Sitting of 27 February 1962

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  SCIENCE

    D.S.I.R. (Research Stations)
    Mr. Greyasked the Parliamentary Secretary for Science how many research stations are run, or grant assisted, by the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research; and which of these are in the northern region.
    The Parliamentary Secretary for Science (Mr. Denzil Freeth): The Department of Scientific and Industrial Research has 15 research stations, and also makes grants to 52 research associations, of which 47 have research stations. Of these last, the Parsons and Marine Engineering Turbine Research and Development Association (PAMETRADA), one of the larger research associations, is in the northern region, in Newcastle.
    Mr. Grey: Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that research stations are as important as factories to the North-East, both as stimulants and as a means of employment for science graduates, many of whom have to leave the area in order to find work? Will he look into that aspect of the matter?
    Mr. Freeth: I will certainly look into this matter, but the hon. Member will agree that the siting of co-operative industrial research establishments and laboratories is a matter primarily for the industrial members of the research association, who pay far and away the majority of the subscriptions.

    River Trent, Burton-on-Trent
    Mr. Jenningsasked the Parliamentary Secretary for Science what conclusions the Department of Scientific and Industrial
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    Research came to, and what advice was given by them, as a result of the experiments carried out at Wallingford on the large-scale model of the Burton-on-Trent reaches of the River Trent, and if he will send to the hon. Member for Burton a copy of the report made on this experiment.
    Mr. Denzil Freeth: I shall be happy to send a copy of this report to my hon. Friend. The conclusions reached are not capable of brief summary, since several alternative improvement schemes were considered.
    Mr. Jennings: In congratulating the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research and the Trent River Board on undertaking and carrying out this experiment, may I ask my hon. Friend if he can tell me whether there is any valid reason at all why the citizens of Burton should not be told what is contained in this report?
    Mr. Freeth: This report was made by the Hydraulics Research Station for the Trent River Board and was submitted to it. However, I am sending a copy to my hon. Friend, and he can make such use of it as he thinks fit.
    Mr. Jennings: I am much obliged.
    Mr. Mitchison: What was the object of the experiment?
    Mr. Freeth: The investigation was carried out in order to discover the probable effect on the River Trent, and flood levels in and near Burton, of removing Drakelow Weir and of realigning the river channel there and of certain additional channel improvement schemes in Burton.

    Boiling Water Reactor
    Mr. Wingfield Digbyasked the Parliamentary Secretary for Science what plans he has for the building of an experimental boiling water reactor of a type suitable for installing in ships.
    Mr. Denzil Freeth: I am informed by the Atomic Energy Authority that it has no present plans for building an experimental boiling water reactor, but that an advanced design is under study.
    Mr. Digby: Will not the result be to put us further and further behind the Americans, since the amount spent on research is so very little?
    Mr. Freeth: I do not think so. As my hon. Friend will recall, in the Adjournment debate which we had on this subject before Christmas, it was stated that the Atomic Energy Authority is investigating the possibilities of four major reactor systems. As for the boiling water reactor system, it is the Authority's opinion that the existing designs afford no economic incentive to proceed with the system. That is why it is making further design studies.

    Traffic Signals (Constant Flow System)
    Mr. Wadeasked the Parliamentary Secretary for Science what progress has been made in the research into the Turner system for constant flow traffic signals; and what facilities have been provided for a pilot scheme for testing the system.
    Mr. Denzil Freeth: It is expected that a pilot scheme for this or a similar system will be tested later in the year on the Road Research Laboratory's research track at Crowthorne.
    Mr. Wade: While I am glad to hear that reply, may I ask the Minister if he would agree that in built-up areas where traffic signals are in operation, the rate of progress is appallingly slow, and that this is becoming an increasingly serious problem, while being very exasperating to motorists? Would he agree that any system which can be devised whereby the rate of the traffic flow can be increased would be a valuable contribution to the traffic problem?
    Mr. Freeth: Yes, Sir. That is why the Road Research Laboratory is testing a pilot scheme later this year.

    Sea Water (Distillation)
    Mr. Grimondasked the Parliamentary Secretary for Science what investigations have been, or are being, made into the distillation of sea water for industrial and domestic purposes in this country.
    Mr. Denzil Freeth: The distillation of sea water is an established industrial process, and British-made equipment is among the best in the world. Compared with normal sources of supply in Western Europe, however, distilled water is expensive, and any extensive use for industrial and domestic purposes in this
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    country is unlikely, except in very special circumstances where it would be economic.
    Mr. Grimond: While it may well appear that enough rain—and, indeed, snow—falls in this country to satisfy all needs, is it not the case that lack of water is becoming a limiting factor in town and country planning; and that if we store surface water it means further damage to various parts of the open country which people much appreciate? In those conditions, although I appreciate the expense, as we have this industry in the country, would it not be worth, perhaps, spending some money in trying to bring down the cost of producing distilled water from the sea?
    Mr. Freeth: The first part of the right hon. Gentleman's supplementary question is, of course, a matter for my right hon. Friend the Minister for Housing and Local Government. As to the second part, a considerable amount of research is being undertaken by industrial companies, and the right hon. Gentleman will no doubt have seen an article on the subject in one of this morning's national newspapers.

    Social Services (Research Council)
    Mrs. Hartasked the Parliamentary Secretary for Science, in view of the Minister's statement at the Imperial College of Science and Technology about the excessive neglect of the human sciences in this country, what plans he has for the immediate establishment of a social sciences research council.
    Mr. Denzil Freeth: My noble Friend is arranging to consult the Government Departments and research councils concerned and the University Grants Committee about the views of the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research on this subject, referred to in my reply to the hon. Lady's Question of 18th July, 1961, which my noble Friend has now received.
    Mrs. Hart: Is the Parliamentary Secretary for Science aware that at the moment there are many social scientists engaged in post-graudate research who are finding it very difficult to look ahead to see whether enough money will be forthcoming to continue the work? Is

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    not that a very serious situation, and only to be remedied by the early appointment of a human research council which would make money available to those people?
    Mr. Freeth: I would not agree that the only way in which one could have a substantial increase in research on the social sciences would be by the establishment of a further research council. Indeed, the hon. Lady will be aware that the amount of money given by the D.S.I.R. in one section of that field has nearly doubled in the last two years.
    Mr. Albu: Is not the hon. Gentleman aware of the serious danger of research projects in this field falling between the responsibility of the various councils—the Medical Research Council and the D.S.I.R., for instance—where there may not be specific industrial or medical content? Will he look at this matter again, as it is quite serious?
    Mr. Freeth: I would agree that there is that danger, and it is with that in mind that my noble Friend is arranging to consult all the organs of Government concerned, in order to get their advice.
    Mr. Hector Hughes: In particular, what is the hon. Gentleman's Department doing to replace the excellent work that was carried out by the Tory Research Association in Aberdeen, the administration of which was changed some years ago?
    Mr. Freeth: The answer is that the Tory Research Station is still in being, but does very little, if anything, in the way of social science research.

    Scottish Industry (Research and Development Contracts)
    Mr. Willisasked the Parliamentary Secretary for Science what steps he proposes to take to encourage greater participation by Scottish industry in research and development contracts.
    Mr. Denzil Freeth: The responsibility of my noble Friend is restricted to contracts for civil purposes. Successive annual reports of the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research have invited proposals from industry, and widespread Press publicity was given to the first civil development contract let last year. The Scottish establishments
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    of the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research are anxious to entertain any proposals which Scottish industry may wish to put forward.
    Mr. Willis: Has the Parliamentary Secretary considered the recommendations in the Toothill Report? In particular, has his Department given any consideration to the suggestion that powers should be given to the National Engineering Laboratory itself to place research and development contracts?
    Mr. Freeth: My noble Friend has asked the D.S.I.R. to let him have its views on the proposals in the Toothill Report. These he has not as yet received, but it is important to remember that a proposal for a development contract can come only from the individual firm that has the idea. So far, we have had only one tentative approach from a Scottish firm.
    Mr. Mitchison: Are we to understand that the hon. Gentleman and his noble Friend are concerned only with the suggestions of industry about development; and that they never themselves make any suggestion for the development of a promising project?
    Mr. Freeth: Certainly not, but unless the project starts off in the stations of the D.S.I.R., the D.S.I.R. naturally has to wait for a request for help from the firm in whose laboratories the project has originated.
    Mr. Rankin: Is not the Parliamentary Secretary aware that his right hon. Friend the Leader of the House told us in November that the Government were giving consideration to the proposals of the Toothill Report? Has nothing yet happened?
    Mr. Freeth: Yes, a great deal of consideration has been given to them.

    Nuclear Tests
    Mr. Emrys Hughesasked the Parliamentary Secretary for Science how many experts from his Department will be sent to study the experimental nuclear test explosions in Nevada and on Christmas Island.
    Mr. Denzil Freeth: About fifteen scientists and engineers from the Atomic Energy Authority will participate in the

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    British test in Nevada. No decision has yet been taken about holding tests at Christmas Island.
    Mr. Hughes: Can the hon. Gentleman give us any idea of what the cost will be? Are any of these scientists to be mathematicians as well? Is he aware that we have been told that this will cost a considerable sum of money? Can he give the House an approximate idea of what the taxpayer will pay for this experiment?
    Mr. Freeth: Of course, these fifteen scientists and engineers are, in any case, employed by the Atomic Energy Authority. I should like notice of the hon. Gentleman's question about the cost of their transport.
    Mr. Paget: Can the hon. Gentleman tell us whether the Nevada test is on Blue Water?
    Mr. Freeth: I do not think that I could tell the hon. and learned Gentleman anything about the actual details of the test.

    Underground Gas Storage (Winchester)
    Mr. Smithersasked the Parliamentary Secretary for Science what advice he received from the Geological Survey in connection with the projected storage of imported gas near and beneath the City of Winchester.
    Mr. Nabarroasked the Parliamentary Secretary for Science what investigations he has conducted, in conjunction with the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research and the Geological Survey, into the matter of water extrusion from rock of high porosity, and replacing the water with gas, for underground storage purposes, as projected under Winchester; whether he will publish all relevant data showing desirable safety measures; and whether he will make a statement on leakage, seepage, subsidence, and safety in relation to underground gas storage, in suitable form.
    Mr. Denzil Freeth: When the Geological Survey was first consulted by the Gas Council about this scheme, it advised that the Council should drill supplementary boreholes. This was done and, on the basis of the further results so obtained, the Geological
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    Survey has now advised—in relation to the underground geological structure, which is the Survey's primary concern in this case, and with respect to a smaller storage area than that originally proposed—that there should be no gas leakage or surface subsidence if specified precautions are taken.
    Mr. Smithers: Can my hon. Friend say whether the smaller structure referred to is the Crabwood structure, and can he enlarge at all upon the precautions? Further, will he put a copy of the report in the Library?
    Mr. Freeth: With regard to the last part of my hon. Friend's supplementary question, the advice that has been tendered to the Gas Council over this period is the property of the Gas Council to disclose as it thinks fit; it is purely advice tendered when asked for.
    As to the size of the more limited storage area, I should not like to commit myself to naming a particular area. It is somewhat smaller than the original area proposed. The six precautions that were suggested were, first, that the storage area should be more limited; second, that measures should be taken to ensure that the limits of the storage area should be controlled; third, that the Gas Council should undertake further physical studies of the lower greensand; fourth, that the pressures proposed for the insertion of the gas should not be exceeded; fifth, that adequate observation wells round the storage area should be continuously observed, and, sixth, that some of the works originally proposed by the Gas Council should be resited.
    Mr. Nabarro: Is my hon. Friend aware that there are large volumes of subterranean water beneath Winchester—notably, beneath the Cathedral, and other historic buildings—which, for more than a year and until quite recently, occupied the attention of a diver? As the extrusion of water from the porous rooks and its replacement by gas would inevitably lead to subsidence, implying a direct threat to the Cathedral building itself, could he not publish all the information furnished by the Geological Survey data for the guidance of hon. Members such as myself who are seeking to oppose this infamous Measure?
    Mr. Freeth: It would not be within the field of geological research for the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research and the Geological Survey to conduct experiments on the extrusion of water from high porosity rocks and replacing the water by gas, but if the various precautions I have mentioned were implemented that would, in the opinion of the Geological Survey, be adequate to safeguard local groundwater supplies. The publication of any advice tendered by the Survey is a matter to be decided by the promoters of the Bill, to whom it was tendered.

    Administration (Operational Research and Social Survey Methods)
    Mr. Albuasked the Parliamentary Secretary for Science what discussions he has had with Ministers of other departments about the use of operational research and social survey methods as aids to administration.
    Mr. Denzil Freeth: So far as operational research is concerned I have taken a personal interest in the functioning of the Industrial Operations Unit of D.S.I.R. and am satisfied with existing arrangements for inter-departmental liaison. The unit has recently cooperated with the Ministry of Health, the Royal Mint, and the War Department. Social survey methods are mainly employed by the Social Survey Division of the Central Office of Information which is the responsibility of my hon. Friend the Financial Secretary to the Treasury.
    Mr. Albu: Is the hon. Gentleman aware of the large extent of the criticism which has been made of his right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport both on account of the possible quality and the cost of his London traffic survey? In view of the large amount of expertness which exists in Government Departments, which he has just mentioned, and among British universities, does he not think that it would be a good idea to set up a committee to advise Government Departments on the use of these surveys in future?
    Mr. Freeth: I could not accept that criticism of my right hon. Friend. The hon. Member will appreciate that the Social Survey which engages in this type
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    of activity is the responsibility of the Treasury.
    Mrs. Hart: Is not the hon. Gentleman aware that so long as we have a Ministry which is representing itself as being responsible for science, it clearly has a duty to see that scientific method is employed in every kind of Government work well, carefully and economically? Therefore, has he not a duty to render advice to the Minister of Transport?
    Mr. Freeth: My right hon. Friend and my noble Friend work closely together in all such matters and I could not accept the criticisms of my right hon. Friend.

    Research Associations
    Sir H. Legge-Bourkeasked the Parliamentary Secretary for Science which research associations he has visited since his appointment; and whether he will make a statement on the nature of their work and the policy of Her Majesty's Government towards them.
    Mr. Denzil Freeth: I have so far visited the twenty-four research associations named in the list which, with permission, I will circulate with the OFFICIAL REPORT. AS regards the nature of their work and the Government's policy towards them, I do not wish to anticipate the results of the review which, as my noble Friend announced on 15th November in another place, the Chairman of the D.S.I.R. Council has been asked to undertake.
    Sir H. Legge-Bourke: While congratulating my hon. Friend on the immense vigour and enthusiasm which he has brought to bear upon this matter—
    An Hon. Member: Keep on the Prime Minister.
    Mr. Nabarro: The P.P.S.s' bench is lower down.
    Sir H. Legge-Bourke:—may I ask him whether he is doing all he can to assist research organisations to get the industries concerned to adopt some of their latest developments, which, if put into operation, could possibly save many millions of pounds?
    Mr. Freeth: I certainly agree with my hon. Friend that if the results of the research associations were adopted more

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    fully by British industry, costs in industry could be substantially reduced. I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his kind remarks.
    Following is the information:

    British Baking Industries Research Association

    British Boot. Shoe and Allied Trades Research Association.

    British Electrical and Allied Industries Research Association.

    Files Research Council.

    Research Association of British Flour Millers

    British Food Manufacturing Industries Research Association.

    Furniture Industry Research Association.

    British Gelatine and Glue Research Association.

    Heating and Ventilating Research Association.

    Hosiery and Allied Trades Research Association.

    British Iron and Steel Research Association.

    British Jute Trade Research Association.

    Lace Research Association.

    British Launderers' Research Association.

    British Leather Manufacturers' Research Association.

    Linen Industry Research Association.

    British Non-Ferrous Metals Research Association.

    Research Association of British Paint, Colour and Varnish Manufacturers.

    Printing, Packaging and Allied Trades Research Association.

    Production Engineering Research Association of Great Britain.

    British Scientific Instrument Research Association.

    Spring Manufacturers' Research Association.

    British Steel Castings Research Association.

    Wool Industries Research Association.

    Mr. J. H. Osbornasked the Parliamentary Secretary for Science how many research projects in research associations are at present being sponsored by the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research; and what is their cost.
    Mr. Denzil Freeth: One, Sir, at a cost of £10,000 a year.
    Mr. Osborn: Does my hon. Friend consider that enough is spent in this way? What are his proposals for the future?
    Mr. Freeth: I very much hope that we shall be able to increase the number of such sponsored projects, but D.S.I.R.'s main contribution to research associations is in the form of the grants it makes to supplement industrial incomes. I think that the Answer I originally gave could be misleading, because the research associations carry out a large number of research and development projects for other Departments of the Government.

    European Space Research Organisation
    Sir H. Legge-Bourkeasked the Parliamentary Secretary for Science whether he will make a statement on the progress made by Her Majesty's Government's representatives at the meetings during February of the Preparatory Commission of the European Space Research Organisation.
    Mr. Denzil Freeth: I am happy to state that, at its meeting in Paris last week, the Preparatory Commission reached agreement on the proposals which will now be drafted in final form for submission to the member Governments. These proposals will be considered at an inter-governmental meeting in about two months' time.
    Sir H. Legge-Bourke: While welcoming the progress which has been made, may I ask my hon. Friend whether he can assure us that the proportion of the finance which the United Kingdom has to bear will be fair and that that proportion will not result in any reduction of the amount of grant allowed to D.S.I.R. for its purposes in this country?
    Mr. Freeth: As I understand the proposals which the Preparatory Commission is likely to submit to member Governments, the United Kingdom's contribution would appear to be generally in line with that which we contribute to similar organisations. I do not think that this country joining E.S.R.O. would have any effect on the amount of money which D.S.I.R. has for its own activities.
    Mr. Mitchison: In plain English, what will it cost?
    Mr. Freeth: I cannot announce a firm figure until the proposals are received from the Preparatory Commission.
    Mr. J. T. Price: The Question refers to a
    "statement on the progress made by Her Majesty's Government's representatives at the meetings during February of the Preparatory Commission of the European Space Research Organisation."
    Is Her Majesty's Astronomer Royal a member of that delegation? He said on a famous occasion—and it has never been denied—that he regarded space research as "all bunk"—and I happen

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    to agree with him. Is he a member of the team?
    Mr. Freeth: It would be rather hard to envisage such a situation, if the Astronomer Royal has the views ascribed to him by the hon. Member, as space research is a matter upon which there is some controversy.
    Mr. M. Foot: As Parliamentary Secretary for Science, can the hon. Member suggest to his hon. and gallant Friend the Member for the Isle of Ely (Sir H. Legge-Bourke) that the only means of locomotion by which he might restore himself to favour with his party is crawling on his hands and knees?

    Physicists (Emigration)
    Mr. Wainwrightasked the Parliamentary Secretary for Science if he will state the numbers of senior physicists of British origin who have left the United Kingdom to take up senior appointments in the United States of America during the last ten years.
    Mr. Denzil Freeth: I would refer the hon. Member to my reply to the hon. Member for Dartford (Mr. Sydney Irving) on 18th July and to the hon. Member for Workington (Mr. Peart) on 5th December, 1961.
    Mr. Wainwright: Is the hon. Gentleman quite satisfied that we are not losing too many senior physicists to the United States of America? What is his Department doing to make certain that these important persons are encouraged to stay in this country?
    Mr. Freeth: There are two distinct though related problems here. First, there is a problem of why people go to America either for a post-graduate degree or after getting a post-graduate degree, and whether that is a good thing. I am certain that they should not be stopped because they get a wider experience. The second question is whether they come back here to give us the fruits of their enlarged experience. To this end the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research and the Atomic Energy Authority are now running a joint programme of interviews in Canada and America and are offering research fellowships to such as are willing to return.
    Mr. Mitchison: Is the hon. Gentleman taking any steps to find out what is happening in this matter, which may be rather important?
    Mr. Freeth: Yes. I hope that the Social Survey of the Central Office of Information, which is now taking a series of sample interviews at airports asking people why they are going abroad, will produce some more definite information about the motives which lead to emigration.

    Space Research
    Mr. Wainwrightasked the Parliamentary Secretary for Science if he will state the number of scientific staff engaged in space research in this country in 1960 and 1961, and the numbers at the latest convenient date.
    Mr. Denzil Freeth: The following figures relate to the programme of scientific space research for which my noble friend is responsible. Staff with university degrees or equivalent professional qualifications employed at universities and supported by grants made under the space research programme numbered 17 in the early part of 1960, 27 in January, 1961, and 25 in January, 1962. These were in all cases supervised, and in many cases assisted, by staff supported from university funds, but the numbers involved are not readily available. Similarly qualified staff in Government Departments engaged on similar experiments or supporting work, on other experiments to be conducted in rockets or satellites, or on the observation and tracking of satellites numbered, on the same dates, 20, 32 and 40. Some equipment for these experiments has been produced in industry, but information is not available as to the number of scientifically qualified staff concerned.
    Mr. Wainwright: I am grateful to the Parliamentary Secretary for such a long reply. Is he quite satisfied that the Government are taking sufficient interest in space research? Is he sure that if this country joined the Common Market it would be able to make a useful contribution to the E.S.R.O. in the Common Market area?
    Mr. Freeth: I am perfectly certain that if this country signs the E.S.R.O.

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    Convention, which I hope it will be possible for us to do, we shall make a worthy contribution to that organisation, which would be completely independent of whether or not we joined the Common Market.

    Diesel-Powered Road Vehicles (Fumes)
    Mr. Nabarroasked the Parliamentary Secretary for Science what progress has now been made by his department and the Department of Scientific and industrial Research in developing means of decolorising and decontaminating noxious dark fumes emitted from the exhausts of diesel oil-powered road vehicles; and whether he will make a statement.
    Mr. Denzil Freeth: The Warren Spring Laboratory of the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research has not found any suitable means of removing smoke from the exhausts of diesel-powered vehicles, but it will examine any device for this purpose that comes to its notice. The real remedy lies in correct maintenance and operation of engines.
    Mr. Nabarro: Have not hon. Members in all parts of the House continuously expressed apprehension in recent years about the growing gravity of the emission of asphyxiating fumes from diesel oil-powered road vehicles? As D.S.I.R. and other agencies have apparently applied themselves to this problem entirely without success for the last few years, whereas foreign countries are making progress, cannot my hon. Friend say what further steps his Ministry has in mind?
    Mr. Freeth: I hope that my hon. Friend will write and tell me about the progress he asserts is being made in foreign countries. I draw his attention to the Regulations recently made by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport about the use of the excess fuel device, which should have an effect in reducing the emission of dark diesel smoke, especially on hills.
    Mr. J. T. Price: The House readily appreciates the technical difficulties involved in finding a solution to this
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    problem. Does the Parliamentary Secretary appreciate that powers are given under the Motor Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations to impose penalties on people who cause dark fumes to be emitted from vehicles? Will he consult his right hon. Friend with a view to ensuring that the powers already given by Parliament to abate this nuisance are enforced more readily than they are at present?
    Mr. Speaker: No. That is not for this Minister.

    National Reference Library of Science and Invention
    Mr. Albuasked the Parliamentary Secretary for Science whether he has reconsidered the plans for the National Reference Library of Science and Invention.
    Mr. Denzil Freeth: The Departments concerned are now well advanced with the consideration of plans for the Library and my noble Friend is taking a close interest in the matter.
    Mr. Albu: Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that there is very great anxiety that already the scale of the plans for the Library and also for the Patent Office itself are quite inadequate in view of the growing need? Will he have the matter examined again very seriously?
    Mr. Freeth: About a year ago we had an Adjournment debate on this subject. I do not think I can add anything very constructive to what was said in that debate.

    D.S.I.R. (Economic Section)
    Mr. de Ferrantiasked the Parliamentary Secretary for Science what are the plans of the Economic Section of the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research for its future programme.
    Mr. Denzil Freeth: The future programme of the Economics Section in the headquarters office of the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research is currently under discussion.
    Mr. de Ferranti: The reports which the Economic Section has already published have, although they are very controversial, been on balance extremely

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    valuable. Will my hon. Friend urge that this good work should be continued?
    Mr. Freeth: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his kind remarks about the work of the Economic Section, which I think is of a very high standard. We certainly want the work of the Section to go on and expand.
    Mr. Mitchison: Will the hon. Gentleman take an early opportunity to make a statement when this consideration is completed?
    Mr. Freeth: I will certainly consider that.

    Students, Scotland (Science Honours Degrees)
    Mr. W. Hamiltonasked the Parliamentary Secretary for Science how many students graduated with science honours degrees in Scotland in the last academic year; how many have subsequently obtained employment in Scotland; and how many have emigrated.
    Mr. Denzil Freeth: I am informed that 374 students graduated in Scotland with honours degrees in pure science and 105 with honours degrees in technology in the year 1959–60. Figures for the year 1960–61 are not available, nor are figures for subsequent employment in Scotland. On emigration, I would refer the hon. Member to an Answer today to the hon. Member for Dearne Valley (Mr. Wain-wright).
    Mr. Hamilton: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there is a good deal of concern in Scotland about the proportion of graduate honours degree scientists, particularly those who are born in Scotland, who subsequently leave? The proportion is about 60 per cent. Is the hon. Gentleman aware that we are naturally very gravely concerned about this? Can he give the House much more detail about this problem so that we may the better tackle its solution?
    Mr. Freeth: Detailed figures are available from private sources in Glasgow, but collecting figures for subsequent employment of science and technology graduates would be a question for my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour.

    Minister's Office (Staff)
    Mr. Mitchisonasked the Parliamentary Secretary for Science whether it is now proposed to include in the staff of his Office any scientific officer above the grade of a prinicpal scientific officer; and whether he is satisfied that sufficient scientific knowledge is available in his office to enable a proper evaluation to be made of the advice received from the councils for which his Office is responsible.
    Mr. Denzil Freeth: It is the function of the various Research Councils, the Atomic Energy Authority, the Advisory Council on Scientific Policy and other advisory bodies, to give properly evaluated scientific advice, and they are equipped to do so.
    Mr. Mitchison: Are we to understand that the hon. Gentleman's Office has no responsibility whatever for weighing up advice or acting on it? If it has, is it in a position to do it with no scientific officer above the comparatively junior grade, with all respect to them, of principal scientific officer?
    Mr. Freeth: No. I do not think that it is the function of my noble Friend's Office to evaluate scientific advice scientifically. Its function is to assist in the consideration of the advice by the Government and the implementation of it where this affects the interests of other Government Departments or has international or political aspects for which my noble Friend is responsible.
    Mr. Mitchison: What happens when the advice conflicts, as it often does?
    Mr. Freeth: In such cases my noble Friend has to seek the particular sources of information appropriate to the occasion and test them the one against the other. In certain suitable circumstances he has not hesitated to do so.
    Mr. Driberg: Will the Parliamentary Secretary explain what his last answer means if it does not mean evaluation?
    Mr. Freeth: It does not mean evaluating scientifically, because if we had an Office of the Minister for Science which was entirely composed of high-grade scientists it would either completely duplicate the advice given by the scientific advisers or alternatively would be of no value.

    Manufacturing Industry (Research)
    Mr. J. H. Osbornasked the Parliamentary Secretary for Science whether he has read the report of the Federation of British Industries on Industrial Research in Manufacturing Industry, a copy of which has been sent to him; and what action he is taking in the matter.
    Mr. Denzil Freeth: Yes, Sir. I have read this report with interest, and it is being further studied both in my Office and by D.S.I.R. My noble Friend welcomes the interest shown by the Federation of British Industries in industrial research in manufacturing industry, and he joined in the discussion of the report at a recent meeting of the National Production Advisory Council for Industry.
    Mr. Osborn: Has my hon. Friend noted that much of this research is carried out in certain specific industries and by larger firms? Does he consider that the balance is correct? If not, what does he intend to do to change it?
    Mr. Freeth: I noticed with particular interest the sections of the report dealing with the relatively few small firms which belong to even one research association. The research associations are at present doing their best, some of them with special assistance grants from D.S.I.R., to increase the number of their members and improve liaison between the laboratory and the existing members.

    Scientific and Research Stations (Aberdeen)
    Mr. Hector Hughesasked the Parliamentary Secretary for Science if he will make a detailed statement of the changes in the administration and work of the scientific and research stations in Aberdeen under his authority during the last twelve months, and of the further changes which he has in view; and, having regard to the success which has attended those stations until now, why he proposes to make these changes.
    Mr. Denzil Freeth: The only research station in Aberdeen directly financed by any of the Research Councils, for which my noble Friend is responsible, is the Torry Research Station of the D.S.I.R. In addition, the Medical Research Council supports an Obstetric Medicine
    1122
    Research Unit at the University of Aberdeen Medical School. In the case of the Rowett Research Institute and the Macaulay Institute of Soil Research, the Agricultural Research Council advises on the research programmes and on scientific staffs and facilities, though the finance is provided by the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries for Scotland. I am not aware of any changes in the last twelve months, nor of any specific changes in view, in the administration and work of these establishments, other than those which occur with the normal development of their scientific programmes.
    Mr. Hughes: Has not the hon. Gentleman's Department within the last two years taken steps to diminish and divert some of the very useful work which has been undertaken by the Torry Research Station? Is not that a step in the wrong direction? Will he reverse it and assist the research stations to increase their usefulness, their constructive work, and their staff?
    Mr. Freeth: The work of nearly all the stations of D.S.I.R. is increasing annually. I am not aware of any diminution in the effort of the Torry Research Station, although from time to time it may be necessary to alter the volume of work between one station and another, for example, between Torry and the subsidiary fish laboratory at Hull.

    Noise
    Mr. C. Johnsonasked the Parliamentary Secretary for Science what research is being conducted into noise and its modification, with particular reference to the noise from jet aeroplanes; what progress is being made in such research; and whether he will make a report available.
    Mr. Skeffingtonasked the Parliamentary Secretary for Science what research is being carried out in connection with noise, and in particular with noise from jet aircraft.
    Mr. Denzil Freeth: In establishments for which my noble Friend is responsible, research is going on at the National Physical Laboratory, on noise in industry from motor vehicles and from aircraft including jet aircraft; at

    1123
    the Building Research Station, on noise in buildings, and at the National Engineering Laboratory, on noise from machines. Extensive experiments have been made on a subjective assessment of motor vehicle and aircraft noise and surveys on noise in communities and in industry are in progress. The Committee on the Problem of Noise, under the Chairmanship of Sir Alan Wilson, appointed by my noble Friend, will report in due course.
    Mr. Johnson: In view of increasing public awareness of the part played by noise in adding to the stresses and strains of life, and the need to treat this as a major problem, is the Parliamentary Secretary satisfied with the progress which is being made, and will he undertake that his Ministry will report to the House from time to time on the progress being made?
    Mr. Freeth: We are never satisfied that sufficient progress is ever made in any field. We are merely spurred on to new efforts. The Wilson Committee has been set up specifically to review the whole matter and to make specific suggestions and I hope that we shall have its Report before the end of the year.
    Sir H. d'Avigdor-Goldsmid: Does my hon. Friend know of any scientific law which indicates that the length of a supplementary reply by a Minister should be in inverse ratio to his height?
    Mr. Speaker: Order. I do not think that that arises from noise and its modification.
    Mr. Mitchison: Ought not there to be a little more co-ordination in this matter? I see that the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Aviation spent the night of Wednesday, 8th November, in the general manager's flat on the second floor of the Queen's Building at London Airport to study noise. Ought not the Parliamentary Secretary to go there, too, quite soon?
    Mr. Freeth: I should have thought that one night by one member of the Government was sufficient in one year.

    Annual Reports
    Mr. Mitchisonasked the Parliamentary Secretary for Sicence, in view of the lack of public information about the
    1124
    activities of his Department as distinct from those of the advisory and other councils for which his Department is responsible, if he will publish a report of his Department's activities since its inauguration; and if he will give an assurance that similar reports will be published annually in future.
    Mr. Denzil Freeth: In view of the numerous annual and other reports by the bodies for which he is responsible, including the Advisory Council on Scientific Policy, my noble Friend does not consider that a separate annual report covering the activities of his Office would at present be justified, but this and other methods of making its activities known will be kept under consideration.
    Mr. Mitchison: Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that, judging by his Answers, all he appears to do is to act on advice from somebody or another, and indeed often not to act? No one knows what his Office is doing. Is it not advisable that it should enlighten the public by producing a report showing that it is not merely a post office or the recipient of advice from councils and other Government Departments?
    Mr. Freeth: No, Sir. I think that the general impression in the scientific world and in industry is that our Office is having a steadily increasing effect.

  LOCAL GOVERNMENT

    Coastal Foreshore
    Mr. Thorpeasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs what is the extent of coastal foreshore still in private hands; and whether he will now take such property into public ownership for the benefit of the community as a whole.
    The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Housing and Local Government (Mr. Geoffrey Rippon): The extent of the coastal foreshore in private hands is unknown. My right hon. Friend sees no need for nationalisation. The public already has access to much of the foreshore, and local planning authorities have powers to secure public access for open-air recreation.
    Mr. Thorpe: Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that the nature of that

    1125
    reply, its content, and brevity, will come as no surprise? Is he further aware that there are still many stretches of coastal foreshore which are privately owned, and from which the public are excluded? Is he also aware that at this moment there is an 850-acre strip of some of the finest coastal scenery in this country which the National Trust is trying to buy? Does he not think that in 1962 it is an anachronism that coastal foreshore should be privately owned?
    Mr. Rippon: My reply was, I hope, brief but clear. Local planning authorities have adequate powers to deal with these matters.
    Mr. C. Hughes: Would not the Joint Parliamentary Secretary consider it desirable to give limited powers to local authorities to acquire stretches of coastal foreshore in some instances where they might add to local amenities?
    Mr. Rippon: Local authorities have powers under the 1949 Act.
    Mr. Denis Howell: Is it not a matter of public concern not only that so much of the foreshore is not available to the public, but that half of that which is is in such a filthy and polluted condition as to be a scandal? What is the Minister doing about it?
    Mr. Rippon: Pollution is a matter for the Ministry of Transport.

  SCOTLAND (DEVELOPMENT OF INDUSTRY)
  Mr. Dempseyasked the Prime Minister if he will appoint to the Scottish Office a Minister whose sole responsibility will be the development of industry with a view to securing full employment for the people of Scotland.
  The Prime Minister (Mr. Harold Macmillan): No, Sir. In 1954 the Royal Commission on Scottish Affairs recommended against a division of the responsibilities at present exercised throughout Great Britain by the President of the Board of Trade. The hon. Member will have noticed that the recent Toothill Committee reached the same conclusion.
  Mr. Dempsey: Does not the Prime Minister agree that to some extent, because of the Departmental responsibilities
  1126
  of Scottish Ministers for other basic services in that part of the country, employment is not receiving the attention it warrants? Is not this instanced by the fact that Scotland, with 10 per cent. of the general population of the United Kingdom, has 20 per cent. of the unemployment? Will not the Prime Minister agree that this project is worthy of some further consideration?
  The Prime Minister: No, Sir. We are discussing now the organisation of Departments, and I feel that the Royal Commission and the recent Toothill Report having reached the conclusion not to try to divide the responsibilities of the Board of Trade, it would be very unwise if the Government were to take a different view.
  Mr. Longden: Will my right hon. Friend please point out that there are now no fewer than seven able-bodied full-time Ministers in charge of 5 million people in Scotland, which is four more than are at present considered necessary to look after the whole of the rest of the Colonial Empire put together?
  The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir, but the Scottish people are very important.

  No. 10, DOWNING STREET
  Mr. E. Taylorasked the Prime Minister what communications he has received regarding the televising of the interior of No. 10, Downing Street, on the completion of its repair.
  The Prime Minister: None, Sir. But I will consider in what way the public interest in this historic house can best be met.
  Mr. Taylor: Is my right hon. Friend aware that no one, probably not even the right hon. Gentlemen on the Front Bench opposite, would object to the expense of this tremendous undertaking? Right hon. Gentlemen opposite probably have hopes of getting there some day. Is not my right hon. Friend aware that in these days of consumer protection taxpayers are anxious to know whether their money is being spent in the best way? Lastly, does my right hon. Friend agree that it would be a fine thing for people to go to No. 10, and perhaps my right hon. Friend could act as guide?
  The Prime Minister: I have been considering various suggestions, and I will certainly try to work out something before the house is reoccupied. There are difficulties, of course, which are obvious, about having it on view for any length of time. I think that television would be the best possible method, but I will consider that nearer the time.
  Mr. Gaitskell: Can the Prime Minister say when the repairs are likely to be completed?
  The Prime Minister: I think that fresh difficulties have been found with the foundations, not so much with No. 10, but with the whole block, which, as the right hon. Gentleman knows, suffered severely from the bombing.

  EXPORTS
  Mr. Ginsburgasked the Prime Minister if he will appoint a Minister for Exports.
  The Prime Minister: No, Sir. The President of the Board of Trade has primary responsibility for the promotion of exports, and he is assisted by a Minister of State who gives special attention to this and to the problems of overseas trade generally.
  Mr. Ginsburg: But would not the Prime Minister agree that the failure of exports to rise adequately is the greatest of the Government's many failings in the economic field? Would not he at least have an immediate official inquiry into our export arrangements, and will he remember that the last time this matter was inquired into was at the time of the MacMillan Committee in 1930?
  The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir; but these were inquiries into various methods of helping exports, and we have done, and are doing a great deal. This is a question of the organisation of Government, and I repeat that I do not think that the proposal is a valuable one.
  Sir C. Osborne: Does not my right hon. Friend agree that the appointment of another Minister will not help to sell British goods abroad if they are too dear and the quality is not good enough, and that he has to get it over to the
  1128
  nation that we have to keep our quality up and prices down to increase exports?
  The Prime Minister: The economic side is one aspect, and then there is the promotion side. On the latter, which I think the hon. Gentleman chiefly has in mind, I think that the present organisation is working well.

  MR. KHRUSHCHEV (LETTERS)
  Mr. A. Hendersonasked the Prime Minister whether he will make a statement on Mr. Khrushchev's reply to the British and United States letters of 14th February.
  Mr. Fletcherasked the Prime Minister what reply he has now received to his letter to Mr. Khrushchev of 14th February.
  The Prime Minister: Hon. Members will now have seen Mr. Khrushchev's message of 21st February and my reply of 26th February. I have at present nothing to add to the latter.
  Mr. Henderson: May I ask the Prime Minister whether we are to take it that, in his view, a Foreign Ministers' meeting is essential to the holding of any Summit Conference? Is it also his view that at any possible Summit Conference the numbers should be restricted to much fewer than eighteen—the number of Governments represented at the Disarmament Conference?
  The Prime Minister: I do not really want to add or to detract from the letter which I wrote very carefully. What I said there was that two situations might arise, in my view, in which I thought that the presence of Heads of Governments might be fruitful. The first would be if the Conference were making satisfactory and definite progress and we could make a further effort to consolidate the progress made, and get on further. The second would be if there were certain major and clear points of disagreement which had emerged and made a kind of deadlock which Heads of Governments might help to solve. I think that this approach would be more practical than all the eighteen Heads of Governments arriving at the beginning of the Conference. I would rather that first it got under way.
  Mr. Fletcher: Will the right hon. Gentleman say whether in these exchanges with Mr. Khrushchev he expressed his own appreciation of what is technically desirable, or merely acquiesced in a view put forward by the United States?
  The Prime Minister: If it is necessary for me to answer that question, I would say that I consult the President, as is proper, and I make a reply based on my own judgment of what is the duty of Her Majesty's Government.
  Mr. Gaitskell: I recognise the obvious objections to the proposed eighteen-Power Heads of State meetings. Would the Prime Minister bear in mind the possibility of proposing a smaller meeting, perhaps between three, or even four or five. Heads of States so that the ice might be broken before the disarmament talks begin?
  The Prime Minister: That is another question, but I have made this reply which I hope that the House will feel was both clear and courteous and intended to be in a spirit not of argumentation and propaganda but of trying to arrive at a practical result. I shall now await the further reply which I hope that we may get from the Chairman of the Soviet Republic.

  SHIPPING AND SHIPBUILDING
  Mr. Rankinasked the Prime Minister if he will constitute a Ministry responsible for shipping and shipbuilding.
  The Prime Minister: No, Sir. The Minister of Transport is already responsible for shipping and shipbuilding.
  Mr. Rankin: I thought that the third attempt might have been a little more lucky. Is it not the case that the Prime Minister recognised the serious state of this industry on the eve of the last election and made a certain promise? Is he aware that now we are approaching the eve of the next election and that nothing has yet materialised? Is he further aware that in the Clydeside yards the fall in shipping tonnage at the end of this year will be 100,000 gross tons unless the situation improves? On reflection, does not the right hon.
  1130
  Gentleman think that it would be better to put these two industries under the control of one senior Minister rather than leave them in the hands of a Minister who already has sufficient to do in connection with roads and railways?
  The Prime Minister: I have, of course, considered this matter. These industries originally were under the supervision of the Admiralty. If seemed to me more practical to have them under a Minister who would then be in charge of transport, and supervise transport by sea, by road and by rail. I have since arranged for an additional Parliamentary Secretary to be appointed to deal specially with shipping and shipbuilding. Again, this is a matter of organisation and I think, subject to some change of view, that this is the best organisation.
  Sir J. Duncan: Would not my right hon. Friend agree that this Question and Questions Nos. 1 and 3 reveal the almost pathetic confidence of hon. Members opposite in Her Majesty's Ministers? Does not he think that these Questions from back bench Members opposite reveal a lack of confidence in the members of their own Front Bench?
  Mr. Rankin: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Is it in order for an individual who represents an industry that is over-subsidised to make a statement of that nature?
  Mr. Speaker: That is not a point of order.

  CIVIL DEFENCE
  Mr. Emrys Hughesasked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the Government's decision, stated in paragraph 50 of the Defence White Paper, to embark upon a scheme of dispersal of mothers and children and other people in priority classes from major centres in the event of nuclear war, he will now consider appointing a Minister of Civil Defence.
  The Prime Minister: No, Sir.
  Mr. Hughes: Does not the Prime Minister agree that the dispersal of large sections of the population to heaven knows what safe places in this country is such a gigantic operation that no Minister in the present Government

  1131
  could undertake it? Is not it time that we had a Minister to protect the civil population against the "suicide club" known as the present Cabinet?
  The Prime Minister: This, again, is a matter of a suggested change of organisation. I think, in making the plans which have to be made, that it is better to use the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs in England and Wales, who is in touch in the ordinary way in his Department with local authorities who have to participate in any such plans, and the Secretary of State for Scotland who is in touch with local authorities day-by-day. This is a suggested change in that organisation by taking the matter out of the hands of those Ministers and putting it into the hands of another Minister. From my experience, such as it is, I do not think that that would make the work easier. I think that it would make the work more difficult.

  NUCLEAR TESTS
  Mr. Rankinasked the Prime Minister what reply he has sent to the petition presented to him by Daphne H. English and others on behalf of 42,000 women signatories seeking, among other things, that urgent steps be taken to stop the testing of nuclear weapons in order to ease the international situation.
  Mr. P. Noel-Bakerasked the Prime Minister whether he has today received a petition signed by 42,000 women in favour of multilateral nuclear and conventional disarmament under international inspection and control; and what reply he is making.
  Mrs. Butlerasked the Prime Miinster what reply he is sending to the petition signed by more than 42,000 women which has been presented to him asking him to take urgent steps to secure agreement on stopping nuclear weapon tests.
  The Prime Minister: I received the petition to which these Questions refer yesterday. I am considering my reply.
  Mr. Rankin: When considering that reply, will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that this petition comes from a number of people who do not belong to any organised group? Does he
  1132
  realise that it represents a view, held by a growing number of people in this country and also in America, that the testing of nuclear weapons is more likely to lead to war than to peace?
  The Prime Minister: I am studying the terms of this petition. I think that it would be courteous for me to study them carefully before writing a reply. My first reaction, from a rather cursory reading of it, was that its purpose was very much in line with Government policy and the recent initiative which President Kennedy and I had taken about disarmament, and was really saying something very much on the lines of the statement which I made myself in the House of Commons and which commanded certain support from both sides of the House.
  Mrs. Butler: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this petition, like a similar one in my constituency, which has already collected 5,000 signatures without the backing of any organisation or publicity, expresses the moral revulsion of women against nuclear tests, and a growing demand for a reconsideration of policies based on prestige and pride? Can the Prime Minister say what reappraisal he is making of British nuclear tests and other aspects of defence and foreign policy?
  The Prime Minister: I have replied that I will study this petition, and I will do my best to make a reply to it. I added that, from a cursory reading, it appears to have elements in it which were not taking the most extreme view, but trying to marry the point of view of those of us who feel that we must maintain our defences but who are passionately anxious to find some way out of what President Kennedy and I called this sterile contest.
  Mr. Rankin: May we take it that one of the elements in the petition of which the Prime Minister approves is the ending of the present proposed British nuclear tests?
  The Prime Minister: I do not think I should like to take the matter into further detail. I shall read carefully the precise formulation of this petition and shall do my best to send a courteous and. I hope, a constructive reply.
  Mr. P. Noel-Baker: Will the Prime Minister note that many of us on this side of the House regard this remarkable petition as a spontaneous and massive support for multilateral disarmament?
  The Prime Minister: I think that what I have said about it recognises the degree of common purpose that many of us have, and I think it is very much the same as what was expressed, as I saw in the Press yesterday, by the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition. He has latterly realised how deeply the President and I feel in this dilemma about the absolute need to maintain ourselves against being caught at a disadvantage and yet the tremendous longing of the world to find some way out of the terrible problem with which we are all confronted.
  Mr. Gaitskell: Would not the Prime Minister consider it worth while being a little more precise on this matter? Would he not be prepared to say that, even at this late hour, after the Russian tests have taken place and after the various unfortunate refusals of the Soviet Government to accept what the West regards as adequate controls, nevertheless if we could now get a firm, cast-iron agreement to have no more tests of any kind he, the Prime Minister, would urge the American Government to accept it?
  The Prime Minister: That is a little different from what I observed in the newspaper that the right hon. Gentleman had said. We spent three years trying to get this, and I shall go on trying as long as there is any hope of getting it.
  Mr. Gaitskell: Is the Prime Minister aware that, on the contrary, that is exactly what I said to the Press yesterday, that it was indeed my belief that if at this moment a firm agreement could be negotiated that there would be no more tests on either side, despite the fact that the Russians have made these tests the Americans would nevertheless be prepared to make such an agreement? What I am asking the Prime Minister to do is to give as his opinion that that is the right course to pursue.
  The Prime Minister: Of course, if an agreement can be negotiated and we all
  1134
  accept that there will be no more tests, certainly as far as we are concerned there will not be any more tests.

QUESTIONS TO MINISTERS (STANDING ORDER No. 8)
Mr. W. Yates: May I raise a point of order? I will make it as short as I can. I wish to refer to Standing Order No. 8, which relates to Questions in the House and how we deal with them. In the 16th Edition of Erskine May, page 355, chapter XVII, there is laid down the way in which Questions will be dealt with in the House and your competence, Mr. Speaker, in the way in which you accept them. It says:
"The Speaker's responsibility in regard to questions is limited to their compliance with the rules of the House. Responsibility in other respects rests with the Member who proposes to ask the question (s)."
When one turns to Standing Order No. 8, one finds the normal rules for putting down Questions for Written or for Oral answer laid down.
On the next page of Erskine May, which deals with Questions by Private Notice, it says that we have to ask you, Sir, whether you will accept the Question. Thereafter you rule whether you will accept the Question or not and the initiative comes from the Member concerned.
However, there has been a practice in the House of Ministers of the Government on their own initiative saying, "With permission, Mr. Speaker," and deciding to answer Question No. 44, 46 or 48 as the Minister so feels inclined. The attention of the House was drawn to the matter by the right hon. Member for Woodford (Sir W. Churchill) on 28th June, 1951, when he asked:
"On a point of order. If Questions are to be selected which have not been reached in the ordinary course, might not some consideration be given to Question No. 45 …?"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 28th June, 1951: Vol. 489. c. 1578.]
to which he wanted an answer. I think that was a perfectly reasonable request, and I want an answer to Question No. 55.
Mr. Speaker: Order. I do not think I need detain the hon. Member further. The rule has been frequently stated. For the moment, I choose what was said

1135
by my predecessor on 7th May, 1951, when an hon. Member in a similar endeavour raised this matter and Mr. Speaker ruled:
"If a Minister wishes to answer a Question because he, and not other people, thinks it is of public importance, then he can ask leave to do so, and I can give my permission; but otherwise it has nothing to do with me at all."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 7th May, 1951; Vol. 487, c. 1588.]
In regard to Question No. 55, it is an "otherwise".
Mr. Yates: Further to that point of order, it is clear, then, that the initiative comes from the Executive, that is, from the Government Front Bench, who decide on any question they would like to answer.
What I want to submit is that if you accept Questions by Private Notice and you, Sir, make a decision whether the Question shall or shall not be a Private Notice Question, would you not think it fair to all hon. Members to look at the customs we have had in the past and consider whether it would not be in order in future for hon. Members to put Questions to you which they would like to raise on their own initiative? For then you could decide whether those Questions shall be answered orally by the Minister.
After all, you are here to protect us; we are not here to increase the power of the Executive but to curb it. What I submit to the House is that I do not understand, referring to Eskine May and the Standing Orders, how this Ministerial practice has arisen and what authority there is for this practice to have arisen in the House. Further, is it in order if one wished to have this matter corrected to put down a substantive resolution or to ask the Leader of the House to give it his attention?
Mr. Speaker: If the hon. Member wants to change the practice of the House he is, of course, at liberty to put down a Motion and to invite the assent of the House to his proposition. I regard as part of my duty in the protection of minorities to see that Question Time is not further expanded at the expense of other time on behalf of each hon. Member who thinks that his unreached Question is of particular importance. That is the difficulty, and that, I suspect, is why the practice has arisen.

PUBLIC EXPENDITURE (VOTE ON ACCOUNT)
The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr. Selwyn Lloyd): With your permission, Mr. Speaker, I desire to make a statement on the Vote on Account which will be in the Vote Office at 4 o'clock.
I said in my Budget speech last year that I would put in hand a study of the whole problem of public expenditure in relation to the prospective growth of our resources for a period of five years ahead.
The Report of the Plowden Committee published last July endorsed this approach, and the Government accepted all the recommendations of that Report. My right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary was appointed to help me in implementing them. As, however, the Plowden Committee itself recognised, the scope for making large savings quickly is limited.
On 25th July last year, I said to the House that I would do my utmost to keep the increases in the 1962–63 Estimates to a level of not more than 2½ per cent. in real terms; in other words, after taking into account increases in rates of pay and prices.
The Estimates for 1962–63 total £5,611 million, exceeding that target by £111 million. They show, on a comparable basis, an increase of £384 million over last year's Budget Estimates. Had it not been for drastic pruning, including a wide range of savings in administrative costs, this figure would have been much higher. In fact, more than one quarter of the Civil Votes have been brought lower than they were last year. Of the increase, £139 million is due to increases in rates of pay and prices. The balance of £245 million is the increase in real terms. The figure for a 2½ per cent. increase would have been £134 million.
Seven-eighths of the increase of £384 million is accounted for by six large items. Agricultural support requires £66 million more. The railways deficit, that is to say, the British Transport Commission's deficit, requires £43 million. These two items together account for £109 million. Defence, together with related elements now in Civil Votes,

1137
requires nearly £100 million more. The increases in general and rate deficiency grants to local authorities call for another £86 million—mainly to finance education, including the higher pay for teachers. National Health Service expenditure is up by £27 million and that on roads by another £15 million.
In the task of containing the growth of the Estimates, the level of public service investment both by local authorities and by the Government is of particular importance, because much of it entails a continuing increase in Government current spending. The object must be to maintain a steadily expanding programme of public service investment while making sure it will be within our means.
In the current financial year, public service investment will have increased by about 13 per cent. In 1962–63, as the White Paper published last October showed, this expenditure is planned to increase by 6 per cent. We are working to plans which are based on holding the aggregate rate of increase in 1963–64 at the same percentage increase. I believe that this is of the greatest importance.
The task of containing public expenditure both on current and capital account is made harder by the constant pressure in this House and elsewhere for higher Government spending on many different objectives; each may be desirable in itself, but collectively beyond our resources. The Government aim to make these resources larger by doing everything to secure sound growth in the economy, primarily through growth in exports. But it is none the less of cardinal importance to ensure that the growth of public expenditure is kept within reasonable limits in relation to the growth of our resources. The fact that we have not attained the July target will not affect our determination to achieve that aim.
Mr. Albu: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Is it not an abuse of the normal procedure of the House for the Chancellor of the Exchequer to introduce a Vote on Account with a part of his Budget speech when he is not making a statement about any new change in Government policy?
Mr. Speaker: I do not think that any abuse of procedure is involved.
Mr. Callaghan: We all congratulate the Chancellor of the Exchequer on the frankness with which he has acknowledged his miscalculations. It is not for me to stand between him and his hon. Friends who, no doubt, will wish to ask him about the reason for the miscalculations, but I have two questions to put.
As the right hon. and learned Gentleman obviously will need to raise more money next year, and as his incentive for increased production has entirely failed, does not he think that, instead of visiting the additional cost upon the hard-pressed taxpayers in the lower income groups he might well recoup from the Surtax payers the £58 million which he will be yielding this year in terms of taxation?
Second, why do the Government the themselves to this ridiculous rate of growth which at the moment is stationary and is not likely to be more than I per cent. per annum, when, if they would only stimulate the country's economy, we could generate such a rate of growth as would enable it to contain this increased expenditure?
Mr. Lloyd: On the question of miscalculation, the hon. Gentleman will realise that the two items in respect of which I said that the results had not come in accordance with my expectations were agricultural support and the railway deficit, both of which are considerably larger than were expected in July.
He has had my answer about Surtax before.
As regards growth, the important point is that growth should be soundly based. As I have said, if we have growth here which simply means that attention is distracted from exporting to the soft market at home and we have growth of demand here which attracts more imports, we shall not solve our balance of payments difficulties.
Sir G. Nicholson: I am sure that the House will be glad to hear the reiteration of the statement that the Government accept the Plowden Report in toto. Cannot the Plowden Report be summed

1139
up by saying that its lesson or recommendation was that the Chancellor of the Exchequer should decide upon the global sum, calculated in a certain way, which should be expended by the Government in a given year and that, if any one service wanted a larger slice of the cake, other slices of the cake would have to be smaller? Does my right hon. and learned Friend still accept that in theory at any rate?
Mr. Lloyd: One of the conclusions of the Plowden Committee was that it was very difficult to chop and change once a programme had been adopted without doing more harm than good and, therefore, it was important not to embark upon any new project until its whole cost over the years had been measured and seen to be within the resources likely to be available. That is why I attach the importance I do to the public service investment programme in the future.
Mr. Bellenger: Why has the Chancellor of the Exchequer made this statement to us today in advance of his Budget speech which cannot now be very far off? If hon. Members put questions about policy which affect his Budget, he will evade answering them by saying that it is too near Budget time to give an answer. It is obvious from what he said today that these matters will affect the policy which he will disclose in his Budget speech. Therefore, in making his statement he has limited the whole issue from the point of view of questions being put. Why has he done that?
Mr. Lloyd: The Vote on Account will be placed in the Vote Office shortly. It shows that I have fallen short of the target by £111 million. I thought it straightforward to come to the House and say so openly.
Mr. Nabarro: Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware of the great anxiety felt on this side of the House concerning the apparently illimitable losses of such State boards as those for railways and coal? Is he aware that in addition to the railway loss of £151 million this year, there is now piled up a further loss of £90 million on coal? Much more important than the year in
1140
retrospect, what does my right hon. and learned Friend propose to do in the forthcoming year to try to hold these shocking losses within reasonable bounds?
Mr. Lloyd: First, regarding coal mining, I think that the whole House has welcomed very much the increase in productivity in the industry. That is very important for the national economy.
As regards the publicly-owned transport undertakings, my hon. Friend will be aware that plans are now being considered for a radical reorganisation of them.
Mr. Grimond: Will the Chancellor of the Exchequer consider two practical economies? First, will he get rid of the British independent nuclear deterrent and all that goes with it? Second, since he has wholly failed to carry out Government policy, will he get rid of the Chief Secretary?
Mr. Lloyd: In responding to those questions, I have in mind that the Liberal programme involves additional public expenditure of about £1,000 million.
Mr. Peyton: Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware of the degree of welcome which we give to the practice with which he has faced what must to him be a very disappointing set of facts? Is he aware further that many of his supporters are seriously disappointed that the promise, or even the threat, of last July has not been carried out, since this means, in the view of many of us, that we are failing to encourage the people of this country to live within their resources and face the facts? I very much hope that my right hon. and learned Friend will face his task in the knowledge that the stronger he is the more support he will receive from some quarters behind him, and I hope that he will communicate that knowledge to his colleagues.
Mr. Lloyd: I am determined to do everything in my power to carry out the aim which I stated in my statement. However, the House should realise that in these matters there are broad policy decisions involved. As I said, £86 million is for the local authorities, and most of this is for growth in the education programme. Who wishes that that

1141
should be cut? There is the road programme, the National Health Service, and so forth. I have not been aware of great pressure from my right hon. and hon. Friends in regard to cutting defence expenditure. As for the Opposition, their defence programme, as I understand it, would cost more than the Government's.
The main point is that the House as a whole has to consider the planning of the public investment programmes for the future. The 13 per cent. increase in public service investment this year is one of the reasons for the excessive demand upon our resources.
Mr. Mitchison: In view of what the right hon. and learned Gentleman has said today, may we have an assurance from him that there will be no further cuts, by way of delay or otherwise, in the expenditure on the social services or in public investment of which the Government gave notice earlier this year?
Mr. Lloyd: The hon. and learned Gentleman will be able to see, in the Vote on Account, the exact particulars. I, too, have read in the newspapers of suggested cuts in such things as welfare milk and family allowances, and things of that sort. There will be no such cuts.
Dame Irene Ward: While welcoming my right hon. and learned Friend's statement about increased productivity in the mining industry, may I ask if he can tell me what was the assessment of increased productivity both in the mining industry and the railway industry, having regard to the amount of capital investment in them? Would he also tell me why it is that we have not had anything in the way of an increase for the railway superannuitants who, in the old days, did something to make the railways better than they are today?
Mr. Lloyd: If my hon. Friend will give me notice of both those questions, I will try to answer them.
Mr. Lee: In view of the effects on the economy of the right hon. and learned Gentleman's miscalculations, does he say that his policy of a pay pause still stands?
Mr. Lloyd: Certainly.
Sir Harmar Nichols: Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that there will be overwhelming support for his
1142
diagnosis that, above all, we must increase exports and that we must do it speedily? In view of the need to do that very speedily, is this not an opportune moment to look with sympathy at the suggestion for giving direct tax incentives to the exporting part of industry?
Mr. Lloyd: I would ask my hon. Friend to look at the report of the committee appointed by the Federation of British Industries to investigate that matter. Perhaps when he has read it we might discuss it.
Dr. King: Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that local authorities which have responded to his appeal and have taken it very seriously find two significant causes of rises in local government expenditure to be thoroughly unjustifiable? One is the astronomic rise in the price of land and the other is the heavy burden of loan charges. Will he direct his attention to solving these two factors?
Mr. Lloyd: We will consider these and other relevant matters.
Mr. Prior: Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that much of the increase in the agricultural subsidies has been caused by the dumping of a marginal amount of food from abroad which was not needed to feed our population properly, that this caused an increase in deficiency payments which could not be well avoided, and that it really does not help our import bill or give great encouragement to exports either?
Mr. Lloyd: I am aware of that fact.
Mr. Shinwell: Has the right hon. and learned Gentleman taken into account the possibility of the West German Federal Government making a contribution in support costs? Is it not the case that, in all, that contribution should be about £70 million per annum? If that sum were paid, would it not make a substantial difference?
Mr. Lloyd: No credit is taken in the figures given in the Vote on Account for a contribution by the West German Government. My views about a West German contribution have already been expressed and negotiations are continuing.
Mr. Speaker: I am in the hands of the House in this matter, but there is no Question before the House.
Mr. Gaitskell rose—
Mr. Speaker: Mr. Gaitskell.
Mr. Gaitskell: What does the Chancellor mean by "sound rate of growth"? Does that mean that anything in excess of 2½ per cent. a year is unsound? If so, how does he reconcile this with the fact that the O.E.C.D. agreed to a rate of growth of 4½ per cent. per annum? Is it not the case that, if we were to reach such a rate of growth, we automatically raise all the money that is required for this expenditure?
Secondly, I ask the Leader of the House whether, in view of the Chancellor's statement—which was made, presumably, in order to keep the House fully informed on these matters—he will make arrangements for an early debate.
Mr. Lloyd: The answer to the question addressed to me by the right hon. Gentleman is that it depends on the nature of the growth. The plain fact is that everyone must accept that our growth, if it is to be sound, must come from growth in exports.
Mr. Hirst: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has made a grave and alarming statement. I put it to you most sincerely that it is not fair to cut this off so early when so serious a statement has been made which is causing alarm to a number of us—my hon. Friends as well as hon. Members opposite.
Mr. Speaker: I am in the hands of the House in this matter. Right hon. and hon. Gentlemen are asking and answering questions without there being a Question before the House, and that time is in subtraction from time available for other business. I have to balance these matters as best as may be. I do not think that we should pursue this matter now without a Question before the House.
Mr. Gaitskell: May I first have a reply from the Leader of the House about an early debate?
Hon. Members: Answer.
Mr. Hirst: Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. In view of the absence of a reply by the Leader of the House to the Leader of the Opposition's question, I beg to give notice that I will seek to raise this matter at the earliest possible moment.
Mr. Gaitskell: Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. Is it not very unusual for the Leader of the House to refuse to answer a very simple question, put quite courteously by the Leader of the Opposition, about a debate on a statement which, whatever our views on it, we all regard as being of immense importance?
The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Mr. Iain Macleod): On the contrary, the Leader of the Opposition knows perfectly well that these matters often are, and always can be, discussed through the usual channels. Beyond that, there is nothing more I can say now, as he knows perfectly well.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

  COMMONWEALTH IMMIGRANTS BILL
  [2ND ALLOTTED DAY]
  As amended, further considered.

  COMMONWEALTH IMMIGRANTS BILL

    Clause 16.—(IMMIGRATION OFFICERS AND MEDICAL INSPECTORS.)
    3.58 p.m.
    Mr. Donald Wade: I beg to move, in page 11, line 36, at end to insert:
    "The power to give instructions under this subsection so far as they relate to the exercise of the powers conferred by section two of this Act shall be exercisable by statutory instrument and any statutory instrument setting out such instructions shall be subject to annulment by resolution of either House of Parliament".
    For the information of the House, Mr. Speaker, may I ask whether the proposed Amendments in page 11, line 31, to leave out subsection (3), and in page 11, line 36, at end to insert:
    "The power to give instructions under this subsection shall be exercisable by statutory instrument and any statutory instrument setting out such instructions shall be subject to annulment by resolution of either House of Parliament."
    will be considered with the one I am moving?
    Mr. Speaker: The Amendment being moved by the hon. Gentleman has been selected, and it is permitted, if the House agrees, to discuss with it the two other Amendments mentioned by the hon. Gentleman.
    Mr. Wade: I am obliged, Mr. Speaker.
    We are not now discussing whether there should be immigration laws for Commonwealth citizens, but to what extent, and by what method, the carrying out of these laws should be controlled and supervised by Parliament. The object of this Amendment is to ensure that the instructions to immigration officers about the carrying out of their powers under Clause 2 of the Bill—which deals with the refusal of admission and with conditional admission—should require the prior consent of Parliament, to be exercisable by Statutory Instrument subject to annulment.
    This procedure has been accepted in principle in Clause 17 (4), dealing with certain exemptions. Clause 17 itself
    1146
    provides that additions may be made to the exemptions, and that this shall be by the procedure for Statutory Instruments. The point at issue now is whether the instructions and the wide discretion involved should be left to the Secretary of State and his officials and the immigration officers, or whether there should be some form of control exercised by Parliament.
    4.0 p.m.
    When we were discussing this subject in Committee, we were very much in doubt as to the nature of the instructions to be given to the immigration officers. We now have before us the draft instructions, and I recognise that some of them are not—as I think the Home Secretary put it—in "legal form". In this connection, the Home Secretary said in the debate on 13th February, when referring to the instructions:
    "They are, in the nature of things, working rules as to the actions which immigration officers should take in certain specified circumstances and, as hon. Members will see when they read these instructions before the week end, they are not expressed in legal or formal language."—[OFFICIAL REPORT. 13th February, 1962; Vol. 653, c. 1147.]
    I appreciate that, and I agree that some of the statements in the instructions are not in the normal legal form. For example, paragraph I of the instructions states:
    "Immigration Officers will of course carry out their duties without regard to the race, colour or religion. …"
    I am sure that all hon. Members agree with that sentence. And in paragraph 5 we read:
    "The need to impose a control on immigration for settlement in no way diminishes the Government's desire to welcome visitors."
    I hope that that will always be the Government's desire. But it would seem that some of the instructions involve, or may involve, some important questions of general policy. Perhaps I might give some examples of these. In paragraph 7 we read:
    "The Immigration Officer has power to impose a condition limiting a visitor's length of stay in the United Kingdom. Where this power is exercised, he can in addition impose a condition limiting or prohibiting the visitor's employment or occupation."
    And the paragraph goes on:
    "It will not be necessary to use these powers frequently."

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    This limiting or prohibiting of a visitor's employment or occupation raises an issue of principle and represents more than day-to-day instructions to immigration officers. I agree that this paragraph refers to visitors, and I am also aware that paragraph 19, which deals with employment, states:
    "… an Immigration Officer must not refuse admission to, or admit subject to conditions, a Commonwealth citizen who is coming to the United Kingdom for employment and is the person described in a current Ministry of Labour voucher."
    But there is power in Clause 2 of the Bill to impose conditions on the type of employment a Commonwealth citizen coming to this country may take up, and there may be a limitation on the time he will be allowed to remain in this country subject to the type of employment which he is able to obtain. While I do not have a great deal of complaint about these draft instructions, we have no guarantee that they will not be altered in the future. A future Home Secretary might decide to limit immigrants to certain menial jobs. I do not think that that is the intention of the present Home Secretary, but it is possible that such a thing could happen under the powers contained in Clause 2—and Parliament would have no right to prevent that being carried out since they are part of the discretionary powers which the Minister will have.
    Against the background to our discussions is the reserve power to impose some form of quota. In the debate on 13th February, the Home Secretary also said:
    "I hope that in arranging our business for the Report stage we will give more time to Clause 2. The hon. Gentleman referred to the remarks of the Attorney-General, and I can only say that, in column 354 of the OFFICIAL REPORT, if he will turn to the Explanatory and Financial Memorandum of the Bill, he will see the following words:"
    The Home Secretary went on to quote those words, which concluded:
    "'… subject to any limit which the Government may from time to time consider necessary '."
    And the Home Secretary continued:
    "It is this last quota, as I understand it, to which my right hon. and learned Friend was referring. If that enlightens the hon. Gentleman in any way, that is the best answer that I can give at short notice on this point. I underline the words in the Explanatory and Financial Memorandum: '… subject to any limit which the Government may from time to
    1148
    time consider necessary.' We must reserve this as a Government decision, and that is the answer to the intervention of the hon. Member for Huddersfield, West (Mr. Wade)."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 13th February, 1962; Vol. 653. c. 1152 and 1153.]
    It may be that if instructions are issued in the future on the subject of quota they may be given to representatives of Her Majesty's Government overseas in the countries of origin. I do not know, but if so, perhaps it will not come under this provision. Therefore, it would be helpful if an answer could be given to this question.
    I can see issues of importance arising if there is to be any kind of quota over and above the question of whether a Commonwealth citizen has a job available. If there is a quota, how is it to be fairly distributed as between one Commonwealth country and another? That seems to raise matters of principle about which Parliament should be consulted.
    Mr. Speaker: Surely the only point of the Amendment is that of Parliamentary procedure for dealing with a Statutory Instrument when it is made and whether the instructions are to be given by way of a Statutory Instrument. The hon. Member cannot discuss on this Amendment what the contents of the instructions will be.
    Mr. Eric Fletcher: On a point of order. It was made clear in Committee, before the instructions were published, that there would be an opportunity of discussing them in the House either on Report or Third Reading. The Home Secretary referred to this in columns 1148 and 1152 of the OFFICIAL REPORT for 13th February. The instructions to be given to immigration officers were not available to hon. Members when we last debated this matter. All hon. Members expressed their desire to discuss them. This is really the only Amendment before the House which will provide us with an opportunity of commenting on the instructions, unless you rule, Mr. Speaker, that they can be discussed on Third Reading.
    Since under the Guillotine we have until 6 p.m. substantially to discuss the Amendment—and the Amendment only—before Third Reading begins, I respectfully submit that, on this Amendment, it would be in order to discuss the

    1149
    instructions because that is related to the whole question of whether or not they are subject to a Statutory Instrument.
    The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. R. A. Butler): Perhaps I can help the House and you, Mr. Speaker. It was agreed that there should be an opportunity provided to discuss the instructions and I naturally very much hoped when we arranged business like this that there would be a gap when they could be discussed. I shall be ready later to answer any points that arise out of comments on the instructions, and there is only one slight inflection of difference between the hon. Gentleman the Member for Huddersfield, West (Mr. Wade) and myself on this.
    The actual system of granting vouchers arises under Clause 2, and there is only an indirect reference to this in the instructions. You were correct, Mr. Speaker, in saying that the whole system of granting vouchers was discussed on 22nd February when the points raised were answered by the Minister of Labour. I do not think that it would be in order to go into that in detail on the Amendment, but I think that it would be in order to discuss the instructions.
    Mr. Speaker: I accept that that is the right position. The matter concerning the instructions is made clear when I remind myself that I said that the Amendment in line 31 could be discussed with this one.
    Mr. Wade: I am obliged, Mr. Speaker. I was not intending to pursue the subject of the quota. I merely mentioned it as a point of principle which might well arise and which I hoped would come before us and would not merely be dealt with by instructions.
    The difficulty before us is this. Obviously, part of these instructions concern detailed day-to-day matters which cannot easily be incorporated in a Statutory Instrument. On the other hand, parts of them involve matters of principle which I should have thought could more fittingly be dealt with by a Statutory Instrument.
    I should like to make just one more quotation from HANSARD. Here, I wish to quote from my own observations. I said:
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    "Would not it be practicable to make some distinction between instructions dealing with the day-to-day duties of the immigration officers, and those involving important questions of policy? In the latter case, surely it is not sufficient merely to inform the House."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 13th February, 1962; Vol. 653, c. 1151.]
    I suggest that the best way round this difficulty is to incorporate the instructions in a Statutory Instrument but to delegate certain powers to the Minister by that Statutory Instrument. In that way, I think that we get the best of both worlds. The main points could be incorporated in a Statutory Instrument, but it would still be open to the Home Secretary to lay down rules for the benefit of immigration officers. I hope that this suggestion will be favourably considered.
    Although we have had helpful and liberal expressions of view from the Home Secretary, we must consider the future. May I put the problem in a very hypothetical way. Suppose that the Home Secretary were succeeded in office by the hon. Member for Louth (Sir C. Osborne). In that case, would we be entirely satisfied to leave such wide discretions in the hands of the Home Secretary? Unless we are satisfied with this point, I think that we should insist that a Statutory Instrument should be laid.
    Mr. Donald Chapman: I join with the hon. Member for Huddersfield, West (Mr. Wade) in thanking the Home Secretary for publishing the instructions. They have been very helpful, and I think that the latter stages of our debates on this complex Bill have been helped a good deal by knowing the sort of information which is contained in the White Paper. However, I should like to ask the Home Secretary a few questions about the White Paper, because I feel that it is not clear on a number of difficult points which need a personal explanation from the right hon. Gentleman.
    First, the final sentence of paragraph 20 of the White Paper reads:
    "Persons who require vouchers but have not obtained them should normally be refused admission."
    This is backed up in paragraph 28, the first sentence of which reads:
    "The general rule is that persons of eighteen or over must qualify for admission in their own right, for example, as the holders of Ministry of Labour vouchers or entry certificates, or as students."

    1151
    Taking those two sentences together, but particularly the first, I should like to know whether my impression of them is right. Does the White Paper mean that what we have called in our discussions the balanced quota of people without skill or without a job to come to here will never be admitted unless they have obtained a voucher before leaving their Commonwealth country? May we be clear: is this the end of free entry at the ports if a person has not a voucher of one kind or another? Or is it still possible for people to leave their home country, to come here and take advantage of some quota figure which the Home Secretary may have laid down and say, "That quota figure has not yet been exceeded. I wish to apply for admission to this country and I shall seek a job when I land."
    Dr. Alan Glyn: Would not the hon. Gentleman agree that it would be undesirable to let people come to this country on the off-chance of getting a job? Surely it would be better to ensure that they would be admitted here before they left their own country.
    4.15 p.m.
    Mr. Chapman: I am not arguing the case. I am merely asking for information. I wish to know whether the system which has applied so far under which people come here freely and search for jobs when they get into this country is at an end and whether only people with vouchers will be allowed in. I did not want to be drawn into an argument on the matter—we have had arguments throughout the Bill—but my answer to the hon. Member for Clapham (Dr. Glyn) is that I should have thought it would be wrong to close the door entirely to people who might wish to come here without going through official machinery in their own country. Provided the quota figures which the Home Secretary has in mind have not been exceeded, there should be considerable latitude at the ports, depending on how the figures are going in any period, to allow people to be admitted under a system such as that which operates at the moment.
    The second question which I should like to ask the Home Secretary concerns relatives. The paragraphs in the White Paper on this subject are clear enough. They set out the people who have the
    1152
    right to come here to join residents here or to follow accepted immigrants. Has there been any discussion with Commonwealth countries about how this can be facilitated? May we know, for example, whether the Home Office agrees with Commonwealth countries that relatives, when they travel separate from the immigrant worker, should carry a document stating who they are so that all the difficulties at the ports can be ironed out in advance?
    I have in mind particularly certain wives, common law wives for that matter, coming here to join an immigrant. Will such women be able to obtain without difficulty and carry a piece of paper issued in a Commonwealth country saying that she is the wife of a certain man who has been admitted here or who is a resident of this country? If so, everything at the ports will be plain sailing. I think that we all wish that to be the case. I hope that there has been consultation about this so that specific categories of people of this kind will be admitted by immigation officers and that Commonwealth countries will help the process by providing them with pieces of paper certifying the position, thus helping their progress through the ports.
    My third question concerns paragraph 7 of the White Paper. Immigration officers are told in the middle of the paragraph that they should
    "consider imposing a condition limiting the period of stay where the visitor's intentions are not clear, and he thinks it important that the visitor should appreciate that he is permitted to stay only for a limited period."
    What further instruction is being given about this? Surely that is a wide discretion to give to an immigration officer. Shall we follow the procedure adopted in the application of the aliens legislation, with periods of three months and six months being allowed, with facilities for renewal? What further guidance is being given to immigration officers about the limitation of the period?
    In commenting on the Amendment which seeks to leave out subsection (3), I come back to the general instructions to immigration officers and their power to admit persons subject to restrictions on employment. What sort of restrictions will these be? Will the right hon. Gentleman give us some examples of the type

    1153
    of restriction which, under Clause 2 (1, b), immigration officers will impose on employment under the Bill?
    We have been worried all the way through about how Parliament at any time will know the numbers which the immigration officers are being told to admit. We raised this matter with the Minister of Labour when we debated the question of vouchers. The Home Secretary has not been forthcoming on this issue. It may be right from an administrative point of view for him to refuse to commit himself in advance, but we are reaching a stage at which somebody must know, all things being equal, or if events are similar to those of the recent past, what regular flow of immigrants the right hon. Gentleman expects to be tolerable to this country. What is his judgment on this issue? How will be give instructions to immigration officers about the precise numbers to be admitted? How will they know when the numbers are being exceeded? Will they be given definite instructions to cut immigration off at a certain number? How will Parliament know the numbers which the right hon. Gentleman has in mind at any time? This is important.
    I come specifically to the Amendment moved by the hon. Member for Huddersfield, West (Mr. Wade). The Home Secretary's answer has been, "Do not put these things in Statutory Instruments. You always have the power to question the Home Secretary." But we cannot question him until he gives some information about the policy to which he is working in terms of total numbers. That is the crucial point of the Bill. Are the numbers to be cut to 10,000 a year or will 50,000 a year be tolerable? No one is asking the Home Secretary to commit himself now to a precise figure, but we must be informed how he will let us know later which of those two figures he has in mind—or any other figure. So far we do not know.
    What about the Irish under the instructions? There is nothing about them in the Bill or in the instructions to the immigration officers. The right hon. Gentleman said that he will admit the Irish; even though they are covered by the Bill, he intends to make an exception of them. Surely that should have
    1154
    been in the White Paper. Somebody must say somewhere what is to be done about the citizens of Northern Ireland and Eire. Why was it not in the instructions to the immigration officers? How will the Home Secretary work that? Is it to be the case that at the ports they are to be entirely free from restriction and omitted from the Bill altogether, or is any part of the general restrictions, for example the restriction on visitors to a particular length of time, to apply to citizens of Eire? Or are they to be totally exempt from every restriction under the Bill? This is a very important matter, and I hope that the Home Secretary will reply frankly at least to that part of my question.
    I apologise for giving him a catalogue of questions, but I hope that he regards them all as relevant.
    Sir Hugh Lucas-Tooth: The hon. Member for Birmingham, Northfield (Mr. Chapman) is under a misapprehension about the way in which the instructions will work. Presumably they will go to immigration officers and they will be at ports other than those receiving ships from Southern Ireland. I therefore assume that the Southern Irish who choose to come in through some other way will be treated as any other Commonwealth immigrants under the instructions, which are entirely non-discriminatory.
    I join the hon. Member for Northfield and the hon. Member for Huddersfield. West (Mr. Wade) in thanking my right hon. Friend for dealing with this matter by making the draft instructions available to us this afternoon. That is an exceptional action on his part, and it has done a great deal in all parts of the Committee to relieve anxieties about the way in which this scheme will work. Now that they have read the instructions, many people who had serious misgivings feel that many of those misgivings have been removed.
    Having had some experience of the way in which somewhat similar instructions have worked in the case of aliens policy, I believe that when this policy is brought into operation it will work smoothly and there will be very few complaints about it. But that is prophesy. These instructions are a good deal more liberal in character than those

    1155
    which the immigration officers have about aliens.
    Mr. Jeremy Thorpe: I should certainly hope so.
    Sir H. Lucas-Tooth: I agree, but it was worth pointing out that they are. It is a point which the hon. Member for Northfield did not make in his speech, and it is a point which we should note and on which we should express approval.
    The hon. Member for Huddersfield, West said that he would have preferred the scheme to be embodied in a Statutory Instrument rather than in instructions of this character. I do not think that he is right. These instructions are of a kind which must be entirely flexible throughout—flexible in themselves and flexible in that they may be varied from day to day to meet particular hard cases. Everyone who has experience of this sort of policy knows that new types of case regularly arise. If one has to deal with them under hard-and-fast regulations, one is bound to cause hardship.
    An example of what I mean is to be found in paragraph 25, on page 7:
    "A woman who has been living in permanent association with a man, even if not married to him, should be treated for this purpose as a wife. Immigration Officers should bear in mind any local custom or tradition tending to establish the permanence of the association."
    It is clear what that means. Everyone knows that immigration officers will interpret it liberally, but it would be quite impossible to reduce it to the kind of language which would have to be embodied in a regulation. There are plenty of other similar passages, but that is a very striking example. The hon. Member suggested that parts of the scheme should be embodied in a Statutory Instrument and that other parts might be left to the discretion of my right hon. Friend, with instructions being given through him to immigration officers. That would not be a very good idea. It would be the introduction of two-tier government in this connection. We should find that parts of the rules were hard and fast and that parts were subject to alteration in the light of particular hard cases. It is very much better to deal with the matter as it has been dealt with by my right hon. Friend. I
    1156
    am glad that he has seen fit to deal with it in this way, and I hope very much that the regulations will work as smoothly as I believe they will.
    4.30 p.m.
    Mr. Charles Royle. Could the hon. Gentleman tell the House, in view of the speech which he has just made and the blessing which he has given to the draft instructions, why he has tabled an Amendment to leave out the subsection which seems to establish them?
    Sir H. Lucas-Tooth: I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman was in his place when a point of order was raised earlier. The Amendment was tabled so that it should be possible to discuss the instructions. If the Amendment had not been tabled, such a debate would have been out of order.
    Mr. Royle: I am much obliged to the hon. Gentleman.
    Sir H. Lucas-Tooth: I certainly should not wish to press that Amendment, because it would run precisely contrary to the sense of the speech which I have made.
    Mr. Peter Walker: I support the remarks which have been made by my hon. Friend the Member for Hendon, South (Sir H. Lucas-Tooth) in congratulating my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary upon the production of the draft instructions. As one of those who viewed the Bill with a great deal of apprehension and considered that it would have a detrimental effect on Commonwealth relations, I greatly welcome the liberal attitude of the instructions.
    I should like to put one point to my right hon. Friend. As a great deal of anxiety has been caused in Commonwealth countries about the possible racial effects of the Bill, I wonder whether he could make some arrangements whereby the instructions or something similar to them could be given wide circulation in Commonwealth countries.
    Mr. W. R. van Straubenzee: I intervene briefly. I should not have intervened at all had it not been for something said by my hon. Friend the Member for Hendon, South (Sir H. Lucas-Tooth) which leads me to ask my

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    right hon. Friend whether he can explain the point more clearly. It is the narrow point concerning the Southern Irish.
    As I understood my hon. Friend, it was his interpretation of the present legal position that—although the Bill, as drafted specifically includes the Southern Irish, and we have the Government's declaration that they do not intend to operate it, at any rate at the present time—if a Southern Irishman chose to sail from Southern Ireland to, say, Southampton he would be subject to the regulations but if he chose to travel on one of the ordinary routes to a West Coast port he would not be subject to them.
    That interpretation may or may not be right. I differ from my hon. Friend with very considerable hesitation in view of his long experience, but if his interpretation is correct I hope that my right hon. Friend will make it clear, because it does not sound a workable proposition to me. I am under the impression—though I should be most grateful for clarification about this—that the Southern Irish are not in any circumstances at present to have the provisions of the Bill or the instructions applied to them, and that in that respect they will be in precisely the same position as Ulster men. It is on that point that some of us will hope to catch Mr. Speaker's eye on a subsequent occasion.
    It is because I think it is most important that neither the House nor the public should be in any doubt about precisely what the application of the regulations will be that I intervene briefly to ask for further clarification. Perhaps I might add, in one sentence, my very real sense of appreciation for the tenor of the regulations, which, as my hon. Friend the Member for Worcester (Mr. Walker) has just said, has greatly helped many of us.
    Mr. Percy Holman: I feel rather concerned about paragraph 25 of the instructions. We want to encourage immigrants from other parts of the Commonwealth to adapt themselves to our normal way of life, and I consider that it would be a good thing if they were encouraged, if at all practicable, to marry the women with whom they are associating before coming to this country. Otherwise we shall
    1158
    be faced with an ever-increasing illegitimacy rate, especially in London, where it is already much higher than the rest of the country, and where about a quarter of all these immigrants are at present living.
    I should like a little more information about another part of the paragraph which says that immigration officers should bear in mind any local custom or tradition tending to establish the permanence of the association. I have at least two constituents who have brought with them one wife and family but have left at least one other wife and family in India. I want to know whether this other part of the instruction has any relevance in that respect. In other words, shall we in future be taking into account conditions and associations in some parts of the Commonwealth and be admitting immigrants who have several wives and considerable families?
    Mr. Fletcher: Congratulations have been tendered to the Home Secretary both upon having published the draft instructions and upon their tenor. I do not demur from those congratulations at all. In fact, I add mine to them.
    However, I think it fair to add that at any rate some of the congratulations are due to the Opposition and to some back bench hon. Members opposite for the pressure that we maintained during earlier stages of our discussions for the publication of the draft instructions and also for their drafting in the most humane, liberal and enlightened manner possible. Consequently, I think we may all legitimately participate in the happier position in which we find ourselves today compared with when we originally discussed the Bill.
    Having said that, I do not think it in any way detracts from the arguments put forward by the hon. Member for Huddersfield, West (Mr. Wade) in support of the Amendment. A similar Amendment in the name of some of my hon. Friends and myself is being discussed with that Amendment. I still think that on the whole it would be an advantage if the instructions were embodied in a Statutory Instrument and, therefore, had the form and force of a Statute and required the sanction of Parliament. I do not accept the view

    1159
    that the fact that the instructions, necessarily in some paragraphs are couched in vague non-legal language, in itself is a reason why they should not be embodied in a Statutory Instrument. I accept the advantages of flexibility, but that does not mean that they should not be in the form of a Statutory Instrument.
    Nor do I think that the plea for flexibility detracts from the argument, because we all have experience of Statutory Instruments having to be varied and amended time after time, as the Minister of State knows perfectly well, and there are instances in other forms of subordinate legislation where amendments are repeatedly made—in the Customs Acts and some of the Road Traffic Acts. Therefore, that is not an argument for refusing to put these instructions in the form of a Statutory Instrument.
    But the references to flexibility, which, I think, were made on both sides of the House, raise in my mind a question to which I hope we shall have an answer from the Home Secretary. It is: granted that there has to be flexibility, and granted that experience may show the necessity for some revision of these instructions from time to time, may we have an assurance that if and whenever the instructions to immigration officers are varied or changed, any such variation or amendment of the instructions will be published and made available? That seems to me a very modest request to make.
    I should also like to ask the Home Secretary for an assurance that when these draft instructions take their final form, which will presumably be not before this Bill has emerged from this House and another place, the Home Secretary will make such revisions in the draft instructions as appear to represent suggestions and ideas which have been put forward in our debates here and other suggestions which, no doubt, will be put forward in another place, because—and I say this in no disrespectful manner—there is evidence in the drafting of these instructions that there has not been the fullest possible consideration of them. I imagine that this is the first draft, and I think the Home Secretary has said on more than one occasion that he was anxious to know the views of Members on the draft instructions.
    1160
    I share the sentiments which have been expressed about the general, liberal, humane and sensible tenor of the instructions, but, nevertheless, there are a number of instances in which the duties of immigration officers could with convenience be clarified. It is of the greatest importance that any intending immigrant should know with the greatest amount of precision what his chances are of getting into this country if he takes the trouble to come 3,000 or 4,000 or 12,000 miles.
    It is my belief, having studied these draft instructions pretty carefully, that there will be two classes of person. There will be those Who come to work and have a voucher; and those Who come because they are self-dependent, or as students, or because they are relatives of somebody and have a right to be here. Leaving aside the class of those who will come under the voucher system, it is most important that all the others should know with the greatest degree of certainty that, subject to some medical inspection or some security ground, they will be admitted. I am bound to say that, with the one exception about students, the situation does not appear to be as clear as it might be. I would have thought that any reasonable immigration officer reading these instructions would give the benefit of the doubt to any intending immigrant who arrived under these categories. If that is the intention, I welcome it.
    That brings me to the point about vouchers. This is really the only opportunity we shall have of clearing up some of the points which arise on paragraph 20 and the points which have been raised by my hon. Friends and hon. Members opposite. When we first discussed this the Home Secretary rather put us off by saying that we should in due course have a clear statement about this voucher system from the Minister of Labour. We had a statement from the Minister of Labour one day last week. With the greatest respect to the Minister of Labour, I do not think his most fervent admirer would say, Whatever his gifts are, that the gift of clear, lucid and precise exposition is one of his most obvious gifts. Therefore, I think that some of my hon. Friends and hon. Members opposite are justified in feeling that

    1161
    this question of the vouchers, and the interpretation of paragraph 20, is still obscured in a certain amount of mystery.
    4.45 p.m.
    I think we can best analyse it in this way. Those who come here to work under the voucher system will be either skilled or unskilled. If they are skilled no problem will, I think, arise. Either they will have a job to go to because an employer wants them, or they will have some obvious skill such as that of an architect or a nurse, or some professional or technical qualification, which will qualify them to come in, and they will, no doubt, get employment. But what about the unskilled?
    It is now clear that the way in which the Home Office intends to work this voucher system is by fixing in its own mind, and presumably, at some date communicating to this House and the public, the number of people who will be admitted as unskilled immigrants. That is the way the control will be exercised. That is why the Home Office wants powers in this Bill, in order to control the inflow of unskilled immigrants. We have repeatedly asked that the Government should tell us two things: first of all, what kind of numbers they propose to fix for the unskilled immigrants, whether they propose to fix these numbers monthly or quarterly; and whether they propose to fix them in relation to the countries from which the intending immigrants come.
    At the moment, unskilled immigrants come from all over the Commonwealth and from Ireland. This is where this Irish question is so important. The Bill at the moment does not relate to Ireland—at any rate, the Bill itself does not relate to Ireland in the sense that the instructions to immigration officers relate to Ireland. Irish unskilled immigrants will, as I understand it—I hope that the Home Secretary will correct me if I am wrong—for the time being at any rate be able to come to this country without a voucher and without any limitation of numbers and without restrictions when they get here. Therefore, it follows that the degree of control which the Home Office will exercise over unskilled immigrants from the Commonwealth will depend, at any rate in part, if not in whole, upon the number of unskilled
    1162
    immigrants who come into this country from Ireland, as they will be entitled to without a voucher, without control, without limitation of numbers.
    Will the Home Secretary please say whether that is his understanding also of the operation of the Bill plus the draft instructions as we now have them? If it is, then I think we are entitled to ask the further question: to what extent will unskilled immigrants from the Commonwealth be prejudiced by the numbers of unskilled immigrants who continue to come into this country from Ireland? Will there be in the mind of the Home Secretary a point notionally at which the advent of unskilled Irish immigrants will thereby inevitably prejudice and limit the number of unskilled immigrants from—shall we say?—Jamaica or the West Indies? Is there a point at which some control over the Irish is, in the view of the Home Secretary, found to be necessary? That is the point which troubles my hon. Friends and myself. It is on that subject that the Bill and the instructions are silent, and we have had no clear indication from the Home Secretary of what is intended.
    On one occasion the Attorney-General told us that some immigrants would be turned back through no fault of their own but because the quota had been satisfied. That would be a great hardship to any immigrant. What is far more likely to happen, however, is that some unskilled immigrants from the West Indies and elsewhere who have been able to enter the country quite easily up to now will find difficulty in obtaining vouchers in future.
    Intending immigrants will like to know what plans they can make for the future. Hon. Members on both sides of the House realise that for economic reasons, quite apart from moral and Commonwealth reasons, we shall still require—and perhaps we shall not be able to dispense with—a certain number of unskilled immigrants. It is, therefore, important that intending immigrants should be given some idea—something that they cannot possibly discern from any speech so far made by the Government—of the approximate number who would be admitted, and whether there would be an aggregate limitation or a limitation based upon countries of origin.

    1163
    These are the chief questions which concern my hon. Friends about these draft instructions. One reason why we press the Amendment is that, in the absence of clarification, Parliamentary control would obviously be far more satisfactory. This could be achieved if the Amendment were accepted. The House would then decide what instructions to immigration officers were to be embodied in Statutory Instruments.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: I will endeavour to answer as many as possible of the detailed points which have been raised. The debate has taken place as a result of an undertaking that there would be time to consider the instructions before we began the Third Reading debate, in case it should prove to be out of order to consider those instructions during that debate.
    Last week several hon. Members expressed their satisfaction at the fact that the Government had felt it right to make available a White Paper containing the draft instructions. The hon. Member for Salford, West (Mr. C. Royle) said that as a result of their publication he at least felt less miserable, if not happier. I will not put it higher than that. The hon. Member for Birmingham, Northfield (Mr. Chapman) said much the same thing, but was a little more cheerful than his hon. Friend.
    Mr. Royle: It was before the Minister of Labour made his announcement.
    Mr. Butler: My hon. Friend the Member for Hendon, South (Sir H. Lucas-Tooth) has expressed satisfaction that we have published a White Paper. It has made a considerable difference to our discussion. It has enabled the House to see the humane and, I hope, sensible way in which we hope to carry out the Bill's provisions. It has been said that we did not have in mind many of these points in the original instructions, and that they have been extracted from us by the House. We had in mind a policy exactly of this type when we introduced the Bill, but we have had the sense to listen to the points made by hon. Members on both sides of the House, including the hon. Member for Islington, East (Mr. Fletcher), and we have attempted to frame the instructions so that they will be in tune with the criticisms made.
    1164
    The hon. Member for Islington, East asked whether the House could have an assurance that if amendments were made in the instructions, or they were revised, particulars of the alterations would be made available to the House. I have already said that we shall keep the House informed. That is equivalent to the pledge for which the hon. Member asked. We must make available to the House, in whatever is the most convenient form, any considerable amendment to the published instructions to immigration officers.
    The hon. Member also asked whether the instructions, in their final form, would be made available. We rightly said that they would not be finalised before the Bill had been passed by another place. That is obvious, because it must go through the full Parliamentary process. When that has been done we shall finalise the instructions, and if it is the wish of the House we can make those available as well. I do not think that they will be fundamentally different from these, but we may have to take account of points which are raised in this debate and in debates in another place.
    It has been our object to place as few restrictions as possible upon Commonwealth citizens coming here, subject to the primary object of the Bill, which is to control entry, fundamentally by employment. I emphasise this because the instructions to immigration officers, especially those governing the exercise of their discretion, are likely to cover only a relatively small, although important, part of the field. They cover cases where immigration officers have discretion. If a man has a voucher or an entry certificate he just comes in. To that extent a large proportion of the field lies outside the terms of the instructions, although they are important.
    The purpose of the Amendment is the same as that of the Amendment which we discussed on 13th February, when the Committee accepted my view that it would not be right that all the instructions to be given under this subsection should take the form of statutory instruments. In moving the Amendment today the hon. Member for Huddersfield, West (Mr. Wade) quoted what I said on 13th February, namely, that the instructions were not suitable for expression in a

    1165
    legal way. I am sure that bon. Members who have read them will agree that they would be less useful as a guide to immigration officers, and as an indication to immigrants of our general policy, if they were put into the language of statutory instruments.
    But there are other reasons why the Amendment is not acceptable. They have been hinted at by some hon. Members, including my hon. Friend the Member for Hendon, South. It is likely mat we shall need to alter instructions to immigration officers from time to time, or to amplify certain paragraphs. For instance, in a recent debate the right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond) asked about organised training schemes, and the production of documentary evidence of sponsorship.
    I myself referred to certain schemes operating under the Colombo Plan. I have since been looking into the right hon. Gentleman's representations about apprenticeships, and I think that they would be covered by the certainty that such people would be admitted in the A category, but in case they are not covered I should like to reserve the position and to keep the instructions fluid, so that before finally publishing them—or even afterwards—I could meet cases of that sort which were not otherwise covered.
    It is therefore important that I should not be tied down too much by the Statutory Instrument procedure. It would be cumbrous and tiresome in the extreme if we had to lay a Statutory Instrument before we could make any adjustment in the relationship between the Secretary of State and his officers. The Amendment would cover all the instructions to officers relating to their functions. I must reserve the position in relation to the later paragraphs of the White Paper. Paragraphs 40 and 41, for instance, which deals with refusal on grounds of criminal record and on grounds of security, respectively, will not be published. They must be reserved. I do not think that anybody would expect an instruction concerning security to be published by the Secretary of State.
    5.0 p.m.
    I think that it is pretty clear from the debate that the instructions are on more or less the right lines, but I should
    1166
    make it clear again, in addition to what I have said in answer to the hon. Member for Islington, East, that if there are any other points raised even on Third Reading which seem to be unsatisfactory we shall take account of them in making the final instructions.
    The hon. Member for Huddersfield, West raised the question of paragraph 7 of the instructions which contains references to employment conditions and so forth. I want to stress that in that paragraph these words are used:
    "It will not be necessary to use these powers frequently."
    This is clearly the case. When the Bill was brought before us there was some feeling in Committee that to control and regulate employment was undesirable. We have entirely accepted the wish of the House of Commons in that matter. These powers are held completely in reserve so that an employment condition now can be applied only when there is a time condition. This means that it can apply only to visitors or students and it could apply to them only if the immigration officer thought that candidates for entry as visitors or students were going behind the voucher scheme and were attempting to get in illicitly in that way. Paragraph 7 is one of the most difficult paragraphs in the White Paper, and that is my answer to the hon. Member for Huddersfield, West.
    The hon. Member for Northfield raised the question of an important sentence at the end of paragraph 20, which he read with paragraph 28 of the White Paper. My answer to his point is definite, and I hope that attention will be paid overseas as well as here to what I now have to say. Paragraph 20 says:
    "Persons who require vouchers but have not obtained them should normally be refused admission."
    I want to make clear that the way in which the Bill operates is through vouchers. Although the hon. Member for Islington, East was somewhat derogatory about the explanation given by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour, and although it is not in order to go into the matter in detail here, I should like to make it clear that my right hon. Friend described how A vouchers would be obtainable from employers, B vouchers from countries

    1167
    of origin or through the centre here, and C vouchers would be provided by the centre under arrangements made in consultation with authorities overseas.
    This is the method by which the Bill will be operated. Therefore it is wise to give notice to intending immigrants that it is wiser to obtain a voucher or entry certificate—because we accepted the purpose of the Amendment moved by the hon. Member for Widnes (Mr. MacColl) about entry certificates. If a person obtains an entry certificate he can be certain of getting in past the immigration officer without trouble. All he has to do is to obtain the certificate from the country of origin.
    It is not wise therefore for an immigrant to come into this country without making any arrangements at all. It is all right if he comes as a visitor or student or in the class of residents and relatives who are covered by these instructions. It is only when he tries to come on the basis of employment that it will be unwise for him not to get the matter regulated before he comes. I would advise students always to try to obtain entry certificates with the aid of their own universities or authorities in their own countries so as to save themselves doubt at the ports, but if they come and there is doubt at the ports then paragraphs 13 and 14 in particular will show that every care will be taken to let them in if we possibly can.
    This is so much the case that although there is a reference to hours of study in paragraph 12 it is our intention that fewer hours should be accepted by the immigration officer at the port if it is thought that the immigrant is a genuine student in search of genuine study. There is always the opportunity to chance one's arm when one arrives at the port of entry, but it is essential, in the case of employment, for the immigrant to get himself fixed up with a voucher before he comes and advisable, in the case of an entry certificate, to obtain that certificate, especially if he is a student The whole aim of an entry certificate is to get the idea of the Bill understood overseas and then dealt with as sensibly as possible.
    Mr. Fletcher: Before the right hon. Gentleman leaves the question of students, will he be good enough
    1168
    to deal with the rather unfortunate expression in paragraph 13 of the White Paper Which refers to a student and where it is provided that the immigration officer must be satisfied that
    "his principal object in coming to the United Kingdom is to study …"?
    We have urged that there are a number of cases where people come partly to work and partly to study. They would not be able to say that their principal object was to study but it might be one of their two only objects in coming here. This is a point on which we think an Amendment is required.
    Mr. Butler: I shall, of course, think about what the hon. Member has said before we make the final version, but the object of the words is to stop students coming here who are not genuine and who want to avoid the voucher system. The case of the Kennington Commercial College, to which the hon. Member referred and which I have personally investigated, and other cases, will be covered.
    If there is doubt, my advice to students would be to get either an entry certificate or a voucher. The right way for people who are trainees or who are taking up apprenticeships is to obtain a voucher, and I should like to make it clear that they will be given an A voucher if they seek a genuine objective. It is our desire to encourage Commonwealth students. There are a great many here today and we do not want the Bill to have the effect of stopping young Commonwealth men and women coming here to study. There is no reason why we should stop them. It would be contrary to our object.
    The hon. Member for Northfield raised the question of relatives and I will see whether it is possible for relatives to carry with them the documents to which he referred. That is the main point, but I should also stress that in addition to trying to see that they carry the documents with them, of which I will take a note, I should say that any relative who is in doubt should obtain an entry certificate before entering the United Kingdom. The hon. Member asked whether consultation was going on with overseas countries. This point has been raised by two speakers. We are having full and detailed consultations with all the Governments overseas on these matters. I think that that partly accounts

    1169
    for the greatly improved attitude overseas as well as in the House, because it is now seen how it is intended that the Bill should work and it is seen that we must work it with overseas authorities as well as our own. This is having a good effect overseas.
    Another point raised by the hon. Member for Northfield was the question of a limit period under paragraph 7, and he asked whether there would be restrictions on employment. I think that I have answered that in dealing with a previous point. The hon. Member went on to raise a question which he attempted to raise when my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour was speaking. He attaches it to this Amendment and he wants to know how Parliament will know the number. The Amendment provides a convenient peg on which to hang a question like that. The hon. Member says that if Parliament cannot know the number it should be regulated by statutory instruments.
    I do not accept that the instructions should be under Statutory Instrument. It would spoil them. Nor can I go further than the Minister of Labour and say that we can announce ahead the number in category C. There is a slight misconception in the language of the hon. Member for Northfield which it is very valuable for me to correct before the Bill goes to Third Reading. He asked, and used the expression, how the immigration officers could know how many they would be permitted to admit and how entries would be cut off at a particular figure. We were also asked by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for South Shields (Mr. Ede) how the situation would be dealt with if one person rolled in at Southampton and another at Newcastle-upon-Tyne at the same time and how the immigration officer would know whether he should out one of those off. That implies a misunderstanding of the system. It also means that my opening remarks have not been fully understood. It will be seen that I have attended almost every hour of the debate and know most of the speeches.
    The sphere of discretion for immigration officers is only in relation to the classes referred to in the instructions. When a voucher is granted, it will be granted by the Ministry of Labour. Therefore, the limitation in class C,
    1170
    which is the only place where there will be a limitation, is made by the Ministry of Labour. Therefore, the immigration officers simply have to judge whether a person has a voucher or an entry certificate. They have to concern themselves not about numbers, but only about credentials.
    I hope that I have made the situation plain and thereby removed a considerable doubt about the operation of the Bill, which has been difficult to understand. I only hope that it will work out well. As my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour said, it is our wish that it should work out well.
    Mr. C. Royle: Does this mean that there will not be any actual figure of limitation? The figure of 40,000, for example, has been used constantly.
    Mr. Butler: It means that I cannot announce the number ahead, nor could the Minister of Labour, because that would be unfair both to us and to the immigrants. We want to control category C in the interests of the immigrants, socially and economically, and in the interests of this country. If the position is that in some year we think that the number coming in can be enlarged, the discretion will be left to the Government of the day. That is much fairer both to immigrants and to the country.
    An important corollary to this is the means by which the House will know the details. I have sufficient knowledge of this House to know that if it wants to know something, it finds it out. It will be open to hon. Members, on either side, to put down questions or otherwise to interrogate the Government about the operation of the Bill. In that way, and in the early review which we have arranged—it will be remembered that we have arranged a review of Part I of the Bill at the end of 1963—we shall be able to give the information that hon. Members desire. That, however, is a different matter from deciding the number today, which would be as unfair to the immigrants as to the administration. I hope that I have made the position clear to the hon. Member for Northfield, who raised many interesting points in his address.
    A detailed question has been asked concerning the Irish. I must make it

    1171
    clear that if the Irish come to an ordinary port—that is to say, not one of the Irish ports, where there is no immigration control—they will be governed, like anybody else, by paragraph 3 of the instructions. This is the legal position under the Bill. ID those instructions, the term "Commonwealth citizen" is used as an abbreviation for a Commonwealth citizen who by virtue of Clause 1 is subject to immigration control. What is meant, therefore, as will be seen from Clause 1 (4) in particular, is that the Irish would be subject to the Bill if they chose to come in by one of the other ports.
    My hon. Friend the Member for Worcester (Mr. Walker) asked whether wide circulation could be given to the instructions. I have already arranged that that shall be done. When the final version is made, we shall see that it is widely distributed overseas. The hon. Member for Bethnal Green (Mr. Holman) referred to various aspects of marital associations. The words used by the hon. Member—" tending to encourage permanence of association"—will be taken into account by the immigration officers. These are the points which have been raised in the course of the debate and which I have been only too pleased to answer and, I hope, clarify.
    Mr. van Straubenzee: May we be just a little more clear on what is for some of us the surprising discovery that if a Southern Irishman arrives at a non-Irish port, he will come in under paragraph 3 of the instructions? How will a Southern Irishman coming in in those circumstances be distinguished?
    5.15 p.m.
    Mr. Butler: To explain how the Bill will operate, I must refer to Clause 1 (4), which states:
    "This Part of this Act applies to British protected persons and citizens of the Republic of Ireland".
    They can, therefore, be identified at these ports and will be treated the same as any other Commonwealth citizen.
    Mr. C. Royle: The Home Secretary knows that I sit at his feet in this House and always take great notice of everything he says; in fact, some of the things
    1172
    he says I really believe. This afternoon, however, the right hon. Gentleman has rather blinded us on technical points Like the hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr. van Straubenzee), I am still a little concerned about the Irish situation. This is an illustration of the right hon. Gentleman's earlier remark, that if hon. Members want to find things out they have a way of doing so. On the Irish question, we seem to be in the position that we cannot find out the exact position. It may well be too late before we can get the information, and it certainly will be too late to use Question Time in the House for this purpose.
    The Home Secretary's objections to the Amendments seem to be based purely on technical difficulties. He has spoken of the situation arising that we cannot put all these matters into a Statutory Instrument. I should like to remind the right hon. Gentleman of the halcyon days of 1950–51, before the House had an 11.30 p.m. limit to Prayers, when hon. Friends of his used to keep the House up all night against the Labour Government praying against our Statutory Instruments. I was a Government Whip at the time, and I know well what that meant.
    In those Statutory Instruments, and particularly in the Explanatory Memoranda, there was not a shortage of words. I clearly remember hon. Members opposite, who were then in Opposition, occupying the time of the House on purpose to read paragraph after paragraph from the Explanatory Memoranda of those Statutory Instruments. I suggest to the Home Secretary that we should have the instructions, as we now see them or in their ultimate form, in the shape of a Statutory Instrument.
    We have had a good debate, and our position has been made clear. Even at this late stage, however, I ask for fresh consideration to be given. Great anxiety has been shown from many parts of the House about the terms of the Bill and the circumstances in which immigrants will enter the country. Our anxiety is by no means allayed. Because of that anxiety, which still exists, we are concerned that the House should have as much power as possible.
    Throughout our debates, on Second Reading, in Committee and on Report, the Home Secretary has spoken about

    1173
    the liberal application of the Bill. I pay him the compliment once more that it seems that there will be liberal application of it arising from the instructions. That does not, however, alter the fact that this House will lose its control completely, when the Bill goes through in its present form, if the instructions are not tabled as a Statutory Instrument. That is a safeguard that the House should have in a Measure which affects the whole Commonwealth. It would be another way of liberally applying the terms of the Bill.
    I cannot help but express deep disappointment that the right hon. Gentleman has not seen fit to accept the Amendment proposed by the Liberal Party and Amendments which have been tabled in similar terms by my hon. Friends. I wish that at this moment, or if not at this moment when the Bill reaches another place, steps might be taken to see that the Statutory Instrument procedure shall obtain, and I make that appeal in the hope that a change of view will come about in the mind of the Government.
    Mr. Ede: I have listened to this debate this afternoon with great interest. It reminds me of some of the problems which confronted me from 1945 to 1948 with regard to aliens. It was at the time when, if there had been no aliens law, the only restriction on people coming into this country from Europe would have been the carrying capacity of ships and aeroplanes. It was necessary, though very much against the grain in my case, to impose at first very severe restrictions in view of the plight this country was in, and then steadily to ease them.
    I think that what will be required here will be administration by common sense, and I hope that I am not giving any secret away when I say that the heaviest burden will fall on the Minister of State or on the Under-Secretary of State at the Home Office, in dealing with the awkward requests that come from immigration officers. On occasion, they will have to go to the right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary and say, "This is a very tricky one. There are arguments on both sides, and my inclination is to go one way. What do you think about it?" I have no doubt
    1174
    that the Secretary of State, if he is wise, would say, "Seeing that you have considered this at considerable length, I think I had better adopt your recommendation." There might be an occasion when that is not very easy for the Secretary of State, because in the end he will have to answer in this House for any mistake that might be made by an immigration officer or by the Under-Secretary. I hope I am not infringing trade union rules too much in giving that indication of the way in which, so far as I can gather from my negotiations with the Home Office in regard to the admission of aliens, the work still seems to be done.
    The worst possible thing that could happen would be if somebody is ruled out on a mere technicality. It is a very serious thing if, no matter with what care the statutory instrument or some other document that is generally available is worked out, on a pure technicality some wretched girl is ruled out, possibly in the kind of case mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Bethnal Green (Mr. Holman). When people whose religion allows them to have more than one wife in other countries turn up here, we admit one of them and then the other applies, we know that we cannot refer it to the Archbishop of Canterbury. This is something which has to be settled, first, by the immigration officers themselves, and, if there is some difficulty about it, by one of the Under-Secretaries, and finally by the Secretary of State.
    Sir H. Lucas-Tooth: Would the right hon. Gentleman say what he would do in that particular case?
    Mr. Ede: I would want all the details in front of me, but I am inclined to recognise that some of these things in other countries are decided not by a Statute, but by custom, and that is particularly true in the West Indies. I have explained this twice before to the House, and will not delay the House any further now.
    Therefore, while I hope that the final version of the instructions will give as much information as possible, I still hope that they will be mainly settled by rules of common sense at each stage. I have no doubt that if that is done, in the course of a little while, a kind of

    1175
    case law will be built up which all the people who actually have to take decisions will know, and they will then apply common sense to the kind of very intricate problem presented. If they get involved in any particularly difficult problem, I have no doubt that the hon. Member for Hendon, South (Sir H. Lucas-Tooth), in view of his former association with the Department, will always be willing to give them counsel's opinion, even on the difficult kind of point which I have just raised.
    I am still not clear about the quota, because the Minister of Labour, in a speech which I found singularly obscurantist, used the words and said there would be a quota. I gathered that, whether there is a quota or not, everybody wanting to come to this country will be well advised to get either a voucher or a certificate before coming here. I hope that there will be some arrangement inside the various Commonwealth territories in which this Measure will operate at long range whereby people can get the kind of assurance that will enable them to feel when they come here that they will be admitted, and that there will not be too much of what the right hon. Gentleman called "chancing the arm". Unnecessary trouble and friction at the ports of entry could quite easily make this Bill, when it becomes an Act, a very considerable cause of friction between the various
    parts of the Commonwealth, unless some such arrangement as that is made.
    I am bound to say that what the right hon. Gentleman said this afternoon about the Irish has not cleared my mind very much. In his Second Reading speech, he quoted what I said in 1948 about the Irish in this particular category of things, and I have heard nothing in the course of discussions on this Bill that has made me think that that is not still the best way in which to approach the problem. In the past few days, I have been reading the account of Peel's difficulties with the Irish, first as Chief Secretary in Ireland and afterwards when he was Home Secretary. I find that even as long ago as that, before Roman Catholic emancipation, he had reached the conclusion that it is no good trying to adopt logic as one's guide when one is dealing with Irish problems, because the Irish will always find their way either through or under any logical application or any rule that one attempts to make.
    I shall vote for this Amendment in the belief that there are some things that can be better done by Statutory Instrument, but I would not like to see Statutory Instruments applied to the whole range of the difficulties that arise on this particular phase of this Bill.
    Question put, That those words be there inserted in the Bill:—
    The House divided: Ayes 184, Noes 271.

    Division No. 108.]

    AYES

    [5.30 p.m.

    Abse, Leo

    Cullen, Mrs. Alice

    Grimond, Rt. Hon. J.

    Ainsley, William

    Darling, George

    Gunter, Ray

    Albu, Austen

    Davies, Harold (Leek)

    Hall, Rt. Hn. Glenvil (Colne Valley)

    Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

    Davies, Ifor (Gower)

    Hamilton, William (West Fife)

    Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

    Deer, George

    Hannan, William

    Awbery, Stan

    Delargy, Hugh

    Hart, Mrs. Judith

    Bacon, Mite Alice

    Dempsey, James

    Hayman, F. H.

    Baxter, William (Stirlingshire, W.)

    Diamond, John

    Henderson, Rt. Hn. Arthur (Rwly Regis)

    Beaney Alan

    Dodds, Norman

    Herbison, Miss Margaret

    Bellenger, Rt. Hon. F. J.

    Driberg, Tom

    Hilton, A. V.

    Bennett, J. (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

    Ede, Rt. Hon. C.

    Holman, Percy

    Benson, Sir George

    Edwards, Rt. Hon. Ness (Caerphilly)

    Holt, Arthur

    Blackburn, F.

    Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

    Houghton, Douglas

    Blyton, William

    Edwards, Walter (Stepney)

    Howell, Charles A. (Perry Barr)

    Boardman, H.

    Fernyhough, E.

    Howell, Denis (Small Heath)

    Bowden, Rt. Hn. H. W. (Leics. S. W.)

    Finch, Harold

    Hoy, James H.

    Bowles, Frank

    Fletcher, Eric

    Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglesey)

    Boyden, James

    Foot, Michael (Ebbw Vale)

    Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

    Braddock, Mrs. E. M.

    Forman, J. C.

    Hunter, A. E.

    Brockway, A. Fenner

    Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton)

    Hynd, H. (Accrington)

    Brown, Rt. Hon. George (Belper)

    Gaitskell Rt. Hon. Hugh

    Hynd, John (Attercliffe)

    Brown, Thomas (Ince)

    Galpern, Sir Myer

    Irving, Sydney (Dartford)

    Butler, Herbert (Hackney, C.)

    George, Lady MeganL.loyd (Crmrthn)

    Janner, Sir Barnett

    Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)

    Ginsburg, David

    Jeger, George

    Callaghan, James

    Gooch, E. C.

    Jenkins, Roy (Stechford)

    Castle, Mrs. Barbara

    Gourlay, Harry

    Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)

    Chapman, Donald

    Grey, Charles

    Jones, Rt. Hn. A, Creech (Wakefield)

    Cliffe, Michael

    Griffiths, David (Rother Valley)

    Jones, Dan (Burnley)

    Cronin, John

    Griffiths, Rt. Hon. James (Llanelly)

    Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham)

    Jones, T. W. (Merioneth)

    Owen, Will

    Stones, William

    Kelley, Richard

    Padley, W. E.

    Strachey, Rt. Hon. John

    Key, Rt. Hon. C. W.

    Paget, R. T.

    Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R. (Vauxhall)

    King, Dr. Horace

    Panned, Charles (Leeds W,)

    Stross, Dr. Barnett (Stoke-on-Trent, C.)

    Lawson, George

    Pargiter, G. A.

    Swain, Thomas

    Lee, Frederick (Newton)

    Parkin, B. T.

    Swingler, Stephen

    Lewis, Arthur (West Ham, N.)

    Pavitt, Laurence

    Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield)

    Lipton, Marcus

    Pearson, Arthur (Pontypridd)

    Thomson, G. M. (Dundee, E.)

    Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

    Peart, Frederick

    Thornton, Ernest

    MacColl, James

    Pentland, Norman

    Thorpe, Jeremy

    McInnes, James

    Plummer, Sir Leslie

    Timmons, John

    McKay, John (Wallsend)

    Popplewell, Ernest

    Ungoed-Thomas, Sir Lynn

    Mackie, John (Enfield, East)

    Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

    Wainwright, Edwin

    McLeavey, Frank

    Probert, Arthur

    Warbey, William

    MacPherson, Malcolm (Stirling)

    Randall, Harry

    Watkins, Tudor

    Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.)

    Rankin, John

    Weitzman, David

    Manuel, A. C.

    Redhead, E. C.

    Wells, Percy (Faversham)

    Mapp, Charles

    Rhodes, H.

    White, Mrs. Eirene

    Marsh, Richard

    Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

    Whitlock, William

    Mason, Roy

    Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon)

    Wilkins, W. A.

    Mayhew, Christopher

    Robertson, John (Paisley)

    Willey, Frederick

    Mellish, R. J.

    Robinson, Kenneth (St. Pancras, N.)

    Williams, D. J. (Neath)

    Mendelson, J. J.

    Rogers, G. H. R. (Kensington, N.)

    Williams, LI (Abertillery)

    Milne, Edward

    Ross, William

    Williams, W. R. (Openshaw)

    Mitchison, G. R.

    Royle, Charles (Salford, West)

    Williams W. T. (Warrington)

    Monslow, Walter

    Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E.

    Willis, E. G. (Edinburgh, E.)

    Moody, A. S.

    Short, Edward

    Wilson, Rt. Hon. Harold (Huyton)

    Morris, John

    Slater, Mrs. Harriet (Stoke, N.)

    Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A.

    Mort, D. L.

    Slater, Joseph (Sedgefield)

    Woof, Robert

    Moyle, Arthur

    Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.)

    Yates, Victor (Ladywood)

    Mulley, Frederick

    Snow, Julian

    Neal, Harold

    Spriggs, Leslie

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

    Oliver, G. H.

    Steele, Thomas

    Mr. Wade and Dr. Broughton

    Oram, A. E.

    Stonehouse, John

    NOES

    Agnew, Sir Peter

    Corfield, F. V.

    Hall, John (Wycombe)

    Allason, James

    Costain, A. P.

    Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N. W.)

    Arbuthnot, John

    Coulson, Michael

    Harris, Reader (Heston)

    Ashton, Sir Hubert

    Courtney, Cdr. Anthony

    Harrison, Brian (Maldon)

    Atkins, Humphrey

    Craddock, Sir Beresford

    Harrison, Col Sir Harwood (Eye)

    Barber, Anthony

    Critchley, Julian

    Harvey, John (Walthamstow, E.)

    Barlow, Sir John

    Crosthwalte-Eyre, Col Sir Oliver

    Harvie Anderson, Miss

    Barter, John

    Cunningham, Knox

    Hastings, Stephen

    Batsford, Brian

    Curran, Charles

    Hay, John

    Baxter, Sir Beverley (Southgate)

    Currie, G. B. H.

    Heald, Rt. Hon Sir Lionel

    Beamish, Col Sir Tufton

    Dalkeith, Earl of

    Hendry, Forbes

    Bell, Ronald

    Dance, James

    Hill, Dr. Rt. Hon. Charles (Luton)

    Bevins, Rt. Hon. Reginald

    d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

    Hill, Mrs. Eveline (Wythenshawe)

    Biffen, John

    de Ferranti, Basil

    Hill, J. E. B. (S. Norfolk)

    Biggs-Davison, John

    Digby, Simon Wingfield

    Hirst, Geoffrey

    Birch, Rt. Hon. Nigel

    Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. M.

    Hobson, Sir John

    Bishop, F. P.

    Doughty, Charles

    Hocking, Philip N.

    Black Sir Cyril

    Drayson, G. B.

    Holland, Philip

    Bossom, Clive

    du Cann, Edward

    Hollingworth, John

    Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hon. J.

    Duncan, Sir James

    Hornby, R. P.

    Boyle, Sir Edward

    Eden, John

    Hughes Hallett, Vive-Admiral John

    Brewis, John

    Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)

    Hughes-Young, Michael

    Bromley-Davenport, Lt. -Col Sir Walter

    Elliott, R. W.(Nwcstle-upon-Tyne, N.)

    Hulbert, Sir Norman

    Brooman-White, R.

    Emery, Peter

    Hurd, Sir Anthony

    Brown, Alan (Tottenham)

    Emmet, Hon. Mrs. Evelyn

    Hutchison, Michael Clarke

    Browne, Percy (Torrington)

    Errington, Sir Eric

    Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye)

    Buck, Antony

    Erroll, Rt. Hon. F. J.

    Jackson, John

    Bullard, Denys

    Farey-Jones, F. W.

    James, David

    Bullus, Wing Commander Eric

    Farr, John

    Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich)

    Burden, F. A.

    Finlay, Graeme

    Jennings, J. C.

    Butler, Rt. Hn. R. A. (Saffron Walden)

    Fisher, Nigel

    Johnson, Dr. Donald (Carlisle)

    Campbell, Sir David (Belfast, S.)

    Fletcher-Cooke, Charles

    Johnson, Eric (Blackley)

    Campbell, Gordon (Moray & Nairn)

    Forrest, George

    Johnson Smith, Geoffrey

    Carr, Compton (Barons Court)

    Fraser, Ian (Plymouth, Sutton)

    Kerans, Cdr. J. S.

    Cary, Sir Robert

    Freeth, Denzil

    Kerby, Capt. Henry

    Channon, H. P. G.

    Galbraith, Hon. T. G. D.

    Kershaw, Anthony

    Chataway, Christopher

    Gammans, Lady

    Kimball, Marcus

    Chichester-Clark, R.

    Gardner, Edward

    Kitson, Timothy

    Clark, Henry (Antrim, N.)

    George, J. C. (Pollok)

    Langford-Holt, Sir John

    Clark, William (Nottingham, S.)

    Gilmour, Sir John

    Leather, E. H. C.

    Clarke, Brig. Terence (Portsmth, W.)

    Glyn, Dr. Alan (Clapham)

    Leburn, Gilmour

    Cleaver, Leonard

    Goodhart, Philip

    Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry

    Cole, Norman

    Goodhew, Victor

    Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

    Collard, Richard

    Cough, Frederick

    Lilley, F. J. P.

    Cooke, Robert

    Gower, Raymond

    Lindsay, Sir Martin

    Cooper, A. E.

    Grant-Ferris, Wg. Cdr. R.

    Linstead, Sir Hugh

    Cordeaux, Lt.-Col. J. K.

    Gresham Cooke, R.

    Litchfield, Capt. John

    Cordle, John

    Gurden, Harold

    Longbottom, Charles

    1178

    1179

    Longden, Gilbert

    Pike, Miss Mervyn

    Talbot, John E.

    Loveys, Walter H.

    Pilkington, Sir Richard

    Tapsell, Peter

    Lucas, Sir Jocelyn

    Pitman, Sir James

    Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

    Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh

    Pitt, Miss Edith

    Taylor, Edwin (Bolton, E.)

    Mac Arthur, Ian

    Pott, Percivall

    Taylor, Frank (M'ch'st'r, Moss-Side)

    McLaren, Martin

    Powell, Rt. Hon. J. Enoch

    Taylor, W. J. (Bradford, N.)

    McLaughlin, Mrs. Patricia

    Price, David (Eastleigh)

    Teeling, Sir William

    Maclay, Rt. Hon. John

    Prior, J. M. L.

    Temple, John M.

    Maclean, Sir Fitzroy (Bute & N. Ayrs.)

    Prior-Palmer, Brig Sir Otho

    Thomas, Leslie (Canterbury)

    Macleod, Rt. Hn. lain (Enfield, W.)

    Profumo, Rt. Hon. John

    Thomas, Peter (Conway)

    MacLeod, John (Ross & Cromarty)

    Proudfoot, Wilfred

    Thompson, Kenneth (Walton)

    McMaster, Stanley R.

    Quennell, Miss J. M.

    Thompson, Richard (Croydon, s.)

    Macpherson, Niall (Dumfries)

    Ramsden, James

    Thorneycroft, Rt. Hon. Peter

    Maddan, Martin

    Rawlinson, Peter

    Thornton-Kemsley, Sir Colin

    Maltland, Sir John

    Redmayne, Rt. Hon. Martin

    Tiley, Arthur (Bradford, W.)

    Manningham-Buller, Rt. Hn Sir R.

    Rees, Hugh

    Tilney, John (Wavertree)

    Markham, Major Sir Frank

    Renton, David

    Touche, Rt. Hon Sir Gordon

    Marlowe, Anthony

    Ridley, Hon. Nicholas

    Turton, Rt. Hon. R. H.

    Marples, Rt. Hon. Ernest

    Ridsdale, Julian

    Tweedsmuir, Lady

    Marshall, Douglas

    Robinson, Rt Hn Sir R. (B'pool, S.)

    van Straubenzee, W. R.

    Marten, Neil

    Roots, William

    Vane, W. M. F.

    Mathew, Robert (Honiton)

    Ropner, Col Sir Leonard

    Vaughan-Morgan, Rt. Hon Sir John

    Matthews, Gordon (Meriden)

    Royle, Anthony (Richmond, Surrey)

    Vickers, Miss Joan

    Mawby, Ray

    Russell, Ronald

    Vosper, Rt. Hon. Dennis

    Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.

    Sandys, Rt. Hon. Duncan

    Wakefield, Edward (Derbyshire, W.)

    Mills, Stratton

    Scott-Hopkins, James

    Wakefield, Sir Wavell (St. M'lebone)

    Montgomery, Fergus

    Seymour, Leslie

    Walker, Peter

    More, Jasper (Ludlow)

    Sharples, Richard

    Wall, Patrick

    Morgan, William

    Shaw, M.

    Ward, Dame Irene

    Morrison, John

    Skeet, T. H. H.

    Webster, David

    Nabarro, Gerald

    Smith, Dudley (Br'ntf'd & Chiswick)

    Wells, John (Maidstone)

    Nicholls, Sir Harmar

    Smithers, Peter

    Whitelaw, William

    Nicholson, Sir Godfrey

    Smyth, Brig, Sir John (Norwood)

    Williams, Dudley (Exeter)

    Nugent, Rt. Hon Sir Richard

    Spearman, Sir Alexander

    Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

    Oakshott, Sir Hendrie

    Speir, Rupert

    Wise, A. R.

    Osborn, John (Hallam)

    Stanley, Hon. Richard

    Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick

    Osborne, Sir Cyril (Louth)

    Stevens, Geoffrey

    Woodhouse, C. M.

    Page, Graham (Crosby)

    Steward, Harold (Stockport S.)

    Woodnutt, Mark

    Page, John (Harrow, West)

    Stodart, J. A.

    Woollam, John

    Panned, Norman (Kirkdale)

    Stoddart-Scott, Col Sir Malcolm

    Worsley, Marcus

    Peel, John

    Storey Sir Samuel

    Peyton, John

    Studholme, Sir Henry

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

    Pickthorn, Sir Kenneth

    Summers, Sir Spencer (Aylesbury)

    Mr. Frank Pearson and

    Mr. Michael Hamilton

    First Schedule.—(SUPPLEMENTARY PROVI SIONS AS TO CONTROL OF IMMIGRATION.)
    The Minister of State, Home Office (Mr. David Renton): I beg to move, in page 15, line 26, after "documents", to insert:
    "of any description specified by that officer, being a description appearing to that officer to be relevant for the purposes of the examination".
    Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Sir William Anstruther-Gray): I think that it would be convenient for the House to discuss with this the two next following Government Amendments in lines 27 and 31.
    Mr. Renton: Yes, Mr. Deputy-Speaker; it would be convenient to discuss the three together.
    In Committee, I undertook to consider the drafting of paragraph 1 (3) of the First Schedule which deals with the power to demand documents and the power to search for documents with a view to ensuring that the immigration officer's power to demand documents is
    1180
    limited to those relevant to his examination of the immigrant or visitor under the Bill.
    These three Amendments meet just that purpose. They provide that the immigration officer must specify the description of the documents he wishes to see and also that the documents must be of a description appearing to him to be relevant. I hope that the House will regard this as an improvement.
    Mr. Chapman: I raised this matter by an Amendment in Committee, and I am greatly obliged to the hon. and learned Gentleman for meeting the point we had in mind. I am a little puzzled as to why his words are better than mine, but no doubt the lawyers will know the answer, as they do on so many occasions.
    What the Government propose does help. The immigration officer will now be limited in two ways, first, in the general carrying out of his duties under Part I and, second, more specifically in regard to documents, since the documents he demands must be relevant for

    1181
    the purposes of the examination. He will not be able to demand that someone should empty his pockets on the table and show what he has in the way of documents. I am glad that the proposed Amendments cover that point.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Further Amendments made: In page 15, line 27, after "documents", insert "of any such description".
    In page 15, line 31, at end insert "such".—[Mr. Renton.]
    Mr. Renton: I beg to move, in page 15, line 36, after "examination" to insert:
    "(not exceeding seven days)".
    In Committee, the hon. and learned Member for Ipswich (Mr. D. Foot) moved an Amendment limiting to thirty days the length of time for which an immigration officer could keep a document under the powers given him by the First Schedule to detain a document handed to him by an immigrant or found on an immigrant after search. I persuaded the hon. and learned Gentleman to withdraw his Amendment in order that we might find a more suitable form of words. I did not think that it was necessary to have such a long period as thirty days for the retention of such document.
    The Amendment provides that the period shall be seven days. It will be very rare that an immigration officer will want to retain documents for even as long as that, but there might be a case in which it was necessary to do so for so long. I remind the House that there is the further safeguard that the document must be retained only for the purposes of the examination and not for any other purpose.
    Amendment agreed to.
    5.45 p.m.
    Mr. Renton: I beg to move, in page 15, line 42, after "inspector" to insert:
    "or by any qualified person carrying out any test or examination required by a medical inspector".
    We had a fairly considerable discussion on this point in Committee. I undertook that I would put down an Amendment in the sense then indicated. The purpose of this Amendment is to put beyond doubt the power of a medical inspector to require an immigrant to
    1182
    undergo an X-ray examination or any other kind of examination which the medical inspector thinks necessary. It is highly desirable also, for practical reasons, that the examination should be carried out not necessarily by the medical inspector himself but by a qualified radiologist or, according to the nature of the test or examination, by some other qualified person. This will be possible under the Amendment.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Mr. Wade: I beg to move, in page 19, line 34, to leave out from "comply" to "with" in line 35.
    This Amendment deals with certain wording in paragraph 8 of the First Schedule, Part II, providing for control over seamen. In sub-paragraph (3), it is provided:
    "An immigration officer may by notice in writing given at any time to any Commonwealth citizen to whom sub-paragraph (2) of this paragraph applies, authorise him to remain in the United Kingdom either without conditions or subject to any such conditions as could be imposed under section two of this Act, including in particular conditions requiring him—

    (a) to leave the United Kingdom in a specified ship or aircraft; or

    (b) to leave the United Kingdom within a specified period in accordance with arrangements for his repatriation;

    and where such a notice is given to any person, he shall not be treated as a person to whom admission to the United Kingdom has been refused unless, in the case where he is subject to conditions requiring him to leave the United Kingdom as aforesaid, he fails to comply or is reasonably suspected of intending to fail to comply with those conditions."
    The object of the Amendment is to omit the words
    "or is reasonably suspected of intending to fail to comply".
    This is not the case of a suspected criminal being found loitering on premises with intent to commit a felony. It is not suggested even that the seaman in question is intending to fail to comply but merely that the immigration officer reasonably suspects him of intending to fail to comply.
    We have heard a good deal about the amount of discretion given to immigration officers. It seems to me that this sub-paragraph imposes too great a burden on the immigration officer as well as putting the person in question in the very difficult position of having to prove

    1183
    that he is not rightly suspected of intending to fail to comply with the conditions. I need not elaborate. The point is whether it is reasonable to insert such words as these, and I hope that they will be deleted.
    Mr. Renton: I concede at once that these words are unusual and, on the face of it, appear to be somewhat arbitrary. But we are dealing with a rather unusual situation. The wording of the paragraph itself is a little complicated, but perhaps I can explain what the situation is. Then the House can better judge whether or not these words are appropriate.
    Take the case of a Commonwealth seaman who arrives at a port here, where the master of the ship wants to arrange for him to leave the ship and go back to his own country under alternative arrangements. Or there is the case of a seaman who may fall ill and be admitted to hospital here on the understanding that the owners of the ship will arrange his repatriation when he is better. Those are two examples of cases which could arise.
    It will be generally accepted—because there has been no adverse comment about it during our discussions—that the power given earlier in paragraph 8 (3) of the First Schedule is a necessary one. It is a power to impose special conditions; if the seaman fails to comply with them he can be detained and the master of the ship is made responsible for his removal. But the difficulty which arises is that the seamen may make it clear that he does not intend to leave in accordance with the arrangements made. He may even tear up the notice given to him and trample on it or say something which makes it quite plain that he is not going to go.
    Various circumstances could arise in which it became extremely doubtful whether he was going to go. If such circumstances should arise, it would be rather absurd that an immigration officer could take no action at all until the time for repatriation was past and the ship or aircraft had gone. The only result would be that there would have to be all the palaver of fresh repatriation arrangements, and the seaman would have to be held in custody until the
    1184
    arrival of the new time fixed for his departure.
    It is in the interests of all concerned, possibly indeed of the seaman himself, that, in an appropriate case, he can be detained and placed on board the ship on which he is due to leave. That is the effect of these words which the hon. Member for Huddersfield, West (Mr. Wade) wants to leave out. I agree that it is an unusual power to give, but I should have thought it was highly desirable to retain it.
    Mr. Chapman: Would not this mean that an immigration officer could have a man deported before there could be an intervention by someone applying to the Home Secretary or exercising an appeal against the officer's decision?
    Mr. Renton: No. I do not think that the fact that the immigration officer had himself reasonably suspected that the man was not going to go, say, the next day, would in any way prevent him from making representations to the Home Secretary. As we know from our experience under the aliens law, aliens who are detained do make representations. Quite candidly, I do not think that the hon. Gentleman's point is an answer to the case I have put.
    Mr. Chapman: I am unhappy about this, and that is why I propose to say something. The point I was trying to make was that these words mean that a person shall not be treated as having been prohibited from entering unless he fails to comply or is suspected of not intending to comply with the conditions. If the immigration officer suspects that the man concerned is not going to comply, he can thereupon remove him from this country and thereby prevent him from actually exercising some form of appeal either to the Home Office or to somebody else.
    In other words, that person may be refusing to comply for the moment in order to make some formal appeal. If these words are left in, however, the immigration officer can say, "I do not think that you are going to comply with the conditions. I could not care less about your appeal. I have the power to make you go, and you are going."
    Mr. Renton: I have already spoken twice, Mr. Deputy-Speaker. I do not know what the position is now.
    Mr. Deputy-Speaker: We are in some difficulty here. I understood that the Minister of State had the Floor. If he is interrupted, it can only be by short questions.
    Mr. Fletcher: I, too, am unhappy about this. It is not good enough for the Minister of State to say that in certain conditions the Home Office might have to go through "palaver"—I think that was his word. He said that, in certain conditions, the Home Office might have to go through a great deal of "palaver" to give effect to certain circumstances in which it thought it might have reasonable grounds for suspecting that someone was intending to fail to comply with certain conditions.
    We are concerned not so much with saving the Home Office, in a few isolated cases, from going through a certain amount of trouble, but chiefly with doing justice to an individual. If the point at issue is doing justice to an individual rather than doing injustice to him, then it is small price to pay that the Home Office may have a certain amount of trouble.
    Mr. Renton: The hon. Gentleman has quite misunderstood the position. We are envisaging circumstances in which repatriation arrangements have already been made. During the time that they are being made, and up to the moment they expire, there is an opportunity of making representation to the Home Office. There seems little point in having similar arrangements made all over again unless
    there is a really good reason for it. We do not see that there really is such good reason.
    Mr. Fletcher: I think that I am entitled to continue what I was saying, because I gather that the Minister of State got up not to make a speech but to interrupt me.
    I am far from happy about this. What worries me as much as anything is that a provision of this kind, which might mean injustice, is just the sort of thing that this House ought not to allow to be slipped into a Bill a minute before the Guillotine falls. Issues of principle are involved, and the House ought to weigh, on the one hand, the possibility of doing injustice to an individual and, on the other hand, the arguments put by the Minister of State about administrative convenience or inconvenience. It is all very unfortunate. This is not the first time it has happened that, as a result of this mischievous and iniquitous Guillotine, we cannot ventilate these matters.
    Mr. Renton: I am prepared to give an undertaking that this matter will be looked at in another place. I cannot say any more now, but I appreciate what the hon. Gentleman has said and willingly give that undertaking.
    Question put, That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill:—
    The House divided: Ayes 274, Noes 179.

    Division No. 109.]

    AYES

    [6.0 p.m.

    Agnew, Sir Peter

    Buck, Antony

    Craddock, Sir Beresford

    Allason, James

    Bui lard, Denys

    Critchley, Julian

    Arbuthnot, John

    Bullus, Wing Commander Eric

    Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. Sir Oliver

    Ashton, Sir Hubert

    Burden, F. A.

    Cunningham, Knox

    Atkins, Humphrey

    Butler, Rt. Hn. R. A.(Saffron Walden)

    Curran, Charles

    Barlow, Sir John

    Campbell, Sir David (Belfast, S.)

    Currie, G. B. H.

    Barter, John

    Campbell, Gordon (Moray & Nairn)

    Dalkeith, Earl of

    Batsford, Brian

    Carr, Compton (Barons Court)

    Dance, James

    Baxter, Sir Beverley (Southgate)

    Cary, Sir Robert

    d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

    Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton

    Channon, H. P. G.

    Deedes, W. F.

    Bell, Ronald

    Chataway, Christopher

    de Ferranti, Basil

    Bevins, Rt. Hon. Reginald

    Chichester-Clark, R.

    Digby, Simon Wingfield

    Bitten, John

    Clark, Henry (Antrim, N.)

    Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. M.

    Biggs-Davison, John

    Clark, William (Nottingham, S.)

    Doughty, Charles

    Birch, Rt. Hon. Nigel

    Clarke, Brig. Terence (Portsmth, W.)

    Drayson, G. B.

    Bishop, F. P.

    Cleaver, Leonard

    du Cann, Edward

    Black, Sir Cyril

    Cole, Norman

    Duncan, Sir James

    Bossom, Clive

    Collard, Richard

    Eden, John

    Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hon. J.

    Cooke, Robert

    Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)

    Boyle, Sir Edward

    Cooper, A. E.

    Elliott, R. W.(Nwcastle-upon-Tyne, N.)

    Braine, Bernard

    Cordeaux, Lt.-Col. J. K.

    Emery, Peter

    Brewis, John

    Cordle, John

    Emmet, Hon. Mrs. Evelyn

    Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. Sir Walter

    Corfield, F. V.

    Errington, Sir Eric

    Brooman-White, R.

    Costain, A. P.

    Erroll, Rt. Hon. F. J.

    Brown, Alan (Tottenham)

    Coulson, Michael

    Farey-Jones, F. W.

    Browne, Percy (Torrington)

    Courtney, Cdr. Anthony

    Farr, John

    Finlay, Graeme

    Longbottom, Charles

    Ropner, Col Sir Leonard

    Fisher, Nigel

    Longden, Gilbert

    Royle, Anthony (Richmond, Surrey)

    Fletcher-Cooke, Charles

    Loveys, Walter H.

    Russell, Ronald

    Forrest, George

    Lucas, Sir Jocelyn

    Sandys, Rt. Hon. Duncan

    Fraser, Ian (Plymouth, Sutton)

    Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh

    Scott-Hopkins, James

    Freeth, Denzil

    MacArthur, Ian

    Seymour, Leslie

    Galbraith, Hon. T. G. D.

    McLaren, Martin

    Sharples, Richard

    Gammans, Lady

    McLaughlin, Mrs. Patricia

    Shaw, M.

    Gardner, Edward

    Maclay, Rt. Hon. John

    Skeet, T. H. H.

    George, J. C. (Pollok)

    Maclean, Sir Fitroy (Bute &N. Ayrs.)

    Smith, Dudley (Br'ntf'd & Chiswick)

    Gilmour, Sir John

    Macleod, Rt. Hn. Iain (Enfield, W.)

    Smithers, Peter

    Glyn, Dr. Alan (Clapham)

    MacLeod, John (Ross & Cromarty)

    Smyth, Brig Sir John (Norwood)

    Goodhart, Philip

    McMaster, Stanley R.

    Spearman, Sir Alexander

    Goodhew, Victor

    Macpherson, Niall (Dumfries)

    Speir, Rupert

    Cough, Frederick

    Maddan, Martin

    Stanley, Hon. Richard

    Gower, Raymond

    Maitland, Sir John

    Stevens, Geoffrey

    Grant-Ferris, Wg. Cdr. R.

    Manningham-Buller, Rt. Hn Sir R.

    Steward, Harold (Stockport, S.)

    Gresham Cooke, R,

    Markham, Major Sir Frank

    Stodart, J. A.

    Gurden, Harold

    Marlowe, Anthony

    Stoddart-Scott, Col Sir Malcolm

    Hall, John (Wycombe)

    Marples, Rt. Hon. Ernest

    Storey, Sir Samuel

    Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N. W.)

    Marshall, Douglas

    Studholme, Sir Henry

    Harris, Reader (Heston)

    Marten, Neil

    Summers, Sir Spencer (Aylesbury)

    Harrison, Brian (Maldon)

    Mathew, Robert (Honiton)

    Talbot, John E.

    Harrison, Col Sir Harwood (Eye)

    Matthews, Gordon (Meriden)

    Tapsell, Peter

    Harvey, John (Walthamstow, E.)

    Mawby, Ray

    Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

    Harvie Anderson, Miss

    Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.

    Taylor, Edwin (Bolton, E.)

    Hastings, Stephen

    Mills, Stratton

    Taylor, Frank (M'ch'st'r, Moss Side)

    Hay, John

    Montgomery, Fergus

    Taylor, W. J. (Bradford, N.)

    Heald, Rt. Hon Sir Lionel

    More, Jasper (Ludlow)

    Teeling, Sir William

    Hendry, Forbes

    Morgan, William

    Temple, John M.

    Hill, Dr. Rt. Hon. Charles (Luton)

    Morrison, John

    Thomas, Leslie (Canterbury)

    Hill, Mrs. Eveline (Wythenshawe)

    Mott-Radclyffe, Sir Charles

    Thomas, Peter (Conway)

    Hirst, Geoffrey

    Nabarro, Gerald

    Thompson, Kenneth (Walton)

    Hobson, Sir John

    Nicholls, Sir Harmar

    Thompson, Richard (Croydon, S.)

    Hocking, Philip N.

    Nicholson, Sir Godfrey

    Thorneycroft, Rt. Hon. Peter

    Holland, Philip

    Nugent, Rt. Hon Sir Richard

    Thornton-Kemsley, Sir Colin

    Hollingworth, John

    Oakshott, Sir Hendrie

    Tiley, Arthur (Bradford, W.)

    Hopkins, Alan

    Osborn, John (Hallam)

    Tilney, John (Wavertree)

    Hornby, R. P.

    Osborne, Sir Cyril (Louth)

    Touche, Rt. Hon Sir Gordon

    Hughes Hallett, Vice-Admiral John

    Page, Graham (Crosby)

    Turton, Rt. Hon. R. H.

    Hughes-Young, Michael

    Page, John (Harrow, West)

    Tweedsmuir, Lady

    Hulbert, Sir Norman

    Pannell, Norman (Kirkdale)

    van Straubenzee, W. R.

    Hurd, Sir Anthony

    Pearson, Frank (Clitheroe)

    Vane, W. M. F.

    Hutchison, Michael Clark

    Peel, John

    Vaughan-Morgan, Rt. Hon Sir John

    Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye)

    Peyton, John

    Vickers, Miss Joan

    Jackson John

    Pickthorn, Sir Kenneth

    James David

    Pike, Miss Mervyn

    Vosper, Rt. Hon. Dennis

    Jennings, J. C.

    Pilkington, Sir Richard

    Wakefield, Edward (Derbyshire, W.)

    Johnson, Dr. Donald (Carlisle)

    Pitman, Sir James

    Wakefield, Sir Wavell (St. M'lebone)

    Johnson, Eric (Blackley)

    Pitt, Miss Edith

    Walker, Peter

    Johnson Smith, Geoffrey

    Pott, Percivall

    Wall, Patrick

    Kaberry, Sir Donald

    Powell, Rt. Hon. J. Enoch

    Ward, Dame Irene

    Kerans Cdr. J. S

    Price, David (Eastleigh)

    Webster, David

    Kerby, Capt. Henry

    Prior, J. M. L.

    Wells, John (Maidstone)

    Kershaw, Anthony

    Prior-Palmer, Brig Sir Otho

    Whitelaw, William

    Kimball, Marcus

    Profumo, Rt. Hon. John

    Williams, Dudley (Exeter)

    Kitson, Timothy

    Proudfoot, Wilfred

    Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

    Lancaster, Col. C. C.

    Quennell, Miss J. M.

    Wise, A. R.

    Langford-Holt, Sir John

    Ramsden, James

    Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick

    Leather, E. H. C.

    Rawlinson, Peter

    Woodhouse, C. M.

    Leburn, Gilmour

    Redmayne, Rt. Hon. Martin

    Woodnutt, Mark

    Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry

    Rees, Hugh

    Woollam, John

    Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

    Renton, David

    Worsley, Marcus

    Lilley, F. J. P.

    Ridley, Hon. Nicholas

    Lindsay, Sir Martin

    Ridsdale, Julian

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

    Linstead, Sir Hugh

    Robinson, Rt. Hn Sir R. (B'pool, S.)

    Mr J. E. B. Hill and

    Litchfield, Capt. John

    Roots, William

    Mr. Michael Hamilton

    NOES

    Abse, Leo

    Braddock, Mrs. E. M.

    Deer, George

    Ainsley, William

    Brockway, A. Fenner

    Delargy, Hugh

    Albu, Austen

    Brown, Rt. Hon. George (Belper)

    Dempsey, James

    Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

    Brown, Thomas (Ince)

    Diamond, John

    Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

    Butler, Herbert (Hackney, C.)

    Dodds, Norman

    Awbery, Stan

    Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)

    Ede, Rt. Hon. C.

    Baxter, William (Stirlingshire, W.)

    Callaghan, James

    Edwards, Rt. Hon. Ness (Caerphilly)

    Bellenger, Rt. Hon. F. J.

    Castle, Mrs. Barbara

    Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

    Bennett, J. (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

    Chapman, Donald

    Edwards, Walter (Stepney)

    Benson, Sir George

    Cliffe, Michael

    Fernyhough, E.

    Blackburn, F.

    Cronin, John

    Finch, Harold

    Blyton, William

    Crosland, Anthony

    Fletcher, Eric

    Boardman, H.

    Cullen, Mrs. Alice

    Foot, Michael (Ebbw Vale)

    Bowden, Rt. Hn. H. W.(Leics, S. W.)

    Darling, George

    Forman, J. C.

    Bowles, Frank

    Davies, Harold (Leek)

    Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton)

    Boyden, James

    Davies, Ifor (Gower)

    Gaitskell, Rt. Hon. Hugh

    1188

    1189

    Galpern, Sir Myer

    McInnes, James

    Ross, William

    George, Lady Megan Lloyd (Crmrthn)

    McKay, John (Wallsend)

    Royle, Charles (Salford, West)

    Ginsburg, David

    Mackie, John (Enfield, East)

    Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E.

    Gooch, E. G.

    McLeavy, Frank

    Skeffington, Arthur

    Gourlay, Harry

    MacPherson, Malcolm (Stirling)

    Slater, Mrs. Harriet (Stoke, N.)

    Griffiths, David (Rother Valley)

    Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.)

    Slater, Joseph (Sedgefield)

    Griffiths, Rt. Hon. James (Llanelly)

    Manuel, A. C.

    Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.)

    Grimond, Rt. Hon. J.

    Mapp, Charles

    Snow, Julian

    Gunter, Ray

    Marsh, Richard

    Spriggs, Leslie

    Hall, Rt. Hn. Glenvil (Colne Valley)

    Mason, Roy

    Steele, Thomas

    Hamilton, William (West Fife)

    Mayhew, Christopher

    Stonehouse, John

    Hannan, William

    Mellish, R. J.

    Stones, William

    Hart, Mrs. Judith

    Mendelson, J. J.

    Strachey, Rt. Hon. John

    Hayman, F. H.

    Milne, Edward

    Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R. (Vauxhall)

    Healey, Denis

    Mitchison, G. R.

    Stross, Dr. Barnett (Stoke-on Trent, C.)

    Henderson, Rt. Hn. Arthur (Rwly Regis)

    Monslow, Walter

    Swain, Thomas

    Herbison, Miss Margaret

    Moody, A. S.

    Swingler, Stephen

    Hilton, A. V.

    Morris, John

    Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield)

    Holman, Percy

    Mort, D. L.

    Thomson, G. M. (Dundee, E.)

    Holt, Arthur

    Moyle, Arthur

    Thornton, Ernest

    Houghton, Douglas

    Mulley, Frederick

    Thorpe, Jeremy

    Howell, Charles A. (Perry Barr)

    Neal, Harold

    Ungoed-Thomas, Sir Lynn

    Howell, Denis (Small Heath)

    Noel-Baker, Rt. Hn. Philip (Dierby, S.)

    Wade, Donald

    Hoy, James H.

    Oliver, G. H.

    Wainwright, Edwin

    Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglesey)

    Oram, A. E.

    Warbey, William

    Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

    Owen, Will

    Watkins, Tudor

    Hunter, A. E.

    Padley, W. E.

    Weitzman, David

    Hynd, H. (Accrington)

    Pannell, Charles (Leeds, W.)

    Wells, Percy (Faversham)

    Hynd, John (Attercliffe)

    Pargiter, G. A.

    Irving, Sydney (Dartford)

    Parkin, B. T.

    White, Mrs. Eirene

    Janner, Sir Barnett

    Pavitt, Laurence

    Whitlock, William

    Jeger, George

    Pearson, Arthur (Pontypridd)

    Wilkins, W. A.

    Jenkins, Roy (Stechford)

    Peart, Frederick

    Willey, Frederick

    Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)

    Pentland, Norman

    Williams, D. J. (Neath)

    Jones, Rt. Hn. A. Creech (Wakefield)

    Plummer, Sir Leslie

    Williams, LI. (Abertillery)

    Jones, Dan (Burnley)

    Popplewell, Ernest

    Williams, W. R. (Openshaw)

    Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham)

    Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

    Williams, W. T. (Warrington)

    Jones, T. W. (Merioneth)

    Probert, Arthur

    Willis, E. G. (Edinburgh, E.)

    Key, Rt. Hon. C. W.

    Randall, Harry

    Wilson, Rt. Hon. Harold (Huyton)

    King, Dr. Horace

    Rankin, John

    Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A.

    Lawson, George

    Rhodes, H.

    Woof, Robert

    Lee, Frederick (Newton)

    Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

    Yates, Victor (Ladywood)

    Lewis, Arthur (West Ham, N.)

    Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon)

    Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

    Robertson, John (Paisley)

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

    MacColl, James

    Robinson, Kenneth (St. Pancras, N.)

    Mr. Redhead and Dr. Broughton

    It being after Six o'clock, Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER proceeded, pursuant to Orders, to put forthwith the Question on an Amendment, moved by a member of the Government, of which notice had been given, to the remaining part of the Bill.

    Second Schedule.—(SUPPLEMENTARY PROVISIONS AS TO DEPORTATION.)
    Amendment made: In page 20, line 43, after second "port" insert:
    "in a country of which that person is a citizen or a country or territory to which the Secretary of State has reason to believe that he will be admitted, and".—[Mr. R. A. Butler.]
    6.10 p.m.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time.
    First, according to tradition, I should like to pay tribute to those hon. Members who have helped to make this a better and, I think, more effective Bill. I shall be referring to the various changes which have been made in the Bill, since I realise that on Third Reading one adheres to what is in the Bill. I should like to thank my own team, the Minister of
    1190
    State and the Joint Under-Secretary of State. In addition, I do not think it inappropriate to thank my right hon. and learned Friend the Attorney-General for his many interventions in our debates. Also, I wish to pay tribute to the stewardship of the hon. Member for Islington, East (Mr. Fletcher) who has stood almost alone in opposing the Bill from the Opposition Front Bench, aided by other distinguished people, and who has on every occasion said that he was totally dissatisfied with whatever we have said and has led his troops into Division Lobby after Division Lobby to register disapproval of what we had done. If that is not opposition, I want to know what is.
    There is now a greater calm than when the Bill was introduced before Christmas. I think that this is due to the realisation that the Bill will be administered in a humane and liberal spirit. In fact, the House and countries overseas have come to understand by degrees the spirit and manner in which the Bill will be operated. This may be

    1191
    due in part to the publication of the instructions to immigration officers, but I think that it is also due to the changes which have been made and explanations which have been given during the passage of the Bill. I have made it clear that we fully understand the seriousness of legislation which involves departing from the long-established tradition that citizens of member States of the Commonwealth should be free to come here and to stay here for as long as they like. We have never underestimated the seriousness of such a Measure.
    The reasons which I gave as to why the Government believe that the Bill was rendered necessary by the course of events have been justified by the information which has become available since its introduction. The Registrar General estimates that the net inward balance of the total population of the United Kingdom in 1960 was 82,000 compared with a net inward balance of 44,000 in 1959. They estimate that the figure for 1961 is likely to exceed 160,000, double the figure for 1960 which was in itself double the figure for the year before. I need not go into the other figures provided during our debates by the Home Office of immigrants from Asia, the Mediterranean, East and West Africa, the West Indies, and so on, which amounted to no less than 136,000 in 1961. But these figures indicate that there was a reason why the Government decided that a Measure such as this was necessary.
    As I say, on Third Reading, one discusses the contents of the Bill. The Government have decided to maintain the main structure of the Bill, but we have, with the aid of hon. Members, made certain improvements. For example, the duration of Part I has been limited to the end of 1963 so that it can then be reviewed in the light of experience of its operation and thereafter subjected, if Parliament so pleases, to annual review under the Expiring Laws Continuance Bill.
    We have written into the Bill a provision giving returning residents, wives and children the right of admission to this country and have made specific provision for the admission of students. Besides publishing instructions to immigration officers, we have provided a system of entry certificates and undertaken
    1192
    to seek the assistance of an advisory council in dealing with problems connected with the welfare of immigrants and their integration into the community. Those are all improvements for which we are grateful to hon. Members and which we have been only too glad to make.
    The main purpose of Part I of the Bill has not been free from a certain amount of misconception. The purpose of it is to control immigration into the United Kingdom from other parts of the Commonwealth. It affects Canadians, Australians and New Zealanders in the same way as it affects Indians, Pakistanis and West Indians. Critics of the Bill have fastened on the special position of the Southern Irish as evidence of racial discrimination, and there have been unfounded suggestions that the Government have not been clear on this issue. But we were very well aware of certain salient features before we decided to introduce the Bill.
    The first was that the Southern Irish come here in uncertain, but we believe considerable, numbers. Although no precise information is available, they have been coming for a long time, many of them on seasonal work. Secondly, we believed that power should be taken to bring them under the control of the Bill in case of need, and, thirdly, that their special geographical position would mean that in practice some special treatment would be necessary. That is borne out by the observations of the right hon. Member for South Shields (Mr. Ede) earlier this afternoon.
    The Government decided, as a matter of practice, that it was not desirable at this stage to put into force an entry control on traffic between the two islands. The power to do so is, however, in the Bill, and the Government accept the principle that, should this power have to be used to control immigrants from the Irish Republic, it should be exercised at the point of entry into the United Kingdom. That power is provided in paragraph 10 (2) of the First Schedule and in Clause 3.
    Steps have been taken to obtain much more accurate information than we have at present about Irish immigration, by greater use of records of various Government Departments and by the application

    1193
    of well-tried sampling techniques to the traffic between the islands. This information will be available by the time that Part I comes up for reconsideration towards the end of 1963. The sampling techniques are the same as those which we have been using recently on certain sea routes. They are voluntary, result in little inconvenience to passengers and give a sample and picture of what is happening. We have had experience of them operating in the social survey, and the results will be useful.
    An integral part of the entry conditions in Part I is that there should be a control over those coming here for employment. This is to be operated by means of the voucher system which we considered earlier this afternoon. As my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour explained, vouchers will be issued freely to those who have jobs to come to and to those who have special skills. In addition, there will be a third category of applicants who wish to come and work here and who have neither a skill nor a definite job waiting for them. It is this third category which will be subject to limits decided from time to time by the Government in the light of the employment position, economic expansion, social conditions and other factors, and I hope that they will be decided as much in the interests of the immigrants as in the interests of this country. We need these men and women, and all that we wish to ensure is that the numbers coming in correspond, so to speak, to the welcome which awaits them. The welcome will be warm, but the physical conditions must be present also.
    The voucher holder will not be subject to employment controls once he has been admitted to this country. It is important that I should make that clear. Voucher holders and their families, the various other classes who come under Clause 2, which has been revised, and those who avail themselves wisely of entry certificates, may be described as making up the great bulk of Commonwealth citizens presenting themselves at the control points of our ports of arrival. The sector in which the immigration officer will exercise discretion in applying any instructions will, therefore, be comparatively marginal.
    1194
    I cannot go over the reasons discussed in Committee and on Report against submitting the immigration officer's decision to a tribunal or to a judge. As the Bill indicates in Clause 16 (3), the immigration officer will be answerable to me in carrying out the instructions which I am laying down for his guidance, and I shall be responsible to the House both for the policy and for the way in which it is carried out. Earlier the right hon. Gentleman said that the task might well be that of one of the other Ministers. I dare say that it will be, because my hon. and learned Friend the Minister of State has distinguished himself in looking after the present aliens immigration controls, but he will be the first to realise that I cannot avoid responsibility. I was, therefore, pleased, earlier this afternoon, to make it clear to the hon. Member for Islington, East that I should be only too glad to be answerable to the House, because I think that the more hon. Members study and find out the way in which the Bill is working, the more reasonable will they find it to be. If it is not working well, we hope to have the same advantage as we have had in the passage of the Bill—namely, the constructive advice of hon. Members in making it work better.
    Before I leave Part I, I want to make it clear that we are in close touch with overseas territories about the voucher scheme and the best way of operating the entry certificate scheme in each individual territory. It will be essential for the proper working of the entry certificate scheme that we have collaboration with the authorities overseas.
    Part II of the Bill is intended as a permanent addition to the Statute Book, and I think that, on the whole, we can claim that the provisions of Part II have been generally well received, There is, I think, general acceptance of the view that it is right that there should be power to deport immigrants from the Commonwealth who offend against our laws. This is a power which will be exercised by the Secretary of State only on the recommendation of a court following conviction of an offence punishable with imprisonment.
    So much for the main provisions of the Bill. Before I conclude I should like to emphasise a point which is often lost sight of by commentators who

    1195
    appear not to have followed our debates very attentively. The basic purpose of the Bill is not to stop immigration but to control it in case of need. All of us, on all sides of the House, are very conscious of the value of the contribution which the immigrants are making to our national life. We all know, or should know, that our hospitals, our public transport and some of our mills, industries and factories would be in serious difficulties were it not for the services of immigrant workers. We shall, therefore, continue to welcome immigrants to help us in a great variety of occupations and employments.
    But in their own interests as well as ours, we do not want immigrants to come into the country at a greater rate than that at which they can be absorbed into the community. I emphasise that what we are proposing is a control of immigration and not a cessation of immigration. It is, I believe, because this fact has been realised that we are getting much more favourable reports from overseas countries and a better reception of the Bill in the House.
    After all these long days and nights of debate, I commend the Bill, as amended, to the House. It is a workable instrument, well designed to serve an inescapable purpose, and I ask the House to give it a Third Reading.
    6.24 p.m.
    Mr. Fletcher: The Home Secretary began his remarks by making some congratulatory references to myself, for which I thank him, and to other members of the Committee who have taken part in our debates. I should like to follow that note and to congratulate the Home Secretary on a very adroit Parliamentary performance in the way in which the Bill has been piloted through to Third Reading. One of the advantages of taking a Home Office Bill on the Floor is that we have the benefit of the Home Secretary's presence throughout the discussions in Committee.
    It would be wrong if I did not recognise that the Bill, which almost every Government spokesman has referred to with distaste and dislike, has been substantially improved since Second Reading. We should acknowledge that the Home Secretary has endeavoured, both today and earlier, to try and placate the
    1196
    storms of controversy. He claimed that we are in calmer waters today than when the Bill was introduced. If that is so, it is largely because the Home Secretary has taken care, as he did just now, to make a number of reasonable and sensible statements on the humane way he intends the Bill to be operated.
    The Home Secretary also referred to the very considerable improvements and changes which have been made in the Bill since we discussed it on Second Reading. I do not think he acknowledged that nearly all, if not all, of the improvements which have been made in the Bill were either inspired by or strongly supported by hon. Members on these benches. It is perhaps as well that I should recapitulate quite shortly the substantial modifications which we have initiated and which the Home Secretary has accepted.
    First, there is the all-important improvement that, instead of operating for five years, as originally intended, without any occasion or opportunity of Parliamentary review, the Bill will now be on the Statute Book for only some eighteen or twenty months before the whole question of its renewal or continuance arises for a thorough overhaul and discussion in Parliament. That will give the House the opportunity to test the Home Secretary's promises of the way the Bill will be operated.
    Even now there are certain aspects of the instructions to immigrant officers—the publication of which is welcomed—and of the voucher system which are far from clear to hon. Members. This was stressed by my right hon. Friend the Member for South Shields (Mr. Ede), and if they are not clear to him, then I am sure they will not be clear to a great many intending immigrants.
    The Home Secretary has also referred to the fact that we have inserted in Clause 2 a specific reference of benefit to students. We urged this upon him in the initial debates. While we welcome the statutory provision in the Bill, we are still anxious, as the Home Secretary knows, to ensure that in the operation of the Bill concerning students the same degree of welcome and of assistance will be given to part-time students as to full-time students. We think that it would be quite wrong to discriminate between those who come for a full-time

    1197
    university course or course of technical training, on the one hand, and, on the other hand, those, of whom there have been so many in the past, who come from the Commonwealth for the very laudable purpose of combining some useful employment in our economy with the undertaking of part-time studies of technical or other character.
    Next, I acknowledge the considerable modifications, which we urged and which have been accepted, in respect of the dependants of immigrants, their wives, children and step-children, and the enlargement of the provisions about residence. We welcome also the recognition which has been given to those who come, particularly from the West Indies—women who come here with men but who are not married to them in accordance with our conception of matrimony, but who, as a result of a long association, have the same kind of status in their own country as would be recognised in this country if they were legally married.
    The Home Secretary has also accepted the suggestions that have been made to him about entry certificates and the advisory council, to which we attach considerable importance. He has adopted a large number of detailed Amendments with regard to the production of documents, the availability of search and the conditions of deportation. I particularly welcome the excision from the Bill of what would have been a very retrograde provision of retrospective effect. It is now established that a person convicted of an offence committed before the Bill was passed cannot be deported. I am happy to see that this change has been made.
    I have no doubt also that if it had not been for the operation of the Guillotine and the truncated debates which have been forced upon us on some of the Clauses and, in particular, the Schedules, there would have been other Amendments that the Committee would have considered, and some of which would no doubt have been accepted by the Government. There will be an opportunity in another place to remedy that defect. I would stress that, in our opinion, the Bill as originally produced was a piece of ill-considered, ill-digested legislation, and that we have done a great deal to improve it. Even
    1198
    so, I do not think that anyone would pretend that in its present form it is even technically free from flaws and defects, and there are still some matters in the Schedules which are worthy of careful scrutiny in another place.
    Although I have claimed credit for the Opposition for a great many improvements that we think we have secured in the Bill, it still remains true that we adhere to the view that was expressed from the Opposition Front Bench when the Bill was introduced, that this is a bad Bill, and we intend to vote against it on Third Reading. We do so for the following reasons.
    First, we think that it will be a blot on our Statute Book. We regard it, as the Home Secretary has admitted more than once, as a violation of our long-cherished principle of the free entry of Commonwealth subjects to this country. Second, we think it will inevitably have a disruptive tendency on the Commonwealth. The Commonwealth today is a fragile conception. It is threatened with dangers of various kinds both from within and from without. However much the Government may argue the necessity for the Bill, the fact remains that in the eyes of the Commonwealth it is regarded as something tending to have a disintegrating effect on Commonwealth loyalty, Commonwealth unity and Commonwealth self-respect. The third reason why we shall vote against it is that we think it is actuated—if it is not, in fact, actuated, it is generally regarded as actuated—by colour prejudice and racial discrimination.
    One thing which we can contrast in the House, and which I must emphasise, is the wide divergence between the kind of moderate, liberal, conciliatory speech which we have just heard from the Home Secretary and some of the wild, irrational, emphatic utterances designed to stir up racial prejudice and hatred which have been made by Tory back benchers in various parts of the country. The Home Secretary must realise that one indirect effect of introducing the Bill has been to encourage some back bench Conservative Members to vent their spleen against Commonwealth immigrants of colour.
    I take only one example of this. Despite what the Home Secretary has said, it will take more words than his and

    1199
    more words than mine—and I hope enough words will be said—to correct the mischievous campaign which has been conducted in some parts of the country by some Tory back benchers against coloured immigrants from the Commonwealth. One particularly notable illustration of this was the speech recently made by the hon. and gallant Member for Buckingham (Sir F. Markham) in which he said—I think I had better quote the words—
    The Attorney-General: As that speech was made in my constituency, may I ask the hon. Member for Islington, East (Mr. Fletcher) whether he has seen the correspondence recently published in the local newspaper in which my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Buckingham (Sir F. Markham) stated that the matter to which the hon. Gentleman objects so strongly was not part of what he said?
    Mr. Fletcher: No, I have not seen that. I must admit that the Towcester Times is not—
    The Attorney-General: It was the Northampton Chronicle and Echo. I suppose the hon. Gentleman has given notice to my hon. and gallant Friend that he proposed to refer to his speech.
    Mr. Fletcher: I had not read those extracts. In view of the Attorney-General's interjection, I will not pursue the quotation. I will content myself by saying that I have noticed—this cannot be challenged or denied; I have noticed it in my own constituency and will give a relevant quotation in a moment—that there have been a number of speeches in various parts of the country indicating that a large number of the Commonwealth immigrants are criminals, or come here with no intention of working, or come here for vicious and undesirable purposes.
    An Hon. Member: And with disease.
    Mr. Ronald Bell: Perhaps I might revert for a moment to the subject of the quotation which the hon. Member for Islington, East (Mr. Fletcher) was proposing to make from a speech by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Buckingham (Sir F. Markham). I wondered whether the hon. Gentleman had given
    1200
    my hon. and gallant Friend notice of his intention. I think that the hon. Gentleman read the quotation on a previous occasion when my hon. and gallant Friend was not here. I also believe that my hon. and gallant Friend had already informed the hon. and learned Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget), from whom he obtained the quotation, that it was, in fact, a quotation from the editorial matter in the newspaper and that none of it was said by my hon. and gallant Friend. I think it is right that my hon. and gallant Friend should be given notice so that he can be present if there is to be any reference at all to that matter.
    Mr. Michael Foot: Why does not the hon. and gallant Member for Buckingham (Sir F. Markham) turn up here?
    Mr. Fletcher: I have said that I shall not pursue that matter.
    I have here a most scurrilous pamphlet which is circulating in my own constituency. It even suggests that the Opposition, by their Parliamentary action in opposing the Bill, have caused smallpox. That is the kind of rabid, irresponsible—
    Mr. John Harvey: Who published it?
    Mr. Fletcher: That is published by the Union Movement. [Interruption.]
    Lord Balniel: Let us get out of the gutter.
    Mr. Fletcher: That is an extreme case, but other hon. Members will be familiar with publications and speeches of a similar nature. This sort of thing has grown in recent months, and it is designed to stir up racial prejudice in this country. The point that I am making is—
    Mr. J. Harvey: The hon. Member does his argument no great good when he puts forward this sort of thing. To seek to suggest, as some of the hon. Gentleman's colleagues have done in the debate, that it is hon. Members on this side of the House who are anxious to foment trouble invites the sort of retaliation from this side of the House that we do not really want to introduce into this debate. But in this context it is surely fair to point out that there has

    1201
    been the case of a trade and labour club which decided to ban coloured members. Many hon. Members opposite were, quite rightly, concerned about that. It would also be fair to point out in this context that there have been strikes by trade unionists against the employment of coloured labour. In this context, too, it would be fair to point out that some of the areas in which racial strife has broken out are certainly not areas in which the Conservative Party flourishes. I should have thought that it would have been much better to have left all this out of the debate. I myself believe that all of us—most of us, at any rate—on both sides of the House are more than anxious to see that immigrants who come into this country come into reasonably happy surroundings where they can use their abilities in the best interests of this nation and in their own best interest, too. In those circumstances, I think that what the hon. Member was unfortunately bringing into the debate would have been better left among the irrelevancies which I think are much better forgotten, and ought to be forgotten on both sides of the House.
    Mr. Fletcher: I have been very patient, and I welcome that interruption, and for this reason. I think I prefaced my remarks by saying that one thing which I have not detected in the observations of the Government is any repudiation of some of the scurrilous statements made by some hon. Members opposite. I was very glad to hear the hon. Member's remarks. In fact it was the kind of intervention I was hoping for. I agree with the hon. Member that it is most important that on both sides of this House there should be repudiation of colour prejudice, from wherever it comes, whether it be the Union Party, or back benchers opposite, or from trade unionists. Wherever it comes from, it is most important that that kind of outlook and approach should be repudiated by this House. I know that the sentiments uttered by the hon. Member for Walthamstow, East (Mr. J. Harvey) are shared by some of his colleagues. I believe that they are shared by the Home Secretary. I think that it is most important that they should be expressed, because otherwise increasing harm will be done by this Bill.
    On this Third Reading we have to face the situation that the Government
    1202
    are taking powers to control the number of immigrants, and that it still looks as if there will inevitably be a discrimination against coloured immigrants as compared, shall we say, with Irish immigrants. This afternoon the Home Secretary made it clear that Irish immigrants will be able to come here without vouchers, and to the extent to which unskilled immigrants from Ireland come, there must inevitably be curtailment of the number of coloured immigrants who come from other parts of the Commonwealth. So those who regard this Bill as leading to discrimination based on colour are obviously justified and are using arguments which cannot be seriously challenged.
    I hope I may conclude on a constructive note. When this Bill is passed there will still be a large number of immigrants from the Commonwealth in this country. The majority of them will be coloured. The problem of assimilating, integrating, coloured immigrants in our society will remain. I think it is most important, when this Bill is passed, for the Home Secretary, with the advice of the numerous social organisations which exist, to do something to stimulate a far greater effort in this country to see that Commonwealth immigrants, particularly coloured immigrants, have greater opportunities for integration into the ordinary life of the community than exists at present.
    One of the reasons, of course, why the Home Secretary found it necessary to introduce this Bill at all was that the existence—as he put it—of immigrants in uncontrolled numbers produces certain social problems. One of the notoriour evils is in housing. It would be out of order for me on Third Reading to expatiate on that, but I think it is relevant, in concluding these remarks, to urge upon the Home Office the importance, after this Bill is passed, and with the assistance of the advisory council, of stimulating the efforts of the British Council, the National Council of Social Service, the various inter-Governmental organisations, the branches of the High Commissioners' offices in this country and the religious bodies of all denominations who are working in this field, with a view to seeing that Commonwealth immigrants are treated as equals, have no fear of racial discrimination, and are

    1203
    absorbed as far and as rapidly as possible into our English society.
    Mr. Stratton Mills: I think that the hon. Gentleman has forgotten to mention one point. He has not told us whether a future Labour Government would remove this Measure from the Statute Book. Will he clear up that point?
    Mr. Fletcher: That will be dealt with by another speaker from this Front Bench.
    6.46 p.m.
    Sir John Vaughan-Morgan: If my remarks are brief, it will be because I have some consideration for the large number of my hon. Friends on this side of the House who, I know, wish to catch the eye of the Chair. I will say this much for the speech we have just heard from the hon. Gentleman the Member for Islington, East (Mr. Fletcher) speaking for the Opposition. He started off badly with a smear campaign, which was shot down in flames—if one can shoot a campaign down—by my hon. Friend the Member for Walthamstow, East (Mr. J. Harvey), and ended up with a rather pathetic admission that the hon. Gentleman did not know what his party's attitude to repealing this Bill truly is. I hope the country will notice that with some concern. Despite the opposition which is to be taken into the Lobby against the Bill, we are not, I suspect, going to have a clear-cut definition of what that party's approach is.
    I am sure that I speak for the overwhelming majority of Members on these benches who support this Bill when I say that we do so with some regret. All of us all through have appreciated that if there is a necessity for it it is at least a deplorable necessity, but I also feel, as I think many of us do, that if only we had had on the Statute Book many years ago some powers of control—if I may put it in a thoroughly Irish way—we should not have needed this Bill today. The difficulty has been that there has been a rising fear that immigration would overwhelm this country and continue to create social conditions which we could not cope with. I believe that from now on we shall always have some such machinery on the Statute Book.
    1204
    The protestations from the party opposite are not unlike the protestations there were at an earlier stage many years ago from the Liberal Party in connection with the Aliens Act. Despite the fact that there was a Liberal Government after that, that Act still remained on the Statute Book.
    Of course, the Bill has been greatly improved. I think that it has been more improved by the instructions to the immigration officers than anything else. That has done a vast amount to allay the suspicions which many of us had almost from the beginning, and the fact that the Bill is also to be reviewed in eighteen months will make it easier to support it on Third Reading. I believe that this Bill is now necessary. I think that the time has come when we had to have some machinery of control. But I am concerned—very concerned—with the effect on the West Indies.
    The gamut of opinion in my own party ranges from Louth to Surbiton. I find myself nearer to the Surbiton end of the axis in my sympathies. I share with my hon. Friend the Member for Surbiton (Mr. Fisher) a great affection for the West Indies and the West Indians. It is good to hear so many people on both sides of the House say that they do not want any discrimination. I suppose that I shall reveal myself as being thoroughly discriminatory if I say that I would like any discrimination that develops to be practised strongly in favour of West Indian immigrants as against some of the other possible sources of the labour which the country needs. I make no bones about making that appeal. If we need labour, then let us get it from the West Indies, because thereby we can make some contribution towards solving the West Indians' social and economic difficulties, whereas the number that we can take from India or Pakistan will not help those countries at all. It will be a mere drop in the ocean.
    We can make a tremendous contribution towards helping the West Indies, to which we owe a great debt—a debt which we owe to no other part of the Commonwealth, for a reason of which we are all aware. I also say quite plainly that I should like to see any preference that is to be extended extended to Commonwealth citizens from

    1205
    the West Indies rather than to the Irish Republicans.
    That brings me to a point which makes many of us very unhappy. Many of us have qualms about the curious and anomalous position of the Southern Irish. I found my views well expressed in a letter in The Times, from a well-known journalist, Mrs. Elizabeth Nicholas, who said:
    "we have Mr. Butler, an enlightened Home Secretary, rising in the House to say that whereas it is impossible to control the immigration into the United Kingdom of foreigners, citizens of the Irish Republic, should this stream be diluted by British citizens from overseas, such control would become both possible and necessary. Why Mr. Butler, of all people, should be moved to utter such gibberish defies rational analysis. It must be the pixies at work."
    I feel that the pixies are still at work, to some extent.
    I have not heard any really satisfactory reason put forward by any Government spokesman why the Irish border could not be controlled. The frontier between Mexico and the United States is controlled. I do not say that it is 100 per cent. perfect, but at least some attempt is made to make it effective. But if it is absolutely impossible to do this, as we are told, I feel that the alternative solution—that our friends from Northern Ireland should go back to the system of sailing permits that prevailed during the war—should be tried out once more, if that is the price we have to pay for making the Commonwealth a reality and proving to the world that being a citizen of the Commonwealth is different from being a foreigner from Southern Ireland.
    The Southern Irish have got the best of both worlds. They have the glamour of independence as well as all the benefits of being part of the United Kingdom. We are now pampering them at the expense of our Commonwealth ties.
    We have eighteen months during which we shall have to scrutinise carefully the operation of the Bill, and my right hon. Friend will have a chance to reconsider the question of the Southern Irish. I think that we would all agree that the Bill will be administered very humanely and wisely. For that reason, I feel that I can support its Third Reading, but we must look at it even more carefully in eighteen months' time.
    6.55 p.m.
    Mr. C. Royle: It is almost unnecessary for me to say that I echo the sentiments expressed by the right hon. Member for Reigate (Sir J. Vaughan-Morgan) about the West Indies. He and I were members of the same delegation that went to the West Indies on behalf of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association, many years ago. I think that our love for the West Indies started at that time, and it has continued in the days that have followed.
    If the Bill had been born in the spirit expressed by the right hon. Member for Reigate, and in the terms used by the Home Secretary this evening, some of us would have had less concern about it, and there would have been less bitterness in our souls. But that is not the way it began. It did not begin in a pleasant, understanding way, with expressions of deep sentiment for the people of the Commonwealth, and especially of the West Indies. It began with the unholy triple alliance of the hon. Member for Louth (Sir C. Osborne), the hon. Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak (Mr. Gurden) and the hon. Member for Liverpool, Kirkdale (Mr. N. Pannell), with a few additions.
    It started in the wrong spirit. It started with agitations at Conservative Party conferences. Eventually, to my horror, the Home Secretary bowed to that agitation. It is not without significance that the three hon. Members to whom I have referred have left us almost alone during our discussion of the Bill. I know that the hon. Member for Kirkdale has spoken once or twice, but in the main those hon. Members have been absent from our deliberations. They have not helped their hon. Friends, or hon. Members on this side of the House, to try to make the Bill a better one. They would have been happier if no improvements had been made. Their vicious attitude towards the problem is not reflected in speeches like that to which we have just listened by the right hon. Member for Reigate.
    We have had the Second Reading debate and the somewhat lengthy Committee and Report stages, but in spite of what the Home Secretary said this evening, and the many things said by my hon. Friend the Member for Islington, East (Mr. Fletcher), I still have a

    1207
    nasty feeling that this is where I came in, in the Second Reading debate. It is the same old, pernicious Measure, in spite of all the improvements that have been mentioned by my hon. Friends, with the possible exception of the instructions that we have talked about so much today.
    In spite of the so-called improvements, the Bill will deal a severe blow to Commonwealth relations, both in the abstract and in the personal sense. The Irish are out of the Bill, and it will be very easy for our white friends in other parts of the Commonwealth to comply with the terms of the Bill. It therefore boils down to this: this Measure, at the end of its Third Reading, exercises immigration restraint on our coloured brethren.
    The hon. Member for Louth must be feeling very happy just now. He must be cock-a-hoop. I only hope that the Home Secretary is as unhappy as I am. In the course of our discussion he referred to something that I said a few days ago, and remarked that the instructions had made me at least less unhappy. I hope that he has the same feeling.
    I find some comfort in the draft instructions, but to a large degree that comfort has melted away in anticipation of the methods of the Minister of Labour. Those of us who listened to him carefully the other night and followed that up by reading what he said are still in a fog about what will happen. What good might have been done by the liberal instructions which are being issued to the immigration officers is being wiped out in the application of the Bill from St. James's Square. As we progressed with the Bill, I was one of those who thought that a sufficient number of immigrants would arrive in this country in the future to relieve their own economic pressures and to assist us in our problems in transport, in the hospitals and in industry, but after what the Minister of Labour said that hope is now very slight indeed.
    Confusion, deep concern and anxiety abound in the countries which are affected. I hope that I may be permitted to say that I know what I am talking about in that respect. I have been back from the West Indies only a few weeks, and I know how anxious and worried the West Indians are, particularly in
    1208
    Jamaica, about the application of this Measure. We have created trouble in their minds which we had no need to create.
    The Government, by means of the Bill, are abandoning a policy of a multiracial society in this country. They are saying, in effect, "You have your independence now. You are 21 years of age. Mother is no longer interested in you and your future." I begin to wonder seriously whether, when independence has been achieved by so many countries in the Commonwealth, Conservatives are interested in the Commonwealth now that it is no longer something to be exploited. The introduction of the Bill seems to be an indication that that is so.
    I appeal to the Attorney-General to be good enough to pass on to the Prime Minister what I now want to say. In a short time new members will be joining the Commonwealth Prime Ministers' Conference, in particular from the West Indies. Will the Attorney-General ask his right hon. Friend to ensure that when the next Conference assembles the question of immigration shall be very high on its agenda? I agree that this question is not just our burden. Migration is a burden on the Commonwealth as a whole, and I believe that countries like Canada, Australia and New Zealand could bear a great deal of that burden for us.
    When we argued this point earlier it was suggested that, for example, the Prime Minister of Jamaica would not be at the Commonwealth Prime Ministers' Conference anyhow. But he will be entitled to be there within a few months from now, and I sincerely hope that this will be a question which will be tackled by the Prime Ministers' Conference and fully discussed, with real consultation to see whether there can be an alleviation of the problem. I only hope for the immediate future that another Lord Birkett might rise in another place and persuade their Lordships to kill another Bill.
    If I have expressed what I have had to say with bitterness, I am sorry, but I have very deep feelings on these matters. The West Indies are a love of mine. I love the people and I should hate them to be hurt. We have one comfort. There will be reconsideration in

    1209
    1963. I hope that when that time comes we shall say of the Bill what someone much greater than I once said of another Bill: "Take it away and cut its throat."
    7.6 p.m.
    Mr. Norman Pannell: This debate started on a note of sweet reasonableness which I think has somewhat deteriorated since the speech of the hon. Member for Salford, West (Mr. Royle). Even the eye of the hon. Member for Islington, East (Mr. Fletcher) was piercingly fixed on me when the hon. Member made his criticism of certain Conservative back benchers. I hope in the course of my speech to reply, if only obliquely, to some of the charges made.
    I should like to express my great regret that the Bill has taken so long to reach its present stage. It was first presented to the House on 1st November. Nearly four months have since passed and there has been a great deterioration of the situation in that time. Immigrants have been coming in at the rate of over 10,000 a month since the Bill was first introduced, compared with about 3,000 a month last year. Obviously, had a timetable not been applied to the Bill there would have been even further delay.
    The Bill has been improved in Committee, but not in the manner that hon. Members opposite wish. There was a multitude of Amendments, many designed to nullify altogether the effects of the Bill, and all those were rejected. Some of the minor Amendments have improved the Bill, but there was a mountain of effort which has produced a mouse of a result. I do not want to revive the bitterness that actuated the speeches of hon. Members opposite in the early stages of the Bill. They were resolutely opposed to it and they were irrational in some of their views.
    On the housing question alone, hon. Members must be aware of the really tragic situation in some of our larger cities. It should be realised that this Government's programme for 300,000 houses, introduced ten years ago, was based on an increase in population of 150,000 a year, and now that increase is running at over 400,000 a year. My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary said that net immigration last year was 160,000. If one adds to that the natural
    1210
    increase of 250,000 it justifies the figure I have given. In the last six years the increase of population has exceeded expectations by over 1 million. How can a programme devised many years ago on the basis of a population increase of 150,000 a year possibly cater for the situation which we face today?
    I also greatly deplore the attempts of hon. Members opposite to introduce the question of the colour bar. I have never mentioned colour in any of my speeches. I have addressed large meetings of Africans and have explained the Bill to them, and I have had an extremely good reception. Hon. Members opposite have done the Commonwealth a great disservice by importing into the Bill an argument which had no right there.
    The fact that Australians, Canadians and New Zealanders are treated on exactly the same basis as West Indians, Indians and Pakistanis has, apparently, escaped the notice of hon. Members opposite. Obviously, more coloured people than others will be affected by the Bill, because the Commonwealth is 90 per cent. coloured, but that no more makes it a colour Measure than any law of general application could be termed a class Measure because it must inevitably affect more working-class people than those who are better off.
    One Amendment which I particularly welcome is that concerning students. Its intention was implied in the Bill as drafted, but I very much welcome the specific mention of students in the Bill, because in this direction lies one of the most valuable contributions that this country can make to the development of Commonwealth countries.
    There are one or two features of the Bill about which I am not happy. I am not happy about the deportation provisions—for example, the fact that an immigrant is exempt from deportation if he has been here for five years and the fact that he can claim citizenship if he has been here one year—or, under the Bill, five years—and by claiming citizenship can be exempted from the deportation provisions. That will retain in this country an unduly large number of people who have no right here.
    I cannot help mentioning once more that although I agree that in general

    1211
    there is no evidence that immigrants are more prone to disorder or to break the law than the average citizen, it is a fact that immigrants as a whole are much more prone than others to some of the more distasteful crimes. It cannot be emphasised too much that half the prostitution and living on immoral earnings that occurs in London is due to immigrants. [Interruption.] There were 68 cases out of 132 in the Metropolitan Police District of London. The figures are in HANSARD. The hon. Member for Birmingham, Northfield (Mr. Chapman) can see them without intervening with irrelevant remarks. It is on record that 68 out of 132 convictions in the Metropolitan Police District of London in 1960 were due to immigrants—[Interruption]—18 of whom were, I agree, from Ireland. There were a greater number of these offenders from West Africa than from Ireland or from the West Indies. When I mention Ireland, it is relevant because the deportation regulations apply to the Irish.
    The Bill is extremely moderate in its provisions. It does not affect those who are already here. It even allows their wives, children and dependants to arrive without let or hindrance. It extends the same privilege to those who are admitted later under the Bill. If an immigrant is admitted by a work voucher, there is no obligation for him to leave the country if he is out of work He may have worked for only a fortnight, but for ever after he has a right to remain here.
    Compare that with the provisions in other countries, including those of the Commonwealth, where there is the utmost insistence that an immigrant from this country or from any other part of the Commonwealth shall not risk being, or give rise to the risk of being, a charge on public funds. A deposit must be made to ensure that if that happens, he will be sent back to his own country.
    That contrasts with what happens here, despite the growing unemployment situation among immigrants, with 31,000 out of work at the last count in February. As 8 per cent. of the national average, that means that as these immigrants account for only 1 per cent. of the population, unemployment among them is
    1212
    eight times as great. That, however, is an exaggeration and I will put the figure at four or five times as great, which, I think, is a fair computation.
    Despite its defects, I welcome the Bill. Many of us have urged a Measure like it for years. We have been accused of wrong motives in doing so. We have borne those charges with a certain amount of equanimity. We have not piously said that hon. Members opposite should not inpute to others motives less worthy than their own. Some of us on this side, as well as hon. Members opposite, have the interest of the country at heart. We have urged the case for the Bill for years. I am sorry that regulations were not introduced years ago, when the problem would have been less difficult. It could have been handled with much less commotion than it has today.
    I welcome, however, the fact that the Bill will expire in December, 1963, because I doubt whether some of its provisions will be as efficacious as is hoped. This will give an opportunity also of reviewing the Irish question, in regard to which I share the views which have been expressed here this afternoon.
    Despite its defects, the Bill is a step in the right direction and I hope that it will be given an unopposed Third Reading. If it is not given an unopposed Third Reading, that means that despite their remarks, hon. Members opposite are determined to vote against the Bill and are determined, presumably, should they get into power, to repeal it. If that is their intention, they should state it fairly now so that the country can fully appreciate their attitude to this most important question.
    7.17 p.m.
    Mr. Chapman: I will not spend much time dealing with what the hon. Member for Liverpool, Kirkdale (Mr. N. Pannell) has just said. I say to him in all frankness, because we try in this Chamber to keep personal courtesy at a high level, that there is no bridge between him and one or two of his hon. Friends and, on the other hand, my hon. Friends and myself on this side of the House concerning the Bill. There never has been any bridge and there is no possibility of creating one. By their campaign over the last few years, the hon. Member and his supporters have

    1213
    led to a worsening of race relations in this country; they have done great harm to the Commonwealth; and what is, perhaps, the worst sin of all, by their concentration on the sort of thing that the hon. Member has been talking about tonight—fifty cases of immoral earnings in the West End of London—
    Mr. N. Pannell: Will the hon. Member give way?
    Mr. Chapman: Presently. I have hardly started. By his concentration on fifty cases of immoral earnings in the West End of London, the hon. Member has visited upon 300,000 or 400,000 coloured Commonwealth citizens here the sort of mass blackening by a few that is unworthy of any Member of the House of Commons. Talk about visiting the sins of the fathers upon the children—my God, if that does not come near to it, I should like to know what does.
    Mr. Pannell: I know that the hon. Member wants to look at the matter fairly. The point is that immigrants are responsible for more than 50 per cent. of this crime in the City of London. That is a fact which I wanted to point out. The number of cases that are discovered is only a small percentage of the offences committed. I have urged time and time again that it is in the interest of immigrants generally that the bad eggs who spoil the case for all of them should be sent out of the country.
    Mr. Chapman: The hon. Member has been doing this consistently, and the records of HANSARD and of his speeches throughout the country show that he has not stopped yet.
    The hon. Member asked whether we could have allowed the figures of immigration to continue at their present rate, and in the same breath he said that this was not a colour-bar Bill. I will ask him just one question, to which I know the answer. If last year there had been 113,000 white immigrants from the Commonwealth, all of whom, except for 5 per cent.—which is the normal figure of unemployment among the coloured population—had obtained jobs here, would we have had the Bill?
    Mr. Pannell rose—
    Mr. Chapman: I am not giving way continuously, but I will give way once
    1214
    more to the hon. Member presently. The answer to him is that he might still have had a case for the Bill, but he would not have trumpeted it throughout the country in the way that he has done; nor would he have had the scurrilous and vicious support which he has had from sections of our community. That is the terrible thing that the hon. Member has done for the Commonwealth. Not only have he and his hon. Friends expressed a good deal of this themselves, but the hon. Member has stirred up among even less reputable parts of our community the sort of colour prejudice and viciousness which it is our duty as Members of Parliament to try to keep quiet and not help to increase.
    Mr. Pannell: The hon. Gentleman is immoderate in his language, despite his intention to be courteous, which he expressed when he began. I have already replied to the question which he put to me, and in which, apparently, he is not now interested, as he is reading his notes. He asked me whether I would have advocated this Bill if all the immigrants had been white. I answered that on a previous occasion, when I said that if the population of this country was increasing by 400,000 a year, instead of the 150,000 originally estimated, there would have had to be restrictions, even if all the immigrants were white. I have already said that. It is on record in HANSARD.
    Mr. Chapman: I am obliged to the hon. Gentleman, but I answered him before he actually interrupted me. I tried to give the answer that it would never have had the effect on race relations which his unfortunate campaign has had in this country. However, I shall be dealing with the question of the increase in the population in a moment or two.
    May I say one other thing about the speeches we have listened to already? It is how very much I, and I am sure all my hon. Friends, welcome what was said by the right hon. Member for Reigate (Sir J. Vaughan-Morgan). So many of us, I know—and perhaps this is becoming too much of a theme in the course of this Bill—have a very soft spot indeed for the West Indies, and I am sorry if perhaps we intrude this view on the House a little too often.

    1215
    It is a fact that most of the West Indian islands are little bits of England cast off and thrown out into the Caribbean. That is the true situation. I am almost embarrassed to find the extent to which the West Indians are British even more than I am, and the extent to which the Queen is on the front pages of the newspapers there. I am almost embarrassed by the extent to which cricket is always in the headlines when the test matches are being played. I am embarrassed at their version of British customs, so proud are they of them.
    I am pleased when I see how very quickly they assimilate into Great Britain. In my part of Birmingham—and this is one part of the answer to the hon. Gentleman—I see young people of student age going about together, coloured and white, with no thought of colour whatever. This problem, which so afflicts the hon. Gentleman, does not affect the minds of that generation, thank heaven. I face it bluntly; the older people are the ones who are mostly the victims of colour prejudice. I look forward to the time when there will be no colour prejudice in this country, judging by the rate of assimilation and the growth of racial friendship that is going on in Birmingham today.
    While I am saying these things about the West Indies, let me say also how I welcome one other thing that the right hon. Gentleman said. I do not know whether the House appreciates the danger in that area, as well as the sentimental reasons which make many of us so concerned. The fact is simply that democracy itself is in danger in Jamaica today—if not in danger of immediate collapse, in danger of being steadily and remorselessly undermined by unemployment and misery in a community which has a Western standard of outlook and is demanding that it should be given a Western-cushioned living, tomorrow and not next week. This immense impatience for matching a Western outlook with a Western standard of living can be the undoing of the West Indies. This is the great danger today, because high unemployment, which migration is traditionally relieving for the time being, could cause the collapse of democracy in Jamaica.
    1216
    Indeed, there is another danger. Cuba is ninety miles from Jamaica. Does anybody pause to think how dangerous that is? If Jamaica were to go the way of Cuba, the whole of Central America, and many other British possessions, would be in flames—so that, in addition to the point of view of sentiment and pride in their British outlook, there is the purely narrow self interest of British possessions. We must be careful never to close the safety valve of migration from the West Indies.
    There is one final point about the West Indies that I should like to put to the hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friends. They may, though unintentionally, have done the West Indians a bad turn in lumping them together with many others in our Commonwealth. I do not like to draw distinctions between any particular groups, but I say this for the West Indies. This is one of the things that has always been frightening the hon. Gentleman and causing him to go hysterical from time to time. When they come here, the West Indians have a clean bill of health. They come here disease-free and intensely resistant to disease, and we have every reason to take them out of any criticism about standards of health.
    I said that I should have something to say in my general remarks about the problem of the increasing population in this country, and that, after all, is the big issue which divides us now that we have come to the Third Reading of the Bill. The Government's case for the Bill is that this country cannot absorb a net annual increase in the population on the scale that the recent immigration figures entail. I am sure that the Home Secretary would agree that this is the core of his case for the Bill. Frankly, if one looks at the world situation, this is a confession of economic defeat, taking other countries in comparison with ourselves.
    The nations of Western Europe are expanding rapidly, and they are net absorbers of population on a vast scale, because they have vigorous economies which are striding ahead, creating employment opportunities, and matching those employment opportunities both with immigrants and the houses in which to put them. I do not want to get too far away from the Third Reading debate,

    1217
    but should like to give just one example—that of Western Germany—and I quote from The Times:
    "Meanwhile over the past year the number of foreign workers in West Germany has more than doubled, and now stands at just above half a million. The Italians are the strongest contingent, with about a quarter of a million, the Spaniards and Greeks in second and third place with 50,000 and 44,000."
    The report goes on to say that between January and July, nearly 100,000 additional foreigners have found employment in western Germany.
    We had 100,000 in a year—not six months—and the hon. Gentleman is putting the crisis flags at the mast, and so is the Home Secretary. This is a confession of economic defeat by the Conservative Government. In these vigorous European economies, they are facing the problems of expansion and surmounting them. They are tackling the social problems involved in bringing in immigrants and filling the jobs. This is the right way to tackle this task—not to confess defeat in the miserable Bill which we are asked to tolerate tonight. That, I think, is our main answer, not only to the summary of the right hon. Gentleman's case, but our main answer to this Bill. If the Government had tackled some of the problems which immigration creates in the vigorous spirit which these other go-ahead countries have shown, there would never have been the need for the confession of failure which is involved in this Bill.
    Now, after days and weeks on this Bill during which, perhaps like the Home Secretary, I have spent scarcely an hour away from the Chamber, I am, so to speak, unable to see the wood for the trees. One gets like that at this stage of any Bill. I do not think we can all make sparkling contributions after the hard work we have put in, but there are one or two things I want to say. I want to say something about the voucher system. There is a big danger to which I direct the attention of the Home Secretary. We shall get into a situation in which immigrants will come here for particular jobs carrying vouchers in their hands.
    The grave danger that this country will face will be that we shall not only have a voucher system but "job reservation". We shall have jobs reserved for the poorer coloured. I shall quote from
    1218
    the Economist, which puts this in much better words than I could. That paper said:
    "No doubt it will be said that permits would always be granted liberally for Commonwealth citizens, at any rate in areas that are not already 'overcrowded with immigrants' and especially for jobs for which Englishmen find themselves increasingly too fastidious; already public transport undertakings, hospitals and local authority services could ill do without the West Indians, who perform unsavoury or unpopular duties. But if a 'work permit' system is formalised"—
    This was in July, 1961. The Economist was looking into the future—
    "the logical consequence of it could be job-reservation, differential wages, less favourable treatment of Commonwealth than of European citizens if Britain joins the common market, and all sorts of problems when the particular jobs for which new immigrants have been given work permits run out."
    The point which is being made is that we shall have a class of voucher-possessing coloured migrants labelled to to do the dirty work of our society. That is a very grave danger. I hope that the Home Secretary, in whose professions of liberal sentiment about this Bill I have some belief, if I may say so without trying to patronise, will keep a special eye on this problem. There is a very grave danger indeed once we differentiate between white and black, and differentiation is becoming inevitable between better jobs and dirty jobs in society. If that followed the harm done to the Commonwealth generally it would add another nasty blow to those which the Bill will have given to the concept of the Commonwealth as a whole.
    I put another point to the right hon. Gentleman about the job voucher system. Will he please see that the offer of the Minister of Labour with regard to consultation with overseas Commonwealth Governments is fully taken up to see that the flow of vouchers and information about jobs available in this country works to its fullest extent? Inevitably it will be the task of Commonwealth Governments under this Bill to help their intending emigrants to get in touch with jobs here, to put forward their skills here and in any other way to obtain the sort of vouchers which they will need.
    It is also important that the information possessed by the Ministry of Labour should be funnelled out overseas about skills which are needed here. Secondly,

    1219
    the Ministry of Labour should think about the point I made in Committee. It should co-operate with and coordinate the work of public bodies and public services in recruiting from areas such as the West Indies. This could be the one thing which could help to give the Bill a very good reputation in those parts of the world, if it is seen that we need hospital workers and so on. No one doubts that.
    I was listening to Dr. Joules speaking about Central Middlesex Hospital and telling us that 10 per cent., 20 per cent., 30 per cent. or 40 per cent. of different categories of workers in hospitals are coloured people, mainly West Indians. No one doubts the need to have them. If it is seen that the Ministry of Labour is behind schemes to get proper voucher procedures worked out and that people from the West Indies are put into touch quickly with jobs available in hospitals, public services and work for nationalised boards, that will do a great deal to ameliorate the bad effects of the Bill.
    I have been subjected to some misrepresentation in Birmingham because I moved an Amendment to probe the question of Irish immigration. I have been represented as wanting to keep the Irish out. That is the sort of misrepresentation which goes on by various bodies in Birmingham, some of which I could name. It has had a sort of mushroom and pernicious growth resulting from the activities of some hon. Members opposite. We on this side of the House want to make clear once again that we want the Irish to come in.
    Just as we like to see West Indians helping the National Health Service, we know that parts of the building trade are dependent on Irish labour. Parts of heavy industry in my constituency would be badly off without the strapping Irishmen who do a great deal of work in them. We need them all in, and they should have the opportunity to come while the jobs are available. On the other hand, we say it is monstrous—I say this in my constituency—to allow non-Commonwealth Irish in and to exclude the proud British citizens of the West Indies. How the Home Secretary could surmount that final hurdle of his conscience as related to the Bill is beyond us. I think it is the worst thing of all.
    1220
    One thing that has really heartened me has been the reaction to the Bill in the better circles as compared with the way in which the worst circles have made me disheartened. The sort of thing that is happening in Birmingham has got to go on. I have in my constituency a parish magazine which is called The Manor Outlook and is the parish newspaper of St. James's, Aston. It is a special edition of Birmingham Christian News made available in the form of a magazine. Under the heading of "Me and my neighbours" there is an article entirely devoted to preventing the growth of colour prejudice in that part of Birmingham.
    It also has articles about the way in which West Indians live, why we should be friends with West Indians, why West Indians have wild parties at night and disturb the neighbourhood, articles about crime and the extent to which coloureds are and are not to blame, and an article headed, "Disaster without them." The last named article shows how the essential services depend on immigrants.
    There is no doubt that the churches are to be congratulated for doing that kind of thing, but, as my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition said on Second Reading, the Government would have done much better to have spent £500,000 on that kind of thing in Britain than £500,000 in administering this Bill. That would have been a much better way of spending the money in this country at the moment. The forces unleashed by some hon. Members opposite are vicious racialist forces which many of us would like to see countered as much as possible by people such as I have mentioned and by the Government in education and propaganda.
    If we can work the machinery properly—and a number of us intend to bend our backs towards helping the Commonwealth to work this machinery to get the permits flowing and the vouchers issued—I make the guess that we shall get 50,000 migrants a year happily established in this country doing jobs and finding a proper welcome awaiting them. If we do that, the number will be the sort of number which was common in 1955, 1956, 1957 and 1958 and which, incidentally, went down of its own accord when there were

    1221
    no jobs available—and which would go down again if there were no jobs available.
    If we do that, we shall in two years reflect in this way, I suggest. We shall say to ourselves, "What a lot of trouble has been caused, what a lot of harm has been done to the British Commonwealth, what a great inflammation of race relations in this country there has been, and all for what a miserable result in the effect on the numbers of migrants". Would it not be better to leave the matter where it was and not interfere? Would it not have been better, during the last 12 months, if the speeches had been less strident about demanding legislation so that the numbers would not have shot up to over 100,000 but would have stayed at 50,000? Should we not be so much happier in two years with the present view of the British Commonwealth than with our observation of it after the working of the Bill?
    7.41 p.m.
    Mr. Humphry Berkeley: I am very glad to have an opportunity at this rather late stage to explain my own somewhat spasmodic support of the Bill. I was not fortunate enough to catch the eye of the Chair on Second Reading, and later I was the victim of what, I suppose, the Home Secretary might call the benign movement of the Closure by the Government Whips when we were discussing the Amendment dealing with the Irish question in which I was particularly interested.
    In common, I think, with almost everyone on this side of the House, I dislike the need for the Bill intensely. I am not wholly convinced of its necessity, although I feel that one must recognise that the immigration figures during the past two years have been very alarming. I am not sure that at least a large part of the increase has not been due to the campaign—I do not think that they will take offence if I call it that—which has been conducted by my hon. Friends the Member for Louth (Sir C. Osborne), the Member for Liverpool, Kirkdale (Mr. N. Pannell) and the Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak (Mr. Gurden). There is no doubt at all that, if one studies the pattern of the figures over the past seven or eight years, one finds that they continually seemed to adjust
    1222
    themselves quite naturally to the economic climate in this country until 1960 and 1961, at which time, of course, my hon. Friends' campaign was gaining ground.
    I say frankly that I have been much disturbed by two circumstances surrounding the introduction of the Bill. First, there was the quite obvious lack of genuine consultation between the Members of our Government and the members of Commonwealth Governments. Naturally, I accept that consultation does not necessarily mean going on talking until agreement has been reached, but I do not think that anyone can seriously doubt that the consultation which went on between our Government and Sir Grantley Adams and Mr. Norman Manley was perfunctory, to say the least.
    The other feature which disturbs me is that, despite the various statements which have been made from time to time that the Bill has been on the stocks for seven or eight years, it has been, in fact, produced with every apparent sign of haste and lack of thought. It is astonishing, if the Bill has been on the stocks for all these years, as we are told, that eight years ago some sort of research was not done into the position of the Irish. We are told now that by the time the Bill comes up for renewal in 1963 we shall know a great deal more about the Irish question than we do now. But if the research had already been done the figures would have been available. One cannot deny that, particularly in regard to the Irish, there has been a faint but, I think, perceptible air of musical comedy in the Government's handling of the Bill.
    I think I can claim to be as staunch a supporter of the Commonwealth concept as anyone in the House. During the past year, I have been to no less than eight Commonwealth countries. For obvious reasons, because of my interest in the Commonwealth, I have found the Bill difficult to support. There are two specific aspects of it which I find impossible to condone, and that is why I shall not be voting with the Government tonight.
    First, I cannot bring myself to support a Bill which discriminates in favour of aliens as against British subjects. This

    1223
    seems to me to run absolutely counter to any sort of Commonwealth concept which we have ever entertained and makes a mockery of the whole idea of Commonwealth citizenship. Secondly, I cannot bring myself to support a Measure which appears to discriminate in favour of white people as against coloured people. I shall elaborate these two charges.
    With regard to discrimination in favour of aliens, I invite the House to consider this. On the one hand, there is the Republic of Ireland, a Republic which voluntarily chose to leave the Commonwealth, a country which was neutral in the war, a country which denied us the use of the Treaty ports in the course of the war, the use of which would have been immensely valuable to us at the time, a country of which the present Head of State, President De Valera, actually called on the then German Ambassador to condole with him over the death of Hitler. Many of us have a great many Irish friends, as I have. I heard the speech made by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Epsom (Mr. Rawlinson) in which he praised the contribution made by individual Irishmen who served in Her Majesty's Forces during the war. I can well remember a most moving tribute being paid to these gallant volunteer allies of ours by my right hon. Friend the Member for Woodford (Sir W. Churchill) in his final broadcast as wartime Prime Minister. The fact remains, nevertheless, that the policies to which I have referred were carried out by the Government of Eire.
    One turns, in contrast, to the West Indies. As the hon. Member for Birmingham, Northfield (Mr. Chapman) has said, the West Indian people have an Intense personal loyalty to the Crown. Mr. Norman Manley has said that, when Jamaica becomes independent in August this year, she has no intention of becoming a Republic. Jamaicans attach great value to the Royal connection. They fought for us loyally during the war. Mr. Manley has said that, when Jamaica becomes independent, there will be no question of her being an uncommitted or neutralist country; she regards her interests as being firmly and securely with the West. More than that, as the hon. Member for Northfield said,
    1224
    West Indians, particularly Jamaicans, the ones I know best, are more English than the English; they regard this country with deep affection as their mother country.
    I just do not see how I can support this Bill in the light of the Government's declared intention that it will not be applied to the Republic of Ireland. I wish to emphasise that I have no hostility towards the Irish people or even towards the present Irish Government. It is essential that we should have good neighbourly relations with them, and therefore it is commonsense to treat the Republic as though it belonged to the Commonwealth, but I am not prepared to support a measure which gives the Irish Republic Commonwealth membership plus.
    As far as apparent discrimination in favour of whites is concerned, it has been said over and over again in the debates on the Bill—and therefore I do not have to spend very much time on it—that there are, as we all know, two basic sources of unskilled immigrant labour coming to this country. One is the Republic of Ireland and the other the West Indies. In 1961, 66,000 came from the West Indies. We do not know the exact figure from the Republic of Ireland. In an earlier debate the hon. Member for Northfield estimated it at 70,000. The Prime Minister of the Republic of Ireland has estimated it at 28,000, while the Home Secretary put the figure at somewhere between the two.
    The fact remains, however, that immigrant labour from Ireland constitutes the second largest total of the immigrant labour coming into this country. Immigrant labour from Ireland, for example, considerably exceeds that which comes from India or Pakistan. Either one takes the argument, which I think was taken by my hon. Friend the Member for Kirkdale that it is the actual weight of numbers which is too great and that we simply cannot accommodate such numbers, whether they are white or black, or one can take the other view and regard this in a strictly colour bar sense. But the Government are saying that, "The numbers are too great, but we will ignore the Irish, even if they are the second largest element, because of the difficulties of controlling them."

    1225
    Yet they are surprised when people turn round and say that the only possible interpretation that the outside world and the Commonwealth will put on this is that it is colour discrimination.
    Members of the Government have explained the Irish position in slightly different ways. The Home Secretary has always, it seems to me, expressed the view that it is desirable to control Irish immigration, but virtually impossible to do so. The Attorney-General, on the other hand, has conceded that it is possible to control Irish immigration but believes that for the time being it is not necessary to do so. I recall a speech he made in this House on 12th December last because it points to what I am saying. The Attorney-General said:
    "Having decided that the time has come when we should take a general power to exercise control over immigration, it is no use taking that power to put a fence round three sides of the United Kingdom and Northern Ireland if we do not have power to put up the fourth fence if required …
    If the Republic of Ireland imposed controls on immigration into the Republic similar to those in the Bill obviously it would not be necessary for us to impose controls over traffic from the Republic in order to control Commonwealth immigration. For that purpose, we can rely on our neighbour's fence."
    Later on, my right hon. and learned Friend said:
    "The Bill is right in Clause 1 in taking power to put a fence round Great Britain and Northern Ireland."
    He was then interrupted by the hon. Member for Northfield, who said that this could not be done, and the reply was:
    "Indeed one could do it. … As far as Commonwealth immigration goes, there is no need to do it if the Republic of Ireland legislates …"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 12th December, 1961; Vol. 651, c 254–262.]
    The implication behind this is twofold. First, that it does not very much matter having an uncontrollable inflow of immigrants from the Republic of Ireland. Secondly, that we are putting the Republican Irish in the position of acting as our agents in keeping out of the United Kingdom subjects of the Crown. That is something which I find intolerable and cannot possibly support.
    I want to ask the Attorney-General certain questions as to why control over immigration from the Republic of Ireland is as impossible as the Government
    1226
    appear to think. First, I do not suppose that anybody would suggest that we could not have immigration control on ships and aircraft coming to Britain from the Republic and, presumably, on aircraft going from the Republic to Belfast. We are now left with the problem of the land border.
    It has been said many times that the land border, at 180 miles long, is one of the shortest in the world. It has somewhat laughingly been compared with the border between the United States and Canada, which is about 5,000 miles long, and with the border between the United States and Mexico. It is, by any standard a land border of quite remarkable smallness in size and content.
    We can surely draw some comparison between immigration control and customs control. I am told that there is a reasonably effective customs control on the Ulster-Eire border. I do not think that it is suggested that so much smuggling goes on that there is no point in having any customs control. Customs control is managed by having, as far as I know, Customs checks on 16 of the main roads from the Republic into Northern Ireland and also at nine railway posts. Why cannot we put immigration control at these Customs points?
    We are told that there are in addition approximately 84 roads, tracks and paths of one kind or another. The Home Secretary said in an earlier debate that the real difficulty about trying to control the border is that the country is extremely rough and difficult. I can see that this does pose problems, but it poses problems to the illegal immigrant as much as to the immigration officer, because, the rougher and more difficult the countryside is, by definition the more hazardous it is for the immigrant to cross it.
    We should be clear in our minds what kind of people we are envisaging as immigrants. Plainly, if the Republic were some sort of concentration camp, then people would make every effort to crawl on their stomachs across extremely hazardous and difficult terrain to get from the Republic to Northern Ireland, but, as many of us know, the Republic is an extremely attractive and pleasant country, and I flatly refuse to believe that immigrants from the Republic who are

    1227
    disposed to enter the United Kingdom illegally are going to put themselves to the extreme discomfort of finding the most inaccessible and difficult part of the border in order to cross from one country to the other. Similarly, by the nature of things, if one is an immigrant and is going to another country to settle permanently, one must presumably take along the necessary luggage and impedimenta, possibly families and dependants. Is it suggested that all of these will be left behind?
    The Government have been altogether too casual in the replies they have given—or, rather, those they have not given—and while one would require reasonable immigration control to make it fairly difficult for someone to slip through, I would have thought that there was a valid comparison to be drawn between immigration control and Customs control. The Government do not need a Maginot Line fortification with every conceivable precaution. Nothing is escape-proof, as was shown by prisoner of war camps. Only reasonable safeguards are necessary, and this is a matter on which the Government have so far failed to give a satisfactory answer.
    Mr. Stanley R. McMaster: I have been trying to follow my hon. Friend's argument carefully, and I am sure that he would not wish to mislead the House. But I recollect the Home Secretary saying that if there was to be control it would be on the United Kingdom border. Surely the Home Secretary must have meant that there would be control on the Northern Ireland border, if there was, indeed, to be control?
    Mr. Berkeley: That is precisely what I am asking the Government. Why cannot they have some sort of reasonable control on the United Kingdom border—the border between the Republic and the six counties—taking into account the big roads, where there are Customs posts at the moment, and some of the smaller roads, where some form of immigration control might be introduced? The Government might be able to almost ignore the extremely difficult terrain.
    Having made a number of rather severe remarks about the Bill which I regard—even with what has been said
    1228
    and despite any improvements that might have been made—as an unsatisfactory Measure, I am sure that I speak on behalf of many hon. Members on both sides of the House when I say how greatly we are in the debt of the Home Secretary for the immense patience, courtesy and humanity he has shown throughout our discussions.
    By the instructions which he has issued to the immigration officers and has made available to hon. Members he has, at least, removed from my mind many doubts about the Bill and, however unsatisfactory it may be, I am sure that it will be administered in an enlightened and liberal way. But, frankly, I feel that whatever need there may be to control immigration, if the Irish position cannot be resolved more satisfactorily than it is at present, the Bill had better be dropped and, for that reason, I cannot support the Government tonight.
    8.3 p.m.
    Mr. M. Foot: The hon. Gentleman the Member for Lancaster (Mr. Berkeley) has made an extremely powerful speech and, no doubt, an extremely courageous one. He has torn to shreds one of the main features of the Bill, and I certainly do not wish to say anything which might detract from the effectiveness of his speech, even if I could.
    I would only comment on his argument about the distinction drawn in the Bill between aliens and members of the Commonwealth, and his remarks concerning Ireland. His logic is absolutely unchallengeable. If the Government were carrying out the Bill which they said at first they were attempting to carry out, the obstacles to preventing immigration across the Irish border could have been overcome. I do not believe that the Government's excuses hold water. But if the only way the Bill can be made logical is to set up a fresh barrier across the border between Ulster and Ireland it makes the Measure even worse.
    It would be an appalling thing if we set up new barriers to Irish people wishing to come to this country. I understand what the hon. Member for Lancaster said about the last war. No doubt everything he said was true. But the association between Britain and Ireland supercedes anything that happened in the last war,

    1229
    for it is an association going back over many centuries and, if we consider the past, we might think that they have a case against us instead of it being the other way round.
    It would be utterly deplorable if a Measure should be introduced to prevent Irish people from coming to Britain, particularly because of the contribution they have made, apart from other considerations, to our cultural life. If the only way the Bill can be made logical and fair is to introduce some prohibitions or limitations on Irish immigration, then that is a final condemnation of the Bill itself.
    The hon. Member for Lancaster put his case with extreme skill. He has asked for an answer to this Irish question and he adduced his arguments on this issue more effectively than we have so far heard from any hon. Member. That makes it all the more unlikely that he will get an answer to his question tonight. If the Government have not attempted to answer it before it is improbable that they will do so on Third Reading.
    When he began his speech earlier the Home Secretary paid compliments to the Ministers who had assisted him in getting the Bill through, and I am sure that those compliments were well deserved. They all did a hard job, but the performance of the Home Secretary was really the most remarkable. When he started I thought that I had never seen a Minister introduce a Bill on its Second Reading more ineffectively. In fact, I felt that he really did not believe in the Bill. As time has gone by—and as the hon. Member for Lancaster said—the Home Secretary has rescued the situation to some extent by his subsequent speeches, including the one he made today.
    The performance of the Home Secretary reminds me of the story in Victor Hugo's novel "Ninety-three" of the sailor who let loose a battering ram against a ship almost causing total shipwreck but who, at the last moment and by skilful manœuvre, managed to prevent the battering ram from causing irreparable disaster. As a result, the sailor was decorated—and then shot. If I were not an opponent of capital punishment that is the fate I would recommend for the Home Secretary. It
    1230
    would be adequate reward for what he has done for the country over this Bill.
    The chief method by which the Home Secretary has escaped from the worst odium the Bill had surrounding it when it was first introduced has been the publication of the immigration officers' instructions. It was plain to everyone that the Home Secretary did not intend to do that at the beginning at all. That was not in the Government's mind. It was never mentioned on Second Reading or at any time in our first debates. The matter was tossed into the discussion and it was a very subtle manœuvre on the part of the Home Secretary, but an astonishing way of conducting the passage of a Bill.
    I only wish that the Minister of Labour had followed the Home Secretary's example, because the worst and most muddled part of the Bill still is how the voucher system will operate and whether it will work fairly between one Commonwealth country and another. We also require to know how the Ministry of Labour proposes to deal with the many letters which, we understand, will pour in and the basis on which these letters will be selected. Unfortunately, the Minister of Labour has not revealed the details of how he will operate it in the same way as the Home Secretary was eventually persuaded to do by issuing the instructions.
    The Home Secretary said that the Government were having close discussions with other Commonwealth countries about the operation of the voucher system. Perhaps the Government can claim that they did not need to have consultations with Commonwealth countries about the voucher system earlier. I doubt whether that claim is justified, but I can understand it. As the hon. Member for Lancaster said, one of the most serious matters about the Bill is the question of consultation with Commonwealth countries. Nothing which has been said from the Government Front Bench throughout our debates has answered the charge made by the Opposition Front Bench from the beginning that the consultations with the Commonwealth countries were quite perfunctory, if they existed at all. If I were to say that the House has been consistently lied to by Ministers on the subject of consultations, I might be out of order. But I cannot

    1231
    help thinking it. Hon. Members have heard the excuses of the Government on this matter. We have had plentiful evidence contradicting what they say, not only from the West Indies, but from other Commonwealth countries.
    This was an entirely fresh Measure. There was never any need for a rush in introducing the Measure. Even if the Government thought that the Bill was urgent—they have not claimed that—if they proposed to take action which was entirely new in the history of the Commonwealth, they should have been especially careful about it. They should have taken into account all the considerations put forward by hon. Members on both sides, particularly about the West Indies. But there were no consultations.
    I propose to say a few words later about some other aspects as they affect the Commonwealth, but I do not think that anyone can seriously say that the Commonwealth will survive many more consultations like this. If this is to be the pattern of Commonwealth relations on subjects which most intimately concern Commonwealth countries and on which the economic lives of those countries depend, I do not think that any hon. Member would defend it, whatever may be his view about the Bill. I do not believe that the Government would claim that their consultations with the Commonwealth countries before the Bill was introduced were full, adequate and proper.
    My reason for thinking that is not that the Government did not want to consult the Commonwealth. I think that normally they would like to do so. There must have been some compelling reason why they did not do so in this case. This is what makes us so suspicious about the origin of the Bill. They wished to get it ready so that they could announce it at the Conservative Party Conference. Something happened between the debate in February last year, in which the Minister of State made out a powerful case against any form of immigration control, and just before the Conservative Party Conference which caused the Government to change their mind.
    They say that the reason why they changed their mind was the figures. I
    1232
    do not believe that. I know that the figures were increasing, but this has been in people's minds for a long time. If it was merely the figures which caused the Government to change their mind surely they could have said, "Because we think that consultation with the Commonwealth is so important, we will hold up the Bill and not even tell the Conservative Party Conference first about it. We set the interests of the Commonwealth even above those of the Conservative Party Conference". But they did not do that.
    Of all the reasons for the anger which the Bill has provoked, the question of the timing of it is one of the most remarkable aspects. My hon. Friends have referred to the aspect of the West Indies. Did not the Government know when they were introducing the Bill that the future of the West Indies and of the prospects of getting a Federation, or the question of what was to follow when the Federation ended, was uncertain and that it was a most critical moment in the life of the West Indies? Did not that fact weigh with them? Apparently, it did not.
    This Bill, which affects the West Indies primarily, was introduced at the very moment when political circumstances in the West Indies were more critical than they had been at any time since 1945.
    Mr. Nigel Fisher: For the record, it is the fact that the break-up of the West Indies Federation was due to the Jamaican referendum, which caused Jamaica to leave the Federation. That was at least a month before this Bill was announced.
    Mr. Foot: I understand that, but it does not alter my point. Everyone knew that, whichever way the referendum went, the situation concerning the Federation was very critical. As a result of the Federation not succeeding and going forward, many critical problems arose in the West Indies. I should have thought that that was a moment when the Government might have refrained from introducing the Bill. If they really had regard for the West Indies, they should have said, "Even though we think that there is an argument for the Bill, we will refrain from introducing it because of the commotion

    1233
    it will cause". That would have shown a better sense of timing. The Government did not do that. They said, "There is some urgent, passionate interest why we must do this, despite the effect that it may have on the West Indies".
    There is another consideration. The Government know even better than the rest of the House the concern that there is in many Commonwealth countries about what is to happen over the Common Market.
    Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Sir Robert Grimston): Order. I think that the hon. Gentleman is liable to get a little wide of the Question. We cannot discuss the Common Market on the Third Reading of this Bill.
    Mr. Foot: I was not attempting to discuss the merits or demerits of the Common Market. I was merely discussing the timing of the introduction of the Bill, which I think affects the attitude which hon. Members must have to the Bill and to its Third Reading.
    The Government not merely selected a moment to go ahead with the Bill despite the damage that it would do to the West Indies. They selected a moment when relations with this country and a whole series of Commonwealth countries were very difficult. If the Government really cared for the Commonwealth, I should have thought that, even though they believed that there was a case for the Bill, they would have said to themselves, "Because of the difficult relations which we have with many other Commonwealth countries who are already suspicious of what may happen to their interests if we go into the Common Market, we will hold our hand." There was a multitude of reasons why the Government, if they were concerned about the Commonwealth, could have said, "We will refrain from going ahead with this Measure."
    This is not a Bill which is supported by overwhelmingly powerful arguments. The hon. Member for Lancaster has shown that it can be torn to tatters. But even if others do not go as far as the hon. Member for Lancaster, there was still not an overwhelming case for the Bill in view of what the Government said only a few months before its introduction. There were many other
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    reasons for not having it, such as the damage it would do to the West Indies and to other Commonwealth relations, the injury which might be done to the faith which people have in future consultations between Britain and the Commonwealth. All these considerations were swept aside. The Government paid no heed to them. That is a terrible indictment.
    I know that hon. Members opposite sometimes taunt us on this side of the House with being newly discovered supporters of the Commonwealth. But the taunt is not very apt, since so many of the developments which have taken place in the Commonwealth in the past fifteen years have been developments for which hon. Members on this side of the House have argued for twenty, or thirty, or fifty years. Much of the development now taking place in the Commonwealth has been advocated by members of this party, so that there is no inconsistency. In fact, some of us may now think that the taunt is more legitimately the other way round. I do not say that about all hon. Members opposite. Indeed, it would be most ungracious to say so after the speech of the hon. Member for Lancaster.
    But it is true of some hon. Members opposite that, now that the Commonwealth is ceasing to have a colour bar and now that it is formed almost entirely, and soon entirely, of self-governing countries, now that it has become a civilised institution, it begins to lose its fascination for hon. Members opposite and they go whoring after other gods—[Laughter.] It is all very well for hon. Members opposite to laugh at what I am saying, but I do not believe that ten or fifteen years ago a Conservative Government would have introducted a Bill affecting the Commonwealth, as this does, with such perfunctory consultation and with such lack of regard for the other major issues in the scales. I do not believe that time and again we should have heard hon. Members opposite needling the association of the Commonwealth. But that is so today, and the hon. Member for Louth (Sir C. Osborne) is one of the chief offenders. Nothing pleases him more when he is not pursuing the colour bar than to make some snide remark about Canada's refusal to lower tariffs against this country, or something like that. He is only too happy to do it

    1235
    A change is taking place and that is why all of us on this side of the House, despite the improvements which have been made to the Bill, still regard it as a most squalid Measure. When it comes to the end of 1963, we shall wish not merely to re-examine it, but to wipe it off the Statute Book altogether. I hope that tonight my right hon. Friend who winds up for the Opposition will say that that is our purpose.
    8.23 p.m.
    Mr. Joseph Hiley: I shall try to bring the debate back to earth and I shall not apologise for an hon. Member of this House trying to speak for a moment for this rather than for some other country. The reasons for the Bill are perfectly simple and perfectly sound. It is most regrettable that we should have spent so many days and weeks delaying the Bill's arrival on the Statute Book. The exceptional number of immigrants arriving in recent weeks has focussed the attention of the people of this country on the real problem and on the real necessity for the Bill. It has demanded urgent attention and developments in recent weeks and months must surely justify to an even greater extent the necessity to control—not to exclude—the entry of Commonwealth immigrants.
    I shall not repeat the well-worn arguments which have so long been used, but I should like to pass on to the House one or two facts which I have obtained from personal contact with the sort of people about whom we are talking. Every Monday, I spend several hours in a mill situated between Leeds and Bradford. The queues of men, mainly Pakistanis, going to the mill and looking for jobs are an unhappy and miserable sight. I can well imagine that the hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. M. Foot) in some of his passionate speeches would plead for the miserable, unhappy unemployed, and I am certain that his heart would go out to these folk if he were able to come to the West Riding and see the queues of them who are searching for jobs but not succeeding.
    On Monday of last week, there were twenty-four at this little place looking for jobs, and I believe that a similar state of affairs exists at almost every
    1236
    mill in the West Riding. I asked some of these men whether before coming to this country they realised that the market was already saturated. I asked them why they had decided to come. I got the same answer from most of them and it is perfectly clear that these unfortunate, illiterate people, often unable to speak English, are being grossly exploited by men of their own race.
    When they come here, they very quickly go to the National Assistance Board from which they receive £2 18s. 6d. a week, although they each have to pay £1 4s. for a single bed. I do not know how many men are in each room, but I do know that the beds are often let not only at night, but during the day as well. There has grown up a system by which some men have to pay a orate. I believe that it is £5, because a man at one mill the other day went to the office and asked for an advance on his wages within the first two days of working at the place. The advance was given but, contrary to the management's expectations, it was not to provide food and lodging, but to pay £5 to the entrepreneur—if we can call him that—who had been responsible for bringing him and thousands of others into the country.
    The laxity in the granting of passports to these people is amazing and today there are thousands in Bradford who have faked or false passports. These men are being exploited. They realise that they have to have some sort of document—which they cannot read—and they pay for these false documents, although I am amazed how they get into the country and how they have been getting in. Perhaps my right hon. Friend will have something to say about that later.
    Mr. F. H. Hayman: Will the hon. Gentleman tell the House whether he has drawn his right hon. Friend's attention to these facts?
    Mr. Hiley: That has not been necessary. It has come to light as some of these people have amassed some money and sought to go back home. Many of them have been going back, although I suppose not in tremendous numbers. It was only when they realised that their

    1237
    passports were false that the problem arose. I do not suppose that they had realised it until then. They are now taking steps to regularise the position.
    It is the practical problems which the House should consider for a while. The absorption into a mill or a factory of men who have never had any industrial experience, who have come from places where there is no hereditary industrial experience—that counts for a lot, as hon. Members opposite will concede—and who cannot even speak our language, produces problems and headaches for those responsible for looking after these men inside our factories. There is no question of a colour bar in the minds of those who seek to regularise this position. I am thinking of a foreman in a mill who has said, "Rather than accept the responsibility of trying to absorb any more of these people at the moment, I am prepared to give up my job".
    Hon. Members opposite, especially the hon. Member for Ebbw Vale, do a great disservice to this country and those employed in industry. Hon. Members opposite have no conception of the practical problems. Those who have been brought face to face with the problem—and I am one of those people—are quite impatient because it has taken so long. We are glad that this is the last day of this ramble. I am sorry that at least one of my hon. Friends has spoken in a way which displays his complete lack of knowledge of the subject. I assure my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary that most sensible people will welcome the passing of this most necessary Measure.
    8.30 p.m.
    Mr. Laurence Pavitt: The hon. Member for Pudsey (Mr. Hiley) has made part of our case for us. There is no question of hon. Members on this side not being aware of the difficulties. From the time the Bill came up for Second Reading our contention has been that the Bill is the wrong way to go about tackling them. This is why we are opposing the Bill, even at its last stage on Third Reading. The hon. Member said that my hon. Friends can have no conception of the practical difficulties involved. I invite him to come to my constituency in Willesden at any time. I predict that I have a larger number of immigrants than he has in his native
    1238
    Pudsey. We have been tackling this problem for many years.
    The Bill aggravates the constructive measures we have tried to take over a period of years. This is a further reason why we continue to oppose it. Like my hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. M. Foot), I welcome the intervention of the hon. Member for Lancaster (Mr. Berkeley). It saves me from taking up the time of the House by talking about the Southern Ireland situation, because the hon. Member put it far more concisely and clearly than I can. The case needs answering when the right hon. Gentleman replies, for this makes it quite clear that the Bill is a colour bar Bill.
    The proceedings on the Bill have been long. I have had the impression from the outset that this is the nearest thing to do-it-yourself that this Government have produced since I have been a Member of the House. We had, especially in the early stages, what seemed to be a considerable amount of brilliant improvisation from the Government Front Bench.
    I join my hon. Friends and hon. Members opposite in paying tribute to the performance of the Home Secretary throughout our discussions. As the Bill has proceeded his performance has become even more polished. Nevertheless, I have had the feeling all the time that the Bill, its implications and its detailed machinery have never been thoroughly thought out. This was most clearly brought out last Thursday when we examined the voucher system. In reply to an intervention of mine, the Minister of Labour said that the Government were still looking into it. I have gained the impression that, even when the House has passed the Bill, a good deal of work remains to be done before this vast and complicated machinery can be effective.
    We on this side have been sad because the latter stages have been under the shadow of the Guillotine, especially since on two occasions when the Guillotine fell the House was operating at its best. We were trying to defend a small individual against the whole rigour of the huge State. On two such occasions, because of the Guillotine we were unable to press the safeguards we were trying to write into the Bill to meet quite detailed but very important circumstances for an individual caught up

    1239
    in this vast machinery which is to be set up at the ports to keep him out.
    Another characteristic of the Committee stage of the Bill was that most of the points we advanced were designed to deal with instances in which the Bill could be unfair. In spite of our best endeavours, it goes through unaffected. It still discriminates. This is shown only too clearly by categories A, B and C. for employment vouchers. It is category C—the most unskilled, the person who perhaps can make a vast contribution to our economy—who is to come in for most of the discrimination.
    I welcome the Home Secretary's suggestion that we shall be able to continue to prod the Government on the matter of the numbers of immigrants by Questions, but it seems to me that we have managed to get more out of the Home Secretary while amending a Bill than ever we do at Question Time. So frequently when he answers my own Questions he seems to understand so clearly what one is trying to get at and seems to identify himself so clearly with the objective and gives such an answer that I sit back glowing to think that I have managed to persuade the Home Secretary to go so far with me, and it is not until I read HANSARD next day that I find that in fact he has not gone very far at all. However, during the stages of this Bill he has been able to amend some provisions, and I think the most important one is that now we are going to look at it again at the end of 1963.
    The crux of the argument against the Bill is that although it is claimed that by limiting the numbers of immigrants we shall then be able to regulate the conditions, social and economic, so as to absorb and integrate the people who come here, I think the Bill does precisely the opposite. True, it touches the matter of employment, but, as everybody who has sat through the proceedings on this Bill knows, it does not touch the much greater issue of housing. Places where employment is high are natural magnets, and, naturally, it is in places where there is the most employment that we get the greatest pressure on housing accommodation, and no part of the Bill touches that problem.
    I think it was the Attorney-General who said at one stage that this Bill was
    1240
    not quite so bad because perhaps four-fifths of the people already coming might still come, but if all those four-fifths come to Willesden, West I shall be in just as much of a problem as now, because there is no question here of dispersing the people and of distributing them evenly to absorb them generally into the economy.
    So the Bill misses an opportunity, and not only does it miss an opportunity, but it means that organisations such as the Willesden International Friendship Council, consisting of 50 per cent. of immigrants and 50 per cent. of local inhabitants, and which is doing work of integration day in and day out, will have to tackle just as many new problems which arise. They find themselves disheartened and dismayed, at the impression this Bill gives that immigrants are not wanted.
    Of course, there is prejudice. Always we have to meet prejudice, but I think it is the first time for many years that a British Government have tried to incorporate prejudice into a Bill. In my own constituency, of course, there is this difficulty. One finds discriminatory advertisements for lodgings. Out of 550 over a period of three months 104, or 18·9 per cent., said: "No coloureds" or "No West Indians". In one case it said, "No coloureds. No Welsh." I do not quite know the relevance of the Principality.
    We have been spending money, time and energy by local voluntary organisations co-operating with local statutory authorities in order to try to solve the problem. We have got that council at work, and the local borough council spends money on employing a welfare officer, and on employing him full time, engaged in this work of conciliation and integration without any colour prejudice. He happens to be a Jamaican.
    If the money which is to be spent on operating the ramshackle machinery of this Bill could be canalised instead into the work of integration, not only could we help solve the problem but we could create the kind of atmosphere which there should be for a family—a family of nations. I share with hon. Members opposite who have spoken about it their affection for the West Indians. I do not know that I accept the view of my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham,

    1241
    Northfield (Mr. Chapman), who would like a kind of favoured treatment for them. I think that in a family the essential thing is to make no favourites. This applies to a family of nations. What we should like to see is a clear conception of mutual working together, an integration, of all the nations which comprise the Commonwealth.
    Those of us who have travelled in India have always been astounded, when we have discussed matters with our Indian friends, to hear them talk of "home", Britain, a place that they have never been to. I remember one man in Delhi telling me that he hoped eventually to come home and to live in the cantonment of Portsmouth. They have a feeling, which people in this country do not understand, that Britain is their home, and that the words "Mother Country" mean what they say. They now find that the Bill puts up barriers and establishes first-class and second-class citizens of the Commonwealth. This will inevitably cause the very light and silky bonds which bind the Commonwealth together to stretch almost to breaking point.
    Those of us who are seeking the creation of one world, and of one community or brotherhood, irrespective of race, colour or creed, have hitherto seen the British Commonwealth as one of the main media for practising what we preach—a place in which better relationships between one nation and another can be brought about, a prototype from which the rest of the world may learn. But now, when economic difficulties arise in other Commonwealth countries, at the very first call to "mother" that some of our Commonwealth people make, when they want to come home, "mother" says "Yes, four-fifths of you can come, but a gate will be put up to stop the other one-fifth coming in."
    It is a deplorable state of affairs. It is a black day when this Bill is given its Third Reading. I have said before that those of the hon. Gentlemen opposite who know most about the problem are the most sad about the Bill. It is only those who have come suddenly to it, and approach it from a subjective point of view, who are glad. I hope that in 1963 many hon. Members opposite will agree with us that the Bill should be
    1242
    wiped off the Statute Book, and that we should then bend our energies to tackle the problem in the right way.
    8.42 p.m.
    Mr. W. R. van Straubenzee: The House always listens with great attention when the hon. Member for Willesden, West (Mr. Pavitt) addresses it. I doubt whether any hon. Member on either side of the House would want to diverge from that part of the hon. Member's speech in which he rightly reminded us of the immense values of the Commonwealth link. It is from that point of view that I wish to start my speech, and I shall answer some of the points that the hon. Member made as I go along.
    I have a feeling that the hon. Member was in the Chamber when I was fortunate enough to catch Mr. Speaker's eye during the debate on the Gracious Speech. I then made what I realise is an obvious statement, but which I believe bears constant repetition. I said that one of the greatest problems facing us—and perhaps it is the greatest problem in the long-term—is not the question of economic survival, or such comparatively narrow questions as the European Economic Community; it is how to survive in a world dominated by colour On that occasion I ventured to express some views about the Bill which we are now debating, which had just been announced in outline in the Gracious Speech. I was thus one of the first back benchers—certainly on this side of the House—to do so.
    I said—and I have no reason to change a word—that on moral grounds, which I feel very strongly but have no wish to parade, any more than any other hon. Member would wish to do so, and also on grounds of sheer self-interest, deriving from the problem that I sought to outline, I could not bring myself to support legislation which either was or appeared to be discriminatory, in terms of colour. I doubt whether more than a fraction of hon. Members would willingly dissent from that view. That was the standpoint from which I examined the Bill.
    Is it not true to claim that as a people, of all parties, classes and religion, we are singularly free, compared with many others, of racial prejudice? I do not think that any hon. Member has any cause to be ashamed but has every

    1243
    reason to be proud of our contribution to race relations throughout the world. It is true that we have a very small percentage who glory in stirring racial prejudice, whether it be against a Jew or against the coloured, but if we have them they only stand out in sharp contrast with the enormous numbers of their brethren who hold such conduct to be utterly despicable.
    But as a practical people we have to face the fact that ordinary men and women of good will, not persons full of racial prejudice at all, who live in the ordinary homes of the country and particularly in certain parts of the country, are increasingly nervous and fearful of what they believe to be, rightly or wrongly, an increasing build-up of persons coming into the country. I cannot see any reason to deny that some of that fear was concentrated on the immigrant who could be identified because of the colour of his skin. I think that these fears and anxieties led or could have led to panic measures and on at least two occasions, which none of us wants to dwell upon, they led to incidents of a nature which besmirched our whole tradition in these matters.
    I have a reservation to which I want to come in a moment, but the case I want to argue, therefore, is that it is a positive contribution to race relations in this country for the ordinary person upon whom, as the hon. Member for Willesden, West so rightly says, we depend, to feel that the immigration which is henceforth to take place shall be controlled and that he will not be faced with a massive influx which raises in him deep fears and anxieties.
    I believe that the Bill can be argued strongly as a contribution to race relations, and I could not underline more what the hon. Member for Willesden, West has just said and what the hon. Member for Birmingham, Northfield (Mr. Chapman) has strongly emphasised, that it does not rest with the Government or the Opposition or the House or Members of Parliament; it rests with the ordinary units which make up out social life, our churches, our women's clubs and men's clubs to show this in a practical way. Furthermore, the Bill is applied to men and women whether they be white or whether they be coloured.
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    I have a note of criticism which I shall strike in a moment, but it should be said by persons like myself who are critical of aspects of the Bill that it was a courageous step on the part of the Government to apply the Bill firmly to Canadians, Australians, New Zealanders and so on equally with Nigerians and Ghanaians. I do not share the view but I can see that there is an argument for saying that it would have been wiser to narrow the control solely to persons of colour. I reject that argument immediately, and the Government have not done anything of the sort. It will come as something of a shock to our brothers and sisters in the white-populated countries when they find themselves subject to the controls in the Bill.
    It was doubtless for the reason that they felt it essential to appear to be, as well as actually, avoiding race discrimination that the Government applied the Bill to Southern Ireland. It must be reiterated that by Clause 1 (4), which many of us have discussed to and fro, both here and elsewhere, Southern Ireland is firmly written into the Bill. To me, that makes it all the more regrettable and all the more difficult to understand that, having taken those powers, it has been the Government's intention to announce in parallel that, at present at least, they do not intend to use them.
    A powerful case was argued by my hon. Friend the Member for Lancaster (Mr. Berkeley), and I certainly do not propose to tread the same ground. I recognise the difficulty of controlling Southern Irish immigration. I am not suggesting that it is an easy matter or something to enter into lightly, but none of the Bill and none of the intricate detailed proposals in the White Paper, which has been widely commended, is easy either. It was a major step to take and this has been recognised.
    I differ from one of my hon. Friends who spoke earlier, in that for my part I accept as out of the question a form of control from Southern Ireland which requires our colleagues and friends from Ulster to have some form of identity card or disc. My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary made it as clear as words can make it that if any form of control is imposed from Eire, it will be between Ulster and Eire, which, as I understand, would obviate the anxieties which, quite

    1245
    rightly, my hon. Friends representing Ulster constituencies feel deeply.
    Therefore, the Government were faced with a difficult matter of balance of judgment. They were faced, on the one hand, with the necessity for showing clearly that they were not motivated, as I accept without question that they were not, by the smallest taint of racial prejudice or by the purely practical difficulty of controlling Southern Irish immigration, on the other hand. I wonder, however, whether the difficulties are so great. I wonder even more after listening to the penetrating analysis from my hon. Friend the Member for Lancaster.
    When I am in doubt in that sort of problem, when I see the difficulties of both sides—and I can see those difficulties—I come down on a policy which carries one a very long way in life. I come down in favour of my friends. I support those who have nobly supported me. It is tragic—and I use the word deliberately—that of all people to whom we should be showing, inadvertently, in this way some form of better treatment, it should be the Southern Irish of all people who stand in that position, a people—a Government at least, and, I believe, substantially a people—who took every opportunity of stabbing at us at a time when we were at our weakest, who willingly left their lights ablaze when merely to extinguish them would have helped, who refused us aid in material ways and who have always, as it seemed to me in subsequent years, sought to get all the benefits of Commonwealth membership without any of its obligations.
    Mr. A. Bourne-Arton: If my hon. Friend is talking about the people as opposed to the Government, I trust that he will not forget the citizens of Southern Ireland who fought with us in the war.
    Mr. van Straubenzee: I am obliged to my hon. Friend, because that was precisely my next note. Apart from his natural abilities, my hon. Friend is clairvoyant also.
    I recall well a contribution on this matter from my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Epsom (Mr. Rawlinson), to which reference has been made and to whom, needless to say, in accordance with the normal courtesies—which have not always been observed
    1246
    on the other side of the House in these debates—I gave notice that I would refer. My hon. and learned Frend made tremendous play about the contribution which the Southern Irish had made and I understand that my hon. Friend the Member for Darlington (Mr. Bourne-Arton) feels similarly. I think that with very honourable exceptions, the men who came did so as hired mercenaries. They did not come here imbued with the spirit in which we are fighting. [An HON. MEMBER: "What is the good of all this?"]
    I do not consider for a moment that the arguments put up in that way obviate or make any difference to the particular case which I seek to put before the House. This is a matter on which, I repeat, I feel very deeply and strongly, just as strongly as, apparently, other hon. Members feel in a different sense. That is why the House will perhaps understand that when I contrast that behaviour and background with those who, at great sacrifice to themselves, not only during wartime but in peacetime and during the time of rationing, as has been well said with authority from the other side of the House by those who were then in office, one does not feel very proud.
    What we have done has been to enter into a compact. It is a quite simple compact. We have said to Southern Ireland, "If you will legislate to control our immigration, we will not operate the powers we have to control yours." This is not a compact of which I am proud, nor one—
    Mr. Alan Beaney: Will the hon. Gentleman say what he means by "we"?
    Mr. van Straubenzee: "We" in this sense means the Government. I am making the point that this is a compact which I do not like and which I do not feel able to support.
    I personally believe in the outlined purposes of the Bill, and that is why I think it should be applied, if applied at all, to all and not merely to some. I listened anxiously when the Bill was introduced on Second Reading. I made the strongest representations I could in the ways that are open to hon. Members on both sides, and I was much reassured, as I thought, by the words used, I am sure deliberately, by my right hon.

    1247
    Friend the Minister of Labour when he replied. That is why I voted for the Second Reading.
    I tried to catch the eye of the Chairman on Clause 1, but, like many of my hon. Friends, I had my head chopped off by my right hon. Friends on the Front Bench. It made obvious good sense, holding the views that I do hold, to vote for Clause 1, because it gave the particular powers which I want operated. I have consistently and positively voted with the Government, and, however inadequately, have tried at various stages to assist in the actual operation of the mechanics of the Bill.
    I have listened carefully to my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary reassuring us, as he has done with great frankness—and with others I pay my tribute to him for the way in which the issue has been handled and the courtesy with which he has always been prepared to listen to representations such as those from me and from others. When I heard him reiterate that it was not the Government's intention to impose the same restrictions and controls as they were imposing on others then, with no sense of pleasure, it was clear to me that this was not a Bill which I could properly support.
    9.0 p.m.
    Mr. James MacColl: The hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr. van Straubenzee) began his speech by saying that in this country we have singular freedom from race prejudice. I am not sure that in the remarks which followed the hon. Member quite practised what he preached.
    I rather thought that a summary of his speech could be in the words of the advertisement quoted by my hon. Friend the Member for Willesden, West (Mr. Pavitt), "No coloureds, no Welsh need apply," but I should alter it to, "No Irish need apply." The fact is that we are singularly free from race prejudice, at a distance. So long as people of different races and colours from ours are safely removed from our doorsteps, our streets and, perhaps, our factories, we can be tolerant towards them, but as soon as they come into areas where we are vitally affected in our daily life we find it a great deal more difficult. That is the danger of this Bill. One has either
    1248
    to be on one side or the other. There is no room for being half way. The problem is far too critical.
    I agreed with the hon. Member for Wokingham when he reminded us of what he said in the debate on the Address, that the vital issue facing the country today—and indeed, one might say facing Christian civilisation—is, what is to happen to the new resurgent Afro-Asian countries of the world? That is the great moral issue and this Bill is directly relevant to it. The hon. Member came out on the right side in saying that he would not support the Bill, so I do not want to make things more difficult for him, but I think hon. Members should search their consciences as to whether in the light of these great issues they feel that this Bill is at all needed and practicable, or that it will achieve the job for which I gather it is proposed to use it.
    The hon. Member for Pudsey (Mr. Hiley) and the hon. Member for Liverpool, Kirkdale (Mr. N. Pannell) complained that we have been too long in getting this Bill through, that we have spent from November until now examining it with unnecessary delay. It took us many centuries to build up our Commonwealth. If we are to strike at the roots of the Commonwealth I do not think that from November until the end of February is too long to take to examine the implications of what we are going to do. I should not in any way feel the least guilty about the time we have taken in examining the Bill.
    The hon. Member for Kirkdale is not in his place. Therefore, in his absence, I shall not make some of the remarks I was going to make about him. I shall mention only one thing that he said. I think he showed a surprising change. I felt that the months have not been wasted. The hon. Member seemed to have reformed a little, because he now said there was no ground for saying that immigrants were more criminal than other people. He fell back on the figures he quoted about living on immoral earnings. He went on to say that that includes the Irish, but the Irish can be deported under Part II of the Bill. I believe that is quite nonsense. If we deport the Irish, what happens? They come back on the next boat.
    If we do not have any protection at the Irish ports, and we are told we are

    1249
    not to have that surveillance, of course it is merely bringing the law into contempt. The court will solemnly make a recommendation and pass it to the Minister of State. The Minister of State will get out his quill pen and write, "Let this be carried out", and the unfortunate Irishman will be taken to Holyhead and deported to Dublin. He will go down to the next boat and come back again. How can he be stopped? If there is an answer to that dilemma, the same means by which he can be stopped can be used to prevent others coming in.
    We may say that if he comes up on another offence it will be discovered that he is illegally in the country and can be punished for that, but that sanction applies if someone comes to the country from the Commonwealth without permission. He can be sentenced to six months' imprisonment. Therefore, if it is possible to enforce deportation, it is possible to enforce these restrictions on immigration. That is the dilemma, and, as far as I can see, there is no way out of it for the Government. Either they will seriously enforce Part I of the Bill against the Irish or they will not. We ought to have a clear answer.
    The Home Secretary gave us his answer, but, as someone said on the benches opposite, there is an air of comic opera about the Government's attitude. I thought it rather like the succession to the Kingdom of Barataria. It is perfectly clear that the Irish are either in or out. There is no doubt about that. There is room for doubt about whether they are in or out.
    This is not the way in which one should, in an adult legislature, deal with one of the most important of constitutional Bills, a Bill which takes away rights which have been inherent within the Commonwealth for generations. The matter should not be left in this state of dubiety, when no one knows what is to happen to the Irish people.
    The Home Secretary told us something. We all know that he is the master of the veiled phrase and the delicate innuendo. I thought that the phrase he used today was one of the best he has produced. "This Bill," said the right hon. Gentleman—I can hardly read my own writing; I feel that the right hon. Gentleman deserves better handwriting than mine—"is well designed to serve
    1250
    an inescapable purpose". The purpose of the Bill is like the position of the Irish, just a little obscure. What is this inescapable purpose it is designed to serve? I suspect that the purpose is the muting of Kirkdale, the muting of Louth and the muting of Selly Oak for the sake of party unity.
    I believe that that is what the right hon. Gentleman meant. He meant to say, "I know that the Bill is a strange mixture of inconsistencies, indecisiveness and inconclusiveness, but that does not matter. It will go down all right at the next Tory Conference, and the pinpricks I have been getting will stop". The right hon. Gentleman is too shrewd a manipulator of Parliamentary matters to have lent the weight of his great prestige to the Bill except for that purpose.
    There has been a great deal of talk about housing and about the very serious overcrowding there is in areas associated with immigration. Anyone who lives in one of our big towns knows about it. The Government spokesman—I think it was the Under-Secretary of State—replying to an Amendment moved by my hon. Friend the Member for Brixton (Mr. Lipton), let the cat out of the bag. He advised the House, very sensibly, to reject my hon. Friend's Amendment. I think that he was quite right to do that, but he said that the Bill is to deal with labour and employment, not to deal with housing, and the Amendment was quite inconsistent with the general layout of the Bill. That was said on behalf of the Government, and, of course, it is perfectly true.
    The whole emphasis of the Bill is on the single issue of employment. Health is covered by other legislation and could be dealt with independently. The main purpose of the Bill is to deal with people coming in to compete for jobs. The Government, as has been said so often, have got so bogged down with industry and production in low gear that they now face serious unemployment in large parts of the country.
    The hon. Member for Pudsey told us a heart-rending story about queues of Pakistanis outside the mills waiting for jobs. What he did not tell us was how long they were there before they got a job. Of course, when people come to this country they have to look for work. There is nothing surprising in that. The

    1251
    important question is whether they find it or not. The hon. Gentleman did not tell us. He did say that those who were dissatisfied with conditions in this country went back to Pakistan. The hon. Member explained that it did not matter about these people having forged passports, because, when they wished to go back to Pakistan, the forgeries were discovered and put right.
    This shows that what we on this side of the House say is true. An economic law works in this matter. People do not come from these countries to our cold climate for the fun of the thing. They come to find jobs, to settle down and to bring up their families. If they do not find the opportunity to do these things, they go back to their own countries. That is what has happened in the case of the Pakistanis, and what happened in the case of the West Indians in 1957 and 1958.
    It is clear that the Bill is not really required to deal with unemployment, because that will adjust itself. There may be a case for saying that it is needed to deal with social questions. I do not want to join in throwing bricks at the unfortunate Irish, but nobody can believe that, if we allow free Irish immigration and stop Commonwealth immigration, that will have any effect on the demand on our social services. Whatever demand there is for our maternity services, whatever evidence there is about delinquency or overcrowding—all these problems involved in people coming over are just as great, if not greater, in the case of the Irish as they are in the case of any Commonwealth immigrants. To try to pretend that the Bill is needed to tackle grave social problems by stopping people coming over regardless of the rules by making them obtain job vouchers, while excluding from it the main group of people involved who come here and use our services, makes the whole thing complete nonsense.
    It makes me feel profoundly sad that the Government, instead of putting their great weight behind the principle that we must at all costs preserve the sense of unity and family within the Commonwealth, at this time, of all times—when we are faced with the likelihood of many countries in Africa and
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    Asia saying that white people are hypocrites and exploiters who say one thing and do the other—have chosen instead to strike at the roots of Commonwealth freedom of immigrants. Is there some desperate need for the Bill? It is perfectly clear that there is not.
    I hesitate to ridicule the Bill too much, because I do not think that it is quite true that it will be ineffective. It will work rather like the Rent Act. When it first comes into operation, there will be liberalism and good humour in the Home Office. People will be allowed in easily and they will say, as they did about the Rent Act, "These Labour people cried before they were hurt. It is not really as bad as they pretended it was going to be." After a while, just as they did with the Rent Act, they will begin to feel the pinch, but then it will be too late to do anything about it. In a few years, when this debate is forgotten, they will feel the real pinch and danger of this Measure.
    I hope that many hon. Members opposite, before going into the Lobby to vote for the Bill, will think about the great issues at stake. The Bill is not merely a trivial piece of party manipulation to quieten dissentient voices. I understand the problem of the criticism directed against hon. Members opposite by their supporters. We have the same criticism levelled at us by people who say that we on this side of the House are taking the wrong line. But all hon. Members must set their faces firmly against this insidious kind of surrender. Therefore, I trust that those hon. Members opposite who, like the hon. Member for Lancaster (Mr. Berkeley), have the vision to see the significance of the Commonwealth, will hesitate before they vote for the Bill tonight.
    9.15 p.m.
    Lieut.-Colonel J. K. Cordeaux: I am sure that almost all hon. Members on both sides of the House are now profoundly grateful that the discussions on the Bill are nearly at an end. The people most thankful are probably those, like myself, who are ardent supporters of it, for it is not a particularly easy Bill to advocate.
    As anyone who has listened to the speeches made by the hon. Gentleman the Member for Salford, West (Mr. C. Royle) and the hon. Gentleman the

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    Member for Birmingham, Northfield (Mr. Chapman) this afternoon or on previous occasions will fully recognise, in advocating restrictions on immigration one is accused of selfishness and all uncharitableness, lacking the spirit of the Commonwealth and, worst of all, of colour prejudice. I sometimes feel that while it is comparatively easy to bear these charges when they are levelled against one by people who have some experience of the problems involved, it is almost intolerable when they are levelled—as they often are—by some hon. Members who, I feel, do not really have a proper appreciation of the problems involved in their own constituencies. Even if they have such an understanding they often do not have the experience of living in constituencies where immigration has been most intense during the last five or ten years.
    It is particularly difficult to advocate immigration restrictions for those of us who know something about the Commonwealth and who have travelled in it. I appreciate only too well, as many hon. Members have pointed out, the very great sense of loyalty there is in the Commonwealth among the ordinary people towards the Crown. Many of them look upon this country as their home, even though they have never been here.
    I felt that very much about a year ago when I was a member of a delegation to Sierra Leone and Gambia. When we visited small schools in the remote parts of the Protectorates, it was often the case that the first thing one saw on entering a school was a picture of the Queen on the wall. Often there was also a picture of these Houses of Parliament. Yes, there can be no doubt about that loyalty.
    I always recall a conversation I had with Dr. La Corbiniere, the Deputy Prime Minister of the former West Indies Federation, as I suppose we must now call it. He came with Mr. Manley to Nottingham some time after we had had the racial riots there. I sat next to him at a luncheon given by the Lord Mayor, and we argued about our respective points of view—myself arguing in favour of limiting immigration and Dr. La Corbiniere arguing, equally strongly, against it. I used the well-known argument
    1254
    and said, "Well, after all, almost every country in the Commonweath has restrictions on immigration and they seem to work all right." He replied—and I know that he will not mind my repeating what he said—that I was wrong. "The situation is quite different," he said, and added, "You see, if you cut off a man's arm or leg the man will go on living—but the arm or leg will die." I do not know whether one should follow up that medical analogy too closely, but it illustrates the way in which so many people in the Commonwealth, coloured and otherwise, really look upon Britain as their home.
    I am certain that all hon. Members—and this has been shown during our discussions on the Bill—are imbued with that spirit of the Commonwealth. Where we differ so much is that people who attack the Bill believe that it is a blow against the spirit of the Commonwealth. Those were almost the exact words used by the hon. Gentleman the Member for Widnes (Mr. MacColl) a few minutes ago. People like myself believe, equally strongly, that the Bill is going to do a great deal of good for that Commonwealth spirit. Above all, we believe that not merely will it be of benefit to the people of this country, but that it will be of even more benefit to the immigrants now with us and to those who are still to come here.
    For that reason, I am disappointed that throughout the course of the Bill my right hon. Friends who have been guiding it through its long stages have always prefaced their speeches with apologies for its introduction. I said just now that it is difficult and in some ways distasteful to advocate control of immigration, but that does not mean in any sense that we should apologise for doing so or suggest that the Bill will do anything but good.
    For instance, when my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary spoke on Second Reading, he began in this way:
    "It is only after long and anxious consideration and a considerable reluctance that the Government have decided to ask Parliament for power to control immigration from the Commonwealth."
    When he finished his speech, he said:
    "It would have been perfectly easy just to go on watching the situation, but the Government have preferred, admittedly after hesitation, to take a course which is as distasteful

    1255
    to them as it is to many of their critics."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 16th November 1961; Vol. 649, c. 687 and 705.]
    The same line was taken by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour when he wound up. He began his speech by saying:
    "I think that the right hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well that the Government and others who are prepared to support the Bill do so as an unpleasant duty …"
    When he finished his speech, he said:
    "As I said at the beginning, it is not pleasant to have to introduce this Bill. The Government dislike, but in our opinion must face, the conclusion that we have at last been forced to reach."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 16th November 1961; Vol. 649. c. 803 and 810.]
    Instead of dealing with the Bill in that way, it would be better if people who believe in it as strongly as I do emphasised what we are absolutely convinced are the very good points about it and the great benefits which, in my opinion at least, it will certainly bring to all.
    My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary said that the Government had introduced the Bill
    "… only after long and anxious consideration".
    Certainly that consideration was long. The hon. Member for Salford, West said that the Bill was forced on the Government, to start with, by an unholy trinity of the hon. Members for Louth (Sir C. Osborne), Liverpool, Kirkdale (Mr. N. Pannell) and Birmingham, Selly Oak (Mr. Gurden) and, he added, a few others. No doubt I was one of the few others. Certainly I have been urging the necessity for the Bill for 3½ years—since our trouble in Nottingham. It is certainly untrue to suggest that the Bill has been forced through by the Government or by politicians and that it did not stem from the genuine feelings of the people of this country.
    In that connection, I should like to quote a remark which was made by Mr. Manley when he was here in June. He is reported in the Daily Telegraph of Monday, 12th June, as saying:
    "The anti-immigration movement which has developed in England springs more from the top, from the politicians, than from the people among whom the immigrants live".
    All that I can say about that is that if Mr. Manley really believes that, then he can believe anything.
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    I feel that the Bill has been introduced only just in time. We still have in this country, thank goodness, full employment, but the position is not all that happy. I am not sure of the exact figures, but the general unemployment figures in Nottingham recently have varied between 1·9 and 2·2 per cent. So far as I can gather from the inquiries which I have made, unemployment among immigrants is between 7 and 9 per cent. That is a figure which is now beginning to cause some alarm. Until the last few months it had been considerably smaller, but in the last three or four months and since the Bill was introduced there has been a definite deterioration, mainly due to unskilled people, chiefly Pakistanis, who are coming over in increasing numbers.
    In an emotional speech, which we all greatly respected, as we always do when he speaks on this subject, the hon. Member for Salford, West spoke of his fondness for the West Indians and said that he did not want them to be hurt. Nor do I want them to be hurt. I do not know whether the hon. Member for Salford, West has had the experience which I have had of regular visits of West Indians at weekly interviews for constituents. Only two weeks ago a West Indian came to see me who had got the sack. He was in tears in my office. He believed—and nothing would convince him to the contrary—that he had been discharged because of his colour. I do not want that to happen in my constituency or anywhere else, but it is something that is happening increasingly, and if no sort of restriction were imposed now it would happen more and more as time went on.
    If we get even a moderate degree of unemployment on a national scale in this country—and I say this from my knowledge of Nottingham at any rate—the racial riots which we had there three and a half years ago will be as nothing to what will happen. If we get that unemployment, one of two things will happen—either we shall say, "Sack the immigrants" and they will rightly feel that they are being badly treated, or we shall say, "They hold their jobs in competition with our own people", and anybody who has known any knowledge of unemployment in this country knows what would happen.

    1257
    I am sure that the Bill will make things happier all round for everyone, ourselves and the immigrants. But when it is passed into law, as I hope that it shortly will be, we have all to play our part and to live together. The immigrants are still with us and more are to come. We are always being urged to try to make immigrants rather more at home in this country and to impart our way of life to them and to ask them to our homes and to introduce them into our ways. I could not agree more with those pleas.
    But at this late stage of the Bill I appeal to immigrants to play their part as well. We all appreciate the kindly services which many of us have had from immigrant nurses in our hospitals and the courteous and efficient behaviour of immigrants employed on municipal transport. On the other hand, we have to realise that off duty the ways of people from other countries are not ours, and they, too, have to realise it.
    In that connection, I appeal to them to avoid noisy night parties, for they do more harm to race relations than can be imagined. I should think that I register about one complaint a week about them. I also say to them that however much they may be provoked at times by some of the worst elements of our own people, I nevertheless hope that they will try to refrain from carrying knives.
    I am absolutely certain that this Bill can do nothing but good. We must emphasise above everything else that it is not merely or even mainly of benefit to our own people, but will be of far more benefit to those immigrants who are now with us and those whom we hope to welcome in the future. I therefore strongly support it.
    9.30 p.m.
    Mr. Llywelyn Williams: We are now on the final stages of a Bill which history will declare to be a sordid one and unworthy of any Government. During the proceedings on the Bill one feature has appealed to me and to many of my hon. Friends. I say this in no condescending or patronising spirit. It has done my heart good to discern in so many hon. Members opposite the true liberal spirit, the enlightenment, and the progressive outlook which reveal British politics at their very best. I hope that
    1258
    the spirit they showed in their contributions to our debates and the political courage they showed in carrying some of their decisions to the point of abstaining, and in some cases even voting against their own Government, which is never an easy thing to do, will redound to their credit.
    The Bill has a very unfortunate genesis. For three or four years before it reached the House we were accustomed to Friday debates on Motions in which the hon. Members for Louth (Sir C. Osborne) and Liverpool, Kirkdale (Mr. N. Pannell) played a prominent part. No matter what those hon. Members may now say, on the last stage of the Bill, about their freedom from any suggestion of colour prejudice, if they read the speeches they delivered on those Fridays they will understand why we have accepted their protestations with so much doubt and suspicion. The words are in HANSARD. They can never delete them. The hon. Member for Louth has used the word "colour" and said that he has to admit that the prejudice is definitely against colour. That is in HANSARD. He can never delete it. What these hon. Members have said on the later stages of the Bill has been completely unconvincing to us.
    Sir Cyril Osborne: I am sure that the hon. Member would not wish to misrepresent me. I defy him to prove by reference to HANSARD that I have said that I have racial prejudice. What I have said time after time is that we are unwise to ignore the fact that colour brings prejudice with it.
    Mr. Williams: I am sure that the hon. Member is sensible enough to realise that when he adduces that type of argument the natural reaction in the House is for us to identify him with the argument which he adduces. I am particularly sorry that it is so in his case, because he always speaks with sound common sense on economic matters. He always has the ear of the House when he speaks on that subject. I thought that his experience on Second Reading was one of the most humiliating experiences any hon. Member can have in the House. When he spoke the House literally refused to give him a hearing. I was sorry for him, because I know his excellent qualities in many other spheres.

    1259
    I have paid my tribute to the magnanimity and imaginative insight of many hon. Members opposite in expressing their misgivings about the operation and implementation of the Bill in respect of people from the West Indies. I do not think that full weight has been given to the feelings of these people. My hon. Friend the Member for Salford, West (Mr. C. Royle), who has recently returned from the West Indies, was able to tell the House of the real regret and concern, almost to the point of baffled heartbreak—I am sure that I do not exaggerate the situation—at the way the attitude in this country has changed, as revealed by the Bill. I know from the few contacts I have made with coloured people who are so wonderfully serving our nation in these days that they, too, are very aggrieved. They are almost like little children who have received a slap in the face for no known reason. They just cannot understand why.
    In view of their war record, which is exemplary, and which has been referred to by hon. Members opposite, in view of the fact that the most menial tasks performed by any section of the community in Britain today are, by and large, being performed by these people, jobs which now our own people seem to believe are beneath them, and which the immigrants are performing not only effectively but with a vivacity and gaiety which win our hearts and enlist our sympathy, in view of their tremendous contribution to these important services, our transport services and our hospital services, I just cannot understand why that consideration, in and of itself, did not make the Government think again about introducing this type of Bill.
    I do not want to speak at length, and I should like to sit down, but I should just like to say that I was never more convinced of the validity of any argument than I was when my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition, in his great and memorable speech on Second Reading of this Bill, said that the whole question of employment of coloured immigrants in this country of ours depends completely on the actual situation of employment in this country at any given time. The point has been made already tonight by my hon. Friend the Member for Widnes (Mr. MacColl).
    1260
    If we were to run—I do not think we shall—but if we were to run into a period of heavy unemployment, all my instincts tell me that these people would cease coming into this country. Nothing is more certain than that. These bogies, these fears which have been generated in this House throughout the whole process of this Bill about our own people suffering in times of unemployment because of coloured immigration, are, I think, completely without foundation, and completely irrelevant to the facts of the situation. I close on that note, and I am sure it is one final condemnation of this Bill, as the future will prove.
    9.38 p.m.
    Mr. Fisher: I must be very brief because I know that the hon. Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey), who is to wind up for the Opposition, wants to get up at ten minutes to ten, and so without elaboration or any supporting argument I should like simply to restate my three basic objections to this Bill, which are also contained in an excellent leading article today in The Times which hon. Members no doubt have seen.
    First, the Bill is prejudicial to good relations between Britain and the coloured countries of the Commonwealth. Secondly, it is prejudicial to good race relations in the world and, thirdly, it could be very prejudicial indeed to the future and to the economy of the West Indies. Having restated those objections, to which I still adhere, I readily acknowledge that the implementation of the Bill, in practice, will be more liberal than that of the Aliens Act, and certainly more liberal than most of us thought when it was introduced.
    That is as it should be, and as the House would wish it to be. Indeed, knowing my right hon. Friend's record at the Home Office, I never had any doubt about his good intentions in the matter, and these have been reinforced by the valuable work done by hon. Members on both sides of the House—and I readily admit that it has been done more particularly by hon. Members opposite—in Committee and on Report. The Bill has been enormously improved.
    In a recent leading article the Daily Telegraph described the Bill as introducing benign discrimination. That is a fair description. To put it at its

    1261
    mildest, the Bill has always contained an element of discrimination. Nevertheless, I gladly acknowledge that that discrimination has become much more benign as it has progressed through its various stages. The period of the initial duration of the Bill has been reduced: the word "student" has been defined, and it has been decided that a person who spends fifteen hours of student study a week comes within that definition. That is not unreasonable; and my right hon. Friend has referred this afternoon to the granting of work vouchers to apprentices as a matter of right—as I understood it. That is a most important point. The instructions to immigration officers have been published, which I am sure was right, and we now know that entry certificates will be procurable in advance; that men who served with us in the war will be given some measure of preference; and that an unmarried woman living in permanent association with a man will be regarded as his wife for purposes of entry.
    All those things are helpful, humane and realistic, and they indicate that the operation of the Bill will be fair and reasonable, whatever some of us may think of the principle. A great deal is still left to the discretion of the immigration officers and medical health inspectors, and that is perhaps unavoidable in a Bill of this kind. Nevertheless, the Bill looks much better to many of us—and certainly to me—than it did on the day it was published.
    I should like to endorse the plea made by the hon. Member for Salford, West (Mr. C. Royle) and express the hope that at some time before the Bill falls to be renewed my right hon. Friend will consider putting it upon the agenda for a Commonwealth Prime Ministers' Conference. I urge that step because this is not only a United Kingdom matter; it is a Commonwealth matter. I am not particularly optimistic about the outcome, but there is just a chance that some Commonwealth countries which have to import manpower will help some of their sister nations who have to export their manpower. It is certainly worth trying, and it is a matter that should be discussed when the leaders of the Commonwealth are all present at the same meeting. If such a step succeeded it would not only
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    make for closer feeling within the Commonwealth but it might also make this Bill unnecessary.
    Although many of us feel that the Bill is a departure from a valued Commonwealth tradition, I acknowledge that there are tenable reasons for it's introduction—because we all know that there is a limit to the number of immigrants this small island could absorb. If they came in their millions from the Asian countries of the Commonwealth there is probably not one hon. Member who would not sooner or later have to say, "Stop". The difference between us arises on the question: at what point on the journey do we have to leave the free entry train? The Government feel that because of the large number of immigrants who have come in in the past year or so they have to leave the train now.
    I believe that last year's numbers were abnormally inflated, partly owing to the campaign carried on by my hon Friend the Member for Louth (Sir C, Osborne) and my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Kirkdale (Mr. N. Pannell), among others. That campaign did much to stimulate the arrival of immigrants. I believe that we could safely have continued the open-door policy. I take the view that the numbers would not have been impossible to cope with, especially as such evidence as we have in relation to the small 1957–58 recession indicates that, when there is not so much employment readily available here, there is automatically a self-imposed restriction upon immigrants coming here.
    I will say, however, and I shall be quite fair about it, that if, despite that view, the numbers had gone on increasing, rising steeply year by year, and if the Government were proved to be right and I was proved to be wrong, I must freely admit that there would have been some point further down the line when I also should have had to leave the free-entry train.
    It is only fair to acknowledge that, and I believe it applies to a good many hon. Members opposite as well as to myself and my hon. Friends, but not perhaps the hon. Member for Salford, West, who is, I think, a last-ditcher in this matter. It applies, as I have said, to many of us, and if we look at the matter

    1263
    in that way there is not so much a difference in principle on the Bill as a difference of degree and of judgment as to when one decides that one must say, "Stop".
    Having acknowledged that, I must still say that I very much dislike the Bill. As hon. Members know, I have always disliked it. Although it is a better Bill now than many of us originally feared it might be, it still contains some elements which are very much open to criticism, notably the nominal inclusion but the actual exclusion of the Southern Irish from the operation of the Bill, about which we have heard so much tonight and particularly eloquently from my hon. Friend the Member for Lancaster (Mr. Berkeley). This is a most unfortunate fact for the Government which has been very widely deplored during our debates.
    It is the misfortune of the Government that their inability or unwillingness—and I understand the reasons full well—to get round the Irish problem has identified their attitude, I think unfairly, in some people's minds with that of my hon. Friend the Member for Louth. I think that that impression is quite erroneous and quite unfair to my right hon. Friends, but it exists both in the Commonwealth and among the migrants who have already come to this country. And nothing that Ministers can now say can eradicate this most unfortunate impression.
    The psychological damage has been done. The image of Britain and, I am sorry to say, of the Conservative Party, has suffered immense harm in the eyes of the coloured nations of the Commonwealth and certainly of the West Indies. This seems to me the greatest possible pity—and I speak now from the point of view of my own party—because this comes at a time when our colonial policy, much criticised in the past, has been so progressive in recent years that even hon. Members opposite have been disarmed and even the hon. Member for Cardiff, South-East (Mr. Callaghan) has sometimes been reduced almost to silence.
    In this context I must say frankly that this Bill has put the clock back. It has revived doubts, suspicions and anxieties which the policy of my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House, when he was
    1264
    Secretary of State for the Colonies, and of my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, ever since the "wind of change" speech, had done so much to nullify and refute. As a result of the Bill, the atmosphere imperceptibly has undergone a change. This makes me sad, because I cannot feel that the Bill is in accord with what I like to think of as the new Conservative approach to Commonwealth issues.
    It may be a popular Bill in the country, and I think it is. It may make a lot of sense in practical terms. Its operation may turn out to be more liberal and more generous than any of us imagined, and if so I shall be very glad; but I believe that the Bill conflicts with what I hope is the real trend in my party, which I certainly support, and it certainly conflicts with my own sincerely held ideals and convictions.
    I should have liked to have voted for the Bill on Third Reading—of course I would. Any loyal member of any party always wishes to support his Government on the Third Reading of a major Bill. I hope, however, that I shall not be thought either presumptuous or, least of all, "holier than thou", which is an attitude I have always much disliked and found most unattractive, if I say that there is, perhaps, one greater loyalty in this place even than loyalty to one's party, and that is loyalty to oneself. In the final analysis, I cannot honestly feel that I should be true to myself if I went into the Lobby to support this Bill tonight.
    9.50 p.m.
    Mr. Denis Healey: All of us will have respected the moving speech of the hon. Member for Surbiton (Mr. Fisher), who during the passage of the Bill has done so much to make its provisions more tolerable to those who disagree with its principles. Nearly all of us would agree that the Bill has been considerably improved as a result of our discussions in Committee. It will do less harm than seemed likely in November to Britain's reputation for fair play, it will be easier to operate and we are assured that it will be operated benignly, at least as long as the present Home Secretary holds that office.
    It is worth reminding ourselves of the valuable work done by the House in changing much of the character of the

    1265
    Bill when we hear this House criticised inside and out as being a futile talking shop which is confined exclusively to mock battles between the parties on issues about which they do not really care. The changes which have been brought about in the Bill over the last three months represent the House of Commons at its best, performing the function for which, we believe, it deserves respect.
    Nevertheless, my right hon. and hon. Friends and myself will vote against the Bill tonight, for the same reason as we opposed it on Second Reading three months ago: first, because we believe that it is unnecessary and irrelevant to the problems which is purports to solve, and secondly, because
    "The Bill strikes at the roots of Britain's traditional liberal attitude towards immigration, at the preservation of good Commonwealth relations and at the belief that Britain is without original sin in the matter of colour discrimination."
    Hon. Members will be aware that I was there quoting the words in The Times this morning, words which express views that are widely held among thinking people of all parties and of none.
    There is no doubt, as the hon. Member for Surbiton has said, that the Bill has already done immense harm to the Commonwealth. We are all aware of the statements made about it by leading statesmen in the West Indies, including men like Sir Grantley Adams and Mr. Norman Manley, whose genuine loyalty to the Commonwealth shines as an example in our association of States. I found on a recent tour of West Africa that this view is no less widely held in that part of the Commonwealth, too.
    Quite apart from the damage done to the bonds of sentiment which hold the Commonwealth together by the way in which the Bill was introduced and some of the arguments adduced in favour of it, in terms of interest the Commonwealth is basically held together today, as always, by the fact that this country gives free entry to Commonwealth goods and to Commonwealth immigrants. The tragic fact is that the Government are taking free entry, both of goods and of people, away from our associates in the Commonwealth and simultaneously are proposing to give one or both of these two benefits to our prospective partners in the European Common Market.
    1266
    There is no doubt, as The Times this morning again points out, that the Bill was particularly disastrous in its timing and its presentation, coming, as it did, together with the Government's negotiations for entry into the European Market and associated, as the Government are, with the passage last night of a South Africa Bill which degrades the value of the Commonwealth association by giving Commonwealth advantages to a country which has been found unfit for membership of the Commonwealth. I believe that it is profoundly significant that the political commentator of the Sunday Telegraph, which is a Conservative newspaper—
    Sir Leslie Plummer: Very boring.
    Mr. Healey: I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Deptford (Sir L. Plummer) about that, but some of the most interesting material about the thinking in the Conservative Party is also some of the most boring material, for very natural reasons. Commenting on the Conservative Party Conference at which the Government first announced their intention to introduce this Bill, the political commentator of the Sunday Telegraph wrote:
    "Delegates rightly saw the Commonwealth as a dangerous obstacle to any realistic view of Britain's place in the world."
    I must say in all sincerity to the hon Member for Stroud (Mr. Kershaw) that I know very well that he and many like him in his party sincerely believe that the Commonwealth has a greater function to perform today, now that it is a multi-racial organisation, than it ever had to perform in the past, but the Government whom he supports in the main—I am glad to hear that he is not going to support them in the Lobby tonight—by their behaviour over the last twelve months have thrown very great doubt on the loyalty of the Conservative Party as a whole today to the Commonwealth as it now exists.
    I must warn the Government, as I did when I spoke in Committee, that there is a real danger that they will fall between two stools. There is a growing probability today that the negotiations for British entry into the Common Market will not succeed, and if this is the case, it is no good the Government thinking that they can then take the

    1267
    Union Jack out of the dustbin and wave it around, and expect to be greeted by other members of the Commonwealth as reconverted enthusiasts for Commonwealth association.
    I can support very strongly the suggestion of the hon. Member that the Government should announce now that they propose to invite other Commonwealth Prime Ministers to a conference in London at which they will discuss, not only the questions arising out of Britain's negotiations with the Common Market, but also the whole problem of the Commonwealth Immigrants Bill, as it is now passing through the House. Of course, essentially, as many hon. Members have pointed out, this Bill is not so much an anti-Commonwealth Bill as an anti-coloured Commonwealth Bill. I confess that the bulk of informed opinion in this country agrees with The Times when it said this morning:
    "It was racial prejudices, pressures and jealousies which constituted the support for the Bill."
    Let us be honest. We all know that the reason why this Bill has been introduced by the Government at this time is that there are in some parts of these islands big concentrations of coloured people, and, as a result, considerable social strains. There is no doubt about that. It is the social pressures set up by these local concentrations of coloured immigrants, and these social strains alone, which are responsible for the Government introducing the Bill at the present time. The extraordinary thing is that the Bill, as now amended and as now interpreted by the Home Secretary, does nothing whatever to remove these social strains, or even to guarantee that they will not increase with an increase of coloured immigration to this country.
    Thanks to the Amendments introduced into the Bill in Committee, if the Bill is operated, as the Home Secretary promised us, in a benign and efficient way, it will succeed in its explicit purpose, which is to relate the rate of coloured immigration to the number of jobs available for immigrants to this country. But it will fail in its implicit purpose to reduce the social tensions which arise out of coloured immigration because, unless the Government are even more incompetent in their managing of our economic affairs than we on
    1268
    this side of the House believe, the number of unskilled jobs available for immigrant workers is bound to increase steadily in Britain over the next ten or twenty years, just as it has increased in Germany, in France, in Northern Italy and every industrial area of the world where the economy is developing. In that case, if the Bill is operated, as it is now planned to operate it, the rate of coloured immigration will not fall but will increase parallel with the number of jobs available for those workers.
    It is a little absurd for the Home Secretary in this context to quote the immigration figures which are available. He talked of the impending doom to this country as a result of an increase in net immigration over the last three years from 40,000 to 80,000 to 160,000. He failed to mention that probably of that 160,000 80,000 are Irish and possibly another 40,000 are aliens not from the Commonwealth at all. Over the last ten years the economic growth of France, Northern Italy and Germany has been due to immigration on a far greater scale than we have ever permitted.
    The so-called German economic miracle has been due to the fact that Germany has increased her total population by 25 per cent. in the ten years following the war—by 10 million people. It is absurd to talk, as the Home Secretary did, as if this net increase in immigration forebode economic disaster for this country. It is utter nonsense. What, perhaps, the right hon. Gentleman meant was that included in that net increase is an increase in coloured immigration which might increase social tensions, but that is not what he said. In any case, it is not what the present Bill is designed to prevent.
    There has been a great deal of discussion today about the reason why the Home Secretary has refused to introduce measures which would enable him to control Irish immigration in the way in which he proposes to control immigration from the Commonwealth. I cannot help wondering whether the real reason for this is that if we subject the coloured immigrants to the sort of controls now contained in this Bill and leave Southern Ireland free, the expanding number of jobs for unskilled workers which might otherwise have been shared by coloured

    1269
    immigrants of the Commonwealth will, in fact, go to Irish workers who are able to enter without any control whatever. The result of this Bill will be not so much to reduce coloured immigration as to lead to a tremendous increase in immigration from Southern Ireland—an increase in immigration which, as one hon. Member pointed out, is liable to create far greater social problems in some respects than the increase in immigration of coloured people of the Commonwealth.
    If that is the real purpose of the Bill, to ensure that the growing need for unskilled labour in this advancing country shall be filled by Irish immigrants from an alien country rather than from coloured members of our own Commonwealth, the Government should come out and say so honestly. The plain fact is that the Bill is not only damaging to our reputation, it is irrelevant to these real objectives. In my opinion, there has been only one real gain to the country from the fact that the Government decided to introduce this Bill shortly before the Conservative Party Conference met last year. This is a gain which is in no way directly due to the Government but to the fact that the fight put up against the Bill and against the attitudes behind it, not only by the Opposition in the House, but by some hon. Members on the back benches opposite and by the bulk of the informed Press of this country, has had a profound effect on public opinion in Britain itself and in the Commonwealth as a whole.
    We on these benches no less than hon. Members opposite who have spoken against the Bill know that it was an unpopular fight from the point of view of the bulk of public opinion in this country, and I do not think that anyone who has opposed the Bill has been unconscious of the fact that he may pay personally or through his party some political penalty for it. But what is profoundly encouraging about the fight is that it has succeeded in shifting the current of opinion in Britain on the whole problem of coloured immigration. There is evidence of this in the Gallup polls. There is evidence of it which hon. Members have found when talking to meetings of their own party groups or other social groups in their constituencies. This has been a real example
    1270
    of political leadership, and it has paid in the resultant effect on public opinion. I only wish that the Government themselves had made an attempt to explain the real nature of these problems to the country and given us for once an example of leadership instead of surrendering to small pressure groups within their own party.
    I quote again from the excellent leading article in The Times this morning:
    "In fact, the repercussions"—
    inside the Commonwealth—
    "have not been so serious or so sustained as at first feared. This is not due to the Government. Ironically enough, it is thanks to the vigour and quality of the opposition aroused both inside and outside Parliament."
    There may well be hon. and right hon. Members opposite who do not share that view, but I believe that anyone who has travelled in the Commonwealth, as I have, during the past few months will know that it is literally true. Once again, the opposition of minorities to a popular Government policy within this country has succeeded in limiting the catastrophic damage which might have been done to our reputation in the Commonwealth and in the world as a whole.
    I have been asked by several hon. Members, who, no doubt, thought that they might derive some local political advantage thereby, to say what would be the attitude of the Labour Party towards the Bill when it next won power. Here, let me say how glad I am that the assumption of a Labour victory at the next election is now naturally accepted by hon. Members opposite. I reaffirm tonight what my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition said in the first discussion we had about the Bill on Second Reading.
    We do not believe that the Bill is necessary now. We do not believe that any case has been made by the Government in the last few months to prove the necessity for such a Bill, to prove the necessity for overthrowing the principle of free entry to Britain for the inhabitants of other countries in our Commonwealth. We believe that the Bill should never have been introduced without the relevant information being collected, and, frankly, we find it impossible to

    1271
    understand how the Government could justify as recently as yesterday refusing even to try to collect the information and statistics on which a true judgment about immigration and the need for control must be based.
    If the information collected by a serious survey of the whole problem revealed that immigration control was necessary, we should regard it as essential to consult the other Commonwealth Governments. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh".] I am surprised at hon. Members opposite. They know in their hearts that this was one of the issues on which the Government did the greatest harm to our country's reputation in the Commonwealth and the greatest harm to their own reputation, such as it is, for objectivity in making up their minds on legislation.
    We would consult other Commonwealth Governments to see how this could be achieved with the minimum damage to their interests and to their confidence in our loyalty and good will. This is how we shall act when we win power. [Interruption.] It is very easy for hon. Members opposite to make promises. They do it all the time. They promised last year that they would keep down the rise in Government expenditure to 2½ per cent. this year, but it is already up to 4½ per cent. We are not so irresponsible, [Interruption.] Certainly we are not.
    What we can say is that we can see no grounds whatever at the present time for such a Bill. We do not believe that the Bill will even deal with the social problems which exist as the result of the immigration of coloured people. The reason why we fought, in the end successfully, to ensure that the Bill should be of short duration and that we shall have a chance to review it in eighteen months' time, is that we want the right to reject it in eighteen months' time if, as we feel confident, it proves to be totally inadequate for its purpose as well as extremely damaging to the survival of the Commonwealth and to our reputation in the world.
    We believe, as I think we have proved in the course of the arguments of the last three months, that the Bill is unjustified and is detrimental to our honour and to our interests. That is why we shall vote against it tonight.
    10.12 p.m.
    The Attorney-General: I have listened with interest to the speech of the hon. Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey) and I must say frankly that he disappointed me in one respect.
    Mr. Charles Pannell. The right hon. and learned Gentleman always disappoints us.
    The Attorney-General: My hopes were raised by the hon. Member for Islington, East (Mr. Fletcher) who, at the conclusion of his speech, indicated without qualification that his hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, East would answer the perfectly positive question put to him about the intention of the party opposite with regard to the repeal of this Bill. It has taken the hon. Member for Leeds, East a considerable time to frame a sentence with many "ifs" and many conditions which can give no indication of any kind as to the course which the party opposite will take.
    Since this Bill was introduced, we have had many interesting and wide-ranging debates upon it. We had some particularly useful debates in Committee after the introduction of the timetable, and today we have had a serious and thoughtful debate on the Third Reading—at the same time a very good humoured but serious debate, for this is a serious occasion in the consideration of a major Bill.
    I was rather disappointed not to hear anything of the views of any hon. Member from Northern Ireland about this Measure. Of course, we have not been favoured with the views of any member of the Liberal Party, because they have been absent for most of the debate.
    Mr. Thorpe: I am sure that the right hon. and learned Gentleman, with his sense of legal training, would always like to be accurate in his facts. If he had been present at the debate a little more than he was, he would have known that it was only for approximately 20 or 30 minutes that Liberals were not manning their bench. I ask him to withdraw his remark.
    The Attorney-General: I will not withdraw. I saw the hon. Gentleman come in and out. I never saw him rise to his feet to address the House.
    Mr. Thorpe: That is not what the Attorney-General said. He is a slippery lawyer. He will get a baronetcy if he carries on like this.
    The Attorney-General: In this final debate on the Bill as a whole in this House I want to sum up the case for the Bill and, in the course of doing so, to reply to the criticisms which have been advanced. That this is a better Bill now in some respects than it was when first introduced I would not seek to dispute, but it is quite wrong to stigmatise it, as did the hon. Gentleman the Member for Islington, East and my hon. Friend the Member for Lancaster (Mr. Berkeley) thought fit to do—as ill-considered and ill-digested.
    In fact, I make no apology for it. It was introduced after long and anxious consideration. [Interruption.] Any Government considering a Measure of this sort should, before introducing it, give it long and anxious consideration. That the Government did. The detailed examination of a Bill in Committee often, and usually does, leads to improving the Measure, and that, after all, is the object of the Committee's consideration of it. Certainly after the introduction of the timetable that has been the result. It is the usual tactics of an Opposition to seek to claim all the credit for the amendments made. I prefer to say that all hon. Members of the Committee doing their best—including those who accept the principle of the Bill—have tried to make the Measure work as satisfactorily as possible.
    In my belief, the case for the Bill today is even stronger than on Second Reading. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] It is not due, as the hon. Gentleman the Member for Salford, West (Mr. C. Royle) suggested, to any unholy alliance on the part of the hon. Members for Louth (Sir C. Osborne), Liverpool, Kirkdale (Mr. N. Pannell) and Birmingham, Selly Oak (Mr. Gurden), or anything of that sort, but to the trend which the figures suggest.
    My right hon. Friend has referred to the immigration figures and to the Registrar's estimate that the figure for 1961 is likely to be larger than that for 1960. Those figures have a serious significance. As my hon. Friend the Member for Surbiton (Mr. Fisher) said, we all recognise really that there is a limit to the
    1274
    number of immigrants this country can absorb. We may differ as to what that limit is, but that there is a limit few would deny. To allow that limit to be exceeded by refraining from taking power to control immigration is not, in my belief, in the true interests of immigrants, of this country or of the Commonwealth.
    That is the fact I urge the House to accept; that not to take such power would not be in their interests and that there is a limit. That really is the foundation of the case for the Bill. It is not, as is so often represented, our object to stop immigration. My right hon. Friend paid tribute to the valuable work done by so many immigrants in hospitals, on the railways and elsewhere.
    It is not and never has been our intention or desire to stop immigration to this country; only to take power to regulate the flow so that the limit which this country can absorb at any particular time is not exceeded. My right hon. Friend the Member for Reigate (Sir J. Vaughan-Morgan) made a very serious and interesting speech and regretted that we had not taken power to control immigration many years ago. No doubt it would have been easier for us now had we done so. But, that not having been done, the major question is, should we now, as a Government, seek to take that power?
    I am glad that on reflection and, after a great deal of heart searching, my right hon. Friend has reached the conclusion that it is right for the Government to do so. If it is right for the Government to do so—and I recognise only too well that there is a minority who do not accept that—it must be accepted that a control on immigration must interefere, to some extent, with the right of free entry into this country. That is really inescapable. Any hon. Member of this House, wherever he may sit, is reluctant to interfere with that. That is one of the reasons why we gave long and anxious consideration to the matter before venturing to introduce the Bill and because we believed that the time had come when it was necessary to do so.
    If it is necessary now to take power to control immigration, then, in our view, the methods contained in the Bill are the only practical and right methods of doing it. We seek to take power to

    1275
    control the flow of immigration and to achieve the object of the Bill, while interfering to the least possible extent with the admission of immigrants into the United Kingdom. The right of free entry of Commonwealth citizens resident here and of their wives and children is not affected. Students retain the right of admission provided that subsections (4) and (5) of Clause 2 do not apply. Visitors will, of course, continue to be welcomed. Those who wish to work here will, as my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour explained, have to obtain vouchers. My right hon. Friend explained how that system will work and how flexible it is. It is by the use of this machinery that excessive immigration can be prevented and the flow regulated to that which this country can absorb.
    A great deal has been said in this debate and in earlier debates about the Southern Irish. I believe that the Bill rightly applies not only to all immigrants from the Commonwealth but to all immigrants from the Republic of Ireland. Their position has been contrasted with that of those in the West Indies.
    I should like to say a word or two about the position of the Southern Irish, it has always been a difficult problem, as the right hon. Member for South Shields (Mr. Ede) recognised. The Southern Irish have their special geographical position which really makes special treatment inevitable. That was recognised in 1948 when the British Nationality Act was passed. It really is too late now, even if it were desirable, to put the clock back in that respect.
    Mr. Healey: The Government have put the clock back.
    Lieut.-Colonel Sir Walter Bromley-Davenport: Keep quiet.
    The Attorney-General: Some of the things said today about the position of the Southern Irish seemed to me to relate more to the situation which came into existence in 1948. My right hon. Friend the Member for Reigate referred to the Southern Irish having the glamour of independence and the privileges of membership of the Commonwealth at the same time. If that be right, it is really more a criticism of what was achieved then than it is of the proposals in the Bill.
    1276
    Despite all the criticisms which have been made, I maintain that the Government's position, open though it may be to misrepresentation, has always been clear. We take power to regulate immigration by the Southern Irish. It is right that we should do so under the Bill. It may become necessary to exercise that power, although, in the Government's view, it is not expedient to do so now.
    Mr. Healey: What does that mean?
    The Attorney-General: It is clearer than the final passages of the hon. Gentleman's speech.
    Most of the Southern Irish immigration is seasonal and is different in character from immigration from elsewhere. It would be quite wrong to take power to restrict immigration from the Commonwealth and to refrain from taking power to restrict immigration from Southern Ireland, although, as I say, at present there is no intention to exercise that power. It is quite illogical and wrong to seek to represent the Bill, applying as it does to all Commonwealth countries irrespective of colour, as a colour bar Bill just because restrictions will not now be imposed on Southern Irish immigrants.
    Mrs. Patricia McLaughlin: Could my right hon. and learned Friend clarify one point about which we should like a little further information? Is it definite that if these restrictions are implemented against immigrants from Southern Ireland, whose entry it may be necessary to control, they will be imposed on the borders of the United Kingdom and at no other point?
    The Attorney-General: I think that my right hon. Friend used the words, "borders of the United Kingdom." I do not think that even a lawyer could argue as to where the borders of the United Kingdom are. [HON. MEMBERS: "Answer."] That is the answer to the question. [HON. MEMBERS: "Answer."] I think that the answer was perfectly clearly, "Yes". There is no doubt about where the borders of the United Kingdom are.
    I say in conclusion that this is a major Measure. We recognise the difficulties of the introduction of a Measure of this kind. It is easy to attack and easy, perhaps, to misrepresent. We have thought

    1277
    it right to introduce it and to seek to explain it to the House and to the country. In our view, it is an important Measure and one which ought to command the support of the House.
    As I have said, we have had very good humoured debates and I should like to pay my tribute to the hon. Member for Islington, East for the part he has played in these debates. He has carried the battle, leading the Opposition, almost single handed. Indeed, I think that it is right to say that only on one occasion since the timetable was introduced has he had the support of any right hon. Friend of his on the Front Opposition Bench. On one occasion after the timetable Motion had been passed the right hon. Gentleman for Belper (Mr. G. Brown) spoke, but I dare say that he wished that he had not done
    so. The hon. Member has certainly helped us to do what we could to make the Bill work as well as possible.
    Despite all the threats to fight the Bill line by line, we have now reached the concluding stages. The Bill is better than it was when introduced. The Government would be failing in their duty if they failed to tackle this thorny question now. There can be no doubt that the Bill will be administered in a humane and sensible way. In my belief it will achieve its object of regulating the flow of immigration to this country to the country's capacity to absorb it. I recommend the Bill to the Housee.
    Question put, That the Bill be now read the Third time:—
    The House divided: Ayes 277, Noes 170.

    Division No. 110.]

    AYES

    [10.28 p.m.

    Agnew, Sir Peter

    Critchley, Julian

    Harrison, Col Sir Harwood (Eye)

    Aitken, W. T.

    Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col Sir Oliver

    Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere (Macclesf'd)

    Allason, James

    Crowder, F. P.

    Harvey, John (Walthamstow, E.)

    Amery, Rt. Hon. Julian

    Cunningham, Knox

    Harvie Anderson, Miss

    Arbuthnot, John

    Curran, Charles

    Hastings, Stephen

    Ashton, Sir Hubert

    Currie, G. B. H.

    Hay, John

    Barber, Anthony

    Dance, James

    Heath, Rt. Hon. Edward

    Barter, John

    d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

    Hendry, Forbes

    Batsford, Brian

    Deedes, W. F.

    Hiley, Joseph

    Beamish, Col Sir Tufton

    de Ferranti, Basil

    Hill, Dr. Rt. Hn. Charles (Luton)

    Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gos & Fhm)

    Digby, Simon Wingfield

    Hill, Mrs. Eveline (Wythenshawe)

    Bevins, Rt. Hon. Reginald

    Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. M.

    Hill, J. E. B. (S. Norfolk)

    Biffen, John

    Doughty, Charles

    Hirst, Geoffrey

    Birch, Rt. Hon. Nigel

    Drayson, G. B.

    Hobson, Sir John

    Bishop, F. P.

    du Cann, Edward

    Hocking, Philip N.

    Black Sir Cyril

    Duncan, Sir James

    Holland, Philip

    Bossom, Clive

    Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)

    Hollingworth, John

    Bourne-Arton, A.

    Elliott, R. W. (Nwcstle-upon-Tyne, N.)

    Hope, Rt. Hon. Lord John

    Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hon. J.

    Emery, Peter

    Hopkins, Alan

    Boyle, Sir Edward

    Errington, Sir Eric

    Hornby, R. P.

    Braine, Bernard

    Erroll, Rt. Hon. F. J.

    Howard, John (Southampton, Test)

    Brewis, John

    Farey-Jones, F. W.

    Hughes Hallett, Vice-Admiral John

    Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. Sir Walter

    Farr, John

    Hughes-Young, Michael

    Brooke, Rt. Hon. Henry

    Finlay, Graeme

    Hulbert, Sir Norman

    Brooman-White, R.

    Fletcher-Cooke, Charles

    Hurd, Sir Anthony

    Brown, Alan (Tottenham)

    Forrest, George

    Hutchison, Michael Clark

    Bryan, Paul

    Fraser, Hn. Hugh (Stafford & Stone)

    Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye)

    Buck, Antony

    Fraser, Ian (Plymouth, Sutton)

    Jackson, John

    Bullard, Denys

    Freeth, Denzil

    James, David

    Burden, F. A.

    Galbraith, Hon. T. G. D.

    Jennings, J. C.

    Butler, Rt. Hn. R. A.(Saffron Walden)

    Gammans, Lady

    Johnson, Dr. Donald (Carlisle)

    Campbell, Sir David (Belfast, S.)

    Gardner, Edward

    Johnson, Eric (Blackley)

    Campbell, Cordon (Moray & Nairn)

    George, J. C. (Pollok)

    Johnson Smith, Geoffrey

    Carr, Compton (Barons Court)

    Gibson-Watt, David

    Kaberry, Sir Donald

    Cary, Sir Robert

    Gilmour, Sir John

    Channon, H. P. G.

    Glover, Sir Douglas

    Kerans, Cdr. J. S.

    Clark, Henry (Antrim, N.)

    Glyn, Dr. Alan (Clapham)

    Kerby, Capt. Henry

    Clark, William (Nottingham, S.)

    Glyn, Sir Richard (Dorset, N.)

    Kerr, Sir Hamilton

    Clarke, Brig. Terence (Portsmth, W.)

    Goodhart, Philip

    Kershaw, Anthony

    Cleaver, Leonard

    Goodhew, Victor

    Kimball, Marcus

    Cole, Norman

    Gough, Frederick

    Kitson, Timothy

    Collard, Richard

    Gower, Raymond

    Lancaster, Col. C. G.

    Cooke, Robert

    Grant, Rt. Hon. William

    Langford-Holt, Sir John

    Cooper, A. E.

    Grant-Ferris, Wg. Cdr. R.

    Leather, E. H. C.

    Cordeaux, Lt.-Col. J. K.

    Green, Alan

    Leavey, J. A.

    Cordle, John

    Gresham Cooke, R.

    Leburn, Gilmour

    Corfield, F. V.

    Gurden, Harold

    Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry

    Costain, A. P.

    Hall, John (Wycombe)

    Lilley, F. J. P.

    Coulson, Michael

    Hamilton, Michael (Wellingborough)

    Lindsay, Sir Martin

    Courtney, Cdr. Anthony

    Hare, Rt. Hon. John

    Linstead, Sir Hugh

    Craddock, Sir Beresford

    Harris, Reader (Heston)

    Litchfield, Capt. John

    Lloyd, Rt. Hon. Selwyn (Wirral)

    Peyton, John

    Storey, Sir Samuel

    Longbottom, Charles

    Pickthorn, Sir Kenneth

    Studholme, Sir Henry

    Longden, Gilbert

    Pike, Miss Mervyn

    Summers, Sir Spencer (Aylesbury)

    Loveys, Walter H.

    Pilkington, Sir Richard

    Talbot, John E.

    Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh

    Pitman, Sir James

    Taylor, Edwin (Bolton, E.)

    MacArthur, Ian

    Pitt, Miss Edith

    Taylor, Frank (M'ch'st'r, Moss Side)

    McLaren, Martin

    Pott, Percivall

    Taylor, W. J. (Bradford, N.)

    McLaughlin, Mrs. Patricia

    Powell, Rt. Hon. J. Enoch

    Teeling, Sir William

    Maclay, Rt. Hon. John

    Price, David (Eastleigh)

    Temple, John M. … ….

    Maclean, Sir Fitzroy (Bute & N. Ayrs.)

    Price, H. A. (Lewisham, W.)

    Thomas, Leslie (Canterbury)

    Macleod, Rt. Hn. lain (Enfield, W.)

    Prior, J. M. L.

    Thomas, Peter (Conway)

    Macmillan, Rt. Hn. Harold (Bromley)

    Proudfoot, Wilfred

    Thompson, Kenneth (Walton)

    Macpherson, Niall (Dumfries)

    Quennell, Miss J. M.

    Thompson, Richard (Croydon, S.)

    Maddan, Martin

    Ramsden, James

    Thorneycroft, Rt. Hon. Peter

    Maitland, Sir John

    Rawlinson, Peter

    Thornton-Kemsley, Sir Colin

    Manningham-Buller, Rt. Hn Sir R.

    Redmayne, Rt. Hon. Martin

    Tiley, Arthur (Bradford, W.)

    Markham, Major Sir Frank

    Rees, Hugh

    Touche, Rt. Hon Sir Gordon

    Marples, Rt. Hon. Ernest

    Rees-Davies, W. R.

    Turner, Colin

    Marshall, Douglas

    Renton, David

    Turton, Rt. Hon. R. H.

    Marten, Neil

    Ridley, Hon. Nicholas

    Tweedsmuir, Lady

    Mathew, Robert (Honiton)

    Ridsdale, Julian

    Vane, W. M. F.

    Matthews, Gordon (Meriden)

    Rippon, Geoffrey

    Vaughan-Morgan, Rt. Hon Sir John

    Maudling, Rt. Hon. Reginald

    Roberts, Sir Peter (Heeley)

    Vickers, Miss Joan

    Mawby, Ray

    Robinson, Rt. Hn Sir R. (B'pool, S.)

    Vosper Rt. Hon. Dennis

    Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.

    Roots, William

    Wakefield, Sir Wavell (St. M'lebone

    Mills, Stratton

    Ropner, Col Sir Leonard

    Walker, Peter

    Montgomery, Fergus

    Russell, Ronald

    Wall, Patrick

    More, Jasper (Ludlow)

    St. Clair, M.

    Ward, Dame Irene

    Morgan, William

    Sandys, Rt. Hon. Duncan

    Wells, John (Maidstone)

    Morrison, John

    Seymour, Leslie

    Whitelaw, William

    Mott-Radclyffe, Sir Charles

    Sharples, Richard

    Williams, Dudley (Exeter)

    Nabarro, Gerald

    Shaw, M.

    Wills, Sir Gerald (Bridgwater)

    Nicholls, Sir Harmar

    Shepherd, William

    Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

    Oakshott, Sir Hendrie

    Smith Dudley (Br'ntf'd & Chiswick)

    Wise, A. R.

    Orr-Ewing, C. Ian

    Smithers, Peter

    Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick

    Osborne, Sir Cyril (Louth)

    Smyth, Brig Sir John (Norwood)

    Wood, Rt. Hon. Richard

    Page, Graham (Crosby)

    Soames, Rt. Hon. Christopher

    Woodhouse, C. M.

    Page, John (Harrow, West)

    Spearman, Sir Alexander

    Woodnutt, Mark

    Panned, Norman (Kirkdale)

    Stanley, Hon. Richard

    Worsley, Marcus

    Partridge, E.

    Stevens Geoffrey

    Pearson, Frank (Clitheroe)

    Steward, Harold (Stockport, S.)

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

    Peel, John

    Stodart, J. A.

    Mr. Edward Wakefield and

    Percival, Ian

    Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir Malcolm

    Mr. Chichester-Clark.

    NOES

    Ainsley, William

    Edwards, Walter (Stepney)

    Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)

    Albu, Austen

    Evans, Albert

    Jones, Rt. Hn. A. Creech (Wakefield)

    Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

    Fernyhough, E.

    Jones, Dan (Burnley)

    Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

    Finch, Harold

    Jones, Elwyn (West Ham, S.)

    Awbery, Stan

    Fletcher, Eric

    Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham)

    Baird, John

    Foot, Michael (Ebbw Vale)

    Jones, T. W. (Merioneth)

    Baxter, William (Stirlingshire, W.)

    Forman, J. C.

    Kenyon, Clifford

    Beaney, Alan

    Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton)

    King, Dr. Horace

    Bennett, J. (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

    Galpern, Sir Myer

    Lee, Frederick (Newton)

    Benson, Sir George

    George, Lady Megan Lloyd (Crmrthn)

    Lewis, Arthur (West Ham, N.)

    Blackburn, F.

    Ginsburg, David

    Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

    Blyton, William

    Gooch, E. G.

    MacColl, James

    Boardman, H.

    Gourlay, Harry

    McInnes, James

    Bowden, Rt. Hn. H. W. (Leics, S. W.)

    Grey, Charles

    McKay, John (Wallsend)

    Bowles, Frank

    Griffiths, David (Rother Valley)

    Mackie, John (Enfield, East)

    Braddock, Mrs. E. M.

    Griffiths, Rt. Hon. James (Llanelly)

    McLeavy, Frank

    Brockway, A. Fenner

    Griffiths, W. (Exchange)

    MacPherson, Malcolm (Stirling)

    Broughton, Dr. A. D. D.

    Grimond, Rt. Hon. J.

    Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.)

    Brown, Rt. Hon. George (Belper)

    Hamilton, William (West Fife)

    Manuel, A. C.

    Brown, Thomas (Ince)

    Hayman, F. H.

    Mapp, Charles

    Callaghan, James

    Healey, Denis

    Marsh, Richard

    Castle, Mrs. Barbara

    Henderson, Rt. Hn. Arthur (Rwly Regis)

    Mason, Roy

    Cliffe, Michael

    Herbison, Miss Margaret

    Mendelson, J. J.

    Cronin, John

    Hilton, A. V.

    Milne, Edward

    Cullen, Mrs. Alice

    Holman, Percy

    Mitchison, G. R.

    Davies, Rt. Hn. Clement (Montgomery)

    Holt, Arthur

    Monslow, Walter

    Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)

    Houghton, Douglas

    Morris, John

    Davies, Harold (Leek)

    Howell, Charles A. (Perry Barr)

    Mulley, Frederick

    Davies, Ifor (Cower)

    Howell, Denis (Small Heath)

    Neal, Harold

    Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)

    Hoy, James H.

    Noel-Baker, Rt. Hn. Philip (Derby, s.)

    Deer, George

    Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglesey)

    Oram, A. E.

    Delargy, Hugh

    Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire)

    Owen, Will

    Dempsey, James

    Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

    Padley, W. E.

    Diamond, John

    Hunter, A. E.

    Paget, R. T.

    Dodds, Norman

    Hynd, H. (Accrington)

    Pannell, Charles (Leeds, W.)

    Donnelly, Desmond

    Hynd, John (Attercliffe)

    Pargiter, G. A.

    Driberg, Tom

    Janner, Sir Barnett

    Parkin, B. T.

    Edwards, Rt. Hon. Ness (Caerphilly)

    Jeger, George

    Pavitt, Laurence

    Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

    Jenkins, Roy (Stechford)

    Pearson, Arthur (Pontypridd)

    1280

    1281

    Pentland, Norman

    Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.)

    Warbey, William

    Plummer, Sir Leslie

    Snow, Julian

    Watkins, Tudor

    Popplewell, Ernest

    Spriggs, Leslie

    Weitzman, David

    Price J. T, (Westhoughton)

    Steele, Thomas

    Whitlock, William

    Probert, Arthur

    Stonehouse, John

    Wilkins, W. A.

    Randall, Harry

    Stones, William

    Willey, Frederick

    Rankin, John

    Strachey, Rt. Hon. John

    Williams, D. J. (Neath)

    Redhead, E. C.

    Stross, Dr. Barnett (Stoke-on-Trent, C.)

    Williams LI. (Abertillery)

    Rhodes, H.

    Swain, Thomas

    Williams, W. R. (Openshaw)

    Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

    Swingler, Stephen

    Williams, W. T. (Warrington)

    Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon)

    Symonds, J. B.

    Willis, E. G. (Edinburgh, E.)

    Robertson, John (Paisley)

    Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield)

    Wilson, Rt. Hon. Harold (Huyton)

    Robinson, Kenneth (St. Pancras, N.)

    Thomas, Iorwerth (Rhondda, W.)

    Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A.

    Ross, William

    Thomson, G. M. (Dundee, E.)

    Woof, Robert

    Royle, Charles (Salford, West)

    Thornton, Ernest

    Yates, Victor (Ladywood)

    Silverman, Julius (Aston)

    Thorpe, Jeremy

    Skeffington, Arthur

    Ungoed-Thomas, Sir Lynn

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

    Slater, Mrs. Harriet (Stoke, N.)

    Wade, Donald

    Mr. Short and Mr. Lawson

    Slater, Joseph (Sedgefield)

    Wainwright, Edwin

    Bill accordingly read the Third time and passed.

  SOUTH AFRICA [MONEY]
  Resolution reported,
  That, for the purposes of any Act of this Session to make final provision as to the operation of the law in consequence of the Union of South Africa having become a republic outside the Commonwealth, it is expedient to authorise any increase in the sums which may be or are to be issued out of the Consolidated Fund, raised by borrowing or paid into the Exchequer under the Sugar Act, 1956, being an increase attributable to provisions of the said Act of this Session relating to sugar exported or to be exported from the territories of the Republic of South Africa
  Resolution agreed to.

  WAYS AND MEANS
  [26th February]
  WAYS AND MEANS

    SOUTH AFRICA
    Resolution reported,
    That, for the purposes of any Act of this Session to make final provision as to the operation of the law in consequence of the Union of South Africa having become a republic outside the Commonwealth, it is expedient to authorise any increase in—

    (a) the rate of any surcharge payable to the Sugar Board by virtue of section seven of the Sugar Act, 1956; or

    (b) the amount of any distribution repayment so payable by virtue of section fifteen of the said Act of 1956,

    being an increase attributable to provisions of the said Act of this Session relating to sugar exported or to be exported from the territories of the Republic of South Africa.
    Resolution read a Second time.
    Question, That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution, put forthwith, pursuant to Standing Order No. 86 (Ways and Means Motions and Resolutions), and agreed to.

  LOCAL AUTHORITIES (HISTORIC BUILDINGS [MONEY]
  [Queen's Recommendation signified.]
  Considered in Committee under Standing Order No. 84 (Money Committees).
  [Sir WILLIAM ANSTRUTHER-GRAY in the Chair]
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to make provision for contributions by local authorities towards the repair and maintenance of buildings of historic or architectural interest, it is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of any increase attributable to the provisions of that Act in the sums payable out of such moneys by way of Rate-deficiency Grant or Exchequer Equalisation Grant under the enactments relating to local government in England and Wales or in Scotland.—[Mr. Rippon.]
  10.41 p.m.
  Mr. William Ross: An important statement was made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer today which dealt almost entirely with the difficulty the Government are in over Government expenditure and their attempts to keep it down to the very minimum. No new burdens must be taken on. It is historic to note that on the same day that the Chancellor saw fit to give this warning to the nation the first Money Resolution put before us increases expenditure and not one irate Conservative Member has risen to ask how much is involved or to remind the Financial Secretary of what his Departmental head said earlier today.
  I rise because I am concerned about this in more than one way. We have a housing problem and we have been told by the Government, both in the House and in Committee, that they cannot afford a single penny more for housing people who are in slums or in houses which are far from satisfactory in providing the accommodation which we should like to provide. Yet here we have the Government prepared to back a Private Member's Bill which will mean additional expenditure.
  Mr. H. P. G. Channon: No.
  Mr. Ross: Yes. The reason why we have this Money Resolution is that taxation is involved. It if were not involved, the hon. Member for Southend, West (Mr. Channon) who moved so eloquently a few Fridays ago the Second Reading of the Bill—and I listened with considerable pleasure to the way he presented the case—would not require a Money Resolution at all. As the hon. Member remembers, his Bill deals with two possible ways in which a local authority can help historic houses. The plight of the stately homes of England was well and truly stated that day from 11 o'clock in the morning until 3.20 in in the afternoon. We remember the prolonged effort of the Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Housing and Local Government on that occasion, related less to the merits of the Bill than to the fact that a Bill dealing with widowed mothers was coming coming on later and he did not wish that to be decided openly in the House on that day.
  The Money Resolution—which does not apply to Scotland—enables local authorities to make a certain contribution to certain houses already on the list of historic houses and, secondly, to make additionally a contribution in respect of other houses, though in that case the local authorities have to refer to the Minister. So in two cases local authorities are going to increase their rate-borne expenditure; but that rate-borne expenditure comes into the aggregate calculation in respect of equalisation grant, or rate deficiency grant as it is probably better known in England, and Scotland comes into it because there are alternatives—[Interruption.]—Hon. Gentlemen should wait for it.
  Mr. Channon: I am following the hon. Gentleman.
  Mr. Ross: There are alternative formulae in respect of calculation of equalisation grant for Scotland, one of which only, the eleven-eightieths, if it is more favourable to Scotland, would apply. I reckon that in relation to this proposal it might not. That is how Scotland comes into it—if that formula is used in the matter of increased expenditure in England and Wales. I have

  1285
  wondered how any Secretary of State could have dropped such a formula in relation to education grant, but we can depend on the present incumbent of that office to make the worst possible bargain for Scotland. Is it night, however, to encourage additional rate-borne expenditure? Is it right in the Government, who terrorise us, as they did today, with this tale of woe about how every single item of Government expenditure must be carefully scrutinised?
  Where are the absentees? Where are the defenders of the taxpayers? Where is the hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro) who is always so anxious that we must let nothing slip? Not a single one of them is here to question this piece of expenditure, to question whether it is worth while or whether it could wait. I know that there may not be very much in it, but the principle, surely, is the principle of first things first. There are all sorts of other things which we cannot afford, which we cannot have, for which we have to wait.
  So, quite apart from inviting the Minister to give us some information as to how much is involved, I think that we are entitled to some explanation why the Government see fit to embark upon this new venture and type of expenditure at a time when we are being warned that everything else must be cut down to the very minimum and when we are denied even an extra penny for houses. Indeed, we are being cut down in the coming year by £1 million not for the stately homes of Scotland but for the homes of Scotland which are an absolute disgrace to Great Britain, cut down on providing for overspill and clearing the slums of Glasgow, and all that. We are cutting down expenditure on that, and yet here we are prepared to adopt a new form of expenditure to encourage ratepayers to spend money through the rates and to get aid from the Government in spending money on the stately homes of England.
  I should not be doing my job as a Scottish Member of Parliament if I did not make my vocal protest about this sense of priorities, and call attention to the fact that all those people who are supposedly so concerned about expenditure on social services are not only not vocal tonight but not even present.
  10.48 p.m.
  The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Housing and Local Government (Mr. Geoffrey Rippon): The hon. Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Ross) has put the case very forcefully for this Financial Resolution and has explained the purpose of the Bill. He is, no doubt, aware that when it was put forward by my hon. Friend the Member for Southend, West (Mr. Channon) it received support from all parts of the House, from hon. Members who felt that local authorities in England and Wales should be given the same permissive powers that Scotland took herself in 1947, because Scotland already possesses the powers, which we are now seeking for England and Wales. I am sure the hon. Member would not deny us this right. We make a great contribution to expenditure in Scotland and we feel that from time to time we might be allowed to spend a little of our own money in our own way.
  The hon. Member explained very clearly how the Scottish equalisation grant is linked with the English equalisation grant by a complicated formula set out in the Sixth Schedule to the Valuation and Rating (Scotland) Act, 1956. The way in which it would be affected, as the hon. Member suggested, would be marginal. As far as I can judge, the only way in which Scotland can be affected would be for us to have to give it even more money than we give it now, because the 1956 Scottish Act provides that, whatever happens, the Scottish total must not be less than eleven-eightieths of the English total.
  In these circumstances, I am sure that the hon. Member will feel that it is in the interests of Scottish ratepayers that he should seize such crumbs of comfort as exist in the Bill. I am sure that the Committee will want this important Resolution to be carried without too much difficulty.
  10.50 p.m.
  Mr. G. R. Mitchison: That is all very well, but the Parliamentary Secretary has not told us anything about the likely cost. Ever since a former Chancellor of the Exchequer told us about the gentleman from Aberdeen who objected to bus fares being lowered because in that way he saved less by

  1287
  walking to his destination, the Scots have rightly kept the English up to the mark in financial matters. I welcome cordially the intervention of my hon. Friend the Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Ross), not only on account of the Goschen formula and its application in this matter, but also on account of the historic rôle of the Scots as those who keep an eye on the English in matters of expenditure.
  Can the Parliamentary Secretary give us any idea of what sort of amount is likely to be involved by the provisions of the Bill? It is true that it comes only indirectly upon the Exchequer through the grants which have been mentioned, but surely it is the business of a prudent Government, especially when the Chancellor of the Exchequer is giving us such terrible warnings about the need for economy in this and other matters, to have some idea and to communicate it to us about the cost of any Measure which they back in this way.
  The Bill relates partly to buildings on the list of historic monuments, about which I have no question to ask, and partly to buildings which are not on that list. The provisions of the Bill are that such buildings should be dealt with under its provisions only with the consent of the Minister of Housing and Local Government. I trust that that provision will be preserved. If it is not preserved, however, there seems to me at least to be a possibility of the abuse of a Measure which, without that consent, might be a little too sweeping. Have the Government, in their almost infinite wisdom but occasional inaccuracy in financial measures, formed an estimate of what would be the result, first, of the Bill in its present form and, secondly, of the Bill if that provision were omitted?
  This is no surprise to the Parliamentary Secretary, because the question whether that provision should be omitted was discussed on Second Reading. It had little support, however, from the hon. Member for Southend, West (Mr. Channon), whose Bill it was, and whom I now see expressing with his head the same opinion as he expressed with his voice on Second Reading. That is my question, and I repeat it in a very short form. Have the Government the faintest idea of what the Bill will cost
  1288
  the Exchequer, first, in its present form and, secondly, if the consent of the Minister of Housing and Local Government is not to be required for dealing with buildings which are not on the list of historic monuments?
  Mr. Rippon: As the hon. and learned Member for Kettering (Mr. Mitchison) knows very well, it is not possible to quantify the amount that will be involved. Part of the expenditure is permissive. We can rely on most ratepayers to see that their councils do not spend excessive sums. I should not like to anticipate what happens in Committee, but I will see that the hon. and learned Member's views are conveyed to his right hon. Friend the Member for South Shields (Mr. Ede), who certainly wished to see an increase in the permissive powers in the Bill.
  Mr. Mitchison: If I may be allowed to speak again for a moment, I would merely say that I made an inquiry. I have expressed no views, but I am of the opinion that this is a matter for the Committee, and if I were on the Committee I should have certain views to express on the matter.
  10.55 p.m.
  Mr. Robert Cooke: Having been urged by a number of hon. Members not to take part in this discussion, I feel it my bounden duty to say a few words in support of what the Committee is being asked to approve, although the hour is late. I listened with interest to the speech of the hon. Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Ross). Indeed, on many occasions I have listened to the hon. Member late into the night—
  Mr. Ross: The hon. Member will do so again.
  Mr. Cooke: I wish to say a few words in support of the Measure with which this Resolution is connected. The hon. Member for Kilmarnock made many points and got them all within the rules of order. He talked of the social services. I would remind him and some of his colleagues, with all humility, that I listened to my right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer this afternoon, and he announced firmly that there would be no cuts whatever in the social services in the measures which he would put before the House. Some of us on this side of the Committee might

  1289
  regret that, but nevertheless that is what he said.
  The Chairman: I am reluctant to interrupt the hon. Member, but we are debating a Money Resolution which does not refer to social services.
  Dr. J. Dickson Mabon: On a point of order, Sir William. Since my hon. Friend the Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Ross) raised a question of priorities, is not the hon. Gentleman in order, in arguing the case about priorities, to mention the reductions which he wishes to be made in certain social services to allow this Money Resolution to be implemented? Should he not be allowed to tell us what social services he would like cut in order that this Money Resolution may go through?
  The Chairman: No, that would be going much too wide in a debate on a Money Resolution.
  Mr. Cooke: I will come back strictly into order, Sir William. In my next point, if the hon. Member had allowed me, I was going to say that this Bill provides a social service—
  Mr. Ross: Is it right, Sir William, for the hon Member to say that he would have got on to the point if I had allowed him to do so? Surely you are in the Chair, not I?
  Mr. Cooke: I merely wish to say that this Bill provides a social service inasmuch as it provides for the well-being and continuance of some of these places of historic interest which are enjoyed by a wide variety of people. Some of these buildings Which do not appear in the list which has been mentioned in the debate but are referred to in the Bill, and therefore the Money Resolution applies to them, are buildings which can provide useful housing for people who have not got houses. For that reason, I support the Money Resolution and I hope the Committee will approve it.
  11.0 p.m.
  Mr. E. G. Willis: I am sure that we were all delighted to see the hon. Member for Bristol, West (Mr. Robert Cooke) trying to walk the tight rope connected with this Money Resolution. I did not think that his first effort was very successful, but I have no doubt that with the experience that he
  1290
  will gain as a result of opportunities which will be afforded him, he will in due course become expert. We shall be delighted to follow his development in this respect.
  I was surprised at the manner in which the Parliamentary Secretary dismissed this matter. We have recently had a number of debates on the Parliamentary control of expenditure. One of the things to which the Plowden Committee draws attention is the necessity to consider very carefully continuing expenditure before approving it. It says that we ought to have some knowledge of what it will involve us in during the years to come. This is true, of course, because one of the troubles in which the Treasury finds itself with continuing expenditure of this kind is that, once it has been authorised by Parliament, the Treasury can do nothing to stop it continuing and snowballing. This is why the Chancellor himself finds great difficulty in connection with a number of his items of expenditure.
  It would be out of order for me to mention agricultural subsidies, but, of course, they are one example of what I am saying. However, I do not want to speak about that matter, and I only quote it as the type of thing that happens with continuing expenditure which has been authorised by Parliament and about which the Chancellor can do nothing.
  In the light of that, of course, we ought to have had more information as to what this would cost. I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Ross). I am amazed at the slipshod manner in which the Government Front Bench presents these matters. We asked a question last night and the same thing happened. We asked how much money something would cost, as a result of which there were hurried dashings from the bench behind the Government Front Bench to the Box to get the necessary information. Quite obviously the Financial Secretary had not been briefed and did not know very much about the matter at that time.
  Tonight we have another example. The Minister presents a Money Resolution and says, "We want you to authorise money for something which will be necessary, but we cannot tell you how much we are asking for." This sort of

  1291
  think places the House of Commons in an impossible position. We are asked to authorise the expenditure of what sum? Is it £1,000 a year, £10,000 a year, £1 million a year, or what is it? I do not know. I should have thought that we ought to have had some information and that it was not beyond the wit of the Minister to gather together some information as to the likely cost of this provision. Even if the hon. Gentleman cannot tell us, I should have thought that the officials could have provided the answer had they been asked.
  Mr. William Baxter: My hon. Friend is being very complimentary, but I would rather he qualified his remarks.
  Dr. Dickson Mabon: What was that?
  The Chairman: Will hon. Members please address the Chair, because I should like to know what is going on.
  Mr. Baxter: I want my hon. Friend to qualify the remarks he made. He said that it was within the wit of the Government Front Bench to give us some indication of what the cost would be. I did not think that the wit of the Government Front Bench was as high as my hon. Friend indicated.
  Mr. Willis: I always try to think well of my fellow men. Indeed, that is why I am a Socialist. Even about the Government Front Bench, I always think the best. But, if it is beyond the wit of the Government, I have sufficient faith in our very competent civil servants to believe that had they been asked they could have produced some figures about this matter.
  How many houses are likely to receive grants for the purpose of keeping them in good order? Someone must have some idea of what it is all about. The hon. Gentleman seemed to say, "Well, we do not know; we cannot tell you." Having said that, he then told us that England would be allowed, by way of a change, to spend its own money as it wished. But that is what England is always doing, spending its own money. There are over 500 English Members of Parliament, and if they cannot spend their own money as they wish I do not
  1292
  know what stops them. We are trying our best to get a fair share for Scotland, but it is a bit of a struggle. The hon. Gentleman ought to realise that Scotsmen as well as Englishmen will have to pay some of this. The Exchequer will incur additional expenditure and Scotsmen will have to pay.
  Mr. Rippon Mr. Rippon indicated dissent.
  Mr. Willis: Of course that is so. I have never yet heard that there is no Income Tax in Scotland. We, or some people at least, have often advocated a tax holiday for industry in the Highland counties as an encouragement to development, but up to the present everyone in Scotland pays his taxes on the dot, setting an example to people south of the Border. We shall have to pay in Scotland.
  We are delighted that the English, fifteen years after the Scots have done something, now want to copy it. That is customary. That is why we object when we are not allowed to put our ideas to the House of Commons, because it would sometimes save fifteen years—
  The Chairman: Order. I do not follow the hon. Gentleman's remarks in relation to the Money Resolution. Every opportunity has been given to Scottish Members to put their views on it.
  Mr. Willis: I agree that at this time of night we usually take the opportunity to put our views forward.
  I am glad that the Money Resolution may result in something extra coming to Scotland without Scotland having to spend more to earn it. It is delightful to think that we may have something for doing nothing. I welcome the Money Resolution for that reason, and, by and large, I suport it. I hope that the House will pass it, and I hope that the hon. Member for Southend, West (Mr. Channon), when he has to fight for his Bill in the House, will find the information which we have gained from the Minister helpful, though scanty, in his task of answering the arguments which are likely to be put up as it passes through its various stages. I wish the Money Resolution well and I hope that the House will pass it speedily.
  11.9 p.m.
  Mr. Ross: We are grateful to the Minister for whatever information he

  1293
  has been able to give us, but plainly this is not a matter for the Ministry of Housing and Local Government. It is for the Financial Secretary to the Treasury to deal with. He is the watchdog of the Treasury, but he seldom barks. Whether he can bite, I do not know, but, judging by the performance of the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the history of wrong assessments recently, he does not seem to be able to do much. We will give him a chance tonight.
  Perhaps the Treasury is chary of making any assessment about anything now. If the lion. Gentleman tells us that the amount is likely to be so much, we are entitled to say, "Are you quite sure? Have you misjudged the matter and made an under-assessment?". However, as Members of Parliament, we are entitled to ask what is the figure the Treasury has decided it is prepared to grant in the coming year for this purpose. We cannot do our work as Members if we do not know. It is no good saying that we cannot be told; this is a very laudable purpose, and so on, but no more. The words of the Chancellor today, telling us that Parliament is always asking him to spend more money, are still ringing in my ears, yet here we have the Treasury asking Parliament to spend more money but not being prepared to say how much is involved. It really is a bit absurd.
  Is the Scottish point which has been made such a bad one? There are two formulae, and the eleven-eightieths by which Scotland gets an automatic increase applies only if the other part of the formula does not apply in a particular way. Has that alternative been functioning in recent years? If we cannot be given an answer to that question, I would point out that, since rate deficiency and equalisation grants have already been mentioned, the Minister of Housing and Local Government and the Treasury should be aware that the Public Accounts Committee was concerned about the equalisation grant in relation to Scotland and housing.
  We in Scotland are concerned about the Exchequer and its outlook towards housing and it is, therefore, understandable that Scottish hon. Members are not prepared blindly to give the Treasury the right to tax us to meet any call for rate deficiency in England and Wales.
  1294
  Scotland will not get a single penny out of this and, as my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh, East (Mr. Willis) pointed out, we are still afflicted by the curse of this English dominated Parliament, the Treasury, Income Tax and all the other taxes.
  We pay more than our contribution but, in this case, we shall get absolutely nothing from it. In fact, the taxpayers of Scotland will be helping to support the rates of England and Wales in the efforts to be made to patch up, repair and maintain historic and stately homes. I have been interested in the speeches that have been made on this subject, especially that of an hon. Member who lives in one of these stately homes. I am not particularly worried about that part of it, but I am concerned about the principle involved.
  I am, frankly, worried about the silence of Tory hon. Members. They are, no doubt, busy writing round robins to the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Perhaps they are telling the Prime Minister to sack the Chancellor because he failed to keep down Government expenditure. They are so busy protesting that they cannot do their job in the House of Commons—their task of watching every penny of Government expenditure. This is one such item of expenditure which they should be closely watching.
  If I could be told how much money is involved in this Money Resolution I might change my mind and not vote against it, for I was taken with the speech of the hon. Gentleman who moved the Second Reading of the Bill, but not so with the prolonged antics—and I cannot call them anything else—of the Parliamentary Secretary. We are entitled to a little more information and I hope that the Financial Secretary, who has been sent here because it is his life to look after Money Resolutions, will oblige. The Financial Secretary's name appears on many Resolutions, but he never has a word to say.
  Perhaps tonight the Financial Secretary can give us the Treasury's view on this matter and tell us what the country can afford. He should remember that we are already making a contribution to the upkeep of these stately homes, and it is important to know what additional sums we can afford.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Resolved,
  That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to make provision for contributions by local authorities towards the repair and maintenance of buildings of historic or architectural interest, it is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of any increase attributable to the provisions of that Act in the sums payable out of such moneys by way of Rate-deficiency Grant or Exchequer Equalisation Grant under the enactments relating to local government in England and Wales or in Scotland.
  Resolution to be reported.
  Report to be received Tomorrow.

  HOSPITAL HOUSES, SCOTLAND (RENTS)
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. E. Wakefield.]
  11.15 p.m.
  Dr. J. Dickson Mabon: Tonight I want to raise the subject not of the stately homes of England, but of the stately people who live in hospital houses in Scotland. These are people who perform a great service to the public of Scotland. Admittedly, there are not many of them, but that is no reason why their plight should not be raised in the House tonight, nor why we should not seek redress for the grievances which they have presented to Parliament.
  Many of the staff who live in hospital houses in Scotland do so as a direct consequence of their conditions of service and as such they are obliged to live in residences which are in many cases not only remote from communities but which also impose conditions on the staff which are inconvenient, although gladly accepted, but which should be taken into account in any matter of rent and rates and conditions of service.
  It is a rather sad event that on 11th August, 1961, an application for the reconsideration of the conditions of service of these people, namely, their wages, was deferred until today. It was only today that the Whitley Council met and was able to tell the staff side that the increase in wages for these people would be no more than 6d. in the £, that being in accordance with the Government's declared policy. Unfortunately, it is not the case that the rents which they are asked to pay have increased by
  1296
  only 6d. in the £; nor is it true that the increase in rates which they are asked to pay is only 6d. in the £. That is my complaint tonight.
  I concede that, in the light of representations which have been going on since last December, the Government have had to give way because of the obvious injustice of their case, and only last week issued a hospital circular, 62/12, which defers two-thirds of these increases until November of this year. But I shall not praise the Government for making that concession. When the Government do something bad and then retreat and do only two-thirds of the bad, they do not deserve to be complimented. They deserve rather to be rebuked for having embarked on the procedure at all.
  It is my contention that persons living in hospital houses ought to have these things considered as part of their conditions of service. In other words, hospital rates and rents should be subject to negotiation by the Whitley Council machinery. The Government have imposed these increases in rent and rates not because of any antipathy towards hospital staff—that would be pathological—but because they are engaged on a wider manoeuvre against local authority tenants. In Committee on the Local Government (Finance Provisions, Etc.) (Scotland) Bill on 19th December, the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland said:
  "I should explain that at present such people—"
  that is, members of the staffs of these hospitals—
  "occupy the houses by virtue of their employment and, in accordance with established practice, it is the employer and not the occupier—in this case the board of management—who is regarded as the occupier for rating purposes. Because all these houses are in Crown occupation an ex gratia payment is made in lieu of rates on a value fixed by the Treasury Valuer."
  He went on to say:
  "I do not propose to go into the general question of the exemption of Crown property from rates. What seems the important point from the practical aspect is that no unfairness results from the present system. The Treasury Valuer naturally keeps the values he fixes in line with the values fixed by local assessors for comparable properties in the area."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, Scottish Standing Committee, 19th December, 1961; c. 244.]
  That is grossly untrue.

  1297
  The hon. Member conceded later in the proceedings of that Committee that there have been well over 200 appeals, more than two-thirds of which have been granted, against the Treasury Valuer's figures. It is my contention that it is the duty of the Scottish Office in cases in which boards of management have appeals against the Treasury Valuer to look carefully at the gross annual value imposed on all hospital houses in Scotland and to appeal against the Treasury Valuer's decision if they consider that it is outwith the local assessments made by the county valuer in the area.
  The reason that I make the point is that the Scottish Office goes on from the assessment made by the Treasury Valuer to allege that all tenants of hospital houses ought to pay the rent settled by the Treasury Valuer. That is the point of the argument. In many cases it has been made clear that there is a discrepancy between the assessment of the houses made by the local county valuer and that made by the Treasury Valuer. That is one point of the argument—that all these cases are made to the detriment of Crown property, and while the Crown may wonder about this, in practical terms, to quote the Under-Secretary of State, it is the practical occupier of the houses, the member of the hospital staff, who has to make what is, in effect, though not in law, a rate contribution in respect of that valuation.
  The Secretary of State has decided in his circular, which proposed these rent increases from 11th November, 1961, to charge rents in accordance with the valuations laid down by the Treasury Valuer so that he can turn round to local councils in Scotland and say, "You ought to charge the same"—namely, the gross annual value—"in respect of every one of your council house tenants". This is a shocking state of affairs. The Secretary of State is willing to exploit one of the most commendable sections serving the community, a minority who are not strong in their union organisation or in their ability to exert political pressure, to further his own political ends in relation to the payment of money by local authority tenants. That is a disgraceful state of affairs.
  1298
  Moreover, he does this at a time when he freezes the wages of persons employed by the hospital service who are occupying these houses as a condition of their service. I cannot think of a more disgraceful piece of behaviour on the part of the Scottish Office. Even hon. Members opposite have consciences, and they have already admitted the substance of the case by withdrawing the full effect of their previous circular.
  I feel it right in this debate to ask the Under-Secretary of State to give us some facts. Will he tell us how many people are involved in the hospital service who occupy these houses and whose rents are to be raised? Will he give an all-round Scottish figure for the amount by which these rents are being raised in relation to the existing rents? Will he give us an all-round figure of the increased contribution which these people will have to make in relation to the increase made in the assessment of their houses? Will he tell us what is the relationship of many of these employees to their English counterparts? It is often argued by the Scottish Office that Scottish hospital personnel benefit more favourably than do their English counterparts who occupy such houses in the South. Because of local concessions made by boards of management, it is difficult to have a scale of comparison between the two countries, but the onus of proof lies on the Scottish Office. It is for the Scottish Office to show that the hospital employees in Scotland get greater benefit than do their English and Welsh colleagues in the hospital service.
  It is not fair for them to allege, as they have done privately and publicly, that somehow or other these hospital personnel enjoy an advantage which their colleagues south of the border do not share. My information is that many of our English friends in the hospital service enjoy a higher standard of remuneration in practice than do our Scottish people. I should like the Under-Secretary to give us some facts—facts which have been denied many of the persons most intimately concerned with this matter.
  Apart from those facts, I urge these courses of action on the Under-Secretary. I should like him to reconsider

  1299
  the valuations made of hospital houses in Scotland. I should like him to instruct hospital boards of management to re-assess the position of hospital houses under their control, and of which they are the legal occupiers, to see whether an appeal against the Treasury valuer ought not to be lodged even at this late date. I go further: the Scottish Office ought to facilitate any late appeals that may be contemplated on its own initiative or on the initiative of hospital boards of management.
  Secondly, I urge that these contributions to rates, wherever they may be, ought to be considered by the Scottish Office, as distinct from the position in England, as a factor in the present negotiations before the Whitley Council. Representing the management side on the Whitley Council, the Scottish Office ought to accept that the rates are a further burden on the persons living in the houses and represent a decrease in the real value of wages of hospital employees in relation to their remuneration through the hospital service.
  Thirdly, I urge that the rents ought to be reconsidered in the light of all these complexities, and that the Scottish Office ought to realise that the rents are part of the conditions of service—that the houses are, in fact, tied houses, and should be considered in the light of that and all the disadvantages which arise from it.
  The last thing which I feel is important is that the Scottish Office ought to realise that with the shortage of personnel in the National Health Service, particularly in Scotland—one could go so far as to say that in almost every category of the service there is a shortage of personnel—it is foolish to put further impositions on our people and expect them to perform their duties, which they loyally do, in the hospital service subject to impositions which are unfair, inequitable and unjust.
  I ask the Under-Secretary not to give us just a Departmental brief in answering the debate but to accept that many of us are genuinely concerned about this unfair treatment of a minority of Scots. We want him to think about the matter. Even if it means deferring a decision tonight, I strongly urge him to do so.
  11.28 p.m.
  Miss Margaret Herbison: I support the case so ably made by my hon. Friend the Member for Greenock (Dr. Dickson Mabon). He said—I want to take up this point in particular—that the boards of management ought to ensure that the assessment of the Treasury assessor was right, and if it was not, there should be an appeal. It does not matter how strongly the occupant of the house feels that the house has been assessed too highly; he has no right of appeal. Only the board of management can do it.
  Only today I had a reply from the Financial Secretary to the Treasury about the matter of an isolated hospital house which I had taken up with him, and he regarded my taking it up as an appeal on behalf of the individual. That seems to stress what my hon. Friend has said. I have seen another letter to an hon. Member from the secretary of a board of management. It said that the individual concerned did not need to stay in his house if he was aggrieved with the assessment and the consequent rent, but could get out. That was the harshest kind of reply that could possibly have been sent. This was a man who was doing important public service and a man who, if he took that advice, could not find other accommodation.
  There has been great harshness in the Whole of this matter and in my constituency the majority of those involved have had their cases taken to the assessor. The Under-Secretary has been given the facts and figures which show that even on the new assessments these houses are still in an unfavourable position compared with other houses in the same area. It seems to me that the Secretary of State has made use of this small section of people, and I understand that his official who took part in the discussions made it clear that the right hon. Gentleman was doing this because otherwise he could not tell the local authorities to charge higher tents since they would reply, "What are you doing about houses under your control?"
  The men and women about whom we are speaking perform an important service. Many of them work in hospitals for the mentally ill. Their work is hard enough, the conditions are not good, and

  1301
  the salaries are very inadequate without this extra imposition that is being placed upon them. I hope that the Under-Secretary will try to get his right hon. Friend to make some change in the assessments and do what he has the power to do in lowering the rents which he is now asking.
  11.32 p.m.
  The Joint Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. T. G. D. Galbraith): One thing which I must hand to the hon. Member for Greenock (Dr. Dickson Mabon) and his hon. Friends is that they have been very persistent in this matter of the rents of hospital houses. They have made representations by letter, by deputation, by Parliamentary Question and now by means of this debate. The only trouble is that their persistence, as so often is the case with the party opposite, is entirely misdirected.
  It is a great pity that they do not use their energies on more worthy objects than on always seeming to oppose any change in rents everywhere. Theoretically they sometimes agree, but never in practice. This tendency of theirs may indicate that they have a good heart but it certainly does not indicate that they have good sense. Their opposition to these changes is utterly unrealistic.
  Miss Herbison rose—
  Mr. Galbraith: No, I cannot give way.
  Miss Herbison: The hon. Gentleman has plenty of time.
  Mr. Galbraith: If I have, the hon. Lady will have an opportunity of intervening before the end.
  Miss Herbison: When deputations met the Secretary of State and the Under-Secretary we made it clear that neither we nor the tenants of hospital houses were opposed to an increase which would be reasonable. The objection was to the steepness of the proposed increase.
  Mr. Galbraith: That is my point. The hon. Lady theoretically never opposes increases but in practice she always does.
  Perhaps I should begin by explaining to the House the reason for the introduction last November of new arrangements
  1302
  for hospital house rents by saying a few words about the present situation. The hon. Member asked about the number of people involved. Altogether there are now about 2,000 hospital staff houses in Scotland all of which are owned by the Secretary of State.
  The majority of these were taken over in 1948 and their distribution throughout the country was governed by the policy of the former hospital authorities. As might be expected, the rents of the houses showed great variety. In some cases a free house or a very cheap house was even regarded as part of the remuneration. [Hon. Members: "Hear, hear."] However, from the beginning of the National Health Service the conception of a cheap house forming part of remuneration was abandoned in favour of national rates of pay that were adequate in themselves. I am sure that no one would dispute that this is the right policy. As part of that policy, in 1950, under a Labour Government, the first steps were taken to rationalise rents and they were brought into line with the rents of comparable local houses.
  This, of course, produced an increase in some cases organised by the party opposite, which, when it was in power—I agree with hon. Members opposite in this respect—acted rather more responsibly than it seems to be doing just now. [Interruption.] The hon. Gentleman says I contradicted myself. I did not contradict myself at all. When the party opposite was in power it showed rather more responsibility in this matter than it does just now. That is the point I was making.
  In spite of these changes, rents still remained very low. A sample survey carried out in 1959 showed that the average rent of all hospital houses in Scotland was less than £16 per annum. Since this sample included some quite large houses occupied by senior doctors, it is not surprising to find that some of the houses were let at rents as low as £2 13s., £3 18s., and £4 6s. per annum. Such rents were clearly indefensible at a time when my right hon. Friend was urging local authorities to follow a more realistic rent policy—and this answers the point raised by the hon. Lady.
  The hon. Gentleman also suggested that my right hon. Friend had gone about things in the wrong way and that

  1303
  he should have waited till local authorities' rents were higher before raising rents of hospital houses. I think, however, that my right hon. Friend would have been open to severe censure if he had adopted this course of action. Example, after all, carries more weight than exhortation. It would have been very strange if the Secretary of State had pressed local authorities to increase the rents of their houses and had done nothing about the houses under his own control, particularly when—
  Mr. A. Woodburn: Taking the hon. Gentleman's figures, these were conditions of service accepted by the employees and by the Government for a considerable time. If these conditions of service are altered without negotiation with the employees, it means enforced reduction in the conditions of their service—in fact, enforced reduction of their wages. Is that the way the Government treat their employees?
  Mr. Galbraith: I think the right hon. Gentleman is wrong when he says these are conditions of service, because in fact they are not.
  What I was saying was that this would be particularly wrong for the Secretary of State when last year the revaluation of all property in Scotland provided a reasonable new basis for calculating rents of hospital houses.
  Since these hospital houses are Crown property, the new valuations were fixed by the Treasury Valuer and not by the local assessor. This fact, as the hon. Lady pointed out, has caused some tenants misgivings. But in fixing his valuations the Treasury Valuer has kept in touch with the local assessor and has applied the same general principles. For both the Treasury valuer and the local assessor, the basis of the gross valuation has been the rent at which the houses might be expected to let.
  The valuation takes into account the size of the house, its condition, the amenities it offers, its geographical position, remoteness, and so on. It, therefore, seemed to my right hon. Friend that these valuations might not unfairly be used as the basis for the new rents.
  Of course, he recognised that if the rents were increased at once to the full
  1304
  amount of the new valuations some tenants might have to pay a considerable increase, because their old rents had been at a very low level. For this reason, he decided to bring the new arrangements into effect in stages related to the incomes of the tenants. This change in the rent structure, therefore, was not a harsh move, as the hon. Lady suggested, but one carried out with concern for the tenants, so that they would have time to adjust their finances to the scheme.
  In addition, special arrangements were made for tenants who had to live in particular hospital houses as a condition of service. In order to compensate them for any disadvantages resulting from this lack of choice, boards of management were given discretion to allow reduction of rent up to 15 per cent. Furthermore, although he was not required to do so, my right hon. Friend before introducing the new scheme, informed representatives of the Staff side of what was in his mind, and discussions took place. This partly meets the point raised by the right hon. Member for East Stirlingshire (Mr. Woodburn). Rents are not, however, part of the conditions of service.
  Unfortunately, the staff wanted the rents left on their existing basis, although, as I have indicated, the existing basis has produced rents which by no stretch of the imagination could be termed reasonable.
  Miss Herbison: The hon. Gentleman is quite wrong.
  Mr. Galbraith: The hon. Lady keeps saying that I am quite wrong, but this is one of the cases where I am quite right.
  Miss Herbison Miss Herbison indicated dissent.
  Mr. Galbraith: Accordingly, the Secretary of State had to go ahead alone and the scheme was introduced on 11th November, as the hon. Member said. One aspect of the scheme has, however, caused slight difficulty, and I now come to the point to which the hon. Member for Greenock referred. The arrangement is based on the gross valuation of the house. Some tenants, however, considered that the valuation of their houses was too high and they made representations to the Treasury Valuer; they cannot appeal, but they

  1305
  can make representations. The hon. Member may be interested to know that to date representations have been made in 517 cases. The number dealt with already is 251; in 194 cases, reductions were made. There are thus still 266 cases outstanding.
  Dr. Mabon: Will the hon. Gentleman undertake tonight to instruct all boards of management to review hospital houses in their area with a view to appealing if they think it wise, against the Treasury Valuer's assessment?
  Mr. Galbraith: I will certainly consider that.
  Because of the number of cases still outstanding, my right hon. Friend decided to introduce a slight modification to be helpful to the tenants. As the hon. Member is aware, it was the original intention that the second stage of the increases should take place this spring, after the scheme had been in operation for six months. Since then, however, the date of determining appeals against the valuation of ordinary property has been extended to Whitsun, 1962. Because the result of these appeals may have a direct bearing on some of the hospital houses which are valued by the Treasury Valuer and against which representations have been made, my right hon. Friend has decided to postpone the second stage of increase in rent until 11th November, by which time these valuation points will have been disposed of.
  Although there have been complaints by the Staff Side, I should like to make it clear that, from the outset, the scheme has been accepted by most of the tenants. Nobody, of course, likes paying more for anything. I am, therefore, glad to acknowledge the way in which these naturally unwelcome proposals have been accepted by most people as being perfectly fair and reasonable. I should, perhaps, add that although the Confederation of Health Service Employees has not withdrawn opposition to the general principles of the scheme, it has decided to advise those of its members who have not yet paid their increase to do so now.
  Dr. Mabon: They have no alternative.
  Mr. Galbraith: The hon. Member made a number of criticisms, but there are a number of points which he should bear in mind and to which insufficient weight has been given. First, references have been made to increases as high as 300 or 400 per cent. I have an example of a house for which there has been an increase of 300 per cent., but the rent is still under 10s. per week. Nobody would regard that as being excessive. Secondly, everything has been done to avoid hardship falling on the tenants. Not only has the 5s. increase, which originally was to be for six months, been extended for a whole year, but where the regional hospital board finds that somebody who has to occupy a house is occupying one larger than he would normally use, it is allowed to make an abatement in excess of 15 per cent.
  The third consideration, which is of great importance, is that the average of the new rents in Scotland will not be any greater—in fact, it will probably be rather less—than the average level of rents of hospital houses in England and Wales. As far as we can make out, the English average is about £47 per annum. There is uncertainty concerning Scotland because not all the appeals have been settled; but the figure will be a little more than £40. This is relevant because members of staff of the hospital service throughout Great Britain are on common rates of pay; and when that is so, I cannot see why the staff in Scotland should have substantially lower rents for comparable houses than their similarly paid colleagues in England and Wales. This fact of common rates of pay seems to me to close the argument—
  The Question having been proposed after half-past Ten o'clock and the debate having continued for half an hour, Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to Orders.
  Adjourned at a quarter to Twelve o'clock.

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  OFFICIAL SECRETS ACTS (PROSECUTIONS)
  OFFICIAL SECRETS ACTS (PROSECUTIONS)
  SPACE RESEARCH
  SPACE RESEARCH
  SIR ROY WELENSKY
  SIR ROY WELENSKY
EDUCATION
  Colleges of Advanced Technology
  Colleges of Advanced Technology
  Educational Building, 1963–64
  Educational Building, 1963–64
HOME DEPARTMENT
  Drunkenness, London (Convictions)
  Drunkenness, London (Convictions)
  LAOS (CONTROL COMMISSION EXPENDITURE)
  LAOS (CONTROL COMMISSION EXPENDITURE)

Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Oxford
The Lord Jeffreys—Sat first in Parliament after the death of his grandfather.

LAND OWNED BY BRITISH RAILWAYS
2.36 p.m.
LORD BOSSOM: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will state the approximate area within the limit of Greater London held in the possession of British Railways, and which, like Park Avenue, New York City, could be covered and thus make available a considerable area of land on which to build housing accommodation or blocks of flats, factories, thoroughfares, et cetera, but would in no way restrict or limit the full and free use of the land below for railway uses.]
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF TRANSPORT (LORD CHESHAM): My Lords, before answering the noble Lord's Question, I should explain that this is a complex matter. The actual use that could be made of the land owned by British Railways will be governed largely by factors partially or wholly outside the control of the railway, such as planning require-merits and the availability of finance. It can therefore by no means be assumed that the amount of land I mention can in practice be developed to its full potential.
British Railways own in the Greater London area approximately 1,350 acres of land which it is thought could, if redeveloped, whether with decking-over techniques or otherwise, ultimately be used for combined operational and non-
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operational purposes or wholly for non-operational purposes. It is estimated that, in addition to this 1,350 acres, an area amounting to about 300 acres could eventually be made available, where physical circumstances permitted, by decking over existing operational land.
LORD BOSSOM: My Lords, while thanking my noble friend for that Answer, is it not a fact that this is nationalised land, and, if it were decked over, would there not be a great saving for the ratepayer and taxpayer in using it as it could be used, and is used in several other countries, to the great advantage of the railways and of the general public? Is there any reason why this is not done in this country when it is done in several countries in Europe and in America?
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, I think my noble friend is right in principle about this use of the land. There are two factors that I think he must remember. One is that, as things are at present, and have been up to now, the railways have not had powers to develop their own land. Secondly, I understand—my noble friend will know more about it than I do—that this business of decking over and building on top is extremely expensive, and that in many instances, while technically possible, it might be difficult to spend the money to advantage and obtain a return from it.
EARL HOWE: My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether the decking-over idea mentioned just now covers the use of development of this land for car parks?
LORD CHESHAM: I expect it could be, my Lords.
LORD MORRISON OF LAMBETH: My Lords, if this idea were to be adopted—and I agree it is worthy of consideration, though there are practical difficulties—would it be the case that, unless the railways were electrified, there would be objection on grounds of smoke; and even holes made above would be objectionable because the smoke would meet the public? Am I not right in saying that the New York railways which terminate underground in New York City are all electrified?
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, I should have thought that it was certainly much more desirable. The noble Lord is right: it would be better to build over electrified lines, because with diesel or steam there would certainly have to be the necessary ventilation and smoke escape.
LORD BOSSOM: My Lords, is my noble friend aware that the railways in Chicago are all smoke railways, or were smoke railways, that they are all decked over and that there is no trouble at all? It is a perfectly simple matter to handle, so the smoke part is no problem. We had a debate on this subject last week. The cost of land is tremendous, and this can be done without delaying a single train. Is my noble friend aware that the Americans built all those buildings—Park Avenue and so on—without delaying a solitary train? It was all done without undue expense. I think we should find it would be better than buying the land we now have to buy.
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, I am very interested to hear these facts from my noble friend, and I have no doubt that, as the matter comes to be investigated, due regard will be paid to what he has said.
LORD MORRISON OF LAMBETH: My Lords, whatever the noble Lord, Lord Bossom, may say about the railways underground in Chicago, some of us are old enough to remember the beastly smell of smoke and the sight of the Metropolitan and District Railways in London before they were electrified. We do not want that again.
LORD BOSSOM: If you go to Chicago you do not have it, and that is the simple answer.
LORD SILKIN: My Lords, could the noble Lord say whether discussions are in fact taking place between British Transport and the London County Council, and, if so, could he say what progress is being made with those discussions?
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, I can certainly tell the noble Lord that such discussions are going on. I cannot tell him positively what progress is being
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made with them because I understand it has been found that it is a question of dealing with sites almost individually because of their varying characteristics.
LORD WILLIAMS OF BARNBURGH: My Lords, might I ask the noble Lord whether he has any reason to doubt that those in charge of the railways, which, of course, include these bits of land here and there, will fail to commercialise their land if they find a suitable opportunity?
LORD CHESHAM: What I have a little doubt about is whether that question arises from the Question put down by my noble friend.

OLD AGE PENSIONERS AND MILK PRICES
2.44 p.m.
LORD FORBES: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, when next giving further assistance to the old-age pensioners, they will consider introducing a scheme whereby old-age pensioners will be able to benefit by obtaining milk at a reduced price.]
LORD DENHAM: No, my Lords. It is not the policy of the Government to revert to the position of paying National Insurance benefits in kind rather than in cash.
LORD FORBES: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his reply. Might I ask Her Majesty's Government whether they realise that by giving milk in kind to pensioners they would be defeating two problems with one shot; the problem of the pensioners and also the problem of the surplus of milk?
LORD DENHAM: My Lords, a scheme by which pensioners could buy milk at a reduced price might lead to some increase in sales, which would benefit the farmers; but it is not considered that this possible advantage to milk producers outweighs the disadvantages inherent in any such scheme.

THE FEDERATION OF THE WEST INDIES
2.46 p.m.
LORD WALSTON: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether the Government of the Federation of the West Indies have intimated to them the result of any deliberations that may have taken place in the Federal Parliament concerning the desire of Jamaica and Trinidad to leave the Federation.]
THE MINISTER OF STATE FOR COLONIAL AFFAIRS (THE EARL OF PERTH): My Lords, I understand that on February 22 the Federal House of Representatives passed a resolution authorising the despatch of a delegation to London to present a case for the continuance of the present Federation. The delegation is expected to arrive about March 2.
LORD WALSTON: My Lords, I thank the noble Earl for his Answer and would ask him whether he can give us an assurance that, pending the arrival of the delegation and hearing their case, no irrevocable steps will be taken in connection with the future of the Federation?
THE EARL OF PERTH: My Lords, I think the answer to that is that any steps will be announced to both Houses because, as your Lordships may recall, we have undertaken to introduce a Dissolution Bill within the fairly near future and that will give one an opportunity to debate or stop any action happening which would be irrevocable.
LORD WALSTON: My Lords, is it the intention of Her Majesty's Government to introduce this Bill prior to hearing the case which will presumably be put forward by the delegation coming from the Federal Parliament?
THE EARL OF PERTH: I think the answer to that is probably, Yes, my Lords.

THE BARBADOS, WINDWARD AND LEEWARD ISLANDS
2.48 p.m.
LORD WALSTON: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government, what assistance and encouragement they are giving to Barbados, the Windward Islands and the Leeward Islands to form themselves into some form of federation, following upon the collapse of the Federation of the West Indies.]
THE EARL OF PERTH: My Lords, the position is that the Premier of Barbados and the Chief Ministers of the other seven territories have themselves suggested that they should form a federation, and the suggestion is, in the view of Her Majesty's Government, a promising one. I understand that they are meeting together this week to consider this suggestion further. This move is welcome to Her Majesty's Government, but clearly a plan with a reasonable chance of success must be worked out before Her Majesty's Government can be committed to encouraging its formation. In the meantime, every effort is being made to ensure that the common services continue while the future of the individual territories is being considered.
LORD WALSTON: My Lords, will there be present at this conference, which I am very glad to hear is taking place, any representative of Her Majesty's Government, or possibly even the Governor General himself, to give active assistance in the setting up of this proposed organisation?
THE EARL OF PERTH: I think the answer to that is, No, my Lords. We feel it is much better for the Governments concerned, as it were, to thresh out the issues involved before we try to take any part in it.
LORD WALSTON: My Lords, I am sure it is interesting to the House that Her Majesty's Government feel that, but would it not be advisable to make sure whether the Governments of Barbados and the small islands themselves share that feeling, and to ascertain from them whether it would be of assistance to

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them to have some such adviser, observer or assister present for these deliberations?
THE EARL OF PERTH: My Lords, I think that since the initiative for the conference is theirs, we must leave it to them to invite whoever they so wish.

GALE DAMAGE IN NORTH-EAST ENGLAND
2.50 p.m.
LORD SILKIN: My Lords, I beg to ask Her Majesty's Government the Question of which I have given Private Notice:
"To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they have any statement to make on gale damage in North-East England, and what action they propose to take, particularly in respect of financial assistance."
THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF HOUSING AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT (EARL JELLICOE): My Lords, as the whole House knows, the gale on the night of Sunday, February 11, and the still more serious gale on the following Thursday and Friday, caused widespread damage. In the West Riding of Yorkshire and North Derbyshire, where the worst of the damage seems to have occurred, it is estimated that something like 400,000 houses were damaged. The scale of the damage ranges from the loss of a few tiles or slates to total destruction. Fortunately, comparatively few cases fall in the latter category, but in Sheffield alone 400 houses were a total loss.
Given the scale of the damage, it is obvious that full repairs will take months to complete. The urgent need, therefore, is to carry out first-aid repairs to keep out the weather, and local authorities have been urged to organise such repairs both to their own houses and where necessary to private property. In addition to the visit of my right honourable friend the Minister of Housing and Local Government to Sheffield on February 18, I have myself paid two visits to the area to see what was being done and what the needs were. Stocks of tarpaulins and ladders have been made available from Government sources and the Ministry of Works have been active in speeding
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delivery of these and other materials needed. So far no serious shortages have been reported. Although an enormous amount remains to be done, it is, I think, fair to say that the situation is under control. Civil Defence workers, the Women's Voluntary Services and other volunteers have given invaluable help, to which I should like to pay a sincere tribute.
It is impossible at the present stage to hazard any estimate of the total bill or of the need for financial assistance from Government sources. Much, of course, will be covered by insurance. The Lord Mayor of Sheffield has opened a relief fund to deal with such things as damage to household effects and preparations have been made for launching a regional relief fund, if needed. The Government will be prepared to contribute to the extent needed, up to the limit of £1 for every £1 raised by way of appeal. So far as the cost of repairs to local authorities is concerned, if, after taking account of insurance and other factors, it represents an excessive rate burden, the Government will consider sympathetically any requests for special assistance.
LORD SILKIN: My Lords, we are very much obliged for that statement, and I am sure the whole House will wish to echo the words of the noble Earl in expressing our appreciation of the voluntary work which so readily and speedily has been done in that area.
So far as the Answer goes, it appears that the Government are dealing with the problem under two heads: first, the question of first-aid work to buildings themselves; and, secondly, the question of household effects which many families must have lost entirely, or very largely. I gather the Government are accepting full responsibility in the end if the rate burden is too heavy in respect of the repairs to property, but they are accepting only a limited responsibility for household effects. While appreciating that the Lord Mayor of Sheffield has made an appeal and it is hoped that the appeal will be readily responded to, is there any reason why the Government should limit their own contribution to the restoration of the household effects of people to the amount which happens to be realised from this appeal?

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Is there not an obligation on the Government, with the co-operation of the local authority and insurance and so on, at the end of the day to make quite certain that no family which has lost its household effects or suffered grievously as a result of this misfortune should not get the equivalent of what it has lost?
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, I think I should like to say two things in answer to the noble Lord's question. As regards emergency financial assistance, in the first place from such contacts as I have had with the local authorities in the area it would appear that it is not felt there that there is a need at this moment for a regional relief fund of that nature. The reason for that is that, apart from Sheffield and the immediate Sheffield area, where houses were actually destroyed, the damage to houses has not been of the sort to occasion at this moment much damage to goods and chattels, clothing, and that type of thing. I should like to say that first, by way of preface. Secondly I would merely repeat that it seems to the Government that in dealing with emergency assistance of that type there is a great deal to be said far the principle of the Government's matching voluntary contributions.
LORD MORRISON OF LAMBETH: My Lords, are not the Government making the wrong approach to this? Is not my noble friend right, that it is unfair to put the initial burden on the local authority or upon the voluntary fund, to which I have no objection in principle? But this was not an act under the control of the local authority; it was, so to speak, what is sometimes called, perhaps unfairly, an act of God. I admit it was outside the control of the Government, too. But when a local authority or town—or district, indeed, because this went outside the city of Sheffield—meets with grievous things for which they have no responsibility, ought not the nation as such to accept the major responsibility, if not the whole of it?
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, I think there are again two issues involved here. There is the big question which is going to be the big bill of damage to property, and I would submit it is too early at this stage—when the size of the bill is
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unknown, when how much is met by insurance is unknown—to be more precise than I have endeavoured to be. But I have been, I think, fairly precise in saying that the Government accept a residual responsibility here and will look sympathetically at any expenditure borne by the local authority which has caused an excessive burden on its rates. As regards the short-term emergency relief, I would merely again point out that, except for Sheffield and the immediate area, there is no demand from within the region itself for such a relief fund at this moment. A lot, of course, depends on the weather, but at present there is no demand for a general emergency welfare relief fund.
LORD SILKIN: My Lords, I do not think we can profitably pursue this matter, but I should like the noble Earl to appreciate that there is a feeling, certainly on this side of the House, that the Government are wrong in fixing a limit at this stage to the amount of assistance they are going to give. Of course we cannot say what will be the response from private charity or insurance, but to fix a limit and say that if the requirements are greater than a pound for pound the Government will not provide it, is, I think, quite wrong and rather harsh in the circumstances. If the noble Earl will convey that to his right honourable friend we shall be much obliged. Of course, we shall come back to this question later on when we know exactly what the actual figures are.
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL: My Lords, could I ask the noble Earl whether the principle which he has expounded with regard to damaged property would not be equally applicable in times of war? May I remind him that during the war when damage of this kind occurred the Government immediately undertook to be responsible, irrespective of the area?
LORD WILLIAMS OF BARNBURGH: My Lords, might I ask the noble Earl whether when the Government review this unfortunate situation they will interpret "excessive rate burden" very sympathetically?
LORD DERWENT: My Lords, before my noble friend answers that question, may I ask whether there was not war damage insurance?
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, I think there are a number of questions to be answered here and I am not sure I have them all in my mind at the moment. I would say to the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, and indeed to other noble Lords, that I will, of course, see that the various suggestions made are looked at by the Department and are examined by the Government. I do not think that at this stage I should wish to go further than that, save to say that insurance obviously plays a very important part in this general picture.
LORD HAWKE: My Lords, has my noble friend yet managed to formulate any idea as to how great a set-back to the very great building programme going on in the Sheffield area will take place as a result of diversion of labour to repairs?
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, I do not think at this stage it has been possible to assess that particular factor. I would agree with my noble friend that it is one of considerable importance and it is one which I have in fact been inquiring into myself, but the answer I received to my inquiries is that Sheffield themselves do not at this stage know the extent to which it will put back their whole building programme.
LORD WOLVERTON: My Lords, can my noble friend say what proportion of the 400 houses which were completely destroyed will be covered by insurance, and how much of the liability will fall on local ratepayers or, perhaps, on Her Majesty's Government?
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, not without notice.
BARONESS HORSBRUGH: My Lords, can the noble Earl say what proportion of those were prefabricated, temporary houses?
EARL JELLICOE: Not precisely, without notice, my Lords; but there were a large number of prefabricated houses which were, in fact, totally destroyed.

PIPE-LINES BILL [H.L.]
THE MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO (LORD MILLS): My Lords, I beg leave to introduce a Bill to regulate and facilitate the construction, and secure the
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safe operation, of pipe-lines and make provision for matters arising thereout; and to provide that certain pipe-lines shall be plant or machinery for the purposes of the enactments relating to rating in England and Wales. I beg to move that this Bill be now read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 1a.—(Lord Mills.)
On Question, Bill read 1a, and to be printed.

BUILDING SOCIETIES BILL [H.L.]
3.1 p.m.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT KILMUIR): My Lords, I beg to move that this Consolidation Bill be now read a second time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
LORD SILKIN: My Lords, I do not want to say anything about this Bill, especially as I have not seen it; but I should like to ask the noble and learned Viscount a question. I gather from the Press that this is a little more than a Consolidation Bill, and that it does, in fact, make certain amendments to the law on building societies. If the Press are mistaken about it, I have nothing more to say. But if there is any foundation at all for that statement, I should be grateful if the noble and learned Viscount could tell us, in a few words, what are the amendments which this Consolidation Bill proposes to make to building society law.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I understood (I am speaking from memory) that they are only the sort of minor amendments that are made under the Act of 1949, which follow the usual practice in Consolidation Bills. I cannot be precise about that. But perhaps the noble Lord will allow me to check that and to write to him about it. Then he can, if necessary, raise the matter again.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and referred to the Joint Committee on Consolidation Bills.

TELEGRAPH BILL [H.L.]
3.3 p.m.
House in Committee (according to Order), on Report from the Joint Committee on Consolidation Bills.
House resumed. Bill reported without amendment; Report received.

VEHICLES EXCISE BILL [H.L.]
3.4 p.m.
House in Committee (according to Order) (on Report from the Joint Committee on Consolidation Bills).
House resumed. Bill reported without further amendment; Report received.

ARMY RESERVE BILL
3.7 p.m.
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Carrington.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[The LORD MERTHYR in the Chair.]
LORD SHEPHERD LORD SHEPHERD moved, before Clause 1 to insert the following new clause
Option to extend service
".—(1) This section applies to

(a) any person serving in the army under the National Service Act, 1948, and

(b) regular soldiers whose service ends between 1st April and 31st December, 1962.

(2) The Secretary of State may offer to any person to whom this section applies the opportunity to volunteer for a further twelve months' service at regular soldiers' rates of pay and allowances, with a bounty of £150 free of tax on completion of his service."
The noble Lord said: This is the first of a series of Amendments which we on this side of the Committee shall be moving this afternoon. Each is a serious attempt to improve the Bill. May I say, before speaking to the Amendment, how much we regret that our noble Leader is not here this afternoon? We shall miss his pungent remarks.
Before dealing directly with the Amendment I feel that I should again cover some of the ground of the Second Reading debate. It may well be said
890
that these remarks could equally well be made on the occasion of the debates on the Defence White Paper or the Army Estimates; but they are closely related to Army recruiting and manpower, and therefore are extremely relevant to my Amendment. On Second Reading the Government maintained that this Bill is necessary because of the Berlin crisis and the increased tension. The Berlin crisis may well have aggravated the manpower position of the Army. Certainly it drew our attention starkly to what I described, on Second Reading, as a desperate position. In my view, the manpower crisis started with the White Paper of 1957, when the Government decided to abolish National Service. They decided to abolish the regular flow of men into the Army before having achieved a satisfactory rate of Regular recruiting.
On Second Reading, I gave some details of the manpower position in B.A.O.R. I propose to repeat those details. I said that the peace-time establishment of B.A.O.R. was 56,800 men, that in 1961 the physical strength of the Army was in the region of 51,000 men, and that it was estimated by those in B.A.O.R. who know that the figure of manpower they were likely to have available to meet their commitment was in the region of 49,000. The noble Lord, Lord St. Oswald, said that my figures were exaggerated. I am quite prepared to be told that I was misinformed, or that my figures had come from a wrong source, but I have never consciously in this House used exaggeration, particularly in regard to figures.
It may well be that both of us are right, because if you look at the White Paper on Defence you will get one figure of Army manpower strength, and when you then look at the figure issued by the Ministry of Defence in regard to the Army as at January, 1962, you find that there is a considerable discrepancy. But even if both of us are right, there is undoubtedly a manpower shortage in B.A.O.R. in the region of 5,800—that is after taking into account the number of men who are going to be retained in B.A.O.R. during 1962. I believe that the number of men likely to be retained under Clause 1 is going to be from 9,000 to 10,000. Therefore, if this Bill is not passed the Army in Germany under N.A.T.O. may well find itself short of

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15,000 to 16,000 men. That is a very serious position.
We have had it from the Government from time to time that Army recruiting is progressing satisfactorily, and the Army Estimates tell us that the figures for 1961 showed an increase of 25·4 per cent. over 1960. The Army Estimates which have just been issued show that 31,832 men and boys were recruited for either short- or long-term service, but when you look again at the White Paper and take into account the figures as at April 1, 1961, and April, 1962, you find that there has been a net increase of only approximately 6,000 men. If the Army has recruited 31,000 in twelve months and is showing only a net increase of 6,000, I think we must ask the Government: where are the lost thousands? Is it that the men volunteer or enlist and then, for various reasons, decide to leave?
I would submit that the manpower problem of the B.A.O.R. is not a short-term one. I believe that it will be with us for the foreseeable future. Taking into account recruiting into the Regular Army between 1961 and 1962, there was, as I have said, a net increase of 6,000; but in regard to the National Service man, who has made a very large contribution, the number available during this period has declined by 38,000. Therefore there has been a net loss in the Regular Army and the National Service men together of 32,000.
We hear a great deal about the Territorial Army as our first line of reserve. During the last twelve months that force has declined by 86,000 men. If we take into account that figure and also the decline in the Regular Army, we find that the numbers available in our Regular Army and Reserve Forces have declined by in the region of 119,000 men. If this is the case I think it throws up a very serious situation. If the Army in 1961 found itself extremely strained with probably 210,000 to 217,000 men, what position will it find itself in during 1962 with a figure, as given by the White Paper, of some 182,000? And what will be the position in 1963 when, according to the White Paper, it is estimated that the number of men in the Regular Army will be 166,000, with no National Ser-
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vice contribution—unless, of course, the Government decide to use Clauses 2 and 3. One can only come to the conclusion that the Government either intend to use Clauses 2 and 3 rigorously, or are going to reduce their contributions to N.A.T.O. and to our other overseas commitments.
I have spoken at some length on the desperate manpower position of the Army. The Government have decided that something must be done, and done urgently. Therefore, under Clause 1 it is their intention to retain approximately 25,000 men in service—men whom, as I said on the Second Reading, have completed their contract with the country.
THE FIRST LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY (LORD CARRINGTON): Fifteen thousand.
LORD SHEPHERD: Well, that is one figure that we have had, and there are other figures that have been given, because as the noble Lord knows, there are 50,000 National Service men under arms, and those serving after April are the only ones who are being retained. But the noble Lord has said that the figure is 15,000, and I accept it. These 15,000 men have completed their contract and will undoubtedly suffer some hardship. We on this side of the House have given very careful thought, taking into account the Government's difficulty, as to how one could provide these men and reduce the hardship—and, let us face it, the bitterness—among the soldiers.
As I understand it, the National Service man to-day may continue service in the Regular Army if he signs on for 22 years. It is true that he does not have to serve the full 22 years, but need serve only three years, continuing in multiples of 3 years, but he can leave after serving a 3-year term. But this scheme has not proved particularly attractive. There is a further scheme, I understand, whereby a National Service man can volunteer for Regular Army service for 22 years and receive a £200 bounty. A National Service man may volunteer for 6 or 12 months. He receives Regular Army pay, but no bounty. The figures I have of the numbers of National Service men signing on are very disappointing. In 1958, 2,244 signed on; and slightly more in 1960. But in 1961 the figure had

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dropped to 608, and I think we shall want to know, particularly when we discuss the Army Estimates, why the National Service men suddenly in 12 months, ceased to sign on as Regular soldiers?
Coming back to the Amendment, we have tried to find some way of mitigating hardship. In our dislike of the principle the Government have adopted, we have tabled this Amendment, which would make it possible for a National Service man to sign on for a further 12 months, after completion of his National Service, and to receive the same rates of pay as a Regular soldier and, at the completion of his twelve months' extra service with the colours, for him to receive a bounty of £150 free of tax. I believe that the National Service man will respond to this offer. I believe he will respond, perhaps not because he wishes to volunteer for further military service, but because he will have the knowledge that if he does not volunteer, or if there are not sufficient volunteers, under Clauses 1 and 2 the Government will in fact have the power to retain or to recall him. I think that if by an inducement we could get these men to volunteer we should be able to judge more fairly who are those soldiers who will be completing their contracts and who will undoubtedly suffer hardship, financial hardship, with further time away from their families and the loss of freedom of civilian life, because you must find the 15,000 men that the Government require.
I do not think we are going very far away from the principle of the Government's Clause 3. The Government are setting up a reserve of men who will volunteer for the Territorial Army and they will serve and receive a bounty of £150—true, not free of tax, but if they are called up they will receive a £50 bonus. If the Government are prepared to offer these terms to the Clause 3 soldiers, is it not reasonable to expect that they could make a similar offer to those soldiers who are now serving in the Army? I think that there would be a good response to such an offer, if the Government were prepared to adopt it. It would be far better to have volunteers than to retain these soldiers, many of them against their will. In this country we have always believed that one volunteer is better than ten pressed
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men. I think my Amendment would give us an opportunity of making one last effort to find volunteers to provide the manpower for the British Army.
Amendment moved—
Before Clause 1, insert the said new Clause,—(Lord Shepherd.)
VISCOUNT GOSCHEN: I am not going to follow the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, in a slight repeat of his Second Reading speech, because I think everybody knows the situation with regard to shortages of manpower. At first sight, I must admit that this Amendment appealed to me because it might be a way to get volunteers. I was interested in one thing that the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, said, that our trouble started in 1957 when the Government decided to do away with National Service, and now he is coming back to saying that what we want is more volunteers, which seems to be somewhat contradictory. I am quite certain that Her Majesty's Government must have thought of this scheme, because it is one which strikes the eye straight away. I should be very much influenced by whether or not the Government said it could be done. I do not think that this can be done and I would keep to the Bill.
3.25 p.m.
LORD CARRINGTON: I am going to follow my noble friend Lord Goschen by not following the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, in his rather wide remarks, at the beginning of his speech on this Amendment, dealing with manpower, the size of the Army, recruiting, and the latest version of the numbers game. We had a very good debate on all this on the Second Reading of this Bill, in which all these matters were discussed at considerable length. We are about to have a Defence debate in which the noble Lord can produce these arguments again, and we are going to have a debate on the Army Estimates in the not too distant future.
Your Lordships were good enough to give this Bill its Second Reading and now we are discussing a particular Amendment to it. In his Amendment the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, is not questioning the principle of the Bill; as I understand it, he seeks to give the Secretary of State statutory power to offer a voluntary twelve months'

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engagement to whole-time National Service men in the Army and to Regular soldiers whose current engagement finishes at certain dates; the engagement to carry Regular rates of pay and a tax-free bounty of £150 on completion.
The object of the Amendment, as I understand it, is to remove—or at least to reduce—the need to retain and recall men under Clause 1, by providing this short-service engagement with a financial inducement. I am very grateful to him for his suggestion, because of course if we could persuade all the men we need to stay on a little longer voluntarily, that would be the ideal way to overcome our problem. At first sight, like my noble friend Lord Goschen behind me, I thought that this was an attractive proposition and an attractive Amendment. But there is a dilemma here, which I am sure the noble Lord opposite will see at once when he compares the bounty of £150 tax free which he has proposed with the other inducements which are already offered to men to enter on or extend their Regular engagements.
In order to build up the long-term strength of the Army we must rely on a high rate of prolongation of service, and, in considering any scheme of the kind which the noble Lord has in mind for the purely short term, we must be very careful not to upset the inducements to serve for longer periods, nor indeed to be unfair to those who have already accepted those terms. These inducements normally take the form of rates of pay increasing with the length of the engagement.
The dilemma is that to induce men to stay on who would not otherwise think of making any career in the Regular Army would require a bounty out of all proportion to the inducements which we are able to offer to Regulars to prolong their engagements. That is what the noble Lord has proposed, and he has pitched his bounty very high. But I think he has overlooked the other horn of the dilemma which is the disturbance which this, if it were successful, would be bound to cause to the pattern of longer-term engagements. That, naturally, would be inimical to our long-term aims. The Secretary of State, on the other hand, in his efforts to build up the size of the all-Regular Army, has already tried three
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times to tackle this problem from the other angle—that is to say, by offering the largest possible inducement which is compatible with the rest of the Army's pay structure; and each time experience has tended to support the view that a practicable bounty for one year's engagement would not attract men in any worthwhile quantity.
The first of these schemes which my right honourable friend tried, introduced in March last year, offered National Service men enlisting in certain corps Regular three-year rates of pay, with effect from the date of joining or for twelve months, whichever was the shorter period. This was a 22-year engagement but, of course, with an option to leave at the end of three years and at three-year points thereafter. The second and third schemes that he tried offered National Service men and Regulars respectively a taxable bounty of £200 for enlistment on a 22-year engagement with three-year break points; or, in the case of Regulars, for extending their service by three years. I am sorry to say that none of these schemes has fulfilled the hopes that we had. I think it is clear, therefore, that any practicable bounty for one year's engagement—and if £200 (taxable) was the most that the pay structure would stand for a three-year engagement, it follows that it would have to be about one-third of this—just would not attract men in any significant numbers.
I hope that in what I have said I have shown that this Amendment, attractive though it is on the face of it—and I absolutely accept what the noble Lord has said—would in fact be most undesirable in the context of our longer-term aims for an all-Regular Army. It only remains for me to say that this Amendment is, in point of fact, unnecessary, because there is already power under the Army Act to offer Regular engagements for any period which is likely to be acceptable to these men—and bounties, if they were thought desirable, may be paid under the Pay Warrant, which is a Prerogative instrument. I hope that the noble Lord opposite and his friends will think that what I have said needs some thought, and that, in view of what I believe to be the very serious objections to his Amendment, he will not press it but will withdraw it.
LORD SHACKLETON: The noble Lord has certainly made a powerful case against this Amendment, and I really rise only to defend my noble friend from the charge that, in his speech, his part in the "numbers game" was not relevant to this matter. It is largely because we do not trust the Government's figuring in this matter, and the general confusion that seems to exist, practically every time we discuss this subject, with regard to the numbers that the Government require, which made it seem to my noble friend, as it does to me, that this is the basic problem to deploy. The basic problem, as I see it, is that in none of these schemes are we really going to get the men we need; and even if it were necessary to proceed with the full rigour allowed for in this Bill, and we were to call up everybody that there is power to call up under it, the question would still remain: what is going to be done if we should need still more men than we are likely to get? I think it is a little late in the day for the noble Lord to talk about fairness. This is certainly an extremely unfair Bill, as was said in the other place. In fact, I think the noble Lord would himself admit that it is not fair. It is a specialised form of selective service, as he himself called it, forced upon us by the situation in which we now find ourselves.
I would say to the noble Viscount, Lord Goschen, that, once National Service has been abolished, there is no in-consistency in trying to make the voluntary principle extend further. I will not go into the question of the wisdom of the 1957 decision, or whether we ought now to go back on it. As the noble Lord made clear, this is an attempt to try to avoid some of the difficulties, and perhaps reduce not only the number who would be called up under Clause 1 but possibly even the number who would be called up under Clause 2; because this would provide for twelve months, and would therefore extend into the second period, and might reduce the number of those who were going to suffer (the most—namely, those people who would be called hack from civilian life.
I should like to ask this of the First Lord. As I understand it, a £200 bounty is payable to somebody who effectively serves for only three years on a Regular engagement. If that is so, I think it makes it clear that this money may not
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be enough, and that it may be impossible to arrive at any figure that can be sustained. I hope that I have understood him correctly on that point. In that connection, I wonder how far these attempts by the Secretary of State for War were given the publicity that was necessary, and whether, should we proceed with this particular Amendment or not, a new effort ought not to be made on that particular line. That, I think, would go a long way towards achieving what we have been trying to achieve in this Amendment.
I admit that, inevitably, there must be confusion about all these different schemes. Some of these proposals may not have been drawn to the attention of the National Service men as fully as they might have been; and I wonder whether, in the light of the obligations which some of them will now have, or the liability that some of them might now have, they may be more attracted by a voluntary scheme, whether it is the one which my noble friend has proposed or the one which the Secretary of State for War has proposed and which, we understand, has failed. I do not doubt that that scheme still exists, but perhaps the noble Lord will consider whether, in the light of this new situation in which we find ourselves, where there is to be this liability on National Service men, attention could not be drawn to that scheme in the same way as attention will be drawn to the "Ever-readies" scheme.
LORD CARRINGTON: I did not in the least want to appear to be rebuking the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, for talking rather widely on his Amendment I was just making the point that I was not going to follow him; that I was going to talk about the Amendment. I should be happy to join with him in the next instalment of the "numbers game" in the debate on Defence, which should take place in a month or so.
The noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, has asked me about the voluntary scheme for three years with a bounty of £200 (taxable). This was given very great publicity, and continues to be given very great publicity, within the Army. I think I am right in saying that it runs until April of this year, because after that it will not be worth while: there will not be enough National Service men able to stay on. However, it has been

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given a great deal of publicity. It started off rather slowly, and few people did take on, but just recently there have been one or two more. But I should be misleading the noble Lord if I led him to think that any great number will be joining the Army as a result of that voluntary scheme. And, of course, the higher you make the bounty which is proposed in the noble Lord's Amendment, the more objectionable does his Amendment become, for the reasons I gave in my original answer. I hope, therefore, that the noble Lord will see his way clear to withdrawing his Amendment.
LORD SHEPHERD: I thank the noble Lord for his reply to my Amendment I do not think I will take him up on his offer to play the "numbers game" during the Defence debate. In fact, I think the last time I played Bingo was as a soldier on my way to the Middle East during the war. The noble Lord's main criticism of the Amendment, as I understood it, was that the bounty was set rather high, and that it would cause ill-feeling among those Regular soldiers who have signed on However, I would say to him that the bounty is no higher than that which is in fact being offered to those persons who are prepared to volunteer under Clause 3. As the Minister said in the other place, if I recall his words aright, a soldier enlisting might be in a position to give his wife and family a very nice present for very little effort. I do not know whether that is going to be the case, but the Minister obviously believes that these persons will be joining up voluntarily under Clause 3, that they will do a certain amount of training with the Regular Army, and that they may not be called up: but they are going to receive £150 for joining up.
I should not have thought, therefore, that my suggested bounty to National Service men who have already completed their obligations under the National Service Act, 1948, was too high; and I think that, in the circumstances, they should have the opportunity of volunteering for a further twelve months—not six months, but for a further twelve months—with a bounty of £150. I will not argue with him whether that £150 should be free of tax or whether it should be taxable;
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but I should have thought that, in the circumstances, with the possibility of Clauses 1 and 2 affecting the soldier, you would get a good response.
I do not propose to divide the House on this Amendment. However, I would ask the Minister whether he would consider this matter once again. You have the short-term problem of getting 15,000 men. It would be better to get them from volunteers. I do not think the country would object to finding an extra sum of money to provide some inducement for those men to volunteer; far better that way than having to use Clauses 1 and 2. I beg leave to withdraw this Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 1 [Retention of National Servicemen in Army service]:
LORD SHEPHERD: I need speak only briefly on this Amendment. On page 4, line 15, of the Bill the Secretary of State has obligated himself from time to time to report to Parliament with respect to his powers to recall persons under Clause 2 and Clause 3 of the Bill. We feel that as the Minister is taking special powers in regard to these soldiers who are now serving, he should make a report to Parliament on the use of these very special powers. Later on I shall be moving, probably in more words, an Amendment on the need for a report on a three-monthly basis on the use of Clauses 2 and 3; but at the present moment I rest my case merely on the facts that the Minister has undertaken to inform Parliament of the use of Clauses 2 and 3, and that I feel he should make a similar report to Parliament in regard to Clause 1. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 1, line 21, at end insert—
(" ( ) The Secretary of State shall every three months lay before Parliament a report showing how many persons he has retained under each of the last two foregoing subsections.")—(Lord Shepherd.)
LORD ST. OSWALD: I always listen to the noble Lord with the greatest of care, whether he speaks briefly or whether he speaks at greater length. In reply to a remark he made earlier, I should hate him to think that, when I called the figures in his Second Reading

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Speech exaggerated, I intended to suggest that they were exaggerated after they came into his hands. Indeed, I was suggesting they were exaggerated before they came into his hands. As to the noble Lord's present Amendment, I fully understand, and sympathise with, his desire to ensure proper Parliamentary control over the operation of the powers conferred on the Secretary of State by this Bill in order to safeguard, so far as possible, the rights of the individuals who may be affected by them. I will again make two points which I made on Second Reading. The Government have no desire to retain more men than is absolutely and militarily necessary. I also emphasised that the powers under Clause 1 would be very short-lived. They will, in fact, expire when the last National Service men have completed their whole-time service in October or November next.
The need for these powers and the extent to which they would be used during this very short period have, of course, been fully explained in Parliament and are appreciated by the noble Lord. It has been made quite clear that the powers would have to be invoked immediately after the Bill is passed, allowing for due notice to be given to the men concerned. I really do not think that, having regard to this and to the very short period during which the powers under Clause 1 will be in operation, any additional Parliamentary safeguards are called for. A distinction is made in the case of Clauses 2 and 3, which will be in operation for a longer period; and provision, in subsection (3) of Clause 4, for the Secretary of State to keep Parliament informed about the exercise of the powers in Clauses 2 and 3, to recall part-time National Service men, and to call out the Territorial Army Emergency Reserve, is written into the Bill. He may make a report either before or after the powers are exercised.
Having drawn the attention of the noble Lord to the fact that we do in fact appreciate, as he does, the importance of such provisions in the longer-term clauses—the terms with the longer life—I hope he will agree with me that in this first clause, which has a very short life and which is to be invoked so soon after the passing of the Bill, they become both needless and impracticable.
LORD SHACKLETON: I must confess I think the noble Lord has made a very good case for adopting this Amendment. I simply cannot understand the argument that what is good for a longer period is not good for a shorter period. If in fact the Government think it desirable to keep Parliament informed in regard to Clause 2 and Clause 3—although one might argue that Clause 3 was a special case—I cannot see why you ought not to do it with Clause 1. If it is arguable that it is not worth the trouble or is not worth doing, then is it worth doing for Clause 2 and Clause 3? This is a short period, and the men are about to be called up. This is going to run effectively now for another year or eighteen months, and for another year people may be called up, as late as next October.
LORD ST. OSWALD: That does not make it eighteen months.
LORD SHACKLETON: But it certainly will be the case for the next nine months. Why should we not have a progress report? I do not know; it may be it is not worth doing at all; but in this connection I cannot see the difference between six months and nine months and two years.
LORD ST. OSWALD: There are two points here, surely. First of all, my right honourable friend has already announced that he proposes to call up 15,000 men during the first period. The call-up affects men only up to the moment they are called up. After they have been called up it no longer affects them. So the period is certainly not eighteen months but, as I have said, until October or November of this year, when no more men can be called up under Clause 1. Certainly we think this is impracticable and unnecessary.
LORD SHEPHERD: I would not want to make a debating point, but it is not a question of call-up but of retaining.
LORD ST. OSWALD: Yes, it is a question of retaining.
LORD SHEPHERD: I still do not see why the Government cannot at least give us some crumbs of comfort. We believe that the Minister has taken special powers in regard to 15,000 soldiers. We feel there should be some

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accountability to Parliament. He recognises that duty in regard to Clauses 2 and 3. The period is immaterial. If he has taken the view that there should be accountability in regard to Clauses 2 and 3, then I believe he should accept it so far as Clause 1 is concerned.
LORD CARRINGTON: If I may join in this debate, may I say that Clauses 2 and 3 last very much longer than Clause 1, which, as the noble Lord himself said, lasts only as long as October or November of this year. The difference between the two is this. The Secretary of State in another place, and myself in this House, have explained at great length what the proposals are, what we intend to do, and how many men we intend to retain under Clause 1. This operates for only nine months. The noble Lord is quite entitled to put down Parliamentary Questions at any moment when the House is sitting to find out how this is going; there is nothing to stop him from doing that. But for a very short time, to put a statutory obligation in a Bill of this kind is thought by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State and the War Office to be unnecessary. There is no intention or desire whatever to deny the noble Lord or other noble Lords opposite any information or knowledge about how things are going. We are only too happy at any time to provide as much information as we have at our disposal. But the Secretary of State has explained at great length what he proposes to do under Clause 1, and on the whole I think it would be unnecessary to make a statutory provision here.
On Question, Amendment negatived.
3.50 p.m.
LORD SHACKLETON LORD SHACKLETON moved to add to Clause 1:
"( ) Any notice served under subsections (1) and (2) of this section shall be accompanied by a statement informing the recipient of his rights to appeal on the grounds that his retention will inflict unusual hardship either upon himself or his dependants, and the manner in which such an appeal should be made."
The noble Lord said: Perhaps we could discuss Amendments Nos. 3 and 4 is concerned with this difficult question of appeal and is designed to establish clearly that any National Service man together. I beg to move No. 3, which
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who wishes to appeal against his retention is made aware of the rights that he has, the extent of redress he can seek and the channels through which the matter will go. The later Amendment widens the right of appeal. The purpose of the Amendment is, as much as anything else, to elucidate precisely what the position is with regard to the right of appeal. I am well aware that in another place the Government gave a full account of the system, but it is so important that there should be no slip that affects any individual that I should like to hear again from the Government a statement of the methods which they propose.
It all sounds good and easy. There is the Advisory Committee, the Denning Committee, which I take it will actually sit in judgment on difficult cases. As I understand the procedure at the moment, an appeal is made to the commanding officer, who may turn it down or forward it to the War Office. Presumably the War Office may accept that there is hardship and grant release. If it is a difficult case they may send it to the Advisory Committee. I am not clear, however, about whether, when they think that there is no case, they still have an obligation to consult the Advisory Committee. It is about this machinery that we are particularly concerned.
It is also important that the soldier himself should know what the machinery is. People may feel that he has not had a fair crack of the whip. It is extraordinarily difficult to put this across and for this reason we are proposing to write into the Bill an obligation to meet this need. I do not doubt that the Government's reply is that this is a matter which is better taken care of by ordinary administrative practice. If we are to judge this, it would be helpful to know the terms in which notification will be made to the individual soldier. I do not doubt that the matter will be carefully considered by the War Office. But it is this sort of thing on which acceptance of the scheme will depend and though it may be argued that we are hair-splitting on a matter which is the War Office's own affair, this is something that arouses public concern and may give anxiety about the operation of the scheme.
Undoubtedly, there is anxiety that an appeal may be blocked by a commanding officer. I am not suggesting that

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commanding officers are irresponsible or indifferent to the feelings of men who find themselves in such a situation. On occasion they may be irritated, if they themselves happen to think that the reason is frivolous, but a commanding officer may not always be the best person to judge whether an appeal is frivolous or not. For example, in a later Amendment, to Clause 2, it is proposed to exempt men who are undergoing full-time education. I should like to know whether a reasonable ground for appeal would be that a National Service man had deliberately offered to do his National Service before he went to university. There are many who had a strong urge to do what they believed to be their duty even though they knew that National Service was coming to an end. I know of one man, who is to be released in April and he has a place in a university next October.
The purpose of Amendment No. 4 is obvious. It is to make clear that an appeal should go higher up in the first instance than appears at the moment to be contemplated. I do not propose to press this point very hard because I realise that in the last resort it should come to the Secretary of State, but I should like to know whether, if a commanding officer is inclined to reject an appeal, it will go through either to the Denning Committee or to the Secretary of State.
Amendment moved—
Page 1, line 21, at end insert the said sub section.—(Lord Shackleton.)
VISCOUNT GOSCHEN: I think that the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, has hit the nail on the head, not by means of his Amendment but by one of the points in his speech. He brings out truly that the most important thing is that men who are being kept on by this Bill should have every bit of information in order that they may be satisfied that they have or have not any right of appeal. This is the sort of thing which we have discussed many times in your Lordships' House regarding other military matters—the question of getting the whole chain working on any scheme.
It is important for the men that the platoon commander should know about the scheme so that he may explain it to his men. The platoon commander is
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the beginning of the chain and the most important part of it. He is the father and mother of his platoon and knows his men and their jobs and all about them. He is the beginning of the organisation that is needed to get this thing over. I think that the safeguards in the Bill, with the Advisory Committee, are sufficient and that the War Office Department which has dealt with cases like this for some time is perfectly adequate, but I think that the noble Lord brought out the need for everyone to know all about it.
LORD ST. OSWALD: I am grateful to the noble Lord for being prepared to take these two Amendments together. That seems to us the simpler and more satisfactory way of doing it. I also appreciate the object embodied in both Amendments. The Government's main objection to them is that they seek to make statutory, with all the difficulties of definition and possible litigation which this would involve, a process which can and will be much more simply catered for administratively. The Secretary of State has already given the categorical assurance in another place, and I did so on Second Reading (OFFICIAL REPORT, Vol. 237 (No. 37), cols. 638–9), but I will repeat it to-day: men who are warned or notified that they are due to be retained under Clause 1 of the Bill will be informed that they can appeal on compassionate grounds or on grounds of exceptional hardship. In fact, those likely to be retained under Clause 1 have already received a warning of that. I have in front of me the form in which that warning is given, and although I said the other day that it was incorporated the call-up or retention papers, the fact is that they receive it before then in the form of a warning consisting of two paragraphs. The first paragraph states:
"This is to warn you that it is probable that you will be required to remain in Army service for a period of six months after your current release date."
And paragraph 2 says:
"If you consider that on compassionate grounds, or on grounds of exceptional hardship, you should not be required to remain in Army service after your present release date, or should not be required to serve for the full further period of six months, you must apply in writing immediately to the War Office through your Commanding Officer to be excused."

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Every man who is liable to be retained in the context of the present Amendment has received or will receive that notification, including advice on how to appeal against it. Beyond that, my right honourable friend has given instructions that no appeal is to be held up by a commanding officer so long as it is supported by the proper evidence; and even where an appeal is not supported by evidence of hardship a soldier still has a statutory right under the Army Act to make representations first to his commanding officer and then, if no satisfaction is obtained, to an officer not below the rank of brigadier. I hope this covers most of the anxieties of the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton.
This right of appeal to his commanding officer in the first place is interpreted, and always has been in practice, as a right of appeal in person if the man so desires. There is no reason to fear, therefore, that men will be left in ignorance of their right of appeal; or that they will not be given every facility to present their case fully; or that their appeal, if it is supported by proper evidence, will not be dealt with by the War Office under the special machinery which the Secretary of State has set up for the purpose, and which I explained to your Lordships when the Bill was moved a second time in this House a week or two ago. I did not then explain it very fully, but I can do so in response to the noble Lord's request to-day.
The line of communication is this. The man who thinks he has grounds for appeal enters his appeal through his commanding officer. His commanding officer, as I have already explained, is bound to forward that appeal if this is supported by evidence. It is sent to the Adjutant-General's department of the War Office. If the Adjutant-General's department consider that the evidence is sound—and they are very practised in these matters—they will accept the appeal and instruct the man's commanding officer accordingly. If they are in doubt as to whether it can be accepted or as to whether it should be dismissed, they will in all cases send it on to this new Hardship Advisory Committee. Your Lordships, I am sure, know the constitution of this Committee, but I have the names here if any noble Lord should wish to know them. When they
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have considered this particular individual case they refer their advice to my right honourable friend, who has the final say in the matter.
I very much agree with the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, that what is vitally important is that the soldier should have confidence in the way his case will be considered. I hope that in view of what I have said your Lordships will find that these two Amendments are no longer necessary now that the position is more fully explained.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLS-BOROUGH: I am glad I arrived in time to hear the explanation of the noble Lord. I must say that, while it sounds much better than in the previous stages of the consideration of the Bill, it does not meet the point that that is the sort of thing which should be made perfectly clear in the Bill. It seems extraordinary to me, having read the debates in the other place and heard speeches here, that we have only now begun to understand that there would always be an appeal to the War Office in any case where an appeal was lodged. That was never the impression given to Parliament. The impression given was that if a commanding officer considered that there was some justification for the appeal, then it could be submitted. I think it is abundantly necessary, as things get more and more difficult in getting these things done, and wherever it is possible, that the actual procedure which is to be followed should be in the Bill.
I am quite in sympathy with the idea, whoever else is against it, that when you have trained men available immediately to meet an emergency the proper thing to do is to use them; but when it comes to dealing with questions of individual hardship and so on, then I think it should be made perfectly plain in the statute itself. I do not propose, in the circumstances, to suggest that we should vote against the Government on these particular Amendments, because I am not sure that they would exactly match what it is we want to achieve, in view of the explanation made. What we want to secure is that this clause is amended by the Government in a suitable way to make sure that the facts required by the citizen are in the Bill. Therefore, while, as I say, we will not vote against the Government on this Amendment, we

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shall certainly vote against the clause standing part of the Bill.
LORD SHACKLETON: I am grateful to the noble Lord for his explanation, which I think has taken us a long way further, and I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD SHEPHERD LORD SHEPHERD moved to add the following, subsection to the clause:
"( ) Any person retained under this section shall be deemed to be a member of the Territorial Army for the purposes of section eleven of the Auxiliary Forces Act, 1953, and shall be paid a bounty of a sum equivalent to one hundred days' pay authorised by an order made under the said section eleven."
The noble Lord said: We are still dealing with 15,000 soldiers who are being retained by the Government for a further six months. We have spoken of hardship. It is difficult to assess over 15,000 men what exactly is hardship. For the married man undoubtedly it is further separation from his wife and his home. That is a hardship. He may also have undertaken a special job or educational training which will have to be put off for a further six months. That is a hardship. But he will also suffer some hardship, in my view, on financial grounds. It is true that the soldier who is being retained will receive, during his further six months, Regular Army pay Scale A. I was looking up these scales in the Army Estimates. In the case of a National Service man, after completing 18 months' service he will receive 8s. 6d. per day, or £155 per annum. For his Regular Army period his pay will be uplifted by 4s. a day to 12s. 6d.; that is, to £288 per annum. Therefore, he would be in the same grade. I suppose, on average, the age of the person being retained will be in the region of 20 or 21. I should not have thought it unreasonable to expect, with to-day's wage levels, that if he were a civilian he would be receiving in the region of £10 to £12 a week.
It is true that while he is in the Services he is receiving free accommodation, such as it is—and, as my noble friend Lord Goschen knows, accommodation varies from unit to unit, and some of it is not particularly pleasant. He would regard this provision of accommodation and food as part of the service. Therefore, when one takes into
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account that as a civilian he would probably be earning in the region of £600 a year, and as a Regular soldier he will be receiving only £288 a year, one can estimate that over a period of six months he will be losing the opportunity of earning, at a rough figure, at least £50 to £100. This is quite a hardship. As soon as there is any question of a person's losing something by Act of Parliament, your Lordships' House is the first to rise to seek some compensation for him.
I would submit that, as the Government are keeping these soldiers back, there should be some form of compensation to the soldier for his being retained, certainly to cover part of what he would lose through not being a civilian. My suggestion is that he should receive the equivalent to 100 days' pay, which would be in the region of a bounty of approximately £45. It would vary according to grade, but for the man whose pay I quoted that bounty would be in the region of £45. I do not think it is unreasonable to say to the Government that they are retaining these people. It may well be for us on this side of the House to say they are retaining them because of a gross miscalculation in 1959, when they said that they would not call up the 60,000 men who had already been deferred from National Service. They did not think they needed them. Now they find they do need them, and they are placing this special burden on these 15,000 soldiers. I therefore feel that the Government should make a gesture to these soldiers and permit them to have the bounty as outlined in our Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 1, line 21, at the end insert the said subsection.(Lord Shepherd.)
VISCOUNT MASSEREENE AND FERRARD: I find some favour in this Amendment. I think that National Service men who are retained under this new arrangement should get some compensation. I quite agree that they will get the rates of pay applicable to Regulars under the engagement. I think it would be well received if Her Majesty's Government could pay this bounty for National Service men. It is really a very small sum, and I am sure it would create a good deal of good will.
4.15 p.m.
LORD CARRINGTON: I have listened very carefully to the cogent reasoning of the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, for this Amendment, and I am in rather the same position as I was in the first Amendment that he moved. At the outset, I thought this Amendment had a great deal to be said for it. May I say at once that the Government, of course, accept the principle on which the noble Lord has argued; that is, that this period of further service will cause inconvenience to those concerned, and that on this account there should be some financial concession to those who are affected by it. All that is between us is the extent of the concession and the form it should take.
Of course, inconvenience is a difficult term; it is purely relative. Some men will be affected much more than others, and, of course, inconvenience is quite a different thing from hardship. We are not talking about hardship. When a man is liable to suffer real hardship through retention under Clause 1, he can appeal under the procedure which we have just been discussing under the previous Amendment. If his appeal is successful he will, of course, not be retained. It is extremely difficult to measure in purely financial terms the inconvenience of others whose cases do not justify exemption from this clause. I know that all will have formed an expectation of returning to civilian employment, and I quite agree with the noble Lord that some may have to forgo jobs which have been offered to them. I recognise, too, that for the most part, as it so happens, the men concerned will be the rather older National Service men who have had to have their call up deferred.
The noble Lord will, I know, admit that it is impossible to legislate for every case. But all these men who are retained for a further period of six months will receive the financial concessions referred to by my noble friend behind me. Although they are not Regular soldiers, and will not be committed to service for more than two and a half years in all, they will receive the same rates of pay and marriage allowance as Regulars who are committed to serve for three years, or six months longer in all. I thought the noble Lord opposite
912
rather made light of the difference in the amount of money which these men would get. It is, of course, perfectly true that the rates of pay are as he said. But he must take into account—as I think he did, though rather as an aside—that not only are they housed, but they are also fed and clothed. It is a fair reward for somebody who has no expenses, and, in addition, if he is married he gets the not ungenerous marriage allowance of the Regular soldier.
Now I should like to make this quite plain, as I think there is some confusion about the Army system of pay. As I said in reply to an earlier Amendment, the system is based on the principle that the longer a man is prepared to commit himself to serve, the higher rate of pay he receives, rank for rank. The object of the system is to encourage men to prolong their engagements; so a corporal committed for nine years to the Army receives more than one who is prepared to serve for only six years, even though the men may have joined the Army on the same day and may be serving in the same company. The six-year man gets more than the three-year man. What we are doing is to put the two-and-a-half-year National Service man on terms with the three-year Regular, and this conforms exactly to the principle on which the whole system of Army pay is based.
It is, I think, generally recognised that since 1958, when the Grigg Committee reported, the pay for the Regular services, taking into account the allowances and other benefits, such as free board and lodging, about which I have spoken, is not out of line with that of comparable civilian employment. That is the whole object of Grigg. What we propose, therefore, does, in the Government's view, provide a reasonably broad measure of compensation for such financial hardships as a man may suffer by being retained for a further period. However much one may sympathise with men who are retained, I really do not believe that I can find any justification for paying them more, by way of either bounties or a higher rate of pay, than is paid to the Regular soldiers committed for the same period of service. If it is argued that men who are compelled by Statute to serve in the Forces are suffering a hardship, entitling them

913
to some special compensation which is not called for in the case of a man who has voluntarily contracted to do so, I can only say that that principle has never been accepted by any of the Governments concerned with the operation of the National Service Acts—
LORD SHACKLETON: May I interrupt the noble Lord for a moment? Does not the three-year man, if he has signed on, nevertheless get a bounty?
LORD CARRINGTON: Unless the noble Lord is talking about the bounty scheme he spoke about on the previous Amendment, the man has to sign on for another three years; so it is not a comparable case. No Government has ever accepted the principle that a man who compulsorily serves is rewarded more than a man who volunteers to do so. In fact, the Acts have generally provided that National Service rates of pay are lower than Regular rates—which is, of course, what the noble Lord is worried about.
This does, I think, put into proper perspective the financial concession which we are going to provide for men whose National Service is prolonged. And I would remind your Lordships that this is not the first occasion on which a period of National Service has been extended. It was done in 1950, when, I believe, there was no suggestion that those men who were then affected, in exactly the same way as this latest generation of National Service men will be, suffered a breach of contract which justified the payment of a special bounty. Nor do I think that bounties which will be paid to the Territorial Army Emergency Reserve are in any way analogous. These men will be undertaking a voluntary obligation in return for money, and that is the basis on which all bounties have been paid for many years. They would be quite inappropriate for men answering a statutory liability laid on them by Parliament. For this reason I am afraid that I am unable to accept this Amendment.
4.23 p.m.
LORD LINDGREN: I should not have intervened in this debate but for the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Carrington. I try, in so far as I am able, to keep my speeches within fields in which
914
I have some experience. But the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, seems to forget entirely that here we have a group of men who, had they signed on for three years, would have received the normal rate of pay as Regular soldiers for the three years. Let us be quite plain about it; the three-year engagement which men have accepted over the period of the last few years has been very largely on the basis of men who have gone in, weighing up the pros and cons, saying: "We have got to do two years, so, if we are going to get the enhanced rate of pay right the way through, we shall put up with it for three years". That has been the basis of most three-year engagements. These men, weighing all the facts, have said: "Because of my position in relation to civilian life I am prepared to sacrifice what would be quite a sum of money over the period of the three years in order to take the normal National Service engagement".
Equally, because of that, the man has had to make other sacrifices. I think, with justification, the Armed Forces have said that, unless a man has had a three-year engagement, promotion, apart from exceptional circumstances, is not there. The result has been that the man has to serve in the ranks all the time. Therefore, he has not only been deprived of the additional rate of pay, because in fact he was limited to the period of time and because his own circumstances made that limitation necessary, but he has been deprived of the right of enhanced payment through possible promotion.
The noble Lord will admit that many of these men, because of their general standing, status and qualifications, were good enough for promotion, but that, because they were there only for National Service of a short period, it was not worthwhile promoting them. So they made very considerable sacrifices. The noble Lord says, "Oh, but we have had an extension of National Service before". That is perfectly true. As he said, we had it in 1950, but at the time we had an extension of National Service we did not have an abolition of National Service. These fellows have been unlucky all the way round. Of course there must always be some folk on the demarcation line and these chaps were brought in while others

915
were being by-passed. I think it was just foolish of the Government to abolish National Service, and they might just as well admit that they were foolish in doing so. We have never had a real Army in the true sense of the word. In pre-war days a man usually went into the Army because he was out of work and he wanted food, clothing and shelter. In a period of full employment you will never get what is termed a voluntary army.
Here we have a group of people who face a very difficult situation. Without very much warning, entirely outside the circumstances in which they enlisted, they have had this hardship put on to them. Let us put it another way. Surely, had these fellows known when they went in that they would have to do 2½ years they would undoubtedly have taken—or many of them would—the three-year term; and so they have already been deprived during the period of their two-year service of the enhanced pay during that time. Therefore, in the light of all the circumstances, not only have they been deprived of pay during the period of service, but their conditions of service have been changed without consultation with them, and have been forced on to them. Equally, they have lost during their period of service the opportunities of promotion; very often, too, opportunities for foreign service, because of their short engagement. In the light of those circumstances, surely the Government ought to look at a bounty for what it is; that is, if not individual personal hardship on the basis of what requires compassionate treatment, certainly hardship and a break in the contract which they made when they—
VISCOUNT GOSCHEN: May I interrupt? I believe that the noble Lord, Lord Lindgren, is inaccurate in one of his points, because I think there are a great many cases where National Service men have been made non-commissioned officers.
LORD LINDGREN: Of course. But, as I said, only in exceptional circumstances—perhaps when there was a shortage of N.C.Os—have they been promoted. In normal circumstances promotion has not been theirs, and that has
916
been one of the hardships of the short-term individual.
VISCOUNT GOSCHEN: I do not believe that it is only in exceptional circumstances. I believe that there are very many National Service men who are promoted to non-commissioned officers; and in a great many other cases they could have been promoted if they liked but refused to take the stripes.
LORD SHEPHERD: I have listened to the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, and do not think he really appreciates the distinction that when a Regular soldier goes into the Services he knows what he is going in for; but in the case of these National Service men who are being retained they are being retained after the service of their contract, which was placed upon them by Parliament and which they have honoured. As ordinary persons, they should be treated with some justice. Obviously the Government are not prepared to concede a gesture of justice to these people, and therefore I ask my noble friends to support me in the Division Lobby.
4.30 p.m.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLS-BOROUGH: Before we do that—we shall go in all right—I should like to correct the impression which may have formed in your Lordships' minds by what the First Lord of the Admiralty said about 1950. I think he overlooked one or two points. I had just given up the Minister of Defence position in the February, but already we were facing up to very difficult circumstances, which ultimately merged into a first-class conflict in Korea. We had already passed the Act of 1947 and it was not possible, in the light of an actual war breaking out, to get the fully trained people available for that campaign and to meet all our other commitments without doing what we did. So I do not think what the noble Lord, the First Lord of the Admiralty said, took sufficient notice of the fact that there was a war on, and therefore I do not accept that point of view.
The whole position of remuneration in industry and all the way through—the general level of payments—has altered very much since 1950, worsened from the point of view of the taxpayer,

917
by the general policy of the Government. That has meant, too, that as a result of the 1957 White Paper the enlistment of Regulars has come to be in open and growing competition with rising wages in the labour market. The general situation, therefore, reacts upon those who are in National Service and who are now told, quite unexpectedly, they must serve for another six months. For these reasons I fully support what my noble friend Lord Shepherd says, and unless there is a better answer I think we should support my noble friend in the Division Lobby.
LORD CARRINGTON: I hesitate to quarrel with the noble Viscount the Leader of the Opposition, but in point of fact in 1950 men who had finished their National Service were retained. Admittedly there was a war. Now there is an emergency, over Berlin, which is the reason why we are bringing in this Bill; that is the whole object of this Bill. It is no good the noble Viscount shaking his head. This has been explained all through the passage of the Bill in another place and also on Second
Reading in this House. If there was a war then, there is an emergency now; and the noble Viscount in 1950 treated the National Service men in exactly the same way as we are treating them now.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLS-BOROUGH: There is no comparison between the emergencies. What is the reason for the call-up now? It is because the policies of the Government of 1957 and 1959 have failed to raise the number of men required for the minimum commitments, including that of Berlin. The fact is that you have not been able to get even the reduced number of 51,000 men available in Germany without this call-up. You cannot see the men coming in in time. This is due to the complete failure of the Government's policy, with the result that retention is taking place. To compare that situation with the circumstances of 1950 is quite nonsensical.
On Question, Whether the said Amendment shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 32; Not-Contents, 57.

CONTENTS

Addison, V.

Killearn, L.

Shackleton, L.

Alexander of Hillsborough, V.

Latham, L.

Shepherd, L.

Amulree, L.

Lawson, L.

Silkin, L.

Baldwin of Bewdley, E.

Lindgren, L.

Stonham, L.

Burden, L. [Teller.]

Listowel, E.

Summerskill, B.

Chorley, L.

Lucan, E. [Teller.]

Walston, L.

Citrine, L.

Meston, L.

Williams, L.

Cork and Orrery, E.

Middleton, L.

Williams of Barnburgh, L.

Douglas of Barloch, L.

Morrison of Lambeth, L.

Wilmot of Selmeston, L.

Hughes, L.

Ogmore, L.

Wise, L.

Kenswood, L.

Rea, L.

NOT-CONTENTS

Ailwyn, L.

Freyberg, L.

Milverton, L.

Allerton, L.

Goschen, V.

Molson, L.

Ampthill, L.

Haddington, E.

Mowbray and Stourton, L.

Atholl, D.

Hastings. L. [Teller.]

Newall, L.

Brabazon of Tara, L.

Hawke, L.

Newton, L. [Teller.]

Buckinghamshire, E.

Hereford, V.

Northesk, E.

Carrington, L.

Horsbrugh, B.

Radnor, E.

Chesham, L.

Howard of Glossop, L.

Raglan, L.

Cholmondeley, M.

Jellicoe, E.

Rathcavan, L.

Cottesloe, L.

Jessel, L.

St. Oswald, L.

Craigton, L.

Kilmuir, V. (L. Chancellor.)

Sinclair, L.

Davidson, V.

Lansdowne, M.

Strathcarron, L.

Denham, L.

Long, V.

Stratheden and Campbell, L.

Derwent, L.

Lothian, M.

Swinton, E.

Devonshire, D.

MacAndrew, L.

Teviot, L.

Elliot of Harwood, B.

McCorquodale of Newton, L.

Teynham, L.

Exeter, M.

Massereene and Ferrard, V.

Thurlow, L.

Forster of Harraby, L.

Merrivale, L.

Waldegrave, E.

Fortescue, E.

Mersey, V.

Wolverton, L.

Resolved in the negative, and Amendment disagreed to accordingly.

4.44 p.m.
On Question, Whether Clause 1 shall stand part of the Bill?
Resolved in the affirmative, and Motion agreed to accordingly.
Clause 2:
Recall of national servicemen into army service
2.—
(3) Subsection (1) of this section shall not apply to any person—
4.53 p.m.
LORD SHACKLETON LORD SHACKLETON moved to add to subsection (3):
"or
(d) if he is undergoing or has been accepted for:—

(i) a full time educational course at University, College or comparable institution in the United Kingdom;

(ii) a full time apprenticeship or articled clerkship or full time instruction in a skilled trade or calling;

(iii) a course of training comparable to any of the foregoing to fit him to join a profession or undertake a skilled occupation."

The noble Lord said: We have now come to what is undoubtedly the most objectional part of the Bill, Clause 2. Whereas I will certainly not again deploy
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 56; Not-Contents, 26.

CONTENTS

Ailwyn, L.

Haddington, E.

Molson, L.

Albemarle, E.

Hastings, L. [Teller.]

Mowbray and Stourton, L.

Allerton, L.

Hawke, L.

Newall, L.

Ampthill, L.

Hereford, V.

Newton, L. [Teller.]

Atholl, D.

Horsbrugh, B.

Northesk, E.

Buckinghamshire, E.

Howard of Glossop, L.

Radnor, E.

Carrington, L.

Jellicoe, E.

Raglan, L.

Chesham, L.

Jessel, L.

Rathcavan, L.

Cottesloe, L.

Kilmuir, V. (L. Chancellor)

St. Oswald, L.

Craigton, L.

Lambert, V.

Sinclair, L.

Davidson, V.

Lansdowne, M.

Strathcarron, L.

Denham, L.

Long, V.

Stratheden and Campbell, L.

Derwent, L.

Lothian, M.

Swinton, E.

Devonshire, D.

MacAndrew, L.

Teviot, L.

Elliot of Harwood, B.

McCorquodale of Newton, L.

Teynham, L.

Forster of Harraby, L.

Massereene and Ferrard, V.

Thurlow, L.

Fortescue, E.

Merrivale, L.

Waldegrave, E.

Freyberg, L.

Mersey, V.

Wolverton, L.

Goschen, V.

Milverton, L.

NOT-CONTENTS

Addison, V.

Lawson, L.

Silkin, L.

Airedale, L.

Lindgren, L.

Stonham, L.

Alexander of Hillsborough, V.

Listowel, E.

Summerskill, B.

Amulree, L.

Lucan, E. [Teller.]

Walston, L.

Burden, L. [Teller.]

Meston, L.

Williams, L.

Citrine, L.

Ogmore, L.

Williams of Barnburgh, L.

Hughes, L.

Rea, L.

Wilmot of Selmeston, L.

Kenswood, L.

Shackleton, L.

Wise, L.

Latham, L.

Shepherd, L.

the arguments that have been advanced against it, I emphasise that this is because we think that the Amendments we have put down to Clause 2 are even more important than those we put down to Clause 1. I am sure your Lordships will agree that, whatever one may feel about extending somebody's period of National Service while they are in the Services, it is much more disturbing to call them back at an undefined date when they think they have said "Goodbye" to the Army. Admittedly, they have only said "Goodbye" to permanent, continuous service, because they have a reserve liability; but this is not comparable to a reserve liability. We are not confronted by the sort of situation which existed in 1950, and the thoroughly misleading—and I would even go so far as to say dishonest—analogy of 1950 does not apply to Clause 2, because there was no calling back of National Service men, although there was some calling out of the Reserves.
The Amendment which I am moving is concerned with laying down, at least for some people, the conditions under which they can expect exemption, and

921
the argument that has been advanced against these special exemptions on grounds of education or whatever it may be is that it is impossible in the Bill to lay down all the examples of cases where it may be desirable to give exemption either for retention or for call-up. This seems to me to be a completely invalid argument. We are urging that at least those who are continuing with their education, or who are in full-time apprenticeship or articled clerkship, should be guaranteed freedom from disturbance in the course of their studies and their work. This is a matter of real importance to those who enter into such a course; it may even be a matter which will affect their whole attitude as to whether they will continue in it.
On the figures that we have, it seems to me extremely probable that these men, or some of them, are going to have to be called up. I think the Government are being optimistic in saying that the clause applies to only a fraction—although a fraction is a broad enough term. Under Clause 3, they are reckoning to get 15,000 "Ever-readies". Yet this year we are going to retain 15,000 men. It would seem to me that in the following years, if the Government proceed with this scheme, we are certainly going to need to call back a proportion of those who have already completed their National Service. It seems to us to be highly desirable that, while preserving the machinery of appeal on grounds of hardship, we should specify by Statute those who are to be exempted; we feel that this is in the public interest.
I should like at this point to go back to the question of the appeal procedure. We discussed at some length, on Clause 1, whether the appeal procedure was satisfactory, and I think that the Government broadly satisfied the House on that aspect. The noble Lord, Lord St. Oswald, gave us a full account of the procedure to be followed, and the fact remains that most serving soldiers have a commanding officer who will be interested in them. But there is the exception—the man who, for some reason, just floats around and his commanding officer has no connection with him.
But the people affected here will not have the protection of being in the Service; there will not be the established
922
machinery; there will not be a commanding officer to whom they can go and explain their circumstances. An individual may be about to sit an important examination; it may be his finals at university; it may be a matter on which he needs to concentrate. Then, like a bombshell, comes the call-up notice—and the notice may not be as long as two months. Indeed, as the noble Earl said on Second Reading, it may be necessary to call him up at short notice. This seems to me to be a case for laying down in advance, so far as possible, certain categories to whom exemption should be granted. I fully accept that there must be others whose cases will have to be considered on the grounds of hardship and the usual special circumstances, but here is a relatively simple category; those engaged in a full-time educational course at university, a full-time apprenticeship, or a course of training.
The actual wording of the Amendment may not be satisfactory: it may be too broad; it may be necessary to specify more exactly what particular types of qualifying education are to be exempted. Certainly, so far as the universities are concerned, we have excluded those who are not doing a full-time educational course. On the other hand, there may be others undertaking an apprenticeship, or perhaps part of a sandwich course, and it may not be possible to give the same exemption, although our Amendment urges this. I should like to know whether, in fact, it is the Government's intention that exemption shall be given in such cases. This is something which I think the Government should tell us clearly now, not after the Bill is on the Statute Book. If they can give us some assurance on this matter, it may not be necessary to press the Amendment.
LORD ST. OSWALD: Would the noble Lord just give me again the precise case to which he is referring?
LORD SHACKLETON: I am referring to the case of a young man who is possibly in his third year at a university. We will suppose that in February he gets a fortnight's notice, or it may be even two months' notice, of liability to call-up, when he is due to take his Finals in May or June, depending on the university at which he is studying. Clearly,

923
it would be disastrous to him if his academic career were interrupted in this way. If that is conceded, then I think the case for part of the Amendment is conceded. Certainly the position should be made clear.
I have given the extreme example, but, of course, there will be others; and in such circumstances the loss of six months may be equivalent to the loss of a year, because it will interrupt the academic year. Indeed, it may spread between one academic year and another, although it depends on the university and on the length of the long summer vacation. I am quite sure that these people—certainly those at a university; and, I should have thought, most of those who are engaged in training—ought to be exempted, provided that we can find the right terms. I do not press the drafting of my Amendment, but I hope that, since the Government accept the principle, they may be prepared to help us or to put forward an Amendment at the Report stage. I am quite sure that the principle is one that ought firmly to be accepted now. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 36, at end insert the said paragraph.—(Lord Shackleton.)
LORD STRATHEDEN AND CAMPBELL: I think your Lordships will agree that there are very strong grounds for exempting some of these types of people, but I am not at all sure that this is the right way of doing it. There is a right of appeal, and if we once start putting in one or two isolated, special reasons for appeal—which is what it comes to—we may be weakening the whole basis of all appeals. That is why I am not happy about this type of provision. I feel that the Amendment itself is drawn much too widely. The third category of people who would be eligible under the Amendment includes far too wide a list of people to be acceptable. As I said, there is something to be said for this view, but I do not think this is the right way to do it.
5.4 p.m.
LORD ST. OSWALD: This Amendment, like two others we have considered earlier this afternoon, seeks to write into the Bill and give statutory authority to certain provisions which, in
924
so far as it would be right and proper to allow them, can quite adequately be dealt with by the administrative machinery already set up by the Secretary of State. Indeed, as I shall attempt to persuade the noble Lord, we think they can be more effectively dealt with in this manner.
I recognise that in certain circumstances there will be men of the kind described in the Amendment and by the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton—men who, once they have completed their period of full-time National Service, ought to be exempted from the provisions of Clause 2. Such exemption, I fully agree, will accord with the interests of the man himself, and with the broader national interests. There is absolutely no dispute between us about that. But, as I have said, the appeals machinery which the Secretary of State has set up will be able to deal with them. There need be no fear that, where a proper case is made out, the man will not be exempted.
Noble Lords may well ask why, if this is the Government's intention, as I have stated it, we do not accept the Amendment. The operative phrase used by the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, in his speech was: "where it is possible to define a category". The difficulty—and it is a very real one—is mainly one of definition. It is easy enough to talk about a college, a trade or a profession; and noble Lords have a good idea of what is meant if we use those phrases in private conversation or across the Floor of the House. But for statutory purposes this is not good enough. I wonder whether the noble Lord, who has argued with his usual eloquence in favour of this Amendment, would care to define precisely what these words mean; so precisely, that is, that every man who might regard himself as being covered by this description would know for certain whether or not he was covered. I do not believe that it is possible to do this without giving such a broad interpretation that the whole purpose of Clause 2 would be frustrated.
Certainly, in the past no statutory definition of hardship categories qualifying for exemption from military service has ever been attempted by any Government or by any Secretary of State. There has been no such definition in connection with deferment of call-up for

925
National Service, and this is precisely analogous to the situation which the Amendment is designed to cover. Nor is there any statutory exemption from liability to recall of men covered by the Army Reserve and Auxiliary Acts. For example, a narrow field of exemptions would, if it were rigidly applied, tend to be quite unfair. There would be cases falling within the stated category where the hardship suffered by recall might be much less than that of others coming outside the definition. This could lead only to great pressure to widen the field, so that it would be impossible to draw a line which would bear equally on all. There is a point at which the Government's hands, any Government's hands, might be hopelessly tied, and it is not possible to estimate, in terms of numbers, the effect of exempting particular categories.
In the Second Reading debate, I gave a fairly wide, a fairly loose, assurance to my noble friend Lord Goschen, and I can now give a rather more precise assurance to the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, both as to the question he asked me on the previous clause and as to this. In both cases, a National Service man accepted for whole-time study in a university or similar school of higher education will, on appeal, be granted an exemption from service in sufficient time for him to start the term. It goes without saying that, if he has already taken up that course of study, he will be given at least equal consideration, and I am myself assured—having asked this question—that, under the terms of the machinery set up, he would, in any but the most exceptional cases, be granted an exemption.
LORD SHACKLETON: I am sorry, but I do not quite know what that means. The noble Lord mentioned starting the term. Does he mean that the man would be exempt until he had completed, say, his degree course?
LORD ST. OSWALD: What I am saying, and I think this is as precise as I can be, is that he would be given treatment which would enable him to enjoy to the fullest effect the course of education that he was undergoing, or had entered into.
LORD SHACKLETON: He would be exempt?
LORD ST. OSWALD: He would be exempted for the course, or he would receive every sort of priority for exemption, to enable him either to join or to complete the educational course in which he was about to engage or had engaged.
As I have said, the Government, when dealing administratively with the cases that come up, will take full account of the points made by the noble Lords who have urged this Amendment. But I believe that if the system of necessary exemption is to work fairly—indeed, if it is to work at all—it must be left to the administrative machine. This, I am sure, is the only practicable way of meeting the underlying purpose of the proposed Amendment—and with this purpose the Government, as I have said before, are in no dispute at all.
I would add only that under Clause 2, I can give the same assurance—that appeals will be given every facility and consideration—as I gave in reply to the two Amendments proposed to Clause 1, with which we have just dealt; and the Secretary of State has already said that he is making arrangements for the grant of up to 56 days' postponement to men who find themselves in real difficulty, so as to give time for proper investigations to be made. I am convinced that the system which the Government have in mind will work perfectly fairly and will safeguard the sort of cases which the noble Lords have in mind, just as I am sure that any statutory definition of exempt categories, such as the Amendment contains, would be unworkable in practice. I hope that, with those words and with those assurances, I have persuaded the noble Lord, and that he will withdraw his Amendment.
LORD SHEPHERD: I am most grateful to the noble Lord for his explanation. May I ask him just two questions? If a man has undertaken to be, say, a doctor, with a five-year or six-year period in front of him, does it mean that, under this clause, he will be exempt for the whole period of his university and post-university training? Or, did the noble Lord mean, when he used the word "course", that the man will be exempt up to the time he has completed a certain stage in his university training, but will then have to do his National Service, this recall for six months, and will

927
then be able to go back to his university? Is that what the noble Lord means? Or does he mean that there is complete exemption for the person for the whole period of his university training, or whatever training he may have undertaken?
May I now put my second question? The noble Lord will appreciate that a very large number of persons are involved under this clause—possibly 100,000, or 120,000. I have no idea at the present moment what the exact number is, but it is certainly a very large number; and at the present moment it is possible for these persons to be called up over a period of two and a half years. May I ask the noble Lord this question? Is it possible to give an indication to these people when they are likely to be called up? This, I think, would be very useful to the persons concerned. May I also ask the noble Lord: what are the channels through which these men will be informed, and through which channels can a man make his appeal, particularly having regard to this educational point? Through what sources does he make it? Under Clause 1 we know the way: a man does it through his commanding officer. Do these men apply through the commanding officer of their Territorial unit? I do not know. But certainly I think a person is entitled to know whether he is likely to be called up, to set his mind at rest on the matter and to enable him to put his house in order. And he should certainly know, probably more so than the soldier under Clause 1, the proper channels through which to make his appeal.
LORD ST. OSWALD: On the first of the supplementary questions put to me by the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, I can assure him, as I tried to assure the noble Lord. Lord Shackleton, that there is absolutely no question of taking a man from a university for this form of reserve.
LORD SHEPHERD: Is it possible to indicate to these men when they are likely to be called up?
LORD ST. OSWALD: As to that, I fear it is not in any way possible, because it is not possible to inform them whether or not they are likely to be called up. The whole point is that this
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Bill is intended to meet an emergency and any lack of manpower there may be with which to confront that emergency, which we think and hope may never occur. As for when it may occur, that question is even more impossible of answer. As for the channels through which the man will be informed of his call-up, and through which he may appeal, I think it will be his regimental depot; but the case will be passed to the War Office through whatever is the appropriate channel. I should like to write to the noble Lord and inform him precisely and authoritatively on that point, and I ask his forgiveness for not being able to answer him at the moment.
LORD SHEPHERD: I thank the noble Lord for his reply. Personally, I do not anticipate being involved in a recall, and therefore I am not particularly interested for myself. But I think the noble Lord should take the opportunity, either on Report Stage or on Third Reading, to come to this House and give us that information. That will make it public. I would ask him to give an undertaking that he will come to the House on Report Stage and tell us what is to be done.
LORD ST. OSWALD: I quite appreciate the noble Lord's selflessness in this matter, and I will certainly see that what he requests is done, either on Report Stage or on Third Reading.
5.17 p.m.
LORD WALSTON: May I make one very small point on this matter? The noble Lord said just now (I think I wrote down his words correctly) that there was absolutely no intention of taking a man away from a university. That seems to me to go a very long way towards meeting the point which my noble friend has been trying to make in his Amendment. In fact, there is some definition there, and it was one of the main criticisms of this Amendment that the definition was inaccurately and too widely drawn. So it appears possible to give at least one definition—namely, that of a university.
I gladly accept the noble Lord's assurance that there is absolutely no intention of taking a man away from a university. But, from the point of view of the student himself, while it is nice to have that said here and read by a certain

929
number of people, the fact remains that the call-up papers, or whatever it is, will still go out to the student. He may be—and many students are, shortly before their final examinations—in a rather worked-up mental state; and even though he is told by his tutor, his director of studies, or whatever it may be, that there is no intention of interrupting his studies, it will still be a disturbing factor in this very crucial period of the young man's life. How much better it would be if, When it is absolutely certain he will not be called up, those papers were never sent to him! In other words, cannot this Amendment, at any rate in principle, be accepted, so that mental distress at this rather difficult time can be avoided? There would be no difference whatever in the final result of the call-up, except that there would be the saving of an appeal and the saving of a certain amount of administrative effort after the call-up papers have gone. And, as I say, there would also be the saving of distress to the student at a rather vulnerable and important time of his life.
LORD ST. OSWALD: What I have done is to give an example; what I have not done is to define a university; and although, as I quite agree with the noble Lord, he and I think we know what we are talking about when we discuss a university across the Floor, that is not good enough for the law. It is not good enough to lay down a statutory definition. I am assured of that. The noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, said that his actual wording might not be satisfactory, and that he was prepared to see it changed, but the fact is that we have looked into this and it has not been possible to find any wording that is satisfactory. Of That, I must give him absolute assurance. Had we been able to find a satisfactory wording, my reply from this Dispatch Box to-day might have been very different.
As to how a young man can be saved from anxiety when, for instance, he is taking exams, answering "off the cuff" I would say it might be possible for the university authorities themselves, when they see from his entry papers that he is on this Reserve and liable for call-up, to give him the assurance that, within the meaning of the Act, the university was of sufficient standing to earn him exemption. But that is very much "off the cuff". I feel certain that
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in most cases the young man himself, and particularly the authorities, will know whether or not his place of education counts or does not count, and they will be able to tell him.
LORD SHEPHERD: I am sorry again to delay the House, but we have been talking so much this afternoon that one now starts thinking of other points as the debate goes along. May I ask the noble Lord this? Would he, in between now and the Report stage, again consider whether the type of exemption which will be granted can be put, either in the Bill or clearly in front of the persons who are liable to call? The noble Lord has made our minds perfectly clear on the university point, and I am pleased to hear what he said; but there is certainly a wider type of education which may be just as important. For instance, there is the youngster who has joined a firm of chartered accountants to become an articled clerk. He may know that he is exempt. But what makes me rather nervous at the moment is that you may find a firm of chartered accountants saying, "This man is liable for recall under Section 2 of the Act; therefore, frankly, we do not think it is worth our while taking him on now as an articled clerk, so let us wait till his period of liability has expired."
I think—and I am sure the Government and the whole House are with me on this—that these persons who have already done their service and are going to be recalled are entitled to some consideration. Therefore, the Government should say quite clearly, either at Report stage or at Third Reading, which will be their last opportunity, what persons will be exempt by the provisions of this clause. I think they should do that not only for the good will they will earn, but for the prevention of what may be a great deal of bitterness if they do not.
LORD ST. OSWALD: I will certainly look into what the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, has requested, and if there is any possibility of giving him satisfaction on it I will do so. I do not hold out a great deal of hope, because, as I explained, a good deal of thought has been given to the possibility of defining places of education which would earn exemption and those which might not, and no satisfactory definition has been found. If some satisfactory definition

931
can be found between now and Third Reading I will certainly see to it that the matter is clarified; but, as I say, in the circumstances I cannot hold out a great deal of hope.
LORD SHACKLETON: The noble Lord is trying terribly hard, and we are grateful to him. But really, it is absolute nonsense to say that it is not possible to arrive at definitions in a Statute. This is precisely what legislation is so troublesome about; we do occasionally have to make up our minds what we are talking about. I just do not accept that it is not possible to define a university or a place of education which would be suitable under the Act. He says that it has never been done in the past. But we have never called back people in these circumstances in the past. This is a completely new departure in National Service legislation. It is for this reason that we ought not just to sit back comfortably on the excuse that we did not do it previously with ordinary National Service, when there was an overall liability for people to do their National Service at some stage or other. Of course, they might get deferment, but there was never any question of their avoiding it entirely, and it was a matter of choice as to when they were called up.
This is a completely different set or circumstances. This is a sudden interruption in somebody's life, and possibly at a very crucial stage. I would hope that these people would not be called up at all. I would hope that it would not be a question of notice coming to them and their having to appeal, though here again we should like to know more clearly what is the appeal machinery. We are grateful to the noble Lord, Lord St. Oswald, for trying to give us the answer, but I am staggered that, at this stage of the Bill, its having gone right through another place, we should now be told by the Government spokesman that he will write to a noble Lord. Surely the Government now know what the drill is. If we caught the noble Lord on the hop, I apologise, because I know how hard he works at covering the vast number of subjects which fall within his purview; but I should have thought that this procedure ought to be completely clear. I should have thought that the
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case had now been made for something to go into the Statute.
The case is simply that I think the Government have not yet really thought this out, and have given up the attempt, saying that it is too difficult to define. We have to know what institutions rank for grant for a student to go to university. The local authorities, acting under Statute or under Order, are able to make up their minds. Obviously, there will be certain points on the margin which will be anomalous, and when discretion must exist. We do not want a long schedule of every type of institution attached to the Bill, but we should have liked a broad indication of the kind we have put into this Amendment.
I should like to suggest that the Government really have to try either to amend the Bill, or to produce, before we are finished with the Bill, a list, or some indication in much clearer terms than we have had, of the type of institution and the type of education which will be exempted. It is not just a question of the wretched chap going to university and being told, "You will be all right, Jack, on the day, although we are not certain." They want a clear statement with regard to that. I am sure the Government are sympathetic to the view we are putting forward on this matter. I do not know whether my noble friends wish to divide on this, but in order to hasten the Business, and in order to encourage the Government to be more helpful in relation to our appeals on this matter at a later stage, I ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
5.28 p.m.
LORD SHEPHERD LORD SHEPHERD moved to add to the clause:
"( ) This section shall expire at the end of twelve months from the date of its coming into force unless continued in the manner laid down in section one of the Army and Air Force Act, 1961, for the continuance of the Army Act, 1955, and the Air Force Act, 1955."
The noble Lord said: This is the last Amendment to Clause 2. It seeks to make it necessary by Statute for the Secretary of State to obtain the approval of Parliament for the continuation of this clause. As I have said earlier, approximately 100,000 men are involved. The Government have said that the number of persons who may be recalled

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will depend upon the response to Clause 3—that is, the "Ever-readies". I suspect (to use a phrase of the noble Marquess, Lord Salisbury) that the Government are being "a bit too clever by half". I strongly suspect, when I look at the recruiting figures and the strengths of the Regular Army, particularly the strength for 1963, that the Government will have no option but to find 15,000 to 20,000 men from these new Reserves they are creating—that is, the National Service Reserve, under Clauses 2 and 3. If they are to find 20,000 to 25,000 men to bring up their Army strength to 185,000, which I believe is about the figure the Army have planned for all along, obviously they will have to find them by calling up the Clause 3 "Ever-readies", which we understand will be limited to 20,000 or 30,000. (We do not know this, because the Government have not yet said what the figure will be.)
I believe that it is quite wrong to give the Minister carte blanche under Clause 2 to call up these men, who, we have repeatedly said, have done their service, without any report to, or any approval of, Parliament. Therefore we suggest in our Amendment that the Government should come to Parliament and obtain approval. There will be a large number of men involved in the call-up, and I think it is right that Parliament should have some say in the operation of this clause. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 36, at end insert the said subsection.—(Lord Shepherd.)
5.31 p.m.
LORD CARRINGTON: I hesitate to make a speech on this occasion, because I noticed that on the last occasion when we had a Division and nobody had made a speech, there were ten more votes for the Government than on the previous occasion, when I had made a speech. Perhaps it would be just as well if I sat down and said nothing. But the noble Lord has made a persuasive speech on this Amendment, and perhaps I owe him a few words.
The Bill, alas!, does not legislate for a situation to which we can see any end at present, apart from the run-out of National Service men and the termination of their part-time liability, which in any case will bring the powers under
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Clause 2 of the Bill, which we are discussing, to a close in 1966 or thereabouts. As I said in the debate on the Bill itself a fortnight ago, it is—at any rate so far as Clauses 2 and 3 are concerned—an insurance against sudden bouts of international tension; and in the uncertain world in which we live these can seldom be foreseen very far in advance. I do not think that any of us could confidently predict such a general détente throughout the world as would make this insurance unnecessary in the next three or four years—and certainly not within twelve months from now.
I quite understand the anxiety of noble Lords opposite to keep a proper control over the Secretary of State's power to raise and maintain the Army—it is right and proper that they should be anxious—particularly this power which affects so much the liberty of the subject. But I really cannot see that Parliament will be in any better position to judge the need for these powers at the beginning of 1963 than it can at the present moment. And, of course, the whole abject of the clause is to enable the Government to call up, with the least possible delay and without recourse to a Proclamation, those extra troops which, if they are to have a proper deterrent effect, must be immediately available. If, therefore, the clause is to serve any useful purpose, we must know in advance that we can call on these reservists if tension were to rise.
In addition, I do not think it right to take up Parliamentary time, which is crowded enough already, with this sort of annual legislation, unless it is really necessary. And in this case surely there are other checks on the power of the Secretary of State which are equally effective. Parliament has the opportunity annually to vote or withhold money for the Army—and indeed for these reservists, of whom we are speaking. At any time when Parliament is sitting, there will be an opportunity to debate any emergency requiring the exercise of these powers; and if the emergency arises in a Recess and Parliament wishes to come back, that also can be arranged in the usual way.
In so far as there is anxiety about the way in which the Secretary of State may carry out the pledges which he has given to the individuals who may be

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affected by Clause 2, there is a perfectly good way of bringing him to book at any time by means of questions in Parliament, not only questions in the House of Commons, but also Unstarred Questions in your Lordships' House, and a debate can be arranged at very short notice. I would remind your Lordships that at the beginning of 1963, when the first annual review provided in the Amendment would take place, this clause will hardly have had time to take effect. As I have already said, it is most unlikely that any men will be recalled while the retained National Service men are with us. In any case, subsection (3) of Clause 4 requires the Secretary of State to keep Parliament informed about the exercise of the powers in both Clauses 2 and 3.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLS-BOROUGH: Do I understand from these two or three sentences that the First Lord of the Admiralty considers that he is going to get enough volunteers to join the Regular Forces in the next twelve months to meet the point he makes?
LORD CARRINGTON: I think the noble Viscount has misunderstood me. What I was saying was that, until the retained National Service men go, there will be no cause to call up the National Service men reservists under Clause 2, and I hope very much that there will never be any need to call up the reservists under Clause 2 because the "Ever-readies" will be recruited in such sufficient numbers that it will be unnecessary to do so. But I was not talking about Regular recruiting, and I think that is where the noble Viscount misunderstood me.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLS-BOROUGH: May I put this in?—perhaps it is a little irrelevant but it is rather important. The First Lord of the Admiralty told us on the television last night that we have a wonderful prospect of recruiting to the Royal Navy. Cannot he meet our commitments by having more men in the Royal Navy and the Royal Marines and the movable Forces?
LORD CARRINGTON: I am very gratified that the noble Viscount the Leader of the Opposition was watching
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me on television last night, and I am tempted to give him a long disquisition on the importance of the Royal Navy, how good recruiting is and how excellent the Royal Marines are; but though there are no Rules in your Lordships' House, I think that I might be trespassing on your Lordships' patience a little too far. In any event, the time will come in the Defence debate, when perhaps I shall have an opportunity of doing so.
I suggest, therefore, that this clause does not give unlimited power to the Secretary of State for an indefinite period. The period is self-limiting and it will not last for more than four years. And the checks, as I have said, are there in any case. The National Service Act does not have to be brought up for review every year; neither does the Secretary of State's power to call men up under the Army Reserve Act. There is nothing essentially new in this Bill which would make it necessary that this particular piece of legislation should be dealt with any differently. So, I am afraid that I cannot accept this Amendment, but I would repeat what I said in the debate on the Bill itself and have just said to the noble Viscount the Leader of the Opposition: if the new Territorial Army Emergency Reserve is a success, and the international situation does not deteriorate still further in the meantime, we should not require to make use of the powers under Clause 2 at all; and I very much hope that this will be the case.
LORD SHACKLETON: Once again the noble Lord has made a good case for the Amendment. If he is hoping not to use this power, then surely we might put some sort of limit on it and ask him to come to Parliament whenever it is necessary and ask for it. If an emergency arises, I do not think that this would be a serious abuse of Parliamentary time. We used to have much more annual legislation, and I am inclined to agree with the noble Lord that some of it might well be dispensed with; but the Government refused to accept Amendments moved in another place that this should be done by Order. Now the noble Lord hopes not to have to use this power, but still he wants it. What we are saying is that this power should expire, and, if he needs it, he should come and renew it.
LORD CARRINGTON: I am afraid that the noble Lord has listened to only the last half of my speech and not the first half. I explained at considerable length why we needed these powers and only said at the end, if it was any consolation to noble Lords opposite, that I hoped we should not need to use them. We should all be pleased if that were so, not least the noble Lords opposite.
LORD SHEPHERD: I am still unimpressed. Like all the Services, the Army produces its annual report, a fairly large one, for Army Estimates. The Army and the Air Force Act is brought before Parliament every year. Surely it would not be asking too much that the Government should include in this Bill a provision, similar to the one we propose, and obtain Parliamentary approval. If the Government cannot concede this, there is little point in pressing it. I am disappointed at the noble Lord's general attitude that Clause 2 is not likely to be required, and that it is hoped that under Clause 3 we shall not have to use the persons—
LORD CARRINGTON: I did not say that Clause 2 is not likely to be required. I said that I hoped it would not be.
LORD SHEPHERD: I accept that; I am in error. I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 2 agreed to.
Clause 3 [Territorial Army Emergency Reserve]:
On Question: whether Clause 3 shall stand part of the Bill?
5.41 p.m.
LORD SHACKLETON: I wonder whether the Government can give us a little more explanation as to the number of men who are going to be involved under Clause 3. On Second Reading the First Lord said that the Government were thinking in terms of 15,000 men or thereabouts. These 15,000 men are going to have to cover a pretty wide gap and, anxious though the Government may be to achieve miracles, they so demonstrably have failed to do so in terms of recruiting in other directions, that this particular gap (I do not want to go into the numbers again) is likely to be perhaps of the order of 15,000 at any one time. If that is 15,000 they are calling up this year,
938
and they want another 15,000 next year, is that the number they have in mind? If so, how many "Ever-readies" do they need in order to achieve 15,000 men at any time in the Services over the next three years? There must be some estimate on this matter.
This clause is introduced against the background, as my noble friend Lord Shepherd made clear, of a decline in numbers. I should have thought that, if anything, more would be needed. But perhaps the Government hope that Regular recruiting will have improved. However, if their hopes—I put it no higher than that now though I think that at times there has been a certain rosy optimism—that they will not have to call on the Class Z National Service men are realised, they will need a great many "Ever-readies." We should like to know how many "Ever-readies" they reckon they will get; and how many, say, next year, after they have exhausted this year's retained National Servicemen, they hope to have serving in the course of the year and at any one time.
LORD CARRINGTON: I do not know that I can satisfy the noble Lord very much on that point, because it is anybody's guess how many people will join the Territorial Army Emergency Reserve. The idea is that we should recruit about 15,000 of them. This does not mean that we expect there will always be a shortage of 15,000 in the Regular Army. I hope that will not be so; indeed, on the way the recruiting figures are going I do not see any reason why it should be so. What these men will be is a very useful emergency reserve in case something goes wrong. I hope very much that National Servicemen who are doing their Reserve obligation will feel that this is a necessary and useful Reserve, and something they can join with the feeling that they are doing something to help their country. I am unable to forecast how many men would be prepared to join, but I hope that a good deal of publicity will be given to this scheme and that the noble Lord opposite will do what he can to encourage people to join this Reserve.
LORD SHEPHERD: There is one question I should like to ask, but before doing so, I must say that I am not at all happy about the noble Lord's statement regarding the recruiting campaign.

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As I indicated on my first Amendment, the Defence White Paper shows that the Government anticipate that they will have 166,000 Regulars by April 1, 1963; that the net increase of Regulars (and the net increase, of course, is the real figure) from 1961 to 1962 was 6,000, and that the anticipated net increase from 1962 to 1963 will be about 8,000. I understand that the Army is based on 185,000 men. My arithmetic, quickly done, shows that, on the 166,000 Regulars anticipated to be available on April 1, 1963, there will be a short-fall of 19,000 men. That, roughly, represents that the 185,000 Regulars will not be obtained until 1965–66. I should have thought, therefore, that it would be obvious to anybody that the Government will have to call up these men under Clause 3. And I strongly suspect that 15,000 will not be sufficient.
However, the question I want to put to the noble Lord is this. In subsection (2) of this clause the Minister is taking power to call up the "Ever-readies" for a period of six months within twelve months. Which twelve months is that? Is that a calendar twelve months, in the sense that a man can be called up for six months, and if he is going to be recalled he will be a civilian for six months? Or are we likely to face the case where the definition of a year is the calendar year, and that he may be called up from June to December, and then from January to June would become another year and he could he used during that period? I do not know whether the noble Lord can help us on that point.
LORD CARRINGTON: The noble Lord has a very suspicious mind. Of course that is not the intention. The intention is that he signs on for a year, and of that year he can serve six months. But he would not be called up again to do another six months in the same year. He volunteers for one year only and can be called up only for six months of that year. The noble Lord has issued another invitation to join with him in playing the numbers game, but I really do not think I want to do it this evening. We had a good go at this a fortnight ago, and we shall have another opportunity at the beginning of next month. I would just say this. Will
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the noble Lord go into the Printed Paper Office and look at the Memorandum just produced by the Secretary of State for War, a very well-produced document with a nice shiny red cover? There he will see how well the recruiting figures are going.
LORD SHEPHERD: I have that figure, and I also have the figures I have given; and the figures do not tally.
LORD SHACKLETON: I am sorry to continue with this discussion, but I honestly believe the Government are "dodging out" on this one. The figures do not add up. So far as I can see, the most they would hope for, spread throughout the year, would be to have 7,500 "Ever-readies". Assuming that they were confronted with the sort of situation that exists now, and they would not need all the 15,000, they are unlikely to be able to use more than 7,500 at any one time. It is to this that the Government attach their main hopes about not invoking the powers under Clause 2.
LORD CARRINGTON: Does the noble Lord realise that when we talk about retaining 15,000 National Service men that is 15,000 in two lots? So it is only 7,500 for six months at a time. I think he will find, in point of fact, that the figures do tally.
LORD SHACKLETON: If they tally in that respect, at least we shall catch up the present-day shortages, which is something. In that case, it means an absolute certainty—and this is the other point I want to make—that anybody who undertakes this "Ever-ready" liability, certainly for next year, accepts the certainty that he will do his six months' service.
LORD CARRINGTON: Not at all. The noble Lord is not right. Such a man would be called up only if there were an emergency of the sort we have been enduring for the last six months over Berlin, and if there were a shortage in the Regular Army—though I hope that Regular recruiting will cure that.
LORD SHACKLETON: I agree that we cannot go on pursuing this matter. But one comes back to the point that we are going to default on our obligations under N.A.T.O., and leave the

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British Army of the Rhine at a level far below that at which we are in honour bound to maintain it.
Clause 3 agreed to.
Clause 4 [Provisions supplemental to ss. 2 and 3]:
LORD SHEPHERD: We have asked for accountability on the various clauses that we have discussed. In subsection (3) of this clause the Secretary of State has obligated himself to report from time to time regarding Clauses 2 and 3. I wish to ask the noble Lord what is meant by "from time to time". I suggest that he reports at three-monthly intervals. I will not press it, but I should like to know what "from time to time" means. Does it mean annually, when the Army Estimates come out, or what? Can he help me? I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 4, line 15, leave out ("from time to time") and insert ("every three months").(Lord Shepherd.)
LORD ST. OSWALD: If this requires a direct translation, I am unable to help the noble Lord. If I tell him it means, "now and then", he is unlikely to be satisfied. Strictly speaking, what it will mean is "when required". I think that what the noble Lord is after in this Amendment is to make it consistent with Amendment No. 2 which he moved, which would have provided for three-monthly reports on the numbers of men retained, and I cannot advise the House to accept this Amendment either. There is no need for any statutory provision for a report to Parliament, as it is certain that such reports would have to be made, whether the Act said so or not. It is worth looking at the way this is provided for in the Army Reserve Act, 1950, where it says that in respect of the call-out of pre-proclamation reserves—that is, the Army Emergency Reserve and the Regular Reserve—report to Parliament may be made as soon as may be. This gives discretion to the Secretary of State as to when Parliament should be informed, and certainly implies no recall of Parliament.
I do not want to go through the reasons. Since the noble Lord has moved his Amendment very briefly, I do not think I ought to be any less brief. There are mainly three reasons for
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resisting the Amendment: first, it is unnecessary; secondly, a rigid requirement for reports at three-monthly intervals (I know the noble Lord does not accept this) would produce, we hope, a series of nil reports being given ad infinitum if the powers under Clause 3 were not invoked, and for a shorter time if the powers under Clause 2 were not invoked. There is no precedent for such quarterly returns in Army Reserve legislation. I have already referred to the method and phrase, "as soon as may be", written into the Army Reserve Act, 1950, which satisfied the then Labour Government, and I hope this may make it easier for the noble Lord to withdraw his Amendment.
LORD DERWENT: I suppose the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, realises that every three months Parliament might not be not be sitting, and in fact there might not be a Parliament at all.
LORD SHEPHERD: I thank the noble Lord for his intervention. This is the first time I have known there is a similarity in the meaning of "from time to time", and "when required",
LORD ST. OSWALD: I said it would in fact come to mean, "when required"
LORD SHEPHERD: I do not propose to press this Amendment. I hope this is the last time I shall be speaking on this Committee stage, and may I personally thank the two noble Lords for their kindness and courtesy. I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 4 agreed to.
5.55 p.m.
LORD CHORLEY: moved after Clause 4 to insert the following new clause
Conscientious objectors
".—(1) If any person retained in army service under section one of this Act is undergoing a sentence of imprisonment or detention for a term of three months or more imposed on him by a Court Martial, then if he claims that the offence for which he was sentenced was committed by reason of his conscientiously objecting to performing military service or to obeying any order in respect of which the offence was committed, he may apply in the manner prescribed under section seventeen of the National Service Act, 1948, to have his case considered by the Appellate Tribunal constituted under the Fourth Schedule to that Act, and subsections (2), (3) and (4) of section twenty-one of that Act shall apply.
(2) If any person who is recalled into army service under section two of this Act claims that he conscientiously objects to performing military service or to performing combatant duties he may apply in the manner prescribed in the last foregoing subsection to have his case considered by the Appellate Tribunal, and the same provisions shall apply."
The noble Lord said: With this Amendment I return to the problem which I have brought before your Lordships on a number of occasions in the past: the problem of the man who, having started on his military service, or possibly having concluded his service and gone into the Reserve, becomes a conscientious objector, whose views in relation to military service change. There have been quite a number of this type of case which have given rise to a good deal of difficulty. Indeed, some five or six years ago I introduced a Bill to deal with the matter, because cases which had occurred showed that the situation was a very unfair one. As your Lordships know, a man who is a conscientious objector when called up can take the point on registration and go before a local tribunal which will decide whether his conscientious objection is a genuine one. If it is, then he is excused military service.
That has been the law in this country ever since we started compulsory military service during the First World War, and I think we can pride ourselves that this is a very liberal attitude. Unfortunately, in relation to the equally sincere man who develops his conscientious objection afterwards, the law does nothing to protect him. He will disobey a military order if he is still serving, or disobey the order to return to the Colours if he is in Reserve. He is then, of course, guilty of an offence and is brought before a court martial and sent to prison. At that stage administrative arrangements have been made (rather by the military authorities, as I understand it, than by the politicians) to enable him to have his conscientious scruples tested by a tribunal. If that tribunal finds that he is genuine, he will then be released and not required to serve out the period of his detention as ordered by the Army tribunal.
This new Bill, obviously, will have the effect either of retaining men in this situation or of recalling men in this situation, and it has given rise to a good deal of anxiety among conscientious
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objectors and among those who feel that here is a civil liberty which is threatened by the present arrangements. It is for that reason that I have tabled this Amendment. As your Lordships see, the proposed new clause falls into two parts. The first part covers those who are retained in the Army for further service, and this part of the clause retains the court martial procedure to which I have referred. The second part of the clause deals with those who are being recalled for service. The man would be allowed to go to a tribunal on application on the ground that this is, in fact, an additional liability which is being imposed upon him, and is to some extent similar to that which was imposed by the 1950 Act. So it seems not unreasonable that a rather different procedure should be adopted in this type of case.
Naturally, we should prefer to have this right established in the Bill, and if the Government could see their way to accept it we should be very gratified. Judging from my past experience, I do not imagine that they would be ready to give way, having taken a very firm line in the past. In these circumstances I hope they will be able to give us an assurance that the administrative method which, while certainly not altogether fair to the men, is at any rate rather better than the original arrangements which existed before it was brought into force, will be continued and applied in this type of case. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 4 insert the said new clause.—(Lord Chorley.)
LORD CARRINGTON: I think I can do rather better than that. I think I can say to the noble Lord, Lord Chorley, that what I am proposing to him is better than what he himself proposes. Before I do so perhaps we ought to be quite clear what, in point of fact, are the existing statutory provisions for the National Service man. Under the National Service Act a man may apply to register as a conscientious objector before—and this "before" is important—he is called up for whole-time service If he does this, but not otherwise, and if his application is rejected, he is entitled, once he has been called up, to

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appear before an appellate tribunal if he is sentenced by a court martial to three months' or more imprisonment or detention for an offence against military law which he claims was committed on the grounds of conscience. But there is a further limitation here. He has a statutory right of appeal in this way only if his offence is committed in the United Kingdom.
The statutory rights of conscientious objectors under the National Service Act, 1948, are therefore fairly closely circumscribed: they apply only to men who register as conscientious objectors before call-up; and to such men who commit offences against military law in this country. These statutory rights are, however, supplemented by certain non-statutory provisions. In the first place, the right of appeal to the appellate tribunal following three months' detention or imprisonment has been extended administratively to men who did not register as conscientious objectors before they were called up; that is to say, to men who developed conscientious scruples after they joined the Army for whole-time National Service. And last year this non-statutory right of appeal was further extended to National Service men serving abroad. The same administrative arrangements are also applied to Regular soldiers (including, reservists called up) who develop conscientious objections during their term of service, wherever they may be serving. Now the Secretary of State has given an assurance that the existing administrative—that is to say, non-statutory—practice and arrangements for conscientious objectors will continue to hold good for all those who are involved in the Bill. This means that both retained and recalled men will be allowed access, under administrative arrangements, to the appellate tribunal set up under the National Service Act, 1948, if they commit an offence and are sentenced by court-martial to three months' or more imprisonment or detention and claim that the offence was committed on grounds of conscience.
My Lords, I think that this assurance meets the substance of the Amendment. Indeed it goes further if the noble Lord's intention is to give the same statutory protection as applies to National Service men; because, as I have said, the
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statutory rights conferred by the National Service Act, which he mentions in his Amendment, apply only to offences committed by men while in Great Britain and only to those who applied for registration before call-up. If the noble Lord wants to safeguard the position of men serving in B.A.O.R., which will be the majority of these men under this Bill, he would do far better to rely on the administrative arrangements which the Secretary of State has promised to apply to these men.
If, however, the noble Lord seeks to go further than the National Service Act or the administrative arrangements—for example, by providing recalled men with a statutory right of appeal to a tribunal without the necessity of having to commit an offence—then I am bound to reject his proposal. The administrative arrangements have worked well in practice. If recalled men had an un-restricted right to appeal to a tribunal there might well be a rush of conscientious objectors in the event of a call-up and the powers in Clause 2 might be frustrated. There is no provision for conscientious objectors anywhere else in any legislation dealing with Reserves or the Regular Army, and it is undesirable to make special provision in this Bill which concerns only a small part of the Reserve field. I think, however, that in what I have said earlier, in my answer to the noble Lord, I have met the point he has in mind, and I hope he will be satisfied and will withdraw his Amendment.
LORD CHORLEY: I am very grateful to the noble Lord. I was aware, of course, that the administrative arrangements had been extended to cover B.A.O.R., which was a very useful concession, although I must say that I think it is involved in the principle of the thing and that it was right and proper that it should be done. I am sorry that the noble Lord, towards the end of his speech, repeated the argument which was advanced on the last occasion; that large numbers of these conscientious objectors are just scrimshankers (I think that was the phrase used by his predecessor to me on the last occasion), because I think most of those who have had anything to do with this problem know quite well that the number of scrimshankers involved represents

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only a very small minority. However, I did not expect that the noble Lord would be prepared to agree to putting this matter into the Statute. The administrative arrangements certainly have worked, up to a point, although the number of these cases shows that what actually happens is that a man has to serve a sentence as a result of the court martial and that seems to us to be very unfair to him. However, in all the circumstances of the case I am glad to have the assurances which the noble Lord has given, and I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 5 agreed to.
Remaining clauses and Schedule agreed to.
LORD SHACKLETON LORD SHACKLETON moved to add to the Title of the Bill:
"to extend periods of service under the National Service Act, 1948, and to make further provision with respect to the Territorial Army Special Reserve."
The noble Lord said: This is not perhaps the weightiest of topics to end our, I hope, on the whole, congenial debate, and I give notice that I do not intend to divide the House and, therefore, those devoted Members of your Lordships' House who have been staying here to save the Government are free to leave at this moment. I should not have moved this Amendment except that I thought it would be interesting to know what the Government's reply to this would be. It is an attempt to make an honest woman of—I will not call it a dishonest Bill, but a Bill which has, I should have thought, a slightly misleading Long Title.
Are National Service men, I ask the noble Lord, reservists when they are doing their National Service? If that is so, then, quite clearly, the Bill is properly entitled; if they are not, then the Bill is not properly entitled because, of course, it is not just a question of calling up reserves but a question of extending the period of service of those who are already doing full-time service. I have searched the definitions and found in the definitions book that "reserve forces" were "reserve forces". Perhaps, however, the noble Lord's Department
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have done more research and can give us an answer on this. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
In the Title, after ("army") insert the said words.—(Lord Shackleton.)
LORD CARRINGTON: I am rather surprised to see the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, moving this Amendment. He was rather more restrained than the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, on the Second Reading, when the noble Lord had no compunction whatever in describing the Bill as dishonest.
LORD SHEPHERD: I said the Title was dishonest, not the Bill.
LORD CARRINGTON: I think the noble Lord said both the Title and the Bill. I am very glad if he does not think the Bill is dishonest. Whatever may be thought of the Bill and the Title—your Lordships were at any rate prepared to give it a Second Reading, and that is of course the main thing—the existing Long Title, which is:
"An Act to make further provision with respect to reserves for the Regular Army",
does appropriately cover the provisions of the Bill. Clause 3—that is, Territorial army emergency reserve—is certainly concerned with reserves for the Regular Army. Clause 2 provides additional permissive powers to recall part-time National Service men from the Army Emergency Reserve or the Territorial Army for whole-time Army service. These men already form part of the reserves for the Regular Army and are liable to be called out in time of war. It is therefore correct to say in respect of them that the Bill
"makes further provision in respect of reserves for the Regular Army".
The case for regarding men retained under Clause 1 as "reserves for the Regular Army" is perhaps not quite so obvious, because they do not actually join the Reserves as part-time National Service men before being retained in Army service. They do, however, cease to perform service under the National Service Acts at the end of their statutory two years' whole-time service. They would normally then pass to the Reserves to fulfil their part-time liability. Instead they are retained for whole-time service under the provisions of the Bill (not under the National Service Acts). Their

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3½ years part-time National Service Reserve liability is reduced by any period of retention. It is therefore not inappropriate to regard them for the purposes of the Title of the Bill as having the status of reserves required to perform service with the Regular Army. At any rate their reserve service is affected.
If the noble Lord opposite does not like the Government's Title of the Bill I must tell him that I like his even less, because the terms of his Amendment are completely inaccurate. As I have explained, the Bill does not "extend periods of service under the National Service Act, 1948". Nor does it "make further provision with respect to the Territorial Army Special Reserve". No such Reserve exists. Perhaps noble Lords intended to refer to the Territorial Army Emergency Reserve; but this does not exist either, and cannot until the Bill is passed, so one cannot make "further provision" for it. The Territorial Army Emergency Reserve is not directly mentioned as such in the Bill—only in the rubric of Clause 3—and so I believe it would not be correct to refer to it in the Title in any case. So, on balance, I think the noble Lord has come worse out of the debate on the Title than the Government, and I hope he will withdraw his Amendment.
LORD SHACKLETON: I do not think there has been much debate. I do not really like my Amendment at all. We were just trying to help the Government in the way that the Opposition do try
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to help. I think we have done our best, with notable lack of success; but we know the Government are in difficulties, so certainly we should wish to expedite the Bill. As the noble Lord said, we hope that those sections of it that are genuinely concerned with the Reserves, namely, the "Ever-readies", prosper. I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Title agreed to.
House resumed.

  CHEMISTS' LABELLING OF PRESCRIPTIONS
  CHEMISTS' LABELLING OF PRESCRIPTIONS