Sitting of 23 November 1961

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  COMMONWEALTH RELATIONS

    Education Liaison Committee
    Mr. Leatherasked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations if he will issue a White Paper on the work of the Commonwealth Education Liaison Committee.
    The Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations (Mr. Duncan Sandys): As agreed at the Conference on Commonwealth Education held in Oxford in 1959 the Commonwealth Education Liaison Committee, which is responsible to all Commonwealth Governments, will be submitting a report on its activities to the Second Commonwealth Education Conference, which assembles at New Delhi next January. It would not, therefore, be appropriate for the British Government alone to issue a report on its activities.
    Mr. Leather: While thanking my right hon. Friend for that Answer, may I ask him whether he would agree that this organisation and the Association of Universities in the British Commonwealth are doing an invaluable job of work? Can he assure us that a senior Minister will be attending the Education Conference at Delhi in January and say whether a report of that very important conference will be published afterwards?
    Mr. Sandys: I am glad of the opportunity to add my tribute to that of my hon. Friend to the most admirable work that this organisation is doing. I can assure my hon. Friend that a senior Minister will be attending the Conference.

    Commonwealth Immigrants Bill
    Mr. Liptonasked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations what communications from Commonwealth Governments he has received since details of the Commonwealth Immigrants Bill were published.
    Mr. Sandys: Communications with Commonwealth Governments are, of course, confidential.
    Mr. Lipton: While giving the Minister very limited thanks for that reply, having falsely, in the opinion of many people, pretended that there were consultations in the usually accepted sense of the term, may I ask him whether Her Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom will now indicate which Governments, broadly, accepted the proposals in the Bill and which did not? In view of the mess into which the Government have got us here, may we know whether the consultations are still continuing and with which Governments they are continuing, because we must always remember that there are considerable white minorities in some of the countries with which we are supposed to be negotiating?
    Mr. Sandys: Some Commonwealth Governments have expressed criticism of the proposals in the Bill, while others have expressed understanding of the policy embodied in it, but I can assure the hon. Member that consultations are going on with most Commonwealth Governments. The hon. Member asked me what consultations were still going on with Commonwealth Governments. I can assure him that consultations are going on about the application of the measures in the Bill to the various Commonwealth countries concerned.
    Mr. Callaghan: We all appreciate how anxious the Government are that communications of this nature should be kept confidential, but is it not the fact that no consultation took place on the principles of the Bill but that consultation was limited to the manner in which the Bill should be implemented? If that is the case, is it not a measure of how ashamed the Government feel of this Bill that they have tried to disguise the fact from the House so far?
    Mr. Sandys: That is not a fair inference.
    Mr. Callaghan: Whether it be a fair inference or not, may I ask again: is it not a fact that there was no consultation about the principle of the Bill but that it was limited to the manner in which it should operate once it had been passed? Will the right hon. Gentleman answer that?
    Mr. Sandys: It is a little difficult—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] No. The question is not a very straightforward one.
    Mr. Lipton: Nor is the answer.
    Mr. Sandys: Consultation did take place about the Bill in general and about the proposals which it would contain.
    Mr. Lipton: When?
    Mr. Sandys: The Prime Minister explained—I do not think I need elaborate upon it—why the consultation did not take place as early as we should have liked on this matter.

    India and Pakistan (Migration to United Kingdom)
    Mr. Chapmanasked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations what restrictions have been imposed by the Governments of India and Pakistan on migration to Great Britain; in what way and to what extent these arrangements have broken down; and what consultations he has had about strengthening afresh these voluntary arrangements.
    Mr. Sandys: The Governments of India and Pakistan have adopted a number of measures to discourage the emigration to Britain of persons who are illiterate or who have no jobs to come to. It is, I think, generally recognised that these measures, taken in India and Pakistan, cannot be fully effective without complementary measures at this end; and this cannot be done on a voluntary basis.
    Mr. Chapman: Does that Answer mean that, before the Government decided on the Bill and presented it as a fait accompli to the Commonwealth, they made no attempt whatever to bring India and Pakistan, for instance, round the table to discuss the strengthening of the voluntary measures which have been in operation so far? Did they just give up at this point and decide to present
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    them with a Bill whether they liked it or not?
    Mr. Sandys: As I said in my Answer, measures have been taken by the Governments of India and Pakistan to discourage emigration to this country.
    Mr. Chapman.
    Mr. Sandys: It is all very well for the hon. Gentleman to shake his head. I am trying to answer his question. Perhaps he will listen to me.
    Measures have been taken. We consider, and I think the Governments of India and Pakistan consider, that the measures go about as far as it is possible to go on a voluntary basis at one end only. I will give the House the figures in regard to India and Pakistan for the first nine months of this year compared with the same period last year. In 1960, immigrants from India totalled under 4,000. The figure for 1961 is over 15,000. For Pakistan, in the first nine months of last year, 1,000; this year, over 16,000. Obviously, the measures are not fully effective and, as I said before, I think it is recognised that some corresponding measures are necessary at this end.
    Mr. Marquand: Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that it is not possible to say that those measures are not sufficient unless he has evidence of substantial unemployment among Indian and Pakistani people in this country? Has he any such evidence?
    Mr. Sandys: The purpose of the Bill—I do not want to trespass on the broad debates which are taking place—is, of course, not to exclude people from particular countries but to take the necessary powers to be exercised according as the need may arise, to keep the flow of immigrants within bounds.

    European Economic Community
    Mr. Jayasked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations what are the Government's reasons for refusing to supply confidentially to Commonwealth Governments the full text of the proposals affecting Commonwealth trade which he addressed to representatives of the European Economic Community in Paris on 10th October.
    Mr. Fellasked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations why he has again refused to let the Canadian Government see the full text of the statement which the Lord Privy Seal made at the opening of the British negotiations with the Common Market in Paris on 10th October.
    Mr. Sandys: The reasons have been fully explained to the House on several occasions.
    Mr. Jay: Does the right hon. Gentle-realise that to withhold from Commonwealth Governments even the confidential supply of details of the proposals we are making about Commonwealth trade is both insulting to the Commonwealth and a disgrace to this Government? Does he not understand that, in view of the Resolution passed by the House last August, the Government have no mandate whatever to conduct these negotiations in that shabby and discreditable fashion?
    Mr. Sandys: Those strong words do not properly reflect what is going on. It has been explained to the House that, when these negotiations started, we and the Governments of the six countries of the Community had to consider certain matters of procedure. One was whether confidential conference documents should be circulated to Governments not directly taking part in the negotiations.
    In view of the large number of Governments who would have to receive these documents, it was decided that, on balance—we had our hesitations about it—it was better to restrict our communications to the Commonwealth on these matters to summaries of the documents and not allow a general distribution, all round Europe and to the many other parts of the world which would be concerned, of documents which we should want to distribute to the Commonwealth.
    Mr. Fell: Who took the initiative that the documents should be restricted? Did we take the initiative or did a country of Europe or the Six as a whole take the initiative in restricting the documents? If they took the initiative and said that they thought that the documents ought to be restricted, did we put up a fight so that they should not be restricted and kept from the Commonwealth?
    Mr. Sandys: It was a general decision taken by the conference as a whole. Of course, we did not put up a fight because we do not think that it is very desirable that these documents should have a very wide circulation. There are all the E.F.T.A. countries. There are other countries which may be concerned. For instance, the Argentine might say that it was directly affected.
    Mr. Chapman: Really.
    Mr. Sandys: The United States might well say that it had a direct interest. As for the general statement, I admit that it would probably not have done anybody any harm to have it published in the newspapers; but it is a precedent, and, when we come down to detailed discussions of particular commodities, which affect business interests all round the world, it is desirable to have the documents kept confidential.
    Mr. Jay: Does the right hon. Gentleman, as the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations, make no distinction at all between Canada and Argentina? Does not he recall that the Resolution proposed by the Government to this House on 3rd August and approved by the House read in part as follows:
    "…after full consultation with other Commonwealth countries, by whatever procedure they may generally agree."
    Can he possibly pretend that he is honourably carrying out that Resolution?
    Mr. Sandys: The answer to the last part of that supplementary question is "Yes". With regard to the first part, it is not a question of whether we make a distinction between certain countries. The moment that we distribute these documents to all the countries of the Commonwealth, we cannot ignore that the other Six all have their different friends who, they think, may be interested in this thing, and there is a very wide circle.

  BASUTOLAND

    Mr. J. Monau Mokitimi
    Mr. Marquandasked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations whether J. Monau Mokitimi has been

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    deported from Basutoland to the Union of South Africa; and whether he will make a statement.
    The Joint Under-Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations (Mr. Bernard Braine): J. Monau Mokitimi has not been deported from Basutoland. He is now serving six months' sentence for contravening Section 6 (1) of the Basutoland Entry and Residence Proclamation This sentence was upheld by the High Court on appeal.
    With permission I will circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT the full text of the High Commissioner's Press statement of 1st November on the disturbances in Maseru on 31st October which followed on the adjournment of the hearing of Mr. Mokitimi's appeal.
    Mr. Marquand: Can we be assured, then, that there is no question of deporting him? Is the hon. Gentleman aware that this young man, though he was, in fact, born in South Africa, was born there only because his parents were migrant workers from Basutoland to South Africa, as many thousands of Basutos are, and that in every respect he is a Basuto and occupies and plays a prominent part in Basuto affairs?
    Mr. Braine: I note what the right hon. Gentleman says, but Mr. Mokitimi has applied to the High Court for a stay of execution of a deportation order. The application has not yet been heard and is therefore sub judice.
    Mr. Brockway: Is there not an issue at stake here which is much more important than the individual case or the legal proceedings? May it not affect hundreds, if not thousands, of citizens of Basutoland whose parents have gone into South Africa temporarily to work and who happen to have been born there? Will the hon. Gentleman discuss the matter with the Government of the Republic in order to come to an understanding about the citizenship of such persons?
    Mr. Braine: I will ask my right hon. Friend to consider the hon. Gentleman's suggestion.
    Following is the statement:
    Disorder broke out in Maseru at about 4.45 p.m. on 31st October at the adjournment
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    of a case against a Mr. Mokitimi at the High Court where two unarmed African policemen performing normal court duties were seriously injured. A crowd then ran down the main street stoning two or three cars and breaking windows in the hospital, dispensary and nurses home and three windows in a bank. At the same time there was indiscriminate stoning of cars in the African village. In all, ten cars are known to have been damaged and three of the occupants, Europeans, were injured, none very seriously.
    2. Later in the evening a mob attacked a police post near the airfield and was dispersed on the arrival of more police.
    3. Police dispersed the crowds and brought the situation under control. No further incidents were reported after 11 p.m. and patrols continued throughout the night.
    4. An unsuccessful attempt was made to set fire to the Roman Catholic cathedral and a thatched house belonging to the Government was found to be on fire.
    5. Up to the morning of 1st November sixteen persons had been arrested in connection with these disorders.
    6. The Maseru police have been reinforced. The District Commissioner Maseru has issued an order banning all gatherings in public places in Maseru for a week.

  SWAZILAND

    Racial Discrimination
    Mr. Ridleyasked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations what steps have been taken recently to remove racial discrimination in Swaziland.
    Mr. Braine: The High Commissioner has signed Proclamations repealing a number of racially discriminatory laws. With permission, I will circulate a list in the OFFICIAL REPORT. The High Commissioner is considering what further steps of this kind can usefully be taken.
    Mr. Ridley: Can my hon. Friend say something about the discriminatory laws mentioned in the Cowen Report on the Swaziland Constitution?
    Mr. Braine: Three of the discriminatory laws mentioned in the Report by Professor Cowen are included in the list I am circulating. Others are under review, including a new marriage Proclamation which is being discussed with the church bodies.
    Mr. Marquand: May we be assured that it is the policy of Her Majesty's

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    Government that henceforth Swaziland, moving forward to a new constitution, shall do so on an entirely non-racial basis?

    Title of Law

    Extent of Repeal

    Effect of Provisions Repealed

    Transvaal Law No. 3 of 1885

    The whole

    Prohibited Asians from owning immovable property except in streets and locations appointed by the Government for them to live in.

    The Immorality Ordinance 1903 (Transvaal Law No. 46 of 1903).

    Section 19

    Made it an offence for a non-European man to have extra-marital intercourse with a European woman.

    The Control of Native Land Purchases Proclamation—(Chapter 64 of the Laws of Swaziland, 1951).

    The whole

    Provided that no contract for the sale, etc. of land to an African could be valid unless approved by the High Commissioner.

    The Currency (Payment to Natives) Proclamation—Chapter 67.

    The whole

    Provided for all monetary payments to Africans to be made in coins or notes which are legal tender in Swaziland.

    The Concessions Proclamation—Chapter 85.

    Section F of Part VII

    Prescribed a special procedure for the ejectment of an African occupant of land.

    The Cattle Levy (Trypanosomiasis) Proclamation—Chapter 102.

    The whole

    To meet expenditure on measures for bovine trypanosomiasis control. Chapter 102 provided for the imposition of an annual levy calculated for non-Africans on the number of cattle owned; Chapter 103 provided for the imposition of a levy on every adull male African domiciled in Swaziland.

    The Special Levy (Trypanosomiasis) Proclamation—Chapter 103.

    The whole

  CANADA

    Mr. Donald Fleming (Discussions)
    Mr. Fellasked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations if he will make a statement on his recent discussions with Mr. Donald Fleming, the Canadian Finance Minister.
    Mr. Sandys: I have had no official discussions recently with Mr. Fleming, though we had an agreeable lunch together last Monday.
    Mr. Fell: The trouble is that though that was a funny Answer, this is not a funny matter. If I give him the opportunity to do it by answering a Question, "Yes" or "No", will my right hon. Friend restore some of the lost faith of the Commonwealth countries in this country? Will he state categorically that he will resign rather than be a party to any decisions of this Government which may adversely affect Commonwealth trade or the Commonwealth spirit?
    Mr. Sandys: I do not think one gives an undertaking to resign on the basis of hypothetical circumstances, particularly
    Mr. Braine: Yes, Sir; there has been a quite encouraging move in this direction in the territory for some time past.
    Following is the list:
    when I have already made my position on the Commonwealth pretty clear.
    Mr. Bowles: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he does not realise that, if he goes on like this, he will be the Secretary of State for the Worsening of Commonwealth Relations?
    Viscount Hinchingbrooke: Now that my right hon. Friend has said that the initial document opening the discussions with the Common Market might well have been published in the newspapers, will he send a copy of it to Mr. Fleming, who has expressed resentment and anxiety at not having been supplied with it?
    Mr. Sandys: I also said that if we had published it it would have created a very bad precedent for the later stages of the negotiations.
    Mr. Marquand: Does the right hon. Gentleman believe in an expanding Commonwealth? In an expanding Commonwealth is it not inevitable that the number of Governments receiving documents must increase? Has he a distrust of the Commonwealth Governments, the newly joined Governments, and does he think

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    that they will disclose information given to them?
    Mr. Sandys: I have already made it clear that I said that if we asked that this document should be distributed to all Commonwealth countries, it would entail the distribution of this document to a number of other countries.
    Hon. Members: Why?
    Mr. Sandys: What about E.F.T.A., and other countries which have a direct or indirect interest?

  EDUCATION

    Abu Simbel Monuments
    Sir Richard Pilkingtonasked the Minister of Education whether he will make a statement regarding the financial help which the United Kingdom is giving towards the international effort to preserve the 3,000 year old colossi at Abu Simbel.
    The Minister of Education (Sir David Eccles): Her Majesty's Government have already helped in the preservation of the Nubian antiquities by giving a special grant through the British Academy to the Egypt Exploration Society of£10,000 for each of the years 1960–61 and 1961–62. The Government are not at present contemplating any contribution from public funds to the appeal for the preservation of the Abu Simbel monuments.
    Sir Richard Pilkington: Will my right hon. Friend assure the House that he is doing what he can to secure effective international co-operation over this matter?
    Sir D. Eccles: It is very difficult. The response to an appeal for over 60 million dollars is not going well.
    Dr. King: Is the Minister aware that since we debated this matter in the House, it has now become certain that, by a stupendous feat of engineering, the Abu Simbel monuments can be saved at a cost of something like 70 million dollars, of which our own contribution over nine years, if we gave it in proportion to the rest of the civilised world, would be under£3 million? While it may be difficult to make a grant like this in present economic circumstances, will the Government bear in mind that
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    it would be a great contribution to improving the understanding between the West and the Middle East?
    Sir D. Eccles: The amount required is four times U.N.E.S.C.O.'s annual budget, and there are so many children oat of school in Africa that I think it is not in scale.
    Sir G. Nicholson: Will the Minister endeavour to keep a sense of proportion? Is it not a fact that the great monuments of ancient civilisations all over the world are gradually falling into decay and being neglected? Is it not essential, when a new conception of the universe is coming before us, to preserve these relics of ancient glories? Will he not allow his heart to govern his head a little?
    Sir D. Eccles: I agree with my hon. Friend that ancient monuments and objects of beauty ought to be preserved, but there is a scale of proportion here, too.

    Road Safety
    Sir Richard Pilkingtonasked the Minister of Education what further steps he has taken to increase road safety education in schools.
    Sir D. Eccles: My Department has issued a revised pamphlet on "Safety Precautions in Schools" which contains a special chapter on road safety; and I have recently asked local education authorities to intensify their efforts to test and train child cyclists.
    Sir Richard Pilkington: Is my right hon. Friend aware that that Answer is rather more satisfactory than the Answer he gave to the preceding Question?

    School Children (Reduced Fares)
    Mr. Hector Hughesasked the Minister of Education if he is aware that owing to the increase in the school-leaving age parents of children in boarding schools at a distance from home are penalised by the fact that during the last year at school such children are not allowed to travel on British Railways at the reduced fares earlier available to them as schoolchildren, and if he will now consult with the British Transport

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    Commission with a view to the introduction of reduced fares for children of school-leaving age.
    Sir D. Eccles: If local education authorities consider that a child needs boarding education, they have power to help the parents with the travelling expenses as well as with the fees. I cannot interfere with the discretion of fare-fixing bodies to decide on fare concessions.
    Mr. Hughes: Does the Minister realise that this widow's dilemma, of which I have informed him, may deprive the boy of his last year at school, and will he consult the appropriate authorities with a view to avoiding that loss to the boy?
    Sir D. Eccles: The authority is the Aberdeen authority. Perhaps the hon. and learned Gentleman has some means of representing his case to them.
    Mr. McAdden: If the Minister dissents, as I imagine he does, from the view that transport is a social service—it is a means of conveying of people from place to place—will he have consultations with his right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Minister of Labour to see whether the cost of transport from home to school, and from place of residence to place of employment, can be set against Income Tax?
    Sir D. Eccles: That is another question.

    Minor Works
    Mr. J. Wellsasked the Minister of Education how soon he expects some loosening of the temporary restrictions of minor works announced as a result of Circular 13/61.
    Sir D. Eccles: The allocations announced under Circular 13/61 cover a period of eighteen months ending on 31st March, 1963. The allocations for the 1963–64 period will be decided next year, as part of the annual review of the public sector investment programmes.
    Mr. Wells: Is my right hon. Friend aware that this decision to put into eighteen months a smaller sum than is usually allocated for one year is having an extremely adverse effect on the moder-
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    nisation of some of our older primary schools? When this present period of restriction is over, will he look into the question of giving some special assistance to these older primary schools and to those local education authorities which are trying to make special efforts in this direction?
    Sir D. Eccles: Yes, I certainly will try to do that.
    Mr. Willey: Does not the Minister agree that the bad effects of this economy outweigh the saving made? This is a comparatively minor saving, which is causing enormous disturbance in education. Will the right hon. Gentleman see that it is restored earlier, and that the Treasury does not resort to its customary interference with our educational service?
    Sir D. Eccles: The situation is not quite as bad as the hen. Gentleman thinks. We have freed from all control jobs under£2,000, which are now known as the "mini-minor jobs", and which add up to quite a lot of money.

    Educationally Sub-normal Children
    Mr. Scott-Hopkinsasked the Minister of Education how many educationally sub-normal children between the ages of 5 and 11 years at primary schools are receiving specialised teaching, and how many are not.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Education (Mr. Kenneth Thompson): These detailed figures could only be obtained by making special inquiries from more than 22,000 schools. My right hon. Friend has recently collected information from local education authorities about their arrangements for providing special education in ordinary schools and proposes to consider whether more detailed examination of selected areas would be desirable.
    Mr. Scott-Hopkins: Does not my hon. Friend agree that it is absolutely vital to know the size of the problem, particularly in the primary schools, because unless we know exactly how many children are backward it is very difficult to know what to do? Will he look into the matter more closely and see if he can institute an inquiry to find out how many children need this specialised type of education?
    Mr. Thompson: Yes, Sir. The matter is complicated by the wide range of degrees of backwardness which have to be taken into account. I will bear in mind what my hon. Friend says
    Mr. Scott-Hopkinsasked the Minister of Education whether he will institute an inquiry into the progress of educationally sub-normal children after they leave school at the age of 15 years.
    Mr. K. Thompson: A Working Party of the British Council for Rehabilitation is at present considering the needs of handicapped school leavers. It will assess to what extent those needs are being satisfactorily met, and make recommendations. An observer from the Ministry sits on the Working Party. When my right hon. Friend receives its Report, he will consider whether he should institute a special inquiry about educationally sub-normal children.
    Mr. Scott-Hopkins: Do I understand from my hon. Friend that the educationally sub-normal are included in this inquiry about educationally handicapped children? Will he institute an inquiry iii the borstals and various other institutions throughout the country to discover how many of our children are educationally sub-normal?
    Mr. Thompson: Educationally subnormal children are included in the inquiry, and we are gathering together what information we can about the general size of the problem and its distribution.

    Comprehensive Schools
    Mr. Swinglerasked the Minister of Education if he will set up a small committee to carry out a nation-wide survey of comprehensive schools and report on their development, so as to assist local education authorities which are considering the establishment of such schools for the first time.
    Sir D. Eccles: I agree with the view expressed in the recent report on London comprehensive schools that it would be premature to attempt a considered judgment on the success of this type of school. I have no evidence that local
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    education authorities are unable to obtain advice in particular cases when they need it.
    Mr. Swingler: What I was asking for was not a considered judgment but a factual report which would be of benefit to local authorities, who are considering how to get rid of the 11-plus examination and may be unaware of the wide diversity of comprehensive schools which exist and the different techniques and methods being used? As they may also be unaware of the substantial success scored by many of them, would not such a factual report be of great benefit?
    Sir D. Eccles: I do not see how such a factual report could be of value unless it went into all the circumstances and considered whether this type of school was as good or not as good as other types. That is a very difficult thing to do when they have not had long enough to establish themselves.
    Mrs. White: Surely the right hon. Gentleman will agree that, although it may be a difficult thing to do, it will be no more nor less difficult later? Valuations of this kind are always liable to be somewhat subjective. Does not the right hon. Gentleman recognise that, when a local authority embarks on an experiment of this kind, it means a very great deal of wasted time and effort if it has to rely on its own individual contacts to inquire of other local authorities precisely how they have done this, that or the other? The London survey is now two years old. There are schools in other parts of the country which could be treated similarly. Would the right hon. Gentleman please think about this matter again?
    Sir D. Eccles: I agree with the London County Council against the hon. Lady. I do not think that such a report would be of use at this time.

    Evening Institutes (Men Students)
    Mr. Boydenasked the Minister of Education why the number of men students attending evening institutes in 1960–61 has not reached the annual level of attendance attained between 1949 and 1952; and what steps he is taking to improve the situation.
    Sir D. Eccles: The number of men students taking recreational courses fell in 1952–53 following an increase in fees. The figures are now almost back at the previous peak. Many vocational courses have been transferred to technical colleges, so that current attendances represent a notable expansion in adult education over recent years.
    Mr. Boyden: I am surprised that the right hon. Gentleman did not attribute the drop of 68,000 to cutting out ballroom dancing. Will he look at the Education Act, 1944, to see what his obligations are in the further education of adults and try to build up some of the work that was lost by the imposition of fees by the Government which has damaged further education in the last ten years?

    Day Release
    Mr. Boydenasked the Minister of Education why the number of boys and girls aged between 15 and 17, released during the day for study, has declined since 1956–57; what percentage of that age group were day released in 1956–57, 1959–60 and 1960–61, respectively; and what steps he is taking to improve the situation.
    Sir D. Eccles: The percentages for which the hon. Member asks were respectively 12·7, 10·9 and 11·9, but the number of students between 15 and 17 receiving day release rose by about 30,000 between 1956–57 and 1960–61. I hope that the proposals in the White Paper published this year will help to improve the situation, but the main obstacle is failure to appreciate the value of day release.
    Mr. Boyden: Is not this a further indication of the right hon. Gentleman's lack of grasp of this problem? If he cannot make county colleges compulsory, would not one way to help solve the difficulty be to ask local education authorities and technical colleges to appoint more organisers? If the right hon. Gentleman wants to deal with the matter on a voluntary basis, is it not necessary to provide the funds and the staff to get amongst industrialists?
    Sir D. Eccles: The main cause of the trouble is that employers do not yet realise how valuable is day release.
    Mr. Willey: When we last discussed this matter the Minister said that he was having discussions about it with employers and trade unions. When will he be in a position to come to the House and make a statement about those discussions?
    Sir D. Eccles: When the study group on the difficulties of granting the right to young employees to claim release has finished its work. It is in discussion now.

    Gypsies
    Mr. J. Wellsasked the Minister of Education if he will consider the establishment of special temporary all-age schools near caravan sites organised by gypsies and other travellers whose children are at present receiving no regular education.
    Sir D. Eccles: It is for local education authorities to decide how best to provide for the education of nomadic children whilst they remain in the area. On both educational and economic grounds, attendance at a local school is generally the best arrangement.
    Mr. Wells: I appreciate where the responsibility lies, but these are very special cases, with very limited numbers of applications in widely scattered parts of the country. If my right hon Friend could see his way to organising a special central pool of teachers with the necessary special experience, it would help the problem very greatly where it arises.
    Sir. D. Eccles: The difficulty is that the children move about. I think that my hon. Friend would agree that it is better to try to fit them into the schools which are in their area.
    Mr. Dodds: Does not the Minister recognise his responsibility here? Education is the key to solving a problem which is looked on by some as a scandal and others as a nuisance. Does not the right hon. Gentleman recognise the unfairness when some of these children of 10, 11 or 12 years of age who cannot read or write are put into classes, which are already too large, with regular school children? Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that other countries have dealt with this problem by providing special classes in the areas of

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    gypsy encampments? I have a letter from a headmaster which states:
    "The problem of admitting gypsies to the school has been a constant worry for several years now".
    Will not the Minister wake up to this great social evil?
    Sir D. Eccles: It is for local authorities to provide education for the children in their area. In my experience, they do their best, but we must first know that the children are there.
    Mr. Dodds: They are not going to school.

    Commercial Education
    Mr. Walkerasked the Minister of Education what proportion of the total expenditure of public money on education is spent on commercial education.
    Sir D. Eccles: About 10 per cent. of the students in technical and commercial colleges who are working for recognised qualifications, are taking commercial courses, but I am unable to say how much of the public expenditure on education is attributable to them and to students taking commercial courses elsewhere.
    Mr. Walker: Would my right hon. Friend agree that, in spite of the progress made in the past two years, there is still scope for a great deal of improvement in the facilities for commercial education? Will my right hon. Friend confirm that over the coming year probably the proportion spent on commercial education will increase?
    Sir D. Eccles: I can agree with both those points.

    Schools (Black List)
    Mr. Fitchasked the Minister of Education how many of the 2,828 schools placed on the Board of Education black list in 1925 are still in use today.
    Sir D. Eccles: By 1938 the number of schools on the black list had been reduced to 871.
    Since the war, local education authorities have submitted annually lists of the most important and urgent replacement and improvement projects they wished to do. These lists have always exceeded the investment totals that
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    could be permitted, but I have little doubt that very few of the schools on the original black list have not either been closed or improved.
    Mr. Fitch: Would the Minister agree that that Answer is completely evasive? I should like to know the number of schools on the black list today. Surely he has means of ascertaining the number. If he cares to write to local authorities they will be able to supply him with the necessary information.
    Sir D. Eccles: If we kept a list of this kind we should have to have the criteria, which were not very satisfactory before the war, and add to the list schools which were becoming obsolete.
    Mr. Lipton: Why not?
    Sir D. Eccles: As things are at present, it seems better that we should leave it to local authorities to determine their own needs.
    Mr. Willey: Surely the right hon. Gentleman can reply to my hon. Friend's Question. It is not beyond his resources to give the number. Why cannot he give the number and an undertaking that the elimination of this black list is a priority?
    Sir D. Eccles: I do not think that the black list as it was in 1938 is very relavant today, but I have no doubt that what the hon. Gentleman asks could be done.

    Non-Teaching Staff (Pay)
    Mr. Darlingasked the Minister of Education if he will give approximate estimates of the percentages of non-teaching adult male employees of education authorities in England and Wales whose wages are based, respectively, on rates below£10 a week, between£10 and£12 a week, between£12 and£14, and over£14.
    Sir D. Eccles: Authorities inform me of their total expenditure on the salaries and wages of non-teaching staff but not of the numbers employed either as a whole or in particular categories or at particular levels of remuneration. I cannot therefore make even the approximate estimates for which the hon. Member asks.
    Mr. Darling: I was well aware that the Minister did not have the information. Without it, how could he make the statement, as he did last week, which gave the impression that these people will be getting around or towards£1,000 a year in the manner that the Prime Minister promised? Will the Minister explain how somebody earning about£12 a week, which, I understand, is the average wage in this case, can get up to£1,000 a year if wage increases are to be tied to a 2½per cent. annual increase in productivity when a 5 per cent. increase is required each year, starting this year, to fulfil the Prime Minister's promise?
    Sir D. Eccles: I explained to the hon. Member last week that continuing Conservative Governments would achieve this.

    Teacher Training Colleges (Married Women)
    Mr. Swinglerasked the Minister of Education if he will publish a list of teachers' training colleges which at present provide day places for married women; and to what extent these courses are timed to enable married women with responsibility for children of school age to take advantage of them.
    Sir D. Eccles: I am sending the hon. Member a list of 114 colleges. Nearly every general training college that admits women is ready to take married women and I am sure that they will do all they can to arrange convenient daily time-tables. College vacations more than cover normal school holidays.
    Mr. Swingler: Can the Minister, therefore, say over what proportion of the country the opportunity exists for married women living at home and who have responsibilities with young children to get day courses to train themselves as teachers?
    Sir D. Eccles: The best answer I can give is that the hon. Gentleman should study the list of 114 colleges.

  BAHAMAS

    Women (Enfranchisement)
    Mr. Brockwayasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies when the extension of enfranchisement to women will come into operation in the Bahamas.
    The Secretary of State for the Colonies (Mr. Reginald Maudling): On 30th June, 1962.
    Mr. Brockway: Is it possible for the right hon. Gentleman, in view of the fact that he is still responsible for the Government of this Colony, to advance the date? There may be by-elections before the General Election which is expected that year. Is it not an outrage that we should still have this discrimination between men and women in the franchise in any Colony?
    Mr. Maudling: The original proposal was that it should come into force on 1st January, 1963, but as there is to be a General Election in the spring of 1963 we brought it forward to June, 1962, which should take care of the difficulty.

  MALTA

    Constitution
    Mr. Brockwayasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what statements he has received from representatives of the political parties in Malta on his constitutional proposals for that territory.
    Mr. Maudling: Since the promulgation of the new constitution I have received the views of the leader of the Progressive Constitutional Party. At an earlier stage, comments on the Constitutional Commission's recommendations were received from that party and from the Democratic Nationalist Party, the Democratic Christian Party and the Christian Workers Party.
    Mr. Brockway: Has the Minister seen today the declaration of view of the different parties? Is he aware that only one insignificant party, which did not elect a single representative to the last Parliament, has endorsed these proposals and said that it will participate in the election? Will the Minister do something, even at this late hour, to liberalise a Constitution which restricts the powers of the Maltese people more than in the case of any other Colony which has self-government?
    Mr. Maudling: No, Sir. The proposals, or the Constitution which we have introduced, represent a great advance. The important thing now is to

    1533
    get on with elections. Once there have been elections and there is a Government, we can have further consultations.
    Mr. Wall: Would it not be wise to make it clear now that once the island is viable there is no reason why she should not be a sovereign independent member of the Commonwealth?
    Mr. Maudling: The important thing is to concentrate on the next step, which is the elections under the new Constitution. We have made it clear that this is not, in our view, the final step in Malta's progress.
    Mr. Callaghan: Does not the Minister realise that part of the successful prospect for these elections lies in making it clear that this is only an interim Constitution and that there will be further movement towards self-government in the near future? To make a success of these elections, will not the Minister make a considered statement along these lines?
    Mr. Maudling: My predecessor and I have said on more than one occasion that we do not regard the present situation as the final stage in Malta's progress. It should be a perfectly adequate basis upon which to hold an election and to get an elected Government in power.
    Sir P. Agnew: Is it not a fact that, in the meantime, the new Constitution contains powers that are so far-reaching that the actual and crucial control of finance will be vested in the elected Government of Malta, when it is known who that will be after the elections have taken place?
    Mr. Maudling: If properly studied, these proposals will be seen to be very far-reaching, progressive proposals indeed.
    Mr. Callaghan: Is the Colonial Secretary aware that except for one copy in the Library, the new Constitution is not available in the House of Commons? Will he look into this to ensure that hon. Members may have access to it should it be needed for debate?
    Mr. Maudling.

  MINISTERS
  Mr. Donnellyasked the Prime Minister what estimate he has made of the increased expenditure arising in a full year from the appointment of new Ministers, the upgrading of certain Ministers and the employment of their additional staff.
  The Prime Minister (Mr. Harold Macmillan): If the hon. Member will let me know which particular appointments he has in mind, I will gladly try to give him the information he wants.
  Mr. Donnelly: Is the Prime Minister aware that the appointments I have in mind are the new Departmental Ministers, the creation of a new Department, and so on, and the double-banking of Ministers of the Treasury and the Foreign Office? Is he aware that there are two points at issue? One is whether we are getting any modest value for the money expended; and secondly, whether it is a question of administrative efficiency. Can the Prime Minister point to any period in history in which the double-banking of Cabinet Ministers has ever been a success? Is he justifying this on the ground of efficiency or is he claiming that it sustains his Government and gives them stiffening by clamping his colleagues together two at a time?
  The Prime Minister: The second half of that supplementary question has gone rather further than the original Question If the hon. Member will write to me or let me know what figures he wants as regards Ministers or any consequential staffs, I will try to have them worked out and sent to him.

  DISARMAMENT
  Mr. A. Hendersonasked the Prime Minister whether, following the resolution of the General Assembly Political Committee of the United Nations of 14th November, he will consult the Commonwealth Prime Ministers with a view to securing a Commonwealth policy in support of the prohibition of all nuclear weapons with an effective system of inspection and control.
  The Prime Minister: There has already been considerable Commonwealth consultation on this important subject. The statement issued after the

  1535
  last Commonwealth Prime Ministers' Conference embodied a common approach to the problem of disarmament and looked to the elimination not only of nuclear but also—and this is just as important—of conventional armaments, subject to verification. The resolution referred to by the right hon. and learned Gentleman made no provision for any kind of verification or control.
  Mr. Henderson: Will the Prime Minister make it clear that Her Majesty's Government would be willing to agree to the prohibition of the use of all nuclear weapons in the first stage of a general disarmament treaty provided that it is accompanied by an effective system of inspection?
  The Prime Minister: In the last three or four years we have put forward, as the right hon. and learned Gentleman knows, a number of very constructive and far-reaching proposals. We are disappointed that we have not had more success. We are making a new effort now. The fact that the Soviet Government have accepted our proposal for taking up again the question of tests gives some encouragement. We shall press forward.
  Mr. Gaitskell: Would the Prime Minister agree that, following the declaration on disarmament by the Prime Ministers' Conference, it would be admirable if the whole of the Commonwealth in the United Nations could put forward the proposals that were set out in that declaration?
  The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir. The right hon. Gentleman knows the complication of the way that resolutions are moved, seconded and promoted. We are trying our best—and I am sure that the right hon. and learned Gentleman who asked the Question has tried to help me in this—to get this broad Commonwealth view as commonly known and as widely expressed as possible.
  Mr. Gaitskell: Would not the best way of doing that be for the Commonwealth proposals to be put forward in the United Nations Assembly? Is there any possible objection to this?
  The Prime Minister: There is no objection, but there are resolutions of procedural and other kinds. I will, how-
  1536
  ever, consider what the right hon. Gentleman has said.
  Mr. S. Silverman: Is it not a fact, from a practical point of view, that over a large part of the field any breaches of an agreement to ban tests would be self-evident and that the problem of inspection and control is confined to a small area of underground explosions? Was it not the failure to agree over this very small part of the programme that prevented an earlier agreement?
  The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir, but it was because we had made so much progress that I was disappointed—I think we all were—that the discussions were broken off. They were then followed by tests on an immense scale by the Soviet Government in the atmosphere. Undeterred by this setback, the British and American Governments made a further offer to renew the test discussions in Geneva or elsewhere. In the circumstances, I think that was the right thing to do, but it was certainly a generous thing to do. I am happy to feel that that has been accepted and we may now hope that further discussion will take place.
  Mr. P. Noel-Baker: Can the Prime Minister tell us if he is setting up a department or committee to work out plans for carrying out the general policy of disarmament set out in the Commonwealth Prime Ministers' declaration?
  The Prime Minister: No, I think our present planning organisation is quite sufficient. The difficulty is to make progress with the Soviet Government in actual day-to-day discussion.

  GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS AND POLITICAL PARTIES
  Mr. Ginsburgasked the Prime Minister what are the most recent instructions which govern the relations of Government Departments, and civil servants in their official capacity, with political parties.
  The Prime Minister: I would refer the hon. Member to the Establishments Circular No. 36 of 1958, a copy of which is available in the Library of the House. Paragraph 4 of the Circular states the general principle that official resources

  1537
  cannot properly be put at the disposal of outside bodies whose purpose is to further the policies of a particular political party.
  Mr. Ginsburg: Yes, but does the Prime Minister think that the recent interview at the Treasury of two members of the Observer staff with two civil servants and two members of the Conservative Central Office conforms with the spirit of that instruction? Does he think that?
  The Prime Minister: I think all this was dealt with at some length at Question Time recently by my right hon. and learned Friend. I think that it was explained that it was merely convenience and courtesy not to put the reporter at the extra trouble of having to attend two meetings.
  Mr. Woodburn: Could the Prime Minister tell us whether as head of the Civil Service he visited Glasgow in that capacity when he appealed for funds for the Conservative Party? Was the Prime Minister acting as head of the Civil Service or head of the Conservative Party?
  The Prime Minister: I have many burdens to carry but I am not head of the Civil Service.

  ELDERLY PEOPLE (ASSISTANCE)
  Dame Irene Wardasked the Prime Minister whether he will instruct all Ministers concerned with elderly people to take such special measures as are within their power to give them assistance at Christmas time.
  The Prime Minister: I imagine that my hon. Friend has some specific measures in mind. I should be happy to look into any suggestions which she likes to put to me, or to those of my right hon. Friends concerned.
  Dame Irene Ward: While much appreciating the kindly thought behind the Prime Minister's statement at the Guildhall and the response evoked as evidenced by the Daily Mail campaign, may I ask him, on the general theme of loneliness, whether he is aware that a great deal of it arises from the increase in charges for telephone calls, the in-
  1538
  crease in rents, the increase in cost of travelling, and also, of course, from the depreciation of the War Loan? May I am him whether, now that he has been able to make this comment which has evoked such a wide response, he is now in a position to consider what will be done for those living on small fixed incomes?
  The Prime Minister: I think that I made it clear that while the ordinary systems under our Welfare State arrangements for taking care of old people have, I think, steadily improved in the lifetime of this Government—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."]—what we were discussing then is a matter on which, I think, there is common agreement in the House, that, apart from whatever may be the level at any given moment of that form of assistance, there is still great room in any highly organised society for human, personal effort by individual people in giving comfort and friendliness to their neighbours.

  PALACE OF WESTMINSTER (MINISTERIAL ROOMS)
  Mr. C. Pannellasked the Prime Minister whether he will cause arrangements to be made in the allocation of Ministerial rooms in the Palace of Westminster to allow the Leader of the House to be more accessible to hon. Members.
  The Prime Minister: I think that hon. Members are finding that my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House is as accessible to them as his predecessors have always been.
  Mr. Pannell: How can the Prime Minister say that when the previous Leader of the House—indeed, previous Leaders of the House back through Lord Crookshank to my right hon. Friend the Member for South Shields (Mr. Ede) and right back to Lord Morrison—all occupied a room a few steps behind the Chamber, which is armed with an annunciator which indicates which Members are speaking, whereas the present Leader of the House has to go down several flights of stairs or go up in a lift which has been known to stick?
  Further than that, the installation of an annunciator in his room would cost anything from£250 to£300, and he needs it

  1539
  if he is intelligently to follow the course of the debate. Will the Prime Minister say who is the best Leader of the House we have got at the present time? Or will he tell us whether the present Home Secretary is a potential Prime Minister? Or is he prepared to define him as deputy Prime Minister. [HON. MEMBERS: "Speech."] Will he bear in mind that in the party political broadcast last evening the present Leader of the House—
  Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member must confine himself to matters arising out of the Answer. He seems to be getting rather far away from that.
  Mr. Pannell: On a point of order. Surely it would be a gross difficulty if an hon. Member were to be deterred merely by the amount of noise on the opposite side of the House rather than by consideration of the relevancy of the contribution he is making? I was going to finish on this note. The present Leader of the House did say that he wanted policies which were relevant and decisive. This question is relevant and decisive: that he should be as near to the Chamber as possible for the convenience of the House.
  The Prime Minister: Of course, all these very relevant considerations must be taken into account, and what we have tried to do is to serve the convenience of the Leader of the House himself and of the House generally. I have not, in the many years I have been in the House, observed an exceptionally heavy traffic between the Chamber and the room of the Leader of the House. On the other hand, the room which the Leader of the House is at present occupying is, I think, quicker to reach from the Tea Room, the Cafeteria, the Smoking Room, the Library, and the Terrace.

  IMMIGRATION (COMMONWEALTH GOVERNMENTS)
  Mr. C. Royleasked the Prime Minister whether he will circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT the representations he has received from Heads of Governments in the Commonwealth about the legislation to restrict immigration, together with his replies.
  The Prime Minister: No, Sir. Any exchanges of personal messages between Heads of Commonwealth Governments are normally kept confidential.
  Mr. Royle: Could not the Prime Minister do rather better than that? Is it not a fact that, in the course of a few days, the House, in Committee, will be considering the Commonwealth Immigrants Bill? Is it not right that we should have full information before us with regard to the consultation and correspondence which has taken place between the leaders of the Commonwealth on this very serious matter?
  The Prime Minister: As I say, it has always been the practice for these personal messages to be kept confidential. In point of fact, since this is pressed, I have myself seen no personal messages from any other Commonwealth Prime Minister. Comments have been received, in response to the telegrams sent out, from certain Commonwealth Governments. These are being taken into account in working out detailed arrangements for the Bill and the administration of the controls.
  Mr. Gaitskell: Does not the Prime Minister realise that at least one Prime Minister in the Commonwealth is clearly gravely dissatisfied with the consultation, or so-called consultation, which took place? I refer, of course, to Sir Grantley Adams. Will the Prime Minister say whether he accepts the facts set out in Sir Grantley's telegram of which I informed him yesterday, and, if so, is it not plain that no consultation whatever took place with the Prime Minister of the Federation of the West Indies before the Government made their decision to introduce the Bill? Is not this a really intolerable way to treat the Head of a Territory in the Commonwealth which was bound to be gravely affected by this Measure?
  The Prime Minister: Well, the right hon. Gentleman sent me a letter on this subject last evening, and at the same time informed me that he was sending it to the Press. Happily, in spite of the lateness of the hour, I was able both to give him the courtesy of a reply and not to have unduly to delay its publication. I have nothing to add to what I said in the letter.
  Mr. Gaitskell: Are we then to take it from that reply that the Prime Minister thinks chat consultation is adequate with the Commonwealth, with the Prime Ministers in the Commonwealth, so long as they are told what the Government's intention is—that it is not necessary to consult them beforehand? Are we to assume that this is the kind of consultation which is taking place during the Common Market negotiations?
  The Prime Minister: The right hon. Gentleman knows quite well that informal and confidential discussions on this matter have gone on for a long time. As I said in my letter, the Government provided information of their intention, invited comments, and sought the cooperation of the West Indian Government in implementing any scheme outlined. That is what I understand to be consultation. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman is confusing consultation with concurrence.
  Mr. Gaitskell: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that what I am complaining about in the first instance is that Sir Grantley Adams and other Commonwealth Prime Ministers were not consulted before Her Majesty's Government took their decision? How can one call it consultation when Her Majesty's Government make up their mind before consulting Commonwealth Prime Ministers?
  Does the right hon. Gentleman really think it adequate, in view of the gravity of the consequences of this Measure, simply to inform the Prime Minister of the West Indies Federation, on 13th October, of the general intentions of the Government and express readiness, in Sir Grantley's own words:
  "…to discuss any matter which might arise from time to time from the operation of the Bill"?
  Does the Prime Minister really think it adequate to do this and then to send copies of the Bill
  "…but without an invitation to comment…"
  —again I use the words of Sir Grantley's telegraph—and finally—and this is the only other piece of "consultation"—explain the mechanics of the voucher system and ask for co-operation? How can the Prime Minister possibly defend this way of treating a very old
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  friend of this country who carries a heavy responsibility in the West Indies, the Territories of which will, I repeat, be very seriously affected by this Measure?
  The Prime Minister: The right hon. Gentleman is perfectly aware of the circumstances. This matter had been discussed and had been in the air for a very long time. Confidential and informal discussions were held, and the Commonwealth Prime Ministers knew of what might be forced upon Her Majesty's Government as the effect of recent immigration. That was well known. They knew perfectly well. In the details of operation of such a scheme, we are in consultation and continue to be in consultation.
  As to the principle, we have never been consulted, as far as I know, by any Commonwealth Government, or asked for our concurrence in any of their immigration policies, which are their affair.
  Mr. Gaitskell: Does not the Prime Minister feel, in view of the reaction in the West Indies, and particularly in view of what Sir Grantley Adams has said, that it would be a courteous gesture, if no more, to invite Sir Grantley to this country and to discuss with him not merely the details of the Bill but the principle involved?
  The Prime Minister: I think that throughout this matter, the right hon. Gentleman has never committed himself, and he is trying to ride away from—[Interruption.]—for what no doubt are very good reasons to him—the question as to whether we should have a system of control of immigration.
  Mr. Gaitskell: Is the Prime Minister aware that if he had condescended to attend the debate on the Bill he would not have been so foolish as to make that statement?
  The Prime Minister: The right hon. Gentleman knows that I had engagements of a public nature which I could not avoid. That question is on a par with sending me a letter at 6 o'clock in the evening hoping to get it published before my reply. [Interruption.]
  Mr. Speaker: Order. I should be grateful if the House would make a little less noise, as I have some difficulty in hearing the exchanges.
  Mr. Grimond: Can the right hon. Gentleman help us on two matters of fact? [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] Was this matter discussed with the Commonwealth Prime Ministers when they were here in Conference not so very long ago? Were they informed of the contents of the Bill before it was published to the Conservative Party?
  The Prime Minister: The Prime Ministers' Conference did not, in public in its own sessions, discuss this question as Prime Ministers.
  Mr. M. Foot: When the right hon. Gentleman takes full responsibility for this shocking state of affairs, can he tell us whether, in this particular instance, he has not been able to find a convenient scapegoat on whom to shuffle his own responsibility?
  The Prime Minister: I have a little sympathy with the hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. M. Foot) on that point, because he is a kind of born scapegoat.
  Mr. N. Pannell: Is it not a fact that the Prime Minister of the West Indies and other Premiers in those islands have persistently refused to co-operate with Her Majesty's Government in consideration of any measure to control this serious problem?
  The Prime Minister: I have made it plain that we have, of course, had informal confidential talks on this matter for a long time. [HON. MEMBERS: "When?"] Before the point was reached when Her Majesty's Government reached a decision in principle. It was necessary to consult about its application, and that was done.

KENYA CONSTITUTION (AMENDMENT)
The following Question stood upon the Order Paper:
Sir R. ROBINSON: To ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether it is proposed to amend the provision in the Kenya (Constitution) Order in Council which disqualifies persons who have undergone a sentence of two years or more imprisonment from standing as candidates for election to the Kenya Legislature.
The Secretary of State for the Colonies (Mr. Reginald Maudling): With permission, Mr. Speaker, I should now like to answer Question No. 40.
Yes, Sir. I have discussed the matter very fully with the Governor and I have reached the conclusion that the Constitution should be amended so as to remove the provision to which my hon. Friend refers. Accordingly, an appropriate amendment to the Order in Council will be submitted to Her Majesty in Council in the near future.
I am satisfied that responsible opinion generally in Kenya, and, in particular, the main political parties, accept that, in the developing situation in Kenya, the Constitution should give all people, subject only to the normal disabilities, the chance of pursuing their political aims by legitimate political means.
I believe that this step will help us to secure our main objective in Kenya, which is to achieve constitutional advance on lines generally acceptable to the people of the country.
Sir R. Robinson: Bearing in mind the inevitability of this statement, following Mr. Kenyatta's release in August, can my right hon. Friend say whether, as has been suggested in some quarters, any secret understanding was reached on this or any other matter with Mr. Kenyatta and the K.A.N.A. delegation which visited this country a couple of weeks ago?
Mr. Maudling: No, Sir. No secret understanding of any kind whatever was reached. To reaffirm that, I should add that I am acting on the recommendation of the Governor and of the Government of Kenya.
Mr. Callaghan: Why has it taken the right hon. Gentleman so long to reach this decision, which has been pressed upon him by a number of hon. Members on this side of the House? Can we take it that he has the full support of his party in permitting Mr. Kenyatta to stand for election and, if the electors of Kenya so decide, to become Chief Minister?
Mr. Maudling: This decision has not been an easy one to reach, and that is why it has taken time. It would be foolish, in a matter of this kind, to rush decisions. The decision has now been

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taken and I hope that the House will support me in trying to encourage further peaceful advance in Kenya.
Mr. F. M. Bennett: Does this mean that the K.A.D.U. members of the Government of Kenya support this action? If that is so, does not my right hon. Friend think that they deserve a pat on the back for supporting the return of their chief political opponent at the moment?
Mr. Maudling: Yes, Sir. This decision certainly received the support of K.A.D.U. members of the Kenya Government.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Mr. Gaitskell: May I ask the Leader of the House whether he will state the business of the House for next week?
The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Mr. Iain Macleod): Yes, Sir. The business for next week will be as follows:
MONDAY, 27TH NOVEMBER—Second Reading of the Army Reserve Bill, and Committee stage of the Money Resolution.
Consideration of the Motions to approve the Double Taxation Relief (Taxes on Income) (Pakistan), and the (Shipping and Air Transport Profits) (Portugal) Orders.
TUESDAY, 28TH NOVEMBER—Debate on Public Investment, which will arise on a Government Motion to take note of the White Paper (Command No. 1522).
Consideration of the Motion to approve the House of Commons Disqualification Order.
WEDNESDAY, 29TH NOVEMBER—Second Reading of the Coal Industry Bill, and Committee stage of the Money Resolution.
Consideration of the Motion to approve the British Broadcasting Corporation Licence and Charter Order.
THURSDAY, 30TH NOVEMBER—Supply [2nd Allotted Day]:
Motion to move Mr. Speaker out of the Chair, when a debate will arise on
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an Amendment to take note of the First, Second and Third Reports, 1960–61, from the Committee of Public Accounts, and of the Special Report relating to them.
FRIDAY, 1ST DECEMBER—Consideration of private Members' Motions.
MONDAY, 4m DECEMBER—The proposed business will be: Committee and remaining stages of the Coal Industry Bill.
Second Reading of the Forth and Clyde Canal (Extinguishment of Rights of Navigation) Bill, and Committee stage of the Money Resolution.
Mr. Gaitskell: In view of the reactions in the Commonwealth and the complete muddle into which the Government have got as to whether Ireland should be included in the Bill or not, may I ask whether it is the Government's intention to proceed with the Committee stage of the Commonwealth Immigrants Bill, and if so, when?
Mr. Macleod: Of course it is the Government's intention to proceed with the consideration of the Bill on the Floor of the House, as we have undertaken to do. It is not in the business which I have announced, but no doubt it will be following shortly.
Mr. Montgomery: May I draw the attention of my right hon. Friend to his answer last week about the future of the shipbuilding industry and whether we could have a debate on the subject? He said that he would try to give us a debate some time before Christmas, but could not really promise it. Can my right hon. Friend promise definitely today that we shall have a debate before the Christmas Recess?
Mr. Macleod: I cannot go further than I did last week. There is an Adjournment debate tomorrow afternoon which I am answering, into which this matter will particularly come.
Mr. C. Royle: In view of the exchanges this afternoon, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he will now advise the Home Secretary that it would be a good idea to have some real consultations before we get to the Committee stage of the Commonwealth Immigrants Bill?
Mr. Macleod: I do not think that I need add to the exchanges that have taken place. These consultations are, of course, going on.
Dame Irene Ward: Referring to my right hon. Friend's reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle-upon-Tyne, East (Mr. Montgomery), may I ask whether he is aware that the debate tomorrow will not be on the shipbuilding industry? Is he aware that what I want is the Minister of Transport standing in front of the Dispatch Box so that we can all find out what he is up to.
Mr. Macleod: I can assure my hon. Friend that I fully understand her point. If my answer was not clear, I should say that what I meant was that the subject which would come into tomorrow's debate was the allocation of time and not the actual shipping point itself.
Mr. C. Pannell: Will the Leader of the House be bringing forward a Motion next week to set up the House of Commons Accommodation Committee, which we had last Session, as it needs to be a continuing body? If he does, will he consider widening its terms of reference in such a way that the Minister of Works will respect the feelings of the House rather more than he did on the Report of the Committee last Session?
Mr. Macleod: No, Sir. I have no present plans for bringing forward such a Motion.
Mr. S. Silverman: With reference to what the right hon. Gentleman said about the Committee stage of the Commonwealth Immigrants Bill, may I ask whether he has given consideration to what length of time this Committee stage will require? Has his attention been drawn to the fact that there are already a large number of Amendments on the Notice Paper—I think more than 40—and that, as I understand, there are a lot more to go down yet? Will the right hon. Gentleman undertake that there will be sufficient time to consider the Bill in Committee properly and in full, without undue haste, and that at no stage will he introduce a guillotine Motion on it?
Mr. Macleod: I am, of course, seized of the importance of the Bill and I have already studied the Amendments which so far have been put on the Notice Paper.
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We will follow the usual procedure, which is of taking account of representations and suggesting, through the usual channels, what we think is an appropriate amount of time and seeing how we proceed on that basis.
Mr. H. Wilson: With reference to Thursday's business, is the right hon. Gentleman aware that last year we picked out one subject for discussion, namely, guided missiles, but that this year it will be the intention of hon. Members who hope to catch your eye, Mr. Speaker, that we should have a general debate over the whole coverage of the various P.A.C. Reports which raise a very wide range of issues? Is the right hon. Gentleman also aware that it is generally desired that we should not have a Departmental reply, but a Treasury Minister to reply to the debate?
Mr. Macleod: Yes, Sir, I am aware of that. I understand that to be the general position. The Special Report to which I referred in my business statement, which is a Treasury Minute of Reply, will be available today.
Mr. Thorpe: Could the right hon. Gentleman tell us a little more about the time which it is hoped the Commonwealth Immigrants Bill will take to pass through the House? We appreciate that the Government are in some difficulty, having the Irish in one moment and out the next—and I understand that they are coming back in again—and that the Government will want time to draft Amendments to their own Bill. Is it the right hon. Gentleman's intention that this squalid little Measure will be passed by Christmas, or are we to have adequate time to debate, with proper consultation with the Commonwealth?
Mr. Macleod: It is certainly the intention to take further stages of the Bill before Christmas.
Mr. Hector Hughes: Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that what he said about the shipbuilding industry is very unsatisfactory and that the shipbuilding and ship-repairing industries deserve time to have their problems fully discussed? When will the right hon. Gentleman find the time for a debate?
Mr. Macleod: On all these requests I would much rather play Santa Claus than Scrooge at present. The fact is that I simply have not got the days available.

PERSONAL STATEMENT
The Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. T. G. D. Galbraith): With your permission, Mr. Speaker, and that of the House, I wish to make a short personal statement.
Yesterday, in winding up the debate on the Second Reading of the Housing (Scotland) Bill, I said that
"…one large burgh in the industrial area has found that the problem of overcrowding in the existing stock of houses could be solved if the town could rearrange its tenants according to the numbers in their families."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 22nd November, 1961; Vol. 649, c. 1466–7.]
In answer to an interjection, I said that the burgh concerned was Paisley.
While Paisley has, indeed, reported that overcrowding in council houses could largely be abated by rearranging its tenants, the authority which has reported that rearrangement could completely solve the problem of overcrowded tenants in council houses is Hamilton Town Council.
I am sorry that I confused the two burghs in this way and that I did not perhaps make it entirely clear that I was thinking of overcrowding in the local authority's houses and not overcrowding in the burgh generally.
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I wish to apologise for misleading the House in this way.
Mr. T. Fraser Mr. T. Fraser rose—
Mr. Speaker: No, we cannot have a debate on this statement.
Mr. Fraser: I do not think that anyone will want a debate, Sir, but my hon. Friend the Member for Paisley (Mr. J. Robertson) was very excited last night and objected vigorously when his constituency was mentioned in this connection. The Under-Secretary of State for Scotland would not give way, but now he says that what he said about Paisley he should have said about my constituency. I just want to say that what the Under-Secretary said about Paisley last night is just as inaccurate in its application to Hamilton, and that—
Mr. Speaker: No, we do not allow debates on personal statements.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE (SUPPLY)
Ordered,
That this day Business other than the Business of Supply may be taken before Ten o'clock.—[Mr. Iain Macleod.]

ORDERS OF THE DAY
  SUPPLY
  [FIRST ALLOTTED DAY]

  CIVIL AVIATION
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair.—[Mr. Redmayne.]
  3.50 p.m.
  Mr. John Strachey: I beg to move, to leave out from "That" to the end of the Question and to add instead thereof:
  "this House, while expressing its deep appreciation of the efforts of the British Overseas Airways Corporation and the British European Airways Corporation to provide safe and efficient services, regrets that the operation of the Civil Aviation (Licensing) Act, 1960, and the policies of Her Majesty's Government threaten the position of the two Corporations and endanger the best interests of British aviation."
  We move this Amendment because it appears to us that both the Civil Aviation (Licensing) Act, 1960, and the Government's policy as a whole are working extremely inefficiently and unsatisfactory in three major respects. There is, first, the question of safety, with which, although it is often forgotten, Section 1 of the Act is entirely concerned. There is, secondly, the question of the strength of the Air Corporations, B.O.A.C. and B.E.A., and their ability to hold their own in very fierce international competition. There is, thirdly, the question of the consequential effects of any weakening of the position of the Corporations on the British aircraft industry and on British aviation as a whole. I shall try to deal with these three matters one after the other.
  First, on the question of safety, repeat at the outset, what I have said before in the House of Commons and in Committee, that I have no desire to blacken the reputation, certainly on this matter of safety, of any section of British aviation. It is, of course, perfectly true that any air operator in any section of the industry may have the misfortune to have an air accident. Nevertheless, we cannot neglect the fact that there have been four fatal accidents in the last two months and that they have caused 71 deaths. Of these, the tragic accidents at Stavanger and near Perpignan are
  1552
  the two which have made a deep impression on the public mind and caused deep concern.
  Whatever may be the explanation, one must face the actual fact that all these accidents have been on non-scheduled charter flights run by independent airlines. It is necessary to point out these facts because of public concern and anxiety and I do not think that Parliament would be doing its duty unless it did so.
  It is, of course, very difficult to compare the accident rate over a term of years—that is the real thing—of independent flying and charter flying in general with that of the Corporations on scheduled flying. All the figures which I have been able to ascertain are incomplete and one can only make estimates. A number of estimates have been made in this House. The hon. Member for Twickenham (Mr. Grsham Cooke), for example, said the other day that in his opinion the independents had had over a period of years seven times as many accidents per passenger mile flown as the Corporations.
  Flight, in its issue of 19th October, which was quoted in a recent Adjournment debate by my hon. Friend the Member for Barnsley (Mr. Mason), stated:
  "The independent fatality rate over the past six years has been eight times higher than the Corporations".—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 14th November, 1961; Vol. 694, c. 325.]
  As a matter of fact the figures that I have got out do not show as wide a difference as that; nevertheless, there can be no doubt that there is a very wide differential here.
  Mr. William Shepherd: Will the right hon. Gentleman state the basis on which these comparisons are calculated?
  Mr. Strachey: Some of these comparisons are for passenger miles flown and others of air movements. We can take one basis or the other. I do not say which is the more relevant.
  Whatever the figure is, and I do not think that any of us can be dogmatic about it, there can be no doubt that there is a very wide difference—too big a difference to overlook. I wonder what would have been said in the House of Commons if the figures were the other way round and the Corporations had an

  1553
  accident rate many times higher than that of the independents.
  Sir Arthur Vere Harvey: I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman is trying to be fair. He said that these accidents went in cycles, but I think that about three years ago, if I recollect correctly, speaking from memory, B.E.A. had a bad accident at Munich, involving Manchester United football team, followed by a Viscount accident, which killed many people, at Manchester. I think that it is very unfair to take a particular three months' period and tie it up with accident rates. One has to take a period of years.
  Mr. Strachey: It would be very unfair to quote a three months' period. That is why I was quoting Flight, which has taken a six-year period. That is the point—it is for a number of years. But I think that it is fair to say that it has been the last three months' period which has brought this matter into very great public concern.
  The question to which the House has to address itself and, I would suggest, to which the Minister must address himself, is: what is the cause of this very great difference in the rate? I think that neither the Minister nor any of us would like to assume that this is necessarily a question concerning the private operators as such. I think that, on the contrary, it may be bound up with the question of charter flying as such. The more I look into the matter, the more I think that may have a good deal to do with it.
  I return to the observations of the hon. Member for Twickenham on this matter, because I thought that it was very relevant when he asked, last week: to what extent does this route testing take place with the charter companies? He was getting on to something which seemed to me to be of very great importance. I recognise, and the Parliamentary Secretary has assured us often enough, that the safety regulations are just the same for the Corporations as they are for the private operators. I would think that the question of aircraft was probably not very relevant. The charter aircraft of the independents are probably older, but that does not necessarily mean that they are unsafe if properly inspected.
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  I entirely agree with that. But I am concerned about the regulations of the pilots and the question of route testing and training and the question of the pilots in general. It is in that sphere that I think we are most likely to find some of the causes of this very remarkable difference which we simply cannot overlook.
  I ask the House to consider the Air Navigation Order, 1960, which lays down certain regulations, in particular, paragraph 1 (5, a) of the Tenth Schedule. I am sure that the Minister is familiar with these regulations which read, in part:
  "The pilot designated as commander of the aircraft for the flight shall within the relevant period—
  (i) have demonstrated to the satisfaction of the operator that he has adequate knowledge of the route to be taken, the aerodromes of take-off and landing…"
  and there then follows a whole list of other considerations.
  Paragraph 1 (5, b) of that Schedule says:
  "In determining whether a pilot's knowledge of the matters referred to in sub-paragraph (a) (i) is sufficient to render him competent to perform the duties of aircraft commander on the flight, the operator shall take into account the pilot's flying experience…"
  and many other factors.
  What strikes me very strongly is that the whole onus is put on the operator to see that the pilot is sufficiently experienced and sufficiently conversant with the route. Is the Minister satisfied that the regulations in that Order have proved right and sufficient? No doubt we shall be told that if an operator persistently fails in this obligation he may have his licence withdrawn from him. But, after all, that would be after the fact and perhaps after many lives had been lost. I cannot feel very satisfied with the Order as it now stands.
  Nor is it merely a question of route training as such. It is a question of the whole status and position of the pilots in regard to their employers, the operators. If the House will forgive me, I would like to read what I think that hon. Members will regard as a remarkable letter which I have received on this matter:
  "Dear Mr. Strachey,
  I write to inform you of an incident which illustrates the highly undesirable pressures

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  under which pilots of some independent air companies may be called upon to work. Returning in October from a holiday in Greece, our pilot, after an abortive attempt to get to Perpignan in bad weather, night-stopped at Pisa on the same night that the Derby Aviation Dakota was lost in that area. An R.A.F. aircraft, homeward bound from Malta, was also delayed in Pisa the same night for the same reason. Appreciating that our captain's decision to delay would not be financially popular with his company, on arrival in London next day I wrote to them praising his good judgment and suggesting that this was just the way for a small independent to earn a good reputation. I was, therefore, shocked to learn a few days later that he had been sacked."
  The letter goes on:
  "The crux of the problem is this. Independent air operators have a useful rôle to play in developing the all-in air holiday."
  We all agree with that.
  "In season, however, independent operators commit their aircraft and crews to the maximum extent. A delayed aircraft may mean not only that no aircraft is available for the next trip, but, even if an aircraft is available, a properly rested crew may not be."
  The letter ends:
  "I can, of course, give you names and fuller details concerning this incident at your convenience.
  Yours sincerely,
  A. D. G. James, Wing Commander."
  I can, of course, give the letter to the Minister.
  I quote the letter because it is a striking and shocking letter and seems to bring out this issue of whether a safety Order, which places the obligation on the operator to satisfy himself of the experience and competence of the pilot, is really good enough.
  To be specific, ought not this responsibility to ensure the adequate route checking and general competence and experience of the pilot be placed on the Minister and his inspectorate and not on the operator? Ought it not to be the Minister's responsibility to insist on a meticulous standard of route checking and route training for charter flights, and, in particular, to ensure the protection of the pilots in cases such as that which I have just quoted?
  It seems fatal to the future of aviation and to the independent operators themselves that any incident of that sort should ever occur again. I am told that the kind of regulations I am suggesting—and it is for the Minister to say how they could
  1556
  be worked out in detail—would be very expensive for the charter operators, and I can believe that they would be. But can we consider that when the safety of the travelling public is involved?
  Mr. Frank Bowles Mr. Frank Bowles (Nuneaton) rose—
  Mr. Stephen McAdden Mr. Stephen McAdden (Southend, East) rose—
  Mr. Speaker: The right hon. Member for Dundee, West (Mr. Strachey) cannot give way to two hon. Members simultaneously.
  Mr. Bowles: Can my right hon. Friend give the name of this firm, because it is very important that the public should know it?
  Mr. Strachey: The firm is called Trad-Air and it has now gone into liquidation so that we shall do no damage to the particular firm in question.
  Mr. McAdden: The firm has not gone into liquidation, so that statement is definitely wrong. The right hon. Gentleman can take that from me, because this firm operates from Southend Airport, which I know fairly well. Will he be good enough to tell the House why the pilot was sacked?
  Mr. Strachey: I am sorry to hear that the firm is still operating.
  Mr. McAdden: It is a first-class firm, with an excellent safety record.
  Mr. Strachey: What has happened here does not suggest to me that it is a first-class firm. It suggests just the contrary. The reason why the pilot was sacked is only too obvious from this letter.
  Mr. McAdden: This is a matter of some importance. I had no intention of interrupting the right hon. Gentleman, but he is making allegations against the company, which is not here to defend itself, and at least he should have made some inquiries from the company about why the pilot was sacked, so that he might have been able to inform the House. The pilot might have been sacked for all sorts of reasons.
  Mr. Strachey: The company has certainly found a defender in the House of Commons. It is the opinion, and the implication is perfectly clear, of my informant.
  Mr. John Eden Mr. John Eden (Bournemouth, West) rose—
  Mr. Strachey: I cannot give way again. The implication is perfectly clear from Wing Commander James. He had no doubt whatever about why the pilot was sacked. He is a most experienced man and a pilot himself and a wing commander.
  Mr. F. A. Burden: He need not be a pilot merely because he is a wing commander.
  Mr. Strachey: But he is an ex-pilot and he was perfectly clear about the reasons for the pilot being sacked.
  Mr. McAdden: Not true.
  Mr. Strachey: He goes on in a portion of this letter which I did not read to say:
  "I offered my services to the British Airline Pilots' Association as a witness to support any action they might propose on behalf of the pilot concerned. But before any appeal could be heard the company placed itself in the hands of the Official Receiver."
  There is no doubt at all about what the implication is.
  Several Hon. Members Several Hon. Members rose—
  Mr. Speaker: Order. If hon. Members have counterpoints to make, their prospects of being able to catch my eye might depend on the amount of interruption and time consumed at this stage.
  Mr. Strachey: This is the issue which is raised not only by the letter, but by the accidents which have had a profound effect on the public and caused profound concern about charter flying. I am trying to make suggestions to the Minister for some sort of remedy for this state of things. He may have a better suggestion to make, but I am suggesting that the onus, put by the regulations on the operators, should be transferred to the Minister.
  I do not believe that anything which tightens up safety regulations and improves the record of safety is against the interests of the independent operators themselves. It is very much in their interests and it seems incontestable, from this letter and from other evidence which we have all received and from the actual accidents, that something ought to be
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  done and that some measures ought to be taken about charter flying. They will apply to the Corporations, which, of course, engage in charter flying, as well as to the independents.
  It is not sufficient to say that regulations are the same for charter flying as for independents. That is not the issue. Are they adequate in both cases? The Minister ought to say what he has in mind about this, and what proposals he has for tightening the safety regulations and improving the whole status of the Ministry and its ability to ensure the safety of the travelling public.
  I come now to my second subject, the working, of the Civil Aviation (Licensing) Act, 1960, on the Corporations, their strength, and their ability to carry the flag of this country in the face of extremely severe competition and the fierce air race on all their international routes. Reluctantly, we on this side were unable to write certain words into that Act. I shall deal with that aspect in a minute. Since the passing of the Act, the Air Transport Licensing Board, in its first major hearing, that of the Cunard Eagle Company, granted a licence to that company on the vital North Atlantic route. As we have said on several occasions, the granting of that licence was a realisation of the worst fears expressed by my right hon. and hon. Friends when the Bill was before the House.
  What has happened now? The decision of the Minister, which was announced two days ago, and on which we sincerely congratulate him, has reversed that decision and allowed the appeal of the B.O.A.C. In the light of those two decisions, what is to be the future pattern of British aviation? Unless some coherent doctrine, embodied in some clear terms of reference to the Air Licensing Board, can be evolved, the future of British aviation and its operation will be clouded in great uncertainty, to the prejudice of British aviation.
  Mr. Leslie Hale: And the aircraft manufacturing industries.
  Mr. Strachey: Yes.
  After all, as the then Minister of Aviation said, we are dealing with the whole question when we deal with decisions of the Board and appeals from it. During

  1559
  the Second Reading debate on the Bill, he said:
  "The future pattern of British aviation will emerge progressively from the decisions of the Board and from the results of appeals to the Minister. A kind of case law will gradually be built up."
  What kind of case law is being built up? Both the Corporations and the independents must know how they stand on this matter. They have to make enormous financial commitments for aircraft—in the case of the B.O.A.C. running into hundreds of millions of pounds—and if the case law which is built up is chaotic, and, indeed, incomprehensible, great damage will be done.
  To do justice to the Board, it showed quite clearly what its doctrine was in its first decision of Cunard Eagle. To put it briefly, it was that if and when the traffic on a route became really heavy, and the route therefore became really lucrative, a part of that traffic, or a part of the British share of the traffic—because that is what it came to—was to be sliced off from the Corporations and given to an independent. This was to be done even when it meant a serious loss to the Corporations, because in its decision in the Cunard Eagle case it said:
  "…there will be diversion, and probably 'material diversion', from B.O.A.C."
  This was to be done even when the Corporation in question had, as it had in this case, entered into heavy commitments for aircraft to cater for the routes in question.
  Paragraph 24 of the Board's decision says:
  "We accept the evidence of the Corporation that they have recently entered into financial commitments, notably in regard to aircraft purchases, designed to cater for all the traffic which they might reasonably have expected to carry on this and on all their other routes over the next five or six years. We do not regard this as precluding the advent of a second United Kingdom operator on the United States East Coast route as now licensed."
  As it turned out, the evidence against that decision was so overwhelming that on appeal it had to be reversed, and, as I read the Minister's decision, it was reversed on three principal grounds. First, that there might not be enough traffic after all for the B.O.A.C. with its massive order of 45 VC10s and Super-10s. Secondly, it amply catered for all
  1560
  the traffic, all the British share of that traffic, which could be expected to be received, and, thirdly, there was very little evidence that Cunard Eagle would attract any foreign traffic which would not have been attracted by the B.O.A.C., and, therefore, everything that Cunard-Eagle got would be a subtraction from the B.O.A.C.
  Those were certainly good and adequate reasons for allowing the appeal, but in what position has the Board been left? What guidance has it received about its future decisions, for example, in extremely important cases such as the numerous applications before it now from independent operators to fly on routes at present served by the B.E.A. in Europe?
  The decision of the Board was, I think, to try to work out a kind of doctrine for its own guidance. I think that it was a disastrous doctrine, but it was comprehensible. Its rejection of Cunard Eagle's application for the traffic in the mid-West route of the United States was in keeping with it. The Board said that it rejected this application because the traffic was not yet sufficiently dense, but that if it became sufficiently dense it would grant a licence on that route, too.
  The Board was beginning to lay down in its case law that however fierce the foreign competition which the Corporations faced, and however much had been their financial commitments to cater for all the traffic they could expect to get, on these dense and lucrative lines a substantial slice was to be cut off and given to an independent operator who applied for a licence.
  If that was the doctrine of the Board, it was a sharp repudiation of the assurance which the then Minister of Aviation gave us during the Second Reading debate, when he said:
  "They"—
  that is, the operators—
  "naturally wish to be assured that, having built up custom on a particular route, they will be given some reasonable protection against interlopers who seek to reap where others have sown."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 2nd March, 1960; Vol. 618, c. 1231–3.]
  But, in fact, the doctrine being worked out by the Board was that as soon as there was a nice crop anywhere some part of it was to be taken away and given to someone else.

  1561
  We therefore ask the Minister to follow up his admirable allowance of the B.O.A.C. appeal in this matter with a clear-cut assurance that he does not accept the doctrine—or the case law, if that term is preferred—which the Board appeared to be building up by its first Cunard Eagle decision. When he does that he must realise that British aviation in general, and the Corporations in particular, simply cannot get on with their job until they know what is the doctrine of the Government on this matter. I have some sympathy with the Board. It was placed in an almost impossible position by the equivocation—I do not think that I can use a less strong word—of the language of the Act and of the Minister's statement about it when it was passing through the House.
  It has now seen that its interpretation—whether it was right or wrong—of the Government's intentions will not do, and a vacuum is left in which it has no guidance as to the shape of the decisions which it has to make. That all comes from the obstinate refusal of the then Minister of Aviation to write into the Act words of the kind suggested by my right hon. Friend the Member for Vauxhall (Mr. Strauss), my hon. Friend the Member for Stockton-on-Tees (Mr. Chetwynd) and many others, to the effect that the Board was not to allow a material deviation from the traffic of the Corporations.
  Where do we go from here, if the Board is left with no good guidance as to what shall be the general policy on the vital question of the licensing of independents? I imagine that we shall he asked by hon. Members opposite whether we are against all competition in aviation. My answer is, "No." In principle, in aviation as in other matters, the conception of some private competition, and some private profit-making firms operating alongside the publicly-owned Corporations, is quite an attractive one. I can imagine circumstances in which we should have no objection to that principle.
  For example, I can see a case for further licensing of independent private operators on the internal routes. Many are already operating. Other things being equal, and if the necessary conditions were satisfied, there might be a
  1562
  case for licensing an independent who took the view that he could carry us from London to Glasgow cheaper and better than could B.E.A. But if permission to do so is given, that independent operator must operate some of the uneconomic lines in Scotland and elsewhere which B.E.A. operates as a public service today. If those conditions and others were satisfied there might at any rate be some case for allowing competition on the internal lines.
  Mr. John Rankin: Does my right hon. Friend accept the view that there is a reason for some discontent on my part about what he is saying? He has not indicated that the aircraft which will be in competition will be the same type as is operated by B.E.A., or that the private operator will provide the same kind of facilities as those provided by B.E.A.
  Mr. Strachey: Of course, he would have to. I cannot see that that is necessarily a reason for not allowing him to try. If an independent operator believed that he could carry us cheaper and better than B.E.A. from London to Glasgow I do not see why he should not do so. He would certainly be benefiting tremendously from the work that B.E.A. has put into the development of that route, but at any rate there would be a much better case for allowing him to do so on the internal lines than on the external ones, and it is with the overseas lines that we have to deal.
  The Minister said that on those lines the Corporations face fierce competition from foreign rivals. In those circumstances I can see no case for the licensing of new independent operators. If the effect is that this country, as it were, has two weak entries in the competition instead of one strong one, it cannot make sense.
  What, then, should be the revised terms of reference of the Licensing Board? There must surely be some revision of them. Should not they be to the effect that the new operators should not be given licenses on routes where the Corporations can show that they are already facing fierce competition, and are making fully adequate efforts to cater for their present share of the traffic and any foreseeable future share, in their delivery of aircraft? Such terms of

  1563
  reference would leave very large spheres of operation open to independent operators. The main part of the charter services would be open. Some internal services are already open, and there may be some oversea services in which the Corporations, for one reason or another, do not wish to operate, or are not fully catering for all the traffic.
  I predict that unless simple and comprehensive terms of reference are given to the Board, if necessary by means of enabling legislation, the Board will founder, as it has undoubtedly and incontrovertibly foundered up to now. Contradictory decisions and disallowances on appeal will have to be made. There is no sense in the terms of reference of the Board today.
  That brings me to the third thing that I wanted to speak of—the effect of all this on the British aircraft industry. There is no need for me to dilate upon the state of the industry today. Many of my hon. Friends will wish to do so. But it is in a serious condition. Factories are closing down, or threatened with closing down, in Portsmouth, Gloucester, Chester and many other places, and we must feel great anxiety about the industry. With the industry in this very precarious condition, what will be the effect of the uncertainties that I have described, which themselves have been created by the uncertainties of Government policy?
  Large sums of public money are involved. The B.O.A.C. order for VC10s and Super-10s amounts to£151 million. This order was in question and is in question in the Cunard Eagle case. Then there is the order of B.E.A. for 24 Tridents, which it would like to extend but which it is unable to extend because of uncertainty whether many of its routes are being taken from it.
  We may be told, of course, that these orders will be made up to the industry by the orders from the private operators if they receive licences. But I submit that the industry would be most ill-advised to forgo the "bird in the hand" of the Corporations' orders for the "bird in the bush" of possible orders from independent operators.
  Sir A. V. Harvey: Does the right hon. Gentleman appreciate that he is doing a great disservice to at least one section
  1564
  of the industry, British United Airways, which has placed an order for six DC111s, as a result of which a number were sold to an American aircraft company off the drawing board?
  Mr. Strachey: Of course there were orders from the independents, but it seems to me that the basis of the industry's work on the civil side—we are, of course, talking about the civil side—is the orders from the Corporations, and that no independent could possibly pioneer an aircraft in the way in which B.O.A.C. pioneered the DC10 and the super 10 by a massive order off the drawing board. There is no substitute for that.
  Mr. Hale: What about the uncertainty of the Government over Transport Command? They seem to have no idea of what its needs will be. Everyone knows that Transport Command is under-equipped and that people are threatened with the loss of their jobs while the Government dither about, considering selective service or something of that kind.
  Mr. Strachey: Yes, I entirely agree.
  I wish to say a word about the longer-term future of the industry, which brings us to the interesting and difficult question of a supersonic air liner. I do not wish to exaggerate the importance of a supersonic airliner in terms of immediate employment in the industry. I appreciate that for many years there would not be very much work on it. I appreciate that the whole civil side of the industry is much less than the military side. I also appreciate that the short-haul aircraft, the Trident and the 111 types, may be more important in terms of employment given. Nevertheless, I cannot help feeling that in the long-term interests of the industry and, indeed, of the nation the question of a supersonic airliner is very important.
  Let us look at the matter from the other angle. Let us consider the position which will arise in perhaps fifteen to twenty years' time if this country is unable to produce or take part in the production of a supersonic airliner. I do not for a moment pretend to be a technician, but I share a feeling, which I think is widespread, that in, say, twenty years' time, long-distance air travel will be undertaken at supersonic speeds and

  1565
  the Corporation concerned, B.O.A.C., if we produce no liner of this type, would have to order and operate entirely foreign-built liners, either French, American or Russian.
  This seems to me a serious consideration. No doubt our aircraft industry could go on producing short-haul aircraft, and aircraft of other sorts, and it might do fairly well. But that strikes me as being similar to what would have been the position if, in 1900, the British shipbuilding industry had decided to produce cargo boats and smaller craft of all sorts, but gave up building big liners and bigger ships and resigned itself to having them built in German, American, French and Japanese yards. I cannot help feeling that the future of an industry which had to do that would not be very bright.
  Surely, from the long-term point of view, this is a matter of great national importance. No doubt the Minister will say that it does not solve the problem, arising here and now, of how to pay for the development of a supersonic airliner without starving the industry in respect of other developments which may be of equal importance. I recognise that it is a very big problem and one which, in certain circumstances, might be insoluble.
  Mr. Shepherd: Will the right hon. Gentleman tell the House whether he is now referring to the possibility of a Mach 3 supersonic aircraft or a Mach 1·5? This is really important.
  Mr. Strachey: In certain circumstances it might be insoluble. For that reason, we welcome these negotiations, which I know are incomplete, between B.O.A.C. and that quite remarkable French example of public enterprise Sud-Aviation, for the general development of a supersonic liner. I recognise that this would be the Mach 2·2 for smaller and slower supersonic speeds—if one may use such a term. I realise that there are those difficulties. I realise the question of whether the range would be sufficient to cross the Atlantic is still in issue and I should think that almost indispensable from our point of view. If these problems could be solved hon. Members on this side of the House regard a development of that sort as of very great importance.
  1566
  We ask the Minister for his views on this and the whole future of the British aviation industry. What size does he envisage for this industry? Is he content to let it contract to a half or to a quarter of its present size, or to what? I should regard any such prospect as that with the utmost dismay. It seems to me that an adequate aviation industry is of very great importance for this country.
  Together with the size of the industry, is the question of its shape, its organisation and constitution. As someone coming fresh to the subject as I have done during the last year, I feel bound to say that the organisation of the industry, its constitution, its control and its ownership still seems very irrational and merits much further consideration. I do not know, and I do not pretend to know, exactly what it should be, but an industry which is really entirely dependent on public money, directly or indirectly, for development, except for its exports, is not in a rational state and a much greater amount of public participation of one form or another—control or ownership, or a combination of the two—seems to me the only logical course which could be taken.
  We have three things to ask the Minister. First, on the safety issue, is he satisfied with the present Order? Is he satisfied with the present position, because I think that it can be said that none of us on this side of the House is satisfied, and the public outside is very far from satisfied, with safety regulations today. Secondly, when will he give comprehensible and coherent terms of reference to the Air Licensing Board, which, obviously, is floundering in total uncertainty today? That uncertainty is fatal for the aviation industry and for the production side of the industry. Thirdly, what are his proposals for what I would almost call a rescue operation? Nothing much less than that is needed now for the British aviation industry. We very much want satisfaction on all these issues.
  4.41 p.m.
  The Minister of Aviation (Mr. Peter Thorneycroft): I welcome the opportunity of this debate on aviation matters. I shall try to deal with the three points which the right hon. Member for Dundee, West (Mr. Strachey) made in his extremely interesting speech.

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  The aircraft industry is a very curious industry. It is a mixture of science, technology and commerce. As the right hon. Gentleman was saying towards the end of his speech, it is a very interesting mixture of public and private enterprise in almost every field. The airports, for example—which the right hon. Gentleman did not mention—are almost by historical accident owned by the State, yet it is our purpose and policy to put some of them under an independent authority, others under municipal ownership and to keep air traffic control under the Government. The operators are partly public operators and partly private companies. As the right hon. Member spoke quite a lot about their relationships, so shall I.
  In the manufacture there is a nationalised sector and, curiously, it is at the centre. It is the central, highly specialised research establishments such as the Royal Aircraft Establishment, at Farnborough, and the Royal Radar Establishment, at Malvern, both of which have a world-wide reputation of which we can be extremely proud. Surrounding is a wider sector in which production decisions are made and industrial risks taken, although those risks are sometimes shared with the Government. It is possible to fault any Government or the rôle of any Government in industry, but I think that we can be proud of this one as a good example of public and private endeavour.
  I am not saying that criticism cannot be made, but we have a proud record. We have aircraft like the Canberra, the Hunter, the Viscount and the Argosy, which have done very well for this country. We are looking forward to the success of aircraft like the BAC 111 and the Trident. It is true to say that of all the jet and turbo-prop aircraft flying or on order, two out of three are carrying British engines. This is not a record of which to be ashamed.
  If I may say so to the right hon. Member, today my thoughts are much less turned to whether this is an appropriate industry to be nationalised or not nationalised than, much more pertinently, to how much it should be internationalised. This is the question facing us at present. There are very great advantages in sharing the costs of development and
  1568
  in widening the market. Since I have been Minister I have used a great deal of my time in urging this on the industry. It needed little urging, because the industry obviously sees it very clearly for itself.
  Mr. Strachey: The right hon. Gentleman will agree that Sud Aviation, for example, shows that there is no conflict between international integration and co-operation and public ownership.
  Mr. Thorneycroft: I am not being at all dogmatic. I am merely saying that the first interest in my mind is not the old archaic issue of whether we should have public or private ownership in this country, but whether we can have an international industry so that we can go forward together with exciting projects and find a really wide market for what we produce. We have some good examples in the Hawker P1127, where we are seeking agreement with the Germans, and the Rolls-Royce RB162 engine developed by the French, the Germans and ourselves. I am hoping that agreement will be reached between B.E.A. and Sabena for helicopter services.
  There is an attempt to secure agreement—and we have received agreement on the convention which is now before the Governments—on a satellite launcher built, produced and developed on a European basis. There are the arrangements which the Hawker Aircraft Company has made. Only last night, as announced in this morning's newspapers, there was the statement on the steps which the British Aircraft Corporation has taken to link up with four different countries in Europe. All these projects are surely on the right lines.
  We see the same thing with air traffic control and the Bill on Eurocontrol which is at present before the House. To take up a point made by the right hon. Member, if we are to build a supersonic airliner there is something to be said for building so expensive a project for so limited a market on a co-operative basis. I have seen the report in today's newspapers about the intentions of the French Government in regard to the medium-range project. My information is that this does not indicate a firm decision to build a specific type of aircraft, but that financial provision has

  1569
  been made in principle for the work that may be taken on for such a project in the next year or two. I am assured that this is entirely without prejudice to the outcome of the current discussions taking place between the two countries about possibilities of collaboration on a joint project on the basis of sharing the cost between the two countries.
  All these are possibilities. They are rather exciting possibilities, but they are more within the grasp of a group of nations than the grasp of a single nation. The policy of Her Majesty's Government was announced on 15th February, 1960, by my predecessor and it stands today. It was that the Government should stand behind a reorganised industry—and reorganised it certainly has been. It has been reorganised into two fixed wing groups, one helicopter group and two engine groups. These amalgamations are not painless. When one brings firms together in that way inevitably one does not carry them all on exactly as they were run before. It inevitably flows from decisions of the kind that one pools design staffs at the centre. At the centre one concentrates production within areas where the load was rather thin and try to get a proper load into other factories. These are painful decisions which have to be taken under public ownership or private ownership. We are seeing the results of these amalgamations coming forward now.
  Mr. John Diamond: Since the Minister has referred to the painful decisions flowing from the policy statement made many months ago, will he say what preparation was made by the Government for workers whom it was known would be thrown out of work as a result of this policy?
  Mr. Thorneycroft: That is a perfectly fair question. I am in close touch both with the Ministry of Labour and the Board of Trade in an endeavour to see that wherever possible alternative work is available or factories are relet to others. All the steps we can take in that way, I agree entirely with the hon. Member, should undoubtedly be taken, but it is no good pretending that we can have a vast reorganisation of an industry of this character without having
  1570
  some effects similar to those taking place at present. We must face the facts.
  Mrs. Eirene White: Can the Minister tell us what truth there is in the report which appeared in the Daily Express earlier this week? It said:
  "The Government has decided to stage a 'rescue operation' for some sections of Britain's aircraft industry. It has been warned that if new orders are not placed soon the industry's labour force will have to be cut by a third."
  Then the report gives details of various aircraft for which orders are said to be under consideration.
  Mr. Thorneycroft: I should always hesitate to say what truth there was in a report in the Daily Express. If the hon. Lady will listen to the rest of my speech she will hear what our plans are.
  Support has been given, or will be given, to such projects as the VC10, the BAC111, the Rotodyne, the Trident, and the Spey engine. Others are under consideration. Assistance has been provided up to now at about£7¼million a year. The basis is shared risk between the Government and the industry; that is to say, we try to put in money only where the industry is putting in money. There are obvious and sensible reasons for this. The attempt is to harmonise the military and civil production—that is, to get where we can development which serves both. We try, too, to share this work on an international basis. I believe that this is a proper foundation upon which to go forward with the industry at present.
  Mr. George Chetwynd: There was a little confusion at Question Time on Monday about the£7¼million. May I take it now that this sum refers only to civil projects and excludes military projects, or does it refer to both?
  Mr. Thorneycroft: This is the aid which goes in on the civil project side.
  I will now deal more closely with the terms of the Motion. It is concerned principally with a fairly narrow but important issue concerning a group of topics on the record of the Corporations and the effects of the Civil Aviation (Licensing) Act. I wish to say a few words about the relationship between my Department and the Corporations, the prospects of the Corporations, and the

  1571
  policy of the Act. We can be very proud of the efforts which the Corporations have made. I certainly appreciate their difficulties in a tough and highly competitive world. There is no monopoly for B.E.A. or B.O.A.C. on the international air routes. Whatever the future may hold, at this moment of time there are more seats than passengers.
  An important policy decision with regard to nationalised industries was taken fairly recently by the Government. This refers to the Corporations, also. It is to set down and agree with them targets of profitability. These targets have to be set. I am working out with the two Corporations targets we can all agree upon as reasonable in the circumstances. If we say to the Corporations that they must run on a profitable basis and make both ends meet, we must also recognise the implications of this and recognise and respect, as I knew the House does, some of the problems which they face. I am well aware both of their efforts in the past and of their problems in the future.
  This has been a thoroughly bad year for civil aviation. The Corporations have suffered. I do not think that they have suffered worse than comparable competitors. They may have done better than some, but they have suffered. I understand that B.E.A. has a chance of breaking even after paying interest on capital. In this financial year it will be in balance only because it has been able to accumulate more than£2 million against the introduction of new aircraft. This performance, against a record of seven consecutive years of profit, is some credit to the Corporation and is a powerful testimony to the general problems affecting international aviation at present.
  B.O.A.C.'s present position is proportionately much more serious. It has suffered the same maladies in 1961 as B.E.A. and others, but it started from a far less healthy point of departure, namely, an accumulated deficit of about£15 million. It expects a loss of about£10 million this year.
  Sir A. V. Harvey: Ten?
  Mr. Thorneycroft: Yes, ten. This will be after payment of interest on capital.
  This is a situation which simply cannot be ignored. This is due partly to trading
  1572
  losses ascribable to subsidiaries and associates, partly to capital losses directly or indirectly attributable to the re-equipment problems following the disasters to the Comet I, partly, alas, to an unfortunate strike which hit the Corporation very hard indeed, and partly and importantly due to problems of traffic recession and over-capacity. B.O.A.C. traffic to North America is about half its effort, and this traffic stood almost still during the summer months.
  B.O.A.C.'s prime difficulty this year was on the North Atlantic. It is no reflection on the Corporation that this was so. There are no completely reliable figures for what other airlines do, but there is good reason to believe that comparable airlines have suffered on that route as much as B.O.A.C. I am confident that even the airlines themselves are not prepared to say with complete certainty what will happen in this field next year or the year after.
  I am equally confident that the damaging combination of excess capacity and diminished traffic cannot be overcome quickly. B.O.A.C. and other airlines whose commercial and financial strength on the North Atlantic depends on these factors will have a very difficult time next year. It may take some firm, but I should not like to specify what time, before we reverse the trends. On the other hand, I am equally confident that in the longer term the upward trend will be resumed.
  This brings me to the Civil Aviation (Licensing) Act, 1960. It is worth while recollecting the purpose of Section 1, which does not enjoin us to have particular regard to the public Corporations or the independents. It enjoins us to pay attention to the interests of British civil aviation. This must constantly be borne in mind.
  The right hon. Member asked me whether I could lay down some rules so that everybody would know where they are. He knows that this is far too complicated a subject, with far too many ramifications, to be able to do anything of the kind. If we could do it, we should have done it in the Licensing Act. It is because we could not do it that we set out in Section 2 (2) a whole list of considerations to which we should have regard.

  1573
  We set up a machinery—a hearing by a Board, an appeal to a Commissioner, and a decision by the Minister. If we had meant that the Board's decision was to be final in every case, we should not have appointed a Commissioner. We should not have said anything about a decision by the Minister. We should have simply left it to the Board. I dare say that in many ways the Minister would find himself in a much easier situation if this were so, but it is not what the Act says. The Act lays down the considerations which are to be borne in mind and specifies the people who must consider them.
  The Act has one curious feature. It gives the Minister almost a dual rôle. He is the final court of appeal, but the Act also leaves him the task of seeking to negotiate rights to pick up traffic in foreign territories. It is not enough to have a licence. That is only the beginning of the story. Even if someone has a licence, the Minister has to negotiate the right to pick up traffic on the other side.
  A licence does not give this right. The Minister has to consider very carefully how he will negotiate, and what price he will have to pay. Nevertheless, the Act supposed, what I still believe to be entirely true, that the independents have an important contribution to make to the advance of British civil aviation, and it is the aim to give them equality of status in applying for licences.
  The Act swept away the old statutory barriers whereby it was impossible for an independent operator even to apply for a route reserved to the Corporations, but it was not the intention of the Act to promote competition between British carriers for its own sake. What was recognised was that in some cases competition would be a good thing. I think that the decisions of the Board have reflected the new liberality and, certainly, the new freedom of application. For example, the old Air Transport Advisory Council last year rejected 48 per cent. of the applications made by the independent airlines. This year, of the cases so far decided, the Board has rejected only 17 per cent. Further, of the 850 cases that have been before it, there have been only four appeals; two decisions have been upheld, one has been
  1574
  reversed and the fourth has not yet been heard.
  Just a word, now, about the Cunard Eagle case itself. Hon. Members probably have read the letter of decision, and I think that it would be their opinion that we should not set ourselves up as a sort of court of appeal but, as an exception, one might, as it is one of the first and most important cases, say a few words about it.
  The facts are that the Board decided for Cunard Eagle, the appeal commissioner for B.O.A.C., and I decided to uphold the Commissioner. Many considerations were involved, and no one of them was decisive. I have to try to take a balanced view of them all. In the first place, would say that the decision or appeal in no way implies the slightest loss of confidence in the Air Transport Licensing Board—far from it. I have a very deep respect for that Board and for its chairman, who has won the confidence of all sides of industry, public and private. He certainly has mine. We are very fortunate to have secured the services of Professor Jack in that very exacting rôle.
  The Act, however, never presumed that the Board, the Commissioner and the Minister must in all cases agree. If it had so assumed, it would not have laid down the procedures that are laid down—
  Mr. Strachey: While appreciating, as is my view, that it is not the Board's fault by any means, it is not enough for the Minister to say that the Board has the confidence of all those who appear before it when B.U.A. has just withdrawn all its applications because it alleges, I think wrongly, that the whole proceeding is a farce.
  Mr. Thorneycroft: If the right hon. Gentleman will allow me to do so, I shall come to that in a moment.
  In this case it was common ground that B.O.A.C. had the capacity to carry the traffic. This is an important factor, but it is not the only one. If it were the only factor, I think that the Board would have been right in thinking that it would tend to freeze the position. I rather share the Board's view about that if we take that as the only factor.
  I have to take account of the whole position—the gross over-capacity on the

  1575
  route; the evidence that B.O.A.C., so far from expanding its air capacity, is contemplating—indeed, is intending—to cut its capacity on the North Atlantic this year; the weakening market; the trading position of the present operators; the probable effects of international negotiation of traffic rights, and the likely price that we may have to pay for them. I have to weigh all these things well and fairly, and judge the situation as best I can.
  My decision on this application at this moment is to uphold the appeal; it does not apply to another application by Cunard Eagle or, still less, to other applications now pending. I emphasise that it would be quite wrong to assume that all the complex considerations applying to this case would necessarily apply to some quite different case. This decision does not freeze the pattern of air traffic as it is at present, and anyone who assumed that it did would be very wide of the mark. The Cunard Eagle case must be considered on its particular merits—
  Mr. Rankin: Would not the Minister agree that the case will leave the position even more uncertain than it is at present?
  Mr. Thorneycroft: The one thing that is absolutely certain is that it is certain. I have made the decision. There are other ways in which it could be dealt with, but I think it better to make a decision so that people know where they are, although others may or may not agree with it.
  I pass to the very important question of safety, to which the right hon. Gentleman referred. We debated this aspect in some detail recently, and I shall not repeat all that was then said. There is no monopoly of concern at the danger of air accidents, but we have to get those accidents in perspective. Very many millions of miles are flown without disaster. I shall not bandy statistics with the right hon. Gentleman—there are so many quoted at present—but do not let us over-simplify the causes.
  It is not a question of this company or that, or of private or public ownership. Some of the most famous airlines in the world have had some of the most disastrous accidents; some with the best safety records have suddenly run into trouble—and some of the smallest air
  1576
  lines can show years of safe operation. It is not possible to generalise this painful story, or to paint the picture with too broad a brush.
  We must lay down and enforce safety standards, and they must be the same for corporations and independents. We must administer the air operators certificate. The right hon. Gentleman asked where the responsibility lay, and I shall look at what he said. I would never be dogmatic about air safety, and say that there are no better methods. We are all learning in this business, and we try to learn all the lessons we can.
  At this moment, I would say that there are some advantages in placing the responsibility fairly and squarely on the shoulders of the man running the company. He has a very great responsibility. That is where it is at the moment—and it is, of course, the pilot's responsibility, when he takes off, to judge whether weather conditions are safe. I make no comment on the case quoted by the right hon. Gentleman now, but perhaps he will let me have the details. I know that he would not expect me to comment without looking at the facts of the case.
  We must be satisfied with the administration of the air pilots certificate. We must be satisfied with the standards of pilot training. Above all, we must press on with research and development in navigational equipment and procedures. We must do this on a basis in which all nations pool their best information. We must share our knowledge. There is a Bill before the House placing some of this on a more international basis.
  I would urge—the right hon. Gentleman did not do it, and it is no reflection on him—that people hesitate before they attack pilots. It is so easy after an accident, flying in broad daylight—I did it myself over Stavanger—when one can see all the instruments and the airport, to wonder how it could happen. It is not quite the same when one is flying in thick weather conditions—and who will ever know whether something was not working properly at the time? We are learning. We have these inquiries, which are extremely well done, but do not let us prejudge these things and, above all, do not let us judge too harshly men no longer here to defend themselves—
  Mr. Burden: Would not my right hon. Friend also agree that with the very narrow margins allowed for human error today as a result of the high speed of aircraft, the care with which every possible safety measure connected with the carrying of passengers by air is incorporated is clearly evident? Considering the very few accidents that take place, can we not say that in this matter the ingenuity of the aircraft industry and everyone connected with it is being constantly exercised to ensure still greater safety?
  Mr. Thorneycroft: That is fair enough. We all pay tribute to these men, who conduct a fantastically difficult operation, especially considering the speeds at which aircraft are travelling. At the same time, we must not be complacent. We must be planning now not for the situation in the next year, but for ten years ahead, when aircraft will be moving even faster. Whatever we do—whether we like it or not—supersonic transports will go through the sound barrier and we have now to be doing the research and development to devise the most sophisticated equipment necessary for aircraft of that kind, at that height and at those speeds.
  I believe that in all these matters we must make it a common cause between one country and another because at these speeds national frontiers mean little. We welcomed the opportunity for discussion on these issues and we will listen with the greatest of interest to any suggestions that are made. I have read the terms of the Amendment. It is an admirable one with which to initiate a debate, but I would have thought that, in the circumstances, hon. Members opposite would not wish to press it to a Division.
  5.11 p.m.
  Mr. Roy Mason: The Minister has particularly dealt with the state of the industry and its fears for the future, and a number of my hon. Friends who are more conversant with these topics will deal more effectively with them. I was pleased to hear the right hon. Gentleman's comments about B.E.A. and B.O.A.C. not having a monopoly. I was disgusted to see an editorial in the Daily Mail this morning stating frankly that they are monopolies. This is an absurd situation; that the public Press
  1578
  is misleading people in this way. The Press knows well that B.E.A. and B.O.A.C. are in fierce competition with many aircraft firms abroad, and to talk about giving some of the independent airlines a service alongside B.O.A.C. and B.E.A. is merely making is easier for the overseas airlines to compete more successfully with us.
  It is my intention today not to dwell on these matters, but to deal mainly with the subject of air safety. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will not mind my dealing primarily with this matter, for I feel strongly about it and, while I do not wish to be an alarmist, there is reason for concern and need for the right hon. Gentleman to do something more regarding the future of aircraft accidents. It is thus my intention to highlight the deficiencies in the Government's inspectorate and to consider the general accident record.
  In doing this, I must relate most of my comments on accidents to the independent airlines, and particularly to their charter services and inclusive tours. I urge the right hon. Gentleman to take note of the Civil Aviation (Licensing) Act, 1960, which in Section 2 (2) states:
  "…the Board shall consider in particular—
  (a) whether they are satisfied that, having regard in particular to his experience and financial resources and, subject to subsection (4) of this section, to his ability to provide satisfactory equipment, organisation and staffing arrangements, and having regard also to any contravention in respect of aircraft operated by him of the provisions of section one of this Act, the applicant is competent, and a fit and proper person, to operate aircraft for the purposes for which he seeks an air service licence;"
  Section 1 states that the operator will be authorised to receive a licence only if he can operate with a measure of safety. But Section 2 (4) wipes out completely the first half of Section 2 (2), because it says:
  "For the purposes of paragraph (a) of subsection (2) of this section, the Board shall not consider the matters in respect of which an air operator's certificate is required that is to say, the competence of the applicant to secure that aircraft operated by him will be operated safely."
  Thus the Act specifically informs the Board—which has subsequently been set up and has issued its first report—that it has no power whatever to inquire into

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  the real operations of the independent airline that has its operating certificate.
  What perturbs me a great deal is that Section 1 is not strong enough to demand that the independent airline which has received its certificate shall operate with the maximum safety. The Air Transport Licensing Board's first report shows that the Board is overwhelmed with applications and can only pay a cursory glance at the financial status of the air companies. That is all.
  My contention is that the Minister does not have sufficient power to deal with these independent airlines, their charter services and their inclusive tour operations. Glancing at the figures for the Corporations as a whole, their safety record is quite good. Since October, 1958, it has been excellent, because there has not been a fatal accident of any kind. Concerning the independent airlines, however, while their scheduled services are quite good—but are not as good as the Corporations'—their charter services and inclusive tours present a different picture. They are not good at all, especially when one considers that since July last year there have been 67 fatal accidents on these aircraft alone.
  Hon. Members: Fatal?
  Mr. Mason: There have been 67 deaths resulting from three disasters on these services alone. I agree with the Parliamentary Secretary when he said in an Adjournment debate the other week that statistics should be used with caution when considering the accident record of airlines. There are many permutations, whatever statistics one uses, but we cannot escape the fact that the independent airlines' record is worse than the Corporations' charter services and that their inclusive tours are even worse still.
  My right hon. Friend the Member for Dundee, West (Mr. Strachey) mentioned one of the tables which appeared in Flight of 19th October, which was based on capacity ton miles of all the services. That table proved that the fatality rate over the past six years—not just in the last twelve months—was eight times higher for the independents than for the Corporations.
  1580
  The Institute of Professional Civil Servants carried out a remarkable survey on this matter. Credit is due to that organisation, because it has been looking after the interests of its own members. That survey proved that between 1951 and 1955—and the survey was checking movements in millions of miles per accident, not capacity ton miles—having checked 800,000 movements in and out of the United Kingdom, the number of accidents per movement was five times higher for chartered than for scheduled services. That organisation repeated the survey in 1958 and found that it had increased from a five-to-one ratio to a 7½-tol ratio. In terms of movements, the accident survey showed that the position had become worse both in and out of the United Kingdom.
  As a result of this, I asked Questions of the Minister, who published a table in the OFFICIAL REPORT. If this table is analysed one sees that the independents' accident rate as against the Corporations, on the basis of millions of miles per accident, is still three times worse than the Corporations—and that is excluding this year's accidents that have taken place. When those sixty-seven have been added—the accidents to which I referred earlier—the ratio will be increased enormously.
  Group Captain C. A. B. Wilcock: The hon. Gentleman no doubt realises, when he refers to the accident rate of the independents concerning charter flying, that the Corporations do not normally do charter flying.
  Mr. Mason: The Corporations do, of course, do charter flying. We know, of course, of one particular accident which took place in 1958 when an aircraft piloted by Pilot Thain crashed as it was taking off from the Munich airport and when the Manchester United football team was virtually wiped out. But this was a Corporation charter operation. And my argument is against charters, whether by the Corporations or by independent operators.
  Of course, as I stated at the outset, independent airlines are doing far more of this service than the Corporations. I recognise that many of these airline companies have very good safety records indeed. They may only have—my hon. and gallant Friend's company did—one

  1581
  accident in probably twenty-two years of operation which makes their accident rate look pretty bad. But some of the small companies are having a lot of accidents, only just escaping from their becoming fatal accidents. They, particularly, are worse off than the Derby Aviation Company, for example, which has operated for a very long time and has had only one accident.
  We have, first, the Civil Aviation Licensing Act, then the Report of the Licensing Board and then from the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Aviation we have the statement that we have watching and criticising these companies 48 inspectors. I am satisfied, first, that that number of men cannot do the job efficiently; secondly, that the Licensing Board has very limited powers indeed, and thirdly, that these 48 inspectors cannot scrutinise completely the companies, their aircraft and, particularly, the whole range of charter operations and inclusive tours that go on during the summer.
  I wish to ask what method of investigation is used by this inspectorate of 48. I am satisfied, of course, that its numbers are not sufficient. We already know that the inspectorate responsible for investigating after an accident has occurred is understaffed because, that is stated in the Cairns Committee's Report issued not long ago. Already understaffed for investigating accidents, I am satisfied that the Ministry is understaffed for scrutinising these types of operations.
  Let us examine what the people concerned have to do. There are 55 companies with 463 aircraft in public transport, and 32 of these companies are engaged in services such as charter flying and inclusive tours. How is it possible for this small body of men to examine and inspect navigational aids, all the equipment and the routing of flights, which is most important? My right hon. Friend brought out this point in his speech.
  This is something, the routing of the flights, which is not properly looked into. Both B.E.A. and B.O.A.C. invariably have two if not three pilots flying on a given route, one of whom has already been flying on the route before. If a man wants to be conversant with the route he has to fly with someone who is
  1582
  already conversant with it. This does not happen with the independent airlines. This is one point, the routeing of these flights, which the Minister is not investigating thoroughly. When an independent airline company is flying an aircraft over an unknown route and is sending a pilot over that route for the first time, the Minister has no power to control matters and to see that the person responsible is conversant with the route and has traversed the area before.
  Sir A. V. Harvey: The hon. Gentleman is making a very serious allegation against at least some independent companies which he has not named. If he knew of cases where this procedure had not been followed, he should have informed the House.
  Mr. Mason: I am obliged to the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. If he attended the House more frequently, especially at Question Time, he would know that when we want to raise these matters, especially when we do not wish to name companies or people in the House, we send the material to the Minister concerned. Whether the matter be in reference to pilots or companies, or anyone else, our Privilege is a qualified one. Only last week one of my hon. Friends raised the question of three pilots leaving B.E.A. for inefficiency and going to independent airlines. The Minister asked for names to be sent through the post. Mr. Speaker was asked to what extent we were covered in doing that, and his reply was, "I am sorry, you are not." Unless, of course, hon. Members are prepared to mention people by name in the House, with the possibility of having them bandied about in the Press and the probability of those people's characters being blackened, it is not possible for us to do it.
  Mr. Burden: On a point of order. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman is not endeavouring to mislead the House, but it so happens that when that point was put to the Chair, Mr. Speaker said, "I will look into the matter and let you know." He did not make the statement that the matter was not covered by Privilege.
  Mr. Mason: I am much obliged to the hon. Gentleman. If he were better informed it would not be necessary for

  1583
  me to explain the matter to him, but I will inform him that Mr. Speaker is not going to make a statement on the matter. My hon. Friend and the hon. Member who supported him received a private letter from Mr. Speaker saying that hon. Members cannot send information through the post and be covered by Privilege. It is a qualified Privilege and an hon. Member has to take the risk.
  Mr. Ede: That was settled by the disastrous decision of the House in the case of my right hon. Friend the Member for Vauxhall (Mr. Strauss).
  Mr. Arthur Skeffington: Which hon. Members opposite supported.
  Mr. Mason: It is easier for the Government to make an inquiry, but if a member of the Opposition wishes to make an inquiry it is very difficult because of this situation.
  Mr. Sydney Silverman: I am not sure whether I have the facts correctly, but my recollection is that on the occasion of the Question raised by my right hon. Friend the Member for Vauxhall (Mr. Strauss) the matter was referred to the Committee of Privileges which reported in favour of its being covered by Privilege. But the Report of the Committee was set aside by a vote of the House, with most hon. and right hon. Members opposite voting against the Privilege.
  Mr. Mason: I am much obliged to my hon. Friend. I do not want to pursue the matter further, but I would inform the hon. Gentleman opposite that I do not propose to mention independent companies or pilots by name because of this position. I do not wish to blacken the names of anyone in the country. I am, however, restricted in sending information to the Minister because doing so is not completely covered by Privilege, but I hope that what I have said will be sufficient for the Minister to do something about the matter.
  I have dealt with navigational aids and the routeing of flights. I would point out that many of the small airline companies are using little used airports abroad which are not on regularly used
  1584
  routes. They are using airport equipment which is not up to modern standards, and here they take a chance. Some 40 per cent. of all accidents take place on the approach to landing. Here there is something in the charter company's favour, because, in the main, they are doing short hops and are doing more take-offs and landings than the scheduled services whether operated by independent airlines or the Corporations. Consequently, there is the danger all the time that they will be subject to more danger than those operating the long hop flights.
  As far as servicing is concerned, we can easily see the difference between the Corporations and the independent airlines. First of all, the Corporations are flying on regular routes and using regular airports. They have skilled technicians on most touch-down points. They use aircraft equipped with modern devices, especially for safe take-off and landing. They are the State airlines carrying the nation's name and bearing the flag. Therefore, they tend to be more cautious and hence more safe. It should be noted that B.E.A. alone has already spent more than£1 million on training facilities for pilots.
  It is understandable that the independents cannot compete on this scale. This is why it is essential to have greater scrutiny by the Minister of Aviation than hitherto. They may be using aircraft which are not often used, aircraft probably in mothballs during the winter when the traffic is slack. The crews themselves are not, perhaps, regularly flying. They are flying a great deal during the holiday season, of course, but not during the winter. They may often go on new and unknown routes. They may not be familiar with the aircraft. I do not know to what extent the crews which are brought in from their odd jobs in the country to pilot passengers in the summer are fully familiar with the aircraft and the equipment which they have to use. To what extent does the Ministry and its inspectorate keep a watch on this kind of operation?
  There is the problem of pilot fatigue. The people who fly the charter services and inclusive tours are brought in for a short period of the year. They are racing the clock all the time, flogging the machines and flogging themselves,

  1585
  getting the maximum done during a short period of service life, as it were. Accidents are more likely to happen in those circumstances on charter flights and inclusive tours than on scheduled services. The crews may be going on unknown routes, flying by instruments all the time, perhaps having to work an excessively long working day. Consequently, the possibility of pilot fatigue will always be greater on this kind of operation than on the scheduled services.
  At a conservative estimate, 200,000 people will during the coming summer go abroad to Spain and other places on charter services and inclusive tours. Taking an average of only 60 people per aircraft, counting the movements in and out, there will be 7,000 flights of this kind during the summer. The demand exists and the competition is enormously keen. All sorts of aircraft are brought into service at these times. Both crews and aircraft work very hard for a short period. I wonder, also, to what extent the drive for lower fares in inclusive tours may, in itself, prejudice safety.
  We have heard already about pilots leaving B.E.A. because of inefficiency or lack of discipline. Some of them may be working for the independent airlines. The question is worthy of study by the Minister to ascertain to what extent this kind of thing happens, and to what extent old aircraft, aircraft previously used by B.E.A., are being used by the independent airlines. Many old aircraft are used on the summer tours.
  I am not satisfied that the Ministry has imposed upon the independents, and particularly on the charter operators, the general safety standards required of the Corporations, and I am not satisfied that the Minister or his inspectorate have sufficient power to scrutinise all these operations. I reiterate my plea that the Minister should set up a committee on aircraft accident prevention. We have had the Cairns Committee dealing with investigations after an accident. What we need now is a full investigation throughout the Corporations and the independent airlines into accident prevention itself and, flowing from that, into the extent to which the Minister could tighten up his own regulations.
  1586
  There is an acute shortage of pilots in the country at the moment. Both Corporations are suffering from this shortage, and the independents must be suffering likewise. I note from the Report that B.E.A. has during the last year recruited thirty pilots from Canada, from Trans-Canada Airlines and from the Royal Canadian Air Force. Both Corporations have high hopes of success in what will flow from the Air Training College at Hamble which opened only as late as September, 1960, but I doubt that even this college will provide sufficient pilots for B.E.A., B.O.A.C., and some of the large independent airlines which may be suffering from the same shortage.
  I wonder to what extent the independent airlines are getting the pilots and what type of pilot they are using during the summer. Is the Minister able to keep a check on the type of pilot who is brought in to run the charter services in the summer, whatever job he may be doing all during the winter?
  I do not, of course, wish to be responsible for a witch hunt, but there is no reason why we should not ascertain whether there are people who, after being sacked for inefficiency, lack of discipline and so on from the Corporations, are going to independent airlines. The wages and conditions offered by the independents cannot be on the same scale as those offered by the Corporations, so there may be in the small airlines a number of what might be called "wastepaper basket" pilots. Obviously, the small airlines cannot compete on the same scale with Corporation standards, and pilots of inferior quality may be brought in by some of the small airlines. I repeat that we should not start a witch hunt, but I believe, nevertheless, that the Minister should look into that.
  My last point relates to safety and public accountability. The Corporations, like nationalised industries, are always coming under review in the House, at Question Time, in debates on Annual Reports, and so on. There is always a public inquiry following their accidents. They are always subject to a great deal of debate in the House of Commons. All this is not so with the independents. There is usually an inquiry after their accidents, but Members of Parliament have to take the

  1587
  opportunity to burst in on debates on Annual Reports or on Supply Days to try to highlight some of the deficiencies of the smaller companies.
  Allied with the need for safety and public accountability is the faulty and sluggish method for disseminating information concerning the causes of accidents to all the airline companies after inquiries are held. Again, this is easy for the Corporations. The great advantage of a nationalised undertaking is that, when an accident takes place within its purview, everyone is immediately acquainted with the lessons to be learned. That is the beauty of nationalised coal mining today. If there is an accident at one colliery, shortly after the inquiry every pit in the country is aware of how the accident happened and of what precautions should be taken against similar accidents occurring. This does not apply to the small airline companies today.
  This subject causes a great deal of concern in many of the technical journals which deal with these matters. I draw the attention of the House to the issue of Flight of 28th September this year where, in a discussion of this very matter, it is said:
  "Safety in air transport does not sort well with secrecy, for two reasons: firstly, public accountability is a deterrent to the bad operator; secondly, safety experience must be shared as widely as possible throughout the air transport industry. No one really disputes that safety and secrecy do not go together. The problem always is that the rights of the individual must be protected. Unfortunately, so weighted is the system in favour of the sharp operator that, all too frequently, the wrong or mistakes of a company or an individual are protected too."
  This is bound to happen in the operations of the small companies. A small company can have an accident which is soon hushed over. There is not public scrutiny. There is no public debate and no lessons are learned from it. The same sort of thing could be happening at the very same time; a similar accident could occur which could have been stopped if people were fully aware of information flowing from accident inquiries.
  The final paragraph of the article from which I have quoted already reads:
  "Although the time may well have come to reconsider whether the enforcement of U.K. civil aviation safety legislation is adequate, more important than anything else is
  1588
  the need for a fresh approach by the Ministry to the dissemination of safety information. Excellent work is being done by an independent body, the Transport Flight Safety Committee, which publishes—at present for private circulation only—Flight Safety Focus. But final responsibility for safety, the furtherance of which depends so much on the sharing of experience, lies with the Ministry."
  I could not agree more with that article. It is absolutely essential that, if there is to be generally available information both about and for the little companies which are operating aircraft, the lessons to be drawn from accidents must be quickly disseminated all down the line.
  On the technical matters, apart from having a speedy inquiry into an accident and a public report flowing from it, there is no reason why, when there is an aircraft accident, there should not be a public report presented to the House of Commons. Every time there is a mining accident there is a Blue Book presented reporting all the facts, with charts, details and plans. A similar report should be available in the case of aircraft accidents. On technical matters relating to accidents, this method of dissemination ought to be exploited so that the Ministry may consider to what extent information should quickly be sent to all the technical bodies concerned so that they themselves may print it in their own journals and thereby form a wider body of informed public opinion on the precise causes of accidents and the lessons to be learned from them.
  I think there is still a great deal to do in this subject of keeping the airways safe. Flying is still pretty safe, in spite of the fact that we have to highlight these deficiencies, but I do not want the Minister, in his proposals to give the independent airlines a new deal, to cloud his vision. At all times, as far as I am personally concerned—and that is why I have spent the whole of my time in intervening in this debate on this subject—safety must be kept paramount in the Minister's mind
  5.41 p.m.
  Mr. William Shepherd: I think the House is probably quite ready to accept the view of the hon. Member for Barnsley (Mr. Mason) that safety is an all-important factor in civil aviation and that we ought properly to spend more time here today discussing the merits and

  1589
  demerits of various forms of operation but I feel that he has spoiled some of his case by indulging in exaggerations which, I think, are extremely unwise and also unfair both to individual pilots and individual operators.
  For instance, is it not manifestly unfair for the hon. Gentleman to say that a pilot for an independent company can get into an aircraft of which he has no knowledge and fly it away on an inclusive tour? Even the hon. Gentleman ought to know that the pilot has to be passed out for that type of aircraft.
  Sir A. V. Harvey: Withdraw.
  Mr. Shepherd: The hon. Gentleman is wrong, in a situation of some gravity, in trying to convey to the House and to a wider audience outside a completely distorted picture of what is happening. I do not myself want to try to minimise the gravity of recent accidents, because I realise that there may well be inherent in charier flying a more risky operation than in the case of scheduled operations. I should like to see my right hon. Friend inquiring more closely into the figures relating to charter flying, both in this country and abroad, to try to establish whether it is inescapable that we have had and shall have more accidents with charter operators than with scheduled operators. I think that, first, it is essential to establish that. It may well be that this is so, not necessarily because the operators are incompetent, the pilot, careless or the aircraft old, but because of the very nature of the operation itself.
  The right hon. Member for Dundee, West (Mr. Strachey), who opened the debate for the Opposition, made a very reasoned approach to this problem of safety, but I wondered whether in one particular he was not a little too kind to the charter companies when he said that he did not think that the type of aircraft was very critical to the rate of accidents. I am not myself entirely convinced that this is so. I am not at all sure, for example, that an aircraft which cannot fly above the weather is as likely to avoid trouble as one that can. I should like my right hon. Friend to try to investigate this aspect of the question, because it may well be that aircraft which are unable to fly above the weather are exposed in modern conditions to more hazards than those that can. As one who has very
  1590
  often recently had experience of charter flying, I can say that the aircraft are more uncomfortable in bad weather.
  I want to try to bring home to the House the danger of exaggerating what has happened in the last few months with charter aircraft, and I want to do so by comparison with our own nationalised Corporations and other aircraft of other countries. It is perfectly true to say that our scheduled operators—the two Corporations—have a fairly good record, but this is, unhappily, only a relatively recent event. If five years ago one had compared the accident record of the British Corporations with the accident records of the independent operators in the United States of America, one would have found that the accident rate of the British Corporations was something like three times as high, and I believe it was even more at one time a little earlier on.
  It is conceivable that there may well be cycles of difficulties which for the moment paint a very unfortunate picture. It is definitely true with a relatively small charter operator, and it may well be that in the case of charter operations one occasionally gets the unfortunate pilot, and the unfortunate pilot in a charter operation can have disastrous results on the record of his company. One unfortunate pilot in a charter company can have a very much more disastrous effect upon his company than the pilot of a scheduled airline of the same size. We ought to emphasise that the pilot is still the main cause of the accidents which we have so far investigated, and, so far as I can see, he is likely to remain the main cause of most major accidents.
  I hope that my right hon. Friend, when he receives the reports on these three recent unfortunate affairs, will go very carefully into whether more stringent regulations are necessary to ensure the safety of charter operations. Let me say at once that I should prefer to see a slightly higher level of fares, anxious as I am to see fares in aviation down generally, and would welcome regulations which might result in a slightly higher level of fares with a much higher standard of safety than merely pursuing the aim of the lowest possible fare. I hope that my right hon. Friend,

  1591
  when he has these reports, will decide what he is going to do.
  I think that the hon. Member for Barnsley was perhaps a little wrong when he said that 48 inspectors were inadequate. I do not know what is the total number of aircraft flying civilian passengers in this country, but it cannot be a very big total, and I should not have thought that 48 inspectors was a very meagre number to deal with them. I should have thought it was about right.
  May I now leave the subject of air safety and say a word or two about the Licensing Board? I say right away to my right hon. Friend that I regard it as extremely unfortunate that the first major decision of that Board in favour of a private operator should have been reversed. I accept all the difficulties of my right hon. Friend's position, and I think it is probably commercially unlikely that any independent operators would have sought to have gone into these rather difficult operations over the Atlantic in the next year or two. Nevertheless, I feel aggrieved in some measure that the first major decision in favour of a private operator should have been reversed. I hope that the Board will not take the view that, as a consequence, this House is any the less determined to see that the private operator should have a share than it was before.
  The right hon. Gentleman who led for the Opposition was somewhat unfair in the partial way in which he described the report of the Board. The Board did not say that the private operator was justified in skimming off part of the business of the Corporations. What the Board said, and properly said, was that in a growing business it took the view that a private operator was justified in getting a share. This is very different from what the right hon. Gentleman tried to convey to the House. It is a question not of cutting down the activities of the Corporations but of giving to private operators a share in the growing business that will be before civil aviation in the next couple of decades. I reiterate my determination to ensure, as far as I am able to do so, that private operators get a share of that business.
  Mr. Rankin: Would the hon. Gentleman agree that when the business is not growing they can have no right to a share?
  Mr. Shepherd: That is too naive and simple a view of the situation. I will deal in a minute or two with what I think is the more sophisticated aspect of that question.
  What I am saying to my right hon. Friend is that I believe that there should be a place for the private operator, because, although it is true that the Corporations, or, at least, one of them, have served us well, it is equally true that the instrument of flag-carrying in overseas countries, B.O.A.C., has not served us as well as we ought to have been served. I do not hesitate for one moment to pay tribute to any corporation, whether nationalised or otherwise, which does a good job, but let us not have lip-service which is empty and which means nothing.
  In the past, and, unfortunately, today, B.O.A.C. has not done too well. It has not carried out its job as well as it should have done. There have been many faulty decisions on aircraft. There have been bad industrial relations. There has been a laxity of control and a lack of morale which has been damaging to a corporation as large and important as B.O.A.C. If matters cannot be put right merely by changing the directors—I had to make a very strong attack on the directors a couple of years ago, much to my regret, but I thought it essential to make it in the public interest—let us have competition from some other unit to stimulate the Corporations to a greater effort.
  My right hon. Friend has told us that B.O.A.C. will lose about£10 million this year. This is almost as large as its total accumulated deficit. This is a staggering result. I doubt whether any other aircraft corporation in the world of a comparable size will in this current year lose£10 million. If it does, many people will have a lot to say about it, particularly those who own shares in it. It is no good sticking to the idea that only the Corporations can do a good job. If we have an instrument of public policy which is not doing its job, let us put it right, if necessary by stimulating the competition.
  I now turn to the question of sharing traffic. All the arguments about sharing traffic are very wide of the mark, because they refer only to the market that exists at the current rates of fares. This is, of

  1593
  course, a futile, stupid and barren argument, because what we want to do—I hope that the whole world wants to do this—is to stimulate air travel by cheaper fares.
  Mr. Rankin: The hon. Gentleman said the opposite a few minutes ago.
  Mr. Shepherd: I am prepared to admit that there are merits in regulated fares, but, whatever they may be, there is no doubt that the existence of a rigid I.A.T.A. control of fares has done two things—first, it has kept fares at a higher level than they would have been other wise, and, secondly, promoted a headlong race for new aircraft before people are ready to pay for the mode of travel that those aircraft afford.
  If we can travel in a jet aircraft at almost precisely the same fare as in a Dakota, being what we are and liking to get what we can for our money, it is not unnatural that we travel in the jet. There is nothing really wrong in that, but it means that the aim that we ought to pursue in civil aviation, namely, to reduce the cost of flying, has been abandoned for the sake of pursuing the very latest type of aircraft, irrespective of whether or not the market can stand the fares.
  Mr. Charles Loughlin: Could the hon. Gentleman say how B.O.A.C. could maintain its business if it retained its old aeroplanes when foreign competitors were introducing jet aircraft?
  Mr. Shepherd: If there were an I.A.T.A. arrangement to the effect that all aircraft flying should fly at the same fare, it is obvious that every company, in order to get business, must provide itself with the latest type of aircraft. That is precisely what I am saying. We have neglected what ought to be our real pursuit, which is to fly aircraft at economic rates.
  Let me take, for example, the present fare between London and Nice. I go there fairly frequently—I may hasten to add, on business. The tourist fare is£43 return. At this fare, it is beyond anyone's capacity to go to Nice for a few days. It is beyond my capacity as a private individual. If that fare were brought down, as it could be, to£20
  1594
  return, we could generate a great deal of traffic between London and Nice. This applies to many places, such as Portugal, Spain and Greece. But this traffic is not generated, simply because we have pursued a rigid fare policy, which means that the highest fares must prevail.
  I hope that when my right hon. Friend discusses the question of fares structure he will try to get a different approach which will mean that we are after not sharing the existing market among different operators but creating new forms of traffic and new markets so that every operator will be able to operate properly. I believe that there is room in British aviation for efficient nationalised corporations and efficient private firms. If we can get away from the stranglehold of I.A.T.A., I think that there is plenty of business for both.
  5.57 p.m.
  Mrs. Eirene White: I take part in this debate with a certain amount of diffidence, because I have not any experience of civil aviation and, unlike some hon. Members on both sides, I am not an expert in the matter. However, I have two interests in this subject. One is a strong constituency interest and the other is that of the ordinary passenger or consumer of this industry.
  I was very much interested in the remarks of my hon. Friend the Member for Barnsley (Mr. Mason) about air safety, to which he has referred in this House before. I very much hope that the Minister will reassure the public and will make certain that every possible step is being taken to ascertain the causes of accidents. We have had a limited number of fatal accidents. We do not know how many near-misses there have been. The margin between a hideous fatal accident and one that just did not happen can be very narrow.
  I think that we are all very much concerned about the human factor in chartered flights. It is not a question of blaming the pilots; it is simply that the human factor is so important. If a pilot is fatigued, if he has been asked to fly in unreasonable conditions, if he is not sure that his company will back him if he takes a decision on weather conditions, and so forth, then he is being asked to fly in conditions which may turn the near-miss into an accident.

  1595
  My husband and I flew in a chartered aircraft some years ago, on an Italian holiday. It was cheaper. We were in no position to judge the skill or efficiency of the pilot. All we could judge was the thorough inefficiency of everything else connected with that airline. We came back by it with great hesitation. Having made the return journey, we both swore that we would never go on a charter flight again but would stick to scheduled services. When that company was involved in a horrible accident, some months later, it may have had no connection with the kind of thing with which we had been concerned, but we said to one another that we were not surprised.
  It would be most unfortunate if the charter companies, who are taking many people abroad on holiday—and we are happy that they should go—tried to cut their costs to such a point that, they endangered efficiency. This is a case where competition is not necessarily an unmitigated blessing. I was glad that the hon. Member for Cheadle (Mr. Shepherd) rightly said that, in this direction at least, somewhat higher fares may be of advantage to the public.
  My interest not merely as a passenger, but also from a constituency viewpoint, is because there is in my constituency one of de Havilland's largest factories, at Broughton, where serious redundancy is threatened. In considering this, one has to look at the general pattern of civil aviation.
  We have been discussing the independent operators, charter companies, and so on. My right hon. Friend the Member for Dundee, West (Mr. Strachey) suggested that the fact that many of them use old aircraft may or may not be a safety factor. What it certainly may mean is that these firms, because they do not have large financial resources, keep aircraft in operation for long periods and there is no rapid replacement.
  Even in the case of the Corporations, however, modern machines have a much longer replacement cycle than some of the older aircraft had, taking the capacity of the aircraft into account. There is a much larger capacity with the new aircraft. I am told, for example, that the Comet, in which we are particularly interested, is reckoned
  1596
  to have a 15-year cycle. This may not be true when newer aircraft arrive, but I am told that this is the estimate on which the company works. The whole question of both replacement and overcapacity, which is a factor in the question of size and speed, is of great importance for the aircraft industry.
  We are very much worried at the effects of the concentration of the industry in certain areas. The Minister said that what is happening in the aircraft industry is the natural consequence of the Government's statement of policy of February, 1960. The industry was told that it must concentrate in particular, for example, in the pooling of design staff and concentration of manufacture. Up to a point, I appreciate that this is necessary. What worries me, however, is the way in which the burden is distributed and to what extent the Government are prepared to take any sort of responsibility or any kind of interest in what happens.
  I have read the OFFICIAL REPORT of the debate in another place yesterday. I cannot quote directly in this House the proceedings of another place, but I read what Lord Mills said about reundancy.
  Mr. Ede: My hon. Friend can quote from the Minister.
  Mrs. White: That is true. The Minister, Lord Mills, speaking yesterday for the Government on the question of redundancy said:
  "It is something that the industry must work out and with which they are competent to deal."
  That is the philosophy of the party opposite. Lord Mills also said:
  "I do not think we should be surprised or dismayed…that for a time we shall have to grapple with this problem of redundancy."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, House of Lords, 22nd November, 1961; Vol. 235, cc. 930, 929.]
  What concerns us is whether the Government are prepared to grapple with this problem of redundancy.
  It is disturbing for workers, many of whom have come from other parts of the country to a place like Broughton, on the outskirts of Chester, to a factory which, in the words of Sir Aubrey Burke, head of the Hawker Siddeley Group, is regarded as
  "our best production factory but it is designed to handle an output of aircraft in considerable

  1597
  numbers and in the days in which we are living we do not get orders for a large number of aircraft, either for military or civil types."
  In other words, here is a factory, owned by the Government, designed for the production of large aircraft, which cannot be worked economically unless large numbers of aircraft axe made there. The overheads are otherwise too great. I am, therefore, anxious and concerned to know how far the Government take any responsibility for the results of their policy.
  I asked the Minister in an intervention whether any credence could be placed in a report in the Daily Express earlier this week. I did so because in that report, in which it is suggested that the Government have decided to stage a rescue operation, some quite specific points were made, one of which is of considerable interest to the workers in my constituency. It is said that there is under consideration
  "An order for 20 de Havilland 125 small jet executive aircraft—to be used as a flying classroom for navigational training and for 'brass-hat' travel."
  If this is true, I shall be delighted to hear it from the Parliamentary Secretary. If the Government are proposing to order 20 DH125s, I do not mind who the "brass-hats" are, whether they are sitting on the Front Bench opposite or anybody else. If the Government are prepared to order DH125s, they have our full support.
  What I want to know is just how much substance there is in this suggestion. If there is no substance in it, I would like to say to the Daily Express reporter that it is a very cruel thing indeed to put something like that in a newspaper and to arouse hopes among the workers who, between now and Christmas, face redundancy.
  Mr. Loughlin: May I put my hon. Friend out of her misery? My hon. Friend the Member for Gloucester (Mr. Diamond) and I had discussions yesterday with the Minister about redundancy in our part of the country. The Minister said quite clearly that this was a commercial decision which was of no concern of the Government.
  Mrs. White: My hon. Friend has confirmed what I suspected. As this matter has appeared in print, however, it is only
  1598
  right that I should bring it up on the Floor of the House and get the facts of the situation. If the Government are saying that this is simply a commercial matter and they are not undertaking any rescue operation, we should be told. It is most disturbing for workers in the industry to see a report like that if it has no foundation.
  Another thing which is most disturbing for workers placed as those in my constituency are is that, while they are so lacking in work, they learn from their colleagues in other parts of the country that new premises are being built, a new training school is being set up and advertisements are placed in the newspapers for more workers; and they ask whose job it is to share out the work in a shrinking industry.
  Is it to be left entirely to the two consortia? Have the Government washed their hands of it completely? If there is an excess of work in one place and a shortage elsewhere, surely the Government should pay attention to it. If they do not, we are faced in certain areas, not merely with redundancy, but with the possibility of complete closure of establishments which are designed, equipped and efficient for the production of aircraft.
  I want today a much clearer indication of what the Government believe is likely to be the future size of our industry. The Minister said a great deal in his speech—indeed, he really did not say very much else—about the inter-nationalisation of aviation. Well, I am as good an internationalist as anyone else, I trust; I have no objection at all to our going into suitable agreements with other countries, but I must say that I shall feel very hesitant if the Government are to be in charge of negotiations for this kind of thing. After all, we have seen what they have done in bungling about the Common Market.
  Really, one would hesitate very much lest they should behave in the general as they do in the particular. I should like to know a great deal more about what is really intended and as to where the balance of responsibility would lie between private firms and the Government, supposing we went in, not for an internal consortium, but for an international consortium for the production of any of these new aircraft.

  1599
  I do not propose to speak at any great length, because I know that there are many more hon. Members with problems to raise, some of them similar to my own, but I think that those of us who represent constituencies like mine, where we have literally thousands of workers not knowing what their future is to be, and who, I repeat, many of them, came into the area from outside when they were urged to do so, and have established themselves there, have established homes there, and have their children at school there, are entitled to ask for a much clearer indication from the Government of what their real intention is and how far they take any responsibility.
  The Minister made just the most fleeting reference to the need for harmonising civil and military construction. He went into no details at all. I would like to know just how far, in the situation I have described, we can expect any assistance from the military side if there is a gap in civilian orders.
  We have been discussing relations between the independent airlines and the Corporations. I should like to say from my experience that the company in my constituency, de Havilland, would not have had a hope of keeping that place open at all if it had not been for firm orders off the drawing board by the Corporations. It is no substitute at all to have an odd order here and there from an independent operator, and if we weaken the Corporations we shall not merely be weakening them but weakening the British aircraft production industry as well. I see the hon. Member for Cheadle shaking his head. I would ask him, if it were not for B.E.A., where would the orders have been for the 24 Tridents?
  Mr. Shepherd: I will answer the hon. Lady. I agree, of course, that the domestic market for the companies producing here is important, but surely the hon. Lady realises that B.E.A., in tailoring the DH121 to its specific requirements, may have damaged the prospects of successfully selling the aircraft overseas?
  Mrs. White: Maybe, but at least it gave the order for the 24, and nobody else did, and nobody else would have
  1600
  done until the aircraft were in the air. Orders on a purely speculative basis will not be placed for something as expensive at this. Manufacturers need orders for planes still on the drawing board. The smaller people will buy only when the aircraft is in the air. Therefore, we in our position want to have a clear view of the Government's decision which would in any essential way weaken the civil aviation Corporations on which our aircraft industry depends.
  There is only one other thing I should like to mention, and it is also a constituency point, although it is also more than that, for it is a North Wales point. We have not this afternoon had any discussion at length on the question of airports. I have been asked by my own local authority, Flint County Council, which has been in consultation with other North Wales local authorities on this matter, to say in this House that we feel that further consideration should be given to a civil airport within easy reach of North Wales. We are not satisfied with being in the Manchester area.
  Anyone who knows the state of traffic in the summer between North Wales and Lancashire knows that it will take one longer to get from almost any part of North Wales to the airport than it will then take to make a journey by air—to anywhere in Europe, certainly. We feel that, as far as summer flights go, at any rate, we should have consideration for the airport at Hawarden. I myself would very much prefer that B.E.A. should run more services from there, but if B.E.A. does not wish to do so one would be happy if a suitable private operator were licensed to use this airport, which would be within reasonable distance of good rail communications, and so on, with other parts of North Wales, which, at the moment, is without any sort of civil airport services whatsoever.
  6.16 p.m.
  Mr. Stephen McAdden: In twelve years I have only once previously bothered the House with any observations whatever on questions of civil aviation. If I do so this time it is perhaps among other things to remind the House that on that occasion I was urging the then Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation to respond to the appeal which had been made for the

  1601
  institution of colonial coach class services to Africa, a move which at that time was bitterly opposed by B.O.A.C.
  I am glad that they were, in fact, instituted and that today B.O.A.C, which said at one time that it could not do so, is now operating them in happy unison with other lines and at lower fares which, it said at that time, were uneconomic. So, perhaps, a lesson may be learned, that if we do introduce an element of competition in the airline services we can succeed in getting cheaper fares and shall be able to travel about the world more cheaply than is the case at present.
  Apart from that, I would not have been provoked into taking part in this debate had it not been for the way in which the matter was introduced by the right hon Member for Dundee, West (Mr. Strachey) who opened for the Opposition. I think it is true to say that on both sides of the House we are concerned with the safety of the travelling public. It is not a question of political faith. We are concerned with seeing that people who travel by air are able to travel as safely as is humanly possible.
  However, I think that it is really going a bit too far when attempts are made to divide into two kinds the people who cater for the flying needs of the public, the Corporations, on the one hand, and the independents, on the other, and to assume that all independents are exactly the same. We have got some first-class independent airline operators with an absolutely unblemished safety record. It is also a fact that we have got some independent operators whose activities ought to be carefully watched and, if necessary, stopped. But to group them all together in an attempt to besmirch them all and to conduct a kind of smear campaign against those independent operators as a group is both unfair and unjust.
  The right hon. Gentleman went out of his way to adduce one example in support of his case of how independent operators conduct their duties. He produced a letter which, for greater verisimilitude, was from a wing commander; this, presumably, was to get the hallmark of authenticity on what was being said. He said that an independent airline pilot who had been employed by the independent line,
  1602
  because he did not take off when the operator wished him to take off, because he refrained from taking off, was sacked; Wing Commander James was so upset about this that he wrote to the right hon. Gentleman; this firm, so the right hon. Gentleman said, not only sacked the pilot, but had gone bankrupt.
  Let us get one or two things straight. First, there is nothing wrong with sacking a pilot.
  Mr. Strachey: It depends why.
  Mr. McAdden: That is better. I thought that the right hon. Gentleman would fall for that one. He says that it depends why the pilot is sacked.
  The right hon. Gentleman, on being challenged, showed he had never made the slightest inquiry. I challenged him earlier, and he said, "I do not know, but the inference is that he was sacked because of this particular incident." In fact, it had nothing to do with it at all. Not at all.
  Wing Commander James, who wrote to the right hon. Gentleman, was interviewed by the chief pilot of the company concerned, with one of its directors. The circumstances of the case were explained to him, and he expressed himself as being completely satisfied by the explanation which was given.
  Mr. Strachey: The House will judge on the ridiculous travesty of what I said which the hon. Gentleman is making. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] The House will judge, not hon. Members opposite. But what the hon. Gentleman said about Wing Commander James I must contradict, because he wrote to me. I received the letter yesterday and the House can judge for itself, by the letter, whether he was satisfied. He was totally dissatisfied. I also discussed the matter with him. He was on the flight himself. He is himself an expert in these matters. There is not the slightest question of his being satisfied. I contradict the hon. Member when he says that Wing Commander James was satisfied.
  Mr. McAdden: The right hon. Gentleman had his letter yesterday. I spoke to the chief pilot of the firm this afternoon. We cannot take time discussing this now but the chief pilot is not a wing commander, he is a group captain, and he was not

  1603
  satisfied entirely with the efficiency of this pilot.
  In this incident, the pilot came on at 10 a.m. He took off from Pisa at 15.00 and returned to Pisa at 16.30. He still had 7½hours of duty to do, but he cancelled his flight immediately. I am not an expert pilot, but those who are know that weather can sometimes change in two hours, and for a pilot to cancel his turn of duty with 7½hours still to go might well decide that he should be relieved of his command. This pilot was not dismissed, but was demoted to first officer. The allegation of the right hon. Gentleman's should not have been made.
  Mr. Strachey: The hon. Member now agrees that this incident resulted in the pilot's attempted demotion, which he would not accept, so the hon. Gentleman is shown to be completely wrong.
  Mr. Eden: On a point of order. Would it not be in order to remind the right hon. Gentleman that the House is not in Committee? He may be under a misapprehension.
  Mr. Strachey: I apologise. One further point which should be taken into account by the hon. Member for Southend, East (Mr. McAdden) is that it is also the invariable rule of B.E.A. that when a pilot decides that it is not safe to go on, his decision is never questioned. That is the right rule, which was not followed in this case.
  Mr. McAdden: I do not want to pursue this matter unduly, but this company has a first-class safety record. It has never had an accident. It has never sacked a pilot for deciding not to go on, but what it does insist is that a decision to cancel a flight should not be taken while there is still a long period of unexpired duty to go, during which the weather might well change. That is also a long-standing rule followed by the Corporations. As the hon. Member for Barnsley (Mr. Mason) pointed out, pilots have been dismissed from B.E.A. for inefficiency. If it is right for the Corporations to take this line, it is equally right for the chief pilot of an independent airline to take such a line about a particular person if he thinks fit.
  I now turn to the question of the bankruptcy of this company as being
  1604
  something to take into account. Some of the nationalised industries and Corporations might be in a sticky position if considered on a purely financial basis, but this company is not bankrupt. The right hon. Gentleman has no right to exercise his privilege in the House to make allegations against individual firms.
  Mr. Strachey: We must get this clear. The company is in the hands of a receiver.
  Mr. McAdden: That is a different thing.
  Mr. Strachey: It is a different thing, but it is quite clear what the position of the company is, and there is no slur on it in saying that.
  Mr. McAdden: I was about to explain, but apparently the right hon. Gentleman sees it more clearly now. There is a difference between a receiver and manager being appointed and going bankrupt. If one were to judge some of the Corporations on the basis of financial stability, the right hon. Gentleman would have a great deal to worry about.
  I want now to turn to the general issue of the attitude taken by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Aviation concerning the Cunard Eagle application, which was accepted by the Licensing Board, but finally turned down by him after a commissioner had inquired into the case. It is most unfortunate that in this, the first major instance to come before the Minister, he should decide to turn down the recommendation of the Board, whose excellence he has praised and whose chairman, he says, is beyond praise. It is regrettable that he should have taken this step, and regrettable that he should have taken it for the reasons he has given.
  If I understand him correctly from the information which he has given, my right hon. Friend decided to reject the application because the number of aircraft ordered by B.O.A.C. is sufficient to cover its requirements for several years, and that it would be unfair, therefore, to grant a licence to Cunard Eagle. If we are to have the position in which a nationalised Corporation is prepared to say that, because it has all the aircraft for a route nobody else can operate on it, then it is not much use for an independent airline to apply for a licence to operate at all.

  1605
  When my right hon. Friend says that his second reason is that the operation of this service by an independent operator would mean a diversion of customers from B.O.A.C. and other operators, that seems to me to make nonsense of the creation of this Licensing Board. If the Board is to be given a chance at all, it must be given a chance to operate within proper and specific terms, with the cards not being stacked in favour of the Corporations and their being allowed to say that so long as they have sufficient aircraft no one else can operate a service, and that, as long as another airline can take passengers from them, it cannot have a licence.
  I understand that it is not the intention or the desire of Cunard Eagle to take away existing customers of B.O.A.C. It wishes to do what other independent operators have done with the African service—by the reduction of fares to create fresh traffic and customers on these routes. The importance of the independent airlines' effort in Africa has been recognised by B.O.A.C.
  Mr. Burden: The share of B.O.A.C.'s traffic in capacity ton miles has risen since 1955, when it was 254 million capacity ton miles, to 667 million capacity ton miles in 1960–61. Does that not show that there is an enormous possibility for further growth?
  Mr. McAdden: I am glad to have given way to my hon. Friend so that he could give those statistics. If we are able to operate a competitive service between the independents and B.O.A.C. on the African route, there is equal possibility of operating a mutually satisfactory service on the Atlantic traffic.
  Mr. Chetwynd: That does not apply in this case. The hon. Member should know that there can be no fare competition on the North Atlantic route. The fares are arranged by I.A.T.A. Cunard Eagle did not make that point in its claim.
  Mr. McAdden: I am not suggesting that this was the point of its case. What I am saying, in particular, is that if the Corporations are to be put in a privileged position of being able to say, "We have ordered enough aircraft and
  1606
  the introduction of any competition means that some traffic will be diverted from us", and these are to be paramount considerations in the Minister's mind, it is a waste of time for independent operators to go to the Licensing Board at all.
  I can understand the attitude of those who walked out of the Licensing Board. I can understand their saying, "What is the point? We employ counsel to represent our case. We spend a great deal of money on its presentation. This independent body examines the facts and grants us a licence, within the rather strict terms laid down by the Act, and then, having obtained the licence and ordered the aircraft, some of them in advance, in expectation of being allowed to operate within the terms of the licence, the Minister turns us down."
  Mr. Rankin Mr. Rankin rose—
  Mr. McAdden: No, I cannot give way.
  Mr. Rankin: The hon. Member is saying something which is not true.
  Mr. McAdden: I am saying that I can quite understand the attitude of a company in withdrawing its application before the Licensing Board, because it seems to me that the independents are not getting a fair crack of the whip.
  Mr. Rankin Mr. Rankin rose—
  Mr. McAdden: No.
  Mr. Rankin: The hon. Member cannot face the truth.
  Mr. McAdden: I agree with one thing which was said by the hon. Member for Barnsley, in so far as I comprehend it, and perhaps my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary will make it clear for my benefit when he winds up the debate. The hon. Member drew attention to the Civil Aviation (Licensing) Act, 1960, Section 2 (4) of which seems to remove from the Board any consideration of the safety methods used by the operator in operating his aircraft.
  The hon. Member for Barnsley suggested that this was a weakness. Indeed, at first sight it appears so to be. I should like to know whether the safety aspect is taken care of in some other

  1607
  way. I assume that it must. I cannot imagine that it is completely ignored, but this subsection appears to take it away from review by the Licensing Board. I hope that my hon. Friend will be able to give a satisfactory answer on this point.
  The independent operators, over a wide field of activities, have provided remarkably good service. They have succeeded in bringing down by a remarkable degree the cost of transportation of people from this country to places abroad. Thousands of people have travelled safely in the airlines of independent operators all over the Continent of Europe and beyond. I hope that hon. Members on both sides of the House will realise that they do a great disservice to the cause of British aviation if they seek to lump the good and bad operators together and to say that all independents are bad and all corporations good. This is not true. It is true that there are bad independent operators who ought to be rooted out, and nobody would be more pleased about that than the safe operators, but do not let us besmirch all independent operators with the slur which has been applied to them in recent weeks.
  6.35 p.m.
  Mr. Arthur Skeffington: I should not occupy the time of the House profitably if I commented on the argument about the real reasons for the sacking of a pilot, to which so much reference has been made. Those who have heard the speech of the hon. Member for Southend, East (Mr. McAdden) and that of my right hon. Friend the Member for Dundee, West (Mr. Strachey) will be the judges. On the whole, the case put, by way of illustration only, by my right hon. Friend was rather more convincing than the speech we have just heard from the hon. Member for Southend.
  I want to tackle the hon. Member for Southend, East about his remarks on the Minister's decision over the Air Licensing Board and B.O.A.C.'s appeal. The Minister and the Parliamentary Secretary are quite capable of defending themselves, but the hon. Member put forward a travesty of the reasons why the Minister came to his decision. It is true that one factor was the orders on hand
  1608
  for new aircraft, but I should have thought that the paramount reason which the Minister, absolutely properly and logically, took into account was that there is far too much aircraft capacity at the moment for the number of passengers available on the North Atlantic routes. This seems to me a predominant reason and one which completely justifies the decision.
  To have done what the hon. Member for Southend, East wanted would no doubt have given the opportunity for some operators to make some money, but it would certainly have further pushed B.O.A.C. into a difficult financial position. This might have suited the hon. Member's political philosophy, but I cannot see how it would have served the interests of the public or of British aviation. I think that in this matter the Minister has given an absolutely right decision in the interests of the country as a whole, which is the proper thing for the Minister to do.
  I am glad that we are having another opportunity of discussing some of the problems which inevitably arise from what is still our newest means of transport, evolving new techniques every day and operating continuously at higher speeds. These are bound to raise new problems, not only for operators but for the public and for all those who have to administer this great industry.
  Anyone who represents a constituency where there is an airport is only too well aware of the constant pre-occupation by all concerned with many of the problems of safety and amenity which arise. These problems are faced by the people who live near the airports, by those running the airports, by those operating the aircraft and, indeed, by the local authorities. I do not know whether it has ever been mentioned before, but I should like to place on record my appreciation of the local authorities in West Middlesex, where London Airport is situated. They have an unofficial airport committee which considers all the problems which confront them by reason of the existence of the airport.
  It is quite a voluntary body, but it approaches Ministers and Members from time to time about the problems and risks. It not only helps us to realise the practical consequences, but it must

  1609
  obviously draw the attention of the Ministry to matters of great importance. I hope, incidentally, that all those who are concerned with the day-to-day work of airports and airlines will never resent the fact that often in the House we draw attention to safety or amenity problems. We ignore them at our peril, and we must seek every opportunity to improve matters.
  A fortnight ago we had an interesting debate about the noise round airports, and, therefore, I do not need to detain the House on that subject today except in one respect. The Parliamentary Secretary told us on 15th November that although he had only recently been appointed to that post he had already taken the opportunity to spend a night at London Airport. There he had spent a perfectly good night and had had a sound sleep. This has considerably astonished me and a number of my constituents. [An HON. MEMBER: "He is a good sleeper."] No doubt he is, but I hope that that will not be so in the position which he now occupies.
  I have been inundated with requests to find out where it was that the hon. Gentleman spent that night. He said that it was at the airport, but he does not say whether it was in the middle of the airport, in which case he would not have suffered the kind of inconvenience which my constituents near the Bath Road suffer from the take-off of jet aircraft. I assume that he could not have been sleeping in one of the new luxury hotels nearby which are fitted with soundproof bedrooms. We should like to know where it was and what night it was. It might have been one of those foggy nights when all flights were cancelled. I hope that we shall have the information so that we may find out whether the hon. Gentlemen's experience that night was representative of the kind that some of my constituents have to endure.
  I saw this week that an unofficial working party has been established to consider the feasibility and practicability of moving London Airport. This would solve the noise problem satisfactorily for many of my constituents, but when one considers the vast financial investment in Heathrow which has made it one of the finest airports in the world, and the fact that over 30,000 people are employed
  1610
  there, obviously one cannot lightly consider such a possibility. It would mean a major upheaval.
  I know of very few places now within 50 to 100 miles of London which would be suitable and where there would not still be an element of danger and of nuisance. It will be interesting to see what conclusions the study group reach. I would think from a first glance that it is impracticable.
  I should like to refer to the safety aspects. Apart, of course, from the increasing number of people using air transport every year, this is a matter of considerable concern to those who live near airports. In my constituency we had a very near miss in connection with the Southall disaster which occurred a few years ago.
  I think that the public are perturbed about some of the points, one of which was raised by my right hon. Friend the Member for Dundee, West in opening the debate, concerning the responsibility for pilots knowing the routes being placed upon the operator rather than its being, as it were, a public responsibility. I agree with hon. Members opposite who have said that, normally, most of the independent operators are responsible people who take a very great deal of trouble in this matter. They would be most foolish and less than humane if they did not. I make no general charge against them. But I think that the speech of the hon. Member for Southend, East and others in defence of the private operator was almost too strong. They protested too much. No one lumps all the private operators together in the way that has been suggested.
  Sir A. V. Harvey: The hon. Member for Barnsley (Mr. Mason) did.
  Mr. Skeffington: I do not think that that has been the general tenor of the speeches made from this side of the House.
  On the particular matter of the pilot's knowledge of a route being the responsibility of the operator, I do not think that the Minister faced up to the problem. It is in the one case of where we may get an inefficient or indifferent operator that the danger will arise. It is not an easy problem to solve, and I would have thought that there should be some

  1611
  accountability wider than that of the operator in the first place. I hope that the Parliamentary Secretary will say something about that and about the point raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Barnsley in connection with Section 2 (4) of the Civil Aviation (Licensing) Act, to which he referred. I am sure that it cannot mean what my hon. Friend thought it meant. If it does mean that the Board do not have to take into account
  "…the competence of the applicant to secure that the aircraft operated by him will be operated safely."
  it makes nonsense of the whole Section. I cannot think that that is what the Act means. I hope that that point will be dealt with by the Parliamentary Secretary.
  I want to refer also to another of the conditions under which licences are granted under the Act. Under Section 2 (2, b) the Board has to be satisfied that there are adequate financial arrangements to meet damage to persons or property arising from the operation of the aircraft. I have had letters about recent disasters which indicate that this is not the position. It may be that negotiations will take a very long time to complete and that in the end everything will be satisfactorily settled, but the knowledge and information that I have been given so far about past accidents seem to indicate that there is a very considerable doubt as to financial liability and how far at the moment it can be legally enforced. I feel concerned about this. Apart from the general principle, I am sure that the House will always want justice to be done to those who suffer through no fault of their own. My hon. Friend the Member for Feltham (Mr. Hunter) and I moved an Amendment in Standing Committee the effect of which would have been to ensure that a kind of third party cover for the general public was provided under the Act.
  Group Captain Wilcock: My hon. Friend has raised such a very important point that I hope the House will forgive me for interrupting him to say that this question of insurance should be well known by the public so that they can protect themselves whether they are in the air or on the railways or travelling anywhere else. If there is a ques-
  1612
  tion of wilful negligence someone is responsible. The public should know that when travelling by air they should protect themselves by insurance. This is such an important matter that I have intervened to make that point clear.
  Mr. Skeffington: I am grateful to my hon. Friend and I hope that we shall get, in addition, a statement on what he has said from the Minister at the conclusion of the debate.
  Mr. A. E. Hunter: I think that the point we made was that there should be third party insurance for people if an aeroplane crashes on houses and people are killed.
  Mr. Skeffington: I am sorry if I did not make that clear. That was the purpose of the Amendment which my hon. Friend and I moved in Committee upstairs. We withdrew this on the understanding that subsection (2, b) covered the point, i.e.:
  "…provision made or proposed to be made against any liability in respect of loss or damage to persons or property which may be incurred in connection with aircraft operated by the applicant."
  If that is the case, I think that this would meet the point made by my hon. Friend and myself in relation to the problems that we have locally as well as those of general application. I cannot understand why it is, then, that there has been so much delay in settling claims where damage of that kind has arisen. If the position is fully covered legally, we shall be delighted, and if it is not I hope that we shall be told, so that we shall know what other steps ought to be taken to put the matter right. It may be that not all aircraft operators have been subjected to the Civil Aviation (Licensing) Act procedure. I do not know. But for those living and having property near airports this is an important matter.
  Like many other hon. Members, I have in my constituency a number of people who serve as air crew in private as well as other types of aircraft. I understand that these are rather isolated instances, and I do not want to say that this is always happening on a charter flight, but I think that everyone in the House of Commons was shocked that not only were some passengers left stranded on at least two occasions in

  1613
  Europe last summer, but that the staff of these companies, also, were left in a very serious position. On two occasions both staff and passengers had to be flown home by one of the despised Corporations.
  I have had constituents write to me saying that when they got back they found that they had lost not only their salary, but their job. I understood that under Section 2 of the Act adequate arrangements had been made about staff and I am sure that this refers not only to the provision of adequate staff for operating the aircraft but also to the financial arrangement of the concerns as a whole. This is a serious matter and I hope that we may hear from the Parliamentary Secretary that in future these incidents, whether by private or charter companies, are not likely to recur.
  I share the sentiments of the Amendment, which takes pride in the achievements of B.O.A.C. and B.E.A. I must say that I always feel very happy and safe when travelling in a Corporation aircraft. It is nice to be able to do something in practice of which one approves politically.
  6.50 p.m.
  Sir Arthur Vere Harvey: The House has listened with great interest to the speech of the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (Mr. Skeffington). I thought that his approach to the safety question was in great contrast to that of the hon. Member for Barnsley (Mr. Mason), whose speech was very regrettable in parts. At least the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington took the trouble to say that these unfortunate incidents were isolated cases. Such things happen in every walk of life. I have said on many previous occasions in the House that the regulations need tightening up. I go even further, and say that the charter or independent companies should have to prove their financial standing when they apply for licences or operate charter flights. There should be more strength behind them. The hon. Member referred to the question of noise, at London Airport, and we sympathise with him, but I understood him to say that, on balance, he would rather keep the airport where it is than move it elsewhere. I can understand that, because it brings considerable prosperity.
  1614
  I am sorry that the hon. Member for Barnsley is not in his place. He has referred to my not being in my place, but in 16½years I have missed only one main debate on aviation, military and civil—and that was due to illness. Typical of his wild statements about independent aircraft companies was his reference to pilots going off and flying aircraft which they had never flown before. That is absolutely wrong. A pilot must be trained. He must be checked out. He must do an instrument course. The most stringent regulations are laid down, and the private pilot has to fulfill the same conditions as do the pilots of B.E.A. or B.O.A.C. The rules are identical.
  The private airline pilot may not get the same amount of flying in the winter, but he is kept in training—and even Corporation pilots go off for a month's holiday on occasion. When they come back they are probably put on an instrument course and on the Link trainer, and so on. It does untold damage when an hon. Member makes sweeping allegations about certain companies and then refuses to name them. A Member has full privilege. It is not a question of his writing a letter to the Minister from outside, in which case he could be in difficulties. If the public are in real danger from flying under these conditions the hon. Member has a duty to name the companies concerned. He has denigrated professional pilots, many of whom have come up the hard way. They are mostly war-time pilots, who have to pass a very strict medical examination every six months. They live in fear of losing their licences if they fail to pass the examination, because their livelihood then goes. A speech like that of the hon. Member for Barnsley does not help to maintain the morale of these men. He referred to waste-paper basket pilots. I suggest that there are some waste-paper basket Members in the House. I would rather leave the matter there.
  Mr. Diamond: Names.
  Sir A. V. Harvey: I have only a very indirect interest in the matter now, through a holding company and not an operating company. Everybody is told that large profits are just around the corner, but it just has not happened. Companies both large and small have

  1615
  been operating on marginal profits, or even on no profits at all. We have now reached the stage where there is an overcapacity certainly on the North Atlantic route. It has been a question of one line competing with another to keep up with the Joneses.
  I recently looked up some documents to discover the number of different types of major aircraft operated by B.O.A.C. in recent years. During the last six years it has had the original Comet, which unfortunately met with some accidents, then it had the Stratocruisers and then the DC7c, which the House was assured would be sold for dollars. I imagine that they are being sold for sterling, at a very nominal price.
  Mr. Burden: As scrap.
  Sir A. V. Harvey: Yes, as scrap. Then there was the Britannia. We know the sad story of that aircraft. Today we have the Boeing 707 in addition to the new Comet, and we are expecting the VC10 in a year or two. It is rather like running an engineering company and changing the plant every eighteen months. How any airline can hope to keep out of financial difficulties when it changes equipment as often as that, I do not know. Many other types were used previously, apart from those that I have mentioned.
  Mr. Rankin: The hon. Member is exceptionally well informed in these matters. Is he suggesting that there should be a freezing of design among the operators?
  Sir A. V. Harvey: We can never freeze design—at least, I hope not. My criticism of B.O.A.C. is that until recently it has not had the technical people of sufficient calibre on its staff to estimate its forward requirements for aircraft. It talked in terms of using Princess flying boats and then changed its mind. It has gone from one type to another.
  British European Airways Corporation is not so complex. It is a smaller airline. But it handles its affairs with far greater efficiency.
  Mr. Chetwynd: It must be borne in mind that the operations on the long hauls are very different from those on the short hauls. All the long haul people have had precisely the same difficulty with their aircraft.
  Sir A. V. Harvey: I beg to differ. Qantas has had very few types, and this is an opportune moment to say that in over thirty years' operation it still has a clean sheet. That is a remarkable effort for an airline.
  The Minister has told us that B.O.A.C.'s loss this year will amount to about£10 million. Last year we heard of the disastrous financial results of the Scandinavian Airways System. It lost between£5 million and£7 million. But a loss of£10 million is very serious, especially when it is considered on top of all the previous losses which have occurred over so many years.
  Over the years we have also seen a deterioration of labour relations as between management and workers. At B.O.A.C. they are now deplorable.
  Mr. Rankin: Can the hon. Member tell us how much of the£10 million loss will be due to the associated companies which B.O.A.C. runs?
  Sir A. V. Harvey: I was coming to that. Many of my hon. Friends and I have begged B.O.A.C. to get rid of these associated companies, such as Bahamas Airways and its interest in Malayan Airways. We have repeatedly advised B.O.A.C. to concentrate on running its own routes. It can work with the other lines, but it should not have financial arrangements with them. Our repeated statements to this effect are on record in the Library.
  Mr. Rankin: Does the hon. Member suggest that B.O.A.C. should ignore Government instructions with regard to one associated company in particular?
  Sir A. V. Harvey: I do not know to which instruction the hon. Member is referring. He may refer to it when he makes his speech, if he is fortunate enough to catch the eye of the Chair.
  A short time ago we were told that B.O.A.C. engineering workshops were overstaffed to the extent of between 2,000 and 3,000 men. In those circumstances it is not surprising that large losses are made. I hope that my hon. Friend will be able to assure us that the position is improving. I am glad that Sir Matthew Slattery has been appointed chairman of B.O.A.C. He is a man whom we all admire. It may take some time to do it, but I hope that he will be able to put the Corporation on its feet.

  1617
  I now turn to the question of the associated companies. Many of the losses arise from their operations. In some cases they have cost the Corporation over£600,000 a year. B.O.A.C. evidently finds some advantages in these links, but I cannot see what the financial advantages can be. The Corporation says that it gets a traffic advantage out of it. But it loses masses of money—£500,000 here and£600,000 there. This is a very serious matter, and it requires to be looked into. However, the Corporation seems to be getting rid of some of its commitments.
  We are told that for the first six months of this year all the airlines operating on the North Atlantic route have lost about 20 million dollars. We must not be too depressed about that. I travelled back from Trinidad via New York at the end of June, and altogether there were only about twelve people in the aircraft. The President of the United States has asked American citizens to stay at home, following the recession. The Berlin problem is also scaring people away, besides the bombs that have been exploding in Austria and Paris. Many Americans have stayed at home.
  I read in The Times on Wednesday this short paragraph:
  "Rise in Atlantic air traffic. The proportion of available passenger seats occupied on scheduled airline services across the North Atlantic in October was the highest since Oct, 1960. According to the International Air Transport Association the figure was 59·2 per cent. This compares with 50·4 per cent. in September and 52·4 per cent. in August. The percentage in October, 1960, was 65·1."
  One has seen a steady growth over all the airlines for the past fourteen years. There is over-capacity at the moment, but I do not think that the growth of aviation will stop from now on. We may be going through a trough period, but it will undoubtedly recover.
  Like other hon. Members, I am concerned at the decision of my right hon. Friend, which I do not suppose he enjoyed having to take, regarding the Cunard Eagle company's application. I have mentioned that the traffic figures are increasing. We as a party have always tried to make a case for the independent operators. The right hon. Member for Dundee, West (Mr. Strachey) said he thought that there ought to be competition on the domestic routes. I suggest
  1618
  that parallel services might be run to Manchester by one of the independents. At times it is impossible at present to get a seat booked three weeks ahead and timekeeping is deplorable. I congratulate Lord Douglas and Mr. Millwood on winning the safety award and I acknowledge that they have a magnificent line. But over the last year I have noticed that B.E.A. has been slipping in some respects, and I have had many complaints from constituents and others about the mishandling of baggage and bad timekeeping. I always travel by air to my constituency and so I see that side of the organisation, and things need looking into.
  I am extremely sorry that it was necessary to make the decision which has been made regarding the Cunard application. We all had confidence in the Air Transport Advisory Board, and I do not think that that confidence has been diminished because of the reversal of a decision. I was glad of the assurance of my right hon. Friend that it is possible for another application to be made. Were I occupying the position of the chairman—I am glad that I am not—I should be glad to be relieved of this responsibility. It is fully realised that competition on the North Atlantic is coming from the air rather than from ships, and the old company with a great tradition has moved ahead to get into the air. I am sorry that this has happened and I hope that affairs will be adjusted so that another application may be made.
  The alarming thing is that B.O.A.C. will always be able to say that it has such and such equipment on order. What is to be done? If an independent line is successful it will have to take over the equipment. The same thing applies to British United Airways which has ordered the BAC111. I was told the other day that a number have been sold to Branff Airways of America off the drawing board with the possibility of a follow-on order.
  Where does a British company stand with an application if it is told that the Corporations have aircraft to see them through? This is a matter which must be worked out in a friendly way possibly by the independent operators taking over some of the aircraft. We have heard a lot today about independent

  1619
  companies flying parallel with the Corporations. I invite the Parliamentary Secretary to tell us, taking a weekly average over the last year, how many services the Americans operate in and out of London and how many are operated by B.O.A.C. There are two American airlines, Pan-American and Trans-World Airways and one British Corporation, and I have the impression that the Americans operate many more services out of Great Britain than B.O.A.C. If that is so, I should think the Minister's problems regarding bilateral arrangements would not be too difficult.
  We may pay a compliment to B.E.A. on its financial results. It has done very well despite severe competition. There has been a good policy regarding re-equipment, but B.E.A. must look to its laurels over small things.
  I hope that the Minister will tell us something about London Airport, where in the last six months there has been a considerable improvement by the rearrangement of seating accommodation. Passengers are looked after in a better way, but there is still a long way to go. During the recent strike of porters, I found it much easier to get on and off the aeroplanes than when the porters were present. We did not have to wait while the oldest lady passenger, probably suffering from arthritis, got down from the aeroplane. One carried one's bag and was away in a matter of minutes.
  Mr. Mason: The moral of that is to sack all the porters.
  Sir A. V. Harvey: Much has been said recently about landing fees. In an Adjournment debate recently I gave figures on this subject which the Minister said were not correct. But it has been more or less accepted that when a Boeing 707 lands at London Airport with 78 passengers the total charges amount to£361. I know it is a complicated arrangement, but at Idlewild the charges amount to£260. I think it very unfortunate that because London Airport has been badly run administratively over the years we have to hit the airlines with almost the top charge in the world to try to make ends meet. We shall have every other airport following suit and there will be a race
  1620
  to see which can charge the most. I have never been happy about this situation.
  Remarks have been made about independent operators, and, as I said earlier, there are one or two which may be singled out as not being very good. But some of the independent operators have done a magnificent job. The public is sometimes confused about the age of an aeroplane. Although a Dakota may be twenty to twenty-five years old, it is probably the case that, apart from its registration marks, it is not the same aeroplane that it was twenty years ago. Practically every part will have been renewed over the years. But it is not a pressurised aircraft. It has a twin-engine performance. I question whether, at certain times of the year and with a full load, it is the right aeroplane for certain routes. It is a remarkably safe aeroplane for most routes, but when it is necessary to get above dirty weather it is questionable whether the Dakota is the right aeroplane for going over the Alps or for making similar journeys.
  I take comfort from the fact that in Britain we have a pretty good aircraft industry. It has contracted because there are fewer orders for military aircraft. We are grateful for that because we do not wish to construct military aircraft for the sake of building them. We have some wonderful types coming into production. The VC10 is the most incredible aeroplane the world has ever seen, and I am sure that it will be a winner. We have other types coming on, and if B.O.A.C. can tidy up its affairs and get down to operating at a profit, with the other Corporation and with the good independent operators we shall have something to show the world. I wish my right hon. Friend and his new Parliamentary Secretary every success in the great enterprise ahead of them.
  7.10 p.m.
  Group Captain C. A. B. Wilcock: It is a pleasure to speak after the hon. Member for Macclesfield (Sir A. V. Harvey), not because I necessarily agree with him, but because he knows his subject and always has something very interesting to contribute from practical knowledge.
  I thought that in the speeches of some of my colleagues there was a very unfortunate inference—it was made by

  1621
  my right hon. Friend the Member for Dundee, West (Mr. Strachey), who opened the debate, and my hon. Friend the Member for Barnsley (Mr. Mason)—that there is some difference between the pilots and crews of independent companies and those of State Corporations. They said in a rather derogatory manner that the independent companies had taken on three pilots who had left the Corporations. I believe that my hon. Friend the Member for Barnsley even wanted an inquiry. He is very interested in coal. I do not know whether he wants an inquiry every time a coal miner goes from one coal mine to another. This is an absolute witch hunt.
  Independent airline pilots have the same standing, the same knowledge and status, and, it may interest my hon. Friend to know, the same pay as those in the Corporations. They must qualify in the same manner. The majority of the pilots, either in the Corporations or in the independent companies, are, of course, even today, from the Royal Air Force, and I should like to give this comfort to the many people, including our constituents, who travel by independent airlines on holidays. I do not know what they will think if they read reports of the speeches of certain hon. Members in this debate. I do not propose to try to defend the policy of Her Majesty's Government. That will be done by the Ministers and hon. Members opposite. I do not agree with much that they do, but I should like to speak from the receiving end.
  As I have not done so yet, I now declare a very personal interest in aviation, in an independent company. Therefore, may I, from the receiving end as it were, explain how the Act we are discussing is working. The question has been asked, are the independents financially stable? An inquiry is being held by the Ministry and by accountants, very astute ones, into every independent company. They are pulling every independent company's finances and balance sheets to pieces. As a result, in the last fortnight one or two of the companies concerned have found that it is not advisable to continue operating, presumably on advice or because they have had an idea that they might not be getting a favourable report. That inquiry is going on now, and it is an excellent thing, because it will mean that
  1622
  the companies which are left are stable and able to look after the public. If anything goes wrong with their operations they can guarantee passengers being brought back from the Continent.
  I hope the Minister will note that this financial inquiry applies to aviation companies. I have not heard that Her Majesty's Government have the right to inquire minutely into the financial affairs of non-aviation concerns, even when they have Government contracts. I do not object to this being done, but it seems to be done only in aviation. Is it being done in the case of foreign aviation operators? Of course it is not. I hope that my hon. Friends who very severely criticise British independent operators will remember that foreign operators come to this country and take our passengers out and bring them back, yet presumably they are not under the jurisdiction of the Ministry of Aviation and their finances are not questioned. I hope the Minister will give that matter some attention.
  No independent operator can operate without a licence. That is mentioned in the Act. The obtaining of a licence is not easy and not automatic. Inspectors from the Ministry visit the organisation and investigate the pilots, the chartering arrangements and the briefing organisation, and assure themselves that there are the necessary number of technical personnel available in the various trades. If a company is successful in obtaining a licence it has a high standard. This was not so in the past. I address my remarks particularly to my hon. Friend the Member for Barnsley, because I agree that there may have been things in the past which were not satisfactory, but that is not the case today. Under the new Act, all this is well looked after.
  Further, no independent operator can obtain a licence to maintain his aircraft unless it is granted by the Air Registration Board. There is another set of very skilful people who investigate everything, the kind of equipment, the quantity of the personnel and so on. I hope the House will realise that it is now far from easy to obtain these licences, and the inference that pilots may come from some other occupation and immediately take up flying is quite ridiculous.
  Mr. Mason: I am peering into the mist while my hon. Friend may be in the

  1623
  light. Unlike my hon. Friend, I have no vested interest. In making my case, I would assume that many people would give me as good, if not more of, a hearing than would be given to one with a particular vested interest, but is it not true that some independent airlines are using in peak periods pilots who have not worked during the rest of the year?
  Group Captain Wilcock: That may be so, but nevertheless they have to be passed by the Ministry in precisely the same way as a B.O.A.C. pilot. Many B.E.A. and B.O.A.C. pilots are off duty for months in the winter. My hon. Friend will know that traffic is not as heavy for B.E.A. or B.O.A.C. in winter and, therefore, some of the pilots are not flying. There is no comparison he can make here which is to the detriment of the independent airline pilots. I should like to make clear to my hon. Friend—what has been said by the Minister—that there is absolutely no difference in the regulations governing aircrew, none whatever.
  I hope the Minister will look at the question of foreign operators. It is becoming extremely difficult for an independent operator to operate successfully in this country today. Many regulations are in the interests of safety, and that is good, but the foreign operator comes in and how do we compete with him? Does he have flight limitations which the British operator has? No, he does not. Neither does he have to contend with inspections by these forty-seven or more inspectors referred to. Indeed, one does not know how the aircraft of a foreign operator are maintained. I am not referring particularly to the national State lines of Europe, but to the independent operators. I hope we do not drift into the position in which the air traffic of this country is captured by foreign operators whose standards are lower than those of British operators. I leave that point with the Minister, hoping that he will investigate this.
  The question of safety has been mentioned very often today. Of course, safety is what we all aim at, operators and passengers. We strive for it and take every care to find it, but there is no rule, nothing we can grasp, to show Why there are accidents in the air. There have been accidents with Boeings,
  1624
  Comets, Viscounts, Caravelles. We do not think that age can be the answer. What is age? Is it years, the number of hours flying, the climate, the number of landings? How do we judge age? Is 10,000 hours flying at 150 miles an hour less or more dangerous than 1,000 hours at 500 miles an hour? Our passengers are protected because of the continual inspections which take place. There is an inspection after so many days and so many flying hours, and there is a very comprehensive inspection after six months. These inspections are under the supervision of the Ministry and the Air Registration Board. Passengers can be confident. We know that the aircraft is safe, and we know that the pilots and crews are proficient because they have to undergo tests by the Ministry, whether they are employed by B.E.A., B.O.A.C. or by an independent company.
  A very interesting question is whether there is a particular hazard in charter flying. Charter flying must be divided into two categories, namely, inclusive tours and ordinary ad hoc charters. Reference was made to an accident at Perpignon, in which my company was unfortunately concerned. This was not a charter flight in that sense. It was one of a series of flights. The aircraft and the crew had been there many times and every week. The important question is: what is a charter flight and what is not a charter flight?
  There may be risks in the ordinary ad hoc charter flight. I do not know, and I should not like to say. Perhaps the Minister will give this matter a thought. If one leaves the House and hails a taxi, one cannot ask the driver if he has been to the destination before. We cannot have a system in which aeroplanes and pilots can fly only to certain places. The difference between going by taxi and going by aeroplane is that the pilot has to hand in his route chart when he leaves the aerodrome. He has to obtain approval to fly at a certain height in a certain direction. The taxi driver does not have to do anything like that. That is where the safeguard is in flying.
  None of us can put a finger on a certain aspect of flying and say that it is dangerous. There is an element of danger in flying. Unfortunately there always will be; but there are accidents

  1625
  on the road. There will always be accidents where there is speed. I am as anxious as all hon. Members to reduce the number of accidents to the minimum.
  I want finally to talk about the Corporations. Independent operators are not against the Corporations. We know that they are State instruments. We want them to do well and compare favourably with other State instruments. This has always been our attitude. The Corporations do well. We think highly of them. We are not against them in any way, but there are some tasks they cannot do. Hon. Members should be very careful about criticising independent operators. Their constituents may not agree with them that they are not useful and not wanted. The hon. Member for Macclesfield spoke about flying to Manchester. Manchester is one of the worst places to get to by air via B.E.A. Every Member of Parliament who represents Manchester knows that this is true.
  Sir A. V. Harvey: Three weeks!
  Group Captain Wilcock: If my company failed and went the way some hon. Members may like to see it go, there would be no local flying from Nottingham, Leicester, Derby, Burton and Sheffield, because B.E.A. cannot fly from those places. Therefore, hon. Members should be careful and consider the interests of the general public when they criticise independent air operators.
  Both Corporations are doing a sound job, but I wish that we had only one Corporation. If the Minister wants economy with efficiency, he should consider having only one Corporation. There is no reason why there should not be only one. The Corporations do not need to be in competition with each other. They do different jobs. They could form different sections of one Corporation. There is no point in having two.
  The Corporations and the independents both have a vital place. They must both prosper, because we want a second line in the air. We must have that. It suits the requirements of the nation to have State Corporations and private independent concerns, and I hope that we shall continue this policy.
  7.25 p.m.
  Mr. John Eden: The hon. and gallant Member for Derby, North (Group Captain Wilcock) spoke with great moderation and conviction on behalf of the independent airlines. I am sure that the whole House was impressed by what he said. I am sure that it is his wish, as it is the wish of all hon. Members, that the travelling public should be reassured on this issue and not misled by some of the allegations which were made earlier on in the debate.
  I will not follow the hon. and gallant Gentleman in his remarks about independent airlines generally. I want, first, briefly to dispose of the issue of the Minister's recent decision in the Cunard Eagle case. I do so because I want to clarify one point. It has been brought to my attention that in his report the Commissioner gave this as the first reason for his recommendation:
  "In my opinion the central feature of this Appeal is that…the Board accepted the evidence…that the Appellant had reasonably entered into financial commitments notably in regard to aircraft purchases, designed to cater for all the traffic which might reasonably have been expected on the route licensed and all other routes over the next five or six years."
  In his letter upholding the Commissioner's decision, the Minister made considerable reference to this reason.
  This aspect needs further clarification. I refer to the comments about
  "all other routes over the next five or six years"
  and
  "designed to cater for all the traffic which might reasonably have been expected".
  What was not made clear earlier on in the debate was that the Cunard Company, for which I hold no brief whatsoever, had committed itself as early as March to the purchase of three Boeings. The Corporation in its evidence made it clear that it was only during the ten days ending 27th May, which was within one week of the hearing, that it committed itself to the purchase of three more Boeings.
  This point should be emphasised and inquired into. The Cunard Company, before making the initial application, entered into commitments for the purchase of aircraft to cope with traffic on the route it was applying to fly. Yet its

  1627
  application was contested by the Corporation which, subsequent to the application and only one week before the hearing, itself purchased more aircraft and used that as a principal reason why its appeal should be upheld. This is not altogether satisfactory, and I put it no higher than that. We have heard no reference to this, but I hope to be assured that this aspect will be seriously considered, if it has not already been considered.
  There are many other aspects of the Minister's decision with which I could deal, but I will not deal with them because I know that a number of hon. Gentlemen wish to take part in the debate. I will conclude this part of my remarks by asking the Minister, or my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary, to give an assurance that the independents which are seeking to run parallel services with those of the Corporation will not have to wait until the Corporation's financial structure is sounder before they have a chance of getting their applications granted. There was a slight inference of that in my right hon. Friend's remarks, when he gave as one of the additional reasons for his upholding the Commissioner's decision the fact that the Corporation is today not in very good financial circumstances and that further competition would make those circumstances worse rather than better.
  I take a much more hopeful view of the general expansion of traffic across the Atlantic and elsewhere. I believe that air traffic is likely to increase, and I hope that the independent companies get their share of that increase. It is important that they should not just take part of what is at present there but should aim to get a share of the increase in air traffic which is bound to come—
  Mr. Rankin: Would not the hon. Gentleman agree that B.O.A.C. was applying for routes that it was operating, while Cunard Eagle proposed to purchase aircraft for routes it had not yet got?
  Mr. Eden: Yes, I agree.
  It will be well known to hon. Members that Bournemouth has a considerable interest in the development of flying and of the aircraft industry as a whole. Not
  1628
  only have we an airport, in whose future those of us in those parts are most closely concerned, but we have a number of branches of the aircraft factories. I want to refer to both of them, and in case my hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth, East and Christchurch (Mr. Cordle) does not have the good fortune to be called later I should like to make it quite clear that he is fully associated in my remarks and that we are together doing our utmost to try to present to the Minister and to the House the concern that our constituents now feel.
  First, I shall make a few comments of my own about the Bournemouth airport and its future. The Minister will recall that this was one of the airports mentioned in Cmnd. 1547 as coming within category Group II; in other words, it is an airport that it is hoped will be taken over by either the Bournemouth and Christchurch local authorities together or by some consortium of interested local authorities in and around that area.
  This was, and still is, legally, a Ministry airport, and the Ministry has for some time been considering building a new airport terminal. That project has been under consideration now for just over two years, and I understand that in that time the likely cost of the new building has risen from about£300,000 to about£600,000. It was hoped that this airport terminal building would be ready to cater for the travelling public in 1963. This is a very important factor, because not only is there the domestic traffic around Hurn, but the Bournemouth-Hurn airport is a vital second line of defence for aircraft which cannot, owing to weather conditions, make any of the London airports. On those occasions the aircraft very frequently come down at Hurn, where the weather is generally better and clearer.
  My right hon. Friend will know that the airport's facilities are most inadequate. That is why it has long been planned to have a new terminal building there. I understand that this work is to be further delayed. Because there is to be a change in the ownership of the airport the Ministry has apparently dropped all its plans for the new buildings, and we will be lucky if the new building is begun in 1963, let alone completed by then. If my hon. Friend cannot

  1629
  refer to this in his reply tonight, perhaps he will look into it and let me have an answer in due course.
  The other and most important aspect of the issues before the House concerns Bournemouth, Christchurch and neighbouring constituencies—
  Mr. Diamond: And Gloucester.
  Mr. Eden: —and is similar to the problem touched on by the hon. Lady the Member for Flint, East (Mrs. White). It also concerns other constituencies, as the hon. Member for Gloucester (Mr. Diamond) has just mentioned. It relates to the future of the Hawker-Siddeley group and, in particular, to the factories of that group that are now working for the De Havilland Aircraft Company.
  The group as a whole has quite clearly decided on a course of contraction. I am sure that the whole House will recognise that necessary and economically sound though that may well be, it will cause the greatest human disturbance to those who have been working in the outlying factories, and I want to put to the Minister some of the points of view that have been put to me and my hon. Friend—and, no doubt, to other hon. Members—by the representatives of the men who work in those factories.
  Despite the possibly serious consequences for the men which might arise from the group's decision, they take an extremely adult and mature view of the situation. These men are knowledgeable and highly intelligent. They can sense what is happening, and their chief anxiety today is that they should be told quite clearly by the management exactly what is happening. I believe that, certainly in the Christchurch factory, the management will make a statement tomorrow. If that is the case, I hope that the management will take these men into their confidence and make abundantly clear to them what the future is for all of them—grim though that statement may be—because there is nothing more demoralising and discouraging than to have such a prospect hanging over one's head week after week without knowing exactly what will happen or how one will be able to face up to one's fate.
  The men have also asked a number of extremely pertinent questions, some of which I want to try to put to the House.
  1630
  De Havilland's Portsmouth factory makes the earlier stages of the Sea Vixen. It has been stated that that factory will close down early next year. Five hundred of the men have already, of their own volition, left that employment and, I am thankful to say, have managed to find alternative work in the area. What will happen to that work on the Sea Vixen when the factory closes? Will it be dispersed—with all respect to the hon. Member for Flint, East—to Broughton? Might it not be better dispersed to Christchurch, where de Havilland is already engaged in the manufacture of the Sea Vixen? The Sea Vixen is a fine aircraft in service with the Royal Navy and the Fleet Air Arm. In a de Havilland Company publication of last August it was referred to in these words:
  "With its Firestreak and other armament, the Sea Vixen is one of the most sophisticated integrated weapons system now available and one which has considerable scope for further development."
  I should, therefore, like my right hon. Friend to look into what scope for further development exists for this sophisticated guided weapons system. What further demand is there for it by the Royal Navy, and will he examine what scope exists for a fixed wing version of the Sea Vixen in the R.A.F. which, I understand, will be a requirement of that Service and could provide sufficient work at least for a short time to come?
  The factory at Christchurch should not be allowed to carry on at the present rate of producing one aircraft a month—an unsatisfactory and obviously uneconomic proposition, If a decision is made, either within the next few weeks or months to close this factory or a substantial part of it, the works programme should cater for at least three aircraft to be produced a month to make it worthwhile for the men to remain in the employ of that company.
  The DH121 Trident, already mentioned in the debate, has been on order by B.E.A. It was tailor made for B.E.A. according to the specifications required, and it appears that it will be more difficult to sell it to other airlines than might have bean the case had this not been done. It is a fine looking aircraft, and that is as far as I am prepared to go today. There is a longer version of the DH121 Trident which might be suitable

  1631
  for other airlines, if the B.E.A. specification is not, and Christchurch would be interested to hear what comments the Minister might make on this matter.
  Another aircraft on which we have placed a certain amount of hope is the small DH125—the "top brass" aircraft which was refereed to by the hon. Lady the Member for Flint, East. This small jet "Dove" replacement clearly has a great future and it is the type of aeroplane which would be especially suitable for a small factory like Christchurch, where about 2,000 people are employed and where a small landing ground or airstrip is available.
  I put this point forward in the hope that the Minister, when replying, will say something generally about the future of the Hawker-Siddeley Group. One cannot help sympathising with the opinions of the men employed in the de Havilland companies. They are naturally dismayed at the consequences of the reorganisation which has been forced on them by Government policy. They were led to believe—and we all believed and still hope it to be so—that it was the Government's intention to stand behind the reorganised industry. In fact, my right hon. Friend referred to it in his speech earlier.
  It may be that the reorganisation is not yet complete. If so, may we have a clear statement to that effect, if not from the Minister then from the company concerned? If it is felt necessary still further to contract the company in order to take advantage of such orders that come their way—initiated in the main by my right hon. Friend—the company must now give a clear statement of its intentions and aims.
  It is with some justification that the representatives of the de Havilland part of the corporation, and perhaps of others, should ask what has happened, since the merger just over a year ago, that has so dramatically changed the position. Is it conceivable that had the merger not taken place the de Havilland Company would have been in a stronger position than it is today? Or is it the case that the merger—or the consequences we are now seeing of it—were in any way inevitable? If so, we should do well to hear just what is the forecast for the future and to face the realistic facts as we are told them, and not to delude ourselves
  1632
  into believing that we can limp on any longer with the group as it is, in its present size.
  As to the future of the aircraft industry generally, my right hon. Friend has talked about the supersonic programme and the need for the inter-nationalisation of some of our aircraft manufacturing companies. This is a difficult one to swallow—the inter-nationalisation question—because it almost inevitably means that some parts of British aircraft will be built on the mainland of Europe. This is something which we may have to face, but perhaps my right hon. Friend can say more about it. Are we, in fact, now to start thinking in terms of the British domestic home market as being not just confined to these islands but to include the mainland of the Continent of Europe?
  Do my right hon. Friend's remarks mean that in the days to come we shall not be exporting to the Continent of Europe but that that area will be part of our home market? If so, I can see a sort of argument for inter-nationalisation, but I can also see that further amalgamation and grouping are likely to take place. If that is correct, it raises the question of whether we are better served by two separate British air frame groups or whether we should amalgamate the British element into a single unit to give perhaps still greater strength. This may require further heart-searching decisions and even more contraction within the industry.
  I agree that we must decide now what kind of industry we would like to have and what type of aircraft construction industry we wish to see develop in Britain. We should also consider what kind of aircraft industry we can afford. But perhaps even more important—in some cases certainly so—we should consider what we cannot afford to do without in the aircraft industry developments which are taking place. This is especially important, not just for the aircraft industry and for those at present employed in it but for the whole of Britain's engineering industry. The aircraft industry's research and development programmes are among the leading activities in the engineering field from which many other industries have benefited in the past and stand to benefit a great deal in the future.

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  In my opinion, it is vital for the economy of our country in all its aspects and ramifications that we should continue to have as strong an aircraft industry as we possibly can. What exactly should be its form and what precisely should be the nature of its structure, I am not at this point competent to say. I am aware only of the fact that in trying to secure the strength of the industry, which I am sure is the principle aim of my right hon. Friend, there will be involved the taking of some heart-aching human decisions. I hope that my right hon. Friend will not overlook them. More than that, I ask my hon. Friend to assure me and other hon. Members who are equally concerned in this aspect of the matter that he and his colleagues in the Ministry of Labour and the Board of Trade are not just watching but are anticipating what will take place and are ready to move in at a moment's notice to give the maximum assistance that Government Departments can and, indeed, ought to give in circumstances of this kind.
  7.51 p.m.
  Mr. John Rankin: I could carry on almost from the point at which the hon. Member for Bournemouth, West (Mr. Eden) ended, because I agree with him that what we need in the aviation industry today is a plan. The sooner we have that plan, the better will it be for the industry.
  Today, the Minister has heard demands from certain parts of England. I shall add to those by making a demand from Scotland. Yesterday—I hope that the Parliamentary Secretary is aware of its contents—we received copies of a Report by a Committee which met under the chairmanship of Mr. Toothill. In that Report we find emphasis placed on the need "for fast and frequent air services, with adequate accommodation available at reasonably short notice, to many parts of Britain and to the Continent, and for new services to potential growth-points within Scotland not at present served".
  The Committee goes on to add the recommendation that, if necessary, there should be an
  "outright subsidy to provide these services".
  All this is for the development of the Scottish economy. As we all know, the
  1634
  Scottish economy is in a serious position. Unemployment in Scotland is as bad as, and in many places worse than, unemployment in certain parts of England which have been mentioned today. The Toot-hill Committee sought to devise a plan which would help towards the solution or, at least, the alleviation of our difficulties.
  Having had those difficulties in mind for some considerable time, on 7th November I put a Question to the Prime Minister, asking him whether
  "he would instruct the Ministers of Transport and Aviation to consider in which sphere of overseas transport a subsidy from public funds could be most advantageously applied in view of the transition now taking place from surface to air transport, and to report to him accordingly".—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 7th November, 1961; Vol. 648, c. 797.]
  The transition is here. No one doubts that. It is happening not only on the overseas routes, but on our internal routes. One result is that British European Airways finds itself faced with opposition from the British Transport Commission because it is operating low fares and fast transit on the London-Glasgow and other routes. B.O.A.C., because of the high speed and great capacity of its latest aircraft adds to the problem of shipping and to some extent contributed to the abandonment of the Q.3. However, these speeds introduce a new factor into our economic problems which, if properly used, may help towards an easier solution.
  Glasgow is no longer 400 miles away from London; it is only 1 hour and 15 minutes flying time away by the Vanguard. Paris and Brussels are little more than three hours away. Physical proximity to London is not now as important as it used to be, and, therefore, the dispersal of industry and the development of new industries should become more widespread, provided that air transport for persons and freight is made available.
  The transition from surface to air is bringing difficulties to the production side of industry. Workers in shipbuilding, on the railways and in aviation are all affected. The two former categories, of course, do not enter into our consideration tonight, but the last one does and, from what we have heard so far, the problem is very serious.

  1635
  In April this year, the Government published their White Paper on the Financial and Economic Obligations of the Nationalised Industries, and in it they asked the air Corporations to plan a financial programme for five years ahead. It is equally pertinent, I think, for me to ask the Minister whether he has a five years programme of development for the aviation industry. If he has not, why not? I go further and ask him to consider, in association with the Minister of Transport, what steps are necessary to safeguard the future of those employed in the three great industries I have mentioned. Apparently, the Prime Minister has not so far seen the need to institute such an inquiry. I hope that the Minister of Aviation will, before it is too late.
  The Common Market is not the way out. I listened to the right hon. Gentleman telling us today about the possibilities of the future, the new types of aircraft, the VTOL, the Rotodyne, the supersonic, and so on. These are all developments of the future. But the Minister has linked them with Europe. He spoke about international developments because he felt that a group of nations could do the job far better than one nation could. But he was not thinking in international terms. He was thinking in European terms. I wonder whether the right hon. Gentleman is thinking against the background of our being already in the Common Market and whether the possibilities he envisaged today will be achieved only if we enter the Common Market. If that be the case, I should like to ask him who exactly will own the aircraft and who will operate them.
  On Monday of this week, I asked the right hon. Gentleman to think of his own responsibilities to this country in these matters. The industry with which he is specially concerned faces serious unemployment. That has been made manifest to him today. In fact, in some cases, unemployment is here. So I asked him about the vertical take-off and landing aircraft. He agreed with me that the firms concerned in this development have done lots of research. He also agreed with me that we are far ahead of the rest of the world. But the industry cannot live on research and on the possibilities that the right hon.
  1636
  Gentleman outlined today. Industry must have orders, and evidently, as far as I am informed, those orders are not forthcoming. Are we subject to the Germans in that regard? Are we now passing under their control where orders are concerned? Can he be helpful in this matter and say why the Royal Air Force is prevented from ordering existing designs of the British VTOL aircraft? I am pressing him for an answer to that question.
  Then, there is the Mach 2 supersonic machine, which has already been mentioned, and while it may offer no great help to alleviate our immediate industrial worry, because of the fact that it is a long-term proposition, nevertheless, the decision to proceed with its development will have a wonderful psychological effect on those who are now unemployed and on those who are fearing unemployment in the aviation industry.
  Next, there is the contribution to production through the civil side of aviation. B.E.A. has its plans for new aircraft, but the applications of the independents to operate in parallel with it, sometimes by more than one airline over the same route, cover services to well over half the points served by B.E.A. That is from the Report. The applications currently under consideration represent passenger operations with a revenue-earning potential of over£7 million in 1965–66, so that the Corporation at the moment cannot feel sure that the aircraft which it already has on order will actually be required in the years that lie ahead.
  This uncertainty is also affecting the employment situation, because, naturally, there is a tendency on the part of the operational Corporations to be restrictive in their attitude towards development. These words apply to B.O.A.C. In its Report, the Corporation emphasises that the Civil Aviation (Licensing) Act does not require the Licensing Board to make room for independent companies at the expense of B.O.A.C. The Corporation believes that the Board is directed to exercise its functions in such a manner as to further the development of British civil aviation, so it properly points out in its Report that this would not be achieved by curtailing the Corporation's development of its routes.

  1637
  Thinking thus and accepting the "assurances" given to it, the Corporation went ahead with its plans for Vickers VC10s to the value of over£150 million, with delivery between 1963 and 1966. These orders, if they mature, are bound to provide employment for thousands of British workers, but the importance of that statement is how did B.O.A.C. come to get the assurance and who gave it? If it got it, why was it broken before the Licensing Board?
  However the Corporation's plans are not to be upset, and that is due to the Minister. I want to congratulate him on what he has done, and I trust that he will continue on the sensible course which he has set for himself. If we can add together all the sources of work which I have indicated for those engaged in the industry, spice it with the planning of Mr. Peter Masefield and serve it up with some thoughtful encouragement from the right hon. Gentleman and the Government, I think that the future of British aviation on the productive and operational sides should be a bright one indeed.
  But I trust that if that position is achieved, the sun will shine not only in England. Scotland has long asked for a share in the building of aircraft. It does not want to be kept all the time merely as a little repair shop, doing the odd jobs of the industry. These are some of the things that are covered in the Report to which I have already referred. The Scottish economy today demands the consideration that I have indicated, and I hope that the Minister of Aviation will do his part and keep what I have said in mind if the industry does achieve a different sort of future.
  Mr. James Dempsey: I wonder whether the Minister realises that many apprentices in Scotland have to complete their apprenticeship training in Wales and in the south of England. Is it not rather far-fetched for the products of the finest educational system in Britain, because of the lack of an aviation industry in Scotland, to have to move to the South to complete their training?
  Mr. Rankin: I am sure that the Government Front Bench will have noted the force of that intervention from my hon. Friend.
  1638
  May I now look briefly at the operational side of the industry. I have here a copy of the Glasgow Evening News of 22nd November, 1946, in which these words appear:
  "Monday last"—
  that was the Monday of the week ended 22nd November, 1946—
  "should have been a day of ceremony. There should have been lord provosts, flags and bands; cheering, waving, and 'happy landings'. But of these there were none. Just a drab, rainy, November day, illumined by an occasional flicker of sunshine. Yet the occasion was historic. Aberdeen was coming closer to London, Glasgow and Prestwick. Our pathway was the air; the Dakota our instrument; airborne from Northolt at 10.4 a.m., she slipped from her envelope of darkness, and settled on the same runway again at 5.49 p.m., smoothly and sweetly as a bird."
  It was an historic occasion, and I described it in those words in that article. What I have read is only part of the article; I shall not read all of it.
  B.E.A. has been criticised today. It has been criticised in the Toothill Report for not meeting the requirements of business and industry. Fifteen years ago, it started this service from Aberdeen to Glasgow and London, so that we were able to leave Aberdeen and return on the same day. The service could not continue because it did not receive support from the business community in Scotland to enable B.E.A. to go on with it. I am glad to say that recently a Viscount service has been established from Aberdeen to London. It is being well supported, and the president of the Aberdeen Chamber of Commerce has complimented our nationalised Corporation on the efficiency and adequacy of the service.
  I hope that business is now waking up to the fact that a good service is provided from Scotland to many parts of the United Kingdom and to the Continent, and that in Scotland we have 12 operating stations for aircraft as against three in England. London is a United Kingdom station. So we are adequately fitted on the aviation side to meet business developments in Scotland.
  I said, on 1st March, 1949:
  "We have to think of a new type of air travel which I have called second-class air travel, although I do not like the phrase 'second class'."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 1st March, 1949; Vol. 462, c. 291.]

  1639
  In those days too many people thought of air transport as being above the heads of ordinary persons in every sense of the word. Now we approach it along different lines and seek to find fare structures which are acceptable to the great mass of people. We have economy, tourist, emigrant and excursion fares as well as first-class fares on the overseas routes, with the result that more than three-quarters of the 785,000 passengers carried on scheduled routes by B.O.A.C. in 1960–61 travelled either economy class or at some other cheaper rate. This was done on the very latest types of aircraft, and was made possible because of their high speed and great capacity.
  What is true of B.O.A.C. is equally true of B.E.A. This organisation has given us excursion fares, off-peak fares, commodity rates for freight, eight-day week-end fares, inclusive tour fares, because of speedier and larger aircraft and to the advantage of the Corporation Whose domestic passenger traffic as a result increased by 27 per cent. this year over last year. In that respect, B.E.A. has done a splendid job. It provided services to the Western Isles which are indispensable, at a loss this year of£280,000. It can do this only if it makes profits on other routes. But these routes are the ones to which the independent companies are now laying claim, although in fairness, I should say that one of them sought to operate the Benbecula and Stornoway route with a six-seater aircraft. But I believe that it went bankrupt before its claim was reached.
  Many applications remain. All of them wanting to share in the juicy parts of the roast. But if any decisions are taken which handicap B.E.A. in providing uneconomic though indispensable services to the Western Isles or on the Irish sea routes, then, in the long run, the Government, from the public purse, will require to rectify as best they can the economic and social disasters which follow. I hope that the Parliamentary Secretary will note that the£700,000 loss on the domestic routes is borne only because of the surplus obtained on the international routes.
  I therefore feel that this House should pay tribute to the work of these great public Corporations. They have shown
  1640
  an admirable spirit of adventure. The reports before us fully demonstrate the truth of that. It is the duty of the Government to give them every support and encouragement to meet the tasks which lie before them.
  8.18 p.m.
  Mr. R. J. Maxwell-Hyslop: So far in this debate, hon. Members have been primarily concerned with the provision of safe and efficient services and the effect of recent legislation upon the interests of the British air transport industry. Air safety is a subject which can cover a large number of aspects. I think that they can be divided into two categories—first, the equipment element, and, secondly, the procedural element.
  From the point of view of equipment, I think that the case is substantially proven that aircraft running on aviation kerosene show a considerable safety advantage when they have the misfortune to have an accident over aircraft running on gasolene. The case which immediately springs to mind is that of the Comet 4 operated by an Argentinian airline which hit the ground at about 130 knots in the Republic of Paraguay when the pilot misread the altimeter. Although the wing tanks burst all over the engines, there was no fire, with the result that all but one of the passengers who died of heart failure survived. There are numerous instances now of aircraft using kerosene having been involved in an accident without fire resulting.
  This is a relatively new development in our aviation operations. Lord Brabazon of Tara has alluded to this in his capacity on the Air Registration Board. Even if we are unable completely to prevent accidents from occurring, this is one manner in which it is reasonable to suppose that we can mitigate their effects when they do occur. A corollary of this is that all piston-engined aircraft operate on gasoline. They cannot operate on kerosene. Therefore, to start with, there is a fundamentally greater risk in the case of the piston-engined aircraft because of the nature of the fuel which is employed.
  The second equipment aspect, excluding reliability, which is not a suitable subject for debate, is the provision of navigational aids. Although we are unlikely to be able to prevent all

  1641
  accidents on landing and take-off due to the time span in which they occur and in which a pilot error may be irrecoverable, or a minor equipment fault may manifest itself too rapidly for the pilot to take corrective action, nevertheless, in the case of collision with topographical objects, there is equipment which can be provided in the way of radar which should render this quite unnecessary.
  In both the recent accident in the Pyrenees and the accident in Norway, the aircraft ran into a physical part of the ground which would have shown on a radar screen had the aircraft been equipped with it. This opens the question of what should be the minimum size of aircraft. If one uses very old and heavily depreciated—in the financial sense—aircraft, it may not pay financially to equip them with radar because of the loss of payload and the heavy expenditure involved. If, however, it were made a mandatory provision, a lot of these aircraft of somewhat dubious—
  Mr. Dempsey: Age?
  Mr. Maxwell-Hyslop: Age is not necessarily a controlling factor—of somewhat dubious status in the safety league tables, if I may put it that way, would go straight on to the scrap heap.
  If we made it mandatory that all aircraft on which payment was accepted for passengers, whether on scheduled or charter flights, had to carry anti-collision radar, that is a way in which the accident rate could definitely be reduced. We should, of course, have to make exceptions in the case of services on which, say, 5 or 6-seater aircraft are used—for example, from Penzance to the Scilly Isles—where, obviously, it would be ridiculous to insist upon a tiny aircraft carrying radar. There are, however, definite means by which the risk in an accident can be minimised if it happens, and also the likelihood of an accident can be reduced, merely by altering the regulations governing the fuel and equipment which is carried.
  Incidentally, there have been a number of accidents in the last few years which have been attributed to pilot error superficially but which it is arguable were equipment failures. Certainly, one Lockheed Electra was lost with a large
  1642
  proportion of its passengers because the pilot misread the altimeter. That is also believed to have happened in the case of the Comet to which I have referred. That can be called merely pilot error, because the pilot misread the altimeter. More constructively, one could think that a type of altimeter should be employed which could less easily be misread, because the human element will always be present. There are, however, equipment steps which we can take to mitigate the likelihood of error.
  From the point of view of efficiency of service, I hold strongly the view, which may not be widely held on the other side of the House, that efficiency cannot start to be achieved until the basis of costs is established, because there can be no yardstick without a basis of cost. I have often heard it said, including, on one occasion, by the Chairman of British European Airways, that because B.E.A. runs services which by no stretch of the imagination can be described as remunerative—they are, in fact, social services—that is a good reason why there should be no competition with B.E.A. from other British airlines on routes exterior to the United Kingdom. This argument I am unable to accept. If B.E.A. has to provide uneconomic services, they should be financed by the Exchequer at an amount proportionate to the loss on those services, with the reservation that if other people can provide an equivalent service for less subsidy from the Exchequer they should be given the opportunity to do so. I stress "an equivalent service".
  When we look at the Annual Report for British European Airways for the year ending 31st March, 1961, we see on page 7 what I regard as an extremely misleading indication of the efficiency of the airline. I refer to the bottom section, entitled "Staff and Productivity". This tells us that the average number of employees has gone up in the last year by 8·6 per cent., that the capacity ton-mile per employee has increased by 13·8 per cent. and that the revenue per employee has increased by 6·5 per cent. Nothing is said about the costs. Left on their own, the figures which I have quoted suggest that B.E.A. has good ground to congratulate itself.
  This morning, I did a little figure work to discover how authentic is the

  1643
  basis for self-congratulation. If we use the same tables or the information appearing on page 6 and the same numbers of employees, we find that the operating account expenditure per employee has increased from£2,733 to£2,991, or an increase of 9·4 per cent., compared with the increase of revenue of 6·5 per cent. per employee which is quoted. The increase of total expenditure per employee—not simply on the operating account—is 8·7 per cent. compared with the previous year. The profit per employee before interest on capital is taken into consideration is down by 18·8 per cent., and the overall profit per employee is down by 32·9 per cent.
  I do not consider that the entry "Staff and Productivity" can in any way be said to give a fair picture of the productivity of B.E.A. in comparing 1959–60 with 1960–61. I regret very much that the authorities in British European Airways did not think it right to be more frank in their disclosure in that manner, although, of course, one can work out the true position. The same restriction of information to only the revenue element is contained in the appropriate paragraph in Appendix 6.
  Another example of extremely misleading, if not meaningless, information is contained on page 36 of the Annual Report, where we have an interesting table giving the various checks—checks 1, 2, 3 and 4—on the various aircraft employed by B.E.A. in each year for the different aircraft types.
  That is very interesting information. What is utterly meaningless or quite ridiculous, or both, is that it then adds them all up. The fallacy, of course, is that check 1 or check 4 on one aircraft takes a completely different number of manhours from check 1 or check 4 on another aircraft. So to add up the total of the number of check carried out in 1960–61 and compare it with the number in the previous year is like adding oranges and lemons: it is adding completely dissimilar entities. The result, therefore, must be completely valueless. So I hope that in its presentation of its Report next year British European Airways Corporation will be a little more frank in the comparisons which it makes between one year and
  1644
  another and will save a certain amount of unnecessary reading by omitting information which is totally valueless.
  There have been a number of misstatements made in this debate. There was a statement made by the hon. Gentleman the Member for Stockton-on-Tees (Mr. Chetwynd) that all the regular passenger traffic across the Atlantic was carried by I.A.T.A. members at agreed fare rates, and, therefore, the argument about what the effect of the reduced rates would be is highly hypothetical. Fortunately, the facts as the hon. Member stated them are incorrect, because for many years the Icelandic carrier Loftleidir, which is not a member of the International Air Transport Association, and whose fares are substantially below those of the I.A.T.A. members, has been carrying passengers across the Atlantic at cut rates with an absolutely 100 per cent. clean accident record. It has not crashed an aircraft or injured a passenger. It flew last year, to the best of my recollection, at a load factor of over 90 per cent.
  This demonstrates that in fact there is an elasticity in the market for operators who are prepared to serve sandwiches instead of champagne and who cater for people spending their own money instead of companies' money. Therefore, the contention that the market in any one year is a market which can be distributed between one or more operators but cannot be increased by operating more efficient equipment or by offering a less expensive form of service is not a contention which is supported by the available evidence.
  It was stated by the hon. Lady the Member for Flint, East (Mrs. White) that no independent operators in this country order British aircraft off the drawing board. When we look at the next generation of aircraft coming from the British aircraft industry I think it is unchallengeable that the best commercial prospect is the BAC 111. This is the first British aircraft which has ever been ordered off the drawing board by an American operator—by Braniff—and it has also been ordered off the drawing board, contrary to what the hon. Lady said, by British United Airlines. It has not been ordered by either of the two nationalised airline Corporations, and yet it is probably our best single

  1645
  chance of breathing new life into the aircraft producing industry in this country.
  Moreover, it could well be an advantage that it has not received an order from B.E.A. or B.O.A.C.—it would not, I think, be suitable for B.O.A.C. routes—because the kiss of death has been given to more than one aircraft type. I would certainly not say that the kiss of death has been given to the Trident because I believe that the Trident will sell abroad. Indeed, I rather believe that Trans-World Airlines were showing some interest in it. There is, however, ground for believing that the kiss of death for the Vanguard was the order by two customers only, each of whom was able to stretch the design of that aircraft so as to suit his own route structure, but, alas, so that it suits nobody else's. That is probably the reason why the Vanguard has not sold.
  Mr. Hunter: I understand that B.E.A. ordered 15 Vanguards. The difficulty of getting orders was that the jet aircraft came.
  Mr. Maxwell-Hyslop: No, that is not so. If we look at the order by T.C.A., that is so. T.C.A. ordered it long before the jet aircraft. I would grant that one reason why the Vanguard did not sell was that it was delivered later than the Lockheed Electra. Two plane loads of people were killed in Electras. They suffered failure of the wing. I think it is fair to point that out as well. The Vanguard has not as yet suffered—and, I hope, will not suffer—structural failure as the result of which a large number of passengers are killed.
  When we look at the airline industry as a whole, we must bear in mind that the average profit on invested capital is under one per cent., and that a very large number of most reputable airlines have made very substantial losses. Indeed, Trans-World Airlines probably holds the prize for consistent substantial losses. The major problem posed by the Amendment is the effect of the Civil Aviation (Licensing) Act, 1960, on the best interests of British aviation.
  I have endeavoured to show one of the effects of an order by an independent operator upon what, I hope, will be a continuation of the export market
  1646
  of the British Aircraft industry. I want also to stress a point which is not universally known but which should be. When a firm sells an aircraft or an aero-engine abroad, then for at least the next five years—and often for up to ten or even 15 years—it generates about 10 per cent. of its initial sale price through following sales of spare parts and overhauls. Thus, when a firm has sold an aircraft or an aero-engine it has guaranteed for itself for a considerable period recurring income from the sale of spare parts.
  It is also true that conversion ratio of aircraft and aero-engines is very high. By conversion ratio, I mean, the value added to the raw materials which have to be imported in the first place. I hazzard a guess that because of the tremendous expenditure on development work the conversion ratio on aircraft is very much higher than in the case of, say, motor cars, where a much higher proportion, I would guess, is that of imported raw materials.
  I conclude by stressing that, just as the amount of traffic between various countries depends not only on the increase of population but upon such extraneous factors as whether they are going through boom or slump periods at the moment—and this is very demontrable in terms of domestic air traffic in the United States—so we must not be too discouraged about the volume of trans-atlantic traffic and by the halt in the upward sweep of the passenger-mile curve this year. Many reasons account for that. One is the recession which the United States has been going through, together with the "holidays at home" campaign run by the American Government this year.
  I hope that both our nationalised Corporations will continue the same high standards of safety and service which they have demonstrated to date, but that they will be able to attach greater importance to a really accurate accounting system, which will show which of their services are losing money necessarily because they are of a social nature and could be subsidised directly by the State, and which are losing money in a way no business designed for profit-making would tolerate.
  For instance, both Corporations fly Comets with Avon engines. For both to set up separate overhaul bases for those

  1647
  engines would be a chronic waste of public money. But B.O.A.C. overhauls its own engines and B.E.A. sends its engines back to the manufacturer for overhaul. If B.E.A. set up, as it has considered doing—and I understand that it has not yet excluded the possibility—its own bases to overhaul engines identical with those used by B.O.A.C., then that would be of no benefit to the people travelling on their services and the bill would, in the end, go to the taxpayer.
  I hope that when we come to the end of the debate there will be a degree of unanimity, not that those who support a function for independent airlines are overtly or covertly trying to attack the record or the morale of the nationalised airline Corporations, but that many of us believe that there is a distinct function which both the public and the privately-owned undertakings can perform. Some of their services will be competitive: they will be in parallel. Some of them will not be competitive: they will be of different kinds. I hope that civil aviation in this country will develop in such a way as to provide safe and efficient services for people in this country, and for people flying outside it, and will also provide a reliable and large market which will act as the only stable basis there can ever be for a prosperous and exporting British aircraft industry.
  8.41 p.m.
  Mr. A. E. Hunter: This is the first opportunity that we have had for a long time for a full-scale debate on this important subject and it is, therefore, welcomed by those of us Who have always shown a great interest in civil aviation. Mention has been made of the Minister's decision to uphold the appeal of B.O.A.C. against Cunard Eagle. I think that he has made a correct and courageous decision. We all know that B.O.A.C. was worried about British competition on its North Atlantic route and I know that the staff of the Corporation were also concerned, feeling that it would affect their livelihood.
  Many reasons have been given for the fall-off in North Atlantic air traffic this year. The hon. Member for Tiverton (Mr. Maxwell-Hyslop) said that Americans were spending their holidays in the United States. Both the Corporations and the independents have had a very disappointing year. Let us all hope
  1648
  that 1962 will see a growth in air traffic for all companies.
  We are moving into an age in which air transport is important to all countries, and I am sure that all hon. Members wish Britain to remain a leading air Power. Therefore, the decisions which the Government make now are of major importance for tomorrow. Competition in air transport is keen and the margin of profit is small. The hon. Member for Macclesfield (Sir A. V. Harvey), who speaks with great knowledge on this subject, has said that 20 million dollars have been lost in air traffic on the North Atlantic route this year. Cunard Eagle, therefore, may come to feel in time that the Minister has done it a good turn.
  We should remember that£300 million of the nation's money is invested in Britain's two main airlines, B.O.A.C. and B.E.A. B.O.A.C. claims to take second place only to Pan-American Airways in international operations, and B.E.A. carries the seventh largest number of passengers in the world and is the largest airline in Europe. Both airlines face international competition. Both have set a very high standard of safety and their courtesy and service is appreciated in all parts of the world. When I have travelled, whether in other airliners abroad or in the Corporation aircraft, I have always been treated with great courtesy and I think that the service all round is very good.
  The continual success and expansion of the Corporations is important to Britain, as a great commercial nation. It is also essential to our aircraft industry. It is important to remember that only the aircraft Corporations can place the large orders with the aircraft manufacturers. I am making no attack on the independents, but it is quite obvious that they have not the capital to do so. A modern aircraft today costs£1 million or£1½million—
  Sir A. V. Harvey: Two million pounds.
  Mr. Hunter: —the hon. Member for Macclesfield says£2 million, so it is quite obvious that the independents have not the money to give the big orders which will enable the aircraft manufacturers to maintain the industry and give full employment.

  1649
  The order by B.E.A. for the Vanguard is quite a large one. When I was at Vickers, with my hon. Friend the Member for Stockton-on-Tees (Mr. Chetwynd), we were told that the firm did not expect to sell many more Vanguards. Jet airliners were coming into the market and this would spoil its orders for Vanguards. This is an important point. With change in design and talk about faster-than-sound aircraft the demand in a few years' time will be for the faster aircraft. That is one of the difficulties under which the Corporations operate today.
  The Corporations are also doing a vital work for civil aviation in addition to research. I have been to London Airport and have seen the training school there. It is a model training school. One can see the great care with which the pilots are being trained. That has been of enormous value not only to the pilots, but to the whole industry.
  I turn to another matter in which I think that we can pay tribute to the Corporations. On the question of aircraft noise, which is of considerable concern to many of my constituents, the Parliamentary Secretary informed the House in a debate on 10th November that B.O.A.C., by installing silencers on its aircraft, had incurred an operational loss of£400,000, because of a reduction in power and efficiency, in the last complete financial year, and that the cost to B.E.A. was£100,000, so the Corporations had incurred a loss of£500,000 in the interest of public amenities. It is a tribute to the Corporations that they are attempting to help on this question of aircraft noise.
  The Minister informed me by letter about the earth bank which has been built round part of London Airport by B.O.A.C. as a baffle of aircraft ground noise. So we can see that the Corporation is making great efforts to try to cure the problem. While on the subject, I plead with the Minister to encourage manufacturers to make further efforts to overcome the noise problem at source, in the construction of engines. That is where the real solution will be found. We must urge aircraft manufacturers to carry on with research in their design of aircraft engines, so that we can eventually eliminate the noise problem.
  1650
  Air safety is a matter of concern to us all. It must be the first and overriding consideration. In this, the Corporations have an excellent record. I have mentioned their training of pilots, which is essential to safety and efficiency. Those who fly for Britain are as good as any in the world. Nevertheless, whether they be pilots of the Corporations or independent operators, they need an efficient engineering base. It may be that the trouble which caused a crash existed in the aircraft before it took off. It is not always possible to discover this. I know that the Corporations do all they can to ensure safety through the splendid engineering bases they provide at London Airport.
  I now turn to the work of the Air Transport Licensing Board, set up under the 1960 Act. When it grants licences to independent operators it must be sure that they are efficient operators, with proper organisations and financial security. There is a temptation for independent operators to go for the holiday traffic only. We get peak periods in July, August and September, when hundreds of thousands of people go to Europe. These private operators are tempted to work simply for that traffic. We must have efficient and strong operators, and not those of a mushroom growth. I hope, therefore, that the Minister will give serious consideration to the question of all-in holiday tours, and will make sure that only efficient and reliable independent operators are licensed.
  Air travel demands the efficient organisation of aircraft, but I trust that the Minister will also safeguard the public in the matter of insurance. I understand from the Press that the Board has written to the Minister because it is not satisfied with the present position. I hope that the Minister will pay attention to the facts which the Board has brought to his notice. When the Civil Aviation (Licensing) Act was in Committee my hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington (Mr. Skeffington) and I put down an Amendment, but withdrew it to allow the Minister to bring in his Amendment which, we understood, provided that licences would be granted only if the Board was satisfied that the operator concerned was in a sound financial position.

  1651
  In August of this year one of the independent companies went into liquidation, owing Income Tax and money to the employees' pension fund. Other operators had the task of fetching back holiday makers who had been conveyed abroad by this company. I do not know about the insurance position, but had there been a crash there could have been a bill for hundreds of thousands of pounds. I hope that with the growth of our air transport services careful attention will be paid to the question of insurance so that passengers and aircrews and people on the ground, may be safeguarded.
  The expansion of our air transport depends mainly on the two large Corporations. Independent companies, for whom a charter was given by a Labour Government, can do useful work. A vigorous air transport service will provide work for our aircraft industry. The aircraft of B.O.A.C. and B.E.A. have the Union Jack painted upon them and we should be proud that our flag is carried all over the world.
  8.56 p.m.
  Mr. George Chetwynd: We have had an extremely useful debate which has well justified the decision of the Opposition to utilise this day to debate aviation matters for the first time for a long period. I am sorry that hon. Members from areas where there are redundancy problems, such as in Northern Ireland and in Gloucester, have not been able to take part, and I hope that I may be able to say something on their behalf.
  This had been a timely debate, but I do not think that the Minister made the most of his opportunity. This is the first major occasion on which he could tell us what was in his mind regarding the aircraft industry and the Corporations, but I do not think that the right hon. Gentleman dealt adequately with the points made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Dundee, West (Mr. Strachey). The aircraft industry and the independent h companies are passing through a critical phase in their history, and it seems to me that there is a lack of overall direction and little signs of purpose from the Ministry.
  The Minister has a duty to further the interest of British aviation. We may
  1652
  disagree on how to interpret that duty. Some may say that it means that the independent operators should have priority and others that priority should be accorded to the Corporations. I wish to make clear that I and my hon. Friends think that the maintenance of British aviation means supporting the Corporations in which so much public money has been invested. The Corporations have carried the flag well in the past years, and we have every right to be proud of their record, as was emphasised by my hon. Friends the Members for Glasgow, Govan (Mr. Rankin) and Feltham (Mr. Hunter).
  Reference has been made to safety, and I do not wish to deal with that matter in any detail. I am sorry that the hon. Member for Macclesfield (Sir A. V. Harvey), for whom I have so much respect, seemed to think that my hon. Friend the Member for Barnsley (Mr. Mason) had some ulterior motive in raising this matter. I do not think that that was so. My hon. Friend is very keen to see that safety standards are high and we should be grateful to him for the interest he takes in this matter.
  Sir A. V. Harvey: I did not suggest that the hon. Gentleman's motives were wrong. I said that he had exploited the situation and misrepresented the facts and that what he said had not helped the industry.
  Mr. Chetwynd: I think we shall have to differ on that. I am always a little loth to deal with accidents on the basis of who is the operator because tomorrow, who knows, it may be the turn of the other one. I think a case has been made that there is a need for more investigation into inclusive tours. I cannot see how forty-eight inspectors can do this job efficiently all the time and keep a constant check on what is happening. We need a lot more reassurance about that.
  We do not make enough of the success of our publicly-owned Corporations. We tend to let that go by default. There are many criticisms but very little praise. We should use this debate to tell something of the success story of the air Corporations. The Minister paid a remarkable tribute to them. In our debate, B.E.A. seems to have come off better in this comparison, but I do not think we have been quite fair to B.O.A.C. In later

  1653
  years it has had tremendous problems due to the Comet failure, trade union disputes, and so on. Taking into account all the adverse world conditions of last year, its record, in practice, of putting this right has been quite good. I shall come to that in more detail later.
  In dealing with B.E.A., we have to make quite clear that it is the largest airline in Europe, that it has put British aviation in the forefront of European air transport, that it has made a profit on its operations for seven years in succession—which is almost half its operational lifetime—and that last year, in difficult conditions, it made a profit, after paying interest on capital, of about£1½million. When we bear in mind that it is paying interest charges at an average rate of 4·8 per cent. on all capital employed, we must realise that this is extremely good business for the nation. Not only that, but it has continued its expansion well above the world airline average. It has been able to bring into operation further reductions in international and domestic passenger fares. It has continually improved the services offered to the public by introducing new aircraft. It is a prime example of a public corporation working in the national interest.
  The Minister has given us a rather more gloomy picture for this year. One hopes that we are through the worst of this year. I do not know if we can have confirmation of this, but it seems that the traffic figures compared with the same period last year are getting back to the more normal form of increase, so, maybe, the worst is over for this year. I think that we have reason to be well satisfied with the position of B.E.A.
  Although we on this side of the House more or less brought B.O.A.C. into its present shape, we do not take an uncritical view of its actions. Anyone viewing a Corporation which expects a loss this year of£10 million must be critical and in the best interests of the airline must ask some questions on how this comes about. I think that this£10 million should be broken down. I understand that about£2½million can be directly attributed to the strike in July, regrettable as that was. Part of the rest must be due to the fall in the North Atlantic traffic. I understand that for
  1654
  every one point fall in load factor on all flights the Corporation loses about£¾ million. It seems that£6 million of the loss can be attributed to the falloff in North Atlantic traffic.
  Then there are the losses on the associates. This position needs careful analysis. We cannot just accept the position that all the associates which lose money are a dead loss. That just is not so. They are essential for part of the traffic pattern of B.O.A.C.—feeder services, and so on. Some of them, particularly the Kuwait one mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Govan, are there on the express orders of the Government. We must not take the axe to every one of them. We must be selective and make sure that where we retain an interest the utmost is done to make the associate pay. Finally, as part of B.O.A.C.'s loss there are the high interest rates which it has to pay on every pound of its borrowed capital.
  In spite of all these difficulties, from 1955 to 1961 B.O.A.C.'s traffic revenue increased from£36·6 million to£88 million. During this time its operating costs were reduced by one-quarter. This is progress in the right direction. There are signs now that things are picking up for B.O.A.C. and there has been a closing of the gaps as regards associates.
  Although we must look forward to more difficulties for B.O.A.C. than for B.E.A., nationalised undertakings can give a good account of themselves. We must bear in mind that if some hon. Members opposite had their way the position would be far more difficult. If it is difficult for B.O.A.C. to operate against all the foreign competition and make a go of things, how much more difficult it would be if it had to look over its shoulders and watch competition from a rival concern at home.
  It is against this background that we have tabled the Amendment. We want to examine the work of the Civil Aviation (Licensing) Act and the work of the Air Transport Licensing Board.
  Sir A. V. Harvey: The hon. Member stated that the rate of interest paid by the Corporations was 4·8 per cent. He should mention that this is considerably lower than the rate at which any industrial company can borrow money today.
  Mr. Chetwynd: Yes, but we are not dealing with industrial companies. We are dealing with a business which at best in any country in the world is a marginal operation.
  I come now to the main sector of my remarks concerning the work of the Board. We welcome the decision of the Minister with regard to Cunard Eagle. Indeed, the right hon. Gentleman could have done nothing else. In view of the remarks of his Commissioner, it would have been absolutely impossible for him to have arrived at any other decision on the facts of the case. That alone justifies our comments on the uncertainty to which the working of this Act has given rise.
  Those of the Minister's hon. Friends who have tended to complain about and be aggrieved at the Minister doing this ought not to direct their concern at the Board. The Board was doing its job, as it conceived it, under the terms of the Act. Hon. Members should be aggrieved at the Minister and the Government who put the Act through. If they had taken our advice on Second Reading, in Committee and on Report they could have incorporated provisions which would have prevented them having this embarrassment. We made it quite clear on the Bill, arising from the statement of the then Minister, the present Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations, that we regarded the Bill as not providing adequate protection to secure its main purpose, which was, as the then Minister put it, to prevent the undermining of the Corporations.
  We tried at every stage to incorporate into the Bill express provisions to make it mandatory on the Licensing Board to protect the position of the Corporations. That was not done. During the passage of the Bill the feeling was expressed that this would give the independents the chance of a lifetime; that this was the chance for which they had been waiting to break the Corporations' monopoly and to take the parts that suited them best. Therefore, when Cunard Eagle's attempt to take away traffic from B.O.A.C. on the Atlantic routes was dealt with, it was not surprising that the first judgment, if one may so call it, was in favour of Cunard Eagle.
  1656
  At the same time, it was a most surprising result in view of the evidence adduced. At the end of its statement, the Board more or less came down on the side of the Corporation on the three important points of wasteful duplication, material diversion and financial commitments reasonably entered into. The Board said, in fact, that the decision would result in wasteful duplication—although it could not define that—and in material diversion, though, strangely enough, the Board stated that that did not stop it from giving the licence. Thirdly, it said that the fact that B.O.A.C. had entered into commitments of about£151 million would not deter the Board from granting the licence to Cunard Eagle.
  It was very much like saying to a man, "On all these grounds I find you not guilty, but the majority of the jury think that you should be hanged. I therefore sentence you to death." That is more or less the analogy. The argument was conceded to B.O.A.C.; the decision was given against it.
  This manifest injustice has been put right by the Minister on appeal, but the real weakness of the Act is that the Air Transport Licensing Board conceived that it had a positive duty to encourage independent operators to go alongside the Corporations, whereas our view was that all this Measure did was to make it possible for them to do so if they could prove their case—
  Mr. Stanley R. McMaster: How does the hon. Gentleman square what is stated in paragraph 3 (5) of the Commissioner's letter with the contents of paragraph 11 of the Board's findings?
  Mr. Chetwynd: I had intended to be kind and to make the hon. Gentleman's case for Northern Ireland later, but I might now change my mind.
  We conceive the interests of British aviation to be bound up with the continued success of the Corporations, and the onus is on those who do not agree with this to prove otherwise. We have persisted in our Amendments in spite of the Minister's decision, because this is only one case of many. We are only at the beginning of a long period of settling the future framework of our aviation services, and we draw certain lessons

  1657
  from this case. The first lesson is that the chosen instrument policy must prevail where there is a clash of interest.
  Secondly, we believe—and my right hon. Friend the Member for Dundee, West made it clear—that there is room for the independents to expand, but not at the expense of the Corporations. Indeed, if one looks at the figures for B.I.A.T.A. this year one finds that the independents had a considerable expansion without eating into B.E.A. or B.O.A.C. routes, by simply developing their existing routes and by increasing their charter and inclusive tours. We feel that where the independents can prove that they can operate and work up a new route, they are just as much entitled to have that protected from being eaten into by one of the Corporations. At the same time, we make it clear that where the Corporations, after many years of endeavour and expenditure, have built up a profitable route they should not be compelled to hand it over to private independent operators.
  My hon. Friends and I believe that the best way to further the interests of British aviation is to back the Corporations and allow the others to develop their services in other spheres. There is just no sense in pushing everyone into bankruptcy, and that is what would happen if the independents were allowed to operate willy-nilly, more or less, on the same routes as the Corporations.
  The Minister gave as one of his major reasons for the rejection of the licence that he agreed that B.O.A.C. had too many seats chasing too few passengers. In fact, the classical definition of air inflation is, "Too many seats chasing too few bottoms." That may be a polite way of putting it, for the airlines have another expression.
  There is no point in making everyone bankrupt when, by the sensible use of the Act, each section can do reasonably well. I should have thought that Cunard have been done a service. The company can come again on other routes, and it will be able to use the aircraft it has on order. But we believe that the public interest goes hand in hand with the prosperity of the Corporations.
  There were many occasions in Committee when we could have helped the Minister over his difficulties if he had let
  1658
  us. There was a provision whereby he would have been enabled to give advice and general directions to the Board. But for some unknown reason he dropped that provision. It would have prevented all this public embarrassment of the Board—and of the party opposite—if the Minister could have gone, privately and quietly, to the Board and said, "Under this Section you should not do this. The Corporations must not be threatened." And he could have given his reason.
  That does not mean that the position would remain frozen, as it is now. It means that every case would be judged on its merits. My hon. Friends and raise this now because, although the threat may have been removed from B.O.A.C. at the moment, it still hangs over the Corporations. There are, I believe, about fifty applications by independents to get in on the existing international routes of B.E.A. and, as far as I can gather from the hearings, they have shown no proof of need. Meanwhile, B.E.A. has given figures of the estimated future traffic and orders of aircraft necessary to carry it out. It has not been proved that B.E.A.'s services are inadequate or that its fares are unreasonable.
  Sir A. V. Harvey: As these cases are still before the court and since no decision has been given, is it not quite wrong that an hon. Member should refer to the details of a case at present under consideration?
  Mr. Speaker: As at present advised, I do not think that the Board is a judicial body within the meaning of our rules.
  Mr. Chetwynd: The Board is not a judicial body and this is the only place in which we can have any influence over the Minister. If the Minister had not agreed to revoke the Cunard licence this would have been the only opportunity we should have had in public to make the case against it. I cannot understand the hon. Gentleman being so touchy about it.
  Sir A. V. Harvey: Not at all.
  Mr. Chetwynd: The British European Airways Corporation stands to lose over£7 million if B.U.A. gets some of its licences. If all the licences that are asked for are granted, B.E.A. will have

  1659
  sixteen Tridents redundant. These aircraft have already been ordered and something like£20 million expenditure will be rendered nugatory. The Government would be faced with negotiating traffic rights, which might be extremely inconvenient and difficult for them to do. If the profitable routes were taken from B.E.A. the Corporation would have to curtail its operations, would not be able to pioneer new routes, fares would probably go up and the public interest would suffer. For all those reasons, we hope that the decision of the Air Transport Licensing Board will take into account the factors of material diversion of traffic, duplication and the fact that B.E.A. has committed itself to large expenditure on the purchase of aeroplanes.
  We do not think very much of the tactics of B.U.A. in walking out of the hearing this morning. British United Airways has no need to imitate the Russians when things do not go quite its way. I believe the reason why B.U.A. went out was not to demonstrate its lack of confidence in the Board but the fact that it had such a weak case that it did not wish to expose it. However, there the matter rests; it is still in abeyance. I hope that we shall see less of the attempt to eat into the business of the Corporations because, in the long run, that can only result in a weakening of the national interest.
  I thought that there would be criticism, and, indeed, some newspapers have made the criticism, of perpetuating the monopoly. But the Minister himself went out of his way to deny that the Corporations have a monopoly. He repeated that twice, making quite clear that a modern civil aviation undertaking has to face intense competition on the international routes and it has obligations outside normal commercial obligations, and that any idea that the Corporations are being mollycoddled by a monopoly is completely a myth. A reference to the statement of Lord Mills yesterday in another place shows quite clearly that he admits that the Corporations are facing fierce competition on the Atlantic route and that B.E.A., equally, is facing fierce competition in Europe. In fact, if one wants to fly to Rome from this country, one may choose between eighteen
  1660
  different airlines. That does not seem to support the argument that B.E.A. has a monopoly.
  I turn now to the other part of the Amendment which refers to the effect of Government policy on the aircraft industry. Since the days of the right hon. Gentleman who is now Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations, there seems to have been a curious lack of decision in the Ministry of Aviation. The then Minister, when he went into office, made a tremendous fuss; he knocked everyone together, brought out certain matters very clearly, and made a number of decisions. We are still waiting for decisions from the present Minister on almost everything.
  We still want a decision on supersonic aircraft. The French have given a decision, and I see no reason why we should fall behind the French in the race. It is time for a decision, mainly on psychological grounds, as my hon. Friend the Member for Govan pointed out, to give encouragement to the industry. We could no more think of dropping out of this race than we could have thought of not taking up jet propulsion because we were operating pistons. Had we done that, our industry would by now have been more or less derelict. If we drop out of the race for supersonic aircraft, there will, I believe, be little future for us in the aircraft world.
  We are still awaiting a decision on helicopters. We are supposed to have a service operating fairly soon. I understand that arrangements have been settled for some time for B.E.A. to purchase three VTOL aircraft powered by de Havilland Gnome engines. We are still waiting for a decision about them. I hope that we can have it, because the future of inter-city travel and travel on the short continental routes will be bound up with the success of the helicopter.
  On the state of the industry generally, many hon. Members have expressed real anxiety about present and threatened redundancies. The Whitworth Gloster concern in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Gloucester (Mr. Diamond) is in difficulty.
  Mr. Diamond: Hear, hear.
  Mr. Chetwynd: It is understood that 4,000 workers there are redundant. At de Havilland at Christchurch there is the

  1661
  prospect of 1,600 redundancies. My hon. Friend the Member for Flint, East (Mrs. White) gave details of the outlook in her own constituency.
  Many aircraft workers—some have been to see us today—have really bleak prospects unless more aircraft orders are given. The aircraft manufacturers themselves have been very vocal about this, and they tend to blame the Minister for the shortfall. They say, "You compelled us to get together and merge, and the understanding was that substantial orders would follow to enable us to keep in operation". I gather that those orders have not followed. It is as if there had been a shotgun wedding—as, of course, it was—but the people concerned have refused to pay the dowry, and any moment now, I suppose, they are going to take the bride back. We shall have to see how things work out.
  It gives us this remarkable result—that one of the consortia has plenty of work and the other one has very little. We have one group advertising for workers in large numbers, and the other group dismissing them. Then the Minister says, "Let us look for our planning to Europe". Why should he not look at home first? If we have to have an agreement between one of these groups and five or six Continental groups, why not investigate the possibility of amalgamating the two groups at home first to see how we can rationalise the industry and spread the work around on that basis?
  It is quite clear that there has been no overall plan for the British aircraft industry both as regards operators and manufacturers. The promised Government aid has not been forthcoming in the amount in which it was expected. Now, there does seem to be a great need for some overall plan. The firms want orders, the men want jobs and the industry expects stability and the prospect of expansion. There is no room, I believe, in this business for faint hearts or defeatists who think that we are on the way out. We have confidence in our industry and in our skills. We can put ourselves once again in the forefront of aviation techniques and so on.
  The Government must make up their mind what kind of industry they want and that they are going to get it out of the doldrums. We feel that the Minister
  1662
  has not been devoting all his attention to these matters but has been considering other things in Europe. Therefore, we think that we must go ahead with our Amendment on the Order Paper. The Minister has stated that he is going to be behind the organisation. It is no good being behind the organisation. He will have to be in it and part of it, and because we believe that the Minister has failed in that duty we shall divide the House tonight.
  9.27 p.m.
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Aviation (Mr. C. M. Woodhouse): There have been moments in the last day or two when I feared that my right hon. Friend and myself would find ourselves alone in the Government Lobby tonight, and there have been moments during this debate when I thought there might be no occasion for us to go into the Lobby at all.
  This has been a fluctuating debate, and it has covered an enormous amount of ground. There has been a common thread through everything that has been said, or most of what has been said—that everything that was wrong with the aircraft industry and its management and operation from beginning to end is due to my right hon. Friend and the Government, and that anything that, by a miracle, has gone right is due to the singular and exceptional merits of someone else in it. I am hoping to show that this is a travesty of the facts.
  I cannot possibly answer every point that has been raised in this long debate I intend to concentrate mainly on those points that have been raised which bear most closely on the terms of the Amendment, but I should like to stray outside those limits for a moment to deal with one or two points that have been raised, incidentally, in a number of speeches on the subject of the operation of airports and air traffic systems. It had not been my intention to deal with this subject, because it has been recently the subject of a White Paper. In that White Paper, there are some provisions which require legislation, and some of that legislation is already under way.
  I have in mind particularly the Civil Aviation (Eurocontrol) Bill, and, of course, at some future date there will

  1663
  have to be legislation relating to the creation of an airport authority. That will provide an opportunity for debating these points. The rest of the matters in the White Paper can be dealt with, and are being dealt with at the moment, administratively. The principal one is the sale of Government-owned airports. As the subject of airports was touched on by one or two hon. Members, I should like briefly to answer the points that they raised.
  My hon. Friend for Bournemouth, West (Mr. Eden) asked a question about our intentions with regard to Hurn Airport. This is one of the airports which the Government intend to sell to municipal ownership. We are in contact with the local authorities to do that, but the nature of the arrangements is bound to depend on what happens to the neighbouring airport of Eastleigh. There are applications before the Air Transport Licensing Board to renew services from Eastleigh. If those go through, the future of Hurn may be rather different and we shall consider whether to no ahead with plans for the new terminal building and on what scale in relation to the decisions about services.
  The hon. Lady the Member for Flint, East (Mrs. White) asked a question about an airport in North Wales. I remind her that under the terms of the White Paper it is open to the authority operating the airport that she has in mind to apply for Government assistance, subject to the criteria which are laid down in the White Paper. These are principally indispensability to the national system and the need for financial assistance in relation to the burden on the rates. I cannot encourage the authority to apply for assistance. I can only point out that these criteria will be strictly applied, but it is open to the operating authority to seek assistance if it wishes to do so.
  The hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (Mr. Skeffington) wished to know where I slept at London Airport. The simple answer is, in the general manager's flat—with the window open.
  Points were raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Macclesfield (Sir A. V. Harvey) about the future development of London (Heathrow) Airport. A number of complaints about the inadequacy
  1664
  of the airport were made. We are well aware that London (Heathrow) Airport continues to need improving. It always will. No airport can remain in a static condition for ever.. We are working hard in collaboration with the management of the airport to ensure that the necessary improvements are carried out. They are to a considerable extent already under way. Longer runways have been built, no doubt much to the annoyance of hon. Members' constituents who live in the neighbourhood.
  The new long haul building is functioning. A multi-storey garage to ease the parking problem will be erected in the next year or two. When the South Wales Motorway is completed, there will be a spur from it to provide better access to London (Heathrow) Airport. Improvements in freight accommodation are in progress. We are also considering the future development of the present site of the northern terminal, which provides a big opportunity for improving the facilities of the airport.
  I now turn to the substance of the arguments which have been put against the Government. They have dealt principally with the Minister's relations, first, with the independent air operators, secondly, with the Corporations, thirdly, with the manufacturing industry, and, fourthly, with other countries with whom we are in competition and, in some cases, collaboration.
  To deal with the independent operators first, the main subject of debate has, of course, been their accident record. We have had this subject before the House once or twice fairly recently and I do not want to go over the whole ground again. In the interests of hon. Members who were not present on previous occasions, however, I think it right to repeat that the statistics which are used in different ways as the basis of criticism are open to a good deal of argument.
  The statistics which I gave in reply to the hon. Member for Barnsley (Mr. Mason), although with many caveats, could be used to prove all sorts of things. They could be used, for example, to prove that in some of the years covered by the statistics it was more dangerous to travel by the Corporations than by the independent airlines. Nobody wants to suggest that.

  1665
  It is merely an index of the misleading character of the statistics.
  The reasons why the statistics are misleading are several. One is that accidents to British aircraft, whether scheduled or non-scheduled, independent or Corporation, are, mercifully, so few that any accident is liable to give a severely distorting effect to the statistics. Another important factor is that the number of passengers involved in any crash is entirely fortuitous. It may be 60 in one crash and only two in another in aircraft of exactly the same type.
  Another reason is that the lengths of stages flown by different operators vary greatly. On the whole, it tends to be the Corporations which fly the longer stages and the independent airlines which fly the shorter and more frequent stages. It is well known that among the potentially most dangerous moments in any flight are take-off and landing. Consequently, there may be more accidents in the case of operators who fly the shorter and more frequent stages than in the case of those who fly the longer ones.
  Other bases of statistics could be used which would produce different results. I concede, however, that over the last two or three years, any basis of statistics would show the independent airlines to be less successful, on the whole, in avoiding accidents than the Corporations. This is common ground. What we have to consider in the light of this is how to remedy that situation.
  The House is familiar with the instruments which my right hon. Friend has for that purpose. I should like to list them briefly, with the preliminary observation that the essential thing to have in mind is that all these instruments are applicable at the same time to everybody. These instruments are, first, the air operator's certificate, issued by the Director of Aviation Safety under the authority of my right hon. Friend; secondly, a certificate of airworthiness for each aircraft, issued by the Air Registration Board; thirdly, the pilot's licence, with suitable endorsements, issued by the Minister, entitling the pilot to fly particular aircraft; and fourthly, air service licences issued by the Air Transport Licensing Board in the case of United Kingdom operators, and under the control of the Minister in the case
  1666
  of foreign operators coming into this country. Any operator in this country must have all these requirements; they are not alternatives. No aircraft can fly on a civil transport flight unless it satisfies all the criteria requisite for all those permits to operate.
  I do not think it necessary to go in detail over all the ground that has to be covered in inspections for each of those permits. I should, however, like to refer to the fact, which has been mentioned in the debate, that in the case of the air operator's certificate, for instance, the onus of responsibility for ensuring that the regulations are conformed to rests with the operator, subject to the perpetual continuing inspection by the Ministry's 48 inspectors. I am assured that they are confident that they can do the necessary work. There are only 40 independent operators to be inspected.
  They have, in fact, during the eight months or so since the present system was brought into effect, carried out 330 visits to operators, of whom the great majority have been independent operators. They also inspect the Corporations, but they do not regard it as necessary at present to pay quite the same detailed attention to the Corporations as to the independents. In addition to the 330 visits which they have made, they have carried out 184 in-flight inspections. There is one section of the inspectors corps who are in-flight inspectors who go in the aircraft with the operators to see that they are conforming to the necessary standards.
  I mentioned that only 40 operators exist which have to be inspected at the moment. There were originally 38 licences when the system came in; eight have been licensed since then; five licences have been withdrawn, even in the eight months since the system was operating; one lapsed, or was surrendered. Five have been withdrawn, not by any means in every case on the grounds of danger, but in several cases on grounds of the inadequate financial support of the operators concerned, which I mention to show that the conduct of this system of inspection pays the closest possible attention to the financial standing of the companies concerned.
  As regards the airworthiness certificate, I think that I need only say, in addition to what has already been said

  1667
  tonight, that there has been no recent case of a crash which has been attributed on inquiry to a failure of airworthiness.
  Mr. Strachey: If the hon. Gentleman is leaving the question of the responsibility of the operators, may I put to him that the point which really concerns us is, will he consider again whether it is really satisfactory that the pilot has to satisfy, as to his route training and general efficiency, not the Minister but only the operator? This seems to me to be the difficulty.
  Mr. Woodhouse: We are always prepared to look at anything again, but although he has to satisfy the operator, the operator has to satisfy the Ministry's inspectors that this is being adequately taken care of, and it is done in exactly the same way and to exactly the same standards for the Corporations with their scheduled flights.
  I need not go into detail on the issue of pilot's licences. It is certainly a travesty of the facts to suggest that any part-time pilot can jump into any plane at any time whether he knows it or not, and can fly where he likes. I de not think that the House has accepted that picture.
  On the question of air service licences, I would repeat that the Air Transport Licensing Board is now looking very closely at the financial structure of the independents for whom it is responsible for issuing licences. It was not able to do so in the initial press of business at the beginning. Now it is paying very close attention to that.
  A point was raised on the phrasing of the Civil Aviation (Licensing) Act, with comparison between Section 2 (2, a) and Section 2 (4) where the consideration of
  "matters in respect of which an air operator's certificate is required"
  was withdrawn from the competence of the Licensing Board when it was considering the experience or the financial resources of the companies. This is done quite simply in order not to have to do the same job twice over. The Board is entitled to assume that the air operators' certificates have been properly issued. It is not, therefore, obliged to consider the issue of the air operator's
  1668
  certificate in passing judgment on the other aspects of issuing a licence. I do not think that the House need have any anxiety on that score.
  The question of insurance was raised again in relation to the factors which the Board has to take into consideration, and on this I need only draw attention to the first report of the Licensing Board, in which it noted that it was aware of no case where the victims of accidents had failed to receive compensation in full because of lack of insurance. The Board said that this indicated a high standard of safety among operators and the general adequacy of insurance cover taken out, and that the insurers interpret their obligations liberally. These are reasons why it has never seemed necessary to introduce a compulsory third-party insurance system, although the power to do so has existed since 1936 under the Air Navigation Act.
  I want to conclude this part of what I have to say with one or two general remarks. First, it is right that, before considering any further investigation of this question on a general front, we should await the conclusions of the current investigations into the recent crashes. The right hon. Member for Dundee, West (Mr. Strachey) referred to three crashes, but, unfortunately, there have been four within the last few weeks. I hope that he did not leave out the fourth merely because no passengers were killed. Two members of the crew were killed in that crash, and no one regards them as expendable, any more than passengers.
  Mr. Strachey Mr. Strachey indicated assent.
  Mr. Woodhouse: I want to say a word about these crashes. Even if the Minister had attempted an arbitrary stiffening of the regulations governing air operators' services or other forms of licensing in advance, this would have had no effect on these accidents, because they occurred in every case to firms of the highest standing which had previously had a very good accident record. Tightening the regulations would, perhaps, have caused one or two marginal firms to drop out at the bottom of the list, and that might or might not have been desirable. But it would certainly not have put Derby Aviation, or Silver

  1669
  City, or Cunard Eagle out of business and I doubt whether it would have been anybody's desire to do so.
  My last point about accidents arises from the remarks made by the hon. Member for Barnsley (Mr. Mason) and others about publicity of investigations and their results. We believe strongly in this. The Minister, although he is not obliged to do so, has published every recent report of an investigation which has been given to him. The House will know of the publication Flight Safety Focus by the Flight Safety Committee, which is not a purely private enterprise body.
  The Ministry of Aviation and other Government Departments are represented on it, and we make a financial contribution. We believe in the publication and circulation of this information. Shortly, the Minister hopes to make a statement of the policy we shall adopt on the basis of the Cairns Report, which suggests that there should be more investigation of incidents as well as accidents. We have already indicated our general approval of the main provisions of that Report. My right hon. Friend hopes to make a statement on it before long. I hope that I may now leave the subject of air accidents with the assurance that this matter is constantly in the minds of my right hon. Friend, of the officials of the Ministry, and of myself.
  I will turn now to the relations of the Minister and the Corporations. It is common ground that the Corporations are having a difficult year. This can be seen by looking at their reports, which show a slightly different picture for the two Corporations. Things are disappointing for B.E.A. because it has been doing so extraordinarily well in recent years, whereas in the case of B.O.A.C. the situation has been a continuation of a long run of bad luck. The House will want to hear the prospects for the future of the Corporations with regard to the parts of their recent operations which have been unsuccessful.
  I do not think that there has been any inclination on the part of either Corporation to blame their recent setbacks on Government policy. They have certainly had considerable losses on their subsidiaries over recent years, but there is only one case in which they are
  1670
  operating, at the direct request of the Government, a subsidiary that is losing money, and that is Kuwait Airways. Middle Eastern Airlines and British West Indian Airlines have recently been sold after many years of heavy losses and the Bahamas Airlines was bought back by the Corporation only because there was no alternative other than to allow it to go into liquidation with consequent loss of our own investments and our traffic rights on the other side of the Atlantic, and considerable damage to the good name of the Corporation which was closely linked with the Bahamas Airways in the minds of people living in the Bahamas.
  Mr. Rankin: The hon. Gentleman says that there is only one associated company which acts under Government direction. Will he also assure us that the Government have not any sort of influence on the others?
  Mr. Woodhouse: I said that there was only one that was losing heavily that was operating on a contract formed at the direct request of the Government and that was Kuwait Airways. There are some other lines among the subsidiaries of B.O.A.C. which are actually making small profits. Cathay Pacific and Gulf are at any rate out of the "red". The Corporation is looking carefully at its policies with regard to subsidiaries and two of the heaviest losers have been sold during the present year.
  Neither of the Corporations has been inclined to blame the Government for its setbacks. There are some factors in their operating costs which are due to the Government. High landing fees have been referred to, but I remind the House that the Select Committee, in its report this year upon airports, said that although comparisons are extremely difficult to make, it considered that costs to operators using London Airport are not unreasonably high.
  Noise regulations, which the hon. Member for Feltham (Mr. Hunter) mentioned, have also imposed costs on them, and the new long-haul terminal has temporarily split B.O.A.C. operations with some inconvenience to it. All this, of course, does not mean that Government policy has imposed any real hardship on the operations of the Corporations in recent years.

  1671
  Hon. Members opposite may consider that, until the decision of two days ago, the operations of the Air Transport Licensing Board did impose such a handicap, but anyone who studies carefully the reports of the Corporations in the last year or two will see that they did not regard the operation of the Air Transport Licensing Board as liable in any way to curtail or inhibit their growth, with the one exception that they made of the Cunard Eagle decision which was reversed by my right hon. Friend on appeal.
  British European Airways expressed considerable anxiety about how the Board would operate, but considering that the Board has now produced 850 decisions and has only been appealed against four times it is reasonable to say that the principles guiding it have become understood and accepted. The Board itself has said, quite correctly, and the Government agree, that
  "It appears to have been the intention of the legislature to leave the Board unfettered as regards the general policies they should pursue and, in particular, free to exercise their judgment with no predetermined preference for any particular classes of air transport operator or particular class of service."
  That principle still holds.
  That is how the Board understands its function and the Government agree with it. All this was properly done in the case of the present decision on Cunard Eagle. The decision was taken by my right hon. Friend, as he has told the House, not on any single decisive consideration, but on a balance of advantages and it was a very narrow and a very fine balance. Since it has been suggested in debate that the financial commitments undertaken by B.O.A.C. in advance of this decision were the decisive factor, I would like to point out that under Section 2 (2, g) of the Act commitments undertaken not merely by the Corporation but by any person, including the applicant, have to be taken into account by the Board in reaching its decision.
  The commitments of B.O.A.C., therefore, could not in any case by themselves have been decisive, though they were an important feature in the present case. That does not mean that they would necessarily be of the same importance in any future case, because their commitments were undertaken before the present Licensing Act came into effect and in any
  1672
  future cases of such disputes they would be on all fours with any other applicant for a licence.
  The second factor which made their financial commitments particularly weighty at the present time was, of course, the heavy reduction of traffic on the North American route this year. We hope that hon. Members are right in believing that it is picking up, but it would not have been right in the situation at the time to take any gamble on the prospect of present expectations proving to be pessimistic.
  Finally, I should like to say one very brief word on the relation of the Ministry to the industry. Many details have been given in debate by my right hon. Friend and I shall not repeat them again. But I must emphasise that the processes of redistribution of resources was bound to be a lengthy one. It has been going on for only eighteen months and it could not have been expected to have reached finality yet. It is bound, in some cases, to be a hard process, but we believe that decisions on the execution of the policy must be left to the commercial judgment of the industry, tempered by our concern for the effects of employment about which we, as my right hon. Friend said, are in close touch with the Ministry of Labour and the Board of Trade, to make sure that any slack is taken up. We are, of course, also in touch with Members of Parliament who have constituency interests in the matter. It is natural this should be done, since in some cases we are the owners of the factories which are liable to be given up by their present operators, and in some cases we have a financial stake in the firms concerned.
  What we cannot do is to force the industry to run itself uneconomically or to place Government orders merely to keep the industry going. We believe that the industry has a tremendous future still. It exports one-third of its products and averages 9 per cent. of the total United Kingdom engineering exports, and with the growth of mass markets in the future it certainly has a big prospect.
  I have tried to show that everything that my right hon. Friend has had to decide has been decided on a balance between equally important and equally desirable ends, between public corporations and public enterprise, between what is desirable and what we can afford,

  1673
  between military and civil requirements, and so on. It is often a very fine balance, but when the decision is taken the decision cannot be a half and half decision, it has to go one way or the other. The Minister is constantly having to take such decisions on a very narrow margin of advantage. To reverse the decision of such a body as the Licencing Board is not in any way an impugnment of its judgment or discretion.
  No one is infallible in this matter, but I hope that I have successfully argued that in recent years and especially since two years ago the balance has been
  fairly struck by my right hon. Friend and struck to the advantage of the aviation industry and its development—
  Mr. Herbert W. Bowden Mr. Herbert W. Bowden (Leicester, South-West) rose in his place, and claimed to move, That the Question be now put.
  Question, That the Question be now put, put and agreed to.
  Question put accordingly, That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question:—
  The House divided: Ayes 203, Noes 138.

  Division No. 12.]

  AYES

  [10.0 p.m.

  Agnew, Sir Peter

  Errington, Sir Eric

  Macleod, Rt. Hn. Iain (Enfield, W.)

  Aitken, W. T.

  Farey-Jones, F. W.

  McMaster, Stanley R.

  Allason, James

  Fisher, Nigel

  Macpherson, Niall (Dumfries)

  Arbuthnot, John

  Gammans, Lady

  Maddan, Martin

  Atkins, Humphrey

  Gilmour, Sir John

  Manningham-Buller, Rt. Hn. Sir R.

  Barber, Anthony

  Glover, Sir Douglas

  Marshall, Douglas

  Barlow, Sir John

  Glyn, Dr. Alan (Clapham)

  Marten, Neil

  Barter, John

  Glyn, Sir Richard (Dorset, N.)

  Mawby, Ray

  Batsford, Brian

  Goodhart, Philip

  Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.

  Baxter, Sir Beverley (Southgate)

  Gough, Frederick

  Maydon, Lt.-Cmdr. S. L. C.

  Bell, Ronald

  Grant, Rt. Hon. William

  Mills, Stratton

  Berkeley, Humphry

  Grimston, Sir Robert

  Montgomery, Fergus

  Bevins, Rt. Hon. Reginald

  Grosvenor, Lt.-Col. R. G.

  More, Jasper (Ludlow)

  Bidgood, John C.

  Hall, John (Wycombe)

  Neave, Airey

  Biffen, John

  Hamilton, Michael (Wellingborough)

  Noble, Michael

  Biggs-Davison, John

  Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere (Macclesf' d)

  Nugent, Sir Richard

  Bingham, R. M.

  Harvey, John (Walthamstow, E.)

  Orr, Capt. L. P. S.

  Birch, Rt. Hon. Nigel

  Harvie Anderson, Miss

  Orr-Ewing, C. Ian

  Bishop, F. P.

  Hastings, Stephen

  Osborn, John (Hallam)

  Black, Sir Cyril

  Heald, Rt. Hon. Sir Lionel

  Osborne, Sir Cyril (Louth)

  Bossom, Clive

  Henderson, John (Cathcart)

  Page, John (Harrow, West)

  Box, Donald

  Hendry, Forbes

  Page, Graham (Crosby)

  Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hon. John

  Hiley, Joseph

  Pannell, Norman (Kirkdale)

  Braine, Bernard

  Hill, Mrs. Eveline (Wythenshawe)

  Pearson, Frank (Clitheroe)

  Brewis, John

  Hill, J. E. B. (S. Norfolk)

  Peel, John

  Bromley-Davenport,Lt.-Col.Sir Walter

  Hinchingbrooke, Viscount

  Percival, Ian

  Brooman-White, R.

  Hirst, Geoffrey

  Pickthorn, Sir Kenneth

  Brown, Alan (Tottenham)

  Hobson, John

  Pitman, Sir James

  Browne, Percy (Torrington)

  Holland, Philip

  Pitt, Miss Edith

  Bryan, Paul

  Hollingworth, John

  Pott, Percivall

  Buck, Antony

  Hopkins, Alan

  Price, David (Eastleigh)

  Bullus, Wing Commander Eric

  Hornby, R. P.

  Prior, J. M. L.

  Campbell, Gordon (Moray & Nairn)

  Hornsby-Smith, Rt. Hon. Patricia

  Pym, Francis

  Cary, Sir Robert

  Howard, Hon. G. R. (St. Ives)

  Quennell, Miss J. M.

  Channon, H. P. G.

  Howard, John (Southampton, Test)

  Ramsden, James

  Chataway, Christopher

  Hughes Hallett, Vice-Admiral John

  Rawlinson, Peter

  Chichester-Clark, R.

  Hughes-Young, Michael

  Redmayne, Rt. Hon. Martin

  Clark, Henry (Antrim, N.)

  Hulbert, Sir Norman

  Ridley, Hon. Nicholas

  Clark, William (Nottingham, S.)

  Hutchison, Michael Clark

  Ridsdale, Julian

  Clarke, Brig. Terence (Portsmth, W.)

  Iremonger, T. L.

  Roberts, Sir Peter (Heeley)

  Cole, Norman

  Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye)

  Robertson, Sir D. (C'thn's & S'th'ld)

  Cooper, A. E.

  James, David

  Roots, William

  Cordeaux, Lt.-Col. J. K.

  Jennings, J. C.

  Ropner, Col. Sir Leonard

  Corfield, F. V.

  Johnson, Eric (Blackley)

  Russell, Ronald

  Costain, A. P.

  Kerans, Cdr. J. S.

  St. Clair, M.

  Coulson, J. M.

  Kerr, Sir Hamilton

  Sharples, Richard

  Courtney, Cdr. Anthony

  Leburn, Gilmour

  Shaw, M.

  Cunningham, Knox

  Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

  Shepherd, William

  Dance, James

  Lilley, F. J. P.

  Skeet, T. H. H.

  d'Avigdor Goldsmid, Sir Henry

  Lindsay, Martin

  Smith, Dudley (Br'ntfd & Chiswick)

  Deedes, W. F.

  Linstead, Sir Hugh

  Smyth, Brig. Sir John (Norwood)

  de Ferranti, Basil

  Litchfield, Capt. John

  Spearman, Sir Alexander

  Digby, Simon Wingfield

  Lloyd,Rt.Hn.Geoffrey (Sut'nC'dfield)

  Speir, Rupert

  Doughty, Charles

  Longbottom, Charles

  Stanley, Hon. Richard

  Drayson, G. B.

  Loveys, Walter H.

  Stevens, Geoffrey

  du Cann, Edward

  Low, Rt. Hon. Sir Toby

  Studholme, Sir Henry

  Duncan, Sir James

  Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh

  Talbot, John E.

  Eden, John

  MacArthur, Ian

  Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

  Elliot, Cant. Walter (Carshalton)

  McLaren, Martin

  Taylor, Edwin (Bolton, E.)

  Taylor, F. (M'ch'ter & Moss Side)

  Vaughan-Morgan, Rt. Hon. Sir John

  Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

  Teeling, William

  Vickers, Miss Joan

  Wise, A. R.

  Temple, John M.

  Walder, David

  Woodhouse, C. M.

  Thomas, Leslie (Canterbury)

  Walker, Peter

  Woodnutt, Mark

  Thorneycroft, Rt. Hon. Peter

  Wall, Patrick

  Woollam, John

  Thornton-Kemsley, Sir Colin

  Ward, Dame Irene

  Worsley, Marcus

  Thorpe, Jeremy

  Webster, David

  Turton, Rt. Hon. R. H.

  Wells, John (Maidstone)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

  van Straubenzee, W. R.

  Whitelaw, William

  Mr. Edward Wakefield and

  vane, W. M. F.

  Williams, Paul (Sunderland, S.)

  Sir Harwood Harrison.

  NOES

  Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

  Hall, Rt. Hn. Glenvil (Colne Valley)

  Oswald, Thomas

  Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

  Hamilton, William (West Fife)

  Owen, Will

  Baird, John

  Hannan, William

  Padley, W. E.

  Bellenger, Rt. Hon. F. J.

  Hart, Mrs. Judith

  Paget, R. T.

  Bennett, J. (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

  Hayman, F. H.

  Pannell, Charles (Leeds, W.)

  Benson, Sir George

  Healey, Denis

  Parker, John

  Blackburn, F.

  Henderson, Rt.Hn.Arthur(RwlyRegis)

  Pavitt, Laurence

  Blyton, William

  Herbison, Miss Margaret

  Peart, Frederick

  Bowden, Herbert W. (Leics, S.W.)

  Hill, J. (Midlothian)

  Prentice, R. E.

  Bowles, Frank

  Hilton, A. V.

  Probert, Arthur

  Boyden, James

  Holman, Percy

  Pursey, Cmdr. Harry

  Braddock, Mrs. E. M.

  Houghton, Douglas

  Randall, Harry

  Brockway, A. Fenner

  Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire)

  Rankin, John

  Brown, Rt. Hon. George (Belper)

  Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

  Redhead, E. C.

  Butler, Herbert (Hackney, C.)

  Hunter, A. E.

  Reynolds, G. W.

  Castle, Mrs. Barbara

  Hynd, H. (Accrington)

  Robertson, John (Paisley)

  Chapman, Donald

  Hynd, John (Attercliffe)

  Ross, William

  Chetwynd, George

  Jay, Rt. Hon. Douglas

  Royle, Charles (Salford, West)

  Cliffe, Michael

  Jeger, George

  Short, Edward

  Collick, Percy

  Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)

  Silverman, Julius (Aston)

  Cronin, John

  Jones, Rt. Hn. A. Creech (Wakefield)

  Silverman, Sydney (Nelson)

  Cropland, Anthony

  Jones, Dan (Burnley)

  Skeffington, Arthur

  Crossman, R. H. S.

  Kenyan, Clifford

  Small, William

  Cullen, Mrs. Alice

  Key, Rt. Hon. C. W.

  Snow, Julian

  Davies, Harold (Leek)

  King, Dr. Horace

  Steele, Thomas

  Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)

  Lewis, Arthur (West Ham, N.)

  Stewart, Michael (Fulham)

  Deer, George

  Loughlin, Charles

  Stones, William

  Dempsey, James

  Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

  Strachey, Rt. Hon. John

  Diamond, John

  MacColl, James

  Stross,Dr.Barnett(Stoke-on-Trent,C.)

  Ede, Rt. Hon. C.

  McInnes, James

  Swingler, Stephen

  Edelman, Maurice

  McKay, John (Wallsend)

  Symonds, J. B.

  Edwards, Walter (Stepney)

  MacPherson, Malcolm (Stirling)

  Taylor, John (West Lothian)

  Evans, Albert

  Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg)

  Thornton, Ernest

  Fitch, Alan

  Marquand. Rt. Hon. H. A.

  Wainwright, Edwin

  Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton)

  Marsh, Richard

  Warbey, William

  Gaitskell, Rt. Hon. Hugh

  Mason, Roy

  Weitzman, David

  George,Lady MeganLloyet(Crmrthn)

  Mendelson, J. J.

  Wells, Percy (Faversham)

  Ginsburg, David

  Millan, Bruce

  White, Mrs. Eirene

  Gordon Walker, Rt. Hon. P. C.

  Milne, Edward J.

  Whitlock, William

  Gourlay, Harry

  Mitchison, G. R.

  Wilkins, W. A.

  Greenwood, Anthony

  Moody, A. S.

  Willey, Frederick

  Grey, Charles

  Morris, John

  Williams, W. T. (Warrington)

  Griffiths, David (Rother Valley)

  Moyle, Arthur

  Willis, E. G. (Edinburgh, E.)

  Griffiths, Rt. Hon. James (Llanelly)

  Mulley, Frederick

  Wilson, Rt. Hon. Harold (Huyton)

  Griffiths, W. (Exchange)

  Neat, Harold

  Winterbottom, R. E.

  Gunter, Ray

  Noel-Baker, Francis (Swindon)

  Hale, Leslie (Oldham, W.)

  Oram, A. E.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

  Mr. Ifor Davies and Mr. Lawson.

  Main Question again proposed.
  Mr. Ray Mawby Mr. Ray Mawby (Totnes) rose—
  It being after Ten o'clock, the debate stood adjourned.
  Committee Tomorrow.

  IMPORT DUTIES
  Import Duties (General) (No. 7) Order, 1961 (S.I., 1961, No. 2020), dated 24th October, 1961, [copy laid before the House, 27th October], approved.—[Mr. Niall Macpherson.]

  LOCAL GOVERNMENT (FINAN CIAL PROVISIONS, ETC.) (SCOTLAND) [MONEY]
  Resolution reported,
  That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to provide for revision of apportionment of expenditure and general grants among local authorities in Scotland, to make further provision as respects Scotland with respect to payments in lieu of or by way of rates by the British Transport Commission, Electricity Boards and Gas Boards, relief from rates of charitable and other similar bodies, sums borrowed by local authorities and with respect to Valuation Appeal Committees and other matters, it is expedient to authorise any increase attributable to the said Act of this

  1677
  Session in the sums payable out provided by Parliament by way of Equalisation Grant under the relating to local government in Scotland.
  Resolution agreed to.

  DECIMAL CURRENCY
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Whitelaw].
  10.10 p.m.
  Mr. Edward du Cann: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I had proposed this evening to make a stout speech describing the undoubted advantages of a decimal currency system. On first examination that might seem to have been an appropriate course, but as the matter is under consideration by Her Majesty's Government at present the moment to make representations is clearly in advance of a decision rather than subsequently, though a cynical observation might be made that this is a matter which has been under consideration by successive British Governments ever since 1799. However, a study of Erskine May and precedent makes it quite plain that any debate of this sort would anticipate legislation and, therefore, be entirely out of order.
  One could argue that it might be possible to make a speech in a different way and thereby skirt the rules of order, but I have too much regard for the rules of this House to honour them so to speak by breach rather than by observance. So it seems appropriate not to make the speech I had intended and to endeavour to use other opportunities on other occassions to press this course. I would not wish to embarrass my hon. Friend the Economic Secretary to the Treasury and other hon. Members who might speak in this debate by leaving them in the same position. I might adapt the words of Disraeli, who was an unsuccessful candidate in my constituency of Taunton in 1835, and say:
  "Though I sit down now, yet I am sure that this excellent cause will ultimately prevail."
  Mr. G. W. Reynolds: I am a little disturbed by what has happened and what has been submitted to you, Mr. Speaker, under the guise of a point of order. It appears that because the Government are considering something—and have been con-
  1678
  sidering it for a considerable time, as the hon. Member for Taunton (Mr. du Cann) has said—and have recently announced that they are considering it again, that precludes any debate on the Adjournment. This was put to you, Mr. Speaker, on a point of order.
  Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member for Taunton (Mr. du Cann) raised the point of order in a courteous phrase to explain that he concluded he could not raise the subject he meant to raise without transgressing a rule of order. This is that an hon. Member cannot discuss and debate on the Adjournment some grievance for which the sole remedy must be by way of legislation.
  Mr. Charles Loughlin: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Do I understand that the Adjournment debate which was to take place will not now take place? May I ask if it is in order once the Adjournment has been moved for an hon. Member to speak on any matter he wishes to raise?
  Mr. Speaker: Yes, the hon. Member is entirely in order, of course, if he has given warning to the appropriate Minister with whom responsibility rests of the topic he wishes to discuss. All my predecessors, while acknowledging the technical rights on hon. Members, have always emphasised the need for that to be done for the clear reason that no House of Commons advantage accrues from a mere ex parte statement to which there can be no reply.
  Mr. Jeremy Thorpe: Mr. Speaker, I take it that, despite the fact that the hon. Member for Taunton (Mr. du Cann) is in terrorem of speaking on this subject because he feels that he may embarrass the Government, I, for reasons which I need not go into—
  Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member is not entitled to say that, because it represents, in my opinion, a misrepresentation of what the hon. Member for Taunton (Mr. du Cann) said in a point of order addressed to me.
  Mr. Thorpe: Further to that point of order. I apologise to the hon. Member for Taunton if I have misrepresented what he said. I do so very sincerely, especially as he is a neighbour of mine and I have to face him once a week going down in the train.

  1679
  May I ask you for a little guidance, Mr. Speaker? I accept that this debate would, on the submission made to you by the hon. Member for Taunton, be out of order if the purport of any hon. Member's speech was to suggest legislation. I believe that is the position. But surely it is in order, albeit that the hon. Gentleman tells us that the Government are considering the matter, to impress upon the Government the merits of certain Measures and the advantages which we, representing our constituents, think might accrue to our constituents and to the country if certain particular Measures were considered by the Government. If it were otherwise, it would mean that no reference on this subject could be made.
  Mr. Speaker: Order. I do not want to stop the hon. Gentleman, except in so far as the rules of the House oblige me to do so. As far as I am at present advised, there is no possibility of introducing a decimal coinage in this country, however advisable, however much desired by the hon. Member's constituents, save by legislation, which takes it out of the range of topics which can be discussed in the half-hour debate on the Adjournment. That is the point.
  Mr. Thorpe: Mr. Speaker, may I ask for your further guidance? These Adjournment debates are greatly valued by hon. Members. Many hon. Members have subjects which they wish to have discussed. They want to have the opportunity of a Minister being present who is able to reply. It seems very odd that an hon. Member should be able to get past the Table, or should be able to get a Motion accepted, only for the House to find at the very last moment that it cannot be debated. Is there no protection at all?
  Mr. Speaker: Order. I follow the grievance, but the hon. Gentleman has something in mind which does not, in fact, happen. I receive in my official person applications for the half-hour Adjournment debate. By the practice of the House I am given a choice once a week. Subject to that, all the rest is decided by ballot. I have no power upon an application to say, "The hon. Gentleman cannot bring this within the rules of order". All I can do is to write to him and say, "Beware, my friend, of difficulties". I have no right to decline
  1680
  to accept the application. The hon. Member has the right to come here on the Floor of the House, should he decide to do so, to contend as against the duty of the Chair that he is entitled to say what he wants to say. That is why one cannot avoid this kind of instance. There is no way of protecting the House against that.
  Mr. Thorpe: Further to that point of order. Am I not right in thinking, Mr. Speaker, that it is within the province of the Government to suggest whether for the purposes of the rules of the House a particular subject is or is not in order?
  Mr. Speaker: No. I make no deceit. The Chair might well consult a Government Department about its view whether responsibility rested with it or not, but the view of the Department does not bind. The Chair decides whether the responsibility exists.
  Mr. Michael Stewart: Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. The hon. Member for Taunton (Mr. du Cann) used the phrase, "On a point of order" so I pursue that. May we ask the hon. Member, through you, Sir, to make this clear. He gave his reasons tonight—
  Mr. Speaker: Order. There is no mechanism whereby the hon. Member can, through me, address a question to another hon. Member. Such a process does not exist in our procedure.
  Mr. Edward J. Milne: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. May I have your guidance? As a result of the action of the hon. Member for Taunton (Mr. du Cann), the House has been deprived of an Adjournment debate. As Parliamentary time is so important, is there some means by which the House can protect itself against further action of this kind?
  Mr. Speaker: There is not really any abuse. An hon. Member who acquires the Adjournment, either by decision or through the ballot, as the case may be, has the right to come here and, should he decide that he can confront some difficulty with which the rules of order prima facie face him, he is entitled to try to do so, having acquired his right to the Adjournment. I regret, of course, that time may be lost, but there is not really an abuse involved.
  Mr. Milne: I was not suggesting an abuse, but was merely dealing with the technicalities of the position that has arisen. If I suggested any abuse, I withdraw it.
  Mr. Speaker: No, I did not mean to put any such construction upon the hon. Gentleman's words. What I mean is that the hon Gentleman whose Adjournment it was has done nothing more than assert a right, and has decided, at rather a late moment, that the horse will not run.
  Mr. Edward Short: If we are precluded front discussing the decimal coinage system because its introduction would involve legislation, would it be in order for me, Mr. Speaker, to make a speech against its introduction, which would not involve legislation?
  Mr. Speaker: I would prefer some notice of that problem.
  Mr. M. Stewart: Since we are now on the Adjournment, perhaps I may say a few words quite literally on the Adjournment.
  The hon. Member for Taunton gave as his reason for not raising on the Adjournment the subject of decimal coinage the fact that it would require legislation. What, I think, is puzzling the House is that that was equally true—and, if I may say so, equally obvious—when he close the subject for the Adjournment. I wonder whether it would be possible for the hon. Gentleman to explain to the House what has happened between the time when he put down the subject for the Adjournment and now which has in any way altered the position, because it was surely clear, as a matter of fact, that the introduction of decimal coinage would require legislation.
  Mr. Speaker: I do not think that it is fair to put that on the hon. Member for Taunton (Mr. du Cann). I intervene, greatly daring, from the Chair to say so, because I happen to know what did happen. It would be in the form of a letter from myself pointing out to the hon. Member the perils that might attend him on this occasion. In the circumstances, I do not think that it is fair to allow the hon. Member for
  1682
  Fulham (Mr. M. Stewart), without intending in any way to be unkind to the hon. Member for Taunton, to be unkind to him.
  Mr. Frederick Gough: I have two points of order, Mr. Speaker. First, we have had this evening a whole series of points of order that have taken up a very large proportion of the half hour normally allowed for this debate. On that basis, in the event of the hon. Member not taking advantage of his great opportunity in having this Adjournment debate, is it not true that any other hon. Member, provided he keeps within the rules of order, can raise any point he likes, irrespective of whether or not the Minister is here? Would it not, therefore, be correct for me now to make a speech on any particular hobby horse of my own, as long as I am in order?
  My second point of order is to ask whether, if my first point of order be correct, I have half-an-hour from now to make that speech, or whether the time taken up on these points of order is deducted from the time I have? Whether or not the Minister answers, I should like to know that.
  Mr. Speaker: As to the time factor, I am compelled by Standing Order to adjourn the House when the half-hour elapses, so the hon. Gentleman's eloquence in raising his final point of order was merely subtracting from the time he might otherwise have.
  I am not certain whether the hon. Gentleman was in the Chamber at the time, but I have dealt with precision once this evening with the point he otherwise raises. I think that it is not really desirable in the interests of the House—and, certainly, my predecessors have emphasised that view—that hon. Members should make, as it were, ex parte statements on topics which happen to be of interest to them, without any prospect of any reply or balance of debate in the matter. That is why my predecessors have discouraged that practice.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Adjourned accordingly at twenty-five minutes past Ten o'clock.

COMMONWEALTH RELATIONS
  Commonwealth Disaster Force
  Commonwealth Disaster Force
EDUCATION
  University Students (Loans)
  University Students (Loans)
  Grammar and Comprehensive Schools (University Entrants)
  Grammar and Comprehensive Schools (University Entrants)
  Teachers (West Riding)
  Teachers (West Riding)
  Nubian Monuments
  Nubian Monuments
  Ballroom Dancing Classes
  Ballroom Dancing Classes
MALTA
  Constitution
  Constitution
HONG KONG
  Electricity Supply Companies
  Electricity Supply Companies
KENYA
  Famine Relief
  Famine Relief
  Land Settlement Scheme
  Land Settlement Scheme
  Secretary of State (Tour)
  Secretary of State (Tour)
BRITISH HONDURAS
  Famine Relief
  Famine Relief
AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD
  Fowl Pest (Report)
  Fowl Pest (Report)
  Fishery Protection (Soviet and Polish Trawlers)
  Fishery Protection (Soviet and Polish Trawlers)
TRADE AND COMMERCE
  Hire Purchase
  Hire Purchase
NATIONAL FINANCE
  Wages, Salaries and Dividends
  Wages, Salaries and Dividends
  Excess Rents
  Excess Rents
  Income Tax and Surtax
  Income Tax and Surtax
  New University (Lancaster)
  New University (Lancaster)
HOME DEPARTMENT
  Nuclear Warfare (Civil Defence)
  Nuclear Warfare (Civil Defence)
  Spectacle Frames (Flammable Material)
  Spectacle Frames (Flammable Material)
  Middlesex Fire Brigade
  Middlesex Fire Brigade
  Immigrants
  Immigrants
  Anti-Semitic Literature
  Anti-Semitic Literature
  Prisoners (Strait-Jackets)
  Prisoners (Strait-Jackets)
LOCAL GOVERNMENT
  Gypsies
  Gypsies
WIRELESS AND TELEVISION
  625-line Television System
  625-line Television System
  TREATY OF ROME
  TREATY OF ROME
  PARLIAMENTARY COMMISSIONER
  PARLIAMENTARY COMMISSIONER
PENSIONS AND NATIONAL INSURANCE
  War Pensions (Leaflets)
  War Pensions (Leaflets)
  National Assistance, Middlesex
  National Assistance, Middlesex
SCIENCE
  U.S.S.R. Nuclear Tests (Statement)
  U.S.S.R. Nuclear Tests (Statement)

Preamble
The House met at three of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Southwell

PARKING METER RECEIPTS AND PARKING FINES
3.6 p.m.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will give a statement showing (1) the amount collected in the last month for which figures are available from parking meters in the London area; (2) from fines imposed for parking meter offences in the same area in the same period; and (3) to what specific purpose the monies so collected are to be devoted.]
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF TRANSPORT (LORD CHESHAM): My Lords, during October, 1961, in the London area, £29,311 was collected from parking meters. In the same month, tickets were issued for excess charges at meters totalling £9,773 in value. The amount collected under this head is not readily available. Information about the amount paid in fixed penalties, or in fines imposed by the courts, is not classified separately for parking meter offences; but it may help the noble Viscount to know that the total of fixed penalties paid during October in respect of parking offences in London was £10,538.
Money from parking meters and excess charges is collected by the local authority, who, under Section 89 of the Road Traffic Act, 1960, must use it either for making good to the general rate fund any deficits in operating parking places or towards the provision and maintenance of off-street parking accommodation. Money paid in London in respect of fixed penalties and fines for parking offences is dealt with according to the
944
general rules for disposal of fines imposed by magistrates' courts.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: My Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for his Answer, I wonder whether he could make it quite clear—it was rather difficult to gather from the Answer—whether, in fact, any of the moneys collected are devoted to purposes other than for the benefit of motorists.
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, I am glad to make it quite clear that money collected from parking meters, either by direct payment or by the collection of excess charges, cannot be used for any other purpose.

WESTMINSTER PARKING METERS
3.8 p.m.
EARL HOWE: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government how many parking meters are installed in the City of Westminster; how many were out of action on November 1, 1961; what is the length of time they have been out of action; and further whether it is intended in the light of experience gained to review the number already installed and to add to the number where possible.]
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, 2,569 parking meters are installed in the City of Westminster. On November 1, 1961, 99 were suspended. Of these, 85 were suspensions for one week or more, due mainly to building operations; the remaining 14 were shorter suspensions, for such purposes as furniture removals and fuel deliveries. I understand the Westminster City Council are proposing to review their existing parking meter schemes in the light of experience. They hope to increase the number of meters.
LORD MORRISON OF LAMBETH: My Lords, could the noble Lord say where the parking meters are manufactured—whether or not they are manufactured in our country? Secondly, would it be possible for the Government, at some convenient time, to produce a statement showing how the finances of

945
the parking meters work out, including the capital expenditure, the income from them and the expenditure incurred in keeping watch on them?
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, the parking meters are made in this country. So far as the noble Lord's second question is concerned, I should like to consider his suggestion, because the parking meter schemes are, of course, made by the local authorities and not by the Government. I should like to consider whether or not that can be done.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, on the question of finance that was raised just now, may I ask whether, if that is the case, the local authorities keep an entirely separate balance sheet in respect of this matter? I rather gathered that was so from the noble Lord's reply. If so, will those figures be made public?
LORD CHESHAM: I do not think that that is a question I can answer at the moment, without notice. I think the best thing would be for me to consider the matter, as I have said I would.

SOLID SMOKELESS FUELS
3.11 p.m.
LORD PEDDIE: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what steps have been taken to implement the recommendations of the Peech Committee on Solid Smokeless Fuels. (Cmnd. 999).]
THE MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO (LORD MILLS): My Lords, as my right honourable friend the Minister of Power said in another place, the Government welcomed the Report of the Committee on Solid Smokeless Fuels (Cmnd. 999). The Report has now been fully considered by Government Departments in consultation with the Gas Council, the National Coal Board and other organisations; and considerable progress has been made in implementing its recommendations.
Supplies of good quality coke suitable for burning in improved grates are
946
adequate to meet the rising demand. The gas industry has greatly increased its production of premium fuels, which are specially reactive and can be burnt on any open grate. I am glad to say that capacity is now available to meet the Committee's estimates of the possible demand for these fuels in 1962, and that there is a good prospect of supply keeping pace with demand in subsequent years.
Looking to the longer term, the National Coal Board is developing two new types of premium smokeless fuel, one at Birch Coppice in Warwickshire and the other at Graigola in Glamorganshire. The National Advisory Committee on Smokeless Fuels, under the chairmanship of my right honourable friend the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Power, is keeping the supply position under close review.
LORD PEDDIE: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his reply, but I wonder whether he is aware that the total number of premises in the smoke control areas has risen from 18,000 in 1957 to, I believe, about 380,000 last year—a reasonable rate of progress and one which we should like to see accelerated. Could an assurance be given that the availability of stocks and the rate of production of acceptable smokeless fuel are adequate to meet what we should hope to be a substantial increase in the number of areas covered by the Smoke Control Order?
LORD MILLS: My Lords, I think I can go even further than that. The Ministry of Power are able to supply smokeless fuels for an accelerated programme of smokeless zones.
LORD PEDDIE: My Lords, I hesitate to continue pressing on this point, but whilst I am glad of those assurances, there is no doubt at all that the general impression among consumers is that there is a considerable shortage of reactive fuels. There may be a reasonable supply of coke, but in popular parlance that is described as "cinders", and not acceptable to the consumer. In the Peech Report, about which I asked the Question, there was an indication that they had anticipated a shortage of suitable smokeless—
SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS: Question!
LORD PEDDIE: The question is that the Peech Report itself indicates that there would be a shortage of three-quarters of a million tons by 1962. Would the noble Lord give an indication whether that estimate was a fair one, in the light of certain subsequent developments?
LORD MILLS: My Lords, I have already said that the Ministry of Power anticipate being able to meet the demand in 1962 with suitable fuels to meet smokeless zone conditions.
LORD TAYLOR: My Lords, does the word "suitable" include or exclude coke? That is really the question.
LORD MILLS: The word "suitable", my Lords, includes suitable coke.
LORD PEDDIE: I would point out, my Lords, that coke is not considered as being suitable.
LORD HAWKE: My Lords, could my noble friend give the public any assurance that the present extremely high price of Phurnacite, one of the principal smokeless fuels, is likely to be reduced in the future?
LORD MILLS: My Lords, I am not quite sure that that arises out of the Question; nor could I answer it without notice. It is true, of course, that if everyone in the country wanted Phurnacite there would not be enough to go round. But there is suitable fuel to go round.
LORD HAWKE: My Lords, I do not think my noble friend quite heard my point. I was asking whether there was any chance of the very high price being reduced. It is £15 or —16 a ton at the moment.
LORD MILLS: My Lords, I intended to convey to my noble friend that I would want notice of that question.
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL: My Lords, would the noble Lord say whether this suitable fuel is available in every part of the country?
LORD MILLS: Yes, my Lords; that is my information.
LORD REA: My Lords, I understood the noble Lord to say that two types were being investigated. Can he indicate
948
what are the characteristics of these two types and how they differ?
LORD MILLS: My Lords, I referred to two types in the longer term. The National Coal Board are developing two new types of smokeless fuels, looking to the future. As a matter of fact, it will be another four years before they are ready, but it just shows that everyone is looking forward. I am sorry that I cannot tell the noble Lord of the characteristics of them.
LORD MORRISON OF LAMBETH: My Lords, can the noble Lord say whether these substitute fuels give a healthy flaming flame, instead of a mere glow? Is the noble Lord aware that I have an excellent Lancashire wife who makes first-class Lancashire coal fires, and they have flame, heat and life in them? We are in weekly dread (if I may be permitted this reactionary observation) that our excellent Labour Borough Council of Woolwich will drop down on us and make our ward a smokeless zone.
LORD MILLS: My Lords, I assume the noble Lord is afraid of getting away from the red flame.
BARONESS HORSBRUGH: My Lords, is it not the case that if you have a nice flaming flame, you then have smoke?

EX-PRISONERS AND KENYA LEGISLATURE
3.18 p.m.
LORD CRATHORNE: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will shortly be coming to a decision on amending the provision in the Kenya (Constitution) Order in Council which disqualifies persons who have undergone a prison sentence of two years or more from the Kenya legislature.]
THE MINISTER OF STATE FOR COLONIAL AFFAIRS (THE EARL OF PERTH): My Lords, my right honourable friend has discussed the matter very fully with the Governor and has reached the conclusion that the Constitution should be amended so as to remove the provision to which the noble Lord refers.

949
Accordingly an appropriate amendment to the Order in Council will be submitted to Her Majesty in Council in the near future. We are satisfied that responsible opinion generally in Kenya, and in particular the main political Parties, accept that in the developing situation in Kenya the Constitution should give all people, subject only to the normal disabilities, the chance of pursuing their political aims by legitimate political means. We believe that this step will help us to secure our main objective in Kenya, which is to achieve constitutional advance on lines generally acceptable to the people of the country.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: My Lords, the noble Earl may remember that the last time this matter was discussed we on this side asked the Government to remove this provision, and we now thank him for doing so. May I ask him whether this decision will be made public simultaneously in Kenya?
THE EARL OF PERTH: Yes, my Lords. I understand that, either to-day or certainly by to-morrow, the Government of Kenya will inform the people there of this decision.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, I hope the silence of the House will not be taken by the Government as meaning that every noble Lord in this House approves of the attitude it has been found necessary to take.
SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS: Hear, hear!

CONSOLIDATION BILLS
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT KILMUIR): My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.
Moved to resolve, That it is desirable that, in the present Session, all Consolidation Bills (whether public or private), Statute Law Revision Bills and Bills prepared pursuant to the Consolidation of Enactments (Procedure) Act, 1949, be referred to a Joint Committee of both Houses of Parliament.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMITTEE FOR PRIVILEGES
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (LORD MERTHYR): My Lords, I beg to move the first Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.
Moved, That the Committee for Privileges be appointed, and that the following Lords, together with the Lord President (Viscount Hailsham), the Chairman of Committees and any four Lords of Appeal, be named of the Committee:

M. Salisbury.

E. Attlee.

E. Dundee.

E. Home.

E. Listowel.

E. Lucan.

E. St. Aldwyn.

E. Swinton.

V. Alexander of Hillsborough.

L. Amulree.

L. Conesford.

L. Hylton.

L. Layton.

L. Rea.

L. Wilmot of Selmeston.

—(Lord Merthyr.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMITTEE OF SELECTION
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES: My Lords, I beg to move the second Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.
Moved, That a Committee be appointed to select and propose to the House the names of the Five Lords to form a Select Committee for the consideration of each opposed Private Bill; and that the Lords following, with the Lord Chancellor and the Chairman of Committees, be named of the Committee:

M. Salisbury.

M. Willingdon.

E. Lucan.

E. St. Aldwyn.

E. Swinton.

V. Hall.

L. Amulree.

L. Ogmore.

L. Silkin.

L. Strang. —

—(Lord Merthyr.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

PROCEDURE OF THE HOUSE
The CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES: My Lords, I beg to move the third Motion standing in my name.
Moved, That a Select Committee be appointed to consider any proposals for alterations in the procedure of this House which may arise from time to time, and whether the Standing Orders do or do not require to be altered to effect such alterations; and that the Lords following, with the Lord Chancellor, the Lord President (Viscount Hailsham), and the Chairman of Committees, be named of the Select Committee:

M. Salisbury.

E. Home.

E. Lucan.

E. St. Aldwyn.

E. Swinton.

V. Alexander of Hillsborough.

V. Bridgeman.

V. Samuel.

L. Ailwyn.

L. Amulree.

L. Henderson.

L. Macdonald of Gwaenysgor.

L. Morton of Henryton.

L. Newton.

L. Rea.

L. Saltoun.

L. Silkin.

L. Strang.—(Lord Merthyr.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.

HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICES COMMITTEE
The CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES: My Lords, I beg to move the fourth Motion standing in my name.
Moved, That the Select Committee on the House of Lords Offices be appointed and that the Lords following, with the Lord Chancellor, the Lord President (Viscount Hailsham) and the Chairman of Committees, be named of the Committee:

D. Wellington.

M. Cholmondeley.

M. Lansdowne.

M. Salisbury.

M. Willingdon.

E. Attlee.

E. Crawford.

E. De La Warr.

952

E. Dundee.

E. Home.

E. Iveagh.

E. Limerick.

E. Longford.

E. Lucan.

E. Munster.

E. Onslow.

E. St. Aldwyn.

E. Scarbrough.

E. Swinton.

V. Alexander of Hillsborough.

V. Bridgeman.

V. Gage.

V. Goschen.

V. Hall.

V. Samuel.

V. Simonds.

V. Soulbury.

L. Airedale.

L. Amulree.

L. Balfour of Burleigh.

L. Bridges.

L. Burden.

L. Chorley.

L. Henderson.

L. Jessel.

L. Killearn.

L. Lucas of Chilworth.

L. Macpherson of Drumochter.

L. Mancroft.

L. Morrison of Lambeth.

L. Morton of Henryton.

L. Nathan.

L. Newton.

L. Ogmore.

L. Rea.

L. Reid.

L. Saltoun.

L. Shackleton.

L. Shepherd.

L. Sherwood.

L. Silkin.

B. Swanborough.

L. Wise.

B. Wootton of Abinger.—(Lord Merthyr.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.
Leave given to the Committee to report from time to time.

STANDING ORDERS COMMITTEE (PRIVATE BILLS)
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES: My Lords, I beg to move the fifth Motion standing in my name.
Moved, That the Standing Orders Committee be appointed, and that the

953
Lords following, with the Lord Chancellor and the Chairman of Committees, be named of the Committee:

M. Salisbury.

M. Willingdon.

E. Buckinghamshire.

E. Munster.

L. Ailwyn.

L. Amulree.

L. Archibald.

L. Cawley.

L. Crook.

L. Faringdon.

L. Shepherd.

L. Terrington.

L. Tweedsmuir.

—(Lord Merthyr.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.

PERSONAL BILLS COMMITTEE
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES: My Lords, I beg to move the sixth Motion on the Order Paper standing in my name.
Moved, That the Personal Bills Committee be appointed to whom all Petitions for Personal Bills shall stand referred; and that the Lords following, with the Chairman of Committees, be named of the Committee:

E. Macclesfield.

V. Simonds.

L. Cohen.

L. Grantchester.

L. Morton of Henryton.

L. Silkin.

—(Lord Merthyr.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.

CRIMINAL JUSTICE ADMINISTRATION BILL [H.L.]
3.22 p.m.
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[The LORD MERTHYR in the Chair.]
Clause 1 [Additional judges of High Court]:
LORD SILKIN LORD SILKIN moved to add to Clause 1:
"At least two of the additional judges so appointed shall be appointed from among
954
judges of the County Court and the stipendiary magistrates."
The noble Lord said: I beg to move the Amendment standing in my name on the Order Paper.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I do not know whether the noble Lord would like to discuss this Amendment and the next together, as they are in the same field. It is entirely for the noble Lord and for the Committee, but I think that it might be convenient.
LORD SILKIN: Great minds seem to think alike. I was going to make that very suggestion, and I welcome the noble and learned Viscount's making it. This Amendment is directed to Clause 1, which provides for an increase in the number of High Court judges, and it seemed to my noble friend Lord Chorley and me that this would be a suitable occasion for discussing the question of the qualification of judges that were to be appointed and even the possibility of their being appointed from a wider circle than that from which they have hitherto in practice come. I recognise straight away that this may be regarded as going rather wide of the terms of the Bill itself, which provides for a simple increase in the number of High Court judges, but we thought that it would be convenient at some time to have a discussion of this kind and to see whether we were making the best use of the available legal material we have in this country. The first two Amendments are directed to inquire into this question.
As the Committee are well aware, the source from which it is possible to provide a Judiciary is the two branches of the legal profession—solicitors and barristers. Hitherto it has been the normal practice for all legal appointments to be made among the barrister branch of the profession, with some minor exceptions. A registrar of a county court is normally a solicitor and there are some masters of the Supreme Court who are solicitors, but, by and large, with the the further exception of certain posts which are quasi-judicial and with which I will not trouble the Committee, I think it will be agreed that the normal practice is for all legal appointments to be from the barrister branch of the profession.

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I want to suggest to the Committee that this is not necessarily making the best use of the available ability and legal capacity we have in this country. All professions develop and change in character. When I entered my profession half a century ago—and here I want to declare that I have no personal interest in this question at all: I have no ambition to become either a county court judge or a High Court judge, or even a Law Lord, at this time of my life—it consisted in the main of a large number of relatively small practitioners, and looking back at the profession as I then knew it, I would not have ventured at that time, if I had been in a position to do so, to suggest that the normal type of solicitor was a suitable person to be promoted to the Judiciary in any shape or form. But the position is changed to-day. We have now very large and important firms of solicitors, who specialise in the profession and are at the very top of it, with a large number of partners, men of great wisdom, experience, legal knowledge, integrity and objectiveness, who are highly respected throughout the country, men who, in my submission, are as well qualified to take part in the Judiciary as the normal member of the Bar.
It might be said that members of the Bar are accustomed to advocacy and that the type of person I have in mind is not normally an advocate, but that would not be correct. Many of the barristers appointed to the High Court are not normally advocates at all; they are experts in particular branches of the profession, which may involve a certain amount of advocacy but very little. They are, in fact, consultants. I recognise that many of the barristers appointed to the High Court have been prominent advocates in their day, but that is by no means universal, and a good many members of the Bench were certainly not prominent advocates, though they have done a certain amount of advocacy. Therefore, I would submit that though advocacy is an advantage in a member of the Judiciary, because a judge should know the laws of evidence, the kind of solicitor I have in mind is one who would readily master the laws of evidence and be perfectly competent to deliver a judgment as is required of a High Court judge and to carry out all
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the functions of a High Court judge. We know that members of the Bar who are appointed as High Court judges may be called upon to go to Assizes and do criminal work, and to deal with divorce work and all aspects of the law, of some of which they have had no experience whatever. I could name, but I do not propose to do so, many High Court judges who have been appointed and have been put on to work which they have never done before in the whole of their professional careers. There is no suggestion that they have not been perfectly competent to do it, and they discharge their duty to the complete satisfaction of everybody.
The kind of solicitor I have in mind and whom I have described, a man of wide experience, would be equally competent. Indeed, the whole of his training is directed to that very aspect of life, and he would be perfectly competent to carry out any of the functions of a High Court judge that he may be required to perform. I say that in logic and in good sense it is wrong to deprive the nation of the services of men of that kind. It may be thought, perhaps, that it is too big a jump for a solicitor who hitherto has never been appointed to the Judiciary, to be appointed direct to the High Court. If the noble and learned Viscount were to ask me to-day if I would settle for giving them the opportunity of going on to the county court bench or of becoming stipendiaries, with the prospect that there will be a ladder of promotion to the High Court, then I should be quite satisfied.
I now want to come to the question of this ladder of promotion to which I have just referred. In my view, we are losing a great deal of material by not making the best use also of the county court bench. The county court bench consists of a large number of judges who to-day have a wide jurisdiction. The jurisdiction of the county courts has been greatly extended. County court judges are required to deal with cases where anything up to £400 is involved, and where important questions of law arise; and in some matters they have unlimited jurisdiction, with no financial limit. I would not say that the jurisdiction of the county court is in all respects co-terminus with that of the Supreme Court, but, as I say, the

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county court has a very wide jurisdiction indeed, and county court judges are required to have a wide experience of life. They meet sections of the public that even High Court judges do not meet, because, apart from dealing with matters where the jurisdiction is great, they also deal with relatively small matters. You can go to the county court if you are involved in a dispute to the amount of £2 or £3, or you can go there and claim damages which might run into thousands of pounds. So that county court judges have a wide experience, and I have never been able to understand why they should not be promoted to the High Court Bench to a far greater extent than is the case at present.
I asked the noble and learned Viscount a Question yesterday as to how many county court judges have been promoted to the High Court since 1945, and when. The answer given was that five county court judges have been promoted since 1945, and the promotions were in the years 1945, 1947, 1948, 1950 and 1958. In other words, since 1950 (and I am not suggesting there is any particular significance about the year 1950) only one county court judge has been promoted to the High Court. I cannot believe that there has been only one county court judge since 1950 who has been regarded as suitable for promotion to the High Court. I am sure the Committee will agree with me that, if it is possible to find county court judges suitable for promotion to the High Court, it is most desirable that they should be so promoted.
This would have two effects. The kind of person who will accept a county court judgeship at the present time, with the knowledge that the avenue of promotion is virtually closed, that that is the end of his career and he is in receipt of a salary of something like £3,000 a year, with the greatest respect to him is not likely to be the most highly qualified person to sit in the Judiciary. I have little doubt from my own personal knowledge that there are many members of the Bar who would refuse a county court judgeship to-day, under present conditions, with the knowledge that they have perhaps one chance in 100,000 of getting to the High Court, but who would accept if they had a reasonable prospect of promotion to the High Court within
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a reasonable time. So it would have the effect of improving the quality both of the county court judges and of the High Court judges.
I suggest also that the same thing would apply to appointments to stipendiary courts: that solicitors should be eligible. Indeed, I think the case there is even stronger, because a great many solicitors act as advocates in those courts.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I am sure the noble Lord would not wish to go on with a point where he is under a misapprehension. Solicitors can be made stipendiary magistrates. I appointed one to the London bench about a year ago and one to a provincial bench.
LORD SILKIN: I was really directing my mind primarily to the existing practice. I am vaguely familiar with the fact that one or two solicitors have been so appointed; I did not imagine that they were disqualified. But my point really is that so few are made stipendiary magistrates, and that is a branch of the Judiciary where the experience of a great many solicitors would be invaluable. They have exactly the kind of experience that is required. And I suggest that there is equally good ground, for the reasons I have given in the case of the county courts, for giving stipendiary magistrates a real opportunity of going higher. I do not think I need elaborate the case any further. I want to repeat that I am basing my case on the desirability of getting as good a Judiciary as we possibly can. In saying this I am making no criticism of the existing Judiciary, except that I feel we are not really getting the best county court bench we could get. If the principle of my Amendment were accepted, then I think it would attract a better qualified type of person than we are getting.
On the Second Reading the noble and learned Viscount suggested that when he made his last series of appointments he could have got three well qualified, suitable persons for every one that he appointed. I am sure he will take this in good part; I do not wish to challenge what he said at all, but I myself went through the Law List, and I am bound to say, with some knowledge of the personnel, that if I had had the responsibility of making these appointments—which, fortunately, I had not—I

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should have had some difficulty in finding three men for every one he appointed. A good many of the people from amongst whom the appointments could be made were Members of Parliament, who are not ipso facto the most suitable persons to act as judges, although some have been very good judges. Others are not practising, others are too old, and I should have found some difficulty. Even if the noble and learned Viscount could have found three for every one he appointed, I still say that, if when he looked around he had had this avenue of promotion from the solicitors to whom I am referring and from the type of county court judge that I have in mind, he would have had a far wider choice and probably would have been able to get an even better Bench.
I hope I have made the case. I quite realise that the noble and learned Viscount cannot accept my Amendment today; I do not expect him to. My noble friend and I have put the Amendments down with a view to getting discussion on them. But I would ask the noble and learned Viscount whether he would be prepared to set up an impartial committee to look into this question and advise; to take evidence as to the quality of people who may be available, and report. If he could do that, I think a large amount of value would have come out of this debate. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 1, line 7, at end insert the said subsection.—(Lord Silkin.)
3.44 p.m.
LORD CHORLEY LORD CHORLEY had given Notice of his intention to move to add to Clause 1:
() A solicitor of the Supreme Court of not less than ten years' standing shall be eligible for the office of judge of the High Court of Justice.
The noble Lord said: In view of what has been said, perhaps it would be convenient if I were now to speak to the second of these two Amendments. My noble friend Lord Silkin has made most of the points, as one would expect from somebody who is so conversant with these matters, and I hope I shall not go over too much of the ground which he has already traversed. I should like to start with the point my noble friend made
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at the very end of his speech, when he reminded your Lordships of the statement of the noble and learned Viscount to the effect that he could have found three suitable appointees for every one of the High Court positions which he had to fill last year. That statement has naturally attracted a good deal of attention in the profession. During the days afterwards I had it frequently brought to my attention, and I must say that most of the people with whom I discussed it thought the noble and learned Viscount had been rather too optimistic, which I think is my noble friend's view. However, I am not in a position to judge about that, and he is in a very much better position than I am.
I mention that only as leading up to this point, which is putting a point which the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, made in rather a different way—namely, that the appointment of a judge is always something of a gamble. On the whole, it is a gamble which is weighted in favour of good appointments. No doubt the Lord Chancellors who make them are men of great experience, both as statesmen and as lawyers, and the result is that they do not make many mistakes. But when one considers that the qualities which are required in a judge are not by any means the same as those which are required in a first-class advocate, it is remarkable that so many of the great advocates who are appointed turn out to be very good judges. Of course, there is the minority who do not, and the noble and learned Viscount knows just as well as I do that here and there mistakes have been made. One of the difficulties, of course, is that there is not a great deal to go on from the point of view of the past history of the man in question, because he has been operating as an advocate rather than as a judge. It seems to me that the great value of the first of these Amendments is that we are there dealing with a group of men a very substantial number of whom have justified themselves certainly on the county court bench.
I am not so familiar, and was not so familiar when I was practising at the Bar, with the stipendiary magistrates, but I saw a great deal of the county court bench. There were undoubtedly during that particular time a number of county court judges who would have admirably

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filled the position of a High Court judge. It is quite true that since the war more of them have been elevated; before the war I think there was only one. If one were to mention names, I could reel off half a dozen who would certainly have made admirable High Court judges. The point is that the proof of the pudding is in the eating. The office of a county court judge is in some ways a more difficult office to fill than that of a High Count judge, because the kind of case which he handles is very much the same and he handles it often under much more difficult conditions, without such skilled help from the advocates who are appearing, often having to travel about the country in conditions of some discomfort, usually without a proper library at his disposal, and sometimes working in a building which is not really fit for the administration of justice and sometimes dating right back to the middle years of the last century. That such high quality work can be turned out by so many of the county court judges seems to me to show that we have here a reservoir from which a much larger number of the High Court Bench might well be selected.
I am sure my noble friend Lord Silkin was right when he said that if it were realised that there was a good prospect of going on, younger men at the Bar, who are in good practice and who have not been thinking about indicating that they would be ready to accept an appointment to the county court bench, would be much more ready to do so. It would undoubtedly be an incentive to them. There was a famous Victorian Lord Chancellor who once said—I do not remember his words very distinctly—that it took about fifteen years for a man to become a first-class judge. That may be a little of an overestimate, but, surely, if he could spend the first part of that time working in the county courts it would give him an experience and a capacity which would certainly redound to his credit if he were appointed to the High Court Bench. Therefore I feel there is a great deal to be said for carrying out the spirit of my noble friend's first Amendment here, and I support what he said about its being time that we made a survey of the whole of this difficult problem, the problem of judicial office in this country. It has grown, even in my time. The num-
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ber of judges in the Queen's Bench Division has much more than doubled, and the whole picture now is so different from what it was forty years ago that I feel the time has been reached when we should make a much more careful and scientific survey of the position.
With regard to the second of the two Amendments, we have, of course, more than once in this House heard suggestions made that it was time that solicitors were regarded as qualified to hold these higher judicial offices. I remember the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, who sits on the Liberal Front Bench, making a very persuasive speech to that effect within the last year or so. I consider that all judicial offices should be open to both branches of the legal profession, and I considered putting down the second of these Amendments in rather wider terms in an attempt to secure that; but, as the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, has pointed out, this Bill is one of a comparatively narrow compass, and on the whole it did not seem to me suitable to make the proposed Amendment any wider than it actually is. But I think, from what the noble Lord, Lord Silkin has said, it is pretty clear that this particular type of promotion deserves serious consideration.
I do not think it can be seriously contended that there are not a number of solicitors who are very well qualified indeed to hold judicial office. Many solicitors, as my noble friend Lord Silkin has pointed out, have quite large practices in the county courts where they contend successfully with barrister opponents. Quite a number of these have in fact transferred to the Bar. The noble and learned Lord knows an old friend of both of ours, Mr. Justice Lynskey who, if I may say so, was a very good judge at first instance, and who was a typical example of the solicitor who, having practised successfully in county court, transfers to the Bar and is then promoted to the Bench; and several others could be named. I think the Bill which we passed only in the last Session, which would enable the time that a man has served as a solicitor to count towards the period as a barrister which is required for his appointment to high judicial office, may be of considerable assistance in helping that type of transfer.
But, as my noble friend Lord Silkin has said, most of the abler solicitors are not those who do the court work; their practices are in effect in the High Court. It is true they have no right of audience to address the judge, but every barrister with much practical experience must know several men of this kind whom he would regard as of judicial timbre. I have heard it said that men of this kind would not want to abandon the lucrative practice of the solicitor's profession in order to accept judicial office, and it may possibly be that that is so, though I personally doubt whether it would be so in the case of more than a minority of them. However, whether it is or not, surely in fairness the decision should be left to the man in question to make it and not for it to be made for him by people who are looking around for arguments against this proposal.
It may also be objected, and no doubt will be, that an experience of work in court is necessary before a man can hope to be a successful judge, and I think everybody would agree with that. But, of course, many of these men in fact spend just as much of their time in court as the barristers who are now eligible. It is true they do not address the judge, but surely they are working on the case just as intensively and just as efficiently as the advocate himself; and they are just as familiar with all the technicalities of the procedure which come up, which the judge has to solve as the case goes along and which make it so necessary that the judge should have practised in matters of this sort. The fact that a solicitor is just sitting in the solicitors' benches at the court does not mean that he is not giving his expert mind to the consideration of these problems, just as much as the barrister; and very often the barrister and the solicitor consult in a little conversation before the barrister makes the submission to the judge which solves the problem and enables the judge to see the proper way of handling the situation.
I admit that the problem of selection is not altogether an easy one. As I indicated at the beginning, it is not an easy one now for the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack who is making it. It must be one of the most trying and difficult parts of his task. Certainly selecting solicitors would be even more
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difficult than selecting barristers; but I am sure that, if it is tackled vigorously and properly and with the facility which Lord Chancellors bring to bear on these problems, it certainly is not insuperable. In all the circumstances, it seems to me that a very strong case has been made out for looking at this matter of judicial appointments again, giving encouragement to those who have already been successful on the lower rungs of judicial office and also making use of that great reservoir of really able solicitors, in order that we may be able to get the ablest of the men in this profession to fill the onerous and important office of a judge.
LORD OGMORE: I feel grateful to both the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, and the noble Lord, Lord Chorley, for giving us the opportunity to discuss this very important issue to-day. As the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, has, I think, said, certainly none of us would wish to support the first Amendment in this form. So long as we have a system—and it has proved up to now a perfectly good one—under which the Lord Chancellor appoints, or at any rate recommends the appointment of, judges, obviously one must not fetter him. We cannot say, "You must appoint only three from one area of the profession", or "You can appoint only two from another area"; he must be unfettered. But on the general question I think it merits consideration—I am dealing now with the first Amendment.
As your Lordships know, in this country, unlike under the Continental system or the Colonial system, we have not had a large number of judges going up the ladder until they arrived at the summit. We have had a few eminent judges, professional full-time judges, and a large number of unpaid lay judges; in fact, over 90 per cent. of criminal work in this country is done by the lay magistracy. That is our system. Some may prefer the Continental system, some may not. This is our system, and it is very difficult to try, as it were, to include into it elements from another system. Therefore we have to assume, and should assume, that our High Court Judiciary must be maintained at a very high quality—at the level it is now. As I have said to your Lordships on many occasions, the bulwarks of our civilisation in this country are a free Press, a free Parliament and an independent

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Judiciary of high quality. We have all three, and so long as we have all three our civilisation will subsist. If any of them go, it will fall.
That being the case, it is obvious that only a few county court judges, and still fewer, in my view, stipendiary magistrates, are eligible for the High Court. But there are a few, and I think, if I may say so with the greatest respect, that succeeding Lord Chancellors have not elevated county court judges adequately in the past. I am very glad that the noble and learned Viscount, the Lord Chancellor, has appointed solicitors to the stipendiary bench, and I congratulate him upon it. I say this because I have in my time, years ago, practised before judges of the county court, some of whom were eminently suitable for the High Court—in fact, more suitable for that than for the county court. A large number, of course, were not, but there were some who were.
I recall over thirty years ago a judge in South Wales who was really a misfit in the county court. He would have made a good High Court judge but he was no good as a county court judge. He got worse as time went on. He is dead now, so there is no harm in mentioning it. I feel that if there had been a real opportunity of his being promoted to the High Court, to which he was really suited, then his own career would have been a much happier one and he would have rendered much more useful service to the community. My own law tutor, who succeeded in teaching even me a bit of law, poor man, became a county court judge. He was a good man; I used to brief him after I qualified. He had a remarkable mind, and yet he spent years on the county court bench. I feel that while the principle is right—that is to say, you must never have a ladder—I do not feel that succeeding Lord Chancellors have obtained the cream, as it were, of the county court bench for the High Court.
The second point—and this, I think, is an important one, and, from my own point of view, in a sense even more important than the other—is the question of appointing solicitors as High Court judges. The noble Lord, Lord Chorley, was good enough to mention me, but I myself never actually suggested this—not in my wildest dreams. It really raises the question of the structure of the
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professions. While the two professions—because they are not branches; they are separate professions—are organised as they are now, I do not think I should ever advocate the appointment of solicitors as High Court judges. I think there is a good case for their being stipendiaries, even a case for their being county court judges, but as the two professions are organised at the moment I cannot see any case for their being appointed High Court judges.
I am in no position to speak for the Law Society, though I am a member of it, but I think it would be found that the Law Society, or the Council, are in favour not of fusion but of a common training, a common education of lawyers and a common system of examinations; and that is my own view. I can, perhaps, speak with a little experience of this subject as I am a solicitor in this country and I am a member of two Bars in independent Commonwealth countries and have practised for some years at them. It seems to me that the position about fusion is this. While a country is in quite an elementary stage so far as its commercial and business and social system is concerned, then you have only one system of lawyers; the country cannot afford more than one system. That is how our colonial system grew up. Then at a certain stage when it becomes industrialised you need a specialist branch. It is very difficult to have fusion.
I will give an example. The first case I had abroad as a young man was as the sole lawyer defending a man charged with murder at the Assizes. Nobody would be presented with that sort of experience in this country. It was the first case I had in that country. Another occasion I remember was, as a young man of 26, trying in a Mohammedan State where, of course, the Koran is really the legal textbook, to work out what the position of the debenture holders was under the Koranic rule, which really deals with camels and dates and things of that sort. When you get to that stage you really want amendment of the law, but you also want a broader sweep of legal experience than any one man can be expected to have.
Therefore I think in this country, with all its complications, fusion really is

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not a system that would be of any benefit to the community. What we need is one profession with two branches, a common system of education, a common system of examinations; and then, after the examinations, the man could decide whether to be a general practitioner or whether to become a specialist, much as the medical profession is organised. I am sure that would be the right way. Holding these views, I do not feel that this suggestion that solicitors should become High Court judges is really one that holds water. I believe that what we should concentrate our efforts upon now is trying to bring into effect, which could be done comparatively easily, this common system of education and examination. It would not upset the Law Society, who would deal with the general practitioner. It would not upset the Inns of Court, who would deal with the specialists. But it would mean that there would be a common grounding, and it would give the young man an opportunity after he had qualified—that is the point—of deciding what branch of the profession to go into, and not as now, having to decide before the training when he knows nothing about it at all.
I make this appeal to my friends at the Bar, and particularly the Benchers, to look at this matter carefully. I have been critical of the Law Society in the past, but I am glad to say that to-day, under the enlightened leadership of a series of outstanding Presidents and the administration of Sir Thomas Lund, the Law Society are prepared to go forward with this plan and other plans. They have made arrangements to go into the whole question of the Common Market, for instance. There are problems we lawyers have to face in the future that we have never had to face in the past. We cannot do this as we are, divided on illogical lines. I ask the Benchers to look at this problem, not in the terms of the past but of the future.
4.8 p.m.
LORD DENNING: May I first say a word on the point which the noble Lords, Lord Silkin and Lord Chorley, raised, whether there should be a ladder of promotion within the judicial hierarchy, because it raises very serious questions of principle? Hitherto in this country people have been chosen as
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judges, men of mature age, from 45 to 55 years of age, and appointed either to the High Court Bench or the county court bench, and then it is the expectation that that is their job for life without any special hope of promotion. Is that right? The underlying principle of our system is this: judicial decisions are not to be influenced, on the one hand by a fear of dismissal, on the other hand by the hope of promotion. Indeed, our judicial independence and impartiality rests on that underlying principle. But in other countries, such as on the Continent of Europe, judges are appointed on a career system, a man starting as a judge when he comes out of the university and going up through the judicial hierarchy.
I have heard and know that there are great dangers in this system from favouritism and influence. Nominally there is security of tenure; they cannot be dismissed except for misconduct. But the hope of promotion and the favouritism which is thereby accorded, and the influence of a decision, as such, to suit the powers in authority, mean that there is a great danger in introducing into this country a ladder of promotion. As the system works now, an able man, ambitious to reach a High Court judgeship, does not accept a county court judgeship. In that way we reach a level whereby, on the whole, the best and most able men wait for, and are appointed to, High Court judgeships. Others who are not perhaps quite in that category are county court judges or stipendiary magistrates, and the like. They make that their job. There are exceptions and, quite rightly, the Lord Chancellor has on occasion made outstanding appointments whereby men of the county court bench are appointed to the High Court Bench. We know them all, and well have they done their work; but I would suggest that there should be no regular ladder of promotion, and that on the whole the system as it is works well. So much for the ladder of promotion.
The next question is whether solicitors should be available for appointment to the High Court Bench. We all know, as the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, said, that men of the most eminent and outstanding qualities are to be found among the solicitor's profession, and they

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always have been. Barristers and solicitors are two specialist branches—as much specialist as are physicians and surgeons in the medical profession. The barrister is, so to speak, a specialist in the trial of cases. If you should ask any of our friends who are solicitors how to deal with the rules of pleading, I venture to think that they would not know the difference between a traverse and a confession and avoidance; or if a question arose in the courts as to the rules of evidence, would a solicitor, however experienced and knowledgeable, be able to jump up at once and say, of his own knowledge, "What the soldier said is not evidence", or to deal from his experience with questions as they come up every moment?
But perhaps, more than anything else, the best example that can be given is that at the end of a case when it comes to the summing up to a jury or to putting the facts of a case; or, in the Court of Appeal, to the judges, immediately upon the end of the presentation of the case, summarising the whole of the issues and giving their judgment at once. I can tell your Lordships that the way that our judges do it is the envy of the civilised world. I have many friends in the United States of America, where judges are selected from a fused, combined profession. Many of them have said to me, "I cannot think how your judges can do it: how they can sum up to the jury at the end of a case; how judges of the Court of Appeal, without reserving judgment, can deliver a full extemporary judgment covering all the issues at once." What is the answer? It is simply that as advocates they have been trained for twenty, twenty-five or thirty years to go through the facts, to sum up the evidence, and to put the case to the jury or to the judge. It is a specialist ability in the conduct of the trial of cases which can be acquired only by experience; and this specialist system, I suggest, produces judges who are, because of it, the envy of the civilised world.
To take the great solicitors' branch of the profession, the United States have their corporation lawyers who hold a preeminent place in the community, far above the trial lawyers, as they call them. Here we have solicitors who are heads of many companies and firms, and who exercise great influence and control
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millions in money. They have their great avocation, but they are not specialists in the trial of cases. That is one reason why I suggest that there should be no general rule, as my noble friend puts in this Amendment. But, as it is all one profession, is not what my noble friend Lord Ogmore said the right solution—namely, that we ought to have a more common system of legal education between the two branches? We ought at least to have a common Part I.
There have been discussions on it for some years, but they seem to go on for ever. The examinations ought, so far as possible, to be common so that one need not make up his mind at the first moment, but in the first ten or twenty years of practice, so if he feels that he can do a solicitor's work better than a barrister's or vice versa, he can change from one to the other, and those who have ambitions towards the bench can achieve them in that way. But, having made his decision and having committed himself to his profession then, like all of us, he must stick to it. In that way the question can be solved. But, on the whole, the present system has not served us too badly, and I suggest that we can go on just as well as we are.
LORD MANCROFT: I should like to be associated with the views just put so lucidly by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Denning. It seems to me that one overriding principle should be able to cover the Lord Chancellor in this immensely difficult task, and that should be the unfettered right to choose the best man at the right moment for the right job. If we tie the Lord Chancellor's hands by suggesting, as this first Amendment does, that there should be a certain proportion of county court judges as High Court judges, that will be carried further to the Court of Appeal, where the same difficulty will arise. We shall have, as the noble and learned Lord rightly points out, the idea of a ladder of promotion within the Judiciary, something which I think would be wholly undesirable. There should be no ladder of promotion, nor should there be any proportional adjustment between various members of the Judicial Bench.
Before the war it was occasionally thought that a Member of Parliament who was also a Silk of certain standing

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had some right to be considered for a High Court judgeship. That gave rise to much complaint. It also produced several fine judges. If one looked at the composition of the High Court Bench in those days, it was impossible to tell to what political Party a certain judge had belonged in his political days. That was a great credit to all concerned. I think that now we have gone a little too far the other way, as men of eminence in the legal profession will not go into Parliament because they think that the fact that they are political Q.C.'s will stand in the way of possible promotion to the Bench. That is equally bad. It is for this reason that I would oppose the sentiments in the first two Amendments and leave the Lord Chancellor as unfettered as possible, as preceding Lord Chancellors have been, to produce the Bench that he thinks he can best find solely on merit and not on any mathematical qualifications.
I also agree with the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, that many solicitors of the highest possible standing have an intellectual calibre second to none. But if I might venture to remind your Lordships, I moved the Second Reading of the Barristers (Qualification for Office) Bill, 1961, which dealt with this specific point. If a young man in practice as a solicitor finds that advocacy is really his bent, it is particularly easy now for him to change his profession, as indeed a few have done.
Your Lordships will remember that at the time of the Nuremberg trials the world at large, and the legal world in particular, were outstanding in their praise of the performance of the two members of the English Judiciary who comprised the court. The reason put forward by one American legal paper was the intellectual dominance of character which those two judges exercised. The American journalist pointed out that the powers of an English High Court judge—of a red judge from the Bench—rest as much as anything upon the respect given him by the Bar in the court in which he practises because there is not a barrister present who does not know that the judge knows just as much about it as he himself does, and probably a great deal more. With the greatest respect for the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, and the solicitors' profession, I
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do not think that that practice would prevail if what he proposes were to become law. I therefore very much hope that your Lordships will not support these two Amendments but will allow the Lord Chancellor, as Lord Chancellors in days gone by have had, unfettered power with nothing except his own experience and judgment to guide him in choosing.
LORD CHORLEY: The noble Lord would agree with me that the Lord Chancellor has not got unfettered power, because even if he wanted to appoint a solicitor he could not do it.
LORD MANCROFT: I want the power that he now has to be unfettered. I am trying here to prevent unsuitable measures which would not produce the results which have hitherto been produced. I suggest that if the noble and learned Lord of the day on the Woolsack is still given the right to exercise his powers unfettered in any way, Lord Chancellors will continue to be able to produce what they have done in the past, by far and away the best judicial Bench in the world.
4.22 p.m.
LORD MESTON: The whole problem arises from the fact that there are two branches of the legal profession, barristers and solicitors. There should be, as in many other parts of the world including many parts of the Commonwealth, only one branch, and that is the lawyers. There are not two branches of engineering, two branches of accountancy or two branches of surveying; there is only one branch. Therefore there should be only one branch of the legal profession, and that is simply the people known as lawyers. So far as specialisation is concerned, you could have all the specialists you like who would set up on their own and carry on just as they are to-day. There would be no objection to that at all. They could do exactly the same as the medical profession. On the one hand, you can go to see an ordinary medical practioner, and, on the other hand, if you want to pay one hundred guineas you can go along to Harley Street. It would be exactly the same for the Temple.
The people who are to be considered are not the legal profession—and that is always where we go wrong—but the

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general public. It is the general public which has to pay far more for its law to-day than it should pay, because there are two branches of the profession. I am going to raise this matter at a later date. I shall be hopelessly defeated by the "Old Pals' Club" in your Lordships' House. I know them all, and I have the greatest admiration for them, but still they will completely defeat me. I believe that when we have one branch of the legal profession it will be cheaper, it will be simpler, and it will do away with most of the Lord Chancellor's problems.
4.24 p.m.
LORD CONESFORD: The noble Lord who has just sat down advocates the fusion of the legal profession. I suppose that almost anything is in order to-day, but there is nothing in this Bill about the fusion of the two branches of the legal profession, nor is there any Amendment proposing that they shall be fused. The arguments against both the Amendments which are on the Paper, which for convenience we are discussing together, have been convincingly given, I think, by my noble and learned friend, Lord Denning, and many arguments were also given by the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, who in his interesting speech made it quite clear with very good reasons that he could not support either of the Amendments on the Order Paper. That being the case, and such convincing reasons having already been given, I do not wish to repeat any of the arguments already made. I merely wish to give one additional argument against the first Amendment on the Order Paper.
My noble and learned friend the Lord Chancellor is already at liberty, should he think fit, and at some time he may think fit, to recommend the promotion of a judge of the county court. He already has that power. But what would be the position of the unfortunate county court judge who was promoted, if this Amendment were carried? He would universally be known as the statutory county court judge promoted to the High Court Bench. The assumption would be—and this he would have to live down—that he had been appointed because it was compulsory to appoint somebody who was a county court judge. In the interests of any possible county court judge who may in future be promoted, I
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give that as an additional reason for the rejection of the first Amendment.
4.26 p.m.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: May I make two preliminary points? The first is that, in my answer to the debate on the Second Reading, I forgot a subsection and made a conjecture which was wrong. I informed the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, of this, but I desire to express publicly my regret for a lapse of memory. I am only slightly reassured that even Homer can nod, because I think there was a moment when the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, himself, was not too sure who could be appointed stipendiaries. I can tell him—and this will please him, I know—that the salary of a county court judge is £4,400 a year with a corresponding pension, and not £3,000 as he had in mind.
But I want to tell him that I listened with great care, and I noted most particularly the points that he made on his Second Reading speech, of which these Amendments are really the consequence. He made the point clearly about the desirability of members of the lower judiciary having adequate opportunity for promotion to the higher court Bench. I agree that it is important that county court judges, and other members of the lower judiciary, such as stipendiary magistrates, should be considered for appointment to a higher office if they are suitable for promotion, and I can tell your Lordships that I always do consider that when a vacancy occurs. But I think, really, that your Lordships are all agreed—nobody has said anything to the contrary—that it would be quite wrong that any restrictions should be placed on the Lord Chancellor in considering What recommendations he should make to Her Majesty for appointment to the High Court Bench. His duty is to put forward the names of those who, in his opinion, are the best men available for appointment, and nothing could be more prejudicial to the good administration of justice than to require a proportion of the vacancies to be filled in the manner suggested by the Amendment.
I should just like to say to the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, that it is not a question of others—for example, county court

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judges—not being suitable; it is a question of the candidate who is appointed being the best man. That is the test and I try to fulfil it. But I give the noble Lord the undertaking, without any reservation at all, that the lower judiciary will be considered by me and I will go carefully into this point whenever I have an appointment to make.
Now on the second Amendment, with regard to the appointment of solicitors to the High Court Bench, I think that the arguments of both the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Chorley, fell into two parts. The first was: will vacancies be filled by men of the necessary quality? There has been some discussion about this, and both noble Lords thought that I had been optimistic in saying, when I appointed eight judges a year ago, that I could have found 24 suitable candidates. Well, of course, everyone is entitled to say that my opinion is wrong—it is an occupational risk of being a Minister of the Crown—but all I can say, is that it was not just a view which was expressed before your Lordships; it was a view that had its foundation on a list which I wrote out in my own hand, and it is my view.
I was glad that what was said by Mr. Geoffrey Lawrence, the Chairman of the Bar Council, in his letter to The Times, was referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Silkin. It is a fair comment, of course, that one would expect the Chairman of the Bar Council to express the view that that letter held, but I would remind Lord Silkin of what was said by my noble and learned friend the Lord Chief Justice. He said that there were many members of the Bar still well fitted to become judges, and that there was no risk of the quality of the Bench being diluted by further appointments. He also referred to the fact that in 1861, when the population of England and Wales was approximately 20 million, there were 18 judges in the three Common Law courts, whereas to-day, with a population of approximately 45 million, the number of judges in the Queen's Bench Division was 32, thus indicating that the number of Common Law judges had not kept step with the increase in population. That, raises many points, but I think it is a fair comment on the problem that we are considering.
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I think that the argument for making solicitors eligible for appointment to the High Court Bench must rest on the second limb: not on the fact that vacancies will not be filled by men of the necessary quality unless this is done, but on the proposition that there is among solicitors a reservoir of experience of a kind which ought to be represented on the Bench. I think the short answer to this argument can be put in the words of the editorial comment in the Solicitors' Journal of November 17 of this year—that
"practice at the Bar is the best preparation for the Bench".
The accepted view in this country has always been that what is needed in a judge is experience of a kind which can be gained only by active practice as an advocate in the superior courts.
I agree, broadly, with the qualities that the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, suggested as being necessary. There must be integrity, not only in the narrow sense, but integrity of mind, that refuses to take a short cut in a case by making easy and perhaps doubtful findings of fact; impartiality; a wide knowledge of law; a quick grasp of fact; and (I agree with the noble Lord) a wide experience of human nature. But there are also two other qualities which I think are essential. The first is that the experience of practice must not be a matter extracted from books, but a second nature and feeling in the judge's mind. The other is more difficult to describe, but every lawyer who has practised in courts will understand it. It is the "feel" of a case, the atmosphere, the background and the strength, which again is a second nature which comes from experience of conducting cases in courts.
No doubt many solicitors have wide experience as advocates in the inferior courts and in the various tribunals existing outside the framework of the ordinary courts of law, but it is no criticism of the county courts or the magistrates' courts to say that the work coming before them is, on the whole, very different in character from the work of the High Court. Here, I would respectfully disagree with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Chorley. I have practised in every kind of court. I am not speaking as one who has not had

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experience of being an advocate in magistrates' courts or in county courts; and I should say that I am not putting it too high when I say that, on the whole, the work is very different in character from that done in the High Court.
Does one not then come to this: that any solicitor who was to be considered for appointment to the Bench would naturally have to be one of the leaders of his profession, just as it is from leading members of the Bar that the Judiciary are now chosen? But the leading members of the solicitors' profession are not usually men with recent, constant experience of court work, still less of advocacy, but are those whose work has lain in quite different fields—as wise advisers in matters of high importance behind the scenes, in regard to estates, companies, commercial matters and the like. I do not think that that is an unfair description of the leading solicitors in this country.
The noble Lord, Lord Meston—I am sorry he is not here—made a brilliant cavalry charge in favour of fusion which delighted us all by its manner but which did not impress very much, certainly myself, by its matter. I think that the two separate branches, as I like to call them, each perform functions which, though complementary to each other and of equal value to the public, are nevertheless quite distinct. Here, the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, made the point which is important: that there is a difference between an advanced, industrialised and highly commercial society and a society in its earlier stages. I am referring to the first, the advanced, industrialised and highly commercial society. In those countries where there is no formal division between one branch of the profession and the other, there is nevertheless, in practice, a clear division between the trial lawyers, whose work lies mainly in the field of advocacy, and those who confine themselves to non-contentious work and the preparation of cases for trial. In those countries, appointment to the bench in the superior courts is normally confined to those who have had experience of advocacy in those courts.
There is, admittedy, an important exception to this in countries such as the United States, where leading academic lawyers are often appointed to the Bench—and I congratulate the noble
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and learned Lord, Lord Chorley, for not dragging that point in, because it does not arise on these Amendments, although I can imagine he feels great sympathy with such appointments. But it is traditional for the Bar to approach cases more objectively than is possible for the solicitor, who is in immediate contact with his lay client. This sense of objectivity assists in maintaining the barrister's sense of immediate responsibility to the court before which he is appearing, and he is thus able to act as a bridge between the solicitor and his client, on the one hand, and the wholly impartial judge, on the other. In saying that, I hope no one will misunderstand me for a moment. I do not mean by that to denigrate the high standard of conduct of the solicitors' branch of the profession. It is only the fact that the ability to get the advice of someone who has not been in such close contact is, I think, a valuable thing.
I agree with what has really been the burden of the song of many noble Lords: that one of the reasons for the prestige of the English High Court Bench is that the judges are generally accepted as being the professional superiors of those who practise before them, in experience and standing in the profession as much as in knowledge of the law. They are appointed at a time when they have reached intellectual maturity in the practice of their profession, with, as I have tried to indicate, all that this means. While at the Bar a judge has gained a wide experience in the actual conduct of cases and, in so doing, has had the best opportunity of observing and acquiring the habits and outlook of the Bench. This constant practice enables him to assimilate these habits of mind and behaviour, and thus to pass on in his turn the accumulated judicial sense of generations of English judges. There are things which can be learnt only by precept and example, and the judicial approach is one of them.
I do not want to leave it there, because I think that would be taking a negative view. Here I agree with what was said by the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, and by my noble and learned friend Lord Denning. While it would not be in the public interest that those whose experience has lain in one branch of the law should be eligible for appointment

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to posts for which experience in the other branch is the best qualification, it is in the public interest that the existing barriers towards ready interchange between one branch of the profession and the other should be removed, so that a man who has started as a solicitor and finds that his qualities fit him more readily for practice at the Bar should be able to qualify as a barrister more easily than he can do at present.
If your Lordships would bear with me, I should like to continue with a comment by the Solicitors' Journal—I am quoting that publication because I think it is a fair source of quotation for me:
"We have no doubt that practice at the Bar is the best preparation for the Bench and it is the duty of the whole legal profession, solicitors and teachers as well as barristers, to ensure that all who are likely to make good Judges have the opportunity to practise as barristers without the artificial barriers which now stand in their way. There should be a closer relationship between the two branches of the profession so that it would be easier to transfer from one to the other.…"
As has been said in this debate, the problem of a common system of education, or, at any rate, a system with parts in common, is one that has received a good deal of consideration in recent years from the Council of Legal Education and the Law Society; and, in my view, it is plainly desirable that further progress should be made in this direction, though, of course, it is entirely a matter for the professional bodies concerned. I was very glad when my noble friend Lord Mancroft introduced the Barristers (Qualification for Office) Act, 1961, which enables a barrister, who before his call to the Bar had been a solicitor, to count the years spent in practice as a solicitor towards his eligibility for any office. The converse case has already been dealt with. I am very glad that, as he had taken what I thought was a very wise step in furthering that Bill, he has supported me to-day; and I am very glad that the noble Lord, Lord Chorley, should have mentioned the name of Mr. Justice Lynskey, who had been a solicitor, was then at the Bar, and became a Silk and then a judge. As he will remember, I spent six years in his Chambers, and learned a very great deal from that opportunity. I think his was the only
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name that has been mentioned in this debate, and I am very glad that it should be his. I have such happy memories of it, and it was mentioned so honourably by the noble Lord.
These are my views on the general problem. I hope your Lordships do not think that I have infringed unduly upon your Lordships' time by treating it more generally, but on the first point I assure the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, that all he has said will be very carefully considered by me so long as I hold my present office, and I am sure by those who succeed me. On the second point, I would ask him to reconsider it, as Lord Ogmore and Lord Denning really suggested, from the point of view of transferability rather than of making the immediate step.
LORD DOUGLAS OF BARLOCH: May I ask the noble and learned Viscount one question arising out of the extremely interesting and very well balanced survey which he has given of this problem? It is on the point of transfer or passing from one branch of the legal profession to the other. I have not looked into this recently, but my recollection is that it used to be the case, at any rate, that it was not possible for a solicitor to transfer to the barristers' branch of the legal profession unless he got himself struck off the Roll of solicitors and ceased to practise for quite a considerable period of time, whereas a barrister could get himself transferred, if he so pleased, to the solicitors' branch of the legal profession without having to sacrifice his means of livelihood for any appreciable period. If there is to be transferability, and therefore the opportunity of advancement and promotion equally for all members of the legal profession, surely that anomaly, if it still exists, ought to be remedied.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I am sorry to say that I do not carry the Consolidated Regulations in my head, and even if I thought I did, after my experience on Second Reading I should certainly not trust to my memory. But I will look into the point and write to the noble Lord, Lord Douglas of Barloch, about it. I hope he will be content with that.
LORD SILKIN: I am very grateful to every noble Lord who has taken part in the debate on these two Amendments. I would say to the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, and to the noble Lord, Lord Conesford, in particular, that I do not think they appreciated, if I may say so, the spirit in which these Amendments were moved. In this House we are less rigid in our Rules of Order, but, nevertheless, we do try to maintain some rules of order, and when I felt that discussion on this subject was useful, I had to put down an Amendment which had some semblance of being in order, and this was the best I could do. No doubt if I had had the benefit of the advice of the noble Lord, Lord Man-croft, or of the noble Lord, Lord Cones-ford, I might have done better.
But I did not seriously want to fetter the Lord Chancellor's discretion in appointing judges to the High Court. That was not my purpose. I did not really expect him to agree that two out of five should be county court judges, and that was not the spirit in which I moved the Amendment. If the noble Lord had listened he would realise that I never said a single word in advocacy of that particular suggestion. My real point was that county court judges should be considered far more than I thought they had been in the past. In the last eleven years, only one county court judge has been promoted to the High Court, whereas a very large number of persons have been created High Court judges. It did not seem to me as if they had been adequately considered for such promotion. I am glad to have the noble and learned Viscount's assurance that they will be fully considered. In those circumstances, one may expect that in the next eleven years we shall have more than one appointment from the county courts.
On Amendment No. 2, I would let the two noble Lords into a secret. I could not very well suggest that solicitors should be appointed to the county courts, because that is not in the Bill at all. Therefore, in order to get a discussion on the subject I had to suggest what I did not really mean to suggest—namely, that they should be qualified to act as High Court judges. However, what I implied in my speech was that solicitors might be appointed as county
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court judges, and from that point they would take their chance of being promoted to the High Court. Even that is not within the scope of the Bill and therefore I cannot expect the Committee to accept this Amendment. But I hope that it will be further considered.
The noble and learned Viscount has made the suggestion that, if the two professions were virtually interchangeable, it would be easy for a solicitor to become a barrister. The tendency might be moving in that direction, because there is considerable talk about the examinations being identical for the two professions. Then, if a solicitor had ambitions to go on the Bench, it would be possible for him to change his profession, and if the years during which he was a solicitor counted for qualification, there would be no difficulty. But I think that my noble friend Lord Douglas of Barloch—again I am not going to be dogmatic—was right in saying that there are considerable economic and other difficulties in the way of solicitors becoming barristers, though there are no such difficulties in the way of the reverse taking place. Until solicitors can become barristers, there is in every way an effective bar against what many people consider would be a desirable thing to happen—namely, that solicitors should be eligible not only to become stipendiary magistrates, which is already the case, and which could be more effectively done if it were more generally recognised, but also to become county court judges.
Having ventilated the question, I hope that it will not be allowed to rest here and that we shall see more county court judges on the High Court Bench as time goes on, that we shall see more solicitors as stipendiary magistrates and that in the public interest the two professions may get closer together with a view to the possibility of there being greater interchangeability. That would meet the point I had on the second Amendment. I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 1 agreed to.
Clause 2 agreed to.
Clause 3 [Sheriff of Hallamshire]:
4.54 p.m.
LORD REA LORD REA moved in subsection (1) to leave out "Hallamshire" and insert "Hallam". The noble Lord said:

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I beg to move the Amendment standing in my name on the Marshalled List. After the interesting points we have been discussing in regard to Amendments Nos. 1 and 2, I must confess that this small Amendment is very pedestrian, very straightforward and not extremely important. It does not seem in any way to alter the main terms of the Bill. If your Lordships would be good enough to turn to Clause 3, you will see that the Bill, in the latter part of subsection (1), actually creates a separate county by the name of Hallamshire, and a few lines before that it says clearly that the people who live in the neighbourhoods of Barnsley, Doncaster, Rotherham and Sheffield will no longer apparently be Yorkshiremen. With what effect that will have on the cricket table I am not concerned at the moment, but I suggest that the use of "Hallamshire" for a subdivision of an area of this sort is rather inconvenient by virtue simply of the ending in "shire" and for no other reason at all.
It is obvious that, when we have a big area like this, it should be subdivided, and I hope that the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor will not think I have any doubt that this is a perfectly proper thing to do. But in the case of other counties we have Cambridgeshire and the Isle of Ely, Hampshire and the Isle of Wight, Lincoln divided into Lindsey, Kesteven and Holland, Northamptonshire and the Soke of Peterborough, Suffolk and Sussex divided into East and West divisions, and Yorkshire, as your Lordships know, into the East Riding, West Riding and North Riding. This might be a suitable time to insert a "South Riding" but I do not press that here.
To ordinary people like your Lordships and the man in the street it would look as if we had added a new geographical county to the United Kingdom. For a foreign visitor, it would be a geographical and typographical confusion. It would be hardly suitable for a teacher to make children in our primary schools recite the counties of England and say: "But for the purpose of the law relating to sheriffs, the Sheffield Division of the County of York, under the Criminal Justice Administration Act, 1961, is Hallam-shire but not in any other sense."
What would we call the County of "Hallamshire"? I have referred to Bartholomew's Gazetteer, which I think is a reliable book, and both there and in other books of reference it is clearly stated that Hallamshire is an ancient Lordship in the Sheffield Division of West Riding in Yorkshire, mentioned in the Domesday Book as Hallun. Neither Hallam nor Hallamshire is then the ordinary word, but I am sure that to those who live in that district they are interchangeable and one is as good as the other. Therefore, purely for the sake of avoiding another "shire", such as Devonshire, Leicestershire, Gloucestershire and Aberdeenshire, let us cut out Hallamshire in this limited Bill, which is not directed to geography, and have the word "Hallamshire" constituted "Hallam".
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 27, leave out "Hallamshire" and insert "Hallam".—(Lord Rea.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The noble Lord has moved his Amendment charmingly. I hope that he will bear with me if I give him the results of the most elaborate researches I have made into this intricate problem which he has put before us.
It is true that the Manor of Hallun is mentioned in Domesday Book and that it is not until 1161, that one finds Halumsira and in 1276 Hallumshire. Whatever may have been the precise area designated by "Hallam", the old Manor of Hallun which is in Domesday was situated in what is now Sheffield and was, after the 14th century—the period in which Sheffield cutlery first became sufficiently famous to justify an allusion in Chaucer—quite eclipsed by it in importance. Its name was preserved in the two townships of Nether Hallam and Upper Hallam, which are now comprised in Sheffield and also in the Parliamentary Division of Sheffield called Hallam. On the other hand, Hallamshire seems to have been used to denote an area outside the borough of Sheffield, as well as the borough itself. Thus, while the antiquarian, Joseph Hunter, with whom, I am sure, the noble Lord, Lord Rea, is most familiar, entitled his history and topography of the Parish of Sheffield in 1819, Hallamshire, the Parliamentary Division of Hallamshire, which existed

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from the Third Reform Act in 1885 (introduced by a Liberal Government, if my history is right) till the First World War, was entirely outside Sheffield, which contained the Hallam Division at the same time. The same can be said of the petty sessional division of Hallamshire which is mentioned in Statutory Instruments as recently as 1955, but is only one of the constituent parts of the proposed new shrieval county.
In sum, the history of these names seems to show that, whereas "Hallan" has been applied to parts of Sheffield, and perhaps at a very early date to ill-defined areas of land outside, "Hallam-shire" has been applied over a number of centuries both to the whole of Sheffield and to a considerable area in the south of the West Riding, of Yorkshire. It is therefore not necessarily accurate to say, as the noble Lord, Lord Rea, does, that Hallam and Hallamshire are synonymous.
The use of the syllable "…shire" at the end of the name, another point dealt with by the noble Lord, is not unusual in the North of England, as, for instance, Bedlingtonshire, Norhamshire and Island-shire in Northumberland, which were formerly detached parts of the county of Durham, and Craikshire in the North Riding, which also was formerly part of Durham. Hexhamshire from ancient times has been the name of an area round Hexham. In Yorkshire, apart from Hallamshire itself, one also find the petty sessional divisions of Howdenshire and Allertonshire.
Moreover—and I ask the noble Lord, who, as we all know in this House, is a well of English undefiled, to note this point—as the shire is being created for the purposes of a new High Sheriff (shire-reeve) the suffix appears to be particularly appropriate. In view of the preliminary words of the clause, to which the noble Lord referred, there is a further risk. As I told your Lordships, my noble friend Lord Scarbrough, who is Lord-Lieutenant of the West Riding, has agreed to the name "Hallamshire". So, from authority as well as history, I consider that I have some reasonable arguments, and perhaps, having heard what has gone into the consideration of this matter, the noble Lord will not press his Amendment this afternoon.
LORD REA: If I may be permitted to surface again, I should like to thank the noble and learned Viscount very much for the great trouble he has obviously gone to in this matter. I think it would be discourteous for me to press the matter further beyond saying that I wish he could have found some other name. I can only say that I give way to the sheer force of argument and beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment by leave withdrawn.
Clause 3 agreed to.
Clause 4:
County and borough sessions
(5) Any functions exercisable before the commencement of this Act by an appeal committee appointed under section seven of the Summary Jurisdiction (Appeals) Act, 1933, shall after the commencement of this Act be exercisable by the court by which the committee was appointed.
(6) Arrangements shall be made to secure, so far as practicable, that where a court of quarter sessions for a county other than London deals with a case on appeal from a juvenile court not less than half the justices sitting are justices qualified to sit as members of a juvenile court.
LORD GODDARD LORD GODDARD moved to leave out subsections (5) and (6). The noble and learned Lord said: The object of this Amendment is to remove subsections (5) and (6) of the clause, which deal with the abolition of the appeal committee. In common with most of your Lordships, I welcome this Bill very much; I think it is a most useful measure and will do a great deal of good. But I regret, and regard as a retrograde step, that the appeal committee of quarter sessions is to be abolished. The Streatfeild Committee have raised certain points with regard to the working of the appeal committee and referred to certain difficulties which they feel have arisen from time to time, which could be quite easily cured while keeping the committee in being.
The object of the provision in the Act in 1933 was, first of all, to ensure that the most experienced magistrates in the county should sit as the court of appeal. We are dealing, of course, with appeals from magistrates to magistrates. An appeal to quarter sessions is unlike an appeal in the High Count, where an appeal from a judge goes to a Count of Lords Justices, or an appeal from Lords Justices to this House. A magistrate's

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decision is brought before other magistrates. Therefore, I venture to suggest it is desirable that the Committee which has to deal with the appeals should be, if I may so put it, the élite of the magistracy of the county. During the time I was both judge and Lord Chief Justice I had considerable experience of these appeal committees and their working. It has always seemed to me that they did their work remarkably well, and I have never had any complaint from quarter sessions generally suggesting that the appeal committee should be abolished. I think the object of the Streatfeild Committee's recommendation was that they thought a court sitting should be able to do everything at the same time and that any serious dichotomy is liable to delay things.
One of the qualified chairmen of Buckinghamshire supplied me with certain figures of their sittings. They have four quarter sessions a year, as of course they are bound to have; and they have four adjourned sessions in the year. That makes eight meetings of the court of quarter sessions. Then they have no fewer than twelve meetings of the appeal committee. That shows the amount of work which the appeal committee and the county have to do. As this gentleman points out, if the appeal committee is to be done away with, quarter sessions will have to sit a great deal longer and on many more occasions than they do at present, and this will not be at all palatable to what I may call the rank and file of justices who have to come and make up the court.
The appeal committees are appointed by quarter sessions (and no one need serve on them unless he wishes to), who take care to see that they are getting the best and most experienced magistrates of the county. One reason why in 1933 it was felt that it would be a good thing to have an appeal committee was to get the most experienced magistrates; and also because experience showed that in certain parts of the country when there was an appeal a large number of magistrates would suddenly arrive, who were quite unknown to the rest, because they never attended to their duties other than to come down and listen to an appeal of one of their friends to see that the conviction was quashed. That is no longer
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possible, because quarter sessions now sit by a rota, and I think I am right in saying that not more than nine magistrates can sit on the hearing of a case. It would be quite possible with the rota system, especially as at quarter sessions, in a great many places at any rate, the younger magistrates are encouraged to attend and get experience and knowledge of how it works, to find that appeals will be coming before no doubt a qualified chairman, but he may have with him eight quite—I will not say unqualified magistrates, but magistrates who have little or no experience.
I suggest that the points that have been put forward by the Streatfeild Committee could easily be dealt with by some short legislative provision. They say, for instance, that
"where the appeal committee sits between sittings of quarter sessions, it has to reconstitute itself as a court of quarter sessions before a person convicted at quarter sessions who has been remanded for inquiries before sentence can be dealt with; this untidy and cumbersome procedure is also adopted where an Appeal Committee has dealt with an offender committed for sentence after summary conviction of an offence committed during a period of probation —"
Then they say that an appeal committee cannot deal with him for the offence for which he has been put on probation. But the appeal committee can, nevertheless, take into account the fact that the offence has been committed while he is on probation. That is dealing with prisoners who are remanded for sentence.
I should have stated that the appeal committee deal not only with appeals but also with those persons whom petty sessions have sent forward to quarter sessions because they do not think the sentence they can give is sufficient. Therefore, the people are sent to quarter sessions in custody for sentence. Those are the people that the Streatfeild Committee are thinking about in this matter, and though the appeal committee may not have power themselves to sentence for the breach of probation, they can take into account that the man has committed a breach and has been convicted of committing an offence while on probation. If they give him a proper sentence, there will be no necessity to give him a second and separate sentence for the breach of probation.
The other matter they mention is that a person convicted at quarter sessions

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who has been remanded for inquiries cannot be dealt with by the appeal committee. I should think it could very easily be arranged by a short amending clause that it could be dealt with by the appeal committee. As I say, I think it would be a retrograde step if this very useful cornmittee, which has been in existence now for thirty years, disappeared from quarter sessions when it has done its work so well and has ensured that the élite of the magistracy should deal with important matters, as these appeals are. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 31, leave out subsections (5) and (6).—(Lord Goddard.)
LORD RAGLAN: I should like to support the Amendment moved by my noble and learned friend. The difficulty there is in getting magistrates to sit in quarter sessions is not generally realised. As the noble and learned Lord has said, nowadays they are appointed by rota. What happens is that on the first day of quarter sessions they are all there; on the second day about half of them are there, and as the week, and sometimes the fortnight, draws on, it becomes extremely difficult to get any magistrate to sit. It has become almost a whole-time job. Therefore, towards the end of the fortnight there is the chairman sitting with, perhaps, a couple of ladies of leisure, who have no great knowledge or experience of judicial matters, and nobody else. I do not say that any great harm is done by this, but it is desirable that these cases should be heard not entirely by the chairman as, in practice, so many cases are to-day, but by a full bench of experienced magistrates. That is what happens now, and that is not what will happen if this clause is carried as it is at present.
5.15 p.m.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I am grateful to my noble and learned friend Lord Goddard, and to my noble friend Lord Raglan, for the attention they have given to this point. As my noble and learned friend has said, the first subsection which he would leave out carries out a recommendation of the Streatfeild Committee in paragraphs 197 to 201 of their Report. I think Lord Goddard
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agrees that there were two purposes in setting up an appeal committee in 1933. The first was to ensure that appeals from magistrates' courts should be heard only by experienced justices, the justices having special qualifications for the hearing of appeals, including justices specially qualified for dealing with juvenile cases—and I will return to that again—land, secondly, to limit the number of justices eligible to hear appeals.
The Streatfeild Committee took the view that that was no longer necessary for, as I understand it, these reasons. I think what influenced them was looking at the matter rather the other way round from my noble and learned friend. They said that the dichotomy between the two is inconvenient, because frequently when the sessions is sitting it would be convenient for it to take a committal for sentence at the end of its other business, but it finds itself unable to do so unless it happens to be composed of members of the appeal committee. Similarly, vice versa, if an appeal committee sits between sittings of quarter sessions, it has to reconstitute itself as a court of quarter sessions before a person convicted there and remanded for inquiries before sentence can be dealt with.
One of the main purposes of this Bill is to get rid of what the Streatfeild Committee described—and I agree with them—as the indefensible delays that have taken place up to date in a certain percentage of cases. We thought that what they suggested in the interests of greater flexibility—the merger of quarter sessions and its appeal committee—will ensure that whatever justices are sitting on that day they will be in a position to take any quarter sessions work which is ready for them. On the other point of the experienced justices, I do not like trusting my memory without checking the point, but I should have thought—and my noble and learned friend will tell me if I am wrong—that in 1933 there were certainly far fewer legally qualified chairmen of quarter sessions than there are to-day.
LORD GODDARD: I think that is so.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I think that must be so. We felt that when

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to-day there are legally qualified chairmen, and legally qualified deputy chairmen, one of them will certainly be available to preside over a court during an appeal and, therefore, he gives a central element of experience. With regard to the other magistrates, these must vary, but my noble and learned friend Lord Goddard and myself have certainly done our utmost to improve the training of magistrates. I am most grateful to my noble and learned friend for the share he has taken in that, and I think we are getting to-day a greater percentage of experienced and keen magistrates. Of course, in the case of committals for sentence, they may not require the presence of a legally qualified justice at all.
On the other point, my noble and learned friend really conceded that since the rule has been introduced—one of the rules made by the Lord Chancellor under the Act of 1949, which laid down that the maximum number of justices sitting in a court of quarter sessions is nine—the second object of the original section has really gone. I do not know that I would have put it quite so harshly as my noble and learned friend, but I am sure he will agree that, from the point of view of difficulty when one had to address perhaps thirty justices on an appeal quarter sessions, it was rather difficult to know, not whether one was carrying the whole audience with one, but at least ensuring that the whole audience understood one's point. But considered the other point, whether quarter sessions when hearing appeals must be presided over by a legally qualified person. I think that that will be so in practically every case and I did not think it was necessary to make the requirement mandatory.
I want to say a word about the other subsection which my noble and learned friend wants to leave out by this Amendment. Subsection (6) provides that at the hearing of appeals from juvenile courts by county quarter sessions, not less than half the members of the court must, where practicable, be justices qualified to sit as members of a juvenile court. This carries out, in part, a recommendation of the Committee on Children and Young Persons, the Ingleby Committee, whose Report was issued in October, and this recommenda-
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tion was endorsed by the Streatfeild Committee in paragraph 201 of their Report. Section 8 of the Summary Jurisdiction Appeals Act, 1933, as amended by Section 18 of the Criminal Justices Administration Act, 1956, provides that appeals to London Sessions from juvenile courts should be heard by a court consisting of the paid chairman or deputy chairman and justices of whom half are drawn from a panel of juvenile court justices nominated from among the justices themselves. The Streatfeild Committee recommended that similar arrangements to those at London Sessions should, so far as is practicable, be extended to county quarter sessions outside London. The fact that we want half the justices hearing an appeal from the juvenile court to be justices who are in the position of juvenile court justices is, I think, an extremely important point. I would not alter it.
LORD RAGLAN: I should like to protest against this extraordinary notion that a person of 64 is more sympathetic to children than is a person of 66. I think it is quite ridiculous.
LORD CHORLEY: May I just say that in the courts of quarter sessions with not so much business the present arrangement leads to a good deal of waste of time? I held an adjourned session of my own quarter sessions last week and there was also a case for the appeal committee, which meant that two groups of magistrates had to be summoned. I think some had to come from the northern part of the county, which entails a journey not always easy to make in the winter, but fortunately the weather was good. Undoubtedly from our point of view it would lead to a good deal of saving of time if the noble and learned Lord's proposals were put into effect.
VISCOUNT BRIDGEMAN: I would venture to agree with respect, with what the noble Lord, Lord Chorley, has just said.
LORD GODDARD: May I say that, so far as the juvenile question is concerned, perhaps there was no necessity for me to move to leave out subsection (6), but, as it dealt with appeals, I thought that if one went the other would go. If the noble and learned Viscount wished to save subsection (5) from going

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it could have been dealt with on Report: the question of the juvenile court could have been put right on Report. I have no objection, of course, if some of the magistrates dealing with juveniles should be magistrates who can sit in juvenile courts. I think that is quite a reasonable thing. I cannot help thinking, although the noble Lord, Lord Chorley, has given an illustration from his county, that in most counties when an appeal committee sit they can sit at just about the same time as a full court is sitting or at a convenient time in between its sittings. As I have said, in the County of Buckinghamshire there are twelve sittings a year of these appeal committees.
I do not think that any time need really be wasted or that persons need be kept any longer in prison than they are at the present time. I think there is something to be said, if I may say so, for an abolition of the law under which the persons who are sent forward to quarter sessions for sentence have to go to the appeal committee. It might be better that those cases should go to the full court. The thing I am more concerned about is that I think it is important that appeals should go to an appeal committee of experienced magistrates. Of course, I know quite well that quarter sessions are now presided over by qualified chairmen and, generally, qualified deputy chairmen; but, at the same time, when they are sitting with eight other magistrates their vote is only as good as the other magistrates' and they are sometimes overruled by the others. If the Lord Chancellor takes the view that nothing can be done, I do not suppose there is any hope for this Amendment, but I feel very strongly that it is an unfortunate step to abolish a committee which so far, I believe, has done very useful work and has given general satisfaction.
On Question, Amendment negatived.
Clause 4 agreed to.
Clause 5 agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: This Amendment transfers from the Home Secretary to the Lord Chancellor the responsibility under Section 42 of the Local Government Act, 1888, for regulating the arrangements for sittings of quarter sessions for the County of Lon-
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don. The transfer is desirable because, under subsection (1) of Clause 4 the Lord Chancellor will have a general power to regulate the sittings of quarter sessions for the rest of the country, and under subsection (3) will have to make rules dealing with certain administrative arrangements for quarter sessions. It would be anomalous to leave the Home Secretary with separate responsibility for London only. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 5, insert the following new clause—
London sessions
".The functions conferred on the Secretary of State by subsection (6) and (7) of section forty-two of the Local Government Act, 1888 (which relate to the regulation of quarter sessions for the county of London) shall after the commencement of this Act be exercisable by the Lord Chancellor; and the references in those subsections to a Secretary of State shall he construed accordingly."—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 6 [Appointment of deputy recorder and assistant recorders]:
LORD GODDARD LORD GODDARD moved after subsection (3) to insert:
"() If a borough with a population of sixty-five thousand or more has no separate commission of the peace or no separate court of quarter sessions, the Lord Chancellor may require the council of the borough to present a petition to Her Majesty for the grant of a separate commission of the peace and a separate court of quarter sessions for the said borough or if it already has a separate commission of the peace, for the grant of a separate court of quarter sessions; and sections one hundred and sixty and one hundred and sixty-two of the Municipal Corporations Act, 1882, shall apply to such petitions:
Provided that if at the expiration of three months from such requirement being made no such petition has been presented the Lord Chancellor may himself present one to Her Majesty."
The noble and learned Lord said: The clause that I am asking the Committee to accept as an addition to the Bill is designed to enable the Lord Chancellor, in cases where he thinks it proper to do so, to see that very large boroughs which at present have no recorder and therefore no quarter sessions should apply for and set up their own court of quarter sessions, and, if they do not, he should have the power to take the necessary steps towards it.

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Your Lordships will remember that in 1949, under the Justices of the Peace Act, many commissions of the peace were taken away from small boroughs and also many courts of quarter sessions were taken away from small boroughs; and that was all to the good. But, at the same time, a good many large boroughs in this country have no recorder and therefore the whole of their cases have to go to the county quarter sessions or, if under convenient court procedure, to some other borough. The costs have always to fall upon the county. The noble Lord, Lord Silkin, in the speech he made on Second Reading, pointed out some of the anomalies which take place with regard to costs in criminal cases, and I dare say at some future date a question will be raised as to whether all those costs ought not to fall upon the Exchequer. But at the present time there is no doubt a reluctance on the part of some of these large boroughs to apply, as they can do under the Municipal Corporations Act, for the appointment of a recorder. By the way, there is a small drafting mistake in my Amendment: it should refer to Section 156 instead of 160. Those boroughs fail to petition for the appointment of a recorder because they prefer that they should not have the expense of maintaining a court of quarter sessions, but that it should fall upon the counties.
Let me give the Committee two or three instances of the great centres of population which have no recorders. I take first of all Ilford. Ilford is an enormously big place, and if you included Walthamstow in it—but I think they are separate—I do not know what size it would be. Ilford is returned as having a population of 178,000. When offences are committed there which lead to committal for trial the witnesses have to go to Chelmsford; everything has to be done at Chelmsford. I dare say there are reasons. The County of Essex no doubt gets a large proportion of its rates from Ilford. But surely it is right if citizens in Ilford commit offences that they should be dealt with at Ilford. Close by is the borough of Romford, a very ancient borough, which has never had a recorder, although it has a population at the present time of 113,000. Let me illustrate another place of which I can speak quite confidently, because in
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my younger days and for many years I practised there. I was a member of the Wiltshire quarter sessions and practised in Wiltshire. Swindon started, of course, by being a small country market town. By the time I was practising there it had very largely increased in population because of the presence of the Great Western Railway works. But even in those days—and I think my noble and learned friend Lord Tucker, who also practised there in those days, would bear me out—Swindon always used to produce at least half the work for the Wiltshire quarter sessions. They did not have to pay the costs; the county had to pay the costs. Now Swindon has become one of the overspill towns for London and the population at the present time is 83,000.
Wiltshire quarter sessions are now to be held on two occasions at Salisbury and on two occasions at Devizes. You cannot travel from Swindon to Salisbury by train: it would be a very good exercise for anybody who likes Bradshaw's to see whether he could work it out. But I would say it would take all day and he would never be there in time to be present when the courts opened. Wiltshire is an awkward county in which to travel because Salisbury Plain divides the north from the south in a remarkable way. All the prisoners and witnesses and people of that sort have to go from Swindon to Salisbury. They must go by road and the distance is about 45 miles. You cannot travel 45 miles for nothing and the expense is considerable. If people are kept there for two days, there again it is a hardship and very expensive. Twice a year cases can be heard at Devizes. Devizes is one of the old county capitals. It has an Assize court, and the Assizes are held alternately at Salisbury and Devizes. Devizes is a good deal nearer to Swindon than Salisbury; it is about 25 miles away—far enough. But Devizes keeps a recorder, has always had a recorder and Devizes is a town with a population of 8,000. If, under the convenient court procedure, as it is called, people are committed to the sessions at Devizes, a small town of 8,000 inhabitants is having to try cases which come from a town of 83,000.
Another curious anomaly is Slough. Most of the crime in the county of Buckinghamshire comes from Slough or

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thereabouts, which has 75,000 inhabitants but no recorder. I am not sure that the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, did not mention Bedford; he certainly mentioned Northampton. In Bedford at the present time there is one recorder. Luton is about double the size of Bedford and has a population of 120,000 but no recorder. If the Lord Chancellor had power to stir up these people and say, "You must apply for a recorder, or else if you do not I will apply for you", it would mean that several more courts would be set up and it would enormously increase the speed with which cases could be heard. Because nowadays the courts of quarter sessions are directed to arrange among themselves so that there will be at intervals, but not long intervals, different courts sitting; so if you find that a long interval will take place before the county sessions, you look about and find when a borough sessions will be sitting. The more boroughs, therefore, that have recorders the better, although you do not want these very small towns to have quarter sessions, because it is not desirable. The jurors would be taken from a very small body. I would ask the noble and learned Viscount in charge of this Bill to consider whether something should not be done in this respect.
The Municipal Corporations Act provides that Her Majesty may, on the petition of a local council, grant either a separate commission of the peace or a court of quarter sessions, or if they already have a separate commission of the peace under another section they may apply for the grant of quarter sessions. I have given only one or two illustrations from the south of England because I know it better than the north. There must be a good many other towns in the same position. But those towns which have these very big populations ought to try their own cases; they ought to be tried by jurors from that particular area, and jurors in other places ought not to have the task of trying cases from towns with which they have no concern. The expenses ought to be expenses of the boroughs and not of the counties. But what I do emphasise is that I am sure that if these big boroughs could be told, "You must have your own recorders and deal with your own crime", it would speed up the trial of crime as much as
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anything else could do; and therefore I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 4, line 18, at end insert the said new subsection.—(Lord Goddard.)
LORD SILKIN: I should like most strongly to support the noble and learned Lord, Lord Goddard, in this Amendment. If the object of this Bill is, as I accept that it is, to speed up the administration of justice and particularly to speed up the period from the time of committal to the time of trial, then it is essential—at any rate, it is advantageous—that there should be more places where trials can be heard. At the present time large centres of population are being created. The noble and learned Viscount will be aware that in England and Wales, for instance, there are fifteen new towns already, and a certain number of expanded towns which are about to develop. That, I imagine, is not the end of the story; there will be further new towns. So far none of those has a commission at all.
The noble and learned Lord, Lord Goddard, has given a number of examples. One might say that Ilford and Romford are part of the Metropolis and almost suburban. But if you go further out into Essex, in which Ilford and Romford are, you have the new town of Basildon, which already has a population of over 60,000 and which is designed eventually to have a population of 120,000. There is no obligation on their part at all to set up a separate commission. I do not know whether they will or not. But this Amendment is based on the assumption that they do not regard it as necessary and that they will take no action. There is the town of Harlow which, I imagine, has a population, at this point, of nearly 60,000, and is growing. In Sussex, you have Crawley, where the same thing applies. Crawley is rapidly approaching the 60,000 mark. I think it is designed for an ultimate population of 80,000. If there is any known means of limiting the population to any particular figure I should like to know about it. But one can be quite certain that before long all the towns I have mentioned will be towns with a population of the order of over 100,000, with no commission. The same applies to Cwmbran in South Wales. So I think that we should take

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this most essential step to ensure that the number of commissions is appropriate.
It is, of course, discretionary on the Lord Chancellor as Ito whether, in any particular case, it is essential that he should take action, and again, it depends upon action not being taken by the local authority or the borough itself. But in the case of a borough that is not prepared to take the necessary steps, where the Lord Chancellor is of the opinion that it is desirable that it should set up a commission, then it seems to me that there ought to be power to secure that such a commission is set up. Therefore, unless the noble and learned Viscount sees any insuperable objection to this Amendment, I hope that it will be accepted, at least in spirit, and that something will be done about it.
LORD GODDARD: Before my noble and learned friend replies, may I just say that the reason why I propose in my suggested Amendment that this should apply to a borough with a population of 65,000 is that the Justice of the Peace Act provides that only a borough of 65,000 can have a new grant of a quarter sessions. That is why I take the figure of 65.000.
LORD RAGLAN: In my county borough of Newport, which has a population of 110,000 and so comes within the ambit of this Amendment, we have a commission of the peace but no quarter sessions. This causes no great inconvenience, as the quarter sessions are held in Newport and the borough of Newport pays for the court, although not for the chairman and deputy-chairman.
There is one matter to which I should like to draw the attention of the noble and learned Viscount—namely, that the magistrates of the borough take no part in the work of quarter sessions, but both they and the county magistrates think that they should take their share of that. I do not know whether something of that kind could appropriately be dealt with in this Bill. I think it is a matter to which the noble and learned Viscount might give consideration, to the satisfaction of all who are interested.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: To deal with the slightly different point of my
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noble friend Lord Raglan, I will certainly look into that point. Curiously enough, I was addressing a meeting of magistrates on Monday afternoon and the same point was put to me then; so it is in my mind, and now that it is reinforced by my noble friend I will certainly look into it. I should like to look into the whole of this Amendment. I hope that your Lordships will not think I am remiss in my reply, but the Amendment was put down only a short time ago. T6 noble Lord, Lord Silkin, will appreciate that it would be a novel proposition for a member of the Executive, even if he be the Lord Chancellor, to require a local authority to petition for a separate court of quarter sessions against their will—
LORD SILKIN: Yes.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: —and to do it for them if they refused. Therefore, as a matter of the comity of government, which we try to pursue between national and local government, I hope that my noble and learned friend will give me time to consult—
LORD GODDARD: I should be only too glad, if the noble and learned Viscount will consider it before Report stage, not to press the Amendment now.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: That was what I was going to suggest to my noble and learned friend. I should like to do that.
LORD GODDARD: I agree that it is a considerable matter, and if the Government will consider it between now and Report, of course I will not press the Amendment.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I am most grateful. I think everyone will appreciate that, because it is the sort of thing that one must discuss with the Association of Municipal Corporations, out of courtesy and with the hope of getting it done. But I am well seized of the point. I am told that in most cases the boroughs are ready to apply for a court of quarter sessions, if it is indicated to them that they should. In fact, I received a note as my noble and learned friend was speaking, saying that it is believed that Swindon are ready to make a petition, but I shall have to confirm that and see what it is based on.

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With regard to the others, there is some difficulty, I think, in one case. I do not want to mention it in the Committee because there is some difference of opinion as to whether the place in question should become a county borough. Without going into a long discussion, I should like to take up this point with my right honourable friend and, together with him, have the necessary consultations and see what we can do. I should like Lord Goddard to know that on another and important part of the Bill we have asked the boroughs to accept an entirely new scheme of remuneration for the recorders and deputy and assistant recorders. That is a matter in which they and their association have shown themselves co-operative, and I think have enabled us to introduce a useful reform into the Bill. Therefore, I am most anxious that we should not reply to their co-operation with what they may think was rather rough treatment, without having consulted them. So I will have that consultation.
I am told that a borough without a quarter sessions does not escape paying for the administration of justice, because it will have to contribute to the costs of county quarter sessions. But that is only an amelioration of the position which my noble and learned friend has put; that really depends on having another court in which to deal with cases quickly. I am alive to that, and I will do that. I will write to the noble and learned Lord before the Report stage to let him know what progress I have made.
LORD SILKIN: Before the noble and learned Viscount sits down, might I ask him whether or not it is the case that, if a borough decides to set up a court, it would have to pay for it itself; it would not be a charge on the county?
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: No, it would pay for it out of its own rates, as I understand the position.
LORD GODDARD: Then I withdraw the Amendment.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: If my noble friend will withdraw it on my undertaking to consider it before Report, and to let him know before the
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Report stage what we intend to do, he can put it down again if necessary.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 6 agreed to.
Clauses 7 to 11 agreed to.
Clause 12 [Committal to a more convenient court]:
5.51 p.m.
LORD SILKIN LORD SILKIN moved after subsection (3) to insert:
"(4) Where a magistrates' court has committed a person to assizes or quarter sessions it shall be the duty of the clerk to the magistrates' court to notify as soon as may be after such committal the appropriate probation officer of such assizes or quarter sessions as the case may be and at the same time to give to the probation officer such particulars as may be available as to the person, the offence and any other relevant information in his possession."
The noble Lord said: I beg to move the Amendment standing in my name. I think I can put this point very briefly. The object of this Bill, as we are always saying, is to reduce the period of time between committal and the date of the trial. In a number of cases after conviction sentence is postponed in order that inquiries, which we all agree are very desirable, may take place, because in these days the punishment is not merely related to the offence itself, but is also related to many other considerations which ought to be in the possession of the person imposing the sentences. It is therefore of the utmost importance that these inquiries should take place at the earliest possible time. The Streatfeild Committee, in the second part of their Report, recommended that the appropriate probation officer should be informed of the committal as soon as the committal had taken place, and that he should then have the fullest possible time available to make such inquiries as he thought the court would desire, in order that they might be placed fully in possession of the relevant facts.
This Amendment is designed for that purpose. It places upon the clerk of the court before whom the person is committed an obligation to notify the relevant probation officer as soon as he possibly can after committal, so that the probation officer will have time to make inquiries. It follows, so far as I could

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draft it, the recommendation in paragraph 371 of the Streatfeild Report, which says that:
"In order that our proposals for pre-trial inquiries may work smoothly, it is essential that the probation service should have prompt notice of all committals for trial or sentence. In our view the clerk to the justices should be responsible for seeing that the liaison probation officer at the superior court is notified".
Those are the terms of the Amendment. This is merely an implementation of paragraph 371. It is put in the Amendment in a mandatory form. It is a requirement that the clerk to the magistrates should do this in all cases, and I hope and believe that it is not too burdensome an obligation to put on him. Indeed, it is his duty to do it, and, if he does not do it, then I should have thought he was being remiss in his duties.
The noble and learned Viscount may say that it can be done in other ways apart from making it statutory. He may say to me that there will be a direction of some sort given that it will be done administratively and not at the discretion of the court, but will be a definite obligation on the part of the clerk to notify the probation officer. I am not very particular as to whether it is done in the form of a clause in the Bill or whether there is a definite obligation imposed upon the clerk by some other means. The essential thing is that there should be this definite obligation on the part of the clerk of the court. For those reasons I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 6, line 31, at end insert the said new subsection.—(Lord Salim)
LORD RAGLAN: I hope that the noble and learned Viscount will not accept this Amendment. All those of us who have had anything to do with the probation service know that it is very difficult to get properly qualified persons to serve as probation officers, and that in many counties the probation service is very short, the lists of probation officers are much overloaded, and they have in general great difficulty in getting through their work. It is, of course, the fact that at Assizes and at quarter sessions people are sometimes put on probation, but the proportion of persons so put on probation is very small. I am afraid that, if this Amendment were carried, probation officers would have to spend a great part of their time investigating the
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antecedents of murderers, safe blowers, professional burglars and people like that, instead of doing what in my judgment is their proper work and dealing with the persons who are committed to their charge and whom it is their duty to look after and if possible to reform.
LORD CHORLEY: I suggest that the answer to the noble Lord who has just resumed his seat is that the probation service should be improved. Indeed, it is essential that it shall be improved if the recommendations of the Streatfeild Committee are to be carried through, and I thought we all agreed that they were most valuable. I mentioned the adjourned sessions held last week. In one or two of the cases which we had for sentence, a report from a probation officer on those men would have been of the greatest value to the magistrates in coming to a decision as to what punishment to award. All that we had was a bald report from the Prison Commission saying that a particular man was not regarded as suitable for a particular type of punishment, or something of that kind. That is no doubt useful up to a point, but it is not the sort of constructive report that a probation officer can make. I feel that this is a most important aspect of the Report of the Streatfeild Committee and that the Home Secretary—even if there is a financial pause going on—must make arrangements to have the probation system put into a state in which it can carry through a social duty of this kind, which is of the greatest importance in the present state of penal discipline.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: On the question which this has thrown up, about the general position of probation officers, I should like to assure both my noble friend Lord Raglan and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Chorley, that this is a subject which we have very much in mind. They will remember that when we were dealing with the Criminal Justice Bill we had another potential mass of work on after-care, and I am certainly very conscious of the burden placed on probation officers at the moment, as well as the need for increasing the service. I think anyone who is interested in penal treatment must take the same view. Therefore, I do not take exception to the object which this Amendment seeks to secure.

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If I may say so, I think there might be some difficulties as to the way it is framed, because it is put into the clause on convenient courts, and I think the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, would want it to apply to all courts. The noble Lord has also used the phrase "appropriate probation officer" which seems to be a very good one, although I think that the man in question is, in fact, known administratively as the probation liaison officer. But those are minor points. The point is that, while I invited the noble Lord to put down anything that he thought could be dealt with by legislation—and, speaking quite frankly, I must concede that this is a point which is not subject to the general difficulty I raised: that I did not want statutory provisions that might limit flexibility—and while sympathising with the object, it remains our view that it is unnecessary to include provisions on these essentially administrative matters.
I can tell the noble Lord, as he has asked me to, that the Government already have it in mind to cover this particular point by administrative arrangements; but I should like to go further than that. because I do not want your Lordships to think that I am stalling for the sake of stalling. What I should like to consider before the Report stage—and I will write to the noble Lord about it—is whether (as I rather think at the moment, though I should like to go into it again) the proper way to do this would be by making a magistrates' court rule under Section 15 of the Justices of the Peace Act. That, of course, would provide the statutory, obligation. I will consider it with great pleasure, and I will let the noble Lord know before the Report stage.
LORD SILKIN: I am much obliged for that reply, and in the circumstances I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 12 agreed to.
Clause 13 [Adjournment after conviction and resumption by different or differently composed court]:
6.2 p.m.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved in subsection (2) to leave out all words after "preceding subsection". The noble and learned Viscount said: With the leave of the Committee, I will discuss Amend-
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ments Nos. 6 and 7 together, though, of course, the Lord Chairman will put them as he thinks fit. The effect of these two Amendments is to remove the second part of subsection (2) of Clause 13 into a separate subsection, following subsection (3). As a result, it will apply to the two situations dealt with in subsections (1) and (3) instead of, as at present, only to the first of those situations. I am perfectly prepared to explain it at length if your Lordships desire, but I think that that shows quite clearly what we are doing. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 6, line 45, leave out from beginning to end of line 5 on page 7.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 7, line 12, at end insert—
("() A court of quarter sessions may resume a case in pursuance of the foregoing provisions of this section nothwithstanding that the offence under consideration is one which is triable by such a court only under section two of the Administration of Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act, 1938 (which relates to courts with legally qualified chairmen) and that the court is not then presided over as mentioned in that section.")—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 13, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 14 agreed to.
LORD CHORLEY LORD CHORLEY moved, after Clause 14 to insert the following new clause:
Unfitness to plead
".—(1) Where it appears to the court that a person charged on an indictment for any criminal offence is suffering from some mental disorder or other affliction so as to be unable to plead to the indictment or otherwise unfit to stand trial, the court may, on application made in accordance with the following provisions of this section, direct that the issue of such person's ability to plead or his fitness to stand trial shall he determined by the jury either at the conclusion of the case for the prosecution, or at the conclusion of the evidence upon the trial of such person for the offence with which he is charged.
(2) An application for a direction under the last foregoing subsection may be made by the person charged, or his legal representative, if there is evidence tending to show that such person is not guilty of the offence charged in the indictment.
(3) An application under subsection (2) of this section shall be supported by the sworn affidavit of any witness who is to be called by the defence.
(4) In the absence of an application for a direction under this section, or if the court

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thinks that there is no reasonable ground for making such direction, the issue of a person's ability to plead or his fitness to stand trial shall be determined by a jury impanelled for that purpose before evidence is given in respect of the offence charged in the indictment:
Provided that nothing in this section shall prejudice the powers of the judge to exercise any discretion vested in him by any other enactment or rule or law with regard to the stage at which such issue shall be determined."
The noble Lord said: This is the first of a group of Amendments all of which are concerned with the procedure in criminal courts in cases where insanity is involved. I am sorry that it will not be possible for me to explain them in a very few words. I must ask your Lordships' forbearance for a few minutes. Of course, they lie a little apart from the main purpose of this Bill, and I shall not be altogether surprised if the noble and learned Viscount, the Lord Chancellor, objects to them on that particular ground. I had hoped to say something about them on Second Reading, because this is a little area of the criminal law which I think stands very much in need of some spring cleaning; but as those of your Lordships who were here will remember, the list of speakers collapsed and the noble and learned Viscount was already replying to the discussion as I entered the House from an earlier engagement which detained me. As I was deprived of the advantage of getting the noble and learned Viscount's opinion on this quite important subject, the best plan seemed to be to put down Amendments on the points which are involved, which I proceeded to do. So perhaps we can get the position made clear, or at any rate discussed.
These Amendments really fall into groups, of which the first consisting of three clauses is designed to tidy up and, indeed, to clarify the procedure to be followed when, as does happen not infrequently, the issue of an accused person's fitness to plead or fitness to stand his trial is raised, and to give him a right of appeal against an order detaining him without any trial of the actual issue as to whether he did, in fact, commit the offence which is charged against him. As your Lordships are aware, the main controversy among lawyers on insanity in connection with criminal offences has been waged chiefly round the famous McNaghten rules,
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which are concerned, of course, with the issue of responsibility for the criminal conduct itself. The question as to whether at the time of the trial a particular prisoner who is suffering from a mental disease is fit to be tried or not fit to be tried is, of course, quite a different one. There is a well recognised procedure for dealing with a situation of this kind, but it is perhaps not as certain as is desirable on a point in the criminal law which is of some importance. Also there is a great deal of controversy going on as to whether what might be called the accepted procedure is altogether a fair one.
The point, quite shortly, is this: if it is decided at the opening of proceedings on a criminal trial that the man is, in fact, not fit to be tried, then the issue of whether he actually committed the act for which he is indicted will never be tried at all—or at any rate will not be tried on that particular occasion; there is a possibility that it might be tried later if he recovers. But the prisoner's advisers may feel—and indeed prisoners' advisers have felt from time to time—that the prosecution's case is, on the facts, not as strong as it might be and that it ought to be contested. The question of fitness for trial is usually raised, however, by the prosecution itself. Indeed, it is considered by some people that it is the duty of the prosecution in a proper case to do so. And they will naturally do it at the opening of the trial—that is the usual procedure which is followed. By doing so, of course, they may effectively deprive the prisoner of a finding that he never did the act which is alleged against him in the indictment. Therefore it is considered by some of us that the advisers ought to have the opportunity to require that the issue of his fitness to plead should be postponed until the end of the prosecution's case, by which time it may have been possible for the learned counsel defending the prisoner to have so shaken the prosecution's case that he may perhaps persuade the judge that there is no case to answer.
It is true that this happened in one case—and I am sorry that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Devlin, who knows so much more about these matters than I do, has left the Chamber, because I hoped for his assistance, particularly as he was himself, I think, the judge who

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ruled that it might be possible, at any rate in some cases, that this matter could be kept until the end of the prosecution's case. It is only fair to say, however, that the weight of authority is against that view, and it seems rather difficult, in the light of Section 2 of the Criminal Lunatics Act, 1800, to say that that is, at any rate, normally a possible line of procedure.
I do not wish to trouble your Lordships with the technicalities of this problem and with the various cases which are in point. I have handed a list of the more important ones to the noble and learned Viscount, and I hope he will feel that there is an important case here to be dealt with. Obviously, the disadvantages of the procedure which is usually followed at the present time are numerous. As I said a minute ago, the accused man might be tried at a later stage if he regains his sanity. This may not happen often, but it is a possibility, as was pointed out by the Royal Corn-mission on Capital Punishment. If he is tried later, it may be very difficult, or indeed impossible, for him to obtain the witnesses who would have been available on the earlier occasion. The prosecution would have the advantage of having the depositions, and advantages in other ways.
Again, the law might sanction the detention of an innocent man if he is mentally ill. The feeling of having been found guilty without having actually been tried on the particular issue involved might, I am sure your Lordships will agree, be a very serious obstacle to his making a recovery. A man of this kind is not normally so much out of his mind that he is not very acutely conscious of matters of this nature. Again, there are dangers from the point of view of the public themselves. The police might drop their inquiries, after the man was ordered to be detained because of his insanity, on the assumption that he had actually committed the crime, while in fact it had been committed by somebody else, and if the investigations had gone on that fact would have been discovered. Also, as the law stands at the present time, there is no appeal from the finding that the accused is unfit to plead or to stand his trial; and in the normal case, at any rate, a writ of habeas corpus will not be available. So there are a number of
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obvious disadvantages in the accepted procedure, and therefore we feel it is important that this occasion should be taken to put them right.
The later subsections to Clause 1 are really just concerned with the practical methods by which this matter can be carried out, and also, up to a point, with putting the existing, rather vague Common Law into a clearer state and making it statutory, so that there will not be these difficulties in future. Before actually moving this Amendment, I think I ought to express my thanks to colleagues in the Law Department of the University of London, who are very interested in these problems, who have brought this matter to my attention, and who have helped me with the drafting of the Amendments. My Lords, I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 14, insert the said new clause.—(Lard Charley.)
6.14 p.m.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I think it would be convenient if I covered in my speech the general field of the noble and learned Lord's Amendments. I think he may get some satisfaction out of that, and, of course, he can speak again as often as he desires. On the question of unfitness to plead, I think the suggestions raise a very difficult point which warrants careful consideration. May I say at once to the noble and learned Lord how grateful I am for the notes which, of course, have saved a great deal of trouble in finding the authorities and express the intent with which the Amendment is moved.
I think the gist of the difficulty is that one is trying, on the one hand, to harmonise the concept of trying a person who may not be in a position to understand what is going on; on the other hand, the other difficulty, as the noble and learned Lord has emphasised, is that that person who is held, by a verdict of a jury, not to understand what is going on, who has been committed for trial and then ordered to be confined under the procedure, remains without his name being cleared. That is really the trouble we are in, and I find it a most difficult problem to solve.
If I might take it, not in any niggling spirit—I think the noble and learned

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Lord, Lord Chorley, knows me well enough by now to know that I do not approach Amendments on serious points of law in a niggling spirit, trying to make debating points—just to illustrate the difficulty, I would point out that subsection (1) of the noble Lord's first Amendment contemplates that the issue of fitness to plead may be determined by the jury either at the conclusion of the case for the prosecution or at the conclusion of the evidence. It is not clear whether it contemplates the giving of a verdict on the issue of guilt or innocence. I really do not see—and I hope that, if I have not appreciated the whole position, the noble and learned Lord will tell me—how you could possibly take a verdict on the issue of guilt or innocence, and then have a subsequent verdict that the man was not fit to plead, and therefore had been convicted in the absence of his appreciating what was going on. However, I realise what the noble Lord, Lord Chorley, had in mind.
The attraction is this. Unfitness to plead does not often arise in a commercial fraud case, but that is the simplest for my illustration. Take a case of alleged commercial fraud, where the prosecution have failed to close a gap in the evidence. We have all been in that position, and have eventually made submissions and the case has broken down. Another case contemplated by the noble Lord is this. He says that under his procedure it would be possible to put in an affidavit and ask the judge to postpone the taking of the verdict on fitness to plead till afterwards. One case the noble and learned Lord had in mind was where there was a witness to an alibi, and it would be possible to say, "I have a witness to an alibi, and I am submitting that if the jury hear evidence now on the alibi, they will not convict." But the trouble, as we all know from bitter experience, is that alibis, extremely good on paper, break down really like papier mâché in court. We have all had that experience. Therefore, if we leave guilt or innocence to the jury, it might reach a verdict of guilty and then deal with whether the accused is fit to plead shortly afterwards. I do not see how we could have that.
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We really must do some more thinking on this. I am not tying the noble and learned Lord to the requirement of having an affidavit on this, but we have to consider the procedure again. The noble and learned Lord may well put to me that some amendment of the law is necessary to resolve doubt—because the noble and learned Lord has one case on this side and there are two cases on the other; there is the authority of my noble and learned friend Lord Devlin the other way, and therefore the balance of the authority is in favour of the old procedure—and to prevent an innocent person from being dealt with on merely a prima facie case. On the other hand, no conviction is recorded. The order is that a person should be detained until Her Majesty's pleasure be known, under Section 71 of the Act. It is true that, if he recovers, he can be brought to trial; and there are cases where this has been done, though it is not frequent.
Although one can sympathise with the object of the proposer of the new clause, he does not appear to have succeeded in reconciling the inevitable conflict between his desire to retain the protection conferred on those so affected by the provision that an accused person who is unfit to plead should not be tried, and his second desire to ensure that a criminal charge should be pronounced upon by a court and finally disposed of. I am not saying that it is not possible to reconcile these things, but I am saying that it should receive further study. I should like to assure the noble and learned Lord that this will be considered by the Home Secretary, and I shall be very happy to help if my assistance is asked for.
The second Amendment gives the court power to make an order under Section 71 of the Mental Health Act if, under the proposals in the preceding section, the jury have found that the accused is unfit to plead or to stand trial. The proviso to this clause limits the power of the court to make such an order where the accused
"is not found guilty of the offence charged".
Again I have some difficulty about the significance of this phrase. It is not quite clear, although it presumably contemplates a situation falling short of a verdict of not guilty. As I say, it is hard to contemplate a person being

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found both guilty and unfit to plead. If the intention of the clause—and we should have to look at the drafting—is that a person found unfit to plead may not be ordered to be detained during Her Majesty's pleasure unless he is expressly found guilty or the conditions in the proviso are satisfied—that is, that the court is satisfied that to make such an order is in the interests of the accused person's health or safety or is necessary for the protection of other persons—this would be a restriction on the existing powers of the court that would need very careful examination. Again I say that it will be examined.
The third new clause, Amendment No. 10, deals with rights of appeal to the Court of Criminal Appeal. It has to be considered in conjunction with the last clause of the noble and learned Lord's series, Amendment No. 13, which I will come to in a moment. The consequences of the new clauses taken together must be carefully scrutinised. The effect of these combined clauses seems to be that where a person appeals against a finding of unfitness to plead, the Court of Criminal Appeal may substitute its opinion for that of the jury or order a retrial, as it thinks fit. The question of power to order a retrial and of the circumstances in which such a power is desirable is one on which opinions are deeply divided.
When I was in the House of Commons I made a strong speech against the Court of Criminal Appeal's having the right of a retrial. The burden of my song then was that if the prosecution could not prove its case the first time, it ought not to have two bites of the cherry, and of the Court of Criminal Appeal found that there was something wrong with the conduct of a case by the prosecution, then the man ought to get off. It was a lesser danger that a guilty person should get off than to have an oppressive system. To show the difficulty, my noble and learned friend Lord Tucker was chairman of a committee which considered this and he took the other view. I only remind the noble and learned Lord of this to show that this issue of retrial is a very difficult one. Even were the question of unfitness and the issue of guilt or innocence considered together at the trial, the accused might be placed
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in danger for the second time on the issue of guilt or innocence.
The first three clauses raise a very difficult question, on which, as I have indicated, there has been a conflict of judicial opinion. I have said more than once that the problem requires careful consideration, and it might be that the best course would be to refer it to the Criminal Law Revision Committee, over which presides the right honourable and learned gentleman Lord Justice Sellers; but I cannot give an undertaking on that, because I should like to give it more consideration before I make any announcement. But that is the way my consideration is moving. It is a difficult point and I should like to discuss further with my right honourable friend the Home Secretary whether it would be a matter which should be referred.
On the second group of clauses, fortunately I am able to go further than that. For some time there has been a strong body of opinion taking the view that the power of appeal is desirable in certain cases where there has been a verdict of guilty but insane. I am not going to go through the cases, but the noble and learned Lord can take it that I have them in mind. The question of the circumstances in which the appeal should lie, if the need be accepted, and of the powers to be conferred on the Court of Criminal Appeal in dealing with such an appeal is not free from difficulty and, after consultation with my noble and learned friend the Lord Chief Justice, my right honourable friend the Home Secretary has decided to refer this matter to the Criminal Law Revision Committee under Lord Justice Sellers.
The new clause dealing with the powers of the Court of Criminal Appeal (that is the noble Lord's Amendment No. 13) is consequential upon the provisions in earlier clauses conferring rights of appeal where none exist at present. The clause confers on the court the power to order a new trial which raises the issues I have mentioned. It also, in subsection (2), has a novel provision about seeking expert opinion. Clearly, any questions on the power of the Court of Criminal Appeal when dealing with an appeal in the circumstances envisaged ought to be considered in the light of any conclusions reached

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by the Criminal Law Revision Committee on the reference to them I have already mentioned, and it would be premature to express any opinion until the Committee have reached their conclusion.
I hope the noble and learned Lord will be satisfied with that. I think he will agree with me that the questions in his second group are also matters of great importance. I recently had to consider, as he knows, one of the cases he has in mind, because it was in a field with which I was dealing only some months ago. So the noble Lord can take it that I am well seized of the matters he has in mind here. On the question of appeal, my right honourable friend will refer that; and the Home Secretary is also considering reference to the Committee of the question of the power of the prosecution to raise the issue of insanity where there is a defence of diminished responsibility. In view of what I have said about the definite reference on the question of appeal, and the consideration of reference about the power of the prosecution to raise insanity, I hope the noble and learned Lord will not press the Amendments to-day; but I would ask him not to hesitate to communicate with me or with the Home Office to know how the matter is going on.
6.33 p.m.
LORD CHORLEY: I am grateful to the noble and learned Viscount for his sympathetic reply. I agree with him that the position in respect of the first Amendment is a difficult one. It will be in only a rather exceptional case that this sort of matter will arise: usually the commission of the act by the man in the dock is clear enough. But occasionally there is a case of the kind that this Amendment is aimed at when the facts are not clear, and it seems only right that the matter should be tested by the prisoner's counsel. The Lord Chancellor and I are well aware of how that is done. I think it is perfectly possible at the end of the prosecution's evidence to submit that it has been broken down to the extent that it would not be safe for a jury to reach a verdict of guilty; and if the learned judge in charge of the case indicates to the jury that that is his view, in my experience the jury will inevitably feel
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that the case has not been made out. If it does not go that way, then the defence can say: "Now we should like to have the issue as to whether the man is fit to plead tried"; and I should have thought that it could be done. But I appreciate there are difficult problems involved, and obviously it would be a great advantage if the noble and learned Viscount could see his way to refer the matter to Lord Justice Seller's Committee. I appreciate that he cannot give me an undertaking to-day to do so, but if he could by the next stage, I should naturally be gratified, although it may be that that will not be possible either. However, I am prepared to accept the sympathetic way in which the noble and learned Viscount has dealt with the matter, and I ask permission to withdraw the Amendment.
I would say about the other matters that I will accept the Lord Chancellor's advice and not move the Amendments. The second of these clauses was really intended to bring this matter into line with the provisions of the Mental Health Act, 1959, which I am sure we all agree marks a considerable advance in the handling of problems of this kind. There is a strong argument against using the machinery of the criminal courts for the purpose of dealing with mentally disordered persons, and it is much better that they should be dealt with under the Mental Health Act, 1959. The object of the clause was to try to secure that. I appreciate that the wording possibly is not as good as might have been chosen, and if the matter goes further no doubt the Lord Chancellor will have it looked at by his much more expert draftsmen.
I am very glad to hear that the problem in the Felsted case in going to Lord Justice Seller's Committee. I understand that there has been some question about it in another place and that the matter was to be looked at. I am glad to hear that it has now been decided to do this because, as the Lord Chancellor knows that is a case which has been giving fist' to difficulty in recent times.
Then, with regard to ordering a new trial. I appreciate that that is a point on which it would be difficult for the noble and learned Viscount to accept the proposal in a limited way like this without its being extended to the whole range of

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criminal proceedings. Obviously it would be difficult to introduce it here and not Ito introduce it generally. If I may say so, I think the current of the tide has been recently rather setting against the view which the Lord Chancellor is known to have fought for so strenuously some years ago, and there has been a case which I think he will agree rather strengthens the opposite view. However, it is getting late, and I do not propose to carry the matter further. I ask leave to withdraw the Amendment I have moved and I do not propose to move the other Amendments.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 15 [Contribution to costs incurred under certain provisions]:
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: Perhaps I may deal with Amendments Nos. 14 and 15 together. They merely remedy an omission in the clause. Subsection (1) of the clause is intended to be a list of provisions under which a case may be tried, sentenced or dealt with by a court other than the one which would deal with it in the normal course. The later subsections of the clause provide for the distribution of responsibility for the costs of the proceedings in such circumstances, and it is desirable that there should be consistency in all cases of this kind. There should be included in the list the proviso to subsection (3) of Section 1 of the Assizes and Quarter Sessions Act, 1908, which deals with, circumstances in which there is not sufficient business for quarter sessions at a particular place, and allows any case committed there to be sent to another court of quarter sessions. In the interests of uniformity and completeness, I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 7, line 33, at end insert ("the proviso to subsection (3) of section one of the Assizes and Quarter Sessions Act, 1908").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Amendment moved—
Page 8, line 13, after ("1952") insert ("the proviso to subsection (3) of section one of the Assizes and Quarter Sessions Act, 1908").— (The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 15, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 16 to 18 agreed to.
First to Fourth Schedules agreed to.
Fifth Schedule [Enactments Repealed]:
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: This Amendment is consequential. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 15, line 46, at end insert—

("8 Edw. 7. c. 41.

The Assizes and Quarter Sessions Act,1908.

In section one, in subsection (3) paragraphs (a) and (b) of the proviso and the word 'but' preceding those paragraphs.")

—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Fifth Schedule, as amended, agreed to.
House resumed.

EXPIRING LAWS CONTINUANCE BILL
6.42 p.m.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I rise to move the Second Reading of this Bill, and I think it would be helpful if I indicated quite shortly to your Lordships its contents. The first is Section 1 of the Aliens Restriction (Amendment) Act, 1919, which provides for the control of aliens in time of peace, and is the enabling provision on which depends the continued operation of the Aliens Order, 1953, as amended by the Aliens Orders, 1957 and 1960. The next is the Education (Exemptions) (Scotland) Act, 1947, which authorises the employment of children over 13 years of age for the ingathering of the potato crop and secures their exemption from attendance at school for that purpose where the Secretary of State is satisfied that other labour is insufficient. This is another old friend, and I am told that the Government have announced that they will not again seek Parliamentary approval of the renewal of this measure. Therefore it may be the last time that we shall see our old friend on such an occasion.
The third is the Tenancy of Shops (Scotland) Act, 1959, which empowers the sheriff in certain circumstances to grant renewals of expiring tenancies of shops. In January, 1958, a Committee under the Chairmanship of my learned friend, Mr. Ian Shearer, Q.C., was

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appointed by the Secretary of State to consider whether there was need to continue the provisions of the Act after December 31, 1958. The Committee found that there had been no significant decrease in the number of applications made under the Act since 1952, and that the Act continued to serve a useful purpose. They did not favour making the Act permanent, but recommended that it should be continued after December 31, 1958, for a period not exceeding five years. The returns for 1960 show that the protection of the Act is still quite extensively sought throughout Scotland, and it is therefore proposed to continue it for another year.
Next is the Accommodation Agencies Act, 1953. Some of your Lordships will remember that that Act makes the charging of a fee for supplying information about houses and flats to let an offence. It was aimed against fraudulent house agencies which charged a fee for registering peoples' requirements and then supplied lists of vacant accommodation. Such lists were often inaccurate, out of date or unauthorised. The Bill was introduced by an old friend of many of us, Sir Geoffrey Hutchinson, and has served a useful purpose. The next is the Scottish Furnished Houses Control Act. That, I am told, still forms part of the machinery of rent control in Scotland, and it is desirable that the Act should be kept in force until a comprehensive review of that machinery can be undertaken.
Then comes the English Act, which provides for the setting up, in England and Wales, of rent tribunals with the main object of fixing reasonable rents for furnished lettings. The number of cases dealt with by the rent tribunals in England and Wales in the year ended June 31, 1961, rose by about 14 per cent. Accommodation is still in short supply in some areas, and demand continues to be high, particularly in the London area. In the circumstances, it seems desirable to continue the tribunals' existence for a further year.
The last of the measures, Part II of the Licensing Act, 1953, makes provision for co-ordinating the functions of licensing justices and local authorities. Perhaps your Lordships will allow me one personal note here. In 1945 I moved the Second Reading, on behalf of the
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noble Lord, Lord Morrison of Lambeth, who had influenza, of the Licensing Planning (Temporary Provisions) Act. The position was—and I think the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, will remember it—that it was accepted by all parts of the House to be a good idea to get together the licensing justices and the local authorities in bombed areas to sort out the licensing. A lot of work has been done, especially by the London committees. A certain amount of progress has been made both in London and elsewhere, but the time required to complete the work will be longer than was expected. Therefore, we should like it to go on for another year. I ought to tell your Lordships, because your Lordships never like leaving things simmering on without any report, that on August 18, 1961, the Secretary of State made an Order ending licensing planning in six areas with effect from September 1, 1961, so that the matter is working itself out. But it took rather longer than we thought it would. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a. —(The Lord Chancellor.)
6.50 p.m.
LORD SILKIN: My Lords, there is certainly no disposition to ask the House to reject the Second Reading of this Bill. Indeed, it is reasonably satisfactory, because I remember in years gone by the list of Bills that were renewed and continued was very much longer—and we are given some reasonable prospect that the list will be reduced still further. The noble and learned Viscount justified the extension, I think, in every case except one. He did not attempt to justify the first one; he just explained that it was being continued, and I am not surprised, because that is a somewhat controversial one. Perhaps it might be for the convenience of the House if I did not attempt to deal with the Aliens Restriction Act at this time of the night. The noble and learned Viscount himself has had a very trying afternoon and I have too, to a lesser extent; and it might be convenient if we left the discussion until a later stage of the Bill. If that meets with the approval of the noble and learned Viscount, I hone that we may have an opportunity of discussing it at a time and in circumstances when we might have, not a long discussion but a short discussion on the desirability of continuing this particular Act.
LORD OGMORE: My Lords, I had intended saying a few words on the question of the continuation of the Aliens Restriction Act, but in view of the appeal made by the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, I hope to reserve my remarks for a future date.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

  FALLOUT FROM RUSSIAN NUCLEAR TESTS
  FALLOUT FROM RUSSIAN NUCLEAR TESTS