C. I know that the Corporation has commended itself to people overseas and so I am absolutely in favour of the
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B.B.C. getting a third channel. I hope that the Postmaster-General will stick to his decision in that matter despite anything that might be said by hon. Members on the benches behind him, or anything which may be said by my hon. Friend the Member for Bosworth.
There has been a reference to a fourth programme, but I do not think that we should start to discuss a fourth programme until we have discharged our responsibilities in relation to the other programmes which we are trying to perfect and in relation to the transfer to a new line, the adoption of U.H.F., and so on. I think that it would be unreasonable, unwise and impolitic to talk about a fourth programme until such time as we know the consequences of introducing a third channel. If we do introduce a fourth channel, I am absolutely against it going to commercial television. If it is to go anywhere it must go to educational and cultural purposes. If my hon. Friend the Member for Barnsley (Mr. Mason) had been able to speak in this debate he would have made a great contribution on the possibilities of a fourth channel to deal with educational problems.
Recommendations 27 and 31, of course, specially appeal to me as a native of the Principality. The new arrangements may not be completely satisfactory for all the interests in Wales. I am not sure that anything would be satisfactory to all of them, but I am satisfied that an excellent start has been made. I hope that Welsh hon. Members will take this thought back to the authorities and that in their anxiety to cater for this service they will not forget the Welsh exiles who enjoy so much some of the programmes, cultural, musical and the rest, which come from Wales to England. If the Authority in Wales drops that I shall apologise to the House for having troubled it about those paragraphs.
In regard to my hon. Friends who thought that some of us were flagging when they wanted to be galloping, all I say is that I do not think there is a substantial difference of opinion between us. The difference is so small as to be almost negligible. When I compared the speech made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Smethwick with that of my hon. Friend the Member for Woolwich, East (Mr. Mayhew) I could not

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detect any substantial difference between them. I sincerely hope that they will now agree with us that this debate and the debate in the other place have been well worth while and it is not unwise now and again to take time to think out some of these difficult controversial problems because we do not lose anything by thinking over some of them.
I am glad that the Postmaster-General has been able to agree on some issues already. I do not take any exception to the Government and the Postmaster-General wanting to reserve their position on some of the bigger problems. We expect them to tackle the I.T.A. vigorously. In the spirit of the debate today they will appreciate, as we do, that there are many faults to be corrected in British broadcasting. We hope that they will not be mealymouthed with I.T.A. and that whatever alternative proposals they make will be based on the fact that they make it perfectly clear to I.T.A. that it must exercise full authority in future, and if it cannot break down monopoly in the middle of the structure and improve its programmes— do away with violence and triviality— we promise the right hon. Gentleman that we shall be very much more vigorous in the debate on the next White Paper.
9.39 p.m.
The Assistant Postmaster-General (Miss Mervyn Pike): We are nearly at the end of a day which for a great many of us seems to have started a very long time ago. We have had a fascinating debate, and we are all extremely grateful to hon. Members who have made such thoughtful and stimulating contributions.
The purpose of the debate, as was said by the hon. Member for Manchester, Openshaw (Mr. W. R. Williams), who sat down so promptly and with such courtesy to me, has been to collect our thoughts and to develop our arguments so that we could crystallise our ideas perhaps for battles which lie ahead. Hon. Members therefore will not wish me to attempt to try to answer all the points which have been raised, but rather to try to bring together the strands of the debate, and some of the thoughts of those hon. Members who have not been fortunate to catch your eye, Mr. Speaker
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—because there has been considerable discussion in public and in private on this important issue since we have had the Pilkington Committee's Report.
It is difficult to try to say anything new or to give a fresh look to ideas which have been so freely and fully expressed. I want, first, to pay my own personal tribute to Sir Harry Pilkington and his Committee. I think that it is true to say that no group of people can have worked with more zeal or with a greater sense of dedication to their task. We are deeply grateful to them. The hon. Member for Bosworth (Mr. Wyatt) suggested that the Pilkington Committee had not looked at television since 1960, but I remind him that in paragraph 9 of the Report, the Committee say,
"We have also all systematically watched and listened to many programmes with the object of assessing the quality and range of the service offered."
I think that we can be sure that they have done their best to give their full attention to this important problem.
The hon. Member for Openshaw asked about the evidence. The evidence amounts to 1,200 pages, and printing is being pushed forward as rapidly as possible, but it looks as though we cannot promise publication before mid-September; and this will not include the oral evidence and therefore will not deal with the point which he made about Sir Ivone Kirkpatrick.
Many speakers in the debate, both here and in another place, declared a financial interest in broadcasting. When trying to assess the power of this medium and to represent the views of the uncommitted and the publicly less articulate members of society, I think that we should all force ourselves to recognise the extent of our own personal bias. This is a field in which each one of us secretly regards himself as being a bit of an expert. Broadcasting is, of course, an aspect of human activity in which most of us feel that good commonsense and a working knowledge of what makes society tick are the best tools with which to form a balanced judgment. It is, in fact, a field in which there are considerable pitfalls, a field in which "I know what I like" imperceptibly tends to become "I know what is best" Paradoxically, I would say, our sense of personal humility in face of the anxiety generated by a recognition of the power

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of this medium for good or evil too often leads to the assumption of an excessive paternalism, a too-arrogant assumption of our duty to protect the individual from himself.
I must admit that my own training and abiding interest is in social psychology. As a result, my own personal bias is towards an analytical approach to social problems. I am in sympathy with those who, like Baroness Wootton, regret that there has been so little scientific analysis of this problem. I appreciate the value of the researches already in hand, and of course I recognise the overwhelming difficulties and the time factor involved in covering such a wide and diverse subject in this way. But whatever our approach, and even if we are not always satisfied that the hand that rocks the cradle will always control the knob wisely, we must recognise that the impact of television is circumscribed by the four walls of the home. Although this may in some cases heighten the realism, at the same time, in general it conditions and it cushions the impact of programmes, particularly on young people.
Further, it is an undoubted fact that our reaction to television is conditioned by its continued use. The effect, even of the most dramatic events, is diluted because we have been so freely and often so excessively exposed to this magic. I am thinking, for example, of my own reaction to last week's Telstar T.V. programme. To be sitting here in the Palace of Westminster watching President Kennedy's Press conference was to participate in, I suppose, the most significant surge forward in world-wide communications of all time. It was a great moment. It was a great achievement. But one had seen the President so often before on telerecordings that somehow one's sense of wonder was diminished. This leads me to believe that, although we must be cautious, we should not be over-anxious in the face of the pervasive power of T.V. on the fabric of our society, because perhaps after all it may not be such a devastating force in a society which is as mature and as sophisticated as ours.
At the same time, we are all aware of the influence of T.V. on the home. We sometimes tend to overlook the influence
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exerted by the family as such on television. In the post-war years it has been an important unifying factor in a large number of families, where it has brought the focus of family life back into the sitting room.
The most persistent and the most serious charge probably levelled against television is triviality. My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Down, South (Captain Orr) dealt with this at some length and to good effect, I thought. This charge should be judged first in the light of the limitations necessarily imposed by the number of channels available. In addition, not only is the impact of television affected by the background against which it is absorbed, but this very background in itself becomes a serious limiting factor in the creation of demand for new programmes.
Television is a mass medium. In most cases it is a mass medium which is required at peak viewing hours to hold the attention and to entertain simultaneously every age group, from wee Johnnie, who should have been in bed long ago, to Granny, who is probably very set in her ways and will never go to bed.
Although the family as a unit may produce this demand for the most acceptable common denominator of entertainment, as individuals, we have a right to expect from this medium of all media a widening of our horizons and an enrichment of our minds. This is why the educational network is so particularly important. We are considering this. I will not go into the arguments fox and against it. I think that we all recognise the importance of the educational value and the mental enrichment of this medium.
The achievement of this goal of widening our horizons and enriching our own minds and lives would bring great benefit to our society. In addition, and per-haps more important, it would enable us to make a significant contribution to the progress of mankind. I am sure that no one who saw the B.B.C. film "Television and the World", which was referred to by my hon. Friend the Member for Putney (Sir H. Linstead), would under-estimate the potential of this power. We can all imagine the tremendous uses to which it can be put in the world at present.

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What I am trying to say is that we all want good broadcasting. I believe that in this field it is true to say that Gresham's Law works in reverse and that good entertainment will drive out bad, provided that a real choice is available. It is our responsibility to make certain that a real choice is available.
It is in this context that I should like to say something about networking, to which my right hon. Friend, the hon. Member for Bosworth and my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Down, South referred. In the Government's view, this is one of the main questions which needs looking into in the context of the Pilkington Report. There has been a good deal of criticism of these arrangements and some disquiet has been expressed by the I.T.A. itself and also by certain of the programme companies. There seems little doubt that the present rigid arrangements unduly limit any real competition amongst the various contracting companies in the provision of programmes.
The position is well summed up in paragraphs 538 to 544 of the Report. The Report first points out that there is a given amount of permitted viewing time to be filled and that no less than 15 per cent. of it should be originated by each company, major or regional. The independent television news bulletins, which are taken by all the companies, account for some 5 per cent. of the time. The remaining balance, namely, about 80 per cent. of viewing time, is shared by agreement between the four major companies.
As the Report says, the supply of network programmes to the minor companies and payment for them are governed by a series of standard agreements between them and the major companies, and for this purpose each minor company is "affiliated" to a major company. What happens is that all the smaller companies pay a part of their advertising revenue to the major company to which they are affiliated, in return for the right to show items from the network programme.
But the amount which the affiliated companies pay to the major companies increases as their advertising revenue grows, however many or few items they take from the network programme. We
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think, with Sir Harry Pilkington's Committee, that these arrangements do not encourage minor companies to initiate programmes beyond the minimum 15 per cent., as we should like them to do because, if they do, the proportion of advertising revenue that they must pay to the major companies is not reduced.
As the Pilkington Committee said in describing the effect of these networking arrangements:
"… the same programme items can be seen all over the country simultaneously; and for the most part, they are. In effect, independent television provides, for most of the time, a national programme."
This system of networking was, par-haps, an inevitable consequence of the way in which the I.T.A. network has developed historically, since, naturally, the regional companies were given contracts covering the largest areas of population and found themselves in an entrenched position. But that this should be so is clearly not in accordance with the aim embodied in the Television Act of 1954. It is clear, too, that the I.T.A. originally envisaged the networking of programmes, not in a restrictive sense but as a means of promoting competition between the programme companies, for, in its first Report, published in October, 1955, the Authority recorded the expectation that if there were to be free trade among programme companies in buying and selling programmes a real measure of competition would result. The Authority expressed some concern to Sir Harry Pilkington's Committee about the present position.
Therefore, while accepting that I.T.V., like most television services in other parts of the world, must depend to a large extent on some networking arrangements, the Government intend to examine very carefully, in co-operation with the I.T.A., means by which the present system can be made less restricted. There have been many suggestions that the Authority itself should play a more prominent part in planning and organising the networking of programmes, and that is certainly one idea that we will look at carefully.
There were, of course, many others, and particularly technical, points that I could go into, but if I started on technicalities with the right hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr. Ness Edwards) and my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for

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Down, South, I think that I should be crushed between the two of them. Anyway, all of us would probably be no wiser than before, and the issue might be even mote badly muddied than at some points we felt it was. I do not think that at this time there is any point in my trying to go over the problems that lie ahead.
I think that, as the hon. Member for Openshaw said, the salient part of this debate has been the very large measure of agreement that we have found between us. I realise that the differences are very real ones and that, therefore, the arguments that lie ahead may be all the more serious and prolonged for that very reason. At the same time, I believe that this debate has served an extremely useful purpose in clearing all our minds on so many of the controversies that were behind us and, clearing our minds for the decisions that lie ahead.
I am sure that all of us are very conscious of the importance of this debate at this time, and that we are all conscious, too, of the significance of any decisions that will be taken as a result. Therefore, in summing up, I have found it difficult to give, perhaps, a cogent expression to the essence of the problems involved; they are problems that are at once deeply profound, highly technical, and charged with strong personal, moral and political convictions.
There is, of course, a wide field for speculation between those who take the view that television is a sort of moral therapy to restore what they regard as a weak and degenerate public taste and those who see it solely as a means of light entertainment and escape from the realities of life. Then there are those, the devotees of our modern technology, who believe that mankind can enjoy all the benefits of continuous technological advance without having to pay for any compensating disadvantages. Only a little less ingenious are those people whom I might call the devotees of organisation. They are the people who substitute the redemptive organisation for the redemptive gadget.
Nowadays advancing technology can make nonsense of any organisation or administrative blueprint within a matter not of years but of months. Hon. Mem-
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bers who have spoken about the effects of Telstar had that very much in mind. As I said, the majority of hon. Members, and the wider public, prefer a more realistic attitude to these problems. They prefer to identify themselves with the views of those who accept the fact that the individuals who compose society are in themselves the arbiters who will finally determine the standards which can be achieved.
Material and organisational instruments are indispensable, and a good tool is always preferable to a bad one. However, we recognise that in listless or malicious hands the finest instrument is either useless or a means of positive evil. The debate has been concerned mainly with realism and it is in this spirit that our arguments and discussion will go on in the future. I believe that, in this spirit, acceptable solutions can and will be found.
9.58 p.m.
Mr. Francis Noel-Baker: I am sure that the Assistant Postmaster-General will not chink me discourteous if I tell her that some of us found her winding-up speech profoundly unsatisfactory. It bore very little relevence to the earlier speeches. The debate has been, from some of our points of view, unsatisfactory because only a few back benchers, excluding a Liberal hon. Member, were able to get in. Despite this, the points that were made were not answered by the hon. Lady.
An even more important point is that it is clear from what has been said by the Postmaster-General and the Assistant Postmaster-General that the Government have not made up their mind on what they propose to do about the future of broadcasting in Britain. They have not told us what they intend to do in the meantime, although a number of urgent problems need tackling. The Pilkington Report has revealed an important fact—that no one is satisfied with the present arrangements concerning I.T.A.
Some of us would like to see I.T.A. reorganised out of all recognition while many of us agree that changes in its personnel and methods must be made. We should like to know what the Postmaster-General intends to do between now and the time when the Government

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make up their mind on the Pilkington Report. Will they re-organise the Advertising Advisory Committee of I.T.A.—a totally ineffective body in which vested interests have been over-represented and consumer interests are not represented— which is doing a thoroughly unsatisfactory job, as today's debate has shown.
What do the Government intend to do on the urgent problem of tobacco and cigarette advertising about which there has been a dramatic report by the Royal College of Physicians? There has also been a report from the Advertising Inquiry Council, with which I am connected and about which there is tremendous public feeling. Is action to be taken on that Report? What will be done about the faking of television commercials, about which private enterprise in America has taken very much more drastic action than we have done?
There are a number of unanswered problems which are very urgent and which cannot wait until the Government make up their mind about the implementation or otherwise of the Pilkington Report and about which reference has been made in many of today's speeches.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved,
That this House takes note of the Memorandum on the Report of the Committee on Broadcasting. 1960 (Command Paper No.1770).

OLD FOLK, CARDIFF (SURVEY)
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.— [Mr. Hughes-Young.]
10.0 p.m.
Mr. George Thomas: I wish to raise a subject of major concern in every community throughout these islands: that is, how to care adequately for the ever-increasing number of elderly people who are living amongst us. Obviously, our greatest anxiety in this matter concerns the old folk who live entirely on their own. I have been appalled at instances of old folk who have been found ill after days of lying unattended in their own homes.
A serious defect in our Welfare State is the utter lack of reliable information concerning the scope of this problem. No machinery exists whereby actual
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statistics are made available giving the numbers of old people living alone in city, town or village. No one has a statutory obligation to undertake a survey to obtain these figures. Welfare committees of local authorities give a first-class service in their own field in most areas, but they have neither the financial resources nor the manpower to undertake a door-to-door survey to find out and to register the names of old folk living alone who have special needs.
I understand that in Liverpool and Bristol, and one or two other progressive areas, a special survey of the needs of old folk in general has been undertaken, but I am not sure of the extent to which this has been done by local authorities or by the voluntary agencies. In the City of Cardiff, we have undertaken a pilot survey of our own. It is because I believe that that survey has a lesson for the whole country that I raise the matter here tonight.
We have sought to bring the voluntary agencies and the statutory bodies in Cardiff into co-operation. So that we may have a reliable guide to the magnitude of our problem in a city of roughly 300,000 inhabitants, we undertook a pilot survey in two fair-sized areas, including two large new housing estates, in Ely Racecourse and in Fairwater, Cardiff. Both of these happen to be in my constituency.
The survey was undertaken by the members of two youth clubs, the Trelai Youth Club, and the Waterhall Youth Club. I cannot pay too high a tribute to these young people, who readily gave up their leisure time to plod from door to door seeking the basic information which we needed.
These two youth clubs have proved once again the high quality of our youth today. They have made news, not by getting into trouble but by dedicating themselves to serve other people. We hear a great deal when youngsters get into conflict with the law, but it is encouraging to know that when an appeal on the basis of idealism and service is made to youth we never fail to get a response.
Two young schoolmasters in the City of Cardiff, Mr. Derek Rees and Mr. Trigg, provided the leadership for these youngsters. In so doing I believe that they have pioneered what may well be a

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new cause for our welfare services. The city welfare youth organiser is Mrs. Margaret Craddock, the wife of my horn. Friend the Member for Brad-for, South (Mr. George Craddock), and I am glad of the opportunity to pay her a tribute in this House for the splendid part she has played in the youth work of the City of Cardiff, and, in particular, for the inspiration which she has given to the young people concerned in this survey.
Three key questions were asked by the young people at each house visited. First, "Are you a pensioner?" Secondly, "Are you living on your own?" Thirdly, "Do you need help or visitors?" Our survey was in no way directed to finding out the financial circumstances of the old folk. This, we believe, is a matter for the Ministry of Pensions and National Insurance, the National Assistance Board and others. We were concerned with solving the cruel problem of loneliness amongst old people in crowded cities, and to meeting other needs which they may have.
The survey soon proved to us that the needs were far more extensive than we had anticipated. Here are some typical cases. Mrs. H., 81 years old, help needed with shopping; Mr. and Mrs. N., aged 80 and 86, two very lonely people needing help badly; Mr. H. very lonely, unable to go out, needs help with shopping; Mr. S. needs help with garden. There were 12 cases of people just wanting someone to talk to them.
I understand that in some areas local authorities employ a warden whose sole job it is to call on old people and to care for them. I had this morning a letter from an old-age pensioner in Ely, in Cardiff, saying this is so in Weston-super-Mare.
The first question I wish to address to the Parliamentary Secretary, whom I congratulate on his appointment, and whom I am so glad to find in his first Adjournment debate in his present office—
The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health (Mr. Bernard Braine): Second.
Mr. Thomas: Second? Well, I still congratulate the hon. Gentleman, and I hope that he will do a good job, particularly for the people whom I am mentioning.
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Will the Minister circularise local authorities to encourage the appointment of wardens on a full-time basis for following up the work undertaken by such organisations as these youth clubs? I believe that people who are aware of the need of the old folk in their community would gladly go to their aid, but they must have the need proved for them. I hope that we shall be able to take the measure of the need in every area of the country.
When the Minister replies I hope that he will reveal the plans of his Department for blending the voluntary services with the statutory organisations. I have in mind the way we have acted in Cardiff, for every case of need we have unearthed has been sent to the Medical Officer of Health for Cardiff, who has a register, which is growing all the time, a register of old folk on whom the welfare workers should call, and this register is at the disposal of the churches and welfare authorities in the city. None of us can measure the extent of voluntary work already being done, particularly by the churches and chapels, for those who are able to give nothing in return, except their gratitude.
I believe that if the Minister will support the idea of a national survey, to find out how many of our old guard now stand in need of loving care and attention, he will be doing something that will remove a blot from our current Welfare State. I want to pay tribute to our South Wales Press—the South Wales Echo and the Western Mail—for the way in which it has supported this survey and encouraged people to cooperate.
I realise that we cannot legislate for every need of human kind, for there are needs for fellowship and friendship, for company and for acts of kindness in which we have to leave to the good spirit of our people. But, even while I recognise that, I believe that there is far more suffering amongst old people than we realise, and that, in view of the increasing number of old and ageing folk in our community, this is a subject to which the House is right to give its attention.
I hope that I shall hear from the Parliamentary Secretary tonight that he is aware of the problem and is anxious to match his cognisance of it with deeds.
10.12 p.m.
The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health (Mr. Bernard Braine): I am sure that the whole House will be grateful to the hon. Member for Cardiff, West (Mr. G. Thomas) for providing the opportunity to discuss this important subject, and for introducing it with such an interesting and sensitive speech. May I too say how much we appreciate his efforts in helping to focus attention on the needs of old folk, especially those living alone, who may need special help?
I think that we are all agreed that one of the tests of the worth of a society is the extent to which its stronger members are aware of the need to care for the less fortunate, the weak, the infirm and the aged. The existence of what we call the Welfare State does not absolve any of us from our duty in this regard. It was Lord Beveridge who reminded us, some years ago, that the problem of helping the elderly in our society
"—is not one for uniform treatment. It is as variable as it is large and growing. It calls for services of many kinds … it has not been solved by the National Insurance Act."
At the outset, I should like to put the question raised by the hon. Gentleman into perspective. All our information indicates that the majority of old people are able to support themselves with the ordinary range of help available to the community at large. The majority are not a problem group, and most of them, as I think we all know, would resent any suggestion that they are. We also know from a large number of surveys which have been carried out in recent years that the majority, whether living with relatives or on their own, are helped to do their shopping, household chores and the like, by their relatives. This is as it should be, but we know, too, as the hon. Gentleman reminded us, that there are some who are not helped in this way, and who are not reached by the various services which exist, that there are gaps in our social provisions and that these vary from locality to locality.
Here, perhaps, I should remind the House that while living alone increases the vulnerability of old people to misfortunes of one kind or another, it is not necessarily an indication of need, for
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elderly people need not be lonely living alone if they have a circle of friends. On the other hand, a person can be desperately lonely living in a crowded household if his special needs are neither understood nor met by those around him.
Moreover, we are faced with the fact that the numbers of old people are going to grow, particularly the numbers of the very old and frail, who, of course, make the heaviest demands on our welfare and health services. It is a sobering thought that during the next twenty years the numbers of those aged 65 and over will increase from 5·6 million to 7·6 million, while those aged 75 and over will increase from just over 2 million to nearly 2·9 million. This means that during the next twenty years the rate of increase for those aged 75 and over will substantially exceed that for the group aged 65 and over. The House will appreciate that these figures have very wide implications indeed for our social services.
If there are gaps in our present social provision for the aged, how can they be bridged? That was the question the hon. Gentleman has raised tonight. It cannot be done by pushing leaflets through letterboxes. It is the crux of the problem that some frail old people may not know what they need, or how to get it. What is required then is personal contact with someone who really knows what the old person needs and how that need can be adequately provided.
How best can we organise contacts of this kind? The hon. Member has referred to the work of the Cardiff Youth Service. Before I say anything about this, perhaps I should warn against generalising from the particular, or arguing that what is necessarily suitable for conditions in Cardiff is right for the rest of England and Wales.
It might be helpful at this stage if I described the existing machinery for bringing help of various kinds to elderly people who for one reason or another have need of it. First, we have a very wide range of statutory services centred round the general practitioner. Working with him are the home nurses, health visitors, home helps and social workers. Between them, these trained and experienced workers should be able to identify those old people who need special help.

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Supplementing them we have a wide range of voluntary services, to which the hon. Gentleman rightly paid tribute, which have been developed steadily year by year. Regular visiting, meals on wheels, the keeping of a kindly but, I hope, always unobtrusive eye on these elderly people helps them to maintain independence in their own homes and to combat loneliness. Here I pay tribute to the National Old People's Welfare Council, which has been most successful in promoting these visiting services. There are now nearly 1,700 local old people's welfare committees in England and Wales which co-ordinate the work of organisations and individuals in this field. Tremendous effort is devoted by the Council to the training of voluntary workers so that when they are visiting they are able to recognise the needs of elderly people, who should be more readily aware of the statutory services which they can call on in case of need. The information which the hon. Gentleman has given us tonight points to the need for a really effective visiting service in his own City of Cardiff, and I hope that the efforts that he has been making will help to promote that.
It is self-evident that in the task of identifying need we must secure the closest possible co-operation between local authorities and voluntary organisations. The hon. Gentleman asked me what we are doing about this. My night hon. Friend called a conference of statutory bodies and voluntary organisations last April. His purpose was to try to thrash out what needs to be done in this field and encourage a much greater degree of co-operation than has existed up to now, and to do this in the context of the ten-year plans for local health and welfare services which they had previously been asked to prepare.
That was followed by the issue of Circular No. 7/62, which drew the attention of local authorities to the very welcome assurances by voluntary organisations that their work could be expanded. It asked them to give fresh thought to the part which voluntary organisations could play in the development of domiciliary health and welfare services. Last month, my right hon. Friend called a further conference to spread the gospel over a much wider field; representatives
548
from no fewer than seventy organisations were present.
Mr. Douglas Houghton: Can the hon. Gentleman say whether the National Assistance Board was represented at these conferences? I ask because my hon. Friend, in his most admirable speech and survey of this problem, did not mention the Board. There are 1,800,000 homes to which the Board's officers are going in order to give supplementation. We have heard a great deal about the additional services they render in cases like that. Can the hon. Gentleman say where the Board comes into this?
Mr. Braine: I stand to be corrected, but I do not think that the Assistance Board was represented at these conferences. I will look into that point, however, and communicate with the hon. Gentleman.
What my right hon. Friend had in mind was that in drawing up their ten-year plans the local authorities should tell the voluntary organisations precisely what help they would like to receive from them, and that the voluntary organisations, in their turn, should say not only what help they could give but what they were ready to undertake. Obviously, there will have to be machinery for the joint inter-change of information and ideas and the joint preparation of plans.
The hon. Member for Cardiff, West is really pushing at an open door in this, for what my right hon. Friend envisages is a partnership between the statutory and voluntary services, both to fill the gaps in the services for the elderly that now exist and also to meet the challenge of the rapidly rising numbers of old people in the next two decades. That partnership will be an integral feature of the ton-year plans for health and welfare which, in turn, are intended to supplement the Hospital Plan.
The hon. Member suggested that youth clubs should be asked to undertake a survey similar to that conducted in Cardiff. That is an interesting suggestion and could be useful, but I think that we would have to examine very carefully what the Cardiff survey has achieved before one could go any further. It is important to be quite clear what the purpose of such a survey is and what results it can achieve.

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We share the hon. Member's opinion that surveys are very important. In fact, they are one of the main means of identifying and assessing needs. They are bound to vary considerably in type and aim, ranging from sociological studies carried out by experienced social workers to the more modest survey of the kind which has referred to, which might properly be called an inquiry to find out which elderly people in a particular locality need special assistance, such as help with housework.
Without casting reflection on the Cardiff youth clubs, whose enterprise and public spirit I wish to commend, I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will agree that it is important to ensure that those who carry out these surveys have the necessary skills and experience to ask the right questions and to interpret the answers correctly. Broadly speaking, I would not think that youth clubs could be expected to undertake a survey of sociological significance, but they might be able to help in the more limited kind of inquiry I have mentioned.
I believe that young people could help in another way. As we all know, a little help given at the right time may save a great deal of trouble. For example, there are moments when to keep the garden tidy, to wash the curtains and to hang them up again, or to run an errand, can relieve an old person of an enormous load of worry. In many areas, young people are helping in this way and I would like to see more of it.
Even so, I must emphasise that whatever help is undertaken by youth clubs or organisations or individuals there should be the closest co-operation between them and the local authorities in order to ensure that appropriate work is undertaken by the right people, that there is no duplication, and that any help found to be necessary is properly co-ordinated. It must be for each local authority to decide what sort of inquiry is needed in its own locality, or indeed whether any inquiry is needed at all. It does not follow that an inquiry of the Cardiff type would be suitable or needed in all areas.
As long as these principles are followed we would welcome any survey or inquiry which would contribute to the knowledge about the needs of old folk in a particular area. Such surveys are
550
continually being carried out by people inside and outside both the statutory and voluntary services. Good planning depends upon reliable information, and these surveys are an indispensable source of the information we need.
What is important is that they should be carefully co-ordinated and properly carried out, otherwise they may antagonise those whom they seek to serve and make it difficult for those who can bring help. Indeed, the report to which the hon. Gentleman referred brings out the fact that there are some old people who are extremely difficult to approach in these matters and who have to be approached in a very understanding and knowledgeable way if the right result is to be achieved.
I turn now to the hon. Gentleman's suggestion that local authorities should be asked to appoint special officers whose jobs should be the organisation of the care of old people. The hon. Gentleman will be aware that we already have chief welfare officers, or medical officers of health in charge of welfare departments in local authorities, who are responsible for organising the care of the elderly. On the other hand, if the hon. Gentleman is suggesting a voluntary person who would act as a warden for the elderly in a particular locality, I would warmly welcome this. It would depend on local conditions, but there is scope far a great deal of experimentation on these lines.
Mr. G. Thomas: I hope that the hon. Gentleman is not forgetting that medical officers of health can only deal with cases which are brought to their notice. I am anxious about the old people who live alone and who would never be discovered unless we looked out for them.
Mr. Braine: This is the kind of thing to which the new emphasis which is now being given should be directed. I take the point made by the hon. Gentleman. I do not think that there is any room for complacency on this score. I am delighted that the hon. Gentleman has raised this matter tonight. We in the Ministry of Health appreciate that a great deal needs to be done. As I have said, we have laid the foundations for a considerable expansion of services. What is now needed is development and expansion to fill the gaps.

551
Perhaps I might summarise the steps that we are taking to provide for this expansion. First, health and welfare authorities have been asked to prepare ten-year plans for submission to my right hon. Friend by the end of October. Secondly, local authorities and voluntary organisations are embarking on joint studies of needs in the health and welfare field and on the preparation of schemes to meet them. Thirdly, surveys of one type and another, some by statutory authorities, some by voluntary organisations and some by outside agencies, are under way.
Thus. I hope that by improving the machinery by which we can ascertain need, and by expanding the services to meet that need, we shall improve the provision for the support of the elderly in the community. Nevertheless, I think that I should emphasise that if the task is to be tackled effectively we shall need the voluntary organisations and all the help that we can get from people of all ages in every walk of life. This is why I welcome the initiative which the hon. Gentleman took, together with the Cardiff City Council and the churches in Cardiff. We have heard tonight how their joint effort in developing. I understand that they are to meet again in conference to decide future action, and I am
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sure that the whole House joins me tonight in wishing them well.
10.29 p.m.
Mr. A. V. Hilton: I am sure that we all echo the sentiments by the Parliamentary Secretary. We are indeed grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, West (Mr. G. Thomas) for raising this matter. I confirm what was said by my hon. Friend about the good work done by this group of young people. I wish that as a result they had got their names into the headlines of the newspapers, just as people do when they kick over the traces.
These young people have done a first-class job of work in carrying out this survey, but we did not really need a survey to remind us of a problem with which those hon. Members who live amongst their constituents are familiar. It is a problem which exists not only in Cardiff but in all the big towns and cities.
The Question having been proposed at Ten o'clock and the debate having continued for half an hour, Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
Adjourned at half-past Ten o'clock.

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  Colonial Development Corporation
KENYA
  Hospitals
  Hospitals
TRISTAN DA CUNHA
  Refugees
  Refugees
ADEN
  Constitution
  Constitution
UGANDA
  Lost Counties
  Lost Counties
KENYA AND UGANDA
  Administrative and Teaching Staff
  Administrative and Teaching Staff
PUBLIC BUILDING AND WORKS
  United Services Museum
  United Services Museum
  Underground Garage, Abingdon Street
  Underground Garage, Abingdon Street
  Trafalgar Square (Public Meetings)
  Trafalgar Square (Public Meetings)
  Richmond Park
  Richmond Park
  St. James's Park (Pedestrian Crossings)
  St. James's Park (Pedestrian Crossings)
  No. 10 Downing Street
  No. 10 Downing Street
  UNITED NATIONS (CONGO)
  UNITED NATIONS (CONGO)
  KATANGA (UNITED NATIONS FORCES)
  KATANGA (UNITED NATIONS FORCES)
  CATTANI COMMISSION
  CATTANI COMMISSION
  DISARMAMENT
  DISARMAMENT
SCOTLAND
  Road, Eriskay
  Road, Eriskay
  Seaweed (Research)
  Seaweed (Research)
  Road, North Uist
  Road, North Uist
  Mackenzie Committee (Report)
  Mackenzie Committee (Report)
  Jetty, Eriskay
  Jetty, Eriskay
  Electricity Supplies, Western Islands
  Electricity Supplies, Western Islands
  Water Supplies, South Uist
  Water Supplies, South Uist
  Outer Hebrides (Water Supplies, Roads, Piers and Jetties)
  Outer Hebrides (Water Supplies, Roads, Piers and Jetties)
  South Uist Estate
  South Uist Estate
BRITISH ARMY
  B.A.O.R. (Maltese Newspapers)
  B.A.O.R. (Maltese Newspapers)
TRANSPORT
  Old People (Cheap Travel Facilities)
  Old People (Cheap Travel Facilities)
  A.303 Road, Yeovilton
  A.303 Road, Yeovilton
SHIPPING
  Troopships "Oxfordshire" and "Nevada"
  Troopships "Oxfordshire" and "Nevada"
  Commonwealth Countries (Subsidies)
  Commonwealth Countries (Subsidies)
SHIPBUILDING
  Commonwealth Countries (Orders)
  Commonwealth Countries (Orders)
MINISTRY OF DEFENCE
  Polish Ex-Regulars
  Polish Ex-Regulars
  EUROPEAN ECONOMIC COMMUNITY
  EUROPEAN ECONOMIC COMMUNITY
  GENERAL NORSTAD
  GENERAL NORSTAD
  GENERAL LEMNITZER
  GENERAL LEMNITZER
  JAMAICA (INDEPENDENCE GIFTS)
  JAMAICA (INDEPENDENCE GIFTS)
MINISTRY OF AVIATION
  Belfast Air Freighter
  Belfast Air Freighter
EDUCATION
  Nursery Schools
  Nursery Schools
  Adult Education
  Adult Education
  Teachers (Science and Mathematics)
  Teachers (Science and Mathematics)
  Training Colleges
  Training Colleges
  Secondary School Children (Maintenance Allowances)
  Secondary School Children (Maintenance Allowances)
HOME DEPARTMENT
  Drink and Crime
  Drink and Crime
  Betting and Gaming
  Betting and Gaming
SCIENCE
  Canning Material (Beryllium)
  Canning Material (Beryllium)
  Dounreay
  Dounreay
  Magnox Power Stations
  Magnox Power Stations
  Atomic Energy Authority (Exports to U.S.S.R.)
  Atomic Energy Authority (Exports to U.S.S.R.)

Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of St. Albans

REDEVELOPMENT OF ROYAL AVENUE
2.36 p.m.
LORD CONESFORD: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they recognise the architectural importance of the Royal Avenue in its relation to Wren's masterpiece of the Royal Hospital, and can assure the House that, in the event of any application for development, they will insist on the strict observance of the requirements of the then Minister of Housing and Local Government, set out in his letter of the 7th September, 1961, that the whole terrace shall be built at one time and that the design shall be worthy of the site.]
THE MINISTER OF STATE, HOME OFFICE (EARL JELLICOE): My Lords, my right honourable friend the Minister of Housing and Local Government understands that an application has been made to the London County Council in respect of the proposed redevelopment of the sites of Nos. 1 to 15 Royal Avenue. He has directed that this application shall be referred to him for decision in view of the importance of the site in relation to the approaches to the Royal Hospital, and of his previous decision. In these circumstances the noble Lord will appreciate that I can express no views on the matter at this stage.
LORD CONESFORD: My Lords, may I thank my noble friend for that Answer, which shows that his right honourable friend rightly appreciates the importance of this matter? May I ask my noble friend this question: Does he recall the view expressed by the Royal Fine Art Commission in 1960, that the design of
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the Royal Avenue forms a unified composition which should be retained in any redevelopment? In these circumstances, can he assure the House that the Royal Fine Art Commission will again be consulted before his right honourable friend approves any new application?
EARL JELLICOE:: My Lords, may I thank my noble friend for his benevolent observations? I do recall the view expressed by the Royal Fine Art Commission, and I will of course bring to the attention of my right honourable friend the view expressed by my noble friend that the Royal Fine Art Commission should be further consulted
LORD MOLSON: My Lords, cannot the Minister go a little further than that? Surely, in a matter of this importance, he can give an undertaking that the Royal Fine Art Commission will be given an opportunity to express their views before a decision is taken?
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, I am afraid that at this stage I could not go beyond that
LORD SILKIN: My Lords, is it not equally prejudicing the matter the other way if, before the inquiry starts, the Royal Fine Art Commission are put into a specially privileged position? Is not the right thing for the Royal Fine Art Commission to give evidence at the inquiry, as any other interested party does, and for the Minister to take into account the representations that they make? I should not wish to disregard the views of the Royal Fine Art Commission, but I should deplore bodies having an opportunity of making representations outside the inquiry. I think the right place for them to make their observations is at the inquiry itself.
LORD CONESFORD: My Lords, am I not right in thinking that—
LORD SILKIN: Can the Minister answer my question now?
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, I shall be glad to answer if I am given a chance. I appreciate the point made by the noble Lord opposite. It would be quite wrong for me to say anything at this stage, since the application has been called in, which would prejudice my right honourable friend's consideration of it either way. All I said was that I would bring

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the observation made by my noble friend to the attention of my right honourable friend.
LORD CONESFORD: My Lords, may I ask, purely for information because I know the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, is in no sense hostile to the purpose of my Question, whether it is not a fact (I think I am right) that under all Governments it has been the custom for the Royal Fine Art Commission to give their views to Her Majesty's Government and not to give evidence at the inquiry?
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, I am not quite certain to whom the question was addressed, and I am not quite certain that I know the answer. I will look into it.
BARONESS HORSBRUGH: My Lords, would the noble Earl convey to his right honourable friend the real anxiety that many people feel on this subject? I think it ought to be made perfectly clear that there is that anxiety, and that there will be great annoyance if that anxiety is not taken into account.
EARL JELLICOE: Most certainly.
LORD REA: My Lords, would the noble Earl not agree that the function of the Royal Fine Art Commission is to give advice before being called to give evidence?
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, I said that I did not quite know the answer to that particular question and would look into it.
LORD MORRISON OF LAMBETH: My Lords, would the noble Earl keep in mind that, while the Royal Fine Art Commission has, as my noble friend Lord Silkin has said, a part, and an important part, to play in giving advice in this matter, some of us think that it would not be desirable for it to be elevated into a situation almost of dictatorship upon these matters, either to Her Majesty's Government or to the local planning authority? Teat seems to me to be the tendency of the questions Which have been put.
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, I am sure that my right honourable friend will wish to bear in mind all the observations made by your Lordships.

THE SUMMER RECESS
2.42 p.m.
LORD NEWTON: My Lords, I should like to inform the House that it is proposed that, after the Summer Adjournment, the House will meet again on Thursday, October 25, at 11 o'clock for Prorogation. It is expected that the new Session will be opened on Tuesday, October 30.
I should also like to inform the House that at a suitable time after 3.30, a statement will be made by my noble friend Lord Hailsham on the Leonardo Cartoon Appeal Fund; and another statement will be made by my noble friend Lord Lansdowne on the Colonial Development Corporation.

TAY ROAD BRIDGE ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL
2.43p.m.
Considered on Report (according to Order).
Then, Standing Order No. 41 having been suspended (pursuant to the Resolution of July 25), Bill read 3a, and passed.

LEITH HARBOUR AND DOCKS ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL
Considered on Report (according to Order).
Then, Standing Order No. 41 having been suspended (pursuant to the Resolution of July 25), Bill read 3a, and passed.

SUNDAY ENTERTAINMENTS ACT, 1932
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, I beg to move that this Order be approved.
Moved, That the order made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, extending section one of the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, to the Urban District of Ashbourne, a copy of which order was laid before this House on 24th July, 1962, be approved.—(Earl Jellicoe.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

GAS BOARDS (RATEABLE VALUES) ORDER, 1962
2.44 p.m.
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, I beg to move that the Gas Boards (Rateable Values) Order, 1962, be approved. I hope your Lordships will also find it convenient if, in these brief introductory remarks, I also deal with the other Order, the Electricity Boards (Rateable Values) Order, 1962. Those of your Lordships who follow these matters closely may have observed that the Electricity Order was made on July 9, and the Gas Order on July 20. I should perhaps explain that an Order covering Gas Boards was originally made on July 9 as well. Unfortunately, at an early stage in the drafting two errors, one rather considerable and one very small, crept in, and these were detected only on July 20. As a result the original Order was withdrawn, and a new one was made on July 20. I trust this has not confused or inconvenienced your Lordships.
LORD LATHAM: I take that this is without prejudice to any of the parties concerned.
EARL JELLICOE: Yes, indeed. Briefly, these two Orders are made necessary by the general revaluation for rating purposes which is due to take effect next April. This revaluation is, of course, intended to take account of changes in the general level of rents since the last revaluation. Unless corresponding adjustments were made for the gas and electricity properties, which are not subject to the ordinary processes of revaluation, the two industries would enjoy a fortuitous windfall by way of a reduction in their rates.
To obviate this on a previous occasion, Parliament approved, in the Rating and Valuation Act, 1957, a 70 per cent. increase in the basic rateable values for the gas industry, that being the average increase in other rateable values as a result of the 1956 revaluation. The purpose of the present Order is to bring the gas rateable values up to the new levels of 1963. On this occasion your Lordships will observe that the increase which is proposed is some 87·6 per cent. This is the proportionate change in the net annual values of comparable properties moving on ordinary valuation processes
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from 1956 levels to the 1963 levels as estimated by the Board of Inland Revenue. However, although gas and electricity rateable values are being increased by nearly 90 per cent. by this Order their total share of the rate burden is likely to fall by about 30 per cent. I should perhaps make clear that the circumstances of the Electricity Order are virtually the same as those of the Gas Order and the same considerations apply there.
Finally, I should make it clear that, of course, there have been the necessary statutory consultations with the associations of local authorities, with the London County Council, and with the Gas and the Electricity Councils. I think it is fair to claim that a broad measure of agreement has been reached, or at least, as the Opposition spokesman put it in another place, that "at least an equality of dissatisfaction" has been achieved between the two sides. I commend these two Orders to your Lordships as making fair and reasonable adjustments.
Moved, That the Gas Boards (Rateable Values) Order, 1962, be approved.—(Earl Jellicoe.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

ELECTRICITY BOARDS (RATEABLE VALUES) ORDER, 1962
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, I beg to move.
Moved, That the Electricity Boards (Rateable Values) Order, 1962, be approved.—(Earl Jellicoe.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

MOTOR VEHICLES (TESTS) (EXTENSION) ORDER, 1962
2.48 p.m.
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF TRANSPORT(LORD CHESHAM): My Lords, as your Lordships know, Sections 65 and 66 of the Road Traffic Act, 1960, make provision for testing motor vehicles in respect of certain requirements which affect their safe use on the road. Subsection (3) of Section 66 empowers my right honourable friend to make an Order bringing down the original ten-year age limit to a lower one, and this

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Order is subject to the Affirmative Resolution procedure. One of these Orders was made in October, 1961, when the age limit was changed from ten to seven years. When your Lordships considered that Order I mentioned that it was intended to reduce still further the age limit of vehicles subject to this test. The Order mow before your Lordships represents another stage in that process of substituting six years for seven.
Its effect is to require vehicles which have been registered for between six and seven years to be provided with a test certificate by November 1, and in other cases by the sixth anniversary of the date of first registration. In case your Lordships think that we should perhaps be reducing the age limit still further I would point out that as the limit comes down one finds an increasing number of vehicles in each age group, and we have to think about the capacity of the testing stations in relation to a reasonable opportunity for people to get their vehicles tested. I am satisfied my Lords that this is quite all right in this case, but we should not include a greater number in this Order at this time. I can say, though, that we shall seek further reductions in due course.
Your Lordships may like to know how the whole test scheme is running and how it appears to be justified. Well, my Lords, I can tell you that the records show that on the original ten-year-old test about 40 per cent. of the vehicles submitted failed and had to be either repaired or taken off the road. We also know that a good many were scrapped without facing the test at all, because they were too bad to be economically repaired. In the period when the seven to ten-year-old vehicles came in, and many of the over ten-year-olds were coming up for their second test, the number of failures became 33 per cent. Perhaps that does not sound very much, but when it is remembered that it represents comfortably over a million vehicles, and that the most common faults were with brakes, then with steering and then with lights, in that order, I do not think I need say much more about the value of the tests.
As your Lordships know, we have been carrying out spot-checks as well, and the results reveal that of the vehicles tested between five and seven years
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old, 30 per cent. were in a condition in which they would not have passed the test, and were defective to a degree that made them a potential source of accidents at any time. I think, therefore, that what I have said will assure your Lordships that the testing scheme is achieving its purpose, and that this further extension of it is justified. I beg to move that this Order be approved.
Moved, That the Motor Vehicles (Tests) (Extension) Order, 1962, be approved.—(Lord Chesham.)
EARL HOWE: My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether there will be any variation or reduction in the charges to be made in the scheme?
2.52 p.m.
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, we on this side of the House view this Order with mixed feelings. First of all, we welcome the fact that the Government have found it possible to reduce the age limit of these vehicles to six, but our welcome is slightly diminished when we take into account the figures that the noble Lord has given us, in the sense that we wonder whether we are moving fast enough. The noble Lord has said that of the vehicles inspected in the course of twelve months a million were found to be defective, and that there was really little difference in the number of vehicles that were defective in the age group five to seven compared with the older cars. Therefore it makes one wonder what number of vehicles are on the roads at the present moment, even of a year old, which if inspected to-day would be found defective in one way or another. We feel that the Government must press on to reduce this age limit. The noble Lord said that it was the Government's intention to do so but that the capacity for inspection at the present moment would be strained. Can the noble Lord say when we can anticipate a further Order? Will it be possible to bring the age group down to five or four within the next twelve months?
I would make one other point to the noble Lord. I am sure the House was surprised at the figures he gave us. I think very few people, even in your Lordships' House—certainly very few among the general public, and even among the motoring public—are aware of the number of vehicles that are being

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found defective upon what is really a limited inspection. One sees very little in the way of publicity. I should now like the Government to carry out a proper campaign, to bring these facts before every single motorist in the country, more or less pointing the question at each motorist: "Is your car one of perhaps three million on the roads today, which may be defective?" My Lords, I think this matter must be rammed home to the motorist, that it is he who is responsible for the vehicle on the road, and it is his responsibility to see that it is kept fit.
Many of us who have fairly "young" cars take them regularly to the garage and have them serviced. I should like to see the Government encourage persons who do that, and others who may not take their cars quite so often, to have them voluntarily checked, irrespective of their age. I would suggest to the Minister that we have a seal, something similar to a tax licence, that could be issued by the examining garage, to show that they have checked the car and passed it. That seal could then be put above the tax licence, and would clearly indicate to everyone that that driver had voluntarily taken his car and had it examined.
Then, my Lords, I would suggest that, if the Government are unable to reduce this age limit rapidly down to four or three years, they increase the number of persons who are doing the roadside checks. I think it was the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, who fought for this matter—that there should be considerable roadside checks. There are some that are going on, but if we could increase them, so much the better. Certainly, if you had a seal or a sign as I suggested, that you had voluntarily had your vehicle checked, you would not be likely to be stopped by these inspectors in the street. Therefore, apart from some prestige and satisfaction at having had your vehicle tested, you would have a sign and might not be stopped on the road by these inspectors.
There is only one other point which I would make. I am concerned about the sale of second-hand cars. It has become quite a habit in this country for people with a new or second-hand car
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to drive it hard or, to use an expression of many, to "flog" it, and then to sell it at the end of twelve or eighteen months. Some of these cars can be "poshed up" quite considerably. Certainly, if you buy a second-hand car through a reputable dealer you are fairly secure, but there are many of these roadside car marts which do not appear to have any engineering facilities by which to examine cars. I think that every single car that is sold should be sold with a certificate. The noble Lord may say that it is an offence to sell a secondhand car that is defective, but those who go in to buy a second-hand car may not have much experience. They may only have the word of a salesman, a salesman who could disappear very quickly on to another job.
I think there should be a constructive approach to this matter, and when a second-hand car is sold a certificate should be issued. One gets a warranty with a new car, and I think such a warranty should be issued by the seller of a second-hand car. I hope the Government will seriously consider this matter, because there are reports from time to time of the sale of second-hand cars which do not meet up to the road requirements. If a firm has to issue a certificate to the effect that a car has been examined and found roadworthy—in other words, they must state that that is the case—there will be a greater stress on this matter, and the public when buying cars will look for that certificate, and will not buy a car unless the certificate is available. My Lords, we welcome this Order, we hope that the Government will move faster in the next twelve months, and will consider favourably this incentive to ordinary motorists to take their cars voluntarily for these examinations.
3.0 p.m.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My Lords, the interesting part of the Minister's statement in putting this Order before your Lordships' House, if I understood him correctly, was that, in the spot-checks organised by the Ministry, 37 per cent. of the cars spot-checked proved to be in such a condition that they would not have passed the test. I understand from the noble Lord that the spot-check is made irrespective of age. It is obviously impossible for a Ministry of

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Transport examiner to distinguish easily a motor car of a certain age. My Lords, to me, that is a most significant and alarming figure—37 per cent., irrespective of age. One, two or three-year olds, they are all in together.
That brings me to the real point of my intervention. It has been authoritatively stated that the Minister of Transport contemplates increasing the speed limit of commercial vehicles of certain types to 40 miles an hour. I will not discuss the rights or the wrongs of that—the time for that will be when the Minister produces the Order; but I am going to state quite emphatically to your Lordships that all too large a number of commercial vehicles on the roads to-day are so overloaded as to make them uncontrollable because of their damaged steering and inefficient brakes. I do say this to the noble Lord, Lord Chesham: that if you are going to increase the speed limit for these vehicles to 40 miles an hour, that will automatically increase their natural, overall speed; and the Minister must take into consideration that there will have to be a rather more rigid check upon the mechanical conditions of these vehicles.
Now I know his difficulties. As the number of motor cars that have to come in for compulsory examination increases, so the tax upon the examining facilities becomes greater. I also know (to follow the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd) that to increase the number of examiners on the roads would put a strain upon manpower, and this would be the greater if one included a rather more rigid check on commercial vehicles. Such a check, moreover, can be property carded out only on the road with the load it carries, and not in a service station unladen; because many vehicles that would pass a test unladen in a service garage would not pass a test with a 7-ton load on them on the roads. I think the British public will be very apprehensive of an order to increase the speed limit for many of these vehicles unless the Minister can at the same time give an assurance that there will be a very careful check of the mechanical conditions of those commercial vehicles so as not to endanger public safety. I hope the House will forgive me for bringing in this matter, but it is of the utmost importance, and I hope I may
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have at least a sympathetic answer from the Minister on this point.
3.4 p.m.
LORD HAWKE: My Lords, nobody enjoys driving "old crocks" about, but the fact of the matter is that a great many people in this country are driving motor cars when they cannot afford to do so, because the proper calculations have never been taken into account by them in advance. In other words, the depreciation factor is ignored, and they have to go on wearing out these old bits of machinery, being totally unable to find more capital to buy a new one. I quote from my own experience. I have some slight responsibility for a certain number of clergy who are doing a job which one might call an inspecting job. On making inquiries the other day, I found that in all cases they had no capital sum available with which to replace the motor cars which they were using on their job. They are doing 20,000 miles a year, and many private owners are doing far less. If, therefore any campaign is to be initiated, I think the most important thing is to bring home to the people that they are not paying for their motoring unless they are putting aside, into the Posit Office Savings Bank, or something of the kind, an amount to cover the replacement of this vehicle When it is thrown off the road as being unfit.
3.6 p.m.
LORD MORRISON OF LAMBETH:: My Lords, there is a lot to be said for what the noble Lord opposite has just said. Not only do people hold a car longer than they ought because they cannot afford a new one, but they will buy a very old car in the first instance because it is Cheaper. But the trouble is that to remedy this would require an income test or a means test for the purchase of a car, which might then be applied to buying television sets, washing machines and so on. I think that the Government possibly might not feel inclined to do that.
I am glad that the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of chilworth, raised the point of the loading of commercial vehicles, and I should like to ask the noble Lord who is to reply whether, in the administration of a test, account will be taken in the case of commercial vehicles of the loading of those vehicles. It seems to me, on

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the argument of the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, that, there is a prima facie case for perhaps being more careful and severe in those cases where they have to carry heavy loads, with consequent extra stress upon the brakes, than otherwise. I think it is a point that needs consideration.
Apart from the wider point that the noble Lord raised (we cannot develop that point far under this Order, though I presume we shall have a chance under the Order about the speed limit), there is the point of these heavy vehicles cluttering up the roads with consequences which were outlined in an article on the leader page of the Sunday Express last Sunday, which I thought was a very sensible contribution to the matter. In passing, and only in passing, I am bound to say that I think this idea of raising the speed limit of these vast vehicles to 40 miles an hour (of course, in practice, the answer is that they are doing 40 miles an hour now, and even more) is not a very satisfactory one, for if you officially raise it to 40 miles an hour you will have them travelling at 50 or 60. I think that this Minister of Transport is really road mad. He just wants to injure the railways; that is his primary purpose in life. But I reserve any further comment until the Order is before us; and I hope the Parliamentary Secretary can assure us that the Order about the speed limit on these heavy, vast engines which the Minister is encouraging upon the highways will come before us.
3.8 p.m.
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, this Order has led us into devious but interesting by-ways, some of which are not even on our particular map at all. To begin by answering my noble friend Lord Howe, I should tell him that it is not contemplated that there will be any reduction in charges under the test scheme, which are based on the cost of the tests. The noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, hotly pursued by the noble Lord, Lord Morrison of Lambeth, shot straight out of the ground altogether. Of course, their remarks about speed limits for commercial vehicles have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the Order which we are discussing to-day except in so far as it applies to vehicles of up to 30 cwt. unladen weight, because the
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vehicles to which they are referring are not subject to the tests to which this Order refers.
LORD MORRISON OF LAMBETH: Oh!
LORD CHESHAM: I am sorry the noble Lord opposite says "Oh", as if that were a surprise to him. But, my Lords, they never have been, right from the start.
LORD MORRISON OF LAMBETH: Why not?
LORD CHESHAM: May I just explain the reason to him? They are not subject to those tests because there is already in existence a system of testing them by the Ministry's own vehicle inspectors and it is clearly not necessary that they should also be subject to tests which were brought in for vehicles which were not otherwise subject to test. Therefore, we really are not talking about these heavy vehicles in relation to their loads, their speed or anything else. I will, of course, bear in mind what the noble Lords have said; because I agree with them that it is important. I only say—and I am sure your Lordships will forgive me—that this is not the moment to discuss it.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: Would the Minister forgive me if I say something in self defence? First of all, I knew that I was going a trifle outside the Order, and I asked the indulgence of the House to allow me to do so but the noble Lord himself brought up the question of spot checks by Ministry of Transport inspectors. I am perfectly well aware that the only test for a commercial vehicle is the Ministry of Transport spot check. This deals with vehicle checks; not only motor cars, but commercial vehicles. I said I did not think that it would be quite proper to bring these commercial vehicles into the service stations, but I suggested to him that he might consider an extension of the spot checking, because it is thrown into sharp relief by the authoritative statement that these vehicles will have a higher speed limit than heretofore. So I was not shot right off the mark; I perhaps deviated a little over a very thin white line.
LORD MORRISON OF LAMBETH:: Will the noble Lord be a little careful in responding to the noble Lord, Lord

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Lucas of Chilworth, whom I have hitherto supported, on that point? I am a little alarmed that the Minister should be urged to employ full-time inspectors over the whole field. We are a little in danger of becoming a nation where we are all getting a living by inspecting each other, and we had better be careful about it.
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, I quite agree with the noble Lord; we must be careful, because it might be quite alarming what we find. Whether the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, skidded off the course or whether he went what, in the case of a pipe-line, would be only just outside his limit of lateral deviation, I do not think matters very much, because I do not think that we should devote much time to-day to the very interesting and important things he has brought up. Later on will be the time to do that. I am coming on to the question of spot checks again in a moment.
The noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, raised, I thought, some interesting points, with none of which, as a matter of broad principle, I would disagree. He queried whether we were going fast enough, and perhaps it could be said: No. But I did give a reason for the present speed. This Order brings in (in round terms) a further 650,000 vehicles that will be subject to inspection, and experience has proved that people leave it almost entirely to the last few days before the due date, which imposes a very great strain on the testing stations. We have tried quite a number of measures—publicity and so on—to try to stop them doing this, but unsuccessfully. It is difficult to contemplate bringing in a greater number at this moment. I cannot specifically say to the noble Lord when the next stage will be, but I anticipate that I, or somebody else, will be back before your Lordships with further suggestions before very long.
My Lords, one of our difficulties is that through a legal defect in the manner in which these Orders can be made, it is not possible to stagger them. I shall be dealing with that matter later on, when we come to consider Amendments
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to the Road Traffic Bill, because it has now been put right.
LORD SHEPHERD: What does the noble Lord mean by "staggered"? Does he mean the periods?
LORD CHESHAM: What I mean by that, is that at the moment we can attach only one date to one age group, so to speak; and I think it will be possible to move a Little bit faster when we are able to divide that one age group into, perhaps, four sections and give them four different dates under one Order. One could call them phases. That unfortunately cannot be done legally at the moment. I hope that, if your Lordships agree to the Amendment which is to be put later on, that will help us to get on a little more quickly. But I will deal with that when I come to it.
LORD HAWKE: When the noble Lord raised the question of phasing of timing, he appealed to people to spread their tests, which is very sensible. For instance, how long can the test be valid? Could I have one test on December 31 this year, and another one on January 1 the following day, the first one to apply for the 1963 licence and the next one to apply for 1964?
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, the test certificate is valid for twelve months from the date of test; so the noble Lord, by having two checks, will have paid in some useful money to get an extension of two days on his test period.
The noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, asked for publicity to be given to these difficulties, and I will certainly consider that point and see what can be done. Of course, there is nothing now to stop anybody who wishes from taking his car for a test. That is by no means debarred. In the original stages, when it was a novelty, quite a number of people in fact did, and some of them, I think, got a sharp shock, which rather goes to prove what we have been so far agreeing on.
So far as spot checks are concerned, of course these are most useful if for no other reason than that they go further than the tests. But even with a greatly increased number of people available to do the spot checks, with the number of vehicles we have on the roads at the moment it could still only scratch at the

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surface or the problem. I would remind the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, that the heavy commercial vehicles have in fact been subject to spot checks for a good many years as well as to the inspections which are normally carried out by the Ministry inspectors, probably at their garages. But I would agree on the broad principle that this is something that needs, if possible, to be increased and certainly kept under way.
So far as secondhand cars are concerned, I should certainly like to consider at greater leisure the suggestion the noble Lord has put forward. I am bound to say, even though he slightly discounted it in advance, that it is, of course, an offence to sell a car in an un-roadworthy condition. As a first reaction, I would say that I do not quite know how a requirement that any particular firm should give a warranty of roadworthiness with each car could be embodied in legislation. I quite see what the noble Lord means by saying that innocent people need to be protected. There are various ways that they can protect themselves; but I should like to consider what he has said in this respect.
VISCOUNT STONEHAVEN: My Lords, could the noble Lord inquire how it has been done in South Africa? It has been a legal requirement there for years that one must not buy or sell a secondhand vehicle that has not a roadworthiness certificate. That system works very well there, and I do not see why the same should not be done here.
LORD CHESHAM: I will tell the noble Lord exactly why it cannot be done here. They have had rigorous inspections of all cars that are on the road, sometimes to an almost absurd degree, for many years. They have a vastly smaller number of motor cars to deal with than we have, and I can remember that as long ago as 1947 all the vehicles on the road were subject to a roadworthiness test, down to a minute degree but then the problem was not so complicated or as great as it is here. Nevertheless, I should like to look into the noble Lord's suggestion to see whether something can be got out of it. My Lords, I think I have dealt briefly with the points, and I hope that your Lordships will now approve this Order.
LORD MORRISON OF LAMBETH: My Lords, I know that this is a little off the lines but, as a matter of information and courtesy, would the noble Lord be good enough to tell us if the 40 m.p.h. commercial vehicle Order referred to will be a statutory instrument and subject to Parliamentary challenge.
LORD CHESHAM: Yes, my Lords; an Order of that kind is subject to Affirmative Resolution.
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, I thought the noble Lord was a little lukewarm about the idea that the Government should have a campaign to encourage motor owners to volunteer their vehicles for testing and to have an emblem denoting that their vehicles had been tested within the year. Would the noble Lord give this matter careful consideration? Because I am sure that we could persuade people to do this voluntarily; and, taking into account the dangers on the roads of these vehicles, I am sure that some good could be done in this way.
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, I am sorry if I appeared to be lukewarm about this. Perhaps I did not do the suggestion justice, because of the other material which was presented to me. I should not like to commit myself without looking at a possible scheme, but I should think that it is likely that something useful could be done in this way.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

CONSOLIDATED FUND (APPROPRIATION) BILL
Brought from the Commons, endorsed with the Certificate from the Speaker that the Bill is a Money Bill within the meaning of the Parliament Act, 1911 and read 1a.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, with permission, could I raise a matter of Business, which I omitted to do just now? Will a statement be made to-day or tomorrow on the statement in the Press, that there has been an agreement on Malaysia on its new basis?
EARL ST. ALDWYN: My Lords, certainly not to-day. I will certainly make inquiries to see whether there is any possibility of one to-morrow.

UGANDA INDEPENDENCE BILL
House in Committee (according to Order):
House resumed: Bill reported without amendment Report received.
Then, Standing Order No. 41 having been suspended (pursuant to the Resolution of July 25), Bill read 3a, and passed.

PIPE-LINES BILL [H.L.]
3.24 p.m.
Order of the Day for the consideration of Commons Amendments read.
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, I beg to move that the Commons Amendments be now considered.
Moved, That the Commons Amendments be now considered.—(Lord Chesham.)
LORD SILKIN: My Lords, before we actually consider the 124 Commons Amendments to this Bill, I should like once more to utter a protest against the way in which this Bill has been handled. It arrived in this House as a half-baked measure. It was rushed through. Inadequate time was given at all stages for its proper consideration—indeed, at one stage, the House was so revolted at the way in which the Bill was being dealt with, that they voted almost solidly against proceeding further with it in the way in which the Government desired. A number of very reasonable proposals that we put forward in this House were rejected, I thought, in rather a pigheaded way, without proper consideration, with the result that we are now faced with this large number of Amendments—they are not all, I admit, Amendments of substance, but a great many are—with inadequate time for their consideration. Obviously, we are left with the position that we have to take the whole lot or leave them.
I would refer to one of these Amendments in particular, No. 38. This was an Amendment which my noble friend Lord Lucan and others pressed hard
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upon the Government. It relates to safety provisions. We were told by the noble Lord, Lord Mills (I am very glad that he is here) that the Government were not in a position to say what kind of regulations would be required to provide for safety and we put forward the proposal that the Government should take powers to make these regulations, because, as the Bill stood, they had no power to make them even when they had come to know what regulations they wanted. But we were met with a blank refusal, without any reason given for it. Now we have Amendment No. 38, which does exactly what we asked for. It takes power to make regulations. Obviously, I agree that the Government are not in a position to say what these regulations are. But I am bound to say that this example—and I could quote others—is an indication of the way in which this House is being treated in legislation. We spend hours upon hours laboriously and very little change is made of any substance. Often legislation is introduced too late to enable us to discuss it adequately and then we find coming from another place the Amendments which we ourselves had put forward and advocated strongly, but which had been refused us, and then accepted in the House of Commons.
I do not want to hold the noble Lord responsible for the sins of the Government as a whole, but I do ask him this: what is the use of this House if we are to be treated in this way? We get legislation too late to be effective. It is rushed through this House and then we have Amendments coming back from another place and we are unable to object, because, of course, we should be told that if we do not like any of these Amendments, we shall lose the Bill as a whole we have to accept them. That is not the way to propose legislation. I was going to say that I hope the Government will do better another time, but I have an even greater hope that before very long, they will not have an opportunity of doing anything, which will possibly be the case. But the Government have one more Session anyway, and I would ask the noble Lord to see that in the next Session of Parliament, when Bills come to this House, they will not come too late; and I hope that noble Lords in charge of Bills will be a little more responsive to the proposals we put

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forward than they have shown themselves to be in dealing With this Bill.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (LORD DILHORNE): My Lords, perhaps I may say a word in reply to the comments which the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, has made. That this is a complicated Bill in some respects no one would dispute, but if one compares the complexity of this Bill with that of the Town and Country Planning Bill, which the noble Lord once introduced, it is a comparatively simple measure. I cannot charge my memory when we discussed that Bill and I will not say any more about that, but I know that when this Bill was before the House further time was given to it, and after that time was given the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, said this:
"We shall be able to deal with these matters in the course of the discussions that will take place on Report stage."
And those discussions took place. Of course, one regrets that this Bill has not been able to come back to us before. Perhaps the noble Lord knows something about the time it took in another place and the prolonged discussions on various matters that took place. One of course will bear in mind what the noble Lord has said and no one wishes to deny this House a proper opportunity of considering all the Commons Amendments, and, indeed, other proposals that are put forward.
In so far as the criticism was made of Amendment No. 38, I would just say this. I should have hoped that that Amendment would be welcome as it goes so far to meet the views put forward in this House. I think the noble Lord will find that a great many of the Amendments tabled are, in fact, Amendments which meet points raised in this House and which have been further considered I take note of what the noble Lord has said and I hope that having replied to it, not too shortly and I hope not to lengthily, we can now proceed to consider the Amendments.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS
[The references are to Bill [100—] as first printed for the House of Commons]
Clause 1, page 1, line 13, after ("authorisation") insert ("or (except with the consent of the Minister) by a person other than the one named in the application for the authorisation as he who will be the owner of the line").
3.32 p.m.
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, I must endeavour to be accurate about this and start straight away by saying that this Amendment resulted from an undertaking given to the Opposition in another place. It was thought that the Minister, when he had satisfied himself of the bona fides of a person who has authorisation, or has been granted an authorisation, to construct a pipe-line, should be able to see that the construction is carried out by that person without change, otherwise there might be some danger that the pipe-line would be left half finished, that land might be inadequately restored, or, what would be rather more serious, that there would be a danger of some lapse from the standards of safety. I do not think that these risks were very likely to materialise and it would certainly be difficult to prevent any change in the ownership of a company to whom the authorisation had been granted as opposed to the transfer of the authorisation from one individual to another. But even if the risks are small it was thought that there would certainly be something to be said for trying to improve the safeguards in this respect, and that is what this first Amendment does. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Chesham.)
THE EARL OF LUCAN: My Lords, would it be correct to say that this Amendment goes a long way to meet the point that my noble friend Lord Shepherd made in moving an Amendment on Third Reading? It appears to be the same in substance.
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, it does not go quite so far as he wanted to go, but it certainly moves in the same direction.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT
Clause 2, page 2, line 30, leave out from ("route") to ("as") in line 32 and insert ("delineated on the map which, by virtue of that subsection, must accompany the notice or within such limits of lateral deviation from that route").
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, No. 2 is a drafting Amendment. I beg to

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move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Chesham.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

THE COLONIAL DEVELOPMENT CORPORATION
3.35 p.m.
The MINISTER OF STATE FOR COLONIAL AFFAIRS (THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE): My Lords, it may be for the convenience of your Lordships if I intervene to make a statement in the same words as used by my right honourable friend in another place.
"It has been decided to extend the scope of the activities of the Colonial Development Corporation which have hitherto been confined to dependant territories. It is proposed henceforth to authorise the Corporation to undertake new development schemes in countries in which it was previously empowered to operate after they have become independent Members of the Commonwealth. The Corporation will be renamed the Commonwealth Development Corporation. The necessary legislation will be introduced as soon as possible."
LORD SILKIN: My Lords, we welcome this statement for its own sake but also because this is something which has been urged upon the Government from this side of the House and from the other side of the House as well. We are very glad to see the Government in a receptive state of mind and we hope it will long continue.
LORD REA: My Lords, I think the whole House will agree with what the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, has just said. This is a solution which has been urged from all quarters of the House and it should have taken place before. It is no good recriminating about it now. Although it is not too late, it is very late; but I am extremely glad the Government are taking this step.

PIPE-LINES BILL [H.L.]
3.37 p m
Consideration of Commons Amendments resumed.

COMMONS AMENDMENT
Clause 2, page 3, line 33, at end, insert—
("(5) The Minister may by order direct that subsection (1) of this section shall, in relation to pipe-lines of a class specified in the order, have effect with the substitution, for the reference to sixteen weeks, of a reference to such shorter period as may be specified in the order.
An order under this subsection may be varied or revoked by a subsequent order; and any such order shall be made by statutory instrument which shall be subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of either House of Parliament.")
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, the effect of this Amendment is to add a new subsection to Clause 2 which will enable the Minister to specify in relation to particular classes of local pipe-lines a shorter period of notice than sixteen weeks, as Clause 2 at present lays down, which must elapse between notification of the Minister and the start of construction work. My noble friend Lord Merrivale had views on this which he expressed at an earlier stage, and he thought that very short pipe-lines of less than half a mile in length should be excluded from the Bill. I could not agree to that at the time because of the safety factor, or lack of it, because they would have been outside that as well. My noble friend will, I am sure, remember what the argument was at the time. At the same time, I understand there are known to be about 300 pipelines running outside the actual areas—the curtilages of factories—which are less than ten miles long. I did not know that about half of them are less than a quarter of a mile long, and some of them less than 25 yards long; that these very short lines often have to be relaid or replaced either in emergencies or in the course of day-to-day business; and that many of them carry substances which are not at all dangerous. I think that there is a real problem in this.
I think there is a definite objection on the ground of safety to the exclusion from the Bill of all very short pipe-lines. On the other hand, sixteen weeks' notification seems in some ways inappropriate in cases where continual minor

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alterations may have to be made to lines of this kind, and the solution which is embodied in this Amendment is to give the Minister powers to require a shorter period of notice than sixteen weeks in the case of certain specified classes of pipe-line; and this would be subject to the Negative Resolution procedure. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.
Moved that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Chesham.)
THE EARL OF LUCAN: My Lords, does the noble Lord contemplate that the class of pipe-line would be defined by the number of yards in length?
LORD CHESHAM: No, my Lords, I do not think that they would be classified only by length. They would be classified also by what they were carrying.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

THE LEONARDO DA VINCI CARTOON
3.38 p.m.
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL AND MINISTER FOR SCIENCE (VISCOUNT HAILSHAM): My Lords, my right honourable friend the Prime Minister has just made in the other place a statement in reply to a Question on the Leonardo da Vinci Cartoon which I think it would be for the convenience of the House if I repeated here. The statement is as follows:
"I asked the President of the Royal Academy to delay selling the Leonardo Cartoon in order to allow time for a public appeal. This was undertaken in a public-spirited and energetic way by the National Art Collections Fund, and I should like to express our gratitude to Lord Crawford and Balcarres and his colleagues for what they have done. As a result of the appeal, and of the contributions made by the National Art Collections Fund, Lord Crawford and Balcarres informs me that they can make available £450,000 towards the £800,000 which the Royal Academy are asking for the Cartoon.
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"The Government have been greatly impressed by the very large number of individual citizens who have contributed their own money towards keeping this great work of art in this country. I am, therefore, informing Lord Crawford and Balcarres that, subject to the approval of Parliament, the balance of £350,000 will be found from public funds."
That is the statement.
LORD SILKIN: My Lords, we are very grateful to the noble and learned Viscount for making that statement, and I am sure the whole House will welcome the fact that the Government are sufficiently interested in works of art to make this handsome contribution. I hope that that fact will have some effect in making the work of art known to the general public, because until the appeal was started very few people in this country or even outside had ever heard of it; but to-day it has, of course, become famous. I am sure we should like to express our thanks to all those who have made contributions to the Fund and so enabled us to save this work of art.
I am rather amused that the noble and learned Viscount personally makes this statement after his speech of yesterday. He will remember telling the House of the enormous numbers of claims that are being made upon the Government by all sorts of people in all sorts of directions. I am not sure whether he mentioned this particular one, but perhaps he knew this was coming to-day. At any rate, he mentioned a number of similar applications made to the Government which, by implication, I thought he was saying should be resisted. However, I am very glad that he is treating this as an exception, and the whole nation will be grateful that we have been able to save this work of art, with the help of Her Majesty's Government.
LORD REA: My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Silkin. Everybody will be extremely pleased that the Government have taken an interest in this matter. All of us are interested in art, some of us very deeply and sincerely, not only from personal reasons but from reasons of responsibility, and we are indeed grateful to the noble Earl, Lord Crawford and Balcarres, and his

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colleagues for what they have done, and to the generous members of the public. Nevertheless, I am a little uneasy about the way this matter is being settled. By instituting this Art Collections Fund the Government were virtually instituting a referendum for the public, and the public refused to endorse that. They are now proposing to pay out taxpayers' money to make up the difference. One is pleased that this cartoon is to be retained in this country, but I am not quite happy about the method employed.
Baroness HORSBRUGH: My Lords, does not the noble and learned Viscount think it has been made clear that the public were in favour of retaining this cartoon if they were willing to subscribe this large sum of money? And does it not appear that this is in full agreement with what has been said on other occasions, that this Government are willing to help those who help themselves?
LORD MOYNE: My Lords, while welcoming our noble and learned Leader's statement that this grant may be forthcoming, but especially that it is to be subject to the approval of Parliament, since this is a question on Which differing views are sincerely and strongly held, may I ask my noble and learned friend how soon discussion of such approval will be possible and whether the Royal Academy have agreed to wait the necessary length of time?
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, may I ask the noble and learned Viscount, in view of the fact that the taxpayer, through the Government, are making this contribution, whether the Government will ensure that this work of art is seen outside London?
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, there are quite a number of questions there. I would thank both the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, and the noble Lord, Lord Rea, for their kindly thought about this matter and their generous remarks. Of course, all I said yesterday was that the public must realise that in contributions by the Government, great or small, handsome or niggardly, they are not the Government's pockets primarily which are being emptied, and if the public want it that way—and I think we have interpreted public opinion correctly in this matter—that is the way they can have it.
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It is idle for them to complain at whatever price it is they have to pay, I would agree with my noble friend Baroness Horsbrugh: I know that what impressed some of my right honourable Mends and noble friends was the fact that great numbers of people had subscribed sums, which some of them may have been ill able to afford, to preserve this work of art. That influenced the Government in making what is not only a handsome but an unprecedented contribution to a matter of this kind, and I think it should have influenced the Government.
At all events, I suppose, as my noble friend Lord Moyne says, people will continue to hold slightly differing views about this particular matter. I do not think this can be discussed before the Recess; I suppose it will be discussed in the Commons in the ordinary way. I do not know of any specific arrangements that are being made with the Royal Academy, but when a statement of this kind is made it is assumed that Parliament will endorse what the Government have done, and I believe myself the Royal Academy would act in this belief. As regards exhibiting the cartoon elsewhere, the substance of which it is made of is of a highly brittle and fragile nature and I think where and how we exhibit it will have to be determined primarily now by our duty, not only to the country but to civilised mankind, to keep it in a reasonable condition. I know there are many people who would like to see it outside London if that can be arranged technically.
LORD SILKIN: My Lords, may I ask the noble and learned Viscount whether this gift is unconditional or whether the Government feel they are in a position to impose conditions such as my noble friend has suggested?
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, I do not think the Government can impose conditions. I had the impression—again I am speaking perhaps rather inadvisedly—that once the cartoon had been bought it would in effect belong to the nation, through whatever public organ it would be who would technically hold the legal property. I do not think it would be for the Government to impose conditions. It is a matter for discussion between public bodies who in one way or another represent the nation.

PIPE-LINES BILL [H.L.]

  COMMONS AMENDMENTS
  Clause 3, page 3, line 36, leave out from ("given") to ("or") and insert ("to the Minister for the purposes of subsection (1) of section two of this Act").
  Clause 3, page 3, line 38, leave out ("under the said section two") and insert ("for the purposes of the said subsection (1)")
  Clause 3, page 3, line 42, leave out ("specified in") and insert ("accompanying").
  Clause 3, Page 4, line 17, leave out from ("route") to ("as") in line 20 and insert ("delineated on the map which, by virtue of the following provisions of this section, must accompany the notice or within such limits of lateral deviation from that route").
  3.48 p.m.
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, I think it would be convenient to take Amendments Nos. 4, 5, 6 and 7 together. They are all drafting Amendments. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENTS
  Clause 5, page 6, line 7, after ("authorisation") insert ("or serving a notice under the last foregoing section")
  Clause 5, page 6, line 12, after ("1947") insert ("or. as the case may be, in so far as the removal of the works required by the notice to be removed, or any change in the use of land which is involved in the removal, constitutes such development,")
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, Amendments Nos. 8 and 9 go together, and No. 33 also goes with them. All of them were put down following an undertaking given to the Opposition in another place that an Amendment they had put down, or its substance, would be further considered. The object of the Amendment was to ensure that the removal of a pipe-line would be deemed not to involve the development of land for the purpose of the Town and Country Planning Act. 1947. It was thought that an absurd situation might arise if the Minister exercised his powers under Clause 4 to require the removal of a pipeline, because it was in some way in contravention of the provisions of Clauses 1 or 2, and the local planning authority then refused to give planning permission for the work to be done. It was somewhat difficult to meet this
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  point, because the removal of a pipe-line by the owner, when he is not obliged to do so by the Minister, is something for which planning permission ought to be sought. Therefore, the Amendments are drafted in such a way as to provide that where the Minister serves a notice under Clause 4 or Clause 20 requiring removal he may at the same time grant deemed planning permission for removal. This meets the essential point that was raised. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENTS
  Clause 7, page 7, line 8, leave out ("less than") and insert ("not exceeding")
  Clause 7, page 7, line 14, leave out ("less than") and insert ("not exceeding")
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, these are both drafting Amendments, and they correct a small anomaly. I beg to move.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  Clause 7, page 7, line 16, at end, insert—
  ("(2) The Minister, on an application in that behalf being made to him, and after causing if he thinks fit a public inquiry to be held, may by order (made by statutory instrument which shall be subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of either House of Parliament) direct that the foregoing subsection shall not apply to the construction of pipelines situate wholly within an area specified in or described by the order, being pipe-lines of a class so specified.")
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, Clause 7 provides that the construction of a pipe-line less than ten miles long as an addition to another pipe-line is to be regarded as the construction of a cross-country pipe-line and not a local one, if the combined length of the two exceeds ten miles. In the same way with the construction of a pipe-line under ten miles in length, to connect two, or possibly more, other pipe-lines is to be deemed to represent the construction of a cross-country pipe-line if the line and those it connects in all exceed ten miles. The purpose of the clause is to prevent anyone from evading the controls in

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  Clause 1 by constructing a series of pipelines under ten miles long and then joining them all together. But there are certain areas of the country in which there are particular industries which have extensive Local networks, and it might be rather unnecessary for each additional pipe-line or connection between the pipe-lines within such essentially local systems to be construed as a cross-country pipe-line and subject to the full procedure laid down in Clause 1.
  I think that it is reasonable to provide for the possibility of exemption in these cases. The Amendment meets the point. It provides that the Minister may, by order, direct that the provisions of Clause 7 shall not apply to the construction of pipe-lines of a specified class lying Wholly within a specified area. It really deals with the point that was raised by my noble friends Lord Colville of Culross and Lord Merrivale in connection with the china clay industry, which has a small but complicated system of pipe-lines and where to make the cross-country application every time it was desired to add 20 yards of line would make a nonsense. I beg to move.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  After Clause 7, insert the following new Clause:
  Exception for emergency works
  (".—(1) In the case of any works for the construction of a pipe-line or the diversion of a length of a pipe-line, being emergency works,—

  (a) the execution thereof may be effected without any authorisation of, or notice to, the Minister; but

  (b) as soon as is reasonably practicable after the works have been executed the person who executed them shall send to the Minister three copies of a map (whereof the scale shall not be less than that of six inches to the mile) on which is delineated the route taken by the line constructed or, as the case may be, the route taken by the portion of the line diverted; and

  (c) where the works were for the construction of a line, section three of this Act shall, with the substitution, for the reference in subsection (1) to the map there described, of a reference to the map referred to in the last foregoing paragraph, have effect for the purpose of authorising the diversion of a
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  length of the line as if it had been placed as mentioned in that subsection and, where the works were for the diversion of a length of line, the length shall for the purposes of that section be deemed to have been diverted in pursuance of subsection (1) thereof.

  (2) If a person fails to send copies of a map in accordance with an obligation to which he is subject by virtue of paragraph (b) of the foregoing subsection, he shall, in respect of that failure, be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding fifty pounds.")
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, I think it might be convenient to point out that Amendment No. 13 is a substantive Amendment, but Amendments Nos. 44, 46, 47, 63 and 64 are consequential upon it. The new clause, Amendment No. 13, provides for a carrying out of pipe-line works in cases of emergency. This Amendment is the one which does the job, the rest being as I say, merely consequential. As the Bill stands at the moment, there is no provision for the execution of pipe-line work which may be necessary at short notice as the result of some emergency. For example, it may be necessary to construct a new section to a pipe-line, to replace one that has cracked or burst. This may have to be done very quickly indeed because the flow of products up the pipe-line may cause some expensive damage or mischief to continuous industrial processes. Or it might be that there is a shortage of aviation spirit at some aerodrome or something like that. I do not think there can be much doubt that a provision on these lines is necessary, because otherwise a pipe-line owner might find himself breaking the law in an attempt to do what was only reasonable to avoid serious dislocation of some kind.
  What the clause does is, first, to provide that the emergency works may be executed without any authorisation in the case of cross-country pipe-line or notice for a local one, but that as soon as possible thereafter the Minister shall be sent three maps showing what has happened; and where the works consist of the building of a new line the provisions of Clause 3, which deals with the diversion of pipe-lines, shall apply to it. I think this is a reasonable provision. It is not a complicated one. I beg to move.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  Clause 8, page 8, line 16, at end, insert ("but requirements imposed for the purpose specified in paragraph (a) of this subsection shall be so framed as, in the Minister's opinion to secure that compliance therewith will not prejudice the proper and efficient operation of the line for the purpose of the conveyance on behalf of the owner thereof in the quantity required by him of the kind of thing, or things of the class, which it is designed to convey").
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, Amendment No. 14 goes with Amendment No. 19. Together they make it clear that any requirement which the Minister may impose under either subsection (2) of Clause 8 or subsection (4) of clause 9 for securing common user rights shall in no way prejudice the proper and efficient operation of the line for conveying the products belonging to the pipe-line owner. I think this is simple and reasonable. I beg to move.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  Page 8, line 17, leave out from ("subsection") to ("to") in line 18 and insert ("with reference to a pipe-line may authorise the owner thereof").
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, Amendments Nos. 15, 17, 18, 20, 21 and 22 together are drafting Amendments designed to remedy a defect in the wording of certain sections of Clauses 8 and 9. I beg to move.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  Page 8, line 24, at end insert ("construction").
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, this Amendment is drafting. I beg to move.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENTS
  Page 8, line 32, leave out ("on him").
  Page 8, line 33, after ("section") insert ("with reference to the line").
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, these are drafting Amendments. I beg to move.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  Clause 9, page 9, line 34, at end, insert ("but requirements imposed for the purpose specified in paragraph (a) of this subsection shall be so framed as, in the Minister's opinion, to secure that compliance therewith will not prejudice the proper and efficient operation of the line for the purpose mentioned in subsection (3) of this section").
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, this Amendment goes with Amendment No. 14. I beg to move.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENTS
  Page 9, line 35, leave out from ("subsection") to ("to") in line 36 and insert ("with reference to a pipe-line may authorise the owner thereof").
  Page 9, line 43, leave out ("on him"),
  Page 9, line 44, after ("section") insert ("with reference to the line").
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, these Amendments are drafting. I beg to move.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  Clause 10, page 10, line 25, leave out from ("effectual") to ("and") in line 27.
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, Amendment No. 23 is not of itself important. It is what I might describe as a preparatory consequential Amendment to the main substantive Amendment, No. 70. I do not know whether it would be your Lordships' wish that we should deal with this as consequential and that I should explain the matter on Amendment No. 70 when we reach it, because there are a further half-a-dozen Amendments which are consequential on that Amendment. If your Lordships would agree, perhaps we could pass this Amendment now and I can speak to Amendment No. 70 when it is reached. I beg to move.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  Clause 11, page 10, line 43, after ("authorised") insert (",subject to any conditions attached thereto under section (Power of Minister to attach conditions to compulsory rights orders),").
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, this is a similar kind of Amendment relating to Amendment No. 27, which is the main substantive Amendment, and to a good many consequential Amendments as well. Perhaps I had better speak to the whole matter on this Amendment. This group of Amendments go together, and comprise Nos. 24, 27, 29, 30, 77, 82, 93, 97, 102, 103, 105, 106, 118, 119, 120 and 122. I think they concern just about the most complicated-looking subject that we have had to deal with. These Amendments are designed to replace Clause 13 of the Bill, which applies to provisions of the Fifth Schedule, which is accordingly deleted along with Clause 13. The Fifth Schedule regulates the execution of pipe-line works in railway land by virtue of a compulsory rights order. The reason why that should be deleted is that examination of it, in the light of comments received from the British Transport Commission since the Bill was first published, have revealed that it was not wholly satisfactory.
  The Schedule largely followed what was in the Public Utility (Street Works) Act, 1950, but in order to provide satisfactory safeguards for the railway undertakers' operational land it would have been necessary to make substantial additions to the existing length of the Schedule. A considerable number of additional points would have had to be put in, and it became clear that the provisions that were in the Fifth Schedule, detailed and complicated as they were, were still not sufficiently comprehensive to cover every eventuality that might turn up. Even if they had been added to, and the Bill had been thereby even more complicated, there still would not have been any certainty that every possibility had been covered. The only solution was to remove that Schedule. The new clause which has replaced it will empower the Minister to attach conditions to a compulsory rights order with respect to certain matters which the clause will define in general terms—that is, the manner, the method, or the timing of the carrying out of works authorised by the Order. It means that there will
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  no longer be provisions which have to be applied in all oases, regardless of the widely differing circumstances that may apply: whether it is a busy main line or a branch line, and according to whether the pipe-line crosses the railway line or runs alongside it. Instead, the Minister will be able to attach conditions tailor-made to meet each case.
  A secondary, but by no means unimportant, effect of this change will be that it will be possible to apply special conditions in other cases, such as when pipe-lines cross or run alongside canals, or go through dock areas. It will also be possible to lay down conditions as to the exercise of compulsory rights over ordinary agricultural land for such purposes as ensuring that land, drains, ditches, water courses and so on are properly reinstated that rights of access are preserved, water courses and drainage systems safeguarded, and so on, and that the replacement of hedges and fences is carried out. That was the sort of safeguards for which my noble friend Lord Amherst of Hackney was asking at an earlier stage. I think that, taken in conjunction with the obligation on a pipe-line promoter to restore agricultural land, the new clause will give very good safeguards for the agricultural interests, as well as for the railway interests for which it was intended. My Lords, I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Chesham)
  On Question, Motion agreed to

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  Clause 11, page 11, line 30, at end insert ("subsection (1) of").
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, this is a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  "Clause 11, page 12, line 4, at end, insert ("or be taken to confer a right of support for the pipe-line or length of pipe-line placed, by virtue of the order, in the said land").
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, this Amendment, arises out of the discussion

  143
  of the question whether a compulsory rights order confers any rights of support to a pipe-line laid in land. This is, in a sense, rather a legal question. There was lengthy discussion on this paint, and the Minister considered this subject very carefully in the light of what was said. But he was again advised, as he had been all along, that if there was a question to be answered as to whether a compulsory rights order under the clause as it stands conferred a right of support, the courts would be likely to hold that it did not. But it still can be only a matter of opinion that the court would be likely so to hold, because there have been no cases (there could not have been, of course) strictly comparable to those which might arise under the Bull. It is quite possible that, if the Bill were passed in its present form, it might be necessary for there to be litigation to establish conclusively whether or not a compulsory rights order conferred rights of support. I do not think it would be right to leave the matter like that, and it has never been the intention that it should confer rights of support. That is what this Amendment says, my Lords, and that is what it does.
  THE EARL OF LUCAN: My Lords, would the noble Lord explain what the phrase "rights of support" means.
  LORD CHESHAM: If I can put it in layman's language I will try, though I may have to sit down in favour of the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack. As I understand it, it means that, having acquired the right to put your pipe-line on somebody's land, the owner of the land must not then go and start quarrying gravel and digging material away, and so on, so that your pipe-line collapses. I think that is an oversimplified explanation.
  My Lords, I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  After Clause 11 insert the following new clause:
  Power of Minister to attach conditions to compulsory rights orders
  (".—(1) The Minister may, if he grants an application for a compulsory rights order, attach to it such conditions as he thinks fit (other than a condition for securing a matter that may be secured under the provisions of this Act relating to the safety of pipe-lines) with respect to—

  (a) the manner, method or timing of the execution of pipe-line works authorised by the order;

  (b) the execution, and the manner, method or timing of the execution, of works which it appears to him are or will be requisite or desirable prior to or in consequence of the execution of pipe-line works authorised by the order, or in consequence of a failure to comply with any such condition as has effect by virtue of the foregoing paragraph;

  (c) in a case where the order authorises a pipe-line or length thereof to be placed in land of which the owners are statutory undertakers, being operational land, the execution and the manner, method or timing of the execution, of works which it appears to him are or will be requisite or desirable in consequence of the pipe-line's or length's being situated in such land;

  (d) without prejudice to the generality of the foregoing paragraphs, the execution of works referred to in any of those paragraphs by or under the supervision of the owners of land comprised in the order;

  (e) the payment of costs of the execution of any works or carrying out any other requirements to which a condition having effect by virtue of this section relates;

  (f) the settlement of any dispute arising in consequence of any such condition as aforesaid,

  and any conditions attached to a compulsory rights order under this section shall be set out in a Schedule to the order.
  (2) Subject to the next following subsection, the Minister may at any time on the application of an owner, lessee or occupier (except a tenant for a month or any period less than a month) of land comprised in a compulsory rights order, or of the person for whose benefit such an order for the time being enures, or of his own motion, by order vary the first mentioned order—

  (a) where the first-mentioned order has effect without conditions, by attaching thereto a condition with respect to any of the matters referred to in the foregoing subsection;

  (b) where the first-mentioned order has effect subject to conditions, by revoking or varying any of them or by attaching thereto further such conditions as aforesaid.

  (3) It shall be a condition precedent to the making of an order under the last foregoing subsection that, in the case of an order for which an application is made, the applicant, or, in any other case, the Minister, shall have served on every person concerned (other than the applicant in such a case as is first above mentioned) notice, in the prescribed form, stating the effect of the order and specifying the time (not being less than twenty-one days

  145
  from the date of service of the notice) within which and the manner in which objection to the making of the order may be made to the Minister; and where an objection is duly made by a person on whom the notice has been served, and is not withdrawn, the Minister shall not make the order without affording to the objector an opportunity of being heard by him, and if the objector avails himself of that opportunity, the Minister shall afford to the applicant (in the case of an order for which an application is made under the last foregoing subsection) and any other person to whom it appears to the Minister expedient to afford it, an opportunity of being heard on the same occasion.
  (4) Upon the making of an order under subsection (2) of this section, in the case of an order made on an application, the applicant, or, in any other case, the Minister, shall take such steps for notifying the persons concerned as the Minister may direct, or as the case may be, shall think fit.
  (5) If any works are executed in contravention of a condition attached to a compulsory rights order under this section, the person executing them, or, in the event of a failure by a person to comply with a requirement to carry out any works imposed on him by such a condition, that person shall be guilty of an offence and liable—

  (a) on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding one hundred pounds or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding three months or to both such fine and such imprisonment;

  (b) on conviction on indictment, to a fine or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years or to both a fine and such imprisonment.

  (6) In this section the following expressions have the meanings hereby assigned to them respectively—
  "operational land" in the application of this section to England and Wales has the same meaning as in the Town and Country Planning Act, 1947, and in the application of this section to Scotland has the same meaning as in the Town and Country Planning (Scotland) Act, 1947;
  "persons concerned" means, in relation to a variation of a compulsory rights order, the person for whose benefit the order for the time being enures, and every owner, lessee and occupier (other than a tenant for a month or a period less than a month) of any land appearing to the Minister to be affected by the variation.
  (7) If any question arises, in relation to this section, whether land of statutory undertakers is operational land as defined by this section, that question shall be determined by the appropriate Minister.
  (8) The power conferred by subsection (2) of this section to make orders shall be exercisable by statutory instrument which shall be subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of either House of Parliament.")
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, this Amendment we have already dealt with when discussing No. 24. I beg to move.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  Clause 12, page 12, line 20, after ("in") insert ("consequence of").
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, this is a drafting point. I beg to move.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENTS
  Leave out Clause 13.
  Clause 14, page 16, line 1, leave out from ("(7)") to end of line 2 and insert ("for the words from 'shall be determined' to the end of the subsection there shall be substituted the words 'shall be referred to the arbitration of a single arbiter appointed by agreement between the parties concerned or, in default of agreement, by the sheriff; and in any such arbitration the arbiter may, and, if so directed by the Court of Session, shall, state a case for the decision of that court on any question of law arising in the arbitration.';")
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, these Amendments are taken together, and are consequential on No. 27. I beg to move.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  Clause 15, page 16, line 39, at end insert ("lateral").
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, this is another drafting Amendment. I beg to move.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  Clause 20, page 19, line 21, leave out ("have") and insert ("has").
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, this also is a drafting Amendment. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  Clause 20, page 20, line 13, at end insert—("(4) Subsection (1) of section five of this Act shall have effect where a notice is served under subsection (1) of this section as it has effect where a notice is served under section four of this Act with the substitution, for the reference to the removal of the works required by the notice to be removed, of a reference to the removal of the works or length of line required by the notice to be removed.")
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, this Amendment is consequential on Nos. 8 and 9. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in this Amendment.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENTS
  Clause 22, page 21, line 8, leave out from beginning to end of line 14, and insert—
  ("(2) If at any time the Minister is satisfied with respect to a pipe-line or a length of a pipe-line that, in the interests of safety, the unrestricted use of the line or length ought no longer to be permitted, he may by notice served on the owner of the line—

  (a) require that the line shall be so operated that the pressure of its contents, or, as the case may be, the pressure of the contents of that length of it, will at no point exceed such number of pounds per square inch as may be specified in the notice; or

  (b) prohibit the use (either absolutely or for the conveyance of any thing other than a thing of a particular kind specified in the notice or a thing of a class so specified) of the line or, as the case may be, that length of it, until there have been effected thereto such alterations as may be so specified, being alterations as to which the Minister is satisfied that the effecting thereof will suffice to permit of the resumption of the use of the line or length without restriction.")

  Clause 22, page 21, line 17, leave out ("subsection") and insert ("provisions of this section")
  Clause 22, page 21, line 22, leave out ("subsection(1)") and insert ("the foregoing provisions")
  Clause 22, page 21, line 31, at end, insert—
  ("(4) Where, in consequence of the effecting of alterations to a pipe-line or a length of a pipe-line in consequence of the service of a notice under subsection (2) of this section a person, other than the person on whom the notice was served, suffers loss by reason of damage to, or disturbance in the enjoyment of, any land or chattels, he shall be entitled to compensation in respect of that loss from the person on whom the notice was served.")
  LORD CHESHAM: These four Amendments result from an undertaking given by my noble friend, Lord Mills, in your Lordships' House, to put down an Amendment to give the Minister
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  power to impose requirements of construction in respect of any pipe-line, whether in the course of construction or already laid. This undertaking, as I recall, was given in response to certain anxieties that were expressed on the subject of safety—certainly I can remember the noble Earl, Lord Lucan, being involved in it. I hope that this Amendment will meet his point.
  Under Clause 19 the Minister may impose requirements in the interests of safety, in respect of works which are being or are about to be executed. But there are no powers, as the noble Earl pointed out, in regard to pipe-lines that are already there. I do not suppose that it will be necessary, in practice, to impose very much in this way, but it may be necessary to impose certain minor requirements, such as the insertion of safety devices or the addition of valves for the purpose of isolating certain sections. These Amendments enlarge the scope of Clause 22 so as to cover the points that your Lordships and the noble Earl, in particular, had in mind. I beg to move.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Lord Chesham.)
  THE EARL OF LUCAN: My Lords, I thank the noble Earl for the Amendment on this point. I remember that we did express a good deal of concern on the safety aspect. I think this is not the point on which the noble Lord, Lord Mills, gave an undertaking to me, that retrospective power to impose safety restrictions was needed. I think that this particular Amendment concerns one of the points which the Minister, either on Third Reading or Report stage, agreed was worth looking at, and on which he promised to consider putting down Amendments in another place.
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, I thought I was right in what I said about that, but I must admit that I did not double-check it in Hansard. I certainly thought it was the noble Earl who had been concerned about this point.
  THE EARL OF LUCAN: I certainly was, yes.
  LORD CHESHAM: Others were, too, but in particular I recollect the noble Earl.
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  After Clause 22, insert the following new clause:
  Regulations for securing pipe-line safety generally
  (".—(1) Provisions may be made by regulations with respect to any matter or thing with respect to which it appears to the Minister requisite or expedient to make provision for the purpose of securing the proper construction and safe operation of pipe-lines (or any class of pipe-lines) or the proper execution of pipe-line works (or any class of such works).
  (2) Regulations made by virtue of this section may make different provision with respect to different classes of pipe-lines or works and may make provision for any incidental or supplementary matters for which the Minister thinks it expedient for the purposes of the regulations to provide.
  (3) A person who contravenes any provision of regulations made by virtue of this section shall be guilty of an offence and shall be liable—

  (a) on summary conviction, to a fine not exceeding one hundred pounds or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding three months, or to both such fine and such imprisonment:

  (b) on conviction on indictment, to a fine or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years, or to both a fine and such imprisonment.

  (4) Nothing in regulations made by virtue of this section shall be taken as operating to limit the exercise by the Minister (consistently with the regulations) of any power conferred on him by the foregoing provisions of this Act.")
  4.12 p.m.
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, this is another slightly "blockbusting" Amendment, because No. 38 is the substantive one with Nos. 71, 74, 76, 80 and 85 tailing along in its wake. The noble Lord, Lord Silkin, in his opening remarks, complained that efforts made by the noble Earl, Lord Lucan, opposite, and, as I recall, my noble friend Lord Merrivale as well, had been met with a blank refusal and no reason given. My Lords, I never mind any noble Lord complaining that his Amendment or Amendments have not been accepted, because that is the luck of the game. They cannot be both accepted and rejected, if opposite sides of the House take opposite views of them. Therefore, someone must be disappointed. But I must say that I felt a little disappointed that the noble Lord should have used those words, "blank rejection without reason given," because at the time the Government had certainly taken the view that safety requirements
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  were much better imposed by notice than by regulation. It certainly seemed clear that individual, separate treatment of each pipe-line, since we were dealing with a more or less unknown quantity, was a more effective method of making certain that all the necessary precautions were taken. As I recollect it, my noble friend Lord Mills said that more than once, in extremely clear terms.
  Nevertheless, my Lords, the fact that one thought that, and that the Amendment was rejected at the time, does not mean that no attention was paid to the feelings of noble Lords who disagreed with the Government. Such feelings repeated themselves in another place, and between the two it was decided, when the Minister had further examined the matter, that a provision to make regulations should, after all, be written into the Bill, as an additional power to be used at his discretion. So noble Lords opposite, even if they lost the day at the time, must not think that their efforts proved absolutely fruitless, only to be replaced by efforts in another place, because I can tell them that it was a combination of the feeling expressed in both places that helped lead to this decision. My right honourable friend made it clear that, although he saw no prospect of regulations being made in the immediate future, he was quite ready to see included in the Bill a provision which would enable them to be made in due course, as and when that seemed to be both desirable and likely to be effective. What should go into those regulations is a matter to be settled rather in the light of experience yet to be gained; and that is, of course, the reason for doing it in this way. I hope that noble Lords opposite, and especially the noble Earl, Lord Lucan, will now feel a little happier about this point. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Chesham.)
  THE EARL OF LUCAN: My Lords, I appreciate that our representations have tad some effect, and I express gratification that the opinions of the Government and of noble Lords in all parts of the House now coincide. To the extent that the Minister thinks there is no occasion it present for making regulations I must

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  express some disappointment. I can only hope that in the course of time experience will show that the laying down of safety regulations will be for the benefit of all those who wish to construct pipe-lines.
  LORD MERRIVALE: My Lords, I should like to echo the words of the noble Earl, Lord Lucan, and also to say how delighted I am that my noble friend's right honourable friend has had second thoughts on this matter, and has decided to put down an Amendment which gives him power to make regulations. I am sorry he does not feel that this power will be used at the moment, or in the near future, because I think it is true to say that the petroleum industries and the chemical industries are well aware of the problems involved and could assist my noble friend's right honourable friend very extensively with regard to making these regulations.
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  After Clause 23, insert the following new clause:
  Prohibition of change of use of pipe-line without previous notice to the Minister
  (".—(1) It shall not, when a pipe-line constructed pursuant to a pipe-line construction authorisation or in accordance with a notice given for the purposes of subsection (1) of section two of this Act is first brought into use, be lawful for it to be used for the conveyance of any thing other than a thing of the particular kind, or things of the particular class, stated in the application for the grant of the authorisation or, as the case may be, the notice to be the kind of thing, or the things of the class, proposed to be conveyed in the line unless, not less than three weeks before the date on which it is so brought into use, notice of intention to use it for conveyance of that other thing when it is so brought into use has been given by the owner of the line to the Minister; nor shall it be lawful, after a pipe-line has first been brought into use, for a change to be made in the thing or class of things conveyed thereby unless, not less than three weeks before the change occurs, notice of the change (specifying in what it consists) has been given as aforesaid.
  (2) In the event of a contravention, in relation to a pipe-line of the foregoing subsection the owner of the line shall be guilty of an offence and shall be liable, on summary conviction, to a fine not exceeding one hundred pounds.")
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, this Amendment drags with it Nos. 56, 57, 73, 75 and 93. It deals with two matters. First of all, it deals with change of ownership of a pipe-line; and,
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  secondly, it deals with change in use of a pipe-line. Under subsection (2) of Clause 35, where there is a change of use of a pipe-line the owner must inform the Minister within three weeks from the date the change takes place. It was thought that there had been criticism to the effect that the Minister ought to be notified before any change in use occurred, so that he could impose fresh safety requirements from that time if necessary. This new clause, with the consequent Amendments I mentioned, meets the criticism. It follows logically on the Amendments to Clause 22—that is No. 34 and so on—which will enable the Minister to prohibit or restrict the use of a pipe-line until alterations have been carried out An the interests of safety. A pipe-line, after all, may be safe when carrying one thing and unsafe when carrying another. So before there is a change the Minister should have this opportunity to consider whether he needs to exercise his powers under Clause 22. It also provides that the same period of notice has to be given to the Minister if, once a pipe-line has come into operation, its use is thereafter to be changed. I think, my Lords, this will meat with your Lordships' approval and views on this matter. I beg to move.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  Clause 25, page 23, line 37, leave out ("day") and insert ("date")
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, this is a drafting Amendment. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  Clause 25, page 24, line 24, leave out from beginning to end of line 30 and insert—
  ("(5) The last foregoing subsection shall not apply to Scotland, but in Scotland—

  (a) any expenses incurred by the Minister under subsection (2) or (3) of this section, after giving credit for any amount realised by the sale of materials, may be recovered by him from the owner of the building or structure demolished or, if there is more

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  than one owner, from the owners thereof in such shares as the sheriff may determine to be just and equitable; and any owner who pays to the Minister the full amount of his claim may recover from any other owner such contribution, if any, as the sheriff may determine to be just and equitable;

  (b) any surplus in the hands of the Minister shall be paid by him to the owner of the building or structure demolished, or, if there is more than one owner, shall be paid as those owners may agree or, in default of agreement, as the sheriff may determine to be just and equitable;

  (c) the sheriff within whose jurisdiction the building or structure demolished is situated shall have jurisdiction to hear and determine any proceedings under paragraph (a) or (b) of this subsection; and in determining for the purposes of this section the shares in which any expenses shall be paid or contributed by, or any surplus shall be divided between, two or more owners of any building or structure, the sheriff shall have regard to their respective interests in the building or structure, their respective obligations and liabilities in respect of maintenance and repair under any agreement, whether express or implied, and all the other circumstances of the case.")

  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, this Amendment goes with No. 107. Clause 25 makes provision as to the time of operation and effect of a demolition order made by the Minister to require the removal of a building or structure of some kind erected without consent within 10 feet of a pipe-line. He has power in Clause 25 to recover expenses incurred by him or to dispose of any surplus remaining in his hands as the result of such an order. He has that power only in England and Wales: the Bill as drafted does not cover Scotland in this respect The purpose of this Amendment, together with Amendment No. 107, is that the Bill should also cover Scotland. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENTS
  Clause 29, page 26, line 21, leave out ("are executed")
  Clause 29, page 26, line 22, after ("pipeline") insert ("have been executed (whether before or after the coming into operation of this section)")
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, Clause 29 provides for compensation to be
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  paid to anyone whose interest in land has depreciated as a result of the restrictions imposed by Clauses 24 and 28 on the use of land within 10 feet of a pipeline. The effect of these two Amendments is to make it quite clear that this clause shall have effect in relation to pipe-line works which have been carried out either before or after the coming into operation of the clause. There are a considerable number of pipe-lines which have been laid by voluntary agreement and which will be brought within the scope of the Bill; and if, by doing so, the landowner's interest were to be depreciated, compensation ought to be payable in exactly the same way as in the case of pipe-lines constructed after the Bill is passed. That is what the Amendments do. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENTS
  Clause 32, page 27, line 30, leave out ("and") and insert ("(2)")
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, this Amendment is consequential on Amendment No.13. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  Clause 32, page 27, line 31, after first ("of") insert ("subsection (1) of")
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, this is drafting. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENTS
  Clause 32, page 27, line 37, at end insert—
  ("(3) A person who executes works for the construction of a pipe-line or the diversion of a length of a pipe-line, being emergency works, shall, as soon as is reasonably practicable after the works have been executed,

  155
  deposit with each local authority within whose area lies any part of the route taken by the line constructed or, as the case may be, portion of line diverted a copy (on the same scale) of so much of the map which by virtue of paragraph (b) of subsection (1) of section (Exception for emergency works) of this Act, he is under obligation to send to the Minister as shows the part of that route that lies within that area.")
  Clause 32, page 27, Line 39, leave out ("the foregoing subsection") and insert ("any of the foregoing subsections")
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, both these Amendments are consequential on No. 13. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  Clause 33, page 28, line 20, leave out from ("shall") to ("specifying") in line 21 and insert (",within two weeks after the happening of the event, give to the Minister notice thereof")
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, Clause 33 lists certain events—the cessation of use, abandonment or resumption of use of a pipe-line—when notice has to be given to the Minister; and again it follows discussions with the Opposition in another place. They argued that danger could arise if old piping which had been abandoned was brought back into use without rigorous inspection, and asked the Minister to consider making provision for it. I do not think it is really very likely that a pipe-line owner is going to bring back an old and abandoned pipe-line into use without inspecting it very carefully, including attention to all the safety considerations, because it would clearly be as much in his own interest as anybody else's to make such an inspection. I think the same would apply to a disused pipe-line, though it is possible in this case that somebody might cease using one for three years or more, having every intention of using it again later, and in the meantime keep it in good order. I believe the risks of danger are fairly remote; but, all the same, I think that attention has been drawn to a real point in that Clause 33 as drafted does not specify any period within which notice of the events with which it deals is to be given. The present Amendment
  156
  remedies this defect by requiring it to be given within two weeks. I think it is perfectly sensible and reasonable. My Lords, I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENTS
  Clause 34, page 28, line 30, leave out from ("shall") to ("to") and insert ("in the case of every pipe-line, be the duty of the owner thereof")
  Clause 34, page 28, line 33, after ("given") insert ("(a)")
  Clause 34, page 28, line 36, at beginning insert ("(b)")
  Clause 34, page 28, line 39, after ("water") insert ("or flooding")
  Clause 34, page 28, line 39, leave out ("and") and insert ("(c)")
  Clause 34, page 28, line 45, at end insert ("and
  (d) to any other authority, board or undertakers whom the Minister, by notice served on the owner of the line, requires him to treat, for the purposes of this section, as relevant in relation to the line, being an authority or board, or undertakers, in the case of whom it is stated in the notice that the Minister is satisfied that they will or may have, in consequence of the happening of the event, to take in the public interest steps for such purpose as may be specified in the notice")
  Page 29, line 12, leave out from beginning to end of line 16 and insert—

  ("(b) in the case of any river board, river purification authority, statutory water undertakers or local water authority, to enable them efficiently to take, in consequence of the happening of the event, steps to prevent or combat pollution of water or flooding;

  (c) in the case of a sewerage authority, to enable them efficiently to take, in consequence of the happening of the event, steps for either of the purposes mentioned in paragraph (c) of that subsection;

  (d) in the case of any authority, board or undertakers whom the owner is, by a notice served under paragraph (d) of that subsection, required to treat, for the purposes of this section, as relevant in relation to the line, to enable them efficiently to take, in consequence of the happening of the event, steps for the purpose specified in the notice.")

  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, these Amendments together are to enable the Minister to serve a notice on the pipeline owner requiring him to give the same immediate notification, and to provide similar information when requested, in respect of any authority,

  157
  board or undertaking who the Minister is satisfied may have to take the kind of urgent preventive action, as he would have to give to certain bodies specified in the Bill. It may be that in certain circumstances there will be other bodies who may be required to take some action in the event of a burst or a fire, or anything like that. It occurs to me immediately that underground railways could be in some danger from seepage from a pipe-line into tunnels. It might cause explosion or fire if they were not ready to take appropriate action if it occurred. There might be similar considerations with regard to the apparatus of gas boards or harbour authorities or a number of people who need not normally, in many cases, be brought in on this. This batch of Amendments gives the necessary power for the Minister to direct that they should be fully informed, as are the others. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Lord Chesham.)
  THE EARL OF LUCAN: My Lords, we certainly welcome these provisions, but I would also welcome the fact that the Parliamentary draftsman seems to have been convinced of the advantages of breaking up his paragraph into little subparagraphs—(a), (b), (c) and (d). I would put the thought to the Minister that many Acts of Parliament might be easier for the layman to read if they were similarly broken up.
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, I will certainly convey that to the proper quarters. In the meantime, I am sure the Parliamentary draftsman will be delighted with the noble Earl's words.
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENTS
  Clause 35, page 30, line 8, leave out subsection (2).
  Clause 35, page 30, line 13, leave out ("either of the foregoing subsections") and insert ("the foregoing subsection")
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, these Amendments are consequential on No. 39. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  Clause 36, page 30, line 18, after ("pipeline") insert ("above or")
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, this is drafting. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENTS
  Clause 37, page 30, line 42, leave out ("wire or cable") and insert ("apparatus")
  Clause 37, page 30, line 44, at end, insert ("or the proper functioning of such apparatus")
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, these go together and are small Amendments to ensure that Clause 37, which is intended to secure that any electrical apparatus in connection with a pipeline does not interfere with Post Office lines or electric lines for controlling railway apparatus, includes railway "track circuits", which are used for signalling; and where the current runs up the line itself. They do not appear to be covered at present but now they will be. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENTS
  Clause 38, page 31, leave out lines 15 to 40 and insert—
  ("5. A pipe-line, that is to say, a pipe or system of pipes for the conveyance of any thing, not being—

  (a) a drain or sewer;

  (b) a pipe or system of pipes vested in an area board established by the Gas Act, 1948, or in a board established by the Electricity Act, 1947, or in the Central Electricity Generating Board;

  (c) a pipe or system of pipes forming part of the equipment of, and wholly situate within, a factory or petroleum storage depot or premises comprised in a mine, quarry or mineral field:

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  and exclusive of so much of a pipe or system of pipes forming part of the equipment of, and situate partly within and partly outside. a factory or petroleum storage depot or premises comprised in a mine, quarry or mineral field as is situate within, as the case may be, the factory or petroleum storage depot or those premises.

  In this paragraph—

  (i) 'factory' has the same meaning as in the Factories Act, 1961;

  (ii) 'mine' and 'quarry' have the same meanings as in the Mines and Quarries Act, 1954;

  (iii) 'mineral field' means an area comprising an excavation being a well or borehole or a well and bore-hole combined, or a system of such excavations, used for the purpose of pumping or raising brine or oil, and so much of the surface (including buildings, structures and works thereon) surrounding or adjacent to the excavation or system as is occupied, together with the excavation or system, for the purpose of the working of the excavation or system

  (iv) 'petroleum storage depot' means premises used primarily for the storage of petroleum or petroleum products (including chemicals derived from petroleum) or of materials used in the manufacture of petroleum products (including chemicals derived from petroleum)".)

  4.30 p.m.
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, this Amendment looks rather more complicated than it is. On the Third Reading my noble friend Lord Merrivale was given an undertaking, or at least an assurance, that an Amendment would be introduced, the effect of which would be to exempt from rating a pipe or system of pipes on premises occupied and used for the pumping or raising of brine. This was a technicality, because the scene of brine pumping operations fell into the category of neither a mine nor a quarry. Those are specifically excepted by virtue of Clause 38 of the Bill, and the brine pumping operations should be similarly excepted, which the Amendment does. It was noticed in considering the preparation of the Amendment that the same thing applied to petroleum storage depôts, and therefore opportunity has been taken to deal with them at the same time within the same Amendment. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  Clause 40, page 33, line 26, at end, insert (",and in so doing shall have particular regard to the desirability of ensuring that things constructed in the course of the execution of the proposed works are kept below ground so far as that is practicable.").
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, this Amendment stems from further consideration of the possibility of putting something down designed to ensure that pipe-lines should, wherever practicable and desirable, be placed underground. Your Lordships will recall that my noble friend Lord Colville of Culross moved an Amendment in this sense in Committee, and I had to explain to him at the time that, while we were in sympathy with what he wanted, his Amendment went too far—to the point of being unreasonable and providing that they must be underground even when they did not need to be. This Amendment does not go quite so far, and the effect will be to place on the Minister and the pipe-line developer the duty of having regard to the need to bury pipe-lines in the interest of amenity without requiring the lines to be buried in all cases where it might serve no useful purpose. Therefore, I think this is quite a reasonable compromise which will be acceptable to your Lordships. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENTS
  Clause 43, page 34, line 21, leave out from ("with") to ("deposits") in line 22 and insert ("paragraph (b) of subsection (1) of section (Exception for emergency works) of this Act, subsection (1), (2) or (3) of section thirty-two thereof or subsection (2) of section thirty-four thereof sends ").
  Clause 43, page 34, line 25, after ("recklessly") insert ("sends").
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, these Amendments are consequential on Amendment No. 13. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  Clause 44, page 34, line 39, leave out ("an") and insert ("a public").
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, this is a matter of drafting. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  Clause 44, page 34, line 39, leave out from ("inquiry") to ("as") in line 40 and insert ("caused by the Minister to be held in England or Wales under any provision of this Act (except section thirty-one thereof)").
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, this Amendment is really consequential on Amendment No. 12, which has been agreed with, and Amendment No. 94, which we have yet formally to tackle. Both those Amendments give the Minister power to hold a public inquiry before making the orders to which those Amendments relate. As a result, the Amendment now proposed makes purely consequential amendments to subsection (1) of Clause 44, which relates to inquiries and hearings under the Bill. It is necessary because existing references to inquiries have to be revised. It is only a matter of revising them. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  Clause 44, page 35, line 3, at end insert ("and subsections (4) and (5) of the said section two hundred and ninety shall, with the like modifications, apply in relation to any hearing caused by the Minister to take place in England or Wales in pursuance of any provision of this Act (otherwise than by way of public inquiry or under the said section thirty-one) as if the hearing were a public inquiry caused by the Minister to be held as aforesaid").
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, Clause 44, subsection (1), lays down that the Minister can recover or award costs when any public inquiry is held under the Bill. The Amendment will allow the Minister to recover or award costs at hearings in the same way as he can at public inquiries. I beg to move that
  162
  this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  Page 35, line 6, leave out from ("shall") to end of line 8 and insert ("apply to a public inquiry caused by the Minister to be held in Scotland under any provision of this Act (except section thirty-one thereof) as they apply to a public inquiry held under the said section three hundred and fifty-five, subject to the following modification, namely, that subsection (8) shall have effect as if references therein to the payment of expenses by a local authority not being a party to the inquiry had been omitted and subsections (8) and (9) of the said section three hundred and fifty-five shall, with (in the case of subsection (8)) the like modification, apply in relation to any hearing caused by the Minister to take place in Scotland in pursuance of any provision of this Act (otherwise than by way of public inquiry or under the said section thirty-one) as if the hearing were a public inquiry caused by the Minister to be held as aforesaid.")
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, this Amendment does two things. It makes partly consequential amendments arising from Amendment No. 12 again, and secondly it introduces a small and rather technical modification to the application of Section 355 of the Local Government (Scotland) Act, 1947, to inquiries held under the Bill in order to bring the Scottish application into line with that in England and Wales. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Chesham)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  After Clause 46 insert the following new Clause—
  Provisions as to requirements and prohibitions imposed under this Act
  ("Any power, exercisable by notice, conferred by this Act on the Minister to impose a requirement or prohibition shall be construed as including a power, exercisable in the like manner, to vary or revoke the requirement or prohibition.")
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, the purpose of this new clause is to make it clear, as the Opposition wanted it made clear, that where the Minister has powers under the Bill to impose requirements or

  163
  prohibitions these powers shall be construed as giving him powers to vary or revoke any requirement or prohibition which he has already made. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  After Clause 46, insert the following new clause—
  Provisions as to ecclesiastical property
  (".—(1) Where under this Act a document is required to be served on an owner of land, and the land is ecclesiastical property, a copy of the document shall be served on the Church Commissioners, and where under this Act the seeking of consultation with an owner of land is requisite, and the land is ecclesiastical property, the seeking of consultation with the Church Commissioners shall be requisite also.
  (2) Where the fee simple in any ecclesiastical property is in abeyance it shall be treated for the purposes of an application for a compulsory purchase or rights order in which the property is proposed to be comprised, and of a compulsory purchase of the property in pursuance of a compulsory purchase order, as being vested in the Church Commissioners, and (in the case of a compulsory purchase) any notice to treat shall be served accordingly.
  (3) Any compensation falling to be paid under the foregoing provisions of this Act in respect of damage to land that is ecclesiastical property shall to the extent to which it is payable to the owner of the fee simple in the land be paid (where the fee simple is vested in any person other than the Church Commissioners) to them, instead of to that person, and any compensation falling to be paid under those provisions in respect of the depreciation of the fee simple in land that is ecclesiastical property shall (where the fee simple is vested in a person other than the Church Commissioners) be paid to them instead of to the person in whom the fee simple is vested.
  (4) Any sums agreed upon or awarded for the purchase, in pursuance of a compulsory purchase order, of the fee simple in land that is ecclesiastical property, or to be paid by way of compensation for damage sustained by reason of severance or injury affecting such land (being severance or injury arising from the purchase of land in pursuance of such an order), shall, instead of being paid as provided by the Lands Clauses Acts, be paid to the Church Commissioners.
  (5) Any sums paid under either of the two last foregoing subsections to the Church Commissioners with reference to any land shall, if the land is not consecrated, be applied by them for the purposes for which the proceeds of a sale by agreement of the fee simple in the land would be applicable under any enactment or Measure authorising such a sale or disposing
  164
  of the proceeds of such a sale, and if the land is consecrated, be applied by them in such manner as they may determine.
  (6) In this section the expression "ecclesiastical property" means land belonging to an ecclesiastical benefice of the Church of England, or being or forming part of a church subject to the jurisdiction of the bishop of any diocese of the Church of England or the site of a church so subject, or being or forming part of a burial ground so subject.")
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, I mentioned this matter earlier, but not at length. This new clause and the consequential Amendments that go with it are designed to correct certain defects in the Bill in regard to the service of documents relating to ecclesiastical property. I think I should tell your Lordships that they were suggested by the Church's Main Committee and have been prepared in consultation with the official solicitor to the Church Commissioners. The trouble is that cases could occur, and I believe in fact one has already occurred, where it is desired to lay a pipe-line over land belonging to the incumbent of a benefice of the Church of England. If the benefice happens to be vacant, the fee simple of the land is in abeyance and there is no-one with whom you can deal, either to grant a voluntary easement or to deal with compulsory purchase. Therefore, nothing can be done until a new incumbent takes over, and provision must therefore be made in the Bill for circumstances such as these. These Amendments do it by placing the Church Commissioners in a position to act. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  Clause 48, page 36, line 21, after ("regulations") insert ("for any purpose for which provision is by this Act authorised to be made by regulations and").
  LORD CHESHAM: This Amendment is consequential on Amendment No. 38. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  After Clause 50, insert the following new clause—
  Access to pipe-lines by customs officers
  (".—(1) Where the thing conveyed by a pipe-line is chargeable with a duty of customs or excise which has not been paid, a person commissioned by the Commissioners of Customs and Excise may, in order to get to the line for the purpose of exercising in relation to that thing any power conferred by or under the Customs and Excise Act, 1952, or to get from the line after an exercise of any such power, enter any land adjacent to the line.
  (2) Section ten (obstruction of officers, etc.) of the Customs and Excise Act, 1952, shall have effect as if the reference in paragraph (a) of subsection (1) thereof to an enactment relating to an assigned matter included a reference to this section.")
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, this clause gives customs officers the same right as is given to Ministry of Power inspectors by Clause 39: that is, to cross adjacent land in order to obtain access to a pipe-line where that line is being used to convey dutiable goods in bond. Oil, or hydrocarbon oils, at any rate, are the most likely commodities to be moved in this way. It will often be moved in bulk before duty has been paid, and perhaps other dutiable liquids will be put through as well in due time. If there is a burst or leak or perhaps even a suspected illegal abstraction of the contents, the customs need to have access to the pipe-line for the purposes of investigation or supervision. As things stand, they have the right of access to the pipe-line itself, but not the right of transit over other land to get to it. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  Clause 52, page 37, line 41, after ("sixteen") insert ("subsection (1) of section (Regulations for securing pipe-line safety generally) section (Prohibition of change of use of pipe-line without previous notice to the Minister)").
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, this Amendment is consequential on No. 39. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  Page 38, line 4, after ("In") insert ("subsection (1) of section (Regulations for securing pipe-line safety generally) and in")
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, this Amendment is consequential on No. 38. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  Clause 53, page 38, lime 24, leave out ("sections twenty-two, twenty-three") and insert ("section twenty-two, subsection (1) of section (Regulations for securing pipe-line safety generally) sections twenty-three and section (Prohibition of change of use of pipeline without previous notice to the Minister)").
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, this Amendment is consequential on No. 39. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  Page 38, line 31, after ("In") insert ("subsection (I) of section (Regulations for securing pipe-line safety generally) and in").
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, this Amendment is consequential on No. 38. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  Clause 54, page 38, line 35, after ("thirty-seven") insert ("sections (Exception for emergency works), (Power of Minister to attach conditions to compulsory rights order). (Regulations for securing pipe-line safety generally) and (Prohibition of change of use of pipe-line without previous notice to the minister)")
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, this Amendment is consequential on No. 27. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  Page 38, line 38, leave out ("or").
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, this is the first of twelve Amendments to Clause 54 which have the effect of excluding from the application of the Bill pipe-lines wholly within certain petroleum depôts. This definition, by virtue of Amendment No. 92, will cover premises used wholly or mainly for the storage of petroleum spirit and includes petrol filling stations. Petroleum spirit has the same meaning as it has in the Petroleum (Consolidated) Act, 1928, and broadly speaking, covers aviation and motor spirit but not the heavier fractions of petroleum, such as diesel oil or fuel oil. The primary need for these Amendments is to exclude from the Bill small pipe-lines like those between the tank and pump at petrol filling stations, which otherwise, strictly speaking, would fall within the definition of a local pipe-line. Of course, it was never intended that such lines should be covered by the Bill, but since premises in which they are situated are not factories within the definition of the Factories Act, and therefore they are not excluded by Clause 54, we have to take steps for their specific exclusion. The twelve Amendments do this by making the necessary revisions to Clause 54. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Chesham)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  Page 38, line 40, after ("quarry") insert ("or to a pipe-line forming part of the equipment of, and situate wholly within, a petroleum depot").
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, this Amendment is consequential. I beg to move that the House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Chesham)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  Page 38, line 40, after second ("in") insert ("subsection (1) of section (Regulations for securing pipeline safety generally) of this Act and in").
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, this Amendment is consequential on No. 38. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Chesham)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  Page 38, line 42, leave out ("or quarry") and insert ("quarry or petroleum depot").
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, this Amendment is consequential on No. 78. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Chesham)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  Page 39, line 1, after ("thirty-seven") insert ("and sections (Exception for emergency works), (Power of Minister to attach conditions to compulsory rights orders), (Regulations for securing pipe-line safety generally) and (Prohibition of change of use of pipe-line without previous notice to the Minister) of this Act").
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, this Amendment is consequential on No. 27. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENTS
  Page 39, line 5, leave out ("or")
  Page 39, line 8, after ("premises") insert ("or to so much of a pipe-line forming part of the equipment of, and situate partly within and partly outside, a petroleum depot, as is situate within the depot").
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, both these Amendments are consequential

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  on No. 78. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  Page 39, line 8, after ("in") insert ("sub-section (1) of section (Regulations for securing pipe-line safety generally) of this Act and in").
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, this Amendment is consequential on No. 38. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENTS
  Page 39, line 10, leave out ("or quarry") and insert ("quarry or petroleum depot")
  Page 39, line 13, leave out ("or the said premises") and insert ("the said premises or the depot")
  Page 39, line 18, leave out second ("or")
  Page 39, line 19, at end insert ("or the petroleum depot of whose equipment it forms or will form part")
  Page 39, line 20, after ("section") insert ("(a)")
  Page 39, line 21, leave out first ("and") and insert ("(b)")
  Page 39, line 22, at end, insert—
  ("(c) 'petroleum depot' means premises used or appropriated for use wholly or mainly for the storage of petroleum spirit and includes a petroleum filling station, and 'petroleum filling station' and 'petroleum spirit' have the meanings assigned to these expressions respectively by section twenty-three of the Petroleum (Consolidation) Act, 1928.")
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, these Amendments are consequential on No. 78. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  Clause 55, page 39, line 23, after ("thirty-seven") insert ("sections (Exception for emergency works), (Power of Minister to attach conditions to compulsory rights orders), (Regulations for securing pipe-line safety generally)
  170
  and (Prohibition of change of use of pipe-line without previous notice to the Minister)").
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, this Amendment is consequential on Nos. 24, 27 and 39. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  After Clause 57, insert the following new clause:
  Power of Minister to exclude application of sections 1 and 2 in relation to certain pipelines in particular localities.
  (".The Minister, on application in that behalf being made to him, and after causing if he thinks fit a public inquiry to be held, may by order (made by statutory instrument which shall be subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of either House of Parliament) direct that sections one and two of this Act shall not apply to works executed for the construction of a pipe-line designed for the conveyance of a thing of a particular kind specified in the order or things of a class so specified, being a pipe-line wholly situate within such area as may be specified in or described by the order.")
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, this Amendment is complementary to No. 12, which your Lordships have already accepted. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENTS
  Clause 58, page 40, line 16, at end insert ("or

  (d) a pipe or system of pipes wholly situate within the boundaries of an agricultural unit and designed for use for purposes of agriculture; or

  (e) a pipe or system of pipes wholly situate in premises used for the purposes of education or research; or

  (f) a pneumatic dispatch-tube").

  Clause 59, page 40, line 38, at end, insert—
  ("'agriculture' includes dairy farming, the production of any consumable produce which is grown for sale or for consumption or other use for the purposes of a trade or business or of any other undertaking (whether carried on for profit or not), and the use of land as grazing, meadow or pasture land or orchard or osier land or woodland or for market gardens or nursery grounds, and 'agricultural' shall be construed accordingly;

  171
  'agricultural unit' means land which is occupied as a unit for agricultural purposes.")
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, these two Amendments are designed to meet the purpose which my noble friend Lord Merrivale had in mind when he moved an Amendment at an earlier stage seeking to exclude from the Bill pipe-lines used for agricultural or horticultural purposes or for scientific research or experiment. In addition, it seems wise to exclude from the Bill pneumatic dispatch tubes which are used in some commercial buildings for the delivery of change and messages from one building to another. The Post Office use these on a larger scale for distances up to a mile under the street. There are a number of pipeline system in use on farms or horticultural establishments which, if not excluded, might constitute local pipelines. In the normal way, pipes for irrigation, heating and water are excluded by Clause 53, but pipes may be used for the distribution in liquid form of fertilisers and chemical sprays and it is clearly not intended to bring these within the scope of the Bill. The same applies to pipe-lines entirely within educational or research establishments. I think that this meets my noble friend's point. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENTS
  Page 40, line 38, at end, insert—
  ("' appropriate Minister means,—

  (a) in relation to any railway, light railway, tramway, road transport, water transport, canal, inland navigation, dock, har-hour, pier or lighthouse undertaking, the Minister of Transport,

  (b)) in relation to any undertaking for the supply of electricity, gas or hydraulic power (other than the undertakings of the boards established by the Electricity (Scotland) Acts, 1943 to 1957), the Minister, and in relation to the undertakings of the said boards, the Secretary of State;

  (c) in relation to any undertaking for the supply of water in England or Wales, the Minister of Housing and Local Government, and in relation to any such undertaking in Scotland, the Secretary of State.")

  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, this Amendment is consequential on No. 27. I beg to move that this House doth agree
  172
  with the Commons in the said Amendment.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  Page 41, line 6, leave out from beginning to end of line 11.
  LORD CHESHAM:: My Lords, this Amendment is consequential on No. 70. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  Page 41, line 23, after ("land") insert ("or a street").
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, this is a drafting Amendment. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  Page 42, line 35, leave out from ("railway") to end of line 38.
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, this Amendment also is drafting. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENTS
  Page 42, line 40, at end insert—
  ("statutory undertakers" means any person authorised by any Act (whether public general or local) or by any order or scheme made under or confirmed by an Act to construct, work or carry on a railway, light railway, tramway, road transport, water transport, canal, inland navigation, dock, harbour, pier or lighthouse undertaking or any undertaking for the supply of electricity, gas, hydraulic power or water;").
  Page 43, line 1, leave out from beginning to end of line 4.
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, these two Amendments are consequential on

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  No. 101. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  Page 43, line 6, at end, insert ("but where, in a system of pipes, a number of adjacent parallel lengths of pipe serve the same purpose as would be served by a single pipe of a diameter greater than that of any of those lengths, that number shall be taken to constitute a single pipe.")
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, the purpose of this Amendment is to revise the definition of "a length of pipe-line" contained in subsection (2) of Clause 59. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENTS
  Clause 60, page 43, line 26, after first ("order") insert ("varying or")
  Clause 60, page 43, line 28, leave out from beginning to end of line 36.
  4.50 p.m.
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, these Amendments are consequential on No. 27. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  Clause 60, page 44, line 3, leave out from ("under") to ("which") and insert ("subsection (5) of section twenty-five, or subsection (2) of section twenty-six, of this Act").
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, Amendment No. 107 is consequential on No. 41. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  First Schedule, page 46, line 7, leave out ("twenty-one") and insert ("twenty-eight").
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, Amendment No. 108 goes with Nos. 112 and 113. They are designed to increase from 21 to 28 days the period within which objections may be made to the Minister in the case either of a pipe-line project which has been published in accordance with the First Schedule or in respect of an application for compulsory powers under the section. The period of 21 days was based on the Acquisition of Land Authorisation Procedure Act, 1946. On the other hand, in the case of appeals to the Minister of Housing and Local Government under the Town and Country Planning Act, 1947, the period allowed is 28 days. An increase of a week in the period for lodging objections seems to be quite reasonable; hence the Amendment. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  First Schedule, page 47, line 5, at end, insert—
  ("5. Where the Minister refuses an application for the grant of a pipe-line construction authorisation, he shall give to the applicant a written statement of his reasons for so doing.")
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, this Amendment No. 109 goes with No. 115 and they are to meet a point where it was suggested that the Minister, in cases where he refused an application for pipeline construction authorisation, should give his reasons in writing to the applicant. I think it can be considered that it would be normal for the Minister to give reasons for turning down an application, and, therefore, the Amendments are designed to provide that the giving of reasons shall be done. I understand that that is in accordance with the Lord Chancellor's rules for Town and Country Planning inquiries, and it seems perfectly reasonable. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  First Schedule, page 47, line 8, leave out ("were annexed to") and insert ("accompanied")
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, Amendment No. 110 is drafting. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  Second Schedule, page 48, line 25, leave out ("sub-paragraph (2) of this paragraph") and insert ("subsection (1) of section (Provisions as to ecclesiastical property) of this Act")
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, Amendment No. 1ll is consequential on No. 70. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENTS
  Second Schedule, page 48, line 37, leave out ("twenty-one") and insert ("twenty-eight")
  Second Schedule, page 48, line 47, leave out ("twenty-one") and insert ("twenty-eight")
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, Amendments Nos. 112 and 113 are consequential on No. 108. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  Second Schedule, page 49, line 1, leave out from the beginning to end of line 3.
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, Amendment No. 114 is consequential on No. 70. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  Second Schedule, page 49, line 42, at end, insert—
  ("5. Where the Minister refuses to make a compulsory purchase order, he shall give to the applicant therefor a written statement of his reasons for so doing.")
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, Amendment No. 115 is consequential on No. 109. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENTS
  Second Schedule, page 50, line 13, leave out from ("order") to end of line 14.
  Second Schedule, page 50, line 21, leave out ("head (a) of sub-paragraph (1)") and insert ("sub-paragraph (a)")
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, Amendments 116 and 117 are consequential on Amendment No. 70. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENTS
  Second Schedule, page 50, line 36, leave out from beginning to end of line 9 on page 51.
  Second Schedule, Page 52, line 24, leave out from ("In") to ("there") in line 25 and insert ("paragraph 7, for the words from 'the order shall not be made' to the end of the paragraph")
  Second Schedule, Page 52, line 28, leave out from ("aforesaid") to end of line 32 and insert ("unless he is also satisfied—

  (a) that the nature and situation of the land are such that the exercise thereover of that right will not cause serious detriment to the carrying on of the undertaking; or

  (b) that such conditions will be attached to the order under section (power of Minister to attach conditions to compulsory rights orders) of this Act as will ensure that the exercise over the land of that right will not cause such serious detriment as aforesaid, and certifies accordingly")

  LORD CHESHAM: Amendments Nos. 118, 119 and 120 are consequential on

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  No. 27. I beg to move Chat this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  Third Schedule, page 53, line 38, leave out paragraph 4.
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, Amendment No. 121 is consequential on No. 70. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the commons in the said Amendment.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  Fifth Schedule: leave out the Fifth Schedule.
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, Amendment No. 122 is consequential on No. 27. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  Sixth Schedule, page 60, line 26, leave out ("hereunder") and insert ("hereafter").
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, Amendment No. 123 is drafting. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  Sixth Schedule, page 60, line 36, leave out ("consider") and insert ("considers").
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, Amendment No. 124 is drafting. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

ROAD TRAFFIC BILL [H.L.]
4.58 p.m.
Order of the Day for the consideration of Commons Amendments read.
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, I beg to move that the Commons Amendments be now considered.
Moved, That the commons Amendments be now considered.—(Lord Chesham.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

ROAD TRAFFIC BILL [H.L.]

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  [The references are to Bill [54], as first printed for the House of Commons, and to Bill (23), as amended on Report in the Lords.]
  Clause 2, page 2, line 24, after second ("was") insert ("taken or")
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, Amendment No. 1 is drafting. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  Clause 2, page 2, line 32, at end insert—
  ("(6) Where, after the coming into operation of this subsection, a constable requests any person to provide a specimen of breath—

  (a) subsection (4) of this section shall apply in relation to the specimen as it applies in relation to a specimen of urine; and

  (b) the constable shall offer to supply to that person, in a suitable container, another specimen of breath which he may consent to provide.")

  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, this Amendment adds a new subsection to Clause 2. The effect of it will be that, after it is enforced, a police officer who asks any person to provide a specimen of breath must offer to supply another specimen of that breath in a suitable container. If it is not so supplied, as in the case of blood or urine, evidence of the proportion of alcohol in it will not be admissible. In the case of blood and urine, specimens have to be offered in suitable containers to the accused, and so it will be with breath as and when tests come along. This provision will not be brought into force, of course, until there are proper, adequate and trustworthy methods of both testing and keeping specimens of breath in suitable containers,

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  but it seems wise to take powers now for when that day comes. I beg to move that this House doth agree with he Commons in the said Amendment.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  After Clause 2, insert the following new clause:
  Application of s. 2 to corresponding naval, military of air-force offences
  ("(1) Section two of this Act shall apply in relation to proceedings for a corresponding service offence as it applies in relation to proceedings for an offence under section six of the principal Act, but shall, as to applying, have effect—

  (a) as if references to the court included references to any authority before whom the proceedings take place;

  (b) as if references to a constable included references to any provost officer or any officer or person legally exercising authority under or on behalf of a provost officer;

  (c) as if the reference to the Secretary of State included a reference to the Admiralty and

  (d) as if subsection (3) were omitted.

  (2) In this section—
  "corresponding service offence" means an offence against section seventy of the Army Act, 1955, or section seventy of the Air Force Act, 1955, or under section forty-two of the Naval Discipline Act, 1957, committed by an act which is punishable under section six of the principal Act or would be so punishable if committed in England;
  "provost officer" means any person who is a provost officer within the meaning of either of the said Acts of 1955 or of the said Act of 1957.")
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, under Section 70 of the Army Act a person subject to military law who commits an offence against the ordinary criminal law in the United Kingdom also commits an offence against Section 70 of that Act and can be dealt with by court-martial or, if appropriate, summarily. It is necessary to bring that into line with the ordinary law in respect of Clause 2, and the effect of this new clause is to provide for the application of Clause 2 to proceedings under Naval, Military and Air Force law, in which the corresponding civil offence is to drive contrary to Section 6 of the 1960 Act, which is driving or being in charge of a vehicle when under the influence of drink or
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  drugs. In practice, it means that the kind of evidence which may be given in civil courts in the United Kingdom regarding tests to determine unfitness to drive may also be given in Service proceedings. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Chesham.)
  LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, is it the Government's intention, when we have a new Army or Naval Discipline Act, to incorporate this proposal, or will they rest content with it in this particular Bill?
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, I am afraid that I cannot answer that question without notice; I just do not know. But I will certainly see if I can find out anything and will write to the noble Lord.
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  After Clause 2, insert the following new clause:
  Notification of disease or disability
  ("(1) If, in any proceedings for an offence committed in respect of a motor vehicle, it appears to the court that the accused may be suffering from any disease or physical disability which would be likely to cause the driving by him of a motor vehicle to be a source of danger to the public, the court shall notify the licensing authority in whose area the accused resides and, if he holds a licence, also the authority, if known to the court, by whom it was granted.
  (2) In this section "licence" means a licence to drive a motor vehicle granted under Part II of the principal Act.")
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, subsection (1) of this new clause provides that if information comes to the notice of a court which suggests that the accused person may be suffering from some disease or physical disability which is likely to make his driving dangerous, the court must notify the licensing authority which granted the licence, and also the licensing authority in whose area the accused person lives. In the course of the Report stage of this Bill the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, moved an Amendment which would have required courts to inform the licensing authority of any evidence that the person was suffering in that way, and I accepted the principle behind his

  181
  Amendment and undertook to frame it in rather more suitable drafting. This Amendment is the result.
  The principle he suggested, of the court communicating with licensing authorities has been followed, but the present clause goes rather wider than the noble Lord suggested, in that it covers the case where actual evidence is not given—for example, when there is a plea of guilty and the facts of the case are stated by Whoever is conducting the prosecution. Of course, in many cases the licensing authorities are already informed by the police of disabilities which come to their notice, but the present clause puts that non-statutory arrangement on a statutory basis with the onus on the court to do it. I think it is an entirely approvable arrangement and it meets the point which the noble Lord made and in which your Lordships were interested. I beg to move.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Chesham.)
  LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, we, of course, welcome this Amendment, but I have one question that I should like to put to the noble Lord. He referred to proceedings in which a person might have pleaded guilty and the magistrates, or the court, might feel that the defendant had some physical disability or disease likely to impair his ability to drive. When the court make the report to the licensing authority are we to assume that it will inform the individual that such a report is being made? In such a case there may not be any evidence produced, and therefore, if the court is making this report to the licensing authority, I should have thought it right that the person should be so informed. Then, if he disagreed he would at least have the opportunity of obtaining a medical examination to prove to the contrary. I wonder whether the noble Lord could say whether a person on whom a report is made will be informed of the fact, and perhaps of the character of that report.
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, again I do not think I can say offhand. But I should have thought that if there were a plea of guilty the accused would be aware of the circumstances affecting what he had done; and if part of the cause of the offence to which he pleaded
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  guilty included the fact that he was suffering from some illness or disability it would form part of his plea of guilty, Which he would not make if it were not true. Therefore, though the fact of the illness would not actually be offered in evidence, it might well be something of which the court ought to appraise the licensing authority. I should not have thought there was any possible injustice to the accused if that fact were being considered in support of a case to which he was pleading guilty.
  LORD AIREDALE: My Lords, I should have thought it followed, as night follows day, that it was vitally important, as a matter of sheer courtesy if nothing else, that if the court are to inform the licensing authority that they think Mr. "A" is suffering from some physical disability they should also inform Mr. "A" that they propose to inform his licensing authority to that effect. I should have thought that was absolutely essential.
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, I should have thought again—I think that the noble Lord has a reasonable point—that probably they will. I cannot say for sure. But I should have thought that if it is being stated in court that a man has had an accident, or done whatever he has done, and it is said that this was partly caused because he As blind in one eye, or has epilepsy, or something like that, and the man pleads guilty, he is not putting himself in a position where he is trying to defend himself from that disability.
  LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, surely that is only when the person who has pleaded guilty has raised his disability as a mitigating circumstance, in order that it can be taken into account when a punishment has to be inflicted. The new clause here says:
  " Where it appears to the court that the accused may be suffering…";
  In other words, it may be the opinion of the court that this offence occurred because of a disability. According to this clause, they appear to be able to make such a report without stating so, when they award a punishment or acquit the individual. But it would still appear that, whatever they did, they could make a report that the man suffered from a disability. I think we must press upon

  183
  the Government that where a court does make a report of this character to a licensing authority the person involved should be informed that such a report is being made so that he can take whatever actions he may wish to take.
  VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, I think the noble Lord is making rather heavy weather of this, if I may say so. As I see it (I do not claim to be an expert) the licensing authority cannot do anything without notifying the person. It is only a question of the stage at which he is notified. No action can be taken without notifying him. I should have thought this was just a piece of operating machinery which should work very well.
  LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, in spite of the noble and learned Viscount's remarks, I still think it is a duty of the court, if it is making such a report, to inform the person involved.
  VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, I think the noble Lord is overlooking the fact that the parson involved is before the count.
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMENS AMENDMENT
  Clause 3, page 3, line 9, leave out ("for special reasons") and insert ("is satisfied, having regard to all the circumstances, that there are grounds for mitigating the normal consequences of the conviction and").
  VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, it might be convenient if we take Amendments Nos. 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 35 and 59 together. This is of slightly more sub-stance than the Amendments which have just been considered, and I should like to explain quite shortly what has been happening. The series of Amendments, of which I am now moving the first, relates to the Whole question of special reasons, which were debated quite fully by the House on the two previous occasions when the Bill came before the House, I think both on Report and Committee stage. I successfully persuaded the House that it would be best to leave special reasons, as they then were, and to leave the courts to interpret the meaning of the phrase according to their own learning, which had been developed for some time after two rather well-known judgments of Lord Goddard, when he
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  was Lord Chief Justice, relating to special reasons which are very well known to the profession.
  When this Bill reached another place the provisions ran into a certain amount of criticism very similar to and parallel with the kind of criticisms which came from certain of your Lordships when it was before your Lordships' House. Broadly speaking, they were two quite separate strands of criticism. The first was the strand of criticism which said that the provision for special reasons, coupled with the nature of the offences contained in the Second part of the First Schedule, provided too draconian a code, and your Lordships will remember the moving speeches which were made about offences which might in themselves be trivial but which, none the less, infringed the provisions of the second part of the First Schedule to the code; and I think this was the more powerfully urged set of criticisms. A second and more esoteric, but equally powerfully urged, set of criticisms running in parallel really amounted to the proposition that Lord Goddard was wrong in the series of decisions that he had initiated, and that lawyers thought that by now they really amounted to nonsense. This was most strongly urged by the lawyers in another place. At one stage in the proceedings the discussion between the Committee and the Minister became so warm on these interesting topics that I was actually sent for and had to address an informal meeting which I think was in close touch with honourable members of another Party, so that no one was kept out of the discussion. I undertook at that meeting that I would try to do something to mitigate, to meet, those criticisms. I think it was accepted by another place that my bond had been kept by these Amendments, although I am not pretending that I regard them as absolutely ideal.
  Broadly speaking, what has been done is to take the second part of the First Schedule—that is, the offences which come in for the cumulative penalty and automatic endorsement only—and to apply a new formula to them, putting the burden upon the defendant to mitigate, but otherwise giving the court a discretion, retaining, however, the full draconian nature of the Goddardian special reasons for the more serious offences

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  in Part 1, on the hypothesis that these are intrinsically so serious that there is no need to mitigate the severity of the code in the fear that a purely trivial or technical offence might have been committed. This proved acceptable to another place. As I told your Lordships when it was before your Lord-ships, I should have been prepared to accept the more severe interpretation myself. But Parliamentary discussion leads to concessions, and I cannot say that I think this is an altogether unreasonable one. I would urge the House to accept it. I think justice will be done, and those who pressed upon the Government here that we were taking too severe a line will, I think, accept the fact that there is quite considerable concession being made to their point of view. Therefore, I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in Amendment No. 5.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Viscount Hailsham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  Clause 5, page 4, line 21, leave out from ("If") to ("the") in line 22.
  5.14 p.m.
  VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, this is consequential. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in this said Amendment.—(Viscount Hailsham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  Clause 5, page 4, line 25, leave out from ("so") to end of line 29.
  VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, this, too, is consequential. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in this said Amendment.—(Viscount Hailsham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  Clause 7, page 6, line 1, leave out ("for special reasons").
  VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, this is consequential. I beg to move
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  that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Viscount Hailsham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  Clause 7, page 6, line 4, leave out from ("required") to ("in") in line 8 and insert ("it shall state the grounds for doing so").
  VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, this, again, is consequential. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Viscount Hailsham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  Clause 11, page 9, line 15, at end insert—
  ("(5) The first order to be made under paragraph (b) of subsection (1) of this section shall not be made until a draft thereof has been laid before Parliament and approved by a resolution of each House of Parliament.")
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, your Lordships will remember that Clause 11 (1) (b) of the Bill enables the Minister or the Secretary of State for Scotland to impose by order minimum speed limits on specified roads. Those speed limits will be experimental, and limited initially to four months in each case, and the roads affected must be specified in the orders. If the Minister wishes to extend the order beyond four months the extending order is subject to Negative Resolution, and it will be an offence for anyone to drive at a speed lower than the speed specified in the order, subject, your Lordships will again remember, to such exceptions as may be specified. Your Lordships will also remember, as I do, that the noble Viscount, Lord Simon, and my noble and learned friends Lord Conesford and Lord Goddard, strongly criticised this proposal, on the ground that a quite novel kind of offence was being created in rather general terms and therefore it was only fair to Parliament and the public that the exceptions which the Minister would be able to write into the order should in some degree be specified in the Bill. I think that was the gist of the matter.
  My noble and learned friend Lord Conesford put down some Amendments,

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  one of which was designed to provide that no order should come into force until one such order had been approved by Resolution of each House; so that Parliament could be satisfied as to the exceptions that were to be specified in such an order if one were made. As I say, I accepted the principle of that Amendment, and this undertaking is discharged by the Amendment which I am now proposing. It will enable Parliament to satisfy itself that adequate exceptions are provided in the first minimum speed order and that the courts will set the standard, as it were, for any subsequent orders there may be. I trust that your Lordships will find that satisfactory, and I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Chesham.)
  LORD CONESFORD: My Lords, I thank the Government for this Amendment, which completely fulfils the pledge as the result of which I withdrew my other Amendment. In fact, I had drafted two Amendments. The first was much the better, but the Government said that, if I withdrew it, they would accept the second one in principle. I thereupon withdrew my better Amendment that would have made the Bill even better than it is now. Then they said they would improve the drafting of my second Amendment. That they have now carried out in the Amendment before the House. I thank them for it.
  On Question, Motion agreed to.
  5.19 p.m.

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  After Clause 15, insert the following new clause:—
  Articulated vehicles
  (".A vehicle so constructed that it can be divided into two parts both of which are vehicles and one of which is a motor vehicle shall (when not so divided) be treated for the purposes of the principal Act as that motor vehicle with the other part attached as a trailer.")
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, the effect of this clause is to amend the law to correspond with what it was believed to be from the time of the passing of the Road Traffic Act, 1930, until the judgment of the Divisional Court in the
  188
  case of Moscrop v. Blair in October last year. The Amendment makes clear that for all purposes in the 1960 Act, unless otherwise specifically stated, as it is in Section 69, an articulated combination consisting of two vehicles which, when separate, are a motor vehicle and a trailer, shall, when linked in combination still legally be regarded as two vehicles. Since the Divisional Court declared in the case referred to Chat there was no reason, in fact or in law, why the justices should not have decided that an articulated combination was one vehicle and not two (and therefore that the combination was a "heavy motor car" which might not be driven by anyone under twenty-one) there has been a fair flutter in the dovecots. The fear is that the argument might be extended beyond the particular case, and beyond the subject of drivers' ages; and, if it were generally held that these vehicle combinations formed one vehicle, they would almost all be illegal.
  For thirty years it has been assumed that the appropriate two sections of the Road Traffic Act, 1930, together imply that an articulated outfit is two vehicles, not one. Not only are regulations—such as the Motor Vehicle (Construction and Use) Regulations—drawn up on this assumption (with "articulated vehicle" being specially and specifically defined where for any reason, such as the limitation on overall length, the combination has to be considered as one whole) but certain provisions of the Act made sense only on that basis. The clearest one is probably Section 69, which provides that, in the case of a breakdown only, an articulated outfit may, for the purposes of being towed, be considered as forming one trailer only.
  Though the decision of the Court dealt strictly only with the subject of the minimum age for driving, and that on the particular facts of the case, I do not think we can overlook the repercussions I have mentioned. While most of them would not meet the regulations if they were held to be single vehicles, there is one regulation at least which they cannot conceivably meet, and that is the one which requires the unladen weight of a heavy motor car to be painted on it. Where the drawing vehicle part of an articulated combination picks up and drops any number of

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  trailers in a day, as they often do, it would be impossible to paint the weight on it every time it picks up one vehicle and drops another, and then repeats the process with a vehicle of a different type. Any Amendment in this regard would be immensely complicated, if not impossible. Trailers axe separately licensed and are licensed on the basis, among other things, of weight. There is no provision for what one might call a "chamelion vehicle" which appears, disappears and changes its shape and weight whenever the tractor part and the trailer part are hitched up. Any extension of the argument in this case would produce an administrative tangle which would probably take years and much toil to sort out. It seems, therefore, best to clarify the situation completely by this Amendment. My Lords, I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  After Clause 16, insert the following new clause:
  Defence in certain proceedings against holder of carrier's licence.
  (".In any proceedings under subsection (6) of section one hundred and eighty-six of the principal Act against the holder of a carrier's licence for failure to comply with the provisions of that section or of regulations made for the purposes thereof it shall be a defence to prove that he used all due diligence to secure compliance with those provisions.")
  VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, this is a "due diligence" clause, which was introduced in another place on Report stage following an undertaking given to the other House in Committee by the Government. It is again something of a compromise. Section 186 of the principal Act lays upon the holder of a carrier's licence an absolute duty to keep, or to cause to be kept, current records showing the hours of work of every person employed as a driver and particulars of every journey of a vehicle when goods are carried. As the law stands under the principal Act, if an employer is prosecuted, he continues to be guilty of an offence, however little he may have been to blame for the failure of his driver to keep proper
  190
  records. At first sight that seems very unjust. On the other hand, your Lord-ships will not forget the underlying background which causes the law to impose this duty upon employers.
  In a highly competitive industry like that which we are discussing, there is a constant temptation upon employers to persuade, or over-persuade, their drivers to disregard the law for the time being about the hours of work, or even, in extreme cases, to direct their drivers to disregard the law regarding hours of work. It is therefore not at all unreasonable that the trade unions should attach a good deal of importance to the obligation of the employer to see that the records are properly kept, because, in the nature of things, it is much easier to base a prosecution upon a failure to keep records than upon a breach of the substantive law referring to hours of work. Indeed, one of the marks of an habitual disregard of the law relating to hours of work would normally be reflected in a failure to keep proper records. It is therefore reasonable that the obligation should rest upon the employer.
  On the other hand, again in the nature of the case, it is quite clear that there are limits to what any employer can do to ensure that his drivers do keep proper records, or even that they drive proper hours. There are temptations, of carelessness or otherwise, which persuade them sometimes not to be up to the mark in that respect. The Amendment put the onus of proof clearly and squarely on the shoulders of the employers to establish "that he used all due diligence." This is a phrase which has been adopted in a number of other Acts, some of which will probably be known to your Lordships. The Food and Drugs Act, 1955, Section 113; the Mines and Quarries Act, 1954, Section 156, are the two that I have cited in my notes here. But I am fairly confident that this type of defence is available in quite a wide range of cases of this kind. In the circumstances, I think I can commend it to the House as a reasonable provision. My Lords, I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Viscount Hailsham.)
  LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, we accept this Amendment, but with some reluctance. We certainly do not wish to relieve the employer of the duty of seeing that his drivers carry out What is required, certainly in regard to hours of work, because we believe that it is generally accepted that the chances of accidents increase in relation to the hours which the drivers work. I feel that if they are pushed too far the chances of accidents are certainly increased. I find it hard to believe that the employer will have difficulty in keeping records of the hours worked by their drivers, because these drivers are paid by the hour. They are not salaried people, and obviously a transport company will be paying its drivers for the hours actually worked. Therefore, if the payroll shows that a driver has been exceeding the hours—which can be seen from the driver's claim for wages—I should have thought that was sufficient warning to the employer that the rules were being broken. However, we will accept this Amendment, with, as I say, some reluctance.
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  After Clause 16, insert the following new clause:
  Relaxation of duty of holders of C licences to keep current records
  (".—(1) Current records shall not be required to be kept as mentioned in subsection (1) of section one hundred and eighty-six of the principal Act as respects—

  (a) any journey made by a vehicle to which this section applies, if no point of the journey is more than five miles from the place where the vehicle is normally kept by the person by whom or on whose behalf it is used; or

  (b) the work or rest of any person during any period, by reason only that during that period he is employed in driving such a vehicle on a journey fulfilling that condition.

  (2)This section applies to any vehicle if, and only if,—

  (a) it is authorised to be used under a C licence; and

  (b) its weight unladen does not exceed sixteen hundredweight.

  (3) This section shall continue in force for a period of two years and shall then expire, unless before the end of that period an order is made under subsection (4) of this section and approved by a resolution of each House of Parliament.
  (4)The Minister may by order made by statutory instrument provide either—

  (a) that this section shall cease to have effect at such earlier date as may be specified in the order; or

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  (b) that this section shall continue in force indefinitely, subject to such modification, if any, of the distance of five miles referred to in subsection (1) of this section, and to such modification, if any, of the weight of sixteen hundredweight referred to in subsection (2) of this section, as may be specified in the order.

  (5) This section shall be construed as if it were included in Part IV of the principal Act.")
  5.30 p.m.
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, what this new clause, Amendment No. 13, does is to provide that for an experimental period not exceeding two years drivers of C licence vehicles of an unladen weight of not more than 16 cwt. operating within a maximum radius of five miles of base shall be exempted from the obligation to keep current records of hours of work, and of journeys and loads, as the Road Traffic Act, 1960, requires; and licence holders will be similarly exempted from causing such records to be kept. Secondly, by an Order made before the end of the two-year period, and confirmed by Affirmative Resolution in Parliament, the clause can be continued in force indefinitely and the 16 cwt. and five mile limits can then be modified.
  The clause is mainly an alternative to a clause which was moved and subsequently withdrawn at an earlier stage by my noble friend Lord Derwent. His proposals were not felt to be satisfactory, as what he suggested would, we thought, have been confusing to both employers and drivers and would make enforcement more difficult. In these limited circumscribed conditions, I think that there is a prima facie case for complete exemption from record-keeping on, as I say, this very limited scale and for an experimental period. It does not go as far as my noble friend Lord Derwent would have liked, but in the circumstances, and very cautiously, I think that this is an experiment which the Government are justified in making. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Chesham.)
  LORD STONHAM: My Lords, we are very uneasy about this new clause, first of all, because it seems to leave the way open to quite a degree of possible exploitation with regard to the number of

  193
  hours worked. We appreciate that it is for only small vans, and within only a five-mile radius for local delivery, but that does not mean that there will not be cases where there can be extremely long hours worked, and where man can get just as tired and just as overworked—therefore, increasing their liability to accidents—as if they were on long runs. I wonder whether the noble Lord can tell us the extent to which the unions have been consulted about this.
  Another thing that occurs to me is that the Government are going to agree under this clause that the keeping of records of journeys and hours worked will be suspended for a period of two years, and at the end of that period the Minister will decide to let it lapse—in other words, to return to the present position—or he will decide to continue it for a further period, or he will decide to continue it indefinitely. What occurs to me is this. If operators are not going to keep records, what kind of reliable evidence will there be available to the Minister for deciding that the Order should lapse—in other words, that records should continue to be kept after the expiry of two years—or to prompt him to go on for another trial period? It would seem to me that there are no reliable criteria at all. No one will know how long the man are working, because the records are not being kept. I should not think there would be any reliable criteria, by which you could judge whether in fact such vehicles worked over that limited area would be involved in accidents. Therefore, the provisions which are going to guide the Minister's future judgments in this matter cannot have very much value, because his future decisions will be based virtually on nothing at all.
  I should like the noble Lord to deal with this point, which seems to me to be going back, and seems to be a very unsound basis from which to proceed. It is virtually based on the assumption that these are small local journeys in little vans, and, therefore, the keeping of a log is not going to tell us much as the journeys will be only from one end of a small town to the other, or from a country district into a town, and that kind of journey. They are not going to tell us very much. But, surely, if there is going to be any control at all over this kind of journey, the pre-sent
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  situation is very much better than the proposals under this new clause, which will entirely deprive the Minister of any reliable information on which to base future judgments.
  LORD MOLSON: My Lords, if my memory is not at fault, this is a matter which has been under discussion between the Ministry and those concerned for quite a long time. The argument that was put forward was that it would surely be possible to have some very much simpler way of keeping the records in the case of these vans that were travelling round just locally within a short distance—perhaps it was a shop that was sending them out—and not to have the same kind of elaborate records that were necessary for longer distances. I think that the Ministry has generally been sympathetic to this idea, but has sought in vain to find some simpler way of keeping these records. I think that, for that reason, demands that this should be done have been resisted in the past.
  If my memory is correct about that, it appears that on this occasion it has been decided to give way completely, but only for an experimental period. That may be the best thing to do, but I should like to support what has been said from the Front Opposition Bench that, before this is continued beyond the experimental period of two years, it is very important that we should know how the Ministry could find out whether it is working in a satisfactory way. I agree that it is not going to be easy to find out, because there are going to be no records at all. But I think we should have some assurance from the Government, that this will really be regarded as an experimental period and that, before anything is done to make this a permanent provision of the law, Parliament shall be informed of the result of that inquiry.
  Many of these vans are not in a very satisfactory condition, the hours worked are frequently very long, and it is quite possible that there may be accidents, even within a radius of five miles from the starting point. I am not at all satisfied in my own mind that this concession is really wise, and I am most anxious that, before it becomes a permanent feature of the law of the land, we should

  195
  know whether it has proved in practice to be satisfactory.
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, I think that what has been said from both sides of the House has a considerable basis of reason. It is clear that this is the subject of a very limited experiment, which shows that the Government do not entirely believe that it is a thing that can be done but it is a thing worth trying. I say mo more than that. Of course, I think it goes without saying that there must be evidence produced upon which to base any decision about the future. Otherwise, when it came to any possible extension in the future the Minister could not vary well come to the House and say nothing, because if he had no evidence collected he would have nothing to say as to why it should or should not be continued. So I think that will definitely show what is going on, and there will be evidence available, not in the form of records but in the form of accident records, and other representations will no doubt be made if they are appropriate.
  On this subject of consultation with the unions, I rather wondered at one moment whether the noble Lord, Lord Stonham, was speaking from the point of view of working conditions of the drivers employed or from that of road safety, in so far as they are separate issues. At one moment I thought he was approaching it rather from the viewpoint of one, and at another moment from that of the other. Of course, I cannot give the noble Lord chapter and verse of exactly which union was consulted on which date, but I do know that there was full consultation about it with the unions; and I know that the union view was, to say the least of it, that they were uneasy about the matter.
  If—and I have said this before to your Lordships—we thought that because of this move any great harm was going to come to the principle which is protected by hours of work and rest periods, we would not want any of it; but, without going into all the arguments it seemed that there was a case at least for this experiment. The noble Lord used the word "exploited" in this connection, but I would have thought that if there was anything of that kind going on it
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  would be a matter for the unions to arrange in the normal course of negotiations on working conditions. Out of that would arise evidence—and, after all, the unions are as free as anybody else to make representations in the usual way during the course, or at the end, of the two-year period of this experiment. If there were evidence (I will use the noble Lord's word) of exploitation in that regard, I would have thought it would come to light fairly quickly, and before the end of the period, and that there would have been the accident records, if any, to go by. I can tell your Lordships that the licensing authorities will also be watching this position, and I think it is something that at the moment we ought to agree to do.
  LORD STONHAM: My Lords, I am comforted to some extent by the obvious fact that the noble Lord is himself uneasy about this provision. He asked what I had in mind about union representation. So far as these drivers are in a union, it would mainly be the Transport and General Workers Union, and I do know that they are uneasy about it. The noble Lord put the point as to whether I was concerned about the working conditions of hours, or was concerned from the point of view of road safety. One cannot put a dividing line between them. Unhappily, the position is that a very large number of the men who drive these small vehicles are very badly paid, very badly paid indeed, as compared with the general body of workers. The consequence of that is that, in order to live at all reasonably, they themselves welcome working a lot of overtime, and they themselves, very often unhappily, have been parties to the faking of records that are kept.
  I will go so far as to say to the noble Lord that, unless the Government propose to institute a quite new process of recording accidents, it is quite impossible for the Minister, at the end of two years, to have any reliable evidence at all of the effect of this new clause. The reason is this: that at present accidents involving motor vehicles are recorded in classifications of various tons unladen weight—up to one ton, two tons, five tons and over; that is the classification. But that classification means, of course, accidents in which such vehicles are involved anywhere in the country and on any length

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  of journey. There is absolutely no classification for road accidents which is related to the length of journey. I do not see that the Government can possibly go to the relatively fantastic amount of trouble which it would take to find out, first of all, the numbers of such vehicles engaged within this five-mile radius under 16 cwt.; to disect from the accidents involving vehicles under one ton those under 16 cwt.; and then to disect from those again those which are only doing the five-mile journey. With the best will in the world, the suggestion that the noble Lord has put up—that that is how the Government will gat their information at the end of two years—will not work; that horse will not run at all.
  The plain fact of the matter is that this clause has been introduced as a first step towards doing away with records. It is another step towards exacerbating an evil of which we are all aware: an evil which arises from low wages for this class of work; the consequent exploitation, to which the men are a party; and the further consequence of a higher incidence of road accidents which arises from it. I think this is a most regrettable move; and the explanations given by the noble Lord, which do not satisfy him, certainly do not satisfy your Lordships' House.
  VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, I did not interrupt the noble Lord, for reasons which I hope he will appreciate, but I think I should just say that we are not in Committee and, therefore, it is not strictly in order to speak twice on a Motion, unless one has moved it, except by leave of the House.
  LORD STONHAM: My Lords, I am sorry. I would have asked the leave of the House, but so far those who have spoken twice have not asked leave, and this is the first time I have intervened.
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  Clause 19, page 13, line 31, at end insert—
  ("(c) that the age under which a person may not drive on a road a road roller falling within paragraph 4 of the Table set out in subsection (1) of this section shall, if the roller is of a description specified in the regulations and is driven in circumstances so specified, be seventeen instead of twenty-one;")
  5.42 p.m.
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, Section 97, subsection (1), of the 1960 Act sets out the minimum ages under which a person may not drive various classes of vehicles. For vehicles which are in the categories called heavy locomotive, light locomotive, motor tractor or heavy motor car, which excludes agricultural tractors, the minimum age is 21. Practically all road-rollers, except some very small ones, fall within one or other of these categories, and consequently cannot be driven by anyone under that age. Now it seems that it is very difficult to get road-roller drivers nowadays, because most of the potential recruits have gone into and settled down in some other trade by the time they are 21. I think this may be so, because I understand there are about 1,500 road-roller drivers in this country, and I understand that their average age is 60. The intake of the new drivers in the last few years has been very small indeed.
  A claim to reduce the minimum age for driving these rollers could be entertained only if it were clear that no risk to road safety was invloved. I gather that the majority of rollers which are the biggest worry are those powered by an internal combustion engine, (usually diesel, which are fitted with solid metal rollers and weighing about 11 or 12 tons. Because of their construction, they are limited to a maximum speed of 5 miles an hour. If you think of that, and the fact that rollers, except when they are going from A to B under their own power, are normally used on parts of the road where other traffic does not go; that their braking performance and manœuvrability have improved considerably; and that seventeen-year-olds can drive larger and faster lorries in other circumstances, it seems reasonable to propose this reduction to seventeen for road-roller drivers. I beg to move.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  Clause 19, page 13, line 36, after ("held",) insert (",or was entitled (on making the requisite application and declaration and on payment of the appropriate fee) to the grant of,")
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, Clause 19 contains, among other things, power to make regulations to raise the minimum age for driving an articulated vehicle up to 21. Paragraph (i) safeguards people who at the time of change, if one is made, are above the existing minimum age but below the new one by allowing them to continue to drive the articulated vehicle if they already have the appropriate substantive licence. As drafted, the provision does not cover drivers who are between the old and the new minimum ages and are entitled to hold a substantive licence through test, or however it may be, but for some reason or other do not actually possess one at that moment. Therefore, what it does, by adding to the reference to the holding of a licence a reference also to entitlement, is to put these drivers, who probably will be very few, on the same basis as drivers who are in the middle-age group and actually have a licence. I beg to move.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENTS
  Clause 21, page 14, line 38, leave out ("or displayed")
  Clause 21, page 14, line 42, leave out ("or displayed")
  Clause 21, page 14, line 43, leave out ("or displayed")
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, Amendments Nos. 16, 17 and 18 are all drafting. I beg to move.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  After Clause 22, insert the following new clause:
  Experimental traffic schemes
  (".—(1) For the purpose of carrying out an experimental scheme of traffic control the authority hereinafter specified may by order under this section (in this section referred to as an experimental traffic order) make the like provision—

  (a) as respects any road outside the London Traffic Area, as may be made by an order under section twenty-six of the principal Act (including any provision which may be so made only if the order is made or confirmed by the appropriate Minister);

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  (b) as respects traffic on roads within the London Traffic Area, as may be made by regulations under section thirty-four of that Act.

  (2) The authority having power to make an experimental traffic order—

  (a) as respects roads which are neither trunk roads nor roads in the London Traffic Area, shall be the local authority;

  (b) as respects roads in the London Traffic Area which are neither trunk roads nor roads in the metropolitan police district or the City of London, shall be either the local authority or the appropriate Minister;

  (c) as respects any other roads, shall be the appropriate Minister;

  and the appropriate Minister may, after giving the local authority notice of his intention to do so, by order vary or revoke any experimental traffic order made by the local authority.
  (3)An experimental traffic order shall not continue in force for longer than the following period, that is to say,—

  (a) if it is made by a local authority, a period of three months;

  (b) if it is made by the appropriate Minister, a period of eighteen months;

  but the appropriate Minister may on the application of a local authority direct that an experimental traffic order made by the authority shall continue in force for such further period as may be specified in the direction, being a period ending not later than eighteen months after the order came into force.
  (4) An experimental traffic order—

  (a) may provide for the modification or suspension, while the order is in force, of any provision previously made by or under any enactment, being a provision that could have been made by the order; and

  (b) shall, to the extent that it is inconsistent with any provision subsequently made by or under any enactment cease to have effect.

  (5) A local authority, before making an experimental traffic order, shall consult with the chief officer of police and give such public notice as the appropriate Minister may direct; and where the order would make or vary—

  (a) any provision prohibiting or restricting the loading or unloading of vehicles or preventing such reasonable access to any premises as may reasonably be required for vehicles of any class or description; or

  (b) any provision prescribing routes to be followed or roads not to be used, or not to be used in a specified direction, by any vehicles or the places where any vehicles may or may not wait, or the stopping places for any vehicles being a provision applying to vehicles used by any person in providing a service of stage carriages or express carriages;

  the length of the notice shall be not less than twenty-one days; and the appropriate Minister, before making any experimental traffic order, shall give public notice of his intention to do so.
  (6) Where a local authority proposes to make an experimental traffic order making or varying any such provision as is mentioned in paragraph (a) or paragraph (b) of the preceding subsection and, before the expiry of the notice given under that subsection, an objection to the making or variation of that provision is made to the local authority—

  (a) if the provision is such as is mentioned in the said paragraph (a), by any person;

  (b) if the provision is such as is mentioned in the said paragraph (b), by the person providing the said service:

  and the objection is not withdrawn, the local authority shall not make the order except with the consent of the appropriate Minister; and no experimental traffic order shall, without that consent, be made by a local authority as respects traffic on any road within the London Traffic Area.
  (7) No appeal shall lie to the Minister from the traffic commissioners—

  (a) under subsection (8) of section one hundred and thirty-five or section one hundred and forty-three of the principal Act, in the case of a decision of those commissioners with respect to a road service licence; or

  (b) under subsection (4) or subsection (6) of section one hundred and forty-one of that Act, in the case of a decision with respect to the approval of a route for a road service;

  if and so far as it is certified by the commissioners that the decision was necessary to secure conformity with an experimental traffic order prescribing the routes to be followed, or roads which are not to be used, by vehicles affected by the decision, the places in roads where such vehicles may or may not wait, or the stopping places for such vehicles.
  (8) If a person acts in contravention of or fails to comply with an experimental traffic order he shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding, in the case of an offence committed in respect of a motor vehicle by a failure to comply with a requirement to proceed or not to proceed in a specified direction or along a specified part of the carriageway, fifty pounds and, in any other case, twenty pounds.
  (9) Section twenty-one of this Act shall apply in relation to an experimental traffic order made by the Minister as respects a road in the London Traffic Area as it applies in relation to regulations under section thirty-four of the principal Act made before the end of the period mentioned in the said section twenty-one.
  (10) Any power of the appropriate Minister to make an order under this section shall be exercisable by statutory instrument.
  (11) In this section—

  (a) "local authority" as the same meaning as in paragraph (a) of subsection (2) of section twenty-six of the principal Act; and

  (b) "road", in relation to the London Traffic Area, includes any street as defined in subsection (9) of section thirty-four of that Act.")

  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, we come now to an Amendment which is extremely
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  formidable to look at, but fortunately the explanation does not have to be quite so large. With this Amendment go also consequentially Amendments Nos. 24, 25, 26 and 58. The new clause makes provision for there to be experimental traffic schemes in all parts of the country, instead of just in the Metropolitan Police District and the City of London as at present. I know your Lordships agree, because it has often been urged that we are running into heavy troubles with congestion, particularly in urban areas, and obviously there is going to be an increasing need for schemes of more efficient traffic control in urban areas, not only in London, where a good deal has already been done, but throughout the country as well. Often it is not obvious at the outset which of a number of alternatives is the right solution to any given scheme, particularly one-way traffic schemes, and experience in London has shown that a quick trial may be necessary, followed by a reversion to normal for a period in which the results of the trial can be analysed. On the other hand, it may be urgently necessary to switch from one trial plan to another in order to avoid some difficulty which may not have been foreseen or, indeed, may not even have been foreseeable. The kind of snag which has cropped up in London is the need to ban more right turns, the need to make more waiting restrictions, and the need to make some minor variation in the route, possibly on amenity grounds.
  In London there are already special powers, but they do not exist outside. Until 1957 experiments used to be carried out under Section 21 of the Town and Police Clauses Act, 1847; but in 1957 the Court of Appeal decided that it was ultra vires Section 21 to do so, and since then any experiments, if they were done at all, have been done on a somewhat unofficial basis. I think it becomes necessary now, in the interests of urban congestion and increasing traffic flow, to give local authorities outside London powers to conduct the same kind of experiments as those which exist within the Metropolitan and City Police districts. I do not think it is good enough to expect them to use permanent powers and then cancel the scheme if it is not successful, because that would in many cases entail considerable delay and

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  possibly public inquiry in certain circumstances, and again in other cases the order would require confirmation by the Minister, who has to allow 28 days for objection and so on. It would be much too cumbersome to expect them to do it that way.
  The new clause enables a local authority to carry out an experimental scheme, which has to be limited to three months unless the Minister prolongs it to a maximum of eighteen months, with no preliminary procedure except consulting the police and giving such public notice as the Minister may direct, and in certain circumstances to obtain the Minister's consent. The only point is that exceptions have had to be made in the clause in order to safeguard three particular interests: hauliers, bus operators and those to whose premises access may be prevented by some such experimental scheme. To achieve that there is provision that if an experimental scheme either restricts loading or unloading or denies reasonable access or makes it neceessary to alter a bus route or a bus stop, then the period of notice to be given must not be less than 21 days, and if objections are made in a case involving loading or unloading or access from anyone, or, in a case involving bus routes or bus stops, from the bus operator, and are not withdrawn, then the Minister's consent must be obtained in England and Wales, and the consent of the Secretary of State obtained in Scotland. The local authorities' associations, I understand, have welcomed the new provisions, and I think they are going to prove to be very necessary as well as very desirable. I believe your Lordships will probably welcome them. I beg to move.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Chesham)
  LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord just one question in this matter? No doubt he is aware of the considerable concern about the heavy lorry route through Highgate. Would it be possible under this clause, say if the local authority in Edinburgh says, "For convenience we will put our heavy lorries through what is basically a residential district", for the persons in that district to have an opportunity
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  to make an appeal against this experiment? Because one well knows that if an experiment is conducted and it achieves a freer flow of traffic, in spite of what may be done to the local amenities it is likely to be continued. I hope that if that case should arise where a heavy lorry route or another type of route is used for an experimental period, the local people will have an opportunity of some appeal before their amenities are completely destroyed.
  6.0 p.m.
  LORD STONHAM: My Lords, in saying a word on this point, I have to declare an interest, because I live in Highgate Village. On the question of appeal, can the noble Lord say whether the proposed new clause will provide conditions any different from those which operate in the metropolis now, because I understand that in the case of Highgate there is no formal appeal and no public inquiry? The noble Lord made it clear that the local authority can initiate schemes of this kind, subject, of course, to the Minister's approval, and if at the expiry of three months the Minister so thinks, such schemes can go on for as long as eighteen months. If the Minister himself initiates the scheme, it can go on for eighteen months.
  There are conditions under which a period of eighteen months would drastically change the whole life of a neighbourhood, and it would be impossible to revert to the former position, if it were found that the experiment was not satisfactory. Therefore I wonder whether the period of the experiment should not be very much shorter. Surely it does not take eighteen months to find out whether a scheme is likely to be beneficial or not. I should have thought that a week or two would have been enough. The noble Lord mentioned the local authorities but I understand from the local authorities themselves that in connection with the Highgate scheme they were not approached at all: the Minister had no word with them about it. In fact, at the very moment the Hornsey Borough Council decided to approach the Minister to go on with a scheme first mooted in 1948 they received notification about this new scheme of the Minister. Is this proposed new clause different? Obviously here the local authorities are

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  going to be consulted, whereas in the case I mentioned they were not. Finally, the noble Lord mentioned safeguards for property owners, the road haulage people and bus companies. Apparently the only people whose interests are not to be safeguarded are the most important: the people who live in the area and the travelling public. It seems to me most remarkable that we should be asked to consider a new clause in which safeguards are provided for the interests of the three classes I have mentioned and none at all for the interests of the public.
  VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, I should have thought that the answer was apparent from the actual terms of the Amendment. It appears from subsection (6) (a) that any person can object to provisions mentioned in subsection (5) (a) but in the case of subsection 5 (b) objection is limited to bus operators. Where there is a valid objection in either case, protection lies in appeal to the Minister from the local authority. This is the object of these rather elaborate provisions. They do not provide for a public inquiry, but the defence of that is simply that this is an experimental procedure. If it were going to be a permanent feature of traffic, a public inquiry would be necessary in the ordinary way. The noble Lord said that eighteen months is a long time. But, of course, that is the maximum period. I do not think that one must assume that the maximum would be employed; indeed, those who have had experience would normally assume the contrary. In certain cases the Minister would want to see the effect of traffic at certain times of the year, because it might be altogether different in different places.
  LORD STONHAM: My Lords, is the noble Viscount aware that in connection with the Highgate scheme the Minister has been talking about am experimental period of seven years?
  VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: That, at any rate, could not be done under this section.
  LORD CONESFORD: My Lords, I must admit at once that I have not fully studied this new clause which it is proposed to insert, but I want to associate myself strongly with the protest that is
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  being made against the Minister's making orders that can be quite ruinous to the localities concerned and, even in a short period, dislocate their life altogether. Since this clause has been passed by another place, I am sure that it will also be passed with little delay by your Lordships' House to-night, but I think that it is entirely appropriate that we should say that we are frightened, not about experiments made by the local authorities but about experiments made by the Minister without consulting any of the local authorities concerned and without consulting his own colleagues in the Ministry of Housing and Local Government. I regard the whole scheme for Highgate as a perfectly disgraceful scheme, which should never have been put forward and which is wholly shocking to anybody who has ever looked into any of the planning problems of London. I hope very much that nothing of the sort will be attempted under this new clause, even experimentally.
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  After Clause 22, insert the following new clause:
  Replacement of certain provisions relating to parking places on highways
  ("(1) For sections eighty-six and eighty-seven of the principal Act there shall be substituted the sections set out in the Schedule (Parking places on highways) to this Act.
  (2) Nothing in this Act shall affect any order made by virtue of the said sections before the commencement of this Act, or the operation of those sections or of the Road Traffic and Roads Improvement Act, 1960, in relation to any order made under section eighty-five of the principal Act before the commencement of this Act, except in so far as an order under any of those sections may be varied or revoked by an order made under the sections set out in the said Schedule.")
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, I think that it would be convenient if I discussed with this Amendment Nos. 32, 37, 46, 47, 52, 53, 56, 57, 64 and 65, as they all hang together. The main purposes of the new clause and Schedule are to permit a greater flexibility in fixing the charges for parking at meters; to make provision for new types of apparatus, such as parking ticket machines; to allow more flexibility in the administration of parking meter schemes; to simplify and bring together into one convenient package all the wide complicated and spread-out provisions regulating

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  charges at meters and conditions for their use.
  I am afraid that Amendment No. 37 itself is a very large piece of work, again of formidable appearance; but it is appearance, rather than anything else that is against it. When the Bill was originally introduced into your Lordships' House there were no provisions about meter parking places on the highway. Subsequently a clause was put in—(though it is now left out—to introduce flexibility into the present too rigid arrangements for charging for parking at meters, and to permit any charge to be made for any period, instead of the existing limitation to the standard period of charge, or half of it, which is the only alternative. The additional provisions which we now propose are necessary to make possible the use of new types of apparatus for controlling parking places which are likely to become available in the next few years. The most promising one of these is a ticket-issuing machine which has the advantage that one machine can serve a whole parking place containing a number of cars, instead of having, as at present, a separate meter for each one. This machine, I think, will have a rather special value in places where, for technical, amenity or æsthetic reasons, parking meters would not be suitable. It is not certain precisely how this machine would work in practice, and it is therefore not possible to lay down in the Bill, as has been done for parking meters, the precise conditions which should govern the use of it. Instead, the Minister will be given power to make orders containing such provision as he considers necessary or expedient for regulating the use for parking places, and these orders will be subject to the Negative Resolution procedure.
  I think the power to make these orders is, in general terms, the new Clause 86, which lists the number of specific provisions that may be made; and these are taken, in the main, from points already covered by the I960 Act and the Road Traffic and Road Improvements Act, 1960. The detail of the change is necessarily complicated because it has to deal with complicated and detailed provisions of two previous Acts. But, broadly speaking, the substance
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  of the matter is that it seeks to remove from legislation cumbersome and inadequate restrictions on charges in metered on-street car parks and to give the Minister power to deal with this as he thinks necessary in orders, as well as with all other matters arising in the parking places, including the type of apparatus to be used and the presumption to be made from this apparatus.
  I think that not only is this extra flexibility in demand in various parts of the country where their requirements are different, but there is also a considerable difference, for instance, in demand between market towns inland and seaside places; and I think the flexibility is also reasonable because parking meters have proved their worth, and the principle of charging for the parking of cars is not quite as under suspicion as it was and is much more generally accepted. It is desirable to have this flexibility in order to facilitate the proper development and evolution of parking control so that new ideas and new techniques can be used. I think, from what I can recall of past discussions, that it accords, generally speaking, with your Lordships' views. I beg to move.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  After Clause 22, insert the following new clause:
  Contribution between local authorities providing parking places
  ("Any authority having power under section eighty-one of the principal Act to provide within their district parking places for vehicles may contribute towards the expenses incurred by any other authority in the exercise of their powers under that section.")
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, this Amendment allows for co-operation between local authorities in the provision of parking places. At present a local authority has to get special dispensation from the Minister of Housing and Local Government if it wishes to contribute to the expenses of another authority. Section 81 of the 1960 Act empowers local authorities to provide within their areas suitable parking places for vehicles so that they can relieve congestion; and that section applies to the provision of parking places off highways

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  or, without payment, on highways. But from time to time the situation seems to arise where the site which is most suitable for a car park to relieve congestion in one district happens to be in the adjoining district, and the council where the car park is to be provided may agree to do so but may well insist on having some financial assistance, since the other authority will be the chief beneficiary from it. This point has been taken care of in London by Section 20 of the London County Council (General Powers) Act, 1957. There is another precedent which enables a parish council to contribute to the expense of a cycle parking place in the area of another council, and the clause extends this reciprocal principle to the whole field of off-street and free on-street parking places. I think that it will be of benefit to all concerned. I beg to move.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  After Clause 22, insert the following new Clause:
  Extension of power to authorise compulsory purchase of land for off-street parking
  ("The following provisions relating to the compulsory purchase of land for the provision of parking places under section eighty-one of the principal Act, that is to say, subsection (11) of that section and subsections (8) and (9) of section thirteen of the Road Traffic and Roads Improvement Act, 1960, shall have effect as if the references therein to the said section eighty-one included references to paragraph (a) of subsection (6) of the said section thirteen (which enables a local authority to let land for the provision of parking places).")
  6.18 p.m.
  Viscount HAILSHAM: My Lords, this Amendment requires some explanation, as a piece of legislation by reference. This new clause gives effect to an undertaking which the Parliamentary Secretary gave at the Committee stage in another place by which he induced Mr. Victor Goodhew to withdraw a similar Amendment. The situation is this. Section 81 of the principal Act empowers local authorities to provide parking places, and subsection (11) of that section gives them power of compulsory purchase for the provision of an off-street parking place. Section 13 (6) (I
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  am leaving out the Scottish provisions which are parallel) enables an authority to provide off-street parking places by letting land on which they could erect or adapt a building for the purpose of providing such a parking place with a view to some other person's doing so. Ordinarily I think one would have said that this was providing a parking place, but it is clear that it is not because it is provided by subsection (6) of Section 13 that:
  "Subsections (2) to (7) of Section 11 of this Act shall apply in relation to any parking place provided under any land letting as if it had been provided by the authority under Section 81."
  So it is Clear from the last section that letting does not count as providing.
  The effect of that, of course, is that the authority must run the off-street parking place itself, so as to come within Section 81, in order to acquire the benefit, if it is a benefit, of the compulsory purchase provision; and this leads to a really rather anomalous position. The effect of the Amendment is to extend subsection (11)—Which is the compulsory purchase provision—of Section 81 to the provision of parking places by letting, as well as those places which are run by the local authority itself. Some people might see an issue of great importance in this. I think that if we were in a very controversial mood we might argue about it a long time, but I have an idea that, if it were not for the fact that it adds to compulsory purchasing powers, I might have got away with it by saying that it was a drafting Amendment. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Viscount Hailsham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  After Clause 22, insert the following new clause:
  Warning devices for indicating temporary obstructions
  ("Regulations under section fifty-one of the principal Act prescribing any type of object or device for warning traffic of a temporary obstruction may include provisions for authorising, subject to such conditions as may be specified in the regulations, persons not otherwise authorised to do so to place an object or device of that type on or near roads or on or near

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  any description of road so specified, in such circumstances and for such periods as may be so specified.")
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, the purpose of this Amendment is to give the Minister power to authorise the placing of warning signs on the road when it is temporarily obstructed by a vehicle which has broken down or been damaged in an accident. Under existing legislation the driver whose vehicle is so obstructing the road is not authorised to put up any sign, even if the vehicle's lights have failed when it is dark. Technically it is an offence wilfully to obstruct the highway without lawful authority or excuse, and it could certainly be held that such a sign could do so. Traffic signs may be put up only by the police or the highway authority. I think there is no doubt that vehicles which break down, possibly just around a corner or something like that, do cause accidents, especially where traffic is fast.
  This clause empowers the Minister, in conjunction with the Secretary of State for Scotland, to prescribe in regulations the kind of warning device or sign which may be used, the persons who may put it on the roadway, the circumstances where it can be used, and the conditions with which its position on the road must comply. Therefore, he will be able to make it permissible for a warning sign to be put out where it is justified. Experience as to how this works in practice at the end of a year or two of experiment will enable consideration to be given as to whether all vehicles or, at any rate, certain classes of vehicles ought to be required to carry one and put it out when appropriate. There has been a certain amount of discussion of this point, generally I think on Questions, in the past; my noble friend Lord Gosford has raised the matter on one or two occasions, and I think probably he may welcome this clause. I hope your Lordships will, too. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENTS
  Clause 24, page 16, line 4, after ("nine") insert ("or section (Experimental traffic schemes)")
  Clause 24, page 16, line 9, leave out ("section nine") and insert ("sections nine and (Experimental traffic schemes)")
  Clause 24, page 16, line 26, leave out ("section nine") and insert ("sections nine and (Experimental traffic schemes)")
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, these three Amendments are all consequential on Amendment No. 19. I beg to move.
  Moved, That the House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  After Clause 25, insert the following new clause:
  Regulation of motoring events on public highways
  ("(1) A person who, after such day as the appropriate Minister may by order made by statutory instrument appoint, promotes or takes part in a competition or trial (other than a race or trial of speed) involving the use of motor vehicles on a public highway shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding fifty pounds unless the competition or trial is authorised, and is conducted in accordance with any conditions imposed, by or under regulations under this section.
  (2) The appropriate Minister may by regulations authorise, or provide for authorising, the holding of such competitions and trials as aforesaid, either generally, or as regards any area, or as regards any class or description of competition or trial or any particular competition or trial, subject to such conditions. including conditions requiring the payment of fees, as may be imposed by or under the regulations.
  (3) Regulations under this section may—

  (a) prescribe the procedure to be followed, and the particulars to be given, in connection with applications for authorisation under the regulations; and

  (b) make different provision for different classes or descriptions of competition or trial.")

  6.24 p.m.
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, this clause gives powers to bring about control of motoring events, which would principally be rallies, reliability trials and treasure hunts, on public highways. It makes it an offence subject to a maximum fine of £50 to promote or take part in such competition or trial involving the use of motor vehicles on the highway unless the event is authorised in accordance with regulations made by the appropriate Minister. The regulations would specify the conditions for holding authorised events or for authorising without conditions, though they could,

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  in effect, exclude any type of event or events in particular areas from the provisions of the clause. In his regulations the Minister could delegate to anyone he thought appropriate the power to authorise events, and he could enable the authorising body to charge fees as a condition of the granting of authority. The appropriate Minister will decide by an order made by statutory instrument when the clause is to come into effect.
  Since the power to authorise events will be exercised by regulations, the provisions of Section 260 of the Road Traffic Act, 1960, will apply, and these will give sufficient safeguards for consultations before regulations are made. The regulations will have to be laid before the House and will be subject to the Negative Resolution procedure. I think that the part of the clause which provides for charging fees is right, because it is not intended—and I do not see why it should be—that any extra cost arising from the administration of this system for authorising events should fall on the Exchequer, and I think the control system should be self-financing. It would, of course, control all competition events and trials involving the use of cars and motor-cycles on the roads. It is intended that it should operate only for rallies, treasure hunts, reliability trials and events of that kind. It may be that in some parts of England and Wales there is no need to control these events, and the regulations would authorise the holding of events in those areas without any conditions. Possibly there may be no need at present to control them in Scotland; and until there is need, the Secretary of State may withhold bringing the clause into effect there.
  I should like to make it quite clear there is no intention of controlling rallies or treasure hunts or reliability trials or similar events out of existence. The object of the clause is to secure a reduction to manageable and acceptable proportions of the number of events that do take place, and to try to spread them out somewhat. We also intend that the regulations should authorise events such as the "Lorry Driver of the Year" competition and the "Motor-Cyclist of the Year" competition, both of which are road safety enterprises but which carry out part of their tests on selected
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  roads. They would also authorise the kind of competition which local road safety committees organise in the interests of road safety. So far as these events are concerned, very few complaints are made on road safety grounds. The people who compete in them are subject to the road safety laws in the same way as anybody else is—indeed, the organisers often insist on a very strict observance of them.
  I think it is generally accepted that rallies are probably, on balance, a good thing in the interest of road safety, because they encourage batter driving technique and skill and more interest. The only control at the moment, of course, comes from the R.A.C., and that extends only over the clubs which are affiliated to it, as the governing body of motoring sport in this country. They control these events in such matters as roads and timing, the number of fixtures they hold, and the areas they go in. They have certain black spot areas where they are not allowed to go at all. But that, of course, does not apply to events run by clubs which are not affiliated, and which may not even be motoring clubs at all—they may be social clubs, in the broadest sense, or clubs of some other kind which simply decide to hold a rally or treasure hunt or something like that.
  There have been many complaints recently—mostly, in fact almost entirely, on amenity grounds—and the number of events that take place is increasing. I think it has now gone up to between 3,000 and 4,000 each year. Most of the complaints seem to come from the Home Counties, and relate much more to noise and disturbance in rural areas, probably from events held at night—not only engine noise, but noise at check points, such as slamming doors and Shouting directions and so on.
  A meeting was held about this at which were represented the County Councils Association, the Rural District Councils Association, the N.F.U., the Chief Constables from the Home Counties, Scottish interests and the R.A.C.—almost Uncle Tom Cobleigh and all. The meeting was strongly in favour of control with the R.A.C. designated as the body to do it, and of a motor sport advisory committee to be set up as well. I think that is what my right honourable friend would want to do, to set up an advisory committee, which is not a

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  statutory committee but one Which advises him on the kind of event that ought to be allowed or on the delegated responsibility that would devolve on the R.A.C. whom he had in mind to do this particular job.
  As I say, it is not that anyone is against this form of sport, which is extremely popular and useful. It is a question of taking the power to control it before it gets out of hand and gets worse, because while one does not want to interfere with this useful form of competition the comfort and convenience of people has to be balanced up with it. I think the time has come—I hope and believe that the proposed regulations will be successful in this respect—where those concerned can continue with their sport and those who are only indirectly concerned from outside will have the necessary safeguards, and all can live happily. It is better, I think, to do it now rather than to wait until something worse befalls. I beg to move.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Chesham.)
  LORD STONHAM: My Lords, I feel that this clause is highly commendable, and certainly I sympathise with its objectives. I have nothing against notification or the regulations which the Minister will draw up with regard to car rallies and reliability trials. But when the regulations are drawn up I foresee a difficulty in regard to what the noble Lord, Lord Chesham, referred to as "treasure hunts", which can cover a wide field of endeavour. There is not always treasure at the end of it, but there is some competitive element in working out the number of clues en route and arriving at an eventual objective. A number of these things are quite small and often impromptu. Often there is not an organisation which has been advertising for weeks ahead that they are going to hold a motor cycle or a car treasure hunt. Some of the social organisations to which the noble Lord referred—I have even known one group of Young Conservatives do this—quite suddenly organise a thing of this kind. Even a small one can be just as much a nuisance to inhabitants of rural areas as 10 other parts.
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  It seems to me that the difficulty is as to how the regulations are going to deal with that kind of thing. Is it going to be prohibited altogether? In other words, have you to get a licence or some approval for a particular function of that kind, however small it may be? The noble Lord said that in parts of Scotland or Wales there is no need to prohibit these activities by regulation, because the roads are not likely to be congested or much used. I appreciate that point, but equally it is the case that these particular treasure hunts are not likely to be held in such areas, because they have not so many people to take part in them. It is more likely that they will be held in more populated rural areas, or indeed that the treasure hunts may involve a rural area with young people coming from a town.
  The noble Lord mentioned the number of some 3,000 functions of this kind. I have no doubt he referred to those we know about, those which are organised. But there might well be 10,000 small ones that we know nothing about, simply because they are on a local basis and were arranged with little fuss and bother. I imagine that we should wish to take regard of these things. But there are two difficulties. One is not to interfere with people's reasonable enjoyment, provided they behave themselves without danger or inconvenience to other people. The other thing concerning these small events is how the organisers, or indeed the competitors, are to know that they may be committing an offence. There is this question of notification. One can understand that the kind of people who organise major events, car rallies and so on, Will know all about these things, and will get permission and fix a date and a day and make their arrangements with the police. But I wonder how the regulations will be able to deal with the small, semi-impromptu affairs which take place all over the country?
  LORD CONESFORD: My Lords as many Members on both sides of another place showed, there is a great necessity for some legislative provision of this kind, and for that reason I am glad that the Government have thought fit to introduce a clause dealing with this problem. I think my noble friend may have been quite right in suggesting that none of us wished to make illegal every event

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  of this kind, but at the same time I think he under-estimated the suffering caused by some of the events that have been taking place. There are inhabitants of some villages whose life has been made intolerable night after night. They have even taken the extreme step of organising parties to sit down in the road and to bock it. I saw a statement in one organ of the Press, that they knew they had no legal rights but thought that their moral right was so overwhelming that they took this step. I nearly went so far as to suggest that they might even have some legal rights.
  That brings me to one of my criticisms of the new clause. Had it been introduced at an earlier stage, or in this House, I am perfectly certain that various Members would have suggested some improvements. The particular doubt I have—I know it is not fair to press my noble friend on this because he is not a lawyer—is this. It seems to me not impossible that some of the outrageous events that have been organised, which disturb whole villages night after night, could possibly have been restrained under the provisions of the Common Law. There are provisions that deal with conspiracy and nuisance that might not have been found to be quite impotent. Whatever we do with the new clause, I should not like it to be said that we were enabling the Minister to authorise anything which could at present be restrained at Common Law, and I do not think that that is quite clear under the clause as it now stands.
  The second matter on which I wish to question my noble friend is this. The Minister has said that he proposes to set up an advisory committee—not a statutory committee, I agree, but an advisory one. From some words that dropped from my noble friend, I thought he implied that that advisory committee would consist almost wholly of people interested in organising motor events. I hope that that will not be the case. The advisory committee should, without any doubt, have representatives of local authorities, and it should certainly, in my submission, have representatives of other road users. There are still pedestrians in this country. Some of the highways that may be proposed for these events may technically be highways, but
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  nevertheless be very popular for use by walkers, ramblers, and others. I think that pedestrians should be represented on this advisory committee. I think also that amenity societies should be represented on it. This is of great interest, I think, to the Council for the Preservation of Rural England, in certain areas to the National Trust, and in all areas, I think, to the Noise Abatement League.
  Therefore, while welcoming this clause, but regretting that it has been brought forward so late that neither House has had much chance to consider it in detail and amend it, I would express a wish on one point and a doubt on the other. The wish is that when the Minister sets up his advisory committee it will not prove to be a committee of those interested only in promoting this alleged sport, but also include representatives of local authorities, of amenity societies and of other road users.
  The second matter which I personally deplore, but about which I quite agree the Minister can do nothing at this stage, is the fact that this clause does not make it clear, on the face of it, that the effect of the Minister's authorising one of these events will not make it lawful, if it could be restrained under the existing Common Law. I agree that, if we accept this Amendment, it is too late to do anything about that, but at least it may make the Minister a little careful when he comes to decide what it is he will authorise.
  My Lords, I have ventured to put before the House matters I believe to be of considerable importance, but I certainly do not wish to oppose the clause.
  6.42 p.m.
  LORD CHAMPION: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Conesford, has said much that I wanted to say, particularly on consultation (with local authorities, and in regard to the point that, when these events are authorised, they should be authorised only over suitable roads. It happens that about four years ago when in mid-Wales I was travelling in the opposite direction to one of these rallies, on a very narrow road. I was forced off the road, and two of my wheels went on to the verge on the left-hand side; my wheels started to sink, and they went down to the axle on

  219
  that side. At least twenty of the competitors passed me, going in the opposite direction. Not a single one of them stopped to ask whether I wanted assistance, or whether they could send someone along to help. This was a society which had a London name—it may have been called the London Rally, or something like that. I admit, my Lords, that I was too lazy to write about that incident, although I felt indignant at the time, and I just let it pass. But it has always rankled in my mind that something ought to be done to stop these rallies if that sort of thing happens to ordinary road users.
  The noble Lord, Lord Chesham, told us that these events helped to develop road safety and the proper usage of the roads. If that is so, that was a pretty poor example which I experienced of the decent use of the roads by people who regard themselves, I suppose, as good motorists. In any case, they did not have the ordinary courtesy to stop and say, "Can I help you?" or "Can I do anything about this?" I hope that the Minister will be pretty tight in these regulations to try to ensure that the sort of thing that happened to me will not happen to other ordinary road-users; that where these events do take place, there shall at least be room for other road-users to pass with reasonable comfort in the opposite direction. It is possible that the rally was organised on a time basis—I do not know; but they certainly did not have time to stop in order to help me out of my difficulty. Eventually one of my passengers had to go back to get help.
  LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, if it had not been for the few words of my noble friend, I should have said we were dealing with associations and clubs that, in the main, try to be reasonable. It is true that they inflict on certain neighbourhoods a lot of hardship, but they do not set out to do that. The point that concerns me with this clause is the question of what one might call the unofficial clubs of motor cyclists. I do not know whether the noble Lord, Lord Chesham, has been down Sidcup By-pass or any of our main arterial roads out of London on a Saturday or Sunday, but he will see, 25 to 30 miles outside London, 60 to 70 heavy motor-cycles proceeding
  220
  along the road, making a great deal of noise, and usually travelling at a very fast rate. I believe there is a phrase "doing a ton". These people are as great a nuisance and as great a danger and inconvenience as any of these official rallies—in many ways perhaps more so. But it would not seem to me likely that that type of unofficial club will go to the Minister and say, "We are going out on Saturday. Can we have permission?"
  Here we are dealing with, I think, relatively civilised people, but when one considers these groups of motor cyclists one feels that some control needs to be exercised over them. Obviously, the Police are not able to do it to-day. But these groups of motor cyclists are increasing. On the roads at week-ends they axe a complete menace and a danger, and certainly they make life very difficult in the villages. I hope that the Minister, if he cannot do this within this clause, will consider some future means of controlling this nuisance.
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, may I start at the end? The problem which the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, has just raised is, of course, a different one. This practice may have the same effect in a way in that it is undesirable, or is having an undesirable effect on some people's lives, but it is a different one by virtue of the fact that it is unorganised and not an event of itself. When I was listening to the noble Lord, the thought came to my mind that it was rather like the kind of event which is fastened on to in some rather dictatorial countries, where people are not allowed to go about together more than two at a time. This is really another problem of how to tackle it. The difficulty is, as I say, the completely unofficial, unorganised aspect of the whole thing. This is primarily a problem for the police to deal with, and thought will have to be given to whether they require extra powers ox new methods, or whatever it may be.
  To revert to our particular subject, the noble Lord, Lord Stonham, asked what would be the position of little unofficial affairs in connection with something else. I think it is difficult for me to say to him to-day exactly what would be the position, whether they would be included or excluded in some way from

  221
  the regulations, because what I thought was really rather more important was that the noble Lord asked how they would know. The answer is that it is intended to publicise the regulations as and when they are made, on television, through the motoring associations, and in the usual methods to which publicity gives rise. Otherwise, the position in this, as in many other cases, is that ignorance of the law is no excuse. I am bound to say that.
  With regard to what my noble and learned friend Lord Conesford said, I should be extremely surprised to find that the Minister would be in a position to authorise something which might be restrained at Common Law. I think if I pursue this point it will get us down to a legal "niggle", if I may call it that, on the interpretation of the word "authorised". I do not want to indulge in that with my noble friend, not only because I should probably come off second best if I did, but also because I think that his feeling on that is stretching legal interpretative elasticity almost to snapping point. But I am glad to say that he did not pick me up quite correctly, in what I said about the advisory committee. I thought I said that at meetings that had been held, there had been many representatives of the interests concerned. I do not know whether I said it or not but I will say it now, to make it absolutely clear. It has already been said in another place that it was intended to set up the advisory committee representative of all interested bodies.
  LORD CONESFORD: My Lords, I still want to know what the noble Lord means by that. That may be quite right, but "all interested bodies" might be taken to mean all interested in promoting this type of event. I wanted to make it clear that I mean all those also who are affected by it.
  LORD CHESHAM: I think, my Lords, that is exactly what it does mean, as I have understood the matter at any rate.
  LORD CONESFORD: Good.
  Lord CHESHAM: There must, of course, be rather strong representation of the people concerned because otherwise they are unable to advise the Minister on the type of event he should include
  222
  or exclude from his regulations. Nobody else would know that. Because I think we are going to find that that kind of expertise is going to be necessary, as in due course I think we are going to come across quite a number of events in which the interests involved will say, "You must not allow this kind of thing no matter Where it goes and when"; and I certainly would not want to think that there was no fairly strong representation of that kind. I will certainly see to it that what my noble friend has said is conveyed to my right honourable friend before he makes any regulations.
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  Leave out Clause 29, and insert the following new clause:
  Replacement of certain provisions relating to offences in Scotland
  ("As respects offences committed after the commencement of this Act, for sections two hundred and forty and two hundred and forty-six of the principal Act there shall be substituted the sections set out in the Schedule (Offences in Scotland) to this Act.").
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, Amendment No. 28 goes with Nos. 38, 60 and 61. It was suggested in another place that it would assist if the effect of the amendment which Clause 29 makes were written out at length, and this my right honourable friend the Lord Advocate said he would consider doing, and he did so. This Amendment is the result. Apart from presentation, there is no difference between this and the present clause which is being replaced. I beg to move.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  After Clause 29, insert the following new clause:
  Wearing of protective headgear
  ("(1) The Minister may make regulations requiring, subject to such exceptions as may be specified in the regulations, persons driving or riding (otherwise than in side-cars) on motor cycles of any class or description specified in the regulations to wear protective headgear of such description as may be so specified.
  (2) Regulations under this section may make different provision in relation to different circumstances.
  (3) Any person who drives or rides on a motor cycle in contravention of regulations under this section shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding fifty pounds.").
  Lord CHESHAM: My Lords, this is an Amendment which would enable the Minister to make regulations requiring drivers or pillion passengers on motor cycles to wear safety helmets. It will not give him power to require sidecar passengers to do so, but he could require both the driver and pillion passenger, or only the driver or only the pillion passenger to wear one. He could exempt from the requirement certain types of rider, such as children under fourteen whom it might be difficult to fit with helmets, and he could also exempt certain types of machine such as mopeds. Although there are objections, and pros and cons of arguments, by and large it seems in the interest of the community that my right honourable friend should have the power to make such wearing compulsory. I can say this. My right honourable friend does not intend at the present time to make it compulsory, because he wishes to continue to do his best, by propaganda and other methods, to persuade people who ride motor cycles to wear them voluntarily. The latest figures I have heard reveal that 67 per cent. of male riders wear them, and 70 per cent. of females. That is pretty good, but it still leaves 30 per cent. who are at considerable risk. My right honourable friend wishes, as I say, to try to continue by persuasive methods to get them to wear helmets, but I think it is right, and I am sure your Lordships would wish, that he should have these powers in reserve for use if necessary. I beg to move.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  After Clause 29, insert the following new clause:
  Driving with uncorrected defective eyesight
  ("(1) If a person drives a motor vehicle on a road while his eyesight is such (whether through a defect which cannot be or one which is not for the time being sufficiently corrected) that he cannot comply with any requirement as to eyesight prescribed under the principal Act for the purposes of tests of competence to drive, he shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding fifty pounds or imprisonment for a term not exceeding three months.
  (2) A constable having reason to suspect that a person driving a motor vehicle may be guilty of an offence under subsection (1) of this
  224
  section may require him to submit to a test for the purpose of ascertaining whether, using no other means of correction than he used at the time of driving, he can comply with the said requirement as to eyesight; and if that person refuses to submit to the test he shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding fifty pounds.")
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, this is an Amendment which I feel will commend itself to you. The object of this new clause, to which Amendment No. 36 is complementary, is to make it an offence for anyone to drive a motor vehicle on the road if at the material time he is incapable of meeting the eyesight standard laid down for the driving test, using glasses, of course, if necessary. In brief, what it means is that, if you can pass the eyesight test with your glasses on, then you should wear them for driving. If you cannot pass it with them off, it is not good enough to pass it with them on, and then not wear them, if your eyesight is defective without them. I beg to move.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Chesham.)
  LORD AIREDALE: My Lords, I wonder if the noble Lord and his colleagues, in connection with this Amendment, have considered the practice which I think obtains in certain parts of North America, whereby a person who needs spectacles for driving has that fact recorded on his driving licence. It would certainly seem to make it easier for the police to enforce provisions of this kind if that course were adopted here; and the noble Lord has just said that it is not good enough for a person who needs glasses to drive without them.
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, I should like to think about that one.
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  Clause 33, page 19 line 15, leave out from ("paragraph") to ("(which") in line 16 and insert ("(b) of subsection (1) of section sixteen of the Vehicles (Excise) Act, 1962".)
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, this Amendment is drafting. I beg to move.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  Leave out Clause 34.
  7.0 p.m.
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, this Amendment is consequential on No. 20. I beg to move.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  After Clause 34, insert the following new clause:—
  Approval marks
  (".—(1) Where any international agreement to which the United Kingdom is a party provides—

  (a) for markings to be applied to motor vehicle parts of any description to indicate conformity with a type approved by any country; and

  (b) for motor vehicle parts bearing those markings to be recognised as complying With the requirements imposed by the law of another country;

  the Minister may by regulations designate the markings as approval marks, and the use of any markings so designated shall be deemed for the purposes of the Merchandise Marks Acts, 1887 to 1953, to be a trade description, whether or not they are commonly taken, according to the custom of the trade, to be such an indication as is mentioned in paragraph (a) of this subsection.
  (2) Any person who, without being authorised by the competent authority to apply any approval mark, applies that mark or a mark so nearly resembling it as to be calculated to deceive shall be guilty of an offence against the Merchandise Marks Act, 1887, whether or not he would be guilty of such an offence apart from this subsection.
  (3) Section two of the Merchandise Marks Act, 1891 (which provides for the prosecution by the Board of Trade of certain offences under the Merchandise Marks Act, 1887) shall not extend to the prosecution of any offence committed in connection with an approval mark.
  (4) The conditions subject to which approval of any type may be given on behalf of the United Kingdom or the use of approval marks indicating conformity with a type approved by the United Kingdom may be authorised may include such conditions as to testing or inspection and the payment of fees as the Minister may impose.
  (5) In this section "motor vehicle part" means any article made or adapted for use as part of a mechanically propelled vehicle or a vehicle drawn by a mechanically propelled vehicle, or for use as part of the equipment of any such vehicle; and "the competent authority" means—

  (a) as respects any approval mark indicating conformity with a type approved by the United Kingdom, the Minister; and

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  (b) as respects any approval mark indicating conformity with a type approved by any other country, the authority having power under the law of that country to authorise the use of that mark.

  (6) Any fees received by the Minister under this section shall be paid into the Exchequer.")
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, this rather lengthy-looking Amendment does quite a simple and uncontroversial thing. It enables this country to adhere to an agreement which was drawn up at Geneva on March 20, 1958, with regard to the adoption of uniform conditions of approval and reciprocal recognition of approval for motor vehicle equipment and parts. The object of it is to bring about standardisation of various national systems which currently exist in Western Europe for the approval of component parts of motor vehicles. It is desirable that we should be able to adhere to this because of the difficulties encountered by our manufacturers if we do not; and, if we are going to adhere to it, my right honourable friend the Minister requires the powers that are given him by this clause to make arrangements for the necessary approval and marking of type parts. I beg to move.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  Clause 39, page 20, line 30, after ("Act") insert ("except so much thereof as relates to proceedings under the Army Act, 1955, the Air Force Act, 1955, or the Naval Discipline Act, 1957, and section (Approval marks)").
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, this Amendment deals with the application of Amendments Nos. 3 and 33, which your Lordships have accepted, to Northern Ireland. I beg to move.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  First Schedule, page 21, line 30, column 2, at end insert (",the words from 'if the court' to 'punishment for the offence' shall be omitted,").
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, this is consequential on Amendment No. 5. I beg to move.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  First Schedule, page 25, line 21, at end insert—

  ("25. An offence under section (driving with uncorrected defective eyesight) of this Act (driving with uncorrected defective eyesight or refusing to submit to test).")

  —

  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, this Amendment is consequential on No. 30. I beg to move.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  After the First Schedule, insert the following new Schedule—
  ("Parking Places on Highways (Provisions replacing Sections 86 and 87 of Principal Act)
  Regulation of parking in places designated under s. 85
  86.—(1) The Minister shall by order prescribe the charges to be paid for vehicles left in a parking place designated under the last foregoing section, and any such charge may be prescribed either—

  (a)as an amount (hereinafter referred to as an initial charge) payable in respect of an initial period and an amount (hereinafter referred to as an excess charge) payable in addition to an initial charge, in respect of any excess over an initial period; or

  (b)as an amount payable regardless of the period for which a vehicle is left.

  (2) The Minister may by order make such provision as he considers necessary or expedient for regulating or restricting the use of a parking place designated under the last foregoing section, or otherwise for or in connection with the operation of such a parking place, and in particular, but without prejudice to the generality of the foregoing provision, provision—

  (a) for regulating the time at which and the method by which any charge is to be paid and for requiring the use of apparatus of such type or design as may be approved by the Minister, either generally or specially (hereinafter referred to as a parking meter) being apparatus designed either—

  (i) to indicate whether any charge has been paid and whether the period for which it has been paid or any further period has elapsed, or

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  (ii) to indicate the time and to issue tickets indicating the payment of a charge and the period in respect of which it has been paid;

  (b)for treating the indications given by a parking meter or any ticket issued by it, or the absence of any such ticket from a vehicle left in a parking place, as evidence, and in Scotland sufficient evidence, of such facts as may be provided by the order;

  (c) for prohibiting the insertion in a parking meter of coins additional to those inserted by way of payment of any charge;

  (d) for enabling the local authority to determine, subject to any restrictions specified in the order, the number and dimensions of the spaces in which vehicles may be left in a parking place;

  (e) for authorising the alteration of the position in a parking place or the removal from a parking place of vehicles in respect of which any order of the Minister has been contravened or not complied with, and for the safe custody of vehicles so removed;

  (f) for exempting from the payment of any charge any vehicle left in a parking place in such circumstances as may be specified in the order and for treating any vehicles so exempted as having been left there, and the charge from which it is exempted as having been paid, at such time as may be so specified;

  (g) for prohibiting or restricting the carrying on of trade or other activities, or the doing of any other thing at a parking place;

  (h) for conferring on the local authority powers of illuminating parking places, and of erecting notices or signs and carrying out work on or in the vicinity of a parking place.

  Provisions supplementary to ss. 85 and 86
  87.—(1) Where, under a designation order, vehicles may not be left at all times in the parking place designated by it—

  (a)the parking place shall for the purposes of sections eighty-six and eighty-eight of this Act be treated, as respects any time during which vehicles may not be left there in pursuance of the order, as if it were not designated by the order;

  (b)any vehicle left in the parking place which remains there at the beginning of a period during which vehicles may be left there in pursuance of the order shall for the purposes of those sections be treated as if it had been left there at the beginning of that period, but without prejudice to any rights or liabilities in respect of anything done or omitted at any time before the beginning or after the end of that period.

  (2) A designation order may revoke the designation of any place as a parking place under section thirty-four or eighty-one of this Act, and such an order, or a regulation under the said section thirty-four containing a designation of a place as a parking place or an order under the said section eighty-one containing such a designation, may provide that the designation shall not have effect as respects

  229
  any time as respects which provision is made under section eighty-five of this Act for the leaving of vehicles in that place.
  (3) The Minister may by order empower the local authority, the chief officer of police, or any other person specified by or under the order to provide for the moving, in case of emergency, of vehicles left in a parking place designated under section eighty-five of this Act, to suspend the use of such a parking place or any part thereof on such occasions or in such circumstances as may be determined by or under the order, and to provide for the temporary removal of any parking meters installed at such a parking place.
  (4) Any local authority may acquire, whether by purchase or by hiring, such parking meters and other apparatus as appear to the authority to be required or likely to be required for the purposes of their functions under sections eighty-five and eighty-six of this Act and of this section.
  (5) Where provision is made for the use of parking meters it shall be the duty of the local authority to take the prescribed steps for the periodical inspection of the meters and for dealing with any found to be out of order, and for securing the testing of the meters (both before they are brought into use and not less frequently thereafter than may be prescribed or on other prescribed occasions) and for recording in the prescribed manner the date on which and the person by whom a meter has been tested.")
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, this Amendment is consequential on Amendment No. 20. I beg to move.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  After the First Schedule, insert the following new Schedule—
  ("Offences in Scotland (Provisions Replacing Sections 240 and 246 of Principal Act)
  Penalty for aiding, abetting, etc., commission of offences in Scotland
  240. As respects Scotland, a person who aids, abets, counsels, procures or incites any other person to commit an offence against the provisions of this Act or any regulations made thereunder shall be guilty of an offence, and shall be liable on conviction to the same punishment as might be imposed on conviction of the first-mentioned offence.
  Inclusion in indictment in Scotland of certain summary offences
  246.—(1) A contravention occurring in Scotland of any of the provisions of this Act or of any regulations made thereunder, which is directed to be prosecuted summarily and which, if it had been triable on indictment, could competently have been libelled as an additional or alternative charge in an indictment
  230
  charging a person with culpable homicide in respect of the driving or attempted driving or use of a motor vehicle, or with a contravention of section one, section two or section six of this Act may, notwithstanding the direction aforesaid, be so libelled and may be tried accordingly.
  (2) In this section any reference to a contravention of regulations includes a reference to a failure to comply with regulations.")
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, this Amendment is consequential on Amendment No. 28. I beg to move.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  Second Schedule, page 30, line 6, at end insert—

  ("Section four

  In subsection (1), for the words 'statutory speed limit' there shall be substituted the words 'limit imposed by or under any enactment mentioned in subsection (3) of this section'.

  For subsection (3) there shall be substituted the following subsection—

  '(3) The enactments referred to in subsection (1) of this section are—any enactment contained in this Act; section two of the Parks Regulation (Amendment) Act, 1926; any enactment passed after the commencement of this Act'."

  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, sub-section (1) of Section 4 of the Road Traffic Act stipulates the penalty for exceeding a statutory speed limit, and Clauses 3 and 6 of the Bill provide for an increase in that penalty. Subsection (3) of Section 4 provides for the substitution of the fine stipulated for any penalty for speeding stipulated in or under any enactment relating to a speed limit contained in any Act passed before 1934. That covers a variety of other Acts under which speed limits are imposed, and in fact it is intended to level up the penalty for speeding throughout the various Acts under which it can be infringed. There seems, in fact, to be some doubt whether the penalty contained in the Parks Regulation (Amendment) Act, although dated 1926, applies

  231
  to the Royal Parks. It seems doubtful that the penalty provisions apply in the Royal Parks as they do on the road, and this Amendment makes it clear that they do. I beg to move.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Chesham.)
  LORD CONESFORD: My Lords, perhaps I might thank the Government for this Amendment. I think it arises out of a Question which I put years ago and which was answered by my noble and learned friend the Lord Chancellor, and will give great relief, I think, to the friends of Richmond Park.
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENTS
  Second Schedule, page 30, line 10, at end insert—

  ("At the end of the section there shall be added the following subsection:—'(6) The power to give general directions under subsection (1) of this section shall be exercisable by statutory instrument.'")

  Second Schedule, page 30, line 42, at end insert—
  Traffic signs

  ("Section fifty-two

  At the end of the section there shall be added the following subsection:—' (3) The power to give general directions under subsection (1) of this section shall be exercisable by statutory instrument'.")

  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, Amendments Nos. 40 and 41 go together. General directions about traffic signs have in the past been given by Statutory Instrument, but there is no power to do this in the 1960 Act, and we can no longer do it. It is very convenient for everyone concerned, the public and the local authorities, that general directions regarding traffic signs should be made Statutory Instruments because Regulations regarding traffic signs are Statutory Instruments. In fact, the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions, 1937, were made as a single Statutory Instrument. That is a very convenient handbook, but it cannot be renewed as a single document unless these Amendments are made. The power got lost by accident, I understand. When the
  232
  Consolidation Act was passed in 1960, and we should like to have it back for the obvious reasons that I have mentioned. I beg to move.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  Second Schedule, page 30, line 44, after (1) insert ("for paragraphs (b) and (c) there shall be substituted the following paragraphs:—

  (b) the emission or consumption of smoke, fumes or vapour and the emission of sparks, ashes and grit;

  (c) noise' and in the words following paragraph (j)")

  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, Amendments Nos. 42 and 45 go together. They are rather more than drafting, and they are intended to facilitate the introduction of more specific Regulations on matters about which, until recently, there were not available scientific methods for setting up and enforcing standards, other than general standards. It relates largely to smoke and noise, about which your Lordships are rightly concerned. That is what these two Amendments do. I beg to move.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  Second Schedule, page 30, line 47, at end insert—

  In subsection (4), the following shall be inserted after paragraph (c) and

  (d) of vehicles or trailers carrying loads of exceptional dimensions'.")

  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, this is a slightly more important Amendment, because its purpose is to enable the Minister to make orders under subsection (4) of Section 64 of the 1960 Act to authorise the carriage by ordinary commercial vehicles—that is, those that comply with the Construction and Use Regulations—of loads which exceed dimensions allowed by Regulations made under Section 64. The point of this

  233
  is that we want to control, but not to prohibit, the movement of certain indivisible, wide loads on ordinary vehicles which comply with the Construction and Use Regulations. The point about it is this: if you put a large, indivisible load on an ordinary vehicle at the moment, it can move freely on the roads subject to notifying the police, and only if you put it on a specially-constructed vehicle does it have to be authorised by an order made by the Minister. That is the point, and we want to be able to control the large, indivisible loads when they avoid the present control, exercised by the Minister, by being put on ordinary vehicles. That is what this Amendment is for. We want to have control, whether it is on a special vehicle or on an ordinary one. I beg to move.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Chesham.)
  LORD STONHAM: My Lords, does it mean that as a result of this Amendment the Minister will have more power to refuse some of these special loads, which in many cases cause major inconvenience and annoyance, quite apart from a great deal of expense to the taxpayer; and will he, in fact, be able to reduce the maximum permitted length, which at present I believe is 52 feet—not of special loads but of ordinary loads? Can this new Amendment be used for either of those purposes?
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, the answer broadly is, Yes, if that is what the noble Lord wants. The answer broadly is (that there is a slight loophole for conveying exceptionally large loads without the control of the Minister which the Minister wishes to get, so that he can control and, in some cases, prohibit or otherwise control better than at present these large loads.
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  Second Schedule, page 31, line 3, column 2, at beginning insert—

  ("In subsection (8), after the words 'change in the length' there shall be inserted the words 'of the period specified under subsection (3) of this section or' and for the word 'regulations' there

  234

  shall be substituted the words 'order or, as the case may be, regulations'")

  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, this is the Amendment to which I referred earlier to-day, about vehicle tests. Under Section 66 of the 1960 Act the Minister can make an order substituting a period shorter than ten years for a vehicle. We know that. Experience has shown that when a large number of vehicles first become liable for test it would be wise to find some method of staggering them—phasing them out, I think was the phrase used. At present, because of the existing provisions of the Act, that cannot be done. All the Minister can do is to make an order, and then come back and make another order which cancels or repeals the previous order. It would be much more convenient to be able to phase one group, say one year's registration of motor cars between five and six years old, somehow into a few different groups. As I say, that cannot be done at present, and it is in order that it can be done in future that this Amendment is put in. I beg to move.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  Second Schedule, page 31, line 31, at end insert—
  ("Testing of vehicles on roads

  Section sixty-seven

  In subsection (1), after the word 'reflectors' there shall be inserted the words 'and as to the prevention or reduction of smoke, fumes or vapour'")

  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, this Amendment is consequential on No. 42. I beg to move.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Chesham)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENTS
  Second Schedule, page 32, line 2, leave out lines 2 to 54.
  Page 33, line 2, column 2, at beginning insert—

  ("In subsection (1), in paragraph (a), for the words 'by the order' there shall be substituted the words 'by an order relating to the parking place', and for the words from 'prescribed' to 'foregoing section' there shall be substituted the words 'so authorised'."

  In subsection (2), for the words from 'prescribed' to 'foregoing section' there shall be substituted the words 'authorised by an order relating to the parking place'.

  In subsection (5), for the words from 'the prescribed description' to the end of the subsection there shall be substituted the words 'a type and design approved by the Minister'.")

  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, these Amendments are consequential on No. 37. I beg to move.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  Second Schedule, page 33, line 5, at end insert—
  ("Minimum age for driving

  Section ninety-seven

  In the proviso to subsection (2), after the word 'held' there shall be inserted the words 'or was entitled (on making the requisite application and declaration and on payment of the appropriate fee) to the grant of'.")

  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, your Lordships approved an Amendment Whereby, in the event of the driving age for articulated vehicles being raised from 17 to 21, those who were caught in the middle, entitled to but without licences, should be entitled to get one. This Amendment does exactly the same for people who would be caught in the same circumstances if the minimum age for motor-cycles were raised from a lower figure to a higher one. I beg to move.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMON AMENDMENT
  Second Schedule, page 33, line 42, at end insert—
  ("Northern Ireland drivers' licences

  Section one hundred and sixteen.

  For subsection (3) there shall be substituted the following subsection:—

  (3) If the holder of any such licence is convicted of an offence and the court orders particulars of the conviction to be endorsed in accordance with section five of the Road Traffic Act, 1962, the court shall send those particulars to the Minister'.")

  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, I will try to keep this point Simple. This Amendment relates to attempts to overcome a difficulty which exists in regard to holders of driving licences issued in Northern Ireland (these licences, of course, are valid in this country) who are convicted of driving offences involving endorsement of their licence. The procedure is different. When you drive on a Northern Ireland licence the court, if they order it to be endorsed, instead of endorsing it under Section 116 of the Road Traffic Act, have instead to send particulars of the conviction of an endorsable offence to the Minister. That is what the Act says. It follows that people driving on Northern Ireland driving licences in this country will never come in for the provisions of to-day's Bill, by virtue of the fact that they will never get their licences endorsed, and the cumulative disqualification provision in particular can be circumvented by doing that. So I should imagine that, before long, we should all have Northern Ireland driving licences, which I do not think is quite the idea. The Amendment puts this straight—I will not go into the technicality of exactly how it brings them in—so that that loophole is closed. I beg to move.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Chesham)
  LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, am I to understand that if you start off with a Northern Ireland driving licence and you become a resident in this country, you can still continue indefinitely to be driving on a Northern Ireland driving licence?
  Lord CHESHAM: No, my Lords; only during the period of its validity.
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  Second Schedule, page 33, line 42, at end insert—
  ("Approval of type vehicles

  Section one hundred and thirty.

  In subsection (2), after the words 'after examining' there shall be inserted the words 'if he thinks fit'.")

  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, this Amendment is to meet a nuisance point. The existing legal requirement is that every individual new public service vehicle has to be examined by a certifying officer, and it is desired to make possible the introduction of a system of type approval, so that while the certifying officer will retain his discretion to examine any vehicle that comes along, if a vehicle is offered to him with a certificate of conformity to type he may accept that, if he so chooses. At the moment, as the Act is drawn, he cannot do that. He has no discretion in the matter and he cannot accept it. Quite frankly, with this arrangement I think we shall have quite a saving of useful professional manpower in this respect. I beg to move.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  Second Schedule, page 34, line 22, column 2, at beginning insert—

  In the proviso to sub-section (1), for the words 'he produces the same in person' there shall be substituted the words 'it is produced'.")

  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, this is one which I think will be useful both to the public and to the police. At the moment if you are required by a policeman to show your driving licence, insurance certificate or, now, the vehicle test certificate, you may, in certain circumstances be able to do it within five days, instead of showing it at the time. As the law stands, you have to show it in person, and in some circumstances that is becoming a little bit of a bore;
  238
  because a number of commercial firms have block insurances with a master certificate, which means that the company secretary has to go off with the driver to the police station to display it. Therefore, it is suggested that, particularly as the insurance certificate and the test certificate relate to the vehicle and not to the driver, it need not necessarily be done by the driver at the time in person; but that that should not include the driving licence, which should certainly be shown by the driver in person. Also, it is thought that, as long as that is so, the police work will be much easier, because if there is any irregularity in the licence the person probably has it with him, and it makes it easier for them if he has to show it in person. I think this is a small but reasonable idea. I beg to move.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENTS
  Second Schedule, page 34, line 37, column 2, leave out ("paragraph") and insert ("paragraphs")
  Second Schedule, page 34, line 41, column 2, at end insert—

  ("(h) any ticket issued by a parking meter")

  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, Amendments Nos. 52 and 53 are consequential on No.37. I beg to move.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENTS
  Second Schedule, page 35, line 18, leave out from ("for") to end of line 28, and insert ("sub-paragraphs (i) and (ii) of paragraph (c)")
  Second Schedule, page 35, line 37, at end insert ("and after that paragraph there shall be inserted the words")
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, Amendments Nos. 54 and 55 deal with Section 241 of the Road Traffic Act, which provides that a person shall not be convicted of certain offences unless he was either warned at the time of the offence that proceedings would be considered or was within fourteen days served with a summons of notice of an intended prosecution. The first part of the Amendment

  239
  is intended to clarify the nature of the notice which the police require to give. On reconsideration, it seems unnecessary to amend the whole of paragraph (c). The present statutory requirements have been the subject of a number of High Court decisions, and if we made this change now, it might cast doubt on these decisions and cause a good deal of confusion. I think that it would be best to leave the paragraph as it is, except for the Amendments indicated. I beg to move.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENTS
  Second Schedule, page 37, line 14, column 2, at beginning insert—

  In subsection (7) of section five, for the words 'section eighty-seven' there shall be substituted the words 'section eighty-six or eighty-seven'.")

  Second Schedule, page 37, line 17, column 2, at end insert—

  ("In subsection (6) of section eleven, in paragraph (6), after the word 'evidence' there shall be inserted the words 'and in Scotland sufficient evidence'.

  In subsection (1) of section fifteen, for the words 'under subsection (8) of section eighty-seven' there shall be substituted the words 'relating to a parking place designated under section eighty-five'.

  In subsection (1) of section sixteen, for the words 'under subsection (8) of section eighty - seven' there shall be substituted the words 'relating to a parking place designated under section eighty-five'.")

  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, these two Amendments are consequential on No. 37. I beg to move.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMON AMENDMENT
  Second Schedule, page 37, line 17, at end insert—
  ("Experimental traffic schemes

  The Road Traffic and Roads Improvement Act, 1960 8&9 Eliz. 2.c.63.

  In subsection (1) of section nine, at the end of paragraph (a) there shall be inserted the words 'or any order made by him under section (Experimental traffic schemes) of the Road Traffic Act, 1962'.")

  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, this Amendment is consequential on No. 19. I beg to move.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  Third Schedule, page 38, line 16, at end insert ("In section one hundred and ten, the words from 'if the court' to 'punishment for the offence.'")
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, this Amendment is consequential on No. 5. I beg to move.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENTS
  Third Schedule, page 38, leave out lines 43 to 52.
  Third Schedule, page 39, leave out lines 5 to 9.
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, these two Amendments are consequential on No. 28. I beg to move.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENTS
  Third Schedule, page 39, line 14, column 3, leave out ("and (d)") and insert ("(d) and (e)").
  Third Schedule, page 39, line 15, column 3, after ("paragraphs") insert ("2 to").
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, these are formal Amendments. Owing to the bringing into effect of certain sections of the 1960 Act, certain paragraphs are no longer valid, and these Amendments remove them. I beg to move.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Lord Chesham.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENTS
  Third Schedule, page 39, line 17, column 3, at beginning insert—

  In section six, sub-section (2).

  In section fifteen, sub-section (8).")

  column 3, after ("Schedule") insert ("the entries relating to sections eighty-six and eighty-seven of the principal Act, in the entry relating to section eighty-eight thereof, the words from 'and at the end' to the end of the entry and").
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords these two Amendments are consequential on No. 37. I beg to move.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Lord Chesham.)
  LORD AIREDALE: My Lords, may I take this opportunity of congratulating the noble Lord on leading us through nearly the whole of 189 Commons Amendments to two Bills and in the process showing such an easy mastery of the minute details of these two Bills?
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, I am extremely grateful to the noble Lord for his very kind words: they make me feel a lot better.
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

SCHOOL ATHLETIC COMPETITIONS
7.24 p.m.
LORD WISE LORD WISE rose to ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are aware of the conditions under which school athletic competitions are carried on at present on a national and international level, and whether direct financial assistance can be given to encourage and foster such beneficial physical and competitive activities. The noble Lord said: My Lords, I beg to move the Unstarred Question standing in my name on the Order Paper. I must apologise to the House for raising this matter at this time of the evening, but I must say that I am not guilty of any crime, nor am I responsible for the lateness of the hour. The Question I am asking is of a somewhat
242
unusual type for your Lordships' House, but during the last two or three weeks Questions have been raised on kindred matters and that which I am now asking arises from the Answers which were given.
On June 28 I asked a supplementary question on a Question raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Burton of Coventry, on teenage and school athletes and their associations. The noble Earl, Lord Jellicoe, replied that the matter was being considered in the general context of the Wolfenden Committee's Report. On July 26, in reply to a further question by the noble Baroness, the noble Earl said [Official Report, Vol. 242 (No. 111), col. 1124]:
"I hope it will be possible to make a statement on this matter very soon after the House resumes after the Recess."
That gave me an indication that if I wished to raise this point, I should raise it before the House rose for the Recess. As the Recess will soon intervene, I thought that the new Minister of Education should have some idea of what was in our minds in regard to school athletics and should be informed of the conditions and difficulties under which school athletics are conducted on a national and international scale. My international reference is to the triangular sports in which England, Scotland and Wales compete. I do not want irrevocable decisions to be arrived at while we are away and then for us to be faced, when we come back, with the answer that the matter has been settled and cannot be reopened. I am anxious that whatever I have to say to-night shall find its way to the ears of the Sports Development Council, if and when such a body is appointed. I hope that my remarks will not fall on deaf ears.
It it usual for speakers in your Lordships' House to declare a personal interest. In this matter, I have a great personal interest but, I am glad to say, not a financial one. Like so many more, my position in athletic circles is honorary and unpaid. There are no great financial interests in British athletics, so far as I know. I have recently been appointed vice-president of the English Schools Athletic Association. This appointment is the more pleasing to me as I am not connected with the scholastic profession, except as comptroller of a

243
King Edward VI School in Suffolk. I am also President of the Norfolk Schools' and Women's Athletic Associations and of the Norfolk County Football Association and of the King's Lynn Football Club. It will be apparent where my sporting instincts lie.
I am active in my presidencies. I attend most county schools' athletic meetings and in recent years I have had immense satisfaction, I should like to emphasise, in attending the all-England schools annual two-day championship sports at Plymouth, Southampton, Northwich, Chesterfield and Hull. I would not have missed any one of them. I want to deal with these annual sports, but first let me say something about the formation of the Schools Athletics Association. I must be brief in all I have to say as I wish to cover several matters and I want to give a proper picture of the whole field.
The Schools' Athletics Association was formed in 1900 in and with London as the first county organisation. There was a steady expansion of county associations, and by 1925 there were thirteen in all. The first Inter-County Schools' Athletics' Championships took place at Crystal Palace in 1925, and in 1939, 29 counties had their own associations. I give these figures in order to show the build-up of the Association in which I am interested. War intervened and the next sports meeting was held at Eton in 1946. Expansion has developed rapidly since then, and in 1961 40 counties were included in membership.
At the championships sports at Hull about ten days ago 39 counties were represented covering over 1,700 competitors. On the track there were no fewer than 95 events, which covered, of course, semi-finals and finals, and there were 39 field events. The magnitude and efficiency of organising such an athletics meeting can be appreciated. Not only does this apply to actual arrangements on the sports arena, covering as it does, I believe, no fewer than 100 officials of all sorts, but it has to cover the accommodation of all the competitors and officials, together with care-free catering facilities. Practically the whole of the work involved is on an honorary basis and the greatest possible praise can be given to those teachers and
244
others who, with great enthusiasm and loyalty, give their services throughout the year, to the culminating point of championship sports. In recent years cross-country races have been held in addition to triangular sports and competitions have also taken place between county schools and schools in European countries.
May I say a few words about the actual sports? Over 1,700 of our finest school athletes, both boys and girls, between the ages of thirteen and nineteen were gathered together there in competition for the honour of their schools and counties. They came from secondary modern schools, grammar schools, private schools, technical colleges, public schools and girls' high schools. They are the pride of our nation; fit, healthy, of fine physique, keen, determined and enthusiastic: in fact, a very fine example to every teen-ager in the land—and I hope those words will go beyond the walls of your Lordships' House. Before each afternoon's events they stage a march-past in their county colours and in formation with banners aloft and they line up for the National Anthem in the arena. This is one of the finest sights of the year. I know of no better. I have seen Test Matches both here and in Australia, Cup Finals, international football matches, Trooping the Colour, military parades and a great many other outdoor ceremonials, and none can match this one. It is an Olympic Games parade in miniature; but in this case it is carried out by our own boys and girls. It has its emotional moments, and spectators and parents, looking forward or backward, are often deeply affected. Well may we all hesitate to think what the future may be for those young lives. Each year the records of the past are equalled or broken. The standards set are high. The competition, enthusiasm and ability are terrific. Only the very best in their own particular events can hope to succeed and, in fact, do succeed.
My Question raises a matter of finance. At the moment no direct contribution towards the expenses of the Association or of the sports is received from the Government. May I particularly stress that point because that is really the heart of my plea? Support is received from the various county councils towards the

245
internal expenses of equipment and athletics within their own counties; and in this I understand that my own county council is very generous and helpful, as, indeed, I expect others are also; but it may not always be so. In a sense, however, county and national school athletics are carried on almost on a shoe string and under great difficulty and financial worry. I want to deal with a few points in regard to finance.
According to my information, each national championship competitor pays a sum of about £2 to his or her own county organisation towards the cost of coach or rail transport, packed meals and competition entrance fee. This amount is handed over in part to the Schools' Sports Association. No boy or girl is barred by the parent county from competing in the sports by lack of means. This is a commendable fact, but it will thus be seen that some expenses may fall on the parents of the competitors. Arrangements as to costs may naturally vary county by county. Help towards running the championship sports is given in the following ways: by the local authority in whose area the sports are held providing the athletic equipment—and this is later used by local schools; by the use of their schools for reception and other functions at a nominal charge; by the use of schools meals service facilities at the nominal school charge for meals; sometimes by the provision locally of a permanent field event arena to meet the demands of the meeting; by the release of teachers for duties connected with the meeting.
The funds of the Association to carry on the day-to-day administrative work come from three sources: from the affiliation fee paid by county associations, which I understand is five guineas each; from the English Schools F.A., which is able to make a financial grant to all kindred schools' sports associations as a result of its Wembley international profit; and, from an annual grant from the National Union of Teachers. Here again there is no Government aid or grant towards the administrative expenses.
The expenses incurred in running the championship sports are met in the following way: from the counties themselves by the payment of one guinea per head for each competitor; from the
246
sponsorship of a well-known food and body-building manufacturer; from the gate and stand tickets' receipts; and from an appeal made locally in the area organising the meeting. The overall expenditure of a championship meeting amounts to approximately £5,000; so it will be readily seen that casual receipts such as I have mentioned need to be stretched to the uttermost to make ends meet. There is nothing left for improvements or the development of additional athletic facilities. That is where I hope the Government will come in and assist. Athletics is obviously a part of the schools curriculum and, in my view, the training of the body is equally as important as the training of the mind. For that reason I want the Government to come in and help.
I now come to another section of what I want to say. In August, 1961, the National Council for School Sports, a body which comprises representatives from the many branches of school sports, submitted detailed sectional memoranda to the Central Advisory Council for Education. The evidence thus submitted afforded an excellent guidance as to the activities of the various sections and was very valuable and comprehensive. Can the Minister say whether these submissions have reached him and been considered by the Minister? T ask that just for information, because I understand submissions were made, and it may be a matter of interest as to whether they have been considered or dealt with in any way.
It may be inopportune to anticipate what may be the Government's intention regarding the implementation of the Wolfenden Report and the setting up of a Sports Development Council, but I should like to stress the hope that if and when such a council is brought together the needs of school athletes, whatever sport they may be engaged in, will not be overlooked, and adequate representation will be granted to them. That is where we have to build our future.
In conclusion, I wish to suggest to the Government that it should be a national obligation to foster and encourage the work of training our boys and girls in athletics. I have already matched it up with training in scholastics. We are not a C.3 nation and must not become so.

247
Given facilities and encouragement, our youth can equal those of other countries. We cannot turn aside and leave the task for ever to those who are growing old in the service of youth. Some have given many years of fine honorary service. There is no surer way of establishing peace among the nations than by the encouragement of international sport among the young men and women of the world. In that moment of competitive achievement all thoughts of war, fruitless negotiations and international wrangling are forgotten. I hope the Government will come in and help.
7.43 p.m.
LORD NEWTON: My Lords, at one time I was mildly athletic, although I suspect that my prowess was not up to that of the noble Lord, Lord Wise, when he was the same age as I was. I am also the proud father of a young son who this term at school was the victor ludorum. So I am very glad that the opportunity falls to me to reply to the noble Lord's Question this evening.
He said that he has a great personal interest, although not a financial one, in school athletics, and, my Lords, I think that must have been perfectly obvious to all of us who had the good fortune to hear his speech. He spoke with some knowledge, which I have always known he has, and great enthusiasm for his subject, and I only wish that the House might have been rather fuller to enjoy his speech just as much as I did. But, as he said earlier, the hour is fairly late.
In reply to the first part of this Question on the Order Paper, I would say that of course the Government recognise that the organisation of national school athletic competitions has for some time been in the hands of people who give their services to it voluntarily, and I should like to pay my tribute to what they do; they certainly do a very good job of work indeed. These volunteers organise the competitions under the auspices of the Schools Athletics Association, about which the noble Lord spoke. As he explained, this is an entirely voluntary Association, and I understand that its affairs are largely run by schoolmasters and school mistresses who are interested in athletics. The noble Lord told us about the foundation of the Association and explained that its object is to promote athletics in schools of all
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kinds. What I think I ought to emphasise is that it is not formally connected with the Ministry of Education, although it has links with the Central Council for Physical Recreation and the Amateur Athletic Association. Analogous bodies which are similarly constituted and which also get no Government grants are the English Schools Football Association, the English Schools Rugby Union and the Schools Amateur Boxing Association. Similarly, voluntary work is done for school cricket and tennis and swimming.
The finance necessary to run school athletic competitions is provided by the "gate" at meetings, as the noble Lord said, by voluntary donations and subscriptions and, to some extent, by local educational authorities, who pay, for example, competitors' travelling expenses and other expenses. These contributions by local education authorities rank along with their other expenditure for the Government's general grant. So the Government do already "come in and help", to use the noble Lord's own words. So far as I know, the Schools Athletics Association have not sought a grant from the Ministry of Education, and the Government do not have details of their financial position, but we have had some words about it from the noble Lord this evening.
The present system, as the noble Lord explained, is one of an inter-county competition held once a year. The 1962 competition was held at Hull about ten days ago. I certainly was most impressed by the noble Lord's description of it. These competitions are between the best schoolchildren athletes—and he emphasised that—Who have survived previous eliminating rounds at school level and at district level. The winners of the events in the inter-county competition become the national champions for those events, but the honours and prizes, I understand, are regarded as going not to the individual boy and girl competitors or to their schools but to their county. So far as the Ministry of Education are aware, the national champions do not take part in international competitions of young athletes other than competitions between England, Wales and Scotland.
It is perfectly true that no direct grants from the Ministry of Education are paid to help the work of the Schools Athletics

249
Association. However, the Ministry does give indirect assistance to school athletics on an appreciable scale. There are the Government grants paid on expenditure by local education authorities on school sporting activities of various kinds. There are no figures, local or national, of the exact amount spent specifically on facilities for athletics, but the total is considerable. The number of athletic tracks, grass or cinder, is increasing, and for many years the Ministry of Education's guidance to local educational authorities on layout of school sports grounds has recommended provision of grass running tracks and other facilities for athletics. School athletics also benefit substantially, although indirectly, from the grants which the Ministry makes for training coaches and instructors to the Amateur Athletic Association and also to the Central Council for Physical Recreation.
The position, therefore, is this. Financial assistance from the Government is available indirectly towards the present competitions held by the Schools Athletic Association, since local government authorities can and do help with expenses. Local education authorities have powers which they can, and do, exercise to help competitors from their areas, and to them is given the duty and the power to provide primary and secondary education in all its aspects, the physical as well as the mental. I certainly agree with the noble Lord that both are important. For this reason I cannot encourage the noble Lord to hope that Her Majesty's Government could give direct financial assistance.
The noble Lord made some observations about what I might perhaps call the nation's obligation to youth, and I should like to say just a word or two about public expenditure generally on sports and physical recreation. Public capital expenditure on facilities for sport and physical recreation, including youth clubs, community centres and village halls used partly for sport and physical recreation was £16·5 million in 1960–61 and £20·1 million in 1961–62. Expenditure in 1962–63 will be £26·4 million, of which about £11 million will be in connection with the school building programme—that is to say, for playing fields and other sports facilities for schools. The Government's contribution to this
250
expenditure is, of course, mainly through general grant. The value of new starts to be sanctioned for 1962–63 was to have totalled £26·5 million, including, again, £11 million for the school building programme. However, just after the Budget the Chancellor of the Exchequer announced that this total would be increased to £27·5 million. The Government also increased their grants this year to national voluntary organisations for schemes for coaching, and to help in the administration of sport (though not to defray the cost of competitions), and for direct grant to local voluntary capital projects, from £470,000 to £670,000.
Mention has been made of the National Council for School Sports, a voluntary body which seeks to promote in schools various national games and sports. It submitted evidence in October, 1961, to my right honourable friend's Central Advisory Council which is currently investigating the education of the average and below-average children in secondary schools. This evidence deals with the value of sport to such children and makes a number of suggestions by which its value can be increased. I have no doubt at all that its evidence is being most carefully considered, but as the Central Advisory Council has not yet submitted its Report to my right honourable friend I cannot say anything more about that this evening.
Finally, the noble Lord, Lord Wise, made some suggestions about the composition and activities of a Sports Development Council, if one is established. As the House knows, the Government hope to make a statement on this soon after the House resumes after the Summer Recess. I think your Lordships will understand that this evening I cannot anticipate that statement.
7.54 p.m.
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, by the Rules of this House on an Unstarred Question, my noble friend is not in a position to say anything on the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Newton, and I know that again he cannot reply to anything that I say. But as he mentioned that he was the proud parent of a victor ludorum I know that we have his sympathy in this matter, and I hope, therefore, that I may put to him one or two points on this subject which perhaps

251
he will convey to his right honourable friend.
I join with him in paying tribute to my noble friend Lord Wise for the most comprehensive and, at times, moving way in which he presented his case. I, too, have some idea of the extraordinary effect of nearly 2,000 fine fit young people assembled in that way. The noble Lord, Lord Newton said that the Schools Athletic Association have not yet made an application to the Ministry of Education for grant. I understand from my noble friend that this is a disability which is likely to be speedily removed; and I hope that, when it is received, the noble Lord will see that the request receives sympathetic treatment. There was virtually no difference at all between the account given by my noble friend Lord Wise and that of Lord Newton in the way these events are financed and paid for. I do not think there is any doubt at all—and no one wishes to conceal it—that the amount of money which comes from central funds and eventually finds its way into schools sports is quite substantial. But the whole crux of the matter is that there are certain specific things which cannot be provided for by the county, or even by collections of counties; and the question of a grant for the annual meeting is therefore of importance, although the actual amount of the grant in relation to the total expenditure on school athletics, will not be large.
But this is the kind of difficulty that many voluntary bodies come up against. They can get grants from various sources for the work in the field; they can have facilities loaned to them, and equipment provided. But when it comes to administrative expenses for a central administration or a national event, as it were, they cannot obtain any grant from the same source, and apart from voluntary contributions or fund-raising of various kinds from voluntary sources, their only hope is from the Government. I hope that that point will not be evaded.
This applies equally to the Schools International, to which my noble friend
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referred. It is no use arguing that a competition in athletics between England and Wales and Scotland is not international: it is an international, and it is so regarded. But again we get the point that the athletics bodies associated with each county cannot themselves pro-vide funds, or at least significant funds, directly for the running of the Schools International. I am sure the noble Lord will appreciate that the administrative costs are not large, because almost everyone gives his services free. But there is the fact that the work of administration in organising these events is so large that often expenses of various kinds do crop up; and unless some central grant is given, then the cost has to be borne by devoted people, who are not really well off. It seems to me that it is not fair that they should provide this shoestring without help. We must not be blind to the fact that in athletics up to the age of nineteen some are still called juniors, but immediately afterwards they come and give senior performances which are greatly to the credit and prestige of this country. It seems to me that for the comparatively minute sums which are necessary, and for which my noble friend is asking, we are entitled to a more favourable Answer than we have received to-night. For that reason I hope that when the application is made by the Schools Athletic Association, it will be given a favourable reception.

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