Sitting of 2 March 1961

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  SOUTH-WEST AFRICA

    Mandate
    Mr. D. Footasked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations whether he will state the policy of Her Majesty's Government regarding the future of the Mandate for South-West Africa.
    The Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations (Mr. Duncan Sandys): The attitude of Her Majesty's Govern-men' on this question was fully explained to the House by the then Minister of State on 15th December.
    Mr. Foot: But does not the right hon. Gentleman recollect that on that occasion the Government accepted a Motion, which was unanimously passed by the House, calling on the Government to take action, either at the United Nations or at the Commonwealth Prime Ministers' Conference, to ensure that either South Africa would carry out its obligations under the Mandate, or would surrender the Mandate? In view of the terms of that Resolution, what action do the Government propose to take at the Prime Ministers' Conference?
    Mr. Sandys: I am not aware that this subject will necessarily be raised at the Prime Ministers' Conference.
    Mr. Wade: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether any other action has been taken, Or is to be taken, by Her Majesty's Government?
    Mr. Foot: Are we to understand from the right hon. Gentleman's reply that, in
    1722
    spite of the Government's acceptance of the Motion on 15th December, they propose to take no action whatsoever?
    Mr. Sandys: When the hon. and learned Gentleman talks about acceptance of the Motion, I think the Minister of State made it very clear what the attitude of the Government was on this whole question. I would refer him to the speech made on that occasion.

  SOUTH AFRICA

    High Commission Territories
    Mr. D. Footasked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations when the Government of the Union of South Africa last communicated with Her Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom regarding the transfer to South Africa of the High Commission Territories; and if he will state the nature of such communication, and of the reply.
    Mr. Sandys: The last request from the Government of South Africa for the transfer of these territories was received in July 1956. The reply given was on the lines to the statement made to the House on the 13th April, 1954, by the then Prime Minister, my right hon. Friend the Member for Woodford (Sir W. Churchill), of which for easy reference I am circulating a copy in HANSARD.
    Mr. Foot: Arising out of that reply, is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that the Schedule to the South Africa Act, 1909, which provides the machinery of transfer, clearly contemplates a continuing relationship with the Crown? If such a request is received again, will Her Majesty's Government make it clear to the South African Government that when South Africa becomes a Republic there can no longer be even the faintest possibility of the transfer of these territories?
    Mr. Sandys: Yes. The answer to which I referred made it quite clear that we were not contemplating any transfer. I should like to make it clear that the South Africa Act, 1909, does not place on us any obligation to transfer these territories, and therefore the fact that the Union has decided to become a Republic does not affect the position.
    Following is the statement:
    "There can be no question of Her Majesty's Government agreeing at the present time to the transfer of Basutoland, Bechuanaland and Swaziland to the Union of South Africa. We are pledged, since the South Africa Act of 1909, not to transfer these Territories until their inhabitants have been consulted and until the United Kingdom Parliament has had an opportunity of expressing its views. General Hertzog himself, in 1925, said that his party was not prepared to incorporate in the Union any Territory unless its inhabitants wished it." —[OFFICIAL REPORT, 13th April, 1954; Vol. 526, c. 966.]

    Commonwealth Relations Staff (Afrikaans Language)
    Mr. Elwyn Jonesasked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations how many qualified lawyers, employed in his office in London or on the staff of the United Kingdom High Commissioner in South Africa, are fluent speakers and readers of Afrikaans.
    The Joint Under-Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations (Mr. Bernard Braine): None, Sir.
    Mr. Elwyn Jones: If that is so, can the Joint Under-Secretary of State explain to the House how it was that he and his right hon. Friend were able to consider the significance of the contents of the report of the Commissioner on the Sharpeville shootings, a report of considerable importance to a large number of British-protected persons who were wounded in the shooting, and to the relatives of those who were killed there? If no one in either of these offices could read the report, how on earth was it decided to draw conclusions from it?
    Mr. Braine: I was, of course, answering the Question on the Order Paper. The High Commissioner has on his staff officers who are adequately fluent in the reading and speaking of Afrikaans for normal work. The Question referred to qualified lawyers, however, and it happens that the lawyers do not have this fluency in Afrikaans. Other officials in the Commonwealth Relations Office are fluent in Afrikaans but are not lawyers. I must, of course, make it plain that this was a report to the South African Government and not to the Government in the United Kingdom, but we are concerned with it, and our very proper concern stems from the claims of the Basutos in the Sharpeville shooting,
    1724
    whose interests are adequately secured by the arrangement come to by the Basutoland Government with a firm of qualified lawyers in Ladybrand, who have a staff of qualified lawyers who can read and speak Afrikaans.

    Students, United Kingdom (Accommodation)
    Mr. Ridsdaleasked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations what plans the Government have for increasing the accommodation available for Commonwealth students in this country.
    Mr. Sandys: The Government wish to encourage the development of closer links between young people in the Commonwealth. We have accordingly decided to initiate a programme for providing some 5,000 additional places for overseas students in hostels where they will live and mix with British students. We propose also to provide a number of new or enlarged social and cultural centres to be run by the British Council.
    The Government are prepared to meet the capital expenditure involved up to a maximum of £3 million.
    In addition, we shall, as at present, be prepared to consider applications for financial assistance to voluntary bodies concerned with Commonwealth Youth.
    At the same time, we trust that private support will continue to be forthcoming for projects designed to further the interests of the young people of the Commonwealth, and that voluntary organisations active in this field will bear some share of the cost of this new programme and of the expense of running the hostels with which they are associated.
    In coming to this conclusion, we were much assisted by the advice of a Committee under the chairmanship of Field Marshal Sir Gerald Templer, which examined this whole question, and I wish to express to them the Government's appreciation.
    Mr. Ridsdale: Are we making full use of existing organisations? Also, have arrangements been made to make these plans reciprocal? Much as we welcome Commonwealth students here, should we not make it a two-way traffic and not leave it to President Kennedy alone to take the initiative? Will my hon. Friend take it that we welcome these ideas?
    Mr. Sandys: We certainly should welcome any reciprocal action in this sense among Commonwealth countries. As regards the other point made by my hon. Friend, the British Council has been authorised to consult voluntary organisations, the universities and other educational authorities and institutions about this whole programme.
    Mr. G. M. Thomson: We welcome very much the Minister's announcement. Can he say whether among the voluntary organisations to be assisted is included the Voluntary Service Overseas Organisation, which plays such an excellent part in sending people from this country to Commonwealth countries?
    Mr. Sandys: I am not sure which are the organisations included. I will communicate with the hon. Member.
    Mr. Marquand: Will the Secretary of State consult the Universities of Cape Town and Witwatersrand in order to see whether he can give an opportunity for university education in this country to Africans or Indians who have been denied university education as a result of action by the South African Government in those two universities?
    Mr. Sandys: I will see that the nature of the scheme is made widely known throughout the Commonwealth.

  BASUTOLAND

    Financial Aid
    Mr. Brockwayasked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations what is the total annual financial aid given to Basutoland through the Colonial Development Corporation and other agencies.
    Mr. Braine: I would refer the hon. Member to the Annual Report of the Colonial Development Corporation which shows that possible ways of helping Basutoland are under active consideration. No figure is available of annual financial aid from other agencies, but during recent years the United Nations International Children's Emergency Fund has made gifts of dried milk, vitamins and equipment for maternity and child welfare totalling nearly £19,000, and the World Health Organisation has conducted a nutrition survey costing about £40,000.
    Mr. Brockway: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that reply. I have read the Report, but is he aware that I have also read the Report of the Morse Mission and seen its recommendations? Is it not the case that that Report points out that 130,000 Africans in Basutoland are compelled to go for work in the Union of South Africa and that its proposals would make that unnecessary for a large number of these Africans? Has it not proposed a grant of £2,740,000? Have the Government reached any decision on that matter?
    Mr. Braine: The recommendations of the Morse Report are receiving the active consideration of my right hon. Friend now. I may perhaps add that Basutoland has been granted an allocation of £825,000 under the 1959 Act, of which £430,000 has been spent on education in and the campaign for conservation of the soil and the proper use of land which must be precedent to any proper development of the Territory's resources.

    University College, Roma
    Mr. G. M. Thomsonasked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations what financial help he proposes to give to Pius XII University College at Roma in Basutoland in the light of the recommendation made to him in the Report of the Morse Mission.
    Mr. Braine: A small annual grant is already made by the High Commissioner to the College in respect of the maintenance of students from the High Commission Territories. Any further Government assistance has to be considered in relation to the financial resources available for the Territories and the other claims upon those resources. As was stated in this House on 2nd February in reply to the right hon. Gentleman, the Member for Middlesbrough, East (Mr. Marquand), we are still considering the recommendations of the Morse Report.
    Mr. Thomson: Has not this matter concerning Roma College been dragging on for a very long time? Does the hon. Gentleman not appreciate that, apart from the importance of higher education in the High Commission Territories, as a result of the regrettable

    1727
    educational developments in the Union of South Africa it is now impossible for students to go from the High Commission Territories to the Union? Will he look at the matter very seriously indeed and try to inject some urgency into the consideration of the matter?
    Mr. Braine: The good work undertaken by the College is fully appreciated by my right hon. Friend, but the question of providing the money recommended in the Morse Mission's Report will have to be studied in the light of other pressing demands for development funds and the fact that the College is an institution which at the moment draws the bulk of its students from outside the High Commission Territories. I fully appreciate the sense of urgency behind the hon. Gentleman's Question, and I assure him that we are considering the matter expeditiously; but it should be realised, especially by those who have read it, that this enormous Report covers a very wide field indeed.
    Mr. Marquand: It is almost a year since we debated this subject in the House of Commons. How can the Minister say that he is studying it urgently? All this time has passed since we gave him information about Roma College and put the case forward. He still says that he is studying it. When shall we have some action?
    Mr. Braine: I hesitate to give a complete answer to that question here and now, but I assure the right hon. Gentleman that we are considering the matter as expeditiously as possible. As he well knows, there are very many difficulties which are not easily resolved.

  SWAZILAND

    Economic Development
    Mr. Brockwayasked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations what plans have been authorised for economic development in Swaziland through private capital investment and the Colonial Development Corporation, respectively.
    Mr. Braine: I would refer the hon. Member to the Annual Report of the Colonial Development Corporation,
    1728
    which gives details of the economic development projects in Swaziland in which the Corporation have invested. The major projects financed by private capital concern the forestry, pulp, sugar and fruit-canning industries, and the investigation of mineral resources.
    Mr. Brockway: May I again ask the hon. Gentleman if he has looked at the recommendations of the Morse Report in connection with Swaziland? Is it not the case that that Report points out that there are very great agricultural and mineral resources capable of development in Swaziland and that a grant of £2,667,260 would enable these to be realised? Have the Government reached a decision on that recommendation?
    Mr. Braine: The answer is that of course I have read the recommendations and that these are being considered, but I would not wish the House to believe that nothing is being done. I mentioned a number of instances, and steps are being taken, the hon. Member may care to know, to secure Swazi participation in some of these major projects. Two forestry companies have planted certain areas of Swazi-owned land with conifers, and they are managing the estates till they mature, when the Swazis will be able to sell the timber to local mills. The Swazi nation also has seats on the board of directors of one large irrigation scheme.
    Mr. Marquand: With reference to both of my hon. Friend's Questions, is the hon. Gentleman not aware that it is six months since the Morse Mission reported? How soon will he be able to come to the House and make a studied statement on the whole of the recommendations of the Morse Mission in regard to all three Territories?
    Mr. Braine: If the right hon. Gentleman cares to put that question down I shall perhaps be able to give him some information, but I should not like to give an answer off the cuff.

    Representative Government
    Mr. H. Hyndasked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations what progress is being made towards representative government in Swaziland.
    Mr. Sandys: The consultations about constitutional development in Swaziland, initiated last year, are making progress.
    Mr. Hynd: As this is making very slow progress, will the right hon. Gentleman consider introducing democracy in a small way there as a start by having proper elections for the town council, say at the two principal towns, Mbabane and Bremersdorp? The last time the question was raised one of his predecessors said that it would be done very shortly.
    Mr. Sandys: I am very sorry but I am afraid that I was not aware of that particular point. On the matter generally, all I would say is that things of this kind do take time.

  COMMONWEALTH RELATIONS

    Educational Co-operation Scheme
    Mr. Elwyn Jonesasked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations how many posts in Commonwealth universities have been taken up in accordance with the undertakings given in paragraph 13 of the White Paper on Commonwealth Educational Co-operation, Command Paper No. 1032, May, 1960.
    Mr. Braine: The candidate selected for appointment to the first post to be filled under the scheme is expected to take up his duties at the beginning of the academic year 1961–62. Recruitment for five other posts which have been approved is proceeding.
    Mr. Elwyn Jones: Can the Under-Secretary of State say whether any steps are being taken to facilitate the re-entry of university teachers into the English university world when they return from overseas? Is not difficulty about that re-entry one of the factors limiting the success of this attempted recruitment campaign?
    Mr. Braine: That, of course, is another question. I do appreciate that it is an important one, and I will undertake to have that looked into.
    Mr. G. M. Thomson: Is the hon. Gentleman trying to arrange with the university authorities in this country a code of secondment similar to the one
    1730
    he is recommending to local education authorities?
    Mr. Braine: I would rather not give an answer to that question right now, but, as I say, I will bear that one very much in mind.

  RHODESIA AND NYASALAND

    Relations
    Mr. Fellasked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations what is the policy of Her Majesty's Government with regard to the improvement of relations with the Government of Rhodesia and Nyasaland; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Sandys: It is, naturally, the policy of Her Majesty's Government to maintain the closest possible relations with the Federal Government.
    Mr. Fell: Does my right hon. Friend really think that, having been warned by the Colonial Secretary at the beginning of the Rhodesian debate that it was important to choose his words very carefully, his later violent attack upon Sir Roy Welensky, a British Commonwealth Prime Minister, contributed in any way to furthering friendly relations with the Federation, and will he, if he must tilt at windmills, at least do it at the expense of our enemies rather than of our friends?
    Mr. Sandys: I think my hon. Friend has been reading the headlines in the newspapers rather than what I said. It was more in pain than in anger that I spoke, and I am not at all sure that those remarks I made were not very opportune.

  SOUTHERN RHODESIA

    Constitution
    Mr. Stonehouseasked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations what steps he is taking to ensure that the new constitution proposed for Southern Rhodesia has the support of the African population who now enjoy the protection of the United Kingdom Government.
    Mr. Sandys: As the hon. Member is aware, the new constitutional proposals

    1731
    for Southern Rhodesia are the outcome of a conference at which the Africans were fully represented.
    Mr. Stonehouse: Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that the National Democratic Party has now rejected the conclusions of the conference? Is he aware that a rederendum is being held in the mainly white electorate? If this referendum is being held in the mainly white electorate, could not a referendum be arranged for the African population who look upon Britain as the protecting Power and who have most to lose by these new proposals?
    Mr. Sandys: I am quite sure that they have most to gain by the new proposals.
    Mr. Biggs-Davison: Will not the entry of black African members into the Southern Rhodesian Parliament be a most welcome and, indeed, overdue reform, and is not my right hon. Friend to be congratulated upon it? Is it not regrettable that certain African leaders should have resiled from the agreement made?
    Mr. Sandys: The effect of these proposals so far as representation is concerned is almost certain to be that the Africans who at present have no members of Parliament will have something approaching one-quarter of the seats in the new Parliament.
    Mr. Marquand: Has the right hon. Gentleman had any further negotiations with the National Democratic Party since? Have they had the opportunity together to consider the results of the conference? Has the party made any new representations to him, and is he endeavouring to try to reassure that party about his intentions?
    Mr. Sandys: I do not think we should be too worried about the attitude of the National Democratic Party. It has made it clear on more than one occasion since the conference that it warmly welcomes the new safeguards against discrimination. It described them as a halfway house towards the ideals towards which that party is working. On the question of representation and the franchise, it would naturally have liked to have got more, but that is a common feature in all negotiations. As I said, the new proposals
    1732
    will give the Africans probably about one-quarter of the new seats, and I am quite sure that the Africans as a whole would be extremely disappointed if the new proposals were dropped.

  HIGH COMMISSION TERRITORIES

    Education Conference
    Mr. G. M. Thomsonasked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations if he will give details of the number of students from the High Commission Territories who are at present participating in the schemes arising out of the Commonwealth Education Conference.
    Mr. Braine: In 1960, under the Commonwealth Scholarship and Fellowship Plan, three students from the High Commission Territories won scholarships offered by the United Kingdom. No applications from students in the Territories were made in 1960 under the United Kingdom Government's Scheme of Bursaries for students from the Commonwealth taking courses of training as teachers in this country, but so far this year two applications have been received.
    Mr. Thomson: Are not these numbers very small? Has not the time arrived for a really big educational drive in the High Commission Territories to increase the number of candidates for positions of this kind?
    Mr. Braine: The numbers are small, but we should recognise that this is the beginning of what one hopes will be an ever-growing venture in Commonwealth co-operation. I should say that full information has not yet been received in this country about awards made by all the other Commonwealth countries participating in the plan, but it is known that one student from Basutoland obtained one of the scholarships offered by Canada in 1960.

  NORTHERN RHODESIA

    Constitution
    Mrs. Castleasked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations if he will publish all the communications which

    1733
    have passed between the British Government and the Government of the Central African Federation with regard to the constitutional proposals for Northern Rhodesia.
    Mr. Sandys: I would refer the hon. Lady to the reply which the Prime Minister gave on 27th February to my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Arundel and Shoreham (Captain Kerby).
    Mrs. Castle: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that Sir Roy Welensky has complained that during the course of the conference no fewer than five different plans were produced and the final one contained a last-minute change which he and others had not sufficient time to consider? Can he confirm or deny the story in the Daily Telegraph last week that, in the middle of January, a communication was sent from the British Government to the Federal Government—
    Mr. Speaker: Order. The last part of the hon. Lady's supplementary is out of order.
    Mrs. Castle: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the widely held belief that, in the middle of January, a communication was sent from the British Government to the Federal Government which Sir Roy described as so outrageous that he decided, on the basis of it, to boycott the conference? Does the Secretary of State agree with the Daily Telegraph that it is important to clear the air on this matter?
    Mr. Sandys: It is not my business to agree or disagree with the Daily Telegraph. There are many beliefs which are widely held.
    Mrs. Castle: Does not the Secretary of State's reply show that in this very delicate matter, when there is confusion about what actually happened and when we want to be fair to all the parties concerned, we should know the facts so that we may judge on what basis Sir Roy is taking the stand he is?
    Mr. Sandys: I know that the hon. Lady always looks very objectively at all questions. All I am trying to indicate is that confidential communications should remain confidential.

  EDUCATION

    Teachers
    Mrs. Slaterasked the Minister of Education whether married women returning to the teaching profession are included in a local education authority's quota for women teachers.
    The Minister of Education (Sir David Eccles): During 1961, authorities may recruit outside the quota married women returning to full-time teaching in excess of a fixed target figure. This arrangement gives an incentive to authorities to increase their recruitment.
    Mrs. Slater: Does the right hon. Gentleman mean that this will apply only during 1961? Will there not be a hardship, perhaps, put on new students coming out of college because they may enter into the quota also and, therefore, a local authority will have to reduce the number of students that it takes on?
    Sir D. Eccles: Not at all. This is a continuing campaign. It is necessary to see how the various authorities get on in order to determine the conditions for future years.
    Sir B. Jannerasked the Minister of Education whether he will now make a statement on the result of his advertising campaign for increasing the number of teachers in the country.
    Sir D. Eccles: Interest in this campaign shall shortly ask local education authorities for information about the position reached by the end of this month.
    Sir B. Janner: Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the difficulties arising in consequence of the pensions of teachers being counted as part of their salaries in the event of their being re-employed in this way? Does he not think it important that teachers who have acquired pensions should be allowed to keep them irrespective of any salary they may get?
    Sir D. Eccles: I have sent a memorandum to local authorities on the pensions question, and I will send the hon. Member a copy.
    Dr. King: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the House appreciates

    1735
    both his campaign and that which local authorities are undertaking to recruit teachers, but will he look into the anomalies which act as a disincentive to people coming back, particularly the anomaly that if a retired teacher comes back to help the Minister in time of crisis he is unable to get any benefit from any rise in salary in the profession which has taken place since he left it?
    Sir D. Eccles: This is a difficult question applying to all public servants. I will look into it, although it has always proved very hard to solve.
    Mrs. Whiteasked the Minister of Education what he has done to implement the undertaking given last June that he would offer inducements in competition with Imperial Chemical Industries and Shell to university students who are prepared to enter the teaching profession
    Sir D. Eccles: I have sought the help of the 'teachers, and the campaign is going well, as is shown by the number of graduates entering the teaching profession.
    Mrs. White: Can the Minister not be a little more explicit? In the undertaking to which I am referring and which he gave to the Conservative and Unionist Teachers Association, he suggested that he was to make some extraordinary payment to graduates in competition with these industrial firms, saying that they went around with their recruiting sergeants offering so much more than a bob a nob and that he was proposing to do the same. Can he tell us what he meant by that?
    Sir D. Eccles: I am glad that the hon. Lady has asked that question, because I never said that. I have taken great trouble to look up what I said. I said that we would compete with the recruiting campaign of the big firms in the universities and we are now competing by sending teachers as our recruiting sergeants, and I think the figures prove that they are doing a good job.

    Students (Grants)
    Mr. Fitchasked the Minister of Education if he will make grants to those students who are recommended, as part of their training, to go abroad during their vacation.
    Sir D. Eccles: State Scholars reading for degrees in modern langauges are eligible for additional grant if they are required by the university to attend a course in the country of the main language which they are studying. Local education authorities generally extend the same arrangements to their own university award holders.
    Mr. Fitch: Is the Minister aware that at certain teacher training colleges students taking a foreign language have been informed that they must spend two periods abroad at their own expense if they wish to obtain the advanced course certificate?
    Sir D. Eccles: I am not aware of that. I know that if students in teacher training colleges are chosen to take a course abroad, when French is their main subject, a grant is made.
    Mr. Fitchasked the Minister of Education if he will raise the personal grants made to students during their period at college in view of the proposed increase in their National Insurance contributions.
    Sir D. Eccles: No, Sir. National Insurance contributions are not compulsory for students, and grants were never intended to cover them. Arrangements already exist for students if they wish to make up, during their first six years in employment, contributions which they did not pay while at college.

    Youth Leaders
    Mr. Longdenasked the Minister of Education what progress has been made with the establishment of a committee for negotiating the salary scales of full-time youth leaders.
    Sir D. Eccles: A committee has now been established and held its first meeting on 28th February. The committee will deal with conditions of service as well as salaries, and will advise me on the qualifications that should be required for the status of qualified youth leader. I will, with permission, circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT the composition of the Committee.
    Mrs. White: Are the findings of this committee to be binding in the sense that the Burnham Committee findings are binding?
    Sir D. Eccles: No. I hope that all local authorities will follow the recommendations, but I am advised that, if necessary, the terms of Section 8 of the Terms and Conditions of Employment Act, 1959, would apply.
    Mr. Longden: I thank my right hon. Friend for his Answer. Does he agree that it is desirable that these salaries should bear some relation to or be comparable with the Burnham scale so as to facilitate opportunities for transfer between this new career and the teaching profession?
    Sir D. Eccles: From the composition of the committee, my hon. Friend will see that it is likely that its recommendations will follow very closely the Burnham scale.
    The initial composition of the Committee is as follows:

    Employers' Panel

    County Councils Association

    3

    Association of Municipal Corporations

    3

    Association of Education Committees

    2

    London County Council.

    1

    Welsh Joint Education Committee

    1

    National Voluntary Organisations(through SCNVYO)

    2

    Employees' Panel

    National Association of Local Education Authority Youth Leaders

    4

    National Union of Teachers

    2

    National and Local Government Officers' Association

    2

    Association of Teachers in Technical Institutions

    2

    Associations representing leaders employed by voluntary organisations

    2

    School-Leaving Dates
    Mr. Longdenasked the Minister of Education whether he is now able to make a statement about the introduction of legislation to reduce the school-leaving dates to two per annum, at Easter and in July, as recommended by the Crowther Committee.
    Mrs. Whiteasked the Minister of Education what progress he has made in negotiations on reducing the number of leaving dates in secondary schools.
    Sir D. Eccles: The Government have decided to accept the Crowther recommendation that the number of school-leaving dates should be reduced to two. The effect of this will be that pupils born in the months September to January inclusive will be free to leave at Easter and the remainder in July. In view of
    1738
    the serious teacher shortage expected in 1962–63, the change will not be made until September, 1963, before which date legislation will be introduced.
    Mrs. White: I welcome that statement, but will the Minister make it clear that, although it is probably necessary to do it in two stages, educationally one leaving date would be much more satisfactory, and he has not closed his mind entirely to that possibility?
    Sir D. Eccles: That is my view. I regret that it has not been possible to take just one bite at the cherry.

    Public Libraries (Gramophone Records)
    Mr. Teelingasked the Minister of Education whether he will extend the terms of reference of the working party to be appointed by him to consider the basic requirements for an efficient public library service, to include the problem of duplication by privately-owned tape recorders of gramophone records in circulation from pubic libraries, and to make recommendations; and if he will make a statement.
    Sir D. Eccles: No, Sir. This is essentially a copyright problem and not suitable for consideration by this committee.
    Mr. Teeling: Will my right hon. Friend say what protection composers and producers of gramophone records can have in view of the fact that public libraries now let records out entirely free? Does not this make complete nonsense of the matter?
    Sir D. Eccles: This is a question for my right bon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade.

    "Schools and the Commonwealth"
    Mr. Leatherasked the Minister of Education what response he has had from local education authorities to his official pamphlet, No. 40, entitled, "Schools and the Commonwealth": and what steps local authorities are taking to ensure its circulation throughout schools.
    Sir D. Eccles: This pamphlet has been widely welcomed, but it is too early to make an assessment of the local education authorities' response.
    Mr. Leather: I understand my right hon. Friend's difficulty. Would it be possible for him in, say, six or twelve months' time to call for a return from the local authorities to report their action so that we can have some definite idea of what action they have taken?
    Sir D. Eccles: Yes, Sir and I shall hope to be able to include the response from overseas as well.

    School Building, Lancashire
    Mr. H. Hyndasked the Minister of Education what estimates for school building were presented by the Lancashire Education Authority for the years 1961–62 and 1962–63; and what amounts he authorised for those years.
    Sir D. Eccles: Proposals for the years 1960–61 and 1961–62 were submitted together; the amount asked for was about £.6½ million and that authorised was about £5¾ million. Proposals for an additional £500,000 were authorised later. For the 1962–63 programme proposals amounting to £4¼ million were received and those authorised amounted to about £2¾ million.
    Mr. Hynd: While I do not want to pursue the matter, in view of the recent delegation to the Minister, when he can screw some more money out of the Treasury will he bear in mind the special needs of Lancashire, particularly the need to renovate and bring up to date some of the old dilapidated schools where they cannot be completely replaced?
    Sir D. Eccles: As I told the hon. Member and his friends, when the school building reorganisation is complete, as it shortly will be, replacement will have a larger share.

    Widdicombe House School
    Mr. Doddsasked the Minister of Education what is the reason for the delay in completion of the investigation undertaken, on the request of the hon. Member for Erith and Crayford in a letter dated 21st December, 1960, into the allegations concerning the treatment of boys at the Widdicombe House School.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Education (Mr. Kenneth Thompson): One of Her Majesty's
    1740
    Inspectors and two of the Ministry's Medical Officers visited the school a week after the beginning of the present term and have made a report which has today been sent to the proprietor for his comments.
    Mr. Dodds: Surely Parliament is to be told something about this. Is the hon. Gentleman aware that many parents have been worried and distressed by the allegations made and widely publicised, and can we take it that the result of this investigation will be made available to Members of Parliament?
    Mr. Thompson: If the hon. Member puts down a Question, we will do our best to answer it for him.

  MALTA

    Constitution
    Mr. Hector Hughesasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he is yet in a position to make a detailed statement on the constitution of Malta.
    Mr. Dribergasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will make a statement on the present political and economic situation in Malta; and how soon it is proposed to restore to the Maltese people the rights which they enjoyed until the suspension of the constitution.
    The Secretary of State for the Colonies (Mr. Iain Macleod): I shall publish the report of the Blood Commission and make a statement to the House next week,

  KENYA

    General Election
    Sir A. Hurdasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will make a statement on the outcome of the general election in Kenya and the powers which the Governor will continue to exercise.
    Mr. lain Macleod: The strength of the major parties after the elections for constituency members is as follows:

    Kenya African National Union

    18

    Kenya African Democratic Union and supporters

    12

    New Kenya Party

    4

    Kenya Coalition

    3

    Kenya Indian Congress

    3

    1741
    The remaining 13 seats went mainly to independents. I am circulating full details in the OFFICIAL REPORT. I understand that the election of the 12 National Members will take place on 16th March.
    Under the new Constitution the Governor's constitutional powers are unchanged. He remains responsible for the administration of Kenya, in which he is advised and assisted by his Council of Ministers. In selecting the unofficial members of this Council he will naturally have regard to the distribution of parties within the Legislature, but the formation of a government is his responsibility.
    Sir A. Hurd: Will my right hon. Friend agree that it is to the credit of all parties—and perhaps I may include the police—that what might have been a riotous election has passed off so extraordinarily quietly? May we take it that it will be the purpose of the Governor now to proceed to form a government to which he will invite all elected representatives, regardless of race, who are prepared to join in non-racial government? Will we treat Jomo Kenyatta in such a way that he is reduced to man size while the new Ministers are playing themselves in?
    Mr. Macleod: I am sure that everybody is very happy that, contrary to many gloomy prophecies, the elections in Kenya went off so quietly and so well. The Governor will proceed to invite people to serve on the Council of Ministers, using the proportions of unofficials which were laid down in the Lancaster House Constitution. He may wish to wait for the election of the national members which, as I have said, is on 16th March. The full reasons both for not releasing Jomo Kenyatta from restriction and for removing him from Lodwar to Maralal were given yesterday by the Governor in a statement which, of course, had the full approval of Her Majesty's Government.
    Mr. Stonehouse: Is the Colonial Secretary aware that the successful and peaceful outcome of the elections in Kenya is a compliment to his skilful handling of the constitutional talks? Will he let the significance of that be known in Northern Rhodesia? Is he aware that there is widely held regret in Kenya that Jomo Kenyatta is to continue to be held
    1742
    in detention, and will he give his personal attention to this matter so that the continued detention of Jomo Kenyata will not prejudice the formation of a successful administration?
    Mr. Macleod: I am grateful for what the hon. Member has said, but the credit belongs to the people in Kenya. I hope that everybody who is invited to serve in this Government, whether African. European, or Asian, will realise that the question of whether a man is or is not released from restriction is in no circumstances a matter on which the Governor can bargain?
    Sir H. Oakshott: My right hon. Friend mentioned the constitutional position and the powers of the Governor. Will not he encourage the Governor to make a public statement spelling out those powers in Kenya, as that might go a long way towards rebuilding confidence and perhaps to bring about a resumption of investment in Kenya?
    Mr. Macleod: I am sure the Governor has that in mind and that at the proper time will make such a statement.
    Following are the details:

    Open Seats

    Kenya African National Union

    18

    Kenya African Democratic Union and supporters

    12

    Independents

    3

    European Reserved Seats

    New Kenya Party

    4

    Kenya Coalition

    3

    Independents

    3

    Asian non-Muslim Reserved Seats

    Kenya Indian Congress

    3

    Kenya Freedom Party

    1

    Independent

    1

    Asian Muslim Reserved Seats

    Kenya Muslim League

    1

    Independent

    2

    Arab Reserved Seats

    Independents

    2

  AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD

    Icelandic Fisheries Dispute
    Mr. Croslandasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what recent representations he has received from the employers and trade unions in the fishing industry as to the consequences of the Icelandic dispute; and whether he will make a statement.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Mr. W. M. F. Vane): Representatives of both sides of the, industry recently expressed their grave concern about the delay in reaching a settlement. They have since informed my right hon. Friend that they are ready to support the Government in accepting the proposals now before the Icelandic Parliament of which my right hon. Friend the Lord Privy Seal informed the House on Tuesday.
    Mr. Crosland: I doubt whether that accurately reflects the views of one side of the industry in practice. In any event, in view of the nature of this settlement, which was very much worse than the industry was expecting and which has dealt it a heavy blow, will the hon. Gentleman now expedite a decision on the Fleck Report recommendation that Government aid should be extended to the distant-water section of the fleet?
    Mr. Vane: My right hon. Friend is fully cognisant of the need to expedite a decision on the Fleck Report, but the hon. Gentleman will realise that it is a complicated and comprehensive report and that before one can be definite one must appreciate the full implications to the fishing industry.
    Mr. Hector Hughes: Have the representations which the Minister has received referred in any way to the inconclusive and unsatisfactory nature of the so-called settlement announced the other day?
    Mr. Vane: My right hon. Friend was in close touch with representatives of the owners, skippers and mates and crews over the weekend, and he has consulted them recently about the terms of the settlement which my right hon. Friend the Lord Privy Seal announced in the House.

    Foot-and-Mouth Disease
    Sir A. Hurdasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food to what sources of infection he attributes the primary outbreaks of foot-and-mouth disease in Shropshire and Warwickshire which necessitated movement restrictions covering 18 counties.
    Mr. Vane: The primary outbreaks in Shropshire and Warwickshire were among
    1744
    pigs believed to have been fed with inadequately treated swill which may have contained infected meat imported from South America.
    Sir A. Hurd: I congratulate my hon. Friend on being a little less coy about attributing the cause in this instance. Does he realise that this is a matter of very grave concern, not only to farmers in the 18 counties already subject to control of movement orders, but to the other three areas reported today—Cornwall, Devon and Somerset? Does he appreciate that this is a serious matter and that we must pin the blame where it properly belongs so that whatever faults there may be can be remedied.
    Sir J. Duncan: In view of what has been said, will my hon. Friend ban the importation—at any rate, for the time being—of pork and pig meat from South America?
    Mr. Vane: The proposed ban on the import of pork and pig meat from South America became effective recently.

  NATIONAL FINANCE

    Purchase Tax
    Mr. Nabarroasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer why oil, gas and electrical domestic space and water heating appliances are required to pay Purchase Tax at 25 per cent. whereas solid fuel space and water heating appliances pay no Purchase Tax.
    The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Anthony Barber): My right hon. and learned Friend's predecessor explained on 21st May, 1958, in Committee on the Finance Bill of that year the considerations that led him to impose tax at the same rate on oil, gas and electric heaters. Solid fuel heaters have been exempt for many years and the withdrawal of that exemption was not thought to be justified.
    Mr. Nabarro: Will my hon. Friend represent to the Chancellor of the Exchequer that this illogicality has now persisted for 15 years? As the policy of Her Majesty's Government is free competition among all forms of fuel in the domestic market, why is an onerous burden placed on three out of four of the alternatives and the fourth exempted?
    Mr. Barber: I assume that my hon. Friend is not seeking to correct the disparity by imposing Purchase Tax on grates, fireplaces and solid fuel stoves and that he is, therefore, seeking a reduction of Purchase Tax on the other appliances. He will understand that this is not a matter on which I can comment at this time.

  HOME DEPARTMENT

    George Riley
    Mr. V. Yatesasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he has given further consideration to the additional information about the case of George Riley given to him by the hon. Member for Ladywood; and whether he will arrange for an inquiry to be held, in order to ascertain whether there has been a miscarriage of justice.
    The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. R. A. Butler): Before reaching my decision, I gave the fullest consideration to the representations made to me by the hon. Member and others, as well as to all the information available to me from many sources. I am satisfied that there has been no miscarriage of justice, and that there is no ground for an inquiry.
    Mr. Yates: As the chief prosecution witness at the Riley trial, the police officer, was subjected to a disciplinary investigation by the Chief Constable of Shropshire and a complaint about the manner of the proceedings and the way they were carried out was made to the Law Society, does not the right hon. Gentleman think that there should be an inquiry in the interests of justice? Would he be willing to place a transcript of the trial in the Library?
    Mr. Butler: In view of the precedents, I would like to have notice of that last question, which I will consider. answered the earlier part of the question in the debate initiated by the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman), and it was also answered by my right hon. and learned Friend the Attorney-General. I pointed out then that the police officer had been cleared of the charges which were laid at his door, and I have nothing to add to what I said on that occasion.
    Mr. Longden: Will my right hon. Friend agree that in the meantime it would be a good thing to make it an invariable rule that confessions obtained in a police station should be repeated under oath in open court?
    Mr. Butler: I should like to say in relation to that general question that in answering questions from the hon. Member for Islington, East (Mr. Fletcher) and others I said that I would look into these matters. I have been looking into them and when I am ready I will, if I may, make a statement, because it is quite reasonable that there should be an investigation.
    Mr. Gordon Walker: While the last answer of the right hon. Gentleman will be welcome, because very important questions are raised here which go beyond the particular case, referring to the point raised by my hon. Friend, would not the right hon. Gentleman agree that in this case it would be of great use to have a transcript available? If we put down a Question next week, could the right hon. Gentleman give us an answer?
    Mr. ButlerI should like to look with impartiality in relation to what I described as the precedents. We must be sure we are following what is normal in this case, and, within reason, I should like to consider what has been put to me.

    POLARIS SUBMARINE BASE
    Mrs. Castleasked the Prime Minister what approaches he has had from the President of the United States of America with regard to the cancellation of the Polaris missile base at Holy Loch.
    The Prime Minister (Mr. Harold Macmillan): I would refer the hon. Member to the answer I gave to the hon. Member for Don Valley (Mr. Kelley) on 23rd February.
    Mrs. Castle: Is not the truth of this matter that President Kennedy is perfectly willing to cancel this base which is a matter of convenience and not necessity to the United States forces, but that the Prime Minister will not allow him because he asked for it in the first place

    1747
    and is now afraid that its withdrawal would be a blow to his prestige? Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that we are all getting tired of Government by "MacVanity"?
    The Prime Minister: No, Sir. I understand the submarine is on its way and will make use of these facilities.
    Mr. Emrys Hughes: In view of the unsatisfactory nature of that reply, I beg to give notice that I shall raise the question on the Adjournment.

    DISARMAMENT
    Mr. P. Noel-Bakerasked the Prime Minister if he will appoint a committee of British experts to prepare a detailed plan for general disarmament under international control to be submitted to the Prime Ministers of the Commonwealth Governments and thereafter to the competent organ of the United Nations,
    The Prime Minister: No, Sir. I would refer the right hon. Gentleman to the replies I gave to Questions by the hon. Member for Dundee, East (Mr. G. M. Thomson) on 23rd February.
    Mr. Noel-Baker: Does the Prime Minister recall that in September, 1959, before the General Election, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, then the Foreign Secretary, proposed the objective of drastic disarmament to the United Nations Assembly, which endorsed it? Does not he think that a British committee of experts might turn the Chancellor's generalities into a concrete, practical and realistic plan?
    The Prime Minister: The proposal which I made last autumn is still before the United Nations. The proposal was that it should be a multilateral committee, because, after all, it was that system which led to the start of the nuclear test discussions; that was the parallel I had in mind.
    Mr. Noel-Baker: I quite realise that the Prime Minister proposed an international committee, but would not it help that committee if it had before it a plan prepared by British experts covering both disarmament and control?
    The Prime Minister: If an international committee came into being, certainly the British experts would prepare their contribution.
    Mr. Gaitskell: May we take it that it is the desire of the Prime Minister that the British plan for disarmament, plus any modification which may be thought necessary, will be discussed at the Prime Ministers' Conference and an effort be made to secure the unanimous support of the Commonwealth for it?
    The Prime Minister: What we would hope to do would be to try to get what I might call a common approach. As the right hon. Gentleman knows, it is not the practice for the Prime Ministers' Conference to commit itself to a precise or detailed plan, but I hope that as a result of our discussions we may get a common approach to this problem, which would certainly be of the greatest help when next we take it up at the United Nations.

    LAOS
    Mr. Warbeyasked the Prime Minister if he will take the opportunity afforded by Mr. Nehru's forthcoming visit to London to discuss with him the situation in Laos.
    The Prime Minister: I have no doubt that there will be opportunities for discussing this important subject with Mr. Nehru and other Commonwealth Prime Ministers.
    Mr. Warbey: Will the Prime Minister please listen to Mr. Nehru's advice on this occasion instead of ignoring it, as he did throughout the whole of last year, when the situation was less acute than it is now? In particular, will he take Mr. Nehru's advice on one point, namely, that the situation in Laos is so serious that it can be resolved only by recalling the Geneva Convention to give a fresh mandate to the International Commission?
    The Prime Minister: These are very large subjects. We have had great benefit from interchanges with Mr. Nehru and other Commonwealth Prime Ministers. That is a practice which is of great value to us, and we shall continue to try to work out these problems together.
    Mr. W. Hamilton: Can the Prime Minister say whether the Foreign Secretary discussed this question with Mr. Nehru during his recent visit to India—or was he too busy missing tigers?

    SECRETARY OF STATE FOR COMMONWEALTH RELATIONS (SPEECH)
    Mr. Dugdaleasked the Prime Minister whether the speech made by the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations about the structure of the Commonwealth at the Young Conservatives Conference represents the policy of Her Majesty's Government.
    The Prime Minister: My right hon. Friend's speech contained no statement of policy.
    Mr. Dugdale: Did the Prime Minister note the statement:
    "Let us take the broad view that here are countries that basically want the same sort of thing in the world, though they may show marked differences one from another"?
    Does he think that the Union of South Africa and ourselves basically want the same sort of thing in the world?
    The Prime Minister: I think that as a general proposition, regarding the Commonwealth as a whole, what my right hon. Friend said was very wise and very true.

    NORTHERN RHODESIA (CONSTITUTIONAL PROPOSALS)
    Mr. Biggs-Davisonasked the Prime Minister What steps the Government took to inform the Prime Minister of the Federation of Rhodesia and Nyasaland of the contents of the constitutional proposals for Northern Rhodesia, outlined in Command Paper No. 1295, and to obtain his opinions thereon.
    The Prime Minister: Her Majesty's Government undertook in 1953 to seek the views of the Federal Government on amendments to the territorial constitutions. This undertaking was discharged in the case of these proposals for Northern Rhodesia.
    Prime MinisterHer Majesty's Government undertook in 1953 to seek the views of the Federal Government on amendments to the territorial constitutions. This undertaking was discharged in the case of these proposals for Northern Rhodesia
    Mr. Biggs-Davison: In view of the tension between London and Salisbury, was it not unwise not to give the Federal
    1750
    Prime Minister little more than a weekend to consider proposals which seemed to him to depart from the non-racial policy of the 1958 White Paper? Since the Government were responsible for the Federation, with its great success and greater hopes, will my right hon. Friend now do everything possible to restore cordial co-operation between Her Majesty's Government and the Federal Government?
    The Prime Minister: Of course, we want that. We want to try to make arrangements which will get the maximum of support. I think the House as a whole is conscious that when one is trying to take a fair course, with perhaps extremes of view on either side, it is difficult, but it is a thing which we must not abandon. We must go on trying and I hope that we shall succeed.
    Mr. Gaitskell: Sir Roy Welensky in his recent speech indicated that he would be prepared, or rather the Federal Party would be prepared, to take part in discussions with the Governor of Northern Rhodesia if other solutions were not barred. Have the Government made any reply to Sir Roy Welensky on this point and answered the other allegations made in that speech?
    The Prime Minister: I thought that particular passage in the speech was very helpful. He will be here in a day or two and perhaps we had better wait to consult with him.

    EUROPEAN COMMON MARKET
    Mr. Roy Jenkinsasked the Prime Minister whether, as a result of his discussions with Dr. Adenauer, he proposes to announce Great Britain's readiness to join the European Common Market, subject to satisfactory negotiation of a number of detailed points.
    The Prime Minister: No, Sir. But Her Majesty's Government have repeatedly emphasised that we are resolved to find a solution to the economic split in Europe. We think that progress is being made through the bilateral talks we have been conducting with the Germans, Italians and the French. We hope that these useful exchanges of views may lead in time to formal negotiations. But, of

    1751
    course, there are many interests both here and abroad to be reconciled.
    Mr. Jenkins: Is not it clear that the latest moves of the Lord Privy Seal in his Paris proposals, while they might have been useful if made two years ago, will not now solve the problem of our relations with the Six? Would not it be better to change our strategy and announce our readiness to become full participants and then negotiate in the much more favourable climate which would be created?
    The Prime Minister: These are matters of approach. As I have said before, I am anxious not to have formal negotiations which fail. That would be a great blow to Europe. I think that these discussions of an informal character, as a prelude to formal negotiations, are wise.
    Mr. Grimond: As the Lord Privy Seal described his speech as showing a fundamental change of principle in the Government's attitude, and as it recognised that we now accept a harmonious tariff, and went on to say that no arrangements would be satisfactory to us which did not involve political as well as economic collusion with the Six, does not it mean that the Government are to make some approach to the Six with a view to being associated with them not only economically but politically?
    The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman must make his own interpretation of what the Lord Privy Seal said, though I agree that what he has said is roughly right. I may be wrong, but I have a little experience in these things, and I am still very anxious that we should not have formal negotiations which break down. But, whatever may be said about accepting this principle or that, it is obvious that there are a great number of difficulties to be overcome and it is wiser to see how far we can get with this before embarking on any formal negotiations.
    Mr. Jay: Will the Prime Minister bear in mind the importance to the United Kingdom of preserving tariff-free entry of food and raw material imports from the Commonwealth to this country?
    The Prime Minister: That is one of the reasons why we cannot just simply join without discussion of conditions.
    Mr. G. Brown: When the Prime Minister says that we should not have formal negotiation which breaks down, does he mean that we should keep the field open for what Sir Roy Welensky understands by "doing a Macmillan"?
    The Prime Minister: The right hon. Member is making a great bid for the leadership, but I do not think that will get him very far.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Mr. Gaitskell: May I ask the Leader of the House whether he will state the business for next week?
The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. R. A. Butler): Yes, Sir. The business for next week will be as follows:
MONDAY, 6TH MARCH—We find it necessary to ask the House to consider a timetable Motion for the National Health Service Contributions Bill and for the National Health Service Bill. which is before a Standing Committee.
The terms of the Motion will appear on the Order Paper tomorrow morning.
TUESDAY, 7TH MARCH—Supply [7th Allotted Day]: Army Estimates, 1961–62, will be considered in Committee on Vote A.
WEDNESDAY, 8TH MARCH—Supply 8th Allotted Day]: Air Estimates, 1961–62. will be considered in Committee on Vote A.
THURSDAY, 9TH MARCH—We shall consider further the National Health Service Contributions Bill.
Consideration of the Motions to approve the Police Pensions (Amendment) Regulations, and similar Regulations for Scotland.
FRIDAY, 10TH MARCH—Consideration of Private Members' Bills.
We propose to suspend the Ten o'clock Rule for two hours on Tuesday for the Army Estimates and on Wednesday for the Air Estimates, as indeed, is our proposal today in relation to the Navy Estimates.
Mr. Gaitskell: Is the Leader of the House aware that the introduction of a

1753
timetable Motion, a Guillotine, to suppress debate on the National Health Service Contributions Bill and the National Health Service Bill is, in our view, indefensible, that these Bills are against the public interest, that they are very short Bills on which, one would have supposed, any reasonable Government could find time for adequate discussion, and that we consider this to be absolutely unjustifiable merely because Tory Members are unable, or unwilling, to stay up late at night?
Mr. Butler: When the right hon. Gentleman and the House have an opportunity of studying the Motion on the Order Paper, they will see that it is deliberately drawn so as to give ample opportunity for all points of view to be put at a proper time of day and for proper consideration. That will apply not only to the National Health Service Contributions Bill, but to the Bill which is in Standing Committee. There are many precedents for action of this sort. In view of the time which has been taken up on these Bills, which the Government regard as a necessary part of their programme, this is a perfectly legitimate action, with very respectable precedents provided by Governments formed by hon. Members opposite.
Mr. Gaitskell: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether there is a precedent for such a very short Bill as this being guillotined? Can he suggest any occasion when a Bill of this kind has been guillotined in the middle of its process, either in Standing Committee or in this House? Can he say why, if in his view he is giving us ample time for discussing it, he needs to have a Guillotine Motion at all?
Mr. Butler: It was the wish of the Government to reach an agreement on the future time for these Bills. Contact was made with the right hon. Gentleman and the Opposition, but it was found impossible to reach agreement, no doubt for perfectly honourable reasons. I am quite satisfied that the course we are now proposing is more in the interests of the future passage of these Bills than anything else, except an agreement, and, as we cannot get a reasonable agreement, we are proposing a reasonable time in which they can be considered.
Mr. Gaitskell: It is not the business of the Opposition to reach agreement for
1754
facilitating Government business which, in our view, is extremely unpopular and quite unjustifiable as a matter of policy. None of this business justifies the introduction of the Guillotine.
Mr. Butler: The Opposition are quite at liberty to make an agreement or not as they wish. That is a matter which is perfectly honourable between both sides, but, in looking to the future, I am perfectly satisfied that the course that we are recommending is both fair and reasonable in the public interest.
Mr. Wilkins: Can the Leader of the House give us one valid reason why a Guillotine should be imposed on the Bill which is now in Standing Committee A? Has he been made aware by the Whip in charge of the Government benches of the fact that it is Opposition Members of that Committee who have been keeping a quorum, and that for one-and-aquarter hours this morning there were never more than four back bench Tory Members on the benches in that Committee? There is no need for a gag what-ever for Government hon. Members because they have been made tongue-tied for three meetings, and—
Mr. Speaker: Order. No doubt we can argue all those sort of things when the Guillotine Motion comes before us. but we are now on business.
Mr. Wilkins: On a point of order. Should not the Leader of the House give a reply to my question, Sir?
Mr. Speaker: With no discourtesy to the hon. Member, I thought that that was all proper for discussion and answer by the appropriate Minister when we debate the proposed Motion.
Dame Irene Ward: Has my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House observed a Motion in my name on the question of a nuclear-powered ship?
[That, in view of Press disclosures of Her Majesty's Government's plans for the building of a nuclear powered ship, a full statement on the matter should be made by Her Majesty's Government without delay.]
As it appeared that a disclosure of information had been made, if we cannot prevent leaks could we have a full statement on the matter by setting aside a day for discussing the whole problem of shipbuilding, shipping and ship-repairing?

1755
Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that this is very necessary, as I am sure hon. Members on both sides of the House would agree? Would it not be possible for the Government to set aside a day for their own supporters to discuss things in which we are interested?
Mr. Butler: I should always like to satisfy my hon. Friend, but we have a very busy time now in Supply. While I shall discuss this with my right hon. Friends principally concerned, I must remind the House that the business of Supply takes up a great deal of our time at this time of the year.
Mr. K. Robinson: Reverting to Monday's business and the timetable Motion, may I ask the Leader of the House how he can possibly justify such a Motion in respect of the National Health Service Bill, which has been in Standing Committee for three sittings and on which the Government never once moved the Closure?
Mr. Butler: I read the introductory remarks of the hon. Member in the Standing Committee. The Bill is an urgent one. There are a great many Amendments to the Bill on the Notice Paper and without this procedure I foresee an indefinite process in discussing the Bill.
Mr. Nabarro: Will my right hon. Friend confirm that the House will rise for the Easter Recess on 30th March and resume on Tuesday. 11th April, and that that day will be Budget day?
Mr. Butler: My hon. Friend knows a great deal more than I do. When the time comes we shall make the necessary arrangements and announcements about our business.
Mr. Hector Hughes: Does the Leader of the House realise that he is playing cat and mouse with white fish and herring and that is a very unsavoury game to play with one of Britain's major industries? Why did he withdraw that Bill last night? When does he propose to reinstate it on the Order Paper?
Mr. Butler: The cat, in the shape of the right hon. Member for Belper (Mr. G. Brown), made a fine broadcast and, certainly, he was not kept up all night, but I think that I ought to give the House the reasons why we did not proceed with
1756
that Bill. They were twofold. First, we overestimated the time which we thought the Instructions on the British Transport Commission Bill would take last night, for which we moved the suspension Motion.
The second was that we discovered that the Financial Resolution—[HON. MEMBERS: "Another mistake?"]—was not wide enough to cope with Clause 3 (2) of the Bill. We shall, therefore, be laying a new Financial Resolution. [HON. MEMBERS: "oh."] I thought it right to tell the House the exact position. I cannot give the date for this, but we shall lay a new Financial Resolution which will have to go through the normal procedure.
Mr. Hector Hughes: Is not what the right hon. Gentleman said about the white fish and herring industries a disgraceful way to treat one of Britain's major industries, on which tens of thousands of our people all round the coast of Britain depend? Why not restore the Bill to the Order Paper for next week's business?
Mr. Butler: It is precisely because we wanted the Financial Resolution to be quite wide enough before we entered into further debate that we decided on this procedure.
Mr. Gaitskell: Will the right hon. Gentleman tell us whether that means that the whole of the Committee stage of the Bill has to be started afresh? If so, will he give us an assurance that he will not introduce a Guillotine Motion for the White Fish and Herring Industries Bill?
Mr. Butler: I am informed by the authorities that it will not be necessary to take the whole of the Committee stage of the Bill again. It will be necessary to take the Financial Resolution through its stages again. It will have to be relaid, and reconsidered by the House. That is the position.
Mr. Fernyhough: Does the right hon. Gentleman think that he is being fair to the House over the business on next Tuesday and Wednesday, when he is proposing only a two-hour extension? Does he not realise that on those two days we shall be discussing Estimates exceeding £1,000 million, and that more time should be given, so that anyone

1757
who has a contribution to make may make it? Will not he consider allowing all the time necessary for debating these two important Estimates?
Mr. Butler: We have thought about this very carefully. It is according to precedent in recent years to extend for two hours, and we think that that is reasonable.
Mr. McMaster: In support of my hon. Friend the Member for Tynemouth (Dame Irene Ward), may I ask my right hon. Friend whether he will consider finding time for a Motion, standing in the names of many hon. Members for Ulster and other hon. Members representing other parts of the United Kingdom, asking for a debate on the shipbuilding industry, in view of the grave unemployment amongst those working in the industry?
[That this House notes with very grave concern the serious problems facing the British shipbuilding industry, and urges Her Majesty's Government to take all possible steps to remedy the situation.]
Mr. Butler: I can only give the same answer, which is that I will give the matter consideration.
Mr. Marquand: Has the attention of the Leader of the House been drawn to a Motion, in the name of more than 50 right hon. and hon. Gentlemen and myself, concerning a Commonwealth Convention of Human Rights? Is he aware that this is a constructive proposal, designed to strengthen the Commonwealth and raise its standing in the eyes of the world?
As the right hon. Gentleman has not announced any prospective business for Monday, 13th March, does he not think that this would be a very appropriate subject to debate on that day?
[That this House, recalling the solemn obligation undertaken by the United Kingdom and other Commonwealth countries to co-operate with the United Nations by joint and separate action in promoting respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms for all, without distinction of race; welcoming the accession by Her Majesty's Government of the European Convention of Human Rights and its application to Crown colonies and protectorates; noting that provision for the protection of human
1758
rights has been made in the constitutions of Commonwealth countries which have recently become independent; and recognising that the Commonwealth cannot endure unless all its members recognise and guarantee human rights and fundamental freedoms irrespective of race, colour, sex or creed, calls upon Her Majesty's Government to invite all member-countries of the Commonwealth to join with the United Kingdom in making at the forthcoming Conference of Prime Ministers a Commonwealth Declaration of Human Rights so that all citizens of the Commonwealth, wherever residing, may be assured of the enjoyment of those fundamental rights and of protection against any infringement of the same.]
Mr. Butler: We have to pay attention to the needs of Supply at this time of year. While I do not underestimate the importance of the Motion, which I have read, I cannot go further now.
Mr. Gresham Cooke: In view of the great interest that has been aroused on both sides of the House in the last few weeks by the working of the Homicide Act, and in view of the Motion standing in the names of myself and many other hon. Members, calling for its amendment, can my right hon. Friend say whether there is likely to be a debate on the subject before Easter?
[That this House is of the opinion that the Homicide Act, 1957, should immediately be amended so that the courts may have the power to impose the death penalty on those guilty of murder while making a sexual attack.]
Mr. Butler: It would be extremely difficult to find the time, although I have always said that I think it an important subject.
Mrs. White: Can the Leader of the House tell us what business he proposes to take on Monday, 13th March?
Mr. Butler: It will be announced in due course.
Mr. Ross: May I put to the right hon. Gentleman a fairly reasonable suggestion? Will he suspend the rule on Monday?
Mr. Butler: That will have to be under consideration.
Mr. Grimond: As it seems from what the Prime Minister said earlier that what the Lord Privy Seal said about the Common Market does not mean exactly what I think it meant, may we have a debate, so that the Government's intentions about the Common Market can be explained?
Mr. Butler: I think that the Prime Minister made the situation quite clear. I can only undertake to consider what the hon. Gentleman has said.
Mr. Wigg: Would the Leader of the House be good enough to look again in the precedents governing debates on the Service Estimates? I think that he will find that two years ago there were two-hour suspensions for both the Navy and the Air Force debates and unlimited suspension in the case of the Army.
Whilst it would not be reasonable, in the present state of business of the House, to have an open suspension for the Army Estimates this year, in view of the large numbers on both sides of the House who want to speak would he not consider giving us an extra hour on Tuesday night and, in future years, be prepared to consider the very special position of the Army in view of the rights that the House has given up in revising its ancient procedure?
Mr. Butler: The hon. Member's point is put in perfectly reasonable terms, but I must adhere to what we said about a two-hour suspension. I will investigate the precedents to which the hon. Gentleman draws attention, and perhaps he will have a talk with me on the subject.
Mr. G. Thomas: In view of the very restricted discussion we were able to have yesterday under the Ten Minute Rule on the question of leasehold, will the Leader of the House give further consideration to the Motion on Leasehold Reform in South Wales. which is of major importance in the Principality, and give us a day on which both his hon. Friends and mine can put their points of view?
[That this House, noting with deep disquiet the cruel exploitation of leaseholders in South Wales by finance corporations and ground landlords who are demanding excessive premiums before renewing leases for a period of 80 years, calls upon Her Majesty's Government to repeal the Act of 1954 dealing with the leasehold system and to introduce a measure grant-
1760
ing to leaseholders the right to purchase their freehold at a fair and reasonable cost.]
Mr. Butler: I have very few days to spare.
Mr. Thorpe: Can we know the right hon. Gentleman's intentions with regard to the Motion on Northern Rhodesia, signed by 99 of his colleagues? Is he aware that despite the excellent speech made by the Colonial Secretary last week, only 12 hon. Members on the Conservative side have so far withdrawn their names from that Motion? Is it intended that time will not be given, so as to keep quiet the somewhat more violent members of his party, or is it intended that time shall be given so that the Colonial Secretary can learn that he has support in some quarters of the House, particularly on this side, if not on the other?
[That this House calls on Her Majesty's Government in considering the constitutional future of Northern Rhodesia to maintain the basis of non-racial representation, laid down by Her Majesty's Government in 1958, within the Federation of Rhodesia and Nyasaland.]
Mr. Butler: I am not aware that I have had particular pressure put on me to find time.
Mr. V. Yates: To return to the question of time for the Army Estimates, will the Leader of the House look at the precedents again? He has been talking about recent precedents, but it is an age-old custom of the House to have unlimited time to consider Estimates. Whatever may be said about limiting the time for debate on other Estimates, there can be no justification for limiting these debates as they have been limited in the last two or three years. Even if the right hon. Gentleman is not prepared to give an unlimited amount of time, surely it cannot be said that an extra two hours gives sufficient time for the discussion of this subject. I appeal to the Leader of the House to consider the feeling that there is on this matter.
Mr. Butler: In 1955, by general agreement, there was a limited suspension. In 1956-57, there was no suspension. It was done by agreement. I am perfectly ready to discuss the subject with the hon. Member as well as with the hon. Member

1761
for Dudley (Mr. Wigg), but I think that this year we had better stick to this plan.
Mr. Rankin: The right hon. Gentleman has already promised the Scottish Standing Committee a debate on the Guest Report. Has he anything further to say about this promise?
Mr. Butler: No, Sir, not today.
Mr. J. Wells: Will my right hon. Friend reconsider his announcement last week concerning the Motion on decimal coinage, in view of the fact that about 40 additional names have been put to that Motion in the last week?
[That this House calls attention to the need for decimal coinage, recognises the increasing and once-for-all cost of the change, notes the number of Commonwealth countries which have changed. or are changing, believes it to be a practical business decision, and urges Her Majesty's Government to introduce a decimal system of coinage at an early date.]
Mr. Butler: It might be a rather restful subject to discuss, but I do not see the chance at the moment.
Mr. Gaitskell: Further to the question asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Dudley (Mr. Wigg), would the right hon. Gentleman confirm that, whatever may have happened in the past, there was no agreement whatever this year as to the length of the debates on the Army and other Service Estimates?
Mr. Butler: I do confirm that, of course. The decision was the responsibility of Her Majesty's Government.
Mr. Rankin: May I again remind the right hon. Gentleman of his promise about a debate on the Guest Report? Does he enter into promises as lightly as he dismisses them?
Mr. Butler: No, Sir, not as a usual practice.

PERSONAL STATEMENT
The Prime Minister (Mr. Harold Macmillan): With your permission, Mr. Speaker, and that of the House, I wish to make a short personal statement.
On 28th February, in answer to a Question from the hon. Member for Eton and Slough (Mr. Brockway), I
1762
explained that the Royal Marine Band undertook both public and private engagements while in Cape Town. The public engagement was a concert given in the open air, at which members of all races formed the audience. The private engagement, which, in accordance with longstanding custom, military and marine bands accept on commercial terms, was at the invitation of the Cape Town Branch of the Royal Naval Association.
I informed the House that this meeting was confined to members. I have since heard that tickets were, in fact, sold to the general public. The cinema management, acting in accordance with local regulations, confined admission to members of the European races.
I apologise, Mr. Speaker, for my mistake.

CONGO (SITUATION)
Mr. Fell: Mr. Speaker, I beg to ask your leave, and that of the House, to move the Adjournment of the House under Standing Order No. 9 on a definite matter of urgent public importance, namely,
the massacre in Luluabourg yesterday and the rapidly deteriorating situation in the Congo which threatens the lives of British subjects in the Congo and the security of Northern Rhodesia.
I will not take more than a moment or two to explain to the House why I believe that this may come under the headings of "definite", "urgent", and of "public importance". In the first place, it is definite. One is always in the difficulty of getting complete corroboration of reports, but the news appears on the tape, and, since the appearance of that message on the tape, the Press has reported a statement of the United Nations concerning the appeal of a thousand citizens of Luluabourg for protection by the United Nations.
Secondly, it seems to me to come well within the heading of urgency when British subjects—Europeans and Africans—stand in suddenly accentuated danger of their lives; when priests have been massacred; when nuns have been raped; when all manner of people are in suddenly accentuated danger of their

1763
lives; and when British subjects are also facing the threat, accentuated by this latest massacre, of a sudden explosion in the whole of the Congo. resulting in a blood bath.
There is the question of public importance. It seems to me that it is always of public importance in this country when the lives and property of any British subject are in danger. In this case, it is not just one life, it is not just the lives of British citizens in the immediate area of the Congo, but the lives of British citizens—Europeans and many others—in Northern Rhodesia.
That being so, I feel, Mr. Speaker, that in all the circumstances, having waited this long for real action to abate this blood bath in the Congo, it is time that we considered the matter as one of the greatest urgency.
Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member asks leave to move the Adjournment of the House pursuant to Standing Order No. 9 to discuss a definite matter of urgent public importance, namely,
the massacre at Luluabourg yesterday and the rapidly deteriorating situation in the Congo which threatens the lives of British subjects in the Congo and the security of Northern Rhodesia.
I regret that I do not think that I can, consistently with the rules governing these matters, accede to the hon. Member's application.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

  SUPPLY
  [6TH ALLOTTED DAY]
  Considered in Committee.
  [Sir GORDON TOUCHE in the Chair]

NAVY ESTIMATES, 1961–62

  VOTE A. NUMBERS
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  That 100,000 Officers, Seamen and Juniors and Royal Marines, who are borne on the books of Her Majesty's Ships and at the Royal Marine establishments, and members of the Women's Royal Naval Service and Queen Alexandra's Royal Naval Nursing Service, be employed for the Sea Service, for the year ending on the 31st day of March. 1962.
  3.55 p.m.
  The Civil Lord of the Admiralty (Mr. C. Ian Orr-Ewing): Many of my predecessors' speeches, and, indeed, some of my own, at this Box have started by explaining why a Supplementary Estimate has been necessary. I remind the Committee that last year it was necessary to take a token Supplementary Estimate of £10 only. I am pleased to say that for the current financial year, no Supplementary Estimate has been asked for. I would be the last to claim that our ability to do without a Supplementary Estimate for two years running is evidence that our control and estimating machinery over the whole field of naval expenditure is perfect. There is always room for errors in estimating when dealing with expenditure of this magnitude. When one remembers that a ·25 per cent. variation will produce a difference of £1 million in the overall expenditure, the Committee will realise how accurate we have to be.
  The rate of production may fluctuate, and it is specially difficult to predict the exact flow of receipts from other Governments, who, no doubt, have their own financial problems. This year, £24 million of the year's Appropriations in Aid come from these sources. But we are continuing to do our best to get our estimating and our control as accurate as possible.
  Speaking of control of expenditure, the Committee may like to know that last

  1765
  year we added to our normal measures the experiment of the Finance Committee of the Admiralty, of which I am the Chairman, examining expenditure on specific services, rather like an internal Select Committee. The cost of many of these services is divided between a number of Navy Votes and is, therefore, not readily identifiable. We felt that it would be useful to pick out and examine certain subjects throughout the Votes and I think that we shall find this procedure most profitable.
  For the next financial year, the gross provision on all Votes is estimated at just under £468 million. Receipts are expected to amount to over £54½ million and so our net estimates come to just over £413 million. This is about £15½ million more than in the current year, but this increase is entirely explained by agreed wages and salary awards and by estimated price increases. The Committee may be interested to note that about half the money we are asking for is devoted to research, development and production; the greater part of the remainder goes on the cost of naval and civilian personnel.
  Spending on the material side remains at a high level. Page 4 of 'the Estimates shows that the gross estimate of what we shall be spending under Vote 8, Section on contract work—that is to say, on ships and aircraft—is nearly £110 million in the coming year. The estimated expenditure on other equipment under Vote 8, Section II (naval stores generally) and Vote 9 (naval armament stores, including guided weapons) has increased substantially. Our total production expenditure, therefore, is rather bigger than last year.
  These are the hard facts of the Estimates. This is the fifth year I have spoken at this Box in Service Estimates debates and the third in which I have introduced the Navy Estimates. This year, I am not, therefore, going to comment on all the Navy's ships and weapons, as these are set out more fully than usual in my noble friend's Explanatory Statement.
  Later, I will, of course, pick out a few of the highlights. I want to begin by showing the philosophy which lies behind our naval policy. I hope that the Committee will then see how the
  1766
  shape of the Navy fits in with the rôle envisaged for it on page I of the Explanatory Statement. What has been happening in the past year is a continuing process of evolution towards the kind of Navy which we believe to be necessary for the task which it is expected to perform, in co-operation with our allies. I underline "in cooperation with our allies".
  The main reasons which led to the reorientation of the Government's defence policy four years ago were, first, the recognition that this country's front line of defence in the long haul of the cold war was the maintenance of the economy and the strength of sterling; secondly, the knowledge that in any major war we should not be alone, but that we should be acting in concert with the Western Alliance; and finally, the steady and rapid growth of independent status in former Colonial Territories, with its effect on the policy of maintaining large fixed garrisons and bases overseas.
  These three considerations played a large part in the decision to rely on smaller all-Regular forces. But this decision carried with it the need for our smaller forces to be better equipped and more fully mobile if they were to continue to safeguard our world-wide interests.
  Mobility is one of the prime virtues of a navy, and against the changing political background today it is clearly more than ever important. Mobility implies more than just having the physical means of deploying forces from one end of the world to the other; it is the ability to do so in spite of the political restrictions and in spite of inhibitions that can stand in the way. It is to the Navy's advantage that there will always be the broad highway of open sea which the Navy can expect to use without let or hindrance.
  This mobility, together with the ability of ships to operate for long periods away from fixed bases, will enable the Navy to play a large variety of roles in the defence of this country's interests. Operations depend nowadays more and more for their success on the closest collaboration between our three Services. It becomes increasingly necessary in the more distant parts of the world for the

  1767
  Navy to play a leading rôle in support of land forces. The Royal Navy and the Royal Air Force are partners in the deployment world-wide of British air power.
  I turn now to the Fleet and the extent to which it is hard worked. The increased emphasis on inter-Service operations and the Navy's part in them is being superimposed on the Navy's traditional tasks, such as the protection of sea communications. There is no lessening of those old and traditional tasks. The Russian submarine fleet continues to grow more powerful and more efficient and to extend its areas of operation, and other nations are not only building up their naval power generally. For these two reason there can be no lessening of our traditional tasks.
  Nor do the Navy's peace-time commitments and activities grow any less. The strength and cohesion of forces at the disposal of an alliance depend very largely on the frequency and thoroughness of their exercises together. The extent of these exercises is set out in detail in Appendix I of my noble Friend's Explanatory Statement. They take up more and more of our peace-time effort. There is, too, the constant requirement for routine training in all the different aspects of naval warfare.
  There is the constant demand from our diplomatic representatives abroad that the Navy should pay visits to various places as a positive sign of the British presence and of British interest in those areas. There are no better ambassadors than our sailors when they go ashore.
  With all these commitments, the ships of the Navy are nowadays very hard worked in peace time. Every class of ship spends a far higher proportion of its time at sea than comparable vessels did immediately before the war, and in some cases the difference is most marked. For example, the carriers and submarines now steam three or four times as many miles in a year than they did before the war.
  The day before yesterday, H.M.S. "Ark Royal" came back from a commission, mainly in the Mediterranean, of fifteen months' duration. During that period, she steamed 80,000 miles and launched no fewer than 8,500 sorties—an this in fifteen months. This is a measure
  1768
  of the way in which we are now working our ships. Bearing in mind the very much heavier maintenance which they require, I think that these statistics reflect great credit on their crews and all concerned with their running and operation. But we would like to get still more sea time out of our ships by improving our maintenance methods, and we are examining all means of doing so.
  In accordance with the philosophy which I mentioned earlier, in 1957 the Navy embarked on a plan designed to produce a Fleet somewhat smaller—as the White Paper shows, there are now 144 ships in the operational Fleet, compared with 167 four years ago—but the new Navy was to be fitted with the most up-to-date equipment and weapons. In so far as there was a choice between quantity and quality, we chose the latter. The past year has seen a further instalment of that plan. Now, thanks to the Navy's mobility and the increased effectiveness of individual ships, we are able to concentrate a powerful force wherever it may be needed. This was well brought out in the N.A.T.O. exercise "Fallex". details of which are given in Appendix I of my noble Friend's Explanatory Statement, when we concentrated no less than 100 ships of the Royal Navy for a single exercise.
  I now turn from mobility to versatility. In order to match with this modern fleet the wide range of threats which can be levelled against us, we are going over from the concept of single-purpose ships to one of versatility. For example, the frigate programme of ten years ago comprised a number of vessels whose primary task was either the antisubmarine, anti-aircraft or the aircraft direction Nile. The new design "Tribal" and "Leander" classes are examples of extremely useful ships which can undertake all three of these roles. They are more expensive for that reason, but they are also far more versatile and far more valuable. As opportunity occurs, we are building into many of the older frigates a high degree of versatility during the course of their refits.
  We are thus producing a balanced fleet which can undertake the tasks demanded of the Royal Navy. And the Navy is ready to meet new challenges as well. Most hon. Members present tonight have taken a special interest in

  1769
  defence matters for some time. They will have noticed the growing emphasis in recent years on the amphibious capability of the Navy. First, we had one Commando carrier, the "Bulwark". The concept was so successful that the conversion of another, the "Albion", was ordered. Then came the decision not only to have the "Albion", but to commission her. Simultaneously, we have decided to build an assault ship, which I shall have more to say about later.
  The seaborne method of bringing force to bear has the great merit that it can be achieved without exacerbating local feelings by any obvious display of force on their territories. At a time when we are likely to be able to depend less on bases abroad, a self-contained force of this kind is very valuable. The Commando carrier is capable of putting its Commando down inland by day or night in a remarkably short time. It has been aptly described as a kind of mobile fire brigade.
  The commissioning of the second Commando carrier will make an increased demand on the Royal Marine Commandos. We plan to start forming a fifth Commando before the end of this year. We are also looking into the possibility of enlarging the Commandos and increasing their hitting power. An interesting idea which is at present being discussed with the War Office concerns the association of a regiment of the Royal Artillery with the Commandos. The regiment, with the new 105 mm. gun, would train with the Royal Marines and would be based at home and abroad in close proximity to the Commandos. A battery would normally be embarked in the Commando carriers. This is a good example of the extent to which a well-armed integrated force can be achieved by close co-operation with our sister services.
  I now turn to the question of submarines and the submarine threat. So far, I have sought to outline our tasks and explain how we have gradually reshaped the Navy to undertake its old and new roles. I have stressed its mobility, its versatility and its growing amphibious strength, and I want now to turn to anti-submarine tasks, to explain why there is continued emphasis this year on our anti-submarine forces.
  1770
  The Committee will see from 'the Explanatory Statement that we have 19 frigates approved or under construction. I am sure that the Committee will be pleased that this is the largest number for five years. It was in 1949 that the Soviet Union launched its post-war submarine 'building programme. This came to fruition by the mid-1950s, when the total number of submarines of all sorts reached 430. Since that time, we believe that the Russian fleet has remained substantially the same in numbers though, of course, new and improved submarines have taken the place of older types.
  During recent years, it is clear from reports that the Soviet submarine fleets have been widening their operational experience by operating throughout the seven seas. Just as we have been improving the design and techniques of conventional submarines, one must suppose that they have been doing exactly the same.
  While the Soviet Union has been carrying on with its own submarine development, it has also done three further things. First, it 'has based a portion of its submarine fleet in other people's territory—in Albania, where it has built up its strength to a flotilla of 12 submarines, supported by two modern depot ships and auxiliaries. Secondly, it has made its submarines available to other nations—nine to the United Arab Republic and two to Indonesia. Thirdly, it has provided assistance 'to the Chinese submarine building programme, and the strength of the Chinese fleet has been increasing and is now 30 submarines.
  During the last six months Mr. Khrushchev has stated that the Soviet Union now has nuclear-powered submarines. This is well within its capabilities, and we have no reason to doubt this statement.
  Hitler started the last war with approximately 50 submarines, and when we remember the problem which 'these caused, the Committee will understand why the British, the Commonwealth and N.A.T.O. Navies have devoted so much research, development and production effort to anti-submarine capabilities. In this context, it is worth remembering that in the 18 conflicts, conventional and subversive, which have occurred since 1945, the attractions of war by proxy have become self-evident. It is these

  1771
  facts which explain why, in so many of the exercises with our allies, the antisubmarine aspect looms so large.
  For anti-submarine warfare we are making use of different techniques. There is the shore-based maritime aircraft. There is the helicopter, with its asdics and homing torpedoes. There are the surface ships—the new frigates or new guided-missile destroyers—and there is the submarine itself. It is the growing importance of the submarine as a weapon for anti-submarine warfare which I want to underline.
  Now I turn to new ships, aircraft and equipment. I want to pick out some of the highlights and some of the subjects in which the Committee has shown special interest, sometimes by debate, sometimes by Questions. It would be right for me to begin with H.M.S. "Dreadnought", since she will provide the fleet with an anti-submarine weapon of an entirely new order of efficiency.
  H.M.S. "Dreadnought" will be equipped with long-range asdics and the latest homing torpedoes, and her high underwater speed and long endurance will make her very formidable as a hunter and killer. She will be able to operate either independently or in support of the escort screen for a surface task force or a convoy. Work on the "Dreadnought" is up to programme, and an order has been placed for a second vessel, this time powered largely by British machinery.
  Next I come to guided missile destroyers. Building of the first four guided missile destroyers is also going ahead. The second of these ships—the "Hampshire"—will be launched by Her Royal Highness, Princess Margaret on 16th March. The next two ships, to be named "Kent" and "London", will be launched later in the year. Keeping pace with progress on these ships are the production and trials of their powerful, medium-range anti-aircraft armament, the Sea Slug system, which will provide protection for other ships in company with any of the county class.
  These missiles have been proving so accurate in trials that we have had to modify them to prevent them from hitting and destroying our very valuable targets. Sea trials of the close-range guided missile system Sea Cat have also been progressing during the past year.
  1772
  I am glad to say that orders for this system have been received from Sweden and that several other countries are either negotiating or taking an interest in this weapon.
  The county class is another example of the versatility of which I have been speaking. When the first ship, the "Devonshire", comes into service early next year, she will not only have a first-class guided weapon defence system, but will also carry a helicopter, and will be well equipped for anti-submarine service, for gunnery, and for general police and cold war duties. That is a truly versatile ship and class.
  The fifth and sixth ships of this class are to be ordered in the coming year. Further developments will make it possible to produce a version of Sea Slug which will be still more effective than the Mark I system. The Mark II weapon will have greater range, greater height, and a more powerful high explosive warhead. It will be fitted in these two latest ships of the class, and we plan that the first four will later be modified to take the Mark II version.
  The two latest ships of the county class, and as many as possible of our new ships in future, will be ordered by competitive tendering. We recently resumed this system with the orders for three "Leander" class frigates, and we were well satisfied with the tremendous response. As a result, we hope to build our ships not only more cheaply, but also more quickly.
  The past year has seen good progress with the re-equipment of the Fleet Air Arm. The front line strength of "Sea Vixen" fighters has now been built up to full establishment. These aircraft, as well as the new "Buccaneer"—of which the first development squadron will be formed next week—have a good stretch of potential, and should give first-class service for many years.
  It must be remembered that it is not just the speed of the aircraft which counts in modern air warfare, but the general effectiveness of the combination of the aircraft, its missile, and the detection, control and guidance system in the carrier. For instance, one could have an old aircraft with a very good air-to-air missile which would be quite as effective as a new aircraft with an indifferent missile. It is a concept of a

  1773
  whole weapon system that goes from detection right through the spectrum until the missile is fired.
  I would like to say something about development at the carrier end of the system. We have plans in hand to make the best operational use of the mass of information which will be derived from the latest generation of radars and asdics. No longer can the human brain assimilate and assess all the information available. Nor can the human brain weigh the chances, calculate the threat and decide which particular weapon ought to be used against which particular threat.
  Therefore, we have had to develop electronic computers. The first application of these will be in the carrier "Eagle", which is now being modernised. This equipment will be known as Action Data Automation. It will track and classify targets automatically. It will store and display this information, and will calculate and recommend solutions. It will prepare and accept information for automatic exchange between other ships in its own or adjacent task forces.
  The system is so flexible that it is comparatively simple to reprogramme it to meet changes in weapons and weapon policy. The system will have applications to a wide variety of future ships and weapons. Further research and development work is being done.
  Mr. R. T. Paget: Did the hon. Gentleman say that this system is simple?
  Mr. Orr-Ewing: If I did, I gave an erroneous impression to the Committee. It certainly is not simple. It is a highly complex system. It is something that we have had to come to because of the vastly improved radar with which we are now equipped. If we are to make the optimum use of 984 and C.D.S. we have to have electronic computers to advise us and convey all the data.
  Another revolutionary development to which I want to refer is the Ground Effect Machine, or Hovercraft. We are keeping in close touch with developments here, because we foresee some important naval applications of the principle as soon as the hover height can be increased sufficiently to allow the craft to be operated in a greater variety of sea conditions.
  1774
  For example, the ability of the Hovercraft to operate equally well over land and water makes it attractive for amphibious warfare and ferrying duties. It might also be used for coastal forces, for air-sea rescue work, and, possibly, for mine bunting. There is even a hope that it might be developed into a useful anti-submarine weapon. All three Services are interested in it, but in view of its apparently wider marine application the Admiralty is co-ordinating its initial development for Service use.
  Mr. John Rankin: A year ago we had difficulty in defining what a Hovercraft was. A Cabinet Minister could not define it. Are we to conclude, from the fact that it is now incorporated in the Navy Estimates, that it has been decided at last that a Hovercraft is a ship?
  Mr. Orr-Ewing: I should hesitate to start a theoretical discussion with the hon. Gentleman about exactly what it is —ship or aircraft. The point is that the Admiralty is to be responsible at the moment for its development. That is what is important. Let us decide who is to have the responsibility and let that Service get on with is. That is much more important than deciding how we should define it.
  I now turn to the assault ship. I think that the Committee would like to have a little more information about our decision to build a new assault ship, which we plan to order this year. This ship, with the Commando carriers, will eventually replace the present amphibious warfare squadron. The object of this ship is to carry a balanced military force; some hundreds of infantry with a high proportion of tanks, guns and transport. The assault ship will carry an armoured battle group as complement to the light forces landed by parachute and helicopter. It will work on the principle of a floating dock and will carry her own landing craft, the L.C.M.'s, which will be able to float in and out through the stern.
  Its great advantage over the present squadron will be its speed, which, in practice, will be two or three times the speed of the old squadron. Its other great advantage will be its ability to remain at sea for long periods. To match this, we have a programme for building landing craft assault to operate from the assault ship which should be completed during

  1775
  1961–62. In addition, we hope to order a new type of landing craft mechanised, the design work on which is now under way. The assault ship will have the latest communication facilities and be able to carry a brigade headquarters. It will have facilities on its flight deck. which is over the dock, to land, refuel and launch helicopters.
  In addition, hon. Members will have read of the War Office plan to start replacing with faster ships the L.S.T.'s which come under its jurisdiction. These L.S.T.'s are, of course, a part of the follow-up. They are, so to speak, the third line, the first being the Commando carrier, the second being the assault ships and the third being the Army L.S.T.'s.
  Mr. E. G. Willis (Edinburgh, East): When did the hon. Gentleman say that we would begin these?
  Mr. Orr-Ewing: I have mentioned a number of different things. The assault ship itself should be completed by the mid-1960s, and, I would hope, earlier than the mid-1960s.
  Mr. Paget: Does the assault ship differ very materially from the American Thomaston class landing craft dock?
  Mr. Orr-Ewing: No, not very materially. We have been in close touch with the Americans. We have a rather later design. We have made one or two improvements, which will particularly suit our needs, which are not in the Thomaston class. It is basically a similar design.
  Looking still further ahead, I should like to dwell for a moment on one or two major naval issues about which hon. Members have recently expressed some anxiety. I have been asked whether we were thinking about replacing our aircraft carriers. My hon. Friend's Explanatory Statement does not say a great deal about this, for the simple reason that the ships we have are either new or modernised. None of the present ships will begin to come to the end of its life for about another ten years. However, new carriers take a long time to build, and it is not too early to begin to consider the design of the ships that will have to be built to serve as replacements in the 1970s.
  1776
  If the deployment of sea and air power, including support of the Army abroad, is to continue to be one of the tasks of the Navy, carriers will be an absolute necessity. A good deal of thought, therefore, is already being put into design studies for a suitable replacement, but the problems are extraordinarily complex, not least because the ships must be so planned that they can still operate the kind of aircraft that may be flying as far ahead as the 1990s. Hon. Members will not expect me to go into details of the planning that is being done to meet requirements that are so far distant, but I want to reassure the Committee that we are tackling this problem with zest.
  I now turn to another subject—and I hope to raise less heat today than in the past—the Polaris. I have been asked what the Navy is doing and whether it is likely to operate Polaris submarines. It is the policy of Her Majesty's Government that the British contribution to the Western deterrent shall be carried during the 1960s by the V-bomber force. I think that this was made clear in the two-day defence debate and that it is not necessary to make up our minds yet about the means of delivery which is to succeed this force.
  But we are in close touch with the United States Navy about the Polaris missile and missile-carrying submarines. We are continuing, with their co-operation, to receive all the necessary information that will enable the Navy, subject to American agreement, to have submarines of this type if it became Her Majesty's Government's policy.
  Mr. Willis: The hon. Gentleman will recollect that the Minister of Defence, during the debate on the Defence Estimates, said that there was also the option of the use of the Buccaneer for this purpose. Can he say whether the Admiralty thinks this, too?
  Mr. Orr-Ewing: Yes. I certainly have stated that the Buccaneer has a nuclear capability, and that, with its low flying strength, it will be able to get underneath a radar network. It is certainly a factor that must be taken into account.
  I now turn to naval manpower. I have spent some time describing the rôle of the Navy, and telling the Committee

  1777
  something of the new ships and equipment which we are bringing into service. But the best plans in the world, and the most modern ships and equipment, mean absolutely nothing unless the fleet is manned by the right numbers, and the right sorts, of officers and ratings. All our efforts in the sphere of naval manpower, whether by way of recruiting and training, or by the settlement of rates of pay or other conditions of service, are designed to this end.
  The Committee will have read in the Explanatory Statement that we hope to get about 7,500 recruits in the coming year. This is a target figure. If more good boys come forward we may take marginally more. Perhaps a few less. This figure is 1,000 more than we recruited in 1960–61, but it is less than the 8,200 that we recruited in 1958–59. I see no reason why it should not be reached.
  The Royal Navy is not lacking, and I doubt whether it has ever lacked, applicants. Nearly 15,000 applied to join in 1960. Of these, we were only able to take a few over 5,000. Thus, nearly 10.000 fell by the wayside. I find that nearly 4,000 of these, 27 per cent. of the applicants, were rejected on educational grounds. The next largest slice, over 2,000, 15 per cent. of the total, are rejected on medical grounds. We have looked at this very carefully and I do not honestly think that we can possibly lower our standards. We give everybody a thorough training, but it would be a great waste of training effort and would hold back the good boys if we enlarged our intake to accept the intellectually weaker brethren.
  Lieut.-Commander S. L. C. Maydon: Can my hon. Friend say which was the greater proportion of those rejected on medical grounds—eyesight or other physical reasons?
  Mr. Orr-Ewing: I have not the figures with me. I will give them in my winding-up speech.
  We have recently examined the eyesight standards to see whether we can relax in certain spheres and, in fact, we have relaxed in certain trades. We are always considering Whether we can utilise our knowledge of the latest medical techniques and change our standards. I do not think that there is at the moment room for further manœuvre,
  1778
  either in academic or medical standards. Of course, the standards vary for different branches. We ask a high educational standard of the artificer apprentice, who is to become a skilled rating and who will quickly rise to petty officer and chief petty officer. Having looked at this matter fairly closely, I do not honestly think that we can change at the moment. We are reasonably optimistic that we shall reach our target in the coming year, partly because of the attraction which the Navy offers to young people and partly 'because there are more coming out of the schools.
  As the Committee knows, we have decided to recruit more Juniors "U", that is, young men and boys between the ages of 15 and 161. This entry, which was originally for seamen, has been extended to the technical branches with great success, and we are now extending it to include cooks and stores ratings. In the coming year we shall take as many of these young entrants as we can find room for at H.M.S. "Ganges" and H.M.S. "St. Vincent", the two establishments Which train them. I have visited both these schools, and I came away tremendously impressed by the way in which they combine the essentials of naval training and the continuation of the boys' general education.
  I am glad to say that from time to time we receive most touching letters from parents who appreciate what we are able to do for their boys. I came across one only this week in which a mother wrote:
  "Our son was very happy with you, as you all have done a tremendous job training all these boys. My husband and I thoroughly enjoyed our two visits."
  Another mother wrote:
  "I would like to say a very big thank you to all those who have had the training of "
  my son.
  I really do appreciate all that he has had done for him. I am feeling very proud of him, especially as he has not had a father to guide him."
  These are the sort of letters that we get and they show the standard of our young people. They are very worthy citizens who will be a joy to the Navy, and if they ever leave us, which I hope they will not, they will be a great asset to Britain in general.
  I now turn to the recruiting organisation. I am convinced that young men of the right type will be available in the

  1779
  coming years. First, we have to make certain that we attract them to the Royal Navy, and, secondly, we have to make absolutely sure that, if they report at our recruiting offices, they are dealt with wisely, in a kindly manner and efficiently. During the next year we are having a survey undertaken to examine a number of aspects of our recruiting organisation. It is immensely encouraging that once people have some experience of the Navy they seem to like it. This is well borne out by the fact that 65 per cent. of our twelve-year men sign on for pension.
  I now come to officers. I am very hopeful that the new methods of training and entry for the General List officers will be a success. In 1960–61, 192 young men entered as cadets, 59 of them under the scholarship scheme. Of course. the number of applications was very much larger. One hundred and thirty-seven in the same year were given either scholarships or reserved cadetships for future entry. The cadets who go to Dartmouth this September will all have qualified by new entry standards based on the schools examination system instead of the Navy, Army and Air Force examinations.
  There are several reasons why our new academic standards are higher than the old. First, in the age of the nuclear submarine, the guided missile and the computer, we have to recognise that intellectual qualities are even more important than they have been in the past for all our officers.
  Secondly, by raising our standards we have been able to concentrate the academic instruction which takes place at Dartmouth into one year, apart from the more advanced training on which engineering officers will go. This, in turn, has made it possible for the young man to spend a year in the fleet in the rank of midshipman. This is surely the most effective way of training young naval officers and giving them an early opportunity of knowing the men whom later they must lead.
  Finally, we wanted to ensure that officers would fully retain the confidence of the ratings under them. After all, the ratings' own educational standards are now very much higher than they used to be before the war.
  While we look to the General List to produce most of the officers who will rise
  1780
  to the most responsible positions in the Service, there are other types of commission which I should mention as we attach great importance to them. First, I refer to the supplementary lists. Last summer, we introduced the Seaman Supplementary List. This is the equivalent of a short-service commission in the other two Services. It provides an attractive opportunity for young men who are not going to university to broaden their outlook and prepare for their future careers by a short period of service as officers in the Royal Navy. We do not ask for the same high academic standard as for the General List. For some of those who wish it, there will also be a chance of a permanent commission on this supplementary list and a few may get the opportunity to transfer to the General List. I recommend this to parents who do not propose sending their boys to university. It is a wonderful training for future life.
  The Air Crew Supplementary List also is growing in importance. The introduction of the Buccaneer, the commissioning of the second Commando carrier and the increasing number of ships which will in future carry helicopters for antisubmarine work all underline the opportunities which exist on this list. I can assure any young man who joins the Fleet Air Arm of an interesting and varied career. He can join for a commission of eight years with opportunities for a permanent commission and an avenue of promotion right to the top.
  There is also the Electrical Supplementary List, which gives professional electrical engineers the choice of serving from three to ten years or for a pensionable career if they wish. In this way the graduate engineer can join the Navy to gain practical electrical engineering experience in the fleet. Speaking from my own experience in industry, I believe that such men would be very welcome in many engineering enterprises as a result of the experience which they have gained.
  The end of National Service does not present the Navy with as many problems as the other two Services. We made much less use of it. But it throws up one or two problems for us. In particular, its disappearance means that we are no longer able to enter most of the medical and dental officers and instructor officers whom we need, because they

  1781
  came in for three years rather than doing their two years' National Service. This need must now be met entirely by a volunteer entry, and I very much hope that young professional men with the appropriate qualifications will come forward for short commissions in these branches. They will have the chance to exercise their professional skill and, at the same time, to enjoy all the variety and satisfaction of a naval career.
  I have spoken of the General List and of the different supplementary lists. The Committee will be aware that, in addition to these, the Navy draws a very appreciable proportion of its officers—about 30 per cent. at the moment—from among the ratings by means of the Special Duties List. The able young man who joins as a rating has, therefore, a very promising career open to him.
  I now turn from the cadet to the admiral—a rather large jump. During the debate on the Admiralty's headquarters, on 14th February, the hon. and learned Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget) gave some figures about the number of ships and admirals which were a little inaccurate. I intervened to point out that the number of admirals had been reduced and would be reduced still further. Let me give the facts. I hope that when they have been given this particular canard will be dropped.
  In 1957, there were 102 admirals. Today, we have 83. By 1963, we will have reduced this further to 72. Thus, in the last four years the number of admirals has been reduced by 19. In the next two or three years probably another 11 posts will be abolished and the operational fleet, now 144, is likely to be only marginally less. It is not generally realised how the Flag List is made up. Many people—perhaps not in this Committee—when they think of an admiral, imagine a bearded figure strutting the quarter deck. In a modern Navy this is seldom the case, although there are exceptions.
  Today, the Flag List is made up as follows. Fifty-nine are seamen and 17 non-seamen. That covers the electrical, engineering and supply admirals. In addition, there are five medical, one dental and one instructor.
  Mr. Rankin: A dental admiral?
  Mr. Orr-Ewing: Yes. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman agrees that in many spheres there must be the possibility of promotion to the top if the numbers wanted are to be recruited. I underline that we have electrical admirals, engineering admirals, medical admirals and supply admirals.
  Mr. Rankin: In view of the importance of feet in the Navy, why should not we have an orthopaedic admiral?
  Mr. W. A. Wilkins: Does the decline in the number of admirals foreshadow an influx of admirals into the House of Commons in the near future?
  Mr. Orr-Ewing: We have some very robust admirals in the House of Commons. I should not like to say what the future holds.
  Now that I have explained a little about the Flag List, it should be underlined that we have to ensure that all Britain's commitments are fully met. Four of this list will be entirely occupied with N.A.T.O. duties. Eleven of the operational posts carry N.A.T.O. responsibilities. I hope that this detailed break-down will help hon. Members to keep the subject in perspective.
  The slight change of emphasis in the Defence Estimates means that next year the Royal Navy's share of the defence budget will be slightly increased. Our share of 25 per cent. will be the highest we have had for fourteen years—that is, since 1947–48. Today, we have a Navy which is the second largest in the Western Alliance and which consists very largely of first-class modern warships. As my noble Friend's Explanatory Statement shows, we have completed no less than 58 warships—frigates or larger—in the last ten years, and at this moment nearly £200 million worth of orders are with industry. The building and maintenance of a first-class Navy cannot be done on the cheap. It is a sobering thought that one modern naval aircraft costs more than a destroyer in 1930.
  We have, and shall continue to have, a world-wide Navy, ready to defend and to advance the nation's interests, ready to meet the emergencies of peace and war, and ready to play its full part in the preservation of the free world.
  4.42 p.m.
  Mr. R. T. Paget: This debate was opened, a always, with great charm by the hon. Member the Civil Lord. I felt, on this occasion, that his task was not made any easier by the observations of quite staggering smugness from the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Defence at the conclusion of the defence debate this week. The hon. Member has done his best to give the impression that all is well with the Navy. I speak very much from the heart to say that I wish I shared that belief.
  The Civil Lord concluded with a reference to something which I had said about admirals. Since the war, the Fleet has been reduced to rather less than one-fifth what it was then, and the number of admirals has come down from 100 to roughly 80. With the present operational Fleet one has to include minesweepers before one can say that there are more ships than admirals. Even when one includes destroyers, frigates and submarines, which are nothing like captains' commands, the admirals still outnumber ships.
  I do not believe—and I shall be saying more of this later—that this is a healthy state of affairs. The hon. Member began by saying that he would speak of the philosophy of the Navy towards a task conceived in co-operation with our allies. I wish I could believe in the reality of that. Although I am a very nervous newcomer to this place in the debate, I have, ever since the war, participated in this debate, which concerns my Service, and I have tried to plead for the idea that one must have a purpose, that one must have an idea; not just a box of tricks but something which was conceived for a task and which has been thought out. I wish I had the feeling that that had been done.
  I return to the question which was asked by my right hon. Friend the Member for Belper (Mr. G. Brown) at the conclusion of the Navy Estimates debate last year: for what sort of a war are we preparing? Traditionally, we have been talking about three sorts of war—the hot war, the cold war and peaceful co-existence. It is the various forms of war that I want 'to discuss. As I understand it, the hot war is war with the Russians. China has crept into the defence statement and I am rather glad it has not
  1784
  appeared in the Navy statement yet. So far as China is concerned, I am reminded of what a Turkish friend of mine said to me after making some very appreciative remarks on the capacity of the Chinese Army, which he had met in Korea. He said:
  "…and do you realise that the only thing between us and them is the Russians, and there are not enough Russians?"
  On a long view that may be true. The time may come when in the House of Commons we shall be discussing how to help support our Russian allies in the naval sphere. That has not come yet. In terms of the hot war we have to consider Russia as the potential enemy. Hong Kong and Macao—which is held by our ally, Portugal—are held because it is convenient to the Chinese that those windows should he there. They cannot be held on any other terms. That should be realised. Indeed, the only power which has any capacity to intervene in the event of a threat here—the United States—should not be encouraged to do so, because the disaster to the people who lived in those ports as well as to the innocent Chinese elsewhere, would be too great. Of course, if the United States did intervene there would be a surplus of naval capacity without us.
  So, here we are dealing with the Russian threat, and simply with the Russian threat. That is what we must keep our eye on. What is our rôle here? As I understand it, the operative part of our Fleet immediately comes under the command of SACLANT. SACLANT has no ships under its command until a war breaks out, and then our fleet comes under its command in Norfolk, Virgina, as part of N.A.T.O.?
  What is the policy of SACLANT? The latest statement I have is:
  "First, to strike with maximum atomic capacity the enemy airfields and naval bases which support forces which would seize control of the seas."
  I do not know whether that is still the policy, but we should particularly note the word "First". If we were to do that I cannot conceive that the Russians would not retaliate. If the Russians did retaliate our rôle in the war would be over. This island—and I think that this has been accepted for a very long time—could not survive an atomic bombardment and emerge as a Power

  1785
  capable of waging war. In that sort of war there would be only one task for the Navy, and that would be to "get the hell out of it" to somewhere where it might survive, because it could not survive here.
  At any rate, looking at the measures of atomic power now available to both the great contestants, as I can calculate them, if about two-thirds of 1 per cent. of the first American strike got home, every city in Russia of the size of Guildford would have disappeared and more than half the Russians would be dead. Since everybody seems to agree that, whilst Russian power is inferior to that of America, it is not so much inferior, I do not know what would happen to us. I hope that the Civil Lord will be able to tell us that this is no longer the policy of SACLANT.
  The other aspect, and this is apparently what comes second because SACLANT's directive says "secondly", is to protect the broad Atlantic as far forward as possible. I understand that this visualises submarine warfare conducted on conventional lines. I wonder whether this is really a serious possibility. I do not, of course, expect the Minister either to contradict or confirm this. We can give estimates of figures which it would be embarrasing for him to give, but these are all published figures, though with what degree of authority I cannot say. As far as one can make out, there are about 28 Russian cruisers and about 300 ocean-going Russian submarines. There are probably three Russian atomic submarines either in commission or commissioning and a further three building. The Russians have also developed the canal system which links the White Sea and the Black Sea and their submarine bases are very far inland and difficult to get at.
  This is the sort of size of the threat which we have to look at. Since the war, I am told, the asdic and depth-charge mortar have improved and probably the best assessment is that if one finds the submarine one's chances of killing it today are rather better than they were. There has been a shift in favour of defence in that sense. On the other hand, most of the submarines we destroyed in the last war were destroyed on the surface, and these submarines do not have to
  1786
  surface. They have the snorkel. They are far more difficult to find than they were in the last war and, therefore, this is a shift to the offensive for submarines.
  Finally, and perhaps most important, their endurance is very much greater. Taking that endurance factor into consideration, the threat which we have to meet is probably not much less than ten times that which we had to face from the Germans at the beginning of the last war. Then we come to the atomic submarine. It is perfectly true that the atomic submarine is extremely noisy when travelling at speed; but laying off with an atomic missile, the submarine does not have to go at speed. At the point where an atomic submarine attacks another submarine—and it is said that only an atomic submarine is an effective weapon against an atomic submarine—the hunter has to use his asdic.
  That has much greater range today than when I used it in the last war. It must be all the more difficult to identify one's contact. That was always a job. One got one's contact and it might be a fish, bubbles, debris, or something on the bottom of the sea. The problem was always to identify the contact and that, I believe, will always be a matter of art rather than of science.
  The more range one has the greater variety and number of echoes one receives from different objects. While one is identifying one's contact the other chap has no difficulty whatever in identifying one's "ping". He gets that at once. I should be very surprised if there is no torpedo that homes at once on a "ping". It seems to me, therefore, that the hunted side will have a tremendous chance of getting in the first shot and that only one shot will be needed. This. therefore, seems to me to be a major break-through for the offensive.
  Can this sort of war on the open sea remain conventional? I find this almost impossible to believe. Once we are committed to that degree then, before we accepted starvation, or the Americans accepted the cutting of their lines of communication, it would be necessary to attack the sources of the submarines. Equally, before the Russians would accept defeat they surely could not neglect the means of success always

  1787
  available to them by completing the blockade by process of elimination of the ports. Therefore, it does not seem to me that this sort of war can remain conventional, and the more so when we realise that it must be part of a land war, too.
  The idea that the Russians would take the risk of opening up a blockade and an attack generally on merchant ships save to support land operations in Europe is surely inconceivable. After all, the whole idea of the N.A.T.O. concept is that we should have forces in Europe—in other debates, we have urged that these forces should be larger and more powerful forces—to provide a pause for negotiation. Submarine warfare, being of its nature a war of attrition, has the pause built into it. There is always the opportunity for negotiation there. There is time to negotiate. There is that for which our ground forces are at present in Europe to provide us. I therefore find it extremely difficult to visualise this N.A.T.O. sea war.
  I thus come to the question whether the capacity to fight this most improbable of wars is worth the priority which we are giving to the anti-submarine function. It is difficult to analyse and, as the Civil Lord has said, there is a degree of versatility in a great many of these ships. As I see it. probably nearer three-quarters than one-half of our Fleet is an anti-submarine fleet. It is an antisubmarine fleet in the sense that its function is to attack submarines and to protect itself from aircraft, but in the main the aircraft-protection function—and I take in this the assessment of aircraft carriers as being 50–50—is largely to produce an anti-submarine capacity.
  When I ask whether it is worth that proportion, one may remember that when Alice observed the mousetraps on the horse's legs the White Knight said:
  "It is as well to be prepared against everything."
  We cannot afford to be prepared against everything. We have to select priorities, and this anti-submarine priority seems to me altogether too large, especially—and the hon. Gentleman emphasised the alliance aspect of this—when one considers that, whether we give this priority or not, the Atlantic is not empty.
  1788
  The Americans have 66 aircraft carriers devoted to anti-submarine warfare alone. This is not counting the strike force, it is the anti-submarine force. They have 600 anti-submarine vessels—destroyers, frigates and escorts They have, or are building, 76 nuclear anti-submarine submarines, so there is already there a tremendous capacity.
  I therefore think that in the major war, the war with Russia, there is not a real rôle for the Navy. That has always seemed to me to be the war that we here may be able to prevent, but which we cannot wage, and when one comes to prevention, one comes to Polaris. I am not going into the question whether, within the alliance, this country should go in for having a deterrent here instead of leaving it to the Americans. That can be discussed on other occasions.
  However, it seems to me that if the decision is that we shall have a deterrent. it is clear that we can be interested in the deterrent only as the second strike weapon, the second blow. Therefore, security of the deterrent from our point of view is all-important. Nobody is deterred by that which he can destroy by the act which one wishes to deter. Security is all-important, and the security that Polaris can offer is very much greater than the security which any other kind of deterrent can offer. Therefore, if the Navy has a major war rôle, surely it is in the deterrent and nothing else.
  I now turn to the other rôle, which is perhaps the cold war rôle, or, I think more accurately to describe it, acts of war, or if the Government prefer on occasions to describe it so, acts of armed police intervention against nations other than Russia. Again, is the anti-submarine capacity which we have here justified by the requirements of that kind of rôle? The Egyptians have been given nine subbarines. The Indonesians have been given two, and with the development of Russian atomic submarine power I think that it may well be that the Russians will find that they have less and less use for conventional submarines, and that they are a bigger and better nuisance when distributed to everybody who might be a nuisance to us.
  We have to visualise that happening, but, in any event, if Egypt, or Indonesia, or any of the nations of the Middle East or of the Gulf start poaching our ships

  1789
  in ex-Soviet submarines, are we going to put our ships into convoy? Are we going to search the haystack for these needles? Surely, in that sort of war, the antisubmarine method is not to search the ocean, but to take out the port, and that is the capacity we need. We need the capacity to be able to go into these lesser wars and take the port from which submarines of this kind are operating.
  Mr. Emrys Hughes rose—
  Mr. Paget: I am sorry, but I cannot give way.
  It is the combined operations capacity which we require and that, and not the anti-submarine role, should be the first task of the fleet.
  We have had a lot of talk about manpower. For the last ten years, ever since Korea, I have been in favour of abolishing National Service, but I have never believed that we could do that and simply leave the Army to carry out its existing commitments. It has always seemed of the essence that we should have a change of commitments, and it seems to me that this is where the Navy could make provision to take over from the Army the rôle of the mobile reserve of the Commonwealth. That would give it a real purpose.
  Let me state shortly the kind of fleet that I visualise. We have three fleet aircraft carriers taking about 5,000 men —one refitting, and two in service. We have six cruisers. That is, roughly, another 5,000 men. We require 24 to 30 escort vessels of all sorts for this sort of fleet and then for the troops we have "Bulwark." The "Albion" is coming in shortly, and the "Triumph", the "Magnificent" and the "Leviathan" should be given a similar role. They need not be as elaborately fitted out as the "Bulwark". In these terms we are not thinking of first-class opponents. Combined operations against a nuclear Power are "not on".
  I am thinking of the ships which moved a lot of troops and material at the time of Suez, without any refitting at all. Ships of that type are more economic, and we should get away from this idea that only the newest toy is worth having. In this rôle it does not need to be the newest toy.
  1790
  Then we have the landing craft dock which has been produced with such drama. It is called an assault ship. The Americans call it the landing craft dock. The Thomaston came in 1954 and I think that eight of them have come since. We have been pressing for this for years. Why has it come only now, and why only one? I am told that it will cost between £7 million and £8 million. How can one compare that in value with the £20 million to £25 million which, I understand, we are spending to renovate the "Eagle"? To renovate it for what? After all, in this retie, which is the real rôcle of the Navy, what is the task which the renovated "Eagle" or the renovated "Victorious" can play which they could not play before £20 million was spent on them'? Fly off the Buccaneer perhaps'?
  But in this sort of war the difficulty is to persuade aeroplanes to fly slowly enough. To sacrifice three or four assault craft of this sort for renovations to one aircraft carrier seems to show an utter lack of a sense of proportion. After all, they do not necessarily have to be the latest ships. Look at the construction programme that we have at the moment. First, there is the aircraft carrier. A sum of £20 million is being spent on the "Eagle." Then we come to the cruisers. At £15 million apiece did this country ever make a worse bargain than on the three "Lions"? What can those ships do in the class of war which we are contemplating in which the "Sheffield", the "Gambia" and the "Mauritius" could not'? It is said that we want these against the Russians. It is said we want these cruisers because the Russian cruisers are so good. Why not ask Mr. Khrushchev to sell us Russian cruisers? It would be much cheaper. He has said that they are no good and that he would be delighted to sell them to us. I think that he is quite right. Cruisers are obsolete.
  We are told with great pride that we have 19 frigates building.
  Mr. C. Ian Orr-Ewing: I think that the hon. and learned Gentleman previously rather held out the bogey of the Russian cruisers—28, I think he said—and asked whether we could possibly hold a candle to those. I would remind him that the decision to go ahead with the "Tiger" class—three cruisers—was

  1791
  not taken by this Government or the previous Government, but the Government of which he was a member. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] Yes, it was. Of course, I should not have said that the hon. and learned Gentleman was a member of that Government, but a supporter of that Government. The decision was taken by them in 1950–51.
  Mr. Paget: Let us be quite clear on this, that ten years has been enough in which to cancel a damned bad decision whether it was theirs or ours.
  In the cold war, what would those ships do which the ships we scrapped could not? After all, we are not looking, in this sort of ship, for the marginally better. There is not that sort of navy for them to meet. When the hon. Gentleman says that I referred to the great value of the Soviet cruisers, I would say that I tried to tell what the Soviet fleet was, and to say that that sort of war, which I did not believe in, could not remain non-atomic. That is all I said. According to Mr. Khrushchev, if the Government want Russian cruisers, he would be only to pleased to sell them some, and I would think that he is wise.
  We are told with pride that 19 frigates are being built. Let us look at the Reserve Fleet. We have 39 frigates in the Reserve Fleet. I think that of those all except eight are either post-war or post-war conversions. Why do we need this marginal superiority for the sort of task which we are visualising for the Navy, that is, for a cold war task? I say this because I believe that one can carry this switchover without going to prohibitive expense.
  The finest troops in the world today, I would say, are the Marines. I would say that because they really believe in their purpose. [HoN. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] Well, what the Marines can do sailors can do better. That has always been our tradition. If we have a Marine Division, let us have a Naval Division, too, out of 88,000 men if we are to concentrate on the real need, which is a force lightly equipped—because we need only light equipment for this; we do not need heavy tanks—mobile and ready, which can be delivered at the spot, whose base can be defended, and which can be given air support. That is what we need,
  1792
  and that is, I believe, the contribution which the Navy can provide.
  Instead of that, what have we got? We have got a bit of everything. We have got what I think is ample justification for what the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Birmingham, Hall Green (Mr. Aubrey Jones) said on Monday, that
  "the weapons programme as now constituted does not, in fact, conform with an objectively shaped plan. To the best of my opinion, it is a sum of items, a large number of them designed for no better purpose that to promote the interest of an individual Service."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 27th February, 1961; Vol. 635, c. 1250.]
  We have got a little bit of everything here. We have got new toys. As a result, we have got a Navy which is two-thirds shore-based. We have a Navy with more admirals than ships.
  I return to the point and to some remarks I used the other day about decadence. I do not mean the decadence of the very splendid men who man the fleet, but I do say this, that when this sort of thing happens to a Service that is decadence of the Service, and, just as decadence is the loss of belief in one's purpose, so morale is the sense of that purpose. If the Navy becomes the mobile reserve of the Commonwealth, then that spirit which has emanated in the Marines, because they have felt they have had a purpose, will be matched by the Navy. It was long ago, many centuries ago, that Polybius said that of all the engines and weapons of war the most important by far is the spirit of the warrior. That is, above all, what we have to create here, and it is available here for us to create in this magnificent Service.
  Since the war—I am not comparing Government with Government; I am talking of the Service, and that is much more important—we have had no coherent strategic doctrine, we have had no comprehensive strategic purpose, we have had no task known and believed in, and so we have descended to a bit of everything and the new toys and a sort of White Knight policy. That is what I want to get away from, because until it is corrected we shall have a job lot of expensive toys but we shall not have the fleet to which this country has been accustomed and which it deserves.
  5.16 p.m.
  Vice-Admiral John Hughes Hallett: Throughout the two-day debate on defence, earlier this week, it seemed to me very noticeable that, those who speak from the Opposition Front Bench were hampered and inhibited by a rather artificial attitude towards nuclear weapons, which they had to present.
  I had a feeling that the same difficulty beset the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget) today. He really went as near as he possibly could to saying that he thought the Navy should have Polaris—without actually saying it. He said that it was almost impossible to imagine a major war not fought with nuclear weapons. As I have understood their policy. although I may have misunderstood it, the Opposition would not support the arming of our ships with nuclear weapons, which would put them in some difficulty in fighting it.
  Indeed, the controversy within the Opposition out of which the official policy has emerged is really not a controversy about defence, but is rather an issue between a form of pacifism and an attempt, which becomes more ludicrous day by day, to obtain some form of reconciliation with that which is irreconcilable. Yet there are great issues in regard to defence which need discussion and debate at present and which, in my judgment, chiefly concern the future of the Navy.
  I am very grateful for having been called now. I am grateful for the opportunity of explaining why it was that I felt obliged myself to abstain from supporting the final vote on the White Paper on defence. I am glad also, I may say, of the opportunity to make it clear that my abstaining had nothing whatever to do, was in no way linked, with those reactionary pressure groups who wished to restore conscription, people who, I think, have forgotten the lessons drawn from the agony of the First World War, possibly because they are too young to remember it.
  We had a curtain-raiser to this debate on 14th February, arising from an Amendment by my hon. Friend the Member for Mitcham (Mr. R. Carr) dealing with the Report of the Select Committee on Estimates on the Admiralty.
  1794
  In passing, I am bound to say that the Report has fallen on deaf ears. Whereas, during the past two years, some of us have criticised the fact that the Admiralty Vote—I am speaking now of Vote 12, which is within the framework of these Votes—had risen by £500,000, I am sorry to say it seems to have gone up this year by £618,000.
  During that debate—this is the reason I refer to it now—the hon. and learned Member for Northampton made a very interesting speech. I have given him notice that I intended to quote from it. The hon. and learned Gentleman said:
  "…the classic statement of the old days was that the function of the Navy was to keep the sea open for our shipping and to deny it to the enemy. Since the war, however, and in the post-war circumstances, that has not been re-echoed.
  In so far as that function happens at all, it is today a function primarily of the air. It is not a function of the sea. In reconnaissance, in covering and in attack, the sea is held primarily from the air."—[OFFICIAL. REPORT, 14th February, 1961; Vol. 634, c. 1298]
  With respect to the hon. and learned Gentleman, I think that he is quite mistaken. I should have said that the influence of aircraft on maritime operations is something which has passed its zenith. As anti-aircraft guided missiles are increasingly perfected, as naval striking power goes more and more under water, as I believe it will, so the part played by aircraft will tend to diminish rather than to increase.
  The hon. and learned Gentleman went on to say some other things which I had intended to quote, but I shall refrain from doing so, because he has repeated them today. He spoke of the effect of lack of purpose and lack of certainty with regard to the function of the Navy, in producing a very expensive Service with a little bit of everything—I think that was the way he put it—and he spoke about the danger of a Navy of no ships and all admirals—in other words, the decline in the standards of a great public Service. That is something which I, in my humble way, have said on previous occasions, and to a certain extent it is true.
  I am reminded of a famous aircraft carrier which I once had the honour to command, the "Illustrious". Her motto, as I found on joining, was, "Vox non incerta", which means. "No uncertain voice". The idea of that motto came

  1795
  from a passage in St. Paul's First Epistle to the Corinthians, which reads:
  "For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?"
  For the men who designed, built and fought the "Illustrious", the trumpet did not give an uncertain sound. They knew exactly what they were about. The motto could not have been more apt for them.
  Since the war, I am sorry to say, for reasons not entirely within the control of the Board of Admiralty, the trumpet has given an uncertain sound, and a good deal of what the hon. and learned Member said is distressingly near the truth. But he omitted to say one thing. It may be curious, but it is none the less true, that, despite the uncertainty, the morale, zeal, enthusiasm and efficiency of the personnel of the Navy has never been higher than it is today. This is, I think, a remarkable tribute to those who have been in charge of the Service. It applies also to the civilians who serve the Navy so well and who, as hon. Members know, far outnumber the uniformed ranks.
  Perhaps this would be the appropriate time to pay a tribute to their professional head, Sir John Lang, who, after very long and distinguished service at the Admiralty, is due to retire this month. I am sure that hon. Members who have served on the Estimates Committee or the Public Accounts Committee have come to respect his skill anyhow as a witness.
  So long as we held fast, as we did a few years ago, to the policy of full nuclear retaliation to any major aggression, the uncertainty in the Navy's rôle did not matter very much because it was obvious 'that the Navy would not have a rôle in a major war. However, there has been a change of approach. There is no doubt about that at all. One has only to listen to the defence debates to realise that. I am not concerned here —indeed, I think that it would be out of order—to argue whether that change of approach is right or wrong. The fact remains—and this is relevant—that today we think only in terms of all-out nuclear retaliation in response to an all-out nuclear attack, and, as a corollary, we have to think in terms of our forces engaged in a major war which might last some time. After all, this is what all the chatter from the conscription lobby have been about the whole time.
  1796
  The moment one accepts this possibility, the exact size of the Army is a matter of trifling importance compared with the huge increase which would be necessary in the size of the Navy, or, at any rate, in the power of the Navy, because we would then require a Navy which would have to keep open our see communications for a finite time. Our sea communications today are every bit as essentials as they have been in the past.
  This is why I believe that the Navy today stands at the parting of the ways. I believe that great decisions fall to be made. Yet I can detect no recognition of this in the White Paper on Defence and no recognition of it in the First Lord's Explanatory Statement. Neither can I detect any, or any sufficient, recognition of the revolutionary impact of the invention of the Polaris missile on the whole military schene, Those were the reasons why I felt that, without further explanation, I could not support the White Paper.
  The first and the chief choice before the country is whether to have a prestige Navy, or to build a fighting Navy able to play a major part in a major war. By a prestige Navy I mean the sort of Navy dear to the Foreign Office, dear to the Colonial Office, dear—I am sorry to say, after listening to his speech—to the hon. and learned Member for Northampton, a Navy which is useful for showing the flag, with beautifully painted ships, plenty of high funnels, nicely dressed sailors all house trained, officers with good social qualities, and all the rest—a Navy which also, if necessary, can aid the Governor of one of our outlying Colonies in restoring civil order, a Navy which in an emergency could even take part in a small local war rather on the lines which the hon. and learned Member so clearly described.
  If we want such a Navy, of course we can have it. I imagine that we could have it for not more than, if as much as, half the price of our present Navy. But it would be very little more than a marine militia and it would leave us utterly dependent on the United States of America for the maintenance of our sea communications in case of real trouble.
  If interdependence means dependence on our allies in one arm, then I say, let that arm be the Army rather than the Navy. When I say that, I feel sure

  1797
  that I speak for the vast majority of the electorate, because, after all, this country is inhabited by a great maritime people. I shall suppose, therefore, that we decide upon a fighting Navy. Now, a further question arises: shall we build on traditional lines or shall we go under the water? I think that the answer to that question depends upon whether we assume that nuclear weapons will be used, or whether we expect the war to be fought, to be won and lost, all according to strict Queensberry rules in which nuclear weapons are not used.
  All my intuition is that nuclear weapons will be used at least in the limited tactical rôle and certainly on the high seas, where they are unlikely to do injury to civil populace and promote unlimited war. I regard that as quite inevitable. I have no doubt therefore, that the aircraft carrier must give place to the missile submarine as the capital ship of the modern age.
  It is surely quite wrong to think of missile submarines as capable only of firing the Polaris missile with a megaton head over a range of 1,200 miles. If it is possible to fire a missile for 1,200 miles with a megaton head, it must equally be possible to fire a missile with a very much smaller head 12 miles, 50 miles or 100 miles. Thus it is that the nuclear missile carrying submarine could be made, and, I am sure, will be made, a very versatile vessel of war, a vessel decisive against surface warships, a vessel admirable for the support of an army ashore if it is desired to employ the Navy in that role, and a vessel capable of the most deadly self-defence.
  I notice that the hon. and learned Member made that point, and it can be illustrated in a simple and dramatic way. Let us imagine that one of the existing American Polaris submarines became aware, by listening, that there were several attacking frigates in her area. She would hear them, although she would not know exactly where they were, and she would know that they must be in the area. All she would have to do would be to fire one missile set to explode, perhaps, 3,000 feet in the sky. She herself would be several hundred feet under water, but all the ships on the surface and all the helicopters flying around would be destroyed. As I say,
  1798
  these vessels are of very much greater power than has yet been realised. But this is only the beginning of the story.
  One does not have to be a unilateralist to look forward to the day when there are no longer any rocket sites or nuclear bomber bases in the British Isles. I think that we should all prefer that. It could come about through their replacement by a seaborne nuclear striking force comprising a reasonable number of Polaris submarines, constructed gradually during the coming ten or twenty years, during which time the bombers and the rockets could be progressively run down. Then, perhaps by 1970 or 1975, we should have a political deterrent against all out surprise attack at least as powerful as and far less provocative and inflammable than anything we possess at present.
  Mr. A. C. Manuel: This is a very interesting point. Has the hon. and gallant Member taken the economic argument into his reasoning? I understand that the Polaris costs £45 million apiece. How many does he think that we could have? Alternatively, how many does he think we could afford over the next decade?
  Vice-Admiral Hughes Hallett: If the hon. Member wild wait, I intend to come to that 'later in response to something said during the defence debate by my hon. Friend the Member for Horncastle (Sir J. Maitland).
  I have referred, as hon. Members on both sides have previously referred, to the great power of the Polaris submarine as a deterrent. In addition, however—this is something which I do not think has yet been fully realised—we should. with Polaris, have a force capable of being employed either strategically or even tactically without undue risk of precipitating total war.
  That would be so, because with these submarines we could revert to the older custom of giving due warning of intended strikes so that the civil populace could evacuate the target area. Legally, we have long been bound to give such warning, although in both the wars this century it was invariably held that the need for surprise constituted a sufficient excuse—and there is a let-out in the Geneva Convention—to dispense with the need for that warning.

  1799
  No such need applies in the case of bombardment from submarines. The enemy would have no idea whereabouts the vessel was and there would be nothing whatever he could do about it even if he had two or three days' notice. It would be useless for an enemy to threaten indiscriminate retaliation, because that would amount to total war and, by hypothesis, if he was prepared to risk total war, presumably we would have had it from the beginning, so that such a threat could be disregarded.
  What is much more likely is that the enemy would make a corresponding retaliatory threat. We might say that we intended to destroy the marshalling yards at Smolensk, and he would say that in that case he would destroy the docks at Southampton. I recognise that disastrous damage might ensue, but, terrible though that prospect might be, it falls very far short of the nemesis of total war. It is a prospect which would act as a more effective and enduring deterrent to aggression in any form than we have at present.
  Mr. Emrys Hughes: Supposing the hon. and gallant Member's opposite number in Russia is thinking in the same way, and supposing that we get, an ultimatum saying that the target area is Glasgow and that the civilian population ought to be evacuated, where are the 1½ million people of Glasgow to go?
  Vice-Admiral Hughes Hallett: That is something to which the hon. Member should address his mind.
  I have given the Committee some of the reasons why I regard a change-over to a seaborne nuclear deterrent as desirable and inevitable. Whatever may be thought of it on either Front Bench, we surely cannot long delay a policy which offers such overwhelming advantages to this country. In saying that, I may be forgiven one sentence which is out of order—I am deeply conscious of the implication that my proposals would have for certain sections of the Air Force, and that is why I have repeatedly urged a gradual merger between the two Services.
  I now come to the point which the hon. Member for Central Ayrshire (Mr. Manuel) made. It is ridiculous to dis-
  1800
  miss this concept on the ground that it is necessarily too expensive for Britain, and I cannot imagine what my hon. Friend the Member for Horncastle was thinking of When he said what he did in the debate on defence.
  Sir John Maitland: I will explain in a minute.
  Vice-Admiral Hughes Hallett: I am reminded of the statement made by Colonel Moore-Brabazon, as he then was, when he was a Member of the House in 1936, and when he challenged the rebuilding of the battle fleet on the ground that 400 bombers of that day and age could be made and constructed for the cost of one battleship. Hon. Members may remember that the Admiralty took him up and, at its request, Mr. Baldwin appointed a Committee under the then Attorney-General, Sir Thomas Inskip—that was the first time that he came into defence—on which there was also Mr. Malcolm MacDonald and another hon. Member whose name I cannot remember.
  It was called the V.C.S. Committee and it seriously examined the proposal of how many bombers could be maintained for the cost of one battleship, how many battleships for one aircraft carrier, and so on. Many of its findings were published and I have no doubt that they are still available for those who know where to look for these things in the Library. I commend them to the study of the hon. Member, because the problem is the same today although, unfortunately, the dimensions of the money involved are larger. The real question is what would be the expenditure year by year over the next twenty years, say, if we gradually replaced our heavy fleet carriers, our cruisers and our V-bombers—not forgetting the Thor rockets—by a fleet of nuclear submarines.
  Hon. Members who attend these debates—and they are very much the same year after year—will acquit me of any habit of boosting the Navy. In the past, most of my observations have been criticisms—I hope fairly friendly—of excessive expenditure. When coming into Parliament after a long period in a great profession, one has to be careful, because if one stands up for the profession too much, one is accused of being biased, and if one criticises too much, it is said that one has a chip on one's shoulder.

  1801
  I believe that I speak for the majority of the people in this country in expressing great anxiety over our present naval policy. For three and a half centuries, right up to 1940, this country maintained a Navy which was among the most powerful fighting forces in the world, and which, for long periods, was the most powerful. All our wealth and our greatness as a country were founded on sea power and our life today and our standard of living are entirely dependent upon our sea communications.
  Yet the paramount need, as we felt it—and I support the Government in this—to build up the nuclear deterrent has obliged us to split our resources and to cut down the Navy for the sake of the bomber force. That is one of the reasons why the Navy today is so pitiably inadequate for the duties it may be called upon to perform.
  A new invention now makes it possible to combine both functions in one force. It makes it possible to build up a fleet which would be capable of protecting our sea communications while providing a most powerful deterrent against total war. Let the Government show some awareness of that event, and let them thank God for deliverance from what has been a very great dilemma.
  5.42 p.m.
  Mr. John Dugdale: I am very glad that the hon. and gallant Member for Croydon, North-East (Vice-Admiral Hughes Hallett) referred to the coming departure of the Secretary for the Admiralty, and I should like to add my tribute to a man who has done magnificent work for the Admiralty for many years. I worked with him for some years and can well remember first seeing him when he came into my office. When I asked him questions, he started talking in a manner perhaps even slower than that of my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget). He took a very long time to answer the questions, and I thought he was very slow-witted. I discovered that, far from being slow witted, he was among the quickest witted men I had ever met, and I came to look upon him not only as a member of a Board with whom I had worked, but as a friend. I am sorry that he is retiring, but I hope that he has a happy retirement.
  I want to follow what the hon. and gallant Member said about having a
  1802
  "prestige" or a fighting Navy. I hesitate to say anything about this matter after having heard first a commander and then an admiral, but as a mere civilian I entirely agree with the hon. and gallant Member that there should be a fighting rather than a "prestige" Navy. Like him. I am disturbed by the splitting up of the Navy into so many different bits without having any clear idea of where we are going.
  But I disagree with him on another matter. His idea of a fighting Navy is a Navy fit to fight—and this is clearly the idea of most people—in war. But if there were a nuclear war the Navy might not be able to do much about fighting at all. Many people realise that, but what is of the utmost importance is that the Navy should be able to fight during the cold war, and it may well be able to undertake many of the duties which the Army finds increasingly difficult to perform today.
  In the defence debate, most of the remarks of the Minister of Defence and others were devoted not to defence in general, but exclusively to the Army and its problems of recruiting, manpower and the movement of troops, and we came to realise that they were very serious problems.
  The Army has immense difficulties about recruiting. I do not want to maximise them, because I hope that the recruiting programme will succeed and that the Army will have enough recruits and will not have to have recourse to conscription. The Navy's recruitment, however, is only a little below requirement, and the standards required are apparently so high that only 5,000 men could be taken out of the 15,000 who came forward. In other words, the Navy has a very high requirement of skill and general education and it can take only about one-third of the people who want to join. I do not believe that that is the position with the Army.
  Why cannot the Navy increase its rôle and do some of the work at present done by the Army? There are 8,800 marines, which is a slight reduction on the previous figure, but it is relatively easier to recruit marines than to recruit soldiers, and I would have thought that it was better to recruit more marines. I am glad to see that no fewer than 40 per cent. of the men in the Royal Navy

  1803
  are re-engaging. That is a remarkable figure, but I fear that it does not apply to the Army.
  Mr.C.Ian Orr-Ewing: That is the lowest favourable figure. The figure is 65 per cent. for twelve-year men, which is staggeringly high and as good as we have had in our history.
  Mr. Dugdale: It is magnificent, and that is one reason why I suggest that some of the work now done by the Army might well be done by the Navy.
  The Army's second problem is that of movement, as we discovered in the defence debate. It seems that troops cannot be moved rapidly enough from one place to another and that the air lift has not come up to expectations and that only comparatively small forces can be moved to other areas at great speed. If that is so, and if there are too few troops to man B.A.O.R. and home defence here, and our outlying overseas possessions, might not the Navy be able to undertake some of the work which the Army manifestly finds it impossible to do?
  The Army might confine itself to the defence of these islands and the provision of the forces in B.A.O.R., leaving the defence of the outlying areas largely to the Royal Navy—particularly the many small islands. Incidentally, some of my hon. Friends who seem to have doubts on the matter should appreciate that these small islands must be defended by somebody if not by us.
  What is the Navy to do? We are told that 39 out of 72 frigates are now in reserve, but to have more than half our frigates in reserve is surely a mistake. These small ships could perform useful functions during the cold war and could go to places where there were emergencies. It is a great pity that they should be locked up in reserve for long periods.
  I believe it valuable that ships of the Navy should pay visits, although I hope that future visits will not be made to South Africa, unless we can be given an assurance that officers and ratings of any colour will be treated with the proper courtesy and respect which I think everyone in the Committee would agree should be accorded to all the Royal Navy. So long as this cannot be
  1804
  guaranteed I think it would be quite wrong for naval vessels to pay any future visits to South Africa.
  If we are to have more frigates and more smaller ships, does that mean that we shall have vastly increased expenditure? I should have thought that as we increase the number of frigates so we should be able to reduce the number of minesweepers in active service. We should require the minesweepers in the event of a major war and they could be put in reserve for such an occasion. But nobody can tell me that today it is necessary for minesweepers to go all over the seven seas sweeping up mines. There are no mines to be swept up. I should have thought that many of the minesweepers could be put into reserve and the frigates brought out. I do not know what would be the difference in cost—and, indeed, frigates cost more than minesweepers—but something on those lines might prove useful.
  I see that the expenditure on research is going up by no less than £23 million. or 10 per cent. It is very desirable that there should be research, but are we certain that there exists sufficient co-operation with the United States in this regard? I have a feeling in the back of my mind that we do a lot of research and then go to the Americans and say, with pride, "We have discovered this". only to be told by the Americans that they have discovered it too—or vice versa. That could happen. I know that magnificent achievements have resulted from our research, which most Americans may wrongly imagine is due to their work, such as the angled flight deck, mirror landings and various other things relating to aircraft carriers. For all that, I think there is a need for greater co-operation with the Americans and that it should be shown that we have such co-operation. I do not know in what manner it could be shown, but I think it should be. which is not done in these Estimates. If I can be satisfied about that, I shall feel happier about a large proportion of the Estimates.
  My principal reason for speaking in this debate is my concern about the rôle of the Navy in a cold war. I consider that the present build-up is wrong. There should be a greater proportion of smaller ships and, in particular, a greater number of frigates, and we

  1805
  should pay far less attention to big ships which were mainly built for a hot war. Today, with nuclear armaments in enemy hands—they might be in grave difficulties. I hope that during the next year the Minister of Defence will pay far greater attention to the Navy than he has in the past. I hope he will realise the contribution it can make to our defence in a cold war; that he will so alter his general allocation of funds and his general development plans that the Navy will be able once more to play a bigger rôle than it has during the past years, and that we may find the balance between the Army, Navy and Air Force altered in favour of the Royal Navy.
  .55 p.m.
  Mr. G. R. Howard: The right hon. Member for West Bromwich (Mr. Dugdale) will forgive me, I hope, if I do not follow him, but I wish to confine myself not to telling the Navy what to do but to asking one or two questions which have occurred to me after culling through the Explanatory Statement. We must congratulate the noble Lord and my right hon. Friend on this extremely well-produced document which is of great interest to all concerned. In paragraph 7 it states:
  "…the Navy, in covering its world-wide commitments, is thinly spread."
  I could not agree more. We have had a problem over Iceland, and we must congratulate the Navy on its handling of that difficult matter, as I mentioned last year. I wish to make a concrete suggestion about how we can help to spread the load by a further expansion of co-operation with Commonwealth Navies, and later I will take up what was said by the hon. and learned Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget) about the use of carriers.
  I cannot agree with the somewhat arbitrary dismissal of aircraft carriers by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Croydon, North-East (Vice-Admiral Hughes Hallett). Reference has been made to a sort of dual rôle for submarines, but I do not know how it would be possible to land an assault force from a submarine. It might prove a difficult operation.
  Mr. Paget: What the hon. Member's hon. and gallant Friend was suggesting was not that they should land a force, but that they should escort it. Surely
  1806
  the escort power of a submarine might be considerable.
  Mr. Howard: I do not want to take up too much time, so I will not develop that argument.
  I agree with the Civil Lord that aircraft carriers are absolutely necessary in the foreseeable future. I was glad to hear that serious thought is being given to a new generation of aircraft carriers. I expressed my fears on this subject during our debates last year on the Navy Estimates. Let us consider the problem of getting an aircraft from, say, Lee-on-Solent to the Far East. Suppose it goes overland. What are the logistics for even the smallest aircraft? If they were made public the figures would be pretty formidable. On the other hand, with our plans for the future, what better transport for aircraft than an aircraft carrier?
  There is the principle of cross-operating, about which I hope we shall hear more. The Royal Air Force can and will increasingly be able to cross-operate from carriers and land bases. I think that this will become increasingly essential. The other day the Minister of Defence talked about the carrier below the horizon, and I thought his remarks made very good sense. If we send a frigate to some trouble spot, its appearance may have a salutary effect, but the effect is far greater if people know that there is a carrier in the vicinity.

  ROYAL ASSENT
  6.0 p.m.
  Whereupon The GENTLEMAN-USHER OF THE BLACK ROD being come with a Message, The CHAIRMAN left the Chair.
  Mr. SPEAKER resumed the Chair.
  Message to attend the Lords Commissioners;
  The House went:—and, having returned;
  Mr. SPEAKER reported the Royal Assent to:

  1. Consolidated Fund Act, 1961.

  2 Electricity (Amendment) Act, 1961.

  3. Agricultural Research, etc. (Pensions) Act, 1961.

  4. Overseas Service Act, 1961.

  1807

  5. Diplomatic Immunities (Conferences with Commonwealth Countries and Republic of Ireland) Act, 1961.

  6. Zetland County Council (Symbister Harbour) Order Confirmation Act, 1961.

  7. Cardiff Corporation Act, 1961.

  8. Esso Petroleum Company Act, 1961.

  And to the following Measure, passed under the provisions of the Church of England Assembly (Powers) Act, 1919:
  Farnham Castle Measure, 1961.

  SUPPLY
  Again considered in Committee.

  Major Sir WILLIAM ANSTRUTHER-GRAY in the Chair
  Question again proposed,
  That 100,000 Officers, Seamen and Juniors and Royal Marines, who are borne on the books of Her Majesty's Ships and at the Royal Marine establishments, and members of the Women's Royal Naval Service and Queen Alexandra's Royal Naval Nursing Service, be employed for the Sea Service, for the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1962.
  Mr. Howard: Before the House went to the other place to hear the Commission read, I was saying that if possible I should like to hear something about the system of cross-operating, the R.A.F. being able to operate to and from carriers and land bases. Two other reasons why the carrier is essential in this context are, one, that then we would not upset national susceptibilities by having a ship off shore as opposed to making a definite landing at some trouble spot, and, two, the inevitable and increasing difficulties of holding on to British bases overseas. This is something which is not going to get easier. For these and other reasons. I cannot agree with the assumption of my hon. Friend that carriers are no longer needed in the Service.
  One thing which is stressed on all sides is the high cost of all modern naval equipment. I hone that at the end of the debate we shall be told something about the possibilities of interchangeability of the next generation of aircraft between the Air Force and the
  1808
  Navy. I know that all-up weight is a difficult problem, but I think it can be solved. There seems no reason why the future generation of aircraft should not be common to the R.A.F., while it still has them, and the Navy. That would save a great deal of money in research and development and would be of use, also, for the reasons I have stated, in cross-operating. I hope, also, that we shall be told something about research projects, including vertical take-off aircraft. This kind of thing could be done very much better if we integrated all research and development of the three Services rather like they do in France, so that they came under the Minister of Defence. I should like to see the Ministry of Aviation taken out of this sphere.
  I was pleased to hear the Minister of Defence say the other day:
  "Having selected our fields of endeavour, we have to work out whether we are now successfully operating a better method of selecting our projects…—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 27th February, 1961; 635, c. 1214.]
  He went on to say that the Government were going over to the idea of five-year Estimates, or five-year appraisal of projects. That seems to be the kind of thing which could save the Navy a great deal of money. With yearly Estimates, a spending Department says: "We have so much to spend. If we do not spend right up to that amount this year, we shall be cut down next year." If in some fields we could have five-year Estimates, or five-year planning, it should be a great advantage to the service and the taxpayer.
  Turning to the question of smaller ships, I see that on page 8 of the Explanatory Statement it is said, in paragraph 15:
  "Coastal and inshore minesweepers will operate with the Fishery Protection Squadron"
  I am glad to hear that. I think there can be an immense amount of good seamanship training done in these smaller ships round the coasts. With the complexty of modern equpment and the cost of modern vessels, it is exceedingly difficult to get adequate sea time for the numbers who require training, and in this kind of craft that can be done. Recently, when doing a little training myself, I discussed this matter with the division to which I am attached.

  1809
  It may be worth while the Admiralty considering the building of a new edition of coastal minesweepers, rather bigger but anti-magnetic, like the present ones, which would be thoroughly unsophisticated, the idea being that they would be purely for seamanship training. We would not have to put in the black boxes and all the complicated pieces of equipment we have at the moment because these vessels would be used just for seamanship training. As and when the need arose, or an emergency arose, the black boxes could be put in and they would not be out-of-date.
  This might not only be helpful to seamanship training, but in giving work to smaller yards which could keep their hand in at building these ships. It might be useful, also, in such a case as I heard of the other day from a naval officer in which a university wanted to give students certain aspects of naval training but was not able to do so because ships were not available. I do not know whether it was a kind of cadet force attached to the university which was concerned. This seems to be something worth looking into.
  There has been some talk today about foreign visits. These must help recruiting, but it is not fair to expect anyone —particularly officers—who goes on these flag-showing foreign visits to be badly out of pocket at the end of them. I know that commander-in-chiefs' funds, and so on, are available, but I hope it will always be borne in mind that these "ambassadors" cannot be expected to be out of pocket in any way.
  My hon. Friend touched on training and quoted various exercises. I declare an interest here, being in the R.N.R. myself, but it is quite a feather in the cap of the Royal Naval Reserve that on minesweeping exercises we get minesweepers manned entirely by Naval Reserve officers and men. I know that it amazes Service people of other N.A.T.O. countries to find that purely Naval Reserve officers and men are sufficiently highly trained to do this. My hon. Friend was kind enough to say what tremendous value these exercises have.
  Paragraph 23 of the Explanatory Statement says:
  "The growing strength and importance of Commonwealth and Colonial Navies is hearten-
  1810
  ing to those who believe in the rôle the Commonwealth has to play in world affairs."
  We keep on saying that we are thinly spread and that it is difficult to provide enough ships, but many hon. Members may not realise that the active strength of the major Commonwealth countries is at present more than 58,000 men. That is a large number of naval officers and ratings to be on active service. Instead of what one might call flogging "old carriers to Cuba or someone else, why cannot we give one of them to Australia to be manned as a commando carrier by the Australians, thereby letting them share in the naval task in the Far East? It would be a great example of Commonwealth co-operation.
  These navies all round the world are the most wonderful form of N.A.T.O. I know that the Explanatory Statement talks of the number of courses that have been taken by Commonwealth naval officers and ratings, but I wonder whether we are giving the Commonwealth countries enough of what I might call the really big help— providing them with the ships and helping them in other ways? The spirit amongst these navies is second to none, and could be of enormous help to us throughout the world.
  I was glad to read in paragraph 47:
  "Two fleet replenishment tankers of improved design have been ordered in the past year."
  Those who did not attend exercise "Shopwindow" last year would be amazed at the speed and efficiency of replenishment afloat. They would be amazed, too, to see it done at night and to realise how carriers and other ships can even alter course during replenishment. This is of immense importance, and if we are to accept the floating-base concept it is essential that we have adequate replenishment ships.
  Turning to research and development, what percentage of the Estimates is being spent on underwater weapon development? In the Estimates debate last year I said, and it was never queried, that out of £14 million approximately £1·6 million was being spent on underwater weapons. What we must always remember, and what may not have been taken adequately into account by the hon. and learned Member for Northampton, is that while we obviously cannot have all the things we want, research and development is

  1811
  essential. If we have a major breakthrough in some particular aspect of naval equipment, adequate money should be available for its development. We ought to be told how much is made available for research.
  I am glad to read about maintenance support of destroyers and frigates, and I hope that as time goes on more of that support will go afloat. I see that "Manxman" is to do this kind of job. It is rather a pity that "Apollo", the sister ship, was done away with, but there was probably a good reason for that.
  I have asked enough questions, so will finish with a question asked by a certain very senior person of a certain Minister. He asked, "Do you wish to exercise military influence outside Europe? Because, if you do, you cannot do it without a Navy." If I sense the feeling of this Committee, it is that this is getting truer with every year that goes by. If we believe that, we must also believe that we need a properly balanced training Navy, if I may so term it. We need a navy that is keeping up with all the developments in every sphere possible. I do not see why, for flag showing, we should not use one or two ships that are not, perhaps, quite so good as the others, but we must have an up-to-date Navy, and I am sure that my noble Friend and my hon. Friend, and all those who are concerned with keeping our Navy the best in the world, are doing a very good job.
  6.33 p.m.
  Mr. H. Hynd: Every hon. Member who has so far spoken has been more or less a regular contributor to these debates, with practical experience of the Royal Navy in one way or another. I do not pretend to be a naval expert; my only modest experience came some time ago in the very minor capacity of P.P.S. at the Admiralty. However, like every other hon. Member, I get questions asked of me by my constituents, and I find it difficult, sometimes, to give the answers. It is to try to get the answers to some questions that I venture to intervene.
  I would add that although my connection with the Navy was a very slender one, during even that short time I developed a tremendous admiration for the Royal Navy and, I may add, for the
  1812
  efficiency of the Admiralty. As the Civil Lord said, the best tribute the Royal Navy has had from the general public is that it is not experiencing any real difficulty in recruiting. Nevertheless, with estimates of the magnitude with which we are faced today, our duty is to ask probing questions to see whether we are getting full value for the money.
  We notice that expenditure has gone up by nearly £16 million over last year. Such a tremendous increase needs a great deal of justification, and although I have read the Explanatory Statement, I am not at all satisfied. Reference has been made to the Estimates Committee's Report on the organisation of Admiralty headquarters. That Report pointed out that despite quite a large decrease in the number of ships, expenditure had risen by some 50 per cent.
  The hon. and gallant Member for Croydon, North-East (Vice-Admiral Hughes Hallett) has pointed out that despite that Report of the Estimates Committee, we are again faced this year with an increased expenditure on headquarters of no less than £618,000. That too needs a lot of justifying. I am very glad to hear from the Civil Lord that he has instituted what he called an "internal select committee" to examine the expenditure heading by heading. We all wish him success in that venture.
  We are faced with the fact that though the number of operational ships has fallen, and although there are some 2,000 fewer seamen this year, expenditure has again increased. So we may start by asking for what purpose do we need these 100,000 men and women in the Royal Navy?
  Let me start with the admirals—my old King Charles's head. We were told a year or two ago that there were over 100 admirals, and we were delighted to hear today that the number has been reduced to 83. The Civil Lord, however, did not mention the 15 Admirals of the Fleet listed in the Navy List. Of course, some of those are purely ornamental—at least I hope that they are not being paid—
  Captain John Litchfield: Half-pay.
  Mr. Hynd: Surely, the Duke of Windsor is not on half-pay. Something

  1813
  should be done about this. Some of these are purely honorary ranks, and I hope that they do not incur expenditure. In his explanation, the Civil Lord said that five admirals are doctors, one is a dentist and four have jobs with N.A.T.O. Are there not too many ceremonial posts being occupied by people of that rank? I will not specify them, that would not be customary, and I have nothing against their ability—but are they all really necessary?
  Mr. C. Ian Orr-Ewing: As this debate will he wound up at a late hour, it might help if I were to tell the Committee that ultimately we intend to have one medical admiral for our Malta hospitals and one in London, and that is all. The Malta hospital will be an inter-Service one. It is being taken over from the Army and will be an important hospital. If we are to recruit, and look after our personnel it is important to offer opportunities of rising to flag rank. These, of course, are not all full admirals. I used the word "admirals" in a more general sense, but most are well below the full rank.
  Mr. E. G. Willis: There are three admirals at the headquarters of the medical department. Do I understand that two are to go?
  Mr. Orr-Ewing: One is a dental admiral, who will remain at headquarters, one other will remain at headquarters, and one will go. We shall cut a further eleven flag officers in the next few years.
  Mr. Hynd: I am not too certain of the necessity to dangle gold braid before people in order to encourage them to remain in the Service. If it is a question of salary, that could be met in some other way, but the idea of dangling gold braid in this way does not seem to fit in with the modern conception of the Royal Navy. I would regard an admiral as being the highest ranking officer. I should like to feel, when I saw an admiral, that I was seeing someone really at the very top of the Navy, and not be disillusioned by hearing that he was a dentist—
  Sir J. Maitland: The hon. Gentleman seems to be worried about the dental admirals. Perhaps he is under a misapprehension. A rear-admiral does not look after the hinder parts of humanity.
  Mr. Emrys Hughes: An hon. Member was asking whether the chiropodist was an admiral.
  Mr. Hynd: An admiral involves an admiral's staff—flag lieutenants, secretaries and the like. If it is a question of salary or status for encouraging people to remain in the Service, I suggest that there might be a different way of doing it than by creating artificial ranks of that kind. The Civil Lord told us last year that the number of admirals was being run down fairly fast. I give him full credit for reducing the number by eleven. I do not know whether he regards that as being fast, but I hope that he will keep up the pace and give us even better news next year.
  The Navy has 100,000 men and women, or 2,000 fewer than last year, but we also see from the Estimates that there is a civil staff of 144,200, or 200 more than last year. This is a substantial outsize tail even for a fairly big dog. One hon. Member has mentioned that the Navy is two-thirds shore-based. Whilst we realise that there must be a number of shore-based people behind a sea-going Fleet, that number seems to me to be out of proportion to the size of the sea-going Navy.
  I sometimes wonder whether tasks are not being deliberately invented to keep the Navy busy between wars. Possibly, some of the visits are done to keep ships afloat and to give people so many seagoing hours.
  Mr. F. H. Burden: We must all look upon this in a rather different way from when we were in the Services. Nowadays, men go into the Fighting Services to carry out the duties of those Services and not to do so much of the carrying of water and the hewing of wood. The only way to maintain the establishment of the fighting side of the Services is to delegate to civilians as many as possible of the menial tasks connected with barrack cleaning and the like, which formerly was done by men in the Navy as well as in the other Services.
  Mr. Hynd: Perhaps the hon. Member will think, for example, about how many man hours are spent in practice for the naval gun race at the Royal Tournament. When the hon. Member for St. Ives (Mr. G. R. Howard) tells us that minesweepers are to be exercised

  1815
  with fishery protection vessels, I wonder what minesweeping has to do with fishery protection.
  Mr. G. R. Howard: It is not minesweeping, but it is the same type of ship which goes to protect our fishing vessels to see that foreigners do not come inside the three-mile limit. This entails a good deal of knowledge and expert navigation. If a "trot of pots" is found just outside the three-mile limit, one must be sure that it is outside and not inside the limit. This is the type of vessel which today is readily used for fishery protection. That is why I referred to these vessels.
  Mr. Hynd: I am getting the answers to some of my questions, but it is strange to read in the Memorandum about coastal inshore minesweepers operating with the Fishery Protection Squadron.
  Let me get down to one or two other questions about the use of manpower and whether we need all these people in the Navy. The Memorandum tells us that there is a quota of frigates in certain parts of the globe and we are given an interesting map. There is a quota of frigates, apparently, at Hong Kong, among other places. I wonder how many naval people there are still at Hong Kong. I know that the naval base there has been reduced to a very small area of water, but I was there recently and saw quite a lot of buildings which, I was told, were Admiralty buildings and residences. I wonder whether there is not a hang-over there which could be cleaned up a little quicker. Whilst we are not told—and I do not suppose we should be told—exactly how many frigates are there, I imagine that the number is fairly small. Perhaps there are too many nice little naval jobs still waiting to be cleaned up at Hong Kong and a few buildings to be released.
  Why does the map show us that there are submarine squadrons in Canada and Australia? I asked one of my hon. Friends this question today and I was told that they were there for training purposes, but is that really necessary nowadays? The hon. Member for St. Ives quoted from the Memorandum about the growing strength of Commonwealth and colonial navies. I intended
  1816
  to do the same, but I wanted to draw a rather different lesson from it. The hon. Member for St. Ives wondered whether we were giving these Commonwealth and colonial navies enough help. I want to put the question the other way round. Are they giving us enough help? Now that they have expanded to a fair size, I imagine that it is no longer necessary for us to keep submarine squadrons in Canada and Australia at what must be considerable expense because of the long distance.
  Perhaps some of the tasks that the Navy formerly fulfilled in different parts of the world, particularly around the Commonwealth, might be undertaken by some of the Commonwealth and colonial navies. Indeed, they might regard it as a compliment if we suggested that they should do so. I know that this would not please some of the officers of the Royal Navy, who, perhaps, find it rather pleasant to be stationed at some of those places. That, however, is one of the jobs that the Civil Lord must face.
  When the Civil Lord told us that there was no lessening of the traditional tasks of the Navy I am afraid that the voice was his own but that the words were those of the Board of Admiralty. I beg to differ from the hon. Gentleman. I think that there is a considerable lessening of the traditional rôle of the Navy because, for example, of the growth of the Commonwealth and colonial navies. Similarly, when we joined N.A.T.O., in addition to the desire for collective security we had the idea that by combining our defence forces under N.A.T.O., we would enjoy a certain amount of economy. Instead of that, by going into N.A.T.O. we are spending more money. Why? Can we not arrange things with our allies in N.A.T.O. so that they share some of these traditional tasks of the Royal Navy and save us a little money in that way?
  I thoroughly agree with my right hon. Friend the Member for West Bromwich (Mr. Dugdale) about the peacetime rôle of the Navy to keep the peace. My right hon. Friend went as far as to say that that was even more important than the Navy's possible rôle in war. I am not sure that I agree entirely, but I remember being in Trieste in the troubled days at the end of the war when there was likely one day to be a great deal of civil disturbance. One night, I went to

  1817
  bed wondering whether it would be safe to get up in the morning. When I looked out of my hotel window in the morning, I found a British battleship within yards of the hotel window. I was never so pleased to see the British flag in all my life, but I should have been equally pleased to see an American flag on that ship. [Hoist. MEMBERS: "No."] Certainly. The Americans are our allies in N.A.T.O. and they should be sharing the task of keeping the peace of the world. That is something that should be considered.
  Do not let us get silly about the business of waving the Union Jack. By all means, let us give every credit for what the Navy does in that way, but it is not our job entirely. I suggest that by being members of N.A.T.O. and of the Commonwealth, we should be in a position to run down some of these traditional tasks of the Navy and save a little bit of money by other people taking over part of the burden.
  As to whether the Navy would have a less important task in a nuclear war, I have vividly in mind a book which read recently called On the Beach. The story was also filmed. The rôle of the Navy as shown in that film was not a very glorious one. It finished by the last submarine being sunk by its own crew. That might have been a wild exaggeration and a flight of imagination on the part of the author, but at least there may prove to be an element of truth in it.
  Several hon. Members have referred to the future rôle of aircraft carriers. I speak with reserve, but when I am told by naval experts that the carrier is the capital ship of the future, and when the Civil Lord told us today that carriers remain an absolute necessity, I question that. As a layman, it seems to me that the aircraft carrier is far too big a target. We have been told today about the large number of Russian submarines. The Civil Lord mentioned that Hitler had fifty in 1939 and that they did not include atomic submarines. They certainly did not include any Polaris submarines. Are we sure that our gigantic aircraft carriers are immune from destruction by that vast fleet of submarines? I am not at all happy about it. Even if they are immune from air attack, which I am not at all happy about, they are far too vulnerable and they require very large
  1818
  crews. I wonder why the Russians do not seem to have any aircraft carriers. Have they any?
  Mr. Emrys Hughes: None.
  Mr. Hynd: Has the Admiralty asked itself why the Russians do not have any aircraft carriers? It cannot be because they do not know how to build them. All this is worth thinking about. We must not simply accept the conclusion that aircraft carriers are the capital ships of the future.
  Looking at the Estimates, I noticed that while there is a new aircraft carrier called the "Leviathan", which has been launched but is not yet in service, no others appear to be under construction. Is there any significance in this? It may be that the Admiralty has begun to turn the matter over on the lines I have suggested.
  Other hon. Members wish to speak and I must not ramble on. I cannot conclude, however, without referring to the other matter mentioned by my right hon. Friend the Member for West Bromwich: that is, the visit to South Africa of H.M.S. "Victorious". I hope that the feeling which has been shown everywhere about the discrimination against some of the coloured members of the crew of that ship will be taken to heart.
  Mr. C. Ian Orr-Ewing: There was no discrimination.
  Mr. Hynd: There was no discrimination. because the Admiralty did not send the coloured members of the crew, apart from a few who had relatives there. The fact that the Admiralty had to make that decision is rather degrading. I should not have thought that we would be in the position that we had to take notice of a thing like that. I am surprised that the Admiralty—
  Mr. G. R. Howard: I hope that the hon. Member and his hon. Friends will weigh their words carefully in this matter. Very often, what is said in the House of Commons is read in ships far more than people think. Although I know that it was said sincerely, a lot of sailors might get the impression that hon. Members opposite did not want them to have shore leave while they were in South Africa.
  Mr. Hynd: The Civil Lord told us that a high degree of intelligence was required in recruits for the Navy and I

  1819
  cannot imagine that anyone in the Navy would read into what I have said the imputation made by the hon. Member for St. Ives. The hon. Member and I were both Boy Scouts. We believe that a scout is a friend to all and a brother to every other scout, irrespective of his colour. I wish that that would apply in the Royal Navy. It does not apply when we send a ship to South Africa. That is what I am objecting to.
  I have said some of these things deliberately so that they will be read. I know that people read what is said in this House, and so they should. I am being deliberately provocative, and I hope I have emphasised at least one or two things to give the Admiralty food for thought.
  I sympathise with the Civil Lord, from my own short experience of the Admiralty, in the battles he must have with the rest of the Board of Admiralty. The Board is a tradition-ridden body which cannot believe that anything is good unless Nelson did it. I know the difficulties of some Ministers of the Labour Government in trying to get reforms past the Board.
  The hon. and gallant Member for Croydon, North-East advocated a merger between the Services, and the hon. Member for St. Ives talked about cross-operating between the Navy and the Air Force, but no one realises better than they do what resistance there will be because of inter-Service rivalry. They are up against something in trying to get the Board of Admiralty to co-operate with the other Services. They will find Service susceptibilities more prominent in the Admiralty than anywhere else.
  I wish the Navy nothing but the best, but the public will want to feel that it is getting full value for the money spent on the Navy, and that the Navy is being run with a view to the problems of 1961, and the possibilities of what the next war will be like, rather than on the lines of what Nelson thought and what the last war was like.
  6.53 p.m.
  Miss Joan Vickers: I am glad to have an opportunity of joining in this debate, especially as I failed to get into the defence debate. I am also glad on this occasion to follow
  1820
  the hon. Member for Accrington (Mr. H. Hynd), for I feel rather diffident—I am always a little nervous in addressing the House, anyway—in speaking on a subject on which so many other hon. Members have more experience.
  I want to follow one or two points which the hon. Member raised. I cannot agree with his description of the gun teams. We have an excellent one in Devonport. These teams do a great deal for the Navy. A member of them has to be physically fit, there is good discipline, they have to have the team spirit and a spirit of competition. It would be a pity to do away with these annual competitions, and the money which they raise from their performances goes to Service charities. It would be a great mistake to do away with this tradition of service.
  The hon. Gentleman also mentioned Hong Kong. The Admiralty should be congratulated on the way in which it has got rid of its buildings there. I gather that it has sold them to the Hong Kong City Council for £5 million.
  Mr. H. Hynd: That is the base.
  Miss Vickers: Yes, and the buildings around it. The Admiralty has done extremely well. The hon. and learned Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget) also referred to Hong Kong. He said we are there only by consent of the Chinese, but we have a treaty which has another thirty-one years to go. Are we looking forward to the time when that treaty comes to an end? Are we considering any other bases in the Far East, perhaps in the island of Borneo?
  I want to thank my hon. Friend the Civil Lord. He holds a very difficult post, being the only representative of the Admiralty to whom we can come to in this House, and I want to thank him for the personal interest in what I call "shore cases", which include such things as commutation of pensions. He has shown a very helpful spirit.
  We are grateful for the fact that the Royal Naval Hospital at Stonehouse, Devonport, is now allowed to take civilians. That may interest the hon. Member for Accrington, who was worried about the activities of medical admirals. It has certainly helped enormously to lessen the waiting lists at the civilian hospitals in the area. I

  1821
  also thank my hon. Friend for his battle to get the extra 6d. a day victualling alowance, it has been a great asset.
  There is also the rebuilding of the ratings' accommodation at Devonport. I raised this, among other things, last year. I am grateful that it is now to be done. Is it true, as reported in the local Press, that the Admiralty expects to spend over £1 million on these buildings? I think that it could have got adequate buildings for naval ratings at considerably less cost, especially as we have no idea of the exact extent to which they will be used.
  My hon. Friend the Civil Lord said that 4,000 recruits had been rejected because they were below the required standard of education. Would it be possible to take some of these men and give them educational classes when they are in the Navy? They do not want to join the Navy unless they are keen, and in businesses there are evening classes provided. I see that the Navy is putting up the educational vote by £254,000. Are we, perhaps, asking for too high a standard for stewards and cooks and others who are not on the technical side? Could we not educate them in the Service?
  Mr. C. Ian Orr-Ewing: We looked at this matter, but the trouble is that if we lower the standard too much we have to recycle people through the training machine. That would mean a costly and totally uneconomic training machine, and to some extent the stronger and even the medium brethren who would be in the same classes would be held back. We have to find a standard which will not handicap either the training machine or any other establishment. That has been the disadvantage of lowering our standards further.
  Miss Vickers: I am grateful for that reply. Perhaps my hon. Friend will let us know the exact standard required and will he circulate schools, so that they can put forward boys who have reached the standard and avoid disappointing those who do not come up to it? These latter could take extra classes before they actually volunteer if they knew what the standard must be.
  I would suggest that one factor in the recruitment of the officer class is the question of education for their children. The hon. Gentleman the Member for
  1822
  Accrington has been to Hong Kong and to Singapore and knows the number of people now stationed overseas. One of the difficulties is that the extra facilities for wives to join their husbands raises the question of education for their children. Children can go to three or four schools before the age of eight, and even five or six before the 11-plus, that is putting Service children at a great disadvantage.
  Mr. H. Hynd: I hope the hon. Lady is not confining her remarks to officers' children.
  Miss Vickers: I am at the moment. because it is officers' wives who have greater opportunities of going overseas and for shorter periods. If the other ranks take their wives overseas, they do so for a longer period, taking their children, and education is not such a difficulty as it is provided for them. I am talking of short-term periods in schools for children whose mothers wish to go overseas to join their husbands. It is necessary for them to start as day pupils at a primary school at the age of six or seven if they wish later on to go as boarders. I suggest that consideration should be given to providing further educational tax allowances for these children. An officer's career is often a short one. He probably retires at the age of 40 or 45, which does not give him a very long period in which to provide for the education of his children.
  I wish to refer particularly to the dockyards and to discuss, first, the dockyard at Singapore. During the Recess I had an opportunity of visiting that dockyard, and I was very impressed by the work going on there. I should like to know whether it is to be a permanent establishment. If it is to be permanent, I think that work could be done there to make it a far better base. It is not only a dockyard but a naval base. I was not at all pleased with the conditions of a great deal of the European and Asian quarters. Some of the conditions in the European quarters were very poor, and in the Asian quarters families were so overcrowded that they had to sleep under the houses. I have put forward the suggestion that these houses might be made larger, but apparently that is not considered to be practical.
  I want to put forward another scheme if this is to be a permanent base. Could

  1823
  we not ask the Singapore local authorities to build within the compound houses for these people, because, whatever happens, in time, I suppose, those houses would be handed over to them and they would reap the benefit? I think it is important that there should be better housing for the local personnel. For schooling and medical care, particularly for the children of the European civilian population working in the dockyard, tremendous distances have to be travelled. The children have to travel at least 16 miles to and from school. If this is to be a permanent base, I hope that consideration may be given for the dockyard to have its own school and better medical and dental facilities on the spot.
  I also want the Admiralty to provide for the rebuilding of the civilian club. I made certain suggestions that if it could not be rebuilt it would be perfectly easy to enclose and air-condition the existing building, and I gathered that the people would be happy with this arrangement. It would be more economical and, I think, much quicker than building a new club. I hope that this course may be taken in the near future.
  There is a very good apprenticeship scheme in the dockyard for the local people of Singapore, but when they have finished their apprenticeship they are not "tied" to work in the dockyard. In other Services, in Malaya, apprentices training by the Government are tied to the Services for five years. With the coming possibility of television in Singapore, I think that a great many of these apprentices will be needed. I suggest to my hon. Friend that there should be some scheme whereby these young people are tied for at least five years after they have finished their apprenticeship.
  I hope that consideration will be given to the rebuilding as quickly as possible of H.M.S. "Terror". I have raised this matter in Questions, and I feel that it is time that steps were taken quickly to make conditions better for the ratings who live there. It is a very hot climate and some of the ratings live there for a considerable time, a year or more, and they are living in overcrowded conditions. This applies also to a lesser extent to H.M.S. "Tamar" at Hong Kong.
  I am very grateful to the First Lord for visiting the dockyard in Devonport
  1824
  recently. I am also pleased that there has been some increase in the wages of the dockyard workers and that negotiations have gone so well. We are always hearing that the average wage of workers are £14 a week. The average wage, I gather, for skilled men craftsmen is only £11 10s. per week and for labourers £8 15s. I hope that negotiations will continue so that the people working in the yards may have a still better standard of living.
  Dockyards are headed by an admiral superintendent and it seems, with one exception at the present time, that this is the final job of his career. For approximately two years he has this very important job often looking after as many as 19,000 people. I suggest that it should not be the last job of his career. If we are to get the dockyards on a sound basis, it is necessary for the superintendent to stay there for more than two years, and I should like to see engineering admirals in this position.
  Ever since 1955 we have been told about the reorganisation of the dockyards. I quote from Command Paper 674 of the Navy Estimates for 1959–60. which states:
  "The major reorganisaltion in the Royal Dockyards is going ahead. This involves not only changing the management structure from a professional to a functional character, but also developing improved techniques for production and planning control—including financial control—which will affect the work of all dockyard employees."
  I have been able to speak in every debate on the Navy Estimates since 1955. We have heard about this reorganisation, and I regret to say that it does not seem to be getting on very well. I believe that the Admiralty has agreed that a review shall be undertaken of the necessary machinery of control and expenditure in the dockyard and that it should be widened to control the whole field of estimating and control the cost of products in the material departments. This was supposed to be instituted in the summer of 1960. I would ask my hon. Friend how this review is getting on and whether it is making some progress.
  The Minister of Health announced that he was to have a five-year programme for estimating in regard to the building of hospitals. I think that it would be far simpler if the Admiralty could have a similar system. If it had a five-year plan it might be possible to see ahead

  1825
  instead of having the estimates from year to year. We are also told that modern management techniques are to be introduced. I believe that a pilot scheme has been started at Chatham and one is starting at the smaller dockyard at Rossyth. It seems, however, to be taking a very long time. I feel that some progress should be made. Why cannot it be now extended to the larger dockyards and have manpower trained for the job? It is necessary to get people trained for this "new look" in the dockyards.
  It has been said on many occasions that many of the men of the Royal Navy are wasted in the dockyards. The Admiralty consider that one reason why it cannot do away with them is that there are no suitable civilians to take the place of the naval personnel and that they have not sufficient mechanical engineers within the Service. I should like to know if the Admiralty has tried to get them from without the Service. I believe that everyone in the Royal Navy wishes to serve in the Royal Navy and not necessarily in the dockyards. Is the Admiralty really trying to let these men go on active service and to get civilians in their place?
  We hear about Part II of the Nibell Report. I have never had much opportunity to discuss Part I. I should be very grateful if we could know what Part II contains and if it means that further constructive suggestions are being put forward for improving the dockyards. We are told that repairs in the dockyards are cheaper, and I hope that is the case. It is difficult to know if this is a fact as there is no means of making actual comparisons. It has been stated that one can neither place fixed price contracts nor estimate work in detail. To my mind, that is most unbusinesslike, and I hope that in the future reorganisation about which we were told it may be possible to have better estimating.
  In the Devonport dockyard which has been mentioned, H.M.S. "Eagle" is at the moment undergoing massive repairs which, we are told, will cost about £20 million. Naturally I am glad to have this work in the dockyard, but we must be realistic and wonder whether this is the right way of going about getting a new ship. When I have been round the ship I have been shocked at the manner in which the men have to work in it. I
  1826
  can only describe it as coolie-type labour. The question of manpower and the lack of automation for jobs in the dockyard should be considered as soon as possible. Surely it is possible in this age to make changes in the hard physical labour which has to be carried out.
  In repairs everything appears to have to be taken out of ships, repaired and put back again. For example, I am thinking particularly of radios. Surely in the workshops in the yard it is possible to mass-produce a certain proportion of the equipment needed in a ship so that it can be put in much more quickly. I do not suggest that that which is taken out should be scrapped. It should be possible to repair it and to put it in another ship. If there was a standard equipment ready to put into a ship it would be possible to repair it much more quickly.
  The drawings are not always made in the yard where the ship is being repaired, and sometimes they have to be changed. I gather that in certain ships the work is started even before all the drawings are finished. I should not have thought that that was a very good system.
  Here I wish to quote from the late Admiral of the Fleet Sir Charles Lambe:
  "I think it is clear that, unless we find some entirely new strategy, we shall go on needing aircraft carriers."
  If this is so, is it the Government's policy? Are we to continue patching up our aircraft carriers and are the Government basing their policy on this statement of Sir Charles Lambe? Are we to have the other type of ship which has been mentioned by the hon. Member for Northampton or concentrate on up-to-date aircraft carriers? Although H.M.S. "Eagle" has had a new angle deck, I understand that it is almost out of date. I am also told that in the new type of this ship the "island structure" will be moved from its position on the edge of the deck, where it is apparently vulnerable, to some other place and will have a narrower base. In fact, it is to be completely redesigned. Only the lower part and the angle deck of H.M.S. "Eagle" has yet been tackled. Are we to incorporate the new idea on this ship —I understand that it will take nearly another four years to finish—or are we

  1827
  to have something which is already out of date?
  I wish to say a word about the Royal Marines. I do not want to repeat what has been said about H.M.S. "Bulwark" and the efficiency of the Royal Marines, but the Royal Marines have a close connection with Plymouth and the surrounding districts. I was interested to hear that they will probably have combined exercises with the Artillery. We also have Artillery in the area, so this would work out very well. What we are worried about, however, is that no decision has been made about their being stationed in Plymouth in future. The Royal Marine Barracks at Stone-house, Devonport, a fine building, which I regret I had to draw attention to in the debate last year, incorporating a long room, theatre, and so on, have been empty for more than a year. If this building is not to be used for the Royal Marines, cannot it be put to some other use, because it is getting into a state of disrepair? I hope that it will be used, because Plymouth has been the home of the Royal Marines for a number of generations. I hope that a decision will be quickly made and that the building will be put in good order.
  As I was not able to speak during the defence debate, I should like to mention civil defence, if I am not out of order, because I regretted that civil defence was not mentioned at all during the defence debate. What training is given in the dockyard in civil defence? There is a great many personnel in Plymouth and they will be invaluable in time of need.
  I agree with the hon. and learned Member for Northampton that the Royal Navy still has a great part to play in "local troubles", as I think he called them. If we are to continue to have an effective Navy, it seems a pity that the sum spent on naval construction should be down by over £8 million.
  I should like to say how pleased I am that £24 million has been spent on the Commonwealth navies. These are very great assets, and the more we can co-operate with them the better it will be for all countries concerned.
  Finally, I am pleased Ito see that a naval attaché has been appointed to
  1828
  Indonesia. I hope that it will be possible to have further co-operation between the Indonesian Navy, which is in the process of building up, and the British Navy. We have a good base in Singapore. I hope that at some time in the future it will be possible to send a naval mission to Indonesia, because these islands geographically are very important to us, lying as they do near Singapore, and stretching to the north of Australia. The better our friendship with them the better it will be both for Malaya and Singapore.
  I am grateful for having been allowed to take part in the debate. What I have said was meant to be helpful, and I hope that the Navy will continue to be the foremost of our Services.
  7.17 p.m.
  Commander Harry Pursey: These Navy Estimates of £431 million must be considered against the background of three factors of primary importance: first, the total annual defence bill of £1,655 million secondly, nuclear weapons; and, thirdly, the fact that the Second World War ended over fifteen years ago. We ought by now to have made definite progress in disarmament and should have reduced these thousands of millions of pounds which annually are largely thrown away unnecessarily on armaments. is there no ceiling on the defence bill as there is on the National Health Service bill? The new savings to be made on the National Health Service will be largely cancelled out by the increase in defence costs. The shillings of the poor will be paying for increased armaments instead of improved health.
  My first question is: who is the potential aggressor, and what are the possible naval threats? The only potential aggressor is Russia, and, whatever its land and air threats, its naval threats are somewhat limited. First, Russia's naval forces are divided into four widely spaced areas—the Pacific, the Black Sea, the Baltic and the Arctic. It is practically impossible to concentrate them and an appreciable number of ships are required for local defence. The Black Sea forces would have considerable difficulty in getting out through the Bosphorus and the Dardanelles. It would not be easy to get out of the Baltic with the Germans watching. It is not easy Ito operate from

  1829
  the Arctic, particularly in the long winter months.
  There are no Russian battleships or aircraft carriers; only a few overseas cruisers and other surface craft which are unlikely to be used overseas. The Russian naval ace is the reputedly large number of submarines—450. However, some are of questionable value and others are defence purpose vessels. Again, these submarines are divided among the four areas and Brassey's Naval Annual, 1960, speculates the figures as being: in the Pacific, 120; the Black Sea, 60–80; the Baltic, 80–100, and the Arctic, 120–150. The Tory Party and Press scare of 450 Russian submarines to attack British ships is, therefore, nonsense. Reduced to one-third of that number and I take the higher figure of 150—
  Mr. Patrick Wall: Will the hon. Member agree that their ships operate throughout the world—the Pacific, Atlantic and Arctic?
  Commander Pursey: The main object of my speech is to deal with world-wide commitments and if the hon. Member will contain his soul in patience I hope to be able to assist him considerably. Admittedly, some of these submarines are nuclear vessels.
  Who are we supposed to be defending with our naval forces, with whom and what is our global naval policy? We are not defending our Commonwealth countries, as we were fifty or sixty years ago, because they are largely defending themselves, and in practically all our commitments we are supported by other naval forces, Commonwealth forces, our allies or both.
  The Minister of Defence, in opening the defence debate on Monday, spoke of "our world-wide commitments" and referred to the map in the White Paper. For Tory Ministers and hon. Members to talk of world-wide commitments today is only playing with lost empires like small boys playing with lead soldiers. Britain cannot, single-handed, defend the seven seas. That, obviously, is impossible. Nor is there any real reason why we should do so in this modern era of aircraft and high-speed movements. It is not the British task to be the policemen of the world. The obvious solution is that we must cut our unnecessary over-
  1830
  seas commitments to our limited economic resources.
  Tory Ministers and hon. Members, in this second Elizabethan era of aircraft and nuclear weapons, are thinking still in terms of the Victorian era of sailing ships of a century ago, when we had no R.A.F. or aircraft. In other words, as far as Russia is concerned, they are planning in terms of the Crimean and Baltic wars against Russia at a time when our warships cannot possibly get into either the Black Sea or the Baltic.
  The Defence White Paper deals with our contribution to N.A.T.O., CENTO, and S.E.A.T.O. but says practically nothing about our support from these three organisations. More important still is the fact that, although the maps in both the White Paper and the First Lord's Statement show our world-wide scattered forces, none of the Commonwealth naval forces is shown. This subject has been dealt with by the hon. Member for St. Ives (Mr. G. R. Howard) and also by one of my hon. Friends.
  I will go into it in a little more detail. In the main classes of ships—aircraft carriers, cruisers, destroyers and frigates—the Commonwealth navies, with their 118 of these vessels, have double the number of our own Navy of 63 vessels—even if not in the same classes. So we have two more equivalent additional navies largely flying the British flag. but nothing is said about them.
  The Government's failure to disclose essential information, to make a proper appreciation of our global position, amounts to "fudging the books" and is certainly misleading to the British public, who have to pay for these Estimates. Admittedly, our Estimates are only for our own ships, but the existence of these two other almost equivalent British navies should be on the record.
  The White Paper deals also with interdependence, and, in paragraph 23, states:
  "A narrow, nationalist policy for the choice and production of arms makes no sense today."
  A most important requirement, and one which would save millions of pounds, is the rationalisation of both commitments and forces; first, among Commonwealth navies; secondly, among allied navies; and, thirdly, especially among our own three Services: the Navy, the Army and the Air Force.

  1831
  We have the Commonwealth navies and the allied navies sitting and operating in a vacuum instead of working and considering combined commitments and resources. We have our own three Services and the Ministry of Defence sitting in a vacuum and working at their plans with little or no consideration for the other Services, or operating in conjunction with them with the idea of saving costs. We have the British, Commonwealth and allied navies all dealing with the same commitments and duplicating ships and efforts.
  The Navy is doing the same job as the Army with Commando forces. The R.A.F. is producing the same type of aircraft as the Navy—admittedly, for a different type of take-off, but with vast duplication and unnecessary expense. Our policy should be to think in terms of continents and oceans, and not isolated pockets such as Hong Kong and Singapore, which we could not even hold in the last war, and to allocate areas and commitments to our Commonwealth nations.
  Take the five continents: America, Australia, Africa, Asia and Europe. America is a United States and Canadian responsibility. There is no serious naval commitment or threat in the area and so no necessity for a separate naval allocation. The critical factor here is that the Canadian Navy totals about 50 major ships, including one aircraft carrier, 29 destroyers and 20 frigates, with 20,000 personnel, nearly 50 per cent, afloat. Admittedly, some ships are on the Pacific coast but even so, why cannot our small commitments in this area be transferred to Canada and the Canadian Navy provide the two frigates required for the West Indies station and the two frigates required for the South American station? This would enable the Admiralty to abolish those two tu'penny ha'penny stations.
  The defence of Australia and New Zealand is the responsibility of their own Governments, not ours, and they have about 40 major ships available, including two aircraft carriers. There is no British naval commitment or threat in Africa that should need a separate allocation. South Africa has its own navy and other nations are building their own naval forces. Moreover, there is no major naval commitment in Asia. There is no
  1832
  naval threat, therefore, no need for a separate naval allocation. The result is that no major naval commitment or serious demand for a British naval allocation exists in four out of the five continents. I will deal with Europe later.
  We come now to the five oceans, the Arctic, the Antarctic, the Pacific, the Indian, and the Atlantic. There is no naval commitment or threat in the Arctic or the Antarctic and there is no need for any special naval allocation there. In fact, there is none. The Pacific should be an American and Canadian responsibility, supported by Australia and New Zealand. The Indian Ocean has no major British commitment or threat. The requirements for its defence are, therefore, small and the responsibility of the seaborne nations. In any event, Britain cannot, single-handed, stage a serious naval defensive or offensive operation East of Gibraltar, as was shown by the Tory Government's Suez Canal fiasco.
  Moreover, let there be no misunderstanding that in any future global war there is no certainty—in fact, there is very much the reverse—of our ships being able to pass through the Suez Canal. Consequently, they would not be able to go through the Mediterranean. The critical factor here, however, is that the Commonwealth or ex-Commonwealth nations—Australia, New Zealand, India, Pakistan and Ceylon—have 68 of the four major classes of warships, which is more in number than the British Navy, and these ships include three aircraft carriers.
  Only today hon. Members will have received a CENTO pamphlet showing the activities of the Pakistan Navy in a recent combined exercise. Surely the British commitments in the East from Aden to Hong Kong should be transferred to the Commonwealth navies, and the two minor British naval commands in the Arabian Sea and Far Eastern stations should be abolished. If someone wants ships to go to Hong Kong let them be obtained from Australia and New Zealand who are concerned with defence in that area.
  Here, I should make it quite clear that I am not arguing that British ships should not visit Commonwealth areas. I am arguing that the commitments should be Commonwealth commitments and that when our ships pay visits they

  1833
  should be exchange visits with local vessels. The naval commitments should be local commitments. Britain, therefore, has no major naval commitment and there is no actual naval threat in four of the five oceans. I have dealt with four continents and with four oceans, so I am not doing too badly up to now.
  On this appreciation of the British global naval situation we are left with major naval problems in only one continent—Europe—and one ocean, the North Atlantic including, of course, the North Sea and the English Channel and surrounding areas. But even in these limited areas the Navy is supported by N.A.T.O. ships and aircraft and the Royal Air Force. The 64,000-ton question— [Laughter.] I mean, of course, the 64,000 dollar question—I am glad to see that hon. Members are paying attention—is what is the present justification for the vast aircraft carriers and their colossal expense and also of the smaller Commando carriers. Is it simply a question of keeping up with the Joneses—the Americans? [HON. MEMBERS: "The Kennedys."] I am dealing with the Joneses in America.
  We have been told that these ships cost to build £20 million apiece for the big ones and £10 million for the smaller ones and millions more to convert and maintain. The hon. Lady the Member for Plymouth, Devonport (Miss Vickers) mentioned H.M.S. "Eagle". I remember that I served in the previous "Eagle", or the one before that. She said that H.M.S. "Eagle" will have another £20 million spent on her for refitting. In these days, what other crazy action is there left to the Admiralty except to pour these millions down the sink?
  What is the task of the big carrier in the unlikely event of war with Russia? Reference has been made in the debate to its being the battleship of the future. Anybody with any knowledge at all of naval forces knows that that is nonsense. In fact, there is no rôle for the large carrier in operations in Europe. As has been stated, these ships are the most vulnerable ships in the Navy. They could be sunk by one submarine or one aircraft attack. They carry too many eggs in one basket. There is no British fleet for them to accompany. They would not
  1834
  be used for convoys and they dare not approach the Russian Arctic areas. Are they intended for a strike force? If so, where, with what and to attack what? There is nothing in the plans for a normal conventional war with Russia.
  Why have the Commando carriers? We are to have one in the Mediterranean and one farther East, and others are to be built. Marines are to do the job previously done by soldiers. My right hon. Friend the Member for West Bromwich (Mr. Dugdale) has argued that if the Army cannot recruit soldiers, and the Navy can recruit marines, why not let the marines take over the Army's job? I do not mind who does the job as long as we have an overall reduction of millions of pounds. But I should like to inform my right hon. Friend and the Committee that the marines will not join to do wholly a soldier's job. Marines have "cushy" jobs in ships from which they then very effectively carry out their other duties, but any question of being turned over to the Army and working with the Army under Army instructions is out of the question. There is the argument about the Navy taking over some of our overseas commitments. That is all very well, but it is a job for the Commonwealth navies to take over.
  The great argument is for mobility. Mobility to go where? An aircraft force is the best example of a mobile force. Ministers refer, in documents and speeches, to brush fires and bush fires. I served in three aircraft carriers, an ex-battleship, the "Eagle", and two seaplane carriers, the last two on active service. I took part in the first R.A.F. war. The ship had to take the men and their aircraft to Somaliland before they could start. The object was to bomb the "mad Mullah" and his followers as the prelude to granting the country independence later. I received the African Service Medal for this operation.
  After a spell in the Black Sea fighting for and against the Russians in the civil war—so I know something about that area and the Russians—I took part in another R.A.F. brush fire campaign. The R.A.F. wanted some aircraft in "Mespot" to quell the natives. The planes were at Constantinople, but no one would risk flying them the short journey overland in case they came down and the natives dealt

  1835
  with them. So the "Ark Royal", the first seaplane carrier, in which I was serving at that time, landed her naval aircraft at Constantinople, embarked the R.A.F. land machines and then started on a voyage through the Mediterranean, the Suez Canal, round Aden and up the Persian Gulf to Basra. That is a typical example of mobility. The full speed of that ship was eight knots, and it took us weeks to get there, when the aircraft ought to have flown from Constantinople to Basra.
  We did not get a medal that time. I do not know why. It was the same old firm of Carter Paterson for the R.A.F. This time, however, I do not believe that any natives were killed, so I suppose that that was the reason for no medals. Mesopotamia later had independence without the bombing. The ship was recalled to England empty, and I never heard what happened to the seaplanes we left at Constantinople.
  Are Tory Ministers now thinking of using Commando carriers or our other air and land forces to attack natives again in their own countries? If so, they have another think coming. This country will not stand for that sort of nonsense again. It is not our business to interfere in everybody else's business, whether it concerns us or not. The old Victorian idea of giving them a whiff of grapeshot has gone for all time.
  Having surveyed the world— [Laughter.] Well, it is high time that this was done by someone. This is the position, but no Minister will tell us because we should want to reduce the Defence Estimates by 50 per cent. if he did.
  Having surveyed the world and dealt with only some of the problems, I turn now to the fifth continent, Europe, and the fifth ocean, the Atlantic. There are three major naval problems in the unlikely event of conventional war in Europe: (1) Russian surface ships: (2) protection for supplies to our forces on the Continent: (3) protection for supplies to Britain. First, surface ship attacks. From where, and at what? Russian Baltic forces are unlikely to emerge and Arctic forces are likely to be retained mainly for defensive purposes. Any emergers would be located by aircraft and other means and dealt with. So that is written off.
  Channel crossings. There would be no surface ship threat and it is doubtful
  1836
  whether Russian submarines could survive and pass the Straits of Dover. Aircraft would deal with aircraft and submarines, and the naval escorts would be small craft. The Russian submarine menace. One cardinal principle is never to underestimate one's enemy. On the other hand, it would be just as great folly to over-exaggerate the Russian submarine menace and so be scared out of our wits by a bogey.
  Speaking for myself alone, I am of opinion that Britain and her allies could master the Russian submarines, conventional and nuclear, with aircraft, surface ships, submarines, mines and other counter-measures which I shall not disclose.
  Mr. Rankin: Secrets?
  Commander Pursey: Yes, there are things like that. After all, I have been in touch with the Russians on occasions. I know what they have and I know what can be done.
  Mr. F. A. Burden: What about the Grand National?
  Commander Pursey: Does the hon. Member wish to intervene?
  Mr. Burden: I was wondering whether the hon. and gallant Member might have been in touch with the Russians about whether their horses might do some good in the Grand National.
  Commander Pursey: Let us assume the worst, that these submarines could not be mastered with conventional naval weapons and the position became one of life or death to this country or Russian occupation. How long would it be before we resorted to nuclear weapons in self-defence to avoid defeat, or worse? The Russian leaders in the Kremlin realise that the nation which starts a war does not necessarily end it. They appreciate, also, that a conventional war may lead to a nuclear war. So we can reverse the sequence. No nuclear war. No conventional war. No war. It is as easy as that.
  I am fortified in this argument by the words which the Minister of Defence quoted on Monday from something said by the right hon. Member for Woodford (Sir W. Churchill):
  "…I have sometimes the odd thought that, with the advance of destructive weapons which

  1837
  enable everyone to kill everyone else, no one will kill anyone." —[OFFICIAL REPORT, 27th February, 1961; Vol. 635, c. 1201.]
  In my opinion, Russia could have overrun Europe or Asia at any time during the last fifteen years. Why has she not done so? The usual answer is to say, "Because of the deterrent". In my submission, the reason is that America is on the Continent of Europe and pledged to engage if Russia attacks. Had America been in Europe in 1914 and 1939, there would probably have been no First World War or Second World War.
  In any case, the Admiralty is not seriously expecting a war, because it has its ships scattered all over the world with no chance of immediate concentration. For example, with the number of submarines shown as 30, it has the Fourth Squadron in Australia, the Sixth in Canada and the Tenth at Hong Kong They could not be placed farther apart or farther from England. Apparently. we do not want them. The admirals are simply playing chess on the world chessboard with no appreciation of the money being frittered away by their pawns chasing all over the seven seas.
  It is not my task—not today, at any rate—to provide all the answers to all the naval questions. I hope that I have shown that the Government largely exaggerate our overseas commitments and that these should largely be transferred to Commonwealth countries. I hope that I have shown, also, that our proper commitments at home do not require either the vastly expensive large aircraft carriers or the vastly expensive nuclear submarines. The Government, therefore, should give the Admiralty the choice of either the large aircraft carriers or the nuclear submarines—not both. The carriers should be the first to go. What would be the result? The present surface ship fleet of cruisers, frigates, destroyers, etc., would be ample, with our allies, for any possible conventional warlike operations in this second Elizabethan era and nuclear age.
  My final point—the Committee will be glad to hear the word "final"—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] I am much obliged—relates to disarmament. The Government pay lip-service to diarmament, saying, in the White Paper, that they will
  "press for this by all means in their power".
  1838
  In fact, they are content to go on with endless discussions, making no headway, pumping money into armament firms, big business making big money, and all the rest, instead of making realistic proposals which would stir the imagination of the world, reduce arms expenditure by many millions of pounds, and bring hope to many underpaid people in this country and throughout the world.
  Why do not the Government advocate the complete abolition of all submarines, conventional and nuclear? There is no reason why any nation should now have these vessels. By far the largest number is in the hands of the three great Powers, America, Russia and ourselves. It should be easy to reach agreement and dispose of them. The whole thing would be quite easy to check. Why not agree to scrap the lot, sail them all out into the Atlantic and sink them 100 fathoms deep in Davey Jones's locker? What vast savings could be made, not only in the cost of submarines, but in the cost of the vast and expensive antisubmarine measures in which we and other countries engage.
  I appreciate the argument about the advantage of Polaris submarines and their missiles, but when the Russians have them the advantages will largely be cancelled out and both sides will be little better off, relatively speaking. I appreciate, also, the argument that nuclear propulsion should be developed. The answer is that the millions now allocated for nuclear submarines should be used for the development of nuclear merchant ships for peaceful instead of warlike purposes. For example, the Russians have a nuclear icebreaker.
  It is no good saying that this is nonsense. The nations are bogged down trying to compete in everything—naval, air and military armaments. Let the British Government take the one specific step which is clear cut. It could be checked, because the ports could be supervised as easily as anything else, and if we could get rid of submarines and with them the anti-submarine measures and the aircraft carriers, we could cut the Navy Estimates by half and the R.A.F. Estimates by a considerable amount, and we should be able to devote that money in millions to far more useful purposes.

  1839
  It is of supreme importance for our survival as a nation and the improvement of the standard of living of the poorer people in this country that our Navy and military and air problems should be given a new, forward-looking, realistic investigation in the terms of the 1960s and 1970s on the lines which I have advocated and with the object of vastly reducing arms expenditure instead of increasing it. Unless that is done by Britain and, for that matter, America, Russia will win the economic war without even firing a red Very light as a warning signal of success.
  7.57 p.m.
  Mr. Stratton Mills: It is a great pleasure to follow the hon. and gallant Member for Kingston upon Hull, East (Commander Pursey), who brings a very specialised knowledge to these debates and to whom the Committee always listens with great attention. We got our money's worth from him today, although I was a little disappointed that he did not refer to a subject which I know to be close to his heart, namely, spectacles.
  I do not intend to cross swords with the hon. and gallant Gentleman, as my service in the Navy was very limited, being merely in the form of a sea cadet. I served for a short time in the aircraft carrier "Theseus", namely, for seven days, during which period we were moored in Portsmouth Harbour the whole time. I apologise to the Committee that I have a very bad cold and that my voice is droning more than usual, but I will be brief.
  This has been a wide-ranging debate and I shall deal merely with matters which arise under Vote 8, namely, the new shipbuilding and refitting now going on, particularly as it affects Belfast. I will begin by saying, on behalf of the 12 Ulster Unionist Members, that I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Civil Lord. We have had many meetings with him in recent months and he has always been most helpful and courteous and fair in the allocation of work which he has sent to Belfast. We are looking forward to his visit to the Royal Navy Yard at Sydenham which he is to make on Saturday of this week, and I am glad to note that he has recently transferred work to that yard from other yards.
  1840
  The situation facing the shipbuilding industry in Belfast is very serious. There is a labour force of 20,000, plus a varying figure of sub-contractors. Within the next three of four months, 7,000 of those men, plus sub-contractors, will be unemployed. Hon. Members representing English constituencies may find the situation difficult to envisage, but we are to have one-third of our total labour force unemployed.
  Today, there was a gigantic demonstration with marching through the streets of Belfast to coincide with the debate, and I have heard that 15,000 to 20,000 people took part in that demonstration, which was organised by the trade unions and which was reminiscent of the Jarrow marches in the 1930s. It underlines the serious situation facing the industry in Belfast. The tragic part is that unlike other shipbuilding areas, we have no other form of alternative engineering employment.
  Mr. Willis: On a point of order. Is this discussion on the shipbuilding industry in order, and if so, will other hon. Members be entitled to make speeches about the shipbuilding industry in their constituencies?
  The Temporary Chairman (Mr. George Thomas): The hon. Member will be in order in referring to naval repairs which are covered by the Estimates. I know that he will bear that in mind.
  Mr. Rankin: Further to that point of order. Is it not the case that in previous years it has been decided that that is within the rules of order so long as we deal with shipbuilding repairs, maintenance, and so on, as mentioned in Vote 8?
  The Temporary Chairman: The hon. Member has underlined what I inadequately attempted to say.
  Mr. Stratton Mills: I was merely briefly giving an introductory background which I thought would be of interest to the Committee, but I will not impose further on your good nature, Mr. Thomas.
  It is commonly said in Belfast that the Admiralty does not give Northern Ireland its fair share of Admiralty work, but I repudiate that without hesitation. We have recently been given the figure that 24·9 per cent. of the labour force in Belfast is employed on Admiralty

  1841
  work, while the national average is only 8 per cent. That latter figure somewhat distorts the situation and I hope that my hon. Friend will not too much rely upon it, because many yards in Britain coming within the national average are by no means concerned with naval work, and there is a substantial amount of naval work in the Belfast yards which is now just coming to a conclusion. For example, a ship being built for the Indian Navy, "Vibrant", is soon to be finished, and within three months the figure will be reduced from 24·9 per cent. to about 10 or 15 per cent., so that the situation will become more serious.
  On 7th March, 1960, my hon. Friend the Civil Lord, in a debate on the Navy Estimates, made it clear that the Admiralty intended to have the bulk of its work done by competitive tender and he said:
  "In doing so, the main considerations will he price and delivery dates; but we shall, naturally, take into account the employment factor".—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 7th March, 1960; Vol 619, c. 41.]
  My hon. Friend reiterated this afternoon that the competitive background would be predominant, but he did not re-emphasise that the employment factor would be considered, and I would be grateful if, in winding up the debate, he could reaffirm that employment as well as strictly competitive factors will play an important part in his consideration.
  I want, briefly, to refer to some of the new work mentioned in the Estimates, especially building and refit work. The total is about £109 million gross, or £97 million net, the total amount going out to open contract in this year. I welcome the reference in the excellent Explanatory Statement on the Estimates to the Seacat missile. It says:
  "This close range guided weapon system has been ship-fitted for sea trials, and firings of fully guided missiles against drone targets have started. Seacat will become the standard close range naval anti-aircraft weapon."
  This weapon is manufactured in Belfast and we greatly welcome its now extensive use and the fact that orders have been received from Sweden and possibly from N.A.T.O. countries as well as Australia and New Zealand.
  I should like to examine the details of the new work mentioned in the Estimates. I welcome the reference to
  1842
  two new guided missile destroyers. Four of these ships are now being built in Britain and one in Belfast. I hope that when the time comes we may be able to put in a competitive tender and use the skill which has been acquired in the construction of that now being built, the "Kent", the keel of which was laid in March, 1960.
  I also welcome the announcement about the assault ships. The hon. and learned Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget) rightly emphasised the tremendous future of these ships in the small type of brush fire operation, and I hope that it will be possible to consider some of this pioneer work being done in the Belfast yards to get them over this difficult period.
  Will my hon. Friend deal with conversion and re-equipment work? I am not clear from the Estimates, although I have searched diligently, what proportion of that work is being done and exactly what is in mind for detailing that programme. On behalf of the 12 Ulster Unionist Members. I ask my hon. Friend carefully to re-examine the whole situation, because this is short-term work to get over a difficult period.
  The Belfast shipyards are facing difficult times, although other yards have similar problems which I do not wish to minimise. I appreciate that the amount of naval work now in circulation employs only 8 per cent. of the total labour force in British shipyards and that there is, therefore, no magic wand which my hon. Friend can wave to help us over this difficult period. We take the view that in the long term the yards will have to find the answer for themselves. I make no bones about that.
  I do not ask my hon. Friend to provide some form of permanent relief to get our industry over this difficult time. But I would ask that he throw a lifebelt to us as a matter of great urgency, in view of the impending chaos. I appreciate that one cannot expect him to announce a vast series of orders, welcome as that would be. It would be impracticable coming from that Dispatch Box. But on behalf of the 12 Ulster Unionist Members, I ask for an assurance that he is fully aware of the difficulties of Belfast and that he will view them with great sympathy.
  8.10 p.m.
  Mr. A. C. Manuel: I hope the hon. Member for Belfast, North (Mr. Stratton Mills) will forgive me if I do not follow him in his survey of the shipbuilding problems of Belfast and the possibility of orders resulting from his speech. I ask hon. Members on both sides of the Committee to forgive me if I do not follow the general trend of the debate which has ranged over what ought to be our future policy for the Navy. I wish to use this occasion—I think it right that hon. Members should have an opportunity to do so—to raise a constituency problem which has given me much worry and concern over the past few years.
  I have been trying to find from the Estimates what action, if any, is to be taken this year to deal with bad housing conditions in the married quarters at the Admiralty Depot at Beith in my constituency. Perhaps there may be something of value to me buried away in these Votes, but it is hard to discover. The Explanatory Notes to Vote 10 are headed:
  "Works, Building, Machinery and Repairs at Home and Abroad."
  The first paragraph reads:
  "This Vote provides for expenditure on works, buildings, docks, machinery and repairs at home and abroad, including the cost of superintendence, purchase and rent of lands and buildings and grants towards the cost of works, and for repayment with interest of sums issued from the Consolidated Fund under the Armed Forces (Housing Loans) Acts, 1949 and 1958."
  There may be something buried there. Paragraph 4 of the same Notes read:
  "Provision is made under Subhead B for the cost of construction of married quarters, with the exception of those to be financed from the Consolidated Fund under the provisions of the Armed Forces (Housing Loans) Acts, 1949 and 1958 which are provided under Vote 14."
  Under Subhead B I notice that for 1961–62 there is a decrease of £293,000. Much less than that amount would resolve my problem, and I hope that this decrease does not mean that we are restricting necessary housing work at home for the benefit of personnel working in Admiralty Departments.
  In Vote 14 the first paragraph of the Explanatory Notes reads:
  "This Vote provides for expenditure incurred under the Armed Forces (Housing
  1844
  Loans) Acts, 1949 and 1958, in building married quarters for personnel at certain naval establishments in Great Britain."
  I hope that we shall be told that there is something buried in this Vote which will be of benefit.
  I wish to tell the Committee about this problem over which I have had a lengthy correspondence with the Civil Lord. The married quarters at Beith are old army huts built during the last war. They are brick-built but with no cement roughcast, and they were never meant to be used for human habitation for such a long period. The huts are damp and, in my opinion, quite unsuitable for people to live in. The residents are sure that the colds and other illnesses from which they suffer, and which especially affect the children, result from the conditions under which they have to live. There are narrow corridors in these huts where the dampness pervades, and it is difficult to get furniture into the rooms which have been constructed. The people who live there are long suffering and are living under extremely trying conditions. The crowning injustice was the increasing of the rents by the Admiralty and that action was taken under the Rent Act.
  I wish to give an idea of what is an average rent and the increases which have been made, and to do so I have selected six residences of different sizes. This information has been sent to me by the chairman of the tenants' association, and I think that things have come to a sorry pass when conditions are such that it is necessary to have a tenants' association in connection with property owned by the Admiralty. For residence No. 5 the old rent was £3 7s. 8d. per month and the new rent is £6 12s. 8d. For residence No. 12 it was £3 12s. and the new rent is £6 12s. It will be seen that the increases are substantial and, as I have said, that action was taken under the Rent Act. For residence No. 22 the rent was £4 16s. and the new rent is £6 6s. For residence No. 47 the old rent was £3 18s. 4d. and the new rent is £6 12s. 8d.; residence No. 7 the old rent was £4 4s. 7d. and the new rent is £5 2s. 8d., and for residence No. 46 the old rent was £3 18s. 4d. and the new rent is £5 2s. 3d. I have quoted those rents because in the correspondence I have had with the Civil Lord he has

  1845
  informed me that he cannot do much about it. I have had no real satisfaction.
  The only step which might be taken is to get these people out of the huts altogether and provide houses for them for which the Admiralty could justify rents being charged. I ask the hon. Gentleman to take note of the fact that the new rating and valuation legislation takes effect in Scotland as from May. These unfit huts will be assessed by the county assessor, if he considers them of any value at all. We may find that a saving results because there will be a loss of rateable value and of course the tenants pay the rates. What will be the position if the valuer assesses these huts at a very much lower figure than the present one? The rates will be paid on the actual new valuation assessment. I think that here we surely have a case in which rentals ought to be considerably reduced.
  I want to ask the Civil Lord quite definitely what steps he intends to take to rehouse these workers. The Civil Lord has taken up the matter with the Ayrshire County Council, and I have assisted in what way I could, and we have been instrumental in obtaining the promise of ten houses, but, of course, we need another 40 or 50, I should say, to clear up the problem. I understand that the Admiralty are very keen that the Ayrshire County Council should build these houses by getting an allocation over and above what would have been given for the normal housing requirements in the Beith area.
  I want to tell the Civil Lord that, even if he finds out that the local authority—the Ayrshire County Council—finds that its own commitments do not allow it to do so—because it has a very heavy housing commitment—that would not relieve the Admiralty of its responsibilities in connection with the replacement of these unfit dwellings. As it is clearly shown in Votes 10 and 14 that the Admiralty can spend money in providing married quarters for civilian personnel, I think the Civil Lord must squarely face the problem now confronting him, and certainly confronting me as the Member of Parliament for the constituency concerned.
  1846
  I urge him to face that problem, and I think that if the local authority cannot help, he must then decide that the Admiralty must provide suitable dwellings for these families under its care. I hope that today the Civil Lord may have some sort of message of hope that I can take to these families, who are suffering illness and great inconvenience and living in isolation where they are presently housed. I hope that the Civil Lord will be able to justify some action being taken within the course of this year and covered by these Navy Estimates to solve what has been a worrying problem for a long time.
  8.23 p.m.
  Mr. Bryant Godman Irvine: I am well aware that it is the tradition of this Committee that subsequent speakers in debate make their comments upon the speech of the hon. Member who has just preceded them. As I represent a Sussex constituency, I am wondering whether you, Mr. Thomas, selected me because I represent a constituency which is about as far away from Scotland as it could possibly be. Even though I have had the privilege of serving on the Scottish Grand Committee for a very long period, I feel that I am hardly competent to make any comments whatever on the speech of the hon. Member for Central Ayrshire (Mr. Manuel).
  As there are many hon. Members who would still like to speak, I should like to concentrate upon three major points and one small one which I want to put to the Civil Lord. May I, first, apologise to him for the fact that I was unable to hear what he said in the early part of the afternoon, because I was serving elsewhere on a Select Committee. If, therefore, any of the matters I raise have already been dealt with, I know that he will be able to explain that to me skilfully when the time comes.
  The first point is one which I have raised before. It concerns the amount of information which is available to Members of Parliament when they come to a debate such as this. I congratulate my hon. Friend on the attractive way in which the comments on the Estimates this year have been presented. I think that they have given us a much better idea than has been available in the past. One of the things which we all have to do, as Members of Parliament, is to try

  1847
  to assess the information which is available and decide whether we think we can go to our constituents and say that we are satisfied that our naval strength is adequate for the demands that might be made upon it.
  We have had a speech today from the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, East (Commander Pursey), who has made it quite clear that there is no threat for us to face in a great many parts of the world, and that there is not very much for us to worry about at all. I do not accept that. I find it very difficult to accept some of the propositions which the hon. and gallant Member made, in particular, about the Russians and the enemies we might find ourselves fighting against. What I can accept from some of the hon. Members who have contributed to the debate is the proposition that, as we are now more of less in a nuclear stalemate, we might well not find ourselves fighting a nuclear war.
  Most of us still remember the beginning of the last war, when we were walking round with gas masks on our shoulders, because we thought that there might be a threat of gas. In fact, as each side was well equipped with gas, the threat never materialised. Therefore, I want to address myself to the position in which we might find ourselves in the event of a non-nuclear war, and to the question whether we would be able to meet the demands likely to be made upon us at that time.
  In the Explanatory Statement which accompanies these Estimates we have set out, for example, the fact that various ships have been given to Commonwealth navies. One hundred and ten ships are now available to Commonwealth navies as a result of the assistance which we have given. I recall the Civil Lord saying only a few days ago that there are now 15 Commonwealth navies. I should like to hear from the Civil Lord that there is someone, somewhere, to co-ordinate all these navies. I should like to know whether there is one person, or a committee somewhere, trying to help these navies and assess how they can best be integrated and provide the type of ship to fit in with other parts of the general plan.
  We know that the Canadians have specialised in anti-submarine warfare
  1848
  What I should like to know is exactly where we are supposed to fit into this Commonwealth picture. I hope that perhaps the Civil Lord may be able to give us, if not tonight, at least on a subsequent occasion in the Explanatory Statement, an overall picture of what is going on in the Commonwealth, to see whether, in fact, the ships that are available, are designed to meet the various commitments which we can foresee for our naval forces.
  Further on in the Explanatory Statement we have references to the various organisations to which we belong, such as N.A.T.O. There again, it is very difficult for a Member of Parliament to assess what part to play. We know that the Belgians have specialised on minesweeping. But what exactly is the part that we are supposed to play in N.A.T.O.? How do we fit in and how can an ordinary Member of Parliament assess the position to see how we fit into the picture in these various organisations?
  Having looked at the forces which are at our disposal and the organisations to which we belong, the next thing is to have a look at the possible requirements for which our naval forces would be needed. It is a fair estimate that there are about 2,000 ships at sea in the Atlantic on any one day. At the beginning of the last war I found myself in the operations room of Western Approaches. I saw the convoys being mounted and sent to sea with one unarmed trawler as the only possible defence. The only thing it had which the others had not was a set of code books, with a little lead at the bottom of the bag. I want to be able to tell my constituents firmly that that is not a situation which will ever arise again
  It may be that the Civil Lord can assure me on that point, but, having looked at the Commonwealth navies and N.A.T.O. forces, and divided them among the various commitments, if we should happen to be running convoys in the Atlantic I should like to know what number of ships would be available to defend each convoy. Probably we have better ships than at any time during the last war. They have greater hitting power and there are various methods of fighting the submarine which were not available before. But that is the type

  1849
  of problem to which, in the interests of my constituents, I must address my mind. If we can get some information at some time in the Explanatory Statement which would help in resolving that type of problem, I should be very grateful.
  Another question I want to ask the Civil Lord is about training. Submarines have a jab to do and continue to do that job day in and day out. Aircraft flying on anti-submarine work are not designed to do anything else. Ships, however, which are at present engaged in anti-submarine work would find themselves, if they were fighting a war, in a situation in which they would be detected and attacked from very long range. Those likely to fight in an antisubmarine war must, therefore, have the best possible training and be absolutely on top of their job. With the number of ships available at the moment it seems that there must be many of our surface ships which are used for jobs other than anti-submarine work. They do extremely valuable work on visits to distant countries and there are plenty of other jobs for them to do, as hon. Members know. I should like to make certain that with all those jobs the men who would fight an anti-submarine war are receiving adequate training in anti-submarine warfare.
  I had the privilege, last year, to have about a week with one of Her Majesty's destroyers on a N.A.T.O. exercise. When it was over I came back to H.M.S. "Sea Eagle", at Londonderry, to see the exercise worked out. I was very greatly impressed by the efficiency and the way in which the exercise was conducted. However, it seemed to me that the equipment available was not, perhaps, as modern nor as skilfully designed for the job as would be possible. Shortly after I came back from that exercise I found in a Canadian newspaper a picture of "a million-dollar tactical trainer with an electronic brain which is available at Halifax".
  The report in that paper went on to say that the first such trainer was installed by the Royal Navy at Malta. in 1950. The picture of it certainly looks very much more up-to-date than anything I saw in Londonderry. I hope that perhaps even a small amount of money can be made available to bring the best possible equipment to "Sea
  1850
  Eagle". The work done there by navies from all parts of the Commonwealth and all the N.A.T.O. Powers is something so valuable that anything which could be done to develop its efficiency would be very well worth while.
  Another point I want to make is that we have heard from various hon. Members who have taken part in this debate doubts about the position of an aircraft carrier in modern war. I accept a great many of those doubts, but the particular doubt that weighs most with me is the fact that we shall be spending such enormous sums of money and concentrating the power we have into so few places.
  An aircraft carrier that really started to make a nuisance of itself would be in a very difficult position in modern warfare. I was, therefore, pleased to see that, according to the Explanatory Statement, two new guided-missile destroyers will be fitted with Seaslug. I am not aware of what the plan is for defending aircraft carriers, but I should like to be certain that if we have very valuable ships such as that afloat in the oceans they will be adequately defended.
  I hope that the Admiralty will not find itself mesmerised by the fleet carrier. I would be happier if I knew that there was some way in which we were getting Polaris or something like that afloat, whether in submarines or other vessels. so that we would be able to play our hart in a hot war. I should also like to be certain that there were adequate numbers of surface ships for the type of operation in which we find ourselves today. I sometimes wonder whether the eyes of the Admiralty are not a little too much attracted towards carriers and large ships.
  I congratulate the Civil Lord on paragraph 59 of the Explanatory Statement in which he speaks of the "normal practice" of giving ratings "four months' notice of overseas service." He also shows that the new centralised drafting system is working well. It seems to be a great improvement on some of the arrangements that were in force before. Are similar facilities offered to officers? I know of one or two officers who were not given anything like the treatment which it is stated is given to the ratings. It would be helpful if the Civil Lord could tell us something about that.
  8.37 p.m.
  Mr. Emrys Hughes: I want to fulfil the rôle that I usually adopt in these debates—that of the critic who wants a big reduction, under Vote A, in Admiralty expenditure and in the number of men in the Royal Navy. I suggest a reduction of 1,000 men. I find that I am fulfilling a rôle that has been carried on in the Committee for a very long time. It is a very important rôle, and one that if is necessary to maintain in this House of Commons.
  I have some interesting predecessors in this task. In the debate on the Navy Estimates on 10th March, 1851, —110 years ago—a radical—a Liberal—Mr. Hume, a very unorthodox critic of the Administration of his time, moved almost the same kind of Motion that I intend to move later, just to maintain the traditional position. He was supported by a Mr. Cobden, and I commend hon. Members who are interested in the historical side of the Navy Estimates to read HANSARD for 10th March, 1851.
  They will find that in that debate Mr. Cobden, who was a Liberal—and I do not see the Liberals here to back Mr. Cobden tonight—wanted a reduction in naval expenditure and in the number of naval personnel. It was argued by the then Civil Lord—although he may not have been known by that title—that all this was necessary to prepare for a naval war with France. At that time, the Admiralty was asking for 30,000 men at a cost of £5.700,000 for the lot.
  Compared with those figures, the present Estimates are astronomical. We want 100,000 men and £413,000 million, and nobody has argued that we are to fight France. The Minister's argument is that these Estimates are justified on the assumption that we may have to fight the Soviet Union. There is a sort of continuity running through the Admiralty's philosophy—as the hon. and learned Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget) called it—and it is contained in almost the first paragraph of the Explanatory Statement, which speaks about the value of sea power.
  The Statement says:
  "In a continually changing political and strategic situation the special value of sea power—its mobility and flexibility—remains constant."
  1852
  That platitude runs through all these Admiralty arguments, very much as the "Thou shalt nots" run through the Ten Commandments. It is the good old platitude that helps to fill out the Admiralty's documents when it has nothing more convincing to say—as in this Explanatory Statement.
  In various speeches, we have heard the Navy compared with a fire brigade. I recently read a very interesting letter in The Times, which I thought to be the most intelligent letter I have read in that newspaper while I have been one of its readers. It was a very short letter, and it dealt with this very argument. It was headed "A N.A.T.O. Fire Brigade", and it took only half an inch of a column. The letter said:
  "Sir, —I read of a ' N.A.T.O. fire. brigade' "—
  for "N.A.T.O.", we can substitute "Navy" in the context of this debate—
  "equipped with tactical nuclear weapons. I must protest. What sort of fire brigade is it which, when called, immediately proceeds to burn down the entire city in which the original fire started? Yours faithfully, John Horner, General Secretary, The Fire Brigades Union."
  I commend that as a thought to those hon. and gallant Members who during all these Estimates justify this huge expenditure on the ground that the Navy, the Air Force or the Army is like a fire brigade.
  Mr. R. Gresham Cooke: Is Mr. John Horner still a Communist? Is he putting forward that Communist doctrine?
  Mr. Hughes: I do not know. I judge it upon its merits as a letter. Whether he is a Communist or a Unitarian does not affect the commonsense of the letter.
  Mr. Rankin: If he were a Tory it would be all right.
  Mrs. Judith Hart: Would not my hon. Friend agree that whatever may be the politics of Mr. John Horner—and they are certainly not Communist—he is being entrusted with a highly responsible job in what the Government choose to call the civil defence of the country?
  Mr. Hughes: My hon. Friend is quite right. I do not follow all these things. I am not worried about Communists in the sense that I do not see Communists under the bed as the hon. Member for Twickenham (Mr. Gresham Cooke) does.

  1853
  I rather think that Mr. John Horner resigned from the Communist Party at the time of Hungary. I do not need to go into that, however. I merely quoted the letter as the most eminently sensible letter which has appeared in the columns of The Times for a very long time.
  One of the most interesting features of this debate is the appearance of my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Northampton on the Front Bench. He and I have taken part in these debates together, with my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull, East (Commander Pursey), for about fifteen years. Sometimes I have had the good fortune to listen to my hon. and learned Friend and he has had the misfortune to listen to me. It depended upon our place in the queue.
  In his presentation of the case from the Opposition Front Bench, my hon. and learned Friend gave a far more intelligent and realistic view of the possibilities of future war than I have yet heard from the Opposition Front Bench. I hope I am not embarrassing my hon. and learned Friend, but he presented us with a realistic approach to the whole problem and the background of the Navy Estimates. I am not so sure that I agree with everything he said, but, to paraphrase a famous saying of the Duke of Wellington,
  "I do not know what effect this has on the Admiralty, but, by God, it frightens me."
  I predict that my hon. and learned Friend will be so candid, honest and realistic in his approach that his life on the Front Bench will be a short and gay one and that in another fifteen years, perhaps, the outlook of the Labour Party—who knows?—will have become so sensible, realistic and intelligent that I might be occupying my hon. and learned Friend's seat on the Front Bench and he might be waiting in the queue to listen to me.
  Certainly, it was a frankness which I much admired when my hon. and learned Friend said that this country could not survive a nuclear war. He said that the instructions to the Navy would be, "Get to hell out of it" as soon as the war was on the horizon. That is a very different kind of signal to Nelson's at the Battle of Trafalgar. I am sorry to say, however, that that is what some of the people on the Clyde are already saying before the "Proteus" and the Polaris
  1854
  arrive. They say, "Get to hell out of it". We will be greatly interested in what happens when the nuclear submarine arrives in the Clyde. There is a great deal of public interest in it and a great deal of public antagonism to it. It is no use blinding our eyes to the fact.
  I have been against these Estimates for many years. I always had the opinion that I was a lone voice crying in the wilderness and that in about twenty or one hundred years' time somebody might be quoting some of my speeches, as I have been quoting the speeches of Mr. Cobden tonight. I never realised, however, that responsible bodies like the Scottish T.U.C. would ask me to speak at their meetings. I am so used to speaking to small audiences, like those I usually find here in the debates on the Navy Estimates, that I am surprised that I should he asked. There have been great mass meetings and there have been great marches, in which my hon. Friend the Member for Lanark (Mrs. Hart) has taken part. This represents feeling and antagonism, which means that the people are not so sure that the Polaris will be such a useful weapon after all.
  Although I am on the back benches and my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Northampton is on the Front Bench. I think I speak for a very large volume of opinion in the Labour Party that does not share his enthusiasm or his ideas about Polaris and that I happen to speak, along with Mr. Cousins, for the great majority of the Labour Party. [HON. MEMBERS: "Nonsense".] I have paid so many compliments during my speech that I should surely be allowed to say something about which there may be a little controversy.
  When my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Northamton talked about submarines, I rose to interrupt him at a critical point. He knew that it was a critical point and he did not rise to it—or rather he did not sit down to it. He is an old friend of mine, and I know that he used to have a horrible nightmare in which he was addressing a meeting of his constituents in a school and I was sitting in the front row ready to ask questions. Now that nightmare has become a reality.
  My hon. and learned Friend was very interesting when he described the various types of submarine. He said that one

  1855
  could not look for a submarine in a haystack and we would have to go in and take the port. That was very reminiscent of what some of the Russian admirals have been saying. As soon as it heard about Holy Loch the Russian Navy began to get interested in Scotland, which, I thought, was very unhealthy indeed for Scotland. I have been closely associated with Russians in my time and I certainly got alarmed when I heard that a Russian admiral was saying something which could mean the obliteration of my constituency and of me. I do not think that that is gratitude.
  If the strategy of this Government is carried to a conclusion, it means that the Russians will be interested in the places these missiles will come from, and they are taking an interest in Holy Loch. In a Russian magazine only a fortnight ago I saw a Russian writer's description of Holy Loch in a very long article. He succeeded in marching round Holy Loch before I did.
  How did the Admiralty come to agree to having Polaris at Holy Loch? There is a lot of unwritten history about this. The Prime Minister has refused to produce a White Paper, although the decision represents a momentous change in British foreign and defence policy. How is it that, although it was at the end of 1959. at Service level, that the Americans asked for a submarine base in Scotland, ten months elapsed before the Government decided to grant the request? Apparently. the Admiralty was roving around Britain with its American counterparts in order to find a base where Polaris would be acceptable and popular.
  Brigadier Terence Clarke: I offered them Portsmouth long ago.
  Mr. Hughes: If the hon. and gallant Gentleman offered them Portsmouth, and if the Civil Lord had accepted his generous offer, I am quite sure that there would have been great gratitude from the people of Glasgow to the hon. and gallant Member. To them, he would have been the most popular man ever to have spoken in this Committee.
  Brigadier Clarke: I think the Civil Lord has probably fixed up for Polaris to come to Portsmouth but he is only kidding the hon. Member that it is
  1856
  going to Scotland because he does not want him to know where it is going.
  Mr. Hughes: I am glad if that is so. My hon. Friend the Member for Southampton, Itchen (Dr. King) wrote to the Guardian attacking me because of my attitude in this matter. I suggested Southampton Water and offered to debate with him in his constituency about it, but I have not heard from him since. I am quite prepared, if Polaris is taken down to Portsmouth, to defend the hon. and gallant Member, to show him gratitude and turn the other cheek in a way that he has never done for me.
  There is a certain interest in how we came to fix on this part of Scotland. To obtain an answer I suppose we shall have to wait, not for anything that we can extract from the Civil Lord of the Admiralty, because he is rather low down in the priority list of these plenipotentiaries, but until the Prime Minister comes to write his memoirs or appears on television when he becomes the Earl of Holy Loch in about ten years' time.
  Meanwhile, I should like to know something about the negotiations. Where did the Admiralty go before it decided on Holy Loch. Did it go to Dundee? My hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Govan (Mr. Rankin) asked this question the other night. There are two hon. Members representing Dundee who were enthusiastic supporters of Polaris. and they would not have the difficulty in trying to convince the local population that we have in the west of Scotland. I should like to know—I do not expect to have an answer—something about these negotiations which resulted in the Americans coming to Holy Loch
  Perhaps the Civil Lord will be able to clear up the curious statement made by the Minister of Defence in the debate on Monday. There was a little altercation, and my hon. Friend the Member for Govan said that the Admiralty had asked for Polaris to come to Scotland. I rose to correct him and said that really the story was that the Americans had asked to come there first. HANSARD reports that the Minister of Defence nodded his head in disagreement with me. If this is so, then a good deal requires to be cleared up. That certainly was not cleared up by the not very candid answer which the Prime Minister

  1857
  gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn (Mrs. Castle) today.
  When this submarine comes—it may be withdrawn almost as soon as it comes if the rumours from Washington are correct—the Clyde will be the scene of great naval activity. My constituency runs for many miles along the Firth of Clyde, and during the last war German submarines came up as far as Ailsa Craig. When I go to some houses in my constituency I find that my constituents have binoculars which were taken away from German submarines. When the Polaris submarines come sailing up and down the Firth of Clyde, shall we find that there are Russian submarines waiting for them outside? Is that the sort of thing that is likely to ease international tension? There may be an incident, who knows? But there will he greater naval activity in the Firth of Clyde than ever before.
  Mr. Paget: I did not entirely follow my hon. Friend's argument. Is he saying that, knowing his constituents and knowing what they did with the German binoculars, they will "pinch" Polaris before long?
  Mr. Hughes: It may be; they are very good binoculars. It may be that in due course I shall be able to look across to the Isle of Arran through Russian binoculars. I can see a great deal of undesirable naval activity and naval expenditure in my part of the world.
  Mr. Gresham Cooke: Surely the hon. Gentleman realises that in the County of Norfolk, for instance, there have been large American air bases ever since the war. They are well known to be atomic air bases, but there has not been any Russian aerial activity over Norfolk or around the shores of Norfolk.
  Mr. Hughes: That is a very good point. Certainly no Russian administration has been so stupid as to send Russian aircraft over this country, like the Americans sent the U.2 over the Soviet Union.
  Mr. Dudley Williams: Then why should the Russians send submarines to the Clyde?
  Mr. Hughes: I am trying to follow this argument to its logical conclusion. If the "George Washington", the "Patrick Henry or any of the other American
  1858
  submarines go to Holy Loch, Russian submarines will be interested and they might follow them. This means that there will be a great deal of undesirable activity and naval expenditure on the Firth of Clyde.
  Mr. E. L. Mallalieu: My hon. Friend has been arguing that "Proteus" and the Polaris submarines might go to Southampton Water. Would not exactly the same thing occur there?
  Mr. Hughes: If my hon. Friend explains that to one of the Members representing Southampton, perhaps that hon. Member will support me.
  There has already been a good deal of naval activity as a result of the Polaris base being established in the Holy Loch. In the Clyde area there is an Admiralty contingent led by Rear-Admiral R. S. Hawkins, accompanied by members of his staff and the staff of the Flag Officer for Scotland. A Polaris base security committee was formed which local authority representatives were invited to join. The 'purpose of the Admiralty has been to damp down the idea that there is anything dangerous in submarines carrying Polaris missiles coming to the Holy Loch. But if it is found necessary to set up a committee composed of twenty people, surely there is a possibility of danger.
  Among those who 'have been invited to join this liaison committee are the Board of Agriculture, the Scottish Home Department, the Department of Fisheries, the Atomic Energy Authority, the Milk Marketing Board, the National Farmers' Union of Scotland, the Clyde Pilotage Authority, the police, fire services, hospitals, the Civil Defence and local health services. Local people are naturally asking why all this is necessary if there is no likelihood of danger coming to Holy Loch.
  Mr. Manuel: My hon. Friend has reached a very important aspect of this matter. I have been informed that, in the event of conflict, the Holy Loch area was listed as an evacuation area for children and the weaker members of the community. Has my hon. Friend considered the effect that the coming of the Polaris submarines will have on this arrangement? Has he ascertained What will happen? Is it any longer an area for evacuees?
  Mr. Hughes: I am assiduous in attempting to extract information from the powers that be about what this means. The fact that a committee of this kind has been set up indicates that there is a good deal of anxiety about the future. We all understood that Argyllshire and the district around the Holy Loch was an area to which we would evacuate our civil population in the event of war. I will not ask the Civil Lord of the Admiralty that one because he will reply that it concerns Scotland. As a civil defence problem I am almost certain that that area is still an evacuation area. If it is not an evacuation area then it means there will be less security for the population who live in the neighbourhood of Holy Loch.
  There is a great deal of interest taken in this part of Argyllshire as to what is likely to happen. A gentleman who lives on the shore of Holy Loch has sent to me a Blue Book and a document published by the Stationery Office which I had not read before. It is file Report of the Committee on the Safety of Nuclear-powered Merchant Ships. This came to me heavily marked from people who are interested in the development of the Polaris base. Mind you, these people are not Socialists; they are Conservatives and Liberals. Some of them are leading the Opposition.
  There are several important paragraphs about which anyone living in the neighbourhood of the Holy Loch will, naturally, be very alarmed indeed, because it tells us about the possibilities. Paragraph 36, on page 6, reads:
  "A major reactor accident far out to sea could lead to the death of all people closely associated with the accident. In addition vessels within, say, a mile and to leeward of the accident might suffer contamination which could result in dangerous exposures of those on board. Ships outside this distance and under way would be unlikely to be affected severely, if at all, since they would have time to move clear of the line of any possible discharge. The effect on stationary vessels would vary with their position relative to that of the nuclear ship."
  Mr. C. Ian Orr-Ewing: I think the hon. Member will recall that one of the most competitive tenders for the 65,000-ton tanker has come from one of the great Clyde shipbuilding firms. Presumably it wants to carry on and to introduce at some time this new method of propelling ships. It comes from the Fairfield yard, which, I think, is in the
  1860
  constituency of the hon. Member for Glasgow, Govan (Mr. Rankin). I hope that the hon. Member for South Ayrshire does not wish Clydeside to stay behind and not take part in this revolution in propulsion machinery.
  Mr. Hughes: There is some point in what the hon. Gentleman says. However, that is no satisfaction to people who live in houses on Holy Loch and who see the prospects of discharge in their immediate neighbourhood.
  Mr. Dudley Williams: My hon. Friend's question is whether the hon. Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Emrys Hughes) is insinuating that he does not want to see nuclear-powered ships built on the Clyde because the people living on the Clyde do not want any risk from radiation. Is that what the hon. Member said?
  Mr. Hughes: No. What I am saying is that there has been alarm expressed at the possibility of these submarines being stationed in Holy Loch in the area in which these people live. I am expressing the alarm that these people feel. Had it not been played down so much by the Admiralty I would not have been arguing on these lines. There is a very natural curiosity as to what this is likely to mean in that area.
  Mrs. Hart: I am sure that hon. Gentlemen opposite realise that nuclear-powered merchant ships and all merchant shipping of non-military or non-naval establishments are governed by Acts of Parliament relating to any dangerous radioactive substance which may emanate from them. The Polaris vessel visiting Holy Loch is specifically excluded from the Radioactive Substances Act, as are all forces which come under the Visiting Forces Act.
  Mr. Hughes: I hope that my hon. Friend will be able to elaborate that when she comes to speak, because I can assure the Committee that this alarm is genuine. I would draw special attention to paragraph 37 of the Report, which says:
  "The seriousness of the situation if a catastrophe took place near land would largely depend on the direction and strength of the wind at the time. In a range from 100 miles down to 25 miles from land, the effect could be one of ground contamination of some foodstuffs, particularly milk."

  1861
  This presumably is why the Scottish Milk Marketing Board and the National Farmer's Union have been brought in. I have asked many times what compensation would be given if milk was contaminated and farmers' interests were in any way injured, but I have received no satisfactory answer. These questions need to be answered. They are questions which will be repeatedly asked.
  The Report continues:
  "In this case, appropriate control action could he put in hand to prevent injury to people. The damage would be temporary and of local effect, though the need for appropriate emergency management should not be underestimated."
  That being so, I think that the Admiralty should be more candid than it has been up to now.
  Paragraph 38 of the Report brings the matter nearer and nearer to the people who live on the borders of the Holy Loch. It states:
  "If the catastrophe occurred within 25 miles of land, the spread of fission products could have a direct effect on people living in the affected area. In some coastal regions, the numbers of people living in the area would be high—well over 100,000." —
  Holy Loch is within 20 to 25 miles from Glasgow—
  "The major effect would be one of damage to the thyroid, particularly of young children, and although the damage might not be evident immediately it could develop after a period. The radiation effect on adults would be relatively slight unless the incident occurred within a few miles of land. If the catastrophe occurred within ten miles of land the consequences would be much more serious and under the worst circumstances could result in the death or injury of many people."
  It is our duty to put these facts before the Committee and to ask why the Admiralty agreed to having the base in this area.
  I could read a great deal more from this Report, but I will content myself with quoting three recommendations. The first is:
  "stringent fine precautions should be taken for a nuclear ship in port."
  The next is that
  "explosives should not be handled at or near a berth occupied by a nuclear ship."
  The third recommendation is that
  "a nuclear ship should not be berthed very near large numbers of people."
  Did the Admiralty know of the contents of this Blue Book when it decided
  1862
  to agree to having the base at Holy Loch? As far as we can make out, all that the Admiralty considered was whether it would be a useful and safe place for the submarine. It did not think of the civilian population or of the psychological effect. It did not realise that a great deal of protest would come from the area.
  On 16th December, I said in debate to the Civil Lord:
  "The hon. Member is talking about the convenience of the submarine base from the point of view of the Admiralty. Did he at any time consider the fact that there was a very big civilian population within a very short distance?"
  The answer was:
  "No—our main concern was to make this operational facility as efficient as possible." — [OFFICIAL REPORT, 16th December, 1960; Vol. 632. c. 832.]
  He was thinking of the operational activities of the submarine not of the background at all.
  I submit that when anything like this is planted down in the west of Scotland an effort should be made by the Admiralty to make contact with the local population and the local authorities. This was not done. So the protest has come. It has come from the Ayrshire County Council. It has come from Glasgow Corporation. It has come from Clydebank. It has come even from Tory local authorities like the Dunbartonshire County Council. ft has come from Greenock. Very many local authorities speaking on behalf of the people they represent are bitterly alarmed about this thing being brought to Holy Loch, and they wish their point of view to be expressed in the House of Commons
  We have heard about the Russian menace. We hear a great deal about Russian submarines. I think it was put into something like reasonable perspective by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull, East. I have been where some hon. Members may have been, in the Admiralty school at Leningrad. I was a fellow traveller there with the Prime Minister, the Chancellor of the Exchequer and his Parliamentary Private Secretary.
  Mr. Paget: They would all have done better to stay at home.
  Mr. Hughes: I disagree with my hon. and learned Friend. I believe that the

  1863
  Prime Minister did a very useful service at that time by going unilaterally to Russia and breaking the ice. It was much appreciated.
  I learnt quite a lot about the naval school in Leningrad, the place where the Russian admirals operate and where the officers are trained in naval strategy and warfare. I remember seing a very big relief map of the British Isles, which did not give me any sense of security at all.
  Captain Liddell Hart has written a very interesting book "The other side of the Hill", in which he asks us to think of what the people on the other side are contemplating and what their line of strategy is. What will the Russians think of Polaris? It is all very well my hon. and learned Friend saying that it is a second strike weapon, that Polaris will be fired only as a second strike. That is after we have been struck. It will be no great satisfaction to the people of Glasgow to know that if a Russian bomb explodes over Glasgow there will be another one blowing up Leningrad.
  What is likely to be the line of strategy on the other side? The Russians are likely to say, "What about this Polaris submarine coming within 1,300 miles of Leningrad or Archangel?" One of the American admirals said that missiles from this submarine could destroy every city in the latitude from Moscow to Omsk. The Russians will take their precautions. The result may be—who knows? —that one of these Polaris submarines may be destroyed. I cannot see that this line of strategy, much satisfaction though it gives to the theoretical strategists here, is likely to put an end to the tension which may lead to the sort of war we have all been talking about. I believe that the establishment of the Polaris submarine in Scotland adds to the tension. It will help to continue the cold war. At a time when we should be thinking of disarmament, we are indulging in this new line of advance towards bigger and more destructive arguments.
  The Government are making a mistake. We are watching developments in Scotland with the greatest apprehension. In one of our debates recently the hon. Member for Bute and North Ayrshire (Sir F. Maclean) said that one bomb dropped over Glasgow would destroy everything within A radius of 100 miles and reduce
  1864
  the place to cinders. Is that the way to security? It is the way to destruction. We say, therefore, that by agreeing to this line of strategy the Government are not making this country any more secure. They are embarking upon a strategy leading to greater and greater tension and increasing the arms race.
  I warn the Government that they will meet opposition in my part of the world. There will be great opposition, and it will, perhaps, take forms which the Government do not expect. In this debate I have ventilated an important issue, and in speaking as I have and pointing out the dangers I have expressed the point of view of my constituents and of very many people throughout Scotland
  9.21 p.m.
  Commander J. S. Kerans: I noted with interest the look-back into history which the hon. Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Emrys Hughes) took. I only hope that in the year 2061 people will look back again because, quite frankly, when he talks about Polaris I agree with almost nothing that he says. I go so far as to say that the Royal Navy should have the Polaris weapon. Of course, it is an extremely expensive toy, and we may well have to rely on the American deterrent, because it is without any doubt whatever the finest deterrent we have today. The hon. Member's fears about security are not well founded. I am convinced that the Civil Lord and the Board of Admiralty went into the whole matter with great care long before the decision was made. Hon. Members cannot have it both ways.
  I am concerned with the rundown of the Reserve Fleet. We have had a Reserve Fleet at West Hartlepool for some time since the war, but there are rumours that it is to disappear. Ships disappear from time to time and do not return. This Fleet employs nearly 200 civilians and, with 3·6 per cent. unemployment in the area, the loss of the Reserve Fleet would have a serious effect on employment in my constituency. I hope that my hon. Friend can assure me that the Reserve Fleet in West Hartlepool will remain there for some time. It has been part of the scenery for a long time, and I would hate to see it go.

  1865
  Turning to operational matters, our naval forces in the Far East are slender. We have a Commando carrier and one other, one cruiser and 12 frigates and destroyers. That is not enough and the area covered by the Far East station has now been considerably increased. Are we relying on the large United States forces in the area and on the Australian and New Zealand forces? I hope that my hon. Friend will comment on that aspect because our forces are very small, especially when, as he said earlier, the Chinese now have 30 submarines. This country still has considerable interest in the Far East, especially under S.E.A.T.O.
  I congratulate the Civil Lord on allowing hon. Members to visit the fleet last summer. We had plenty of time to make our arrangements and the visit was worth while. We came into contact with every type of rating and all officers, informally and at every level, and we returned with a number of comments to make.
  I was impressed by the improvement in conditions in the last few years, especially in catering and general welfare. The Home Fleet may be small these days, but its efficiency is considerable. Those who criticise the vast rundown of the Navy do not appreciate its cost. If we want the hardware, we have to have the best and the most efficient for the money available.
  I am glad to note from the White Paper how much centralised drafting has improved conditions for ratings and given additional warning of posting to them. I have learned from many ratings that there is no difficulty about getting into a foreign service commission, which I gather to be extremely popular.
  There is another most important aspect of recruiting for the Royal Navy with which I want to deal. The Admiralty has recently issued a number of pamphlets on the various types of entry into the Navy. They were of a high standard and the Central Office of Information and the Admiralty should be congratulated on the production of these documents. More money is to be spent on recruiting and I hope that as the years go on there will be a slightly greater increase.
  I recently visited the advertising agency which deals exclusively with
  1866
  advertisements about joining the Royal Navy, as an officer or rating, and I spent some time going around and seeing how costly these things are. That is where much of the money spent on recruiting is absorbed. But it is correct that these advertisements should appear in newspapers like Reveille and Tit Bits. That is the right attitude and it is getting to the right men at the right time.
  Another aspect of recruiting was brought to my notice in my constituency the other day. A rating who had served eleven years on a regular engagement came back for demobilisation to find a job in my constituency, but he could not get a house. He had no priority on the housing list and his two children had to live with his in-laws.
  Mr. Burden: Does my hon. and gallant Friend know that two Minissters of Housing and Local Government, at the request of hon. Members, have sent communications to local authorities asking that men who apply to live in a certain area within a year from leaving the forces should be given priority on the local housing list? Probably his own housing authority has lost sight of that and it might help if my hon. and gallant Friend recalled it.
  Commander Kerans: I am grateful for that information, of which I was not aware, and I hope that it will be noted in the right quarters.
  In my constituency there is a recruiting centre which, I am glad to say, is situated in the centre of the town. The recruiting staff go to considerable trouble over their advertising displays and they get a number of callers. Unfortunately, in many parts of the country the Navy recruiting office is tucked away in an unfrequented back street. The White Ensign is dirty and few people go near the place or even know of its existence. I hope my hon. Friend will bear that in mind in connection with recruiting for the Navy.
  Another point affecting recruiting occurs to me. Many men cannot be drafted to their home port prior to demobilisation. Many of them are skilled personnel who, because of the rundown of the Fleet, cannot be drafted home to make contacts with industry during the last six months of their

  1867
  service. That may seem a small point, but it has been brought to my notice on a number of occasions. I know what it means for a man who is leaving the Service, and who has to make up his mind what he is capable of doing. For a man who has been an executive rating all his life it is hard to fit into industry in the area in which he wishes to live. He needs opportunities to contact the local employment exchange and to get advice from local organisations or to take advantage of opportunities to train in advance. I hope that something can be done to mitigate this kind of hardship.
  I have always taken a great interest in the Sea Cadet Corps and I am glad to know that there is a slight increase in the Vote for the Corps. The Admiralty does a great deal to help. In my constituency I have a very fine branch of the Corps, which increases in efficiency year by year. The greater the interest taken in the Corps by the public, the better, and people will be doing a very great service by supporting it. The Admiralty cannot be expected to do it all.
  I should like some advance warning of visits by Her Majesty's ships to my constituency. These visits usually occur during the summer, and, so that arrangements may be made with the local authorities, more advance warning is required. Such visits are extremely popular and the more we can have, the better. Last year, because of operational reasons, the vessels visiting my constituency vanished overnight. That was a great disappointment and something which proved hard to explain. Naval visits, together with the publicity, are of considerable assistance to recruiting, and I hope that they will continue.
  While I am on the subject of naval visits, I should also like to refer to visits to foreign ports which quite often occur when there is a trade fair or something of that nature. On these occasions, inevitably, the commanding officer receives some large present from the local mayor or other authority, but what happens so far as the Royal Navy is concerned? All he can do is to give in return a ship's crest or badge. I suggest that consideration should be given by all those firms which trade with these areas to the idea that trade could he helped in this way
  1868
  by promoting our own exports to those foreign countries through a courtesy gift by a commanding officer. I hope that the Admiralty will look into that matter to see whether it is at all feasible.
  I have one last plea to make from a constituency point of view. There is a large shipbuilding and ship-repairing yard in my constituency where, very often, orders are thin on the ground, so that anything which the Admiralty can do, however small, would be of invaluable assistance to my constituency, in which we have 3·6 per cent. unemployment. Unless the Admiralty can find a way of helping these shipyards, by 1962–63 there will be a very serious rundown indeed; and once the labour moves out of the area it very rarely comes back again.
  Finally, I consider, and always have considered, that the Royal Navy offers an excellent future both for the officer and the rating. It is the finest club in the world, the pay is good, and at least the young man sees the world, meets men of all colours and creeds. Above all, however small the Navy may be in these days, if something happens there is always a ship either close at hand or within a day's steam. Time and time again, the prestige of the Navy has helped people from this country now living abroad. Whatever the country demands, the Navy will answer, because the Royal Navy has never yet let the country down.
  9.37 p.m.
  Mr. Mallalieu: The hon. and gallant Member for The Hartlepools (Commander Kerans) has not allowed the opportunity of his being on his feet to pass without mentioning a plea for shipping orders for his own constituency. I should like to tell him that his constituency is not the only pebble on the Parliamentary beach, because on the other side of the Humber is a place called Barton-on-Humber, which is in my constituency, where there is a very good shipbuilding yard which has done excellent work for the Admiralty in the past, and, I hope, will have the opportunity of doing so again.
  The hon. and gallant Gentleman also mentioned with gratitude the visits which he had been permitted to make to one of Her Majesty's ships last summer, and I rather think that he came shortly after

  1869
  my hon. Friend the Member for Loughborough (Mr. Cronin) and I had a similar trip on the "Gambia". Perhaps I am mistaken in that, but I know that that was spoken of.
  Commander Kerans: Unfortunately, I had to cut my visit short.
  Mr. Mallalieu: These visits are extremely helpful. They are helpful to us, because they give us a chance to learn something at first hand, and it is a two-way traffic, because it gives us an opportunity of showing the men serving in the Fleet that the House of Commons is really interested in their welfare. From both points of view, it is an extremely good thing that we should have these visits. We like to find as much knowledge as we can wherever we go, and we find quite a lot from these trips.
  Personally, I should like to find a little more knowledge sometimes about the objects for which we are having this vast expenditure. Of course, I expect to find it, to a certain extent, in this Explanatory Statement, and we certainly do, to a certain extent, though I must say that paragraph (4) is just a little bit too platitudinous even for me, and I am generally complacent with the Admiralty, because I know of the extremely good work that it does.
  What is the object of 'the Navy in a nuclear war? Paragraph 4 says:
  "In the event of all-out war, involving the countries of the N.A.T.O. Alliance, the Royal Navy's role would be as an integral part of the combined naval forces of the West."
  Is anyone any further forward? It does not tell us what the function or rôle of the Navy is. I must be a little easy on the Civil Lord about this, because I should not like to have to describe what that rôle would be in a nuclear war. It is extremely difficult. I think that the truth is that neither he nor the First Lord has the slightest idea of what the rôle of the Navy would be in a nuclear war.
  In the few moments of the time of the Committee that I shall take I want to return Ito the question of trying to find what the various weapons we 'talk about are for. I think I understand the function of the Navy in a "brush fire", as it is called in the Statement. I should have thought that the present Navy is
  1870
  very well suited for that sort of operation, but I just do not understand its function in a nuclear war. If anyone in the Admiralty or elsewhere understands that, some means should be found to communicate his views on the matter to the House of Commons, even if some very extraordinary means have to be found to do it. We cannot talk in public debate about these matters—they may be very secret—but some means ought to be found whereby the advanced thinking of the Admiralty on this subject, if it has any, could be communicated.
  The view has been expressed that if there is a major war it must be a nuclear war. My hon. and learned Friend the Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget) took that view. He may be right, but I confess that I could not be dogmatic about it. We do not know whether a limited war would develop automatically into a nuclear war. It is about a non-nuclear war—which has not yet developed, if ever it is to develop, into a nuclear war—that I want to speak perhaps at greater length than on other subjects, although not at any great length this evening. I could not possibly say, as my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull, East (Commander Pursey) said, that with all these Russian submarines about—whether it is 400, 600 or 700 I do not know, but it is a great many, however small we make the number—in my state of knowledge, or ignorance, if my bon. and gallant Friend prefers that, that we should ignore those submarines.
  The reason I say that is that the Russians have these submarines. Some of them may be nuclear submarines. They would not be of any use in a nuclear war—at least, no one has been able to say what use they would be. Therefore, I argue that the Russians apparently think that there would be a non-nuclear war and, presumably, that is what the submarines are for. If they are thinking on those lines, it does not seem possible or reasonable to suggest that we can ignore that. There is an enormous number of those submarines and I feel that we have not adequate means of dealing with them, even with our N.A.T.O. allies, although there is a slight caveat to that, because I am not fully aware of the capacities of our

  1871
  N.A.T.O. allies. One has certain information on these matters, but it is a serious business when there is this immense number of submarines which might at any moment be used in a non-nuclear war.
  What sort of figure should we come to? We have, of course, a certain number of submarines ourselves—is it 20, or something like that? We also have destroyers and frigates, and so have our N.A.T.O. allies, but nothing like the concentration that could be brought by the Russians with those submarines of theirs on the areas for which we are likely to be mainly responsible. As there is this threat, for which no adequate preparation and counter-action on our part seems possible, I should have thought that the Civil Lord and the First Lord would come here on tip-toes, but one can hear them stamping all the way down Whitehall telling each other pretty stories about the mobility and flexibility of naval power. I should like the Civil Lord to give a reassurance, if he can, as to the way in which he hopes to deal with that submarine threat should a non-nuclear war ever come about.
  I tried to raise the subject of information in last year's debate. How are we, as Members of Parliament, to be enabled to do our duty properly if we are not given the full information that is available? The hon. Gentleman may say, "I cannot possibly tell you in the House, nor can I publish what we really think about some of these matters." I would remind him that other countries seem to manage to give the information. They do not give it in public to the legislature, or in documents. They have commissions—the naval commission, the finance commission the economic commission, and so on—whose members are sworn to secrecy. Why cannot we have that?
  It is just not possible for us to keep ourselves adequately informed, to bring informed criticism to bear on these matters, and really to understand what these vast sums of money we are asked to sanction are for, unless we are kept properly informed? The Civil Lord should give thought to the possibility of calling together hon. Members on both sides of the House. swear them to secrecy, if necessarily, and see that they get some information to enable them to come out
  1872
  more helpfully from the national point of view.
  I have listened to most of this debate, and I confess that in my ignorance I have perhaps been blinded by a great deal of science from those knowing a great deal about these things. But my impression at the end of it all is that the whole strategical conception we are asked to try to digest and pass judgment on, and the relative merits of this or that weapon, is so complicated that it is virtually impossible for us as human beings to deal with it. Many people who are technicians have to do their best there, but my conclusion is that the sooner we get down to bringing about real disarmament, and the institution of a world authority, which alone shall have force to keep the peace, the better for all concerned.
  I should like each Department concerned—particularly that of Defence, which we discussed earlier in the week—to be thinking along these lines: what are the safeguards we should need before we could embark on some such scheme? I am convinced that unless we do think in that way we are heading for disaster. That is not because I think that the deterrent will not succeed in stopping the all-out nuclear war at present, but because these brush fires could lead, almost certainly would lead, to the more serious war later. Let us get down to thinking about how to avoid this.
  9.48 p.m.
  Mr. F. A. Burden: Ever since I have been a Member of this House I have taken a great interest in—and usually a part in the debate on—the Navy Estimates. That is probably because my constituency has a very great naval tradition, and I am sure that hon. Members on both sides will bear with me if I deal with what would appear to be an extremely parochial matter.
  For over 400 years my constituency has played a great part in our naval history. The Royal Naval Dockyard at Chatham, of which 75 per cent. is in my constituency, was founded in 1545, and it dates right back to the appointment of the first resident master shipwright. The base was then known as Gillingham Water, and was in use as a harbour for the King's ships for some years even before the date I have mentioned.

  1873
  Those of us who have been in Admiralty House, Gillingham, know that the first officer to command the Nore was Rear-Admiral John Campbell, hack in 1778. The last admiral to command the Nore is the present Admiral Sir Robin Durnford-Slater. He will remain commander until 24th March, on which date he will, for the last time, strike the flag of the Nore Command. Between those dates some very famous naval figures have been at Admiralty House as Commanders-in-Chief of the Nore. There have been such men as Admiral Sir George Callaghan, 1915–18; Admiral Sir Doveton Sturdee, 1918–21; Vice-Admiral Sir William Goodenough, 1924–27; and Admiral Sir R. Y. Tyrwhitt, 1930–33.
  There are great naval traditions associated with the Medway towns, and with Gillingham, in particular. As far back as 1666, General Monk, Duke of Albemarle, sailed from the downs for a four-day battle against the Dutch. In 1667, the Dutch fleet sailed up the Medway, while the English fleet was laid up, and the ships mostly dismantled in the dockyards in the basin. The Dutch admiral. De Ruyter, with 64 ships of the line and frigates, was able to enter the channels leading to the Medway, and sent part of his force, under Van Ghent, further up the river—
  Mr. Rankin: That was before the Act of Union. Scotland was not there to help.
  Mr. Burden: The Dutch force managed to pass Sheerness Fort. John Monk was sent with some forces to defend Chatham, but arrived too late and the day ended in disaster for the English fleet. Sixteen English ships were lost, the "Royal Charles" was taken and for the rest of the day served as the Dutch admiral's flagship. Peter Pett, the then Commissioner, was held to blame for the disaster and was deprived of his office and sent to the Tower.
  Perhaps the greatest ship of all to be launched and first commissioned and manned from Chatham Dockyard and sail down the Medway was the "Victory". It was launched in 1765 and in 1803 it became Nelson's flagship. Nelson himself lodged in Gillingham, probably when he was commissioning "Vanguard", which was his flagship in the Battle of Nile. in 1798.
  1874
  All has not always been happy, however, in the naval traditions and relations in the Medway—
  Mr. Willis: On a point of order. I wonder under which heading in the Estimates this historical account of the growth and development of the Nore comes?
  The Deputy-Chairman: I do not think that this is the first occasion in today's debate when a historical background has been used as the basis of a speech. I hope, however, that the hon. Member for Gillingham (Mr. Burden) will come to something that is more directly in order.
  Mr. Burden: We listened earlier to a great dissertation on ships that were not naval and which had nothing to do with the Navy, Sir William. What I am saying relates absolutely to the debate, because many of the Estimates in Vote A and other Votes, are affected by the closure of the Nore Command. Surely. therefore, in relating this matter I am at least entitled to outline the great part that the Nore Command has played and, as we consider it in my constituency, the great tragedy of its closure.
  In 1797— [An HON. MEMBER: I shall finish all the more quickly if the hon. Member for Glasgow, Govan (Mr. Rankin) does not interrupt. In 1797, there was a considerable mutiny there As a result, to bring the mutiny to an end, two Acts of Parliament were rushed through this House. They laid down that any person giving comfort or help to any. body engaged in mutiny on His Majesty's ships should suffer death without the clergy.
  During the First and Second World Wars, Nore Command— [Interruption.) Hon. Members opposite must be as patient with us in these matters—and this is a naval matter—as hon. Members on this side have been with hon. Members opposite when talking about matters that did not in any way concern Vote A. During the First and Second World Wars, Nore Command controlled naval operations in the whole of the southern area of the North Sea and the eastern end of the English Channel, but perhaps the greatest action of all that was taken by Nore Command was the organisation and implementation of the evacuation of

  1875
  Dunkirk, for which the whole country was grateful.
  Chatham Dockyard remains of tremendous importance to the Medway Towns, and particularly to my constituency of Gillingham. It is by far the biggest employer in those towns. We are happy that it was selected by the Government as the pilot yard in which the first great reorganisation scheme was carried out. We know that it is being fitted with equipment that will enable it to produce the nuclear submarine. I assure the hon. Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Emrys Hughes), who seems not to want nuclear submarines under any circumstances, that not only have the men of Chatham Dockyard the ability to build and construct the finest submarines and the "know-how" to build our first nuclear submarine, but that they will be extremely happy if they are given the opportunity of building the first British nuclear submarine.
  Mr. Emrys Hughes: Does the hon. Member mean that they would like to have the Polaris near Chatham?
  Mr. Burden: They would be very happy to build nuclear submarines. The nuclear submarine is the vehicle that will carry the Polaris or a similar weapon. Without the vehicle, we cannot launch the weapon.
  We have suffered another loss this year. The Royal Naval Hospital has been taken off the Navy Vote. It was built in 1895–98, at a cost of £405,000. It has been handed over to the health authorities and eventually will be returned as a hospital under the local hospital board. The present Commander-in-Chief of the Nore has suggested that, to retain the traditions that have been passed down through such long ages, after its reconstruction it might be called the Nore Hospital. It would remind us not only of the Command itself, but of the fact that this was a hospital built in association with the senior Service.
  It being Ten o'clock, The CHAIRMAN left the Chair to report Progress and ask leave to sit again.
  Committee report Progress.
  Ordered,
  That this day the Business of Supply may be taken after Ten o'clock and shall be exempted from the provisions of Standing Order No. 1 (Sittings of the House) for Two hours after Ten o'clock. —[Mr. C. Ian Orr-Ewing.]
  Supply again considered in Committee.
  Mr. Burden: There is considerable unhappiness in my constituency this year at the decision of the Admiralty to close the Nore Command. It is with some satisfaction that we note that the naval barracks is not to be handed over to private industry or to another Service, and that naval ratings will still be lodged there. I hope that all this does not spell the cutting off of the naval association—apart from the dockyard—with my constituency, and that it is more a change of emphasis than anything worse.
  It may well be that Nore Command is again the guinea pig for what may take place in other commands. Naval strategy is Changing, as is the type of weapon and the number of ships. The enormous shore establishments from which our ships have been operating may have to be trimmed very considerably. Nore Command, during the past years, has been presided over by an officer with the equivalent of field marshal's rank in the Army. There is no doubt that, if we are to streamline and trim our forces in accordance with modern requirements, the structure and chain of command must be looked at. Other areas may well find themselves faced with the break we are to experience on 24th March.
  When the Admiralty is considering reducing establishments, particularly overseas units, I ask it not only to consider the question of initial cost, but to take note of what has happened in Bermuda. There, the dockyard has been closed down and the small garrison removed. A very eminent Bermudan said to me, "We feel now that we have been cut off from the old country. Even if it had kept a small garrison, or a physical and obvious sign of our association, it would 'have helped us to resist the encroachment that we feel more and more every year from the Americans and the American way of life." I hope that in future, when these decisions are taken, such factors as that will also be considered before the final break is decided upon.
  I am grateful to the Committee for the tolerance it has shown me tonight, but

  1877
  the closing of Nore Command is an occasion that should be brought to its notice. After all, a 400-year break with naval tradition in my constituency is something that we there cannot look at lightly, and I am sure that this Committee does not view it lightly, either.
  10.3 p.m.
  Mrs. Judith Hart: I am sure the hon. Member for Gillingham (Mr. Burden) will forgive me if, while expressing my sympathy for the problems in his constituency, I do not follow him in them, except on one point which he mentioned, the question of whether or not the people of Scotland were in any way resistant to the idea of nuclear powered submarines.
  I want to make it quite plain that the people of Scotland, of course, welcome the advance of modern science and engineering and only wish that it were happening more quickly and that they themselves in their employment situation would be able to derive some benefit from it. What we are concerned about much more, particularly on this side of the House, is that each of the nuclear-powered submarines which are to operate from Holy Loch will carry on board the equivalent of 30 or 40 Hiroshimas. They are also concerned, naturally, as indeed would be the constituents of all hon. Members opposite if the Polaris base were to be near them, with the possible dangers to which the local populations may be exposed.
  Earlier, when my hon. Friend the Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Emrys Hughes) was good enough to give way to me, the point that I was trying to make was that there is a large section of scientific development in this country which is excluded from the protection afforded to local populations and to the country as a whole by the provisions of many Acts of Parliament which this House has brought into being.
  For example, the provisions of the Radioactive Substances Act, which this House passed last year, and which provides for the safety of local populations in any area from any release of radioactive substance, do not include visiting forces or, indeed, Crown defence establishments or the Atomic Energy Authority in so far as it is concerned in secret security work.
  1878
  It is because of this that a special liaison committee has been brought into being on the Clyde in order that people in the area can at least feel that they will get some information about safety precautions and possible dangers.
  There are three points which I wish to make, and I hope that hon. Members opposite will appreciate that to the best of my belief they are directly related to the Estimates that we are considering. The first is, I think, non-controversial. It is the question of scientific research carried out by the Admiralty, for which provision is made in the Estimates. I think that there can be very few people in the country who are not aware of and who do not fully appreciate the splendid laboratories and scientific staffs employed by the Admiralty in its Naval research departments.
  There is, for example, the Admiralty Laboratory which deals with physical research at Teddington. There is the Admiralty Material Laboratory at Holton Heath, and other establishments. Serving in them are men of the highest scientific standard in Britain, Fellows of the Royal Society and others of equivalent merit. They are studying, as we also know, many of the fundamental and important problems related to shipping in general and not only the specific problems of shipping in the naval sense. They are studying the problems of corrosion and how to prevent it, the fundamental properties of metals and steels, the problems of giving stability to ships, and the special engineering problems which arise from development of the high-speed turbine engine.
  It would be a great deal better for the nation and would offer a great deal of promise to our shipbuilding industry in particular and marine industries in general in this country if, on the basis of these research establishments, the Civil Lord were able to consider building up a field of research, the results of which could be offered freely outside the naval "wire" and afford a real hope of faster technological progress to industry outside. This could be done. Inside some research establishments there is work going on which must be kept secret, but there is a great deal of other work which need not he kept secret. Of course. much of it is published and the results are available, but it would be splendid if.

  1879
  using this part of naval research work as a basis, we were to build up in a field in which Civil research at the moment is very fragmentary and spasmodic, something which could be of great benefit to the nation as a whole. I hope that the Minister will consider that suggestion for the future.
  The second point that I want to make concerns Polaris. In these Estimates we are voting money to provide facilities on the Holy Loch. As the Minister of Defence told us in the debate before Christmas, the Navy has been concerned in the question of the Holy Loch base since the inception of the idea to establish it there. I am a little concerned about the many easy assumptions which are made about the value and significance of Polaris in the next two or three years.
  It seems to me that there is a tendency for Ministerial statements to be accepted without question and without challenge, whatever their merits may be. It is a tendency which relates not only to a consideration of defence Estimates. It is a tendency against which we have to fight all the time. I think that there has been a too easy acceptance of the idea that the Polaris submarines will solve the whole problem of the invulnerability and credibility of the Western deterrent and will provide the answer to many of the problems about which the military experts have been worried.
  It seems to me that Polaris offers no answers but provides a great many new problems. As we know, N.A.T.O. submarines have been found operating in Arctic waters and have caused provocation to the Soviet Union—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] —let me finish—and Soviet submarines have been found operating in Canadian coastal waters—which has provoked the Canadians. Provocation is a two-way business.
  Lieut.-Commander Maydon: Will the hon. Lady give us an instance in which a submarine of one of the N.A.T.O. countries operating in the Arctic has caused embarrassment to anybody?
  Mrs. Hart: I thought it was well known that there was an occasion last year when there was one American submarine—
  Lieut.-Commander Maydon: When?
  Mrs. Hart: I do not have the report in the House with me. I will give it to the hon. and gallant Gentleman later. I thought that this was established.
  Mr. Rankin: Surely it is well known that the experimental work on the American nuclear submarine was carried out in the Arctic.
  The Deputy-Chairman: Order. It should be borne in mind that the American submarines are not on this Vote.
  Mrs. Hart: I fully appreciate that, Sir William, and I hope that I shall not be led further astray by hon. Members opposite.
  The point that I am making is that submarine warfare tends to induce provocative situations, whether from one side or the other. When we are providing money in order to give facilities in the Holy Loch for Polaris submarines which are armed with nuclear weapons capable of wreaking the most tremendous damage—it is a killer weapon on a massive scale—then we are likely to increase provocation. It is inevitable, as has been pointed out in the debate by several hon. Members, that the Russians should now build hunter atomic submarines and fast nuclear-powered submarines in order to chase and keep track of the Polaris submarines. This also is not a one-way business. As soon as a weapon is developed by one side a counter weapon is developed by the other side. This is the whole logic of military and naval strategy in the last ten years.
  Mr. Burden: If the argument of the hon. Lady is correct, when we started to build Hurricanes and Spitfires after Hitler had built up his weapons we were provoking him.
  Mrs. Hart: I am saying that in present circumstances the difference is that everybody, or at least all people whose opinions are valued in this country, and that includes hon. Members opposite—recognise that the only way to defend the people of this country in a nuclear age is to prevent the outbreak of war, and if one is concerned to prevent the outbreak of war— [Interruption.] What

  1881
  I am saying is that hon. Gentlemen opposite are not necessarily finding the best way to do it and, in the opinion of very many of us, are falling into the trap of creating the provocation which could start a nuclear war instead of relaxing some of the tensions and reducing the amount of provocation. I instance the Polaris base in Holy Loch as a supreme example.
  It is very likely that within a few months or a year from now we shall find that Russia has a counter-measure to the Polaris submarine and that all we have done is to take the cold war and the danger of the outbreak of a hot war from missile bases and U.2 flights in the sky to the depths of the sea. This is one of the main reasons why the trade union movement in Scotland, and a very considerable section of opinion generally, including the Church in Scotland—
  Mr. Michael Clark Hutchison:: How is it that I have had only one letter against the Polaris submarine, and that from a Quaker? In my view, this is nothing less than a left-wing ramp led by MOSCOW.
  Mrs. Hart: I could hazard a guess why the hon. Member has had only one letter. It is because his constituents recognise that they could not expect a satisfactory answer from him on this question. In the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland this is one of the crucial issues of controversy at the moment. It is not only the Labour movement which is so upset today, it is a great section of opinion in Scotland which, as the hon. Gentleman must know, is very concerned. Indeed, much of it has committed itself to opposition to the Polaris weapon.
  The whole basis of the opposition to the Polaris base on Holy Loch and the Clyde is that many people feel that by providing facilities for it we are not providing a contribution to peace but a contribution to the greater danger of the outbreak of war.
  Another reason is that many are genuinely concerned about the safety aspects of the situation. They may be right and they may be wrong, but they have very certainly the right to be concerned and to be anxious. Many of us are now asking, in view of the events of the last week or two, just why it is
  1882
  that we are in fact still to have the Polaris base in the Holy Loch. We had understood at one stage that the only reason the Government was anxious to establish it there, in face of so much opposition from people living in the area, was that there was an absolute and dire necessity for it to be there and nowhere else.
  However, as we know, there have been several reports that the American Government are giving reconsideration to his question. It began to seem that, after all, the Americans regarded Holy Loch only as a temporary convenience; that it could be somewhere else and that, in fact, they could do without it altogether by making the journey of the submarines longer. Many of us have been forced to the conclusion expressed in the Blackburn Evening Telegraph on 21st February this year, which my hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn (Mrs. Castle) has been good enough to lend to me.
  The Blackburn Telegraph said:
  "Mr. Macmillan was in direct contact with the President over suggestions in Washington that the American Navy would not, after all, set up the Polaris submarine base on Holy Loch. Mr. Macmillan would lose substantial political stature if the plan were abandoned … If the Americans were now to make an astonishing about turn. Mr. Macmillan would be placed in an embarrassing position in Parliament and the country."
  If it is a question of making a choice between respecting the opinion of a considerable section of the Scottish people and of preserving, if that be possible, the prestige and stature of the Prime Minister, there are many people throughout the country who would have a great deal more respect for a Government which put the people before the Prime Minister, and respect for human feelings before the prestige of one individual. I hope that the Government even now may be prepared to reconsider the final establishment of the base at Holy Loch.
  I turn now to another question and one in which I hope that I can take hon. Members apposite and the Civil Lord in 'particular with me to a considerable extent. They will know that there has been in the last year or so a growing anxiety about what 'has been often summed up as the accidental causes of war. Various people 'have pointed out errors that have been made in the defence system of the West, sometimes in

  1883
  Britain's and sometimes within N.A.T.O. and sometimes in America's system, affecting bases in this country and the facilities which we provide. Sometimes the reports of such events have been dismissed rather lightly and those of us who have tried to point out the implications of these events, taking them individually. as they occurred, have been scoffed at as being alarmist.
  The Explanatory Statement which accompanies the Navy Estimates contains the following words under the heading "Research and Development":
  "Prominent among the projects in Admiralty research establishments are the long-range detection of fast, deep diving submarines, and the introduction of automatic means of handling the mass of tactical information which is provided by modern radar and asdic equipments."
  The Civil Lord spent a little time in his opening speech today in telling us about this.
  There was circulated in America recently—and I do not think that it has been published in this country—a brief report on a research paper presented by the Mershon National Security Programme at Ohio University, where several months were devoted to an examination by nine ot ten people of the possible accidental caused of war. By "accidental" they do not simply mean somebody pressing a button by mistake or something exploding by mistake. What they mean is the danger that a war can begin, which was neber intended by either side, through some miscalculation, through some technical or human error, through some diplomatic over-estimate of the situation or through some military miscalculation. There have military miscalculation. There have military miscalculation. There have been examples in history of such wars and the research team quotes many of them.
  They quote various ways in which this might be likely to occur and they come to the conclusion that there is a considerable chance—though not yet a probability—of a nuclear war occurring within the next ten years as a result of a mistake. One of the ways in which this might occur, so it is believed—[Laughter.] Of all subjects which have been discussed here today, I think that the possibility of the world destroying itself through error is the least matter for laughter among hon. Members opposite.
  Mr. Manuel: Very bad manners. We listened to them.
  Mrs. Hart: One of the ways in which it may occur—[Interruption.] Hon. Members opposite are concerned only with fighting a war, not with preventing it. That is how it seems from their reactions.
  The Minister referred in some detail to the introduction of electronic methods of calculation as an essential part of modern war. The Ohio report says:
  "The technical development of our over-all machinery of retaliation in the next decade presents some major problems with respect to safety and the avoidance of potentially dangerous accidents. More sensitive radars are more likely to give spurious signals. Faster reaction times will require less human decision making and a greater dependence on automation."
  Here what the report says relates to the point the Minister made today—
  "Computers may be required to discriminate reliably between missiles and meteors in a few minutes at most. Increasingly reliable, un-jammable and rapid means of communication must be built"
  The report goes on to indicate that in nuclear warfare ultimate responsibility has had to be delegated to people lower down the ladder so that there is now no one man who can give the decision as to whether a war is to be begun. Indeed, a great deal in the making of decisions which used to be done by men is now being done by automatic machinery, with all the consequences that could be involved if, as has already happened on a number of occasions, the automatic machinery jams or goes wrong. This is particularly so now that we think less of the manned bomber and more of guided missiles. Guided missiles cannot be recalled once they have started out. Once the mistake is made, a war may have begun.
  I want to know what steps are being taken within the naval research departments to ensure, as far as one can within the limitations of our nuclear deterrent policy and the Government's determination to continue with it, that safety measures are developed. What is being done to see that safety pre-cautions are kept up to date with the development of weapons? I realise that this is not a really practical possibility inasmuch as it is impossible to exclude danger completely. The logic

  1885
  of the whole of our military strategy and nuclear strategy, the logic of possessing the deterrent, is that the weapon must be ahead of safety precautions. Once one develops the weapon, one must begin to put it into operation. One must not hold back, or the other side will have it first. Therefore, one is bound to put into second place the development of safety precautions which might prevent the outbreak of accidental war.
  As the Minister and hon. Members opposite know, there are many people in this country—we shall show a small reflection of how many we are when we march at Aldermaston at Easter this year—who genuinely and fundamentally believe that the whole policy on which Western defence and these Estimates are based, that of providing deterrence in order to prevent the outbreak of war, is out of date and dangerous. If it is
  1886
  accepted—I believe it to be true—that the greatest danger of war we now face comes no longer from possible aggression but from accident, the whole theory of the deterrent goes out of the window. I know that the Government will not agree now, but I believe that the time will come when they do agree.
  In the meantime, recognising the big difference that there is between, for example, the Minister and my hon. Friends and myself on this vital matter of the deterrent and nuclear weapons, I hope that he is fully aware of the dangers implicit in the whole system. I want him to assure us that efforts are being made within his research departments to ensure that whatever safety precautions, checks and counter-checks can be introduced will come into operation as soon as possible.
  10.30 p.m.
  Mr. Patrick Wall: The hon. Lady the Member for Lanark (Mrs. Hart) referred to nuclear weapons as a provocation. I call them a deterrent—they deter other people from starting a war. To be effective the deterrent has to be kept up-to-date and the important fact about the modern deterrent is that it has prevented a third world war from starting, in spite of all the crises which have occurred since 1945.
  I should like to bring the debate back to where it started and to discuss the rôle of the Royal Navy. The conventional war, which used to play a large part in the Explanatory Statement on the Navy Estimates, does not appear this year. It refers to limited wars and global wars. I hope this is because it is generally realised that if a conventional war started, involving a major Power in Europe, a nuclear war would inevitably follow as no one possessing nuclear weapons could allow themselves to be defeated by conventional weapons. Therefore, the task facing the Armed Forces is to prevent a nuclear war starting, and, if a nuclear war should start, to play their full part, as well as dealing with these minor conflagrations which occur in various parts of the world.
  The question of the deterrent has been dealt with at great length in the two-day defence debate. The important point to bear in mind, however, is the time factor. At the moment the V-bombers carry the deterrent. We have a lot of work and money wrapped up in the V-bomber force. It is effective at the moment, but it will become less effective as the years go by. Therefore, it will have to be replaced. It will be replaced by some form of missile carried by a nuclear powered bomber or fired from the ground or from the sea.
  My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Croydon, North East (Vice-Admiral Hughes Hallett) made a very good case when he suggested that within the next ten years the deterrent should be shifted from the bomber to the Polaris submarine, and I should like to make a few comments on this point. First, on the question of cost, some hon. Members opposite have said that the cost would
  1888
  be prohibitive. The cost of a battleship or an aircraft carrier is high, and in addition, these vessels have to be protected by appropriate escort vessels and aircraft. Considered on the basis of cost, it may well be that ten Polaris submarines would cost considerably less than half this number of aircraft carriers and their escort vessels.
  Mr. Rankin: Would the hon. Gentleman tell us the cost of the mothership Proteus?
  Mr. Wall: I do not see how the cost of the mother ship Proteus enters into the question. The purpose of Proteus is to extend the range of American nuclear submarines to this side of the Atlantic. Obviously, large naval vessels need to have bases or a fleet train consisting of vessels capable of revictualling and refuelling them. The Polaris submarine needs no fleet of escort vessels or aircraft protection, which are both very costly.
  The second point I want to make on this matter relates to the use and the cost of "Dreadnought." We are now to have a second nuclear submarine. The Admiralty should think very hard before building any more anti-submarine submarines. The cost of "Dreadnought" is about £20 million, about half the cost of a nuclear Polaris submarine. It would be much better if we put our money into developing the nuclear-powered Polaris submarine than going ahead with the killer submarine such as "Dreadnought," for if killer submarines are to be effective we must possess them in large numbers in view of the existence of the Russian fleet of 400 operational submarines and they in no way contribute to the deterrent. If we spent our limited funds on Polaris submarines we should, I believe, be doing a service to the country and the taxpayers who will get real value for money. We should therefore consider very carefully whether it is necessary to go into the next generation of aircraft carriers.
  There is one other point. The question of the deterrent and who carries it is, I feel, bound up to a certain degree with Service jealousies. At the moment the R.A.F. carries the deterrent, and the R.A.F. will rightly do everything it can to hold on to the deterrent, for otherwise one of the reasons for the existence of

  1889
  the R.A.F. disappears. The Navy would like the deterrent, for it would help to build up the naval forces; so, presumably, would the Army if a properly mobile deterrent fired from the ground could be produced.
  There is a case for taking the cost of the deterrent, which is some 10 per cent. of the defence Estimates, out of the Service Estimates altogether and carrying it in the Estimates of the Minister of Defence himself in order to ensure that inter-Service jealousies which are otherwise bound to arise do not influence the Government in their decision as to the right method of carrying the deterrent.
  Mr. Paget: Is not the real answer here that there is no longer room for separate Services?
  Mr. Wall: There is an awful lot in what the hon. and learned Gentleman says. I do not think that the Government or the country are yet prepared to go that far, though this suggestion may be a stage along that road.
  The only other aspect in this connection to which I want to refer is that it will take us time to develop Polaris submarines. We have some 10 years for that while the V-force is still effective. We should, however, make progress with training and firing practice with Polaris missiles and it is not necessary at this stage to have them in a nuclear submarine. Indeed, it is not even necessary to have them in a submarine at all. I hope that the Admiralty will consider purchasing some missiles which can be installed in conventional surface warships for training purposes, which would also contribute to a degree to the deterrent. A start should be made straightaway, accepting the fact that we shall not start building up the Polaris submarine fleet for some six or seven years.
  Turning to the bushfire war, that is, the more limited type of conventional war, here the key is mobility and inter-Service training. We have heard about Transport Command and the development of the amphibious warfare squadron. I am sure that both sides of the House welcome this development. The modern method of dealing with these wars is that the first flight from the Commando carrier would go in helicopters. supported by parachute battalions. Up to now it has been impossible to support
  1890
  these marines or soldiers with the armour, but armour is very necessary. The fact that armour has to be produced makes the planning very complicated. Now that it can be produced from the assault ship and the follow-up forces can be brought in by modern L.S.Ts. which will be built under the Army Estimates.
  I should like to know when the first assault ship is likely to be completed. I appreciate that the hon. Gentleman may not be able to answer my second question which is when a second assault ship will be built but I hope that he will do all he can to press next year for a second assault ship. It is not much use having only one; these vessels have to be able to refit and repair and there must be two to be effective and to marry up with the two commando carriers.
  Also, will the hon. Gentleman do his best to get the Wessex helicopter into service as soon as possible, because only then will these Commando carriers be really effective. At the moment clouds of helicopters take off and land ashore but not very many men come out of them. Those forces will not be fully effective until they have a really effective helicopter such as the Wessex. I hope that the Admiralty will not, in order to economise, make what may be a mistake by trying to combine two functions in one aircraft—the anti-submarine function and the troop-carrying function. Troop-carrying capacity is very important to the whole concept of the Commando carriers plus the assault ship and is therefore a factor which should be stressed in this debate.
  Inter-Service training is not, perhaps, too relevant a subject for a Navy Estimate debate, but my hon. Friend has already said that he intends the Royal Regiment of Artillery to co-operate with the Commandos. I hope also that he will see that the Royal Tank Regiment co-operates because tanks are to be carried in the assault ship and training between the Armour and the Commandos is extremely important. I hope also that the Commando Brigade Headquarters are going to get plenty of training in exercises both with parachute battalions with the emphibious warfare squadron and with armour because command and control are often the key factors in these small and rapidly mounted operations.

  1891
  I hope, too, that on this matter of inter-Service training my hon. Friend is giving some consideration to bringing the three Staff Colleges a little closer together. I think that our inter-Service training at top level, that is at the I.D.C. and J.S.S.C. is good but the Staff Colleges are still organised as three separate services. It is at the lower level, the cadet colleges, where the Service loyalties are first imbibed and fostered. This is good in certain ways and bad in others and I hope that my hon. Friend and his colleagues in the Service Ministries will give consideration to combining the three cadet colleges under the same roof or rather that each of the three service colleges be organised on an inter-service basis.
  Commonwealth exercises have been referred to. They are of great importance. and here, I think, the Navy sets a very fine example to the other Services. Commonwealth exercises continue throughout the year as is shown in the Statement.
  May I mention very briefly the question brought up by hon. Members opposite of the visit of H.M.S. "Victorious" to Capetown? When I was one of the gunnery officers in a battleship which visited South Africa during the war, two of the best young officers in key gunnery positions were Indians. When we docked in Durban for a refit of some ten weeks, they were taken off the ship and put on another going to India. This was done to prevent them being subjected to the indignities of apartheid. We all dislike the racial segregation practised in South Africa. But this happened in 1943, a long time ago. Apartheid has been going on a long time, and I hope that hon. Members opposite will not go on using this kind of incident for political purposes, because it does not do the Navy any good and makes it very difficult for the sailors and ships concerned which have to visit these ports in the course of their duties for the security of the Commonwealth.
  I now turn very briefly to the question of nomenclature. Would my hon. Friend give his attention to the ghastly description "guided missile destroyer"? These vessels are not destroyers. They are over 5,000 tons and in the light cruiser category. There are now frigates of 6,000 tons in the United States navy and frigates of 600 tons in
  1892
  some of the smaller European navies. I hope that my hon. Friend will initiate with our allies some standardisation of the various types of ships. I suggest that they should be classified according to their rôles and not according to their weapons. Let us stop talking about nuclear powered this and guided missile that.
  The hon. Lady the Member for Lanark spoke about Admiralty scientists and their research work. I want to say a short word about nuclear propulsion of surface vessels. The Admiralty pioneered this form of propulsion with Dreadnought, and in 1957 initiated a study of a gas-cooled reactor for fleet tankers. That led to the Galbraith Committee which, in turn, led to the co-operation of seven firms and to a most interesting exhibition of reactors for surface vessels which many hon. Members visited at the Board of Trade some two years ago.
  In 1960 tenders were asked for reactors for a prototype for the propulsion of surface vessels, but we do not yet know whether one or other of those tenders is going to be accepted. The Admiralty pioneered this work and when it was under its control there was a sense of urgency about it. Now the United Kingdom Atomic Energy Authority and the Ministry of Transport are mainly involved and the sense of urgency seems to have gone. I hope that my hon. Friend will press the Admiralty's view. I am sure that the Admiralty would like to see a nuclear powered Fleet tanker. The trouble with the first vessel is that she will be uneconomic, and that is a very good reason why she should wear the White Ensign, and a Fleet tanker seems an ideal prototype for a study vital for the future of our shipping industry, which means so much to the defence and trade of this country.
  We are told that naval and marine recruiting is good, and it has been suggested that the Royal Marines should therefore take over some of the tasks normally allotted to the Army. I hope that my hon. Friend will not pursue that suggestion too far. One of the reasons why the recruiting figures for the Royal Marines is good is that they have good morale and training and that their task fits in with their training. They are an active Service force and train

  1893
  in such matters as helicopter carriers, parachuting, underwater swimming and so on, and they do not want a lot of new static tasks such as guard duties and garrison duties which will certainly adversely affect recruiting figures.
  I hope that my hon. Friend will be able to tell us that he is satisfied that recruiting is sufficient to man the new construction now coming along. There is nothing worse than having new ships coming out and going straight into reserve because there is not the manpower available. I do not think that the recruiting situation is anything like as bad as that, but I would like an assurance about it because there has been some doubt expressed in this matter.
  My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for The Hartlepools (Commander Kerans) referred to the Sea Cadet Corps. I hope that my hon. Friend appreciates the value of the use made of naval training facilities by both the Sea Cadet Corps and by Admiralty qualified units of Sea Scouts, which are both very appreciative of the efforts made by the Admiralty to help in their training. I hope that as the number of naval training establishments decrease—as it will in view of the decrease in shore training and in the number of vessels used for training in various ports, training facilities will continue to be available for these youngsters.
  I also hope that my hon. Friend will give attention to the fact that Admiralty qualified units of Sea Scouts are not able to receive naval boats—whalers, dinghies and other small sailing boats—on permanent loan in the same way as is allowed for Sea Cadets. The Navy could do much more about providing small boats. We have all seen these excess naval boats, whalers and so on lying in the boat ponds. The Navy may not want to sell them out of the Service, but it can and does lend them to Sea Cadet units on permanent loan but the regulations prevent them being loaned to Admiralty qualified units of Sea Scouts. There is no reason for that rule, and I hope that my hon. Friend will consider reviewing it. I am sure he will agree that Sea Cadets and Sea Scouts provide some of the best recruits for the Service.
  1894
  I do not think that any hon. Member has mentioned the W.R.N.S. and the M.W.R.N.S., as we called those who served with the Royal Marines. The W.R.N.S. have just celebrated their 21st anniversary and we should all express our appreciation of the great work that these ladies have done for the senior Service.
  10.48 p.m.
  Mr. John Rankin: I was astonished a little while ago to discover that American submarines were not covered by the Vote, especially as the Civil Lord, the hon. and gallant Member for The Hartlepools (Commander Kerans) and my hon. Friends had referred to the American submarine missile ship arriving at Holy Loch. It seems strange that that should be ruled out of order when mention of the advent of the Dutch in the Medway has been accepted as perfectly in order. I would have thought that of the two the arrival of the American Polaris vessel in Holy Loch was the one which provoked most discontent, especially in Scotland. While those in the Medway area may regard it with equanimity, most people in Scotland associated with the Labour Party, the trade union movement and the cooperative movement have shown no support for the advent of this vessel to the Holy Loch.
  The hon. Member for Haltemprice (Mr. Wall) said that he would try to bring the debate back to its proper function, the rôle of the Navy. That is a most interesting point, and I am sorry that I have so little time to deal with it because, unfortunately for me, I have a great deal to say and only five minutes in which to say it. The hon. Member for Rye (Mr. Godman Irvine) was also interested in the rôle of the Navy. The point about its rôle was answered by the Civil Lord who said it was world-wide. The map which accompanies the Estimates shows that is so.
  It is very appropriate to ask how we fit in that rôle with the rôle of the American forces. I pointed out on Monday that President Kennedy had laid down as policy that they must be ready with all speed to deal with any problem at any spot on the globe at a moment's notice. That is the American rôle and, from his speech, it would seem to be the rôle laid down by the Civil

  1895
  Lord for our Navy. If his speech had had the chorus:
  "Rule Britannia, Britannia rules the waves"
  the music would have been a suitable accompaniment to his words. I hope that when he replies to the debate the Civil Lord will tell us whether the American military and naval forces are to be in the same spots as the British Navy at those times when they may be needed. Or is there some agreement or arrangement whereby the two forces will fit into each others rôles at a moments notice? From what we have heard so far from the other side and from this side of the Atlantic it seems that, despite the alliance about which we hear so much, when it comes to carrying it out in practice there is not a great deal of co-operation. I asked the Civil Lord yesterday if he could tell us when Polaris was arriving here; but he does not know. Yet it is in the Navy Estimates with which we are dealing—
  Mr. C. Ian Orr-Ewing: May I put that right?
  Mr. Rankin: I have only two minutes left or I would give way to the hon. Gentleman. That co-operation would seem to be not very close.
  In his speech opening the debate, the hon. Gentleman said that the whole philosophy of his policy depended on the maintenance of our economic strength and keeping up the strength of sterling. He knows that in 1957 the present Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations used almost the same words. He said that under his programme we would be able to stabilise the total cost of defence and the cost of the Navy. Exports would increase, and investment would increase.
  I want to refer the Civil Lord to the available statistics. Investments have not increased. Exports at the moment are giving the Government the gravest worry because they, too, have not increased—
  The Temporary Chairman (Sir Harry Legge-Bourke): Order. I have allowed the hon. Member to go very wide, but I really do not think that exports and trade policy can be regarded as a matter for the Navy Estimates.
  Mr. Rankin: I must, of course, accept your Ruling, Sir Harry, but the Civil Lord himself referred to the need to
  1896
  maintain the economy and keep up the strength of sterling. That can be done only if we maintain our exports, and our balance-of-payments position. Based on those two items, the hon. Gentleman's policy has failed. He said that he wanted the Polaris-carrying submarine, but that costs too much£50 million.
  One of the chief troubles that faces the Civil Lord is that when the five-year plan started the Estimate was £316 million; today, it is £413 million. That is an increase of almost £100 million over the period during which the plan has been in operation. The Civil Lord's Policy is failing, as he well knows, and it will continue to fail as long as he pursues the policy his Government is presently following.
  The Temporary Chairman: Mr. Willis.
  10.57 p.m.
  Mr. E. G. Willis (Edinburgh, East)rose—
  Brigadier Clarke: On a point of order, Sir Harry. I, as an hon. Member for Portsmouth, represent 25,000 people who are defended on this Vote, and I have been trying to make a speech all the evening. I have taken part in 11 debates on the Navy Estimates and I have never known an hon. Member for Portsmouth not to be called. It is quite disgraceful that you should neglect the premier port of Great Britain in a Navy Estimates debate.
  The Temporary Chairman: The hon. and gallant Member has been in die House long enough to know that the right to decide who shall be called is entirely a matter for the Chair, and the hon. and gallant Member must not challenge that right.
  Brigadier Clarke: On a further point of order. Until very recently this debate could go on all night. Now we have made new rules and it stops at midnight. At five to eleven I got up—
  The Temporary Chairman: Order. With respect to the hon. and gallant Member, that is not a point of order. I would say that the fact that he has not been called in debate must not be taken as a reflection on himself. It is simply that the Chair has the right to call whomsoever it chooses, and I have called the hon. Member for Edinburgh, East, Mr. Willis.
  Mr. Willis: I am sorry that the hon. and gallant Member for Portsmouth, West (Brigadier Clarke) has not been called. I would not have got up just yet, but I know that the Civil Lord needs a certain amount of time in which to answer—
  Brigadier Clarke: Will the hon. Member give way?
  Mr. Willis: I also have quite a lot I want to say.
  We have had a very interesting debate—
  Brigadier Clarke: On a point of order, Sir Harry. Could I make my speech on the Army Estimates if I cannot make it on the Navy Estimates?
  The Temporary Chairman: The hon. and gallant Gentleman knows quite well that that is not a point of order, and it is an abuse of the point of order procedure for him to try to attempt to make that point.
  Mr. Willis: We have had a very interesting debate, and, as usual, it has ranged wide, geographicaly, from Beith, in Ayrshire, to Hong Kong. It has also ranged wide historically—we have dealt with the development of the Nore Command, and with the Mad Mullah of Somaliland. I am sorry that the hon. and gallant Member for Portsmouth, West did not get into the debate, but the fact that one or two hon. Members have not been able to speak illustrates the interest there is in this Vote—an interest that is justified by the very vast sums that we are now considering, and also by the fact that these sums increase every year.
  This year, the amount is £413 million, as against £397 million last year, and when we add to that the expenditure on the Navy, which, though coming under the Civil Estimates is still naval expenditure, we get a figure of £418 million as against £401 million last year. I should put out to the Civil Lord that there is a mistake in the Estimates in the sumnation at the foot of page 6. I think that the Admiralty is £30 million out. It might be a trifle to the Admiralty. but I am sure that the Treasury will be interested. I imagine that it should be something like £418 million instead of £448 million.
  Mr. C. Ian Orr-Ewing: A corrigendum was issued. I am sorry that the hon. Member did not have a copy. It was in the Vote Office and was put in all the later documents to be issued.
  Mr. Willis: It certainly was not in the document that was issued to me. I was interested to notice that the Navy expects to spend 25 per cent. more on legal expenditure—I do not know why —and, what is still more alarming, 50 per cent. more on stationery and printing. Surely, having got more men ashore, we are not occupying their time more and more filling in forms and producing documents for fewer and fewer ships. At some time, if not tonight, the hon. Gentleman might let me know the reason for this big increase of 50 per cent. on printing and stationery.
  Not only are the Estimates vast and increasing, but, like all Defence Estimates, they are by their very nature wasteful. They are made more wasteful by the fact that Government policy changes, which necessitates the changing of programmes, which necessitates numerous decisions, any one of which can result in the waste of many millions of pounds. That has happened frequently during the past few years. Having taken part in these debates and watched this process going on for a considerable time, I am bound to say that our procedure in the House of Commons over these Estimates is most unsatisfactory. I have said this before and I say it again.
  A number of items in connection with these Estimates have been raised today, but it is obvious that only the fringe of the matter has been touched. We have the Public Accounts Committee, but it examines the expenditure only after the money has been spent. We have the Estimates Committee, but, as I tried to explain rather inadequately on 14th February, this is a blunt instrument. Then we have the Treasury control. It is almost impossible even for the Treasury to control some of these expenditures.
  When a missile the original cost of which was £1½ million ultimately costs £40 million, or when we get a programme, such as that on the "Victorious," originally estimated to cost £3, £4 or £5 million, but ultimately costing £15 or £20 million, it becomes exceedingly difficult for the Treasury to check. I am

  1899
  convinced that sooner or later we shall have to do something about our procedures in connection with these Estimates.
  Vote A is for 100,000 men this year, to be reduced with the ending of conscription to 88,000. By and large, no great problem presents itself, but I find it difficult to reconcile the statement by the Minister of Defence on Tuesday that there are more volunteers than the Navy can recruit. That hardly accords with the statement in paragraph 53 of the Explanatory Statement that during 1960 recruiting was below requirements. I am also fascinated by the fact that we recruited only 5,251 men out of some 15,000. I listened to the Civil Lord's explanations of this and could not help wondering whether some of the requirements were not too high. Re-engagement rates remain good at 65 per cent., but there are branches in which the figure is very low. I was disappointed that the branch with the lowest rate of re-engagement was the electrical artificer branch, which is one of the most important in the Service because of the expanding amount of electrical work.
  I have always believed that the best thing is a long service Navy, and it is important that we should try to keep the re-engagement rate as high as possible. If we are to do that, the structure must be correct. I have frequently asked about the Committee on Lower Deck Structure, but I do not get much satisfaction from the Civil Lord's replies. I ask him again to say something more some time about what he calls the programme of experiments in the organisation of manpower which will be taking place in selected ships over the next few years and which will be based on the Committee's recommendations.
  One of the events of the past year in relation to the rating structure which I very much regret is the rejection by the Admiralty of the idea of a master rating. That falls badly upon the mechanician and artificer branches, where a man has to spend a long period at the end of his service without prospect of further advance. There is no doubt, from the Civil Lord's own figures, that the chief petty officer is at a disadvantage compared with the W.O.1 or W.O.2 in the Army, and the W.O. in the Royal Air Force.
  1900
  I understand that the Admiralty accepted that but it could not find an administrative scheme which would make the master rating possible. I hope that next time this is considered—as I have no doubt it will be—the Admiralty will try to put the job of making an administrative scheme into the hands of somebody who is determined to rectify this injustice.
  I am also disappointed with something the Civil Lord seemed to be delighted about—that is, that 32 per cent. of commissions last year were made from the lower deck. That is the lowest figure for many years. I have the figures here. It was 39 per cent. in 1954; 45 per cent. in 1955; 53 per cent. in 1956; 44 per cent. in 1957; and 46 per cent. in 1958.
  Mr. C. Ian Orr-Ewing: I was referring to all those commissioned in the Navy. I was not quoting the annual figure. Thirty per cent. of our present officers came from the lower deck.
  Mr. Willis: In answer to me a week or two ago, the hon. Gentleman said that the percentage of commissions from the lower deck last year was down to 32 per cent. That is unsatisfactory, and a matter which should be looked into, because if there is to be a proper promotion ladder then that figure might have to be higher.
  I am glad to note the increase in the Vote for accommodation for personnel, but I was exceedingly disappointed that having raised so high the hopes concerning the rebuilding of the "Caledonia" he dashed them this year by not proceeding with the work. I hope that his promise for 1962–63 will not go the way that the promise for 1961–62 went. "Caledonia" has been a long time in the queue.
  I was also interested in paragraph 75 on sea training, because I understand that this training is going exceedingly well. It has been suggested to me in respect of artificer apprentices in H.M.S. "Chaplet" that once the scheme is settled it might be extended. The reports I have had have practically all been favourable.
  Paragraph 73 deals with the ships entering the Service in an efficient condition, and that links up with another matter I have raised recently—the question of

  1901
  availability. Despite the fine work of the Fleet maintenance units and the Civil Lord's assurance in December, and again today, I still understand that there is great concern in the Service about the availability of ships.
  I am informed on very good authority indeed that there are cases where the availability has been as low as 35 per cent. This seems to be most serious when we are dealing with ships which cost many millions of pounds, and I hope that the Minister will look at the matter again. I am not satisfied because time at sea for one or two ships does not seem to me to be exactly the same thing as full availability.
  I am glad that the number of admirals has been reduced and will be reduced still further. I hope that that will mean, in addition to reducing the number in the medical department, that there will be a reduction at the head of the training department of the Admiralty.
  I come now to the ships and the fleet. Here we are at a disadvantage because we never quite know what the Government's policies are. The Government themselves, of course, recognise this by the fact that they endeavour to explain them each year in the Explanatory Statement, and each year we have a different statement of the policies and purposes for which we have a Navy. We also know practically nothing of the general pattern of alliances and commitments into which our naval defence effort has to fit. This has been said over and over again today in the debate. My hon. Friend the Member for Dunbartonshire, West (Mr. Steele) and I have raised it on previous occasions, and it has come out clearly again today. Without that knowledge, it is difficult to make judgments.
  As I understand Admiralty and Government policy in the past few years, it has been, first, to produce the forces and ships for the purpose of dealing with what has been called the local conflict; secondly, to build up a strong antisubmarine force; thirdly, to back their efforts with an effective nuclear strike force.
  With regard to the Navy's work in connection with meeting local conflicts, I welcome the coming into commission of the "Bulwark" and also the work
  1902
  proceeding on the "Albion". I welcome also the decision to proceed with the assault ship mentioned in paragraph 30, but I think that the hon. Gentleman should give us more information about when we may expect this. He should elaborate on what the Minister of Defence said on Tuesday last:
  "As the Navy at the moment is a very profitable field for recruiting, and the Marines in particular, there is certainly every intention to recruit there to the maximum for which we can provide equipment and vessels ".—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 28th February, 1961; Vol. 635, c. 1507.]
  That can mean anything, of course. It means that the Navy can proceed until it is doing practically the whole of the work of the Army. That might be a good thing, but we ought to be told what the Admiralty has in view. What is its programme, and at what speed will it proceed with it?
  I think that my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget) made a very pertinent analysis of anti-submarine forces and their possible uses. I myself cannot visualise a war in which we suffer large-scale submarine attack in which we would not be going it "with our allies. Neither can I visualise a war in which we suffered large-scale submarine attack without the very great danger of it becoming a nuclear war. It is precisely for that reason that we must press the hon. Gentleman to give us an answer about what the Admiralty's policy is.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Dunbartonshire, West asked the question two years ago. I asked last year. My hon. and learned Friend the Member for Northampton asked the question earlier today, and I ask it again now. Is it still the policy of the Government, first, to strike with maximum atomic capability the enemy airfields and naval bases which support the forces which would seize control of the seas? We ought to be told this. Or is the fact that we have be building up this antisubmarine force an indication that the Government are withdrawing from their policy?
  The Committee is entitled to know. This is an exceedingly serious matter. If the submarine threat is the serious reality it is claimed to be—and I am not objecting to that claim at the moment—then the possible use of atomic weapons to meet it is as dangerous a

  1903
  possibility for this nation as the very much more frequently discussed first use of atomic weapons in Europe. Therefore, we should be told more about this. We have the right to be told more.
  We should also be told very much more about the policy of the Navy and nuclear weapons. This has become very important at present, when the Navy is beginning to "fly its kites" and make its first claims for aircraft carrier replacements. I noticed that the First Lord, at the Trafalgar Day dinner, said:
  "We are at the moment discussing the problem of a new generation of aircraft carriers and, perhaps even more important, the aircraft which would go with them, because on the aircraft would depend the size and shape of the ship."
  This was confirmed in a reply given to a Question of mine on 16th November. This is a complete reversal of Government policy announced in 1958, because the then Minister of Defence, now Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations, told us that we could not contemplate building more and bigger carriers which, with their aircraft, would cost over £100 million each. We do not know what the Admiralty has in mind, but we do know they might even cost more than this, unless the Admiralty has in mind building much smaller ships than are being built in the United States at the present time.
  Why has this policy been reversed? Surely, before we agree to be irrevocably committed to this programme, we should be given much more information about it. Can we afford to face up to the expenditure of what might be £400 million or £500 million in this way? The purpose, as I understand it, and as explained by the Minister of Defence, is to make a contribution to the Western deterrent and in order that our views might carry weight in the discussions going on. That is a very big price to pay for one's views to be listened to. Or is it part of the Minister of Defence's policy of having the maximum number of options about which he spoke on Tuesday? The right hon. Gentleman spoke of the TSR. 2, and told us what was being done in connection with Polaris—and we know the possibilities of this. It is very nice, all this, but the nation cannot afford these options, any
  1904
  more than we can afford to duplicate the overwhelming strategic nuclear power of our chief N.A.T.O. ally, America. The Government have a clear and definite responsibility to make some decisions at the 'present time if we are to avoid wasteful expenditure of many tens, and perhaps hundreds of millions, of pounds.
  The Minister of Defence also spoke about the necessity for flexibility, but I suggest that flexibility can be bought at too great a price. In 'making the decisions which I believe have to be made, every argument, indeed, every trend, points to the necessity for making them on the basis of collective security as distinct from individual defence effort. When we measure the situation in these terms and have in mind our own economic capacity, it is very difficult indeed, if not impossible, to accept the need for a new fleet of aircraft carriers and aircraft as an addition to or replacement of our present nuclear capacity.
  I stress this because I think that it is important that we should make our voices heard now. It will be too late in a few years' time. I can understand the Admiralty wanting to make these plans and proceed with them. I do not blame the Admiralty for wanting to do this. But this might well represent the thin end of the wedge which, when finally driven home, will cause us to repent.
  I know what happens. The Admiralty says, as the First Lord said at the Trafalgar Day dinner, that we must have support aircraft carriers for our commando troops and our assault craft, and that sort of thing. But if we are to spend £20 million, £30 million, £40 million, or £50 million on an aircraft carrier, somebody at the Admiralty is bound to say, "We are spending £40 million or £50 million. Let us make it bigger and better. Let us put in bigger and better equipment. Let us build it to carry such-and-such an aircraft." This is how things are developed in the Navy.
  When we look at the world today, and attempt to foresee the possible emergencies that might arise, it appears very difficult to visualise any wars in which the Royal Navy would be engaged alone. Inevitably, either our Commonwealth or N.A.T.O. or S.E.A.T.O. or CENTO allies would be involved. It is precisely on this point that we have failed to get much information. It is true that

  1905
  we got a list of the exercises that are carried out. The Civil Lord paid lip service to this co-operation at the beginning of his speech. We have also had some other references to the necessity for these exercises. But we never get the real pattern into which our defence forces are supposed to fit, and this makes an intelligent judgment on the types of ship and the fleet dispositions very difficult indeed far hon. Members.
  I can understand that great difficulties are involved in trying to give this overall picture, but, making full allowance for this, I cannot help feeling that the real trouble is that the forward thinking of the Admiralty is still based far too much on our individual national defence requirements. At a time when every consideration drives us towards collective defence and we proclaim through the mouths of Ministers our acceptance of the necessity for interdependence, this does not seem to make very much sense.
  Last year, I raised a number of points about the Western European Union Report, and I was shocked that the hon. Gentleman had not even seen the Report. One of the things that I raised with him was the question of an overall balanced force in N.A.T.O. made up of specialised units contributed by the various N.A.T.O. Powers. The reply that I got from the hon. Gentleman after the debate was this:
  "On the suggestion that N.A.T.O. should attempt to produce an overall balanced force by asking members of the Alliance to concentrate on the development of specialised units, we would support the principle of balanced collective forces. The world-wide national commitments of the United Kingdom do, however, limit the scope for implementation of this suggestion by United Kingdom naval forces."
  I suggest to the hon. Gentleman that the so-called world-wide national commitments should really be matters for collective consideration and decision between as many of the nations concerned as possible. After all, the maintenance of peace in any part of the world is not the peculiar concern of Britain alone. It is also the concern of other nations. Indeed, as weapons are piled up throughout the world and destructive power is multiplied indefinitely, it becomes the primary concern of every nation. It is this fact which gives credibility and, indeed, urgency to the necessity for multilateral disarmament and the creation of a system of collective security. It is this fact which
  1906
  offers the promise that ultimately we shall have no call for vast expenditures such as we are asked to approve tonight.
  That is why I believe the House of Commons must emphasise and insist that the policies and plans of the Admiralty must be reconciled with the hopes of the next few years. This might, and no doubt will, entail the taking of risks, but these will be small compared with those we run if we fail to do so.
  11.27 p.m.
  Mr. C. Ian Orr-Ewing: I should like to start by congratulating the hon. and learned Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget) upon, not his first appearance at the Dispatch Box, but his first speech on these Estimates for the Opposition.
  I should also like to congratulate all the many hon. Members who have taken part in the debate. I do not think we have ever had a better attendance at a Navy Estimates debate. I am only sorry that many hon. Members have not had a chance to speak. There were one or two rather long speeches, so one or two hon. Members were kept out. However, the attendance and the vigour of the speeches show the interest that there is, the reviving interest, throughout the nation in the Navy's doings in the shape which is now emerging after the last five years.
  I should like, straightaway, to associate myself with the remarks made by several hon. Members about the Secretary of the Admiralty who, as is generally known, is retiring at the end of this month. On behalf of my colleagues on the Board of Admiralty, I associate myself with the very warm expressions. Many hon. Members have served under him. I believe that there are seven First Lords and twelve Civil Lords and Financial Secretaries who have been guided through the Estimates season and guided in all their work by him.
  Sir John Lang makes a worthy successor to Pepys. He has been at the Admiralty for fifteen years as Secretary and thus is the doyen of all the Permanent Secretaries throughout Whitehall. I know that the Lords Alexander, Hall, Pakenham—now the Earl of Longford—Cilcennin, Hailsham and Selkirk and my noble Friend the First Lord of the Admiralty, who is at the moment in the Peers' Gallery, would wish

  1907
  to be associated with the expression of thanks. Two Members who have served under Sir John—the right hon. Member for West Bromwich (Mr. Dugdale) and my hon. Friend the Member for Dorset, West (Mr. Wingfield Digby)—are with us during this debate.
  I do not think that any Civil Lord, or anyone else winding up this debate, could have had so much contradictory advice given to him. One hon. Member wanted more nuclear submarines. Other hon. Members wanted more aircraft carriers. Some wanted no aircraft carriers. Some wanted no attention to anti-submarine warfare; others wanted far greater attention to it. Therefore, perhaps it is a little difficult to summarise all these views in a single speech of half an hour.
  I should like to deal, first, with some of the points made by the hon. Member for Edinburgh, East (Mr. Willis). He queried the number of rejections among our applicants to join the Service. I undertook earlier to make a special study of this. As I said earlier, we have studied the eye-sight problem most carefully. Almost 40 per cent. of the medical rejections are on account of eyesight disabilities, including colour blindness. We have relaxed the requirements in one or two branches, and I do not think there is much more that can be done, but we will keep the subject under review.
  On the question of the Committee on Rating Structure, I know that the hon. Gentleman has been extremely patient. It has gone on for a very long time. I can only say that when the experiments are undertaken I will keep him informed.
  On the question of the assault ship, the hon. Gentleman asked me for a date. I am not in a position to give it. It will certainly be ready and operational before the present amphibious warfare squadron is worn out. We have yet to go to tender and when we do that we shall clear up the date when we may expect it.
  On the question of aircraft carriers, I would like to refer—
  Mr. Willis: Will the hon. Gentleman comment on the question which I asked about the Minister of Defence's statement? What actually is the Government's policy?
  Mr. Orr-Ewing: My right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence said, and I confirmed this in my opening speech, that we would recruit a fifth Commando. We have to start organising units straightaway for the second Commando carrier, but it is much too early to start for the assault ship. As the amphibious warfare squadron is phased out the assault ship will be phased in.
  The hon. Gentleman asked for a little more about the future of aircraft carriers. He asked whether they would really be necessary—I think that he implied that perhaps they were unnecessary—and whether we were changing our policy. I would reiterate the words I used in opening the debate. I said that if the deployment of sea and air power, including support of the Army abroad, is to continue to be one of the tasks of the Navy, then aircraft carriers will be a necessity. I did not state that it was to be, but if it is the Government's decision that it is to be a continuing task of the Navy, then we shall obviously have to have another generation of aircraft carriers.
  I was asked by the hon. Member for St. Ives (Mr. G. R. Howard) where we stood on vertical take-off aircraft, and whether, perhaps, these could be used on aircraft carriers. There are a lot of problems about the vertical take-off aircraft, not least the ground effect. When the aircraft comes in over a carrier there may be 60 ft. between the sea level and the flight deck. It is like flying suddenly over a cliff. The exact way in which ground effect will react on the aircraft in these circumstances is not known. Moreover, when the flight deck might be pitching to the extent of another 20 ft. it becomes even more uncertain. Will the around effect cushion the aircraft or will it destroy it? These are matters which must be carefully studied.
  I must also add that it is by no means certain that the vertical take-off aircraft is the best solution for the Navy. If we have a ship with an air squadron personnel of probably 500, and a ship's complement of probably another 500, about 1,000 men in a ship, we might as well have a flat top on it making it an orthodox carrier. It is a debatable question and one of balance of advantage, when we have a ship of 20,000 tons with about 1,000 men in it. It may be better to use a catapult and steam, which can

  1909
  easily be raised, to get the aircraft off, with arresting hawsers to intercept aircraft when landing rather than impose the extra load on the aircraft required to give it a VTOL capability, a load which limits its performance throughout its sortie, There may be intrinsic disadvantages in vertical take-off as far as the Navy is concerned.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Gillingham (Mr. Burden) spoke movingly about the closure of the Nore Command. On 31st March, the Commander-in-thief of the Nore will haul down his flag and the Command will cease to exist. We intend to mark its passing with a ceremonial parade, a march past, the laying up of the Queen's Colour and a service at St. George's Church and at the barracks at Chatham. I, for one, shall be present.
  According to my researches, the Nore Command was established over 200 years ago, when Sir Isaac Townshend was appointed Commander-in-Chief of His Majesty's ships and vessels in the Rivers Thames and Medway. As my hon. Friend himself said, Chatham Dockyard is going on, and it is going on in the most vigorous way. In fact, it is the pilot yard for our experimental reorganisation.
  I was asked by the hon. and learned Member for Northampton and the hon. Member for Accrington (Mr. H. Hynd) and other hon. Members whether I could give a further report about our combing of the Navy's tail—the number of shore establishments. During the last five years, we have seen a major reduction in the shore establishments and I would like at once to thank hon. Members for their co-operation. I know that it is sometimes difficult to be a good constituency Member and to guard the taxpayer's pocket with the same assiduity. Hon. Members have been most tolerant, especially when we have had to close shore establishments in an area where there has been temporary unemployment and when the interests of getting the best and the greatest number of operational ships to sea has necessitated closing our shore establishments.
  The Way Ahead Committee has been tackling this problem with vigour and has done extremely well. We estimate that by 1962 about 7,000 naval posts
  1910
  ashore will have been abolished. Civilian posts will have been reduced by a total of about 40,000, and a financial saving of about £15½ million per annum will have been achieved. So hon. Members' tolerance and their co-operation have had a salutary effect.
  The hon. Member for Central Ayrshire (Mr. Manuel) raised a matter on which he and I have had a great deal of correspondence. My predecessor went to inspect the quarters concerned and I am grateful for the help that the hon. Member has been able to give me in my negotiations with the local council to build replacement houses. The council has already agreed to build ten houses and we hope that it will build others. Before the council can be convinced, it naturally wants to know how many Admiralty tenants can guarantee that they will accept a new house, not at the rent which the hon. Member quoted, but, I am afraid, at the very much higher rent which would have to be charged for a new house. We have asked the staff association concerned for its views on the number of people who would like these newer houses at the higher rents, and as soon as we have those views, I shall be in communication with the hon. Member and the local authorities.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, North (Mr. Stratton Mills), on behalf of his Ulster Unionist colleagues, touched on the problems of Ulster. It is fair to say that he was not the only hon. Member in the debate who sought some of the orders which are to be placed in the near future. I am sure that he appreciated that Admiralty orders cannot solve the present recession in the shipbuilding industry on its own. It is a much larger problem than that.
  As he knows, Harland and Wolff will have the opportunity to tender for the two guided missile destroyers. As the firm is currently building the "Kent", it will have a great deal of experience and should be able to cost very accurately. I therefore hope that its tender will be keenly competitive.
  I assure my hon. Friend that Harland and Wolff will be given an opportunity to tender for all naval orders which it has the facilities to build. We take employment factors into account when deciding areas from which to invite tenders, but, when the tenders are in, my

  1911
  hon. Friend will understand that we must be guided by the price, because that is only fair to the other tenderers who have made an effort and who are competing.
  I am going to Belfast tomorrow morning to watch the handing over of the "Vikrant" from Harland and Wolff's yard to the Indian Navy, and I will then have an opportunity to visit the yard. We understand the difficulties there and we are certainly considering them with sympathy, but I cannot be too hopeful about the outcome.
  My hon. Friend the Member for St. Ives raised a number of issues. He asked about cross-operating between the R.A.F. and the Royal Navy. Royal Navy Aircraft can, of course, operate from R.A.F. bases, but the current generation of R.A.F. aircraft cannot operate either on to or out of carriers, because they are not stressed for the purpose. Helicopters can certainly be cross-operated. As I said in my opening speech, the "Ark Royal", during exercises in the Mediterranean, had under its control both Royal Air Force and United States aircraft. This illustrates the comprehensive way in which our control facilities can be used by other Services.
  My hon. Friend also asked whether we could not make more minesweepers available for seamanship training and the question of minesweepers was also raised by the right hon. Member for West Bromwich. We acknowledge that the minesweeper, the coastal minesweeper particularly, is an excellent means of seamanship training. It is cheap, comparatively easily manned and is becoming in many ways a maid-of-all-work. When the ceremony at Oléron took place last year, it was not possible for a frigate to get up to Oléron and an R.N.R. minesweeper had to convey the party ashore. I think that it was from my hon. Friend's division, the Bristol Division of the R.N.R.
  Not only can the minesweeper carry out seamanship training cheaply and economically, but they can get to places which bigger ships cannot touch. Nevertheless, I do not see much case for building more minesweepers, however much orders may be wanted in smaller shipyards, because if my hon. Friend studies the numbers of those in reserve
  1912
  he will find that our stocks are considerable and many are laid up in cradles at Hythe and elsewhere.
  My hon. Friend also asked when we could give an old carrier to Australia. I should point out that Australia has the "Sydney" already in reserve as well as the "Melbourne" in operation. If she wanted to introduce a commando rôle she has that means, and I have no doubt that my hon. Friend's remarks will be read there.
  My hon. Friend asked me a question which I believe he asked last year and which I did not answer. It was: how much of our research and development effort is being spent on undersea warfare? Last year, it was £1·9 million and this year it has been stepped up to £2·8 million. This emphasises there is a tremendous increase in the attention we are paying to this aspect of naval warfare.
  I am most grateful to the hon. and learned Member for Northampton for his encouraging emphasis on the Navy's rôle in combined operations and on the underlying gravity of our anti-submarine warfare problems, and for again making my point about the advantages of mobility given by the sea. I have studied, as I expect he has, the Daily Herald and various cases put by the hon. Member for Coventry, East (Mr. Cross-man) and others—the official Labour party policy, or anyway the policy of the hon. Member for Coventry, East, who is Chairman of the Labour Party. As I understand it, it is, first, to end the present dependence on nuclear weapons of N.A.T.O. forces in Europe. I think that even the official policy says that ultimately Britain must opt out of the nuclear deterrent and depend upon the United States—phase out when we come to the end of the present generation of V-bombers.
  I think that that has been said from the other side of the Committee. If that is so, it surely arises that we must have stronger shield forces. That does not mean stronger forces on the ground only or in the air only, but stronger conventional forces, ground. air and naval. If so, I cannot quite follow the argument of the hon. and learned Member that we ought not to be spending money on new frigates, new ships, but ought to be

  1913
  using, as he implied, 2nd XI ships and not modernising ships and building new ones in the way we are doing.
  How could we carry out exercises with our N.A.T.O. allies and set the example that we have always set in naval spheres to the Dutch, the West Germans, the French and the Belgians if we are to field a 2nd XI and be playing with their 1st XI? If this matter is thought out fundamentally, it will be seen that Britain cannot afford to have a 2nd XI when she is so dependent on her alliances. I ask him to re-read what he said and, perhaps, read my argument. too. The hon. and learned Member may be persuaded that there is something in my case.
  I think that every new Civil Lord comes to his appointment with sympathy for the 2nd XI argument. When I first arrived in the post to which I have been appointed, I confess that, I too, was one of those who were attracted by the argument that we were doing too much to our ships. I do not think so now. However, the stage comes in the life of every ship—about sixteen years in the case of a frigate, which is lightly built, nowadays—when it no longer becomes economical to go on overhauling the hull, changing the plates and, possibly, the propulsion machinery. It is then far cheaper to build anew rather than to try to put new wine into old bottles. I think that our policy of modernising existing ships, as far as possible, and a constant and steady new building programme, building the scientific developments of recent years into all our ships, is the right one—
  Mr. Paget: My case is that we are giving much too high a priority to a generalised submarine war—which I think is most unlikely—as against an insufficient priority to the mobile, combined operations rôle which, within the limits of the things that are available to us, is, I think, much more important. That was my point. Of course, if we had unlimited resources we would like everything new, but we would rather have larger forces even if less new.
  Mr. Orr-Ewing: I do not disagree with the hon. and learned Gentleman. If he looks at my noble Friend's Explanatory Statement and at my speech he will see that in recent years we have moved towards a greater concentration on our
  1914
  cold-war capability—and I think that he acknowledged that in various ways.
  I was asked by the hon. Member for Accrington and by my hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Devonport (Miss Vickers) about the run-down at Hong Kong. We are now down to total numbers of about 200, and I do not think that there is much room to go lower as long as we are to provide facilities for visiting ships and for the concentration there of a division of minesweepers. I do not hold out much hope of going much further in that direction.
  My hon. Friend also asked about the Royal Naval Barracks at Devonport and the rumour that £1 million was to be spent on them. Those barracks, like so many of our barracks, are over 100 years old. At some time in the future we shall, just as the Army has had to do, have to modernise our barracks and spend—I do not know how much it will cost, but it will be a considerable sum of money. However, the complete plans are by no means finalised—the programme must be carried out in stages—and it is much too early to put in a detailed estimate of that sort.
  My hon. Friend also touched on the Royal Marine Barracks at Stonehouse. Up to now, I have been talking about reduced shore establishments, so it might be refreshing to talk about pressure in the other direction. The future of Stone-house Barracks is still not settled. We hope eventually to deploy two Royal Marine Commandos in the United Kingdom. At present, our only home-based Commando is at Bickleigh, where the accommodation will need to be replaced within the next few years.
  We are, therefore, looking for good quality accommodation for two Commandos. At one time, it seemed that it might be a good plan to house one of them at Pembroke Dock, but we dropped the idea largely because of the increased organisational problems and overheads if we had too widely separated Marine Barracks. There was room for only one Commando in South Wales. We are looking at other possibilities, including the modernisation of Stonehouse Barracks to take one Commando, but it is difficult to combine maximum efficiency and running costs with a minimum of capital expenditure. It is obviously more desirable to have the two

  1915
  together, and we are studying that problem.
  I turn to the subject of cruisers. In his opening remarks, the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Northampton made disparaging remarks about cruisers, yet the whole burden of his remarks was that we should strengthen the Navy in the cold war. The cruiser is surely the ideal ship for the cold war. It has great endurance—which is tremendously invaluable in the open spaces of such areas as the Indian Ocean—high speed, good sea-keeping qualities, and very powerful armament for bombardment, and so on—
  Mr. Emrys Hughes rose—
  Mr. Orr-Ewing: Is it on the point?
  Mr. Emrys Hughes: I only wanted to ask why we wanted cruisers in the cold war in the Indian Ocean.
  Mr. Orr-Ewing: We may also want them in the Persian Gulf. We do not know where troubles will arise but we can usually get there. That is the advantage of our mobility.
  Mr. Charles Fletcher-Cooke: If cruisers are not useful in the cold war, why are there so many Russian cruisers? How does the hon. Gentleman explain that?
  Mr. Emrys Hughes: The hon. and learned Member for Darwen (Mr. Fletcher-Cooke) has not been present for the debate.
  Mr. Orr-Ewing: A cruiser can also help to "mother" small ships in their maintenance and carry, as we did in a cold-war operation, a whole battalion of between 600 and 700 troops from Jamaica to British Guiana, although in uncomfortable circumstances. This is of tremendous value in a cold-war operation. A cruiser can also land her own marines, which often is invaluable.
  Mr. Paget: The hon. Gentleman is being most generous in this matter. Why have we scrapped 10 cruisers?
  Mr. Orr-Ewing: Because we wanted to come to a modern cruiser with a modern armament, and this we have in the "Tiger" cruisers. I know that there has been criticism in the past about the guns of the "Tiger", but these difficulties are now almost ironed out. The
  1916
  "Tiger" looks to be emerging as a very successful cruiser. I believe that vessels of this type will be some of our most valuable ships for the cold-war job. Each of the four 6-in. guns of the "Tiger" can fire at a maximum rate of 20 rounds per minute and its six 3-in. high-angle guns at a rate of 100 rounds per minute. Thus, it can deliver a broadside of 6½ tons of shell every minute. This compares with a rate of fire in the wartime "Fiji" class of exactly half these figures. Whatever aspect one considers, the "Tiger" is one of the most useful ships in the cold-war context.
  I turn now to the questions of the hon. Lady the Member for Lanark (Mrs. Hart). Possibly the only thing I share in common with her is that we are both members of the same trade union. The hon. Lady asked whether we make available to industry the products of our research establishments. We certainly do in such things, for instance, as research on corrosion, propellers, and the cavitation problems which arise from propellers. All these are made available to the shipbuilding industry.
  The hon. Lady asked whether we were looking into the question of accidents in relation to Polaris, and she related this to her own feeling—although she associated her hon. Friends with it. I do not know that there would be such a lot on her side—
  Mrs. Hart: Not accidents in relation to Polaris, but in relation more specifically to missile-carrying craft of one kind or another, in which accidents are particularly likely to occur. There was no specific reference to Polaris.
  Mr. Orr-Ewing: I am sorry if I misunderstood, but when the hon. Lady was referring to the accidents one of her hon. Friends was talking about Polaris.
  I commend to the hon. Lady the fact that of all features and types of deterrent, the Polaris, because it is a far safer weapon, and because it is a second-strike weapon, is the least likely to be fired as a result of an accident, a miscalculation or error in our radar network. The hon. Lady referred to automation and the way that there might be misinformation and a lower-rank accident. If the hon. Lady feels sincerely about that, she should be one of the pickets, not marching against Polaris or to Aldermaston,

  1917
  but marching for those who favour Polaris as a very safe form of deterrent.
  The right hon. Member for West Bromwich, a former Civil Lord, asked whether we ought not to have fewer cruisers—I have dealt with that—fewer minesweepers and more frigates. There is not a balance between minesweepers and frigates. Our modern frigate needs a ship's complement of 200 men, a coastal minesweeper 35 and an inshore minesweeper 12. That is why we use the minesweepers as cheap maids-of-all-work and we cannot put more frigates to sea simply by saving money on a few minesweepers, The right hon. Gentleman also urged us to undertake co-operative research with the Commonwealth. I can assure him we are doing our utmost to foster this.
  I was asked by several hon. Members what we were doing about the submarine divisions based in Halifax, Nova Scotia, for the Canadian Navy, and in Australia. We are responsible, and have always undertaken that responsibility, for antisubmarine training in the Commonwealth. We do our utmost to supply submarines for all the Commonwealth navies to train with.
  I understand that Canada is considering starting her own submarine division. If that happens, we will withdraw. Both Canada and Australia pay their share of the operational costs. Those costs are being reviewed, and it looks as if they will pay an increased share.
  This is an example of valuable cooperation within the Commonwealth, and something which is greatly appreciated by our friends. My hon. Friend the Member for Rye (Mr. Godman Irvine) asked whether we co-ordinated Commonwealth naval policy, whether there was an official committee. There is not an official committee. But on the highest plane, the chiefs of staff generally get together, often at the time of the Commonwealth Prime Ministers' Conference, when great strategic prob-
  1918
  lems are discussed. At a lower level the representatives of the naval staffs of all Commonwealth countries frequently visit us and, of course, chiefs of staff often come individually. They stay for some time, tour a lot of establishments, and have complete access to a number of our research departments and to departments of the Admiralty. Chiefs of staff generally meet the Board of Admiralty, and we take every opportunity to exchange ideas.
  But it is not possible to impose on independent Commonwealth countries a pattern for their navies. We can only advise them on what they can afford, perhaps tell them of the costs and other problems in running a particular type of service, an aircraft carrier, cruisers or submarines. We cannot impose our ideas on each of the fifteen Commonwealth navies, all at different stages of development. We give them all the advice we can and we regard this as a very important task.
  I have tried to answer most of the points raised in the debate. I cannot answer all of them, but I will write to hon. Members whose points I have been unable to deal with. I hope that the Committee will feel that the Navy is proceeding on the right lines and will pass this Vote.
  Mr. Emrys Hughes: I beg to move, That a number not exceeding 99,000 be employed for the said Service.
  Question put and negatived.
  Original Question put and agreed to.
  Resolved,
  That 100,000 Officers, Seamen and Juniors and Royal Marines, who are borne on the books of Her Majesty's Ships and at the Royal Marine establishments, and members of the Women's Royal Naval Service and Queen Alexandra's Royal Naval Nursing Service, be employed for the Sea Service, for the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1962.
  Resolution to be reported.
  Report to be received this day; Committee to sit again this day.

  DISABLED EX-SERVICE MAN'S CAR, NORTHAMPTON
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn. — [Colonel J. H. Harrison]
  12.1 a.m.
  Mr, R. T. Paget: I think that this is the first occasion during the sixteen years that I have been a Member of the House on which I have asked Mr. Speaker whether I might have the opportunity to raise something on the ordinary Adjournment of the House. I do so only—and I apologise to the hon. Lady the Parliamentary Secretary for keeping her up late for the purpose—because I feel that in the special circumstances of the case which has arisen I should not be doing my duty as a Member of the House if I were to allow the matter to go without protest.
  Years ago, when I was first elected, there was a Labour Government. At that time, I started in my constituency the practice of going there every week to be available for anyone who wished to see me. At that time, after the war, much rule was by regulation. In every complex and developed society, rule by regulation, rule by official—beaurocracy, if one likes to call it that—is a necessity of the system. It seemed to me then that one of the values of the single-Member constituency was that, under this form of government, every citizen had a means of taking his grievance over the head of the beaurocrat to the source from which power came.
  That made this form of government far more acceptable, and also it was in a great sense of value to the Ministries themselves, for they found that there was someone who could explain what they were doing. As the practice went on, more and more people coming to see me came because the various Ministries in Northampton had said to them, "If you do not think this is right, go and see your Member about it, and he will explain it." It was in those circumstances that they came. During those years, a mutual confidence was built up between the local officials in Northampton, the officials of the Ministries, and myself.
  When we ceased to be the Government, I continued my practice. It was a completely non-party service. I have never asked the party affiliation of any-
  1920
  one who come to see me. Indeed, one of the earliest to call upon me was the local agent of the Conservative Party. As a disabled ex-Service man he said that he was entitled to one of the surplus cars that were available so that he could more efficiently do his job of turning me out, and I was very delighted to be able to obtain him that car.
  In the course of one of my normal weekly sessions, a Mr. Len Piggott, a retired schoolmaster and a very distinguished citizen of Northampton, brought a Mr. Finney to see me. He is a disabled ex-Service man and, by reason of his disability, was no longer able to drive a car or an invalid carriage himself. He had reached the stage where he had to have a driver. He had proposed a driver. The Ministry of Pensions had seen the driver and approved him. The Ministry of Health had not seen the driver and declined to approve him. I made inquiries. I talked to the proposed driver, and I wrote to the hon. Lady the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health. She considered my representation, the decision of the Ministry of Health was changed, and the proposed driver was accepted. For that, I thank her and the Ministry. I think that it illustrates, perhaps, to some degree the sort of service which a Member can do not only to the constituent, but to the Ministry.
  Having done this, on 27th January last, which was a Friday, I was told that the car for my constituent had arrived at the garage in Northampton, and I was asked if I could do anything to help him get it. I rang up the Ministry and said, "I am told that this car has arrived. Is there anything holding it up? Can I be any help? Please let me know." On the Monday, when I arrived at the House, there was a message to telephone a civil servant at the Ministry. Of course, I will not mention his name. I did telephone, and he told me that I was mistaken in thinking that the car at the garage was for Mr. Finney. It was for somebody else.
  This official then said that Mr. Finney's car was, in fact, ready for delivery at Birmingham. It was a Morris Minor, at Morris's at Birmingham. I asked him how long it would take. "Well, the garage, which is our agent, has to test and service it," he said. "Two or three

  1921
  weeks." I said, "That seems rather a long time. I have not got my papers with me. Could you let me know the name of the garage? I probably know them. I will ring them up and see if they can do it a bit quicker." He replied, "Certainly. I have not got my papers, either. I will telephone you back."
  No conversation could have been more friendly. He did not telephone me back, and before leaving the House, after having waited some two hours, I telephoned again and was told that he had gone out. I telephoned again next morning, and was then told that he had consulted the Minister, or the hon. Lady—I am not certain which—and he was instructed that it was undesirable for a Member of Parliament to interfere in an individual case with regard to the delivery and that he was instructed not to give me the name of the garage. Frankly, I was very angry indeed, and I feel sure that if those instructions were given they were given under a misapprehension as to what had happened.
  As I say, I was very angry indeed. I put down a Question, which is a thing that I do not think I have done in relation to an individual case in ten years, because I believe in doing things quietly and by negotiation and working with Ministries instead of against them. In this Question I asked why I had been refused the name of the garage and I wrote to the Minister saying that in the sixteen years that I had been a Member of Parliament I had never been treated with such discourtesy. That, I think, is absolutely true.
  The Minister proceeded to answer my Question by saying that the garage had acted as his agents and that any shortcomings on their part should be investigated and rectified by him. I had not suggested that there had been the slightest shortcoming by the garage and, therefore, I regarded that answer as highly unsatisfactory.
  I then asked Mr. Speaker if I might raise this matter on the Adjournment, and when Mr. Speaker granted me the Adjournment to do so, I wrote to the Minister saying that as I considered that I had been the victim of a grave personal discourtesy I hoped he would be here to answer. Since then he has come to see me and has written to me
  1922
  explaining that he intended no personal discourtesy, and, of course, I accept that.
  To return to what has happened. not only do I think that this was extremely discourteous; I also think that it was extremely silly. Does anybody imagine that it took me any time at all to find out the name of the garage? I found out which garage it was; the people there were friends of mine. I have been in Northampton for a long time and there are not many people in Northampton who are not friends either of myself or of my father.
  The Derngate Motor Co. Ltd., I think, qualifies under both those categories. I wrote to the Derngate Motor Co. Ltd. and said what had happened, and asked if the matter could be expedited. Then I got what, perhaps, to my suspicious mind, was an explanation of the extraordinary way in which I had been treated. The Derngate Motor Co. wrote to me on 10th February, and I should like to emphasise this and the other dates. It was on 30th January—that is, eight days before—that I had been told by the Ministry that this car was ready and waiting in Birmingham, and that it would take the garage two to three weeks to deliver it. On 10th February—that is, ten days later—the motor company wrote to me and, after explaining the situation most courteously and in a friendly way, as it always does, said:
  "In an effort to assist you in this matter we have this morning telephoned Morris Motors to see if they can give us any pre-advice, but although they say Mr. Finney is on their list for a vehicle in the current contract it is not yet ready for delivery."
  So what I had been told ten days before that was untrue. That may be the explanation why I was refused the name of the garage.
  The Derngate Motor Co. Ltd., again most courteously, wrote to me on 22nd February to say that it had heard that the car was available, and collected it at once. The garage had serviced it at once, and tested it at once, and within two days, on 24th February, had delivered it to Mr. Finney.
  The result is that in two days they had done what the Ministry told me would take two and a half weeks. They are greatly to be congratulated. There has never been any suggestion that I have criticised them. They could not have been more helpful or more expeditious,

  1923
  and they are a most excellent firm. My complaint has been with the Ministry and about the way I have been treated, first, by being told what was untrue, and then by being absurdly refused the name of the garage when I asked for it.
  I again apologise, because I am sure it is not the hon. Lady's fault, that she should be kept here late at night to hear this. I repeat—this is the last thing I have to say—that I do not feel that I should be doing my duty to the office of a Member of Parliament if I allowed this sort of treatment to pass with protest through the machinery which is provided to us for this purpose. Therefore, for the first time since I became a Member of Parliament—because in all the years that I have been in Parliament I have never been treated like this and have never had this sort of trouble before—I have asked for the Adjournment to make this protest.
  12.17 a.m.
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health (Miss Edith Pitt): I would not for a moment quarrel with the way in which the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget) began this debate, when he stressed his belief that every citizen has the right to take his grievance over the heads of the bureaucrats to the source from which the power came. That I support wholeheartedly.
  I quite understand the system by which the hon. and learned Gentleman has, over the years, run his advice bureau—or "surgery", as some Members of Parliament call it—in order to make himself available to those of his constituents who wish to ventilate a grievance. Again, I understand and know that it is fairly common practice for Members of Parliament to make contact with local offices of Government Departments in order to investigate particular local complaints, but what has happened in this case is, I think, a little different.
  I have tried most carefully to check on the details, not always easy when some part of the affair took place over the telephone, but I am aware, as the hon. and learned Gentleman has said, that he phoned my Department towards the end of January to ask whether the car which he understood was already in Northampton was for the pensioner whom he wished to help. Inquiries had,
  1924
  of course, to be made, and it was subsequently explained to the hon. and learned Gentleman that the one already in Northampton was not allocated to his constituent, Mr. Finney—I think that I may mention his name as the hon. and learned Gentleman has done so. Then, I am informed, the hon. and learned Gentleman was advised that Mr. Finney's car was still on the assembly line at Cowley.
  It was also explained to the hon. and learned Gentleman that after it had been finished the car would have to be inspected and then delivered to the agent—that is, the Morris agent—who would conduct the usual Checking which is done on every car before it is finally delivered to the purchaser. Normally, all this process—it is not just the two or three days that the car might be in the hands of the Morris agent, as the hon. and learned Gentleman seems to assume—takes two to three weeks. I understand that the hon. and learned Gentleman then expressed himself very firmly, as he has already told the House tonight, and said that this was much too long a time and asked whether he might be given the name of the garage.
  The matter was referred to me and, after considering it, I eventually decided—and I take responsibility for this—that we could not give the name of the private garage which would be delivering this motor car to the hon. and learned Gentleman's constituent. I should explain that these are local garages. The 'people we choose are usually the nearest Morris agents to the pensioner who is to receive the car. In this respect, it is rather different from any contact that a Member of Parliament might have with the local office of a Government Department.
  The garage here was no part of a Government Department. I think that although most of us have occasion to contact local offices of Government Departments and, indeed, happily establish good local relations which enable us to get our constituency problems dealt with perhaps with less delay than by going through a central Department of that Ministry, it is also, in some cases, kinder to the local people who like to feel that the Member is not going over their heads.
  This case, I feel, was quite different in that it was a private garage and I do

  1925
  not think that any of us would wish to feed that a private garage or any private organisation was put under pressure when, in fact, it should be the Government Department concerned, with the responsibility, which should pursue the matter if there is any cause or question of delay.
  What followed next was that the hon. and learned Gentleman, as he says, wrote to my right hon. Friend and tabled a Question. My right hon. Friend, in replying to him, said:
  "I am very sorry that you did not have the reply on Monday which you were promised. I am also sorry it, in the first telephone conversation, the difficulty of disclosing the name of the garage concerned was not mentioned. I do think, however, that my Department ought not to give the name of a garage in such circumstances, even to one of my fellow Members. The garage are merely agents carrying out a specific contract with me and if they do not do it properly, or if there is some complaint about the terms of the arrangement I have made, then I ought to be answerable and to set it to rights. It would be unfair to the garage if any shortcomings were visited on them directly, or if they were subject to requests from third parties."
  My right hon. Friend then went on to say that either he or I would, of course, always give the promptest attention to any complaint brought to our notice.
  Mr. Paget: I am most grateful to the hon. Lady for giving way. She does not seem to understand that never at any point was there the remotest suggestion of a complaint about the garage. Equally, on the first conversation there was no kind of complaint about delay. All I said was that two or three weeks seemed rather a long time and that I would ring the garage and see if I could get it to be a bit quicker.
  Miss Pitt: I fully understand, having heard the hon. and learned Gentleman tonight. I think that there has been a misunderstanding in the past and, just as my right hon. Friend expressed his regret in the letter which I have just read to the House, so I would add mine that there should have been this misunderstanding. I very much regret such a misunderstanding in connection with any social matter where we are trying, to give service to a pensioner, or where an hon. Member is trying to give service to a constituent.
  1926
  Following on from that, even though there has been this misunderstanding, I think that the hon. and learned Member will agree with me that it would not be fair if individual private agents like these were to be under pressure. All hon. Members are equally interested to advance the cause of their constituents and certainly have the causes of their constituents at heart.
  I would like to interpolate here that we have so far had about 1,500 applications for the Mini-Minor cars and also about 300 or 400 requests for different degrees of priority. I am most anxious—and, again, I am sure that the hon. and learned Gentleman agrees with me—that it should not be said by anyone, perhaps not having the knowledge of the facts as he and I have, that someone could obtain his vehicle after intervention by a Member of Parliament which had ensured priority. I know that that was not the hon. and learned Member's intention, but that was at the back of my mind in making the decision.
  Mr. Paget: The hon. Lady must realise that there was no question about that. I did not raise the matter until the car was ready. It was only at that point that I thought that the personal contacts which we all have—"pressure" is not the right word—could help the matter on.
  Miss Pitt: My information is that the car was not then ready. In fact, it had not left the car works and, on the advice obtained in my Department, could not have been ready. We had to do a lot of telephoning at that stage and we found that the car was still on the assembly line and it was then that it appeared that the hon. and learned Member was to press this case. I would willingly have taken it up with him if he had sent me a note about it.
  However, as I have said, it was a matter of regret that the hon. and learned Member should have felt that at some stage he had been treated with discourtesy. That was certainly not the intention of my right hon. Friend, or myself, or my Department.
  The car in question, as the hon. and learned Member knows, was delivered on Monday of this week, 27th February. Having checked on it, I understand that on 10th February this vehicle was handed over to the War Office inspectorate which

  1927
  deals with all cars on our behalf in Cowley where it has resident inspectors. It was subsequently collected by the delivery agent and it arrived in Northampton on 23rd February, which accords with the hon. and learned Member's information.
  From then on it had the double check which was explained on the telephone. First, the garage itself gave it the normal check which is given to any car, whether for a war pensioner or anyone else—bolts and nuts being tightened up, and so on. There then followed the extra check by the technical officer of my Ministry which is given to make sure that the car is in order before it is handed over to a disabled pensioner either to drive himself or, as in this case, to be driven by a nominated driver on his behalf.
  The hon. and learned Member was kind enough to thank me for something which I did to ensure that in this case
  1928
  a nominated driver might, in fact, drive the vehicle. I should like to assure him that that is what I would wish to do—not to change a decision every time, but myself to be able to handle any matter where he felt it was not proceeding smoothly or there was undue delay or that even a wrong decision had been taken. I am only sorry that he did not make contact with me personally in the first place. I should still have had to take time to make inquiries, but I hope that he will never feel any hesitation whatever in coming to me direct if I can help in any case in the future.
  Mr. Paget: I am most grateful to the hon. Lady. She will, of course, appreciate that I did telephone to her and I then got a message as a result of which I telephoned the civil servant.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Adjourned accordingly at twenty-nine minutes past Twelve o'clock.

COMMONWEALTH RELATIONS
  Cyprus (Application for Commonwealth Membership)
  Cyprus (Application for Commonwealth Membership)
MINISTRY OF EDUCATION
  New Schools (Allowance per Place)
  New Schools (Allowance per Place)
  Denominational Schools (Grants)
  Denominational Schools (Grants)
  Teachers' Pensions
  Teachers' Pensions
  World Religions (Lessons)
  World Religions (Lessons)
  Welfare Assistants, Rossendale
  Welfare Assistants, Rossendale
  Teachers' Salaries
  Teachers' Salaries
HOME DEPARTMENT
  Theatres and Cinemas (Smoking)
  Theatres and Cinemas (Smoking)
  Prisoners, Parkhurst (Escape)
  Prisoners, Parkhurst (Escape)
  Escaped Prisoners
  Escaped Prisoners
  Metropolitan Police (Mobile Patrols)
  Metropolitan Police (Mobile Patrols)
  Escaped Wolf, Clapham (Recapture)
  Escaped Wolf, Clapham (Recapture)
  Captive Wild Animals
  Captive Wild Animals
  Immigration from Trinidad
  Immigration from Trinidad
  Rose Lane, Chadwell Heath (Crossing)
  Rose Lane, Chadwell Heath (Crossing)
SCIENTIFIC AND INDUSTRIAL RESEARCH
  Seismological Research
  Seismological Research
  Small Firms (Research Facilities)
  Small Firms (Research Facilities)
  EUROPEAN ECONOMIC COMMUNITY
  EUROPEAN ECONOMIC COMMUNITY
MINISTRY OF HEALTH
  Hospitals, Ilford and Barking
  Hospitals, Ilford and Barking
  Hearing Aids (Bone Conduction)
  Hearing Aids (Bone Conduction)
  Doctors (Pay and Allowances)
  Doctors (Pay and Allowances)
PENSIONS AND NATIONAL INSURANCE
  Personal Case
  Personal Case
TRADE AND COMMERCE
  Overseas Fairs
  Overseas Fairs
NATIONAL FINANCE
  Income Tax (Remissions)
  Income Tax (Remissions)

Preamble
The House met at three of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Carlisle
The Lord May—Took the Oath

LANDING FEES AT LONDON AIRPORT
3.4 p.m.
LORD BOOTHBY: My Lords, with some timidity, I rise to ask leave of the House to put the first Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether the Minister of Aviation still contemplates raising the landing fees at London Airport on April 1.]
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, my right honourable friend the Minister of Aviation informs me that he remains satisfied that the increases in landing fees, which apply to all State-owned aerodromes, should take effect on April 1.
LORD BOOTHBY: My Lords, I do not want to raise questions which were put in the debate and raised on the Motion of the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, but may I ask the noble Earl to bear in mind that the runways are, admittedly, inadequate at London Airport, and that overseas passengers are still received in shacks, fifteen years after the war? Does he think that the fact that the landing charges at London Airport are more than double those of almost any other international airport is likely to be beneficial to our export trade and to our credit generally?
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, as the noble Lord has himself said, these matters were fully gone into in a debate last Thursday in this House; and it seems that the very broad sort of answer which the question from the noble Lord would demand, would be much better given, and can only be given, in that sort of context.
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, would the noble Earl recall that in that debate the noble Lord who replied said that it was almost impossible to give an answer? Would he not now ask his right honourable friends to cause an investigation to be made, in order to establish whether the charges—the real charges not the nominal charges as estimated—at certain airports and at London Airport are in the ratio of 2½ times to one: namely, £280 at London Airport compared to £120 at Idlewild?
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, I should, of course, be very glad to bring what the noble Lord has just said to my right honourable friend's attention. But thinking that he might possibly bring up the figures which he brought up on Thursday, I have now had these particular figures looked into. The figures for London quoted by the noble Lord are not, in fact, accurate. The figure for Idlewild is about right. The figure for London Airport at the moment is £181, not £280, and after the increase will be about £241. But I should like to add that that figure for Idlewild does not include the cost of the provision of the passenger buildings, which the airlines themselves paid for there, and possibly additional revenue which the airport gets by way of charges or levies on fuel. Comparison is very difficult.
LORD OGMORE: My Lords, as in fact I gave the figure of £243 for London Airport, how does the noble Earl say that I gave the wrong figure? Secondly, as London Airport now, as it were, about breaks even, is it not a fact that what the Government are trying to do is to get the users at London Airport to pay for the loss at other State airports in this country?
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, I did not say that the noble Lord gave the wrong figure. The noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, gave the wrong figure. I think that the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, gave the figure of £243. It will be £241 16s., so he was only £1 4s. out. But I did not say he was wrong.
LORD BOOTHBY: But, my Lords, is it not a fact that all the international airlines are absolutely furious about this?

FUTURE OF BLUE STREAK
3.8 p.m.
LORD BOOTHBY: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they consider that the Blue Streak project has any further useful purpose to serve.]
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL AND MINISTER FOR SCIENCE (VISCOUNT HAILSHAM): My Lords, in the view of Her Majesty's Government the work already done on Blue Streak has created a valuable opportunity for the development of a heavy launcher for satellites and, as your Lordships know, Her Majesty's Government and the French Government recently presented at Strasbourg proposals for a cooperative effort to that end. The views of certain other European and Commonwealth countries are now awaited.
LORD BOOTHBY: My Lords, will the noble Viscount bear in mind what we have already lost, a clean £100 million, on this project that the possibilities of space may be unlimited but they are also extremely expensive, and that we do not want to land ourselves or our Allies into a further comparable loss?
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, I will indeed bear in mind all that the noble Lord has said. I will also bear in mind that a great number of people think that there are distinct commercial possibilities in the development of a satellite communications system, and there certainly are considerable advantages in space research.
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, may I ask the noble Viscount the Leader of the House whether he is aware that the noble Viscount, Lord Elibank, is back in his seat and I would apologise to him because 'I used his name last night in describing a campaign that some of us would lodge against the Government? My Lords, would the noble Viscount not agree that if some of the money that has been used in this particular project had been put to the external services of the B.B.C. the understanding overseas of this country's case would be much better?
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, I do not think I need add anything to what I said in debate some months ago about the military possibilities of Blue Streak. I think that if 'we are going to develop either new civil projects or new military weapons, there will be a good number of projects Which will succeed, I hope, and a number Which will not.
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, would the noble Viscount bear in mind that although, thanks to the folly of the Government, we have a weapon that is unsuitable for defence, none the less it is possible to gain something of great benefit to this country if they will persevere in the face of those Who perhaps do not have the imagination to appreciate the enormous potential benefits to this country that will come from taking part in a co-operative space programme?
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, I would accept all that, except the part about folly.
LORD BOOTHBY: My Lords., arising out of what the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, said, I would ask my noble friend to bear very closely in mind that, so far as we know, there is nobody in space: nobody exists in space. That is why I think the noble Lord's suggestion about broadcasting might 'have more practical possibilities.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, I was under the impression that we were all in space.

DISPOSAL OF GLANLLYN ESTATE
LORD OGMORE: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what are the reasons for the proposed sale of the Glanllyn Estate and what steps they are taking to ensure that this historic property is not split up as a result of the sale, to the detriment of good agricultural practice and of the beauty of the countryside.]
THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD (EARL WALDEGRAVE): My Lords, the

227
noble Lord is no doubt aware that it is not the policy of the Government to retain and manage agricultural land after necessary improvements have been completed unless the land is required for departmental purposes such as research or afforestation. The Welsh Agricultural Land Sub-Commission have made such substantial progress with the rehabilitation of Glanllyn that there is no longer justification for its retention in Government ownership. It cannot be accepted that a division of the estate would necessarily be prejudicial to good agricultural practice or would lead to spoliation of the beauty of Glanllyn. If, however, a sale to a consortium of tenants is concluded the tenants will have an opportunity to maintain the estate under co-ordinated management.
LORD OGMORE: My Lords, is it not a fact that the best agricultural advice in North Wales is that it would be highly prejudicial to agriculture if the estate were split up? Secondly, what are the chances of any such consortium being achieved? If no such consortium is achieved, will the Government consider handing this over to the University of Wales?
EARL WALDEGRAVE: My Lords, the noble Lord has asked three supplementary questions. I think he will agree that the best agricultural advice obtainable is that taken by the Government. With regard to the chances of this offer being accepted by the consortium, as we very much hope it will be, I cannot, of course, make any suggestion as to what prospects there are of success, but we are very hopeful that it will be accepted. As to the third point, the hypothetical question as to what happens if we cannot conclude negotiations with the consortium, my right honourable friend must be free to decide in the circumstances that then arise. But he is consulting all interested parties, as he said in the full statement he made in another place in answer to a Question on February 9.
LORD WILLIAMS OF BARNBURGH: My Lords, may I be permitted to ask the noble Earl whether his right honourable friend the Minister of Agriculture has produced one single argument,
228
either economic or social, in favour of the drastic step he now proposes to take? Will the noble Earl tell us why, in the Minister's reply to a Question in another place, he literally said to the tenant farmers, "You must either buy out or get out of your farms"? Is that the general approach of the Government to agricultural problems?
EARL WALDEGRAVE: May I answer the second part of the noble Lord's question first? The Minister certainly has not said, "You must either buy out or get out." The noble Lord is surely aware that what my right honourable friend has done is to come to a decision that it is not right for the Government to continue to own this property, and he has therefore made the first offer for the disposal of this estate to a consortium of tenants. I would remind the noble Lord that, in the early days, before this estate was taken over, that is in fact what the tenants wanted to do: to buy the estate themselves.
LORD WILLIAMS OF BARNBURGH: My Lords, is the noble Earl not aware that in the right honourable gentleman's statement in another place he gave the tenant farmers only six months' notice? Unless they, within that six months' period, have purchased their farms as a collective agency or individually, then the Minister reserves the right to sell the land to the person from whom he may get an offer? Is that not simply a matter of, "Either buy out or get out"? And does the noble Earl think, after the wonderful improvements that have taken place since the land was taken over, that this confusion and uncertainty ought to have been produced in the minds of the tenant farmers and of their families?
EARL WALDEGRAVE: The noble Lord would surely know from his experience as Minister of Agriculture in years gone by that a tenant is fully protected under the Landlord and Tenant Acts. If my right honourable friend does not sell this estate to a consortium of tenants, he can certainly not terminate the occupiers' tenancies, and would not wish to do so.
LORD DALTON: My Lords, does this not look like a petty and doctrinaire case of denationalisation for its own sake? May I ask the noble Earl

229
whether he is aware that, when this estate was taken over in part-payment of death duties in 1947, it was taken over in a most neglected and dilapidated condition, so that it was inevitable that large sums of money would have had to be spent on repairing old buildings and building new ones, which should, of course, have been done by the previous owners, but which was not?
EARL WALDEGRAVE: My Lords, I admit that this estate was in a neglected and dilapidated condition, but it is not any longer in that condition, as the Welsh Land Sub-Commission—all credit to them—have done extremely good work in substantially rehabilitating the estate.
LORD SILKIN: My Lords, may I put my noble friend's question in another form? The noble Earl, in answer to the original Question, said that this was the Government's policy. What I should like to know is: is this policy decided upon the merits of this individual case, or is it their policy generally for the disposal of the farms which are in their possession and which they receive by way of death duties?
EARL WALDEGRAVE: It is a matter of general policy. As I think is well known, it is not the policy of this Government—unless, as I said in my original Answer, land is required for departmental purposes, such as research or forestry—to retain and manage agricultural land.
LORD SILKIN: My Lords, would the noble Earl answer the other part of the question—namely, is this sale taking place on the merits? Have the merits been gone into, and is it a worthwhile sale?
EARL WALDEGRAVE: I am not sure that I entirely follow what the noble Lord means by "the merits". This estate is in such a condition now that it is a perfectly viable estate, and the great work of rehabilitation has substantially been completed. My right honourable friend has gone to great pains to make this offer to the tenants and to say to them, "If you come together as a consortium and want to keep this estate together, I will make the first offer to you". But if that consortium (which we very much hope will be able to come together and purchase the estate as a
230
whole) cannot be achieved, then my right honourable friend must reserve his position as to what he would do, and I cannot go further than the statement that he made in another place.
LORD OGMORE: My Lords, the noble Earl has not mentioned Lake Bala, which is a great beauty spot. Does he propose to split up Lake Bala as well, or is that to be sold in one piece?
EARL WALDEGRAVE: I think Lake Bala lies within the Snowdonia National Park. The Government are fully aware of its beauty and of the importance of preserving it from any undesirable exploitation. It is for this reason that the Government are considering special arrangements for its disposal in the light of views expressed by interested bodies. I should like to remind noble Lords that we have a very representative body known as the Glanllyn Advisory Committee, of which Sir David Hughes Parry is chairman, and their advice is being taken in this matter, as indeed will be the advice of all interested parties—the Merionethshire County Council and anybody else. And, of course, the views expressed by your Lordships in this House will be taken into consideration.

POST OFFICE BILL
Brought from the Commons; read 1a, and to be printed.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
3.17 p.m.
EARL ST. ALDWYN: My Lords, it may be for the convenience of the House if I take these two Business-of-the-House Motions together. It has been agreed through the usual channels that the debate on Central Africa should take place on Tuesday and Wednesday of next week, and that the Defence debate should take place on Tuesday and Wednesday of the following week. For this purpose, it is necessary to advance the Motions standing in the name of the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, and my noble friend Lord Carrington. On behalf of my noble friend Lord Hailsham, I beg to move.
Moved, That leave be given to advance the motion standing in the name of the Earl of Listowel from Wednesday next to Tuesday next;
That leave be given to advance the motion standing in the name of the Lord Carrington from Wednesday the 15th instant to Tuesday the 14th instant.—(Earl St. Aldwyn.)
LORD SILKIN: My Lords, is it proposed to change the time of meeting on either Tuesday or Wednesday? If we are to finish at 7 o'clock—and many of us have made engagements on the assumption that we shall finish at 7—it might be necessary, in view of the large number of speakers, that we should meet earlier, as we did one day this week—yesterday, I think it was. Will the noble Earl consider that?
EARL ST. ALDWYN: I will certainly consider it when we see the final list of speakers. The House met early yesterday because of the Introductions, in order not to delay the discussion of the House. That was the reason for that.
On Question, Motions agreed to.

FLOOD PREVENTION (SCOTLAND) BILL
3.19 p.m.
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Craigton.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[The LORD MERTHYR in the Chair.]
Clause 1 agreed to.
Clause 2 [Powers of local authorities]:
THE MINISTER OF STATE, SCOTTISH OFFICE (LORD CRAIGTON): This Amendment meets an undertaking given in the other place. Under Clause 2, subsection (1) (a) and (1) (b), the local authority can carry out maintenance and management of works which are not grant-aided. Works of a more major character require a scheme, are grant aided, and are provided for in paragraphs (c) to (f) of subsection (1). There are bound to be borderline cases, and the description "major", which we wish deleted, might deter a local authority from proceeding with a scheme at all, because they could not themselves afford it, and they might not think the work was sufficiently major to qualify for grant aid. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 2. line 3, leave out ("major").—(Lord Craigton.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD STONHAM LORD STONHAM moved, in subsection (1) (e), after "watercourse" to insert "or reservoir". The noble Lord said: I beg to move the second Amendment, standing, in the names of my noble friend Lord Wise and myself. This Amendment, if accepted, would allow a local authority to construct an intermediate or hillside reservoir for the purpose of holding back, and to some extent controlling, the flow of a river in spate. It would have the dual purpose of a delaying action and of providing a useful reserve of water against the time when it was less plentiful. The noble Lord, Lord Craigton, in the letter which he was kind enough to send to me after the Second Reading debate, pointed out that subsection (1) (e) of Clause 2 does, in fact, permit the erection of a barrier, embankment or other works as a defence against flooding, and that if the construction of a reservoir were necessary for such defence, it would be possible under the Bill as it now stands.
We are pressing this Amendment because it still seems to be necessary to insert the word "reservoir", first of all to underline this possibility which, apparently, had not occurred to the Government when the Bill was drafted. Another reason why it should be accepted, in my view, is that normally reservoirs are constructed with the sole object of storing water, and although other powers are certainly available to local authorities for that purpose, it is usually a very complicated legislative business, especially when one authority wishes to construct a storage reservoir in the area of another.
Under this Bill the procedure is very much simpler—in fact, the Bill invites a local authority to co-operate with others in order that works may be constructed in the area of another local authority. In our view, it is quite likely that (shall we say?) a valley or lowlands local authority might find it a most attractive proposition to seek agreement with an uplands authority to the construction of a hillside reservoir in their area which would minimise the risk of flooding and serve as a useful reservoir of water. We regard it as a substantial contribution

233
in some circumstances to the reduction of the risk of flooding, and we hope that the Government will accept our Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 8, at end insert "or reservoir".—(Lord Stonham.)
LORD WISE: I should like to support the Amendment, and I do so because of personal, practical experience. Some years ago I happened to own a farm in the Midlands, next to which was a very large reservoir. Originally the old monks had had a pool at their priory, and this was extended to some fifteen acres. This reservoir served a very useful purpose, because part of my land was low-lying land, by a river, and was likely at times to flood. The water was held up in this particular reservoir, with the result that the land in the valley did not flood nearly as much as it would have done had the waters in the uplands always been flowing down to the river and the canal there. The reservoir also served another purpose, in that in a very dry season the water was let out from the reservoir and into the canal, making it possible for the canal to be used. So I think it a very good idea to insert the word "reservoir" into this particular clause, and I hope that the Minister will agree.
LORD CRAIGTON: I am grateful to the two noble Lords for the way in which they have explained this Amendment. I am in sympathy with its intention. As the noble Lord, Lord Stonham, says, the Bill as it stands gives a local authority power to carry out the sort of work which is envisaged, or the sort of work which the noble Lord, Lord Stonham, referred to in his speech—even the local authority right up the hill, where a reservoir or some water catchment would help them to get together in a scheme which would be grant-aided. What I had to satisfy myself about, in asking the noble Lord to withdraw his Amendment, was why one could not add the word "reservoir". I felt that I should not leave the impression that it did no harm to leave it in the Bill; there must be a concrete reason why it should not be added.
I am advised that the term "reservoir" is usually associated with other existing statutory powers for collecting and stor-
234
ing water. If we accept this Amendment—in the knowledge, of course, that the Bill already does what is wanted—although my right honourable friend has the final decision in approving any scheme, a local authority might consider that grant-aided flood prevention work should also be used to provide grant-aided water supply; and that is not the purpose of this Bill. This Bill is for the prevention of flooding and not for the purpose of the storage of water, for which powers exist under other Acts. I hope, therefore, that the noble Lord will withdraw this Amendment, on the firm assurance that the Bill does all the things he would wish it to do.
LORD STONHAM: I am most grateful for the noble Lord's explanation, but I am afraid that my noble friend and I cannot agree to withdraw the Amendment. Whilst it is gratifying to know that the noble Lord did look to see if there was a reason of substance why this word should not be gratuitously added. I am afraid that the reason given does not seem very substantial. What it amounts to is this: that the Government do not want to run the risk of a local authority getting grant-aid for a reservoir under the guise of preventing floods. That is virtually what the reason for the rejection of the Amendment amounts to. It does not seem a convincing reason at all, because the local authority, and those who will co-operate with them in agreeing the scheme, have to submit that scheme to the Secretary of State, and the prime reason for the acceptance of any scheme will be that it 'will make a contribution to flood prevention. The only reservoir which could be approved in the scheme is one which could be shown directly to minimise the risk of floods by helping to hold back the water. My noble friend Lord Wise gave an actual example of exactly how that would work. It is a well-known factor in preventing floods, and it is, in my view, one of the most substantial ways (I will deal in a later Amendment with the other substantial way) of contributing to flood prevention.
It seems to me that this Bill places almost complete reliance upon the widening and deepening of watercourses. In most cases, that would merely be a more speedy transference of surface water from one area to another, and it is precisely the people down below in the valley, who will be getting the water

235
more quickly, who will suffer from floods. That is why we feel that this is an important Amendment and that the Government should accept it. I am afraid that we cannot withdraw it.
LORD CRAIGTON: I am sorry that I cannot help the noble Lord. I know that my right honourable friend has all the powers, but we feel that it would be misleading Ito the local authority, and wrong, to add the words in the Amendment.
LORD SILKIN: I appreciate that the noble Lord wants to be helpful, and I understand that the actual terms of the Amendment might be misleading, as holding out false expectations to local authorities that they may get subsidy for something for which this Bill never intended them to get it. Bat is this not just a matter of the form of words? Could not my noble friend's point be met by making it clear in the Bill that a reservoir for the purpose of flood prevention would conic within its terms, whereas a reservoir for the purpose of the storage of water would not? I should have thought that it was not beyond the wit of Whitehall to find a form of words to meet exactly what is intended and no more.
LORD CRAIGTON: The noble Lord, with his great skill, will appreciate our difficulty. At the moment, the Bill refers to "any new work" which may be necessary, but directly one says "reservoir", then we have something else, shall we say, a wall, which may be built right up a hill, and the matter is in doubt; the wider the terms and the less getting down to details, the better the Bill. That is the trouble. The words "any new work" mean what they say—any new work for securing the end which the Bill has in mind.
LORD SILKIN: The noble Lord referred to my skill, for which I thank him very much. Perhaps if he and I got together, we might be able to devise a form of words which might meet my noble friend's point.
LORD CRAIGTON: Indeed, but it might be too long. We cannot clutter up the Bill.
LORD STONHAM: I am grateful for the help of my noble friend Lord Silkin.
236
I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Craigton, will meet us to this extent: that he will avail himself of my noble friend's skill, and also of the great skill which I am sure is available in his own Department to devise a form of words to meet this point without "cluttering up" the Bill. In any case, it is only a small Bill of 16 pages and it cannot hurt the Bill if a dozen or two dozen words are added. If the noble Lord will agree to look at this Amendment again, I am willing to withdraw it.
LORD CRAIGTON: I am grateful to the noble Lord. I will certainly look at this again, in the spirit in which we have discussed it, but the noble Lord should not take that as an undertaking to put something in the Bill.
LORD SALTOUN: I should like to say to my noble friend that I heartily support the Bill and its purpose. May I ask whether the words "any new work" do not mean any new work of any kind?
LORD CRAIGTON: Clause 2 (1) (a) (ii) says that the operations would be
"any barrier, embankment or other work for defence against flooding;"
LORD STONHAM: I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
3.34 p.m.
LORD STONHAM
"() the planting of trees."
LORD STONHAM: Obviously, on the ground of the owners of the respective land. That does not constitute a difficulty, because the Bill explicitly states that a local authority who wish to sponsor a scheme can combine with other local authorities or with private owners. So there is no difficulty whatsoever about that. Surely this is an example of the mutual helpfulness and cooperation for which Scotland is famous. I am grateful to the noble Lord for giving me an opportunity of pointing that out. There are cases where this would obviously be desirable, and it is no answer to say that the local authorities are not the proper people to carry out the work of planting trees.
THE EARL OF BUCKINGHAMSHIRE: May I interrupt the noble Lord? I am bound to disagree with him, because very few local authorities know the real way to plant trees. It takes an expert to do it.
LORD STONHAM: I am grateful to the noble Earl for confirming another point which I was about to make. If the noble Earl had heard me aright, he would have heard me say that it was no answer to say that local authorities are not the proper people to plant trees—because in fact the Bill permits a local authority to enlist the co-operation of other authorities, such as the Forestry Commissioners, the local landowners. I am glad that the noble Earl is with me on this aspect. There must be cases where such a policy would be desirable, but it cannot be carried out unless this Amendment is accepted.
Although I have not had the experience of other noble Lords in this matter, I have had sufficient experience to know that it is no good getting rid of surplus water by widening, deepening and strengthening watercourses. That merely makes the water flow more quickly. But we must think of where it has to flow to and the consequences of the overflowing of a river in spate. In my experience, this kind of work usually means the transferring of flood water more quickly from one area to another. If the Government are really serious about wanting to prevent, or minimise, flooding in Scotland, they must, in my view, accept this suggestion, because the only way of preventing flooding is to slow the flow of water, to find a means of holding it back. And the acceptance of this Amendment would provide that means. The Bill give local authorities the right to cut down trees: it should also give them the right to plant trees, within the meaning of this Bill. I cannot see why the Government should find any difficulty in accepting this Amendment. Surely it would constitute an improvement and help to prevent flooding in Scotland.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 14, at end insert—
("() the planting of trees.").—(Lord Stonham.)
LORD SALTOUN: I think the noble Lord has asked for support from this

239
side of the Committee, and I will give him an argument which I do not think he used in his speech and which is probably the most important result of planting trees that could be mentioned; that is, that the planting of trees is a great preventive of denudation. Anybody who sees the effect of the cutting of trees and the denudation that follows must feel that that is probably the most important point. My difficulty, however, is that I fail to construe the Amendment as drafted and its insertion in the Bill. Clause 2 (1) (f) refers to
"the reinstatement of land damaged by operations carried out by virtue of this Act, and the execution of works for the protection of land against damage likely to be caused by such operations."
The noble Lord moves to add, "the planting of trees". What does that mean?
LORD STONHAM: If I may answer the noble Lord, I would say that the Amendment would constitute a new paragraph; it would not be paragraph (f) but a new paragraph (g).
LORD SALTOUN: I thank the noble Lord. I am answered.
LORD CRAIGTON: As the noble Lord knows, planting trees as a barrier for defence against flooding can be carried out under this Bill. When it came to more extensive planting of trees it would be for the Secretary of State to decide whether the planting came within the definition of trees planted as a barrier for defence against flooding. If we accepted this Amendment, what would happen would be that the whole scope of the Bill would be very much widened. This is a little Bill for defence against flooding, for protective works, and if we widen the scope to include substantial afforestation we should have to widen the scope under other headings as well. In the other place this sort of suggestion was resisted by the Government. I do not say that the planting of a belt of trees or afforestation might not be necessary, but the noble Lord may not know that, if it is, it can already be done by a local authority on their land and can be grant aided under existing legislation.
LORD STONHAM: May I interrupt the noble Lord? The difficulty there is that it is all land of the local authority. As I tried to make clear, in most cases
240
a local authority will initiate a scheme and want to plant trees on somebody else's land.
LORD CRAIGTON: I agree with the noble Lord. The local authority, to do this, have to acquire the land or cooperate with another local authority. But the noble Lord will realise that they can acquire land; if they have the powers to do it, they can plant, if necessary, and they can manage; and they can obtain grants under Section 3 (3) (d) of the Forestry Act, 1919, with the approval of the Forestry Commission. So, to that extent, existing legislation goes over the line between conservation and protective works. I feel that I must, on behalf of my right honourable friend, ask the noble Lord to withdraw this Amendment, partly on the ground that the local authorities have the powers under other Acts, and also because it would be wrong to widen the Bill to the extent that he envisages. I am sorry to turn him down, but I hope that for those reasons he will be able to withdraw the Amendment.
LORD STONHAM: I am sorry to have had that reply My noble friend and I do not feel that we can withdraw the Amendment. We thought that what the Government had in mind was some serious attempt to minimise flooding in Scotland, and we are disappointed. The noble Lord may recall that on Second Reading I described this Bill, perhaps a little unkindly, as "a fiddling little Bill". He has now confirmed my view of it, except that he has omitted the word "fiddling". I agree that if the Amendment were accepted it would widen the whole scope of the Bill: in other words, it would make it a real Bill to help prevent flooding in Scotland. I can only express my disappointment that the Amendment has not been accepted. But at least Scots will be aware that it is only a little Bill; it can prevent only a little flood, a small puddle. I express the hope that the opportunity will be given to us to have a real Bill before us one of these days which will help to prevent flooding in Scotland.
On Question, Amendment negatived.
Clause 2, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 3 agreed to.
Clause 4 [Flood Prevention Schemes]:
LORD CRAIGTON: This is a clarifying Amendment. Clause 2 rightly

241
excludes work on a sewer or water main (for which there are often separate authorities) from the operations that a local authority may carry out as part of a scheme. But Clause 12 envisages arrangements being made by a local authority for the sewerage or water authority to carry out any necessary work such as diversion of a sewer or something like that. Under Clauses 12 and 13 the local authority may make contributions to the sewerage or water authority and claim Exchequer grant on them. But one has to read as far as Clause 12 to learn the extent to which sewerage and water can come within the scope of the Bill. This earlier reference is a signpost—and no more than a signpost—tto Clause 12 and makes the Bill much easier, to read. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 4, line 7. at end insert ("and, where in connection with any such operations it is intended that operations for the diversion of a sewer or a watermain shall be carried out by a sewerage or water authority (whether a different authority from the local authority or not),the scheme shall also specify those last-mentioned operations").—(Lord Craigton.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause. 4, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 5 to 11 agreed to.
Clause 12 [Contributions to and by local authorities]:
LORD CRAIGTON: This Amendment strengthens the local authority's entitlement to grant aid. As I explained on the previous Amendment, a local authority may make grant-aided contributions to a sewerage or water authority for work done as part of a flood prevention scheme. There will probably be cases where the sewerage or water authority is a department of the same parent authority as that doing the flood prevention work. I am advised that in such cases, unless this subsection is added, it might be held that any payment, say from a local authority's flood prevention scheme account to its sewerage account, would not be "a contribution" for the purpose of the Bill. So the cross entry would not rank for grant. This Amendment removes any doubt on that score. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 8, line 17, at end insert—
("(2) Where a local authority are a sewerage or water authority and as such incur expenditure in carrying out, or paying compen-
242
sation in respect of, any operations such as are specified in paragraph (b) of the foregoing subsection in relation to a flood prevention scheme made by themselves, they may appropriate to the accounts of their sewerage, or, as the case may he, water, undertaking such sum as they think fit in respect of that expenditure; and any such appropriation shall he deemed to he a contribution tinder this section towards the expenditure.").—(Lord Craigton.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 12, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 13 and 14 agreed to.
Clause 15 [Interpretation]:
LORD CRAIGTON: This Amendment corrects an omission. In every Act requiring the service of notices it is a common form provision to define what action is required to prove service of the notice. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 10, line 18, at end insert—
("(6) For the purposes of this Act the service of any notice, scheme or other document on any person, body or association may (without prejudice to any other method of service) he effected by sending it to him, or, in the case of a body or association, to the secretary or other similar officer thereof, by post at his usual or last known residence, place of business or office.").—(Lord Craigton.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 15, as amended, agreed to.
Remaining clause and Schedules agreed to.
House resumed.

PUBLIC HEALTH BILL [H.L.]
3.50 p.m.
Order of the Day for the Third Reading read.
THE MINISTER OF STATE FOR WELSH AFFAIRS (LORD BRECON): My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a third time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 3a. —(Lord Brecon.)
LORD SILKIN: My Lords. I think it is as well that a word should be said before we part with this Bill in this House. It has had rather a tempestuous passage in here—unusually so, because the Government were defeated on one Amendment and ran away on another. I think the Bill is all the better for those Amendments. I should like to thank the noble Lord for the courtesy with which

243
he conducted the proceedings of the Bill on Second Reading and in Committee, and for the concessions that were made.
There is one point I wish to make, and that is that the main purpose of this Bill was to incorporate in a public measure a number of clauses which had appeared in Private Bill legislation. Some of us were not particularly enamoured of the clauses it was intended to incorporate in a public measure, but we were faced with the difficulty that they had already appeared in a large number of Private Bills and had been approved, and it was rather late in the day to object to their appearing in a Public Bill when the need for that bad been so clearly demonstrated. I am making no objection to that. I think it is a fair point to make, and it may well be that, having regard to the facts, many of these clauses had appeared in so many Private Acts that the time had come when local authorities who wanted similar powers should not be put to the trouble of having to incorporate them in their own private legislation. But it brings up the point that we ought to be much more careful as to what we approve in private legislation.
It is a fact that a clause which is approved once constitutes a precedent for a similar clause in another Bill, and I am afraid that, whatever may be the theory, in practice this House is helpless. We are not in a position to go through every Private Bill and look through every clause to see whether it creates a precedent we do not like—that is the duty, of course, of the Private Bill Committees, and I am sure they do their best—but it indicates the need for even greater vigilance to see that these clauses do not constitute a precedent which this House may not wish to follow in public legislation. Subject to that, I welcome the Bill. I think it is a great improvement in our legislation, and I hope that it will have a successful passage in another place.
3.54 p.m.
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, I rise to ask for clarification on one point. The noble Lord will remember that I expressed a fear that under one clause of this Bill public authorities might be able to take away rights from the public by giving to a club or persons exclusive use of recreation facilities. The noble Lord
244
has kindly written to me on this matter. I asked him whether, when he moved his Amendment, he could use the word "facility" instead of "space", as "space" was the word in the noble Lord's Amendment. Will the noble Lord, for the Record and, I think, for outside, clarify the point that when he talks of "space" the Government mean that the general facilities within recreation grounds shall be reasonably available to the public?
LORD BURDEN: My Lords, I should like to be associated with what my noble friend Lord Silkin has said in regard to the action of the Government in helping to make this Bill, as we think, a better Bill than when it was introduced, and our appreciation to the noble Lord, Lord Brecon, who handled this measure in a way which was most helpful to us all. I should like to add one point to what my noble friend Lord Silkin has said in regard to Private Bill legislation. While, of course, I agree that we ought to be careful of anything in a Private Bill which may be held to establish a precedent, I think my noble friend will be as fully aware as I am that progressive authorities have often embodied in Private Bills which receive the approval of both Houses of Parliament provisions which might be called experiments in social legislation—a try out of various schemes.
In the history of social legislation, I think the part played by Private Bills promoted by progressive authorities has been a great one, and frequently what has been put forward on behalf of a progressive local authority ultimately becomes the general law of the land. I am sure my noble friend will know that as well as I do. Subject to that, I feel that we ought always to be very careful where we are going with Private Bill legislation. May I conclude by saying that we feel that this Bill leaves this House a better one than when it was introduced? For that we are grateful to the Department and to the Minister, the noble Lord, Lord Brecon, for the way in which he has handled the Bill.
3.58 p.m.
LORD BRECON: My Lords, I should like to thank noble Lords for the kind words they have said, but I do not think they require a long speech from me at this moment. I would thank all noble

245
Lords on both sides of the House who have contributed to the discussions in the earlier stages of the Bill. I greatly appreciate the care and time which noble Lords must have devoted to the examination of the Bill which, as I freely confess, is not an easy one to understand without a great deal of study.
A number of Amendments were proposed, and to all of them I gave careful thought. Where I felt unable to accept a suggested Amendment, I tried to explain the reasons either in debate or by letter. But I was more than happy to agree to a number of the proposals, and there is no doubt—and I agree with all noble Lords who have said it—that the Bill has been considerably improved by the consideration which your Lordships have given to it. The noble Lords, Lord Silkin and Lord Conesford made notable contributions which I should like to acknowledge, though I do so without forgetting the other Members of your Lordships' House who made valuable and constructive suggestions.
The clauses in the Bill which are completely new and unprecedented are those in Part II dealing with building regulations, and those in Part V on trade effluents. These have generally commended themselves to your Lordships, and their main principles were not, I think, questioned at any stage. There are, however, one or two points still to be tidied up in connection with Part V. I promised to consider again Lord Hawke's case for requiring local authorities explicitly to take account of the value of by-products in fixing charges for receiving and disposing of effluents. I can assure him that the point has not been forgotten. There was also Lord Jessel's request that some minimum period should be prescribed between the time when a local authority fixes a charge or condition and the time when they can review and vary it. The House will recall that there were some discussions going on between interested bodies on this point, and it was desirable to know the outcome before deciding whether anything should go into the Bill. I fear this means that the point must, like that raised by the noble Lord, Lord Hawke, wait for consideration in another place.
I said when explaining this Bill on Second Reading that it did not appear to be a very exciting measure. In some
246
respects I was mistaken, because some of the clauses, even though well precedented in local Acts, nevertheless attracted a good deal of comment. I have particularly in mind those dealing with the management of parks and open spaces, which aroused considerable discussion and interest among your Lordships. I promised on Report stage to give further thought to a point on what is now Clause 51. That clause permits local authorities to allow sports clubs to use pitches in parks. The noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, suggested that there was still a possibility that these powers might be exercised in a way detrimental to the interests of the general public. I have, as the noble Lord has said, since written to him about this, and I hope that he will accept, as covering the point he has in mind, the Amendment I moved at the Report stage and which now forms the last four lines of subsection (3) of Clause 51. We have been talking about space earlier this afternoon. This is a very small part of the space which includes everything that is in the park; that means, the ground and the other facilities that you and I have in mind. For the rest, I am glad to think that your Lordships have been able to accept with equanimity a Bill which deals with such diverse matters as dangerous buildings and infectious diseases, street lights and litter bins, by-laws for barbers and bylaws for pleasure boats, pigeons and canal boats, drains and dodgems.
On Question, Bill read 3a.
An Amendment (privilege) made.
Bill passed, and sent to the Commons.

SUICIDE BILL [H.L.]
4.4 p.m.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT KILMOUR): My Lords, since he came to the Home Office my right honourable friend the Home Secretary has been much concerned to bring our criminal law up to date, by modernising, where necessary, those provisions which are still in substance valid, and by removing those which are no longer in keeping with the needs and the outlook of the present day. This Bill is part of

247
that programme of reform. The purpose of the Bill is to provide that it shall no longer be a criminal act, subject to the machinery and sanctions of the criminal law, to commit suicide or to attempt to commit suicide.
I do not think I need to say much about the history of the offence, except, perhaps, to point out the great variations there have been at different periods of history and in different parts of the world in the attitude to those who have taken their own lives. Greek and Roman philosophers regarded suicide as an act which was often praiseworthy. So, in recent times, have the Japanese. Yet I am sure I have no need to remind your Lordships that in this country, only 150 years ago, suicides were buried at crossroads by night with a stake through their hearts, in such horror was their action regarded.
The motives of those who commit suicide, or who attempt to commit suicide, are various. There has been a great deal of research on this subject, with the general conclusions of which I do not need to trouble your Lordships, except to bring out one or two points which I think are relevant to the Bill we are discussing today. However we regard suicide itself, whether as a sin or not, most of us would in general have at least grudging sympathy for the suicide's motives. We may congratulate ourselves that in similar circumstances we should not have done likewise and think that the suicide has taken a coward's way out. But the action of a Captain Oates who gave up his life in the hope that it would save his comrades commands the respect and admiration of us all.
Wherever and however we may place the motives of those who take their own lives in the scale of human values, I think we can agree that they have little or nothing in common with what we should nowadays generally characterise as criminal intent. It is for this reason that it has for some time been widely felt to be inappropriate that we should continue to regard this act as a criminal offence. The suicide has put himself beyond the reach of punishment; the existence of the offence in our criminal law has not proved an effective deterrent to others, as over 5,000 suicides a year
248
are known to the police in England and Wales. And the continuing criminal character of the conduct does nothing but add to the distress and pain of the relatives and friends of the deceased. For these reasons my right honourable friend has concluded that the criminal offence of suicide should be abolished.
My Lords, attempted suicide presents rather different problems. Many cases of suicide are the outcome of intolerable mental stress amounting to mental illness. It is even more true that most cases of attempted suicide flow from some form of mental stress or unbalance. Recent research suggests, for example, that those who attempt suicide are often making an appeal for help, and that the underlying motive, if not the expressed one, may well be to secure a more satisfactory relationship with those around them as a result of their suicidal attempt. Experience shows that happier relationships can, in fact, be established after an unsuccessful suicide attempt. At all events, I think we can agree that, as with suicide itself, attempted suicide also has none of the characteristics of criminal conduct. On the contrary, it is very often a sign that medical and social help is wanted.
For many years now the practice of the police has been to institute criminal proceedings only where there are no relatives or friends willing to give help and accept responsibility, or where the person making the attempt has refused to accept help from those about him. The success of this practice in reducing the number of occasions when a prosecution has been necessary can be seen in the figures. In 1959, there were 4,980 attempts to commit suicide known to the police, but criminal proceedings were brought in only 518 cases. The figures for previous years are similar. Indeed, the only justification for retaining the offence has been that it has provided a means of bringing before the courts, and perhaps helping, those who have made suicidal attempts. It has never been suggested that the retention of the offence has provided any deterrent, nor do the figures bear out such a suggestion.
Besides the 5,000 or so attempts which come to the notice of the police every year, it has been estimated that a I further 25,000 attempts are made and

249
concealed because of the social and criminal stigma attaching to the act. Criminal proceedings are not the best way of dealing with people who are in distress or disturbance of mind, however sympathetic the approach of individual police officers, the courts and all those who come in contact with them. The stigma of having been subject to the criminal law does sometimes cause real harm and distress; and there is not infrequently added the stigma of having been in prison. I have in mind not so much the rare cases in which the court thinks it necessary to pass a sentence of imprisonment, but the much more numerous cases in which the court, very properly, remands the accused in custody to obtain a medical report to assist it in deciding how best to deal with the case. Nor is it right to make use of criminal proceedings when the object is primarily medical or therapeutic. Provided, therefore, that this object can be achieved by other methods, the Home Secretary has concluded that attempts to commit suicide should also cease to be offences against the criminal law.
This view is supported by the considered opinion of those most closely concerned with this problem, from the aspects of ethics and religion, medicine and the administration of justice. No doubt many of your Lordships have already read the booklet on the subject issued by the Church Assembly Board for Social Responsibility, in which the view is put forward that suicide and attempted suicide should cease to be crimes. And here I would say how glad I am that the right reverend Prelate the Lord Bishop of Carlisle is with us to-day and is to join our debate. A joint council of the British Medical Association and the Magistrates' Association have come to the same conclusion. My right honourable friend has also had in mind the fact that the law of England and Wales is almost alone in treating suicide and attempted suicide as criminal offences. As your Lordships may be aware, they are not criminal offences under the law of Scotland; and inquiries made recently showed that in the other countries of Western Europe they are regarded as constituting essentially a psychiatric problem which need not, and should not, be brought within the ambit of the criminal law.
250
The only problem has been the practical one of whether alternative and more appropriate methods are available for providing help where it is needed or has been rejected. I think I can assure your Lordships that this will be the case. Arrangements have been made by my right honourable friend the Minister of Health to ensure that persons who are brought to hospital having attempted suicide are examined by a psychiatrist, who can consider whether treatment or supervision is needed. Under the provisions of Part IV of the Mental Health Act, 1959, it is possible to detain for 28 days' observation a person who appears to be suffering from mental disorder and who ought to be detained for his own health or safety. This short period of compulsory detention can be initiated either by the application of the nearest relative or by that of a mental welfare officer. In these circumstances it has been thought possible and right to introduce this reform in the law, which is effected by Clause 1 of the Bill.
My Lords, one consequence of the fact that suicide and attempted suicide will no longer be criminal offences is that, if nothing more were done, any person who aided or abetted the successful or attempted suicide of another would similarly not be guilty of a criminal offence. The moral culpability of assisting another person to commit suicide varies widely. The assistance may be no more than providing at the earnest entreaty of the sufferer, drugs for a person who is suffering from painful and incurable illness. At the other extreme, the person assisting may have advised and assisted the suicide, from whose death he derives financial advantage. Even when we decide that the motives of a person who seeks to take his own life should no longer be the concern of the criminal law, we cannot say the same of those who are involved in bringing about the death of another. We must therefore ensure that complicity in the attempted or successful suicide of another does not cease to be an offence.
My right honourable friend felt that this was a problem which could most appropriately be considered by the Criminal Law Revision Committee, of which Lord Justice Sellers is Chairman, and he accordingly referred it to that body. Their Report was published as a

251
White Paper in October last, and it is upon that Report that the present Bill is based. I hope that your Lordships will allow me to pause here for a moment to express my own gratitude to my right honourable friend Lord Justice Sellers, and his colleagues, for the work they have done. The Committee came to the conclusion that the most satisfactory solution to the problem with which we are faced would be to create a completely new offence of aiding, abetting, counselling or procuring the suicide of another or an attempt by another to commit suicide.
The arguments on which they based this conclusion are set out in their Report (if your Lordships have not seen it, it is Command Paper 1187) and I shall not rehearse them now. Recognising that the culpability of some who may be convicted of this offence may be very grave, they proposed that the maximum sentence for the offence should be fourteen years' imprisonment. Effect is given to this proposal in the Bill. As your Lordships at once understand, it will of course be open to the courts, in a proper case, to impose a much less severe sentence. For the same reason, that this may be a very serious offence indeed, the Home Secretary has accepted the Criminal Law Revision Committee's recommendation that trial by a court of quarter sessions should be excluded. It is true, as I have already said, that offences under this Bill may be committed in circumstances in which the moral culpability will be very small. It will not be possible to reach that conclusion, however, until all the circumstances have been fully investigated; and we think that where a person is charged with an offence which may involve the death of another, the trial should be before a court of assize. The fact that in any particular instance death may not have resulted does not, we think, affect this conclusion. The requirement that proceedings shall not be instituted except by or with the consent of the Director of Public Prosecutions will ensure that consistency is maintained.
To explain one other provision relating to this new offence, perhaps I may be allowed to say a word about suicide pacts. The circumstances in which these are undertaken may be as various as those in which people commit suicide, or attempt to do so, alone: the motives which lead two, or perhaps more, people
252
to conclude that this tragic course is the only solution to their problems may be no less sincere and their distress may be just as great. A pretended suicide pact may, however, provide a means for an unscrupulous person to rid himself of another with whom he has become entangled or from whose death he hopes to derive advantage, a person who may very likely be younger or more easily influenced, in a way in which he may hope to escape serious punishment, and perhaps even to attract sympathy. I do not think I need elaborate to your Lordships the possible circumstances. Most of us have known of cases of that kind, and experienced the variations which I have mentioned. It is clear that we need to retain adequate sanctions to deal with such an offender in the serious case.
The existing provisions covering the circumstances are contained in subsection (1) of Section 4 of the Homicide Act, 1957. Perhaps your Lordships will allow me to quote it:
"It shall be manslaughter, and shall not be murder, for a person acting in pursuance of a suicide pact between him and another to kill the other or to he a party to the other killing himself or being killed by a third person."
May I just repeat the last lines, because they are important for the remaining provisions of this clause:
"for a person acting in pursuance of a suicide pact between him and another to kill the other or to be a party to the other killing himself or being killed by a third person."
Broadly, this provision covers two situations. The first arises where the suicide kills himself in pursuance of a suicide pact. The survivor under the existing law will be guilty of manslaughter. But he will also be guilty of the offence we are creating under this Bill. It is therefore proposed to repeal the words "killing himself or" in subsection 4 (1) of the Homicide Act. This will leave these circumstances to be dealt with by the present Bill.
The other situation arises when the deceased, who is a partner to a suicide pact, dies not by his own hand but at the hand of the survivor or a third party. A clear distinction can be drawn between this situation and what we normally understand by suicide. This situation may have resulted from a genuine suicide pact, in which case the two things will be very similar, though still distinguishable. On the other hand, it may differ from murder only in that the deceased consented to his own death. For this reason

253
it was provided in the Homicide Act that it should be manslaughter. My right honourable friend does not think that the introduction of the new offence in any way alters the considerations which led to the inclusion of the provision I have mentioned in the Homicide Act and, with the exception of the small repeal I have already referred to, he does not propose to interfere with that provision.
This leaves one small difficulty. The police, or whoever it is who comes upon the partners in a suicide pact, may find one of them dead but may succeed in reviving the other. There may be no way of telling which partner, say, turned on the gas tap; or the police may have reason to disbelieve the story of the survivor. The decision may, therefore, be taken to prefer charges under the Homicide Act. At the trial, however, evidence may be adduced, or the survivor may satisfy the jury, that it really was the deceased who was responsible for his own death. In these circumstances the survivor will have committed no offence under the Homicide Act, and the Bill therefore provides that he may in that case be found guilty of the lesser offence created by this Bill.
My Lords, this is a limited measure, but it is one which we hope will secure general support. It will serve to relieve many people from one further cause of distress and anxiety in the circumstances which they already find sufficiently distressing. We hope that only good will flow from it, and we envisage no evil consequences. The Bill is supported by religious opinion, the medical profession and magistrates. I hope that I have now said enough to commend it also to your Lordships. I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a. —(The Lord Chancellor.)
4.27 p.m.
LORD SILKIN: My Lords, I am sure that the whole House will be most grateful to the noble and learned Viscount for the way in which he has introduced this most humane measure. I am not sure about the legal effect of enacting that suicide will cease to be a crime. I do not know whether the fact that a person commits suicide leads to certain consequences in law as regards his estate, or in any other way. Nor do
254
I appreciate from the Bill itself that it is intended to cover also attempted suicide. That, however, is a Committee point, and perhaps I can deal with it at a later stage.
Suicide is at present an offence; it constitutes an approach, a distinct moral approach, to life. We are at the moment taking the view, until this Act is passed, that the community has a responsibility to preserve the life of a person who wants to end it. As recently as 1957, in the Homicide Act, we actually legislated on that assumption; but to-day that assumption is going. We are taking the view that it is no longer the business of the community to preserve the life of a person who wants to end his life. Whether or not suicide is a sin is a matter which is not for this House, but in the future it will certainly not be an offence.
It may be that this change in outlook has been influenced by the very fine pamphlet which has been issued by the Churches and which I have had the pleasure of reading. It may be that we really do hold life less sacredly to-day, in view of the fact that we are devising weapons which can destroy half the population of a whole nation, some of whom may have no particular blame for anything for which the weapons are being discharged. At any rate, we are making a very definite departure from what has been hitherto our approach to human life.
I think we ought to appreciate exactly what we are doing. I commend it. I feel that if a person wants to end his life it is no part of the business of the State to prevent him, still less to punish him for having failed in his attempt. But I think it right, while we are discussing this question, that we should examine the underlying motives of people who commit suicide. The noble and learned Viscount told us that there are, roughly, 5,000 persons who commit suicide in a year. That number has been increasing, not only in this country but in many other countries. It is rather strange that in countries where the standard of living, the material standard of living, is higher, it is increasing more rapidly than here. The suicide rate in the United States, and in Sweden, is substantially higher than it is in this country, although their standard of living is high. I should say, offhand, that the probability that suicide is caused

255
by material reasons, material sufferings, has been greatly reduced in recent years, even though the number of suicides is increasing.
Clearly, a person who commits suicide is finding life unbearable for a variety of reasons. I think the most common cause may well be that a person is suffering unbearable pain and at the same time, suffering from an incurable illness. That clearly gives rise to the question, which I know is not before the House at this moment, as to how far it is blameworthy on the part of someone who is near and dear to this kind of person, and who witnesses the sufferings and is asked to aid and abet in the killing, and who actually takes part in the killing, and as to how far he is to be punished for having done so. But that, again, is a matter which I hope to raise at a later stage. There is such a thing as mercy killing; there are many advocates of that, and there are people who would place in the hands of the medical profession the right to kill a patient, at his or her request, in certain circumstances. I myself should probably agree with the doctors that their business is to preserve life and not to end it. But it is, to a certain extent, evading the question to say that in cases where the doctor knows that the consequence of what he is doing is that the person who is suffering so grievously will in any case end his life if he possibly can.
There is the question of mental stress, which the noble and learned Viscount touched on. I should like to tell the House of my own experience of this kind of thing, which I am sure has given rise to a great many cases of suicide, and to see whether there is anything that can be done. I think that here the Churches have a very great part to play. For many years of my life I was what is described as a "Poor Man's Lawyer"; that is to say, I used to go out to various parts of London, and people came to me to tell me their troubles—they were not necessarily legal troubles. I think that for a long time the majority were housing difficulties, which were very, very oppressive to the people concerned. But what I found to a great extent was that people had their difficulties of all kinds and really wanted a sympathetic listener, not necessarily to advise them but to listen to their troubles. It always seemed to me so pathetic that that
256
should be a need of anybody in this country; that people should not be able to find a sympathetic audience anywhere but should have to come to a complete stranger, under the guise of seeking legal advice.
Here, I feel, is a place for the Churches, in particular. It does not matter whether the person concerned is a member of their particular faith or of any faith at all. I think the members of the clergy have a special opportunity and a special gift for listening to people's troubles and, if they need advice, advising them. The awful thing was that in so many cases that I came across these troubles, these so-called troubles, were trifling. A word of advice, even a word making these people feel that they were not alone in this kind of trouble, and that so many of us went through the same thing, would help. A favourite gambit of mine was to tell them, "Well, I have the same thing myself". In many cases that was a tremendous comfort. But I feel that many of the cases one saw during the years (I was not able to keep continuous contact with these people) or at any rate a number of them, must have ended in suicide. That struck me as the state they had reached. These people could be saved if, somehow, we could provide a more sympathetic contact, and better opportunities for people to talk over their troubles, or at least somebody to listen to them. This Bill is a step in the right direction. I hope that we shall not be content with a situation in which we have an increasing number of suicides every year, and that, with 25,000 attempts every year, we really shall try to do something to prevent this, whatever the causes may be.
Finally, there is one legal point to which I should like to refer. The noble and learned Viscount has mentioned Section 4 of the Homicide Act, under which it is manslaughter for a person acting in pursuance of a suicide pact between him and another to kill the other, or to be a party to the other being killed by a third person. I take it that that is intended to deal with cases where, genuinely, two people decided to commit suicide and one of them (to quote the example given by the noble and learned Viscount) turns on the tap. The penalty under Section 4(1), I believe I am right in saying, may be imprisonment for life.

257
I must confess that I find it a little difficult to distinguish between that kind of offence, where people are genuinely deciding to end their lives, which the noble and learned Viscount tells us under this Bill is no longer to be regarded as a crime, and those cases where a person aids and abets which also are referred to in the Bill itself. The aider and abettor is to be liable to a charge of manslaughter and to a term of imprisonment not exceeding fourteen years. The other person, whose culpability, in my view, is not necessarily any greater (I think the noble and learned Viscount attempted to draw a distinction, but I myself do not see the distinction very clearly, certainly in cases of a suicide pact), may be liable to imprisonment for life. Anyway, I think that, in either case fourteen years is too severe. But these are Committee points, and I hope we shall have an opportunity of coming back to them.
I welcome this Bill, and I think that everyone in this House will. We may have something to say at a later stage upon it. But I hope—and I want to emphasise this—that neither the Government nor the Churches, nor, indeed, any one who has any influence in these matters, will be content with merely recording the number of suicides and the number of attempts, and with making the legal consequences less stringent. I hope they will all do everything they possibly can to reduce the number of these suicides and attempts—and, incidentally, of course, to reduce the terrible sufferings that must exist for a long period before these people attempt to commit suicide.
4.42 p.m.
THE LORD BISHOP OF CARLISLE: My Lords, I should like to begin by joining in the thanks to the noble and learned Viscount for the way in which he has presented this Bill, and, if I may also be allowed a personal word, by expressing my appreciation of the welcome that your Lordships so kindly gave to me in coming here to speak. I have nothing more than my own small contribution to make, and I make it in the way in which Members of this House offer what they can to a discussion. But it is indeed encouraging to be assured of a welcome, and always to be certain of a courteous hearing.
258
It is, indeed, a very solemn problem with which we are dealing. Your Lordships have heard the figures, giving the number of people who committed suicide in the year 1959–60 and the number who were unsuccessful in their attempts. We could probably say that to-day there are upwards of 30,000 men and women who have attempted suicide and have failed. As we think of those 30,000 people, distraught in mind and soul, there is only one decent response in the heart of any man or woman, and that is the response of compassion; and I have come here to support this Bill in general because I believe it is motivated by compassion. But compassion is not enough. Society has a basic duty to protect life, and many of our laws are designed for that one purpose. In passing, I would just say that I do not find myself able to agree with the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, in his statement which, unless I misunderstood seemed to say that a person had an inherent right to take his own life, and that society had not the right to prevent it. That I would question; but I do not want to go into it at this stage. I believe that society has a basic duty to protect life; and, therefore, society must take account of suicide in terms of law as well as in terms of compassion—compassion and law.
The problem which this Bill seeks to solve is to frame a law which aims at doing three things: ministering compassion, protecting society and upholding the sanctity of human life. Those three objects need to be kept clearly in mind. In my judgment, the Bill secures the first object—that is, compassion—by taking suicide out of the criminal list, and I shall be very glad indeed to support that clause. It is right, and I believe that it should be so dealt with. In Clause 2, the Bill attempts to secure what I referred to as the second and third objects—the protection of society and the upholding of the sanctity of life. Clause 2 makes it a crime to encourage or assist or tempt anyone to take his own life. It is concerned with the protection of life in society.
Now while Clause 2 helps to protect society, I am not satisfied that it is sufficiently strong to uphold the sanctity of life, and it is on this point that I want to concentrate. I want to be assured that in this

259
Bill there is something of law that secures and makes very clear to everyone the sanctity of human life. To abrogate the rule of law whereby suicide is a crime is right; but in doing so there must, in my judgment, be enough left in the law to convey to everyone that to take life, one's own life, is literally a dreadful thing, contrary to natural instinct and contrary to natural law. I am satisfied, as I say, that Clause 2 is strong enough to show how dreadful it is to assist in helping another to take his life—it does that; it prescribes the penalty—but I submit that it is not strong enough to show how dreadful and how contrary to nature it is to take one's own life.
In proceeding with this Bill, we have to think of how it will be interpreted, not by those who are experts in the law or by those whose minds are trained to think in very exact terms; we have to think- of how a change in the law will be interpreted in the setting of society as it is, of society in general. It may be a surprise to many of your Lordships to hear me say this, but I believe it is true, that a large proportion of people regard what is lawful as permissible and therefore right, and what is unlawful as for-bidden and therefore wrong. We may lament that they should make legal distinctions coincide with moral distinctions, but it is understandable that many people just take that as the normal way of looking at things. If I were persuaded that this Bill contained a strong enough witness to the sanctity of life, I would wholeheartedly support it, and I want to support it. At the moment I am not so persuaded. I hope it will not be regarded as an impertinence—it is not meant to be—if I say that I am not even satisfied with this report produced by a Committee of my own Church, because I feel that there is not strong enough witness borne in it to what I call the sacredness of every human life. I want the Bill amended to make it crystal clear that suicide, even when legally permissible, is still a dreadful offence against nature.
I know it is a difficult subject, and I have only an amateurish knowledge of natural law, but I cannot help but think that natural law would determine the taking of one's life as unlawful. I want
260
this law carried out in such a way that the person who attempts suicide unsuccessfully is not punished for the attempt. I do not want punishment brought in at all; it is not appropriate. I want to see some notice taken of the unfortunate person who attempts suicide and fails, and that he or she is given medical treatment. If that provision were in the Bill, the law would be administering not punishment but compassion, through medical treatment. At the same time, it would be seen that the law took cognisance of an attempt to commit suicide, and thus would be a dissuasion against suicide which all can understand. As the Bill stands at present, it seems to me that, if enacted, this law would take no notice at all of an unsuccessful attempt at suicide unless such attempt had been prompted or assisted by another person.
I did not know that the noble Viscount was going to make reference to the Mental Health Act, but I was going to make one or two remarks about it. The Mental Health Act seems to me to indicate a way through this difficulty of taking punishment away and putting in its place treatment, of substituting compassion for penalty. As I understand the Mental Health Act, people who suffer from mental illness need not seek medical advice; but if they become really difficult, then it is possible for the law to intervene and to give to two doctors the right to ask a magistrate for compulsory power to treat that patient. I think I am right in that interpretation. There is in the Mental Health Act compulsory power to treat a patient who does not seek treatment of his own freedom. If a person attempts to commit suicide and fails, I should like to see some similar kind of provision. The noble Viscount indicated that if a person who attempted suicide were brought by a relative to a hospital to receive treatment, that would be all right; but if he refused to go, I do not know of any power which could insist on that person's taking the treatment which the very act of attempting suicide clearly indicates he needs. I should like to ask that that point be looked at very carefully so that some provision may be made for such a case.
I should like to refer once again to the statement which I understood the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, to make. First of all,

261
he claimed that society really had no right to stop a person who wanted to take his own life. That I would not accept. Then he went on to say—
LORD SILKIN: My Lords, I have allowed the right reverend Prelate to say that once without interrupting, but this is the second time. What I tried to say was that this seamed to me to be the conception of the Bill. Seeing that it was no longer to be a crime, and that society was not required to take note of suicide or attempted suicide, it appeared to me that we were no longer regarding it as the business of society to preserve life.
THE LORD BISHOP OF CARLISLE: My Lords, I am glad to have that explanation and I fully withdraw all I have said. If I have misrepresented the noble Lord in any way, I apologise for it. I was going on to say that later the noble Lord said something Which appealed very much to me. He said that he had found in his experience many people who were so distraught that they were in danger of trying to commit suicide. What they needed was someone to talk to and with Whom to share their troubles and their lives. With that I am in full agreement, and I should like to see some provision like that embedded in this law, so that there was a statutory body, not a court of law but some authorised person, to whom such a sick person Who had attempted suicide and failed might go, or might be compelled to go. In that way he would receive treatment and compassion of the kind we should seek to administer.
To sum up, I want to support the Bill because I want compassion, not punishment, administered to the person who tries to commit suicide but fails. I want this done in such a way that the law will still clearly proclaim the sacredness of human life. I want the law to be clearly dissuasive against the unnatural act of taking one's own life. I am not versed sufficiently in the law to be able to form an Amendment, but I hope that if the point I have been trying to make is regarded as sufficiently serious, then a real effort will be made to do this, and I feel sure that I shall receive all the help of noble Lords versed in the law to formulate such an Amendment. It may be very difficult, but I sometimes think that all things are possible with
262
lawyers. We are legislating for people who will be distraught in mind and soul and looking into the gate of death. We are dealing with a basic sanctity, the sanctity of human life. I believe that the preservation of that sanctity is basic for the wellbeing of any society. I believe that it needs to be preserved at all costs, and so my submission to your Lordships is a solemn one. I want to do everything possible through the law and at the same time to guard that view of life which regards life as a mystery, a wonderful and sacred thing which has been given to man by other than himself.
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL: My Lords, may I ask the right reverend Prelate a question before he sits down? I have endeavoured to follow his argument and was impressed by the fact that, in the opening passages of his speech, he said that it was dreadfully wrong to do something that was against nature. The suicide is indeed resisting the strongest instinct, the instinct of self-preservation. Would the right reverend Prelate follow that up and say that it is wrong to resist natural instincts?
THE LORD BISHOP OF CARLISLE: My Lords, I would say that I cannot accept that a man has the right to take his own life; that that is contrary to a basic thing in nature that is even deeper than normal instincts and that is at the very root of life itself. There cannot be anything for man if he acts contrary to life and imposes his own death.
5.3 p.m.
LORD DENNING: My Lords, if your Lordships approve this Bill, it will end a most interesting chapter of our English law, because for nearly a thousand years suicide has been regarded as the most heinous of felonies—the felony of self-murder. In consequence attempted suicide was a crime, a suicide pact was murder, and helping another to commit suicide was also murder. I say "for nearly a thousand years", because it was King Edgar, nearly one thousand years ago, who decreed that it was a crime for a man to take his own life, denied him burial rights and laid down that all his Goods were to be forfeited.
The reason for that law was stated by Blackstone to be founded, as it was, on our religion. The law of England,

263
he said, wisely and religiously decreed that no man had power to destroy life except by commission by God, the author of it. He said that it was twofold; that one was spiritual. He said that to commit suicide was invading the prerogative of the Almighty, by rushing into His presence uncalled for. The other was temporal, against the King, because the King had an interest in the preservation of all his subjects. Those being the reasons for the law, the punishment which we inflicted for hundreds of years was twofold. First, on the corpse we inflicted ignominious burial. The suicide was buried at a cross-roads with a stake through his body and a stone on his face. Indeed, that continued until 1824, and the last suicide who was buried at the cross-roads was at Grosvenor Place. Even after that, until 1882, a suicide had to be buried by night; and ever since 1882 up to this day, according to the law of the Church of England, a suicide is not entitled to Christian burial. You will remember the gravediggers' scene in Hamlet and how Shakespeare puts into the mouth of the gravedigger these words:
"Is she to be buried in Christian burial that wilfully seeks her own salvation?"
It never has been so. I expect that now that suicide is to be no longer a crime and I am glad to say it—a suicide will be permitted by Ecclesiastical Law a Christian burial, maybe with an alternative form of service recommended. That would be a final end to the law of dishonour in the courts. That was one angle of the punishment.
The other angle was to forfeit the goods, lands or leases of a suicide to the King. The great case, on which Shakespeare founded the scene of Ophelia, was the case in which Sir James Hale threw himself into the river at Canterbury, and the question was whether his widow would be entitled to his lease of the Graveney Marshes on his death. The Judges held that the widow was not entitled, and it went to the Crown. That forfeiture existed until 1870, when we abolished it. But there is one form of forfeiture which exists to this day and which I hope this Bill, when passed, will do away with—monies on insurance policies.
I should like to give your Lordships a concrete case in which I was con-
264
cerned some 20 years ago, the case of a Major Rowlandson. He owed some £40,000 to his creditors but he had £80,000 on life assurance policies, which said that they were payable even if he died by his own hands, sane or insane, after the first year. They were due to expire at three o'clock on a summer afternoon and he had not got the money to renew the premiums. At quarter past two, he went to his solicitor in Chancery Lane and saw him, came out at quarter to three, hailed a taxicab and said to the driver, "Drive me to my flat in Albemarle Street and as you pass St. James's Palace clock, look at the time and note it." The taxi driver did so. It was three minutes to three. The cab was going up St. James's Street when the driver heard a shot and got out of his cab. There was Major Rowlandson, dead, at one minute to three, just in time, you might think, for the insurance policy monies to be payable. But the insurance company refused to pay. I happened to be led in the case by Sir William Jowitt, who tried to persuade the jury that Major Rowlandson was of unsound mind, but the Judge directed the jury that he was doing the act of a gallant English gentleman, killing himself for the sake of his creditors. The jury found him of sound mind, and although we appealed on the law right up to this House, it was held in your Lordships' House, sitting judicially, that no man could take a benefit from a crime, and suicide was the most heinous crime known to the law. So the policy monies were not recoverable, and the premiums were not recoverable, because suicide is a crime by English law.
It is different in Scotland, next door, where it has never been a crime; it is different in South Africa, where it is not a crime. But in most other parts of the Commonwealth it still is a crime and still will be, by law, if this Bill passes. The consequence is that policies are not payable and insurance companies can repudiate their liabilities contracted to pay on death. One of the benefits of this Bill when it passes is that suicide will no longer be a crime and insurance companies will have to honour their liabilities on their policies; all forfeitures will be gone; all dishonouring of the corpse will be gone.
What about attempted suicide? Suicide was a crime, and attempting to commit

265
suicide was also a crime. If suicide ceases to be a crime now, attempted suicide will cease to be a crime; and one is very glad of that. I have had cases of attempted suicide before me, and what one always did was to bind them over and arrange for medical treatment. But now, since the Mental Health Act, 1959, to which the right reverend Prelate referred, it is unnecessary for any action to be taken in the courts. There is procedure laid down in that Act for application to be made through the relatives or the doctors and medical attention can be given. So there is no need for attempted suicide to be a crime any more. It will not be a crime, but will be treated medically and mentally.
But there is another consequence of suicide's being a crime. In the old days anyone who aided and abetted a suicide, as that was self-murder, was charged with complicity in it. Suicide pacts have been dealt with in the Homicide Act; they are now manslaughter in the survivor. But what about the case dealt with in Clause 2 of this Bill, aiding and abetting suicide? if we do away with suicide as a crime, logically we do away with any aiding and abetting, because you cannot aid and abet a crime when it is no longer a crime. Indeed, it is illogical to have this clause in here, but it may be needed (we get to difficult questions here) to deal with a case where a patient who may be in great pain and distress wishes to end his days and the doctor leaves him with a sedative or a sleeping draught to take him on his way. Under the 13ill as now framed, the doctor will be guilty of an offence punishable with 14 years' imprisonment for so doing. It is aiding and abetting an offence which is not an offence, if your Lordships see what I mean, and it is quite illogical.
Nevertheless, you might get the troublesome case where a man was anxious that his wife should commit suicide and might be quite ready to aid and abet. So perhaps (I would not commit myself further) Clause 2 of the Bill may be necessary. All I can say is that it has never been found necessary in Scotland, and Scotland has not made suicide a crime. But some people may think that you should not even make this aiding and abetting. But if you do, perhaps I might join hands with the right reverend Prelate on this point,
266
and it might be as well to say that suicide is still unlawful, although it is not a crime, and therefore you can aid and abet it. That is the only way out of the illogical difficulty. Those are just comments made in passing. This Bill heralds the end of a long chapter in our English law, and I suggest it is much to be welcomed.
5.15 p.m.
BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGER: My Lords, it is a special pleasure to me to welcome this for more reasons than one. First, I have the pleasure and privilege of being associated with the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack, and to find myself supporting his proposal and no longer in controversy with him. I should like to associate myself, too, with the remarks that have already been made in appreciation of the lucid and humane way in which he has placed this proposal before your Lordships.
Secondly, I am glad to welcome this Bill because it represents a change of heart in Her Majesty's Government in a direction which I am sure is much appreciated by noble Lords on both sides of the House. It proves that Her Majesty's Government are not only able to have a change of heart, but can have that change fairly quickly and in a very welcome direction. It is, after all, barely more than three years since the Home Secretary resisted a suggestion that the law might be changed, as is now proposed, on the ground [OFFICIAL REPORT, Commons, Vol. 581, col. 1327] that the
"concept of suicide as a crime has its roots in religious belief."
And he was not able in February, 1958, to accept that alteration of the basic concept would be universally acceptable.
It may well be that the origin of the concept that suicide should be a crime is rooted in religious belief, and it would ill become me, in the presence of the right reverend Prelate opposite, to discuss the religious aspect of this matter. But I may perhaps be permitted for a moment to remind your Lordships of some aspects of the history of this matter. The early Christians were, I think, very much disposed to suicide; and perhaps they were so disposed through excessive rationality. They assumed that by an early departure from this life they could escape not only

267
its miseries, but also its temptations, and that they would thus equip themselves with a clean passport to the blessed state of the next world. It was, I think, because of this tendency to favour suicide that St. Augustine felt himself called upon to discourage the practice; and it was he, I think, who first described it as "a destestable and damnable wickedness". Indeed, St. Augustine went so far as to say that even those virgins who attempted to commit suicide to save their virtue should not do so, since chastity was a virtue of the mind and will rather than of the flesh. Suicide then became a crime, as well as a sin, as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Denning, has pointed out. Perhaps we could now say that in a more sophisticated age, even if we do not take a more cheerful view of life upon this earth, we are more disposed to discriminate between crimes and sins. It is still possible to hold that the taking of life, whether one's own life or that of another, is a grievous sin, and, at the same time, that it is unnecessary, unwise, and inhumane to make it a crime.
Secondly, surely we can make this change partly because we must appreciate that suicide is in some measure socially caused. It is a significant fact that the statistics of suicide within this country follow a consistent pattern. Within even the County of London, the boroughs with the high incidence have high suicide rates consistently year after year. They are those parts of London in which many people live alone in lodging houses or hotels, or in which there is a floating and unstable population and little settled family life. They are not necessarily the areas of the greatest poverty—indeed, they are often the areas of comparative prosperity. But they are the areas of social disorganisation and lack of cohesion. For that, it is not so much individuals but society which is responsible.
This is not a small problem, the noble and learned Viscount has pointed out. Your Lordships have often discussed the grave blot upon the contemporary scene which is due to the numerous deaths upon the roads. For every six persons who are killed upon the roads, nearly five persons take their own lives, and the problem of suicide is therefore comparable to the grave problem of the casualties resulting from road accidents. I think it is not
268
always appreciated quite how much this is a problem of the young, which makes it the greater tragedy. Of the attempted suicides that are known to the police, more than half are of persons under the age of 40. More than 180 are attempts made by persons under 17 and, most tragic of all, eighteen attempts were made last year by people under 14. Even of the actual successful suicides, a score were made last year by persons under 17. Not only is it a problem of the young, but it is also a problem, sometimes, of the particularly gifted young. Your Lordships may be aware that in Oxford and Cambridge—Oxford—particularly—the suicide rate is enormously higher among undergraduates than it is for the same age groups in the rest of the community.
It is true, as the noble and learned Viscount has said, that it is only in very exceptional cases that the police take proceedings—in only, I think, about one in ten of the cases that come to their knowledge. It is also true that the courts in general deal with those cases with compassion. Nevertheless, last year a score of people were sent to prison on charges of attempted suicide. No doubt that sentence was passed largely for their own protection, or for the protection of the community, but I am sure we are all of one mind that in this day and age we have far better resources and far better means of protecting those persons from their own dangerous impulses than to incarcerate them, even in the best of prisons.
We may have a few doubts about some aspects of this Bill, particularly about the maximum of fourteen years in prison for aiding and abetting. We may have some doubts as to whether counselling must also be included along with aiding and abetting. But those are points which can be taken at a later stage, and they certainly do not impair the satisfaction with which we welcome this extremely humane and, perhaps, long overdue measure.
5.24 p.m.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I must first express my deep gratitude to all who have spoken for their kindness, not only with regard to the Bill but with regard to myself. I am particularly glad, if I may say so, to have found a subject of agreement with the noble Baroness, Lady Wootton

269
of Abinger, which is one of such importance and human compassion. I hope your Lordships will forgive me if I deal with the points that were raised at rather more length than I should have hoped to do, because they are points of great importance, and I think to get this subject in perspective it is necessary that some impressions should be corrected.
The noble Lord, Lord Silkin, began with a passing reference to the legal rights that might be affected, and my noble and learned friend Lord Denning took up that point. I would assure Lord Silkin that we considered the matter very carefully before the Bill was introduced. Of course, it is correct, as Lord Denning said—if he will allow me to underline his words—that even where a policy expressly includes a term providing for payment on the suicide of a person insured, neither the sum assured nor the premiums paid will be recoverable in law because the courts refuse to give effect to such a term, on the ground that it is contrary to public policy that a person should benefit from the results of his own crime. If I understood my noble and learned friend Lord Denning correctly, his prophecy is that that will not apply when suicide or attempted suicide ceases to be a crime, and that the courts will not take the view that it remains contrary to public policy simply because it is morally wrong. That, as I understood it, was the noble Lord's view.
When I was thinking of my reply to the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, before my noble and learned friend spoke, I did not think that I should be able to give him as much comfort as that. I thought that, in my position as President of the Supreme Court in this country, I should have to say that it is a matter which my colleagues might have to consider. But as he has heard the consideration of one of my most brilliant colleagues, I think that helps him very much in considering the point. But there is the other point which weighed with us: that in fact the life insurance companies do not now make use of the public policy defence. If they wish to contract themselves they insert an appropriate condition. I should like to inform the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, that the Life Offices Association, so far as my information goes, have expressed themselves satisfied that life
270
insurance companies do not need a statutory provision to protect their interests, that the interests of the assured will not be adversely affected by the Bill and that no provision regarding insurance is necessary. I thought that would ease that aspect of the noble Lord's thoughts.
Then the noble Lord came to the terribly difficult subject of mercy killing. I think most of us feel—I certainly do —that the danger in regard to mercy killing is that it might be used, or people might be encouraged to use it, without a real sense of responsibility, and a dangerous practice might be set up. Obviously the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, had in mind the question when it was well safeguarded by medical opinion and the like. But I think, however much you do that, if you admitted the principle there would be a real danger of the spread of its use.
I am affected in my consideration of this by the personal experiences I had when I bad to examine the Government of Nazi Germany in preparation for the Nuremburg trials. There, of course, they passed from mercy killing to the elimination of useless lives; and, speaking from memory, I think 275,000 of allegedly useless lives, of old and sick people very largely, were taken by the Nazi Governnient on that basis. I know there is a world of difference between that and what the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, was talking about, but it shows that the slope on which he contemplated the embarking is one which can quicky become a slippery one, and I should want to consider it carefully before I changed my view. My own view is largely a religious view, but I am quite prepared to consider other views that do not share my religious feeling in the matter; I am quite prepared to consider them on their logical and rational merits. But I feel, from both points of view, that once one has made the departure one is embarking on a very stormy and difficult sea.
The next point that the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, asked me about was the question of suicide pacts. May I remind him of the way in which they are dealt within the Homicide Act? In subsection (3) of the section to which I referred it is stated:
"For the purposes of this section 'suicide pact' means a common agreement between two or more persons having far its object the death of all of them whether or not each is to take his own life, but nothing done by a person

271
who enters into a suicide pact shall be treated as done by him in pursuance of the pact unless it is done while he has the settled intention of dying in pursuance of the pact."
The next subsection puts the onus on the defence to prove that the person charged was acting in pursuance of a suicide pact. I have referred to that because it shows the importance that we attached—and I do not think there was any criticism of this attitude and intention when the Homicide Bill went through Parliament—to showing that the suicide pact must be proved by the defence to be a genuine suicide pact, and what was done must have been done "while he had the settled intention of dying".
The difficulty is that a suicide pact varies from the case which the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, quoted, where it is really no different from a person's committing suicide alone but there are simply two people who decide to do it together and each is applying the same mental processes as the one. That is the one case. There may well be the difference I mentioned as to method. But it varies from that to something very akin to murder, and that is the case where one of the parties is so much the stronger personality that he induces the other to take part in the suicide pact and he may well have at the back of his mind the thought that he may not die.
I do not know whether the noble Baroness, Lady Wootton of Abinger, will agree with me from her experience, but the cases that one has to watch very closely are cases where a man gets thoroughly bored with a younger woman and wants to get quit of the entanglement and of being saddled with her personality in his life. It is all a matter of one's own experience, but that is a kind of case where the bogus suicide pact could be used and where it would be very easy, with emotional letters and so on, to create the facade of a true suicide pact. But even if one cuts out the case where there is the bogus element, there is still the case where somebody has forced a weaker personality to go into this scheme. Therefore, I think that there it was thought that it should be treated as manslaughter, that the life sentence should be retained and that it should be a matter for the court to discriminate between the different types.
If that is the position, I do not see how we can really treat very differently
272
cases of aiding and abetting suicide under this Bill. I do not know whether the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, has the Sellers Committee Report with him at the moment; I know, of course, that he has read it carefully. If he would look at paragraphs 5 and 8 he will see that, when they were considering the possible methods of dealing with the problem, they discussed a draft Bill and said:
"The main provisions are Clause 1, which abolishes the rule that suicide is an offence, and Clause 2 (1), which makes aiding, abetting, counselling or procuring the suicide of another, or an attempt by another to commit suicide, an indictable offence with a maximum sentence of imprisonment for fourteen years. This provision is broadly similar to proposals put forward by the Criminal Code Bill Commission … the Royal Commission on Capital Punishment in 1953…and the Committee under the Chairmanship of … [the] Principal of Jesus College, Oxford, which in 1959 examined the question of suicide on behalf of the Church Assembly Board for Social Responsibility…"
In paragraph 8 they say:
"The maximum penalty suggested in all three of the proposals mentioned in paragraph 5…"
those are the proposals which I have mentioned—
"… was life imprisonment, which is the maximum for manslaughter. We recognise that there is an argument for this, but we think that fourteen years would be sufficient for the gravest cases."
Therefore what we have selected is, in fact, a lesser penalty than those suggested by these three bodies of considerable standing and repute: and I would ask noble Lords (penalty is never an easy question) to consider these serious cases where there is the counselling or procuring of suicide by people who are in a dominating position. Of course, in those cases one would have to cover the possibility that their motive was not even as good as that of the person in the genuine suicide pact: the motive might be something quite extraneous, or indeed mercenary. Therefore I hope that all those who have spoken to-day, as I am sure they will, because of their interest, will consider that point. I think it is a serious point, and I shall consider what they have said. I think that deals in the merest outline, though I will consider them all more carefully, with the +main points which the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, has raised.
The right reverend Prelate, the Lord Bishop of Carlisle, mentioned something

273
which has given us the greatest difficulty and on which, after, I assure him, long consideration, we came to a different opinion from that which he expressed to-day: that is, as I understood the right reverend Prelate, that he felt that there ought to be some method of marking the wrongful character of the act of attempted suicide. That, I think, put broadly, is what he was arguing. It seems to me that there are really two answers to him, one of which, if I may say so with respect, he had discovered himself. The first was the Mental Health Act. Of course my noble and learned friend Lord Denning was right in pointing out to the right reverend Prelate that his idea of the working of the procedure in mental cases was really that before the Mental Health Act came into effect; and after much discussion the position has been changed from a magisterial inquiry to action on the report of two doctors.
If the right reverend Prelate will look again at Part IV of the Act, at the beginning of Section 25 and the succeeding sections, he will see that Section 25 deals with admission for observation. As I said in my opening speech, an application for admission for observation may be made in respect of a patient on the ground that he is suffering from mental disorder of a nature or degree that warrants the detention of the patient in a hospital under observation for at least a limited period, and that he ought to be so detained in the interests of his own health or safety, or with a view to the protection of other persons. The right reverend Prelate will find the same basis in dealing with admission for treatment. As I said, that can be done at the instance of a member of his family and also of a mental welfare officer.
THE LORD BISHOP OF CARLISLE: My Lords, I am sorry to interrupt the noble and learned Viscount. I am aware that it can he done at the instance of a relative. But am I wrong in saying that if the patient, as the noble Viscount calls him, refuses to see a doctor there is no authority that can compel him to do so?
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, he can also he admitted and detained, as I have said, on the application of a mental welfare officer. I want to deal with this point further, because I
274
am bound to admit—and I think anyone who has studied this problem will agree with me—that there will still be some cases in which a person who has attempted suicide will reject help and there will be no power to ensure that he is given any treatment or supervision that may be needed. Such cases may arise where the attempt has not resulted in any injury sufficient to warrant admission to hospital and where there are no grounds for compulsory detention under the provisions of the Mental Health Act. The right reverend Prelate can take it from me that there are powers of compulsory detention. I will write to him carefully on the point, but he can take it from me.
The point is, however—and this is what I want the right reverend Prelate to consider—that the motives of these persons will vary. Some without any mental disorder (and I admit this) may seriously intend to commit suicide, and may eventually do so. Others may be suffering from a degree of mental disorder which does not give them what I quoted from the Mental Health Act, and therefore is not enough to make them liable to compulsory detention. Another class are those who may not seriously intend to commit suicide but who may want to make a nuisance of themselves. These, roughly, are the three classes which must be considered.
It has been suggested—and I am not sure that the right reverend Prelate's speech was not a reprise of this—that it would be desirable to create a new summary offence in order to provide a means of dealing with such persons. We considered this idea. We did not think that it was practicable. The principal object of the Bill is to remove from suicidal attempts the stigma which attaches to their being subject to criminal proceedings. In the great majority of cases means will exist for giving help and treatment if it is needed. The only justification for creating a fresh offence of attempted suicide would be to make provision for a small minority who could not otherwise be dealt with. Of course I cannot say with certainty how small that minority would be, but it is estimated that the number of persons would be very small, and the conclusion has been reached that it would not be possible to frame an offence covering the attempts of those few persons which

275
would not also cover a much larger class of attempted suicides, as there is nothing in the nature of the attempts which distinguishes the minority who are neither liable to compulsory treatment nor willing to receive treatment voluntarily from the majority who can be satisfactorily dealt with. That is the point we have had to consider.
It may be said that the police could distinguish and would take proceedings only in the appropriate type of cases. That is a dangerous step to encourage in legislation that has been examined by Parliament. Therefore I would appeal to the right reverend Prelate to consider this point again, and not to pursue the line of endeavouring to create another offence of the kind I have suggested. I should be very willing to discuss the matter with him, but I should like him to know that we have considered it. I believe that that was the only other serious point raised.
I was very glad to get the support of my noble and learned friend Lord Denning. This year is the 400th anniversary of Bacon's birth, and whether there was anything underneath that reference in the gravediggers' scene to that famous case at the time, showing Shakespeare's unusual knowledge of law, I do not know. But I thank my noble and learned friend for his interesting contribution, and return full circle again to thank the noble Baroness, Lady Wootton of Abinger. I was especially glad that she drew the picture which we must all recognise. Again, like everything else, it puts on each one of us, as individuals, a Greater responsibility to do what we can, apart from the special position of the Church which the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, mentioned. I am sure that in dealing with that problem, so well stated by the noble Baroness, the step we are taking—abolishing the criminal characteristic—is a right one for their help as well as being one of humanity; and I ask your Lordships to give a Second Reading to the Bill.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.
House adjourned during pleasure.
House resumed.

ROYAL COMMISSION
6.0 p.m.
The following Bills and Measure received the Royal Assent:

Consolidated Fund,

Electricity (Amendment),

Agricultural Research etc. (Pensions),

Overseas Service,

Diplomatic Immunities (Conferences with Commonwealth Countries and Republic of Ireland),

Zetland County Council (Symbister Harbour) Order Confirmation,

Cardiff Corporation,

Esso Petroleum Company,

Farnham Castle Measure.

House adjourned during pleasure.
House resumed.

NURSES (AMENDMENT) BILL
6.13 p.m.
House in Committee (according to Order): Bill reported without amendment.

LANCASHIRE QUARTER SESSIONS BILL [H.L.]
The CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES The CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES informed the House that the opposition to the Bill was withdrawn: the orders made on the 8th and 16th February discharged, and Bill committed to an Unopposed Bill Committee.
House adjourned at a quartet past six o'clock.