Sitting of 16 July 1962

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]

PRIVATE BUSINESS
RUNCORN DISTRICT WATER BOARD BILL [Lords]
Read the Third time and passed, without Amendment.
MANCHESTER CORPORATION BILL [Lords]
As amended, considered; to be read the Third time.

PETITION

  Uganda (Bugangazzi and Buyaga)
  Miss Vickers: I beg to present a humble Petition on behalf of the two counties of Bugangazzi and Buyaga.
  These counties were once part of the Kingdom of Bunyoro, until 1900, when they were taken over by the Government of Her Majesty Queen Victoria and placed under the control of the Govern-
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  ment of Uganda. This was endorsed by the agreement of 1900. This Petition is called for because there was a report called the Molson Report, following a special Commission, which made specific recommendations which were acceptable to the Bunyoro, namely, that two of the so-called lost counties of Buyaga and Bugangazzi should be returned to Bunyoro.
  Prior to the granting of independence on 8th July, 1962, the Molson Report was greeted with cheers, drumming and great feasting in the counties of Buyaga and Bugangazzi when it was published on 3rd May, 1962. This Petition is signed by 37 people from the two territories. This may not seem many, but when one realises the short time they had to prepare it and the distance they had to travel, I think it shows that they are very anxious about their present position.
  The previous Secretary of State's announcement on 27th June, 1962, which is unacceptable to them, advises the Government of Uganda to hold a referendum in these counties, and this is what the Petition is against. The recommendation of the Petition is that the Molson Report be implemented before British protection is withdrawn from Uganda.
  And your petitioners, as in duty bound, will ever pray, etc.
  To lie upon the Table.

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  PENSIONS AND NATIONAL INSURANCE

    Retirement Pensions
    Mr. P. Browneasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance if he will give the value of the basic retirement pension in real terms at 31st May, 1962, as compared to the same dates in 1960 and 1961.
    The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Pensions and National Insurance (Mrs. Thatcher): The standard rate of retirement pension at 31st May, 1962, was 57s. 6d.; the equivalent value in real terms at that date of the standard rate payable at 31st May, 1960, was 54s. 5d., and the corresponding figure for 31st May, 1961, was 60s. 9d.
    Mr. Browne: I find myself in some difficulty today in framing my supplementary question. Without wishing to comment on the temporary nature of Ministerial appointments, may I ask my hon. Friend if she will be sure to leave a note for the future Minister of Pensions and National Insurance drawing his or her attention to the debate we had last Friday dealing with the plight of pensioners generally? Can my hon. Friend say, if the last Minister of Pensions and National Insurance was right in saying that the National Assistance rate was a holding operation, there is justification for doing the same for pensioners? Can she give me some idea what the present pension would stand at if it had been tied to the cost of living during the past two years?
    Mrs. Thatcher: I will tell my right hon. Friend, the Minister when I have one, what my hon. Friend has said in the first part of his supplementary question. Had the retirement pension kept pace with the rising cost of living, the 26s. single person rate introduced in October, 1946, would be 47s. 11d. and the married couple rate of 42s. would be 77s. 4d.
    Mr. W. Hamiltonasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance
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    what was the percentage increase in the basic retirement pension in each of the two periods June, 1945 to June, 1951, and June, 1951 to June, 1962; and to what extent the purchasing power of the pension was diminished in each period by rising prices.
    Mrs. Thatcher: There was no basic retirement pension in June, 1945. Such a pension was not introduced until October, 1946, under the National Insurance Act of that year. Between that date and June 1951, retail prices rose by about 25 per cent. There was no increase in rates of benefit. The purchasing power of the pension was consequently reduced by 20 per cent. Between June, 1951, and June, 1962, the percentage increase in the rate of the basic retirement pension was 120. As the increase in retail prices over that period was 48 per cent., the purchasing power of the pension increased by 49 per cent.
    Mr. Hamilton: Is the hon. Lady aware that when the Labour Government came into power the pension, whatever it might have been called, was 10s.? It subsequently went up by very nearly 200 per cent. under the Labour Government. Is the hon. Lady further aware that, whatever might be the records of the respective Governments, the pension has been considerably eroded under both Governments and that therefore, there is an urgent case for reviewing the situation, particularly now, in view of the impending retirement of the Prime Minister himself?
    Mrs. Thatcher: I am aware that there was a 10s. old-age pension, which was on quite a different basis in 1945. I am also aware that the Coalition Government, in which all parties participated, agreed that the pension should be increased to 20s. for a single person and 35s. for a married couple. It was subsequently increased by the Labour Government to 26s. and 42s. and was not further increased until the erosion had amounted to 22·4 per cent
    Mr. Hamilton: Does the hon. Lady recollect that one of her right hon. Friends at that time accused the Labour Government, when they put the pension up to 26s., of acting too hastily?
    Mrs. Thatcher: I do not remember because I was not here. I wish I had been.
    Sir Richard Pilkingtonasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what is his estimate of the number of people who were over 65 years of age when the present contributory pensions scheme was introduced in 1948 and so did not qualify for a pension; and how many there are today.
    Mrs. Thatcher: We have no means of knowing how many people over age 65 in July, 1948, were prevented from qualifying for retirement pensions solely by that fact, since many of them would at some time have had an earlier opportunity of becoming insured as voluntary contributors under the Contributory Old Age Pensions scheme. We estimate that there are about 330,000 men and women living today who were over age 65 in July, 1948, and who axe not eligible for National Insurance retirement pensions.
    Sir Richard Pilkington: While paying tribute to the excellent record of my hon. Friend's ex-chief, may I ask her to convey to her new chief the desirability of helping this small but very important part of the nation?
    Mrs. Thatcher: I will gladly join my hon. Friend in paying tribute to an outstanding Minister who was superlative even by the best of standards. I should have thought that Members of all parties would have paid tribute to the outstanding Parliamentary skill of my right hon. Friend. I will, of course, convey the second part of my hon. Friend's supplementary question to my next chief, but I would point out that there is very little point in saying, on the one hand, that to get the pension as of right one should contribute to it and, on the other hand, "Never mind whether you contributed or not, you will get it in any case." That seems quite contradictory.
    Mr. Fernyhough: Can the hon. Lady tell us how many of the 330,000 are receiving National Assistance because they are not gettting a pension?
    Mrs. Thatcher: No, I cannot tell the hon. Member that. If he will put down a Question I will do my best to get the information, but many of these people have private resources or occupational pensions.

    Unemployment Benefit (Fishermen and Merchant Seamen)
    Mr. Prenticeasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance whether he will introduce regulations to enable unemployment benefit to be paid to fishermen and other seamen while taking approved pilots' courses, on the same terms as members of the Merchant Navy who take other forms of training.
    Mrs. Thatcher: No, Sir.
    Mr. Prentice: While the unemployment benefit arrangements for merchant seamen may be a little unusual, can the hon. Lady suggest any reason why there should be this distinction between those who are members of the Merchant Navy and those who take pilots' courses? Ought not this to be looked into again to remove the sense of unfairness which exists?
    Mrs. Thatcher: As the hon. Gentleman is aware, the arrangements made for members of the Merchant Navy were an anomaly and, as such, I do not think they should be extended. They amount, in fact, to using unemployment insurance to subsidise the training of people in the Merchant Navy.

    Graduated Pensions Scheme
    Mr. Houghtonasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance how many employees have now contracted out of the graduated pensions scheme; how many applications are still under consideration; and whether that from the building industry is one of them.
    Mrs. Thatcher: About 4,457,905 employees are now contracted out of the graduated pension scheme; 32 applications are under consideration. No general application from the building industry is among them.
    Mr. Houghtonasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what was the total amount of graduated contributions received during the first year of the operation of the scheme; and how much was paid out in graduated scheme benefits.
    Mrs. Thatcher: Final figures are not yet available, but it is estimated that such contributions amounted to about £148 million. Benefit payments will, of course, have been very small.

    National Insurance and National Assistance
    Mr. Prenticeasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance whether the current Government studies designed to lead to a long-term incomes policy include consideration of National Insurance and National Assistance rates, and the need to relate these payments to the general level of wages and salaries.
    Mrs. Thatcher: The rates of these benefits are kept under constant review and, as the hon. Member knows, the House approved on Friday draft Regulations increasing the scales of National Assistance. The matters referred to in the last part of the Question are, as has often been explained, among those which are taken into account
    Mr. Prentice: In case these talks on a long-term incomes policy lead somewhere, is it not important that the next Minister, whoever he or she may be, should be represented at the talks so as to stick up for the pensioners? In doing so, will the Government bear in mind the long-standing Labour Party proposal for an annual review of rates of all National Insurance benefits so that they can keep pace with increases in the cost of living or with the level of incomes?
    Mrs. Thatcher: The pension has more than kept pace with the rising cost of living. It seems to me that part of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question is concerned with my former Minister and part with the next Minister.
    Mr. Ross: Is the hon. Lady aware that since the last announcement of increases the pension for married couples has not kept pace with the rising cost of living but has lost 6s. 9d.?
    Mrs. Thatcher: I am aware that it is nothing like the amount lost in percentage terms between 1946 and 1951.

    Pneumoconiosis
    Mr. Dalyellasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what provision is made under his regulations for those suffering from complicated diseases of the chest as a result of work
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    in coalmines but who are not registered as pneumoconiotics.
    The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Pensions and National Insurance (Mr. Richard Sharples): In the case of people suffering from a disease not scheduled under the Industrial Injuries Act and which has the effect of making them unfit for work, the provision is by way of sickness benefit.
    Mr. Dalyell: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that many miners are extremely unhappy about the partiality of the boards and would prefer the X-ray plates to be sent to some impartial body such as the South-Wales Pneumoconiotic Unit?
    Mr. Sharples: I think that raises a somewhat wider question than that on the Order Paper.
    Miss Herbison: Surely the Parliamentary Secretary must be aware of the great dissatisfaction amongst miners, steel workers and others who suffer from pneumoconiosis at the decisions of these boards compared with the decisions of specialists in hospitals and infirmaries throughout the country? Surely the Minister must be ready to try to do something to alleviate the misery of those who are told that they are not suffering from pneumoconiosis?
    Mr. Sharples: The determination of entitlement is made under the Industrial Injuries Act and the Minister has no influence over the decisions of the boards.
    Mr. Wainwright: Does the hon. Gentleman realise that many on this side of the House who have been interested in these cases because of our experience as branch secretaries fully realise that many men suffering from emphysema, bronchitis and other chest diseases ought to have better medical examinations than they have at present? Could he look into this question, or ask his future chief to look into it, and make certain that these unfortunate miners receive fair judgment and fair play?
    Mr. Sharples: This matter was considered in great detail by the Beney Committee, and also by the Industrial Injuries Advisory Council.

    Earnings Rule
    Mr. Haymanasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance if he will now increase the amount that may be earned, without deduction from pension, by retirement and widow pensioners.
    Mrs. Thatcher: No, Sir.
    Mr. Hayman: May I ask the hon. Lady to inform her next chief that the cost of living has risen by 9·5 per cent. since the amounts were last altered and to request him to bring the allowance up to date and, as far as widows are concerned, to abolish them altogether? [Laughter.]
    Mr. Thorpe: Not even the Prime Minister could do that.
    Mrs. Thatcher: The present Government have increased the earnings limit by 30s. for retirement pensioners and 40s. for widowed mothers. There is a Question later on the Order Paper relating to the earnings scale and the cost of living.
    Mr. Wainwrightasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance if he will estimate the cost to the National Insurance Fund of the abolition of the earnings rule as applied to retirement pensioners.
    Mrs. Thatcher: About £100 million a year immediately.
    Mr. Wainwright: Does the hon. Lady realise that this takes a tremendous amount of money from retired persons? Does the hon. Lady not think that consideration must be given to increasing the amount allowed under the earnings rule so that not so much is taken from these people and they can keep what they earn?
    Mrs. Thatcher: I will consider later in conjunction with others what the hon. Member has said, but I could not possibly undertake to put forward on my own account any proposal for the complete abolition of the retirement rule. That would be a most unwise step to take. It would prevent many people from earning increments on their basic pensions and, at a time when we have an increasing number of old folk, would
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    result in reducing the age of retirement and the age at which a person would draw a pension.
    Mr. Nabarro: Is my hon. Friend aware that Professor Cairncross in a Minority Report to the Phillips Committee advocated exactly what the hon. Member for Dearne Valley (Mr. Wainwright) has asked, namely, the total abolition of the earnings rule on economic grounds? Is she aware that, as a reward for his perspicacity, Professor Cairncross now holds the position of principal economic adviser to the Treasury? Would my hon. Friend undertake to consult Professor Cairncross again about this important matter of the abolition of the earnings rule?
    Mrs. Thatcher: I think that my hon. Friend is mistaken about the Department which this afternoon is answering Questions. My main worry is that the hon. Mamber for Dearne Valley (Mr. Wainwright), who asked the initial Question might become the economic adviser to the Treasury.
    Mr. Rossasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what change would require to be made in the earnings rule scale to make up for the depreciation in the value of the £ sterling since March 1960.
    Mrs. Thatcher: I assume that what the hon. Member has in mind is the figure for the real value of earnings which can be obtained without any reduction in pension resulting. On this assumption the figures are 6s. 8d. in respect of retirement and widow's pension, and 9s. 6d. for widowed mother's allowance.
    Mr. Ross: When will the Government do something about it?
    Mrs. Thatcher: If the Government were to take the hon. Member's yardstick, which is the Index of Retail Prices, the earnings limit at the moment for retirement pensioners would be only 57s. against 70s., and for widowed mothers 86s. against 100s.
    Mr. Ross: That is quite unreal. The Government made a promise in March, 1960, when they raised the limit, but by erosion as a result of the cost of living these people are now 6s. 8d. and 9s. 6d.

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    worse off. When will the Government make up these amounts and keep their promise?
    Mrs. Thatcher: By the hon. Member's own yardstick they are very much better off than they would have been under a Labour Government.

    National Insurance
    Mr. Rossasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what is the aggregate weekly disbursement to all recipients of National Insurance benefits for the latest available date; and what would require to be added to that sum to give it the real value that that sum had on the day when the last announcement of National Insurance benefit increases was made.
    Mrs. Thatcher: About £21½ million and £1½ million.
    Mr. Ross: Does the hon. Lady agree that this gives an idea of the extent of the robbery of the poor as a result of the Government's failure to keep down the cost of living? Will she invite at least one Minister whom we know will be in his place for at least a week, namely, the Prime Minister, to attend to this matter?
    Mrs. Thatcher: As the hon. Member knows, retirement pensions are paid to all people who have contributed, regardless of their means, and therefore it is not fair to say that this is robbing the poor. If we were to make good the 6 per cent. decrease since April, 1961, it would mean immediately the expenditure of an extra £13 million by the Exchequer and an extra 6d. a side on the weekly stamp.
    Mr. Ross: I am not interested in April, 1961. I am interested in the real value on the date when the announcement was made and the fact that on that basis the extent of the present suffering is even greater and the figures should be even higher.
    Mr. Thatcher: And therefore the contribution which the ordinary taxpayer and contributor would have to make. There would be, for the hon. Member's date, an extra £16 million to be paid by the Exchequer to the Fund and there would be an extra 8d. a side on the weekly stamp.

    Death Grant
    Mr. Millanasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what would require to be added to the adult death grant to allow for the decrease in the purchasing power of the £ sterling since the announcement of the last increase of that benefit.
    Mrs. Thatcher: About £2 17s. 6d.
    Mr. Millan: Whatever the Government may claim about other benefits, may I ask the hon. Lady whether this is not one case where it is obvious that the grant has not kept pace with the rising costs? The original death grant was £20 and the present grant is £25. Would the Ministry look at the whole question of death grants, including the question of those disqualified from receiving it?
    Mrs. Thatcher: The death grant has been raised only once to my knowledge since it was introduced in 1948. The hon. Member has taken the cost-of-living index, which is a curious one to take when applied to the death grant. I will, of course, communicate what he has said to the appropriate quarters.

    Pensions and Earnings
    Mr. Millanasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance if he will state as a percentage the relationship of the basic pension to the average weekly male earnings in 1946, 1955 and the latest available date in 1962, respectively.
    Mrs. Thatcher: For a single person, 21½, 18½ and 18½ and for a married couple, 35, 30 and 30. The latest available figures are for October, 1961.
    Mr. Millan: Do these figures not demonstrate that the percentages are lower than they were in 1946 and that the claims made by the Government that pensioners would share in rising standards have not been substantiated? Is not this the real test that we should apply to National Insurance benefits?
    Mrs. Thatcher: The actual erosion from 21½ per cent. to 18 per cent. for a single person and from 35 per cent. to 30 per cent. for the married couple took place during the years 1946 to 1951, but since then the relationship has remained constant.

    Widowed Mothers
    Mrs. Braddockasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what would require to be added to the current pension and allowances of a widowed mother with two children to make up for the decreased purchasing power of the £ sterling since the last increase of insurance benefits was announced.
    Mrs. Thatcher: About 7s. l1d.
    Mrs. Braddock: Will the hon. Lady look at the position of widowed mothers? Is she aware that they are often in great difficulty? They do not understand percentages. All they understand is the cost of living—the cost of things they have to buy. They are in difficulty unless they are able to obtain employment, which often leaves the family without a responsible person to look after it. Is it not time that something was done for them?
    Mrs. Thatcher: I can understand the hon. Lady's special sympathy for widowed mothers. As she is aware, the Government, under the National Insurance Scheme, have given special preference to the widowed mother to the extent that the widow with one child has benefited by 44 per cent., the widow with two children by 58 per cent. and the widow with three children by 71 per cent. more, in real terms, over 1951.

  COAL

    Smokeless Fuels
    Mr. Frank Allaunasked the Minister of Power if he will inquire into the inadequacies of some of the smokeless fuels, as delivered, which are jeopardising the implementation of the Clean Air Act.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Power (Mr. John Peyton): The Domesitic Coal Consumers' Council, set up under the Coal Industry Nationalisation Act, 1946, is examining the recent report of the Consumer Advisory Council which criticised the quality of some smokeless fuels as delivered. It will no doubt advise me of any action it considers necessary.
    Mr. Allaun: Can the Parliamentary Secretary indicate that we are likely to
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    have some action following this inquiry into the Council's Report, which showed that some housewives are paying up to £4 per ton for water in their fuel? Is he aware that this arises mainly through fuel being left uncovered in transit or in merchants' yards and that it could be prevented by the Government imposing a maximum water content standard?
    Mr. Peyton: I hope that the hon. Member does not under-value the Domestic Coal Consumers' Council, which I am sure will go into this matter very carefully. The distributive trade has taken the matter very seriously. As evidence of that, there was the introduction of the approved coal merchants' scheme on 1st May this year. I hope that this will be successful.
    Mrs. Slater: Is it not about time that the Government themselves did something about it? The consumer is being almost held to ransom in the smokeless fuel areas because of the Clean Air Act. Is it not unjust that the Government should leave it to the good will or otherwise of certain individuals and leave the housewife stranded and having to pay in some cases excessive sums for inferior quality smokeless fuels?
    Mr. Peyton: It is not a matter of leaving it to anyone's good will. I echo the comment made in the Report itself, that the customer must do something to protect himself. People should complain to their merchants. Too often bad goods —I am not referring to this trade alone —are accepted without complaint. A great deal is up to the public.

    Pit Closures, County Durham
    Mr. Shinwellasked the Minister of Power how many mineworkers have become redundant in consequence of pit closures in County Durham in the last five years.
    The Minister of Power (Mr. Richard Wood): I have asked the Chairman of the National Coal Board to give the right hon. Gentleman the precise figures. The Board has been most successful in limiting the effects of closures and the percentage of unemployment in coal mining in Dunham is very low.
    Mr. Shinwell: I have asked the right hon. Gentleman the Question. Why does he refer me to the Coal Board? If

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    the Coal Board writes to me, may I impart the information to hon. Members, or have I to inform the right hon. Gentleman so that he may undertake the task? Why does not the Minister answer the Question now, or, perhaps, answer it on some other occasion if I put down another Question?
    Mr. Wood: I should have thought that if anyone in the House knew the answer to that Question it was the right hon. Member himself, because he set up the National Coal Board. It is surely right for me to ask the Chairman of the National Coal Board to give to the right hon. Gentleman information which relates to the day-to-day management of the Coal Board.
    Mr. Shinwell: This raises the general issue, though I am not quite sure that this is the appropriate moment to raise it. The right hon. Gentleman has implied that we are not entitled to ask questions about redundancies in the hope of getting an answer from him and that I must ask the National Coal Board. Is that correct?
    Mr. Wood: I do my best, as I have always tried to do, to provide information for hon. Members. On particular questions of this kind, when the right hon. Gentleman asks how many mine-workers have become redundant during the last five years, I should have thought that this was a wholly suitable matter to be referred to the Chairman of the National Coal Board.
    Mr. T. Fraser: How does the Minister manage to advise his colleagues in the Government Who may take steps to provide alternative employment in areas where pits are closing if he himself does not know how many men have become redundant?
    Mr. Wood: Obviously, information is in my hands about redundancies caused by actual pit closures, but there is a great deal of reorganisation going on in the industry, as the right hon. Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell) knows, which does not involve actual pit closures. I should give the right hon. Gentleman misleading information if I gave him details of redundancies in consequence merely of pit closures in County Durham during the past five years.

    Opencast Mining
    Mr. Masonasked the Minister of Power if he has now given further consideration to the annual outputs of opencast coal mining; and to what extent he now proposes to cut back output except for specialised coals which are in short supply.
    Mr. Peyton: As indicated in my right hon. Friend's reply to the hon. Member on 21st May, the National Coal Board now expects that opencast coal production in 1963 will be substantially below the reduced level of this year.
    Mr. Mason: What does the hon. Gentleman mean by "substantially … reduced"? Can he give us some idea of the extent to which we can expect to see opencast coal mining output run down during the next five years?
    Mr. Peyton: I think that my right hon. Friend has already told the House that output this year is expected to be about 1 million tons below the 1961 level of 8½ million tons. It would be wrong for me to give any forecast of what might happen in future. As the hon. Gentleman knows, opencast production is a very convenient and easy way of balancing supply and demand, not only in total quantities, but also of particular types of coal in particular areas.
    Mr. Mason: Is not the hon. Gentleman aware that added urgency has been given to this matter by the recent announcement of the Minister about pit closures? Mineworkers feel very dissatisfied with the Minister of Power in that opencast coal mining has always been recognised as a cushion between production and demand. Rather than see pits closing so quickly, we would prefer to see opencast coal mining cut down first.
    Mr. Peyton: I am informed by the Coal Board that it expects that applications for new sites to be worked before the end of next year will be limited to those which contain scarce coal or to which other very special circumstances apply.
    Mr. Masonasked the Minister of Power how many authorisations have

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    now been sought by the Opencast Executive of the National Coal Board to work new opencast sites in Yorkshire; and how many have been granted.
    Mr. Peyton: None, Sir.
    Mr. Mason: I am very relieved to hear that reply. I hope that the hon. Gentleman has taken note of the mounting opposition in Yorkshire from mine-workers, local authorities, various— [HON. MEMBERS: "Question."] Is not the hon. Gentleman aware that there is mounting opposition in Yorkshire from the mineworkers, local authorities and from the Council for the Preservation of Rural England about this matter? I hope that he will consider this opposition before authorising any more workings in Yorkshire.
    Mr. Peyton: I note what the hon. Gentleman has said.
    Mr. Wainwrightasked the Minister of Power if he will now give the date when the restoration of the Wath-upon-Dearne Newhill opencast coal mining site will be fully completed.
    Mr. Peyton: The site will be restored to full agricultural use by 1968 at the latest.
    Mr. Wainwright: Will the Parliamentary Secretary say when it will be restored normally?
    Mr. Peyton: Contractual restoration should be complete by the end of next year. As the hon. Member knows, coaling will end very soon.

    Industrial Coals (Prices)
    Mr. Lawsonasked the Minister of Power what fresh proposals have been made to him by the Chairman of the National Coal Board for the abandonment of the differential pricing policy for industrial coals introduced earlier this year.
    Mr. Wood: None, Sir.
    Mr. Lawson: Is not the Minister aware that his policy appears to be in direct cowflict with that of his right hon. Friends the President of the Board of Trade, the Minister of Labour and— might I say—the new Secretary of State for Scotland, who are all the time urging new industry to come to Scotland
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    while the right hon. Gentleman, as Minister of Power, acting with the Chairman of the Coal Board, is doing his best to make coal more expensive in Scotland than in any other coalfield. Is not this an absurd conflict of policy?
    Mr. Wood: I did my best in an Adjournment debate at the beginning of last month to explain to the hon. Member that the increase in industrial costs in Scotland would not be very considerable. When the hon. Member refers to this as my policy or suggests that it is a new policy, I would point out that it dates from the time of the National Coal Board's Annual Report for 1948 and the Plan for Coal, 1950, in which the Board specifically suggested that prices in each market should be related to the costs of producing the coal there.
    Mr. Lawson: The Minister says that it does not seem to add much to the cost of production in Scotland. Is he aware that the steel industry reckons that it will cost nearly £1 million extra for the same quantity of steel and that the electricity authorities consider that it will cost them more than £1 million extra for the generation of electricity? Is not this a very big factor in costs?
    Mr. Wood: It is also a fact that without these increases the coal industry would be quite incapable of meeting the considerable losses which it has been making in Scotland ever since nationalisation.
    Mr. T. Fraser: Is the Minister aware that he is talking nonsense, that the Scottish Divisional Coal Board made a profit for several years after nationalisation and that it was only after the Tories took office in 1951 that the Scottish Divisional Coal Board began to make losses?
    Mr. Wood: The hon. Member will not deny that compared with the total deficit of the Coal Board of £93 million, £128 million has been lost in the Scottish Division.
    An Hon. Member: Under the Tories.
    Sir C. Osborne: Subsidised by the English taxpayer.

    Scotland
    Mr. Lawsonasked the Minister of Power what proposals he has made to the National Coal Board for the reduction of outstanding capital debt in the Scottish coalfield by such amounts as were spent on major development projects which have been abandoned.
    Mr. Wood: None, Sir. The Board tells me that exceptional capital losses, such as those sustained at Rothes and Glenochil, are not carried by any one division. They are largely met as a charge to the industry's central obsolescence fund.
    Mr. Lawson: Is it not the case that the Minister has just told us that £128 million has been lost in the Scottish coalfield? Is it not right to ask the Minister whether there have not been special circumstances in Scotland? For example, the kind of policy imposed upon the Coal Board by the Government and the kind of managerial policies which have been followed in Scotland have been responsible for these heavy losses. Would not any other business write off losses such as this?
    Mr. Wood: It is to attend to any special circumstances that may exist in Scotland that, as the hon. Member will have seen, the Chairman of the National Coal Board recently announced that the Scottish interest charges would be carried by the industry as a whole. Any question of capital reconstruction would be proper to the whole reappraisal and future of the coal industry which, as I have announced several times, I have carried out with the Chairman of the National Coal Board.
    Mr. Lawson: Is it not the case that the main remedy which is being followed in Scotland is to reduce the Scottish coalfield by about one-third? Is it not the case that the Coal Board in Scotland, which formerly supplied Ireland, is not now supplying Ireland? Has not a policy been followed that denies to Scotland markets which she formerly enjoyed?
    Mr. Wood: If there is a case for some reconstruction of capital in Scotland, no doubt the Coal Board will discuss it with me.

  MINISTRY OF POWER

    Underground Transmission Lines
    Mr. Ridleyasked the Minister of Power if he will publish a White Paper on the scientific and financial implications of putting power lines underground.
    Mr. Wood: Information has already been published on this subject and I do not think a White Paper is necessary. I am putting in the Library of the House relevant publications and papers, about which I will write to my hon. Friend.
    Mr. Ridley: Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is an ever-growing volume of apprehension in the country about the multiplicity of power lines now being put up, and does he realise that it would be a help if we could have a complete and up-to-date picture of the present state of scientific advance and know the financial gap which exists between underground and overhead wires? It would be most helpful if my right hon. Friend could give more information.
    Mr. Wood: I quite appreciate the apprehension to which my hon. Friend refers, but I ask him to study the information which I am putting at the disposal of the House in the Library. Perhaps he will ask me, if he requires any further information after he has read that.

    Nuclear Power Stations
    Mr. Ridleyasked the Minister of Power when the first commercial size advanced gas-cooled reactor power station will be ordered.
    Mr. Wood: The Central Electricity Generating Board has not yet decided whether to order a power station with an advanced gas-cooled reactor.
    Mr. Ridley: I am obliged to the Minister for that Answer, but will he take care that no large programme of nuclear power station building is undertaken which will not result in electricity being produced at least as cheaply as by conventional means and not waste any of the taxpayer's capital in this way between now and the first economic station?
    Mr. Wood: That is obviously very important, but it is important also that we should keep abreast of nuclear power developments. As my hon. Friend will have noticed, the capital costs of nuclear generation are decreasing very considerably.
    Mr. Nabarroasked the Minister of Power (1) having regard to Hunterston financial experiences, what revised estimates he has now made of the cost per unit of nuclear generated electricity in England and Wales, compared with the cost per unit generated by conventional methods; and
    (2) having regard to financial implications of capital costs at Hunterston, whether he will state his revised estimates of capital costs, respectively, for Berkeley, Bradwell, and Sizewell.
    Mr. Wood: The figures I gave in my replies to my hon. Friend the Member for Dorset, West (Mr. Wingfield Digby) on 19th February still stand.
    Mr. Nabarro: Is it not a fact that since 19th February the House has been somewhat alarmed by the sensational increase in capital costs for the construction of the nuclear power station at Hunterston? Will not the same factors which operated in those cost increases apply to the three English nuclear stations which I have named? If that hypothesis is correct, as I believe it to be, is it not a fact that within a measure-able space of time these large increases in capital costs of nuclear stations will be reflected in an increase in the cost of electricity per unit generated?
    Mr. Wood: I appreciate the penetrating nature of my hon. Friend's supplementary question. I think that the answer to it is that the bulk supply tariff of the Generating Board to which retail tariffs are related takes into account the Board's costs as they arise. Therefore, I think that my hon. Friend can be assured that the electricity tariffs already reflect the increased costs of the nuclear power stations compared with the estimates which were originally made.
    Mr. Ridley: If one of my hon. Friend's considerations is the same as that of Sir Christopher Hinton, namely, to keep the assembled skill and talent in the consortia together for building these uneconomic power stations, would
    22
    it not be cheaper to provide some form of subsidy for the companies to keep their staffs together rather than build a lot of uneconomic stations?
    Mr. Wood: I think that the Generating Board's obligations in this matter are dictated by the contracts which they have made with the consortia. If the consortia have any complaints to make about the framework of the contracts which they have reached with the Generating Board, then naturally the Board would be very ready to entertain them.
    Mr. Nabarro: Does my right hon. Friend's earlier reply to me infer, as it seems to infer, that the increased capital cost of the nuclear power stations as completed is being offset or equated to reduced capital costs of the conventional stations? If that is not correct, then it follows that the cost per unit of electricity must rise. Can my right hon. Friend respond to that?
    Mr. Wood: I will do my best to do so. I tried to explain to my hon. Friend that the bulk supply tariff of the Board depends on the costs, not only of the nuclear stations, but of the conventional stations. If there are compensating decreases in the costs of the conventional stations, they will be reflected in the ultimate bulk supply tariff. My main point is that the bulk supply tariff is adjusted as the differences in the costs of these two kinds of stations become apparent.
    Mr. Warbey: Is not the output of the nuclear power stations to which the hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro) refers likely to be greater than the original estimates? Can the Minister say whether the cost per kilowatt of output capacity has increased beyond the original estimates?
    Mr. Wood: Is the hon. Gentleman referring to the unit cost or the capital cost per kilowatt?
    Mr. Warbey: The capital cost.
    Mr. Wood: That has decreased and is decreasing very considerably. I told my hon. Friend the Member for Dorset, West (Mr. Wingfield Digby) that the present capital cost is about £165. The capital cost in three or four years' time will be about £100.
    Sir C. Osborne: Is my right hon. Friend satisfied that there is a proper and adequate check on these rising costs? Who watches the increases? Is there anyone to say "No" to the increased prices put before the authorities?
    Mr. Wood: Part of the increased cost is due to changes in design. Obviously, spread over a period of years, there are bound to be changes in design worth incorporating in the newer stations. Part of the increased cost is due to the increased costs of labour and materials and these are taken into consideration by the Generating Board in the terms of the contract which it makes with the consortia.

    Underground Gas Storage
    Mr. A. Robertsasked the Minister of Power what recent general directions he has given to the Gas Council concerning the underground storage of gas.
    Mr. Wood: None, Sir.
    Mr. Roberts: May we have the Minister's assurance that, before any gas storage takes place in the north of England, we shall take advantage of the scheme which was submitted to store gas under the City of Winchester?
    Mr. Wood: I shall take into consideration what the hon. Gentleman has said. I hope to make an announcement on this subject quite soon.

    Generation Costs
    Mr. A. Robertsasked the Minister of Power what is the average unit cost of producing electricity at conventional power stations; and how this compares with the latest estimated cost of electricity to be produced at each of the nuclear power stations now being built.
    Mr. Peyton: The average cost of generation at conventional stations in 1960–61 was 0·88d. a unit, but this figure is not comparable, for a number of reasons, with estimated costs at individual nuclear stations. I am circulating in the OFFICIAL REPORT figures of estimated costs of generation at each of the nuclear stations to be commissioned in the next five years.
    Mr. Roberts: Is the hon. Gentleman convinced that the method of accounting and costing for electricity from nuclear power stations is correct?
    Mr. Peyton: We are at a very early stage at present. As the hon. Gentleman knows very well, the fact of nuclear power has only just come upon us. I think that these figures are as good as can be given.
    Mr. Warbey: Is it not a fact that the capital cost of nuclear power stations is calculated at the ridiculously high interest rate of 6 per cent. and that, if the interest rates in the calculation were reduced to 2½ or 3 per cent., the Sizewell and all subsequent nuclear power stations would more than break even with conventional stations?
    Mr. Peyton: Six per cent. is perfectly correct.
    Mr. Roberts: Is the hon. Gentleman aware of the statements which have been made about the costing of electricity from nuclear power stations and that these forecasts and estimates have been proved to be entirely wrong?
    Mr. Peyton: I am aware of the statements which have been made. The hon. Gentleman suggests that errors have been made in estimating capital costs. In one case I have here, the error was 16 per cent. If he wants to ask about particular power stations, I think that he should put a Question down.
    Following are the figures:

    ESTIMATED TOTAL COST OF GENERATION AT NUCLEAR POWER STATIONS 1962–66

    Year of Commissioning

    Station

    Pence per unit sent out

    1962

    …

    …

    Berkeley

    1·05

    1962

    …

    …

    Bradwell

    0·95

    1963

    …

    …

    Hinkley Point

    0·85

    1964

    …

    …

    Trawsfynydd

    0·81

    1964

    …

    …

    Dungeness

    0·66

    1965

    …

    …

    Sizewell

    0·66

    1966

    …

    …

    Oldbury

    0·66

    The cost of generation at conventional stations will vary according to size and location, ranging from an estimated 0·55-0·70 pence per unit for plant commissioned in 1962 to about 0·50-0·65 pence per unit for plant commissioned in 1966.

    Power Station (Durham)
    Mr. Greyasked the Minister of Power what estimate has been made by the Central Electricity Generating Board, and put to him, of when further consideration will be given to the building of a new power station in the county of Durham.
    Mr. Wood: It is expected that the Board will consider in about two years' time whether to resume the investigation of sites for a new coal-fired power station to be commissioned in the early 1970s, but this is a matter which is kept under regular review.
    Mr. Grey: There is not much consolation in that. Why has Durham County been selected for such shabby treatment by the Central Electricity Generating Board? May we have the right hon. Gentleman's assurance that he will have further talks with the Chairman of the Central Electricity Generating Board and instruct him that there should be a power station built in Durham irrespective of what he thinks? If he fails to do that, will he resign?
    Mr. Wood: I do not think that the Central Electricity Generating Board has treated Durham shabbily. With the new Blythe B station which will come into operation in about three years, there will be sufficient capacity for local demand until the early 1970s. Therefore, any new power station would have to export, with consequent transmission lines, a large part of its output. I have undertaken to several of the hon. Gentleman's hon. Friends to talk further with the Generating Board about the estimates of demand which it has made, but I should not like it to be thought that I had any doubt that the demand it has estimated is, in fact, correctly based.
    Commander Kerans: Does my right hon. Friend understand that there is vast unemployment in the North-East? In my constituency, it is 6·4 per cent. A year ago, I was given to understand that there was the possibility of a power station in the vicinity of my constituency, and I cannot understand why this cannot be looked into as a matter of urgency. I support my Socialist colleagues in this matter in trying to reduce unemployment in the area. May we have power stations, not pipelines?
    Hon. Members: Hear, hear.
    Mr. Wood: I found it difficult to hear the end of my hon. Friend's supplementary question because of the noises opposite. I think he was suggesting that attempts should be made to employ men in the North-East in this way. I feel that it would be wrong to try to provide new employment by generating electricity in anything but the most economic way.
    Mr. Fernyhough: Did the Central Electricity Generating Board come to its decision not to build a new power station in Durham because it believed that, under the present Administration, economic expansion would not be sufficient to use the power which it would produce?
    Mr. Wood: No, Sir. The Central Electricity Generating Board took into account all the facts, including the likely future expansion of industry in the country.

    Iron and Steel Board
    Mr. Leeasked the Minister of Power what directions he has given to the Iron and Steel Board under Section 11 of the Iron and Steel Act, 1953.
    Mr. Wood: None, Sir.
    Mr. Lee: Will the right hon. Gentleman cause an inquiry to be made into steel imports in the last twelve months, and particularly into the type of people importing steel? Is it the case that members of the British Iron and Steal Federation, which last year mounted a very powerful lobby to get an increase in British prices, are importing cheap steel, some from South Africa, including billets and strip, and processing and selling it at British prices, while very large number of steelworkers in Britain are unemployed or are on short-time?
    Mr. Wood: I will do my best to collect any information which the hon. Gentleman thinks may be helpful to me, but that point does not seem to be closely connected with the Question.
    Mr. M. Foot: Since the Minister has said that he will inquire into this question, will he undertake to tell the House his findings? If it were found that a number of steel firms were importing

    27
    steel which could be made in this country, would not that be most reprehensible?
    Mr. Wood: If it is in order to answer a Question on the lines which the hon. Gentleman has in mind, I am always ready to do so.
    Mr. Shinwell: Is the Minister aware that the Question was framed in this fashion because of the difficulty of getting an appropriate Question across the Table? Is he further aware that the real trouble is that the steel firms in this country are engaged in a most despicable racket—
    Mr. Nabarro: Rubbish.
    Mr. Shinwell: —in reducing their capacity, or not using their capacity to its fullest extent, purchasing cheap steel from abroad and selling it to consumers in this country at the high prices fixed by the right hon. Gentleman some time ago?
    Mr. Wood: I think that that supplementary question was framed to give rather than to get information. I certainly realise that the Question was put down in this way because it might not have been easy to get an appropriate Question past the Table. If it is difficult to get an appropriate Question past the Table, it is probably improper for me to answer it.

    Euratom
    Mr. Warbeyasked the Minister of Power whether, in view of the fact that should the United Kingdom join Euratom under the treaty establishing it the Central Electricity Generating Board will, after 1967, be dependent on the Euratom Agency for supplies of nuclear fuel fox its reactors, he will take steps to ensure that the Board will be enabled to build up stocks of such fuels in advance of this situation.
    Mr. Wood: No, Sir. There is no reason to believe that supplies of fuel for nuclear power stations would be adversely affected by our joining Euratom.
    Mr. Warbey: Is it not the case that under the Treaty, after 1967 the Central Electricity Generating Board will not be able to combine supplies of nuclear fuels, even home-produced ones, without the permission of the Agency and except through the Agency's instrumentation and at the prices which it determines? Is it not the case that by entering Euratom, we shall be placing the whole of our
    28
    future nuclear power programme, its development and its pricing at the mercy of the Agency and the Commission of Euratom?
    Mr. Wood: The hon. Member has asked me to allow the Generating Board to build up stocks of uranium. In fact, the Atomic Energy Authority holds stocks of this, which is the fuel used in nuclear generation, and the Article which, I believe, the hon. Member has in mind does not apply to it. It is certainly true that we shall have to get a lot of clarification of various matters during the negotiations. I remind the hon. Member, however, that the object of the Community is to promote the growth of nuclear industries and not to hamper them. Therefore, I do not share the worries which the hon. Member has expressed.

    Gas and Electricity Meters
    Mr. E. L. Mallalieuasked the Minister of Power what is his policy about the fitting of gas and electricity meters under stairs; if he is satisfied that present requirements pay sufficient regard to fire hazard; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Peyton: My right hon. Friend has powers under the Gas and Electricity Acts to make regulations to protect the public so far as practicable from personal injury, fire or other dangers. These powers would be used if necessary. I have no evidence that present practice in the fitting of meters is unsatisfactory.
    Mr. Mallalieu: Does the hon. Gentleman know that recently there have been two fires in my constituency caused by the proximity of electricity and gas meters and that the situation was rendered far more dangerous than otherwise it would have been by the fact that both meters were fitted under the stairs and, therefore, people tended to be trapped upstairs when the fire took place? Does the Minister do nothing about this?
    Mr. Peyton: If the hon. and learned Member will be good enough to let me have details, I will certainly have the case looked at.

  MINISTRY OF HEALTH

    Orange Juice
    Mr. A. Hendersonasked the Minister of Health what further steps

    29
    he is proposing to take to increase the consumption of concentrated orange juice as a welfare food.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health (Miss Edith Pitt): None, Sir; but current measures will continue.
    Mr. Henderson: In view of the nutritional value of this welfare food, may we take it that the Minister will endeavour to obtain greater supplies from next year's crop in Jamaica and the other West Indian territories that produce citrus products?
    Miss Pitt: Supplies are adequate.
    Commander Kerans: Should we not be running down the stocks of these welfare foods and not increasing them, because orange juice, and so on, should be given only to those who really need it?
    Miss Pitt: That is the purpose of the Regulations which we put through the House: to concentrate on the priorities for families who were most in need of help.
    Mr. K. Robinson: Can the hon. Lady say what success her publicity measures have been having? Has the fall in consumption continued or has the trend been reversed in recent months?
    Miss Pitt: There has been a very slight reduction in the decrease in taking up this item, but I would not want to make anything of it. We are continuing the publicity so that mothers shall know that this, by comparison, cheap source of vitamins is available.
    Mr. Henderson: What stops is the Ministry taking to increase the consumption of these foods?
    Miss Pitt: Leaflets, personal persuasion, which is the most important, and general publicity through newspapers, radio and television.

    1961 Census (Housing Information)
    Mr. Frank Allaunasked the Minister of Health if he will expedite the publication of those sections of the 1961 census dealing with households without baths, hot water or inside toilets.
    Miss Pitt: I would refer the hon. Member to my reply to him on 11th December last.
    Mr. Allaun: Because of the special interest in these figures, not least among the estimated 15 million inhabitants, could not these particular figures be given priority, as has been done with certain other sections of the census? Surely, 18 months is a long time to wait, particularly since the knowledge of the vast numbers involved should accelerate Government action?
    Miss Pitt: This work is being processed on a computer and that means a pattern is laid down. To take out one set of figures would delay the general progress, but in fact—and this is what the hon. Member is interested in—publication should begin in the autumn of this year and be completed by 1963.

  HOSPITALS

    Nurses
    Mr. Lubbockasked the Minister of Health the estimated number of trained nurses who emigrated to Commonwealth countries in 1961.
    Miss Pitt: I regret that information on which to base a reliable estimate is not available.
    Mr. Lubbock: Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware of the increasingly numerous advertisements which are being inserted in the nursing journals, for example, by the Canadian health authorities offering salaries of £1,200 a year, with lower charges for board and lodging and improved fringe benefits over and above what is being offered in this country? Is not the hon. Lady concerned about the continued wastage which is occurring because of the Government's refusal to pay the nurses a living wage? Can we interpret the fact that the Minister of Health is one of the few who has not lost his job in the recent holocaust to mean a continuation of the Government's brutal treatment of the nurses' pay claim?
    Miss Pitt: The short answer to the hon. Member's string of supplementary questions is that the number of nurses in the National Health Service continues steadily to rise.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

  UGANDA INDEPENDENCE BILL
  Order for Second Reading read.
  The Minister of Health (Mr. J. Enoch Powell): I have it in Command from the Queen to acquaint the House that Her Majesty, having been informed of the purport of the Bill, has consented to place Her prerogative and interest, so far as they are affected by the Bill, at the disposal of Parliament for the purposes of the Bill.
  3.31 p.m.
  The Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies (Mr. Hugh Fraser): I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.
  This year marks the centenary of the discovery of the source of the Nile, by the explorers Speke and Grant and one hundred years later, almost to the day, and after so many years of darkness, Uganda will achieve her independence. During these years the history of her ancient kingdoms has become linked with our own destiny. The first few years of our protectorate were marked with events as turbulent as the cataracts of the Owen Falls themselves, but since then there has emerged a period of steady, indeed startling, progress, as hon. Members Who know Uganda will agree.
  We came to find warring kingdoms; we leave a Christian country whose peoples have learnt from us the benefits not only of our civilisation but of our institutions. Wealth has increased; much has flourished; but, above all else, I believe, there has emerged a sense of political unity, and aspiration towards an Uganda nation.
  Those who worked at the last two conferences, in September and October of last year and the conference so recently concluded, have all been impressed by the determination of the peoples of Uganda to work out a system of government which will safeguard the identity of the nations and tribes within it and yet, at the same time, give these peoples collectively sufficient cohesion and strength to enable Uganda to stand forth as a nation in the modern world.
  32
  I think that all those who took part in these negotiations will agree that they have not been easy—neither for us, nor for the new African central Government, nor for the kingdoms and the districts. Last October the main framework of the future State was settled, and for this I think that the House owes a debt of gratitude to my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House.
  The essential success of that conference was that Buganda accepted its rôle inside a Uganda State. Great credit is due to His Highness the Kabaka and his advisers for the wise decisions they then took. Nevertheless, a further conference was necessary to tie up the details of the relationship between the central Government and the kingdoms, and to make the final arrangements for the transfer of our authority, and that conference which has just ended, has completed that task. For the success of this conference I would pay high tribute to Mr. Obote, the Leader of the U.P.C. and of the Coalition Government, and also to the delegates of the kingdoms and districts who accepted compromises in the interests of Uganda as a whole and for the achievement of early independence.
  The House has before it this afternoon two documents, the Report of the recent conference, Cmnd. 1778, and the Independence Bill. The conclusions of the conference do not find a place in the Bill, but will find one, of course, in the independence constitution which will be enacted by Order in Council. It is only because full agreement was reached at the conference on the provisions which the Constitution will contain that Her Majesty's Government are able to bring forward this Bill today.
  It was made clear and has been accepted that the time has now come when the individual kingdoms and districts can no longer look to us to safeguard their particular interests. This responsibility will fall inevitably, after independence, upon the Uganda Government themselves. In return, the new Constitution will contain much fuller provisions safeguarding the positions of the kingdoms. Thus, at the periphery the traditions of the peoples, tribes and rulers will be protected, whilst at the centre the independent Government of Uganda will have all the

  33
  powers which they need to govern effectively.
  Whilst general agreement was reached on constitutional matters there was one matter on which, as the House will know, it proved impossible to obtain an agreed settlement. This was the boundaries dispute between Buganda and Bunyoro. Hon. Members will have read Lord Molson's Report on this problem. This Report, which was, I believe, a model of brevity and good sense, called on Buganda to cede to Bunyoro two counties in which there is a majority of Banyoro people. Much time during the conference was devoted by my right hon. Friend to trying to get an agreed solution between the Kabaka's Government and that of the Omukama of Bunyoro; and in this we failed.
  Some hon. Members may suggest that, as we were unable to implement the ideal solution put forward by the Molson Report, the date of independence should have been delayed. I must disagree, and disagree most strongly, for here, I think, two matters must be paramount in our minds, first, the desire of the 6½ million people of Uganda to proceed swiftly to independence, and, secondly, looking back at history, the necessity of avoiding a civil war.
  It was for this reason that the Secretary of State decided that both countries, whilst remaining within the boundaries of Buganda, should have their administration taken over by a third force, the central Government. By doing this, I believe that we shall give the 60,000 people who live there security for the immediate future, and neutralise the threat to peace and good order in Uganda during the first years of independence. A period of impartial administration should create conditions in which a referendum can one day be held.
  Now I turn to the Bill itself. Clause 1 is common form for dealing with a territory which is wholly a Protectorate. The only special point I would make here is that subsection (3) contains a reference to the Second Schedule by which agreements with the various kingdoms are ended. This is similar to the provisions of the India Act and the Act which gave Burma its independence.
  Clause 2 refers to citizenship, and this, again, is in common form, the example
  34
  here being that of Tanganyika. Clause 3 is, again, standard form, and Clause 4, as in the Tanganyika Independence Act, refers to the East African Common Services Organisation and makes the necessary provision, by which funds can be made available under the Colonial Development and Welfare Act, 1959. That, then, is the Bill.
  In conclusion, I would just say two things. First, I am sure that the House will join me in paying tribute to all the British civil servants—Lugard, Sir Harry Johnston and our own contemporaries— who have done such great work in bringing forward Uganda to the state it finds itself in today. It is not only the great civil servants, contemporary and past, but also the missionary societies of all denominations to whom a special tribute should be paid. Of all our territories in Africa, Uganda has perhaps the most advanced and successful education system, and in this the missionaries have played a powerful and important part. I believe that the intelligence and determination of the people must stand them in good stead.
  Proudly, too, I might remind the House that the recent conference expressed the unanimous wish that on attaining independence Uganda should be accepted as a member country of the Commonwealth and that the Queen should remain the Sovereign of its people as Queen of Uganda.
  The difficulties which lie before Uganda are considerable. Clearly, there is great need for restraint, the sort of restraint which we saw at the recent conference. The aspiration of so many peoples, with different histories towards unity is something which must be nurtured carefully. I am sure that, with her political leaders, with the spirit of compromise which was achieved and with the potential wealth of the country —the fact, for example, that there is no land hunger compared with adjacent countries in that part of Africa—Uganda, well-governed and well led, and bearing in mind the Christian objectives of faith, hope and Charity, especially perhaps charity towards each other, can play at the centre of this part of Africa, at the head waters of the Nile itself, an important and vital part in our Commonwealth destiny.
  3.42 p.m.
  Mr. G. M. Thomson: Like the Minister, we on this side of the House welcome this occasion as an opportunity to congratulate Uganda on her achievement of independence and to wish her well in facing the many problems of the future in that part of Africa. Many of us on both sides will hope that Uganda's independence is the second step towards building a great English-speaking East African federation of nations which, by pooling their resources, will be able to raise their living standards more quickly than would otherwise be the case.
  With one exception—the issue of the lost counties—which the Minister has dealt with and which I should like to deal with in more detail in a moment or two, I think that the former Colonial Secretary, the Prime Minister, Mr. Obote, and all those who took part in the recent constitutional conference deserve a great deal of congratulation upon the large measure of success which it managed to achieve. I do not think that looking at Uganda a year or two ago one would have thought that it would have been possible as quickly as this to create a federal structure in which great kingdoms like Buganda would have accepted a place within a framework of central government, and due tribute ought to be paid for that achievement.
  The progress in Uganda over recent years—I am glad to see the Leader of the House here, because he enjoys his share of credit for this—has been fast and fascinating. The main difficulty lying in the way of freedom has been not the reluctance of the metropolitan Power to withdraw but the fact that inside Uganda there has been an entirely indigenous African conflict of ideas between modern political nationalism and traditional tribal patterns of government. I confess that sometimes, as a Socialist, I have found myself irritated at the reluctance of the kingdoms in Uganda to fit into a more modern pattern of development, and than I have remembered that, as a Scot, I find these prickly loyalties to kingdoms within a larger framework extremely understandable. Provided that the right sort of progress is made, the kind of loyalty that these kingdoms enjoy is an important element in stability—but I
  36
  stress, provided that the right sort of progress is made.
  The struggle between these two sets of ideas in Africa has been sharper and at times more dramatic in Uganda than it has been in other parts of the continent. But I think that what has developed in Uganda, and what one hopes will develop in future, will be of very considerable significance for other countries. How Uganda succeeds in reconciling these different concepts of African society will influence other parts of the continent. All who wish Uganda well will echo the final words of the Minister, voicing the hope that there will be enough tolerance, generosity and charity on both sides to bring about a successful synthesis.
  It would have been a greater encouragement of those hopes if the independence agreement had also included an agreement about the vexatious dispute between the kingdoms of Buganda and Bunyoro about the lost counties. We had an indication of how much that dispute is still with us at the beginning of our sitting this afternoon, when the hon. Lady the Member for Plymouth, Devonport (Miss Vickers), introduced a petition from Bunyoro people in the lost counties. In the petition they appealed to She Government even at this late date to accept the recommendations of the Molson Commission which would have returned two of the five counties in dispute to Bunyoro.
  In discussing this it is important to appreciate that, from the Bunyoro point of view, the proposition in the petition was, in fact, a compromise. Bunyoro found the finding of the Molson Commission disappointing, as Buganda did. I myself would echo the words of the Molson Commission—I am afraid that now they must be quoted with some disappointment—when it said:
  "We hope for a generous act of statesmanship on the part of Buganda. We can conceive of no other single act which would add more to the stature of Buganda within Uganda, or would contribute more to the stability of the Protectorate on the eve of independence."
  Looking over the history of this matter, I think that, although, in a legal sense, Buganda no doubt has a great deal on her side, she has been unwise to stick to the letter of the law on this matter. It would have sent the new Commonwealth country of Uganda off to

  37
  a splendid start if only Uganda had been able to leave this dangerous dispute behind her.
  I do not think that Her Majesty's Government can escape a considerable share of the blame for the fact that it has not been possible so far to solve this dispute in advance of independence. The lost counties problem was born in as naked an act of colonial annexation as one will find in the archives, and I am afraid that it is ending in an atmosphere of delay and indecision on the part of the Government which in its way is as deplorable as the excessively arbitrary nature of the original annexation.
  It is a long time since my hon. Friend the Member for Flint, East (Mrs. White) raised in this House the issue of the lost counties. It is more than a year since the Munster Commission recommended that the matter should be dealt with by a referendum. At the conference last October it was decided to send out the Molson Commission, but there were delays in appointing it, delays in getting it out there, and even longer delays in publishing its Report.
  That Commission issued a very grave warning to the Government It said that there might be dangerous consequences if its recommendations were not implemented while we still held the ring in Uganda in advance of independence. Paragraph 106 of its Report says:
  "We think it therefore an integral part of our scheme that the transfer of territory shall have taken place before the 9th October, while the Governor is still in office."
  The Commission was a small one. It included people of such great distinction as Lord Molson, a former Conservative Minister, and Earl Listowel. Men of that character do not lightly issue a warning of that gravity. A Government who delay until they have no room left for manœuvre on this issue are taking upon themselves a heavy responsibility. Although we look forward to a prosperous future for Uganda, we have a duty to underline this problem on an occasion like this.
  What the Government finally put forward at the eleventh hour, in the recent constitutional conference, was the proposal that there should be a minimum cooling-off period of two years in the lost counties, under the central Administration, to be followed by a referendum.
  38
  But the Government did not state any maximum period within which the referendum should be held. I understand that the Mukama of Bunyoro has written to the Colonial Secretary suggesting that a maximum period should be inserted. The people of Bunyoro have an understandable fear that without some limiting period during which a referendum must take place they might find themselves in the same sort of situation as exists in Kashmir, where the promised referendum has been indefinitely postponed.
  I have great faith in the integrity and ability of the present Prime Minister, Mr. Obote, to find a successful and peaceful solution to the problem, but the further request from the people of Bunyoro, put in a spirit of compromise, should have careful consideration from the Government, and I hope that the Minister will say that it is possible to discuss this matter with Mr. Obote and the others concerned in Uganda. It is also of importance that if the Bunyoro people are to be reassured there should be more precise information than we have had so far about the way in which the central administration of these disputed counties will be carried out, and what it will mean in terms of police administration and the appointment of local chiefs. I hope that the Minister will give the House more information on this matter in winding up the debate.
  I have expressed my disappointment at the lack of magnanimity on the part of Buganda on this issue, although I understand the internal political difficulties which its leaders have to face. It is also fair to say, on the side of Buganda, that it has its own substantial complaint about the way in which the Government have dealt with the matter. Its people had understood from the Government, over the years, that this was a closed issue. My information is that at the October conference Buganda understood that the Molson Commission did not have within its terms of reference any discussion of a change of boundaries.
  I understand that Lord Molson himself felt in some doubt about this and took the matter up with the Prime Minister. Indeed, he refers to this fact at the beginning of his Report. I further understand—and I shall be grateful for

  39
  correction if I am wrong—that Lord Molson received a letter from the Prime Minister saying that his terms of reference did include possible changes of boundaries. This letter from the Prime Minister to Lord Molson remained a private matter for many months, until it was suddenly exposed at the constitutional conference.
  Here again, we have an example of the Government engaging in what the parties to this dispute are bound to feel to be rather devious dealing, and it is extremely unfortunate that the Government's participation in the matter should at this point have been less successful and less creditable than their general achievements in respect of the whole constitutional development of Uganda.
  Having said that, we must face the fact that our responsibility for the future political shape of Uganda ends on 9th October. But our responsibility for the future economic welfare of its people by no means ends then. Indeed our responsibility in this respect is likely to become greater rather than less in the years that lie ahead, if we are to match the obligations imposed on us. We are getting away from the concept that when a dependent territory becomes a new and indpendent member of the Commonwealth, at midnight on independence night a magical change takes place, and that all the kinds of help that we formerly gave, under the auspices of the Colonial Office, cease upon the stroke of twelve, or, if they continue at all, have to be reshaped under different conditions. The House and the Government are beginning to accept that there must be a great deal more continuity.
  The last time we discussed this question was in our debate on the Jamaica Independence Bill, just over a month ago, when my right hon. Friend the Member for Dundee, West (Mr. Strachey) pointed out that one form of continuity could be achieved if the Colonial Development Corporation became the Commonwealth Development Corporation, so that it was able to carry on new projects in the formerly dependent territories where it had operated with such success.
  We hope that out of the tremendous turmoil now taking place in Government circles we may have, as one of the new
  40
  ideas coming from the new Conservative Government, a realisation of the fact that a decision on this matter is long overdue, and that Uganda will be one of the first places which is able to enjoy the expanded operations of a Commonwealth Development Corporation, based on the foundations of the work done by the Colonial Development Corporation.
  Uganda needs a great deal of sympathetic economic help from this country and the developed world generally. Uganda, perhaps as much as any other part of the underdeveloped world, has seen its standard of living falling in recent years because of the drop in prices of its basic commodities. Uganda is a striking illustration of the fact that by far the most important form of economic help which developed countries can give to under-developed countries is to buy their products at stable prices. Figures taken from the World Bank Survey recently carried out in Uganda show that during the period 1952–60 the volume of exports from Uganda— the goods that Uganda sold to the rest of the world—doubled, but that during the same period the value of those exports dropped by about 8 per cent.
  Uganda is dependent on coffee and cotton. Together, they account for nearly 90 per cent. of her exports, and one-third of her revenue. I understand that Uganda produces more coffee than Tanganyika and Kenya put together. According to the Colonial Office Digest of Statistics, coffee prices have been dropping rapidly in recent years. They were running at 278s. per cwt. in 1958, but are now down to 140s. per cwt.—a drop of about 50 per cent.
  Uganda is a strong reminder to us not to forget that the average developing country earns five-sixths of its foreign exchange through trade and only one-sixth through foreign aid. I repeat; Britain should take the lead among the developed countries of the world in trying to arrive at some form of stable commodity prices. This, far more than anything else, is the basic way to provide economic aid.
  But this does not mean that we do not also have an obligation to provide direct financial assistance, and particularly direct technical assistance. The Minister may have had an opportunity of

  41
  studying the World Bank Survey which has recently been published. It provides some staggering figures, showing how poor Uganda is in the various forms of expertise needed for a developing country. To give one example, I understand that there is today only one trained African electrical engineer in Uganda.
  The Minister mentioned that the educational development in Uganda bore favourable comparison with educational development in any other African territory. If that is so, it does not say a very great deal for what is happening in other African territories. The World Bank Survey says that only 1 per cent. of the 14 to 17 age group in Uganda enjoys any form of secondary education at all. Professor Arthur Lewis, the leading expert in this field, has laid down that the minimum for a developing country in secondary education should be 4 per cent. of that age group. That 1 per cent. is a very generous estimate, and includes everybody who could possibly be included in secondary schools.
  The World Bank Survey also says that there were in 1961 only 40 African graduate teachers in a population of 6½ million. In 1959 out of 246 rural grant-aided schools all but 28 of the teachers there were expatriate teachers. Here is a legacy of educational poverty which demands continued help from us on a very generous scale of assistance indeed. The World Bank team has done its usual competent job on development planning in Uganda, and has produced a draft five-year development plan. This would involve altogether development expenditure of about £34 million, and the World Bank says that about half of this can be produced from local resources, which is reasonably good, and is in many ways a tribute to the work that has gone on while Uganda has been the responsibility of the Colonial Office.
  The Report goes on to say that there will be a gap, which will need to be met from foreign sources, of between £9½ million and £15½ million. It will be £9½ million if the United Kingdom completely fulfils all its terminal obligations to Uganda, and gives aid of about £9½ million. It will rise to about £13½ million if the United Kingdom gives aid on a minimum scale of only £5½ million. I hope that we shall get some information from the Minister, before the debate ends, on the scale of the financial help
  42
  which we are to give to Uganda, and if we are to play our part in helping to achieve the target laid down by the World Bank.
  In conclusion, I want to mention one institution in Uganda which particularly interests me, and which, I think, is an outstanding creation of the period of colonial rule there. I refer to Makerere College, Which I hope will soon be one of the principal parts of a new university of East Africa. Makerere has the largest library in East Africa—over 100,000 books and pamphlets.
  I mention Makerere not only because I hope that we shall give all the encouragement we can to continuing development there, but because it is at present a training ground for a large number of young British and American graduates, who have gone straight out there from university to take their teacher training and to go on to commit themselves to spending the first year or two of their professional lives as teachers, giving the educational help which is so badly needed in that part of Africa. Makerere seems to be in many ways setting an example of the kind of mutual help which we ought to be developing between the advanced countries and the emerging countries of the world.
  I think that Uganda can take that fact that there are these young people out there at the start of their lives as a sign of the keen sense that exists in this country and in America that the ending of a dependent colonial empire and its replacement by an independent Commonwealth does not mean that our sense of obligation to these countries will in any way be diminished. I hope that Her Majesty's Government, in giving assistance of various sorts to Uganda, will live up to the spirit that is being shown today by these young graduates at Makerere College.
  4.4 p.m.
  Mr. Patrick Wall: I should like to add my voice to those from both sides of the House in expressing a welcome to Uganda as an independent member of the Commonwealth. If I have one or two criticisms to make, it is not in any way because I feel that this independence is not deserved, or should nave been delayed, but rather

  43
  that I believe that Her Majesty's Government should have been able to solve these problems before now, and before we were presented with this Bill, which gives Uganda its independence.
  On a number of occasions in the House, I have made the point that it is very easy to give independence to a colonial territory, but it is not so easy to ensure that the country will be able to stand on its own feet when it becomes independent, and will face the stress and strains which we know so well await in the world of the 1960s. It has been said by those wiser than I that there are certain criteria to be fulfilled before a country can become independent, and five have been suggested. They are: there should be a national Government acceptable to the people; there should be a common loyalty and an ability to live as one nation; there should be economic self reliance and an expanding economy; there should be an efficient indigenous, and, if necessary, expatriate Civil Service; and, finally, there should be a true development of education producing an informed electorate, as well as national leaders.
  I should like to apply these criteria to the country whose independence we are debating today. The first and most important is a national Government, acceptable to the people, and a common loyalty. Uganda has been bedevilled for many years by two important constitutional disputes. The first concerns the position of Buganda, which is the largest and most powerful tribal area in the country, and the second is that of the lost counties. I should like to discuss these two problems separately.
  In the post-war world, we have had trouble in Buganda in one form or another in 1945, in 1949 and in 1953. This was ended by the 1955 agreement, in which the Kabaka returned to his country as a constitutional monarch. In spite of the agreement, two years later, Buganda boycotted the national Legislature from 1958 to 1961. In 1961, registration took place for a general election, but in Buganda, out of 700,000 people who could have registered, only 35,000 actually did so and considerably fewer actually voted
  44
  We may say that this is because of their loyalty to the Kabaka and his Government, or it may have been due to intimidation, but, as a result, the Democratic Party won 20 seats in Buganda with a very small number of votes and 24 seats outside Buganda. The other national party, the Uganda People's Congress, won no seats in Buganda and carried 35 seats outside, and the result was that the Democratic Party became the elected Government and its leader, Mr. Benedicto Kiwanuka became the first Prime Minister in the history of Uganda.
  We come now to the 1961 constitutional conference, at which it was agreed that Buganda could have the alternative of making direct or indirect elections of its representatives to the central Government. That, straight away, put Buganda in a position of controlling the central Government. That is what was forecast by the Government delegation, and I would remind the House that the Chief Minister at the time, in Cmnd. 1523, which is the Report of the Uganda Constitutional Conference, 1961, recorded his emphatic dissent from the proposal that Buganda should be allowed to have indirect elections to the central Government. He objected particularly, in paragraph 87, to
  "… the Secretary of State's intention that this law, made by the Uganda legislature, should be abrogated by an Order in Council without reference to the people of Uganda. He considered that this would be tantamount to disenfranchising the electors in the Buganda constituencies."
  After that constitutional conference, the Kabaka-Yekka, the Kabaka's party, was formed, and at the recent general election in 1962, we find that the U.P.C. won 37 seats, which was two more than previously, and that the Democratic Party won 22 seats, which were two less than previously, all outside Buganda and Kabaka-Yekka won all 21 seats in Buganda. Now, we have the position which Kiwanuka feared would arise, at the time of the constitutional conference, that one party, which is the only party allowed in Buganda, holds the balance in the central Government.
  This could be dangerous. I will put it no higher than that I believe that I shall receive the support of hon. Members on both sides of the House in saying that we rely on the good sense of

  45
  the present Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition to find a way round these very great difficulties in which we have left the central Government.
  Mr. Jeremy Thorpe: Can the hon. Member explain what he means by saying that only one party can take part in the elections?
  Mr. Wall: If the hon. Gentleman has been to Buganda he will realise that what the Kabaka says goes. There was considerable intimidation, as I implied earlier, in 1961, and it was virtually impossible for the other panties to register or be elected at the last general election.
  Mr. Thorpe: That is not true. It is completely untrue.
  Mr. Wall: The hon. Gentleman and I may disagree, but the people of Buganda and the people of Uganda know that it is the truth. Members of the U.P.C. and of the Democratic Party know that it is true. One of the points which the hon. Gentleman forgets when he talks about Africa is the extent of the intimidation which has existed and which still exists.
  Mr. Thorpe: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. A grave charge has been made against a country, namely, that political parties are not allowed. This is factually incorrect and I call on the hon. Member to withdraw.
  Mr. Speaker: If it factually incorrect, that characteristic cannot raise a point of order.
  Mr. Wall: To correct any possible mis-impression which I may have given to the House, may I say again that I believe there was considerable intimidation in Buganda in 1961, and again in 1962, which prevented either the U.P.C. or the Democratic Party from registering voters or of voting for members of those two parties in those elections. In the years since the war or, rather, in the years since the Kabaka returned to his country, the whole history of Buganda shows that the nominees of himself or his Prime Minister have carried the day. That is largely because of the intimidation which they are prepared to use.
  I wish to go on to the second point, the recovery of the lost counties. This
  46
  dispute started in the last century, or at the 1900 agreement, and is still a live issue, after over sixty years. So it is a matter of considerable importance to the people of that country. In 1961, the Munster Report said, about this dispute:
  "While feelings remain as they are at the present, the dispute is likely to make it impossible for Buganda and Bunyoro to co-exist amicably."
  In the next paragraph the Report states:
  "There is also a distinct danger that the dispute over the 'lost counties' might become a casus belli involving other parts of Uganda."
  Those are serious warnings from a well-informed Commission which went on to recommend a referendum to settle the problem.
  In 1961, came the constitutional conference, when the Kabaka rejected the idea of a referendum. The Secretary of State suggested a Commission of Privy Councillors and the Bunyoro representatives walked out. One can, therefore, appreciate the difficulty of the task of trying to get an agreement. However, the Secretary of State, rightly, carried on, and appointed his Commission of Privy Councillors. I should like to quote from the Report of this Commission, which stated:
  "We must again emphasise the dangers of the present situation and the possibility referred to by the Monster Commission of civil war…. Civil strife would gradually develop into civil war, which would not be confined to the disputants if the Bunyoro succeeded in enlisting the support of neighbouring tribes."
  On 16th June of this year, as a result of the Report, The Times had this to say:
  "Bunyoro, however, has sympathisers and the Buganda are sometimes unpopular, and the Privy Councillors reported that the quarrel should be resolved before independence lest there should be bloodshed afterwards. Can that advice be set aside?"
  When we study the Report of the 1962 constitutional conference we find that the advice was, indeed, set aside. There is to be no transfer of the territories. Administration of the counties is to be taken on by the central Government. That is perhaps a reasonable compromise, but the Report goes on to say that after not less than two years from the date of transfer the National Assembly will decide on the date for a referendum. In other words, we are washing our hands of the problem until after

  47
  independence—a problem that two Commissions have already said could lead to civil war.
  I believe that we are right in creating a federal set-up for Uganda. But I believe that because of expediency and a desire to cut our commitments, we are leaving a position where one part of the federation holds the balance—and perhaps may prove predominant—in the central Government. We are also leaving a dispute which has been simmering for sixty years and could break out after independence. I beg my hon. Friend to listen to the appeals made from both sides of the House to fix a definite date for this referendum. If he does not do so, I think it is extremely doubtful whether the referendum will ever take place.
  I suggest that the precedent which we are creating is a dangerous one. We have left the most powerful tribe in Uganda in a strong position to bid for power over the whole country. Whether they will do so, history will show, but they are being left in a very strong position. Will that be the precedent for Kenya? Shall we leave the most powerful tribe there, Jomo Kenyatta's Kikuyu, in the same position? Or shall we ensure that the difficult federal, regional and tribal problems are settled before independence? If they are not, we may have more than a civil war on our hands.
  I wish to move from constitutional issues and to mention one or two other matters. The hon. Member for Dundee, East (Mr. G. M. Thomson) underlined the importance of the economic help to be given to newly independent countries. We know that Uganda has a £54·2 million five-year plan. My figures may not quite agree with those quoted by the hon. Member, but I understand that this country has promised £10 million up to 1964 towards financing that plan. About £2 million is being obtained from other international sources and the rest will be raised in East Africa. This, it would seem, will place a heavy burden on the finances of Uganda and I hope that the Minister will be able to give more details about the financial help which Uganda will need and which, I am sure, hon. Members will agree that we have a responsibility to give.
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  This is particularly so in view of the fact that 1961 was an extremely bad year for the country because of the weather. The cotton yield was the lowest for fourteen years. The coffee crop has been poor. Not only that, but coffee has had low world prices and the Uganda export quota under the International Coffee Agreement has been reduced. Again, because of the weather, copper, the third of the most important exports, is down by £750,000 in value, compared with other years. Therefore, Uganda had a rather bad year in 1961 and I hope that we shall be as generous as possible.
  To look on the bright side, there is the new steel mill which is to be ready this year. There is also a new fertiliser factory and the Owen Falls Dam is undoubtedly paying enormous dividends and Will provide cheap power not only for Uganda, but also for Kenya. This seems the time to bring out the point that the economic future of Uganda is bound up with that of her neighbours. She is already supplying electricity to Kenya. She depends on one railway line, one road and one port, Mombassa. From an economic point of view the only thing which makes sense is a federation of the four territories of East Africa. That must be decided by the people on the spot, rather than by this House of Commons. I hope that both sides of the House will join in saying that we hope the leaders of these countries, as they assume responsibility for their own affairs, will give even more serious consideration to an economic federation than they have given in the past.
  I wish to ask the Minister about the Civil Service. It is vital, particularly during the transitional period between dependence and independence. What is the present position in regard to expatriates? In Tanganyika, 75 per cent. of the civil servants have stayed on after independence but since then the picture has not been such a happy one. Many civil servants have left and the repercussions on Uganda and Kenya are bound to be serious. Can my right hon. Friend say what the future looks like for expatriates, both those who are designated and those who were recruited locally?
  My hon. Friend stressed the importance of education. In 1960, 18·5 per cent. of the total income of the country

  49
  was spent on education. Hon. Members on both sides of the House will welcome the honour recently paid to the rector of Makerere University, Sir Bernard de Bunsen. The work of the missionaries has also been stressed. Much of this educational progress has been due to missionaries of all Christian denominations who have helped Uganda to move from the old world of tribalism and witchcraft into the new world of the 1960s.
  Uganda is a rich country full of happy people. I think that in Buganda she has some of the most skilled negotiators in the world. I am very sorry that we in this country have not been able to solve all the problems associated with the constitutional advance of Uganda before giving her full independence. In spite of that, we have done a good job in that country. We all wish her well and hope that perhaps she may be one of the few African countries which will prove that a Parliamentary democracy can be maintained on the pattern which we in Westminster know, by having both a Government and an Opposition. It looks as though she is setting forth on the path of Western Parliamentary democracy and we all wish her well.
  4.22 p.m.
  Mr. John Dugdale: I do not wish to follow the hon. Member for Haltemprice (Mr. Wall) in detail into the question of controversy between the different sections in Uganda. In general, I Chink that the Government have been right to give independence even though these problems are not yet solved. It is the same decision as had to be made in India. There were differences of opinion there between one section and another, but the Government decided that the country should be given independence even if it meant that India would be divided into two parts. The right idea is to give freedom and let people there build on it.
  Mr. Wall: That might be a dangerous parallel. Although I agree that we should give independence to Uganda, we should remember that in the case of India it led to over 1 million deaths. We do not want to see that in Uganda.
  Mr. Dugdale: We do not want to see that, but we also do not want to see countries held in subjection because they have not solved all their problems. That
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  would be a wrong principle. It is not the principle which the Government are pursuing. I think that the Government are right in the action they are taking and I welcome the Bill.
  It is now between sixty and seventy years since it was announced at Westminster that there should be a British protectorate over Uganda. Those years have seen very considerable success, much greater success than we have seen in some other countries which we have controlled. First, there is a greater degree of prosperity in Uganda than in most countries of East Africa and in many other African countries. Secondly, there is no race prejudice there.
  I remember, when I went out there in 1950, on behalf of the Government, the difference I found between Kenya and Uganda. I remember what a joy it was to go to Uganda and leave behind all the race prejudice which existed in Kenya at that time—I do not say it is there now—and to go to Uganda, where there was no race prejudice. The principal reason was that it was rightly decided at that time that there should be no white land ownership in Uganda. There could have been exactly the same position as there was in Kenya, but that decision was taken. I think that it was rightly taken. The Under Secretary himself spoke of the fact that there is no land hunger in Uganda. One reason is that the land belongs to the Africans and there has mot been a large section given to the white population. I think that that was wise.
  As others have done, I wish to pay tribute to the work of the civil servants who have made such a success of their task while we have been in control of Uganda. It is because of their work that Uganda is in the state of prosperity it enjoys today. We owe a debt of gratitude to them. I hope that they will be treated as well as possible both by this Government and by the new Uganda Government and that they will not fail between two stools in the way in which many civil servants have done in such circumstances in the past.
  I wish to refer, again, to the prosperity which exists in Uganda. In spite of the fact that there are no British farmers there, much of the land is very well farmed, having regard to the limited tools and skills which the people have.

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  It is well terraced and well looked after, and generally it is fertile land, very much more so than in Tanganyika and other parts of East Africa. As hon. Members have said, the country depends basically on two main crops. That is always a very serious thing in the economy of any country, and I hope that we shall be able to introduce some kind of system by which their prices can be stabilised. That was done with considerable success in Ghana when that country was the Gold Coast and it has been carried on in other countries by bulk purchase and the levelling of prices through a commodity board. I hope these things can be done and continued in Uganda.
  Mr. H. Fraser: The problem is how to stabilise commodity prices on a falling market. I must point out that in Ghana the matter was comparatively simple. It was a question of giving stabilised prices on a rising market and money was put into the "kitty".
  Mr. Dugdale: That was because the decision was taken at the right moment, when prices were rising. Obviously, it would be much more difficult to do it now in Uganda. The moment to choose is when prices are high rather than when they are low.
  In spite of all the prosperity we have given to Uganda she has achieved independence only after a struggle, as has been the case in all countries of the Commonwealth. The first time I went to Uganda I went as a representative of Her Majesty's Government, and was escorted by police. The second time I went I was also escorted by the police. This time it was not to protect me, but to see that I did no wrong, because I was there at the invitation of some of the people of Uganda and it was quite a different visit. Some of the people I visited were at that time in prison. They have now come out of prison and are occupying positions in the Legislative Assembly. That is an excellent thing and it is in keeping with the best traditions of modern British colonial rule.
  One person whom I visited in particular, Mr. Mulira, was in prison then. I understand that he is now a representative of the Legislative Assembly on the African Common Services Organisation where, I am sure, he will be able to do very good work. Even when he was
  52
  in prison I had an example of the kind of methods by which Britain carries on. I visited the Governor and took with me the wife of this gentleman. She said that she ought not to go to see the Governor because her husband was in prison, and she would stay in the car. I mentioned to the Governor that I had someone waiting for me in the car and he asked who it was. I told him and he said, "Oh, it's Rebecca. I must see her at once."
  That is an extraordinary sort of thing to happen in any Colony, and I do not think that it happens in many Colonies other than our own. Mr. Mulira is, as I have said, now a representative on the African Common Services Organisation.
  I very much welcome Clause 4, which appears to me to give wide powers to help that organisation. It is a good thing that that can be done, and may possibly make up for the fact that the C.D.C. cannot help countries which are free. I hope that this problem will be overcome before long, because I think that later —not in connection with this Bill—there may be some proposals to make it a Commonwealth and not a Colonial Development Council. C.D.C. has done considerable work in Uganda. It has helped in the Kalinde copper mines to great benefit, and it should be of even more benefit if permitted to help.
  The Minister also mentioned the Uganda Development Corporation—a very good form of public enterprise— which we on this side of the House like very much, and I am glad that some hon. Members opposite also like it. It has been responsible for many activities, including the production of cement and the processing of fish, both of which have been done with considerable success. Uganda again has great resources in power and the Government scheme of the Owen Falls dam has been developed by the Government and could not have been developed otherwise. I am glad to know that industries are being started near it on a wide scale.
  How can we contribute to all this? In the first place, presumably we can give money, and I hope that we shall do so through every possible channel in order to provide the capital needed to develop these schemes. We can also provide technicians, and I hope that we shall send there men with the skill to run some of these schemes.

  53
  That brings me to consider the question of education. It is undoubtedly true that while the Africans are better educated in Uganda than in many other parts of Africa, the level of higher education cannot possibly be called high and should be very much higher. I pay my tribute to Makerere, but it deals with only a very small number of students, and I hope that we shall continue to help, particularly through the Commonwealth education schemes which are now developing, in teacher-training and scholarships. I hope that in this way we shall help Uganda to develop her education service still further. In the past, much of the education has come from the missionaries, and I pay tribute to the missionaries of all religions for the fine work which they have done in education. But we cannot depend on them indefinitely, and they must be helped if we are to have a modern system of education there. I hope that that will be done.
  Uganda is a country with very great charm—a charm which is felt by everyone who goes there. I would say that it has more charm than many other countries in Africa. Sir Andrew Cohen described vividly his feeling when, sitting in New York, with all the skyscrapers around him, of longing to be back in Uganda with all its beauty. Many of us have had that feeling. I once met a teacher who was arriving in Uganda by aeroplane and said to her, "Are you not sorry to leave England?" She replied, "Not at all. I fed that I am coming back home to Uganda". She was a British teacher, but she was glad to get back to Uganda because she liked it so much. Whatever our feelings may be about the lost counties and any other disputes which have occurred, all of us join in saying to the people of Uganda, "We give you freedom. May you live in prosperity and 'peace".
  4.35 p.m.
  Miss Joan Vickers: I am very pleased to have the opportunity of taking part in the debate, especially as I have presented a Petition to the House about one aspect of the Bill. We have had two able speeches, giving a great deal of detail, by the hon. Member for Dundee, East (Mr. G. M. Thomson) and my hon. Friend the Member for Haltemprice (Mr. Wall), so I
  54
  do not intend to go into as much detail as they did, but will make one or two points in particular.
  The history of this territory is fascinating. A series of tribal states have come together, mostly in agreement with Her Majesty Queen Victoria, and now they are forming a country which is to acknowledge the present Queen, and is to become an independent country within the Commonwealth. More than any other territory in Africa, there has been documented history of Uganda. Many books have been written, and tremendous interest has been shown in the territory. Going back to the days of Speke, there was discovered a very highly civilised Kingdom of Buganda and also the rather larger Kingdom of Bunyoro. The fact that today we are able to bring these together with the other kingdoms shows bow far there has been careful consideration and hard work between all the peoples, to make this possible.
  I should like to pay tribute to the Christian missions, all of which have done outstanding work in this territory, probably more than has been done in any other territory of Africa. At one time education was left entirely to the missions. They have fulfilled a very great rôle, and I hope that they will be allowed to go on working in an atmosphere of peace.
  I also pay tribute to the voluntary workers, having been connected with voluntary work in Uganda, particularly work for the blind. I think that Uganda was the first State to undertake work in this way through realising that the blind were human beings, working out schemes for earning their living. I sincerely hope that this work will continue.
  In this territory the work done by women has been far more advanced than elsewhere. Women's clubs have played an important part in the education of older women, and young children in the informal manner. I have toad pleasure in visiting them, and I know the part which they have played in placing the education of the older women on a firm basis. I join the hon. Member for Dundee, East in praising the work of Makerere College, and I hope that in the future this College will keep its doors open to other students within Africa. One of the great pleasures of going to

  55
  this college, where I have on more than one occasion addressed the students, is to find that the students are integrated there and that one can see people from Tanganyika, Zanzibar and Kenya. I hope that this practice will continue after independence.
  While in no way opposing the Bill, I should like certain safeguards to be placed in At, following the Petition which I have presented on behalf of the people of Bangamazzi and Buyaga. In Clause 1 (2) line 17, it is made quite clear that no action can be taken by this country about the future affairs of Uganda after October, 1962. I feel that before we agree to the Bill in its present form we should make some further recommendations. It is essential that action is taken prior to full independence to do justice to the people of Buyaga and Banganazzi. This was mentioned in the Munster Report and the Molson Report, which have been quoted by my hon. Friends. I agree with the recommendation of the Molson Committee, and I should like to see some action taken in the Bill. The Molson recommendations for independence should be implemented at once or Her Majesty's Government should give full and cogent reasons for refusing to implement those recommendations. We in the House are entitled to have some reasons why they are not being implemented.
  Otherwise, they should have a referendum at once while the British are there, and not, as it is stated at present, mot earlier than three years after independence. Alternatively, a date should be written into the Independence Bill and, if the referendum does not take place by that date, the peoples should have the right of appeal to the Privy Council, as paragraph 34 of Cmnd. 1778 says that there is to be a right of appeal direct to the Privy Council. These people must have their future safeguarded, and I hope that these points will be considered by the Government.
  I further hope that, if it is considered that a referendum should take place, either before or after independence, the roll of voters to be used for the referendum will be that used in the general election held in the two counties in March, 1962. It would be fairer to use this roll, as we know that it is a fully
  56
  compiled roll and therefore cannot be altered.
  Paragraph 89 of the Molson Report says:
  "It strikes us as being most significant that while Banyoro on both sides of the boundary were prepared to acquiesce under protest in the 1900 settlement while British Administration was still firmly in the saddle, the course of events since 1955 has shown clearly that they are not prepared to tolerate the present situation after independence."
  There were three very able men on the Molson Commission. They were sent to the lost counties for the purpose of finding what the people of the Territories thought. They put this, in their Report, and it is something of which we should take special note. The paragraph continues:
  "Even during the later stages of the British, Protectorate it has been necessary for the Governor to ask the Katikiro of Bunyoro to make an appeal for order in the sazas, which he did with success … We will go so far as to say that after the withdrawal of British Administration, it will be an impossible task for the Buganda Government to maintain law and order in Buyaga."
  Paragraph 90 contains these words:
  "It is vain to hope that any improvement in social or economic services, or even a generous measure of internal self-government within Buganda, will mollify emotions so strongly felt."
  We know that national emotions are very high all over the world. There is a fear that these people, because of their national emotions, may find their outlet in some form of civil war, as has been said by one or two hon. Members.
  It is very unwise of the Government to wash their hands in this very important matter. The Government are saying, "All right. You can have this referendum, but not when we are there to safeguard the position". There is, moreover, no certainty that the referendum will ever be held. Therefore, it is our task in the House to ensure that some Amendment is made to the Bill to try to safeguard the position.
  Paragraph 157 of Cmnd. 1523 says:
  "Bunyoro claims that historically a wide area in the western part of Buganda, comprising six counties, formed part of Bunyoro. that a large proportion of the population of the area are Banyoro, and that under Buganda's rule this section of the population has suffered discrimination. The area in question forms part of the territory of Buganda under the terms of the 1900 Uganda Agreement."

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  There were six counties, and all that is in dispute now are the two counties, so there has been a very generous settlement on behalf of the Banyoro. Therefore, I suggest that we should ensure that their rights are entirely safeguarded in regard to the two counties under discussion.
  Paragraph 158 says:
  "The Munstar Commission emphasised the danger that other parts of Uganda might become involved in this long-standing dispute, and even foresaw that it might lead to civil war."
  The Munster Commission was looking at this matter only as a sideline; it was not its main object. Following this I presume that the Government were so worried that they agreed to send out another Commission made up of two Privy Councillors.
  Paragraph 159 of Cmnd Paper 1523 says:
  "The Secretary of State discussed the problem with His Highness The Kabaka of Buganda and R.A. The Omukama of Bunyoro. The Kabaka was unable to agree that a referendum should be held."
  If he was unable to agree then, what will be the pressure put upon the Government later not to have a referendum in the future?
  The paragraph continues:
  "The Secretary of State therefore suggested to the Conference that he should invite the Prime Minister to appoint a Commission of Privy Councillors to investigate the present position and to submit recommendations."
  We have had the Commission. Surely we sent it out because we could not get agreement before? We sent it to try to get some definite recommendations. We have now got the definite recommendations but we are ignoring them. It was useless to send out the Molson Commission if it was not the Government's intention to follow its recommendations. Therefore, in welcoming the Bill, I hope that we shall see that justice is done to some people who obviously the Government must have been worried about after the original conference, otherwise they would not have sent out the second Commission. I hope that ways will be found to write into the Bill some safeguards or, if for some technical reason this cannot be done—my hon. Friend may tell me that it is not practical—that some agreement will be drawn up between the parties concerned before independence inserting
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  a definite date for the referendum, so that, if that date is not adhered to, they can under the Constitution have the right of appeal to the Privy Council. I hope that ways will be found to protect these people of the lost counties. It would be not only for their benefit but I feel that in future we shall be very sorry if there is trouble there, because I think that we have been very weak on this occasion and not provided the proper safeguards for the people concerned.
  After saying this, I should like to wish Mr. Obote and his Government every success in the coming years. We shall look forward to further co-operation between this country and Uganda and also between the four territories, Uganda, Tanganyika, Kenya and Zanzibar, I hope that these counties will form a very happy unit in the future.
  4.48 p.m.
  Mr. F. M. Bennett: I want to make only one or two remarks in support of the comments which have been made by my hon. Friends the Members for Haltemprice (Mr. Wall) and Plymouth, Devonport (Miss Vickers). Up to very recently it was commonly accepted in all parts of the House that the greatest danger to emerge in Africa was fragmentation and Balkanisation of the various countries. There were two ideas current at that time as to how the problem could best be coped with. Her Majesty's Government until comparatively recently leaned towards the view that the best way to prevent fragmentation was to pressurise the maximum degree of centralisation on the countries concerned and to resist, as far as possible, any tendencies towards tribalism or federalism appearing in the constitutions.
  It is now fair to say that there has been a change of understanding about this problem, one aspect of which has been manifested in the case of Uganda. Only a few years ago this Government on the advice of those on the spot were strongly recommending a strong central unitary form of Government for Uganda as being the only one which could possibly suit the country. Now we hear precisely the apposite, but I am glad that it is thought that a federal form of Government is best for that territory. I hope therefore, that when the other remaining African countries, such as Kenya, have

  59
  their constitutional future considered we shall not again have to learn the painful lessons we have learned in Uganda.
  The best way to prevent balkanisation in Africa, where tribalism is a reality, is to give to the various racial and tribal groupings—which had loyalties long before the colonial Powers appeared on the scene 60 or 70 years ago—sufficient grounds for believing that if they joined a central Government their own ways of life would be perpetuated, and that those groupings would not be under pressure to accept something they did not want. We are getting to the paradoxical position in East Africa that the more we allow federalism to develop the less chance there is of fragmentation taking place.
  In the context of my earlier remarks, Toro is a magnificent tribute to what can be done if there is good sense on all sides, an understanding that economics demand some form of central authority and, at the same time, that one cannot ride roughshod over strong feelings which, Whatever we may feel about them, do exist in the smaller African areas. For instance, were we not to permit a degree of autonomy to Toro and the other kingdoms, there would not be a chance of a united Uganda emerging to independence in October.
  I support what has been said by my two hon. Friends about Bunyoro. Some of us may regret that the Molson recommendations were not implemented, but I am realistic enough to appreciate that the day has passed when we could get a total reversal. Nevertheless, I cannot think why, if there is good faith, as I am sure there must be, on the part of Mr. Obote and the central Government, the suggestion made by my hon. Friends and myself that there should be a maximum time limit as well as a minimum one should not prove acceptable.
  Unless it is proposed to delay indefinitely, there is no possible reason —or, if there is, I do not know what it is, and I hope that my hon. Friend will enlighten me—why a period of years cannot be fixed. I have no quarrel with the declaration of a minimum of two years—it is probably a good idea to let things quieten down for a time—but a period of not more than three years may prove too short.
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  I am interested to discover whether my hon. Friend will tell me that he will insert in the Declaration an amendment making the maximum period four years, or even five. If I hear that, I shall be content, as, I believe, will be the people of Bunyoro. I do not see any great risk of constitutional difficulties preventing that being done. As I said when I started, if there is a real determination to have a plebiscite in a given period, what possible objection can there be to showing good faith to the world by putting in a maximum as well as a minimum period?
  4.54 p.m.
  Mrs. Eirene White: I must apologise for coming in for this debate so late, but I was delayed by public duties elsewhere. I shall speak only briefly, but I can hardly let this debate pass without saying a few words, as I have taken a great interest in Uganda over a very long time, and on more than one occasion have raised matters affecting it in this House.
  We all wish Uganda well, of course, though we all anticipate that it will not be one of the easiest countries to govern. Those who have taken an interest in Uganda's affairs over a period of years, recognise that there one has in a very acute form divisions caused by both tribal and religious differences, and one can only hope that the good sense and resilience of the people will be sufficient to see that the ship of state keeps afloat.
  I wish that there had been a rather longer period of internal self-government before complete independence was granted. It is regrettable, though understandable, that, because other countries in East Africa were gaining independence, like Tanganyika, one should have speeded up in Uganda the process towards independence to such a pace. Obviously, we all desire independence, but to have internal self-government in March and complete independence in October causes me some doubts.
  There has always been the argument —we have had it in certain other territories, and we may have it again in, for example, British Guiana—that if the point of complete independence is not reached, those persons concerned in the government of the territory will not bring themselves to face realities, but will all

  61
  the time be prepared to put some responsibility on Her Majesty's Government. I recognise the force of that argument, but March to October seems a very short period in which to put the full strain of responsibility of independence on persons who have had so little experience in the art of government.
  That is no derogation whatever of the ability of those concerned—I have great respect for Mr. Obote and his colleagues —but government is not so simple as all that, and some experience of it would have been advantageous. However, that is now history. It is not often that we on this side complain of the Government being in too much of a hurry, but I think that in this case they have been.
  I raised the very difficult and distressing problem of the dispute between Buganda and Bunyoro a number of years ago in the House. At that time one had the usual Government stalling —that nothing really could be done; that the time was not opportune, and all the other clichés one gets when raising such matters. As a result, that problem has been left as a very awkward legacy for the now Government. It has not been dealt with but, given more resolution and foresight on the part of Her Majesty's Government, it could have been dealt with in the past.
  It is monstrous to have two Commissions and then to leave things as they are. I should have thought that the import of the Molson Commission's Report was definite and sensible. The Commission made a very careful study on the spot. It is quite right, as the hon. Lady the Member for Devonport said, that the Munster Commission had other matters to consider and that this particular dispute was only one part of the study it had to make, but the Molson Commission had only that as its terms of reference, and I find it very difficult to appreciate why Her Majesty's Government would not take a somewhat stronger line. One can recognise that it will be very difficult for Mr. Obote supported, as he is, by the Kabaka's party to do other than take the view of Buganda on this but, as things are, we shuffle off the responsibility for sorting this matter out.
  I would assume that the Government's reason for not proposing to insert a final date for the referendum, but only a date
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  before which it shall not be held, is that they have some notion that the two counties should remain in perpetuity in charge of the central Government. If one is to have a date I should have thought that it would have been better to have it sooner rather than later, otherwise the people concerned will be left in a state of uncertainty, with the possibility of undesirable propaganda and intrigue occurring.
  A limit of three, four or even five years has been suggested, but to adopt that would be unwise. If a decision is to be arrived at, the sooner the date the better, unless one is really aiming at having the two territories not included in either kingdom but having them remain as a sort of "Danzig corridor" indefinitely. I do not desire to make matters difficult by commenting further. I think that the people of Bunyoro have had a raw deal in this matter. As the weaker territory, they could have looked for greater support from Her Majesty's Government and we, the British Government, are failing to accept our responsibilities for something which does not go back to the mists of history, but only to the time when British rule was first established in Uganda.
  We were parties, in the first instance, to this division. It is for that reason that we have a definite moral responsibility to see that the matter is sorted out before we give up any sort of trusteeship. I am deeply disappointed at the way this has turned out. I do not entirely blame the former Colonial Secretary for what has happened in the most recent negotiations, but I do blame the Administration in general for not having grasped this nettle more firmly earlier. We cannot now put right that omission of duty, but it would not be right if this Bill were passed without an expression of regret that this was not done.
  5.2 p.m.
  Mr. H. Fraser: I find on these occasions of independence that two of my most formidable critics are the two hon. Ladies the hon. Member for Flint, East (Mrs. White) and my hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Devonport (Miss Vickers). Before dealing with the wider questions that have been asked I will dwell on the matter of the dispute about the two counties.

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  The hon. Member for Dundee, East (Mr. G. M. Thomson) elaborated the case, which was further elaborated by other hon. Members, that this was a dereliction of duty on the part of Her Majesty's Government. They stated that we should have forced acceptance by the people of Uganda of the recommendations of the Molson Report. What stood out clearly from the speech of the hon. Member for Dundee, East, and from the Conference, was that neither Uganda nor Bunyoro was satisfied with our decision.
  Hon. Members have spoken of indecision on the part of the Government in this matter. If hon. Members really study the question they will see that a decision has been taken to take these two counties away and to put them under a neutral administration, the administration of the central Government. This decision was not well received by the Bunyoro delegation. It was equally ill received by the Buganda delegation and there has had to be a sacrifice by both sides.
  The hon. Member for Dundee, East talked of a Kashmir situation developing, but it is precisely to avoid such a situation arising that we have taken the two counties away from the two participants in the dispute and have put them under the control of the central Government. The hon. Member for Devonport suggested that in the Constitution a minimum or maximum period before which there must be a referendum should have been laid down. I would make two points on this matter. First, paragraph 98 of Lord Molson's Report states that the idea of having a referendum within a short while is not practicable on security grounds. Secondly, when a country goes independent it really does go independent. Independence means independence and decisions as to when things like referendums should be held must be taken by the Government concerned.
  The person or body to "carry the can" and to deal with this problem is the central independent Government of Uganda. I am sorry if I appear to be getting slightly vexed over this, but occasionally the tone of some hon. Members' speeches seems to suggest that when a country goes independent we still have some residual responsibility by which
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  we can exercise control. That is not what independence means.
  Mr. G. M. Thomson: The hon. Gentleman is saying with some heat that decisions as to when a referendum shall or shall not be held must be left to the independent Government concerned. In this case, however, Her Majesty's Government are a party to the referendum on the question of when it shall not be held. Why should not the Government be an equal party, before surrendering their responsibilities, and create a time limit at the other end?
  Mr. Fraser: Because it is clear that if a referendum cannot be held now the time when it shall be held must be the decision of the central Government of Uganda. This is clear and necessary. It is the central Government which must deal with these matters. It is those who are responsible for running an independent territory who must decide on these matters. In fact, we have laid it down that when the central Assembly so decides, a referendum shall be held. I do not think that it is possible to ask Her Majesty's Government or the central Government of Uganda to go further at this stage, and on this I have the full support of the right hon. Member for West Bromwich (Mr. Dugdale).
  Mr. Norman Pannell: Is it a fact that Her Majesty's Government have stipulated that a referendum shall not take place within two years?
  Mr. Fraser: Yes, but this has been stipulated with the agreement of the central Government and also on the ground that it would be improper and unlikely that there could be a peaceful referendum until there have been two years of orderly, independent government in these two counties.
  The right hon. Member for West Bromwich and others raised the question of commodity price stabilisation. It should be remembered that at a time of falling markets this is a difficult thing to attain. Since the 1950s there have been arrangements by which the Uganda Government have put aside the money obtained from high cotton and coffee prices to meet these difficulties. But, alas, these funds are nearly exhausted. I agree that not only the British Government but Governments generally should

  65
  now consider this problem. Stabilising world commodity prices is not an easy matter. It is difficult enough when prices are rising, let alone in other circumstances. It is indeed a challenge to the West to see how we can cope with this problem.
  When my right hon. Friend who has just ceased to be Colonial Secretary made his first speech in that office he referred even then to this problem. As Chancellor of the Exchequer he will now be in a better position to do something about it, and equally about the points raised in connection with the C.D.C. The House must know my views on this subject. They persist.
  Regarding terminal obligations, as the House knows, there was a statement last March setting out what Her Majesty's Government could do. If my memory does not fail me, it was stated that a settlement of about £14 million was agreed with the Uganda Government. We hope, too, that, after independence, a technical assistance agreement will be negotiated.
  One other point was raised by hon. Members on both sides of the House— the question of the European expatriate civil servants. As hon. Members may know, a compensation scheme was introduced in March, 1962. One hon. Member referred to the adverse effect which past events in Tanganyika may have had on some of the civil servants in Uganda. Of course, such an adverse effect is to be deplored. The reports available at the end of May showed that slightly more than one-third of those concerned had given notice of their intention to retire, which, considering the problems involved, is not too bad.
  I would draw the attention of the House to Mr. Obote's statement. He gave a solemn promise to all those in the service that their conditions of service would not be altered, adding that expatriates who decided to stay on would not be merely tolerated but would be most welcome. That is a statement which I know will give pleasure to the whole House.
  In conclusion, I wish to apologise if I have not been able to meet my hon. Friends and the hon. Lady the Member for Flint, East on the question of the
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  lost counties. All will have been impressed by the burning pursuit of justice which is so rightly undertaken by hon. Members. Governments, alas, have to decide not on the question of expediency but on what is the course which will benefit the greatest number. I believe that had we taken the choice either of leaving matters as they were in the lost counties or of handing them over to Bunyono we should have been faced with the grave risk of civil war. Looking back at the history of Buganda, this is the one thing that we must seek to avoid.
  The decision of the Secretary of State, which cannot be changed by alterations in the Bill and which met with neither the support of Bunyoro nor of Buganda, was a judgment, if not of a Solomon, then of a wise and courageous man and is, I think, the best thing we can do. We must leave it to the people of Uganda, with the good wishes of the House of Commons, to work out their own, I trust, successful, destiny.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Bill accordingly read a Second time.
  Bill committed to a Committee of the whole House.—[Mr. M. Hamilton.]
  Committee Tomorrow.

  UGANDA INDEPENDENCE [MONEY]
  [Queen's Recommendation signified.]
  Considered in Committee under Standing Order No. 84 (Money Committees).
  [Sir WILLIAM ANSTRUTHER-GRAY in the Chair]
  Resolved,
  That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to make provision for, and in connection with, the attainment by Uganda of fully responsible status within the Commonwealth, it is expedient to authorise the issue out of the Consolidated Fund, the raising by the Treasury, or the payment into the Exchequer, of such sums as may be required to be so issued or paid, or as the Treasury may think fit to raise, as the case may be, in consequence of providing that, for the purposes of the making of loans to the East African Common Services Organisation, and in relation to loans made at any time to that organisation, section two of the Colonial Development and Welfare Act, 1959, shall have effect, on and after the date

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  appointed by the said Act of the present Session, as if Uganda had not ceased to be a colony within the meaning of the said Act of 1959.—[Mr. H. Fraser.]
  Resolution to be reported.
  Report to be received Tomorrow.

  BUILDING SOCIETIES BILL [Lords]
  Considered in Committee; reported, without Amendment; read the Third. time and passed, without Amendment.
  TOWN AND COUNTR PLANNING BILL [Lords]
  Considered in Committee; reported, without Amendment; read the Third time and passed, without Amendment.

  EDUCATION (SCOTLAND) BILL [Lords]
  Read a Second time.
  Bill committed to a Committee of the whole House.—[Mr. Hughes-Young.]
  Committee Tomorrow.

  SEA FISHERIES
  5.18 p.m.
  The Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Mr. Christopher Soames): I beg to move,
  That the White Fish Industry (Grants for Fishing Vessels and Engines) Scheme, 1962, dated 4th July, 1962, a copy of which was laid before this House on 4th July, be approved.
  As this Scheme and the corresponding Scheme for the hearing industry are very similar to each other, I suggest that it would be convenient to the House to deal with the two together.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Sir William Anstruther-Gray): I think that that would be so.
  Mr. Soames: As there axe other fishery Schemes and Orders to be con-sidered la-tar, I will not take up more of the time of the House than I need, but these are new Schemes which require some explanation. These Schemes, like the Schemes now in operation, make provision for grants by the White Fish Authority and the Herring Industry Board towards the cost of acquiring
  68
  new fishing vessels and engines. The Sea Fish Industry Act, 1962, authorises us to continue to make such Schemes for a further ten years. The main purpose of these Schemes is, therefore, to extend the assistance which would otherwise have expired under the old legislation. In other words, we needed new Schemes to fulfil this purpose.
  The new Schemes make some important changes and I should like to say a word or two about these and why they are being made. Under this new Act grants can be made for distant water vessels and the limitation, which was imposed under previous Schemes, that grants could be given only for vessels up to 140 ft. in length, has, therefore, been removed. This is the first big difference. Then the Act has made it possible to remove the distinction which had hitherto been applied between working and non-working owners of inshore vessels, a distinction which led to difficulties and which we no longer think is justified. Up to now, under the old scheme, non-working owners have been able to get grants of only 25 per cent. for vessels instead of the 30 per cent. allowed to working owners, and this distinction, together with their not being able to get grants for engines, is now dropped. Non-working owners will be eligible in the same way as working owners.
  The maximum amounts of grant have also been revised. New vessels under 80 ft. in length will still get a 30 per cent. grant but subject now to a higher maximum of £13,000—it was £5,000 before— and engines for such vessels up to a maximum of £2,500, which was £1,250 before. For vessels over 80 ft. in length—and this includes the ones over 140 ft. as well—grants of 25 per cent. will be available but up to a maximum of £50,000 instead of £37,500 as hitherto.
  Another change made in the Scheme is that the period during which grants might become repayable if the conditions of the Scheme are broken has been reduced. This control period was 10 years under the 1953 Scheme but for vessels of 116 ft. in length or over under the 1955 Scheme it was increased to 20 years. The reason for this was to prolong the restrictions on voyages in the distant waters by these vessels, but since there

  69
  will be no such restrictions on vessels which will be built under this Scheme, there is no need to continue the control period for as long as 20 years and we are putting it back to the original 10 years.
  The control period for engines is also being cut from 10 years to five years to relate it more closely to the actual life of the engine for which the grant is given. While on the subject of these restrictions I would add that the restrictions which at present apply to vessels built under the 1953 and 1955 Schemes are being dealt with under Section 31 of the new Act, not under these Schemes. Where these Schemes are concerned, vessels built under them will not have the restriction placed on them at the commencement of their life, as did those built under the old Schemes.
  The present Schemes differ from their predecessors in that we have dropped the condition that applications can be entertained only in respect of vessels and engines built or to be built in the United Kingdom. This is, of course, the most controversial aspect, if not the only controversial aspect of these Schemes.
  The basic purpose of these grants is to help the fishing industry to equip itself. This implies that owners should be able to buy the vessels that they need from the most efficient yards at the most favourable prices wherever these might be found. The question that the Government had to decide in making a new Scheme under the new Act was whether it would be right to write into the Scheme what was in the old one, a requirement to build only in home yards to get a grant or loan, which is plainly contrary to our international obligations. From the point of view of the fishing industry, which the Scheme is designed to help, there was clearly no case for it, and in relation to our international obligations, which are quite definite, we were going to put ourselves at a considerable disadvantage in arguing, as we often have to do, against discriminatory practices abroad if we were blatantly to prescribe one ourselves. This was highlighted when it came to the point of having to put in a new Scheme under the new Act.
  As regards the trawler-building section of the shipbuilding industry, it will from now on be in the same competitive posi-
  70
  tion vis-à-vis, the trawler-building industry abroad as will the rest of the shipbuilding industry vis-à-vis, its competitors abroad. But it is not actually along these lines that the real criticism has come. There was real anxiety on two points. First, that the British trawler-building yards should have an opportunity of competing, and, secondly, that the competition should be on fair terms. I hope to be able to satisfy the House on both these points.
  On the first point, the White Fish Authority will be directed to administer the Scheme in such a way that when an application is received for building a vessel abroad, the applicant will be required to obtain not less than three tenders from British yards, and the tenders will be based on the same specification. If any of the British tenders are lower than the foreign tenders, but the applicant still decides to build abroad, the grant will be related only to the amount of the British tender and no more.
  On the second point of fair competition, what has worried hon. Members is that we should not grant aid orders placed with foreign yards which are subsidised by their own Governments. Let me assure the House that it is OUT firm intention to administer the Scheme so as to ensure, as far as is humanly possible, that grants are not given for boats built abroad in yards which can be shown to be in receipt of a material element of subsidy. This will be done by the White Fish Authority referring to Departments any proposal where they consider that on the basis of the tenders there is a good case for a grant to be given to a vessel which is to be built in a foreign yard. If the Ministry of Transport from the information available is satisfied that the foreign yard in question is receiving a material element of subsidy, the White Fish Authority will be so informed and will then tell the applicant that no grant will be given if he decides to go ahead with building the vessel in that foreign yard.
  The points that I want to make to the House are that in our view it would have been wrong for the Government to have brought in a new Scheme which was in blatant contradiction to our international obligations, but that, on the other hand, we were determined to see

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  that we built safeguards into the way in which the Scheme will be operating, so that British yards will have the fullest opportunity to compete on fair terms. I believe that the Government's decision was perfectly justified and that the safeguards that we have included will ensure that what has been done in the interests of the fishing industry and within the framework of our international obligations will not prove to be detrimental to our shipbuilding industry. I trust that the House will give its approval to both Schemes.
  5.30 p.m.
  Mr. James H. Hoy: We are grateful to the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food for his explanation of this Scheme. We had some little doubt about who would give the explanation and we are pleased to see the right hon. Gentleman with us.
  At the outset, I apologise for the non-attendance of my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Aberdeen, North (Mr. Hector Hughes), who is usually with us when we debate these matters. I am certain the House will be sorry to hear that he suffered a very sad bereavement during the weekend, and it is that which prevents him being with us.
  This Scheme, in the main, changes the periods of time and the sums involved in previous Schemes, but, as the Minister said, it goes much further. The duration for repayment was determined by the change in the fishing grants, and because of the effect that this is having on a section of our fishing industry the Government have decided that there will be no limit on the number of sailings that will take place to grounds previously prohibited to the class of vessel covered by this Scheme.
  We are concerned today with the proposal in this Scheme which will give to foreign shipyards subsidies previously reserved for shipyards in this country. We have many objections to this proposal. One objection is that this is the first time that this House has had an opportunity to discuss it. Secondly, we do not have freedom to amend this provision. Either we accept the Scheme as it stands, containing this provision, or we reject it, and by so doing we would
  72
  fail to provide fox ships built in this country. This puts the House of Commons in a very awkward position.
  We are bound to express our feelings in this matter, because we had long discussions on the Measure out of which this Scheme arises and during the course of those proceedings the Government never once hinted that this alteration would take place. Indeed, in another place this proposal was rejected. The Government were incensed about this because, if the proposal had been allowed to stand, it would have come back to this House for discussion, but to prevent that happening the Government moved an Amendment to delete that proposal, restoring the Bill to its original state and depriving the House of Commons of the right to discuss this specific issue. We believed it to be a bit of sharp practice, and we still believe that to be the case.
  We resented the fact that we in this House would be deprived of any opportunity of discussing the matter. We have been told that this will put British shipyards in line with foreign shipyards in the matter of competing for other classes of vessels. But the Minister has got the argument the wrong way round. Up to the present our shipyards have had the advantage of this subsidy. It is now proposed to take that advantage away from our shipyards and give it to the foreign shipyards, placing the foreign shipyards on the same basis as British shipyards for vessels built under this Scheme. That ought to be clearly understood; otherwise we shall get into difficulties in discussing this Scheme.
  The Minister has argued that the Government have done this in order to conform to international agreements, and I am certain that he had in mind E.F.T.A. and G.A.T.T. But this is not so. The Secretary of State—I refer to the departed Secretary of State, not the present one—took part in a debate in this House on 8th June and made it perfectly clear that this alteration had not come about because of any representations by the owners or G.A.T.T. or E.F.T.A. Let me quote from his speech on 8th June. He said:
  "It is true that, as yet, there has been no formal complaint against us under either the G.A.T.T. or the E.F.T.A. Convention in regard

  73
  to this matter."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 8th June, 1962; Vol. 661, c. 851.]
  Therefore, if the Minister seeks to found his case on these two conventions, I point out to him that neither G.A.T.T. nor E.F.T.A. made any such request to him. His case, so far as those two conventions are concerned, goes by the board.
  These regulations have been in existence for many years. They were not produced merely a year or eighteen months ago. It is under these regulations that all this rebuilding of shipping is taking place, and without any complaint at all. What we wanted to know on 8th June, as a result of a Question which was put on the Order Paper, was who had complained against these regulations. The Secretary of State had to confess that he had received no specific complaint at all. All that the Minister has done this afternoon is to argue that it might have been possible to complain. I was on the point of calling him the Secretary of State. Of course, we do not know what he will be in an hour's time, but let me call him the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food for the time being. The Minister has argued his case from the point of view that there has been some complaint from E.F.T.A. or G.A.T.T. and I am pointing out that there has been no such complaint at all.
  The Minister said that, having agreed to do this, we ought to draft some rules so that the British shipbuilder would have a fair deal. He proposes to take three tenders from British yards and one from a foreign yard. Then he proposes to do something which he has been complaining about. He says that if we are going to conform to the E.F.T.A. and G.A.T.T. conventions it has got to be done on an equal footing. But he has just announced that we are going to differentiate between the countries. He says that we are going to tell the owner who orders a vessel that if he decides to take the vessel from a foreign shipyard and the price is greater than the British shipyard tenders, the White Fish Authority will differentiate and will say, "If you order from this foreign yard, you will be paid a subsidy less than the lowest British tender."
  In fact, he is going to base his proportion of the subsidy on a price lower than would have been obtained by the
  74
  foreign shipbuilder if he had been successful. In other words, he is going to ignore the difference between the foreign tender and the British tender. It is not to be taken into consideration at all. Here is a differentiation that the Minister himself proposes to institute by his present proposal. This cannot be regarded as equal tendering. He himself is breaking the law, and breaking the agreement with G.A.T.T. and E.F.T.A.
  I and my hon. Friends have opposed this proposal because at present one cannot say that British shipyards are so busy that they cannot cope with orders of this kind. But we find ourselves in a difficulty that if we reject the Scheme we are making it impossible for the grants and loans to be made to any trawler owner in the country. We think that the Government's proposal is iniquitous. We can only console ourselves with the thought this is a mere tampering with the fishing industry and that if we take all these Schemes together there is no solution. Perhaps our greatest consolation, in view of the present turmoil, is that we shall not have to put up with this Government much longer.
  5.41 p.m.
  Mr. G. R. Howard: I hope that the House will forgive me for a rather inadequate voice. I speak on this Scheme only to ask the Minister to con-sider two short points. It has been said in relation to the grants that is it the Government's intention to make the fishing industry look for new grounds and go in for new methods of research in view of the troubles in Iceland, the Faroes and other places. The industry is only too ready to do this, but it considers that an unfair burden is imposed on the companies concerned in having to go in for some new experimental type of vessel and that the grants might therefore be increased. If such a vessel is being built, the Government could make things easier for the industry if they said that where there was a revolutionary type of vessel the industry would be given a slightly larger grant.
  It is not in order now to go into the pros and cons of fishery protection, though I hope to be doing so later on. I would call attention, however, to the fact that the Cornwall Sea Fisheries Committee has built its own protection

  75
  vessel, and I would ask whether the Government could consider extending grants to the building of protection vessels by the fishery committees themselves.
  5.43 p.m.
  Mr. Douglas Marshall: I have great sympathy with what the hon. Member for Edinburgh, Leith (Mr. Hoy) said about the dilemma in which we are placed, in that we have to accept or reject the Scheme and there is no means by which we can amend it. Like the hon. Member, I was extremely anxious when we first heard of this new departure in the payment of subsidy to a vessel built in a foreign yard, but I was somewhat relieved by what my right hon. Friend had to say today about the safeguards which have been devised for the administration of the Scheme. I gather from my right hon. Friend's statement that it is difficult to see how these vessels will be built abroad in future.
  The prime reason for my speaking to the Scheme is that I should like my right hon. Friend, or whoever replies to the debate, to clear up one point. My right hon. Friend said that the White Fish Authority will look at each transaction and will take into consideration any material element of subsidy which it may discover in any foreign yard when the three British yards have submitted their quotations and the price asked by the foreign yard is less. My point is not about the question of direct physical subsidy by the sovereign State to the foreign yard but whether it will be considered by the British Government as a direct subsidy if in future the position which arose in Germany, as implemented by Dr. Schacht, occurs again.
  This is the position where there is a blocked currency and certain facilities are provided whereby that currency can be used to have a vessel built in a certain yard. In practice, nothing could be a greater subsidy than that. This was why a great deal of business flowed into the yards at Hamburg whan Dr. Schacht introduced it in the Reichstag by promoting the Sperrmark. I want to feel satisfied that if there were such circumstances this would be considered by the White Fish Authority and by the Ministry as a definite subsidy to the yard.
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  I should also like to echo what the hon. Member for Leith said about the hon. and learned Member for Aberdeen, North (Mr. Hector Hughes). I am sure that the whole House very much regrets that one more difficulty has confronted the hon. and learned Member, for whom so many of us have very sincere affection.
  5.48 p.m.
  Mr. George Jeger: These Schemes are the result of a Measure which we have spent so much time in discussing during the last seven months. Perhaps the Minister now realises that the surreptitious way in which he brought forward the contentious proposal of subsidies to vessels built in foreign shipyards was a mistake on his part. I know that he and his ex-colleague, the Secretary of State for Scotland up till a short time ago, tried to justify it by reference to our international obligations. In the rather curtailed debate which we had on the subject we heard an explanation to that effect from the former Secretary of State.
  But we have still been left without a satisfactory explanation why the proposal was announced to the House on a Friday by means of a Written Answer to a Question when there was no opportunity for us to probe the matter by means of supplementary questions. It has been left until now for us to receive from the right hon. Gentleman information about the safeguards which he says have been worked out to maintain the productivity of British shipyards in the face of foreign competition. I do not think that the right hon. Gentleman has treated the House at all fairly. We are entitled to know more about it.
  Mr. Soames: I should like to make one point clear. It was on 18th May that I announced this in a Written Answer to a Question. The timing of that was in order to tell the House as soon as possible before anything leaked out, because consultations had had to take place beforehand. I was very well aware that Oral Questions to me at Question Time would not be reached in the immediate future. In fact, after 18th May, Questions to me for Oral Answer were not reached until 2nd July. Had I waited until then it would have been much too late to inform the House. It is quite a natural way to give by this method an outline to the House of what

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  is decided, and then the House is the right and proper place to have a debate upon it. I was anxious to give the House as long a notice as possible about it.
  Mr. Jeger: With all respect to the right hon. Gentleman and his intentions, that is not really satisfactory. It so happened that, on the day before that, there was the Second Reading in another place. The announcement which appeared on the Friday could have been made in another place on the day before. There could not have been all that importance in its being held over for one day. Furthermore, as the right hon. Gentleman knows—he has been on the Front Bench long enough, perhaps too long—the following Monday after the Friday when he made his announcement was his day for replying to Questions in the normal way.
  I am quite sure that Mr. Speaker would not have objected if the right hon. Gentleman had asked permission to answer a Question which was so lowly placed on the Order Paper that it would not be reached in the ordinary course. This has been done many times. Ministers have asked permission to make statements in reply to Questions not reached because they wanted to give the House the fullest possible information.
  It is quite obvious that the right hon. Gentleman did not want to give the House full information. He wanted to slide the thing through by means of a surreptitious Written Answer to a Question on the Friday so that the matter would go through without being subjected to any question from either side of the House. There are many hon. Members on both sides who have been uneasy about this, as the Minister must be well aware. However, I do not wish to pursue it further. The Minister knows out view about it. He knows that he has acted very badly. Although he has been trying his best to remedy the situation, he has not succeeded very well.
  The terms and conditions which the Minister read out seem to me to be satisfactory. They seem to help to put the matter in a better way than appeared when it was first outlined to us, but I want to know whether those terms and conditions emanated only from his own Department and the Scottish Office or ware formulated in consultation and
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  agreement with the shipping interests in this country.
  After the storm broke over the original announcement, we were told that the shipping interests had had an interview with the right hon. Gentleman and the Minister of Transport and that they had gone away partly satisfied at the sympathetic response which they had received. I want to know whether the terms and conditions which the Minister read out today are the result of those consultations and the shipping interests are satisfied with them, or whether they are only the result of his own fruitful mind and are being foisted upon the shipping industry without agreement.
  5.53 p.m.
  Lady Tweedsmuir: I apologise to you, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, and to the House for not being in my place at the start of the debate. I was unavoidably delayed.
  At the outset, I associate myself with all hon. Members who have expressed sympathy with the hon. and learned Member for Aberdeen, North (Mr. Hector Hughes) in his recent bereavement. The hon. and learned Gentleman has had a very rough time lately. We can only hope that it is of some comfort to him to know that hon. Members on both sides of the House are thinking of him at this difficult time.
  I do not intend to go again over all the arguments which were used during the Adjournment debate on the question whether these grants and loans should be extended to vessels built in foreign yards. Since that time, I have done my best to pursue the matter by Question to try to clarify some of the points which did not seem at all clear. I feel no happier about the matter now than I did at the beginning. I was not at all happy about the way the matter was introduced, but, above all, I do not consider that any clear or satisfactory explanation has been given to the House of why, at this moment, the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade suddenly appeared to be so very important.
  Since the end of the war, we have had many white fish and herring industry Bills before the House. The excuse given has been that, because this is a new Measure, now an Act, we could not continue the same arrangements having

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  regard to our obligations under the G.A.T.T. As I understood it, the reason always given hitherto for why we made no change was balance of payments difficulties, not our obligations under the G.A.T.T. I should have thought that this, of all times, was not the time suddenly to imply that the balance of payments difficulty is entirely remedied.
  As regards the safeguards, I understand from some of the shipping interests in the Port of Aberdeen that people are a good deal happier about the arrangements since the consultations with the Ministry of Transport, but one has to remember that these consultations came not before but after the announcement. This still does not meet the point of principle that, while no one objects to a British owner building abroad if he wishes to do so in order to obtain specialised gear or new skills, people feel very strongly about an owner being virtually encouraged to do so with the British taxpayers' money.
  This encouragement is being given at a time when the British shipbuilding industry is in acute difficulty. Had this arrangement been made at a time when owners have to wait two or three years to place orders in yards in this country because they were full, one might, perhaps, have thought rather differently about it. Even so, I still feel that the subsidy arrangements should, in the end, be directed to ships being built in this country.
  We have not even tried to apply for a waiver under the G.A.T.T. It is a fact that the Canadians subsidise their shipping to the tune of 40 per cent. and the Australians do it to the tune of 33 per cent. So far as I am aware, it is not intended to make any formal protest under the G.A.T.T. that these Common-wealth countries are making these subsidies available for ships built in our yards; nor do I suggest that we should do so. But I do feel that it will be extremely difficult to find out what are comparable rates of subsidy in the countries concerned.
  When there was an inquiry into ship-building practices a little time ago, it was said that it was almost impossible to assess what were called comparable degrees of subsidy when one took into
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  account hidden tax turnovers or other financial arrangements which might exist in other yards. I do not think that we have been given a satisfactory explanation.
  Mr. Soames: It is not a question of whether it is comparable or not comparable as an element of subsidy. The question is whether there is any material element of subsidy, in other words, any visible and outward element, something one can judge as an element of subsidy. It is not a question of making difficult comparisons in the degree of subsidy as between one country and another. The question is whether there is a material element of subsidy in the country which has submitted the tender. This is the matter for judgment, and the difficulty of judging comparability of subsidy— this is not really our subject in agriculture and fisheries, but I am sure that it must be difficult—really does not come into this matter.
  Lady Tweedsmuir: I hope that the Minister who is to reply to the debate will explain how one will assess what is material. What is a material element of subsidy? Who is to decide what is material and what is not? I hope that the word "material" will be defined when the reply is given.
  It has been known for very long, ever since the end of the war, that we had these obligations under the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade. Why was not an announcement made to the House when the Sea Fish Industry Bill was first put before Parliament? If the reason for this change is that it had to be made under a new Bill, we should have known about it at the start of the Bill instead of just before it was about to receive the Royal Assent. That being so, I still remain profoundly unsatisfied.
  Since we are talking about general agreements on tariffs and trade, I hope that the Minister will start negotiating with the European Economic Community about the fishing industry. In answer to a Question which I tabled the other day, I was told by my right hon. Friend the Lord Privy Seal that negotiations on this subject had not yet begun. Perhaps my right hon. Friend, when he winds up, will give us some idea of what will happen under this heading.
  6.0 p.m.
  Mr. E. G. Willis: In spite of what the Minister may say, it is clear that the way in which this matter was handled was quite disgraceful and not worthy of a Government which had the courage to face up to what they believed. Obviously the Government tried to manœuvre this through in an underhand fashion, hoping to escape criticism which might come from various quarters. In other words, it was a cowardly thing to do and was not worthy of a Government which could call themselves a Government. I am beginning to think that this Government could not call themselves a Government. Even the Prime Minister thinks that, and he is trying to rectify the situation at the moment, I understand.
  I agree with the hon. Lady the Member for Aberdeen, South (Lady Tweeds-muir) that we are not satisfied about this matter. We must ask ourselves what injury will be done to the shipbuilding industry as a result of the proposal to subsidise ships built in foreign yards. I do not know what estimate is made of that, but if it is in any way substantial, then what the hon. Lady said was right and the Government should have applied for a waiver. I understand that this is a common thing to do and that it is a safeguarding provision in most international agreements. Even countries in the Common Market can apply for a waiver in respect of certain things which are likely to have serious repercussions on certain industries in those countries.
  This proposal will have a serious effect on some of the smaller shipbuilding firms. We should bear in mind that most of the shipbuilders affected by this proposal are situated in the smaller ports. Therefore, we are doing injury to districts least able to bear it. If the burden falls on larger firms situated in larger ports, obviously its effect is not as great as it is a smaller industry based in a smaller port. This proposal will have a certain significance, particularly in Scotland, as the Undersecretary of State knows. I do not know whether he is still Under-Secretary of State, but for the moment I shall assume that he is. It is obvious that there will be considerable concern about this proposal.
  A number of the smaller ports and smaller yards are situated in districts,
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  particularly in Scotland, where there is already high unemployment and which tend to lose their populations. In these circumstances, the Government should have thought very much more seriously than apparently they did before agreeing to this proposal and before deciding not to apply for a waiver. They could not have thought very seriously about it if they did not consult the interests concerned prior to taking the action. Any Government should find out what will be the effect before taking action. In Scotland, the effect could be very harmful to an economy which is already struggling to recover from blow after blow delivered by the Government.
  For these reasons, I remain most dissatisfied with this proposal. If it were possible to vote against it without voting against the general scheme of grants for vessels and engines, I should do so, but, as has been said, this is not possible. If we did vote against it, we should be voting against the fishing industry and against the legitimate subsidies to which it is entitled to enable it to face the problems of the future. Like my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh, Leith (Mr. Hoy), I register my vigorous protest against the Government's action.
  6.6 p.m.
  Sir John Gilmour: I understand that when this Scheme of grants and loans began there were in Scotland thirty-five yards able to build boats under them. The number of these yards has now been reduced to nineteen because of the contraction of the industry. It is against that background that those engaged in the shipbuilding industry look at these proposals.
  While I appreciate the difficulties in which my right hon. Friends find themselves in keeping faith with their international obligations, it is true that we are very busy at the moment trying to formulate new agricultural subsidy schemes which might be applicable if we joined the Common Market. Surely there would be opportunities to apply ourselves in exactly the same way in respect of the fishing industry.
  If I heard my right hon. Friend aright, he said that if comparable tenders from English yards and from foreign yards are obtained and one of the British tenders is the lowest, the subsidy would

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  still be paid to a foreign yard on the basis of the lowest English tender. That seems to me to be an odd arrangement. If the tenders are comparable and if the boats which it is proposed to build are similar, why should British taxpayers' money go to the foreign yard, for some obscure reason? Perhaps I misheard what my right hon. Friend said, but I should like to be enlightened on that point. While we can welcome almost all the provisions in this Scheme, it is very difficult, in the present economic circumstances of the country, to see that it is right for us to make our money available to foreign shipbuilders.
  6.8 p.m.
  Dame Irene Ward: Like my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen, South (Lady Tweedsmuir), I apologise to my right hon. Friend the Minister for not being here at the beginning of his statement. I hope that he will accept my apology.
  I, too, wish to comment on the way that this matter has been handled. I hope that my right hon. Friend will forgive me if I point out that I know that he has not always been Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, but for a long time we have found ourselves in some difficulty when discussing fishing interests. We have discussed them in the middle of the night. It took many very firm representations to get a debate at an appropriate time of day.
  We never seem able to get from my right hon. Friend's Department the interests of the industry stated in terms which give one any confidence that fishing is considered just as important as agriculture in his Department. That is why I feel extremely perturbed.
  I want to follow one or two of the points which have been raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen, South. I want to know whether both the shipping interests and the British Trawlers' Federation had got agreement with my right hon. Friend before the statement was made in that most unsatisfactory way on Friday, 18th May. I do not think that the British Trawlers' Federation had tied up the points to make the position satisfactory to them. I should like to know whether they are satisfied.
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  My right hon. Friend worsened his position when he jumped in to answer my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen, South about the position of material or comparable subsidies. Had he left the matter where it was, he would have been in a much better position at the end of what he had to say.
  The difficulty over this whole matter always comes from the fact that we never seem to have the right Minister at the right moment. Ministers shuffle about and when one wants to make remarks concerning subsidies to ship-buiilding yards abroad compared with this country—a matter which is pertinent to the Scheme—one has to deal with the Minister of Agriculture, who really does not know much about shipbuilding or its problems.
  Mr. Jeger: On a point of order. Is the hon. Lady correct in referring to the shuffling about of Ministers under this Scheme? Should it not come under the Order dealing with salmon and migratory trout?
  Dame Irene Ward: The House always enjoys a Parliamentary joke. I am serious on this matter, and when I use the word "shuffle" I am talking not about the present shuffle but about the problems we have to face in our indus-itry, which seems to be divided between two Ministers. It always seems to be the wrong Minister who comes to answer the points.
  I do not think that my right hon. Friend's answer about material and comparable subsidies was at all a good one. When my right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport decided to have an investigation into shipbuilding and the reason for our losing orders, he appointed a distinguished body of chartered accountants to look into the matter. If I remember aright, when they reported my right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport came to the conclusion that in the case of subsidies, tax reliefs, or whatever they were, it was not possible to get to the bottom of what was happening abroad.
  It did not matter whether the word "material" or "comparable" was used. The fact was that there was no answer to the investigations that my right hon. Friend had ordered. I do not mind which of the two words it is. What I

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  want to know is how we are to know whether we are on equal terms in the tenders that are submitted. I do not know whether my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food would like to send for his right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport to give his version of this, but it is an extremely important matter.
  When a situation such as we are discussing today arises, I always become very suspicious. It seems to me most extraordinary that, suddenly, G.A.T.T. and our obligations under it are blown up into an enormous balloon when nobody has mentioned them before. I have a shrewd suspicion that prÒbably the Foreign Office—here is another Government Department coming into the matter—has felt that unless we get ourselves, if we can, into an absolutely sound position so that we cannot be challenged, it will be difficult for us when we discuss the position of the fishing industry in the European Common Market. That is my explanation of why, suddenly, my right hon. Friend 'has come forward with the reason for producing this new Scheme and the terms that will be imposed in connection with grants and loans.
  That emphasises once more what my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen, South said. As far as I can make out, we have not approached the matter of fishing in the context of the Common Market. One cannot expect the fishing industry to feel any great confidence in any Minister—I include the whole lot— unless we know that its interests are just as much in the minds of our Ministers as agriculture and other matters which have a great deal more steam behind them in the country than (hose of us who try to represent the fishing interests.
  It must be clear to everybody that the future of the fishing industry as a whole is under great threat from all sorts of interests. I hope, therefore, that when my right hon. Friend replies to the debate he will let me and the House know specifically at what stage those who are entitled to be consulted were consulted, on what date they agreed that the action which my right hon. Friend has implied by the Scheme satisfied them, and whether they have any outstanding questions which they want settled. I should also like to know whether the
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  shipbuilding interests feel that with this Soheme their interests are being safeguarded.
  Will my right hon. Friend make a note —and put it in the file of the Department in case he does not stay there very 'long—that in future it would be more helpful to those of us who are interested in the fishing industry if the Department appeared to give greater consideration to those who have to earn their livelihood toy the industry? It is obvious that those people feel that agriculture is of greater interest to Parliament; that it carries a great deal more implications and problems I fully realise. We have the right to expect, however, that if it is the decision of any Government to add fisheries to the responsibility of the Minister of Agrioulture, we are entitled to have as much consideration and interest given to our problems and difficulties as to agrioulture. It is on this aspect that I feel most strongly.
  Whenever I have attended a fishing debate, nearly everybody has been unanimous and united against the Minister. It always happens that way. Perhaps my right hon. Friend can answer my questions specifically and in future, please, let us have a little more attention directed to this very important industry.
  6.19 p.m.
  Mr. J. M. L. Prior: I do not know whether my hon. Friend the Member for Tynemouth (Dame Irene Ward) was entirely fair when making a comparison between the time devoted in this House to agriculture and fisheries. One of the most striking facts that I have noticed since coming into the House is 'the time that the fishing industry occupies on the Floor of the House.
  Dame Irene Ward: My hon. Friend has not been here very long.
  Mr. Prior: When I think of the time occupied by agriculture during the past year and compare it with the time occupied by fishing, I might be justified, speaking as a farmer, in saying that agriculture has not had enough consideration and that fishing has had too much. I make no bones about saying this, 'because I am certain that it will not be misunderstood by my friends in the fishing industry, who often tell me that they

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  are amazed by the amount of time that we devote to the fishing industry.
  This debate today has really nothing to do with the fishing industry at all but is really much more concerned with the shipbuilding industry. I want to try if I can to prick this balloon my hon. Friend talks about as being blown up. I want to try to prick it because I think we have got to get this in the right proportions, and this, to me, is a comparatively small matter.
  In the last few years a large number of ships have been built under the grants and loans Scheme for trawlers of under 140 ft. in length. No trawlers over 140 ft. in length have incurred a grant or loan. They are now eligible under this Scheme for the first time. Since the war, 70 vessels of over 140 ft. have been built, incurring no subsidy, and out of those 63 have been built at home and seven have been built abroad. One of those built abroad was the "Lord Nelson", and it was built abroad for the specific reason that no British shipyard was capable of building at that time a stern trawler. I do not think this reflects very well on the management of British shipyards.
  Under this Scheme, we shall be allowing vessels of over 140 ft. to be built and also the continuation of the Scheme for vessels of under 140 ft., and I think we have to be frank: there will not be many more vessels of under 140 ft., from 80 ft. to 120 ft., built under the Scheme. Already the White Fish Authority has stopped building them at Lowestoft and Aberdeen. I think it is probably now doing the same in other ports as well. The fact is that the middle-water and the near-water fleet is not going to increase in size, and any building which goes on will be extremely limited. Therefore, to say that we are going to deny our shipyards the right to build ships because of the action which the Government have now taken is not really true.
  When we consider the big ships, we are again concerned with comparatively small numbers, and the majority of them obviously will continue to be built at home, but I think the fishing industry has the right if it can to obtain competitive tenders on fair terms to build its ships abroad.
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  I come back to the "Lord Nelson". I am quite certain, knowing them, that the owners would have much preferred to have found a British shipyard capable of building that ship.
  Lady Tweedsmuir: When my hon. Friend says that the "Lord Nelson" was a ship that could not be built in a British yard, he will recall, will he not, the "Fair Try" and also the "Junella", which has only just left Aberdeen, having been built at Aberdeen?
  Mr. Prior: I am dealing with the shipbuilding industry because I think it is very important that it should face up to the facts of life. I have criticised the management of the shipyards. I want to criticise the trade unions as well. The sooner the shipbuilding industry as an industry realises that it cannot afford to have either bad management or restrictive practices in the industry the better and quicker it will be able to compete with foreign yards on its own terms, and then there will be no need to worry at all about ships being built abroad, because they will be built at home.
  I think the Minister is perfectly right in taking this decision. After all, how can we expect other countries to play fair with us, and complain that they are using underhand methods, if we do not play fair with them? I think the terms are fair and it is up to the shipbuilding industry to make certain it can compete. I am quite confident that now it can compete and I hope that it will take this lesson to heart. I think everybody concerned is satisfied by recent efforts that it should be able to compete, and it has appalled me that we should have heard such nonsense talked, and I hope the industry will from now on behave in the way it should.
  6.25 p.m.
  Mr. Frederick Willey: I hope that, on reflection, the hon. Member for Lowestoft (Mr. Prior) will regret the discordant note that he has struck in the debate. I wish to assure the right hon. Gentleman that I do not intervene to cause him any discomfort and I hope from seeing him sitting so firmly on the Front Bench that he is happily installed there and that that appearance is not misleading. I do

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  not wish to discuss the fishing industry, but to pursue the debate we have had about shipbuilding.
  This is what has caused anxiety in a Scheme which, I am sure, otherwise would have been generally welcomed by the House. As the right hon. Gentleman knows, over the past few years I have consistently expressed a good deal of anxiety about this great industry. No one can deny, however material this may be, that the industry will be at a disadvantage when this Scheme comes into force, compared with the position which it enjoyed before it came into force. I do not think that anybody can deny that.
  What I find very difficult to understand is: who thought of imposing this disadvantage on the shipbuilding industry? I was fortunate enough to hear the debate on the day before we began the Whitsun Recess. It was quite clear to me that the former Secretary of State was not responsible for it. I have heard the lucid explanation of the right hon. Gentleman, who made it plain that he was not responsible. What I should like to know is: who is responsible, because a guess has been made that it may have been a civil servant in the Foreign Office? My guess is that it could easily have been done by a civil servant in the Ministry of Pensions and National Insurance, who, rather than resort to doodling, turned his mind to G.A.T.T. and E.F.T.A.
  I object to this, as I have objected before. I object to government by men from Whitehall. It is quite clear from the way that this has been presented. We had no debate in Standing Committee, and there was no debate when we had the Second Reading in another place. It is clear that this was not a political decision, but it is a matter with very real political implications and repercussions. I do not think that we should go on tolerating this government by men sitting in the obscurity of the third room back. I think that it might be a good idea if they were brought to the Bar of the House. It would be very interesting to see the people who really are our effective rulers.
  Here is a case where it has been made quite clear, from the embarrassment which Ministers have suffered since this matter has become the focus of political attention, that it was not a matter about
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  which the full political implications were considered before it was done. It was done by some George Washington type of official in a Ministry—we are not even sure which one it was.
  What is quite clear is that the fishing industry has not made representations to any Department about this. That is quite clear. I am not talking about consultation, but no initiative came from the fishing industry about this. This is important, because the right hon. Gentleman put this in the context of providing greater opportunity of choice to the fishing industry in obtaining new vessels. The industry has not asked for this, and I am not very impressed by his talking about a working party and about further arrangements through the Authority and the Ministry of Transport.
  In fact, freedom of choice will be seriously limited. We are to have this reference to the Authority and to the Ministry of Transport. As I say, I do not want to trespass on the fishing industry, but I know from personal knowledge that some members of the fishing industry have expressed their concern about this and, that, contrary to what the right hon. Gentleman said, have asked to be assured that there will not be unnecessary interference with specifications. It is clear that no initiative came from the fishing industry. It is equally clear that there was no consultation with the shipbuilders until after the decision was taken.
  As has previously been said, the industry is facing very grave difficulties. We have been given figures relating to the east coast of Scotland. In the earlier debate the hon. Member for Maidstone (Mr. J. Wells) gave figures—they were accepted by the Government Front Bench—to show that the number of men employed in the fishing vessel and boatbuilding industry had been halved in the last twelve months. We cannot lightly put this on one side. Although it might be a minor aggravation in other circumstances, this decision can be really serious for people in an industry as badly hit as this one.
  We surmise that the difficulty relates to G.A.T.T. and E.F.T.A., but we have had no reply to the question persistently put to the right hon. Gentleman: why do this? I do not know what discussions the right hon. Gentleman has had with

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  the Minister of Transport, but shipping all over the world is riddled by subsidies. It may be for this reason that no representations have been made to us. The former Secretary of State told us in the previous debate that no formal complaints had been made. I do not know whether a change of Government would affect the position, but if a complaint were made in present circumstances presumably there would be discussions about balance of payments factors.
  It is important to realise the purpose of the white fish and herring subsidies. We considered this as a broad national question. It is not unrelated to defence. The position of trawlers and small vessels was borne in mind when we considered generally whether the industry should be aided. These are factors which we should still bear in mind. It is not good enough for the former Secretary of State to say that it may well be that a few orders will go abroad. If orders go abroad, they will be for the large and expensive vessels.
  I should like the Minister to say something more about his discussions with the Minister of Transport. I mention the question of the trawlers and fishing boats in the national context not only as fishing vessels, but as part of our way of life and of our national defence. But think what is happening when we look around our coasts. There are 200 or more smaller ports in desperate difficulty. We have the plight of coastal shipping and the plight of the smaller shipbuilding yards.
  This is something which affects our position as a country. It seems to me that it is something which has been entirely neglected by the right hon. Gentleman in taking this decision—entirely neglected in the sense that we are talking about, of utilising the natural resources near our shores. We cannot do this without not only fishermen but boat-builders, too. Also, generally, as an island, we have continually to think about defence.
  If the right hon. Gentleman had discussed this with the Minister of Transport, surely the Minister of Transport would have said, "I am perplexed and sorely worried about the whole business. The Rochdale Committee is looking into the matter of the ports, and I am await-
  92
  ing its advice. It is a matter of concern to us if the smaller yards are knocked out." Indeed, we may reach the position where the fishing industry may be driven to order abroad.
  The main theme which has run through our debates on shipbuilding during the past few years has been the increasing volume of tonnage built abroad for British owners. The last returns from Lloyd's showed that we had reached the staggering total of 750,000 tons of construction in foreign yards for registration by British owners. Under the present Government we have become what we have never previously been—a net importer of new shipping. We appear in Lloyds List as the largest importer of new shipping in the world. I should have thought that this would have upset and concerned the Minister of Transport. I should have thought that against that background he would not lightly take any step which might be thought to show lack of concern for the position which is arising in world shipbuilding.
  This is a very odd moment to consider this Scheme. It is only a few weeks since the Minister of Transport said that while he was concerned about the volume under construction abroad, he was pleased to learn that the orders placed abroad had been reduced to a trickle. Just at the moment when public attention has been drawn to the problem and shipowners are responding the Government say, "We do not mind if a few orders go abroad which otherwise might not have done so." I should have thought that this was just the moment not to take any such action. While I appreciate what the Minister has said and accept his good faith—that we will try as best we can to ensure that orders do not go to yards which are subsidised and that this is more than has been said previously—I join hon. Members who have said that this is a task which the Minister will not accomplish.
  We had a firm of accountants investigating this, and they told us, in effect, that they could not advise us about the question of subsidies. The Minister of Transiport spent the last Summer Recess visiting yards, and told us that he could find no evidence of subsidy. But we know that subsidisation takes place. There are subsidies in France and Italy, and we know that, when need arises,

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  subsidy is given to German yards. However, it is very difficult to find the subsidy. Some yards, for instance, are given grant in aid instead of the State incurring expenditure on unemployment benefit. How can one trace this to the construction of a vessel?
  Throughout our debates on shipbuilding we have had all the arguments about the difference between the credit facilities provided for foreign yards compared with what is made available for our yards. I should think that the right hon. Gentleman would be unable to get any assistance from the Ministry of Transport on these matters. It is clear from our debates that the Ministry of Transport would say that they were not in a position to determine—apart from the most obvious cases—whether or not there had been subsidy.
  I join my hon. Friends in complaining about this matter. We cannot oppose it, because it is only one part of the Scheme. We cannot amend it. However, I hope that the Minister will recognise that there is a great deal of anxiety about this provision and that everyone who is affected by it and concerned with it is convinced that it is unnecessary. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will assure the House that he will keep it very well informed of any orders which are placed abroad by virtue of this Scheme. I hope that he will confirm that the assurances that he gave us in opening the discussion will be fully honoured and implemented and that if he feels any difficulty or embarrassment in finding out whether the orders have gone to subsidised yards, as we believe they will do, he will not hesitate about amending the Scheme.
  6.40 p.m.
  The Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Gilmour Lebnrn): I should like to add my expression of sympathy to the hon. and learned Member for Aberdeen, North (Mr. Hector Hughes). We all greatly miss his presence and no one more than myself. During the Committee stage discussions on the Bill there were many occasions when the hon. and learned Gentleman and I had reason to debate matters across the Committee.
  Today, we have been debating not only the question of grants and loans to the fishing industry, but also the whole question of shipbuilding. I assure my
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  hon. Friend the Member for Tynemouth (Dame Irene Ward) that although she may feel that the fishing industry does not receive the same amount of attention as agriculture I cannot accept that criticism. I assure her that I find just as much of my time at the Scottish Office —as does my right hon. Friend—is spent on matters connected with the fishing industry as with agriculture.
  Dame Irene Ward: I live on the right side of the Border.
  Mr. Leburn: I believe that the main point in our discussion today related to the question of making grants available for vessels and engines built abroad. Certainly, the subject has not lacked discussion. The hon. Member for Edinburgh, Leith (Mr. Hoy) knows that there was a debate on 8th June, although he said that no opportunity had been given for discussion, and it has—
  Mr. Hoy: The hon. Gentleman had better get it right. I did not say that at all. If an opportunity was given our thanks are due to Mr. Speaker, and not to the Government, that I was successful in securing an Adjournment debate. I said that this House could not make a decision on the issue of whether a subsidy ought to be extended to these foreign shipyards. That right has been denied to the House up to the present, and, in fact, it has been denied to the House tonight.
  Mr. Leburn: I do not quarrel with what the hon. Member said. I was saying that the whole question has been discussed before now. I make no complaint about the fact that we are discussing it more fully on this occasion. That is as it should be.
  As was explained on a previous occasion, it is the Schemes and not the enabling legislation which hitherto have contained the requirements that grant-aided vessels or engines should be built in the United Kingdom. That requirement is not included in the Schemes which we are asking the House to approve tonight. Therefore, it is proper that the omission should be discussed. What I have said is the answer to the hon. Member for Leith who suggested —echoing the discussion in another place on 26th June—that this House had been deprived of its constitutional night to take an effective decision on the matter.

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  The hon. Gentleman suggested that had there been something in the Bill, or if the absence of any requirement to build in this country had been drawn to the attention of the House when the Bid] was being discussed, an Amendment could 'have been moved and a decision taken on the question of foreign building. Whereas, as things are now, that cannot be done, since, as has been said rightly, the House cannot amend the Schemes. It can either accept or reject them as they are.
  As my right hon. Friend explained on 8th June, the requirement about grant-aided vessels or engines being British built has never been included in the enabling legislation. It has always been part of the Schemes. We did not in any way seek to conceal anything by not detailing with the point in the Bill. We were simply following precedent. It has always been a matter for the Schemes and a matter for debate when the Schemes came up for approval as is being done tonight. I have said to the hon. Gentleman that we are faced tonight with a situation in which it is not possible to amend the schemes. They must either be accepted or rejected.
  Mr. Willis: Surely, if the Government had made an announcement at the time when the Bill was being discussed in the Standing Commititee an Amendment or a new Clause could have been moved which would have enabled us to take a vote upon the matter.
  Mr. Leburn: That may well be so. I am saying that precedent has been that this matter has come up in connection with the Schemes rather than the legislation. Year after year that has been the case.
  What I think more important is that we should deal with the merits of the question. I hope that the hon. Member for Leith will not mind if I say that I cannot allow to pass unchallenged his statement that these are subsidies to foreign shipyards. They are not. They are subsidies to our fishing industry in order that those in the industry may equip themselves. There is no question of these grants being given to shipbuilders abroad, or to shipbuilders in this country either, for that matter.
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  I have listened carefully to what has been said this evening, and I do not think that anything new has emerged which would lead me to believe the Government decision to be wrong. Plainly, the present requirement that grant-aided vessels or engines must be built in the United Kingdom is a breach of our international obligation. The hon. Gentleman and my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen, South (Lady Tweedsmuir) raised the point that in the past we may have been in breach of our international obligation, but that we have done nothing about it. The point is that having become aware of this fact—
  Mr. Hoy: When?
  Mr. Leburn: I should not like to say exactly when. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State during the debate on 8th June said:
  "Nevertheless, there have been inquiries which indicate that our practice has not gone on unobserved—."—[OFFICIAL REPORT. 8th June, 1962; Vol. 661, c. 851.]
  Mr. Frederick Peart: By whom?
  Mr. Leburn: It is true—
  Mr. Peart: Will the hon. Gentleman say from whom inquiries have been made?
  Mr. Willis: And when?
  Mr. Leburn: I do not think that hon. Members should try to use this argument. If a person knows that he is in breach of an agreement, and feels that it may have been going on in the past, that does not excuse anyone for carrying it on into the future. I say that it is arguable that we ought to have removed it before now.
  Mr. Hoy: This is important. I do not want to carry the matter too far. But let me say to the hon. Gentleman that the Committee stage of the Bill lasted for about 26 sittings. During the whole of those proceedings, why did not the Government discover that they had to do this?
  Mr. Leburn: That may well be. [Laughter.] The hon. Gentleman may feel that that is so—
  Mr. Willis: The hon. Gentleman is on a sticky wicket.
  Mr. Leburn: I am not on a sticky wicket at all. I am saying that if anyone in the House—or the Government— is in breach of a contract or an obligation, be it an international obligation or not, I feel that he, or a Government, ought to put it right. I really do believe that we ought to put our house in order, especially at this time when we are embarking on a new series of Schemes under legislation which will run for another ten years.
  Mr. Willey: Can the hon. Gentleman say what representations we have made to other countries about them honouring their obligations in this respect?
  Mr. Leburn: I can assure the hon. Member that we are in a very much better position to make representations to other countries.
  Mr. Willey: Have the Government made them?
  Mr. Leburn: I cannot say whether we have or not, but if the occasion does arise we shall be in a position to make representations to other Governments, whereas if we ourselves were in default in a matter of this kind we could not do so. I feel strongly that we must put our own house in order, especially if we are now to embark on this new series of Schemes.
  As my right hon. Friend said when winding up the debate on 8tlh June, we do not believe that the removal of the Britisih-built condition will result in any substantial number of boats being built abroad. We believe that British shipyards are in general efficient and should be able to hold their own in fair competition with foreign yards. I thought that point was made very well by my hon. Friend the Member for Lowestoft (Mr. Prior).
  The hon. Member for Sunderland, North (Mr. Willey) talked about the plight of our shipbuilding yards. We on this side believe that they are competitive, that they are efficient and that they will be able to compete. I must again make clear to the House that this subsidy is a subsidy to the fishing industry and not a subsidy to the shipbuilding industry. If we wanted to subsidise the shipbuilding industry we certainly would not have done it in this way.
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  My hon. Friend the Member for Lowestoft made the point that the distant water owners until now have had no grants yet one-tenth of the 70 or so vessels they have built during the last ten years have been built abroad. In other words, only seven of those 70 have been built abroad. On a number of occasions that was for special reasons in regard to the type of vessel and on others it was because delivery dates offered by British yards were much longer than they are now. For the smaller vessels we believe the links between fishermen and builders should be closer.
  There are all sorts of reasons why a fisherman should prefer to have his boat built in a local yard always provided that our own yards are reasonably competitive on price and quality The only real danger would be if our yards were exposed to unfair competition from foreign yards heavily subsidised by their Governments. I repeat the categorical assurance given by my right hon. Friend on 8th June and given again today by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture that we shall ensure that grants are not approved for the building of vessels by foreign yards known to be in receipt of a material element of subsidy. That, I am quite sure, will safeguard the position.
  Mr. D. Marshall: My hon. Friend has not yet referred to the question of currency manipulation.
  Mr. Leburn: I shall come to that.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen, South asked: what is a material element of subsidy? If she will consider it carefully she will see that it is not possible to define "a material element of subsidy" in words. I believe that she appreciates that it is a matter of judgment. Obviously, if a subsidy is of any significance, or any significant amount, we would not in that case approve of it.
  Lady Tweedsmuir: Will my hon. Friend clarify what is meant by "a significant amount"?
  Mr. Leburn: I tell my hon. Friend that this is a question of judgment. I am quite satisfied that that judgment can be left to my right hon. Friend. My hon. Friend the Member for Tynemouth and the hon. Member for Goole (Mr. Jeger)

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  asked about consultation and arrangements between the shipbuilding industry and the fishing industry. I assure them that the arrangements which have been made have been fully discussed with the shipbuilders and I understand that they are acceptable to them.
  On the question put by my hon. Friend the Member for Tynemouth, a meeting was held with the shipbuilders on 26th June when proposals for ensuring fair competition was put before them. I have to admit to her that there was no consultation with the shipbuilding industry itself, the B.T.F.—the British Trawlers' Federation—for the reason that this action will be for the direct benefit of the fishing industry itself. We did not think it necessary, in those circumstances, to consult the fishing industry.
  Dame Irene Ward: If negotiations are taking place which vitally affect the British Trawlers' Federation and the fishing industry, could my hon. Friend explain why he considers that they need not be consulted about a new proposal to be used in relation to the industry?
  Mr. Leburn: The difference between my hon. Friend and myself is that I would not consider that the fishing industry is vitally affected in a matter of this kind. It might vitally affect shipbuilders or the boat building industry, but it does not vitally affect the fishing industry. It can only be to its advantage to be able to purchase boats wherever it wishes to do so.
  Dame Irene Ward: It does not on specifications.
  Mr. Leburn: The interesting point raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Bodmin (Mr. Marshall) is one of the matters which my right hon. Friend will certainly keep in mind.
  My hon. Friend the Member for St. Ives (Mr. G. R. Howard) raised two interesting points. One was in regard to grants and whether these could be given to owners who were to carry out experimental voyages or special kinds of experiments. I assure my hon. Friend that financial grants can be given through the White Fish Authority towards the cost of experimental vessels. There is no statutory limit on the size
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  of the grants which can be given and each case will be considered on its merits. I assure my hon. Friend that we have this point very much in mind.
  My hon. Friend suggested that grants should be given for protection vessels by sea fishery committees, but we have no powers to give grants of that kind. I draw this attention to the fact that this might be a very expensive operation. From my experience I know that running a protection squadron in Scotland is a very expensive operation. I hardly think that a sea fisheries committee would be in a position to undertake this task.
  Mr. Marshall: I am most unhappy with what my hon. Friend said, which was that his right hon. Friend and my right hon. Friend will bear this interesting—as he was kind enough to say— point in mind. I put a specific question. If by currency manipulation one brings about a subsidy in a foreign yard, will this qualify as a subsidy? In the recollection of most right hon. and hon. Members, this was how Dr. Schacht did this during the régime in Germany.
  Mr. Leburn: If my hon. Friend the Member for Bodmin believes that it is a subsidy to a material extent—and he obviously thinks that it is—this will apply in the same way as any other material element of subsidy which we have already discussed.
  Mr. Patrick Wall: My hon. Friend has said that the White Fish Authority could give grants for experimental vessels. Will he make it clear that in that case the responsibility for the specifications falls entirely in the hands of the owners and that the job of the White Fish Authority is merely to approve or disapprove the subsidy requested?
  Mr. Leburn: In a matter of this kind we should obviously discuss, and the White Fish Authority would discuss, with the builders what it was hoped to achieve with regard to the specifications of the vessel. We could not expect the White Fish Authority necessarily to approve that expenditure unless it were satisfied that it was money to be well spent. I hope that this explanation satisfies the House.
  Mr. Hoy: Before the hon. Member sits down, I remind him that I asked a specific question: how would he differentiate between a subsidy paid to a foreign shipyard and one paid to a British shipyard tendering for the same vessel, and what provision there is in G.A.T.T. or E.F.T.A. which permits the Government to take that action?
  Mr. Leburn: In the first place, there is no subsidy to the yard; there is a subsidy to the owner of the vessel. The point was also made to some extent by my hon. Friend the Member for Fife, East (Sir J. Gilmour), when he asked what would happen if the price of the boat which was to be built in the foreign yard was higher than the price of the boat to be built in this country, and the owner decided to build in a foreign yard. He asked how it was that we should pay only the subsidy on the lower price. This is only a sensible arrangement. We cannot decide where the owner will build his boat, but I do not think that it would be wise to use Government money to subsidise that boat at a price higher than that at which it could be built in this country. I could visualise a case in which the White Fish Authority would not necessarily pay grant on the full amount for a boat built in this country which could have been built for a considerably lower price at some other yard in this country. I do not think that Government money should go towards subsidising boats built at higher prices than are reasonable. I hope that I have answered the questions.
  Mr. G. R. Howard: Before my hon. Friend sits down—
  Mr. Speaker: Order. There must be some finality about the process of sitting down, both physically and in terms of order.
  7.5 p.m.
  Mr. Ede: I intended to start by congratulating the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food on surviving yesterday, but I am not at all sure that he does not feel that the former Secretary of State for Scotland is in a happier position than foe is at the moment, except that the Minister of Agriculture was not here on 8th June and, therefore, the speech then was made by the Secretary
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  of State for Scotland. I know where the right hon. Gentleman was on 8th June, because I was there, too.
  Mr. Dudley Williams: Where was that?
  Mr. Ede: Epsom Downs.
  It is a terrible thing to see a Scotsman struggling with his conscience, and that is what we have just seen. At some stage in the proceedings after the Bill had left this House the Government became conscience-smitten in that they had broken international law. They discovered this all of a sudden. Then, in another place, in circumstances which prevented us from having an effective discussion in this House on a matter of finance which is our prerogative, they made a statement. Was this made on instructions of the Secretary of State for Scotland or on instructions of the Minister of Agriculture? One or other of these two right hon. Gentlemen seems to have given instructions that the statement was to be made in the other place, which has caused all the trouble. The right hon. Gentleman this afternoon talked about outward and visible signs. That is always connected with inward and spiritual grace, and the gracefulness of it has not been made apparent this evening.
  The hon. Lady the Member for Tyne-mouth (Dame Irene Ward) put some very pertinent points to the Ministry which the hon. Member has not answered, except to say that at a certain stage in these matters they became conscience-smitten. When did they discover that they had been committing this series of offences against international law? Was it while the Bill was before the House or did it come afterwards? Surely we can be told when that painful discovery was made. We ought also to be told why, if it were known before the Bill had left the House, the House was not then informed of it, because, as my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh, East (Mr. Willis) said, had we known of it in this House we could have taken steps by a new Clause or in some other way to see that the issue was raised here.
  One can only hope that the Ministers in these two Departments have learned from this how serious the House is bound to take a matter of this kind.

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  Speaking for a shipbuilding and ship-repairing port, I know how bitter the feeling is there about the way in which this matter has been handled. In some astounding way, if the ship is built in a foreign yard, the money will get into the pockets of the shipbuilders responsible for that yard and not into the pockets of shipbuilders in this country. I cannot see that we have had any explanation from the Minister to make us feel satisfied that this matter was at any stage handled competently or with any regard for the final interests of this country.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Resolved,
  That the White Fish Industry (Grants for Fishing Vessels and Engines) Scheme, 1962. dated 4th July, 1962, a copy of which was laid before this House on 4th July, be approved.
  Herring Industry (Grants for Fishing Vessels and Engines) Scheme 1962, dated 4th July, 1962, [copy laid before the House, 4th July], approved.—[Mr. Leburn.]
  7.10 p.m.
  Mr. Soames: I beg to move,
  That the White Fish Subsidy (United Kingdom) Schemes, 1962, dated 4th July, 1962, a copy of which was laid before this House on 4th July, be approved.
  As this Scheme and the corresponding Scheme for herring subsidy are similar, and as the Aggregate Amount of Grants Order arises directly from them, I suggest that it might suit the convenience of the House if we deal with all three together.
  Mr. Speaker: So be it.
  Mr. Soames: The House is accustomed at this time of year to Statutory Instruments providing for operating subsidies for the fishing industry for the year ahead. This year there are some changes brought about by the new Act, though some of the familiar methods of subsidy payments continue.
  I want, first, to say a few words about the familiar ones. The Herring Scheme and the White Fish Scheme provide for subsidies for inshore and herring vessels on the same basis as before. The House will remember that the Government intend to continue, as in the past, to fix the herring and inshore subsidies year by year according to the needs of each section. The
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  changes this year have been made in line with this principle.
  Those classes of vessels which are doing relatively well have had the subsidy reduced and those doing not so well are to get the same subsidy or a higher rate. The daily rates for the larger herring vessels have been adjusted and the stowage rate for the smaller vessels has been substantially increased. As regards inshore vessels, the stonage rate has been increased by 1d. to 1s. 3d. and a daily rate has been introduced for vessels between 60 ft. and 70 ft., which it is calculated will bring them in 1962 roughly the same subsidy as they got in 1961. It will have the advantage of providing an income when catches are poor.
  Vessels between 70 ft. and 80 ft. are now classed as inshore vessels rather than near water vessels, and the daily rate for them is being increased. The seiners which make long voyages are to be paid a daily rate the whole year round instead of six months of the year only. It will be at a lower rate than hitherto, but we believe that the net result will be advantageous to them.
  The method of fixing the subsidy for trawlers over 80 ft. long follows the new policy set out in the Government's White Paper last August and incorporated in the new Act. Basic subsidies are to be paid to these vessels tapering off within a pre-determined range over the next ten years and additional special rates of subsidy to particular classes whose circumstances warrant it.
  The basic rates of subsidy set out in the Scheme are those agreed with the British Trawlers' Federation and the Scottish Owners' Association and published last autumn. The Scottish Owners' Association have recently decided to repudiate this agreement and have asked for considerably higher basic rates of subsidy. The Government heard their arguments but have decided that it is right to adhere to the terms of the agreement.
  One of the main features of the Fleck Report was that the basic subsidy rates should be designed to encourage efficiency. In the talks between the Government and the industry which followed the publication of the Report, both agreed that this should be a guiding principle. It was as a result of these

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  discussions that the three initial basic subsidy rates were decided upon and agreed to, designed, as they were, to give a fair relationship between distant, middle and near water vessels having regard to the differences in their costs of construction, operating expenses and catching capacity. It would be wrong to throw aside this principle, which we believe is a sound one for the trawler industry as a whole.
  Moreover, the British Trawlers' Federation, whose members own four-fifths of the trawlers in the United Kingdom, still think that the agreement is right and are standing by it and the Government would not be entitled to tear it up, even if we thought it right to do so, which we do not.
  Last year was not a good one for the industry as a whole, and Scottish boats have suffered along with the others. But the fortunes of the fishing industry are notorious for rapid fluctuations from year to year and we cannot look simply on one year's results. This has to be decided upon on a ten-year basis. We must remember that this time we are not fixing just one year's rates but the initial basic rates which will set the pattern for the next ten years.
  Some sections of the fleet have done worse than others in the past twelve months. In our view, the way to tackle this is not to throw over a general agreement designed to be in the best interests of the fleet as a whole, but rather to give particular help to those in special need. There are three ways in which we are able to do this—by a moratorium on debts to the White Fish Authority, by lifting restrictions on distant water fishing, and by supplementary payments. This has been our approach to the problem.
  It was clear that a moratorium for those in financial difficulties who have failed on their payments under their loan agreements with the White Fish Authority was one of the ways in which we could help and the Trawler Owners' Associations asked that a moratorium should be extended to all those who have loans. But we see no reason for allowing those owners who are capable of paying to defer payment of their commercial debts, so the moratorium will be given only to those who prove the need for it and have a fair chance of over-
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  coming their financial difficulties within a reasonable period. The moratorium will be subject to a number of specific conditions, which we believe to be right, since public money is involved. These are set out in the letter a copy of which has been put in the Library. Hon. Members who have read it will notice that payments may be deferred for "a reasonable period". We have purposely not been specific about the period, but I take the point that more than one year will probably be necessary, in some cases at least, and we have in mind a period of up to about two years.
  Then there is the second way in which we can help, the removal of the restrictions on distant water voyages by grant-aided vessels which the British Trawlers' Federation, representing the interests of all trawler owners, has itself proposed. I hope that the House will not underestimate the benefit that can flow from this for the middle water fleet. It is not possible to be precise, but the results which we have seen from vessels which have been able to make additional voyages to distant waters following the relaxation of the restrictions last year lead us to believe that the removal of restrictions will make a difference over a year of about £10 a day to those vessels which take advantage of it. With the bigger vessels able to fish further away, this will reduce the weight of fishing in middle waters and so be of considerable help to the smaller vessels, which cannot go elsewhere.
  Finally, the House will remember that the Act provides for special subsidy rates up to a maximum of £350,000 in any one year. The whole purpose of these additional payments is to help sections of the fleet in real need. It is not a particularly enviable task to apportion these payments as between the various claims on behalf of individual classes of vessel, but we have been guided by what we thought fair justice as between the various claims. It would not have been prudent to commit the whole amount now, and we have kept some £120,000 in reserve. It will, therefore, be open to any port to make a further claim for special subsidy at any time during the year, and we shall be able to consider these claims on their merits in the knowledge that some money is available to meet well-founded claims that might arise later.

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  I want just to say a word about the Aggregate Amount of Grants Order, which will provide the moneys for these various subsidies. The maximum expenditure on subsidies authorised at the moment is £25¼ million, and that will soon be exhausted. The new Order is, therefore, being made under Section 1 of the Act to provide an extra £5 million, which will be enough to carry us through for the whole of the coming subsidy year. These subsidy schemes together lay down the initial basic subsidy rates which will set the main lines on which the Government will give financial help to the trawler industry over the next ten years. They also provide for additional special payments for the coming year to those sections of the trawler fleet that have so far made out the best case for some extra assistance. These, with the moratorium to individual owners, will help those who are in immediate difficulties.
  As to the future, we all hope that last year's bad results will prove to have been only one of the ups and downs to which the fishing industry is constantly prone, and we have no reason to suppose that, in the longer term, the fortunes of the trawling industry should not recover, particularly with the help that the middle-water fleet will get from the removal of restrictions on distant water fishing next year.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen, South (Lady Tweedsmuir) mentioned negotiations with the Common Market on fishing interests. The reason why there have so far been no such negotiations with the Six is that the Six themselves have not yet even started to consider what common fisheries policy they are to have. But we have carefully considered the provisions of the Treaty of Rome in that respect, and the general principles embodied in it in relation to our fishery policies, and we do not think that our general objectives would be in any way inconsistent, or make it difficult for us, in this regard, to accept the Articles of the Treaty of Rome. I can assure my hon. Friend that, at the appropriate time, we shall certainly make our views on fisheries policies well known to the Community.
  These Schemes make provision for subsidies for the coming year; they
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  cover all sections of the industry, from the smallest inshore vessels to the largest trawlers. I think that they provide the best balance we can devise between the interests of the different sections of the industry, and I commend them to the House.
  7.25 p.m.
  Mr. Frederick Peart: I should be out of order if I followed the argument which the right hon. Gentleman nearly developed about policy towards Europe on fisheries, but I hope that he will make his views known soon and that they will be better known than are the Government's views on agriculture. Very little has been known about the Government's views on agriculture, and we still wish to press the Minister on that subject.
  I am very glad that the Minister has presented the group of Statutory Instruments we are now considering. I had expected that the hon. Member for Westmorland (Mr. Vane) would have replied as Parliamentary Secretary, but we have heard (that he has been cast aside by the Government along with the other Parliamentary Secretary in another place. I am sorry that the hon. Gentleman has gone, because he was always courteous, efficient and, I believe—and I say this quite sincerely—one of the ablest junior Ministers we have had dealing with agriculture. Why he has been thrown aside by a Prime Minister who has been so ruthless, I cannot understand. It obviously means that in the Tory Party one must not do one's job efficiently, or one is cast out. I trust that the right hon. Gentleman will feel very sad at the loss of two diligent Parliamentary Secretaries.
  It was those two hon. Gentlemen, and the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland—the hon. Member for Kinross and West Perthshire (Mr. Leburn)—who carried the burden of the relevant legislation in Committee. Tonight we have heard the views of the Minister who is, in the end, responsible. We do not oppose the Orders. We accept the need for operating subsidies. The Minister said that some of the subsidies are due to changes in the new Act and that others are familiar subsidies carried on under previous legislation.
  There have been adjustments here and there. In connection with the Scottish

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  trawler owners' repudiation of the amounts, the right hon. Gentleman made a rather unusual remark. He said, "Even if we thought that any changes would be right, we would stick to our agreement." Can the Minister explain that remark in more detail? Does he really mean that if in the next year or two it were found that the agreement on subsidies, and the other details that we are now discussing, ware not working, the Government would still carry on with their policy without any adjustments? I should like a definite answer to that, and I will gladly give way to get it.
  Mr. Soames: I said that we made the agreement as to the starting rates only a matter of months ago. That agreement was reached after long and thorough discussion taking all interests into consideration. I said that even if we had agreed with the Scottish owners, which we did not, it would come ill from the Government themselves to break an agreement into which they had entered only a few months earlier. That was in relation to starting rates.
  Mr. Peart: Yes, but obviously the Government—
  Mr. Soames: All I say is that the British Trawlers' Federation wish that it should be held to the agreement.
  Mr. Peart: But even if, as the right hon. Gentleman says the British Trawlers' Federation owns four-fifths of the fleet, that is not a sound argument. The one-fifth, which mainly covers the Scottish side, faces greater difficulties over a period. Its members are smaller owners—often family firms—and they face difficulties. It is unfair to compare them in that way. Those hon. Members opposite who represent Scottish constituencies should press the Minister on this matter.
  To take up the Minister's other argument. If we go into the Common Market, it may well be that the subsidies will have to go. We might find that there was a change of policy, probably dictated toy the Commission in Brussels, or by someone else. The Government would have to change their mind if they were out voted. That situation might arise if we enter the Common Market and sign the Treaty of Rome. Even if there is agreement between the British
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  Traders' Federation and the Scottish Section, it could happen, if we enter Europe, that these subsidies would have to be altered. I hope, therefore that the right hon. Gentleman will not be too dogmatic in his approach.
  We accept in principle that there is a case for these subsidies. Nevertheless, hon. Members who have followed this matter, particularly those who represent Scottish constituencies, know that there have been difficulties. I do not intend to go at great length into the plight of the Scottish trawler owners. I will leave that to hon. Members who represent Scottish constituencies. I have with me a lengthy memorandum issued by the Aberdeen Fishing Vessel Owners' Association Limited and the Newhaven and Granton Trawler Owners' Association. This memorandum repudiates the agreement made by those organisations with the Government in October last year and asserts that they cannot accept the terms of the Bill, particularly its references to viability. Published on 13th June last, the memorandum states:
  "The Scottish Trawler Owners are asking for a subsidy sufficient only to enable them to break-even and provide a small return on the capital which they have invested in modernising the industry."
  In other words, they believe that the subsidies now provided by the Government will not really help them. They are seeking an adjustment. The document continues:
  "The meagre subsidy proposed by the Government will mean that, after depreciation, vessels will be operating this year at an average loss of between £4,500 and £6.000. Owners cannot consider maintaining their fleets in a modern condition and to suit changing needs under these proposals. Unless the Government gives the right amount of financial support now and for a few more years there will be no Scottish Trawling Fleet left operating to take advantage of any improvement in the situation …"
  The memorandum goes on to argue this case in detail and pleads for a greater degree of financial support.
  We have not today received an answer from the right hon. Gentleman. In fact, the Minister casually dismissed the whole matter. It may be that my hon. Friends will press this matter, for we certainly would like a reply from the Minister responsible for Scottish affairs. There is a feeling in the industry that, despite the agreement, the industry may not be viable over a ten-year period. Indeed,

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  the British Trawlers' Federation admits this in its memorandum of 31st October, 1961. I used the following quotation from that memorandum on Second Reading of the Bill when I stated:
  "'We accept the basic principle that the trawler fleet should be self-supporting within ten years and will co-operate fully with the Government to that end'."
  I assert that members of the British Trawlers' Federation are still concerned about whether or not that principle will work out in practice and that the industry will really be viable in ten years' time.
  The Fleck Report indicates that there is a possibility that the industry will not be viable over a long period of subsidy arrangements. On Second Reading I quoted from the Report as follows:
  "'The industry is, therefore, not likely to have any easy time ahead of it, and it may be all it can do to hold its own at about the present level of profitability, or an only slightly higher one, even if the subsidies continue as at present'."
  I continued to quote from the Report:
  "'Any reduction of the fleet to a completely economic level, such as must eventually follow the withdrawal of the fishing subsidies, might lead to a decline in the supply and a rise in the price of home-caught fish'." —[OFFICIAL REPORT, 14th November, 1961; Vol. 694, c. 301–2.]
  I could go on for many paragraphs quoting the Fleck Report, but I will not weary the House. We have argued consistently that these subsidies, while we realise the need for them, may not result in a viable industry over a period of ten years. It could happen that many sections of the industry might be harmed by events quite outside the control of the Government.
  I am, therefore, merely asking the right hon. Gentleman not to be too optimistic. I realise that he should be realistic, but in view of the situation regarding the Scottish side of the industry, he will appreciate that the people concerned are very worried about the matter. I appreciate, also, that an important argument could be introduced; the whole question of subsidies. I will not develop this argument at great length because I accept the need for subsidies. However, time and again it has been emphasised that we are subsidising private industry. On many occasions hon. Members have pointed
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  out—so did the Fleck Report—that we should exercise caution in this respect.
  In this connection, it is worth bearing in mind the evidence given by Mr. George Middleton to the Fleck Committee. It is important to remember that we are also subsidising an important private section of industry which in certain circumstances may be financially stable. We must admit that there has been a growth of monopoly among certain sections of the fishing industry. There has been the classic pattern of vertical and horizontal integration. Page 21 of the Fleck Report reveals how certain groups within the industry are doing quite well and how the catching, processing, and distribution sections are becoming so intermingled that it is difficult to know just where the subsidy ends; that is, whether the subsidy, in the end, goes to the catching side or to the other sections.
  On the other hand, there are many smaller owners in Scotland, particularly family concerns, who have not so far been affected by this growth of integration as much as other sections of the industry. That is why I expect the Minister to be a little more sympathetic to the difficulties of the Scottish owners as outlined by the Scottish Trawler Owners' Federation. Tonight he dismissed them rather too casually. Perhaps the Minister responsible for Scottish affairs will give a sympathetic reply.
  Obviously the purpose of the subsidies is to make the industry more efficient. There will be structural changes in the fishing fleet as a result of these subsidies. This point was brought out in detail in Committee on the Sea Fish Industry Bill. On Second Reading, my hon. Friend the Member for Grimsby (Mr. Crosland) explained how structural adjustments might take place.
  We plead for flexibility and also for co-operation between the various authorities concerned. In the design of boats this flexibility must exist and this applies equally in combining the efforts of research workers. The subsidies must be used wisely to ensure that the fleet is modernised, for the taxpayers' money is involved. There must be accountability and the money being spent must improve efficiency within the industry.
  Naturally, the owners have a responsibility in this. They must aim for

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  efficiency and this view has been expressed time and again by horn. Members. We are cautious in the sense that we expect that the industry will become viable, but in view of the difficulties now showing themselves it may be too optimistic to assume that the problems involved will be solved by subsidy arrangement which will peter out over the ten-year period. We support this aid to the industry.
  Those hon. Members who are so critical of aid to public concerns, such as the Scottish coal pits which are being axed as a consequence of the Government fuel and power policy, should not be doctrinaire. Perhaps this evening they will appreciate we are giving a considerable amount of money to private industry —and they should be as generous to public concerns as they are proposing to be to the Scottish and English trawler owners.
  7.40 p.m.
  Mr. Patrick Wolrige-Gordon: I hope that the hon. Member for Workington (Mr. Peart) will not mind if I tell him that I certainly shall not be doctrinaire. I am also deeply conscious of the difficulties of the Scottish trawler owners, but I should like to leave that matter to my hon. Friends on this side of the House who are more closely connected with it than I am and who will cover those points.
  I want to say a word or two about the problems of the inshore fishing fleets in Scotland. They are very serious. These subsidies are very important, but it is little use having a subsidy if there is no fishing industry at all, and that is the reality of the situation which faces us off the north-east coast of Scotland. There are no fish in the local grounds whatsoever, for the second year in succession.
  The inshore herring fishermen are having to go to Lerwick to get the herring and the quality of the fish is good. Moreover, they are the only fish that they get at the moment and the price is good enough to obscure the grimmer realities of the situation for them.
  Even then, though, the numbers are very scarce. The latest figures that 1 have show that for the best day in a week the catch was 1,100 crans and
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  that for the rest of the week it varied between 200 and 700 crans. Apart from that, the boats from Fraserburgh and Peterhead have to travel so far that they are at best only able to get back once or perhaps twice in the week.
  In fact, the whole structure of what has been a traditional and very important form of fishing has been very greatly disturbed with the consequent damage and danger to the industries which have grown up there, based on a regular herring supply. It is an exceedingly scrious matter. In that light it will be a very sad disappointment to the men on boats of between 60 ft. and 80 ft. to find that their subsidy has been out from £8 10s. a week to £8—a loss of 10s.
  I asked about a week ago why there was this scarcity of herring in the North Sea. I can only say that the answer of the Secretary of State that this loss was due to natural causes excites a great deal of derision on the part of men who have to make their living from this industry. They have, generally speaking, been in the business for generations. They have watched the fish come and watched the fish go. They have seen two world wars and they have seen the renaissance of fish. Each time it has come about with a renewal of fishing after the wars and their forced period of conservation. Now we are told that it is due to natural causes, and the fishermen simply do not believe it.
  We see day in and day out foreign trawlers scooping up the heritage of our inshore fishermen with nets through which nothing can pass; they look like curtains. They are catching everything, even sand eels. It is quite absurd to expect that the fishermen will believe that the effect on the death of fish is caused by natural causes, because they see what is causing their destruction. In the Moray Firth, as my hon. Friend says, it is particularly and most painfully obvious.
  The question that I put to my right hon. Friend is: how much longer can we delay pushing out our limits to at least six miles? I am well aware of the delicate balance which has to be made between the interests of the national fleet as a Whole and our own inshore fleet, and also of the delicacy of the

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  negotiations on the Faroes which are due to come off shortly. But we are losing a tremendous national 'heritage of wealth for our inshore fishermen, and if the Government find it impossible to conserve abroad and internationally, why cannot they start a policy of conservation at home?
  We are all aware of the difficulties of getting the nations of the world to agree on a uniform policy of conservation for world fishing. It is a sad fact that some of them seem to prefer to cut their own throats. If we cannot bring about conservation abroad why cannot we do something of the sort for ourselves at home, by expanding our limits to at least six miles and within that territory embark on a policy of control, if necessary, and also the development of our own natural fisheries?
  One thing is obvious—unless we can bring a rebirth to our inshore fishermen a very important industry to the whole of Scotland will suffer material damage.
  7.48 p.m.
  Mr. Anthony Crosland: I have every sympathy with the position of the inshore fishermen, but I cannot imagine a more irresponsible moment for this country to push out its limits within the short period before we start negotiations with the Faroes on the question of limits.
  I want to speak briefly about two matters: first, about the middle-water fleet; and, secondly, the White Fish Authority. On the middle-water fleet, the Minister was, I think, extremely sympathetic. The fleet is still going through an extremely bad period and this reflects itself in a number of middle-water firms who are behind in their interest and capital repayments to the White Fish Authority. The question is what attitude we ought to take to this and what we think is the solution.
  The Minister has described a number of possibilities. First, a complete moratorium on debt repayment for all firms in the industry. He rejected this, I am sure quite rightly, because I do not see how we could justify a total moratorium to people who are perfectly capable of making interest and capital repayment to the White Fish Authority.
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  The second possibility which, in effect, he accepted is that we should have a moratorium for two years, or however long it is needed, simply for those firms in difficulty which cannot make their interest and debt repayments. This the Minister has more or less accepted. I think that this is right although the disadvantage is that this means that the Government accountants have to get themselves heavily involved in the affairs of individual firms. This is a nuisance for the firms concerned. It is not a principle which one wants to support, but I do not see any way round it.
  The next possibility is that we help this section of the fleet—we are concerned mostly with the middle-water section of the fleet at the moment—out of the supplementary fund for contingencies, a fund out of which the Minister can make payments up to £350,000 a year. Payments out of this fund are going to the middle-water fleet. The Minister mentioned that not all of the £350,000 has been covenanted to the industry. I believe that there is still £120,000 for which application can be made from sections which are particularly hard hit. It may be that some part of the middle-water fleet will have to apply for this part of the fund, and I hope that the Minister will be able to help if such application is made.
  When we are discussing the difficulties of the middle-water fleet we should remember that these difficulties may, and indeed should, prove temporary. The situation should have improved two years from now. From the end of this year there will be no restriction on distant water sailing and this may make a number of the larger boats more profitable, enabling the remainder who stay at the Faroes more profitable, too, because there will be less fishing going on there. This should ease the situation in the industry.
  When we add to that the fact that the more inefficient coal burners are going out at a rapid rate, the middle-water picture should look better in time. We should be able to treat this as essentially a temporary problem. Nevertheless, while this problem continues the Government must watch it. I think that the Minister will be sympathetic if applications are made for the reserve element

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  in the £350,000; and it may prove necessary, if these difficulties become aggravated, to increase the size of the supplementary fund beyond the £2½ million at which it now stands.
  I would be very disturbed if, after agreeing to this total aid to the industry, within a year we had to increase it. I hope that we shall be able gradually to see it decline over a period of, say, ten years, and I should be alarmed if we had to increase it. Nevertheless, I hope that the Minister will watch the position carefully.
  Looking back over our discussions during the last year, my regret is that if I were starting again, of the total aid going to the industry I would cut down the amount going to the middle-water section. I recognise that this is being wise after the event, but I think that if we were all starting again many of us would take this view.
  I am less sympathetic to the Scottish owners than some who have already spoken. I do not want to discuss the Scottish owners in detail because one would be mad to get into any discussion about the Scots. I am particularly vulnerable because a namesake of mine, T. W. H. Crosland, once wrote a book entitled "The Unspeakable Scot", in which he quoted Charles Lamb, who said:
  "I have been trying all my life to like Scotchmen, and am obliged to desist from the experiment in despair."
  I am sorry that the Scots have felt it necessary to take the decision that they have, because the industry can only be weakened by lack of unity. The one thing that this industry needs more than anything else is unity. As it has gone off all on its own, the Minister must not think that if he is approached by the Scottish owners speaking mainly of their middle water problems, they represent the whole of the middle-water fleet. They do not. They tend to give the impression sometimes that they represent the whole of the middle-water section of the fleet, whereas we in Grimsby have a substantial part of the middle-water fleet.
  I hope that the Minister will remember this when he or his colleagues are approached by the Scottish trawler owners, and that he should consult the British trawler owners as well. Aberdeen
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  will be largely a distant water port after the restrictions are taken off. It will no longer foe a middle-water port, and, presumably, a large proportion of the trawlers will sail to distant waters.
  My only other point about the Faroes is that when the Minister comes to negotiate with the Faroese on limits I hope that he will bear in mind that one of the reasons why parts of the British industry are suffering is that there has been a spectacular increase in imports from the Faroes and Denmark in the last five years. In Grimsby, from 1957 to 1962, the increase in Faroese landings has been from £150,000 a year to over £800,000 a year, and Danish imports into Grimsby have almost trebled from £700,000 to £2 million. Unlike some people, I am not against all imports as a matter of principle. I am rather a free trader. Indeed, I am a European. Nevertheless, when negotiations start with the Faroes I hope that the Minister will bear this point in mind.
  With regard to the White Fish Authority, through whom these loans, grants and subsidies are channelled, this is a suitable moment to discuss the matter because it has recently asked the industry for an increase in levy from ½d. to 1d., and all our merchants especially are against this increase in the levy. One of the reasons that the Authority has gone into the "red" (this year is that its Income Tax liability is more than doubled. It seems absurd for a public body of this kind so to arrange its financial affairs that it has to pay £28,000 back to the Treasury in tax. I think that by a change in accountancy this considerable burden on the Authority would be saved.
  A larger point is this. I myself would not begrudge the Authority the extra ½d. and, indeed, a larger amount of money if I were certain that it was doing the job that we expect it to do, but I am doubtful whether it is. I am not criticising individuals in the Authorit. I am simply criticising the structure and the size of the Authority.
  I should like to refer to one or two other points. The first, which has been raised in the House before, is whether the Authority is exercising enough influence on the type of trawler being built. Just as limits are being extended everywhere, we find ourselves with a largely

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  modern fleet consisting almost entirely of conventional trawlers. Of course, we are beginning to build unconventional trawlers, like the "Lord Nelson", but predominantly we have a fleet of new conventional trawlers. They are not adapted to a situation in which limits are being extended to 12 miles.
  I believe that the owners are heavily to blame for this. Indeed, they admit that this is not the right way to deal with the new situation. They say that they could not foresee the extension of the limits. I do not believe it. From 1952 onwards, when the first Icelandic struggle started, any intelligent person could have foreseen that we were in for a bad time over the question of limits. The owners ought to have seen this and they ought to have experimented with new types of trawlers before they did.
  The White Fish Authority should certainly have foreseen it. Indeed, it may have done so and done nothing about it. It says in its Annual Report that it is not its task to try to enforce a particular pattern of investment on the industry. Of course, it is not. It has not got the legal power to do so. But it administers all these large sums and it has considerable powers of persuasion, and it could have exercised more persuasion on the industry to start innovating new types of freezers long before it did.
  Similarly, I feel that more research ought to be carried out by the White Fish Authority. This year's Annual Report mentions research into new fishing grounds, but, so far as I know, none is south of the Equator. Certainly, there is no hint in the Report that it is doing any new research into fishing grounds there.
  On quality control, the Authority could do a great deal more than it is doing, for it is extremely complacent about this matter. There is no hon. Member directly from Hull in the Chamber at the moment, but there is one very close to Hull. The White Fish Authority always talks as if the quality control scheme in Hull really works. In fact, many people in the industry think that it is near to being a farce. Lip-service is paid to it by Hull because Hull wants to avoid something stricter. At any rate, it seems to me that this attitude on the part of the Authority
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  towards quality control is also too complacent.
  Lastly—and this is a serious matter, though going slightly away from the Authority—there is the question of the three-man investigation committee at the ports. I, and I am sure many hon. Members, have put a great deal of weight on this, but now we hear that the chairman of the committee, after only twelve months' experience of the industry, is moving into the cereals industry, which no doubt is very important. I do not know whether this is true or not, but if this is so it is absurd and is messing the industry about.
  This man has had a lot of experience during the last twelve months and we know him to be without question a man of extreme ability. It is messing the industry about if this man, having the industry at his fingertips as it were, is to be moved to another department. All the work done by the three-man committee will prove largely wasted because the chairman has gone to another job, and the whole thing will have to start again from scratch.
  Mr. Peart: I mentioned Ministerial changes earlier, but if we are to have changes in the Civil Service as well it will be disastrous.
  Mr. Soames: There are, of course, movements within a Department of officials from one important job to another. This is always happening. Because a man has proved himself efficient in one branch, and to have great knowledge of it, does not mean that he will be left there for ever. It would not be in his interest or in the interest of the Department as a whole.
  Mr. Crosland: Obviously, as a general rule, that is true, but I was pointing out the effects on the fishing industry and that it would appear that the work already done would be wasted and that the whole thing would have to start again. We in Grimsby will have a new man and, presumably, the two same men coming to the port again as a committee of three to interview all the interested bodies and presumably the new chairman will have to learn the whole thing from the beginning. I and many of my hon. Friends believe that by far the most important thing in the fishing industry

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  is not the trawling side. It is the question of the organisation of ports. It is on this that we had placed great hopes which have been disappointed by this news.
  I gather that the chairman of the Authority is now part-time. I believe that on the basis of the amount of money the Authority has to spend and the tasks it has to carry out that it is utterly inappropriate that this body should have a part-time chairman. We know that he is extremely able and we think that he should be full-time. I would not grudge the Authority the extra ½d. if I thought that the body would be made larger and more powerful and have more teeth and would give greater leadership to the industry as a whole. Like the merchants in Grimsby and many other people, I would have considerable doubts about the right-ness of this organisation if it continued on a part-time basis.
  8.4 p.m.
  Lady Tweedsmuir: I agree with the hon. Member for Grimsby (Mr. Crosland) that it would have been far wiser in apportioning the subsidies to have given less to the distant-water fleets and more to the middle-water fleets. At the same time, while I understand the hon. Member's interest in Grimsby and the middle-water fleet there, I should like to devote my remarks particularly to the position of the Scottish owners and the middle-water fleets. I very much regret that these owners have felt it necessary to repudiate this agreement not only by reason of their trading returns but also because they did it so late. While I believe that they have a strong case, I think that contrary to the position with the Scheme which we have just discussed, the Minister also has a case not to make a change at this late hour.
  It is all very well to have had the Royal Assent given to a Measure which took months to go through Parliament and then to ask the Treasury to alter the subsidy rates which were originally agreed to by the whole industry. Nevertheless, I think that we in the Scottish industry made a mistake in agreeing with the British Trawlers' Federation to support the starting rates of subsidy, because I understand that at that time it was suggested that the rates should not be fixed until we had had one more year of trading returns. If we had waited
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  that long, I do not think that we should be in our present difficulties.
  We have to face the fact that the Scottish owners have formed their own federation and that they will have to be regarded separately. It is unfortunate that we do not have a united industry, but it must be remembered that in Scotland, and particularly in Aberdeen, which has the largest preponderance of boats, the industry is entirely dependent on near- and middle-water fleets. There is also the peculiarity not to be found in the larger ports in the South that on the whole these are family businesses, whereas in the big ports, where there are long-distance trawlers, the big companies can balance profit and loss between long-distance and middle-water fleets.
  It is also only fair to say that, as I understand, Granton and Leith did not agree to the original arrangements with the British Trawlers' Federation and they made a specific reservation on this point as long ago as last September. People in Aberdeen very well recognise the principle behind the Sea Industry Act and the Fleck Report—that there should be increased efficiency throughout the industry. The oldest ship sailing from Aberdeen now is only four years old. We are, therefore discussing a very serious position, namely, the future of the Scottish fishing fleet and, in particular, of its major port of Aberdeen.
  What new factor has arisen which has made it so difficult for these fleets which sail from Scotland and particularly from Aberdeen? It is, of course, the lack of fish due to the extension of the fishing limits. It could be said that one would not have needed foresight to know how bad the returns would be, but it must be remembered that the Scottish fleet was encouraged by the Government and the White Fish Authority to build a certain type of boat. Also, that it has been since the building of that type that there has been the extension of the Faroes limit and that there is now the possibility of the further extension of that limit to twelve miles.
  This, therefore, is the excuse for asking the Minister, from now on until the new Session, to give careful thought to the position of the middle water fleets, and, in particular, the Scottish fleet, which has the personal characteristics of

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  a family business and the characteristic of fishing in the Faroes. The hon. Member for Grimsby said that Aberdeen would shortly become a long-distance port because of the removal of the restriction on the number of trips which can be made to fish in Icelandic waters. But I am sure he will appreciate that the removal of this restriction can only be of limited advantage because the boats in question can often fish these Icelandic waters only when the weather is good. This gives them only a limited number of trips in the year.
  It must be realised that in the short time available the Minister has done what he can under the Act and within the powers he holds to try to help in this situation. I welcome the selective moratorium because I am sure that it is fairer even if it does involve the very close accounting of which we have been told. The Scottish owners have throughout repudiated this offer of a moratorium, but I think that it would, as the figures given this afternoon show, make a considerable difference to the possibility of keeping the fleet fishing throughout the year.
  I am very glad also that it is possible to give supplementary payments either for certain classes of boat ox for certain ports on application. I am quite sure that the port of Aberdeen will shortly be applying for the rest of the £120,000 which, I think, is being kept back at the moment out of the total of £350,000.
  In my view, we must look again at the whole matter of principle in making the fishing industry viable within ten years. The Fleck Report itself made a very important reservation that, if there were factors outside the industry's control such as, for instance, the pushing out of fishing limits for conservation purposes, this would be a ground for examining the whole question whether the industry could be viable in ten years. I consider that the time has come seriously to consider whether, in order to avoid these constant rows and disagreements every July with the fishing industry, we ought to regard the industry as one having a claim to be considered on a par with agriculture. This has always been repudiated, but Why?
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  The fishing industry produces food which is considered to be of strategic importance to this country just as agriculture does. It has great international difficulties confronting it. We are a maritime nation still. For strategic reasons alone, we ought to give continuing support, within reason and having regard to efficiency, to the fishing industry as we give it to agriculture. We support agriculture fundamentally for strategic reasons because we know that our community in this country cannot be supported if we do no do our best to make the agriculture industry viable. The fishing industry will try to make itself viable, but, at a time of difficulty, with fishing limits being extended, I suggest that we must make a complete recasting of our thoughts on this problem.
  The figures agreed with the Department in relation to the Scottish fleet are that it is expected that for the near and middle-water fleets the loss in the coming year will be between £4,500 and £6,000 a boat. Aberdeen and Granton and Leith have between them 52 near-water boats and 78 middle-water boats. On 1st August this year, when this new subsidy will come into effect if we pass it tonight, the basic subsidy for these boats will amount to £440,000 which, together with the supplementary fund of £104,350, will total £549,000. In fact, this is £128,000 less than the subsidy in the last financial year.
  The needs estimated for Scotland as a whole are that £1,158,000 is required for the industry to break even, in other words, an increase in subsidy of £609,000 taking the moratorium into account. In 1961–62, the Scottish trawlers received £684,536 which was the equivalent of 29 per cent. of the total United Kingdom subsidy. This year, they will receive the equivalent of 19 per cent. of the total United Kingdom subsidy. Of course, the bone of contention which is very much in people's minds in Scotland is that there should be a subsidy paid of £17 a day for the distant-water fleet as compensation for the loss of its Icelandic fishing. In my view, they have a strong case when they ask also about compensation for the loss of fishing round the Faroes, particularly when one takes into account the size of our boats and the physical limitation placed upon us of

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  taking advantage of fishing very much further afield.
  What owners want in Scotland is a higher rate of subsidy for about two or three years which would give them the opportunity to recast the middle-water fleet, to try to build a few ships which one could describe as small Junellas, not scrapping the whole of our modem fleet but try to recast and remould it. Whether this should have been done before, with guidance and persuasion from the White Fish Authority, is a moot point, but the fact is that this is required now if the Scottish fleet is to survive. Also, it would give time for research and practical experiment 'in regard to new fishing grounds.
  Those sailing from Aberdeen believe that, within three or four years, the effect of conservation may mean that the fish themselves will increase and there will be a greater opportunity for fishing in the North Sea; but there will be, as there is mow, an extremely difficult period ahead. I ask the Under-Secretary of State to give an assurance that the Government will, in consultation with the industry, recast their whole thinking on this matter. The supplementary payments end in December, at the end of the year, and I suggest (that, if some amending legislation could be brought in in the new Session, this could be made to operate in the early part of the year. If we go on waiting for another year, parhaps we shall be able to keep the fleet fishing, but it will mean another year's delay. This is the moment to consider, with the fishing industry, exactly what the future of the Scottish fleet as a whole should be.
  While we may not have a united industry in this country today, in my view, the importance of this industry for Scotland is in the employment it gives in so many of our coastal areas at a time when Scotland as a whole is in great difficulty and is going through a period of great change. I hope that the Government will 'give very serious thought to introducing amending legislation.
  8.22 p.m.
  Mr. Marshall: I hope that my noble Friend the Member for Aberdeen, South (Lady Tweedsmuir) will forgive me if I direct what I have to say more to the speech made by her colleague, my
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  hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen-shire, East (Mr. Wolrige-Gordon).
  The hon. Member for Grimsby (Mr. Crosland) spoke about the tax which the White Fish Authority has to bear. I hope that the Minister will bear this in mind and consider whether the impact of this tax upon the Authority is really necessary.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeenshire, East spoke about fishing limits. I do not share the view of the hon. Member for Grimsby that this is one of the most difficult times to advance any suggestion for extending the limit to six miles. I am rather tired of hearing again and again that this is not really the time to do it and that some foreign country will find itself in greater difficulty in negotiating with us as a consequence. At the end of the day, we in Britain, as far as I can see, do nothing about these matters, and it is about time that we defended our own fishing industry, particularly the inshore fishing industry which means a great deal, by extending the fishing limits. Paragraph 16 of the White Fish Subsidy (United Kingdom) Scheme. 1962. mentions the different subsidies which are being paid to the inshore fishing industry. I am glad to note that in paragraph (a), which deals with eels, mackerel, mullet, and pilchards, which no doubt my hon. Friend 'the Member for St. Ives (Mr. G. R. Howard) has taken deep notice of, the subsidy is 1s. 3d. a stone. That is good, but what I wonder is whether the pilchard industry will last long enough to receive anything.
  Two points arise directly from this. There have been two forms of approach on the part of the White Fish Authority to see what can be done about the pilchard industry. One approach dealt with the catching of pilchards and the other with the question of marketing. I think that fundamentally the authority made a mistake in the beginning. It should have spent the money on the marketing side before dealing with the matter of research.
  Secondly, whatever subsidy is given to the inshore fishing industry or to any type of fish caught by the inshore fishing industry, such as pilchards, one must ensure that it has a capacity to fill the market. When South Africa was part of the British Commonwealth, difficulties

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  arose which we could do nothing about, but now that she is not part of the Commonwealth I fail to see why the Cornish pilchard industry should suffer. It seems that we are not willing to take any action whatsoever about the import of this canned fish, produced by an industry in South Africa whose employment conditions axe far below those which we consider right in this country.
  These may appear to be small matters in some ways. Of course that may be so when talking about an industry which is not very great in itself. But the men and women in this industry have supported this country in innumerable ways when it has been in danger. They have manned the small boats. These are the people on whom we depend at the end of the day, and it is about time that the Government thought in those terms when dealing with the inshore fishing industry.
  I hope that some day some Minister will do something about the two points which I have mentioned. Our fleet— when I use the word "our" I include Scotland—needs defending by increasing the limits of the sea to six miles. We do not want part of that fleet to be annihilated by imports about which we do nothing.
  8.24 p.m.
  Mr. Malcolm MacMillan: I have a great deal of sympathy, as I often have, with the points raised by the hon. Member for Bodmin (Mr. Marshall) in connection with the inshore fishermen, whether they fish for pilchards, for lobsters or for any other fish in the waters around our constituencies. I reinforce once again the hon. Gentleman's plea for greater protection for the people to whom, as he rightly said, we as a nation have turned in war very often for protection and, in peace, for the supply of our food.
  There is a growing danger as the years go by of the concentration into the bigger ports of all the fishing of this country and the consequent decay of the smaller communities. That is a problem which we have particularly in the Scottish Islands and the Highland bays and creeks. As I say. I reinforce the hon. Gentleman's appeal and that of another hon. Member who spoke about the need for greater protection within the fishery limit waters around our coasts.
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  Among the problems mentioned as being most needing of consideration and on which there was a great deal of debate during the Committee stage of the Sea Fish Industry Bill was the lack of local capital for building up modern dual-purpose fleets. That is a problem which we in the Scottish Islands have long had to face. There has been a lack of local capital because of many years and, indeed, generations of ill reward for the fishing industry; partly, also, through the factors mentioned by the hon. Gentleman and partly through the overwhelming competition from other countries Which has, for some reason, been permitted even when our own fishermen were capable of supplying the needs of most of our own markets.
  In addition, there have been runs of bad seasons and fluctuations and vicissitudes in the fortunes of the fishing round our shores. There has been a lack in the Islands, and certain other parts of the country about which I am thinking, of local shelter and adequate harbours, jetties and piers. That is a matter to which Government after Government have addressed too little attention. This is a problem which was repeatedly commented on as much as 70 and 80 years ago by Commissions of investigation into the fishing industry.
  Another problem which I doubt whether these present proposals will solve, although they may mitigate it financially, is that of distance and consequent transport costs to rail and road-heads, especially in the North-West between the islands and the mainland coasts and the markets. That is a problem which probably only two things can solve in part. One is better and specialised transportation of the catch, and the other, which is even more important in the modern processing context, is increased plant and facilities on the spot, or as near the catching spot as possible, for the processing of the catches from the local fishing grounds.
  Another problem which has been referred to so often during the past weeks and months is that of the fishery limits. The hon. Member for Lowestoft (Mr. Prior) expressed concern lest the advice given by a Member representing an Aberdeen constituency were carried out too soon. That advice concerned the

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  extension of the fisheries limits. Goodness knows, this House and successive Governments have had long enough to think about this matter. It would not take anyone by surprise if any Government suddenly extended the fishery limits now. This could have happened 50 years ago, and we would have had fifty years' notice of it even before that. Commissions, local authorities and Members of Parliament representing fishing constituencies have been clamouring for this measure for years. Certainly no one would be taken by surprise if it came about. There may be other demerits about it, but that of surprise is not one of them.
  There is one thing which the Minister may consider doing. I am not sure whether or not it requires legislation. There are precedents for it in other countries, such as Norway. It is to close, at least experimentally, certain fishery areas. I am thinking of areas like the Minch and, possibly, the Moray Firth. The closing of the Minch would have the support of all the Highland local authorities who, indeed, have demanded it. They have mentioned 12 and 6-mile limits, but that was as a compromise. The closing, at least for an experimental period, of the whole Minch area would we understood and, I believe, would be accepted by foreign countries, just as we in practice have had to accept, in spite of the general application of international law, the exceptions which the Norwegians claimed and have been allowed to enforce for several generations.
  Had the Government listened to my own humble submission among many others at the time of the Neven-Spence Report in 1945, which advocated the closing of the Minch for, say, five or seven years to give a chance to the local fleets to be built up with the help of Government capital to make up for the lack of local resources, perhaps by now we should have had a more modern, up-to-date and efficient fleet in the Western Islands and around the northwest Highlands.
  Belatedly, I agree, the Government have come in in a small way and they are operating the Hebrides fishery scheme, but it is very late in the day and the overfishing damage has been done. Many of the grounds have been
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  damaged, and even the trawlers no longer come into the area because it is no longer profitable for them to do so. It has been heavily overfished, as has been the whole of the North Sea, but, naturally, the smaller areas like the Minch arid Moray Firth have been even more heavily depleted. In consequence, if there is less poaching by trawlers today, it is because their own poaching was only too successful in past years.
  Meanwhile, the whole question of policing and of the limits is a live question with the local fishermen and the local authorities. The Minister is well aware of all the arguments in favour of extending the fishery limits and of better policing, with more modern equipment, of the existing limit. While, however, on the one hand, the Government are handing out subsidies, while they are assisting sections of the industry in various ways financially and otherwise, when trying to operate a local scheme like the Western Islands fishery scheme and trading arrangements why on earth do they insist upon rates of interest from beginners, men launching out on these new ventures, of from 6 to 7½ per cent? It is an exorbitant rate to charge these men. In two or three seasons of fishing failure, the debts will pile up and that debt, along with this high rate of interest may do more to discourage all further development of this kind and the development of fishing in general.
  In spite of what my hon. Friend has said, this is the time when, more than ever, the Government should be directly addressing themselves to the closure of the Minch and, as a major, separate issue, the extension of fishery limits generally. These are two questions which can be treated separately. There are examples from other countries of extending the limits. For many years, the Norwegians have claimed in practice the right to follow the shape of their country drawn along the base lines and to extend for several nautical miles beyond the base lines. The Western Island of Scotland and the Shetlands and Orkney, and a good part of the Highlands, too, could well adopt something of the same kind. The base line principle advocacy is something with which the Minister is so familiar that I shall not start arguing it now. It has rightly been argued many times and frequently advocated in this House.

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  I suggest, however, that if the Minister wants to encourage a modern, efficient fleet of dual-purpose vessels which would be able to do all-weather fishing and not lie part-year idle, which would be disastrous at present cost levels for the purpose of making a success of the present policy, he must give adequate protection in the fishing grounds, not only, as the hon. Member for Aberdeen-shire, East (Mr. Wolrige-Gordon) said, against foreign trawlers, but against those vessels of our own trawling fleets who see fit to come within the territorial limits.
  Among the British offenders, it is not only the larger syndicates and the bigger fellows who do all the depredations and damage. As often as not, it is the smaller seine-net men themselves who come in with their little fleets of seven or eight or, sometimes, more vessels into the bays of the Highlands and trawl well under the noses of the fishery protection service.
  The cruisers cannot be everywhere at one time. They cannot all be concentrated in the Lewis bays or around Eriskay or Barra or across at the West Coast—it is unfair and unreasonable to ask them to do so; but it is not unreasonable to ask the Minister to supplement and assist the work of the longer-distance cruisers by means of locally-based speedboats. We do not ask that they should replace the cruisers, although they are uneconomic and are too easily seen by what I might call the enemy miles away and their movements are far too easily signalled from one to another of the poacher fleets and vessels. If, however, the Minister intends to operate what is ostensibly his policy of restoring prosperity, both to the inshore and the other fleets, he must give greater protection within the existing limits as well as contemplate urgent action to extend the limits also.
  We suggest to the Minister that in supplementing the service of the cruisers with the services of locally-based speedboats, manned partly by men who know the local waters and the ways of the local poachers—in other words, they should have a certain number of local men aboard—the Government and their Department should by one means or another also urge the courts of law to
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  enforce higher penalties even within the existing maxima.
  If anything like even the present maximum fines and other penalties were imposed, we could clean up a great deal of the trouble that is harming the inshore fishermen. The difficulty is that when the master of a vessel appears before the local sheriffs, their hearts always seem to melt at the sight of the poor character who has been caught robbing the local fishermen. Some of them take the view, or some courts have done in the past, that the person whom they would like to see in front of them is the owner of the vessel and not the man who carries out their orders or takes a chance on their behalf. I, too, should like to see the owner or some of the directors of the firms and syndicates themselves appearing in court and given some of the publicity that is certainly no more welcome to the skipper than it is to them.
  We should like to see, in some cases, not merely fines imposed. What is more hurtful to people who are prepared to take chances on illegal fishing is the detention of their vessel in port. That could hurt a great deal more than a mere money fine, which very often can be allowed for in the first night's depredations. It can be costed up very nicely in advance.
  These things which we have so often advocated are still the views of the local authorities of Inverness-shire, Ross and Cromarty, Caithness and Sutherland, and also of the fishermen themselves, as well as of every Highland and Island Member in this House. I do not think that any hon. Member representing the Highlands and Islands dissents from my view that the Government should have closed the Minch years ago and, with the aid of the infusion of Government capital, should have helped to build up local fleets to a condition of efficiency and modern methods of fishing which would in time make them independent of subsidy and help them to increase their contribution to the national wealth.
  Somebody has mentioned the Common Market. There are so many Frenchmen, West Germans and Belgians poaching amongst the bays and creeks of the north-west Highlands and the Hebrides that one would swear that we

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  were in the Common Market already. The only step further that those people have to go is to land the whole of their main catch here, instead of taking it back to their own countries, and render our home market position even more disastrous for our own people than it is already.
  One can imagine how resentful and what a deep sense of injustice our fishermen in the Western Isles felt when, a few years ago, they went to sea, at Last, armed with rifles to fight off the poachers. These are men who had learned something in war-time about protecting not only themselves but other people. They and their forebears have been called up in every war in our history. That they were armed with rifles for self-defiance became known to the Press and was splashed in national headlines.
  I wrote to the Prime Minister at the time, four or so years ago. He was horrified by the rifles. He is a man who does not believe in violence, except, of course, when reshuffling the Cabinet. He wrote and said, "For goodness sake, do anything reasonable you like. The fishermen have very great provocation, and I can understand the resentment of the small fishermen who see the big fellows coming in and appearing to be robbing their fishery bays, but do not use violence of any kind." This was shortly after the Tory Government's violence in Suez, and so, of course, the fishermen thought that this caution against violence was rather a joke.
  However, there followed a promise of action by the Secretary of State for Scotland. He is also, unfortunately, one of the departed now since the Government reshuffle. For personal reasons, I am very sorry that that is the case. But there was a promise of action then, and that promise is still open. It has never been honoured. I do not for that blame the departed Secretary of State alone; but I do blame the Government on whose behalf he was speaking, with the Prime Minister's authority behind him, because the Prime Minister's words, in the 'letter to me, were that he was passing this for action to the Secretary of State, and presumably with his full support. So we expected action, and the Lewis men oiled their rifles and stacked them back at their crofts and waited for action, but the Secretary of State took no action.
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  No action has yet been taken. I can assure the hon. Gentleman the Undersecretary of State that the day is coming when, unless something is done about it, it will not take a third world war to bring these men out again with their rifles. It is a measure of their resentment and sense of injustice that they had to resort to that threat against people who provoked them night after night throughout every fishing season, robbers whose fleets they saw, openly lit up as often as not, well inside the limits, off the local island coasts, from Lewis southwards for over a hundred miles to the Barra coast. It is understandable that our Islands fishermen are resentful and feel a deep sense of injustice. I hope that they will not be provoked and forced eventually to violence, but if ever they are, then it must be remembered that it is the Government who must bear a great deal of the blame.
  8.40 p.m.
  Mr. Patrick Wall: I hope that the hon. Member for the Western Isles (Mr. Malcolm MacMillan) will forgive me for not following him into his impending wars in the Highlands and Islands of Scotland, although I do agree with a lot of what he said in his speech, which covered both countries, north and south of the Border. I shall mention fishery limits later in my speech.
  I think that the House will agree that the most important issue raised in the Scheme is the question of the English and Scottish middle-water vessels and whether they are to be paid sufficient subsidies to allow them to continue to operate. Before I consider the future I should like to draw the attention of the House to the immediate background of this matter.
  We start off, of course, with the Fleck Committee. Section 3 of the Committee's Report recommended that an operating subsidy should be paid to all vessels, and that included for the first time the distant-water vessels, and that it should be related to gross proceeds. The Committee suggested 3 per cent. for the distant-water ships and 7 per cent. for the middle-water vessels. It also suggested a special fund for supplementary payments.
  We then come to the Government's reply in Cmnd. 1453, in which they said

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  that they agreed to the general idea of operating subsidies, but, in view of the loss of fishing grounds off Iceland, they suggested that the percentatge paid to the distant water ships should be 5 per cent. and not 3 per cent. They also suggested that year by year there should be, as it were, an annual price review, of the amount paid to each section of the fleet, and they approved the Fleck Committee's recommendation about the supplementary fund and said it should be a total of £3 million, of which £400,000 could be paid in any one year.
  Continuing the background story we then come to the reply of the British Trawlers' Federation to the Government's suggestion, and that is contained in a letter, circulated, I think, to most hon. Members of the House, and dated August, 1961. It asked for a compounded subsidy. In other words, the Federation wanted the operating subsidy and the special fund to be compounded together and the same subsidy to be paid for three years, and then reduced progressively over the next seven years, ending completely in a total of ten years. It was claimed that this would end the uncertainty inherent in an annual price review.
  I understand that under the Fleck recommendations and the Government's amendment of those recommendations the subsidies paid for the three sections of the industry would have been £5·8 per day for inshore vessels, £10·1 per day for middle water vessels, and £19·8 per day for distant water vessels. Under the B.T.F.'s recommendations those figures would be £10, £15, and £20, respectively.
  Then followed a great deal of negotiation with my right hon. Friends and their Departments, and out of the negotiations came an agreement, and that agreement is contained in a letter to the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food from the President of the B.T.F. and the Chairman of the Aberdeen Fishing Vessel Owners' Association. That agreement said that the industry, as represented by the B.T.F. and the Aberdeen Fishing Vessel Owners' Association, would accept an operating subsidy of £9 per day for inshore vessels, £13 for middle water vessels and £15 for distant water vessels and that in the first two years this subsidy would be reduced by
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  not more than 7½ per cent. and in subsequent years by between 7½ and 12½ per cent. They also agreed that there should be a special fund of £2½ million compared with the £3 million already suggested.
  I quote the figures to illustrate the difference between the Government's original proposals and the proposals we are now debating, which have been finally accepted by the owners of English and Scottish vessels. The original proposal for middle-water vessels was roughly £10 per day, and the final figure is £13, an increase of £3; the original proposal for distant-water vessels was £19·8, or a round figure of £20, and the final proposal is £15, a reduction of £5 per day.
  Therefore, I do not think that it can be maintained that the distant-water section has not been prepared to sacrifice a certain amount to help 'the middle-water vessels in the difficulties which they have to face. [HON. MEMBERS: "Come off it."] When the Scottish Association repudiated the agreement which it had quite openly signed and agreed to, it in no way consulted or even informed the British Trawlers Federation that it intended to take this action. We realise that the middle-water vessels, particularly the Scottish ones, are a special case, which should be considered sympathetically. But an operating subsidy of £45 per day seems to me to be a very high one indeed.
  Mr. Hoy: The hon. Gentleman is obviously exaggerating the case to suit the distant-water fleet which he represents, but he ought to be fair and say that there were continual discussions as well as correspondence passing between the B.T.F. and the Aberdeen owners and certainly the Newhaven and Granton Trawler Owners' Association. He is not correct in seeking to convey the impression to the House that nothing like that happened.
  Lady Tweedsmuir: May I point out to my hon. Friend the Member for Haltem-price (Mr. Wall) that the Scottish trawler owners, to break even, asked for £25 or £33 a day, according to length? Those figures are very different from the subsidies being presented to the House now.
  Mr. Wall: On the first point, the agreement, which is contained in a letter to the Association dated 30th October, 1961, says:
  "If these proposals are acceptable to the Government, both the Federation and the Association would be glad to give their full support to the speedy passage of legislation to bring them into effect."
  That is a perfectly clear and categorical acceptance of the arrangements, freely entered into with the Government.
  I do not want to be castigated too much by my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen, South (Lady Tweedsmuir) or the hon. Member for Edinburgh, Leith (Mr. Hoy). I have admitted that the middle-water fleet is in a difficult position, particularly the Scottish section, but we have to remember that it can now fish off Iceland. The moratorium has been mentioned by my right hon. Friend, and he has a lot of supplementary payments in his pocket which could be used in certain cases to help. The real point is that the difficulties, particularly in Scotland, are probably only temporary.
  Mr. Hoy: The hon. Gentleman says that his right hon. Friend has a lot of money in his pocket to give away. Will he say how much there is? What is he talking about?
  Mr. Wall: My right hon. Friend has money for supplementary payments—
  Mr. Hoy: How much?
  Mr. Wall: —of which £350,000 can be used a year. I understand that this year he has £120,000 which has not yet been allocated. I am sure that if I am wrong my right hon. Friends will correct me. I see him nodding, so I assume I am right. That is quite a sum of money, and is can be augmented year by year.
  I was making the point that the difficulties facing the middle-water vessels, particularly the Scottish vessels, may be only temporary. If we go into the European Economic Community, then the partners in the Common Market must agree that the limits will be abolished by 1970 or that there must be a common limit existing between all the partners by 1970.
  That would do a very great deal to help the middle-water vessels (based on Aberdeen, or elsewhere. It will be a
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  great help if Norway and Denmark come in, as, presumably, they will, and it may be that Iceland will be forced to join the Community. These countries will then have to negotiate a common limit, and we shall have a considerable amount of say in those negotiations if the Treaty of Rome is taken to mean what it says in the appropriate clause. However, that still leaves the difficulties of this coming year before a final decision is made. I hope, therefore, that the proposals of my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen, South will be given very careful consideration.
  We have heard about the extension of the limits for Iceland, Norway and the Faroes. But what about the limits for the United Kingdom? It seems to me that we should do something about this most important matter. There are two lines of policy which may be adopted, a positive or a negative one. Regarding the positive policy, I suggest to my right hon. Friend that he does what he can to increase the number of patrol vessels. There are not enough of them at present. I know that this would impose a strain upon he Royal Navy, but it would provide good training.
  To increase the extent of their coverage perhaps it would be possible to operate helicopters from these vessels. Modern survey vessels and frigates carry helicopters as part of their equipment and helicopters could be used to check poaching witihin the existing limits. The hon. Member for the Western Isles referred to the necessity to impose suitable fines upon poachers similiar to those imposed by the Icelandic authorities upon our vessels. That would soon stop this practice.
  From the negative point of view, I support the extension of our limits to six miles from headland to headland. I accept the suggestion of the hon. Member for Grimsby (Mr. Crosland) that it is not wise to do so just as we are deciding whether to enter the European Economic Community. There is also the question of the Faroe negotiations. I have a suspicion that these will not be concluded until a decision has been arrived at about whether Denmark and Britain will enter E.E.C. But surely we can do something now. Cannot we get rid of the anomalies which exist, particularly those relating to Scotland?

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  I do not wish to become involved in Scottish matters any more than I am already, but I should like the Undersecretary of State for Scotland to give a direct answer on this matter. We have heard a lot about the Minch, the Firth of Clyde and the Moray Firth. A letter from various fishermen's associations, addressed to the Secretary of State for Scotland, includes a definite request and I should like to know whether it is reasonable and could be granted. They ask for
  "the immediate enforcement of the provisions of the Herring Fishery (Scotland) Act 1889 as interpreted by the High Court of Justiciary in the case of Mortensen v. Peters in 1906. … The effect of this would be to ban trawling by foreign vessels in the Moray Firth, the Firth of Clyde and the other Scottish estuaries and firths enumerated in the Schedule to that Act."
  It seems to make sense and would be justice to subject foreign vessels to the same laws as British vessels and I cannot see why that should not be done. I hope that the Under-Secretary will deal with the point.
  Fundamentally, the whole question of limits arises from the need for conservation, as I am sure the hon. Member for Caithness and Sutherland (Sir D. Robertson) would agree. I am particularly worried about the industrial fishing which is going on, especially by the Danes. We shall not get anywhere with this problem until we have an international agreement and inspection. That should foe one of the matters to be considered by the partners in E.E.C. if the Community is extended to include our membership.
  I understand that research is paid for by the Government and toy the White Fish Authority and, as has already been mentioned, the Authority wishes to put up its levy by another ½d. to pay for more (research. I should like to quote a paragraph from an article in the Fish Trades Gazette, which states:
  "Among those primarily concerned with research and experimental work on commercial fisheries there are the laboratories of the Fishery Departments, and of the D.S.I.R.; the recently appointed Experimental Work Advisory Group; the Herring Industry Board and the White Fish Authority, with its retinue of consultative committees and advisory panels. To this already-crowded field the authority now intends to add a further runner in the form of an industrial development unit."
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  The article goes on to suggest that there should be far better co-ordination among the research organisations. I hope that the Minister will take this matter up through the White Fish Authority to see what can be done to get co-ordination among these authorities which are trying in various ways to do the same job.
  I suggest that the subsidy rates that we are discussing are fair, but this is only an interim measure because the whole picture facing the fishing industry, particularly the middle-water industry, will be affected by the decision whether or not this country joins the European Economic Community. Whatever individual views on the Common Market may be, it seems that the fishing industry will greatly benefit from our joining the Common Market.
  8.56 p.m.
  Sir David Robertson: The main issue in this debate is the question of the Scottish trawler owners operating from Granton and Newhaven, and Aberdeen.
  The Government, in 1951 and onwards, pressed the Aberdonians and the New-haven people to renew their fleets. Everywhere old vessels had been written off for many years before they were ultimately made obsolete, and they were making money operating in these over-fished grounds. They responded to the appeal of the Government to accept grants and loans to rebuild their fleets. They have done that in recent years, but it is not paying. The reason is that the capital cost is very high, much higher than non-capital cost of the written off craft. The main reason why they are not profitable is that they are not catching fish in sufficient quantities to make it pay. In spite of the very high prices which are ruling, they are losing money.
  One may ask why the middle-water trawlers from Grimsby, Hull, Fleetwood and Milford Haven, which apparently are making ends meet, do not join with the Scottish Trawler Owners but want to adhere to the agreement? I think that the answer is that the Humber, Hull, Fleetwood and other ports work co-operatively. Most of the big groups have their own repair shops, their stores, supplies and victualling departments and

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  plough back the profits to the voyage account of each individual ship. I do not think that is done in Aberdeen, but it is something which is worth investigation. By talking steps to help those in most need that will come out.
  The basic problem is that the fish are not there. I have said in this House for twenty-three years—my hon. Friend the Member for Haltemprice (Mr. Wall) and other hon. Members may be tired of hearing me say it—that I remember the days when fish were prolific. In the early days of this century there was an abundance of fish which were selling cheaply all over the country. That was because the grounds had been fished by steam trawlers only since 1892 or 1893, a limited time compared with the time that the North Sea has been in existence. I congratulate the Government on what they have done.
  They have dealt well with this problem, and I think that the supplementary moneys which are to be made available will prove helpful to Aberdeen. I hope they will be applied if the need is there. I urge hon. Members who make the claim, such as I have made, that our limits should be extended to seek to get all the nations whose joint heritage is the North Sea to come together and agree to rest these grounds. I do not think that closing some of the grounds for seven years, as the hon. Member for the Western Isles (Mr. Malcolm MacMillan) suggested, is the answer. The answer is to give the fish a chance of spawning. We give salmon and trout a chance to spawn and we give grouse and other game birds a chance to reproduce their species, but we do not give cod, haddock and herring, which are so much more important, a chance of survival. Successive Governments have allowed the grounds to be over-fished.
  Mr. Malcolm MacMillan: My suggestion was rather a throw-back to a recommendation which I made as a minority comment at the time of the Neven-Spence Report at the end of the war. We had in mind the very point with which the hon. Member is concerned—conservation and an opportunity to rest the grounds. Immediately before the recommendation was made, during the war, places like Broad Bay in Lewis had had this opportunity, and
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  afterwards they yielded tremendous amounts of first-class fish from 1946 onwards, when they were open to fishing again. The rest did them a lot of good, and another seven years would have done them even more good.
  Sir D. Robertson: I appreciate that, but the hon. Member will no doubt recollect asking me in a recent fishing debate how the Canadian and American halibut conservation agreement was working. I told him that according to the best information I had, it was doing wall and had begun to show signs of results within one year of the quantitative control being introduced. Halibut is the No. 1 white fish in that ocean, and the scheme was introduced by two friendly neighbouring nations, and it began immediately to prove successful
  From my experience following World War I and World War II, I am convinced that if grounds had a chance to be rested, as they were in those days, despite the nation's great need for food, there would be plentiful supplies. In those days the middle-water craft fished right up against the minefields and produced a lot of fish, but when the war ended there were supplies in abundance —but not for long. The trawlers soon went to work, going back to the same place day after day and particularly during spawning seasons when fish, heavily in spawn, are easily caught.
  I am tired of making these appeals, and possibly hon. Members are equally tired of hearing them, but this is the only answer to the problem. Things will have to be made worse before they are better. But there is a great opportunity. The seas are enormous; there is far more sea than there is land area. Off the coasts of Africa and South America there are abundant supplies of fish. I know that the Advisory Committee of Industry has been working with officials in the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food looking into these grounds and considering the edibility of the fish there. I cannot speak of Equatorial Africa, but I have knowledge of South Africa. I ate fish almost daily there because I enjoyed it so much. The species were different from ours but were very palatable.
  The hope of Aberdeen lies in using these fine, modern trawlers, which are capable of going anywhere and fishing

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  anywhere in the world. Diesel-engined craft can be refuelled from a mother ship. A mother ship is essential unless there are shore bases—which are preferable but which raise all kinds of other difficulties. I have been talking to some friends in the industry who seem to be fearful about mother ships, but I cannot see that there will be any difficulty about them. The trawlers themselves would no longer carry ice and their holds would be available for freezing their catches as they came on board. A frozen catch could be taken to the mother ship, and the catch would be preserved from the moment it was brought on board. The mother ship could freeze even more and could cold-store refrigerated transport ships could come alongside the mother ship—
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Sir Robert Grimston): This is very interesting, but I think that it is getting far from the Order.
  Sir D. Robertson: I apologise, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, for going out of order. I will pass on. I have always tried to make constructive speeches on an industry about which I know something. I have some experience of expedition fishing. It is no good year after year going back to the same grounds to get diminished quantities of fish. That is what is happening. It has been happening for a long time. Nobody can deny that. It is happening with distant-water grounds, too. The distant-water people are very good companions in the way that they immediately agreed to the middle-water craft going to the grounds to which they normally went. There is a very fine feeling in the catching side of the industry. It applies even to other nations. Our trawling industry has always been very friendly with the Germans and others. There are great international communities in these distant-water grounds. In the early days when we went up from Hull and Grimsby we were about the only people fishing there. Now craft from all nations fish there. Now that Aberdeen craft and other North Sea craft go fishing in distant waters I hope that it will make their year's return more profitable.
  However it would be utter folly to go on hoping, like Mr. Micawber, that something will turn up. If we did that,
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  we should only be postponing an evil day. We have been doing that for far too long. The Government must face up to the situation. Subsidies are fundamentally wrong. Any industry up against it would be entitled to say that the Government must subsidise it. Where will it end? Where is the money coming from? I wholeheartedly approve of what the Government have done in this case, but I warn them. Their own officials and advisers must know this. It is not only white fish that is over fished. Herrings, are over fished. They have almost vanished. A week or two ago my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeenshire, East (Mr. WolrimGordon) asked what had happened to herring. I think that the answer was that it is just a natural thing that has happened. It is the most unnatural thing that has ever happened. They have been fished out at spawning time by trawlers which found out where the spawning took place off Buchan Ness and on Smith's Knoll off the East Anglian Coast. It is a history of over-fishing and successive Governments for years past have been blameworthy.
  I do not think I shall ever make another speech like this, because I am so tired of it. I referred to this in my maiden speech, when fish food was terribly important to the nation. During the Second World War I made many speeches on the subject. The Coalition Government responded, but unfortunately it has now become an issue between the parties. Money is provided to try to keep the vessels afloat.
  The Aberdonians who are refusing the moratorium—the cessation of their payments, if they are not able to make them —are honourable men. Perhaps they realise that this would just postpone the day of bankruptcy, to the detriment of the other creditors. I hope that the Government will pay some attention to this. They think that what I advocate is right for salmon and trout and other wild life but not for these fish. Yet the ordinary sea fish—cod, haddock, and so on—are vitally important as food for the public.
  9.9 p.m.
  Mr. G. R. Howard: I want to make three points very shortly. I support what my hon. Friend the Member for Bodmin (Mr. Marshall) said about the inshore

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  situation, and especially about pilchards. We are grateful for the subsidy, but my right hon. Friend will remember that a year ago I brought a deputation to him on this subject. We were hoping for answers in September. We have not got the answers yet. We still do not know what is happening.
  As my hon. Friend said earlier, if something is not done soon we may get to a stage where we will not have an industry to help. Then, as the last straw, we have South Africa, which is no longer a member of the Commonwealth but which still gets Commonwealth Preference. What justification there can be for that, I just cannot see.
  My right hon. Friend said that these measures will help all sections of the industry, but he knows jolly well what I am about to say. The one section they do not help—and I make no apologies for having made this point time and again for at least eight years, and I shall go on making it as long as I am in this House—is the shell fishermen. What are called Dublin Bay prawns, or scampi, are caught by trawlers, and that trade is flourishing, but some of the men in Morecambe Bay who are catching shrimps are not flourishing, and the shell fishermen in my part of the country are not flourishing, either.
  One of the reasons is this. My right hon. Friend may have seen that at a meeting of inshore interests the other day it was agreed that every 24 hours of the day at least 150 foreign trawlers are poaching in our territorial waters. A large number of those poaching in my area are Frenchmen, who can come in because of our present limits.
  It was for that reason that in debating an earlier Order I asked for enlightenment about sea fisheries committees having their own boats. The reply was that that would be a very expensive business, but that is not the right idea. What we need is a much smaller and faster vessel which can keep at sea locally based, manned locally, and with a local man in command who knows the waters, and knows where the Frenchmen are likely to be.
  We know that today it is difficult for the Royal Navy to produce small vessels for the fisheries protection squadron, but
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  we want small vessels, with good sea-keeping qualities, and manned by fishermen who are a jump ahead of the Frenhmen. Why cannot we have some assistance to build those ships? We have one already in Cornwall, and other sea fisheries committees have them, too. As a result of the complexities of an Order still to be discussed, we shall have greater problems in policing the area, and small vessels such as these might help.
  I want to emphasise what has been said about research. We have Torry, and Plymouth, the White Fish Authority and a number of other bodies, one of which was mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Haltemprice (Mr. Wall), all doing research work, but it is highly important that there should be real coordination of their work so that they are not all working independently on their own. There should be properly co-ordinated research in the industry, otherwise we might have the White Fish Authority going in for one thing, Torry doing something else, and Plymouth researching something entirely different. There should be proper co-ordination of all these different forms of research, with full interchange of information.
  While I agree with the comments of the hon. Member for Grimsby (Mr. Crosland) about fishing limits, it should be remembered that, unfortunately for the inshore industry, it always seems to be the wrong moment. This applies to discussions re the Faroes at the moment. This brings me to the question of our entering the Common Market. People often speak optimistically about this, but do they really think that, if we enter E.E.C. the Icelanders or the Danes will automatically revise their limits or that they will allow our trawlers back in their waters? That is pure wishful thinking.
  From the Scottish point of view, for heaven's sake let the Government do something about the Moray Firth, the Minch and the Clyde. How the situation has been allowed to develop and why it has been allowed to go on for so long, I do not understand. Something really must be done. Only if the Government take some action will the fishermen see Chat something is being done about conservation. Let us show everyone, even before we go into the Common Market negotiations, that we are prepared to do

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  something about our fishing limits. A new scheme for fishery protection vessels, as suggested, would show our inshore men that we really want to help them.
  We are grateful for assistance from the Government, but they should remember that help to a non-existent fishing fleet will be no good to anyone.
  9.17 p.m.
  Mr. Prior: The closing remarks of the Minister's speech referred to the Common Market. I understand that my right hon. Friend goes to Brussels at the end of this week and will be talking about agriculture and fishing. He bears a heavy responsibility and the farming and fishing industries are looking to him to obtain for us reasonable conditions should we enter the Common Market. The fishing industry—
  Mr. Peart: And horticulture.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Sir William Anstruther-Gray): We cannot now discuss horticulture and agriculture.
  Mr. Prior: I had intended to say that we all wish my right hon. Friend good luck in the difficult negotiations he will be undertaking.
  This has been a difficult year for the fishing industry as a whole. It has experienced a good many set backs, many of which, I hope, will not be repeated in future years. The speech of my noble Friend the Member for Aberdeen, South (Lady Tweedsmuir) showed clearly the difficulties under which the Scottish fleet has been operating and these hardships apply equally elsewhere. I suppose that my constituents have experienced this last winter some of the worst conditions for a long time. Apart from the weather, there have been increased imports—at a time when we did not want them—and the potato shortage with extremely high prices for potatoes. This has had a marked effect on the demand for fish, for example; the fish and chip shops not requiring so much. All this has meant the price of fish falling to an unremunerative level and, at the same time, there have been increased costs to the fishing industry.
  The supplementary fund, which is designed to help out certain sections of the fleet in special circumstances, is
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  important. There is stall left in the fund £120,000 and some of it will have to go to Aberdeen and Grimsby. Some of it, I think, will also have to go to Lowestoft, and it will be seen that not much will be left. My right hon. Friend may, therefore, have to consider the Fund again because although it is desirable that the fishing fleet should stand on its own feet, that may not be possible. More than the £2½ million at present allowed for over the ten year period may have to be increased.
  I want to ask one or two questions. Is depreciation taken into account in the profit and loss accounts of the trawlers when they are submitted to the Minister? I got the impression that the Minister intends to disregard completely the depreciaition, and that would not be correct. Will he say whether or not the supplementary fund can be brought in at any time and cut off at any time, so that if the industry find that it is doing better it can do without it and if it is needed it can have it? I do not think that it is something that should go on for a long time if it is not required.
  My own port has had a rough time during the last year and particularly in the last four months. I understand that when applications for supplementary funds were reviewed accounts for only the last four months were produced. This was not considered a long enough period in which to judge the profitability of that section of the industry, whereas if accounts could be produced for a longer period to show that it was losing a lot of money that would have been taken into consideration. For how long has a section of the industry to be doing badly before the supplementary fund can be administered?
  Finally, on the question of the White Fish Authority, I agree very much with what was said by the hon. Member for Grimsby (Mr. Crosland). Apart from the Income Tax assessment which must strike anyone as being quite ridiculous, there are some other items in the White Fish Authority's accounts which worry me. For example, I am not certain that it is the White Fish Authority's job to carry out publicity on behalf of the fishing industry. This should be left to the very large firms or groups of firms which are publicising their own policy. To spend £74,000 in this way is a waste. We

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  cannot get enough publicity for £74,000 to do any good, and in any case it is not the White Fish Authority's job. I hope that item of expenditure will be looked at carefully, and also the cost of administration. This has gone up considerably in the last few years from a total of £137,000 in 1960–61 to £143,000 this year and an estimate of £162,000—
  Mr. Speaker: Order. What on earth have the expending activities of the White Fish Authority to do with this Scheme? The hon. Member may submit that is in order, but I do not for the moment follow how it is in order.
  Mr. Prior: The White Fish Authority administers subsidies on behalf of the Minister and I would have thought that as discussion has been allowed in this debate so far on the White Fish Authority I was in order.
  Mr. Speaker: I can understand that the distribution of the money available or perhaps the inefficiency in the distribution of it is justified, but I think that the hon. Gentleman is near the borderline.
  Mr. Prior: I am very grateful to you. Mr. Speaker, for your advice. I should not like to pursue the matter at length except to say that the fishing industry is extremely worried about the activities of the White Fish Authority at the moment in the maldistribution of some of the money that it receives from the industry. I hope that my right hon. Friend will look very carefully at the affairs of the White Fish Authority before he allows it to increase the levy which it proposes to increase at the moment.
  Concerning experimental work, I understood from the Fleck Committee's Report that this was to be a responsibility of the Government. It now appears that the White Fish Authority is to undertake this work and that the cost of doing so will come out of the White Fish Authority. I did not understand in the first place that this was the intention.
  To sum up, I hope the industry will have a good year. I hope my right hon. Friend will realise the difficulties that it is going through, and I trust that next year when we debate these provisions again he will either have a happier tale
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  to tell or he will be able to do something more to help this industry.
  9.25 p.m.
  Mr. Hoy: In a very long and interesting debate we have travelled from Greenland to Africa. There has been mention of conservation and action against foreign countries. I know, Mr. Speaker, that you would rule me out of order if I were to attempt to cover those subjects. Therefore, I shall merely content myself by saying that I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for the Western Isles (Mr. Malcolm MacMillan) and that action is called for to protect the fishing grounds against the depredations of foreign trawlers.
  This Scheme extends these subsidies for ten years, and I must tell the Minister this evening what I said on Second Reading when the Bill from which the Scheme flows was introduced. I am glad to have the support of the hon. Lady the Member for Aberdeen, South (Lady Tweedsmuir). I said during the Second Reading debate, and I repeat, that I thought the industry was foolish to agree to write into this agreement that in ten years' time in would be viable and that no more subsidy would be necessary. I thought that the industry was wrong then and I think that it is still wrong. That is why I do not approve of these Statutory Instruments as they are drafted.
  As I said earlier today, whether we take these Statutory Instruments separately or together they will not provide a solution to the difficulties that confront the fishing industry. We are living in a fool's paradise if we think that they will.
  I was a little surprised at hon. Members opposite, especially the hon. Member for Haltemprice (Mr. Wall), who, I am sorry to say, is not here at the moment, saying that this agreement, having been reached, is sacrosanct and that we must never make changes even if we find that mistakes have been made. Even the Scheme has been changed since it was presented. One only has to look at the names on the Scheme. It was promoted by the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, and it bears the name "John S. Maclay", who, apparently, was Secretary of State for Scotland and has now departed from that office. There is a

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  further change. It was signed by a Lord Commissioner of the Treasury, a "Mr. Michael Noble". I understand that he is now Secretary of State for Scotland. Therefore, even the Scheme itself has changed. We cannot have control over all these things. If we find that a mistake has been made, even if the Minister himself makes a mistake, the House is always ready and willing to accept an apology. It is much better to own up to a mistake rather than persist in it.
  The British Trawlers Federation signed that agreement. It does not seek to deny it. I do not know why the hon. Member for Haltemprice made such a to-do about it. Perhaps he wanted to speak tonight because he was not present during our debates on the Sea Fish Industry Bill. I believe that he was in Africa at the time. Of course, he has a right to go to Africa if he wants to go there, but he must not seek to make up for lost time tonight. Meetings were held with the fisheries committees of both parties. They did not seek to hide the fact that they had signed the agreement. Those who attended either of the meetings are bound to admit that they were, if not coerced, certainly pressed into making this agreement so as not to show any division within the British Trawlers' Federation, or between the Federation, the Aberdeen Association and the Government. I think that that is a fair summary of the situation. Indeed, the Newhaven and Granton Trawler Owners' Association wrote to the B.T.F. and said that the proposal would in no way meet their position.
  It is no secret to tell the House that the B.T.F. said, "Let us go on negotiating, but do not let us show any differences. Let us show solidarity in the matter". So this agreement was reached. But it was not long before the trawler owners of Scotland came to the conclusion that what was contained in these proposals would not meet the needs of the Scottish situation. They have gone further, because today they have sent telegrams, which, no doubt, most hon. Members have received, asking us to vote against the proposals and saying that if we accept them it means the collapse of the Scottish trawling industry and a serious threat to employment. They say, also,
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  that the situation would be no less serious for the near and middle-water trawlers in England.
  It is true that these provisions will have a greater impact in Scotland because there are more family businesses there than there are large concerns as there are in the constituencies represented by the hon. Member for Haltemprice and my hon. Friend the Member for Grimsby (Mr. Crosland). If my information is correct, there is an association in Grimsby which will collect more subsidies under these schemes than will the whole Scottish fleet put together.
  Mr. Wall: They catch more fish.
  Mr. Hoy: I thought that this might provoke the hon. Member. I know that they catch more fish. I am not saying that they do not. It is unfortunate that as soon as one says something about which the hon. Member is stuck for an argument he immediately goes on to something else. I do not deny that they catch more fish, but surely he will not deny that if these small industries went out in Scotland it might mean the collapse of a whole village.
  Mr. Crosland: On this point of family businesses the impression was given by the hon. Lady the Member for Aberdeen, South (Lady Tweedsmuir) and my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh, Leith (Mr. Hoy) that the English middle-water fleet consists entirely of giant combines. This is not correct. In Grimsby a large part of the middle-water fleet consists of family businesses in the same way as it does in Aberdeen.
  Mr. Hoy: I agree that that is so, and I shall have something to say about it before I finish. If my hon. Friend will allow me to deal with the Scottish position first, I shall come south of the Border later.
  During the past few weeks I have had the privilege of meeting one or two owners from the constituency of the hon. Member for Lowestoft (Mr. Prior), not that I went out of my way to do so but I was in the vicinity on other parliamentary business, and they, also, had a story to tell me. All I say is that these proposals will in no way meet the needs of the Scottish trawler owners, and the Secretary of State for Scotland,

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  if not the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, must take cognisance of this.
  The reason why there has been this difference of opinion between Scottish owners and the British Trawlers' Federation is not that they want to be at war with each other—far from it. The Scottish owners came to the conclusion that the distant water fleet had such great power inside the B.T.F. that in the case of the middle-waiter trawler owner was apt to get lost in the process of negotiations. They said that if the special difficulties of Scotland were to be recognised that could best be done by a purely Scottish association. That is why the Scottish Trawler Owners' Association has been formed. To suggest, as some have suggested, that it is only the Scottish owners who are complaining is quite wrong.
  I had a letter from a trawler owner with a fairly large business in Lowestoft, a man with whom I have been personally friendly for many years, and he complained about the position of his middle-water fleet. I sent his letter to the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, and the right hon. Gentleman said that he would go into the figures which this owner had provided.
  The peculiar feature was that the losses estimated by this particular owner approximated to the losses of the Scottish trawler owners. The hon. Member for Lowestoft must know that the vessels in this section of the fleet in Lowestoft have been making considerable losses this year. Although the Minister says that we cannot go on only one year, the past year, he cannot deny that these losses have continued this year and that boats in the middle-water fleet in Scotland and in Lowestoft—at least in the section of which I know— are making losses of from £4,000 to £6,000 per annum. The situation is not getting any better, and this is the situation which we must meet.
  The hon. Member for Haltemprice says that a subsidy of £45 a day would be necessary, as if this were the only answer to the problem. I have argued times without number that a subsidy is not in itself a solution to the problem, but it might be as well, in view of the position of the Scottish economy today, when
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  so many of our basic industries are disappearing, that this price should be paid for the next two or three years to keep the industry going. The alternative can only be unemployment, and this will be much more expensive.
  This is why the Scottish trawler owners have asked us to oppose these proposals. This gives us not great satisfaction. The difficulty about measures of this kind is that, by opposing them, one denies assistance which one can give to other sections of the fleet and even the mediocre assistance offered to the Scottish fleet. This is the difficulty we face tonight.
  It has been suggested that it is only the middle-water vessel owner who complains. Nothing of the kind. Great tributes have been paid in the House today to certain vessels which have been built recently, vessels which are regarded as experimental, and tributes have been paid on this occasion, as on many others, to the firm which has built and is now operating the Fairtrys. These vessels cost about £450,000, three times the cost of a normal fishing vessel. I have raised this matter before because, although it does not fish from my constituency, the headquarters of the parent company which built these vessels is in my constituency. This company has said to the Minister that the boasted £15 may be all right as a daily payment to a company which has built a trawler costing £150,000, but what about those who have built vessels at a cost of £450,000?
  If the argument of the hon. Member for Haltemprice has any weight, this company should have his support. I do not know why he did not speak up for it tonight. Vessels of this kind, apparently, catch three times as much as is caught by a conventional trawler, but only the same amount of subsidy is paid. The company argues, quite logically, I think, just as the middle-water fleet owners say that they are not getting sufficient, that the subsidy it is being paid does not in any way compensate for the tremendous outlay it has had in building these vessels or for the catches which they bring in.
  All that I am pointing out is that the complaint comes not only from the middle-water fleet, but from the people who have spent money on building this type of vessel, to Which great tributes

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  have been paid. Although we have sent all the relevant facts to the Ministry, they have had no satisfaction from the replies which they have received. Therefore, at the end of the day they have willy-nilly to accept the proposals laid down in the Scheme.
  A very serious problem confronts the Scottish trawler fleet. The Under-Secre-tary of State cannot escape that. It is obvious that this Scheme will in no way meet the situation. The Minister should be forthright and should make up his mind on whether it is just to sink—that is the right word—into oblivion. Is be prepared to make up his mind that it should go if it is economically impossible for it to live? Must it go? If that is the case, let the Minister say so quite openly and fairly, and then the industry will know where it is and Scotland will know what to expect.
  If the Minister does not want this industry to go, what does he propose to do for it? That is a decision which rests only with the Government. The owners in Scotland do not regard the moratorium as any solution of their problem. They are worried about the £175,000 per annum which they are behind in their repayments to the White Fish Authority. Merely to say to them, "You will not have to pay what you owe us for the next two years" is no solution. All that that does is to put off the evil day, and eventually the repayments will be greater than ever.
  In paragraph 7 of the proposals which govern the granting or otherwise of a moratorium, it is made clear that
  "interest will be charged on the sums overdue in accordance with normal commercial practice."
  To think that by granting a moratorium for two years the owners will not only be able to meet their present commitments, but will be able to meet their back payments as well plus 6¼ per cent., is just nonsense.
  A great deal of the money owed by the industry is not the repayment of capital but the very heavy interest charges imposed because of the Government's policy. This applies not only to the fishing industry, but to agriculture, housing, and so on. If the Government wanted tonight to make a real contri-
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  bution to solving the difficulties of this section of the industry, the best thing which they could have done was to make a substantial cut in the interest charges imposed by them. To insist on these high charges is to maintain the existing high debt.
  I wonder whether any hon. Gentleman has ever heard of proposals such as these before an owner qualifies for the moratorium. The White Fish Authority will be able to go to every business and to send its accountants to look at the books. It will be able even to deny an owner the right to go in for new development without the Authority's approval. No director will get a fee, nor will any emolument be paid unless the permission of the Authority has been obtained. A sort of Gestapo has to go in on behalf of the Authority before a moratorium is approved. No self-respecting business would allow it to take place. The Minister must, therefore, find something different from the moratorium for solving the difficulties.
  We shall look forward to what the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland has to say. His is a great responsibility tonight. He must, at the very least, be able to give us an assurance that the Scheme is not the final word of the Government concerning Scotland nor of those sections of the middle-water fleet who experience the same difficulty. If he cannot do that, let the country understand that he is, as has been said by the Scottish Trawler Owners' Association, condemning them. Scotland cannot afford to lose another of her basic industries.
  9.46 p.m.
  Mr. Leburn: We have had a wide-ranging debate on the two Schemes and the Order, and many interesting points and suggestions have been made from both sides of the House. I should like to start by taking up some words of the hon. Member for Workington (Mr. Peart), who in opening the debate said that fishing has not had too easy a time. We would all agree with that. Certainly, I should be the last to be too optimistic for the industry. At the same time, however, it has been appreciated that not all the difficulties, but the main ones, facing the industry concern the near and middle-water trawlers, not only those of

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  Scotland, although I know fully about the trawlers both of Granton and Aberdeen. In discussing these United Kingdom Measures, we must be fair and remember that there are other near and middle-water trawlers in England and south of the Border which, at the same time, are also experiencing difficulty.
  I agree very much with my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen, South (Lady Tweedsmuir) in saying that she regretted that the Scottish owners had found it necessary to repudiate the tripartite agreement which they made with the B.T.F. and with the Government. I, too, very much regret that they have found it necessary to do do this. At the same time, as my right hon. Friend the Minister said in opening the debate, the Government have to take into account that all the members of the B.T.F., comprising 530 out of 670 boats, are adhering to that agreement. Therefore, the Government have to take that fact very much into consideration.
  What do we do about Aberdeen? My right hon. Friend and I have given deep and careful thought to the point. We have met trawler owners both from Aberdeen and from Granton in what, I understand, is now the new Scottish Trawlers' Association, although at the time we mat them it had not been formed. My right hon. Friend listened carefully to all the points they made.
  It has been brought out in the debate that there are three matters in which the Government can help. First, as my right hon. Friend said, we are lifting the ban on fishings in distant waters. We should not underestimate the importance of this. It could be very important that some of the bigger vessels in the middle-water fleet should be able to go to distant waters and catch fish. Not only will that in itself help, but it will also relieve the amount of fishing which is taking place in the middle and near waters. Secondly, there is the question of deferred repayment of loans, which has been fully explained tonight. Thirdly, there is the supplementary fund. It is interesting—it is very natural, and I understand it—that various hon. Members, be they from Grimsby or Lowestoft or Aberdeen, are already starting to try to put their finger on that supplementary fund, or what is left of it. Here I would tell my hon. Friend the Member for Lowestoft (Mr. Prior) that of course these
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  amounts need not be fox any specific time. Orders can be brought in later to allocate what is left of the fund, provided, of course, we keep within the limits laid down by the Act of £350,000 a year and a total of £2½ million over ten years.
  After our full debate and the close understanding which all hon. Members have shown of this subject, I would not think it would be necessary for me to go fully into the background of the matter, the Fleck Committee's Report and the Government's White Paper leading to negotiations. I think all hon. Members fully understand the position. If I may I will go back for a moment to the Scottish position because the hon. Member for Edinburgh, Leith (Mr. Hoy) challenged me to face up to it.
  I want to say this to him. While he may say and while the fishermen of Aberdeen may say that the industry there is faced with collapse, I do not believe that that is so. We in this House know the resiliency and the ingenuity and the efficiency of fishermen in all parts of great Britain, and I know about it in Scotland. We know, too, that this business of catching fish fluctuates from year to year. They have had a bad year; prospects for next year are not good; but in 1958 and 1959 fairly reasonable profits were made. We really must wait to see how this works out. Of course, if the Secretary of State fox Scotland were faced with the total collapse of the Aberdeen fleet in, let us say, a year's time or two years' time, and if it were likely to happen just like that, we could not allow it, but, on the other hand, I think it would be unreasonable, in view of the agreement which had been come to, in view of the fact that the B.T.F. are adhering to it, and in view of the fact that the Government have taken steps through the supplementary fund and the moratoria and the lifting of the ban on distant-water fishing, not to leave the matter there for the moment.
  A number of hon. Members have raised this very difficult and very delicate question of the fishery limits. Several hon. Members have urged that we should at once adopt the six to 12-miles fishery limit and measure that limit from straight base lines. The proposals which the Scottish inshore fishermen have put forward, with the support of their

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  English colleagues, are being very carefully studied. We appreciate that there are arguments for reviewing the United Kingdom policy on this matter, and that we are doing. I am extremely sorry that tonight I cannot at this Box go further than that.
  The hon. Member for Grimsby (Mr. Crosland) raised the subject of the White Fish Authority levy. I understand that the position is that under the statutory procedure the Authority is required to advertise its proposals and consider any objections made to it and, if it decides to proceed, to submit the regulation to my right hon. Friends for confirmation, together with the objections. It then falls to the Ministers to consider the Authority's proposals and the objections, and, if they decide to confirm the Authority's regulations with or without modification, to lay before the House an Order Which is subject to negative Resolution.
  At present the Authority is only at the stage of consulting the interests concerned and considering the objections which those interests have raised. No regulations are yet before Ministers, and, therefore, I must not prejudice the consideration of this matter, which we are required to carry out in a judicial manner, by making any comments at this stage. However, I think it will be clear to the hon. Gentleman from what I have said that there are ample safeguards to ensure that all views are taken into account.
  My hon. Friends the Members for Bodmim (Mr. Marshall) and St. Ives (Mr. G. R. Howard) raised two specific points. The first concerned the research programme for pilchards in the south-west. I know that this has been going on for some time and that perhaps patience is becoming exhausted. However, what the White Fish Authority is trying to establish is where pilchards can be caught during the winter months to make worth while the type of arrangements we would all like to see made. The Authority is pressing on with this programme, and I understand that Sir Louis Chick is at present in Truro discussing next winter's programme.
  The other point was about the coordination of research, which interests
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  a great many hon. Members. The activities of the Government laboratories at Lowestoft and Aberdeen and the Government-assisted laboratories at Plymouth and Millport are coordinated by the Advisory Committee on Fisheries Research of the Development Commission, which also keeps an eye on the research and development work of the White Fish Authority and Herring Industry Board, and there is also close interdepartmental contact with the Torry Research Station of D.S.I.R.
  I would conclude by referring to the adventurous spirit of my hon. Friend the Member for Caithness and Sutherland (Sir D. Robertson). His speech tonight, like his speeches in the past—[Interruption.]—I am not ashamed of this—shows in regard to fishery matters that he has the right spirit of adventure to go forth and try to find fish in other parts of the world. At the same time I heartily endorse his views about the need for conservation. I believe that the British fishing industry will succeed if it faces up to its problems in that spirit.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Resolved,
  That the White Fish Subsidy (United Kingdom) Scheme, 1962, dated 4th July. 1962, a copy of which was laid before this House on 4th July, be approved.
  Herring Subsidy (United Kingdom) Scheme, 1962, dated 4th July, 1962 [copy laid before the House, 4th July], approved.—[Mr. Leburn.]
  White Fish and Herring Subsidies (Aggregate Amount of Grants) Order, 1962, dated 4th July, 1962 [copy laid before the House, 4th July], approved. —[Mr. Leburn.]
  10.0 p.m.
  Mr. Leburn: I beg to move,
  That the Salmon and Migratory Trout (Prohibition of Drift-Net Fishing) Order, 1962. dated 4th July. 1962, a copy of which was laid before this House on 4th July, be approved.
  Would it be convenient, Mr. Speaker, to discuss the other two Orders, the Salmon and Migratory Trout (Drift-net Fishing) Licensing Order and the Salmon and Migratory Trout (Drift-net Fishing) Restrictions on Landing Order with this Order?
  Mr. Speaker: If the House so pleases.
  Mr. Leburn: The prohibition Order and the landings ban Order have been introduced to implement the announcement made during the progress of the Bill for the recant Sea Fish Industry Act that the Government proposed, when the powers became available under that Act, to introduce an Order prohibiting drift-net fishing for salmon off the coasts of Scotland and the Tweed as from 15th September, 1962, and to support that prohibition with a ban on the landing of salmon.
  My right hon. Friend first announced the Government's intention of taking this action on 1st August last year, when it became evident that the new practice of drift-net fishing for salmon was growing with great rapidity in certain areas off the East Coast of Scotland. The licensing Order has been introduced with a view to preventing the development off the coasts of England and Wales of a similar situation to that which has arisen in Scotland, and, at the same time, make allowances for boats which have practised drift netting for salmon for many years.
  I think that by now hon. Members are familiar with the reasons for the action we are taking. This new fishery started in Scotland in 1960 and has developed very rapidly. It has developed so rapidly that the growth has greatly exercised the Government on its possible effects in two ways. First, the effect on the established commercial fisheries which give employment to 1,600 or 1,700 men who see their jobs in jeopardy. I might also mention the salmon angling which plays an important part in the Scottish economy.
  Secondly, and of even more importance, is the effect upon our valuable salmon stocks. On this matter, I know that there is a unanimity of views. As we have explained in earlier debates, we were advised when drift netting started that if it developed to a large extent over a wide area it could be damaging to stocks, though direct evidence might not be available for four or five years. I do not think that I need to labour these points tonight. The fact is that the drift-net industry has continued to expand rapidly and steadily.
  The catch rose from about 9,000 fish —all off the Tweed—in 1960 to about 28,000 in 1961. For 1962, the figures
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  which we have show that up to 7th July of this year more than 65,000 salmon have been caught by this method. The number of boats participating—
  Mr. Hoy: Will the hon. Gentleman tell us what has been the catch by methods which he regards as legal? Is it not the fact that there has been such a superabundance that it has caused embarrassment in the Billingsgate fish market?
  Mr. Leburn: I am not aware of that. I was trying to show the steady increase from 9,000 in 1960 to 28,000 in 1961 and to 65,000 this year. I think that it is clear that there is no let-up.
  I realise that the drift-net fishermen are anxious that they should be allowed to continue what, admittedly, we realise has been to them a lucrative form of fishing. As we expected they are strongly opposed in principle to prohibition and suggested that no action should be taken until we have the report of the Hunter Committee, which is reviewing the whole law on salmon and trout in Scotland and which was asked particularly to give priority to that part of its remit dealing with the regulation of fishing which, of course, includes drift-netting.
  I know that the Committee is giving priority to this matter and is pressing on with all speed with the taking of evidence about it from the appropriate bodies. But the Chairman has reported that the Committee is not yet able to say whether it will be possible to submit an interim report on the question, and naturally, it cannot say yet, if that proves practicable, when it will be able to do so.
  In view of this we have felt it essential to take action now. I am quite sure that it is better to be safe than sorry. Certainly, when the Committee's report is received—or the interim report if it makes one—the recommendations it makes on drift-net fishing will receive immediate and careful consideration and the action which has been taken will be reviewed in the light of the Committee's report.
  The prohibition Order provides that during the period 15th September, 1962, to 15th February, 1965, fishing for salmon and migratory trout shall be prohibited in a specified area off the

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  coast of Scotland and the Tweed. Inside territorial waters the prohibition applies to all fishing boats. Outside territorial waters it applies to British-owned fishing boats, whether registered or not. The area to which the prohibition applies is set out in the Schedule to the Order. I do not think I need take up the time of the House in describing the boundaries in too great detail.
  Broadly, what we have done is to make the prohibited area a kind of box completely enclosing Scotland and the mouth of the Tweed with its sides far enough off the coast to include all the waters where salmon returning to Scottish rivers and to the Tweed might be caught by drift-nets. Except in the south-east, where we start with the area of the Tweed district as defined by Statute, the whole of which is included in the prohibition, the boundary lines all run east and west or north and south.
  The boundary is thus fairly simple and I do not think hon. Members will have much difficulty in following it. Only on the south-west does it look a little involved. Here, it follows a rather zig-zag pattern in order to avoid encroaching on an area off the north of Ireland where there has been a traditional drift-net fishery for salmon.
  I turn to the position in the area south of the prohibited area. Inside territorial limits off the coasts of England and Wales drift-net fishing will continue to be subject to control by river boards, as hitherto. Outside those limits it will be subject to licensing by my right hon. Friend under the licensing Order within the area described in the Schedule to that Order. In this case it has not been practicable, because of the configuration of the coast, to define the area by straight lines of latitude and longtitude and for the most part the boundary is drawn 25 miles from the coast.
  The purpose of the licensing Order is to control drift-netting off the coast of England and Wales to prevent a situation developing similar to that which has arisen off Scotland, and, at the same time, to allow the small number of fishermen who traditionally fished with drift-nets inside and outside territorial waters to continue to do so.
  My right hon. Friend proposes to consult the river boards before granting
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  licences and to impose conditions as to close seasons, close times, types of nets, and so on, corresponding to those in adjacent river board areas. The prohibited area—particularly those parts of it where drift-net fishing has been taking place—will be patrolled by protection ships, but it would be very difficult by this means alone to ensure over the extensive area that there is no breach of the prohibition.
  That is why we have introduced the Restriction of Landing Order. Under this Order the landing of salmon caught in waters to which the prohibition Order and the licensing Order apply will be prohibited, but exception is made for fish caught under licenses from either river boards or from the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food.
  I think that I have said enough to show what the Orders will do and why I think they are necessary.
  10.10 p.m.
  Mr. Hoy: After about six hours on fishing—I see that one or two other hon. Members have arrived since 10 p.m.— we are getting to the tail end of the debate. The official licensing hour, closing time, in Scotland is 10 p.m. One or two other hon. Members, including the hon. Member for Aberdeenshire, West (Mr. Hendry), have arrived for the closing stages of the debate.
  I do not wish to prolong the discussion, nor have I much more to say on this Order. This is a rotten Order. I have said so before. It is brought in under the most dubious circumstances. I will briefly recall what has happened. Certain private interests wanted this Order introduced to protect the private rights of private river owners, and the Government felt that there was not sufficient evidence for this. In fact, the noble Lord, Earl Waldegrave in another place made it clear that they had not sufficient evidence to do what the Government were being requested to do. As a result of that, he got the sack today.
  This having been done, what I have called a shoal of noble Lords arrived from Scotland, including the Queen's Factor. They descended on another place and stampeded the Secretary of State for Scotland—he was involved, not the Minister of Agriculture, who has nothing to do with this Order—into taking action against the drift-net fishermen.

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  He has been sacked, too. The only difference is that he was sacked yesterday.
  Mr. Willis: He was sacked on. Friday.
  Mr. Hoy: He got the sack, anyway. Both Ministers have disappeared. The Government are so determined that this Order shall be enforced against the poor drift-net fishermen that tine Chairman of the Tory Party in Scotland has been made Secretary of State for Scotland has been made Secretary of State for Soot-land to see that it is carried out.
  Do they intend to apply it to all fishermen? Not a bit of it. This prohibition against drift-net fishing for salmon is against only British fishermen. Despite all the verbiage with which the Under-Secretary of State wrapped up this statement—and it is becoming a habit of the Scottish Office never to say quite what they mean but to surround it with a lot of padding—it means that foreign fishermen can come into our waters and fish up to the three-mile limit for salmon, drift-netting and all. The only fishermen who are prohibited under the Order are British fishermen.
  To bolster up his case the Joint Undersecretary of State quoted a lot of figures about salmon which have been caught by drift-net fishermen. He has given us some meticulous figures. I only wish that he could produce them when they are needed. Apparently they can be produced only when he wants to bolster up this very flimsy case. He does not even make comparison with the large amount of salmon being caught at present by ordinary methods. If he were to do so he would weaken considerably the case which he has made against the drift-net fishermen. I do not object to the ordinary fisherman doing well out of it; that is why they are in business. But we cannot consider the problem of salmon and migratory trout without taking into consideration not only the methods of the drift-net fishermen but also those of the stake-net fishermen and all the rest. Indeed, one has to remember the considerable power of the Tweed Fishing Company and the many thousands of £s which they earn by catching salmon.
  If the Government had been really interested in all this, they would have
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  examined that question and would have had a look at the question of the salmon which are destroyed by river pollution, which might be wreaking much greater havoc on our salmon stocks than drift-net fishermen. One of the extraordinary things about the Order is this. When a Government want to do somethihng they normally first want to put off doing it and they appoint a committee. The committee usually reports after two or three years. If we follow the practice of this Government whether it be the Devlin Commission or the Pilkington Committee, the Government then decide to do nothing about the Report.
  On this occasion they did not take the chance. The Government introduced the Order to prohibit drift-net fishing for salmon. Having enacted this legislation, they set up a committee under Lord Hunter to see if it was the right thing to do. They first introduced the prohibition and than set up the committee to find out if the prohibition was necessary.
  If all these salmon were being caught, why should Lord Hunter have this difficulty? The Under-Secretary said in introducing the Order that the Committee was giving priority to this question. He said—I think I quote his exact words —"Lord Hunter thinks it might be difficult to bring in a report in a very short time, perhaps not even by 15th September". If drift-net fishing for salmon is producing so many salmon, why is it difficult for Lord Hunter and his Committee to find this out for themselves and report accordingly? The hon. Gentleman cannot have the argument both ways.
  I have great faith in most of the Scottish Law Lords. I think that Lord Hunter will do a very good job, together with his Committee. I can only express the hope that he will. If it is so apparent that drift-net fishermen are doing all that they are supposed to be doing, Lord Hunter and his Committee should have no difficulty in finding the evidence to submit to the Secretary of State for Scotland. Apparently it is going to be a little more difficult than at first envisaged.
  I condemned the proposal at the beginning. I condemn it today. I do not think that the Order will do any good.

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  The Secretary of State has given way to the pressure of the noble Lords of Scotland and the interests of the Tory Party. We on this side have argued for years for the conservation of our fishing stock —salmon stock or any other fishing stock. We think that that is a sensible thing for any country to do and for any group of countries to do. But let us at least produce some evidence about it. If it is necessary, I assure the Government that we should be only too delighted to co-operate, but the flimsy evidence that they have produced so far can only make us believe that they are giving way to some selfish private interests against which they care not to stand.
  10.18 p.m.
  Mr. John M. Temple: I am very pleased to follow the hon. Member for Edinburgh, Leith (Mr. Hoy) but I hope that he will accept my sincere apology in this instance that I cannot follow him with regard to Scottish legislation and the effect of the Order on Scottish interests. Throughout all the discussions on the Sea Fish Industry Bill I have concentrated on the interests of England and Wales. Therefore, I should like to refer to the two Orders which affect the licensing position in England and Wales and also the restrictions on landing of salmon and migratory trout in England and Wales.
  I want to say at the outset that I welcome the two Orders that affect England and Wales. They bring in a licensing system which my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary has explained will be operated to give the present licensees under river board regulations power to go on with the particular forms of fishing which they have been carrying out for a long period of years. I entirely approve of that approach, because in England and Wales we have been fortunate in having a committee under Lord Bledisloe which has reported that the present balance between the various interests is satisfactory.
  My hon. Friend said that the licensing would be done by river boards, but I believe that when we may be thinking of licensing of fishing outside territorial waiters it would be advisable for the sea fisheries committees to be consulted. Now I am thinking of another of these
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  Orders, under which my hon. Friend the Member for St. Ives (Mr. G. R. Howard) asked for grants for the fishery protection vessels that are operated by those committees. I think that it will become necessary for the sea fishery committees to co-operate with the fishery protection squadron in the necessary policing and they may need some assistance in the provision of rather more vessels to be used in conjunction with the fishery protection squadron in order that the policing may be effective and fair.
  In the debate on the Second Reading of the Sea Fish Industry Bill, I said that I did not like such enabling Measures. We have had to deal with a number of Orders tonight. Admittedly, we have had plenty of time to discuss them, and I am grateful for that; but the Orders have been in my hands only for about a week and, I believe, have been available for only just over a week. It is just not possible to get Orders back to fishery organisations, and get their reactions to them so that we can speak with authority. When Orders come forward as swiftly as they do in Parliament I often find myself having to use my own judgment.
  In this instance, I was able to get the reaction of the Salmon and Trout Association, through a consultation with the secretary but, as a generalisation, Orders of this nature are not satisfactory When they come so swiftly after an Act of Parliament has received the Royal Assent. It is not a satisfactory way of carrying through legislation, and I make a mild protest—not against my right hon. Friend's Orders but against the Order-making procedure in general.
  I very much hope that these Orders will effectively control the fishing for salmon and migratory trout in England and Wales, but I have some doubts about it. Rather than a prohibition of drift netting it would have been better had the Orders been framed entirely differently. Had they prohibited all forms of fishing other than that specified in the Order we would have known that all other forms of fishing were prohibited. We would have known that the licensed netsmen alone could fish, and the way in which they could fish would of course have been specified. As it is, it will be very difficult to prove that the fish were

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  caught in a particular area by a particular means. Therefore, although I hope that such Orders as these will be effective, I have grave doubts about it.
  I thank my right hon. Friend for the consultations he permitted the various interests to have with his Ministry prior to the laying of the Orders. I cannot say that his officials were particularly receptive of the points put to them, but it was fair and reasonable that the various interests were afforded those consultations.
  One of the English Orders prescribes a maximum licensing fee of £20. The sum of £20 is a very modest figure for a maximum. It represents about the price of four salmon and I suggest that, should we discuss these matters again, a higher maximum licence fee might be envisaged
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  because £20 these days is quite unrealistic.
  I hope that the fishery protection squadron will be extraordinarily active in patrolling the waters where this new form of drift-netting might start in England and Wales. A delicate position exists over the English and Welsh salmon stocks and it would be a tragedy if these stocks were decimated by illegal fishing. I trust that these measures will be effective and I can promise my right hon. Friend the co-operation of all the interests for which I have the honour to speak. If they are not as effective as they should be I can assure the Minister that we shall have pleasure in assisting him to bring in Orders, in due course, which may be more effective.
  10.26 p.m.
  Mr. A. Woodburn: I would like to say a few words on another aspect of the matter, one which particularly affects my constituency. I would, first, endorse what was said by my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh, Leith (Mr. Hoy) about the need for taking steps to preserve fishing in the rivers. The River Forth, for example, is one of the big salmon rivers and considerable trouble is being caused by the discharge of effluent which is poisoning the fish.
  I am told that when the water gets covered by a film of this effluent the oxygen is prevented from getting into the water so that salmon can neither breathe nor get up the river. Great destruction is taking place because of this pollution. The Secretary of State has assured me that steps are now being taken to put the matter right. I hope that he will consult some of the industrialists and local authorities which may be responsible for polluting the rivers. There seems to be a dispute going on as to whether, scientifically, sewage feeds or destroys fish, but there is no doubt in the minds of the fishermen that this de-oxygenisation of the water destroys fish.
  Fishermen in the upper and lower reaches of the Firth of Forth want the salmon protected. They do not want their livelihood destroyed by the simple massacre of the salmon stocks. The anxiety in their minds is that the proposals under discussion do not necessarily guarantee the safety of the salmon stocks. This is not a matter solely for this country, and I hope that when the Minister goes into the Common Market negotiations he will point out the importance of taking steps to stop the poaching of fish on other people's shores and to control fishing generally.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Leith, at the Council of Europe some time ago, persuaded the Council to pass a resolution regarding the control of the size of nets. I understand that the resolution was ratified by all the countries concerned. Protection of salmon should also be controlled by all the countries bordering the North
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  Sea. We ourselves can control it only partially, so that full co-operation to achieve this aim is necessary.
  The hon. Member for the City of Chester (Mr. Temple) referred to licensing. I recall that when there was a dispute about salmon fishing by drift-net inside the Forth Estuary the question arose of whether or not there should be licensing of the fishermen. At the moment fishermen can be interdicted or prosecuted if they fish by any method other than sweep net. My constituents feel that it is hard luck on a fisherman who is prohibited from drift-netting in the Estuary if someone fishing down the river by drift-net gets away with it. It was during the dispute I have mentioned that the question of licensing came up and I can inform the hon. Member for the City of Chester that if he wants to protect fishermen it is somewhat risky to try to do so by subjecting them to licensing. If a man breaks the law he can be fined and at least he gets the chance to live another day, but if his licence is withdrawn that is capital punishment. Therefore, it is very risky for fishermen to get themselves placed under a system of licensing rather under a system by which they are punished in the customary way for breaking the law.
  I should have thought that from the fishermen's point of view it would be very unwise to become involved in a licensing system whereby a man who broke the law was prohibited from plying his trade. If we were half as enthusiastic about withdrawing licences from drunken drivers as we are about withdrawing licences from fishermen who commit offences, there would be fewer deaths on the roads and more salmon in the rivers.
  I hope the Minister will take these points into consideration, especially when dealing with Europe, and will obtain European control over these practices as soon as possible.
  10.31 p.m.
  Sir John Gilmour: So many species of wild life have suffered that it would be wrong to oppose out of hand any method of conservation. That not only this country but Norway is worried about drift-netting for salmon is proof of that fact.

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  Several items worry me about this Order as it stands. My hon. Friend the Under-Secretary, in giving the figures for the number of salmon that were caught by drift-nets, showed that it had gone up from 9.000 to 65,000. During the ten years from 1950 to 1960 I understand that the total number of salmon caught, as returned to the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, has varied from 150,000 to 220,000. which means that there has been a variance of up to 70,000 fish in a year, which is not as much as has been token by drift-netting.
  I have seen in my part of the world a fleet of foreign boats fishing just outside the three mile limit in the estuary of the Tay, and I cannot help feeling that the upsetting of the balance of our salmon stocks has not been caused by drift-netting alone, which has only come about in the last two or three years. There must be something far more to it than merely the question of drift-netting for salmon.
  Whilst I feel that we must accept this Order in the interests of Scottish salmon fishing, because it is a central part of our economy, I am certain that if the Minister thinks that by passing this Order he will have done all he need do to conserve the salmon stocks of this country, he is wrong. There must be something more, because the figures do not show that drift-netting is responsible for our troubles.
  My hon. Friend may be able to tell us what were the total numbers of salmon caught by all methods during these years when drift-netting has increased from 9,000 to 65,000, to see what relationship there is between the fish which have been taken out of the sea but cannot be caught in the rivers. If we look on this simply as a problem of drift-netting I am certain that we shall get it wrong.
  I would also commend to those who are interested in fishing an article in last week's Field in which an American gentleman interested in the rod angling side of fishing wrote that after he had caught a fish he could see no reason why he should not put it back into the river and let it spawn. He had had his fun and he felt there was no reason why he should deplete the stocks.
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  I am certain that there is some financial implication behind this, but it seems a good idea that this interest in conserving fish should be encouraged. I do not understand why we are so keen to prohibit drift-netting but not so keen on putting a limit on the number of fish taken out by other means. Why not put a brake on every method until we are certain what is the cause of the trouble?
  Mr. Willis: I agree very much with what the hon. Member for Fife, East (Sir J. Gilmour) has said. We have been panicked into this step at the behest of a group of landed interests. It is the group that commenced to panic in another place. We have been driven to take hasty action. As has been pointed out, that was agreed and that was the Government's case twelve months ago against the people who were asking for this form of legislation.
  I find difficulty in accepting the Order because we do not know the facts. The Under-Secretary quoted figures to show how the catch by drift-net fishermen had increased, but a report in The Scotsman last week said that catches by river netters on the Tweed were record catches this year. When he was interrupted and asked whether this was the case, the Undersecretary could not answer. If it is the case, then surely it makes nonsense of the argument which the hon. Gentleman used in putting this legislation before us in Standing Committee when we were given figures showing the great damage being done to salmon stocks. We ought to be told whether it is the case that catches of migratory trout and salmon have been at a record level this year.
  Another point about the figure of 65,000 is that the drift-net fishermen have been more or less under sentence by the Government for the past twelve months and they have spent large sums of money on nets which they will not be able to use after the Order comes into force. They have been trying to make hay while the sun shines and to cover the cost of the nets, in other words catching as much as they could before the Order came into effect. If the drift-net fishermen had not been under this guillotine I doubt whether

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  the catch on the Tweed would have been anywhere near this level.
  The hon. Member for Fife, East gave a number of instances to show that we do not know all the facts. I agree with him about the importance of conserving stocks, but the question is who does the conservation. Research is carried out by the Hydro-Electric Board and at Pitlochry. We recognise the importance of these stocks and it would have been more to the point if the Government had brought forward legislation which would have encouraged this work and had done something more about it instead of prohibiting the catching of salmon. In Committee on the Measure I read a quotation from the First Report of the Scottish Fisheries Department in which this point was made. The quotation which I read referred to the fact that whereas we were more concerned with controlling the catching of salmon, America was more concerned with increasing the stocks of salmon. We could not do that, of course, because we spent so much on armaments—this was way back in 1870—that we could not afford to go in for conservation of stocks at that time. That appears to be rather humorous today, but the point that it makes is a good one.
  The other point about the Order is that we are acting without knowing the facts. We have not awaited the report of the Committee which was set up. That is fantastic. I think of the time that it takes to persuade the Government that an industry is dying and needs their assistance. We listened to a debate a short time ago in which the Undersecretary said, "If Aberdeen is to suffer and we see the middle-water fleets gradually dying, of course we shall have to do something about it." There was not much urgency about that. When it was a matter of protecting salmon, however, we had a Bill passed and the Orders introduced within twelve months. This difference in the approach of the Government to the various events that happen in Scotland and to industries which are dying or threatened is rather strange. If the landowner is concerned, we get legislation quickly; the Parliamentary timetable always permits it. If, however, it is a matter of protecting people and their jobs, that is rather
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  different and we are quite content not to do much about it.
  In this case, we have been rushed into the matter rapidly and without any proper report on the problem. We have been pushed into it without any recom-mendations about what should be done and we have been rushed into it mainly as the result of a powerful pressure group in the Tory Party—that is, the landowning interests, who first raised the matter in the House of Lords and compelled the Government to act, ably assisted, of course, by certain Scottish back-benchers. Perhaps I should not use the word "ably," because none of them have been given jobs in the new reshuffle of the Government.
  Whilst I agree about the necessity for conserving salmon and taking action to increase stocks, there is the question of the pollution of rivers. There is in my constituency the River Esk. The last salmon that came up there gave itself up in disgust to a wee boy with a pin. At one time, it was a fine salmon river. This is happening all over the place. Every year, I ask what the Government are doing about the pollution of the Esk, but I never get very far. It is still almst an open sewer. We do not find the same urgency about it. If the Government are to tackle the problem correctly, they cannot do so simply by producing Orders of this kind, which penalise one section of the community as against other sections.
  10.44 p.m.
  Mr. Patrick Wolrige-Gordon: I agree with a lot of what has been said on both sides of the House in the debate so far. There is a great aura of indignation around salmon interests. It arises whenever the matter is even discussed—the question that men have a right to take salmon by drift-nets. I feel that if those interests had shown half as much energy and determination in dealing with pollution or even the seal menace that would have had an extremely healthy effect on the salmon industry. As it is, the whole weight of the assault has fallen on the drift-netters, and this Order is the result.
  The effect of it is that freedom is being denied to our own fishermen to fish inside our territorial waters or outside our territorial waters while foreigners can scoop the lot. What

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  action can the Government take to control foreigners who want to scoop the lot, and what action will they take to control those foreigners? This is a matter about which our own fishermen feel very deeply indeed. What they want and what they seek is justice in this matter.
  Even in the debate tonight the Undersecretary of State would not give the comparable figures of the salmon caught by all the traditional methods, as opposed to the number he gave of salmon which had been caught by drift-net That is the kind of way in which this debate has been conducted up to now. Our inshore men who have taken salmon by drift-net in this last year do not want to destroy the salmon, but they feel very strongly that no case has yet been made against killing salmon with drift-nets and that instead they are the victims of propaganda and real prejudice.
  I really do think it is incredible to interfere with the liberty of the subject to this extent, without an adequate survey of the facts of the matter. The Hunter Committee, as we all know, is sitting in Edinburgh at the moment. Why could we not wait at least till the results of that Committee's work are known and we could have a properly created policy fox salmon? In my part of the world salmon used to be so numerous that they ceased even to be a popular form of food, one could have them so often. That was not a long time ago—about fifty years ago. Could we not have some hatcheries, and less pollution, and a more effective policy against seals, which have destroyed so many of these fish?
  I personally feel that total prohibition is wrong. It means loss to the men who have invested their money in gear. There are not enough facts on which to base this decision of the Government, and it is a derogation from liberty. Total prohibition makes the Government guilty, for whatever reason, of unfair discrimination against a group of men who have made their living from catching fish in the sea, and whatever kind of fish they would. This is the first time this prohibition has happened.
  10.48 p.m.
  Mr. Malcolm MacMillan: I agree largely with what the hon. Member for Aberdeenshire, East (Mr.
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  Wolrige-Gordon) said, and I have considerable sympathy with his point of view in defence of the salmon netters. I certainly agree with him that the practice the Government have been following for the past few years is a curious one—of first producing a Bill and then appointing a committee to see whether any Bill is needed. That is partly the reason for the sense of grievance which the drift-net fishermen feel in this case, but the same practice was followed in connection with the licensing (Scotland) Bill which was recently before the House. The Bill was produced while a committee was still skiing and had produced only half its report. We had the same process in connection with hydro-electricity in Soot-land. The Mackenzie Committee was appointed, but in the meantime the Secretary of State decided to cut off practically all development before the Committee had given any recommendations to that effect. This practice is becoming a habit, so that perhaps the hon. Gentleman should not concentrate all his attack upon the Government in connection with this salmon fishing Measure but extend it a wider front and upon the Government practice as a whole. This practice is becoming a highly objectionable habit with the Government.
  There was such a characteristic speech a few minutes ago from the other side by an hon. Member who has now departed. In an earlier debate tonight, when some of us were pleading for additional vessels to reinforce the fishery protection cruiser fleet in Scotland, particularly around the Islands to protect the livelihood of the people, there was not a great deal of support from that hon. Member. I do not think he joined in the support which some of his colleagues on that side gave to us. But when it came to enforcing this Measure against the drift-net fishermen, when it came to salmon and migratory trout, the hon. Member rose and proposed that the already inadequate fishery protection fleet should be diverted from its main object of protecting the fishery limits for white fish and other fishings, and that we should even get the Government to spend more money by adding speedboats and additional protection vessels to the fleet; all to protect private salmon and trout. It shows what is behind the advocacy of the Government and those who support them. During the dis-

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  cussions on the Bill—of which these Measures are obnoxious by-products, as my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh, East (Mr. Willis) would have said —we have had clear evidence of the interested character of the advocacy of hon. Members opposite and even more so of noble Lords in another place.
  I have a considerable amount of sympathy for the drift-net fishermen because I feel that they have been harmed in two ways. First, they have been put to considerable loss by this Measure, as my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh, East pointed out. Many bought gear in the ordinary way before or at the beginning of the season, and then they found that they would not get even the cost of it back, let alone make a profit on it. Some, it is said, have gone all out to make sure that they caught enough fish in the short period legally open to them to make up for any possible loss. It seems to me that they even have a claim for compensation against the Government, because they bought their nets in good faith, having no reason to anticipate that their activities would be made illegal so abruptly and that they would not recoup, at least, the full value of their purchases of gear. The second matter is that they have been condemned, as has been said, without a full trial, without full knowledge of the facts. That is unpardonable.
  We have all paid more than lip service to fish stocks conservation. I do not know anyone who dissents from that policy and the prosecution of it so far as it can be done without unreasonable damage to innocent parties. As the hon. Member for Fife, East (Sir J. Gilmour) said, there is no evidence that the drift-net fishermen alone are the cause of the depletion which has worried the Government so suddenly and so much. I agree with him that if one is to take their activities into consideration, one should take comprehensively into consideration the activities of all parties and all interests which may be causing depletion, and possibly do something about all of them. What exactly should be done is a matter which one could develop fully only if one took all the established facts into consideration in the right way.
  I am worried about the fact that our own Scottish fishermen will more
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  than ever before feel a sense of injustice because, while they can be stopped, prosecuted and punished severely, as, of course, they must be for illegal fishing, they can see foreigners day and night throughout the season coming quite openly into our fishing grounds and taking all they want and getting away scot free. There is nothing that one can do about that use of the high seas for salmon or anything else without international agreements, and ratified agreements at that. As a representative of lobster fishermen and other fishermen, I know how deeply they resent the difference in treatment between themselves and the people who come very often illegally fishing, within our territorial limits and on our own fishing grounds.
  An example in passing is that our fishermen are not allowed to take berried lobsters or land lobsters of less than 9 ins. in length, but foreign trawlers take everything that is going and no one can stop them landing them in their own or other countries. What will happen if we join the Common Market I am not sure —nobody is—but I understand that negotiation, or at least discussion, on fisheries is beginning. But there is a sense of injustice with regard to the lobster catchings and landings, and in respect of the prohibition on British trawlers in the whole Moray Firth, while the foreigners can practise as they will. This new salmon protection provision will add to that sense of injustice.
  While we are in favour of conservation, many hon. Members on this side of the House feel that we are conserving for the wrong people. When I make speeches in support of conservation, I am conscious that, unfortunately, the people who benefit most from the conservation are not the general public or the general body of British fishermen. In an area such as my constituency where there are fine salmon and trout rivers, it is not the ordinary people who benefit, but people like Lord Baillieu, who writes to me protesting when I say that there is insufficient conservation. There are protests from the House of Lords and from interest in the City which apparently have no legitimate connection with the Western Islands. But when one makes a protest against their apparent monopolies they spring from all sorts of extraordinary quarters to

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  claim that they own whole areas of the islands or the fisheries.
  Everyone, as I say, is in favour of conservation. But unfortunately, everyone does not benefit from it. The people who benefit are not the small people but those who are concerned with trying to get out of it for themselves the greatest possible commercial advantage. One example of this is afforded by the Grimersta River on the Island of Lewis which is one of the finest of our salmon rivers. But no ordinary person from the Western Isles or elsewhere can gain access to the river except by permission of the landlord which is very seldom granted.
  There was a prospect of developing hydro-electricity from this river's water-power for domestic needs and, possibly, for the introduction of industry. But because of the salmon monopoly interests that was initially killed, ostensibly in the name of conservation, but in fact it was in the interests of private individuals. only later was this officially denied. So while we agree with conservation, and preached it long before the surviving members of the Government came to this House, we do not like to see conservation only in the interests of a small group of monopolists. Secondly, we do not like to see the drift-net fishermen being condemned before the facts are known and understood.
  10.58 p.m.
  Mr. Forbes Hendry: Tonight we have heard a great deal about people not knowing the facts. I can forgive the hon. Member for Edinburgh, East (Mr. Willis) for not knowing the facts, because the only place one would find salmon in Edinburgh, East is on a fishmonger's slab. But I cannot forgive my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeenshire, East (Mr. Wolrige-Gordon) because he has not taken the trouble to learn the facts. In my part of the world we have reason to know the facts. They were not told to me by the landowning interests, but by working men, anglers on the River Don in my constituency. I have also heard them from hotel keepers, shopkeepers, and others in my constituency concerned with the tourist trade. It has been said that this question was first raised by the landowning
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  interests in another place. That is not so. It was raised in this House by me as the result of the representations made to me by the working men anglers in my constituency.
  We have been told tonight of 1,700 men round the coast of Scotland whose livelihood is in jeopardy because of the drift-net fishing. Hon. Members opposite do not know the facts. The facts are that on the River Dee in my constituency the catches of salmon by orthodox fishing methods, including orthodox nets, to the end of May this year were about one-third what they were last year, which is completely different from the suppositions we have heard from articles in The Field and elsewhere. These are the facts. Salmon fisheries, which are the heritage of all the northern countries, Scotland, Norway, Finland and the lot, will be in jeopardy unless steps are taken, and taken now.
  My hon. Friend the Member for the City of Chester (Mr. Temple) had some doubts about the wisdom of my right hon. Friend in bringing in these Orders so suddenly. I congratulate my right hon. Friend on bringing them in, because unless they were brought in now the whole fishing in the North could disappear overnight. A careful balance has been kept between salmon fishers and breeders, but in the last two years that balance has been going. These Orders are a temporary measure to restore and maintain that balance. Some of the facts we do not know. That is what the Hunter Committee has been set up to find out—how to increase salmon. Until the Committee reports we must do what we can to keep that balance. I therefore congratulate my right hon. Friend on bringing in these Orders and commend them to the House and hope they will be passed.
  11.2 p.m.
  Mr. Frederick Peart: The hon. Member for Aberdeenshire, West (Mr. Hendry) seems to know more facts than the Minister, who refused to give statistics. He must have known the official Government policy as announced in the House of Lords by Lord Waldegrave, that we could not be dogmatic, there were no facts and there were difficulties. I shall not repeat his speech,

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  but he announced the Government policy and I remind the hon. Member of what the Joint Parliamentary Secretary said:
  "… this is not a matter on which it is possible at present to make any firm predictions."
  He went on to say:
  "There are many factors which affect the stocks of salmon and it is difficult to disentangle the effect of any one of them. Moreover, in order to get any relevant information of what is happening to the stocks, statistics over a fairly long period are required …"— [OFFICIAL REPORT, House of Lords. 22nd June, 1961; Vol. 232, c. 773.]
  The hon. Member must agree, as the Minister and the Secretary of State did, that that was official Government policy. My horn. Friend the Member for Leith (Mr. Hoy) and others have argued over and over again that there was a change of Government policy.
  Mr. Soames: Hear, hear.
  Mr. Peart: The Minister admits it. He says "Hear, hear."
  Mr. Soames: I said "Hear, hear" to the fact that the hon. Member has argued the case over and over again.
  Mr. Peart: The right hon. Gentleman knows that he is on bad ground. We have argued over and over again in Committee as we do tonight that this was a bad part of a very important Bill. The Government injected into the Bill which dealt with wider problems of the white fish industry this matter from which these Orders ensue. These Orders are bad, unjust and unfair. The Government should have waited until they had more facts. We all accept the need for conservation. In the Council of Europe, in this House and elsewhere when speaking on fish matters, my hon. Friend has stressed the need for conservation. We stress it tonight, but we argue that the faots are not yet available. The Committee of investigation should have reported before action was taken. We should not only have had legal people making pronouncements but scientific evidence which has not yet been produced. Figures should have been provided before anyone was dogmatic about the situation. I trust the Minister tonight will give us the figures for which
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  his hon. Friends have asked—his hon. Friends who have criticised the Order.
  The hon. Member for Fife, East (Sir J. Gilmour) made an important point when he said that people operating in the Tay, beyond the three-mile limit, may be causing harm to the salmon stock. This point was taken up by the hon. Member for Aberdeenshire, East (Mr. Wolrige-Gordon), who strongly criticised the Order. We have the spectacle of foreign fishermen being able to fish for salmon just outside the three-mile limit and possibly doing much more harm to the salmon stocks; they can fish for salmon but British fishermen are penalised if they do so. We suggest only that before the Government take such action as they envisage in the Order there should have been a scientific inquiry. This was, indeed, the Government's view before they caved in to pressure from certain Scottish landed interests.
  The Government are in difficulties. The Order prohibits drift-net fishing in an area surrounding Scotland. The southern boundary, on the western side, will intersect an area of the high seas within the Solway Firth. I am interested in this area because my constituency borders the Solway Firth, and some fishermen from Cumberland, under licence from the Cumberland River Board, have been drift-netting for salmon there for some time. I trust that they will be able to go on doing this, with a licence. No doubt in Scotland fishing into the Solway Firth will be prevented, and yet I hope that the Cumberland fishermen will be able to go on drift-netting. That is anomalous. We shall have foreign fishermen who can fish for salmon outside the three-mile limit while British fishermen cannot, and an anomaly in the Solway Firth because of the prohibition area.
  We say that the Order is bad and that the Section of the Bill under which it is made is bad, penalising unfairly an important section of the fishing industry. We cannot dismiss lightly these people who are engaged in the industry. It is all very well for the hon. Member for Aberdeenshire, West (Mr. Hendry) to say that this Order will protect the livelihood of 1,700 fishermen; that is not true, and he knows it. Many of these men are not full-time fishermen and will

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  not be harmed in any way comparable with what will happen to the inshore fishermen who are engaged in drift-netting for salmon. There is no comparison, and the hon. Member knows that. He should consult his hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeenshire, East and other Scottish Conservative Members who have spoken against the Order. I hope that the Minister will give us the figures for which we have asked and that the hon. Member for Aberdeenshire, West will listen to them.
  We say that this is a bad Order, unfair and unjust, because it will prevent Scottish and English fishermen from fishing while others will remain scot-free. We have pressed the point, and we shall not dwell on it unduly. We have criticised the Order, and we hope that even at this late hour the Minister will give us better reasons for introducing it than we heard when we discussed the subject in Committee and on Second Reading of the Bill.
  11.9 p.m.
  Mr. Soames: The hon. Member for Edinburgh, Leith (Mr. Hoy) said that this was a rotten Order and the hon. Member for Workington (Mr. Peart) said that it was a bad Order, so that it is getting better as the evening wears on. We regard it as a necessary Order. There is a lesson to be learned from the fact that in the debate, we have been told from both sides of the House that the Order goes too far and too fast and that there is doubt about its efficacy.
  The chief argument of those on both sides who advocated greater delay on the part of the Government before making the Orders was that we should have waited for the Hunter Committee to report. They quoted the remarks of my noble Friend in another place at about this time last year. Evidence as to the depletion of stocks of salmon is terribly difficult to obtain and to be of any use; like as not, once found, it is too late. Where I think hon. Members have gone astray is in talking about fishermen who have been earning their living at this, as if it is something to which they have been traditionally accustomed. My hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeenshire, East (Mr. Wolrige-Gordon) referred specifically to fisherman who have bean earning their living at this for a year or two. Before
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  that they caught other fish. So it cannot be said that this is their traditional form of fishing.
  The figures rose from 9,000 in 1960 to 28,000 in 1961. It was at that point that the Government asked themselves, "Are we now going to legislate?" At about this time last year, or perhaps a little later, bearing in mind the time it takes to get legislation though the House, we finally decided to legislate knowing that it would not be on the Statute Book until about now. If we had not done it this year, we should have had to wait for another year before doing it. What would have been the figures of catches this year? What would they have been next year if we had not legislated?
  Mr. Peart: No, no, no.
  Mr. Soames: I hear the hon. Member for Workington saying "No, no, no". Two views can be taken about this. One is that things should be allowed to let rip and that there should be no legislation. There is all the difference in the world between indulging in the luxury of criticism and being responsible for the stocks of salmon and for deciding on the extent to which a risk could properly be taken or whether no risk should be taken by not allowing this type of fishing to continue.
  Mr. Peart: The Minister should not argue that we were prepared to let it rip. We would have preferred a committee quickly. The right hon. Member, with his colleague the Secretary of State for Scotland, delayed it. We could have had a committee immediately to investigate the whole problem of the conservation of salmon.
  Mr. Soames: The hon. Gentleman is saying that he would not have legislated this Session. If the Hunter Committee had started work this time last year, he would have had to decide whether to legislate this year, because these things take time. A Bill cannot be drawn up in two days. We believe that we were right to legislate this year. Where I believe that the hon. Gentleman can argue with us is as to whether we should have legislated. I do not believe that he would have chosen to set up a committee, wait perhaps a year for the committee's report, and then wait another year while legislating. How much time

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  would have been lost and how much damage would have been done? If the hon. Gentleman argues that we should not have laid the Orders now but should have awaited the Committee's Report, that is a different argument from that on legislation. We do not know when the Hunter Committee will report, but this year we have to face the fact that there has been a very steep rise in the numbers of fish caught by drift net. I believe that in the last full year the figure was 28,000, and I think that up to the end of June of this year it had gone up to 65,000.
  Hon. Members have asked how those figures compared with catches other than drift net catches. Over the last ten years, the average numbers have been 225,000 salmon and 151,000 grilse, making a total of 376,000. I know that last year the figure was 370,000, which was about average. Against that, 9,000 salmon were caught by drift net in 1960, 28,000 in 1961, and 65,000 up to the end of June, 1962. This is a very steep rise, and the current figure represents a very considerable proportion of all salmon caught off the Scottish coast —particularly as it is by a new and un-traditional system of fishing.
  Mr. Temple: Are those the Scottish figures?
  Mr. Soames: Yes, they are the Scottish figures—
  Mr. Willis: What about the ordinary river net fishing figures for 1962?
  Mr. Soames: Those are collected at the end of the season. I do not have them for the first six months of this year, but I have no reason to suppose that they are unusual; I should certainly be surprised if they showed anything like the rise in the drift netting figures.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Fife, East (Sir J. Gilmour), referring to the Hunter Committee, asked, "Why pick on one type of fishing?" The answer is that it is not the traditional type of fishing that has been going on. The terms of reference of the Committee are:
  "To consider in the light of current scientific knowledge the extent to which fishing for salmon and trout by any method whether in inland waters or in the sea should be regulated, and to recommend such changes in the law as might be thought desirable."
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  Until the Report is in our possession, we have thought it right to prohibit in Scottish waters this new system of fishing which has caught such very large numbers of salmon in the last few years. Of course, when the Report is made, we shall be able to reconsider our decision in the light of the Report. It is not an agreeable thing to prohibit the catching of any type of fish on the high seas, but we felt that in the circumstances it was necessary for the preservation of this species.
  Several hon. Members have said, in effect, "You are stopping your own fishermen but you are allowing foreigners to fish." The point is that we have been faced with a threat to our salmon stocks. We have met this threat, which has come from our own fishermen and not from foreigners, by these Measures. It may happen that we may change them when we get the Hunter Committee's report. We are meeting the threat in this way and at this time. There has not been any evidence of foreigners indulging in this form of fishing off our shores. However, it is our intention to protect our salmon stocks. This we have now done as best we can. With respect therefore, it is pointless to say, "But what are you going to do about the foreigners?" because we have no evidence that foreigners are indulging in this form of fishing here.
  The House will recall that there is in operation in this country a landing ban on salmon applying to boats of any sort. We will do our best, should this threat extend to boats of foreign nationals, to meet it if and when it develops. As I say, the comments about foreigners do not present a case for our not meeting what we consider, rightly or wrongly, to be an existing and actual threat to our salmon stocks from this new type of drift netting from largish boats with extremely long nets.
  I was asked a number of questions about the licensing of fishermen in England and Wales as opposed to a prohibition in Scottish waters. The two situations are different because there has been a traditional history of fishing by smallish boats with smallish drift-nets for a century or more off the English rivers, mostly within three miles, but occasionally going beyond that limit.

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  At the moment they are licensed by river boards. As I say, this is a traditional form of fishing and it is not our intention to interfere with it. In other words, while it is not our intention to interfere with these vessels which have been fishing off the English rivers for one hundred years or more, it is equally, not our intention to permit Scottish boats to transfer their attention to English rivers.
  In saying that we intend to permit the continuation of the traditional types of fishing, I should point out that all the fishermen concerned have licences issued to them by the river boards. We shall, therefore, be guided by the boards on the question of issuing licences for fishing outside territorial waters.
  Mr. Woodburn: When the Minister refers to the three-mile limit, is that for England or Scotland?
  Mr. Soames: This matter is the subject of a special Act, and I am sure that the right hon. Member for Clackmannan and East Stirlingshire (Mr. Woodburn) knows all about it.
  I have explained what we intend to do. Some have taken a different view and have said that we should "wait and see." However, we shall await with interest the results of the Hunter Committee's deliberations. When one has a responsibility in these matters one is, perhaps, more apt to err on the side of caution than one's attitude might be without such responsibility. The Government have a responsibility to maintain our salmon stocks.
  it has been said that there is as yet no direct evidence to show that the stocks are being depleted by what is happening. But it is because we fear that they might that we have thought it necessary to introduce these Measures. I believe that the new Orders are the best that can be devised to suit the circumstances of our traditional salmon fishing interests, and I hope that the House will agree with the course we propose.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Resolved,
  That the Salmon and Migratory Trout (Prohibition of Drift-Net Fishing) Order, 1962, dated 4th July, 1962, a copy of which was laid before this House on 4th July, be approved.

  PROBATION OFFICERS
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Finlay,]
  11.25 p.m.
  Mr. Leo Abse: Of all the engineers in the Kingdom who may claim that they are making a major contribution to the nation's productivity, none, in my view, could claim to excel the contribution of the social engineers, of whom probation officers form perhaps the most important group. Their preventive work, at a cost of some £16 a case, has saved thousands who would otherwise be confined in prisons at a cost to the taxpayer of about £435 per prisoner each year.
  There is no doubt that the probation officer assists large numbers of people from being absurdly under-employed at almost useless work in a closed prison. If the criteria for the assessment of anyone's wages were to rest solely upon his productivity, in a fair assessment who could doubt that the probation officer would have nothing at all to fear? In fact, however, as we all know, the probation officer does work which cannot be measured in grossly material terms. Who could assess the value of the happiness brought about because of their success as marriage menders? Who, indeed, could assess in non-material terms the contribution which they make by giving to the community a healthy-minded child instead of an incorrigible delinquent?
  Nor when we speak of probation officers are we speaking of work amongst a small marginal fringe. How extraordinarily involved the probation officer has become in the life of the community is dramatically revealed in my own County of Monmouthshire, which has no more and no less of the world's troubles than any other county, where one person in every 120 for some reason ox another sought a probation officer's aid last year. In the County of Monmouthshire their help was sought in the case of 500 marriages. Most of that help was sought directly without the intervention or the prompting of any court. Of those 500 marriages where the parties substantially overcame their disharmony, in 300 the

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  probation officers had a rôle that was all-important
  All this is known of the distinguished work which this service is giving. The Morison Report has acknowledged the rôle of the probation officer. The late Home Secretary, whose pusillanimity in failing to fight for the probation officers in the Cabinet and who will rightly not be easily forgiven, and undoubtedly the present Home Secretary, will give praise to the probation officer.
  The probation officers however are not concerned with praise. They are today primarily concerned with pay. They do not seek a princely salary, but there is no doubt that their devotion and their dedication at this moment is being pitilessly exploited. They have seen the substantial increase which was recommended by the Morison Report completely ignored. They have seen that amount whittled down to the 10 per cent. increase recommended by the Joint Negotiating Committee. They have had offered this insulting 2½ per cent. and an equivocal statement that substantial increases will be made "at the appropriate time."
  The probation service, if it is to do its exhausting and harrowing work with any élan, which it must possess to be successful, has to have an answer to some important questions if it is to be saved from near demoralisation. I would put three of these questions tonight.
  Firstly, since it is said by the Government that there is no rigidity in the incomes policy and exceptions must be recognised, does the hon. and learned Gentleman unequivocally and unambiguously accept that the probation service is such an exception? The service is entitled to know now. By any yardstick, by the contribution they make productively or by their acceptance of the White Paper criteria of more exacting work or more onerous conditions, this service, in my view, qualifies.
  But the Government have not said that they regard it as an exception. By preferring 2½ per cent. they have implied otherwise. If the Government will not say so and do not believe that the service is an exception, the men in the service have a right to know this and judge their future. They have a right to know where they stand with a
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  Government who up to the present have been so badly equivocating.
  Secondly, the Government have said that there will be a substantial increase at the appropriate time. What is that substantial increase? If it is not to be given now, as I think it should be, those in the service are entitled to know at this time how much it is. Quite clearly, the Government could not talk of a substantial increase unless they had directed their mind to the nature and quality of that increase. Why, therefore, should there be this procrastination? Why should not the probation service be told now what is in the Government's mind? It is certainly necessary if the service is to be kept together.
  Thirdly, if the Government speak of giving them a substantial increase at the appropriate time, they are entitled to ask what is the appropriate time. Are the Government so lacking in plans and direction that they are unable or unwilling to give a definite date? I have no doubt that that date should be now, but if this cannot be or is not intended, let us know when it is to be, otherwise the demoralisation of the service will continue and will increase with what can only be lamentable results.
  How urgent these answers are and how important it is that there should be an end to the parsimony is revealed in the present state of the service. In the Principality of Wales, for example, it has led to large areas being without any full-time or Home Office trained probation officers. In Carmarthenshire, Breconshire, Cardigan, Montgomeryshire and Radnorshire there is not one full-time probation officer, never mind one who has had Home Office training. I believe that the same situation applies to Merionethshire. There is only a well-intentioned but professionally untrained part-time service. The case loads which are being borne both by the amateur probation officers who are unfairly called upon to do such delicate work without training and by those who are Home Office trained is scandalous. I know of one officer in Monmouthshire who at this moment has a case load of 242, or five times more than the figure recommended by the Home Offices.
  So primitive and parsimonious is the training system conducted by the Home

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  Office that in Wales it is the officers who are carrying case loads of this order who are expected to train those officers—and they constitute the majority in an area like Wales—who come into the service without any training at all.
  I believe that there are serious results as a consequence of the service being under-trained and over-burdened. Who can doubt that when the number of cases rise there must be a decline in the percentage of cases which expire satisfactorily? I have examined the position in South Wales and Monmouthshire. The statistics show that whereas 75·8 per cent. of cases expired satisfactorily in 1950, the percentage was 70·88 by 1956 and it had fallen to 60·66 by 1960. It is statistically inescapable that failure to pay and train probation officers satisfactorily has contributed directly to the growth in the incidence of crime.
  I sincerely hope that, for the sake of the community, the probation service this evening will not be given a dusty answer. I hope that on this occasion at last before the Recess they can hear something definite and categorical, and I believe that unless this is done we are in serious danger of a large number of good, dedicated men drifting away from this very fine service.
  11.35 p.m.
  The Joint Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Charles Fletcher-Cooke): The hon. Member for Pontypool (Mr. Abse) has very rightly stressed the cardinal importance of the probation system as a means of preventing and treating crime. Nobody who has had the responsibilities of my right hon. Friend who was until very recently the Home Secretary could be insensitive, faced as we are with a continually rising rate of crime, to the needs of the probation service. I am sure that both sides of the House will understand the very real regret with Which my right hon. Friend found it necessary to disappoint the probation officers over their salary increase. It was indeed a painful and difficult decision.
  The facts and history axe pretty well known by now, I think. The Morison Committee was appointed in May, 1959, and the Government's appointment of this Committee was a recognition that
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  the time had come to reassess the place of the probation officer and the probation service in the community, to consider whether the service needed improvement, and, if it did, to see how improvement could be effected.
  I should remind the House that in August, 1960, while the Committee was sitting, the probation officers received a negotiated salary increase of about 12½ per cent., but this was designed to enable the probation service to keep up with the general movement of incomes and it is not part of the Government's case that it at all anticipated the revaluation which the Morison Committee was later to make. The Morison Committee recommended very substantial salary increases indeed—for the basic grade, something of the order of 20 per cent. at the minimum, and 31 per cent. at the maximum, and for the higher grades greatly improved differentials involving increases for some officers of more than 40 per cent. It also made a number of recommendations about the salary structure.
  My right hon. Friend's immediate step on receiving the Report was to refer the proposals to the Joint Negotiating Committee for the Probation Service. He was criticised for taking this course when he knew that the Government's policy ruled out any immediate increase of more than 2½ per cent., but there are factors which this criticism ignores. Not only did the Morison Committee itself say that certain details of the pay scales would have to be left for negotiation, and, indeed, in paragraph 353 of its Report, deliberately left them for negotiation, but it was in the probation officers' interest that the matter should be brought within the ambit of the Joint Negotiating Committee so that they could if they wished take advantage of the right which the negotiating machinery gives them to seeking arbitration on their claim that the proposals should be met in full. If they had not been sent to the negotiating machinery they could not have claimed arbitration if they so wished.
  The Government did, however, make it clear to the Negotiating Committee from the outset that in the present phase of their incomes policy a recommended increase of more than 2½ per cent. was unlikely to be implemented by my right hon. Friend. The Joint

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  Negotiating Committee in full knowledge of the Government's attitude nevertheless recommended that there should be a 10 per cent. increase from 1st April last. The Government carefully considered the arguments which the Joint Negotiating Committee adduced, but could regretfully find no ground for departing from their previous view on the 2½ per cent., and my right hon. Friend so informed the Committee that he would not implement fully the 10 per cent. increase but would make rules giving an increase from last 1st April of 2½ per cent. and that he was ready to examine the wider claims of the service at the beginning of 1963.
  The Government have made it very clear but I want again to emphasise that the increase of 2½ per cent. in no way represents their view of the just salary level for probation officers. It is the probation officers' misfortune that the revaluation of their service should have become an issue at this difficult and critical stage in the development of an incomes policy.
  For the future, it must be possible to revalue one occupation relatively to others and the Government fully accept this need. The limitation of the probation officers to a 2½ per cent. increase has been imposed solely while the working out of an incomes policy is in the critical and intermediate phase to which I have referred. The need for a substantial increase in probation service salaries is accepted and the Government are prepared to consider the claims of the service at the beginning of 1963. I will not continue to repeat the natural disappointment which, I know, the probation service feels and which it has expressed.
  For the future, I can say this. The Government have certainly contemplated that the employers' side would proceed before the end of this year with their detailed consideration of the Morison recommendations, so that negotiations with the staff side could be resumed very early in 1963. This is in answer to one of the hon. Member's questions about dates. I assure the House that the Government would not wish to retard the progress of discussions one moment longer than the development of an incomes policy makes necessary.
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  I come now to the immediate position before that date. As I said earlier, my right hon. Friend informed the Joint Negotiating Committee that he proposed to make rules awarding a 2½ per cent. increase. The National Association of Probation Officers, at its annual conference on 18th May, passed a resolution in which it said that it rejected this proposal. My right hon. Friend thought it right to take no further action until the Joint Negotiating Committee had had the opportunity of considering the position. The Committee met on 5th July and I understand that the staff side made it clear that it was now interested in nothing short of the full implementation of the Morison Committee's recommendations as soon as possible and that the committee stands adjourned until a future date. My right hon. Friend will, of course, consider any recommendation that the Committee may make to him as to the eventual implementation of the Morison figures. I must, however, repeat that he cannot, at this time, go beyond his undertaking to examine the wider claims of the service at the beginning of next year.
  Meanwhile, however, my right hon. Friend has decided that he should no longer delay the implementation to the extent that is consistent with Government policy of the salaries increase that the Joint Negotiating Committee has recommended to him. He is, therefore, making rules which will increase the salaries of probation officers by approximately 2½ per cent. with effect, retrospectively, from 1st April last.
  The hon. Member for Pontypool echoed the anxiety expressed by the Morison Committee about the great influx into the service in recent years of persons who were not trained on appointment. As was stated in reply to a Question in May, nearly 45 per cent. of those entering the service in the last three years were in this category. My right hon. Friend wishes to create conditions as soon as possible in which only trained men and women can be appointed.
  It is, however, important to understand the circumstances in which this influx of direct entrants, as they are known, has taken place. Hon. Members will see from paragraph 265 of the Morison Report that the strength of the probation

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  service in England and Wales at the end of 1954 was 1,200. At the end of 1958, it had risen to 1,391, an increase of about 16 per cent. in four years. At the end of June this year, the strength was 1,838, an increase of nearly one-third in three and a half years.
  Over the whole short period of seven and a half years, the increase has been over 50 per cent. These figures indicate the enormously increased demands that have been made upon the probation service. No one could have foreseen the extent and persistence of that increase and it is accordingly an over-simplification to suppose that the intake of direct entrants could have been avoided if salaries had been higher. The reason for that is that the pre-entry training takes from one to three years and however many students had been attracted to the training by the thought of relatively higher salaries later, it would have been extremely difficult without resorting to direct appointments for an expansion of the necessary rate to have been accomplished in any case.
  Faced with this situation, my right hon. Friend's policy has been to provide the best possible training for the direct entrants while they are in posts, and this training takes usually one of three forms. These are described in the Morison Report, and I do not think the House would want me to repeat them now. They are geared to the needs of the situation, and have been most valuable, but, of course, they are only temporary and are not what we want to see as permanent arrangements because, exactly as the hon. Gentleman mentioned, we want to see the end, when we can, of the direct entrant and that of those who come along before going in for the relatively long period of training.
  This brings me to reminding the House that my right hon. Friend is reconstituting his Probation Officer and Training Board in September and that the new Committee will have an independent chairman, Mr. T. A. F. Noble, Vice-Chancellor-designate of Leicester University, as the Committee recommended. My right hon. Friend looks forward to the help of the Board in considering the valuable suggestions about recruitment and training that the Morison Committee has made.
  Since I know that the hon. Lady the
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  Member for Leeds, South-East (Miss Bacon) wishes to say a few words, and since this is a subject on which we very much value advice from all quarters of the House, I shall sit down. I should like to end by saying that it is, of course, not possible for me to answer the first two questions of the hon. Member tonight. He will understand that I have no cats to let out of the bag, or even kittens, but I can assure him that it is quite wrong to think that it would have been possible consistent with Government policy to have gone any further so far than we have gone in this very painful question of the probation officer's pay, but that the process of revaluation and the implementation of the spirit behind the Morison Committee Report has a very high priority in any relaxation of the incomes policy or any development of it which may take place in the near future.
  11.47 p.m.
  Miss Alice Bacon: I congratulate the hon. and learned Member on being in a position to stand at the Dispatch Box tonight to reply to the debate. I cannot congratulate him, though, on what he has said. We understood that because of events which have happened in the last few days we should probably see new policies with regard to increases in pay and perhaps see an end to the pay pause. But what we have heard from him takes us little further forward from where we were a few weeks ago.
  The hon. and learned Gentleman has gone over the history of the salary position with regard to probation officers. I stress what my hon. Friend the Member for Pontypool (Mr. Abse) said, that it is very shortsighted to keep probation officers with very low salary. Looking at it from a strictly financial point of view, it would surely be very much better to spend money in giving them better salaries so that we might save money on keeping people in detention centres, borstals, prisons and so on.
  The right hon. Gentleman who is now the First Secretary of State said on 10th May that he had sent this decision to the Negotiating Committee and it had come forward with a suggestion for a 10 per cent. increase. After that there was a debate in another place when the Government accepted a

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  Motion moved by a noble Friend of mine saying that there should be a substantial increase in salary for probation officers. The hon. and learned Gentleman has tonight repeated that. He said that the need for a substantial increase is accepted. What the probation officers want to know is when they are going to get that substantial increase.
  I am not sure whether I understood the hon. and learned Gentleman correctly. He made one announcement and has taken the position one stage further. If I understood aright, some time ago the probation officers rejected a 2½ per cent. increase in their salaries which they regarded as an insult. Now I understand from what the hon. and learned Gentleman has said that they are to be compelled to accept the offer which they have rejected.
  Mr. Fletcher-Cooke: Orders will be made and quite a considerable backlog of increased salaries will be paid consequently. If the probation officers reject the increase, that is something which the Chancellor of the Exchequer will like. The intention of the Home Secretary is to make the Orders and increased salaries will become legally payable. But what the recipients do with the money is their affair.
  Mr. Abse: The Government now intend to ram the insult down their throats.
  Miss Bacon: The hon. and learned Gentleman has put in more legal language what I was trying to say in the language of a layman. In other
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  words, they are to be compelled to accept a 2½ per cent. increase. We have had a disappointing reply from the Government. Far from being satisfied, the probation officers will regard this as an added insult. We thought that as a result of the events of the last few days we should see an end of the 2½ per cent. figure, particularly in respect of people like probation officers and nurses who are doing valuable work for the country. Now we learn from the hon. and learned Gentleman that although the shop window had been dressed, the goods axe still the same as ever. We still have the pay pause and the 2½ per cent. As my hon. Friend has said, these people are to have the insult rammed down their throats.
  Mr. Abse: Is it not an extraordinary position, and quite unheard of, that a pay claim should be imposed on workers in this way, unilaterally? It is an extraordinary thing that, despite what they said to the Joint Negotiating Committee, the Government should attempt in this way to deal by compulsion with a body of this kind. It is an undoubtedly serious psychological error to do this—one of the many blunders on which the Government have insisted against sections of employees who axe motivated not by grab but by dedication. The statement which has been made will be received not only with disappointment but, in view of this singular method of imposition of a payment, with considerable resentment.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Adjourned at six minutes to Twelve o'clock.

PENSIONS AND NATIONAL INSURANCE
  Hospital In-Patients
  Hospital In-Patients
  National Assistance
  National Assistance
  Bronchogenic Carcinoma
  Bronchogenic Carcinoma
  Haematite Miners (Lung Cancer)
  Haematite Miners (Lung Cancer)
ELECTRICITY
  Industrial Expansion (Supply Requirements)
  Industrial Expansion (Supply Requirements)
  New Power Stations
  New Power Stations
  North Eastern Electricity Board (Financial Objective)
  North Eastern Electricity Board (Financial Objective)
  South Eastern Electricity Consultative Council
  South Eastern Electricity Consultative Council
  Electricity Acts, 1947 and 1957
  Electricity Acts, 1947 and 1957
COAL
  Small Mines
  Small Mines
MINISTRY OF HEALTH
  Smallpox (Vaccination)
  Smallpox (Vaccination)
  General Practitioners, Monmouthshire
  General Practitioners, Monmouthshire
  International Vaccination Certificates
  International Vaccination Certificates
  Fluoridation
  Fluoridation
  Doctors, Emigration
  Doctors, Emigration
  Thalidomide
  Thalidomide
  Ants-Smoking Clinics
  Ants-Smoking Clinics
  Drugs
  Drugs
  Mental Nursing Homes
  Mental Nursing Homes
  National Assistance (Charges for Accommodation) Regulations
  National Assistance (Charges for Accommodation) Regulations
HOSPITALS
  Senior Registrars
  Senior Registrars
  Maternity Beds, Greater London
  Maternity Beds, Greater London
  Maternity Beds, Coventry
  Maternity Beds, Coventry
  Royal Liverpool Babies Hospital
  Royal Liverpool Babies Hospital
  Drugs
  Drugs
  Registrars, Sheffield and Manchester
  Registrars, Sheffield and Manchester
  Nurses and Midwives
  Nurses and Midwives
EMPLOYMENT
  Unemployment and Vacancies
  Unemployment and Vacancies
  Insured Employees, Scotland
  Insured Employees, Scotland
  Apprenticeships, Scotland
  Apprenticeships, Scotland
  Shipbuilding, Iron and Steel and PaperMaking Industries, Scotland
  Shipbuilding, Iron and Steel and PaperMaking Industries, Scotland
SCIENCE
  Meat Research
  Meat Research
  Plutonium
  Plutonium
  Air-Lubricated Bearings
  Air-Lubricated Bearings
  Hydrostatic Transmissions
  Hydrostatic Transmissions
  Water Pollution Research Laboratories, Stevenage and East Kilbride
  Water Pollution Research Laboratories, Stevenage and East Kilbride
  National Engineering Laboratory
  National Engineering Laboratory
  Hydraulics Research Station
  Hydraulics Research Station
  D.S.I.R. (Development Contracts)
  D.S.I.R. (Development Contracts)
  D.S.I.R. (Receipts from Industry)
  D.S.I.R. (Receipts from Industry)
AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD
  Sterilised Cream (Imports from Denmark)
  Sterilised Cream (Imports from Denmark)
  Railway Services, Wales
  Railway Services, Wales
  Deformed Piglets (Investigation)
  Deformed Piglets (Investigation)
MINISTRY OF AVIATION
  Aircraft Noise
  Aircraft Noise
BRITISH ARMY
  W.R.A.C. (B.A.O.R.)
  W.R.A.C. (B.A.O.R.)
HOME DEPARTMENT
  Probation Officers, Wales
  Probation Officers, Wales
SCOTLAND
  Industry (Re-rating)
  Industry (Re-rating)
ROYAL NAVY
  Branch Officers (Rank)
  Branch Officers (Rank)
NATIONAL FINANCE
  Woolsington Airport (Customs)
  Woolsington Airport (Customs)
HOUSING
  Housing Projects (Forward Contract Arrangements)
  Housing Projects (Forward Contract Arrangements)
  Slum Clearance
  Slum Clearance
LOCAL GOVERNMENT
  Local Government Commission for Wales
  Local Government Commission for Wales
  JAPAN (COMPENSATION PAYMENTS)
  JAPAN (COMPENSATION PAYMENTS)
TRADE AND COMMERCE
  European Economic Community
  European Economic Community
  Trade with Poland
  Trade with Poland

Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock, The LORD AILWYN on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Liverpool

LABELLING OF TEXTILES
2.34 p.m.
LORD CASEY: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will consider introducing legislation for the compulsory labelling of the fibre content of textiles described as wool, in view of the fact that the wool industries of the Common Market countries are already discussing a similar proposal in their own countries to facilitate international trade in wool textiles.]
THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD (EARL WALDEGRAVE): My Lords, the British Standards Institution has already made some progress in this matter by devising for woollen cloth a British standard known as B.S.2020 of 1953, and I understand that it is the general practice in the trade to have regard to this standard in describing woollen cloth. The British Standards Institution is, of course, alive to the importance of harmonising British and European standards in this as in other fields. I understand that the discussions referred to by the noble Lord have not so far been conclusive, and that the Commission of the European Economic Community have no immediate plans for making compulsory the labelling of the fibre content of textiles. In the United Kingdom—as I expect in Continental countries—the misdescription of goods exposed, offered for sale or sold is already against the law, and this applies to textiles described as wool.
LORD CASEY: My Lords, while thanking the noble Earl for his reply,
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might I ask whether it is not true to say that the popular descriptions that have been traditionally associated with woollen textile goods in the past—that is, such things as tweed, worsted, flannel and, in other connections, Axminster and Wilton—no longer have their old significance, in that they do not necessarily indicate any given percentage, high or low, of woollen content, and even, in fact, may not contain any wool at all? In to-day's circumstances, would the noble Earl agree that it is possible for the purchasing public to be unintentionally misled as to the content of the goods that they are buying?
Might I also ask the noble Earl whether Her Majesty's Government believe that, even against the background of what he has been good enough to say, further and more specific legislation is needed, under which the traditional descriptions of woollen goods should be reinforced by mandatory instructions, to indicate in any given woollen textile description the actual percentage of wool, in addition to the popular description, against the background of the importance of wool to the wool-producing countries of the world—
SEVERAL NOBLE Lords: Speech!
LORD CASEY: —and to Her Majesty's Government, with the export trade in our woollen textiles? Would the noble Earl agree that this matter is worthy of consideration by the Government, both from the United Kingdom's domestic point of view and also from the point of view of her export trade?
EARL WALDEGRAVE: My Lords, there is a large volume of legislation under the Merchandise Marks Acts, which range from 1887 to 1953, and I would remind the noble Lord that the main sanction in the whole of this matter is that misdescription is actionable under the law of this country. Since the beginning of 1959, I am told, the Board of Trade have prosecuted in fourteen cases in respect of suspected offences involving the use of the word "wool" or "woollen" in a way which was believed to constitute a misdescription, and thirteen convictions have been obtained. So I would wonder whether further legislation is actually required at the moment. The only further thing I would say is that the British standard is a voluntary standard but when there is an allegation

455
of misdescription the existence of the British standard, which has been accepted by the trade, is a very strong inference and guide as to what the particular commodity should, in fact, contain.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLS-BOROUGH: My Lords, how does this apply to so-called "woollen stuff", which is purchased in the form of suits or costumes composed of what I believe in the trade is termed "shoddy"? Are there any special merchandise marks for shoddy?
EARL WALDEGRAVE: I should need notice of that question, my Lords.
LORD BARNBY: My Lords, would the noble Earl bear in mind that this matter has been for long considered by the International Wool Textile Organisation; and, in connection with that, would he make recommendations that the labelling, if and when it comes, should include the proportion of the content of synthetic as against animal fibre? Secondly, since the noble Earl's reply referred specifically to woollen textiles, may I ask—so that there shall be no misconstruction of his words—whether it is right to understand that he intended to include worsted fabrics, which are of an entirely different structure from the woollen fabrics, and could not possibly contain any shoddy.
EARL WALDEGRAVE: My Lords, as to whether there should be mandatory labelling, this matter is very much more far-reaching than the adoption of standards, and I cannot say whether or not in the view of Her Majesty's Government it will be desirable to introduce legislation for compulsory labelling. In answer to the noble Lord's second supplementary, the Questioner was of course asking about woollen fabrics, and I was answering, to the best of my ability on behalf of my right honourable friend the President of the Board of Trade, on the subject of woollen fabrics.
LORD BARNBY: My Lords, the noble Earl did not take the opportunity of confirming that his intention was to cover worsteds as well as woollens.
EARL WALDEGRAVE: My Lords, I was not trying to deal with any intentions. What I was doing was quoting the fact that for woollen goods, woven
456
apparel fabrics containing wool, there is a British standard, No. 2020 of 1953. That is as far as I went, because that is as far as I thought I should be required to go from the Question that was on the Order Paper.
LORD DOUGLAS OF BARLOCH: My Lords, is the noble Earl aware that the customary labelling of woollen goods is extremely misleading to the consumer? For example, an article which is labelled "pure wool" contains nothing but wool, whereas one which is labelled "all wool" can contain other things.
EARL WALDEGRAVE: My Lords, I should have thought this was indeed a matter on which we may find guidance (I notice that the noble Baroness, Lady Burton of Coventry, is not here) when—not "if and when"—we receive the Report of the Molony Committee.
LORD CASEY: My Lords, could I pursue the noble Earl a little, and ask what would be the situation in respect Of British exports of woollen textiles from the United Kingdom to, say, Belgium, which has, as I understand it, quite precise legislation to the effect that the actual percentage of wool in any allegedly woollen garment is to be stated on the textile itself?
EARL WALDEGRAVE: My Lords, I really do not know the regulations in force in Belgium but I do know that there is Belgian legislation existing on this subject. I understand from our delegation in Brussels in connection with the Common Market negotiations that discussion is going on about this matter.

DUTIES ON TRADE WITH EIRE
2.42 p.m.
LORD BARNBY: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government with regard to trade with Eire whether they will state the respective values of the two-way trade in classes of manufactures which into Eire from the United Kingdom attract import duties, and which in reverse, if exported to the United Kingdom, presumably attract no duty.]
EARL WALDEGRAVE: My Lords, I regret that precise information is not available in the form requested. However, the published trade statistics of the Irish Republic show that, in the year 1961, the Irish Republic imported from the United Kingdom goods classified as "other raw materials and manufactured goods" to a value of about £106 million. The Irish Republic exported to the United Kingdom goods in this class to a value of some £30 million. In the year ended April 30, 1962, the value of British exports so classified which were nominally liable to duty under the tariff of the Irish Republic was about £63 million. In practice, a substantial pan of these goods entered the Irish Republic free of duty. This comprised some £14 million of goods exempted under various statutory provisions, and in addition a considerable volume of imports, to a value that cannot readily be ascertained, Which were admitted free of duty under licence. Some of these descriptions of goods, such as vehicles, clocks and watches, and articles containing man-made fibres, attract duty if imported into the United Kingdom from the Irish Republic.

CIGARETTE FILTERS AND LUNG CANCER
2.43 p.m.
THE EARL OF ARRAN: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether there is any evidence that the use of aqua-filters in any way reduces the dangers of lung cancer from cigarette smoking.]
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL AND MINISTER FOR SCIENCE (VISCOUNT HAILSHAM): My Lords, as it is not yet known which constituents of tobacco smoke cause lung cancer, the value of any form of cigarette filter cannot be assessed.
THE EARL OF ARRAN: My Lords, are Her Majesty's Government aware that there is an intensive campaign under way to popularise water filters on the ground that they provide the safest way to smoke cigarettes; and will
458
the Government, in the light of the lack of evidence to support the point, use all available means to inform the public that there is no reason to believe that these contraptions reduce the risks of lung cancer in any way whatsoever?
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, it is, as I say, not established what are the constituent parts of tobacco smoke which do the damage, and the public must draw their inference from that in judging the value of any advertisements. The water filters, of course, do remove substances from the smoke which can do you no good: whether they do you any harm at the same time is open to question. It may be like the holy water on Mount Athos—"It will do ye nae harm and it will do ye nae guid".
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL: My Lords, as the Royal College of Physicians, who were originally responsible for the recommendations on smoking which have been accepted by Her Majesty's Government, mentioned this matter, is the noble Viscount satisfied that what he has said can be reconciled with the statement by the Royal College?
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: I thought it was exactly in accordance with it, but I am willing to have my error pointed out and to wear sackcloth if it is not.
LORD DERWENT: My Lords, will the noble Viscount the Leader of the House approach my noble friend Lord Arran, remembering that he was willing to give himself for experiments as regards drink? Perhaps my noble friend will be prepared to give himself for experiments as regards smoking.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: The noble Earl, Lord Arran, has sacrificed himself once in the cause of science; but in order to achieve any notable results on him he would have to undergo a prolonged course of treatment.
LORD SALTOUN: My Lords, may I ask the noble Viscount whether there are any statistics on cancer in Turkey, where they smoke hookahs?
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: Ah, the hubble-bubble! But that is a kind of pipe, whereas the dock at the moment is occupied by the cigarette.
LORD WALSTON: My Lords, we have just heard from the noble Earl who replied to the earlier Question that there are fairly stringent regulations about the misrepresentation of various fabrics which one wears. Are there not also some regulations concerning misleading advertising; and if there are such, would not what the noble Earl read out to us from the advertisement possibly be considered to come under such regulations?
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: I should not like to pronounce upon a subject of that kind without re-reading the advertisements, which I am bound to say do not concern me and which, therefore, I passed over somewhat lightly. My Impression was, having looked at it again since my noble friend put his Question down, that the advertisement was very careful not to say anything about lung cancer.
THE EARL OF ARRAN: My Lords, while appreciating and being grateful to the noble Viscount the Leader of the House for What he has said, and to the House for the jovial manner in which it has taken the matter, may I at the same time point out that it is still a matter of life or death?

SAFETY BELTS
2.46 p.m.
LORD AIREDALE: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether their proposal to make safety belts compulsory is intended to apply to new commercial vehicles as well as to new cars; and to the actual wear-ling of safety belts.]
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF TRANSPORT LORD CHESHAM): My Lords, if I may answer the second part of the Question first, it is no part of my right honourable friend's intention to propose that the actual wearing of safety belts should be made compulsory. As to the type of vehicle to which the compulsory fitting of safety belts should apply, the House will be aware that regulations may not be made on, this subject until consultation has taken place with appropriate
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organisations. My right honourable friend considers that the most urgent need is to protect the occupants of the front seats of private cars, and his proposals will be primarily directed to that end. Application to commercial vehicles would involve a number of considerations, of which the pros and cons are by no means so easy to determine. We intend to follow the statutory procedure and obtain the views of the organisations concerned, notably the operators and the manufacturers, before coming to a decision.
LORD AIREDALE: I am much obliged to the noble Lord.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My Lords, will the noble Lord note that the reply he gave to the last part of the noble Lord's Question—that the Government have no intention of compelling passengers in motor oars to be trussed up in safety belts—will be greeted with considerable satisfaction?
LORD REA: My Lords, as the noble Lord considers that passengers will benefit from safety belts in front seats, will he also consider, perhaps, safety belts being attached to Front Benches?

UNITED NATIONS AND KATANGA
2.48 p.m.
LORD COLYTON: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question of which I have given Private Notice. The Question is:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what representations they have instructed Her Maejsty's Representative in New York to make to the United Nations authorities regarding the action of the local United Nations Commander in Katanga in cutting the last road connecting Elisabethville with the outside world.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (THE EARL of HOME): My Lords, representations have been made on the spot to the responsible United Nations authorities by Her Majesty's Ambassador in Leopoldville and Her Majesty's Consul in Elisabethville. I understand that the sole purpose of the road block was to control military movements, and I have received

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assurances that the United Nations forces have been instructed to do everything possible to avoid incidents. Her Majesty's Consul in Elisabethville has since reported that the atmosphere is much less tense and that traffic is passing freely both ways through the road block.
LORD COLYTON: My Lords, ten days ago the Secretary-General of the United Nations, U Thant, stated in London that the United Nations had no intention of imposing a political solution of the Katanga problem by force, and I gather from what my noble friend said and from what I have seen in the Press that this present action was taken on local initiative. I should like to ask my noble friend three questions. First, is it not a fact that this fresh action constitutes an open violation of the "hold-fire" of (I think it was) December 20 last? Secondly, despite the reassuring reports that my noble friend has received, has he not seen Press reports to the effect that these events might well lead to further fighting in the immediate future? Thirdly, may I ask him whether he will now make representations, or will instruct our representative to make representations, to the United Nations authorities in New York to restore the status quo, and to allow the traffic which is proceeding into and out of Elisabethville to be free and unrestricted by any military action?
THE EARL OF HOME: My Lords, my noble friend asks, "Is this not a breach of the 'hold-fire'?". As I understand it, there was an agreement between Mr. Tshoimbe and the United Nations forces that some 300 troops should come in for the so-called independence celebrations, and that in fact some 2,000 troops arrived. That is not unknown. The Lady Mayoress here invited, I think, 4,000 people to go to something in the City, and 30,000 turned up. I do not know that we need make too much of this. No shot, let us remember, has yet been fired, and Press reports to the effect that shooting might break out are a speculation which I hope will be falsified.
So far as representations in New York are concerned, U Thant is well acquainted with my views, which I have expressed to him time and again, that there is no solution to this matter if
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force is used; and he himself has said that he has no intention of using force. So I hope that this incident will be handled locally and sensibly, and that it will not involve the wider issues which are concerned in getting an agreement on the Constitution, and on a fair division of revenue between Mr. Adoula and Mr. Tschombe.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLS-BOROUGH: My Lords, whilst I agree especially with the last part of the statement of the Foreign Secretary, may I refer to an earlier matter he mentioned? Is it not reasonable for the United Nations authorities to make the kind of instruction which is complained of for the direction and control of troops if the Katanga people brought in six times as many troops as had been agreed upon between the two sides for the celebration? Was that not a perfectly reasonable attitude for the United Nations authorities to take?
THE EARL OF HOME: My Lords, it is difficult to judge these matters from this distance; but, of course, the United Nations troops are charged with preventing a situation arising which might lead to civil war. Whether this situation would in fact have led to any difficulty, I do not know, but in fact it did not, and therefore there is a difference of opinion as to Whether or not this action was wise. But the great thing is that now, as I have said, on the spot traffic seems to be passing freely backwards and forwards, so I profoundly hope that this particular incident is over.
LORD HENDERSON: My Lords, can the noble Earl say whether there is any truth in the Press statement that the Katanga gendarmerie threw stones at the United Nations forces? I think we all agree with, and accept, the statement by U Thant that there is no intention of imposing a solution by force; but it is surely the right of the United Nations forces to protect themselves if they are attacked in any way. I am asking whether there is any truth in the statement.
THE EARL OF HOME: My Lords, I have had no corroboration of Press reports to this effect.
LORD COLYTON: My Lords, referring to what the noble Viscount the Leader of the Opposition said, my noble

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friend had not seen one Press report, which quoted an Indian officer of the United Nations Forces as saying that "the Katangans have caused no trouble; we have no idea why we have been alerted".

HOUSE OF COMMONS MEMBERS' FUND BILL
Brought from the Commons; read 1a, and to be printed.
GLASGOW CORPORATION ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL
Brought from the Commons; read 1a, and (pursuant to the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1936) deemed to have been read 2a and reported from the Committee.
SHOPS (AIRPORTS) BILL
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.

TRINIDAD AND TOBAGO INDEPENDENCE BILL
2.56 p.m.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
EARL ST. ALDWYN: My Lords, I have it in Command from Her Majesty the Queen to acquaint the House that Her Majesty, having been informed of the purport of the Trinidad and Tobago Independence Bill, has consented to place Her Majesty's prerogative and interest, so far as they are affected by the Bill, at the disposal of Parliament for the purpose of the Bill.
THE MINISTER OF STATE FOR COLONIAL AFFAIRS (THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE): My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a second time. The object of this Bill is to provide for the independence of Trinidad and Tobago. I feel sure that your Lordships welcome the fact that at the recent Independence Conference it was the unanimously expressed wish of the delegates that Trinidad and Tobago should remain within the Commonwealth, and that they should continue in allegiance to Her Majesty The Queen as Queen of Trinidad and Tobago.
My Lords, it is now some 160 years since Trinidad was ceded to the British
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Crown, and in that period the population has risen from some 18,000 to over 800,000 people. As your Lordships know, it is one of the most cosmopolitan populations in the world. The two largest population groups are those of African and Indian descent, but in addition there are British, French, Spanish, Chinese and Syrian stock.
In recent years there has been the possibility of racial tensions, due to the fact that the Government Party was largely supported by people of African descent, and the Opposition Party largely by people of Indian descent. I am glad to say that the recently-concluded Independence Conference has made a big contribution towards the, easing of these racial tensions. For the Constitution agreed upon will provide considerable safeguards for minorities and the protection of human rights. The determination of the Prime Minister, Dr. Williams, and of the Leader of the Opposition, Dr. Capildeo, to work together and to unite the people in one nation has, of course, been a prime factor in allaying the anxieties of minority groups, and generally in reducing racial tension. In Trinidad and Tobago there has recently been great advance in the social field, particularly in education and in housing. I think it right that I should pay a tribute to Dr. Williams, whose energetic and imaginative leadership is so largely responsible for this progress.
As noble Lords are aware, the principal source of revenue of the country was originally from sugar. Later cocoa and citrus were developed. While not of primary economic importance to the country, I must also mention the Pitch Lake, and Angostura Bitters. But, most important of all, of course, my Lords, was the discovery of oil early this century. Great efforts have been made by the Government to diversify the industries of the country, and there are now a number of thriving industries manufacturing such things as textiles, industrial chemicals, cigarettes, cement, glassware, gramophone records, and so on. So Trinidad and Tobago will enter into independence in a strong economic position, and with good prospects for the future.
My Lords, this Bill is in a similar form to other Independence Bills which have been placed before your Lordships,

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and I do not think it is necessary to detain the House for long in explanation of it. Clause 1 provides for fully responsible status for Trinidad and Tobago. Clause 2 deals with the citizenship question on lines already embodied in several previous Independence Bills. Clause 3 provides for the consequential modifications to various United Kingdom enactments. Clause 4 gives the delimitation of the country of Trinidad and Tobago. Clause 5 is the short title. All the clauses are perfectly straightforward. I commend this Bill to your Lordships, and I am sure that it will receive support from all parts of the House. My Lords, I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(The Marquess of Lansdowne.)
3.0 p.m.
LORD WALSTON: My Lords, once more this is a Bill which we are delighted to welcome. Any step forward towards giving former Colonies their independence must be an occasion for rejoicing. But it is difficult, particularly on this occasion, to mention nothing except the rosy future that lies ahead. I do not want to be a pessimist, and I do not want to cast any gloom over what is undoubtedly a great and happy event; but Trinidad, like the other newly independent territories, has great problems, and I hope that the fact that the noble Marquess has spoken only briefly and cheerfully does not mean that he and Her Majesty's Government are unaware of these problems.
The noble Marquess was perfectly right in mentioning the racial difficulties—what he described as "the cosmopolitan society"—which exist in Trinidad and Tobago, and which are a very real danger. While I express my admiration for Dr. Eric Williams, in his capacity as Prime Minister of Trinidad and Tobago, an extremely able politician and a statesman, and also for Dr. Capildeo, who I am certain is a fine leader of the Opposition, I must frankly say that both these gentlemen and their followers, great though their qualities may be and great though their patriotism for their own country's welfare may be, are not necessarily the people who are going to minimise the real racial tension which exists at the present time in the two islands and make it disappear altogether. The mere fact that independence
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has been achieved does not mean that racial tension will automatically disappear. I think that that is something we -must face, however unpleasant it is to have to say.
I am happy to see from the White Paper, which is the framework of the Constitution (and once more I must say that I should be much happier if on these occasions we were able to see the actual Constitution before such a debate as this took place), that one of the "ordinarily entrenched provisions" relates to human rights and fundamental freedoms. I cannot help feeling that it seems to be an extraordinary sense of proportion in those who have appended their names to this White Paper, who include not only the Prime Minister of Trinidad and Tobago and the Leader of the Opposition, but also Her Majesty's Secretary of State for Commonwealth Affairs at that time, that the provisions relating to human rights and fundamental freedoms come under ordinarily entrenched provisions, whereas among the important matters under the head of especially entrenched provisions is the remuneration of the Governor General. Surely it cannot be asserted that there is anything more important to entrench in the Constitution of any country, even our own, than the provisions relating to human rights and fundamental freedoms, above all in a country such as Trinidad and Tobago, with the difficulties which the noble Marquess has mentioned. To put those provisions as of ordinary or rather minor importance, and the remuneration of the Governor General as being of greater importance, cannot be the right way to start off with due regard to the social rights and fundamental freedoms of individuals in this new country. I hope that serious thought will be given to this point by Her Majesty's Government and by the islands themselves, because I look on this as one of the fundamental difficulties which will arise in Trinidad and Tobago now that they have their independence.
There are other problems which face these two islands. First of all, there is the straightforward economic problem. The noble Marquess has referred to the fact that there have been conversations with Dr. Eric Williams on this aspect. I hope that he is satisfied, but if one can

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go by what has been said by Dr. Williams on his return home, he has certain doubts and reservations as to whether this country is, in fact, going to do what at least we on this side of the House should like to see it do in helping Trinidad and Tobago to achieve real economic viability. We cannot allow the fact that former Colonies have become independent in any way to interfere with our obligations to them to see that they progress economically, as well as socially, in the way they wish to and we wish to see them, go. I hope that the noble Marquess will be able to assure the House that the aid we are morally bound to give will be forthcoming in fact, and that any misgivings and fears which Dr. Williams may have are entirely unfounded.
Turning to the actual economic situation in Trinidad, as the noble Marquess told us, the islands now have a population little short of one million. It has risen rapidly over the past twenty or thirty years. The islands enjoy, so far as the Caribbean area goes, a high standard of living among certain individuals and have an advancing economy. But, as your Lordships know, their economy is based on oil. Eighty per cent. of the export trade is in oil, and 40 per cent. of the revenue comes from oil. This makes the economic problem a dangerous one, and one particularly doubtful at the present time, with the Common Market negotiations that are going on. I hope that in these negotiations we shall not take as an example to be followed the arrangements already reached with the Dutch possessions of Aruba and Curacao, although conditions there are different from those in Trinidad.
Leaving the economic side but remaining with oil for a moment, the economic and social evolution of Trinidad is different from that of many other islands because of oil. The wealth which has come to the islands has come entirely from one economic sphere, and as a result other economic development has been largely neglected. Above all, agriculture, which is normally the mainstay of such islands, has fallen far behind. I am not referring to sugar, which is an efficient and important industry, and which I hope will be continued to be safeguarded by the Commonwealth Sugar Agreement; nor to the agriculture
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which is carried on in large plantations, but to the smaller people whose farms should provide the major part of the food for the islands. Production from these farms has fallen so much behind that it is incapable of supporting the rural population in a condition of life which is in any way comparable to the wages which can be earned in the oil industry. This has led to a movement of people from the land, to a rapid urbanisation of a society which is not used to such things, and to the creation of appalling slums, shanty towns and overcrowding, together with juvenile crime and all the other things which go with these conditions.
My Lords, all these social evils, including racial hatred, envy of those who have and disillusionment among those who have not, are the things which make it so hard to build up a really stable democracy, no matter how admirable the leaders of the Government and the Opposition may be. We can still help in many ways; but, above all, we can help with financial and material aid. Once more I would ask the noble Marquess to give us an assurance that this aid will be forthcoming, and that our responsibility towards these two islands will remain just as real as ever it was. Unless that happens, no matter how sincere our wishes are for the happy future of these islands, there is little chance of those wishes being fulfilled. Our wishes for them are good wishes, but I hope that there will be action to go along with them.
3.11 p.m.
LORD OGMORE: My Lords, I should like, from these Benches, to welcome this Bill and to express our hope that Trinidad and Tobago as a new State will have a successful voyage into the future. But, before saying anything about Trinidad and Tobago, I should like to say a word or two about the remarkable event that has just happened with regard to the Colonial Office, whose representative we have here to-day. We have now come round almost full circle after 37 years. When we left here on Thursday evening there were two Secretaries of State and two separate Departments of State. To-day, after the chopper has come down on a big scale, there is one Secretary of State, and for the time being—although I think it is

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only for the time being—two Departments. In case the two Departments are merged when the House is in Recess, as may well happen, I think we should pay tribute to the Colonial Office—which, as I say, has ceased to be as an independent Office with its own Secretary of State—for the great work it has done throughout the centuries it has been in existence, starting, as it did, as the Department of the Plantations, and at one time exercising, in so far as they were exercised, some of the functions of the War Office. It is an Office in which many distinguished statesmen started their ministerial careers, including Mr. Gladstone, Sir Winston Churchill and, as no doubt the Prime Minister will remember, Mr. Phineas Finn.
I am not at all sure that this is the right moment to have this merger of responsibility, because, so far as I can see, there is an enormous amount of work in the Colonial Office which falls to the head of it individually. Just lately I have been engaged, as has the noble Marquess, Lord Lansdowne, in the Uganda Conference—and we have two or three others coming on. I do not know how Mr. Sandys is going to manage with the Prime Ministers' Conference looming up and the functions that will fall to him to perform personally. I hope it does not mean that the Colonies that remain will be pushed in the background and have less attention given to them than they should have: because this is an important stage in their evolution.
The Colonial Office to-day is very different from the days when the late H. G. Wells wrote Ann Veronica. Your Lordships may remember that when one of Ann Veronica's suitors came to see her in South Kensington she asked him what he did for a living; and he said he was an official in the Colonial Office,
"a post which does not unduly interfere with my leisure."
I do not think anybody would say that to-day, because the officials there are hard pressed. The only way in which the Secretary of State will be able to do the work is to have a sound system of devolution. I do not know whether the noble Marquess and the noble Duke opposite will be beneficiaries or otherwise of that system; but we are, at any rate, glad to see them here to-day. One
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almost wonders Who one will see when one next comes to the House. However, let us hope that they remain with us.
To turn now to the Bill——
SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS: Hear, hear!
LORD OGMORE: Well, a little introduction is always welcome, especially when there have been such changes as have taken place over the weekend: surely one is entitled to make reference to them.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLS-BOROUGH: There is still hope for the rest.
LORD OGMORE: To turn to the Bill, the new State has considerable advantages, and rather unusual ones in these days. As the noble Marquess said, it is viable; it has a favourable balance of trade. That, as I say, is a considerable achievement these days because in most cases in which we have been granting Constitutions the countries have been doubtfully viable, to put it at its highest. So Trinidad comes forward under a very favourable wind. It also has, as the noble Marquess said, a mixed economy. It is not tied, as so many of the territories we have been considering are, to a single crop, and one that is very much at the mercy, as a single cash crop usually is, of world markets.
The disadvantage (and I think the noble Marquess skated a little smoothly over this) is that politics in Trinidad, as in British Guiana, are on an Afro-Asian basis: not the Afro-Asian basis of the United Nations, where they are generally joined in criticising everybody else, but an Afro-Asian basis in which they criticise each other. This is an unfortunate situation. I do not think there will be political health in Trinidad and Tobago until politics get on a sounder basis than depending on the particular race to which the voter or the member of the Party happens to belong. We have found elsewhere that when a political system is based on race it is a very weak one and generally leads to trouble in the end. I hope that Trinidad and Tobago will get away from that.
So far as their relationships with other countries are concerned, I would say that, unlike Jamaica, Trinidad and Tobago are not sufficiently close to the United States. They are too critical of

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the United States, and they do not sufficiently take into account the great deal of help they could get from that country if they were prepared to accept it. So far as their relationships with ourselves are concerned, as Lord Walston said, Sir Eric Williams, the Prime Minister, has, rightly or wrongly, been very critical of our help. So perhaps when the noble Marquess comes to reply he can give us an indication of whether he thinks there is anything we could or should do to satisfy Sir Eric Williams, or whether he thinks that all that we have done is enough.
I should just like to say a word of welcome to Trinidad and Tobago from another angle. In the Schedule to the Bill there is a reference to the admission of the new State as a member of the Commonwealth Institute. As a Governor of the Institute, I should like to welcome them, and I hope that they will play their full part and take a keen interest in the affairs of the Institute. It so happens that the interest of Commonwealth countries in the Institute is rather patchy; some are very good and take a good deal of interest, but others do not. It is, in my view, a most important organisation. It is the only organisation, so far as I am aware, which is maintained and supported by all the independent Members of the Commonwealth; it is a true Commonwealth organisation, although, of course, in the main, the support comes from Her Majesty's Government.
Finally, I should like to ask the noble Marquess a few questions, and if he cannot answer them to-day perhaps he will be able to do so during a later stage of the Bill. First of all, what is the position of Chaguaramas base? Is it affected at all by this new arrangement? Secondly, do any of the eight smaller Colonies want to join with Trinidad and Tobago? I have heard it said that Grenada wishes to join with them and to leave the suggested Federation which the United Kingdom is proposing. Is there any truth in that, and what is the United Kingdom attitude to such a suggestion or wish, if Grenada puts it forward?
Finally, what is the position of the common services? To what extent will Trinidad and Tobago be entitled to take advantage of them? Your Lordships will perhaps remember that when the
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West Indies Federation broke up recently it was decided to keep on the common services—or, at all events, some of them—and a high official was sent out from this country in order to take charge of them. I remember the noble Lord, Lord Walston, in a previous debate expressing the wish that these services should not be allowed to die away. They are highly important in this area, and it would be most unfortunate if such a strong territory as Trinidad and Tobago were to depart from the common services scheme on becoming independent. With those few comments, and the questions that I have asked, may I reiterate my good wishes for the new State of Trinidad and Tobago?
3.22 p.m.
LORD COLYTON: My Lords, I rise to join with other noble Lords in offering a warm welcome to this Bill. I should also like to join the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, in paying a tribute to the work of the Colonial Office and its officials, at home and abroad. I must confess that, having paid three visits to Trinidad as Minister of State for the purpose of negotiating the establishment of the Federation of the West Indies, my welcome of the Bill to-day is tinged with regret that we are not now welcoming a Bill for one independent Federation of the British Caribbean territories. I still hope that one day it may be possible for them to move closer together politically for I feel sure that one great single unit in the Caribbean, imbued with the traditions of British democracy and justice, could have been, and still could be, a great bastion of freedom, security and common sense in a region which has not always been notable for those qualities. Meanwhile, however, Trinidad and Tobago will now get the opportunity to "go it alone" in circumstances in which we hope will prove to be both politically and economically successful.
On the political side, Trinidad and Tobago are entering into independence under excellent auspices. Dr. Williams, a statesman with remarkable knowledge of the workings of democracy, and the determination and drive to put it into practice, is their Prime Minister. They also have an efficient Opposition under Dr. Capildeo, who may be trusted to keep a watchful eye on the Government's activities. Here I should like to refer

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to the statement by Dr. Williams and Dr. Capildeo at the end of the Marlborough House Conference, to the effect that they were united in their determination that they would work together to make Trinidad and Tobago into one country with one nation.
I should also like at this time to pay a tribute to my old friend, Mr. Albert Gomez, who did so much in the past to develop Constitutional progress in Trinidad and Tobago. Incidentally, it is of interest to note that for the first time, so far as I know, in any Commonwealth Constitution a leader of the Opposition is to be appointed by the Governor-General who will act on his "own deliberate judgment", and will select as leader of the Opposition in the House of Representatives the head of the Party Which in his view commands the largest number of Members. Certainly welding together the very diverse races which inhabit Trinidad and Tobago, including persons of African, Indian and Chinese descent, as well as those of many other European origins, will not be an easy task, as the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, has said. However, I feel sure that the great natural intelligence of the people of Trinidad and Tobago, fortified by the British Parliamentary institutions and the rule of law which they enjoy will enable them successfully to contend with those difficulties.
As has been said already, the territory of Trinidad and Tobago starts from a strong economic position. With her oil deposits, the great pitch lake, and her agricultural resources, Trinidad is far and away the best-equipped territory in the British West Indies economically to embark on the path of independence. But this does not mean that we in this country should be forgetful of her needs, and here I should like again to make a plea for the alteration of the powers of the Colonial Development Corporation to enable them to initiate new schemes in newly independent members Of the Commonwealth. With the number of dependent territories dwindling year by year—almost month by month—the scope of the Colonial Development Corporation is now becoming seriously restricted. My honourable friend the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies in another place the other day gave a slight hint that something was in fact
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brewing. I hope that that is so, and that we may have an announcement on the subject before Parliament rises.
My Lords, I should like to say one more word on the economic side; and that is, as has been done already by the noble Lord, Lord Omore, to urge on the leaders of Trinidad and Tobago (and this applies equally to Jamaica) that they should give the utmost support and encouragement to the arrangements for continuing the common services for the West Indian territories. Sir Stephen Luke has been entrusted with working this out, and certainly no one could be better qualified to do so. I hope and trust that the contacts which these common services will involve will help to harmonise the policies of these territories in a still wider field, including, I hope, that of concerting political action.
Finally, I should like to refer to one matter which gives me some concern. As in the case of Jamaica, this Bill contains no provision whatever for any arrangements for defence. Unfortunately, I could not be in the House when the Jamaica Independence Bill was debated on Second Reading, or I should have raised the point then. The position is perhaps more acute in the case of Jamaica, owing to her proximity to Communist Cuba. It cannot be a very comfortable position for a country to be lying a bare 90 miles from a bellicose dictator such as Dr. Castro, who has already proved himself only too ready to indulge in acts of subversion in other Caribbean and Central American countries, and who has all the necessary material to hand, in the form of Russian jet aircraft and tanks. Against this, all that Jamaica can put up, as I understand it, is one battalion of the West Indian Regiment, with no artillery or aircraft.
It could be argued that Trinidad and Tobago are far removed from immediate danger, but it would be absurd to ignore the fact that Communist subversion is taking place throughout Latin America, and that Venezuela is one of the main targets. Trinidad lies only seven miles from the coast of Venezuela, and it has in the past frequently been the first place of refuge for political leaders from Venezuela who have been overthrown in some revolution. One cannot dismiss the possibility of a situation arising in

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which a successful coup in Venezuela led to a wholesale influx of non-Communist leaders and refugees into Trinidad. Nor can one ignore the possibility that the Communist régime in Venezuela would exploit the difficulties arising out of such a situation to threaten and perhaps even to invade a small and wealthy neighbour such as Trinidad, which at present, apart from the American base at Chaguaramas, which is already greatly depleted, has no defences of any kind. There is no NATO ORGANISATION, no SEATO, no CENTO in the Caribbean.
Should we not, when granting independence to these small territories in the West Indies, at least give them some kind of guarantee of military assistance in case of need, and, at the same time, work out with them defence plans to make such assistance effective? Of course, this would have to be done by agreement with them, and it may be that some wider form of defence organisation in which the United States could also play a part would be more appropriate. But I really do feel that to leave these small, new, independent countries in this troubled world with virtually no arrangements for defence is a grave breach of our responsibility. Having said this, my Lords, I should only wish to conclude by repeating how warmly I welcome this Bill as a whole and express my best wishes to the Government and the people of the Kingdom of Trinidad and Tobago, as it is described in their Constitution, for a successful and prosperous future as a member of our Commonwealth of Nations.
3.32 p.m.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLS-BOROUGH: My Lords, before the noble Marquess replies, and if no one else is going to speak, I should like to say just a word or two. Of course, we all welcome this Bill. I must say, however, that I was profoundly disappointed with the tone of the parting message which Dr. Williams gave on leaving this country and the great publicity which was given to it over the broadcasting service. While I welcome very much the introduction of this Bill of independence, I should have hoped that we might this afternoon have a firm lead from the Government as to what real
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help is going to be given to this country of Trinidad and Tobago; particularly in view of the publicised statements of Dr. Williams that they could not rely upon us and must seek to go on their own and look to other quarters. That is the general interpretation I put on this speech of farewell. I am pretty anxious about that and I hope the noble Marquess, Lord Lansdowne, will be able to tell us what was the nature of the discussions between Dr. Williams and his Department and what is likely to be done along the lines that Dr. Williams obviously had in mind to secure substantial help and assistance and, I take it, some assurance on defence.
The other thing I should like to say is that the White Paper on this Bill is perhaps the best in the present circumstances that could be obtained, but I feel that the Department and the Minister will have to watch carefully the effect of paragraphs 36 and 37. I noted that the noble Lord who has just sat down said a word which I thought was rather in praise of paragraph 36, about leaving the appointment of the Leader of the Opposition to the Governor General. How ever circumstances may have led him to think that that was a good permanent principle with an independent country, it seems to me to be a little difficult to understand.
LORD COLYTON: I merely drew attention to it as an innovation.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLS-BOROUGH: I see; I am much obliged. I dare say, from inquiries I have been making in the meantime through my noble friend Lord Walston and others, that no doubt the present organisation there of the Opposition, or Oppositions, would not always be fruitful in throwing up a clear-cut, outstanding leader of an Opposition. But if you grant independence to a country of this kind, then surely people who are dissident from the majority at an election should have the power to appoint their own leader unless there is some very special objection to it. We do not have to go to Her Majesty for approval of a Leader of the Opposition whether he be Labour, Liberal, or, as perhaps he may be in the future, Conservative. I do not think we should like it altogether.

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I think therefore that we ought to have some note of this point made and see what is going to happen.
Paragraph 37 of this White Paper says:
"The Governor-General will be required to act on the advice of the Cabinet in the exercise of his functions except in respect of"—
then come two items—

"(a) any function in respect of which he is required to exercise his own deliberate judgment; or

(b) any function in the exercise of which he is required to act on the advice of persons or authorities other than the Cabinet."

I know it is very early days for this new independent State, hut I hope we may get from the noble Marquess some idea of exactly what are the functions paragraph 37 of the White Paper is expected to cover. Certainly the administration of the Governor General in these respects will he followed intensely closely by the citizens of Trinidad and Tobago and we ought to know exactly what these functions will actually cover. Perhaps the noble Marquess could tell us some more about this in the course of his winding up speech in this debate.
The other thing I want to say is this. I support most strongly what the noble Lord, Lord Colyton, said about the rendering of help to a State of this character. It is a great disappointment to many of us—for example, those who have watched the work of the Colonial Development Corporation—that directly a State becomes independent, however handicapped it is at present in development, it shall per se be ruled out straight away of any further arrangements for help from the Colonial Development Corporation. I know the title of "Colonial" was so separate from anything else and that it entitled only those to whom it applied to be eligible for help. Now that these two Offices are united together I should not have thought it was altogether out of place to make this a time for a re-examination of the limits of that Corporation and to see whether the Minister who will now be Secretary of State for both the Commonwealth and the Colonies might have a proper and beneficial eye to aid these particular States. I hope we may have an answer to these points.
3.39 p.m.
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: My Lords, I am sure it will be a source of satisfaction to the people of Trinidad and Tobago that this Bill has received such a warm welcome from all parts of the House. I think that perhaps I should at once say something about the question of the racial tensions, to which the noble Lord, Lord Colyton, referred, reminding us of the observations made by Dr. Williams and Dr. Capildeo at the end of the Marlborough House Conference. I should particularly like to remind the noble Lord, Lord Walston, of this. Of course, life in a cosmopolitan country such as Trinidad is indeed much more complicated, but should it not be a source of great satisfaction to us all that the Leader of the Government there and the Leader of the Opposition have expressed their determination that all races in Trinidad and Tobago should be given an opportunity to work together; that the Government should not be conducted on a racial basis; and that it is their purpose to see that their country is united and welded together as one people? I hope that, in expressing our good wishes to the people of Trinidad and Tobago, we shall not for one moment suggest that we feel any doubt of their determination to do this.
Perhaps I might digress for a moment. I remember not long ago finding myself in Caracas, the capital of Venezuela, a country which has been alluded to today. I was in the great military circle which was built at great expense by the late Dictator Pérez Jimenez, and I remember seeing a huge mural. It represented the Arms of Venezuela being cut by hammer and chisel by three types of men, an Indian, a Spaniard and an African. This made a very deep impression on me. Here was a graphic representation of a real attempt at multi-racialism. Let us not be pessimistic about the prospects of Trinidad and Tobago. Let us believe in their leaders. Let us hope that they will, in fact, heal the divisions which were at one time evident among them. There has been in this respect a great improvement in recent times, and it is my hope, as I am sure it is the hope of all noble Lords here, that this will continue.
The noble Lord, Lord Walston, referred to the question of human rights and how these are entrenched in the

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Constitution. It is perfectly true, as he says, that human rights and fundamental freedoms come in Appendix B in the ordinarily entrenched list—a fact which seemed strange to the noble Lord, Lord Walston, who wondered whether there was some misapplication of emphasis, if I may put it that way. Perhaps I can help the noble Lord here. What in fact happened was that at the Conference there was quite a degree of disagreement on how the human rights and fundamental freedoms should be entrenched in the Constitution. It was, in fact, a ruling of my right honourable friend. He suggested this compromise, which was accepted, after considerable discussion, by all.
But I think I should point out this: that the Constitution will provide that in times of emergency the Government may act contrary to the human rights provisions. That is inevitable in times of emergency. But in order to prevent unreasonable suppression of such rights during such a period, it was agreed that a provision would be included which would give the courts power to determine whether any derogation from fundamental rights and freedoms was reasonably justifiable for the purpose of dealing with the situation as it existed at the time. Appeals from the decision of the courts in these matters can be made to the Privy Council. The period was also agreed during which such an emergency could remain in force; if it was to be extended, it could be done only by a vote of a majority of the House of Representatives; and actually it could only run for six months without another vote being taken. So I rather hope that the noble Lord, Lord Walston, who I think is perfectly right to raise this point, will realise that although in fact the human rights and fundamental freedoms are described only as ordinarily entrenched, there are very considerable safeguards ending up finally with an appeal to the Privy Council. I hope he will no longer feel that this Constitution is too loosely drawn in this respect.
LORD WALSTON: My Lords, may I ask the noble Marquess a further question? I am grateful to him for explaining it so fully. As I understand it, the ordinarily entrenched provision of the Constitution can be changed only by a certain majority in Parliament. Where
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there is a specially entrenched provision it requires a greater majority in order to change it. All I was drawing attention to was the fact that it appeared from this that we were prepared to allow such laws as will at present exist to be changed when they relate to human rights sooner than we would those which relate to the emoluments of the Governor General. That was the specific point which the noble Marquess has not answered.
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: I quite take the point, and I had hoped that I had answered it. I was trying to explain that there was considerable disagreement on this, but I think the noble Lord will find in effect that the human rights, although in this list described as ordinarily entrenched, are in fact very deeply entrenched, because of the appeal to the courts and from the courts finally to the Privy Council. In effect—which is what matters—I think the noble Lord will agree they are very well entrenched That was the point I was trying to explain to the noble Lord.
There were other points to which the noble Lord, Lord Walston, and other noble Lords, drew my attention. I think the noble Viscount, the Leader of the Opposition, the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, and the noble Lord, Lord Colyton, have all been somewhat disturbed by the observations which Dr. Williams is alleged to have made. I do not know exactly what Dr. Williams said. I have two newspaper cuttings here, which no doubt noble Lords have also seen, but I take it to be the case that Dr. Williams, on his return, has said to his people that of course they must, in so far as they are able, fend for themselves. After all they are getting independence.
If Dr. Williams did in fact say these things, it would be a sad thought to me that he implied by them that after independence we, in the United Kingdom, no longer cared. As the noble Viscount the Leader of the Opposition and other noble Lords know, this is quite untrue. It is not the case that we no longer care, and I think a perfectly good proof of this, if proof is required, is the immense amount of trouble to which we have gone in the Common Market negotiations to see that the people of Trinidad and

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Tobago get as fair a deal as it is possible to get. Furthermore we hope Dr. Williams himself will participate later on in the discussions with Commonwealth Prime Ministers on this subject. I regret it if Dr. Williams did in fact say what he is alleged to have said. Perhaps he put rather too much emphasis on the need for the peoples of Trinidad and Tobago to paddle their own canoe. But do not let us assume for one minute that the British people, the people in the United Kingdom, are saying goodbye and we no longer care any more. This is certainly not the case. I am very grateful to noble Lords for having given me the opportunity this afternoon of saying this so that it can be brought into perspective in Trinidad. I am grateful to the noble Viscount the Leader of the Opposition.
On the question of revenue, of course I am not trying to pretend that everything is going to be easy for Trinidad and Tobago. They will have difficulties as indeed all new independent countries will have difficulties. What I was trying to say was that Trinidad and Tobago enter into their independence with a very high degree of economic viability. But, of course, at the same time they are vulnerable, because, as the noble Lord, Lord Walston, reminded us, a very large proportion of their revenue is derived from oil. I think it is for this reason that the Prime Minister and others in the Government have gone to such pains to try to diversify, as far as possible, the industrial life of the country, and I think they deserve every congratulation for this.
I was interested to hear the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, about departmental reorganisation here, but in no way has it any bearing on what we are discussing this afternoon. So I cannot in any way comment on that, beyond saying just one thing which I am quite certain that the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, knows as well as anybody else in your Lordships' House. There is certainly going to be no question whatsoever of Her Majesty's Government paying less attention, giving less time and devoting less energy to the affairs of the Colonies than heretofore. Of course that is not going to be the case, and I am certain that the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, realises that.
LORD OGMORE: My Lords, I am glad to hear it. But I just wanted to point out that there is a limit to what any one man can do, however capable that man may be. Mr. Sandys has all the problems of the Prime Ministers' Conference, and so on, to face. Will he be able physically to devote the amount of time that Mr. Maudling was able to devote to these grave problems of the emergent territories? That is what I had in mind. I should have thought it quite a proper observation.
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: My Lords, of course the noble Lord is entitled to ask such a question; but I think, equally, he must admit that I am entitled to reassure him that Her Majesty's Government have no intention whatsoever of not giving all the regard which is necessary and should be given to the Colonies, as heretofore. I can only repeat what I have already said. The noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, also asked me something which has a bearing on what we are discussing this afternoon—namely, the position about the Chaguaramas base. The position is unaltered, because the Government of Trinidad and Tobago, as is said in the White Paper, assumes all the treaty obligations which already exist. So that so far as the Chaguaramas base is concerned, the situation is unaltered.
The noble Lord also asked me whether there was any sign of other territories in the area wishing to join with Trinidad and Tobago. The answer to that is that, so far, there is none of which I am aware. But like the noble Lord, Lord Colyton, and other noble Lords Who have spoken, I think we all feel it is sad that the West Indies Federation came to an end, and despite this we all hope that these countries will tend more and more to work together. I believe that in the fullness of time something of this nature will take place.
The noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, also asked me about the common services. I promised last week, when speaking on the Jamaica Independence Bill, to give your Lordships any information I could. Representatives of all the countries in the area, as I reported to your Lordships, met on July 10, and their Conference is still in progress. The discussions are confidential, and so I cannot disclose in

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detail to your Lordships exactly what is taking place, but I understand that the Conference got off to a very good start indeed; such important matters as the University of the West Indies, the meteorological service and the shipping service are matters which are receiving serious consideration, and we have every reason to hope that the outcome of this Conference will be satisfactory and that these valuable common services will be continued in so far as that is possible. But, of course, this is a question for agreement between the territories concerned.
As for the Colonial Development Corporation, the noble Viscount the Leader of the Opposition said that he hoped he might get some satisfactory answer this afternoon. I do not think he seriously expected a statement from me this afternoon. I should greatly have liked to be able to give an answer, but I am not in a position to do so. Noble Lords who study Hansard closely may perhaps have drawn certain conclusions. Whether or not they are entitled to draw those conclusions I am not in a position to say; but I perfectly appreciate that, with the contraction in colonial responsibilities, there is a good case for the Colonial Development Corporation's being able to assume other responsibilities. I am afraid that this afternoon I cannot give any definite undertaking on that point.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLS-BOROUGH: My Lords, I thought that the slashing of members of the Government might lead to an expansionist policy.
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: I must ask the noble Viscount to contain himself in patience for a little longer. The noble Lord, Lord Colyton, expressed anxiety about the defence arrangements, and he also told us that he wished he had had an opportunity to express the views which he expressed to-day in relation to Jamaica as well as to Trinidad and Tobago. The position is this: that in fact we have not entered into any specific defence agreements, but should the Caribbean territories, now our responsibility from the defence point of view, on independence ask for our assistance, we will continue to give it, as is perfectly clearly stated in the Defence White Paper. If anybody wishes
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to verify that matter, the words of paragraph 21 are:
"Should they, however, thereafter"—
that means after independence—
"seek our assistance, Britain will remain the main base for this task."
That is clearly stated in the Defence White Paper. I think I should also remind your Lordships that this question has not been allowed to go by default, because we have already sent experienced military advisers to both these territories and they are helping now to lay the foundations of an efficient local force. That is in fact in train already.
Perhaps I should also remind your Lordships of the geography. Surely we cannot deny the fact that these territories lie within the defence influence, if I may so put it, of the United States of America. But that does not for one moment mean that we forget the arrangements that we have undertaken with them—certainly not. There is a further point which I think we should bear in mind this afternoon—namely, that these countries, on independence, are perfectly entitled, should they so wish, to apply for membership of the Organisation of American States. The noble Lord, Lord Colyton, was regretting that there is no pattern of defence arrangements in the area; but, of course, the O.A.S. is such a defensive organisation, and these countries may, in the fullness of time, decide that they wish to adhere to this organisation. As noble Lords are well aware, an attack on any one member of the O.A.S. is an attack upon all. It is perfectly possible that Trinidad and Tobago, and indeed Jamaica also, might elect to join this organisation.
LORD COLYTON: My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend. Could he say whether, in view of this offer of military assistance, if it is necessary, it would not be a good idea to work out plans in advance—staff talks or something of that sort—as to how it would be given, by way of naval, air or land defence?
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: My Lords, at the time of the Independence Conference, and before it, as I think the noble Lord, Lord Colyton, is well aware, there were informal discussions, and I have every reason to believe

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that these were perfectly satisfactory. What we are discussing to-day is a Bill to bring about the independence of Trinidad and Tobago under an agreed Constitution. What is taking place is with the entire agreement of the people of Trinidad and Tobago, and there has never been any hiding from them what the true position is. I should like to make that perfectly clear. These are matters which have been discussed, and the present situation is considered satisfactory by all concerned. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Colyton, will feel reassured on this point.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLS-BOROUGH: My Lords, could I be clear on this point: that in pursuing these possible defence arrangements there will be absolutely no departure from the manner in which we have proceeded in all other previous cases, so as to try to maintain, on the widest possible basis, connections with those to whom we have properly granted independence but who may have very much the same rights to defend themselves as we have, and to whom in the past we have looked for assistance?
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: My Lords, I think I can do no more than refer the noble Viscount, with all his knowledge and experience of these things, to the Defence White Paper. I believe the situation is clear there, and I do not think he would expect me to go beyond that.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLS-BOROUGH: I will look at it again.
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: It is paragraph 21. I do not think there were any other points that were raised.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLS-BOROUGH: Paragraphs 36 and 37.
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: Yes, certainly. Paragraph 36 is the question of the appointment of the Leader of the Opposition. As I understand it, the point of this provision is really made fairly clear in this paragraph:
"There will be a Leader of the Opposition appointed by the Governor-General from the House of Representatives who, in the Governor-General's own deliberate judgment, is the leader in the House of the party which
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commands the support of the largest number of members of the House in opposition to the Government."
I understand that the reason for that particular wording is that it was thought that there might be disagreement on this point and that therefore it was necessary to have an outside view to decide who, in fact, was the leader of the largest party in opposition.
Then the noble Viscount asked me about paragraph 37. This is a case in which the deliberate judgment of the Governor-General would have to be exercised.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLS-BOROUGH: My Lords, is there any precedent for this in a newly granted colonial Constitution? I doubt whether there is. Of course, I quite understand, as, the noble Marquess says, that, having regard to the elections, things have worked out differently; but I have heard nothing but unity this afternoon in regard to the Leader of the Opposition out there. I take it he has not been selected by the Governor-General.
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: The noble Viscount has asked me a difficult question and I should very much like to be able to give him an absolutely satisfactory answer. I am not certain I am in a position to do so to-day, but I will see to it that the noble Viscount is given a proper answer. I apologise for not being in a position to do so now.
LORD OGMORE: My Lords, as this is a matter in which a number of us are interested, I wonder whether the noble Marquess could allow this information to become more widely disseminated than merely conveying it to the noble Viscount?
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: Certainly, I will take the necessary steps to see that all noble Lords receive this information. I do not think there were any other points that were raised that I have not dealt with; I think I have covered them all.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLS-BOROUGH: My Lords, perhaps the noble Marquess would be kind enough to include in his circulated information the answer to the question I put on paragraph 37.
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: I think one takes them together. I will deal with paragraphs 36 and 37 together, because they really go together. My Lords, I think that that covers everything. I apologise for not being able to answer those two particular points, and I would now ask your Lordships to give the Bill a Second Reading.
On Question, Bill read 2a and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

JAMAICA INDEPENDENCE BILL
4.5 p.m.
Order of the Day for the Third Reading read.
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a third time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 3a.—(The Marquess of Lansdowne.)
LORD OGMORE: My Lords, I beg your indulgence for a few moments in order to speak on this Bill. I regret not having been able to speak on Second Reading, for reasons which the noble Marquess kindly gave on that occasion, but I have spoken, I think, on practically every Independence Bill since 1945, so far as I can remember, and have had some connection with Jamaica—in fact, a rather interesting one. The first connection I had with Jamaica was when I became a director of the Jamaica Banana Producers' Company. This was not an office of profit, I regret to say, since there were no fees of any kind connected with it. It was a co-operative society (and still is, so far as I am aware), which was inaugurated by the small producers in an attempt—a successful attempt—to protect what they considered to he the stranglehold of a United States fruit company. This indicates the danger which faces all these small territories which are so dependent on one or two cash crops. There is always the danger of some external powerful organisation getting a stranglehold on their economy. This producers' co-operative society did great work in that respect.
Our last legislative link with Jamaica will be broken to-day—an association which has gone back almost 400 years,
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right through the colourful days of the pirate Henry Morgan, who ended up as a Knight, Lieutenant Governor and in an odour of sanctity—as perhaps is also found with other capitalist adventurers in these days. We in the United Kingdom—this is one reason why I want to speak particularly on this Bill—owe a great debt not only to Jamaica but to the other territories in the West Indies and the Caribbean. I was much distressed recently when so much attention, both in the British Press and in British public life, was paid to what we are supposed to be giving to some of these people who come over from Jamaica, without any regard for the tremendous contribution they themselves have made to our economy over hundreds of years. They have produced great wealth for us in the West Indies and Caribbean, and have given us a highly important strategic position for our Fleet. We perhaps remember in fiction Miss Swartz, the sugar heiress from St. Kitts, who was the object of great attention by the aristocracy, the nobility, the gentry and many of the mercantile families of the City at that time, because in those days colour did not matter, provided the money was good.
During the war, and since, they have helped us in our essential services; they have helped us on our buses, in our trains, with our street-cleaning, in our hospitals, our schools and elsewhere. I know from my own personal experience that the statements that were made during the passage of the Immigration Bill hurt our friends in the West Indies. That is why I feel this Bill should not go from this House without some of us saying how much we owe to the West Indies. I should like to press the Government to repay its debt. Unfortunately, wages and conditions in the West Indies, particularly in Jamaica, are so much worse than they are in this country, and there is a tendency for skilled people to come over here and, if they cannot get skilled work, to do unskilled work. So there is a constant drain of their best people, their most skilled people from Jamaica and the other West Indies, with the possible exception of Trinidad.
I think Members on all sides of the House should ask the Government to do everything they can to support the economy of Jamaica, so that she will

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be able to support her increasing population and enable it to enjoy a higher standard of living. They must do something about the excessive birth rate, and also the high illegitimacy rate which so often stultifies their efforts to achieve that higher standard of living. On independence we are providing £4¾ million for Jamaica, but £2½ million of this is a sort of notional figure; it is a bookkeeping figure. It is the value which we put on Government lands and buildings, particularly the War Office lands and buildings, which we are handing over to them. There is a balance of £1 million of the Colonial Development and Welfare Fund which was already committed. So, in fact, there will be only £1¼ million of new money available to them. When we look into it, the £4¾ million does not look quite so helpful and generous as it does at first sight. We must also remember that this is a loan; it is not, of course, a grant. It has to be repaid and serviced.
I feel that they need far more, and more varied, assistance than we are proposing to give them. It seems to me that all these countries which are in the same state as is Jamaica need markets—not only aid, grants, loans and assistance. Here I am quite certain that all developed countries, including our own—although, perhaps, our own has far less blame in this respect than many others—such as the United States, West Germany, Switzerland, Sweden, France, and many other developed countries, have an extraordinarily bad record. As time goes on the under-developed countries, or, as they like to call themselves, the developing countries, are getting comparatively poorer. They are not participants in the wealth of the new era in which technical advance is taking place. They are ever becoming poorer, and one reason is that the developed countries are not playing the game. They are constantly either competing with, or producing artificial substitutes for, the only products that these unfortunate countries can sell overseas. There are a large number of such products: rubber, sugar, sisal, tung, abaca, cotton, pyrethrum and many others.
In other words, all the talk at every City dinner, at every meeting of an international association, about aid for the
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under-developed countries is just humbug, because in fact the developed countries, the Western countries in particular, are not prepared to take the necessary action to buy the goods of these countries at a decent price, at a price which will afford them a livelihood. It makes me sick to hear all the hypocrisy whenever the under-developed territories are mentioned. Throughout the years in time to come, this will be the big problem facing us. Are we going to be sensible? Are we going to be unselfish enough to produce markets for these countries?
One of the great tests will be in the Common Market; and I would say, although I have been, and still am, a supporter of the Common Market on terms, of course—nobody would support it without terms—that it is essential that our negotiators on the Common Market should the whole time draw the attention of their fellow negotiators to the Treaty of Rome itself, and to the Preamble to the Treaty which says that the countries are:
"Anxious to strengthen the unity of their economies and to ensure their harmonious development by reducing the differences existing between the various regions and by mitigating the backwardness of the less favoured…
"Intending to confirm the solidarity which binds Europe and overseas countries, and desiring, to ensure the development of their prosperity, in accordance with the principles of the Charter of the United Nations".
Article 3 (k) says:
"the association of overseas countries and territories with the Community with a view to increasing trade and to pursuing jointly their effort towards economic and social development."
So here is a grand opportunity for the countries of Western Europe which are now in the Common Market, not to look upon it as a sort of "closed shop", but to look upon it as a chance at last to give to these people in the underdeveloped territories of the world, and in particular, of course, those who are our special care, a chance of the same sort of life, with the same sort of standard of living, as we in Western Europe enjoy.
4.14 p.m.
THK MARQUESS of LANSDOWNE: My Lords, of course a Bill of this sort would not be completely debated if the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, did not take

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part. It was for that reason that we were disappointed that he was unable to be here on Second Reading. But I am bound to say, with great respect to the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, that if I confine myself to what is contained in the Bill, as indeed I must on Third Reading, I really cannot reply to what he has said this afternoon, interesting though it may be.
On Question, Bill read 3a, and passed.

LOCAL GOVERNMENT (RECORDS) BILL
Read 3a (according to Order) with the Amendment, and passed, and returned to the Commons.
COLONIAL LOANS BILL
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.
LOCAL AUTHORITIES (HISTORIC BUILDINGS) BILL
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.
DRAINAGE RATES BILL
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.

TRANSPORT BILL
4.19 p.m.
Order of the Day for the Third Reading read.
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL AND MINISTER FOR SCIENCE VISCOUNT HAILSHAM): My Lords, I think it would be convenient for the House to indicate the course which it is hoped that we may take this afternoon. I rise formally to move the Third Reading, and in doing so I shall make one or two remarks which I hope will be universally acceptable to the House. But I think the substantial debate on the merits of the Bill will take place on the later Motion, That the Bill do now pass, and the Third Reading, apart from what I am now about to say, will deal solely with the Amendments which are on the Paper.
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My Lords, I thought that the House would not wish me to allow this opportunity to pass without saying how much the House is indebted to my noble friend Lord Mills for the part which he has played in this Bill, and also for the constant courtesy and help which he has given to the House during his period of service in the Cabinet. My Lords, he has endeared himself to all. It is not, I think, revealing a Cabinet secret to say that for some years we sat next to each other in that assembly, and a kind of intimacy inevitably develops between people with contiguous seats. Of course, his friendship and collaboration mean a very great deal more to me than this, as they have done to the House. I had known for a long time that there was an arrangement between him and my right honourable friend the Prime Minister that if and when a reconstruction of the Government took place he would seek to depart into private life, and I am sure that no one would grudge his decision in that respect. But I know that he will take with him the good will of all. His great knowledge of industry, commerce and economics, which he has placed at the service of the House; his great courtesy in dealing with arguments opposed to his own; his personal modesty—possibly the most endearing characteristic in a public man; and his complete disinterestedness could not have failed, I think, to make a profound impression on all those who worked with him.
I, of course, owe him a special debt which, as Leader, I feel bound to acknowledge, as he was for some time Deputy Leader to me. He undertook, often at short notice, and often at great personal inconvenience, every kind of burden that was laid upon him; and he undertook them with skill, generosity and understanding. I know the House will share my feelings when I say that, in him, the Cabinet have lost a most useful Member, and the House a most agreeable Member of the Front Bench, although I am sure the House will also agree with me in saying that we hope not to be deprived of his counsel, from whatever seat he chooses to sit upon, at frequent intervals in the future. My Lords, having said that, I beg to move that the Bill be read a third time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 3a.—(Viscount Hailsham.)
4.23 p.m.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLS-BOROUGH: My Lords, I think the action of the noble Viscount the Leader of the House on this Motion is to be approved, in that it gives him an opportunity to give the first explanation about at least one of the Ministers who have disappeared from the Cabinet Room. This is the first I have heard or read of the fact that there was a sort of understanding existing between the Prime Minister and our noble friend, I think we may all say, Lord Mills. Whether any of us could have possibly expected it to happen on Friday the 13th, I do not know. It seemed an extraordinary day. I was never more surprised in my life than to receive a Royal Command Invitation to a Garden Party at Buckingham Palace on Friday the 13th. I do not remember such an occasion in my fairly long public experience. Then this experience was crowned with the most thrashing attack that I ever remember in my experience upon the membership of a Cabinet during the course of any Cabinet reconstruction.
However, I am sure the noble Lord, Lord Mills, is not distressed in any way about the situation as regards himself. He has been in many respects a very great public servant. Those of us who worked in the various committees and organisations connected with war production will never forget his services in the Ministry of Production, in Committees at the Ministry of Supply and later, during the reconstruction period, as Chairman of the British Chambers of Commerce and also as Chairman of a large industrial firm which was prominent in my youth in Bristol, as well as later on in Birmingham. He proved himself as a business man of considerable experience and achievement, and when he was requested by the Government to become a Minister in this House I felt sure—I said so at the time—that he would give good service. But we had still to learn even more of the courtesy and the kindness and the consideration which, in this atmosphere of political controversy at times and friendliness at others, could hardly have been more perfect.
I should like to pay my tribute to Lord Mills for the patience he has exercised, not only during the long course already pursued by the Bill that we are
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now to discuss at its final amending stage, but also in regard to the Pipelines Bill. I think the speeches that are being made in another place just now are bound to draw attention to the importance of that measure because of the large number of Amendments that we were able to secure through the noble Lord, Lord Mills, and other Ministers who were working with him on that Bill. I have found him at all times approachable, courteous and patient, but never, of course, thinking of letting his own side down. But we were very happy to have him in the position, and we very much regret that he is no longer there. We look forward now with increasing interest to discovering who is likely to succeed to Cabinet status in this House, or whether the Leader is to be left with a reduced first eleven.
4.26 p.m.
LORD REA: My Lords, I agree that this final stage of the Transport Bill seems to be a most appropriate moment to refer, I am sure with friendship and appreciation, to the Minister who chiefly piloted it through so well, and on whom the burden of this type of particularly labourious Bill seems to have fallen on several occasions. He really has laboured like Hercules; and I should like to take the opportunity of denying the popular supposition that your Lordships' House is the rubber stamp of another place. If ever the reverse was proved to be the case, I think that the noble Lord, Lord Mills, certainly proved it.
It has for some time—indeed, of course, ever since the last General Election—been the hope of both Opposition Parties that a change of Government would take place at the very earliest opportunity. To have seen all Her Majesty's present Ministers retiring collectively to other Benches would have given a great but impersonal satisfaction. But to witness just one or two specific individuals leaving the Front Bench cannot, I think, fail to bring, in circumstances like the present, a feeling of real personal regret unconnected with any sort of Party outlook—and it does, I think, underline that pleasant but inconsistent characteristic of your Lordships' House in particular, where personal friendships cut right across political antagonisms.
My Lords, the duties which fell to the noble Lord, Lord Mills, were both

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arduous and detailed; and probably more than any other Minister, I think, he has had to face the insistencies and the frustrations of a persistent Opposition. During the five years of his membership of this Chamber we have, of course, grown to know him as a "sea-green unconvertible": Balbus himself never built such a stone wall. But we also know him as unfailingly courteous and kind, as the noble Viscount has said; always appreciative of the arguments which it was his duty to refute—or, at least, to repel. And outside the walls of this Chamber his approachability and friendliness have endeared him to us all. So we bid farewell to him as a Minister, but we are glad—very glad, indeed—that he remains with us, politically no doubt still an adversary, but personally and communally, I think, a valued friend and colleague, to whom we extend every good wish in an easier and, we hope, a more enjoyable rôle.
4.30 p.m.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My Lords, it is given to few Members of your Lordships' House to have the enjoyment of reading their political "obituary" notices in the following day's Hansard—and, knowing the noble Lord, Lord Mills, as I do, I am sure that that, at least, will appeal to him. But I venture to express one or two words because during the whole of the noble Lord's tenure of office on the Front Bench of your Lordships' House up to twelve months or so ago I was always engaged in conflict with him from the Opposition Front Bench. I should like to testify to his unfailing courtesy, the soundness of his argument, and his sympathy with the arguments, come they from any quarter of your Lordships' House. I suppose the noble Lord, Lord Mills, would hold the record for accepting Opposition Amendments when he possibly could, and that, I think, is the finest tribute I can pay him. We shall miss him, and we shall miss him even as much as the Government will miss him.
I hope that the noble Lord will decide to give us the benefit of his vast experience. We have far too few industrialists in your Lordships' House. Those who receive the great honour of a peerage, I think, always seem to look
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upon it as an honour for services rendered in the past, instead of for services which this House should expect from them in the future; and I hope the noble Lord, Lord Mills, will prove the exception. I pay my tribute to him, because I learned to respect him, and I have a very great friendship with him in this House, as I had outside. For my part, I shall miss him very much.
On Question, Bill read 3a, with the Amendments.
4.31 p.m.
LORD SHEPHERD LORD SHEPHERD moved, after Clause 6, to insert the following new clause
Station car parks
".—(1) It shall be the duty of the Railways Board to make reasonable provision for the parking of motor vehicles bolonging to railway users and others at railway stations within their control.
(2)The council of a county in England or Wales may contribute towards the cost of any provision made under the foregoing subsection in respect of railway stations within the council's area."
The noble Lord said: My Lords, I beg to move the first Amendment on the Marshalled List. This is the fifteenth day in the passage of this Bill, and much water has passed beneath the bridge. The events of the week-end have taken two noble Lords from our midst, and whilst the "big guns" have paid their tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Mills, perhaps I, as one of "the boys" (if I might use the phrase)—one of those who have taken part in the debate on this Bill—might express our own very great appreciation to the noble Lord. The noble Lord has certainly met with dignity and kindness the points which have been made. I would say to the noble Lord, Lord Rea, that if the Liberals had token a greater part in the debate they would have known that the noble Lord, Lord Mills, did not stonewall all the time. In fact, one could say that there have been improvements to the Bill. Marginal, they may be, but improvements were made; and I think it is fair to say that these improvements were largely due to the common se4nse of the nolble Lord. My Lords, I hope that we shall have the noble Lord in our midst for many years to come, and that we shall hear a good deal from him. It will be particularly interesting to discover his approach on many matters now that he has left the Front Bench.
My Lords, the Amendment for which I ask your support this afternoon is very similar to that which I moved on the Report stage—an Amendment that I introduced after consultation with the County Councils Association. The Government replied to it in a most unsatisfactory manner. In many respects they conceded the points which I made in support of the Amendment, but they requested that I withdraw it, or that the House should not accept it, largely on what I would call legalistic grounds. In the Amendment that is before your Lordships this afternoon I have tried to deal with those legalistic complaints.
My Lords, we have an existing problem in London, the congestion of our traffic, and it is the undoubted wish of the Minister to see that fewer vehicles are brought into the centre of London than at present. But it is equally true that in our main railway junction areas, such as Guildford, Reigate, Redhill—and many other towns will spring readily to mind—the very evils which we have in the City and in the West End are building up. We are getting very heavy traffic congestion, caused not only by the added numbers of vehicles on the road, but by the number of vehicles which are being left in the streets from very early in the morning to very late at night by the normal commuter. The local authorities are finding that their own car parks which they have provided, instead of being used by the local inhabitants for their normal requirements, such as during shopping and the like, are being filled solid from the very early part of the morning, with the result that those spaces are no longer available to the local community. In fact, these vehicles are being parked upon the roads, creating congestion and dangers to the pedestrian.
It may be said that it is not the duty of the Railways Board to provide car parks. But we must encourage as many people as possible to use the public train services. There are many who, bringing their cars to the railway centres, do so because there is an inadequate bus service from their homes to the station. There was a voluntary survey made some months ago in Tonbridge, and it worked out that approximately 60 per cent. of the persons who were taking their cars
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to their railway station did so because their bus services were inadequate, or because they were so badly timed that the commuters would find considerable delay, either in catching their train, or in returning home in the evening. Therefore, these people were finding it more convenient, and in some cases more necessary, to use their private cars. I think that this tendency, particularly when one considers the railway closures of branch lines, will grow and that the pressure at these railway junctions will increase. The county councils are extremely concerned at the position to-day, and at What it may well be in a few years' time.
It may well be that the railways are not under a duty to provide car parks. They certainly have been given powers—powers which are not being used to any great extent. Very few of the railway car parks are adequate for present-day needs. It is not the duty, I believe, of the county councils themselves, out of their ratepayers' money, to provide car parks for the commuters; because many of these commuters may be persons who do not live in the particular area which would have to provide the finance for these car parks.
Therefore, we shall have this conflict of interests: that the railways, certainly in the next few years, will not wish to indulge in heavy capital expenditure; and, on the other side, the county councils will be reluctant to use ratepayers' money for car parks. The purpose of my Amendment, therefore, as I described it on the Report stage, is to bring about a co-operative effort by the Railway Boards and the county councils to provide adequate car parks adjacent or as close as possible to main railway stations; that this should be a joint effort; that the Railway Boards and the county councils should share together the capital expenditure involved in the development of these car parks; and, if necessary, that the two bodies should bear some of the cost of servicing, and providing facilities in, these car parks. I do not believe that either of these bodies will provide these car parks unless there is a special drive by the Minister, and I believe that it would be right in the first instance to lay the duty upon the Railways Board in this Bill to make

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reasonable provision for car parks. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 6, insert the said new clause.—(Lord Shepherd.)
4.40 p.m.
LORD HAWKE: My Lords, commuting from the outer commuting belt, I have given some attention to this problem for a number of years, and I agree with the sentiments of the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd. Nevertheless, I think that this Amendment is too strong. Though it certainly should be their policy, I do not think it right to put this duty on the railways, because in many places it would be impossible to fulfil the duty—for instance, where land costs were quite prohibitive, or the land was built up and was already occupied in a useful way. Moreover, in some places, large private-enterprise car parks are available. In fact, when you are lucky enough to find one of them, you find that they charge less than the railways.
At the junction of Three Bridges the car park is expanding almost monthly to fit the ever-increasing number of cars parked there every day, the railway land having for years been quite inadequate for the purpose. The same applies, I believe, at Hayward's Heath, another great commuting junction. The situation at Horsham has been very bad for many years, and I believe that not long ago there was a waiting list of several years to get a place in the official station car park. An attempt is being made by the local authorities and the railways to improve conditions, but, of course, it is very late. At Crawley, the position appears to be bad, but a new station is planned in due course.
All this, combined with the fact that trains are overloaded, is naturally tending to make people motor to other stations in order to park their cars and catch the train. But they motor up the line, not down the line; and therefore the railway is going to lose revenue in fares. Even the latest commuting station in that part of Surrey, at Gat-wick Airport station, is filling up rapidly. When that station was being constructed, I asked the Government whether they would ensure that there was plenty of oar space. They assured me that there was. Well, there still is;
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but I do not know for how long it will continue to be adequate. The trouble is that, with accommodation in London being so difficult and expensive, people are scattering all over the Home Counties, and the car park at the station is an essential part of getting to work. No doubt in their own interests the railways are doing their utmost to provide facilities, but I do not think that it is right to put a duty on them. Administrative action is the thing that should be taken. I think the best hope is that Dr. Beeching, who is a businessman (I think I am right in saying that he is the first purely businessman who has run the railways of this country for a long time), will see this in the correct light and will not require too much prodding from the Minister to do his duty.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My Lords, I find myself in agreement with nearly everything the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, said, except when he asked your Lordships to accept this Amendment. Here, I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Hawke. Surely this is an administrative job. If we are to put into this Bill every administrative act which any part of the transport system should carry out in order to make the system more attractive to their customers, we are going to have a Bill 40 to 50 times larger than this one. Undoubtedly one of the outstanding needs is to attract motor-car commuters to the railways by providing adequate car parks. I am a commuter and have to start for my railway station half-an-hour before train time, not to catch the train, but to get a place in the car park. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Hawke, that if the new Beeching régime has not the business acumen to see this, it is as qualified for the position as the last régime was. I would ask the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, not to press this Amendment, but I think that it should be the duty of Parliament to watch this matter carefully and see that action is taken.
4.47 p.m.
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, in thinking about this Amendment and the problem it involved, it occurred to me that it might be useful to the House if I were to give some factual information about what is being done. Perhaps this would be particularly useful, in view of the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord

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Shepherd, about inactivity. I am not complaining about them. At the moment I should like merely to state the facts without comment.
London Transport now provide car parks at 50 of their stations. In 1954, they had just over 1,400 places for motor cars, but last year the figure had gone up to just over 3,200. They have been increasing capacity during the present year, and by mid-August there will be spaces for nearly 3,400 cars at London Transport stations. They have already approved extensions to provide another 590 spaces and have under consideration plans for a further 1,080. The Southern Region of British Railways have 224 stations within 20 miles of London, of which 121 have car parks. In 1961, their capacity was 4,600 cars, having gone up by 1,200 since 1959. Since then, two new car parks have been provided. Of those 121 car parks, only 30 are at present used to capacity. The Western Region have 21 stations within 20 miles of London, of which eleven have car parks. These car parks increased their capacity from 520, in 1959, to 650, in 1961. Eight of them are fully used. The Midlands Region have 45 stations within 20 miles of London, of which 21 have car parks. The capacity of these increased from 960 to just over 1,000 in 1961. Only eight are fully used. Similar figures apply to the Eastern Region, but I think I have said sufficient to give an indication that at least London Transport and British Railways have not been entirely inactive in this matter, and that there have been improvements.
The fact that I have referred to numbers of car parks that are not fully used must be regarded with a certain moderation when drawing conclusions, because I am well aware, and I admit, that in other centres, such as the places mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, there is definitely a problem. But I do not want it to be thought, as it seemed to be, that we are quite unaware of what are the problems and how they relate to traffic. I do not disagree, any more than did the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, with the principle of the case put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd. I do not complain in the least that he has put it forward; I think he was right to do so. My point is that the Amendment which
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the noble Lord has put down does not give the Railways Board any powers that they do not already possess. I might point out that the other three statutory Boards also have the same powers, which are quite adequate, under Clause 14 of the Bill as now drafted.
What causes me difficulty, as was pointed out by the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, and my noble friend Lord Hawke, is not what the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, wants to do, but his method of doing it—in fact, the form of his Amendment. I think that to place an express duty, in what we hope is shortly to become an Act of Parliament, on the Railways Board to provide car parks in the terms of the Amendment, without any reference to what may be the cost of the car parks, the revenue they may bring in and their possible profitability might well involve the Railways Board in very heavy expenditure, particularly in the centres of large cities, such as my noble friend Lord Hawke mentioned, where land is very expensive and might have to be acquired at great cost, perhaps by compulsion.
Moreover, the clause, as it would be drafted, does not leave the Railways Board to decide what is reasonable in the circumstances; and it is quite possible that it might turn out to be a matter to be taken before the courts to decide in a particular case if there was dissatisfaction as to whether the Railways Board were or were not discharging their duty under the clause. I am sure that that is not the kind of complication which the noble Lord would wish to follow from his Amendment. I wonder whether it is right to place an express statutory duty on the Railways Board to provide car parks when there is no similar duty on local authorities. They have powers, but no duty is put on them; and they, after all, are the road traffic authorities, who should be concerned with such matters. Because there may be many occasions when there is a pressing need for a car park in the vicinity of the railway station, and yet it might be inappropriate to place on the Railways Board a specific duty to meet that need, which may arise to a considerable degree from the general traffic conditions, which are not all engendered by the presence of the railways. Further, there is no provision in the clause to place on any of

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the other three statutory Boards a similar duty to provide car parks. I think that, certainly as regards the London Board, and, to some extent, the Docks Board, the same kind of argument could be advanced in support of their having some duty in this respect.
I turn now for a moment to the position of local authorities. At the moment, local authorities have full powers to provide car parks under Section 81 of the Road Traffic Act and under the Road Traffic and Roads Improvement Act. They also have powers, under Section 13 of the Road Traffic Act and under the Road Traffic and Roads Improvement Act, to arrange with other persons for the provision of car parks on such terms as they think fit. So that, to the extent of local authorities, other than county councils, the point in the second part of the noble Lord's Amendment is more than half met, because there already exists this possibility of the local authority and the Railways Board getting together to share the provision of a car park. This does not apply, as such, to county councils. These powers for local authorities stem from the Road Traffic Act and the Road Traffic and Roads Improvement Act. County councils, for various reasons I need not go into, are not included, because it has always been thought appropriate for the next tier of council below county council to be the authority in this respect.
If there is to be a power for county councils to join in, then I do not think this is the way to do it. I must say (although I am bound to admit that it is a slightly technical argument), that a new power would be created. In practice, I think I am right in saying that under Section 56 of the Local Government Act county councils in England and Wales have a general power to contribute to the expenditure of a council of a county district in their county for whatever it is they are doing. Therefore, I suppose it can be argued that it would not be impossible for a county council to contribute in this way, although rather by the back door. I think that this perhaps goes a little further to meet the second half of the noble Lord's point.
I do not complain that the noble Lord rather complained at my advancing legalistic arguments, because I think
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that, where an Amendment has an effect such as this Amendment has, it is my clear duty to point it out to your Lordships, however legalistic it may seem in relation to the importance of the problem that we are considering and trying to do something about. This is a point which has come up at rather a late stage in the Bill. I do not complain of that either. I said that I thought the noble Lord was right to raise it, and I still think that, because it is of importance. I am in a slight difficulty to know exactly how to help the noble Lord, as I should like to do, because at this stage of the Bill there is little by way of procedure that is open to me.
The noble Lord said that he thought it desirable that special attention should be paid to this matter by the Minister in particular, and by Parliament. I should like to give him very seriously and firmly an undertaking that when my right honourable friend the Minister, who is very conscious of the strength of the point the noble Lord has raised, comes to discuss the functions and what is to be done under Clause 14, not only by the Railways Board but by the other Boards as well, which he will have to do in due course, he will make a very strong point of bringing home to them the desirability and the reasons for providing car parks in the circumstances the noble Lord described, and he will use—I suppose "his best endeavours" would be the proper phrase, to see that this problem, if not entirely cured, is at least minimised as much as it may be and as quickly as possible. I hope the noble Lord, in particular, and your Lordships, will accept that in the serious manner in which I am putting it forward, and that the noble Lord will not wish to press his Amendment after I have given that undertaking.
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, may I thank the noble Lord for his reply? I should be less than generous if I did not respond to his last few words and the assurances that he gave. Therefore, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 8 [London Board's road services outside London]:
LORD CHESHAM LORD CHESHAM moved, after subsection (5), to insert:
"(6) Any order under the last foregoing subsection shall be made not later than the vesting date."
The noble Lord said: My Lords, your Lordships will perhaps recall that on Report I gave an undertaking to my noble friend Lord Hawke that I would consider an Amendment in relation to the statutory instrument which the Minister has to make to certify that certain routes were operated by London Transport at a certain time, in order that the powers they assume on vesting day could continue to operate without dislocation to those services. As I recollect, my noble friend was worried that an order might be made, and subsequently another order, and possibly another one if one could think of anything to put in it. I pointed out at the time that these orders were statements of fact and that one was unlikely to discover anything new, but at the same time it seemed reasonable to accede to my noble friend's request that any order made under this provision should be made not later than the vesting date.
That does not entirely meet my noble friend's point, in that it does not entirely preclude there being two orders and not one. But the point of leaving it longer than three months, as he asked, was to enable adequate consultations to take place with the various interests affected to make sure that the order was as near as possible right to start with. I think my Amendment will meet his point that there can be no later orders after the period in which they should appear. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 9, line 20, at end insert the said new subsection.—(Lord Chesham.)
LORD HAWKE: My Lords, I am very grateful to my noble friend for having met me in this way. I think it is most desirable and important that the London Transport Executive routes, in so far as they go outside their own boundary, should be laid down; and it is desirable that they should be laid down once and for all. I have no doubt that there will be consultations between the interested parties and that the list, as finally promulgated by statutory order, will be the correct one. I am grateful to my noble friend.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
5.5 p.m.
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, as I come now to the stage where I move that this Bill do mow pass, I feel your Lordships will wholeheartedly agree that at least I was right when I began to move the Second Reading with words to the effect that this was a long and complex Bill. I think the OFFICIAL REPORT of your Lordships' consideration of the Bill through its various stages alone proves that. But what I think is more important is that it shows the measure of the care and attention your Lordships have given the Bill. If your Lordships read back through the OFFICIAL REPORT, it also shows the wide range of knowledge and experience which the House was able to bring to bear, as is so often the case with your Lordships' House.
Another measure of the consideration your Lordships have given the Bill must surely be that at the moment we are proposing to send it to another place with 170 Amendments. It is perfectly true that 83 of those are the famous ones which had to do with the name of the Waterways Board, but that leaves, as I calculate it, 87 others—I had better say E. & O.E. because I think it must be 88 with the Amendment we have just passed. While no doubt a number of those are minor or drafting Amendments, there were others, on important things like coastal shipping, the police, the development of land, the Transport Users' Consultative Committees, the National Transport Advisory Council, the responsibility of the Holding Company for consultation, and the application of the Bill to Northern Ireland—matters of some importance. In spite of this, I know, because they have voiced complaints about it, that one or two noble Lords felt aggrieved that the Government did not accept a higher proportion of Amendments. As I said at one moment, the Government's duty is to consider their attitude to any Amendment on its merits, and to resist it or otherwise accordingly.
However that may be, there is one thing I should like to say with the greatest sincerity. I should like to pay my humble tribute, if I may, to noble Lords behind me and noble Lords opposite for the most serious and responsible way in which they have set about their

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contributions to getting the Bill right, and the immense amount of time and trouble they have devoted to the task. The fact that there are deep differences of opinion between us, and a fundamentally different mode of approach, does not in the least detract from what I say as regards noble Lords opposite. They clearly have put a great deal of work and energy into this, and I do not think your Lordships generally, and his colleagues an particular, will mind if I say how much we must admire the efforts of the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, on this Bill. I may not often have agreed with his point of view, but I should like to be the first to recognise how mightily he must have wrought on this Bill.
I should also like to express my personal thanks to my noble and learned Leader, and my noble and learned friend, whose congenial presence, as well as his wise guidance, we shall miss from the Woolsack. Also, I should like to thank my noble friend Lord Dundee for his help and, by no means least, my noble friend Lord Mills. It has been much better said, but perhaps I, too, in thanking him for what he has done on this Bill, might accord to him my own gratitude for having had the proud privilege of working in the shadow of his kindliness and his ability and wisdom, not only in the long course of this Bill but on other Bills as well.
The Government have been fortified and encouraged during our debates by the fact that there have been no convincing arguments against the basic purposes of the Bill providing for the British Transport Commission's activities to be reorganised, financially reconstructed, and put on a basis of operation suited to present-day conditions. As I have said, there are differences of opinion on this, and some of them are rooted in differences of political approach. But the Government are convinced that the transport problem As too serious, that transport services are too important to the country, for them to be tackled in any other way than by making a new approach based on the practical needs of the situation. My Lords, I do not underrate, in any way, the difficulties that are ahead. The railways lie, we know, at the heart of them, and I think that the tasks that will fall on the new Boards
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and the Holding Company will be heavy ones. Whatever may be the view of how these tasks should be carried out, I am sure your Lordships will wish to see that the new undertakings get every encouragement and will wish them success in their vitally important endeavours. I beg to move that this Bill do now pass.
Moved, That the Bill do now pass.—(Lord Chesham.)
5.11 p.m.
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, I would express my grateful thanks to the noble Lord, Lord Chesham, for the tribute he paid to my noble friend Lord Shepherd. As he truly said, my noble friend has worked hard and effectively at the head of an Opposition team which he has seen to it has been a happy one. I feel that the same can be said of the Government team, which has also worked so hard and devotedly on this Bill. I would again say what it was possible to say at an earlier stage of the Bill, that we are grateful to noble Lords on the Government Front Bench and to the noble and learned Earl—as I suppose I must now say—who until recently sat on the Woolsack. They, too, have helped to make our task a happy one, although I will not say a light, and certainly not a short, one. It has all been in what I regard as the best traditions of your Lordships' House and we are very grateful to them for their consideration and care, and for the fact that our arguments have been listened to. I will not say they were answered, but they were certainly dealt with.
I feel that I must say a few personal words of regret at the fact that the noble Lord, Lord Mills, is not here to-day to take part in this debate and at the reason for that. We have heard words eloquently said by the noble Viscount the Leader of the House, my own noble Leader and the noble Leader of the Liberal Party. Your Lordships will not want an addition from me, but I would say that when they mentioned his kindness, his courtesy, and his wisdom, they were no mere formal words. Any noble Lord who had anything to do in this House with the noble Lord, Lord Mills, will agree that they were a mere statement of fact. Certainly I very much regret that he is not with us. I can understand how much the noble and learned

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Viscount, Lord Hailsham, regrets that he will no longer be sitting immediately next to him in the Cabinet as he has done for so many years. I can only express my sincere hope that they will be sitting side by side before very long on the Front Opposition Bench.
Although what I have said is very sincere, and we shall not vote against the Motion now before the House, it does not mean that we are not strongly apposed to a great deal that is in this Bill. Indeed, we feel now that the Government have no mandate for it. The recent shattering by-election results show that the Government have lost the confidence of the country. The recent near decimation of the Cabinet shows that the Government have lost confidence in themselves. We feel that the contents of a parcel cannot be changed by altering the labels and neither can the basic faults of this Bill. The noble Lord, Lord Chesham, said that the major differences between us were on the basis of a different political approach. Indeed we have called it differences of ideology, and I think that so far as transport is concerned the ideology that has been put forward by the Government is in fact opposed by the people who are mainly affected and, indeed, so far as my experience goes, by every organisation interested in an efficient and progressive transport service for passengers and freight. I believe that When this Bill comes into operation and its implications are fully understood the people will reject it.
I will make it perfectly clear that we on this side of the House accept that the railway service must be adapted and perhaps to some extent streamlined to meat present needs, but it is quite obvious that for many years the railways must be the backbone of our transport system. The British Railways freight map shows that 95 per cent. of goods traffic is carried by 50 per cent. of the railway network. I do not doubt that when the passenger map is published there will be a similar result. If profitability is to be the sole, or even the overriding, criterion, then there must inevitably be wholesale rail closures, particularly in places like Scotland, Wales, East Anglia and South and South-West England. But I submit—and this is the point of my remarks—that before these closures come into
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effect there are certain basic questions which must be asked and answered.
The first is: which of these lines which it is proposed to close would be economic if the railways were subsidised to the same extent as road users are subsidised? This is not an ideological point. The current edition of Crossbow, which I believe is the organ of the Bow Group of Conservatives, in its leading article, says:
"Market conditions … (which face British Railways and determine what Dr. Beeching decides is an economic policy) … are themselves distorted by the quite unrealistic pricing system on the roads. If road-users had to pay real costs … quite different conditions, pointing to quite different pricing, closure and investment decisions might confront The Doctor. If one part of the system is run according to rigid economic disciplines while the rest is run according to nothing in particular, the result could be to make the chaos worse than at present—if that is possible."
So I am supported in my first point by apparently informed Conservative opinion.
The second point which I submit has to be answered is this. Is there an untapped demand for the line? Has everything been done by publicity and salesmanship to attract passengers and goods traffic? Thirdly, can some lines be run profitably on a seasonal basis with or without the help of local subsidies from local authorities, educational authorities, race courses or holiday camps? I think the Minister should explore all these ideas thoroughly before we allow a great capital asset to be destroyed and the traffic diverted to the already over-burdened and dangerous road systems. Even when those three, and perhaps other, questions have been answered there will still, I am afraid, be many justifiable closures.
About these there are a fresh number of questions that have to be asked. The first and most important is: is alternative public transport available, not only for passengers but for goods? During most of our discussions we have been speaking about alternative available transport for passengers and have not said much about the position for the rural areas, of their parcels and freight traffic. What is going to happen when some of these communities are 50 miles from the nearest station? What is going to happen to the parcels traffic? How is that to get there?

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This is not an idle thought. They are questions that will have to be answered. For example, in March last year the Minister of Housing and Local Government formed a mid-Wales Committee to consider ways in which the economy of mid-Wales might be developed and strengthened. It will be a curious way of developing and strengthening the economy if the Government make a start by withdrawing "he railway facilities from that area. In such areas no sort of service will be economic. Therefore we must have an assurance from the Government—I hope the noble Lord will give it—that they will see that subsidised services are provided; otherwise areas like that will become almost completely depopulated.
I should like to know whether an estimate has been made, or, if not, is going to be made, of the public costs of the roads which will be needed to carry the extra traffic. I think if this were done the Government would have to look again at the criteria used to decide which railway services were uneconomic. The fact is you cannot have a sane and efficient national transport system when every part of it competes blindly for all forms of traffic. You cannot determine whether or not a railway track should be torn up just by asking if it makes a profit or not, because quite apart from commercial principles railways provide in many cases an indispensable social service. Other countries who have closed down railways have found that is true. They are having to rebuild them again at great cost because they cannot provide enough roads to handle the traffic. All these questions should have been asked and answered before we were asked to consider a Transport Bill.
This Bill will soon be an Act of Parliament, but the questions I have asked will remain and will have to be answered, because if they are not answered before major changes are permitted the country, in my view, will suffer a major economic and social disaster. We must have a transport system which, in addition to what is economically necessary, provides services which are socially indispensable. I am afraid that with their past views, which are unlikely to change, it is too much to hope that such a service will come from the pre-
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sent Government. Fortunately, the time is running out, and I think it will not be long before we have a chance to get on with the job.
5.25 p.m.
LORD HAWKE: My Lords, the main object of this Bill has been to cut down these railway losses, and the simplest way to approach it, of course, would be to shut down the railway system. But we must see that Dr. Beeching does not adopt that easy solution, because, though it is not nearly so easy to increase efficiency, it must be done. One cannot really say that the railways are efficient until they can guarantee a time of arrival for goods traffic, coupled, I hope, with a penalty clause for any consignments which do not arrive on time. To my mind, that is far more important to the commercial community than speed, and it has been reflected more than once in letters to the Press. Even for passengers I am not sure that absolute regularity in time-keeping is not more important than the last extremes of speed. I think that Her Majesty's Government should be aware that there is a growing feeling in the country that if only we could manage to put more traffic on to rail and off the roads it would be a much pleasanter land to live in. But until the railways are efficient we cannot expect that solution to be fulfilled.
The railway losses have brought home to the general public with a shock how vast is the proliferation of privately owned transport and, with it, the inevitable losses to the least adaptable and least flexible of public transport—that is, the railways. While we are putting our house in order we have not only to tackle the railway losses but, in the process, to get more rationalisation and streamlining of public transport as a whole. The Conservative philosophy believes that competition makes for the efficiency of those competing. For that reason we have not done much in the past to discourage competition in the field of public passenger transport. We have left it to the traffic commissioners, but of course they must have been influenced by the idea of reasonable competition. To-day, with so much private transport available, it is a luxury to have public road, public rail and public air transport all operating on the same

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routes. Ever-increasing competition is created by private transport that is quite sufficient to keep any form of public transport on its toes, and it may well be that the traffic commissioners through their charter, Section 72 of the Road Traffic Act, 1930, may require to have some new interpretation placed on their duties.
Public transport is competing in a shrinking market. Some of us believe that one of the most important things is to got more co-ordination between road and rail over passenger transport. Our Amendment to try to secure that the British Transport Commission bus shares were inherited by the Railways Board was designed to this end. We felt that by giving the railways the whole financial stoke in a substantial part of the bus operators in the country, and a partial stake in a large portion of the rest, there would be much more chance of co-ordination. But the Minister did not agree. However, that is over and done with.
The Minister thinks he has learned that the railways could never have sufficient influence over bus operators to induce them to look after rail interests, because he thinks that the British Transport Commission's representatives on the bus boards in the past may not have done so efficiently. This argument may or may not have been valid in the past, but I believe that for the future it is greatly outweighed by the great advantages of having rail and bus men in from the beginning on the problem of the redeployment of passenger transport which will have to take place in the future. And, quite frankly, under the Minister's scheme, as the Bill stands I do not think this can take place very easily. The proposals for closure of the rail services will be put up unilaterally by the railways. They will not have the preliminary study of what is to take their place and at what cost. It may be found that some services which Dr. Beeching proposes to give up could be made cheaper to run under the Light Railways Act than any bus substitute that could be run. Equally, other services which Dr. Beeching has not proposed to close down, because they break even or run at a little loss, could, quite possibly be replaced at a substantial profit by a bus service.
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The railways are unlikely to take the initiative in change unless they are likely to benefit financially, either by the elimination of losses or by sharing in or taking wholly the profits. Contrariwise, I should have thought that an immediate examination should be made of long-distance bus services which compete most directly with the rail. In passing, I should say that though in debate in the course of this Bill the London-Birmingham services were mentioned, they being a joint Commission and B.E.T. company, yet there are other buses competing with rail for longer distance traffic—for instance, London to Scotland and the Royal Blues to Cornwall, which I understand are carried out by wholly-owned subsidiaries of the British Transport Commission. These long distance services are a relic of the days When we thought we could afford to run more than one form of public transport on the same route.
The Minister has rejected the structure in the Bill under which we believe coordination could be made easily and naturally. But man is not a slave to his tables of organisation, and I hope the Minister will use all his powers to promote co-operation and co-ordination between buses and rail. For instance, in the regional study of passenger transport needs he should encourage the bus companies, whether wholly owned or partially owned by the Holding Company, to be invited in at an early stage. After all, they are best judges of what services the buses can offer, and at what cost. The burden is going to be put on them to do a lot of substituting for rail services, and advanced planning is required. Buses do not grow on gooseberry bushes. Drivers cannot be picked up every day at the Labour Exchange. Where there is a shortage of drivers, it may not in fact be possible to produce the services. Some of these services may have to have specially designed vehicles. For instance, in this country there do not yet appear to be vehicles with a proper luggage compartment in the interior of the bus which can take the place of that on the railway train.
There may be some railway redundancy in places. Will there be any joint scheme of training so that those who are displaced may be trained in road passenger work, either on the road itself or on the maintenance side? In support of

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this general plea the figures are most instructive. Comparing 1958 with the end of last year, private cars on the road have gone up from 4½ million to 6 million; motor cycles from 1½ million to nearly 2 million. The index of vehicle miles for cars indicates an increase of 46 per cent.; scooters, 104 per cent.; mopeds, 37 per cent.; motor cycles are a little down, and buses and coaches are down 8 per cent. In passenger journeys between 1958 and 1961 the railways are down 5 per cent. and buses and coaches down 2 per cent. Air passenger miles, domestic, have nearly doubled. Is it not obvious that road and rail passenger services must get together in face of growing competition from private vehicles and air transport? Dr. Beeching comes from a stable where cooperation between producers is not unknown. I hope that the spirit of cooperation and rationalisation will ultimately prevail. It seems to me that that is the only hope for rural Britain to have any public passenger services at all in the years ahead.
5.35 p.m.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My Lords, before I address myself to the Bill, may I, as one who for all but one of these last sixteen years has been engaged either from the Government Front Bench or the Opposition Front Bench in every scrap of transport legislation with which your Lordships have had to deal, pay my tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Chesham, for what he has done to steer this most complicated Bill through your Lordships' House? If he will permit me to say so, I think he has always been good, but as time goes on he excels himself, and I think that this time his contribution was a Parliamentary performance of the highest order. May I also echo his words and pay a tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd? This, I think, has been his first major job, and if he will permit me to say so with respect, I think he acquitted himself in a masterly fashion. I hope he will carry on in this way, because he showed all the adroitness of opposition without being either bad-tempered or fractious.
Is it not ironic, that we have been promised for the last ten years by the Chairman of the British Transport Com-
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mission, and had that promise endorsed every year for ten years by the Government, that 1962 was to be the year in which the British Transport Commission was going to show a profit? This was the year! Yet here we are, in that year moving that this Bill be now passed, when the total deficit has amounted to £1,175 million—that is the total amount that the taxpayer has lost. In the words of the noble Lord, Lord Chesham, on current account it is running at a deficit of £150 million.
We are now painfully learning the stark truth. The latest bulletin from the Commission, the one that has been referred to, now tells us quite bluntly, in simple language, that the reason for all this is that 95 per cent. of the railway freight of this country is carried on 50 per cent. of the lines; and when the analysis of passenger traffic comes out it will not be very much different. Criticise the present Minister as much as you wish, but you can never criticise his courage in telling the truth. Then there is Dr. Beeching. How differently the stark economics of the position have been put to us, as opposed to the Cloud Cuckoo-land economics that emanated in the past and which were the cause of the colossal loss which the British taxpayer has had to bear!
This is a complicated Bill, and I sometimes think—having taken no part in it, because, after all, new voices and fresh minds, even in opposition, are welcome—that the Opposition have tried to make the Bill do too much. At its best it cannot solve the problems; it can only set up a structure within which, if there is sufficient ability, they can be solved. My Lords, I think that the problems will come, and have to come, and I understand from the latest bulletin issued by the Chairman, Dr. Beeching, that the first edition of the railways' plan will be ready by the end of the year.
The questions have been asked, "What are we going to do if we shut down all these railway lines?", and "What will happen if the only yardstick is profitability?" My Lords, it is not so much a question of what will happen, but of what has happened. The railways' traffic is on the road now. What are you going to do? The point in this Bill about which I am so apprehensive is, what alternative is going to be offered in our rural areas to provide the most

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economic form of transport?—I care not whether it is road or rail. It may not be profitable. That question has been raised continually right the way through this Bill, and it has not yet been answered. I do not blame the Government for not answering it. I think it will have to be answered when the whole transport plan is put before the country.
I hope the noble Lord, Lord Lindgren, will not mind my saying that one of the greatest problems which we have to face is a change of heart by the unions connected with railways. You cannot run railways just for the sake of providing employment. You might just as well go and dig holes in the seashore, let the tide fill them up, and then start the process all over again the next day. As a country we face a terrific problem. There is great redundancy on our railways, and much new thinking must be applied to the problem. We cannot just say that so many per cent. of railway employees are redundant, without making adequate provision for their future employment. If we want to have first-class manpower on the railways, we must pay higher wages. One of the troubles with British Railways is that over the last ten years it has never recruited any brains in the mid-levels. Why? Because the railways have never met the wages and salaries of other industry and tirades. I can quite understand the railways saying," We cannot afford these increases." Of course they cannot, until they have solved the question of redundancy. These are some of the problems which we shall have to face. I do not think it is the job of the British Transport Commission to face them, because, as they have said many a time, their job is to make the railways pay. The social and political implications are for the Government, and I hope that the Government will face them.
My Lords, this cannot be done as a clean-cut job. As I think was said by the noble Lord, Lord Hawke, just now, because a railway line does not pay, or because it does not pay even to put on alternative transport, that does not mean that large areas of the country have to be left without transport. The noble Lord touched on a very vulnerable point. It is no good anybody saying that it is not possible to run a rural bus service,
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when they put on a double-decker bus where a very small bus could cope with the traffic adequately. The whole outlook of providing transport in the rural areas has to undergo a lot of thinking, and I hope that the Ministry of Transport will not leave it entirely to the Commission to do. I have great faith in the present Minister in grappling with this problem, and I wish him success.
My Lords, this, I think, will be but the forerunner of many Bills, much legislation and great debate. This has not solved one of the problems of our transport system. All it has done is to set up a machine Which is the best the arguments in your Lordships' House and in the other place can devise. It is for us to see that it now works to the general and economic good of the country.
5.45 p.m.
LORD LINDGREN: My Lords, in making the last contribution from these Benches on this Bill, may I add my congratulations to the noble Lord, Lord Chesham, and the noble Earl, Lord Dundee, on their handling of the Bill during its course through this House? May I, too, in a few words but no less sincerely, add my tribute to the unfailing courtesy and assistance we received from the noble Lord, Lord Mills, and the noble and learned Viscount, the former Lord Chancellor?
Those are congratulations on the handling of the Bill. But, as the noble Lord, Lord Chesham, anticipated, there are no congratulations in the final stages of this Bill on the matter of policy. As was said by the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, this Bill makes no contribution whatever to a solution of the transport problems which face this country. It is a Bill that will facilitate the dismantling of the railway system, but the Government have yet to appreciate (and I have seen no signs of this during the course of this Bill through this House; or in Government speeches in another place) that the railways of this country, like those in every country in the world, cannot on their own be a viable industry. On the basis of the Government's economics as applied in this Bill, not only would the railways in rural areas be dismantled, but there would be no postal service, no telephones, no electricity, no water, in the rural areas. Every one of those ser-

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vices in the rural areas of this country is not viable. In regard to the essential services which are necessary to those members of the community who live in the sparsely populated areas, the cost is borne by the rest of the community in the charges they pay for the service generally. The Government have at some time or other to face the problem of whether they regard transport as a service, or whether they are going to put it on a normal industrial basis. If it is to foe put on a normal industrial basis, it can only be to the disadvantage of the community as a whole.
My Lords, I must repeat this again in the final stages of this Bill. Transport is not a question of railways for railwaymen, or of buses for busmen, as the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, mildly suggested. Transport is a service to the community; and the only way to look at it is as a form of transport by the vehicle which is most suited to the journey and to the traffic to be carried. It is not a question of a war between road and rail, between rail and air, or between shipping and air. Using the correct vehicle for the traffic and the journey is the only way in which the problem can be tackled, so far as surface transport is concerned. Unless the transport system is integrated, and the costs of all forms are taken together, as was provided for in the 1947 Act, the industry as a whole will never be viable. But taking the industry as a whole there is every reason to believe that it could be viable.
Again, in the closing stages of this Bill I rather welcome the partial conversion of the noble Lord, Lord Hawke. We are getting somewhere when, from those Benches, he rises to plead that road and rail should get together, and for the integration of our passenger services, road and rail. I am sorry, my Lords, I must apologise: I do not think the noble Lord said "integration"; he said "co-ordination". But at least it is a good word coming from him.
I think that one ought to call attention to the completely muddled thinking that there has been on the part of this Government. In their Transport Act, 1953, they started destroying the integrated transport system established by the 1947 Act. Since 1953 there have been no fewer than 22 Acts of Parliament on
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transport. Some of these, it is true, have been the British Transport Commission's Bills to give effect to the various organisations that have had to take place arising from the 1953 Act. We have had ten White Papers and two Special Reports, all trying to remedy the damage that was initially started by the 1953 Act. Those of us who have been associated with the railways have been centralised, regionalised, reorganised, disorganised; and we have also suffered over that period the "Stop and go" on modernisation.
Now those associated with the railways of this country have to face a further period of upheaval. From these Benches I should like to express sympathy with the officers and staff of the railways of this country, who for the lifetime of this Government have been suffering frustration, arising from the fact that their industry has been used for playing politics. Had the officers of British Railways been allowed to get on with their job of modernising the railways, and to spend on getting traffic the time and energy which they have had to spend on preparing schemes of reorganisation for successive Ministers of Transport, answering questionnaires daily and preparing data daily for those same Ministers, then perhaps the railways would have been in a little better state than they are at the present time.
My Lords, we speed this Bill on its way; but, as the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, said, this is not by a long way the last Transport Bill we shall have, because, unless the Government learn their lesson, so far as transport is concerned, we shall have not only another Bill to try to remedy the ills created by this Bill but a succession of Bills, as we have had over the past ten years. I conclude by again congratulating on a personal basis those on the Government Benches who have been associated with the progress of the Bill. Seeing the last of this Bill, no doubt they will be glad of the relief that comes with it, but from our side we are sad, because, as I have said, it makes no contribution to solving the problems which face this country of ours.
5.56 p.m.
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, for more than one

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thing that he said this afternoon. First of all, I am very grateful for what he said to me personally. As I understand, the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, he does not propose to speak in this debate. Therefore, perhaps he will not mind if I join him with me in thanking the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, for a sentiment with which I heartily concur, as your Lordships know, because I have said so. I was very glad, too, that the noble Lord referred to the "stark truth" and "facing reality", because that is entirely what my mind is running on this afternoon; and, in fact, it is the way the Government's mind (if one can use that particular phrase) has been running on the Bill altogether. The noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, further acknowledged that in his very welcome references to my right honourable friend and to Dr. Beeching.
The noble Lord, Lord Stonham, said that noble Lords on the Benches opposite were strongly opposed to the Bill. I had noticed that in the course of our proceedings, and I am not going to waver even as briefly, succinctly and (may I say?) moderately as did the noble Lord, Lord Lindgren. I am not going to address myself to any of the political differences that may exist, because we have been over it before in one way and another, time and again. The noble Lord, Lord Stonham, said that the Government had lost confidence. He may, for all I know, have been generalising on a political basis and having a bit of fun; but so far as this Bill and what we are talking about is concerned, the Government have certainly not lost confidence in the Bill—not in the methods proposed and put forward under the Bill, and not in the new structure with which, as has been repeatedly said, it is the idea of the Bill to provide the new Boards, on which they can build soundly for the future. I think confidence would be lost if nothing were done to stop the present £150 million a year loss, a loss which on the present trends would tend to be a rising one.
The noble Lord, Lord Lindgren, said that in certain circumstances no service, particularly in the rural areas, could be viable. I shall be coming back to this point. That may well be so, though I cannot necessarily see why, because such services cannot be viable, they need, in every case, without investigation, to be
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accepted as being as expensive as they are, and contributing to that large and entirely unacceptable loss. That is where confidence would be lost—if the Government were not to take action, and proper action, to stop it.
The noble Lord, Lord Stonham, asked a number of questions which he said would have to be answered in the future, and one of those was whether any thought had been given to the cost of new roads for extra traffic. My Lords, there cannot be an answer to that particular question at this present moment, because unless and until it is known what services are to be retained, what services are not, and what the pattern of the future and the general picture is going to be, it cannot be precisely said what the necessary, corresponding road pattern will be. But I will tell your Lordships this: that we do realise quite clearly that, in those cases where it is ultimately discovered that road transport can serve the public better than the rail transport, there will have to be consequential adjustments of the roads in many cases. In some cases, probably, the existing roads will be found adequate for the loads they have to carry; in others, particularly in urban areas, they may be found inadequate. I can assure your Lordships that this is one point which has been very far from overlooked, and which is being kept very much in the forefront of considerations for future planning.
The questions the noble Lord said will have to be answered will, of course, be answered—and they will be answered, in fact, in the course of the situation in which we are now finding ourselves. Really, to expect answers to those questions to be provided to-day (not necessarily in your Lordships' House by me; but to be provided at this time) is putting the cart firmly before the horse, because they are questions which can be answered only in the light of having full and accurate information.
Just exactly what is the position, and what is going on at the moment? I should like briefly to make sure that your Lordships know what it is. It falls into four stages. Stage one, in which we are at present engaged, is the traffic studies that Dr. Beeching is at present carrying on, which relate not only to the services on the lines but to the traffic which can best be carried,

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and how; and for those to be carried on to the stage of their analysis and completion—because they are what I might call the further tools of management that are necessary. Then, at the same time, stage two, which can to a certain extent overlap, is the dissemination of information to the public. The map which was published last Friday, showing the freight trains and carryings on the railways, is typical of that. I do not think it can be expected that the public at large will support the reorganisation that is necessary unless it knows in unequivocal terms what the position is and what is going on.
Stage three will come when all the traffic studies and the information to be obtained from them is finally collected and sorted. When that has been done the Transport Commission will place before the Government its broad proposals about the size, shape and pattern of the future railways system. At stage three there will be put forward what the situation demands in the opinion and considered view of those in the commercial position of having to run the railways.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My Lords, could the noble Lord (he is so interesting on this point) give us some idea of a timetable? Is that possible?
LORD CHESHAM: I think that I can, in rough terms. I certainly should expect the studies to be completed and well into analysis stage by or before the end of this year Then (though I cannot put any time on this) it will obviously be desirable that the conclusions and suggestions should be put before the Government as quickly as possible after that, because this problem is too urgent to permit of any "hanging about", so to speak. Then stage four, my Lords, will be for the Government to reach their own conclusions and to take into consideration many of the points to which your Lordships have been drawing attention.
A great deal has been said in the course of the discussions on the Bill about the dangers to the individual and to the public. I am not again going
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over all the various measures which have been incorporated into the Bill to protect the public, but I am going to say this to your Lordships—and I should like to make it quite clear what it is that I am talking about. When the Commission have completed their consideration and their plan, and have put it before the Government, if any decision has to be taken to solve passenger problems which is not based on a normal commercial approach—if there are other considerations involved in it—that will be the time for the Government to make such a political decision, and for the Government alone to take the responsibility of making it: in fact only the Government will be able to take it. But that is the time when decisions on the retention or otherwise of lines, routes and so on, on grounds other than commercial ones (on social grounds, or whatever they may be) will have to be taken by the Government.
I want to make that quite clear to your Lordships: that that is the time. It is no good trying to make such decisions in advance, such as now, before all the factors are known. When these are known the "chips will be down", so to speak; and that will be the moment for the Government to take such decisions—which, my Lords, they will take. In the meantime, as the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, rightly said, there are a lot of hard work and many heavy tasks in front of us. At the moment we are trying to provide no more than the structure and the foundation to enable the new organisation to fulfil their duty to the public, which we believe, with confidence, they will do with success.
On Question, Bill passed, and returned to the Commons.

RIVER DART NAVIGATION BILL
Committed to a Select Committee.
REGENT REFINING COMPANY BILL
Committed to an Unopposed Bill Committee.
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