Sitting of 12 June 1961

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  MINISTRY OF HEALTH

    Television Advertisements
    Mr. Darlingasked the Minister of Health whether, following the report of the Inter-Departmental Committee on Drug Addiction, he will make representations to the Independent Television Authority regarding the need to ensure that false claims are not made for drugs advertised by television.
    The Minister of Health (Mr. Enoch Powell): I understand that drugs of the type referred to in the Report are not advertised on television.
    Mr. Darling: Although the Report, as I understand the Minister has said, refers to prescribed drugs, is there not a case for seeing that drugs which are advertised generally in the Press and on television are examined by some reputable body to make sure that no misleading claims are made on their behalf by the manufacturers and advertisers?
    Mr. Powell: Any general question of limitations and so on on television must be for my right hon. Friend the Postmaster-General, but the Food and Drugs Act prohibits false or misleading descriptions of drugs in advertisements.

    Doctors, Upper Weardale
    Mr. Ainsleyasked the Minister of Health if he is aware of the proposal of the local executive council for a change in Upper Weardale, County Durham, from doctors' practice to group practice, the additional mileage in travel involved by this proposal and the local opposition to it; and if he will reconsider the decision.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health (Miss Edith Pitt): The executive council has not reached a decision on the doctors' proposal to alter their places and times of attendance.
    Mr. Ainsley: Will the Minister keep in mind the protest of the local authority, the letter of protest from the vicar on behalf of his parishioners in this area, and many letters of protest I am receiving on behalf of people in Upper Weardale about the proposal of the doctor to move from Upper Weardale to form a joint practice lower down in Weardale? Will he take into consideration the high altitude of this area in the Pennine range and that it is snowbound in winter time, and also the cases of emergency which have to be dealt with?
    Miss Pitt: I am aware of all those points. I think the hon. Member is aware that the executive council responsible in this matter has met the rural district council and the rural district council in turn has had meetings with the doctors. The position now is that the executive council is to review the matter in six months' time.
    Mr. Ainsley: I have had a communication from the executive council that it came to a decision last Thursday.
    Mr. Speaker: There is some difficulty in giving counter-information at Question Time.
    Mr. Ainsley: In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I shall raise this matter on the Adjournment at the earliest opportunity.

    Effects of Alcohol (Tablets)
    Mr. Gresham Cookeasked the Minister of Health whether he will refer the Soberette pill to the Poisons Board for advice as to whether such pills should be restricted for issue only on doctor's prescriptions.
    Miss Pitt: No, Sir.
    Mr. Gresham Cooke: Can nothing be done to stop the distribution of these pills and the stupid and misleading claims which give a false impression to the public? Is there nothing the Government can do?
    Miss Pitt: In my reply to my hon. Friend's Question last week, I said that there is no evidence to suggest that these tablets are medically harmful. Drugs which are limited under the poisons legislation to supply on prescription could all have serious effects unless taken in accordance with medical advice. That does not apply in this case.
    Sir H. Linstead: Has my hon. Friend seen the advertisements? Will she agree that what they do is to encourage the taking of alcohol before driving? In the circumstances, whether these tablets are technically poisonous or not, is it not important to have an objective assessment of their value and possible dangers? What can be done about it by the Ministry?
    Miss Pitt: I have seen the publicity. The question of the effect of taking these pills in relation to driving is not one for my Department to answer.

    X-Rays
    Dr. Strossasked the Minister of Health what is the average genetically significant dose of ionising rays received by the population as a result of medical X-rays, giving the figure in terms of a percentage of the natural background radiation per generation of 30 years; and how this compares with the figure that could be achieved if all hospitals improved to the standard of the best hospitals.
    Mr. Powell: It is estimated that in 1957 this was about 20 per cent. for all medical radiology, and that a reduction to 6 per cent. or less would be possible by improving techniques.
    Dr. Stross: Since this is a remarkable reduction, will the right hon. Gentleman tell us what he and his Department are doing to make certain that every hospital follows the techniques which are in use in the best of our hospitals?
    Mr. Powell: When the Adrian Report was published last year, I drew the attention of hospital authorities to the need to conform with the code of practice, and that code itself is being further improved in the light of the Adrian Report.

    Operations (Parents' Consent)
    Sir L. Ropnerasked the Minister of Health how many children are known to have died in Great Britain during 1960 through the refusal of their parents to consent to operations and blood transfusions.
    Mr. Powell: None, Sir.

    Rubella
    Mr. Goughasked the Minister of Health if he will make a statement on the effects of rubella during pregnancy; and if he will state approximately the number of new-born babies over a convenient recent period who have been born deaf or otherwise handicapped as a result of their mothers contracting this disease.
    Miss Pitt: A report published last year on children born between July, 1950, and December, 1952, to mothers who had rubella during pregnancy showed that four out of five were normal; 19 per cent. had some degree of deafness. I am sending my hon. Friend a copy.
    Mr. Gough: Does my hon. Friend agree that this innocent disease, more commonly known as German measles, has a most insidious effect? Does not the analysis made, which shows that 20 per cent. of children—which, after all, is another way of putting one out of five—suffer from deafness or another form of disability, indicate a very serious problem?
    Hon. Members: Hear, hear.
    Miss Pitt: Yes, it is one in five of the number coming under this particular test. The reaction of hon. Members made me think that my hon. Friend's point may have been misleading. It is important not to alarm mothers. The report of 1960 gave a more reassuring picture. It showed that the risk of congenital defects following rubella in pregnancy was less than had been feared. Many of the defects are now amenable to treatment.
    Mr. K. Robinson: While it is important not to be alarmist, is it not important also not to be complacent? Is it not a fact that rubella contracted during the first month of pregnancy leads to a very much higher incidence of abnormality, which has been estimated by some geneticists as high as 50 to 85 per cent.? In the circumstances, does the hon. Lady think that sufficient research is being done?
    Miss Pitt: Research is continuing in the matter. There is a Question about the medical aspects to be answered next.
    Mr. Goughasked the Minister of Health what steps he is taking to warn pregnant mothers of the dangers involved in coming into contact with cases of rubella; and whether he will now arrange for this to become a notifiable disease.
    Mr. Powell: I understand that attention is drawn to the nature of this hazard from time to time through the various channels of health education, and I have recently published the report of a special
    6
    inquiry, but I am advised that notifiability would not help.
    Mr. Gough: Is there close co-operation between my right hon. Friend's Department and the Ministry of Education? Is it not a fact that pregnant mothers are very often put into danger when visiting children in schools?
    Mr. Powell: I believe that special arrangements are in force in respect of teachers. Primarily, it is education by the local health authorities which can help in this matter. I am considering whether there is any further action I can take with them arising out of the report to which I have referred.
    Sir G. Nicholson: I hope I am not doing my right hon. Friend or his Department an injustice, but I feel that there is a slight hint of complacency here. Whether the number of cases be small or large, they represent personal tragedies of a high order. I hope that he will press on with whatever steps he thinks are possible.
    Mr. Powell: My hon. Friend does me an injustice if he thinks that I am complacent in this matter. It is important that mothers should be aware of the risk involved, especially, as the hon. Member for St. Pancras, North (Mr. K. Robinson) said, in the earlier weeks of pregnancy, and that they should take what steps are possible to avoid contact, seeking advice if they have reason to believe that contact has occurred.

    Population (Densities)
    Mrs. Butlerasked the Minister of Health what were the population densities of each county in England and Wales at the latest convenient date; and what changes in these densities are indicated by the 1961 census figures.
    Miss Pitt: As the Answer contains a number of figures, I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mrs. Butler: What arrangements is the Ministry making, following the publication of the Interim Census Report, for an urgent examination with the other Departments concerned of the health, housing, planning and employment problems involved in the excessive concentration of the population in south-east England?
    Miss Pitt: These are matters for the respective Departments concerned. In particular, the question of the movement of population is one for the Ministry of Housing and Local Government.
    Following are the figures:

    POPULATION DENSITIES 1951 AND 1961

    County (with any associated County Borough)

    Number of persons per acre

    1951 (Census)

    1961 (Census: provisional)

    ENGLAND

    Bedfordshire

    1·0

    1·3

    Berkshire

    0·9

    1·1

    Buckinghamshire

    0·8

    1·0

    Cambridge

    0·5

    0·6

    Cheshire

    1·9

    2·1

    Cornwall

    0·4

    0·4

    Cumberland

    0·3

    0·3

    Derbyshire

    1·3

    1·4

    Devon

    0·5

    0·5

    Dorset

    0·5

    0·5

    Durham

    2·3

    2·3

    Ely, Isle of

    0·4

    0·4

    Essex

    2·1

    2·3

    Gloucester

    1·2

    1·2

    Hampshire

    1·2

    1·4

    Herefordshire

    0·2

    0·2

    Hertfordshire

    1·5

    2·1

    Huntingdonshire

    0·3

    0·3

    Kent

    1·6

    1·7

    Lancashire

    4·3

    4·3

    Leicester

    1·2

    1·3

    Lincolnshire (Holland)

    0·4

    0·4

    Lincolnshire (Kesteven)

    0·3

    0·3

    Lincolnshire (Lindsey)

    0·5

    0·5

    London

    44·7

    42·6

    Middlesex

    15·3

    15·0

    Norfolk

    0·4

    0·4

    Northamptonshire

    0·6

    0·7

    Northumberland

    0·6

    0·6

    Nottinghamshire

    1·6

    1·7

    Oxfordshire

    0·6

    0·6

    Peterborough, Soke of

    1·2

    1·4

    Rutland

    0·2

    0·2

    Shropshire

    0·3

    0·3

    Somerset

    0·5

    0·6

    Staffordshire

    2·2

    2·3

    Suffolk, East

    0·6

    0·6

    Suffolk, West

    0·3

    0·3

    Surrey

    3·5

    3·8

    Sussex, East

    1·2

    1·3

    Sussex, West

    0·6

    1·0

    Warwickshire

    3·0

    3·2

    Westmorland

    0·1

    0·1

    Wight, Isle of

    1·0

    1·0

    Wiltshire

    0·4

    0·5

    Worcestershire

    1·2

    1·3

    Yorkshire, East Riding

    0·7

    0·7

    Yorkshire, North Riding

    0·4

    0·4

    Yorkshire, West Riding

    2·0

    2·0

    8

    County (with any associated County Borough)

    Number of persons per acre

    1951 (Census)

    1961 (Census: provisional)

    WALES

    Anglesey

    0·3

    0·3

    Brecknockshire

    0·1

    0·1

    Caernarvonshire

    0·3

    0·3

    Cardiganshire

    0·1

    0·1

    Carmarthenshire

    0·3

    0·3

    Denbighshire

    0·4

    0·4

    Flintshire

    0·9

    0·9

    Glamorganshire

    2·3

    2·3

    Merionethshire

    0·1

    0·1

    Monmouthshire

    1·2

    1·3

    Montgomeryshire

    0·1

    0·1

    Pembrokeshire

    0·2

    0·2

    Radnorshire

    0·1

    0·1

    Poisons
    Mr. Holtasked the Minister of Health if he is satisfied that the legislation relating to the carrying of scheduled poisons by representatives of the pharmaceutical industry is adequate for the protection of the public; what consideration he has given to the need for amending legislation; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Powell: If the hon. Member will let me know what difficulty he has in mind, I will consider it with my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary.
    Mr. Holt: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for that reply, but may I ask whether he is aware that many of these representatives have no special medical knowledge and that frequently these poisons are lost from the representatives' cars? Does he not think that this situation is rather unsatisfactory and that it should be looked into?
    Mr. Powell: I will consider that. The legislation, of course, does not relate at all to the carrying of poisons but to their sale or supply. But I will consider that point.

    Doctors and Dentists (Fines)
    Mr. Liptonasked the Minister of Health how many doctors and dentists have, in each of the past three years, had

    9
    their pay withheld for breach of duty under the National Health Acts; and what were the total sums involved.
    Mr. Powell: The figures are 86, 81 and 120; £3,941, £3,978 and £3,914.
    Mr. Lipton: I thank the Minister for that information, which will be very useful in connection with the Adjournment debate I have on Friday about naming guilty doctors and dentists. Pending that debate, will he confirm that although the names of these offending doctors and dentists are supposed to be secret, any newspaper that wants to publish their names is not breaking the law if it does so?
    Mr. Powell: It is not for me to say whether any law is broken by a newspaper doing this or doing that, but I am certainly at the disposal of the hon. Gentleman for information that might be of use to him in an Adjournment debate.

  HOSPITALS

    Day Treatment
    Mr. Thorpeasked the Minister of Health what plans he has for the increased provision of day treatment in hospitals, similar to the experiment being operated by the Chichester Hospital Management Committee at St. Richard's Hospital, Chichester.
    Miss Pitt: Advice on the day treatment of the elderly sick was given to hospital authorities in October, 1957: I am sending the hon. Member a copy.
    Mr. Thorpe: Would the hon. Lady agree that this is a very valuable form of treatment in that it allows elderly people to go home at night and for their relatives to look after them, which is a great saving in nursing staff? Is she satisfied that hospitals are experimenting sufficiently with this form of treatment?
    Miss Pitt: I agree with the first point made by the hon. Member, that it is valuable for the individual and cuts short the in-patient time in hospitals. The question of provision of this type is for the hospitals themselves. It is developing.

    St. Thomas's Hospital
    Sir H. Linsteadasked the Minister of Health if he will make a statement about the closing of the out-patient dispensary in the pharmaceutical department of St. Thomas's Hospital, London, because of the shortage of pharmacists on the staff.
    Mr. Powell: I understand that difficulty arose because several of the dispensing staff left simultaneously, but I am asking the board to arrange for the dispensary to be reopened with as little delay as possible.
    Sir H. Linstead: Is not this an example of a tendency in the hospital pharmaceutical service of which my right hon. Friend has had warning? Can my right hon. Friend give any indication of action being taken by his Ministry so to improve the conditions of service as to prevent this drift away from that part of the service?
    Mr. Powell: During the last year or so, the number of hospital pharmacists increased very sharply, and experience elsewhere suggests that the difficulties which arose at St. Thomas's were quite exceptional.
    Mr. Snow: Is the Minister aware that there is a developing problem here caused by the great demand in industry for qualified pharmacists, not only retail pharmacists but pharmacists in industry itself, and is there not a possibility that the provision being made in the pharmaceutical schools is just not adequate for the situation which is developing?
    Mr. Powell: There is the call from industry, and I believe that industry itself is finding considerable difficulty in recruiting all the people it needs. However, it is encouraging that there has been such a sharp recent increase in the number of hospital pharmacists.
    Mr. K. Robinson: Are there difficulties peculiar to the London area? My information is that this is by no means the only teaching hospital experiencing difficulty and, as the Minister knows, in the ordinary way teaching hospitals find it easier to recruit staff than do regional board hospitals.
    Mr. Powell: Obviously, there are special factors operating in the London area which may make the matter difficult, but this is the only hospital which

    11
    has found itself confronted with the acute and, I think, quite special problem which arose a month ago at St. Thomas's.

    Drugs (Purchase)
    Mr. K. Robinsonasked the Minister of Health why he has instructed hospital authorities to discontinue the purchase of all patented drugs from unlicensed sources, in view of the fact that he proposes to invite tenders centrally for only three groups of such drugs.
    Mr. Powell: Because it is better that the procedure should be applied centrally.
    Mr. Robinson: Do I take it from that reply that it is the Minister's intention to invite tenders for all the drugs which some hospital authorities have been buying from Continental sources in the past?
    Mr. Powell: I have not limited my action in advance to the three drugs for which I have asked for tenders, and, whenever I see reason to think that the procedure would be appropriate, I shall consider its application.
    Mr. Robinson: There are other groups of drugs which are being bought now. Is the Minister aware that he has now said that the action taken by individual hospital authorities was perfectly proper and within the terms of the Patents Act? In that case, why has he stopped them purchasing in advance of his taking centralised action himself?
    Mr. Powell: In the Government's view, this is the only appropriate way in which drugs could be purchased from unlicensed sources. In reply to the first part of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question, whenever it is brought to my attention that there is a case for applying Section 46, I shall consider it, without prejudice.
    Dr. Stross: Is the Minister aware that, of course, his method of buying drugs from unlicensed sources will give justice to the patent holders, for it assures them that they receive their royalties, and that it is a proper thing to do; but will he say why he included in the first three groups the drug called hydrochlorothiazide which has not yet been patented?
    Mr. Powell: Because it belongs to the same group as another drug which it
    12
    was desired to cover, and it was thought proper to call for tenders for both at the same time.

    Aldershot
    Sir E. Erringtonasked the Minister of Health on what date he received a letter from the Aldershot Borough Council in relation to the provision of a new general hospital; when he expects to be in a position to reply; and whether he will be able to give a date for the commencement of the building of this hospital.
    Mr. Powell: On 31st May, and a reply was sent on 7th June. I cannot yet say when this scheme can start.
    Sir E. Errington: Does my right hon. Friend realise that this hospital is to be built with a view to covering not only Aldershot but districts quite a considerable distance away in the surrounding neighbourhood?
    Mr. Powell: Yes. I share my hon. Friend's disappointment at not being able to include it in my list of central schemes which could be started by 1964–65. I must now look at schemes for later years in the context of the ten-year plan.

    Newcastle
    Mr. Greyasked the Minister of Health how many medical posts in the Newcastle Regional Hospital Board area remain unfilled; and how many posts have been vacant for longer than two months.
    Miss Pitt: Thirty-three and 24, excluding non-teaching hospital posts below registrar, for which the figures are not available.
    Mr. Grey: Does not the hon. Lady think that one of the main reasons why there are long waiting lists in the North-East is that the establishment is quite inadequate? Will she therefore make inquiries into this aspect to try to make the establishment fit the needs of the area?
    Miss Pitt: I will certainly make further inquiries in order to try to satisfy the hon. Gentleman, but on 31st March, 1960, which is the latest date for which we have figures, vacancies in the grades of registrar and below for Great Britain

    13
    averaged 9 per cent. The average for Newcastle was slightly below the Great Britain average, so by comparison it is slightly better off.
    Mr. Greyasked the Minister of Health how many psychiatrists are required in the Newcastle Regional Hospital Board area; and when he expects these doctors to be available.
    Miss Pitt: The Board has proposed to create four additional consultant posts. My right hon. Friend has approved two, which the Board expects to fill in the next two months.
    Mr. Grey: Is the hon. Lady aware of the widespread belief that there is a great shortage of psychiatrists and that they are being rationed out to every region? What steps are being taken to train more doctors of this kind?
    Miss Pitt: The hon. Gentleman is correct. There is a nation-wide shortage of consultant psychiatrists. That is why it is necessary to limit the posts in some areas. The numbers in posts in England and Wales increased by 19·5 per cent. between 1955 and 1960, and the corresponding increase in the Newcastle region was 33 per cent.

    Architects and Engineers
    Mr. Boydenasked the Minister of Health what additional recruitment of architectural and engineering staff he expects will be required by the hospital building programme in 1962–63, 1963–64 and 1964–65, respectively; and what steps are being taken by his Department to secure the necessary trained staff.
    Mr. Powell: This will depend upon the proportion of their work which hospital boards decide should be undertaken by their own staff in each year. Every opportunity is taken of publicising the scope and interest of this expanding field.
    Mr. Boyden: Has not the Minister had consultations with the appropriate education authorities to see what he can do to stimulate the training of architects, engineers, and so on? Within his own control, why does he not increase the number of apprentices articled to architects and engineers on the staff of regional hospitals?
    Mr. Powell: The latter part of the question is one for regional hospital
    14
    boards, which are the employers. They are preparing the plans which will involve this increased demand. In general, I think that one of the many advantages which flow from a clear long-term plan will be the evident demonstration of the need for architects in this field.
    Dr. Stross: Does the Minister agree that at present the lack of architects and engineering staff constitutes one of the serious bottlenecks in his own programme?
    Mr. Powell: Yes.

    Birmingham Maternity Hospital
    Mr. Denis Howellasked the Minister of Health if he is aware that the governors of the United Teaching Hospitals have decided to reduce the number of confinement cases at the Birmingham Maternity Hospital by 500 a year; what consultations took place with the Birmingham Regional Hospital Board before this decision was taken; and if he will make a statement.
    Miss Pitt: I am informed that the reduction aimed at is about 300. It would not be in the interest of the hospital service to disclose communications between boards.
    Mr. Howell: Is the hon. Lady aware that that is a very disquieting reply? One of the very great difficulties in the hospital service, particularly in the Birmingham area, is the complete lack of liaison between the governors of teaching hospitals and the Birmingham Regional Hospital Board and the hospital management committees? Does she not think that to take this action unilaterally, whether it be 300 or 500—some of us were told in the first place that it was to be 500—is an act of social irresponsibility? Will the Minister take some steps to get greater co-ordination in these matters?
    Miss Pitt: No. I cannot agree with the hon. Gentleman that this is an act of social irresponsibility. It was because the board of governors feels responsible for this maternity hospital—which, as the hon. Gentleman knows as well as I do, takes the difficult cases—and in order to allow it to cater for emergencies that it felt it necessary to take this step.
    Mr. K. Robinson: Does not the hon. Lady appreciate that it is quite impossible for a regional hospital board to carry out its planning responsibilities unless there is the closest possible liaison with boards of governors? Is she aware that this liaison is certainly nonexistent in the Birmingham region referred to by my hon. Friend?
    Miss Pitt: The answer to the hon. Gentleman's first point is "Yes", but I do not agree with the second one.
    Mr. Howell: I beg to give notice that I shall raise this matter on the Adjournment.

    Teaching Hospital, Chelsea
    Mr. M. Stewartasked the Minister of Health, in view of the effect of his proposals for a post-graduate medical school in Chelsea on St. Luke's Hospital and Western Hospital, what provision will be made for the future care of elderly and chronic sick patients in the Fulham, Chelsea, and Kensington neighbourhood.
    Mr. K. Robinsonasked the Minister of Health which existing postgraduate medical schools will be incorporated into the proposed new postgraduate teaching hospital in Chelsea; how many beds it will contain; if he will define the site of the buildings to be erected; what are his intentions regarding the sites which this plan will make redundant; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Powell: I would ask the hon. Members to await a full statement on this matter which I intend to make shortly.
    Mr. Stewart: Does the Minister remember that I wrote to him some weeks ago about this matter? I received no reply until I tabled a Question, when a reply came saying that I would like to see a copy of a letter he had sent to certain other hon. Members, but in fact he omitted to enclose such a copy? [Laughter.] I do not regard this as a laughing matter. Does the Minister realise that there is a great deal of anxiety in Fulham about the shrinking accommodation for chronic and elderly sick patients? We regard this as a very serious matter.
    Mr. Powell: I apologise for the clerical oversight, which I will have put right at the earliest moment. I quite understand the importance of this matter, both generally and locally, and that is why I think it right that a statement should be made at an early moment.
    Mr. Robinson: A statement has already been made by the regional board concerned. Can the Minister indicate when "shortly" will be?
    Mr. Powell: Not later than the end of the month, and it might be a little before that.

    North Staffordshire
    Mr. Swinglerasked the Minister of Health what improvements in the hospital service in north Staffordshire are at present being undertaken or planned.
    Mr. Powell: A new casualty department and a new outpatient department at the North Staffordshire Royal Infirmary and a new maternity unit at the City General Hospital, as well as a number of smaller schemes.
    Mr. Swingler: In view of controversy in the recent past, can the Minister tell us whether the priorities for the improvement of the hospital service in North Staffordshire are now agreed between his Department and local representatives? Is proper account being taken of the fact that north Staffordshire has been worse off for a long time past in comparison with other areas of similar size?
    Mr. Powell: The particulars I gave in my Answer are those of schemes which are actually in hand, which I thought was the object of the hon. Gentleman's Question. I am considering the long-term development programme, which has been submitted to me by the Birmingham Regional Board, in the light of circumstances in North Staffordshire.
    Dr. Stross: Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that from the long-term planning point of view great care should be taken to ensure that the priorities are correct? Some of us are a little uncertain as to whether enough time has yet elapsed strictly to formalise them.
    Mr. Powell: Yes. I think that it will be some months before this study can be completed. One of the main purposes of such an operation is to try to get the priorities right over a considerable period.

    Nurses (Recruitment)
    Mr. Denis Howellasked the Minister of Health if he is aware of growing concern about the lack of recruitment to the nursing profession; and what action he intends taking to safeguard the future of the hospital service.
    Miss Pitt: More nurses are employed in the hospital service than ever before. My right hon. Friend supports the recruitment efforts of hospital authorities by giving widespread publicity to nursing as a career.
    Mr. Howell: Is the hon. Lady aware that the administrators of many hospitals, who are looking well ahead into the future, are extremely concerned that pro rata to the population, and particularly pro rata to the number of school-leavers, the number of new entrants to the nursing profession is very unsatisfactory and in certain areas—to be specific, in certain hospitals dealing with the chronic and mentally sick—is likely to reach a state of crisis? We have the opportunity with the bulge in the number of school-leavers to do something dramatic. I ask the Minister to examine this problem and consider initiating a nation-wide campaign to get young suitable girls into the nursing profession.
    Miss Pitt: There is continuous publicity through the media of the Press, television, radio and all the journals; posters are available; exhibitions are held. I agree that it is important to attract a number of school-leavers into the nursing profession, but there is another aspect. Happily last year the number of part-time nurses rose considerably. We think that a special effort directed towards the trained woman who can come back part-time might also help.
    Mr. F. Harris: Is my hon. Friend aware that this is a very worrying problem indeed? Last Saturday morning I went over a nursing home in which half
    18
    the beds could not be used because of the shortage of nurses. This is a serious matter. Will she do everything in her power to alleviate the position?
    Miss Pitt: Yes. If my hon. Friend really means that it was a nursing home, it would not come under the National Health Service.
    Mr. Hamilton: Is the hon. Lady aware that this kind of publicity will be of little effect if she does not take the initiative in seeing that the nurses are paid adequately? This seems to me, and to many others who are interested, to be the crux of the matter. Will not the Parliamentary Secretary and her Department take the initiative to see that these people get paid adequately for their wonderful work?
    Miss Pitt: As I have explained before, this is a matter for the nurses' and midwives' Whitley Council. There was a considerable improvement in 1959, both in pay and conditions, and there was a modest increase in pay last December.

    South-East Durham
    Mr. Shinwellasked the Minister of Health whether he intends to provide a new general hospital in south-east Durham; and whether the new town of Peterlee will be considered for its location in view of its suitability for this purpose.
    Mr. Powell: A new general hospital is to be built at Stockton-on-Tees. There is no present intention of building a hospital at Peterlee.
    Mr. Shinwell: Is the Minister acquainted with the geography of the district? Is he aware that Stockton is 20 miles away; that the facilities at Sunderland and West Hartlepool are most inadequate; that the population of the Easington district is over 80,000, and that the target population for the new town, Peterlee, is 30,000? Does not that necessitate a general hospital?
    Mr. Powell: I am aware of the desirability of the improvement of the hospital facilities serving the area, but the prospective population of Peterlee would not form the basis for a general hospital of the appropriate size.

    North-East Metropolitan Region
    Mr. Sorensenasked the Minister of Health what is the approximate proportion of nurses and domestic staff to private fee-paying patients and to ordinary patients respectively in hospitals within the North-East Metropolitan Region compared with other regions; and whether in that region the number of part-time trained nurses has increased during the past two years.
    Miss Pitt: I regret that the information requested in the first part of the Question is not available. The Answer to the second part is "Yes".
    Mr. Sorensen: Does not the Parliamentary Secretary think it rather necessary to get this information? Could she not initiate investigations to see what information is available to answer not only my request but the request of many other people? On the second point, is she satisfied, seeing that we are now bound to have a very large number of part-time nurses, that everything is done to consider domestic circumstances?
    Miss Pitt: Without considerable expenditure and effort, we could not get individual figures of the allocation of nurses to private beds. In fact, I wonder whether it would serve any useful purpose because, in general, the same nurses undertake duties at pay beds and National Health Service beds. I agree that it is important to consider the domestic circumstances of part-time nurses; it is for individual matrons, of course, to try to accommodate them in arranging the rota of duties, and matrons are well aware of that.
    Mr. Sorensen: Returning to the hon. Lady's reply to the first part of my Question, could she not at least make one or two sample investigations into the circumstances at particular hospitals? I am well aware of the difficulties, but I feel that there will be a tendency in certain hospitals to give more service to patients in pay beds than to those in National Health Service beds.
    Miss Pitt: I will certainly inquire as to whether it is possible to do any sampling, but I would be surprised if the answer showed anything different from what I have suggested.

    Voluntary Mental Patients
    Mr. Sorensenasked the Minister of Health what information he has to show the beneficial or the adverse consequences ensuing from the increase in the number of voluntary mental patients; and, approximately, what is the number or percentage of those patients who curtail such treatment against medical advice.
    Mr. Powell: There is wide agreement that the removal of unnecessary restrictions on psychiatric patients is beneficial to them. I regret that the information asked for in the second part of the Question is not available.
    Mr. Sorensen: In this case, also, does not the Minister think it worth finding out the information I seek? Is he quite satisfied about the release of patients with psychopathic tendencies in present circumstances?
    Mr. Powell: On the first part of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question, I do not think that any purpose will be served by doing as he asks, because, of course, many of these people would not be able to be compulsorily detained. The duties of review and so on laid down by the Mental Health Act do impose on those carrying them out the duty of taking into account the risks involved.
    Mr. Iremonger: Is my right hon. Friend aware of the very serious implications of the question asked by the hon. Member for Leyton (Mr. Sorensen)? Is he aware, that, for example, Ronald Derek Sowle, who was charged on 27th April with murdering a 17-year-old girl in Bristol, had just discharged himself from custody in circumstances in which he was, in fact, detainable under the Mental Deficiency Act; and that if we get this wrong and the new Act is wrongly administered the public will lose confidence in the new Act?
    Mr. Powell: I am afraid that I must not refer to the specific matter in my hon. Friend's supplementary question because that is sub judice, but, in general, I recognise that attention to security must be the price one pays for the opportunity to carry out a liberal and enlightened policy.

    Road Casualties (Treatment Charge)
    Miss Vickersasked the Minister of Health if he will require the regional hospital boards to arrange for notices to be placed in the out-patient departments of hospitals stating the amount that may be charged to casualties under the Road Traffic Act of 1934, and informing those who hold accident insurance policies that they can make a claim for a refund on the company concerned.
    Mr. Powell: The emergency treatment charge is payable by the vehicle user, not by casualties as such. I cannot advise patients of their rights against insurance companies.
    Miss Vickers: Then why is the actual patient quite often asked to pay 12s. 6d. before he leaves the hospital?
    Mr. Powell: There is no right to ask anyone but the vehicle user to pay 12s. 6d. If my hon. Friend has a case in mind I shall he delighted to look at it.
    Mr. H. Hynd: Is it not worth while reconsidering this charge, which is made at a very awkward time and is very much resented?
    Mr. Powell: Yes, Sir. In logic, I think that this charge is probably not entirely consistent with legislation since it was first imposed, but it does, of course, involve legislation to alter it.

  LAOS
  Mr. P. Noel-Bakerasked the Lord Privy Seal whether he will make a statement about a cease-fire in Laos, and about the proposed 14 nation Conference to be held in Geneva on 12th May.
  Mr. Healeyasked the Lord Privy Seal if he will make a further statement on the current negotiations for a settlement in Laos.
  The Lord Privy Seal (Mr. Edward Heath): The Conference met this morning for the first time since 6th June. We and our friends had asked for a suspension of meetings in order to consider the situation arising from the Pathet Lao attack on the fortified Government position at Phadong.
  The Phadong attack raised, in acute form, the question of the observance of
  22
  the cease-tire in Laos, about which the parties concerned exchanged statements of understanding on 13th May. We have for some time been trying to secure the agreement of the Soviet Government to the sending of new instructions to the International Control Commission, which would make clear its responsibility for investigating all suspected breaches of the cease-fire.
  My noble Friend went to Geneva yesterday and was able to get agreement that the Conference should meet today. This agreement followed a message from the Co-Chairman calling upon the parties in Laos to co-operate with the International Commission in its work of supervising the cease-fire.
  Mr. Noel-Baker: In view of the great obscurity of Press reports about what is actually happening in Laos, would the Lord Privy Seal consider asking the International Commission to make an interim report at once about what is happening so that the public may be properly informed on the matter?
  Mr. Heath: The Control Commission has made a number of reports to the two Co-Chairmen. I will see whether it is possible for any of that material to be published.
  Mr. Healey: While we appreciate the efforts of Her Majesty's Government to keep this Conference going, will the right hon. Gentleman convey to the Soviet Government, and other participants, the widespread feeling in this House and in the country that we must regard the success of this Conference as a test of the possibility of reaching general agreement with Communist Governments on the possibility of co-existence?
  Mr. Heath: I am sure that that is the case.
  Mr. A. Henderson: Would the Lord Privy Seal not agree that, according to the B.B.C.'s correspondent in Laos, the Control Commission has been immobile and impotent? Is that because of the shortage of observers or because of obstacles which have been put in the way of the Commission in carrying out its responsibilities?
  Mr. Heath: The reason is entirely because the Pathet Lao were unwilling to

  23
  allow the Commission to go into the areas it controls, for the purposes of inspecting the observance of the cease fire.

  MUSCAT AND OMAN (TREATY OF SIB)
  Mr. P. Noel-Bakerasked the Lord Privy Seal whether he will now publish the text of the Treaty of Sib between the Sultan of Muscat and the Imam of Oman, in view of the fact that it was negotiated with the assistance of the British representative in Muscat and was initialled by him.
  Mr. Heath: No, Sir.
  Mr. Noel-Baker: As Her Majesty's Government had special responsibilities for the negotiation of this Treaty, and as they have twice used British troops against the Imam of Oman in recent years, and in view of the fact that a settlement has still not been reached with the Imam of Oman, would it not be desirable for the House to know just what were the terms of the Treaty on which the Imam's rights and claims are based?
  Mr. Heath: I must make it clear—as I tried to do once before in answering the right hon. Gentleman—that the British Government were not responsible for the negotiation of this agreement. In fact, the British Political Agent was responsible for bringing the parties together but, thereafter, they carried on their own discussions and they reached agreement between themselves.
  As far as the settlement in Oman is concerned, at the moment, of course, there is law and order there and peace and quiet. An offer which I described fully to the right hon. Gentleman was made to the Imam and his friends to return to Muscat and Oman, but, unfortunately, those negotiations broke down.
  Mr. Healey: Is it not the case that both the juridical legitimacy and the political wisdom of British military intervention on behalf of the Sultan in Oman is bound to depend very much on the Sultan's rights in Oman? Until this House and the British people know
  24
  exactly what are the Sultan's rights as defined in the Treaty, there will be grave doubts about the wisdom of Her Majesty's Government's policy in this respect.
  Mr. Heath: The question of publicity for this document is for the Sultan and not for the British Government.
  Mr. Noel-Baker: But since the Treaty was made on our initiative and since we have conducted the foreign relations of the Sultan for a long time, would it not really be desirable that we should know what is the text of the Treaty? Is it not a fact that the Treaty says, in Article 4, that the Government of the Sultan shall not interfere in the internal affairs of the territory of Oman? If so, will the Government, in order to maintain peace there, negotiate for a settlement on that Article 4?
  Mr. Heath: Naturally, I cannot refer to specific articles in the Treaty without a detailed Question before me. The British Government have never been responsible for the external relations of the Sultan of Muscat and Oman. On specific occasions he has referred matters to the British Government, but we ale not responsible for their external relations.

  ANGOLA
  Mr. G. M. Thomsonasked the Lord Privy Seal if he will state, with reference to the recent meeting at the Foreign Office of British representatives from West and Central African countries, what discussions took place about British policy at the United Nations towards events in Angola.
  Mr. Heath: The proceedings to which the hon. Gentleman refers were confidential.
  Mr. Thomson: While welcoming the fact that this meeting took place, because it is, I think, the first of its kind, is the Lord Privy Seal aware that these efforts to co-ordinate and improve relations between this country and the African countries will be completely neutralised by the kind of vote that Britain cast in the Security Council, when Britain abstained on a resolution calling on Portugal to desist from her present

  25
  policies in Angola? For Britain, together with France, to abstain on this resolution—while the nine other members of the Council voted for it—does us immense harm.
  Mr. Heath: There are other questions on the Order Paper about this particular item which the hon. Gentleman mentions. This was a conference of British representatives in this area, and from time to time we hold other conferences of this nature, for example, the Eden Hall one in Singapore for our representatives in the Far East. I am sure that these conferences will not be completely beneficial unless they are completely confidential.
  Mr. Biggs-Davison: Without disclosing anything that may be confidential, can the Lord Privy Seal say what is being done at the United Nations or otherwise to prevent the former Belgian Congo being used as a centre for further attacks on Angola?
  Mr. Heath: That, of course, is a much wider question.
  Mr. Manuelasked the Lord Privy Seal what additional grant has been made to the funds of the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees for the assistance of refugees now arriving in Northern Rhodesia from Angola.
  Mr. Dugdaleasked the Lord Privy Seal whether Her Majesty's Government will propose in the United Nations the setting up of a famine relief fund for refugees from Angola.
  Mr. Godber: Angolan refugees have been reported to be in the former Belgian Congo and the former French Congo. I understand that both the United Nations and the League of Red Cross Societies and other voluntary agencies are taking active steps to assist them. I have no reports of refugees from Angola having entered Northern Rhodesia.
  Mr. Manuel: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there is now definite evidence that a number of refugees from Angola are arriving in Northern Rhodesia? Would he try to get some evidence of the numbers arriving so that we can have a more definite picture? Does he not think that we could give more tangible evidence of our desire to help
  26
  in the refugee problem wherever it arises by supporting it with what funds we are able to give and by doing something about the particular case referred to in my Question?
  Mr. Godber: As to the question of refugees entering Northern Rhodesia, I have made most careful inquiries and I am assured that there is no evidence of any refugees; but there may be a confusion here because I am told that for many years there have been immigrants from the Mawiko tribe entering Rhodesia from Angola, but even this has slackened off. There is no real evidence of refugees in that area.
  On the general question, steps are being taken by these bodies to which I have referred and, so far as I am aware, there is in fact no serious difficulty at the moment.
  Mr. Dugdale: May I ask two questions? First, can the Congo Famine Relief Fund be used to help these refugees? Secondly, can anything be done to help those now in Angola who are suffering from famine?
  Mr. Godber: On the first specific point, the answer would be "no". Without fresh authority the existing fund cannot be made available for this purpose, but there are these voluntary funds of which use is at present being made. So far as I understand, there was no reference to this in the debate in the Security Council. Of course, had it been brought up, authority could, no doubt, have been given for those funds to have been extended for this purpose.
  Mr. Lagden: Has my hon. Friend any information about the truth or otherwise of the rumour concerning the killing of ministers of the Church in Angola in recent weeks?
  Mr. Godber: I am afraid that goes beyond the Question.
  Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member must not ask the Minister questions about rumours which he did not instigate.
  Mr. Healey: Is it not the case that the flow of refugees into Angola from surrounding territories is bound to increase so long as the Portuguese authorities continue to deal with political problems by a policy of

  27
  indiscriminate massacre of the Africans? This being the case, is it not unfortunate that the Government failed to support the Security Council motion asking the Portuguese Government to cease this policy of repression?
  Mr. Godber: That matter goes far beyond this Question. There are on the Order Paper other Questions to which it would be more appropriate.
  Mr. Hayman: Will the Joint Under-Secretary take into account the fact that I have today received a telegram from Baptist, Congregational and Methodist ministers in Falmouth and district which reads:
  "Portuguese massacre of Angolans must be stopped"?
  Will the hon. Gentleman do something?
  Mr. Speaker: That does not arise on this Question and, therefore, it would be out of order for the Minister to reply to that supplementary question.
  Mr. Dugdale: Did I hear the hon. Gentleman aright? Did he say that it was impossible for the Famine Relief Fund in the Congo to be used for Angola refugees even if they are in the Congo? If so, it seems very extraordinary.
  Mr. Godber: I beg pardon. I thought the right hon. Gentleman was referring to the position in Angola. If they are Angolan refugees fresh authority should be sought to cover this point.
  Mr. Manuel: Could the hon. Gentleman say whether or not the High Commissioner has enough funds to cover this problem which is now intruding itself in the Congo and elsewhere?
  Mr. Godber: I understand he has enough funds. Half-a-million dollars are allocated for this fund. I am not aware what proportion there is left but I think a substantial proportion is available.

  CONGO (MR. LUMUMBA)
  Mr. Russellasked the Lord Privy Seal what information he has received through the United Nations, following their inquiry into the circumstances leading up to Mr. Lumumba's death, regarding a letter sent by Mr. Lumumba on 15th September, 1960, to the Presidents of each provincial government in the
  28
  Congo except Katanga; and if he will publish this letter in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
  Mr. Godber: The document to which my hon. Friend refers was published as an Annex to the Report of the United Nations Conciliation Commission for the Congo. A copy of the Report is in the Library of the House.

  GIBRALTAR (SPANISH RESTRICTIONS)
  Mr. Jegerasked the Lord Privy Seal what discussions he has had with members of the Spanish Government about their restrictions in relation to Gibraltar.
  Mr. Doddsasked the Lord Privy Seal (1) what progress has been made in negotiations with Spain in removing restrictions on the entry of Spanish nationals and other foreign nationals as visitors to Gibraltar by the land frontier, and also in removing restrictions on the entry of Spanish labour into Gibraltar;
  (2) what progress has been made in negotiations with Spain in removing restrictions on commercial relations with Gibraltar; and what has been the result of efforts made for the resumption of normal cultural and sporting relations between Spain and Gibraltar.
  Mr. Heath: I have nothing to add to the answers given by myself on 5th June and by my hon. Friend the Colonial Under-Secretary on 6th June.
  Mr. Jeger: Is the Lord Privy Seal not aware that lots of things have been happening on this frontier since those discussions took place and that, for example, a ballet company which was invited by Gibraltar to perform there was refused permission to leave Spain to perform at a music festival in Gibraltar? Will the Lord Privy Seal impress on the Spanish Government the fact that if they want to improve relations with Britain, a more civilised way of behaving by them towards their nearest neighbour might induce us to be more friendly towards them?
  Mr. Heath: I will look into the point that the hon. Gentleman has raised and would be pleased to receive any other information he cares to give me.
  Mr. Dodds: Is the right hon. Gentleman saying that on the points I have put in my two Questions no progress has been made? If, indeed, progress has been made, what is it? At the same time as he is looking into this case of the Spanish ballet company, does it surprise the Lord Privy Seal to know that the Spanish authorities will not let Spanish football teams play in Gibraltar and labour permits are not being granted and Spaniards are left unemployed rather than being allowed to work in Gibraltar? Why cannot they allow Spanish nationals and other visitors to go to Gibraltar? How can we be friendly with a country like that when they are playing such a shoddy trick on a most loyal part of the British Commonwealth?
  Mr. Heath: I am aware of the points that the hon. Gentleman has raised. The Foreign Secretary when he was in Madrid included these matters in the subjects of his conversations, but it is too short a time to expect action since then. My noble Friend is keeping in touch with the Spanish Foreign Minister. What is equally clear is that these things will not be improved by being hostile to the Spanish Government. We must try to improve them by keeping the relations good.
  Mr. Dodds: Does the Lord Privy Seal not understand that friends of Gibraltar have been asking for this information for four, five or six years and have been persuaded to keep quiet on the ground that diplomacy would be the better course. Is the Lord Privy Seal aware that this has all failed and that he will hear a lot more about the matter if something is not done?
  Mr. Heath: I am fully aware of the views of Gibraltar on these matters, which we share. The Governor has discussed this with us, and other members of the Gibraltar Council have been here as well.

  FISHING VESSEL "RED CRUSADER" (INCIDENT)
  Mr. Hector Hughesasked the Lord Privy Seal what decision he has now reached following his study of the relevant facts regarding claiming compensation from the Government of Denmark
  30
  for the owners, officers and crew of the Aberdeen shipping vessel "Red Crusader" for the damage done when that ship was fired on and taken prisoner by a Danish Government vessel off the Faroe Islands last May.
  Mr. Heath: I cannot reach any conclusion as regards the claim against the Danish Government for compensation until the facts have been established. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland has received a report of this incident following the return of the "Red Crusader" and the British naval vessels involved to Aberdeen. From this and from the information given us by the Danish Government it is clear that there are differences as to the facts of the case. We have been in touch with the Danish Government about this and they have now proposed that a commission of inquiry be appointed to ascertain the facts. We agree with the Danish Government that an impartial enquiry into the facts is desirable, but the terms of reference, the composition of the commission and so on have still to be agreed between the two Governments.
  Mr. Hughes: Do not the relevant facts referred to in my Question indicate that the rights and responsibilities of two friendly nations with regard to fishing have become unnecessarily complicated owing to the non-existence of a Minister of Cabinet rank devoted entirely to fishing problems? Will the Lord Privy Seal bring this aspect of the matter before the Cabinet with a view to the appointment of such a Minister? Does he not realise that the negative and unconstructive answer which he has just given reinforces the view that I am putting to him?
  Mr. Heath: This is far from being a negative and unconstructive answer. It is an answer which accepts the Danish proposal that there should be an impartial inquiry into the whole of the facts of this case. We all deeply regret that this incident should have created tension between our two countries, We all agree on the importance of the fishing industry, but I do not think that this incident could have been avoided by the appointment of a Cabinet Minister responsible for the fishing industry.
  Lady Tweedsmuir: In view of the fact that this incident has now involved the Governments concerned, would my right hon. Friend consider making approaches to those concerned that the facilities of the International Court at The Hague might be extended in order that there might be some international court to which all these fishing disputes could automatically be referred, because they are likely to happen again in the future? While welcoming the inquiry very much as possibly a means of preserving good British-Danish relations, may I ask my right hon. Friend whether he will say, once the inquiry is complete and supposing that further procedures are necessary, if it is possible to adopt my suggestion, as this incident involves the Governments, to refer this matter to the International Court at The Hague?
  Mr. Heath: On the last point, perhaps my hon. Friend would give me notice of that rather technical question and I will look into it. On the question of arranging for the International Court to hear disputes over territorial waters, it is true that most nations are very jealous of their juridical rights over territorial waters, but I will certainly look at that point.

  NUCLEAR TESTS
  Mrs. Butlerasked the Lord Privy Seal if he will make a statment with regard to the progress of the discussions at Geneva on nuclear tests.
  Mr. A. Hendersonasked the Lord Privy Seal whether he will make a further statement on the Geneva Tests Conference; and whether he will publish a White Paper containing the Draft Treaty offered to the Soviet Government.
  Mr. Godber: Since I informed the House about progress in the Nuclear Tests Conference on 18th May, the United States and United Kingdom Delegations have put forward further new proposals intended to bridge the gap between the Soviet and Western positions on the number of on-site inspections to be conducted annually. These proposals, like the other constructive proposals made in recent months by the Western Delegations, have evoked no favourable response from the Soviet Union.
  32
  The Western draft Treaty tabled on 18th April is contained in the records of the Conference for April, which are now available in the Library of the House. This text will also be available, in more convenient form, as a White Paper, which I hope will be laid in a few days' time.
  Mrs. Butler: Does the Minister realise what an unforgivable crime it would be to the ordinary people who suffer the effects of fall-out and to whom we are responsible if any of the three Powers concerned used the excuse of a breakdown at Geneva to resume tests? Would the hon. Gentleman urge Her Majesty's Government to give an unqualified pledge that they wil regard themselves as morally bound by the moratorium, whatever happens at Geneva, and use all their influence to persuade the Americans and the Russians to do the same?
  Mr. Godber: It is because of the great seriousness of these matters that we have pressed and are pressing in every way we can to get an agreement on this matter. I think Her Majesty's Government and the Americans have done all they possibly can and will continue to do so to get that agreement. We share the feelings of the hon. Lady and will certainly endeavour to get an agreement.
  Mr. Henderson: Can the hon. Gentleman comment on the statement in the recent Soviet memorandum published this morning, in which it was proposed that the question of a test Treaty should be deferred until it can be merged into the general disarmament negotiations in the autumn? Can we take it from the Minister that it is still the policy of Her Majesty's Government to continue their efforts at Geneva in this conference to secure the agreement that is contained in the draft Treaty?
  Mr. Godber: Yes, I assure the right hon. and learned Gentleman that we are prepared and, indeed, anxious to continue in every way possible with the present negotiations. We have made it abundantly clear in the House on a number of occasions—and I think it has been made clear from the Opposition Front Bench, too—that we feel strongly that it would provide the best climate possible for satisfactory disarmament negotiations if we could get success at this Conference.
  Mr. S. Silverman: Is not the real stumbling block the question of the Russian preference for a three-man control instead of a single control? While one appreciates the difficulties involved in that proposal, do the Government really think that these difficulties are of such a nature that they would justify a breaking off of the negotiations and the failure to reach an agreement rather than trying to reach any accommodation on this point?
  Mr. Godber: That is a very important matter, but I would remind the House that this is a new point brought in by the Russians at a very recent moment. They have sought to bring this in for the Administrator, not for the Control Commission. In the Control Commission there is provision for the Russians, the West and the independent nations to be represented, which we believe is the right way. But we also believe that it is right to have a single Administrator as we do in the United Nations.
  Mr. Healey: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that many of us on this side of the House feel that there would be no chance of stopping nuclear tests for good unless we could get international agreement in which all countries take part, and that for this reason we deeply deplore the fact that the Soviet Government at the eleventh hour have raised an entirely new point which threatens to wreck the whole negotiations?
  Mr. Godber: I am glad to have that assurance.

DARTMOOR PRISON (INCIDENT)
Miss Bacon (by Private Notice)Miss Bacon (by Private Notice) asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will make a statement about yesterday's disturbance at Dartmoor.
The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. R. A. Butler): During the showing of the film "The Blue Lamp" at Dartmoor Prison on Sunday afternoon, 11th June, a fight broke out between some prisoners, as a result of which one prisoner died, three other prisoners have sustained injuries, and two prison officers were also injured, though not seriously.
34
This was an isolated incident and the prison was and remains generally quiet. As the incident may result in criminal proceedings, it would be improper for me to comment further at this stage.
Miss Bacon: I should like to express appreciation of the work of the prison officers, who are having to work in extremely difficult conditions. While recognising the difficulty of the right hon. Gentleman in that criminal proceedings might be taken, I should like him to answer one or two questions which, perhaps, would not infringe the rules of order.
First, who chooses the films which are shown to the prisoners? Would not the right hon. Gentleman agree that "The Blue Lamp", which, I understand, deals with the killing of a policeman, is, to say the least, a particularly provocative film to be shown in a prison to prisoners? At any rate, it was at least in very bad taste, having regard to the happenings of this last week.
Secondly, since this is one of a series of recent outbreaks of violence in prisons, does not the right hon. Gentleman think that the situation is so urgent and serious that he should give his immediate attention to it, in conjunction with the Prison Commissioners? Would not he agree to the setting up of an inquiry into the present state of the whole of our prison service?
Mr. Butler: I should like to support what the hon. Lady has said about the service rendered by the prison officers. I thank her for what she has said. They are doing an excellent job under difficult circumstances.
The answer to her point about who chooses the films is that they are chosen by the prison authorities. If there is any anxiety on the subject, I will certainly investigate the manner in which they are chosen.
This was an isolated incident. That is all the information that I have up-to-date. I do not think that it was connected with the film. I am inhibited from saying any more by the fact that these criminal proceedings are being put in train, but I have already reviewed the general position of prisons with the Prison Commissioners. I am keeping the situation under review in view of the

35
largely increased prison population, which is what is causing the trouble.
Mr. Thorpe: Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us how under-staffed Dartmoor is and how many extra warders he wants to bring the staff up to full strength? Is not the real moral of this that it is about time that we paid prison officers the proper rate for the job?
Mr. Butler: The latter point is under consideration, and I think that it is in hand. I should require notice before answering the question about the exact numbers.
Mr. Mayhew: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, in spite of the appalling buildings at Dartmoor, this is an exceptionally well-governed and well-run prison? However, can he tell us when the new buildings will be started and this prison will be closed?
Mr. Butler: Again, I should want notice of the question about the exact dates, but I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for drawing attention to the fact that Dartmoor, in its old buildings, is very well run. It is a prison in which prisoners are sleeping only one in a cell. Therefore, one of the main difficulties of prison administration does not arise there. We are starting on the new buildings, which will mean a new history for Dartmoor.
Mr. Woodburn: Would the right hon. Gentleman consider the possibility of relieving the numbers of the prison population by selecting a large number of prisoners who are not violent and putting them out to work on the land, or some other place, on probation, and not keeping them shut up when that is not necessary?
Mr. Butler: We already have the hostel scheme at Bristol and elsewhere, which is working very well. We already have parties going out of prisons and open prisons. I will, however, bear in mind any constructive suggestions.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Ordered,
That this day Business other than the Business of Supply may be taken before Ten o'clock.—[Mr. R. A. Butler.]

ORDERS OF THE DAY

  SUPPLY
  [16TH ALLOTTED DAY]
  Considered in Committee.
  [Sir GORDON TOUCHE in the Chair]

  CIVIL ESTIMATES AND ESTIMATES FOR REVENUE DEPARTMENTS, 1961–62
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  That a further sum, not exceeding £40, be granted to Her Majesty, towards defraying the charges for the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1962, for the following services connected with Agriculture in England and Wales, namely:

  Civil Estimates, 1961–62

  £

  Class VIII, Vote 1, Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food

  10

  Class VIII, Vote 2, Agricultural and Food Grants and Subsidies

  10

  Class VIII, Vote 3, Agricultural and Food Services

  10

  Class VIII, Vote 10, Forestry Commission

  10

  Total

  £40

  AGRICULTURE, ENGLAND AND WALES
  3.35 p.m.
  Mr. Geoffrey de Freitas: Because of the increasing problems facing the industry, we decided that we would devote this Supply day to a debate on agriculture. My hon. Friends and I will cover a fairly wide field in our criticisms and questions, and what we do at the end of the day will depend on the course which the debate takes. It would, however, be unrealistic to discuss the problems of the industry in England and Wales without discussing the European Common Market.
  This would be so even if the Government had given some indication of policy, but it is even more so in view of the apparent disagreements between Ministers. This our duty, as the Opposition, to ask for some indication of Government policy. As the Farmer and Stock-breeder put it—I quote the Farmer and Stock-breeder because it is certainly the most serious and respected journal in the agricultural world—
  "Confusion reigns at Westminster over the Government's attitude to the Common Market"

  37
  Accordingly, I hope that we shall have some indication of Government policy on this the greatest political issue of our time. It must surely be—
  Sir James Duncan Sir James Duncan (South Angus) rose—
  Mr. de Freitas: Let me get going.
  Sir J. Duncan: The Common Market affects Scotland as well as England and Wales. Why is the Motion confined to the Votes for England and Wales?
  Mr. de Freitas: I hope that the hon. Gentleman will listen to me. The reason for this debate is to discuss agricultural problems in England and Wales. I was conceding the fact, not that we should discuss Scotland or the Common Market, but that it was quite likely that the Common Market would enter into our debate. Very little of my speech will be devoted to that subject, but, if the hon. Gentleman will let me make it, he will be in a position to criticise it.
  Surely it must be without precedent for the officers of the Conservative Party Agriculture Committee to be taking different views in public on this important matter. We have discussed the Minister's views previously and I will not repeat them, but here we have a difference of view and I look forward to hearing it reconciled today. I sympathise with them. These officers are usually loyal supporters of the Government, but one of them is in danger of being disloyal. Which one? We do not know, the Government do not know, nobody knows, because we have not yet had a coherent statement of Government policy on this subject.
  While I sympathise with the Government in their difficulties, I ask them to sympathise with the leaders of the agricultural industry, both the farmers and the farm workers. How can they, or anyone else, make up their mind when the Government provide no data on which the issues can be decided? On what other matter of great complexity have the Government so resolutely failed to provide even a White Paper?
  Instead, it has been a matter of abdication and of leaving the running to Lord Beaverbrook and the other Press lords. Surely, it is not asking too much that there should be some indication of Government policy and some decision.
  38
  If one wants a seat at a wedding, one has to say whether one is a friend of the bridegroom or of the bride. The time comes when it has to be decided. Sitting in the church porch in this climate can be a very cold business.
  We are giving up this day to agriculture because we are seriously worried that both the producer and the consumer have been prejudiced by the direction of Government policy. Concerning the producer generally, we are worried at the results of Government policy. It is general knowledge that the proportion of the gross national product which has been going to the agricultural community has declined steadily year after year in the last ten years. In real terms, the decline is even more striking.
  I ask a Question from time to time about relating the internal purchasing power of the £ to what it was in October, 1951. The last figure which I was given, on Friday, showed that it was down to 14s. 10d. The Dairy Farmer, commenting on the ten years of Conservative Government, states that
  "in real values, the income of the agricultural community has fallen by 12·6 per cent."
  Both the farmer and the farm worker have suffered from this policy of putting the food producer further and further down the line. Like the Dairy Farmer, I bracket the farmer and the farm worker in the-phrase "the agricultural community". My friends in the agricultural unions acknowledge that there is considerable community of interest between them.
  Most of the attack on the standards of the agricultural community is the direct result of Government financial policy, but it is the Minister's job to protect the food producer. It is the failure to do this which is so much resented. Consider milk, for example. The Ministry has abdicated and has "passed the buck" to the Milk Marketing Board. Surely, it should have proposed a scheme for discussion. The Minister has plenty of good ideas when he wants to tackle a problem. He was most imaginative when he tackled the pig price problem with his scheme.
  Are not the facts about milk well known? Is it not a fact that more low-quality milk is being produced than the market needs? if that is so, should not the Government put forward a scheme

  39
  for discussion, perhaps with penalties for low-quality milk and rewards for higher-quality milk, thus showing that they were interested in doing something for the producer? Should they not also have met this need by expanding the welfare milk schemes, both at home and abroad?
  I will consider, first, the scheme abroad. We in this country have lived by importing food. That has resulted in our forgetting that, because of our skill in cattle breeding and our climate, we are in the position of being able to help less fortunate countries by giving them our surplus milk in the form of skimmed milk. Everybody knows that in Africa there is particular need of animal proteins. Anyone who has ever been in West or East Africa has seen children suffering from lack of animal protein. I am told that in the Congo area the situation is even worse.
  The Governments of Canada, the United States, Switzerland and, perhaps, others are supplying dried, skimmed milk free of charge to the United Nations Children's Fund. Surely, we should consider doing the same. We do not need to pay the transport—that is done under United Nations auspices—but it is the supply of the dried skimmed milk which can do so much good.
  The Milk Marketing Board applied last week to the Government for action against the dumping of milk products, but what prospects have the producers if precedent is anything to go by? The last time that the Milk Marketing Board applied to the Government for protection against dumping, which was 1958, it took nearly five months for the Government to reply. That is absurd when we realise that dumping is usually the sudden unloading of surpluses at uneconomic prices.
  What is being done about the dumping of barley? In a leading article today, The Times points out that the prices appear to be well below the cost of production and that in some cases they are below what the producer has received. It points out that it may be difficult to establish the home price of Russian grain, but that there seems to be a prima facie case of the dumping of French barley. Barley could give the hardest knock to public acceptance of the price support scheme.
  40
  I want an assurance from the Minister that his file on this matter is in action. I ask for this assurance particularly because in February this year, when I asked him Questions about an international conference on barley exports, I did not feel that his Department was as alarmed as it should be about the prospect. Now, we have this dumping.
  Sir J. Duncan: Again, Scotland is very much involved with the dumping of barley and wheat. Why are we prohibited from discussing Scottish barley and wheat?
  Mr. de Freitas: With great respect to the hon. Member, the Opposition are fully entitled to have a day to discuss the problem of agriculture in England and Wales.
  Sir J. Duncan: It has never been done before.
  Mr. de Freitas: Perhaps the hon. Member will take it up with his Scottish colleagues. He might as well object that we are not discussing fisheries, although we discuss that subject a great deal. There is every reason for having this debate. We welcome the hon. Member's presence and I am sure that his English and Welsh hon. Friends will be delighted if he takes up their case for them.
  Mr. Gerald Nabarro: Now that my hon. Friend the Member for South Angus (Sir J. Duncan) has left the Chamber, let us get on with some English business.
  Mr. de Freitas: I have mentioned two aspects of dumping: milk products and barley. The Egg Marketing Board has also complained recently to the Government against the dumping of Eastern European eggs. Only a few fanatics are against Communist eggs as such; they seem to think that they have red yolks, or something like that. The essential point is that if Eastern European eggs are to come here, they must be sold at realistic prices.
  The Government, I understand, thought that the eggs were dumped at ridiculous prices- I believe that that was their finding—but what was done about it? Nothing. I ask the Government to recognise that the producer of food is as much entitled to the protection of the anti-dumping laws as is the producer of

  41
  manufactured goods. I want this to be recognised and acknowledged. It is not something that the agricultural producer wants only for himself. He merely wants the same protection as his colleague the industrial producer.
  Another aspect of the producer's interests in which the Government have shown one of their least imaginative steps is concerned with marketing. I had hoped, after the grilling which the Ministry of Agriculture received from all quarters at the time of the Second Reading of the Covent Garden Market Bill, that the Minister would have shaken up his Department on marketing, but there is no sign of it. Alas, there seems to be in the Department the same approach as there was before.
  In the Horticulture Act, which we passed a year or so ago, there was provision for grants for marketing. I pressed the Minister on this in Questions a week or so ago. I should like to know what the Government's policy is, for I believe that there was a fundamental mistake in that Act. It encouraged the individual grower to "go it alone" in marketing—, which is really fantastic in modern conditions—instead of emphasising co-operation. I believe that it was a mistake, and today this marketing is much more inefficient than it need be, simply because we encouraged the producer to market by himself.
  At Whitsun, I had a look at the Dutch co-operative horticultural marketing system. The advantages of the clock auction are being gradually accepted in this country. I understand that the National Farmers' Union committee which went over there—I spoke to the chairman of the committee—was very much impressed with it. What is the Ministry doing to encourage this? It is right to be impressed by it, because it is an impressive system.
  To begin with, it is much cheaper. The difference is that between the average cost of 10 per cent. under our primitive system—which is the only way of describing it—and 2 per cent. under the clock auction system. Probably, it is not as big as that, but the difference is considerable, and certainly it is obvious that it must be cheaper. First, it is so quick. The first bid, and the auction is over: one bid only. Secondly, instead of a
  42
  host of salesmen it requires one operator and one assistant. The grower benefits.
  This is important The grower benefits not only because it is cheaper, but because, since it is run by a growers' co-operative, he does not have to pay the cartage and freightage charges before the produce is sold. Under our system the grower pays cartage and freightage charges before the goods are sold, and, especially in times of surplus, this may mean paying all these charges although the produce is taken across the country and not sold at all.
  So the grower benefits. The only explanation I can find for this not being adopted is lack of understanding of the true nature of co-operation and a real willingness to adopt the modern system. The Dutch system—it is not as modern as all that—goes back to the 'eighties of the last century; but it is being adopted now in other countries in Europe and being brought up to date. The grower benefits from this system not only from the lower cost of marketing, but because the wholesaler has a greater opportunity of knowing what the consumer wants. In this way the wholesaler knows exactly what the customers require and is more able to meet the requirements of the customers.
  Every one of the growers and buyers I talked to agreed that because the grower is present at the auction he can see what kind of produce and what kind of packing gets the highest price. The buyer knows what the customer wants; the grower sees what the buyer wants; the result is a constant improvement in growing, grading and presentation.
  Sir Peter Agnew: Ought not the hon. Gentleman, who is speaking of the advantages of the Dutch auction system, to make it clear to the Committee that it is really no good unless everybody is in it, and that that would mean compulsion, and that, so far, our own growers do not wish to agree to it?
  Mr. de Freitas: The point of my speech was that leadership from the Government was lacking and that the Government should bring the industry round to realising that in its own interests—that is, of the growers and of the consumers—it should support this system. It is perfectly true that it does

  43
  benefit from a measure of compulsion, but if the growers were to realise that it would be in their own interests they would accept it. They do so in other countries. I do not see why they should not do so here.
  As I said, the Government's record as protector of the producers is poor, but it has an even worse record as a protector of the consumer. It is bad enough, as I say, for the Government to allow the producers to suffer, and to allow the sale of mock milk, so that caterers can palm off synthetic liquid as milk or ice cream; but think of the unfortunate consumer who is doomed by the Government to having in his cup of tea a white substance fortified with vegetable oil when he believes that he is drinking milk.
  I am told that this adulterous conception—as it is called in a letter I have about it—is being carried from milk to milk bread.
  Mr. Nabarro: Would the hon. Gentleman put a novice right? Would he explain, first, what mock milk is, and what an adulterous conception is in that context?
  Mr. de Freitas: I, too, find it difficult to get the second quite clear and that shows the problem that there is in keeping up with one's correspondence and the full implications of it, but mock milk we have discussed at length here, and on the Government benches, particularly, there was great enthusiasm, I remember, at the time of the debate we had last February.
  Mr. Nabarro: Mock auction?
  Mr. de Freitas: No. Mock milk.
  The Government now, I understand, are working on a draft regulation under which not only mock milk can be sold, but milk bread will be able to be sold when it does not contain milk at all.
  It is disgraceful, but we should not be shocked after we have seen the synthetic ice cream come on to the market. We have seen mock milk come on to the market and sold in conditions of which the consumers do not know. Their standards are being eroded. There is no question about it.
  I wonder whether the Minister read the papers last week. On one day in particular, I think it was Friday, he
  44
  would have seen this about bacon, a report of yet another surrender by the Government of the interests of consumers and producers. The present regulations for the sale of bacon go back to before the war—to 1934, when most of it was sold not sliced and done up in cellophane, as today, but cut in the presence of the purchaser. The present regulations are satisfactory—because the origin of the bacon must be disclosed, and the regulations cover That—when the bacon is cut in the presence of the purchaser.
  The National Farmers' Union and others have been trying to get the Government to bring the regulations up to date so that when bacon is sold already sliced its country of origin should be disclosed, so that the purchaser is to that extent protected, so that the housewife, if she wants British bacon, may have it, and if she wants Danish, she can have it, and if she wants Polish, she can have it—whatever it is. But that is not what we have at present. The Press reported last week that once again the Government have refused to amend the regulations to cover this.
  On the same day the Chief Port Health Inspector for Grimsby was quoted as saying that 15 per cent. of fish on sale in the shops would be condemned as unfit in a wholesale market and the Daily Mail added that
  "No one from the trade could be found to deny this charge."
  The inspector went on to criticise, as he said, the filthy, oozy, slimy, wooden boxes in which fish is transported. Those who have seen the Grimsby market will have their own opinions about the efficiency of the market, but there can be no two opinions about the quality of the metal boxes used there. It is in matters like these, in raising and maintaining standards, that the Ministry has done so little.
  Last week the price of bread went up for the third time in just over a year. Why? Has the price of wheat gone up? Are the millers doing so badly? I read reports of enormously increased profits. Are the bakers doing so badly? All the financial reports that I have seen show that they are doing very well indeed. These are three points on which the consumer needs the Government's protection and is not receiving it.

  45
  There is another point on storage tanks which is relevant to the farmer not only as a producer of milk, but as one who goes into the market to buy storage tanks. I believe that the Ministry is encouraging the bulk storage of milk, hoping, no doubt, in the long run, to bring down the price. I have seen no Government supporter coming to my aid when I have raised in the House what I can only describe as the racket of rigged prices for bulk storage tanks. The Prime Minister brushed me off. So I sought to table a Question to the President of the Board of Trade to ask whether he was aware that farmers who wish to install bulk milk storage tanks have found that tanks manufactured by different firms in different parts of the country from different materials are offered for sale for exactly the same price, and whether a price maintenance agreement had been registered. The right hon. Gentleman would not answer this Question, and I have had to refer it to the Registrar.
  The price in each case was £929 18s. It seems a fantastic coincidence. If we are to have anything like competition in the supply of goods and materials to farmers the Government must take an interest in the matter. This failure to protect either the producer or the consumer raises questions on the Government's agricultural policy, in particular in relation to the small farmer.
  One or two of my hon. Friends will be developing this most important aspect later. It should be remembered that public money is spent in encouraging the small farmer and the Zuckermann Committee has pointed out that they, more than anyone else, need to invest in mechanisation. The Committee has pointed out that a 50-acre farm may need five or ten times as much investment in relation to turnover as a large farm. It has been recognised by agricultural economists that small farmers need to use specialist machinery designed to make greater use of the labour of one or two men.
  We know that more and more the small farmers are having to depend upon specialist mechanisation. The economists and the small farmers know it and so do the Government. Yet, instead of taking steps to encourage mechanisation, the Government, since the Zuckermann Report, have increased the duty on fuel oils. Where is the con-
  46
  sistency of such a policy? It is time that the Government were frank about their intentions. We know certain facts, but we can only deduce others.
  We know, for instance, that less than 1 per cent. of the subsidies are spent on small farmers' schemes and we know that farms of under 100 acres receive less public money per £100 net income than farms of over 100 acres. We know that many small farmers do not come under the scheme at all. Since 1955, only £300 of the £1,500 million invested in agriculture have gone towards making small farms into larger units. We can only deduce that the Government are preparing to see the end of the small farmer, but they have not the courage to say so.
  The Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Mr. Christopher Soames)The Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Mr. Christopher Soames) indicated dissent.
  Mr. de Freitas: The right hon. Gentleman shakes his head. I should be glad to hear him on that point.
  In Denmark, there is a thriving economy based on small farmers. Denmark has no advantages over us in physical conditions, but many people believe that a great deal is due to her advisory services, which work cooperatively from the producer up and they can thus help themselves.
  I have complained of the way the Government have gone from side to side in agricultural policy and of the lack of decision at the highest level, but it could be argued that I should not complain when the Government do make a decision. I think that the Minister was right in introducing Charollais bulls from France. The breed societies were much too smug and needed a jolt, but what is the good of bringing in bulls and carefully testing their progeny in this way if the same is not done for our own leading beef bulls so that we can obtain some comparison between them?
  The right hon. Gentleman should go back over the last five or ten years and select five of the most popular breeds and have their progeny tested in the same way as is done with the French bulls. It may be argued that this is a ruthless selection, but the French Government go even further. They are about to compel the beef industry to use only two breeds of bulls, the Charollais and Limousin.

  47
  I shall be interested to hear the answers to all these questions of detail because they affect the producer, the consumer and, above all, the small farmer. We are entitled to have answers on these points, because it must be clear that both the producers and the consumers have been hurt and unsettled not only by the drift in Government agricultural policy, but also by complete lack of guidance on the Common Market.
  Mr. John Biggs-Davison: Is not this where the Labour Party has a chance to come in and give some guidance?
  Mr. de Freitas: That is one of the most ridiculous interventions ever made. The whole point is that not only the Labour Party but everybody in the country, in the farming papers and in the agricultural communities is asking for the data on which we can make up our minds about the impact on the agricultural industry of our entering the Common Market. It is only—[An HON. MEMBER: "Storage tanks."] Why should we not introduce storage tanks? The whole reason for this debate is to make criticisms of the Government's agricultural policy, or their lack of policy, and to refer to the various trends in agriculture in England and Wales. I have made my points, and I want an answer to them.
  I do not intend to be sidetracked. There is a point of criticism which everyone is fully entitled to make of the Government. It is that on this supreme political issue of the day we have not had a White Paper and not even a coherent statement of Government policy on the Common Market. That is what we need if the industry, whether it is the farm workers or the farmers, are to make up their minds.
  Mr. Nabarro: Before the hon. Gentleman sits down, will he answer this question to which the inquiring minds of my hon. Friends and myself have been applied? Surely the Labour Party is united in this matter as in all other matters. Is there no Labour Party policy about the Common Market? If there is, could we be told what it is?
  Mr. de Freitas: A most extraordinary question has been asked and a most novel constitutional argument has been
  48
  advanced. I would remind the hon. Gentleman of what his right hon. Friend the Member for Woodford (Sir W. Churchill) always pointed out, that on many matters concerning negotiations with foreign countries it was impossible for the Opposition to know all the facts and, therefore, impossible for them to lay down a policy, but that it was the Government's duty to have a policy and the Opposition's duty to ask formally for an indication of the Government's policy. I believe that in that matter, as in many others, the right hon. Member for Woodford had a good idea of constitutional practice, and I have great pleasure in adopting his argument.
  The Chairman: Mr. Soames.
  4.12 p.m.
  The Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Mr. Christopher Soames)The Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Mr. Christopher Soames) rose—
  Mr. William Baxter: On a point of order, Sir Gordon. I believe that Scotland has been excluded from the terms of today's debate. Like the hon. Member for South Angus (Sir J. Duncan), I am greatly concerned about it and I should like your guidance on this point.
  The Chairman: The Vote does not include Scotland, and, therefore, the hon. Member for West Stirlingshire (Mr. Baxter) is out of order in debating the point.
  Mr. Baxter: As Scottish Members are excluded from participating in the debate, I should like to know whether Scottish Members will be excluded from participating in a Division, if there is one, on this issue tonight.
  The Chairman: I think that the hon. Member knows the answer to that.
  Mr. Soames: The hon. Member for Lincoln (Mr. de Freitas) made it clear in his speech that the object of the Opposition is to have a general debate on agriculture in England and Wales. He told us the Opposition would decide, during the course of the debate, whether or not they would seek to divide the Committee.
  The hon. Member made a number of points in his speech, some of which I will endeavour to cover in my reply, and others will be answered later by my hon.

  49
  Friend the Joint Parliamentary Secretary. However, I must say that if one adds together the points that were made in criticism of Government policy, they certainly do not amount to a very grave attack on the broad policies in respect of agriculture which are being followed by the Government.
  This has become the traditional way in which we debate each year the main problems facing agriculture, and I thought that it would be best if I were to say something, first, about the main problems which were facing the industry at this time and then say something about the general condition of agriculture. I take the point that the hon. Gentleman made, that it would be unrealistic at present to have a debate upon agriculture without saying something about the Common Market, and I shall refer to that at the end of my speech.
  First, in my view, of all commodity problems from the point of view of our home agriculture is milk. It is easy enough to set out the problem. Output is increasing, the price per gallon to the producer is falling and the profit margin is being eroded. On the first point, I can quote the Chairman of the Milk Marketing Board for England and Wales. The trend for greater milk output will, he says, continue in this country. This is a great achievement of production. But the production record is not the end of the business. The milk must be sold, and sold profitably enough to give the producers a decent return.
  For some years now increasing production has served only to reduce profitability. The more producers have increased output the worse the problem has become. This trouble has come about under the present system of the boards pooling their returns for their sales of liquid milk with their very much less profitable sales of milk for manufacture. As a result, the individual producer does not have brought home to him the consequence of producing milk above the standard quantity level, which only the manufacturing industry can absorb.
  How should we tackle this? One way would be to let the trend of rising production and falling prices to the producer continue until, by sheer economic
  50
  pressure, the trend was reversed. But that is not a very pleasant outlook. I was anxious to see whether an alternative and less harsh method could be devised. There are some who say that the Government's object in trying to tamper in any way with the existing system is merely an endeavour to limit the Government's obligations in respect of the amount of milk which is produced. But that is far from the case. For some years now we have had a standard quantity for milk. It is about 28 per cent. above the level of liquid milk consumption in the country, and that is the quantity for which the Government assure a guaranteed price.
  It makes no difference either to the Government's financial commitment of to the price that the consumer pays for his milk if milk is produced in excess of the standard quantity. It is the dairy farmer who is affected, because the value of the guarantee within the standard quantity is diluted by the much lower receipts from excess milk, which can only spill over into the manufacturing market.
  The alternative that springs to mind is some form of two-tier tariff under which the farmer would be paid two prices, one related to the value of the milk sold in the liquid market, and the other, the lower price, to what goes for manufacture. Of course, this is no simple matter. There are many difficulties inherent in this, and maybe this is not the only alternative. But the whole thing is being examined thoroughly by the unions and the Milk Marketing Boards. It is the Milk Marketing Boards which have decided on this system of payment. If we could get broad agreement within the industry on what is the right approach to this matter, it would be most helpful.
  I very much hope that something helpful will come out of this examination. Otherwise, I must be frank and say that the only course open to us would be to take the hard way. By the hard way, I mean the way we have been going for years, with rises in production resulting in a fall in the price per gallon and the erosion of the profitability of the industry.
  There is a close link between milk and beef. One reason why we increased the guaranteed price for fat cattle at

  51
  the last Annual Price Review was to encourage the switch from milk to beef. But that was not the only reason. There is scope for more beef on its own merits. We are eating less than we did before the war, and, incidentally, it is one of the few commodities in which there is not yet a world surplus in sight.
  Fewer calves were kept than last year, so that it looked as if production would fall unless something was done to counteract it. I am sure that we were right—and the hon. Gentleman has agreed that we were right—in being ready to give the substantial increase of 10s. per cwt. The N.F.U. also suggested at the Review that we should give a grant to cover the cost of artificial insemination by beef bulls. I said at the time that we would consider that. There are difficulties inherent in it, but we shall have a look at it again at the next Review.
  Hon. Members may agree that it was the right policy to encourage production of beef, but that the present level of market prices suggest that our assumptions about the future have been too rosy. The market is weak at the moment, but I am advised that this is not likely to be anything but temporary. That this view is shared by the farming community is shown by the fact that the store market remains firm. In any event, this increase in the guaranteed price must be looked at in the light of the fact that beef production is a long-term job. No one can judge from one month to another.
  For once, one can mention pigs with a sense of sober satisfaction. Because of the ups and downs which have so long been the curse of this section of the industry, to make any firm prediction would be to go out on a very shaky limb. It was to try to break this recurring pig cycle that we introduced a flexible guarantee arrangement, and this was coupled with an increase of 3d. per score in the basic guaranteed price, and an assurance that there will be no reduction at the next Review.
  This combination was designed to encourage a moderate increase in the pig population which was clearly called for, without, we hope, setting off a fresh pig cycle. [An HON. MEMBIER: "What is a pig cycle?"] "Pig cycle" is a term of
  52
  art, meaning that pigs are very profitable at some periods and very unprofitable in others. So far as we can see at the moment, and I say this with all reservations in this highly unpredictable field, our plans look as though they are working out. We hope, at the end of the year, to reach a figure somewhere near the middle of the band around which the flexible guarantee is constructed, and I hope that we shall be able to keep somewhere around that level, at least for the time being. The problem will remain to keep the pig herd reasonably stable, without frustrating expansion when that can be profitable.
  To turn to barley, few people, I believe, were surprised that the guaranteed price was cut at the last Review. The facts had to be faced. Barley production had nearly doubled in six years, and the rate of subsidy had got quite out of line with that for other cereals. A feature of the barley market was that too much was loaded on to it from our own farms immediately after harvest and we thought it right to try new arrangements to spread the marketing more evenly throughout tie year. But, since the Review the barley market has taken a hard knock which, if it continues, would nullify our efforts to bring about a more orderly marketing of the crop. Nobody can be complacent about the present state and prospects of the barley market.
  I certainly view with great concern a price for barley of around £15 or £16 per ton. These very low prices put a serious strain on our whole system of support, and present us with a major problem which we are considering urgently with the farmers' leaders. The hon. Gentleman asked me for an assurance that the file is active, and I can assure him that it is very active. This is something which we have kept under urgent consideration.
  Mr. de Freitas: If the right hon. Gentleman is now leaving the subject of barley, would he answer my other point? There was a leading article in The Times today, concerning what we are to do about the dumping of French barley, about which, in the view of The Times, there was a prima facie case for saying that it comes in at below the cost of production.
  Mr. Soames: This is part of the problem. I cannot announce today what action the Government are to take about dumping, be it from France or from any other country, but I can tell the hon. Gentleman that we are giving urgent consideration to it.
  The hon. Gentleman said a good deal about marketing. Where I depart fundamentally from him is that he thinks much more than we do that it is the duty of the Government to impose upon the industry certain aspects of marketing, whereas we believe that in agriculture, as in any other industry, marketing is a jab for the industry itself. Marketing is a whole subject in itself, and I can only touch on it today. It involves market research on a large scale, and then applying the results to the type and quality of production and the way in which the products should be presented. I know that the National Farmers' Unions are giving a great deal of thought to this, and we are having talks between the Farmers' Unions and my Department to see how the offer of financial help can be put to best use.
  The agricultural co-operative movement, to which the hon. Gentleman also referred, is doing splendid work in this respect. It is already big business, with a turnover of about £300 million a year, compared with only £60 million ten years ago, an increase which is a most satisfactory and encouraging one. There are now five or six horticultural co-operatives coming into being. There are nearly 150 machinery syndicates, and there will undoubtedly be more. We introduced at this Price Review, as the Committee will know, a new form of grant for them, along the lines broadly of the Farm Improvement Scheme.
  Under the main Farm Improvement Scheme, approval has already been given to projects which will mean the investment of £70 million of capital in agriculture in England and Wales, one-third of it being provided by the Exchequer. This is a very considerable figure, and I think that there is no doubt on either side of the Committee that this scheme has shown itself to be of the greatest value to the industry as a whole.
  Expenditure already approved on plans under the Small Farmer Scheme totals nearly £16 million. The hon. Member for Lincoln asked what was the Government's
  54
  attitude towards the small farmers. This scheme represents the first attempt by any Government to tackle this issue and try to do something for the small farmer. It is working well and having considerable effect in areas of the country traditionally comprising small farms.
  As the first batch of plans near completion and it becomes possible for the National Agriculture Advisory Service to take on further work, we shall have to think what adaptations of the scheme may usefully he made. But that is a matter for the future. I do not think that it would be making a proper use of our resources to adapt the scheme to cover every individual engaged in agriculture no matter how small his holding. The lower limits of the scheme are designed to bring in those farms which, although small, are capable of providing a reasonable return to a full-time occupier. Below this level there are many thousands of holdings which are worked part-time and others which are referred to by Economists as being "non-viable".
  When the scheme was introduced the problem of these holdings was left for further study. This further study has shown that in the vast majority of cases, where the farm business is too small to provide an occupier with remunerative full-time employment, he has other sources of income and is not dependent entirely upon the holding for his livelihood. The number of cases where occupiers appear to have no other source of income are shown to be few and far between. They are scattered round the country and there is no particular pattern to them. They do not warrant any special action.
  By the end of the first year we had approved proposals for work under the Horticulture Improvement Scheme costting nearly £2 million and we have in applications for as much again. It is early days yet to judge whether this scheme is just right, but it has got off to a good start. It is in the nature of things that a substantial proportion of applications made under the scheme should come from the larger growers whose holdings warrant extra large-scale investment of capital. But I know that there is a feeling that it does not sufficiently meet the needs of the small grower. In fact, we have had quite a lot of applications from small growers,

  55
  some for quite considerable amounts, and also from co-operatives in which the small growers participate and for which, again, considerable capital investment is easier.
  The past year has not been a good one for horticulture generally, although, as always, some lines of production have done better than others. It is a fact that in each of the main sections—orchard fruit, soft fruit, glasshouse salad vegetables, and flowers and nursery stock—returns to producers during the last five years have been significantly higher than in the previous five-year period. The average return from vegetables grown in the open air has been about maintained. As a whole, the output of the industry is worth about £135 million per annum, which is about £20 million mare than in the earlier post-war years.
  Particularly at this time of the year, when the shops are full of young fresh vegetables, it is brought home to the public how much it owes to our market gardeners. Enormous strides have been made in increasing efficiency through improved techniques of husbandry and disease control, better management and marketing and the development of improved varieties. We look to the Horticultural Marketing Council to contribute significantly to the general competitiveness of the industry.
  Sir P. Agnew: My right hon. Friend told the Committee, I think, that the value of horticultural produce has been increasing above what it was in the past three years. Is it not the case, taking the last three years, that there has been a successive decrease of about £10 million a year in the value of the horticultural produce sold off holdings?
  Mr. Soames: My hon. Friend refers to a period of three years. The figures which I have been quotng are for an average over the last five years compared with that for the previous five years. I have not the figures over the three-year period, but in the period of five years the figures are as I have given them.
  Mr. Douglas Marshall: Do the figures given by my right hon. Friend refer to volume or to money?
  Mr. Soames: Of gross output. The figures are gross returns of gross output.
  Mr. Marshall: In money?
  Mr. Soames: In terms of money, yes.
  I now turn to agriculture generally and the state of prosperity of the industry today. The net income for 1960–61 was forecast, before we started on this year's review, at £359 million—a slight rise over the previous year, and, on the basis of normal weather conditions, a considerable rise. This year's review provided a plus of £14 million. In the level of production we have the remarkable increase from 145 per cent. of pre-war in 1950–51, to 162 per cent. in 1957–58, and up to 172 per cent. in 1960–61.
  After the terrible weather of late autumn and winter we might have expected a serious setback in the area sown to corn this year. But it looks as if it will be only marginally lower than last year's extremely high level. This remarkable achievement was made possible by the constant determination of our farm workers, often in the most appalling conditions.
  The beef breeding herd is increasing only slowly, but we have yet to see the effect of the increase in the guaranteed price. The breeding stocks of sheep and pigs continue to expand. Egg production is temporarily lower, but it seems likely that over the next twelve months output will be higher than in the farming year just ended. We already have a good crop of hay and silage in this year, and what we need now to fill the corn is some rain in June.
  Now for the prospects in the future. There is not, and neither can there be, any argument as to what our objectives must be in any agricultural policy which we follow. Not until the war began to threaten did we give any great encouragement to our farmers to make full use of their acres and of their agricultural skills. Since then, it has been the policy of successive Governments to enable farmers to get the best out of their land. They have risen to the occasion and taken splendid advantage of it.
  It is common ground between all parties that this is a benefit not only to the countryside, but to the whole nation. Even in the last decade there have been changes of emphasis in our support system to match changing times, and

  57
  though, of course, there have been arguments about whether what has been done was right or wrong, there is no argument that successive Governments over the last twenty years have designed their policies to enable the agricultural industry to make a full contribution to the national economy.
  This is and must remain a permanent feature of Government policy and it is the background against which we must be guided in all our thoughts for the future. The system which we have devised over the years was acknowledged in last year's White Paper as that which suits best our national circumstances. We must not forget that the system varies widely for different commodities. For some, like grain and meat, the bill for support is carried wholly by the Exchequer. For others, like sugar, it is carried wholly by the consumer, and for others, like milk, by a mixture of the two. Then there is the horticultural tariff.
  There is nothing rigid in the method which we adopt for our agricultural support. What is sacrosanct is that it should be at an appropriate level to achieve our objective. Moreover, the farming community has the Government's pledge that the 1957 Act will continue to operate during the lifetime of this Parliament. That, also, is sacrosanct. What is more, the stability which this is designed to give to our farming industry must be a lasting feature of our national life. That is the principle which must alway guide us if future circumstances demand adaptations or changes of method.
  By virtue of the fact that we are the only large free market for foodstuffs in the world, in the past we have often gone through periods when the level and the price of imports of a certain commodity have hit our market hard, but usually that has been the result of one country offloading one commodity, and the situation has been manageable. I do not say that it has always been managed to everyone's satisfaction, but it has been manageable.
  In recent months we have seen a significant stepping up of this offloading, both in terms of the number of commodities and the number of countries involved. Of course, if this is only a passing phase, we should be able to con-
  58
  trol it. But is it? Are there not signs that in the years ahead world food surpluses are likely to increase yet more? If so, are not the pressures and strains on our free market likely to grow rather than diminish?
  It is true that behind our support system we have the 1957 anti-dumping legislation, but that legislation was designed to deal with specific incidents and it was not designed to give blanket protection against falling world prices. And it is not man enough for that. This trend is creating major difficulties for us and we must deal with them in the short term as best we can with the measures which are open to us. If it looks like becoming a permanent feature, so that wide ranges of foodstuffs come on to our free market at uneconomic prices, we will have seriously to consider adapting our system in order to prevent our objective from being thwarted. Otherwise, we will find our farmers constantly at the mercy of imports at uneconomic prices, with Exchequer payments rising to unpredictable heights. It is against this background—that we must maintain our objective of a thriving and stable agriculture, but with our methods flexible—that I should like to say some words about the Common Market.
  As the Prime Minister has said, no decision has yet been taken one way or the other on this great issue. Any decision to join or adhere to the Common Market must depend on satisfactory arrangements being made for British agriculture. Before we even look at the methods of support that that would involve, we must first see whether the objectives of the Community is right, from the point of view of agriculture.
  Those objectives, as stated by the Community, are as follows:
  "to increase agricultural productivity by developing technical progress and by ensuring the rational development of agricultural production and the optimum utilisation of the factors of production, particularly labour;
  to ensure thereby a fair standard of living for the agricultural population, particularly by the increasing of the individual earnings of persons engaged in agriculture;
  to stabilise markets; to guarantee regular supplies; and to ensure reasonable prices in supplies to consumers."
  So far as they go as principle, there is nothing in them to which we would object. Indeed, they express, in somewhat different words, what lies behind

  59
  our own agricultural policies embodied in the Agriculture Acts of 1947 and 1957.
  The main difficulty which one sees in them is how one can construe what is, I quote:
  "a fair standard of living for the agricultural population".
  That is a fair generalisation for one country, for it can be matched against the standard of the population as a whole, but standards of living in the countryside vary very much in different European countries. Ours is high and we could only agree with or participate in any system which was to keep it that way.
  Any country which associates itself with the Common Market would be not only subscribing to principles, but agreeing to participate in the working of a common agricultural policy to give effect to those objectives. Here, the picture is much less clear. It is divided into two parts. There is, first, to be a transitional period, during which different countries would be gradually adapting their systems of agricultural support and food import prices to a common system.
  Commodity prices for their farm products would vary as between countries and they would be protected in ways which suited them best, not only from outside but also between themselves. The manner and pace at which they move towards a common policy remains to be negotiated between them, and there is ample evidence of the difficulties which they are finding in reaching agreement about this. It was originally envisaged that the transitional period for most commodities would last until 1967, but time has been slipping by and proposals even for the transitional period, let alone the Common Market period, have yet to be adopted by the Community.
  While the broad pattern of policy can be seen from the proposals which the Commission is putting forward, there is still a great deal of uncertainty about what will finally emerge. What is clear from our point of view is that it would be necessary, were a decision to be taken in principle, to negotiate arrangements commodity by commodity to suit our special circumstances and the interests of the Commonwealth.
  Where the Common Market period is concerned, the broad intention of the
  60
  Community is to fix and hold prices for different commodities at a level high enough to provide a satisfactory return to producers without encouraging production to a point of embarrassing surplus. It plans to bring about equality of prices of different commodites among its member countries so that there will be no need of protection as between each other. From countries outside the Community it will control imports, both as to quantity and price, to protect and to preserve its internal market.
  So, for those commodities which here carry no Exchequer payment, the difference between their system and ours is one of emphasis rather than principle. For those commodities which are here supported by Exchequer payments the difference would be more fundamental. Where we have, broadly speaking, a free market with minimal tariffs on imports and a price which is made up above the free market price by Exchequer deficiency payments, the Community intends, by various devices—such as tariffs and levies against outside competition, and by domestic support buying within to deal with internal surpluses, to achieve the desired market price, which will be fixed by mutual agreement.
  Instead of, as in our case, the Exchequer meeting the bill for the difference between what are virtually world food prices and prices determined by the Government, the market prices in the Community will be set and preserved by the member countries collectively to suit their collective needs and the consumer will pay the full price.
  From this broad picture one can draw certain conclusions from our point of view. If we were to be in the Community there would be an increase in the cost of some foods, the degree of which it is hard to assess since it would depend on the prices which had been agreed, and the rate at which it had been agreed that our system of support should be changed. For the same reason the cost of feeding-stuffs would also rise. It would mean a large measure of control over food imports.
  Then there is the question of sovereignty. Implicit in the whole concept of a Common Market is that arrangements designed to benefit the Community will be worked out in common, and be agreed in common, and

  61
  this, of course, affects a wide spectrum, both political and economic, but one in which agriculture is included. The sort of things one sees being decided collectively for agriculture—during the transitional basis, on a basis of unanimity and thereafter by weighted majority vote—are price levels, the size of import levies, and which classes of direct Government assistance to farmers through production grants and the like are admissible, and which are not.
  Against all this must be set the fact that if we were to be part of the Common Market we would be moving into a home market of over 200 million people. This would, of course, present British agriculture, which has been designed over the years to meet the needs of a proportion of our own national market, with an entirely new situation. For some commodities this would present difficulties but if we continue to increase our efficiency as we have done, there would also he many opportunities. In any event, our own market would cease to be the one which acts as a magnet for world surpluses, and many of the strains which flow from that aspect of our national affairs would disappear.
  Mr. Julian Ridsdale: Is it not possible for us to act independently, and, if necessary, when these surpluses are coming into our market, to put on a levy and renegotiate our existing arrangements?
  Mr. Soames: Under what circumstances?
  Mr. Ridsdale: Would it not be possible to renegotiate our existing arrangements and act independently, and, if necessary, put on a levy to prevent the import of agricultural products because of the extremely low prices at which they are coming into the country?
  Mr. Soames: We have to face the fact that if we go into the European Community it will be on the basis of moving over more closely to their pattern of support than we are at the moment.
  Predetermined positions have not been taken up on this issue. If it came to be decided for broad political and economic reasons to enter into negotiations, the Government's task would be to see whether it were possible to agree with the members of the Community on arrangements both for the transitional
  62
  and the Common Market periods which would continue to provide for the stability and prosperity of our agriculture and also continue to provide for our Commonwealth interests. To both, we are committed and dedicated. We should be firm about the objective of a satisfactory future for agriculture, while being prepared to examine dispassionately the possible methods of achieving it.
  Let us bear this in mind. One can generalise by saying that what is good for the country as a whole must be good for agriculture; that agriculture can only thrive and look to its future with confidence in the context of a strong, vigorous national economy. But that is not the whole story. The agricultural industry is not a sort of assembly line which can be adapted at short notice to meet changing needs. Alterations in policy should not be approached lightly or brought about rapidly. The impact of policy changes makes itself felt in years and generations ahead. Our land is a heritage which every generation holds in trust. Over the years we have built up a prosperous and efficient agricultural industry. We intend to keep it that way.
  Mr. Anthony Fell: Before my right hon. and learned Friend sits down, will he clear up one point? The hon. Member for Lincoln (Mr. de Freitas), during his speech, skilfully sat on the fence as regards the Common Market. My right hon. Friend said a lot about the Common Market, and made a brilliant peroration—
  The Temporary Chairman (Mr. Charles Royle): Order. The hon. Member must not make a speech.
  Mr. Fell: I am sorry, Mr. Royle. I wanted to ask my right hon. Friend a question.
  The Temporary Chairman: It will be in order if the hon. Member asks a question.
  Mr. Fell: May we now have a statement from my right hon. Friend who is, after all, the champion of the farmers and the farming community, about whether he wants us to join the Common Market if we can get in on decent terms? May we have a statement about that from some responsible Minister?
  Mr. Soames: This is a matter of big and broad political and economic issues. Whether it would be right for this country to join the Common Market will not be decided merely because of agriculture. All I say is that we cannot join the Common Market unless satisfactory arrangements are made for British agriculture.
  Mr. John Hynd: Who is sitting on the fence now?
  4.57 p.m.
  Mr. Desmond Donnelly: Perhaps I can satisfy the hon. Member for Yarmouth (Mr. Fell), because it was made clear from the Minister's statement that the Government's policy was rain in June, and we are seeing how successful that is this afternoon. This is the crowning achievement of the right hon. Gentleman.
  I do not wish to follow the right hon. Gentleman in the whole are of his speech, except to deal with the end of it. The central challenge to agriculture today is the Common Market. I should like to examine, first, whether agriculture constitutes an overriding reason for not joining. Secondly, to consider some of the implications to agriculture if we do join.
  Personally, I am in favour of joining the Common Market, but for reasons divorced from agriculture, for political, industrial and economic reasons on which I feel we cannot stand aside. That is another matter; and I want only to discuss agriculture.
  The position in the agricultural industry today stems from a series of different stages in the industry's background. There were the years of depression from 1870 until the First World War, and then there were the years of depression between the two wars. There was also the period of the siege economy during both wars and the period of siege economy following the second war. In the first siege the problem was U-boats. In the second siege the problem was the drain on currency. It was in that later period that the 1947 Act was conceived and finally put on the Statute Book. That is the main basis of our agricultural support system today.
  Yet nothing stands still, as the Home Secretary would undoubtedly agree.
  64
  The period of shortages with production at almost any price, so long as the volume was sustained, has come to an end, as the Minister of Agriculture has said. This is evidenced by the fact that surpluses are appearing in almost every type of product. And those surpluses are growing. There are also the problems of the deficiency payments scheme, connected with growing surpluses and the growing bill that is inevitably ahead for the Exchequer, should this situation go on, unless some action is taken to meet it in one of the alternative ways which the right hon. Gentleman put forward.
  It is understandable that no one should lightly cast aside this system which has served the industry so well and has done so much to recapitalise it and to enable the British farmer to stand up. He is a new person as compared with the individual we knew on our land twenty or twenty-five years ago. No one is proposing lightly to cast aside any systems of protection that we have. But two questions undoubtedly arise. The first is the question whether it will be politically possible, in the present situation, indefinitely to sustain the growing bill for subsidies. This is not a party issue; it is a practical problem which will face any occupant of the right hon. Member's office in the years ahead. We cannot evade it if we look seriously at the problems facing the industry.
  The second is the question whether it will be economically possible to meet the growing bill, especially if, for one reason or another, the industrial sector of our economy is handicapped or depressed. If any hon. Member were asked those questions, he would undoubtedly answer that there could be no definite guarantee, looking ahead, because it is not within our compass to be able to give such a guarantee.
  This brings me to the question, created in a fluid situation, whether we join the Common Market or not. If we join we should clearly do so for reasons far removed from agriculture, but we must consider the competitive position of the British farming industry in the eventuality of joining. I should like to say a word about each of the main points that have been made, as I see them. First, there is the size of the holdings and their

  65
  economic viability. It is not widely realised in this country that three-quarters of the agricultural holdings on the Continent of Europe are less than 25 acres, and that a small farmer in Britain is often a large farmer by Continental standards. That has a very important effect on our competitive capacity.
  Secondly, there is the advancement of British techniques and mechanisation. We are among the most technically advanced of all the agricultural countries in the world. Our mechanisation is running at a higher rate than that of almost any other country, and our use of capital is also very often more efficiently deployed than in any other country. As a result of the supports that we have given it in the last few years our agricultural industry is certainly better capitalised than that of almost any other agricultural country in the Common Market. Those factors have a very important effect on the potential competitive nature of the industry.
  I realise that, as the Minister said, there is the contrary problem—that although our techniques may be superior the wages and living standards of the farming community of the Six are often substantially lower than ours. In my view, however, this is not a valid argument. Right through the history of any form of production, the cottage industry—and I use that term in its loosest sense—has never been able to compete successfully against the modern, mechanised and capitalised producer. This is as true of farming as it is of engineering. Although temporarily, in the short run, one or two branches or small units of industry may be able to compete, in the long run an efficient, mechanised, capitalised, modern farming industry will always triumph over the peasant type of farming community.
  Mr. J. M. L. Prior: The hon. Member is trying to compare agriculture and horticulture with the manufacturing industry. Agriculture and horticulture must include a much greater proportion of stock supervision and the growing of crops. A cottager in the farming industry is very different from a cottager in a mechanised industry. I would have thought that the hon. Member's argument is not as good as he makes out.
  Mr. Donnelly: The hon. Member should have another look at the matter.
  66
  There are three aspects to any farming enterprise. There is the capital, the labour and the technique. If we have the capital and the technique we can quickly see how to out-do the peasant labourer. If the hon. Member considers our own agricultural industry and sees how we are getting cheaper and more efficient production with fewer people involved, simply because of our increased mechanisation, he will see the importance of the trend which I am seeking to point out.
  The third question of competitiveness is the geographical position of this island as compared with the Common Market countries. There are disadvantages of climate in respect of certain products. To some extent new techniques of storage might go a small way to mitigate this difficulty—although not all the way. There are also advantages. We can grow grass much better here than can be done in almost any other country, and we should be able to produce meat cheaper than any other country of the Six, provided that we go about it the right way. Given improvements in packaging and grading, which are now proceeding in our own industry, European farmers may have much more to fear from our farmers than our farmers have to fear from them.
  The Minister also pointed out another advantage. He said that we shall have opened up to us what is tantamount to a home market of 200 million people. That is an important factor to be considered by an industry which is modern, thriving, and in the state which our agricultural industry is at present. As the European economy grows, and living standards rise, there may be new opportunties to which the British farmer would not wish to be denied access.
  Of course, there are some objections. There will have to be some upheavals in agriculture if we join the Common Market. Continuing the industrial analogy, which the hon. Member for Lowestoft (Mr. Prior) did not like very much, I would point out that there has to be an upheaval in any factory when retooling takes place. In farming, it is more of a problem, because it cannot be done overnight; the farming cycle takes much longer than any industrial retooling project. Therefore, any changes which have to take place must he staged

  67
  and arranged in a fashion which will not be detrimental to our producers.
  But this fact has not escaped the notice of the signatories of the Treaty of Rome. Anybody who reads that Treaty will see that agriculture is likely to be the last to be settled of all the various economic problems which will have to be dealt with. So far, nothing has been decided. At present, the various conditions can be amended. But that situation will not remain indefinitely. It is much more difficult to reverse a decision which has been taken than to amend a proposal which is in process of being considered. The crux of this debate is the question: what should be our attitude, in the interests of agriculture, to the timing and announcing of any decision to join the Common Market, assuming that we decided to do so in principle? As the Minister said, in the Treaty and in the Commission's plan a number of provisions have been inserted to safeguard against many of the problems that we have been discussing today, such as the dumping of barley.
  Various other proposals are contained in the plan to ensure the rationalisation of some of the difficulties relating to surpluses. The dumping factor is very important for our farming industry. I say that if we decide to join the Common Market the sooner we do so the better for our agriculture, in order to mould the plans. The longer the decision is put off, the more difficult it will be to secure the necessary safeguards.
  This, of course, is conditional on the assumption that we shall join, but if we were to decide to join in a year or two from now our farming community would be at a considerable disadvantage as compared to its position if we took the decision now.
  Mr. Peter Walker: The hon. Member says that if we join now we should be able to mould Common Market agricultural policies, but is it not also possible that if we did join the European countries would mould our agricultural policies?
  Mr. Donnelly: That may be so. I am not denying that. But the object of moulding is to secure some arrangement whereby we come closer to each other. Whether or not we join the
  68
  Common Market, our agricultural industry cannot afford to take no notice whatever of what is going on on the Continent. Other problems stemming from the fact that we do not join will have an effect on our agricultural industry as well, and must be considered.
  I am dealing only with the problems of joining, and I regard the Minister's statement as a very important one. My profound regret is that it was not made by a spokesman from the Treasury Bench long ago. This is the culpability of the Government. For four years the Treaty of Rome has been under discussion. It was signed four years ago, and in that time we have had a whole series of misjudgments and miscalculations and political misstatements from the Government. The Treaty of Rome was signed two years before the Prime Minister was talking about having it so good, and four years before he was talking about keeping it good. If one considers that fact one realises the full magnitude of the complacency shown by the Government in the past, in the face of this serious economic challenge.
  This is the kind of complacency which served this country ill in the 1930s and which has served every country ill in the past, when it thought that it was achieving economic security. I am sure that there must have been a Macmillan Government in office when Rome fell. It is a remarkable indictment of the Government that we have had to wait four years for the kind of assessment we have had from the right hon. Gentleman today. We should have had it long ago, and I hope that it will be followed by an even closer scrutiny of the implications at the next stage of our discussions. What we want from the Government is a prompt answer to some of the problems which were posed by the Minister but which he left unanswered at the end.
  I am a Socialist, and I believe that in the Common Market there are great opportunities for economic planning on a much wider scale than is possible in this island alone. That is one of my reasons for saying that there are advantages to be gained from rationalisation, and the removing of waste and some of the inconsistencies which exist in our present society. I also see in the Common Market a great challenge and

  69
  opportunity to the British agricultural industry.
  I do not agree that the British farmer is necessarily against joining the Common Market, and that he is afraid of European competition. In the long run, provided that we show more activity and there is a greater demonstration of grasp by the Government, this debate may herald a new era for our farming community. It may be the opening up of a range of opportunities that we never dreamed about until now.
  5.15 p.m.
  Sir Richard Nugent: I am very glad to have caught your eye, Sir Gordon, in order to make a short contribution to this debate. This is the first time that I have spoken on agricultural policy since I left the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food in 1957. I feel that this moment is a kind of exceptional interest in the development of agricultural policy.
  I listened with great interest to the hon. Member for Pembroke (Mr. Donnelly). As so often happens on these great issues, I found myself to a very large extent in agreement with what he said. I did not agree, however, with his accusation of complacency among my right hon. Friends. I think that the arguments we have heard deployed, and shall hear deployed, about entry into the Common Market will illustrate how complex this problem is and how difficult it is to determine just where Great Britain's advantage lies. I am sure that it would not be right to accuse my right hon. Friend of complacency. I wish that the general grasp of the situation which the hon. Member for Pembroke had had spread to his right hon. and hon. Friends on the Opposition Front Bench, who seem to be remarkably unclear about their views on agricultural problems.
  Turning to my right hon. Friend, I wish to thank him for an admirable review of our agricultural policy and for a masterly exposition of the picture of the possibilities and implications of entry into the European Community. Change of any kind is an extremely frightening affair to farmers because of the great rigidities of the farming industry. If a manufacturer has to contemplate change it is true that he has capital commitments to consider, but he can change his factory. He can retool his
  70
  factory and produce completely different lines.
  On a farm, a farmer is limited to certain crops. If the land is poor he is probably limited to one or two crops and one form of livestock, and that is all that he can do. Therefore, any change is bound to be an alarming matter for the farmer. Because change is in the air, as it is now, and because anxious voices are raised in some places in the farming community, there is no reason for us to be perturbed. It is our job to try to make an objective assessment of the change and not to be perturbed by voices either on one side or the other which shout that there is danger here or danger there. We must look at the facts.
  I agree with the hon. Member in not believing that our progressive farmers are particularly frightened by this prospect. I believe our progressive farmers are well aware that in many respects of husbandry, both of crop growing and livestock, they are fully competitive with agriculture in Western Europe. The National Farmers' Union has produced an admirable review of the implications of entry into the European Community. It has given comparative prices of the various livestock and husbandry crops which gives some idea of what the price levels in those countries are. It is evident from that that, at any rate in some crops and some forms of livestock, we are completely competitive.
  The small farmer, I agree, is bound to be anxious. His resources are small and his scope for change is already small. Personally, I would not forget his feelings in this matter because, just over thirty years ago, I was starting in the farming world. I had no more resources at that time than I carried in my hands and in my head. I can well remember the anxieties I felt when farming in a small way, both when employed and later starting on one's own.
  These anxieties should not deter us from taking the steps which we believe to be steps in the right direction. I think that there may well be greater dangers for our farming community in staying out of the European Community than in going in.
  I can remember vividly the time, eight year ago, when we were introducing the

  71
  present agricultural policies. It is an implied compliment which touches my heart that today it is welcomed as the sheet-anchor of the farming community, but at that time it was not welcomed. We heard blood-chilling attacks from right hon. and hon. Members opposite who told us that we were dismantling the agricultural economy, that there would be shortages and that prices for the consumer would rocket; and that, on the other hand, there would be consumer surplus and plumetting prices for the farmer. Indeed, we heard great anxiety expressed as we proceeded to do what we thought right to restore free markets, which was the only way of giving the housewife a choice and, by designing the system of deficiency payments to ensure that the farmers had a fair return.
  Step by step over the years from 1953 to 1955 we introduced that system commodity by commodity. I think it fair to say that the General Election of 1955 and 1959 confirmed that we had done the right thing. At the time the voices of gloom and doom assailed us from many sides and many of my hon. Friends were extremely anxious as farmers throughout the country complained of what was happening. I say advisedly, with that memory in my mind, that we should not be too much disturbed if we hear anxious voices raised now.
  My right hon. Friend dealt with the current situation of farm prices in this country. I believe that, irrespective of the prospect of entry into European Community, the time has come when the Government will be obliged to review our existing forms of agricultural price support anyway. I say this having a very full understanding of the philosophy and the immense complexity of the provisions of the deficiency payments system which has served us well.
  The fact is that conditions have changed so much since we introduced the system eight years ago. Production here has increased from an index figure of 140 to 170 over pre-war. At any rate, some commodities which were then scarce are now almost in surplus, if not completely in surplus. This has been combined with the effect of world supplies where a condition of world shortages eight or nine years ago has
  72
  progressively changed into one of world surpluses.
  My right hon. Friend rightly said that the United Kingdom market is actually the only large free market in which to sell food today. Here again, there has been a complete change in the situation from eight years ago, when most Western European countries were crying out for purchases of all the main commodities. One by one those countries have increased their production and gradually closed their markets to surpluses coming from the rest of the world. At the same time, they have been producing surpluses and all those surpluses are now beating on the open doors of our market here. This situation is making a completely different position from the one which we reviewed eight or nine years ago, when introducing the present scheme.
  My right hon. Friend referred to the barley market. When we introduced the present system we were producing about 1½ million or 2 million tons of barley a year. Today, we produce 4 million tons, which is almost all we want, yet barley is pouring in from all over the world and prices are going lower and lower as deficiency payments go higher and higher. It is the same with eggs. Eggs were scarce eight or nine years ago and we had to import them, but now we can produce all we want, and more. There are few commodities now which are technically suitable to be dealt with by the deficiency payments system.
  The deficiency payments system works properly when there is a large factor of import in the total supply of the commodity. That condition still exists in wheat and in carcase meat only. Eight years ago it existed in animal feeding stuffs, in eggs, to a large extent in pigs, and so on. The situation has changed very much. Quite irrespective of going into the European Common Market, it would be inevitable that the Government should look again at this system of price support. If Her Majesty's Government ignore this situation I have no doubt at all about that prediction of the hon. Member for Pembroke would be fulfilled of a rocketing total amount for the subsidy bill which would reach such a high level that it would cause the Government and public opinion generally to lose confidence in the whole

  73
  of the present support system. That situation is with us now. Therefore, quite irrespective of our present consideration of the European Common Market, we are bound to look again at this system of support.
  My right hon. Friend rightly said that we are not considering a change of agricultural policy. The policy remains the same. There are various ways in which we can implement it and if we are considering entry into the European Community we have to remember that the agricultural policy of the Six has even greater needs than ours economically. There, farms are less than half the size of ours and the agricultural community is six, seven, even nine times as great. In Italy, 45 per cent. of the community are engaged in farming compared with our 5 per cent. and in other countries the proportion is in between. We can have no doubt that there agriculture will not be forgotten. There will not be one Jim Turner, but rows of them. The Agricultural Price Review in future will be a European price review. What a spectacle that would be. My right hon. Friend has a very robust character and I hope for the best for him when he goes there, but it will be a very formidable affair.
  The countries of the Six do not have a different agricultural policy from curs. It is precisely the same—to get full production from their farms and to raise the earnings of the agricultural community to a level comparable to those in industry. That is their dilemma, the fact is that we are all doing that and it is resulting in surpluses which we cannot eat. That is one of the reasons for the suggestion that we should try to integrate these agricultural economies and try to get some order in the situation which for us has the greatest danger of all because we are the last free market left to receive those very surpluses.
  Mr. Frederick Peart: The hon. Member keeps stressing the point about surpluses. He may be talking about the rich countries of Western Europe, but I am sure he will know that in southern Italy—where I was concerned in a survey—there are many people who are not obtaining enough food. That occurs all over the world. There are no surpluses there. It is a question of distribution.
  Sir R. Nugent: I do not disagree that the supplies of food in various parts of Europe, and, of course, more still in other parts of the world, are short. The great difficulty is that of disposing of surpluses and the lack of finance to get supplies of food. That limits the extent to which especially livestock products can be moved to other parts of the world. But I do not wish to take too much time in the Committee. I do not wish to leave my main theme and must limit my remarks to these particular points.
  I advisedly make the point that the present system of agricultural price support, good though it is, is not a fixed shelter against all winds from all quarters. It is only a temporary shelter, as it were, an umbrella against passing storms to give time to our farming community to protect it so that it has a chance to adjust its economy. If the storm is continuous, as it threatens to be, we may well be flooded by the floods of milk and eggs coming up round our knees.
  The objection is made that, if we go into the Six, there will be a loss of sovereignty to our agricultural community and a loss of sovereignty to our Government because our policy cannot be entirely in my right hon. Friend's hands. The answer is that we cannot avoid the impact of the agricultural economies of the European countries beating against us by the export of their surpluses here. It is bound to happen, anyhow. To my mind, we may well be better off if our Minister is in at the conference to start with, discussing the various price levels and the volumes of production to come forward, rather than at the end, when the surpluses arrive here, when we cannot protect ourselves against them, the bottom is knocked out of our market, and our farmers are in serious trouble.
  Sir H. Legge-Bourke: I have been enjoying my hon. Friend's speech enormously and I do not want him to go off the rails. Surely, he realises that, if that sort of situation arose, we should have to do what I have been saying for ages that we ought to do, that is, protect ourselves from imports.
  Sir R. Nugent: I thank my hon. Friend for putting me back on the rails again. We do not always see eye to eye completely on these matters. I go this far

  75
  with him, that, if we do not go into the European Common Market, we shall still, in my view, be obliged to review our system of price support—
  Sir H. Legge-Bourke: Yes, I agree.
  Sir R. Nugent: —and that review is bound to include some forms of import control. I agree with my hon. Friend to that extent.
  Sir H. Legge-Bourke: Yes.
  Sir R. Nugent: Various objections have been raised about what effect entry into the Six would have on consumer prices. Of course, it would cause some increase, because the whole machinery in the six countries—
  Mr. E. Shinwell: Seven.
  Sir R. Nugent: I am obliged to the right hon. Gentleman—in the seven countries is to maintain a certain level of price for each commodity in order to get a sufficient return for the farmers. Inevitably, there would be some increase of price here. What that would be is anybody's guess.
  P.E.P., in a pamphlet, published a few weeks ago, said that the increase would be small and argued the case very cogently. During the five to ten years it would take us to become fully integrated into the system, the increase in the consumer price, I think, would not be likely to be very serious. I do not regard that as a serious objection to our taking this step.
  I come now to horticulture. Inevitably, our glasshouse growers are in difficulty as modern forms of transport bring to this country supplies of food of the kind grown here in glasshouses—tomatoes, and so forth—which can be grown in southern climates out in the open. Inevitably, the prices of those commodities are bound to be weakening all the time. From vegetables and fruit crops generally grown in the open, I see no reason at all why the horticulturist here should not continue to earn a good living. I do not think that the horticulturist would be worse off if we were in and, indeed, he might well be better off than he is now, exposed as he is to unregulated quantities flowing into this country, often at the most awkward times.
  76
  I do not know, because I am no expert in these matters, just what is the balance of political and economic interests in the question whether or not Great Britain should go into the Six—the Seven—the European Economic Community. I have a disposition to feel that it might well be to our advantage that we should be in. I am certain that, whether we go in or whether we do not, the Government will be obliged to review the existing forms of price support for the agricultural industry and move very much nearer to the kind of price support system which already exists in the Six. I do not see considerations of agricultural policy as an objection to entering the European Common Market, and I hope that my right hon. Friend will continue, with his customary courage, to take the right decisions as they arise.
  5.35 p.m.
  Mr. J. P. W. Mallalieu: The hon. Member for Guildford (Sir R. Nugent) said that we should look at the facts before coming to any decision about joining the Common Market. That is what I wish to do. The difficulty is that we do not seem to have any facts. The hon. Gentleman did not provide any. The Minister did not provide any. He gave us some strong feelings, but no facts. The little booklet published by the N.F.U. and the little booklet published by P.E.P. are both incomplete collections of the facts.
  Before I made up my mind, I should want to know not merely what are the advantages of joining the Common Market, but what are advantages or disadvantages of not joining the Common Market in terms of the facts. I want that information not only in relation to Britain, not only—least of all—in relation to British agriculture, but in relation to what the effect would be on the Commonwealth, on the Dominions, notably New Zealand, and, beyond that, in relation to what the effect would be upon the emergent nations of Africa. Without those facts, I, in my humble capacity as a back bencher, would not dream of making up my mind now.
  I hesitate to intervene in this debate at all when I face so many hon. Members whom I recognise as experts in agriculture. I am an amateur. My practical experience of farming has been limited

  77
  to seven years, and no farmer I know of would say that my experience was either farming or practical, because I have been dealing with the very smallest of smallholdings. Yet, in that minor sphere, one begins to find out certain things about the industry and to reach certain conclusions.
  One conclusion I have reached from experience is that the farmer's continual complaint about the uncertainty of his industry is wholly unjustified. From my experience, I know as a certainty that, if ever I want machines—a grass dryer, a baler, a combine harvester—everyone else will want those machines at the same time and I shall be last in the queue. I know with absolute certainty that, whether rain is forecast at the moment or not, the moment I turn my hay we shall have rain. I know with final and absolute certainty that if I have something to sell prices will be down, and that if I want to buy prices will be up.
  A word about prices. When we smallholders go into the market to sell, we face Ali Baba and his forty butchers, and the butchers do not bid. It is only Ali Baba who bids, and there is some sort of cut-up between them later. I notice that if, by a fluke, Ali Baba has to pay a fairly high price, the prices of meat in the shops go up at once. But if, as is more usual, he gets away with paying a very low price, prices in the shops remain remarkably stable.
  Because of this situation, smallholders—and, for all I know, small farmers—have to spend a great deal of their time working out market diplomacy, going into the market and bidding themselves, and very often finding that they have to buy in their own stuff and transport it home. All the time spent on market manipulation is time wasted. It is not farming. It is gold brick gambling. The Farmer and Stock-breeder ought to be renamed the "Farmer and Stockbroker", because so many people are more concerned now about the state of the market than they are about the state of their own stocks.
  I very much doubt whether the small farmer—and, still more, the smallholder—has much of a future left in this country, except in one sphere. He has not the capital to buy the machines. Often his land is spread all over an area. It is not adjoining. I know small farmers
  78
  who have half their land up at one end of the village and the other half at the other end of the village. They have to bring their cattle to and fro, wasting time and to the intense annoyance of gardeners on the route. We shall have to consider trying to regroup tenancies and ownerships so that a man's fields adjoin. We must also consider trying to develop and acquire larger units which are more viable than the small units which there are in many places at present.
  I said that there was one sphere in which I thought that the smallholder had a chance. That is in the precarious business of breeding pigs. It is not necessary to own a lot of land for that. On the whole, it is cheaper to buy balanced meal than it is to grow the food. Even this is a haphazard business. If a man wants to breed pigs in the country, he cannot be sure of getting the type of boar he wants. He has to make do with whatever boar is available. I remember the first time that we started pig breeding. We fetched the only boar within miles to our sow. He turned out to be not only very old, but also extremely heavy. As soon as he mounted, both boar and sow sank into the mud. This was no use to me, and I doubt whether it was much use to the sow and the boar.
  Next time, we managed to get hold of a boar which was both lighter and younger, but the difficulty about this was that the poor little thing did not know what we brought him to the sow for. Eventually we found in the neighbourhood a boar which was suitable. I remember driving our sow to him. It took me the best part of a morning. By the time I had finished all the profit on the resultant litter was spent in compensation to gardeners along the way. I have to admit that the second time I took the sow there was no trouble at all. She knew where she was going and I almost had heart failure trying to keep up with her.
  These are some of the hazards of pig breeding in a small way. I suggest to the Minister that it would he worth while for either the Government or for local authorities to set up breeding stations to which sows could be taken or from which boars could be sent so that smallholders engaged in pig breeding would have a chance of getting a decent strain.

  79
  I want now to say a few words about more serious farming than anything in which I have been engaged. It is obvious that mare and more farming will be done by machines. Yet, even with machines, men will be needed—and what men they are! They must be skilled in hedging and ditching. They must be able to use a hook. They must be able to use a scythe. They must be able to milk cows. In some areas this operation is still done by hand. They must be able to drive tractors. They may have to do running repairs on tractors.
  Above all, they must know how to tend animals. In the old days, if a cow had milk fever one bunged a bit of dung on one of her teats and hoped for the best. Today, a farm worker must know how to handle M. and B. and penicillin. He is a highly skilled man not just in one job, but in twenty. But we still call him a farm labourer and pay him labourer's wages. We shall not have a decent agricultural system without men, and we very soon shall not have the men unless we begin to pay them better wages than they have been paid in the past. Men are leaving farming in my area to go to motor factories in Oxford. As floor sweepers on night shift in Pressed Steel or Morris's they can earn £14. What farm worker, except by putting in terrific overtime, can earn anything like that?
  Sir P. Agnew: May I amplify what the hon. Gentleman is now saying? I have had brought to my notice cases in my constituency, in south Worcestershire, in the Midlands area, in which skilled horticulturists were being paid as much as £17 a week—I emphasise that they were skilled—and yet they were handing in their notice in order to go into industry and accept lighter jobs where money was more easily earned.
  Mr. Mallalieu: This state of affairs is not peculiar to Oxford. It happens wherever there are large concentrations of industry near farming land.
  It is not only a question of wages. Years ago we used to think of people who worked in the country as men who went about sucking straws and saying "argh", and women who went hobbling round the kitchen making cider and sewing and knitting clothes for their
  80
  children out of potato sacks. That sort of thing has long passed. The men and women in the countryside today have as many demands for their own lives as have people living in towns. One of the things that they demand is decent housing. Yet how many houses in the country, even today, are without lavatories? I know of some council houses in the area where I live which have lavatories, but they are lean-to lavatories built up against the living room, so that whenever the lavatory is used the living room cannot be used.
  How many houses are there without water? I do not know the figures, but there are still far too many. How many houses are there without bathrooms? This country will not get a prosperous agricultural industry, and efficient men staying in agriculture, unless decent houses are provided. In villages in Buckinghamshire there is no street lighting at all, except a small amount supplied by the postmaster-General—I refer to the illuminated telephone kiosk.
  The Temporary Chairman (Mr. Ronald Russell): Order. The hon. Member is getting rather a long way from the Vote.
  Mr. Mallalieu: I am making the point that unless we make conditions of life in the villages sufficiently attractive we shall not get men into agriculture, and if we do not get men into agriculture—
  The Temporary Chairman: I appreciate that, but I think that the hon. Gentleman is going into too much detail.
  Mr. Peart: As I want to raise this matter later, Mr. Russell, may I argue that in stopping the drift from the land the amenities of the countryside are vital, and that my hon. Friend's argument is really covered?
  The Temporary Chairman: That is not the responsibility of the Minister of Agriculture.
  Mr. Mallalieu: Surely the Minister of Agriculture is responsible for the welfare of agriculture. Even though it may not be his job to provide the services directly, he must be concerned, with other Departments, to see that they are provided. I would urge on the Parliamentary Secretary that his job does not finish with making it possible to have an efficient agricultural industry. He must

  81
  be concerned, also, with things like street lighting and proper bus services. The farmer's wife wants to go into town—
  The Temporary Chairman: Street lighting is the concern of the local authority, not that of the Minister.
  Mr. Mallalieu: I shall not press this, but I should have thought that it was up to the Ministry of Agriculture to make certain that other Departments, and local authorities, were doing their part of the job, without which he cannot do his part of the job.
  However, I will leave that. I will leave, too, the whole question of schools, though that is enormously important at present. In one village in Buckinghamshire there is a parents' strike. Four parents, all engaged in farming, say quite definitely that they will rather go to gaol than send their children to the only school available at present.
  Although there are wonderful things, wonderfully attractive things about life in the countryside which will help to keep people there, there are some enormous disadvantages that must be rectified soon. We talk a great deal about the virtues of the agricultural life, not only for its immediate physical pleasures but also for the philosophy, the calmness and the stability that it brings; the awareness of what mankind is up against, and the almost instinctive knowledge of what life is about. But it is not the slightest use just talking in sentimental terms about life in the countryside. If we really believe that it is good, if we really believe that we want a prosperous agricultural industry, we must not just be sentimental about it, but must do something practical to preserve what we admire.
  5.53 p.m.
  Sir John Maitland: In telling us of the difficulties of living in the country, the hon. Member for Huddersfield, East (Mr. J. P. W. Mallalieu) was expressing the views of many in this Committee. They have been expressed many times before, and I have an awful fear that they will be expressed many times again. He also picked on one or two things that he thought wrong in our present system, as did the hon. Gentleman the Member for Lincoln (Mr. de Freitas).
  82
  I am a little surprised that it is on those lines that the Opposition have chosen to develop their attack on the Government today, because it is no good blinding ourselves to the fact that our agriculture is now facing a very great crisis, indeed. We are very often inclined only to consider the Common Market, but the Common Market is really only one of three great problems facing the industry today. There is the problem of surpluses. There is the problem of agricultural incomes not keeping pace with incomes in other comparable industries. Now, those two problems are joined by the problem of the Common Market.
  First, I want to refer to world surpluses. As the Committee knows, the F.A.O. has recently drawn attention to the fact that in the quite near future there will be world surpluses. Even today there are in Europe surpluses of soft wheat, sugar and milk products, and there will soon be surpluses in everything except beef. This country is the largest single market in the world for food. Of course, the E.E.C. countries together form a larger market for food than do we alone but, speaking of single countries, we are the largest, the most free and the most open market in the world for food. As many hon. Members pointed out, the dangers that must exist to our economy when surpluses are building up are perfectly clear, whether or not we go into the Common Market.
  Many people say that this problem might well be solved by using these surpluses to help the under-nourished and under-development countries—[An HON. MEMBER: "Hear, hear."] Yes, I agree with the sentiment, but I am not certain that it quite works out like that in practice. The trouble is that the shortage from which countries suffer is largely a protein shortage, and that is the one commodity that is in short supply today and will be for many years to come.
  That does not mean that I believe that we should not make greater efforts to collaborate with those who are doing much to help those parts of the world that are suffering from shortages. We might, for example, be a little more energetic about the Freedom from Hunger Campaign. I was not altogether satisfied about the part we played at the

  83
  F.A.O. conference. I know that we have the determination to fulfil all our duties there, but in some curious way, which seems part of our heritage, we made it look in the Report as though we were dragging our feet. As far as possible, we should take a leading part in collaborating in the Freedom from Hunger Campaign.
  Much has been done by America: and Canada has recently agreed to send wheat to China but, in particular, Holland and Germany have taken the lead in using their surplus milk products to supply protein to the undernourished countries, and I join with other hon. Gentlemen who have said that the Government should consider that as a method of disposing of any surplus milk we may have from time to time.
  The fact remains that, almost by definition, an under-developed country is an agricultural country, and what it really needs is help in building up an efficient agriculture and a balanced economy so that it is able to enter the world as a general trader, and buy the things it needs. Nevertheless, though we should take the opportunity to help the under-nourished nations with our surpluses, and work towards that end with other countries that have greater surpluses than we, that cannot be regarded as a long-term answer. This growing pressure of surpluses will remain one of the biggest problems which British agriculture, in particular, will have to continue to face.
  The second problem is that agricultural incomes are not rising as fast as those of other industries. All statistics and research indicate that the gap between agricultural and industrial wages is not closing, but is steadily widening. This point was noted, and attention was drawn to it, in this country in the First Report of the "Three Wise Men" who commented on the effects it is having on British agriculture. It is fair to mention, of course, that in other European countries the un-balance is far worse.
  When one considers the high proportion of the populations of European countries engaged in agriculture, it is not difficult to see the political dangers that could easily arise. For example, in
  84
  France, which has a population comparable with our own, about 25 per cent. of the population is engaged in agriculture—a larger number of people than the total number of trade unionists who are affiliated to the British T.U.C. That makes one realise the problems that are facing France and, while hon. Members may not agree with that country, we must sympathise with her problems when she wants us to obey certain rules if we enter the Common Market.
  It is against the background of these two problems that we should consider our possible entry into the Common Market. At the moment, as many hon. Members have indicated, the matter is really rather vague, because we are having so much said and written about the Common Market that ignorance is rapidly changing to bewilderment.
  In almost every piece of literature one picks up one reads—whether it be in the heavy intellectual weeklies or even in cartoons—something about the Common Market, and, always in the background, one seems to see the figure of Lord Gladwyn beckoning one on like a rather elderly Rhine maiden to what one hopes will not be destruction.
  It is rather curious, so far as agriculture is concerned, that the Dutch and French, which are the great exporting nations in the E.E.C., place such emphasis on adherence to the exact letter of a solution which is, at present, untried and the details of which are unsettled. Mr. Biesheuvel, whom many people know and who is one of the leading figures in the E.E.C.'s Agricultural Committee, recently said:
  "People who think in terms of special agricultural bilateral arrangements between the Six countries of the Common Market and the Seven countries of the Free Trade Association are indulging in idle dreams."
  But that, of course, goes right against what the Minister has just said he regards as one of the prerequisites of our own entry into the Common Market. Other leading figures have said the same sort of thing, but there seems to be some doubt in the arguments they use to support their views. Recently, when Dr. Mansholt addressed a very large gathering in the Grand Committee Room in Westminster Hall, he made it quite plain that the main reason why we should adhere to the rules and why we should

  85
  alter our system of price support, was that it gave us an advantage in food prices which would affect our power to compete industrially.
  On the other hand, the late Minister for Agriculture for Holland, Mr. Vondeling, when speaking in London recently, at Church House at the Western European Union Assembly, quoted from the recently produced P.E.P. pamphlet—an excellent document—to show that Britain's food prices were lower than those of some countries at present in the E.E.C.; that they were in fact inside the average food prices of the Community.
  It seems, therefore, that the two arguments just do not make sense. We should be very careful before we attempt to alter our present system of agricultural support. It is, after all, something very typical of our British political way of getting things done. Both parties have played an equal part in producing our present support system, and the farmers themselves have played a tremendously important part in it. It is something that suits our methods and our economy and, although I agree that perhaps there may have to be some changes, we should hang on to this method as hard as we can.
  The Prime Minister has made it perfectly plain, and the Minister has today underwritten it, that we will not go into the Common Market until we have definite assurances and until we know exactly what are the terms. At the same time—and here I agree with what several hon. Members have said on the matter—it is inevitable that, whether we go in or stay out, things will not remain as they are today. Whether we like it or not, we are turning a page in history and we must have new policies and new emphasis if we are to improve our position.
  But among all these problems, which are so difficult to solve, one factor is outstandingly true. We cannot go wrong if we increase the self-sufficiency of our farmers. I use the expression "self-sufficiency" rather than efficiency, because the word "efficiency" irritates me when I think of husbandmen with great knowledge, who are working all the hours of the day and yet who are told to be more efficient.
  We must try to make our farmers more able to compete, and that means more capital. We must face the fact
  86
  that agricultural support in the future may have to be increased. If we go into the Common Market it is essential that we go in able to compete and that we go in happily. If we enter unhappily for any reason, whether it be for agricultural or Commonwealth problems or whatever the reason be, we shall completely disrupt the unity of the West, and an unhappy member of the Common Market might even destroy the Common Market itself.
  That is why, in this crisis which is facing agriculture, we have got to make preparation and get ready to meet the challenge facing us. That means further capital injection. That is important if we go into the Common Market, and it may well be even more important if we stay out.
  6.11 p.m.
  Mr. Jeremy Thorpe: The hon. Member for Horncastle (Sir J. Maitland) is a colleague of mine in Western European Union. He has a wide knowledge and interest in European affairs, and I was particularly interested to hear his dissertation upon the agricultural policies in some of the European countries. Having said that I agree with much of what he said about surpluses, I think I can now indulge in the luxury of saying that I disagree with practically everything else he said.
  The hon. Member for Guildford (Sir R. Nugent) gave us some fresh thinking—at any rate, fresh thinking from that side of the Committee—on this subject, and the right hon. Gentleman the Minister made a very fair appraisal of the pros and cons of the Common Market. I would only say that that was a speech which should have been made at least four years ago.
  I stand aghast at the speech of the hon. Member for Lincoln (Mr. de Freitas); I was aghast and astounded. [Interruption.] The noble Lord the Member for Dorset, South (Viscount Hinchingbrooke) was not here. He had not left his club to give us the benefit of his attendance. The hon. Member for Lincoln ignored the fact that the really burning issue today which concerns farmers is whether or not they should go into the Common Market; what it is about; the effect it would have on their income; what would be the advantages of their exclusion, and the difficulties of entry.
  Mr. de Freitas: That was my point, that we had not been provided by the Government with any of the data on which the agricultural community, like anybody else, could make up their minds as to the effect that entry into the Common Market would have on the agricultural community.
  Mr. Thorpe: I see that it is necessary to give the hon. Member an essay on constitutional history. In the House there are two parties. Sometimes there are three. One of them is the Government and the other is the Opposition. If the Government have failed to rise to the occasion on any particular point, if they have failed to give a lead, if they have failed to keep up with events, it becomes the job of the Opposition to push the Government into action.
  For the Opposition to say that because the Government have been stupid and because they have given no information the Opposition need do nothing at all, if that is how the Opposition see fit to discharge their obligations, the sooner they clear out from the Opposition Front Bench and make way for others the better. [Interruption.] We shall be there; I can assure hon. Members that we shall be there. What do we have from the hon. Member for Lincoln—Dutch tomatoes, milk bread, sliced bacon, dirty fish crates and bulk storage tanks—titbits from the Opposition.
  So much for the Opposition. What about the Government? It is a relief that at last the significance of the Common Market upon agriculture is being fully and freely debated in the House.
  Mr. Harold Davies: Not fully yet.
  Mr. Thorpe: The hon. Member for Leek (Mr. Harold Davies) should wait. I will try to throw some light on this subject.
  There have been few subjects which have received less attention and upon which there have been more comments based upon uninformed prejudice. There was a time in the House when it was almost necessary to assure hon. Members that the Messina Powers had no connection with the brothers of the same name. I should like to consider the pros and cons not merely of entering the Common Market but of exclusion from
  88
  it. I advocated in my constituency at the last election quite clearly the entry of Britain into the Common Market and, in particular, the entry of agriculture into the Common Market. The matter has been raised from this bench, not merely on the Adjournment, by my hon. Friend the Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond). The Liberal Party has twice divided the House. The only hon. Member outside the Liberal Party who, to his eternal credit, thought that it was a matter of pressing importance was the hon. Member for Pembroke (Mr. Donnelly). But from the rest of the House we met with derision.
  Upon this issue the Government have totally failed to give a lead. It is only on these benches that this six has consistently advocated joining the Six across the Channel. There is no doubt that agriculture is worried and concerned about the Common Market, and those fears have largely been stirred up by the sort of speeches that Conservative Members and Ministers have been making throughout the country on the question of the Common Market. On 4th October, 1959, at the height of the General Election, the President of the Board of Trade said:
  "We never dreamed of joining the Common Market. If we joined it we would have to abolish all tariff protection for agriculture and horticulture. It would mean the end of the system of annual price reviews. British farmers should realise that in these circumstances they would be given no support without the approval of our continental neighbours."
  The amount by which the President of the Board of Trade has shifted ground on the question of the Common Market, and particularly upon agriculture, is possibly the explanation why he is regarded in Europe as the quintessence of Perfide Albion.
  Then there was the hon. Member for Torquay (Mr. F. M. Bennett). He left the rural fastnesses of Torquay in the last election and went to the constituency of the hon. Member for Torrington (Mr. P. Browne) and said this about agriculture:
  "If there was one subject on which he would claim to speak with some degree of expert knowledge, it was about the implication of this, as he had been a Parliamentary Private Secretary to the Cabinet Minister responsible for these matters during the past two years."

  89
  He went on to say:
  "One of the principal reasons why Britain, under a Conservative Government—and he had to concede that most leading Socialists agreed with their policy on this issue—had insisted that further economic co-operation in Europe could only be via an industrial Free Trade Area, not a Common Market, was that, under the former, Britain would remain free to decide her own agricultural policy."
  He added:
  "…this one sentence in Liberal policy if implemented would bring ruin to the British farmer and farming workers throughout the country"
  That was the voice of doom in Torquay.
  Mr. F. M. Bennett: I am grateful to the hon. Member for letting me know by note that he was going to say this. He has claimed that the Liberal Party throughout has always advocated joining the Common Market. What he has not said is that in agricultural constituencies they were extremely slow on what the implications were. All I did was to read out a series of comments about the price reviews and so on which are extremely factual, if one studies the Treaty of Rome. The hon. Gentleman's indignation about my remarks can be attributed to the fact that the speech I made created so much stir in the area that local Liberal candidates were put in some difficulty and one failed to return to the House.
  Mr. Thorpe: I have my election address here—a very good one, and evidently the majority of the electorate thought so, too. I can assure the hon. Gentleman that the implications of agriculture entering the Common Market were fairly put forward in the same way that we have put them forward on every other single issue of European integration, from the Coal and Steel Community right down the line.
  Mr. John Morris: Can the hon. Gentleman tell us in how many agricultural constituencies the attitude of the Liberal Party was made clear?
  Mr. Thorpe: I think I am correct in saying that in every agricultural constituency in which the Liberal Party fielded a candidate—[An HON. MEMBER: "It was not many."] I know that there is a contempt for minorities. Fortunately, there are some people in this Committee who are democrats. As I was saying, in every constituency in which the Liberal Party fielded a candidate, we clearly
  90
  stated that we were in favour of going into the Common Market and that this was necessary for British agriculture. I do not know whether the hon. Member for Tavistock (Sir H. Studholme) is about to take off, but he will confirm that his opponent, Mr. Moore, put forward that point of view in the Tavistock Division.
  Mr. Bennett: The hon. Gentleman has quoted from his election address. Is he saying that he said in his election address, or in any speeches—if he is, my recollection is at fault—that if we entered the Common Market there would be an ending, among other things, of the Annual Price Review?
  Mr. Thorpe: Yes, I did.
  Mr. Bennett: In the election address?
  Mr. Thorpe: I am pleased at this interest from the hon. Gentleman in my election addres. I do not intend to waste the time of the Committee by going through it in its entirety. The hon. Gentleman's election address must have been very long-winded if he went into all the details.
  Mr. Bennett: Enough said.
  Mr. Thorpe: I made it perfectly plain, and I will provide the hon. Gentleman with the Press cuttings from the Western Morning News of the speeches which I made at the last election which clearly set that out. I could not be fairer than that.
  Even as late as October, 1960, the Home Secretary, who is getting a reputation for making bad speeches covering every other Department but his own, said:
  "The European Common Market would not he suitable for Britain. It would mean much higher prices in the shops and consequent inflation. It was largely for these reasons that we joined E.F.T.A. and not the Common Market."
  It seems that the right hon. Gentleman is prepared to bring one country closer to Europe, but not ours.
  The Prime Minister has hedged and prevaricated on this subject. This is particularly clear at Question Time.
  Mr. Harold Davies: That is fair enough.
  Mr. Thorpe: We always know when the Prime Minister is in difficulties. His eyes become almost completely hooded.

  91
  His voice is practically inaudible. Just as the Duke of Newcastle left the premiership with the nickname "Hubble-bubble", so will the Prime Minister leave it with the name "Mumble-bumble". On no other issue could he have failed to give less effective leadership than on this.
  If clear and conclusive proof is wanted, last September a colleague of mine went to the Ministry of Agriculture and asked for the comparative prices between farm products in this country and those in the Common Market. He was told that those figures were not available but that possibly an inquiry could be made of the Board of Trade. The Board of Trade said that those figures were not available. My colleague said, "Tory Ministers have been stumping the country saying that entry would ruin British agriculture. Surely they must have backed up their arguments with the benefit of economic facts and figures". But still the figures were not available. He therefore went to Brussels and obtained the figures from the Commission in Brussels and sent them to the Ministry of Agriculture, which acknowledged receipt of them with gratitude. That is the sort of bumbling which we have had on this subject from a Tory Government.
  Now, at last, a change is preceptible. We had the speech of the Lord Privy Seal on 17th May, in which he said:
  "…British agriculture as a whole, as its post-war record shows, is in a sound state to contemplate participation in a common agricultural policy, provided that that participation is on equal terms as part of an enlarged European Economic Community. The British farmer is efficient and competitive."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 17th May, 1961; Vol. 640, c. 1394.]
  That is a far cry from the President of the Board of Trade, from the hon. Member for Torquay and from the Home Secretary.
  The next day, the Joint Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs said:
  "Undoubtedly, some changes in emphasis in our production policy might follow, but there is no reason to assume that, in total, our farmers would stand to suffer under a system which would be worked out between the Six and ourselves. Indeed, it is very difficult to explain how Western Germany, with its high-cost production, can accept membership of the Six in the agricultural field if Britain cannot"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 18th May, 1961; Vol. 640, c. 1575.]
  92
  Again, I agree with the Joint Under-Secretary of State, as I agreed with the Lord Privy Seal. It is only a pity that they were not saying what they are saying now four years ago when the Treaty of Rome was signed. However, perceptibly the Conservative Party is accepting the inevitability of Britain going into the Common Market—[HON. MEMBERS: "No."]—although I accept that 60, 70 or 80—who knows?—hon. Members will stand out against it.
  But we know what happens when the Tory Party is subject to stresses and strains. There is a lot of noise and half-a-dozen resignations from the Whip. But back they come, whether it be over Suez or the Common Market. However, I am sure that the Chief Whip is not losing much sleep on this issue.
  Mr. Norman Cole: Can the hon. Gentleman say—I am not trying to be clever—whether the farmers in his constituency concur in the view that we should have gone into the Common Market a long time ago, or that we should go into it now?
  Mr. Thorpe: The hon. Gentleman asks me whether the farmers in my constituency concur with the view that I am putting forward about entry into the Common Market. I think that it is true to say that there is a division of opinion about it in the agricultural community, and that there are farmers who are opposed to it. However. I believe that, for the most part, their opposition is based on fear of the unknown. I have been going round my constituency addressing, at my own request, branches of the National Farmers' Union. When both sides of the case were put to them, I found that opposition, which one expected, was certainly very much less than anticipated.
  If it is any guide—and the hon. Members for Tavistock and Torrington will concur in this—the other day certain Members of Parliament representing Devonshire constituencies met representatives of the National Farmers' Union. They still expressed some anxiety, but at the end of the meeting they said that many of their fears had been set at rest.
  Mr. Percy Browne: The hon. Gentleman must be fair. That was a private meeting, but, since he has mentioned it in public in this Committee.

  93
  I think that it is fair to tell him exactly what happened and to put it on record.
  Mr. Thorpe: May I just interrupt the hon. Gentleman—
  Mr. Browne: No, I do not think the hon. Gentleman can. I am interrupting him.
  The Temporary Chairman: We cannot have both hon. Members on their feet at the same time.
  Mr. Thorpe: May I assure the hon. Gentleman that I was merely quoting from published Press reports?
  Mr. Browne: I disagree. The hon. Gentleman was quoting a minority opinion of his own. What in fact happened was this. A Press statement was agreed but with which the hon. Member for Devon, North (Mr. Thorpe) disagreed. What the Devonshire farmers said was that they would be quite happy at the thought of going into the Common Market so long as there were negotiations beforehand which gave them what they wanted—security. What the hon. Member for Devon, North said was that we must sign on the dotted line first and negotiate afterwards. That is something quite different.
  Mr. Thorpe: I assure the hon. Gentleman that I am not asserting that that suggestion of mine met with favour. I have not expressed a view one way or the other.
  Mr. Browne: The hon. Gentleman implied it.
  Mr. Thorpe: I think that it is fair to say from reading the Press reports that at the end of the day a large portion of the anxiety which the farming com-community clearly felt had been partially removed as a result of question and answer and the discussions which took place. I do not wish to go any further. I do not think that that is going outside the purport of the Press reports.
  I suggest that this is not a choice of either going into the Common Market or remaining outside it and enjoying the present conditions which we have in British agriculture. That has been re-echoed throughout many of the speeches today. Secondly, it is impossible to consider the advantage for agriculture of going in in isolation. One has to consider the rest of the economy
  94
  and the bearing that it would have on British agriculture.
  One must also consider whether the obligations which the Government have under the 1947 and 1957 Acts could be discharged, albeit in a different form, by the philosophy and the assurances contained in the Treaty of Rome. I shall deal with that presently. The Government must also be quite plain which branches of agriculture will be adversely affected if we go into the Common Market and they must work out, if we go in, how long a period will be needed for harmonisation of farm prices and production.
  One thing about which we must be quite clear is that there is no possibility of a sort of E.F.T.A. compromise. We have tried that and it failed. If we enter the Common Market, we must accept harmonisation of prices, a European agricultural policy and a common external tariff. Those things must be accepted. It would be dishonest to pretend to the farming community that there is some sort of halfway house.
  Mr. Douglas Jay: The hon. Member claims to be giving us the official policy of the Liberal Party. Can he tell us this: is the Liberal Party prepared to apply to British food imports the high import duties which are now contained in the common external tariff of the Six? That is the issue.
  Mr. Thorpe: The right hon. Gentleman is not entitled to talk of high external tariffs, because the height of those tariffs has still to be worked out. It will be worked out in the autumn. Therefore, if the right hon. Gentleman is asking me what the policy would be towards those tariffs, I would say that they should be as low as possible [Laughter.] Certainly. It is perfectly logical. If we believe in free trade, we should see that tariffs get lower and lower until, eventually—
  Mr. Jay: Is the hon. Member not aware that these levels have been worked out and that, in general, they vary between 20 and 25 per cent.? The figures are all in HANSARD. Is the Liberal Party prepared to accept them or not?
  Mr. Thorpe: I suppose that the right hon. Gentleman is talking of a 20 per cent. tariff, for example, in regard to wheat?
  Mr. Jay: Certainly.
  Mr. Thorpe: That has been abolished. It is now a question of straight levies. The right hon. Gentleman is not clear on his facts. The level of external tariff has still to be negotiated. It will be negotiated when the Commission meets in the autumn and confrontation takes place.
  Sir H. Legge-Bourke: Does the statement that the hon. Member has just made mean that the Liberal Party has abandoned the policy which it has repeatedly put forward, especially through the mouth of the hon. Member for Bolton, West (Mr. Holt), now sitting beside the hon. Member, that the Liberal Party believes in a spontaneous gesture of reducing all tariffs on imports into Britain by 50 per cent.?
  Mr. F. M. Bennett: Answer this one straight.
  Mr. Thorpe: If the hon. Member will keep quiet I will try to answer the very proper question of the hon. Member for the Isle of Ely (Sir H. Legge-Bourke). The Liberal Party has always believed, and, I hope, always will continue to believe, in free trade. That means that one operates in a condition of a free economy and that ultimately industries will not artificially be protected by tariffs, quotas, price rings and the like. We take the view that the best way to stimulate that process, and the best way to stimulate the country's economy, is by going into the Common Market, by applying for membership under Article 237. Once Britain is in the Common Market, it would, I hope, be our intention to see that those external tariffs are kept as low as possible and, ultimately, that the Common Market would expand to embrace America and eventually South America, so that one is working towards a condition of total free trade. That is perfectly logical. By going into Europe in this way, the amount of national sovereignty that we would cede, the amount of decisions which we would take collectively on questions of tariffs, would be the contribution that this country could make to the freest possible condition of trade in the world.
  I intended to be brief, but I have been interrupted a number of times. I quite understand that hon. Members opposite have not been able to get all
  96
  the information from the Front Bench that they wanted. I will endeavour to be brief in the remainder of what I have to say. First, what are the advantages and disadvantages of exclusion from the Common Market? The Common Market is the largest collective importer of foodstuffs in the world. One-third of the total world food exports is absorbed by the Common Market. Put at its lowest, the common external tariff, the levy system and the quota system which will be operated under the Treaty of Rome will make it more difficult, and not easier, for food exporting countries outside the Common Market to sell their goods in Europe. It is for that reason that Denmark has taken the view that if she is excluded from the Common Market, she will face real difficulty with regard to her agricultural exports.
  Canada exports 30 per cent. of her wheat to the Common Market countries. Thirty per cent. of Ghana's total exports, mostly cocoa, go to the Common Market countries. Australia's exports to the Common Market are worth £16 million, which are not as much as her exports to the United Kingdom, but they are of a sufficient size to have economic effect. Kenya, Uganda, India and Ceylon, all producers of tropical foodstuffs, have large and expanding markets in the Common Market, which would become more difficult, as opposed to easier, if they were excluded from the Common Market.
  Mr. J. T. Price: Will the hon. Member give way to me?
  Mr. Thorpe: No, because I have already been interrupted fifteen times.
  Mr. Price: These are generalisations—
  Mr. Thorpe: I am glad that the hon. Member should understand and digest what I say. That is my intention.
  That was what Lord Netherthorpe had in mind in January, 1960, when he said that if Britain was excluded from the Common Market this country would be at the receiving end of world surpluses. The same point was put with great clarity by the Joint Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs in the debate on 18th May, when he said:
  "By the very nature of our present policies, Britain tends to be the residual market to which world food surpluses gravitate at the present time."

  97
  That is perfectly correct, and I agree with the hon. Gentleman 100 per cent. He continued:
  "It follows, therefore, that if production in the Six were in increase, foodstuffs they had hitherto been importing would tend to be diverted to our market and any surpluses that arose within the Six would incline towards us, with a resulting pressure on our market and on the cost of Exchequer support."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 18th May, 1961; Vol. 640, c. 1573.]
  That is perfectly correct. Therefore, if we are excluded, if hon. Members are in favour of exclusion, they must bear in mind the fact that not only will we face the surpluses from Europe, but that there will also be surpluses from those countries which used to export to the Common Market which will be kept out. Already, we are feeling the effect of surpluses in regard to Russian and French barley without even the operation of exclusion from the Common Market. This could lead to a subsidy bill, expressed in deficiency payments, of between £400 million and £700 million. [HON. MEMBERS: "Rubbish".]
  If that bill was presented to the taxpayers at a time when British industry was suffering a decline as a result of our exclusion from the Common Market—and we are already feeling the effect of American investment being diverted to Europe and not to Britain, and British firms expanding in Europe and not in Britain—there would be great danger that an industrial nation would want to sacrifice British agriculture. I think that could mean a very dangerous situation for British agriculture.
  If that is the danger of exclusion, let me briefly examine the effect of going into the Common Market. The first suggestion is that the price of food will go up. On this the Agricultural Research Institute of Oxford has suggested that it might go up by as much as 1s. per head per week; the cost of living would go up approximately 0·9 per cent. However, in my view, the two factors which those who deplore the increased prices of food overlook are, first, the lower cost of manufactured imports. If one bears in mind that the average tariff on manufactured imports is 17½ per cent. in this country, it will mean that the consumer will correspondingly get cheaper manufactured products; then I believe that the increase in the price of food is not such a terrifying prospect as was thought.
  98
  And also this: if one bears in mind that British agriculture will almost indubitably be able to continue to enjoy production grants which run at approximately £100 million, and that the deficiency payments, which run at £153 million, will no longer be paid because the farmers—[Interruption.]—if the right hon. Gentleman has only just discovered this he has got a long way to go.
  Mr. Jay: I was interested.
  Mr. Thorpe: The £153 million we pay out at the moment in deficiency payments will be replaced by the fact that the consumer will be paying a higher market price for his goods, so the farmers will be getting remuneration not from deficiency payments but from the prices of food the consumer pays. If that is so, I would believe that it would be the duty of any Government to make the necessary increase in old-age pensions, in family allowances and in widows' pensions, which would absorb the increase in the price of food.
  Mr. Walter Monslow: I agree with the hon. Gentleman's last few words, but what guarantee have we that all that will follow? The hon. Gentleman has given us no indication about what should happen about wages, and to my mind, at any rate, his argument is incomplete.
  Mr. Thorpe: The position is that it has to be accepted that, if one is going into a Common Market, the present basis of support to agriculture will have to change. One has to accept that. To some hon. Members that may be a reason against going into the Common Market, but the method of supporting European agriculture is quite different from our method of supporting ours. Ours, of course, is basically deficiency payments; theirs is basically target prices, in which the consumer pays a slightly higher price for his food. What I am suggesting—and I hope that this answers the hon. Member—is that although I accept that there will be an increase in the cost of food I assert that it will be more than offset by the cheaper prices of the manufactured products which we have to import. I think that there is a strong argument that farmers will be able to buy at a cheaper price many of the raw materials which they need for their

  99
  trade. We shall be discussing a fertiliser subsidy tonight, and I am not going to get out of order by discussing it now, but that subsidy could largely be abolished if the farmers could buy fertilisers in the largest market, particularly France.
  Therefore, I believe that we have to assess the comparative balance of advantage and disadvantage of going in, and therefore I come to the other point. If we are going into the Common Market—
  Mr. Prior: The hon. Gentleman is saying that farmers will be able to buy fertilisers cheaper as a result of getting rid of tariffs on imported goods, but a minute before that he said that production grants would not be touched by this. Does he realise that fertilisers are the subject of production grants and would be touched?
  Mr. Thorpe: Certainly. Of course I know that fertilisers are the subject of production grants. I am not suggesting that we are rigid. Production grants—[Laughter.]—is it for hon. Member opposite a laughable suggestion to make that they are not rigid? Production grants are changing year in and year out. Dr. Mansholdt, the Vice-President of the Commission, has said in his recent speech at Europe House that, by and large, production grants would be permissible under the Treaty of Rome and that, by and large, existing production grants would be continuable and unlikely to be changed. I am not being rigid. It may be that there may be a variation here or a variation there.
  The other matter one must face quite plainly is that if we go into the Common Market the system of the Annual Price Review will go. As I have indicated, the existing method of support of agriculture will be changed. That, of course, touches on questions of sovereignty, and I know that on this issue there is a clear division of opinion on both sides of the Committee.
  We in my party have always tended to be in favour of any move towards greater integration and co-operation in Europe. That is why we supported the European Coal and Steel Community and the idea of Euratom and the European Defence Community, which Sir
  100
  Anthony Eden killed, and now the idea of the Common Market.
  Sir P. Agnew: No.
  Viscount Hinchingbrooke: This is a travesty of the facts.
  Mr. Thorpe: If the noble Lord will not try to shout me down I will explain. The French threw out the European Defence Community in August, 1953. The reason why they threw it out was that they were not prepared to go into a European army unless Britain was a partner. Britain originally acted upon the call for a European army which came from the right hon. Member for Woodford (Sir W. Churchill) and then we boycotted the negotiations and discussions—
  The Deputy-Chairman (Major Sir William Anstruther-Gray): Order. I think that it would be better to come back to the question of agriculture.
  Mr. Thorpe: I would say on this question of sovereignty in regard to agriculture and the Price Review, on which there are points of view on both sides, that again, in arguing whether or not it is right to change the method of support, we shall have to look to the philosophy of the European Common Market and ask ourselves what sort of livelihood this will provide.
  The right hon. Gentleman quoted from—I think it was—Article 39 of the Treaty of Rome which set out the objectives which the Community has in regard to agriculture, and certainly on paper those objectives are not dissimilar from our own. This is the point which the hon. Member for Guildford clearly brought out in his speech. I would also suggest that when one is considering whether those objectives are likely to be achieved in the case of British agriculture we should bear in mind certain factors. First, that on the average the acreage of British farms is much higher than the average acreage of farms in Europe. The average is 70 here and in Europe it is 25. Secondly, we are as an industry far more highly mechanised than our European counterparts. The figures are approximately 2·5 workers per tractor here, and 8·6 in the Common Market. Moreover, all Governments in Europe give some form of assistance to their agricultural communities and are

  101
  no more likely to abandon those communities than we are to abandon ours in this country. We should also bear in mind that politically the farming community is far stronger in Europe in so far as it represents a far higher percentage of the share of national employment: it is 4·7 in this country rising to very nearly 40 per cent. in Italy. Therefore, I believe, to put it at its lowest, that the farm lobby in Europe will be very much more powerful than the farm lobby over here.
  Therefore, I cannot foresee that Article 39 will not be lived up to. I think that we shall find that the attempt to raise the standard of living in Europe will go forward successfully.
  The only other matter I would mention is this. It is perfectly true that there is still vagueness about the harmonisation period, about the size and the extent of the external tariff and about the extent of the internal regulations among member countries. But that, in a sense, is an advantage, because Britain still has the opportunity of going in and negotiating these matters. I believe that they will be settled, for better or worse, this autumn. Therefore, if Britain is going in she will have to make a decision very soon, indeed even before the House rises for the Summer Recess.
  Inquiries are being made in the constituencies by the Conservative Central Office. I have seen one of the forms which are being sent out to try to find out what the opinion is. The Government will have to do a great deal of educating. They have had a rest for four years and now they will have to make up for lost time. They will also have to tackle Sir Anthony Eden. I suggest that the Prime Minister should treat this speech as "a little local difficulty." The Government will have to bring out a White Paper and make perfectly plain a comparison of cost of production between the British product and that of European countries. They must tell the farmers what is likely to be the competitive capacity of British agriculture compared with that of the Six. Everybody has produced figures. The only people who have failed so far are the Government.
  The Government must tell us what expansion will be possible within the framework of the Common Market.
  102
  They must decide which branches of agriculture will be adversely affected and they must plan accordingly. They must consider whether they can discharge their obligations to agriculture under the 1947 and 1957 Acts within the framework of the Common Market and they must do the thinking that they should have done years ago.
  The only hope for an extended agriculture in this country, for a secure agriculture and for an agriculture which can work to a fixed plan is within the European Common Market. If we are excluded from it we shall become the dumping ground for the whole world. We shall see a contraction in the country's agricultural economy, and an industrially declining economy will sacrifice agriculture before any other side of the economy. I believe, therefore, that it is in the interest of agriculture that we should go into the Common Market. I congratulate the Minister on at least doing some thinking on this question. I hope that he will persuade his colleagues now to do likewise.
  6.52 p.m.
  Mr. Neil Marten: I will not follow in this debate the somewhat lengthy "mumble-bumble" of the hon. Member for Devon, North (Mr. Thorpe). I regard the Liberal Party as a whole rather like six moths drawn irresistibly to the seductive, flickering candlelight of Europe at the moment. I regret that the hon. Member attacked my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade. No one is less perfidious than my right hon. Friend. In his cross-talk with the hon. Member for Lincoln (Mr. de Freitas), the hon. Member for Devon, North said that his party would be soon sitting on the "Opposition Front Bench". I am glad to note that that is the limit of the ambition of the Liberal Party.
  We might now get on with agriculture. I am no farmer. But since I have been the Member for North Oxfordshire I have tried to study farming from the economic point of view. The area which I represent is one which does not have a very rich soil. Farmers there meet problems which are typical of many met throughout the country, and my interim observations on farming are largely addressed to the problem of the small farmer—I mean by this the man who

  103
  farms about 100 acres. His great problem is that, as things are, he cannot make enough profit to reinvest in his farm. He cannot cut his labour costs because very often the man who farms 100 acres does so with the help of his wife and son and he cannot cut this labour force. He can increase his profits only by taking some action which may be thoroughly bad husbandry such as not doing his hedging and ditching one year. That is not a good thing for the long-term haul of agriculture. Alternatively, he can do it by over-intensive production which, in the long run, may well upset the balance of nature. Again he cannot react to the violent changes in the market. His manœuvrability in the market and his ability to change direction in his line of production are limited because of his restricted acreage.
  The small farmer cannot often solve his problems by extending the size of his farm. In North Oxfordshire, the small farmer in many cases would like to buy an adjacent farm, but when it comes on the market there are a great number of people with much more money who will pay a fantastic price for it in an effort to obtain some alleviation from death duties. If my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture could bring pressure to bear upon his colleague the Chancellor of the Exchequer to do something in the next Budget about reducing death duties it would have great and beneficial effect upon the price of land in the countryside.
  This is a cul-de-sac in which the small farmer finds himself. Small profits force him to try to increase production and that lands the country with a substantial surplus of food.
  This is not a case where the Government should only allow the cold winds of economics to blow through and sweep the problem away, because the small farmer is unable to appreciate the problem against the general national and international background. The Government should give a lead to the industry by reviewing their whole policy on the treatment of small farmers. It has been said in the course of the debate that we should encourage amalgamation and co-operation between small farmers. It would be difficult; but I think that eventually it would be effective.
  104
  We should consider helping elderly farmers to retire if they so wished. There might be some way by which we could help them on condition that on their retirement the farm then went into some co-operative scheme or was amalgamated to achieve the ends we might have in view. The local authorities have, I believe, about 400,000 acres of smallholdings and they could set an example by amalgamations.
  The farming industry might help in solving this problem by setting up certain standards of quality such as those now set up by the County Quality Bacon Association and by establishing standards of marketing which, we must all agree, are needed. I should like to see, for example, some young farmers before settling down for good on their farms doing three or six months' duty behind the counter in super-markets to see what they will be selling and what the housewife wants to buy. The industry could also set up certain standards of management by giving awards for efficient management. I hope that the Government and the farming community will jointly find a solution to this problem.
  I must end, as have so many other hon. Members, with a comment on the Common Market. My right hon. Friend the Lord Privy Seal said in a recent debate on foreign affairs that
  "…there are indications…that the Community might be ready to consider the possibility of modifications in its present proposals for a common agricultural policy in order to go some way to meet us."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 17th May, 1961; Vol. 640, c. 1394.]
  Before agreeing to an association we must know a great deal more than that. We must be quite certain what these modifications are. In a situation of this kind, involving British agriculture and the Commonwealth, with all its political implications, there is no room whatsoever for vagueness.
  7.0 p.m.
  Mr. Harold Davies: In a way, this debate illustrates what will happen to our agricultural debates over the next few years. There will be no constructive policy for British agriculture—let me be fair—on the part of any Government that happen to get into power in the next three or four years unless some constructive decision is taken about the problem of the Common

  105
  Market. Already the entire issue of British agriculture has been left completely high and dry.
  I did not agree with some of the criticisms which we heard from a representative of the Liberal Party. I thought that my hon. Friend the Member for Lincoln (Mr. de Freitas) had the right to make reference to the milk quota, which is of fundamental importance to farmers in my hilly constituency. If we are to devote an entire debate to the theory of the Common Market while 12,000 people a year are leaving our agriculture, this is an airy-fairy House of Commons. That is a fact; in March, 1961, we had 12,000 fewer workers on the land than in March, 1960.
  Let us not bother with jibes. The job of the Opposition is to oppose. I object to my party all the time laying down an accurate policy when we are in opposition—a policy which one can prove like the Theorum of Pythagoras when we cannot, in fact, prove it at all because we are in opposition and do not have the official statistics.
  Mr. Arthur Holt: But one can have a view.
  Mr. Davies: I have a view. We must have a view and the courage to oppose. That is different from being jockeyed into the position of saying what we would do at the moment. We are not in power. We will do what the right hon. Member for Woodford (Sir W. Churchill) said: when we are in power and have all the facts we will say what we will do.
  The Government have been very unfair about their milk policy. If we want to encourage British agriculture to grow, men must grow with it and there must be opportunities for the little men to begin in a small way. Therefore, there must always be the small farms to enable the young men to grow up in agriculture, and to provide the opportunity for the expanding economy about which Conservative spokesmen talked so much at the last General Election and previous General Elections. But the Government are wiping out the opportunities for the small farmers and the young men.
  I am delighted to find that more young men are going to agricultural colleges and agricultural technical institutes than
  106
  ever before. But what will happen to that type of ambitious young man if there is this arid kind of economic attitude and this worship of the god of complete efficiency? There is more in the world than trying to have complete efficiency. There is social happiness and social consciousness. An efficient world can be very arid. We want as much as possible in production, though if we are aiming at 100 per cent. efficiency in British agriculture we shall not get it. No Government will ever completely get it.
  There is a tendency to say that the small man must go. The Conservative Party committed a sin at the last General Election. An hon. Member said today that the Conservatives were voted in because of their policies. That is complete bunkum. They were voted in because of the hidden persuaders—£2 million spent in advertising on the hoardings. That accounted for 90 per cent. of their success. There is a famous journalist sitting on the benches opposite—the hon. Member for Southgate (Sir B. Baxter)—and he knows in his heart of hearts that that is so. Give me that kind of money and I will make any duffer on that side of the Committee Prime Minister. I will even do it for the Liberal Party with pleasure. But the Labour Party does not have that money.
  To come back to the point, what are we to do in the transition period while the debate goes on and 12,000 people are leaving the industry every year? Mechanisation is increasing the accident rate in agriculture. There have been 150 persons killed in the last five years because of accidents with tractors. The Road Transport Bill is being pushed through in another place with a Clause permitting boys of 16 to drive tractors. I am against that. With a 16-years-old boy in charge of a tractor there can be a fatal accident in five minutes when driving round the hillsides if the weights are loaded in the wrong position. What are we doing constructively about these little things which enter into agricultural living?
  I could not understand the ruling which was given earlier about rural transport. The Jacks Committee has reported on it. Surely we want to keep village life in being. The dynamic of British democracy has been the smallness of representation. I still want the

  107
  parish council. I still want the base of the pyramid of democracy to be strong, with strong units in the rural areas. It is from that that springs the fighting spirit that Britain can give the world. Our profound political common sense grows out of that. We cannot keep that alive if we have a policy which closes down the railway branch lines in the rural areas, while at the same time not giving a chance to agriculture. How can one keep the country going if one cannot reach the country districts? I welcome the Jacks Report, but had we maintained our policy of public ownership of transport we should not have had this problem in rural Britain today.
  The Labour Party must make up its mind about the Common Market. I have the Adjournment debate tomorrow night on this subject when I hope to raise the political point; but today it is the agricultural point that we must consider. I recommend hon. Members on both sides of the Committee to turn to page 99 of Sir Anthony Eden's book "Full Circle" and see what he thought of American pressure during the Geneva conferences of 1954. Some of us on this side of the House of Commons at that time asked penetrating questions about our being forced into agreements about S.E.A.T.O. I denounced them then, and I do so now. It is proved in the book that pressure and differences existed. Have we been pushed into the Common Market by United States pressure because of the United States policy for Europe? Have we or have we not? No hon. Member opposite is certain. I was contradicted eight years ago when I said that that was which happened at the Geneva Conferences, that we were forced into S.E.A.T.O. When the right hon. Member for Woodford was Prime Minister, he had to tick off the then President of the United States and the Secretary of State who were trying to force us into military action in Indo-China.
  Are we being pushed along too quickly into the Common Market by the United States today, without appreciation of realities in respect of the British standard of life but because of a diabolical attitude towards the cold war? There can be no true Common Market in Europe—books were written about this before the war—unless we
  108
  have true viability, and a true viability of Europe cannot exist without Eastern Europe as well. In the end even one has to take the whole of Western and Eastern Europe in balance to get the economy of Europe working as it should work.
  The Common Market is a monstrosity. It is no real Europe. It is an attempt to build up a cold arid iron curtain more than industry, while the small farmers suffer. There are 9½ million farms in the Common Market countries and 5 million of them are of under 12 acres.
  Mr. P. Browne: The hon. Member has his figures wrong.
  Mr. Davies: Have I?
  Mr. Browne: Yes.
  Mr. Davies: Then perhaps the hon. Member will correct me.
  Mr. Browne: Yes, I will do so. The Common Market countries have 9 million farms of which 5½ million are of 12 acres or less.
  Mr. Davies: Yes.
  Mr. Browne: That is not what the hon. Member said.
  Mr. Davies: Did I not say that? I thought I said that 5½ million of the 9 million farms were of 12 acres and under. I was just giving the rough figures.
  Mr. Browne: The member was half a million out.
  Mr. Davies: This is very clever, is it not? Whatever it is, it proves my point. It may be that there are 5½ million farms of 12 acres or less, but whether it is five million or four million, does that impinge on hon. Members? It is a true peasant economy. What would be the influence of that economy and what representations have we made on the subject?
  I looked up the Financial Times last week, when it stated that we in Britain must be prepared to import agricultural labour from Greece and elsewhere. What does this mean to the agricultural workers' union, when 12,000 a year are leaving us? When people say that we should bring in Greek or Italian agricultural workers—perhaps bring in one of those on a 12-acre farm—we see the

  109
  arid efficiency of this type of argument, but it does not disprove my argument at all. I know that the hon. Gentleman who interrupted is right and that I was half-a-million out, but does it disprove my argument? It does not disprove it. There are masses of cheap labour in agriculture available in Europe, which would completely destroy the British system of agriculture, which both parties in the House have built up.
  "Wait and see", we are told, but they said that eight years ago about a lot of other things. This country will go in at its peril, because the only true Common Market could only be created if we took the courage to break through and invite Poland in. Let us invite Eastern Germany in, and Albania, Hungary, Yugoslavia, the great corn and meat areas. That is the only true Common Market. Any other Common Market will be one in which Western Germany—and I am not against the Germans—will get complete command, and it will serve the purpose of the political cold war policy of the United States. When the time comes, I shall vote against it, because I know that its real purpose is not economic but an arid continuation of the cold war that exists at the moment.
  7.12 p.m.
  Mr. Douglas Marshall: Through the years, I have very often followed the hon. Member for Leek (Mr. Harold Davies), and I have always found his speeches of interest. Generally, I have found myself in violent disagreement with a great many of the things he said, but on this occasion I have not found myself in that position at all. There are a great number of points which he mentioned in his speech on which indeed I both share the anxieties he expressed and agree with the principles which he stated.
  I have found this a rather strange debate on agriculture, and not at all usual. One of the reasons why I say that is that when the hon. Member for Lincoln (Mr. de Freitas) opened the debate, I expected him to take one of two quite distinct attitudes towards this debate. I expected that he would either, in some way or other, come out rather violently about the Common Market, or, if that was not the case, that he would attack the Government in some way on
  110
  what they have done, which has nothing to do with the Common Market, but concerns agriculture as a whole.
  I was somewhat puzzled because the hon. Member, having adopted the second of those attitudes, hardly mentioned the Common Market at all, and I found myself in great difficulty in trying to discover how the party opposite could then divide the Committee, in view of what he said. The hon. Gentleman certainly aired a great number of views on news, but I did not find very much substance attaching to them.
  I should also like to make reference to the speech of the hon. Member for North Devon (Mr. Thorpe). I think that he outlined the difference that I myself find in this matter. I am certainly not going to refer to the great passion of his speech, because it seems to me that he confused two things which I most certainly would not have expected him to confuse. After all, a component part of the original signatures were the Six. They are there now. They were there before. The difference—and I am not saying this in any idle way—was that certain countries that were represented there should eventually come within the terms of the Treaty of Rome. The impression which the hon. Member gave us was that certain right hon. Members of the Government had from time to time made statements with regard to the Treaty of Rome which differed as time went on. So far as I am aware, I know of no senior Minister, and I certainly trust that what I am now saying is factually correct—certainly not the Prime Minister—who has ever yet stated that he would sign the Treaty of Rome as it now stands. This is the fundamental difference, because the Common Market as we know it at this moment means the Treaty of Rome.
  Mr. Thorpe: In fact, it is not possible for any new applicant to sign the Treaty of Rome as it now stands. What happens is that a country applies for membership under Article 237, and, thereafter, there is room for some negotiation. What my colleagues have suggested, and I share their point of view, is that we have not expressed the intention so that an application for membership could be entertained.
  Mr. Marshall: The hon. Gentleman's intervention has not in the slightest

  111
  altered my thinking, or what he was thinking before. If we ask for admission and then sign the Treaty of Rome tomorrow, seeking to go into the Common Market, there may be some slight negotiations here and there, but if we sign it at all now, we sign it with the acceptance of what is contained in that Treaty. The difference is this. The Prime Minister and others of my right hon. Friends have stated from time to time that they wish to consider an association, and they have gone no further than that, and, in considering that association, three vital points must have priority. One is the protection of our own agriculture, the second is the protection of the interests of the British Commonwealth, and the third is the protection of the interests of our associates in E.F.T.A. That is the fundamental difference, and the kind of speech which the hon. Gentleman made makes people muddled and confused, because if one understands anything at this moment as to what the Common Market means, it is that it means the Treaty of Rome.
  I now want to say something concerning agriculture as it now stands. I hope that the conditions that we shall make will be such that, in the end, we do not associate ourselves in that way with the Treaty of Rome. I do not propose to go further into that tonight, except to say that the hon. Member for Devon, North, referred to the great differences of opinion on the question of sovereignty, and I entirely agree with him. I have no desire to relinquish sovereignty and he has. I wish to touch upon one or two points regarding agriculture to which reference has already been made. There is great anxiety about the use to which the present abundance of milk may be applied. I was rather surprised that my right hon. Friend did not mention that matter in relation to liquid price structure. The hon. Member for Lincoln referred to the Government "passing the buck"—that is more or less what the hon. Gentleman said—to the Milk Marketing Board. Surely, the fundamental point is that the Government still control the price of liquid milk, and they cannot pass on anything when they still have control of the means by which profitability may or may not result.
  One of my hon. Friends, whose constituency escapes my mind, asked a
  112
  question regarding the damage to our own milk production when my right hon. Friend was referring to the abundance of different forms of milk products coming into the country. Instead of answering, and saying whether we have not already power to levy costs against those imports in certain circumstances, my right hon. Friend went on to discuss the Common Market, which was not the substance of the question. I hope that my hon. Friend the Joint Parliamentary Secretary will return to that matter and give an answer to the question which was asked.
  I was puzzled by the views of my right hon. Friend on the horticultural industry and his reply to an intervention of mine during his speech. My right hon. Friend gave certain figures which did not indicate the hurt which horticulture has suffered of late. I dislike to weary the Committee by quoting figures, but I should like to refer to sales of horticultural produce expressed in millions. In 1956–57 the figure was £123,500,000. In 1957–58 it was £141 million. In 1960–61 the figure went down to £133 million. I wish to draw the attention of the Committee to the fact that this is expressed in £ sterling and not in the purchasing power of the £. As I asked my right hon. Friend, if we compare total sales or total production in the 1940s—to which he referred—with the total sales and production in volume today, we find that there is a serious decline, which is extremely worrying.
  I do not desire to discuss matters which may appear to be "parish pump" politics, but I want to put one point to the Joint Parliamentary Secretary. It concerns a matter affecting us in Cornwall, but hon. Members representing constituencies in other parts of the United Kingdom are confronted with the same problem at different times. There is great confusion over the question of who should, and how we can, fence certain parts of the moors which are traversed by major roads. Part of this problem is the concern of the Ministry of Agriculture, part is the concern of the Ministry of Transport, and there are other factors involved, including the part played by people who graze cattle on the moors.

  113
  The tragic thing about this problem is that—because of the speed of modern means of locomotion and the number of people able in these days to travel by road—the lack of fencing along these roads leads to many accidents to animals and to humans and much damage to vehicles. Yet the actual cost of fencing, as I hope the Parliamentary Secretary will note, might be described as comparatively small. The difficulty is to get any Government Department to recognise as a duty the need for this work of fencing to be carried out.
  Mr. Charles Loughlin: I am interested in the references by the hon. Member to the decline in the sale of horticultural produce. He will know that recently attempts have been made to stimulate such production. Can he give any opinion about the reason for the decline in horticultural production and what steps should be taken to assist the industry?
  Mr. Marshall: A number of factors must be taken into consideration and I should not care to weary the Committee by enumerating them all. There are certainly worries regarding our future position and the Common Market, and so on. At the same time, I do not think that the tariff weapon is used with sufficient speed by the Board of Trade. That is the sort of thing which might be partly responsible for the decline in horticultural production, but I must also admit that over the last few years weather conditions have not been of the best from the point of view of horticultural producers. Incidentally, the road to which I was referring was the A.30 on Bodmin Moor.
  I am glad to note that the Minister has got an agreed February Price Review with the N.F.U. Broadly speaking, what concerns people in the agriculture industry is the future rather than present-day problems. As the Minister said, the land of Britain is our heritage. It is not only the heritage of this generation but of future generations.
  Mr. Peart: They have been sold before.
  Mr. Marshall: Does the hon. Member wish to interrupt me?
  Mr. Peart: There is no doubt that they are worried about the future. They were sold before.
  Mr. Marshall: There was once a Liberal Government, I believe.
  Mr. Peart: And a Conservative Government.
  Mr. Marshall: The future of agriculture is assured, provided that in any thinking about the Common Market we make certain that a prerequisite is that agriculture is protected. However, I shall not be in support of a Common Market based on the Treaty of Rome.
  7.29 p.m.
  Mr. E. G. Gooch: I value the opportunity to take part in this debate. While I join in the criticism expressed from this side of the Committee regarding the conduct by the Government of agricultural affairs, I wish to maintain sincerely that British agriculture has at the moment nothing of which to be ashamed. British agriculture and all associated with it have much of which to be proud.
  I pay my tribute to the achievement of those engaged in farming the land of this country. We have had an astonishing result of greatly increased production with fewer men, but in the days to come more men will be leaving the industry, although I believe that production will continue to increase. Nevertheless, given certain conditions, there is still a great future for the industry.
  I have been privileged to represent a rural constituency for a number of years and I have spent my life living in a rural part of Britain. One cannot live in such an area and represent such a constituency without knowing something of the problems of farming. I confess that I often hear of the shortcomings of the Government and I pass on the complaints which I receive to the Ministers and Departments concerned, but I believe that the average problem of the average farmer is small compared with that of the farm worker, who has often worked on the same farm for twenty or thirty years only to be told at the end of that time that he is redundant.
  That is the sort of thing which is happening today. The order of today

  115
  appears to be more traction, new techniques, more machines, but fewer men. I am sorry that we have reached that stage. The number of men employed on farms continues to decline and we have nearly reached the half-way stage. I do not know whether we will go past it, but it would be unfortunate if, having boosted our agriculture and having seen production increase and continue to increase, we should deprive the farms of what are regarded as some of the best men to be found in industry today.
  The debate has taken an unusual, although not unexpected, turn. It was announced in some of the newspapers that although the House of Commons was supposed to be debating agriculture and fertilisers, this was to be a debate on the Common Market. I do not object to that and we have had speech after speech dealing with this important matter. I am glad we have. The Government have not yet made up their mind about it. Nor have the Opposition. I made up my mind a long time ago. I am utterly opposed to it from the point of view of agriculture. My friends in my constituency know the tenor of my speeches on the subject and I shall continue to tell my friends, the farm workers, that it will be a disastrous day for them if Great Britain enters the Common Market.
  I wish that we had much more information than we have. If Britain joins the Common Market, agriculture as we know it today will fast be going down the drain. We shall be going back to the conditions which obtained between the two wars. Some of us who had a part to play on one side of the industry during those disastrous years know that farmers were then going bankrupt by the hundreds and that farms could be obtained two a penny and that the wages of farm workers went down from a top 46s. a week to 25s. a week.
  After listening to all the arguments and reading all I could about it and trying to weigh up the situation with an unbiassed mind, I am sure that it will be a disastrous day for British agriculture if we line up with Continental countries.
  It is often forgotten that the money provided for agriculture is not in the slightest charity but a worth-while investment by the country. Where should we have been during two world wars
  116
  without the stepping up of production on our farms and the efforts of our farmers and farm workers? If the support for agriculture can be regarded as an investment, it will be seen as the best possible investment we can make.
  Some of my colleagues will say that the country should join with Europe and that we should then get these things sorted out afterwards and see that agriculture is protected. As the Continental countries are waiting to carve up the British food market, I am not prepared to see our agricultural policy dictated by other countries. Let us retain a sense of proportion and keep the power which we possess over the distribution of our own finances. Let us work out our own agricultural policies and the attitude which we adopt towards those concerned with them.
  I should want to see the conditions to safeguard our agriculture before changing my mind about joining the Common Market. At the moment, I am definitely against it and I am advising my friends, especially the farm workers, about the attitude which they should adopt towards this proposal.
  All the time we have been talking about production and the Common Market and the fate of the farmers. We sometimes overlook the fact that in agriculture there is another partner who needs encouragement and who is worth attention, namely, the farm worker. I am glad that the debate is not hedged round with restrictions about what we can discuss, but what I have to say will safely come within the realms of agriculture. I want to refer to farm safety.
  It was a very great achievement to have passed through Parliament the Agriculture (Safety, Health and Welfare Provisions) Act, 1956, under which the Minister makes Regulations for additional safety on farms. However, there is a deplorable number of accidents on farms and the recently published figures are most disturbing. I know that the human element sometimes fails, but sometimes the machine fails. The workers in the industry are saying that more inspectors are required to go to the farms to see that the Regulations are actually implemented. If the Minister is satisfied that they are, then there is everything to be said for encouraging the human element to play its part.

  117
  I will not refer to a Bill which is going through another place. It is a Government proposal, and I expect that the Minister knows about it. It is a proposal to reduce from 17 to 16 the age at which a boy on a farm is allowed to drive a tractor. The number of accidents on the roads today is alarming. The number of accidents on farms is alarming. I am sorry that the Government are proposing that farm tractors should be driven by boys of—
  The Temporary Chairman (Mr. Ronald Russell): The hon. Member is getting out of order.
  Mr. Gooch: I am not referring to the Bill which is in another place. This is a Government proposal—
  The Temporary Chairman: Order. What the hon. Member is suggesting would require legislation, and it is not in order to discuss that.
  Mr. Gooch: I will leave it at that, Mr. Russell, but the Minister has my point.
  For some time we have been pegging away at the agricultural apprenticeship scheme. At last we have got it going. Applicants for apprenticeships are coming forward in increasing numbers, but while some counties are doing very well, others are not. The new Regulations to attract boys and girls on to our farms will succeed, but I am concerned about the fact that when the apprenticeship days are over there is no guarantee that these boys and girls will be rewarded for their additional skill. I am not proposing anything today. I know that there is a proposal before the Agricultural Wages Board to deal with plus rates in agriculture, but if the Minister wants to make a success of the apprenticeship scheme—and I know that he does—he must interest himself not only in the conditions which exist while the apprenticeship is being served, but also in the conditions which follow that apprenticeship.
  The debate so far has been worth while. When the Minister referred to the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Lincoln (Mr. de Freitas) he suggested that it might be a case of much ado about nothing. I do not think that it is. I think that it has been worth while, and I am sure that the Minister and all
  118
  hon. Members will benefit from many of the things which have been said.
  7.42 p.m.
  Mr. James Dance: I promised to be brief, and I hope therefore that the hon. Member for Norfolk, North (Mr. Gooch) will forgive me if I do not follow him in his argument. Much has been said about the Common Market, and I will not mention it, not because I underestimate the great importance of it, but simply because a lot has already been said about it.
  If, however, we do enter the Common Market, it will emphasise the importance of the few remarks I intend to make about the marketing of our goods. I do not think that anybody would deny that our growers produce the finest goods in the world, yet I sometimes feel that we present and market them badly.
  Consider a Cox's Orange Pippin apple which is grown in this country. Is there any apple to touch it? If we go into the Common Market, we might do a big trade in these high quality apples. But the excellence of their quality must be made more widely known.
  How many people in this country have enjoyed the luxury of eating asparagus? I am not talking about the white stuff which is mostly wood, about the size of my finger, but about the delicious stuff which I tasted this weekend and which was grown in my garden. One cannot get asparagus like that in any hotel in London. One might possibly get it at inns in the country. Why do we not produce for the public asparagus at its best?
  In my garden I grow tiny broad beans. They are delicious. Yet, what do we get in shops and restaurants? We get great husky tough beans.
  I agree that we might have to put up the prices of these quality goods, but I believe that there are enough people who are prepared to pay more for quality goods. By all means let us have the cheaper products as well. In suggesting that we should market better quality products, I am also thinking of the export side of the business.
  Consider, again, the broad bean. I have travelled a lot, and in my experience this is the only country in Europe in which one can get broad beans. I have looked in a French dictionary and

  119
  cannot even find a name for them. Let us educate people about some of our products and make them realise how delicious they are.
  I may be called a heretic, but I believe that among the main causes of our trouble are local shows when the one thing which is considered, for example, is the size of the bean—"Mine was 2 feet 4 inches", that sort of attitude. It has nothing to do with quality. I may become unpopular with one or two of my friends in the country, but the fact remains that far too much emphasis is placed on the size of the exhibit as opposed to its quality.
  I am also not happy about what happens to our horticultural products from the time they leave the grower to the time they get to the consumer. Nor am I happy about the difference in the price.
  Fresh peas from the garden are delicious, but they are very different from the ones one finds in the shops. There is far too great a time lag between the harvesting of the product and its purchase by the consumer.
  Another point is the difference between the price paid to the farmer and that paid by the consumer. I know that it is argued that there is a lot of wastage in these perishable articles. That may be true, and one must be fair to the wholesaler and to the retailer and give them a reasonable margin of profit, but the margin is too big.
  Next, bacon. We can produce excellent bacon. I know that the pig breeders are grateful to my right hon. Friend for the help he has given them in the recent Price Review by enabling them to make long-term contracts, but the bacon which we see in some of the shops is not consistent in quality. That is one reason why housewives are apt to go for Danish bacon, but one has to bear in mind that the bacon which we buy here and which is called Danish bacon is not the stuff which is sold in Denmark. The rubbish is sold there and the best is sent here.
  If someone were to get the views of housewives about the kind of bacon they want and those views were passed on to the curers who in turn told the farmers the type of pigs they wanted, we could put British bacon on the market again. The Pig Industrial Development Authority is doing a good job, but I still
  120
  hope that my right hon. Friend will consider my suggestion. Having done that, would he consider increasing the length of long-term guarantees to pig producers?
  If bacon factories find the kind of pig which is wanted, they should be allowed to enter into really long-term contracts of, say, five years, so that the breeders can get down to breeding a herd of pigs of the right type. In turn, the factories will be able to produce the right type of bacon.
  We can and do produce the finest agricultural and horticultural goods in the world. Let us see that they reach the public, and the public abroad, at their best.
  7.50 p.m.
  Mr. A. V. Hilton: Like my hon. Friend the Member for Norfolk, North (Mr. Gooch), I thought the Minister of Agriculture was rather complacent this afternoon. He expressed the view that all was well in British agriculture, although there is some doubt whether or not we should join the Common Market. If he is so complacent I would advise him to read some of the reports which have come from meetings of the N.F.U. in Norfolk and various other parts of the country. Iii those reports are correct, it is clear that many things are not as they should be in agriculture, although tremendous improvements have been made in recent years.
  Most speakers, especially hon. Members opposite, have spoken from the point of view of agriculture generally. As time is getting short, I want to refer particularly to small farmers and to farm workers. The larger farmer may be satisfied, but I can assure the Minister that the small farmer still finds a good deal of justification for being dissatisfied. The Minister must have been relieved that the debate has become virtually a debate on the question whether or not we should join the Common Market.
  I want to say only one thing about the Common Market. I warn the Minister—and he had better warn the Government—that if there is any idea of our joining the Common Market he had better make sure that the interests of agriculture and horticulture are fully safeguarded. If they are not there will be trouble with

  121
  a capital "T" from all sections of British agriculture. Our present position has not been attained without a tremendous struggle, and I do not have to remind the Minister of the wonderful record of our farm workers. There has been no sign of a strike on their part since 1923—nearly forty years ago—and they will not lightly see agriculture again go down the drain.
  Mr. Holt: This is an important point. There are many different arguments for joining the Common Market. If it were possible to make satisfactory arrangements in all other respects—in connection with Commonwealth trade, and with political matters—would the hon. Member say that failure to arrive at what he would call a satisfactory arrangement for horticulture would provide a sufficient ground for our not joining the Common Market?
  Mr. Hilton: There is no time fully to debate this interesting point. I said at the beginning of my speech that it was not my intention to debate the Common Market, except to the extent of warning the Government about agricultural and horticultural safeguards.
  I cannot understand why, in 1961, people should be expected to invest their money in agriculture without getting the same return for it as do people who invest in industry. Why should farm workers, with their splendid record, have to work longer hours, for much lower wages—it is still only £8 9s. for a 46-hour week—than do people in other industries? Many people working on the farms at present have no security of tenure. I hope that the Minister will be able to help the National Union of Agricultural Workers on this matter of the tied cottage, which has been a burning question for fifty years. I know that it does not apply in many cases, but in 1961 it should not apply at all.
  It is wrong that if an employer does not need one of his farm workers any longer, or if that farm worker wants to go to another job, he should have to leave his tied cottage without alternative accommodation being provided. Grave hardship is caused on some occasions. We have had discussions with the Ministry on this subject for years, but we have never had satisfaction. The Minister is basically a kind man, and I hope that
  122
  he will be able to discuss this matter with the Minister of Housing and Local Government, in order to see whether legislation can be worked out to prevent the eviction of farm workers in circumstances such as I have described.
  The Minister paid a well deserved tribute to farm workers, especially for the good job they did last harvest, particularly in harvesting the beet, when they were working up to their backsides in mud getting the beet in. Many people have paid glowing tributes to our farm workers in recent years, but fine words do not fill empty bellies.
  Mr. David Webster: Is it not true that there were two agricultural wage awards last year of record amounts? Surely that was a very considerable step forward for the agricultural labourer.
  Mr. Hilton: There were two wage awards last year, but they merely brought the wage of the agricultural worker up to £8 9s. a week. Surely the hon. Member would not say that that is sufficient for a skilled farm worker in 1961.
  The noble Lord the Member for Dorset, South (Viscount Hinchingbrooke) was a notable exception, in that he did not pay tribute to the farm workers for their efforts. I informed him that I should be referring to a speech which he made in February of this year, when he said that the farm worker, or the N.U.A.W., which represents him, is responsible for the spiral of wage claims which are negotiated. Those sentiments are nothing new from Dorset. Over a century ago his predecessors in Dorset sentenced the Tolpuddle martyrs to seven years' deportation for forming the first union of farm workers.
  I am sorry that my hon. Friend the Member for Norfolk, North has left the Chamber. I hope that when he makes his annual pilgrimage to Tolpuddle to pay tribute to the martyrs in a few weeks' time he will remind the people of Dorset that there is not much difference between the present attitude of the noble Lord and the attitude of his forebears of 100 years ago.
  Mr. Webster: Perhaps someone should inform the hon. Member that my noble Friend comes from Huntingdonshire.
  Mr. Hilton: But the noble Lord sits for Dorset, South.
  I was pleased to hear the Minister say that the farm improvement and small farm schemes were off to a good start. Are the right people getting the benefits to be obtained from these schemes? My experience from having served on a county agricultural executive committee for many years is that, though these schemes are excellent, it is mostly the farmers with plenty of money who are able to take advantage of them. They can lay down their share of the necessary money. The people who really need the help often have to go without it because they cannot lay down their share. These improvements are in most cases necessary. The same can be said of subsidies, though it is sometimes said that all subsidies are not necessary. I am not sure about that. Perhaps there are some farmers who do not farm for a living and have other interests who can do without some subsidies, but for many farmers the agricultural subsidies are absolutely vital.
  I am informed that, even with subsidies, half the farmers who farm holdings of from 50 to 150 acres earn no more than the farm worker. Many earn far less. This information was given by a constituent of mine—a noble Lord—in a debate on agriculture in another place on 29th March. If this is true, it is a very poor reward for the small farmer, who has been rightly described on many occasions as the backbone of British agriculture. I vouch for the accuracy of that description as applied to many small farmers in Norfolk.
  The time is ripe for a new deal for small farmers and farm workers. It is not right that they should work such long hours for such small reward. They have a splendid record. I do not suggest that the Agricultural Wages Board should be scrapped, but before the Government make large hand-outs to Surtax payers they should ensure that small farmers and farm workers are accorded decent treatment. It is not surprising that so many farm workers are still leaving the land. Experienced men are leaving and going to jobs which are not nearly as important but which carry much higher wages. Their roots are in agriculture, but as they can get better conditions elsewhere it is not surprising that they leave.
  124
  Small farmers and horticulturists have recently been exasperated by the action of the Government in giving them improvement grants to modernise heating systems in glasshouses and then a few weeks ago proposing to increase the price of oil. They transferred from solid fuel to oil heating because it was more modern, and then they were asked to pay more for the oil.
  Mr. F. V. Corfield: If the hon. Member consults HANSARD he will find that my right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer agreed to remit the tax on oil used for heating glasshouses.
  Mr. Hilton: I agree that the Chancellor has done that. I said that small farmers and horticulturists are exasperated. I conclude that the Chancellor made this concession in regard to oil used for heating glasshouses, but he still persists with the tax on paraffin, which hurts small farmers and horticulturists in other directions.
  I suggest that there should be much closer liaison between the Ministry of Agriculture and the Board of Trade to prevent the dumping of surpluses in this country. We have heard of eggs being dumped to the detriment of the producers of home eggs. I recently raised the matter of carrots being imported when in my constituency farmers were having to plough in good carrots. It is not unknown at this time of the year, as soon as strawberry picking starts, for large quantities of fruit pulp to be dumped in this country, again to the detriment of our fruit growers. I hope that in future we can expect closer liaison between the two Ministries to prevent this.
  I still want to see more time and money devoted to research into fowl pest and foot-and-mouth disease. We all know the great trouble they caused less than six months ago, but people in certain quarters have already almost forgotten about it. Now is the time to devote more time and money to research. It is very frustrating for a farmer who has built up a first-class herd or a certain strain of poultry to lose the lot at one fell swoop because of disease.
  I want to see more education in agriculture. I believe that it will pay dividends in the future if we take action

  125
  now. Reference has been made to apprenticeship schemes. I am sorry to say that in Norfolk these are virtually non-existent, because we cannot get the youngsters to participate or the farmers to train the youngsters. I hope that the Minister will do more to encourage farmers to play their part, because it will be in the best interests of agriculture in the future. As time is short, I will content myself with those suggestions.
  Mr. John Farr: The hon. Member referred several times to the N.U.A.W. Will he kindly tell me what percentage of all farm workers are members of this body? The Committee will then have some idea of what weight can be attached to the opinion expressed by this body.
  Mr. Hilton: I cannot tell the hon. Member the national percentage, though I can tell him about Norfolk, which is the home of the N.U.A.W. Much of its membership is in Norfolk. We have an estimated 90 per cent. membership in the N.U.A.W. in Norfolk.
  Mr. Farr: Can we take that figure as applying for the whole country?
  8.10 p.m.
  Mr. Stephen Hastings: I hope that the hon. Member for Norfolk, South-West (Mr. Hilton) will forgive me if I do not follow him too far, as I know that other hon. Members on both sides wish to take part in the debate. I listened carefully to him, and I agreed with what he said about the anti-dumping regulations. But I would like to say this to him: it is all very well to warn about the dangers that now face the industry—we can all see them—but our purpose and duty in the House is to consider how they are constituted and how we can get over them, which is not nearly so easy a matter.
  The hon. Gentleman spoke about the wage levels for farm workers. If it is any relief to him, I can tell him that, in my own area, I know that it is rare for a farm worker to go home with the minimum wage. I am glad to say that most of them earn a good deal more than that, and some of them double—
  Mr. Hilton: Can the hon. Gentleman tell me how many hours' overtime those men work for that additional wage?
  Mr. Hastings: These are mostly men on piece work in horticulture, and their earnings depend very much on the season.
  It has been said several times today that one of the farmer's greatest headaches is uncertainty; uncertainty about the weather, uncertainty about markets and prices, and now uncertainty about the Common Market. If this debate succeeds in throwing into relief the dangers that undoubtedly exist and rendering them more realistic, it will have done a great service; it is much easier to face something one can see than something that is obscure.
  One of my right hon. Friend's remarks in his opening speech seemed to me of particular significance. He said, "It is the objective of agricultural policy that is inviolate, and not the means." That was enlarged on by my hon. Friend the Member for Guildford (Sir R. Nugent), and in present circumstances it is a most significant remark. The sooner this is fairly and squarely faced by the industry, the better it will be. If we join the Common Market, the means of obtaining this objective will, of course, be changed—but what if we do not join? In this connection, I should like to mention two factors, only one of which has, I think, so far been touched on.
  The Common Market as at present constituted produces over 90 per cent. of its total requirements in food products. Several of the countries are in surplus. It is also true that there is much room for improvement and rationalisation of the agricultural industry within the Common Market.
  If the countries of the Six succeed even in approaching their objectives as defined, it seems to me that they are sure to be building an ever-increasing surplus. Where will that surplus go? It will go into the largest open market in the world for food produce; it will come here. Therefore, as the Common Market succeeds agriculturally—if it does succeed—the danger to our farmers, if we are outside, will increase.
  Secondly, let us take the example of Denmark, an E.F.T.A. partner. Denmark at present exports 40 per cent. of her large agricultural production to the Common Market countries. As the common external tariff rises, so will it

  127
  become more difficult for Denmark to continue to export to those countries. Where will that trade be deflected to? Britain is the leading E.F.T.A. partner, and again I think that that produce is bound to come in our direction as well and there will be a strong moral obligation to accept it. That is the second reason why competition for our farmers, due to an ever-increasing volume of imports, is unavoidable if we are out of the Common Market. In those circumstances, it seems to me that the dangers of staying out are as great as those that exist if we go in.
  Having made that general statement, I want to confine the rest of my speech to that sector of the industry that seems to me most threatened—horticulture and market gardening. There are many market gardeners in my division, and there is no doubt—I have talked to many of them—that they are extremely worried. I do not think that anyone would disagree that in present circumstances our producers could not survive against unrestricted imports; without some form of support or protection at the ports.
  Because of the perishability of produce and the complexity of the industry generally, support such as is offered to the general farmer is impossible for horticulture, and our form of protection consists of specific and ad valorem tariffs. It is interesting to note that in the Common Market there is no stabilisation fund at all for fruit and vegetables—presumably for the same reasons that we find support impossible.
  If we look at the form of protection applied at the frontiers we find a whole range of systems, set up bilaterally at the moment, which differ widely in scope and extent between products and countries but which are all based on a principle known as the minimum price. There are variations of this theme outside the Common Market—for example, in Sweden, Switzerland and Norway. I want to compare the efficacy of these systems with our own method of protecting horticulture by tariffs and by anti-dumping regulations.
  How does the tariff come about? It seems a big problem to trace by quantities, or conditions or origin, the imports of fruit and vegetables into this country,
  128
  and the initiation of a tariff seems to stem from a mounting indignation amongst growers as they watch prices drop to unbearable levels. The N.F.U. takes up the case and makes an exhaustive survey. That may take weeks or even months. It is passed to the Ministry, which then makes an equally lengthy and careful appreciation of the position. If the case is accepted, an approach is made to the exporting country, and some accommodation is arrived at. The resulting compromise is taken to G.A.T.T., and that organisation either approves or disapproves. A lot of time has elapsed by the end of that process, and the situation which the case was initiated to alleviate has in all probability by then disappeared.
  As I understand a tariff, it can never be a short-term instrument of protection. It cannot work quickly. It is based, in fact, on a guess that the situation will recur as it was when the trouble first started—and this in a notoriously unpredictable trade. It does not react either to prices or to weather and growing conditions, which are large contributory factors to gluts in general, and particularly to the glut that occurred in the industry last year. As a weapon of protection, the tariff is slow, blunt and inaccurate.
  Although the anti-dumping regulations read well on paper, I believe that the extreme difficulty of obtaining the information necessary to set them in motion nullifies their effect. We have heard quite enough today to indicate that there is serious trouble over dumping, as my right hon. Friend brought out most clearly in his opening speech.
  Now let us consider the minimum price. As I have said, there are many different systems, but all are based on frequent and regular review of market prices. One good example for us is the arrangement in force between Germany and Italy—since Germany is also a large importer of food. The minimum price as fixed by the Germans is laid down as the average price paid to German growers for top-quality produce. This is the minimum price. If the average market price falls below this and looks as though it will stay there, the German authorities give five days' warning and then close the frontier, either until prices again rise above the minimum level or

  129
  at the end of a statutory period depending on the product involved. Between Germany and the Netherlands there is a different system. The Dutch manage to maintain minimum export prices. The Norwegians have a system of upper price limits for their own goods above which imports are permitted, but not below. In France the system has a special anti-inflationary slant. In other systems the stoppage is phased in such a way that the import of high quality produce only is allowed to continue.
  The truth is that these systems range from the highly protectionist to the truly liberal. Much, of course, depends on how the minimum price is arrived at and the period of warning allowed before any action is taken. But all these systems have these elements in common. They are automatic and they brook of no argument. They are quick-acting. They react to market prices and to a glut, no matter why or how that glut occurs in the industry. Furthermore, if the minimum price is liberal and if exporters are sensible about it, they should find it easier to maintain a steadier flow of trade than they could under a quota system or under a system of second tariffs.
  It can be argued, of course, that the minimum price system contravenes the G.A.T.T. agreement, and I understand that an investigation is being carried out by G.A.T.T. to see whether that is the case. But I ask hon. Members: is it likely that G.A.T.T. can put the clock back on the Common Market and other European countries that have already set up these systems and are now working them with success? I doubt it very much.
  It is important in this connection to consider how the European Common Market envisages the gradual removal of this minimum price system. It is vital for us to know exactly where we are, particularly if the point is reached when we are negotiating an agreement. There is, firstly, the three-year period during which any member country can make one of these agreements bilaterally, sending a copy for information to the Commission. At the end of three years a procedure for revision is to be introduced after which all minimum prices are to fall in line with certain criteria. This stage has not so far been reached. At the end of the transitional period—12 or 15 years,
  130
  whichever the case may be—there is to be a further revision and all existing minimum prices are to be abandoned, if possible. But, in this connection, I wish to quote from Article 44 of the Treaty, paragraph 6, which says:
  "At the expiry of the transitional period, a table of minimum prices still in force shall be drawn up. The Council, acting on a proposal of a majority of nine votes "—
  a small majority by their system of weighted votes—
  "in accordance with the weighting provided for in Article 148, paragraph 2, first sub-paragraph shall determine the system to be applied within the framework of the common agricultural policy."
  That is, perhaps, not entirely clear, but it has been interpreted widely as meaning that the Common Market countries already envisage the possibility of keeping minimum price systems going after the end of the transitional period. This is a vital Clause in the Treaty for Britain's horticultural industry and one which I feel certain my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture has not overlooked.
  Thus, having made this comparison between the two systems, my proposition is that the Minister should consider initiating a thorough investigation of the minimum price systems in use in Europe—if he has not already done so—with a view, possibly, to our going over to it, whether or not we join the Common Market.
  We should then have a clearer idea of exactly how far we could go towards meeting the aims of the Common Market in horticulture, since we would be using the same system which is, in many respects, more efficient than our own and, at the same time, we would retain a flexible and adequate means of protection.
  I have in addition, three recommendations to make. First, if the industry is to meet this competition—and it is coming, whether we join the Common Market or not—we should step up investment in research and development. I believe that at the moment the percentage of the annual turnover of the horticultural and agricultural industries combined devoted to research and development is about ·4 per cent. If one includes the National Agricultural Advisory Service, it brings this to ·7 per cent. That compares with an average for manufacturing industry of 2·6 per cent.

  131
  for engineering—less electrical engineering, the figure is 1·8 per cent.—and between 2 per cent. and 3 per cent. for the chemical industry. I cannot absolutely guarantee these figures, but I believe them to be correct. They do show that investment in research and development in agriculture and horticulture is not excessive in any way by comparison. Further, why should not a proportion of the £500,000 so generously offered at the Price Review to the N.F.U. for market research and turned down, be given now to the Horticultural Marketing Council for Consumer Research?
  I wonder whether the Horticultural Marketing Council might, second, look into the possibility of setting up at the end of their three-year twin a Fruit and Vegetable Board along the lines—but not with the same sweeping powers—of that in existence in Holland. Naturally, some organisation of that kind with real power is necessary if this industry is to compete with the rest of Europe, as we hope it will.
  Third, should any grower, as a result of any arrangements we may arrive at with the Common Market, lose his livelihood through no fault of his own, I believe that the Government should actively consider terms of compensation and resettlement for him. It is never too early to envisage such a possibility and, on the margins of the industry, this represents a very real possibility.
  I have said that in my part of the world growers are worried. I wish now to quote something I heard not long ago from one of them. He said:
  "If it is necessary for our country to join the Common Market, then we must accept it. But we must know whether or not our industry is forfeit."
  I would that those in this country whose intellect is easily satisfied and attracted by this great vision of united Europe, but whose jobs are not jeopardised, would reflect on those words, and on the courage, the unselfishness and the patriotism behind them.
  In reply, I told my friend what I believe to be the truth. The industry will not be forfeit. The Government have often repeated their very proper pledge to agriculture, and the horticultural industry—with a turnover of
  132
  £135 million, employing 150,000 people—is an integral part of it.
  There is, of course, much that the industry can, and must, do to make itself more efficient. There will be no room in the future for inefficiency and this had better be said. There may, I think, be a need for changes in the economy and in the production of holdings, but if we do come to negotiate with the Common Market, then we must have a transitional period at least as long as that laid down for the original members. We must insist on continued means of protection through minimum price for the most vulnerable sectors—and here I would cite glasshouse tomato growers—and lastly the industry itself must have the will and determination to get up to date.
  With these conditions the vast majority of British growers can and will survive and prosper. Without them, they will be in grave danger.
  8.29 p.m.
  Mr. John Morris: I do not propose to follow the remarks of the hon. Member for Mid-Bedfordshire (Mr. Hastings), though I think he expressed some real fears of the horticulturists as regards the Common Market.
  I have had the pleasure of listening to six hours of debate and I have heard almost every speech. I thought at the beginning of the debate that more of the speeches would be concentrated on the real internal issues of agriculture in England and Wales as opposed to the Common Market, though it is true that the cloud which is hovering above the farming community is that of the Common Market. One of the questions that one is asked wherever one goes among the farming communities is "Let us know the worst". The difficulty now is that no one—including the farmers—knows what are the implications of entering and not entering. However, I hope to return to that aspect later.
  Three things have caused consternation in the farming community in the last few months. We have had, first of all, the December White Paper. If ever there was a platitudinous document it was that White Paper. After all those talks, the comings and goings in the summer, the talks with the President

  133
  of the N.F.U. and so on, in the end we had this document which was so full of platitudes.
  The first platitude was that the Government said that they had stood and would stand by all their obligations under the Agriculture Act, 1947. That undoubtedly, in the present state of affairs of the farming community, is a piece of arrant nonsense. It is a piece of pomposity and is unworthy of the Government and of the Minister in particular. How can that statement be reconciled with the clamant and strident complaint of the President of the National Farmers' Union from time to time about the fall in real farming incomes since 1951? All the time the National Farmers' Union has complained that a real share of the increase in national prosperity is not being obtained by the farmers. How can the Government say that they have stood by all their obligations under the 1947 Act when this complaint is made from time to time?
  The hon. Member for Devon, North (Mr. Thorpe), who has made a series of suggestions—some fantastic and some more reasonable—asked on 9th March for the figures of average net incomes of farms and asked how they had dropped in 1959 as compared with 1958. He was given the figures for farms of between 50 and 150 acres and was told that there had been a 12½ per cent. decrease and that on the larger farms there had been a 7½ per cent. decrease.
  On 18th May I tried to clarify the issue and asked further questions about farms in Wales. The figures that I was given were even worse. The drop in Wales ranged from 14½ per cent. on farms over 51 acres to 42 per cent. on farms over 300 acres. That was a drop in farm incomes over one year, and that is an addition to the indictment against the Government for having let down the farming community.
  In the last Price Review we had the latest available figures for dairy farmers. It is admitted in the White Paper that in the year 1960–61 as compared with the previous year there was a drop of 1¾d. per gallon in the price obtained by the producer of milk. On an average-sized farm producing about 40 gallons a day over the year, that works out at a drop of £2 a week in every week in the
  134
  farming year as compared with the previous year. That is a very serious state of affairs.
  Last year the attack against the Price Review was that it was restrictionist, and I do not deny it. In the December White Paper we are told that the Government policy is not restrictionist. Surely not even the Minister can deny that there is a restrictionist milk policy.
  Mr. Soames: Would the hon. Gentleman tell me what was done in the last Price Review which in any way altered the Government's policy towards the amount of milk produced in this country which would carry a guaranteed price?
  Mr. Morris: I was coming to this. The Minister has intervened rather too early. I was going to endorse and support some of his proposals with respect to milk. I will come to that later.
  I prefer the solution offered by my right hon. Friend the Member for Middlesbrough, East (Mr. Marquand), in a document which he issued in conjunction with the War on Want Campaign, that some of our excess milk production should be used to stave off some of the dread diseases among the people of Kenya, the Cameroons and Nigeria. In that document my right hon. Friend dealt with the question of mothers in under-developed countries who are suffering because of the shortage of milk, saying that Canada and the United States were able to give milk freely to the United Nations Children's Fund in order to alleviate some of the difficulty.
  Before the right hon. Gentleman eventually decides to plump for something which will undoubtedly result in a restrictionist policy, I hope that he will consider making a free contribution of milk to this fund. This is a country which God has created as a natural producer of grass and milk. It is amazing that we should be contemplating a restrictionist policy in order to restrict the amount of milk that we can produce. Until our order of priorities is altered—
  Mr. Soames: The hon. Gentleman keeps talking about a "restrictionist policy". Will he tell me what is restrictionist about our policy on milk?
  Mr. Morris: The end result for which the right hon. Gentleman is hoping is

  135
  that less milk will be produced than is produced at present. That is his object. Until the right hon. Gentleman considers what can be done to send our excess milk production overseas, I would say that his policy is sound in that some step has to be taken to reduce the amount of milk which is being produced. The more milk being produced, the more depressed the pool price becomes.
  A few years ago I was a senior official of a farmers' union in Wales—and a rebel farmers' union at that. In 1957 we drew up a policy, the first of its kind, for a differential price for milk. We advocated a two-tariff system for milk. The basic idea was that every farmer should have an individual guarantee for milk, and that for the first 80 gallons he should be paid a full price and that for any excess he should be paid a realisation price. That would be a pool price lower of necessity than today's pool price, because every farmer would have creamed off the first 80 gallons.
  In our submission, that was an admirable solution. We hoped that thereby the share of the market of the small producer—and he was not so small if he produced, on average, 80 gallons a day—would be assured and the bigger farmer would lose some of the advantages which he now possesses of large-scale production and would produce other commodities which the country so badly needs, in particular beef. I have an analysis of the number of small milk producers in this country. In the last year for which figures are available, 1955, 85 per cent. of the dairy farmers in England produced less than 63 gallons a day.
  Our idea was shouted down. I think that almost every farming organisation in the country disagreed with our proposal. A resolution from Yorkshire went to the annual meeting of the Milk Marketing Board at which a two-tariff system of the nature to which I have referred was turned down. I am glad that the Government have now became converted to the idea of a two-tariff system. I for one heartily endorse the Minister's policy on this problem as an interim policy.
  There is a statement in the White Paper that the
  136
  "Principles implicit in the national standard quantity for milk must be applied to payments to individual producers."
  Then there is discussion of the two-tariff system. The ambiguity of this statement has created a row throughout the country. When is the second tariff to be operated? Is every farmer to have two tariffs, or is there to be a basic quantity which every producer can produce?
  If the small farmer as well as the big farmer has to face a two-tariff system, his already low return will suffer unduly. He cannot afford that. The Minister should seriously consider that every farmer, whatever the size of his production, should have, first, a basic quantity for which he would get the full price, and only after the basic quantity has been produced should the second tariff come into operation. That would be a practical and easy policy, not unlike the policy that was carried out during the war and for many years afterwards with the war-time production bonus, whereby a higher payment was obtained for the first 300 or 400 gallons produced monthly as opposed to the quantity produced after that figure.
  The Minister seems to have held the pistol at the farming organisations by demanding that the solution must be arrived at before 31st July. The Department has never been renowned for its wisdom in making speedy decisions. Indeed, I believe I am correct in saying that it is still sitting on the Cook Report. That, however, is the date by which the Minister has said a decision must be made. As I have suggested on more than one occasion, I hope that he will seek the views of some of the smaller producers and that, before any decision is taken, he will consult as many small producers as possible.
  I was shocked, as were many other people, by the Minister's statement a few weeks ago when he said that he had no specific proposals to put forward. He should be the first person to put forward specific proposals and he should not rely upon two organisations only to make up their minds how the scheme should be implemented. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will be able to tell us whom he has consulted about this proposal. Both organisations have in the past rejected proposals of this nature.

  137
  To turn briefly to beef, I believe that the fall in the production of beef is closely linked with the insecurity and instability of the beef market. In the December White Paper, we had the statement that demand for beef was strong and that there was clearly scope for expansion. That was one of the platitudes of the White Paper.
  Milk is not a commodity which a farmer wants to produce if he can avoid doing so. It involves a great deal of trouble, a seven-day week and a large amount of labour trouble. I am sure that if there were an assurance for our beef producers, if the price of beef did not from time to time fall into the doldrums, many of the people who now contribute to excess milk production would turn to beef and some of the Minister's problems would be averted.
  The time has come seriously to reconsider the setting up of a meat marketing board to take over the overall marketing of beef and all other meat products. When he goes to market, the farmer is at the mercy of imports, weather, over-abundance and the skill of middlemen and dealers. As a result of that combination, the difference between the price to the producer and the cost to the consumer is taken from him. It is scandalous that the housewife has to pay such a large amount of money for her weekly joint when, at the same time, beef is so unprofitable for the producer to produce. There should be a serious inquiry into the setting up of a scheme whereby a farmer would know when he is rearing a calf what price he would eventually get for the carcass when it is marketed.
  The White Paper reports a reduction in the number of calves kept for beef. Has the Minister any figures of the latest position? Concerning artificial insemination fees, I should like him, in order to increase the number of calves kept for beef, to consider a scheme to reimburse the artificial insemination fee for a beef type insemination if and when the calf has been kept for six months. That is rather to make repayment for the calf which has been kept. That may be some way to achieve the objective which, as I understand it, the Minister has.
  I turn briefly to cereals. It is rather staggering to find that of the £150 mil-
  138
  lion which go towards price guarantees £63 million go to barley. That compares with a mere £11 million for fat cattle and £11 million for milk. I wonder who is supposed to benefit from this staggering, colossal figure which goes to those products? I was seriously concerned, even before the present outcry in the agricultural Press, about the amount which goes to barley. Last year £25 million went to barley. This year the estimate is—and I use that word "estimate" advisedly—that £33 million will go to barley. One looks at the pre-war average quantity of barley grown, or even at the figure for 1946–47, or even last year, when 3 million acres of barley were grown. This year there is this staggering increase of a further 300,000 acres. There has been a vast increase of production between 1954 and this year.
  Undoubtedly the barley farmers of this country are seriously worried and alarmed at the dumping which has been going on in recent weeks. The Minister has announced his scheme as an incentive to farmers to retain their barley till later in the season, particularly after Christmas. One wonders, in the light of the dumping which has been going on in recent weeks, whether that scheme will have any effect whatsoever on this year's harvest. We are told by fairly authoritative sources who have made estimates that if the present dumping goes on the subsidies for barley will not be £25 million as last year or £33 million as estimated this year but will rise to £40 million, and one of the objectives of the White Paper, which was to contain the Exchequer payments for cereals, particularly for barley, within reasonable limits, will be blown sky-high.
  The Minister said today that he was seriously considering the anti-dumping laws. Time is short. There is no time seriously to consider this issue. It is action which is needed. Here we are faced with the Russians exporting to us barley, depressing the price to such an extent that it is lower than it has been since pre-war years, and the French are continuing to dump it at £10 less per ton than the French farmers are getting for it. The farmers, the taxpayers, everyone in this country is entitled to demand from the Minister immediate action.

  139
  I say this honestly and sincerely, that if at the end of the year a Supplementary Estimate is introduced into the House to increase the amount of the subsidies paid for barley from £33 million to any figure in excess of that, there will be a serious outcry both in this Chamber and in the country as a whole. It will mean that the barley farmers have been ruined for this year, and it will mean that the taxpayer will have thrown millions of pounds down the drain because of the inactivity of the Minister and his Department.
  I have no time to deal with horticulture, but some of us spent many weeks in Committee on the Bill dealing with the horticultural industry, and the Minister's predecessor stated, during the passage of that Bill, that the Government had adopted the tariff as the main instrument and that they would continue that policy for the horticulturists. The horticulturists want to know whether the Government, in view of the development of the Common Market, still intend to keep the tariff as the main instrument for horticulture. I think that the horticulturists are entitled to some assurance from the Minister so that they may know where they stand. They are entitled to know the worst.
  Whatever profit and stability the agricultural industry has today, it has arisen entirely from the charter of 1947 and the deliberate policy of guarantees built up over the years, guarantees honoured in the last few years more in the breach than in the observance. Whatever prosperity our agriculture has it owes to that charter, the object of which was to secure reasonable stability for the farmers, which they did not have in pre-war years, and at the same time a supply of cheap food for the housewife. Is all that to be dismantled with Britain's entry into the Common Market? The director of a research station at Oxford has given figures showing that if we enter the Common Market it will cost the housewife 1s. a week on food.
  The issue of the Commonwealth has been debated today. We know about the high tariff wall of 20 to 25 per cent. that now surrounds the Common Market countries against products imported into those countries. I do not know whether the British housewife is prepared to pay such tariffs as the price of entry. If
  140
  the Commonwealth means anything at all and if there is any point in a Commonwealth conference and in a joint approach, now is the time to have such an approach from all the Commonwealth countries.
  The strongest indictment that I can make of the Government and of the Minister is that they have abandoned every outward show of leadership on the Common Market. Their hesitation and equivocation mean that they have lost the entire confidence of the farming community. There are many people in that community who firmly believe that if it is in the interest of the City of London and of industrialists who support the party opposite, and if it will ensure the return of the party opposite to power at election after election, the farming community will be dropped overnight.
  No White Paper has been published on this issue. We have had White Papers over the years on the most trivial subjects, but here is an issue which concerns the living of hundreds of thousands of men and women and we have had no indication from the Government where they stand and what will be the position of the producers of each and every product if we enter the Common Market. The least that we could have had from the Government was some such indication. There is no point in the hon. Member for Devon, North making up his mind that we should sign the Treaty, accept it and negotiate afterwards.
  Sir Henry Studholme: The hon. Member for Devon, North (Mr. Thorpe) is not a supporter of the Government. He is a member of the Liberal Party.
  Mr. Morris: Certainly, and I am grateful for that observation. I am saying that it is the Government's responsibility to produce facts and figures in the form of a White Paper so that every hon. Member can make up his or her mind. It has been said that the Government cannot reveal their cards while negotiations are going on.
  Mr. Harold Davies: That is an old one.
  Mr. Morris: But this is not a game of cards. It is a battle of life or death for the farming community and the least

  141
  that we can demand from the Government is a White Paper on this issue.
  8.53 p.m.
  Mr. Brian Harrison: I was interested to follow the remarks of the hon. Member for Aberavon (Mr. Morris), particularly in his final flood, because what my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agiculture did today was to put out some signposts, and pretty obvious ones, concerning the Government's attitude towards the agricultural and horticultural industry in connection with our entering the European Common Market. After the strength with which my right hon. Friend put his case at the conclusion of his speech, there will be many people who will be much happier over the negotiations which are now going on about the possibility of our entering the Common Market.
  The last few months have seen a great difference in the attitude of people towards the Common Market, and discussions like the one today will help very greatly, because not only is there an economic problem in our going into the Common Market, but it will call for a big readjustment in outlook as well and we shall have to adopt a different attitude towards our competitors across the Channel.
  I was extremely interested in what the hon. Member for Devon, North (Mr. Thorpe) had to say. I found it intriguing how he justified the acceptance by the Liberal Party of an organisation like the Common Market, which is essentially protectionist. I thought that the way in which, when challenged on that, he made the point that it would lead eventually to world free trade, including North and South America, was carrying things just a little far.
  With regard to our own industry, I feel that a number of farmers in this country need fear very little from the competition that we should encounter in the Common Market. For instance, the corn farmers would find that because of their greater efficiency, their mechanisation, the size of their holdings and also, if one can so judge, from the economic price that Continental growers get today, that they have nothing to fear. In fact, I would hazard a guess that they would be even better off than they are at present.
  Mr. R. H. Turton: But surely they would be liable to the import of surplus wheat from the other Common Market countries just as the German corn farmers are today suffering from the import of French wheat and barley?
  Mr. Harrison: I agree with my right hon. Friend, but at the same time it would not be possible for that surplus wheat to be subsidised by the country of origin and, therefore, it would not be profitable for long for that country to go on exporting wheat at £14, £15 or £16 per ton as we are finding in the United Kingdom markets at present.
  The effect on certain other products such as beef and lamb would be quite favourable. There seems to be a general shortage in the area as far as one can tell. It would be very interesting, particularly after recent events in Denmark, to see just how the high quality British bacon which is gradually coming on to the market could compete with the bacon produced by the Danes. I had an interesting talk to a pig farmer during the weekend, and he gave me the impression that he felt that, other things being equal, with the increase in quality today with our pigs he should be able to compete with the Danes on level terms.
  However, there is considerable doubt in the case of dairy products other than, probably, high quality milk. In this sphere the people who may well be affected are the small farmers, particularly those who have been encouraged by our legislation to take on additional commitments and to borrow money, who have been encouraged by Government grants to borrow more money. They may find themselves in a difficult position.
  I hope that my right hon. Friend will consider very carefully before anything is done which may upset those people. Not only do we have a debt to the taxpayers for the money which is being put into the farms, but we have a moral debt to the people whom we have encouraged to take on obligations by borrowing or putting their capital into new improvement schemes.
  I feel that when one looks over the whole picture of British agriculture, particularly arable agriculture, as we are very highly mechanised and have larger

  143
  farm holdings we can compete with the Europeans. However, there is a problem with regard to certain other parts of the industry. For instance, the horticultural industry, which is at present supported entirely by tariffs, will feel very strongly the cold wind of competition from the Continent, and something will have to be done to make sure that these people, who again have been encouraged to spend money on improving the efficiency of their holdings, are not put at a great disadvantage, and, in fact, put out of business, because the better climates in southern Europe make it possible for crops which have to be grown under special conditions in this country to be grown more cheaply and economically outside. I think the horticultural crops normally grown outside on our farms will be able to be competitive, but those grown in glasshouses will have very great difficulty.
  Then, one comes to another aspect of this industry which, so far as I know, has not been discussed today, and that is the seed-growing industry. We have built up, particularly over the last 30 years, a seed trade which is producing seeds specially developed for the conditions in this country, and if this trade is to feel the full force of competition from climates that are slightly more benevolent than our own, it too will be in a very difficult position. I hope that before any move is made towards Europe my right hon. Friend will have found time to do something about the Transactions in Seed Committee's Report, which will help our seed-growing industry and seed production extensively. This is one of the few countries left in Europe and North America in which it is not possible to patent seeds, and the sooner legislation can be introduced to do something to protect our growers and breeders of seeds, the stronger their position will be in order to meet the competition.
  One other aspect which also comes under my right hon. Friend's Department and which has not been raised today concerns the effect on forestry. The forestry industry has suffered the ravages of two world wars but is now just beginning to get on its feet. I think we will have to look very carefully at the effect on forestry of any integration with the Common Market. At the same time, to mention one more of the
  144
  minority parts of the industry, the nursery trade was briefly mentioned by my right hon. Friend. There, there is a most complicated integration with the European countries which will have to be looked at, or we may find that nursery growers will completely go from this country.
  There is one final point to put to my right hon. Friend. He is not only Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries, but also Minister of Food, and one of his Votes gives a guaranteed price or a subsidy to Australian beef producers. I hope that he will find the opportunity, when these consultations are going on with the Commonwealth, to go to some of these Commonwealth countries in order to carry on the liaison work which has been done through the heads of departments, I think, every November. It would be tragic if, owing to a desire to enter the European Common Market, we did not carry the Commonwealth with us, with all the implications that might result from such a situation.
  To sum up, I would say that when one measures the economic effects of our integration with Europe, on balance, there is probably an advantage in going in with Europe, rather than remaining as an area where surplus production could be dumped. But I ask my right hon. Friend to consider carefully and to weigh up whether there might be some advantage in taking part in negotiations to decide on the European agricultural policy, rather than that we should delay and finally have to be forced to join the Common Market on terms arranged by other people.
  9.6 p.m.
  Mr. Frederick Peart: It is a pleasure to have an opportunity to debate the subject of agriculture, and I think that the Opposition should be complimented on taking the initiative and using a Supply day to raise this important subject. I recognise that many hon. Members have not spoken in the debate and I recognise also that looming over this important discussion, in which we are considering the effects of Government policy on agriculture, is the great issue of the Common Market. Like the Minister, I should prefer to leave my remarks on that matter to the end of my speech.

  145
  Irrespective of the Common Market question, today we are discussing what is the Government's agriculture policy. That is the issue. It may well be that political decisions of a major kind, which are outside the province of the Minister, will have to be taken. But today we are discussing whether this Government have pursued a policy which is in the interests of consumers as well as producers. I wish to examine the objectives of Government policy. The Minister gave details which merely emphasised aspects of his policy regarding commodities as expressed in the Price Review. Actually, he gave a clearer political appreciation of his policy to the Farmers' Club in May of this year.
  The Minister told us that in the post-war period the main objectives of the Government's agriculture policy was to produce all we could. He may think that was then the policy, and certainly it was in a general sense. But it was not the only aspect of the policy of the then Labour Government. Not only did we seek to produce more food but we also sought to give a fair remuneration to the producers and to the farm workers, and, above all, to link it with a policy to improve social amenities and to prevent the continuation of the pre-war drift from the countryside.
  In addition, we had obligations to the new international organisations which were emerging in that post-war world, such as the Food and Agriculture Organisation of the United Nations, of which mention has been made. I agree, however, that our main objective was to produce more. Indeed, the then Labour Government set a target for increased agricultural production. More than that, they injected capital into the industry. I am glad that the Minister himself has paid tribute to our work in that period. He mentioned the sad history of the inter-war years and how there had been a change, and he paid a generous tribute to the Labour Government in the post-war period, saying that conditions had been improved and that stability had been given to the industry.
  He said that our objective was now changed and, to quote his speech to the Farmers' Club, we were now in a position in which we had got to sell all we could. He then proceeded to make an attack on what he termed restrictionism. He argued that it was a popular rallying
  146
  cry of those attacking the Government policy. Even this evening, in replying to my hon. Friend the Member for Aberavon (Mr. Morris) about milk production, he referred specifically to that.
  I remind the right hon. Gentleman that the main attack on Government policy in our previous debate, when we discussed the Price Review, a little more than twelve months ago, was made by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Mr. Turton). It was an attack which has been repeated not only here by former Ministers, but throughout the country by responsible farming opinion. It is not sufficient for hon. Members opposite to chide my hon. Friends for quoting speeches. Today and on previous occasions my hon. Friends have always been careful to quote responsible farming opinion, National Farmers' Union policy, as expressed through the Union's national organisation at Agriculture House, and the resolutions which have come from county branches of the N.F.U. since we have had Conservative Administrations.
  We have always known that politically the Ministry of Agriculture was the graveyard of Conservative politicians. We have already had four Ministers of Agriculture. [HON. MEMBERS: "They were good Ministers."] If they were good Ministers, why did the Government not keep them there?
  Mr. Grant-Ferris: Rubbish.
  Mr. Peart: If the last Minister of Agriculture was successful in his administration, the Prime Minister owed a responsibility to this great industry to keep him there, but he has been shunted off and hon. Members know it. [Interruption.] It is not enough for hon. Members opposite to express disgust. Over and over again, there have been criticisms of Conservative Ministers by hon. Members opposite and their criticisms have been reinforced by responsible farming opinion. The hon. Member for Nantwich (Mr. Grant-Ferris) will remember the crisis we had about pigs not long ago and the uncertainties which then existed. It is true that the present Minister has done something and has changed the policy.
  Mr. Grant-Ferris: Very often the preliminary and very important work is done by a preceding Minister and the

  147
  next Minister takes the necessary action. I do not say that to belittle what my right hon. Friend has done.
  Mr. Peart: I am surprised that the hon. Member should make such a naive comment. I will leave it at that.
  While accepting the second objective of Government policy, that we have to sell more and improve marketing arrangements, one of my main criticisms of the Government is that they always say that it must be the responsibility of the industry. That was the theme of the Minister's speech not long ago. I detect that same theme here, especially in relation to marketing. That was the main charge made by my hon. Friend. The Government are responsible for taking the initiative in marketing. It was a very successful Labour Minister, Lord Addison as he now is, who brought in the Marketing Acts before the Second World War. I believe that it was also a successful Minister, my noble Friend who is now in another place, who completed the progress of those Acts in the post-war era. We did not change our Ministers so often, because they were successful. We took the initiative then, and the Government ought now to announce their marketing policy.
  I accept that the farmers—the producers—and the workers in the industry must also make constructive suggestions, but the Minister is responsible for legislation, and he must take the initiative in this case. Despite the offer of £500,000 for research into marketing, the Government ought to take the initiative and announce their policy.
  I have argued that the Government have shown no initiative. When we were in power we took the initiative, and I go back to the 1947 Act. Hon. Gentlemen opposite, and indeed the Minister, in discussions about the Common Market and in their conversations with the National Farmers' Union, argue that we must keep intact the main provisions of the 1947 Act, and indeed the 1957 Act. Hon. Gentlemen opposite have never liked the planning proposals which we put forward in that period. The hon. Member for Bodmin (Mr. Marshall) knows this. His party voted against Part I of the Bill when we were laying down the basic principle of providing an assured market.
  Mr. Marshall: The discussion on that occasion was on guaranteed prices and an assured market. The question of the assured market was left fluid, and so was the question of market prices.
  Mr. Peart: No. Hon. Gentlemen opposite voted against it because they disliked it. Time and again we had to face the jibe that we were farming from Whitehall. Time and again we had to face the jibe about the planning of agriculture which was so successful, and which I believe hon. Gentlemen opposite would like to weaken. I believe that many hon. Gentlemen opposite wish to make a hasty decision on the Common Market because they desire to weaken the main planning provisions contained in the 1947 Act.
  When one examines the 1947 Act, and indeed the 1957 Act, one finds that there has been a decline in the position of the primary producer. The 1957 Act legislated for declining incomes, and if one examines the position not only of the small farmer but of the average farmer, one finds that real incomes have declined. As my hon. Friend the Member for Leek (Mr. Harold Davies) so vigorously stressed, hon. Gentlemen opposite must face the reality of the situation that, while other sections of the community have increased their incomes by an average of 40 per cent., despite increased production and increased efficiency, the real incomes of farmers have decreased.
  Mr. Corfield: Does not the hon. Member agree that if the total sum provided by the Price Review was designed to maintain incomes at the 1948 level it would amount to about £448 million per annum? Would his party advocate the spending of a sum of that magnitude by the Exchequer?
  Mr. Peart: It is not for me to say what amount of subsidy we would pay, when we have no political power, but when we were politically responsible farm incomes increased in real terms, and there was prosperity in the countryside. Today, after successive Conservative Governments, farm incomes have decreased in real terms. That is the main charge of many of the farming community, and especially of the N.F.U.
  I have here details issued by the N.F.U. of its own farm account scheme.

  149
  This is a recent publication giving the figures for 1959–60. Is the Liberal Party making another of its asinine interruptions? Has it anything to say?
  Mr. Holt: I was not saying anything to the hon. Member. I turned to my hon. Friend and said that I thought that far too much attention was paid to the views of the N.F.U.
  Mr. Peart: It is important to take a survey of the views of the National Farmers' Union into consideration. That is not to say that we should always accept those views, any more than we should accept the views of manufacturing associations or other federations. I am merely asserting the fact that the union's views are important. I am arguing that the policies of the union would be better served if we had a Government which really believed in the principles of the 1947 Act. I have argued this over and over again. The Union's farm account scheme survey shows the difficulties which many farmers are in.
  I agree that the question of producer grants, aid to our agricultural system, and the whole issue of our support for the industry are major problems. I have argued that the time has come for an inquiry into the question of the incidence of production grants, which are now running at a high figure. I need not quote the details, because I believe that hon. Members have read them in the Government White Paper. We must examine constructively and carefully the question of the agricultural pattern. At present the greater part of the subsidies and grants go to the larger farmers and producers, and I should welcome an inquiry into the incidence of these subsidies.
  I go further than that. We should set up a Select Committee, just as we have a Select Committee on the Nationalised Industries, to investigate industries like agriculture. We should have a permanent Committee to examine not only these grants but the administration of the Department and of the public boards connected with the industry. My main charge, however, is that as a result of this Government's policy the small farmer is placed at a considerable disadvantage.
  150
  I turn to another argument which was brought up in our discussions on the Budget. Hon. Members will probably agree that the Budget did not help the small farmer. The National Farmers' Union—I take its views on this—has criticised it in strong language. In its official publication British Farmer it says:
  "This Budget puts up the costs of producing the nation's food and hits small farmers—the great majority—the hardest of all".
  The Chairman: Order. The hon. Member cannot discuss legislation on a Supply day.
  Mr. Peart: I am not discussing legislation. I am merely arguing that Government policy has not been designed to help the small farmer. I was going on to say that the same pattern is repeated in horticulture. One of its leading spokesmen, the chairman of the N.F.C. Central Horticultural Committee, has criticised Government policy. Government policy has destroyed confidence among small producers. It is no good hon. Members opposite shaking their heads. It is a fact, and it has found expression time and time again among responsible farming opinion.
  I come now to discuss barley. The Minister mentioned his policy. What does he intend to do about the dumping of barley on to the British market? It is not sufficient to say that he is considering the matter. He has all the facts. We saw an admirable statement of the position the other day in papers like the Observer. Its very well informed agricultural expert gave the details. Russian shipments are coming in. They have knocked the bottom out of the British grain market. They have placed the future of the year's record home crop in jeopardy, and there is no prospect of recovery. This is true not only of Russian production but also of French production. There is to be dumping of surplus barley at £10 a ton less than French farmers receive. I understand that last week even the West Germans made offers to deliver barley for harvest time at less than £16 a ton duty paid.
  The Union has made urgent representations. The taxpayer is involved. If this situation continues, the problem of deficiency payments will arise. In the end the consumer and the producer will

  151
  suffer. That is why I ask what the Government intend to do. Why all this dither and delay? Why does not the Minister announce now that something will be done.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Leek talked about promotion within the industry. There are many skilled people in the industry who will never get promotion because they have not got the capital. Why do not the Government now afford cheap credit facilities? We have suggested this over and over again in agricultural debates. Time and time again, not only by Conservative Chancellors making statements but in party publications, the Conservative Party has promised that it would give cheap credit to help small farmers. Why has nothing been done? Why is there still silence? If there is to be a policy to encourage new, young, thrusting men in the industry, the real deciding factor is whether cheap credit is available.
  What about agricultural research? The Research Council Report states that over £5 million is to be allocated to research. We recognise that much has been done in this respect, but it is too little. The volume of agricultural production is approximately £1,400 million a year. Yet the State is spending only a relatively small amount.
  We have only one advisory entymologist for 4,000 farmers and only one plant pathologist for 7,000 farmers. We are still short in the National Agricultural Advisory Service. I understand that it has never really expanded since 1951. I can well understand why, when scientific officers are paid less than civil servants in a similar grade. When do the Government intend to do something about expanding the N.A.A.S., or doing something about agricultural education?
  I have here the report of a subcommittee which emerged from discussions arising from the de la Warr Report, the Lampard-Vachell Committee on the figures of day releases. Those figures are bad—shocking. In 1957–58 only 1,963 students were released from their agricultural occupations by their employers. Even today that figure is only 3,737. In other words, in the matter of day release the agricultural industry is lagging behind other industries. What do the Government intend to do about
  152
  that? Are they to have a campaign? Do they intend to have further consultations? Do they intend to do something about it—or do they intend just to make speeches? I want to know, because nothing effective has been done so far, and there is a long delay.
  Then there is water conservation. The Land Drainage Bill has recently had its Third Reading, but it took ten years before the Government made up their mind to introduce it. What is the Government's policy on water conservation? The Land Drainage Bill was limited, but it was an example of the procrastination of the Government. Do the Government intend to have further discussions with the water undertakings? Are we to have a major policy? We could go on indicting the Government for their failure to give a major lead.
  There is the great issue of the Common Market. There are differences of opinion about that. Even the Minister himself has had to hedge on this. I understand his difficulties, but the Government should give us the facts; they should give us more information. As my hon. Friend the Member for Aberavon said, why cannot we have a White Paper on the subject? Surely the Government know their mind by now. They have at their disposal skilled statisticians, economists and others to prepare documents and advise on the implications of the Common Market in relation to our agricultural industry.
  We have a right to know this. It is all very well for the Minister and for hon. Members of the Liberal Party to chide my hon. Friend for saying that we as an Opposition should commit ourselves now. I recognise that the Liberal Party can commit itself on anything—
  Mr. Thorpe: Would the hon. Gentleman agree that it is one thing to have a view as a result of having made inquiries and research, but quite another thing to get up at that Dispatch Box and not have a clue as to which direction one's party wants to go?
  Mr. Peart: The hon. Member made a long speech, and I thought his offer to give my hon. Friend a constitutional lecture was rather pompous. I understand where the Liberal Party is on this—

  153
  [HON. MEMBERS: "Where is it?"]—but we are the responsible Opposition, who may one day be the responsible Government.
  The Government must make the decision about this, knowing all the facts. It is the Government's responsibility, equally, to give hon. Members the facts. It is their responsibility not to dither, hedge or be evasive. They must come clean.
  Government spokesmen have spoken with many voices about this matter. There was one shade of emphasis in the speech of the Leader of the House on a previous occasion. Then there was the speech of the Foreign Secretary recently. Then there were the philosophical generalities, as one newspaper termed a recent speech of the Prime Minister. Considering everything that Government spokesmen have said, I can well understand why the farming world is worried about their policies. I am worried because I know that the Tories let agriculture down before the war. They are letting it down again now—irrespective of the Common Market.
  There is a danger, because of the inertia of the Government, that the industry will be sucked into a solution of Britain's agricultural problems in a common European structure. That would be dangerous. I hope that, before any major decision is taken, hon. Members on both sides of the Committee will take into consideration all the relevant facts affecting the primary producers, the farmers, the farm workers and, most important of all, the consumers, who may have to pay higher food prices.
  The Government's policy has been evasive in relation to the major issues at home, so that many farming people have lost confidence—a loss that could prove fatal in the future.
  9.37 p.m.
  The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Mr. W. M. F. Vane): An agricultural debate always ranges far and wide, and the debate today has ranged further and wider than usual, both overseas and at home. Both the hon. Gentlemen who opened the debate, the hon. Member for Lincoln (Mr. de Freitas) and the hon. Member for Workington (Mr. Peart) spoke firstly
  154
  about the problems nearer home. In replying to the debate, I will try to follow the same pattern.
  I will, firstly, refer briefly to several of the points raised by the hon. Member for Workington. He spoke of an in genious idea; a select committee which would concern itself with agriculture and, I think, with other major industries. The Minister of Agriculture, I must inform the hon. Gentleman, answers in detail for agriculture to the House, which puts it in a different position from the nationalised industries, and I would hardly have thought that a select committee of the sort the hon. Member for Workington had in mind would add greatly to our administration in the House.
  Then the hon. Gentleman spoke about credit. May I inform him that he is rather out of date on this question? There was a certain amount of criticism in the countryside a little time ago—
  Mr. Peart: There is still criticism.
  Mr. Vane: The hon. Gentleman will always be able to find someone who wants a little more, but if he takes close notice in his constituency and talks to the National Farmers' Union—if he is able to do so, since we have been told not to pay too much attention to the N.F.U.—he will not find many cases of creditworthy farmers who cannot get what they need.
  The hon. Member for Workington then spoke of the National Agricultural Advisory Service, and I would, at this point, pay tribute to the work it has done. The Service has done remarkable work in recent years and stands high in the opinion of farmers. The Service is always ready to recruit a few extra good men when it can find them, but it will not lower its standards merely in order to add to its numbers.
  The hon. Gentleman also spoke about agricultural education. This matter is not strictly within the ambit of my Department. He also referred to research generally and quoted certain figures. I can inform him that, with the increasing quantity of capital flowing into the industry, and farm improvement schemes, the need for certain new branches of research, particularly farm buildings, has arisen. This is not directly the responsibility of my Department, but I can say that the

  155
  expenditure on research generally is increasing and that the Minister for Science takes a close interest in this work, as we do in this Department.
  Turning to the background of our debate, I think we are all agreed, in spite of some of the comments, that farming incomes are higher than they have ever been. The hon. Gentleman spoke about the comparison between farming incomes and the incomes of other industries. It is inevitable in an expanding economy, with a high standard of living, and more luxury items than were possible some time ago, that the proportion spent on food may tend to be less than on other items and, therefore, that the aggregate income of the agricultural community may not keep pace with the aggregate income of some other industries.
  On the other hand, I am sure the Committee would like to know that in an F.A.O. table of agricultural incomes the United Kingdom and Denmark stand at the head of the European league, even though I admit that Australia and New Zealand, with their economies depending more on agriculture do in fact stand ahead of us.
  Not only are farm incomes today higher than they have ever been, but production is also at a record level and I am going to claim in addition that the land has never been better farmed than it is today. I think I can call in aid two sentences from speeches of hon. Members opposite. The hon. Member for Pembroke (Mr. Donnelly) said that British farming was modern and thriving and the hon. Member for Norfolk, North (Mr. Gooch) said that British agriculture had nothing to be ashamed of and much to be proud of. I agree with both those sentiments. Never has there been more interest taken in improvements of all kinds, and not least in efficiency, if I may use that dirty word, in both the technical and the economic senses. It is still true to say that there are more good men wanting to enter the industry than ever before—nor is it for sentimental reasons as someone suggested.
  There have been a few dismal passages in some of the speeches, such as we would get at many farmers' meetings and
  156
  which we have come to expect in agricultural debates. If we did not get a few such speeches, most of us would think something was wrong. It is many years since I first became associated with the industry, and in those days things were very different from what they are now. There have always been people ready to say that they are frustrated and uncertain. But let us be clear. The trend for many years has been in the right direction, and still is. All forms of business have their own problems and no Government could solve them all for any industry.
  Agriculture over recent years has been able to rely on Government support, including the support of the Government of hon. Members opposite, to ensure stability and insurance against major fluctuations in the price of its products, but we must admit, as has been said several times today, that the present system may well be becoming more costly to maintain. I should like to emphasise the words of my right hon. Friend that the Government are resolutely determined to maintain a thriving industry.
  A large number of points have been raised in the course of the debate, and I shall try to answer as many as I can. First, I shall refer to the speech of the hon. Member for Lincoln. He raised the question of the tests of the British breeds alongside the tests which are going to be held with the imported young Charollais bulls. The Ministry proposes to undertake a small progeny test within the limits of the facilities available, and records are going to be collected from commercial farms and farms of agricultural colleges and farm institutes which are willing to rear Charollais crosses alongside and in similar circumstances with native beef crosses. That, I think, will meet the greater part of his question.
  Then the hon. Gentleman spoke about the marketing of horticultural produce and the experimental Dutch auction. I think that I can help him here. The A.C.C.A. and the N.F.U. have announced that the Gloucestershire Marketing Society Limited is now considering setting up such an auction at Cheltenham. If the experimental auction were tried—I cannot anticipate what the decision may be—it seems that the Horticultural Marketing Council could

  157
  legitimately use some of its funds to help under the Horticulture Act. Therefore, there is not stagnation under that head.
  The hon. Gentleman and other hon. Members spoke about the question of dumping and our anti-dumping legislation. Here, I should like to make a few points as it seems to me that there is some misunderstanding about the matter. First, my right hon. Friend said that this legislation was not designed to give blanket protection. The Act is designed to deal with specific incidents, and in this sense it is wrong to imply that it is ineffective. Anti-dumping duties have, admittedly, been imposed on only a few occasions, but where the Government have been satisfied that the requirements of the Act have been met they have taken action, often in the form of direct representation to the country concerned, which has effectively stopped the dumping.
  Secondly, it is worth bearing in mind that the Government do not take action just because imports are, in a technical sense, being dumped. The Board of Trade has to be satisfied that material injury is being caused or threatened to the industry concerned and that it would be in the national interest if we imposed an anti-dumping duty. If that were done regardless, then we have to consider the question of other countries following suit and retaliation. We must bear in mind that we are also a major exporting country.
  Finally, the Board of Trade can deal with anti-dumping applications very quickly. It has done so when the need has arisen. It did so the other day, even though the issue did not, in the end, involve an anti-dumping ruling.
  Mr. de Freitas: It took five months in connection with the egg application.
  Mr. Vane: It took only eight days in connection with the egg application the other day.
  Of course, all imports are not dumped, and, as we are a country which is dependent on international trade, it is in our broad interest to keep down barriers to our trade all over the world, and we make trade agreements and enter international obligations with that end in view. Reciprocal obligations have
  158
  to be accepted. To go against such agreements or to throw them aside lightly would invite retaliation and provoke damage to our export trade.
  I make these points to indicate that the alteration of our policy on food imports in the manner suggested could easily raise deep and serious issues, and the balance sheet would not necessarily be prepared quite as simply and satisfactorily as some hon. Members have supposed. Above all, we must remember that we have obligations under the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade, which limit our freedom of action.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Horncastle (Sir J. Maitland) spoke about the needy four-fifths of the world's population in connection with growing world production. It is very attractive to suggest that any surpluses that we may have should be made freely available to those in need. We already make substantial contributions, mainly in cash, but also by technical assistance, in developing those countries. But the permanent solution is the development of the countries concerned and not the giving to them of one's agricultural surpluses. We are not, of course, among those with massive surpluses.
  Mr. Peart: Why should we accept agricultural supluses from countries like Russia when countries like China are getting cheap credit facilities from countries like Canada for the same products? It is crazy.
  Mr. Vane: I have tried to explain that the problem is not as easy and simple as hon. Members have suggested. In the minutes which remain available to me, I should like to answer some of the questions which hon. Members have raised in the debate.
  As I say, we make contributions in other ways. But these surpluses are not, in the main, ours to dispose of. Nor is it our intention to be freely at the receiving end when it will not only upset our own producers, but will put a charge on the taxpayer and have other far-reaching effects.
  Mr. James Callaghan: What people are waiting to hear are the Government's conclusions about this problem. Are we going to stop the dumping of barley or are we allowing it

  159
  to continue? If the latter, to what extent in millions of pounds will the taxpayer be involved?
  Mr. Vane: That is a hypothetical question. Negotiations are proceeding with the Russians and I cannot anticipate the conclusions.
  Another question that was raised by many hon. Members was the small farmer. Perhaps for the first time this debate has shown him in proper perspective, because our small farmer is not small by European standards, nor is our land splintered in comparison with Continental standards. On average, our small farms are better equipped. The small farmer admittedly has the problem of staff. He may have too much work for two people and not enough for three, which is a difficulty, but all this points to the need to improve management techniques. In all our technical advances we have probably not yet paid as much attention to management as we have to some other sides of agricultural organisation and science.
  The question of amalgamation was raised during the debate. Admittedly, as yet few applications have been made for help under the 1957 Act, but the Committee will be interested to hear that a very large case is now under consideration. It was suggested by one hon. Member that only a small proportion of the production grants found their way to the small farmer. That is not true. If hon. Members look at the whole figure, they will find that something like 33 per cent. of total expenditure on production grants is spent in connection with farms of less than 100 acres. Nor is their evidence that many small farmers who have entered into financial commitments under the small farmer legislation or other Measures are failing in their obligations because of financial reasons. Occasionally, there is illness, death or a change of farm—those things are inevitable—but the suggestion that small farmers fail to keep up their commitments because of financial reasons is not, I am glad to say, true.
  The hon. Member for Norfolk, North spoke of the position of the agricultural worker and the steady trickle of workers out of the industry. The reduction in the numbers employed in agriculture is a phenomenon of all industrial countries.
  160
  The increase in agricultural production, combined with today's mechanisation, has meant that farmers have been working with a smaller labour force. Often when I have seen a man in bad weather sitting on a tractor the idea has struck me how much greater was the skill of that man than that of many of those who have helped to build the tractor in one of our great cities.
  Of course, we are concerned with amenities in the countryside. Depopulation interests us greatly. It is not the direct responsibility of my right hon. Friend. The population in country districts does not depend solely on agriculture. Agriculture may be the greatest employer, but there are other industries. As for redundancy, I have far more often heard of a farmer saying that he wants a good man or several good men if he could get them than I have heard a good man say that he could not find a job.
  Many hon. Members have spoken about the Common Market. As my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has said, and as my right hon. Friend the Minister has reiterated today, no decision on this great issue has been taken. It is, therefore, particularly useful to have had this debate today. We must be grateful to the Opposition for having provided this opportunity to hear the various views which have been expressed on this matter against the background of the general problem of the future of agriculture.
  A great many different views have been expressed over the entire range. It is clearly useful to the Government as well as to the House of Commons to hear these differences of opinion.
  Of course, it must be recognised at the present time that when I say I cannot add greatly to what my right hon. Friend has said, we are dealing with a subject when many of the factors are still very uncertain. It is not a subject which is cut and dried, as some hon. Gentlemen have suggested, as witness the references in the newspapers recently to a difference of opinion between France and Germany.
  On the question of the facts, there is a certain amount of information which is available to all hon. Gentlemen published by economists and others based on various assumptions, and the facts

  161
  as hon. Gentlemen put them at the present time are largely opinions based on various assumptions. We all know that there are certain markets such as the milk market, which is largely a national one; there are others such as the butter market, which is largely an international one. On the other hand, it is quite impossible at this stage to set down in parallel columns all the facts which will be relevant to the consideration of this problem in the future. Many of the countries which are concerned are not yet certain of many of the conditions of their preliminary policies, quite apart from their financial arrangements.
  I was interested to hear the anxiety which some hon. Members expressed about the increasing strain upon our present support system and the free market arising from increasing world production. Thus, whether we stay out of the Common Market, as we were urged by some hon. Gentlemen, or become part of it, as we were urged by others, we may well have to consider adaptations in our support system. There is nothing that I can add now to what my right hon. Friend has said on the implications in this respect of joining the Common Market. As he made clear and what several hon. Mem-
  bers have acknowledged, was a valuable assessment of the problem. A distinction, of course, must be made between methods and objectives. The objectives, are, of course, similar to our own; but the methods which the Six intend to employ are, of course, very different from those with which we have become familiar.
  Turning again to the hon. Gentleman the Member for Lincoln, his criticisms amounted to no very serious charge. On the broad issue there seems little between us. We both want to see a healthy and prosperous agriculture, and it is towards that end that our policy will continue to be directed.
  Mr. de Freitas: In view of the Government's refusal to give the implications, for which they were asked, of entering the Common Market, and in view of their refusal to deal with the dumping problem, especially on barley, I beg to move,
  That Item Class VIII, Vote I, Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, be reduced by £5.
  Question put:—
  The Committee divided: Ayes 171, Noes 252.

  Division No. 195.]

  AYES

  [9.59 p.m.

  Ainsley, William

  Evans, Albert

  Jay, Rt. Hon. Douglas

  Albu, Austen

  Fernyhough, E.

  Jeger, George

  Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

  Finch, Harold

  Jenkins, Roy (Stechford)

  Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

  Fletcher, Eric

  Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)

  Awbery, Stan

  Foot, Dingle (Ipswich)

  Jones, Elwyn (West Ham, S.)

  Bacon, Miss Alice

  Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton)

  Kelley, Richard

  Baird, John

  Gaitskell, Rt. Hon. Hugh

  Kenyon, Clifford

  Baxter, William (Stirlingshire, W.)

  George, Lady Megan Lloyd (Crmrthn)

  Key, Rt. Hon. C. W.

  Benson, Sir George

  Gooch, E. G.

  King, Dr. Horace

  Bowden, Herbert W. (Leics, S.W.)

  Gordon Walker, Rt. Hon. P. C.

  Lawson, George

  Bowen, Roderic (Cardigan)

  Gourlay, Harry

  Lee, Miss Jennie (Cannock)

  Boyden, James

  Greenwood, Anthony

  Lever, Harold (Cheetham)

  Brockway, A. Fenner

  Grey, Charles

  Lever, L. M. (Ardwick)

  Brown, Rt. Hon. George (Belper)

  Griffiths, Rt. Hon. James (Llanelly)

  Lewis, Arthur (West Ham, N.)

  Butler, Herbert (Hackney, C.)

  Griffiths, W. (Exchange)

  Lipton, Marcus

  Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)

  Grimond, J.

  Loughlin, Charles

  Callaghan, James

  Hale, Leslie (Oldham, W.)

  MacColl, James

  Castle, Mrs. Barbara

  Hall, Rt. Hn. Glenvil (Colne Valley)

  McKay, John (Wallsend)

  Cliffe, Michael

  Hamilton, William (West Fife)

  Mackie, John (Enfield, West)

  Corbet, Mrs. Freda

  Hannan, William

  McLeavy, Frank

  Craddock, George (Bradford, S.)

  Hart, Mrs. Judith

  MacPherson, Malcolm (Stirling)

  Cronin, John

  Hayman, F. H.

  Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg)

  Crossman, R. H. S.

  Healey, Denis

  Mallalieu, J.P.W. (Huddersfield, E.)

  Darling, George

  Herbison, Miss Margaret

  Manuel, A. C.

  Davies, Harold (Leek)

  Hewitson, Capt. M.

  Mapp, Charles

  Davies, Ifor (Gower)

  Hilton, A. V.

  Marquand, Rt. Hon. H. A.

  Deer, George

  Holman, Percy

  Mason, Roy

  de Freitas, Geoffrey

  Holt, Arthur

  Mendelson, J.

  Delargy, Hugh

  Houghton, Douglas

  Millan, Bruce

  Diamond, John

  Howell, Denis (Small Heath)

  Mitchison, G. R.

  Dodds, Norman

  Hunter, A. E.

  Monslow, Walter

  Donnelly, Desmond

  Hynd, H. (Accrington)

  Moody, A. S.

  Ede, Rt. Hon. C.

  Hynd, John (Attercliffe)

  Morris, John

  Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

  Irving, Sydney (Dartford)

  Moyle, Arthur

  Edwards, Walter (Stepney)

  Jenner, Sir Barnett

  Neal, Harold

  Noel-Baker, Francis (Swindon)

  Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

  Thornton, Ernest

  Noel-Baker, Rt. Hn. Philip (Derby, S.)

  Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon)

  Thorpe, Jeremy

  Oliver, G. H.

  Robertson, John (Paisley)

  Ungoed-Thomas, Sir Lynn

  Oram, A. E.

  Rogers, G. H. R. (Kensington, N.)

  Wade, Donald

  Oswald, Thomas

  Ross, William

  Wainwright, Edwin

  Owen, Will

  Short, Edward

  Warbey, William

  Padley, W. E.

  Skeffington, Arthur

  Weitzman, David

  Paget, R. T.

  Slater, Joseph (Sedgefield)

  Wells, William (Walsall, N.)

  Pannell, Charles (Leeds, W.)

  Small, William

  Whitlock, William

  Parker, John

  Sorensen, R. W.

  Wigg, George

  Pavitt, Laurence

  Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank

  Wilkins, W. A.

  Pearson, Arthur (Pontypridd)

  Spriggs, Leslie

  Willey, Frederick

  Peart, Frederick

  Steele, Thomas

  Williams, Ll. (Abertillery)

  Popplewell, Ernest

  Stewart, Michael (Fulham)

  Williams, W. R. (Openshaw)

  Prentice, R. E.

  Stonehouse, John

  Williams, W. T. (Warrington)

  Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

  Strachey, Rt. Hon. John

  Wilson, Rt. Hon. Harold (Huyton)

  Proctor, W. T.

  Stross, Dr. Barnett (Stoke-on-Trent, C.)

  Winterbottom, R. E.

  Pursey, Cmdr. Harry

  Swain, Thomas

  Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A.

  Randall, Harry

  Swingler, Stephen

  Woof, Robert

  Rankin, John

  Sylvester, George

  Yates, Victor (Ladywood)

  Redhead, E. C.

  Symonds, J. B.

  Reid, William

  Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

  Reynolds, G. W.

  Taylor, John (West Lothian)

  Mr. Charles A. Howell and

  Mr. McCann.

  NOES

  Agnew, Sir Peter

  d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

  Jackson, John

  Allason, James

  Deedes, W. F.

  James, David

  Arbuthnot, John

  de Ferranti, Basil

  Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich)

  Ashton, Sir Hubert

  Digby, Simon Wingfield

  Johnson, Dr. Donald (Carlisle)

  Atkins, Humphrey

  Doughty, Charles

  Johnson, Eric (Blackley)

  Barber, Anthony

  Duncan, Sir James

  Johnson Smith, Geoffrey

  Barlow, Sir John

  Duthie, Sir William

  Jones, Rt. Hn. Aubrey (Hall Green)

  Batsford, Brian

  Eden, John

  Kerans, Cdr. J. S.

  Baxter, Sir Beverley (Southgate)

  Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)

  Kerr, Sir Hamilton

  Bell, Ronald

  Emery, Peter

  Kershaw, Anthony

  Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gos & Fhm)

  Emmet, Hon. Mrs. Evelyn

  Kirk, Peter

  Berkeley, Humphry

  Errington, Sir Eric

  Kitson, Timothy

  Bevins, Rt. Hon. Reginald

  Farr, John

  Lancaster, Col. C. G.

  Bidgood, John C.

  Finlay, Graeme

  Langford-Holt, J.

  Birch, Rt. Hon. Nigel

  Fisher, Nigel

  Leather, E. H. C.

  Bishop, F. P.

  Fletcher-Cooke, Charles

  Leavey, J. A.

  Bossom, Clive

  Forrest, George

  Leburn, Gilmour

  Bourne-Arton, A.

  Fraser, Hn. Hugh (Stafford & Stone)

  Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry

  Box, Donald

  Fraser, Ian (Plymouth, Sutton)

  Lindsay, Martin

  Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hon. John

  Gammans, Lady

  Linstead, Sir Hugh

  Boyle, Sir Edward

  Gardner, Edward

  Litchfield, Capt. John

  Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. Sir Walter

  Gibson-Watt, David

  Lloyd, Rt. Hn. Geoffrey (Sut'nC'dfield)

  Brown, Alan (Tottenham)

  Glyn, Sir Richard (Dorset, N.)

  Longden, Gilbert

  Browne, Percy (Torrington)

  Goodhart, Philip

  Loveys, Walter H.

  Bryan, Paul

  Goodhew, Victor

  Low, Rt. Hon. Sir Toby

  Buck, Antony

  Gough, Frederick

  Lucas, Sir Jocelyn

  Bullard, Denys

  Gower, Raymond

  Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh

  Bullus, Wing Commander Eric

  Grant-Ferris, Wg Cdr. R.

  McAdden, Stephen

  Burden, F. A.

  Green, Alan

  McLaren, Martin

  Butcher, Sir Herbert

  Grimston, Sir Robert

  McLaughlin, Mrs. Patricia

  Butler, Rt. Hn. R. A. (Saffron Walden)

  Grosvenor, Lt.-Col. R. C.

  Maclean, Sir Fitzroy (Bute & N, Ayra.)

  Campbell, Sir David (Belfast, S.)

  Gurden, Harold

  Macmillan, Rt. Hn. Harold (Bromley)

  Campbell, Gordon (Moray & Nairn)

  Hall, John (Wycombe)

  Macmillan, Maurice (Halifax)

  Carr, Compton (Barons Court)

  Hamilton, Michael (Wellingborough)

  Macpherson, Niall (Dumfries)

  Carr, Robert (Mitcham)

  Hare, Rt. Hon. John

  Maddan, Martin

  Channon, H. P. G.

  Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N.W.)

  Maitland, Sir John

  Chichester-Clark, R.

  Harris, Reader (Heston)

  Manningham-Buller, Rt. Hn. Sir R.

  Clark, Henry (Antrim, N.)

  Harrison, Brian (Maldon)

  Markham, Major Sir Frank

  Clark, William (Nottingham, S.)

  Harvey, John (Walthamstow, E.)

  Marshall, Douglas

  Clarke, Brig, Terence (Portsmth, W.)

  Harvie Anderson, Miss

  Marten, Neil

  Cleaver, Leonard

  Hastings, Stephen

  Maudling, Rt. Hon. Reginald

  Cole, Norman

  Heald, Rt. Hon. Sir Lionel

  Mawby, Ray

  Cooper, A. E.

  Henderson-Stewart, Sir James

  Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.

  Cooper-Key, Sir Neill

  Hendry, Forbes

  Mills, Stratton

  Cordeaux, Lt.-Col. J. K.

  Hiley, Joseph

  More, Jasper (Ludlow)

  Cordie, John

  Hill, Dr. Rt. Hon. Charles (Luton)

  Morgan, William

  Corfield, F. V.

  Hill, J. E. B. (S. Norfolk)

  Morrison, John

  Costain, A. P.

  Hirst, Geoffrey

  Mott-Radclyffe, Sir Charles

  Coulson, J. M.

  Hobson, John

  Nabarro, Gerald

  Courtney, Cdr. Anthony

  Hollingworth, John

  Nicholson, Sir Godfrey

  Craddock, Sir Beresford

  Hopkins, Alan

  Noble, Michael

  Critchley, Julian

  Hornsby-Smith, Rt. Hon. Patricia

  Nugent, Sir Richard

  Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E.

  Howard, Hon. G. R. (St. Ives)

  Orr-Ewing, C. Ian

  Crowder, F. P.

  Howard, John (Southampton, Test)

  Osborn, John (Hallam)

  Cunningham, Knox

  Hughes-Young, Michael

  Page, John (Harrow, West)

  Curran, Charles

  Hulbert, Sir Norman

  Page, Graham (Crosby)

  Currie, G. B. H.

  Hurd, Sir Anthony

  Pannell, Norman (Kirkdale)

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Iremonger, T. L.

  Pearson, Frank (Clitheroe)

  D, James

  Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye)

  Peel, John

  164

  165

  Percival, Ian

  Shepherd, William

  van Straubenzee, W. R.

  Pickthorn, Sir Kenneth

  Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir Jocelyn

  Vane, W. M. F.

  Pike, Miss Mervyn

  Skeet, T. H. H.

  Vaughan-Morgan, Sir John

  Pitman, I. J.

  Smith, Dudley (Br'ntf'rd & Chiswick)

  Vickers, Miss Joan

  Pott, Percivall

  Smithers, Peter

  Vosper, Rt. Hon. Dennis

  Powell, Rt. Hon. J. Enoch

  Soames, Rt. Hon. Christopher

  Wakefield, Sir Wavell (St. M'lebone)

  Prior, J. M. L.

  Spearman, Sir Alexander

  Walder, David

  Proudfoot, Wilfred

  Steward, Harold (Stockport, S.)

  Walker, Peter

  Pym, Francis

  Stodart, J. A.

  Wall, Patrick

  Quennell, Miss J. M.

  Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir Malcolm

  Ward, Dame Irene

  Ramsden, James

  Storey, Sir Samuel

  Webster, David

  Rawlinson, Peter

  Studholme, Sir Henry

  Wells, John (Maidstone)

  Redmayne, Rt. Hon. Martin

  Tapsell, Peter

  Whitelaw, William

  Rees, Hugh

  Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

  Williams, Dudley (Exeter)

  Renton, David

  Taylor, Edwin (Bolton, E.)

  Wills, Sir Gerald (Bridgwater)

  Ridley, Hon. Nicholas

  Temple, John M.

  Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

  Ridsdale, Julian

  Thatcher, Mrs. Margaret

  Wise, A. R.

  Roberts, Sir Peter (Heeley)

  Thomas, Leslie (Canterbury)

  Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick

  Robinson, Sir Roland (Blackpool, S.)

  Thompson, Kenneth (Walton)

  Woodhouse, C. M.

  Roots, William

  Thompson, Richard (Croydon, S.)

  Woodnutt, Mark

  Ropner, Col. Sir Leonard

  Thorneycroft, Rt. Hon. Peter

  Woollam, John

  Royle, Anthony (Richmond, Surrey)

  Thornton-Kemsley, Sir Colin

  Worsley, Marcus

  Scott-Hopkins, James

  Tiley, Arthur (Bradford, W.)

  Yates, William (The Wrekin)

  Seymour, Leslie

  Turner, Colin

  Sharpies, Richard

  Turton, Rt. Hon. R. H.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

  Shaw, M.

  Tweedsmuir, Lady

  Mr. Edward Wakefield and

  Colonel Sir Harwood Harrison.

  Original Question again proposed.
  Mr. Ray Mawby Mr. Ray Mawby (Totnes) rose—
  It being after Ten o'clock, The CHAIRMAN left the Chair to report Progress and ask leave to sit again.
  Committee report Progress; to sit again Tomorrow.

  AGRICULTURE (FERTILISERS)
  Fertilisers (United Kingdom) Scheme, 1961 [draft laid before the House, 4th May], approved.—[Mr. Vane.]
  AGRICULTURE (FERTILISERS)

    ADJOURNMENT
    Resolved, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Chichester-Clark.]
    Adjourned accordingly at nine minutes past Ten o'clock.

MINISTRY OF HEALTH
  Poliomyelitis Vaccination (Middlesex Executive Council)
  Poliomyelitis Vaccination (Middlesex Executive Council)
  Physically Handicapped (Social Workers)
  Physically Handicapped (Social Workers)
  Snake Bites
  Snake Bites
  Prescriptions
  Prescriptions
  National Health Service (Regulations)
  National Health Service (Regulations)
  Medical Schools (Intake)
  Medical Schools (Intake)
HOSPITALS
  Operations (Vistodax Television)
  Operations (Vistodax Television)
  Administrative Committees
  Administrative Committees
  Consultant Ophthalmologists (Sheffield Regional Hospital Board)
  Consultant Ophthalmologists (Sheffield Regional Hospital Board)
  Hospital Pharmacists
  Hospital Pharmacists
  ANGOLA
  ANGOLA
  EUROPEAN COMMON MARKET
  EUROPEAN COMMON MARKET
  PRESIDENT SUKARNO
  PRESIDENT SUKARNO
  AUTOBAHN, BERLIN-WEST GERMANY (CONTROL POSTS)
  AUTOBAHN, BERLIN-WEST GERMANY (CONTROL POSTS)
  EUROPEAN FREE TRADE ASSOCIATION
  EUROPEAN FREE TRADE ASSOCIATION
  SOVIET UNION (ENGLISH LANGUAGE NEWSPAPERS)
  SOVIET UNION (ENGLISH LANGUAGE NEWSPAPERS)
  WESTERN EUROPEAN UNION (GERMAN ARMAMENTS)
  WESTERN EUROPEAN UNION (GERMAN ARMAMENTS)
  GERMANY (NUCLEAR WEAPONS)
  GERMANY (NUCLEAR WEAPONS)
  VIETNAM
  VIETNAM
  CHINA (UNITED NATIONS REPRESENTATION)
  CHINA (UNITED NATIONS REPRESENTATION)
  LAOS
  LAOS
EMPLOYMENT
  Factory Accidents (Young Persons)
  Factory Accidents (Young Persons)
  Government Training Centres (Apprenticeship Classes)
  Government Training Centres (Apprenticeship Classes)
  Dundee
  Dundee
  Employees (Contracts of Service)
  Employees (Contracts of Service)
  Distribution of Industry
  Distribution of Industry
  Swindon Tool Company
  Swindon Tool Company
  Shipbuilding and Ship Repairing
  Shipbuilding and Ship Repairing
  Disabled Persons (Ilkeston, Heanor and Alfreton)
  Disabled Persons (Ilkeston, Heanor and Alfreton)
  Dunfermline and Cowdenbeath
  Dunfermline and Cowdenbeath
  Young People, Dundee
  Young People, Dundee
AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD
  Farm Products (Production Costs)
  Farm Products (Production Costs)
  Wheats and Flour (Prices)
  Wheats and Flour (Prices)
  Bovine Tuberculosis (Slaughtered Animals)
  Bovine Tuberculosis (Slaughtered Animals)
  Hypomagnesaemia
  Hypomagnesaemia
  Wharves, River Hull
  Wharves, River Hull
  Bread
  Bread
  Yugoslavian Beef (Imports)
  Yugoslavian Beef (Imports)
PENSIONS AND NATIONAL INSURANCE
  Wives and Widows
  Wives and Widows
  Old-Age Pensions
  Old-Age Pensions
  Reciprocal Agreements
  Reciprocal Agreements
COAL
  Summer Prices
  Summer Prices
MINISTRY OF AVIATION
  London Airport Terminal Building (Advertisement)
  London Airport Terminal Building (Advertisement)
  Civil Airports, Scotland (Passengers and Freight)
  Civil Airports, Scotland (Passengers and Freight)
MINISTRY OF WORKS
  Hospital Building Programme
  Hospital Building Programme
  Palace of Westminster (Squash Rackets)
  Palace of Westminster (Squash Rackets)
ROYAL NAVY
  Royal Fleet Auxiliary Service
  Royal Fleet Auxiliary Service
FIJI
  Unemployment
  Unemployment
SINGAPORE
  Fire Damage, Tiong Bahru (Relief)
  Fire Damage, Tiong Bahru (Relief)
TRADE AND COMMERCE
  Cotton Industry Act, 1959
  Cotton Industry Act, 1959
TRANSPORT
  A.41 Road (Casualties)
  A.41 Road (Casualties)
  Lorries (Visibility)
  Lorries (Visibility)
  A.5 Road (Casualties)
  A.5 Road (Casualties)

Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Chancellor

COMMONWEALTH AND THE EUROPEAN ECONOMIC COMMUNITY
2.36 p.m.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government to what extent questions of Britain's accession to the European Economic Community were discussed at the Commonwealth Prime Ministers' Conference, and what continuing machinery has been established for consultation with the Commonwealth members on these questions.]
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL THE EARL OF LISTOWEL had also given Notice of the following Question:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether discussions are now proceeding or are contemplated with other Commonwealth countries concerning their association with the Common Market as a basis for deciding whether the Government enter negotiations with a view to joining it.
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL AND MINISTER FOR SCIENCE (VISCOUNT HAILSHAM): My Lords, I would wish, by permission of the House, to answer this Question and that of the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, together. Noble Lords will have seen from the communiqué issued after the meeting that the questions referred to were not among the specific problems upon which the Commonwealth Prime Ministers concentrated their attention. The opportunity was nevertheless taken of the presence of the Prime Ministers in London to discuss these questions with those who wished to do so. As regards machinery, your Lordships will be aware that there is fully developed machinery for economic consultation in the Commonwealth. The recent meeting of senior economic officials in London is an example. This is being fully used, as well as the normal channels of communication. The particular suggestion of association with the Common Market might present difficulties for some Commonwealth countries. Nevertheless, this question could of course come up in the course of consultation. I hope your Lordships will not press me on this point as my right honourable friend the Prime Minister will be making a statement tomorrow in another place.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLS-BOROUGH: My Lords, of course I have no wish to press the noble Viscount in the circumstances, but perhaps he will not mind my asking some exploratory questions. In the first place, may I ask him whether he is aware that any such Conference with regard to the Common

3
Market could not be confined to economic questions, for political questions of great importance are raised as well? What strikes me most of all is that you cannot avoid dealing at some time or other with whether it affects British sovereignty; and that affects every one of the Dominions and other countries in the Commonwealth. May I also ask him whether he has seen that the Premier of Canada has over the week-end specifically asked for a Conference of Commonwealth Prime Ministers before anything further is done about it? I should like to ask those two questions first.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, the channels which I referred to in my original Answer would, of course, be amply adequate to discuss political as well as economic questions, and I cannot conceive of any subject which raises questions as obviously political as this. I have, of course, seen in the Press the Canadian Prime Minister's reported utterance, but your Lordships will not expect me to comment upon it this afternoon.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLS-BOROUGH: My Lords, could I ask the noble Viscount, further, whether he is aware that there is a considerable feeling in large sections of the community that they have no real information yet upon which to go; that they are wondering what is taking place between individual Ministers visiting Commonwealth countries, or vice versa; and that the country is still in great dubiety about the whole thing? This is perhaps the most important and far-reaching general question of its kind that has been raised in this country in decades. May I therefore ask whether it is not first of all necessary to have a Conference of Premiers of the Commonwealth, at which they could, first, exchange views all the way round; and secondly, issue a notice to the public here, to include the economic figures and facts, and, at the same time, the expectations?
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, perhaps the noble Viscount will see that this is exactly the sort of question which hoped might await my right honourable friend's statement to-morrow.
LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE: My Lords, might I ask the Leader of the
4
House this question, without in any way wishing to press him, in view of the Prime Minister's forthcoming statement? Would he say whether this House will have an opportunity at an early date—for instance, on the Motion set down by the noble Lord, Lord Casey—to discuss in greater detail than can be done by question and answer the grave implications which must arise from any statement such as we can expect from the Prime Minister to-morrow?
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, I do not know that I must start by assuming that any statement by my right honourable friend will have grave implications. Obviously, any debate which this House desires to arrange can be arranged in the ordinary way. If, after my right honourable friend's statement, my noble friend wishes to discuss, either on the Motion he has referred to or in some other way, the implications of this question, he certainly can do so.
LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE: Must not any statement on this big issue be grave?
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: A great number of statements have been made on this issue already, some of which are the reverse of grave.
LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE: Not from the Prime Minister.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: My Lords, the noble and learned Viscount was good enough to answer my Question, too, and perhaps I may be allowed to put one or two supplementaries. In the first place, may I ask the noble and learned Viscount the rather obvious question: as he has been obliged to "stonewall" some of the questions put to him this afternoon, may we have the Prime Minister's statement in this House simultaneously with the making of that statement in another place to-morrow afternoon? That is my first question.
My next is: Does he not agree that an issue of this constitutional importance to the Commonwealth should involve machinery of consultation above and beyond what is usually employed? May I further ask the noble Viscount whether, if he does agree, he would not also agree that something should be done rather on the lines of what we

5
did when India stayed in the Commonwealth as a Republic? That involved, as the noble Viscount will remember (and I should like to ask him if he will tell us at any rate later on, if he cannot say now, whether he thinks it would be appropriate in this case) senior Ministers' visiting the Commonwealth countries for an exchange of views on the matter. Subsequent to that, there should at least be a special Prime Ministers' Conference, as in the case of India becoming a Republic in the Commonwealth, so that, before this 'matter receives a final decision, all the views of the Commonwealth Prime Ministers can be formulated and made known at the Conference.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, as regards the first part of the noble Earl's supplementary question, it certainly would seem to me to be reasonable that the statement should be repeated here. I think the House will recognise that it has been my unvarying practice to arrange, wherever possible, for any statements to be made in both Houses. I will convey what the noble Earl says to my right honourable friend, though I anticipate no difficulty about that. With regard to the second part of his supplementary, I might say that these are all questions which must be taken into consideration, along with other suggestions which are being made for consultation.
LORD HENDERSON: My Lords, may I ask the noble Viscount whether he is aware of the deep concern in public opinion, not only in this country but throughout the Commonwealth, and in view of the statement that the Prime Minister is going to make to-morrow, would he represent the great desire that there should be a definite and specific assurance by the Government that no definitive decision will be taken to enter the Common Market prior to the holding of a Commonwealth Prime Ministers' Conference?
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, of course I will convey what the noble Lord says to my right honourable friend, but I think he is already very well aware of the various movements in public opinion.
LORD REA: My Lords, as the noble Viscount does not wish your Lordships to press this matter I will not press him;
6
but may I ask him whether he is aware that this matter has been raised by means of questions from the Liberal Benches on many occasions for at least a year, and is now, rather flatteringly, taken up by Her Majesty's Opposition in exactly the same form? While he has not been able so far to give us a very definite reply, would he not agree that again this is one of those matters which "brooks no delay"?
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, I do not know about matters which "brook no delay", but I am perfectly sure the House would not wish me to do other than to say we are sure that all Parties are equally interested in this important question.

DISTURBANCE AT DARTMOOR
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: My Lords, I rise to ask Her Majesty's Government, by Private Notice, whether they have any statement to make on the recent occurrences at Dartmoor which resulted in the death of a prisoner?
THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (EARL BATHURST): My Lords, I hope that shortly after 3.30 p.m. I shall be able to make a statement in answer to the noble Lord's Question.
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: I am much obliged to the noble Earl.

CONSUMER PROTECTION BILL
Brought from the Commons; read 1a, and to be printed.
SMALL ESTATES (REPRESENTATION) BILL
Brought from the Commons; read 1a, and to be printed.
TEESSIDE RAILLESS TRACTION BOARD (ADDITIONAL ROUTE) PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL
Brought from the Commons; read 1a, and referred to the Examiners.
INDUSTRIAL AND PROVIDENT SOCIETIES BILL
Returned from the Commons, with the Amendments agreed to.

CRIMINAL JUSTICE BILL
2.48 p.m.
Amendments reported (according to Order).
Clause 1 [Conditions for and term of sentence of borstal training]:
BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGER BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGER moved, after subsection (2) to insert:
"() In dealing with a young person who has attained the age of fifteen years but has not attained the age of sixteen, a court of summary jurisdiction shall have power to order borstal training."
The noble Baroness said: My Lords, the sole object of this Amendment is to prevent young persons of 15 from being remanded for considerable periods in prison pending a possible borstal sentence. May I remind your Lordships that it is not a case of remedying an evil which exists, since such young persons are not in that position under the present law. This is a case of preventing younger people than can now be remanded in this connection from being in a position where this can happen to them. I am well aware that there are some objections to this Amendment, partly on the ground of judicial tidiness, but in considering these objections your Lordships must recall that they have to be weighed against the other evil of putting young people of 15 on remand in prison. The objections to this Amendment cannot be considered in a vacuum: it is a question of a balance between the evil that will be done by allowing young people to spend weeks on remand in prison, against the possible objections—which I hope to convince your Lordships are of a minor character—which may be raised against this Amendment.
The noble and learned Viscount who leads this House has been good enough to write to me setting out some of the objections which are in the mind of Her Majesty's Government in connection with this Amendment, and I should like to say a word or two about the arguments that he has used. The first is that it is desirable to consider the question of eligibility for borstal as a whole, and not to have different arrangements for borstal for different age groups or different classes. I appreciate the force of this argument, but I think that its force has been considerably diminished
8
by other changes which it is proposed to enact in this Bill, notably, now that borstal is no longer a highly specialised form of training, that a borstal sentence is to be a standard sentence for any custodial sentence of an intermediate period. Previously it was necessary to select for borstal training much more carefully, because only certain types of offenders might be suitable for that training. Now it is a matter of administrative decision, after an intermediate custodial sentence has been passed, whether borstal training or imprisonment or some other form of detention is the most suitable.
Moreover, I would remind your Lordships that it is not unknown for people to arrive at the same destination in our penal system by different routes. People arrive in prison as a result of being tried and sentenced by the magistrates. They arrive in prison as a result of being tried and sentenced in one of the higher courts. They arrive in prison as a result of being tried by magistrates and sentenced, under Section 29 of the Magistrates' Courts Act, by quarter sessions. And they arrive also at different destinations, sometimes when an adult and juvenile are tried together, the adult being sentenced in the magistrates court and the juvenile referred to a juvenile court for sentence. In this last case, very considerable anomalies may arise as between the sentences imposed by the two courts to two offenders convicted of the same offence. Admittedly, none of these is exactly parallel to the case we are considering, but I think they are sufficiently close to suggest that the proposal that boys and girls of 15 might be sent direct to borstal from magistrates courts is not an entirely revolutionary departure in our penal structure.
The second objection that is raised to this Amendment is that, in the case of the very young offender, it is particularly important that the most careful consideration should be given to the sentence that is imposed upon him; that it would be a mistake to allow the offender of 16 and upwards to go to quarter sessions to be sentenced while the younger offender is dealt with by the magistrates, and this would be thought to be a case of giving less attention to the needs of the boy of 15 than to those of the boy of 16 and upwards. This is an admirable

9
theoretical argument, but I do not think that it is an argument which would carry a moment's conviction to those who are familiar with the realities.
Quarter sessions differ from a magistrates' court—and here we are thinking of juvenile courts—in that it is only exceptionally that quarter sessions have to deal with juveniles. I know very well, from hearing appeals at sessions from juveniles, that sessions do not have the experience and understanding of juveniles in the ordinary case, which must inevitably come to magistrates at juvenile courts who are dealing with juveniles all the time and who may have a good many years' experience. Without seeking in any way to detract from the great and careful consideration which quarter sessions give to these cases, I would submit that quarter sessions are far less well fitted than the magistrates' courts to judge what is best for a juvenile.
I admit that there will be some anomalies if this Amendment is carried but that is not a unique feature in our penal and judicial system. It is a question, as I said at the beginning, of the size of these anomalies and of the weight to be given to them, as compared with terrible evil of putting boys and girls of 15 on remand in prison when that is not at the moment legal. I would also remind your Lordships that many of these anomalies can be avoided if the power to remit an offender to sessions still remains. I see no reason why this Amendment should override Section 28 of the Magistrates' Court Act and why it should not be left for the juvenile court magistrates to decide in individual cases whether they will take the responsibility of sending a boy or girl of 15 direct to borstal, or whether, not withstanding the horrors of a possibly long remand, they will send him or her to sessions to be sentenced.
I am sure that the Government must have been thinking of the case in which there are perhaps two youngsters concerned together, one perhaps of 15 and one of 16. The Government may be concerned that in such a case, under this Amendment, the 16-year-old might be sent to sessions for sentencing and the 15-year-old could be sent direct to borstal. This Amendment, however, is purely permissive, and if the magistrates felt that that created too great an
10
anomaly, no doubt they would send both offenders to sessions for sentence. But at least the Amendment would make it possible, in the case where a child of 15 is found guilty alone and not concerned with an older person, for him or her to be sent direct to borstal for training straight away. And it is for the immense importance of saving these young people from a period in prison that I would beg your Lordships to support this Amendment.
If only the noble and learned Viscount who leads the House would come and spend an afternoon with me in Wormwood Scrubs, or even a longer period—though I think that his eligibility would be more easily accepted than mine for that particular institution—I suggest, in all seriousness, that he would come to a rather different decision in balancing the possible minor anomalies that this Amendment may cause against the tragic circumstance of putting into prison, even on remand conditions, young people of 15 who at present cannot get there in any legal way. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 7, at end insert the said subsection.—(Baroness Wootton of Abinger.)
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, I think that it is important to remember exactly how this proposal arises. The noble Lady has said that the sole object of the Amendment is to prevent a young person who has attained the age of 15 but has not yet attained the age of 16 from being committed to prison during the time after he has been dealt with by the magistrate's court and before the court at quarter sessions has decided whether or not to send him to borstal. As an alternative to that, the noble Lady proposes that magistrates' courts should have power to send the young person to borstal.
The noble Lady knows that this question was canvassed on an Amendment moved by her on Committee stage. The difference was that her Amendment then related to young persons between the ages of 15 and 17 and her present Amendment is limited to offenders between 15 and 16. At the conclusion of the debate on Committee, I told her that I would consult the Home Secretary on the issue of whether this narrower group of offenders should be dealt with in this way and would let her have a reply; and,

11
indeed, as the noble Lady has told the House, I did so. But I think that in viewing the narrower question one must remember the arguments which I felt it necessary to deploy in Committee against giving to a court of summary jurisdiction the power to commit to borstal, which is what this Amendment does.
A court of summary jurisdiction has never been given the power to commit to borstal, any more than it has been given the power in relation to older offenders, to sentence people to prison for two years. Borstal is, after all, an institution which can limit in detention the liberty of the subject for up to two years. It is true that a court of summary jurisdiction can order a child to an approved school; but there, as I pointed out in Committee, the educational element is considered to be paramount, and in borstal, although the educational element is present, the punitive element is a very serious element in what is done. It would be a serious departure indeed, I should have thought, to give to magistrates' courts the power to send away to a borstal institution a young person between 15 and 16, a power which is not accorded to magistrates' courts in relation to the older offender.
There are two ways of looking at these things, but I am bound to tell the noble Lady that the way I look at it is this: that it is more serious to send away a child of 15 to 16 to borstal for two years than to send a young man of 17 to 21 to borstal for two years. To say that the magistrates' courts should have the power to do it to the younger one and not to the older one is, at any rate from the point of view of some of us, to invert the order of importance.
Perhaps I may remind the House of the arguments which were finally used by the Advisory Committee on the Treatment of Young Offenders, against the proposal to give magistrates' courts power to commit to borstal. They say, in paragraph 64 of their Report:
"It would not be appropriate for magistrates' courts to have power to deprive persons of their liberty for a period that may be as long as two years."
And secondly they say:
"The higher courts are subject to direct appeal to [the Court of Criminal Appeal. Magistrates' courts, however, are subject to appeal only to quarter sessions …"
12
The effect of what the noble Lady is proposing is, in relation to this particularly sensitive type of case where it is proposed to send a child of 15 to 16 to borstal for up to two years, to take away the child's right of appeal to the Court of Criminal Appeal. We do not think, nor did the Advisory Committee, that this is a good thing to do. What happens in relation to young persons—and, indeed, will happen to all young persons concerned if this Amendment is not carried—is this. Before a young person can be sent to borstal, the court of summary jurisdiction after conviction, has first of all to come to the conclusion that borstal is the only or the best thing; then that opinion has to be checked a second time by quarter sessions before the order is effective. Then, after that, the young person can appeal, or his parents can appeal on his behalf, to the Court of Criminal Appeal. That is three stages. What will happen if this Amendment is passed is that in respect of precisely the young people who are, in a sense, the most sensitive, those of 15 to 16, instead of having three stages, the magistrates will send to borstal, and, while there will be an appeal to quarter sessions, no appeal will lie to the Court of Criminal Appeal.
We have thought about this question as carefully as we can and have decided that, on the whole, it is not a particularly good thing to do. We think that it would give the impression—false, but still dangerous, if it were given—that in deciding whether or not a sentence of borstal training was appropriate greater care was to be taken in the case of the older offender than in the case of the younger. I say that it would be quite false; but, in a sense, it would not be, because there would be these two checks on the older offender and only one on the younger offender.
The fundamental reason for the present law is that a borstal sentence is regarded as a more serious matter than, for example, committal to an approved school, and offenders dealt with summarily should not be so committed unless both magistrates' court and quarter sessions are satisfied that it is necessary. It is generally accepted that the number of cases in which the courts will find it necessary to commit an offender of 15 to borstal may be comparatively small—

13
I should think they would be—but they will be cases in which the decision as to the proper form of treatment is likely to be a particularly difficult one. The Amendment would have the strange result that the only types of case in which such a sentence could be decided upon without the benefit of the second opinion of quarter sessions would be precisely these cases of especial difficulty.
Of course it is an evil that a young person, and particularly a young person of 15 to 16, should be remanded to prison. I think the noble Lady could have said (maybe she assumed that we knew already;, and perhaps we do, but I think it is relevant to remind ourselves) that it is not the policy of Section 28 of the Magistrates' Courts Act, under which these young people will be committed in custody to quarter sessions, that they should be committed in custody to prison. The policy of that Act (and by curious coincidence it is printed on page 8 of the Marshalled List of Amendments) is that wherever a remand centre is available, that is where they should go; and we certainly hope that a remand centre, which is undoubtedly the better place to send them, will be available eventually in every case. It is only failing that, simply for want of a better place, that prison is still possible; and I hope that that will not go on for very long. It seems to me, with respect to the noble Lady, that that is the policy of the Act; that is to say, that the proper place to remand these people to in custody is a remand centre, and not a prison, and that to provide by an Amendment that a magistrates' court should have the power of inflicting the sentence in the first place is really to prescribe a remedy which is worse than the disease.
I cannot help thinking that the noble Lady was influenced by an argument which I should have thought really cuts the other way. She thinks—at least, I think she does, because I understood her to say it in relation to a particular objection which she found in my letter—that the magistrates' court is so experienced in dealing with juveniles that it is more suitable to send these offenders to borstal than are quarter sessions. We do not think that. We think, with all respect to the magistrates' courts, that quarter sessions is the proper place. I do not think it would be right, solely
14
because (to use the noble Lady's own language) there are not remand centres in every case now, and there may be cases where these young people are remanded in custody to prison, to give to a court which we do not think the most suitable court the right to send to borstal, which will limit the right of the subject for freedom to up to two years without resort to the Court of Criminal Appeal, simply as a matter of substantive jurisdiction.
3.10 p.m.
LORD SILKIN: My Lords, the whole of this argument could have been avoided if the Government had seen fit to postpone the operation of the provision giving powers to send children of 15 to borstal before they are ready to deal with them. The noble and learned Viscount said that the effect of this will be that in some cases children will be sent to prison. But is it not common ground that for some years, at any rate—for an indeterminate number of years—all children of 15 will be sent to prison, because there are no remand centres or homes to which they can go? So we are inflicting an agreed evil—because the Bill itself contemplates that it is wrong to send young persons to prison—in order to make this doubtful change.
I have assumed, and my noble friends have assumed, for the purpose of this argument, that it is desirable to send young people of 15 to borstal. But that itself is controversial. There are a great many people who think that it is too young an age at which to send children to borstal. If you couple that doubt—and there is a doubt—with the fact that for some years to come they will have to go to prison because there is no other means of dealing with them in the intervening period, then I think the Government would have been far better advised to have postponed the operation of this provision until they were ready to deal with offenders between the ages of 15 and 16 by way of remand.
Dealing with the merits of this question, the noble and learned Viscount has come back to the point that we have never given power to magistrates to commit to borstal; that it is depriving children of their liberty for a period of two years, and that we should not entrust that to the magistrates. I

15
thought the noble and learned Viscount had put up a fair and a reasoned case, and I am not pretending for a moment that there is not a good deal to be said on his side. But I think he rather brushed on one side and did less than justice to the point that sending people to an approved school is equally depriving them of their liberty. It may be that the emphasis of the approved school is education and, as he says, the emphasis of borstal is punitive. I hope that is not so. I hope the emphasis of borstal will be educational as well. After all, if we are going to send children of fifteen to borstal, surely it is right that the emphasis should be educational rather than punitive. It cannot be that at that age you are going to ignore, or virtually ignore, the claims of education, and make it largely punitive.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: I never said that at all.
LORD SILKIN: I know the noble and learned Viscount did not put it as high as that, but I am putting it as high as that. I am saying that if sending a child to borstal is something more serious than sending him to an approved school, you are, in fact, assuming that the emphasis is on punishment, and I think that is wrong. I think the general trend of events is that borstal will be educational for the purpose of redeeming children, rather than have the punitive aspect. If I am right in that, and if it is merely a matter of emphasis, putting it at its highest, then in either case you are depriving a child of freedom for a period of years.
I can see no difference in principle, therefore, between giving a magistrate power to send a child to an approved school and giving him the power to send the child to borstal. In many cases there will be a doubt in the magistrate's mind as to which is the better course. My noble friend Lady Wootton of Abinger put emphasis on the fact that this was permissive. It was not intended that the magistrates should in all cases take it upon themselves to send children to borstal, but where they felt that it was a particularly difficult case—and the noble and learned Viscount referred to difficult cases—I presume that it would be suggested to them that the right course would be to refer it to the
16
sessions. It would only be in what they regarded as straightforward cases that they would take this power.
The noble and learned Viscount stressed the fact that if the magistrates were to be given this power it would be better that they should be given it in the case of older children than of younger ones. I will not pretend that there is no force in that—I think he has a point there. On the other hand, it is in the case of the younger children that it is so undesirable that at the age of 15 they should be spending time, whether it be in a remand home or remand centre, waiting for the decision as to what is to happen to them. That, itself, is an undesirable thing. All of us recognise that punishment should follow the event which calls for punishment as quickly as possible. I think it is particularly serious that young children of 15 should hang around, certainly for weeks, possibly for months, until their fate has been decided upon. I am sure that it is desirable that the magistrates should be in a position to deal with young people of that kind quickly, rather than that they should hang around for long periods and in the meantime wait in prison.
The last point to which the noble and learned Viscount referred was the question of appeal. I do not know in how many cases this right of appeal to the Court of Criminal Appeal has been acted on. I should imagine, however, it would be very few. It would not, I should think, be an appeal against conviction; it would be an appeal against sentence. I do not know whether the noble and learned Viscount has any information on the subject. There would be few cases where this would arise. I cannot imagine that such an appeal could have much validity. A child having been found guilty of an offence, it is very much a matter of discretion as to what is the right course as to whether he should go to an approved school or to borstal, or whether he should be put on probation. But without derogating from the functions of the Court of Criminal Appeal, I cannot imagine that in many cases they would be prepared to set aside a decision of a court which had dealt with the case and exercised a reasonable discretion. So I, personally, would not put very high this point of being able to appeal

17
to the Court of Criminal Appeal. I think the noble and learned Viscount has a debating point on that, but I certainly would not put it any higher. I feel, therefore, taking all the factors into consideration, and agreeing that it is a case which may be argued either way, that on balance my noble friend has made out a case for this Amendment, and that on its merits it ought to be accepted.
3.20 p.m.
LORD CHORLEY: My Lords, I should just like to add a word in this debate. I find the noble Baroness's argument very persuasive, particularly the point which she made and which the noble and learned Viscount did not really answer in respect of the expertise of the juvenile court for dealing with these young offenders. I must say, as a chairman of a quarter sessions who frequently have the ordinary type of case under the old law sent forward for sentencing, that I have always been a little doubtful as to whether it was not a great waste of time and expense, without achieving very much in return, to have these cases sent forward. I should have thought the ordinary bench was really just as well qualified as quarter sessions to come to a conclusion whether borstal was reasonable treatment in this sort of case.
While I agree that the argument is fairly evenly balanced, I should have thought in the case of the young offender, where the juvenile court is so particularly well qualified and has such a lot of experience in dealing with the young offender, the case was very much stronger. When the noble Lord says we have come to a conclusion that it is proper it should be dealt with at quarter sessions, I say, with respect, that that is not really an argument unless some sort of reason is given why the juvenile court is not the proper court to handle the matter.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: Before you can send anyone to borstal now you have to get both the recommendation of the juvenile court and of quarter sessions, because they have to be sent for borstal treatment to quarter sessions.
LORD CHORLEY: My Lords, it is obvious that the court is not going to send the case forward with a recom-
18
mendation for borstal unless it has come to the conclusion that borstal is the proper treatment, but it seems to me that the experience and ability is in the lower court, and in my experience quarter sessions very seldom disagrees—I cannot remember a case where they have disagreed with them. The noble and learned Viscount has pointed out that the Court of Criminal Appeal is in the background and there is a further check there, but I thought that the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, answered that point very effectively. The further you get from the actual trial court the less contact there is with the offender, and although it might conceivably here and there be valuable to have the Court of Criminal Appeal standing in the background as a possible check, I should have thought it was a very unrealistic attitude to attach much importance to it. It seems to me that the court—
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, I do not want to keep on interrupting, but the figures which I gave in Committee were that 20 per cent. to 30 per cent. get different treatment from quarter sessions, having been committed to borstal.
LORD CHORLEY: That certainly is not my experience. I should have thought that that was a very exceptional type of case. But I was in fact dealing with the question whether the point about the Criminal Court of Appeal had very much validity, and I should have thought that a great deal of weight should not be attached to it. The central point is that it is the court which handles the offender, hears the probation officer and hears the parents, and is much better qualified than anybody else. The further away you get from the offender, the more difficult it is to handle the problem effectively. For those reasons, I should have thought there was a great deal of reason for accepting this Amendment.
LORD ASHTON OF HYDE: My Lords, I should just like to say these few words. Noble Lords and Ladies opposite seem to have an idea that all juvenile courts have enormous experience of juvenile cases. I come from a good old juvenile court in the backwoods. I think I have been on it for sixteen years, and not once have we had to recommend anybody for borstal treatment. We have no experience at all of people of this sort,

19
and I think it would be the greatest mistake to give courts like ours the power to commit people to borstal. I do not think we have anything like the experience the courts of quarter session have for dealing with these people. After all, sending a case to borstal is a much more serious thing than sending someone to a detention centre, both in kind and time. I do not think that rural magistrates' courts should have the power to commit anybody to borstal.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I do not know whether the noble Lady wishes to withdraw the Amendment. The noble Lady is entitled to reply on Report stage if she so desires.
BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGER: My Lords, the noble and learned Viscount made reference again to the recommendations of the Advisory Council, and on this I do not propose to say anything because the Advisory Council's recommendations refer to the proposal that magistrates should have power to commit to borstal direct at the present age and not at the age of 15. The noble and learned Viscount also reminded us that a proportion of something to the order of 20 to 30 per cent. of those who are recommended for borstal to sessions do not get there, because sessions does not confirm this sentence. I wish that the noble and learned Viscount could break down those figures by ages, because I think he will find that this division of opinion is very much more common in regard to the older ages than the younger age groups; and if he brought the age down to 15 I should be very much surprised if he did not find that sessions follow the example set by my noble friend Lord Chorley, when he
says that in his sessions, in every case he can think of, the magistrates' recommendation was accepted.
The noble and learned Viscount also said that it is not the policy of the Magistrates' Courts Act that young people should be detained in prison pending sentence to borstal. It must be very cold comfort if you find yourself in prison under an Act of Parliament, to be told that it is not the policy of that Act to send you there; and I am surprised the noble Viscount makes use of this argument.
This Bill is in some ways a generous and progressive Bill and I should like to take this opportunity of congratulating Her Majesty's Government upon it. In particular, it is generous and progressive because it raises from the age of 15 to the age of 17 the minimum age at which a young person can be given a sentence of imprisonment. But what the Bill gives with one hand it now proposed to take away with the other, because it proposes to put down the age at which young people will be remanded in prison pending sentence to borstal. We are all deeply concerned with the rise in the figures of juvenile crime, but I beg your Lordships to consider whether there is any more effective way of increasing juvenile crime than giving children of 15 first-hand acquaintance of prison conditions. I myself believe that that is one of the best steps that Her Majesty's Government could take to increase the rate of juvenile delinquency in the younger ages.
On Question, Whether the said Amendment shall be agreed to?
The Lordships divided: Contents, 31; Not-Contents, 43.

CONTENTS

Alexander of Hillsborough, V.

Listowel, E.

Sinha, L.

Amwell, L.

Longford, E.

Stonham, L. [Teller.]

Chorley, L.

Lucan, E. [Teller.]

Strang, L.

Colwyn, L.

Meston, L.

Summerskill, B.

Cork and Orrery, E.

Morrison of Lambeth, L.

Terrington, L.

Crook, L.

Ogmore, L.

Uvedale of North End, L.

Douglas of Barloch, L.

Pethick-Lawrence, L.

Walston, L.

Henderson, L.

Ravensdale of Kedleston, B.

Williams, L.

Iddesleigh, E.

Rea, L.

Wise, L.

Latham, L.

Silkin, L.

Wootton of Abinger, B.

Lindgren, L.

NOT-CONTENTS

Ailwyn, L.

Ashton of Hyde, L.

Baden-Powell, L.

Amherst of Hackney, L.

Atholl, D.

Balfour of Inchrye, L.

Ampthill, L.

Auckland, L.

Bathurst, E.

Bethell, L.

Elliot of Harwood, B.

Jessel, L.

Birdwood, L.

Falmouth, V.

Kilmuir, V. (L. Chancellor.)

Bossom, L.

Fortescue, E.

Lansdowne, M.

Bridport, V.

Goddard, L.

MacAndrew, L.

Buckinghamshire, E.

Goschen, V.

Margesson, V.

Carrington, L.

Hailsham, V. (L. President.)

Merrivale, L.

Clwyd, L.

Hampton, L.

Milverton, L.

Cottesloe, L.

Harris, L.

Newall, L.

Craigmyle, L.

Hastings, L.

Newton, L. [Teller.]

Derwent, L.

Hawke, L.

St. Oswald, L. [Teller.]

Devonshire, D.

Jellicoe, E.

Somers, L.

Donoughmore, E.

Resolved in the negative, and Amendment disagreed to accordingly.

DISTURBANCE AT DARTMOOR
3.38 p.m.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, perhaps it would be convenient to the House if my noble friend were now to repeat a statement made in another place it is also a reply to the Private Notice Question here by the noble Earl, Lord Longford.
EARL BATHURST: My Lords, a few moments ago, my right honourable friend the Home Secretary made this statement:
"During the showing of the film The Blue Lamp at Dartmoor Prison on Sunday afternoon a fight broke out between some prisoners, as a result of which one prisoner died, three other prisoners have sustained injuries, and two prison officers were also injured, though not seriously.
"This was an isolated incident and the prison was and remains generally quiet. As the incident may result in criminal proceedings it would be improper for me to comment further at this stage."
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: My Lords, I am sure we are all very much obliged to the noble Earl. May I take it that he and his colleagues are very worried about the position of the prisons at the present time, and would he agree that perhaps the gravest aspect is the shortage of staff in relation to the numbers of prisoners?
EARL BATHURST: My Lords, I certainly note what the noble Earl says, but, so far as this particular case is concerned, Dartmoor Prison has a full staff.
LORD SILKIN: My Lords, I take it that there will be a full inquiry into
22
how it came about that this extraordinary violence could have happened when, presumably, there was a full staff and they were all on duty.
EARL BATHURST: My Lords, I am quite certain that there will be a Governor's report. As to whether there will be a formal inquiry, I will certainly let the noble Lord know later.

CRIMINAL JUSTICE BILL
3.48 p.m.
Report stage resumed.
LORD STONHAM LORD STONHAM moved, in subsection (3) of Clause 1, after "court" to insert:
"shall be required to obtain and consider a report as to his home surroundings, school and work record, health and character and".
The noble Lord said: My Lords, this Amendment seeks to insert words which will ensure that before the court sentences an offender to borstal they shall be required to obtain a considered report as to his home surroundings, school and work record, health and character. As the clause stands, without this Amendment, there are only two obligations placed on the court before they sentence an offender to borstal. The first is, that if he is under 17 the court must be convinced that no other method is appropriate (I assume that that implies that all other methods are inappropriate), and secondly they must consider the report on the offender made by the Prison Commissioners. They are the only two requirements.
In Committee it was pointed out that although in a majority of cases adequate information is available, there is a minority of cases—and that means a substantial number—where almost the only information which is available to the court is that which relates to the offence and not to the offender. It is to protect this minority that, in our view, legislation is necessary. During the

23
Committee stage I pointed out that the Prison Commissioners' reports were frequently superficial and practically valueless; that only 6 out of 100 prison medical officers have psychiatric qualifications; that if a boy was on bail before his trial the prison officer who was reporting on him would, in all probability, never have have seen the boy; that the requirements which we ask should be placed on the higher courts had, in fact, been an obligation on the children's courts for 28 years, and that therefore in our view there could be no valid objection to this Amendment. Finally, I quoted the overwhelming decisions in favour of comprehensive pre-sentence reports by both the Ingleby and Streatfeild Committees.
The case for this Amendment rests on the necessity to ensure that the punishment not only fits the crime but also fits the delinquent. In other words, the treatment decided upon by the court shall be one which, having regard to the offender's health, including his mental health, his character, his home surroundings and his record at school and at work, gives the best hope of turning him into a decent citizen. For this a court must surely have reports which include the information we prescribe in the Amendment. Without it, many sentences will be a cruel mockery, calculated not to cure the delinquent but to condemn him to a life of crime.
In his reply the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor, said that the Government accepted the recommendations of the Ingleby and Streatfeild Committees, and that their reluctance to incorporate them in this Bill arose not, as I had supposed, because there are not sufficient probation officers or social workers to compile the necessary reports, but because the implementation of the Ingleby and Streatfeild Committees' recommendations will be part of much wider legislative provision which the Government intend to make. He objected to my suggestion that this might take years, and indicated that it was the intention to take early action. But my own view, having regard to the queue of undigested, postponed and abandoned Bills, is that we shall be extremely lucky to get such an Act on the Statute Book during the present Parliament, and there is therefore no
24
apparent reason of substance why it cannot be done now in this Bill.
Certainly the two particular points of objection raised by the Lord Chancellor cannot, in my view, be accepted as reasons for not agreeing to at least a modified form of my Amendment. One of his objections was that an offender might object to inquiries being made from his employers before his guilt was established. Such an objection is obviously valid and allowable, and in such a case the probation officer would report accordingly to the court. The second of the Lord Chancellor's objections was that it would impose too rigid and inflexible a procedure on the courts and their officers in a field where the exercise of discretion is highly desirable. But acceptance of this Amendment does not impose an inflexible procedure; it merely lays down the main heads of information which the court shall require before they come to the conclusion that they must sentence an offender to borstal.
If the Lord Chancellor refuses to accept this Amendment then, in my submission, he must say which of these heads of information are not essential. Is it the boy's health, or his home surroundings, that we should not, or need not, know of? Surely we must know whether a boy has parents, if they are living together or if their influence is for good or bad? Is it not important to know what a boy's school-master or his employer thinks of him? They may have had an opportunity of observing him for years under ordinary conditions and of forming an opinion about his character and possibilities. I think that their opinion is likely to be important.
In accordance with the promise which he gave in Committee, the noble and learned Viscount has been good enough to write to me. But I confess that my last state is worse than my first, because I found his letter most disturbing. He says that:
"the nature and extent of the information required by the court will vary from case to case, and it is preferable for the count to decide on the information required and how it should be obtained."
That is tantamount to saying that the present unsatisfactory position is to remain unaltered. The material on which decisions are based will therefore vary

25
not only from court to court, but from case to case, and even from magistrate to magistrate. We are not attempting to say what decision the court should make, but we are trying to indicate the kind of information they ought to have before they come to a decision. Surely that is unanswerable. The noble and learned Viscount also tells me that:
"our common objective can and should be achieved without legislation."
But if the change is to be only administrative, what becomes of the promise given in Committee that the Ingleby and Streatfeild recommendations were to form part of much wider Government proposals for changes in the courts? If that does not mean legislation, then what does it mean?
In this matter I am forced to the reluctant conclusion that what we have been given so far is not answers which carry the implication of constructive action, but reasons for inaction. I hope your Lordships will agree with me that it is intolerable to send young persons away from home without finding out about their background. I think that we must agree to put an end to these "misfit" sentences, and to achieve this the courts must be supplied with the information they need. I think that in this Bill, now, without waiting some years, we can, by accepting this Amendment, ensure that the right kind of information may be supplied. I hope that your Lordships will say that it should be. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 9, after ("court") insert the said words.—(Lord Stonham.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT KILMUIR): My Lords, I am sorry that my attempt to deal with this matter by correspondence has not been as helpful as it was intended to be. But I am anxious that the noble Lord, Lord Stonham, should understand that we believe that the recommendations which are relevant to this matter can largely be implemented by administration. I should like to develop that point. The House may remember that on the Committee stage I had three grounds of objection: first, that any mandatory requirement of this kind would unnecessarily letter the courts; secondly, that it would create a pressure for pre-trial inquiries which the accused might not de-
26
sire and to which he would be reluctant to consent; and, thirdly, that the terms of the particular Amendment imposed on the courts too specific a requirement as to the nature of the reports.
I want to go back to what I said, and to the point to which the noble Lord has referred: that the Government have accepted the recommendations of the Streatfeild Committee, which means that they fully endorse the view that every sentence should be based on comprehensive information about the individual offender. They are not convinced that it is necessary to give effect to this by way of a statutory provision binding the courts to adhere to a prescribed procedure. There is nothing in the Streatfeild Committee's report to suggest that they contemplated that their recommendations in this respect should be implemented by a rigid statutory mandate to the courts. The many recommendations of the Committee in regard to reports to the courts visualise a flexibility of procedure which can be achieved only by administrative arrangements. The nature and extent of the information which it is necessary that the courts should have will vary from case to case, and it is preferable that the courts should have freedom to decide in each case what information is required and how best it may be obtained.
Nevertheless, I want to assure the noble Lord that the Government are already preparing to take all necessary action with a view to bringing to the notice of those concerned the recommendations in Part B of the Streatfeild Committee's Report, and to facilitating their implementation. The noble Baroness, Lady Wootton of Abinger, needs no reminding that Part B is the relevant Part here; Part A deals with the actual arrangements for the courts. Practical arrangements will have to be made to enable the wide range of information which the Streatfeild Committee thought desirable to be made available to the courts in all the cases where the Committee thought it appropriate. I hope that the noble Lord will appreciate that; and I hope that I, in turn, have understood the view of the Committee correctly. But it seems to me that they themselves recognise that the part to be played in these arrangements by the police and the probation service

27
and prison governors will need to be carefully co-ordinated.
As soon as it is possible to make satisfactory arrangements, my right honourable friend the Home Secretary will issue the necessary instructions to those whose task it will be to prepare reports for the courts, and the courts will be given full information about the service they may expect, together with encouragement, if indeed that is necessary, to take full advantage of it. The Government fully appreciate the desirability and importance of bringing these new arrangements into force at the earliest possible opportunity, and I can assure the noble Lord that there will be no avoidable delay.
So, my Lords, one may conclude that the objective which we both desire, of a procedure for providing the superior courts with adequate information of offenders, should be fully achieved in a reasonably short time. There is good reason to believe that, with the improved administrative machinery and the clear guidance given by the Streatfeild Committee, the superior courts will be fully equipped to decide what information is necessary to assist them in the consideration of the individual case and to obtain it. I think that this is really the synthesis between the two views on which the noble Lord was troubled: the Government will, by administrative action and by the course I have outlined, indicate the methods by which the wide range of information which the Streatfeild Committee thought desirable will be available, but it will be for the court in each case to decide how much information they need in dealing with the individual case.
The Government are confident that this is a matter which can and should be left to the discretion of the courts, in the sense I have stated, and that it would be a mistake to bind them by too rigid a statutory procedure which might not be appropriate in every case, for the reasons which I dealt with more elaborately on the Committee stage. I therefore ask the noble Lord to believe that we are just as anxious as he is that the information should be available and that we shall deal with the matter by administrative action. I do not think he will have anything to complain about or
28
regret in the information that is available to the courts.
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, I am most grateful to the noble and learned Viscount for his further reply. As I gather the sense of his remarks, it is the Government's view that the Streatfeild recommendations cover all the information, or the heads of information, that we ask for in the Amendment. The Government are satisfied that that information can be made available to the courts by administrative action, and that there is no need for legislation on the point. Finally, it is for the courts themselves to decide (and I agree) what information they require in respect of a particular offender. What we have been very anxious about is that information on these heads should be available if required, and that the courts ought to satisfy themselves on those points. If the Lord Chancellor assures us that the Government are taking early action in this matter, then I am quite satisfied, and I ask your Lordships for leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 4 [Detention of offenders aged 14 to 20]:
4.0 p.m.
LORD STONHAM LORD STONHAM moved, in subsection (4) after "training" to insert "or a previous term of detention in a detention centre". The noble Lord said: My Lords, the object of this Amendment is to prevent the award of a second sentence of detention. When we discussed this point in Committee the noble Earl, Lord Bathurst, promised, without, of course, giving any kind of assurance, that he would look at it again. I am therefore moving this Amendment now, in the hope that, on reflection, what I regarded as the noble Earl's somewhat contradictory arguments on Committee will have been found insufficient to sustain the Government's objections, and that they will now accept the Amendment.
It is common ground that the detention centres are designed to administer a short, sharp shock, and that the treatment succeeds with two boys out of three, provided they have had no previous institutional experience. It is also common ground that the results are very poor—at least, comparatively poor—

29
with boys who have had one dose and are sent back for more. If the first treatment does not succeed, then the second treatment is not much good. The Government recognise that it is useless with a certain type of boy, because the courts, other than in exceptional circumstances, are not allowed to send to detention centres boys who have already been sent to borstal or have received a prison sentence of not less than six months. So that if the short, sharp shock does not work, it is useless, and perhaps positively harmful to try it a second time.
Despite this, to me, quite unanswerable reasoning, the noble Earl, Lord Bathurst, seemed quite undeterred by the prospect of a second detention centre sentence, and even visualised the possibility of a third sentence. Leaving aside the fact that a third sentence would be manifestly useless, I would ask your Lordships to consider the practical implications. The Bill fixes a cumulative upper limit of nine months for the maximum, cumulative sentence which anyone can serve in a detention centre. In a later Amendment we confidently hope to persuade the Government to reduce that nine months to six months, but let us for the moment just consider the cumulative maximum of nine months. With boys over 17, the individual sentence will be anything from three to six months. Assuming, my Lords, that six months is awarded the first time, what earthly use would it be to send the boy back to a detention centre for another three months, which is the maximum which could then be awarded, when the first sentence of six months had obviously failed to have its effect? It must have failed to have its effect, for otherwise he would not be in trouble again.
Assuming, on the other hand, that three months has been the first sentence, and again it has failed to effect a cure, the court would be almost obliged to sentence for a period of six months, bringing it up to a total of nine months. I do not think that anyone in his senses would believe that if the first short, sharp shock of three months had failed, then three such three-month sentences would be likely to succeed. That is certainly the logic of the argument which the noble Earl put forward when he visualised the possibility, not merely of two but perhaps of three such sentences.
This Amendment is not an argument against detention centres: it is an argument against their misuse. We want detention centre places available for those boys who are likely to benefit, and who are described in the Prison Commissioners' Report for the year 1957 as
"boys with a more or less substantial criminality, not due to deep-rooted personal factors or seriously adverse home conditions, for whom detention is the first experience of any form of institutional treatment."
They are the boys who are most likely to benefit. They are the ones that we want to see sent to detention centres. We do not want the detention centre places cluttered up, as it were, by lads who have been there before; lads in whose cases it has not worked, has not had any effect, and who commit an offence again and get sent back; the kind of lads who do not appreciate the value of the short, sharp shock. I do think that that is quite sound reasoning, and I ask the Government themselves to show their belief in the value and effect of this treatment, in which I certainly believe, in certain circumstances and with the right boys, by accepting this Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 4, line 20, after ("training") insert ("or a previous term of detention in a detention centre").—(Lord Stonham.)
EARL BATHURST: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Stonham, said that I promised to look into what he said during the Committee stage, and I assure him that all his points have indeed been looked into. I must also ask him to remember what I said in my reply to him on Committee stage. I emphasised that it must be remembered that when the Bill is fully implemented the power of the courts to impose short sentences of imprisonment will no longer exist. Of that, of course, I know the noble Lord is fully aware. Detention will then be the only form of short custodial training that is available to the courts for such offenders. If the courts are discouraged from imposing a second sentence of detention, as the noble Lord would like to see by his Amendment, in cases where they think only a short term in custody is appropriate, then the offender will be pushed up an escalator of punishment into a longer, indeterminate sentence of borstal training. That would be the result if the noble Lord's Amendment were carried.

31
My Lords, there is no intention that the forms of punishment dealt with in this Bill should be awarded progressively. It is therefore essential to enable the courts to impose a second sentence of detention on a youth whose record or current offence does not justify a longer, indeterminate sentence. We believe that there is no difficulty expected in dealing with boys who have been in detention centres before. It may be necessary in certain cases to ensure that they do not go back to the same centre, or it may be that, in the light of experience, we shall have to reserve certain centres for certain types of second offenders. But, my Lords, detention centres already deal with youths who have had previous institutional experience. Out of an intake of 375 at one of these detention centres, only 66 were, in fact, first offenders. I will not weary your Lordships with the remaining statistics, but they were by no means all first offenders. Now the provisions in the Bill already fetter the discretion of the courts, and it is not reasonable or necessary, we feel, to impose a further limitation on their discretion to impose what is the least serious of the sentences of custodial training which will be available to them.
In paragraph 35 of their Report, the Advisory Council made it clear that they considered that trouble or disruption might be caused in detention centres by youths who had spent some time in institutions similar to borstals or young prisoners' centres. That is true. But youths who have spent a long period in institutional custody are less likely to respond to the shorter form of training at a detention centre—that, indeed, the noble Lord has specifically mentioned. He also mentioned the success rates. Of course, the success rates of detention centres are very much higher when dealing with first offenders. I am certain, however—and I am sure the noble Lady opposite will agree with me—that it is quite easy to deal with good criminals. It is the bad criminals—or, in the case we are talking about, the lads in detention centres, who have insisted on going wrong a second time—who are very much more difficult to deal with, and naturally the success rates with them are not so high. I think that extends into every branch of life where
32
a certain amount of discipline is required.
The Advisory Council recommended that, save in the exceptional circumstances now dealt with in Clause 4, such a youth—that is, the youth who has spent a long period in institutional custody—should not be sentenced to detention. The objections, though, to having in a detention centre a boy who has been in another detention centre are nothing like so strong. It is true that the Prison Commissioners will, on occasion, be able to give useful information about a boy's response to a previous sentence of detention, and where a court is in doubt whether to sentence a boy to detention or to borstal training, the Commissioners' report on the boy's likely response to the two forms of training will be very helpful to them. But there will be many cases in which it is clear at the outset that the longer sentence—the borstal sentence—will not be justified. I want to assure the noble Lord, as I am certain he knows, that if the court is in doubt, it has power to remand a particular case and can inquire into the record of the boy concerned. But we feel that that is not necessary in every one of these cases where a second case of detention is considered. Therefore, my Lords, I regret that we cannot accept the noble Lord's Amendment.
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, I am sorry the noble Earl cannot accept the Amendment. Also, it did not appear to me that he really replied to the points I made—for example, the one where a boy has already had six months in a detention centre. In that case, what is the earthly use of sending him back for three months if he committed another crime when he came out? It seems to me that the principal difference between us—I hope I am not doing the noble Earl an injustice—is that he, or the Government, places greater emphasis on the importance of punishment, whereas I feel that the greater emphasis should be placed on the importance of cure. That is why I feel that a second sentence of detention is a waste. I am not suggesting that the boy should be punished again—of course not. What I am suggesting is that if another form of detention is to be used, it should in most cases be borstal. I quite appreciate that if the short treatment has not worked,

33
then obviously a longer treatment has to be tried, with more teaching or education provided, from a longer-term point of view. I fully accept the implications of what the noble Earl has said.
The entire purpose of the Amendment, really, is to try to prevent not merely waste of places in a detention centre, but waste of opportunities for turning a delinquent into a decent citizen. They are the two important ways, and the second, of course, is the far more important of the two. It seems to me a sort of easy way out, when so many places are crowded, for a court to say: "All right, we will send him to a detention centre again if he still has a little of his nine months' possible maximum still not worked out". But if the boy goes there and is dealt with in that way, it does him no earthly good at all. This is a matter to which we shall have to come back, perhaps in a year or two's time when we have had a little more experience. I am sorry that the Government cannot accept the Amendment now, because I think it is the right view to take.
EARL BATHURST: My Lords, with your Lordships' permission I should like to answer the noble Lord with regard to the nine-months point he mentioned. I thought I had made it quite clear to the noble Lord that our reason for sending the lad back a second time is that he may not have committed a serious enough offence to make it necessary to send him to borstal. On the other hand, that offence may be perfectly serious enough, in the circumstances as they exist now, to send him to a short term of imprisonment, and much of my remarks is directed to the undesirability of sending young offenders to prison. We believe that is wrong. The Bill is built around that concept, and therefore it seems right that if a lad, having left one of these centres, slips off the rails (he may not slip off the rails for two years or more; the noble Lord knows well that there are the junior centres and the senior centres, and the lad may be committed to a junior centre, go on with his after-care, and so forth, for a year or two, and then slip off the rails) again, he will then have to go to a senior centre if he is over the age of 17. But he may not have committed a serious enough
34
crime to warrant a long term at borstal. That is the reason why we believe it should be possible for the courts to administer yet one more short sentence. If that is not successful, of course it will make for a very different situation. However, I was most anxious that the noble Lord did not feel I had not answered the particular point about the nine months.
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Earl, but what he has said has confirmed the view I formed: that, in the view of the Government, the punishment is the more important part, because the noble Earl said that the boy may have committed another crime of a more serious nature. My own view is that it would be much better if we administered our penal system all the time with the idea of awarding that punishment which will offer the best chance of redeeming the prisoner or the offender, not the punishment which will provide the certainty that he will suffer the most. There, I think, lies the essential difference between us, and that is why the noble Earl cannot accept this Amendment. Because I feel quite strongly about it, and because I do not wish to waste the time of your Lordships' House, I will not withdraw my Amendment, but I will not divide the House.
On Question, Amendment negatived.
4.18 p.m.
LORD STONHAM LORD STONHAM moved to add to the clause:
"() An order under this section shall not be made in respect of a female."
The noble Lord said: My Lords, this is an Amendment about which, I must tell your Lordships at once, we feel very strongly indeed, and we hope that we shall get a better answer from the Government than we had last time. We desire the Government to agree that there shall be no detention centre for girls. It is understandable that those of us who move Amendments in Committee, or on Report stage, are frequently far from satisfied with the replies that we get from the Government, although we can usually see some substance in the Government's arguments. However, I confess that never in my experience have Ministers been so completely at sea as were the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor and the noble Earl,

35
Lord Bathurst, when they attempted to uphold the Government's decision to provide a single detention centre for girls, one unhappy "Dothegirls Hall", in Staffordshire.
The noble Earl, Lord Bathurst, actually managed to convince himself that an Amendment which expressly states that there should be no detention centre for females was put down in the interests of sex equality. If he cares to turn to column 490 of the OFFICIAL REPORT he will see that that is a true assessment of his point of view. I assure him that it was not put down in the interests of sex equality. In my view, it was he and the Lord Chancellor who want a perverted kind of sex equality when they insist that it would be unfair to the boys if a girl who has committed a crime which warranted a short sentence of imprisonment is not sent to a detention centre. Our utter abhorrence of this idea does not spring from any mistaken sense of chivalry. We do not wish to absolve bad girls from punishment or treatment. Our objection arises from the fact that the very small number of girls who merit short sentences are usually abnormal and disturbed girls, for whom the "short, sharp shock", "knees-bend" treatment of a detention centre is useless, criminal and wrong. We say that the Government's proposal is stubbornly contrary to all expert opinion, including that of their own Advisory Committee.
I hope that the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor will bear with me while I examine some of the statements which he made on Committee, because I am sure that he does not want us to leave this important point until all aspects have been fully and carefully considered. The first point is that, in our view, short sentences are unsuitable for girls. The few who need help need a much longer period of treatment and, above all, different treatment. The noble and learned Viscount put, as the first of his reasons for justifying a detention centre for girls, that as short-term imprisonment for boys is being abolished in favour of treatment in centres away from adult persons, similar provision must be made for girls.
I think that the assumption that short-term detention for girls is suitable, wherever they may be held, is one that
36
the Government must prove, because those closely associated with the treatment of delinquent, wayward and abnormal girls are unanimous in saying that, when girls get into trouble, the underlying reasons are much more serious and the treatment much more difficult than in the case of boys. It is almost unknown for girls to indulge in the sort of mischievous naughtiness and showing off to their companions, which eventually qualify a boy for a term in a detention centre.
Dr. Grunhut, the only one who has carried out systematic studies of the effect of detention centres, has been quoted with approval by the Prison Commissioners, the Home Office and Government representatives. He has declared:
"The original proposition is confirmed that punitive detention appears suitable for boys with a more or less substantial criminality not due to deep-rooted personal factors or seriously adverse home conditions …"
There are exceeding few girls who come before the courts who, if they seem to deserve to be sent away from home, are so little disturbed as to fall into the category I have just mentioned. Furthermore, there is the difficulty of the very small number of girls in this category.
I know that the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor is aware of the smallness of the number, but I do not think he could have analysed this figure, at least before Committee stage, and I should like to do so now. The number of girls sent to prison for periods up to six months in the years 1957, 1958 and 1959, taken from the Reports of the Prison Commissioners, were as follows—in 1957, 98; in 1958, 156, and in 1959, 147. If we analyse the sentences during 1959, out of the total of 147, 16 girls received 7 days or less and 76 received between 7 days and one month—that is, a total of 92 out of the 147. We should not be sending those girls to a detention centre. What of the 55 who are left? Of those, 42 were sentenced to between one and three months' imprisonment and only 13–9 per cent. of the total—were sent to prison for between 3 and 6 months. Therefore, the first important point is that at any one time during the year, out of 147 girls, only 10 or 12 would be in prison in the whole country. That is the number for which it is proposed we should provide one detention

37
centre for girls right in the middle of the country.
As to their suitability, I would remind your Lordships that many of them are young prostitutes. The noble and learned Viscount was obviously unaware of this during Committee stage, because he said [OFFICIAL REPORT, Vol. 231 (No. 81). col. 496]:
"I cannot imagine a bench of magistrates using a female detention centre for prostitutes."
I will give figures for the same three years. In 1957, out of a grand total of 98 girls under 21 to be sent to prison, 21 were sent for offences connected with prostitution—that is, something over 21 per cent. In 1958, there were 74 prostitutes out of a total of 156 girls who went to prison. In 1959, there were 83 prostitutes out of 162—that is, over 50 per cent. And one must assume that they were all sent to prison for less than three months, because that is the maximum sentence in the Street Offences Act.
If the Government's prime aim in establishing a detention centre for girls is to use it for those who at present are being sent to prison, and if the noble and learned Viscount is sure that magistrates would not send prostitutes to the detention centre, then we are entitled to know, first of all, what alternative form of treatment the Government propose to provide for young prostitutes who are sent to prison, and, secondly, whether it would not further wipe out the necessity, even on economic grounds, for this one central detention centre for girls. I put forward the proposition that the total number would be between 10 and 12; and now, if we halve that, because half, or more than half, are prostitutes, we are talking about a detention centre for five or six girls culled from the whole of the country.
As the noble and learned Viscount knows, I am President of the Association for Moral and Social Hygiene, which was founded some 90 years ago by Josephine Butler, an Association which has had great experience throughout that time in dealing with prostitutes. I have in my hand a copy of a letter which the Association sent to the Home Secretary on June 9. I would assure the noble and learned Viscount that I did not write the letter or know that it was being written, but it is appropriate to this discussion and I should
38
like to quote it. It says, among other things:
"This Association is especially interested in the treatment of young prostitutes, and in this connection would draw your attention—
that is, the Home Secretary's attention—
"to the Report of the Committee on Children and Young Persons (the Ingleby Committee), paragraphs 98 to 102. In particular the Association endorses the statement: `that approved school training would not usually be a suitable form of treatment for young prostitutes' and `supervision by probation officer … seems the most promising possibility'. Later, it is stated: `Almost all adolescent girls sent to approved schools (whether as offenders or not) have a history of sexual immorality'."
Your Lordships may remember that on the Committee stage, the noble Lord, Lord Raglan, speaking from his experience, said much the same thing. The Association's letter continues:
"If approved schools be unsuitable for these young prostitutes, the Detention Centre would, in our view, be even more so. The prevalence of sexual immorality in many of the other girls brought before the courts, would also make them unsuitable for the 'short, sharp shock' type of treatment.
"The number of girls involved is very small compared with that of boys, and there is no reason to think that the existing measures of probation, approved school and borstal are inadequate to meet present needs.
"Moreover, the existence of a detention centre might encourage magistrates to send girls there who, in the view of the Association, would benefit from probation."
I feel that that is a view which should carry weight with the Government; and in view of the observations of the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor in Committee about prostitutes, I hope that this will compel the Government in relation to the figures, to look at this problem in a new light. With respect, I cannot believe that they have looked at it in this way before, otherwise their proposals would not have been made.
I would suggest that the best solution would be to provide two small units, more or less in association with, but kept completely separate from, the two new women's prisons which are planned by the Commission. One of the particular reasons for that suggestion is that there is at present a great shortage of experienced social workers in prisons, and it might be difficult to obtain the services of these people to visit an isolated

39
small detention centre for girls; but because some of the best psychiatric workers in prisons are already in posts at such places as Holloway, our only women's prison, which when these two new prisons are ready will be closed up, these experienced people would be in a position, without any travelling at all, to treat these girls and give them the kind of treatment they need.
I want to say a word or two about what I must with respect regard as the Government's tragic misconception of the régime of this girls' detention centre. The Lord Chancellor, in Committee, spoke of [OFFICIAL REPORT, Vol. 231 (No. 83), col. 495]:
"the first stage of inculcating the hard virtues"—
discipline, cleanliness, tidiness and obedience, which he said
"may well be a good foundation on which to develop the soft"
remedial and constructive training. The noble Earl, Lord Bathurst, said [col. 491] that the detention centre would
"embody all that is best and most successful from the borstal establishment and, at the same time, will instil the will power for the girl to improve herself and discipline herself ready to go to an outside life."
Just as, earlier on, my noble friend Lady Wootton of Abinger invited the noble and learned Viscount the Leader of the House to go to Wormwood Scrubs, I would invite the noble Earl, Lord Bathurst, to come and meet some of these girls, as I have, because I am sure he would no longer believe that what I have already described as the "knees-bend treatment" would inspire in them the will power to improve themselves.
The fundamental assumption is wrong. The assumption of the Government is that you can in a few weeks have a "first stage" of instilling obedience to discipline, and then into the remaining few weeks cram what would in effect have to be a whole borstal training. The Government must recognise that with difficult girls you cannot achieve fundamental retraining within a few weeks; and such retraining is far more likely to be achieved in borstal or, if this is not suitable and removal from home is desirable, in a probation hostel. Then, again, the noble Earl, Lord Bathurst, suggested that the establish-
40
ment in Staffordshire would be all right, because many of these girls have no parents or perhaps just foster parents. It merely makes the case worse if you are going to hide such young people away in that way.
The last point I want to make, to which I would particularly draw the attention of the Lord Chancellor, is the question of the figures of girls of under 21 convicted for the first time and sent to prison. In 1957 there were 41 first offenders out of a total of 102 sent to prison; in the next year there were 94 out of 165; in 1959 there were 62 out of 162—and the numbers of those first offences bears a close relationship with the numbers of girls under 21 who were sent to prison for non-payment of fine. So I think it is a reasonable assumption that most of the first offenders were fine defaulters. It seems to me that if we give magistrates the "Go ahead" with a girls' detention centre they will soon fill it with first offender fine defaulters, which I think would be a deplorable and disastrous circumstance.
I believe that the figures I have quoted establish conclusively that the number of girls who have to be detained at any one time is about twelve; that half of that number, at least, or more, are young prostitutes, for whom separate facilities, as I think we all agree, must be provided; and that on economic grounds it is fantastic to suggest running a girls' detention centre. On curative grounds, or desire for cure, I would say that it is criminal to have such a detention centre, because these girls are disturbed and maladjusted and the kind of treatment visualised in the ordinary detention centre would from the start be absolutely certain to fail. I ask the Government, even if at this stage they cannot accept this Amendment, to say that these figures, which I am sure cannot possibly have been considered, will be looked into thoroughly, in the hope that on Third Reading they will be able to accept our point of view and give us an assurance that this proposed blot upon our penal system, a girls' detention centre, will be dropped. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 4, line 32, at end insert the said subsection.—(Lord Stonham.)
4.38 p.m.
BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGER: My Lords, I much regret that the noble Baroness, Lady Summerskill, is not in her place at the moment, for I think it will be agreed that she and I have not been diffident in trying to get equal civil rights for both sexes; and I think it will also be agreed that our efforts, and those of others who have worked with us, have not been wholly unsuccessful, as our presence here to-day and that of noble Ladies opposite is perhaps sufficient testimony. But I hope it will not be supposed that in adopting this attitude we are denying that there are differences both of character and of temperament between the two sexes, and I am sure we should much deprecate the circumstances if those differences did not exist, a view which I am sure will be shared by noble Lords opposite.
Anyone who has seen a detention centre cannot, I think, feel anything but extreme repugnance for the idea that some comparable institution should be established for girls. I say "repugnance" because the kind of treatment which a detention centre envisages is so entirely hostile to the disposition and temperament that we usually find in girls, even in girl offenders. We could, I think, overcome that repugnance if we thought it might be effective or appropriate, but so far no argument has been given from the Benches opposite which seems to us to suggest that such a treatment would be effective or appropriate. More than once in the course of these debates I have been impressed by the academic nature of the arguments which have been served up to us from across the Floor.
It seems to me that noble Lords opposite have little idea of what goes on in the heads of the young people for whom they are trying to prescribe treatment under this Bill. If they have very little idea what goes on in the heads of the young men for whom they are trying to prescribe, it seems to me that they have no idea what goes on in the minds of young women for whom they are now proposing to provide a detention centre. They have used the academic argument that this Bill proposes to do away with short sentences of imprisonment, and that if there are not to be short sentences of imprisonment for boys then there must not be short sentences for girls. The
42
Bill does not do away with short sentences of imprisonment: it does away with intermediate sentences, and it substitutes for them an indeterminate sentence, which may be fairly short. In any case, as my noble friend Lord Stonham has said, short sentences are not called for in the case of young women offenders. Very rarely can they be appropriate, except for the technical offences, the kind of offences which, I was going to say, have been fabricated under such Acts as the Street Offences Act. For offences that call for any period of six months or slightly less, girls are seldom suited.
The girls who come before the courts do not correspond to the kind of youth for whom the detention centre is said to be successful. It is said to be successful for the boy who has a good background but is undisciplined and irresponsible, but who is likely, when he is made to come to terms with himself, to grow up a perfectly satisfactory citizen, without anybody doing very much about it. When the girls come, however, they are usually people whose maladjustment goes much deeper, and for them a mere matter of a disciplinary six months is totally inappropriate. Moreover, it is clear not only that the type of offender for whom a detention centre may be appropriate does not exist for young girls, but also that Her Majesty's Government have not the faintest idea what these centres are for. In the circumstances, I would strongly urge that they leave the matter alone, that they adopt the course suggested by my noble friend Lord Stonham, and create appropriate units, possibly within the actual prison system, where the girls would have the benefit of longer help and skilled guidance.
4.44 p.m.
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL: My Lords, I should like to support what the noble Baroness has said. I must confess that since I have been in this House I have found it difficult to convince noble Lords opposite that there is any difference between a man and a women, except physiologically and biologically. I take it that, before two years ago, they were absolutely convinced that, intellectually, women were far inferior to themselves, because the noble Baroness and I have been allowed to penetrate these august precincts only during the last two years.

43
On the subject of the reaction of women to punishment, I shall never forget the answer of the noble Earl, Lord Bathurst, when I raised this. He looked at me sweetly and said, "But little girls pull off the wings of flies just as little boys do." I felt how utterly naïve that was; and I felt that the noble Lord's education, so far as the reactions of women to society was concerned, had certainly been neglected.
The fact is, as has been said before, that crime is not a field in which women excel. Indeed, the prison world is a man's world. The kind of appalling thing that happened at Dartmoor last night cannot possibly be imagined in the world of women. As I have said before, the woman criminal is a person who is friendless. The man criminal is often an individual who is regarded with some respect, affection and envy by cronies of his. The girl is an isolated creature. She loses her friends; she has denied the conventions, and her home is sometimes closed to her. But if there is a friend, then it will be found in her home. She is receptive to kindness and to example. She certainly resents regimentation; indeed, she is much more individualistic than a boy, who sees himself always identified with a gang, preferably a gang which loves violence.
As I said before, the reason is simple—it is a physiological reason. The woman's approach to life is often determined by her maternal instincts; and the girl, however she has offended against society, want to fulfil herself biologically in precisely the same way as any other woman—to have a home, a husband and children. Yet it is now proposed to regiment her, to put her into detention centres, and completely to ignore the fact that her approach to life is different and her reaction to treatment is different. I have said this before, but I am afraid that my words fell on stony ground. I repeat some of the things I said before only in the hope that there are some noble Lords opposite who have daughters, and who will agree that the approach of their daughters to life, so far as the conventions of society is concerned, is entirely different from that of their sons, and that when they find they have to discipline their daughters they have to think very carefully precisely
44
what the right approach should be, and how she should be handled. If this is so in our own circles, and if we know that it is so difficult, why on earth are we determined to regiment these poor, friendless girls, and think that by so doing we shall create the perfect human being who will fit into society? I ask noble Lords to listen to what the noble Baroness has said, and to vote for this Amendment.
BARONESS ELLIOT OF HARWOOD: My Lords, I had not intended to enter into this discussion, but I felt impelled to do so by the speeches of noble Ladies opposite. They have accused noble Lords on this side of not knowing anything about girls, not knowing anything about how to treat them, not knowing their particular characteristics, and so forth. I think that is going a little far. There are quite a number of us on this side who have had a great deal to do with girls in the course of our lives. I have had a long experience of dealing with girls in various organisations. Of course they are quite different from boys; of course their reactions are quite different in many ways. I think the noble Baroness who has just sat down said that girls are never found in gangs or with gangs. I regret to tell her that in some of the rather difficult towns with which I have been associated gangs are not confined to one sex, but sometimes include girls. It is a pity, I agree, and I am not putting this forward as something we want to see. But it does happen.
The noble Lord, Lord Stonham, has given a great many figures, and they are, of course, perfectly correct. The number of girls who are found to be criminals is very small compared with the number of boys. The noble Baroness, Lady Wootton of Abinger, who has had more experience than any of us, knows that they are on the whole much more difficult to deal with from the point of view of reform than are boys. But the assumption that this experiment, this new plan, of having something in the nature of a detention centre for girls, means that it is going to be exactly like the boys' detention centres seems to me quite unjustified.
I have visited, as I have no doubt many Lords have, a number of detention centres. I think I have been to three

45
and they are the best detention centres, and they are designed for the "short, sharp shock". I am sure that we have a great many exceedingly good women in the prison service and in connection with girls, and I cannot see why a curriculum quite different from the curriculum of the boys' detention centre should not be very valuable indeed in dealing with girls. I cannot see why it should not, for instance, as the noble Baroness, Lady Summerskill, has just said, give girls the example of kindness, of gentleness, of good behaviour, and so on. I do not see why the warden or staff of detention centres for girls could not do just that very thing: give to them a vital example, which they probably have never had or seen in their lives, of how people act and behave and of how to give help to the unfortunate—and unfortunate these girls are. I do not see why they should not help them to understand better and more about life, and have what they probably have not had, and that is, gentle treatment and leadership. To presume that this centre is going to be regimented exactly like a boys' detention centre is a pure assumption. Nobody knows. The curriculum has not yet been announced. This is an experiment. The curriculum has not been decided.
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL: My Lords, may I ask, if nobody knows, how the noble Baroness can be so dogmatic?
BARONESS ELLIOT OF HARWOOD: I am only being dogmatic in answer to the noble Baroness's assumption that it is going to be exactly like a boys' detention centre. I am speaking without the book. I am not in the Government, on the Front Bench, or in the Home Office to know exactly what the plans are, but I think the assumption that anybody who is in the Home Office or anything to do with the Prison Commission or with the handling of offenders has so little imagination and so little understanding of the quite different problems of girls from boys is really—and I have had a great deal to do with the Home Office over many years—not justified. They are exceedingly well-intentioned people who are spending much of their lives trying to meet these great problems.
While I am sympathetic to the suggestion of Lord Stonham, I think there are methods which could be possibly worked out; but that it should be ruled out
46
simply because noble Lords opposite have thought that we on this side have no imagination or ideas to make something quite different between the boys' and the girls' detention centres is, I think, unjustified. I am sure that if some of the people I know in the Home Office and in the service generally are given the opportunity of planning this, it will be something very enlightened, and may prove to be a great success. At any rate, variations are required in the treatment of girl offenders as well as in the case of boy offenders, and we have not, I am sure, found the real way to make them. If this scheme is a success I think we shall be very glad that the opportunity for a different kind of training is going to be given to girls as well as boys.
LORD MANCROFT: My Lords, may I be allowed, as a mere man, to add a few words from the limited experience I had at the Home Office? In the course of that service, I visited between 30 and 40 penal establishments, both here and overseas, and I was rather shocked to hear the noble Baroness, Lady Summerskill, spoil what might be a good argument by a really quite gross overstatement of the case. Anybody who has been to any of the female penal establishments in this country and compared the system there with that in the male establishments will know that what the noble Lady has been arguing is, quite frankly, contrary to the facts. The Prison Commissioners for years have tackled this problem of male delinquency and female delinquency—
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, would the noble Lord allow me to interrupt him? What he is saying has no relation to the Amendment. He said that my noble friend was arguing contrary to the facts. I do not think the noble Lord was in the Chamber when the discussion started. We are not talking about women's penal establishments in general; we are talking only about the one narrow point that there should not be detention centres for girls as there are already for boys.
LORD MANCROFT: I am well aware of that and I am addressing myself to the remarks of the noble Baroness, Lady Summerskill, who has given the impression, I think, that noble Lords on this side of the House are quite unable to

47
distinguish in their minds the difference in the problem of dealing with female offenders as against male offenders. That is how I understood her remarks and it is with those remarks that I cross swords. If I have misunderstood her I will, of course, apologise and withdraw, but that is what I understood her to say. I should like it to be known to your Lordships on this side of the House that, from my limited experience, what the noble Baroness, Lady Summerskill, said, is not so.
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL: Why do you not develop that?
4.56 p.m.
EARL BATHURST: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Stonham, said that I was at sea with my noble and learned friend the Lord Chancellor. I can only say that my noble friend and I have agreed on all points all the way through the Committee stage and on the Second Reading, and I can think of no better person to be at sea with than with my noble and learned friend, whether it be in terms of the legal subjects that we are dealing with to-day, or in any sort of rough and tempestuous sea. I must refer to the noble Baroness, Lady Summerskill, and my statement with regard to flies' wings which she took somewhat out of context. I think that if the noble Lady would read what I said about flies' wings she would see that I was explaining to people on the other side of the House that the sort of girl who would pick off flies' wings and who is not checked would be the sort of girl who was going to land up in a prison establishment under the present legislation. We consider that girls of that sort should no longer go to prison, and because of that the detention centre for girls will be instituted. The noble Lady and in fact all the noble Lords who have spoken have said that there are only a small number of young girls—that is, girls of under 21—in prison. That is quite true. In fact there are something in the region of 25 to 30 young girls in prison for one sort of crime or another, and I am not talking now with regard to prostitution.
This brings me to the sort of crime that the noble Lord, Lord Stonham, mentioned at the beginning of his speech. We envisaged the sort of crimes which
48
are to be punished—and it is punishment—by these centres to be of certain types: larceny, motor car offences in driving and that type of thing. At present, as I have said, crimes of this sort can be punished by the girl being sent to prison. In future this will no longer happen. Sex equality was mentioned, and if the noble Lord and noble Lady would look at the Report, Page 8 on the Treatment of Young Offenders they will see that that is where my statement with regard to what the noble Lord called sex equality comes from. The Advisory Council on the Treatment of Young Offenders who reported thereon consider that if boys should no longer be sent to prison, there was no reason why girls should be sent to prison. If your Lordships will read a little further down, in paragraph 19, I agree that the Advisory Council would have liked to see these establishments in selected women's prisons, which indeed the noble Lord and his two noble friends would like to see also.
LORD STONHAM: Would the noble Lord allow me to interrupt? He gave a figure of 25 young girls in prison. Am I to understand that at any one time 25 young girls are in prison, apart from young prostitutes? If so, what is the basis of that information, because according to my information the number is much less?
EARL BATHURST: I say that 25 or 30, something like that, are in these prisons—I am referring to young girls, apart from those convicted under the Street Offences Act and so forth. I shall be coming to the question of prostitutes in a moment or two. That is the reason why the centre will hold something in the region of 25 people. That is the whole point of fixing the size of the centre at that number. The Advisory Council said that they would have liked these inmates to be accommodated in wings of selected women's prisons, as the noble Lord and his two noble Lady friends have said. We have found that is not practicable—even not possible. With the highest advice, the advice of the sort of people that my noble friend has mentioned, to whose advice the Home Office pays great attention, we believe that one centre where they can all be marshalled, 25 or 30, will be of very much greater benefit to these girls. They

49
will have expert instruction. They will have experts to look after them, and they will have the individual attention which it would be quite impossible to give in the circumstances of a women's prison, no matter how much goodwill may exist to provide such facilities in the women's prison. That is the reason why the centre is going to be set up and that is why we depart from the advice of the Advisory Committee. But I assure your Lordships it is on the highest and most excellent advice that this decision has been made.
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: If I may interrupt (I do not think I have been unduly loquacious so far), may I ask what this highest advice consists of and (where it comes from?
EARL BATHURST: It would probably be very unfair for me to say whom this advice comes from, but my noble friend has already described to your Lordships the sort of people who are available in the Home Office. Their advice is probably the finest advice with regard to women's prisons and borstals for girls and young offenders that there is available in the world; and certainly they have great experience. I have not had the experience my noble friend has had in visiting all these establishments, though I look forward to it in the future. But I have had the privilege and pleasure of talking to some of these people, and one can appreciate haw much they know and what wisdom they have in regard to the treatment of young offenders in particular.
The noble Lord and the noble Baroness, Lady Wootton of Abinger, laid great stress on the fact that these will be abnormal cases of distress and that the persons will be maladjusted. I do not believe that will necessarily be so. They will be perfectly ordinary cases, girls who the court believes are not suitable for a long sentence in borstal, or who would have gone for a short period in prison were the court so allowed to send them. I do not think many of these are going to be seriously maladjusted or abnormal. By and large they are going to be the bad girls, girls who insist on misbehaving. I do assure noble Lords that this curriculum will have nothing to do with the curriculum that is in existence in the boys' organisation, and I thank my noble friend Lady
50
Elliot of Harwood for bringing out that fact. Indeed, the curriculum has not yet been finally decided. If any of your Lordships have particular ideas I am sure they will be considered. The noble Baroness, Lady Wootton of Abinger, suggested courses in hairdressing and manicure.
BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGER: I must protest. I think the noble Earl has entirely misunderstood me. That is the last thing I would have suggested. Perhaps he has made a mistake.
EARL BATHURST: Perhaps it was her noble friend, but certainly hairdressing and so forth was talked about at length on the Committee stage.
BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGER: I am very strongly in favour of skilled hairdressing, but I have never been able to see any connection between this and good civic behaviour.
EARL BATHURST: The noble Lady has put her finger upon it. It is good civic behaviour that will be taught in these establishments. How it will be taught, and what subjects will be taught, is very open, and any suggestions your Lordships may make would of course be carefully studied.
The noble Lord, Lord Stonham, and others of your Lordships have mentioned this problem of prostitution. Of course, wherever delinquent women are concentrated in a mass, in a group, such as in a prison, wherever older girls, and younger girls for that matter too, are concentrated—for instance in borstals or such centres as we are discussing—there is bound to be the problem of prostitution. Many of those who are sentenced, whether to borstals or approved schools or to these centres, may already be prostitutes, though they may not necessarily have been sentenced for prostitution. It is really one more reason why we believe that these particular girls, for whom the court decides that a short sentence is the most suitable punishment and training, should be together in one place where they can get the individual attention and skill that is necessary to look after them. I doubt whether long sentences, be it in borstal, in prison or anywhere else, is a great cure or penalty for prostitution. I daresay that noble Lords opposite think likewise; but there is no doubt

51
that there will be this problem, as indeed there is in all institutions where delinquent women or senior girls will be.
The noble Lord mentioned the distance from parents. It is a problem that this centre is bound to be some distance from parents. But no doubt many of these girls will have unsatisfactory homes, or possibly no parents at all. On the other hand, there are ways and means by which parents and friends can go to visit this detention centre, and they will be used to the full extent. But we believe that what is important is to have a really well-organised, well-run and happy centre, which will be possible where there are a small number grouped together under one roof, as it were, and under expert care. We believe that the advantages which that will give will far outweigh the distance parents or friends may have to travel to visit them. I think I have covered all the points.
LORD STONHAM: Will the noble Earl deal with the question of separate accommodation for prostitutes?
EARL BATHURST: I have said that there are bound to be prostitutes among the girls in the centre; there are bound to be in borstal and women's prisons. But I am saying that those girls who are now in prison are already with prostitutes in any ease. They may well be prostitutes in their own right, as it were; or they may have been led towards it before they went in or after they go out. That is one more reason why there should be a single centre where these girls will be able to have the expert care and almost individual care, which it is not possible to give in small centres of two or three girls—or even only one girl—as occurs in women's prisons to-day. This question really has been looked into most carefully by my right honourable friend and the experts in the Home Office, and we have concluded from this advice that we cannot accept the noble Lord's Amendment.
5.10 p.m.
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, as I indicated when I moved the Amendment, we regard this as a most important Amendment, and your Lordships will appreciate that I find the noble Earl's reply extremely disappointing. Indeed,
52
with respect, I must say that it fell far short of the case that was put up and does not really attempt to answer it. The noble Earl commenced his speech by saying that he agreed entirely with the noble and learned Viscount who sits on the Woolsack; but then almost in his last words he informed the House that prostitutes would be kept with the other girls. It will be within the recollection of the House that on the Commitee stage the noble and learned Viscount assured us that he could not conceive of magistrates sending any prostitute to a detention centre.
EARL BATHURST: If I may intervene, does the noble Lord mean girls sentenced, for one reason or another uncle the Street Offences Act, for prostitution or girls sentenced for larceny or a motoring offence who might happen to be prostitutes?
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, I made my position perfectly clear, and if the noble Earl had really listened, the figures I quoted were the total number of sentences in the whole country in six months, of girls under 21. They were round about 150 a year. Then I quoted the figures within those figures the girls who were sentenced for prostitution. That does not mean they may have stolen something and in fact also be prostitutes. In fact, I said that almost all the girls who are in prison have some sexual abnormality or give evidence of sexual tendencies. But I am sure that there is no difference between the noble and learned Viscount and myself upon this point: he was firmly of the opinion that no bench of magistrates would send a girl to a detention centre for the offence of prostitution. I have now proved to your Lordships by official figures that half, or more than half, the small number of girls under 21 sent to prison are, in fact, sentenced for the offence of prostitution. Therefore, the point—and it is a valid one—which I put to the noble Earl, and which he has not answered, was: if the Government intend to keep these girls separate from the petty pilferers, what arrangements are going to be made for them?
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: Would the noble Lord allow me to intervene? I have been following his figures most carefully. I do not think he gave us

53
the number of those sentenced for prostitution, say over a month, who therefore would be within the detention centre purview. Obviously, there must be a number of short sentences. I do not want to dogmatise out of an hypothesis, but I should have thought that a number of the sentences for prostitution would be so short that no one would ever think of sentencing those concerned to a detention centre.
LORD STONHAM: I am afraid I cannot accept that.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: Has the noble Lord the figure of how many sentences there were for prostitution? It cannot be for more than three months. How many of them were over a month?
LORD STONHAM: I did make that point, that the prostitute cannot be sentenced to more than three months—indeed, I said so. But the figures for sentences of from one to seven days were 18; and from seven days to one month, 72. That is not for prostitutes alone, but for all girls under 21. The figures, shall we say, from one day to a maximum of three months for all girls, were, in 1959, 46—in fact, all but 13. Therefore, it is a valid point that half of these girls were sentenced for the offence of prostitution. If the noble and learned Viscount will read to-morrow's OFFICIAL REPORT it will be seen that I asked the rhetorical question: would the first 90 go to a detention centre? Obviously, they would not. They would not have time to change their clothes.
I used these figures to point out how fantastic this idea was, and the noble Earl has not really attempted to answer the point. That is why I interrupted him, and asked what was the basis of his figure that at any one time there were 25 girls in prison, including prostitutes. My own opinion is that at any time, including prostitutes, there are only about 12 or 15 in prison, and if you divide that number by two it destroys the case on economic grounds for a single detention centre.
I have made all these points. I am sorry that the noble Baroness, Lady Elliot of Harwood, took exception to anything I said. I want to assure her that I did not at any time say that noble Lords opposite knew nothing about girls. I should not dream of saying a
54
thing like that. What I meant to imply was that it is obvious that the Government, apparently with the approval of noble Lords opposite, thought that the idea of "knees bend" treatment in a detention centre was equally suitable for girls as for boys. I think it is absolutely unsuitable, because they are mostly maladjusted and require a longer period. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, that conditions and treatment in our penal establishments for women are of a different order entirely. Anyone who has been to Holloway knows that. But that really was not the point we were on. The point we are on is whether this very small number of girls, disturbed and maladjusted, should be put in one centre in the heart of the country, or whether they should be dealt with in separate units in new prisons.
I was most disturbed both by the fact that the noble Baroness, Lady Elliot of Harwood, was able to assure us, as I thought, that the treatment was going to be so different, and nothing whatever to be compared with the treatment in a boys' detention centre, and that the noble Earl was also able to give that assurance. Then he went on to say that the curriculum will have nothing to do with the curriculum in a boys' detention centre, and that the curriculum has not yet been decided on. How can it be said that it is going to be so different if it has not been decided?
Then the noble Earl said that the advice on which the Government were proceeding was advice on the highest possible level. I accept that; indeed, I accept that therefore that advice must be unanimous. When he was asked by my noble friend Lord Longford to disclose who it was who advised on the highest possible level; who gave the advice which is directly contrary to the advice which has been given by the Home Office's own Advisory Council on the Treatment of Offenders—
EARL BATHURST: With the greatest respect, the reason why it is contrary—it is the last paragraph which I mentioned, paragraph 19—is that the Prison Commissioners, who are responsible for running the prisons, have found that it is almost impossible to run them from small units within the women's prisons and that it is more economic and, they believe, would be more beneficial to the girls, to

55
concentrate them in a group. That is the reason why this Bill differs from that advice.
LORD STONHAM: I really cannot accept that. The statement that I made was a statement of fact. In paragraph 19 of the Home Office's own Advisory Council's Report on the Treatment of Offenders, it says this:
"In 1957, only 98 females under the age of 21 were sentenced to imprisonment for six months or less"
It goes on:
"It would clearly be impracticable to set up a detention centre for such a small number of offenders"—
and that is what I have endeavoured to prove in my speech. But I would say that that is very high-level advice. Mr. Justice Barry was Chairman of the Advisory Council. The members included Sir Charles Cunningham, Permanent Secretary to the Home Office; Sir George Benson, so long prominent in these matters and a prominent member of the Howard League; Sir Laurence Dunne, who was the Chief Metropolitan Magistrate; Baroness Elliot of Harwood herself, and Mrs. Xenia Field. I know of very few women who have been more constantly visiting people and who know about people more than does Mrs. Field. We could go down the list. I would say that it was not merely an extremely distinguished Committee, but a high-level Committee who were very experienced

CONTENTS

Airedale, L.

Lindgren, L.

Stonham, L. [Teller.]

Alexander of Hillsborough, V.

Longford, E.

Summerskill, B.

Amwell, L.

Lucan, E. [Teller.]

Terrington, L.

Colwyn, L.

Ogmore, L.

Walston, L.

Henderson, L.

Pethick-Lawrence, L.

Williams, L.

Iddesleigh, E.

Rea, L.

Wise, L.

Latham, L.

Silkin, L.

Wootton of Abinger, B.

Lawson, L.

Sinha, L.

NOT-CONTENTS

Ailwyn, L.

Craigmyle, L.

Hampton, L.

Ampthill, L.

Crathorne, L.

Harris, L.

Ashton of Hyde, L.

Denning, L.

Hastings, L.

Atholl, D.

Derwent, L.

Hawke, L.

Auckland, L.

Elliot of Harwood, B.

Jellicoe, E.

Bathurst, E.

Falmouth, V.

Kilmuir, V. (L. Chancellor.)

Bethell, L.

Fortescue, E.

Lansdowne, M.

Birdwood, L.

Fraser of Lonsdale, L.

Lothian, M.

Bossom, L.

Fraser of North Cape, L.

Lyle of Westbourne, L.

Buckinghamshire, E.

Glentanar, L.

MacAndrew, L.

Clwyd, L.

Goschen, V.

McCorquodale of Newton, L.

Colville of Culross, V.

Gosford, E.

Mancroft, L.

Conesford, L.

Hailsham, V. (L. President.)

Margesson, V.

indeed in these matters. I would describe their advice as top advice.
I feel that, unfortunately, the Government have failed to answer our case. I assure the noble Earl that I am not attempting to score points. We regard this as a matter far too serious and far too important to attempt that. I really believe that if the Government persist in their proposals they will be making a tragic mistake and one which will have tragic consequences on a number of helpless and maladjusted girls. The noble Earl was at pains to assure us that it would be totally different. I am quite sure that the Government intend it shall be totally different; after what we have heard it would be impossible for it to be otherwise. Then why do they still persist in calling it a detention centre? Why cannot it be called something else, for Heaven's sake! and not have this detention-centre aura stuck to it? Why cannot the Government accept this Amendment? —and if they have one or two places that are going to be different, then call them something different, and do not stubbornly persist in refusing us our Amendment. I hope that, even now, they will not persist in refusing and force us to divide, but will think about it again so that on Third Reading, perhaps, we can have this changed.
On Question, Whether the said Amendment shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided: Contents 23; Non-Contents, 51.

Merrivale, L.

Perth, E.

Spens, L.

Milverton, L.

Ravensdale of Kedleston, B.

Swinton, E.

Newall, L.

St. Oswald, L. [Teller.]

Tweedsmuir, L.

Newton, L. [Teller.]

Somers, L.

Twining, L.

5.28 p.m.
THE EARL OF LONGFORD THE EARL OF LONGFORD moved, after Clause 4 to insert the following new clause:
Detention Centre Staffs
".The Staff of each detention centre shall include a Warden and one or more sub-wardens or house-masters."
The noble Earl said: My Lords, I hope that we need not spend too long on this Amendment, but some of us are very much concerned with the staffing of the detention centres. I would say that at the top level, so far as I could judge, they are understaffed. On the last stage, on May 16, the noble Earl, Lord Bathurst, was kind enough to correct an impression he had given on the previous evening and he explained the staffing of the detention centres. These were the words he used [OFFICIAL REPORT, Vol. 231 (No. 81), col. 481]:
"There are a warden and sub-warden, who are, of course, responsible for the centre."
We are proposing that the staff at the detention centre shall include a warden and one or two sub-wardens or housemasters. Therefore, on the face of it, the noble Earl should have no difficulty in accepting this Amendment, because it simply appears to give effect to what he says the system is.
Whilst I cannot speak of many detention centres, I can speak of one with some little knowledge, and I feel that the account given by the noble Earl last time on the advice supplied to him—the highest advice., if I may use the expression which was used just now—was liable to give a false impression. I know the noble Earl is the most candid of men. It is true that in the detention centre I know best there is a warden and there is a "No. 2", who is in fact called a deputy warden; but this "No. 2" is simply the chief officer who has had the words "deputy warden", as I understand it, added to his title. Before that there was a housemaster who was a sub-warden at the same time, and he was removed on the ground that the staff did not require him. After his departure, at some point
58
or other the chief officer, who I suppose might be compared to a regimental sergeant major or a company sergeant major, was then created, so to speak, a deputy warden in addition to other duties.
When we talk of a warden and sub-warden, we have in mind, presumably, a warden of governor's rank, which is in fact the rank of the warden, and a sub-warden of the rank of assistant governor. Now I do not want to take too long over this, but I should like to ask the noble Earl whether am right in thinking that the sub-warden here is not even of the rank of assistant governor. I would say that when we talk of a warden and sub-warden, we mean by a sub-warden someone whose duties consist of being a sub-warden and nothing else, and who is of assistant governor rank. Can I put that to the noble Earl? Am I right in thinking that the sub-wardens in these detention centres at the present time are not even of the assistant governor rank? Perhaps the noble Earl could tell me that now.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 4, insert the said new clause.—(The Earl of Longford.)
EARL BATHURST: My Lords, I must thank the noble Earl for giving me notice of the fact that he was going to put this question in moving his Amendment this afternoon. I think I must make it quite clear again what the actual position is with regard to these detention centres. Now there is a warden, who is in charge of the establishment. He is assisted by a chief officer, to whom the noble Earl has been referring, and who acts as his deputy. That chief officer is the senior disciplinary officer in the establishment—after the warden, of course. He is obviously junior to the warden, but he is senior to everybody else who may be there. So although he may not be, as I think the noble Earl called him, a deputy governor—
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: No, I did not. I asked whether he was of assistant governor rank, and I gather the answer is "No."
EARL BATHURST: He may not be, but he is certainly the immediate senior to all the others on the staff except for the warden. He could become a governor at any time. It depends on the sort of man he may be. After the chief officer—that is, the second-in-command, who is in every way—
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: My Lords, I do not want to press the noble Earl about the rest of the staff, or to take him through them.
EARL BATHURST: If the noble Earl says that, then it is not necessary for me to say any more with regard to his Amendment.
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: I do not want to stop the noble Earl, but I do not want to take him through the rest of the staff, with which I am not concerned.
EARL BATHURST: I will not go through the remainder of the members of the staff, but I want to assure the noble Earl that the assistant officer is in every way a proper person to be the second-in-command of a detention centre. I think that in the course of his speech upon this Amendment the noble Earl was insinuating that perhaps, in certain circumstances, he was not a suitable person. I think that that would be an unfair inference to draw about these men, who have considerable responsibilities and who, I assure the noble Earl, are carrying out their duties to the best of their ability and, in every respect, in the best possible way. I hope that I have made it clear to the noble Earl what the situation is.
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: I am afraid the noble Earl has made it as clear as mud. I am afraid I find his answer—and I say it with great deference, because I know he is acting on advice—100 per cent. unsatisfactory. Of course there is bound to be a "No. 2." It is obvious that there is somebody under the governor who is senior to the others. I certainly was not insinuating that an individual officer in any detention centre was of an unsuitable type or character. If one went to a company and found that there was a company commander and nobody higher than a sergeant, you would not say that the sergeant was a man who was himself unsuitable, but you might regret the absence of platoon commanders. I am
60
bound to say this to the noble Earl, who I think is exceptionally popular on these Benches: that I think the advice given to him last time was far from right when he said that there was a warden and a sub-warden. That is not correct. I should have thought that the noble Earl would have realised by to-day that he in fact, in words, misinformed us last time, and would have expressed his regrets for doing so.
EARL BATHURST: It may be that I have used a wrong term by saying "sub-warden", but I think "sub-warden" in either way means a deputy, does it not? I hope I did not in any way mislead your Lordships in saying that the housemaster principle does not apply in these detention centres. That was the whole point of my intervention. I hope I did not mislead your Lordships in any way by implying that the sub-warden was not a suitable second-in-command of such a centre. I can assure your Lordships that this chief officer, as the second-in-command, is in every way the sort of man who can take full charge, and who does indeed take full charge when the warden is away on leave or in other circumstances.
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: My Lords, I am sorry to be unkind to the noble Earl, but I must say that I think he was badly briefed last time. His advisers tried to be too clever by informing us that there was a warden and a sub-warden when there was not a warden and a sub-warden, and I do not think they should have given him that advice. However, these are administrative matters in the last resort. We shall continue our discussion on detention centres, and no doubt in the course of debate will raise the issue again. I know that the noble Earl would never come down here and not be completely candid, but, as I say, I think he has been badly assisted by his officials. In the circumstances, while I withdraw the Amendment, I hope that this particular form of words will not be used again.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 5. [Detention of defaulters aged 14 to 16]:
5.41 p.m.
LORD LATHAM LORD LATHAM moved, in subsection (1), to leave out "or to a remand home". The noble Lord said: My Lords, this Amendment is related to

61
Amendment No. 7 and to Amendments Nos. 35 and 36. Its purpose is, first, specifically to prevent remand homes from being used as places of punitive detention for children or young persons who have failed to pay fines imposed by the courts, and, secondly, to terminate the use of remand homes as places of punitive detention. These Amendments, and the purposes 'which they seek, were impressively argued, I think, on the Committee stage, and the noble and learned Viscount who leads the House will recall that he promised that the matter would be looked into. Moreover, he went so far as to say that the last thing he would want to suggest is that a remand home is a suitable place for punishment. That, my Lords, is the whole point. The use of remand homes is being, as it were, distorted, from the growing diagnostic facilities and purposes for which they are being used, into places of punitive detention. I hope that, as a consequence of the consideration which the noble Viscount promised, he may be in a position to hold out some hope that the purposes of these Amendments can be met by the Government. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 4, line 38, leave out "or to a remand home".—(Lord Latham.)
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, as the noble Lord has said, we discussed this point on Committee stage, and I am sorry to say that I must tell the House that our further consideration of the arguments put forward by the noble Lord has yielded the same result. The particular Amendment before the House deals with fine-defaulters. The purpose of these Amendments is to preclude the committal to a remand home, in default of payment, of a person who has attained the age of 14 years but is not yet 17 years. Under Clause 5, such a person would be committed to a remand home if the period of committal were to be one month or less, and to a detention centre if the period were to be longer than one month, special provision being made in Clause 6 for the defaulter who at the time of committal is already detained in a detention centre on some other ground.
The point on the defaulters is that they do exist as a small class, and the question is: what are we to do with them? There are good reasons, as I frankly
62
conceded on Committee stage, against the use of detention centres for committal for short periods. The Advisory Council deprecated it on the ground—and here I quote their words—that:
"The training programme of a centre would be disrupted if the centre had to receive a number of offenders with sentences of varying lengths, many of them very short, who were committed to custody not with a view to training but as a sanction for the enforcement of a payment."
The detention centre, therefore, is an unsuitable place. But there are stronger, and I should have thought quite obvious, reasons for not using prison for those under 17 years of age, though that sanction is retained, on the. Council recommendation, for defaulters aged 17 to 21. What the noble Lord has not done, and what we have also been unable to do (so I do not complain about it), is to find a suitable alternative to what is proposed in this Bill. It is all very well to say that the remand home is unsuitable. So is the detention centre; so is prison. What is to be done with them? The number of defaulters under 17 is too small to warrant the setting up of special institutions, as seemed to be suggested when the subject was last debated What, then, is to be done? The least unsatisfactory solution is what we propose, and certainly no other alternative has been suggested.
Perhaps I ought to add a word about the other Amendments, Nos. 35 and 36, because owing to the way in which things fell out on Committee, although I answered the particular Amendment which corresponded to the present one, as the other two were not moved I did not have an opportunity to answer them. They, of course, deal not with fine-defaulters but with substantive offenders. The first of them would delete the new version of Section 54 from the Children and Young Persons Act, 1933, contained in the Fourth Schedule; and the second Amendment, No. 36, would repeal the existing version of the section entirely. As it stands, Section 54 of the Act of 1933 empowers a court to commit to custody in a remand home for not more than a month a person under the age of 17 who, if he were an adult, could be sentenced to imprisonment for an offence or committed to prison for a default. Of course, it is necessary to re-write that provision in order to take account of the changes effected by the Bill, and in

63
particular the fact that the committal of defaulters aged 14 and under 17 to detention centres or remand homes will be governed by Clause 5.
My Lords, there was a division of opinion in front of the Ingleby Committee as to this particular matter. There were some people who gave evidence who wished to see the power to use the remand home for this purpose abolished, on the ground that the presence of children sent to remand homes for punitive detention interfered with the more important responsibilities of remand homes for studying offenders sent there by the courts for observation. That was one point of view, and it is the point of view reflected by the noble Lord opposite in these Amendments. On the other hand, other witnesses in front of the Ingleby Committee took exactly the opposite point of view—namely, that the power should not only be retained, but should be increased by increasing the maximum period of detention to two, or even three, months. As it happens, the Ingleby Committee took a middle view. They found that the courts had used the power sparingly and with discretion. Detention centres, even when they become generally available, will not provide for those under the age of 14. The Committee considered that the power could appropriately be used in exceptional cases in which residential training was not required. They recommended that it should be retained, subject to the existing restriction that no other method of treatment is suitable. The Government have accepted that recommendation of the Ingleby Committee, which is set out in paragraphs 316 and 317 of their Report.
This is not a matter about which one need take too tragic a view. There is a certain amount of argument to be put legitimately on the other side in both cases. After considerable consideration, we decided to continue to accept the advice of the Ingleby Committee, and with the balance of choice as at present the advantage in relation to the fine-defaulter remains in favour of using remand homes for this purpose. For those reasons, we cannot accept the noble Lord's Amendments, but I hope he will not feel that we have treated them otherwise than with great respect.
LORD SILKIN: My Lords, speaking for myself I agree with the noble and learned Viscount that on this Amendment we have to choose between two evils, and I am not wholly distressed that the Government have come down on one side. I fail to see any alternative. But we are on common ground in saying that remand homes are not the right places to use for the purpose of this clause. While I recognise that the Government have a big programme, if they are going to carry it out, in providing the right kind of places of detention (using the word in a general sense) for different kinds of offences, I would ask the noble and learned Viscount to make representations to his right honourable friend that the Government should treat as a matter of urgency the provision of suitable places for dealing with this kind of case other than remand homes.
It is not a thing that can be done straight away, but ideally some other kind of place ought to be made available. It is not a good thing that young people should be sent to remand homes which are being used, particularly by the larger authorities, for quite a different purpose. And I am thinking not only of the effect on young offenders, but also of the effect on those who are being treated in the remand homes. It is interfering substantially with the treatment other people are being given. I would ask the noble and learned Viscount if he will make representations to ensure that these cases are separated and some other provision made in due course for the cases we are dealing with under this clause.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, I can speak again only with the permission of the House. Obviously, in view of the considerable balance of argument on both sides, I will ask my right honourable friend to keep this matter in his eye. But I said originally, and I think I must adhere to this part of what I said, that in view of the small number involved we cannot undertake to set up entirely new institutions for the purpose of detaining fine-defaulters under 17 and the very few who are sentenced to imprisonment for a month. I think that we have to stick to that, but in view of what the noble Lord has said and the close balance of the arguments, I will

65
certainly ask my right honourable friend to keep his mind on this matter.
LORD LATHAM: My Lords, in view of the assurance that the official mind will be kept open on this subject, which is a very important one, and one in which local authorities are closely interested, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 7 [Consecutive terms and aggregate periods of detention]:
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, I have prepared what. I thought was a very good speech on the next two Amendments, Nos. 8 and 9, which seek to reduce to six months the time which could be spent in detention by one person, but this morning I recieved from the noble and learned Viscount a letter which convinced me, at least of one thing, that the Government are not prepared to accept this Amendment. To a lesser extent, the letter convinced me that there was little between us and I think that it would be better, in the interests of economy of time, if I continued the argument in private with the noble and learned Viscount. Therefore, I do not propose to move these two Amendments.
Clause 10 [Attendance at attendance centres]:
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, your Lordships will remember that we had an interesting minor discussion, on this point on Committee stage. I think that it was the noble Earl, Lord Iddesleigh, who was responsible for it. I think that this Amendment meets the point. The noble Earl moved in Committee to leave out the word "public" before "transport", on the ground that it appeared to preclude the court from having regard to private means of transport, such as a bicycle or family car. There was some discussion, in which my noble and learned friend the Lord Chief Justice spoke. It is desirable to remove any possibility of doubt on this matter. The Amendment therefore proposes to substitute for "the availability of public transport" the words "the means of access available to him", which are wide enough to include all forms of transport, public or private, and the offender's ability to reach the centre on
66
foot if it is near enough to his home. This has relevance to the other proposition of the mediæval schoolmen: how many angels could balance on a point of a needle? I hope that we have balanced these two successfully. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 8, line 15, leave out from ("age") to ("and") in line 16 and insert ("the means of access available to him").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGER: My Lords, when I returned to the Chamber just now, I understood the noble and learned Viscount opposite to say that, after cerebration, the Government have remained exactly where they were on the previous Amendment. I should like to congratulate Her Majesty's Government on this occasion—the cerebration appears to have been fruitful.
THE EARL OF IDDESLEIGH: My Lords, since I raised in Committee the point with which this Amendment is concerned, I should like to say that I am entirely satisfied with the Amendment which the noble and learned Viscount who sits on the Woolsack has been good enough to propose. I think that it is an adequate solution of the problem. The only point on which I differ from the noble and learned Viscount is with regard to angels dancing on the point of a pin. This was never propounded by the mediaeval schoolmen. It was a gibe at the medieval schoolmen, invented, I believe, in the 17th century.
6.0 p.m.
THE EARL OF LONGFORD THE EARL OF LONGFORD moved, after Clause 10 to insert the following new clause:
Training centres
".—(1) The Secretary of State may make by statutory instrument regulations providing for the establishment of training centres, that is to say places in which persons—

(a) who are not less than fourteen but under twenty-one years of age; and

(b) in respect of whom probation orders have been made,

may be required to attend for a period of hours each day, and in which such training and instruction shall be given as will conduce to their reformation and the prevention of crime.
(2) A statutory instrument made under this section shall be subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of either House of Parliament."
The noble Earl said: My Lords, I rise to move Amendment No. 11, to which many of us, certainly on these Benches and I know also in all parts of the House, attach some importance. It provides for the establishment of nonresidential training centres to which young offenders may be sent for a period of hours each day. I will say a word or two before I sit down about the relationship of this Amendment to the next one, No. 12, but I should like to concentrate mainly on the Amendment before us.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, I think it would be for the convenience of the House if at any rate the debate should be common to both Amendments, so that we should be free to discuss the content of each. If the noble Earl wishes to divide on them separately, that, of course, would be another matter.
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: I am perfectly happy with that suggestion if it is understood that after the discussion on Amendment No. 11, if that is negatived, we are still in a position to continue the general discussion in relation to Amendment No. 12. Would the Leader of the House confirm that that is his idea?
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: Nobody in this House can stop anybody from continuing the discussion, except in exceptional circumstances.
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: I have in mind that in my time in this House the only noble Lord about whom it has been moved that he should no longer be heard suffered that fate at the hands of the noble Viscount, and I was only frightened that it might come my way also.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: In that case, the noble Lord actually volunteered for the guardhouse.
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: We must see how we get on. This is, in essence, the same as the Amendment which on the Committee stage received what the noble Viscount the Leader of the House
68
described as [OFFICIAL REPORT, Vol. 231 (No. 81), col. 546]:
"the almost unanimous and obviously enthusiastic support of those … present"
In fact, there were a great many noble Lords and noble Ladies present on that occasion—whether it was because a debate on corporal punishment was about to follow, I do not know—and I can only hope, as this is a matter in which such interest is taken, that we shall fill up before we close. It may be that some noble Lords may need to "fill up" before I close, as my remarks are not going to be particularly brief; but I have kept somewhat silent hitherto.
Apart from the noble Lord, Lord Amwell, who was concerned with rather different issues, all who followed me in the debate last time and spoke before the Minister spoke strongly in favour of the Amendment. The all-Party solidarity was most remakable, as was the expertness of the speakers. The noble Baroness, Lady Elliot of Harwood (to whom I shall venture to refer again and who I am glad has been able to rejoin us) the noble Baroness, Lady Ravensdale of Kedleston, and the noble Viscount, Lord Astor, from the Conservative Benches; the noble Lord, Lord Rea, the Leader of the Liberals; and from this side of the House, the noble Lord, Lord Morrison of Lambeth and the noble Baroness, Lady Wootton of Abinger, were all equally warm and emphatic, and others showed their sympathy in various ways.
I had come down to the House last time hoping that the Government would accept the Amendment, at any rate in principle, but if they did not accept it, we were resolved to divide; and our resolution in that last respect was further fortified by the general enthusiasm to which I have already referred and which was greater and more widespread than even I had expected. It seemed wrong, however, to divide the Committee after the noble Viscount, Lord Hail-sham, had spoken, mainly for two reasons. First of all, the noble Viscount, who is not only an eminent lawyer himself but has access to lawyers and draftsmen who are outside my reach, insisted that even if a clause to the general effect that we had in mind were to go into the Bill, the words chosen were not suitable for the purpose.

69
I have tried, in the meanwhile, to find better words to say the same thing, although I have no doubt that even these words can be picked to pieces; they always can: what would draftsmen be for, so to speak, if they could not point to the errors of the amateur? But it is snow nearly a month since the Committee stage, and I must assume that either the Government are in a position this time to draft for us what we want to put into the Bill, or else they consider that something of this kind should not go into the Bill at all. While, therefore, I am once again ready to accept any better form of words that the Government may suggest to give effect to our idea, I am sure that to-day those of us who are convinced that a proposal of this sort should be included in the Bill must not be prevented by drafting difficulties from recording our conviction.
Secondly, the noble Viscount, Lord Hailsham, used a weightier argument in persuading me and those with me last time to hold our hands. He said that for various reasons he had not been fully prepared for his "ordeal". He could not say, therefore, definitely on that occasion whether the necessary legislative framework for a proposal of this kind could be put into the Bill before Report. It was clearly right, in those circumstances, to give him and his colleagues time to consider whether they were ready and able to put something into the Bill at this stage. Well, they have had time, and the Government have not put down a clause themselves: possibly they are waiting for a further expression of opinion in the House this afternoon. But, whatever their attitude, those of us who believe that a clause of this kind should go into the Bill cannot be expected to hold our hands any longer.
We come, therefore, to the crucial question whether a legislative framework making possible the establishment of these centres should be included in the Bill this afternoon, as we suggest, or whether it should not. If something of the kind should go into the Bill, the second point that arises is whether Clause 11 or, failing that, Clause 12 is, broadly speaking, the right to put it.
I am not going to labour the merits of the proposal, if only because I have spoken at some length about them both on Second Reading and on Committee
70
stage. I hope that noble Lords who may not have testified at the same length will offer their views this afternoon about the merits of the proposals; but, as I say, I have spoken about them twice, and twice, the House may think, is enough. I will not again recite the outstanding support that the proposal has received in various quarters outside the House. The noble Viscount himself was good enough to mention last time the support of the Magistrates' Association. The probation officers have not discussed this officially, so far as I am aware, but it has the public backing of the General Secretary, Mr. Frank Dautry, whom I personally would rather have on my side in this field than any other man in the country.
We are all delighted that the noble Baroness, Lady Elliot of Harwood, is presiding over a sub-committee of the Advisory Council on the Treatment of Young Offenders, a sub-committee which has been set up especially to consider this kind of proposal. The noble Baroness made no secret last time about her own view of the merits of the principle involved. No one about to conduct an investigation ever gave so strong a lead to her colleagues, and I think she is to be congratulated for that. I think she said that the Amendment was an admirable one. One cannot speak more plainly or generously about an Amendment than that. The noble Viscount, Lord Hailsham, seemed to promise as much from the Home Secretary. He said: [OFFICIAL REPORT, VOL 231 (No. 81), col. 544]:
"I think it would be fair for me to say that the Home Secretary will be at least as sympathetic to the proposal as my noble friend".
And by "my noble friend", I believe he referred to the noble Baroness. Therefore, knowing as we do the enthusiasm of the noble Baroness, and knowing that the Home Secretary will be at least as sympathetic, we can expect a good deal from the Home Secretary. In that quotation I do not want to tie the noble Viscount down to any particular details, but I think we can say that he guaranteed great sympathy from the Home Secretary, at least for the general idea.
That being so, what reason could the Government find if they declined to put something in the Bill? And, as I say, they have not come forward to-day and put

71
anything in. The noble Viscount, Lord Hailsham, himself very fairly recognises the advantage of putting something in if it were at all possible. The House will recall that the noble Lord, Lord Morrison of Lambeth, pointed out in the discussion the grave disadvantage of waiting until the Advisory Council had dealt with the proposal, because, as the noble Lord, Lord Morrison of Lambeth, reminded us, or suggested, even if the Advisory Council and the Home Secretary both came down in favour of the proposal, we still might have to wait another five or ten years for another Criminal Justice Bill.
The noble Viscount, Lord Hailsham, acknowledged that there was considerable force in that point. He said: [OFFICIAL REPORT, Vol. 231, (No. 81), col. 544]:
"It is always better if one can take advantage of an existing Bill. I am sure the Home Secretary … will also see the advantages of utilising what legislative time is available in this Session."
So we may take it that in the Government's recent thinking they have been sympathetic, not only to the idea of what is sometimes called the Henriques plan, but also to the possibility of including it in this Bill. I repeat, what possible reason can there be for not putting something to this effect in this Bill?
We appreciate that there is a great deal of work for the noble Baroness, Lady Elliot of Harwood, to get through. She herself mentioned questions of accommodation and personnel, and the noble Baroness, Lady Wootton of Abinger, laid stress on the curriculum and what was actually going to be taught there. The noble Baroness, Lady Wootton of Abinger, said last time [col. 541]:
"I hope that the noble Lady's sub-Committee will do fundamental new thinking and try to make the character of these new institutions fit the needs of the young people who attend them."
I would point out that the noble Baroness, Lady Wootton of Abinger, was supporting the Amendment.
There is, however, no reason at all why an enabling clause should not be inserted in the present bill in advance of the findings of the sub-committee, even though the training centres themselves will naturally not be set up until
72
the sub-committee have reported and the Government have considered their report. Indeed, the noble Baroness, Lady Elliot of Harwood, herself intervened last time to say that she did not suggest that this Amendment ought to be delayed until her committee had reported. The noble Lord, Lord Morrison of Lambeth, thought he had extracted from her an indication that she would support the Amendment, but I am not sure that she went as far as that. But she did say in her intervention that she did not suggest that this Amendment had to be delayed until after her committee had reported.
There seems to me one point of substance, and one only, about which the Home Secretary might reasonably be in some considerable doubt when drafting a clause at this stage: should the plan for training centres be specifically linked with probation as it is linked in Clause 11, or should this plan for training centres be tabulated without being specifically linked with probation? That is what is proposed in the other Amendment on this subject, Amendment No. 12. In Amendment No. 11 there is this link between centres and probation, and I explained at some length last time the nature of that link and how it is proposed that the connection will work out. I certainly do not rule out the possibility that in time to come the training centres might be used more widely than this. As I ventured to say on Second Reading, they seem to me to offer us the vision of a new approach to penal problems, but in view of all the difficulties that confront us, in the first place in regard to accommodation, personnel and so on, it still seems to me desirable to put the proposal forward in the concrete way in which it has been worked out by Sir Basil Henriques, adapting the Boston plan for British purposes, and to link it specifically with probation.
If I am told that the Government would prefer to keep their hands free until this question of the link with probation has been more fully explored by the Advisory Sub-Committee—I can speak only for myself—I think that most of us who support this Amendment would be ready to see Amendment No. 11 withdrawn and Amendment No. 12 adopted instead, under which the whole question of the relationship of probation with centres would be left open. But if the Government will not accept either

73
Amendments No. 11 or No. 12, then I am sure that all who believe in this plan should go all out for Amendment No. 11, which gives effect to the Henriques plan, as that great social reformer had worked it out. If Amendment No. 11 is beaten, we must see about No. 12, but at this stage I do not want to consider defeat. I put No. 11 before your Lordships, repeating what I have said earlier, that I believe a scheme of this sort offers a brighter ray of hope than anything we have seen in the penal world for many years. I beg the Government and the whole House, in earnestness, to accept this. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 10 insert the said new clause.— (The Earl of Longford.)
LORD LINDGREN: My Lords, my noble friend has moved this Amendment so clearly, and his speeches in the debate of May 15 were so extensive and clear, that there is very little more that one ought to say. There is one point, from my experience in the petty sessional courts, to which I wish to draw attention in this Amendment, and that is that it gives me, too, an opportunity to pay tribute to the excellent and devoted service which probation officers are now performing. They are overworked—I was going to say, "and underpaid", but that is not for me to say.
It is, however, foolish of us not to recognise that at the moment, because of the burden that is placed upon them, the amount and extent of supervision they can exercise is not at all satisfactory—certainly not as satisfactory or as effective as the probation officer would desire. It is most effective and most satisfactory where there is full co-operation, with a person placed on probation and, in particular, between those juveniles whose parents are co-operating with the probation officer. But where in fact there is a greater degree of discipline, where there is a requirement for a greater degree of training, then the probation officer's work is by no means as effective as it could be, and should he. That makes it difficult for the courts when there is a decision to be made as to whether or not a person shall go to borstal or to a detention centre, or whether an extension of probation should be allowed. More often than not, in
74
the courts with which I have been associated, one has hesitated because the individuals themselves require a greater degree of discipline and greater degree of guidance than the probation officer has time to give.
Therefore, I hope that the Government will agree to establish these training centres in order that while the person is on probation, or while the officers are carrying on with young offenders of 15 or 16 while they are also carrying on their daily task of work as one of the community, the offenders can have this compulsory further education and guidance which will keep them to a degree of discipline which will be effective—more effective, I believe, than sending to a detention centre or to borstal. Therefore I support the Amendment.
6.20 p.m.
BARONESS ELLIOT OF HARWOOD: My Lords, I supported the noble Earl, Lord Longford, with great enthusiasm on the Committee stage when this question of these training centres was first brought forward by noble Lords opposite, and I remain just as interested and as enthusiastic about trying to make a scheme of this kind as when we had the debate on the Committee stage. Unfortunately, one can never get ahead as quickly as one would like. Through circumstances over which I have no control, the first meeting of the Committee will be only towards the end of next week, and therefore I cannot report to your Lordships' House that we have already begun meeting. All I can say is that I have been in close contact with the secretariat at the Home Office, and have roughly sketched out a plan which I must naturally put before my colleagues before I know whether or not they think this is a good idea. Therefore, I cannot give you any further information, beyond saying that we shall get down to work as quickly as we possibly can when the secretariat is ready.
As the noble Earl, Lord Longford said, Amendment No. 11 differs from No. 12 in the question of whether or not these training centres shall be subject to a probation order. That is one of the problems and one of the subjects which the Committee will naturally investigate. As I understand it, the noble Lord, Lord Lindgren, is strongly

75
in favour of probation and of these centres being subject to the probation order. That may well be the right way of doing it, but I must approach the issue when we have met and discussed it with a variety of people whom we shall ask to give evidence. I have also been thinking of what we shall do about staffing these centres and, as the noble Baroness Lady Wootton of Abinger, pointed out, what kind of curriculum they shall have. I think it is going to be very important to take as wide a range of opinion as we can possibly get. I hope it will not take too long, but it will take a little time, because the kind of people we want to discuss it with are very busy and we shall have to take them as they can come.
Then there is the question of whether the centres should be paid for by the local authorities, or centrally controlled and paid for. I have not made up my mind; I do not know what would be the best way to do it. I do not know whether we can put in this Bill a clause such as contained in Amendment No. 11 which would enable one to go ahead if and when our report is accepted by the Advisory Council, because we are only a sub-committee of the Avisory Council. The Advisory Council would need to meet and accept or not our report and we should put it to the Government immediately afterwards. That will take a little time, but I hope not long, because it is a simple case, and we are going ahead as fast as possible. If it is possible to put something into this Bill which will enable us to, as it were, take time by the forelock, and be able to implement any recommendations which my Committee might make straight away, that would be a very good plan. If it is not possible, I hope that the Government will be able to make some suggestions or facilities for getting the report implemented when it comes out.
The noble Earl, Lord Longford, is quite right in saying those of us who are interested in this subject and involved in it, as I think all those who are present to-day in your Lordships' House are, are most anxious that as little delay as possible should eventuate as a result of my Committee and its findings. I can only assure your Lordships that I shall do my very best to see the thing goes
76
as speedily as possible. I should hope that we should not be held back by having to wait for further legislation. On the other hand, I realise that putting legislation into a Bill before one knows whether or not it is going to cover the necessary detail is rather an unusual thing to do, and also one which may not exactly fit the case.
I simply do not know. It seemed to me that Amendment No. 11 was the one which would fit the case, but it is also true that we have not made up our minds, because we do not know whether or not the wider aspect of No. 11, which imposes the probation order, is the right one. All I would assure your Lordships is that there is a good deal of ground to be covered; there are a great many questions to be asked; there is a lot of evidence to be collected. And if the Report is to be worth anything I think, as the noble Baroness, Lady Wootton of Abinger, rightly said, we hope to get some original ideas. Original ideas are very hard to come by. I do not know that I have any particular ideas, but I am hoping to be able to collect some people who have, in which case we shall be able to make a contribution of a new kind, inspired by Sir Basil Henriques and those who, like himself, have worked for so many years in this field, to do something new.
We have at this moment someone in the United States who is looking at the centres there which have been working for some time. I do not know whether that pattern will suit us. I have not seen the man who has been in Massachusetts; I am not sure whether or not he is home. But he has been looking at it. He is a member of our Committee, and he has been looking at the centre in Boston. Whether it will prove to be one from which we can get some ideas I simply do not know, but undoubtedly where something of this kind is working it is a good plan to get somebody to look at it and come back with his point of view. I just wanted to assure your Lordships that we shall begin swiftly, and we shall do our best to produce something in the nature of an acceptable and valuable report; and I hope that, as a result, we may be able to go ahead. If it is not possible to incorporate this Amendment in the Bill, for reasons which I have mentioned—namely that we do not yet know what in fact we are

77
going to report—I only hope that something may be granted to us if and when the Government accept our report.
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, I hope I do not read too much into the noble and learned Viscount's suggestion that we should have one debate and two Divisions. There are one or two things I should like to say. First of all with regard to the contribution from the noble Baroness, Lady Elliot of Harwood, I appreciate her difficulty in regard to the sitting of the Committee, and naturally it is impossible to know what the recommendations of that Committee will be. But I would point out that both these proposed Amendments suggest permissive powers for the Home Secretary. They do not say that he "shall" make regulations; they say that he "may" make regulations. It would appear, therefore, that neither of these Amendments is likely to be in conflict with the kind of advice which the noble Baroness's Committee may give after their detailed examination.
The one point I want to put to the noble and learned Viscount follows up what my noble friend Lord Lindgren said about the probation service. It will be within the noble Viscount's recollection that the Lord Chancellor repeated an assurance given by the Home Secretary, that the provisions of this Bill relating to after-care will not be implemented until the probation service is of sufficient strength to carry the extra burden. But with regard to these two Amendments, obviously if either were accepted—certainly if Amendment No. 11 were accepted—it would mean additional, and I hope welcome, duties for the probation service. I should hope, too, that that would not be a consideration which would in any way weigh with the Government in leaning against acceptance of this particular Amendment.
There is a difficulty, which I put at the earlier stage in the Bill, in the probation service with regard to doubts which exist with reference to any Report which may, or will, be made by the Morison Committee in respect of that service, That Committee has been sitting since May, 1959, some two years, and at present the probation service is in a position of particular difficulty because of pressure within the service to submit a
78
further salary claim in view of the delay by the Morison Committee. I wonder whether, not in replying to this particular debate, but before we finish with the Report stage, the Government would be in a position to say whether the Morison Committee is likely to be able to make an Interim Report with special reference to the probation service. If that were so, it might prevent difficulties which now otherwise seem likely to arise. I hope that the noble and learned Viscount, if not now, will be able to consider that particular point at any rate before we finish the Report stage of the Bill.
6.32 p.m.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, I should like to thank all those who have taken part in this debate, and particularly my noble friend Lady Elliot of Harwood, for telling us how she is getting on. I am not sure that what I now have to say will be particularly satisfactory to the noble Earl who moved this Amendment, but I hope that I may be acquitted of any desire whatever either to delay what may be a most desirable reform or to hide behind what he means by "drafting difficulties". I start with the same position as I had before, on the Committee stage. I think this is almost certainly a very good idea, and whether or not training centres of this kind will have quite the wide prospects which the noble Earl looks for in them, I think that they are almost certainly going to be a valuable addition to our system for treating offenders. But of course this is really an additional reason for not getting off on the wrong foot. If you are going to launch a good idea with a favourable breeze, it is important that you should get it right, because nothing is more disastrous for a good idea than that you should get it slightly wrong when you start: it gets it a bad name and then it fails for reasons quite extrinsic to its proper merits.
I start with this proposition: that my right honourable friend the Home Secretary referred this idea, about which he feels at least as enthusiastic as I do, to the sub-committee of which my noble friend. Lady Elliot of Harwood is the chairman. He did so, not in order to avoid getting things done (which I am told is sometimes the case with committees), but in order to get things done;

79
and I think that having heard from my noble friend, the House will agree that we chose the right person under whom to get things done. But, if the noble Earl will allow me to say so, drafting difficulties are of two kinds. I quite agree with his scorn for those who allow the inability to find words to express what you really want to do, to hold up action. I think it is the business of draftsmen to find words to express ideas which are clearly held. Sometimes it is more difficult than others, but after all it is their trade, and a failure on the part of Government draftsmen to find a form of words is something for which I think Governments ought to apologise if ever it happens.
But drafting, difficulties are sometimes of the other kind. You must make up your mind what you want to do before the draftsman can find any words at all, and it really is not his fault, if he is faced with a project on which policy is imprecise, if he then says, "I really cannot translate what you have said into words, because your idea is not made up of anything like concrete thoughts." I am in this dilemma upon this point; I do not conceal it from the House; it is the dilemma that I was in before, and further consideration has not really removed my difficulty. When you appoint a committee, in principle the worst possible thing you can do is to legislate in anticipation of its findings. Almost anything that you say will be to prejudice the findings of that committee. To legislate first and then to inquire by committee afterwards is not a satisfactory way of procedure. I know that the noble Earl opposite has the idea that by permissive or enabling legislation you can get round this difficulty. My difficulty is that I am not quite sure that he is right about this. I want just to put to him some of the points which give me cause to doubt whether he is right about it.
To begin with, whatever you do in the formation of training centres you are going to curtail the liberty of the subject to a quite considerable extent. The l3oston Centre, which is the main existing exemplar, curtails the liberty of the subject for between 100 and 150 hours of compulsory attendance. Can you do that by regulation? Both Amendments of the noble Earl give the Secretary of State
80
power to provide that by statutory instrument. Ought we to limit the right of liberty of the subject, in an entirely new form of penal treatment, by regulation? Ought it not to be by Act of Parliament? This may be a very good idea, but it may not be sufficiently good to justify conflicting with Magna Charta. I think one ought to think about that point carefully before one goes in for regulations limiting the right of liberty of the subject to this extent. Assume, however, that one is going to answer that question affirmatively—that is, that one is going to legislate by statutory instrument, because such is the delay in the legislative programme that it may be five years before you can legislate at all, which I think is the argument presented—even assuming that, there are still a number of decisions which I think are really most difficult to leave in the air, though if they are not left in the air it prejudices the findings of the Committee.
Take the fundamental question to which reference has been made by my noble friend and by noble Lords opposite—namely, are you, or are you not, going to tie this to the probation service? The noble Earl, Lord Longford, expresses his preference for Amendment No. 11, which does. But he says that he would take Amendment No. 12, which expressly writes into the Act that it does not matter whether the convicted person is on probation or not. But, of course, if you do one or the other you have prejudiced the findings of the Committee. My noble friend told the House that she and her Committee have not made up their minds whether it is to be probation or not probation. But if we accept Amendment No. 11, we are saying in advance that it does not matter what they think, this scheme is to be tied to probation. If we accept No. 12 we equally say it does not matter very much what she does, because the Act of Parliament will use the words, "whether or not the person is on probation". This is prejudicing the findings of the Committee.
Or take, for instance, the findings or the recommendation of the Henriques plan that an adverse report may lead to a period of actual detention. This was one of the distinctive features of the Henriques plan. It was that the offender could again be brought before the court at the end of his period of

81
training, with a report on his response to training, and be dealt with accordingly. If the report were good he would be conditionally discharged; if it were only fair he might be continued on probation; if it were bad the court might decide to sentence him to a period of custodial training in an appropriate institution. Are we going to accept that or not? I myself should be very reluctant indeed to accept that the Secretary of State ought to have power by regulation, under either Amendment 11 or Amendment 12, to make such an order, because this would hardly differ in principle from Regulation 18B. But if, on the other hand, we are going to accept it—and it may be a valuable suggestion—surely we should have put it in the Act of Parliament, and we cannot do that without anticipating the finding of the report.
Take the question which my noble friend raised. The centres may be, it is thought, centres which will be run by the Home Office under my right honourable friend, or they may be run by local authorities. You cannot really leave simply to a statutory instrument to decide whether it is going to be one or the other.
Or take the question of whether it is to extend to girls or boys. We have spent an hour and a half this afternoon arguing whether a detention centre (I think it was) was to apply to girls as well as boys. Are we going to leave it in this case to the Secretary of State and so avoid all Parliamentary discussion? If we are, we have wasted one and a half hours this afternoon. Then take the age range. I think Henriques suggested between 17 and 21. The Boston Centre has taken the radically different one of 12 to 17.
A NOBLE LORD: Fourteen.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: I beg your Lordships' pardon; at any rate, a different range. Is that going to be left entirely in the air, or is it to be left to statutory instrument? I cannot believe that this is what Parliament will ultimately decide, because I know that, whatever my noble friend decides, noble Lords opposite, and it may be noble Lords on this side of the House, will want to discuss it in the only way in which you can discuss details—namely, by amending that which the Government propose, as they are doing at this very moment. But they will not be able to
82
achieve that by statutory instrument. On the contrary, they will have to take it or leave it as a whole.
Is this a responsible or sensible way to act? This is a question I must seriously ask the House. It is not that I want to hold things up or because I am unduly impressed with lawyers' or draftsmen's points. You must, if you get the draftsman to draft anything, know what you want to achieve and how you are to achieve it. I know the enthusiasm which the noble Earl, Lord Longford, feels for this plan and what is thought by those who support it outside the House, and the very wide measure of support it has. What are we to do? I want to take the noble Earl, so far as I can, into my confidence in the matter, and I should like to make this suggestion to him, now that he has heard what I feel about this proposal. I feel that I should not be giving the House very good advice if I advised it to accept the Amendment, and I should like to ask whether he would not be prepared to consider this suggestion. There is, of course, another stage of this Bill, the Third Reading, in which in our House we can propose Amendments, so he would not have lost anything, even now, by withdrawing his Amendment. I should like to ask whether he would not care to enter into consultation with those who advise my right honourable friend, and it may be perhaps into consultation with my noble friend the Baroness who is chairman of the sub-committee.
There would be, at any rate, one of two or three possibilities. He may be persuaded that this is not, for all the arguments he has used, the best occasion or the best way to legislate. It may be, on the other hand, that he can persuade my right honourable friend's advisers that it is possible on Third Reading to put in an Amendment which will avoid the difficulties. Or perhaps he can persuade them that the difficulties which I have been enumerating can be overcome. Alternatively, I would frankly say that I myself feel convinced that, supposing he waits until Lady Elliot of Harwood's Committee has reported in due course (which will be, as I gathered from her speech, some time in the autumn), we might consider whether we cannot find legislative time next Session to deal with this matter separately from Criminal Justice but as an additional

83
piece of legislation. I know that my right honourable friend would be anxious to give Government time for this. There are more ways than one of introducing legislation of this kind, especially legislation in which more than one Member of your Lordships' House outside the Government has taken an interest and has played a responsible part.
I want only to put that suggestion before the noble Earl. I hope he does not think that I have been unsympathetic in this matter. But what I feel is that, in the form in which he has proposed this very wide power of legislation by statutory instrument, it is not in the end going to give a fair chance to what may be quite as good an idea as many Members of the House believe and as I myself am disposed to think.
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: My Lords, I do not think anybody could have called the noble Viscount unsympathetic. I thought that he stretched himself, so to speak, to the uttermost to show good will and to see whether we cannot continue in harmony together without anything so rough and rude as a Division. There was one point of importance which he raised which surprised me a little. It would not be decisive either way, but I was a little surprised that he put it in quite the way he did. He said that if we accepted No. 12, that would really be prejudicing the decisions of Lady Elliot of Harwood's Committee, because it would really make it impossible after that for the Government to tie the scheme to probation. If there is something in the drafting which produces that result, I am, of course, ready to alter the drafting. But I should have thought that it was not beyond the wit of draftsmen to draft a clause which left the question open on whether it was or was not to be tied to probation—which left that to the Secretary of State to settle when the time came. Under Amendment No. 12, that issue would be open and would be settled by regulation after Lady Elliot of Harwood's Committee had reported. Unless I missed the noble Viscount's point, or unless I am confused on this point. I would adhere to the general line of argument—
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, may I deal with the point? It is perfectly fair. I think that, in its present form, Amendment No. 12 does prejudice the issue, because it states in plain terms "whether or not". So my difficulty would not be entirely removed by changing the drafting, although I would concede that if a change were made it would affect the terms of what I have said. My difficulty would then be that you would simply leave the Secretary of State free to impose penal treatment of a kind unspecified in any detail and not even tied to probation. I feel quite sure that if you did that, you would do something which Parliament would not be prepared to pass.
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Viscount. As he is aware, any statutory instrument made under this proposal would be subject to annulment pursuant to a Resolution in either House; so I should have thought that the public were protected there.
As regards his general argument, in defence of Lady Elliot of Harwood's Committee's findings and the Government's closer consideration, and that it is very difficult to put anything at all in the Bill, I will not reply to that, or try to cover his points in detail. But I would remind him of what has been done under, for example, the Prison Act, 1952. In the Prison Act, 1952, Section 43 (1), headed Remand centres, detention centres and Borstal institutions, this is what we are told. Detention centres are to be:
"places in which persons not less than fourteen but under twenty-one years of age who are ordered to be detained in such centres under the Criminal Justice Act, 1948, may be kept for short periods under discipline suitable to persons of their age and description."
That is what we are told there. That was nine years ago, and we are still very uncertain about the intentions of the Government with regard to these detention centres. So I am afraid we should certainly not be creating a precedent if we put down an Amendment which gave the Secretary of State very wide powers in the penal field, because nothing could really be wider or (if I may say so) vaguer than the terms of reference for these detention centres which were set up all those years ago.

85
I will not continue the argument. We all seem to be nearly at one in desiring to see these centres set up. The question really comes down to the one to which the noble Viscount primarily addressed himself: can we put in anything which, on the one hand, avoids the danger of prejudicing Lady Elliot of Harwood's Committee and, on the other hand, is not so wide as to be dangerous to the liberties of the subject? For reasons which I explained earlier, I am convinced that we must try to put in something on this occasion, for I feel that it would be too dangerous to delay. As I stated earlier, in the circumstances I should prefer that we should take our first stand on Amendment 11, which embodies the well-worked-out idea, while leaving a good deal still general and flexible.
The noble Viscount asked me whether I should be ready to take part in the discussions before the Third Reading. I am always open to discussions at any time, but I cannot, I am afraid, hope for
Resolved in the negative, and Amendment disagreed to accordingly.
7.0 p.m.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, I do not know if the noble Lord will tell me, as a matter of courtesy, whether he is going to move the other Amendment?
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: I am going to move it, and then allow it to be negatived.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 10, to insert the following new clause:
very much from these discussions. The Government have had a month, and they have been thinking very hard about it. I cannot believe that the Home Office will 'be affected by my arguments in the next few days if they have not been already affected by what the noble Viscount and others have said to them and by their own very great powers of thought. If I was rude about the Home Office on an earlier Amendment, I hasten to withdraw now any suggestion that they are not extremely highminded and able people. I do not think discussions between now and Third Reading would convince the Home Office: they certainly would not convince me. In the circumstances, while thanking the noble Viscount for a particularly courteous and careful reply, I wish to press this Amendment to a Division.
On Question, Whether the said Amenment shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 19; Not-Contents, 33.
Training centres
(".—(1) The Secretary of State may by regulations made by statutory instrument provide for the establishment of training centres, that is to say places in which persons not less than fourteen but under twenty-one years of age (whether or not probation orders have been made in respect of such persons) may be required to attend, and in which such training and instruction shall be given as will conduce to their reformation and the prevention of crime.
(2) Any statutory instrument made under this section shall be subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of either House of Parliament.")—(The Earl of Longford.)
LORD SILKIN: My Lords, may I say a word on this Amendment? Personally, I am very sorry, having got so near on both sides, that we had to come to a Division on this matter. The noble and learned Viscount made what I thought was a reasonable reply, although I did not accept everything he said. I do not think, for instance, that it would have been beyond the wit of man to draft some kind of Amendment which would meet the particular difficulties he raised. However, I hope the Government's mind is still not closed on this matter, and that between now and Third Reading they will consider whether something can be done; and, if not, that the suggestion that legislation might be introduced at a later stage after the Committee have reported will still be considered by the Government.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, certainly the latter will still be considered. I had hoped that the discussions which I have indicated would have been fruitful. I am sorry that the noble Lord opposite did not have that hope. I will not say that our mind is closed; that would not be fair. Our mind has moved substantially in favour of the arguments which I was putting forward on the earlier Amendment, and although I should not like to say that our mind was at all closed on it, I think some new
88
factor would now have to enter the situation.
On Question, Amendment negatived.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, I beg to move that further proceedings be adjourned.
Moved, That further proceedings be adjourned.—(Viscount Hailsham.)
On Question, Motion agreed to, and the Report stage adjourned accordingly.

  COLOUR TELEVISION
  COLOUR TELEVISION