Sitting of 28 February 1962

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.]

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  EMPLOYMENT

    Aberdeen
    Mr. Hector Hughesasked the Minister of Labour if he will state, to the latest convenient date, the number of people unemployed in Aberdeen, city and county, respectively, according to ages, sexes and trades; and what steps he is taking to reduce the number of unemployed.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour (Mr. Alan Green): The reply to the first part of the Question consists of a table of figures, and I will, with permission, circulate it in the

    NUMBER OF PERSONS REGISTERED AS UNEMPLOYED AT EMPLOYMENT EXCHANGES AND YOUTH EMPLOYMENT OFFICES IN ABERDEEN AND IN THE REST OF ABERDEENSHIRE AT 12TH FEBRUARY, 1962

    Industry

    Aberdeen

    Aberdeen County (excluding Aberdeen)

    Men

    Boys

    Women

    Girls

    Total

    Men

    Boys

    Women

    Girls

    Total

    Agriculture and Horticulture

    …

    122

    2

    4

    —

    128

    198

    9

    16

    3

    226

    Fishing

    …

    225

    —

    —

    —

    225

    894

    34

    —

    —

    928

    Food Industry

    …

    89

    8

    58

    4

    159

    89

    5

    132

    6

    232

    Shipbuilding and Ship Repairing

    …

    137

    —

    2

    —

    139

    26

    —

    —

    —

    26

    Non-Electrical Engineering

    …

    56

    1

    3

    —

    60

    10

    1

    9

    —

    20

    Timber

    …

    98

    2

    —

    1

    101

    22

    4

    —

    —

    26

    Paper and Board

    …

    82

    1

    12

    2

    97

    1

    —

    1

    —

    2

    Construction

    …

    270

    3

    4

    —

    277

    186

    3

    3

    —

    192

    Railways

    …

    36

    —

    8

    —

    44

    7

    1

    —

    —

    8

    Sea Transport

    …

    143

    23

    —

    —

    166

    17

    2

    2

    —

    21

    Distributive Trades

    …

    286

    10

    164

    12

    472

    79

    11

    59

    7

    156

    Professional Services

    …

    35

    —

    38

    —

    73

    5

    —

    19

    —

    24

    Catering and Hotels

    …

    107

    —

    66

    1

    174

    8

    —

    18

    3

    29

    Local Government Service

    149

    —

    22

    1

    172

    16

    —

    4

    —

    20

    Other Industries and Services

    …

    758

    8

    280

    18

    1,064

    215

    16

    151

    9

    391

    Total, all Industries and Services

    …

    2,593

    58

    661

    39

    3,351

    1,773

    86

    414

    28

    2,301

    OFFICIAL REPORT. As my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade told the hon. and learned Member recently, continuing efforts are being made to encourage new industry in the area.
    Mr. Hughes: Does the Minister realise that this calls attention to a very important defect in Government administration, because alternate figures with regard to employment and unemployment affect our productivity and our exports, damage our economy very much, and demonstrate the Government's incapacity to deal with our economy? Will the Minister, therefore, consult the President of the Board of Trade, the Secretary of State for Scotland and the other relevant Ministers with a view to devising a constructive policy that will avoid these irregularities?
    Mr. Green: I am sure that the hon. and learned Gentleman knows that my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour is in constant consultation with the Ministers he has mentioned. He might like to know that in Aberdeen itself unemployment between January and February fell by nearly 300.
    Following is the table of figures:

    Factories (Safety Officers)
    Mr. Elwyn Jonesasked the Minister of Labour if he will state the number of factories, the percentage of factories, the number of workers, the percentage of workers, the number of safety committees meeting at least twice a year, and the number of full-time safety officers, a group safety officer to count as one, in factories of the following size groups: 1–25 persons, 26–50, 51–100, 101–250, 251–500, 501–1,000, 1,001 upwards.
    The Minister of Labour (Mr. JohnHare): The latest analysis of registered factories by size groups and percentages of employees in the size groups is given in Appendix II to the Report of Her Majesty's Chief Inspector of Factories for 1959. I regret that the information asked for about safety committees and safety officers is not available.
    Mr. Elwyn Jones: That is very unfortunate. It has been said time and again, both by the Government and by all organisations concerned with safety in work, that safety committees form a very important part of the preventive machinery. Is it not rather deplorable that there are no statistics as to the number of safety committees in existence? Cannot the Minister have this looked at again.
    Mr. Hare: I agree with what the hon. and learned Gentleman said in the first part of his supplementary question. I think that the time and effort which would be required by the Factory Inspectorate to obtain this information would be much better used in getting on with its job of preventing accidents.
    Mr. Elwyn Jones: That is all very well, but cannot the Minister at least give some picture of the extent to which safety committees ate used even in the biggest factories? I see the difficulty of working it out through the whole range of industry, and I sympathise with him in that difficulty, but surely some picture can be given as to the extent to which safety committees are used.
    Mr. Hare: If the hon. and learned Gentleman would put down another Question, I will try to answer him.

    Building and Civil Engineering (Safety Officers)
    Mr. Elwyn Jonesasked the Minister of Labour if he will state the number of fatal and other reportable accidents during building operations and on civil engineering sites, respectively, from 1st January to 30th September in 1960 and 1961; and the number of safety officers now engaged solely in accident prevention at building operations and civil engineering sites, respectively, a group safety officer to count as one.
    Mr. Hare: As the answer to the first part of the Question contains a table of figures, I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    I regret that the information asked for in the second part of the Question is not available.
    Mr. Elwyn Jones: Does this not again show a thoroughly unsatisfactory state of affairs? The mounting toll of accidents is very serious in the building industry. The latest return shows a record number of accidents. Recent trends are in the same direction. As it is almost unanimously agreed that full-time safety officers are a vital part of safety prevention, is it not important that the Ministry should have some picture of the extent to which they are being used? Further, is the Minister satisfied that the present arrangements in the building industry are adequate to ensure the proper enforcement of the building regulations?
    Mr. Hare: I have to give the same answer to the hon. and learned Gentleman. My own view is that it would take up too much of the valuable time of the Factory Inspectorate to procure the information, and I do not think that it would be of much use unless it were also accompanied by information as to the effectiveness of the safety arrangements in each case. I want to get on with the job of preventing accidents, and that is why I am leading this campaign to persuade all industries to strengthen their safety measures.
    Mr. Prentice: Can the Minister give the House some indication of the comparison between the figures for 1961 and 1960? Is he aware that many of us are anxious to know whether this very serious trend continued in 1961, and, if

    1311
    it did, would not that lend strength to the argument that there is a need for much greater enforcement of regulations in the industry?
    Mr. Hare: I am well aware of the need for greater effort and, as the hon. Gentleman knows, I have increased the strength of the Inspectorate. I am conducting a full-scale drive to try to persuade both sides of industry to take the matter far

    NUMBERS OF ACCIDENTS REPORTED FROM SITES OF BUILDING OPERATIONS AND WORK OF ENGINEERING CONSTRUCTION IN THE PERIODS 1ST JANUARY, 1960, TO 30tH SEPTEMBER, I960, AND 1ST JANUARY, 1961, TO 30TH SEPTEMBER, 1961

    1st January to 30th September, 1960

    1st January to 30th September, 1961

    —

    Fatal (included in Col. 3)

    Total

    Fatal (included in Col. 5)

    Total

    (1)

    (2)

    (3)

    (4)

    (5)

    Building Operations

    …

    166

    12,391

    127

    13,706

    Work of Engineering Construction ('Old' Definition)*

    …

    33

    2,090

    47

    2,227

    TOTAL

    …

    199

    15,481

    174

    15,933

    Work of Engineering Construction (Additional Classes only)*

    …

    12

    437

    28

    1,151

    GRAND TOTAL

    …

    211

    15,918

    202

    17,084

    *NOTE: From 15th May, 1960, certain additional classes of construction work were brought within scope of the Factories Acts by the Engineering Construction (Extension of Definition) Regulations, 1960. Figures for these classes of work are given separately.

    Occupational Hygiene Service, Slough
    Mr. Brockwayasked the Minister of Labour what representation his Department has on the Management Council of the Occupational Hygiene Service at Slough; and what contribution is made from public funds towards its maintenance and development.
    Mr. Hare: My Department has two representatives on the Council. No contribution is made to the service from public funds.
    Mr. Brockway: I welcome the representation of the Ministry. May I ask whether this service, which deals with heat, dust and noise in factories—and which, having begun with the Slough Trading Estate, is now serving factories over a wide area of the country—is
    1312
    more seriously. The figures published Indicate that the same trend goes on, although I am glad to say the number of deaths is somewhat lower.
    Mr. Elwyn Jones: In view of the thoroughly unsatisfactory reply, I give notice that I propose to raise this matter yet again on the Adjournment.
    Following are the figures:
    working closely in contact with London University? In view of the admirable pioneer work which has been done by this centre, is not it possible for the Government to give it some encouragement in its difficulties by making a contribution to its funds?
    Mr. Hare: As the hon. Gentleman knows, I have seen this service at work and there is no doubt that it is absolutely first-class. It receives considerable assistance from the Nuffield Foundation and is making a great contribution to the general knowledge on this subject. As the hon. Gentleman will also be aware, similar experiments will be carried out elsewhere. We have a lot to learn about this matter, and with the support given to this and other services in the country by the Nuffield Foundation, we shall acquire much knowledge on which we can form a judgment.

    Blyth, Seaton Valley and Bedlington
    Mr. Milneasked the Minister of Labour what were the unemployment figures for the Blyth, Seaton Valley and Bedlington areas at the latest convenient date; and how they compare with those for the same period twelve months ago.
    Mr. Green: At 12th February there were 474 workers registered as unemployed at Blyth, 246 at Seaton Delaval and 254 at Bedlington; the corresponding figures for February, 1961, were 344, 151 and 167.
    Mr. Milne: Does the hon. Gentleman consider that the improvements made are sufficient to solve the problem in this area? Would he consider discussing the matter with the President of the Board of Trade in order to import a sense of urgency into the question of the direction of employment to this area? Is he aware that there has been far too much complacency about the matter and that we consider that the Minister of Labour and the President of the Board of Trade ought to get together to tackle the problem? Is he aware that the right to work is a fundamental right which is being denied to our people? If the present occupants of the Ministry cannot provide it, will they make way for

    NUMBERS OF MALE AND FEMALE UNEMPLOYED PERSONS REGISTERED AT LOCAL OFFICES IN ROXBURGHSHIRE, SELKIRKSHIRE AND PEEBLESSHIRE ON 12TH FEBRUARY, 1962, AND THE NUMBER OF VACANCIES OUTSTANDING ON 7TH FEBRUARY, 1962.

    —

    Unemployed

    Vacancies Outstanding

    Males

    Females

    Total

    Males

    Females

    Total

    Roxburghshire

    …

    …

    149

    54

    203

    45

    69

    114

    Selkirkshire

    …

    …

    88

    41

    129

    46

    83

    129

    Peeblesshire

    …

    …

    64

    22

    86

    29

    39

    68

    Edinburgh, Peebles, Galashiels Branch Line (Redundant Workers)
    Commander Donaldsonasked the Minister of Labour how many employees of British Railways became redundant on the closure of the Edinburgh, Peebles, Galashiels branch line; and what steps have been taken to provide them with alternative employment.
    Mr. Green: I understand that fifty-eight workers became redundant on the
    1314
    other people who are prepared to put that principle into operation?
    Mr. Green: It does not fall to me to answer a great deal of what the hon. Gentleman has said, but perhaps there are one or two points to which I should reply. Blyth and Seaton Delaval were listed as development districts on 14th December, 1961. I can assure the hon. Gentleman that there is close cooperation betwen Ministry of Labour and the Board of Trade, and we are doing all we can. We do not dissent from the idea that people should have employment where this can be profitably and reasonably done, and we are seeking to secure that.

    Roxburgh, Selkirk and Peebles
    Commander Donaldsonasked the Minister of Labour if he will give the figures for male and female unemployment, respectively, in the three counties of Roxburgh, Selkirk and Peebles on the latest convenient date; and how many applications for employees were unfilled on that day.
    Mr. Green: As the Answer consists of a table of figures, I will with permission circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Following is the table:
    closure of the Hawthornden-Galashiels section of the line. Four have retired on age grounds and five resigned before an offer of alternative work could be made. Alternative employment on the railways was offered to the remaining forty-nine workers and accepted by thirty-one.

    Unemployed Persons
    Mr. Dempseyasked the Minister of Labour how many persons in the United Kingdom were registered as unemployed

    1315
    in January, 1960, 1961 and 1962, respectively; and what were the reasons for the differences.
    Mr. Hare: There were 497,636 at 11th January, 1960, 458,024 at 16th January, 1961 and 503,180 at 15th January, 1962. The percentage rates of unemployment at these dates were 2·2, 20 and 2·2 respectively. As the figures show, these changes are marginal.
    Mr. Dempsey: Does not the Minister realise that it is disgraceful, to say the least, for him to report with such complacency that over half-a-million people were unemployed on the last date which he mentioned? Does not he realise that the time has arrived when we should depart from this haphazard and piecemeal fashion of tackling the problem and get down to energetic planned organisation, so that the unemployed, who represent a wasted asset to the country, may be put to work?
    Mr. Hare: I do not think that the hon. Gentleman is being fair in saying that I announced these figures complacently. I did not do anything of the sort. I answered his question as civilly as I could.

    National Union of Bank Employees
    Mrs. Castleasked the Minister of Labour whether his Department has had further recent discussions with the joint stock banks about the recognition of the National Union of Bank Employees.
    Mr. Hare: Following my talks with the Chairman of the Committee of London Clearing Bankers some months ago, I wrote to the T.U.C. giving it the views the banks had conveyed to me. I have had no further talks since then.
    Mrs. Castle: Does not the Minister agree that it is intolerable that in the second half of the twentieth century the banks of this country should refuse their employees the right to negotiate through the union of their choice? What is the use of setting up a National Planning Council representing both sides of industry when such enclaves of feudalism still exist so far as trade unions are concerned, and what does the Minister propose to do about it?
    Mr. Hare: I have explained to the T.U.C. that I have no power, as Minister
    1316
    of Labour—no Minister of Labour whether in a Conservative or a Labour Government has ever had the power—to compel the recognition of any particular union. I have told the T.U.C. that if it thought that it would help, I would gladly arrange for my officials to have further talks with the officials of the union.

    Retail Prices Index
    Mr. Dempseyasked the Minister of Labour if he will state the retail price index for December, 1960, and December, 1961, respectively; and what was the percentage increase or decrease.
    Mr. Hare: The retail prices index figures—17th January 1956=100—for December, 1960, and December, 1961, were 112·2 and 117·1, respectively. The percentage increase was 4·4.
    Mr. Dempsey: Does the Minister agree that this indicates that the cost of living has gone up? Does not he think that he should now consult with the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who is insisting on a pay pause, with a view to having a price pause?
    Mr. Hare: I hope that the hon Gentleman will realise that the rise in the retail prices index—the figures I gave show that it has gone up—is the price we are having to pay for the considerable rises in incomes which we paid ourselves before last July.
    Mr. Ridsdale: Can my right hon. Friend say how many people have their wages tied to the cost of living figure by fixed agreements and what is the cost of a one point rise in the cost of living on those fixed agreements?
    Mr. Hare: I could not give the figure offhand. A large number of agreements do include an automatic sliding scale which is directly connected with the cost of living. If my hon. Friend will put down a Question, I will try to give him some information on the subject.

    Vacancies
    Mr. Ginsburgasked the Minister of Labour what change there has been in the ratio of unemployed to vacancies for January, 1962, compared with January, 1961.
    Mr. Hare: The ratio of persons wholly unemployed to unfilled vacancies in January, 1962, was 1 to 0·5. In January, 1961, it was 1 to 0·8. It must be borne in mind that not all vacancies are notified to employment exchanges.
    Mr. Ginsburg: Is not this a very serious deterioration? Is not the position for February rather worse? Is not there also a growing amount of concealed unemployment in the economy, and will not the Minister make representations to his right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer for an immediate end to the credit squeeze?
    Mr. Hare: I think that the hon. Gentleman is wrong. The February figures show a slight improvement. They show a 7,000 drop in the total unemployed. On the general point, as the hon. Gentleman knows, the policies of the Government are aimed at restoring and maintaining the stability of our currency and keeping the balance of payments position under control. These are necessary conditions for the country's economic growth and unless that growth can be achieved the position will be far more serious.
    Mr. Ginsburg: Will the right hon. Gentleman look at the figures again? If he examines them carefully he will see that the figures for vacancies this February, as against the previous February, have deteriorated significantly.
    Mr. Hare: I hope that the hon. Member did not misunderstand me. I said that the total of those unemployed, I was glad to say, was down by 7,000 in February compared with January.
    Mr. Tiley: Are not the figures for those fully employed rather good when one considers the scores of thousands of immigrants who have been found jobs in our country?

    Women Office Cleaners
    Mrs. Slaterasked the Minister of Labour what steps he is taking to find employment for the women cleaners who will be out of work as the result of Her Majesty's Government's policy of employing outside contractors.
    Mr. Hare: The services of my local offices are available to all affected by the change to contract cleaning. I am glad to say that there is a steady demand for the services of these ladies. I anticipate no difficulty in finding alternative employment for them.
    Mrs. Slater: Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that, since this matter was first raised on the Floor of the House, there has been direct action to help these women? Would it not be better for the Government to change their present policy and continue to have direct labour for women cleaners in Government offices?
    Mr. Hare: The difficulties about the previous arrangements were that a lot of Departments were unable to recruit and retain in central London adequate numbers of these women cleaners.

    Wales
    Mr. Gowerasked the Minister of Labour how many persons were in civil employment in Wales and in the County of Glamorgan, respectively, at the latest convenient date; what were the comparable figures in 1952; and how many new jobs he expects to become available in each case during the next year.
    Mr. Hare: The figures of the numbers in civil employment are available only for Great Britain. It is estimated that there were about 939,600 insured employees in employment in Wales at mid-1960, the latest date for which figures are available, of whom 457,500 were in Glamorgan. Figures for 1952 were 911,000 and 430,400, respectively. The estimated number of jobs in prospect in Wales is about 22,000 of which some 11,000 are expected to accrue in Glamorgan; I regret that it is not possible to say how many of the jobs may materialise during the next year.
    Mr. Gower: Is my right hon. Friend aware that these excellent figures redound to the credit of himself and his predecessors during the last ten years?
    Mr. Hare: I am glad to say—without scoring any party point—that I think the prospects of employment in Wales are infinitely better than they have been for generations.

    Stour Vale Works, Kidderminster (Closure)
    Mr. Nabarroasked the Minister of Labour what information he has concerning the proposed closure on 30th April, 1962, of the nationalised Stour Vale works at Kidderminster of Richard Thomas Baldwins, Limited; what redundancy is to occur; and what steps he is taking to obtain alternative employment for persons displaced by the works closure.
    Mr. Hare: The firm has decided to close these works, which have been running at a loss for some time because there have been insufficient orders to keep the mills economically loaded. One-hundred-and-ninety-four persons will be affected, of whom eighty-five have been offered jobs at the company's King Swinford works near Stourbridge. My local officers have arranged to register in advance of their discharge men seeking alternative work. There should be no great difficulty in finding employment as I am glad to say that unemployment in Kidderminster is well below the regional and national average.
    Mr. Nabarroasked the Minister of Labour what steps he is taking to initiate conversations with the management of Richard Thomas Baldwins, Limited, to obtain adequate compensatory payments and/or honoraria, on severance of employment of long-service steel works employees, due to the proposed closure on 30th April, 1962, of the nationalised Stour Vale works, Kidderminster.
    Mr. Hare: I understand that payments are to be made to the workers who have a minimum of five years' service with the company, and do not continue in the company's employment at another establishment.
    Mr. Nabarro: On this point of honoraria, can my right hon. Friend assure the House that the standards of compensation and/or honoraria paid to redundant employees by this nationalised undertaking will be not less favourable than those customarily observed by the best private enterprise standards?
    Mr. Hare: I can tell my hon. Friend that I am informed that the scheme of
    1320
    this firm is on comparable lines to those of other firms in industry which have redundancy schemes.

    Industrial Accidents
    Dr. Strossasked the Minister of Labour whether he will give the number of fatal and non-fatal industrial accidents for January to September, 1961, and January to September, 1960, respectively.
    Mr. Hare: The provisional total of accidents reported under the Factories Acts during the first three-quarters of 1961 was 141,714, of which 493 were fatal. During the same period of 1960 the figures were 140,486 and 504, respectively.
    Dr. Stross: Whilst welcoming the fact that there appears to be an improvement in the number of fatal accidents, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he would agree that it is apparently true that there is a worsening in the number of non-fatal accidents? Does not this highlight what my hon. and learned Friend the Member for West Ham, South (Mr. Elwyn Jones) pointed out on an earlier Question, that we need more safety committees and more safety officers as well as more factory inspectors? Will not the Minister realise that there is no problem as to the number of safety officers and safety committees if he will make them a statutory obligation upon all firms?
    Mr. Hare: I am not sure that I agree with the hon. Member as to the last part of his supplementary question. I do not believe that by compulsion we shall get the results we want. Far more than that is required. Both sides of industry increasingly realise that we must get every industry to strengthen its accident prevention machinery. This has the support of the T.U.C. and the employers' federations, and it is what I am trying to do.
    Dr. Strossasked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that the percentage of accidents reported from small factories is lower than the percentage from larger factories; and what is the cause of this variation.
    Mr. Hare: Yes, Sir. The reasons are not clear cut but, in general, the more

    1321
    hazardous processes are organised in large units. In larger works also there is usually much greater movement of people and equipment, which tends to increase the risk of accidents.
    Dr. Stross: Does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that there is another factor, namely, that in these small units and small factories accidents are not reported? Is not this proved by the fact that the total number of workers who claim benefit under the Industrial Injuries Act is about 50,000 or 60,000 a year greater than the number of accidents reported? Will not the Minister do something about it so that we get the actual numbers reported?
    Mr. Hare: I do not think that there is any evidence for what the hon. Member says The more likely reason is the one which I have given, that in the larger factories more dangerous processes take place, far more people are employed and there is more movement.
    Mr. J. T. Price: Do not the Factories Acts provide very serious penalties for breaches of certain conditions laid down by Parliament? Is it not known to the right hon. Gentleman and his advisers that there is known to be great reluctance on the part of his inspectors to initiate prosecutions where the evidence suggests such a course because, unless the factory inspector is absolutely certain that he will secure a conviction, he is reluctant to take the necessary action to enforce the law in many cases?
    Mr. Hare: I do not think that that is a fair criticism of the Factories Inspectorate. I have not had any evidence of that sort. I should be very pleased if the hon. Member would care to give me any evidence he has.
    Dr. Stross: In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the replies to these Questions, I beg to give notice that I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment as soon as possible.

    Underground Gas Storage, Winchester
    Mr. Smithersasked the Minister of Labour what information he has received from the Gas Council regarding the number of people who will find employment in the routine operation of
    1322
    the proposed underground storage of imported methane gas near and beneath the City of Winchester.
    Mr. Green: The Gas Council has informed the Ministry of Power that the number will be very small—probably less than ten.
    Mr. Smithers: Is my hon. Friend aware that in the House yesterday my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary for Science revealed for the first time the elaborate precautions and restrictions stipulated by the Geological Survey to the Gas Council as essential if the admitted dangers of fire, contamination and subsidence are to be avoided? Is he further aware that these quite new precautions do not appear to be provided for by the Bill now before Parliament and therefore some of them will presumably wreck it—
    Mr. Speaker: Order. It is not a proper use of Questions to give the Minister information—which is all that is happening at present—in respect of some matter for which he has not responsibility, or, indeed, of anything else.
    Mr. Smithers: With great respect, Mr. Speaker, this deals with the safety factors involved. I was asking the Minister whether it was not fortunate that so few people would be employed in this project.
    Mr. Speaker: That would appear to be asking the Minister to express an opinion and for that reason it would be defective.
    Mr. Farey-Jones: Will not a large labour force be involved in this project? In view of the scarcity of local labour already urgently required for road projects and other work, is it wise to use such a force? Is my hon. Friend aware that the Gas Council itself has been warned by its own consultants, and here I am quoting, that: "the risks involved …"—[HON. MEMBERS: "READING."]—As to their research on the difficulty of filling the reservoir with gas the consultants say that
    "none of the calculations Rives encouraging results."
    In view of this, is my hon. Friend still of the opinion that this is the most vital use of the labour force available?
    Mr. Green: I was asked what numbers would be employed in routine work if this installation were put in. The answer, I repeat, is "Very small." On construction, no doubt, more people would be required. Presumably a contractor would be required to provide the labour force.

    Unofficial Disputes, North-East
    Mr. Greyasked the Minister of Labour if he will state the percentage loss of working days per man in the North-East through unofficial disputes from 1949 to the present date; and how these figures compare with those for the rest of the country.
    Mr. Hare: The percentage loss of working days, due to all industrial disputes, unofficial and official, in the Ministry of Labour's Northern Region during the years 1955 to 1960 inclusive, was about one-tenth of 1 per cent. per employee, substantially the same figure as for the rest of the United Kingdom.
    Regional figures for the years 1949 to 1954 are not available.
    Mr. Grey: Do these figures compare favourably with the rest of the country? Will the right hon. Gentleman find ways and means of drawing this fact to the attention of industrialists to try to induce them to come up there?
    Mr. Hare: I agree with the hon. Gentleman. I very much hope that firms considering expansion will look to the North-East and bear an mind the point which the hon. Member has made in the House today.

    Immigrants (Work Vouchers)
    Sir C. Osborneasked the Minister of Labour, in view of the growing unemployment in Scotland and the persistent high rate in Northern Ireland, if he will give an undertaking not to issue work vouchers to intending immigrants, except in special cases, until all British people who are willing to work here have been found a job; and if be will make a statement.
    Mr. Hare: No, Sir.
    Sir C. Osborne: When my right hon. Friend said last week in the House that
    "Those who come within category A will not be refused entry on the ground that suitable local labour is available."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 22nd February, 1962; Vol. 654, c 710.]
    and When he also said that the Category A would be unlimited, was he really saying that the Government will let an unlimited number of immigrants come to this country and take jobs away from British workers?
    Mr. Hare: I think that my hon. Friend knows perfectly well that we have no intention of treating Commonwealth immigrants on all fours with aliens. That has been made perfectly clear in the discussions which have been taking place in this House over a number of weeks. The provision that suitable British labour should not be available applies to aliens but has no place in our scheme in the legislation which has been before the House.

    Rehabilitation Services
    Mr. Reesasked the Minister of Labour what consultations he has had with the Minister of Health concerning the possible inclusion within the new hospital plan for England and Wales of rehabilitation services now under his control.
    Mr. Hare: The hospital plan of my right hon. Friend makes provision for medical rehabilitation in the hospitals, but industrial rehabilitation is essentially an employment service and will continue to be provided by my Department.
    Mr. Rees: Would not the Minister agree that, if the hopes he has expressed in answer to Questions No. 2 and 3 and 17 today about the reduced accident rate are realised, the public money used in his services will be better devoted to extending the hospital services, particularly in view of the fact that at the moment certain industrial areas of the country cannot make use of his existing services due to travelling difficulties?
    Mr. Hare: I will certainly draw the attention of my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health to my hon. Friend's supplementary question.

    West Thurrock Power Station Site (Dispute)
    Mr. Dribergasked the Minister of Labour what steps he is taking to bring to a just end the dispute at the West Thurrock power station site.
    Mr. Delargyasked the Minister of Labour what steps he is taking to bring to an end the dispute at the West Thurrock power station between members of the Electrical Trades Union and the London Electricity Board.
    Mr. Parkerasked the Minister of Labour, in view of the continuing labour dispute, despite the resumption of negotiations, concerning the closure by Messrs. Babcock and Wilcox of their West Thurrock site in December, 1961, what action he is taking to help the parties reach a settlement.
    Mr. Green: Our officers have been in close touch with representatives of the Electricity Council, the London Electricity Board and the Electrical Trades Union in an endeavour to secure a resumption of work so that this dispute may be dealt with in accordance with the established arrangements of the industry. I hope a further meeting between our industrial relations officer and officials of the union will take place soon.
    Mr. Driberg: With reference to the letter from the Minister which I received this afternoon, is it correct to say, as he does in that letter, that "there are difficulties between the two sides on procedural aspects"? Is that the only difficulty, or is that rather a mild way of putting some of the allegations against the L.E.B.?
    Mr. Green: I am not concerned with judging the merits or demerits of whatever may be said about allegations, but there are differences between the two sides as to the operation of the agreed arrangements, and it is these difficulties which our officers are now attempting to resolve so that normal negotiations may be resumed.
    Mr. Delargy: Without asking the Minister to pronounce on the merits of the case, may I ask whether he is aware that a considerable time has been lost simply because the London Electricity
    1326
    Board has not made full use of the negotiating procedure? Will he rebuke the Board for that loss of time?
    Mr. Green: I do not think that it is for me to rebuke anybody about this loss of time, but I think it is for my officers to get cracking on the resumption of negotiations between the two sides, and that is what they are seeking to do.
    Mr. Prentice: Will the officers try to persuade the Board to follow the established procedure for dealing with redundancies, because is not one of the disturbing features of this dispute that the procedure apparently was ignored by those who described certain men as redundant?
    Mr. Green: I think I must stick to what is obviously the sensible line. We shall seek to ensure that both parties in this dispute follow the agreed procedure.

    Building Workers, Scotland
    Mr. Emrys Hughesasked the Minister of Labour how many building workers were unemployed in Scotland on 24th February; what percentage this is of the total labour force; and what steps he now proposes to take to reduce unemployment in the building industry in Scotland.
    Mr. Hare: The latest available figures are those for 12th February, when 13,800 workers whose previous employment was in the construction industry were registered as unemployed in Scotland; this represents a percentage of 8·2. There should be a seasonal improvement during the next few months and this year's construction programme for Scotland should not be less than last year's.
    Mr. Hughes: Does the Minister really think that his plan for housing will absorb all those unemployed? Does he not consider it a rather scandalous state of affairs, when the housing problem is so bad in Scotland, that so many building workers, who could be used on building, are unemployed?
    Mr. Hare: The hon. Member knows that there is a very large seasonal element in this programme. I hope that

    1327
    the building programme of Scotland will keep up during this present year certainly to the level of last year.
    Mr. Mclnnes: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, apart from the seasonal problem, Scotland has now recorded its lowest output of houses for the past ten years? Cannot he do something to provide these building trade workers with some form of employment through building what Scotland needs more than anything else—houses?
    Mr. Hare: I certainly take note of what the hon. Gentleman has said and will inform my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State that this point has been raised.
    Mr. Hughes: I wish to give notice that, owing to the unsatisfactory nature of that reply, I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment.

    School Leavers, Ashington-Morpeth Area
    Mr. Owenasked the Minister of Labour what steps are being taken to deal with the unemployment of school leavers in the Ashington-Morpeth area in Northumberland.
    Mr. Green: Most of the young people who left school at Christmas are now in employment. Youth employment officers are making every effort to place the rest.
    Mr. Owen: Is the Minister aware that those figures do not seem to tie up with the latest figures in my possession and that we are now faced with an increasingly acute problem of employment for juniors who left school both at Christmas and preceding Christmas? Is he further aware that, as we are now faced with the impact of the school "bulge", this problem is going to be increasingly difficult? Will his Department make special efforts to ensure employment in this and other areas in the North-East?
    Mr. Green: Of course, we are very interested indeed, and I know that the hon. Gentleman is as well, in securing that these young people, who are our future, get work of the best kind suitable to them as soon as possible. The actual numbers of school leavers still registered for work in this area at 12th February were 20 boys and 24 girls.
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    There are very good prospects of employment for boys in the coal mining industry, which, as the hon. Member knows, is rather good for boys because of the rather exceptionally good apprenticeship training possibilities.

    Unemployed Persons (60–65 Age Group)
    Mrs. Butlerasked the Minister of Labour the number of men between 60 and 65 registered as unemployed in England and Wales at the latest convenient date; and what percentage of the men in that age group this number represents.
    Mr. Hare: On 11th December, 1961, the number wholly unemployed was 34,724, or about 4 per cent. of the estimated number of employees in this age group.
    Mrs. Butler: I am not quite sure whether the Minister said "wholly employed" or "wholly unemployed", but he will be aware that there is considerable difficulty among men of this age group in obtaining employment, and I wonder if he would give special consideration to this problem, particularly in relation to Government Departments, which advertise vacancies in advertisements like these I have here from the Post Office, for example, and which limit the ages of the men offered employment to between 18 and 59, making it impossible for older men to apply for the jobs.
    Mr. Hare: I would first tell the hon. Lady that I said "unemployed". On the other matter, my local officers are always doing what they can to help by making special approaches to employers to consider the merits of people, rather than their age, when they try to fill vacancies. I will take note of what the hon. Lady said.

    West Fife Central Area
    Mr. W. Hamiltonasked the Minister of Labour how many adult males are currently unemployed in the West Fife central area covering the Cowdenbeath Employment Exchange area; how many vacancies exist; and how many jobs for such men are in prospect in the next year.
    Mr. Green: On 12th February, 1962, 775 adult males were registered as unemployed at the Dunfermline, Cowdenbeath, Inverkeithing, and Burntisland Employment Exchanges. One hundred and eleven vacancies for men were outstanding on 7th February. About 300 jobs for men are estimated to be in prospect for this area, but it is not possible to say with accuracy how many will materialise in the next year.
    Mr. Hamilton: Does not the hon. Gentleman recognise the seriousness of the situation? Does he recognise that it will get very much worse in the next three or four years, even assuming that all the jobs which he says are in the pipeline materialise? Can he give us one shred of evidence to show that the Government are tackling the problem with sufficient energy and drive so that these men will get work in the area instead of going to the Midlands and the South-East to get it?
    Mr. Green: The whole area is a development district. The estimated number of new jobs in prospect refers only to those which are expected to arise from industrial development certificates. There are other projects not requiring that action.
    Mr. Hamilton: How many other jobs are involved in these other projects?
    Mr. Green: It would be most unwise to start saying with accuracy how many jobs will thus be available. It would be very misleading, and I do not think I should do it.

    Toothill Committee (Report)
    Mr. W. Hamiltonasked the Minister of Labour if he has yet completed his study of the Report of the Toothill Committee on the Scottish economy; and what conclusions he has drawn which will help to alleviate the chronic unemployment problem there.
    Mr. Rossasked the Minister of Labour what help was given by his Department in Scotland to the Toothill Committee in regard to its Report on the Scottish Economy.
    Mr. Hare: My Controller in Scotland acted as an assessor, and another of my
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    officers served on the Secretariat; in addition my Department gave a great deal of information to the Committee. As my hon. Friend the Joint Under-Secretary of State for Scotland said on 31st January, those of the Committee's recommendations which affect the Government are receiving urgent and careful consideration, and there is nothing I can add to that reply.
    Mr. Hamilton: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of some of the quite sharp comments the Toothill Committee made on present Government policy towards the solution of the unemployment problem? When will the Government announce their decision, because there is a good deal of urgency about it?
    Mr. Hare: As I have just said, the Government are considering this matter very urgently. They will certainly make an announcement when they are able to do so.
    Mrs. Ross: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that we are very grateful for the co-operation and participation in this work of his Department and other Departments? There were so many civil servants in this that it almost bears the official stamp. Does not this make it all the more desirable that there should be some speedy action as a result of this very comprehensive analysis of the chronic defects in the Scottish economy? When shall we see some Government action as a result of this Government-assisted analysis?
    Mr. Hare: We are studying the Report. As soon as we can, we shall make an announcement. Meanwhile, I hope that the hon. Gentleman is not giving the impression that nothing is being done to provide new jobs in Scotland, because he knows that much is being done.
    Mr. Rankin: Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Leader of the House has repudiated responsibility for the Toothill Report? The Secretary of State for Scotland does not seem anxious to assume it. Is the right hon. Gentleman going to answer my debate on the Toothill Report, assuming that I am lucky enough to get it?
    Mr. Speaker: Not on this Question he cannot.

    Factory, Hucclecote
    Mr. Diamondasked the Minister of Labour what estimate he has made of the men and women employed at the Whitworth-Gloster factory at Hucclecote who are unlikely to find suitable work in the Gloucester area in the event of the factory closing down before a new tenant has been found.
    Mr. Green: No such estimate is possible. There may be some temporary difficulties especially for certain categories of workers, but I would not expect any long-term problem.
    Mr. Diamond: Is not the hon. Gentleman aware that committees responsible to his Department have estimated that between 1,500 and 2,000 people are likely to suffer long-term unemployment? Does he not think that he should pay more attention to this instead of relying on panaceas such as, "I am not worried about it" and, "There ought not to be any long-term trouble "?
    Mr. Green: That is an unfair inference to draw from what I said. The hon. Gentleman asked me for an estimate and I said that I did not think that an estimate could be given. The reason why I do not think that the estimate he asked for could be given is that it is not possible to say how many of the vacancies held or jobs in prospect will be taken by the redundant workpeople who are on the unemployment register. As for the prospects of these people obtaining work, there is a very high labour demand in the area, I am glad to say, and it has a current unemployment rate of 1·6 per cent. To give an illustration, of 900 workers who have been discharged from this factory or have left voluntarily since 1st October, 1961, only 35 are now registered as unemployed.
    Mr. Ridley: Can my hon. Friend confirm that there is a strong likelihood that a new tenant will be found for this factory, in which case the problem would be obviated to a great extent?
    Mr. Green: I imagine that this is a very attractive place of work to many industrialists. One problem would be that, if a very large firm came there, I suspect that there would probably be a very grave labour shortage.

    Newmilns, Ayrshire
    Mr. Rossasked the Minister of Labour if he will state for the most recent available date the figures of unemployed at Newmilns, Ayrshire, exchange, and the figures for the same date last year.
    Mr. Green: One hundred and eighty-one on 12th February, 1962, compared with 276 on 13th February, 1961.
    Mr. Ross: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the area covered by this exchange is the centre of the lace-making industry in Scotland? The industry is in recession. Some people may even think it is in decline. Historically and traditionally, the industry employs married women, so the number registered at the exchange does not always reflect the state of employment in the area. Will the hon. Gentleman draw this decline to the attention of the Board of Trade with a view to seeing what can be done to get another industry in the area?
    Mr. Green: I appreciate that the area is very heavily dependent upon one industry. I also appreciate that this industry employs many married women, who may not necessarily be reflected in the figures. Both the hon. Gentleman and I can draw a little comfort from the fact that the number of wholly unemployed has slightly declined—only slightly—and more comfort from the fact that the number temporarily stopped has also declined.
    Mr. Ross: There is a big loss of employment in the area. This affects not only married women but school leavers.
    Mr. Green: I hope that I have said enough to show that I appreciate the problems of the area. We keep them under close consideration.

    Industrial Training Council
    Mr. Prenticeasked the Minister of Labour what further developments will take place in the work of the Industrial Training Council; and what increases will be made in its staff and its budget, in view of the further increase in the number of school leavers in 1962 compared with 1961.
    Mr. Hare: As a matter of the highest priority, the Industrial Training Council is urging on both employers and unions the need to expand and improve all types of industrial training. I understand that further industrial development officers will be appointed as opportunity arises. The Government grant-in-aid will continue to be available for training development work and I am informed that the British Employers Confederation will be providing additional financial aid to help the Training Advisory Service to undertake certain promotional work for group training schemes.
    Mr. Prentice: Will the Government considerably increase their financial contribution? Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that there will be 9 per cent. more school leavers this year than there were last year? In view of this, should not very energetic action be taken so that the good work already done can be expanded to meet this extra need?
    Mr. Hare: As the hon. Gentleman probably knows, the Government money available for the Industrial Training Council is still available. It has not been fully used. If there were any question of that, I should certainly look into the matter. On the general basis, I agree with the hon. Gentleman that we must try to repeat the excellent efforts made last year when, despite many criticisms and many cynics, there was an an increase of 11 per cent. in the number of apprenticeships.

    Wages Regulation Orders
    Mr. Prenticeasked the Minister of Labour what steps he is taking to improve the enforcement of Wages Regulation Orders, in view of the fact that over 15 per cent. of the firms affected by these Orders, which have been visited by his inspectors during the last three years, have been found to be paying wages below the statutory minimum.
    Mr. Hare: New arrangements have been made to increase the effectiveness of inspection. For this purpose, revised instructions have been issued, and routine visits have been spread out more evenly over the country.
    Mr. Prentice: Would the Minister agree that the workers covered by the Wages Council Orders are, in any case,
    1334
    very low-paid workers; and that the increases that many of them merit have been postponed because of the wage pause? That being so, is it not rather scandalous that 15 per cent. or 16 per cent. of firms are still paying less than the statutory minimum, and could not the right hon. Gentleman do much more to increase the number of inspectors and the effectiveness of the inspection system?
    Mr. Hare: The hon. Gentleman has the mistaken idea that merely to increase the number of inspectors gets the desired results. I do not agree. I am convinced that we have an adequate number of people to carry out the job, but I shall certainly not be satisfied as long as any workers are paid less than the statutory minimum to which they are entitled. Most underpayments are not deliberate, but are due to misunderstanding, but we shall keep on with the job of bringing them to light, as we are doing at the moment.

    Girls (Au Pair Arrangements)
    Mr. Boardmanasked the Minister of Labour what control his Department exercises over the employment of girls working under au pair arrangements in this country.
    Mr. Hare: None, Sir. Girls coming to this country under au pair arrangements are regarded as visitors, and their entry and stay are under the control of my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary.
    Mr. Boardman: Is the Minister aware that whilst, on the whole, conditions of employment for these girls are quite reasonable, there are cases in this country—and cases, particularly, of British girls working abroad—where they are being subjected to the most blatant exploitation? Surely, there should be some control over the employment of these young girls working away from their own country. Could not the right hon. Gentleman's labour attaches do some useful work in that connection?
    Mr. Hare: I think that the hon. Gentleman is quite right in saying that the vast majority of au pair arrangements are bona fide, but there are these instances of abuse. That is why my right hon. Friend and I are discussing the

    1335
    matter to see what can be done to prevent those abuses. This is a subject that I looked into with the Italian Government on my visit to Italy last autumn.

  MINISTRY OF DEFENCE

    South Africa (Supply of Arms)
    Mr. Brockwayasked the Minister of Defence what armaments are being plied by Her Majesty's Government to the Government of the Republic of South Africa; and under what arrangements technicians are being provided to assist in the organisation of the three new armament factories.
    The Minister of Defence (Mr. Harold Watkinson): It has been the practice of successive Governments not to disclose information about arms supplied to other countries. The Government have made no arrangement to provide technicians to assist in the organisation of new armaments factories in South Africa.
    Mr. Brockway: With reference to the first part of that reply, may I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman has seen the statements made by the Minister of Defence and other Ministers of the Republican Government that the purpose of the armaments build-up is to suppress movements within the Republic? Does the right hon. Gentleman think that British arms should be given to South Africa for that purpose? As to the latter part of his Answer, is it not the case that technicians have been supplied in connection with the new armaments industries that are being established by the I.C.I, in association with de Beers?
    Mr. Watkinson: In reply to the second part of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question, I made it quite plain that the Government have made no arrangements to provide technicians to assist in any work of this kind. As to the first part, I cannot comment on statements of which I have no knowledge, but I would say that all proposals for the export of arms are examined from the political, strategic and economic angles before they are authorised, and this will cerainly hold for South Africa as for any other country.
    Mr. Paget: Can the Minister of Defence tell us which of our enemies would be assisted by knowing the statistics
    1336
    of arms exports to South Africa? Is not this sort of bogus security quite wrong?
    Mr. Watkinson: This is the practice that was followed by the hon. and learned Gentleman's own Government, and it is also followed by this Government.

    N.A.T.O. (Certificate of Need)
    Mr. Rankinasked the Minister of Defence to what extent the application of Her Majesty's Government to the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation for a certificate of need will cause a modification of defence policy.
    Mr. Watkinson: The application of Her Majesty's Government was made under Protocol II Article VI of the revised Brussels Treaty and does not necessarily involve any modification of British defence policy.
    Mr. Rankin: Is it not the case that in addition to this application, in order to keep the economy ticking over we had to apply in about June of last year to the Central European banks for aid, and also had to get £700 million from the International Monetary Fund? That being so, how does the right hon. Gentleman look forward to meeting this enormous increase of £70 million on defence for the current year? Does he propose to run the financial side of defence on pay pauses?
    Mr. Watkinson: As to the general question of defence policy, the hon. Gentleman will no doubt have his chance next week—
    Mr. Rankin: I hope so.
    Mr. Watkinson:—and I think that it might be better to leave it over until then.
    Mr. Rankin: That is not an answer.

    Overseas Bases
    Mr. Rankinasked the Minister of Defence how many United Kingdom bases overseas he proposes to close.
    Mr. Watkinson: Our plans for the future are set out in some detail in the Statement on Defence, 1962 (Cmnd. 1639).
    Mr. Rankin: As the right hon. Gentleman proposes to save on either garrisons or bases—on which he differentiates—in the Mediterranean, and spend his savings in Aden and Singapore, does he now intend to build up Singapore even more strongly than before in order to carry out the policy—[Interruption.]—which the Prime Minister announced during his Commonwealth visit, when he said that we must retain Singapore because from there we should be prepared, if necessary, to go it alone?
    Mr. Watkinson: I am glad to see that the hon. Gentleman has read at least part of the White Paper. I might, perhaps, suggest that he reads the second part again—about Singapore—before the defence debate, because he is not in line with it at all.

    Far East (Unified Command)
    Mr. Wingfield Digbyasked the Minister of Defence when he proposes to inaugurate a joint service command in the Far East; and from which Service the supreme commander will be appointed.
    Mr. Watkinson: A unified command will be set up in the Far East as soon as practicable. No decision has yet been taken about appointing a commander-in-chief.
    Mr. Digby: In view of the criticism there has been from Australia of this proposal, will my right hon. Friend give very careful consideration to the location of the headquarters?
    Mr. Watkinson: I am very glad that my hon. Friend has asked this Question, because I can say that I have been in close consultation with my Australian and New Zealand opposite numbers about this particular proposal, and I think that they understand very well its advantages.

    N.A.T.O. (Northern Army Group Commander)
    Mr. Frank Allaunasked the Minister of Defence why General Sir James Cassels is to be replaced by a German general as Northern Army Group Commander, with the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation.
    Mr. Watkinson: There has been no s such proposal.
    Mr. Allaun: Will the Minister give the House a denial that this replacement will take place in a few months, because, I if it does take place, will it not automatically mean that this new general, will be in control of the B.A.O.R.?
    Mr. Watkinson: The hon. Gentleman asked whether any proposals have been made to replace General Cassels with a German general. I have said that there have been no such proposals.
    Mr. Bellenger: But will the Minister give the House an assurance that, should there be a replacement, as one imagines there will be, in due course, the general, whoever he may be, will be chosen on military and not on political grounds?
    Mr. Watkinson: I hope that he will be chosen as the best man for the job, but I should also make it plain that the British Government will be fully consulted before any such proposal is made.

    Nuclear Tests
    Mr. Emrys Hughesasked the Minister of Defence what is his estimate of the cost to be incurred in the testing of a nuclear weapon underground in Nevada; and what is his estimate of the cost of production of the weapon to be exploded.
    Mr. Frank Allaunasked the Minister of Defence What is the estimated cost of the British nuclear tests at Nevada; and when, precisely, it is proposed to hold them.
    Mr. Watkinson: The information about costs for which I am asked is classified and I am not prepared to disclose it. As regards the time of the test, my right hon. Friend, the Prime Minister said on 8th February that it would be held within a few weeks.
    Mr. Hughes: Even though the Minister is not prepared to give the exact figures, can he confirm that the cost will be very heavy indeed; and that one of the reasons for his not giving the cost is that he does not want to frighten the British taxpayer? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, although America may be able to go in for these expensive weapons, the state

    1339
    of our economy and finance—as shown yesterday by the Chancellor—is such that this country cannot do so without going bankrupt?
    Mr. Watkinson: On the contrary, this is quits a small test, and the cost is not out of proportion to the size of the test.
    Mr. Allaun: Is the Minister aware that it was stated in Washington on 24th February that this test would take place within fourteen days from then? Is that so? And if—
    Mr. Speaker: Order. The right hon. Gentleman is not responsible for some statement made in Washington. He cannot be asked to confirm or deny a statement made in Washington.
    Mr. Allaun: In that case, Mr. Speaker, perhaps I may rephrase my supplementary question. Will the test take place within the next fourteen days? If so, is it not a discouragement to those who think and hope that something will come out of the Geneva talks to stop all tests by all countries?
    Mr. Watkinson: I think that the hon. Member's supplementary question was really answered by my original Answer, when I quoted my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister as saying on 8th February that the tests would be held within a few weeks.
    Mr. Paget: Will the right hon. Gentleman tell us whether this test involves the proposed nuclear artillery weapon, Blue Water?
    Mr. Watkinson: No, because the information about the test, both as to cost and type, is classified.
    Dr. King: Can the right hon. Gentleman give an estimate of the cost of the recent Russian tests? Will he circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT the statements made by the Russian military leaders at their military celebrations last week as to the extent and power of the recent Russian nuclear tests?
    Mr. Watkinson: I think—
    Mr. Rankin: On a point of order. What responsibility does the Minister have for answering for Russia?
    Mr. Speaker: I dare say that the right hon. Member can circulate something in
    1340
    the OFFICIAL REPORT, but perhaps we had better get on. Mr. Maudling—statement.

NORTHERN RHODESIA CONSTITUTION
The Secretary of State for the Colonies (Mr. Reginald Maudling): In September last my predecessor announced that once violence and disorder had ceased in Northern Rhodesia, Her Majesty's Government would be ready to consider, on the basis of the White Papers and his statement in the House on 26th June, any representations within the area where divergencies of view on the Constitution still persisted. When the Governor reported to me that violence and disorder had ceased I called for such representations and I subsequently visited Northern Rhodesia and saw representatives of all the parties concerned.
Not surprisingly, there were widely differing views expressed. But many of the demands made fell outside the limits set by the September statement. Her Majesty's Government have reached the conclusion that some changes are required in the June proposals, but that these should not amount to reopening questions which, at the time, opinion in the territory appeared in general ready to accept.
In particular, Her Majesty's Government believe that the fundamental principle of the White Papers should be maintained, namely, that it should be open to any party or parties to obtain a majority if they can pass the necessary tests and that, in particular, in order to qualify for a national seat, any candidate must obtain a stated minimum percentage of votes from both races.
Her Majesty's Government have considered with particular care the aspect of the proposed Constitution which has caused the greatest controversy, namely, the numerical alternative of 400 votes. The effect of this is that while the degree of support that an African candidate would normally have to obtain from the European voters would have been one in eight, a European appealing to African voters would have needed only around one in twenty-five. Her Majesty's Government accept that this gives ground for legitimate complaint

1341
and that the purposes of the White Papers can best be achieved if candidates have to obtain the same minimum proportion of the votes of either race. They therefore propose to abolish the numerical alternative.
Her Majesty's Government further feel that the qualification of 12½per cent. is too high and they therefore propose to reduce it to 10 per cent. We do not propose to make any other changes.
The necessary Orders in Council will be made and they will be laid before the House as soon as possible. It is the earnest hope of Her Majesty's Government that all parties in Northern Rhodesia will now co-operate in the new Constitution and fight the election, when it comes, on this basis.
Mr. Healey: When my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, South-East (Mr. Callaghan) commented on the right hon. Gentleman's predecessor's proposals last June, he described them, I think, as a "dog's breakfast". I prefer to describe the right hon. Gentleman's proposals today as more like the curate's egg.
Sir K. Pickthorn: Oh dear.
Mr. Healey: I think that all my hon. Friends will welcome the abandonment of the numerical alternative of 400 and the reduction in the qualifying percentage from 12½ per cent. to 10 per cent., although we would have wished to have seen a reduction in the qualifying percentage of an even greater amount.
Would not the Colonial Secretary agree that even this new proposal falls far short of the demands of political equity, of the recommendations of the Monckton Commission eighteen months ago, and, indeed, of the proposals of his predecessor last February? Would he not agree, for example, that under the franchise at present proposed the European community, proportionately, will still have ten times as many votes as the African community?
Sir K, Pickthorn: On a point of order. If the hon. Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey) were asking a supplementary question, would it be in order for him to read it?
Mr. Speaker: It appears to be a second supplementary question and,
1342
sometimes, reading may tend towards brevity.
Mr. Healey: Thank you for your Ruling, Mr. Speaker.
Is it not still the case that it is possible, when two candidates obtain the qualifying percentage in a given seat, under the existing arrangements, for the candidate with the minority of the total vote to be elected? Does the Colonial Secretary really believe that it is possible to persuade the African population to accept the benefits of democracy when it is presented to them in such a form—a form which requires some mathematical expertise fully to understand? Let me say, in spite of that [HON. MEMBERS: "Speech."]—that my right hon. and hon. Friends and myself hope that the African leaders will accept these proposals and will co-operate in carrying them out in the forthcoming elections.
I ask the Colonial Secretary—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."]—wait for it—whether he can assure the House that the elections will be held before any conference to review the Federal Constitution because it is most undesirable, now that these new proposals have been made, that the people of Northern Rhodesia should not be represented at any Federal review conference by the Government which they so elect?
I understand that the Federal Prime Minister—
Mr. F. M. Bennett: On a point of order. No one really wishes to delay the culmination of this supplementary, Mr. Speaker, but is it not about time that the hon. Gentleman hatched his egg?
Mr. Healey: I wish to put a final question to the Colonial Secretary. I understand—and this is of great importance and interest to hon. Members on both sides of the House—that the Federal Prime Minister has arrived, uninvited, in London, and that his visit—[HON. MEMBERS: "Speech."] Wait for it. I would like to ask the Colonial Secretary whether he will assure the House that Her Majesty's Government will not be deflected from the course which has just been announced by the treasonable

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threats of the Federal Prime Minister—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."]—and whether he will inform Sir Roy—
Mr. P. Williams: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Is it within the rules of order and the bounds of propriety of the House to refer to the Prime Minister of the Federation of Rhodesia and Nyasaland, a member of the Commonwealth, as acting in a treasonable way? If it is not in order, would it not be quite courteous of the hon. Gentleman to withdraw the offensive words?
Mr. Speaker: What has happened so far is that the hon. Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey) has got half way through a sentence which, I think, contained the words "treasonable threats" and that I have not yet heard any more about it.
Mr. Healey: It will be within the knowledge of the House that Sir Roy was quoted on the one o'clock news as saying that he would go the whole hog and use all means, including, if necessary, force, to prevent a dissolution of the Federation, although it is within the constitutional powers of this House to dissolve the Federation if it so desires. Therefore, I regard the remarks which I used not only as in order, but—
Mr. Speaker: We are really getting very disorderly. The strict position is that I am entitled to allow the hon. Member to ask certain questions and, to be perfectly fair, I allow certain introductory remarks on these occasions to, I think, the Leader of the Opposition only. I would be grateful if the hon. Gentleman would now ask his question.
Mr. Healey: May I, finally, say this—[HON. MEMBERS: "No"] Is the Colonial Secretary aware that the survival of the Commonwealth in Africa depends on Her Majesty's Government standing firm against Sir Roy Welensky's threats in this matter?
Mr. Maudling: As I announced this afternoon, this does not amount to a return to the February proposals. I was concerned not so much with the degree of resemblance between this and any other proposals, but with getting them right, as I believe we have. Certainly, I believe that we can persuade the Africans, and must make every possible
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effort to persuade the African parties, to participate in elections and co-operate in the Constitution on this basis. I am grateful to the hon. Member for indicating that his party will also endeavour to persuade them to take that attitude.
On the question of the Federal review, it is essential to settle this controversy about the Northern Rhodesian Constitution first, but a date for the resumption of the Federal Review Conference has not yet been settled.
I cannot accept the hon. Gentleman's final words; I do not accept them from any quarter at all, but I would say that Her Majesty's Government do not intend to be deflected by any threats from whatever quarter.
Mr. Turton: Would my right hon. Friend explain the difference between this announcement, the announcement that his predecessor made on 21st February last year and the announcement which he made on 26th June in this respect? The February announcement was described as the conclusion of Her Majesty's Government. The June announcement was put forward as the final decision of Her Majesty's Government. Following violence in Northern Rhodesia, the right hon. Gentleman's predecessor said that he would withdraw it. I would like my right hon. Friend to say whether this announcement is more final than the announcement in June. If there should be a recurrence of violence will this announcement be replaced?
Mr. Maudling: As I explained in my statement, my right hon. Friend said in September that we would review the situation over a limited area of the proposals when violence had ceased. Violence did cease. We did review the situation with an open mind in this area of the proposals, and we came to this conclusion, from which we shall not be deflected by threats from any quarter.
Mr. Grimond: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the changes which he has made from the June proposals are very welcome? Can he tell us now in rather more detail the position about the minimum qualifying percentage and how it differs from the February proposals? Can he tell us whether the new proposals will allow the black Africans to elect a majority in the Assembly?

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Finally, while I appreciate that the Government may not wish to comment on it, will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that many people in this country are profoundly shocked by the statement of Sir Roy Welensky that he is to take every step to carry out the policy which he wishes to carry out and to go the whole hog? This would appear to be a direct encouragement to lawlessness and it is a most unfortunate statement at this moment.
Mr. Maudling: On the first point, the position now is that no candidate can be elected to a national seat unless he achieves a minimum of 10 per cent. of the votes cast by both races. How that will result in practice at the election no one can foretell with certainty, but, as I said in my statement, it does mean that any party or parties who obtain the necessary support and pass the necessary tests will be able to obtain a majority.
On the second point, I do not think that it would be proper for me to comment on that statement by the Federal Prime Minister.
Mr. Wall: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the statement which he has just made indicates that the Government are still sitting on the fence and appear undecided whether to back a non-racial future for the Federation—[HON. MEMBERS: "No."]—or to hand over to racialists, either black or white? Could he say when the elections in Northern Rhodesia are likely to take place and, also, what plans he has for the future of the Federation, which, due to the intervention of the United Nations, has become a matter of great urgency?
Mr. Maudling: The time of the elections will depend, first, on passing the necessary Orders in Council, and then drawing up the new constituencies following the new register. I do not think it will be possible to hold them before the autumn.
The future of the Federation is, I think, a matter outside the scope of this statement, which is confined mainly to Northern Rhodesia. But I think the view of Her Majesty's Government is quite clear, that the success of the Federation must depend on the future consent of the majority of the people.
Mr. Sorensen: Has the right hon. Gentleman received any indications of the reactions of the various parties involved to these proposals, and also from Sir Roy Welensky himself in his second, third or fourth thoughts?
Mr. Maudling: I await those reactions with great interest, because very important issues hang upon them.
Mr. P. Williams: Will my right hon. Friend give a specific assurance that this further final settlement will do nothing whatsoever to break the continued existence of the Federation of Rhodesia and Nyasaland, and will he go a stage further and say that Her Majesty's Government continue to uphold the principle of a non-racial approach to those problems in Central Africa and, in fact, will promote this policy?
Mr. Maudling: I believe that these proposals will contribute to the prospects of Federation in Central Africa. I believe that the only prospect for the future happiness of Europeans and Africans alike in Central Africa depends upon mutual tolerance and co-operation.
Mr. G. M. Thomson: Can the right hon. Gentleman say why he has not dropped the proposals so widely criticised for a separate seat for Asian and coloured voters in Northern Rhodesia? Can he also say whether Barotseland accepts the proposals which he put forward?
Mr. Maudling: The question of the Asian seat is difficult. I received representations from various sources in differing directions. It is a question that one can argue about. We thought it right to concentrate on the thing that really matters, the main bone of contention, by removing the discrimination between European and African in the matter.
I have assured the Litunga that the special position of Barotseland is not affected by the changes that I have announced this afternoon.
Sir R. Nugent: Is my right hon. Friend aware that he seems this time to have struck about the right balance of unacceptability between the two parties? Inevitably, some Europeans in Northern Rhodesia will think that it goes too far and some Africans will think that it does

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not go far enough. I believe that the majority of opinion here and in Northern Rhodesia will support my right hon. Friend if he sticks to the decision and carries it into action.
Mr. Maudling: We have done our best to produce what we believe to be the right answer, and if it is not accepted by all parties in Northern Rhodesia the consequences will be tragic everywhere.
Mr. Creech Jones: Does the right hon. Gentleman regard this as a final constitutional settlement of the problem in Northern Rhodesia? In the event of the Africans boycotting the Constitution as now presented, and of instructions being forthcoming from Sir Roy Welensky and his party, what will the policy of the Government be?
Finally, will the right hon. Gentleman tell me what will be the position of the Africans on the Governor's Executive as a result of the constitutional changes and should the Africans secure a majority?
Mr. Maudling: I regard this as a definitive statement of the position at this stage of the constitutional development of Northern Rhodesia. The second question I must regard as hypothetical. I did not quite understand the purport of the third question.
Mr. Creech Jones: Obviously, if there is a majority of Africans elected to the Legislative Council, some position will have to be found for Africans on the Governor's Executive. What I want to know is this. If a majority is secured in the Lower Chamber, will a majority be permitted on the Governor's Executive?
Mr. Maudling: It is the normal practice of Governors to form a Government based upon the majority party after election.
Mr. H. Clark: Is my right hon. Friend aware of how very much on this side of the House we welcome the down-to-earth manner in Which he has dealt with this very difficult problem? Does he realise that the vast majority of his hon. Friends feel that, had he made a different statement today, he would merely have postponed a question which, in two or three years, would have been very much more difficult to answer?
Mr. G. Brown: Does the Secretary of State realise that apparently convincing answers—though, I gather, rejected by him—to what he has now announced were given by his predecessor the present Leader of the House in paragraphs 10, 11, 12 and 13 of the White Paper which he presented to the House as a final settlement in June, 1961? Having regard to this difference between Ministers sitting together on the Front Bench, it is plain that this is a very complicated matter.
The right hon. Gentleman has told us that there will be some Orders, but, of course, Orders in Council may come on at any time of the day or night. Will the Leader of the House be willing to provide a proper opportunity for the House to discuss this very important statement made by the present Secretary of State for the Colonies, which, clearly, overturns the statement which he himself made last June?
The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Mr. Iain Macleod): Orders in Council will come before the House, and there are other opportunities which can be taken. Perhaps the most satisfactory way would be to have discussions through the usual channels.
Mr. Speaker: Ballot for Notices of Motions.
Mr. Biggs-Davison: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I am the only hon. Member who put down a Question to the Secretary of State for the Colonies asking him whether he was prepared to make a statement on the Northern Rhodesia Constitution. I have sought throughout to catch your eye. I wonder whether, in the circumstances, you would think it right to allow me to ask the Secretary of State a supplementary question.
Mr. Speaker: I confess that the hon. Gentleman's Question was not in my mind at the time. I have this difficulty every day with these matters, when the time comes when, obviously, we ought to stop and an hon. Member who is left out feels that it is unfair. In this instance, I should like to relent and allow the hon. Gentleman to ask one question.
Mr. Biggs-Davison: I am deeply grateful to you, Mr. Speaker.

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Will the Secretary of State say, first, whether these proposals honour the assurances about the Northern Territories which were given to the Southern Rhodesians at the time of their referendum? Secondly, since the Prime Minister has taunted the Leader of the Opposition with being a sort of Lord North, may we have an assurance that there are no Lord Norths sitting on the Treasury Bench who might provoke Sir Roy Welensky into becoming not only a George Washington but an Abraham Lincoln, who, just 100 years ago, was reluctantly compelled to fight to save the Union?
Mr. Maudling: The statement I made today does not represent any departure from any undertaking whatsoever given by Her Majesty's Government.
On the second point, I should be tempted to reply that my knowledge of history is not adequate to deal in any detail with my hon. Friend's supplementary question did I not feel that I must say that these are matters of such moment that we must in this House deal with all on a basis of reason, not of passion.

BALLOT FOR NOTICES OF MOTIONS
  Toll Bridges
  Mr. Marten: I beg to give notice that on Friday, 16th March, I shall call attention to the question of toll bridges, and move a Resolution.
  Illegitimate Persons
  Mr. Parker: I beg to give notice that on Friday, 16th March, I shall call attention to the need to set up a committee to inquire into the legal and social disabilities of illegitimate persons, and move a Resolution.
  Exports
  Sir J. Langford-Holt: I beg to give notice that on Friday, 16th March, I shall call attention to exports, and move a Resolution.

COMMON EUROPEAN LANGUAGE
3.55 p.m.
Mr. A. Woodburn (Clackmannan and East Stirlingshire): I beg to move,
That leave be given to bring in a Bill to facilitate the formation of a common European language.
The purpose of my proposed Bill is to facilitate the formation or evolution of a common European language. The term "evolution" is, perhaps, more appropriate, for I am convinced that events have already taken a hand and the pattern of things to come is already showing itself.
Mr. F. Blackburn: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Could we have more quiet in the Chamber, so that we may hear what my right hon. Friend is saying?
Mr. Speaker: Order. Let what the right hon. Gentleman is saying be audible.
Mr. Woodburn: It is not a new idea, of course, to seek a common tongue for mankind. There are some remarkable achievements in the construction of second languages. Since I announced my intention to introduce the Bill, I have received many letters dealing with languages which are already in existence, of which Interlingua is probably the latest. Esperanto, of course, has been known for two generations.
It is not my intention today to pass judgment on these languages. I have to recognise that none of them has so far been accepted as public policy, and, in my view, the development of events is tending to pass them by. It is for that reason that I believe that the time has come for the Governments of Europe, and particularly our own, to take action. The need to adopt a common language which will serve Europe and, perhaps, the world is becoming urgent.
Scientific progress has annihilated distance and made national barriers anachronisms. People and industries are flowing across frontiers, and the peoples of Europe need to speak to each other. In more leisurely days, it was possible for a few people to learn languages, but when they acquired only one they might

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find that it was the wrong one. There are nearly 20 languages west of the Iron Curtain. It is simply not practicable for great numbers of people to learn five or six languages—perhaps not even two.
In any case, science and industry are rushing forward at such a pace that the claim on people's brain energy is becoming ever greater, and there is a strain on education in all countries to meet the need. A nation just cannot afford to use its scarce intellectual capacity on dilettante studies. We must, therefore, economise on our talent by getting rid of the waste of time spent in acquiring useless and confusing knowledge.
I am glad that the Government have already made a start. We are soon to count in decimals, measure our temperature in centigrade and, perhaps, drive on the right-hand side of the road. But there is another great waste of energy in the schools. Children spend quite unnecessary time and effort in learning the tricks of our language and how to spell it. Even now, most of us in the House could be tripped up if we were asked to spell certain quite common words. Much of it appears as a jumble of illogicality or a trap to trick children and break their hearts.
Some work is already being done in the schools to help. The hon. Member for Bath (Sir J. Pitman) tells me that experiments are being successfully carried out in schools with an extended alphabet and the use of one type. Children are learning in this way to read more easily and more quickly, and this in itself shows that progress can be made.
Spoken English can be broken down into forty different sounds but there are over two thousand different ways of spelling them. The vowel "y" can be spelled out in "by", "bye", "buy", "island", "eye", "rhyme", "aye", and so on. The vowel "o" can be spelled in "flow", "sow", "sew", as with a needle, "no", "dough", "boat", "gone", "done", "home", "one", and so on. Bernard Shaw reduced this to an absurdity by spelling "fish" as "ghoti". The "gh" was as in "rough"; the "o" was as in "women"; and the the "ti" was as in "nation". That made the spelling of "fish".
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Our grammar is almost as tricky. One hears well-educated people saying, "Between you and I". It is a common conceit for people to look down their noses at those who fall down on spelling, grammar, pronunciation or construction. It is said that even now the French aristocracy can recognise each other because only they can pronounce the names of the French noble families. This is illustrated by the story of the sergeant who was calling the roll. When he came to the name "Montague", he called, "Montaig", and when there was no reply he repeated the name "Montaig". Again, there was no answer. Looking at the person he suspected of owning the name, he asked, "What is your name?" The answer was "Montague". He said, "Very well, Montague. All right Three days fatigewe."
I used to suspect that one of our greatest Cabinet Ministers of recent days deliberately refused to comply with the accepted rules of speech. He gave up trying to master the code. Even today we had a Minister on the Front Bench talking about "Burntissland". The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour talked about "Burntissland", which shows that even a person of his ability cannot possibly master this code. He was referring, of course, to Burntisland. Any numbers of these mistakes are made.
The importance of our dealing with our own language is that English is rapidly becoming the most used second language in the world. We all, I feel sure, are a little ashamed when we hear Russians, Germans, Danes, Dutchmen, Frenchmen and Spaniards speaking English even better than we do. Even here in the House we must bow to our Welsh colleagues, who show a greater mastery of their second language than most of us do of our first.
According to a survey made by the magazine Life, which seems to have used its last two issues to support my case, English is spoken by 250 million people today and English can reach 600 million people. One in ten of the world's population speak English and one in four can be reached by English. Spanish comes next with 140 million people, then French with 65 million, and then Italian with 55 million. These languages, which have much in common,

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can reach nearly half the population of the globe. In addition, 100 million people speak German and 130 million people speak Russian.
English is now the language used by international aviation, and India has reverted to English as a common language to bridge her various dialects. The Russians and the Chinese use English for their propaganda to the Far East and Africa, and I am told that they send more printed matter in English to these countries than we do.
In view of our reluctance or inability to learn foreign languages we ought, of course, to be pleased that the use of English is now so widespread, but if it is to become the principal second language of the world, we have a responsibility to make it easier to learn, speak, and write. Since it is no one's business at the moment, the Bill proposes that we should establish a British Academy of Language. It would, I hope, do for our language what the Académie Français does for French and similar authorities do in Germany and other countries.
The position, however, is becoming daily more difficult, for every day brings new words into all the European languages. One of the duties of the Academy would be to co-operate with other academies to avoid further diversity by recommending an agreed spelling, pronunciation and form for all new words. In this way, from now on there would be a steadily increasing proportion of common words added to all the existing languages. Together the different countries might form a European Academy of Language. At present, there is still a tendency to insist on being different. We give an English form to our words and the French give a French form. I read that the Office du Vocabulaire Français discourages the use of English words where French words are available. Curiously enough, it uses the English word "snobisme" to denounce the practice.
Of course, every country is proud and jealous of its traditions and literature. Every language has contributed to the already common fund of words. We can all think of words in French, German, Italian and Spanish which we have in daily use concerning cars, aviation, science, music, art and sport. English itself has contributed many words to
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other languages. In this way all languages have been enriched. What is now wanted is to build on this foundation.
The Academy would make a great contribution to the spread and use of English in this way if we made it easier to learn. Every teacher and pupil would welcome a decision to eliminate anomalies and to improve the use and teaching of English. I believe that a basic English course with about 1,000 hard-core words was successfully provided for foreign volunteers during the war and that it was possible to learn these in about sixty hours.
In this improvement the collaboration of the United States might be sought, for they, too, are faced with this problem—indeed, inside their own country. The joint Academies, as I see it, should then proceed to select from all existing languages all similar or identical words and recommend for them, too, a common form and pronunciation. To this could be added words from every language which commend themselves as suitable for assimilation into all languages. The Academies might also recommend the elimination of anomalies which complicate existing languages with a view to making them easier to learn and to speak. A Dr. Drove, who has spent much time on this subject, says that it is far more difficult for an English child to learn its language than for either a French or German child to learn its language.
It may be thought that this is all a romantic vision, but the fact is that it has already been done. My proposals are based on what has already been proved to be successful. After all, our own modern English is vastly different from that of Chaucer, and is itself evolved out of and superimposed on the many dialects and languages in Britain.
The greatest example, however, of which I can think is the creation of the German language. I have forgotten much of the German that I learned, but I never forget the thrilling story of its origin, and it is this that has inspired my proposal today. Like our own modern English, it owed its standardisation to the Bible. Luther wanted his Bible to be read. He was faced with

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a large number of tribes and dialects—a miniature of our present European Tower of Babel. He set about creating a common German language out of the existing tongues. All the words common to all the dialects were collected, and to these were added a number from every dialect.
In this way, most of the words in the Bible were understood by all and the others were quickly learned. For a common pronunciation he went to the strolling players, who had had to solve this problem for themselves, and they carried the common pronunciation throughout the land. With these two media, modern German was standardised into a language.
Science has given us nearly perfect instruments if we want to repeat this process for Europe as a whole. We have the Press and the power of broadcasting and television. A common language would, in turn, benefit both the Press and broadcasting by multiplying their audiences many times. Because of the extension of travel and trade, there will be eager students everywhere ready to learn the new language.
In time, we may be able to get a perfectly logical language accepted, as many of the pioneers have tried to do. If enthusiasm had been enough, such a language would already have been in use. The Bill suggests that for the moment we should speed up and channel a trend already in being—to facilitate and encourage the assimilation and development of our existing languages.
This is happening before our very eyes. However, the development should not be left to chance but be given intelligent control. Friendship and human relations require careful cultivation and for us all in Europe to be able to speak to one another in a common tongue would be one of the greatest steps forward we could take towards the brotherhood of man.
Question put and agreed to.
Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. Woodburn, Sir David Campbell, Mr. Thomas Fraser, Sir Myer Galpern, Mr. James Hoy, Mr. Roy Jenkins, Sir James Pitman, Mr. G. M. Thomson, and Mr. Willis.

COMMON EUROPEAN LANGUAGE
  COMMON EUROPEAN LANGUAGE
  Bill to facilitate the formation of a common European language, presented accordingly and read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Friday, 23rd March, and to be printed. [Bill 69.]

ROAD TRAFFIC BILL [Lords]
Order for Second Reading read.
4.12 p.m.
The Minister of Transport (Mr. Ernest Marples): I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.
After the previous business of the House, when we had a majority of Scots backing a Bill to make the English language a common European language, I feel rather diffident about my ability to explain this Bill.
I feel particularly diffident because during the Berlin airlift, when I was coming back from Berlin to Frankfurt with an American sergeant, I spent twenty minutes explaining life in Berlin to him, I thought in my most eloquent manner; but in Frankfurt he slapped me heartily—much too heartily—between the shoulder blades and said, "Say, bud, for a German you speak good English". So, with the shy and timid manner with which the House associates me, I shall now do my best to explain the Clauses of the Bill.
I am told that many hon. Members on both sides of the House wish to speak, and as we have already had a considerable amount of time taken up with other matters, I shall confine my remarks to as short a time as possible in order to help them.
Although this is called a traffic Bill, that is purely out of deference to the precedents. Its main object is road safety. There is no difference between the parties in the normal sense about road safety. We often have our rows and quarrels, but on this occasion the rows will not be party rows, but because hon. Members do not think that provisions will do what they are supposed to do.
In introducing the provisions of the Bill, I am conscious that we should consider them in the context of the Government's road safety policy as a whole. The Bill is only part of it and it has

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many other facets. I should like to describe a few things which the Government are doing towards road safety and to make those remarks under three headings—engineering, education, and enforcement, what are called "the three E's."
The Bill is only a small contribution, but everything that makes a contribution to road safety is important. When we consider that, in 1960, 6,970 people were killed and 347,551 people were injured on the roads and the cost to the nation was estimated at £229 million, we can all agree that this is a most serious problem which has to be faced in this country.
I will begin with engineering and describe a couple of experiments which the Government are conducting. On the question of black spots, we find out where the accidents occur, and why, and then we put the matter right. We improve alignments at bends, stagger dangerous crossroads, resurface and re-camber our roads, thus cutting accidents down by as much as 70 or 80 per cent. I will quote some examples of what the Government have done in that respect.
A roundabout was built at Sawley crossroads, a four-road junction on the A.6, in Leicestershire. During the four years before it was built, there were 10 personal injury accidents, but in the following three years and four months there were no personal injury accidents. Another example is that of a four-road junction at Poddimore crossroads, near Langport and Yeovil. The junction was staggered in 1950. In the three years before that there were nine personal injury accidents, but in the same period afterwards there were only three.
I could quote examples ad infinitum, but I have arranged for some illustrations to be placed in the Library so that hon. Members can study the photographs and see what has been done. There is no doubt that we can do much on the engineering side.
The second example of engineering is on traffic management in the towns. I am convinced that the London Traffic Management Unit, which is now reshaping London traffic—possibly shaping London traffic to the internal combustion engine for the first time—
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can play a great part. One of the biggest schemes which we have introduced is that at Tottenham Court Road. It has three achievements to its credit. First, traffic moves twice as fast as it did, and that is something. Secondly, there is a 30 per cent. greater capacity for traffic because we made it one way, with Gower Street. Thirdly, pedestrian casualties in the first six months of its working were 30 per cent. less than in the six months before.
So we have achieved everything—traffic moves faster, pedestrians are safer, and more traffic can be accommodated. I hope to continue these measures both in the interests of the traffic and the interests of road safety. That is the Government's job and we will do it.
In all honesty, I am bound to say that the scheme inconveniences pedestrians, because a pedestrian dare not cross Tottenham Court Road at the wrong place because the traffic is moving so fast. Pedestrians are forced to cross at the right places, but I would rather inconvenience a pedestrian than kill or injure him. Therefore, when a pedestrian asks me to go back to the old system because it was more convenient, I reply that the old system was more dangerous. If we are now killing and injuring 70 instead of 100, I shall not go back to the old system even though pedestrians are inconvenienced. Although certain enforcements are applied to motorists, we must also have some enforcement for pedestrians.
We are to try a new experiment at three places in London. In this new experiment there will be a light signal of a new design. A pedestrian will be able to press a button and two things will then happen. First, the traffic will be completely halted for an all-red period. During that time, pedestrians should cross at the places appointed for them. Secondly, I propose to use my powers to require pedestrians to cross at those points and nowhere else. If these experiments at three selected places are successful, I propose to introduce them on a wider scale. In these matters I am a great believer in trying an experiment in a small way and then, if it is successful, trying it on a larger scale. So much for engineering. That is the background to my speech.
Mr. Norman Cole: Will my right hon. Friend say a word about what happens if, at the amber phase, somebody starts to cross from the edge of the crossing?
Mr. Marples: There will be an all-red period when the traffic cannot move at all. During that time, it will be so phased that the pedestrian can cross diagonally or in various ways and will be safeguarded during the all-red period. If we do that, as I think we should, for the pedestrian, we are entitled to ask him to use the crossing in that way.
Mr. Cole: Suppose the pedestrian starts just when the red period has ended.
Mr. Marples: If the amber is showing, the red will follow and there will be ample time for the pedestrian to cross. I think that my hon. Friend will be satisfied if he watches the experiment. I will go with him, if necessary, and argue it on the spot, which would be quicker than arguing it here.
Mr. Charles Pannell: The hon. Member might not come back.
Mr. Marples: Nobody obeys the signs like my hon. Friend the Member for Bedfordshire, South (Mr. Cole). He is not as reckless as the hon. Member for Leeds, West (Mr. C. Pannell).
I now come to the second E—education—engineering being the first. It has been curious what has happened in the education of people in traffic. It has been extremely successful with children, but not so successful with adults. Among children, education has had amazing results, as the figures covering the past thirty years show. In 1930, 1,685 children were killed. In 1960, with four times the amount of traffic, the number of children killed was not 1,685 but 700. That is a remarkable achievement in education. Not only do we save the lives of children, but when they grow older they are better citizens from the viewpoint of road traffic behaviour Those are two good points.
Great tribute should be paid to the teachers and the police. Their work, together with that of the local safety committees and voluntary workers, has obviously not been in vain. Therefore, we have been successful with children and we propose to continue with their
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cycling efficiency scheme and other measures.
In the case of adults, the problem is more difficult. Adults seem to think that they know everything about road safety. We hammer them with posters, we hurl films at them and we exhort them. The problem is difficult. Perhaps I may illustrate it this way. There is tremendous carelessness and a number of personal injury accidents at cross roads. I have gone into the figures carefully and the House will be interested to know of them.
There are about a quarter of a million personal injury road accidents each year. Half of those, or one-eighth of 1 million per annum, occur at road junctions. Suppose we decided that as half the personal injury accidents occur at road junctions, we would have a campaign to convince the motorist that he ought to be careful at road junctions. Immediatedly we come up against an awful fact. The drivers know in their hearts that their conduct at cross-roads is all right, and they have reason to think so. I have worked it out. If we take the statistics of all the drivers, cars and accidents we arrive at the calculation that at one out of every 3 million junctions over which a motorist drives, there is a personal injury accident. The task would be, by propaganda, to convince a motorist that although he goes over 3 million cross-roads successfully, he has to watch for the one after that. He would say, "I have been over 3 million. Why should I watch for that one?" That makes it difficult to convince the motorist.
Nevertheless, we will do our best. We have one or two ideas that we are discussing with the Road Research Laboratory to find out why adults will not take to education like the youngsters do. We find out what youngsters are doing wrong, and why, and then we can have corrective lessons. Adults are much more difficult, as any Minister of the Crown knows too well.
Mr. C. Pannell: They even vote the wrong way.
Mr. Marples: I must not be tempted away from my argument, because I want now to come to the provisions of the Bill, which represent the third E—enforcement.

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We must take steps to try to get discipline into those motorists who indulge in dangerous behaviour. There is no doubt about it. I speak as a motorist, a paid-up member of one of the motoring organisations. I have been paid-up for many years. I have never been in arrear with my subscription and always disagree with the organisation's advice.
The Bill can be divided into three parts. The first deals with drink and driving, the second with the revised new penalties and the third part with miscellaneous provisions. I should like, first, to deal with drink and driving. Clauses 1 and 2 deal with the important question of driving and drink. I admit at once that no absolutely reliable data exists to show beyond doubt precisely what contribution alcohol makes to the road accident total. The Ministry's official statistics show that in about one half of 1 per cent. of fatal and serious accidents, drivers are reported as being intoxicated. This, however, is far from being the whole story, and for this reason. It relates only to cases in which an arrest has been made, or would have been made, but for the death or serious injury of the person concerned.
The Road Research Laboratory examined a sample of 376 fatal road accidents and showed that in 17 per cent. of all these cases—and, curiously enough, in 62 per cent. of all the accidents occurring after ten o'clock at night—someone involved had been drinking alcohol shortly before. Again, we had a special investigation into road accidents at Christmas, 1959, which showed that in at least 56 per cent. of the accidents one or more of the persons involved had been drinking alcohol not long before. This does not mean—
Mr. R. Gresham Cooke: Does my right hon. Friend agree that that 56 per cent. included pedestrians as well as drivers?
Mr. Marples: Certainly. I did not say anything else.
Mr. Ronald Bell (Buckinghamshire, South): Does it include passengers as well as drivers?
Mr. Marples: No. It includes drivers and pedestrians. It does not mean that alcohol was the cause of the accident.
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That is much more difficult to determine.
I am quite satisfied that alcohol is a significant factor in a far greater number of road accidents than appears from my Ministry's official statistics, and I admit it frankly. In 1960, the report was published of the special Committee appointed by the British Medical Association on "The Relation of Alcohol to Road Accidents." The Committee examined the available knowledge about the relation of alcohol to road accidents. It examined the results obtained by Professor Drew and his colleagues in investigating what they called "The Effect of Small Doses of Alcohol on a Skill Resembling Driving."
That Committee concluded, among other things, that
"relatively low concentrations of alcohol in the tissues cause a deterioration in driving performance and increase appreciably the likelihood of accident.…The existing legislation does not come into effective operation until a very much higher concentration of alcohol in the tissues has been reached".
The Committee said that the existing legislation was unsuccessful as a measure to prevent accidents caused by alcohol. It is against this background that the Government put forward their proposals for altering the law.
Clause 1 of the Bill therefore redefines the standard of unfitness to drive through drink. The present definition is not satisfactory, because it means being under the influence of drink to such an extent
"as to be incapable of having proper control of a motor vehicle".
I believe that in the minds of juries—and there are many in this House who have had experience of this in the courts—the words "incapable of having proper control" are associated with what the ordinary man in the street regards as being drunk and incapable. But it is clear from the British Medical Association and Drew reports that "drunk and incapable" represents a degree of intoxication far higher than that which leads to deterioration in driving skill. I am quite certain that people do not have to be drunk and incapable in the terminology of the ordinary man before they can do damage with a motor car.
Clause 1 therefore alters the definition of unfitness to drive to cover cases where there is a definite impairment of

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the driver's ability to drive properly even though he may not show any of the generally accepted clinical symptoms of drunkenness. To supplement the changes of definition in Clause 1, there are two further provisions in Clause 2. The first requires the court to have regard to any evidence about the quantity of alcohol in the body of an accused person. The Clause does not make a chemical test compulsory, but, for the first time, it gives statutory recognition to such tests and it requires the court to have regard to the evidence of the test. The nature of the test is not defined and the reason for that is that if scientific advances are made it may be possible to bring in other methods of testing for alcohol.
It would be necessary for the prosecution to satisfy the court about the validity of the tests used. The words are drawn wide enough to cover blood, urine or breath. Clause 2 provides that refusal without reasonable cause to provide a specimen for tests may be treated as supporting any evidence given by the prosecution or rebutting any evidence given by the defence in respect of the condition of the accused at the material time. We think that the combined effect of Clauses 1 and 2 will be to reduce the number of accidents which can be attributed to alcohol.
I have no doubt that in the debate and in Committee we shall have a great deal of discussion on these two Clauses. Some people will say that we have not gone far enough and others that we have gone too far. We believe that the proposals in the two Clauses represent the best provision that can be made at present, and I shall listen with great care and interest to the views of hon. Members on both sides.
As to the second category in the Bill, which is the category of penalty provisions—
Mr. R. J. Mellish: This is very important. Has the Minister anything in mind about the level of alcohol content for the purpose of information for the debate which will follow his speech? Is it expected that some standards for compulsory tests will be laid down and written into the Bill, or will it be left to the courts to decide this entirely for themselves?
Mr. Marples: The words in Clause 2 are wide enough to cover that. It was not the intention to include in the Bill at this stage a specific level of alcohol in the blood. We shall probably have a long discussion in Committee on this Clause, but we feel that if a level of alcohol in the blood were laid down it might be taken as a minimum to which everybody could go with safety.
In this part of the Bill there is a particular principle which we have in mind and which I should like to try to explain to the House. Whether the provisions in the Bill carry out that principle is another matter. We had in mind that there is a great deal of evidence that a very large number of accidents are caused not by lack of skill in driving, but by carelessness, impatience and discourtesy, by wanting to get on in a so-and-so hurry and never minding about anybody else. A man can press the accelerator and get an immense amount of power with small physical effort on his part. We want to try to stop this carelessness, especially among those people who persistently offend—not the man who makes a single mistake, but the man who goes on making mistakes.
These are the principles. We do not want to punish the man. I know the cry, "You are persecuting the motorist". I am a motorist, as I think most of us in the House are. I am quite prepared to accept these provisions. I do not think of persecution if I am asked to obey a reasonable law. We want to punish the persistent offender. We say that if a man commits three serious offences which affect safety on the road in three years the penalty should be automatic, but it should not be automatic for the first or second offence in the three years. It should be automatic when he goes on doing it.
The second principle that we have in mind is that if we have a penalty it must be effective. It is no good fining anybody who is very wealthy. What is the good of fining a man who has a lot of money £2 or £5? The thing that the motorist fears more than anything else is having his licence taken away. We have in mind, therefore, these two things—the persistent offender and the effective penalty.

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I am quite prepared to hear valid criticisms of these provisions either on Second Reading or in Committee. We have divided the penalties into three categories. The first category is in the first part of the First Schedule. The first offences are the most serious, and there are six offences in Part I of the First Schedule. This part includes manslaughter, causing death by dangerous driving, and so on, which I call the killer offence.
The second category is of offences which I consider involve dangerous behaviour, that is not just carelessness, recklessness or being inconsiderate or rude, but offences which make for danger to other people on the road. This is a different category from the third, which is a category of less serious offences by people who, for example, want to park somewhere which is inconvenient. The most serious are the first six offences and, for these, two things happen. First, there is obligatory disqualification. They must be disqualified if found guilty. The second thing is that there is obligatory endorsement of the licence for that offence.
The second category is that of dangerous behaviour, and here disqualification for that offence is at the discretion of the court. The court must decide whether to disqualify or not on that offence. Endorsement is compulsory, because that will chalk up against the driver the fact that he has been guilty of dangerous behaviour. In these two categories if there is a third conviction within three years there is obligatory disqualification for six months at least and for longer if the court wishes. This is provided for in Clause 3 (3).
When we catch the first and second-timer the case is dealt with on its merits. In the United States the third-timer is called "the third time loser", and under the criminal law there he is given a rather serious sentence. Under the Bill, on the third offence six months' disqualification is obligatory unless the court decides that there are special reasons for not disqualifying.
I ask hon. Members to put themselves in the position of the man who has committed two offences in two years, the first one being manslaughter, which comes in the first category, and on the second one he crosses the lights against
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the red. This very dangerous offence is often committed. If an hon. Member has two endorsements on his licence, I ask him whether he would drive more carefully if he knew that for the next offence he would be disqualified for at least six months, or whether he would drive more recklessly and impatiently. I think that he would try to drive carefully. That is the whole object of "totting up" the offences, because what we want to do is not to punish the driver, but to make him think and be careful.
Mr. William Hannan: What would the Minister say to a man who happened to be one of the 3,000 drivers who was deprived of a licence because of manslaughter, and then applied for the restoration of their licence and had the application granted? Would that persuade the man to avoid a further offence?
Mr. Marples: I think that in Clause 4 of the Bill we have made provisions to deal with that. It is very difficult, but I shall come to it later.
Broadly, the point is not to punish the offender as much as to make him think that it is not worth while taking a chance. That is what we are after. We want him to bear in mind the risk of disqualification, especially on this part of the law, which deals primarily with the safety provisions. As the amount of traffic will double over the next ten or fifteen years, nobody is entitled to assume that he has a divine right to a licence. A licence is a privilege for having the skill to drive properly, and the patience to drive carefully and with consideration for other road users. The curious thing is that drivers seem not to be afraid of losing their lives, but very scared of losing their licences.
In Part II of the First Schedule, 19 offences are included. I know that there will be many views about them. Some hon. Members will say that more offences should be included, while others will say that some should be excluded. I realise that, but these offences are classed as dangerous behaviour. There is no single category dealt with in Part II that has not been the subject of very close research. Every single offence in Part II of the First Schedule has been responsible for accidents. I have gone into

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this very carefully, and I have a list of them here.
First, there is the offence of failing to comply with a specified traffic sign. There was a case of a young man driving a car past traffic lights with the signals at red at three o'clock in the morning. He knew the road well, could see his way quite easily and had often disregarded the lights when they were showing red. In this case, he caused an ambulance which was on an emergency call to swerve and hit a lamp post, so that it could not continue and go to help the person it was going to help.
Mr. W. R. Rees-Davies: This is quite clearly—is it not?—dangerous driving in its own right? It is not the offence of disobeying the traffic signals. By ordinary common sense, this was dangerous driving, anyway.
Mr. Marples: No, I do not think so. So many people cross a junction when the lights are at red, and take a chance, because they think that they can get away with it. I do not want them to get away with it. That is what I am trying to stop. It is the innocent ones, like the people in the ambulance in this particular case, who get hurt. It is dangerous behaviour, and should be included in the "totting-up" offences. I disagree with my hon. Friend, for the first time since I have known him.
Then there is the offence of leaving a vehicle in a dangerous position. People often leave their cars and trucks round a bend, somewhere convenient for them, but which might be very dangerous to someone else. We had in my constituency of Wallasey the case of the 21-year-old son of an alderman, who, coming from Chester on a scooter, came round a left-hand bend and hit a truck which should not have been left there and was instantly killed. That was dangerous behaviour on the part of the man who left the vehicle there. It is no good anyone trying to tell me that this sort of thing is a trivial offence. It is not. It may be to a truck driver, but not to the man who hits the truck.
Another offence which I was very anxious to bring in was that of contravention of the construction and use
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regulations—offence No. 19 in the Schedule. A car had its near-side door kept shut by a piece of string. The string broke while the car was moving, and the door swung open and struck a pedal cyclist. That is more dangerous behaviour than anything I can think of, as a cyclist. It has happened to me many times. People do not look behind before getting out of their cars and very often hit a cyclist. I am sure that hon. Members on both sides of the House would not like me to be hurt in that way, not even my hon. Friend the Member for the Isle of Thanet (Mr. Rees-Davies). I am aware that there will be many offences which will be thought of as technical and trivial. Of course they are to the man who commits them, but not to the people who get hurt. That is the difference.
Now I come to another offence—speeding. I will not speak of all the other offences in Part II. Speeding was deliberately put into this category. I hear my hon. Friend the Member for the Isle of Thanet (Mr. Rees-Davies) say "Quite wrong." If he will listen to me, I will try to convert him, as I have converted him before. He never minds listening to reason, when he has made up his mind, because then it can do no harm.
Speeding has been put in because there is concrete evidence that higher speeds mean more accidents and more serious accidents. Let us look at the facts. In accidents occurring in built-up areas, more pedestrians are killed than any other users of the road: in 1960, 2,708 pedestrians, 1,351 motor cyclists and people driving scooters, and 680 people driving cars. Thus, there were four times as many pedestrians killed as car drivers. It is clear that when, in 1934, we introduced the speed limit, it was followed by the greatest improvement in the road accident figures in the history of this country.
I am certain that at the moment the speed limits are flouted, especially in London, and by a large margin. I know that they are flouted. I will take any hon. Member to the Great West Road or Western Avenue, where he will find that we shall be passed on the inside and outside by people going faster than 40 m.p.h. I never go above the speed

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limit—at any rate, not since I became Minister of Transport, because I am terrified of the deterrent penalty that would follow.
On Sunday, I went to the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Buckinghamshire, South (Mr. R. Bell), to Beaconsfield, quite near his house, and when driving on Western Avenue on the outside lane, at 40 m.p.h., we were repeatedly passed on the inside. Other people passed by, flashing their lights on and sounding their hooters when they passed on the inside, which they should not have done. I will take my hon. Friend there, so that he can see for himself. If there is to be a speed limit, it should be obeyed.
Mr. C. Pannell: By what right was the right hon. Gentleman going at 40 m.p.h. on the fast lane? He was asking for it. They had a right to pass him.
Mr. Marples: It happened to be the fast lane, and 40 m.p.h. is the legal speed limit there. I do not like to go beyond 40 m.p.h.
Mr. Pannell: Yes, but the right hon. Gentleman was on the offside.
Mr. Marples: It does not make any difference. If 40 m.p.h. is the legal limit, nobody ought to go faster. However, they were passing me.
If we do have a speed limit, and Parliament has to make up its mind about this, two things should happen. First, it should be a realistic speed limit. There is no doubt about that at all. Secondly, it should be enforced, because if it is not enforced it brings the law into disrepute. All those people who were passing me on the inside should not have been travelling at more than 40 m.p.h.
Mr. Ronald Bell rose—
Mr. Marples: I shall not give way. My hon. Friend the Member for Buckinghamshire, South is bound to get in and make a contribution to this debate. I shall listen carefully to what he says, but I could write now what he will say. I know, because he represents my motoring association.
It is not right that the motorist himself should judge the speed limit, because he is only one of many road users What
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about the very young people, who have had it explained to them in school that they are entitled to expect cars to go at no more than 30 m.p.h. where there is that limit. What about the very old people, the feeble people and those with failing eyesight? They should be able to expect that cars will obey a speed limit; otherwise, they cannot hope to survive. The longer the stopping distance, the less margin of safety there is. If one goes at 50 or 60 miles an hour, one has not the margin of safety when a child runs into the road which one has at 30 miles an hour.
I hate to recommend it, but the Fabian pamphlet "Road Safety", by Barbara Preston, gave figures of stopping margins. It said that a speed of 30 miles an hour meant that the thinking distance was 30 feet and the overall stopping distance 90 feet; at 40 miles an hour the thinking distance rose from 30 to 40 feet and the stopping distance from 90 to 148 feet; at 50 miles an hour the thinking distance rose to 50 feet and the overall stopping distance to 218 feet.
The margin of error is less if one keeps speed low. Therefore, this provision has been put in purposely. But there must be a review of speed limits. It is intended to complete a review of speed limits on trunk roads by the beginning of April, and it should, therefore, be possible to have new limits in force by early summer. The local authorities have been asked to complete a review of the limits on their roads by the end of next December. It may take some time to consider and approve new proposals, but most should be in force by the early summer of 1963. We hope, by mid-1963, to have put all limits in built-up areas on a realistic basis. Then, I hope, enforcement will be effective.
Mr. Eric Johnson: My right hon. Friend has just said that speed limits are to be realistic. Will he have powers under the Bill to make local authorities comply with a reasonable speed limit? In some cases, 40 miles an hour is reasonable while a limit of 30 miles an hour is absurd.
Mr. Marples: My hon. Friend will see such provisions in Clauses 8 to 11. They provide new procedures for establishing new limits which will be much more

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workable than the hotchpotch arrangements under existing legislation.
One characteristic of the new provisions is that they can be used to impose any kind of speed limits, whether 20, 30 or 40 miles an hour. But I do not intend to approve the introduction of a wide range of different limits. It is my intention that there should be a 30 miles an hour limit for most urban areas, and that this and the 40 miles an hour limit, where it is appropriate, shall remain as the chief permanent limits. There are special places where other limits may be appropriate, perhaps along sea fronts, but it is the intention to stick to existing types of limit in built-up areas.
I have spoken for longer than I wished, because of interruptions, but, in conclusion, I remind the House that, in 1960, 6,970 people were killed on the roads. In 1961, there was 8 per cent. more traffic on the roads, but fewer were killed—6,908. So, with 8 per cent. more traffic the deaths were 62 fewer than in 1960.
I do not claim that that is a great achievement, but it is a step in the right direction. It is the first occasion since 1954—apart from 1956, when we had petrol rationing and restrictions on motoring—that fatal road casualties in any year have been less than in the previous year. Looking back a little further, we find that this is only the third occasion since 1935 that there has been such a reduction while there has been no restriction on the use of cars.
When we turn to casualties as distinct from deaths, we find that, in 1961, with 8 per cent. more traffic, we had ½percent. more casualties, so all the work done by local authorities, the teachers, the police and the safety committees has borne fruit. Their work, together with the propaganda in the popular Press and elsewhere, has made an impact on the public mind. If the casualties in 1961 had shown the same relationship to traffic as in the previous four years, there would have been 700 more deaths than there were and nearly 30,000 more casualties. I would like to pay tribute to those who give up so much time voluntarily to do this sort of work.
We have all got to accept some sacrifices and some discipline. The
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motorists, the pedestrians, the professional drivers—all of us have to sacrifice some convenience in order to save lives. This is a very difficult and appalling problem. I must confess that I find it very saddening to see the figures of the casualties coming into the Ministry every month while knowing that there is very little I can do about it because of the element of a driver's personal responsibility when he gets behind a wheel.
We must press on and do all we can to try to segregate the pedestrian from the motor car, and also press on with our road engineering. The Bill will only be a part of the whole operation. There are many other things to do. It is because I think that the Bill will play its part that I ask the House to give it a Second Reading.
4.55 p.m.
Mr. G. R. Strauss: It is a pleasant change to be able to welcome a Bill produced by the Minister of Transport. Normally his Bills provoke the most heated controversy and opposition. But, on this occasion, I am sure that we can all say that we give the Bill very warm approval. I welcome it particularly because, for two years, I was closely associated with the problem of road safety when I served at the Ministry of Supply and was chairman of the Departmental committee on road safety. I then took part in a great many activities dealing with this problem, and ever since then I have been very much interested in all its many aspects.
I say this to the right hon. Gentleman quite sincerely. He has paid tribute to the many people and organisations, the local authorities, the police and others, who, in the last few years, have helped to keep down the accident rate. I pay tribute, as well, to the right hon. Gentleman himself for his activities in these matters. I hope that remark will not be taken by my right hon. and hon. Friends as expressing my approval of the right hon. Gentleman generally, but in this respect I believe that he has shown great energy and has done a good job of work. If he only confined himself to this aspect of his Department's activities, it would be a good thing for every one concerned.
All our experience of measures to combat the road perils has shown that, although there is general support for

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action to be taken to stop the toll of deaths and injuries on the roads, every specific proposal put forward is highly controversial. The controversy is not usually on party lines but is fought with great vigour by a number of vested interests. I do not mean only commercial interests, who are often active in this matter, but also all sorts of associations of road users, who are up in arms at the prospect of some cherished freedom of their members being restricted, although it may in fact be the freedom to kill themselves.
Therefore, the right hon. Gentleman must expect that his proposals in the Bill, although they generally receive the support of the House, will be discussed in Committee and strongly criticised, and he must also expect a number of other proposals which are not in the Bill to be brought forward, and leading to pretty lengthy discussion. I wonder how he proposes to take this Bill in Committee and when he expects to do so. The last Road Traffic Act, I remember, took about six months in Committee, although everybody was most anxious to get it through at the first possible moment.
Time is getting on, and we are in the middle of another highly controversial Bill in which the Minister is engaged. Can he tell us later when he expects this Bill to be considered in Committee? We are at some advantage on this occasion. The Bill has been pre-digested. In fact, it has been twice pre-digested in another place. Moreover, the Bill has been improved as a result of its consideration in another place. I hope that no one will think that, by that remark, I am expressing support for the other place as at present constituted, as that would be entirely wrong. However, the Bill has been scrutinised in the other place and many of its defects have been eliminated.
I wish to make two very short general comments before I deal with the contents of the Bill. The incidence of death and injury on the roads, which is already appalling, is bound to increase. A calculation based on the number of vehicles on the road at present and on the rate of increase in accidents makes it pretty certain that during the 1960s about 1 million people will either be killed or seriously injured on the roads.
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That is a dreadful total, but it is a fact which is not appreciated by most people. The extent of road accidents does not arouse anything like the strong reaction among members of the public or even among members of local authorities that it should do.
I sometimes think that there might be a sharper national reaction if this dreadful toll of road injury and death took place in a small number of spectacular disasters. But it is made up of isolated incidents, spread throughout the country, which make no direct impact on the public or stir their imagination.
My other general point has been made by the Minister, but I should like to emphasise it. Ghastly as the total of road accidents is, we know positively that the extent of road accidents can be materially affected by action taken by the Government, by local authorities and by others. The Minister has quoted many examples of successful action being taken, but I hope that it is appreciated by everyone that the extent to which we succeed in reducing road accidents—we cannot eliminate them altogether—depends not only on the enthusiasm and keenness of local authorities and others interested in this matter, but on the amount of money spent on these activities.
I want to make only a few brief comments on some of the more controversial proposals in the Bill. These comments are entirely personal. My hon. Friends may disagree with me on many of the points that I wish to make. There is no general party agreement on these matters, and I hope that if we on this side express different points of view about the value of certain of the Bill's provisions we shall not be told that there is another split in the Labour Party. I trust that there will be a split on both sides of the House on these matters, which should be considered objectively free from party association.
The Minister spoke at some length about the automatic disqualification provisions in the Bill. I appreciate that there is a case for this when three offences are committed within three years. But there is also a case against it which should be considered, and it is this. In principle, automatic penalties are always questionable forms of penalty and should be avoided where possible.

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First, it is doubtful to what extent we should remove from magistrates and judges discretion in these matters. Secondly, it frequently happens that when an automatic and harsh punishment for a certain offence is laid down the accused person is acquitted instead of being found guilty because the jury, the magistrate or judge, is unwilling to impose for the offence the heavy penalty which the law says must automatically flow.
This provision that "special reasons" must be given by magistrates or judges when they do not think that the automatic application of the heavy penalty laid down is desirable is also doubtful and clumsy, and will lead to all sorts of arguments, disagreements and legal wrangles. It is almost certain that courts in one part of the country will apply it differently from courts in other parts of the country, which will create great unfairness. Unless the Minister makes a definite statement about this or perhaps puts something in the Bill to indicate what is meant by "special reasons", this provision will lead to confusion and uncertainty.
There is another reason why I think automatic punishments are questionable. The hardship placed by an automatic disqualification on a professional driver is so much more serious than it is on the ordinary driver, and, indeed, it is unfair. He is driving on the roads for perhaps eight or nine hours a day and his opportunity of infringing the law, although it may be to a minor extent, is far greater than it is in the case of the ordinary motorist. If he does infringe the law, the penalty is much greater. Whereas the penalty is only an inconvenience to the ordinary driver, it may be professional death to the man who drives for his living.
Mr. Cole: I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman will not overlook the fact that the professional driver should be more skilled and knowledgeable on the road than the ordinary driver.
Mr. Strauss: I accept that. I have no hesitation in saying that when a professional driver commits one or more serious offences his driving licence should be taken away. The Minister has made out his case on the assumption
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that the three offences far which a driver can receive a six months' disqualification are in fact all serious ones.
In a way, almost every offence is serious, but let us consider what could happen to a man under the Bill as it stands. Suppose that he has left his vehicle in a position which he did not consider dangerous but which the police did consider dangerous. It may be a serious offence or it may not, but he is "had up" and fined. Within six months, he may exceed the speed limit of 30 miles per hour, which, as the Minister inferred, very many people do. Again, he is charged and convicted. Perhaps 2½ years later he drives a vehicle which is not properly loaded and which the magistrate may consider is dangerous, or perhaps some accessory on his vehicle is not in good condition. Those are offences which apply to the three year period. If he is found guilty of one of these offences, he is disqualified for six months.
For these reasons, I doubt the wisdom this matter of automatic disqualification. Although I realise that there is a case for it, I am not sure whether, as the Bill stands, it is not too comprehensive and whether the offences involving disqualification are not too wide.
Mr. Geoffrey Wilson: Has the right hon. Gentleman noticed the evidence given by Brigadier Stoney of the Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents to the effect that any of the one-fifth of professional drivers who enter the National Safe Driving Competition would have on average to drive for 700 years before they were convicted three times?
Mr. Strauss: The House will be grateful for that intervention. I repeat that the views I express on this and other matters are my personal views, and I know that they are not shared by all my colleagues.
Another matter of principle which arises, and about which the right hon. Gentleman spoke, is the new provisions about drink and the alcohol tests to be applied under this Bill. I think that most of us—and certainly I do—fully support the use of the word "impaired" in the new definition of unfitness to drive.

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As regards tests, my view is that the right hon. Gentleman's suggestions are at least in the right direction. It seems to me wholly desirable that such tests should be made, and when a test is not made because the offender, or the alleged offender, refuses to allow it, it is right that this fact should be brought up in court as evidence against him, which, of course, he can refute if he so desires.
The argument some lawyers put forward—and I understand it—is that it is contrary to the principles of our law that an accused person should be penalised for not providing evidence which might incriminate him, and that this Bill offends that principle. I believe that this view is of secondary importance compared with the great social evil resulting from the extent to which drink causes accidents. I therefore think that the Minister is right in saying that refusal to submit to alcohol tests is something which can be brought up in court against the accused.
There are many people who go further and say that these alcohol tests should be compulsory and that instead of their being just used as supporting evidence in a case when a man is had up for driving where his ability to do so is impaired, the consumption of alcohol above a certain degree should itself be an offence, however well he may be driving at the time, as is the case in Scandinavia, Germany and Switzerland.
We should be moving in that directtion, and one of these days Parliament will, I believe, accept that principle. There are strong arguments for saying that anyone who drives on the roads should not have consumed more than a certain quantity of drink and that if he has he should, even if he is still driving perfectly well, be convicted for that offence. I think that this more than anything else, far more than the Minister's present provisions, would reduce the amount of alcohol drunk before driving. I think that the right hon. Gentleman's proposals in the Bill are in the right direction, and personally I would be prepared to go further.
I come now to a point on which I disagree with the Minister, and this is his blanket proposal to increase penalties
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all round. Every time a Minister introduces a Bill to reduce road accidents he seems to think it necessary to increase maximum penalties for every possible offence without discrimination and that this will have some effect. We know that it has no effect whatever and that the magistrates impose penalties which they think right and hardly ever impose the possible maximum.
I do not want to speak at length, so I will like to give one example to show how nonsensical are these proposals in the Bill. At present a man who is had up for careless driving is liable, on the first offence, to a penalty of £40. In only 1,000 of 1 per cent. of the cases which have been brought up in the last few years where a man has been accused of careless driving has the maximum penalty been imposed. Yet the Minister proposes that it should now be raised from £40 to £100. Such an empty gesture brings the law and Parliament into contempt.
I suggest, moreover, that such a step is indefensible, in that if a man commits an offence that warrants a fine of £100 it is no longer merely an offence of careless driving. I therefore suggest that we should carefully consider the increases in penalties proposed in the Bill. We should be more reasonable and not put up the penalties irrespective of their merits and irrespective of the attention which magistrates and judges have paid to them in the past.
I cannot understand why the Minister has reduced from 17 to 16 the age at which a person can drive a tractor. I know that this driving is confined to driving to or from a testing station, but the proposal seems pointless, and I am not aware of any explanation for it.
There are one or two other points I want to raise concerning matters which are not in the Bill but which, I think, the Committee will have to consider carefully. The first concerns motor cyclists. We know that there is a particularly high accident rate amongst motor cyclists. Not only do they kill and injure themselves, but they kill and injure pedestrians and other users of the road. We know that motor cyclists are far more prone to accidents than any other road users.

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The figures show that the chances of a motor cyclist being involved in an accident are twenty-three times greater than that of a motorist. This figure is calculated on the basis of vehicle miles. There are two other figures which are relevant to this point. First, one out of nineteen motor cyclists is injured every year, and one out of twelve motor cyclists under twenty was injured in 1958.
Mr. C. Pannell: Injured or killed.
Mr. Strauss: Yes. Are we to do nothing about this? I suggest that we should. Motor cyclists will be angry if we restrict their freedom, but they should not have such unlimited freedom to kill or damage themselves and kill or damage other people. We know two things: first, that one of the reasons for this high rate of accidents among motor cyclists is excessive speed. We have police evidence of that. Secondly, that the younger the motor cyclist the higher the accident rate. There is a steep graph which shows this.
There is one other figure I want to quote to the House, which is that in 5·5 per cent. of all fatal and serious accidents a learner-driver on a motor cycle, or a scooter, or a moped was involved. They were responsible for one in twenty of all accidents on the road. I suggest that the House should seriously consider whether the time has not arrived when we should say that training centres should be set up—I know this will involve some expense, but it will save many lives—and that all motor cyclists should pass through a training centre before getting a licence.
Mr. Rees-Davies: I am entirely with the right hon. Gentleman, but would he agree that if a motor cyclist—not necessarily the moped cyclist—had to pass a more advanced test of motoring skill before he got a licence that would meet the case without the necessity of setting up specific training centres?
Mr. Glenvil Hall (Colne Valley): Would it not be a good thing in addition to make certain that no motor cycle could go at more than a definite speed?
Mr. Strauss: I was coming to the point made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Colne Valley (Mr. Glenvil Hall). It may be that the suggestion
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of the hon. Member for the Isle of Thanet (Mr. Rees-Davies) would meet the case, but I would prefer training centres where applicants for a licence would receive proper instruction and be taught good road behaviour. One or the other is necessary.
I agree with my right hon. Friend the Member for Colne Valley that there is a strong case for saying that motor cycles, which are particularly dangerous—and we have proof that many of them go far too fast and are the cause of many accidents—should be restricted to a special overall speed limit, which I suggest should be about 70 miles per hour. This restriction would have to apply to the motorways as well, as the striking fact has emerged that whereas motor cycles represent only 2 per cent. of the total vehicles using the M.1, they are involved in 16 per cent. of the accidents there.
I now turn to the question of driving tests. Magistrates have power to disqualify a convicted offender until he has passed a test. Something more than that is necessary. Many people who have been driving for a long time develop bad habits, of which they are often totally unaware. It is, therefore, desirable that magistrates should have the power to order offenders to take a test without the more serious penalty of disqualification. As a result of some slight carelessness a person may have been involved in an accident, and a magistrate should be entitled to tell him, "I shall not disqualify you so long as you pass a test within the next three or four months, but if you do not pass the test within that period you will be disqualified."
The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport (Mr. John Hay): Perhaps I can prevent the right hon. Member going wrong on this point. I understand that provisions already exist under the present law which permit a magistrate to order a driving test to be taken.
Mr. Strauss: Without disqualification?
Mr. Hay: Yes.
Mr. Strauss: If that is so, I am very pleased, and I shall not pursue the point.
The other point is an old one, which has been raised on many occasions in

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the past. It is the question whether it is not desirable that every driver, upon reaching a certain age, should be asked to pass periodic tests. I suggest the age of 70. After that age it is surely not unreasonable to be asked to pass a test at certain intervals.
The Minister has told us that the Bill deals with only one aspect of his road safety activities, and I therefore ask him to provide us with any late information he has about compulsorily equipping new cars with safety belts. I am rather worried about this. He has been enthusiastic about these belts, and their usefulness has been proved. On many occasions he has exhorted the driving public to use them; and I have used such a belt for many years. Nevertheless, I remember that although a previous Minister of Transport, speaking at the Dispatch Box and elsewhere, had told us for many years how important it was that vehicles should be tested after they had reached a certain age—and provision for this was made in the 1956 Act—it took five years before anything happened, although everybody knew that such testing would materially reduce accidents.
In those circumstances I am concerned lest, in spite of the Minister's words and his obvious interest in the matter, a very long delay will occur, perhaps even as long as the delay that occurred in the case of vehicle testing, before it is made compulsory to equip all cars with safety belt devices. I should like an assurance from the Parliamentary Secretary on that point.
As the Minister has said, this Bill is only one aspect of the road safety activities of the Government. He has mentioned others which I regard as being as important as, if not more important than, the legislative provisions of the Bill. I want to comment upon two of them.
The first is enforcement. This is not merely a question of providing strong penalties for offenders; an even more important factor is the supply of sufficient numbers of police on the roads—especially motor cycle patrols—to ensure that speed limits are observed. In many places speed limits are ignored by motorists because they believe that they will not be found out. It is not the fear
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of punishment which springs first to their minds. If there were a near-certainty of their being caught speed limits would have a much more deterrent effect upon motorists and motor cyclists.
There is evidence of the striking effect of motor cycle patrols on roads which carry a great deal of traffic. It has been demonstrated that they keep down accidents on those roads. Some remarkable experiments have been conducted. If more police could be provided to enforce speed limits—especially motor cycle patrols—we should see a dramatic reduction of accident rate. Although this is not a matter of direct Ministerial responsibility, I hope that he will regard it as a very important aspect of his general safety campaign.
My last point concerns education. Safety education in the schools is very well done, but there is also the form of education carried out by the Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents in its yearly campaigns. The Society does good work, but I think it could be very much better. I have not been very impressed by the campaigns it has waged. Its slogans are not wisely chosen. The exhortation to "Be a Better Driver" does not impress itself on anybody. Everybody believes that he is a good driver, and such a campaign is pointless. Last year's slogan was "Keep Alive". [HON. MEMBERS: "Mind than Child."] That was a very good slogan, I agree.
These campaigns should be concentrated on special subjects, such as "Mind that child", instead of being diffused, as they normally are. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman and the Society will consider the advisability of using such posters as the "Widow" poster, which was brought out when I was the responsible Minister. I chose that poster myself, on expert advice, and although all the Ministerial colleagues whom I consulted told me that I should not do it, they left the decision to me. I think that everybody agrees that that poster had a marked effect because of its shocking element.
It is no good having posters which merely bear general slogans or exhortations. The most effective posters are those which have an element of shock and which immediately bring home to

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the person seeing them the personal nature of danger on the roads, and the necessity for taking greater care.
I regard myself as a careful driver, but it is my experience—and it may be that of other hon. Members—that when I pass the scene of an accident I drive even more carefully for the next half hour than before. I have been brought up sharp against the perils of the road. I may have seen an ambulance dealing with the injured. Such an experience brings an immediate reaction of shock to the mind of the road user. That has a desirable effect, and it is a far greater deterrent than anodyne appeals or exhortations. The work of the Royal Society, and education generally, is exceedingly important, because it affects the behaviour of normally good drivers.
This Bill seeks to provide a stronger deterrent to people who often drive carelessly or badly. We want to get them off the roads, and in order to do this the Minister proposes new penalties. These are highly desirable, and although all the Bill's provisions will have to be considered very carefully and in great detail in Committee, I can tell the right hon. Gentleman—although it is probably unnecessary for me to do so—that we shall give the Bill the most sympathetic response and discuss it in Committee with the object of remedying any defects and passing it into law as quickly as possible.
A litle time ago the Minister of Health announced in the House a large programme of hospital construction. Let it not be said of this generation, as the historian Michelet said of the ancien régime before the revolution in France, "They built hospitals and filled them".
5.30 p.m.
Sir Richard Nugent: I am glad to have the opportunity to add my word of support for the Bill, and particularly do I join with the right hon. Member for Vauxhall (Mr. Strauss), who has just given his support to the Bill so felicitously, in the tribute which he paid to my right hon. Friend the Minister for the very enterprising work which he is doing in this field. I should also like to express my gratitude to another place which deliberated so long and expertly
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on this matter. It has been most interesting to read the reports of their Lordships' debates.
The principal effect of the Bill is, of course, to stiffen road traffic discipline. There are two innovations of primary importance. The first is with regard to the consumption of drink and the taking of drugs. Clauses 1 and 2 give a new and closer definition of unfitness to drive through the taking of drink or drugs. The courts are now to have regard to the amount of alcohol in the body of the accused. I must confess that I have been a reluctant convert to the justification for this, but I am now convinced on the point. My right hon. Friend the Minister gave some facts and figures today as indications that drink does contribute to many more accidents than are officially reported as due to that cause.
I feel satisfied that the right approach to this matter is being adopted in that the blood test which is to be introduced is to be a piece of supporting evidence to the main evidence, which will be the behaviour of the driver of the car. I hope that when my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary replies to the debate he will re-emphasise that that is, in fact, the case and that we shall not be faced with a position—although the right hon. Gentleman thinks that we might move towards this situation—where drink traps are set up after closing hours at night with the police stopping cars and testing the drivers' blood for alcohol. That would be highly objectionable to us as a people. I am sure that it would not be acceptable.
The second innovation of great importance is, of course, in Clause 3, which will oblige courts to impose the penalty of disqualification much more often than they do at present. Once again, I think that this is right in principle. I agree with my right hon. Friend the Minister that fines are not particularly effective with some people, and I am sure that it is right for us to try to encourage the concept that the driving licence is a privilege and that we ought to cherish it as such. There will be a discussion in Committee on the Second Schedule, but, on the general principle, I support it.
I wish in the few minutes that I propose to detain the House to say a word or two about the broad philosophy of

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the Bill, which is, of course, to make stricter law and heavier penalties for driving offences. I think it right that we in the House should bear in mind that when we are considering a law of this kind, which is a law against the subject, for the purpose of strengthening it, we must keep in mind that government in this country is by consent and that this Bill cannot succeed without the general backing of the nation, both collectively and individually. We are, in fact, well on the way to becoming a nation of drivers, and no doubt in the next ten years or so everybody will be a driver. Therefore, we must be frank with ourselves on this issue.
We as Members of Parliament are far ahead of public opinion in our understanding and appreciation of this problem. I have debated this subject on many occasions with right hon. and hon. Members whom I see here this afternoon, and in terms of the general public outside we are pretty well experts. We can see the thing objectively, but the man in the street is really miles behind us. What we are going to do if we put the Bill on the Statute Book, which I hope we shall, is to make that gap even wider.
I will give the House two examples from the courts which I think will drive home my point. In 1958, the last year for which we have the figures, in only 55 per cent. of cases where people were prosecuted for driving under the influence of drink did juries convict. On the other hand, magistrates convicted in 93 per cent. of such cases. That is a straight indication that public opinion just does not view with the same gravity this offence which more enlightened and expert minds do.
The other piece of court statistics which I should like to give the House is in respect of the 1960 figures for disqualification. In only 56 per cent. of the cases charging dangerous driving were the offenders disqualified. In one category of dangerous driving the Bill makes disqualification automatic and in another discretionary. In cases of careless driving in 1960, only 6 per cent. had disqualification imposed. As the House knows, this Bill will make disqualification discretionary in cases of careless driving, but where there have been three endorsements it will be automatic.
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Apart from what we know, I think that this gives us direct evidence of how very far public opinion is behind the minds of those of us here not only in the Government but in Parliament generally in dealing with this desperate problem of road safety. If the gap is widened, all that will happen, in practice, is that the police will be even more reluctant to prosecute and the courts, as the right hon. Gentleman so rightly said, even more reluctant to convict. Therefore, we shall not be making any progress at all.
1 am sure that hon. Members have in mind the fact that eventually we here, as practical men, are obliged to face the reality that the law must, broadly, conform with the behaviour of the people. Last year we put on the Statute Book the Betting and Licensing Act which relaxed the law in regard to these matters in order to make it conform with the lives of the people. Many of us may have been reluctant to see it go that way.
I would remind the House that these are the realities of life. Here is a case where we do not intend to see that happen. It would be intolerable to have to relax the law on road traffic when we are faced with the loss of life and limb which is now going on. Therefore, the House is faced, and my right hon. Friend in particular is faced, with a very special responsibility to find some way of getting public opinion to catch up with the relatively expert opinion of Parliamentarians and Ministers if we are to make the law effective.
Exhortation, of course, to which reference was made by the right hon. Member for Vauxhall and by my right hon. Friend the Minister, has a part to play and is very valuable. On the right hon. Gentleman's point about the widow picture, I would say that these shock tactics have a value but that they can only be used occasionally for very soon they lose their force. As a humble Vice-President of the Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents I know how difficult it is to pick a winner every year. "Mind that Child" was, of course, a winner. The experts and the honorary workers there try their utmost to make their campaign effective, and, overall, they do a great deal of valuable work. But exhortation alone will not do the

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job. What is wanted is a fresh scientific approach, and my right hon. Friend is already doing a good deal in that direction.
There are one or two points that I should like to make in that connection. There are three stages in connection with any law or regulation concerned with road traffic. The first need is to carry out an accurate survey and to get the facts so that one knows what one is dealing with. The second is to have a scientific study in order to design the correct solution. The third is to have an imaginative campaign, to put it over and to get it into the minds of the people generally.
My right hon. Friend gave us some figures about his work in London, and very good they are. He has been doing a splendid job there, and I think he is absolutely right about it. First of all, one must have an origin and destination survey, and then one must apply the best possible practices of traffic engineering to give one fresh patterns of traffic. This sort of thing is already beginning to show great advantages in smoother and safer traffic flows. All that is absolutely right.
The provision in Clause 3 and the Second Schedule for three endorsements to lead to disqualification is also psychologically right. There we are dealing with drivers who are potentially dangerous and keep on committing certain offences. I agree absolutely with my right hon. Friend that after a man has two endorsements chalked up in his driving licence he will be very much more cautious for the next two or three years. I think that this is the kind of psychological approach which is absolutely right in practice in order to get the mind of the motorist moving in the same direction as we are trying to move ourselves.
I will illustrate my point by reference to speed limits. Clauses 8–11 give the Minister fresh power with regard to speed limits. My right hon. Friend has already told us that he has now initiated a complete review of speed limits and that local authorities will be doing the same. I am certain that this is right. To start with, I am absolutely convinced that a speed limit is a very valuable road safety device—I am entirely in favour of it—but at the present time we are all aware
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that our roads are smothered with 30 m.p.h. speed limits, the great majority of which are simply not being observed at all. Far from doing good, this is doing positive harm, because it "debases the currency". So it is right to review the whole matter in order to get the speed limits right and to remove the impression now in the mind of the average driver that all speed limits are restrictive to him. There is no need for them to be. Many of them are, of course, based on old-fashioned prejudices and the idea that speed is a crime, and so on. We require an objective review.
I would remind the House what the right hon. Member for Vauxhall and his hon. Friends did when they were in power with regard to the pedestrian crossings. They were very brave about it, for it must have been a very difficult thing to do. They recognised that there were so many pedestrian crossings in the 1940s that they simply were not being observed by anybody. So they reviewed the situation and drastically cut them down—by about two-thirds if my memory serves me correctly. They said, "We will make the third that remain really safe and effective." That was the beginning of making pedestrian crossings really safe. The same kind of drastic treatment must be applied to speed limits if we are to get from them the value that we ought to have. I am not suggesting that they should be cut by two-thirds. I mean that they should be made realistic.
There must again be a three-stage operation. First of all, we must survey the speed limits and get the facts. In my judgment, a survey in this context means that we should send out our experts to find out the average speed of the vehicles on the road—the average speed of 85 per cent. of the traffic. That is the figure normally applied; the 15 per cent. higher speed vehicles are ignored. When we have discovered the average speed of the main body of traffic—the 85 per cent.—we should then set that as the speed limit for the road. In the middle of towns the speed limit will continue to be 30 m.p.h., as my right hon. Friend said; outside towns and as one gets towards the open country it will be 40 m.p.h., and in some cases, possibly, 50 m.p.h. would be justified or we might remove the limit altogether.

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Having done this, it is then right that we should have—I absolutely agree with the right hon. Gentleman—enough uniformed police, either mobile or stationary, on the road so that drivers generally realise that if they keep on breaking the speed limit they will be caught and will be in trouble. An essential part of this is to remove speed limits which are not really wanted and bring them up to a realistic level.
The third thing that we have to do is to go to the driving public, whether private or commercial drivers, and tell them that the speed limits have been scientifically set at the average speed for the road and that they are reasonable speed limits, and ask them to co-operate with us. The drivers should be told that the limits are set not to restrict them but for their benefit and that they will restrict only those who want to go unreasonably fast. I am certain that both the private and the commercial motoring organisations would then be willing to use all their influence to ensure that the speed limits were complied with. At the present time we do not get co-operation about speed limits because they are regarded almost universally as being restrictive.
Traffic engineers have a big, essential part to play in this. I use the illustration of speed limits to show the absolute necessity for a dispassionate, scientific approach to make these things realistic in three stages. Then we shall have something which will enable us to say to the public, "It is up to you to co-operate", and I believe that we shall get that co-operation.
Perhaps I might mention here that last month I joined the committee of the R.A.C., and I shall certainly use my best influence there—I see my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport looking at me rather doubtfully—to ensure that what I am referring to is adopted by that body.
On the question of putting over the Minister's story to the public and making plain to the public what his regulations mean and what they are for, whether they concern speed limits, one-way traffic or waiting regulations, I suggest that, just as he has a traffic engineering unit now to redesign traffic movement
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and to get it on a scientific basis, he also needs experts who will find new and better methods of getting over to the public the fact that these things are being done for their benefit and are not done restrictively. This may mean personal consultation with shopkeepers, motoring organisations, and so on. I am sure that my right hon. Friend is aware of the great ingenuity which the traffic commissioners in the United States use to get their story over. They spare no effort to make it clear in the minds of the public that what is being done is for the benefit of everybody. This is done with the object of getting the co-operation of all.
My right hon. Friend said how well the schools have done with the help of the Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents, and I was glad to hear him say it. They started by teaching the children kerb drill. That has been very good. The children have become safe pedestrians—better than most adults. Now we have the child cyclists' scheme. I had something to do with introducing it, and I am glad to say that it is a very good scheme. Now we have safe child cyclists.
But we must go one further than that. I have said that before ten years are out practically all the nation will be drivers. We ought to be thinking now of traffic training in the schools. That is the stage at which children learn, and learn for good. If they could be taught driving in the schools they would be good. I appreciate that it is not easy to put something else into the curriculum, but, after all, school training for children equips them for life. If we could in the schools teach them to drive so that we could equip them to live we should have given them something worth while.
Consequently, I urge my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to talk to his right hon. Friend about this. I urge them to have another go at the schools. I tried to do something about it when I was at the Ministry, but I did not get anywhere with it. I am sure that we ought to have another go. Ministers ought to put their heads together and say, "We must find a means whereby all children have a chance while they are at school to learn the rudiments of safe driving, for then we shall have taught them something worth while."

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These are my thoughts on this very valuable Measure which will make a useful contribution to road safety. I am sure that my right hon. Friend is right in bringing it before the House. There is a number of details that we shall want to discuss. I want to leave the thought with the House that there is a dangerous gap between us, the experts here, and public opinion. It is a gap that is tending to widen, and it throws enormous responsibility on my right hon. Friend to find fresh methods with which to educate and inform the public that what is being done is for their benefit and safety so that they will co-operate. Unless we succeed in doing that, this Measure will not help road traffic and road safety in the way that we want, and we shall to a large extent be frustrated. With this thought, I have much pleasure in supporting the Bill.
5.51 p.m.
Mr. Glenvil Hall: Like other hon. Members present, I have followed the remarks of the right hon. Member for Guildford (Sir R. Nugent) with the utmost interest. As I do not want to occupy the time of the House for very long, as I know many other hon. Members wish to speak, I shall not follow him point by point, but I hope that I shall be able to comment in the course of my speech on one or two of the things he said with which I agree and one or two on which I differ from him.
The purpose of the Bill is to save life. As the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Transport said it might more reasonably be called a road safety Bill than the Road Traffic Bill, a statement which I am sure will find an echo in the hearts of everyone of us here. There will be no party politics, or at least I hope not, in the debates on the Bill. If we differ on some of the provisions in it and on some of the things which it is hoped may be put in it when it reaches Committee, that will be due not to political feeling but to other considerations.
The only criticism that I would offer is that the Bill has been a long time reaching us. I know—and the right hon. Baronet made the point—that when it was in another place it received a good deal of attention and was there improved. That undoubtedly may be the
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case, but if the Bill is designed to save life on the roads we should have had it much earlier than this. I deprecate very much that the House was not permitted to deal with this Bill when it passed through another place last year because, had it done so, the Bill would now be in operation, and I believe that many lives would have been saved. I do not include the Minister of Transport in that criticism. I am, if I may say so in this connection, one of his fans. I think that since he has been at the Ministry of Transport he has been very well aware of the problem which accidents on the road create and has done everything he could within the powers vested in him to lessen them.
One of the reasons why we now have this Bill is that the right hon. Gentleman has obviously found—we are all aware of it—that the powers which he has and the powers which the courts have are insufficient to deal adequately with the terrible slaughter on the roads. At the present time, about 1,000 people are killed or injured on our roads every day of the year. My right hon. Friend the Member for Vauxhall (Mr. Strauss) said that within the next ten years at least 1 million people would have been killed or injured.
Mr. Strauss: Seriously injured.
Mr. Hall: Yes, seriously injured. If we take the total of those seriously injured and of those not quite so seriously injured—the seriousness of the injury is a matter of opinion—within the next ten years over 3 million people, if the present slaughter goes on, will have been killed or injured on our roads. That is something which this House cannot contemplate with equanimity. Whether the ordinary man in the street likes it or not, we must, at the earliest possible moment educate him to a very different frame of mind.
One of the great reasons for the Bill is that everything else has been tried. We have had our campaigns—our poster campaigns, our television appeals, and at Christmas time the Minister himself has gone on television more than once in order to appeal to the public to be careful. But we all know that although the appeals have had some effect, it has not been great and that the figures go on mounting year by year. It has therefore become necessary—this is my first

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point—that statute law should now make it obligatory and mandatory on all individuals on the roads to follow certain rules.
I hops that we shall pass the Bill in more or less the shape in which we now have it because it seems to me that a great deal of thought has been given to it and that some of its provisions are clearly essential for dealing adequately with what is happening at the present time on our motorways and roads.
Like other hon. Members, I have followed fairly closely the debates that have taken place over the last eighteen months in another place. I was interested to hear the various reasons given by speakers there for road accidents. Impatience, speed, bad roads, drinking, faulty vehicles, bad driving, selfishness—all these were mentioned, and obviously they all have been the cause of accidents. They are all human factors. I suppose that most of us have been guilty of one or other of these faults. They are all failures of the human machine.
A short while ago I read with interest a survey on road accidents by Dr. Spriggs who was a police surgeon for many years and who has had great experience in these matters. He reviewed 254 fatal accidents and found that in only one case was a bad road responsible for the accident. In twelve or so cases the accidents were due to faulty vehicles or the illness of the individual concerned. In all the others the accident was caused by a personal factor, carelessness or selfishness, or some other reason entirely due to the individual concerned. Dr. Spriggs came to the conclusion that although other personal factors play a part, there was no doubt that alcohol played a much greater part than had been previously admitted.
The hon. Baronet the Member for Guildford has slightly changed his views since we discussed the matter of road safety two years ago at the time when a Bill was introduced by the hon. Member for Crosby (Mr. Graham Page). I think that the right hon. Gentleman would now agree with the conclusion reached by Dr. Spriggs and others. I note that the Economist, in an article on this Bill, stated:
"It has been increasingly recognised in the past five years that intoxication, as a contri
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butary factor in road accidents, has been seriously underestimated in official statistics: Mr. Marples's own appeals over the Christmas holidays have contributed to this view."
To be brief, I wish to concentrate almost entirely on those parts of the Bill relating to unfitness to drive due to drinking, partly because the provisions in them are new, and partly because recent surveys undertaken by various organisations have, in my view, proved beyond doubt that alcohol plays a much greater part in causing road accidents than has previously been supposed.
We have had surveys by the Road Research Laboratory, including the one which was carried out for the Minister when the Christmas figures for 1959 shocked the country. The Medical Research Council, under the chairmanship of Professor Drew has also carried out surveys. The results of these surveys point in one direction. At Christmas, 1959, there were 161 deaths and in 1961 there were 113. It is true that there was a drop in the total, between these two years, but the 1960 figures startled the country because they were published as a total and not as figures, included in the monthly totals. In fact, apart from Christmas Day, they are not much greater than the average daily figures for the first eleven months of last year, when just over 20 people were killed on average every day.
On Christmas Eve in 1959 69 people lost their lives. In 1960 the figure was 40. On the following day in 1959 the figure was 37 and in 1960 it was 29. In 1961, 40 people lost their lives on Christmas Eve and the next day the figure was 27. One is bound to infer from these figures that the ordinary jollifications which take place on Christmas Eve led materially to these deaths, and that conclusion is reinforced by the fact that many of the deaths occurred in the late evening after the public houses were closed.
The right hon. Gentleman suggested that the number of deaths among child pedestrians had decreased. I may have misread the figures which were issued by his Ministry, but from them I gathered that 7,908 children were killed or seriously injured from January to November in 1961. In comparison with the previous year the total was up by 8 per cent. These are shocking figures.

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Although the poster campaign obviously had some effect on motorists, there was, according to these figures—the Minister will correct me if I have quoted them wrongly—a rise of 8 per cent. in the number of child pedestrians killed or seriously injured. We must bear in mind that these children, in the nature of things, cannot have the same road sense as adults. Either they were killed, or, as a result of the accident, they lost one or more of their limbs. These facts help to bring home to us the need to do something drastic to deal with this problem.
The Minister has remarked on the cost, which is colossal. People injured in accidents are unable to work and contribute to the national economy. They occupy bed space in hospitals which might be used for other patients. It has been stated that the cost is about £100 million, but from figures which have been given to me it would appear to be much more than that—more like £200 million or £250 million—and much of this money could be saved.
Mr. Marples: The cost to the nation is £239 million.
Mr. Hall: I am obliged to the right hon. Gentleman. That figure is not far from the estimate given to me.
I hope that when we reach the Committee stage discussions the Minister will be willing to consider including in Clause 2 a limit on the amount of alcohol which may be consumed by a driver. When this Bill was discussed in another place the noble and learned Lord, Lord Denning thought that these tests of sobriety should be made compulsory and not, as in the Bill, permissive, and that, in addition, a limit of the amount of alcohol consumed should be put into the Bill. It is all very well to argue, as many people do, that if a percentage figure of alcohol in the blood is included in the Bill, that would be taken as a permissive limit, and people would feel that they could drink up to that amount and be safe. In spite of this, I think, however that it would be much better and more in accord with British justice, if we put a percentage figure in the Bill. Then we should all know where we were.
I hope that this percentage figure will not be too high. In the Bill introduced
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two years ago by the hon. Member for Crosby the figure was ·5 per cent.; which is rather high. I forget how many double whiskies it amounts to—[HON. MEMBERS: "Three."] I think that it is more than that, but I am not sure, because I have never tried to find out, I think that in Sweden the percentage is ·05, which amounts to about one-and-a-half pints of beer or from three to four single whiskies. I should have thought that sufficient for anybody to carry who might find himself behind the driving wheel of a vehicle.
We know from what the Minister has said that in other countries, particularly in Europe, the breathalyser and other chemical blood tests are used with great effect. I remember that a few years ago the Minister himself made a speech in which he said that he found when in Chicago that tests of that kind had made a great deal of difference. The Chicago police informed him that there had been a considerable drop in the incidence of drunkenness because of the introduction of these tests. I hope, therefore, that the Minister will not close his mind to the possibility of making a test obligatory and to putting a permissible percentage figure in the Bill.
With other hon. Members I welcome the Bill. I hope that the Minister will not give way regarding its main provisions. I was startled when my right hon. Friend the Member for Vauxhall indicated that it might take anything up to six months to discuss this Measure in Committee. I sincerely hope that it will not. I know that the last legislation on this subject took that length of time, but I sincerely hope that there is a sufficient amount of agreement among hon. Members to ensure that this Bill will have a much quicker passage. There is not the slightest doubt that it is needed. The sooner, therefore, that it is on the Statute Book, the sooner can this country begin to save the lives which it is designed to save.
6.10 p.m.
Mr. Norman Cole: Like all hon. Members who have preceded me in this debate, I very much welcome the Bill. I feel sure that my right hon. Friend the Minister wishes that we had had it at least a year ago, if not two years ago. The Bill is one more milestone on the path to enable us

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to live with the motor car rather than to die by it. We shall all welcome it for that reason.
I want to address a few brief remarks to the House on Clauses 2 and 3 and the subject of drunkenness. I do not know how authentic it is, but I have heard that one of the reasons why there are not more stringent conditions in the Bill, particularly in these Clauses, is concern about incursion into people's personal freedom. I said in the House some years ago that the greatest incursion into a person's freedom was to maim or kill him. I do not regard anything which is trying to stop that as restricting a person's freedom. After all, we enhance the freedom which we all enjoy by stopping practices which are not freedom but selfishness, and that is what drinking amounts to in this respect.
It is quite apparent to everyone that we shall need to form some new habits. The populace as a whole—including ourselves, for most of us are drivers—must have new habits, especially after what the Minister has said, and I agree with him very much about the doubling of the numbers of all vehicles on the roads in the next ten years. Many of us will have seen a statement in The Times which said:
"There is no point…in pretending that the innovation…"—
referring, in general, to these Clauses—
"whatever the details, will be popular, or that habits will not have to be sacrificed or trimmed."
That applies to each and every one of us in the House and each and every adult and adolescent in the country.
The right hon. Member for Colne Valley (Mr. Glenvil Hall) referred to the inclusion in the Bill of a percentage figure of alcoholic consumption. I have given a lot of thought to this matter. I realise that there are drawbacks to stating a certain figure. With great respect to the Minister, I do not accept that because one lays down a minimum people will think that they are free to imbibe up to that minimum. We must not overlook the fact that many drivers do not drink at all because they are abstainers. I should have thought that it would be possible in the interests of British justice to give some kind of guidance to magistrates, judges and
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juries about what is regarded as a dangerous amount. My hon. Friend the Member for Crosby (Mr. Graham Page) mentioned ·15 per cent. in his Bill, and ·05 per cent. has been mentioned. I wonder if it is realised that ·1 per cent. is 10 per cent. of alcohol in the blood for this test.
Mr. A. R. Wise: It is one-tenth of 1 per cent.
Mr. Cole: I stand corrected. It is still a very great figure. It is an appreciable percentage and I do not see any reason why it should not be mentioned in the Bill. If it were not necessarily mandatory it would be a guide to those who have to administer the Measure. If one thing is more certain than another it is that there may well be a different atmosphere in courts where juries operate and in magistrates' courts on the question of the imposition of the law of the land.
I agree with my right hon. Friend about increasing the penalty from £40 to £100. The right hon. Member for Vauxhall (Mr. Strauss) thought it derisory and that it would not make a difference, but I do not think that that is so. I believe that the more we put up the maximum penalty, the more we can bring home to magistrates and others who settle this kind of thing the seriousness with which we regard the offence, and that is what we want to do.
The Minister mentioned that many of the statistics regarding drunkenness are not available to his Ministry. In other words, the figures he had were not complete. He could not have spoken truer words. I was reading yesterday about the number of cases in which the culprit has been seriously injured and taken to hospital and where, before he was available to be questioned by the police, his degree of drunkenness was no longer apparent. None of these cloaked figures—cloaked by the humanitarian work done in hospitals—can be available to the Ministry. That is only one aspect of many cases. I do not know how to get over that problem. I would not wish that compassionate treatment to be brought to an end, but very often the person who finds himself in hospital after an accident is the one whose selfishness has been the cause of the accident.

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Two extreme cases will be within the knowledge of all hon. Members. My hon. Friend the Member for Twickenham (Mr. Gresham Cooke) has referred in the Press to the interpretation of the law of drunkenness in these two cases which have been settled in the last week or two. In one case a man was so drunk as to be unable—indeed, that is why he was acquitted—to deal with his car, although he was draped over the bonnet. Another man who had left his car and had gone to bed was considered culpable and found guilty. I do not know which of those interpretations is correct, but I know that they cannot both be correct. This question was covered in a previous Bill, but I think it time that someone gave a ruling on the interpretation.
I want to make special mention of a serious problem, the question of drinking by juveniles and those who have just left school. This ties up with what was said by my right hon. Friend the Member for Guildford (Sir R. Nugent) about training children in driving while they are still at school. It is a well known fact that many juveniles are drinking more heavily than has been the case in previous history. Those same juveniles from the age of 16 or 17 will be able to obtain licences to drive motor vehicles. Those two facts raise a very dramatic and tragic possibility, as is borne out by the figures.
I want to say a word or two about the penalties to which the Minister referred. I was glad that he said that—particularly the third offence disqualification—they were to be regarded rather from the deterrent point of view than necessarily from that of punishment. We seem to live in a world where we maintain peace and safety by means of deterrence rather than any other much more satisfactory means, but I am glad that this is the purpose behind this provision. It is not very much good, if this is to be a road safety Bill, punishing a man after he has killed someone. We want to deter him from taking action which will cause the death of someone. Deterrence seems to be the right attitude.
There is another rather subtle point about this. Many of those who pass traffic lights when they are showing red and are picked up and found guilty regard
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that as a technical offence, and consider that it is just bad luck that they have been caught. I should like to see a social stigma applied to this offence. In the old days of petrol rationing one was not considered guilty if one broke the regulations but was regarded as unlucky. It would be a healthy sign if there were a certain social obloquy attached to this kind of a case. If the penalties envisaged by my right hon. Friend become law, motoring offences will carry greater stigma.
My right hon. Friend said that about 50 per cent. of road accidents still take place near road junctions. In the past the figure has been higher. Perhaps people now take more care at junctions. I do not believe that motorists are sufficiently aware of this figure. It may be in the minds of pedestrians, especially if they have had to run for their lives. Much more emphasis should be laid on this figure.
Perhaps I am a "square" in this respect, but I remain convinced that speed in the wrong place is a major cause of many accidents. I am sorry that the circular my right hon. Friend has issued merely asks local authorities to review the question of retaining the speed limits they have. The emphasis is on whether they can be increased from 30 to 40 or more miles an hour. I am concerned about the cases where a speed limit should be in operation or where, if there is one, it should be lowered. There must be such places. I hope that the fact that motorists tend to ignore many speed limits will not be taken as a criterion of their value. Speed limits should not be abolished because motorists ignore them. If the authorities are satisfied that a speed limit is justified, it should be retained and motorists should obey the law.
I am sorry that local authorities are to have less power in relation to speed limits. In the case of an argument between the Ministry and local authorities, public inquiries are to be abolished. The local authority knows best about local speed limits. In my view, it is a better judge than the district officer of the Ministry. I hope that local authorities' powers in these matters will not be taken away when they have completed the survey. They should have a good deal to say in this matter.

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There are many kinds of anomalies in road transport. I do not apologise for mentioning two matters to which I have drawn the Minister's attention in the past. The first anomaly is where there are two roads with speed limits, both authoritative and necessary, but between them 300 yards of derestricted road. It would not matter so much about that piece of road being derestricted, if it were not that the second speed limit is not obeyed because motorists think that the derestriction is continuous, unless they notice the sign. I know that ignorance of the law is no excuse, but this state of affairs is a danger and a hazard.
Because of derision on the part of motorists. my right hon. Friend is not so keen on imposing speed limits as he might be. The second anomaly I want to mention is where five or six roads converge in a fairly populous village. Speed limits may operate in the back roads, but they are not imposed in the centre, on the ground that it is open and everybody can see what is involved. The standards applied in a place like Piccadilly Circus, where people can see everything and expect hazards, should not be applied to places in the country, where conditions are very different.
My right hon. Friend and the right hon. Member for Vauxhall had much to say about general provisions. As we are in the atmosphere of revolution and innovation, I cannot understand why we do not have schools, where attendance would not be obligatory, for people to brush up their driving. The right hon. Member for Vauxhall talked about people having a further test. Why should not someone with a conscience who feels he may have got into bad habits be allowed to take a refresher course, with no penalties attached and not necessarily at the risk of losing his licence?
Mr. Gresham Cooke: A motorist can submit himself to the test of the Institute of Advanced Motorists.
Mr. Cole: I am aware of that, but I should like to see a scheme operated by the State. The advanced driver's test is perhaps not available in every part of the country, as a general State scheme would be.
My next suggestion may be a little revolutionary, but I do not think that it would be unpopular. I do not see why
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people who have just passed the driving test and ceased to be learner-drivers should be exposed to all the rigours, dangers and hazards of the road. Other road users do not know how long these people have been driving. A person driving a car and holding a full licence may have been driving for only six or seven months from the day he took his first lesson. Motorists passing him or driving in cohort with him will not know that he has not been driving for years. A sign should be devised, to be displayed by drivers who have recently passed the test, so as to give guidance to others on the road. This would be for the protection of newly licensed drivers and help to increase road safety in general It would help to prevent many of the incidents which occur because an experienced driver assumes that everybody knows as much as he does.
I am not certain that this is the law, but I am informed by someone who has knowledge of these things that a licence to drive an ordinary motor car carries with it the permission to drive a goods vehicle of a much larger size—in fact of a very considerable size. I was shocked when I heard this recently. If this is so, we should find a way of controlling it.
This is the time when general suggestions should be made. Therefore, I suggest to my right hon. Friend that much more use should be made of the Highway Code. It should be reissued much more frequently and should be given away. I know the old adage that people attach more value to something they pay for. I do not care about that. I am concerned that this booklet, or specialised portions of it, should get into as many hands as possible. Excerpts from it should be displayed. Pictures of bad parking should be issued. The average motorist takes far more care about throwing away his cigarette end than he does about parking his car. He is still committed to the idea that where he stops his car is where he parks it. He is also committed to the idea that if he wants to go from point A to point B the direct route is the one for him. He would learn a lot if he visited America, where the average motorist puts his car into a parking lot and takes a taxi for the remainder of his journey.

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I commend the extension of the scheme for publicity on television. At the right time of the day up to 10 million people see it. This is easily the best form of publicity—I do not intend to show any leaning either towards the B.B.C. or I.T.V.—to get publicity on faulty driving over to the public. There should be more propaganda and education all the time. It should be repetitive. This was the only way to make school children understand kerb drill. It was done all the time, not just two or three times a year. It was part of their daily routine. It got home to them and stayed there.
I do not think that there is such a thing as a shocking poster in connection with the shocking state of affairs existing on our roads. As the right hon. Member for Colne Valley said, between 3 million and 4 million people are killed or injured in the course of ten years. I do not object to the widow poster. It may cause a great deal of heartburning amongst those who have lost their wives or husbands, but it will have a salutary effect on others.
In that connection I commend the recent Daily Mirror series of photographs showing the results of accidents, and descriptions of the circumstances in a home after an accident had taken away a member of the family. The series shocked me—I liked neither looking at it, nor reading it—but it had a very salutary effect. As the right hon. Member for Vauxhall said, the most salutary experience a motorist gets is to pass the scene of an accident. He drives very carefully for some time afterwards.
This Bill is not the end of the story—in a year or two we shall need to do other things—but it is the first and perhaps unpopular step towards adopting a realistic method of living with the motor car and the conditions that go with it. It is said that the number of vehicles will double in the next few years, but as the number of roads will not double, it means that the hazards will be doubled. I commend the Bill as a first step on the way to living with the motor car.
6.31 p.m.
Mr. Frank McLeavy: I join in congratulating the Minister on a delightful and informative speech. I hope that the enthusiasm he showed will
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be reflected in more vigorous action by the Ministry and the Government in dealing with our road traffic problems.
This Bill is designed to deal with some—some—aspects of our vast and varied road difficulties, and to that extent it is to be welcomed. If it is the forerunner of a wider and more comprehensive Measures, that will be all to the good, but it is only right to say that it touches only the fringe of the problem. Although stiffer penalties may be necessary because of the tremendous slaughter on our roads, they are not, in themselves, the complete solution. The solution lies in dealing more effectively with road congestion and in accelerating our road building programme.
Road congestion is due to inadequate roads and the increased number of vehicles using them. If we could get off the roads the heavy commercial loads that prevent a speedier flow of traffic we should be taking a very big step forward. It is high time that the Federation of British Industries, the railway authorities and the Ministry got together to see whether the railways could, by common agreement, be used more fully for the transportation of our manufactured goods.
It is the very height of folly to allow our roads to be dangerously congested in that way while the railways are allowed to lapse into disuse. There is something radically wrong with our thinking in relation to the use of all our national resources for the development and improvement of our economic life If we could more wisely use both rail and road transport and get some proper co-ordination between industry and the railways we would probably make a great contribution not only to removing the present congestion, but to the drive for national prosperity.
It is vitally important, too, that our road construction programme should be developed with the greatest possible speed. I admit quite frankly that during the last few years the Ministry has at least moved towards the construction of more motor roads and the improvement of other roads, but Parliament itself must face the facts squarely. We must spend more money, as quickly as possible, to make our roads more suitable for the traffic that must use them.

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If we decide to go into the Common Market, transport costs will be a vital factor in our ability to tackle our European competitors. It is not just a matter of providing better roads for motorists and motor traffic generally, but of providing the means by which our industrial products can be more competitive in price than the present wasteful delays caused by road obstruction allows them to be. Unless we are wise enough to get more co-ordination between road and rail—if necessary, making the railways a kind of financial or economic support for industry—we shall miss a very great opportunity to serve the nation in the way necessary for its survival.
Although the Parliamentary Secretary appeared to be somewhat amused at the time, I felt that it was not wrong for me to emphasise the question of congestion on the roads on a Bill which deals with the whole aspect of this problem. Whatever penalties we may place on people who drive recklessly we shall not, merely by the imposition of those penalties, solve the problem of the quicker transportation of our commodities.
While I realise that a detailed examination of the Bill can be better carried out in Committee, I must refer to one or two specific items in it. I have reservations about Clause 2, which introduces the principle of testing for the content of alcohol or drugs in the body. It is important that the results of these tests should be considered by the courts only along with the rest of the evidence, for if a permissible level of alcoholic content should gradually become accepted it would inevitably lead to injustice. The safety level of alcoholic drinking depends largely on the individual and cannot, under any circumstances, be assessed by a rigid standard.
Clause 2 (1) lays down that a refusal to undergo such a test can be counted as evidence against the accused. It is suggested in many quarters that this goes against the cardinal principle of British law. I understand the present practice of the courts to be that a person giving evidence need not necessarily answer a question if, by so doing, he would incriminate himself. It seems unwise to assume that a person who refuses to undergo this test may have been under the influence of alcohol or drugs at the time of the offence.
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If the Government are now satisfied that such tests are necessary in the public interest they should have the courage of their convictions and make them compulsory. It should be a condition of the driving licence that the holder will submit to a test when requested to do so by the police and a refusal to undergo it should result in the automatic withdrawal of the licence.
Subsections (2) and (3) of Clause 3 and Part II of the First Schedule extends the use of discretionary disqualification and introduces a new principle of obligatory disqualification. As this may bear with excessive and unjustified severity on a professional driver, we shall have to examine these provisions with care in Committee. We should remember that the professional public service vehicle driver is subjected to tests to obtain his licence under Section 144 of the Road Traffic Act, 1960, in addition to the test for obtaining his ordinary driving licence.
A driver's public service vehicle licence may be suspended or revoked by the traffic commissioner if he ceases to be a fit person to hold such a licence. Therefore, the risk of losing his livelihood by really dangerous road behaviour is a more powerful deterrent than the disqualification system suggested in the Bill.
I trust that the Minister of Transport—since this is an important Bill which represents a departure from some of our established and recognised customs—will, between now and the Committee stage, take the fullest opportunity of having further consultations with the T.U.C., the motoring organisations, the pedestrians' associations and other interested bodies so that when we come to examine the Bill in Committee he will not only be able to make any necessary Amendments, but will be able to answer the queries of hon. Members with certainty.
Since the principle of the Bill has the full support of all hon. Members, I hope that this will be one occasion when—and it seems almost absurd that I should have to make this plea—we might put the Whips on both sides in "cold storage" and approach our examination of the Measure in a way that will enable all hon. Members to make up their

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minds on any particular part of it in a way which is based on their true feelings and beliefs. I hope that the Minister of Transport will say that, at least on this matter, he will give back benchers their freedom. In any case, it is high time, when we are considering a Bill about which there is not a political controversy, that the Minister concerned should be able to take advantage of the advice tendered by all hon. Members.
If this were done we would be able to co-operate in moving Amendments which would improve the Bill. I hope that we shall not be landed in the position which often occurs in Committee, when the Minister simply digs in both his heels, will not depart from his brief, and, however sensible, important or desirable an Opposition proposal may be, will not budge an inch. It happens so often that because a Minister has been advised by his officials that the Bill, as drafted, is absolutely correct, he will not budge, and we get to the position where a Committee stage becomes a farce. Although the Minister often says, "I will certainly reconsider the position, in view of the speeches which have been made by hon. Members opposite", the result is that no changes are made.
This Bill can only be made worth while if every hon. Member is able to speak and vote as he likes. I ask the Minister to set a new example in respect of the Committee stage of Bills and to let back benchers have some freedom on this occasion. I believe that that would reflect itself in a much better Bill and, certainly, a Bill which would be more acceptable to the public than one which is forced through by the power of the Whips against the common sense of hon. Members.
6.51 p.m.
Mr. R. Gresham Cooke: I feel sure that all back bench Members will echo the eloquent plea made by the hon. Member for Bradford, East (Mr. McLeavy) that they should be able to speak and vote uninfluenced by the Whips, although I must confess that without those much maligned people our legislative progress would be a bit of a shambles from time to time.
Returning to the subject of road safety and leaving the matter of Parliamentary procedure, I am bound to say that if
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18 people died from smallpox every day of the year in this country there would be a scream of terror throughout the country. Every school would be closed. Every port and harbour would be closed and life would almost come to a standstill. Yet 18 people die on our roads every day. We regard that as part of the price that we have to pay in the community for the swift transport of persons and goods. We accept it without undue worry.
As a member of the Council of the Institute of Advanced Motorists—we have had some experience of this matter—I am fully aware that the standard of driving in this country is not good enough either in skill or in responsibility. The Minister asked, earlier, why this should be. The reason is that adults are not under discipline as are children. Fifty per cent. of the persons who go in for the advanced test cannot pass it at the first attempt, although it is not a very difficult one.
Our experience leads us to believe that there must be hundreds of thousands of people driving on the roads who could not pass the elementary test at the first attempt. We must accept a tightening up of driving standards, and in principle, therefore, I accept this Bill as a contribution to road safety.
My right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport thinks from time to time that he is the most unpopular man in this country and that everything he does for road safety is attacked. But if it is any consolation to him—and perhaps my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary could pass it on—
Mr. Hay: My right hon. Friend does not think that everything he does for road safety is attacked. He thinks that everything he does is attacked.
Mr. Gresham Cooke: The greater includes the less.
If it is some consolation to my right hon. Friend, I was looking through the memorandum on the Bill prepared by the motoring organisations and I observe that out of 39 Clauses they accept 23—or, rather, they do not object in any way to 23—and they feel that four or five Clauses should be modified.
Obviously, such Clauses as that which provides for the setting up of a register

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of persons approved to give driving instruction must command approval everywhere. A lad helps me in the garden from time to time at home. I taught him how to drive. To finish off the instruction, I sent him to the local driving school to complete his driving education. He came back full of bad driving habits. When I made further inquiries I discovered that the local driving school was run by a retired taxi driver, who was a repository of every bad trick there was to be known on the road.
Of the controversial Clauses I think that there are some modifications which would make them rather fairer for everyone. For instance, in Clause 1, after the word "impaired", I should like to see the adoption of the words "so as likely to cause danger on the roads". It seems to me that impairment of driving could technically be proved if one had consumed one light ale. That would be an intolerable situation. There must be some prima facie evidence that the driver is incapable of having proper control of the car.
May I say, in connection with alcoholic drink, that recently there was an extraordinary case at the Surrey Quarter Sessions—it was referred to today. A Mr. Henry Crichton was seen by a neighbour to park his car outside his flat, at an angle of 35 or 40 degrees to the kerb. His neighbour reported him to the police, and forty minutes later the police arrived at his flat, when he was in his night-clothes, in bed. He was taken to the police station and found to be unfit to be in charge of a car, although he never actually drove it.
I cannot understand why he was considered to be technically in charge of the car when he was in bed. If he had been prosecuted for driving the car When in an alcoholic state as reported by his neighbour, I could have understood it, but, according to a newspaper report, the deputy chairman of the sessions said, "There is no doubt that you were technically in charge of the car." If the deputy chairman was basing himself on the Haines case of 1931, in which it was said that a man was still in charge of a car until he passed it over to the control of someone else, I do not see how a bachelor, living in a bachelor flat, who takes his car home, is ever to get rid of the control of his motor car.
Mr. Hay: I apologise for interrupting my horn. Friend a second time. I promise that I will not do it a third time and, therefore, be disqualified. I think that it is very important to understand in connection with the case that my hon. Friend quoted that the newspaper reports say that this gentleman pleaded guilty. The issue of whether or not he was in Charge technically or otherwise was apparently never tested by evidence in the court.
Mr. Gresham Cooke: That is so, although I think that it was referred to. Anyway, that is a point that we ought further to examine in Committee.
Mr. C. Pannell: I believe that I was on the Committee that considered the 1956 Measure and dealt with this point. I read of this case over the weekend and thought about it rather deeply. I thought that the point was that this man left his car outside at an angle of 30 degrees from the kerb and in a dangerous position, thus giving the police some right to bring him back to move the car into a proper position. To that extent, he was in charge.
Mr. Arthur Holt: He was responsible, anyway.
Mr. Pannell: He was responsible. I am aware that he was not sufficiently sober to be aware of his right to stay in bed, where no policeman could have thrown him out.
Mr. Gresham Cooke: That may well be so. Anyway, my point—and I am sure my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary will agree—is that we ought to re-examine this matter, because I thought that we had settled it in the 1956 Act.
A test for drunkenness should be made either at a police station or in hospital. If a breathalyser is to be used, the Home Secretary ought to produce regulations to be laid before Parliament prescribing the type of breathalyser to be used and the method of testing.
I was interested to see reported in the Press of 24th February that the West German Minister of Justice has been conducting tests on journalists to find out how much effect drink had on them. I read in the Daily Telegraph:
"The normal police test of breathing into a chemically treated bag was completely discredited. One journalist whose bloodstream at

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the start of the test should have been alcohol-free, judged by when he last drank, was shown by the 'blow bag' to have 0·2 per 1,000. Another 'guinea-pig' who should have registered 0·8 per 1,000 midway in the test was 'proved' by the bag to have 2·3 per 1,000."
That indicates that the breathalyser is not yet a scientifically correct method of testing.
Mr. Graham Page: My hon. Friend will distinguish between the balloon with colours in it, which is a very crude way of testing the breath, and the breathalyser, which is a scientific instrument which does not fail.
Mr. Mellish: More than that, it is in use in Toronto and Basle, and it works well.
Mr. Gresham Cooke: We can pursue the matter in Committee. I think that a good deal of doubt has been cast on the accuracy of the breathalyser, and I do not think that it should be used without being passed by Parliament in regulations.
We must all admit that Saturday night is danger night on the roads. Judged by the number of vehicles overturned and the accidents one sees, that is clearly so. Nor must we forget the number of drunken pedestrians involved. Dr. A. B. Cassie, of Wythington Hospital, Manchester, in a paper he contributed to the British Medical Journal in December, said that during the period of his research all the pedestrians brought to the hospital who had been involved in road accidents after midnight were "intoxicated".
The research at Christmas, 1959, as I pointed out to my right hon. Friend earlier, revealed that in the drink cases both drivers and pedestrians were involved. Two or three summers ago, I was driving through a market town at two o'clock on a Saturday afternoon when a pedestrian standing on the kerb just ahead of me fell flat on his face in front of my motor car. Fortunately, I was driving a light car in third gear and I was able to pull up in about 20 feet. Everyone in the road rushed forward to this fellow, lying there, and said what a terrible thing it was for him, and so on, quite without sympathy for me, who had had a great shock as a result of nearly killing someone, and who, by
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having a little presence of mind, had been able to avoid running over him.
Drink is one factor. The weather is another. The ordinary motorist cannot compete with the weather in this country. On Monday morning last, I drove 40 miles in conditions which were not very serious, but in that distance I saw three accidents and one overturned car.
Clause 3 provides for obligatory automatic disqualification. There is no doubt that for three fairly minor offences a man could lose his licence for six months, perhaps for leaving his lorry over the studs 45 ft. before a pedestrian crossing, for a small offence against the Construction and Use Regulations, and so on. By the Clause some discretion is given to magistrates. They may find "special reasons", but, as I understand, the special reasons refer only to the last offence committed and not to the offender. If one were speeding to fetch a doctor in an emergency, that might be a special reason.
On the other hand, the fact that a doctor drives a very great mileage, or a lorry driver drives 40,000 or 50,000 miles a year and, therefore, exposes himself to four or five times the risk to which the ordinary motorist is exposed is not a special reason to be taken into account. I think that we should bear this matter in mind when we examine the Clause.
I am putting to my right hon. Friend certain suggestions for improving the Bill. Two have been suggested to me by the Institute of Advanced Motorists. For instance, a person making application for a driving licence may answer "Yes" on the form to questions Nos. 12, 14 or 15 which relate to disabilities, epileptic fits, and so on. Does the local authority have to do anything about it? It is believed that it need not and in many cases does not in fact take further action.
There was the sad case of a foreman recently charged at Stafford Assizes who was said to be suffering from epileptic fits. He had run down and killed two grooms. In that case, it was a pity that he did not have a medical examination earlier. In my view, the penalties for false statements in filling up these forms of application for a licence should be stiffened.

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I agree with the right hon. Member for Vauxhall (Mr. Strauss) when he says that we should consider whether people over 75 years of age should have to take the learner driver's test. There was recently the sad case of a man of 81 who ran down some cyclists and killed them.
Mr. Wise: Is there not such a test?
Mr. Gresham Cooke: No, there is no test at any time unless the person concerned is involved in a case and the magistrates call upon him to take it.
Another suggestion from the Institute of Advanced Motorists is that a young driver who has just passed his test should show on his vehicle a plate carrying the letter R, meaning "restricted", during the first year after passing the test and should be limited to a speed of 50 m.p.h. the object being that he should not be tempted to rush out and buy a very powerful sports car or motor cycle and try to do the "ton" in the first year of his driving career.
I have been supplied with evidence of an extraordinary trade going on today in rebuilding motor cars which have been written off by insurance companies. These cars are built up again and sold as normal second-hand cars. I suggest that we should provide, by a simple Clause in the Bill, that any person who sells a motor car, whether privately or through the trade, should be required to declare to the buyer the name of the insurer of the vehicle. This would enable the insurance company of the buyer to check the history of the vehicle.
I have some personal interest in this, because I bought a second-hand car for my son, two or three years ago. It was a bona fide purchase from a motor trader. Six months later, I was told by someone, "I see that your son is running round in my mother's old car". I said that I was pleased about that, supposing that it had been very well driven. "No", was the reply, "My mother drove it into the back of a lorry, smashing it completely, and she has never driven since". I should have been very glad to know that before purchasing the car for my boy.
Last, but by no means least, there is one peculiar facet of our driving law which requires attention. I hope that I shall have the support of hon. Members on both sides in this matter. The
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driver of a car, a lorry or a bus who holds a licence for any of those purposes is precluded from driving a simple moped without passing another test. By "moped" I mean a bicycle equipped with pedals and an engine of a capacity not exceeding 50 c.c. These mopeds cannot do more than about 20 or 25 m.p.h. They are just as simple to drive as a bicycle, as I have proved in my own experience.
Surely, if a bus driver wants to buy a moped so that he may motor to work, he should not have to put L plates up before he takes it on the road. This is an anomaly which should be removed, and I shall in due course put down a new Clause for the purpose which, I hope, will be accepted so that our law in this respect may be brought into line with that of the rest of Europe.
Subject to qualifications of the kind I have indicated, I have pleasure in commending this new and thoughtful Road Traffic Bill as representing a step forward in our search for road safety.
7.8 p.m.
Mr. Charles Pannell: I am glad to follow the hon. Member for Twickenham (Mr. Gresham Cooke) because, although I do not always agree with him, there is no doubt that he has had great experience in the motor car industry. There is nothing worse than beginning one's speech by saying, "I hope that the hon. Gentleman will excuse me if I do not follow him," because it usually means that the standard of debate is going down. However, if I do not follow the hon. Gentleman this evening, it will not be for that reason but because he seemed to be a master of all the elementary virtues and said for the most part the things with which I very much agree. I did not know about the problem in regard to driving a moped. I have never wanted to drive one. I shall refer to other and probably more acrimonious questions.
I think I shall carry the House with me if I remark now, though I appreciate that it is not usually in order to do so, that tonight we miss one figure under the Gallery who used to be here for all the road traffic debates which I can remember. I refer to the late James Hudson, who represented Ealing and Huddersfield constituencies for many years. Much of what appears in this

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Bill is due to his pioneer work. He was, I should say, the outstanding propagandist for road safety, certainly on the temperance side. He was a man of great nobility, and there was very great regret at his death, and the hon. Gentleman who defeated him at the time he lost his seat in 1955 said that there was no man he would have less wanted to defeat in a Parliamentary struggle. I thought it might be considered appropriate if, since this is part of the background to this Bill, somebody should refer tonight to one of the great pioneer figures.
There is another point. When an accident has occurred in a certain place somebody usually puts the question, "Is there a doctor in the house?" I would ask the question: "Is there anybody in the House who walked to Aldermaston?" Obviously there is not, but I have always understood that the demonstrations at Aldermaston were demonstrations against the wrath to come—the unpredictable death that may come upon us. I have always thought that that is an essay amongst these one-idea people who tend always to think in terms of the end of the world, just as people have been thinking about it almost ever since the world began.
Tonight, however, we are dealing, in the absence of these devoted people, with something which we know, predictably and probably, may cause either loss of life, ruin of life or injury, to probably 350,000 or 400,000 people in the next year. It seems to me we have our sense of values wrong when people are permitted to demonstrate about something which may never happen and fail altogether to take any interest in something which is happening under their very noses, and which, if it does come, means death and destruction to their constituents and to many other people up and down the land. It seems to me that this is a reflection upon their scale of values.
I want to deal with the question of the breathalyser test as a matter of principle, and I, too, have spent a lifetime motoring. A few years ago, we pressed very hard on this side of the House, and it was accepted with some reluctance on the other, for all vehicles being tested. We are in favour of the testing of motor
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cars from one year old onwards. We are having them tested at ten years, and the term has been reduced to seven years. If we accept that, I do not see how we can object to the idea that the motorist himself should be tested and found fit to drive. One might well argue that the one is complementary to the other. Good driving means the integration of a road-worthy vehicle and a road-worthy driver, and I can see no objection in principle to these tests, any more than I can to finger prints being taken and a man having to undergo certain tests if there is any suspicion that he has had either the one over or the one under, as the case may be.
Mr. Rees-Davies: Would the hon. Gentleman agree that if that is so, quite clearly there ought to be the same test applied if somebody is fit to drive? If is not only drink that makes people unfit. It could be epilepsy or one of a million causes. Should not that be the only logical outcome of that argument?
Mr. Pannell: As one who happens to have a disease liable to that sort of interpretation, I can say that that argument does not stand up at all. Most people who are diabetics are highly controlled; drunks are not controlled. I have to live under discipline day by day, and the penalties for my not doing so are pretty severe. Let us not try to make an alibi for the drunks and compare them with people having diseases, because the latter are conscious of the fact every minute, and if they drive for two hours must have sugar or something like that. It is a completely false comparison. Only those who have lived with this sort of thing can know how false it is. Of course, we have to ensure that the man who has a driving licence is fit. When a man applies for a licence he has to say whether he has any medical history and is under penalty. Alcohol is a great hoaxer and "kidder", and it is probably true that a man who has had a single whisky and soda kids himself into thinking that he is driving better when in fact he is driving worse. All the tests show that men who drink suffer to a degree from delusions, and I have had charge of men and know that if I drive I do not drink. I cannot see for the life of me why there should be any objection in principle to tests when a man does take drink himself.

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When I was in the United States, I took a great deal of trouble to look into the activities of the breathalyser, and the "drunkometer" as well. I remember the great traffic court in Detroit, seeing this sort of thing and hearing the evidence from the forensic laboratory brought out. There was a master sergeant who was a veteran of the Korean war with the Order of the Purple Heart and the Military Medal, but that did not sway the judge at all. It was mandatory. There was the proof, and the man had to accept the ultimate penalty.
This is a very serious thing indeed. When we are speaking of this matter, I want to say that I was rather arrested by a suggestion made by Baroness Wootton in another place that it would probably be a good idea for hostesses to invite their guests to try the breathalyser before going home after a party. It is quite an idea, and it occurred to me, and I think many will agree when seeing these enormous car parks outside public houses with people 'being turned out, that it might be a good idea to make it obligatory to have breathalyser tests at public houses. Might it not also be a good idea to take that sort of thing a little bit further? It is a question whether it would not be quite a good thing, in exactly the same way as we have concentrated attention on some aspects of the traffic problem, if we had, say, a fortnightly test at public house car parks, with the police taking part in it. That is what we want to do. There is far too much association in social life in public houses, and, in my experience, people sometimes drive home after drinking in a condition in which they should not drive at all.
Mr. Wise: It is a purely technical point, but would the hon. Gentleman agree that the machine ceases to be accurate after about 10 cases?
Mr. Pannell: The hon. Gentleman speaks from far closer association with these things than I do.
The idea was put in my mind by what my right hon. Friend the Member for South Shields (Mr. Ede) said about prosecutions for serving people in public houses who are almost under the influence of drink. This kind of prosecution appears almost to have disappeared. Obviously, many people must be served when they are really not fit to drive. I
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do not think that we can lay all these penalties on the motorist, who may slip up and have an accident. It is obvious that motorists have to make their contributions towards solving the problem.
I want to refer to another point about the Bill. I was associated with the Bill of my hon. Friend the Member for Loughborough (Mr. Cronin) concerning compulsory insurance for motor cycles. We should bear in mind that one out of twelve motor cyclists under 20 years of age was injured in 1958, and that, from 1955 to 1959, teen-age fatal and serious accidents rose by about 150 per cent.
Why was that Bill killed? It was killed by—and I use the word carefully—an unscrupulous lobby, through a pile of correspondence to hon. Members about the great hardships that would fall upon young people if it were passed. There was talk about whether hon. Members would like their sons to be stopped from riding their motor cycles, and sentimentality of that kind. The other day I was reading the report of a case in which a young woman was awarded £17,863. She was a pillion rider. She is completely crippled for life. The report was in the Eastern Daily Press and said:
"A 20-year-old Norfolk girl, paralysed from the chest down after a motor cycle accident. was awarded…£17,863 at Norfolk Assizes yesterday.…In May, 1960, she travelled back to Norwich from Yarmouth on the pillion of a motor cycle driven by S.A.C. David John Jupe, then stationed at R.A.F. Marham."
The report told how she now had reduced earning capacity, although she was a bright girl. Probably the question of marriage would be out for her. It said that she was facing her future with great bravery.
Two considerations arise from this. If the motor cyclist in that case was adequately insured to sustain such damages, then I am only too glad for both him and the girl. The argument against the Bill of my hon. Friend the Member for Loughborough, however, was from those people who would not have had that cyclist insured. He would have been a man of straw in those circumstances. What would have become of these heavy damages for this girl then?
The Minister has some duty in this. One can read the old debates in Parliament which resulted in it being made

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necessary to have third-party insurance in the normal way, but pillion passengers were not included. The Minister discussed the possibility of getting over this when we considered my hon. Friend's Bill in Committee. With the country facing this degree of danger in the casualty figures among motor cyclists, the House cannot allow such a thing to go on much longer.
Mr. Hay: How does the hon. Gentleman reconcile his views now with the fact that he talked that Bill out on Second Reading?
Mr. Pannell: That is a fair point. My hon. Friend had risen to withdraw the Bill. I talked it out in protest against its being withdrawn. If the Parliamentary Secretary will do me the credit of reading the debate, he will see that the Bill was in a hopeless position. I make no secret of the fact that I rebuked my hon. Friend for withdrawing the Bill without permission from one of his sponsors. I was one of the sponsors and I gave technical help. I protested against the Bill being withdrawn. I think that I come clean out of that one.
The motor cycle industry, of course, has a lobby. I commended to the Minister the Fabian pamphlet by Barbara Preston which he referred to today. It is the most comprehensive pamphlet on road safety I have read. It says:
"The motor cycle industry are very concerned that fewer of the more powerful (more lethal) machines are being sold. This is partly as a result of propaganda (any article or TV talk giving the facts concerning the danger of these machines draws forth a spate of protest), but largely because the insurance premiums are so heavy."
If these machines have become so lethal, and if people are considering special speed limits, it seems to me that we will have to deal with the problem of pillion passengers. Medical men in the House consider this problem to be terrible. I remember an hon. and learned Member opposite speaking to me privately about this. He said that, if people only knew the extent of the problem, they would never have defeated my hon. Friend's Bill.
I do not want to accuse the motor industry generally of social irresponsibility, but I think that it should be responsible to the extent of keeping up with new
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techniques. One of the great difficulties involved in safety harness in cars is presented by the fixtures. This is a point on which most harnesses fail. One cannot really strap a harness to car seats. Just as the Minister has insisted on a double rear light and other such things, somewhere in the not too far distant future he should persuade the industry to install the brackets needed to hold car harness effectively. Speaking as an engineer, I do not think it should be too difficult. Perhaps the brackets could be welded into the chassis itself.
One can buy harness as an extra, but in many cars it is almost physically impossible to fit the best forms of harness. I believe that harness brackets should be put into all new models. There is far too much tendency in the industry to harp on speed. There is an impression that the question of safety is rather dull. I invite hon. Gentlemen to read the January issue of Which? which brings out the facts about harness and tells how a number of makes break down at the attachments.
I have often said that we can do two practical things about accidents. One is to deal with drunks and the other is to deal with dogs. I am in favour of the Bill's provisions to deal with drunks. But the question of dogs on the road also has a history. When the Road Traffic Act, 1956, was in Committee, I pressed this point on the then Minister of Transport, the present Minister of Pensions and National Insurace. His Department was then reluctant to include control of dogs in that Act. It was forced through in Committee, however.
The present Minister of Defence was appointed Minister of Transport during the passage of that Act and he finally agreed to a provision about dogs. Under that Act, a local authority has to ask permission of the Minister to go ahead with schemes for specifying certain roads on which dogs without leads are prohibited. I understand that a local authority will be able to make its own scheme under this Bill and need not consult the Ministry of Transport.
Mr. Hay: That Bill is making a change in this respect. Confirmation of what I will, for the sake of clarity and brevity, call a "dog order" will no longer need to be sought from my right hon. Friend. That is one of the changes.
Pannell: That is how I understand it, but I think that the Minister could go a little further. He should ask the local authorities what they have done about controlling dogs, for statistics indicate that in Leeds, for instance, such control has had some effect.
I have told this story before—in 1951 or 1952, soon after I came to this House. The Chief Constable of Leeds wrote to me then and said that there was a dog element in one in four accidents in the city. I was staggered. Nevertheless I did find many cases where the dog element played a large part in the accidents. I have secured no figures for this speech, but at that time 60,000 dogs had been maimed or injured on the roads in that year. An uncontrolled dog is a menace and contributes to road accidents. It is time we stopped being sentimental about this. I cannot understand why the Minister insists, in this Bill, upon saying to local authorities, "You can carry on in the old sweet way and decide whether or not to make an order." He should ask them what they have done about this matter. If he collected a few statistics, I feel fairly sure that they would prove my point.
I am not happy about the obligatory disqualification in respect of the three offences in the Bill. I can well imagine the sort of bad luck which may overtake a man and in which automatic disqualification would be monstrous. If I could see any test by which magistrates judged this, I might be happier. But I have been a magistrate and I have sat on a bench of magistrates which dealt with matters rather curiously. The sort of things which benches do are patchy and they are not uniform. I think that this provision in the Bill might be changed.
Of course, there is a case for what the Minister said that to park a vehicle in the hypothetical place which he mentioned might cause an accident. But I can think of instances in which I might consider it safe to park a vehicle in a place but a policeman might not consider it safe because he was not a motorist. I might park in a town and some local "bigwig" might complain to the police about where I have parked and the social relationship between them might be such that the police would accept his opinion. This is one reason
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why I agree with the Bill that local authorities should not be the judge of speed limits in their own districts. A more objective view is needed in these cases. But I cannot see that an objective view has been applied to the three offences mentioned in the Bill. Of course, I have not closed my mind on the matter, but I merely say that this is one of the things which cause me some unhappiness.
The right hon. Member for Guildford (Sir R. Nugent) referred to the need for more education in the schools about road safety. The best road safety lesson that I had concerned the Taylor Allardyce High School in Pittsburg. There were 367 cars used by the children in the school on the car park. It was no wonder that this enormous school of 3,500 pupils had five orchestras, including harps. They needed them.
The Ministry of Education might reasonably consider whether some of the things taught in school are as important as road safety. I remember looking at some of my daughter's papers when she was taking her G.C.E. at "O" level. I helped her with some research on falconry in the Elizabethan era. This took her all the evening. I could not help wondering whether this was germane to today's problems and whether it was likely to do her as much good as some education about road safety in 1961. Although the schools have done much in this matter, they ought to consider, particularly the high schools and grammar schools from which drivers are likely to come in a year or two's time, whether they should introduce advanced courses of road safety or even courses of driving for children who leave school at 16 and 17 years of age.
Of course, I will do my best in dealing with the Bill. I think that I have served on every Committee considering Road Traffic Bills since I have been a Member of the House because I am interested in this matter. However, I hope that the Minister of Transport will not be too wedded to the Bill.
I wish to finish by reinforcing the plea of my hon. Friend the Member for Bradford, East (Mr. McLeavey) with a lesson about the history of the 1956 Bill, which my right hon. Friend the Member for Vauxhall (Mr. Strauss) will remember. When we started consideration of

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that Bill, the present Minister of Pensions and National Insurance was the then Minister of Transport in charge of it. I think that Lord Molson was Parliamentary Secretary. We made no progress, or very little progress, on the Bill for three months. The Minister kept on saying that he would consider this suggestion and put that matter back, and so on. He seemed to be obstinate on the smallest points. But what really broke him in the end—I do not know whether it got him out of the job—was back benchers of the Conservative Party who refused to treat the Bill as a party political Bill. They dug their heels in at a fortuitous time during the Committee stage so that there was no question of loss of face. The present Minister of Defence took over the Bill and we finished consideration of it in about a fortnight.
No one wants to consider this Bill as a party political Bill. The Ministry of Transport is already jammed upstairs with a Bill which I believe arouses the strongest passions. I am not a member of the Committee considering it, thank goodness. The Bill which we are considering today is not such a Bill as that. I beg the Parliamentary Secretary to tell the Minister that there is a great fund of good will towards the Bill. He will make the greatest progress towards the end that he desires if he will consider it in that way and not take too much notice of what has been said in the other place. I hope that he will consider the Bill on its merits as it appears to the House of Commons and will bear in mind the wise words of the hon. Member for Guildford, who made it clear that we are so much ahead of the public in these matters and can bring a far more critical judgment to bear.
We have seen plenty of sorrow which resulted from road accidents, and I have witnessed road accident cases from the professional aspect of the matter. We wish the Minister well with the Bill, and hope that he will take advantage of the good will that there is for it in the spirit in which it is offered.
7.36 p.m.
Mr. H. P. G. Channon: This is the third Road Traffic Bill since 1955. I was attracted by what the hon. Members for Leeds, West (Mr. C. Pannell) and Bradford, East (Mr.
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McLeavy) said, namely, that at this third attempt the Whips should be automatically disqualified at the discretion of the Government.
It would be a bold man who followed the hon. Member for Leeds, West but did not attempt to deal with at least some of the points which he made. I was particularly interested in that part of his speech dealing with safety straps. I consider that one of the great omissions from the Bill and from our road safety regulations is that there is no compulsion about the use of safety straps. I can well understand why it may be thought impossible to make use of such things compulsory.
I have here the Report of the Road Research Council for 1960, from which I should like to quote one sentence. In referring to safety belts, it states:
"This specification can be regarded as a preliminary one because a good deal of research remains to be done to establish the most desirable requirements".
I urge my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to consider it as a matter of the very greatest importance that we should press on with research to discover not only the most suitable form of road safety harness but the most suitable fixtures for it and whether safety straps are being adequately put in cars. Like the hon. Member for Leeds, West, I read the article in Which?, and it bears out my belief that a great deal more must be done before we get this matter of safety belts and safety harness right. I hope that at some time in the future they will be compulsory for motorists.
With regard to the question of disqualification, the right hon. Member for Vauxhall (Mr. Strauss) said that there was no point in increasing fines because magistrates would not award the maximum fine. In those circumstances, one is almost compelled to make disqualification automatic. That is one of the important reasons why there should be automatic disqualification, as proposed in the Bill.
I am, however, a little unhappy about Clause 4. If the disqualification is for less than four years, it is impossible to try to get the disqualification removed by the courts. I think that this is right. If wider use is to be made of disqualification by the courts, admirable and right though that is, it is hard that there

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should be a period during which one cannot apply to the courts to have it removed. To make disqualification automatic and at the same time to make it harder to have the disqualification removed is a little harsh.
I was once challenged by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport in an unguarded moment, which, no doubt, he has long since forgotten, to make a speech on speed limits. I expressed to him some unorthodox views after he gave me an excellent lunch and, incidentally, after which we were both driven to the House of Commons.
I should like my right hon. Friend to say clearly what he intends to do about Clauses 9, 10 and 11. Is it my right hon. Friend's intention that these restrictions should be experimental and imposed for only a short period? That appears to be the intention, but if one reads the Clauses carefully—and I am sure that we shall do so in Committee—it seems that he can prolong the period during which a temporary speed limit is imposed merely by bringing in a Statutory Instrument, and there is also the fact that he has power to impose speed limits on all roads in the country. If that is his intention, he ought to make it clear to the House. If, however, that is not his intention, we ought to know where we stand.
I was also interested to read in the Report of the Road Research Council that, in general, when speed limits were increased from 30 to 40 m.p.h. the number of accidents increased only very slightly. This is important, because many speakers have pointed out that one of the great difficulties about the present speed limits is that, rightly or wrongly, they are regarded with a certain amount of derision by the average motorist. I am delighted that my right hon. Friend proposes to institute a great drive to discover which limits can be raised so that we may have a workable and sensible system.
I may be in a minority of one, but I do not think that the experimental 50 m.p.h. speed limit has worked out satisfactorily. I frequently drive to Southend at times when the experimental 50 m.p.h. speed limit is in force. I speak with authority when I say that with the best will in the world it is impossible to drive at that speed on some stretches of the Southend road. The only time
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when it is possible to do so at a weekend in the summer is in the middle of the night when there is very little traffic on the road. I recognise that many people believe in restricting speed limits, but I am one of those who think that the case for them has yet to be made out. I do not think that in all cases the clamping on of a speed limit is the way to solve our problems.
I hope that my right hon. Friend will say something about driving instructors, because one Clause in the Bill empowers him to appoint them. This is an excellent idea, and I come back to the point made by some of my hon. Friends. One of the loopholes in our road traffic regulations is that it is possible to pass the driving test in a Mini-Minor one day, and the next evening to drive a Ferrari up the M.1 at 140 m.p.h. I know that this proposal must bristle with difficulties, but I think that there should be some additional tests for people who wish to drive cars capable of speeds higher than a certain limit which my right hon. Friend may think suitable.
My hon. Friend the Member for Twickenham (Mr. Gresham Cooke) is connected with the Institute of Advanced Motorists. I think that there may be a case for saying that people should not drive cars that can travel faster than a certain limit unless they have passed the test laid down for the advanced motorist, or any other test that my right hon. Friend sees fit to introduce. I think that one of our present troubles is that inexperienced drivers drive fast cars without the necessary experience to enable them to do so. This is why the drivers of fast cars get into disrepute.
I notice that my right hon. Friend can now lay down certain minimum, as well as maximum, speed limits on certain roads. It is proposed to lay down that those who drive at a speed below the minimum limit cannot be convicted merely on the evidence of one person. As no mention has been made of this, presumably those who drive at a speed above the maximum limit can be convicted on the evidence of one person.
Mr. Ronald Bell Mr. Ronald Bell indicated dissent.
Mr. Channon: I will, however, check this point and discuss it with my hon. Friend.
Every speaker has referred to the seriousness of traffic accidents, but we

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must not allow this question to get out of proportion. Some hon. Members have said that the more vehicles there are on the road, the greater will be the problem, and the greater the number of accidents. This, however, is contrary to our experience. In 1934 there were 2½million vehicles on the road and accidents resulted in 7,350 deaths. In 1939, five years later, there were 3 million vehicles on the road and 8,300 people were killed. Today there are about 10 million vehicles on the road and I think that the number of deaths for the first eleven months last year amounted to 6,234.
A great deal of credit is due to successive Ministers of Transport of both parties during the last twenty years for the way in which they have managed to improve the situation.
Mr. William Shepherd: And to the drivers.
Mr. Channon: Yes, certainly credit is due to the drivers, and I was going to deal with them. I do not accept the strictures of my hon. Friend the Member for Twickenham. I think that drivers in this country are far better than those in any other country. This is a world-wide problem, and I think that British drivers, with a few irritating exceptions, are better than Continental drivers, and better even than drivers in the United States of America. It is extraordinary that although the number of vehicles has increased by 7 million, the number of deaths has decreased by 2,000.
Apart from the minor points that I have raised, and the omission of the major point about safety belts, I think that this Bill is to be widely commended, whether the Whips are on or not. Knowing the deep interest of the right hon. Member for Colne Valley (Mr. Glenvil Hall) in legislation of this sort, I think that hon. Members on both sides of the House were grateful to him for his assurance that when the Bill is considered in Committee it will be dealt with expeditiously and efficiently. It should be the desire of us all to get this Measure on to the Statute Book as soon as possible.
7.48 p.m.
Mr. Arthur Holt: It is impossible to debate a subject with people with whom one agrees. I therefore
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do not find it any easier than other hon. Members have done to follow the previous speaker, because there is obviously a great deal of common ground on this Bill, I, too, welcome it.
The Bill is one small facet of the road safety problem. I very much regret, as I have said on previous occasions, that the Government's road building programme does not keep pace with our requirements. It is all right for the Minister to grimace, but I intend to say more later about the failure of the Government to produce a road building programme which the circumstances demand. All the good that may be done by this Bill and other safety measures will be neutralised because we already have a higher number of vehicles per mile than any other country, and this figure will be doubled by 1970. The road building programme just does not measure up to requirements.
Some hon. Members have referred to shock posters. I suspect that although they may shock the conscientious driver who, for a moment, may have been driving a little faster than he should have been, they have little material effect upon the accident-prone, or the customary careless or thoughtless driver. In this respect, the road safety problem really consists of two parts. We want to achieve the best reaction from people who are conscientious, but who may have a lapse occasionally and have an accident, and also from those who act almost continuously in an irresponsible manner. Only better enforcement and fiercer penalties will bring those people to heel.
Although the number of road accidents to children has decreased since the war—the Minister told us that in 1930 no fewer than 1,685 children were killed, whereas the figure is now down to 700—accidents on the road still account for more deaths of children between the ages of 5 and 15 than any other single cause. In fact, no less than half the accidents to children are road accidents.
I did not quite understand what the right hon. Member for Vauxhall (Mr. Strauss) said about the total number of deaths and injuries from road accidents; he semed to have got hold of the wrong figures. I am told that the likelihood is that between now and 1970 as many

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people as now live in the London County Council area will be killed or injured on the road. That is just short of 3 million people. That is a colossal figure, but it is the rate at which people have been killed and injured on the road in the last eight or nine years. It is difficult to appreciate the real horror of this fact and to get over to the ordinary people the magnitude of the disaster.
During the next few years we must demand from motorists a continually rising standard of fitness and skill. A person who is being driven in a coach may get out if he discovers that the coach driver has been drinking, but the same person who is being driven in a friend's car may stay in that car even when he knows that the driver has had as much to drink as the coach driver had had. Whereas he would have written to the coach driver's firm, saying, "This is monstrous; you should not allow this person to drive a coach on the roads," he would not say anything to the friend who was driving him.
We have all been accepting this situation for too long, and we must not continue to accept it. We must accustom ourselves to the idea that anyone who drives a motor car must possess such a standard of fitness and skill that the danger of having an accident is reduced to a minimum.
I listened with interest to the intervention made by the hon. Member for the Isle of Thanet (Mr. Rees-Davies) during the speech of the hon. Gentleman the Member for Leeds, West (Mr. C. Pannell) on the subject of medical fitness. My view is that these things may come later, but that we must first tackle the question of drink. We need to go further than the Bill goes. We must impose a limit on the amount of drink taken. Unless we do so we shall place the courts in a very difficult situation. Many legal wrangles will arise, and we shall not achieve the desired object.
This country may not have much experience or knowledge of the relationship between alcohol and road accidents, but the problem has been tackled in the Scandinavian countries and in the United States of America, and none of those countries has gone back on its legislation on this matter. Norway has had blood tests since 1926, and even in
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this country, as long ago as 1939 a committee set up by the Minister of Transport, under the chairmanship of Lord Alness, advocated tests for alcohol in the blood.
In Norway, a driver with a blood alcohol level of more than 0·05 per cent. is considered to be under the influence of drink, and the punishment is a prison sentence unless there are exceptional extenuating circumstances. The usual sentence for a first offence is three or four weeks' imprisonment. In Sweden, if a driver has a blood alcohol level between 0·05 per cent. and 0·15 per cent. the normal punishment is a fine, related to his income. If the blood alcohol concentration is over 0·15 per cent—which is roughly equivalent to three double whiskies—a prison sentence is imposed unless there are extenuating circumstances.
We shall not achieve the object of the Government and the Minister in relation to Clauses 1 and 2 unless we decide quickly what percentage of alcohol is considered safe for a person to consume before driving. We should not leave the decision to the courts. If we do there is likely to be unfairness of treatment as between one driver and another. We shall not create the required feeling that it is wrong to be in charge of a car if one has been drinking.
I repeat that it is no use taking the steps provided in the Bill, and many similar steps, to improve driving by encouraging people to take advanced driving tests, and so forth, unless the road building programme is dramatically stepped up. This year we are subsidising the railways to the tune of £150 million, although it is a form of transport which fewer and fewer people are using. About 13 people are using road transport to every one using the railways, at the moment, and the motorists are paying taxes amounting to £700 million a year. But the amount to be spent on road construction is only about £100 million a year—or £540 million over the next five years.
By 1970, we shall have 17 million cars on the road—nearly double the present number. Already, we have the most congested roads in Europe. I do not see how we shall be able to reduce the number of accidents, never mind the

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percentage—which may have been falling all the time—unless something much more drastic is done. The present programme is totally insufficient. For instance, only the other day I noticed, from an Answer given by the Minister, that when the M.36—through Lancashire and down to Staffordshire—is built there will still be a gap of about 50 miles between its southern end and the beginning of the M.1.
The legal processes are not completed yet, I understand, for the linking up of the M.1 with the road going up from Staffordshire to Lancashire, which should be completed next year. Therefore, all the traffic from around London which wants to go up to Lancashire will pile up the M.1 and then go on a narrow neck of, presumably, the old A.5 until it gets off it again just south of Staffordshire. I cannot imagine the chaos and accidents that that will cause.
We have the same kind of thing in Lancashire in respect of the Preston—Lancaster bypass—a horrible stretch of road. It is not the Minister's fault if he is not given the money. Until the money is provided, he cannot get on with the job and build an adequate system.
It is not only a question of motorways. Segregation of traffic is required where-ever it can possibly be done—between different forms of traffic, between people and traffic, and between traffic going in opposite directions. Until many more trunk roads are divided into dual carriageways we shall still have head-on crashes, with disastrous loss of life. This is all part of the business of road safety.
I am sure that I do not need to convince the Minister that this is desirable, but it is absurd that, in spite of endless debates in the House, often arising from Private Members' Motions which demand a bigger and bigger road programme, we still have a programme which, all the experts agree, is going forward at only half the rate at which it should be.
In commending the Bill, I would just add that at the same time as we press on with it, and increase safety, we must speed up the road-building programme until it is much faster than at the moment.
8.2 p.m.
Mr. Ronald Bell: The figures of road casualties which have been referred to today have emphasised the importance of the subject of road safety. Several hon. Members on both sides have rightly pointed out that our record in road casualties, computed in terms of vehicle miles, has improved steadily since before the war. I am not sure, though, whether it has been pointed out that the road casualty figures are substantially lower in Great Britain than in almost any other crowded industrial country. That is an extraordinarily fine record to have achieved on our roads, particularly since they are probably the most crowded in the world.
I mention that at the outset, because it is a picture which is not sufficiently painted. The fact is that, given the conditions on our roads, our record has been quite remarkable—something of which we should be proud. Not only do Ministers of Transport share the entitlement to praise but, I think, the motorists have, plainly, not been the mad dogs which they are sometimes alleged to be. Rather, they have been responsible citizens, making mistakes just as people do, but comparing very favourably indeed with motorists in any other country.
In particular, we have a remarkable achievement in the way in which we have reduced the numbers of children killed on the roads. Figures in that respect have been given. However, I think that my right hon. Friend was perhaps a little unfair to adults in his speech. Although it is perfectly true that it is more difficult to train adults in road safety, it is also true that the middle of life—the period of vigour of life—is an almost accident-free period.
Pedestrian accidents are particularly a danger of old age. It is people over 60, more than any others, who suffer from road accidents. Formerly, it was true that the children were almost as bad, but we have done a great deal for them. It is much more difficult to do anything very helpful for the old people. One can appreciate why they constitute so large a proportion of the number of people killed and injured on the roads.
I give emphasis to these facts because I am always a little mistrustful of anything which looks like the browbeating

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of motorists in the interest of getting even better figures. I think that we can perhaps do better, and I welcome some of the proposals in the Bill, but I agreed very much with what was said just now by the hon. Member for Bolton, West (Mr. Holt), that the main contribution to improving our figures still further must come from the development of our road programme. It is the separation of motor traffic from pedestrians, increasing the provision of dual-carriageways—
Mr. Marples: That is being done.
Mr. Bell: I know that it is being done; I am not saying this in terms of reproach to my right hon. Friend.
Mr. Marples: The provision is increasing.
Mr. Bell: I merely emphasise that a contribution to road safety will come from those measures of road development which are in hand but which I should like to see going forward even more quickly than they are. [Interruption.] I do not want to interrupt any conversations which are taking place in the House at the moment, and I hope that I shall not be guilty of doing so. As I have said, I think that that is where the main contribution will come from. I agree that some will come from other aspects.
I have some doubts about certain points in the Bill. First of all, I would refer to the two Clauses about drink. I am sure that drink causes a great many road accidents, and I want to see that sort of thing stopped as far as possible. Nevertheless, I am not happy about the definition in Clause 1. After all, my right hon. Friend said that information coming to him from his expert advisers was to the effect that any alcoholic drinking before driving impaired the standard of driving. I can well believe that to be true.
However, if the definition which we put in Clause 1 is that a criminal offence shall be committed if the ability to drive properly has been impaired, I feel that courts will be faced with a very difficult problem. Does that mean that any drinking will be a criminal offence? I speak without any personal interest about this because I have been a non-drinker
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for very many years and am not likely to be faced with this problem. But I really think that one has to be careful to be fair to a large section of the community who, unlike myself, like to take alcoholic drink. Magistrates have a difficult job in administering the law, and if they are to hear expert evidence that any consumption of alcohol impairs the ability to drive, will they not ask themselves just what test they are to apply?
This is a difficult matter. Speaking from such professional experience as I have had of motoring cases, I honestly do not think that my right hon. Friend has been correctly informed that courts or juries are troubled by confusing the word "incapable", which appears in the present definition, with the phrase "drunk and incapable". The present phrase is "incapable of having proper control". If one has to have a definition in words which have to be interpreted by fallible human beings, I should have thought that was as good as any.
We shall have to look into this in Committee. I will not take up more time on it now, except just to make the comment that I think there is a great temptation on the part of those who take a great interest in motoring law and motoring matters generally to feel that they must get ever more convictions. That may be in some way a defect in the administration of justice. [Interruption.] I may have exaggerated a little, but I certainly know that in the debates on the 1956 Bill, particularly those in another place where Lord Goddard played a part, there was much reference to the number of people who slipped through the courts because of the unwillingness of juries to convict. [Interruption.] I am not saying anything against the Minister. I am saying that Lord Goddard said that in the debates on the 1956 Bill in another place, and I have no doubt that it has been said again on this Bill.
Mr. Glenvil Hall: Lord Goddard is not the only one. Sir Gerald Dodson, the former Recorder of London, has gone on record as having expressed the view that juries are very often incapable of really judging in these matters because they feel that they themselves might be in the position of the defendant.
Mr. Bell: I am glad to have that confirmation from the right hon. Member for Colne Valley (Mr. Glenvil Hall). I think that it is true that many people have said this and that there is the approach to the subject that we must stop up the escape holes for people who are charged. That is all right if one decides in a sober and relaxed way—
Mr. Marples: Sober?
Mr. Bell:—that people who are guilty are not being convicted. I merely say that one has to be extremely careful that one does not set out to make sure that almost everybody who is charged is convicted by making the definiton of the offence all-embracing. That is my point on the drunkenness aspect.
On the question of automatic disqualification, again I am not happy about it for the reasons given by hon. Members on both sides of the House. I share the dislike which has been expressed for automatic minimum penalties. They are to be resorted to only if they cannot be avoided, and resorted to with the utmost discretion. Here we are saying that when a man has been convicted of three of the offences stated in Part II of the First Schedule within a period of three years, he must be disqualified. My hon. Friend says that they could all be on the same day.
Mr. Marples: That would be a bad driver.
Mr. Bell: I listened to some parts of my right hon. Friend's speech without interrupting.
Mr. Marples: Only a few parts.
Mr. Bell: If one looks at the offences stated in Part II of the First Schedule, they are the less serious ones. The more serious ones are in Part I of the First Schedule, and three offences under either Part will lead to automatic disqualification. Hon. Members have referred to the case of a professional driver who in three years will normally drive as much as or more than an amateur driver will drive in ten years, so it is already a great hardship for the professional driver to have the same test of time applied to him as that applied to the casual driver.
When one looks at the nature of the offences many of them will be for speed
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ing. I remember that in the 1956 Bill it was proposed at first, until the House altered it, that two offences of speeding should lead to automatic disqualification. I am afraid that the pressure from the Department is always for greater strictness. That was cut out of the Bill in Committee. It was also resisted in another place where even Lord Goddard, who is really quite the flail of the motorists, said that he thought it absurd and that everyone else would think it absurd that a man should be disqualified for two offences of what he called "mere speeding". The noble Lord went on to say—he was at that time Lord Chief Justice—that he drove to the courts every morning through the Royal Parks, in which at that time the speed limit was 20 m.p.h., that his chauffeur always drove at 25 m.p.h. and was passed by everyone else on the road. I mentioned this to my right hon. Friend because there we had the Lord Chief Justice of England at the time saying that his car every morning exceeded the speed limit by 5 m.p.h. and was passed by every other car on the road, and saying also, in debate in another place, that it was really preposterous to disqualify people automatically for two offences of mere speeding. My right hon. Friend proposes in the Bill to disqualify automatically everyone who has three offences of speeding in three years. I say to him that that does not make sense even to the ordinary driver, and it certainly does not to the professional driver.
I have no axe to grind. I have been extremely lucky in that I have driven for twenty-five years and have never been charged with a driving offence, but which of us can say that he always observes the speed limit? I notice that when my right hon. Friend was making his opening speech he said that since he had become Minister of Transport he had always observed the speed limit. The inference is that before he became Minister of Transport he did not. It is true of all of us. Whether one gets caught or not on occasions when driving at 35 or 36 m.p.h. is partly a matter of luck, partly a matter of vigilance, but not a matter of virtue. I say to my right hon. Friend that one has to be a little practical about this in trying to get the good will of the motoring community as well as in trying to make a

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contribution to reducing accidents on the roads. I hope that in Committee we can improve this.
"Special reasons" have also been referred to by a number of hon. Members. I hope that we can undo the harm done by judicial decisions in the past, which have virtually said that "special reasons" in practice do not exist. I am certain that that was not what Parliament meant when it put them into the road traffic legislation in the 'thirties. What Parliament meant, I am sure, was that in certain cases a person might be disqualified unless the court for special reasons thought otherwise, and that it used "special reasons" as just a convenient phrase to indicate what it meant. It has since been held by the courts that what Parliament really meant was that a person must be disqualified unless some quite fantastic state of affairs was shown to have existed. I think it a great pity that that sensible and practical discretion should be taken away from the courts in that way.
I hope that during the Committee stage discussions we shall be able to consider a new Clause, designed to get rid of the offence of killing by dangerous driving. The right hon. Member for Vauxhall (Mr. Strauss) and I opposed the introduction of such an offence vigorously during the Committee stage proceedings on the 1956 Measure. There were some splendid debates at that time, but we were beaten by a short head. I hope that I shall have the support of the right hon. Gentleman when we renew the battle during the discussions on this Bill. The creation of such an offence is absurd and illogical. It has no merit and was designed simply to try to catch out a motorist whom a jury would not convict because it did not think him guilty.
I was glad that the hon. Member for Leeds, West (Mr. C. Pannell) mentioned dogs. I supported the hon. Member on that matter during the debates in 1956. We feel strongly about accidents which are caused by the consumption of alcohol, but far more accidents are caused by dogs running loose on the road. People may argue which way they like about statistics and about the hidden cases of accidents caused by alcohol which do not appear in the figures of prosecutions, but, whatever people do with statistics, the fact is that there are
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more accidents resulting from dogs on the road than from drivers having taken drink.
I looked up the statistics for my own County of Bucks and I found that, according to the police records, one accident in every eleven was caused because a dog was running loose on the road. It is a very serious matter. People do not feel so strongly about this reason for accidents as they do about accidents caused by drink and this is because in this country the dog is the "golden calf", and pet animals can do no wrong. If we were more sensible we should apply to dog-owners—who allow their animals to run about on the roads where they may be the cause of one of the fantastic number of accidents due to dogs—the same sort of penalties which we talk about imposing on people who drive while they are drunk.
The hon. Member for Leeds, West and the hon. Member for Bradford, East (Mr. McLeavy) both referred to the Committee stage proceedings on this Bill and hoped that the Whips would be off. I cannot remember that during the Committee stage proceedings in 1956 there was much trouble with the Whips. I do not know whether they were on or off, but I do know that it is the only Committee on a Government Bill on which I have served where I was told by the Whips after the first few meetings that I need not turn up unless I wanted to. I think, therefore, that we can look forward to happy and friendly discussions during the Committee stage, where all views will be widely canvassed and where my right hon. Friend will be listening to them in a friendly and eager way, anxious to meet the reasonable desires of hon. Members and to excise the faults in his own Bill.
Having said all these quite critical things, may I end by saying that when making a speech on Second Reading one does say such things, and that during the Committee stage discussions one picks out those things with which one does not agree, and that we shall do. I congratulate my right hon. Friend on this Bill and also upon all that he has done during his tenure of office as Minister. He has made a great contribution not only to road safety but to the general convenience of all traffic. I think that this is a valuable Measure. It will have

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my support. But before I vote for its Third Reading I shall give my right hon. Friend a lot of trouble during the Committee stage, and I look forward to doing so.
8.22 p.m.
Mr. A. V. Hilton: Like other hon. Members, I give a general welcome to this most important Bill. During the past year or so the Minister of Transport has been "under fire" perhaps more than any other member of the Government, and it is pleasant that for once the right hon. Gentleman should have some nice things said about him.
This is a Bill over which hon. Members on both side of the House may be united, because we are all concerned about the tremendous number of road accidents which leave a trail of dead and injured in their wake. Anything which can be done to reduce this alarming number of accidents will be welcomed, not only by hon. Members but by people all over the country.
I wish to follow up the point made by the hon. Member for Bolton, West (Mr. Holt), although I am not interested in "Lib-Lab" pacts. The hon. Member said that in a way the Minister was responsible for the tremendous number of road accidents because he had not been provided with sufficient money to enable the roads to be brought up to the required standard. I can speak with authority on this matter, as I am a member of the Highways Committee of the Norfolk County Council. There is no doubt that many of the roads in Norfolk are not up to the standard required to carry the traffic which uses them. I refer to the minor roads. We continue to ask the Minister to give us more money to spend on them, but we do not often get any extra help from him.
The trunk roads are under the control of the Minister, and the county councils act as his agents. There are a number of accident "black spots" on the trunk roads in Norfolk, and again we have pleaded with the Minister for the money which is necessary to eradicate these black spots. We are prepared to do the work if the right hon Gentleman will supply the "lolly". I hope that
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the Minister will appreciate that this is not a criticism, but a plea to him to bear this matter in mind. "Give us the money; we will do the work".
While on the subject of roads, there is another point which I should like to put to the Minister; and upon which I am sure that all hon. Members will agree with me. Much of the new road construction is of a very high quality, but the surface, when finished, is shiny and slippery, so that when there is a frost these roads become veritable "skating rinks". This has been the cause of numerous "pile-ups" during frosty weather. Have the Minister and his advisers given sufficient thought to this matter? The right hon. Gentleman will know as well as anyone of the tremendous number of accidents which may result from this sort of road surface at certain times of the year.
Mr. Marples: If the hon. Member will give me particulars of any road which has recently been resurfaced in the wrong manner, I shall look into the question I can assure him that we are closely in touch with the Road Research Laboratory on the specifications for road surfacing.
Mr. Hilton: I am obliged to the Minister for that assurance. I will send him some information. I hope that he will be able to deal with it.
I notice that my right hon. Friend the Member for Colne Valley (Mr. Glenvil Hall) has just left the Chamber after sitting here for a long time during the debate. He, in particular, raised the question of the danger of driving while drinking. For the past couple of years, especially at Christmas time, the Minister has made special appeals to the public, such as, "If you drink, don't drive; if you drive, don't drink." I believe that those appeals were very successful, although we are still much concerned at the high rate of accidents at Christmas time.
I am sure that, as my right hon. Friend said, drink is the cause of far too many road accidents. I am pleased to see that provision is made in the Bill to deal with those who drink to excess and become involved in accidents. As a magistrate, I welcome the provision dealing with disqualification. I am the last person in the world to wish to

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deprive anyone of personal freedom, but I believe that people who drive whilst under the influence of drink are not only a danger to the public, but also a danger to themselves. They ought to be saved from this folly. Therefore, I am glad that more stringent measures are to be taken and I welcome this provision for disqualification.
In these days, for many people who drive when it is not safe for them to do so, a fine is not a big punishment. Many people can pay a fine of £50 or £100 and it makes no difference to them. Imprisonment is a worse punishment, but to disqualify them from holding a licence is perhaps the greatest deterrent of all. Therefore, I welcome this provision in the Bill.
Something else in the Bill which I welcome is the Clause which says that the age for a driver driving a vehicle with a trailer behind it shall be raised from 17 to 21. I do not have to remind the House of the great danger of that sort of conveyance, especially in the summer in seaside areas where we see people with not very powerful cars towing big caravans. That can be very dangerous. This change is a move in the right direction. In the summer particularly, when caravans abound on the roads, the roads are full of other traffic. This suggestion made by the Minister is a wise one.
Although welcoming that, I am convinced that the Minister has made a mistake in his proposal to reduce from 17 to 16 the age at which a person can drive a tractor on the road. It does not make sense that the same Minister who, quite rightly, decides that a youngster of 17 is too young to drive a car drawing a trailer, should say that a youngster of 16 is old enough to drive a tractor on the road drawing a trailer. A tractor can be an extremely dangerous vehicle on the road if the wrong person is at the wheel. I cannot understand why the Minister has made this change, which does not seem logical.
I shall remind the House of some of the dangers of tractor driving. The official figures of accidents on farms during the past year have just been reported. There were 141 people killed on farms last year. That is 32 more than in the previous year, although there was a reduction in the labour force of nearly 20,000,
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I quote those figures to give some idea of the danger that a tractor can be. Of those accidents, the major hazard was caused by overturned tractors. If boys of 16 are to be allowed to drive tractors on the road, often with trailers, laden combines and other heavy equipment behind them, it seems only common sense to say that the danger on the roads will be increased.
It has been suggested that this could be a form of cheap labour. I do not agree with that, because at the most there could be only 12s. a week difference in the wage rate for a boy of 16 and for a boy of 17. I am not complaining about a 16-year-old boy driving while on the farm—I should be out of order to discuss that; I do not want to pursue that question—but I am positive that a 16-year-old boy should not be allowed to drive on the roads. The present age limit should remain. We have all been young. We know the temptation one has when young to put one's foot down a little harder. If the Minister shelved this proposal, and allowed the age limit to remain at 17, he would do a good thing for the farming industry.
Apart from the few criticisms I have made, I regard the Bill, generally speaking, as a very good one, spoiled only in this one respect. I appeal to the Minister to think again about this. If, by allowing the age limit to remain at 17, he can prevent a few accidents and save only one life, it will be well worth doing.
8.35 p.m.
Mr. R. W. Elliott: I listened with interest to the speech of the hon. Member for Norfolk, South-West (Mr. Hilton). I agree with much of what he said. He finished on a farming point. As a farmer, I am inclined to agree that nowadays there is considerable danger on our roads with tractors—not, as the hon. Member reasonably said, because of the tractors themselves, but mainly because of the enormous implements they draw. I wonder if there is much difference between the proficiency of a boy of 16 and that of a boy of 17. Nevertheless, I have some sympathy for the hon. Member's point of view. I also have much sympathy with his point about drivers drawing trailers behind cars. These, especially in summer, seem to be very dangerous vehicles. The hon. Member's

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point about the unequal effect of fines on certain sections of society was also reasonable.
I may be the last speaker on this side of the House in this interesting debate. I very much want to commend, not only this Government, but previous Governments, for all that has been done to improve our roads so that motorists and pedestrians can proceed in reasonable safety. Although a number of hon. Members have been mildly critical of my right hon. Friend, I heartily commend his efforts on road safety since he has been in office. I commend his Christmas party campaign, which did a lot of good. I hope he will go on with it. I am sure that it succeeded in making the public understand the grave and extra danger of festive periods like Christmas.
There are many ways in which danger on the roads can be overcome. Engineering has been mentioned. I recently had a very good illustration of the great part engineering can play in road safety when I was shown an accident map of the Preston area. It was very distressing to look at, because every red headed pin indicated a fatal accident over the past two years. But there was not one red headed pin on the Preston by-pass. This is a first class example of the part engineering has played in road safety. New roads and improvements to roads do much to help.
The hon. Member for Norfolk, South-West spoke of black spots in Norfolk. We all have them, but this Government and this Minister have done much to eliminate black spots. There is much more to be done, but a great deal is now going on and has gone on during the past few years. If we could measure the effect of this on road safety it would be proved that it is considerable.
A reasonable tribute has been paid to the part education authorities have played. The police in many counties by their courteous approach have done much to make the roads safer.
Much has been said about the shock effect of signs, and about the fact that the shock of a certain poster soon wears off. As I approach the City of Newcastle-upon-Tyne I never fail to notice a large sign just outside the city which reads: "We love our children; drive carefully"
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I think that it is a good sign—probably because I have four children—and I am sure that signs like mat play an important part in our safety provisions.
The modern motorist has many privileges. The motor car is a remarkably efficient means of getting from one place to another, and the improvement of roads and road surfaces in the last few years has made driving much more pleasant, I believe that they also increase safety. The modern motorist, having all these new roads and these better driving conditions, must now accept a strengthening of road discipline. Life is a game of chance, and one sometimes wonders whether it will be possible to survive its many hazards. I can think of no more irritating thought than that my life might be prematurely ended by a drunken driver.
It is, therefore, reasonable that the Government should now introduce legislation to deal with drunken driving. That legislation has not been quickly introduced; we have thought of it for years. A great deal has been said about the social habits of the nation, but the increasing death rate on the roads and the obvious fact that drink plays its part in it makes it quite plain that we must do something about it. Clause 2 is necessary and desirable, and I welcome it.
It is easy to pick out human weaknesses, but one that is fairly common to most motorists is that we all believe we can hold our liquor. We vary, of course, in our "safe" capacity. Age, size, weight and many other factors produce many variations in judgment and behaviour, but in the face of our own peculiar optimism that we are all right in our cups, that we know our own capacity, there must be some means of measuring the quantity of alcohol in the human body and having that measurement used as evidence against us. At the same time, it is desirable to have that evidence influencing rather than in itself leading to conviction, and I should like to see Clause 1 somewhat modified. There should also be the need to produce evidence of inability to drive.
There has been some hesitation in determining the type of test of the amount of alcohol in the human body, and it is quite right that the Medical Research Council and the Home Office should have got together to decide what

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test would be reasonably accurate and could contribute to justice being done, even if not ensuring it. I should like my right hon. Friend to look again at the test methods, especially the breathalyser, about which I still have certain doubts as to its efficiency.
We should recognise that this very intricate machine will be in the hands of policemen rather than trained chemists. I would hesitate, too, to commend entirely the blood and urine tests, unless they are made, as my hon. Friend the Member for Twickenham (Mr. Gresham Cooke) suggested, in hospitals or police stations. Another reasonable suggestion is that a defendant should be provided with a certificate from the public analyst.
In the ranks of the professional drivers there is considerable concern about Clause 3. I am wondering whether offences may occur under Part II of the First Schedule which might lead to unjust disqualification. There can be no doubt that the fear of the loss of one's licence is the strongest incentive towards safety, but road haulage workers, bus drivers, commercial travellers and many others are concerned at the possibility of the loss of their livelihood by the proposed Measure.
Of the convictions covered by this part of the Bill some consideration should be given in Committee to the circumstances of the offender in relation to the actual offence. This part of the Bill seems drastically to limit the discretion of the courts. I have a great deal of confidence in the judiciary and the days are past—and one learns this from the various cases that have taken place—when one need say, "There but for the grace of God go I." In the face of the existing toll on the roads juries have become more responsible, and I know of magistrates who are very severe—and reasonably so—when they have before them a driver who has been drunk in charge. Nevertheless, I should like to see special reasons being applied to the person concerned as well as to the facts surrounding the case.
The Bill is designed to make our roads safer, and some useful additions might have been made to it. For instance, unsafe vehicles must represent a tremendous danger. I welcome, as must
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other hon. Members, the fact that old vehicles are to be tested when they reach the age of seven rather than ten years, and I hope that we will make even further progress in this direction in the years to come. An interesting point was made by the hon. Member for Twickenham concerning vehicles which have been involved in accidents. My hon. Friend referred to these vehicles having been written off and later reappearing once again on the roads, and he referred to a vehicle owned by his son. Perhaps some form of control in this direction might be applied by the insurance companies.
Advanced driving tests are considerably effective towards improving driving standards. Public service vehicle drivers must pass an advanced test, but what about the heavy road haulage vehicle drivers? I cannot help feeling that it would be desirable for drivers of very heavy vehicles which carry great loads to pass an additional test. I sometimes wonder when I see cattle trucks how many more layers of sheep can be piled on their vehicles. It used to be that an average load of cattle from, say, Northumberland was about 100 sheep. I am told that about 500 sheep can be carried in present-day vehicles.
There is a vast difference between between driving a lorry laden with 500 sheep and driving an 8 h.p. car, and I would therefore like the Minister to consider the possibilitiy of an extra test for the heavy vehicle driver. After all, increased overhead costs in the road haulage industry have meant bigger loads, but still in the charge of one man.
A reasonable suggestion was made during a recent meeting of the North-Eastern Accident Prevention Federation which might have applied in the case mentioned by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Vauxhall (Mr. Strauss) when he expressed fear about the motor cycle being a potential instrument of danger. We all agree about this; that the motor cycle is dangerous, for it is the chosen vehicle, for economic and other reasons, of the young driver. The view expressed at this federation meeting was that when people pass their driving tests the Ministry of Transport should make their names available to local authorities which might then write to the new

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licence holders and, while congratulating them, mention that they are entering a period of extreme danger as very new drivers. I thought that was a very reasonable suggestion which ought to be followed.
I conclude by commending this Bill which I believe is a substantial step forward in the enormous battle against death on the road. I am sure that it will receive during the Committee stage, as it has had during the Second Reading debate, the commendation of both sides of the House. I look forward to its reaching the Statute Book.
8.50 p.m.
Mr. George Darling: I intend to speak very briefly. I understand that my hon. Friend the Member for Bermondsey (Mr. Mellish) wishes to wind up for the Opposition at about five minutes past nine, and the short time that I shall occupy will probably enable another hon. Member to speak before my hon. Friend does.
I agree with every word that the hon. Member for Newcastle-upon-Tyne, North (Mr. R. W. Elliott) has said, and I shall not, therefore, follow him in any of the matters which he raised. I wish to refer to commercial vehicles. We require much stricter control over the repair and maintenance of commercial vehicles. The Chief Constable of Sheffield has recently made a statement as a result of the spot checks that have been made in the city of all types of vehicles during the past twelve months. He found that one vehicle in every six is defective in some way or another, and this includes commercial vehicles as well as private motor cars.
We have all seen in the newspapers in recent months reports of appalling accidents which have been caused by heavy commercial vehicles. We must have a much stricter code of repair and maintenance of these vehicles. Some of them are operated by small firms that have no garages or facilities for repair and maintenance. They are parked in streets or on parking lots, and many of them are a complete menace to the community because they are not kept in a proper state of repair. Some of them are parked outside terrace houses in my constituency, and they are not only a menace when they are being moved about
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but are a nuisance when they are parked. Some are parked on pavements, thus cutting off light from the houses. In many cases repairs are carried out on the streets and the revving of engines, noise, fumes and dirt cause an intolerable nuisance to the residents who live nearby. It seems to me that there are omissions from this Bill, and that this is one of them.
I understand from the Chief Constable of Sheffield that he is allowed to ban parking in a street but that the ban must apply to all vehicles. He cannot discriminate between heavy commercial vehicles and cars. Some of the residents have their own motor cars, and, as these terrace houses have no garages, the residents are allowed to park their cars in the streets. If the chief constable wants to ban the parking of heavy lorries he also has to stop the residents parking their cars, which he does not want to do for it would be very unfair. Therefore, provision should be made in the Bill to prevent the parking of heavy vehicles in residential streets.
I wish to make two suggestions to the Parliamentary Secretary for his consideration. First, licences should not be granted for commercial vehicles which do not operate from garages where repairs and maintenance can be carried out. In other words, no licence should be granted to commercial operators—this applies to coach operators too—who have not got bases from which to work where repairs and maintenance can be carried out.
Secondly, the Bill should provide authority to the police to ban this parking of heavy vehicles, particularly vehicles owned by firms which have no proper garage accommodation. It is an intolerable nuisance and ought to be stopped.
8.55 p.m.
Mr. W. R. Rees-Davies: I think that I am the only speaker in the debate today who is not really happy about the Bill, for several reasons. I spend my working life dealing with accidents. The House may recall that, about six years ago, I set up a national council which was concerned with safety, and it was only with great personal regret that, two years ago, I felt that I had not time to carry on my work with it I have given a

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great many radio and television broadcasts and lectures on industrial safety, home safety and road safety, and it is no exaggeration to say that not a week of my working life passes without my having to deal professionally with at least two or three cases involving safety. Last year, when I thought that this Bill was coming before the House, I personally analysed 200 of my own cases.
The real issue before the House is not one on which we can afford sentiment. It is a scientific issue in the first place, and thereafter it is a legal issue. The question confronting the House can be stated simply. Will the Bill reduce accidents? That is the test. If it will not, how best can we reduce accidents? Further, as a separate question, how far can we reduce the extent of injury arising from accidents?
In my opinion, Clause 1 will not lead to the prevention of a single accident. The existing test at law is perfectly satisfactory. Most of the judges and chairmen of quarter sessions in and around the London area prefer the existing test. I have seen hundreds of cases in the course of my experience and I have no reason to think that the change which we seek to enact by Clause 1, to impose a test of impairment, will improve the administration of the law.
Until about 1955 or 1956, it was quite plain that juries tended to acquit in motor cases. There was no doubt about it. In past years, in cases involving dangerous driving or driving while being to some extent under the influence of alcohol, the tendency was for juries to acquit. The experience today of those who, as I do, spend their life in this work is to the contrary.
The general view now of the great majority of members of the Bar engaged in these cases is that magistrates, chairmen and juries have quite rightly toughened up. Why?—very largely because of the admirable work done by my right hon. Friend and previous Ministers in bringing to the public mind a realisation of the inherent dangers on the roads.
How best should we deal with the problem? First, I believe that it is vital to have a really good propaganda campaign. If I may say so, I can think of no one better qualified for the task than my right hon. Friend. I sincerely
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mean that. I can think of no organisation less fitted for the task than Ro.S.P.A. It was very largely because of that organisation's inability to understand public relations that I started the safety council to which I have referred. All the best posters have been those produced by that safety council, the picture of the widow and all the rest. It is necessary to use a very wide range of posters and advertisements of that kind.
It is necessary also to bring home to the public the dangers at Christmas time and other times and do everything we can in that rspect. It is necessary to have good schools of instruction, not only because they teach drivers well but because they are seen at work throughout the country. There is work to be done in regard to the construction of motor vehicles, the bumpers and other attachments, which may reduce the extent of injuries. All these things should be looked at.
Turning to the provisions in the Bill, from about Clause 6 to the end they are all admirable, although there may be a few Committee points to be dealt with. As for the other Clauses, the purport of the Bill is to say that we in the House of Commons no longer trust our judges, no longer trust our magistrates and no longer trust our juries. That is what this Bill is saying. It is saying that in terms in this way. It is saying that we insist upon an automatic disqualification, because we do not think that the courts will be sufficiently severe in the punishments they are likely to mete out.
In 1930, when we introduced the automatic disqualification, for driving under the influence of drink, for a period of twelve months, I always thought that that was very unfortunate, because it would become the automatic maximum. We made it a twelve months' disqualification, and, automatically, that became the period which was accepted. I always thought that it should be abolished. I should like to see a complete discretion to disqualify by the magistrates and by the judge at quarter sessions in all cases where there is any dangerous driving, or where, on a second offence, there is careless driving.
May I deal with one more important point? In Clause 3 (1), instead of the

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word "shall", I would apply a discretion. I should like to develop that argument, but I will leave it for the moment. Under Clause 3 (2), where we have a discretion given to the magistrate, two of these offences do not involve safety at all in many cases. They are offences Nos. 10 and 12. Failure to comply with traffic directions may have no element of road safety involved in the circumstances of the case.
If, for example, a motorist is waiting at a "Halt" sign at a given time, if he is waiting at a red light at a given time, if he looks both ways and sees that the road is clear and then crosses, notwithstanding the fact that he is crossing against the red light and he is breaching a statutory duty, it may not, of necessity, involve road safety at all. It is put there to guide and assist him. It may be that if he goes across he may do it at his peril, but he does it quite deliberately. Therefore, it does not necessarily involve an offence which is against road safety.
Mr. Marples: To which offence is my hon. Friend referring?
Mr. Rees-Davies: To Part II (12)—failure to comply with a traffic direction.
Mr. Marples: On what page is that?
Mr. Rees-Davies: It is offence No. 19.
Mr. Marples: I am sorry, but my hon. Friend has got the offence wrong.
Mr. William Ross (Kilmarnock): It is No. 13.
Mr. Rees-Davies: I see, it is No. 13.
At any rate, in that part, there are jostled up together dangerous driving and careless driving, two perfectly clear offences which are mixed up with speeding and traffic directions, which are not in themselves necessarily matters of road safety. We legislate for them to protect the public, but they are not of necessity so.
I now turn to another aspect—the provisions of Clause 2 (3). This subsection is, I believe, a complete waste of time. It provides that for a third offence a motorist must be disqualified for six months. This is something which juries
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will not stomach. They will acquit, and magistrates will acquit, because they will not let somebody be disqualified for six months because he has been found guilty of two trivial offences before.
I will give an example from my own experience. One night, I was stopped when driving along the Mall. I was exceeding the 20-mile-an-hour speed limit, but I had already stopped at the light at Trafalgar Square going into the Mall. Admittedly, I started on the amber light. There was a police constable there, but I did not notice his hand stretched out, so that I did not comply with his signal to stop. The policeman called out and, finally, I did stop. I was guilty of three offences on that occasion—crossing the light, driving at over 20 m.p.h. and not complying with the policeman's traffic direction.
Under the provisions of the Bill, if a motorist were charged with three technical offences which were committed on the same day, and if the first two offences were proved, he could be disqualified for six months on the third. We must look at this matter carefully. When we come to consider it in Committee, we must try to ensure a just balance between the needs of road safety and fairness to the driver.
We have heard from my hon. Friend the Member for Bedfordshire, South (Mr. Cole), who—and I say this with no discourtesy—has put the case of the temperance lobby, as he is fully entitled to do. I am putting forward the purely professional view of someone who has had to study accidents. There are parts of the Bill which are unfortunate and which can be remedied in Committee. I hope that they will be. In 1956, we spent a long time on the Road Traffic Act of that year. Now we must deal with the subject again. If the matters to which I have referred can be put right in dispassionate debate, this will be a good Bill.
9.7 p.m.
Mr. R. J. Mellish: The Minister can be a proud and happy man at the reception which the Bill has received. This must be one of the few occasions when he can honestly feel that way about a Bill that he has introduced. It would be churlish of me if I did not join right hon. and hon. Gentlemen on

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both sides of the House who have said that we recognise that this is a genuine and sincere attempt to try to deal with some—and I emphasise the word "some"—of these problems.
None of us can ignore the value of some of the remarks which have been put forward by the hon. Member for the Isle of Thanet (Mr. Rees-Davies). We are fortunate that the Bill has been before the House of Lords on two occasions—a very rare occurrence. Those of us who have done our homework have read some of the debates in another place, and what the hon. Gentleman has just said reflects remarks made by Lord Denning, who threw grave doubts on Clause 1. To an ordinary layman like myself, these comments of Lord Denning were worth reading and trying to understand. In Committee the Minister will have legal advice with him and we shall hear more about this matter.
The Bill shows the Minister at his best—as a man who is keen about roads and road safety. Whatever critical remarks I have made about him in the past—they have been many and there will be plenty more—in dealing with roads he has tried hard to match the problems of the 1960s. If he has not been able to match them sufficiently, it is because he is so limited in his money resources. With what he has been given, however, he has tried to have a go.
I should like to make the right hon. Gentleman the Minister for Roads—no more and no less. In dealing with that problem alone, there is probably more than enough for one man and one Department. I would include, of course, not only road safety but also planning and traffic. Such a Minister would have to be almost all-powerful. We live in a democracy which has so many checks and balances in order to ensure that the individual can be heard that, as a consequence, any Minister in charge of road development, planning and safety, is given so many reasons why he should do nothing in certain matters by so many people who try to stop him in the good old name of democracy that nothing gets done.
I said in a debate last week on the reorganisation of London's local government, when I spoke from this Front Bench, that I believed that traffic and traffic planning ought to cover a much
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wider area than is proposed by the Government. I would make the area as big as the Abercrombie area of about 3,400 miles, and I would make the Minister chairman of the committee with overall powers. I do not say that he should deal with the matter entirely on his own with no checks—Parliament should have certain rights to discuss some of his schemes—but at the end of the day, I would give him the right to do the job.
As my right hon. Friend the Member for Vauxhall (Mr. Strauss) said, we on this side speak for ourselves in this debate. Road safety and associated matters cut across parties. No one party can claim to have a special prerogative about safety on the roads. I speak for myself, and I am one of those who believe in giving the Minister more power to enable him to do a better job.
I entirely agree with the hon. Member for Bolton, West (Mr. Holt). It is good to hear the Liberal Party's voice now and again on these matters. When one considers the future, this is one of the frightening things. In a few years' time, when there will be twice the present number of vehicles on the roads, there will be twice the number of heartaches.
The other Monday, when we had an unofficial strike in London, I was driving a car. I must have been mad to be doing so on a day like that, but there it was. There was so much traffic on the roads that everything went wrong. Everything devised by traffic engineering was not worth the paper that it was written on. Every roundabout was blocked. Every bridge was blocked. Every road worth calling a road was blocked, and cars were delayed in traffic jams for three or four hours. People in vehicles coming from the north over the bridges were told that they would have to be diverted. That is the sort of thing which could happen unless we have real planning and a Minister responsible for roads in the coming years. Therefore, I say in my opening remarks to the Minister that I think that we should give him more power to his elbow.
However, the Bill only just starts to touch the fringe of the problem. The one big question which has been posed in this debate is whether the Bill will cut down the number of casualties on our

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roads. If it cuts the number by only one it will have been justified. I am one of those who believe that it is at least a genuine attempt to try to reduce the number. I do not belong to any temperance lobby [Laughter.] I hope that hon. Members will not get too excited by that. I belong to a very moderate lobby. However, when one analyses the figures produced by organisations with no special vested interest in the matter, such as the Road Research Laboratory and bodies of that kind, which have considered this matter objectively, it cannot be denied that drink plays an enormous part in accidents. There can be no doubt about that.
The Minister quoted a Fabian pamphlet. I was glad that he did so. It only goes to show how non-partisan this debate has been. However, I believe that he was in the Labour Party at one time, and perhaps that accounts for it. This pamphlet says that nineteen people are being killed every day, that 230 are being injured every day and that 700 are being slightly injured every day. It goes on to give percentages relating to the number of cases in which people were killed and in which it was known that alcohol was consumed. I commend anyone who has doubts about this matter to read this pamphlet.
The pamphlet shows that out of 161 people killed on the road, 90 had been drinking, 55 had been driven by drivers who had been drinking and 14 had been driving. Reference has been made time and time again to the large number of accidents which occur after ten o'clock on Saturday night. The Minister is right in saying that, in considering a Bill which is called a Road Traffic Bill but which, to a large extent concerns road safety, the question of drink cannot be ignored. It is against that background that I support the increased penalties proposed by the Bill. I also support the Bill because of the principle in Clause 2 with regard to tests for alcohol in the blood.
I should like to make one or two general comments before dealing with the details of the Bill. The Minister talked about this three E's—engineering, education and enforcement. I pay credit to the traffic engineers in the right hon. Gentleman's Department. They have done a magnificent job in the last few
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years. They have proved that with a little ingenuity, by introducing one-way traffic, by preventing right-hand turns, by the removal of some of the stupid bollards one sees on the roads and by the diversion of traffic, it is possible even on the worst roads to improve conditions. By turning traffic on to minor roads and then at a suitable point bringing it back on to the main roads, his engineers have achieved an enormous speed up in traffic. This work has considerably improved our existing road system, but we must have a road-building programme far in excess of anything that the Minister is contemplating at the moment.
Many factors which contribute to accidents today are not referred to in the Bill. For example, no mention is made of the parking of vehicles at night. The situation is becoming impossible in many towns. Cars are allowed to park at night without showing any lights. If a motorist turns off the main road into a minor one, he finds it particularly hazardous to continue his journey because cars are parked without lights on both sides of the road.
This problem must be dealt with somehow. The problem in my constituency is that at night about 400 lorries are parked on the roads, and sometimes on the pavements. Apparently the police can do nothing about this because, they say, there is no alternative to parking in the streets. It seems to me, therefore, that this Minister and this House must deal with this problem of the parking of cars at night.
How right the Minister was to talk about education. Those who are motorists must sometimes wonder whether they are sufficiently educated to cope with the problems with which they are faced every day. I am scared of going out in my car, because I am a Member of Parliament and I know that if I commit an offence and am caught the story will probably make headlines. The Minister talked about being careful when driving because he is the Minister. This is perfectly true. I am not suggesting that Members drive better than anybody else, but I think that being a Member makes one even more careful. Some people do not seem to care or worry about how they drive. It is a truism to say that if people drove

1457
with a little care and thought for others the situation would be eased considerably.
I deal now with pedestrians. I am sorry that the hon. Member for Crosby (Mr. Graham Page) did not get an opportunity to take part in the debate. I wish that he had, because he is Chairman of the Pedestrians' Association and has an important part to play in road safety. There is nothing in the Bill dealing with pedestrians, though some appalling accidents are caused by their stupidity. There is no other word for it. I am delighted to hear that the Minister intends to set up an experimental system of lights whereby pedestrians will cross the road only when the lights are in their favour. I am not sure whether the Minister intends to introduce penalties for pedestrians who cross against the lights. If motorists are penalised for crossing against the lights, I think that a similar law must be applied to pedestrians. I think that pedestrians ought to be penalised if their flagrant disregard of traffic conditions leads to accidents.
Mr. Graham Page: I am sure that all pedestrians will welcome an all-red period. I am sure that they will be only too pleased to be disciplined so that they might escape danger from motorists. I am sure that they will be delighted if they are given the facility of crossing during an all-red period.
Mr. Mellish: I do not see how we canask pedestrians to assist unless we give them a chance to cross the road in safety. But if they do not take that chance and cross the road when the lights are green for cars and red for them, they ought to be prosecuted. I do not see any reason why pedestrians should get away with doing just what they like. The action of one pedestrian can cause death to the driver of a car, and in certain circumstances cause terrible damage to the car, and he then tries to vanish in the crowd because he is ashamed of what has happened. I want it to go out from this House that this is not an anti-motorist Bill, but since it is the driver of the vehicle who possesses this lethal weapon it is inevitable that the Government must first concern themselves with him.
Mr. Holt: Does the hon. Member really mean what he has just said about pedestrians? If he has the opportunity of enforcing such action, I can assure him he will have a lot of trouble. Pedestrians must be physically segregated by fences of the type we now have at the bottom of Parliament Street. That is a very desirable arrangement. That is the way to cope with the problem. We should get into awful trouble if, on every occasion when a pedestrian stepped off the pavement because it had no fence, he was liable to be fined.
Mr. Mellish: I am sorry if I conveyed the wrong impression. I want pedestrians to be assisted to cross the roads, but I support the principle behind the Minister's experiment. I hope that it will succeed, and that it will be developed throughout the country. But if it is developed, penalties must be imposed for the pedestrians who abuse the rules. It is as simple as that.
It has already been said that certain vested interests have taken part in the debate, and I must declare that I have been asked to put the point of view of the union with which I am associated. It is right that its view should be expressed. It represents 1 million people—without doubt the vast majority of those who drive motor vehicles. It strongly objects to and is horrified at the prospects arising from Clause 3, which disqualifies for six months automatically after the third offence.
My case has already been put very well by other hon. Members, and I do not want to bore the House by stating it again, except to point out that those who drive these vehicles—especially passenger service vehicles—are already subjected to a very special test before they can obtain a licence to drive those vehicles. They are, therefore, specially qualified, and it would be monstrous if the courts were not given a discretion not to apply this penalty after the third offence. I am not trying to defend the more serious offence of dangerous or reckless driving. I agree that in such cases licences should be taken away after the third offence.
The union for which I am speaking, which has a great interest in the Bill, has asked me to say that it welcomes most of its provisions. The Minister

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thus has another friend in court—a very rare friend—the Transport and General Workers' Union. It supports the Bill, and does not oppose a general tightening up the law concerning dangerous driving and the imposition of severer penalties for serious offences.
I now turn to Clause 2, which deals with the question of the amount of alcohol in the blood. I do not know what other hon. Members feel, but I am convinced that drink is a major contributory factor in many accidents. If that is so, it is a good reason for supporting the proposal to introduce urine tests, breathalyser tests and the taking of blood samples, for use as evidence in court. In my humble way I have tried to ascertain the views of more qualified people, including medical people. I commend all hon. Members to read the speech made by Lord Taylor in another place. It is a fascinating speech. I had the chance of having a long chat with him, besides speaking to other doctors.
I am advised that the breathalyser is a first-class machine, which should be used in this country. But the equipment must be standard throughout the country. Lord Taylor was right to emphasise that the machines will be operated by experts and not ordinary policemen. They will also be maintained by experts. I should like some general assurances from the Parliamentary Secretary tonight—or he can give them in Committee—about the reactions of the Government to the introduction of a machine of this character, which is brand-new to this country. The Minister talked about education. We must educate the public in this matter and sell them the idea that this test will be scrupulously fair. I am told that the breathalyser can give two samples—one for the defence and one for the prosecution.
The effect of what Lord Taylor said is that the introduction of these tests would mean that any man who drank more than two pints of beer or two whiskies would be subject to the charge of having alcohol in his blood to such an extent as to impair his driving. I believe that the time is fast coming when we had better settle for that. I speak as one who very much likes to go into a pub on the right occasion and drink beer. I put it on record that I do not
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drink whisky because I do not like it. In that respect, I am sorry for my Scottish hon. Friends.
I think it is absolutely essential for us to face this. I believe that in the light of the figures which I gave earlier, we have no alternative but to adopt this measure in view of what Lord Taylor said. Lord Taylor put it in very fair, simple and non-technical terms which I can understand. He said that the alcoholic content produced by the amounts of alcohol which I have just mentioned would be 50 milligrammes in every 100 millilitres of blood, and that that content alone was enough to impair the ability of a person to drive. Consequently, I put on record my view that if these tests axe worth while they should be made compulsory.
That is my personal view. I say that speaking entirely for myself. In this, I am in conflict with my own organisation, the Transport and General Workers' Union. The union is worried, and I am sure that the hon. Member for the Isle of Thanet (Mr. Rees-Davies), as a lawyer, will be intrigued by the argument. It says that it objects to the possibility of what was called an unofficial permissible alcohol level being applied throughout the courts and people being prosecuted on that basis, and that basis alone. However, as a layman I hold the view that if these tests are to work and if they are to do the sort of job which I and, I think, the Government want them to do, we cannot avoid that level sometimes being introduced. It will be accepted that there will be a certain standard and that if a person goes over it he will be liable to prosecution. As to the amount of the fine and so on, that is, naturally, a matter for the decision of the courts, but in respect of ascertaining the stress of alcohol, if that is the way to put it, I think that we shall have to have this at the end of the day.
I end on a rather sombre note. I feel very strongly about road safety at the moment. In the humble road of small terrace houses in Lewisham where I live we have just had an experience of what this can mean. The Minister of State, Home Office, will be interested in this. In that small road there was a young policeman living very happily with his wife and two children. He has just lost

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his life in the execution of his duty—in a car accident. It happened only a short time ago. I have never known a road so unhappy and distressed. That sort of thing suddenly brings home to one the heartache that road accidents can cause. The young policeman went off at half-past twelve one night to go on duty, and by half-past one he was dead. It brought home to me more than ever before what is going on all over the country. Every hour of the day someone is being hurt.
Against that background we have to answer the vested interests of drink, of trade unions and of people like myself who may have special points of view to put. If we can show that by action that we have taken in this House we have tried to prevent that sort of thing being perpetuated, I think the House of Commons will have achieved what it was established to do.
9.29 p.m.
The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport (Mr. John Hay): The House has given a general welcome to the Bill, and I can assure hon. Members that those of us who have been concerned with it find that welcome very gratifying indeed. My right hon. Friend in particular is, I am sure, most grateful for the tributes that have been paid not only to the Bill but to him personally, so much so that I think he was rather doubtful whether his ears were working properly when he heard hon. Members complimenting him for a change.
If I may say this without embarrassing my right hon. Friend, those of us who have the privilege of working with him know how seriously he has taken this aspect of the duties which fall to him and how very much he feels that the Government should play an active rôle in trying to do something about the constantly rising toll of road accidents.
We all know—it has been made perfectly clear by every speech to which we have listened today—that there is little that can be done by physical means Ultimately, it all comes down to the person who is behind the driving wheel of the car, sitting on the seat of the motor cycle or cycle, or even on his own feet walking across the road. It is that lack of care, that impatience, that feeling that perhaps he is a better driver than anyone else—all these things contribute to road
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accidents. There is no person in the country who, if he were Minister of Transport, could automatically ensure that in every single case persons on the roads would always drive in accordance with the precepts of the Highway Code. It is just not possible.
The plain fact, as we all know, is that if every person who used the roads obeyed every rule in the Highway Code we should have no accidents. We should not have this appalling total of deaths and injuries every year. It is a problem which, as my right hon. Friend said, is extremely difficult to solve, and there is no one single thing that can be done. One has to approach the problem of road safety and road accidents from a number of different directions, and one must try to make what advance one can in each of those directions, and this Bill is an attempt to make a further advance.
This afternoon my right hon. Friend spent a good deal of time discussing some of the things we are doing apart from the Bill now before us. He referred to the engineering work which is being done, the educational work, and the question of enforcement. There is a part to be played by this Bill in the latter. Several hon. Members referred to engineering, and they pointed out the urgent need for more work to be done to improve our roads. Hon. Members have called for larger road programmes. The hon. Member for Bermondsey (Mr. Mellish) claimed that because the Ministry was limited in the amount of money afforded it by the Treasury, the job of the Minister was extremely difficult. The hon. Member for Bolton, West (Mr. Holt) called for a larger road programme. I recall that yesterday the right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond) called for Government expenditure to be reduced, but that is the sort of situation which we often find in that political party.
Mr. Holt: The hon. Gentleman must not make that silly kind of point. When there is a Budget running into £7,000 million, no one can stand at the Government Dispatch Box and say that it is not possible to alter the Government priorities in expenditure so that more than £100 million may be spent on the roads.
Mr. Hay: I quite understand if the hon. Gentleman is feeling rather touchy on this point. But I wish to give him

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the figures of what we are to spend on the roads. This is not a debate on the road programme but on this Bill. But let me say what we shall be spending on the roads, because road improvement, as we have all admitted, can pay enormous dividends from the point of view of road safety.
In the coming financial year—the Vote on Account was published yesterday and the Estimates are available—we shall be spending £133·5 million on roads in England and Wales and a further £18·2 million in Scotland, which is a total of £151·7 million to be spent in the coming year. That is the largest amount we have ever spent in this country. Over the next five years—the long-term programmes have been announced—the Government will spend £605 million, the local authorities £80 million and a further £300 million will be coming forward for what we call maintenance and minor improvements to our roads. That makes a total of £985 million to be spent on the roads of this country in the next five years. It is not far short of £200 million a year, and so I do not think that it can be claimed that we are neglecting the element of road improvement when dealing with road safety.
There are other things which I should like to mention before coming to the details of the Bill. I was struck particularly by the speech of my right hon. Friend the Member for Guildford (Sir R. Nugent), who was my predecessor in this office, and who speaks with a long and detailed experience and knowledge of the subject. One thing in particular interested me. It was that my right hon. Friend had come to the conclusion that we need a little more information and knowledge about a number of aspects of road safety. The fact is that we do not yet know enough about why road users, whether drivers, riders or pedestrians, behave in the way they do. We want to know more about the reasons for the behaviour of road users, and the human factors which lead to accident situations. I think that this knowledge would enable us to improve driving instruction, driver testing and the education of road users generally.
As was said by my right hon. Friend, the current methods of education in the
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case of children, who are susceptible to straightforward instruction, are very good. But we do not know whether the methods by which we try to influence adult behaviour are as effective as they could be. The fundamental difficulty about adult road user education is that the habits of adults are already formed and their attitudes are set. We propose to tackle this problem by appointing a special research team, composed of technical experts and including some people who have experience in psychology and related matters.
The task of the team will be twofold. First, to study the human factors involved in road user behaviour and accident situations and, secondly, to explore the means of influencing this behaviour most effectively. In short, its job will be to discover—if I may use a slang expression—what makes the road user "tick", and to see whether there is anything we can learn which will enable us to ensure that he "ticks" safely. The details of this proposal are being explored by the Ministry of Transport and the Road Research Laboratory. It is a little too early for me to comment in detail on the composition of the team or its terms of reference, or when it will begin to work. But we are anxious that it shall get going at the earliest opportunity. This will be a useful new body, but it is not the only new body about which I wish to tell the House.
Mrs. E. M. Braddock: When an inquiry is made into accidents, will any account be taken of the date at which the drivers obtained a licence in the first case? I know that when cases are heard in courts there is no knowledge of the length of time in which a person involved in an accident has been driving, and I am certain that it would be of the greatest assistance if records were kept showing how long these people had been driving.
Mr. Hay: That sounds to me like a very valuable point, and I am obliged to the hon. Lady. I imagine that to be exactly the sort of thing which the special research team would look into. Its job will be to find out what causes accidents and to examine the matter from a personal point of view. We want the team to try to understand the personal situation of people involved in accidents in order to ascertain whether there are some

1465
factors which repeat themselves over and over again and therefore give us a guide as to how to provide remedial action.
This is not the only body which we propose to set up. At present responsibility for road safety is in a state of fragmentation throughout the country. Local authorities, police forces and the Ministry of Transport are all involved. What we need is an instrument to coordinate in the different areas whatever action may be necessary, and that action may possibly—and probably will—involve several agencies. We therefore propose to set up two or three experimental road safety teams in selected areas.
These teams would be able to take an overall view of road accidents and propose combinations of road safety measures in their areas. The road safety measures they might propose would include, if necessary, less orthodox and unconventional ones which might, nevertheless, pay a good dividend. We have in mind that each team would consist of a leader and small supporting staff of two or three people. They will familiarise themselves with the accident pattern of their areas and put forward specific proposals to the authorities concerned. Then they will collate the results, and throughout they will work in the closest touch with my Ministry. This is an additional piece of machinery which I hope will give us some help in this field.
Mr. Mellish: I am delighted to hear that. Will these teams also take into account the possibility of having courtesy policemen, not exactly under the Home Office but under the Ministry of Transport, who will not have to conform to all the regulations of the police forces, but who will be a corps of motor cyclists looking after the public?
Mr. Hay: I am not saying that that might not be a possible recommendation of some of these teams. I do not know. The second type of team, of which we envisage there will be two or three in selected areas, will not be executive bodies in the sense that they will run their own force of policemen or anything of that kind. Their job will be to take an overall view of the situation which is leading to accidents and
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to make recommendations to the local authorities, the police, the Ministry, or anyone. I am distinguishing them from the team of experts trained in psychology to which I referred earlier because the job of that team will be nation-wide and dealing more with the human side of accidents. No doubt we shall be able to give further information as these ideas proceed.
I now turn to the Bill. I think it true to say that there is no single theme running through the Bill except that of the prevention of accidents and the promotion of road safety. As hon. Members have quite properly and rightly said, it is not a Bill on which there are party political differences. There may well be controversy, argument and heated discussion as we proceed. Nevertheless, our overall objective in this House is perfectly clear. It is to try to save lives and to prevent accidents. About that there is no party difference at all. It is a Committee Bill, and therefore I had better deal with the various points made in this debate largely by reference to the individual Clauses.
I say something. first, about Clause 1. The House will remember that this is a Clause which alters to a significant degree the definition of unfitness to drive through the influence of drink. My hon. Friend the Member for Isle of Thanet (Mr. Rees-Davies)—who apologised to me for having to leave the Chamber and not to be here to listen to my speech—and my hon. Friend the Member for Buckinghamshire, South (Mr. Ronald Bell) were both critical of this Clause and the change we propose. What we say is that we need to change the definition to make it clear that a court can convict someone of driving under the influence of alcohol and therefore, as my right hon. Friend said earlier, driving in an extremely dangerous way in any event if his ability to drive is impaired because he has taken alcohol.
We have studied the available data and information on the relationship between alcohol and road accidents. There is a good deal of evidence from all sort of countries, much of which is difficult to reconcile. The one theme which emerges from studying all of it is that the taking of alcohol, in a moderate quantity, or even a very small quantity.

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has an immediate effect on the mental and physical capabilities and capacities of any normal individual. It is not relevant to this argument to say that a man may be able to drink half a bottle of whisky and appear perfectly sober while another can take half a glass and be "blind" drunk. That is not the point. The point is that the ingestion of even a moderate degree of alcohol immediately has an effect.
I should like to quote from what was said by the British Medical Association in a booklet it published in 1960 entitled, "The Relation of Alcohol to Road Accidents". Its conclusions are summarised on pages 33 and 34. I want to quote two of them:
"Relatively low concentrations of alcohol in the tissues cause a deterioration in driving performance and increase appreciably the likelihood of accident.
The existing legislation does not come into effective operation until a very much higher concentration of alcohol in the tissues has been reached, and is unsuccessful as a measure to prevent accidents caused by alcohol."
In the light of this very authoritative and careful view, we were obliged to do something about this situation. I can understand that it may be represented by some people, who perhaps have not understood our motives, as an indication that we do not trust the judges or the courts. My hon. Friend the Member for the Isle of Thanet said as much. This just is not true. We say that, if the figures of convictions which have been obtained over the years for this offence are set against the rising volume of traffic on our roads, there appears to be a long-term trend of convictions going down. This appears to us not to tally with the road safety object which is in our minds.
For example, in 1960 6,328 people were dealt with in the courts of England and Wales for the offences of driving while drunk or being drunk in charge of a motor vehicle. Seven hundred and thirty-five were tried at assizes and quarter sessions and 63 per cent. of them were convicted by juries. Five thousand, five hundred and ninety-three were tried in magistrates' courts and 96 per cent. of these were convicted. It might be said that these figures prove the case that people stand a much better chance of getting off, to use a colloquialism, before a jury than they do before magistrates.
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But to put the picture clearly one must remember that many people charged with this offence may well plead guilty before the magistrates because they know they have been caught and must make a clean breast of it straight away. Nevertheless, these figures to some extent tend to support the view which is widely held that juries are reluctant to convict for these offences.
Mr. Ronald Bell: I hate to interrupt my hon. Friend in a closing speech, because I know how difficult it is, but do not the figures tend to show that, if a man is charged with this rather serious offence and believes he is innocent, he chooses to go for trial and is always advised to go for trial? Therefore, the cases heard by juries are those in which there seems to be a good defence.
Mr. Hay: That may be true. In any event, whether it be true or false, there is nothing in the Bill which disturbs that situation. It will still be open to anyone to choose either to be tried before magistrates or to go for trial by jury at assizes or quarter sessions. All that we have done in Clause 1 is to change the definition of "unfit to drive" by referring specifically to the impairment of the faculties which, as I have tried to demonstrate, we know from the medical research results from the ingestion of even a small amount of alcohol.
I pass to Clause 2. There was a certain amount of complaint by hon. Members that we are here producing for the first time in a Statute a bad principle of self-incrimination. It is alleged that we are saying that a man must have a test and that, if he does not have a test, the fact that he refuses is to be held against him. It is true that there is no precedent in statute law for the proposition that a refusal without reasonable cause to do something should be treated as evidence in support of the case against an accused person.
The reason may be the better understood if I explain the situation a little further. In other Statutes—and the Food and Drugs Acts are very good examples—samples may be taken for analysis with a view to the results being given in evidence against the accused. When that happens, the law requires that the sample shall be provided and, if it is not provided, that itself is a seperate offence

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and a penalty is attached to it. In such cases, there is no logical need for a provision that specifies adverse consequences if the sample is refused. We have decided that in relation to a charge of drunken driving we should not require the giving by an accused person of a sample from his own body, so there is the logical need to specify the adverse consequences of an unreasonable refusal; that is to say, not in terms of a penalty but in terms of the adverse inference that can be drawn from the refusal.
We must, however, bear two points in mind. First, while under the existing law evidence of the results of a test is admissible to show the condition of an accused person charged with drunken driving, evidence of refusal to submit to such a test is not admissible. Subsection (1) of Clause 2 gives statutory recognition of the existing admissibility of evidence of the result of a test, but it makes a new provision as to the admissibility of the refusal to submit to a test.
Secondly, evidence as to refusal is not, by itself, sufficient proof of the accused being drunk, and I want to emphasise to my right hon. Friend the Member for Guildford and others who have asked about this that the refusal and the test may be treated only as supporting other evidence given by the prosecution that the accused was drunk.
In practice, what will happen is that, as happens now, the prosecution will call evidence as to the clinical condition of the person charged; that he was staggering, that his eyes were glassy, that his breath smelt, that he could not touch the tip of his nose—all the things about which we have heard and of which I hope none of us has experience. But, in addition, and to support its evidence, the prosecution will be able to put in evidence the results of any chemical tests it has had conducted—
Mr. C. Pannell: Or the defence.
Mr. Hay: Yes, or the defence, but I will come to that in a moment.
If the accused has refused to have a test, I presume that a police officer will testify that the man was asked to submit to a test and refused. That is how it will work in practice.
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I do not believe that that is necessarily very wrong. I agree that it is a new principle in our law, but I think we have to tighten the law here a little. The way we have designed the Clause is fair to the accused. There are a number of safeguards for him which I shall not go into in detail, but the Clause is intended to give him a fair deal. Nevertheless, we feel that there should be some provision whereby the results of the test can be got before the courts and given statutory recognition. At present, although tests take place and evidence of them is given in the courts, there is no statutory basis for making them and producing the evidence. If we pass the Clause, there will be.
That brings me to the point about whether alcohol tests should be made compulsory, as the hon. Member for Bermondsey and other hon. Members have asked that they should be. In fact, when the Bill was in another place, several Amendments relating to chemical tests were considered, but all were finally rejected for two very good reasons. The first is the purely practical reason. It is quite impossible to insist upon an accused person providing a sample of urine which he may be physically unable to provide. There may also be religious objections to a blood test.
As for breath tests, about which the hon. Member for Bermondsey asked me specifically—the breathalyser and so on—the fact is that no sufficiently accurate instrument has yet been developed, although I believe that it may well be developed fairly soon. In any case, it may not be possible to apply breath tests at all police stations, particularly those in the rural areas. Those are the practical reasons for our thinking that we could not make the tests compulsory. Either one must have the apparatus ready in the case of the breathalyser or, as I have said, people may refuse or be unable to provide the samples which a statutory test would demand.
Mr. Mellish: This has not been said before in another place. I had no idea of this. I understood that the breathalyser was available and generally perfect.
Mr. Hay: That is not the case. My advice is that the breathalyser is accurate to a high degree but that there

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are "bugs" in it which must be ironed out.
Mr. Glenvil Hall: Quite a large number of countries already use this machine. Are we to understand that they are using something which is either not efficient or is not truthful in its results?
Mr. Hay: I have no idea. It would be wrong of me to make a comment about that. Those who advise my right hon. Friend and myself, including medical and scientific advisers, agree that at the moment the breathalyser is not in such a sufficiently developed state to enable it to be used with 100 per cent. accuracy in every case.
Of course, if we were to make tests compulsory the immediate consequence would be that the results of the tests would be conclusive as to whether or not the person had alcohol in his body to such a degree as to make him incapable of having control of the vehicle or to impair that control. Therefore, the tests would have to be 100 per cent. perfect and, as I have said, they could not be in this case.
The second reason why we cannot agree to make the tests compulsory is that it is quite inappropriate to create a new offence of refusing to agree to the test. The penalties for this would have to be at least as high as the penalties for the principal offence and I think that the words now in Clause 2 are already sufficient to ensure that the courts can draw the right inference from any unreasonable refusal.
I turn to Clause 3, about which we have been criticised for bringing in automatic disqualifications when three serious offences under Parts I or II of the Schedule have been committed within three years. I know that there are a number of objections and that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Vauxhall (Mr. Strauss), in his opening speech today, deployed these. No doubt we can go into them in greater detail in Committee.
In the moments remaining to me I will take up one point which was raised by the hon. Gentleman the Member for Bermondsey concerning the position of
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professional drivers. We should clear our minds of cant about this. It seems that there is a fundamental confusion of thought, for the object of our concern is road safety and that is a paramount consideration. If what we are considering was the career of an airline pilot who, as a result of misbehaviour, negligence or dangerous conduct was convicted of an offence, we would not for a moment say that he should not be disqualified from piloting an aircraft because it would mean that he would lose his livelihood. I cannot see any logical difference between that situation of an airline pilot and the situation of a professional driver of a lorry or public service vehicle on our roads.
The fact is that we are, in both cases, dealing with dangerous or negligent conduct and if the consequences of either of those means disqualification we should not allow the fact that he may lose his living as a result to be prayed in aid. We can go into this in detail in Committee, but I honestly believe that it would be unwise for us to make an alteration of that kind.
I realise that a number of other points have been raised and that time prevents me from dealing with them. We shall have an opportunity of reviewing all of these in Committee. I thank the House, on behalf of my right hon. Friend, for the support that has been given in the speeches made today and I commend the Bill to the House for Second Reading in the hope that we may get it in and out of Committee—and I emphasise "out"—in time for it to be put on the Statute Book before the Summer Recess.
Question put and agreed to.
Bill accordingly read a Second time.
Bill committed to a Standing Committee pursuant to Standing Order No. 38 (Committal of Bills).

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Proceedings on the Acts of Parliament Numbering and Citation Bill [Lords] exempted, at this day's Sitting, from the provisions of Standing Order No. 1 (Sittings of the House).—[Mr. Redmayne.]

ROAD TRAFFIC [MONEY]
[Queen's Recommendation signified.]
Considered in Committee under Standing Order No. 84 (Money Committees).
[Sir WILLIAM ANSTRUTHER-GRAY in the Chair]
Motion made, and Question proposed,
That, for the purposes of any Act of this Session to make further provision as to road safety and road traffic, it is expedient to authorise—

(a) the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of any expenses incurred by the Minister of Transport or the Secretary of State in placing, maintaining, lighting or removing obstructions on roads;

(b) the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of any expenses incurred by the Minister of Transport in connection with arrangements for compiling and maintaining a register of approved driving instructors;

(c) any increase attributable to the said Act in the sums payable out of moneys provided by Parliament or payable into the Exchequer under any enactment relating to traffic signs, including any enactment authorising the making of grants or loans in connection with traffic signs;

(d) any increase attributable to the said Act in the sums payable out of moneys provided by Parliament by way of Rate-deficiency Grant or Exchequer Equalisation Grant under the enactments relating to local government in England and Wales or in Scotland; and

(e) the payment into the Exchequer of any sums received by the Minister of Transport under the said Act.—[Mr. Hay.]

10.1 p.m.
Mr. H. P. G. Channon: I feel that this might be a convenient point at which to ask my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport to deal with driving instructors which must be a cost on the Exchequer and, therefore, I presume arises on this Money Resolution.
The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport (Mr. John Hay): If I may say so, it is very astute of my hon. Friend to raise this point on the Money Resolution. The Resolution is drawn in very wide terms indeed to deal with the individual Clauses. I do not propose to deal with them in detail, but I must tell my hon. Friend, in answer to his question, that I do not think it would be appropriate or, indeed, in order for me to say that the point that he has in
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mind would be covered in this way by this Resolution. I am sorry.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolution to be reported.
Report to be received Tomorrow.

ACTS OF PARLIAMENT NUMBERING AND CITATION BILL [Lords]
Order for Second Reading read.
10.3 p.m.
The Solicitor-General (Sir John Hobson): I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.
This Bill has three features which make it somewhat of a rarity amongst Bills. It is very short, it is wholly intelligible and it is largely uncontroversial. The one substantive provision in the Bill is confined to providing that from 1st January, 1963, Acts of Parliament shall be numbered according to the order in which they are enacted in the calendar year, so that the first Act of 1963 will be known as "1963 c. 1" instead of bearing the title such as it would at present "11 & 12 Eliz. 2, c. 11".
The present system of numbering Acts of Parliament is almost as ancient as Parliament itself. It is based upon the Sessions of Parliament described in terms of regnal years. There are three periods which are concerned in describing Acts of Parliament—the Sessions of Parliament, the calendar year and the regnal year. The present system consists of allotting them to each Session (of Parliament, described according to the regnal year in which the Session takes place, and that may consist of one, two or three regnal years.
I hope that the House will agree, without my taking any more of its time at this late hour on the fascinating history and reasons for this change, that there is everything to be said for adopting a system which is already common to the great part of the Commonwealth, to much of the English-speaking parts of the world and to all our Colonies and Protectorates, and which accords with both convenience and common sense.
Each Act of Parliament in future, therefore, if the Bill is passed, will bear simply its Short Title and a number consisting of the year in which it was

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passed, with the chapter number added according to the order in which, in the calendar year, the Act was passed. The result might be said, speaking in biblical terms, to convert the future volumes of statutes from the Books of Kings to the Books of Numbers.
10.5 p.m.
Mr. E. G. Willis: First, I congratulate the hon. and learned Gentleman the Solicitor-General on his first appearance at the Dispatch Box. I hope that any future legislation he may introduce will be as uncontroversial as this.
I rise to express the gratitude of at least some people in Scotland for the Bill. The present method of numbering and citing Acts of Parliament by using the regnal year is, of course, a source of annoyance to those who consider that Scotland has no Queen Elizabeth II, but only a Queen Elizabeth I. By ceasing to refer to Queen Elizabeth II in the number of Acts, we shall remove this cause of irritation and annoyance to certain people in Scotland. I am sure that they will welcome the Bill on that account.
Mr. F. Blackburn: If they know anything about it.
Mr. Willis: Perhaps my hon. Friend does not understand how closely Scottish people follow legislation. They are renowned for their addiction to the law. He should not think that the method of numbering and citing Acts has escaped their notice.
I have a little doubt about the wisdom of breaching an ancient tradition. This is something we should always think carefully about, particularly when it is Conservatives who are breaching an honourable tradition. Conservatives exist to preserve tradition, not breach it. However, as one not so firmly addicted to the past as hon. Members opposite, I welcome the Bill. The new method will be more intelligible, and anything which makes legislation more intelligible is thoroughly desirable.
I hope that the Bill will have a speedy passage to the Statute Book. I do not know whether it will be included among those to receive the new citation. [HON. MEMBERS: "NO."] That is unfortunate.
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However, I hope that it will get on to the Statute Book as quickly as possible. We shall do our best to speed it through the House.
10.9 p.m.
Mr. Forbes Hendry: I join in welcoming the Bill and congratulating my hon. and learned Friend the Solicitor-General on his first appearance at the Dispatch Box.
Like the hon. Member for Edinburgh, East (Mr. Willis), I believe that the Bill will give a great deal of pleasure to many lawyers in Scotland. At last, after just over 200 years, England is taking a page out of the Scottish Statute Book. Before the Treaty of Union, Scottish Acts of Parliament were cited by reference to the Christian year, not the regnal year, and numbered throughout the year in which they were passed.
I congratulate the English on deciding to change their method of citation, and I commend the Bill to the House.
10.10 p.m.
Mr. William Ross: I, too, should like to join in the general congratulations to the Government on introducing the Bill. I think that there are one or two Amendments that we can think of for the Committeee stage, but we can come to them later. As the hon. Member for Aberdeenshire, West (Mr. Hendry) has just said, it takes England a long to catch up, but eventually she does.
I am sure that most people who have taken an interest in this matter will appreciate that something had eventually to be done about the relictuary laws of Scotland from 1424 to 1707. The Statute Law Revision Bill was introduced in this House in 1906, and you, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, will probably remember it well, because all Scottish Members of Parliament are constantly referring to it. It received the Royal Assent, and anyone who likes to look it up will discover that all those Acts of Parliament from 1424 to 1707, even when passed through all their stages in the English, or as it was by then the United Kingdom, Parliament, are in chronological order, according to the year and the chapter. I am not at all surprised that we should at last be getting up to date, but I am wondering how far we are going in this matter, and

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why it is taken so silently by people who worship tradition, almost to the point of folly at times.
I can remember that when we were going into the Naval Discipline Act, there were words written first, I think, by Pepys, and what a struggle there was to have those words maintained. Not a single syllable changed. Here, we are by this very simple piece of legislation saying:
"The chapter numbers assigned to Acts of Parliament passed in the year nineteen hundred and sixty-three and every subsequent year shall be assigned by reference to the calendar year, and not the Session, in which they are passed;"
All this is clear and straightforward, but let us have look at what goes before it:
"Be it enacted by the Queen's most Excellent Majesty, by and with the advice and consent of the Lords Spiritual and Temporal, and Commons, in this present Parliament assembled, and by the authority of the same. as follows:—"
We stick once again to traditional language, and yet we are prepared to throw overboard, almost with a laugh, the way in which Acts of Parliament have been numbered by the House of Commons for hundreds of years.
As my right hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh, East (Mr. Willis) said, in taking out the regnal year, we are also taking out Elizabeth II. We are taking out the name of the monarch. I should have thought myself that this was not something which ought rightly to have been done. I think that the older Members of Parliament might have been concerned about this. I am not a very old Member of the House—only fourteen or fifteen years—and I would not like to tell my colleagues how long it took me to work out this business and find the Acts of Parliament that I wanted. I am quite sure that there are young Members of Parliament who have not yet fathomed how to do it.
In making this much more simple, we are taking away one of the privileges of older Members of Parliament, because in future we shall not be able to mystify some of our younger colleagues, as we used to do. In that respect, there is a measure of regret in my mind about this.
I agree that this will give some lawyers in Scotland pleasure. It
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is amazing how many lawyers there share this feeling of nationalism, when they are getting rid of something which many of us always thought was rather offensive. We bow to no one in our loyalty to the Crown, but in Scotland we never had an Elizabeth I. I reckon that at least one Secretary of State certainly let us down in that respect. We remember the instances of the pillar boxes, and I can remember some people in my constituency being concerned in removing the figure "II" from dies applied to petrol pumps and being very determined in doing it.
I do not think that it has been the desire to get rid of that which has prompted this Bill. I think that it is something much more sensible, but if I may I should like to make one suggestion, which will help us in remembering Bills which have been speedily rushed through the House.
If, after each Bill dealt with under the Guillotine procedure, we put the letter G it would be helpful to everyone interested. It would highlight this factor, so that, in future, the Government would not readily use the Guillotine procedure, as I understand they are threatening to do again during the coming days. There is no reason why we should not have the designation "1962, chapter 5 (G)." Then we would know that the Bill concerned was obviously defective.
Mr. Willis: Would it not also be helpful to have an indication that the measure was passed by a Tory Government?
Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Sir William Anstruther-Gray): Order. We are straying into Committee points. This is a Second Reading debate.
Mr. Ross: This is a very complex Bill. I do not think that there is harm in suggesting that it could be further improved in Committee by giving effect to my suggestion and that of my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh, East.
Mr. J. Grimond: As the question of the Committee stage has been raised, we might be told where the Committee stage will be taken. Owing to the interest in the Bill in Scotland, it might be advisable to send it to the Scottish Grand Committee, which

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could, no doubt, spend many happy hours discussing it. Summer would no doubt be far advanced before we passed it
Mr. Ross: Far be it for me to try to teach the Leader of the Liberal Party about the rules of procedure, but the only things which go to the Scottish Grand Committee are the Second Readings of Bills which are wholly concerned with Scotland. I understand that there is a certain amount of concern about the Bill in England and Wales as well. It is certainly desirable to give it careful scrutiny, and we could find many ways of amending it, although I doubt whether the Government would appreciate our services and attention.
With these comments, I welcome the Bill and join in the congratulations to the Solicitor-General on his first appearance at the Dispatch Box.
10.17 p.m.
Mr. Norman Cole: Just to remind the House that this is not necessarily a Scottish Bill—although one would think it was after listening to the hon. Members for Kilmarnock (Mr. Ross) and Edinburgh, East (Mr. Willis)—I point out that what is involved here is the regnal year as well as the name of the monarch, but that it would not matter which Elizabeth it was, for, presumably, she would come to the throne in the same year in each country.
I am not sure why the Bill is being introduced—for good filing purposes, or as a sort of bargain to placate our friends north of the Border, which I would not necessarily disagree with. If it is because of good filing, this could be the first of a long stream of such changes, affecting also the use of archaic language. I should be sorry to see that language go. I am sorry to see this Bill.
I, too, congratulate my hon. and learned Friend the Solicitor-General on his first appearance at the Dispatch Box. He cannot have had much to do with this Bill. It must have been dropped into his lap. I regret the Bill, however. The day that this House turns itself into a machine and ceases to have anything archaic about it, the country and ourselves will be the poorer. I do not want to see archaic things which cannot be
1480
understood, but I want to see archaic things which can be understood. It should not be hard for hon. Members to work out that from 1952 to 1962 is ten years, and I thought that by now the argument about whether Her Majesty is the second Elizabeth in Scotland would have died down.
Sir Douglas Glover: Why should our friends north of the Border take credit for the Armada when they had nothing to do with it?
Mr. Cole: I am serious about my remarks.
Finally, this is a most important matter to me. I do not regard myself as an old Member of the House either in age or in the number of years that I have been here, but if we continue, as I trust we shall, to require Her Majesty's or His Majesty's assent to Bills before they become law, it does not appear to me to be incongruous to keep her name and regnal year on them.
10.21 p.m.
Mr. G. R. Mitchison: I add my congratulations to the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Solicitor-General. I like and respect him for everything but his views, which, fortunately, do not appear very much in this Bill.
May I add one serious word? This Bill is removing an ancient practice which is really inconvenient and troublesome, and I am glad that it is being done. But I am sorry that we do not get more opportunities in the House to pass pieces of law reform—that is what this is, on a very small scale—which are uncontroversial and which would do a great deal of good in the country. They get pushed through by Private Members' Bills, which is a very good thing as far as it goes, but no Government—this is not a party point—seems to be able to find time to give effect to the recommendations, for instance, of Law Reform Committees, which call for a great deal of skilled and voluntary work on the part of those learned in the law.
I wish that the Government, having gone into travail, had produced a litter of mice like this or, perhaps, one or two rather larger animals, always of a non-controversial nature. I hope that the Bill will be passed, and passed quickly.
10.22 p.m.
Mr. Anthony Kershaw: I congratulate my right hon. and learned Friend the Solicitor-General on his first appearance at the Dispatch Box. But I ask myself what has he said. What is the Bill for? The hon. and learned Member for Kettering (Mr. Mitchison) said that it would cause a great deal less trouble in the country. What trouble has been caused in the country by the method of numbering Bills which has been adopted up to now? Who asked for the Bill? Why are we wasting our time at this hour of night on this sort of thing? I hope that my right hon. and learned Friend will take the Bill upstairs and will cut its throat.
10.23 p.m.
Sir Douglas Glover: I support what my hon. Friend the Member for Stroud (Mr. Kershaw) has said. May I say this on a rather more serious note?
We take great pride in the fact that our Parliamentary system consist of the monarch, the Lords and the Commons "in this present Parliament assembled." The monarch is definitely part of the legislative process. It is part of the dignity which this House has acquired over the centuries that the legislation which we pass should be linked closely with the name of the monarch at the time that it goes through Parliament.
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Many arguments can be adduced about the convenience of hon. Members. The hon. Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Ross) had to be in the House for fourteen years before he could find a way to get a Measure to which he wanted to refer. I see no reason why we should not have a sort of official title or wording for a Bill, using the regnal year as has been done in the past, and some simple vocabulary in the Library which will enable rather simple hon. Members to find their way about Measures more easily.
I deplore that, in a lighthearted way, we are letting something go which has existed for probably 700 years. We are parting with part of the fabric of the legislative process of this nation and something from which a good deal of the dignity of this House, of which we are all proud to be Members, stems for the sake of the convenience of the modern age.
I have no intention of trying to divide the House, but I do not think that there is a demand for the Bill. It may be convenient, but I think that the House will be the poorer by the passing of it.
Question put and agreed to.
Bill accordingly read a Second time.
Bill committed to a Committee of the whole House.—[Mr. M. Hamilton.]
Committee Tomorrow.

IMPORT DUTIES (LETTUCES AND ENDIVES)
10.28 p.m.
The Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade (Mr. Niall Macpherson): I beg to move,
That the Import Duties (General) (No. 3) Order, 1962 (S.I., 1962, No. 233), dated 6th February, 1962, a copy of which was laid before this House on 9th February, be approved.
The purpose of this Order is to raise the Import Duty on lettuce and endives in the months of March and April from the present level of £1 per cwt. to 30s. per cwt. This has its origin in an application by the National Farmers' Union.
There are three facts which are relevant to this Order. Imports of lettuce in March, mainly from the Netherlands, have more than trebled since 1958. Although British production has remained much the same, and indeed increased slightly last year, its share of the market has fallen from over half to less than one-third. The market for lettuce in March has extended considerably. Indeed, consumption last March was twice as great as in March, 1958.
The second fact is that the major interest of the British glasshouse grower is in April. Imports in April have also increased. They have gone up by 50 per cent. since 1957, while British glasshouse production has remained about the same. Accordingly, the British glasshouse growers' share has fallen from over three-quarters in April, 1958, to under two-thirds in April, 1961.
The third point is that prices for British-grown lettuce in the past two years have been below the level of 1958 in both March and April.
My right hon. Friend has concluded that in these circumstances, and having in mind the Government's general policy of supporting horticulture by way of tariff protection, together with the fact that before the war the duty on lettuce in March and April was 10s. per cwt., it is not unreasonable to increase the duty in March and April to 30s. per cwt.
The tariff on lettuce is not bound under G.A.T.T., but we had to invoke the waiver of the "no new preference"
1484
rule to enable us to increase the mostfavoured-nation duty without imposing a duty on supplies to the Commonwealth. We had no difficulty in doing so since hardly any lettuce comes, or is likely to come, from the Commonwealth in March and April.
If the House agrees to the Motion, as I hope it will, the new rate of duty will come into force tomorrow.
10.31 p.m.
Mr. Arthur Holt: I hope the House will not approve the Order. I am aware that the trade has asked on two previous occasions for an increase in duty. An application was made in 1957 for the doubling of the tariff, and it was rejected by the Board of Trade. Another application was made in 1959, and it was again rejected The reason given on the last occasion was, I think, that the applicants were not able to show that their profits had been reduced—the Minister said nothing about that tonight—nor had foreign imports hurt them. In his figures, the Minister showed that foreign imports in March and April had increased, but in respect of April they had altered only to the extent that two years ago British production supplied four-fifths of the market and now it supplies only two-thirds. So there has been a change, but it is still only a small one.
The House ought to be aware of the background. Apart from those two months, during the main summer months our own requirements in lettuces are supplied largely by home producers. It was largely a major break-through in Dutch growing of winter lettuces under glass some six or seven years ago that caused the present change. The Dutch lettuce, I am advised, is an improvement on a lettuce developed under glass in Blackpool years ago. It has been greatly improved by the Dutch, and it is far more attractive than any of the other types of lettuce available at this time of the year.
I am also advised that the Dutch lettuce is higher in price. The difficulty is not that the Dutch lettuce coming here in March and April is undercutting the British. It is a better lettuce and is able to command a better price in the shops. I do not see how putting on a tariff at this stage in March and April

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will assist the British horticulturist growing that type of lettuce under glass as distinct from the lettuce grown and sold later in the year, which is, of course, produced in the open.
It is useful just to get that on the record. I should like to know what the Minister has to say about it. I am advised that the increase in the duty will put up the price of lettuce by between ½d. and Id. The price of lettuce at this time of the year is between 1s. 6d. and 1s. 9d., and an increase of ½d. or 1d. does not seem sufficient to afford much protection. It merely means that the price to the housewife will be increased.
During the Budget debate, the Chancellor of the Exchequer referred to the desirability of cutting tariffs, and in the recent debate on the I.C.I.-Courtaulds merger and allied subjects hon. Members opposite expressed similar opinions. The right hon. Member for Reigate (Sir J. Vaughan-Morgan said that it was the view of many hon. Members opposite that the high tariff protection for the British economy was one of the reasons for its flabbiness. It is no use expressing such opinions as that and then approving the introduction of such an Order as this, small though its effects may be. It is more important now than for many years that the actions of the Government shall be designed to reduce prices, otherwise the £ will be in great danger.
It is of the greatest importance that everything possible should be done to reduce prices, and it is a monstrous thing for the Government to make any proposal which would result in an increase in prices and, therefore, an increase in the cost of living. I do not believe that even to help that part of the horticulture industry interested in the growing of lettuce will this Order prove of any use. It will merely result in putting up the price to the housewife.
10.38 p.m.
Mr. Bryant Godman Irvine: I have tried to follow the argument of the hon. Member for Bolton, West (Mr. Holt). But I find it difficult to see why lettuce coming from Holland rather than lettuce grown in this country should be something which is good for our economy. That type of economics may be all right for the people in the hon Member's constituency, but I do not
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think that in the country he would get much support for his argument.
It is not often that we have a debate devoted exclusively to horticulture, and when we have not only such a debate but also an opportunity to congratulate the Government, I do not think that the opportunity should be missed. This Order will be welcomed, and I thank the Government for introducing it.
10.39 p.m.
Mr. Frederick Peart: Speaking for the Opposition, I hope that this Order will be approved, although I recognise that it is necessary to scrutinise it carefully. I reject the view expressed by the hon. Member for Bolton, West (Mr. Holt), but one expects that view from a member of the Liberal Party The Minister has made a case for the Order. I have in my hand a copy of the official Press handout of the National Farmers' Union, dated 9th February, which states:
"The Farmers' Unions of the United Kingdom welcome the Government's decision to increase by 50 per cent. the duty on imports of lettuce in March and April. The new duty of 30s. per cwt. should help to regulate supplies of imported lettuce on the market in those two months, and should benefit growers of lettuce under glass in this country who have suffered considerable hardship over the past few seasons as the result of the quantities of imported lettuce which have been pressed on their market."
Mr. Holt: The hon. Gentleman is suggesting that the lettuce growers have suffered hardship. How does he account for the fact that there is now more acreage of glass growing lettuce than there was three years ago?
Mr. Peart: I am suggesting this, and I believe that the evidence submitted by the growers themselves through their responsible union was correct evidence. I have no reason to doubt it. and I believe that they have a case.
Mr. Holt: Will the hon. Gentleman answer my question?
Mr. Peart: If the Liberals are going to be so doctrinaire in their approach to our food producers as to suggest that the evidence which they submit to Government Departments is false, then I cannot understand their attitude. I believe that their case has been made out. I know that the hon. Member for Bolton, West has put a point of view which was

1487
expressed in a joint statement issued on 13th January, and I suspect that that is where he got part of his speech from. It is a Press hand-out issued by the Joint Import Trades Committee on behalf of the Importers' Standing Committees of the National Federation of Fruit and Potato Trades Limited, the London Fruit and Vegetable Trades Federation, the Fruit Importers Association and the Retail Fruit Trades Federation. If I am going to make a choice I make it on the side of the producers.
I believe that a policy of importation of cheap food at any price will not only harm horticulture from a long-term point of view but will, in the end, injure the consumers' interests. As hon. Members know only too well, when we have discussed these tariffs before in relation to tomatoes, I have always adhered to this point of view, and therefore I hope that this country will not adopt such a policy as has been suggested this evening. [Interruption.]s The hon. Member for Bolton, West has made his speech and I have given way to him in the course of mine. If one of his hon. Friends wishes to make another speech, I have no doubt that he will be afforded the opportunity of making a contribution to the debate. I am stating my case. I think it is the policy which will be approved by both sides of the House, especially by those hon. Members who are interested in agricultural production.
The hon. Member for Bolton, West mentioned the break-through in relation to this new Dutch devlopment, the special type of
"variety which will grow under glass in the poor light of northern latitudes in the winter."
If I may quote from the document which he has read and which has helped to brief him, it is quite true that the variety concerned originated in Blackpool, and I hope that our new Horticulture Council will have regard to it, but that is not an argument in favour of the tariff and for the case of the producers. The case of the producers has been made.
The Parliamentary Secretary quoted figures showing the relative decline in our home production in relation to other countries. He gave figures which I think confirm what has been put forward by
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the producers. I do not think that this will cause hardship. I believe that the British housewife and the British consumer would rather see the British industry built up even if it is necessary at certain times of the year to offer a measure of protection against foreign imports.
I know that this is a matter which can involve us in a major discussion about the future of markets and trade in Europe. I only say at this stage this tariff is essential and necessary to give a measure of protection to a product which is not covered by our normal agricultural legislation. We are not dealing with Review Commodities. For those reasons, we support this Order.
10.45 p.m.
Mr. Peter Walker: I think that all of us have been pleased to be present tonight at this great rally of the Parliamentary Liberal Party. There have been few occasions when as many as half the party have been present. To see them tonight rallying to the old cries of Free Trade and Adam Smith has been most refreshing.
Mr. Donald Wade: There have been many occasions when the whole Liberal Party in the House has been present. If the hon. Member had been here a few days ago he would have seen six Liberals speaking in one debate on a Bill.
Mr. Walker: I noted that only this evening at the crucial time of 8.45—which is so important for correspondence to The Times and so on—the hon. Member for Devon, North (Mr. Thorpe) was not present. It is an occasion after 10 o'clock to find one member of the Parliamentary Liberal Party present to plead the case not only of the producers but of those who are exporters from Holland.
I hope that those people, who will certainly welcome this Measure—the lettuce producers in this country, in those horticultural areas other than Bolton, West, where I gather that lettuce producers are not to be found in great profusion—will take careful note. Perhaps the lettuce producers of Devon will take note of the fact that the Parliamentary Liberal Party is so eager to attack this Measure which is so important to lettuce producers.

1489
One thing we must take into considerais that a very small volume of imports can do a tremendous amount of damage to the market price. I believe that the increase in this tariff will assist in that matter. I therefore support this Order.
10.47 p.m.
Mr. Jeremy Thorpe: I wish, first, to apologise to the House for not being here at the beginning of the debate, but, as a result of the statement made by the Colonial Secretary this afternoon, which we on these benches have been pressing him to make for the last year, I was actively engaged in matters relating to parts of our Colonial Territories.
Unlike the hon. Member for Worcester (Mr. Walker), I represent an agricultural constituency, a purely agricultural constituency of 400 square miles. Among the producers there are growers of lettuce, cucumbers, tomatoes and the like, much of which are under glass. If the hon. Member for Ormskirk (Sir D. Glover) would like to come to see the beauties of North Devon, he would have a very warm welcome and be conducted around. Of course, no one would ever suggest that any argument advanced by any hon. Member representing an agricultural constituency when tariffs are being discussed would ever have any relationship to the agricultural vote. The hon. Member for Worcester said that we on these benches were only concerned with foreign exporters. Foreign exporters happen to export for one reason—that in this country there are consumers who are anxious to purchase and to consume. There are some hon. Members in this House who, notwithstanding the fact that they represent agricultural constituencies and are returned by agricultural votes, are also interested in the fate of the consumers of this country.
Perhaps it would be a good thing if more hon. Members were able to take that particular line and were able to realise that very often not only the consumer but the farmer as well find that their costs are artificially increased and inflated by the operation of tariffs. Although the hon. Member for Sunderland—Workington (Mr. Peart), I beg his pardon, and I beg the pardon of Sunderland—is always prepared to take the propaganda of the National Farmers' Union, perhaps he will realise that the
1490
immediate past president of the National Farmers' Union is today a director of a company enjoying a tariff which is resulting in putting up the price of fertilisers so high to farmers that we have to vote between £20 million and £30 million a year—
Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Sir William Anstruther-Gray): Order. The hon. Member is going a little far on this Order, which merely seeks to increase the import duty chargeable on lettuce and endive.
Mr. Peart: The hon. Member has stated that I am always prepared to accept N.F.U. evidence. I hope that he will withdraw that allegation. I am prepared to examine N.F.U. evidence. At times I accept it. At times I do not accept it. On this occasion I accept it. I believe that the producers have a case. For the hon. Member to deliver his remarks in his usual offensive manner does no good to himself.
Mr. Thorpe: I am grateful to the hon. Member for Workington for suggesting that I have at least established an image in my line of argument. Naturally I will withdraw the remark that he accepts everything put out by the N.F.U. For it I will substitute the suggestion that he is not to be regarded as its most ardent critic.
Mr. Peart: That is fair enough.
Mr. Thorpe: Sometimes a little more criticism would help. After all, we are discussing a tariff. To start with, a tariff is an extremely inefficient way of controlling the market. It has no relevance to the market conditions. It simply operates from one fixed date to another. It bears no relation to the production trends on our farms, particularly our horticultural farms. It has no relevance. If there is a glut, if there is a late crop in this country, the effect of a tariff is that we are prevented from—
Mr. Deputy-Speaker: Order. I am sorry to interrupt the hon. Member again, but we are not discussing the question of tariffs in principle. We are discussing this Order, which increases the Import Duty chargeable on lettuce and endive during the period 1st March to 30th April, etc. It would be out of order to discuss the whole principle and question of tariffs.
Mr. Thorpe: I bow to your Ruling, Mr. Deputy-Speaker. We are, therefore, discussing an Order the operation of which is bound to increase the cost of lettuce and endive to British housewives. There is no question about that. We are doing it at the very time when British agriculture should be trying to become more competitive, since we are shortly to enter the Common Market. I hope, when all these tariffs will be swept away in any case.
Mr. J. M. L. Prior: Will the hon. Member explain his attitude? Is it his view that this tariff should be abolished, together with all other tariffs? If that is his view, will he say so openly?
Mr. Thorpe: The answer to both questions is "Yes", and I have already done so, because I believe that a tariff is an extremely inefficient way of regulating the market. It gives no security to the producer and it increases the cost to the consumer. I am in favour of joining the Common Market, but I apprehend that I should be out of order if I went into that question further, although I should very much like to do so.
I am merely suggesting that perhaps there has been in the debate a little too much regard for the agricultural vote. We know that many agricultural constituencies are held on a very marginal basis, mine included. I can at least say that I have brought these matters out and the electorate has judged on the basis of that advocacy. If there were a little more regard for the consumer in this country and for the price to be paid by the consumer—I see the hon. Member for the Isle of Ely (Sir H. Legge-Bourke) rubbing his hands; no doubt there will be an even more savage onslaught on Liberal candidates, and even on the Prime Minister, at the next election—and more regard to the need for a highly competitive and efficient agricultural industry, the cost of living would go down and agriculture would be placed on a far firmer economic foundation than it is today.
10.55 p.m.
Sir Douglas Glover: I warmly support the Order, and I am sure that all my horticulturists—and particularly those who grow lettuce under glass in the winter—will feel that
1492
the increase in the duty is well earned and justified. I am rather sorry that the hon. Member for Bolton, West (Mr. Holt), who depends so much for his majority on the Bolton horticulturists, should have made his rude remarks, but I am glad that I have been called rather late in the debate because I should like to correct a strange idea that seems to exist in this part of the world that Lancashire is entirely industrial. The fact is that we have a greater acreage under glass than has any other English county. There is a "fiddle" in that, because the Lea Valley divides two counties. However, as a single county, Lancashire has a greater acreage under glass than any other in the country. That being so, Lancashire's voice should be heard on this occasion.
The hon. Member used the argument about the Common Market. As I think he knows, I am in favour of entering, but a great many things would happen in that event. One great disadvantage that our horticulturists face is that, for instance, the Dutch, who are their competitors, have a very sensible arrangement with the unions concerned for a lower rate of pay in the winter and a higher one in the summer. That means that in what I would call this off-season they can produce marginal crops more easily than we can, and until we can get some different arrangement with our workers than now exists our horticulturists are entitled to this increased protection of a crop which is very necessary if they are to break even over the year's activities.
Mr. Holt: The hon. Member will agree that when we go into the Common Market there will be no protection from those Dutch imports?
Sir D. Glover: When we go into the Common Market—
Mr. Deputy-Speaker: Order. We would be going out of order if we were to indulge in argument about the Common Market.
10.58 p.m.
Mr. Macpherson: The House may, perhaps, wish me to answer the case—if it can be called a case—made by the Liberal Party. That case is based entirely on one side, and that is the

1493
consumers' side. We must always have regard to the needs of the producer as well as those of the consumer. The fact is that the incidence of the present tariff on lettuce in March is about 8 per cent., and this proposed increase will raise it to 12 per cent. It is a very small tariff—probably smaller than any other in Europe—and I do not think that it will in any way be a burden on the consumer to give what must be called a normal protection to British horticulturists and increase the price per head of lettuce by one-third of a penny wholesale, which is all this would do.

Division No. 111.]

AYES

[11.0 p.m.

Agnew, Sir Peter

Hastings, Stephen

Percival, Ian

Aitken, W. T.

Heald, Rt. Hon. Sir Lionel

Pitt, Miss Edith

Allason, James

Hendry, Forbes

Pott, Percivall

Bennett, F. M. (Torquay)

Hiley, Joseph

Powell, Rt. Hon. J. Enoch

Biffen, John

Hill, J. E. B. (S. Norfolk)

Prior, J. M. L.

Bingham, R. M.

Hocking, Philip N.

Redmayne Rt. Hon. Martin

Blyton, William

Hughes-Young, Michael

Roots, William

Box, Donald

Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye)

Ropner, Col. Sir Leonard

Brown, Alan (Tottenham)

Jackson, John

Scott-Hopkins, James

Buck, Antony

Johnson Smith, Geoffrey

Seymour, Leslie

Bullard, Denys

Kershaw, Anthony

Shaw, M.

Campbell, Cordon (Moray & Nairn)

Kitson, Timothy

Skeet, T. H. H.

Channon, H. P. G.

Langford-Holt, Sir John

Smith, Dudley (Br'ntf'd & Chiswlck)

Chataway, Christopher

Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry

Smithers, Peter

Chichester-Clark, R.

Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

Summers, Sir Spencer (Aylesbury)

Clarke, Brig. Terence (Portsmth, W.)

Lilley, F. J. P.

Talbot, John E.

Cleaver, Leonard

Loveys, Walter H.

Taylor, Frank (M'ch'st'r, Moss Side)

Corfield, F. V.

Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh

Thomas, Peter (Conway)

Courtney, Cdr. Anthony

McLaren, Martin

Vane, W. M. F.

Crowder, F. P.

Macpherson, Niall (Dumfries)

Wakefield, Edward (Derbyshire, W.)

Currie, G. B. H.

Markham, Major Sir Frank

Wakefield, Sir waved (St. M'lebone)

Deedes, W. F.

Mason, Roy

Walder, David

du Cann, Edward

Matthews, Gordon (Meriden)

Walker, Peter

Duncan, Sir James

Mawby, Ray

Wells, John (Maidstone)

Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carahalton)

Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.

Whitelaw, William

Elliott, R. W. (Nwcastle-upon-Tyne, N.)

More, Jasper (Ludlow)

Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

Farr, John

Osborn, John (Hallam)

Woodnutt, Mark

Fraser, Ian (Plymouth, Sutton)

Osborne, Sir Cyril (Louth)

Worsley, Marcus

Gardner, Edward

Page, Graham (Crosby)

Glover, Sir Douglas

Pannell, Norman (Kirkdale)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

Gower, Raymond

Pearson, Frank (Clitheroe)

Mr. Graeme Finlay and

Griffiths, David (Rother Valley)

Peart, Frederick

Mr. Brian Bats ford.

Hamilton, Michael (Wellingborough)

Peel, John

NOES

Grimond, Rt. Hon. J.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

Thorpe, Jeremy

Mr. Donald Wade and

Mr. Arthur Holt.

Resolved,
That the Import Duties (General) (No. 3) Order, 1962 (S.I., 1962, No. 233), dated 6th February, 1962, a copy of which was laid before this House on 9th February, be approved.

LOCAL AUTHORITIES (HISTORIC BUILDINGS) [MONEY]
Resolution reported,
That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to make provision for contributions
As the hon. Member for Bolton, West (Mr. Holt) quite rightly said, the applicants cannot this year show that their profits have been reduced, but as their costs have undoubtedly increased over the last few years and, as I have said, prices are now lower than they were in 1958, it seems not unreasonable that this protection should be given to our horticulturists.
Question put:—
The House divided: Ayes 94, Noes 2.
by local authorities towards the repair and maintenance of buildings of historic or architectural interest, it is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of any increase attributable to the provisions of that Act in the sums payable out of such moneys by way of Rate-deficiency Grant or Exchequer Equalisation Grant under the enactments relating to local government in England and Wales or in Scotland.
Resolution agreed to.

HILL COW SUBSIDY (WAVERLEY)
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. E. Wakefield.]
11.10 p.m.
Mr. James Scott-Hopkins: I wish to raise the case of a constituent, Mr. Hammett, a farmer on a considerable scale in the hill land round by the area of Waverley. Last year, the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food decided that Mr. Hammett's farm, and others in my constituency, totalling just over 70, would no longer qualify for the hill cow subsidy.
This meant that the hill land which Mr. Hammett has been farming was thereby excluded from the hill cow subsidy area, together with the land of other constituents concerned. This decision was surely of a very wide-ranging effect. I do not think that I can challenge the Minister's right to make such a decision. His right to do so is in the Hill Farming Act, 1956, and in the parent act of 1946.
The point at issue is that, when the 1956 Act was passed, it was clearly understood, by the farmers and the N.F.U. that it would run for seven years, until the end of 1963. Therefore, these farmers laid plans accordingly. In farming, one cannot change from one system to another with great rapidity; one must have time in order to get the new system working well and showing a reasonable and profitable result.
I am reinforced in this by a survey conducted by Professor Ellison, who showed that a very good return had been given to the nation by investing in marginal lands by means of such things as improvement grants. But the Professor emphasised that this must be of long-term duration, for it was no good asking the farmers to change quickly from one thing to another. This was particularly relevant in the case of hill and moorland farming, where life is extremely hard and rough.
My right hon. Friend must therefore justify taking out of the provisions of the Act these farms in my constituency, particularly that of Mr. Hammett. It is easy for my right hon. Friend to say
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that he can do this under the terms of the Act, but the Act lays down what qualifies a farm for inclusion in the hill cow subsidy. It says that it must be land situated in or consisting predominantly of hill, mountains or heath. Obviously, there cannot be changes in such land in four or five or even seven years. My constituents believe that they are still eligible for the subsidy.
The second qualification is that the land must, even after improvement, be suitable for breeding and rearing of sheep or cattle and not for growing crops for sale, and be suitable for hill or mixed farming. There was no question until last year that Mr. Hammett's farm did not qualify under this heading. From my observation, I know that on the 300-odd acres he farms there are no milking herds or arable crops. This applies to many of my constituents in the total of 70 who were excluded. They do not and cannot possibly fatten or milk, or, indeed, have arable land either. Therefore, on these points, which are the main qualifications for land eligible for the hill cow farming subsidy, surely my right hon. Friend has no right to change his decision either in this case or the others?
The strange thing is that my right hon. Friend's regional controller wrote to my constituent after he had been excluded from the hill cow subsidy saying:
"We would agree, of course, that the appearance of any farm would vary according to the period of the year when it is inspected, but the intrinsic quality of the land which is, after all, what decides its eligibility under the Hill Cow Subsidy Scheme, would not be subject to seasonal variations of this kind."
That was in the letter which said that this farm was to be excluded because it fell outside the area of eligible land.
On those two grounds, I find it incomprehensible why my constituent has been excluded, and this applies also to many of my other hill cow farmers who have been excluded.
It is vital to ensure that a farm which has been improved with the help of the hill cow subsidy scheme is not thereby excluded from receiving any further help. From 1951 to 1957 Mr. Hammett's farm was considered to be eligible for this subsidy. He was eligible for this because his land was poor. The average rainfall is about 75 ins. a year, and

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that is something. Mr. Hammett has spent a great deal of money on improving and reclaiming his land.
If my hon. Friend is going to say—and I hope that he is not—that because the land has been improved as a result of this grant Mr. Hammett is to be excluded from it henceforth, this proposition will be unacceptable, because it will mean that the bad farmer will go on receiving the grant, and the good farmer will be excluded because he has used the grant for the proper purpose of improving his land. He will in future be debarred from receiving a grant.
It is important that my hon. Friend should accept the principle that no matter how much a farmer may improve his land—as Mr. Hammett has done—he should not be excluded from receiving the hill cow subsidy. The land has not changed. The quality of the soil has not changed. The type of farming carried on has not changed. It is not because Mr. Hammett has improved his farm. What is the reason for this change?
I can only think that it is because the officials who originally inspected his farm have changed and that, therefore, a mistake was made; that a mistake was perhaps made in 1957 when this farm was included in the scheme. The officials who allowed this farm into the scheme have changed. Indeed, we have a new Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, and even a new Joint Parliamentary Secretary. Because we have new officials and new Ministers, the original decision has been changed.
I maintain that it is untenable from the point of view of the farming community if every time new officials come into office they look at the Act and interpret it differently, or visit the farm in question and interpret the conditions there differently, or if every time we get new Ministers we get a new interpretation of the Act.
This is a policy of madness. It will mean that no farmer will know from one month to the next what amount of grant he will receive. Surely it cannot be because the personnel of the county agricultural executive committee have changed? Certainly the people who inspected the farm in 1957 were different from those who inspected it recently under my right hon. Friend's revision.
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I suppose the reason for this is to be found in a letter which I received from my hon. Friend earlier last year, one written on 18th May. It said that as a result of discussions the Minister had decided that certain areas of Bodmin Moor receiving hill farming subsidy would cease to do so. It stated that the reason was that the Audit and Exchequer Department had insisted that a review should be carried out.
Why had the Audit and Exchequer Department so insisted? Was it because my right hon. Friend had received information which was laid with the Treasury? If so, where did it come from? This was in 1961. I must assume that his officials in Truro gave him the information. I have suggested that they were new officials who were not there originally. If they were there originally, one of them—a very important official, if I may say so; the Land Commissioner—wrote to another of my constituents saying that his decision was final. He wrote to a Mrs. Whitehouse saying that his decision to include her farm within the eligible land for hill farming subsidy was final. That was the Land Commissioner in 1958.
Yet we find that in 1961 the Minister's officials in Truro must have recommended either to my right hon. Friend or to the Treasury some new revision, apparently on the ground that something had gone wrong. Therefore, it must be a mistake which has been causing my constituents hardship. If it is a mistake, surely it is time for my hon. Friend to be large-hearted and magnanimous and admit that it is so. I have no wish to apportion blame on anybody, but if anything has happened because a mistake has been made, I beg my hon. Friend not to continue making the mistake and perpetuating a hardship which undoubtedly applies, if not in the case of Mr. Hammett, to many others of my constituents.
Here is an extraordinary point in the case. Mr. Hammett's farm is 356 acres. In 1951 the farm comprised half common moorland and half rough scrub on the moorside. It rises to a height of 550 feet and is completely exposed to the Atlantic; there is no high ground between it and the ocean, and the Atlantic gales and the salt air come in

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during the winter months. It was refused a grant for reclamation because it was too bad. The grant was refused by the Ministry, the N.F.U. consultants and the C.A.E.C. in 1951. Yet in 1961 it is taken out of the area because it is too good. This is madness.
On this farm—I will not weary the House with details of the figures—Mr. Hammett has done a tremendous amount of work in reclaiming it. He has reclaimed more than half what was there, and on it he has spent out of his own money—not grants—£14,000. His net profit over 10 years was £10,000—farming 356 acres. That is not particularly high considering the capital that he has had to invest in it. Talking about the capital costs does not take into account the actual labour that he has put into it.
This sort of situation has occurred all over my constituency—farmers at 900 ft. with a rainfall of more than 80 in. They have been excluded because of an arbitrary decision by my right hon. Friend to draw a line along a certain road, contour line or river, and a great deal of hardship has been caused by it.
Finally, on this farm there has been an enormous increase in both cattle and sheep. In 1951, the year the reclamation was started, there were 100 cattle and in 1961 180. In 1951 there were 170 sheep and in 1961 240 ewes. Before that date there was nothing. The land was common scrub with perhaps one animal per acre.
Surely the important principle here is that of the production of meat off the land. If the subsidy is stopped, the land will go back to what it was originally and become completely non-profitable. Over ten years the profit off the land amounted to a mere £4,200. If this land becomes common land again, the mutton and beef which has been reared on it will be lost and I cannot believe that such a decision is right. Even more so is this decision wrong in the case of the farmers who live up on the moors. I hope that my hon. Friend will regard this matter sympathetically. I am not trying to apportion the blame on any one body. I hope that the Minister will try to help us and that, in view of the circumstances, he will look again at this matter, particularly from the point of
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view of Mr. Hammett and from the point of view that we need more beef, mutton and lamb, and that the land should not be allowed to go back to its original state.
Mr. Jeremy Thorpe: May I ask for the help of the hon. Member for Cornwall, North (Mr. Scott-Hopkins) as I have great sympathy with what he has said? Does he know the nature and extent of the survey carried out in 1957 prior to the grant being made? Secondly, was there any subsequent inspection or survey prior to the receipt of the letter of 18th May in which the grant was revoked? Thirdly, were any reasons put forward for the revocation and, fourthly, what is the financial sum involved?
Mr. Scott-Hopkins: I hope that the hon. Gentleman will excuse me if I forget the sequence of his questions. The land was inspected by the A.E.C.—as it then was—on 1st July, 1951. It was turned down as being too poor. It was inspected again in 1957 by the C.A.E.C. and by the Minister's officers from Truro and was accepted into the hill cow farming area. It was inspected again in 1959 and in 1960 by the C.A.E.C. and the Minister's officers, and also by a panel from the N.F.U. which offered no opinion. After the inspections the recommendation of the C.A.E.C. was that this farm should be excluded. I would hasten to add that the personnel of the C.A.E.C. was not the same in the latter inspections as in the former and none of them was a hill farmer. The other question I have forgotten.
Mr. Thorpe: Were there indications of the reason for the revocation and what was the sum involved?
Mr. Scott-Hopkins: The letter was in reply to Mr. Hammett who wrote complaining that he had been excluded and asking to be included. But my right hon. Friend did not reply and the letter was passed to his regional officer.
11.28 p.m.
The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Mr. W. M. F. Vane): I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Cornwall, North (Mr. Scott-Hopkins) for the way in which he has presented the case for his constituent. This debate, I hope, will enable me to explain why

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we have been forced to stop paying this subsidy. The legislation does not allow us to continue, and this is not confined to the case of Mr. Hammett. It has nothing to do with a change of Minister, or of Parliamentary Secretary or of officials. It is simply a matter of what the Statute allows us to do. The question whether land is eligible in any year for subsidy must be determined according to the facts during that year.
In many of our grant and subsidy schemes, this one included, we have to face the problem of drawing distinctions between one farmer and another simply because our statutory authority requires us to see that certain tests are met before we pay out public money. Where there is a difference of opinion we do all we can to take account of experienced local opinion, including the views of the farmers concerned. But in the last resort my right hon. Friend must take the decision within the limits of what the law allows.
I agree that it is unfortunate for anyone to find his farm is no longer eligible for a specific subsidy, as has happened to Mr. Hammett. The purpose of the hill cow subsidy, which was introduced as long ago as 1953, was to encourage the improvement of grazings and the production of beef cattle on hill land which was inherently suitable only for livestock breeding and rearing. We were not aiming to help all the many farmers carrying on a breeding or rearing policy on land which could equally have been used for dairying or for the fattening of livestock or for a substantial acreage of crops for sale.
With this in mind the Statute lays down that to be eligible for hill cow subsidy, land must lie in an area of mountains, hills or heath and must not be capable, even after improvement, of being used for dairying, fattening or cash crops to any material extent. Here I think that my hon. Friend was not accurate when he described Mr. Hammett's farm because, according to the information which I have, some 75 acres were being used in 1961 for barley, 26 acres for potatoes, and the greater part of the farm is capable of being ploughed. I think, therefore, that my hon. Friend should bear that in mind.
This requirement in the statutory scheme governs the payment of hill cow subsidy and we have no discretion to
1502
depart from it. Moreover, the subsidy is an annual one, so that the statutory tests have to be satisfied every time it is paid and I have the authority of my right hon. and learned Friend the Attorney-General for that ruling. Naturally, there are extensive areas of mountain, hill and heathland which unquestionably could never be used for dairying, fattening or growing a substantial proportion of arable crops and there is land so obviously suitable for these purposes that it can be rejected out of hand. But there are a number of places where the distinction is not so clear. This can happen along the contour where the upland and lowland merge or in districts where fertile valleys run up into the hills. It can also happen where land which is intrinsically suitable for other uses has traditionally been used for livestock rearing. But if no improvements have been carried out such land can look very poor indeed.
After improvement, however, it can prove to be very different. This is the case in many parts of the West Country and particularly on the fringe of Bodmin Moor where Mr. Hammett farms. Perhaps I could take this opportunity of saying that our rejection is no reflection on Mr. Hammett's ability as a farmer, rather the reverse. For many years he served as chairman of the northern district committee of the Cornwall Agricultural Executive Committee. In that position his advice and experience were invaluable and his resignation has been a loss to us.
On poor-looking upland, such as I have described, Mr. Hammett undertook comprehensive improvement schemes costing some thousands of pounds to which the Ministry agreed to contribute to 50 per cent. of the cost under the Livestock Rearing Act, 1951, which includes the same definition of eligible land as the hill cow subsidy scheme. As a result of these improvements, and by the generous use of fertilisers and first-class husbandry, he proved that this land was capable of producing good quality lambs, good yields of seed potatoes and fair cereal crops.
I have briefly mentioned some acreages, and I can say that of the total of 357 acres something like 321 acres have been classed as arable. It has been argued by my hon. Friend that on the

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face of it it might look rather unfair that a farmer like Mr. Hammett should be liable to deprive himself of the hill cow subsidy by proving that his land was better than anyone thought it to be in 1953, but I am sure that we would have been quite wrong to continue paying hill cow subsidy on his land after he had shown that it could do better than we thought.
I would, however, remind the House that the object of the improvement schemes under the Hill Farming and Livestock Rearing Acts was to rehabilitate hill farms which could be used for livestock rearing but little else. I am certain that those responsible for approving Mr. Hammett's improvement schemes for grant-aid in 1952 and 1954 were right to do so and we are pledged to pay our share of their cost until completion. This is, of course, also the case with certain other farmers on the fringe of Bodmin Moor.
In 1953 a number of them were admitted for the new hill cow subsidy because their land, like Mr. Hammett's, appeared to be not suitable to produce anything other than store or breeding stock. In recent years technical advance and better methods of husbandry have shown many of these farms which do not lie at a high altitude to be suitable for dairying, fattening or crop production. Once this was shown to be so, we had no power to continue paying the hill cow subsidy because of the Statute.
I have looked very carefully into the circumstances in which 46 farms. including Mr. Hammett's, were excluded from the subsidy and a further 35 had their eligible acreage reduced, and I am satisfied that everything possible was done to conduct the review of these farms fairly and to take account of the farmers' own representations and expert local opinion. I say again that we are simply concerned with the hill cow subsidy and are not doing anything likely greatly to change a farm system as my hon. Friend inferred in his speech. My right hon. Friend saw the hon. Member and the hon. Member for Bodmin (Mr. Marshall) and explained the position, and I hope the House will agree after I have outlined the course of events that the Ministry has been reasonable.
After our professional officers had repeated doubts about the eligibility of
1504
certain land, a panel of Ministry officers and members of the Cornwall Agricultural Executive Committee reviewed the area in May, 1959, and indicated that certain districts were potentially ineligible. These conclusions were discussed with the farmers' representatives locally, and a joint panel of the county agricultural executive committee and the National Farmers' Union inspected the area again in November. Very careful consideration was then given to the matter at the headquarters of the Ministry and my right hon. Friend himself before he decided that the land was indeed ineligible and that we must therefore stop paying the subsidy to the farmers concerned. Those farmers who made representations against the decision were again visited by panels of the agricultural executive committee with the National Farmers' Union representation if they wished and had the opportunity of stating their case to the committee in July, 1961. As an exceptional arrangement, the subsidy was paid for the whole of 1961. Thus it was a full two years from the time when we first felt doubts about this land to the time when we stopped paying subsidy. I am therefore satisfied that the most careful consideration has been given to the eligibility of this land, but I am afraid there is no possibility of reconsidering the decision.
I assure the hon. Member that it is a matter of great regret that someone as progressive and helpful to the Ministry as Mr. Hammett should feel so keenly about the decision and I do hope that the explanation I have given tonight will go some way towards convincing him and other farmers in a like situation that we have only been actuated by an honest endeavour to administer this subsidy scheme in Cornwall in the way that Parliament intended. My hon. Friend will realise that it is our duty to satisfy the tests that the Statutes lay down and that it is also our duty to maintain standards of consistency between one area and another. When we carry out these reviews we do so in no other spirit than I have described as an honest endeavour to administer these schemes in Cornwall and elsewhere in the way that Parliament intended.
Question put and agreed to.
Adjourned accordingly at twenty-one minutes to Twelve o'clock.

EMPLOYMENT
  Tristan da Cunha Islanders
  Tristan da Cunha Islanders
  Brixton
  Brixton
  Redundant Workers, Kirkby
  Redundant Workers, Kirkby
  Unemployment
  Unemployment
  Wadebridge, Padstow and Camelford
  Wadebridge, Padstow and Camelford
  Bishop Auckland
  Bishop Auckland
  School Leavers (North-East)
  School Leavers (North-East)
  Northern Region
  Northern Region
MINISTRY OF DEFENCE
  Singapore Base
  Singapore Base
  Nuclear Tests
  Nuclear Tests
  Hawker P.1127
  Hawker P.1127
ROYAL NAVY
  Aircraft Carriers
  Aircraft Carriers
  Hovercraft
  Hovercraft
  Ropes
  Ropes
  Army Absentee
  Army Absentee
  Recruitment
  Recruitment
  H.M. Ships (Royal Marine Detachments)
  H.M. Ships (Royal Marine Detachments)
  Holy Loch
  Holy Loch
BRITISH ARMY
  Maindy Barracks, Cardiff
  Maindy Barracks, Cardiff
  French Paratroops (United Kingdom Visit)
  French Paratroops (United Kingdom Visit)
ROYAL AIR FORCE
  Usworth Airfield, Sunderland
  Usworth Airfield, Sunderland
  Low Flying (Kettering)
  Low Flying (Kettering)
  Fylingdales Early Warning Station
  Fylingdales Early Warning Station
SCOTLAND
  Housing
  Housing
  Illegitimacy
  Illegitimacy
  Acquisition of Property, Glasgow
  Acquisition of Property, Glasgow
  Home Helps
  Home Helps
  Houses (Building Costs)
  Houses (Building Costs)
  Secondary Education
  Secondary Education
  Vatersay and Barra (Ferry Service)
  Vatersay and Barra (Ferry Service)
  Roads and Schools, Barra
  Roads and Schools, Barra
  Hospital Plan (Staff)
  Hospital Plan (Staff)
  Uncertificated Teachers
  Uncertificated Teachers
ROADS
  Manor Way, Whitchurch
  Manor Way, Whitchurch
  Rossett Level Crossing, Wrexham
  Rossett Level Crossing, Wrexham
  Pedestrian Crossing, Iver Heath
  Pedestrian Crossing, Iver Heath
  Pedestrian Islands, Harrietsham
  Pedestrian Islands, Harrietsham
  Road Accident, Coniston
  Road Accident, Coniston
TRANSPORT
  Dartford-Purfleet Tunnel (Turnstiles)
  Dartford-Purfleet Tunnel (Turnstiles)
  Cyclists (Tour of Britain)
  Cyclists (Tour of Britain)
  Bus Fares
  Bus Fares
  River Pollution (Foam)
  River Pollution (Foam)
RAILWAYS
  Closures
  Closures
  GREECE (STERLING BONDHOLDERS)
  GREECE (STERLING BONDHOLDERS)
  CUBA
  CUBA
  SOUTH VIETNAM
  SOUTH VIETNAM
  UNITED NATIONS (PARLIAMENTARY OBSERVERS)
  UNITED NATIONS (PARLIAMENTARY OBSERVERS)
  NEPAL (GURKHAS)
  NEPAL (GURKHAS)
  KATANGA (UNITED NATIONS FORCES)
  KATANGA (UNITED NATIONS FORCES)
HOME DEPARTMENT
  Road Vehicles (Explosive Loads)
  Road Vehicles (Explosive Loads)
  Motor Cyclists (Speeding Convictions)
  Motor Cyclists (Speeding Convictions)
  Shoreham Urban District Council (Letter)
  Shoreham Urban District Council (Letter)
NORTHERN RHODESIA
  Constitution
  Constitution
JAMAICA
  Sugar (World Price)
  Sugar (World Price)
EDUCATION
  Training Colleges
  Training Colleges
PENSIONS AND NATIONAL INSURANCE
  Benefits
  Benefits
TRADE AND COMMERCE
  Local Employment Act (Wales)
  Local Employment Act (Wales)

Preamble
The House met at half-past two of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR On the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Oxford

THE EARL OF SNOWDON
Antony Charles Robert Armstrong-Jones, Esquire, having been created Viscount Linley, of Nymans in the County of Sussex, and Earl of Snowdon—Was (in the usual manner) introduced,
The Earl of Shaftesbury—Sat first in Parliament after the death of his grandfather.

ROAD VEHICLES' HEADLAMP SIGNALS
2.46 p.m.
LORD MONTAGU OF BEAULIEU: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will consider the advisability of introducing into the Highway Code instructions in order to bring about a uniform system by which road vehicles may use flashing headlights for signalling purposes.]
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF TRANSPORT (LORD CHESHAM): My Lords, this matter was considered at the last meeting of the Committee on Road Safety, of which I am chairman. The Committee thought that while a code of headlamp signals might not be understood by the public generally and would lead to danger, there were times when a signal by flashing headlamps would be a useful alternative to a signal by the horn. They recommended the Minister of Transport to advise the public to this effect and to consider including in the next edition of the Highway Code a statement that a signal by headlamps is nothing more than an indication of one's presence on the road
952
to some other road user who might otherwise be unaware of it. The flashing of headlamps would thus have the same significance as sounding the horn. The Minister proposes to accept the Committee's advice. He has informed various interested organisations that he intends to make a statement on these lines shortly.
LORD MONTAGU OF BEAULIEU: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his Answer. I am sure this will be most welcome advice to motorists. Is the noble Lord aware that heavy commercial vehicles in particular are using, and have been doing so for some time, another signal which means "Come on"? Will they now be discouraged from using this signal? Otherwise, I am afraid accidents are going to happen.
LORD CHESHAM: It is really for the reason that such signals can be misunderstood that the Committee recommended against giving them recognition. I do not think it is possible to ban such a code completely, particularly one recognised among lorry drivers, but we should like to make quite certain what is the real significance of signals by flashing headlamps.

TAX ON ELECTRICAL THERMAL-STORAGE HEATERS
2.50 p.m.
LORD FERRIER: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, in view of the importance of improving the load factor of the electricity supply system, they will give encouragement to the development of the off-peak load by abolishing or reducing the recently imposed purchase tax on electrical thermal-storage space-heating units.]
THE MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO (LORD MILLS): No, my Lords. The importance of the contribution which off-peak consumption makes to improving the load factor and the efficiency of the electricity supply system is quite clear; but to use purchase taxes in its support is open to objection. Oil, gas and electric room heaters are now

953
taxed at the same rate, and to make an exception of a particular type would introduce an undesirable discrimination into this field.
LORD FERRIER: My Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for his Answer, may I ask whether he, appreciating the advantages of the storage type heater for the off-peak load, would suggest to his right honourable friend that a reduction might be considered, perhaps sufficient only to bring the cost to the consumer of the storage type apparatus level with the cost of the non-storage type apparatus?
LORD MILLS: My Lords, they are actually at the same level, so I do not think there would be any purpose in making such a suggestion to my right honourable friend.
LORD STONHAM: Is it not the case that this difficulty has arisen because of the introduction of domestic type storage heating appliances, and that the industrial types were not previously subject to purchase tax? Is it not possible to find a way of exempting at least the industrial types on which previously no tax was paid?
LORD MILLS: My Lords, it is quite true that no tax was formerly paid on the industrial type and it now bears the same tax as the domestic type. That has really made possible the use of a domestic type, because the discrimination that existed before prevented many people from using them.
LORD STONHAM: That means to say that they all have to suffer alike, and that would make it easier for the domestic people. It is somewhat difficult to understand.
LORD FERRIER: My Lords, might I suggest that perhaps the noble Lord misunderstood my first supplementary, which implied that to the consumer the storage type heater is more expensive intrinsically than the non-storage type? Would my noble friend consider whether the tax could be adjusted, so that the ultimate cost to the user. including tax, could be the same?
LORD MILLS: Yes, my Lords, I quite understand the question. I will, of course, put the point before my right honourable friend, but I can hold out
954
no hope that the purchase tax will be altered in the way suggested.
LORD AIREDALE: My Lords, following what was said by the noble Lord, Lord Stonham, would it not be perfectly easy to have different models of these heaters, one being exempt from purchase tax for use by industry, and one bearing purchase tax for use by domestic consumers? Could this not be perfectly easily controlled, bearing in mind that the electricity boards have to make connections of these units, and at the time of connection it could be confirmed that purchase tax was not being evaded?
LORD MILLS: Yes, my Lords; I see no difficulty. But the other course has been followed, which is to levy purchase tax on all types.

TAX RELIEFS FOR PART-TIME PROFESSIONAL MARRIED WOMEN
2.54 p.m.
LORD FERRIER: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will take steps to ensure that married women who undertake part-time employment as occupational or physiotherapists, teachers or the like are aware of the tax reliefs available to them.]
LORD MILLS: My Lords, Her Majesty's Government will continue to call attention to these reliefs as they have done in the past when it appears useful to do so, in seeking to encourage married women with particular professional qualifications to return to employment.
LORD TAYLOR: My Lords, is there any particular relief available to occupational therapists and physiotherapists who are working part-time in the National Health Service, or is this relief available only to those engaged in private practice?
LORD MILLS: No, my Lords; it applies to all people working part-time, and I will let the noble Lord have particulars of it.
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL: My Lords, while the kind consideration of the noble Lord, Lord Ferrier, for these women is appreciated, would they not perhaps appreciate an assurance from the Government that they would be adequately paid, rather more than that they should be reminded that there could be a subsidy from the Revenue for their miserably inadequate wage?
LORD MILLS: My Lords, I would remind the noble Lady that it is not long since we debated that matter very fully.

SAFETY STANDARDS OF FOREIGN AIRLINES
2.56 p.m.
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are aware of the increasing extent to which British travel agents who book holiday tours are employing foreign airlines which are not subject to the stringent requirements in respect to safety and financial standards which rightly apply to our own airlines, and what steps they will take to safeguard the lives of intending holiday-makers and the interests of our air transport industry.]
LORD DENHAM: My Lords, foreign airlines require the permission of my right honourable friend the Minister of Aviation to operate to this country, and it is true that they will be carrying more of this traffic than hitherto. The great bulk of it will, however, continue to be carried by British airlines. Their services, in turn, are subject to the approval of the country of destination, and it is not in this country's interest to promote international policies discriminating against foreign airlines. Nevertheless, it is not my right honourable friend's policy to grant applications by foreign airlines in circumstances where the Air Transport Licensing Board would refuse an application by a British airline. By international agreement it is for each Government to maintain safety standards for its own airlines. But my right honourable, friend would not grant a permit to a foreign operator about
956
whose safety standards he entertained doubts, without consulting the national aviation authority responsible.
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, is the noble Lord not aware that it is not a question of discrimination against foreign airlines, but of ensuring the safety and well-being of British passengers? That is the important point. Is it not the case that 235 applications from British firms have been refused by the Air Transport Licensing Board, as compared with 228 which were accepted, and that the foreign airlines do not have to satisfy the same stringent conditions which rightly have to be observed by British airlines? Does the noble Lord not agree that this is, in fact, discrimination against British airlines, which is resulting in the trebling of charter traffic of the foreign airlines?
LORD DENHAM: My Lords, by international agreement it is the responsibility of the Government of registry to enforce safety standards, and the Ministry would consult the aviation authority concerned about any foreign applicant whose safety standards were in doubt. The question of safety is a matter of international agreement, my Lords, and it is a question of relying on the safety standards of the country concerned. I am afraid that, without notice, I do not have in front of me the figures of applications of British operators, who have been refused. The noble Lord fired rather a lot of questions at me. What was his final question?
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, I asked whether it was not right that foreign airlines should in fact be subjected to the same standards of safety as those to which our British airlines are rightly subjected; and the noble Lord's answer has not given that assurance. If he has not the figures of British firms, which I have given him, can he say how many foreign airlines have been refused permission to run a service for which they have applied?
LORD DENHAM: My Lords, it is in order to ensure the safety standards of foreign airlines that my right honourable friend makes these inquiries. With regard to applications from foreign operators, applications are still coming in to operate services in the summer of 1962, and it is difficult to measure the increase in foreign participation in this business. Up

957
to February 23 the Minister of Aviation had received 65 applications for permission, compared with a total of 102 for 1961. I cannot yet give the figures of how many of these applications were successful.
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, would the noble Lord not agree that when these agents are taking bookings for holidays they should in every case disclose the airline and the type of aircraft on which the booking has been made? And would the noble Lord not also agree that, while we are concerned with the safety of passengers and require a high level of safety for the aircraft, we must never forget the safety of those persons who are living adjacent to the airfields; and therefore we should expect overseas airlines to maintain the same safety level as we require of our own airlines?
LORD DENHAM: My Lords, I quite agree with the second half of the noble Lord's supplementary question. With regard to the first half of his question, my right honourable friend is ensuring that, in future—and this, for reasons of administration, will start only in the winter of this year—licences will be issued subject to the following condition: that any advertisement relating wholly or in part to an air transport service to be provided under the licence that is issued, whether or not it is an advertisement published by or on behalf of the holder, should include the name of the holder of the licence and should indicate (a) that it is intended that he is to be the operator of the aircraft providing the service; and (b) the type of aircraft he intends to operate for the purpose of providing the service. It is proposed to make permits issued to foreign operators subject to the same condition.
LORD SILKIN: My Lords, the noble Lord has given us a great deal of information, for some of which we have not asked, but could he give us a simple answer to the question which is implied in what we want to know—namely, are the safety requirements of these foreign airlines less stringent than our own?
LORD DENHAM: My Lords, safety standards are a matter for international agreement.
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the last piece of information which he read out about the advertisements contained not one provision about safety standards? Is he further aware that the circular which has been sent by the Ministry to the British Travel Association deals only with traffic justification and again does not deal with safety? What we are concerned about is to ensure, in so far as it is possible, that there is no repetition of the kind of accidents we had last year, and that people should be flying in British 'planes knowing that they are safe.
LORD DENHAM: My Lords, if the noble Lord will read my original Answer, I think he will find that my right honourable friend is just as concerned with safety as he is.
LORD LINDGREN: My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that, even within the very stringent regulations (and they are perfectly properly stringent regulations) of the Ministry of Aviation in this country, there is a considerable variation in the standards of maintenance as between operators; and that inspection abroad does not arise as it does in this country with the Ministry of Aviation? How do the Government propose to check that?
LORD DENHAM: My Lords, that is another question. If the noble Lord will bring to my notice instances where he thinks that the safety standards of foreign airlines are not what they should be, I shall be only too glad to look into them and to draw them to the attention of my right honourable friend.
LORD TAYLOR: My Lords, arising out of the noble Lord's fifth supplementary answer, are we to understand that, in future, advertisements for trips abroad by travel agencies will include the name of the airline on which the travellers are going to travel? If so, that will be a very useful piece of information, I think, and a good help to the public in choosing a safe 'plane.
LORD DENHAM: My Lords, I think the technical term is "the name of the operator"; but that is so.
LORD STONHAM: But that will not happen until after next summer.
THE EARL OF GOSFORD: My Lords, may I ask my noble friend (he may not be able to give me the answer now, but I should be grateful if he would perhaps write to me about it) whether these airlines, the subject of the Question to-day, are subject to international agreement on air fares, or whether they can charge any fares they like?
LORD DENHAM: I think I should like notice of that question.
THE EARL OF GOSFORD: Would the noble Lord let me have that information?
LORD DENHAM: Certainly.
LORD FORBES: My Lords, when grant-aided passages are given to passengers, will Her Majesty's Government ensure that the passengers go by British aircraft?
LORD DENHAM: My Lords, I am afraid that that, too, is a different question.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
3.5 p.m.
LORD NEWTON: My Lords, I should like to inform the House that my noble friend Lord Hailsham will be making a statement about the Northern Rhodesia Constitution at an appropriate moment after half-past three.

COMMONWEALTH IMMIGRANTS BILL
Brought from the Commons; read 1a, and to be printed.

THE NATURE CONSERVANCY
3.6 p.m.
LORD SHACKLETON LORD SHACKLETON rose to call attention to the Report of the Nature Conservancy (H.C. 20); and to move for Papers. The noble Lord said: My Lords, I rise to draw attention to this Report. But may I first ask this of the noble Viscount the Leader of the House? I suppose there is no chance of our having the statement now, so that your Lordships do not have to wait with fury while my speech goes on after half-past three?
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL AND MINISTER FOR SCIENCE (VISCOUN HAILSHAM): My Lords, I am so sorry. I was having my attention distracted at the very moment the noble Lord was asking his question. I wonder whether he would kindly repeat it.
LORD SHACKLETON: I was asking whether it would not be for the convenience of the House if we did not wait on the pleasure of the other place, but had the statement now, so that noble Lords are not required to wait after half-past three should my speech go on longer than twenty-five minutes.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, I am afraid that would not be possible. The arrangements between the two Houses are—at least, this is as I understand them to be—that where, as it were, the Minister principally responsible is in another place, the Minister who repeats the statement here does not do so until he has word that the statement has begun in another place; and I do not think it would be wise to depart from that tradition.
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, I fully accept that, but I have at least given notice to noble Lords that they will have to wait at least a period before they come to listen to the very important statement.
My Lords, I should first like to say how very noble it is of the Leader of the House to be here at all. I heard last night that he was in bed with a high temperature and bronchitis, and I think it is a tribute to his interest in this subject of nature conservancy—indeed, he was very largely responsible for sparking oft this debate—that he is here, and that we are discussing for the first time the work of a very important research council. I should also like to say that your Lordships' House has been heavily involved in this body. The noble Lord, Lord Hurcomb, is of course chairman of the Nature Conservancy. Unfortunately, to-day he is silenced, as chairmen of Government bodies tend to be, but he will be a free man (regrettably for the Nature Conservancy but beneficially to us) in regard to these subjects after the end of March; and I am sure your Lordships will wish to congratulate him on his work during this time.

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When we look at the history of nature conservation in this country we can see why it is that the Nature Conservancy is having to run so very fast, and therefore subject itself to criticism, in order to meet up, not only with national requirements but also with the achievements that have been attained in other countries. It is fifty years since, in the United States, Theodore Roosevelt gave that tremendous lead, calling every governor of every State to Washington, which led to the passing of conservation laws and the appointment of expert staffs. In this country, we have been rather slower.
During the First World War Charles Rothschild, through the Society for the Promotion of Nature Reserves, tried to get something started here by submitting to the Board of Agriculture a schedule of areas which were considered worthy preservation. It included a good many of the existing national nature reserves, and also a number of areas which now have been irreparably damaged and lost. Then the Geddes Axe fell, before conservancy could be launched; the Society had to start all over again in the Second World War, and I think it was left to my noble friend Lord Morrison of Lambeth to set up the Conservancy, which was given its Charter in 1949. At least it did not have to wait for yet another war to provide a stimulus for action to be taken.
I should like to say one thing straight away: that conservancy is much more than a sort of naturalist counterpart of the National Trust. It does not exist only to look after nature reserves, or to preserve sites which are notable for their fauna and flora; it is concerned with all the fauna and flora in this country. The Nature Conservancy is also concerned with research into fauna and flora, and into the widest aspects of nature conservancy and research. I would stress that something like 10s. in every £1 of the £400,000 or so—it is between £400,000 and £500,000—is spent on research. The work of the Nature Conservancy, and of those associated with it, represents a serious attempt to arrive at a proper understanding by man of his environment. It is not simply a matter of reserving a few places for scientific study, or even little patches of wild life here and there; it is much more profound.
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Although I shall deal with certain particular points in the work of the Nature Conservancy, I should like to address my remarks rather more to the broader picture.
We are all familiar with the fact that, ever since man has existed, he has sought to interfere with the environment in which he has lived. The countryside in which we live, much of which we now seek to preserve, with difficulty, is essentially man-made. Ever since Mesolithic times (I think it was Mesolithic times, when we started playing around with new-fangled technology) we have been interfering with the balance of nature; and agriculture was the first, and still is largely the major, interference.
The danger does not come only from urbanization: it comes from everything we do in the countryside, and particularly with the advances of technology. It is the purpose of the agriculturist, and it is in the interests of the community, to raise more crops—to establish, in effect, a monoculture, and therefore to drive out the forms of life which have normally provided a balanced environment. This, of course, is a major interference. On other occasions, we have discussed the consequences of the destruction that has been caused in large areas of the world through bad or ill-conceived (in the long term) agricultural methods, whether they be in the creation of dust bowls, or in the lowering of the water table, and the general destruction of the ecological balance. If we look abroad, it appears as if in Africa man may succeed, in a mere 70 years time (in fact, he has already gone a long way towards it), in doing something which took the Europeans in Europe more like 1,000 or 2,000 years to do in the way of destruction. When we look at the devastated areas of Southern Europe and North Africa we must remember that these again are the consequences of technological advance, even of a primitive kind
It is against this background, my Lords, that we must consider the work of the Nature Conservancy, even in this very fortunate island, which is one of the few areas in the world that is practically immune—unless man tries very hard—from the sort of general gross erosion which is such a serious factor

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in other countries. None the less, we have to learn to live on terms, and I think there are reasons why we should pay particular attention in this country—and I draw your Lordships attention to it—to the Report of the Advisory Council on Scientific Policy, which was published in 1960. The Council say this in part of their Report:
"The arguments for the most effective use of what we have are therefore very strong indeed"—
and they have already said that the United Kingdom is not richly endowed with natural resources—
"and we believe that in this field there is scope for direct action through the Research Councils and other scientific agencies to ensure that scientific methods are applied to the problems of conservation. We are satisfied that there is a significant absence of basic research in the scientific assessment of such major problems as the conservation and long-term utilisation of our water supplies; and in formulating the considerations on which policies of land utilisation can be based, we feel that much remains to be done towards a scientific classification of land capability,"—
and so on. There are a number of repeated statements about new measures being required to deal with basic research relating to the conservation of natural resources.
Earlier this month this House, in my view, took a historic decision over Ullswater. We now have to face the consequences of the decision, which the House took against the advice, very largely, of the Government, and we have to decide what the implications are. An important water undertaking—namely, Manchester—was debarred from obtaining water in a way that seemed, after, no doubt, very careful consideration, to be the most economical and the easiest way of meeting its commitment. That decision of the House of Lords cannot be related to this single point. It was, in effect, a decision that water, and the demands for it, must not be treated in isolation from the other needs of the community. In this case the decision related to the amenity factors of Ullswater; and I must say, so that there is no misunderstanding, that I was wholly in sympathy with the decision of the House.
But, my Lords, as I say, we must now face the consequences. It may seem strange that, in this wet Island of ours,
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there are not unlimited supplies of water. Some time in the next 30 years we are almost certainly going to have to look for water sources other than the fresh water which we find in our own land. There are already some parts of the country which are insolvent in terms of water, in the sense that they have to import from other parts; and other counties will become so. Essex will be insolvent in another ten years; Manchester certainly in another ten years. In America they have a map which shows the dates on which the various States will go bankrupt from a water-supply standpoint and will have to become importers. Yet only now, just after we have taken this decision on Ullswater, is it seriously proposed to carry out hydrological research.
This matter is dealt with in some detail in the Report of the Nature Conservancy, on pages 31 and 32. The Conservancy has already had a good deal of experience (in so far as anybody has had any experience) in investigation in watershed areas, and is primarily expert on the biological and the physiographical aspects of water supply. It was only last year that the Nature Conservancy was urging, at a special Conference of the British Waterworks Association that foresight was required in regard to competing claims to the use of water, and co-operation to avoid friction and to ensure the wide acceptance of wise policies. They emphasised that the many interested parties should not press individual claims on water supply undertakings and advised that factual information must be obtained and agreed principles must be worked out.
Has the Nature Conservancy the funds to play its part in this matter? The D.S.I.R. hydrological unit which again is the responsibility of the noble Viscount the Leader of the House, is in existence in theory, but I am told that there is still no money available. If we are not to run into serious trouble and frustration, this is a matter on which some real action and energy and, about all, money must be made available. It is clear from the Report of the Nature Conservancy that this is a matter of great importance. This illustrates my point that the Nature Conservancy, or some other body, ought

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to be concerned with the wider aspects of our natural resources. I am well aware that the Slater Committee are considering this matter, but we need to think not merely in terms of national production but also in terms of our natural resources production. We have plenty of national income economists. I do not know how many natural resources economists—how many ecologists—we have in this country.
Some of the research being carried out by the Nature Conservancy is contributing towards this and is a means of estimating—I am sorry to use these terms, but they illustrate what I want to say—the value of our biological capital and the best way to get the right returns from it. A small but good example of the help which is being given is contained in page 14 of the Report, which deals with the work of the Nature Conservancy in the island of Rhum. Rhum was made a nature reserve in 1957, primarily for research purposes. At that time, it produced sheep and deer and the vegetation was rapidly deteriorating, but since then the Nature Conservancy has already achieved an output of meat, this time wholly in terms of venison, equivalent to the output from sheep, and improved the vegetation. An area has been set aside for afforestation. Important scientific results are being achieved which, I am told, have been of real value to the Red Deer Commission. This illustrates how the Nature Conservancy can help us in the right use of land. This work is comparable with the policies which are being worked out in Africa, where antelope farming may be preferable in some areas to cattle farming.
In passing, I would refer to the work of the Red Deer Commission, if only because of its interest to your Lordships, particularly to the noble Lord, Lord Forbes, who spent a long time dealing with the Red Deer Bill. It is encouraging to see the benefits which are being achieved by the right sort of scientific approach. Not the least result has been the arriving at a satisfactory balance between conflicting interests, and I think your Lordships' House did a good job, both immediately and ecologically, when we spent so long on the Red Deer Bill. It has even led some people in the Highlands to think that possibly Governments can occasionally do a useful job.
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Another matter with which the Nature Conservancy has been particularly concerned and which again illustrates the consequences of technological advance is the question of toxic chemicals. Your Lordships will recall that we debated this subject not very long ago, and perhaps partly as a result of that and of the general concern throughout the country the Government took certain action. Notwithstanding this, no fewer than seven-and-a-half pages of the Report are devoted to discussing problems of the use of toxic chemicals. I still think that we do not appreciate what a serious effect the indiscriminate use of certain types of seed dressing has had on wild life. There is now in existence a map of the distribution of the peregrine. From it one sees that in the South of England there are no pairs nesting at all; a little farther North they are trying to nest, but nothing much happens; then come more northerly areas, where they do nest but still with only relatively disappointing results, and only in the far North do the peregrines continue to nest in the way they did in the past. The importance of predatory birds in maintaining a satisfactory balance in nature is very great.
I was disappointed by the reaction of the Government, and particularly by the reaction of the noble Earl, Lord Waldegrave, to the Report of the Sanders Committee, which made a long list of the different types of research that were necessary. I should like to know from the noble Viscount who is to reply how many of the various proposals of the Sanders Committee, to some of which the Nature Conservancy Report refers, are being carried out in this field. I will not waste your Lordships' time by going through them, but it is clearly necessary to get on with them. The new research station of the Nature Conservancy at Monkswood, which will be concerned with this matter, is being held up, it is generally believed among those interested in this matter, as a consequence of the shortage of funds.
There are many other examples I could give of technological advances and their consequences. There is the possible damage that hovercraft may do, if they develop to a point when they go roaming freely over the countryside. There is the

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question of various types of electric grid. I think we ought to have more high-powered grids, of 400,000 volts, although the Russians have 700,000-volt grids. All these are matters which are of concern, not just to the supplier and the consumer, but also to the community as a whole.
I should like to ask the noble Viscount how many sites of scientific interest have actually been designated by the Nature Conservancy and how many have been lost because in fact there is no protection, not just against urban and industrial interests but also against agricultural interests. I do not seek to attack agriculturists, on whom we depend so much, but, as I have already sought to show, they may be some of the destroyers of our natural resources. This is a matter of great concern to the naturalists' trusts. It is a fact that, whereas urban or building development requires notification, draining, burning, ploughing, forestry or any of these things can be proceeded with over a site of scientific interest without notification. If my facts are wrong on this, perhaps the noble and learned Viscount will correct me. But it is a matter of great concern and there has been this loss.
Let me quote another example of the need for a more scientific approach. We have spent in this country something like £100,000 as a bounty on grey squirrels. Yet quite recently there was a Report, which I believe was written by the Chief Scientific Inspector of the Forestry Commission, and another one from the Ministry of Agriculture, suggesting that this £100,000 has achieved virtually nothing. It is possible that consultation with properly conducted research scientists might have saved this money. Indeed, it is arguable that this £100,000 might very much better have been given either to the universities or to the Nature Conservancy. This whole question of bounties is a dubious one, and the writers of the Report who were the people primarily concerned, said:
"A bounty on squirrels might be compared to building a sea wall six inches high round the entire coast of Britain …".
Here is an example of wastage of money which might have been prevented had we done more research. Now we may be doing the same thing with coypu, but I will not develop that further to-day.
LORD TAYLOR: My Lords, before my noble friend leaves this question of grey squirrels, may I recall that when we were last discussing this question it was suggested that if the tails were cut off they grew again? Is there any ground for this absolutely extraordinary suggestion? Can my noble friend say? Or perhaps the noble and learned Viscount will explain it, because the Government did not deny it when it was last suggested in the House.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, to tell the truth I did not think it was worth denying.
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, my noble friend is a better biologist than I am, so perhaps he can answer the question. There will be some who will complain that conservation is apt to mean restriction and it may have the effect of stopping people from getting on with the job. I would suggest that it may on occasion be a stimulus to greater resources, and I should like to give your Lordships an example which I hope is an accurate one. At the beginning of the 18th century Parliament was confronted by the exhaustion of the forests as a result of a demand for charcoal by the ironmasters, and a severe conservation policy introduced by the Government and Parliament of the day compelled a certain Abraham Darby to set up his ironworks in Shropshire. Deprived of his natural fuel of charcoal, he tried coal; and I am informed that this, in 1715, led to the foundation of the iron and steel industry as the direct result of the conservation policy of the day.
In our use of national resources we shall clearly have to think more fundamentally. We shall be confronted with all sorts of problems, especially when we go into the Common Market. We may find that the area of marginal land increases, and we shall have to decide on good advice how best to use it. It is interesting, looking at the Report, to see the detailed information which is coming up on the precise value of land, which will lead to a great deal more clarity than our present planners are able to achieve.
The truth is that the Nature Conservancy is spread too thinly. It is the subject of criticism on the ground that it

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tends to grab more than it can manage. It is understandable that it should, when it feels all the time that it has a race against time. But a few applied research stations are not enough. It is no more reasonable to suggest that the Nature Conservancy exists to run research stations than it would be to suggest that British Railways exist to run railway stations. I think we need a much more fundamental approach, not only in regard to water and toxic chemicals.
I should like to draw the attention of the noble and learned Viscount to the fact that it is believed by a number of people in this country, and particularly ecologists, that we are not helped by the rather blinkered approach of certain of our specialised scientists; that there are not enough people operating in this wide field; and that biochemistry, in a sense, becomes a soft option in the possibilities of the returns that will come from it in comparison with the difficult and unrewarding work, in short term, of the ecologists. The truth of the matter is that we are under-investigating. The consumer finances huge programmes of research for new technical advances in equipment and in chemicals, but there is no matching research to cover the public interest against the specialised interests. I do not blame the farmer or the chemical manufacturer. It must be for us to decide what is necessary in order to keep level with these advances, so that each advance does not bring with it a parallel step backwards. We need to get this across to the country.
It is probable that the Nature Conservancy, which tries hard enough, needs to improve its public relations; and for this it needs more money. Furthermore, it has to meet its obligations to the Department of Technical Co-operation. Here again, I should like to ask the noble and learned Viscount whether he thinks the Nature Conservancy has the resources to play the part in Africa that is so necessary. There is reason to believe (though here I would only hazard a guess) that some of the famine and floods in Africa may have been due in part to unsound policies and the lack of a proper conservation policy. An example of that has been the destruction of the Cloud Forest on the N'Gora-N'Gora crater, where at a height of 6,000 feet and above the forest has been
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destroyed, the vegetation has suffered, flash floods have been the result (and in due course there will possibly be erosion and drought) and it is going to be necessary in that particular area to re-afforest. It may be that the African, who has lived closer to nature, will have a more fundamental approach. I am told that at the Arusha Conference one African, so far from accepting the argument that Africans were likely to be less interested in nature, pointed out that they would have much more interest, and said, "Speaking for myself, I am an elephant because I am a member of the elephant tribe". We do not claim quite those animal associations. We hope that the Nature Conservancy can at least provide the advice necessary for the Department of Technical Co-operation.
We have created the minimal requirement in the Nature Conservancy. It is an amalgam of research and practical management, and they are developing a philosophy which I think we all need to understand. It is, of course, that our energy and our wealth come from the sun, and the reservoir is the soil; and from this comes plant life which we need to support ourselves. I hope that in this work the Nature Conservancy will continue to encourage, as they are doing, the admirable work of the voluntary bodies, like the county trusts. I have not time to refer to them, but certainly any debate of this kind must refer to these quite admirable institutions. I hope we shall get an encouraging reply from the noble Viscount, and I hope, above all, that we shall hear that money will be available for a further advance in a field which is of profound importance to our happiness and to our well-being in a country which is blessed but which still needs scientific guidance and scientific advice with regard to its natural resources. I beg to move for Papers.

NORTHERN RHODESIA CONSTITUTION
3.40 p.m.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, I rise, not to reply to the noble Lord's gracious and interesting speech, but to make the statement which was announced earlier in our proceedings. With the permission of the House, I will now repeat a statement on the Northern Rhodesia Constitution which

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has just been made by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for the Colonies in another place. Perhaps I may say that, should not speak audibly, I hope I may be pulled up; but I am suffering a little to-day and I hope I may be forgiven if I do not speak as audibly as usual. The statement is as follows:
"In September last my predecessor announced that once violence and disorder had ceased in. Northern Rhodesia Her Majesty's Government would be ready to consider, on the basis of the White Papers and his statement in the House on the 26th June, any representations within the area where divergencies of view on the Constitution still persisted. When the Governor reported to me that violence and disorder had ceased I called for such representations and I subsequently visited Northern Rhodesia and saw representatives of all the parties concerned.
"Not surprisingly there were widely differing views expressed. But many of the demands made fell outside the limits set by the September statement.
"Her Majesty's Government have reached the conclusion that some changes are required in the June proposals, but that these should not amount to reopening questions which, at the time, opinion in the territory appeared in general ready to accept. In particular Her Majesty's Government believe that the fundamental principle of the White Papers should be maintained, namely, that it should be open to any Party or Parties to obtain a majority if they can pass the necessary tests and that, in particular, in order to qualify for a National Seat, any candidate must obtain a stated minimum percentage of votes from both races.
"Her Majesty's Government have considered with particular care the aspect of the proposed Constitution which has caused the greatest controversy, namely, the numerical alternative of 400 votes. The effect of this is that while the degree of support that an African candidate would normally have to obtain from the European voters would have been 1 in 8, a European appealing to African
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voters, would only have needed around 1 in 25. Her Majesty's Government accept that this gives ground for legitimate complaint and that the purposes of the White Papers can best be achieved if candidates have to obtain the same minimum proportion of the votes of either race. They therefore propose to abolish the numerical alternative.
"Her Majesty's Government further feel that the qualification of 12½ per cent. is too high and they therefore propose to reduce it to 10 per cent.
"We do not propose to make any other changes.
"The necessary Orders-in-Council will be made and laid before the House as soon as possible. Is is the earnest hope of Her Majesty's Government that all parties in Northern Rhodesia will now co-operate in the new Constitution and fight the election when it comes on this basis."
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, I am much obliged to the noble and learned Viscount for making the statement here which has been made by the Secretary of State elsewhere. I am a little concerned about whether this is the exact and right occasion to express any detailed opinion upon the changes, because I have been going back over the documents and it seems to me still to require very careful working out as to how this particular statement will affect the proposals which have been made from time to time, in the White Paper and the statement of February, the White Paper of June and the statement that was made in September. It seems to me—I am hound to say this at once frankly—that the Government have made some improvement in one respect in regard to the position arrived at in the June White Paper, but at first glance—and I do not want to commit myself to this until we have had further study of all four documents, together with the statement to-day—it appears that the position arising out of it for the Africans as a whole will not be as favourable as was foreshadowed in the White Paper of February. We should rather like to have a further study of this matter before we express any more firm views than I am expressing now.

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On the other hand, I think it is vital, in the interests of the unity of the whole Commonwealth and of the future of the Central African Federation or of the individual units of the Central Federation, that some reasonably quick settlement, agreeable to all, should be made. These frequent occasions of rather dodging about from decision to decision give cause for a great deal of the anxieties and dissatisfactions which arise. Therefore, while I do not want to pass any severe criticism upon this statement until we have compared the mathematics of its electoral system with those in the previous statement, I am rather anxious to make sure that the Government will feel that they have gone far enough to come to a proper, fixed and stable situation.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, I sympathise with the noble Viscount in his difficulty about the mathematics of any situation connected with this Constitution. I think that is a difficulty we all share. I am grateful to him for the very kindly and responsible answer to the statement that has been made. I think the position of the Africans is not less favourable than was foreshadowed in February. Indeed, I should almost be prepared to argue that the various safeguards which have been introduced and reintroduced in June and February, really would not have altered the effect of an election very much had one been held under any of the proposals. There are, however, only two respects, I think, in which the position of the Africans differs. The addition of 500 Africans to the Upper Roll, which was conferred by the June Constitution, is still there; and, therefore, to that extent they are more favourably placed than in February. We have altered what I think was admittedly a mistake in the February arrangement: that is, that the arrangements for the preliminary qualification voting, if I may so call it, was by roll and not by race. It is now by race and not by roll. Those are the only two differences I can see. One is favourable to the Africans, and I should not have thought they could reasonably claim that the other was unfavourable.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, I am obliged to the noble Viscount, but I shall still require time to study it. I want to
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be quite sure that the general system which seemed inherent in the White Paper of February, that both races should be in a reasonable position to be able to obtain a majority, receives further study.
LORD REA: My Lords, may I add one remark? We have heard the opinions of the two major Parties. I should like to agree with the noble Viscount, the Leader of the Opposition, that this is not the time when we should enter into detailed debate. I think we are, nevertheless, all very glad to see that this thing has come to fruition at last, and that a little oil has been put an troubled waters. Of course, the seething and turmoil is not likely to subside immediately, but we wish the Government all good fortune in their advance in this way, and trust that they will make further advances as time goes on.
3.50 p.m.
THE EARL OF SWINTON: My Lords, I agree that this is not the time to debate this subject, but I should like just to clarify my own mind, and perhaps the minds of others, by asking two questions, because one has heard the statement now for the first time. As I understand it, the only change which has taken place from what we were told in June is that we now have 10 per cent. in place of the combination of 12½ per cent. plus 400. If that is so, then I must say that it seems to me a simplification Which is an advantage, particularly where an election has to be conducted by voters a number of whom will be voting for the first time and many of whom are inexperienced. It seems to me it will be an easier system for everybody to understand and to operate, and, incidentally, it follows the British system, where the first horse past the winning post wins, which we on this side and noble Lords on the other side have always accepted as a sensible way of doing business, the only exception being the Liberals, who would like a more complicated solution in the hope that they might ultimately reach Zion—here or hereafter.
My second question is this. As I understand it, this scheme preserves, as the other schemes have, that to be successful in a National Seat a candidate must obtain both European and African

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votes. If that is so, and I think it is clear that it is, then it preserves that essentially non-racial approach which I think all of us in this House have felt was so important and of which, indeed, Sir Roy Welensky has been a very strenuous, eloquent and wise supporter. That is how I understand it and, if that is so, then is it not true that that gives an opportunity and an encouragement to moderate men, whether they be black or white? If my understanding is correct, then I would agree with the Leader of the Opposition that this decision falls well within the narrow limits of the matters which were left over for further consideration, and I congratulate the Government on having refused to go outside this.
There was one matter which I think was implicit in what the noble Viscount the Leader of the House has said. I take it that the Asian-Coloured Seat stands, that the National Seats are 14 and that there is one seat left over. That was a new proposition to us, but I must say that the more I think about it the more attracted I am, and I hope that that will stand. I share the views expressed by the Leaders of both Parties opposite that we are glad that this matter has come to an end, or, at any rate, that a solution has been found, and I add only this: that I think there is an additional benefit because this solution, which deals only with the Northern Rhodesian Constitution, gives time for the wider issues of the Federal Constitution to be considered in all their aspects. Rush decisions are seldom right, and anywhere—and perhaps more in Africa than anywhere else—time and the experience that time brings are of inestimable value.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, I would thank my noble friend for his intervention, which I think will serve to clarify the issue and which also contains the fruits of his wisdom and experience. My noble friend is correct in both his understandings of my original statement. He is correct in thinking that the only change from the June proposals is the substitution of 10 per cent. for 12½ per cent. and the abolition of the numerical alternative of 400. It follows from that that he would be right in drawing a corollary that the Asian Seat still stands, and it is certainly true that our intention
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and understanding of the effect of all three sets of proposals, including this, is that it should be possible for moderate men of either race to secure election under them, and there is no reason at all why they should not do so. We do not, of course, wish to be able to tell in advance who will, and I am grateful for the warning my noble friend gave us in his last sentence.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, I do not like to be drawn into another statement and I have no objection to what the noble Earl has said, but I still think that this statement to-day wants further study with the other documents, because I am under the impression that it does not yet give as much as was foreshadowed in the White Paper of February. I hope we shall leave it at that.
LORD SILKIN: My Lords, can the noble and learned Viscount tell us what consultation there has been with different sections of opinion in Northern Rhodesia on this revision? And is he able to give us some idea of the reactions to these changed proposals?
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, I do not think I could, without notice. The noble Lord will no doubt have known that my right honourable friend spent some time in Northern Rhodesia—indeed I think he referred to it in his statement—and no doubt that time was spent in consultation; but without notice I should not like to give a reply. Obviously these proposals have only just been made known to everybody, and in these circumstances I cannot say what the reactions of the various Parties are to them.

THE NATURE CONSERVANCY
3.58 p.m.
Debate resumed.
LORD FORBES: My Lords, we now return to the conservation of nature and I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, for introducing this Motion on nature conservancy. I myself speak with considerable difficulty because I am a member of the Scottish Committee of the Nature Conservancy, so it is not for me to pass judgment on the work of the Nature Conservancy;

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that is something I will have to leave for other noble Lords who follow. Nor am I going to get involved with the work of the Red Deer Commission, because I still remember far too vividly the 72 Amendments put down by your Lordships on the Bill. I just wish to made one point, which has already been touched on by the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, which concerns the Nature Conservancy's relations with the public. I believe that if the Nature Conservancy is to criticise itself it would be over keeping the public fully aware of the Nature Conservancy's rôle under the Charter, and, secondly, of how it is discharging its duties in that rôle.
My Lords, there can be no doubt that if the Nature Conservancy can obtain the co-operation of the public its task will be very greatly simplified, because conservation is not just the work of botanists, zoologists, scientists and others, but is something that requires the co-operation of the public. To-day probably very few understand the work of aeronauts and astronauts, and it is probably quite true to say that a good many do not understand the work of the Nature Conservancy. I believe some people regard the Nature Conservancy as a lot of people who go about armed with powerful binoculars, crawling on their stomachs or permanently bent double examining plants through powerful magnifying glasses. The Nature Conservancy tries to live down this reputation—or perhaps one should say, this misconception. The Nature Conservancy thinks that the best way of educating the public and getting their co-operation is for its staff to go to give talks at educational establishments, schools, universities and societies who are interested in nature. This policy will doubtless reap rewards in future years, but to-day we want cooperation also from the older people who have not so recently been to educational establishments.
There is, I think, still considerable misunderstanding concerning the duties of the Nature Conservancy. The Charter lays down first that the Nature Conservancy shall provide scientific advice on conservation and control of natural flora and fauna; secondly, establish and maintain nature reserves; and, thirdly, carry out research in connection with the
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conservation of natural flora and fauna. There are some people who think the Nature Conservancy wants to take under its wing every area abounding with birds, animals and flowers so that nothing will be left to the collectors. That is not the case. The nature reserves have been set up by the Nature Conservancy to preserve or carry out research on certain flora and fauna. The total acreage of nature reserves does not amount to more than a fraction of the land surface of these islands.
Of course there are one or two exceptional cases, such as where the Nature Conservancy has reserved the only area where a certain species can be found. This is only because of the rarity of that species and the very necessity to preserve it for the future. The problem confronting the Nature Conservancy is how to reconcile the use of part of our national heritage by the present generation with the need to safeguard its irreplaceable features for future generations. Here I should like to say that where the Nature Conservancy has entered into agreements with land owners it very soon gets full co-operation from those land owners.
There is another misconception which arises from time to time. Some people think that the Nature Conservancy should preserve scenic amenity and provide recreational facilities for the public. This is something that does not come under the Nature Conservancy's Charter. However, it is something that the Nature Conservancy keeps very much in mind, and at present in Scotland the Nature Conservancy is planning a roadside reception area for caravanners and campers at Beinn Eighe in Wester Ross, and in doing this the Nature Conservancy is going to employ a landscape architect. When the project is finished it is hoped that the whole project will be an example to other authorities. The Nature Conservancy, as I see it, have to get across to the public, first of all, the need for conservation and, secondly, how the Nature Conservancy proposes to discharge its responsibilities.
I think the story of one Jim Watt, who was an employee of the Hudson's Bay Company in the 'thirties, illustrates what nature conservancy means and the importance of the co-operation of the public. In the 'thirties the beaver around

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James Bay and Hudson's Bay were becoming practically extinct and this employee of the Hudson's Bay Company, Jim Watt, managed to persuade the Indians that if they were going to survive they must conserve the beaver; he explained to them that beaver breed rapidly and if they would kill only a very small percentage of those beaver for two years then they might have beaver in abundance. He got the co-operation of the Indians and in two years' time there was no fear of there being no more beaver pelts for the Indians to trade or no more flesh for the Indians to eat.
The Nature Conservancy faces a gigantic task of passing on to the public the idea of conservation of flora and fauna because it is something that is relatively new to this country. One might think that the problem will increase as the nation becomes more urbanised. On the other hand, there are some, like myself, who believe that once the interest of the townspeople has been aroused those townspeople often become as enthusiastic about nature as the countrymen themselves. Finally, just let me say this. By conserving nature we are preserving in balance something given to us as part of our heritage, something which once lost cannot be retrieved. Surely this is a worth while job that merits the sympathetic co-operation of everyone in this country.
4.6 p.m.
LORD WILMOT OF SELMESTON: My Lords, I should like to say just one or two words about this most interesting Report, upon which I am sure we should all wish to congratulate those responsible. It contains a wealth of information and many signals of hope and cheerfulness in a subject which at one time gave rise to great despair. I would suggest one small improvement in form, and that is the addition of a general index which would enable this book to be taken down from one's shelves and referred to very quickly when required, which is pretty often if one gets interested in this fascinating subject.
I was particularly interested to hear the noble Lord, Lord Forbes, refer to the proposed camping site. This seems to me a splendid innovation, not only because of its value as a camping site
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and, perhaps, the prevention of still further ruin of parts of our native country, but also because, as he rightly says, it will be a good influence in directing the attention and interest of town-dwellers to the part they can play in the preservation of one of the most beautiful countries in the world. Many people, it seems to me, do not spend enough time thinking about the rich nature of our heritage in this island. I remember Sir Winston Churchill saying once, in the gloomy days in 1940, when talking of France, that for its size it was the fairest tract of the earth's surface. I believe that that is true of Britain, too; and anything we can do to preserve the wild life and the natural beauty of Great Britain we must not neglect to do. I think it is very sad that at this time, when this work is so important and the recognition of it is getting wider, the Government have found it necessary to cut the grant. I would urge most strongly that the cut be restored and that the grant be increased, because there is an enormous amount of work to be done which the Conservancy has shown itself well able to do; and the limiting factor, of course, is lack of funds and of staff.
I should like to refer to one matter that was raised in the debate in this House, I think it was in April last year, on the question of the effects of toxic manures and seed dressings and weed-killers, upon which the Nature Conservancy has done some valuable work and stimulated much inquiry. I still think that there is a great deal more to he done. The secondary, tertiary and continuing chain of effects from the introduction of poisons on the land, either for killing weeds or as alleged fertilisers, can be continued far into the future. We have yet to discover the full facts about the effects of cattle feeding-stuffs raised on soils dressed with chemically dressed seeds and on soils dressed with chemical fertilisers. I have friends who believe, from their own experiences, that the effect on the milk of cows fed upon cake and other feeding-stuffs raised on soils which are, in their view, contaminated by the use of chemical seed dressings and fertilisers is most alarming. They believe that the effect on the soil continues for a long time, that it continues through the life of the beasts which eat the fodder, and that

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it passes into the milk and is passed on in this way to human agencies. This may be a matter more concerning other people—
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, I think I can say straight away that I know of no responsible scientist who would agree that the use of fertilisers was deleterious to the composition of milk.
LORD WILMOT OF SELMESTON: My Lords, the noble Viscount knows so much more about this matter than I do that I certainly should not contradict him. But the word "responsible", when applied to scientists, varies from time to time in its application; quite irresponsible people become responsible as the years go by. My friends are not scientists, they are agricultural people. I have no view except to say that that is what they believe.
There are people who take the view that chemical fertilisers play a part in soil erosion, and so on. Whether they are right or not I do not know, but I believe that there is a good deal more research to be done on the effect of the use of toxic substances in various agricultural methods. I hope that this work will go on, and I should make it clear that I am not pre-judging this matter in any sense. There is also referred to in this Report the practice of spraying roadside verges with toxic substances. I suppose as weed-killers. I believe that this practice is having most disastrous effect upon the natural flora and fauna, and I hope that investigation into it will continue.
Finally, I do not think there is in the Report—perhaps I have missed it—any reference to the possible effects of effluent from the atomic power stations. We are constructing a number of coastal atomic power stations. The effect of their effluent into the sea may be good or bad—I do not know. But that it will make a difference I think there is little doubt. I hope that the Conservancy and the Government will continue studies on this matter. I am told that in some cases the water has been warmed, that fish have been encouraged and that fishing is expected to improve. That may he so. As to the quality of the fish, I do not know. However, this Report displays the value of this work, which
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needs our encouragement and will do nothing but good, and I believe that future generations will have cause to thank us.
4.16 p.m.
VISCOUNT MASSEREENE AND FERRARD: My Lords, I should first of all like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, for putting down this Motion, and also for his extremely good speech on what I can only describe as a very good Report. I was rather surprised to hear my noble friend Lord Forbes say, as I understood him, that conservation was quite a new idea. It is quite true that the Nature Conservancy is a new organisation; but we have had conservation in the country of indigenous flora and fauna and of the landscape for a long time. The big landowners have previously been responsible for this conservation. Of course, now that a great number of estates have been broken up, the Nature Conservancy and other bodies, such as the National Trust, have to step into the breach.
As one or two speakers have mentioned, one of the most disturbing elements of our modern civilisation is that we are getting further and further from nature. Especially is this so in the British Isles, which on the whole is an urbanised country, to say the least. The average person in this country has, I am afraid, only the vaguest notion of the various processes of nature which enable him to exist. We are all products of nature, though a great number of us appear to forget that idea. I would suggest that the first task of the Conservancy should be to try to educate people to realise that they are part of nature and that, for their own survival, they must conserve and understand the earth and life sciences with which we are surrounded.
As the Report says, without education only inadequate advances in conservation are possible. To-day, with broadcasting and television we have a great opportunity for mass education in the ways of the countryside and the flora and fauna that inhabit it. I realise that the Conservancy arranges lectures and exhibitions. It also has libraries. But these organisations reach only the small percentage of people who, on the whole, are educated and interested in the

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country. I have frequently had occasion to speak to hikers, campers and picnic parties, and I have been astounded by the great ignorance of the most elementary facts of the countryside that is often to he found among these people. Generally they are extremely well-meaning; occasionally, one finds vicious ones, but they are in the minority.
Only last summer I saw a large party of people spread all over a clover and ryegrass field that I was just going to have mown for hay. There was a large party of children, and I suppose about half a dozen adults. I went up to the apparent head of this party, a middle-aged lady, and said to her, "Excuse me, madam, do you mind having your party in the adjoining field, where you will do no damage?" She said to me—it is fantastic but it is true—"Young man,"—which, in the first place, was rather a misnomer—"God put this field here; I have as much right to it as you do." I said, "But, madam, if you had found this field as God put it here, to start with you probably would not have any clothes on—it would be completely thorn scrub, and in order to reach this spot you would have had your clothes torn off; and, if you could have reached this spot, you would now be extremely uncomfortable because you would be sitting on some very nasty thistles." You see, my Lords, although this good lady was perfectly well-meaning, she was just ignorant of the laws of the countryside.
I could have gone on to explain to her that, indirectly, she was really harming herself, because by destroying this crop she was harming the production of meat, milk, and leather for her shoes. The point I am trying to make is that the Conservancy must try, through television and broadcasting, to educate the public that it is in their own interest that the countryside should be taken care of and respected by everyone.
My Lords, I am afraid I have rather wandered, but if I may just turn to the Report for a moment, I should like to follow the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, and say a little about the island of Rhum. The Conservancy bought the island in 1957, and I can remember what rejoicing there was in certain quarters, what a wonderful thing it was, that this beautiful
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island had been bought for the people of this country. But, my Lords, as so often happens with land that is bought for the people by the State, the first thing that occurs is that up go the "Prohibited" notices. I do not want to make a Party point of this, but the Conservancy can exist only if it has public sympathy. I have heard rumours of discontent, that the public are not welcome in places like Rhum and other areas in the Highlands which have been bought by the Conservancy. I quite agree with the Conservancy that if a place is to be made a nature reserve the public cannot be permitted to stray all over it. But, here again, this matter must be explained to the public, otherwise there is bound to be feeling.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, I think I must tell my noble friend that the island of Rhum is far more open to the public under the ownership of the Nature Conservancy than it ever was under private ownership—indeed, far more so than his own hayfield was!
VISCOUNT MASSEREENE AND FERRARD: Perhaps the noble and learned Viscount is right about my hayfield; but in the Highlands, as the noble and learned Viscount knows only too well, under the Access to Mountains Act the whole of the Highlands in private hands are open to any member of the public to hike or camp on. But, of course, the Conservancy cannot allow this—and I am not objecting to the Conservancy's attitude: I am completely for it, as I think it highly desirable, if you are going to have a nature reserve, to make sure that it is secluded. But the danger, as I have said, is that the public may think that these reserves are to be kept as exclusive sanctuaries for favoured civil servants. I know this is a completely wrong idea, but it is possible that that idea could get around.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, it was precisely that reason which led me to interrupt my noble friend, because it would be a false idea if it got around in relation to the Island of Rhum.
VISCOUNT MASSEREENE AND FERRARD: My Lords, if I might stay on the Island of Rhum for a little while longer, I would point out that if your Lordships turn to page 14 you will see that the Conservancy have turned off all

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the sheep and cattle. The reason for so doing, according to the Report, is that the quality of the grazing had diminished under the joint grazing of the deer and the sheep. The result of turning off the sheep has been that the production of meat for human consumption, as the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, pointed out, has in fact increased. The average venison production has been 22,950 lb., as against 20,000-odd lb. from the production of sheep and cattle. Several landowners in the Highlands, myself included, have several times told the Board of Agriculture for Scotland that in certain areas of the Highlands it is far more economic to encourage the indigenous fauna, like the red deer, than to graze sheep. I myself have been forced to put sheep on land a great deal of which has been unsuitable, with dire consequences. If you get a bad winter, half of your stock can die.
So I am really interested in this experiment, which is also being tried out in Africa—I think in parts of Rhodesia—where the authorities have decided that it is really more economic to encourage the production of local antelopes for meat than to have cattle. But if I, as a private landowner, wanted to clear any ground of sheep and to encourage the deer, I should instantly be abused and told that I was despoiling the country for sport, driving people off the land, and all that nonsense.
LORD FORBES: My Lords, I must apologise for interrupting the noble Viscount, but I think he must realise that the Nature Conservancy took over this area with one specific object in mind, and that was to carry out research on the red deer.
VISCOUNT MASSEREENE AND FERRARD: My Lords, that is true, of course, but there are plenty of landowners who have carried out private research on the red deer. As if they had discovered something quite astounding, the Conservancy say on the first page:
"the island of Rhum is now yielding … a substantial amount of meat (in the form of venison) ready for human consumption."
It seems a very strange remark for them to have made, because it is a foregone conclusion, and venison has always been fit for human consumption.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, I think the noble Viscount is misrepresent-
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ing what the Report said. What the Report said was that, after the culling programme of the very carefully managed type which they carried out, the weight of venison increased and, in fact, was more than that of the sheep plus the venison under previous management. That was indeed the object of the discovery, and although it may be extremely naïve to have made it, it is worth while saying that nobody had made it before.
VISCOUNT MASSEREENE AND FERRARD: My Lords, perhaps we should keep off the island of Rhum. Is it possible, I wonder, to return to this theme of educating the public in the great heritage that they have in our countryside? Is it possible for the Conservancy really to indulge in a campaign; for instance, by making, films for television to show mankind's great dependence on nature? You can easily show a pretty film of a bird laying its eggs, but that does not really convey anything to the public. What we want to show them is their dependence on those birds and animals and how the land generally is treated. That is the point I am trying to make.
A good deal has been said in this debate about toxic chemicals and I do not propose to delve into that subject very fully. People in the country have the evidence of their own eyes. I myself farm, and I am quite convinced that, for instance, the number of song birds in my part of the country is far smaller than it used to be. We have had the Sanders Report, and the Government warned the farmers and the trade about these toxic chemicals in the autumn of 1960. But in the 1961 sowing season the damage was really worse. I have seen the damage and apparently the warning had no result. These dressings—aldrin, dieldrin and heptachlor—have been banned for spring sowing, which is a very good step in the right direction. But I beg the Government to take a firm stand in this matter, and to be quite ruthless with vested interests. If these sprays and seed dressings are not checked, they will upset the whole balance of nature and have dire consequences for future generations in this country.
Even apart from seed dressings and chemicals generally, orchard growers

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come along and spray the trees to kill the insects which they think will harm their fruit. Then, of course, the birds have no insects to eat, because the sprays have killed them all. The fruit growers then say: "We must kill the birds", and so we go on and it becomes a continuous policy of destruction. In the end you will have only human beings left in the world—which, in my opinion, will make it an extremely dull world. So I ask the Government to take a firm line on this matter.
I should like to repeat only these two points. First, I think it is the most important part of the Conservancy's task that the public should be educated regarding the countryside, because we do not want to put the cart before the horse by having all these reserves from which the public will think they are excluded only through officialdom. That will cause only ill-feeling. The other thing I wish to say, as other noble Lords have said, is: for heaven's sake! take a strong line on these toxic sprays and chemicals, because they are a real danger, as anyone in the country fully knows.
4.40 p.m.
LORD RAGLAN: My Lords, some years ago there was brought before the Bench of which I was Chairman a gentleman who was charged with uprooting a primrose from the roadside verge. We were satisfied that an offence had been committed, and we imposed a small fine. My Lords, there are now no primroses on that roadside verge: the local authority has killed them all. What I should be very interested to hear from the noble and learned Viscount is how it comes about that it is an offence to remove one primrose from a roadside verge but no offence to kill all the primroses on a roadside verge.
4.41 p.m.
THE EARL OF HADDINGTON: My Lords, I rise to commend the work of the Nature Conservancy, and we are indebted to the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, for keeping this matter in the forefront of our attention from time to time. Like my noble friend Lord Forbes, I believe that we are all truly lovers of nature, whether we are town-bred or country-bred. I believe, too, that, physically and mentally, it is only
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nature in its purest form, its wildest form, that really satisfies us. But the tragedy is that this modern age is driving nature further and further away from us, as populations spread over the land.
I do not think there is anything we can do about this. I suppose that industry has brought many benefits to our country, but I am afraid I must take the view that this is one of the tragedies that it has brought as well. That is why the work of the Nature Conservancy is of the most vital importance, and becomes increasingly so each year. I think we owe the Conservancy a great deal. We owe a particular debt, if I may say so, to the noble Lord, Lord Hurcomb, who has been its Chairman for so many years. I do not think any-one quite appreciates what he has done. In looking through the Appendix I find that he is a member of seven of the ten committees appointed by the Nature Conservancy. That must take up a great deal of his time. I am sure that we all appreciate very much the work that he has done. It must surely be a record.
I am mainly concerned, of course, with the work in Scotland, and I particularly want to commend the work of the Scottish Committee. The only other Scottish Member of your Lordships' House who is down to speak in this debate (I beg the noble Viscount's pardon; shall I say the only other representative Peer speaking?), apart from myself, is my noble friend Lord Forbes, who is, of course, a member of the Scottish Committee. He is far too modest to commend himself, but I think that this Committee has done an extremely good job. Scotland, of course, is largely responsible for the greatly increased acreage which we read has been taken over for nature reserves during the past year. This, of course, is no disparagement of England: it is very much easier to acquire land for these purposes in Scotland, as I think the Report makes quite clear. The land is held in fewer hands, and there is not the same competition for land use in the less populated parts of Scotland as there is in England, which of course makes negotiations proceed faster.
A great wealth of fauna and flora exists in Scotland, but in that very wealth lies danger, because the country is opening up very rapidly to tourism. That

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may well be for the benefit of Scotland, but I cannot believe that it is going to be for the benefit of the wild life of the country. What may happen is that soon the most remote places—places which may be the last refuge of nature; one might call them "nature's last stand"—will be available to everybody. It is for this reason that it is imperative that adequate control, protection and conservation be brought to bear before it is too late.
My Lords, I have merely mentioned that point. It is very obvious, but I do not think it can be said too often. I think, for example, that if many of our rarer species of wildfowl are to survive there must be some sort of control over every loch, bay or river estuary—in fact, any place where wildfowl flight or which they inhabit. I know that these rare birds are protected under the First Schedule to the Protection of Birds Act, 1954, which we passed through your Lordships' House, but I do not think that is enough. I think they require more protection. If permits for one area are limited, as has been done on the East Coast of Scotland, in Aberlady Bay, what happens is that all the people who cannot get permits to shoot there pass on to the next estuary; and they crowd in there and frighten all these birds away. They will go where they can shoot.
We do not want to deprive the genuine wildfowler of his sport—I think that has been said more than once in this House. The genuine wildfowler probably belongs to a wildfowlers' association. He is entitled to his sport; we admire him for lying out all night, in a cold wind, to get his brace of duck for the pot. He is usually a member of one of the wild-fowlers' associations, which have a strict code of rules. So far as I know, the association which shoots around my area adheres fairly strictly to those rules. I may be wrong in this, and the noble and learned Viscount will put me right if I am, but I believe that only 10s. is required to purchase a firearms certificate.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: A gun licence.
THE EARL OF HADDINGTON: But that includes a licence to buy an air gun, a 22 rifle—
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: No.
THE EARL OF HADDINGTON: Anyway, my Lords, what does happen is this: that everybody who can legally get hold of any sort of firearm comes out just for a jolly afternoon. I have known as many as 70 young men—they have been counted—all in a narrow river mouth area, shooting away at anything they can see, just for the fun of it. That is not going to help our wildfowl to come in. I read in Country Life that representations have been made to the Home Secretary about this problem. It is mainly a firearms matter, and therefore rather outside this debate. The National Farmers' Union put the matter in this way, and refer to
"the ease with which youths go marauding about the countryside shooting at any convenient target, live or dead, and appearing contemptuous of those who seek to restrain them".
Anyway, they are a positive danger to one another.
I am glad to notice that a warden system is advocated in this Report, though I see difficulties in putting such a system into practice. If voluntary wardens could be found, and if they could be given the same authority as the police, that would go a long way towards improving the position. But Parliament has always been rather reluctant to give the power of arrest to people other than members of the police. I know that in poaching Bills and litter Bills we have tried to get these voluntary wardens introduced, but I think some reason has always been found against it.
May I say just one more word? Wild flora have been mentioned. Much of our wild flora used to thrive in hedgerows or in the open glens of our old woodlands, but it is now farming fashion to pull out all the hedges for convenience, and, of course, the heavy shade of closely-planted conifers prevents any vegetation from growing underneath. It is seven years since I had the honour to sit on a Committee, called the Committee on Hedgerow and Farm Timber, under the chairmanship of the noble Lord, Lord Merthyr. One of the findings of that Committee was that:
"The wild flowers of Britain, like those of other countries, have their distinctive charm and character, and perhaps more than anything they teach us to appreciate the beauty of nature. Their common habitat is the hedgerow, and if, owing to modern farming methods

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the traditional hedge is to disappear, much of our heritage of wild flora will disappear with it. We think that the consequent loss to botanists, schools, rambling clubs and lovers of the countryside would be a calamity."
To what extent the recommendations implied in that extract have been carried out, I do not know; but I fear, from looking round the countryside, not to a very great extent.
However, I came to commend the work of the Conservancy, not to criticise it. I believe that there is very little to criticise, and a great deal to commend. The research work done by the Conservancy particularly into soil degeneration up in the Highlands, which makes a good pointer to the use of land, is a very important example of their activities. Their close liaison with the Red Deer Commission has already been mentioned. These are only two aspects of their work; and there are many others. There are 28 nature reserves in Scotland, 23 of which, I understand, now have management plans. I hope that before long there will be many more, for this, to me, seems undoubtedly the best, in fact the only, way nowadays of preserving our wild life from all that threatens it.
4.53 p.m.
LORD METHUEN: My Lords, I really did not intend to come here except as a listener and observer, but I notice in the Report a reference to Central Africa. Having just come back from Southern Rhodesia and Mozambique, I thought it might be interesting to introduce into this debate something that one could not help observing. First, I should like to say that various noble Lords have emphasised the degeneration of our flora and fauna in this country, and one of the serious aspects of it is the almost indiscriminate use of toxic chemical and weed killers. I remember soon after the last war driving along in the evening and seeing countless hosts of moths in front of the windscreen of my car. To-day, we hardly see one. I have not seen any for about ten years, I should think, which speaks for itself. I can think of nothing but the toxic weed killers which are doing this damage, for it must be admitted that it is damage.
The Report mentions on page 67 the excellent work done by the International
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Union for Conservation of Nature and Natural Resources, particularly in Central Africa. One of the things which struck me very much in travelling as much as 5,000 miles in three months, on a busman's holiday of painting and collecting for Kew, was the nearly complete absence of mammalian life in the sense that there were hardly any buck. I think I saw only four buck the whole time, until, of course, we went into the nature reserves. We visited the one in Nairobi, where the lions were so tame that they were encircled by people with cameras photographing them. They were too lazy to get up and say "Good morning" to us! It was the same thing with the Gorongoza Game Reserve. The only thing we really had to be careful about were the elephants; the lions again were so tame that they did not take any notice of one at all. I felt like getting out of my car, but of course one is not allowed to.
I have mentioned this, because I had a talk with a very intelligent man, a Portuguese, who looked after the camp there, and I pointed out to him that to have the game preserved in a Game Reserve is not enough. It is necessary to have an ecological, overall view of the whole thing, to see the plants in relation to the animals, and the animals in relation to the plants. That had not struck him at all. He said, "Well, you complain about our bush fires, but we keep the trees which withstand the fires". I said, "That is all very well, but you never see a sapling. Take the fever trees. There are plenty of old fever trees about, and some young ones, but not a single sapling. If you go on having bush fires year after year as you do, you will soon have nothing but a plain." But he would not agree. At least I hope I have sown the seeds of a game reserve with the ecological aspect as important as the game themselves. I was very glad to see in this Report that the ecological side is emphasised very much indeed, and it is a very good thing. One is apt to lose sight of it. I hope that both in Central Africa and Southern Rhodesia, and also in Mozambique the authorities will eventually see the importance of that.
I should like to say how very much indebted we are to the noble Lord, Lord Hurcomb, for the excellent work he has

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done. I should also like to quote very shortly from this excellent Report about the meeting which I referred to, of the I.U.C.N. last year. The Report says:
"It was justly described as the most important gathering of conservationists and ecologists ever held in Africa, and was notable for the agreement attained over a wide range of problems, for the excellent harmony prevailing between scientists, administrators and political leaders from African states of the most diverse kinds extending from the Union to the Sudan, Liberia, and Senegal, and for the positive acceptance by African spokesmen of the obligation of trusteeship for wild life and natural resources."
That is a very important matter, because if you really want to get to know something about the fauna and flora of a country you should go to the African. He knows far more about them than anybody else. Although I know he is accused of trapping and exterminating some of the fauna, he does know about it; and I have not the slightest doubt that, given the right education, he could be one of our best co-operators. My Lords, I have nothing more to say except that this discussion has been extremely interesting, and I think we have all learned a great deal from it.
4.58 p.m.
LORD WALSTON: My Lords, I should like to start by echoing the sentiments of my noble friend Lord Shackleton in saying how pleased we are to see the noble and learned Viscount restored, at any rate to the outward eye, to his usual rude health. I do not know whether the sudden cure has been wrought by the innate strength of his nature, or whether, as Minister for Science, he has had to fall back on toxic or other chemicals to do it. At any rate, I hope that his appearance here to-day has not undone the good that has been done on previous days. I should also like personally to thank my noble friend for initiating this debate, which I am sure has been a useful one and to me has been a very interesting one. I must confess that, until this subject was put down for debate to-day, it was something in which I had a general and very amateurish interest, but not something about which I knew a great deal. I cannot pretend that I do now, though my knowledge has certainly been increased by listening to various noble Lords who have spoken.
It seems to me that the activities of
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the Nature Conservancy fall into three separate departments. First of all, there is what one might call the antiquarian activities; in other words, those which are concerned with preserving natural growths which are not of general interest but which are of interest to specialists, in exactly the same way as we have recently decided that the Temple of Mithras in the middle of the City should be preserved (though to my mind it is not a thing of any great beauty) because it is clearly unthinkable that a building of such great antiquity should be swept away in the march of progress and that posterity should never have a chance of seeing what it was like. Similarly, many things on these Islands which might well disappear if nature were allowed to have her way should be preserved for the specialist, for the scientist.
If your Lordships read through the Report, you will find that special steps are taken to preserve the osprey—I am sure an admirable form of bird, but one which does not appeal for any particular reason to many people; at Askham Bog, in Yorkshire, the semi-equatic weavil, which is known to your Lordships as Ephimeropus petro; at Penmoelallt, in Breconshire, the sorbus leyana, which your Lordships will undoubtedly recognise as the whitebeam, and at Morfa Harlech, in Merionethshire, the odontoscelis fuliginosa—I will not bother to translate to your Lordships what these are in ordinary language. All these are well worth preserving and it is right that we should have an organisation to deal with this subject.
But that is only one side of the activities of the Conservancy. The second one can be put in general terms under the heading of amenities. I know that the National Parks are primarily responsible for these, but there are many places which are not necessarily National Parks and which should be preserved, not in their original natural form but in their present form, as areas where people can enjoy nature, not in the raw but in a semi-controlled state. The New Forest and Epping Forest and places of that kind are all very desirable and we should preserve them as they are to-day. This necessitates doing a certain amount of work. We find that the Conservancy increases its good will among the public

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by spreading a love of the countryside among the uninitiated, the non-scientists, the non-country dwellers, and giving them an opportunity to see the countryside in certain attractive but not necessarily productive or economic aspects.
Whether the Island of Rhum, about which the noble Viscount, Lord Massereene and Ferrard, spoke, should come into this category or not I do not know, but I should like to bear out what the noble and learned Viscount said: that in the old days under private ownership it was impossible to set foot on the Island of Rhum. I well remember, many years ago, when I was more irresponsible than I am now, being on an island close to Rhum in company with another noble Lord who usually sits on the opposite Benches, making plans for a poaching expedition to Rhum, to see whether we could come back with a stag. Unfortunately, the plans came to nothing, but I remember that it certainly was a place prohibited to all visitors. Now, even if certain areas of the island are restricted, it is at least something gained if people are allowed to set foot on the island and see a bit of it.
VISCOUNT MASSEREENE AND FERRARD: My Lords, anyone could land on Rhum if he had a boat or was a sufficiently strong swimmer. Surely it is the law that you cannot be kept off Rhum.
LORD WALSTON: I think that the noble and learned Viscount who is going to reply is far more capable of dealing with that question when the time comes. On the matter of the controversy about deer versus sheep, which the noble Viscount raised, I would say that at some periods perhaps abuse might have been thrown at his head if he removed sheep from his land and encouraged stags and stalking, but I am not at all sure that he would not earn a debt of gratitude, and possibly even an O.B.E., from his noble friend Lord Waldegrave by reducing the number of sheep that are produced and thereby reducing the Supplementary Estimates which always cause so much embarrassment.
I turn to the third activity of the Conservancy, which is one which in general one can call the economic side. This has been dealt with extremely adequately
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by my noble friend Lord Shackleton and I do not want to go over any of the ground he has already trodden so thoroughly, but I do not think it can be stated too often, particularly in view of some of the speeches to which we have listened this afternoon, that the whole of cultivation, of agriculture, of food production, disturbs the balance of nature. That is something which we should not fight against. It is good and right. As the noble Viscount, Lord Massereene and Ferrard, rightly said, his field of rye grass and clover is a complete disturbance of nature, but it is very right that he should treat his land in that way.
It is perfectly true that to-day we are disturbing nature possibly more than we have done in the past, though I am not sure that I can see a great deal of difference between controlling weeds with a mattock or plough and controlling them with chemicals of one kind or another. The weeds are killed, and that is the point of it. Some ways are more selective or less selective, but the principle is the same. But what we see to-day is a faster growth in the methods of disseminating knowledge, because of the increased education of people engaged in agriculture. New techniques and methods, when they appear, spread far more rapidly throughout the whole countryside, and if they do damage, the damage can be spread over wide areas before anybody notices it, much more than took place in the days when education in new techniques was not so great. That is the problem that must be watched. I have spoken about it on other occasions in your Lordships' House and make no apology for repeating it again. I am glad to see that the Conservancy and the other bodies and departments concerned are making far greater and much faster progress with this subject than they have done up to the present time.
I would suggest, in order to help with that work and the other activities with which the Conservancy are concerned, that there should be even greater co-operation and co-ordination than there is to-day between the Conservancy and other research institutions—the Agricultural Research Council, the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research, the Medical Research

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Council, the universities and the rest of the places that are interested, however remotely, in these problems. I know, and I am very glad it is so, that there are distinguished scientists representing all these bodies on the Conservancy, but co-operation must not be only at high levels; it must go all the way down, so that the lowest and most junior research workers have a chance of getting together with their opposite numbers in different places, working in different faculties of universities, and of hearing by personal contact and even by after-dinner gossip what is going on, what new lines are being evolved and what new forms of research are being contemplated. I believe that the Agricultural Research Council have a system of occasional parties in order to bring people together to do this sort of thing, and if the Nature Conservancy, through its different activities at Monks Wood and elsewhere, could do this it would be of great help, and particularly to the people actually doing the work.
There is a further point here where I should like to see more work done by the Nature Conservancy, and that is in catching up on past gaps in our knowledge and past omissions. We are sadly lacking in all sorts of basic groundwork information about wild life. As an example, last year we had a widespread complaint about birds that were being picked up dead. But we did not know how many birds were being picked up dead, over what area and at what periods. In my own case, I remember that I came back from abroad towards the end of March and was met with sad stories of the widespread desolation of partridges and pheasants. I asked the keeper how many he had picked up on the day he came to tell me about it, and on that day he had not picked up any. I asked him about the day before, and the number was one. He could not remember the number for the day before that—but he knew there was an enormous number of birds dying. I still do not know how many birds died; but I do know that in this past shooting season, in my own case, we have seen and shot more pheasants and partridges than we have done for the past 30 or 40 years.
I am not saying that in order to suggest to your Lordships that this whole question of birds dying from chemicals is
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poppycock: it is not; I know that they did die. But we want to know more about it. We want to know, as I say, how many die and over what area, and in ordinary circumstances, in normal years, what is the usual wastage of birds, plants and the rest. That is basic information which to-day we do not have and which must be supplied by the Nature Conservancy, if by nobody else, and I hope in co-operation with any other departments of zoology and, in the case of plants, botany which interest themselves in these things.
To move now to a point which has not yet received attention from any noble Lord who has spoken, I was interested to read in the Report, on pages 44 and 45, about the work that is being done in regard to oil pollution and the damage to sea birds. That seems to me to be a very important job. It is a real menace which, except sporadically, receives far too little attention; and I am glad to see that the Inter-governmental Maritime Consultative Organisation is going to have a conference on March 26 to discuss this question. I very much hope that the Nature Conservancy will take a strong line and be able to reach international agreement in order to prevent the serious menace to wild life, particularly birds, round our shores from the disposal of vast quantities of oil, sometimes by mistake and sometimes deliberately, which has done so much damage.
I was glad to listen to the noble Lord, Lord Methuen, mentioning his experience overseas, because that also is one of the activities of the Nature Conservancy which seem to me of enormous value and for which perhaps they do not receive quite enough praise. I know it is a small part of their activities and that they have only a small amount of money with which to do these things. But in this country we have experienced men who understand the problems of conservation of wild life and plant life, particularly in Africa, but also in other parts of the world; and with this move towards independence throughout the whole of the former Colonial Empire it is only right that we should encourage that experience and make sure that the experience we have is available for the new independent countries. In doing that we shall achieve, at relatively little expense, a great deal of good will from those countries, and also do a great deal

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of good over a long period. I am glad to see that these activities are now transferred to the Department of Technical Co-operation, and I hope that this new department will find both its feet and its wings and spread the knowledge that we have in this country, through the Nature Conservancy, very far and very wide.
There is a further reason for this on which the noble Lord, Lord Methuen, touched—namely, that any of the problems which we have in this country of unbalance of nature, disturbing existing balance and the rest, however serious they may be here, are liable to be far more serious in tropical countries. There are two reasons for this. First, there is the one given by the noble Lord that there is an insufficent number of knowledgeable people using these new sprays and new techniques and an insufficient number of technically qualified people watching and checking on the results. The second reason is that in the tropics any reaction takes place so much faster than it does in more temperate climates, so that anything that may go wrong in this country over a period of ten years might well cause extensive damage in a matter of only two years if it is made use of in tropical countries.
There is only one other thing I want to say, and it refers to this sordid question of cash. The Nature Conservancy, which on the whole has received little but praise from your Lordships and is universally accepted as doing an immensely valuable job and one that has not only immediate importance but an importance spreading over the future much farther than we can see, received a total amount from the Exchequer last year of £413,000—a very small sum. It is not just that it is a small amount, but if your Lordships study this Report, as I am sure many of us have, you will see that in the opinion of the Nature Conservancy, it is a totally inadequate amount. On page 31 of the Report mention is made of the Interdepartmental Hydrological Research Group, and at the bottom of the second paragraph it says this:
"Meanwhile, although a number of experiments are being pursued, money is needed for adequate scientific research."
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There is no need to remind your Lordships, after the debate a few weeks ago on Ullswater and the need of Manchester for further water supplies, how urgent that form of research is, and how intolerable it is that this essential research for resolving this whole problem of water should be held up by the shortage of money.
On page 57 research studentships, a most valuable activity, is referred to. This gives encouragement and provides opportunities for learning and for simple forms of research which will lead to greater and more valuable contributions. There it is stated:
"Although the Conservancy had originally hoped that the number of awards they could make available in 1961 would be increased to twenty, it was necessary for financial reasons to restrict the number to fourteen, as in the previous year."
On page 69, dealing with the overseas problem, the Report says:
"The Conservancy find themselves in a position of some embarrassment on account of the many urgent requests for advice and help from overseas territories. … It seems evident that there are many cases in which the United Kingdom cannot disclaim responsibility fox giving such advice …"
And although it does not actually spell it out, it refers to more money to enable them to do so.
Finally, at page 73—perhaps the most disturbing feature of this whole Report—it is stated:
"In effect, development may be said to be practically at a standstill in 1961–62 except that the Conservancy have been able to make some progress in staff recruitment and to begin building their Experimental Station at Monks' Wood …"
That is under the heading of "Finance", because the money simply was not available for that purpose.
I hope that all that has been said in your Lordships' House this afternoon will go a long way towards convincing, perhaps not the noble Viscount, because maybe he is already convinced, but those of his colleagues who control the finances of the country that the work of the Conservancy is valuable work. Some of it
shows an economic return, and some of it can show an economic return quite quickly. But it is also of value for these other reasons which have been brought out during, the debate, and surely this country is not so poor to-day

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that it can afford only £413,000 in order to help this work reach its proper achievement.
5.22 p.m.
LORD DOUGLAS OF BARLOCH: My Lords, I should like to join with my noble friend Lord Shackleton, particularly in commending the ecological research which is being conducted by the Nature Conservancy, and to plead for a great deal more of it. This is a phase of research which has been very much neglected in the past, except for a few pioneer efforts such as those of the Soil Association. There is an enormous field here which is still unexplored.
Reference has been made to-day to the dangers of upsetting the balance of nature, and we are all aware of that in a general sense, but I do not think anybody knows exactly how much the balance of nature is being upset at the present day by the enormously rapid development which has taken place in the last quarter of a century or so in the application of chemicals to agriculture. I know it can very easily be said that agriculture itself has upset the balance of nature; but that, for the most part, has been a slow evolution in which man has discovered by trial and error what it is safe to do and what it is not safe to do. But time is mot permitting of the discovery of these things at the present moment nearly as rapidly as they should be discovered.
Mention has been made to-day—and we had a discussion about it some time ago—of the destruction of birds and other creatures by agricultural chemicals, particularly those used as seed dressings, but there are a great many other effects which are far less obvious but which also require investigation. There is the effect of sprays of various kinds upon the micro-organisms which populate the soil and which play an important and essential part in soil fertility; and the build-up of toxic chemicals in the soil may in course of time have a profound effect upon them. In that way, of course, it may have a profound effect upon the lives of human beings, who also are part of the whole ecological picture—not something standing outside of it and entirely uninfluenced by what is happening. I hope that more will be done to investigate these things and, indeed, to conduct the investigation at a
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sufficiently early stage, instead of leaving it, as we tend to do now, to allow things to be brought into widespread use as a result of great ingenuity on the part of the chemists and other people who are employed by the manufacturers, as a result, no doubt, of their demonstration that these things will perform certain useful functions. It does not follow that they will not have other side effects which may take time to develop but which may, in fact, far outweigh the benefits which appear to be obtained in the first instance.
I think far too much attention has been devoted to chemical means of controlling pests, for example, whereas in nature they are controlled by predators of various kinds, and a balance is established in that way. I do not know whether much research has been done in this country upon this subject, but in some other countries, certainly, research has been done on the value of predatory insects, for instance in eliminating those which are adverse to the growth of crops and fruits. That is an example of ecological research which may pave the way to dispensing with a great many of the expensive and dangerous treatments which are in operation at the present time.
There are also the side effects which may happen from the use of sprays, not merely to the crops, but upon the hedgerows and the natural vegetation of the countryside itself, with consequent destruction of insects of various kinds which play their part in nature, and some of which may play an extremely useful part. This is such an enormous field of research, potentially so important and useful, that I feel something ought to be done to develop it to a much greater extent than at present, and to make certain that it is co-ordinated with other fields of research in order to ensure that dangerous chemicals and processes are not put into operation before there has been an opportunity of ascertaining, so far as it is possible—and I admit it is very difficult—the potential ultimate effects which may outweigh the immediate beneficial ones.
5.30 p.m.
THE EARL OF NORTHESK: My Lords, I crave your Lordships' indulgence for intervening, but I should like to say a few words on this Motion which has

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been so excellently presented by the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton. I am in sympathy, as I am sure we all are, with the work of the Nature Conservancy, but I hope that, in all their deliberations, at the back of their minds they will always keep the balance of nature. I now speak not about plants, of which I know nothing, but about the animal world, in which I include birds. I have been a country dweller for many years, and if one lives primarily in the country one grows up with it and one learns to appreciate the wonderful thing that is the balance of nature. Some Almighty Being has organised this in a way that no human, no society, no foundation and no one else could have done.
May I give just one small example, which I do not think is individual to myself; in fact, I am sure many of your Lordships here have experienced it in recent years. In my area some five or six years ago there was a concerted drive against the grey squirrel. This was backed by a grant—I think it was 1s. a tail, but personally I found that it cost more in cartridges. To all intents and purposes the grey squirrel in my area was exterminated. What was the immediate result? Within twelve months we were absolutely swamped with pigeons. The grey squirrel is not a true squirrel; he is an American tree rat. His favourite diet is eggs, and I think particularly pigeons' eggs, and he kept down the number of pigeons to a very great extent. The pigeon is a worse menace to the farmer or the fruit grower than the rabbit, and heaven knows what we have done to him, poor devil! That is just one example of our upsetting the balance of nature.
The noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, in his speech referred to the possibility of hovercraft in the future affecting the lives, habits, migrationary instincts et cetera, of birds. I do not subscribe to his fear in this regard. I had some experience shortly after the First World War, when a friend of mine owned a small moor in South Ayrshire. One of the first airlines from Glasgow or Edinburgh to Northern Ireland flew directly over this moor; and in those days I doubt whether the aircraft flew at more than 500 feet. For one year the grouse put their heads down and if there was an aeroplane in the area you could not
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get them anywhere. Within twelve months it made no difference to them. They had become accustomed to them. I think the danger from the hovercraft that the noble Lord envisages will possibly have an effect in the early stages, but that nature will again adjust itself to this problem.
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, would the noble Earl allow me to interrupt? I was not worried very much about the disturbance to birds because of aircraft, but the actual destruction of, let us say, a reed bed. Even if the aircraft he mentioned were flying low, they were certainly not flying as low as hovercraft will. We do not know what impact these hovercraft will have in an area where possibly nobody goes at all; where the area is equivalent to a nature reserve or some special site. These hovercraft might completely destroy the natural habitat of certain creatures. I was not thinking of birds only.
THE EARL OF NORTHESK: I think that on that thesis I would agree with the noble Lord. It is a problem which has to be considered, but I am inclined to believe that, with the passage of time, his fears may not be so well founded.
The noble Earl, Lord Haddington, referred to wild-fowlers and stressed the point that they are under control and had abided by the rules which have been laid down by their society for the reasonable shooting of wild fowl. I think it is only in the very few cases of those who are not members of wild-fowling associations that any indiscriminate shooting and killing takes place; and I should like to pay a tribute to the wild-fowling associations for their cooperation in the conservation of wild fowl in every way.
THE EARL OF HADDINGTON: My Lords, I am afraid, in my own defence, I must say that the noble Earl's view is exactly contrary to mine.
THE EARL OF NORTHESK: I think I would support my noble friend in what he has said throughout this afternoon. There is one other point. He has spoken on nature conservancy, and during the speeches this afternoon the term "nature reserves" has cropped up from time to time. That may perhaps evoke some doubt in your Lordships' minds as to

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whether the two are synonymous or whether there is a difference. As I understand it, the Nature Conservancy will go to any lengths, and rightly, to preserve and try to stimulate the reproduction of an animal group or bird group indigenous to these islands which is in danger of extinction; and to do that it may be necessary in the immediate vicinity of where these particular animals are mating, nesting or breeding to adopt stringent measures against their natural predators in order to give them the chance to get a footing once again to reproduce their species to a reasonable degree and to the point where they can then be left to survive by their own natural instincts.
Therefore, while I support this conservation and the possible destruction of a number of predators in the early stages of the preservation and resurrection of a breed, I hope that the Conservancy will, as soon as the moment arises and they think proper, leave the breed or species to fend for itself and not preserve it at the expense of other of our natural fauna. I think that is all I have to say, and I apologise for taking your Lordships' time.
5.39 p.m.
LORD CHORLEY: My Lords, I find myself very much in sympathy with what was said by the noble Lord, Lord Douglas of Barloch, about the importance of ecology and also, I gather, by my noble friend Lord Shackleton, of whose speech, unfortunately, I was able to hear only the last passages. I think the noble Lord who has just resumed his seat was saying much the same thing when he talked about preserving the balance of nature, although I was not quite sure that the grey squirrel was the best illustration that he could have given of that case. Somebody rather disturbed the balance of nature when the grey squirrel was imported into this country, with the result that in most of England, at any rate, it is driving out the red squirrel, which is a much more beautiful creature and, of course, the native type of squirrel.
I should like to say a few words about that point later, but before doing so I should like to confirm what the noble and learned Viscount who leads the House said about Rhum. The noble
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Viscount, Lord Massereene and Ferrard, suggested that the Nature Conservancy had been making it very difficult for people to go to the isle of Rhum. Before the Conservancy took control of the island, when I was staying on the island just opposite the isle of Rhum and wished to go across there to climb the lovely mountain and made inquiries, I was told that I ought to have started weeks before, and that, even then, I might not have succeeded in getting a permit. It has been undoubtedly very difficult indeed to get on to the isle of Rhum living memory, and the noble and learned Viscount was undoubtedly right in his interjection on that point.
This problem of ecology, which is of basic importance to science, was a good deal in the news some years ago, but unfortunately it seems to have attracted much less attention of late years. I have no doubt whatever that the Nature Conservancy are very much alive to its importance. They are not primarily appointed for the purpose of conducting research, and, as the noble Lord, Lord Walston, pointed out, the amount of finance they receive is not sufficient to enable them to do many of the things they would undoubtedly like to do. But I have not the slightest doubt that they are alive to the importance of the ecological significance of their work.
If I may be allowed a personal reminiscence, I once had the very great pleasure of accompanying the present Director of The Nature Conservancy to the Swiss National Park in the Inn Valley, where very interesting and valuable work in ecology is carried on. I think I see him in the Chamber—though possibly I should not refer to this. We had the privilege of being shown over this admirable work by Professor Handschin, a member of the Swiss National Park Commission, as it were, a very eminent ecologist of Basle University, whose death during the last few weeks the scientific world has been mourning. So that I have not the slightest doubt that The Nature Conservancy is very much alive to the importance of this question. I should like, however, to support what the noble Lord, Lord Douglas of Barloch, said about the essential importance of getting on with this work and making its importance more widely known; and

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that is the point I should like to emphasise, in these few remarks.
This Report, which we find such an interesting and valuable document, is most educational. I always try to do my best to look through its pages when it comes out. It may be that pressure is so great that I do not have the chance of reading it all through, and it may be that the Report contains more about the ecological significance of the work of the Conservancy than I have been able to find, but, so far as I have seen, there is on this problem not much more than about a page which is devoted largely to some work going on in the coastal areas. I believe that it would enhance the value of the Report a great deal if this side of the work could be written in rather more fully.
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, perhaps I may interrupt my noble friend, since he admits that he has not read the Report fully. In fact rather more than half of the Nature Conservancy's money goes to research; and if the Nature Conservancy is not about ecology I do not know what it is about. It seems to me almost wholly an ecological Report.
LORD CHORLEY: That is not quite the view that I should take of it. It may well be that most of it has an indirect bearing on the ecological side of the matter, but I should not have thought than any ordinary person, of the kind who is a member of a rambling club or of one of the various societies closely concerned to be educated in this matter, could possibly, on reading this Report, have grasped the ecological significance of what is going on. I am not appealing on behalf of people like the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, who are versed in science and can read between the lines; I am appealing for the ordinary rambler, and the ordinary men and women of that kind, who are extraordinarily interested in the work of the Nature Conservancy, and great supporters of it, and many of whom are readers of this Report. But they are not sufficiently founded in biological science to appreciate exactly what is no doubt revealed to the expert scientist, like my noble friend, in the pages before him.
What I would appeal for is that this particular aspect of the matter might be borne in mind, in order that the require-
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ments of men and women like these may be the better satisfied. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Hurcomb, will not feel that I am "teaching my grandmother to suck eggs," to use the proverbial expression, but will remember that there are very large numbers, especially of the younger citizens, who are fascinated by these problems but to whom the matter might well be made much clearer.
5.47 p.m.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, until the noble Lord, Lord Walston, spoke about my rude health, I was about to ask for the indulgence of the House if it should appear that I gave, in answer to this interesting debate, a slightly less audible and more perfunctory reply than I should otherwise have liked to do. I am somewhat short of breath and voice; indeed, at one time it looked as if I should not be able to attend the debate at all. But, as the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, in his kindly remarks pointed out, this is the first debate, I think, of any length, in either House of Parliament upon the Nature Conservancy, for which I have been responsible now for four years, and it would have been a great disappointment to me had I not been able to answer the debate myself, especially as the subject is, although not at all uninteresting, not at all uncomplicated either.
The Nature Conservancy is itself still the smallest, although not by any means the least important or the least interesting, of the bodies for which I answer in Parliament. It has resemblances to and differences from the other bodies which I think are necessary to understand in order to appreciate the exact bearing of the Report. Like the other bodies for which I am responsible, it is governed by an autonomous Board. I think it is important to emphasise this and at the same time to join with other noble Lords who have spoken this afternoon in paying tribute to members of the Board who give their work to this important matter; in particular to the present Chairman of the Board, Lord Hurcomb, who is a most distinguished Member of your Lordships' House; the Chairman-designate, Lord Howick of Glendale, whom I was very lucky to be able to persuade to take his place, as well as the past Chairmen, Sir Arthur Tansley and Sir Arthur Duncan, who are not Members of this House.

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I think it is important to emphasise this fact: that my responsibilities in the matter fall far short of the actual administration exercised by a departmental Minister, although they go far beyond that of mere sponsorship. I think this is as it should be, and it is a point of general significance. It is not simply that it is not desirable for matters of this kind to be under what is sometimes called a fully-fledged Ministry of Science; it is that they could not be done at all by a fully-fledged Ministry as they are being done at the moment by those who carry on the work as autonomous bodies under the general responsibility of the Minister for Science. In practice, I keep extremely close contact with the Conservancy and express my views quite freely. In return, I respect its scientific integrity and accord it a wide independence of judgment, I think this is the rôle which Parliament really has cast for me in the Act and Charter under which the Conservancy is set up. If so, I hope that I shall be supported in maintaining this position, because it is not always easy to do so—there are some who would like me to interfere to a greater extent than I do, and of course I can only respect the integrities of the bodies for which I speak, and of which I am not a member, to the extent that Parliament supports me in so doing.
Although it is the smallest of the five or six bodies for which I answer in Parliament, like the other bodies for which I am responsible, the Nature Conservancy has had a very rapid growth indeed. Indeed, I think I can say without doubt that, apart from the Atomic Energy Authority, which had its most rapid period of growth before I came to be responsible for it, the scientific bodies for which I speak have since then grown more rapidly than any other Government Department. In 1955, the Nature Conservancy was receiving a sum of something of the order of £200,000. In the current year, that is to say, 1961–62, the figure is likely to be £535,000; and in the year to come, 1962–63, it is likely to be just short of £600,000—namely, £590,000. I think, therefore, it is fair to say that it has had a most satisfactory rate of growth. I must impress upon the House, first of all, that it is, I think, not just in those circumstances to talk about a cut in its estimate. Its estimate will have
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increased by something like 12 per cent. between the current year and the next year. Secondly, quite apart from the general questions of financial discipline which have to be observed in scientific bodies, no less than in any others, there is an optimum rate at which bodies composed of human beings, particularly of distinguished human beings, can be made to grow. I should not myself in the least doubt that its growth will continue in a healthy manner from year to year until it reaches its optimum, which will not be yet.
So far, my Lords, the Nature Conservancy is like the other Councils for which I speak. But, unlike the other bodies for which I speak, the Conservancy is not solely concerned with scientific research. In the ecological field scientific research constitutes, as the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, pointed out, an extremely important part of its work. I shall be reverting to that side of its work in the course of my remarks. But it is, of course, concerned with conservation, which is not primarily research work but is work that has to be carried out. Conservation is something which is done partly by the constitution of nature reserves, to which again I will come and which, I must insist, have nothing whatever to do with national parks. I think that is at the bottom of some of the complaints of some of my noble friends; they think that a nature reserve is something like a national park. It is quite a different conception and a quite different sort of animal altogether. Nobody must think that a nature reserve is there simply for the delectation of the public, in the sense that Scafell is there for the delectation of the public; it is there as a matter of scientific interest, sometimes for research and sometimes for preservation.
Quite apart from the reserves, to which again I will come, the Nature Conservancy is concerned necessarily with education and public relations, to a degree quite different from that of the other Research Councils which are concerned with scientific matters. This is because conservation can be carried out only by the general public over a great part of the country. I think several noble Lords, have, in effect, pointed this out, but this is the essence of the matter. It must have the farming community on

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its side; it must have the local authorities on its side; it must have the landowner on its side, and it must have bodies like the Wildfowl Trust and the rambling societies on its side, because all these bodies can, in individual instances, have an immense effect upon the conservation of nature. It follows, therefore, that the Nature Conservancy is not the same as the other Research Councils.
The differences reflect themselves in its organisation. For instance, whereas the Research Councils have, in the main, Fellows of the Royal Society and distinguished natural scientists as their Secretaries, the Nature Conservancy has a most distinguished administrator, who was recruited from the Lord President's office. I would, perhaps improperly, pay a tribute to him. At any rate, the Board contains not only scientists but landowners; it contains Peers, as we have heard. I should like to acknowledge the public work done by them, including my noble friend Lord Forbes, who has spoken as a member of the Scottish Committee. Then there are at least two Members of Parliament, one drawn from each of the major Parties. It contains, also, amateur naturalists, because being a naturalist is one of the few ways in which an amateur can still do valuable scientific work. As a rule, science has got beyond the amateur nowadays, but in geological and natural studies this is not altogether so. I should like to welcome them, too.
The difference between the Conservancy and the other Research Councils also reflects itself in the nature of the Report which we are discussing. It is much longer. It contains attractive illustrations and a good deal of argumentative matter. The other scientific Council Reports are much more formal, because they rely to a much greater extent upon the ordinary scientific learned publications for the publication of their results. This, I would say, to some extent explains the point which arose during the time when the noble Lord, Lord Chorley, was speaking. When you are doing the purely scientific work which is done by Government scientists, it is published in the ordinary way in scientific newspapers and publications. The contents of an Annual Report do
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not usually repeat that; it deals from time to time with matters of more general interest in relation to the work of the Council. In the case of the Nature Conservancy the Report is, in fact, much longer and fuller, for the reason that I have given, than those of the other Councils for which I speak.
Another feature which I think puts the Conservancy on a slightly different footing from the other Councils is that it must from time to time, publicly or privately, engage in controversial matters. For instance, your Lordships will probably have noticed at the time, though it may not now be present to your Lordships' minds, that when a public inquiry was held about Dungeness Power Station the Director-General of the Nature Conservancy gave evidence, and was severely, and I thought quite improperly, criticised by counsel for the Central Electricity Board for having done so. It seemed to me quite inevitable that in a matter of that kind the Nature Conservancy should play a part. It had a good deal to say, both about the value of Dungeness as a physical feature of our island, which presents some most interesting scientific features, but also about its position as a place where birds rest after their crossing of the sea.
It seemed to me to be perfectly proper that in one form or another the Nature Conservancy should give evidence at a public inquiry where interests of that kind were involved; although I make no complaint about the decision of the inquiry, which was in the end that the power station should be built. I supported the Conservancy over this, although I say, quite frankly, that I usually try to urge them to rely where possible on private consultation rather than to engage in public controversy.
Also, of course, conservation involves holding relatively large areas of land, the nature reserves, and making agreements with owners in relation to others. That again means that the public relations aspect of the Nature Conservancy is a matter of very great importance to them. No other Council for which I speak, except perhaps the Atomic Energy Authority, has a similar problem. The Nature Conservancy is a very large landowner indeed, relatively speaking, and takes a pride in good

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neighbourliness, in good relations with the local authorities and in good relations with associations of sportsmen or climbers who happen to want to use the land too. It was for this reason that I ventured to interrupt my noble friend Lord Massereene and Ferrard when he was talking about the Island of Rhum, because it seemed to me—and this goes back some years now, although it was within my period of office—that the Nature Conservancy came in for a slightly unfair criticism about the Island of Rhum which, as I told your Lordships, was very closely guarded by the family that owned it, and in respect of which the Nature Conservancy has very much relaxed the regulations which were imposed by its former owners. But the Nature Reserve is itself an open-air laboratory, and one has to recognise that the indiscriminate presence at an open air laboratory of visitors can lead to interference with the scientific work that is going on.
The noble Lord, Lord Walston, I am sure would not do it nowadays, but he did contemplate, at least, an act which would have interfered with the very carefully arranged culling programme of the red deer and might have vitiated the final results, especially if his action had gone unnoticed, as no doubt he hoped it would. For these reasons it is necessary to impose certain restrictions on access. I would say this, as one who in the dim past has been a mountaineer: that the Island of Rhum is one of two places in this country—Skye being the other one—where there is an outcrop of Gabbro rock which leads to very good climbing. There are no facilities for rescue there, and it is not a good thing in such an area to give absolutely unlimited access to people who may not be familiar with the mountain conditions, which can be extremely dangerous, especially at certain times of the year.
While I am referring to the reserves I think I should deal more fully with them. During the early years of the Conservancy's life the reserves took up most of its resources and also preoccupied the Conservancy more than they will do when they reach their final form. The original programme was to acquire control over areas totalling about 250,000 acres spread over some 140 reserves.
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This programme has been reviewed from time to time and still remains the broad objective. It was endorsed by the House of Commons Select Committee on Estimates in their Seventh Report in 1958; after a detailed examination of the plans they said that on the whole they upheld it. Up to now 95 reserves have been declared in Great Britain, covering 180,000 acres, so that the task is about two-thirds of the way towards completion.
It is the Conservancy's desire to complete the programme as soon as practicable, in order to secure a full range of conditions where certain types of flora and fauna can flourish in a favourable environment, and to establish these areas as reserves before the character of the land is altered—sometimes, as noble Lords have pointed out, in directions which cannot be reversed. When these reserves are established, some are to be used for scientific experiments and research. The remainder are not simply protected from external interference and then left to their own devices, because, as noble Lords have said, nature does not stand still: conservation does not mean neglect that could lead over the course of years to the disappearance of the very features which it is designed to conserve. Therefore, a Management Plan has to be worked out for each Reserve, requiring the control or culling of animal life, the clearance of scrub, in addition to the normal maintenance work of fencing and ditching, and so on, which is an essential part of estate management. These Management Plans now cover about two-thirds of the reserves so far acquired.
The reserves of course vary enormously in size. The smallest are only a few acres; the largest are five of over 10,000 acres. Of these, four, including the 40,000 acre reserve in the Cairngorms and the Island of Rhum, are in Scotland. In its acquisition of property the Conservancy has sought to enlist the cooperation of land-owners so far as possible. It usually tries either to lease the property or to make an agreement with the owners for the management of the area as a nature reserve. Only about one-third of the nature reserve acreage has had to be bought by the Conservancy, and I am glad to say that the powers of compulsory purchase it possesses have never in fact been used.

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I think on the whole that reflects credit on all concerned.
The noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, referred to other sites, which are not reserves, of special scientific interest which the Conservancy has surveyed in co-operation with naturalists' trusts and other voluntary bodies. Those sites are notified to the local planning authorities and to their owners and occupiers, but, as the noble Lord pointed out, they do not enjoy the same degree of protection as the nature reserves, and some have been lost to farming and forestry operations and to mineral, industrial and housing development. I do not think that I can give the exact figures for which the noble Lord asked. There are, I think, some 1,700 sites already designated, of which it might be said 22 have been lost, and there are another 200 sites, in addition to the 1,700, which have not yet been designated but which are likely to be designated.
As the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, and other noble Lords have said, the policy of conservation reflects only a part of the Conservancy's activities. As to the other part, it is concerned partly with ecological research, partly with scientific advice, and partly with liaison with other similar bodies in other parts of the world. As soon as the reserves programme approaches completion the Conservancy will be able to concentrate more and more, as I hope it will, on its research and on its advisory work. This was, I think, in accordance with the recommendation of the Estimates Committee, and I think both myself and the Conservancy agree with this policy.
A great deal has been said about the science of ecology. It is of course a complex matter, being of its nature a study of variables, drawing on the other classic disciplines of science perhaps, rather than being in itself a new discipline. Nature, itself, is an imprecise term. I suppose that when the white man first went to America one could say there was something called nature with which the red man had a kind of ecological balance and, as violent disturbances took place as a result of the white man's presence, that balance was upset. There were startling events of one sort or another and even whole species were exterminated, as the
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American pigeon was exterminated, or very nearly exterminated, and as the American bison was very nearly exterminated. The Caledonian Forest at the moment is, I suppose, very largely grouse moor and deer forest, but we do not see very many trees on it, which is a result of man's interference hundreds of years ago.
When I was a child I used to walk on the South Downs. The South Downs then looked like what we should call part of our unspoiled natural heritage. It was almost entirely man-made. The nice short, springy turf, the blue butterflies, were a product of sheep grazing, sheep having been introduced by the human species; and part of the flora and fauna as well as the shape of the land have very largely been determined by the fact that in the Iron Age men had ploughed it and tilled it and used it for wheat growing—which in fact it was used for again in my middle years, during the war. So nature is not an altogether easy conception in the British Isles. I sometimes hear debates about the Christchurch Meadow but, as I look at it with an ecological eye, I see that it has been denuded of lime for a very long time, and has a very large variety of weed life, part of which grows on a rubbish dump of more than an acre in extent. However, I must not transgress into other functions too far outside the Nature Conservancy.
Of course, I would agree with the noble Lords who have stressed the importance of the study of ecology. It is not a particularly well-tilled field of study, not as well-tilled as it might be, straddling as it does several more precisely definable disciplines. Therefore I do encourage the Conservancy, within its resources, in building up research effort. We cannot, I think, expect immediate, quick results from research of this kind. But, if your Lordships will refer to Chapter IV of the Report, you will see a number of examples.
One programme is on Woodlands and Population Dynamics. The Conservancy's largest research station is at Merlewood near Grange-over-Sands, Which I visited some two years ago, where a team of botanists, chemists, mycologists and zoologists is studying the biological and physical processes

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which operate in woodlands. They are, of course, concerned to understand how the natural woodland works. I think it would delight the hearts of the noble Lord, Lord Wilmot of Selmeston, and the noble Lord, Lord Douglas of Barloch, to see how the multitude of living organisms in and above a forest soil interact with one another and with the mineral and organic materials in the soil. The Conservancy is studying the cycles and rates of flow of energy and plant nutrients into the vegetation, and back, by means of the decomposing animals and microbes, into the soil again. It covers a vast complex of processes involving the interactions of plants, animals, bacteria and fungi.
Inevitably, a programme such as this must be long-term. It may have potential applications. It may spread through forestry, agriculture and, indeed, all land use. For example, for several essential plant nutrients, such as nitrogen, calcium and phosphorus, detailed balance-sheets have been prepared showing not only the nutrient capital, as it were, but also additions and withdrawals made from it at different stages of woodland development. From an examination of these sheets it is possible to determine the extent to which foresters can remove produce and the nutrients it contains without endangering the soil reserves and destroying the biological equilibrium. I think the importance of these studies has been widely recognised and, following the British lead, other work of the same kind is now being done in other countries, including New Zealand, the United States, and Thailand. Other types of project which the Conservancy undertakes are sometimes related to more specific practical problems, such as coastal erosion. Research by the Nature Conservancy reveals that vegetation management can be used in some places to stabilise shores and to prevent erosion more cheaply and to better effect than concrete.
Many noble Lords—I think it would almost be invidious to mention them by name, because there were so many—have referred to the use of toxic chemicals in agriculture. A recent Report of the Research Study Group, which I think is known as the Sanders Report, certainly establishes that we do not know as much as we should about the effects of these chemicals and it
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recommended increased effort in specific areas of research. The areas concerned are, of course, extremely wide. Some of the work will be done by the Agricultural Research Council, some by the Ministry of Agriculture itself, some by the Government Chemist, who works under the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research, and same by the Nature Conservancy. There is a Committee, under the chairmanship of Professor Frazer, of the Agricultural Research Council, which I set up precisely for the purpose of seeing that the Report is pursued in its appropriate spheres by the appropriate scientific organisation. The Nature Conservancy, with which we are concerned to-day, is responsible for the study of the effects on wild life and the natural environment. The new experimental station at Monks' Wood, as I think the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, said, will be undertaking research on this subject.
I think it was the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, too, who referred to the work on hydrological research, undertaken by the Nature Conservancy and by other bodies under my responsibility. We clearly have to learn more about the factors affecting our water supplies if we are to make the best use of them. Several bodies have responsibilities here. The Geological Survey, which comes under the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research, the Meteorological Office, the Hydraulics Research Station at Wallingford, and the various interests are brought together in a Committee on Hydrological Research under a D.S.I.R. chairman, which I think was set up last year, again partly as a result of the formation of the Ministry over which I preside.
The special contribution of the Nature Conservancy, Who are, of course, represented on this Committee, is in the study of the influences of different forms of land use and land management on the evaporation and run-off elements in the hydrological cycle. The Conservancy is conducting investigations and experiments in extensive watershed areas—of course, it owns an enormous area of about 10,000 acres on the Pennines—and is providing staff for a new Catchment Research Unit which will be established initially at the D.S.I.R. Hydraulics Research Station at Walling-

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ford. Your Lordships will observe that this again establishes the need for a co-ordinating Ministry, although, as I said at the outset, the work has to be carried out by working scientists operating under Research Councils.
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Walston, referred to work in the universities, and in all the fields of research undertaken by the Research Councils it is necessary that they should be kept in close touch with work being carried on in corresponding fields in the universities. One very successful way of achieving this is for the Councils to award grants to universities and other institutions for research projects and investigations. This was one of the fields in which the Select Committee on Estimates recommended expansion by the Nature Conservancy, and I have fully supported their recommendations. Annual expenditure on such research grants has, in fact, increased from £9,000 in 1954–55 to £29,000 in 1960–61, and I think that the strictures of the noble Lord, Lord Walston, based on a passage in the Report, should be read in the light of that very large rate of increase.
These grants promote research which is of direct interest to the Conservancy, but they also help to supplement the traditional teaching of zoology and botany in universities by encouraging the more comprehensive approach that is essential for the study of ecology. To meet the urgent need for an advanced training course in conservation, University College, London, introduced in 1960 a one-year Diploma Course in Conservation open to graduates in biology and related disciplines. This venture is supported by the Conservancy, which awards a number of studentships while the college provides the training facilities.
My Lords, I think the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, referred in his speech to the need to go outside of the restricted sense of the Nature Conservancy's field of responsibility, and to talk more widely about the biological natural resources of our country. The Advisory Council on Scientific Policy, in the first Report which I asked them to prepare after I was appointed to my present position, have drawn attention to the lack of any clear, general responsibility for research
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in this broad field, and with my full approval they set up last year a committee, under Sir William Slater, the former Secretary of the Agricultural Research Council, to consider the implications of the establishment of a new research council.
This committee is reviewing the present organisation of research in fisheries, forestry, hydrology and a number of other subjects, for which many research organisations, including the Nature Conservancy, have part responsibility. The committee will report to me, through the Advisory Council on Scientific Policy, later this year. I cannot, of course, say what form the Committee's recommendations are likely to take, but I mention this matter as a sign of the growing recognition of the need to make the best use of our natural resources, which I see as some evidence that the creation of a post such as that which I now occupy has in fact led, over quite a wide field, to new inquiries being undertaken with a view to further activities when the results of the inquiries are known.
My Lords, I would add simply this: that I think, in common with the noble Lord, that the biological sciences are probably on the verge of great developments which may well transform them in the next 50 years, just as the physical sciences have been revolutionised in the past 50 years. No one can predict what form these new discoveries will take—in that sense, whatever may be true in other political fields, planning is not possible—but we must make sure that our organisation of scientific research is such as to encourage the developments to take place in this country on an adequate scale and with work of a sufficiently distinguished quality, and to allow their speedy growth and exploitation.
Before I sit down I think I should say a word or two, in view of the fact that several noble Lords have raised these points, both about the scientific advice given by the Nature Conservancy and also about liaison with other bodies in different countries and continents which may be engaged on the same work. The Charter of the Nature Conservancy specifically charges it with the provision of scientific advice on the conservation and control of our natural

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flora and fauna. This, of course, is vital, because, as noble Lords have pointed out, the nature reserves themselves cover such a small fraction of our land surface. The Conservancy's advice has in fact often been sought, and as its own knowledge and experience develops—and it is a body less than thirteen years old—it will be able to offer increasing help.
I see that my noble friend Lord Raglan, who spoke with moving pathos about the primrose which was uprooted by a delinquent, is no longer here; but one striking example has, in fact, been the advice given by the Conservancy a few years ago on the destructive effects of herbicides on the flora of the roadside verges which are not only particularly characteristic of the British countryside but also a significantly valuable source of types of weed which manage to escape the rye grass and clover planted by my noble friend Lord Massereene and Ferrard. Discussions with the Ministry of Transport and local highway authorities led to a working agreement, and this has spared our roadside verges from the worst features of chemical destruction which have occurred in other countries.
Your Lordships have referred (and, if I may say so, have rightly referred) to the international aspects of the Conservancy's work. It was partly from that point of view that I was particularly glad when the noble Lord, Lord Howick of Glendale, felt himself able to accept the chairmanship in succession to the noble Lord, Lord Hurcomb. He has, if I may say so, an extremely valuable contribution to make owing to his experience in Africa, and not least to his prowess in other countries as a mountaineer. Since 1957, the Conservancy has been giving advice on overseas conservation problems to the Secretary of State for the Colonies, and since last year to the new Department of the Secretary for Technical Co-operation. I think this has been of advantage, not merely to the territories concerned and to the Colonial Office but also to the Conservancy, because this has given them wide-ranging international contacts, both formally, through representation on international bodies, and at scientific and technical level, through the
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participation of individual officers as active members of professional and other organisations.
This two-way flow of information and advice enables them to relate their work on subjects of international application—such as, for instance, the effects of toxic chemicals on wild life—to similar work going on in other countries. Furthermore, of course, this is especially a matter of great value when we are dealing, as we are dealing, in the case of toxic chemicals, with a few substances of great potency which may be very widely sprayed in a relatively short space of time. I do not propose to go further into that aspect of the matter to-day, because it is very largely within the responsibility of my right honourable friend the Minister of Agriculture.
My Lords, I am sure the noble Lord, Lord Methuen, will be interested to know that the Conservancy is a member of the International Union for the Conservation of Nature, to which he referred, and that it provides members and officers to serve on the governing body and commissions of the International Union. These, I think, have been prominent in the planning of its work, including the current successful African Special Project, to which I think the Report refers and to which the noble Lord, Lord Methuen, referred in his speech. A liaison officer of the Union is now stationed at the Conservancy's Headquarters. I am told that this is proving both an economical and a helpful arrangement.
We believe that this international cooperation is bearing fruit in the constructive attitude of the emerging countries of Africa. For instance, at Arusha, to which certainly one noble Lord referred (I am not sure whether it was the noble Lord, Lord Methuen), Mr. Nyerere expounded an attitude which we welcome in the remarkable words of what I am told is now to be called the "Arusha Manifesto". This stated:
"The survival of our wild life is a matter of grave concern to all of us in Africa. These wild creatures amid the wild places they inhabit are not only important as a source of wonder and inspiration, but are an integral part of our natural resources and of our future livelihood and well being.
"In accepting the trusteeship of our wild life, we solemnly declare that we will do everything in our power to make sure that our

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children's grandchildren will be able to enjoy this rich and precious inheritance. The conservation of wild life and wild places calls for specialist knowledge, trained manpower, and money, and we look to other nations to cooperate in this important task—the success or failure of which not only affects the Continent of Africa but the rest of the world as well."
My Lords, I think this really covers the field I had intended to deal with in the course of this debate, and which has been very well covered by noble Lords in all parts of the House who have contributed to a very enjoyable afternoon's discussion. The impression that I have been trying to create is that of a body entrusted with important work, carrying it on with enthusiasm and responsibility, and with a rapidly growing range of activities, no doubt subjected, like other bodies of enthusiasts, to some financial discipline, but still growing at a rate very much faster than most other public activities at the present time. I have also tried to relate it in some way to the general work of my Office and to the philosophy under which we are trying to set up a scientific organisation in this country. My Lords, I myself should like to add a word of thanks to the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, for making this debate possible, and to say to all noble Lords who have taken part in it that I will certainly see that what they have said is taken due note of, and that any further action that seems right will be taken.
6.33 p.m.
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, I, too, am very grateful to those of your Lordships who have taken part in this debate. When I first looked at the list, I was inclined to think that perhaps the more representative Peers from Scotland were more interested in nature conservancy than English Peers, but luckily some English Peers have joined in. As was explained, there is perhaps more room for nature conservancy, or for obtaining land, in Scotland. None the less, I think it has been a helpful debate, and I should like to make only one or two small points to the noble Viscount, Lord Hailsham. I am not quite sure what he said about a cut in the Estimates. I think he said that the cut was not a cut. I do not want to be clever or to argue this, but I would point out
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that the Nature Conservancy's own Report refers to the fact that
"despite the imposition of a serious cut in their Estimates, which necessitated considerable reduction in planned activity, the Conservancy",
et cetera. I should hope that in this particular field these cuts are kept to the minimum, and in fact turn into the increases that the noble Viscount suggests they have become.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, I believe there is no difference between us here. I think it is sometimes misleading to refer to a cut, when what is meant is an increase smaller than that which was originally desired.
LORD SHACKLETON: Well, my Lords, we all have troubles with financial advisers, as well as with Chancellors. I was a little disappointed that the noble Viscount did not say a little more about the sites of special scientific interest. I would only urge upon him again that there is strong feeling that there ought to be some more "teeth" so as to ensure that notification is made either to the Nature Conservancy, or to the local county trusts, before these sites are ploughed up or drained, or anything else which the clients of the noble Earl, Lord Waldegrave, may wish to achieve. This is a matter which is causing anxiety. Here, again, one is trying to achieve a balance between interests, but sometimes this could be avoided if there were some requirement at least to notify.
I was particularly interested to hear that the noble Viscount, like the noble Lord, Lord Methuen, was concerned, and so rightly, with the rôle that the Nature Conservancy have played in helping in overseas conservation, particularly in Africa. I hope the money will be available for it, and that in this matter the Department for Technical Co-operation, who, after all, will be concerned with scientific activities of one kind or another, may support his efforts to get extra money for this particular activity.
There is one other matter to which I want to refer, and that is the question of the use of the word "ecology ". The noble Lord, Lord Chorley, is not here, so I do not know whether there is much point in attempting to explain; but it seemed unfair that, in a world in which little ecology is done, this criticism should be made. There are few applied,

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and certainly very few fundamental, ecologists in this country. There is this interesting and remarkable group at Oxford under Sir Charles Elton. But the one body trying to do it is the Nature Conservancy, and to criticise them for not doing it seems to me unfair. I would have pointed out many other references in this Report to the research work which they are doing and which is mainly concerned with ecology. I might write to the noble Lord, Lord Chorley, and tell him this, but the opening of the Nature Conservancy's own publication refers to this where they give an admirable account of conservation. They say that:
"Nature Conservancy is the name of the national body who have the task of conserving fauna … and flora … and the water, rocks and soil on which they live. These basic elements form environments for living things varying from place to place in more or less recognisably distinct patterns which we call 'habitats'. Studying how living things live together in their habitats is called 'ecology', which is Greek for 'home knowing'."
I think the distinguished Director-General, Mr. Max Nicholson, was not always a scientist; I believe he had a degree in Greats, so he would be well aware of the definition. Certainly it is satisfactory that there has been such emphasis on ecology in this debate.
I should like to end by expressing my appreciation of the speech of the noble Viscount. He laboured on cheerfully in difficult conditions, and is, in fact, looking better, I think, than he did at the beginning of the debate. There was a moment when I thought he was a little at pains to justify his own existence and the existence of his Ministry. I can only assure him that, judging from his performance to-day and the rôle he is playing in this matter, there is very little need for him to seek to justify himself. I ask leave to withdraw my Motion.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

FORTH AND CLYDE CANAL (EXTINGUISHMENT OF RIGHTS OF NAVIGATION) BILL
Reported without amendment, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.
  UNITED KINGDOM AND ITALY: DOUBLE TAXATION AVOIDANCE
  UNITED KINGDOM AND ITALY: DOUBLE TAXATION AVOIDANCE